# Sugar ray leanard vs floyd mayweather jr



## BIG_BAD_CHICANO_623 (Jan 28, 2014)

On the real who would really win ? Leanard threw punches in bunches everytime he was quick and had good defense and he would rush you and beat you till you got knocked out or took a ass whooping. Mayweather never gets hit hes slick and quick but dont throw many punches and has never faught and never will fight someone like sugar ray. What you guys really think ? I heard people say may and some say sugar, and they all made good points.

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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Leonard was a natural Welter and top 3 h2h at Welter.
Floyd was best at 130 and arguably h2h nr1 at 130.
p4p pretty equal (slight edge to Sugar maybe)

Leonard got the size advantage and has no stylistic weakness against Floyd.
Mayweather would never win this matchup.

Better question would what is the worst version of Leonard that loses to Floyd


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Mayweather has a much better chance than people admit. Leonard would lead and give Mayweather openings. Leonard's combination punching would go out the window too.


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## BIG_BAD_CHICANO_623 (Jan 28, 2014)

Yea leonard was bigger than floyd. And in my eyes quicker. I think leonard would of missed alot of punches no doubt mayweathers defense is off the charts but he would definitely caught him and hurt him. Mayweather would have caught leonard a few times to but I dont think he could of hurt leonard.

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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Mayweather's been in the ring with boxers no where near the skill and athleticism of a prime Leonard. Floyd doesn't like pressure and he doesn't throw enough to beat Leonard. Floyd doesn't have the power or foot work to keep Leonard off him. He would be up against the ropes a lot in this fight, eating shots as well as making Leonard miss with dat shoulder roll.
Floyd just doesn't have the offensive skill or balls to mix it with Leonard and his defence would only last so long before he starts getting busted up by the stronger, quicker, more skilled, harder hitting, more mobile SRL.
Floyd would have some success landing Flush pot shots centre of the ring and countering against the ropes but that's not enough to beat Leonard. Leonard can beat him inside or outside, is more dynamic and ticks more boxes. Leonard late stoppage imo.


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

How people boldly predict Leonard would stop Floyd I don't know


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## BIG_BAD_CHICANO_623 (Jan 28, 2014)

Yea when floyd rushed is the only time he had problems cuz hes to quick to smart to try to box but sugar had the speed and power to beat floyd 

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## Bill Butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> Mayweather has a much better chance than people admit. Leonard would lead and give Mayweather openings. Leonard's combination punching would go out the window too.


Floyd has a chance for success in spells but he has no realistic chance to win the fight vs the bigger and IMO better p4p Leonard.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Yeah, Floyd counters him every now and then but SRL would control most of the fight and knock him out late. It would be like the Benitez fight with SRL struggling at first with Floyd's defense, and then eventually taking over. SRL would show Floyd different styles and would have a chess match with Floyd on even terms, something alot of opponents couldn't do. Once he had Floyd hurt he would finish the job no doubt. This is one of the best finishers of the sport. I would expect Floyd to win some rounds here with his eye catching quality counterpunches but Floyd would take the W eventually.

Here's a few relevent videos:


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## BIG_BAD_CHICANO_623 (Jan 28, 2014)

Yea I seen the first two videos but that last video change my view of things on them fighting mayweather always leads with the right hand and its quick even when he misses he keeps throwing that right straight cuz he eventually catches his opponents and leonard leaves his left hand down alot. And money may dnt hit the hardest but all it takes is one shot for instance look how he kept catching hatton and eventually hatton kept getting hit over and over and then got k.o in the later rounds. But sugar ray hit harder than hatton and was much quicker. Mayweather always seems to catch his opponents with that right staright thoe eventually.

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## BIG_BAD_CHICANO_623 (Jan 28, 2014)

Hattons nowhere near leonard jst using it as an example cuz mayweather threw straight rights from round one till he k.od him 

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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Gunner said:


> How people boldly predict Leonard would stop Floyd I don't know


Are you a bit simple?


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## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

one of the reasons floyd is so effective vs boxers is that he makes his opponent affraid to move their hands.
srl isn't gonna do that so i'd think he'd be a few rounds up by the 12th, and sweep the championship rounds.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

kf3 said:


> one of the reasons floyd is so effective vs boxers is that he makes his opponent affraid to move their hands.
> srl isn't gonna do that so i'd think he'd be a few rounds up by the 12th, and sweep the championship rounds.


Leonard was actually really good at throwing caution to the wind and putting punches together when stifled by boxers, sich as when Hearns was outboxing him or Kalule was puzzling him.

If 154 Floyd fought Kalule he'd lose IMO


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## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Leonard was actually really good at throwing caution to the wind and putting punches together when stifled by boxers, sich as when Hearns was outboxing him or Kalule was puzzling him.
> 
> If 154 Floyd fought Kalule he'd lose IMO


that was what i meant to convey, srl wont loose in the way the better boxers who floyd has faced did.

kalule would be a lot closer of a fight than leonard imo, but i didn't watch one of his winning performances for a while so maybe i'm being a bit unfair there


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Are you a bit simple?


Yeah mate, because that's an appropriate response to a fairly reasonable post. If I don't brainlessley think Floyd gets stopped I'm simple :-(

Floyd has very good defence, amazing reflexes and superlative survival skills aswell as superb conditioning and good footwork.

Flatly stating that he'd defacto be stopped is absurd. He is a very very skilled fighter and has shown nothing in his 45odd fights that indicates he is stopped by anything but a monster one-punch KO

He see's shots so well and is able to pick them off with his shell...so he can shell up and get outpointed, or take a lot more shots than usual and lose

But to just flat out say he'd get stopped as if he has some non-existant defence, reflexes, OR survival skills, OR recovery ability


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## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

just watched most of kalule kalambay, actually fuck yeah he beats 154 floyd


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Gunner said:


> Yeah mate, because that's an appropriate response to a fairly reasonable post. If I don't brainlessley think Floyd gets stopped I'm simple :-(
> 
> Floyd has very good defence, amazing reflexes and superlative survival skills aswell as superb conditioning and good footwork.
> 
> ...


He has fought no one remotely as skilled or offensively capable as Ray Leonard to assume his defence would look aa impeccable.

Apart from a faded Shane Mosley who hurt him very hard with one shot. And his left hook was more his most devastating punch.

Floyds defence would not be suited to deal with Rays output.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

kf3 said:


> just watched most of kalule kalambay, actually fuck yeah he beats 154 floyd


Kalule was a bit past his best there, and Sumbu (a more cultured mover and jabber than Floyd incidentally) a bit before his prime.

Watch Kalule Vs Leonard; a losing performance, but shows what it took to beat him at his absolute best.


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> He has fought no one remotely as skilled or offensively capable as Ray Leonard to assume his defence would look aa impeccable.
> 
> Apart from a faded Shane Mosley who hurt him very hard with one shot. And his left hook was more his most devastating punch.
> 
> Floyds defence would not be suited to deal with Rays output.


Who said it would look impeccable vs Leonard? Do you think it either has to be perfect OR it's a KO?

Look, Sugar vs Floyd Snr. was not a total wipeout, and though Floyd is much smaller, he is also much better, don't just chalk this up as a black & white stoppage, that's ridiculous


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Kalule was a bit past his best there, and Sumbu (a more cultured mover and jabber than Floyd incidentally) a bit before his prime.
> 
> Watch Kalule Vs Leonard; a losing performance, but shows what it took to beat him at his absolute best.


I've said nowhere in this thread that Floyd beats him


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Gunner said:


> I've said nowhere in this thread that Floyd beats him


I was talking to someone else.

And yes, I think Floyd would fold if he takes the kinda shellacking that Leonard would give him. Different levels of fighter.


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I was talking to someone else.


Well you could have made it more obvious than you know, directly quoting the person and replying to what they mentioned. :bart


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Gunner said:


> Well you could have made it more obvious than you know, directly quoting the person and replying to what they mentioned. :bart


Well yeah, I didn't quote you in the Kalule-Kalambay post, but you did quote my post on the same subject. So need for folded arms emoticon sonny.


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Well yeah, I didn't quote you in the Kalule-Kalambay post, but you did quote my post on the same subject. So need for folded arms emoticon sonny.


My failed humor strikes again


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Gunner said:


> How people boldly predict Leonard would stop Floyd I don't know


Leonards just a whole different animal to anybody Floyd's faced. I think SRL would eventually get to Floyd and stop him. Floyds great at negating against a certain level of fighter but there's past greats that would be too strong, mobile and skilled for him to deal with. Leonard, Duran and Napoles spring to mind. These guy's just wouldnt respect Floyd at all. He doesnt have the power and his work rate is too low.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> *Mayweather has a much better chance than people admit*. Leonard would lead and give Mayweather openings. Leonard's combination punching would go out the window too.


this , but still i pick leonard


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Gunner said:


> Yeah mate, because that's an appropriate response to a fairly reasonable post. If I don't brainlessley think Floyd gets stopped I'm simple :-(
> 
> Floyd has very good defence, amazing reflexes and superlative survival skills aswell as superb conditioning and good footwork.
> 
> ...


It's more reasonable to say he gets stopped then it is to say Floyd would win. Floyd's never seen this offensive arsenal before.


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

It might be a bit unfair or at least highly contestable to say that Leonard stops him in a P4P fight, but straight up at welter or 154? not so much, though i expect Mayweather would go into survival mode and see the fight out.If he tries to trade and generate the sort of offence that would be needed to outland leonard at ring-centre he's in for a tough night, as nothing he throws would bother Leonard in the slightest and he's slower of hand and foot at these weights. once Ray realises that(which would be pretty quick)....out come the heavy combos, especially those brutal left hooks to the body Ray could dig in.Awfully tough to play a cute punchpicking fight with those size and physical disadvantages and actually do enough to win at the same time.

I'm sure Floyd could make Leonard look bad for stretches if he uses his legs a lot early and mid rounds, but this is a fight where i'd be very shocked if it was tough in the end for Ray.Floyd's weights as a head to head beast are 130 and 135(though the castillo fights were both a let down in that regard for him, and a real chance to dominate a very good but not special fighter that he didn't quite take as i think he should have, hand injury or not)


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Even the second Castillo fight convinces me that Carlos Ortiz would've beaten Floyd.


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> It's more reasonable to say he gets stopped then it is to say Floyd would win. Floyd's never seen this offensive arsenal before.


I don't recall saying that ever, though.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Even the second Castillo fight convinces me that Carlos Ortiz would've beaten Floyd.


This is very plausible if Floyd breaks both of his hands in the first round.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Gunner said:


> I don't recall saying that ever, though.


You're acting like it's so crazy to say Floyd would get stopped by Leonard. Actually it's the most reasonable outcome.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> This is very plausible if Floyd breaks both of his hands in the first round.


How does this make sense?

Floyd was injured in the first Castillo fight.

Ortiz is far better than Castillo.

Floyd has never beaten anyone the technical level of a prime Carlos Ortiz.

Ortiz-Laguna III shows Ortiz had the technical chops to give Floyd serious hassle. Floyd would have to box on the backfoot as good as Laguna did in the first fight, when Ortiz was ill, in order to win.

It's possible, but in a one off hypothetical fight I'd favour Ortiz to one up Castillo. Floyd didn't look very good in the rematch with Castillo, he was over negative.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> How does this make sense?
> 
> Floyd was injured in the first Castillo fight.
> 
> ...


Why does Floyd get held to this kind of standard? It's like his career is defined negatively by a close win and (rarely) a not so close win over a very good lightweight champion. How many loses does Ortiz have to lesser fighters than Floyd? How many wins does he have over fighters better than Floyd? How many wins does Floyd have over fighters better than Castillo? How many loses does Floyd have? It's a stretch to ignore results that much because you can picture something in your head.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I don't see Floyd getting stopped by anyone at welter unless he's caught by a perfect shot.

Leonard UD but Floyd takes some rounds obviously.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

leonard takes this


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> Why does Floyd get held to this kind of standard? It's like his career is defined negatively by a close win and (rarely) a not so close win over a very good lightweight champion. How many loses does Ortiz have to lesser fighters than Floyd? How many wins does he have over fighters better than Floyd? How many wins does Floyd have over fighters better than Castillo? How many loses does Floyd have? It's a stretch to ignore results that much because you can picture something in your head.


I think Castillo, at that point, was the best fighter Floyd has beaten. No one else Floyd has faced since was as good as lightweight titlist JLC IMO.

Ortiz was likely robbed against Locche, beat Laguna twice, and an old Bones Brown. That gives him a good base for taking on a stylist of Floyds skills.

And on film he is clearly a cut above Castillo. He can pressure in the same way but has a better jab and is a smarter fighter.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Castillo is one of the best Floyd faced around his best weight, absolutely no doubt about it.

Brown is one of the best outfighters in LW history, if you can cut the ring off against him you can cut it off against anyone.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I think Castillo, at that point, was the best fighter Floyd has beaten. No one else Floyd has faced since was as good as lightweight titlist JLC IMO.
> 
> Ortiz was likely robbed against Locche, beat Laguna twice, and an old Bones Brown. That gives him a good base for taking on a stylist of Floyds skills.
> 
> And on film he is clearly a cut above Castillo. He can pressure in the same way but has a better jab and is a smarter fighter.


Saying Castillo was the best lightweight titlist Floyd faced narrows it down a lot. That's like saying Floyd was slightly better than Stevie Johnston. I'm looking at whole picture. If you don't look at how well he did in the first fight with Floyd, he really doesn't stand out as the best fighter Floyd faced. He's maybe top 5, maybe top 10. I think 130 Corrales was a better win for Floyd prior to that fight (who knocked out Castillo), and Hatton went on to massacre Castillo.

Who's to say Ortiz wouldn't end up like Marquez against Floyd? Marquez was more technically sound than Castillo too. It's not like Ortiz had blinding handspeed.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> Who's to say Ortiz wouldn't end up like Marquez against Floyd? Marquez was more technically sound than Castillo too.


The difference is Ortiz wasn't nearly as bad at leading as Marquez is.

Who is worse than Castillo at pressuring his man despite all of his combination punching prowess.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> Saying Castillo was the best lightweight titlist Floyd faced narrows it down a lot. That's like saying Floyd was slightly better than Stevie Johnston. I'm looking at whole picture. If you don't look at how well he did in the first fight with Floyd, he really doesn't stand out as the best fighter Floyd faced. He's maybe top 5, maybe top 10. I think 130 Corrales was a better win for Floyd prior to that fight (who knocked out Castillo), and Hatton went on to massacre Castillo.
> 
> Who's to say Ortiz wouldn't end up like Marquez against Floyd? Marquez was more technically sound than Castillo too. It's not like Ortiz had blinding handspeed.


What a weird thing to say. Marquez can't fight off the front foot for shit and Ortiz was as adept at pressuring his man as he was working off his jab.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> What a weird thing to say. Marquez can't fight off the front foot for shit and Ortiz was as adept at pressuring his man as he was working off his jab.


So do you want Shane, Cotto, Canelo, Hatton, Oscar or someone else then? They could fight moving forward and had technical skill.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> So do you want Shane, Cotto, Canelo, Hatton, Oscar or someone else then? They could fight moving forward and had technical skill.


Cotto is the best shout out of all of those and he gave Floyd real hassle.

Prime Ortiz is better than Cotto.

Mosley was past his best and hurt Floyd badly, although Ortiz didn't have that kinda handspeed he had a proven 15 round gas tank.

Hatton was not capable of making mid fight adjustments. He either came out boxing or came out mauling.

Oscar stifled Floyds workrate but didn't look anywhere near as good as he looked in his prime.

Bringing Canelo into it is beyond hilarious.

Maybe we just have different standards. How much of Ortiz have you seen? Or Laguna? Or Brown? Floyd would be one of the best in those eras (Browns prime came a little before Ortiz and Lagunas) but he would definitely pick up losses along the way.

And I think Ortiz would be the one to hand him a loss. The film shows he is that good an operator, and more well-rounded than anyone Floyd has ever faced. While Ortiz hasn't faced anyone with Floyds blend of skills he's faced others that match him in certain areas. I would say Laguna was a more cultured mover though.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Ortiz was also an undersized midget compared to these men. Current 130 pounders are his size. That has to count for something.


Flea Man said:


> Cotto is the best shout out of all of those and he gave Floyd real hassle.
> 
> Prime Ortiz is better than Cotto.
> 
> ...


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> Ortiz was also an undersized midget compared to these men. Current 130 pounders are his size. That has to count for something.


Floyd ain't that big though.

Weight cutting is detrimental to skill level anyways. Floyd has shown that.

It would take skills to beat him, not just size. Ortiz was not a small lightweight, he was a solid ten stone fighter. Immensely skilled and smart as well.

Is there anyone you'd pick to beat Floyd at 135? Or are you of the mindset that as you've never seen him lose you can't envision it?


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I think Castillo, at that point, was the best fighter Floyd has beaten. No one else Floyd has faced since was as good as lightweight titlist JLC IMO.
> 
> Ortiz was likely robbed against Locche, beat Laguna twice, and an old Bones Brown. That gives him a good base for taking on a stylist of Floyds skills.
> 
> And on film he is clearly a cut above Castillo. He can pressure in the same way but has a better jab and is a smarter fighter.


Ortiz isn't quite as good at pressuring as Castillo though, which he would have to do and opens him up to making mistakes. Loche/Laguna/Brown aren't nearly as complete as Floyd. Loche and Laguna were too 1 handed. Laguna was too easy to hit. Brown is probably the most comparable but he didn't have the same level of athleticism, speed, stamina, strength or infighting for my money by any means. He was 35 and looked tired at times against Ortiz.

You could certainly argue Ortiz is more complete than Floyd's opposition, you could say the same of Marquez neither really have the style to trouble him. Floyd's too fast and too good inside for Ortiz. If you want to say Honeyghan



Luf said:


> Castillo is one of the best Floyd faced around his best weight, absolutely no doubt about it.
> 
> Brown is one of the best outfighters in LW history, if you can cut the ring off against him you can cut it off against anyone.


A great win but you maybe able to cut the ring off but Floyd's counter punching, defense and solid infighting could make that irrelevant before he turns again and your back outside.


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

Castillo wasn't anything special at pressuring, he just came forward in slow straight lines with little creativity in his outside punchpicking.It was when he had you in the phone booth with him he was a good fighter as he could use his strength and good up close punching technique\variety.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Ortiz isn't quite as good at pressuring as Castillo though, which he would have to do and opens him up to making mistakes. Loche/Laguna/Brown aren't nearly as complete as Floyd. Loche and Laguna were too 1 handed. Laguna was too easy to hit. Brown is probably the most comparable but he didn't have the same level of athleticism, speed, stamina, strength or infighting for my money by any means. He was 35 and looked tired at times against Ortiz.
> 
> You could certainly argue Ortiz is more complete than Floyd's opposition, you could say the same of Marquez neither really have the style to trouble him. Floyd's too fast and too good inside for Ortiz. If you want to say Honeyghan
> 
> A great win but you maybe able to cut the ring off but Floyd's counter punching, defense and solid infighting could make that irrelevant before he turns again and your back outside.


Your argument falls down with Marquez. I can't take anything you say seriously now.

Watch Laguna Vs Mando Ramos and tell me he's too one handed (could be hit, I'll give you that)


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm on the very verge of becoming a Pactard (50% to piss off his fans, 50% because I just can't be a fan of Floyd. I liked PBF, not this Floyd). I don't really like the guy outside of the ring. Especially with his 'What has Africa done for me?' rationale recently. If he picks Maidana for the fight, I will trash Floyd.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I'm on the very verge of becoming a Pactard (50% to piss off his fans, 50% because I just can't be a fan of Floyd. I liked PBF, not this Floyd). I don't really like the guy outside of the ring. Especially with his 'What has Africa done for me?' rationale recently. If he picks Maidana for the fight, I will trash Floyd.


Going off recent performances Maidana us a better fight than Khan.

Stylistically neither of them bring anything to the table against Floyd but Maidana has been more active, looked better in his last win (against superior opposition to Amir) and unless brings gameness and heavy hands.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Going off recent performances Maidana us a better fight than Khan.
> 
> Stylistically neither of them bring anything to the table against Floyd but Maidana has been more active, looked better in his last win (against superior opposition to Amir) and unless brings gameness and heavy hands.


Khan has performed very shit of late. But still, Julio Diaz is such a difficult opponent for Amir, a difficult style and good power. Julio was also coming off a draw against Shawn Porter (a fight which I cbf watching). 
I don't rate Broner. Diaz based on his style and experience is far more dangerous than Broner against Maidana. Broner just stands there, passive as fuck with no power. He's Malignaggi tier.

Maidana is also your bog-standard slow plodding B graded fighter and we already know Mayweather can deal with punchers on elite level like Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, Cotto, Mosley etc. Maidana can't outbox Alexander having been shutout by him recently 100-90, just imagine the boredom of this fight? Maidana's dumbass does not even allow him to have a punchers chance.

Khan will most probably get KFTO but it will be entertaining before hand owing to Khan's style which could cause Mayweather initial problems. Khan is also finding it too difficult at 140lbs and feels weak there.

I want GGG to come down and prove himself as top dog at 154lbs, he at least has a 'punchers chance' and is a very skillful opponent.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Carlos Ortiz > Jose Luis Castillo definitely.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Khan has performed very shit of late. But still, Julio Diaz is such a difficult opponent for Amir, a difficult style and good power. Julio was also coming off a draw against Shawn Porter (a fight which I cbf watching).
> I don't rate Broner. Diaz based on his style and experience is far more dangerous than Broner against Maidana. Broner just stands there, passive as fuck with no power. He's Malignaggi tier.
> 
> Maidana is also your bog-standard slow plodding B graded fighter and we already know Mayweather can deal with punchers on elite level like Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, Cotto, Mosley etc. Maidana can't outbox Alexander having been shutout by him recently 100-90, just imagine the boredom of this fight? Maidana's dumbass does not even allow him to have a punchers chance.
> ...


Do not agree. He was.always been run of the mill and extremely vulnerable. Well past his best and out of his best weight.

Julio Diaz was a gimme and Amir looked like shit for most of the fight.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Your argument falls down with Marquez. I can't take anything you say seriously now.
> 
> Watch Laguna Vs Mando Ramos and tell me he's too one handed (could be hit, I'll give you that)


You have been absolutely butchered in this thread, Flea. Sit down now.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> You have been absolutely butchered in this thread, Flea. Sit down now.


Excuse me? You have got to be joking?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Especially considering you probably haven't seen any of the fighters I'm referencing anyway.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I want GGG to come down and prove himself as top dog at 154lbs, he at least has a 'punchers chance' and is a very skillful opponent.


As possible as Ward moving up in weight to challenge Wlad.

Maidana/Khan - both are equally bad fights.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> As possible as Ward moving up in weight to challenge Wlad.
> 
> Maidana/Khan - both are equally bad fights.


Maidana better than Khan though. Coming off a more relevant win and more active in the last year.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Maidana better than Khan though. Coming off a more relevant win and more active in the last year.


True.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Your argument falls down with Marquez. I can't take anything you say seriously now.
> 
> Watch Laguna Vs Mando Ramos and tell me he's too one handed (could be hit, I'll give you that)


You know I'm right Flea  And I didn't say anything about Ortiz being similar to Marquez, I said Marquez is arguably the most complete on Floyd's record.



Flea Man said:


> *Going off recent performances Maidana us a better fight than Khan.
> *
> Stylistically neither of them bring anything to the table against Floyd but Maidana has been more active, looked better in his last win (against superior opposition to Amir) and unless brings gameness and heavy hands.


Going off who'd actually make it a good fight, Khan would. Maidana got shut out by Alexander, how's he any challenge, I don't think I'd even bother with a stream for that one. Khan has an elite jab, speed, workrate and his high guard at his best gives little away, while Floyd hasn't got any dig. A shame it is then that he has the brain of a gold fish. He could still win some rounds off Floyd though.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> You know I'm right Flea  And I didn't say anything about Ortiz being similar to Marquez, I said Marquez is arguably the most complete on Floyd's record.
> 
> Going off who'd actually make it a good fight, Khan would. Maidana got shut out by Alexander, how's he any challenge, I don't think I'd even bother with a stream for that one. Khan has an elite jab, speed, workrate and his high guard at his best gives little away, while Floyd hasn't got any dig. A shame it is then that he has the brain of a gold fish. He could still win some rounds off Floyd though.


Khan's jab is not elite. He has fast hands but his punching technique is generally woeful. He has no fight IQ. His defence is as porous as Maidana's and he has no clue what kinda' fighter he is. Maidana at least knows what he's doing, and he's improved since the Khan fight whereas Amir has regressed and unter Hunter looks a fighter finished at the top level.

Maidana looked woeful against Alexander but that's more relevant than looking wank against Julio Diaz. As I've said already both shit opponents for Floyd, Maidana more interesting though.

And if Marquez is the most complete on Floyd's record that says more about Floyd's opposition than the completeness of Marquez. There is no way Marquez is a more complete fighter than Ortiz.


----------



## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> And if Marquez is the most complete on Floyd's record that says more about Floyd's opposition than the completeness of Marquez. There is no way Marquez is a more complete fighter than Ortiz.


I don't know about that, but I do know that Ortiz didn't move up in weight in his mid thirties and arguably beat the pfp number 1 and then knock him out cold a year later.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> I don't know about that, but I do know that Ortiz didn't move up in weight in his mid thirties and arguably beat the pfp number 1 and then knock him out cold a year later.


Yeah, you don't know, and the second part is irrelevant to this discussion, so stop talking. This debate is way out of your capabilities son.


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## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

I can see floyd v ortiz being close(and ortiz sitting him down would not be a huge suprise) but i cant go so far to pick ortiz outright, floyd's adaptibility should help him win the later rounds. 

i'm equally vaguely interested in a maidana fight or a khan fight tbh, neither will win but i never even watched gurero.
the best fight that might happen would be a cotto rematch imo, not that that was a specially close fight.


----------



## Bill Butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

kf3 said:


> I can see floyd v ortiz being close(and ortiz sitting him down would not be a huge suprise) but i cant go so far to pick ortiz outright, floyd's adaptibility should help him win the later rounds.
> 
> i'm equally vaguely interested in a maidana fight or a khan fight tbh, neither will win but i never even watched gurero.
> the best fight that might happen would be a cotto rematch imo, not that that was a specially close fight.


The best fight for the fans style wise is Pacquiao but Floyd doesn't fancy that task for whatever reason.


----------



## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

Bill Butcher said:


> The best fight for the fans style wise is Pacquiao but Floyd doesn't fancy that task for whatever reason.


yeah, i gave up on that fight so long ago i didn't think to include it. It seems that just as big a barrier these days is arum keeping everything in house, certainly i don't blame floyd like i did 5 years ago.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

kf3 said:


> I can see floyd v ortiz being close(and ortiz sitting him down would not be a huge suprise) but i cant go so far to pick ortiz outright, floyd's adaptibility should help him win the later rounds.
> 
> i'm equally vaguely interested in a maidana fight or a khan fight tbh, neither will win but i never even watched gurero.
> the best fight that might happen would be a cotto rematch imo, not that that was a specially close fight.


What about Ortiz's adaptability? Floyd has never had to make adjustments against an opponent of Ortiz's ability


----------



## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, you don't know, and the second part is irrelevant to this discussion, so stop talking. This debate is way out of your capabilities son.


Still as modest as ever flea but at least there is no swearing as there would of been a few years back


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Yiddle said:


> Still as modest as ever flea but at least there is no swearing as there would of been a few years back


I take it you didn't see his post to me a few pages back?

But @NoNeck is alright, I don't dislike him...on my part it's just banter, and I think it is on his side too.


----------



## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I take it you didn't see his post to me a few pages back?
> 
> But @NoNeck is alright, I don't dislike him...on my part it's just banter, and I think it is on his side too.


No sorry I didn't that will teach me . I just read your post and thought to myself two or three years ago there would of been a few swear words sprinkled in amongst your words .


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Yiddle said:


> No sorry I didn't that will teach me . I just read your post and thought to myself two or three years ago there would of been a few swear words sprinkled in amongst your words .


Swearing didn't mean I was any more angry or passionate though....I swear all the time except when I'm in the office....no biggie for me, but maybe that's my generation


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## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> What about Ortiz's adaptability? Floyd has never had to make adjustments against an opponent of Ortiz's ability


i'm not sure ortiz had quite the ring smarts of floyd, but its certainly a factor, floyd hasn't fought someone who could come to terms with his handspeed and accuracy, but it doesn't mean ortiz couldn't

very true, so much is unknown about floyds limits imo, partly because he has rarely been pushed, and partly the fighters who troubled him early got discouraged from their plans. Judah and mosley hit him clean early, but couldn't either capitalise, or do it again later. certainly he didn't shine against oscar (who,as with many floyd opponents, didn't fight a great fight either), but floyd was still able to do things(jabbing the body) that put oscar off his plan.

if i was putting £ down i'd take either man as the underdog, ortiz has more experience at the level, which is important to me, but floyd holds a couple physical advantages.


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## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Swearing didn't mean I was any more angry or passionate though....I swear all the time except when I'm in the office....no biggie for me, but maybe that's my generation


Generally flea since I first saw your posts in ESB you have toned down quite a bit and it for me has made you a much better poster . This is just a personal observation flea don't take it as a slight in any way as I hope you know by now I very rarely insult others especially in classic or historical forums .


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

kf3 said:


> i'm not sure ortiz had quite the ring smarts of floyd, but its certainly a factor, floyd hasn't fought someone who could come to terms with his handspeed and accuracy, but it doesn't mean ortiz couldn't
> 
> very true, so much is unknown about floyds limits imo, partly because he has rarely been pushed, and partly the fighters who troubled him early got discouraged from their plans. Judah and mosley hit him clean early, but couldn't either capitalise, or do it again later. certainly he didn't shine against oscar (who,as with many floyd opponents, didn't fight a great fight either), but floyd was still able to do things(jabbing the body) that put oscar off his plan.
> 
> if i was putting £ down i'd take either man as the underdog, ortiz has more experience at the level, which is important to me, but floyd holds a couple physical advantages.


If you haven't already I highly recommend the 3rd Ortiz-Laguna fight. Incredible aggressive counter punching display.

For me, Floyd's adaptability is overrated; he's mainly fought pretty basic, straight-on guys.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Yiddle said:


> Generally flea since I first saw your posts in ESB you have toned down quite a bit and it for me has made you a much better poster . This is just a personal observation flea don't take it as a slight in any way as I hope you know by now I very rarely insult others especially in classic or historical forums .


Thank you. Everyone hates me so a compliment is much appreciated :good


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Thank you. *Everyone hates me* so a compliment is much appreciated :good


:lol:

Nonsense. You rate the Marcel and Kalule wins (for Duran and Leonard respectively) too highly for that to be in the realm of possibility. That's not all, of course. :yep


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> Nonsense. You rate the Marcel and Kalule wins (for Duran and Leonard respectively) too highly for that to be in the realm of possibility. That's not all, of course. :yep




Everyone thinks I'm a biased curmodgeon, despite always supporting my arguments.

Love you mayne.


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## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> If you haven't already I highly recommend the 3rd Ortiz-Laguna fight. Incredible aggressive counter punching display.
> 
> For me, Floyd's adaptability is overrated; he's mainly fought pretty basic, straight-on guys.


there is only the first available atm, since it has laguna i might well have seen it, but i don't like commenting on the basis of memories that might not be real.

i could agree that i overate floyds ability to adapt mid fight, like i said before it is hard to know where his ceiling is.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

kf3 said:


> there is only the first available atm, since it has laguna i might well have seen it, but i don't like commenting on the basis of memories that might not be real.
> 
> i could agree that i overate floyds ability to adapt mid fight, like i said before it is hard to know where his ceiling is.


On youtube? Yeah it was me that uploaded it.

Dunno whether you spend on fights but I would highly recommend getting the 3rd fight. My copy has seen better days so I won't be uploading it.


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## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> On youtube? Yeah it was me that uploaded it.
> 
> Dunno whether you spend on fights but I would highly recommend getting the 3rd fight. My copy has seen better days so I won't be uploading it.


some of the fights on your channel have a criminally low number of views, including laguna ortiz 1.

i try not to collect any media tbh, ive got thousands of pounds of 90's hip hop gathering dust in storage because its all on youtube and i don't use a ipod or anything, but there will probably come a time when ive seen all the boxing on youtube and will have to.

edit - i 4got books count as media


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

kf3 said:


> some of the fights on your channel have a criminally low number of views, including laguna ortiz 1.
> 
> i try not to collect any media tbh, ive got thousands of pounds of 90's hip hop gathering dust in storage because its all on youtube and i don't use a ipod or anything, but there will probably come a time when ive seen all the boxing on youtube and will have to.


Yeah it's a shame, I just want the fighters to get their dues from the fans!


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Thank you. Everyone hates me so a compliment is much appreciated :good


Maybe if you called them after they've enjoyed some tea and biscuits with you instead of WAITING A WHOLE WEEK, people might share the love you are so incapable of expressing!


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

On topic I've seen Ortiz-Laguna 1 (thanks Flea) and Ortiz-Laguna 3 (thanks ESPN classic) but not 2. Weird.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

I've watched a good few fights on Flea's youtube channel. Not as much as I should though. I spend more time arguing about boxing than I do watching it. It's becoming a bad habit of mine.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> On topic I've seen Ortiz-Laguna 1 (thanks Flea) and Ortiz-Laguna 3 (thanks ESPN classic) but not 2. Weird.


Is that because 2 isn't available? 'Cause I don't have it (and I have most stuff worth having)


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

rossco said:


> I've watched a good few fights on Flea's youtube channel. Not as much as I should though. I spend more time arguing about boxing than I do watching it. It's becoming a bad habit of mine.


I don't watch as much now I've stopped smoking skunk. I read more though. Just not much about boxing. Weird novels mostly.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Is that because 2 isn't available? 'Cause I don't have it (and I have most stuff worth having)


I've seen a couple of rounds on the tube so i'm sure it's out there?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> I've seen a couple of rounds on the tube so i'm sure it's out there?


I'll look into it today and if it's out there I'll get it and put it out.

You will get from me in the next week or so:

Packey McFarland Vs Mike Gibbons (highlights)
Saldivar Vs Legra (Highlights) and Famechon (full fight) Rojas (full fight)
Jimmy Wilde Vs Joe Symonds (12 minutes including knockout)
Canto Vs Furesawa
Frankie Genaro Vs Spider Pladner (hardly any good and 'foul' cut out but worth a watch)
Sugar Ramos Vs Floyd Robertson (extremely controversial decision)

And a few more!

All courtesy of the main man RB :good


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I'll look into it today and if it's out there I'll get it and put it out.
> 
> You will get from me in the next week or so:
> 
> ...




Be careful with Canto uploads though - they might close your account - Canto is considered a video nasty in most countries.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Be careful with Canto uploads though - they might close your account - Canto is considered a video nasty in most countries.


I have a load of Gavilan ready to upload as well...just need to find the time.


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## DharmaBum (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I'll look into it today and if it's out there I'll get it and put it out.
> 
> You will get from me in the next week or so:
> 
> ...


:yikes You're the GOD of all diminutive bouncy things. Um... any chance you could reup that Gibbons-O'Dowd too at some point?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

DharmaBum said:


> :yikes You're the GOD of all diminutive bouncy things. Um... any chance you could reup that Gibbons-O'Dowd too at some point?


I will old friend!

Who did you used to be?


----------



## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I'll look into it today and if it's out there I'll get it and put it out.
> 
> You will get from me in the next week or so:
> 
> ...


:merchantAwesome

Found a thread on BN24 from 2010 where My2Sense posted O'Dowd knocking out MCCoy on youtube. You ever come across that footage?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> :merchantAwesome
> 
> Found a thread on BN24 from 2010 where My2Sense posted O'Dowd knocking out MCCoy on youtube. You ever come across that footage?


I thought it wasn't available, but @Klompton posted screenshots in his Greb book, so maybe it is. I enquired about it recently (to someone else) to no avail, but have looked for it.


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## DharmaBum (Jun 5, 2013)

That'd be awesome man. Thanx a lot. WhyYouLittle on BN24.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I don't watch as much now I've stopped smoking skunk. I read more though. Just not much about boxing. Weird novels mostly.


I've probably been reading more about boxing. I've got a Greb book on the way and I've just finished reading 'Hands Of Stone' for the second time. I stopped the heavy drinking through the week on doctors orders so I seem to have more braincells to read books nowadays. When I was buzzed all I wanted to do was watch fights or argue with people on boxing forums. 
The last novels I read were two old horror books I got for xmas. 'Who Goes There' and 'I Am Legend'. Any advice on a good boxing book mate? I bet there's a thread on this somewhere.


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## DharmaBum (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I don't watch as much now I've stopped smoking skunk.


Scored a lot of fights? Must have made some pretty interesting cards.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

DharmaBum said:


> Scored a lot of fights? Must have made some pretty interesting cards.


Yeah, though I was more into analysing the fights I watched. A few on here, plenty on ESB. The what fights did you watch today thread on there should be read from end to end IMO, so much interesting stuff in there.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I'll look into it today and if it's out there I'll get it and put it out.
> 
> You will get from me in the next week or so:
> 
> ...


I drooled a little. We all appreciate it good sir.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> I drooled a little. We all appreciate it good sir.


No worries, I appreciate having like minded people to discuss these guys with.

I've been sitting on a fair amount of Pascual Perez for a while as well.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> No worries, I appreciate having like minded people to discuss these guys with.
> 
> I've been sitting on a fair amount of Pascual Perez for a while as well.


There's a guy i never had a real feel for. How does he look?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> There's a guy i never had a real feel for. How does he look?


He's one of those short and broad shouldered stocky little Argies with really good head and upper body movement, but his legs are very quick and he moves around in a trot, a bit like a horse. A lefty, but he did a fair bit of switch hitting.

Not many straight punches in sight, big hooks and uppercuts though. A more than respectable puncher, I'd certainly give him a good shot at sparking all but the most nails of midgets.

You not seen him spark Dai Dower? Probably on youtube. Dower was a bit susceptible in the chin department but was an Olympian and a top European fly. Perez did a Julian Jackson on him.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd has not fought a Sugar Ray Leonard, and Ray fought guys as good as Floyd and beaten them like Duran and Hearns and Benitez. I think Ray wins via 12 round decision. I don't think he stops Floyd, but he beats him UD.


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Massive admirer of Mayweather here, I rate him very highly and sing his praises basically whenever he is brought up

I don't think he has any chance what so ever in this fight, I see nothing at all to lead me to believe that Mayweather is going to offer something that can enable him to defeat a prime Ray Leonard, nothing at all


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## Sweet Pea (Jun 22, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> He's one of those short and broad shouldered stocky little Argies with really good head and upper body movement, but his legs are very quick and he moves around in a trot, a bit like a horse. A lefty, but he did a fair bit of switch hitting.
> 
> Not many straight punches in sight, big hooks and uppercuts though. A more than respectable puncher, I'd certainly give him a good shot at sparking all but the most nails of midgets.
> 
> You not seen him spark Dai Dower? Probably on youtube. Dower was a bit susceptible in the chin department but was an Olympian and a top European fly. Perez did a Julian Jackson on him.


I'll appreciate that footage as well, Flea. Perez has never really impressed me from the (admittedly) miniscule footage I've seen of him.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Sweet Pea said:


> I'll appreciate that footage as well, Flea. Perez has never really impressed me from the (admittedly) miniscule footage I've seen of him.


I know what I'm doing tomorrow then :good


----------



## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Teeto said:


> Massive admirer of Mayweather here, I rate him very highly and sing his praises basically whenever he is brought up
> 
> I don't think he has any chance what so ever in this fight, I see nothing at all to lead me to believe that Mayweather is going to offer something that can enable him to defeat a prime Ray Leonard, nothing at all


Teeto, a completely honest man you are! A post like this has more credence and weight than the usual reply....and I say this admittedly as and anti-Mayweather, pro-SRL guy.


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Phantom said:


> Teeto, a completely honest man you are! A post like this has more credence and weight than the usual reply....and I say this admittedly as and anti-Mayweather, pro-SRL guy.


:cheers


----------



## Bill Butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

Teeto said:


> Massive admirer of Mayweather here, I rate him very highly and sing his praises basically whenever he is brought up
> 
> I don't think he has any chance what so ever in this fight, I see nothing at all to lead me to believe that Mayweather is going to offer something that can enable him to defeat a prime Ray Leonard, nothing at all


Yep, agreed.

I don't like the guy too much but I`m honest in my judgement and I class Mayweather as the best boxer since Pernell Whitaker, but there is no way on earth I can see him beating Sugar Ray Leonard. I`d bet everything I own on a Leonard victory... I wouldn't be confident picking a points or stoppage though, either of those are very possible.

If Floyd tries too hard to win, he gets stopped.... if he tries to fight too defensively, he loses a wide UD.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Floyd would beat Morales but not Leonard.


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Bill Butcher said:


> Yep, agreed.
> 
> I don't like the guy too much but I`m honest in my judgement and I class Mayweather as the best boxer since Pernell Whitaker, but there is no way on earth I can see him beating Sugar Ray Leonard. I`d bet everything I own on a Leonard victory... I wouldn't be confident picking a points or stoppage though, either of those are very possible.
> 
> If Floyd tries too hard to win, he gets stopped.... if he tries to fight too defensively, he loses a wide UD.


:good

yeah it's weird for me because while I haven't seen any evidence from watching Floyd's career that he may get stopped by anyone, I still entertain the thought that Leonard doing it is possible, with the natural size advantage and all that quality in the fire power Ray comes with.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Teeto said:


> :good
> 
> yeah it's weird for me because while I haven't seen any evidence from watching Floyd's career that he may get stopped by anyone, I still entertain the thought that Leonard doing it is possible, with the natural size advantage and all that quality in the fire power Ray comes with.


Don't you think Shane hurting him means a fresher fighter who could pull the trigger might be able to keep that up and get the job done? I know Floyd made the correct adjustments there and stayed on his feet but is it not out of the question that a better fighter than Shane was at that time might be able to finish the job?


----------



## Bill Butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

Luf said:


> Floyd would beat Morales but not Leonard.


Yep, Leonard is too big and too good, Floyd is too big


----------



## Bill Butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Don't you think Shane hurting him means a fresher fighter who could pull the trigger might be able to keep that up and get the job done? I know Floyd made the correct adjustments there and stayed on his feet but is it not out of the question that a better fighter than Shane was at that time might be able to finish the job?


Of course Leonard could better what Mosely did in that exact situation, being bigger, better, carrying more power and being a deadlier finisher... but that exact situation is unlikely vs Leonard, or even vs Mosely in another 10 fights. Whether that happened or not vs Mosely doesn't sway me either way on the possibility of a Leonard TKO/KO win. It all comes down to how Floyd approaches the fight IMO.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bill Butcher said:


> Of course Leonard could better what Mosely did in that exact situation, being bigger, better, carrying more power and being a deadlier finisher... but that exact situation is unlikely vs Leonard, or even vs Mosely in another 10 fights. Whether that happened or not vs Mosely doesn't sway me either way on the possibility of a Leonard TKO/KO win. It all comes down to how Floyd approaches the fight IMO.


So it wasn't the quick left/feint to the body that set up the right habd? Or Floyd allowed Shane to set him up?

Or no one else would be able to set Floyd up?


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Don't you think Shane hurting him means a fresher fighter who could pull the trigger might be able to keep that up and get the job done? I know Floyd made the correct adjustments there and stayed on his feet but is it not out of the question that a better fighter than Shane was at that time might be able to finish the job?


In the grand scheme of assessing the potential for a stoppage loss to be incurred I think what happened against Shane is pretty minor to be honest. I'ts basically one punch over a whole career to judge Floyd's susceptibility to being stopped, and it didn't even come close. Shane was past prime, which I factor into my analysis, and I also factor in that he was completely tied up and rendered incapable to capitalise due to it. I think the evidence we have as to what Floyd did do in said event is far more telling than what Shane may have done if he were younger, therefore in the context of judging Floyd's susceptibility to a stoppage I lean in favour of him when looking at the Shane incident.

It's definitely not out of the question though, of course not. I just personally don't conclude that I've seen any evidence that Mayweather will be KO'd by other great fighters, unless there's a serious disadvantage in natural size, which as I say, is the reason a part of my mind entertains the thought that Leonard may be able to do it.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Teeto said:


> In the grand scheme of assessing the potential for a stoppage loss to be incurred I think what happened against Shane is pretty minor to be honest. I'ts basically one punch over a whole career to judge Floyd's susceptibility to being stopped, and it didn't even come close. Shane was past prime, which I factor into my analysis, and I also factor in that he was completely tied up and rendered incapable to capitalise due to it. I think the evidence we have as to what Floyd did do in said event is far more telling than what Shane may have done if he were younger, therefore in the context of judging Floyd's susceptibility to a stoppage I lean in favour of him when looking at the Shane incident.
> 
> It's definitely not out of the question though, of course not. I just personally don't conclude that I've seen any evidence that Mayweather will be KO'd by other great fighters, unless there's a serious disadvantage in natural size, which as I say, is the reason a part of my mind entertains the thought that Leonard may be able to do it.


This is all fair.

Obviously Hearns would waste Floyd, but that's not saying much.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I think if Floyd is to be stopped, it would be the way Benitez was stopped, accumulation from a mega skilled attacking force. So it isn't beyond the realms of possibility, I just think Floyd is more likely to finish on his feet.

I think Hearns takes a wide UD as well tbh. In fact I see Leonard more likely to stop Floyd than Hearns if I'm being honest.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> I think Hearns takes a wide UD as well tbh. In fact I see Leonard more likely to stop Floyd than Hearns if I'm being honest.


Weird.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Weird.


I think Hearns - Benitez is a good indicator of how the fight plays out between hearns and Floyd. Floyd never getting past the jab and ending up in his shell the whole fight.

Then again, I dont know enough about Floyd's mentality. If he is losing a clear decision maybe he would rather go out on his shield in which case I expect hearns to stop him.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> I think Hearns - Benitez is a good indicator of how the fight plays out between hearns and Floyd. Floyd never getting past the jab and ending up in his shell the whole fight.
> 
> Then again, I dont know enough about Floyd's mentality. If he is losing a clear decision maybe he would rather go out on his shield in which case I expect hearns to stop him.


Hearns had a damaged hand there IIRC.

What about at welter?


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Hearns had a damaged hand there IIRC.
> 
> What about at welter?


didn't know about the hand injury tbh.

i dont think the result is any different if it's at 147 or 154 tbh. If anything i think hearns was better at lmw as he didn't have to cut as much weight.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> didn't know about the hand injury tbh.
> 
> i dont think the result is any different if it's at 147 or 154 tbh. If anything i think hearns was better at lmw as he didn't have to cut as much weight.


I agree with the latter but was just trying to give an example of where he was guaranteed to be aggressive.

Benitez and Floyd's defensive styles are not that similar. Hearns will put Floyd out without much hassle IMO. Especially once he realises Floyd has nothing offensive for him. He'd just batter him, and if Floyd goes into a shell he'd still get pasted.

EDIT: This is not a knock on Floyd at all.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I agree with the latter but was just trying to give an example of where he was guaranteed to be aggressive.
> 
> Benitez and Floyd's defensive styles are not that similar. Hearns will put Floyd out without much hassle IMO. Especially once he realises Floyd has nothing offensive for him. He'd just batter him, and if Floyd goes into a shell he'd still get pasted.
> 
> EDIT: This is not a knock on Floyd at all.


I agree they aren't that similar, I think Benitez was quicker in both hand and foot but I think Floyd was tighter and had a better ring IQ.

Basically if Floyd goes into a safety first shell I don't see him being stopped by a straight punching power house like hearns. A non stop attack like Leonard could do the job though imo.

There is always the chance of Hearns landing a ko bomb of course but I don't see it a probably unless Floyd opens up, which I don't see happening. Like I said before though, if he's willing to come out swinging once he's down, then Hearns takes him out.


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> This is all fair.
> 
> Obviously Hearns would waste Floyd, but that's not saying much.


Yeah I agree. It would be just too much.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> I agree they aren't that similar, I think Benitez was quicker in both hand and foot but I think Floyd was tighter and had a better ring IQ.
> 
> Basically if Floyd goes into a safety first shell I don't see him being stopped by a straight punching power house like hearns. A non stop attack like Leonard could do the job though imo.
> 
> There is always the chance of Hearns landing a ko bomb of course but I don't see it a probably unless Floyd opens up, which I don't see happening. Like I said before though, if he's willing to come out swinging once he's down, then Hearns takes him out.


If he goes into a safety first shell then Hearns has an even better chance of KOing him. Too much artillery coming his way, and its not like Floyd would survive the whole fight & not get hit clean eventually


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> If he goes into a safety first shell then Hearns has an even better chance of KOing him. Too much artillery coming his way, and its not like Floyd would survive the whole fight & not get hit clean eventually


I disagree. If Floyd covers up I think he can last the whole fight without being hit cleanly. It's not like Hearns will be able to use angles and throw shots Floyd doesn't see coming.

Floyd v Duran - Duran points
Floyd v Leonard - Leonard too
Floyd v Hearns - Hearns points
Floyd v Hagler - Hagler ko

I think Floyd is a tremendous talent but he isn't on the level of the fab 4 for me.

Robinson
Whittaker
Jones
Armstrong
Duran
Leonard
Pep
Napoles
Ali
Chavez
Jofre
Hagler
Hearns
Louis
Langford

That's my top 15 I reckon. Floyd might make the next section but it's more likely some guys I've forgotten about.


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

fast straight punches like Hearns throws are the best way to break through a great defensive fighter though..

awkward punches from weird angles etc is usually more of a boxer-puncher weakness and often recipe for getting schooled against a relaxed defensive master.

I don't really see Floyd having the reflexes to avoid Hearns for a full 12 or 15 at these weights, that would be more likely in a p4p fight. he was getting lit up early by the speed and straight shots of Zab Judah and even old Mosley landed a few bombs on him.Hearns speed of punching was on a different level to those guys and he always threw the kitchen sink at you if you couldn't keep him off.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> I disagree. If Floyd covers up I think he can last the whole fight without being hit cleanly. It's not like Hearns will be able to use angles and throw shots Floyd doesn't see coming.
> 
> Floyd v Duran - Duran points
> Floyd v Leonard - Leonard too
> ...


Floyd would never fight Hagler, lets get that clear.

And lesser men then Hearns have been able to hit Floyd cleanly, men that don't throw punches together like hearns & men that don't have Hearns' accuracy or sharpness. It's silly to say that Floyd would last the whole fight not getting hit cleanly by a sharpshooter like Hearns. Fuck that.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Bill Jincock said:


> fast straight punches like Hearns throws are the best way to break through a great defensive fighter though..
> 
> awkward punches from weird angles etc is usually more of a boxer-puncher weakness and often recipe for getting schooled against a relaxed defensive master.
> 
> I don't really see Floyd having the reflexes to avoid Hearns for a full 12 or 15 at these weights, that would be more likely in a p4p fight. he was getting lit up early by the speed and straight shots of Zab Judah and even old Mosley landed a few bombs on him.Hearns speed of punching was on a different level to those guys and he always threw the kitchen sink at you if you couldn't keep him off.


hearns will break through, I expect him to win every round.

I don't expect him to land a clean enough punch to knock out Floyd though, not unless Floyd opens up.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> I disagree. If Floyd covers up I think he can last the whole fight without being hit cleanly.


Sorry Luf but this is pretty hilarious.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Floyd would never fight Hagler, lets get that clear.
> 
> And lesser men then Hearns have been able to hit Floyd cleanly, men that don't throw punches together like hearns & men that don't have Hearns' accuracy or sharpness. It's silly to say that Floyd would last the whole fight not getting hit cleanly by a sharpshooter like Hearns. Fuck that.


obviously he'll never fight Hagler, Hagler is retired.

I think it's silly to say Floyd will get knocked out by hearns but that's the beauty of the sport - it's subjective and what one man sees another doesn't and vice versa. One of the reasons I love this sport.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Sorry Luf but this is pretty hilarious.


I know right :lol:


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> obviously he'll never fight Hagler, Hagler is retired.
> 
> I think it's silly to say Floyd will get knocked out by hearns but that's the beauty of the sport - it's subjective and what one man sees another doesn't and vice versa. One of the reasons I love this sport.


Floyd TECHNICALLY wouldn't fight Hagler if he was around in that era though; don't think it's possible for Floyd to move up to 160, and Hagler wouldn't let Floyd fuck him with his catchweights.

Like I said, lesser man than Floyd have landed cleanly on him when he just shells up so why wouldn't Hearns be able to? Floyd would certainly try to do something offensively and Hearns would find him.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Floyd TECHNICALLY wouldn't fight Hagler if he was around in that era though; don't think it's possible for Floyd to move up to 160, and Hagler wouldn't let Floyd fuck him with his catchweights.
> 
> Like I said, lesser man than Floyd have landed cleanly on him when he just shells up so why wouldn't Hearns be able to? Floyd would certainly try to do something offensively and Hearns would find him.


I actually don't think Floyd fighting Hagler is that unreasonable. Flpyd wouldn't be outgunned size wise, and he has the skills to make it competitive.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Floyd TECHNICALLY wouldn't fight Hagler if he was around in that era though; don't think it's possible for Floyd to move up to 160, and Hagler wouldn't let Floyd fuck him with his catchweights.
> 
> Like I said, lesser man than Floyd have landed cleanly on him when he just shells up so why wouldn't Hearns be able to? Floyd would certainly try to do something offensively and Hearns would find him.


we'll never know but I would be surprised if he made the jump to mw as he hasn't done it in his real career.

because Floyd has made mistakes against lesser fighters, if he's intent in surviving he won't be making mistakes. I agree that us he tries to be offensive the chances of him getting stopped increase.

I still see Leonard as the more likely to score a stoppage win.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I actually don't think Floyd fighting Hagler is that unreasonable. Floyd wouldn't be outgunned size wise, and he has the skills to make it competitive.


What weight would they fight at though?


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I actually don't think Floyd fighting Hagler is that unreasonable. Flpyd wouldn't be outgunned size wise, and he has the skills to make it competitive.


Yea, stylistically I think it really favours Mayweather, enough to be able to have a decent chance to upset the mw.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Yea, stylistically I think it really favours Mayweather, enough to be able to have a decent chance to upset the mw.


Couldn't disagree more with that


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

For those totally discounting Floyd's chances against Hagler: In what ways isn't Floyd superior to an old, fat Duran?


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

I don't think he'd be superior in any way at 160 tbh, he certainly didn't look any better at 154 and it's not as if Duran came close to beating Hagler.he just succeeding in making him look bad at times.

Mayweather might well succeed at that too.It's not as Hagler was an unflappable ring-general.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

As for PBF vs SRL, I'd favour Leonard but not as comfortably for most here. I think PBF is better than Benitez in just about every aspect, so I think he'd push him more than Benitez did.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

Bill Jincock said:


> I don't think he'd be superior in any way at 160 tbh, he certainly didn't look any better at 154 and it's not as if Duran came close to beating Hagler.he just succeeding in making him look bad at times.
> 
> Mayweather might well succeed at that too.It's not as Hagler was an unflappable ring-general.


Hasn't Floyd looked better than the Duran that lost to Laing and Hearns? For me Floyd is faster, fitter, more skilled and probably stronger than the Duran that lost to Hagler. His right lead is clearly better (the best I've ever seen), so I think that could give Hagler quite a bit of of trouble.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bokaj said:


> For those totally discounting Floyd's chances against Hagler: In what ways isn't Floyd superior to an old, fat Duran?


Harsh appraisal of Duran. Floyd would beat Laing but I'm not sure he'd beat Davey Moore. Duran hit harder as well.

Duran is more complete. And Marv seemed to coast in that bout because he knew he could. Duran's feints are better than Floyds also.

Anyway, I meant that Floyd at 150 would not necessarily lose to Hagler just because of size. He would lose handily though.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> What weight would they fight at though?


Floyd has beaten guys who weigh 160 or more. Plenty of fighters have beaten fully fledged middleweights weighing in at around 150.

Hagler would beat Floyd but Marv wasn't a massive middleweight and the size wouldn't be an issue. He'd be too much because of his skill level.

I'm very much of the opinion that Floyd is very skilled but that so have many other fighters been and Floyd only appears on such a level because he hasn't fought many fighters that are particularly skilled.

Not saying he couldn't beat great fighters but he wouldn't be white washing them as he does to most of his opponents now.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Harsh appraisal of Duran. Floyd would beat Laing but I'm not sure he'd beat Davey Moore. Duran hit harder as well.
> 
> Duran is more complete. And Marv seemed to coast in that bout because he knew he could. Duran's feints are better than Floyds also.
> 
> Anyway, I meant that Floyd at 150 would not necessarily lose to Hagler just because of size. He would lose handily though.


While I it seems quite reasonably to favour not only Hagler but also Leonard over PBF, I think this is Classic at it's most cringe worthy when it comes to underestimating a modern fighter. Won't waste my time arguing that current Floyd is better than old fat Duran, so I bid you adieu this time, gentlemen.


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

Bokaj said:


> Hasn't Floyd looked better than the Duran that lost to Laing and Hearns? For me Floyd is faster, fitter, more skilled and probably stronger than the Duran that lost to Hagler. His right lead is clearly better (the best I've ever seen), so I think that could give Hagler quite a bit of of trouble.


Of course he's looked better than the Laing Duran, but i don't think either are great this high up in weight.He's more consistent at 154 for sure and has shown he can beat decent\ordinary junior middles all day long most likely, whereas Duran had a much better looking highlight against a much more talented offensive fighter than Cotto, Alvarez or semi retired Oscar(which was aided by an early thumbing of Moore tbf), and fought vastly superior opponents in his defeats there and i saw nothing from Floyd at the weight that doesn't make me think he gets crushed by Hearns and comfortably outpointed by Benitez either.

I wouldn't exactly be shocked if Mayweather beat Duran at 154, though i can see arguments for both.What i can't see is using the Duran fight as an indicator for Mayweather beating Hagler.I see things like Mayweather vs Cotto and DLH more as an indicator he'd get beat by someone like Kalule or Benitez and worked by a McCallum or Hearns.He'd be best not to go anywhere near Hagler, as a duran-like overly respectful effort can hardly be counted on from Marvin.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bokaj said:


> While I it seems quite reasonably to favour not only Hagler but also Leonard over PBF, I think this is Classic at it's most cringe worthy when it comes to underestimating a modern fighter. Won't waste my time arguing that current Floyd is better than old fat Duran, so I bid you adieu this time, gentlemen.


I think you're over estimating him if you think the technical ability he shows against the basic opponents he fights (and technically most of 'em ain't been up to much) would translate against more skilled foes.

You think Floyd would go undefeated against say, Federico Thompson, Virgil Akins, Curtis Cokes, Jose Stable, Ayub Kalule?

Floyd's defence would not look as flawless if he didn't fight straight on opponents.

I do believe Floyd is a great operator in a terrible era. If you don't wanna read it, block me.


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

To me the thought of Floyd Mayweather defeating Marvin Hagler is insanity.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Teeto said:


> To me the thought of Floyd Mayweather defeating Marvin Hagler is insanity.


As is Roberto Dura.

Duran won a few rounds but i've never understood those who felt that fight was really close.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Flea Man said:


> As is Roberto Dura.
> 
> Duran won a few rounds but i've never understood those who felt that fight was really close.


How would you see Mayweather v Duran gooing anywhere from 135-147?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Rob said:


> How would you see Mayweather v Duran gooing anywhere from 135-147?


Rob why do you do this? Go away.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Flea Man said:


> Rob why do you do this? Go away.


Flea, I know we had a bit of beef in the past, but I forgot about that a long time ago. The last 2 days any questions I have been asking has been to genuinley get your opinoon because I respect it.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Rob said:


> Flea, I know we had a bit of beef in the past, but I forgot about that a long time ago. The last 2 days any questions I have been asking has been to genuinley get your opinoon because I respect it.


I ain't got no beef with you mate! But let's be honest, you do not want to hear anything about Floyd being outboxed, outfought, feinted out of position, etc etc because you do not believe it can happen.

My opinion will mean nothing to you because you think I'm genuinely biased against Floyd (bizarre) and you will not believe me if I said Duran would beat Floyd pretty easily at 135lbs.

I do think Floyd would beat the Duran of Laing. Even Leonard II, but it'd be a tough fight for Floyd.

Duran at his very best? He has too many tools for Floyd. You won't believe this, but he has MORE tools than Floyd. The footage backs this up.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Flea Man said:


> I ain't got no beef with you mate! But let's be honest, you do not want to hear anything about Floyd being outboxed, outfought, feinted out of position, etc etc because you do not believe it can happen.
> 
> My opinion will mean nothing to you because you think I'm genuinely biased against Floyd (bizarre) and you will not believe me if I said Duran would beat Floyd pretty easily at 135lbs.
> 
> ...


I beleive the best Duran would beat the best Mayweather.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Rob said:


> I beleive the best Duran would beat the best Mayweather.


Okay.

I would suggest you watch Duran Vs Marcel, Duran Vs Buchanan, Duran Vs De Jesus II & III and Duran Vs Leonard I; you get a good grasp of just how good he was from being a kid to being a welterweight. You will really enjoy these fights as well.

Give 'em a go, trust me.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Flea Man said:


> Okay.
> 
> I would suggest you watch Duran Vs Marcel, Duran Vs Buchanan, Duran Vs De Jesus II & III and Duran Vs Leonard I; you get a good grasp of just how good he was from being a kid to being a welterweight. You will really enjoy these fights as well.
> 
> Give 'em a go, trust me.


I have seen them all. I know how good he is. Like I said I think he beats Mayweather. I don't think it would be easy and I still beleive you massivley under rate Mayweather. But I was genuinley interested to hear your style breakdown of the fight.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Rob said:


> I have seen them all. I know how good he is. Like I said I think he beats Mayweather. I don't think it would be easy and I still beleive you massivley under rate Mayweather. But I was genuinley interested to hear your style breakdown of the fight.


I definitely do not underrate Mayweather. Only yesterday I said he'd beat Arguello comfortably. I also said he'd likely win at least 1 in a series with Ike Williams.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

Flea Man said:


> I definitely do not underrate Mayweather. Only yesterday I said he'd beat Arguello comfortably. I also said he'd likely win at least 1 in a series with Ike Williams.


Perhaps I was looking to the past. I dont think mayweathe would ever be easy for anyone though.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Rob said:


> Perhaps I was looking to the past. I dont think mayweathe would ever be easy for anyone though.


He'd be easy for Hearns.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I definitely do not underrate Mayweather. Only yesterday I said he'd beat Arguello comfortably. I also said he'd likely win at least 1 in a series with Ike Williams.


Mayweather vs Napoles. Do you think Floyd has the tools to negate the type of skills Napoles possessed in his prime?


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> As is Roberto Dura.
> 
> Duran won a few rounds but i've never understood those who felt that fight was really close.


yeah it was a pretty wide win for Marv, it's just too big an ask IMO.

Imagine Floyd getting fucking raped by Hagler though :rofl


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

rossco said:


> Mayweather vs Napoles. Do you think Floyd has the tools to negate the type of skills Napoles possessed in his prime?


I think it'd be a very stand off fight with both men trying to make the other lead.

Floyd faster of hand, Napoles sharper.

Both have great timing on their counters.

Napoles a little more silky.

Floyd has better skin.

I'd favour Napoles to take a very close decision. Floyd might cut him up though and win that way.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Teeto said:


> yeah it was a pretty wide win for Marv, it's just too big an ask IMO.
> 
> Imagine Floyd getting fucking raped by Hagler though :rofl


Fully Obel II stylee :yep


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I think it'd be a very stand off fight with both men trying to make the other lead.
> 
> Floyd faster of hand, Napoles sharper.
> 
> ...


I've always said I have Napoles in that one. I don't see what Floyd is going to do when the fight is mid-rounds and has moved from a long range (which doesn't necessarily go all Floyd's way) setting to an exchanging leather at closer quarters setting. I really see no contest as to who is the more skilled man in terms of combination punching at mid/close range. What exactly is Floyd going to do? Shoulder roll and pot shot his way out of maybe the best combination punching in conjunction with angle usage I've ever seen? Maybe pop off with some flurries too?  I can't see it. As I say, Floyd is my man, I love the guy, but this is just one of those fights I can't see for him on a styles basis to be honest.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Teeto said:


> I've always said I have Napoles in that one. I don't see what Floyd is going to do when the fight is mid-rounds and has moved from a long range (which doesn't necessarily go all Floyd's way) setting to an exchanging leather at closer quarters setting. I really see no contest as to who is the more skilled man in terms of combination punching at mid/close range. What exactly is Floyd going to do? Shoulder roll and pot shot his way out of maybe the best combination punching in conjunction with angle usage I've ever seen? Maybe pop off with some flurries too? I can't see it. As I say, Floyd is my man, I love the guy, but this is just one of those fights I can't see for him on a styles basis to be honest.


This is a great analysis. Napoles' footwork would allow him to get off more. He can create more angles than Floyd can to keep his game going.


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> This is a great analysis. Napoles' footwork would allow him to get off more. He can create more angles than Floyd can to keep his game going.


yep, :good


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> You not seen him spark Dai Dower? Probably on youtube. Dower was a bit susceptible in the chin department but was an Olympian and a top European fly. Perez did a Julian Jackson on him.


That right hand that put Dower down was as fast and compact as any right hand ever thrown by Samuel Peter.


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## Bill Butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> So it wasn't the quick left/feint to the body that set up the right habd? Or Floyd allowed Shane to set him up?
> 
> Or no one else would be able to set Floyd up?


Of course they could but I just meant it was a one off in Mayweather`s career and Mosely hurting him in round 2 in their fight doesn't sway me anymore towards Leonard being able to knock him out. Its not like that particular shot has happened numerous times to FMJ and is a weakness in his game, he just got caught, it happens. That shot Shane landed never told me anything other than Floyd can take a clean shot reasonably well, not Chavez like but well enough.

The Leonard/Mayweather fight would obviously go different and I think Floyd would be a lot more cautious, not that he was playing with Shane or anything and taking him lightly, he was serious and got caught fair and square, but Leonard is a different animal to Mosely and Floyd would be even more defensively aware, would that be enough to enable him to last the full 12 and lose on points ? very possibly, 15 rounds ? not likely IMO.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm of the opinion that Mayweather could have very well gotten KO'd by Mosley if they had fought when Shane was sharper. It's not out of the question :hey


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I'm of the opinion that Mayweather could have very well gotten KO'd by Mosley if they had fought when Shane was sharper. It's not out of the question :hey


that's a faith-based opinion.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> that's a faith-based opinion.


One things for sure, if a younger Mosley ever got Mayweather hurt, he would have done a much better job finishing him off then he did in their actual bout.

It's an opinion based on Prime Mosley being a better overall fighter than the shell who fought Floyd.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> One things for sure, if a younger Mosley ever got Mayweather hurt, he would have done a much better job finishing him off then he did in their actual bout.
> 
> It's an opinion based on Prime Mosley being a better overall fighter than the shell who fought Floyd.


Hey pal, Mayweather didn't even taste the canvas and he kicked Mosleys ass for the last third of that round. Mosley couldn't "finish off" Floyd because Floyd was only briefly stunned, and you pre'd yourself when that happened.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> Hey pal, Mayweather didn't even taste the canvas and he kicked Mosleys ass for the last third of that round. Mosley couldn't "finish off" Floyd because Floyd was only briefly stunned, and you pre'd yourself when that happened.


Shitty point. If you can't see a difference between 2010 Mosley and the Mosley that fucked up Leija and Riveira you should get your eyes checked. Mosley's finishing abilities at lightweight (and even at his early days of welter, IE the fight against DLH) he was a great finisher and capable of fucking up Mayweather if he had him that seriously hurt again. He couldn't finish him off because his skills, sharpness, and combination punching had declined. He just couldn't follow up.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Shitty point. If you can't see a difference between 2010 Mosley and the Mosley that fucked up Leija and Riveira you should get your eyes checked. Mosley's finishing abilities at lightweight (and even at his early days of welter, IE the fight against DLH) he was a great finisher and capable of fucking up Mayweather if he had him that seriously hurt again. He couldn't finish him off because his skills, sharpness, and combination punching had declined. He just couldn't follow up.


How do you think Mayweather was hurt to the point where anyone would him out? He was hurt about as badly as Tyson was by Bruno or De La Hoya was by Derrel Coley.Oh, and when was the last time Shame took out someone with a pulse early in a fight.


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## duranimal (Nov 28, 2012)

How is Mayweather going to defeat SRL?...What with?....He's outgunned in all departments!....More ring savvy that SRL?...NAH!.....Whats he got that's gonna faze someone of the caliber of SRL...FUCK ALL, that's what! Yeh, he could hope to survive by turning the fight into a stinker juxtaposed with having a compliant ref like Joe Cortez of the Hatton debacle. I'm amazed that anyone can seriously think that Mayweather could defeat Leonard over 12 rounds never mind 15. I've yet to here anyone set out how this Mayweather miracle's gonna happen! Whats he gonna do then? Out punch SRL, slip & slide along the ropes popping out the odd counter right hand & slide away smiling! No fucking chance! Or step in & hug SRL after he's thrown his usual 2 punch combo? the moment he tries to tie Leonard up he'll be on the receiving end of a blitzkrieg assault. Floyd Mayweather at 147 is tailor made for SRL. It would be a shutout stinker or a brutal TKO for Leonard. No way can Floyd step into the pocket with someone like SRL & not get badly clobbered, Leonard carries far to much ammunition juxtaposed with being a cluster puncher & precise with it. Whats Floyd gonna do, hold ring centre & jab Leonard away from him! Put SRL onto the back foot...LOL....Floyd would get smashed up, simple as, he's got nothing by way of offence, speed of punch, punch volume, punch power, speed of foot or tactical nous that could give him any chance of victory. OK SRL can have his stinkers such as Larry U.S Bonds, but to even suggest that someone like Floyd Mayweather is gonna do the biz against SRL is just confirming their own ignorance of the sport. Leonard just has to much of to much for Floyd, SRL would just apply the pressure, to much firepower, to much speed of punch, better combination puncher, precision countering juxtaposed with power, SRL has the full tool kit to smash the shit out of Mayweather who has absolutely nothing to counter what SRL brings into the ring.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

duranimal said:


> How is Mayweather going to defeat SRL?...What with?....He's outgunned in all departments!....More ring savvy that SRL?...NAH!.....Whats he got that's gonna faze someone of the caliber of SRL...FUCK ALL, that's what! Yeh, he could hope to survive by turning the fight into a stinker juxtaposed with having a compliant ref like Joe Cortez of the Hatton debacle. I'm amazed that anyone can seriously think that Mayweather could defeat Leonard over 12 rounds never mind 15. I've yet to here anyone set out how this Mayweather miracle's gonna happen! Whats he gonna do then? Out punch SRL, slip & slide along the ropes popping out the odd counter right hand & slide away smiling! No fucking chance! Or step in & hug SRL after he's thrown his usual 2 punch combo? the moment he tries to tie Leonard up he'll be on the receiving end of a blitzkrieg assault. Floyd Mayweather at 147 is tailor made for SRL. It would be a shutout stinker or a brutal TKO for Leonard. No way can Floyd step into the pocket with someone like SRL & not get badly clobbered, Leonard carries far to much ammunition juxtaposed with being a cluster puncher & precise with it. Whats Floyd gonna do, hold ring centre & jab Leonard away from him! Put SRL onto the back foot...LOL....Floyd would get smashed up, simple as, he's got nothing by way of offence, speed of punch, punch volume, punch power, speed of foot or tactical nous that could give him any chance of victory. OK SRL can have his stinkers such as Larry U.S Bonds, but to even suggest that someone like Floyd Mayweather is gonna do the biz against SRL is just confirming their own ignorance of the sport. Leonard just has to much of to much for Floyd, SRL would just apply the pressure, to much firepower, to much speed of punch, better combination puncher, precision countering juxtaposed with power, SRL has the full tool kit to smash the shit out of Mayweather who has absolutely nothing to counter what SRL brings into the ring.


:deal 
People look too much into Floyds performances vs these average plodding boxer/punchers like Alvarez. They Jizz in their pants over Floyd schooling these B class guys and think he could do it to much more skilled/mobile guy's like SRL, Duran and Hearns when there's more evidence to suggest he couldn't than could if you actually watch their fights and study styles. As I've said before there are past greats who just WOULD be able to impose their will on Floyd and SRL is one of them. He's got far too much for Floyd to deal with while Floyd has nothing but the odd pot shot counters to worry the Iron bearded Leonard. Leonard would be the one smiling at Floyd. He wouldn't respect him at all. He might have to do a bit of chasing and miss a fair few shots trying to land but in the end he gets to him and probably stops him late. He's far too all round skilled for FMJ as well as being more mobile and the tougher fighter.

Prime motivated Duran would chase Floyd out the ring and Hearns would brutalize him early. He just has no chance against prime versions of those guy's imo.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Teeto said:


> I've always said I have Napoles in that one. I don't see what Floyd is going to do when the fight is mid-rounds and has moved from a long range (which doesn't necessarily go all Floyd's way) setting to an exchanging leather at closer quarters setting. I really see no contest as to who is the more skilled man in terms of combination punching at mid/close range. What exactly is Floyd going to do? Shoulder roll and pot shot his way out of maybe the best combination punching in conjunction with angle usage I've ever seen? Maybe pop off with some flurries too? I can't see it. As I say, Floyd is my man, I love the guy, but this is just one of those fights I can't see for him on a styles basis to be honest.


Why is it going to short range though? At range Floyd is way too rangy and quick for Napoles while inside he's still hard to hit, strong inside and still counters well. Napoles has better combinations but I that isn't Floyd's bag and he usually does well to negate it. To make it effective you have to make Floyd miss his first or actually beat him to the punch. Floyd's ability isn't just speed but the ability to maintain being the first to land throughout (usually), which takes a fair bit of stamina.

Also Napoles is actually smaller than Floyd and much smaller than Floyd's opposition, he's about 10-15lbs lighter than Hatton in the ring at his best. He wasn't a genuine WW in his own time really, which speaks allot for his greatness but puts him at a disadvantage at H2Hs

Napoles like many others would have to resort to chasing Floyd, which makes him come up short while winning 1/3 of the rounds or so. Maybe Napoles does overcome all that though as he's a much much better puncher and combination puncher so if he can get through he can lay it on Floyd I can see the possibility but he has to overcome a great deal.

Put Floyd in with bigger technical quick WWs and his chances drop, Curry, Forrest, Quartey, Norris would be nightmare styles for him. Obviously Hearns/SRL are givens.


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Why is it going to short range though?


Of course it will, fighters like N'dou can close distance on Floyd. Napoles can have success at range and at closing distance against Carlos Monzon. I think it's pretty wild to think that Floyd will just chill out on the outside and pot shot to success against Napoles. Do you really think this happens?



Powerpuncher said:


> At range Floyd is way too rangy and quick for Napoles while inside he's still hard to hit, strong inside and still counters well. Napoles has better combinations but I that isn't Floyd's bag and he usually does well to negate it. To make it effective you have to make Floyd miss his first or actually beat him to the punch


I don't agree with any of this at all. Too rangy? Is Floyd rangier than Monzon? Of course not. I don't think the outside game is all Floyd's at all. If a fighter like Oscar can have decent success at establishing the jab then a much better all round and far more skilled fighter such as Napoles is definitely in the running to do so. I see both men boxing well in mid ring, if Floyd wants to just pot shot then Napoles has tools to deal with that, his head movement, footwork, countering off the front foot, all of these things put him in fine stead against anyone wanting to box in centre ring with him. I don't see how Floyd has a style advantage from a technical perspective. I just think Floyd is so great at doing what he does that he will have success with it regardless of the styles matchup. If Floyd decides to go up against the ropes, we know he has a great defense there, but as you say the skill level of the combinations Napoles brings are far superior to what Floyd is going to offer in return, and when Floyd is stationery like that those combos are going to do some scoring there. If Floyd wants to actually open up with his combos/flurries and trade on that front then I can't see how it can go any other way than for Napoles.



Powerpuncher said:


> . Floyd's ability isn't just speed but the ability to maintain being the first to land throughout (usually), which takes a fair bit of stamina.


:good Floyd is fantastic at this. Not easy to get off establishing yourself as the first to land against Jose Napoles though, constantly sliding and slipping, countering off the front foot, and establishing his own jab with much higher quality fire power coming behind it than Floyd has ever dealt with.



Powerpuncher said:


> Also Napoles is actually smaller than Floyd and much smaller than Floyd's opposition, he's about 10-15lbs lighter than Hatton in the ring at his best. He wasn't a genuine WW in his own time really, which speaks allot for his greatness but puts him at a disadvantage at H2Hs


Yep, in general this is true, but if were making the fight at 135 this doesn't really make much difference. If it's at 147 then both men aren't big there, Floyd I would say is more comfortable if I'm pushed to pick but they're both very successful at the weight so I don't see it being much of a factor. I do think this would be a factor if Floyd's style was different though, because I maintain that the way to beat Napoles is to be stronger than him and use that strength in an aggressive manner to push him backwards against the ropes, break his rhythm, and beat him up. Fighters like Castillo would be better suited stylistically for the job, but Castillo is a 135 man and I don't know how much Napoles would be bothered by that level of strength. I think a guy like Basilio at 147 would be able to do a number on Napoles, Leonard too. Margarito would be suited for the job stylistically but I don't know if he simply is on the level of ability to do it. Maybe, maybe not, I really don't know.

I just don't favour Floyd stylistically at all. I don't see him marauding and using his body strength (which is great) to push Napoles back and then unload on him with punches in bunches. That's not Floyd, and this is why he gets too much credit for his 'completeness'. Napoles is a complete fighter. Floyd is versatile and at the top level for the things he does well. The very top level, a great fighter.



Powerpuncher said:


> Napoles like many others would have to resort to chasing Floyd, which makes him come up short while winning 1/3 of the rounds or so. Maybe Napoles does overcome all that though as he's a much much better puncher and combination puncher so if he can get through he can lay it on Floyd I can see the possibility but he has to overcome a great deal.


We just see this completely differently for all the reasons already stated, we're on different planets.



Powerpuncher said:


> Put Floyd in with bigger technical quick WWs and his chances drop, Curry, Forrest, Quartey, Norris would be nightmare styles for him. Obviously Hearns/SRL are givens.


Agreed.

My position isn't that Napoles is kryptonite for Floyd. My position is that Floyd is not kryptonite for Napoles. So I'm left with an assessment to make. We see it completely differently from this point on.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Great post @Teeto


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Great post @Teeto


nice one :good


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## Bill Butcher (Aug 27, 2013)

duranimal said:


> How is Mayweather going to defeat SRL?...What with?....He's outgunned in all departments!....More ring savvy that SRL?...NAH!.....Whats he got that's gonna faze someone of the caliber of SRL...FUCK ALL, that's what! Yeh, he could hope to survive by turning the fight into a stinker juxtaposed with having a compliant ref like Joe Cortez of the Hatton debacle. I'm amazed that anyone can seriously think that Mayweather could defeat Leonard over 12 rounds never mind 15. I've yet to here anyone set out how this Mayweather miracle's gonna happen! Whats he gonna do then? Out punch SRL, slip & slide along the ropes popping out the odd counter right hand & slide away smiling! No fucking chance! Or step in & hug SRL after he's thrown his usual 2 punch combo? the moment he tries to tie Leonard up he'll be on the receiving end of a blitzkrieg assault. Floyd Mayweather at 147 is tailor made for SRL. It would be a shutout stinker or a brutal TKO for Leonard. No way can Floyd step into the pocket with someone like SRL & not get badly clobbered, Leonard carries far to much ammunition juxtaposed with being a cluster puncher & precise with it. Whats Floyd gonna do, hold ring centre & jab Leonard away from him! Put SRL onto the back foot...LOL....Floyd would get smashed up, simple as, he's got nothing by way of offence, speed of punch, punch volume, punch power, speed of foot or tactical nous that could give him any chance of victory. OK SRL can have his stinkers such as Larry U.S Bonds, but to even suggest that someone like Floyd Mayweather is gonna do the biz against SRL is just confirming their own ignorance of the sport. Leonard just has to much of to much for Floyd, SRL would just apply the pressure, to much firepower, to much speed of punch, better combination puncher, precision countering juxtaposed with power, SRL has the full tool kit to smash the shit out of Mayweather who has absolutely nothing to counter what SRL brings into the ring.


I agree 100%.... and to be honest I think anyone with any kinda knowledge of both fighters would have to agree as well. Mayweather has no shot at all here.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Teeto said:


> Of course it will, fighters like N'dou can close distance on Floyd. Napoles can have success at range and at closing distance against Carlos Monzon. I think it's pretty wild to think that Floyd will just chill out on the outside and pot shot to success against Napoles. Do you really think this happens?


I don't think he's going to 'chill', no :lol: But he would win when it's contested on the outside because he's quicker, has longer arms (long arms in relation to his reach) and is a better outboxer than Napoles because he uses range better and uses his reach better imo

Ndou didn't really close the distance, he was invited in to exchange and duly battered, which is a bit different. Cotto, Castillo and Hatton closed the distance, as did DLH in very much pressure strategies. All of those fights got turned at times though and then it went back to mid ring.



Teeto said:


> I don't agree with any of this at all. Too rangy? *Is Floyd rangier than Monzon? Of course not*. I don't think the outside game is all Floyd's at all.


No but he's much quicker and see above.



Teeto said:


> If a fighter like Oscar can have decent success at establishing the jab then a much better all round and far more skilled fighter such as Napoles is definitely in the running to do so.


Oscar's much bigger//heavier than both men and he was pressuring with his jab and trying to bull Mayweather and still didn't land very much. Not the best performance by Floyd either really.



Teeto said:


> I see both men boxing well in mid ring, if Floyd wants to just pot shot then Napoles has tools to deal with that, his head movement, footwork, countering off the front foot, all of these things put him in fine stead against anyone wanting to box in centre ring with him. I don't see how Floyd has a style advantage from a technical perspective.


Napoles is very skilled and isn't going to be completely outboxed by any means, I just think he's at a disadvantage that he'll look to negate by slipping past the jab and try to take it to mid range where he'd be more comfortable.



Teeto said:


> I just think Floyd is so great at doing what he does that he will have success with it regardless of the styles matchup. If Floyd decides to go up against the ropes, we know he has a great defense there, but as you say the skill level of the combinations Napoles brings are far superior to what Floyd is going to offer in return, and when Floyd is stationery like that those combos are going to do some scoring there. If Floyd wants to actually open up with his combos/flurries and trade on that front then I can't see how it can go any other way than for Napoles.


After your Ndou comment I went back to watch that one. I'd say I've Floyd's pre-lay off offense inside and out, he doesn't have the pop off Napoles but it really is punch perfect.



Teeto said:


> :good Floyd is fantastic at this. Not easy to get off establishing yourself as the first to land against Jose Napoles though, constantly sliding and slipping, countering off the front foot, and establishing his own jab with much higher quality fire power coming behind it than Floyd has ever dealt with.


Floyd misses more than normal for sure.



Teeto said:


> Yep, in general this is true, but if were making the fight at 135 this doesn't really make much difference. If it's at 147 then both men aren't big there, Floyd I would say is more comfortable if I'm pushed to pick but they're both very successful at the weight so I don't see it being much of a factor. I do think this would be a factor if Floyd's style was different though, because I maintain that the way to beat Napoles is to be stronger than him and use that strength in an aggressive manner to push him backwards against the ropes, break his rhythm, and beat him up. Fighters like Castillo would be better suited stylistically for the job, but Castillo is a 135 man and I don't know how much Napoles would be bothered by that level of strength. I think a guy like Basilio at 147 would be able to do a number on Napoles, Leonard too. Margarito would be suited for the job stylistically but I don't know if he simply is on the level of ability to do it. Maybe, maybe not, I really don't know.


Now you've gone mad bro, Napoles clearly beats Basilio and destroys Castillo and Margarito. Napoles matches up better with any of those than Mayweather does because Mayweather doesn't hit that hard. Napoles lands first, make them miss, counter them and generally hammer them into submission bar Basilio who gives him a good fight but very clearly loses. Margarito is basically a middleweight though, so would be a challenge in that sense.



Teeto said:


> :
> I just don't favour Floyd stylistically at all. I don't see him marauding and using his body strength (which is great) to push Napoles back and then unload on him with punches in bunches. That's not Floyd, and this is why he gets too much credit for his 'completeness'. Napoles is a complete fighter. Floyd is versatile and at the top level for the things he does well. The very top level, a great fighter.
> 
> No I don't see him marauding forward and battering Napoles, but I see him fighting someone who doesn't outweigh him (which is quite rare) sees him a little less effected by pressure, which Napoles needs
> ...


Not really, I pick Mayweather, but wouldn't be that surprised if Napoles wins, let's be honest if they were to fight tomorrow how much would either of us put on it? :lol:


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Floyd is an awesome talent, there's no denying it in my opinion.

I don't think he's on the top level though and I rank on the eye test. I put him outside my top 15. He isn't proven against a variety of styles imo. The likes of casamayor, zoo, lara, johnson, these would have enabled us to form a more complete opinion. But aside from Judah he's basically only fought come forward fighters and that is holding him back in terms of establishing his abilities.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> Floyd is an awesome talent, there's no denying it in my opinion.
> 
> I don't think he's on the top level though and I rank on the eye test. I put him outside my top 15. He isn't proven against a variety of styles imo. The likes of casamayor, zoo, lara, johnson, these would have enabled us to form a more complete opinion. But aside from Judah he's basically only fought come forward fighters and that is holding him back in terms of establishing his abilities.


:clap:

And Genaro Hernandez wasn't actually a brilliant operator, as much as people like to say he was close to it due to his umpteen ABC defences against average fighters.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Luf said:


> Floyd is an awesome talent, there's no denying it in my opinion.
> 
> I don't think he's on the top level though and I rank on the eye test. I put him outside my top 15. He isn't proven against a variety of styles imo. The likes of casamayor, zoo, lara, johnson, these would have enabled us to form a more complete opinion. But aside from Judah he's basically only fought come forward fighters and that is holding him back in terms of establishing his abilities.


Yeah, Floyd hasn't mixed it with a vast array of styles. On the eye test he's ridiculously good at the skills he does possess but his all round skill isn't top tier level. It's hard explaining this to hard core Floyd fans. Fighters like JCC are more skilled than Floyd but because Floyd is slick and athletic they think this equates to being more skilled. JCC has the greater all round attributes even if Floyd might be good enough at his skills to beat JCC. I doubt it though.


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> I don't think he's going to 'chill', no :lol: But he would win when it's contested on the outside because he's quicker, has longer arms (long arms in relation to his reach) and is a better outboxer than Napoles because he uses range better and uses his reach better imo


I don't see any of this as being guaranteed at all though. Floyd is faster than Napoles but faster fighters have been beaten throughout history consistently by guys slower than them who are great at manipulating angles and distance because they're great ring generals. Look at Napoles, he fits all of these bills. On the reach thing I just don't agree, Napoles was using angles and leverage to out-do Monzon, so just giving it to Floyd on the basis of reach doesn't do anything for me to be honest.



Powerpuncher said:


> Ndou didn't really close the distance, he was invited in to exchange and duly battered, which is a bit different. Cotto, Castillo and Hatton closed the distance, as did DLH in very much pressure strategies. All of those fights got turned at times though and then it went back to mid ring.


N'Dou was invited in by a Floyd who fought off the ropes as a strategy, that is true. As you say though, all of these other fighters who aren't as good as Napoles were able to close distance so I think that's counter-productive to your assertion that it doesn't go to close quarters. On the point about it going back to mid-ring, well as I say I don't see that as necessarily all goinf Floyd's way as I don't see him as having a styles advantage there. I just see him as being so great at what he does do that he has success regardless of not being stylistic kryptonite for Napoles (he's far from it IMO, really far).



Powerpuncher said:


> No but he's much quicker and see above.
> 
> Oscar's much bigger//heavier than both men and he was pressuring with his jab and trying to bull Mayweather and still didn't land very much. Not the best performance by Floyd either really.


I don't see why it has to be about dimensions. Napoles is much better than Oscar. Ok let's take Castillo who was able to establish authority to a very respectable degree in their first fight, that's down at 135 where Napoles is the man and in the heart of his prime.



Powerpuncher said:


> Napoles is very skilled and isn't going to be completely outboxed by any means, I just think he's at a disadvantage that he'll look to negate by slipping past the jab and try to take it to mid range where he'd be more comfortable.
> 
> After your Ndou comment I went back to watch that one. I'd say I've Floyd's pre-lay off offense inside and out, he doesn't have the pop off Napoles but it really is punch perfect.
> 
> ...


On these other points, I respect all your opinions, you're my man, but I don't think Napoles beats Basilio to be honest, I think it's a terrible match-up for him. I've given my reasoning already in my last post but you just think I'm a loony so I'm not putting it out there again haha


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

The more I think about it, the more this is a pick 'em fight imo.

Floyd gets badly undersold here. You always expect that to a degree with a contemporary fighters in here, but this time it's baaaaaaad.

You have a very quick fighter, with respectable power and great stamina and who's close to flawless in a tactical and technical sense with the confidence and mindset of a true champion - and he's completely written off. He's compared (sometimes unfavorably) to fighters like Moore (the LMW) and Kalule. 

Jesus.

Leonard has the advantage in terms of height and reach as well as power and also speed somewhat. And those are important advantages. He made them count against Benitez, who was the more skillful boxer, and he might well make them count against the more skillful Mayweather also. But Mayeather would confound and frustrate Leonard more than Benitez did. He'd make him miss and pay and doubt himself more than anyone except Duran did.

This really can go both ways, and it's very much about who can dig deepest in the rough patches, because both would have them.


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## sweet_scientist (Jun 16, 2013)

Wish we had evidence of Floyd beating someone two levels down from a prime Leonard so we could roughly gauge.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

sweet_scientist said:


> Wish we had evidence of Floyd beating someone two levels down from a prime Leonard so we could roughly gauge.


Yeah, I do to. But the cold fact is that few fighters ever face fighters close to prime Leonard in quality. Except for perhaps Gavilan, Robinson didn't either, but we have no problem giving him a very good chance against SRL.

And Floyd has some good scalps that of course get downplayed themselves. Judah was not an ATG, of course, but a quality fighter and I wouldn't be surprised if he substantially outweighed PBF in the ring, since Floyd is one of the few who doesn't cut weight before the weigh-in. DLH was past his best, but definitely had a clear advantage in size. Hatton, Cotto etc won't inspire future generations with awe, but neither do Tommy Bell who gave Robinson a tough fight.

I suppose Canelo predictably is dismissed as a bum after his loss to Floyd, but he certainly wasn't going in to the fight. A fight in which he probably had some 20 lbs on Floyd.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

the truth is though, Floyd has had opportunity to face top level boxers.

Casanayor, Freitas, Magic, Zoo all those woild have presented a new piece to the puzzle. Lara and Molina today would answer questions that are still to be asked.

I have issue with those assuming Floyd wouldn't get outboxed since we haven't seen him in with an elite top level boxer aside from Judah who was never a good welter and Marquez who was at a considerable disadvantage.

Had Floyd unified sfw, defended against Magic and unified at 140 we wouldn't still be having these doubts. We wouldn't have sarcy comments like "Floyd wouldn't even face him anyways". Floyd made his choices and fair play to him they've gotten him very rich and very well regarded.

But there's not a justification for putting him in the top 15 imo because there isn't that diversity he's overcome. If he out boxed Lara I wouldn't have any problem putting him in my top ten. I don't care how boring the fight might be, it's a challenge Floyd is yet to overcome, a prime, bigger, elite skilled operator. I think I rate Lara higher than most do though so I wouldn't expect everyone to be satisfied the same way I would be.

For me the Vanes, Molina and Angulo fights all actually make Lara a better fighter:

Molina was hugely under rated and made Lara awfully uncomfortable but he adjusted well and would rightly be a favourite in the rematch.

Andrade made Lara work hard but the fight didn't last long enough for a comprehensive winner to emerge, again though, Lara would rightly be a favourite in a rematch.

Angulo started very well and put the pressure on Lara from the off, Lara dug deep and essentially won it with a one punch finish. 

Floyd beating Lara answers all my questions.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bokaj said:


> Yeah, I do to. But the cold fact is that few fighters ever face fighters close to prime Leonard in quality. Except for perhaps Gavilan, Robinson didn't either, but we have no problem giving him a very good chance against SRL.
> 
> And Floyd has some good scalps that of course get downplayed themselves. Judah was not an ATG, of course, but a quality fighter and I wouldn't be surprised if he substantially outweighed PBF in the ring, since Floyd is one of the few who doesn't cut weight before the weigh-in. DLH was past his best, but definitely had a clear advantage in size. Hatton, Cotto etc won't inspire future generations with awe, but neither do Tommy Bell who gave Robinson a tough fight.
> 
> I suppose Canelo predictably is dismissed as a bum after his loss to Floyd, but he certainly wasn't going in to the fight. A fight in which he probably had some 20 lbs on Floyd.


Check my posts out before the fact; Canelo's deficiencies were plain to see.

Zab Judah was coming off a loss to probably the worst lineal 147lb champ ever. Zab has always been an inconsistent fighter.

I think Floyd would do alright but he'd have no chane of actually beating Leonard. He'd go the distance against the Ray that beat his old man but beat him? Probably not IMO, and Ray only got better afterwards.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Check my posts out before the fact; Canelo's deficiencies were plain to see.
> 
> Zab Judah was coming off a loss to probably the worst lineal 147lb champ ever. Zab has always been an inconsistent fighter.
> 
> I think Floyd would do alright but he'd have no chane of actually beating Leonard. He'd go the distance against the Ray that beat his old man but beat him? Probably not IMO, and Ray only got better afterwards.


Sure, Canelo has deficiencies. Which fighter doesn't? I also saw Floyd as a clear favorite going in to the fight and it played out just as I thought it would (like most of Floyd's fights tbf). And no, Canelo is no ATG and probably never will be, but he was still an undefeated fighter and much bigger than Floyd. Judah was no ATG either, but definitely had some qualities.

In short, they're like most top contenders/titlists have been through history. The main difference is rather that Floyd often gives up 10-20 lbs to his opponent. And even a not so special fighter can become a tricky prospect for anyone if he has that kind of weight advantage.

As I said, Robinson didn't have many opponents of outstanding quality either despite his long career, but that doesn't mean his chances is (or should be) dismissed against Leonard.

Anyone who knows anything about boxing and who isn't caught up in his own cliches should be able to see what a truly special fighter Floyd is. Much, much, much better than his father ever was. A rare blend of talent, craftsmanship, experience and dedication. I don't particularly like his style or enjoy his fights that much, but it's there to see.

And believe me, he would give Leonard one of his toughest fights. A tougher one than Benitez (who gave up more not only in speed but also reach) did.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bokaj said:


> Sure, Canelo has deficiencies. Which fighter doesn't? I also saw Floyd as a clear favorite going in to the fight and it played out just as I thought it would (like most of Floyd's fights tbf). And no, Canelo is no ATG and probably never will be, but he was still an undefeated fighter and much bigger than Floyd. Judah was no ATG either, but definitely had some qualities.
> 
> In short, they're like most top contenders/titlists have been through history. The main difference is rather that Floyd often gives up 10-20 lbs to his opponent. And even a not so special fighter can become a tricky prospect for anyone if he has that kind of weight advantage.
> 
> ...


Don't act like I should take a leaf out of your book and learn from you please. 'Anyone who knows anything about boxing' you've got to be taking the piss. I'm not interested in what you've got to say anymore, blocking you.

And to think I was singing your praises the other week.

All the best in your future endeavours.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

The real question being asked here is this: Could Leonard win a decision in a fight against a guy who would drop Ray's punches thrown and connect percentage by ~1/3, and outperform Benitez?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> The real question being asked here is this: Could Leonard win a decision in a fight against a guy who would drop Ray's punches thrown and connect percentage by ~1/3, and outperform Benitez?


It's no guarantee he would outperform Benitez, defensively they are completely different. Leonard would find a a way to connect if certain combinations wouldn't work. Also not fair to assume that Mayweather would negate Leonard's offense that badly, when Floyd's never faced anyone with this kind of offensive arsenal.

he would stop Mayweather, fuck a decision


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

Mayweather would certainly not drop Leonard's workrate.if anything his style would increase it quite a bit, especially if it's the more confident post-first title fight Ray.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Bill Jincock said:


> Mayweather would certainly not drop Leonard's workrate.if anything his style would increase it quite a bit, especially if it's the more confident post-first title fight Ray.


Who, in history, has been able to increase their workrate against Floyd?


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> It's no guarantee he would outperform Benitez, defensively they are completely different. Leonard would find a a way to connect if certain combinations wouldn't work. Also not fair to assume that Mayweather would negate Leonard's offense that badly, when Floyd's never faced anyone with this kind of offensive arsenal.
> 
> he would stop Mayweather, fuck a decision


Please don't gamble.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> Please don't gamble.


Good retort. Because fantasy fights have "fuck all" to do with gambling. Get real. Ive never bet against Floyd because there isnt a SRL in this era, and if there was its not like Floyd would bother to fight him anyway.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> Who, in history, has been able to increase their workrate against Floyd?


Which of Floyds opponents compare to Leonard in terms of offensive ability or ring IQ?

You seem very happy to give Floyd the benefit of the doubt but why does he hold the cards? What would he do to drop Leonards work rate 'cause he certainly isn't going to feint Ray into dropping his output?


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Which of Floyds opponents compare to Leonard in terms of offensive ability or ring IQ?You seem very happy to give Floyd the benefit of the doubt but why does he hold the cards? What would he do to drop Leonards work rate 'cause he certainly isn't going to feint Ray into dropping his output?


You seem to have dodged the question altogether. Claims that Leonard would increase punch output or stop Floyd are idiotic.Btw Leonards ring IQ is blown out of proportion. This is why he lost to Duran when that quitter had no chance if he stuck and moved.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> You seem to have dodged the question altogether. Claims that Leonard would increase punch output or stop Floyd are idiotic.Btw Leonards ring IQ is blown out of proportion. *This is why he lost to Duran when that quitter had no chance if he stuck and moved*.


Yeah, can't see Floyd letting someone get into his head like that and fight such a poor fight tactically. Not even Duran.

Tbf, I don't see it having any bearing on this fantasy match-up, though, since I definitely don't think Floyd would intimidate SRL like that.Think Leonard would fight the right fight: move and give angles behind his jab, to get the most of his advantages in speed and reach. Not very big advantages, though. 5 cm in reach and not much in speed at all, as Floyd is still very quick.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bokaj said:


> Not very big advantages, though. 5 cm in reach and not much in speed at all, as Floyd is still very quick.


Don't you think that since SRL is the harder hitter & throws better & faster combos give him significant advantages over Floyd? Floyd at 147 is clearly at a huge disadvantage here in those categories. P4P Floyd was faster, hit harder and more offensive at lightweight.



NoNeck said:


> Claims that Leonard would increase punch output or stop Floyd are idiotic.


actually they aren't, Leonard is one of the best finishers of all time, and his offensive arsenal is beyond anything Floyd has dreamed of seeing. It's not that hard to understand. How is Floyd going to negate SRL's combination punching?


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Don't you think that since SRL is the harder hitter & throws better & faster combos give him significant advantages over Floyd? Floyd at 147 is clearly at a huge disadvantage here in those categories. P4P he was faster, hit harder and more offensive at lightweight.


In no sense in the word is Floyd at "huge" disadvantage. His hands are very, very fast. Leonard's were perhaps faster, but only marginally so at best. The difference in power is overstated as well. Sure, Leonard has the much more impressive KO's, but that's partly down to style and also to the fact that he never faced guys that outweighed him by 10-20 lbs. If he had faced SMWs when himself weighing around 148 his KO reel would of course have been much less impressive (as would his record probably). That Floyd's punches gain the respect of guys like Canelo (usually over 170 lbs in the ring) shows that they got more than decent pop.

Leonard surely threw the better combos, but Floyd hardly throws any so that's a bit of a walk-over. I don't know why that is, but he makes it work very well for himself.

And what you forget here is that Leonard signalled his punches much more than Floyd does. Floyd's punches, especially, his right lead, come out of nowhere, while defensively skilled fighters could anticipate Leonard's punches relatively well. That will be a big factor in this fight.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bokaj said:


> In no sense in the word is Floyd at "huge" disadvantage. His hands are very, very fast. Leonard's were perhaps faster, but only marginally so at best. The difference in power is overstated as well. Sure, Leonard has the much more impressive KO's, but that's partly down to style and also to the fact that he never faced guys that outweighed him by 10-20 lbs. If he had faced SMWs when himself weighing around 148 his KO reel would of course have been much less impressive (as would his record probably). That Floyd's punches gain the respect of guys like Canelo (usually over 170 lbs in the ring) shows that they got more than decent pop.


You really don't see a big difference between hand speed when comparing the two? Not only does leonard hit ALOT harder but his hands were just flat out more impressive than Floyd's at 147, against better competition too. Leonard did fight SMWs, what about Geralado and Kalule? Kalule a highly skilled operator that was naturally bigger than SRL, and Geraldo a tough guy with a significant height advantage, with decent pop and a chin of iron. Leonard dealt with them both.

You're giving credit for Floyd doing a catchweight against Canelo and then fighting Cotto who isn't a big SMW (like Floyd kind of) and old Oscar. These guys are decent but not great SMWs by any stretch of the imagination.

I didn't say Floyd can't punch. But Leonard is clearly the much harder puncher. That can't be disputed. He's the naturally bigger guy. He fought a better crop of Welterweights than Floyd did, and destroyed them better than Floyd would. He's just as accurate as Floyd, but throws better combos, is more vicious, and is more explosive/harder hitting.



> And what you forget here is that Leonard signalled his punches much more than Floyd does. Floyd's punches, especially, his right lead, come out of nowhere, while defensively skilled fighters could anticipate Leonard's punches relatively well. That will be a big factor in this fight.


Floyd wouldn't just anticipate everything Leonard throws, nope. Leonard's punches aren't that telegraphed at all. They're as fast as lightning and Floyd wouldn't be able to defend against all that shit.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> You really don't see a big difference between hand speed when comparing the two? Not only does leonard hit ALOT harder but his hands were just flat out more impressive than Floyd's at 147, against better competition too. Leonard did fight SMWs, what about Geralado and Kalule? Kalule a highly skilled operator that was naturally bigger than SRL, and Geraldo a tough guy with a significant height advantage, with decent pop and a chin of iron. Leonard dealt with them both.
> 
> You're giving credit for Floyd doing a catchweight against Canelo and then fighting Cotto who isn't a big SMW (like Floyd kind of) and old Oscar. These guys are decent but not great SMWs by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> ...


Kalule was a LMW, not a SMW, and Leonard wasn't 148 lbs in the ring when he fought, but 154. LaLonde was probably Leonard's only opponent who outweighed him substantially in the ring, but this was during the same day weigh-in so it took more out of him to drain. And even so I don't believe the difference was more than 10 lbs.

And I just flat out disagree that Leonard punched much, much harder. He probably punched harder, sure, but I don't think that would be too much of a factor here, since both guys have great chins and especially Floyd rarely get hit clean.

Floyd clearly telegraphs his punches less. His right hand lead is the best I've ever seen and it would definitely be a factor in the fight.

From a technical standpoint I think Floyd does everything better except for combinations. But his lack of combos is probably more of a tactical decision, because he can throw them without a doubt.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Bokaj said:


> Yeah, can't see Floyd letting someone get into his head like that and fight such a poor fight tactically. Not even Duran.
> 
> Tbf, I don't see it having any bearing on this fantasy match-up, though, since I definitely don't think Floyd would intimidate SRL like that.Think Leonard would fight the right fight: move and give angles behind his jab, to get the most of his advantages in speed and reach. Not very big advantages, though. 5 cm in reach and not much in speed at all, as Floyd is still very quick.


What could happen is that Leonard could get a little frustrated from missing and start to get more aggressive and move in straighter lines, which might play more into Floyd's hands. I see a close fight either way.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> What could happen is that Leonard could get a little frustrated from missing and start to get more aggressive and move in straighter lines, which might play more into Floyd's hands. I see a close fight either way.


I do as well.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Don't you think that since SRL is the harder hitter & throws better & faster combos give him significant advantages over Floyd? Floyd at 147 is clearly at a huge disadvantage here in those categories. P4P Floyd was faster, hit harder and more offensive at lightweight.
> 
> actually they aren't, Leonard is one of the best finishers of all time, and his offensive arsenal is beyond anything Floyd has dreamed of seeing. It's not that hard to understand. How is Floyd going to negate SRL's combination punching?


Floyd has fought many combination punchers. When they fight Floyd, they stop throwing combinations. Floyd has sharp power and earns respect quickly. Otherwise, he would've gotten walked over when he jumped up in weight.

It's true that Leonard would be the best combo puncher Floyd fought. It's also true that De La Hoya was one one of the best combo punchers around those weights in the last 15 or so years. Shit, Marquez is a brilliant combo puncher too. Floyd slows guys down a lot.

Floyd also would be the best welter Leonard ever fought in terms of defense, adaptability, reflexes, counter punching, and speed (arguably). In all of those attributes except maybe for speed, Floyd is better than Leonard ever was. Also, he wouldn't be nearly as green as Hearns, who like Duran, was able to take rounds off Leonard.

It would likely be a slowed down, tactical fight. Leonard still might win that fight but it would be close. It might come down to how tentative Floyd would be over the first four rounds.


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

There is definitely a significant power gap between the two.Mayweather looked clearly a lesser puncher p4p imo even when he as fighting men the same size\smaller than him at 130\135, to say nothing of the Welter Mayweather.Leonard has numerous stoppages of varying types that are far more brutal than anything Mayweather has ever pulled off.

imo Leonard had one of the best left-hooks in 147 history.A savage punch and his right hand was formidable as well.

mayweather had a solid two fisted attack at 130.He's generally shown only mediocre power above that, though of course he still hits hard enough to gain respect from many fighters.95% of boxers do, it's only when they face the notably tough or the really good\great that a lack of power tends to get really shown up, if the fighter in question is very talented elsewhere.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> Floyd has fought many combination punchers. When they fight Floyd, they stop throwing combinations. Floyd has sharp power and earns respect quickly. Otherwise, he would've gotten walked over when he jumped up in weight.
> 
> It's true that Leonard would be the best combo puncher Floyd fought. It's also true that De La Hoya was one one of the best combo punchers around those weights in the last 15 or so years. Shit, Marquez is a brilliant combo puncher too. Floyd slows guys down a lot.
> 
> ...


Good post.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Teeto said:


> I don't see any of this as being guaranteed at all though. Floyd is faster than Napoles but faster fighters have been beaten throughout history consistently by guys slower than them who are great at manipulating angles and distance because they're great ring generals. Look at Napoles, he fits all of these bills. On the reach thing I just don't agree, Napoles was using angles and leverage to out-do Monzon, so just giving it to Floyd on the basis of reach doesn't do anything for me to be honest.


Yes but I think Mayweather in turn is at least as good a general as Napoles, maybe I'm wrong, who knows?



Teeto said:


> N'Dou was invited in by a Floyd who fought off the ropes as a strategy, that is true. As you say though, all of these other fighters who aren't as good as Napoles were able to close distance so I think that's counter-productive to your assertion that it doesn't go to close quarters. On the point about it going back to mid-ring, well as I say I don't see that as necessarily all goinf Floyd's way as I don't see him as having a styles advantage there. I just see him as being so great at what he does do that he has success regardless of not being stylistic kryptonite for Napoles (he's far from it IMO, really far).


I absolutely see Napoles closing distance, it's just I don't see him dominating there and it wouldn't stay there either.



Teeto said:


> I don't see why it has to be about dimensions. Napoles is much better than Oscar. Ok let's take Castillo who was able to establish authority to a very respectable degree in their first fight, that's down at 135 where Napoles is the man and in the heart of his prime.


It isn't all about weight/dimensions but they're a factor, if DLH/Castillo had 10-15lb weight advantages Mayweather is up against it in all kind of ways that he wouldn't be against Napoles.



Teeto said:


> On these other points, I respect all your opinions, you're my man, but I don't think Napoles beats Basilio to be honest, I think it's a terrible match-up for him. I've given my reasoning already in my last post but you just think I'm a loony so I'm not putting it out there again haha


No probs bud, seems like an eternity since we had a boxing debate. 


Bokaj said:


> And Floyd has some good scalps that of course get downplayed themselves. Judah was not an ATG, of course, but a quality fighter and I wouldn't be surprised if he substantially outweighed PBF in the ring, since Floyd is one of the few who doesn't cut weight before the weigh-in. DLH was past his best, but definitely had a clear advantage in size. Hatton, Cotto etc won't inspire future generations with awe, but neither do Tommy Bell who gave Robinson a tough fight.
> 
> I suppose Canelo predictably is dismissed as a bum after his loss to Floyd, but he certainly wasn't going in to the fight. A fight in which he probably had some 20 lbs on Floyd.


Judah didn't have any size advantage over Mayweather, both didn't gain anything after the weigh ins. Hatton was around 155 in the ring I think, Cotto/DLH probably gained 10lbs back or so. Alvarez was probably drained at that catch weight though.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> The real question being asked here is this: Could Leonard win a decision in a fight against a guy who would drop Ray's punches thrown and connect percentage by ~1/3, and outperform Benitez?


Floyd can drop slow wide punching fighters output by the threat of counters, he can't necessarily do that to a much faster Leonard



Bokaj said:


> Yeah, can't see Floyd letting someone get into his head like that and fight such a poor fight tactically. Not even Duran.
> .


It wasn't necessarily a worse gameplan than Floyd's against Castillo, Judah or DLH was it?



Bokaj said:


> In no sense in the word is Floyd at "huge" disadvantage. His hands are very, very fast. Leonard's were perhaps faster, but only marginally so at best.* The difference in power is overstated as well.* Sure, Leonard has the much more impressive KO's, but that's partly down to style and also to the fact that he never faced guys that outweighed him by 10-20 lbs. If he had faced SMWs when himself weighing around 148 his KO reel would of course have been much less impressive (as would his record probably). That Floyd's punches gain the respect of guys like Canelo (usually over 170 lbs in the ring) shows that they got more than decent pop.
> 
> Leonard surely threw the better combos, but Floyd hardly throws any so that's a bit of a walk-over. I don't know why that is, but he makes it work very well for himself.
> 
> And what you forget here is that Leonard signalled his punches much more than Floyd does. Floyd's punches, especially, his right lead, come out of nowhere, while defensively skilled fighters could anticipate Leonard's punches relatively well. That will be a big factor in this fight.


No it isn't, his own uncle says 'Floyd can't punch', Leonard and Floyd's power are on different stratosphere's and it's obvious to the eye. Those guys who weight 160+ have to kill themselves to make weight.

Oh and WTF I think you forgot someone allot bigger than Ray and a whole lot better than Canelo in Hagler, Hagler would have been cutting around 10lbs and gaining it back. And he was actually an ATG. And how much do you think 6'1 Hearns was gaining back?

If Leonard's landing as much as Floyd because of his speed, Floyd is pretty much screwed, much like his father was after initially getting the better of Leonard, Leonard just walked him down. He'd do the same to Floyd Jr who actually isn't a whole lot different or better than daddy.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

I can't look it up at the moment, but Mosley said something to the effect of Floyd being one of the hardest punchers he ever fought, and a harder puncher than Pac.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> I can't look it up at the moment, but Mosley said something to the effect of Floyd being one of the hardest punchers he ever fought, and a harder puncher than Pac.


Shane also said Pac is the hardest puncher. He's not reliable.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> You seem to have dodged the question altogether. Claims that Leonard would increase punch output or stop Floyd are idiotic.Btw Leonards ring IQ is blown out of proportion. This is why he lost to Duran when that quitter had no chance if he stuck and moved.


This is why you have no credibility.

Bokaj doesn't realise by agreeing with you that he looks very, very stupid.

Even PowerPuncher is going against you two and Floyd. Oh, dear.


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## sweet_scientist (Jun 16, 2013)

Bokaj said:


> Yeah, I do to. But the cold fact is that few fighters ever face fighters close to prime Leonard in quality. Except for perhaps Gavilan, Robinson didn't either, but we have no problem giving him a very good chance against SRL.
> 
> And Floyd has some good scalps that of course get downplayed themselves. Judah was not an ATG, of course, but a quality fighter and I wouldn't be surprised if he substantially outweighed PBF in the ring, since Floyd is one of the few who doesn't cut weight before the weigh-in. DLH was past his best, but definitely had a clear advantage in size. Hatton, Cotto etc won't inspire future generations with awe, but neither do Tommy Bell who gave Robinson a tough fight.
> 
> I suppose Canelo predictably is dismissed as a bum after his loss to Floyd, but he certainly wasn't going in to the fight. A fight in which he probably had some 20 lbs on Floyd.


Problem is Floyd struggled with most of the guys you just mentioned, and there is a sea dividing them from Ray Leonard.

Like others have said in this thread, Leonard is simply too much of an offensive force for a defensive minded low output fighter to contend with, no matter how good their defense or adaptability is.

Floyd might be a better fighter p4p than Benitez, but Wilfred looked more impressive against Ray to me than Mayweather has in any welterweight fight he's ever fought.

And Wilfred still lost at least 2/3's of the rounds to Ray.

I can see this fight being a wash for Leonard as far as rounds go. Mayweather won't be dominated as far as losing rounds big or anything, but he's also not going to pull many off against a supreme offensive fighter like Ray - who will not be phased by one shot at a time being launched at him, regardless of how sharp or accurate it is - and will seek to throw flurries and put Floyd under pressure at a rate Floyd won't be comfortable with.

Personally, I think Ray beats Floyd rather handily even in a p4p sense, let alone at welterweight. At welter it just becomes more decisive.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Stop being biased. Obviously your eyes aren't as good as those who favour Floyd and you're being swept off your feet by grainy footage.


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## sweet_scientist (Jun 16, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Stop being biased. Obviously your eyes aren't as good as those who favour Floyd and you're being swept off your feet by grainy footage.


Yeah, if I had Ray's fights in HD quality, I'd probably favour Floyd by KO.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

sweet_scientist said:


> Yeah, if I had Ray's fights in HD quality, I'd probably favour Floyd by KO.


Thing is, you're favouring fighters from your own era, that old cliche.

Even though...you know, you weren't even born when Leonard was at his best.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

sweet_scientist said:


> Problem is Floyd struggled with most of the guys you just mentioned, and there is a sea dividing them from Ray Leonard.


Struggled? That terms really get used liberally sometimes.  The fight against DLH was close on the judges' cards, true, but on my card Floyd won it comfortably. I didn't give Oscar many rounds for his ineffectual slapping on Floyd's guard.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

This could go on forever, so I'll summarize my thoughts:

This would be a cagey fight with both looking to draw the other man out and counter. Much like SRL-Benitez, but with the main difference being that Floyd is faster and has longer reach than Benitez, so the two main advantages that Leonard used to win that fight would be less of a factor here. 

As for Leonard's advantage in power, it would probably be a factor to some degree but not as big as most here make it out to be. Leonard didn't have the kind of power that was ever decisive against defensively skilled fighters with good chins. He never even hurt Duran and I don't think Benitez was that hurt either. Him going down in the final round was due to fatigue and attrition more than a single punch or combination.

While Floyd doesn't have great power, it's enough to keep even much bigger opponents honest. I'd expect his punches would have the same effect on Leonard. I see no way that he just walks right through them. Especially since they are accurate, well timed and very hard to anticipate. 

Floyd's main advantages are that he telegraphs his punches less than Leonard, his tighter guard, his more varied defensive moves, his superior counters and superior lead right. These could well make him see the better of a chess match in the middle of the ring. But if that happens, Leonard is likely to take more chances and try to make it into more of a war to capitalize on his combinations and power. Here it gets really interesting, but it's also where I sign off.


Ps. Sorry if I offended anyone by sounding a bit arrogant. No offense was intended.


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Yes but I think Mayweather in turn is at least as good a general as Napoles, maybe I'm wrong, who knows?
> 
> I absolutely see Napoles closing distance, it's just I don't see him dominating there and it wouldn't stay there either.
> 
> ...


:good nice to have the debate with you again PP


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Camacho clearly exposed Leonard who could not deal with a fast opponent.
Mayweather would do just as well as Camacho, Leonard wasn't much past it, 5 fights earlier he was the lineal mw champ.

One thing is for sure, Leonard is going down.
If undie man could do it, Mayweather could certainly do it.

:ibutt


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