# *** Chacal's top 30 p4p list *** (Updated 15/11/2014)



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward 
3) G. Rigondeaux
4) M. Pacquiao 
5) R. Gonzalez
6) W. Klitschko (>8)
7) T. Bradley 
8) J.M. Marquez 
9) J. Estrada
10) C. Froch
11) M Cotto
12) S. Kovalev
13) S. Alvarez
14) A. Stevenson
15) T. Crawford 
16) N. Walters
17) G. Golovkin 
18) D. Garcia 
19) M. Garcia
20) E. Lara 
21) B. Hopkins 
22) N. Donaire 
23) S. Yamanaka
24) T. Uchiyama
25) M. Huck
26) M. Maidana
27) L. Matthysse 
28) K. Brook
39) N. Inoue
30) M. Herrera


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Years ago but Niida was a good win. I'd say Gonzalez.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

:bump


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Years ago but Niida was a good win. I'd say Gonzalez.


Gonzalez is who I usually say but admittedly I need to watch more of him. I've only seen a handful of his fights but you can tell he is an elite fighter from it. He just needs another big win really.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Mikey Garcia


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## KO_VALEV (Feb 5, 2014)

Roman.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Mikey Garcia


I feel he lacks a stand out win. He's building up an okay resume of decent names like Salido, Lopez, Martinez, Burgos but none of them are really that impressive. If he beats someone like Gamboa in impressive fashion, he's got it.


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

Of those I'd probably go:

Gonzalez
Donaire 
Froch
Golovkin
Stevenson 

I think Golovkin is actually the best fighter on the list tho


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

I'd probably still have Donaire in there, had a bad year but was number 2 on a lot of lists and he lost to another P4P star and then stopped Darchinyan even though it was a bad performance. I think he still hangs in there and has enough to hold the place of the likes of Stevenson, Garcia and Gonazalez but he's dropping rather fast.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> Of those I'd probably go:
> 
> Gonzalez
> Donaire
> ...


I feel Stevenson is getting a bit overlooked there. He is on fantastic form. Last year he avenged his only loss by a dominant KO, became the LHW champion of the world in one round and made two defences against decent opponents, dominating them both. While I think he's a bit of a scumbag with his past, I do think he's a tremendous fighter and I think he beats Hopkins and Kovalev. It's all subjective though really isn't it :good


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Chatty said:


> I'd probably still have Donaire in there, had a bad year but was number 2 on a lot of lists and he lost to another P4P star and then stopped Darchinyan even though it was a bad performance. I think he still hangs in there and has enough to hold the place of the likes of Stevenson, Garcia and Gonazalez but he's dropping rather fast.


Yeah, I have him on stand by for now till I see how he does against Vetyeka. He lost to a better fighter in Rigo then found a way to win against a guy who fought the perfect fight, which he deserves the utmost respect for. But still, he shouldn't have had those struggles against Darchinyan. His next fight will tell us a lot, but for now I feel he isn't fully deserving of the 10 spot.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Froch, and that's not just bias. Outside of Ward who is p4p 2 on your list he's cleaned out the division against good names

If you're going on talent GGG and Gonzalez are the two standouts but as you say although everyone can see they're legit, it's strange to rate them that high based on their slates


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Froch, and that's not just bias. Outside of Ward who is p4p 2 on your list he's cleaned out the division against good names


:lol: I just feel the inconclusive ending in the Groves fight makes it difficult for me to say he's the tenth best fighter in the world. I have a lot of time for Froch, I respect him and everything he is done, I recognise he was coming on against Groves (and I'm really mad at the ref for not letting it go on as it fucked over Froch from getting a proper stoppage to eliminate doubt just as much as it fucked over Groves who could have recovered and gone on to win) but I just feel that the lack of a conclusive ending in that fight and the fact he was down in the first and beat up at times in the fight makes me struggle to put him in 10, defo top 15 though. If he beats Groves clearly in a rematch then yes though, he could be there (depending on what the other fighters I listed are doing.)


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

God, I really am indecisive.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I feel he lacks a stand out win. He's building up an okay resume of decent names like Salido, Lopez, Martinez, Burgos but none of them are really that impressive. If he beats someone like Gamboa in impressive fashion, he's got it.


The Salido win was pretty big. Once upon a time, Juan Manuel Lopez was a very highly rated fighter who knocked out Ponce De Leon in 1 round, stopped Rafeal Marquez and had some other decent wins. Salido came and stopped him twice. Then Mikey came and dethroned him in a fight that was seen as almost 50/50 beforehand. 
I did have Donaire there, but I replaced him after the Darchiniyan rematch and after Mikey beatdown Martinez


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> The Salido win was pretty big. Once upon a time, Juan Manuel Lopez was a very highly rated fighter who knocked out Ponce De Leon in 1 round, stopped Rafeal Marquez and had some other decent wins. Salido came and stopped him twice. Then Mikey came and dethroned him in a fight that was seen as almost 50/50 beforehand.
> I did have Donaire there, but I replaced him after the Darchiniyan rematch and after Mikey beatdown Martinez


I was picking Garcia to KO Salido, I'm not so sure the fight was viewed as 50/50 iirc most were picking Garcia. I agree though, it is a very good win. I just feel he needs another big win that would seperate him from the others I listed in this thread (gonzalez, stevenson, GGG, froch, donaire etc)


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## RollinShots (Jun 6, 2013)

carl froch, kessler and groves back 2 back wins


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> :lol: I just feel the inconclusive ending in the Groves fight makes it difficult for me to say he's the tenth best fighter in the world. I have a lot of time for Froch, I respect him and everything he is done, I recognise he was coming on against Groves (and I'm really mad at the ref for not letting it go on as it fucked over Froch from getting a proper stoppage to eliminate doubt just as much as it fucked over Groves who could have recovered and gone on to win) but I just feel that the lack of a conclusive ending in that fight and the fact he was down in the first and beat up at times in the fight makes me struggle to put him in 10, defo top 15 though. If he beats Groves clearly in a rematch then yes though, he could be there (depending on what the other fighters I listed are doing.)


Ye it wasn't a great ending for either man, but a wins a win, Froch did what he had to do so I have to give him credit even if the ending was unsatisfactory, his record is every bit the equal of the other top ten and until Gonzalez and GGG catch up ill have him ahead (assuming he wins again in May :lol


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

RollinShots said:


> carl froch, kessler and groves back 2 back wins


One could argue Kessler is past his best and still made it a close fight and that Groves was unfairly stopped :conf Personally I wouldn't but the inconclusive ending in the Groves fight makes me wonder, and in turn puts him in the pot with the others I mentioned


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Ye it wasn't a great ending for either man, but a wins a win, Froch did what he had to do so I have to give him credit even if the ending was unsatisfactory, his record is every bit the equal of the other top ten and until Gonzalez and GGG catch up ill have him ahead (assuming he wins again in May :lol


Comparison to draw between Froch and Donaire. Both have fantastic resume's, both lost very clear decisions to those who are now recognised as the best in their divisions (Ward and Rigondeaux), both had very tought fights last time out and came from behind to secure a stoppage. The only difference being Donaire's stoppage wasn't controversial. Can you make a case for Froch being rated above Donaire :think


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

Chacal said:


> I feel Stevenson is getting a bit overlooked there. He is on fantastic form. Last year he avenged his only loss by a dominant KO, became the LHW champion of the world in one round and made two defences against decent opponents, dominating them both. While I think he's a bit of a scumbag with his past, I do think he's a tremendous fighter and I think he beats Hopkins and Kovalev. It's all subjective though really isn't it :good


He has been impressive no doubt, but his best win is a one hit pot shot over Dawson who was not long knocked out. Cloud and Bellew have always been a tier below. He is a good fighter who is getting better, but I wouldn't have him in my top 10.

I also think Kovalev beats him


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## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

Gonzalez. Looked great vs Kantun the other night especially with Kantun adopting Estrada-esque tacticts.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Comparison to draw between Froch and Donaire. Both have fantastic resume's, both lost very clear decisions to those who are now recognised as the best in their divisions (Ward and Rigondeaux), both had very tought fights last time out and came from behind to secure a stoppage. The only difference being Donaire's stoppage wasn't controversial. Can you make a case for Froch being rated above Donaire :think


Good shout, ill come back to this I reckon as I'm otherwise engaged but it's a good point. Off the top of my head I would say Groves now is better than Vic now but that aside you make a good point, ill think on it mate as I was sleeping on Donaire I guess :good


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> He has been impressive no doubt, but his best win is a one hit pot shot over Dawson who was not long knocked out. Cloud and Bellew have always been a tier below. He is a good fighter who is getting better, but I wouldn't have him in my top 10.
> 
> I also think Kovalev beats him


That's fair. I thought Kovalev for a while too but decided to put my balls out there and go for Stevenson. I feel he's got the better defence and boxing ability, and I feel Kovalev won't be quite as aggressive after tasting the power. Great fight though, really interesting to me. One of the fights I want most in 2014.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Ivan Drago said:


> Gonzalez. Looked great vs Kantun the other night especially with Kantun adopting Estrada-esque tacticts.


Kantun is a level below really. I do agree with you though, I think Gonzalez has the biggest shout at that 10 spot.



JamieC said:


> Good shout, ill come back to this I reckon as I'm otherwise engaged but it's a good point. Off the top of my head I would say Groves now is better than Vic now but that aside you make a good point, ill think on it mate as I was sleeping on Donaire I guess :good


Good stuff mate, tag me in the post when you do it as I feel this is a very good discussion point. Current Groves is better than current Vic but I'd say, which you may disagree with, Donaire's resume pre-rigo was a bit better than Froch's. That is debatable though. I look forwards to your response mate :good


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## knockout artist (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> My list as it stands goes a little like this (I keep changing people about cause I'm indecisive):
> 
> 1) Floyd Mayweather Jr
> 2) Andre Ward
> ...


Stevenson took out Dawson, Cloud and Bellew in 3 fights, all were top 10 rated light heavyweights. I'd put him in your number 10 spot, Donaire could also have a case, he shouldn't be heavily slated for losing to Rigondeaux.

Golovkin and Froch don't have a case to be in there at all, I haven't seen much of Gonzalez


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## VG_Addict (Mar 13, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Kantun is a level below really. I do agree with you though, I think Gonzalez has the biggest shout at that 10 spot.
> 
> Good stuff mate, tag me in the post when you do it as I feel this is a very good discussion point. Current Groves is better than current Vic but I'd say, which you may disagree with, Donaire's resume pre-rigo was a bit better than Froch's. That is debatable though. I look forwards to your response mate :good


Sorry if this is a bit OT, but who do you think would win between Kovalev and Pascal?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> The Salido win was pretty big. Once upon a time, Juan Manuel Lopez was a very highly rated fighter who knocked out Ponce De Leon in 1 round, stopped Rafeal Marquez and had some other decent wins. Salido came and stopped him twice. Then Mikey came and dethroned him in a fight that was seen as almost 50/50 beforehand.
> I did have Donaire there, but I replaced him after the Darchiniyan rematch and after Mikey beatdown Martinez


Marquez was a shot fighter.

Gamboa had beaten Salido in first gear.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Ivan Drago said:


> Gonzalez. Looked great vs Kantun the other night especially with Kantun adopting Estrada-esque tacticts.





knockout artist said:


> Stevenson took out Dawson, Cloud and Bellew in 3 fights, all were top 10 rated light heavyweights. I'd put him in your number 10 spot, Donaire could also have a case, he shouldn't be heavily slated for losing to Rigondeaux.
> 
> Gonzalez, Golovkin and Froch don't have a case to be in there at all


I see this case of the argument but you should have a read through the thread and see other people's arguments for different fighters. Some good discussion going on here :good


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

If you give Donaire the same benefit of the doubt Marquez is getting for losing to a P4P fighter then Nonito is fair.

If you think he looked shoddy against Vic and want to exclude him, also fair.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

VG_Addict said:


> Sorry if this is a bit OT, but who do you think would win between Kovalev and Pascal?


Kovalev by knockout :good


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> Stevenson took out Dawson, Cloud and Bellew in 3 fights, all were top 10 rated light heavyweights. I'd put him in your number 10 spot, Donaire could also have a case, he shouldn't be heavily slated for losing to Rigondeaux.
> 
> Golovkin and Froch don't have a case to be in there at all, I haven't seen much of Gonzalez


Gonzalez has more a claim than Stevenson!


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

The way I'm seeing this work out is:

Gonzalez and Golovkin have both looked phenomenal, but lack the names on their resume.

Donaire and Froch have great resume's but have been more or less dominated by the best fighter they have faced and looked weak in their last outings, despite coming out on top (however you view the stoppage in Froch - Groves)

Stevenson and Garcia have been on very good form against decent opponents but need to get one more big win to prove a point. 

Just depends what you like. Deep resume's, recent form or the skills on display against lower opposition.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> Stevenson took out Dawson, Cloud and Bellew in 3 fights, all were top 10 rated light heavyweights. I'd put him in your number 10 spot, Donaire could also have a case, he shouldn't be heavily slated for losing to Rigondeaux.
> 
> Golovkin and Froch don't have a case to be in there at all, I haven't seen much of Gonzalez


Jesus you don't like Froch do you? :lol:


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## knockout artist (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Gonzalez has more a claim than Stevenson!


You may well be right, I can't comment on him as I haven't seen much of him, and know very little about the flyweight division. I'm just commenting on the fighters I have seen


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## knockout artist (Jun 5, 2013)

JamieC said:


> Jesus you don't like Froch do you? :lol:


:lol: That's not entirely fair, I've always tuned in to his fights, cheered him on and always say his fights are great entertainment

Do I rate him as one of the top 10 fighters in the world? Absolutely not. I know you're a huge fan, but even you must be able to admit up until the Groves fight, Froch was getting overrated to a degree, I've always maintained that, doesn't mean I dislike him as fighter


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> :lol: That's not entirely fair, I've always tuned in to his fights, cheered him on and always say his fights are great entertainment
> 
> Do I rate him as one of the top 10 fighters in the world? Absolutely not. I know you're a huge fan, but even you must be able to admit up until the Groves fight, Froch was getting overrated to a degree, I've always maintained that, doesn't mean I dislike him as fighter


It's a weird one with Froch as I see people who over rate him and people who under rate him and try to downplay his resume all the time. I personally feel his resume is very good and he's done well to get as far as he has given his lack of conventional skills. I think his future is in the balance with the Groves fight. As it stands I have him top 15, if he impresses in a rematch he has a good shout at the 10 spot depending what other fighters are doing, if he loses, he's dropping a fair bit I'm afraid. This is a very important time in the career of carl froch.


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## VG_Addict (Mar 13, 2013)

Another question: Even if Kovalev loses to Stevenson, could Kovalev still become the lineal champion? When Stevenson retires, which will probably happen not long after the Kovalev fight, could Kovalev pick up his vacant belt?


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## knockout artist (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> It's a weird one with Froch as I see people who over rate him and people who under rate him and try to downplay his resume all the time. I personally feel his resume is very good and he's done well to get as far as he has given his lack of conventional skills. I think his future is in the balance with the Groves fight. As it stands I have him top 15, if he impresses in a rematch he has a good shout at the 10 spot depending what other fighters are doing, if he loses, he's dropping a fair bit I'm afraid. This is a very important time in the career of carl froch.


He was probably getting underrated after the loss to Ward, as Ward made him look worse than he is. Since the Kessler fight I felt he was getting overrated up until the Groves fight. The truth lies somewhere in between, Froch is world class in his division, and has done very well for himself. However, when I see comments such as his 'resume' matches the likes of Mayweather, Pacquiao, Bradley then it's just a ridiculous comment, and even though it looks like I'm playing down his record, it's more like putting it into perspective. If that all makes sense.

As for the Groves rematch, I like Groves but how exactly does beating Groves put Froch in the top 10? Groves hasn't beaten any world class fighters himself, his reputation is made on impressing against Froch in the first fight. If Groves wins, will you put him in the top 15?


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

VG_Addict said:


> Another question: Even if Kovalev loses to Stevenson, could Kovalev still become the lineal champion? When Stevenson retires, which will probably happen not long after the Kovalev fight, could Kovalev pick up his vacant belt?


I think Kovalev and Stevenson are on a similar level, I don't see Kovalev losing to anybody who isn't Stevenson at 175 currently and even then it's a very close fight. So yes, unless something extreme happened like Stevenson ruins his confidence and mentality and he goes the way of someone like Bute, he's definitely got all the tools to have a career even if he loses to superman :good


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> He was probably getting underrated after the loss to Ward, as Ward made him look worse than he is. Since the Kessler fight I felt he was getting overrated up until the Groves fight. The truth lies somewhere in between, Froch is world class in his division, and has done very well for himself. However, when I see comments such as his 'resume' matches the likes of Mayweather, Pacquiao, Bradley then it's just a ridiculous comment, and even though it looks like I'm playing down his record, it's more like putting it into perspective. If that all makes sense.
> 
> As for the Groves rematch, I like Groves but how exactly does beating Groves put Froch in the top 10? Groves hasn't beaten any world class fighters himself, his reputation is made on impressing against Froch in the first fight


I get you mate. It's debatable for sure. I personally feel he is on the level that he can be rated in or near the top 10 though


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## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Kantun is a level below really. I do agree with you though, I think Gonzalez has the biggest shout at that 10 spot.


True, it was just a stay busy fight but he looked sharp and broke him down beautifully. I feel in a fight or two there will be no question of him being top 10 P4P, I reckon him and Estrada will be in there by the end of the year.


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## knockout artist (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I get you mate. It's debatable for sure. I personally feel he is on the level that he can be rated in or near the top 10 though


yeah fair enough, what is your prediction for the rematch?


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> :lol: That's not entirely fair, I've always tuned in to his fights, cheered him on and always say his fights are great entertainment
> 
> Do I rate him as one of the top 10 fighters in the world? Absolutely not. I know you're a huge fan, but even you must be able to admit up until the Groves fight, Froch was getting overrated to a degree, I've always maintained that, doesn't mean I dislike him as fighter


Thats fair enough mate :lol: but I can't have him below Stevenson, and if that's me being biased I don't care as I love Carl (total ****) and dislike Stevenson :lol: :deal


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Marquez was a shot fighter.
> 
> Gamboa had beaten Salido in first gear.


Marquez still gave Nishokia a good fight 2 bouts later


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## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Klitschko doesn't deserve to be on the list simply for his constant flouting of the rules, Povetkin would have been a difficult fight for Wladimir had it been fought under universal boxing rules. His opposition barring Povetkin has been relatively poor compared to others on the P4P list and for that reason his dominance of the division alone is not enough.

It debatable whether Martinez really deserves to be that high up on the list, his last big win coming almost a year and half ago which was followed by a very debatable decision over Martin Murray. If Martinez were to bounce back with an impressive performance against Cotto i think only then can he be considered as high as #6 .

I think Stevenson has a stronger case than both currently to be placed on your list. He has a big victory over the then reigning WBC champ Dawson at his natural weight class, an impressive victory over recently disposed champ in Tavoris Cloud and then rounded the year off nicely with the victory over his mandatory Tony Bellew. May i hasten to add this was all done in a years work, quantity and quality really should be rewarded.


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## knockout artist (Jun 5, 2013)

JamieC said:


> Thats fair enough mate :lol: but I can't have him below Stevenson, and if that's me being biased I don't care as I love Carl (total ****) and dislike Stevenson :lol: :deal


Fair play :lol: pound for pound is completely subjective, fun to debate but no ones really right or wrong. Personally, I don't think Pacquiao should be outside the top 5, but that's because he's one of my favourite fighters ever.

Do you think Froch will set the record straight in the rematch? For me it depends how much he has left in the tank, I genuinely wouldn't be surprised at any outcome in the fight, both guys can hurt each other at any time


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

DOM5153 said:


> Klitschko doesn't deserve to be on the list simply for his constant flouting of the rules, Povetkin would have been a difficult fight for Wladimir had it been fought under universal boxing rules. His opposition barring Povetkin has been relatively poor compared to others on the P4P list and for that reason his dominance of the division alone is not enough.
> 
> It debatable whether Martinez really deserves to be that high up on the list, his last big win coming almost a year and half ago which was followed by a very debatable decision over Martin Murray. If Martinez were to bounce back with an impressive performance against Cotto i think only then can he be considered as high as #6 .
> 
> I think Stevenson has a stronger case than both currently to be placed on your list. He has a big victory over the then reigning WBC champ Dawson at his natural weight class, an impressive victory over recently disposed champ in Tavoris Cloud and then rounded the year off nicely with the victory over his mandatory Tony Bellew. May i hasten to add this was all done in a years work, quantity and quality really should be rewarded.


It's all subjective and I'm happy with my list and disagree with some of your points, but that isn't what this thread is about. It's more so who is deserving of the 10th spot out of the people I named.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> Fair play :lol: pound for pound is completely subjective, fun to debate but no ones really right or wrong. Personally, I don't think Pacquiao should be outside the top 5, but that's because he's one of my favourite fighters ever.
> 
> Do you think Froch will set the record straight in the rematch? For me it depends how much he has left in the tank, I genuinely wouldn't be surprised at any outcome in the fight, both guys can hurt each other at any time


You're bang on mate, nothing would surprise me it all depends on how much Froch has left like you say. If he can still take Groves best shots again he'll come on strong and get the stoppage again, but if the last fight has taken it out of him Groves stoppage wouldn't be out of the question or Froch could labour to a points loss. I'm going Froch stoppage on the assumption he's still in the same condition as before


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## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Chacal said:


> It's all subjective and I'm happy with my list and disagree with some of your points, but that isn't what this thread is about. It's more so who is deserving of the 10th spot out of the people I named.


My points probably came across as more forceful than intended, it is a good list and other than swapping the names around a little bit i wouldn't change too much. To answer the question Stevenson gets my vote for sure.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> yeah fair enough, what is your prediction for the rematch?


Withheld until further notice. Anything could happen.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

DOM5153 said:


> My points probably came across as more forceful than intended, it is a good list and other than swapping the names around a little bit i wouldn't change too much. To answer the question Stevenson gets my vote for sure.


:good


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## stevebhoy87 (Jun 4, 2013)

Gonzalez for me, I think Estrada deserves to be in the mix too


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Thats fair enough mate :lol: but I can't have him below Stevenson, and if that's me being biased I don't care as I love Carl (total ****) and dislike Stevenson :lol: :deal


I can understand you hating Stevenson as a person, I really can, but you must recognise that he is exciting, skilled, improving all the time AND a huge puncher to boot? I really like his style as a fighter. He can counter punch with a devastating left hand and he's not afraid to press the action later. The fact he can end the fight at any time makes it even more exciting to me. Like I say, I understand people hating him and wanting him to lose, but I feel some people overlook how good he is because of this.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> I can understand you hating Stevenson as a person, I really can, but you must recognise that he is exciting, skilled, improving all the time AND a huge puncher to boot? I really like his style as a fighter. He can counter punch with a devastating left hand and he's not afraid to press the action later. The fact he can end the fight at any time makes it even more exciting to me. Like I say, I understand people hating him and wanting him to lose, but I feel some people overlook how good he is because of this.


Ye I'm only messing, he's gotta be top 15 but top 10 is a push at the minute, you have to give him credit for Dawson, but outside of that I think Kovalev had a better year in all honesty. If Stevenson beats Kovalev he's a lock for top 10 imo


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Stevenson deserves to be top ten for sure



JamieC said:


> I think Kovalev had a better year in all honesty


Dawson, Cloud and Bellew are better wins than Campillo, Cleverly and Sillakh


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Stevenson deserves to be top ten for sure
> 
> Dawson, Cloud and Bellew are better wins than Campillo, Cleverly and Sillakh


Dawson is better the other two are not. Other than Dawson who was coming off a knockout loss to someone who isn't a big puncher in the weight below his other wins aren't much to shout about in terms of p4p top ten


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Dawson is better the other two are not. Other than Dawson who was coming off a knockout loss to someone who isn't a big puncher in the weight below his other wins aren't much to shout about in terms of p4p top ten


In fairness, a KO of the LHW champion in 1 round (he was clearly drained against ward) followed by defending against 2 top 10 opponents is very impressive.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

4 fights, 4 wins, 4 ko's. Avenge your sole loss, beat the LHW champ, defend the title twice in dominant fashion.

I'd say he is definitely in with a very good shout :conf


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

DSG is #10 . He's lineal at 140 and has earned it the hard way. Adonis and Kovalev need to face each other. Mikey still needs a couple fights or a Gamboa win. GGG is so cateres it's not even funny...his camp wont fight Lara @ 160. That looks really, really bad - def not PFP yet

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> In fairness, a KO of the LHW champion in 1 round (he was clearly drained against ward) followed by defending against 2 top 10 opponents is very impressive.


It's very impressive but he's one more big win off the top 10 for me, Kovalev would do it


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

JamieC said:


> Dawson is better the other two are not. Other than Dawson who was coming off a knockout loss to someone who isn't a big puncher in the weight below his other wins aren't much to shout about in terms of p4p top ten


Froch really looked worn in his lasting but he could be 10 too. Curious to see how he fares in the rematch - i think he'll win more honestly this time around. But, atm (for me), DSG is the more complete fighter

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> DSG is #10 . He's lineal at 140 and has earned it the hard way. Adonis and Kovalev need to face each other. Mikey still needs a couple fights or a Gamboa win. GGG is so cateres it's not even funny...his camp wont fight Lara @ 160. That looks really, really bad - def not PFP yet
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2


I got Danny at 9 bruh


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

JamieC said:


> It's very impressive but he's one more big win off the top 10 for me, Kovalev would do it


Would a win over Hopkins do it?


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## Kid Cubano (Jun 5, 2013)

definitely Mikey Garcia among top 10.
your list is pretty good.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> The way I'm seeing this work out is:
> 
> Gonzalez and Golovkin have both looked phenomenal, but lack the names on their resume.
> 
> ...


Omar Soto, 'Chango' Vargas', Takayama, all as good as Bellew. Niida (years back but Gonzalez's streak is longer than Adonis') and Estrada should put the Nicaraguan above Adonis IMO.

If Gonzalez is being penalised for fighting more regularly (I'm sure people will say he's fought his share of bums but that's only to stay active which he struggled with after his first title win) than I'd say that's unfair.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Omar Soto, 'Chango' Vargas', Takayama, all as good as Bellew. Niida (years back but Gonzalez's streak is longer than Adonis') and Estrada should put the Nicaraguan above Adonis IMO.
> 
> If Gonzalez is being penalised for fighting more regularly (I'm sure people will say he's fought his share of bums but that's only to stay active which he struggled with after his first title win) than I'd say that's unfair.


Good post :good


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Stevenson deserves to be top ten for sure
> 
> Dawson, Cloud and Bellew are better wins than Campillo, Cleverly and Sillakh


Campillo would've been MUCH higher regarded had he not been robbed so many times. He was Clouds bossman. Cleverly was Bellews superior. Dawson was coming off a loss and hadn't been impressive in a while anyway.

I'd say Adonis by a hair.


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> DSG is #10 . He's lineal at 140 and has earned it the hard way. Adonis and Kovalev need to face each other. Mikey still needs a couple fights or a Gamboa win. GGG is so cateres it's not even funny...his camp wont fight Lara @ 160. That looks really, really bad - def not PFP yet
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2


Lara and Stevenson both deserve to be above Garcia. Garcias best wins are Khan and Matthysse who had already lost to Zab and Alexander


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Would a win over Hopkins do it?


For me, definitely. Hopkins still good enough to beat Pascal and Cloud. He's a top 5 LHW.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

knockout artist said:


> You may well be right, I can't comment on him as I haven't seen much of him, and know very little about the flyweight division. I'm just commenting on the fighters I have seen


My bad, fair enough.


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Campillo would've been MUCH higher regarded had he not been robbed so many times. He was Clouds bossman. Cleverly was Bellews superior. Dawson was coming off a loss and hadn't been impressive in a while anyway.


Dawsons previous fight at LHW was a clear win over Hopkins (despite the MD)


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Seppuku Yamanaka above them all.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Lara and Stevenson both deserve to be above Garcia. Garcias best wins are Khan and Matthysse who had already lost to Zab and Alexander


You on drugs? If you think Alexander and Judah beat Matthyse then you must also think Bradley beat Pacquiao and PWill beat Lara...:yep

Matthyse took the fight to Alexander, winning 6-4 with a KD. The Judah fight was Matthyse's first in the US (I believe) and he just started slow. Matthyse clearly dominated the fight and Zab was very happy when it ended. At worst, it was a draw, but Matthyse won by 2 on my scorecard.

And Khan wasn't washed up until Danny Garcia. The loss to Lamont was like a wake-up call, but everyone (myself included) expected Khan to blitz lil Danny. Danny is solely responsible for ruining Amir. Amir has never been the same since round 3 with DSG.

I'll take DSG over Stevenson who needs to fight Kovalev...

Lara? You mean the Lara that drew with Vanes and Molina and got KD twice by Angulo? Not even close to PFP. Needs to beat Canelo or Molina in dominating fashion. One spectacular win over Trout doesn't equate to PFP status lol


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Lara and Stevenson both deserve to be above Garcia. Garcias best wins are Khan and Matthysse who had already lost to Zab and Alexander


Oh, dear.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Seppuku Yamanaka above them all.


Give reasoning, educate me.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Give reasoning, educate me.


Good solid bantamweight titlist who can really bang. But no, he's not top 10 material just yet. Scary KO win over the unreliable Rojas, beat Vic via decision and stopped former lineal Flyweight champ (and seemingly eternally ranked) Tunacao.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) Floyd Mayweather Jr
2) Andre Ward
3) Timothy Bradley
4) Guillermo Rigondeaux
5) Juan Manuel Marquez
6) Sergio Martinez
7) Manny Pacquiao
8) Wladamir Klitschko (would be higher but his non stop clinching makes me reluctant) 
9) Danny Garcia
10) Roman Gonzalez
11) Adonis Stevenson
12) Nonito Donaire
13) Carl Froch
14) Mikey Garcia
15) ...
is what I'm thinking my list is going to look like for now. I'm currently thinking Stevenson in front of Froch and Donaire due to recent form, both Froch and Donaire looked bad in their last outings, but if they are impressive in their next fights and eliminate doubt they will progress past Stevenson UNLESS he faces Hopkins or Kovalev and wins. 

Any suggested changes to my list are welcome if good reasoning is given.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> 1) Floyd Mayweather Jr
> 2) Andre Ward
> 3) Timothy Bradley
> 4) Guillermo Rigondeaux
> ...


That's fair but Nonito> Froch


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Good solid bantamweight titlist who can really bang. But no, he's not top 10 material just yet. Scary KO win over the unreliable Rojas, beat Vic via decision and stopped former lineal Flyweight champ (and seemingly eternally ranked) Tunacao.


Would you argue him into my top 15 or is he in the 16-20 range with guys like Lara, Golovkin, Estrada, Hopkins?


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> You on drugs? If you think Alexander and Judah beat Matthyse then you must also think Bradley beat Pacquiao and PWill beat Lara...:yep
> 
> Matthyse took the fight to Alexander, winning 6-4 with a KD. The Judah fight was Matthyse's first in the US (I believe) and he just started slow. Matthyse clearly dominated the fight and Zab was very happy when it ended. At worst, it was a draw, but Matthyse won by 2 on my scorecard.
> 
> ...


I think Matthysse deserved the nod against Alexander but you can't argue with a Judah win

Laras wins over Paul Williams, Angulo and Trout are more impressive than what Dannys done. And fighting Herrera aint helping his case for p4p


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> Froch really looked worn in his lasting but he could be 10 too. Curious to see how he fares in the rematch - i think he'll win more honestly this time around. But, atm (for me), DSG is the more complete fighter
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2


he could well prove to be but for me he hasn't been at the top table long enough yet



Chacal said:


> Would a win over Hopkins do it?


Ye i think so, or would have him very close for me. He'd certainly enter the debate for me which he isnt in now


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> That's fair but Nonito> Froch


I agree that Nonito's resume is better than Froch's and I guess his stoppage of Donaire was more legitimate than Froch's of Groves, but I feel Groves is better than the current Darchinyan. It's a tough one, but I feel you may be right as Froch's win is very debatable.


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Oh, dear.


Matthysse was hugely overhyped, deal with it


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Would you argue him into my top 15 or is he in the 16-20 range with guys like Lara, Golovkin, Estrada, Hopkins?


Lara. Yuck.

Yeah, 16-20 probably. I'd have Estrada above Golovkin, if not on talent/potential but Viloria is better than anything on GGG's ledger thus far.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Lara. Yuck.
> 
> Yeah, 16-20 probably. I'd have Estrada above Golovkin, if not on talent/potential but Viloria is better than anything on GGG's ledger thus far.


Wins over Williams, Trout and Angulo aren't bad. He's clearly skilled too. Do you not think he deserves to be top 20? I think he's the best at 154 (excluding floyd)


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Wins over Williams, Trout and Angulo aren't bad. He's clearly skilled too. Do you not think he deserves to be top 20? I think he's the best at 154 (excluding floyd)


Lara deserves to be top 10 in the eyes of any unbiased fan


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Matthysse was hugely overhyped, deal with it


He was but still a quality top 3 contender and quality win.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Lara deserves to be top 10 in the eyes of any unbiased fan


I am unbiased and a fan of Lara. He isn't top 10.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Lara deserves to be top 10 in the eyes of any unbiased fan


Fucking Hell you are a spastic son.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Fucking Hell you are a spastic son.


I find it hard with Lara. He has some good wins of williams, angulo and trout but his lackadaisical performances against Martirosyan, Molina and Hernandez make me struggle to find the reasoning for him being top 10 or 15 for that matter.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) Floyd Mayweather Jr
2) Andre Ward
3) Timothy Bradley
4) Guillermo Rigondeaux
5) Juan Manuel Marquez
6) Sergio Martinez
7) Manny Pacquiao
8) Wladamir Klitschko (would be higher but his non stop clinching makes me reluctant) 
9) Danny Garcia
10) Roman Gonzalez
11) Adonis Stevenson
12) Nonito Donaire
13) Carl Froch
14) Mikey Garcia
15) ...


Should 15th place be Estrada or Hopkins... hmmm...


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Give reasoning, educate me.





Flea Man said:


> Good solid bantamweight titlist who can really bang. But no, he's not top 10 material just yet. Scary KO win over the unreliable Rojas, beat Vic via decision and stopped former lineal Flyweight champ (and seemingly eternally ranked) Tunacao.


You forgot to mention his FOTY vs Iwasa:ibutt

I'd say Yamanaka's a better boxer than Uchiyama who plenty people (well, those who've heard of him) rated highly before his last fight happened.

Fighters like Mikey Garcia considered by some top-10 material.

Mikey's best win is Salido - is it really that better than Darchinyan win?

Not that Yamanaka definitely deserves to be in the top-10 just a bit overlooked I feel.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> You forgot to mention his FOTY vs Iwasa:ibutt
> 
> I'd say Yamanaka's a better boxer than Uchiyama who plenty people (well, those who've heard of him) rated highly before his last fight happened.
> 
> ...


This is all fair.

I'd say Uchiyama deserves a shout too....but what happened in his last fight, I haven't seen it????


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Fucking Hell you are a spastic son.


Dont blame me cos YDKSAB


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

*Juan Estrada*

I didn't know an awful lot about the Mexican Flyweight until his huge win over Brian Viloria, who I previously rated top 10 p4p. When he won this fight the real thing it reflected on for me was how good Gonzalez really is, which further boosted him in my eyes. This win over Viloria is huge but the fact still remains that in 2012 Estrada lost a decision to Roman Gonzalez.

*Bernard Hopkins*

One of the smartest fighters around at age 49 every time he wins against a guy in his 20's - 30's it amazes me. His win over Cloud was impressive, but I expected it. His win over Murat, however, did not impress me. I'm not sure if he was being tagged because he's on the decline or because he was trying to be more exciting than usual and show he could outslug a younger guy, but he should NOT be getting hit by guys like Murat.

Who is more deserving of the 15th spot...


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Dont blame me cos YDKSAB


:lol:


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> This is all fair.
> 
> I'd say Uchiyama deserves a shout too....but what happened in his last fight, I haven't seen it????


Uchiyama is definitely in with a shout. He'll be in there between 15 and 20 I imagine.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Dont blame me cos YDKSAB


Come on now. Fleaman is one of the few people I avoid arguing with because his knowledge of historic boxing and the lower weights is insane. He's probably forgotten more about boxing than you and I put together have ever learned. You may disagree with him but his boxing knowledge is on point.


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> :lol:


Just because your life is an internet boxing forum doesnt mean you know anything. sorry


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Uchiyama is definitely in with a shout. He'll be in there between 15 and 20 I imagine.


Thinking about it....as Ioka beat Yaegashi, shouldn't he be given props just as Gonzalez is for beating Estrada? Ioka unified at straw and now de facto no.1 light fly.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I'd say Uchiyama deserves a shout too....but what happened in his last fight, I haven't seen it????


Uchiyama got knocked down hard in the 10-th and didn't looked good in 11th and 12th.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Thinking about it....as Ioka beat Yaegashi, shouldn't he be given props just as Gonzalez is for beating Estrada? Ioka unified at straw and now de facto no.1 light fly.


I don't know enough about these guys :conf I'll watch some of Ioka's fights later but for now if you could suggest where you would place him in my list so I can have a general idea that'd be appreciated


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Thinking about it....as Ioka beat Yaegashi, shouldn't he be given props just as Gonzalez is for beating Estrada? Ioka unified at straw and now de facto no.1 light fly.


Ioka has refused to fight Chocolatito.

So no.:fire


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Just because your life is an internet boxing forum doesnt mean you know anything. sorry


Yeah, because you're not posting on here?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Come on now. Fleaman is one of the few people I avoid arguing with because his knowledge of historic boxing and the lower weights is insane. He's probably forgotten more about boxing than you and I put together have ever learned. You may disagree with him but his boxing knowledge is on point.


Appreciate it but there are gaping holes in my knowledge. Guys like yourself help me to fill in the blanks :good


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) Floyd Mayweather Jr
2) Andre Ward
3) Timothy Bradley
4) Guillermo Rigondeaux
5) Juan Manuel Marquez
6) Sergio Martinez
7) Manny Pacquiao
8) Wladamir Klitschko (would be higher but his non stop clinching makes me reluctant) 
9) Danny Garcia
10) Roman Gonzalez
11) Adonis Stevenson
12) Nonito Donaire
13) Carl Froch
14) Bernard Hopkins
15) Mikey Garcia
16) Juan Estrada


I put Hopkins in front of Garcia as his body of work is better and his age makes it even more impressive. 2 time lineal champ and still a belt holder which he got from taking Cloud's 0. He deserved 2 wins over Pascal too and despite being hit a lot against Murat he still won the fight pretty clearly.


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## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Come on now. Fleaman is one of the few people I avoid arguing with because his knowledge of historic boxing and the lower weights is insane. He's probably forgotten more about boxing than you and I put together have ever learned. You may disagree with him but his boxing knowledge is on point.


Thats all good but he behaves like an insecure, aggressive little boy that needs to grow up


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> Thats all good but he behaves like an insecure, aggressive little boy that needs to grow up


Your posts are oh, so much better.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

4 places left in the top 20

Uchiyama, Lara, Golovkin, Ioka and Yamanaka are all in the running for this. I do not know enough about Ioka and Yamanaka yet. Uchiyama is a destroyer but apparently looked bad in his last fight, Lara is inconsistent but has some very good wins on his resume and GGG looks to be phenomenal but lacks names on his resume. 

Anybody else in the running for the last 4 places? Suggestions welcome.


----------



## The Wanderer (Jul 17, 2013)

Chacal said:


> My list as it stands goes a little like this (I keep changing people about cause I'm indecisive):
> 
> 1) Floyd Mayweather Jr
> 2) Andre Ward
> ...


From your choices I'd pick Froch. He's had a long history of success at the top level, and if he looks vulnerable because of his fight with Groves, then what does that make Sergio Martinez, who has been looking somewhat vulnerable and underwhelming for years and piling on injuries as well? (I actually don't think there's anyone else in the top 10 as ripe for an upset as Sergio, which is too bad because he's a good fighter and I like the guy.)

Except for guys who are only fringe top 10, I think it usually takes more than 1 off performance to bump them out of the list, especially if they've proven their track record beforehand. I've never thought that Froch was a tremendously special or gifted fighter, but the dude always finds a way to win, and fights almost nothing but world class competition. Vulnerability would justify him being in danger of getting knocked off the list, (especially with guys like Mikey Garcia trying to break into it) but it's not enough to make me drop him quite yet. Another bad performance would do it.

From choices outside the one you named, Mikey Garcia is the standout to me. There are things I don't like about how he fights, including his lack of activity and letting guys get off the hook when they're hurt, but he's certainly got the skills, has put together a lot of good wins, (nothing spectacular, but a lot of good wins) and he's certainly been impressive so far. I think he's right on the cusp, and another good win should certainly put him over for those who don't think he's there already.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> I think Matthysse deserved the nod against Alexander but you can't argue with a Judah win
> 
> Laras wins over Paul Williams, Angulo and Trout are more impressive than what Dannys done. And fighting Herrera aint helping his case for p4p


I can accept the Judah loss although everyone knows Matthyse controlled the fight...he just started very, very late. The first 4-5 rounds he was very inactive and let Judah dictate everything. However, any observer could tell you Judah was moving for dear life in the championship rounds. If it had been a 15-rounder, Matthyse wins undoubtedly and probably by stoppage. However, I can see how Judah narrowly won the 12-rounder.

People give Angulo too much credit or maybe I don't give him enough, but in his fight immediately prior to Lara (against Jorge Silva) he looked like absolute shit. I actually thought he lost against Silva (who is a feather-fisted WW). He never hurt Silva and Silva controlled much of the pace and even backed Angulo up several times. So I don't give Lara a world of credit for beating Angulo and getting KD twice (and the 2nd KD legit hurt him). Trout was a solid win, but it was more a result of good style matchup for Lara imo. PWill happened...years ago...and it was PWill's first fight after Sergio had the KOTY, so again...not that impressive all things considered.

Lara's draws against Vanes and Molina really prevent me from embracing him as a dominant fighter. He clearly has unresolved issues with some styles. But I think he's probably the #1 JMW (Lara), but not PFP for me.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Anybody else in the running for the last 4 places? Suggestions welcome.


Krusher


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

The Wanderer said:


> From your choices I'd pick Froch. He's had a long history of success at the top level, and if he looks vulnerable because of his fight with Groves, then what does that make Sergio Martinez, who has been looking somewhat vulnerable and underwhelming for years and piling on injuries as well? (I actually don't think there's anyone else in the top 10 as ripe for an upset as Sergio, which is too bad because he's a good fighter and I like the guy.)
> 
> Except for guys who are only fringe top 10, I think it usually takes more than 1 off performance to bump them out of the list, especially if they've proven their track record beforehand. I've never thought that Froch was a tremendously special or gifted fighter, but the dude always finds a way to win, and fights almost nothing but world class competition. Vulnerability would justify him being in danger of getting knocked off the list, (especially with guys like Mikey Garcia trying to break into it) but it's not enough to make me drop him quite yet. Another bad performance would do it.
> 
> From choices outside the one you named, Mikey Garcia is the standout to me. There are things I don't like about how he fights, including his lack of activity and letting guys get off the hook when they're hurt, but he's certainly got the skills, has put together a lot of good wins, (nothing spectacular, but a lot of good wins) and he's certainly been impressive so far. I think he's right on the cusp, and another good win should certainly put him over for those who don't think he's there already.


I've got my top 16 sorted now man. In response to your questioning of Martinez though, he looked spectacular against Chavez for 11 rounds and I feel his fight with Murray was closer than most say although I don't think he won. It was in his home town though, what would be expected. Martinez will beat Cotto and it will justify his ranking imo.


----------



## Collie (Aug 16, 2013)

Chacal said:


> 4 places left in the top 20
> 
> Uchiyama, Lara, Golovkin, Ioka and Yamanaka are all in the running for this. I do not know enough about Ioka and Yamanaka yet. Uchiyama is a destroyer but apparently looked bad in his last fight, Lara is inconsistent but has some very good wins on his resume and GGG looks to be phenomenal but lacks names on his resume.
> 
> Anybody else in the running for the last 4 places? Suggestions welcome.


Mares? Was top 10 until admittedly KO'd, but not a bad fighter overnight.

GGG certainly should be there in the top 20.

Also, probably not above the guys you mentioned but Marco Huck probably deserves to be in the top 25.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> 4 places left in the top 20
> 
> Uchiyama, Lara, Golovkin, Ioka and Yamanaka are all in the running for this. I do not know enough about Ioka and Yamanaka yet. Uchiyama is a destroyer but apparently looked bad in his last fight, Lara is inconsistent but has some very good wins on his resume and GGG looks to be phenomenal but lacks names on his resume.
> 
> Anybody else in the running for the last 4 places? Suggestions welcome.


Ioka has wins over Sithsamerchai (now 52-1), Yaegashi (now lineal flyweight champ and arguably neck-and-neck with Estrada for the no.1 spot) and was unified champ at straw (doesn't mean a huge amount admittedly) and has won the vacant WBA strap at light fly and made a few defences (no great shakes in terms of opposition)

He looks f'n class, so I'd have him above GGG based on resume/achievements.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Collie said:


> Mares? Was top 10 until admittedly KO'd, but not a bad fighter overnight.
> 
> GGG certainly should be there in the top 20.
> 
> Also, probably not above the guys you mentioned but Marco Huck probably deserves to be in the top 25.


Even though Gonzalez lost to Ponce and was dropped by a journeyman before beating Abner if Mares is still in with a shout than Gonzalez should be ahead of him for beating Hasegawa and smashing Mares within a round.

That's why I haven't brought either of those up, gets a bit murky.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Collie said:


> Mares? Was top 10 until admittedly KO'd, but not a bad fighter overnight.
> 
> GGG certainly should be there in the top 20.
> 
> Also, probably not above the guys you mentioned but Marco Huck probably deserves to be in the top 25.


Good mentions, all for consideration. Mares is a real tricky one. It's hard to say someone who got blown out in a round is one of the best in the world.



Flea Man said:


> Ioka has wins over Sithsamerchai (now 52-1), Yaegashi (now lineal flyweight champ and arguably neck-and-neck with Estrada for the no.1 spot) and was unified champ at straw (doesn't mean a huge amount admittedly) and has won the vacant WBA strap at light fly and made a few defences (no great shakes in terms of opposition)
> 
> He looks f'n class, so I'd have him above GGG based on resume/achievements.


who do you rate higher, Ioka or Yamanaka?


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lara > Golovkin > Uchiyama

Ioka > Golovkin

Yamanaka is currently not very well known by me

Kovalev will be in the 20-25 spot as he lacks a signature win but has a good body of work from last year

N.B

I WILL be looking into Ioka and Yamanaka, @Flea Man's help is greatly appreciated but it's be a bit weak of me to just take what he says at face value and call this my p4p list :good


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

This is just a note for me:

Lara > Ioka* > Yamanaka* > Uchiyama* > Golovkin* > Kovalev >... Huck

* = interchangable


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Lara > Golovkin > Uchiyama
> 
> Ioka > Golovkin
> 
> ...


Yamanaka's opposition has been slightly more impressive as of late but Ioka likely has the better opposition overall.
@Lester1583 @dkos @Lilo What are your thoughts? Ioka or Yamanaka?


----------



## MamaSaidKnockYouOut (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Your posts are oh, so much better.


I don't go around calling people 'fucking spastics' because I disagree with their opinion. If you don't understand how childish that is then I can't help you


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Let's keep it civil :good


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MamaSaidKnockYouOut said:


> I don't go around calling people 'fucking spastics' because I disagree with their opinion. If you don't understand how childish that is then I can't help you


You made sweeping statements like 'Lara deserves to be top 10 in the eyes of any unbiased fan'. So get fucked.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> What are your thoughts? Ioka or Yamanaka?


They are pretty much on the same level.

So it boils down to personal preference really.

Personally, I don't like the fact that Ioka refused to fight Chocolotito.

And he didn't look convincingly enough against his best opponent, Yaegashi - some people even scored this fight for Akira.

Seppuku, on the other, since he won the title always beat his opposition decisively.

And his epic victory over Iwasa definitely deserves another mention.:ibutt

In addition, Yamanaka has been named the 2013 fighter of the year in Japan.:yep


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> They are pretty much on the same level.
> 
> So it boils down to personal preference really.
> 
> ...


There you have it. Can't argue with any of that, including the closeness of Ioka's fight with Yaegashi.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) Floyd Mayweather Jr - widely accepted
2) Andre Ward - widely accepted
3) Timothy Bradley - had a great 2013, beat ATG Juan Manuel Marquez in a close, clear fight 
4) Guillermo Rigondeaux - Had a great 2013, dominated p4p3 Donaire and veteran Agbeko
5) Juan Manuel Marquez - still up here for his great career, his loss to bradley not enough to drop him further
6) Sergio Martinez - looked poor against Murray, benefit of the doubt for now, cotto fight answers questions
7) Manny Pacquiao - back to winning ways with a dominant performance against Rios
8) Wladamir Klitschko - would be higher but his non stop clinching makes me reluctant 
9) Danny Garcia - Keeps winning against the odds, undeniably the best at 140
10) Roman Gonzalez - Win over estrada is awesome, looks to be the goods
11) Adonis Stevenson - coming off a great 2013, on great form
12) Nonito Donaire - looked shit in his last fight but pulled out the win, his fate is in the balance in his next fight
13) Carl Froch - same as donaire
14) Bernard Hopkins - body of work at LHW is great
15) Mikey Garcia - looks to be the goods but lacks a defining victory
16) Juan Estrada - win over viloria is awesome
17) Erislandy Lara - wins over trout, angulo and williams are very good but he's looked poor against less than stellar opposition in the past 
18) Shinsuke Yamanaka * - good resume need to look into more
19) Kazuto Ioka * - good resume need to look into more
20) Takashi Uchiyama - been destroying fools in japan but hasn't faced the very best in his division and looked vulnerable in his last fight
21) Gennady Golovkin - been destroying everyone but hasn't faced a good fighter yet
22) Sergiy Kovalev - same situation as GGG
23)
24)
25)


3 spaces left. Matthysse and Huck should be in there. Who else...


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> They are pretty much on the same level.
> 
> So it boils down to personal preference really.
> 
> ...


:good thanks very much


----------



## Crean (May 19, 2013)

Id have Alvarez in top 25 somewhere .

Solid list though


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Crean said:


> Id have Alvarez in top 25 somewhere .
> 
> Solid list though


I'm thinking

Alvarez
Matthysse
Huck

to finish the list off


----------



## Crean (May 19, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I'm thinking
> 
> Alvarez
> Matthysse
> ...


Looks good.

Although I don't personally like Huck, but that's probably me just being harsh.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> 1) Floyd Mayweather Jr - widely accepted
> 2) Andre Ward - widely accepted
> 3) Timothy Bradley - had a great 2013, beat ATG Juan Manuel Marquez in a close, clear fight
> 4) Guillermo Rigondeaux - Had a great 2013, dominated p4p3 Donaire and veteran Agbeko
> ...


Campillo is better than anyone GGG has faced.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Gamboa hasn't been that active lately and hasn't looked amazing but are we going to dismiss his whole body of work?


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> I'm thinking
> Alvarez
> Matthysse
> Huck
> to finish the list off


Jhonny at least brutally destroyed Mares which is more impressive than anything Alvarez ever done.

Provo put Bradley in an insane asylum, stopped Avocado and made Marquez cry.

Porter beat Devon who was a top 15/top20 fighter.

Gamboa almost successfully guzman'd his own career but he is still deserves a mention.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

For now I'm thinking:

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward
3) T. Bradley
4) G. Rigondeaux
5) J. M. Marquez
6) S. Martinez
7) M. Pacquiao
8) W. Klitschko
9) D. Garcia
10) R. Gonzalez
11) A. Stevenson
12) N. Donaire
13) C. Froch
14) B. Hopkins
15) M. Garcia
16) J. Estrada
17) E. Lara
18) S. Yamanaka
19) K. Ioka
20) T. Uchiyama
21) G. Golovkin
22) S. Kovalev
23) M. Maidana
24) M. Huck
25) S. Alvarez


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

When we get this far down in the list it's splitting hairs really.


----------



## Hatesrats (Jun 6, 2013)

I find it hard to have *Pac* so high up in the list.
(Especially with Wlad below him)

& he has gone 1w-2L's in last 3.

Maybe top 10?? (@10)


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Jhonny at least brutally destroyed Mares which is more impressive than anything Alvarez ever done.
> 
> Provo put Bardley in an insane asylum, stopped Avocado and made Marquez cry.
> 
> Gamboa almost successfully guzman'd his own career but he is till deserves a mention.


Agree with all of this.

What a shame about Gamboa. Perfectly suited to featherweight and got on TRT instead :-(

Still more accomplished than those 3. Salido, Ponce are both good wins considering how much hype Mikey & Abner got for beating them.

Farenas was a tough fight but Gamboa actually beat him. Gamboa must be ahead of Uchiyama, even though Yuriorkis' 135lb debut was a dull safety first fight.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hatesrats said:


> I find it hard to have *Pac* so high up in the list.
> (Especially with Wlad below him)
> 
> & he has gone 1w-2L's in last 3.
> ...


One of his losses is a fight most consider a robbery against a guy in the top 5 who just beat the guy who sparked Pacquiao.

He's still well in the mix.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Jhonny at least brutally destroyed Mares which is more impressive than anything Alvarez ever done.
> 
> Provo put Bradley in an insane asylum, stopped Avocado and made Marquez cry.
> 
> ...


I'm staying the fuck away from gonzalez and mares. Gonzalez lost to Ponce De Leon. The whole Mares fight fucked everything up really. Provodnikov lost to Bradley so the only win really putting him there would be his win over Alvarado, he doesn't have the body of work like Huck or Maidana and alvarez's win over trout > Provo's win over Alvarado.

Porter is a good shout but again only has one win, against alexander, who I never really rated anyway.

Gamboa has done nothing as of late. If he gets a fight with Mikey and wins then he's going to be propelled very highly in the list.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

I really, really like Gamboa. I just find it hard to rate him based off his last 2 fights.


----------



## dkos (Jun 2, 2012)

I'd have Yaegashi above Ioka, TBH.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> I'm staying the fuck away from gonzalez and mares. Gonzalez lost to Ponce De Leon. The whole Mares fight fucked everything up really. Provodnikov lost to Bradley so the only win really putting him there would be his win over Alvarado, he doesn't have the body of work like Huck or Maidana and alvarez's win over trout > Provo's win over Alvarado.
> 
> Porter is a good shout but again only has one win, against alexander, who I never really rated anyway.
> 
> Gamboa has done nothing as of late. If he gets a fight with Mikey and wins then he's going to be propelled very highly in the list.


Faranes wasn't that bad.

On your whole 'only one win of note' thing Canelo basically only has one serious win (Trout, has lost since) and didn't look like he belonged in the ring with Floyd to make you think he's a fringe P4P talent even.

Matthysse arguably has Devon, Zab and Peterson to put him above Maidana, Canelo and Poter (who I'm not considering at all) but even then, probably not as accomplished as Gamboa.

Even though a few years ago he beat Salido without much hassle, and convincingly. Garcia won easily but he cried uncle with an injury. Mares was the first to stop Ponce at 126, good achievement, but his most recent feat is getting blitzed in a round by a past prime fighter.

I would honestly put Gamboa ahead of Alvarez. Means little but his last opponent was undefeated and Gamboa didn't seem all that troubled IIRC.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dkos said:


> I'd have Yaegashi above Ioka, TBH.


You would? Do you think Yaegashi won clearly enough that Ioka shouldn't be seen as having beaten him? The chap Akira beat for the lineal title wasn't all that IMO, and although he showed another facet to his game against Sosa, Sosa was beaten by a shot Wonjongkam so he isn't the most reliable performer himself.

Please elaborate, will be intrigued to see your thoughts :thumbsup:


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

dkos said:


> I'd have Yaegashi above Ioka, TBH.


I don't know enough about these guys. It's a serious hole in my knowledge I need to correct.


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## dkos (Jun 2, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> You would? Do you think Yaegashi won clearly enough that Ioka shouldn't be seen as having beaten him? The chap Akira beat for the lineal title wasn't all that IMO, and although he showed another facet to his game against Sosa, Sosa was beaten by a shot Wonjongkam so he isn't the most reliable performer himself.
> 
> Please elaborate, will be intrigued to see your thoughts :thumbsup:


Ioka-Yaegashi was obviously very close; I had Ioka winning _just_, but there was so little in it that both get similar credit for the fight from me.

Since that fight, Yaegashi's body of work is the more impressive while moving up to flyweight (the difference down there is minimal of course, but it has to be taken into account in a 'P4P' sense). I agree the guy Yaegashi beat for the lineal title (name's slipping me) wasn't the best opponent, but he and Sosa were both top 10 guys at the time (more like top 5 really) in a stacked division, and Akira did a comprehensive job on both of them. Ioka has since been beating B-level guys, none of which at the same level as either of the aforementioned Yaegashi opponents, IMO.

It's all very close, but I would have my top Japanese fighters list as:

1. Uchiyama
2. Yamanaka
3. Yaegashi
4. Ioka
5. Miura (possibly)


----------



## Collie (Aug 16, 2013)

Chacal said:


> When we get this far down in the list it's splitting hairs really.


Yep.

Out of interest, here's my top 30 list I did a while ago.

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?26838-Current-top-30-P4P

Broner wouldn't be there obviously and I recognise that GGG is probably too high on mine and that Ioka should be there somewhere, but otherwise our lists are pretty similar and as you said, that far down the list cases can be made either way for most fighters.


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## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

Chacal said:


> This is just a note for me:
> 
> Lara > Ioka* > Yamanaka* > Uchiyama* > Golovkin* > Kovalev >... *Huck*
> 
> * = interchangable


Nice to see Huck getting a mention, long term titlist with some good wins & an impressive cameo at heavyweight.

Anselmo Moreno deserves a mention as well imo.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

DrMo said:


> Anselmo Moreno deserves a mention as well imo.


Smoke and mirrors.


----------



## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Smoke and mirrors.


Most of my favourite activites involve smoke & mirrors :conf


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## dkos (Jun 2, 2012)

I agree that Jhonny should be considered for a top 20 spot. Ponce fight aside, he has been in good form for the past 4 years and flattened a Mares that was seen as a borderline top 10 P4P guy at the time.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Porter beat Devon who was a top 15/top20 fighter.
> 
> *Devon...a top 15/top20 fighter*


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dkos said:


> I agree that Jhonny should be considered for a top 20 spot. Ponce fight aside, he has been in good form for the past 4 years and flattened a Mares that was seen as a borderline top 10 P4P guy at the time.


I thought that 'til I got shown his fight two before Mares: dropped badly and taken the duration by a nobody.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Collie said:


> Yep.
> 
> Out of interest, here's my top 30 list I did a while ago.
> 
> ...


Not a bad list but JMM > Pac, M garcia and GGG too high, I dunno if Mares can be that high after being blown out in a round, Gradovich doesn't belong. Other than that it's decent though. All about preference though so no criticism.


----------



## VG_Addict (Mar 13, 2013)

dkos said:


> Ioka-Yaegashi was obviously very close; I had Ioka winning _just_, but there was so little in it that both get similar credit for the fight from me.
> 
> Since that fight, Yaegashi's body of work is the more impressive while moving up to flyweight (the difference down there is minimal of course, but it has to be taken into account in a 'P4P' sense). I agree the guy Yaegashi beat for the lineal title (name's slipping me) wasn't the best opponent, but he and Sosa were both top 10 guys at the time (more like top 5 really) in a stacked division, and Akira did a comprehensive job on both of them. Ioka has since been beating B-level guys, none of which at the same level as either of the aforementioned Yaegashi opponents, IMO.
> 
> ...


Supposedly, Gonzalez is fighting Yaegashi in August. If Gonzalez wins, where does he rank P4P?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Unreal how one loss wipes Mares right off the map. Solid list though.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Unreal how one loss wipes Mares right off the map. Solid list though.


Cheers, when it's a KO1 it kinda has to though. If he wins a rematch he enters very high, 10-15 sort of area


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Unreal how one loss wipes Mares right off the map. Solid list though.


Could very well work himself into the list, say if he avenged the loss


----------



## dkos (Jun 2, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I thought that 'til I got shown his fight two before Mares: dropped badly and taken the duration by a nobody.


I haven't seen those TBF, so I'll take your word for it :good



VG_Addict said:


> Supposedly, Gonzalez is fighting Yaegashi in August. If Gonzalez wins, where does he rank P4P?


Although you obviously have to take into account the manner of victory, I believe it would solidify him in the P4P top 10.


----------



## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I feel he lacks a stand out win. He's building up an okay resume of decent names like Salido, Lopez, Martinez, Burgos but none of them are really that impressive. If he beats someone like Gamboa in impressive fashion, he's got it.


So in your opinion if he beats a guy who has not done anything significant over the past 2 years(gamboa) he will finally be elite? Salido was the man at 126 when Mikey beat him. Martinez was a champion and Burgos was the number one contender. Gamboa is technically a step down.

Since the Mikey fight wont be made in this quarter I would like Gamboa to prove his worth against a Martinez or Burgos.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> What a shame about Gamboa.


Yup, Gamboa's at the mercy of Garcia family right now - nobody needs him, nobody wants him and he's obviously been lacking motivation in the last fights.

Garcia can easily avoid him and continue making money on TR cards.

Would be a good fight, of course.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> So in your opinion if he beats a guy who has not done anything significant over the past 2 years(gamboa) he will finally be elite? Salido was the man at 126 when Mikey beat him. Martinez was a champion and Burgos was the number one contender. Gamboa is technically a step down.
> 
> Since the Mikey fight wont be made in this quarter I would like Gamboa to prove his worth against a Martinez or Burgos.


:lol:


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> So in your opinion if he beats a guy who has not done anything significant over the past 2 years(gamboa) he will finally be elite? Salido was the man at 126 when Mikey beat him. Martinez was a champion and Burgos was the number one contender. Gamboa is technically a step down.
> 
> Since the Mikey fight wont be made in this quarter I would like Gamboa to prove his worth against a Martinez or Burgos.


Gamboa's body of work is much better, he hasn't done much as of late but he still easily beat Salido, Mikey's best win years prior. Gamboa > Salido, Martinez and Burgos. If you disagree you're wrong.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Gamboa's body of work is much better, he hasn't done much as of late but he still easily beat Salido, Mikey's best win years prior. Gamboa > Salido, Martinez and Burgos. If you disagree you're wrong.


Agree 100% with every word.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm actually going to keep building on this list.

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward
3) T. Bradley
4) G. Rigondeaux
5) J. M. Marquez
6) S. Martinez
7) M. Pacquiao
8) W. Klitschko
9) D. Garcia
10) R. Gonzalez
11) A. Stevenson
12) N. Donaire
13) C. Froch
14) B. Hopkins
15) M. Garcia
16) J. Estrada
17) E. Lara
18) S. Yamanaka
19) K. Ioka
20) T. Uchiyama
21) S. Kovalev
22) G. Golovkin
23) M. Maidana
24) M. Huck
25) Y. Gamboa (change of heart about canelo)


L. Matthysse
S. Alvarez
R. Provodnikov
A. Yaegashi
A. Mares
J. Gonzalez
all to follow, just not fully sure what order yet.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Yaegashi > Matthysse > Provodnikov > Alvarez > Jhonny Gonzalez > Mares (fuck gonzalez and mares for fucking everything about)

thoughts? @Flea Man and others


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Yaegashi > Matthysse > Provodnikov > Alvarez > Jhonny Gonzalez > Mares (fuck gonzalez and mares for fucking everything about)
> 
> thoughts? @Flea Man and others


Yeah, I'm happy with that. I'd have Provo above Matthysse though. Lamont wasn't all that, Alvarado was a more relevant win (arguably) and before that Provo gave Hell to a man in your top 5.

EDIT: Gonzalez>Canelo. Ponce and a few dodgy fights aside, Hasegawa and Mares>Trout win.


----------



## Collie (Aug 16, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Not a bad list but JMM > Pac, M garcia and GGG too high, I dunno if Mares can be that high after being blown out in a round, Gradovich doesn't belong. Other than that it's decent though. All about preference though so no criticism.


Yeah, agree with you on most points. I'm going to update mine actually.

1. Mayweather
2. Ward
3. Rigo
4. Bradley
5. Wlad
6. Pacquaio
7. JMM
8. D. Garcia
9. Martinez
10. Roman Gonzalez
11. Donaire
12. M Garcia
13. Froch
14. Stevenson
15. GGG
16. Estrada
17. Kovalev
18. Yamanaka
19. Uchiyama
20. Lara
21. Hopkins
22. Jhonny Gonzalez
23. Huck
24. Ioka
25. Mares
26. Provodnikov
27. Canelo
28. Matthysse
29. YP Hernandez
30. Gamboa

I find JMM/Bradley/Pacquaio hard to place in relation to each other, but I'm happy with Bradley>Pacquaio>JMM at the moment. Gamboa is hard to place too. Agree that Mares and Gonzalez line is difficult also.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, I'm happy with that. I'd have Provo above Matthysse though. Lamont wasn't all that, Alvarado was a more relevant win (arguably) and before that Provo gave Hell to a man in your top 5.
> 
> EDIT: Gonzalez>Canelo. Ponce and a few dodgy fights aside, Hasegawa and Mares>Trout win.


Two very good points. Also thinking Mares might still be > Alvarez just now. It's difficult.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward
3) T. Bradley
4) G. Rigondeaux
5) J. M. Marquez
6) S. Martinez
7) M. Pacquiao
8) W. Klitschko
9) D. Garcia
10) R. Gonzalez
11) A. Stevenson
12) N. Donaire
13) C. Froch
14) B. Hopkins
15) M. Garcia
16) J. Estrada
17) E. Lara
18) S. Yamanaka
19) K. Ioka
20) T. Uchiyama
21) S. Kovalev
22) G. Golovkin
23) M. Maidana
24) M. Huck
25) Y. Gamboa 
26) A. Yaegashi
27) R. Provodnikov
28) L. Matthysse
29) J. Gonzalez
30) Either Canelo or Mares


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Shit I still need to weigh up Froch or Donaire for you @Chacal but solid list mate :good. Mates over Canelo for me all day

I'd swap Lucas and Ruslan as well, I love Ruslan but Peterson, Alexander and Judah put Lucas ahead for me


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mares definitely over Alvarez. Mares has a really strong resume, far better than Canelos.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Shit I still need to weigh up Froch or Donaire for you @Chacal but solid list mate :good. Mates over Canelo for me all day
> 
> I'd swap Lucas and Ruslan as well, I love Ruslan but Peterson, Alexander and Judah put Lucas ahead for me


Cheers mate. I think there's an argument between Matthysse and Provodnikov. Matthysse technically didn't get the W against Alexander (robbery) or Judah (close fight) so I'm not counting the Judah win, so his wins are over Peterson and Alexander. Both of whom I've never really rated. Alvarado has some decent wins and was on some good momentum after beating Rios, and Provodnikov fucking tore through him. Not to mention he took Bradley to hell and back. I think it's arguable but for me, Provodnikov takes it.


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Cheers mate. I think there's an argument between Matthysse and Provodnikov. Matthysse technically didn't get the W against Alexander (robbery) or Judah (close fight) so I'm not counting the Judah win, so his wins are over Peterson and Alexander. Both of whom I've never really rated. Alvarado has some decent wins and was on some good momentum after beating Rios, and Provodnikov fucking tore through him. Not to mention he took Bradley to hell and back. I think it's arguable but for me, Provodnikov takes it.


Fair enough, I would have had Peterson> Alvarado though and the win was even more brutal.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Mares definitely over Alvarez. Mares has a really strong resume, far better than Canelos.


No doubt, I had Mares p4p 8 till he ran into Gonzalez. It's just that KO1 loss really fucks things over. Mares' resume is the tits though, one of my favourite fighters. Would love to see him vs Rigondeaux if he gets back to winning ways. I don't really rate Canelo that highly, I expect Angulo to spark him out. I'm leaning more towards Mares at the current moment but i'll need to think a little more.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Fair enough, I would have had Peterson> Alvarado though and the win was even more brutal.


Really? For his controversial win over Khan, year > lay off and win over a past it kendall holt who was average at best and lost 3 of his last 6? Not for me :conf Alvarado had alright guys like Prescott, Herrera and a big win over Rios.


----------



## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Hernandez is too low in my opinion.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Berliner said:


> Hernandez is too low in my opinion.


Hernandez isn't in my list. Where would you argue him into mine? Give reasoning and it'll be considered :good


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Hernandez is a world class fighter for many years now. Coming from the cuban School he is techincally very strong. He has power in both Hands and his win over Cunningham is much better than anything Golovkin, Kovalev or Provodnikov have done. Hernandez has flaws (mainly his Stamina, defence) But I think that he is very underrated. And after a Long lay off he came back to knock out Alekseev who himself was a good fighter (former world Amateur Champion, and good Puncher).

I know that people dont rate the cruiserweights but Hernandez has to be in a top 30 p4p list imo.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Berliner said:


> Hernandez is a world class fighter for many years now. Coming from the cuban School he is techincally very strong. He has power in both Hands and his win over Cunningham is much better than anything Golovkin, Kovalev or Provodnikov have done. Hernandez has flaws (mainly his Stamina, defence) But I think that he is very underrated. And after a Long lay off he came back to knock out Alekseev who himself was a good fighter (former world Amateur Champion, and good Puncher).
> 
> I know that people dont rate the cruiserweights but Hernandez has to be in a top 30 p4p list imo.


Do you rate him above Huck p4p?


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Do you rate him above Huck p4p?


From a technical view yes clearly. But Hucks style would be very difficult to deal with for Hernandez. But both have the same Trainer so I dont think the fight will ever happen.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Berliner said:


> From a technical view yes clearly. But Hucks style would be very difficult to deal with for Hernandez. But both have the same Trainer so I dont think the fight will ever happen.


How about in terms of resume and achievements?


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Chacal said:


> How about in terms of resume and achievements?


hernanez ranks higher but not by much...


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Berliner said:


> hernanez ranks higher but not by much...


*Huck*
Victor Emilio Ramirez
Ola Afolabi x 3
Denis Lebedev
Alexander Povetkin at HW (fuck the judges and the ref)
First Arslan x2

*Yoan Pablo Hernandez*
Steve Herelius
Cunningham x2
Alexander Alekseev

Huck takes it for me I'm afraid. Let's take a look at where I could have him in my list with that in mind.

24) M. Huck
25) Y. Gamboa 
26) A. Yaegashi
27) R. Provodnikov
28) L. Matthysse
29) J. Gonzalez
30) Either Canelo or Mares

Gamboa and Yaegashi have the better resumes imo. Provodnikov is an exception to the whole resume thing as he nearly (in the eyes of many) beat bradley my p4p3 so I don't think he can really be criticised for his resume as he is clearly a fantastic fighter.

How about in Matthysse's place?

*Yoan Pablo Hernandez*
Steve Herelius
Cunningham x2
Alexander Alekseev

*Lucas Matthysse*
Arguably Judah
Alexander (fuck the judges)
Humberto Soto
Olisegun Ajose
Lamont Peterson

:think

I think that Matthysse wins this one too if I'm being honest.

I could put him in place of Gonzalez maybe :think

If other people could chime in on this it'd be appreciated.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

*Yoan Pablo Hernandez*
Steve Herelius
Cunningham x2
Alexander Alekseev

*Jhonny Gonzalez*
Fernando Montiel
Hozumi Hasegawa
Elio Rojas
Abner Mares (top 10 p4p)

:conf I can't really justify it. Maybe he takes the 30 spot since Mares got KO1'd and Alvarez isn't all that.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

@DrMo you know a lot about cruisers yeah? Can you give me a bit of info about Yoan Pablo Hernandez and where you'd place him in my list?


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## Collie (Aug 16, 2013)

I have Hernandez at #29 in my list, he is the Ring champion at the weight (if that counts for much) but I have no problem if people have him outside the top 30. He was awfully lucky vs Troy Ross, he would have lost via TKO if there had been a fair ref imo and he was aided on the cards too. He had a decent win last time out though and is pretty skilled.

Just a thought, what about Moreno? He was top 10 p4p by some before the loss to Mares, seemed to disappear after that. He probably doesn't make it to the top 30 but can't be too far outside it?


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Collie said:


> I have Hernandez at #29 in my list, he is the Ring champion at the weight (if that counts for much) but I have no problem if people have him outside the top 30. He was awfully lucky vs Troy Ross, he would have lost via TKO if there had been a fair ref imo and he was aided on the cards too. He had a decent win last time out though and is pretty skilled.
> 
> Just a thought, what about Moreno? He was top 10 p4p by some before the loss to Mares, seemed to disappear after that. He probably doesn't make it to the top 30 but can't be too far outside it?


He's up there for sure but I don't think I can put him in the top 30 really. He's got to be below Mares for sure.


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## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Gamboa's body of work is much better, he hasn't done much as of late but he still easily beat Salido, Mikey's best win years prior. Gamboa > Salido, Martinez and Burgos. If you disagree you're wrong.


Gamboas resume aint really all that. Salido is also Gamboas best win and in a lot of peoples card he lost. Mine included. He won more rounds but i believe there was a 2 point deduction and a kd which edged it to Salido. I would have to watch it again but i know we had a thread on ESB where we scored the fight.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> Gamboas resume aint really all that. Salido is also Gamboas best win and in a lot of peoples card he lost. Mine included. He won more rounds but i believe there was a 2 point deduction and a kd which edged it to Salido. I would have to watch it again but i know we had a thread on ESB where we scored the fight.


No chance in hell Salido won that fight. Gamboa won most rounds and dropped salido twice. Even with the 2 points deducted it was a Gamboa win.


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## VG_Addict (Mar 13, 2013)

dkos said:


> Although you obviously have to take into account the manner of victory, I believe it would solidify him in the P4P top 10.


If he beats him, will he take Rigondeaux's spot? Remember, Gonzalez also has wins over Hirales and Estrada.


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## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

Chacal said:


> No chance in hell Salido won that fight. Gamboa won most rounds and dropped salido twice. Even with the 2 points deducted it was a Gamboa win.


Go back and rewatch it then post your rbr here. I would love to see it. I remember i went with the flow too the first time since I originally watched that fight while on vacation with friends so i didnt pay attention and believed the hbo crew. IB from ESB brought up how he scored it for Salido so I went back to watch it and acyuslly scored it. For those who dont know who IB is. He did our RBR and was very reliable when it came to scoring fights.

I would be very interested in seeing your cards so you can clearly see that was not the easy win boxrec told most of you guys.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> Go back and rewatch it then post your rbr here. I would love to see it. I remember i went with the flow too the first time since I originally watched that fight while on vacation with friends so i didnt pay attention and believed the hbo crew. IB from ESB brought up how he scored it for Salido so I went back to watch it and acyuslly scored it. For those who dont know who IB is. He did our RBR and was very reliable when it came to scoring fights.
> 
> I would be very interested in seeing your cards so you can clearly see that was not the easy win boxrec told most of you guys.


If you really think I'm basing my thought off boxrec you can eat a dick, I've not said anything bad to you, don't be so disrespectful.

I will watch it right now and post my rbr.


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## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

Chacal said:


> If you really think I'm basing my thought off boxrec you can eat a dick, I've not said anything bad to you, don't be so disrespectful.
> 
> I will watch it right now and post my rbr.


Sorry but you did say Gamboa EASILY beat Salido which I am letting you know was absolutely not the case. Hell even if you score it for Gamboa thats fine. I am ok with either winning as it was a close fight but in no way was that easy work for either.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> Gamboas resume aint really all that. Salido is also Gamboas best win and in a lot of peoples card he lost. Mine included. He won more rounds but i believe there was a 2 point deduction and a kd which edged it to Salido. I would have to watch it again but i know we had a thread on ESB where we scored the fight.


What? Salido didn't win that fight on any sane card :rofl


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> Sorry but you did say Gamboa EASILY beat Salido which I am letting you know was absolutely not the case. Hell even if you score it for Gamboa thats fine. I am ok with either winning as it was a close fight but in no way was that easy work for either.


Gamboa was in first gear for most of that fight. There is no chance Salido was in with a shot of winning the decision. What fight were you watching???


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## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> What? Salido didn't win that fight on any sane card :rofl


Great argument. Wheres your card?


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## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

Chacal said:


> @DrMo you know a lot about cruisers yeah? Can you give me a bit of info about Yoan Pablo Hernandez and where you'd place him in my list?


I'd have him a few spots below Huck who has greater depth to his CV & would knock him out if/when they ever fight.

YPH deserves his #1 ranking at cruiser but Huck would spark him plus Huck performed well at HW where I think YPH would probably get flattened by any half decent heavy

Hernandez is a highly entertaing blend of talent & flaws, he's massive at the weight & has very quick hands, respectable power plus that beautiful Cuban technique & balance. However, he gasses horribly after 3-4 rounds, is chinny & reckless.

Some fighters have a stony expression during a fight & reveal nothing but YPH is the total opposite. Every fight seems to be a constant swing between the sublime & ridiculous, one moment YPH is on top of the world, the next he seems on the verge of being stopped only to bounce back with something exceptional.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> Great argument. Wheres your card?


Honestly never seemed a fight worth scoring.


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## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Honestly never seemed a fight worth scoring.


Well then... Enough said. Have you ever considered being a lawyer?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> Well then... Enough said. Have you ever considered being a lawyer?


You're a tosser.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

r1: 10-9 Gamboa
r2: 10-9 gamboa
r3: 10-9 gamboa
r4: 10-9 gamboa
r5: 9-10 Salido
r6: 10-9 gamboa
r7: 10-9 gamboa
r8: 8-10 Salido
r9: 10-9 gamboa
r10: 10-9 gamboa
r11: 10-9 gamboa
r12: 8-7 gamboa

115-108 gamboa.

There's a case to be made that salido knocking down gamboa was bullshit in which case gamboa really won the rest of that round so it'd be 10-9 gamboa. Really I think it'd be fair to do it as 10-9 salido but I gave him the benefit of the doubt so it's 10-8 salido. 

Rounds 6 and 9 could have gone to salido too and if you're a dickhead you could make the last round 8-8 in which case it'd be 113-111 gamboa.

So basically yes, gamboa won that fight clearly. If you take away the bullshit knockdown but still give the round to salido (even though he didn't deserve it) and he didn't fuck up by throwing one punch that cost him 2 points (which was really that shitty excuse of a ref joe cortez's fault) then the fight was 118-108 to gamboa.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Now, post your scorecard that had Salido winning.


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## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Now, post your scorecard that had Salido winning.


There just isnt any getting through to you. My card is somewhere on ESB but I cant be bothered to look for it on my phone. Besides its pointless if you scored it that way. You also had Lara clearly beating Molina if I remember right. Didnt you have that something like 7-3 rounds? You should try being less biased. It helps you enjoy the sport more.


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## dkos (Jun 2, 2012)

VG_Addict said:


> If he beats him, will he take Rigondeaux's spot? Remember, Gonzalez also has wins over Hirales and Estrada.


And he battered Niida (#1 minimum at the time) and decisioned Takayama (current #1 minimum) years ago, too.

But no, he wouldn't rise that high for me. Bottom end of the top 10 or on the fringes of it at a minimum.


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## dkos (Jun 2, 2012)

Anyone who had the Gamboa fight to Salido is deluding themselves.


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## Kurushi (Jun 11, 2013)

@Chacal

Would you be willing to include your criteria in your first post? So that we can work out what value you're placing on what criterion?


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Quality of wins to level of skill shown, if someone is clearly skillful but hasn't got great wins they are lower and losses damage fighters placings.

Sent from my RM-914_eu_euro1_327 using Tapatalk


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dkos said:


> Anyone who had the Gamboa fight to Salido is deluding themselves.


:deal


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> Well then... Enough said. Have you ever considered being a lawyer?


Are you Kedbuka?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

DrMo said:


> I'd have him a few spots below Huck who has greater depth to his CV & would knock him out if/when they ever fight.


I think there's no one in the cruiserweight division at the moment who deserves to be called the best.

Certainly not in a H2H-sense.

Huck arguably lost to Aslan and Lebedev, Hernandez looked horrible against Ross, Lebedev got brutalized by an ancient G.Jones, G.Jones is always inactive, Wlodarczyk has some okay victories but nobody rates him highly, the African Trio haven't done enough.

Plenty of evenly-matched fighters.

And that's not exactly a bad thing.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> I think there's no one in the cruiserweight division at the moment who deserves to be called the best.
> 
> Certainly not in a H2H-sense.
> 
> ...


Ola deserved at least one of the Huck decisions.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

saul_ir34 said:


> There just isnt any getting through to you. My card is somewhere on ESB but I cant be bothered to look for it on my phone. Besides its pointless if you scored it that way. You also had Lara clearly beating Molina if I remember right. Didnt you have that something like 7-3 rounds? You should try being less biased. It helps you enjoy the sport more.


you're a joke


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Updated list in OP, once again criticism, comments and suggestions welcome if you can back it up.


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## BuriK (Nov 16, 2013)

if ggg beats chavez jr he should be top 10 i reckon, actually scratch that if canelo beats lara he should defo be top 10


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

BuriK said:


> if ggg beats chavez jr he should be top 10 i reckon, actually scratch that if canelo beats lara he should defo be top 10


Winner of Canelo - Lara gets a top 10 spot, winner of GGG - Chavez proves they're legit and enters top 15 I was thinking.


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## BuriK (Nov 16, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Winner of Canelo - Lara gets a top 10 spot, winner of GGG - Chavez proves they're legit and enters top 15 I was thinking.


yeh i agree with that, i forgot about canelo fighting lara so had to edit my post!!! not sure about anyone else entering top ten over canelo or lara tbf


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

stop sleeping on Mikey


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> stop sleeping on Mikey


He hasn't done anything since I first made this list, why would I move him up?


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) F. Mayweather
2) G. Rigondeaux
3) M. Pacquiao 
4) R. Gonzalez
5) T. Bradley 
6) A. Ward (activity dropped him)
7) J.M. Marquez 
8) W. Klitschko
9) M. Cotto
10) C. Frotch
11) S. Alvarez
12) B. Hopkins
13) J. Estrada
14) T. Crawford ( New entry)
15) A. Stevenson 
16) D. Garcia 
17) G. Golovkin ( Win over Geale good, but not great)
18) N. Donaire
19) M. Garcia
20) E. Lara
21) S. Martinez
22) K. Ioka
23) S. Yamanaka
24) T. Uchiyama
25) S. Kovalev
26) M. Maidana
27) C. Algieri
28) M. Huck
29) L. Matthysse
30) J. Gonzalez

Rough updated list, more changes to be made. Suggestions wanted. @Flea Man


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Jean Pascal is as good as Lara.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Ioka lost to Amnat Ruenrong recently mate
@Chacal


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Chacal said:


> 1) F. Mayweather
> 2) G. Rigondeaux
> 3) M. Pacquiao
> 4) R. Gonzalez
> ...


If you're gonna' put Mayweather at #1 (I wouldn't) then you have to put BHop much higher than #1 2. They're both master defensive fighters that can launch a decent offensive attack when it's safe to do so. - But Bhop has more power, and arguably a better life-long resume.

And Marco Huck at #28 ? HUCK? He's a slow-fisted caveman. GTFOOH with Huck.

Otherwise, pretty good list if "level of competition" is your main criteria. Personally, I think "P4P" should be based 100% on perceived ability, in which case "quality of opposition" is a factor but not the main one. For instance, I'd put Grigory Drodz about 20 miles above Huck. But hey, that's just me.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Jean Pascal is as good as Lara.


I had Lara beating canelo but gave canelo the credit as many had him winning, but Lara has a good resume really. Williams, trout, Molina, Angelo, martirosyan, close fight with canelo etc. I think he is deserving, personally. Any other points? I just wrote this up really fast as a rough list.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Ioka lost to Amnat Ruenrong recently mate
> 
> @Chacal


Damn, I'll take that into account. Would you completely drop him from the list?



Cableaddict said:


> If you're gonna' put Mayweather at #1 (I wouldn't) then you have to put BHop much higher than #1 2. They're both master defensive fighters that can launch a decent offensive attack when it's safe to do so. - But Bhop has more power, and arguably a better life-long resume.


Hopkins hasn't had a stoppage since Oscar. No way does he have more power, nor is it relevant. Mayweather has an amazing lifelong resume and has beaten solid fighters lately. He deserves the number 1 spot. Who do you have as 1?

I'm confused as to what to do with ward and Martinez


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Cable Addict this is a list of current P4P fighters...not ATGs.

It's also based on accomplishment, not 'if they were the same size who would win' (hate that shit) or 'who looks better on film'.

Huck has a decent resume and arguably deserved a win over a top 5-ranked heavyweight. He's worthy of a top 30 ranking.

Hopkins needs to be above Canelo though.


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> *Cable Addict this is a list of current P4P fighters...not ATGs.*
> 
> It's also based on accomplishment, not 'if they were the same size who would win' (hate that shit) or 'who looks better on film'.
> 
> ...


And P4P you don't think Drodz is better than Huck? C'mon son .......


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

And yes @Chacal I would. He's still relevant but not even top 5 at flyweight at the moment.

If Estrada beats Segura tonight he has Viloria and Segura, and a super close fight with a top 5 P4P fighter. I'd have him above Canelo (Estrada is clearly more skilled and arguably no.1 in a stacked division, regardless of whether Yaegashi was the 'lineal' champion, which means little at flyweight anyway) and he's beating his best opponents well (assuming he beats Segura convincingly) not having razor-thin decision victories like Alvarez has had over Lara and Trout.

I would still have Ward at no.2 myself.

Nonito is bloody hard to place isn't he! Can't see him below GGG but Nonito has looked pretty abysmal as of late despite his prior accomplishments (I tend to reset a fighters P4P ranking if they lose badly, and as I don't rank outside of a top 10 it works for me)


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Tim Bradley is wayyyyy too high. He went life and death with Provodnikov (and Provo actually won since Bradley sat on the ropes like 4 times in the fight - those are KD's) and he did good enough to win against JMM. He's been thoroughly outclassed by Manny twice and really hasn't looked dominant since...what? Devon Alexander?

Bradley is hardly a top 10 PFP fighter - sorry :rolleyes


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Cableaddict said:


> And P4P you don't think Drodz is better than Huck? C'mon son .......


Huck May be a caveman but he keeps winning and has a very good resume, including a win at hw against povetkin (fuck the judges). He is crude but deserves his place.



Flea Man said:


> And yes @Chacal I would. He's still relevant but not even top 5 at flyweight at the moment.
> 
> If Estrada beats Segura tonight he has Viloria and Segura, and a super close fight with a top 5 P4P fighter. I'd have him above Canelo (Estrada is clearly more skilled and arguably no.1 in a stacked division, regardless of whether Yaegashi was the 'lineal' champion, which means little at flyweight anyway) and he's beating his best opponents well (assuming he beats Segura convincingly) not having razor-thin decision victories like Alvarez has had over Lara and Trout.
> 
> ...


I may keep ward at 2 till the end of the year and if he has nothing scheduled he is out the top 10. Yeah, I was a bit stuck with Alvarez an Hopkins. Hopkins probably does deserve to be slightly higher I guess. If he beats kovalev he is jumping way up, and I think he will.

Estrada gets 10 spot if he wins. Hope he does as a Gonzalez rematch will be great. I'll remove ioka now

Vetyeka cut donaire with a punch in my eyes so that could have been a tko loss. If donaire beats Walters impressively and gets back on good form I'll put him up. I just see him as on the way out and GGG on the way in.



bjl12 said:


> Tim Bradley is wayyyyy too high. He went life and death with Provodnikov (and Provo actually won since Bradley sat on the ropes like 4 times in the fight - those are KD's) and he did good enough to win against JMM. He's been thoroughly outclassed by Manny twice and really hasn't looked dominant since...what? Devon Alexander?
> 
> Bradley is hardly a top 10 PFP fighter - sorry :rolleyes


It's only a knockdown if you fall into them and they hold you up. Bradley won that fight, beat a top 10 p4p Marquez clearly and I thought both Pac fights were close. Then add in the rest of his resume with witter, Holt, Alexander and a ton of good fighters he definitely deserves it.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

@Flea Man what do you make of Terrence Crawford? I reckon he is the future. Coming to Scotland and beating ricky in front of his fans and taking the belt then stopping gamboa is a star making performance shot him high up for me.

Amended list:

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward (has till end of year to schedule fight)
3) G. Rigondeaux
4) M. Pacquiao 
5) R. Gonzalez
6) T. Bradley 
7) J.M. Marquez 
8) W. Klitschko
9) M. Cotto
10) C. Frotch
11) B. Hopkins
12) S. Alvarez
13) J. Estrada
14) T. Crawford 
15) A. Stevenson 
16) D. Garcia 
17) G. Golovkin 
18) N. Donaire
19) M. Garcia
20) E. Lara
21) S. Martinez
22) S. Yamanaka
23) T. Uchiyama
24) S. Kovalev
25) M. Maidana
26) C. Algieri
27) M. Huck
28) L. Matthysse
29) K. Brook maybe?
30) J. Gonzalez


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Cableaddict said:


> And P4P you don't think Drodz is better than Huck? C'mon son .......


What the Hell are you talking about? He's not ranked anywhere near Huck (will be soon) so how is he more accomplished than him?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> Tim Bradley is wayyyyy too high. He went life and death with Provodnikov (and Provo actually won since Bradley sat on the ropes like 4 times in the fight - those are KD's) and he did good enough to win against JMM. He's been thoroughly outclassed by Manny twice and really hasn't looked dominant since...what? Devon Alexander?
> 
> Bradley is hardly a top 10 PFP fighter - sorry :rolleyes


He beat the no.2 P4P and has been the no.1 and no.2 at two different weights.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> What the Hell are you talking about? He's not ranked anywhere near Huck (will be soon) so how is he more accomplished than him?





Flea Man said:


> He beat the no.2 P4P and has been the no.1 and no.2 at two different weights.


Cable addict likes to say things that make les knowledgeable people think he knows boxing, but he is clueless.

Bjl is not a good poster either.


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

What does ranking have to do with P4P the best?

It's YOU that is clueless.


Today, at least.






Oh, and eat me. :SOK :bbb :hi:


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

And FWIW:

The most widely accepted definition of "The best P4P" is a fighter who would beat other top fighters IN OTHER WEIGHT CLASSES. By it's definition, the term rules out competition within a fighter's OWN weight class. Thus, A fighter's actual past opponents doesn't factor in nearly as much as his actual talent.



- But if you want to make up your own rules in an attempt to feel superior, heck, don't let me stop you.


:wales :wales :wales


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

I liked the list Chacal. 

I tend to rate Pacquiao lower than most, but thatÂ´s because I used to rate Bradley lower than most and this is the consequence I guess.
Estrada above Froch for sure i my humble opinion too.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Mauricio Herrera needs to be somewhere in that list. I'd also have Estrada somewhere in the top 10. Other than that, pretty good list.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Mauricio Herrera needs to be somewhere in that list. I'd also have Estrada somewhere in the top 10. Other than that, pretty good list.


Herrera is a decent shout. I'll think on him. Estrada may move up soon.


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## stevebhoy87 (Jun 4, 2013)

If Estrada wins like I expect him too tonight I'd definetly have him top 10, I might have him there anyway but one more quality win would definitely seal the deal for me


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

stevebhoy87 said:


> If Estrada wins like I expect him too tonight I'd definetly have him top 10, I might have him there anyway but one more quality win would definitely seal the deal for me


If he gets the win he hits 10 for me.


----------



## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

Ivan Drago said:


> True, it was just a stay busy fight but he looked sharp and broke him down beautifully. I feel in a fight or two there will be no question of him being top 10 P4P, I reckon him and Estrada will be in there by the end of the year.





Chacal said:


> If he gets the win he hits 10 for me.


:happy

Love these two fighters, guys have been bubbling under for a while but it's all falling into place. 2015 is where they will truly make a name for themselves on the P4P scene and hopefully gain wider renown if their rematch comes about.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward 
3) G. Rigondeaux
4) M. Pacquiao 
5) R. Gonzalez
6) T. Bradley 
7) J.M. Marquez 
8) W. Klitschko
9) J. Estrada
10) C. Froch
11) M Cotto
12) S. Alvarez
13) S. Kovalev
14) A. Stevenson
15) T. Crawford 
16) N. Walters
17) G. Golovkin 
18) D. Garcia 
19) M. Garcia
20) E. Lara *
21) B. Hopkins *
22) N. Donaire *
23) S. Yamanaka
24) T. Uchiyama
25) M. Huck
26) M. Maidana
27) L. Matthysse
28) C. Algieri
29) K. Brook
30) N. Inoue
fighters with *'s i'm unsure of.

@Flea Man I think I have quite a lot to change. I never know what to think of the Donaire's, Martinez's etc after they lose.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

I think I've dropped stevenson too much, I think I may have put walters too high and GGG too high.


----------



## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

1) F. Mayweather
2) M. Pacquiao
3) G. Rigondeaux
4) W. Klitschko
5) T. Bradley
6) J.M. Marquez
7) C. Froch
8) G. Golovkin
9) Gonzalez
10) M Cotto

Ward has been to inactive for me, How can you list Pac at 4 when he beat a P4P top fighter in his last fight


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> 1) F. Mayweather
> 2) M. Pacquiao
> 3) G. Rigondeaux
> 4) W. Klitschko
> ...


While ward has been inactive I'm giving him till the end of the year, I also gave Mayweather the benefit of the doubt during his last "retirement"

because he is 3-2 in his last 5, including a devastating KO. The second best fighter on the planet does not get sparked out like that. Rigondeaux's win over Donaire > Pacquiao's win over Bradley.

Your list is a joke though. Gonzalez only at 9? Golovkin in the top 10?

laughable.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> I think I have quite a lot to change


Alvarez is too high on your list - he fought some average/good/great fighters but he never beat anyone good convincingly - he's a good flawed fighter who is willing to take risks though.

Crawford and Walters I'd say a one solid victory away from eclipsing Canelo - both resumes are thin but both have big decisive wins over well-known capable opponents. And both looked good in the process.

Huck I'm not sure of - his resume looks better than it really is - the first Aslan (an ancient Aslan) fight was very controversial, Lebedev too, that Afolabi trilogy was as mediocre as it gets.

Inoue deserves a mention.

Martinez should be dropped off the list - he's finished - and the Cotto loss was embarrassing.

Ward should be penalized for non-activity.

El Nica is a glaring unforgivable omission.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Alvarez is too high on your list - he fought some average/good/great fighters but he never beat anyone good convincingly.
> 
> Crawford and Walters I'd say a one solid victory away from eclipsing Canelo - both resumes are thin but both have big decisive wins over well-known capable opponents.
> 
> ...


IMO I have Canelo too high but his resume is starting to look good to be fair. I had Crawford quite a bit higher but lowered him for some reason, when he beats Beltran he has pretty much cleared out the division so he will eclipse canelo. Walters only has the one solid win really so I'm not sure.

Huck still has some pretty good wins on his resume (and should have Povetkin on there too), he is a total caveman but I 100% think he deserves a top 30 spot.

Ward has grace till the end of the year for me

I think you're likely right about Martinez. He should be retired too.

I thought I had Inoue on here, fuck. Where would you say he deserves a place?

El Nica Concepcion? Give some reasoning please.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> I thought I had Inoue on here, fuck. Where would you say he deserves a place?


At the bottom of your list probably.

A.Hernandez is his only notable win, to be fair - but he looked promising so far, a young talented fighter - again he's a one good win (the Narvaez fight) away from really establishing himself as a top 20-30 P4P-worthy champion.

So far he's on par with Brook or Algieri resume-wise, more or less.



Chacal said:


> El Nica Concepcion? Give some reasoning please.


El Nica is above reason.

You just have to believe in him.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> At the bottom of your list probably.
> 
> A.Hernandez is his only notable win, to be fair - but he looked promising so far, a young talented fighter - again he's a one good win (the Narvaez fight) away from really establishing himself as a top 20-30 P4P-worthy champion.
> 
> ...


I've made a few changes if you'd like to have a look. Crawford up, Stevenson up, Martinez off, Inoue added, algieri below maidana (seems fair imo)


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

If Wlad is impressive against Pulev tonight he will go up a spot or two.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> I've made a few changes if you'd like to have a look. Crawford up, Stevenson up, Martinez off, Inoue added, algieri below maidana (seems fair imo)


Agreed on Agieri.

I'd switch Garcias probably - that Herrera loss really hurts Danny.

I know you're not a fan of Kovalev but he has earned the right to be rated above Canelo, Cotto too maybe. At least for now.
He's been totally dominant unlike Canelo, has a decent resume and completely shut-out Hopkins - who at least looked like a capable old fighter, while Martinez looked like shit against Cotto.


----------



## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Chacal said:


> While ward has been inactive I'm giving him till the end of the year, I also gave Mayweather the benefit of the doubt during his last "retirement"
> 
> because he is 3-2 in his last 5, including a devastating KO. The second best fighter on the planet does not get sparked out like that. Rigondeaux's win over Donaire > Pacquiao's win over Bradley.
> 
> ...


ward has been inactive I'm giving him till the end of the year - Fair enough

The second best fighter on the planet does not get sparked out like that. - Its not like he got sparked against a bum, he got sparked against a P4P top 5 fighter at the time and lets not carried away 3-2? He beat Bradley like 117-111 in their first fight

Rigondeaux's win over Donaire > Pacquiao's win over Bradley. - yes but Rigo's win was a while ago, since then he's fought a very average possibly past it agbeko and a nobody from thailand

Gonzalez only at 9? Golovkin in the top 10? - GGG top 10, maybe not, can argue against it, its your opinion, what has gonzalez actually done barring the Mares fight, for example garcia's win over Khan, Mathysse>>Mares Win, he went 11 with a ancient shot to shit arce, also went 10 with a unknown fighter - atwell or some shit. yet you have DG at 18, but gonzalez at 5?

Your list is a joke though. laughable. - you're a bit too sensitive lad, a P4P list is someones opinion, so calm down


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Agreed on Agieri.
> 
> I'd switch Garcias probably - that Herrera loss really hurts Danny.
> 
> ...


I want to clear this up here:

I am a fan of Kovalev. I have been since the Campillo fight, when I saw that fight I was of the opinion he was the future of 175. I just see a lot of flaws in him (He proved a lot against Hopkins though and showed he can overcome his own mistakes) that made me think Hopkins could work on but he couldn't. I think Ward could, I think Stevenson has a good chance at landing a big left hand and I rate Beterbiev insanely highly so that is why I may be percieved as disliking him, but I AM a fan of Kovalev and I do enjoy watching him box.

I get what you're saying with the garcia's but Danny has the much better wins and that isn't refutable imo, Mikey has done absolutely fuck all this year so I've had no reason to move him up while others have been surpassing him. I had Danny 10 or 11 before the Herrera fight. Actually Herrera should definitely be in my top 30, I thought I had him there. Odd.

Kovalev's big wins: Campillo, Cleverly, Hopkins

Alvarez's big wins: Trout, Angulo, Lara

hmm
I think you may be right actually. Especially considering I thought Lara beat Canelo, and Kovalev hasn't lost yet whereas Canelo was made to look stupid by Floyd.

I will think this over a bit more but that is a good shout, thanks.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> ward has been inactive I'm giving him till the end of the year - Fair enough
> 
> The second best fighter on the planet does not get sparked out like that. - Its not like he got sparked against a bum, he got sparked against a P4P top 5 fighter at the time and lets not carried away 3-2? He beat Bradley like 117-111 in their first fight
> 
> ...


He lost to Marquez in the third fight, so yes, 3-2. I also thought the first Bradley with was closer than many said.

I think Rigondeaux and Pac are on a similar level just now, Rigo is clearly more skilled and has the bigger win and hasn't lost though which is why I have him higher.

You've made a mistake here my friend. When people rate "gonzalez" in the top 10, absolutely nobody means johnny gonzalez (the one who sparked mares). They're talking about Roman Gonzalez, the little nicaraguan dude with wins over: Yaegashi, Estrada and many other solid fighters. There's argument to rate him as high as p4p 2 imo. If you haven't seen him fight I highly recommend looking him up.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Actually Herrera should definitely be in my top 30, I thought I had him there. Odd.


M.Herrera is a good shout actually - forgot about him.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> M.Herrera is a good shout actually - forgot about him.


Where would you say is good for him?

A close win over Garcia and a win over Provodnikov. I'm thinking putting him inbetween Maidana and matthysse. If he beats benavidez I'll shoot him up a few more places too.


----------



## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Chacal said:


> He lost to Marquez in the third fight, so yes, 3-2. I also thought the first Bradley with was closer than many said.
> 
> I think Rigondeaux and Pac are on a similar level just now, Rigo is clearly more skilled and has the bigger win and hasn't lost though which is why I have him higher.
> 
> You've made a mistake here my friend. When people rate "gonzalez" in the top 10, absolutely nobody means johnny gonzalez (the one who sparked mares). They're talking about Roman Gonzalez, the little nicaraguan dude with wins over: Yaegashi, Estrada and many other solid fighters. There's argument to rate him as high as p4p 2 imo. If you haven't seen him fight I highly recommend looking him up.


I think Rigondeaux and Pac are on a similar level just now, Rigo is clearly more skilled and has the bigger win and hasn't lost though which is why I have him higher. - Fair enough, but he still needs to fight good fighters, he cant just sit on the donaire win, same way if pac fights another algeri in his next fight, you can move him dow, in terms of levels, I feel Rigo is ahead of Pac and Floyd - i think pacs dropped couple of levels and floyd a level in the last few years

My bad - I saw him fight estrada - he didn't look that good...No way near top 10, and unless he has improved by a long long way, he shouldn't be in top 10

And I rated Mares highly so I had J Gonzalez there, and I cant have a personal list of P4P, if I havent seen the guy in 2? years


----------



## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

He's got a decent resume, he beat DG but he didn't even turn up, its a hard one that, I had it a draw vs Provodkinov and also, many a fighter beat him at 140-147


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> I think Rigondeaux and Pac are on a similar level just now, Rigo is clearly more skilled and has the bigger win and hasn't lost though which is why I have him higher. - Fair enough, but he still needs to fight good fighters, he cant just sit on the donaire win, same way if pac fights another algeri in his next fight, you can move him dow, in terms of levels, I feel Rigo is ahead of Pac and Floyd - i think pacs dropped couple of levels and floyd a level in the last few years
> 
> My bad - I saw him fight estrada - he didn't look that good...No way near top 10, and unless he has improved by a long long way, he shouldn't be in top 10
> 
> And I rated Mares highly so I had J Gonzalez there, and I cant have a personal list of P4P, if I havent seen the guy in 2? years


Yeah I rated Mares really highly too so I put J Gonzalez quite high but he has done fuck all really and doesn't deserve to be very high.

Mate Gonzalez is fucking phenomenal. He is the future of the sport. After beating Estrada, Estrada went on to beat Brian Viloria (who was in my top 10 at the time) proving both their levels. Both guys have improved massively since and Gonzalez - Estrada 2 is the biggest fight in 2015. It's a phenomenal fight.

Watch Gonzalez's last fight against Yaegashi (who I had in my p4p list too). You'll see what the hype is about.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Where would you say is good for him?
> 
> A close win over Garcia and a win over Provodnikov. I'm thinking putting him inbetween Maidana and matthysse. If he beats benavidez I'll shoot him up a few more places too.


Maidana and Matthysse should not be separated. Ever.
They are like Crockett and Tubbs of boxing.









The Special One is untouchable.

Throw out Algieri instead.


----------



## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Chacal said:


> Yeah I rated Mares really highly too so I put J Gonzalez quite high but he has done fuck all really and doesn't deserve to be very high.
> 
> Mate Gonzalez is fucking phenomenal. He is the future of the sport. After beating Estrada, Estrada went on to beat Brian Viloria (who was in my top 10 at the time) proving both their levels. Both guys have improved massively since and Gonzalez - Estrada 2 is the biggest fight in 2015. It's a phenomenal fight.
> 
> Watch Gonzalez's last fight against Yaegashi (who I had in my p4p list too). You'll see what the hype is about.


Saw estrada vs Viloria, I watch all the big fights of the smaller guys, but I haven't watched Gonzalez since, normally when I don't watch a fighter for a while, he hasn't fought anyone good, may not be the case, but if I look at his past few fights, I only recognise estrada....Resume is still thin without a Estrada rematch to be rated top 5 (if you just look at the records, since last fight I saw was a while back of him)


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> Saw estrada vs Viloria, I watch all the big fights of the smaller guys, but I haven't watched Gonzalez since, normally when I don't watch a fighter for a while, he hasn't fought anyone good, may not be the case, but if I look at his past few fights, I only recognise estrada....Resume is still thin without a Estrada rematch to be rated top 5 (if you just look at the records, since last fight I saw was a while back of him)


Yaegashi is a very, very, very good win that solidified his top 5 place. Seriously.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> 1) F. Mayweather
> 2) M. Pacquiao
> 3) G. Rigondeaux
> 4) W. Klitschko
> ...


Golovkin above Gonzalez? Are you insane?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> Saw estrada vs Viloria, I watch all the big fights of the smaller guys, but I haven't watched Gonzalez since, normally when I don't watch a fighter for a while, he hasn't fought anyone good, may not be the case, but if I look at his past few fights, I only recognise estrada....Resume is still thin without a Estrada rematch to be rated top 5 (if you just look at the records, since last fight I saw was a while back of him)


Yaegashi was the lineal flyweight champion.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Golovkin above Gonzalez? Are you insane?


It's Johnny Gonzalez he is listing there is what makes it worse :lol:


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Maidana and Matthysse should not be separated. Ever.
> They are like Crockett and Tubbs of boxing.
> 
> 
> ...


I just don't want my list to look like I'm grouping the Japs and Argentines together :lol:


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward 
3) G. Rigondeaux
4) M. Pacquiao 
5) R. Gonzalez
6) T. Bradley 
7) J.M. Marquez 
8) W. Klitschko
9) J. Estrada
10) C. Froch
11) M Cotto
12) S. Kovalev
13) S. Alvarez
14) A. Stevenson
15) T. Crawford 
16) N. Walters
17) G. Golovkin 
18) D. Garcia 
19) M. Garcia
20) E. Lara 
21) B. Hopkins 
22) N. Donaire 
23) S. Yamanaka
24) T. Uchiyama
25) M. Huck
26) M. Maidana
27) L. Matthysse 
28) K. Brook
39) N. Inoue
30) M. Herrera 

This seems decent. Maintaining a top 30 was a lot harder than I thought it'd be.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> Saw estrada vs Viloria, I watch all the big fights of the smaller guys, but I haven't watched Gonzalez since, normally when I don't watch a fighter for a while, he hasn't fought anyone good, may not be the case, but if I look at his past few fights, I only recognise estrada....Resume is still thin without a Estrada rematch to be rated top 5 (if you just look at the records, since last fight I saw was a while back of him)


Gonzalez' win over Rodriguez is looking better by the day, his win over Yaegashi is also excellent, along with the Estrada win (whos a top 10 p4p guy). Plus factor in his dominance, and skillset..the guy is the truth and a top 5 p4p guy without a doubt.

Mayweather is lucky there isn't anyone with Roman's style and skillset at that weight, or he wouldn't have that "0" with him...unless he would duck him, which would be a high possibility. :deal


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> It's Johnny Gonzalez he is listing there is what makes it worse :lol:


:rofl:rofl:lol::lol:atsch


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> :rofl:rofl:lol::lol:atsch


what do you make of my new list mate?

1) F. Mayweather
2) A. Ward 
3) G. Rigondeaux
4) M. Pacquiao 
5) R. Gonzalez
6) W. Klitschko (>8)
7) T. Bradley 
8) J.M. Marquez 
9) J. Estrada
10) C. Froch
11) M Cotto
12) S. Kovalev
13) S. Alvarez
14) A. Stevenson
15) T. Crawford 
16) N. Walters
17) G. Golovkin 
18) D. Garcia 
19) M. Garcia
20) E. Lara 
21) B. Hopkins 
22) N. Donaire 
23) S. Yamanaka
24) T. Uchiyama
25) M. Huck
26) M. Maidana
27) L. Matthysse 
28) K. Brook
39) N. Inoue
30) M. Herrera


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> what do you make of my new list mate?
> 
> 1) F. Mayweather
> 2) A. Ward
> ...


Pretty soild.

Your top 10 is almost spot on, i agree with everyone there although i'd personally switch some of the orders of ranking. As for the rest of your top 30, it's solid, although i would personally have Herrera higher.

Overall very good list. :good


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Pretty soild.
> 
> Your top 10 is almost spot on, i agree with everyone there although i'd personally switch some of the orders of ranking. As for the rest of your top 30, it's solid, although i would personally have Herrera higher.
> 
> Overall very good list. :good


Wlad is going up a few spots now in my list after the job he just did on Pulev, and I think Gonzalez could be above Pacquiao possibly.

I don't know what to do with Herrera, he's a tough one to rate.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Mayweather is lucky there isn't anyone with Roman's style and skillset at that weight, or he wouldn't have that "0" with him...unless he would duck him, which would be a high possibility. :deal


Both Pac and Floyd have declined significantly. Pac especially.

Their past victories, fame, historical achievements are what protecting their P4P-status. To some extent.

They don't look like The best fighters anymore.

People can praise Maidana ad nauseum - he's still just Maidana - and he made Floyd scream like a girl.

People can talk of Marquez's PEDs until they're blue in the face - Pac got sparked and that's that.

Lower-rated fighters like Ward or Rigo or the aforementioned Chocolatito - their resumes pale in comparison to these two.

But they look like fighters who would make both Pac and Floyd look geriatric.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> P4P


Ring's new list:

1. Floyd Mayweather jr
2. Wladimir Klitschko
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Roman Gonzalez
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux
6. Tim Bradley
7. Juan Manuel Marquez
8. Cark Froch
9. Canelo Alvarez
10. Gennady Golovkin


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Good list I would only have Herrera above Danny Garcia as he beat him comfortably


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

bradley number 6?
jmm number number 7?


where is walters?

where is crawford?

terrance wide UD the number four and number one ranked opponents in 2014 along with koing gamboa

thats pretty much number one pfp criteria


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

quincy k said:


> bradley number 6?
> jmm number number 7?
> 
> where is walters?
> ...


This hasnt been updates in months,, but you're wrong.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

Chacal said:


> This hasnt been updates in months,, but you're wrong.


i was referring to lester1583s top ten list from ring magazine that he referenced yesterday

there is no way either jmm or bradely should be ahead of crawford

it would actually be funny to hear someone try to debate it


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

quincy k said:


> i was referring to lester1583s top ten list from ring magazine that he referenced yesterday
> 
> there is no way either jmm or bradely should be ahead of crawford
> 
> it would actually be funny to hear someone try to debate it


You're wrong. Bradley has a much better resume, as does JMM.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

Chacal said:


> You're wrong. Bradley has a much better resume, as does JMM.


http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings
RATINGS POLICY

Results. This is the most objective criterion and takes precedence over all others.
Performance. How a fighter performs in a victory or defeat can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings.
Track record: A fighterâ€™s accomplishments in the recent past can be a factor to determine his place in the ratings. That includes quality of opposition.


track record is the third criteria for ring magazines pfp list with results being number one

jmm most recent results are a paq ko, a loss to bradley and a win over a jww who was coming off a ko loss and pretty much fighting for the first time at 147

under ring magazines own criteria for p4p rankings i have no idea how they have jmm ranked over terrance crawford


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)




----------



## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Marquez is as good as retired he shouldn't be on any p4p list


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

PivotPunch said:


> Marquez is as good as retired he shouldn't be on any p4p list


Untrue.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


>


Decent first 5. Golovkin shouldn't be in the list, Bradley and Marquez should be above froch, froch should be above kovalev.


----------



## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Untrue.


He hasn't fought forever, is over 40, has knee issues and nacho thinks he will retire so yes he's as good as retired


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Decent first 5. Golovkin shouldn't be in the list, *Bradley and Marquez should be above froch*, froch should be above kovalev.


Nah and nah. And nah.


----------



## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

Kovalev should be above Froch, there's more to a fighter than just resume. Recent performances clearly indicate that Kovalev currently is the better fighter. Agree with GGG, until he beats someone of note he shouldn't be in the p4p list.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

PivotPunch said:


> He hasn't fought forever, is over 40, has knee issues and nacho thinks he will retire so yes he's as good as retired


When he gets to a years inactivity he'll be gone.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)




----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Kovalev below Gennady


:lol:


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Gennady being top 10 :lol:


----------



## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Klitschko at 2 :rofl
Guy is way too limited to be ranked that high.


----------



## Danny (May 31, 2012)

dyna said:


> Kovalev below Gennady
> 
> :lol:


Hopkins and Pascal are much better wins than any on Golovkin's resumÃ©.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Berliner said:


> Klitschko at 2 :rofl
> Guy is way too limited to be ranked that high.


Klitschko's placing is fair.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Danny said:


> Hopkins and Pascal are much better wins than any on Golovkin's resumÃ©.


That's why I was laughing.
Estrada and Kovalev >>>> GGG all day every day.


----------



## Danny (May 31, 2012)

dyna said:


> That's why I was laughing.
> Estrada and Kovalev >>>> GGG all day every day.


I thought you said above sorry. :lol: Been a long day clearly...

Agreed. :thumbsup


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> fair.


Keeps getting better with every update:


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Keeps getting better with every update:


Which list is this ? Yamanaka number 10 ? He is good but this sounds a bit kinda odd to see him in the top 10...


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Vic said:


> Which list is this ?


Bible of boxing's.



Vic said:


> Yamanaka number 10 ? He is good but this sounds a bit kinda odd to see him in the top 10...


You just saying that cuz Neymar sucks.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)




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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Bible of boxing's.
> 
> You just saying that cuz Neymar sucks.


It makes not much sense, why not Uchyama then ?
FlÃ¡vio *C*aÃ§a-*R*ato (the true *CR*7, in english his name mean "Mouse-Hunter" FlÃ¡vio) > Neymar


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Vic said:


> It makes not much sense, why not Uchyama then ?


Cuz Uchiyama looked vulnurable in two of his last three fights and all japanese look the same to the westerners.

They could have put some random name in there with a picture of impossibru guy - nobody would even notice any difference.



Vic said:


> FlÃ¡vio *C*aÃ§a-*R*ato (the true *CR*7, in english his name mean "Mouse-Hunter" FlÃ¡vio) > Neymar


Compared to Pele's Robin, Coutinho, they're not even footballers.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

ffs ring :lol:


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Chacal said:


> ffs ring :lol:


I think the ranking guy is a really disciplined troll


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Berliner said:


> Klitschko at 2 :rofl
> Guy is way too limited to be ranked that high.


So? He's also incredibly dominant and the hardest puncher in the sport.


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> So? He's also incredibly dominant and the* hardest puncher in the sport*.


P4P? I dont agree. And he dominates an awful division.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Berliner said:


> P4P? I dont agree. And he dominates an awful division.


Who hits harder P4P then? And who would you have above him? Because Crawford and Golovkin have fought worse opposition.


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Who hits harder P4P then? And who would you have above him? Because Crawford and Golovkin have fought worse opposition.


Kovalev hits pretty hard. Golovkin also. In my opinion Kovalev is P4P the hardest puncher. If Kovalev lands clean hard punches you get hurt. His offensive game is also much more dangerous than Klitschkos. I think Kovalev would have knocked out a guy like Wach or Jennings.
But anyway you cant really say who the best puncher is. What you can judge are boxing skills. And in that regard Wladimir Klitschko is pretty limited. He only throws the same punches. A jab, a left hook and a straight right. Mostly the same combinations. jab, straight right (and maybe a left hook next). Almost never goes to the body and except clinching he cant do anything when his opponents get close.
Klitschko dominates a weak ass division while he is mostly the bigger fighter in the ring and while he gets the help from home refs. (povetkin)


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Where would someone even begin trying to crack this chin?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dyna said:


> Where would someone even begin trying to crack this chin?


Who by the way was also bigger than Wlad.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Berliner said:


> And in that regard Wladimir Klitschko is pretty limited. He only throws the same punches. A jab, a left hook and a straight right. Mostly the same combinations. jab, straight right (and maybe a left hook next). Almost never goes to the body and except clinching he cant do anything when his opponents get close.


Surely it's even more impressive that he's so dominant?


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Surely it's even more impressive that he's so dominant?


I dont think so. Because in my opinion the division is just weak enough so that he can dominate with his limited fighting style. Plus 99% of his opponent cant match him in a physical way. You have to consider his physical advantages when you want to rate him in a p4p system.
Anyway I dont do P4P lists but Klitschko just isnt impressive enough for me to be called the second best fighter in the world.


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

dyna said:


> Where would someone even begin trying to crack this chin?


Wlad landed plenty hard shots. I really think if Kovalev fights an average guy like Wach. Who has the same strong chin (in a P4P sense) He would knock that guy out.
Kovalev punches very very hard.


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

Assuming Wach is a big 175'er for this discussion then I don't see Kovalev knocking him out, the ref probably pulls him out at some point though


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

New Ring's list:



> 1. Floyd Mayweather Jr
> 2. RomÃ¡n GonzÃ¡lez
> 3. Wladimir Klitschko
> 4. Gennady Golovkin
> ...


Accurate as always.


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## Mexi-Box (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> New Ring's list:
> 
> Accurate as always.


Actually, seems like the Ring has been updating like crazy lately or is it just me? They were a long time with the top 5 or 8 not moving. After the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight, it seems like it's been updating constantly.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Golovkin looks immense but isn't proven yey imo.

He destroyed Geale, granted but so did Cotto. He stopped Macklin and Murray very impressively but is that top ten material p4p? 

If he beats a Cotto or Canelo then I'd have him up there.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Just seen Lara has called him out, if he beats Lara I would have him top ten, but I think I'd have to have him 10th and Cotto 9th until they fight or Cotto loses.


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

Luf said:


> Golovkin looks immense but isn't proven yey imo.
> 
> He destroyed Geale, granted but so did Cotto. He stopped Macklin and Murray very impressively but is that top ten material p4p?
> 
> If he beats a Cotto or Canelo then I'd have him up there.


top 10 is fair, if it's 9 or 10, but 4 is just stupid. I don't like either of the Japs at 9 and 10 at the moment either.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Why is GGG ranked above Kovalev, GGG fan but Kovalev had the better opposition


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Berliner said:


> I dont think so. Because in my opinion the division is just weak enough so that he can dominate with his limited fighting style. Plus 99% of his opponent cant match him in a physical way. You have to consider his physical advantages when you want to rate him in a p4p system.
> Anyway I dont do P4P lists but Klitschko just isnt impressive enough for me to be called the second best fighter in the world.


Don't you count dominance and longevity in your p4p rankings? Also a 250 pound guy isn't going to look as smooth or techincal as a 147 pound guy, it's just harder to gauge where they at. And Wlad has a pretty good resume all things considered, people forget that the heavyweight division historically speaking is often not so good and their tends to be one dominant guy for a few years/one generation (Klitschko, Holmes, Louis).


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> Why is GGG ranked above Kovalev, GGG fan but Kovalev had the better opposition


Because Gennady has a cute face.


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

dyna said:


> Because Gennady has a cute face.


And because Kovalev is a racist.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Unknown Poster said:


> top 10 is fair, if it's 9 or 10, but 4 is just stupid. I don't like either of the Japs at 9 and 10 at the moment either.


Not sure what mine would be tbh.

Mayweather 
Gonzalez 
Rigondeaux 
Pacquiao 
Bradley
Marquez
Klitschko
Froch
Crawford
Canelo
Cotto
Golovkin 
Stevenson
Kovalev 
Uchiyama


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

dyna said:


> Because Gennady has a cute face.


Can't argue with that, he also doesn't have a purse


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> I'm gonna personally chop the hands off of a guy who left out Estrada with my poisoned machete.





Chacal said:


> The Special One will lead us to a new era of Chocolate Brownie boxing





Berliner said:


> Kovalev has a cute racist face.


New Ring's P4P list:

1. Roman Gonzalez
2. Andre Ward
3. Sergey Kovalev
4. Gennady Golovkin
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux
6. Wladimir Klitschko
7. Terence Crawford
8. Manny Pacquiao
9. Shinsuke Yamanaka
10. Kell Brook

How do you like them apples?


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> New Ring's P4P list:
> 
> 1. Roman Gonzalez
> 2. Andre Ward
> ...


My goodness


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> My goodness


Yup, signing up to fight Fury was Wladimir's downfall.

Imagine what will happen after Klitschko beats him?

Probabaly gonna strip him of his belts and sentence him to fighting on Tony Bellew's undercards for the rest of Eddie Hearn's life.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Chacal said:


> My goodness


New Ring's P4P list:



> 1. Roman Gonzalez
> 2. Sergey Kovalev
> 3. Gennady Golovkin
> 4. Andre Ward
> ...


It's heart warming to see that Yamanaka's loss to Moreno hasn't affected his rankings at all.

Meanwhile Ward's career-defining win over Mr & Mrs Smith has been rightfully acknowledged by the distinguished boxing experts.

And Klitschko needs to up his game - poor guy is on the verge of getting kicked out cuz of his shaky performances.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> New Ring's P4P list:
> 
> It's heart warming to see that Yamanaka's loss to Moreno hasn't affected his rankings at all.
> 
> ...


That list seems so off, but because of Ward and Rigo's inactivity, they can't get ranked properly. I'd have Canelo in there over Brook and Pacquiao over Crawford.


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## Wig (Jan 26, 2014)

_"Poun feh poun babeh"








_


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> I'd have Canelo


What's your reasoning behind hating jamaicans?


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> What's your reasoning behind hating jamaicans?


:yep no hate for Jamaicans. 2 of my closest friends are Jamaican. I guess it helps that they're cousins also


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)




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