# Frazier Chuvalo



## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Ive always thought Chuvalo was overrated both as a fighter and for his toughness. Watching his fights Ive always felt like he was a guy who when he got tagged consistently and stopped really trying to win and simply came forward without doing much. Its a tactic that Purrity, Tua, and a lot of other supposed tough guys use. It gives the appearance of aggression but without them actually trying to win or leave openings. So I was watching Frazier-Chuvalo the other day and I was struck something. In this fight, because Chuvalo is able to occasionally land, he actually continues throwing punches while Frazier is tagging him. However, it leaves a lot of openings for Frazier which Smokin Joe takes advantage of. Very early Chuvalo is cut in at least two places. Finally Chuvalo turns his back and essentially quits after being tagged good by Frazier. There is a photo of Chuvalo and Frazier in the ring after the fight and while Chuvalo's eye is swollen, its not swollen grotesquelly as weve seen happen when an orbital bone is shattered. Chuvalo, who always had a ready excuse for every loss, has always claimed that his orbital bone was shattered and thats why he quit. Here is the interesting thing though: When I went back and looked at the reports and old newspaper coverage of the fight, there was no mention by Chuvalo or his people of any serious injury until a few days after the fight AFTER the reporters were calling him a quitter and saying that he should now retire. Chuvalo, when telling this story, always states that he won the first three rounds on the judges scorecards and that he was forced to retire because of this injury. Thats not true. I went back and looked at the cards and he did not win all three rounds. In fact I think only one judge had him winning one round. To me it now looks like Chuvalo was lured into a shootout with Frazier and took a hellacious amount of punishment very early (Frazier was fantastic both defensively and offensively in this fight) and quit rather than go six and half more rounds with a swollen, bloody face. Then, when there was a backlash from the press for him quitting the story of the eye was concocted and this morphed over time to make Chuvalo look like he was doing better than he actually was.


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## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

I watched this fight recently I thought the first round was closely contested but edged it to Frazier and the second was pretty competitive also . I didn't give chuvalo a round to be honest though , when Frazier connects very early in the 4th chuvalo's reaction is one of being in acute pain . For me anyway


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

That was shaping up to be a real good fight and Chuvalo was competitive and you underrate him a little. He gave Ali and Patterson very tough fights that were close to draws, you have to be pretty good to hang with those two. I think Chuvalo's eye socket needed reconstructive surgery so it was a serious break.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

kenny black said:


> That was shaping up to be a real good fight and Chuvalo was competitive and you underrate him a little. He gave Ali and Patterson very tough fights that were close to draws, you have to be pretty good to hang with those two. I think Chuvalo's eye socket needed reconstructive surgery so it was a serious break.


He lost those fights. Period. If ever a fighter was made for the Chuvalo of myth and legend it was the smaller, fragile Floyd Patterson and yet Chuvalo couldnt beat him. The Ali fight was not close. Ali toyed with him. Chuvalo even stated that he didnt perform well because he took the fight on short notice. He gets a lot of mileage out of saying that Ali was pissing blood after the fight and he went dancing but what he neglects to add is that Ali was pissing blood because Chuvalo threw about 10,000 kidney punches (which Ali took him to task for the week after on the WWOS replay). Again, it was Chuvalo's story that he needed surgery after the fight and this party line didnt start until days later when the press backlash had peaked. Prior to this, in the days after the fight, Chuvalo was interviewed and never once mentioned anything about a serious injury. I never said Chuvalo didnt have his moments against Frazier. Quite the opposite, but he was clearly losing every round and for every punch Chuvalo landed Frazier landed 10. Chuvalo's best moment was when he bulled Frazier back, almost pushed him through the ropes, and then while Frazier was off balance he unloaded. Mere seconds later Frazier was giving Chuvalo an ass whipping. If you ever want to see the longest litany of excuses watch the documentary "The Last Round" about Chuvalo. Every single fight he watches that he loses he has an excuse for. Thats awfully convenient.


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## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

Most fighters have excuses for some if not most or all their defeats .


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> That was shaping up to be a real good fight and Chuvalo was competitive and you underrate him a little. He gave Ali and Patterson very tough fights that were close to draws, you have to be pretty good to hang with those two. I think Chuvalo's eye socket needed reconstructive surgery so it was a serious break.


The Patterson fight was relatively close but Chuvalo wasn't close to fighting Ali to a draw. It wasn't close, it wasn't close to close. I think a shutout with Ali winning every round is more reasonable than a draw. I think 12-3 is fair to George for the first fight.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> The Patterson fight was relatively close but Chuvalo wasn't close to fighting Ali to a draw. It wasn't close, it wasn't close to close. I think a shutout with Ali winning every round is more reasonable than a draw. I think 12-3 is fair to George for the first fight.


If you count body shots their first fight was close and I score body punching, Chuvalo tested prime Ali more so then any fighter in history. Ali's body was beaten to a bloody pulp in the first fight and in the second Chuvalo gave Ali a good fight and landed the harder punches and many of them again were to the body.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> If you count body shots their first fight was close and I score body punching, Chuvalo tested prime Ali more so then any fighter in history. Ali's body was beaten to a bloody pulp in the first fight and in the second Chuvalo gave Ali a good fight and landed the harder punches and many of them again were to the body.


I love body punching. Even if you count body shots as equal to head shots Chuvalo has no argument for being close to having fought Ali to a draw. He was outlanded in pretty much every round they fought and he wasn't breaking Ali down. No one else has every said those fights were close; I doubt Chuvalo thought they were close. He was simply outclassed.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> I love body punching. Even if you count body shots as equal to head shots Chuvalo has no argument for being close to having fought Ali to a draw. He was outlanded in pretty much every round they fought and he wasn't breaking Ali down. No one else has every said those fights were close; I doubt Chuvalo thought they were close. He was simply outclassed.


That's because most people now days love Ali. And Chuvalo is considered a pretty basic fighter although there may be a little more to him if he was able to hit Ali as often as he did. If you watch the fights with no bias Chuvalo did a lot of real good work and landed some real punishing shots a lot more punishing then Ali's punches were imo.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

First, a kidney punch is not a scoring blow. If you dont score the kidney punches (a lot of which Ali gave him to show Chuvalo they werent bothering him) then Chuvalo's bodywork was largely ineffective. Second, score all of the bodyshots you want, they werent winning Chuvalo 50% of the rounds or even close to it. Third, look at the official cards. He was given only 3 rounds, 2 rounds, and 1 round by the officials with 2 rounds even on two cards and 1 round even on the other two. Thats not a close fight in a 15 rounder, thats a blowout.

Here is how sports illustrated describes your imagined body beating:

The fight itself was chiefly memorable for Clay's outrageous conduct in the early going and the permissiveness of the referee, who officiated in street clothes, his shirt sleeves rolled to his elbows as though he were about to do a bit of honest work. *In the first few rounds Clay stood stock still on occasion with his arms raised, as though posing for a chest X ray, and invited Chuvalo to bang him to the body. Indeed, he exhorted the challenger for the People's Championship to hit him harder. The most visible effect of these blows was that they pulled Clay's trunks down, revealing his bright-red protector.*

here was their description of the ridiculous officiating of the referee letting Chuvalo repeatedly foul:

The referee, a clothing salesman name of Jackie Silvers, bemusedly allowed Chuvalo to hit Clay low countless times with what Chuvalo's sparring partner. Hubert Hilton, calls "anywhere punches"; Silvers' first perceptible warning came in the 12th round. His explanation was that the blows were inadvertent, integral to Chuvalo's style, of little consequence, and Clay was not making any beefs. (However, Clay said afterward that the foul punches were the only ones that hurt.) This reasoning did not impress Dundee any more than it would have impressed John Stuart Mill. Angelo kept yelling at Silvers from the corner, "You're a hell of a man. You're a stand-up Johnny. I'd like to have you on my team. You're a creep."

The article mentions the few deluded Chuvalo adherents who thought, like you, that Chuvalo COULD have been given a draw. The writer answered:

"Clay wholly dominated the fight. He wore Chuvalo's face on the end of his glove."

I couldnt have said it better myself.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> First, a kidney punch is not a scoring blow. If you dont score the kidney punches (a lot of which Ali gave him to show Chuvalo they werent bothering him) then Chuvalo's bodywork was largely ineffective. Second, score all of the bodyshots you want, they werent winning Chuvalo 50% of the rounds or even close to it. Third, look at the official cards. He was given only 3 rounds, 2 rounds, and 1 round by the officials with 2 rounds even on two cards and 1 round even on the other two. Thats not a close fight in a 15 rounder, thats a blowout.
> 
> Here is how sports illustrated describes your imagined body beating:
> 
> ...


Sounds like a lot of excuses to me. Why are you making all these excuses if it was such a blow out?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Where did I make one excuse? Instead I think I clearly illustrated that Chuvalo was no closer to a DRAW in that fight than anyone else who fought Ali at that time. What do you call only one card giving Chuvalo as much as 3 rounds?


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Where did I make one excuse? Instead I think I clearly illustrated that Chuvalo was no closer to a DRAW in that fight than anyone else who fought Ali at that time. What do you call only one card giving Chuvalo as much as 3 rounds?


All fights have fouls in them, Ali would foul himself in fights. Many punches land behind the ear sometimes and things like this its still a scoring punch and many knock outs have been registered from punches behind the ear. Its the same thing with body punching. Chuvalo did lots of great body punching that fight and you should give him credit for it.

And its not fair to say that Chuvalo's punches were not effecting Ali. They did effect Ali a great deal who spent days in hospital after the fight.

We should give credit where credit is due. Chuvalo gave prime Ali his toughest fight and I think did enough to be close to a draw or maybe even a win, I will see how I score it this time. I think Chuvalo fought clean enough to score his body punches. And I don't think Ali acting like they were not bothering him much should effect how hard thudding body shots should be scored. They should be scored as more meaningful punches then some of Ali's jabs imo.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Rabbit punches and kidney punches are never a scoring punch.
Just like slaps shouldn't be scoring punches.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Rabbit punches and kidney punches are never a scoring punch.
> Just like slaps shouldn't be scoring punches.


Exactly. Neither are the numerous low blows he landed in the fight. Im glad the judges obviously knew their business...


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Rabbit punches and kidney punches are never a scoring punch.
> Just like slaps shouldn't be scoring punches.


They are often just scored and allowed because in the middle of the fight they are to hard to really enforce. It would take hours of video replay for judges to actually score a fight by only legal punches. Many times the punches land behind the ear or around towards the kidneys because the way the boxer getting hit is moving and its not really any fault of the boxer punching.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Ive always thought Chuvalo was overrated both as a fighter and for his toughness. Watching his fights Ive always felt like he was a guy who when he got tagged consistently and stopped really trying to win and simply came forward without doing much. Its a tactic that Purrity, Tua, and a lot of other supposed tough guys use. It gives the appearance of aggression but without them actually trying to win or leave openings. So I was watching Frazier-Chuvalo the other day and I was struck something. In this fight, because Chuvalo is able to occasionally land, he actually continues throwing punches while Frazier is tagging him. However, it leaves a lot of openings for Frazier which Smokin Joe takes advantage of. Very early Chuvalo is cut in at least two places. Finally Chuvalo turns his back and essentially quits after being tagged good by Frazier.* There is a photo of Chuvalo and Frazier in the ring after the fight and while Chuvalo's eye is swollen, its not swollen grotesquelly as weve seen happen when an orbital bone is shattered. *Chuvalo, who always had a ready excuse for every loss, has always claimed that his orbital bone was shattered and thats why he quit. Here is the interesting thing though: When I went back and looked at the reports and old newspaper coverage of the fight, there was no mention by Chuvalo or his people of any serious injury until a few days after the fight AFTER the reporters were calling him a quitter and saying that he should now retire. Chuvalo, when telling this story, always states that he won the first three rounds on the judges scorecards and that he was forced to retire because of this injury. Thats not true. I went back and looked at the cards and he did not win all three rounds. In fact I think only one judge had him winning one round. To me it now looks like Chuvalo was lured into a shootout with Frazier and took a hellacious amount of punishment very early (Frazier was fantastic both defensively and offensively in this fight) and quit rather than go six and half more rounds with a swollen, bloody face. Then, when there was a backlash from the press for him quitting the story of the eye was concocted and this morphed over time to make Chuvalo look like he was doing better than he actually was.


That was a pretty serious injury his eye ball was hanging out and was underneath the lower eye lid.


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## raskat (Oct 1, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Ive always thought Chuvalo was overrated both as a fighter and for his toughness. Watching his fights Ive always felt like he was a guy who when he got tagged consistently and stopped really trying to win and simply came forward without doing much. Its a tactic that Purrity, Tua, and a lot of other supposed tough guys use. It gives the appearance of aggression but without them actually trying to win or leave openings. So I was watching Frazier-Chuvalo the other day and I was struck something. In this fight, because Chuvalo is able to occasionally land, he actually continues throwing punches while Frazier is tagging him. However, it leaves a lot of openings for Frazier which Smokin Joe takes advantage of. Very early Chuvalo is cut in at least two places. Finally Chuvalo turns his back and essentially quits after being tagged good by Frazier. There is a photo of Chuvalo and Frazier in the ring after the fight and while Chuvalo's eye is swollen, its not swollen grotesquelly as weve seen happen when an orbital bone is shattered. Chuvalo, who always had a ready excuse for every loss, has always claimed that his orbital bone was shattered and thats why he quit. Here is the interesting thing though: When I went back and looked at the reports and old newspaper coverage of the fight, there was no mention by Chuvalo or his people of any serious injury until a few days after the fight AFTER the reporters were calling him a quitter and saying that he should now retire. Chuvalo, when telling this story, always states that he won the first three rounds on the judges scorecards and that he was forced to retire because of this injury. Thats not true. I went back and looked at the cards and he did not win all three rounds. In fact I think only one judge had him winning one round. To me it now looks like Chuvalo was lured into a shootout with Frazier and took a hellacious amount of punishment very early (Frazier was fantastic both defensively and offensively in this fight) and quit rather than go six and half more rounds with a swollen, bloody face. Then, when there was a backlash from the press for him quitting the story of the eye was concocted and this morphed over time to make Chuvalo look like he was doing better than he actually was.


I did hear an interview of Chuvalo a few years ago in which he said his eye was taken out of his "skull" by the surgeon to repair the damage after the Frazier fight. Horrible injury that must have been. I think I might have that interview somewhere.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

kenny black said:


> That was a pretty serious injury his eye ball was hanging out and was underneath the lower eye lid.


LoL this is exactly what Im talking about. You are looking at a photo where Chuvalo's eye is no more damaged than the average closed eye in boxing and you are trying to tell me his eye ball is hanging out and under the lower eyelid. Which it clearly isnt.


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## raskat (Oct 1, 2013)

Klompton said:


> LoL this is exactly what Im talking about. You are looking at a photo where Chuvalo's eye is no more damaged than the average closed eye in boxing and you are trying to tell me his eye ball is hanging out and under the lower eyelid. Which it clearly isnt.


Did you know that Leroy Jones suffered a detached retina against Larry Holmes?
Did you know Frank Bruno suffered a detached retina against Mike Tyson?
Eye injuries are often a lot worse than they look. Before you claim Chuvalo wasn't really tough, please do me a favor and get into a ring yourself and take a left hook. Doesn't have to be a left hook from Frazier, a left hook from a grandma will do. 
Not trying to be disrespectful but you are going too far here questioning a legit tough guy like Chuvalo. In boxing you don't earn a tough guy image for nothing.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

You dont know what ive done in my life so please dont pretend you do. A detached retina and a shattered orbital bone where your eye is hanging out of its socket are two entirely different injuries. They are so different that its not even comparing apples and oranges. Indeed, you are correct, a detached retina can go unnoticed (even by the victim of the injury, for a time) but dont pretend that proves Chuvalo's injury was legit. thats like saying you cant visibly detect a concusion so that proves that my arm was chopped off. ridiculous.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> LoL this is exactly what Im talking about. You are looking at a photo where Chuvalo's eye is no more damaged than the average closed eye in boxing and you are trying to tell me his eye ball is hanging out and under the lower eyelid. Which it clearly isnt.


Apparently the eye ball was hanging out of the socket, but this was underneath the skin. So it can not be seen. Its to bad because it was a amazing fight while it lasted and would have gone on to be a great fight.


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> I love body punching. Even if you count body shots as equal to head shots Chuvalo has no argument for being close to having fought Ali to a draw. He was outlanded in pretty much every round they fought and he wasn't breaking Ali down. No one else has every said those fights were close; I doubt Chuvalo thought they were close. He was simply outclassed.


have you actually sat and watched the fight without thinking "ohhhh its ALI!!!!"...its a close fight...


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Apparently the eye ball was hanging out of the socket, but this was underneath the skin. So it can not be seen. Its to bad because it was a amazing fight while it lasted and would have gone on to be a great fight.


Yeah, right... You can clearly see that the eyeball (which is nearly the size of a golf ball) is NOT hanging outside of the socket under the skin. How can anyone look at the photo and try to pass that turd off...

Johnstown, if its so close why did the AP say Chuvalo needed a KO by the 10th round to win. FIVE ROUNDS BEFORE THE END OF THE FIGHT. Why did the judges give Chuvalo only 3 rounds, 2 rounds, and 1 round? Nobody at the time was watching it and going "oooh its Ali" because Ali wasnt the popular figure at that point that he would later become. They watched it for what it was and it wasnt close. Ali controlled the fight, landed more blows, and did more damage. If Chuvalo wants to hang his hat on the idea that he had Ali pissing blood from illegal kidney punches and low blows (all of which are easily seen in the film) thats fine but those dont score points or win contests.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Johnstown said:


> have you actually sat and watched the fight without thinking "ohhhh its ALI!!!!"...its a close fight...


I'm surprised to see you say that. The second fight was much closer (and Ali still won that one clearly) but in the first fight the only rounds Chuvalo won were given away by Ali running around. He just outpunched him. You want to see a very close Ali fight look at Ali-Norton 2, that fight was close as teeth. I don't think I'm being biased here...


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## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

I am not a Ali fan but I can't say his fights with chuvalo were close on the scorecards both were very clear wins for Ali .


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Yeah, right... You can clearly see that the eyeball (which is nearly the size of a golf ball) is NOT hanging outside of the socket under the skin. How can anyone look at the photo and try to pass that turd off...


I have heard a few times over the years that Chuvalo's eye ball was knocked out of the socket by Frazier. Do you have some sort of inside information that this talk of Chuvalo's eye being out of the socket was lies? Maybe the orbital bone was broken to the point where the eye was hanging down below where it was suppose to be. Maybe it did not pop out of the socket but more just dropped lower where there was once soild orbital bone. I don't really know I am not a doctor and I doubt even a doctor can tell by pictures alone like you claim to be able to do.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

I can't find any record of Chuvalo's great domestic nemesis Bob Cleroux ever being decked either, and the Montrealer took two of three from the Torontonian.

For a quality HW chin, I believe Henry Clark gets overlooked far too much. He protested the stoppage of his match against Liston vehemently to referee Frank Carter, actually shoving and following Carter to plead his case. (I do agree that Liston-Clark should NOT have been halted at that point. Henry had just leaned away from a right uppercut before falling into a clinch. He knew exactly where he was, and what Sonny was doing. Yes, Clark was getting shut out, badly outgunned, stunned at that moment, and clearly wasn't going to win, but it didn't get halted after 46 unanswered punches like Ali-Lyle, and Clark was in far worse condition at the conclusion of Shavers II, when Earnie showed him what that healed right hand felt like after Paris. Norton proved Henry could be packed in when appropriate, between rounds nine and ten.) 

There were few noted bombers HW bombers Henry didn't compete against in his career, aside from Lyle and Foreman (and he WAS a primary sparring partner of George's for Kinshasa), plus, he even beat some of them, despite being not a particularly elusive target. Furthermore, his bouts usually went the ten or 12 round distance. Look at Clark's record. That's a hellish lineup of punchers who failed to floor him.

Who were the best punchers Chuvalo defeated? Who were the best punchers Clark defeated?


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

By the way, this is what poked out eyes look like:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ANtDOk6FCk

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAP7DTHWjJY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX_5zIXxKEU

www.youtube.com/watch?v=p485G5OCJVg

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZVGeTG2I7U

:eye


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmXL6-F3vZQ


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

This is not cartoons its real life just because something does not look bad does not mean its not a serious injury. This injury is mentioned in the first fight vs Ali and it is mentioned other times that his eye was out of the socket, I can't remember all the sources.

I will post an interview with Chuvalo and some other great heavyweights and he goes into some detail about the injury. He talks about his eye injury at the 40 min mark.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

kenny black said:


> This is not cartoons its real life just because something does not look bad does not mean its not a serious injury. This injury is mentioned in the first fight vs Ali and it is mentioned other times that his eye was out of the socket, I can't remember all the sources.
> 
> I will post an interview with Chuvalo and some other great heavyweights and he goes into some detail about the injury. He talks about his eye injury at the 40 min mark.


Uhhh, how could they have mentioned the injury in the first Ali fight which took place more than a year before the Frazier fight. Now your just talking out of your ass.

I know what George Chuvalo has been spouting for years. The guy has always had an excuse. He also said he won the first three rounds against Frazier. He did not. He was interviewed several times after the fight over the next couple of days and never said anything about a serious injury to his eye. He only came out with that story several days later after the press was calling him a quitter and telling him to retire.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Uhhh, how could they have mentioned the injury in the first Ali fight which took place more than a year before the Frazier fight. Now your just talking out of your ass.
> 
> I know what George Chuvalo has been spouting for years. The guy has always had an excuse. He also said he won the first three rounds against Frazier. He did not. He was interviewed several times after the fight over the next couple of days and never said anything about a serious injury to his eye. He only came out with that story several days later after the press was calling him a quitter and telling him to retire.


Lol, you must really have something against Chuvalo to think he would be telling lies like that.

I guess it must have been the second fight with Ali where mention of the surgery on his eye was mentioned.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

kenny black said:


> This is not cartoons it's real life


:rolleyes...says the guy with the Transformers avatar.:smile

Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, here's what Mark Kram wrote about Frazier-Chuvalo the following week for SI:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1080120/index.htm

Interview with the two of them a few decades later. (May be more important to interpret the nonverbal cues than what they're actually saying.)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOQkfwMkfM

George was out of commission for nearly a year after Frazier, but whatever injuries he sustained were obviously not career ending like the fractured orbital bone Billy Backus reportedly sustained from the Cuevas right. (Very smart blowout by Pipino incidentally, who shelved his vaunted hook in immediately winging massive right hand leads from the get-go. He did exactly what a slugger with huge power should do to a southpaw like that. As limited as Jose was, there have been some ATG WW southpaws who may not have come out very well against that particular performance by Cuevas, who looked far more comfortable right away with Backus than Conn did with Bettina, and Ali with Mildenberger.)


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Duo said:


> :rolleyes...says the guy with the Transformers avatar.:smile
> 
> Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, here's what Mark Kram wrote about Frazier-Chuvalo the following week for SI:
> 
> ...


This quote is telling, particularly in light of the flack he got in the press for quitting:

"Don't say that," said Chuvalo. "Please don't say that. I'm no trial horse. I'll never be a trial horse for anyone."

Chuvalo always had a higher opinion of himself than everyone else (an admirable quality for a fighter) but its clear here that his career was now exactly that of a gatekeeper and he wasnt ready to face that reality. Maybe the injury was legit, it certainly wasnt as bad as the legends about his eye hanging out etc. ridiculous but the stories changed so much within the hours and days after the fight that it seems suspect to me. First Chuvalo was just suffering dizziness, then it was a cut, then a burst blood vessel, then a cracked bone, then a shattered eye socket, then, ludicrously his eye was out of its socket and under the skin, then his eye was out. There was no talk of surgery or any of the serious injury stuff until days after the fight. Seems questionable to me. Particularly in light of the "I won every round" stories he tells now. He clearly didnt win every round and by every report he was perceived to be finished as anything other than a trial horse. He has spun this story so far from the facts its ridiculous. But like I said, Chuvalo had an excuse for every loss. Ive literally never heard him say "he was just the better man that night." The documentary of him The Last Round is chalk full of excuse after excuse for why he lost the fight and the lack of credit he gives his opponents is ridiculous.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Duo said:


> :rolleyes...says the guy with the Transformers avatar.:smile
> 
> Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, here's what Mark Kram wrote about Frazier-Chuvalo the following week for SI:
> 
> ...


That was a pretty good interview of Frazier with Chuvalo I have not seen many with the two of them together and you can see they are good friends. Chuvalo always says how well him and Frazier get along and how good of friends they are. Would have been a real war if Chuvalo did not have to take that fight with a damaged orbital bone sustained by a head butt in sparing.

Lol, that is not a transformer. I am 37 years old, but I just picked it for an avatar because It was something I liked when I was a kid.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

"I fought a bad fight. But I'd like to fight him again. It was just one of those nights."-George Chuvalo, after getting trashed by Buster Mathis. (He'd never get that chance, because of Jerry Quarry's career performance in dismantling the best Mathis to ever set foot in the ring.)

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:57400


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## GlazedDazedQuarry (Feb 12, 2014)

Duo said:


> "I fought a bad fight. But I'd like to fight him again. It was just one of those nights."-George Chuvalo, after getting trashed by Buster Mathis. (He'd never get that chance, because of Jerry Quarry's career performance in dismantling the best Mathis to ever set foot in the ring.)
> 
> http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:57400


Chuvalo launched one of the most extreme headbutts in history at Mathis in the first round. Wow...Mathis was like 'lets take the gloves off then mo' fo ' He lifted the referee out of the way!!


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Based on what Chuvalo said he didn't go to see the doctor until 3 or 4 days after the fight hence the delayed report of his fracture. From my understanding the fracture was very bad with his doctor saying he couldn't fight again. Just because he didn't swell doesn't mean anything when I broke my hand in sparring there was literally zero swelling and because of this my doctor said I had just sprained it until I got xrays revealing a very obvious fracture.

I watched Chuvalo's second fight with Ali not long ago and he gave a great account of himself, although I think his "toughness" might be a tad overrated due to him never being knocked down officially and events after boxing. I rate Marciano as being tougher because both before and during the fight he was willing to endure incredible amounts in order to win while as you said Chuvalo seemed at times content to just coast through the fight. It takes a hell of a lot more to try and win every minute of every round then to just be there taking punishment. 

In spite of all this Chuvalo is a tough SOB no question.


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## GlazedDazedQuarry (Feb 12, 2014)




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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Based on what Chuvalo said he didn't go to see the doctor until 3 or 4 days after the fight hence the delayed report of his fracture. From my understanding the fracture was very bad with his doctor saying he couldn't fight again. Just because he didn't swell doesn't mean anything when I broke my hand in sparring there was literally zero swelling and because of this my doctor said I had just sprained it until I got xrays revealing a very obvious fracture.
> 
> I watched Chuvalo's second fight with Ali not long ago and he gave a great account of himself, although I think his "toughness" might be a tad overrated due to him never being knocked down officially and events after boxing. I rate Marciano as being tougher because both before and during the fight he was willing to endure incredible amounts in order to win while as you said Chuvalo seemed at times content to just coast through the fight. It takes a hell of a lot more to try and win every minute of every round then to just be there taking punishment.
> 
> In spite of all this Chuvalo is a tough SOB no question.


I also believe his disclaimers that he was more subtly competent at defense than he's commonly credited for. His physical template closely parallels LaMotta's, and both have described how they'd move that visually imperceptible fraction of an inch to take to edge off a shot in much the same way. The extended lucidity and functionality of each man, decades beyond retirement from competition, may offer some self evident testimony to their claims. If his toughness was overrated, then perhaps Chuvalo's defense is indeed underrated, as he asserts.

He turned away from Frazier, but I do agree with him that he wasn't finished with Foreman when that one was stopped. Yes, he'd had his bell clearly rung, and the big guy was really knocking his head back with heavy jabs, but he also fired back a few times during that final assault (getting hit during one of those attempts-he was in a very appropriate defensive shell for most of that sequence), and was in the process of unloading a right when the referee stepped in. Seeing how Foreman was appearing to get arm weary towards the end of round four against Pires (as noted by Dunphy), I wonder if the American dodged a real bullet against the Canadian. Chuvalo's stamina and late round power are not among the things I doubt about him, and Foreman was hardly the endurance guy Frazier was. Foreman's jab was probably enough to carry him through if Chuvalo had been permitted to try weathering that third round storm, but we can only speculate. The concluding moments of Foreman-Pires make it intriguing to me, however. (And Foreman may have been far better served by the added experience developmentally.)

During his post fight interview following Foreman, Chuvalo didn't exactly sound like Starling after Molinares. Prior to getting his bell rung, he was standing his ground, making Foreman do all the moving, and that wasn't something the kid's body was geared for doing in a protracted bout. Foreman was working a lot harder than veteran Chuvalo when he unloaded that hook.

(Okay Klompt, have at me!:bbb)


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Chuvalo is the Tua breed of toughness, incredibly tough but not immune to pain.
A good Lewis right hand was all that was needed to tame Tua, Chuvalo was most likely the same that he wouldn't force the fight against a hard punching boxer and quite happy to be at the far end of a jab.

Iron chin is only useful if you use it.
Chuvalo did not always fully use it just like Tua didn't force a brawl against Chris Byrd. Punches still hurt no matter the chin even for McCall.

Guys like Frazier are the real tough guys, a man who truly comes forward at (almost) all times.
Tua, Chuvalo and McCall might have the chin edge, mentally they did not have even a quarter of Frazier's toughness.
In the end physical toughness is of little use if the mind can't take it anymore.

Chuvalo also always got nice things to say about himself, Ali and the hospital, "winning" the first 3 rounds against Frazier, "matching" Foreman in strength despite being ragdolled.
Watching the first round against Ali the first series of bodypunches he throws are all kidney punches, hospital had more to do with illegal punches than actual legal scoring bodywork.

Also I don't think Chuvalo would do very well in the modern boxing environment, he isn't very big for a modern HW and he's also slow as fuck size isn't deciding factor alone but if you have the size of a "small" man but the lack of speed of a big man it does get very hard.
Chuvalo was consistent as a gatekeeper, that's it.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Chuvalo is the Tua breed of toughness, incredibly tough but not immune to pain.
> A good Lewis right hand was all that was needed to tame Tua, Chuvalo was most likely the same that he wouldn't force the fight against a hard punching boxer and quite happy to be at the far end of a jab.
> 
> Iron chin is only useful if you use it.
> ...


This is basically exactly how I feel about Chuvalo. He was a guy who seemed content to revel in his reputation as a guy who was never knocked down and thus he wasnt so much trying to win fights but finish them. Guys like Frazier let it all hang out, walked through fire, and won. As you stated, guys like Tua, McCall, and Chuvalo are too content with being on the end of a jab when they realize early they cant win. To me that makes their toughness overrated because if they actually let it all hang out they likely would have been punished much more and stopped.


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## rockyssplitnose (Jun 7, 2012)

Pretty much in agreement with Klomp here - on top of what he has said just wanted to add that I just think that Chuvalo has developed a somewhat over blown status over the years because of the "he was never knocked down" thing, and also just being part of that supposedly greatest heavyweight era etc etc which seems to give anyone an automatic pass to greatness :lol:

George Chuvalo lost to veteran journeymen from the 50's like Howard King and Bob Baker, he could only draw with Alex Miteff, he even _lost_ to Rademacher (who by that point had already lost 4 of 10?!! He'd been,not once, but twice beaten by fellow Canadian Bob Cleroux, he even suffered the embarrassment of being disqualified against Bob Erskine!!?? He also got beat by Terrell who I think was pretty average and also got beat by Bonavena aswell - I don't really see _that many_ top level actual wins on his record to be honest and I don't get how he gets the title shot at Ali in 66 when he'd lost his last fight anyway? (To Eduardo Corletti!) and he'd lost 2 of his last 3? Very odd?? Yeah the guy could take his lumps but I just think everything and everyone that came into close contact with Ali/Frazier/Foreman and can make a claim gets an instant pass for some reason?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

The only reason he got the shot at Ali was because originally Terrell had been scheduled to face Ali and pulled out so they signed Chuvalo on short notice.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> The only reason he got the shot at Ali was because originally Terrell had been scheduled to face Ali and pulled out so they signed Chuvalo on short notice.


 Terrell also pulled out of a fight with Dejohn and Chuvalo took the fight with Dejohn and knocked him out twice. Chuvalo almost pulled out in the middle of that fight because he was not getting fair treatment . The winner of that fight was suppose to fight Ali, but Ali pulled out of that fight. When Chuvalo fought Terrell it was not a fair fight, if Chuvalo had of won that fight his manager would have ended up in the bottom of lake Ontario, Terrells manager threatened Chuvalos. Terrels manager tried the same thing with ALi's manager, but Ali's manager sicked the black muslims on him and that is why Terrell pulled out of the fight. Terrells manager was hospitlised and spent the rest of his days in a mental institution after threating Ali's manager. That is how Chuvalo got his shot at ALi.


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## rockyssplitnose (Jun 7, 2012)

Klompton said:


> The only reason he got the shot at Ali was because originally Terrell had been scheduled to face Ali and pulled out so they signed Chuvalo on short notice.


Thought it was for something like that - which does make it all the more hilarious that people use names such as Chuvalo's as evidence of how great that era was - when Chuvalo was just a short notice filler essentially??


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## rockyssplitnose (Jun 7, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Terrell also pulled out of a fight with Dejohn and Chuvalo took the fight with Dejohn and knocked him out twice. Chuvalo almost pulled out in the middle of that fight because he was not getting fair treatment . The winner of that fight was suppose to fight Ali, but Ali pulled out of that fight. When Chuvalo fought Terrell it was not a fair fight, if Chuvalo had of won that fight his manager would have ended up in the bottom of lake Ontario, Terrells manager threatened Chuvalos. Terrels manager tried the same thing with ALi's manager, but Ali's manager sicked the black muslims on him and that is why Terrell pulled out of the fight. Terrells manager was hospitlised and spent the rest of his days in a mental institution after threating Ali's manager. That is how Chuvalo got his shot at ALi.


Jesus!? That is MAD!!? So much for the Glory days of heavyweight boxing!!?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Terrell also pulled out of a fight with Dejohn and Chuvalo took the fight with Dejohn and knocked him out twice. Chuvalo almost pulled out in the middle of that fight because he was not getting fair treatment . The winner of that fight was suppose to fight Ali, but Ali pulled out of that fight. When Chuvalo fought Terrell it was not a fair fight, if Chuvalo had of won that fight his manager would have ended up in the bottom of lake Ontario, Terrells manager threatened Chuvalos. Terrels manager tried the same thing with ALi's manager, but Ali's manager sicked the black muslims on him and that is why Terrell pulled out of the fight. Terrells manager was hospitlised and spent the rest of his days in a mental institution after threating Ali's manager. That is how Chuvalo got his shot at ALi.


Your nuts. Chuvalo knocked DeJohn out twice? He knocked him DOWN twice, not out. Both times fouling him in the process. For someone who has such a low tolerance for "excuses" your post his chalk full of them. Id love to hear Chuvalo's excuse for getting completely outboxed by the fragile, mentally weak Rademacher who boasted a record of 7-3-1 and had been stopped in all of his losses. Chuvalo wasnt even Canada's best heavyweight. That was Bob Cleroux who was every bit as tough and strong as Chuvalo and proved it twice in the ring. He actually tossed Chuvalo to the mat like a rag doll with hand.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

rockyssplitnose said:


> Jesus!? That is MAD!!? So much for the Glory days of heavyweight boxing!!?


In this interview Chuvalo goes into further detail on all those things. There is a lot of corruption in boxing no doubt.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

kenny black said:


> In this interview Chuvalo goes into further detail on all those things. There is a lot of corruption in boxing no doubt.


You and Chuvalo have your facts wrong, as usual. Bernie Glickman was not beaten by the black muslims. He was beaten by Chicago mobster Felix Alderisio for threatening to PULL OUT of the Ali fight (when it was scheduled to be held in Chicago). It had nothing to do with the black muslims or Terrell's manager threatening Ali. The fight was called off in Chicago anyway. It was called off because Glickman went to the FBI after the beating which brought attention to the mob's involvement. Coming on the heals of the Jim Norris era and Liston's reign the fight was thrown out of Chicago and resulting controversy (along with the growing hubub around Ali's anti vietnam comments) resulted in Bob Arum trying to put the fight on in Canada. Terrell pulled out due to the controversy and Chuvalo was brought in on short notice. Chuvalo is full of shit.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> You and Chuvalo have your facts wrong, as usual. Bernie Glickman was not beaten by the black muslims. He was beaten by Chicago mobster Felix Alderisio for threatening to PULL OUT of the Ali fight (when it was scheduled to be held in Chicago). It had nothing to do with the black muslims or Terrell's manager threatening Ali. The fight was called off in Chicago anyway. Chuvalo is full of shit.


Lol, so I am suppose to believe you over George Chuvalo. George Chuvalo is a man with a lot of principles and has dedicated a large portion of his life to the fight against drugs. I don't know you from swiss cheese lol.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Lol, so I am suppose to believe you over George Chuvalo. George Chuvalo is a man with a lot of principles and has dedicated a large portion of his life to the fight against drugs. I don't know you from swiss cheese lol.


I really dont care who you believe. Chuvalo may have devoted a large portion of his life to fighting drugs but hes also devoted a large portion of his life to distorting the facts sorrounding his own story. Dont believe me? Fine, do a search on Bernie Glickman. I bet youd rather just watch George Chuvalo wax poetic about his career and masturbate to it...


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> I really dont care who you believe. Chuvalo may have devoted a large portion of his life to fighting drugs but hes also devoted a large portion of his life to distorting the facts sorrounding his own story. Dont believe me? Fine, do a search on Bernie Glickman. I bet youd rather just watch George Chuvalo wax poetic about his career and masturbate to it...


Well, It could be your sources of information are wrong. Chuvalo was in the middle of all these things happening more so then many other people, so his story on how things went down should hold as much weight or probably even more as anyone else's.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Chuvalo was in the middle of Bernie Glickman getting beaten? Whatever. This is coming from the guy who said they were talking about Chuvalos supposed eye injury against Frazier during the first Ali fight, which happened before the Frazier fight. 

My sources arent wrong because my sources are the newspapers of the day. It was a very famous occurence which resulted in an FBI investigation and Glickman testifying against Alderisio. It had absolutely nothing to do with the black Muslims. Your whole thesis is ridiculous anyway because you said that the Chuvalo Terrell fight wasnt fair. Chuvalo himself admits he never knew anything about Glickman SUPPOSEDLY threatening his manager until AFTER the fight. The fight was fought on its merits and Chuvalo lost easily. He suffered a battered nose and cuts that required ten stitches. He also, once again, fought dirty and was warned by the Canadian referee for headbutting after he cut Terrell's eye with one. The closest card of the three officials had Chuvalo down FIVE rounds. The others had him down 7 and 8. At best Chuvalo remembered that story from the newspapers and got mixed up about the facts, at worst he twisted the story to make himself look more sympathetic (which he does all the time). Like I said, if you dont believe me go look up the actual facts.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Chuvalo was in the middle of Bernie Glickman getting beaten? Whatever. This is coming from the guy who said they were talking about Chuvalos supposed eye injury against Frazier during the first Ali fight, which happened before the Frazier fight.
> 
> My sources arent wrong because my sources are the newspapers of the day. It was a very famous occurence which resulted in an FBI investigation and Glickman testifying against Alderisio. It had absolutely nothing to do with the black Muslims. Your whole thesis is ridiculous anyway because you said that the Chuvalo Terrell fight wasnt fair. Chuvalo himself admits he never knew anything about Glickman SUPPOSEDLY threatening his manager until AFTER the fight. The fight was fought on its merits and Chuvalo lost easily. He suffered a battered nose and cuts that required ten stitches. He also, once again, fought dirty and was warned by the Canadian referee for headbutting after he cut Terrell's eye with one. The closest card of the three officials had Chuvalo down FIVE rounds. The others had him down 7 and 8. At best Chuvalo remembered that story from the newspapers and got mixed up about the facts, at worst he twisted the story to make himself look more sympathetic (which he does all the time). Like I said, if you dont believe me go look up the actual facts.


The newspapers are still based on interviewing people for their information and those people that are being interviewed are not always telling the truth. There is lots of corruption and lies in the FBI and Mobs. I don't know why you are so quick to call Chuvalo a liar? That's twice now where you call Chuvalo's stories blatant lies. And not only that you question Chuvalo's toughness which is laughable. Why do you have a bone to pick with Chuvalo?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

So let me get this straight. You think somehow Chuvalo was privvy to secret information about Bernie Glickman getting beaten up by the black Muslims because he threatened Ali's manager and as a result Glickman was so scared of the muslims that he made the genius move of running to the FBI and blaming it all on the Chicago mafia... because having the muslims mad at him wasnt enough, he wanted to get both the FBI and the Mafia on his ass as well... Yeah right. That sounds plausible in light of the fact that Chuvalo is the ONLY person who ever told his version of events while Mafia historians and the newspapers of the day reported mine. And, who is the one person that comes out looking like the sympathetic figure in Chuvalo's story: Chuvalo. And you have to ask what my problem is with the guy? I would say Chuvalo is akin to guys like Buster Douglas or Oliver McCall going around today and claiming that all of their losses were somebody elses fault and that they could really beat anyone on any given night had the cards not been stacked against them. The problem with that analogy is that Douglas and McCall actually both became champions and did so beating all time great fighters. Chuvalo never even came close. Instead hes a journeyman who continually inflates his own story and makes up lies to make himself look better when in reality he often struggled with even C class fighters of his era. He literally made a career out of the idea that he was never knocked off his feet (Something Bonavena would dispute) which is a hollow "victory" to say the least. As for his toughness, I stated my case. How tough is a guy who is content to simply finish the fight without letting it all hang out? If he was so tough, and so hard punching, how on earth could not beat Floyd Patterson and Jimmy Ellis? Two smallish fighters who were not overly strong or durable and surely made to order for a rugged, hard punching heavyweight. Ellis was even ended that fight backing Chuvalo into a corner and beating the holy hell out of him.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Klompton said:


> So let me get this straight. You think somehow Chuvalo was privvy to secret information about Bernie Glickman getting beaten up by the black Muslims because he threatened Ali's manager and as a result Glickman was so scared of the muslims that he made the genius move of running to the FBI and blaming it all on the Chicago mafia... because having the muslims mad at him wasnt enough, he wanted to get both the FBI and the Mafia on his ass as well... Yeah right. That sounds plausible in light of the fact that Chuvalo is the ONLY person who ever told his version of events while Mafia historians and the newspapers of the day reported mine. And, who is the one person that comes out looking like the sympathetic figure in Chuvalo's story: Chuvalo. And you have to ask what my problem is with the guy? I would say Chuvalo is akin to guys like Buster Douglas or Oliver McCall going around today and claiming that all of their losses were somebody elses fault and that they could really beat anyone on any given night had the cards not been stacked against them. The problem with that analogy is that Douglas and McCall actually both became champions and did so beating all time great fighters. Chuvalo never even came close. Instead hes a journeyman who continually inflates his own story and makes up lies to make himself look better when in reality he often struggled with even C class fighters of his era. He literally made a career out of the idea that he was never knocked off his feet (Something Bonavena would dispute) which is a hollow "victory" to say the least. As for his toughness, I stated my case. How tough is a guy who is content to simply finish the fight without letting it all hang out? If he was so tough, and so hard punching, how on earth could not beat Floyd Patterson and Jimmy Ellis? Two smallish fighters who were not overly strong or durable and surely made to order for a rugged, hard punching heavyweight. Ellis was even ended that fight backing Chuvalo into a corner and beating the holy hell out of him.


 The FBI was probably more concerned about the Mafia then the black muslims and would have more of an interest in pinning things on the Chicago mafia, I don't know. There are millions of reasons why the Mafia took the heat for it instead of the Muslims. I am not an expert on what happened. I just find it disrespectful of you to call Chuvalo a liar when you don't know the truth either.

Chuvalo gave the greatest of all times who was in his prime his toughest fight and almost won, this version of Ali was better then the one Frazier fought. You can't fight Ali the way Chuvalo did without trying to win. You think he did not take chances in that fight to win? I don't really want to pick on fighters like you are with Chuvalo. I am not going to pick on Mccal and Douglas to make Chuvalo look better I don't think I have pick on other boxers to build up Chuvalo.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

The bottom line is you are CHOOSING to believe a ridiculous story that makes no sense from a self serving guy because you obviously idolize him. Chuvalo did not give Ali his toughest fight. And he didnt come close to winning in any way shape or form. Anyone who makes these two statements illustrates perfectly why they would believe Chuvalos moronic stories.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

I disagree with you how close that fight was, obviously you are swayed by Ali's flashiness or maybe the commentating. Chuvalo out fought Ali many of the rounds, much more then 3 rounds. You are welcome to debate me on some of the rounds that I score on the other thread.

And after the long lay off when he was visibly slower he had some tough fights, but during Ali's prime Chuvalo gave him the worst beating and Ali has said so much himself.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Did you hear that Aliens used a mind control ray on Chuvalo to make him headbutt Erskine after he became frustrated by his ineffectiveness? Its true George told me so. He also added that when he fights special rules should apply that allow him to headbutt, low blow, elbow, push, hit on the break, rabbit punch, hit after the bell, hit a fighter while hes down, and throw kidney punches. These are all legal, scoring tactics when Chuvalo fights. He also said he won every round of his first fight with Ali and knocked him out in the second but clever television editing here in the United States made it look like Ali took two easy decisions. He also said that when he turned away after winning the first three rounds against Frazier it was just a tactic to confuse Joe and gain the upper hand. When he lost to George Foreman he was really winning that fight handily because his plan all along had been to let George hit him in the face until Foreman collapsed, he just forget to let the referee in on the plan and thus his success was misconstrued as failure. Chuvalo really deserved to win the fight with Eduardo Corletti because Corletti cheated by avoiding all of Chuvalo's punches, not standing still to let Chuvalo hit him in the face, and by landing his own punches. Its a little known fact that Chuvalo was robbed against Oscar Bonavena. The officials were against him from the start. They tried to make it look like they were friendly to him by not ruling two knockdowns against him but they really were biased in favor of Bonavena. Rademacher, Terrell, Folley, and McMurtry should have lost against Chuvalo also. After all, jabs dont really count and any fighter who get repeatedly jabbed in the face round after round after round after round after round after round without scoring points deserves to win some kind of prize right?

:rolleyes


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Ha ha, maybe there is a chance you will start using your own eyes and see that it was actually a close fight one day. Chuvalo slugged him hard to the body all night long with hard THUDDING shots. You can really hear these body shots they were brutal. And can see how hurt Ali is by the look on his face with many shots to the body he is a good actor, but not that good lol. He landed 40 punches to the body in the first round alone! Many of Ali's jabs were pitty pat jabs and a lot of them were parried, but the comentators did not notice or did not want to notice and said that Ali was really hitting Chuvalo. Some of the rounds Chuvalo literally parried almost every jab and they were eye blink fast parries, Chuvalo was very adept at that.

I have things to do for a few hours and one day you should rewatch some of the fight with an open mind. Because you are missing things if you think Ali dominated the fight.


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