# Any of you miss DLH?



## evalistinho (Jun 3, 2013)

Recently i watched DLH-Quartey and DLH-Mayorga and started thinking how fun it was to watch Oscar. Regardless of which fights you think he got his way or got robbed, or if you felt he was very good or not great or a a drag queen for dressing up and snorting coke off strippers titties, it always felt like a big event/party situation whenever oscar fought its like it was something many of my friends and family members looked forward to back in the day.

What are some of your favorite DLH fights?


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## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

evalistinho said:


> Recently i watched DLH-Quartey and DLH-Mayorga and started thinking how fun it was to watch Oscar. Regardless of which fights you think he got his way or got robbed, or if you felt he was very good or not great or a a drag queen for dressing up and snorting coke off strippers titties, it always felt like a big event/party situation whenever oscar fought its like it was something many of my friends and family members looked forward to back in the day.
> 
> What are some of your favorite DLH fights?


It's hard to miss him when he's being an ass of a promoter


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

Vargas DLH was my all time favorite fight. Watched this fight in a huge mansion in Vegas. 2 rooms and an outside patio view. Place went nuts


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## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)

I prefer early ODLH as a Super-featherweight/Lightweight. Pure admiration for his boxing talent and demeanor. Champion written all over him. One of my favourite styles to watch


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

I don't think there will be another Mexican American as good as Oscar


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## Kid Cubano (Jun 5, 2013)

DobyZhee said:


> Vargas DLH was my all time favorite fight. Watched this fight in a huge mansion in Vegas. 2 rooms and an outside patio view. Place went nuts


yep, that was my fav fight. even if 154 wasn't his best weight class but the animosity with vargas toned the fight.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

The hook he put Vargas down with was fucking beautiful.


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## Kush (May 24, 2013)

Nah, I'm still mad he beat up Chavez.

Then the fucker had to go and whip his ass some mo


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## jonnytightlips (Jun 14, 2012)

Yeah. A lot of his fights were big events and he paved the way for new superstars in the sport like Mayweather and Pac when he lost to them.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Yeah, (was pretty young when he was in his prime though so never saw a fight of him then) but I admire his fight the best attitude in boxing. Whatever you say about close fights of him it's a testament of his skill that he regardless of style he always made it a close fight (with some exceptions of course)


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## ElKiller (Jun 14, 2014)

Unlike some of the current top fighters, DLH was good for boxing.


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## Montezuma (May 17, 2013)

Kush said:


> Nah, I'm still mad he beat up Chavez.
> 
> Then the fucker had to go and whip his ass some mo


Yeah that hurt me so bad I remember missing the gym for about a fortnight out of a mild depression.


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## Nigelbro (May 22, 2013)

Oscars rise was in my prime. The "golden boy" tag was so appropriate at the time, ppv king, plus he fought every man in his path. The Mosely fights were a high light for me.


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## Slip (Jul 17, 2012)

Dlh was a beast. Took on all comers and very skilled. He was great for boxing and dared to be great. His resume in modern era for a cash cow like him is second to none. I would argue best resume since ali. Only fighters he missed are vernon forrest and maybe winky Wright but I dnt think anyone can hold that against him. Joy to watch 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

@turbotime


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

They don't make 'em like my boy Oskee anymore.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> The hook he put Vargas down with was fucking beautiful.


He did an Ali shuffle right after that. So G.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Kush said:


> Nah, I'm still mad he beat up Chavez.
> 
> Then the fucker had to go and whip his ass some mo





Montezuma said:


> Yeah that hurt me so bad I remember missing the gym for about a fortnight out of a mild depression.


I at least take some comfort in the fact that had the timeline and their career trajectories matched up more suitably, De La Hoya was the sort of fighter that would've had no qualms about fighting Chavez in his prime. It wasn't his fault, and I always kind of felt the disdain those fights generated for him for much of his pomp was a little bit unfair. He was definitely super-charged with some malicious intent for Chavez though.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> He was definitely super-charged with some malicious intent for Chavez though.


Yup, Oscar was a bad man.

If you're a tijuana midget cab driver.

There was none of that malicious intent when he was facing fighters his own size.

Just jittery boxing and controversial decisions.



DobyZhee said:


> I don't think there will be another Mexican American as good as Oscar


He will be remembered as merely a footnote in the glorious era of Kid Dynamite.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Yup, Oscar was a bad man.
> 
> If you're a tijuana midget cab driver.
> 
> ...


Lmao.. The Tito Trinidad fight comes to mind when u say Controversial decisions.

DLH had the fight in the bag until he started fucking running the late rounds like a little pansy.

For that, I don't care if the judges robbed DLH of that victory. DLH didn't close the show and you can't just run away from that kinda shit.

Felix Sturm also comes to mind. And so does Quartey. No way did he beat Quartey. Quartey outjabbed the fuck out of him.

Prime Chavez would've given DLH a lot more resistance.

The fake Mexican would have never beaten prime Chavez @ lightweight.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Oscar was great for Boxing.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I at least take some comfort in the fact that had the timeline and their career trajectories matched up more suitably, De La Hoya was the sort of fighter that would've had no qualms about fighting Chavez in his prime. It wasn't his fault, and I always kind of felt the disdain those fights generated for him for much of his pomp was a little bit unfair. He was definitely super-charged with some malicious intent for Chavez though.


Call me crazy, but I think he would of always been a nightmare for Chavez.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

SJS20 said:


> Call me crazy, but I think he would of always been a nightmare for Chavez.


Depends on the weight/Oscar's experience/Chavez's wear and tear.

Prime for prime (more or less) - the early lightweight Chavez vs the post-Molina loss lightweight Oscar is a good fight.

Oscar's naturally bigger, faster, harder puncher - good enough to give JC a competitive fight, not skillful enough to pull it off.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Torch passing sucks @Bogotazo



SJS20 said:


> Call me crazy, but I think he would of always been a nightmare for Chavez.


Yea, I don't disagree with that. Chavez has a lot more that distinguishes him in an all-time H2H sense and I wouldn't have him down as anything less than Top 3-5 where technical pressure fighters, infighting or body punching is concerned. That's partly the reason he comfortably makes my Top 10 in terms of ability on film. He was incredibly patient and economical with his punches and had absolutely no wasted head movement, unnecessarily burned through no energy stores. He was relentless, but not in the sort of way people inaccurately paint him.

I think Oscar's size, dimensions and jab always make for a difficult proposition and close off certain avenues in which Chavez was ordinarily capable of winning fights against other world level opponents. He certainly wouldn't outbox him, nor would he be able to win convincingly fighting at mid-range standing in Oscar's kill zone where he's getting full extension on his shots. That was a real sight to behold tbh, Chavez was a guy who in his prime nary had so much as minor swelling on his face. His head would need to stay buried in Oscar's chest where thunderous hooks to the body, flush uppercuts and short right hands would be exploding on him in combination. I think he possessed the offensive footwork at his best to dictate the terms though, and it's made a bit easier especially if DLH is fighting as emotionally as he was in their actual fights.



tommygun711 said:


> Prime Chavez would've given DLH a lot more resistance.
> 
> The fake Mexican would have never beaten prime Chavez @ lightweight.


It could've been a highly competitive fight even in 1996 as Julio trained particularly hard and worked himself into much better condition than what had recently been seen. It was a disastrous mistake to go into the fight with a cut that wasn't more than a week old. DLH busted it open within the first minute on an innocuous jab. Julio hardly came forward at all for the duration, he couldn't see, he was being thoroughly outboxed and by the fourth round was taking some hellacious shots before the ringside doctor stoppage. He just looked like a shopworn old man in the 1998 rematch at 147, comprehensively outsized and outgunned.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Chacal said:


> @turbotime


Sad that it took this to draw him out for more than a single, random post. :lol: :verysad
@turbotime used to be the most active poster on this forum.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It could've been a highly competitive fight even in 1996 as Julio trained particularly hard and worked himself into much better condition than what had recently been seen. It was a disastrous mistake to go into the fight with a cut that wasn't more than a week old. DLH busted it open within the first minute on an innocuous jab. Julio hardly came forward at all for the duration, he couldn't see, he was being thoroughly outboxed and by the fourth round was taking some hellacious shots before the ringside doctor stoppage. He just looked like a shopworn old man in the 1998 rematch at 147, comprehensively outsized and outgunned.


I agree, but DLH would've beaten him by 1996 or 1998. Maybe Julio would trouble DLH in 96', but I tend to think DLH beats any faded version of Chavez. DLH is lucky lucky that he never faced a prime Chavez that would be ALL UP IN HIS SHIT. I think Chavez fucks up DLH on the inside and rips him apart.

He thought Hopkins' body shot was bad, well Chavez's would be even worse.


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## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

I miss being able to see my penis when looking down


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I agree, but DLH would've beaten him by 1996 or 1998. Maybe Julio would trouble DLH in 96', but I tend to think DLH beats any faded version of Chavez. DLH is lucky lucky that he never faced a prime Chavez that would be ALL UP IN HIS SHIT. I think Chavez fucks up DLH on the inside and rips him apart.
> 
> He thought Hopkins' body shot was bad, well Chavez's would be even worse.


Oscar destroys pressure fighters son. Good job comparing the body work of 165lb Hopkins to 140lb Chavez though.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Oscar destroys pressure fighters son. Good job comparing the body work of 165lb Hopkins to 140lb Chavez though.


It was an obvious joke, you stupid flomo. DLH wasnt prime vs Bhop either.

Oscar wouldn't "destroy" prime JCC, the GOAT swarmer next to Duran


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Oscar wouldn't "destroy" prime JCC, the GOAT swarmer next to Duran


I'm seeing him as the better inside fighter these days if I'm honest, partially due to him making it a bit more exclusive of an office and just generally putting in the cleaner work, less mauling and such. I think Julio was the most committed and ferocious body puncher of all-time P4P sans possibly Armstrong. Where Duran has an edge, in addition to comparable ability inside is that he was quicker on his feet, had better reflexes, was generally more slick and fluid with his defensive head movement and a better counterpuncher. I see him beating JCC -fairly- comfortably if he fought in the manner of say DeJesus III, but if he matches macho and engages in a close quarters war that's a 50/50 fight at 135 IMO. I don't know that he could help himself.


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

Motherfucker even fought a prime Manny Pacquiao at a skeletal 147.

Heck he even sparred Edwin Valero


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## antonio8904 (Jun 7, 2013)

I miss the life I used to have back in the DLH days...


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## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

Oscar was a great fighter the Fight against Tito was robbery De la hoya won period.

I also Think a prime De la hoya Beats PAC and Mayweather


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> It was an obvious joke, you stupid flomo. DLH wasnt prime vs Bhop either.
> 
> Oscar wouldn't "destroy" prime JCC, the GOAT swarmer next to Duran


Name one pressure fighter Oscar struggled to dismantle.

Name one fighter Chavez beat close to tge size and skill level of Oscar

You old boring fuck


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm seeing him as the *better inside fighter* these days if I'm honest, partially due to him making it a bit more exclusive of an office and just generally putting in the cleaner work, less mauling and such. I think *Julio was the most committed and ferocious body puncher of all-time* P4P sans possibly Armstrong. Where Duran has an edge, in addition to comparable ability inside is that he was quicker on his feet, had better reflexes, was generally more slick and fluid with his defensive head movement and a better counterpuncher. I see him beating JCC -fairly- comfortably if he fought in the manner of say DeJesus III, but if he matches macho and engages in a close quarters war that's a 50/50 fight at 135 IMO. I don't know that he could help himself.


Have you seen this excellent Carlos Ortiz interview?






I post this for two reasons:

1) It's an interview with a fighter who's resume shits all over Chavez's list of shot illegal immigrants.

2) You're making @Zopilote look unmexican with your roid-rage-filled wutang-rants on JC.

- Stay in shape, HoI!


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Have you seen this excellent Carlos Ortiz interview?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ortiz was a cab driver.


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## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)

Prime DLH is not my era so I never got wound up in the promotion but looking back I never liked how fake he comes across. The goody 2 shoes. He had some great wars, I always kept my interest in his career purely fighting.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Ortiz was a cab driver.


Here's Locche before Ortiz:









Here's Locche after Ortiz:









Your argument is invalid.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Here's Locche before Ortiz:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:rofl

It isn't an argument mate, it's an irrefutable fact. Per the interview you posted.

Have you ever heard Senor Pepe's story of Jose Napoles and his pet chicken?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Have you ever heard Senor Pepe's story of Jose Napoles and his pet chicken?


The one he got banned for?

No, I haven't.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> 2) You're making @Zopilote look unmexican with your roid-rage-filled wutang-rants on JC.


One of these fights is watchable, one of them isn't. In that order.











You seen that Bizzarro bout @Felix? Good complete waste of an hour. The former is class, and swift. The first body shot that drops him in the 2nd hardly looked like it connected on the original poor camera angle. And then you see the reverse on replay.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> One of these fights is watchable, one of them isn't. In that order.
> You seen that Bizzarro bout Good complete waste of an hour.


Always found the mid/late 70's Duran's title defenses barely watchable as well.

Just half-assed shit from the so-called greatest lightweight.

Duran should have been busy rematching Buchanan, destroying shot Ortiz, challenging Cervantes/Benitez and losing to El Gato instead of hiding in Panama and sleepwalking through Fernandez-type fights.

Luckily he had Eleta to blame for every big fight he missed.

And he missed quite a few for a supposedly will-face-anyone fighter.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Always found the mid/late 70's Duran's title defenses barely watchable as well.
> 
> Just half-assed shit from the so-called greatest lightweight.
> 
> ...


I absolutely prefer 147 Duran despite the brevity of his time at the weight. Leonard I, Palomino, Nsubuga, Brooks, fuck even Wellington Wheatley all beat watching him chase Lou Bizzarro or Fernandez round the ring for 15 fucking rounds. Makes the Duran stoppage predictions of Floyd at 135 look totally preposterous tbh, there isn't even the slightest chance of that happening. I would bet both of my balls on it. Perhaps I'm just saying that for effect, but still...

Eleta was a piece of shit, for real.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I absolutely prefer 147 Duran despite the brevity of his time at the weight. Leonard I, Palomino, Nsubuga, Brooks, fuck even Wellington Wheatley all beat watching him chase Lou Bizzarro or Leoncio Ortiz (Awful. AWFUL title defence) around the ring for 15 fucking rounds. Makes the Duran stoppage predictions of Floyd at 135 look totally preposterous tbh, there isn't even the slightest chance of that happening. I would bet both of my balls on it.


Early Buchanan Duran is where it's at - everything after is just shades of former furiousness.

I don't think those defenses are indicative of how Duran would have performed against Floyd.

Although I don't see Duran stopping Floyd either.

I don't see anyone stopping Floyd at 130-140.

Except Orzubek, of course.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Early Buchanan Duran is where it's at - everything after is just shades of former furiousness.
> 
> I don't think those defenses are indicative of how Duran would have performed against Floyd.
> 
> ...


No, not indicative and Floyd would be there to win. They are just labourous affairs. I like Duran's vastly improved defense and countering ability as the years moved but not many of those 135 defenses. DeJesus III, Palomino and Leonard I are the world-class performances I reference in regards to it. Made an amendment to that post, Ortiz was actually there with him and landing some good shots.


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

Duran usually went into "do just enough" mode when he was fighting safety-first fighters that didn't really have the offensive(or even all-around) talent to take many rounds from him, or hurt him.He could have destroyed them if he fought with even half the pressure and energy he showed against Buchanan, but couldn't be arsed.

Then Leonard eventually took advantage of that mentality and horribly trolled him.:yep


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> your roid-rage-filled wutang-rants on JC


Apparently far from the first time this has happened. Someone said posts on Chavez were the thing they most remembered me for on ESB:

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...yd-is-top-10&p=1838522&viewfull=1#post1838522

I was thread tagged and mentioned twice immediately in this "I told yall Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr was gay" thread:

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?25152-I-told-yall-Julio-Cesar-Chavez-Sr-was-gay

A little outlandishness is fun and keeps things interesting for me even if I don't entirely believe all the shite I say. I've argued both for and against all of my favourites at various points I think, just to shake things up. Almost purposefully inconsistent. I wish @Pedderrs was still around to take part in the glorious thread hijack this has become.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Someone said posts on Chavez were the thing they most remembered me for on ESB:


The guy who said it is mexican.

It's the only thing he remembers about anyone.



Hands of Iron said:


> I told yall Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr was gay"


- Bullshit!!!







Bill Jincock said:


> Duran usually went into "do just enough" mode when he was fighting safety-first fighters that didn't really have the offensive(or even all-around) talent to take many rounds from him, or hurt him.He could have destroyed them if he fought with even half the pressure and energy he showed against Buchanan, but couldn't be arsed.


I prefer to look at those fights as the ones that exposed Duran's inability to handle movement.
That way I feel more comfortable picking him to lose to Floyd.



Bill Jincock said:


> Then Leonard eventually took advantage of that mentality and horribly trolled him.:yep


I consider this fight a showcase of Duran's warrior mentality.

No, I'm not biased.

Just unpredictable.

Like Duran's bowel movement.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> The guy who said it is mexican.
> 
> It's the only thing he remembers about anyone.
> 
> ...


:lol:

That horrible interpreter was shook.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> That horrible interpreter was shook.


Probably the guy who gave Chavez his first loss.

Agreed to reverse the verdict in exchange for a steady job.
You can't be a cab driver forever after all.

Junior ate him recently.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Oscar was a fucking beast. His versatility and ferocity isn't really celebrated enough IMO and there's no shame in saying a prime JCC would have a problem stalking him. Pressuring a taller fighter with great mobility, speed, power, and body punching is an uphill battle for most.

Hands you and I see Chavez and Duran the same way. You remember this gem?

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=13634492


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

thehook13 said:


> Prime DLH is not my era so I never got wound up in the promotion but looking back I never liked how fake he comes across. The goody 2 shoes. He had some great wars, I always kept my interest in his career purely fighting.


Agreed. He mirrored Sugar Ray Leonard in that respect.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Oscar was a fucking beast. His versatility and ferocity isn't really celebrated enough IMO and there's no shame in saying a prime JCC would have a problem stalking him. Pressuring a taller fighter with great mobility, speed, power, and body punching is an uphill battle for most.
> 
> Hands you and I see Chavez and Duran the same way. You remember this gem?
> 
> http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=13634492


Do we? I directly compared them in this very thread, not in every respect though. I think that's a good thing. It's very difficult for me to show favoritism in either direction but Chavez has narrowed it for me in recent years.

EDIT: Ah yeah, just saw your OP in that thread. Lora (Bill Jincock) was wrecking shit in there. I've seen probably more than twice as much since 2012 which is what I mean when I say the gap between two very long-retired fighters has closed in terms of ability.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Have always said it:

At 140lbs its a 50/50 fight, prime for prime
At 147lbs, Oscar always wins 
Anything below 140lbs, Chavez wins


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Sad that it took this to draw him out for more than a single, random post. :lol: :verysad
> 
> @turbotime used to be the most active poster on this forum.


I know it's fucking pathetic. I have a girlfriend now and I'm whipped and it's the worst :-(


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I know it's fucking pathetic. I have a girlfriend now and I'm whipped and it's the worst :-(


Oh my.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Oh my.


It's the worst thing ever. I'm actually bringing her to the fight party for Pac/Floyd. :suicide


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I wonder how @Teeto the ATG feels about it. Both stylistically and H2H against each other.



Bogotazo said:


> The differences in their styles speak louder to me than their similarities, and differences often lead to trade-offs in advantages/disadvantages when put against specific styles and molds. I have a feeling that certain elements of Julio's in-ring personality may match up better against certain opponents, though I'm not quite sure I can put my finger on how some of these differences may give definite advantages to Chavez. While both men were ferocious, Duran's style (in his prime) seemed to emphasize more of a fast-paced assault punctuated by slippery counters, while Chavez was a more patient but ever-advancing freight train of physicality and accuracy. Even using these terms now, I can easily reverse some of these descriptions and still have them apply.





Hands of Iron said:


> I'm seeing Chavez as the better pure inside fighter these days if I'm honest, partially due to him making it a bit more exclusive of an office and just generally putting in the cleaner work, less mauling and such. I think Julio was the most committed and ferocious body puncher of all-time P4P sans possibly Armstrong. Where Duran has an edge, in addition to comparable ability inside is that he was quicker on his feet, had better reflexes, was generally more slick and fluid with his defensive head movement and a better counterpuncher. I see him beating JCC -fairly- comfortably if he fought in the manner of say DeJesus III, but if he matches macho and engages in a close quarters war that's a 50/50 fight at 135 IMO. I don't know that he could help himself.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Chavez is like a rising tide while Duran is more like the waves.


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## DBerry (Jun 11, 2013)

I do miss DeLaHoya and that whole era of fighting (early-mid nineties). All time great boxer/fighter from a great division in an exciting era.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Chavez is like a rising tide while Duran is more like the waves.


mmmm. Well said.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> mmmm. Well said.


Amazing. :lol:

Chavez style make you drop your hands, takes your legs and make you grab your ankles, boi.


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

One thing that pissed me off was when OScar said he's got the hottest fighter..said it was Victor Ortiz


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I wonder how @Teeto the ATG feels about it. Both stylistically and H2H against each other.


For me, Chavez was always a much better boxer than given credit for. He had a good jab, and his best shot was the short right cross , rather than the left hook downstairs. Chavez had a pretty good defense too, within the context of his fighting style, that is. His footwork was fantastic, when it comes to cutting down the ring he was one of the finest to ever do it.

Stylistically, he was an aggressor, and that is clear, no matter how underrated he might be in terms of technical ability and all-roundness. Given that he was a technically sound educated pressure fighter though, rather than purely a swarmer, head hunter, knockout artist (or whatever other variation of 'brawler' we can think of), I don't subscribe to the idea that the way to beat him was to dance around on the backfoot and do him that way. That's not how Whitaker did it. Whitaker used some lateral movement, no doubt. When I watch that fight though, it just shows me that Pernell did him because he was better than him, and not just at boxing on the backfoot, but also technically as a fighter. Pernell was in there at close quarters out-punching his man, out-fighting him, and he was able to do that because of his higher skill-set at that range. I don't believe that a lightweight Floyd Mayweather for example, (who used to go to the ropes and fight on the backfoot a lot) would beat prime Chavez.

Chavez was educated pressure, he wasn't going to throw a thousand wild hooks at you to land two of them if he had you against the ropes, like Philip N'dou did. It's not wise to fight a purely defensive fight against him.

Duran was a different animal in terms of skill. While I feel that Chavez has been somewhat under-appreciated over the years in terms of his technical skill, there isn't really any room for under-appreciating Duran's ability. It's just so blatant how good he was. When it comes to Duran's weaknesses stylistically, I've always felt it's been somehwat misconstrued by boxing folklore. If you look at his first loss, in his prime against Dejesus, his opponent didn't do that by running away from him and discouraging him with speed and mobility (which has become some kind of consensus on how to beat him from the armchair faithful, since the Leonard rematch). It was done by good quality technical fighting in centre ring. Dejesus obliged Duran, made pockets of space for himself with good economy in his footwork, and landed the better combinations over the distance.

If you look at his second loss to Leonard, again, the bout is going the same kind of course as the first fight. They are obliging one another in the middle of the ring. The first time around, Duran did it better than Leonard. The second time around, Leonard did it better than Duran. That's a completely normal development when two great fighters fight each other multiple times. It's only after a few rounds when Leonard really starts going crazy with the excessive lateral movement and taunting. It's not as though Duran necessarily 'had a nightmare with boxers'.

Duran's methods when it came to hunting down movers was quite unorthodox really. Rather than cutting down the ring in the technically sound way, with side-steps (like Chavez did), he would launch a rapid lead right cross from distance, and then close the gap with his feet and cut off the opponents escape route with body shots that came from way down under. Once Duran had fighters trapped like that, his skill-set was just too great. Being in those trenches with him is just not the way to go, 99% of the time. I think he could be the most skilled fighter I've seen on film in that regard, in terms of pure skill and technical ability.

He was definitely more comfortable fighting a guy who liked to come forward though. There is no doubt about that. The kind of shit you see him doing against the likes of Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas is mouth-watering stuff. I haven't even mentioned how great his defense was either yet.

So when it comes down to this hypothetical, I have to ask myself:

1. Who was the better fighter? I can only answer with Duran to that. I think it's plain and simple based on the evidence, but that doesn't mean that he would necessarily beat Chavez in a fight, because we have to make stylistic considerations.

2. Who fares better on the point of the stylistic matchup? I don't see how I can call it for Chavez. While I appreciate Chavez' ability with the jab and his footwork, he is not going to commit to circling his man in centre ring in an effort to control the pace at mid range. He is going to collide with Duran. What is Duran going to do? He's going to do exactly what I see as being what he needs to be doing. He isn't going to retreat on the back foot, where Chavez has the ability to do him in. If we thought that Pernell Whitaker put on a showcase when he unloaded heavy artillery in close on Chavez, then we're going to be in for some spectacular viewing when Duran does it even better. They're literally going to smash into each other in the middle of the ring, and it is going to be totally decided by who is the more skilled man in the trenches. I only see that going one way.

No disrespect, but I think that even in his 135 pound prime, Julio Cesar Chavez could come out of this looking like he just had a face-lift. His all time great chin will not fail him though.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@Teeto :clap:

And you think we're being disingenuous with repeated calls for you to become a more active poster in here. I don't think Pernell gets the sort of recognition on general boxing-type forums that he truly merits. Of course, there's absolutely no one who denies he was one of the greatest defensive artists there's been, but I see him as one of the most _complete_ fighters of all-time with the aforementioned merely being the flashiest aspect. Short of considerable power - which in it of itself isn't necessarily a skill, though effectively harnessing it is - there was nothing he really lacked from an offensive standpoint. He was equally adept fighting at any range, possessed one of the greatest jabs of all-time, had a notably steady-to-high work rate in prime, about every punch in the book coming from some very unorthodox angles and was flat-out one of the better inside fighters ever in terms of technical ability.

The last one always seems to raise an eyebrow or two with people who haven't really taken the time to know him, but there wouldn't be a better example of that than the fight with Chavez itself where he outworked, outfought and outskilled him over periods throughout the entire fight. Was Julio a "quart low" as George Benton put it six months ahead of their fight before it was signed? Yes, without a doubt. He'd peaked some time before in the late 80s and was on the very back end of his prime. Whitaker was also that good, and possibly due to a few extrinsic factors wouldn't be far behind Chavez before he fell off himself post-Vasquez. His wheels already slowed a bit just from the higher fighting weight in his post-135 days and he was spending more time in the pocket and having to take more risks.

As far as Duran-Chavez, I was looking for your opinion rather than a debate and you thoroughly delivered there. As far as believing Duran could pull a slip-and-counter clinic, I wasn't saying he'd necessarily be on the backfoot because he could do that even in close quarters but rather effectively controlling the bout in the method you accurately said Chavez was capable of fighting but wouldn't be most advantageous here: Commit to circling his man in centre ring in an effort to control the pace at mid-range. Chavez wasn't limited by any means, his offensive footwork in terms of ability to close distance and get off anywhere was just as good as his skill for cutting the ring and cornering his opponents, but his identity as a fighter and his key to winning against like ATG's is more well established as was sort of pointed out earlier in a prime-for-prime with DLH. That isn't a negative, but Duran's simply got more versatility at the highest level and I think the difference in foot speed would be fairly profound. That isn't to say they wouldn't collide head-on in the trenches and go to war over vast stretches, and those moments would be absolutely electric.


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## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Teeto :clap:
> 
> And you think we're being disingenuous with repeated calls for you to become a more active poster in here. I don't think Pernell gets the sort of recognition on general boxing-type forums that he truly merits. Of course, there's absolutely no one who denies he was one of the greatest defensive artists there's been, but I see him as one of the most _complete_ fighters of all-time with the aforementioned merely being the flashiest aspect. Short of considerable power - which in it of itself isn't necessarily a skill, though effectively harnessing it is - there was nothing he really lacked from an offensive standpoint. He was equally adept fighting at any range, possessed one of the greatest jabs of all-time, had a notably steady-to-high work rate in prime, about every punch in the book coming from some very unorthodox angles and was flat-out one of the better inside fighters ever in terms of technical ability.
> 
> ...


Agreed on Pernell, Hands. He was a versatile, complete fighter. I wasn't really aware of him not getting the warranted credit on boxing forums, but that's due to me not posting enough on boxing topics in the most recent years. That's a shame. Younger fans who haven't seen much of him would love watching him IMO.

And yeah, you are right on Chavez' wheels slowing down somewhat after his 135 days, and I can't really add to your last paragraph. I agree with you pretty much full on.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Dead Links.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Have always said it:
> 
> At 140lbs its a 50/50 fight, prime for prime
> At 147lbs, Oscar always wins
> Anything below 140lbs, Chavez wins


This is the sort of torch passing that Bogo just loves.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Chavez always took 3 punches to land 1 of his own.
Duran sometimes 5 for every one of his landing.

When they start fighting we will see a perpetuum mobile which each man just hitting more and more until we see the creation of a new universe.
Which confirms that Duran is God.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> This is the sort of torch passing that Bogo just loves.


jjj


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> jjj


Now you're just being a dick. :-(

(I'd actually forgotten how much you love Oscar. It doesn't bother you at all that he stopped Chavez twice)


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Now you're just being a dick. :-(
> 
> (I'd actually forgotten how much you love Oscar. It doesn't bother you at all that he stopped Chavez twice)


lol. I love Chavez but, it was Oscar's time. And I love me a good torch passing.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Now you're just being a dick. :-(
> 
> (I'd actually forgotten how much you love Oscar. It doesn't bother you at all that he stopped Chavez twice)


:hey


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> The guy who said it is mexican.
> 
> It's the only thing he remembers about anyone.


Easy, man. :lol:

I'm in deep with these people on a very personal level. Will be Padrino to my third Mexican godchild this April but that honestly hardly scratches the surface. The main reason for the Chavez onslaught stems predominantly from paraphrasing an Abel Sanchez quote about 'Golopkin' being Chavez, he didn't say that himself of course but I took exception to it on a few different levels. It hasn't really stopped since that day, and I hadn't even posted about boxing for several months before that.



Bogotazo said:


> lol. I love Chavez but, it was Oscar's time. And I love me a good torch passing.


You know what? They were good fights for boxing for the amount of hype they generated for the sport, which I guess is part of the make-up of why you love these fucking things aside from history-lineage stuff, right? I was 9-years-old during their first fight in '96 and I still remember the feeling and exactly where I was and who was in the room during the ring walks. There was also some very legit and fiery bad blood between the two of them, though it was more potent in the '98 rematch. It's a shame and will always be a shame because Oscar had the ability to beat him at his best too. I can't pretend he was really close to that level though.

"Julio Cesar Chavez was in the best shape of his life!" - DLH, June 1996.



turbotime said:


> :hey


Beat Whitaker too FFS. :lol:


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Yeah man they really generate a sentiment that captures the imagination beyond just a timeline. It's why I'm so afraid for the new generation. 

Oh yeah Whitaker was around too, get ready for the sequel torch-passing marathon, featuring Sweet Pea, Julio, the Golden Boy, Sugar Shane, Pacman and the 3 Amigos, Cotto and Money May himself. 


Oh shit what's good Turbo.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Yeah of course. Cash Cow that fought anyone


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## MEXAMELAC (Apr 14, 2014)

Kush said:


> Nah, I'm still mad he beat up Chavez.
> 
> Then the fucker had to go and whip his ass some mo


I hated his fucking guts for a long time because of that but then learned to like him and still like/respect him now. Especially after seeing how cool him and Chavez are now :smile


























With Iron Mike!


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## Ashstrodamus (Aug 28, 2013)

DLH fights were always a must at my house. We'd get all the PPV's cause you knew you were getting a great fight each and every time. I'll take 90's era over today's crap any old day.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> The main reason for the Chavez onslaught stems predominantly from @Mexi-Box paraphrasing an Abel Sanchez quote about 'Golopkin' being Chavez, he didn't say that himself of course but I took exception to it on a few different levels.:


When @Flea Man finishes his epic GGG series the truth about Gena's style origins will be finally revealed.

Sadly, Flea is an old guy (I think he's 87), so everything moves slow for him these days.



Hands of Iron said:


> Easy, man. :lol:
> I'm in deep with these people on a very personal level. Will be Padrino to my third Mexican godchild this April but that honestly hardly scratches the surface.


Nothing personal, HoI.

Just pure hatred for Chavez.



Hands of Iron said:


> You know what? They were good fights for boxing for the amount of hype they generated for the sport


It's actually interesting to see in real time how perception of certain fighters changes.

I mean, nobody rated Ezz highly in his own time and Dempsey was god back in the day (he still is to many people).
But that was long time ago.

Oscar fought just recently and already opinions on him are not the same as they were when he was in his prime.

Wouldn't say it's a bad thing when a good fighter gets his dues, even if some things tend to get over romanticized with time.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> When @Flea Man
> 
> finishes his epic GGG series the truth about Gena's style origins will be finally revealed.
> 
> ...


:lol: Yeah...I'm sorry. Have not been on the ball the past two weeks.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Whitaker FFS





Bill Jincock said:


> Cherenkov >>> Platini


Are we're in agreement that Whitaker was lucky to snatch the light middle title from Baldomir's slower father?

Surely he would have lost a wide, embarrassing decision to Gianfranco Rosi who looked like a parkinson-stricken Holmes with his goofy yet effective movement and accurate inescapable slaps?

Just to remind you - prime Rosi brutalized D.Thomas who schooled and shattered Kalambay's chin.


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

:lol:

Nobody post-McCallum beats Rosi at his best at 154.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MEXAMELAC said:


> I hated his fucking guts for a long time because of that but then learned to like him and still like/respect him now. Especially after seeing how cool him and Chavez are now :smile
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn, Julio is a small dude. So am I :lol:



Lester1583 said:


> When @Flea Man finishes his epic GGG series the truth about Gena's style origins will be finally revealed.
> 
> Sadly, Flea is an old guy (I think he's 87), so everything moves slow for him these days.


Is he, really? The Golovkin piece, I mean. I've seen Flea, so the old man jokes don't work. That or he has the greatest anti-aging regimen in history.



> Nothing personal, HoI.
> 
> Just pure hatred for Chavez.


There was a "Culiacan Crybaby" sect of ESB Classic. 70% of the General thought he was a face-first brawler. Atrocious times.



> It's actually interesting to see in real time how perception of certain fighters changes.
> 
> I mean, nobody rated Ezz highly in his own time and Dempsey was god back in the day (he still is to many people).
> But that was long time ago.
> ...


You'd know better, I was an adolescent and Jim Lampley loved to shout in ecstasy.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah man they really generate a sentiment that captures the imagination beyond just a timeline. *It's why I'm so afraid for the new generation.*
> 
> Oh yeah Whitaker was around too, get ready for the sequel torch-passing marathon, featuring Sweet Pea, Julio, the Golden Boy, Sugar Shane, Pacman and the 3 Amigos, Cotto and Money May himself.
> 
> Oh shit what's good Turbo.


Let's just face the music: Boxing is pretty shit now.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Let's just face the music: Boxing is pretty shit now.


Oh well. It was a good run. RIP old friend.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Oh well. It was a good run. RIP old friend.


It isn't normal for so many elder fighters to be occupying the Top 10 like they are.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It isn't normal for so many elder fighters to be occupying the Top 10 like they are.


Yeah. Can you think of any comparable era?

Let's look at Ring Magazine:

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings

1. Mayweather-38
2. Klitschko-38
3. Pacquiao-36
4. Gonzalez-27
5. Rigondeaux-34
6. Bradley-31
7. Marquez-41
8. Froch-37
9. Golovkin-32
10. Canelo-24

Then the most notable ones right below are likely: Kovalev (31), Cotto (34), Hopkins (50), Ward (31)...


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah. Can you think of any comparable era?
> 
> Let's look at Ring Magazine:
> 
> ...


No way in fuck should Canelo be on the top 10, and Juan Francisco Estrada NOT be in it. atsch

Estrada is so much better and beaten better opposition.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> No way in fuck should Canelo be on the top 10, and Juan Francisco Estrada NOT be in it. atsch
> 
> Estrada is so much better and beaten better opposition.


Word, he's just 24 as well.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Word, he's just 24 as well.


Yup.

I see a lot of Marquez in Gallito..and then some!


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It isn't normal for so many elder fighters to be occupying the Top 10 like they are.


Meh. You could say the same about any sport, NFL, NBA, MLB, Soccer ect. Is it talent or are training and nutrition standards just flat out better than they used to be. Sugar Ray, Whitaker, Oscar, Tyson, Bowe, and many others didnt live clean lives.

Also absence of 15 rounders and 1-2 fights a year keep alot of guys fresh


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> Yup.
> 
> I see a lot of Marquez in Gallito..and then some!


I must admit I've neglected him. Must make some time.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I must admit I've neglected him. Must make some time.


Watch him when you get a chance man..you won't be disappointed! If you haven't already seen it yet, I'd suggest checking out his fight against Brian Viloria!


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I must admit I've neglected him. Must make some time.


Your neglection list is fucking crazy, dude.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Your neglection list is fucking crazy, dude.


Yep. Not just in boxing but in life :lol:


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

@Bogotazo

Roman Gonzalez, Juan Francisco Estrada and Naoya Inoue are three guys from the lower weights that you REALLY need to check out..in case you haven't.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> @Bogotazo
> 
> Roman Gonzalez, Juan Francisco Estrada and Naoya Inoue are three guys from the lower weights that you REALLY need to check out..in case you haven't.


Yeah those are the names I keep hearing. I appreciate the background info though.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yep. Not just in boxing but in life :lol:









Bogotazo said:


> Yeah those are the names I keep hearing. I appreciate the background info though.


Those are the guys in his avatar. It was very competitively one-sided.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yep. Not just in boxing but in life :lol:





Zopilote said:


> No way in fuck should Canelo be on the top 10, and Juan Francisco Estrada NOT be in it. atsch
> 
> Estrada is so much better and beaten better opposition.


Haha, Robert Guerrero was Top 10 ahead of his Mayweather fight. Six-time, four-division World Champion, baby.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Haha, Robert Guerrero was Top 10 ahead of his Mayweather fight. Six-time, four-division World Champion, baby.


Don't remind me.

I almost threw my laptop across the room when I first saw that.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah those are the names I keep hearing. I appreciate the background info though.


Naoya Inoue is the fastest 2 weight champion of all time.
And he beat legit champions twice.
Narvaez was never dropped (not even by Donaire) and Naoya brutalized him in 2.

He also has a younger 19 year old brother who's really good too, Takuma Inoue.
Doesn't have the same power but he's good.

Roman Gonzales currently has the best left hook in boxing.


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## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> No way in fuck should Canelo be on the top 10, and Juan Francisco Estrada NOT be in it. atsch
> 
> Estrada is so much better and beaten better opposition.


seriously what BS :rofl only reason he's in that top 10 is because the ring is owned by golden boy :-(


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It isn't normal for so many elder fighters to be occupying the Top 10 like they are.


We have said this for how long now?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I've seen Flea, so the old man jokes don't work.


That's his granson's photo.



Hands of Iron said:


> You'd know better, I was an adolescent and Jim Lampley loved to shout in ecstasy.


Broner got me into boxing.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> training and nutrition standards just flat out better than they used to be. Sugar Ray, Whitaker, Oscar, Tyson, Bowe, and many others didnt live clean lives.
> Also absence of 15 rounders and 1-2 fights a year keep alot of guys fresh


This is correct.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> This is correct.


Don't miss the 15-round fights.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Don't miss the 15-round fights.


Only Hagler misses them.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Only Hagler misses them.


Well, he managed to stop everyone else aside from the coked out, one-eyed welter and fat lightweight.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Have you seen this excellent Carlos Ortiz interview?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All of Ortiz opponents were killing machines and all of Chavez opponents were bums, OK got ya'.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Chavez is like a rising tide while Duran is more like the waves.


And their opponents are like cab drivers.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well, he managed to stop everyone else aside from the coked out, one-eyed welter and fat lightweight.


The Antuofermo stoppage was the most impressive.

Excellently timed headbutts.


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## hazza (Sep 2, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> The hook he put Vargas down with was fucking beautiful.


indeed it was. great fight by de la hoya, one of his best.

that was my last cigarette that night too. i remember it well. went out to espn zone with the boys, got absolutely shitfaced, smoked nearly 2 packs of camels and that gave me a 3 day hangover, a good head start on quitting :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> We have said this for how long now?


Quite a while.


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