# Andre Ward Vs. Joe Calzaghe



## Rigondeaux (Jun 3, 2013)

I browse reddit r/boxing from time to time and this is being discussed over there, surprised to see how many people think Joe has a chance there. The crowd that posts there is leaning towards the casual side so I hope to see this group is a bit more knowledgeable and realizes Ward mops the floor here. 

Discuss.


----------



## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

It seems like you already considered people who picks Joe as mere casuals.


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Pretty even fight imo, could see both edging it


----------



## Squire (May 17, 2013)

Wouldn't like to pick a winner outright but I think JC poses Ward massive problems and would have a lot more success than Froch did. Without a doubt Ward hasn't faced a challenge as great as Calzaghe, and vice versa

Dream fight!


----------



## DaveyBoyEssexUK (Jun 8, 2013)

Said it for a long time It will be a close fight but after 8 rds Calzaghe will pull away and win on pts, Ward not faced someone who can adapt like Jazz and with such a high word rate and great engine


----------



## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

I lean towards Calzaghe sweeping the later rounds and stealing it on points.


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Calzaghe beat a similar fighter in Hopkins, Ward hasn't best anybody like Calzaghe who in my mind presents a stylistic nightmare for him (and pretty much everyone Joe faced)


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

JamieC said:


> *A blown-up hand-injured* Calzaghe beat a similar fighter in Hopkins, Ward hasn't best anybody like Calzaghe who in my mind presents a stylistic nightmare for him (and pretty much everyone Joe faced)


:deal


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

I pick Joe. Joe was more motivated than Ward and would gut it out and win a decision. Ward is not as tough as Joe mentally.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

An old Hopkins dropped Calzaghe and had his corner panicking thinking they were losing. Ward is bigger, younger and just as skilled as the Hopkins that had ole Joe having to out hustle to a victory not too mention Wards super middleweight resume is superior. The real battle would be getting slappy Joe in the ring considering he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fight Jeff Lacy


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> An old Hopkins dropped Calzaghe and had his corner panicking thinking they were losing. Ward is bigger, younger and just as skilled as the Hopkins that had ole Joe having to out hustle to a victory not too mention Wards super middleweight resume is superior. *The real battle would be getting slappy Joe in the ring considering he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fight Jeff Lacy*


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

MichiganWarrior said:


> An old Hopkins dropped Calzaghe and had his corner panicking thinking they were losing. Ward is bigger, younger and just as skilled as the Hopkins that had ole Joe having to out hustle to a victory not too mention Wards super middleweight resume is superior. The real battle would be getting slappy Joe in the ring considering he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fight Jeff Lacy


I thought he floored Calz


----------



## Felix (Mar 13, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> An old Hopkins dropped Calzaghe and had his corner panicking thinking they were losing. Ward is bigger, younger and just as skilled as the Hopkins that had ole Joe having to out hustle to a victory not too mention Wards super middleweight resume is superior. The real battle would be getting slappy Joe in the ring considering he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fight Jeff Lacy


http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=247278

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?8893-What-does-the-term-quot-floored-quot-mean-to-you


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Lol Brit **** mad. 


Froch has a superior super middle weight resume to old Slaps and Ward beat Froch so easy he didn't want a rematch


BTW didn't Slappy Joe nearly lose to Robin fucking Reid. Dreadful.

Ward definitely gives slaps the bbc


----------



## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Its 50/50 imo. I dont thibk either have beaten a fightrr as good as the other in their prime (and I include Hopkibs here), both are good at adapting and both are solid all rounders.

I can see a see saw fight as both make adjustments throughout. Would go to points and then could go either way.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveyBoyEssexUK (Jun 8, 2013)

JamieC said:


>


:deal


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

JamieC said:


> Calzaghe beat a similar fighter in Hopkins, Ward hasn't best anybody like Calzaghe who in my mind presents a stylistic nightmare for him (and pretty much everyone Joe faced)


and that was a 175 pound bernard hopkins who already schooled a legitimate lhw in antonio tarver.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

People often seem to forget that JC was also an old man against Hopkins.
Besides that he was probably coked up already


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

dyna said:


> People often seem to forget that JC was also an old man against Hopkins.
> Besides that he was probably coked up already


Also fought him in his first fight at 175


----------



## welsh_dragon83 (Aug 11, 2013)

DaveyBoyEssexUK said:


> Said it for a long time It will be a close fight but after 8 rds Calzaghe will pull away and win on pts, Ward not faced someone who can adapt like Jazz and with such a high word rate and great engine


spot on with this :clap:


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)




----------



## James14 (Dec 27, 2015)

Genuine 50/50 fight. Pity neither man had the balls to make the most of there careers.


----------



## Rigondeaux (Jun 3, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


>


LMFAO what a joke


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

50/50. I'd lean towards Ward.


----------



## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

Ward by a decent margin. 8-4. 
I think people overrate JC's ability based on the names at the late stage of his career. He was not really that convincing fighter early on and late was mostly names. Lacy and Kessler were his best wins.


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Rigondeaux said:


> LMFAO what a joke


Early career Joe had good power


----------



## Brighton Bomber (May 25, 2013)

I favour Calzaghe and this is coming from a Ward fan who dislikes Calzaghe. 

Ward is very good but in terms of a style match up I think Calzaghe has the edge. Barring an injury Ward doesn't have the power to stop Calzaghe and that means out pointing him which is never going to be easy with Calzaghe's insane work rate, Joe will win rounds on this alone. Throw in the fact Ward has never fought anyone as fast as Calzaghe or with such good footwork and that Calzaghe has proven himself to be very adaptable. Calzaghe's big defensive weakness is his openness to the right hand, a punch which is not Ward's best punch, Ward's big weapon is his left hook not the right hand. 

Ward beats fighters by sliding in and out, usually dominating on the inside then getting out. To win he needs to get inside and tie Calzaghe up to smother his work rate and that's a big ask, Hopkins tried his best to tie Calzaghe up and did reduce his work rate to some degree but it wasn't enough, Ward like Hopkins doesn't have the big weapons to hurt Calzaghe and prevent him working and coming in. Ward would need a very friendly ref to allow him to shut Calzaghe down. 

It would be a close fight but Calzaghe edges it by being busier and more aggressive.


----------



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Rigondeaux said:


> I browse reddit r/boxing from time to time and this is being discussed over there, surprised to see how many people think Joe has a chance there. The crowd that posts there is leaning towards the casual side so I hope to see this group is a bit more knowledgeable and realizes Ward mops the floor here.
> 
> Discuss.


I'd pick Calzaghe. Think I'm an idiot?


----------



## Wig (Jan 26, 2014)

Chacal said:


> 50/50. I'd lean towards Ward.


Yep I agree it's a 50/50 but Calzaghe absolutely schools him.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hopkins to this day believes he beats Calzaghe yet refused to fight Ward believing he had no chance says if all really


----------



## Kurushi (Jun 11, 2013)

dyna said:


> People often seem to forget that JC was also an old man against Hopkins.
> Besides that he was probably coked up already


Definitely worth reminding people of this. The Hopkins win has a little bit of meaning when it comes to comparing how Calzaghe might have performed against Ward which is why people bring it up. Hopkins was obviously past prime but so was Calzaghe, more so than Hopkins it has subsequently been proved. If we look at that win as some sort of touchstone for the Calzaghe/Ward conversation then it's worth pointing out that Calzaghe was past prime fighting at LHW. A prime Calazghe at SMW is an immense challenge for Ward.

I think prime for prime, Ward takes it though. Calzaghe would have neutralised a lot of Ward's tools but doing so would have taken up too much of his effort for him to actually win more rounds than Ward. It would have been quite an unaesthetic fight I think that Ward would have won on points with a lot of rounds up for debate.


----------



## Twelvey (Jun 6, 2012)

JamieC said:


>


:lol:


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

Kurushi said:


> Definitely worth reminding people of this. The Hopkins win has a little bit of meaning when it comes to comparing how Calzaghe might have performed against Ward which is why people bring it up. Hopkins was obviously past prime but so was Calzaghe, more so than Hopkins it has subsequently been proved. If we look at that win as some sort of touchstone for the Calzaghe/Ward conversation then it's worth pointing out that Calzaghe was past prime fighting at LHW. A prime Calazghe at SMW is an immense challenge for Ward.
> 
> I think prime for prime, Ward takes it though. Calzaghe would have neutralised a lot of Ward's tools but doing so would have taken up too much of his effort for him to actually win more rounds than Ward. It would have been quite an unaesthetic fight I think that Ward would have won on points with a lot of rounds up for debate.


When was Calzaghe prime? Here is in 1999 against David Starie. Check the highlights. Is this the pinnacle?


----------



## Kurushi (Jun 11, 2013)

conradically said:


> When was Calzaghe prime? Here is in 1999 against David Starie. Check the highlights. Is this the pinnacle?


Calzaghe's prime was probably around 2004-'06. So the Starie fight was roughly half a decade before Joe's prime.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

conradically said:


> When was Calzaghe prime? Here is in 1999 against David Starie. Check the highlights. Is this the pinnacle?


This is a prime Calzaghe


----------



## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

I think Calzaghe's prime was roughly 2004, hard to gauge because his physical prime and his boxing prime so to speak did not occur at the same time. His physical peak was around 97 / 98 before the wrist and hand problems. His best performance against Lacy would not happen until 06.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Ah, nobody splits opinion like Joe Calzaghe


----------



## Kieran (Jun 6, 2012)

Both of them do my head in. I'd hope for a double KO.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

DaveyBoyEssexUK said:


> Said it for a long time It will be a close fight but after 8 rds Calzaghe will pull away and win on pts, Ward not faced someone who can adapt like Jazz and with such a high word rate and great engine


:rofl


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2013)

Close fight. Calzaghe by split decision


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

Dub Step shite, but Calzaghe goes with anything


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)




----------



## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

I don't know whose punching technique is worse - Calzaghe or the taxi drivers, cooks, security guards he paid to take a dive.

Gosh - that Manredo Jr fight is cringe worthy. Death by a thousand slaps.

And the Kessler section... Kessler provided better highlights than the winner... SMH!


----------



## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

I don't like Calzaghe one bit, but somehow always pulls it out


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

Harold Lederrman on Joe Calzaghe "The guy is just so good"


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

chibelle said:


> I don't know whose punching technique is worse - Calzaghe or the taxi drivers, cooks, security guards he paid to take a dive.
> 
> Gosh - that Manredo Jr fight is cringe worthy. Death by a thousand slaps.
> 
> And the Kessler section... Kessler provided better highlights than the winner... SMH!


Manny Steward picked both Lacy and Kessler to beat him, then conceded "He can make adjustments better than any fighter I've ever seen before, I'll never pick against him again"

"Calzaghe is a special, special fighter"


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

Roy Jones "Make no mistake about it, Joe Calzaghe is a legend"


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

chibelle said:


> I don't know whose punching technique is worse - Calzaghe or the taxi drivers, cooks, security guards he paid to take a dive.
> 
> Gosh - that Manredo Jr fight is cringe worthy. Death by a thousand slaps.
> 
> And the Kessler section... Kessler provided better highlights than the winner... SMH!


But Kessler lost...

Lacy lost

Manfredo lost

Name a secutiry guard with the resume of Joe C


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

chibelle said:


> And the Kessler section... Kessler provided better highlights than the winner... SMH!


"So Calzaghe really stepped it up at the end, and you were really going for the KO"

Kessler: "Yeah, but I missed!!"


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

Brighton Bomber said:


> I favour Calzaghe and this is coming from a Ward fan who dislikes Calzaghe.
> 
> Ward is very good but in terms of a style match up I think Calzaghe has the edge. Barring an injury Ward doesn't have the power to stop Calzaghe and that means out pointing him which is never going to be easy with Calzaghe's insane work rate, Joe will win rounds on this alone. Throw in the fact Ward has never fought anyone as fast as Calzaghe or with such good footwork and that Calzaghe has proven himself to be very adaptable. Calzaghe's big defensive weakness is his openness to the right hand, a punch which is not Ward's best punch, Ward's big weapon is his left hook not the right hand.
> 
> ...


This... Exactly how I see it going.


----------



## Someguy101 (Jun 4, 2013)

Lol. Froch made Ward tire after 8....Froch. And he clawed back the later rounds.

Now imagine Calzaghes workrate from bell 1.

Ward gasses. Ergo Ward loses.


----------



## BobDigi5060 (Jul 15, 2012)

Calzaghe is more sophisticated and would reach Andre Ward in every single round. JC with the quicker hands, might get knocked down himself, but would win the exchanges imo. UD.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Someguy101 said:


> Lol. Froch made Ward tire after 8....Froch. And he clawed back the later rounds.
> 
> Now imagine Calzaghes workrate from bell 1.
> 
> Ward gasses. Ergo Ward loses.


Ward fought Froch with a broken hand
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7384318/andre-ward-had-broken-hand-win-carl-froch


----------



## Someguy101 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward fought Froch with a broken hand
> http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7384318/andre-ward-had-broken-hand-win-carl-froch


Ward beijg able to are both hands and his stamina are seperate things unless youre suggesting he would have KOd Froch?

The point is Ward clearly gassed hard so how would he fare better vs a guy that would exhaust him? Nobody not even Kovalev made Hopkins so tired he needed to fake injury so much.

Joes resume is his weakness but his skill is obvious. Joe beats Captain Ego Andre Ward.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Someguy101 said:


> Ward beijg able to are both hands and his stamina are seperate things unless youre suggesting he would have KOd Froch?
> 
> The point is Ward clearly gassed hard so how would he fare better vs a guy that would exhaust him? Nobody not even Kovalev made Hopkins so tired he needed to fake injury so much.
> 
> Joes resume is his weakness but his skill is obvious. Joe beats Captain Ego Andre Ward.


He gassed because he was schooling Frock with one hand. Can you point to any other fight where Ward got tired?


----------



## The Sweet Science (Jun 5, 2013)

That is a total pick 'em fight! I could realistically see either guy winning, but prime to prime, I'd pick Joe to edge it based on his high level of activity. I'm surprised the OP thinks it would be such a walkover for Ward. Perhaps he is showing his true, casual colors.


----------



## The Sweet Science (Jun 5, 2013)

Manny Steward picked both Lacy and Kessler to beat him, then conceded "He can make adjustments better than any fighter I've ever seen before, I'll never pick against him again"

"Calzaghe is a special, special fighter"

Roy Jones "Make no mistake about it, Joe Calzaghe is a legend"

Thanks for posting these, @The Kraken! Jones and Steward knew what the hell they were talking about and they most definitely were not casuals. lol


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

The Kraken said:


> Manny Steward





The Sweet Science said:


> Manny Steward


Search for Steward's quotes on Jorge Linares.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Talk about a fight that would be ridiculously difficult to actually make. Joe has more "hand injuries" while Ward complains about everything. Andre is rusty now, but still a huge notch above Joe's average opponent, but Joe's workrate was rare.

At the end of the day, if the fight did happen, I think Andre is more likely to make an adjustment mid rounds, like Hopkins only he's not as old and can likely keep up with Joe's workrate a bit more.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Search for Steward's quotes on Jorge Linares.


To be fair Linares is basically perfect if it weren't for his chin, his skin and his defence.


----------



## Divi253 (Jun 4, 2013)

Think it could actually be a good fight.. I don't really like Joe but I can't deny the man won against whoever was put in front of him.. Yes his stoppages early on were hilarious but really his work rate is damn good and would bother Ward IMO. I think Ward can make adjustments to Joe's work rate and slow him down some while upping his own activity a bit, but that's coming from a Ward fan...



Lester1583 said:


> Search for Steward's quotes on Jorge Linares.


:rofl


----------



## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward fought Froch with a broken hand
> http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7384318/andre-ward-had-broken-hand-win-carl-froch


Calzaghe fought the majority of his career with bad hands and wrists... It didn't seem to adversely affect Wards performance as Froch was well within his comfort zone, it wasn't until late that Froch started to get through. If Ward gasses whilst comfortably outboxing someone what happens when he can't dictate the pace of the fight or the distance he operates at? What happens when he meets an opponent that won't let him have everything his own way? It's pretty much a 50/50 and no certain thing either way.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

DOM5153 said:


> Calzaghe fought the majority of his career with bad hands and wrists... It didn't seem to adversely affect Wards performance as Froch was well within his comfort zone, it wasn't until late that Froch started to get through. If Ward gasses whilst comfortably outboxing someone what happens when he can't dictate the pace of the fight or the distance he operates at? What happens when he meets an opponent that won't let him have everything his own way? It's pretty much a 50/50 and no certain thing either way.


Ward gassed because he had a broken hand and reinjured it in the sixth round
By all means point to another fight where Ward notably gassed

Also using your logic if Calzaghe looked horrid vs Robin Reid and was getting dropped and wobbled by an old Hopkins what happens when he fights a young Hopkins clone who wasn't a career middleweight?


----------



## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward gassed because he had a broken hand and reinjured it in the sixth round
> By all means point to another fight where Ward notably gassed
> 
> Also using your logic if Calzaghe looked horrid vs Robin Reid and was getting dropped and wobbled by an old Hopkins what happens when he fights a young Hopkins clone who wasn't a career middleweight?


Career middleweight?? Hopkins was established at the weight and had proven himself to be more than a career middleweight merely operating at light heavyweight. Don't try and pass off me playing devils advocate and asking questions as my logic, I think it's foolish to think Calzaghe wouldn't be anything but the toughest fight for Ward at the weight barring RJJ. Personally I don't think Ward would cope with the pressure and activity that Calzaghe would put him under, plenty of time for Ward to change my opinion.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

DOM5153 said:


> Career middleweight?? Hopkins was established at the weight and had proven himself to be more than a career middleweight merely operating at light heavyweight. Don't try and pass off me playing devils advocate and asking questions as my logic, I think it's foolish to think Calzaghe wouldn't be anything but the toughest fight for Ward at the weight barring RJJ. Personally I don't think Ward would cope with the pressure and activity that Calzaghe would put him under, plenty of time for Ward to change my opinion.


Are you saying Hopkins and Ward are the same size or that Hopkins has near the physical strength of a prime Ward who had Froch begging the ref to break it up against the ropes?

Calzaghes resume at 168 is so atrocious to even begin to conjecture he could beat Ward in my eyes. Even Kessler and Hopkins his best wins gave him fits, whereas Kessler got bullied and lost every round to a 24 year old green Ward and Hopkins outright admitted he could not beat Ward

Ward is too dynamic for Slaps whose super middle weight resume at 27 shits all over his at 40


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

Wasn't kessler having serious problems with his vision before the ward fight and needed operations or is my memory off?


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Dinamita85 said:


> Wasn't kessler having serious problems with his vision before the ward fight and needed operations or is my memory off?


I thought it was after the fight? After all the headbutts, may be wrong though


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Rigondeaux said:


> I browse reddit r/boxing from time to time and this is being discussed over there, surprised to see how many people think Joe has a chance there. The crowd that posts there is leaning towards the casual side so I hope to see this group is a bit more knowledgeable and realizes Ward mops the floor here.
> 
> Discuss.


Cal has a better chance of beating Ward than GGG does.


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> I thought it was after the fight? After all the headbutts, may be wrong though


Its hard to remember isn't it...I remember thinking it was around the time of the bouadla fight... Possibly sartisan?? I may be really wrong here and am too knackered to look for it.. But Im sure he had an injury before the ward fight


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

At the end of the day, these are 2 of the best super middleweights of all time we're talking about. It's be a close fight either way and it's not unreasonable to say "I think X wins" or "I think Y wins."

Not even argument worthy. It's a lovely stylistic match up and unfortunately one that is impossible to see.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Dinamita85 said:


> Its hard to remember isn't it...I remember thinking it was around the time of the bouadla fight... Possibly sartisan?? I may be really wrong here and am too knackered to look for it.. But Im sure he had an injury before the ward fight


Just looked it up, Mikkel himself said he had issues with his vision in training for the Ward fight, by the time he was training for the Allan Green fight, he just couldn't deal with it any longer. Bouadla was his first fight back, I do remember that clearly. Either way, the Kessler that Calzaghe fought was his peak, and he won clearly


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Just looked it up, Mikkel himself said he had issues with his vision in training for the Ward fight, by the time he was training for the Allan Green fight, he just couldn't deal with it any longer. Bouadla was his first fight back, I do remember that clearly. Either way, the Kessler that Calzaghe fought was his peak, and he won clearly


Ward would've tuned Kessler the same whether he had 6 eyes. Ward had a better legacy at 27 than Slaps had his entire career period.


----------



## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Chacal said:


> At the end of the day, these are 2 of the best super middleweights of all time we're talking about. It's be a close fight either way and it's not unreasonable to say "I think X wins" or "I think Y wins."
> 
> Not even argument worthy. It's a lovely stylistic match up and unfortunately one that is impossible to see.


Only missed out on this one by a few years which is even more frustrating. Would have been a very difficult fight to make in reality as neither are renowned for hitting the road and travelling for fights.


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward would've tuned Kessler the same whether he had 6 eyes. Ward had a better legacy at 27 than Slaps had his entire career period.


Are you andre ward... U seem to really dislike Calzaghe haha I think ward wudda beaten kessler peak for peak.. I just don't think it'd have bin the whitewash it was


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Dinamita85 said:


> Are you andre ward... U seem to really dislike Calzaghe haha I think ward wudda beaten kessler peak for peak.. I just don't think it'd have bin the whitewash it was


Ward was a green 24 year old when he slapped Lesser around the ring. I don't know what you mean by peak for peak.

Kessler had the tools to ever trouble Ward period.


----------



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ooo Floyd's gone, how can I try and stay relevant? Ooo I'll root for this black guy like a close minded mug!

FLOORED


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> Ooo Floyd's gone, how can I try and stay relevant? Ooo I'll root for this black guy like a close minded mug!
> 
> FLOORED


Calm down opie


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward was a green 24 year old when he slapped Lesser around the ring. I don't know what you mean by peak for peak.
> 
> Kessler had the tools to ever trouble Ward period.


A supremely talented green 24 year old...I didn't say kessler would have ever bin able the trouble ward.. I sed I don't think it would be the drubbing that it was... But you can't deny a kessler that had problems with his vision and had been out for a while with injury is going to be the best version of kessler... Also styles make fights, because kessler won some rounds against Calzaghe and none against ward doesn't really mean anything, Calzaghe and kessler fight nothing alike.


----------



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Calm down opie


You're just a Muppet mate.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Dinamita85 said:


> A supremely talented green 24 year old...I didn't say kessler would have ever bin able the trouble ward.. I sed I don't think it would be the drubbing that it was... But you can't deny a kessler that had problems with his vision and had been out for a while with injury is going to be the best version of kessler... Also styles make fights, because kessler won some rounds against Calzaghe and none against ward doesn't really mean anything, Calzaghe and kessler fight nothing alike.


Ward schooled Froch with two fractures in his right hand and has won every fight he's been in since he was 11 with a shoulder that needed an operation. I don't put much stock in accuses after the fact.

Suffice to say the line from Calzaghe fans is Kessler was peak when he fought him but knew Ward and Froch do the same he's not peak. Please. All you have to do is look at the caliber of fighters Kessler was beating before he fought Calzaghe and realize he was an OK fighter.

For Ward vs Calzaghe I look at the Hopkins fight and in the end Ward is just a bigger stronger younger opponent than Hopkins who can maul , box and fight southpaw. Joe's lone great win against a old Hopkins who against Taylor and Dawson proved he can be out hustled doesn't show me he can beat Ward. Three years of Wards career completely obliterated Calzaghes entire legacy


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward schooled Froch with two fractures in his right hand and has won every fight he's been in since he was 11 with a shoulder that needed an operation. I don't put much stock in accuses after the fact.
> 
> Suffice to say the line from Calzaghe fans is Kessler was peak when he fought him but knew Ward and Froch do the same he's not peak. Please. All you have to do is look at the caliber of fighters Kessler was beating before he fought Calzaghe and realize he was an OK fighter.
> 
> For Ward vs Calzaghe I look at the Hopkins fight and in the end Ward is just a bigger stronger younger opponent than Hopkins who can maul , box and fight southpaw. Joe's lone great win against a old Hopkins who against Taylor and Dawson proved he can be out hustled doesn't show me he can beat Ward. Three years of Wards career completely obliterated Calzaghes entire legacy


I love that old Hopkins line.. That old Hopkins... Who was number one at lightheavy after dethroning tarver .. Vs an old Calzaghe in his 1St fight at light heavy.

I can see how it would be a hard fight for Calzaghe.. But thinking ward would just walk it...really??

Oh n kesslers injuries were known before the ward fight.. Double vision.. Things like that if memory serves


----------



## Vaitor (Apr 22, 2015)

Im always surprised of the amounts of butthurt that Joe seems to have caused...


----------



## Kurushi (Jun 11, 2013)

Vaitor said:


> Im always surprised of the amounts of butthurt that Joe seems to have caused...


He beat two American modern greats. They may have been past prime but you don't pull that shit without being despised for the rest of eternity.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

well im an american and have absolutely nothing against joe calzaghe


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Kurushi said:


> He beat two American modern greats. They may have been past prime but you don't pull that shit without being despised for the rest of eternity.


may have? Jones was a shell of himself, completely shot as a fighter and hasn't accomplished a notable feat since that fight. Even Joe said he wasn't very good anymore (I believe that is his direct quote).

The Hopkins win, though, aged pretty well. Not a prime Hopkins, but a decent representation of the man.

What creates the backlash are people who over rate Joe as some type of world beater (Bailey and crew) rather than let people call it like it is: Joe was a decent fighter with a really thin resume.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Dinamita85 said:


> I love that old Hopkins line.. That old Hopkins... Who was number one at lightheavy after dethroning tarver .. Vs an old Calzaghe in his 1St fight at light heavy.
> 
> I can see how it would be a hard fight for Calzaghe.. But thinking ward would just walk it...really??
> 
> Oh n kesslers injuries were known before the ward fight.. Double vision.. Things like that if memory serves


I loved the clip of Kessler saying he had double vision while driving himself and his team to an event. Really sold me on the injury.


----------



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

JeffJoiner said:


> may have? Jones was a shell of himself, completely shot as a fighter and hasn't accomplished a notable feat since that fight. Even Joe said he wasn't very good anymore (I believe that is his direct quote).
> 
> The Hopkins win, though, aged pretty well. Not a prime Hopkins, but a decent representation of the man.
> 
> What creates the backlash are people who over rate Joe as some type of world beater (Bailey and crew) rather than let people call it like it is: Joe was a decent fighter with a really thin resume.


A decent fighter?

Try this quote instead :

Joe was a head to head nightmare who's ability outweighs his resume.


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> I loved the clip of Kessler saying he had double vision while driving himself and his team to an event. Really sold me on the injury.


I imagine you have to concentrate on the road harder if you have double vision haha


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Dinamita85 said:


> I imagine you have to concentrate on the road harder if you have double vision haha


Haha.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> A decent fighter?
> 
> Try this quote instead :
> 
> Joe was a head to head nightmare who's ability outweighs his resume.


Joe had speed and awkward angles. Those would present problems. He also had defensive flaws and absolutely no power (and don't give me that "before the hand injuries" stuff because even then his power was sub par).

Head to head, he would cause some problems for a lot of guys, I'll grant you that. But he and his father obviously knew his ability quite well and matched him accordingly. There's a string of quotes from "I know my limitations" to the most damning "I'm not looking for tough fights" that clearly explain why is resume is so thin.

Overall, if not for his 0, he'd hardly be noteworthy in the annals of boxing outside of Wales.


----------



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

JeffJoiner said:


> Joe had speed and awkward angles. Those would present problems. He also had defensive flaws and absolutely no power (and don't give me that "before the hand injuries" stuff because even then his power was sub par).
> 
> Head to head, he would cause some problems for a lot of guys, I'll grant you that. But he and his father obviously knew his ability quite well and matched him accordingly. There's a string of quotes from "I know my limitations" to the most damning "I'm not looking for tough fights" that clearly explain why is resume is so thin.
> 
> Overall, if not for his 0, he'd hardly be noteworthy in the annals of boxing outside of Wales.


Speed and angles? You're over simplifying things. Speed, angles, activity, stamina, intelligence (Under rated. People are harping on about how Ward can adjust? Watch Calzaghe's career.)

Enzo had fuck all to do with matching him, it's Frank Warren who didn't market him properly. We can get in to the whole Hopkins wanting a fortune to fight Calzaghe another time. Yes, he only got the higher profile matchups towards the end, when he himself as a fighter was past his peak. The two quotes you list are totally out of context, which makes me wonder if you've read the book in question, or if you're just parroting them back. I know my limitations was in reference to wanting to be paid well to fight a peak Roy Jones Junior. Superman.

If not for his 0 he'd be a footnote? How ridiculous. Comments like that are why fighters protect their records so vigorously in the damn first place. Because a loss seems them relegated to a 'foot note' by agenda ridden keyboard huggers. If you give him a loss, and then resume his career trajectory, he's still a decade long piece of super middleweight history.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> Speed and angles? You're over simplifying things. Speed, angles, activity, stamina, intelligence (Under rated. People are harping on about how Ward can adjust? Watch Calzaghe's career.)
> 
> Enzo had fuck all to do with matching him, it's Frank Warren who didn't market him properly. We can get in to the whole Hopkins wanting a fortune to fight Calzaghe another time. Yes, he only got the higher profile matchups towards the end, when he himself as a fighter was past his peak. The two quotes you list are totally out of context, which makes me wonder if you've read the book in question, or if you're just parroting them back. I know my limitations was in reference to wanting to be paid well to fight a peak Roy Jones Junior. Superman.
> 
> If not for his 0 he'd be a footnote? How ridiculous. Comments like that are why fighters protect their records so vigorously in the damn first place. Because a loss seems them relegated to a 'foot note' by agenda ridden keyboard huggers. If you give him a loss, and then resume his career trajectory, he's still a decade long piece of super middleweight history.


I knew you'd call me out for missing adjustments. Yes, he had that trait.

I don't care about 0s. But, in Joe's case that was his only ticket to the HOF. You can't tell me he waltzes in if he loses to a faded Hopkins and only has Kessler as a premier win. A loss to Hopkins and he never even gets his third best win over the shell of Jones. And he obviously knew his limitations regarding a prime Jones.

I've read excerpts of the book, but not the whole thing. No need. His career speaks for itself, for better and worse. My general impression of Joe has improved, but I've seen far, far better fighters, many of whom don't have fanboys touting them as half the fighter Joe is touted to be.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Calzaghe has a helluva chin I give him that. Yeesh. That's some Mayorga level defending


----------



## Felix (Mar 13, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward schooled Froch with two fractures in his right hand and has won every fight he's been in since he was 11 with a shoulder that needed an operation. I don't put much stock in accuses after the fact.
> 
> Suffice to say the line from Calzaghe fans is Kessler was peak when he fought him but knew Ward and Froch do the same he's not peak. Please. All you have to do is look at the caliber of fighters Kessler was beating before he fought Calzaghe and realize he was an OK fighter.
> 
> For Ward vs Calzaghe I look at the Hopkins fight and in the end *Ward is just a bigger stronger younger opponent than Hopkins* who can maul , box and fight southpaw. Joe's lone great win against a old Hopkins who against Taylor and Dawson proved he can be out hustled doesn't show me he can beat Ward. Three years of Wards career completely obliterated Calzaghes entire legacy


Yet he complained about people expecting him to move to 175, and was calling out a middleweight... :gsg

Your logic is floored.


----------



## Felix (Mar 13, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> I knew you'd call me out for missing adjustments. Yes, he had that trait.
> 
> I don't care about 0s. But, in Joe's case that was his only ticket to the HOF. You can't tell me he waltzes in if he loses to a faded Hopkins and only has Kessler as a premier win. A loss to Hopkins and he never even gets his third best win over the shell of Jones. And he obviously knew his limitations regarding a prime Jones.
> 
> I've read excerpts of the book, but not the whole thing. No need. His career speaks for itself, for better and worse. My general impression of Joe has improved, but I've seen far, far better fighters, many of whom don't have fanboys touting them as half the fighter Joe is touted to be.


If he'd lost to Hopkins he'd be lacking one of his best wins. However, if he'd lost early on in his career but still had the same later successes, I don't see that not being undefeated would've been such a big deal. Loma would be a good example of this way of thinking, as would Nelson, and Pacquiao.


----------



## Kurushi (Jun 11, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> may have? Jones was a shell of himself, completely shot as a fighter and hasn't accomplished a notable feat since that fight. Even Joe said he wasn't very good anymore (I believe that is his direct quote).
> 
> The Hopkins win, though, aged pretty well. Not a prime Hopkins, but a decent representation of the man.
> 
> What creates the backlash are people who over rate Joe as some type of world beater (Bailey and crew) rather than let people call it like it is: Joe was a decent fighter with a really thin resume.


No, it's not just on this forum it's_ every_ forum. Calzaghe is a very polarising name wherever the conversation is happening. He doesn't even get that much hype. I've seen maybe one or two crazy people call him an ATG but other than that people who are big fans of his generally just call him a very good fighter which he clearly was and rate him quite highly head-to-head which is reasonable. If what you're saying was true then any fighter that gets hyped as a world beater who doesn't have a particularly deep resume would be equally as divisive. They're not. There's obviously something else about Calzaghe that rubs people the wrong way and I think that it's because he retired undefeated after beating Hopkins and Jones.

Like I said, Hopkins wasn't prime. He was, however, top 5 pound for pound in Ring magazine iirc. Would I pick a past prime Ward against an April 2008 version of Hopkins? I'm not sure, we'll have to see how Ward develops as a fighter I suppose.

I like Ward, I picked him earlier in this thread to beat Calzaghe prime-for-prime but, as the years roll on, his own resume is getting thinner and thinner. I'm nervous about Ward vs. Kovalev not happening for one reason or another but I really hope it does because it will be Ward's defining win. If Ward was to retire right now then I'm not sure I'd even rate his resume over Froch's or Calzaghe's.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

Felix said:


> Yet he complained about people expecting him to move to 175, and was calling out _*a middleweight*_... :gsg
> 
> Your logic is floored.


middleweight(s)

he was scheduled to fight career 160 pavlik, who had already been absolutely schooled by hopkins at 170 and also called out 160 chavez...immediately after julio just lost to sergio no less

the super six was a great accomplishment but everything after that is very questionable


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Felix said:


> Yet he complained about people expecting him to move to 175, and was calling out a middleweight... :gsg
> 
> Your logic is floored.


He wanted to move to light heavy weight on his own accord, and immediately challenged the best fighter in the division.

Compare that to Sloppy Joe who held a meaningless strap at 168 for a decade and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fight Jeff Lacy :rofl

Wards resume shits on the Slaps. U mad Connor?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Kurushi said:


> No, it's not just on this forum it's_ every_ forum. Calzaghe is a very polarising name wherever the conversation is happening. He doesn't even get that much hype. I've seen maybe one or two crazy people call him an ATG but other than that people who are big fans of his generally just call him a very good fighter which he clearly was and rate him quite highly head-to-head which is reasonable. If what you're saying was true then any fighter that gets hyped as a world beater who doesn't have a particularly deep resume would be equally as divisive. They're not. There's obviously something else about Calzaghe that rubs people the wrong way and I think that it's because he retired undefeated after beating Hopkins and Jones.
> 
> Like I said, Hopkins wasn't prime. He was, however, top 5 pound for pound in Ring magazine iirc. Would I pick a past prime Ward against an April 2008 version of Hopkins? I'm not sure, we'll have to see how Ward develops as a fighter I suppose.
> 
> I like Ward, I picked him earlier in this thread to beat Calzaghe prime-for-prime but, as the years roll on, his own resume is getting thinner and thinner. I'm nervous about Ward vs. Kovalev not happening for one reason or another but I really hope it does because it will be Ward's defining win. If Ward was to retire right now then I'm not sure I'd even rate his resume over Froch's or Calzaghe's.


If you don't rate Wards resume over Frochs youre an idiot. :rofl

Calzaghes paper thin resume isn't even on the discussion absolutely atrocious match making by his team until he put his big boy pants on to fight Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins and slap around a shot to pieces Roy Jones

I'm interested to know what's this prime Joe Calzaghe BTW. The one who was beating Robin Reid by the skin of his teeth? Or the one for 15 years after that fight fought nobody of note. How can we say a fighters prime or peak when he fights nobody worth a damn?


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> He wanted to move to light heavy weight on his own accord, and *immediately challenged the best fighter in the division.*
> 
> Compare that to Sloppy Joe who held a meaningless strap at 168 for a decade and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fight Jeff Lacy :rofl
> 
> Wards resume shits on the Slaps. U mad Connor?


Shit did I miss the Kovalev fight? Fuck sake, I thought it had been a while since he fought last when he got in there with Paul Smith, now I realise I missed him immediately challenging the division's number 1 fighter, just like Calzaghe did. HBO sure kept that fight quiet, huh?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

JamieC said:


> Shit did I miss the Kovalev fight? Fuck sake, I thought it had been a while since he fought last when he got in there with Paul Smith, now I realise I missed him immediately challenging the division's number 1 fighter, just like Calzaghe did. HBO sure kept that fight quiet, huh?


http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/i...s-part-three-fight-deal-ending-sergey-kovalev

I should say immediately inks a deal to fight the best on the division.

BTW on the subject of Paul Smith wouldn't that be one of Calzaghed better wins? Up there with his wins over Tucker Pudwill and his sensational rivalry with Mario Veit?


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/i...s-part-three-fight-deal-ending-sergey-kovalev
> 
> I should say immediately inks a deal to fight the best on the division.
> 
> BTW on the subject of Paul Smith wouldn't that be one of Calzaghed better wins? Up there with his wins over Tucker Pudwill and his sensational rivalry with Mario Veit?


I'll believe it when it happens. Joe didn't need to build up to 175, he just stepped up and became king of the division, but not everybody has that natural talent I guess.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

JamieC said:


> I'll believe it when it happens. Joe didn't need to build up to 175, he just stepped up and became king of the division, but not everybody has that natural talent I guess.


After actively avoiding the best for a decade and a half I think everyone was pleasantly surprised when Joe worked up the courage to face down an old Hopkins and then finish his sensational legendary career by fighting the icon Roy Jones jr . You beat a legend you become a legend you know


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> After actively avoiding the best for a decade and a half I think everyone was pleasantly surprised when Joe worked up the courage to face down an old Hopkins and then finish his sensational legendary career by fighting the icon Roy Jones jr . You beat a legend you become a legend you know


Hey like I said, not knocking Ward, not everybody can win the lineal title in their first fight at the weight, some need to fight domestic fighters from the weight below at catchweights, but I'm sure he'll get there eventually, just needs to work twice as hard to make up for the talent deficit between him and Joe, but that will make his success taste even sweeter :good


----------



## Felix (Mar 13, 2013)

JamieC said:


> Shit did I miss the Kovalev fight? Fuck sake, I thought it had been a while since he fought last when he got in there with Paul Smith, now I realise I missed him immediately challenging the division's number 1 fighter, just like Calzaghe did. HBO sure kept that fight quiet, huh?


Yeah but the prestige of a win over Hopkins is directly proportional to the amount of melanin in Calzaghe's skin, at least in MWWorld.


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Felix said:


> Yeah but the prestige of a win over Hopkins is directly proportional to the amount of melanin in Calzaghe's skin, at least in MWWorld.


----------



## Drew (Jan 6, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward fought Froch with a broken hand
> http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7384318/andre-ward-had-broken-hand-win-carl-froch


Is that why he was using his head against Kessler? He broke both hands?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

JeffJoiner said:


> may have? Jones was a shell of himself, completely shot as a fighter and hasn't accomplished a notable feat since that fight. Even Joe said he wasn't very good anymore (I believe that is his direct quote).
> 
> The Hopkins win, though, aged pretty well. Not a prime Hopkins, but a decent representation of the man.
> 
> What creates the backlash are people who over rate Joe as some type of world beater (Bailey and crew) rather than let people call it like it is: Joe was a decent fighter with a really thin resume.


_Decent?_ Skill wise, he was a bit better than that.


----------



## Drew (Jan 6, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> He wanted to move to light heavy weight on his own accord,


Actually he said he will move up when his body grows in to the division, even though he won a gold medal at the Olympics at LHW when he was 20...

If it wasn't for the super 6 he would still be fighting in Oakland in front of 200 people waiting for a champion to come to him.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> _Decent?_ Skill wise, he was a bit better than that.


Defensively he was mediocre. Offensively he was one the best to ever do it. However if you watch the link I posted to the Kessler fight he would have been on trouble with a lot of greats with that atrocious defending, his beard saved him vs Kessler. Even Froch wasn't taking those kinds of shots


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Drew said:


> Actually he said he will move up when his body grows in to the division, even though he won a gold medal at the Olympics at LHW when he was 20...
> 
> If it wasn't for the super 6 he would still be fighting in Oakland in front of 200 people waiting for a champion to come to him.


Thank god for the super six that he was able to expose so many Europeans before they could duck him


----------



## Drew (Jan 6, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Thank god for the super six that he was able to expose so many Europeans before they could duck him


Yes because he's well known for challenging himself and fighting the best as the last 3 years have shown. That's the difference between him and Froch, he is a lot more talented but doesn't challenge himself, that's why Carl earned 10x more money and had more fans.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Drew said:


> Yes because he's well known for challenging himself and fighting the best as the last 3 years have shown. That's the difference between him and Froch, he is a lot more talented but doesn't challenge himself, that's why Carl earned 10x more money and had more fans.


10 times more money :rofl

Tell me after clearing out 168, who was Ward supposed to fight?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Defensively he was mediocre. Offensively he was one the best to ever do it. However if you watch the link I posted to the Kessler fight he would have been on trouble with a lot of greats with that atrocious defending, his beard saved him vs Kessler. Even Froch wasn't taking those kinds of shots


I don't need to watch it, I was there.

I don't think he was that exceptional offensively, and I agree that his defence wasn't all that either.

His footwork was very good though, he has fast hands for a man his size and a good boxing brain to go along with how awkward he was.

I don't consider him an all-time great or anything like it--and not sure whether I'd have him over Ward in my SMW top ten--but there's no denying he'd be a horrible night for anyone not named Roy Jones that ever competed at the modern super middleweight limit.


----------



## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> After actively avoiding the best for a decade and a half I think everyone was pleasantly surprised when Joe worked up the courage to face down an old Hopkins and then finish his sensational legendary career by fighting the icon Roy Jones jr . You beat a legend you become a legend you know


:rofl

Both Hopkins and RJJ turned down record money to face Joe in the early 2000's and went on to face sub par opposition instead.

The thought of Calzaghe being scared of Hopkins is simply laughable.


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> 10 times more money :rofl
> 
> Tell me after clearing out 168, who was Ward supposed to fight?


Go to light heavy and unify maybe higher still? ? Go for greatness.. Like his talent is clearly capable of. He's wasting his prime

It's my regret about Calzaghe that he didn't challenge himself earlier.. But as is well documented not alot of people were in a rush to face him either.. I personally think anybodies main gripe with these 2 it should be that calzaghe didn't come along a few years later or ward a few years earlier so we could've actually seen them fight.


----------



## Felix (Mar 13, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> 10 times more money :rofl
> 
> Tell me after clearing out 168, who was Ward supposed to fight?


*yawn* Since when did 2.5 good wins = clearing out a division? :huh


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> _Decent?_ Skill wise, he was a bit better than that.


I'll agree. "Solid" would have been a better choice there. Solid speed, stamina, ability to make adjustments. Horrible power and pedestrian defense.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

JeffJoiner said:


> I'll agree. "Solid" would have been a better choice there. Solid speed, stamina, ability to make adjustments. Horrible power and pedestrian defense.


There are plenty of brilliant fighters--greater than Calzaghe by some distance--with no power and a pedestrian defence.

His speed and ability to make adjustments are a bit more than solid in my opinion.

A bad summary in general in my opinion, and as already stated I don't think Calzaghe is all that great.

Oh, and Calzaghe hurt Kessler with a single body shot. He's hardly Malignaggi when it comes to power.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Kurushi said:


> No, it's not just on this forum it's_ every_ forum. Calzaghe is a very polarising name wherever the conversation is happening. He doesn't even get that much hype. I've seen maybe one or two crazy people call him an ATG but other than that people who are big fans of his generally just call him a very good fighter which he clearly was and rate him quite highly head-to-head which is reasonable. If what you're saying was true then any fighter that gets hyped as a world beater who doesn't have a particularly deep resume would be equally as divisive. They're not. There's obviously something else about Calzaghe that rubs people the wrong way and I think that it's because he retired undefeated after beating Hopkins and Jones.
> 
> Like I said, Hopkins wasn't prime. He was, however, top 5 pound for pound in Ring magazine iirc. Would I pick a past prime Ward against an April 2008 version of Hopkins? I'm not sure, we'll have to see how Ward develops as a fighter I suppose.
> 
> I like Ward, I picked him earlier in this thread to beat Calzaghe prime-for-prime but, as the years roll on, his own resume is getting thinner and thinner. I'm nervous about Ward vs. Kovalev not happening for one reason or another but I really hope it does because it will be Ward's defining win. If Ward was to retire right now then I'm not sure I'd even rate his resume over Froch's or Calzaghe's.


You make good points. He's more polarizing than most fighters. People can detract from Mayweather and Marciano's undefeated resumes without creating a shit storm. Part of it is that Mayweather's resume so thoroughly trounces Joe's there's no comparison.

For me, personally, it was ESB. Those guys touted Joe as an ATG ad nauseum and it made the forum suck. My impression of Joe has improved quite a bit since leaving there.

Here I am, saying he's a solid fighter, and getting shit, though. Solid is where he ranks. Two nice wins, a titlist in a pretty talent barren division. Solid skills. That's a solid, not ATG or HOF level fighter, IMO.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Back to the topic of the thread, Ward and Calzaghe against Kessler, namely the first half of the fight.

Ward vs Kessler









As you can see, Ward is in full control of the fight from the outset and is controlling the pace of the fight. Kessler tries to come forward, Ward backs up, Kessler tries to counter, Ward presses, Ward beat Kessler up from the outside and the inside. Ward immediately diagnosed that Kessler has poor head movement and pulls straight back so out of the southpaw stance he'd shoot the right low, then throw a left to the midsection, then finish up with another right upstairs.

This is something that Ward has over Floyd. Ward can switch hit and unlike Floyd doesnt need to fall in when shooting the lead left or the lead right. He is essentially never out of a position so unlike Floyd who has been caught a few times falling in while shooting the right upstairs and having to reset before being able to follow up with another punch, Ward is always in position to attack or defend. Ward is simply one of the best in the game at starting low and finishing up top










It was a complete white wash from the opening bell, Kessler never stood a chance










Now for Calzaghe vs Kessler we see a completely different fight at least in the first half






Calzaghe spends the first half of the fight barreling in, guard loose, sometimes at his waist, and Kessler is simply making him pay. 2:29 of the video there is a perfect example, Calzaghe drops his hands trying to clown and Calzaghe is lucky he isnt KO'd right then and there. Again his chin saved him in this fight, that right hand from Kessler puts most fighters to sleep a credit to Calzaghe's will but not to his intelligence.

Now at 3:45 can you Calzaghe fans tell me what the hell this is and how this in any way inspires confidence in your fighter against someone like Ward? Again Kessler catches Calzaghe with a straight right, and Calzaghe loses his shit, he barrels in and throws a series of punches that would make Deontay Wilder cringe. I am immediately reminded of








[/URL][/IMG]

It was a scratch and sniff affair through most of the fight until Calzaghe adjusted and cut with the theatrics and the improvisation and was reduced to boxing like a boxer is supposed to. It reminded me alot of the Pacquiao Bradley 2 fight where Bradley was taking advantage of Pacquiaos recklessness and only after Pacquiao settled down and boxed traditionally did he have success

Suffice to say, I dont see the merits in Calzaghe being able to improvise against someone with the technical abilities of Ward. He would be reduced to getting in a chess match with Ward, and while that worked against a fighter who cant make adjustments is fairly one dimensional like Kessler, it would be right in Wards wheel house and Ward just has too many dimensions in his game for Calzaghe to overcome.

I see Calzaghe losing the first 5 rounds, playing catch up the rest of the way, while Ward picks his spots and coasts to a 9-3 8-4 type clear decision.


----------



## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Back to the topic of the thread, Ward and Calzaghe against Kessler, namely the first half of the fight.
> 
> Ward vs Kessler
> 
> ...


Ward struggled his ass off with Sakio Bika.

Calzaghe beat him easily.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

TFG said:


> Ward struggled his ass off with Sakio Bika.
> 
> Calzaghe beat him easily.


No he didnt. Ward caught most of Bikas punches on his gloves and the ones that did get through were usually behind the head. Ward won that fight going away against a guy its impossible to look good against, if you are trying to compare it to Calzaghe getting throttled by Kessler in spots, dont.


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

Again..Calzaghe and kessler fight nowt alike... N Its easy to show gifs of fighters mate... Someone can turn round n say wards chin saved him v darnell boone... N calzaghe's chin saved him v Hopkins... There just none arguments

Does ward have the w against boone...Yes

Does calz have the w against Hopkins.. Yes


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Dinamita85 said:


> Again..Calzaghe and kessler fight nowt alike... N Its easy to show gifs of fighters mate... Someone can turn round n say wards chin saved him v darnell boone... N calzaghe's chin saved him v Hopkins... There just none arguments


It shows Calzaghes flaws and Wards strengths pure and simple. I mean if Kessler was able to so easily penetrate Calzaghes defense what would a multi-faceted technician like Ward do?

How about this, I want you to explain to me how Calzaghe beats Ward.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Kurushi said:


> No, it's not just on this forum it's_ every_ forum. Calzaghe is a very polarising name wherever the conversation is happening. He doesn't even get that much hype. I've seen maybe one or two crazy people call him an ATG but other than that people who are big fans of his generally just call him a very good fighter which he clearly was and rate him quite highly head-to-head which is reasonable. If what you're saying was true then any fighter that gets hyped as a world beater who doesn't have a particularly deep resume would be equally as divisive. They're not. There's obviously something else about Calzaghe that rubs people the wrong way and I think that it's because he retired undefeated after beating Hopkins and Jones.
> 
> Like I said, Hopkins wasn't prime. He was, however, top 5 pound for pound in Ring magazine iirc. Would I pick a past prime Ward against an April 2008 version of Hopkins? I'm not sure, we'll have to see how Ward develops as a fighter I suppose.
> 
> I like Ward, I picked him earlier in this thread to beat Calzaghe prime-for-prime but, as the years roll on, his own resume is getting thinner and thinner. I'm nervous about Ward vs. Kovalev not happening for one reason or another but I really hope it does because it will be Ward's defining win. If Ward was to retire right now then I'm not sure I'd even rate his resume over Froch's or Calzaghe's.


I think it's cos he doesn't look textbook when he throws his punches, as well as the obvious point of his resume being weak until the end of his career


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Anyway, I think Calzaghe isn't as good a fighter as Ward, but nicks it


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Calzaghe struggled with Bika much more than Ward.

Bika was more of an unknown quantity at that stage though.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> It shows Calzaghes flaws and Wards strengths pure and simple. I mean if Kessler was able to so easily penetrate Calzaghes defense what would a multi-faceted technician like Ward do?
> 
> How about this, I want you to explain to me how Calzaghe beats Ward.


They're totally different fighters.


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> It shows Calzaghes flaws and Wards strengths pure and simple. I mean if Kessler was able to so easily penetrate Calzaghes defense what would a multi-faceted technician like Ward do?
> 
> How about this, I want you to explain to me how Calzaghe beats Ward.


I cudnt do any better than Brighton bombers post earlier in the thread... Exactly why I quoted it earlier... Plus the fact u keep slagging off a win over an old Hopkins who was the number one light heavy.. When the win looks better as time goes on makes me think your just trolling to get a reaction outta Calzaghe fans.

And once again.. Styles make fights


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> They're totally different fighters.


There is nothing Kessler was doing that Ward couldn't replicate. Shoot the right hand when Calzaghe ducks low, short left hook she he inevitably loses discipline bull rushes forward and squares up ect except Ward has more dimensions and is defensively superior. Kessler can fight at one range, outside he's ok, inside he's non existent. Ward is exceptional at all ranges.

Calzaghe is going to spend the entire fight adapting while losing slot of rounds


----------



## Kurushi (Jun 11, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> You make good points. He's more polarizing than most fighters. People can detract from Mayweather and Marciano's undefeated resumes without creating a shit storm. Part of it is that Mayweather's resume so thoroughly trounces Joe's there's no comparison.
> 
> For me, personally, it was ESB. Those guys touted Joe as an ATG ad nauseum and it made the forum suck. My impression of Joe has improved quite a bit since leaving there.
> 
> Here I am, saying he's a solid fighter, and getting shit, though. Solid is where he ranks. Two nice wins, a titlist in a pretty talent barren division. Solid skills. That's a solid, not ATG or HOF level fighter, IMO.


Yeah, ESB was mostly a shit hole. Haven't been back since I found this place. Funnily enough my opinion of Joe has lessened a bit over the years but I was a big fan back in the day and still like him a lot. The HOF thing is tricky though because I don't really think he belongs there either but they're adding 3 people a year so given how they operate I can understand why he's there.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> I think it's cos *he doesn't look textbook when he throws his punches,* as well as the obvious point of his resume being weak until the end of his career


The first time I saw him, I was like "what?"


----------



## Drew (Jan 6, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> 10 times more money :rofl
> 
> Tell me after clearing out 168, who was Ward supposed to fight?


Yep 10 times more, Ward has a net worth of $2m while Carl has $20m, there are various sources reporting the same figure. Why is that even surprising? Ward's last fight was on BET and 300 family members while Carl fought on PPV and nearly 80,000, Carl earned more in that fight then Ward has in his entire career (boxer and commentator).

He should have fought Bute, who at the time was considered no.2 in the division, then move up to LHW.

Maybe I rate him higher then you because I'm not happy that a man who fought and won an Olympic gold medal at LHW when he was 20 is going to be 32 by the time he fights for a world title at the same weight. 
If you don't think he's P4P top 10 then fair enough but if you think like me he's top 5 then like all elite fighters he should have moved up in weight and showed how great he is. Look at how many weight divisions elite fighters move up from when they are 20, all I wanted is for him to go to the division where he finished his AM career.


----------



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

After the super six, if he'd of manned up and fought Chad Dawson (An easy fight for him) at 175, then continued on from there, he'd be the best fighter in the world right now, an incredibly rich man and a certain entry to the HOF.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Drew said:


> Yep 10 times more, Ward has a net worth of $2m while Carl has $20m, there are various sources reporting the same figure. Why is that even surprising? Ward's last fight was on BET and 300 family members while Carl fought on PPV and nearly 80,000, Carl earned more in that fight then Ward has in his entire career (boxer and commentator).
> 
> He should have fought Bute, who at the time was considered no.2 in the division, then move up to LHW.
> 
> ...


Wards purses last three fights

Paul Smith - 2,000,000

Edwin Rodriguez - 1.9 million + 100K Rodriguez misses weight

Chad Dawson - 1. 4 million

So that's 5.4 million in 3 fights. So how do you arrive at the 2 million figure

Froch earned that much money because British fans will pay to see anything . There's is a reason Froch retired without fighting in America again because Americans only want to see the best and Froch fighting Chavez would've done about what Golovkin fighting lemuiex did if not worse. Ricky Hatton is one of the richest fighters in British history enough said

As for your assertion Ward should move up to prove his greatness you admitting that Cazlaghe was an underachieving waste of talent who spent most of his career fighting bums and defending a meaningless WBO belt?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

BTW attendance at the Oracle was 10,000 vs Paul Smith which is about what Ward averages per fight in his hometown which would out him near the top of US fighters. 


Your hero Froch could've got his ass beat the UK in front of his fans too but for some reason his team never reached out to ward. Odd


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

Drew said:


> Yep 10 times more, Ward has a net worth of $2m while Carl has $20m, there are various sources reporting the same figure. Why is that even surprising? Ward's last fight was on BET and 300 family members while Carl fought on PPV and nearly 80,000, Carl earned more in that fight then Ward has in his entire career (boxer and commentator).
> 
> He should have fought Bute, who at the time was considered no.2 in the division, then move up to LHW.
> 
> ...


most fighters go down in weight from the olympics. Moreover, Ward may have been fighting at 178 to make room for Dirrell at 165.

Hopkins moved up when he was 40. Calzaghe, 35. Froch, never.

Ward on the contrary cleaned out SMW at 29 and is fighting the pound for pound #2 at LHW this year.

So I'm not quite sure what you're going on about.


----------



## Drew (Jan 6, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Wards purses last three fights Paul Smith - 2,000,000 Edwin Rodriguez - 1.9 million + 100K Rodriguez misses weight Chad Dawson - 1. 4 million So that's 5.4 million in 3 fights. So how do you arrive at the 2 million figure Froch earned that much money because British fans will pay to see anything . There's is a reason Froch retired without fighting in America again because Americans only want to see the best and Froch fighting Chavez would've done about what Golovkin fighting lemuiex did if not worse. Ricky Hatton is one of the richest fighters in British history enough said As for your assertion Ward should move up to prove his greatness you admitting that Cazlaghe was an underachieving waste of talent who spent most of his career fighting bums and defending a meaningless WBO belt?


 Hahaha "Froch earned that much money because British fans will pay to see anything" Shall we tally up how many PPV's there are in America compared to Brittan? Why hasn't Ward fought on PPV? You have about 15 of those every year.

There was 7,600 to see him beat a weight drained Dawson http://www.badlefthook.com/2012/9/1...ers-live-gate-attendance-paid-hbo-boxing-news

9,000 for Smith http://itrboxing.com/2015/06/21/andre-ward-destroys-paul-smith-in-hometown-return/

4,100 against Rodriguez http://thecomeback.com/queensberryr...turns-essentially-blanks-edwin-rodriguez.html

So that's his last 3 fights where is the 10,000 average?

Yes Joe should have done more with his career but I don't consider him as good as Ward. Ward should have done more with his ability, don't you get it? Don't you agree? Don't you think he should have moved up to LHW sooner? Even the Nevada state commission refused to sanction a fight they had lined up recently because it was a complete mismatch.

As for Ward wanting to fight Froch in England that was just BS, he said he would only fight him at Wembley but there's no way 80,000 would go to see that fight, Froch said fight in Nottingham but Ward said no because he didn't think he would get a fair shake, how would it be any different then Wembley????


----------



## Drew (Jan 6, 2016)

conradically said:


> most fighters go down in weight from the olympics. Moreover, Ward may have been fighting at 178 to make room for Dirrell at 165.
> 
> Hopkins moved up when he was 40. Calzaghe, 35. Froch, never.
> 
> ...


Hopkins moved up 2 divisions and fought Tarver, Ward cleaned up his division at 29 and 3 years later still. hasn't fought a decent LHW and Nevada refused to sanction a mismatch they had lined up.

Joe moved up and fought the best in the division in his first fight.
Well done in showing how Ward has taken so long to move up after clearing out 168 3 years ago and attempting to fight nobodies even after fighting the pathetic Paul Smith
.
Now should I give you a list of boxers who moved up in weight from when they were 20 and won multiple world titles like PBF, ODLH, SSM, Sweet pea.... They are boxers who moved up and challenged themselves.


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

Drew said:


> Hopkins moved up 2 divisions and fought Tarver, Ward cleaned up his division at 29 and 3 years later still. hasn't fought a decent LHW and Nevada refused to sanction a mismatch they had lined up.
> 
> Joe moved up and fought the best in the division in his first fight.
> Well done in showing how Ward has taken so long to move up after clearing out 168 3 years ago and attempting to fight nobodies even after fighting the pathetic Paul Smith
> ...


Hopkins was 40 when he moved up. 40. 40 is 8 years more than 32. Joe was 35 when he fought a 43 year old Hopkins followed by a shot-to-hell RJJ.

Andre Ward is 32 and is going to fight a P4P monster this year. If he wins, he'll be P4P #1 .


----------



## Drew (Jan 6, 2016)

conradically said:


> Hopkins was 40 when he moved up. 40. 40 is 8 years more than 32. Joe was 35 when he fought a 43 year old Hopkins followed by a shot-to-hell RJJ.
> 
> Andre Ward is 32 and is going to fight a P4P monster this year. If he wins, he'll be P4P #1 .


You mean Ward has "promised" to fight Kova after he fights a couple more SMW journeymen at LHW. Ward is good at getting out of contracts so until he's in the ring with Kovalev I'll just cringe as he continues his bum of the year tour.

why do you keep comparing him to Bhop and Joe? Why not all the other names I mentioned? 99% move up from when they are 20.

BTW when Joe was 20 he just moved up from WW to JMW so when he was 32 he already moved up 2 weight divisions not down a division as Ward has.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

conradically said:


> Hopkins was 40 when he moved up. 40. 40 is 8 years more than 32. Joe was 35 when he fought a 43 year old Hopkins followed by a shot-to-hell RJJ.
> 
> Andre Ward is 32 and is going to fight a P4P monster this year. If he wins, he'll be P4P #1 .


He might not be. Gonzalez may rematch similarly ranked (in a P4P sense) Estrada, or might move up and fight similarly scary Naoya Inoue.


----------



## One to watch (Jun 5, 2013)

Amazing how dull these super middle arguments are,yet how much interest they get.


----------



## One to watch (Jun 5, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> I'll agree. "Solid" would have been a better choice there. Solid speed, stamina, ability to make adjustments. Horrible power and pedestrian defense.


Calzaghe could bang.

You obviously haven't seen any of the first half or more of his career.

He had to change his style because his hands were so brittle.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

One to watch said:


> Calzaghe could bang.
> 
> You obviously haven't seen any of the first half or more of his career.
> 
> He had to change his style because his hands were so brittle.


I watched a couple of his early fights. More of the "I didn't see that coming" type of damage than brute force. But he wasn't laying guys out, even before the hands.

IMO, it doesn't matter how you hurt a guy, though, as long as you hurt him. A quick, well timed shot still hurts.


----------



## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> I watched a couple of his early fights. More of the "I didn't see that coming" type of damage than brute force. But he wasn't laying guys out, even before the hands.
> 
> IMO, it doesn't matter how you hurt a guy, though, as long as you hurt him. A quick, well timed shot still hurts.


Calzaghe was laying out guys in the amateurs with one punch KOs, he was known as a banger from being a young lad.

Your observation is simply incorrect, he WAS laying guys out before his hand injuries, that's a fact. You're statement about them not seeing it coming is just stupid, its like saying Pacquiao was never really a big puncher because of how quick he was.

He could punch, end of.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

TFG said:


> Calzaghe was laying out guys in the amateurs with one punch KOs, he was known as a banger from being a young lad.
> 
> Your observation is simply incorrect, he WAS laying guys out before his hand injuries, that's a fact. You're statement about them not seeing it coming is just stupid, its like saying Pacquiao was never really a big puncher because of how quick he was.
> 
> ...


Absolutely brutal stuff here:


----------



## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

It would've been a fantastic chess match.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Mr Magic said:


> It would've been a fantastic chess match.


Agreed. It's going the full 12. And multiple adjustments would be made.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Mr Magic said:


> It would've been a fantastic chess match.


Don't think their styles match-up well.

Ward pulling his best Hop impersonation and Cal brutally hitting air non-stop is not everybody's idea of a fantastic chess match.

Ugly and repulsive to most is far more plausible.


----------



## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> Absolutely brutal stuff here:


Shit rebuttal, posting a video purposely designed to show soft stoppages. Poor form.

He has plenty of one punch KO's in both the amateurs and pro's, how many none punchers put Eubank on his ass? Some fighters go their entire amteur career without knocking someone out, Calzaghe used to knock people silly.


----------



## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

TFG said:


> Calzaghe was laying out guys in the amateurs with one punch KOs, he was known as a banger from being a young lad.
> 
> Your observation is simply incorrect, he WAS laying guys out before his hand injuries, that's a fact. You're statement about them not seeing it coming is just stupid, its like saying Pacquiao was never really a big puncher because of how quick he was.
> 
> ...


Many professionals were "bangers" early in amateurs and pro career. And if his professional is of any indication, at least half of that amateur banging were fixed.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

TFG said:


> Shit rebuttal, posting a video purposely designed to show soft stoppages. Poor form.
> 
> He has plenty of one punch KO's in both the amateurs and pro's, how many none punchers put Eubank on his ass? Some fighters go their entire amteur career without knocking someone out, Calzaghe used to knock people silly.


Can't you have some fun? Wow.

Even if Joe was a puncher in his youth, he wasn't for the majority of his career. He had guys going backwards more often than his technique would make you think is possible, but I credit that more to style and angles than thudding power.

Had he fought a prime Eubank, that would have been pretty impressive. But Chris never won another fight after Joe, had lost a couple leading up to it, and managed to go the distance.


----------



## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> Can't you have some fun? Wow.
> 
> Even if Joe was a puncher in his youth, he wasn't for the majority of his career. He had guys going backwards more often than his technique would make you think is possible, but I credit that more to style and angles than thudding power.
> 
> Had he fought a prime Eubank, that would have been pretty impressive. But Chris never won another fight after Joe, had lost a couple leading up to it, and managed to go the distance.


Oh sorry, thought we were having a debate.

And yeah that's the point, he was a puncher in his youth until he fucked his hands. You don't start off as a banger and then suddenly turn feather fisted in the very same weight divison as you get older and stronger. Unless of course you braek your hands multiple times and change your punching technique to accomodate.

So it's not impressive because Eubank was aged and never got stopped, despite the fact he wasn't stopped in any fight before or after the Calzaghe fight? Ok mate. Eubank has one the greatest chins of all time and won the two fights before by KO, it's impressive no matter how you try to spin it. That's why it's largely considered a very good accomplishment.

How was a Eubank able to compete in a war with a young Calzaghe if he was so past it? His punch resistance was great throughout, his speed was fine, his power was solid and his stamina was as good as ever.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

TFG said:


> Oh sorry, thought we were having a debate.
> 
> And yeah that's the point, he was a puncher in his youth until he fucked his hands. You don't start off as a banger and then suddenly turn feather fisted in the very same weight divison as you get older and stronger. Unless of course you braek your hands multiple times and change your punching technique to accomodate.
> 
> ...


Debates can be fun. At least they are for me.

Like I've said above, Joe obviously had enough power to consistently move guys backwards. His KOs? Many are dubious and/or against really soft competition.

There's nothing wrong with admitting a fighter isn't a beast in all departments. I think a lot of the backlash Joe receives is because fanboys try to say he had Tyson-esque power and a ATG resume. Really, for most of his career, Joe had sub par power and a really thin resume. That doesn't take away from his speed, stamina or ability to make adjustments, it just makes him human.


----------



## p.townend (May 17, 2013)

Would be interesting, Joe fought all styles and always won,Ward is good but I don't rate him as highly as a lot of American posters do. Time will tell as it is I pick Joe via decision. Calzaghe was tested over and over by some good fighters and came through. Ward for me hasn't done enough and although he has some good wins it isn't enough to change my view.


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

TFG said:


> Oh sorry, thought we were having a debate.
> 
> And yeah that's the point, he was a puncher in his youth until he fucked his hands. You don't start off as a banger and then suddenly turn feather fisted in the very same weight divison as you get older and stronger. Unless of course you braek your hands multiple times and change your punching technique to accomodate.
> 
> ...


Here's a metric that may tell us something. Joe Calzaghe had 2 career non-technical KOs. One against Frank Minton and one against Tyler Hughes.

Here are some other "big punchers" numbers for non-technical KOs:

Kovalev: 8 KOs in 29 fights.

Golovkin: 13 KOs in 34 fights

Julian Jackson: 16 KOs in 61 fights

Roy Jones: 12 KOs in 71 fights

Pacquiao: 11 KOs in 66 fights

Hearns: 23 KOs in 67 fights

Even B-Hop: 6 KOs in 61 fights.

Even brittle-handed Mayweather: 4 KOs in 49 fights.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)




----------



## Someguy101 (Jun 4, 2013)

Alot of Ward fans keep moaning about Calzaghes lack of KOs late in his career which is funny because they use Wards damaged hand as an excuse for his lack of KOs. Ooohhhhhhh

At least Calzaghe went up and beat the then number 1 LHW. Ward made Dawson come DOWN has tried to get GGG to come UP and keeps making excuses not to fight Kovalev let alone a full LHW fight.

Which SMW on Wards resume is better than Eubank?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Someguy101 said:


> Alot of Ward fans keep moaning about Calzaghes lack of KOs late in his career which is funny because they use Wards damaged hand as an excuse for his lack of KOs. Ooohhhhhhh
> 
> At least Calzaghe went up and beat the then number 1 LHW. Ward made Dawson come DOWN has tried to get GGG to come UP and keeps making excuses not to fight Kovalev let alone a full LHW fight.
> 
> Which SMW on Wards resume is better than Eubank?


Kessler and Froch easily better than a faded weight drained two weeks notice Eubank

And why do Calzaghe fans keep harping on the fact that after 10 years of defending the worthless WBO belt he moved up to fight an old Hopkins who himself fought most on his career at middleweight

I imagin le if Warren had to drag Calzaghr kicking and screaming to fight Jeff Lacy what he'd have to do to get him to fight a monster like Kovalev

Look there is a reason why guys like Carl Froch have no respect for Calzaghe


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


>


:rofl A classic.


----------



## Someguy101 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Kessler and Froch easily better than a faded weight drained two weeks notice Eubank
> 
> And why do Calzaghe fans keep harping on the fact that after 10 years of defending the worthless WBO belt he moved up to fight an old Hopkins who himself fought most on his career at middleweight
> 
> ...


Are you saying the Groves that almost beat Froch in fight 1 would beat Joe then? Or the Taylor who almost beat him?

Eubanks was not a faded win and Joe would mop the floor with Groves and Taylor. About a year or two ago Froch even admitted Joes workrate would have beaten him and that only a KO would give Froch the win if they fought.

Ward beat Froch by 2 points.......and gassed.....2.....with a busted hand so only half as active. Now imagine if he had two working hands and joe made him work even harder.

Joe beats Ward everyday. I remember ppl saying Dawson beats Calzaghe!


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Someguy101 said:


> Are you saying the Groves that almost beat Froch in fight 1 would beat Joe then? Or the Taylor who almost beat him?


With Calzaghes lax defense and concentration I'd give Froch a solid punches chance. Again watch the Kessler video, Calzaghe was hurt on multiple occasions



> Eubanks was not a faded win


U wot m8



> Ward beat Froch by 2 points.......


You going by the judges scorecards or what really happened?



> and gassed.....2.....with a busted hand so only half as active. Now imagine if he had two working hands and joe made him work even harder.


Flawless logic.



> Joe beats Ward everyday. I remember ppl saying Dawson beats Calzaghe!


A prime Chad Dawson would be sloppy Joe's best win


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :rofl A classic.


Like watching Mozart or Picasso work


----------



## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

Ward has done jack shit since the super six. The same people like MW who used to take the piss out of Calzaghe's record now make excuses for Andre's pitiful career.


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

Does this seriously look like a "hilariously bad" stoppage? slapping his way to a victory? Calzaghe was a demon on speed


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

MichiganWarrior said:


> A prime Chad Dawson would be sloppy Joe's best win


Chad Dawson rated Joe Calzaghe, said he left behind a division he hoped to take over

Roy Jones rated Calzaghe7

Kessler Rated him

Toney rated him just because he beat Eubank

Hopkins had to rate him cus he got beat by him

Pavlik rated him and was lucky not to fight him (can you imagine people actually believed Calzaghe ducked Pavlik)






Charles Brewer : "Calzaghe had some rediculous cobinations"


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

That is some inhumane workrate


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

conradically said:


> Here's a metric that may tell us something. Joe Calzaghe had 2 career non-technical KOs. One against Frank Minton and one against Tyler Hughes.
> 
> Here are some other "big punchers" numbers for non-technical KOs:
> 
> ...


Joe KOd undefeated Hughes in 1, that was better than Lacy and Bute, they did him in 3 rounds, with TKOS, no KOs for them


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

calzaghe, his first fight at 175 in las vegas, fighting whom most would perceive to be the number one lhw bernard hopkins, would be the same as ward fighting kovalev in russia or stevenson in canada 

and idiot ward fans wont give joe any credit but will sit back and put andre on their pfp list fighting 168 paul smith and trying to fight 168s alexander brand and paul murdock in his first fight at 175

shits funny


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

quincy k said:


> calzaghe, his first fight at 175 in las vegas, fighting whom most would perceive to be the number one lhw bernard hopkins, would be the same as ward fighting kovalev in russia or stevenson in canada
> 
> and idiot ward fans wont give joe any credit but will sit back and put andre on their pfp list fighting 168 paul smith and trying to fight 168s alexander brand and paul murdock in his first fight at 175
> 
> shits funny


But the Manfredo stoppage!!! -_-


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

Cannae help it


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

The Kraken said:


> Joe KOd undefeated Hughes in 1, that was better than Lacy and Bute, they did him in 3 rounds, with TKOS, no KOs for them


Yes, that was one of his 2 KOs -- and it happened to be a spectacular forehand slap worthy of Roger Federer.


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

quincy k said:


> calzaghe, his first fight at 175 in las vegas, fighting whom most would perceive to be the number one lhw bernard hopkins, would be the same as ward fighting kovalev in russia or stevenson in canada
> 
> and idiot ward fans wont give joe any credit but will sit back and put andre on their pfp list fighting 168 paul smith and trying to fight 168s alexander brand and paul murdock in his first fight at 175
> 
> shits funny


Not in the least. Do you think Ward would win a close decision in ... Russia against Kovalev where he was knocked down in the first round? The suggestion is laughable.

Joe was in fact the HBO darling and Bernard was persona non grata for the network with little following in Vegas or anywhere.

Similar to how Carl Froch had the louder cheering section in Atlantic City against the unknown Ward. And Ricky Hatton before him in Vegas against Mayweather with his hordes of visiting fans, singing from the rafters "there's only one ... Ricky Hatton ..."


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

The Kraken said:


> Chad Dawson rated Joe Calzaghe, said he left behind a division he hoped to take over
> 
> Roy Jones rated Calzaghe7
> 
> ...


nobody is "not rating" Calzaghe. You're not following the thread. Somebody referred to him as some sort of hellacious "puncher" in his early career which is obviously not true from review of the film, where he is often seen hammering chubby novices with flush slaps until the ref steps in to stop the fight. The defeated fighter often looks bewildered rather than hurt as if he had emerged from a spinning clothes dryer, but always seems to have his faculties fully about him.


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

conradically said:


> Not in the least. Do you think Ward would win a close decision in ... Russia against Kovalev where he was knocked down in the first round? The suggestion is laughable.
> 
> Joe was in fact the HBO darling and Bernard was persona non grata for the network with little following in Vegas or anywhere.
> 
> Similar to how Carl Froch had the louder cheering section in Atlantic City against the unknown Ward. And Ricky Hatton before him in Vegas against Mayweather with his hordes of visiting fans, singing from the rafters "there's only one ... Ricky Hatton ..."


HBO darling? 




4 mins ...


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

The Kraken said:


> HBO darling?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HBO had no use for Bernard, he was always mucking up the works and had a boring style. His close losses to Jermain Taylor (HBO darling) are evidence of this. When he got ridiculously old, HBO liked him a little more because there was a human interest story they could spin -- the "old legend", etc. When he fought Calzaghe he was a nuisance to Lampley et al.


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

conradically said:


> HBO had no use for Bernard, he was always mucking up the works and had a boring style. His close losses to Jermain Taylor (HBO darling) are evidence of this. When he got ridiculously old, HBO liked him a little more because there was a human interest story they could spin -- the "old legend", etc. When he fought Calzaghe he was a nuisance to Lampley et al.


What the fuck happened to Jermaine? I was going to ask who you'd pick over Jermaine or Joe but it's too sad


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

conradically said:


> Not in the least. Do you think Ward would win a close decision in ... Russia against Kovalev where he was knocked down in the first round? The suggestion is laughable.
> 
> Joe was in fact the HBO darling and Bernard was persona non grata for the network with little following in Vegas or anywhere.
> 
> Similar to how Carl Froch had the louder cheering section in Atlantic City against the unknown Ward. And Ricky Hatton before him in Vegas against Mayweather with his hordes of visiting fans, singing from the rafters "there's only one ... Ricky Hatton ..."


did i mention anything about getting a fair decision? the fact of the matter is that joe had the courage to go up a weight class and challenge, whom most believed to be the number one lhw, the higher weight champion in his own country in joes first fight at 175

thats it

okay?

just the same as 160 golovkin had the courage to offer a fight to 168 froch, in wembley, in his first fight at smw

its a complete joke that ward fans called out golovkin for not facing andre in his first fight at 168 but give ward a pass for fighting(smith), and attempting to fight(brand/murdock), shit-fuk garbage in his first fight(s) at 175.

if it makes you feel any better how about we simply omit the canada and russia and replace the venue with, well...how about oakland?

http://www.badlefthook.com/2013/6/2...ts-fights-with-bernard-hopkins-and-andre-ward

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/11/andre-ward-says-stevenson-doesnt-deserve-to-fight-him


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

Peter looks so lost 




Yeah, shit stoppage, but... he looked like a boy against a man


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

quincy k said:


> did i mention anything about getting a fair decision? the fact of the matter is that joe had the courage to go up a weight class and challenge, whom most believed to be the number one lhw, the higher weight champion in his own country in joes first fight at 175
> 
> thats it
> 
> ...


you're rightly giving GGG credit for his amazing courage in fighting Froch at Wembley -- it was indeed courageous, one of the bravest performances I've ever seen! Unforgettable. Balls of steel.

But what about Pacquiao's courage for fighting Mayweather in Vegas? Or Canelo's courage for doing the same? Maidana's?

or, perhaps it doesn't take all that much courage (beyond the ordinary courage it takes to make a fight) to make make huge money on pay-per-view in Las Vegas... the center of boxing Universe, the place Froch has always craved a fight but never been able to get one.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

conradically said:


> you're rightly giving GGG credit for his amazing courage in fighting Froch at Wembley -- it was indeed courageous, one of the bravest performances I've ever seen! Unforgettable. Balls of steel.
> 
> But what about Pacquiao's courage for fighting Mayweather in Vegas? Or Canelo's courage for doing the same? Maidana's?
> 
> or, perhaps it doesn't take all that much courage (beyond the ordinary courage it takes to make a fight) to make make huge money on pay-per-view in Las Vegas... the center of boxing Universe, the place Froch has always craved a fight but never been able to get one.


Don't bother he's an idiot. He compared fighting Hopkins a former middleweight not known for his punching power to facing a true lightheavy Kovalev who has brutally finished every opponent he's fought for years


----------



## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ward gassed because he had a broken hand and reinjured it in the sixth round
> By all means point to another fight where Ward notably gassed
> 
> Also using your logic if Calzaghe looked horrid vs Robin Reid and was getting dropped and wobbled by an old Hopkins what happens when he fights a young Hopkins clone who wasn't a career middleweight?


Robin Reid was a good fighter


----------



## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

Eubank was a great win for Calzaghe, and he dropped him in round one. Anyone who knows boxing knows Eubank had some chin. A few weeks notice ? Eubank had a few weeks notice when he jumped to cruiser and went to war with one Carl Thompson a couple of years later. The same Carl Thompson who chewed a young David Haye up and shat him over the carpet.

Ward needs to get a move on , he's making Joe look prolific.


----------



## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Don't bother he's an idiot. He compared fighting Hopkins a former middleweight not known for his punching power to facing a true lightheavy Kovalev who has brutally finished every opponent he's fought for years


Bernard Hopkins the MW king who's best and biggest wins at the weight were two welters. I still know he's a boxing great and love the mad old hard bastard but for some reason in your fucked up head Calzaghe's run was a joke, but Ward is great. Is it a British v America thing ? Or white v black ( even though you're white )?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Stone Rose said:


> Eubank was a great win for Calzaghe, and he dropped him in round one. Anyone who knows boxing knows Eubank had some chin. A few weeks notice ? Eubank had a few weeks notice when he jumped to cruiser and went to war with one Carl Thompson a couple of years later. The same Carl Thompson who chewed a young David Haye up and shat him over the carpet.
> 
> Ward needs to get a move on , he's making Joe look prolific.


:rofl yeah ok


----------



## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> :rofl yeah ok


If you don't know who the cat is that's your problem white boy.

Hows the fiancÃ©? You met her yet ?


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

conradically said:


> you're rightly giving GGG credit for his amazing courage in fighting Froch at Wembley -- it was indeed courageous, one of the bravest performances I've ever seen! Unforgettable. Balls of steel.
> 
> But what about Pacquiao's courage for fighting Mayweather in Vegas? Or Canelo's courage for doing the same? Maidana's?
> 
> or, perhaps it doesn't take all that much courage (beyond the ordinary courage it takes to make a fight) to make make huge money on pay-per-view in Las Vegas... the center of boxing Universe, the place Froch has always craved a fight but never been able to get one.


what do you not understand about 160 golovkin offering a fight to 168 champ froch at wembley in gennadys first attempt at 168 and ward offering a fight to rohan murdock in andres first fight at 175?

wtf?


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)




----------



## Sox (May 19, 2013)

Fantastic fight, 2 of the greats.
I have Ward taking it in a very close fight.
Joe looked unreal at times, almost superhuman.

But I can't see him beating Ward.
Who knows...


----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

quincy k said:


> what do you not understand about 160 golovkin offering a fight to 168 champ froch at wembley in gennadys first attempt at 168 and ward offering a fight to rohan murdock in andres first fight at 175?
> 
> wtf?


First, lets establish that you get few courage points from me for "making an offer". In fact the fight never happened. Second, Froch was not the best SMW. GGG made no offer to the best SMW (Andre Ward) -- rather he declined an offer. Declined it. So you lose a few points there too.

In the end, I'm unmoved by an "offer" for a fight that never materialized against the second best SMW when the best SMW was available and trying to make a fight.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

conradically said:


> First, lets establish that you get few courage points from me for "making an offer". In fact the fight never happened. Second, Froch was not the best SMW. GGG made no offer to the best SMW (Andre Ward) -- rather he declined an offer. Declined it. So you_* lose a few points*_ there too.
> 
> In the end, I'm _*unmoved *_by an "offer" for a fight that never materialized against the second best SMW when the best SMW was available and trying to make a fight.


well if youre _*unmoved *_by gennady offering to fight the second best 168 in his first shot at smw, in frochs own country no less, then you must have been _*floored *_when andre ward offered to fight 168 rohan murdoch in his first fight at 175...a fight that was so bad it was rejected by the nsac

and 160 golovkin did not decline a fight with 168 ward. he offered a 164 catchweight

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2015/07/loeffler-ggg-would-fight-ward-on-a-50-50-basis-at-164/

the same catchweight type offer between a lower weight class champ and a higher weight class champ that occurred in chavez/whitacker, pacqiuoa/cotto and most recently the 124 rigo offered loma

http://www.badlefthook.com/2015/7/13/8955389/rigondeaux-agrees-in-principal-to-fight-lomachenko

_*"Rigondeaux will fight Lomachenko at a 124-pound catchweight, which should be no problem for Lomachenko because he weighed 125 pounds for one of his professional fights," said Hyde. "Rigo is a small 122-pounder who could make 118 without much trouble and he would be giving away size and weight advantages to Lomachenko."
*
_
if 160 ggg were to _*lose a few points *_by offering a catchweight fight to 168 ward how many points does a champion such as floyd mayweather lose by offering a "contract weight fight" between two champions in the same weight class such as what happened in his title unification fight with canelo?


----------



## Felix (Mar 13, 2013)

The Kraken said:


>


He carries powah.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Koing bums as proof of Calzaghes power. :rofl


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Calzaghe, Loma, Rigo, Ward and GGG in one thread. Asking for pointless discussion


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)




----------



## conradically (Jul 12, 2013)

The Kraken said:


>


this stuff is comical! The first one, against Hanlon, that was an absolutely horrific rabbit punch.

Kraken, you're all right, you have a sense of humor.


----------



## The Kraken (Apr 19, 2014)

Legit KO


----------

