# Bhop Beats KO, Ranked Ahead of Floyd?



## BoxingJabsBlog (Sep 20, 2013)

Simple question, on your own personal list, if Hopkins does the impossible do you move him ahead of Floyd on your own all time list?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

feels like he should since he is still beating top guys at an advance age. Bonus points in my book.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

BoxingJabsBlog said:


> Simple question, on your own personal list, if Hopkins does the possible do you move him ahead of Floyd on your own all time list?


Fixed :good


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## Rexrapper 1 (Jun 4, 2013)

He is already higher on my list.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Rexrapper 1 said:


> He is already higher on my list.


Same.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Ya BHop isn't ducking top guys because his ego is bigger than the sport and he refuses to work w/ different promotional companies. Plus Floyd looked like absolute shit versus Maidana - absolute shit. That's not to say Bernard hasn't had many shit fests (Calzaghe and RJJ2 come to mind immediately), but he's fighting top tier guys at an age people are considering retirement from TRAINING fighters...let alone actually fighting themselves. It's beyond impressive


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## 2manyusernames (Jun 14, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Same.


What's your list look like?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

2manyusernames said:


> What's your list look like?


I only rank fighters I really know. I can't seem to find the working list I had. But I know that it was these fighters.

Antonio Cervantes
Bernard Hopkins
Erik Morales
Evander Holyfield
Floyd Mayweather Jr.
George Foreman
James Toney
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Juan Manuel Marquez
Julio Cesar Chavez
Lennox Lewis
Manny Pacquiao
Marco Antonio Barrera
Marvin Hagler
Mike Tyson
Muhammad Ali
Oscar De La Hoya
Pernell Whitaker
Ray Robinson
Roberto Duran
Rocky Marciano
Roy Jones Jr.
Shane Mosley
Sugar Ray Leonard
Tommy Hearns
Wilfred Benitez

I asked @Hands of Iron to rank them to compare them with my own list. Never got around to it. Let me re-rank them and PM you.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I didn't get around to it, but there was a lot of great boxing talk involved. Psuedo-diatribe on Mike McCallum's greatness :rofl And you still don't list him there FFS. Your preferred criteria for ranking leaves the door open to drop Floyd quite a bit too as we saw.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I didn't get around to it, but there was a lot of great boxing talk involved. Psuedo-diatribe on Mike McCallum's greatness :rofl And you still don't list him there FFS. Your preferred criteria for ranking leaves the door open to drop Floyd quite a bit too as we saw.


I'm still not ready for him 

Or Arguello, Canto, Olivares, Gomez, Ortiz, Charles, Moore, Gavilan, Napoles, etc. etc.

Yeah, I put resume above all else. And lots of weight on big wins. Floyd has considerable depth though.


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## Lunny (May 31, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Same.


TBF fucking everyone is ahead of Floyd on your list. My Grandad who had 2 amateur fights 50 years ago with a record of 1-1 is ahead of Floyd on your list.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm still not ready for him
> 
> Or Arguello, Canto, Olivares, Gomez, Ortiz, Charles, Moore, Gavilan, Napoles, etc. etc.
> 
> Yeah, I put resume above all else. And lots of weight on big wins. Floyd has considerable depth though.


Lots of weight on The Big Win. Singular. 

I've always been about top wins and in-ring ability having more weight than depth or longevity. Most objective people would take them all into about equal consideration but I don't.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Lunny said:


> TBF fucking everyone is ahead of Floyd on your list. My Grandad who had 2 amateur fights 50 years ago with a record of 1-1 is ahead of Floyd on your list.


TBF he's earned it. The Amateur game in that era was ridiculous, and that win he had over a prime Nick "The Grin" Chambers is better than anything Floyd has done. Real talk.



Hands of Iron said:


> Lots of weight on The Big Win. Singular.
> 
> I've always been about top wins and in-ring ability having more weight than depth or longevity. Most objective people would take them all into about equal consideration but I don't.


I've described it before as being little crums of gold weighed on a scale. Each win is a nugget of gold. The bigger the win, the bigger the nugget. Depth only helps you if the weight at the end of it compensates for not having 1 or 2 bigger nuggets on there. Floyd has a lot of medium-big sized nuggets.

To me longevity in itself isn't something you just add on, it has to be taken in context. It may sweeten a win but it doesn't make your opponent any better than he was at the time he fought him. Being around longer just means you have more time to accumulate gold, and great wins at old age make those nuggets just a bit bigger.


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

On my own personal all-time list, Hopkins is already ahead of Floyd.


Absolutely no question.






If he fights Kovalev and LOSES, his ranking still goes up, not down, for having the biggest set of cajones in the sport today. - Like Bogotazo said, BHop has much bigger nuggets than Floyd. :lol:

(And I never saw Hopkins take a cheap shot to get out of a tough fight, or force his opponent to wear extra-padded gloves that he hadn't even trained with.)


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## Capaedia (Jun 6, 2013)

Is Kovalev really proven enough to push his ranking in any significant way?

You'd have to look back in 20 years. Just a look at the predictions the general forum makes about fighters on the regular should really demonstrate how little perspective we have right now, compared to what clued up people have to say about fighters from the '90s.

Oscar seems to be a near unanimous ATG now. That wasn't the case 4 years ago. It was a very unpopular opinion. But we've seen how the dust settled and it turned out a lot of the things he did were more special than they were seen to be at the time.

It works in the opposite direction as well. Floyd was "ducking" Mosley in 2009. Now he has cherrypicked him. As with Canelo. No need to stick to Floyd though, how about Hopkins-Pavlik/Tarver/Trinidad?

One of the most misunderstood things about bias is that it can't be compensated for. It's not a tangible amount that you can just reverse, it is present in every opinion and it always will be. Add to that how frequently the landscape of the sport changes.

I'll use an easy example. Perception of Mayweather went from prime for Ortiz, not prime for Cotto, back to prime for Guerrero and Canelo, and then it is again back to past-prime in the aftermath of the Maidana fight.

Analyzing a fighter looks easy in hindsight. I can't really think of a high-profile fighter where I can say the public at the time was bang-on about them the whole time. Rocky Marciano went from the media's whipping boy cheater to one of the most beloved fighters in history. Muhammad Ali and Jack Johnson much the same.

That is the problem with these threads.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> TBF he's earned it. The Amateur game in that era was ridiculous, and that win he had over a prime Nick "The Grin" Chambers is better than anything Floyd has done. Real talk.
> 
> I've described it before as being little crums of gold weighed on a scale. Each win is a nugget of gold. The bigger the win, the bigger the nugget. Depth only helps you if the weight at the end of it compensates for not having 1 or 2 bigger nuggets on there. Floyd has a lot of medium-big sized nuggets.
> 
> To me longevity in itself isn't something you just add on, it has to be taken in context. It may sweeten a win but it doesn't make your opponent any better than he was at the time he fought him. Being around longer just means you have more time to accumulate gold, and great wins at old age make those nuggets just a bit bigger.


:lol: :lol:

I like the analogy though, I really do.

I'm a much happier boxing fan without having an all-time ranking list anymore these days. I think it's fun to compare two (or a small group) of fighters though in an ATG sense. It's just too much of a headache to sort out a massive P4P list in numerical order, there'd be double standards abound even if not intentional. Too many fighters across too many divisions in too rich of a history. This isn't like talking about the 10 Greatest NBA Players.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> I like the analogy though, I really do.
> 
> I'm a much happier boxing fan without having an all-time ranking list anymore these days. I think it's fun to compare two (or a small group) of fighters though in an ATG sense. It's just too much of a headache to sort out a massive P4P list in numerical order, there'd be double standards abound even if not intentional. Too many fighters across too many divisions in too rich of a history. This isn't like talking about the 10 Greatest NBA Players.


You know, it's true. No surprise that as I'm sorting these fighters, I end up putting so many of them together. The fab 4, the featherweight fab 4, Hopkins/RJJ/Toney, some of the 90's bunch, etc.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I already rank Hopkins ahead of Floyd.


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Capaedia said:


> .... One of the most misunderstood things about bias is that it can't be compensated for. It's not a tangible amount that you can just reverse, it is present in every opinion and it always will be. Add to that how frequently the landscape of the sport changes......


true dat.

Remember how we all felt about Danny Garcia, just a few short years ago? How do you like 'im NOW?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> You know, it's true. No surprise that as I'm sorting these fighters, I end up putting so many of them together. The fab 4, the featherweight fab 4, Hopkins/RJJ/Toney, some of the 90's bunch, etc.


As it pertains to boxing post-Fab 4 i.e. SRL-Hagler, which is unbelievably approaching almost three whole decades now [Fuck I'm gonna be 30 in a few years!] I'm not really sure if anybody will be able to rate above Whitaker and Jones for me. I don't really blink at naming them as the two best I've seen on film over that timespan and I'd probably put them both in the top five _all-time_ where ability is concerned (based on what I've seen). They both absolutely creamed all-time great fighters when they were either #1 or #2 P4P in their defining wins too - Whitaker has a better and deeper resume, Jones was a touch more dominant at his peak.


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## Capaedia (Jun 6, 2013)

Cableaddict said:


> true dat.
> 
> Remember how we all felt about Danny Garcia, just a few short years ago? How do you like 'im NOW?


Garcia is a particularly good example.

He was meant to lose to Khan, meant to lose the rematch to Morales, meant to scrape past Judah, meant to lose to Matthysse in brutal fashion (most thought he was going to be KO'd early!) but now he loses to Herrera and aha! He was no good. All along.

Really he shows us how little our opinions are worth at this point and maybe ever when it comes to something like this. It's not working in anything exact, it's just a series of opinions that are all reliant upon each other.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> As it pertains to boxing post-Fab 4 i.e. SRL-Hagler, which is unbelievably approaching almost three whole decades now [Fuck I'm gonna be 30 in a few years!] I'm not really sure if anybody will be able to rate above Whitaker and Jones for me. I don't really blink at naming them as the two best I've seen on film over that timespan and I'd probably put them both in the top five _all-time_ where ability is concerned (based on what I've seen). They both absolutely creamed all-time great fighters when they were either #1 or #2 P4P in their defining wins too - Whitaker has a better and deeper resume, Jones was a touch more dominant at his peak.


Jones and Whitaker are definitely ultra special. I had some considerable trouble ranking those two.I put Sweet Pea above in the end.

(But should he also be above Benitez? Resume-wise?)


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Hopkins is already well ahead of Floyd, not even close IMO


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Jones and Whitaker are definitely ultra special. I had some considerable trouble ranking those two.I put Sweet Pea above in the end.


_"In his prime he was without a legitimate loss and dominated two weights with what amounts to some of the very best boxing ever seen in color. He stands, along with Roy Jones, as the genuine colossus of the modern fight game, nothing less than the modern Sugar Ray Robinson in the sense that his enormous physical gifts were matched by a technical brilliance that sustained him when his body (and lifestyle) began to betray him" - Matt @McGrain_

:sxane



Bogotazo said:


> But should he also be above Benitez? Resume-wise?)


Considering I rate him over Hagler and Hearns, I'd say lawd yes. :lol: I probably don't size up a couple particular 'nuggets' you're looking at for Benitez as being too much superior and the overall weight makes up for it in spades. Chavez/McGirt (x2)/Nelson/Vasquez and arguably even De La Hoya is a tremendous set of top wins anyway. Buddy was a legit P4P fighter at the time, especially in the first go-round when Whitaker moved up and took the lineal title off him.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> _"In his prime he was without a legitimate loss and dominated two weights with what amounts to some of the very best boxing ever seen in color. He stands, along with Roy Jones, as the genuine colossus of the modern fight game, nothing less than the modern Sugar Ray Robinson in the sense that his enormous physical gifts were matched by a technical brilliance that sustained him when his body (and lifestyle) began to betray him" - Matt @McGrain_
> 
> :sxane
> 
> Considering I rate him over Hagler and Hearns, I'd say lawd yes. :lol: I probably don't size up a couple particular 'nuggets' you're looking at for Benitez as being too much superior and the overall weight makes up for it in spades. Chavez/McGirt (x2)/Nelson/Vasquez and arguably even De La Hoya is a tremendous set of top wins anyway. Buddy was a legit P4P fighter at the time, especially in the first go-round when Whitaker moved up and took the lineal title off him.


:think


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## Lunny (May 31, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> TBF he's earned it. The Amateur game in that era was ridiculous, and that win he had over a prime Nick "The Grin" Chambers is better than anything Floyd has done. Real talk.
> 
> I've described it before as being little crums of gold weighed on a scale. Each win is a nugget of gold. The bigger the win, the bigger the nugget. Depth only helps you if the weight at the end of it compensates for not having 1 or 2 bigger nuggets on there. Floyd has a lot of medium-big sized nuggets.
> 
> To me longevity in itself isn't something you just add on, it has to be taken in context. It may sweeten a win but it doesn't make your opponent any better than he was at the time he fought him. Being around longer just means you have more time to accumulate gold, and great wins at old age make those nuggets just a bit bigger.


:lol: Nick was shot by the time my grandad faced him.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :think


Being a Top 5 ATG Lightweight (one of the most historically stacked divisions in history) was just the _groundwork_ Whitaker laid for his career. Think about that.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Let me re-rank them and PM you.


Aight :good


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

If Hopkins can beat Kov and Adonis he will move up significantly in my eyes.

That will mean he has fully unified and cleaned out two divisions ten years apart, one when he will be literally 50.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Chatty said:


> If Hopkins can beat Kov and Adonis he will move up significantly in my eyes.
> 
> That will mean he has fully unified and cleaned out two divisions ten years apart, one when he will be literally 50.


I don't care about people saying Kovalev doesn't have the resume to make it a great win.
If Hopkins wins,it will be one of the greatest wins of the modern era and there's a fair argument that Bernard has 3 of the top 10 wins of the Millenium.
2 of those could be top 5.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I don't care about people saying Kovalev doesn't have the resume to make it a great win.
> If Hopkins wins,it will be one of the greatest wins of the modern era and there's a fair argument that Bernard has 3 of the top 10 wins of the Millenium.
> 2 of those could be top 5.


By all means I am strongly against hoping this happens. :lol: I don't want to see the guy beaten up and KO'ed either.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

YOu can only make such ranking after the fighters have retired. But Mayweather will most likely be ahead of Hopkins. Hopkins gets bonus points because of age but prim4prime MAyweather is just much more dominant and he is already old as well even though not that old but he is old in a lower division


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> By all means I am strongly against hoping this happens. :lol: I don't want to see the guy beaten up and KO'ed either.


Don't worry mate,Kovalev will be fine.
Bernard doesn't do KO's these days and it won't have Pavlik-type repercussions for Sergei.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Don't worry mate,Kovalev will be fine.
> Bernard doesn't do KO's these days and it won't have Pavlik-type repercussions for Sergei.


Ohh you slick


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PivotPunch said:


> YOu can only make such ranking after the fighters have retired. But Mayweather will most likely be ahead of Hopkins. Hopkins gets bonus points because of age but prim4prime MAyweather is just much more dominant and he is already old as well even though not that old but he is old in a lower division


Mayweather won't be ahead of Hopkins on my, and many other historians lists.

We will write the future


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hopkins shoots ahead if he beats Kovalev - someone I rate.
Floyd hasn't even beat ATG monsters. Are you going to give Hopkins stick for his loss to GOAT Jones Jr? Are you going to give Hopkins ridiculous stick for his 42 year old self losing to Joe Calzaghe the ATG - I rate Calzaghe extremely highly on a H2H level, I have him edging Ward. 
The only thorn that stands out on Hopkins' resume are his losses to Jermain Taylor. That shit pisses me off. 
But then again, Hopkins' middleweight resume is very weak. 

I don't see how anyone would rate Floyd far away from Arguello. They both have similar rankings.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Ohh you slick


:bluesuit


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I don't care about people saying Kovalev doesn't have the resume to make it a great win.
> If Hopkins wins,it will be one of the greatest wins of the modern era and there's a fair argument that Bernard has 3 of the top 10 wins of the Millenium.
> 2 of those could be top 5.


Which wins, only one I would consider as a truly great win would be Tito. He has a lot of solid wins but I don't think I could pick any other that could challenge top ten of the millenium thus far.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

You can discount The_Defeated_Gaul's posts on this or any other matter regarding Boxing. He believes Lomachenko would beat Mayweather if the two fought tomorrow.

Anyhow, I already believe Hopkins to be greater than Floyd.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Which wins, only one I would consider as a truly great win would be Tito. He has a lot of solid wins but I don't think I could pick any other that could challenge top ten of the millenium thus far.


I think the Pavlik win is only marginally behind Tito mate.
All very well with hindsight but that was on a par with Tito at the time.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I think the Pavlik win is only marginally behind Tito mate.
> All very well with hindsight but that was on a par with Tito at the time.


It is a very good win, certainly underrated these days, more so when taking into account the one sidedness of it. Still not sure if it would make my top ten though. I aint really made one tbh but I'd probably have:

Pacquaio TKO10 Barrera
Morrales UD12 Pacquaio
Margarito TKO10 Cotto
Mayweather TKO10 Corrales
Marquez KO6 Pacquaio
Forrest UD Mosley
Tarver KO2 Jones Jnr
Ward UD12 Froch
Rigondeaux UD12 Donaire
Bhop TKO12 Trinidad

all ahead of the top of my head.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Chatty said:


> It is a very good win, certainly underrated these days, more so when taking into account the one sidedness of it. Still not sure if it would make my top ten though. I aint really made one tbh but I'd probably have:
> 
> Pacquaio TKO10 Barrera
> Morrales UD12 Pacquaio
> ...


It's totally subjective mate,so I get where you're coming from,but I think their respective positions at the time along with the always present age factor would mean that Bernard's win over Pavlik certainly has to be considered.
Just one of those where it depends what you're looking for.
It's a shame that Margarito win will always have an asterisk now,because that was one of the most thrilling fights I've EVER seen.
Not just since 2000.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> It's totally subjective mate,so I get where you're coming from,but I think their respective positions at the time along *with the always present age factor* would mean that Bernard's win over Pavlik certainly has to be considered.
> Just one of those where it depends what you're looking for.
> It's a shame that Margarito win will always have an asterisk now,because that was one of the most thrilling fights I've EVER seen.
> Not just since 2000.


:verysad

Reminds me of Tim Duncan's argument over Larry Bird, a player whom he just simply wasn't ever better than. I couldn't really care less what it would mean in regards to Floyd and it seems most here already rate BHop above as it is, but amongst this hardcore-casual core I won't enjoy seeing him placed above Whitaker. :lol: The same one with "the low output and no inside game" ?! :rofl Really though? I can't put any faith in that, and anybody who takes the time to register and regularly post on a boxing forum is certainly a hardcore fan.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Where does everyone rate Alexis Arguello, srs...?

And why do you rate Floyd much different to Alexis?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Floyd would have beat Alexis handily.

Come at me.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :verysad
> 
> Reminds me of Tim Duncan's argument over Larry Bird, a player whom he just simply wasn't ever better than. I couldn't really care less what it would mean in regards to Floyd and it seems most here already rate BHop above as it is, but amongst this hardcore-casual core I won't enjoy seeing him placed above Whitaker. :lol: The same one with "the low output and no inside game" ?! :rofl Really though? I can't put any faith in that, and anybody who takes the time to register and regularly post on a boxing forum is certainly a hardcore fan.


There's never been enough love for Pea here.You can't really hope to have an argument with people who say that about his output.
I don't think Bernard can do anything to get a place over Pernell if you judge with the naked eye.
And that's the way I prefer to judge.The boxreccers can shoot me.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Floyd would have beat Alexis handily.
> 
> Come at me.


Arguello is one of my ATGs,but yes,Floyd most likely wins at 130.


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## PJ. (Jun 6, 2013)

probably is now anyway.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Arguello is one of my ATGs,but yes,Floyd most likely wins at 130.


I think Floyd beats him at 130, 135, and 140.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I think Floyd beats him at 130, 135, and 140.


Same as.

But is he greater? I'd say probably not.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Same as.
> 
> But is he greater? I'd say probably not.


Alexis Arguello's career is exemplary. He didn't sit still for a minute, whereas it seems like Mayweather has been doing just that for most of his career. Don't get me wrong, Floyd has achieved some pretty remarkable things and fought some very good fighters over his career, but Alexis continually challenged himself until he hit a brick wall. I wish every fighter took that approach.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I think Floyd beats him at 130, 135, and 140.


I think it's pretty safe to say that Arguello was probably well past his best days by the time he got to 135.
Don't mind giving Floyd a H2H win at 130,but the others for me personally,are like rating MAB at 130 and 135.
Ya get me?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Arguello was still real quality at those weights though. He was probably the best lightweight around when he was champ, and although it wasn't a great couple of years for the division it was still decent.

As for 140 he looked incredible against Pryor in the first fight, and even after that he knocked out former champ Costello. 

The 140 Arguello that fought Pryor in the first fight was better than anyone Floyd faced at 140 by some distance. 

And I'd say there's a real argument for Arguello being a better lightweight than JLC as well.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I think it's pretty safe to say that Arguello was probably well past his best days by the time he got to 135.
> Don't mind giving Floyd a H2H win at 130,but the others for me personally,are like rating MAB at 130 and 135.
> Ya get me?


I get you, breh. I agree.

It's besides your point I know, but MAB was a still damn good fighter at 130lbs. I think the Morales win was the best of his career, and I thought he ran Marquez awfully close despite the ridiculous scoring.



> Arguello was still real quality at those weights though. He was probably the best lightweight around when he was champ, and although it wasn't a great couple of years for the division it was still decent.


I wasn't impressed with Arguello against Mancini or Ganigan. He should have had Watt out of there too, but credit must be given to Watt for withstanding the punishment. He was well beaten.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I get you, breh. I agree.
> 
> It's besides your point I know, but MAB was a still damn good fighter at 130lbs. I think the Morales win was the best of his career, and I thought he ran Marquez awfully close despite the ridiculous scoring.
> 
> I wasn't impressed with Arguello against Mancini or Ganigan. He should have had Watt out of there too, but credit must be given to Watt for withstanding the punishment. He was well beaten.


Alexis was more hittable and his reflexes were dwindling but Ganigan was a deadly puncher and Mancini went on to show he was a world-level fighter.

He still finished both of those guys well.

As for Watt, well Watt was nails.

As I've said a few times before, Floyd wins with less hassle the further up in weight it goes.

I really don't want to provide yet another detailed analysis for a hypothetical bout for them at 130 but Floyd is a bad matchup for Arguello, but Arguello can cause him the same kinda' hassle that Castillo did at times in their first fight despite not being identical stylistically.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I get you, breh. I agree.
> 
> It's besides your point I know, but MAB was a still damn good fighter at 130lbs. I think the Morales win was the best of his career, and I thought he ran Marquez awfully close despite the ridiculous scoring.
> 
> I wasn't impressed with Arguello against Mancini or Ganigan. He should have had Watt out of there too, but credit must be given to Watt for withstanding the punishment. He was well beaten.


Totally with you on the 130 thing mate.I just meant that it's not the first place you want to look at the guy's ability.
It's just a personal gauge of mine when it comes to Arguello going in against Floyd.:good


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Nope, not if Floyd keeps fighting top welters. Kovalev hasn't even beaten anyone (and I'm a fan)

Whitaker > Benitez, and it's not close.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Nope, not if Floyd keeps fighting top welters. Kovalev hasn't even beaten anyone (and I'm a fan)
> 
> Whitaker > Benitez, and it's not close.


You badly underrate Campillo then.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You badly underrate Campillo then.


Campillo is alright, nothing to get particularly excited about IMO


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Whitaker > Benitez, and it's not close.


Does anybody dispute this?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Does anybody dispute this?


I believe it was @Bogotazo wondering, from my understanding.


----------



## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

You've got to place BHOP ahead of Manny Pac and Floyd really. Regardless of beating Kovalev. 

The guy is the Ultimate legend of our era.


----------



## BoxingJabsBlog (Sep 20, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I already rank Hopkins ahead of Floyd.


This is how I feel. I give Hopkins so much credit for continuing to challenge himself later in his career as opposed to easing into retirement. Its truly remarkable.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

*Mayweather - 5 weight champ, 2 weight champ simultaneously.*

Wins - Marquez, Mosley, Hernandez, Castillo, Corrales, Cotto, Ortiz, Judah, Hatton, Maidana, Canelo, Corley, Manfredy, Gatti, Delahoya

*Hopkins -2 weight champ, lengthy middleweight reign, oldest defending champion*

Wins - Trinidad, Johnson, Tarver, Kovalev, Pascal, Pavlik, Wright, Holmes, Delahoya, Mercado, Daniels, Cloud, Echols, Allen

I give the edge to Mayweather here, but of course I won't lose sleep if you have Hopkins higher. Depends on what you weigh the most.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Hopkins shoots ahead if he beats Kovalev - someone I rate.
> Floyd hasn't even beat ATG monsters. Are you going to give Hopkins stick for his loss to GOAT Jones Jr? Are you going to give Hopkins ridiculous stick for his 42 year old self losing to Joe Calzaghe the ATG - I rate Calzaghe extremely highly on a H2H level, I have him edging Ward.
> The only thorn that stands out on Hopkins' resume are his losses to Jermain Taylor. That shit pisses me off.
> But then again, Hopkins' middleweight resume is very weak.
> ...


The losses to Taylor, Calzaghe and Dawson suck. Even a past prime Hops shouldn't have lost to Taylor or Dawson :-( Do we hold it against him? Not in the grand scheme of things, still a legend.

When comparing him with guys around his ranking? It should be something to consider (Mayweather is unbeaten) if we're being fair here IMO


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> There's never been enough love for Pea here.You can't really hope to have an argument with people who say that about his output.
> I don't think Bernard can do anything to get a place over Pernell if you judge with the naked eye.
> And that's the way I prefer to judge.The boxreccers can shoot me.


In the right circles, he's judged fairly. Fair to me would be the greatest fighter of my lifetime (1987-on) :lol: There were a couple different threads done in which he couldn't crack the Top 3 in polls over that time span, so hopefully you can see why I'm a bit agitated and I'm sure @turbotime remembers what I'm talking about. To read things such as him having a negative, low volume output or lacking craft on the inside is more than woeful. You simply couldn't have seen him fight to drop that sort of nonsense.



Pedderrs said:


> Does anybody dispute this?


Page 2, though not an outright 'dispute' I guess.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Being a Top 5 ATG Lightweight (one of the most historically stacked divisions in history) was just the _groundwork_ Whitaker laid for his career. Think about that.


:think



turbotime said:


> I believe it was @Bogotazo wondering, from my understanding.


Yeah, I'm still going back and forth a bit with respect to top wins and the performances in each. Is it considered that clear cut? I'm willing to be convinced.

Cervantes at 17 years old, Duran at 154 pounds, Palomino at welter, Bruce Curry, a competitive loss to Ray Leonard...VS Chavez, McGirt, Vasquez, Nelson, Roger Mayweather, and a competitive past-prime loss to DLH.

Is it that clear cut?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

BTW I honestly don't think the Kovalev win would mean that much to his resume. It enhances his legacy for sure, but Kovalev hasn't really beaten anyone of note, as Turbo said. But that being said I think Hopkins edges Floyd with things as they are.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> In the right circles, he's judged fairly. Fair to me would be the greatest fighter of my lifetime (1987-on) :lol: There were a couple different threads done in which he couldn't crack the Top 3 in polls over that time span, so hopefully you can see why I'm a bit agitated and I'm sure @turbotime remembers what I'm talking about. To read things such as him having a negative, low volume output or lacking craft on the inside is more than woeful. You simply couldn't have seen him fight to drop that sort of nonsense.
> 
> Page 2, though not an outright 'dispute' I guess.


Who said that about Pea?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah, I'm still going back and forth a bit with respect to top wins and the performances in each. Is it considered that clear cut? I'm willing to be convinced.
> 
> Cervantes at 17 years old, Duran at 154 pounds, Palomino at welter, Bruce Curry, a competitive loss to Ray Leonard...VS Chavez, McGirt, Vasquez, Nelson, Roger Mayweather, and a competitive past-prime loss to DLH.
> 
> Is it that clear cut?


Palomino doesn't do a lot for me as a top win. Same with Curry, at best a mid-tier contender. Benitez probably has the best lone win vs Duran, mind.

Duran
Chavez 
Nelson
Cervantes
Vasquez
McGirt
Ramirez
Palomino
Mayweather

Curry.

Pea was also first to unify LW in how many years?Undersized and past his best managed wins vs guys like Hurtado, Rivera and gave Oskee all hell.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :think
> 
> Yeah, I'm still going back and forth a bit with respect to top wins and the performances in each. Is it considered that clear cut? I'm willing to be convinced.
> 
> ...


Spun absolute master classes on Jose Luis Ramirez and Greg Haugen as well (like, virtuoso performances), KO'ed Juan Nazario in 1, utterly embarrassed Nelson, won something like 10-2 against Chavez (outdoing him on the INSIDE) and pretty much beat McGirt down for the last 10 rounds in their rematch. In addition to just looking the better, more complete, more dominant fighter (IMO) I'd say absolutely brother.



PityTheFool said:


> Who said that about Pea?


I'm not trying to make anybody look bad.  I just wish people wouldn't give ill informed takes on things they aren't familiar with.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Palomino doesn't do a lot for me as a top win. Same with Curry, at best a mid-tier contender. Benitez probably has the best lone win vs Duran, mind.
> 
> Duran
> Chavez
> ...


Forgot Ramirez. It's like a big multi-layered sandwich!

I suppose with similar top wins, Whitaker wins out on depth. He has the superior wins at the tier below, which lends credit to his lightweight legacy. I need to watch more Whitaker, last time I really got into him was when debating Teeto :lol:

You put Nelson over Cervantes? I'm hurt.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Pea was also first to unify LW in how many years?Undersized and past his best managed wins vs guys like Hurtado, Rivera and gave Oskee all hell.


His LW reign - and granted it wasn't the greatest era - was simply impeccable in terms of fighting rated opposition with the title on the line. He beat a HUGE Handful of top of rated contenders in the span of just a few years in going undisputed.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Forgot Ramirez. It's like a big multi-layered sandwich!
> 
> I suppose with similar top wins, Whitaker wins out on depth. He has the superior wins at the tier below, which lends credit to his lightweight legacy. I need to watch more Whitaker, last time I really got into him was when debating Teeto :lol:
> 
> You put Nelson over Cervantes? I'm hurt.


Ehh? @Teeto


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Ehh? @Teeto


The competition from around a year ago.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Forgot Ramirez. It's like a big multi-layered sandwich!
> 
> I suppose with similar top wins, Whitaker wins out on depth. He has the superior wins at the tier below, which lends credit to his lightweight legacy. I need to watch more Whitaker, last time I really got into him was when debating Teeto :lol:
> 
> You put *Nelson over Cervantes? I'm hurt*.


:lol: Don't be a homer !


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> His LW reign - and granted it wasn't the greatest era - was simply impeccable in terms of fighting rated opposition with the title on the line. He beat a HUGE Handful of top of rated contenders in the span of just a few years in going undisputed.


And he was barely dropping rounds. He and Jones were labelled boring because well they were that damned good.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> :lol: Don't be a homer !


No seriously. Hands help :err


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> His LW reign - and granted it wasn't the greatest era - was simply impeccable in terms of fighting rated opposition with the title on the line. He beat a HUGE Handful of top of rated contenders in the span of just a few years in going undisputed.





Bogotazo said:


> No seriously. Hands help :err


Cervantes is a HOF'er no doubt - but he crushed a few too many cans for my liking (sun)


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Palomino doesn't do a lot for me as a top win. Same with Curry, at best a mid-tier contender. Benitez probably has the best lone win vs Duran, mind.
> 
> Duran
> Chavez
> ...


Palomino was the best welterweight at that time. A skilled boxer puncher with a savage body attack.

I have no doubt he was more skilled and accomplished when Benitez beat him then Canelo was when Floyd beat him.

For Benitez, Palomino is absolutely a top tier win.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Azumah Nelson? I'd have him above Cervantes for sure.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Anyone that says 'nun uh Cuevas was the man' you're sorely mistaken.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


Oh, fo'sho'.


----------



## Swollen Liver (Jun 8, 2013)

No doubt. B-Hop is all about risk and legacy. You have no choice but to the respect the guy. He has big balls. As for Mayweather, he's there to protect his "zero" by fighting names that are not dangerous for him. Only his die hard fans will defend him on this and he's laughing at their faces.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Oh, fo'sho'.


Is either in your top 100? I wouldn't think so...


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Fuck Cuevas :lol:


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

*"Pipino Cuevas can suck my dick!!!"*


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> No seriously. Hands help :err


_Here?_

:hi:

Are you convinced yet? :-( Page 5 shoulda done it.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Palomino was the best welterweight at that time. A skilled boxer puncher with a savage body attack.
> 
> I have no doubt he was more skilled and accomplished when Benitez beat him then Canelo was when Floyd beat him.
> 
> For Benitez, Palomino is absolutely a top tier win.


It's a top win for him because his resume isn't terribly deep. I am not sure that I'd rate the Palomino over the Canelo W though. Maybe, due to the catchweight and Canelo being quite young. Interesting :think


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> *"Pipino Cuevas can suck my dick!!!"*












RIP @john garfield

>>>> Bienstock


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> _Here?_
> 
> :hi:
> 
> Are you convinced yet? :-( Page 5 shoulda done it.


Yes I am convinced. Now please big up Pambele.


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> The competition from around a year ago.


What a fighter.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

No.

That's because Kovalev hasn't done anything yet. You've seen this a couple of times with B-Hop. He loses to Taylor, but it doesn't feel _too_ bad, because it feels like Taylor is the coming man. But he's not. So those loses hurt a bit more than they felt at the time. He batters Pavlik, which seems incredible, because Pavlik seems to be the man Taylor was only pretending to be. But he isn't, and is dumped by the wayside shortly thereafter. These things matter, even if you can say, "well Hopkins ruined them", which he might have.

In other words, if B-Hop beats Kovalev, retires, and Kovalev goes on to dominate for nine years, it might be OK to move Hopkin above Floyd based upon that win (I think it's close now) but if Kovalev goes 2-2 then moves up to cruiserweight for a middling career, no you can't.

So, don't know is the only answer IMO.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Is either in your top 100? I wouldn't think so...


Yeah, Azumah would probably make the last ten places.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> No.
> 
> That's because Kovalev hasn't done anything yet. You've seen this a couple of times with B-Hop. He loses to Taylor, but it doesn't feel _too_ bad, because it feels like Taylor is the coming man. But he's not. So those loses hurt a bit more than they felt at the time. He batters Pavlik, which seems incredible, because Pavlik seems to be the man Taylor was only pretending to be. But he isn't, and is dumped by the wayside shortly thereafter. These things matter, even if you can say, "well Hopkins ruined them", which he might have.
> 
> ...


How many fighters have beaten a top 3 ranked fighter at Hopkins' age?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yes I am convinced. Now please big up Pambele.


You seen Cervantes Vs Furuyama?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

This thread has been a joy to read.

But nah, whitaker is obviously above benitez resume-wise. Very clear to me. However its dumb to not consider Palomino a great win. That win is definitely real good, palomino is underrated overall.

Skill wise is an entirely different proposition and i think they are very close there.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> How many fighters have beaten a top 3 ranked fighter at Hopkins' age?


Very few, but beating Jersey Joe Walcott is obviously much more impressive than beating Red Burman, beating Evander Holyfield is very different to beating Michael Grant, etc. People are overwhelmed that he's agreed to match Kovalev, and I understand why, but if Kovalev turns out to be Burman/Grant - if it turns out he beat a fighter who was just another fighter, not as special as we all think he is - that isn't enough to make any meaningful changes in ATG style status.

Although I actually, I have them so close that a handful more of such wins might do it, presuming Mayweather doesn't also show excellent longevity.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

:deal :deal



McGrain said:


> No.
> 
> That's because Kovalev hasn't done anything yet. You've seen this a couple of times with B-Hop. He loses to Taylor, but it doesn't feel _too_ bad, because it feels like Taylor is the coming man. But he's not. So those loses hurt a bit more than they felt at the time. He batters Pavlik, which seems incredible, because Pavlik seems to be the man Taylor was only pretending to be. But he isn't, and is dumped by the wayside shortly thereafter. These things matter, even if you can say, "well Hopkins ruined them", which he might have.
> 
> ...


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Is either in your top 100? I wouldn't think so...


My dear friend it seems that you have Nelson and McCallum to brush up on :nono


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> My dear friend it seems that you have Nelson and McCallum to brush up on :nono


And brushing up on McCallum is like seeing The Godfather II for the first time.
And rarely has such an unfancied fighter put on a performance against a justifiably deified fighter like Chava the way Nelson did given how early he was into his career.

You can always find time to brush up on Johnny Nelson too if it's thrill a minute fights you like.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> And brushing up on McCallum is like seeing The Godfather II for the first time.
> And rarely has such an unfancied fighter put on a performance against a justifiably deified fighter like Chava the way Nelson did given how early he was into his career.
> 
> You can always find time to brush up on Johnny Nelson too if it's thrill a minute fights you like.


Nelson fought amazingly vs Sanchez at such a young age! I loved the fights with Fenech as well :yep Dare I say he is even more forgotten than McCallum is?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> And brushing up on McCallum is like seeing The Godfather II for the first time.


:rofl :rofl Oh my god.

:deal


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl :rofl Oh my god.
> 
> :deal


I'm here all week!:smile (and probably the next :sad5)


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Nelson fought amazingly vs Sanchez at such a young age! I loved the fights with Fenech as well :yep


When you consider the tough road a lot of African fighters had to take and ended up not fulfilling their potential,Nelson didn't half snatch some kudos from the jaws of defeat when he got half a chance.

Now,there's always Ayube to challenge Floyd at 154 (sorry,wrong thread)


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> When you consider the tough road a lot of African fighters had to take and ended up not fulfilling their potential,Nelson didn't half snatch some kudos from the jaws of defeat when he got half a chance.
> 
> Now,there's always Ayube to challenge Floyd at 154 (sorry,wrong thread)


Ayube, mccallum and norris all beat floyd at 154. Same with griffith.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> And he was barely dropping rounds. He and Jones were labelled boring because well they were that damned good.


<3

You've delivered in this thread too.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> <3
> 
> You've delivered in this thread too.


 Any time I get the chance to big up my loved ones I will !


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Ayube, mccallum and norris all beat floyd at 154. Same with griffith.


:lol:

You're loving that thread Tommy! I just got worn out by it when it becomes clear no amount of constructive argument will make a difference.
And your vcash is a disgrace! You need to learn the sport son.(A prick actually said that to me on YouTube for saying SRL beats Floyd.)
I was even polite about it!


----------



## Felix (Mar 13, 2013)

Cableaddict said:


> On my own personal all-time list, Hopkins is already ahead of Floyd.
> 
> 
> Absolutely no question.
> ...


If Hopkins loses to Kovalev he shouldn't gain ranking. That makes no sense. It's like you're giving him ranking credits for simply taking the fight.

Never took a cheap shot? Except that time he rolled around vs Calzaghe feigning a low blow because he couldn't keep up. Oh, and the Dawson fight. But otherwise yeah.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> When you consider the tough road a lot of African fighters had to take and ended up not fulfilling their potential,Nelson didn't half snatch some kudos from the jaws of defeat when he got half a chance.
> 
> Now,there's always Ayube to challenge Floyd at 154 (sorry,wrong thread)


Screw that thread :lol: Nothing more than an outlet for Floyd haters to speculate/wank about Mayweather losing.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Rexrapper 1 said:


> He is already higher on my list.


There you are. We need to get the SRL vs. Hagler debate going.

BTW, I also have B-hop higher than Floyd.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Screw that thread :lol: Nothing more than an outlet for Floyd haters to speculate/wank about Mayweather losing.


Is there really anything that crazy in that thread besides tilang? I get you are a floyd fan but its not so crazy to see floyd losing against other ATGs


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Is there really anything that crazy in that thread besides tilang? I get you are a floyd fan but its not so crazy to see floyd losing against other ATGs


I can pick a lot of ATGs over other ATGs in their 4th and 5th weight classes


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> My dear friend it seems that you have Nelson and McCallum to brush up on :nono


McCallum a G. Nelson I need to watch more of, same for both though.



Flea Man said:


> Yeah, Azumah would probably make the last ten places.


0 Colombian ATG's then.

I see how it is brahs. I see.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> McCallum a G. Nelson I need to watch more of, same for both though.
> 
> 0 Colombian ATG's then.
> 
> I see how it is brahs. I see.


You're an atg in my book!


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You seen Cervantes Vs Furuyama?


Yep, and I believe it was you who recommended it that time. Should watch it again.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> You're an atg in my book!


<3


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I can pick a lot of ATGs over other ATGs in their 4th and 5th weight classes


Thats true. At super feather and 140 i pick few over him, rightully so


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> McCallum a G. Nelson I need to watch more of, same for both though.
> 
> 0 Colombian ATG's then.
> 
> I see how it is brahs. I see.


No,no!
Jimmy Rodriguez has ATG potential.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> His LW reign - and granted it wasn't the greatest era - was simply impeccable in terms of fighting rated opposition with the title on the line. He beat a HUGE Handful of top of rated contenders in the span of just a few years in going undisputed.





Hands of Iron said:


> <3
> 
> You've delivered in this thread too.





tommygun711 said:


> Thats true. At super feather and 140 i pick few over him, rightully so


Regardless, theres been excellent posting in this thread :smoke *pats everyone on the back*


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> No,no!
> Jimmy Rodriguez has ATG potential.


Jimmy :rofl

Well on that front we already have El Pibe.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo





turbotime said:


> Regardless, theres been excellent posting in this thread :smoke *pats everyone on the back*


Whitaker just has a very slick combination of colossal skills and in-ring ability, great top wins, a deep record overall by modern standards across numerous divisions, top level dominance, virtuoso performances and career achievements out the yin-yang.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> The losses to Taylor, Calzaghe and Dawson suck. Even a past prime Hops shouldn't have lost to Taylor or Dawson :-( Do we hold it against him? Not in the grand scheme of things, still a legend.
> 
> When comparing him with guys around his ranking? It should be something to consider (Mayweather is unbeaten) if we're being fair here IMO


I had no doubt that Dawson would beat Hopkins, but this Taylor debacle man, fuck that shit. 
I sincerely have Floyd 44-1-1 so I can't judge him the way you do.

Hey everybody, Hopkins win over Pavlik is overrated.



Bogotazo said:


> :think
> 
> Yeah, I'm still going back and forth a bit with respect to top wins and the performances in each. Is it considered that clear cut? I'm willing to be convinced.
> 
> ...


Benitez is a weird one and we can never really know his true ranking or potential for that matter. We don't know the extent to which he always used to undertrain. I don't want to piss on Benitez's win over Duran but Duran wasn't looking good on fight night, pretty slow and out of shape, killer instinct somewhat lacking at 154lbs yet Benitez does a great job - the backstory with Benitez is that he never used to really train either. 
Pea's resume definitely beats Benitez.

A past-prime even fight with DLH is more accurate than competitive loss past prime fight. If people say Whitaker won, I have no problem agreeing, no clear cut winner there. Prime DLH is an absolute monster.



Bogotazo said:


> BTW I honestly don't think the Kovalev win would mean that much to his resume. It enhances his legacy for sure, but Kovalev hasn't really beaten anyone of note, as Turbo said. But that being said I think Hopkins edges Floyd with things as they are.


Time will tell. Kovalev is at the certain age where he's not really going to be getting much better and Kovalev can go on to do decent things and prove himself a H2H brute. He's ridiculously heavy handed and very clinical with his offence, I see him doing well but then again, 174lbs is full of top prospects now who will be at the top of the world scene by 2 years, Kovalev doesn't have it easy.



turbotime said:


> Palomino doesn't do a lot for me as a top win. Same with Curry, at best a mid-tier contender. Benitez probably has the best lone win vs Duran, mind.
> Duran
> Chavez
> Nelson
> ...


I definitely rate the Cervantes win over the Nelson win. Cervantes one of my fave fighters - the main differential being Wilfried's age at 17. Zac Efron even looked aged playing a 17 year old in 17 again, damn, Wilfried was 17. Nelson was a little too small and didn't have the style to worry Pea, easy work. Granted, Cervantes didn't particular either. Man I just love Wilfried Benitez, his left jabs are annoying as fuck, so relentless and he's so accurate with them.

Palomino is deffo a top win. I put him above Jose Luis Ramirez without a doubt...prime McGirt was actually a beast I'm inclined to put Palomino there too.



Flea Man said:


> Azumah Nelson? I'd have him above Cervantes for sure.


Cervantes is boss, I'm not too sure he makes Top 100 although I can't rule it out, one of my faves.



PityTheFool said:


> And brushing up on McCallum is like seeing The Godfather II for the first time.


I have only seen 2 fights of McCallum, the 80's-early 90's era in general I just never have seen the appeal in it although it's stacked as fuck. I will definitely be watching McCallum's fights as it's a style that interests me and HEY, I've never seen any of the Godfather's. May just start today.

As for Johnny Nelson you mention - I'm actually considering getting his autobiography over ANY boxer that has ever been because of how weird his resume is, and seems a sound dude.



tommygun711 said:


> Ayube, mccallum and norris all beat floyd at 154. Same with griffith.


Griffith especially at 154lbs definitely got dis.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Pea's amateur career gives me mixed feelings. His Olympic Gold medal dare I say was earned pretty easily (because of the opposition), but yet....Pea is 4-1 against one of the GOATs Angel Herrera.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I definitely rate the Cervantes win over the Nelson win. Cervantes one of my fave fighters - the main differential being Wilfried's age at 17. Zac Efron even looked aged playing a 17 year old in 17 again, damn, Wilfried was 17. Nelson was a little too small and didn't have the style to worry Pea, easy work. Granted, Cervantes didn't particular either. Man I just love Wilfried Benitez, his left jabs are annoying as fuck, so relentless and he's so accurate with them.
> 
> Palomino is deffo a top win. I put him above Jose Luis Ramirez without a doubt...prime McGirt was actually a beast I'm inclined to put Palomino there too.
> 
> ...


Christ, Cervantes is one of your faves but you don't see any appeal in the late 80s and early 90s guys?! :-(

You'll never convince me Palomino is as good a win as Ramirez or better. Whitaker had what, 14 fights when he schooled him up and got robbed so King could have his Chavez/Ramirez fight? Nelson is tiers greater than Cervantes and when it's said and done, it's just the better scalp.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> <3
> 
> You've delivered in this thread too.





Hands of Iron said:


> Whitaker just has a very slick combination of colossal skills and in-ring ability, great top wins, a deep record overall by modern standards across numerous divisions, top level dominance, virtuoso performances and career achievements out the yin-yang.


Like Gaul said, helluva amateur too.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Floyd would have beat Alexis handily.
> 
> Come at me. I think Floyd beats him at 130, 135, and 140.
> Alexis Arguello's career is exemplary. He didn't sit still for a minute, whereas it seems like Mayweather has been doing just that for most of his career. Don't get me wrong, Floyd has achieved some pretty remarkable things and fought some very good fighters over his career, but Alexis continually challenged himself until he hit a brick wall. I wish every fighter took that approach.


I cannot fathom an Arguello victory, especially not at 35 and 40. 
I don't know if I'm biased for Arguello but I give absolutely no weighting to the losses he had when he was developing as a youngen.
Although I don't really rate a corpse Legra KO1 either. 
I wonder if I'm the only one in the world that rates Pascualito. Dude never gets love, it was a good victory of the up and coming Arguello against a veteran with underrated ring smarts abbycry
Everyone overrates the green-ness of Arguello of the Marcel fight, honestly.
He didn't sit still for a minute but that's not really that much of a point considering every other fight he takes on journeymen. He still took on everybody, something that Floyd would never do. 
I just wish he was a faster mover.
Alexis woulda fucked Vilomar if it was a 15 rounder, spread the story.



Flea Man said:


> Arguello was still real quality at those weights though. He was probably the best lightweight around when he was champ, and although it wasn't a great couple of years for the division it was still decent.
> 
> As for 140 he looked incredible against Pryor in the first fight, and even after that he knocked out former champ Costello.
> 
> ...


Floyd didn't do shit at 140..nothing to see there. No doubt Argz at 140lbs was better than his opponents. Gatti, Corley, Bruseles in whatever order. Time to hide under a rock. 
I just can't see Arguello being the better LW.

Muddafucker Pryor was on that mixed bottle shit in the first fight, why the flying fuck is that not a NC! I don't really give Pryor much credit at all for his second victory over Args. Scott Walker can fuck off.

After fighting for Floyd last year, I am of the opinion that Arguello JUST pips Floyd as GOAT SFW where greatness is concerned.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo





turbotime said:


> Christ, Cervantes is one of your faves but you don't see any appeal in the late 80s and early 90s guys?! :-(
> 
> You'll never convince me Palomino is as good a win as Ramirez or better. Whitaker had what, 14 fights when he schooled him up and got robbed so King could have his Chavez/Ramirez fight? Nelson is tiers greater than Cervantes and when it's said and done, it's just the better scalp.


Nelson just might be my favorite Pea performance. There's a good few to choose from.

Nelson, Chavez, McGirt and DLH were his highly rated P4P guys at the times he fought them (aside from Tito as well but Whitaker was already coked out and severely diminished; went the distance with a broken jaw) and all at fairly favorable ages. Vasquez was Top 2 at LMW and one of the better of the decade.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Christ, Cervantes is one of your faves but you don't see any appeal in the late 80s and early 90s guys?! :-(
> 
> You'll never convince me Palomino is as good a win as Ramirez or better. Whitaker had what, 14 fights when he schooled him up and got robbed so King could have his Chavez/Ramirez fight? Nelson is tiers greater than Cervantes and when it's said and done, it's just the better scalp.


Just generally speaking. The whole Toney era, the Starling era - I feel I need to be paid to be motivated to watch these dudes other than McCallum.

Fair doos.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Vasquez was Top 2 at LMW and one of the better of the decade.


Underrated to shit.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Yeah, he becomes p4p 1 now too tbh


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nelson just might be my favorite Pea performance. There's a good few to choose from.
> 
> Nelson, Chavez, McGirt and DLH were his highly rated P4P guys at the times he fought them (aside from Tito as well but Whitaker was already coked out and severely diminished; went the distance with a broken jaw) and all at fairly favorable ages. Vasquez was Top 2 at LMW and one of the better of the decade.





The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Underrated to shit.


People actually give pea more credit for keeping Oskee close than the friggen schooling of Vasquez!


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> People actually give pea more credit for keeping Oskee close than the friggen schooling of Vasquez!


A basically undefeated vasquez as well


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> A basically undefeated vasquez as well


Take into the fact Pea was around my size with less power :yep and it's amazing


----------



## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Christ, Cervantes is one of your faves but you don't see any appeal in the late 80s and early 90s guys?! :-(
> 
> You'll never convince me Palomino is as good a win as Ramirez or better. Whitaker had what, 14 fights when he schooled him up and got robbed so King could have his Chavez/Ramirez fight? Nelson is tiers greater than Cervantes and when it's said and done, it's just the better scalp.


Palomino was right at his peak when he fought Benitez, Ramirez had been on the decline for years.

I'm not a big supporter of either, but i've no doubt a peak Palomino was a better win than a 88\89 Ramirez.Jose luis was a good fighter from 80-84\85'ish, though still of the level where he was capable of being totally dominated by Ray Mancini....after that he was pretty limited and was never a convincing lightweight champ, being moved into safe fights against Terrence Ali(who gives him a tough time anyway) and a faded Boza Edwards.By the time he lost to Pea he was like a sloth in the ring and not going to hang onto that title for long even without his gifts and money-making old pals act with Chavez.

Don't get me wrong the first fight was still a good performance and should have been a good win considering Pea didn't have many fights, but ramirez was several notches below a peak Palomino by then as a fighter and probably not as good even at his peak.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Palomino was a great win for benitez, and especially the way he DOMINATED Carlos. It has to be considered a great win.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bill Jincock said:


> Palomino was right at his peak when he fought Benitez, Ramirez had been on the decline for years.
> 
> I'm not a big supporter of either, but i've no doubt a peak Palomino was a better win than a 88\89 Ramirez.Jose luis was a good fighter from 80-84\85'ish, though still of the level where he was capable of being totally dominated by Ray Mancini....after that he was pretty limited and was never a convincing lightweight champ, being moved into safe fights against Terrence Ali(who gives him a tough time anyway) and a faded Boza Edwards.By the time he lost to Pea he was like a sloth in the ring and not going to hang onto that title for long even without his gifts and money-making old pals act with Chavez.
> 
> Don't get me wrong the first fight was still a good performance and should have been a good win considering Pea didn't have many fights, but ramirez was several notches below a peak Palomino by then as a fighter and probably not as good even at his peak.


Palomino was at his peak yet he lost twice then retired ?! The Palomino who was struggling with some cabbies ? But you want to hold losses against Ramirez when Palomino's record isn't exactly sterling and had shit longevity. It's a great win as far as Benitez' resume is concerned due to its shallowness


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Take into the fact Pea was around my size with less power :yep and it's amazing


Yeah a very noticeable size difference from that fight. Great achievement.


----------



## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Palomino was at his peak yet he lost twice then retired ?! The Palomino who was struggling with some cabbies ? But you want to hold losses against Ramirez when Palomino's record isn't exactly sterling and had shit longevity. It's a great win as far as Benitez' resume is concerned due to its shallowness


He lost Benitez and Duran because they were better than him.That he subsequently decided to retire has nothing to do with anything tbh.

i can't see how anyone can dispute Palomino was not at his peak.

This is just comparing Palomino and Ramirez here man.Ramirez was on his last legs by the end of the eighties.What you say about it being a great win for Benitez because of a shallow record may be true to a stage, but you can hardly say the Ramirez wins are anything different for pea.Wins against clearly in decline, always pretty limited fighter like Ramirez wouldn't be brought up anywhere near as much if he had a truly deep record either.But post-60s fight records are what they are, just not as much time to fight tons of good fighters and i see no need to criticise either really.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bill Jincock said:


> He lost Benitez and Duran because they were better than him.That he subsequently decided to retire has nothing to do with anything tbh.
> 
> i can't see how anyone can dispute Palomino was not at his peak.
> 
> This is just comparing Palomino and Ramirez here man.Ramirez was on his last legs by the end of the eighties.What you say about it being a great win for Benitez because of a shallow record may be true to a stage, but you can hardly say the Ramirez wins are anything different for pea.Wins against clearly in decline, always pretty limited fighter like Ramirez wouldn't be brought up anywhere near as much if he had a truly deep record either.But post-60s fight records are what they are, just not as much time to fight tons of good fighters and i see no need to criticise either really.


Ramirez is a lower tier win as far as his wins are concerned IMO Pea had excellent depth to his resume, you have a lot to choose from looking at his résumé and his dominant performances.

When we get down to true ATG fighters I feel that small critiques are justified in order to separate these guys. I wouldn't take these types of critiques to heart


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Muahaha look what I've done.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Muahaha look what I've done.


Reported for trollism


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Ramirez is a lower tier win as far as his wins are concerned IMO Pea had excellent depth to his resume, you have a lot to choose from looking at his résumé and his dominant performances.
> 
> When we get down to true ATG fighters I feel that small critiques are justified in order to separate these guys. I wouldn't take these types of critiques to heart


Yeah it was a lower tier (for him) but still a good win where the top fighters are concerned.
Ramirez was past it by Whitaker doe and should have lost against someone very late in his career (honestly don't remember who cos I watched well over a year ago).
Rumour has it Jose Luis Ramirez was also given gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Ramirez is a lower tier win as far as his wins are concerned IMO Pea had excellent depth to his resume, you have a lot to choose from looking at his résumé and his dominant performances.
> 
> When we get down to true ATG fighters I feel that small critiques are justified in order to separate these guys. I wouldn't take these types of critiques to heart


Ramirez is only a 'top tier' win (actually two wins) for Pea where his 135 record is concerned, not really his career as a whole.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yeah it was a lower tier (for him) but still a good win where the top fighters are concerned.
> Ramirez was past it by Whitaker doe and should have lost against someone very late in his career (honestly don't remember who cos I watched well over a year ago).
> Rumour has it Jose Luis Ramirez was also given gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.


Ramirez past it, Whitaker green :deal


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

I think I like the Nazario W more 



Hands of Iron said:


> Ramirez is only a 'top tier' win (actually two wins) for Pea where his 135 record is concerned, not really his career as a whole.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I think I like the Nazario W more


Aye, hardest punch ever thrown in lightweight history. :hey


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Aye, hardest punch ever thrown in lightweight history. :hey


HBO were shocked :lol: Pea a G


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Take into the fact Pea was around my size with less power :yep and it's amazing


:lol: Little dwarf.

Oh, right... :verysad


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: Little dwarf.
> 
> Oh, right... :verysad


:rofl

I've gained weight this summer. Not good weight either :-(


----------



## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

Bhop a G beats that handwraps thug Felix Trinidad a guy in his third weight class whose only real ability lies in his power. Great Win. Great great win. Bhop a G.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :rofl
> 
> I've gained weight this summer. Not good weight either :-(


You and Flea both. You know what happened, you guys turned 25 didn't you?

We're all little fucking midgets on here. I get along well with my own kind in that way I guess. :lol: You, @PityTheFool @Flea Man @Zopilote ... I don't know if @Pedderrs is as well but I don't remember him being too incredibly imposing.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> You and Flea both. You know what happened, you guys turned 25 didn't you?
> 
> We're all little fucking midgets on here. I get along well with my own kind in that way I guess. :lol: You, @PityTheFool @Flea Man @Zopilote ... I don't know if @Pedderrs is as well but I don't remember him being too incredibly imposing.


5'8. 151lbs.

I can throw good combinations though after years of shadowboxing. Size isn't everything.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> 5'8. 151lbs.
> 
> I can throw good combinations though after years of shadowboxing. Size isn't everything.


Certainly isn't. :deal

I've lost a sizable amount of quickness having gone the musclebound route. I don't involve myself in a great deal of physical confrontations these days anyway (like none) though I haven't trained for years now. It's all weight lifting.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You and Flea both. You know what happened, you guys turned 25 didn't you?
> 
> We're all little fucking midgets on here. I get along well with my own kind in that way I guess. :lol: You, @PityTheFool @Flea Man @Zopilote ... I don't know if @Pedderrs is as well but I don't remember him being too incredibly imposing.


A combination of a lot of things. A lot of parties. A LOT. Like, all day events just eating like shit and drinking and not exercising. I feel sluggish, it sucks but I've been trying to get it back :ibutt


----------



## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

You guys are fat.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> A combination of a lot of things. A lot of parties. A LOT. Like, all day events just eating like shit and drinking and not exercising. I feel sluggish, it sucks but I've been trying to get it back :ibutt


Metabolism slows.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

the cobra said:


> You guys are fat.


How do you like this all out *Pernell Whitaker* thread over the previous 10 pages?


----------



## Rexrapper 1 (Jun 4, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> There you are. We need to get the SRL vs. Hagler debate going.
> 
> BTW, I also have B-hop higher than Floyd.


Alright let's go.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

No. Mayweather has greater depth and better top wins

Only way you could favor Hopkins is age but the light heavyweight division is awful.


Maidana is far more accomplished than Kovalev


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> People actually give pea more credit for keeping Oskee close than the friggen schooling of Vasquez!


He didn't school Vasquez.


----------



## BoxingJabsBlog (Sep 20, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> No. Mayweather has greater depth and better top wins
> 
> Only way you could favor Hopkins is age but the light heavyweight division is awful.
> 
> Maidana is far more accomplished than Kovalev


Isnt floyd from Michigan? Floyd is that you?!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> He didn't school Vasquez.


I was perfectly fine with that going uncorrected. :lol: :twisted

(I didn't quote it or go Mmhmm either though)


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

....So this has become a 5'8 and under group now, that makes you all racist. Reported.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> No. Mayweather has greater depth and better top wins
> 
> Only way you could favor Hopkins is age but the light heavyweight division is awful.
> 
> Maidana is far more accomplished than Kovalev


Its going to be a huge win, MW.

1. Kovalev has more power than Maidana. 
2. Bernard is virtually 50 and this is to become unified champ
3. Kovalev IS a top fighter, I don't care if anyone says he's untested, he's knocked pretty good opponents out of the water with ease. 
4. Kovalev may go on to prove himself to be elite..I think he's arguably the 10th hardest fighter to face from a H2H perspective as things stand.

But...
Kovalev has competition from Adonis Stevenson (overrated and going to hell), Amateur Greats Mekhontsev and Beterbiev (biggest puncher to cross over from Olympic background arguably, who is fighting Tavoris Cloud in his 6th pro fight next month, a month apart from his previous fight so Beterbiev isn't even having a full pro training camp) there are some others but I forgot. So within 2 years boxing at 174lbs will be scary.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Say what you want about Vasquez, he has returned safely to the ocean to enjoy the rest of his days


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Its going to be a huge win, MW.
> 
> 1. Kovalev has more power than Maidana.
> 2. Bernard is virtually 50 and this is to become unified champ
> ...


Sung Kil Moon is the biggest puncher to cross over from an Olympic background.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Sung Kil Moon is the biggest puncher to cross over from an Olympic background.


Arguably. 
Moon was still during the times of no headgear and point scoring was different then - two big factors, the latter being the more significant that blurs this view more. 
Respect to Beterbiev, would fuck people up at LHW and HW (cruiser).


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> ....So this has become a 5'8 and under group now, that makes you all racist. Reported.


Loma is on near-midget status with the rest of us though.  Too bad we don't have his skills huh.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Arguably.
> Moon was still during the times of no headgear and point scoring was different then - two big factors, the latter being the more significant that blurs this view more.
> Respect to Beterbiev, would fuck people up at LHW and HW (cruiser).


Fair points.

Moon did wear headgear at times though. Still a devastator.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Loma is on near-midget status with the rest of us though.  Too bad we don't have his skills huh.


I remember when I went to Bangladesh 10 years ago, the average height of an adult male was like 5'4, women were 4'11, or 5'0. Fun fact. 
Edit: btw Lomatardism has spread, you have to pay to see the rest of the article (something I'll never do lol) but this guy sounds like he's too scared to say Loma is better than Mayweather but deep down he really thinks that. 
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/article4169570.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_08_07



Flea Man said:


> Fair points.
> 
> Moon did wear headgear at times though. Still a devastator.


Ohhh nice! 
I could only stand 2 minutes of that fight, rumour has it Shannon is still running in that ring today. 
People have overstated knockout records though outside of major amateur tournaments.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I remember when I went to Bangladesh 10 years ago, the average height of an adult male was like 5'4, women were 4'11, or 5'0. Fun fact.
> Edit: btw Lomatardism has spread, you have to pay to see the rest of the article (something I'll never do lol) but this guy sounds like he's too scared to say Loma is better than Mayweather but deep down he really thinks that.
> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/article4169570.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_08_07
> 
> ...


Well, Moon was the World Amateur champ. Think he stopped a few peeps there as well.

Guy was extremely heavy handed, and had an iron chin. Fought exactly the same as an amateur as he did as a pro.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Well, Moon was the World Amateur champ. Think he stopped a few peeps there as well.
> 
> Guy was extremely heavy handed, and had an iron chin. Fought exactly the same as an amateur as he did as a pro.


I like Moon's style very much tbh, it's not surprising seeing his KO record is that good at elite amateur level considering how often and how well he places his power punches. A good trap setter (but my opinion is not concrete, I've only seen 2 of his fights in the past).


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I like Moon's style very much tbh, it's not surprising seeing his KO record is that good at elite amateur level considering how often and how well he places his power punches. A good trap setter (but my opinion is not concrete, I've only seen 2 of his fights in the past).


Yeah, he's one of the smarter Neanderthal-clubber types.

Loved to wing though. And if he was winging, get the fuck out of the way!


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> No. Mayweather has greater depth and better top wins
> 
> Only way you could favor Hopkins is age but the light heavyweight division is awful.
> 
> Maidana is far more accomplished than Kovalev


Bringin' the ether :deal


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Vasquez fight was not close.



Hands of Iron said:


> How do you like this all out *Pernell Whitaker* thread over the previous 10 pages?


----------



## UnleashtheFURY (May 5, 2014)

BHOP already ranks much higher than Floyd....


----------



## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How do you like this all out *Pernell Whitaker* thread over the previous 10 pages?


I love all things Pernell Whitaker. His fights, threads about his fights, his cocaine, etc.

Ah, the cocaine.:baz


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> The Vasquez fight was not close.


A lot of people disagree, especially with the point deductions. I felt Pea got much the better of it, but had it a draw with the deductions.

Great performance, but not at all a 'schooling'.


----------



## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

The impossible?

Kovalev is a beast, but he's hardly the monster he's made out to be, he's been crushing cans.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> A lot of people disagree, especially with the point deductions. I felt Pea got much the better of it, but had it a draw with the deductions.
> 
> Great performance, but not at all a 'schooling'.


Fucking Pea dickin about with his hands down :lol: The only thing that keeps me from ranking him the defensive GOAT was his irresponsibility.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr Magic said:


> The impossible?
> 
> Kovalev is a beast, but he's hardly the monster he's made out to be, he's been crushing cans.


Again, Campillo is not a can. He's not infallible, but he was undoubtedly World class and people in the know knew he was a op-5 fighter when Kovalev beat him.

He got bad decisions in a fair few fights, including the Cloud and Murat fights before Kovalev got to him.

In fact, he beat two of Hopkins' recent scalps way before he did. In fact, in beating Shumenov, Cloud and Murat, Hopkins was merely going over Campillo's old ground.

And what do ya' know, Kovalev battered him. Not the first to do so, but beat Campillo when he was in the midst of his best run.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Fucking Pea dickin about with his hands down :lol: The only thing that keeps me from ranking him the defensive GOAT was his irresponsibility.


Yeah, I agree. A few knockdowns could've been avoided. Roger Mayweather for instance. No shame in that though, most people nowadays don't remember what a savage puncher Uncle Rog' was.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Again, Campillo is not a can. He's not infallible, but he was undoubtedly World class and people in the know knew he was a op-5 fighter when Kovalev beat him.
> 
> He got bad decisions in a fair few fights, including the Cloud and Murat fights before Kovalev got to him.
> 
> ...


Campillo isnt shit. Getting robbed against Cloud doesnt mean shit because Cloud is shit. Same goes for Murat and Shumenov

Woeful division.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Tito-just beat Vargas and destroyed Joppy, looking unaffected by the weight gain; B-Hop becomes the first undisputed world middleweight champion since Marvin Hagler in 1987
Oscar-Hopkins had a size advantage but this was a young Oscar, and Hopkins came in light to prove a point
Pavlik-undefeated KO artist, had just beaten Taylor twice, Hopkins was 43, Kelly 26
Tarver-coming off wins over Johnson and Jones, Hopkins first moves up to LHW; Hopkins was 41
Pascal-the lineal champion after thoroughly beating Dawson, athletic fighter; Hopkins breaks George Foreman's record to become the oldest champion in history
Winky-hadn't lost in 8 years, Hopkins spoils and outhustles him 
Johnson- in his prime; always a test for the elites in and around the division
Cloud-athletic titleholder with wins over Johnson, Woods, and a disputed win over Gabriel Campillo; Hopkins breaks his own record to become the oldest champion at 48
Jones-pretty much shot, Hopkins avenges his infamous loss; shit fight
Shumenov/Murat-Decent but unspecial fighters; Hopkins breaks the record to become oldest to defend a title 
And close losses you might count as wins against Taylor (best jab in the division at the time) and Calzaghe (considered the ATG Super Middleweight)

Hopkins achieved record for Middleweight title defenses, breaking Monzon's record, and won several Light-Heavyweight Championship titles. 

VS

Castillo-HOFer, quality win, especially in the rematch, leaving no questoin
Corrales-great KO and performance as the underdog against a HOFer; special night 
Cotto-solid win against a future HOFer, just came off a good win in style against former conquerer Margarito 
Hatton-undefeated swarmer who ruled 140 moving up in weight to welter
Oscar-old but still game and heavy-handed, Floyd moved up to 154 and wore heavyweight 10oz gloves
Shane-ATG, 38, beat Margarito lopsidedly 16 months prior 
Canelo-a big boy who had just beaten Trout and had Mexico behind him
JMM-master counter-puncher, Pacquiao's kryptonite, moved straight up to welter from lightweight, virtual shut-out
Judah-extremely talented counter-punching southpaw, always tested elite fighters, never had the mental strength for more
Maidana-extremely awkward, hungry, heavy-handed fighter, within the top 10 of the division after beating Broner for his title 

Floyd won titles in 5 different divisions, spanning from Super-Featherweight to Junior Middleweight.

I think I give the edge to Hopkins. Floyd has a slight edge on depth, Hopkins a slight edge on big wins, and he made history with his victories as a continuous underdog and record-breaker. Kovalev would give him another slight edge.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Floyd has more depth in the W column and I don't even have to think about it, really.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Mayweather vs Alexis Arguello on P4P rankings:
Arguello: 126, 130, 135, 140 - but has decent wins at 122
Mayweather: 130, 135, 140, 147, 154
Nothing highly extensive in the spoilers, just looks long.


Spoiler



122: 
Alexis also has wins against Pascualito who still had something left in the tank, and Octavia Gomez. Two good wins, more so the latter. 
Alexis has a clear loss against Marcel.

126:
Hafey, Leonel (tricky), Olivares, Riasco, Kobayashi, host of tricky top level journeymen, fringe contenders. Did he even deserve the nod against Torres? Don't get hyped, it aint THE Jose Torres.

130: After much thought I had Arguello pipping Mayweather to the top spot at SFW with one extra decent name on his resume.

135: Arguello lost to Vilomar Fernandez in a 10 rounder. We know Arguello usually gets better as the fight goes on, so the last 5 rounds have stolen a good chunk of Arguello's competitive advantage. Yet, it's a loss. Arguello went on avenge his loss at 140.
Mayweather debated win to Jose Luis Castillo. So we can sit there and say Arguello was only in a 10 rounder and it was close, but then we should also say Mayweather was in a very close fight too and had torn his rotator cuff. Yet Mayweather does beat him fair and square later on. And guess what? JLC is a monster, Vilomar isn't.
Ndou and Sosa - contenders. Ndou still is a hard hitting livewire though.

Arguello's run of wins at 135 - Boza-Edwards, Mancini, Watt, Ganigan, Ramirez (one of the more overrated guys today), a couple of decent contenders. 
I actually really like a prime Boom Boom Mancini. Ganigan is overrated. Overall, this is a good winning streak, not great by any means.

140:
NC against Pryor - definitely not giving Pryor credit for that win due to the mixed-bottle shit. 
Avenged loss to Vilomar.
Past prime at this point obviously, even by the first fight against Pryor, he loses to Pryor.
Costello - a forgotten, good name on Arguello's resume.

Mayweather at 140 - Chop Chop Corley was alright you know, he weathered the hard hitting Bailey storm. Bruseles was like some fringe contender. Gatti's nothing to get excited over either but come on, he's not that bad either. We give credit to Arguello over the Riasco win, let's do the same here.

147:
Mitchell (underrated), Judah, Baldomir lol
Hatton
Marquez - erm..
Past Prime Mosley
Ortiz
Guerrero
Maidana - arguably a draw
- this is better than the work that Arguello got done at 135lbs

154: 
Past prime Oscar, giving up 4lb weight on the scales.
Cotto - the MW champ who was just 1lb heavier on the scales against Martinez - Cotto is a HOF. This goes down as a great win.
Canelo - the top 154lber who didn't have the style to worry Mayweather, but yet outside Mayweather has proven to be THE 154lb champ of the time and is a good fighter.
- A note is that Mayweather is much smaller than these guys on fight night. 
- Mayweather is juggling like a circus, he's defending two titles at once and in all honesty, he really has full control over 3 titles because of Cotto's middlewight reign.



Therefore, to summarise:
Mayweather:
Genaro, Manfredy, Gerena, Vargas, Corrales, Hernandez, Chavez, Castillo 1, Castillo 2, Sosa, Ndou, Corley, Bruseles, Gatti, Mitchell, Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, fat Marquez, past prime Mosley, Ortiz, Guerrero, Maidana, past prime De La Hoya, Canelo, Cotto

(AND MAYWEATHER ISN'T DONE YET, HE'LL MOST LIKELY GO TO 50-0 UNBEATEN AS MAYWEATHER WILL DUCK KHAN :hey ).

Arguello:
past prime Pascualito, past prime Gomez, Hafey, very past prime Olivares, Leonel, Riasco, Kobayashi, Jose Torres, Escalerax2, Limon, Chacon, Castillo (overrated), Navarrete, Boza-Edwards, Mancini, Watt, Ganigan, Ramirez, Vilomar, Costello
L Marcel
L Vilomar 
NC Pryor
L Very past prime against Pryor

Mayweather has fought a higher number of good opponents. Mayweather has no formal losses. Mayweather hasn't finished yet, a key point.

H2H: Mayweather is better than Arguello on a H2H matchup, but more importantly H2H ability - Mayweather IS better. 
Mayweather is juggling virtually three titles at once. It's a stretch to say that but he has ownership over MW champ Cotto as well as welter and LMW.

Longevity: Yeah, yeah, Arguello fought more times but look at his bum bonanza at the start (I know it was because he was developing. Yeah, yeah) That counts for like 25+ fights before he fought Pascualito.

Mayweather has also looked better in his fights, some of Arguello's fights are damn sloppy and unecessarily close against dudes who aren't that good - so you shouldn't overrate the longevity aspect of Arguello when comparing to Floyd, that much.

Arguello fought a lot of good journeymen, bums, very fringe contenders along the way. Mayweather didn't, but Arguello was finished age 34. Mayweather however is still unanimous P4P no.1 at aged 37 and will go on till damn near 40.

Mayweather has been world champion since 1998 without losing formally. Arguello has lost formally more times.

*Ok the question is now, are you going to say because of these random bums, good journeymen and very fringe contenders Arguello fought, this is going to override all of the other factors where Mayweather has the advantage, to the extent that Arguello is seen as much greater than Mayweather? I call for consistency. I'm not buying this. *


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Floyd has more depth in the W column and I don't even have to think about it, really.


Yep. Better depth and better top wins as well.

Hopkins best 2 wins remain after all these years are still 2 welterweights.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Floyd's best win is an older version of De La Hoya.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Mayweather will be rated higher than Arguello IMO


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Floyd's best win is an older version of De La Hoya.


I prefer the Castillo win as his top win. Castillo had just gotten past p4p'er Johnston and went on to have some other excellent wins as well.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I prefer the Castillo win as his top win. Castillo had just gotten past p4p'er Johnston and went on to have some other excellent wins as well.


Not a bad pick, for me he's a close 2nd.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather will be rated higher than Arguello IMO
> I prefer the Castillo win as his top win. Castillo had just gotten past p4p'er Johnston and went on to have some other excellent wins as well.


I agree with this, personally speaking.
I have an agenda against Mayweather as ya'll know but if people are willing to say Arguello is a lock for Top 50, with MANY always putting him in mid 30's, it's unfair to say Mayweather is not near that. Mayweather will most probably finish around 30-35 ish.
If you have Arguello above Hopkins in your rankings, you should be putting Mayweather above Hopkins in your rankings too. 
-----
I have to ask everybody, how do you conceptualise Hopkins' age when ranking him?
Imagine a 49/50 year old Erik Morales as lineal champ - something must be said.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Floyd's best win is an older version of De La Hoya.


Difference being that Hopkins is naturally a bit bigger than Oscar while Mayweather is a bit smaller.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Difference being that Hopkins is naturally a bit bigger than Oscar while Mayweather is a bit smaller.


And Oscar was younger and closer to his prime. The trade off in quality is age vs size.


----------



## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Again, Campillo is not a can. He's not infallible, but he was undoubtedly World class and people in the know knew he was a op-5 fighter when Kovalev beat him.
> 
> He got bad decisions in a fair few fights, including the Cloud and Murat fights before Kovalev got to him.
> 
> ...


^ THIS.

The Campillo win was huge. And it wasn't just a win, Kovalev pretty much completely dominated the extremely crafty Campillo.

Kovalev's ability to control the ring is severely under appreciated by many fans, maybe because his other talents overshadow it, but it's an important factor in why he's so bloody dangerous. Against BHop, it's going to be THE factor in the fight.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I agree with this, personally speaking.
> I have an agenda against Mayweather as ya'll know but if people are willing to say Arguello is a lock for Top 50, with MANY always putting him in mid 30's, it's unfair to say Mayweather is not near that. Mayweather will most probably finish around 30-35 ish.
> If you have Arguello above Hopkins in your rankings, you should be putting Mayweather above Hopkins in your rankings too.
> -----
> ...


Hopkins' wins from 40 and on add a little bit more to his resume. Because on the whole, it isn't terribly deep. Would people be giving Wright, Pascal, Pavlik, or Cloud chances against Hopkins if Hopkins was just coming off the Trinidad win? Doubtful. Even his losses get ignored because hey, he is old.

His age certainly benefits him in all areas of his resume.


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## mrtony80 (Jun 8, 2013)

Capaedia said:


> Is Kovalev really proven enough to push his ranking in any significant way?
> 
> You'd have to look back in 20 years. Just a look at the predictions the general forum makes about fighters on the regular should really demonstrate how little perspective we have right now, compared to what clued up people have to say about fighters from the '90s.
> 
> ...


To express my agreement with this post...

:hammer


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Capaedia said:


> Is Kovalev really proven enough to push his ranking in any significant way?
> 
> You'd have to look back in 20 years. Just a look at the predictions the general forum makes about fighters on the regular should really demonstrate how little perspective we have right now, compared to what clued up people have to say about fighters from the '90s.
> 
> ...


Wow I did not actually see this post. Nice post.

And sometimes people have a stubborn bias that they aren't willing to compromise on, too. It makes it a whole load worse. 
But ultimately, this is a forum and will involve people's opinions. We could make this whole process as scientific as possible but because of the way forum conversation is structured, we're already starting the race with our feet in mouse traps.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Kovalev is only as good as his resume + performances. So he's pretty good. It's a pretty good win for Hopkins, made special by his age and the ever-present threat of a knockout. I suppose Hopkins' performance will also influence how good of a win it is.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Kovalev is only as good as his resume + performances. So he's pretty good. It's a pretty good win for Hopkins, made special by his age and the ever-present threat of a knockout. I suppose Hopkins' performance will also influence how good of a win it is.


Am I in the wrong for thinking his 2 fights with Pascal were better for his legacy than Kovalev?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> His LW reign - and granted it wasn't the greatest era - was simply impeccable in terms of fighting rated opposition with the title on the line. He beat a HUGE Handful of top of rated contenders in the span of just a few years in going undisputed.





Hands of Iron said:


> <3
> 
> You've delivered in this thread too.





The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Wow I did not actually see this post. Nice post.
> 
> And sometimes people have a stubborn bias that they aren't willing to compromise on, too. It makes it a whole load worse.
> But ultimately, this is a forum and will involve people's opinions. We could make this whole process as scientific as possible but because of the way forum conversation is structured, we're already starting the race with our feet in mouse traps.


Exactly. People were shitting all over Floyd for not fighting Mosley, then he fights him. "oh Shane is old" Well Shane shouldn't have said no in 2006 :deal


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

You keep quoting that :lol: 

Toney has better top wins than Floyd and Hopkins.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Multi-quote :-(


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Toney was a poor mans Broner


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

I know we all participated in the McGrain's Top 100 Thread, I think we should actually try and make the ranking criteria as scientific as possible and use that as THE benchmark for ranking a fighters greatness. 
Put numerical weightings onto certain factors or something. That way we can iron out bias as much as possible.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

@Hands of Iron ducked that thread, I tried to duck it but got lured in for post upon post :cry @Bogotazo ducked it as well


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> And Oscar was younger and closer to his prime. The trade off in quality is age vs size.





turbotime said:


> @Hands of Iron ducked that thread, I tried to duck it but got lured in for post upon post :cry @Bogotazo ducked it as well


Duckers gonna duck bruh. Never denied being one.

Health comes first :deal I got kids to feed!


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

How dare they! 

I have a plan:

Over the course of the year (or more as it has to balance with my studies which will absolutely rape my time even more than my undergrad), I will sit there and analyse Greb (my current GOAT), Hank, SRR, Langford and determine who is GOAT - they're the real 4 frontrunners. I could literally do literature reviews on all the fighters as well. 
The only thing that's going to make me sick is the excessive clinching from back in the day.
If this has been done, I'd like to see sources. 


The Undefeated Gaul, MSc (Lomachenkology) PhD (GOAT Sciences)
One thing I will not do is pay for resources. 

- That'll be my relationship with boxing, and ya'll can wake me up whenever there's an elite fight and once the prospects I've been particularly interested in are in world champ fights.


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

No. Hopkins is a master and unique in his longetivity but Floyd has more natural talent and never lost to inferior opposition. I prefer Hopkins as a person though, fascinating old cunt.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Duckers gonna duck bruh. Never denied being one.
> 
> Health comes first :deal I got kids to feed!


Keep it in your pants. :-(



The Undefeated Gaul said:


> How dare they!
> 
> I have a plan:
> 
> ...


Didn't Crawford just smack your boy Gamboa around in an elite fight? :hey


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather will be rated higher than Arguello IMO





turbotime said:


> Keep it in your pants. :-(
> 
> Didn't Crawford just smack your boy Gamboa around in an elite fight? :hey


Gamboa isn't elite at 135lbs. 
Crawford was LMW in the ring. Yuri has a featherweight frame.
Gamboa's style is never gonna do well against Crawford's, especially when his opposition is a hell of a lot bigger.

Gamboa can have as much confidence in himself as he wants but if his punches don't mean shit against a huge dude like Crawford, and Gamboa keeps his chin dangling like a beefy poon lip, then Gamboa is his own worst enemy.

Hi my names Gamboa, take my chin


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Gamboa isn't elite at 135lbs.
> Crawford was LMW in the ring. Yuri has a featherweight frame.
> Gamboa's style is never gonna do well against Crawford's, especially when his opposition is a hell of a lot bigger.
> 
> ...


Gamboa just wasn't what all his fanboys believed him to be. Simple as. Gamboa is the poster boy for flash and no substance.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> And Oscar was younger and closer to his prime. The trade off in quality is age vs size.





turbotime said:


> Keep it in your pants. :-(
> 
> Didn't Crawford just smack your boy Gamboa around in an elite fight? :hey


I'm capped at two, and they're almost exactly 36 months apart so they almost look planned. :lol:

Sometimes it feels too good not to cum inside, especially when your just getting home and still buzzing, horny as absolute fuck. I never liked latex, and taking the time to pull it out and squirt sort of kills part of the orgasm. Even if it's sort of funny where it lands.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Gamboa just wasn't what all his fanboys believed him to be. Simple as. Gamboa is the poster boy for flash and no substance.


I think Gamboa fanboys took him to be this ATG or something, I always saw him as elite but with legit flaws. He's not flash and no substance though. Deffo full of substance, if Crawford wasn't oversized/if Gamboa had power at 135 like at lower weights, Gamboa could have really hurt him and the momentum of the fight would be somewhat altered. I remember Crawford was truly staggered, but responded with a KO.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I think Gamboa fanboys took him to be this ATG or something, I always saw him as elite but with legit flaws. He's not flash and no substance though. Deffo full of substance, if Crawford wasn't oversized/if Gamboa had power at 135 like at lower weights, Gamboa could have really hurt him and the momentum of the fight would be somewhat altered. I remember Crawford was truly staggered, but responded with a KO.


All those ifs made my eyes bleed a bit.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> And Oscar was younger and closer to his prime. The trade off in quality is age vs size.





turbotime said:


> All those ifs made my eyes bleed a bit.


Wasn't Gamboa in Dealt's Top 10 all-time in terms of H2H/Ability?


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Latex, the bane of my existence yet the saviour of my existence at the same time. 
Cannot imagine the horror of a casual lady carrying my heir. 
Tywin Lannister from Game of Thrones had a point, though.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Wasn't Gamboa in Dealt's Top 10 all-time in terms of H2H/Ability?


Probably. But that was all based on the premise that Juanma would be taken out by him and hed reign forever.

How good does that make Salido look really over Juanma and Loma. People were on Juanma harder than Loma at the time even.


----------



## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Gamboa just wasn't what all his fanboys believed him to be. Simple as. Gamboa is the poster boy for flash and no substance.


Bullshit. He's no Zab Judah, he has elite counter punching ability and athleticism. He was schooling Crawford until the size difference took over and Gamboa got overly reckless. I'd still pick Gamboa to beat Garcia. Crawford is no joke, but don't underestimate Gamboa. He's fucked his potential up a bit with his inactivity but he has Roy Jones level ability.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

If he had Roy jones ability he wouldn't have ate right hook after right hook.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Dealt_with said:


> Bullshit. He's no Zab Judah, he has elite counter punching ability and athleticism. He was schooling Crawford until the size difference took over and Gamboa got overly reckless. I'd still pick Gamboa to beat Garcia. Crawford is no joke, but don't underestimate Gamboa. He's fucked his potential up a bit with his inactivity but he has Roy Jones level ability.


The layoff(s) killed all his momentum and drive. He prepped hard for Crawford and it showed, I was pretty ecstatic with the way he started that fight looking sharper than razorblades, but the size difference was woeful from the jump.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

His punch selection was woeful. Crawford won it for himself. Switch hitting, hitting the body, jabbing, etc.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)




----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> If he had Roy jones ability he wouldn't have ate right hook after right hook.


True, if he had Roy Jones ability he would have gone down from the first right hook.

Sorry, just had to :lol:


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Crawford's Idaho crowd was superb.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Crawford's Idaho crowd was superb.


Rarely see a boxing crowd that LIVE stateside. Nebraska, by the way.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

dyna said:


> True, if he had Roy Jones ability he would have gone down from the first right hook.
> 
> Sorry, just had to :lol:


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Am I in the wrong for thinking his 2 fights with Pascal were better for his legacy than Kovalev?


Absolutely not. Pascal was the lineal champion, had lots of athleticism on top of solid power of his own.


----------



## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Pascal is average, those fights do little for Hopkins legacy. Pascal can only fight for four rounds and he got beaten by Froch. All Pascal has to hang his hat on is a win over an unmotivated Dawson and a safe performance against a gunshy Bute. Pascal is one of the weakest champions in recent times, very average boxing ability with decent athleticism and poor stamina.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

@Hands of Iron how good is Nick Young in NBA? What do you think his potential is?


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Anyway, back to my Alexis Arguello point. 
Where do you guys rank him? Do you rank him above Hopkins? If so, then you've probably gotta have Floyd above Hopkins. Wherever Alexis goes, Floyd goes.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Anyway, back to my Alexis Arguello point.
> Where do you guys rank him? Do you rank him above Hopkins? If so, then you've probably gotta have Floyd above Hopkins. Wherever Alexis goes, Floyd goes.


Depends on how Hopkins finishes out his career. I may rate Arguello over Hopkins actually, I think that is closer than Floyd Hopkins....I dont think many people in WBF are too knowledgeable on Alexis. If only @O59 were here :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@The Undefeated Gaul I've been relegated to casual NBA viewer for quite a while now. I catch up at the end of the regular season and then watch the playoffs in full so I haven't seen much of Young to be totally honest. The NBA season drags majorly and I lose interest terribly.

And what's the deal with this Arguello stuff? :lol: Top 40 ATG.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @The Undefeated Gaul I've been relegated to casual NBA viewer for quite a while now. I catch up at the end of the regular season and then watch the playoffs in full so I haven't seen much of Young to be totally honest. The NBA season drags majorly and I lose interest terribly.
> 
> And what's the deal with this Arguello stuff? :lol: Top 40 ATG.


I don't watch it as much these days - I was a pretty casual fan back in 03-05', it'll always be there and never run away. One of my best friends watched a Toronto Raptors vs some other team and after being a huge fan, he lost interest for good after seeing how commercialised matches were, people made to play up to the camera and that the atmosphere lacked team spirit.

In regards to the Arguello stuff, you say he's a Top 40 ATG. It's not right to have Mayweather and Arguello more than a few places apart if at all - that's what I sought to establish. So if you were to put Hopkins ahead of Mayweather, then it's likely that you may have him above Arguello too. Are you willing to say Hopkins is a Top 40 ATG, potentially even Top 30?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I don't have Hopkins above Floyd. I'm with the likes of turbotime, Michigan Warrior and McGrain on that front for all of the same reasons they stated. I suppose I never really addressed it :lol: I came in here and starting talking up Whitaker like a bat out of hell.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

He would need to beat Roy Jones at cruiserweight.

I don't think there's a thing better than Roy beating Hopkins for a vacant cruiserweight world title and then giving a concert afterwards.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Tito-just beat Vargas and destroyed Joppy, looking unaffected by the weight gain; B-Hop becomes the first undisputed world middleweight champion since Marvin Hagler in 1987
> Oscar-Hopkins had a size advantage but this was a young Oscar, and Hopkins came in light to prove a point
> Pavlik-undefeated KO artist, had just beaten Taylor twice, Hopkins was 43, Kelly 26
> Tarver-coming off wins over Johnson and Jones, Hopkins first moves up to LHW; Hopkins was 41
> ...


Oscar was past prime with a size disadvantage, this was him looking like a fat baby 
Pavlik was dragged up 10lbs - another fatty
Tarver - I actually think this is a decent win
Pascal - a 'good' fighter nothing more nothing less
Winky - that fight is not worth mentioning, Winky was the small guy made to put on 10lbs - styles make fights. 
Johnson - a good 'contender' 
...well instead of continuing like this...

...I think something must be said - Hopkin's abilities are not really compromised much by age. The Erik Morales example is quite prolific here. If Morales kept up his war antics till the age of 49, then that is scary. Hopkin's style always allowed him to slow the pace down. I remember watching a few rounds of RJJ-Hopkins 1, RJJ was not even throwing much. That's just his style. Hopkins fights have always been primarily 'thinking' fights. Experience does make this aspect easier for Hopkins.

So when I look at Hopkins, I don't reward him too much for his longevity like others do.

He was around 35 when he actually stepped up in competition, as you can see he got better and better because of his fights were thinking fights and did not require anywhere near as great physical exertion as other fighters expel. However, until then, Hopkins' resume was rather embarassing. 
When we say 'Hopkins got more title defenses than Monzon' - we need to actually look at the heaps difference in the level of competition also. Any Top 100 can defend so many times against opponents like that.

With Archie Moore, he was around 45+ and still at the top level, and was over 40 when he beat HOF's like Johnson, Olson etc. especially if you factor in the wear and tear his specific career involves, fighting a ridiculous no. of times a year, what looks like less padded gloves in that era etc. and importantly, Archie's style _relied more_ on athleticism.

I hope I'm not giving off the impression that I'm pissing on Hopkins's longevity because it kicks ass and he's a Top 50 ATG.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Oscar was past prime with a size disadvantage, this was him looking like a fat baby
> Pavlik was dragged up 10lbs - another fatty
> Tarver - I actually think this is a decent win
> Pascal - a 'good' fighter nothing more nothing less
> ...


I don't reward longevity for its own sake, but it adds a little extra to certain wins.

Floyd's high number titles and old/worn opposition could be picked apart just as easily. He has a notable lack of prime opponents his size. Nobody's resume is perfect though.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I don't reward longevity for its own sake, but it adds a little extra to certain wins.
> 
> Floyd's high number titles and old/worn opposition could be picked apart just as easily. He has a notable lack of prime opponents his size. Nobody's resume is perfect though.


Yeah that's true to an extent. Floyd hasn't brought people up 10lbs though where they just seize to be competitive, for example. 
Yeah, it certainly does add extra given that Bernard's reflexes is still sound, good mental alertness etc. things that go downhill. It makes his 'average' wins badass.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yeah that's true to an extent. Floyd hasn't brought people up 10lbs though where they just seize to be competitive, for example.


JMM.



The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yeah, it certainly does add extra given that Bernard's reflexes is still sound, good mental alertness etc. things that go downhill. It makes his 'average' wins badass.


Right. But like you, I'm careful about that. The opponent you beat is still only as good as he is at the time.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> JMM.


lol I don't really give Floyd too much credit for that fight, I always make it a point to mention 'small, fat' Marquez.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> JMM.


Just joining in randomly.
It's more like 2lbs than 10lbs really.









JMM was already 140 7 months before the Floyd fight.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Just joining in randomly.
> It's more like 2lbs than 10lbs really.
> 
> 
> ...


The quality of the weight is not the same. Which is evident by the way JMM came in against Pac at welter.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Floyd is ahead of Hopkins. But it is close. Everyone who says Hopkins is ahead considerably are kidding themselves. Time heals all wounds. It has a way of changing the landscape and perception on just about everything. Capaedia elucidated this point effectively. 

Even if the concept of the undefeated fighter may be a bit of a myth it will be appreciated. Floyd's reign will be more appreciated with time, and arguably never losing will be respected. There's a rarity in that kind of consistency. There's a rarity in Hopkins kind of consistency and longevity too. The longevity is an even greater rarity so he will be appreciated (Already is). But his longevity is his greatest distinction. For however good he was, which he was, he was never really special or that dominant. His MW reign could absolutely level my assertion but I mean that an impressionable kind of way as much as in any record way. If Hopkins beats Kovalev it could put him ahead. Only because there's not much between them. Part of it depends on what Kovalev can amount to but it really isn't wholly contingent on that. People still talk about Moore-Durrell to this day, but I rarely ever hear people talk about how special or great Durrell was. If Hopkins wins I reckon it will be huge.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Floyd is ahead of Hopkins. But it is close. Everyone who says Hopkins is ahead considerably are kidding themselves. Time heals all wounds. It has a way of changing the landscape and perception on just about everything. Capaedia elucidated this point effectively.
> 
> Even if the concept of the undefeated fighter may be a bit of a myth it will be appreciated.* Floyd's reign will be more appreciated with time, and arguably never losing will be respected. *There's a rarity in that kind of consistency. There's a rarity in Hopkins kind of consistency and longevity too. The longevity is an even greater rarity so he will be appreciated (Already is). But his longevity is his greatest distinction. For however good he was, which he was, he was never really special or that dominant. His MW reign could absolutely level my assertion but I mean that an impressionable kind of way as much as in any record way. If Hopkins beats Kovalev it could put him ahead. Only because there's not much between them. Part of it depends on what Kovalev can amount to but it really isn't wholly contingent on that. People still talk about Moore-Durrell to this day, but I rarely ever hear people talk about how special or great Durrell was. If Hopkins wins I reckon it will be huge.


I think it will be less appreciated as people will be able to have more of a sober opinion.

His longevity is definitely great but we're going to be comparing him to eras of old, and we'd realise that we can't overrate the longevity factor where Mayweather is concerned.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

dyna said:


> Just joining in randomly.
> It's more like 2lbs than 10lbs really.
> 
> 
> ...


It's funny how people act like he didn't train for Mayweather. He acknowledged Mayweather the best fighter on earth, they certainly weren't showing up for the Paycheck, Marquez tried all 12 rounds.


----------



## Capaedia (Jun 6, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Wow I did not actually see this post. Nice post.
> 
> And sometimes people have a stubborn bias that they aren't willing to compromise on, too. It makes it a whole load worse.
> But ultimately, this is a forum and will involve people's opinions. We could make this whole process as scientific as possible but because of the way forum conversation is structured, we're already starting the race with our feet in mouse traps.


Yeah definitely. But there has been great discourse on it already.

Don't get me wrong. There are some awesome and well made lists on this website. But I don't think the modern fighters are ready to be placed in them. The dust hasn't settled enough.

Roy, Chavez, Pea are the last ones I'd include at this point. Were I in the business of list making.



Mushin said:


> Every fighter has lackluster performances here and there (like Floyd had against Augustus and Castillo), but overall I would favor Duran at LW.


He got hit a bit more often than he usually does against Augustus, but he also beat the hell out of Augustus and made his corner stop the fight.

I don't see how that's struggling.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I think it will be less appreciated as people will be able to have more of a sober opinion.
> 
> His longevity is definitely great but we're going to be comparing him to eras of old, and we'd realise that we can't overrate the longevity factor where Mayweather is concerned.


The opinion on Floyd is generally more negative than positive. Only Floyd fans or rappers that don't know the history think he's the best or top ten. The rest seem to call him in overrated, cherry-picking fraud. There's a huge gap between the two. A really polarizing divide. Hopkins has solid respect fro pretty much all boxing fans, regardless of whether they find him boring or dirty. Nobody really denies his greatness or that he is one of the greats.

It's not the longevity. It's the consistency. And also the fact that he had a career pre WW.

I'd be surprised if Mayweather ended up being ranked lower on ATG lists when its all said and done. Unless something drastic happened in the next few years...


----------



## BoxingGenius27 (Jun 8, 2013)

BoxingJabsBlog said:


> Simple question, on your own personal list, if Hopkins does the impossible do you move him ahead of Floyd on your own all time list?


I think it's very very close. I'd have to think a little more on this one.


----------



## Brownies (Jun 7, 2013)

I expect Floyd to get some nice victories as an old man, He'll lose some win some just like Hopkins and like Hopkins he'll get more respect because of it. Fans love an old man schooling a young champ. I think Floyd will rank higher when everything is said and done, but Hopkins is awesome.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> *The opinion on Floyd is generally more negative than positive.* Only Floyd fans or rappers that don't know the history think he's the best or top ten. The rest seem to call him in overrated, cherry-picking fraud. There's a huge gap between the two. A really polarizing divide. Hopkins has solid respect fro pretty much all boxing fans, regardless of whether they find him boring or dirty. Nobody really denies his greatness or that he is one of the greats.
> 
> It's not the longevity. It's the consistency. And also the fact that he had a career pre WW.
> 
> I'd be surprised if Mayweather ended up being ranked lower on ATG lists when its all said and done. Unless something drastic happened in the next few years...


Eddie Futch said he saw moves from Floyd that he hadn't seen since SRR. Maybe you're giving too much weight to what some casual fan from 2008 thinks.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Brownies said:


> I expect Floyd to get some nice victories as an old man, He'll lose some win some just like Hopkins and like Hopkins he'll get more respect because of it. Fans love an old man schooling a young champ. I think Floyd will rank higher when everything is said and done, but Hopkins is awesome.


Nah Floyd is getting out soon.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Nah Floyd is getting out soon.


Ain't no chance he fights 51 fights...unless he goes crazy broke. I said year(s) ago that Floyd wouldn't even finish his contract and I still think that will be the case. If he has another near-draw fight with marcos fucking maidana...he's gonna take a long time to think about what he wants to do next IMO


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Nah Floyd is getting out soon.


Where would you rate Hops' last 5 fights vs Mayweather's in terms of competition?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Where would you rate Hops' last 5 fights vs Mayweather's in terms of competition?


Wins or just opponents?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Wins or just opponents?


combo of both as usual.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> combo of both as usual.


In terms of quality of opponents when they fought them:

Cotto
Pascal (including him since he fought Dawson twice and the first one barely counts)
Dawson 
Canelo
Maidana
Ortiz
Cloud
Guerrero
Shumenov
Murat

For wins just subtract Dawson and tack on Jones at the end (merely because he's next in line).

Cotto and Pascal may be interchangeable, Cotto is the better fighter but Pascal was coming off the bigger more significant win.

And yes I think Cloud is more talented than Guerrero.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> His LW reign - and granted it wasn't the greatest era - was simply impeccable in terms of fighting rated opposition with the title on the line. He beat a HUGE Handful of top of rated contenders in the span of just a few years in going undisputed.





Hands of Iron said:


> <3
> 
> You've delivered in this thread too.





Hands of Iron said:


> Duckers gonna duck bruh. Never denied being one.
> 
> Health comes first :deal I got kids to feed!





Hands of Iron said:


> Wasn't Gamboa in Dealt's Top 10 all-time in terms of H2H/Ability?





Bogotazo said:


> In terms of quality of opponents when they fought them:
> 
> Cotto
> Pascal (including him since he fought Dawson twice and the first one barely counts)
> ...


I refuse to tack on Jones.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

:verysad


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Oscar was past prime with a size disadvantage, this was him looking like a fat baby
> Pavlik was dragged up 10lbs - another fatty
> Tarver - I actually think this is a decent win
> Pascal - a 'good' fighter nothing more nothing less
> ...


Old man Bhop vs old man Moore. That would be an interesting fight.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PetetheKing said:


> Floyd is ahead of Hopkins. But it is close. Everyone who says Hopkins is ahead considerably are kidding themselves. Time heals all wounds. It has a way of changing the landscape and perception on just about everything. Capaedia elucidated this point effectively.
> 
> Even if the concept of the undefeated fighter may be a bit of a myth it will be appreciated. Floyd's reign will be more appreciated with time, and arguably never losing will be respected. There's a rarity in that kind of consistency. There's a rarity in Hopkins kind of consistency and longevity too. The longevity is an even greater rarity so he will be appreciated (Already is). But his longevity is his greatest distinction. For however good he was, which he was, he was never really special or that dominant. His MW reign could absolutely level my assertion but I mean that an impressionable kind of way as much as in any record way. If Hopkins beats Kovalev it could put him ahead. Only because there's not much between them. Part of it depends on what Kovalev can amount to but it really isn't wholly contingent on that. People still talk about Moore-Durrell to this day, but I rarely ever hear people talk about how special or great Durrell was. If Hopkins wins I reckon it will be huge.


This is completely your opinion. And yet your first line reads like you are privy to facts that the rest of us aren't.

So no, I disagree with you wholeheartedly.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Man, that Ortiz win has aged horribly :lol: 


Bogotazo said:


> In terms of quality of opponents when they fought them:
> 
> Cotto
> Pascal (including him since he fought Dawson twice and the first one barely counts)
> ...


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Man, that Ortiz win has aged horribly :lol:


Yeah. Not a bad fight at the time though. "Young Lion" and all that. None of Floyd's fights are, it's just compared to Manny, they've always been a far away 2nd. Maybe that's what people mean when they say Floyd will be looked at less kindly as years wear on. I see arguments for both.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah. Not a bad fight at the time though. "Young Lion" and all that. None of Floyd's fights are, it's just compared to Manny, they've always been a far away 2nd. Maybe that's what people mean when they say Floyd will be looked at less kindly as years wear on. I see arguments for both.


There are definitely arguments for both. I had Manny ahead, and now Floyd with his 2 weight title leadership has done him wonders, especially since Manny has kinda fell off the last 3 years, crazy to think that this fight was shit hot 5 yrs ago already.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> There are definitely arguments for both. I had Manny ahead, and now Floyd with his 2 weight title leadership has done him wonders, especially since Manny has kinda fell off the last 3 years, crazy to think that this fight was shit hot 5 yrs ago already.


Same, I could see it both ways. Yeah, it's a fickle game.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Same, I could see it both ways. Yeah, it's a fickle game.


We'll see how well Mayweather's recent wins age. Algieri as well once Pac kicks his ass. The Canelo win will look better in time IMO even though you're anti-Alvarez :-(


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> We'll see how well Mayweather's recent wins age. Algieri as well once Pac kicks his ass. The Canelo win will look better in time IMO even though you're anti-Alvarez :-(


I give wins a cut-off point after a certain amount of time. Though up to now it's making Floyd look good.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> *I give wins a cut-off point after a certain amount of time. *Though up to now it's making Floyd look good.


Hmmmm.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pacquiao last 6 opponents vs Floyd's last 6 opponents

Pacquiao

Algieri
Bradley
Rios
Marquez
Bradley
Marquez

Mayweathers last 6 opponents

Maidana
Maidana
Alvarez
Guerrero
Cotto
Ortiz


Mayweather clearly. Maidana is better than Rios and Algoeri and I can see him giving Bradley and Marquez he'll just on size and style. Throw in a more stylistically diverse selection of opponents, a long with Floyd's age (Bhop fans can use it so can Floyd) and Floyd has been killing Mannys opposition the last few years


----------



## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Pacquiao last 6 opponents vs Floyd's last 6 opponents
> 
> Pacquiao
> 
> ...


Tbh I don't like Pacquaio but his win over Bradley was a great win and at the top of my head one of the top 5 wins of the past 5 years in terms of greatness. IMO Bradley is a HOF lock.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Dedication said:


> Tbh I don't like Pacquaio but his win over Bradley was a great win and at the top of my head one of the top 5 wins of the past 5 years in terms of greatness. IMO Bradley is a HOF lock.


The last 5 wins over the last 5 years will have been kinda shit if I have to sit and think on this.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Dedication said:


> Tbh I don't like Pacquaio but his win over Bradley was a great win and at the top of my head one of the top 5 wins of the past 5 years in terms of greatness. IMO Bradley is a HOF lock.


Bradley aight. When's the last time he had a wow performance against a top level guy. Struggling with Prodnikov looks bad, and I don't put much credit in his win over Marquez who stylistically you'd expect to do better. He had a good performance against Pac but it's clear he has his limits

As he's chased Pac he never fought Garcia, Khan, Maidana, Mattysee, ect

Besides Marquez he's beaten no one of note in a long time


----------



## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> The last 5 wins over the last 5 years will have been kinda shit if I have to sit and think on this.


Yeah that's the thing but May - Canelo the best win doe cos Mayweather is black


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Dedication said:


> Yeah that's the thing but May - Canelo the best win doe cos Mayweather is black


The best win should've been Marquez vs Pacquiao 3 for Marquez


----------



## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Bradley aight. When's the last time he had a wow performance against a top level guy. Struggling with Prodnikov looks bad, and I don't put much credit in his win over Marquez who stylistically you'd expect to do better. He had a good performance against Pac but it's clear he has his limits
> 
> As he's chased Pac he never fought Garcia, Khan, Maidana, Mattysee, ect
> 
> Besides Marquez he's beaten no one of note in a long time


My brother got KTFO by some guy called chatty on this site a while back on this very topic imma just quote my man on this if i can find it


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Dedication said:


> My brother got KTFO by some guy called chatty on this site a while back on this very topic imma just quote my man on this if i can find it


Chatty couldn't ko khan with a free shot with Margarito wraps on

You a damn lie


----------



## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> The best win should've been Marquez vs Pacquiao 3 for Marquez


I actually did score the fight for Marquez but an objective consideration has to be taken here because I personally believe Pacquiao had been taking some of supplements that had given him TOO much of an edge against opponents since he was about a lightweight until the Rios fight. If you can score the fight for Marquez then I can take away from that win since it in itself is tainted giving the May - Canelo the greater win overall but this is treading into dangerous territory because you're, leway ( can't really think of the proper word it) is more grounded while mine is mere speculation but their both unpopular opinions that will go down as such.

And you'd probs win anyway. Anyways gotta bounce.


----------



## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Chatty couldn't ko khan with a free shot with Margarito wraps on
> 
> You a damn lie


:rofl My bro was shot fam Chatty cherrypicked him


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Dedication said:


> I actually did score the fight for Marquez but an objective consideration has to be taken here because I personally believe Pacquiao had been taking some of supplements that had given him TOO much of an edge against opponents since he was about a lightweight until the Rios fight. If you can score the fight for Marquez then I can take away from that win since it in itself is tainted giving the May - Canelo the greater win overall but this is treading into dangerous territory because you're, leway ( can't really think of the proper word it) is more grounded while mine is mere speculation but their both unpopular opinions that will go down as such.
> 
> And you'd probs win anyway. Anyways gotta bounce.


I get you, I'd go Marquez/Pac 3 and 4, Rigo vs Donaire

The rest.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> This is completely your opinion. And yet your first line reads like you are privy to facts that the rest of us aren't.
> 
> So no, I disagree with you wholeheartedly.


As if half of the people here don't speak matter of factly.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PetetheKing said:


> As if half of the people here don't speak matter of factly.


That's fair enough, but you don't speak for a fair few people who have expressed the opposing opinion. So you should've known to be a little more open ended.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> That's fair enough, but you don't speak for a fair few people who have expressed the opposing opinion. So you should've known to be a little more open ended.


Of course not. It's obviously close, the reason why the debate exists and went this many pages. Personally, there's a lot of old-school knowledge guys that I think can be a bit harsh on Floyd (The way many are with many contemporary fighters. It's the way it always is but with Floyd especially). Hopkins is so alien and old-school in his own right that he's kind of exempt partialness.

It seems with Floyd, a high percentage of people either think here's somewhere in the top 20-30 (Fanatics as high as top 10-15) while others maintain he's far behind the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr and hasn't even cracked the top 50. I haven't been around these quarters too much in the past year or so so perhaps the perception has changed.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Of course not. It's obviously close, the reason why the debate exists and went this many pages. Personally, there's a lot of old-school knowledge guys that I think can be a bit harsh on Floyd (The way many are with many contemporary fighters. It's the way it always is but with Floyd especially). Hopkins is so alien and old-school in his own right that he's kind of exempt partialness.
> 
> It seems with Floyd, a high percentage of people either think here's somewhere in the top 20-30 (Fanatics as high as top 10-15) while others maintain he's far behind the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr and hasn't even cracked the top 50. I haven't been around these quarters too much in the past year or so so perhaps the perception has changed.


Fuck perception, you call your own shots. Floyd will be seen by fanboys as a Top 25. He's not. However, he is going to be greater than Arguello if he isn't already. If you have Hopkins being greater than Floyd, then you must also think that Hopkins is most probably greater than Arguello too - he's a yardstick to measure it all.

Floyd is going to finish mid-late 30's, maybe early 40's.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PetetheKing said:


> Of course not. It's obviously close, the reason why the debate exists and went this many pages. Personally, there's a lot of old-school knowledge guys that I think can be a bit harsh on Floyd (The way many are with many contemporary fighters. It's the way it always is but with Floyd especially). Hopkins is so alien and old-school in his own right that he's kind of exempt partialness.
> 
> It seems with Floyd, a high percentage of people either think here's somewhere in the top 20-30 (Fanatics as high as top 10-15) while others maintain he's far behind the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr and hasn't even cracked the top 50. I haven't been around these quarters too much in the past year or so so perhaps the perception has changed.


Hopkins is a contemporary fighter.

He has done things which make his achievements closer to those 'old school' fighters, which is the gold standard we should just 'the greats' against. It's not the more historically in tune fans rate Hopkins higher because he's closer to that standard, but that he _deserves_ to be ranked higher for being closer to that standard.

Depending on your criteria of course.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Fuck perception, you call your own shots. Floyd will be seen by fanboys as a Top 25. He's not. However, he is going to be greater than Arguello if he isn't already. If you have Hopkins being greater than Floyd, then you must also think that Hopkins is most probably greater than Arguello too - he's a yardstick to measure it all.
> 
> Floyd is going to finish mid-late 30's, maybe early 40's.


Why would you rank Floyd above Arguello? Has he beaten better opposition?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Why would you rank Floyd above Arguello? Has he beaten better opposition?


I don't see how Floyd is "greater" than Arguello. Arguello's resume is clearly full of tougher customers. Floyd is better H2H though and would probably beat Arguello though imo


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Why would you rank Floyd above Arguello? Has he beaten better opposition?


Thanks by the way for the Arguello-Marcel upload last year.



tommygun711 said:


> I don't see how Floyd is "greater" than Arguello. Arguello's resume is clearly full of tougher customers. Floyd is better H2H though and would probably beat Arguello though imo


This is actually relatively brief although it doesn't look it, guys.
http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...ead-of-Floyd&p=1424843&viewfull=1#post1424843


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> This is actually relatively brief although it doesn't look it, guys.
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...ead-of-Floyd&p=1424843&viewfull=1#post1424843


so the argument is in the consistency basically? I don't know, I feel like overall when you compare their resumes Floyd has the QUANTITY, but Arguello has the better quality guys under his belt :conf


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> so the argument is in the consistency basically? I don't know, I feel like overall when you compare their resumes Floyd has the QUANTITY, but Arguello has the better quality guys under his belt :conf


If you put it into perspective, the better quality guys come essentially from Arguello's 130lb run. Arguello is the greater SFW, but yet in its totality, only by a margin. This marginal difference tends to be overblown. 
Beyond this, Floyd has the benefit of the other factors mentioned in the post, and what I do think is an important thought is that Floyd _essentially_ has control over 3 divisions currently - 147, 154, and 160 with his win over 160's Lineal champ.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> If you put it into perspective, the better quality guys come essentially from Arguello's 130lb run. Arguello is the greater SFW, but yet in its totality, only by a margin. This marginal difference tends to be overblown.
> Beyond this, Floyd has the benefit of the other factors mentioned in the post, and what I do think is an important thought is that Floyd _essentially_ has control over 3 divisions currently - 147, 154, and 160 with his win over 160's Lineal champ.


Come on dude. Floyd isn't dominating/have control of 160 just because he beat Cotto at 154. Give me a break dude... I also don't think it's as small of a difference as you say. Beating the better quality guys is a big plus no matter what the era.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Come on dude. Floyd isn't dominating/have control of 160 just because he beat Cotto at 154. Give me a break dude... I also don't think it's as small of a difference as you say. Beating the better quality guys is a big plus no matter what the era.


The better quality guys - barely if at all, and some cases, no. 
I say it loosely but it is a reality tbh. He's bossed the lineal 160lb champ, the 154lb champ and the 147lb champs. Factoring in that they all weigh 165-172lbs on fight night.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> The better quality guys - barely if at all, and some cases, no.
> I say it loosely but it is a reality tbh. He's bossed the lineal 160lb champ, the 154lb champ and the 147lb champs. Factoring in that they all weigh 165-172lbs on fight night.


no it's not a reality. he never fought at 160 pounds. I hate this kind of logic. Cotto is only MW champ because he took advantage of past prime Sergio. He beat Cotto at 154. It's not the same at middlweight.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> no it's not a reality. he never fought at 160 pounds. I hate this kind of logic. Cotto is only MW champ because he took advantage of past prime Sergio. He beat Cotto at 154. It's not the same at middlweight.


I know it was a past prime Sergio. 154, 155lbs isn't really a difference when we're talking history, Sergio was still lineal MW champ, something that Cotto put on an astonishing performance to obtain - regardless of what is said of Sergio, Cotto looked a killer. It's not the same as middleweight, but we're talking about the effect here.

I'm not a Floyd fan, I just recognise the bollocks in arguments that Arguello and Floyd's greatness is more than a couple of places from eachother.

I laid out convincing arguments and no alternative makes sense nor are they really backed up.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I know it was a past prime Sergio. 154, 155lbs isn't really a difference when we're talking history, Sergio was still lineal MW champ, something that Cotto put on an astonishing performance to obtain - regardless of what is said of Sergio, Cotto looked a killer. It's not the same as middleweight, but we're talking about the effect here.
> 
> I'm not a Floyd fan, I just recognise the bollocks in arguments that Arguello and Floyd's greatness is more than a couple of places from eachother.
> 
> I laid out convincing arguments and no alternative makes sense nor are they really backed up.


dude this is just like trying to give credit to Calzaghe for all of the stuff that Hopkins accomplished after Calzaghe beat him. It's bullshit. Floyd did not beat Cotto when Cotto had the middleweight title so your point simply doesn't make sense. Floyd beat a 154 pounder not the middleweight champ.

So what we CAN do is take the win on face value. Floyd beat a past prime Cotto at 154 pounds. Not the MW champ.

I don't think Floyd has a better RESUME when you are just comparing their resumes. Maybe the way Floyd climbed weight classes was more impressive, and how he was more dominant, but as far as I'm concerned Floyd never faced an operator like Marcel or a solider like Pryor.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> dude this is just like trying to give credit to Calzaghe for all of the stuff that Hopkins accomplished after Calzaghe beat him. It's bullshit. Floyd did not beat Cotto when Cotto had the middleweight title so your point simply doesn't make sense. Floyd beat a 154 pounder not the middleweight champ.
> 
> So what we CAN do is take the win on face value. Floyd beat a past prime Cotto at 154 pounds. Not the MW champ.
> 
> I don't think Floyd has a better RESUME when you are just comparing their resumes. Maybe the way Floyd climbed weight classes was more impressive, and how he was more dominant, but as far as I'm concerned Floyd never faced an operator like Marcel or a solider like Pryor.


No it's not, as Cotto is a livewire as a middleweight, and Calzaghe's win over a 43 year old Hopkins does increase in value actually as Hopkins continues to do well at 49/50...or at least it makes us more aware of the value of Calzaghe's win.

Floyd beat a 154lb Cotto who came into the ring at 165+lbs. Cotto at just 1lb heavier, coming into the ring at what, 170lbs against Sergio, became the lineal MW champ. 
So in effect, it is very much like Floyd has full control over three divisions. Floyd beating Cotto for the MW title at 1lb heavier wouldn't need to prove that.

'past prime Cotto' - such a thing doesn't matter so much as Cotto's actual advantages were magnified by his size difference - that's not up for argument.

No, Floyd hasn't faced a Marcel or a Pryor (who is overrated). Arguello LOST to Marcel and Pryor although past prime during Pryor.

EDIT: weighing in at - coming into the ring at


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Floyd beat a 154lb Cotto who came into the ring at 165+lbs. Cotto at just 1lb heavier, coming into the ring at what, 170lbs against Sergio, became the lineal MW champ.
> So in effect, it is very much like Floyd has full control over three divisions. Floyd beating Cotto for the MW title at 1lb heavier wouldn't need to prove that.


No he doesn't have control over middleweight. Just stop it already. This is fucking stupid. I can't believe I'm having this discussion right now. If Floyd beat Cotto again at middleweight, then sure you would have a much better argument. But it's dumb to sit here and act like Floyd is somehow dominating middleweight without ever fighting at that division.

He beat the dude at 154 WHICH IS NOT middleweight, and if Floyd has "control" over middleweight, maybe he should just make the jump and fight Golovkin? since he has control over the divison, and Golovkin is the true Kingpin of 160.



> 'past prime Cotto' - such a thing doesn't matter so much as Cotto's actual advantages were magnified by his size difference - that's not up for argument.


Of course it matters. It would have meant a lot more if Floyd had fought Cotto in his prime, and he could have. He had the opportunity.



> No, Floyd hasn't faced a Marcel or a Pryor (who is overrated). Arguello LOST to Marcel and Pryor although past prime during Pryor.


No shit. That's my point. You can give Floyd credit for being dominant & for his longevity, but also recognize that he never fought people like Pryor or Marcel. It's a huge point. Floyd dominates in a weak era. @Flea Man feels the same.

Pryor overrated? yeah okay. I keep seeing that again and again to the point where it's oversaid. Pryor was what he was. A complete offensive animal with flawed defense, but also with unlimited heart. And one of the best 140 pounders ever. He would give Floyd a rumble and I'm sure of it.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> No he doesn't have control over middleweight. Just stop it already. This is fucking stupid. I can't believe I'm having this discussion right now. If Floyd beat Cotto again at middleweight, then sure you would have a much better argument. But it's dumb to sit here and act like Floyd is somehow dominating middleweight without ever fighting at that division.
> 
> He beat the dude at 154 WHICH IS NOT middleweight, and if Floyd has "control" over middleweight, maybe he should just make the jump and fight Golovkin? since he has control over the divison, and Golovkin is the true Kingpin of 160.
> 
> ...


:-(

I'm not defending it as an absolute, I'm defending the idea that it's very much like he has a control over three weight divisions - 147, 154 and the lineal champ at MW who weighed just one more lb at the weigh in in his MW fight. I'm not defending the idea that he HAS direct control over middleweight.

Example just changing the names around:
Hearns beats SRL at 147, Benitez at 154, Hagler at 154lbs. Hagler weighs 155lbs for his next fight and becomes lineal middleweight champ in a dominant performance.

- it's very much like Hearns has control, has imprint, over these three divisions. Golovkin is not the factor here, I'm talking about lineal championship.

No it wouldn't have mattered really given Cotto's growing weight advantages, it's a stylistic matter.

You're not making any point. You'd have a point if Arguello were to beat them both otherwise it's void.

One of the best 140lbers ever? Besides Arguello he didn't have anything else. This is God awful.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I'm not defending it as an absolute, I'm defending the idea that it's very much like he has a control over three weight divisions - 147, 154 and the lineal champ at MW who weighed just one more lb at the weigh in in his MW fight. I'm not defending the idea that he HAS direct control over middleweight.


No, no he doesn't have any control over middleweight at all. He's never fought at the division. Just because he beat Cotto before don't mean he suddenly is a champion at MW. Get outta here with that shit. Stop giving him credit for something he's never done. 147 & 154 obviously but not middleweight.



> You're not making any point. You'd have a point if Arguello were to beat them both otherwise it's void.


atsch

You really don't understand the point or are you just playing dumb? i mean seriously? The point is that Arguello's era was stronger, he had to deal with tougher opposition. Floyd never fought nobody like Pryor or Marcel. Obviously he lost to those 2 guys, but he was green for Marcel and past his prime for Pryor. It's just to point out that he fought the better guys.


> One of the best 140lbers ever? Besides Arguello he didn't have anything else. This is God awful.


He beat Cervantes who was on an impressive winning streak, Kameda and Kim. but yeah obviously his resume is pretty paper thin. H2H he still would be a match for any 140 pounder ever, that is largely what his greatness is based on. I think you knew what I meant. I wasn't saying his resume is anything impressive outside of Arguello.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> No, no he doesn't have any control over middleweight at all. He's never fought at the division. Just because he beat Cotto before don't mean he suddenly is a champion at MW. Get outta here with that shit. Stop giving him credit for something he's never done. 147 & 154 obviously but not middleweight.
> 
> atsch
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree, he doesn't have any control, but it's very much like he does with his win to Cotto, based on what Cotto has managed to do at middleweight to become the lineal champ.

That's a bullshit statement tbh, you can't have it two ways. 'Arguello's era was stronger' vs 'Mayweather has the higher quantity of good wins'. When you sit there and analyse it, the quality of Arguello's best opponents compared to Mayweather's best would not be best described by 'significant' by any means.

You have to accept this statement, I don't care about side statements you're making because they're irrelevant...Arguello LOST to both guys who you claim is better than anyone Mayweather fought. Just to throw it out there, Marcel is one of my very favourite fighters of all time and he's hideously underrated.

lol The biggest factor towards the Cervantes win is because Pryor had athletic benefits that Cervantes wasn't going to be so competitive against at that stage of his career. Don't Kim and Kameda me, Kim was shot and Kameda was a 'never was'.

I don't actually hold the loss to Pryor against him if you read what I originally wrote, but you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

IMO people who say he was 'green' for Marcel haven't actually watched the Arguello-Marcel fight.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

i don't really care to continue this since we are going to be running in circles again and again. just because Cotto is the MW champ dont make Floyd the MW champ. Arguello wasn't the patient killer he would go onto become & wasn't at his peak as far as combo punching when he Marcel. And yes saying Arguello fought the better guys is 100% true and quite significant.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Tommy is the fella that believes Corrales was shot when Floyd fought him don't forget.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Tommy is the fella that believes Corrales was shot when Floyd fought him don't forget.


Tommy does have his strange views. turbo you know I'm not a fan of Floyd either so I have no agenda/bias.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Tommy does have his strange views. turbo you know I'm not a fan of Floyd either so I have no agenda/bias.


I guess we all do sometimes


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Tommy is the fella that believes Corrales was shot when Floyd fought him don't forget.


You keep saying that but its not 100% true. i said i felt corrales was not at his best, but floyd would dominate any version of corrales


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

BoxingJabsBlog said:


> Simple question, on your own personal list, if Hopkins does the impossible do you move him ahead of Floyd on your own all time list?


Hell yes! I feel like I should do it already tbh with you.


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

Already above him


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> You keep saying that but its not 100% true. i said i felt corrales was not at his best, but floyd would dominate any version of corrales


You said shot. You said this. Then you said John Brown gave him a tough fight in order to support your claim.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I don't have Hopkins above Floyd. I'm with the likes of turbotime, Michigan Warrior and McGrain on that front for all of the same reasons they stated. I suppose I never really addressed it :lol: I came in here and starting talking up Whitaker like a bat out of hell.


Missed this post (sun)


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## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> You said shot. You said this. Then you said John Brown gave him a tough fight in order to support your claim.


:rofl Haters gon hate.


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## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

Does Bhop have a greater win than Juan Manuel Marquez the guy who went on to knock out the number 2 p4p fighter in Pacqiauo? Does Bhop have a win that went on to beat a high calibur opponent?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Dedication said:


> Does Bhop have a greater win than Juan Manuel Marquez the guy who went on to knock out the number 2 p4p fighter in Pacqiauo? Does Bhop have a win that went on to beat a high calibur opponent?


That was Marquez pre-roids.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> That was Marquez pre-roids.


memo-trained prime Marquez.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> That was Marquez pre-roids.


Yeah the Marquez that looked bleh versus that Russian fella Floyd better be careful of :lol:


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah the Marquez that looked bleh versus that Russian fella Floyd better be careful of :lol:


Talk about missing the point.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I always assumed you were kidding with the Marquez being on roids thing, Flea.

Do you genuinely believe JMM is on roids?


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I always assumed you were kidding with the Marquez being on roids thing, Flea.
> 
> Do you genuinely believe JMM is on roids?


JMM's chest acne, very random he never had it before.
Then later, another Memo Heredia'd fighter got that same chest acne when he never had it before (what was his name again?)


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I always assumed you were kidding with the Marquez being on roids thing, Flea.
> 
> Do you genuinely believe JMM is on roids?


You are joking? You're not that naive are you? He's one of the most obvious juicers of recent years, if you know what you're looking for.


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

Chatty said:


> If Hopkins can beat Kov and Adonis he will move up significantly in my eyes.
> 
> That will mean he has fully unified and cleaned out two divisions ten years apart, one when he will be literally 50.


He's top 20 if he does that undoubtedly, that's without me even considering who he might be ranked over I don't really care, that would be an *insane *achievement.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> You are joking? You're not that naive are you? He's one of the most obvious juicers of recent years, if you know what you're looking for.


I could be naive, yes, but it's probably more because I don't know what I'm looking for.

I'm safe in assuming then that you don't take JMM's recent activity in to account when ranking him?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I could be naive, yes, but it's probably more because I don't know what I'm looking for.
> 
> I'm safe in assuming then that you don't take JMM's recent activity in to account when ranking him?


Yeah, I do. Doesn't bother me too much, a lot of people are using.

I do think there's a big difference physically between the Marquez thar fought Floyd and subsequent to that though. I don't think it'd make much of a difference in a fight between them admittedly, but it did in the third and fourth Pacquiao fights I think.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, I do. Doesn't bother me too much, a lot of people are using.


Who else is using in your estimation?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Who else is using in your estimation?


Here's one that is a blatant one: Wlad.

Manny probably was using diuretics to cut weight and possibly EPO for some of his fights when he moved up to welter. He may've just been liberated by not cutting as much weight, but I'm a little skeptical.

A lot of fighters. But if I name some others this will likely turn into a slanging match with their fans.

Steroid use is even more rife in MMA.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

I do think floyd is probably ranked higher than bhop atm. Bhop would need to beat both kovalev and stevenson imo. You cant ignore bhop's random losses.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Talk about missing the point.


Even Marquez doesn't want a rematch.


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## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, I do. Doesn't bother me too much, a lot of people are using.
> 
> I do think there's a big difference physically between the Marquez thar fought Floyd and subsequent to that though. I don't think it'd make much of a difference in a fight between them admittedly, but it did in the third and fourth Pacquiao fights I think.


Well if you're gonna rank fighters based solely on the performance that they give in the ring and not what they've achieved after then you'd have to rank Floyd's win over De La Hoya as better than any of Bhops wins given the weight difference and the fishnets that showed up that night.

In fact it ranks up their with Duran's win over SRL.

You're in a no win situation here fam.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Dedication said:


> Well if you're gonna rank fighters based solely on the performance that they give in the ring and not what they've achieved after then you'd have to rank Floyd's win over De La Hoya as better than any of Bhops wins given the weight difference and the fishnets that showed up that night.
> 
> In fact it ranks up their with Duran's win over SRL.
> 
> You're in a no win situation here fam.


You are a troll. Putting you on ignore. Fam.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dedication said:


> Well if you're gonna rank fighters based solely on the performance that they give in the ring and not what they've achieved after then you'd have to rank Floyd's win over De La Hoya as better than any of Bhops wins given the weight difference and the fishnets that showed up that night.
> 
> In fact it ranks up their with Duran's win over SRL.
> 
> You're in a no win situation here fam.


De La Hoya was old against Floyd, though. That wasn't even close to the best version of De La Hoya. Is Floyd's victory over DLH better than Hopkins over Trinidad? I think not. Trinidad may have not been at his best weight, but he was technically undefeated and was seen as a favorite over Hopkins.

For me DLH isn't even Floyd's best win, or performance. Corrales was a better overall performance. Castillo was the better win.


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## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> De La Hoya was old against Floyd, though. That wasn't even close to the best version of De La Hoya. Is Floyd's victory over DLH better than Hopkins over Trinidad? I think not. Trinidad may have not been at his best weight, but he was technically undefeated and was seen as a favorite over Hopkins.
> 
> For me DLH isn't even Floyd's best win, or performance. Corrales was a better overall performance. Castillo was the better win.


OK. Let's at least get a base here going that we can work off so rankings can be taken into account with some sort of civility.

1. What the fighter had achieved prior to the fight in question?

2. What version of the fighter turned up on the night?

3. What the fighter went on to achieve after the fight in question?

And this is all with disregard to what we speculate the fighter may have done illegally before or after to achieve any success.

If there's any more points feel free to add or if you dispute the points then please explain why.

1. Oscar a 6 weight world champion with losses to Bhop, 2x Mosley and Trinidad. Tito an undefeated fighter but a 3 weight world champion. Both coming off strong victories. So logically speaking Tito wins this one.

2. Pound for pound which would be easier to deal with for any fighter throughout history. A slightly undersized Felix Trinidad or an oversized Oscar De La Hoya. I think Oscar wins this one. (Past prime can't be factored in here without descriptive examples on the capabilities Oscar had in his prime that would of helped assure victory).

3. Felix is the better win when adressing point three.

So going off those 3 premises yes Felix Trinidad is the better win in fact he's better than all of Floyd's wins as of yet. But the strength of the individual questions I posed have to be thought about properly as well.


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## Dedication (Jun 9, 2013)

Now. My problems lie with point 1 and 2. How could anyone possibly know how great a win is if they've never had any real success in a boxing ring? Because essentially to assess how great a win is you'd need to know what fighter would win in a hypothetical match-up and no-one on this board can come to an objective agreement on the best of the best squaring off given their limited knowledge. 

For example: OK Tito's undefeated but could he really of beat Mosley the exact same circumstances De La Hoya was in? How can anyone on this board even judge such a th

That's why rankings in itself are flawed to be honest with you.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dedication said:


> 1. What the fighter had achieved prior to the fight in question?
> I don't take too much of that into consideration. The main factor is that Tito was better on that given night.
> 
> 2. What version of the fighter turned up on the night?
> ...


It doesn't really have to be this deep, man. DLH was more accomplished, he was the better P4P fighter. But on the given night, Tito was better I think. So because of that, it's an overall better victory. Oscar was older, he didn't really look himself compared to his prime fights. Give me Corrales or Castillo over old ass DLH any day

Past prime has to he factored in, because DLH was not fighting as he usually did. In his prime, he was quicker, threw better combinations and was much more accurate. It's clear as day that his power was not there, also. He didn't hit as hard as he did when he fought, I don't know, Quartey or Mosley. He also didn't finish strong, like he use to in his prime. His stamina wasn't there. He didn't utilize his jab was much he should have as well, when he was younger his jab was a much more potent weapon.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> It doesn't really have to be this deep, man. DLH was more accomplished, he was the better P4P fighter. But on the given night, *Tito was better I think.*


:sad5


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> :sad5


:huh


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> :huh


Read your statement again


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Read your statement again


for fucks sake, turbo atsch. i believe Trinidad was the better, fresher fighter that particular night against Bhop. overall obviously DLH is better. his career was better. but that old version of DLH is not that great of a win IMO. Knocking out & dominating Trinidad the way Bhop did was more impressive, for me.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> for fucks sake, turbo atsch. i believe Trinidad was the better, fresher fighter that particular night against Bhop. overall obviously DLH is better. his career was better. but that old version of DLH is not that great of a win IMO. Knocking out & dominating Trinidad the way Bhop did was more impressive, for me.


Trinidad was at the absolute peak of his powers when he got mullered by Hopkins. Of course it's a better win than beating '04 DLH, who was arguably coming off two back-to-back losses.






What a terrible Middleweight Trinidad was.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> for fucks sake, turbo atsch. i believe Trinidad was the better, fresher fighter that particular night against Bhop. overall obviously DLH is better. his career was better. but that old version of DLH is not that great of a win IMO. Knocking out & dominating Trinidad the way Bhop did was more impressive, for me.


Thank god Tommy :lol:


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

"Joppy has already established that 'you better move away from me. I'm in charge here tonight'" - Foreman. 

:lol:


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Trinidad was at the absolute peak of his powers when he got mullered by Hopkins. Of course it's a better win than beating '04 DLH, who was arguably coming off two back-to-back losses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yet Marquez will finish with a better resume at welterweight than Tito at middle


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Yet Marquez will finish with a better resume at welterweight than Tito at middle


well, yeah, but it was Marquez's first fight at welterweight wasn't it. he seemed to grow into the weight as time would go on, imo. It depends on who you would deem more dangerous. I think Marquez is one of Floyd's best wins but it's tarnished by the weight a little bit, don't you think?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Yet Marquez will finish with a better resume at welterweight than Tito at middle


The difference in circumstances don't need pointing out to you.

All things considered, Hopkins utter destruction of Trinidad, an established Middleweight at the time, is better and more impressive to me than Floyd pulling JMM up from Lightweight. Definitely.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> The difference in circumstances don't need pointing out to you.
> 
> All things considered, Hopkins utter destruction of Trinidad, an established Middleweight at the time, is better and more impressive to me than Floyd pulling JMM up from Lightweight. Definitely.


Yeah completely. I think people make the mistake of discrediting Trinidad's form at 160 just because we recognise him as THE Trinidad at 147lbs.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yeah completely. I think people make the mistake of discrediting Trinidad's form at 160 just because we recognise him as THE Trinidad at 147lbs.


Trinidad's annihilation of Joppy was what we come to expect from him at both 147lbs and 154lbs. Hopkins was just a better boxer, a better technician, and never allowed Trinidad to set so he could throw those accurate combinations of his.

A very, very good win.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Agreed Addie.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Probz the best win between the two.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Trinidad's annihilation of Joppy was what we come to expect from him at both 147lbs and 160lbs. Hopkins was just a better boxer, a better technician, and never allowed Trinidad to set so he could throw those accurate combinations of his.
> 
> A very, very good win.


Yup. I know Trinidad and Kovalev is different but hey, it's why we still give 49 year old Hopkins a live chance vs Kovalev. 
I rate Joppy, I think he's been very much underrated.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

mmm...


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> The difference in circumstances don't need pointing out to you.
> 
> All things considered, Hopkins utter destruction of Trinidad, an established Middleweight at the time, is better and more impressive to me than Floyd pulling JMM up from Lightweight. Definitely.


Well established because he beat William Joppy.

Let's stick with facts here

Hopkins was a career middleweight

Mayweather had 4 fights above light welterweight, 3 fights at Welterweight and spent 80% of his career at Super Feather

Hopkins was coming off a 5 month layoff.

Mayweather was coming off a 2 year layoff

Bernard Hopkins 6'1 75 inch reach

Tito Trinidad 5'11 72 inch reach

Floyd Mayweather 5'8 72 inch reach

Juan Marquez 5'7 67 inch reach

The fact that this is Hopkins most prestigious win and Mayweathers most criticized says it all about the standards of the two careers


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

BHop is a more complete fighter and has been doing it for much, much longer. Floyd is a good fighter and he would've been GREAT had he campaigned at weight classes where he would've been more complete (i.e., 135 and 140). His choice to move up in weight reduced his effectiveness (primarily his punch) and he's had to rely on outboxing opponents en route to unanimous decisions. Floyd's done great doing what he's done, but he could've made himself a real legacy had he stayed around 140...or at least fought Pacquiao/Canelo @ 154/undefeated Cotto. I'm not a Floyd hater because I truly believe he would've won all those fights, but it will always be speculation :/

The only fight (I'm aware of) that BHop "sort of" ducked was a RJJ rematch which he at least eventually did. Floyd S T I L L believes he's bigger than boxing and won't fight Pacquiao because 1. Top Rank/Bob Arum 2. Pacquiao is using PED's and won't take OSDT 3. Floyd's health

Again, I'm not saying Pacquiao/Top Rank are free of guilty *at all*, because they're cockroaches to the supreme. But I'm specifically looking at Floyd and his stance on things the past few years.


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## BUMPY (Jul 26, 2012)

Yes.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> BHop is a more complete fighter and has been doing it for much, much longer. Floyd is a good fighter and he would've been GREAT had he campaigned at weight classes where he would've been more complete (i.e., 135 and 140). His choice to move up in weight reduced his effectiveness (primarily his punch) and he's had to rely on outboxing opponents en route to unanimous decisions. Floyd's done great doing what he's done, but he could've made himself a real legacy had he stayed around 140...or at least fought Pacquiao/Canelo @ 154/undefeated Cotto. I'm not a Floyd hater because I truly believe he would've won all those fights, but it will always be speculation :/
> 
> The only fight (I'm aware of) that BHop "sort of" ducked was a RJJ rematch which he at least eventually did. Floyd S T I L L believes he's bigger than boxing and won't fight Pacquiao because 1. Top Rank/Bob Arum 2. Pacquiao is using PED's and won't take OSDT 3. Floyd's health
> 
> Again, I'm not saying Pacquiao/Top Rank are free of guilty *at all*, because they're cockroaches to the supreme. But I'm specifically looking at Floyd and his stance on things the past few years.


I tend to disagree. Floyd fighting larger opponents and picking up titles in numerous weight classes are why he's rated so highly.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I tend to disagree. Floyd fighting larger opponents and picking up titles in numerous weight classes are why he's rated so highly.


Besides Corrales (which was a phenomenal win) what elite competition has he fought in their prime AND on neutral terms? It could be argued Corrales was a little drained too tbh


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Well established because he beat William Joppy.
> 
> Let's stick with facts here
> 
> ...


You're missing the point entirely.

I'm far too tired to explain it to you, not that I think you have any intention of changing your views anyhow.

Maybe another poster will explain the difference.


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