# Comparing Floyd Mayweather Jr to Sugar Ray Leonard



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

...


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

Castillo
Cotto
Corrales
Hatton


Doesnt really compare very well does it.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr. Brain said:


> Leonard's best achievements were against Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler.
> 
> Who is FMJ's
> 
> ...


Chuck Kalule in there as well.

Floyd's doesn't have a single win that matches up to Kalule, and that's not because I'm underrating Floyd's comp'.

He doesn't match up at all with Leonard. The quality of their opposition is not even comparable.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Stone Rose said:


> Castillo
> Cotto
> Corrales
> Hatton
> ...


Duran=Castillo 
Benitez=Cotto 
Hearns=Corrales
Hagler=Hatton

Like that or interchangable?


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Chuck Kalule in there as well.
> 
> Floyd's doesn't have a single win that matches up to Kalule, and that's not because I'm underrating Floyd's comp'.
> 
> He doesn't match up at all with Leonard. The quality of their opposition is not even comparable.


Kalule was good and undefeated until Ray KO'd him. But his only notable career wins were Sumbu Kalambay and Sugar Ray Seals.

Agree otherwise SRL>>>>FMJ...SRL too much of everything for FMJ.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr. Brain said:


> Duran=Castillo
> Benitez=Cotto
> Hearns=Corrales
> Hagler=Hatton
> ...


It doesn't matter what order you put it in. This thread is not worth continuing with. There is NO reasonable comparison that can be made.

If you'd said:

-Howard
-Lalonde
-Green
-Price
-Shields

Even Kalule (Castillo might be comparable in stature in that respect) then you'd have a discussion.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr. Brain said:


> Kalule was good and undefeated until Ray KO'd him. But his only notable career wins were Sumbu Kalambay and Sugar Ray Seals.
> 
> Agree otherwise SRL>>>>FMJ...SRL too much of everything for FMJ.


Don't give me a summary of his career son. You've just boxrec'd that.

You know nothing of the era nor Kalule's opponents; you deciding which wins were notable for him means nothing because you have no knowledge. Get fucked.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> It doesn't matter what order you put it in. This thread is not worth continuing with. There is NO reasonable comparison that can be made.
> 
> If you'd said:
> 
> ...


I'm glad I am not the only one on the SRL train.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Don't give me a summary of his career son. You've just boxrec'd that.
> 
> You know nothing of the era nor Kalule's opponents; you deciding which wins were notable for him means nothing because you have no knowledge. Get fucked.


Why the hosility, seems out of place somehow.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Aldama > Todorov 
Aldama > Aragon

Jus' sayin' 

Floyd's top opposition is shameful. Sugar Ray Leonard fought guys who are MASTERS of their respective styles.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr. Brain said:


> Why the hosility, seems out of place somehow.


Because you're making assumptions based on nothing and telling me as if I'm not taking something into consideration. You deserve hostility. Anyone does who makes their mind up on something without having any clue what they're talking about.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Aldama > Todorov
> Aldama > Aragon
> 
> Jus' sayin'
> ...


Aldama was an incredible amateur though. Beat Mugabi in '80!

It's a big possibility Ray would not have won the Gold had Kalule gone though. The Uganda team in the mid-70s is one of the greatest ever assembled. Including the US team of Montreal.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Because you're making assumptions based on nothing and telling me as if I'm not taking something into consideration. You deserve hostility. Anyone does who makes their mind up on something without having any clue what they're talking about.


Blah blah blah and blah blah blah!, so you're going to flame me? Sorry you are so frustrated and friendless that you have to take it out on internet strangers. I'm tired of your negative vibes, shove off!


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benitez and......*Kalule's *combined records when Ray beat them = 240-3-3. 
Ray went 6-1-1 4 KO's total against these 5. Truly amazing accomplishment.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr. Brain said:


> Blah blah blah and blah blah blah!, so you're going to flame me? Sorry you are so frustrated and friendless that you have to take it out on internet strangers. I'm tired of your negative vibes, shove off!


Take a break. Have a Kitkat.


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## jaymon112 (May 24, 2013)




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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Wow that's fucking harsh @Flea Man everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's not like he was trolling. Who had the palm slapping Kalule beaten up until that point? Kudo? I think little of Alvarez and even I'd have that victory above Kalule. Mayweather certainly hasn't beaten better opposition anyway you slice it, but regardless he beat them all and in emphatic fashion. Cotto, Marquez even the versions of De La Hoya (just destroyed Mayorga) and Mosley (just destroyed Margarito) is nothing to scoff at, especially considering collectivley they won about what? 10 rounds?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> I think little of Alvarez and even I'd have that victory above Kalule.


Then your opinion will never be worth anything to me ever again. I have blocked you.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Lulz someone has sand in their vagina.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Aldama was an incredible amateur though. Beat Mugabi in '80!
> 
> It's a big possibility Ray would not have won the Gold had Kalule gone though. The Uganda team in the mid-70s is one of the greatest ever assembled. Including the US team of Montreal.


Aldama also stopped McCallum in '79 :yep


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Aldama was an incredible amateur though. Beat Mugabi in '80!
> 
> It's a big possibility Ray would not have won the Gold had Kalule gone though. The Uganda team in the mid-70s is one of the greatest ever assembled. Including the US team of Montreal.


Yeah they were pretty good. Mugabi really did hold his own in there with Aldama and landed some big shots, including one which really did snap Aldama's head back. Two big punchers.

The 70's were a good time for the Poles too. Where have they disappeared to?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yeah they were pretty good.


They were incredible.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Well this thread sure ended abruptly :rofl :rofl

@Bogotazo @PityTheFool


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Mr. Brain said:


> Leonard's best achievements were against Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler.
> 
> Who is FMJ's
> 
> ...


I guess you're trying to duplicate the success of the recent, identical thread that went 40 pages.

Good luck. :cheers


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Mr. Brain said:


> Leonard's best achievements were against Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler.
> 
> Who is FMJ's
> 
> ...


Well, who _could_ Mayweather have fought that would equal those 4 on SRL's resume? Pacquiao in '09-'10 is the only one I can think of.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yeah they were pretty good. Mugabi really did hold his own in there with Aldama and landed some big shots, including one which really did snap Aldama's head back. Two big punchers.
> 
> The 70's were a good time for the Poles too. *Where have they disappeared to?*


 Lennox Lewis Kayoed the last good Pole.


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## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Chuck Kalule in there as well.
> 
> Floyd's doesn't have a single win that matches up to Kalule, and that's not because I'm underrating Floyd's comp'.
> 
> He doesn't match up at all with Leonard. The quality of their opposition is not even comparable.


I thing you are overestimating Kalule a bit. He was good, but he wasn't great. Floyd's resume doesn't not look as good as Ray's because it isn't. He has some nice wins, though. Genaro Hernandez was a good win, Castillo is underrated, in my book. Corrales was young and undefeated. Hatton was prime and fresh. Cotto was also a very good win. He has fought other good fighters and made it look easy. Leonard fought greater fighters, though, no doubt.

I want put Kalule on Cotto's level, with Kalule being the better boxer, but Cotto having more power.They are both sencond-tier fighters.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Sister Sledge said:


> I thing you are overestimating Kalule a bit. He was good, but he wasn't great. Floyd's resume doesn't not look as good as Ray's because it isn't. He has some nice wins, though. Genaro Hernandez was a good win, Castillo is underrated, in my book. Corrales was young and undefeated. Hatton was prime and fresh. Cotto was also a very good win. He has fought other good fighters and made it look easy. Leonard fought greater fighters, though, no doubt.
> 
> *I want put Kalule on Cotto's level, with Kalule being the better boxer, but Cotto having more power.They are both sencond-tier fighters.*


Why? Because he's hyping him up to justify his ridiculous opinion? Saying that not a single victory matches up to Kalule which is bullshit. Kalule's best and only good win is Kalambay (close fight) all the best fighters he fought bar him he lost to handily (All KO's). H2H he doesn't fair up well either IMO, while clearly very skilled and with good footwork he had so little physical tools. Speed, power and chin were all average or below not to mention a lot of the time he palm slapped as opposed to actually punching.

Additionally to this Kalule up until the point he fought Leonard had never faced anybody of any real quality, all European fighters who had no impact on the Welterweight scene during that time. It was a stereotype that European based fighters all lost when they came to America.


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## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Why? Because he's hyping him up to justify his ridiculous opinion? Saying that not a single victory matches up to Kalule which is bullshit. Kalule's best and only good win is Kalambay (close fight) all the best fighters he fought bar him he lost to handily (All KO's). H2H he doesn't fair up well either IMO, while clearly very skilled and with good footwork he had so little physical tools. Speed, power and chin were all average or below not to mention a lot of the time he palm slapped as opposed to actually punching.


This was a misstype. I meant to say that I WOULD put him at Cotto's level. He's a fighter that would give anyone a good fight but not be good enough to win. Also, you can't base your opinion of a professional fighter off of their amateur accomplishments. Some people do that here.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Sister Sledge said:


> This was a misstype. I meant to say that I WOULD put him at Cotto's level. He's a fighter that would give anyone a good fight but not be good enough to win. *Also, you can't base your opinion of a professional fighter off of their amateur accomplishments. Some people do that here.*


So much this. The two aren't interchangeable and I don't care how good the opposition was during their amateur run it cannot be compared. Audley Harrison got the greatest honour there is in amateur boxing and as a professional he's basically a joke.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well this thread sure ended abruptly :rofl :rofl
> 
> @Bogotazo @PityTheFool


It's getting a bit "meh"and let's be honest,you cleared the matter up recently.

I suspect there's a bit of Floyd-bashing going on.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Fact that Maxie says Kalule's 'only good win' is Kalambay only demonstrates his lack of knowledge. Really pisses me off when people say I'm getting it wrong when they haven't got a fucking clue what they're talking about. The fucking cheek of it. 

And the Kalambay fight was a robbery. You don't know that from reading Boxrec.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

@Sister Sledge makes some very fair points.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Fact that Maxie says Kalule's 'only good win' is Kalambay only demonstrates his lack of knowledge. Really pisses me off when people say I'm getting it wrong when they haven't got a fucking clue what they're talking about. The fucking cheek of it.
> 
> And the Kalambay fight was a robbery. You don't know that from reading Boxrec.


How would you know I said that when you blocked me? I said the fight was close in spite of the fact on boxrec the judges scores are clearly in Kalule's favour. How do I know this? Because I've seen it.

Please educate my ignorant ass and divulge on Kalule's win which are good enough to be placed above say Marquez' because as you yourself said "Floyd's doesn't have a single win that matches up to Kalule". I'm more than happy to be corrected.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

'Cause Sister Sledge quoted you. 

And I only saw the above post because I assumed you may be asking that. 

Apart from Marquez being dragged up two weights and Kalule being at his weight? Apart from Kalule being a reigning champion? Apart from Kalule not being smaller than Ray and not a stylistic disadvantage? Apart from Ray making the weight as stipulated? 

Also, I will clarify that I'm not making out that Kalule is a GREAT fighter. Only that for a multitude of reasons that was one of Ray's best wins.

After that, Kalule struggled with the weight and fell to bits. He had a brief resurgance at middleweight once he finally went back there (being competitive with Sumbu is impressive in itself, dropping him as well, although I felt it was an awful decision) 

No, Kalule is not an ATG. But what pissed me off was saying the Canelo win was better. That kid is all hype and didn't have a shred of the skill and ability that Kalule had, hey are niht and day as operators go.

Do not bother to reply to this, because I will not be looking at anymore of your posts.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

:lol: Wow, someone that sensitive and temperamental is allowed to be a mod. 

Reply to this or not I don't care but what you said is piss fucking poor as is the fact you banned Mr Brain because he didn't agree with your ridiculous claims. I asked you to divulge on Kalule's WINS that places Leonard's victory over him above a victory over Marquez and you answer regarding stuff about weight. Although true, Mayweather had been off for 2 years and came back to shut out Marquez so badly saying it was 12-0 would not be far off. 

Also being technically good can only take you so far if everything else is lacking. Malik Scott might be the most skilled Heavyweight around today, yet even in a piss poor excuse for a Heavyweight field he's still basically a high end journeymen, because like Kalule he had no physical gifts. His lack of power, speed or chin means he's no better than the Canelo victory who was naturally MUCH bigger than Mayweather, stronger, way younger, durable and a good puncher. This coming from someone who thinks little of Canelo.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Ironically I actually watched Kalule................

I don't know enough about his overall resume to make a decision in regards to if he should be ranked 'above Cotto'.
But he will beat the living shit out of Cotto at 154.
It won't even be close. Even his lack of power won't be enough to stop him from tkoing Cotto.
You guys should really watch his fights leading up to Leonard. I think he was undefeated heading in and some of those performances were incredible from a technical and styles stand point. Great counter puncher............
He will dominant 154 Cotto 12-0.. Cotto would not win 1 fucking round at 154.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Benes and Kudo were both very good fighters. Equal to say, Rhodes and Trout, only that Kalule schooled both. 

Kalule sparked a top ten ranked fighter in the time in Ho Joo in two rounds. 

I was voted to be a MOD, not allowed. I have offered to step down MANY times. I banned Mr.Brain because he constantly posts shit. It was only for a few hours to wind him up. 

Fact you're comparing Kalule to Scott and saying that Kalule may well have only been a high level journeyman is pathetic. He is stronger than you give him credit for, and he actually showed a lot of skill against Leonard. His chin was not that bad. Not high level, but not glass. Certainly never got stung by a blown up lightweight like lil Cotto.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl :rofl


Yup, this might turn out to be almost as good as "Who da fuck is Cervantes?" discussion.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Yup, this might turn out to be almost as good as "Who da fuck is Cervantes?" discussion.


I'd love to read that.

Genuine thoughts on Kalule, with no jokes? Just so I don't come across as crazy. Unless of course you don't agree.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Benes Vs Cotto would actually be a helluva fun fight!


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Benes and Kudo were both very good fighters. Equal to say, Rhodes and Trout, only that Kalule schooled both.
> 
> Kalule sparked a top ten ranked fighter in the time in Ho Joo in two rounds.
> 
> ...


Worth remembering too that Kalule's promoter had to take the WBA to court around six times to get his shot because the WBA knew Kudo was a big earner who filled arenas and knew there was a good chance Kalule would beat him easy.A Ugandan in Denmark wasn't so appealing and much like Hamed being kept safe from Marquez by the WBO,the WBA knew that mandatory could bite them on the ass eventually.
Kalule a journeyman? Pffft! :rofl


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## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

The reason why Mayweathers record is so impressive is because he is so dominant over good to very good fighters. Ray has had better opposition, but he wasn't as dominant. One thing also, Ray never really won the 175 lb. title fairly, as he was fighting at a 168lb catchweight and admitted to putting several roles of quaters in his sweatpants when he weighed in for the fight. He cheated to stay light and quick. 

In a WW fight, I would pick Ray because he was bigger, quicker and much busier than Floyd, but I think Floyd is more skilled and has better ring generalship and a much higher boxing IQ. Wouldn't want to say who is the better fighter. They were both great.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I know amateur doesn't equate to pro success but Kalule was THE World champ and very highly regarded. Skill level was off the chain.

Not really a fair comparison comparing him to a great gym boxer like Malik Scott, though I see what Maxie was trying to say.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> I think Floyd is more skilled and has better ring generalship and a much higher boxing IQ.


That's because he hasn't fought as good opposition, as you said.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I'd love to read that.


It's in this thread:

"Sugar Ray Leonard is okay with people thinking that Floyd is better than him"

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...people-thinking-that-Floyd-is-better-than-him

Tilang totally convinced me Cervantes was shit.



Flea Man said:


> Genuine thoughts on Kalule, with no jokes? Just so I don't come across as crazy. Unless of course you don't agree.





Hands of Iron said:


> He was also certainly more technically skilled than anybody Floyd's beat at the times fought, particularly in the footwork department.





Lester1583 said:


> Kalule is simply better than any fighter Floyd ever beat at the times fought.
> 
> One of (if not the) Leonard's most impressive offensive displays against an elite fighter.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Not just me then.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Yup, this might turn out to be almost as good as "Who da fuck is Cervantes?" discussion.


:rofl


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :rofl


I just read through that. Good work Sir. I'm proud of you. A shoutout for Mamby (whose jab would cause Floyd some real problems IMO, even if he wouldn't beat him) made me smile.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Ray was lucky to get the opportunity to fight the greatest guys of his era in Duran,Hearns,Benitez,Hagler. But Floyd has had the chance to fight another great and for whatever reason it has not happened. Beating Canelo and Cotto is good, but in 20 years no one will really see that as great. He has to fight Manny.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I just read through that. Good work Sir. I'm proud of you. A shoutout for Mamby (whose jab would cause Floyd some real problems IMO, even if he wouldn't beat him) made me smile.


(sun)


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> One thing also, Ray never really won the 175 lb. title fairly, as he was fighting at a 168lb catchweight and admitted to putting several roles of quaters in his sweatpants when he weighed in for the fight. He cheated to stay light and quick.


You won't find a single one of us rating that. Ray was well beyond his peak & Lalonde was a good fighter who even in hindsight claims he had no issue with the weight (and certainly didn't look anywhere near as horrendous as say, Dawson). It's an enjoyable one to watch and is another example of Leonard's elite ability as a finisher, but I couldn't really give a fuck less about him being a "five division" or "168/175 champion". Hell, there's nary a mention even of the Hagler fight from me - which by the way is a great, historical upset no matter how it's diced and revised - when discussing his in-ring abilities or greatness.


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## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> That's because he hasn't fought as good opposition, as you said.


One thing I must say. Floyd has fught skilled fighters and made them look ordinary. The only one who we have seen really push him is Castillo and Cotto. Every other fighter he beat pretty soundly. Floyd pposition was very good., and the way he beat them say's a lot about his skill level. To say that Floyd didn't have a fight a fighter as good as Kalule is complete bullshit and is overrating Kalule. Kalule was never a special fighter.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Benes and Kudo were both very good fighters. Equal to say, Rhodes and Trout, only that Kalule schooled both.
> 
> *Kalule sparked a top ten ranked fighter* in the time in Ho Joo in two rounds.


Actually feel this goes without mention a lot of times as it pertains to Leonard. It's always about his top scalps (as it damn well should be), but the amount of quantity he jammed into a 3+ year stretch was some straight up old school type shit and gives his claim to being a top 2-3 welter a little bit more backbone where cleaning out an era and what not is concerned. None of them particularly spectacular, but some decent fighters there. It doesn't get much better on paper or in the ring in terms of the ability of opposition as Hearns and Benitez, but it's still nice.

_*Sep 1978: Floyd Mayweather Sr (15-1) W-TKO10
Oct 1978: Randy Shields (31-4) W-UD10*
Dec 1978: Armando Muniz (44-13) W-RTD6
*Jan 1979: Johnny Gant (44-11) W-TKO8*
Feb 1979: Fernand Marcotte (48-8) W-TKO8
Mar 1979: Daniel Gonzalez (52-2) W-KO1
*Apr 1979: Adolfo Viruet (16-3) W-UD10*
May 1979: Marcos Geraldo (46-14) W-UD10
*Jun 1979: Tony Chiaverini (30-4) W-RTD4
Aug 1979: Pete Ranzany (45-3) W-TKO4
Sep 1979: Andy Price (28-5) W-KO1
Nov 1979: Wilfred Benitez (38-0) W-TKO15
Mar 1980: Dave Green (33-2) W-KO4
Jun 1980: Roberto Duran (71-1) L-UD15
Nov 1980: Roberto Duran (72-1) W-TKO8* 
Mar 1981: Larry Bonds (29-3) W-TKO10
*Jun 1981: Ayub Kalule (36-0) W-TKO9
Sep 1981: Thomas Hearns (32-0) W-TKO14
Feb 1982: Bruce Finch (28-3) W-TKO3*_

BOLD = Top 10 Rated at 147/154 at the time of bout

:conf

Imagine this guy doesn't damage his eye.


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## Casper Gomez (Sep 9, 2013)

Mr. Brain said:


> Leonard's best achievements were against Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler.
> 
> Who is FMJ's
> 
> ...


You forgot Kalule.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> One thing I must say. Floyd has fught skilled fighters and made them look ordinary. The only one who we have seen really push him is Castillo and Cotto. Every other fighter he beat pretty soundly. Floyd pposition was very good., and the way he beat them say's a lot about his skill level. To say that Floyd didn't have a fight a fighter as good as Kalule is complete bullshit and is overrating Kalule. Kalule was never a special fighter.


Well I disagree. You can see on film Kalule posseses skills that none of Floyd's opponents have had (at the time he faced them)

Your opinion is your opinion but I disagree. Kalule was not an ATG but he was a very skilled fighter. Kalule's opposition wasn't great, but up 'til Ray he utterly schooled them, and in 15 round championship contests no less. His amateur pedigree was literally second to none. The camp he came out of was one of the very best of all time (Kampala City Bombers) which is reflected in their results.

Kalule didn't live up to his potential, but he was highly ranked when Ray beat him, and a titlist in an era of two. And hung with Leonard as long as it went, so wasn't completely out of his depth. And later showed his skill whilst being (fairly) competitive with Kalambay, who WAS one of the most skilled fighters of the 80s hands down.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Casper Gomez said:


> You forgot Kalule.


:clap:


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## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Well I disagree. You can see on film Kalule posseses skills that none of Floyd's opponents have had (at the time he faced them)
> 
> Your opinion is your opinion but I disagree. Kalule was not an ATG but he was a very skilled fighter. Kalule's opposition wasn't great, but up 'til Ray he utterly schooled them, and in 15 round championship contests no less. His amateur pedigree was literally second to none. The camp he came out of was one of the very best of all time (Kampala City Bombers) which is reflected in their results.
> 
> Kalule didn't live up to his potential, but he was highly ranked when Ray beat him, and a titlist in an era of two. And hung with Leonard as long as it went, so wasn't completely out of his depth. And later showed his skill whilst being (fairly) competitive with Kalambay, who WAS one of the most skilled fighters of the 80s hands down.


Howard Davis was a great amateur fighters. So was Mark Breland and Tyrell Biggs. Let's not talk about amateur pedigrees. That doesn't mean anything in the pro's. The fight with Leonard showed that, while skilled, he was chinny. There is no doubt abut his skill level, but he was found out to be lacking in thiat fight. Leonard was not as dominant against boxers as he was against fighters who pressed him, and it took him time to figure them out.


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## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Also, calling Benes as good as Trut is laughable. Kudo and Seales were good wins, but I think Seales was blind in one eye by the time they fught and clearly on the downslide.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> Howard Davis was a great amateur fighters. So was Mark Breland and Tyrell Biggs. Let's not talk about amateur pedigrees. That doesn't mean anything in the pro's. The fight with Leonard showed that, while skilled, he was chinny. There is no doubt abut his skill level, but he was found out to be lacking in thiat fight. Leonard was not as dominant against boxers as he was against fighters who pressed him, and it took him time to figure them out.


Yes, and in the pro's Kalule was a champion who had wins over World ranked opposition at 154 and 160. What more do you want? He fared better than Davis and Biggs, that's not a fair comparison.

Ray Leonard showed he was chinny? Leonard showed yet again he was an offensive beast. Davey Moore hit Kalule lots and only Kalule's stamina failed him.

Do World class fighters only have impenetrable chins? Kalule's chin was not terrible. It just wasn't above average either.

People harp on about Floyd's adaptability but with Ray it's that it 'took him time' to figure boxers out. Or rather 'it was Ray not knowing how to deal with Kalule rather than Kalule showing much in the fight'


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> Also, calling Benes as good as Trut is laughable. Kudo and Seales were good wins, but I think Seales was blind in one eye by the time they fught and clearly on the downslide.


I didn't, I said RHODES.


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Don't give me a summary of his career son. You've just boxrec'd that.
> 
> You know nothing of the era nor Kalule's opponents; you deciding which wins were notable for him means nothing because you have no knowledge. Get fucked.


Can't really Boxrec somebodies best wins though, can you? You have to be able to assess said fighter's ability anyway to do so. Stop being so elitist with the whole 'you know nothing about him or his era' just because somebody doesn't share your opinion on said fighter. Frankly *you *know nothing about what he knows about Kalule!


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I didn't, I said RHODES.


I thought you said Rhodes AND Trout?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> I thought you said Rhodes AND Trout?


Yeah,

Benes=Rhodes
Kudo=Trout


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Danny said:


> Can't really Boxrec somebodies best wins though, can you? You have to be able to assess said fighter's ability anyway to do so. Stop being so elitist with the whole 'you know nothing about him or his era' just because somebody doesn't share your opinion on said fighter. Frankly *you *know nothing about what he knows about Kalule!


First and foremost, familiar with him as a poster so yes I can hazard a guess as to his knowledge of more obscure fighters.

Secondly, yes you can; you scroll down and only mention the names you recognise.

Thirdly, who the fuck are you and why do you care how I speak to other posters?


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yes, and in the pro's Kalule was a champion who had wins over World ranked opposition at 154 and 160. What more do you want? He fared better than Davis and Biggs, that's not a fair comparison.
> 
> Ray Leonard showed he was chinny? Leonard showed yet again he was an offensive beast. Davey Moore hit Kalule lots and only Kalule's stamina failed him.
> 
> ...


It's just best t disagree. My take of Jalule is an abver average fighter with an average chin. An average chin is not god in my book. ayub's skills made him above average, thugh. Tommy had an average chin and was at the top of the food chain, though. Lets just be clear where Kalule is at. Kalule beats a lot of fighters, and get wiped out by a lot, too. Guys like Norris, or Jackson, he is on their level, but I still see them stopping him. I would put him behind Norris.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah,
> 
> Benes=Rhodes
> Kudo=Trout


I never saw Kudo fight, but He was a few good wins, Dazo being his best. I don't know enough aboutt him to rate him.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

@Flea Man.......I was a Buster Drayton fan back in the day. How do you think he does against Kalule?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> @Flea Man.......I was a Buster Drayton fan back in the day. How do you think he does against Kalule?


Ooh, very nice fight this! Drayton likely doesn't have the punch to dissuade Kalule though (decent but not consistent enough in his application that he'd overwhelm him), and Kalule has the better footwork. Drayton taller and longer though. With Draytons tight guard it'd likely be a bit of a stinker for most, but nice technical fight. EDIT: HOW FUCKING UNDERRATED IS DAVEY MOORE?!? Thinking of Drayton made me think about him. Went to South Africa and battered the devastating puncher Weir. Beat up weight drained Kalule (walked through him, and Kalule really hit him with a lot and was getting in and out of range nicely for a fair few rounds) and broke El Radars ankle ;-) Despite Moore being already a bit faded by then it was a good win for Drayton.

As for Kudo, very basic, immensely strong and with good stamina. Basically only dealt in straight punches. Former wrestler (collegiate) in fact. Trout more diverse (sloppy punching technique though) and taller, bigger (different weigh in days obviously) and had the very good win over Cotto, so likely a bit better going into the Canelo fight than Kudo was going into the Kalule fight. What makes it as good a win is that Kalule dominated and Canelo just about scraped through.

The Kudo-Gazo fight is truly one of the worst fights ever. Boring as fuck, but Kudo won it.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

No one has top wins comparable to Leonard. Who was ever comparing them ?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> No one has top wins comparable to Leonard. Who was ever comparing them ?


You're late. This thread is now about whether Kalule was truly World class or not.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You're late. This thread is now *about whether Kalule was truly World class or not*.


:lol:

Now there's a sub plot :-(


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> No one has top wins comparable to Leonard. Who was ever comparing them ?


Nucca please!


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> ***** please!


:lol: fine.

My next pets whenever I get them are going to be named after the murderer's row.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> No one has top wins comparable to Leonard. Who was ever comparing them ?


Tliang :lol: :yep


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> You're late. This thread is now about whether Kalule was truly World class or not.


:lol: Kalule was definately world class. Good enough to be a belt holder but not good enough to be undisputed champ.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Tliang :lol: :yep


:hey

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?15481-What-Fighter-Has-the-Deepest-Top-5-Win-Column


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> :lol: Kalule was definately world class. Good enough to be a belt holder but not good enough to be undisputed champ.


I'm sure we've spoken about Hope before. I rate him higher than most. He was highly capable. It really pisses me off when I see credit doled out to the likes of Ricky Burns and Jamie McDonnell for their straps but Hope is pretty much completely forgotten.

But do you think he would've beaten Kalule? And would Benitez's style match up well with Kalule's? Bar Benitez landing another wonder shot like he did against Hope, which wasn't really indicative of what El Radar was capable of offensively. Of all the truly exceptional fighters around in those days Benitez is the one I'd be least scared of for the Ugandan.

Had Kalule had the chance I think he could well have unified in 1980. If you disagree, please plead your case, as a fan of Hope I'd love to hear it.


----------



## Undefeated (Nov 23, 2013)

You cant compare them its crazy some people seriously think Mayweather is TBE its a joke but he is a great fighter but hes just nowhere near being TBE look at the difference between him and SRL in Leonards era he had fellow ATGs like Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Benitez and he fought them all and in Mayweathers era he has 1 fellow ATG at his weight in Pacman and he put so many obstacles in the way to make that fight it was terrible even vacating his title to avoid him thats not the attitude of TBE but people will still make excuses for him what a damn shame.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :hey
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?15481-What-Fighter-Has-the-Deepest-Top-5-Win-Column


Dooran doesn't have an entry there eh. I flip flop on him a lot, particularly as it pertains to his top win.

No really though, Barkley could probably be as high as 3rd given all the circumstances but other times I won't have him in the top five just simply going off the quality of fighters P4P. Buchanan and Marcel gotta be right up under Leonard.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You won't find a single one of us rating that. Ray was well beyond his peak & Lalonde was a good fighter who even in hindsight claims he had no issue with the weight (and certainly didn't look anywhere near as horrendous as say, Dawson). It's an enjoyable one to watch and is another example of Leonard's elite ability as a finisher, but I couldn't really give a fuck less about him being a "five division" or "168/175 champion". Hell, there's nary a mention even of the Hagler fight from me - which by the way is a great, historical upset no matter how it's diced and revised - when discussing his in-ring abilities or greatness.


I like the Lalonde fight. Leonard showed great control of the center. Just saying.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lalonde wasn't even that good either.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Imagine this guy doesn't damage his eye.


And here I was thinking that Hearns did it by jabbing the shit out of it.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Lalonde wasn't even that good either.


His mane >>>>, don't front.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> I guess you're trying to duplicate the success of the recent, identical thread that went 40 pages.
> 
> Good luck. :cheers


A fella can dream, right?


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Casper Gomez said:


> You forgot Kalule.


Added later, try to keep up OK?


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

I hate Ayub Kalule. @Bill Jincock


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Lalonde wasn't even that good either.


Can you imagine Teddy got hold of Donnie when he was out looking for him with an M16?
FNF is nothing without Theodore.

There's a poster from the old days who was brilliant on this subject(Teddy"Stone Dead" Atlas v Lalonde)

Was it @Thaerun? 
Help me with this one guys? @Hands of Iron?
You are the memory I used to have B.C (Before Cannibis) The last few years has had me paying in memory power.

Where am I? Who are all these people inside my computer?
Why have I got a computer? Only the CIA have computers.

Fuck! Better have a joint to calm down.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

@Faerun?

:rasta

:atlas

:broner


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Lalonde wasn't even that good either.


This is true. He was a one-armed fighter.


----------



## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> I hate Ayub Kalule. @Bill Jincock


You have no soul Red.

btw kalule was no open handed palm slapper.He was a converted southpaw, which turned out to be a bad idea for him as he was obviously not a natural southpaw puncher and struggled to get consistent snap and leverage into the straight left because of it, but he still threw it with a closed glove and great accuracy... more of a pushed shot at worst rather than a slap.His jab, right hook and uppercuts were all properly delivered, though he did often use the jab as a range-finder\deliberately slow trap for the counterpunch.His counter uppercut of the lead foot was as beautifully delivered a punch as any.


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Bill Jincock said:


> You have no soul Red.
> 
> btw kalule was no open handed palm slapper.He was a converted southpaw, which turned out to be a bad idea for him as he was obviously not a natural southpaw puncher and struggled to get consistent snap and leverage into the straight left because of it, but he still threw it with a closed glove and great accuracy... more of a pushed shot at worst rather than a slap.His jab, right hook and uppercuts were all properly delivered, though he did often use the jab as a range-finder\deliberately slow trap for the counterpunch.His counter uppercut of the lead foot was as beautifully delivered a punch as any.


Is it your channel on YT that is like, 96% Kalule?


----------



## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

I put up a handful of his fights when i started the account as there was nothing there other than the Leonard fight, but had quite a few other fighters stuff uploaded as well by the end.

So it could be that one, dunno as i haven't checked to see everything that is on youtube for ages.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I'm sure we've spoken about Hope before. I rate him higher than most. He was highly capable. It really pisses me off when I see credit doled out to the likes of Ricky Burns and Jamie McDonnell for their straps but Hope is pretty much completely forgotten.
> 
> But do you think he would've beaten Kalule? And would Benitez's style match up well with Kalule's? Bar Benitez landing another wonder shot like he did against Hope, which wasn't really indicative of what El Radar was capable of offensively. Of all the truly exceptional fighters around in those days Benitez is the one I'd be least scared of for the Ugandan.
> 
> Had Kalule had the chance I think he could well have unified in 1980. If you disagree, please plead your case, as a fan of Hope I'd love to hear it.


That's just like you to come up with a great blast from the past with the horribly underrated Maurice Hope Flea.
Never got anywhere near the credit he deserved and for some reason,every time I think of Corny Boza-Edwards I think of Maurice.
Not going to cheat and look up but I'm trying to remember the big name he stopped.Was it Vito?
Probably not.I don't know of Vito was fighting at 154 but I know you'll put me right my good man.Just know he beat someone better than Hagler did.

I actually thought of Maurice the other day when someone posted a link of (I think) Benitez saying how good Minchillo was(always thinking McCallum:lol


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> That's just like you to come up with a great blast from the past with the horribly underrated Maurice Hope Flea.
> Never got anywhere near the credit he deserved and for some reason,every time I think of Corny Boza-Edwards I think of Maurice.
> Not going to cheat and look up but I'm trying to remember the big name he stopped.Was it Vito?
> Probably not.I don't know of Vito was fighting at 154 but I know you'll put me right my good man.Just know he beat someone better than Hagler did.
> ...


Hope was pretty good, but the only thing he is remembered for is losing to Benitez in that highlight-reel ko. He beat Minchillo, Rocky Mattiolli, and actually stopped Vito in the 15th. Flea is right, he is very underrated, and it is a shame that a bum like Burns would get more accolades than him.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I'm sure we've spoken about Hope before. I rate him higher than most. He was highly capable. It really pisses me off when I see credit doled out to the likes of Ricky Burns and Jamie McDonnell for their straps but Hope is pretty much completely forgotten.
> 
> But do you think he would've beaten Kalule? And would Benitez's style match up well with Kalule's? Bar Benitez landing another wonder shot like he did against Hope, which wasn't really indicative of what El Radar was capable of offensively. Of all the truly exceptional fighters around in those days Benitez is the one I'd be least scared of for the Ugandan.
> 
> Had Kalule had the chance I think he could well have unified in 1980. If you disagree, please plead your case, as a fan of Hope I'd love to hear it.


I would go with Kalule, but Hope is a pretty good fighter in his own right. More power than Kalule, but I don't know if he had enough power to take out a prime Kalule. It would be a close fight, but Ayub had the far better ring generalship and boxing skills to be Hope.


----------



## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)

Thread was handled in the first few posts. Mayweather doesn't have a case.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> I would go with Kalule, but Hope is a pretty good fighter in his own right. More power than Kalule, but I don't know if he had enough power to take out a prime Kalule. It would be a close fight, but Ayub had the far better ring generalship and boxing skills to be Hope.


So do you retract your earloer statement that Kalule did not have what it takes to be the undisputed champ?


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> So do you retract your earloer statement that Kalule did not have what it takes to be the undisputed champ?


The funny thing about this is I knew you were going to come back on me with this. :lol: If you were a cop, I would have a case for entrapment on you.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> The funny thing about this is I knew you were going to come back on me with this. :lol: If you were a cop, I would have a case for entrapment on you.


 Had to be done :good

Have really enjoyed corresponding with you on this thread. It's been too long.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Had to be done :good
> 
> Have really enjoyed corresponding with you on this thread. It's been too long.


Same here. I only wish I had the time to go back and watch those fights. In his time, Kalule was better than most. I admit, I trolled a bit. I would have loved to see Kalule against Benitez.

Sam


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> Same here. I only wish I had the time to go back and watch those fights. In his time, Kalule was better than most. I admit, I trolled a bit. I would have loved to see Kalule against Benitez.
> 
> Sam


I don't think you trolled at all. You brought up some relevant points.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Sister Sledge said:


> Hope was pretty good, but the only thing he is remembered for is losing to Benitez in that highlight-reel ko. He beat Minchillo, Rocky Mattiolli, and actually stopped Vito in the 15th. Flea is right, he is very underrated, and it is a shame that a bum like Burns would get more accolades than him.


How do you know how much credit Maurice Hope got when he was champion and how do you know Burns gets more credit? I was only a kid when Benitez beat him and I remember him being well thought of,as was Jim Watt,but you don't hear a great deal about John H Stracey because he's not a commentator and he has one of the greatest wins ever by a European fighter.
And he actually lost to Minchillo.
I usually like you as a poster but to come in calling Ricky Burns a bum claiming he gets more accolades than Hope is completely uncalled for.Britain had a few world champions who time and history hasn't been overly kind to,but that's just down to the fact that we live in a different world media-wise.I'm not sure people will be claiming in 30 years that Burns was much better than Maurice Hope.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> How do you know how much credit Maurice Hope got when he was champion and how do you know Burns gets more credit? I was only a kid when Benitez beat him and I remember him being well thought of,as was Jim Watt,but you don't hear a great deal about John H Stracey because he's not a commentator and he has one of the greatest wins ever by a European fighter.
> And he actually lost to Minchillo.
> I usually like you as a poster but to come in calling Ricky Burns a bum claiming he gets more accolades than Hope is completely uncalled for.Britain had a few world champions who time and history hasn't been overly kind to,but that's just down to the fact that we live in a different world media-wise.I'm not sure people will be claiming in 30 years that Burns was much better than Maurice Hope.


A bit unfair to Sledge considering it was I who brought up the point that modern ABC titlists get a lot more credit than the more obscure types from the past who are largely forgotten even though they had better credentials.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> A bit unfair to Sledge considering it was I who brought up the point that modern ABC titlists get a lot more credit than the more obscure types from the past who are largely forgotten even though they had better credentials.


Not really Flea.There's no need to single out Burns and call him a bum.Time passing has left a skewed view of many decent Champions.McGuigan was the biggest star in the country for a while and got a lot more credit than some previous British champions.
As I said,it's wrong to say Burns gets more accolades when I remember Hope being well thought of,but like many of his era,he didn't get the coverage or money he would now.To single out Burns as a "bum" and make out he's thought of as a superstar is uncalled for.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

And it's not the type of post I would expect from him either.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Not really Flea.There's no need to single out Burns and call him a bum.Time passing has left a skewed view of many decent Champions.McGuigan was the biggest star in the country for a while and got a lot more credit than some previous British champions.
> As I said,it's wrong to say Burns gets more accolades when I remember Hope being well thought of,but like many of his era,he didn't get the coverage or money he would now.To single out Burns as a "bum" and make out he's thought of as a superstar is uncalled for.


Fair enough, I must've skimmed over the 'bum' bit.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Fair enough, I must've skimmed over the 'bum' bit.


You only need to look at Alex Arthur to see my point mate.Now whilst I used to like Alex on a local basis,he now has a nice gig commentating as an ex-world champ when he never actually won a title fight.He has a win over a green Ricky Burns but it only highlights how "accolades" are perceived nowadays.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> You only need to look at Alex Arthur to see my point mate.Now whilst I used to like Alex on a local basis,he now has a nice gig commentating as an ex-world champ when he never actually won a title fight.He has a win over a green Ricky Burns but it only highlights how "accolades" are perceived nowadays.


Well yeah, Arthur is one of the worst 'titlists' ever.

Jamie McDonnell & Stuart Hall get too much credit as well IMO.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Well yeah, Arthur is one of the worst 'titlists' ever.
> 
> Jamie McDonnell & Stuart Hall get too much credit as well IMO.


I'm with you there mate although I do think the IBF were a little unfair on McDonnell.But even though I can remember getting pelters for it at the old Brit forum,I've never really rated McDonnell.
If Stuart Hall gets through one defence against a top 10 fighter I'll be stunned.

But this view of "accolades" is rather skewed by fans nowadays.At least 3 times I've mentioned Julio Cesar Vasquez as a fighter who doesn't get much credit and been told either "I think you mean Chavez and how is he underrated" or "who?"
Now by today's "accolades" some people will say that Austin Trout has more than Vasquez,but there's no way I'm going to take that interpretation as fact.

Anyway,it's all good mate.Just thought the "bum" thing was uncalled for given that the accolades claim has no basis in fact for that particular analogy/reference.

But your original point is spot on.Sadly it's just the way the cookie crumbles nowadays.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I'm with you there mate although I do think the IBF were a little unfair on McDonnell.But even though I can remember getting pelters for it at the old Brit forum,I've never really rated McDonnell.
> If Stuart Hall gets through one defence against a top 10 fighter I'll be stunned.
> 
> But this view of "accolades" is rather skewed by fans nowadays.At least 3 times I've mentioned Julio Cesar Vasquez as a fighter who doesn't get much credit and been told either "I think you mean Chavez and how is he underrated" or "who?"
> ...


Vasquez IS tremendously underrated and a lock for the top 10 light middleweights of all time.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Vasquez IS tremendously underrated and a lock for the top 10 light middleweights of all time.


Bang on mate,but it's surprising that even some good posters who have good knowledge of the modern game know very little about him.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> How do you know how much credit Maurice Hope got when he was champion and how do you know Burns gets more credit? I was only a kid when Benitez beat him and I remember him being well thought of,as was Jim Watt,but you don't hear a great deal about John H Stracey because he's not a commentator and he has one of the greatest wins ever by a European fighter.
> And he actually lost to Minchillo.
> I usually like you as a poster but to come in calling Ricky Burns a bum claiming he gets more accolades than Hope is completely uncalled for.Britain had a few world champions who time and history hasn't been overly kind to,but that's just down to the fact that we live in a different world media-wise.I'm not sure people will be claiming in 30 years that Burns was much better than Maurice Hope.


I call Burns a bum compared to Hope, and Hope does seem forgotten. Burns is a local talent, whilst Hope was an actual word champion. Burns has gotten the most out of his talents.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I'm with you there mate although I do think the IBF were a little unfair on McDonnell.But even though I can remember getting pelters for it at the old Brit forum,I've never really rated McDonnell.
> If Stuart Hall gets through one defence against a top 10 fighter I'll be stunned.
> 
> But this view of "accolades" is rather skewed by fans nowadays.At least 3 times I've mentioned Julio Cesar Vasquez as a fighter who doesn't get much credit and been told either "I think you mean Chavez and how is he underrated" or "who?"
> ...


Vasquez is very underrated and a tough out for anybody. He beats Trout in my book. I think Vasquez is a little too tough for Trout.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> Vasquez is very underrated and a tough out for anybody. He beats Trout in my book. I think Vasquez is a little too tough for Trout.


Vasquez would beat Lara, Trout, and Molina.

I had his fight with Sweet Pea a draw including the point deductions.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I don't think you trolled at all. You brought up some relevant points.


I trolled because I think Kalule was very good. Just below the elite. Kind like Oba Carr. And I said some things that might come across as offensive, like the Burns remark.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Sister Sledge said:


> I call Burns a bum compared to Hope, and Hope does seem forgotten. Burns is a local talent, whilst Hope was an actual word champion. Burns has gotten the most out of his talents.


Sledge,I've always had you down as a good poster so I will admit I make no secret that I stick up for Burns more than I would have had you said McDonnell or Khan,and I'll look past the fact that it wasn't worded in comparison to Hope so we can move on.

Bygones?:smile


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> How do you know how much credit Maurice Hope got when he was champion and how do you know Burns gets more credit? I was only a kid when Benitez beat him and I remember him being well thought of,as was Jim Watt,but you don't hear a great deal about John H Stracey because he's not a commentator and he has one of the greatest wins ever by a European fighter.
> And he actually lost to Minchillo.
> I usually like you as a poster but to come in calling Ricky Burns a bum claiming he gets more accolades than Hope is completely uncalled for.Britain had a few world champions who time and history hasn't been overly kind to,but that's just down to the fact that we live in a different world media-wise.I'm not sure people will be claiming in 30 years that Burns was much better than Maurice Hope.


The first time I ever heard of Hope, It was because of a story on Rocky Mattiolli. Hope may have been well regarded, but lesser fighters got more breaks that him. He beat Michillo, he beat Vito, and Mattiolli. How many title shots did he get? How about the other guys? What is your biggest memory of Hope? Probably his knockout loss to Benitez. That is pretty much how he will be remembered.

Burns is a C-level fighter. He's a pug who has overrachieved. I don't mean to discredit him, but he's not that good of a fighter, and he gets too much credit for the little things he's done. He should feel lucky he got that nice payday to get knocked out by Broner. Stracy was a good fighter who is more well thught of than Hope. I apologize for offending you, for Ricky has paid his dues and is not a bum, but his is no world class fighter in my book.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Sledge,I've always had you down as a good poster so I will admit I make no secret that I stick up for Burns more than I would have had you said McDonnell or Khan,and I'll look past the fact that it wasn't worded in comparison to Hope so we can move on.
> 
> Bygones?:smile


It's all good. I shouldn't have called him a bum. I like Khan and think much more highly f him than Burns. Never seen McDonnell fight. Froch is my favorite British fighter, and I hate the way the Brits seems to have turned on him.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Vasquez would beat Lara, Trout, and Molina.
> 
> I had his fight with Sweet Pea a draw including the point deductions.


Whittaker was way too small fof LM. He had a difficult time with Vasquez' physical strength, but JCV showed that he could be outboxed. I don't think he beats Lara. Too much skill on Lara's part. He beats, Trout and Molina, though. A fight with him and Canelo or Angulo would be interesting.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Sister Sledge said:


> The first time I ever heard of Hope, It was because of a story on Rocky Mattiolli. Hope may have been well regarded, but lesser fighters got more breaks that him. He beat Michillo, he beat Vito, and Mattiolli. How many title shots did he get? How about the other guys? What is your biggest memory of Hope? Probably his knockout loss to Benitez. That is pretty much how he will be remembered.
> 
> Burns is a C-level fighter. He's a pug who has overrachieved. I don't mean to discredit him, but he's not that good of a fighter, and he gets too much credit for the little things he's done. He should feel lucky he got that nice payday to get knocked out by Broner. Stracy was a good fighter who is more well thught of than Hope. I apologize for offending you, for Ricky has paid his dues and is not a bum, but his is no world class fighter in my book.


No need to apologise mate,but I'm almost certain Hope lost to Minchillo.I may be wrong though.
I was only kidding about Khan.It was between him and Calzaghe to see if anyone would notice.

And you're spot on about Froch,but boxing fans are horribly fickle at times.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sister Sledge said:


> Whittaker was way too small fof LM. He had a difficult time with Vasquez' physical strength, but JCV showed that he could be outboxed. I don't think he beats Lara. Too much skill on Lara's part. He beats, Trout and Molina, though. A fight with him and Canelo or Angulo would be interesting.


Pre-prime he may've been but Winky Wright didn't have a chance at outboxing Vasquez.

Lara is good at other boxers but seeing as Molina outworked him (should've won IMO, despite being a generally ugly fighter to watch) and Angulo had a fair bit of success against him I'd say Vasquez would likely win.


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## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Pre-prime he may've been but Winky Wright didn't have a chance at outboxing Vasquez.
> 
> Lara is good at other boxers but seeing as Molina outworked him (should've won IMO, despite being a generally ugly fighter to watch) and Angulo had a fair bit of success against him I'd say Vasquez would likely win.


I don't think of Wright as highly as most. He was good at a lot of things but an expert at nothing. He could box very well, he could fight on the inside very well, He threw combo's very well. He could still be outboxed and outslugged, though. He had a granite chin, though, I'll give him that.

Good points on Lara. Sometimes I wonder about him. I stilll don't know how good he is, but I think he can be sectacular if he wants to be, but he is a safety first guy, even when he doesn't have to be. I just look at his nullifying tactics and think he would have success because of them.


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## 941jeremy (Jun 12, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Well, who _could_ Mayweather have fought that would equal those 4 on SRL's resume? Pacquiao in '09-'10 is the only one I can think of.


Pacquiao
undefeated Williams @welterweight
Martinez agreed to meet as low as 150
Lara/GGG @154
This would be as close as it gets but none of these fights happened nor will they ever.


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> First and foremost, familiar with him as a poster so yes I can hazard a guess as to his knowledge of more obscure fighters.
> 
> Secondly, yes you can; you scroll down and only mention the names you recognise.
> 
> Thirdly, who the fuck are you and why do you care how I speak to other posters?


TommyV mate. Just get annoyed by the elitist attitude sometimes, didn't mean to call you on it personally but it just happens all too often when if somebody merely disagrees with an opinion on an old-time fighter they immediately question their knowledge and say they know nothing about said fighter. Sometimes it's the case, sometimes it isn't, just doesn't need to be done all the time. If somebody thinks that Rigo can beat Fenech or that Floyd has a better win on his record than Kalule I'm not going to instantly discredit that persons opinion and tell them they know nothing about boxing because I might not agree for example. Just my two cents, hopefully you can appreciate in a sense where I'm coming from, I certainly do understand though that at times there are people who come in to threads and post 'lul Fenech is a crude bum Rigo would beat him with his left-hand behind his back' when they've watched a 2 minute highlight reel of Fenech on YouTube.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Danny said:


> TommyV mate. Just get annoyed by the elitist attitude sometimes, didn't mean to call you on it personally but it just happens all too often when if somebody merely disagrees with an opinion on an old-time fighter they immediately question their knowledge and say they know nothing about said fighter. Sometimes it's the case, sometimes it isn't, just doesn't need to be done all the time. If somebody thinks that Rigo can beat Fenech or that Floyd has a better win on his record than Kalule I'm not going to instantly discredit that persons opinion and tell them they know nothing about boxing because I might not agree for example. Just my two cents, hopefully you can appreciate in a sense where I'm coming from, I certainly do understand though that at times there are people who come in to threads and post 'lul Fenech is a crude bum Rigo would beat him with his left-hand behind his back' when they've watched a 2 minute highlight reel of Fenech on YouTube.


Yo! Glad to see you.

Surprised you would call me on it considering how long you've known me.

Just trust my better judgement: I know when someone is making a statement based on nothing but knee jerk reaction and bias. You touched on it at the end; I just like to show up people who make brazen prediction with no analysis to back it up.

Something I learned the hard way many years ago, if you don't know what you're talking about, stay out of it. Even now I don't comment if I'm not sure, because I think you shouldn't form an opinion until you've seen as much evidence from both sides as you can.

But yes, I do appreciate where you're coming from, and hopefully you do with me as well. If I come across as elitist with some, well I guess it's because I am and I don't value the opinion of morons.

You'd know as well as anyone that I'm courteous to anyone who backs their opinions up even if I don't necessarily agree with them. Not you as such, I always tended to agree with you back in the day.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Yo! Glad to see you.
> 
> Surprised you would call me on it considering how long you've known me.
> 
> ...


:lol:
Brilliant! You better not be getting ideas about disappearing back to Historical full time any time soon!


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> :lol:
> Brilliant! You better not be getting ideas about disappearing back to Historical full time any time soon!


Depends if there's much of interest to me in here but I enjoy the crowd in here, a fair few posters I've enjoyed conversing with that I don't get to see too much anymore.


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## Faerun (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> @Faerun?
> 
> :rasta
> 
> ...


What...?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Depends if there's much of interest to me in here but I enjoy the crowd in here, a fair few posters I've enjoyed conversing with that I don't get to see too much anymore.


There's been a lot less people mouthing off terribly erroneous shit. That includes my more agenda-riddled posts they don't know enough about to correct.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Faerun said:


> What...?


I thought it might have been you who used to post a lot about Teddy and Lalonde.
Sorry,must've been someone else.


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## Faerun (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> I thought it might have been you who used to post a lot about Teddy and Lalonde.
> Sorry,must've been someone else.


Wasn't me


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Ray had the great opponents, but he had to sign the fights to get the win. It takes Floyd so long to fight Pacman, I doubt he would have signed to fight Hearns or Duran or Benitez. His reluctance to fight Manny shows he would have never fought any of the fab 4? Could he have beaten them. I don't know, but his skills match them. But he still has to fight them to have thier legacy.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> Ray had the great opponents, but he had to sign the fights to get the win. It takes Floyd so long to fight Pacman, I doubt he would have signed to fight Hearns or Duran or Benitez. His reluctance to fight Manny shows he would have never fought any of the fab 4? Could he have beaten them. I don't know, but his skills match them. But he still has to fight them to have thier legacy.


Mayweather sees something in Manny that I don't see. why he didn' rush to sign on the line I'll never figure out. Manny is wide open and does such wild rushes in his fights. He's fast enough where no one could rally take advantage, until JMM caught him. Manny's style is taylor made for counter puncher Mayweather, Floyd is a cut above Manny IMO. Apparently I'm more confident of Mayweather's skills than Mayweather is. I'm not so confident of Flyd's chances against the members of the fab four.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> Ray had the great opponents, but he had to sign the fights to get the win. It takes Floyd so long to fight Pacman, I doubt he would have signed to fight Hearns or Duran or Benitez. His reluctance to fight Manny shows he would have never fought any of the fab 4? Could he have beaten them. I don't know, but his skills match them. But he still has to fight them to have thier legacy.


Mayweather fought Corrales who was looking pretty devastating and top P4P as Hearns was when Leonard signed on so :conf


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## Smirk (Dec 14, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Chuck Kalule in there as well.
> 
> Floyd's doesn't have a single win that matches up to Kalule, and that's not because I'm underrating Floyd's comp'.
> 
> He doesn't match up at all with Leonard. The quality of their opposition is not even comparable.





Flea Man said:


> It doesn't matter what order you put it in. This thread is not worth continuing with. There is NO reasonable comparison that can be made.


Why didn't the thread stop after this? Nothing else needed to be said.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather fought Corrales who was looking pretty devastating and top P4P as Hearns was when Leonard signed on so :conf


Some people just can't handle the truth.:yep

Philip N'Dou is a better win than Hagler.

An ancient shot small plodder or a prime beast with the highest KO percentage ever?

Run like a bitch tactics or a shoulder rolling masterpiece?

A blatant robbery or a devastating KO?

We all know the right answer.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Some people just can't handle the truth.:yep
> 
> Philip N'Dou is a better win than Hagler.
> 
> ...


Those rose colored things must be on sale.......


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather fought Corrales who was looking pretty devastating and top P4P as Hearns was when Leonard signed on so :conf


I am not sure Corrales can ever be compared to a Thomas Hearns level fighter. Remember Tommy knocked out Cuevas and Duran and outboxed Benetez and Hill at 175. The best win of Floyd's career in my mind is believe it or not Delahoya. Genaro Hernandez was great also. Floyd has a great career, but he lacks the prime legends on his resume which puts him in that top 25 for sure. He might go in some people's top 25, but not generally. He needed Pacman. Even if he had Pacman on his resume now, it would look good.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

I laugh when I hear people say Mayweather-Corrales is a great exhibition of boxing.

They have obviously never seen Samart-Meza.

Payakaroon pities the fools.

@Flea Man


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> I laugh when I hear people say Mayweather-Corrales is a great exhibition of boxing.
> 
> They have obviously never seen Samart-Meza.
> 
> ...


Mind you Samart is arguably the greatest fighter of all time.

To all the mongs note I said FIGHTER and not PUGILIST


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> I am not sure Corrales can ever be compared to a Thomas Hearns level fighter. Remember Tommy knocked out Cuevas and Duran and outboxed Benetez and Hill at 175. The best win of Floyd's career in my mind is believe it or not Delahoya. Genaro Hernandez was great also. Floyd has a great career, but he lacks the prime legends on his resume which puts him in that top 25 for sure. He might go in some people's top 25, but not generally. He needed Pacman. Even if he had Pacman on his resume now, it would look good.


Of course I know Tommy did all that. But he only knocked out Cuevas and beat a few other half decent fighters before Ray signed to fight him so it's not like he was already some legend


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Of course I know Tommy did all that. But he only knocked out Cuevas and beat a few other half decent fighters before Ray signed to fight him so it's not like he was already some legend


That is true, but he was still Tommy Hearns, but I see your point. If Floyd does retire now the undefeated record does look good,and he has beaten some good guys and Oscar and Shane look good on his resume, I just think Pacman completes it and puts a icing on the cake.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> That is true, but he was still Tommy Hearns, but I see your point. If Floyd does retire now the undefeated record does look good,and he has beaten some good guys and Oscar and Shane look good on his resume, I just think Pacman completes it and puts a icing on the cake.


Yes Pac would be a huge win for him. I'm just saying how can you say Mayweather wouldn't have fought Ray Leonard or those guys? You honestly think Pac would've? He even turned down an old Mosley in 2009.

The way Corrales was looking upon Mayweather signing to fight him, if Mayweather was truly this careful fighter you think he is, he wouldn't have signed to face him


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yes Pac would be a huge win for him. I'm just saying how can you say Mayweather wouldn't have fought Ray Leonard or those guys? You honestly think Pac would've? He even turned down an old Mosley in 2009.
> 
> The way Corrales was looking upon Mayweather signing to fight him, if Mayweather was truly this careful fighter you think he is, he wouldn't have signed to face him


Mentally frayed from court case.

Pacquiao has never ducked anyone.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Mentally frayed from court case.
> 
> Pacquiao has never ducked anyone.


Well Pac didn't but his team did.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I'm just saying how can you say Mayweather wouldn't have fought Ray Leonard or those guys? You honestly think Pac would've?


In the 80's:

Mayweather stays at 135-140 forever - shitty resume, no big paydays and a close loss to JL Ramirez.
Modern fans rate him slightly above his uncle.

Pac's career ends prematurely after his weight-drained ass gets schooled by Sanchez, Chavez methodically destroys him, then Pac moves up to lightweight only to get himself brutally crushed in 1 round by Rosario and finally out of desperation Pac challenges some unknown title-holder named Hamada.
Hamada puts him in a wheelchair for life.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> In the 80's:
> 
> Mayweather stays at 135-140 forever - shitty resume, no big paydays and a close loss to JL Ramirez.
> Modern fans rate him slightly above his uncle.
> ...


:ibutt!!!!

Duran moves to welter and opens up the door for Floyd and Pac at 135. Mayweather embarrasses Manny by UD, moves up, and decisions Duran before Leonard can rematch the fat version and Floyd becomes a top 15 ATG


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## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)




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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Pac challenges some unknown title-holder named Hamada.
> Hamada puts him in a wheelchair for life.


:rofl

Pacquiao at super feather was like a quicker Andy Ganigan. He'd fit in well with Navarette, Boza, Chacon and Chacon.

He'd likely have beaten Juan Meza and shot Pintor at super bantam before Samart made him look more silly than JMM and Jeff Fenech raped him. Literally.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> :rofl
> 
> Pacquiao at super feather was like a quicker Andy Ganigan. He'd fit in well with Navarette, Boza, Chacon and Chacon.
> 
> He'd likely have beaten Juan Meza and shot Pintor at super bantam before Samart made him look more silly than JMM and Jeff Fenech raped him. Literally.


You know when Fenech took his cock out I was thinking Jesus he's going to be dq'ed but those Australian refs...


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Yes Pac would be a huge win for him. I'm just saying how can you say Mayweather wouldn't have fought Ray Leonard or those guys? You honestly think Pac would've? He even turned down an old Mosley in 2009.
> 
> The way Corrales was looking upon Mayweather signing to fight him, if Mayweather was truly this careful fighter you think he is, he wouldn't have signed to face him


Floyd was younger and didn't have the luxury of handpicking then, and to be honest Corrales was not that elite fighter which would trouble Floyd. Floyd edged him in speed and in reach if I recall. Corrales was taller, but he didn't use his height much in fights. He was good, but Floyd was so much better. I am talking about the elite guys who had the great miracle wins like Hearns over Cuevas and Duran or Ray over Duran and HearnsThere is no way of knowing for sure, but I don't think Floyd would have fought them. The fab 4 usually signed fights in quick fashion. And the truth is Hearns and Duran were not at welterweight that long, they both had moved up full time to 154 by 1982. Duran fighting for the title with Benitez in Jan. Hearns in Dec. So Floyd would not have had much of a chance to fight Hearns or Duran. I just get the feeling Pacman would have signed to fight the fab 4 regardless of win or loss. He did fight anyone. Floyd has too many barriers in the way. Remember Hearns and Duran signed to fight each other quickly in 1984. Duran and Hagler signed quickly also.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> Floyd was younger and didn't have the luxury of handpicking then, and to be honest Corrales was not that elite fighter which would trouble Floyd. Floyd edged him in speed and in reach if I recall. Corrales was taller, but he didn't use his height much in fights. He was good, but Floyd was so much better. I am talking about the elite guys who had the great miracle wins like Hearns over Cuevas and Duran or Ray over Duran and HearnsThere is no way of knowing for sure, but I don't think Floyd would have fought them. The fab 4 usually signed fights in quick fashion. And the truth is Hearns and Duran were not at welterweight that long, they both had moved up full time to 154 by 1982. Duran fighting for the title with Benitez in Jan. Hearns in Dec. So Floyd would not have had much of a chance to fight Hearns or Duran. I just get the feeling Pacman would have signed to fight the fab 4 regardless of win or loss. He did fight anyone. Floyd has too many barriers in the way. Remember Hearns and Duran signed to fight each other quickly in 1984. Duran and Hagler signed quickly also.


I actually think Floyd would've fought them. They wouldn't turn down millions and sue Floyd over some drug tests.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I actually think Floyd would've fought them. They wouldn't turn down millions and sue Floyd over some drug tests.


based on what we know, Floyd cares about money and his health more than legacy, so I don't know if he would fight them. Nobody knows. Based off the pac thing we certainly COULD have another one of those situations.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> based on what we know, Floyd cares about money and his health more than legacy, so I don't know if he would fight them. Nobody knows. Based off the pac thing we certainly COULD have another one of those situations.


Well when Hearns and (mainly) Steward were mouthing off about steroids to SRL in the press Leonard didn't give one fuck, although he was mad and said he'll take whatever tests they want.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Well when Hearns and (mainly) Steward were mouthing off about steroids to SRL in the press Leonard didn't give one fuck, although he was mad and said he'll take whatever tests they want.


the thing is you still have guys like margarito williams and martinez who Floyd could have fought during his premature "retirement"


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> the thing is you still have guys like margarito williams and martinez who Floyd could have fought during his premature "retirement"


Margarito sucks.

Anyways Mayweather made up for that when he came out of retirement.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Margarito sucks.
> 
> Anyways Mayweather made up for that when he came out of retirement.


You can't just make up for ducking quality fighters by coming back.

Listen, you can say he sucks in hindsight but it would've been a relevant fight for Floyd. Whos to say that Floyd wouldn't have temporarily retired to avoid SRL hearns hagler or duran. You never know. F

and I've never been high on Margacheato either but that would have been interesting because Marg would've walk through everything Floyd would have to offer and give him relentless pressure for 12 rounds. Thats a huge welter he'd be facing


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> You can't just make up for ducking quality fighters by coming back.
> 
> Listen, you can say he sucks in hindsight but it would've been a relevant fight for Floyd. Whos to say that Floyd wouldn't have temporarily retired to avoid SRL hearns hagler or duran. You never know. F
> 
> and I've never been high on Margacheato either but that would have been interesting because Marg would've walk through everything Floyd would have to offer and give him relentless pressure for 12 rounds. Thats a huge welter he'd be facing


Because they were big money fights against those guys. Who the hell was Margarito? The guy who beat Cintron? Gimme a break.

He just is not a quality fighter. Too bad, Floyd was ready to sign against Margarito but Arum wouldn't let it happen because he wouldn't work with Delahoya in the next fight.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Because they were big money fights against those guys. Who the hell was Margarito? The guy who beat Cintron? Gimme a break.
> 
> He just is not a quality fighter. Too bad, Floyd was ready to sign against Margarito but Arum wouldn't let it happen because he wouldn't work with Delahoya in the next fight.


the guy that beat clottey, cotto, cintron, etc

he was decent


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> the guy that beat clottey, cotto, cintron, etc
> 
> he was decent


When they were talking the fight he was a WBO nobody.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> When they were talking the fight he was a WBO nobody.


:rolleyes


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> :rolleyes


It is what it is :conf


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

oh and i forgot about prime cotto


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> oh and i forgot about prime cotto


Yeah because the 80s guys fought every one in their prime right :lol:


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I actually think Floyd would've fought them. They wouldn't turn down millions and sue Floyd over some drug tests.


lol Floyd won't fight Pac because he's worried about his health but he's gonna jump in with Ray , Duran, and Hearns. :gsg


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> lol Floyd won't fight Pac because he's worried about his health but he's gonna jump in with Ray , Duran, and Hearns. :gsg


They wouldn't have sued him over some namecalling :lol:


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Well when Hearns and (mainly) Steward were mouthing off about steroids to SRL in the press Leonard didn't give one fuck, although he was mad and said he'll take whatever tests they want.


Nice comment. It is true, although it was Ray's fault. In the rematch near the end of the buildup in one of the last press conferences (could have been the last one (either on Thursday Jun 8, 1989 or Friday Jun. 9 1989)-the fight was on June 12 on Monday. Previous to that last press conference,Ray had been pointing at his chin to get to Tommy in press conference games, and moslty in interviews. Virgil Hill had fought Joe Lasisi at the end of May in 1989, and after the fight Alex Wallau interviewed Ray and Tommy for thier upcoming fight, and Ray said " I want to commend Tommy on his chin. In his fights with Hagler and Kinchen. Chin Tough". Then he would point at his chin over and over, even when Tommy was answering Alex. So on that last press conference at the end of that last week before the fight, Tommy sees Ray in one of those black shirts which he wore to show off his arms and he said something like " you are look big, and Tommy insinuated he was on something saying" you sure you aren't taking something". Tommy was just trying to get on Ray's nerves and he did it. I was surprised Ray was so hurt by it. It was just press conference games. Tommy won it with one small comment. Ray tried to get on Tommy's nerves the whole time, and Tommy puts an end to it all with that one comment. Tommy waited right to the end. And Ray told Nick Charles that he told Tommy he would put his whole purse on the line if he was on anything if Tommy would do the same, and Ray said Tommy declined. Of course Tommy declined. He knew Ray was not on something, but he got the edge and put Ray on the defensive. Similar to Duran with Ray in 1980. Ray liked to play the games a little, but they sometimes backfired on him. He knew Duran got to him in 1980 and he wanted to be as effective, but sometimes he tried too hard. For Duran, it came more natural.


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

turbotime said:


> They wouldn't have sued him over some namecalling :lol:


I imagine they wouldn't have made a myriad of excuses not to fight a smaller fighter like Floyd has done.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> I imagine they wouldn't have made a myriad of excuses not to fight a smaller fighter like Floyd has done.


No the fight would've been signed the first go round.


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

turbotime said:


> No the fight would've been signed the first go round.


The fight would have never happened, because Floyd wouldn't go anywhere near those guys. He would have taken a permanent vacation if Leonard came around.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> The fight would have never happened, because Floyd wouldn't go anywhere near those guys. He would have taken a permanent vacation if Leonard came around.


Nope, Leonard would've taken any tests :deal


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## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

floyd in that era would've had no choice but to fight Duran, Hearns, Leonard. 

And he'd never become the star he is today cause of the asswhoopings


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Nope, Leonard would've taken any tests :deal


bama Floyd dropped out of boxing to stay away from a prime Cotto, Margo, and Mosley and I don't need to get into the Pacquiao situation. I can't imagine the excuses he'd make for Leonard or Hearns.

Last I checked Pac ok'd the testing like 3 years ago and Floyd has brought up endless excuses.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> bama Floyd dropped out of boxing to stay away from a prime Cotto, Margo, and Mosley and I don't need to get into the Pacquiao situation. I can't imagine the excuses he'd make for Leonard or Hearns.
> 
> Last I checked Pac ok'd the testing like 3 years ago and Floyd has brought up endless excuses.


Too bad Mosley needed a vacation when asked about Floyd huh :rofl

Pac turns down 40 mill but now he'll fight for free atsch


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Too bad Mosley needed a vacation when asked about Floyd huh :rofl
> 
> Pac turns down 40 mill but now he'll fight for free atsch


At least he'll fight him. What's Floyd's latest excuse? I can't keep up. I don't remember Mosley being on vacation when Floyd was dodging him for a couple years.

bama


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> At least he'll fight him. What's Floyd's latest excuse? I can't keep up. *I don't remember Mosley being on vacation when Floyd was dodging him for a couple years. *
> 
> bama


That's probably because you weren't watching boxing all those years ago Gander :lol:


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> Nice comment. It is true, although it was Ray's fault. In the rematch near the end of the buildup in one of the last press conferences (could have been the last one (either on Thursday Jun 8, 1989 or Friday Jun. 9 1989)-the fight was on June 12 on Monday. Previous to that last press conference,Ray had been pointing at his chin to get to Tommy in press conference games, and moslty in interviews. Virgil Hill had fought Joe Lasisi at the end of May in 1989, and after the fight Alex Wallau interviewed Ray and Tommy for thier upcoming fight, and Ray said " I want to commend Tommy on his chin. In his fights with Hagler and Kinchen. Chin Tough". Then he would point at his chin over and over, even when Tommy was answering Alex. So on that last press conference at the end of that last week before the fight, Tommy sees Ray in one of those black shirts which he wore to show off his arms and he said something like " you are look big, and Tommy insinuated he was on something saying" you sure you aren't taking something". Tommy was just trying to get on Ray's nerves and he did it. I was surprised Ray was so hurt by it. It was just press conference games. Tommy won it with one small comment. Ray tried to get on Tommy's nerves the whole time, and Tommy puts an end to it all with that one comment. Tommy waited right to the end. And Ray told Nick Charles that he told Tommy he would put his whole purse on the line if he was on anything if Tommy would do the same, and Ray said Tommy declined. Of course Tommy declined. He knew Ray was not on something, but he got the edge and put Ray on the defensive. Similar to Duran with Ray in 1980. Ray liked to play the games a little, but they sometimes backfired on him. He knew Duran got to him in 1980 and he wanted to be as effective, but sometimes he tried too hard. For Duran, it came more natural.


I was surprised too. I think Hearns was a little bitter and was trying to take away from Leonard's win over Hagler with those comments about the cheating.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I was surprised too. I think Hearns was a little bitter and was trying to take away from Leonard's win over Hagler with those comments about the cheating.


He got to Ray with one small comment for sure. Ray really was upset. Tommy didn't believe it at all, it was just away to get on Ray's nerves. Ray was ok with press conference games, but not as good as he thought. I think it backfired on him with Hearns. Duran got to Ray in the first fight. I think the only guy Ray sort of outmanuevered in a real way was Hagler.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> He got to Ray with one small comment for sure. Ray really was upset. Tommy didn't believe it at all, it was just away to get on Ray's nerves. Ray was ok with press conference games, but not as good as he thought. I think it backfired on him with Hearns. Duran got to Ray in the first fight. I think the only guy Ray sort of outmanuevered in a real way was Hagler.


What comment are you referrring to? The cheating comment? it was very small, and like I said, not something that Leonard or any real fighter would sue over.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> What comment are you referrring to? The cheating comment? it was very small, and like I said, not something that Leonard or any real fighter would sue over.


yeah the cheating one about steroids. it was a small comment. I remember the clip. Funny, I have not seen it since 1989, and I remember it in my mind. Tommy is at the podium and he looks back at Ray sitting at the table and says in a smiling way something about looking big like "you've gotten big" What have you been using". Ray really got upset by that comment. It just told me that Ray can dish it out, but he cannot take it well. I never thought Ray was great at the press conference stuff. Hagler was not good at all, but Hagler was simple in that if a guy upset him he just wanted to win that much more, so that is why Ray's tactic with Hagler was to be his friend and be nice. And that worked. He could have never been nice with Duran, that would have backfired. Hagler had a soft heart and Ray's (friendship) with him backfired on Marvin, yet if someone got him mad he could really turn it on. Hearns was more even in that he always had the same gameplan, except for Hagler. In that fight he lost himself in the disklike they had for each other. I actually think Hagler vs. Hearns happened because both guys really didn't like each other that night. They had been on the road and they had enough of each other and thier talking. I ramble when it comes to that era.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> yeah the cheating one about steroids. it was a small comment. I remember the clip. Funny, I have not seen it since 1989, and I remember it in my mind. Tommy is at the podium and he looks back at Ray sitting at the table and says in a smiling way something about looking big like "you've gotten big" What have you been using". Ray really got upset by that comment. It just told me that Ray can dish it out, but he cannot take it well. I never thought Ray was great at the press conference stuff. Hagler was not good at all, but Hagler was simple in that if a guy upset him he just wanted to win that much more, so that is why Ray's tactic with Hagler was to be his friend and be nice. And that worked. He could have never been nice with Duran, that would have backfired. Hagler had a soft heart and Ray's (friendship) with him backfired on Marvin, yet if someone got him mad he could really turn it on. Hearns was more even in that he always had the same gameplan, except for Hagler. In that fight he lost himself in the disklike they had for each other. I actually think Hagler vs. Hearns happened because both guys really didn't like each other that night. They had been on the road and they had enough of each other and thier talking. I ramble when it comes to that era.


It wasn't that small of a comment, it even made tv news and into the papers. I don't think it bugged Leonard that much, he said he'd take the tests.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Who's talking shit in here, Stonehands again??


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> It wasn't that small of a comment, it even made tv news and into the papers. I don't think it bugged Leonard that much, he said he'd take the tests.


I don't know. I think it bothered Ray more than anything Ray ever tried to get on Hearns nerves about. I got Ray on the defensive.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> I don't know. I think it bothered Ray more than anything Ray ever tried to get on Hearns nerves about. I got Ray on the defensive.


Well what's he going to say? Yeah you're right Tommy.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Well what's he going to say? Yeah you're right Tommy.


It wasn't what he said, it was how he reacted. When Nick Charles interviewed him he looked very annoyed by it. He didn't just shake it off like Tommy shook things off. Tommy and Duran had ways to get to Ray with one comment, and Ray saw how things worked, so he always tried to do that to other guys, but without much success. I respect how he got Hagler to agree to everything and even got Hagler to come out right handed.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

...


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