# The Historic Forum's 'what fights did you watch today' thread



## Michael

Well lads, thought this thread would be a good addition to have here:good

I watched Miguel 'Happy' Lora vs Daniel Zaragoza today for the bantamweight title. This is my first time watching the Colombian Lora and I was impressed, it was a excellent performance against a good fighter. Lora dominated the first half of the fight, using very good head and lateral movement to evade almost all of the taller, rangier punching Zaragozas work. Lora timed the right hand to perfection in the first half of the fight, nailing the Mexican with it in every round, with the uppercut and hook working very well as counter punch. Zarazgoza was knocked down and badly hurt in the 4th and 5th rounds, once with an uppercut to the jaw and again with a left hook to the body. Zarazgoza seemed to come back into as the rounds wore on and Lora slowed down though, landing some decent shots and taking three or four rounds of the second half. I didnt score it but it was a comfortable victory in the end for Lora, who looked top class in his prime.


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## kf3

(highlights) mclarnin v leonard, not much to see really, mclarnin ross 3, ross was the shit. mclarnin canzoneri 1, love how relxed canzoneri is
armstrong v garcia 2 maybe garcia deserved the decision. Armstrongs style shouldn't work like that against bigger men, especially 3 weights up.


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## Yiddle

I have seen this fight quite a few times and always score it very closely to chang 6-5-1 the last few times but I cant recall scoring it to chang by more than a couple of rounds .

am I missing something here I find the 116-112 a little to wide and the 119-112 just laughable , am I way off with my scoring


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## Lester1583

McCallum-Skouma is a good fight to watch if you're a fan of Bodysnatcher.

Hard-punching Skouma put up a spirited effort in defeat - he took a serious beating but caught McCallum with some big shots.


Skouma vs always inconsistent Drayton is a fairly good fight too.


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## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Skouma vs always inconsistent Drayton is a good fight too.


Watched that a while ago.....fun but a bit ugly.


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## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Watched that a while ago.....fun but a bit ugly.


Drayton's right hand is very wide.

But it's a dangerous punch at the same time.


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## Vic

The channel rayrobinson333 on yt is gone ?????


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## Bladerunner

Rubin Carter-Jimmy Ellis, decent fight with Carter stalking and Ellis boxing , Carter dropped Ellis in the fourth and landed the more telling blows i think the decision in his favor was fair, BTW anyone else think Ellis was better at HW than he was at MW?

Also saw:
Terron Millett-Vince Phillips(past his best Phillips gets demolished here).
Terron Millet-Virgil McClendon(Good action, not much skilled involved, Millet was the just winner).
Victor Cordoba-Christophe Tiozzo(The underrated colombian cordoba's superior punching power and steady pressure wore Tiozzo down and stopped him in the ninth, good exchanges in this fight).
Zolt Erdei-Julio Gonzalez(Typical Erdei fight with him not throwing much but still managing to outland his opponent Gonzalez who came forward the all time without much success, Gonzales was a tough cookie and he never stopped trying but it just wasnt enough to beat the more skilled champion ).


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## Jdempsey85

Theres a link on the side of his yt page for google+ ,dont know if all is on though


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## AlFrancis

Buster Drayton caused a couple of upsets in England.


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## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Gonzales was a tough cookie and he never stopped trying but it just wasnt enough to beat the more skilled champion


His comeback in a fight with Letterlough is one of the most miraculous of all time.


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## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> His comeback in a fight with Letterlough is one of the most miraculous of all time.


Indeed,tremendous fight that was.

Sad to think that both guys are no longer with us.


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## Luf

recently watched canzoneri v chocolate; leonard v tendler and armstrong v ross as i posted them on another thread.

they're a credit to the era and pisses in the face of the modernist argument. they look as good then as anyone does today and against truly great opponents to boot.l


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## Yiddle

@Roe

could this thread please be made a sticky


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## Roe

Yiddle said:


> @Roe
> 
> could this thread please be made a sticky


Of course :good


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## Yiddle

Roe said:


> Of course :good


Thanks Roe. Good man


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## Yiddle

Earlier watched sean o'grady vs hilmer Kenty , Kenty was heavily favoured going into this fight . I remember when I was much younger reading that Kenty was expected to win this and retain his title . I hadn't seen this fight for a few years but it didn't disappoint my memory of the fight its a pretty good fight which I had o'grady clearly winning by 10-5 and with 1 even


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## AlFrancis

Just watched Hearns Barkley 1. Who would of thought that would of happened at the time? Just before the knockout, Hearns corner are shouting to him, "keep them downstairs". Bad advice! I think it was Gil Clancy who said afterwards "just goes to show,anything can happen in boxing! Barkley "I didn't have time to bleed".


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## AlFrancis

Yiddle said:


> Earlier watched sean o'grady vs hilmer Kenty , Kenty was heavily favoured going into this fight . I remember when I was much younger reading that Kenty was expected to win this and retain his title . I hadn't seen this fight for a few years but it didn't disappoint my memory of the fight its a pretty good fight which I had o'grady clearly winning by 10-5 and with 1 even


I enjoyed that fight, i was surprised at the time, I expected Kenty to win. Some lovely body punching by O'Grady


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## Yiddle

AlFrancis said:


> I enjoyed that fight, i was surprised at the time, I expected Kenty to win. Some lovely body punching by O'Grady


yep o'grady went well to the body right from the first bell , I thought kenty's quicker hands and feet would be quite an advantage for him but it never really worked out that way


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## Yiddle

Brian Mitchell vs Daniel londas 

I scored this 146-139 , 11 mitchell ,4 londas.

This fight was competitive but I had Mitchell doing enough to win most of the rounds .

Official cards
146-145
148-143
147-138
All for Mitchell


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## Lester1583

If only Canizales fought with intensity of Gomez.

If only Chandler had better defense.

If only Zarate had Arguello's durability and indomitable spirit.

If only Jofre was faster.

If only Rose had power.

If only Chucho/Herrera/Sahaprom were as known as R.Marquez.

If only Panama Al's full fights were available.

If only Shinsuke Yamanaka wasn't so amazing.


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## Bladerunner

Been watching some Walid Smichet fights, not an elite fighter by any means but boy is he fun to watch.


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## MadcapMaxie

Watched Holmes v Spinks II a few days ago after watching the absolute beaut that was the first fight. I didn't score it on a rounds basis but I def gave the nod to Holmes, Spinks was just nothing like the first fight where he was magic. 

Also saw Anterfuermo fighting Hart who he called the hardest puncher he ever faced. Good brawl Vito's inside is very good, rarely spoken of he could get in land three, get out all without having a glove laid on him.


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## jorodz

Never really watched much Virgil Hill but I watched Hill vs Stewart today. Fuck, he was fantastic. His punches were very sharp and his movement was tremendous. 

I gave him the first 3 rounds and I swear that knockout was from a jab and not a hook. Gonna find some more Hill to watch soon.


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## Yiddle

I haven't watched any Virgil hill in years , he never really grew on me he was a good boxer with a solid accurate jab and was pretty good defensively . He liked to stay at home in Bismarck and box I found him quite sterile to watch to be honest. I was really impressed with hearns though when he out boxed hill


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## Lester1583

jorodz said:


> Never watched much Virgil Hill Gonna find some more to watch soon


Don't forget to check out Virgil-Tiozzo 2, Jorodz.


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## jorodz

Lester1583 said:


> Don't forget to check out Virgil-Tiozzo 2, Jorodz.


will do :bbb


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## Magna

jorodz said:


> will do :bbb


Also, with Del Valle. That's a really close, underrated fight.


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## Luf

@Magna

lets do this! you wanna go round by round or watch the full thing then post a card?


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## Magna

Full card, I think, man. Clogs less space.


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## Luf

Magna said:


> Full card, I think, man. Clogs less space.


see you back here in 36 minutes :good


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## jorodz

luf said:


> see you back here in 36 minutes :good


:deal i like that idea. count me in if anyone wants to score a jones fight


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## Magna

Round 1
Floyd more or less dominates this one. His left is looking sharp, he's moving well, and Castillo can't touch him. Nothing more really need to be said. 10-9 Mayweather.
Round 2
Slower round. Floyd actually scores what looked to me like a borderline KD, but JLC gets a break. Floyd is quick on the hook, but not landing it like he wants too. Still, Castillo's counters are all missing, and Floyd is landing his jab and lands some sharp right hands. 10-9, Floyd. Easy to score so far.
Round 3
Much closer round. Floyd's jab and defense rule most of it, but Castillo actually cuts the ring and lands some shots. Still, he spent most of the round following and missing, and jabs are scoring punches. I'll say Floyd outboxed him this round. Have never felt those who scored this one for JLC are correct, because defense and ring generalship are score, too. 10-9 Floyd.
Round 4
I think Floyd nicked this one, but this is the first round he looked uncomfortable a bit in. Still ruling the day with his jab and movement, and actually switched to southpaw effectively real quick. Castillo finally landing some shots though, and finally making some defensive adjustments, blocking and slipping some shots. I have to go with Floyd, though. More punches, a bit cleaner work, and often seems to be leading Castillo on a chase, which is winning the generalship battle in my book. Close, and I wouldn't argue too hard if you scored it the other way, but I've got it 10-9 Mayweather.
Round 5
Body work vs. Clean head shots and effective boxing. Who you got? This was another fairly close one, but I'll take Mayweather again. More clean power shots, clean boxing, some jabs, some good stance switching. Finally, Castillo gets that body attack working, though, and he lands an absolute cracker of a left to the ribs in the round. Has a strong final minute, but I don't think he stole it. 10-9, Floyd.
Round 6
Castillo cuts the ring. Beautiful, finally. Floyd's jab is still popping, but it isn't landing anymore. Castillo has taken that punch away, and his angular attack has Floyd seeing ghosts: He's holding a lot. I don't think he likes missing, honestly, and that is mentally increasing the pressure JLC has him under. Castillo lands a beautiful right hand off of Floyd's confusion. Floyd is landing some shots back, but by and large, he's looking uncomfy, and he's getting worked to the body now. First round you can say was clear to JLC. Floyd doesn't have an argument, outlanded, harried, and harassed for three minutes. 10-9 JLC.
Round 7
Floyd is back to moving around and trying to potshot, but it isn't working anymore: JLC has figured out how to move and advance to disrupt his timing. JLC isn't pinning him or landing, but Floyd isn't controlling his motion or landing either. Floyd breaks the stalemate with a nice right. Floyd counters nicely a few times, but then JLC effectively corners him and does work. JLC working the body in the second minute, but getting countered effectively. JLC REALLY comes on late in the round, stepping off sharply and just ripping 'em off. His body work looks PAINFUL in the last couple of rounds. Closer round, but I still think you've gotta call it for JLC, pretty clear. JLC 10-9.
Round 8-
Mayweather FINALLY gets back to using his feet correctly. He makes a smart adjustment in this round: He steps backwards an extra half inch with his right feet when he responds to JLC's advances, which brings back the distance he had in the first 3. And everything is flowing off that distance, because JLC's footspeed just cannot match Mayweather's handspeed when it exists. The jab is back, and JLC's nose is bleeding in short order. JLC is sensing the tide turning, you can tell in his body language, and he's being vigorous to change that, but nothing is landing. The point deduction seems a bit harsh to me. 10-8, Mayweather. JLC needs a KD or more to win on my card now, though I wouldn't call you blind if you gave the 3rd or the 5th(THough I still think the 3rd was of the close but clear variety) to JLC.
Round 9
Mayweather lands his best shot of the night, a perfect counter right hand, and Castillo absorbs it without blinking, and you can SEE it take something from Mayweather. Mayweather's footwork is coming to pieces a bit, and here is JLC right back in with those quarter-advances(pressure fighters should just watch JLC's feet in these middle rounds, it's actually pretty impressive). JLC is landing body shots again, and is harrying Mayweather again. Mayweather isn't throwing the right anymore, I think this is when it broke if I remember correctly, and it shows. He can't keep JLC honest or off, and he's getting outworked and outgeneraled. Not a great JLC round, in that not much damage was done, but a very clear JLC round. 10-9, JLC. Btw, the shot after the bell would have been the time to take a point imo, and from Mayweather.

Lederman's card isn't bad, but I still don't see how you can give round 3 to JLC. Round 5 is fair.

Round 10
This round is the very definition of razor thin. Floyd comes out BLAZING in the first, with fire in his work. You can tell he's trying to make something stick, to blunt JLC, and JLC looks tired, so I think that's the right instinct. Mayweather just unloads, but then he looks a bit spent, and JLC comes on. Mayweather, correctly, is deduction for his favorite inside trick. This was a close round, but I like Mayweather's work. It was bigger, clearly more damaging, sharper. The zip is leaving JLC's shots, and though he won the last 90 seconds or so, it didn't look particularly damaging, persay, it was just a good load of work. 9-9 Mayweather.

Floyd is in distress in his corner, Roger looks incredibly flustered. Just thought I'd note.

Round 11
Mayweather is all but done: His right is clearly damaged, his left is fatigued, he's uncomfortable, he's in pain, and it's confusing him. He's right in front of JLC in this round. JLC is clearly slowing down, but he's taking the opportunity and just working, scoring wherever he can. Ugly round, but a very clear JLC round: He bosses it the whole way, and swamps his man. Floyd LOOKS bad. Suddenly, he wakes up, big shots. Wow, what a turn around. JLC bites his mouthpiece and keeps throwing, but Mayweather is BLASTING him all of a sudden. CLOSE round. I'm gonna give it to JLC 10-9, but I have NO problem seeing that one for Floyd. That was one of the closer rounds in the fight, right up with 5.

Round 12
Body work and some fouls by JLC, as is his staple in this fight. Mayweather looks like he has nothing left to offer, the zip is gone and the legs are wooden. JLC is the engine that could, just wading in this round, moving his hands. He's clearly tired too. JLC has a target, and slowly starts to really up his tempo and his zip- Putting more mustard into his punches as he realizes his target is no longer elusive. Some REAL power from JLC late. Floyd wants the round to end. Floyd reestablishes his jab late, seemingly willing to expend whatever his left arm has left to keep JLC off, and it works, but it nowhere near steals the round, and he winces whenever he pops it(Bet it felt like it weighed 10 lbs). 10-9 JLC, clear, clear round.

114-112, Mayweather. Just the better boxer. I thought he dominated the first half of the fight, and made a few key stands in the second half to save his night after he tired out and got hurt. His sense of timing and budgeting his draining reserves saved him this night: He won the round JLC lost a point in, and he won the round he himself lost a point in. Imo, that turned the fight. He definitely was the worse for wear fighter at the end, though. JLC with a gritty, dirty, skillfulling fought effort. Those body shots and low blows, I bet Floyd felt em for days. In the end, though, JLC entered round 6 in a pretty big hole, and when Floyd made a furious stand to blunt him AND saw a JLC point deducted in that round, it pretty much put the fight out of reach. I have to say, honestly, I think the 9-9 round is a clear one, and makes any talk of robbery a bit nonsensical, because it was JLC, not Floyd, who needed those points.


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## Luf

jlc - pbf

1: p
2: p
3: p
4: p
5: p
6: j
7: j
8: j
9: p
10: j
11: p
12: j

112-114

i thought rounds 5, 10 and 11 were razor thin. could have gone either way tbh the scorecards announced were wide as was lederman's.

good fight and floyd took more punishment than i remembered actually.

not a robbery though.


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## Magna

LOL on us agreeing almost completely. Even on which rounds were close. I can see a card with JLC winning, but I don't actually think it's the correct one; Floyd didn't get a gift, and JLC winning is giving him EVERY doubt. Fact is, Floyd dominated the first half of this fight. Round 5 was close, but round 3(A round I see given often to JLC) wasn't actually that close, was pretty clear. Floyd also CLEARLY picked up a 10-8 round, and that's pretty much all that needs to be said with the stupid robbery talk, imo.


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## Michael

Ive always have that fight fairly wide for Castillo, not scored it in years but I had it 115-111 on first viewing. Might not have been appreciating PBF's work though, got to check it out again.


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## Luf

Magna said:


> LOL on us agreeing almost completely. Even on which rounds were close. I can see a card with JLC winning, but I don't actually think it's the correct one; Floyd didn't get a gift, and JLC winning is giving him EVERY doubt. Fact is, Floyd dominated the first half of this fight. Round 5 was close, but round 3(A round I see given often to JLC) wasn't actually that close, was pretty clear. Floyd also CLEARLY picked up a 10-8 round, and that's pretty much all that needs to be said with the stupid robbery talk, imo.


yeah i like that jlc finished strongly like a champ but it can't overcome the start that floyd had, plus the late rounds he picked up.

close floyd victory is right for me, maybe even an md type victory would have been fair.


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## Magna

JLC deserves all the credit in the world. He had Floyd wanting OUT in that 12th round, but he didn't win. Frankly, I think Floyd would have been cheated a bit by a draw. Those first 4 or 5 rounds are just the difference. He had JLC just as shutdown as JLC had him worn down in the back half.

Really liked Floyd's left in this fight and JLC's footwork. Made for a REALLY interesting duel for range in spots. When Floyd could stay away, JLC had no answer for the jab, and that showed in the rematch.


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## Luf

Magna said:


> JLC deserves all the credit in the world. He had Floyd wanting OUT in that 12th round, but he didn't win. Frankly, I think Floyd would have been cheated a bit by a draw. Those first 4 or 5 rounds are just the difference. He had JLC just as shutdown as JLC had him worn down in the back half.
> 
> Really liked Floyd's left in this fight and JLC's footwork. Made for a REALLY interesting duel for range in spots. When Floyd could stay away, JLC had no answer for the jab, and that showed in the rematch.


i liked floyd switch hitting early on, one point he went southpaw, landed a lead uppercut through jlc's guard and spun out again, beautiful stuff.

i wouldn't argue with a draw though i do think the right man won.


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## Magna

Want to score the rematch?


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## fists of fury

Watched Mosley v Margarito last night...first time I had watched it. Great performance by Mosley, and highlights the difference between a world-class pro and a merely good one. 

Also watched Pacquiao v De La Hoya. Pac fought a tactically astute fight and I had forgotten just how once-sided it was. From the 4th round on, it was a whitewash. I don't think Oscar ever looked so bad.


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## Luf

Magna said:


> Want to score the rematch?


that's a clear one for me.

i'm interested in one of pac-marquez 3 or pac-bradley though?


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## Magna

Pac-Bradley makes me angry. BAD robbery, one that has never made any sense to me. Pac-Marquez III I'm up for, though.


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## Luf

Magna said:


> Pac-Bradley makes me angry. BAD robbery, one that has never made any sense to me. Pac-Marquez III I'm up for, though.


guess i'll see you in another 36 minutes :good


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## Luf

pac-jmm

1: p
2: m
3: p
4: m*
5: m
6: p
7: m
8: m
9: m*
10: p
11: m 
12: p

113-115

could see 4&9 going to pac, very very close fight imo. when i watched it live i had it a draw and today i still think it could have gone either way. would have loved marquez to get the decision as the underdog but i don't see a robbery.


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## tommygun711

Rewatched Bradley vs Provodnikov, such a great fight man. Bradley resembles Holyfield in every way imaginable. The only thing that he doesn't have that Holyfield had was power, Holyfield managed to stun alot of durable opponents and Bradley really has none of that.


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## Magna

We had it the same, but I viewed it a bit clearer with Marquez picking up the 3rd as well. Marquez controlled this fight: He was never in trouble, he was never confused, and he was always in command. He landed the better shots, his defense was nearly flawless, and he had Pacquaio reacting, hardly ever acting. I had it 116-112, and it felt a bit like a robbery to me. Mainly, the guy who won the fight didn't win the fight. He landed only a handful of significant shots, looked uncomfortable all night, and missed in amateurish fashion rather often. The guy making him miss, maneuvering him around the ring, and landing all the hard, clean shots walked away the loser, and that doesn't sit right with me.

I just don't see Pacquiao deserving to win this fight. I thought Marquez won all 4, truth be told, but Manny DEFINITELY had arguments in the first two. Those were close, and were nowhere near robberies or gifts. This fight, though, he came up short in literally every category but punch count, and that punch count was couple with aggression that was laughably uneffective. 

He didn't win. Plain and simple.


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## Magna

I loved how delightfully easy it was to score, too. Each round was absolutely crystal clear, and usually one-sided. I actually haven't seen that often, a fight with 12 one-sided frames that ends up being scored fairly close.

Bradley won easily, btw. Can't believe people found a way to give Prov 6 rounds.


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## Luf

Magna said:


> We had it the same, but I viewed it a bit clearer with Marquez picking up the 3rd as well. Marquez controlled this fight: He was never in trouble, he was never confused, and he was always in command. He landed the better shots, his defense was nearly flawless, and he had Pacquaio reacting, hardly ever acting. I had it 116-112, and it felt a bit like a robbery to me. Mainly, the guy who won the fight didn't win the fight. He landed only a handful of significant shots, looked uncomfortable all night, and missed in amateurish fashion rather often. The guy making him miss, maneuvering him around the ring, and landing all the hard, clean shots walked away the loser, and that doesn't sit right with me.
> 
> I just don't see Pacquiao deserving to win this fight. I thought Marquez won all 4, truth be told, but Manny DEFINITELY had arguments in the first two. Those were close, and were nowhere near robberies or gifts. This fight, though, he came up short in literally every category but punch count, and that punch count was couple with aggression that was laughably uneffective.
> 
> He didn't win. Plain and simple.


the punchstats (just like floyd-castillo) were way off imo.

i thought pac did confuse marquez with his footwork on a few occassions.

like i say though, i score it for jmm but i don't begrudge anyone thinking pac edged it.


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## Luf

pac - bradley

1: b
2: p
3: p
4: p
5: p
6: p
7: p
8: b
9: p*
10: b
11: p*
12:b

I personally scored it 116--12 to pacquiao. but i reckon rounds 1, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 could feasibly be scored for bradley if you're to give him every doubt. i don't see a possible 7th round to score for bradley thus i see no way in which he could be given the decision.

i say robbery.


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## turbotime

Finally got to see the Basilio/Saxtion rematch thanks to @Bladerunner. Had the first a close fight for Saxton and this time Saxton tried to really take it to Carmen and couldn't handle Carmen's inside stuff. Once Carmen started to touch the body more by the 5th Saxton was fighting to survive. Fight of the year in '56. Great fight, both guys landed bombs, and the stoppage for Carmen was perfect. :bbb Had Carmen up 6-2 at the stoppage


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## Luf

I though basilio bossed the first fight tbh.


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## turbotime

bossed?! It was definitely close. Only scored it once though.


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## jorodz

luf said:


> the punchstats (just like floyd-castillo) were way off imo.
> 
> i thought pac did confuse marquez with his footwork on a few occassions.
> 
> like i say though, i score it for jmm but i don't begrudge anyone thinking pac edged it.


punchstats are fucking ridiculous sometimes...mayweather-DLH credited floyd with landing about 50 more punches than he even threw


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## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> Finally got to see the Basilio/Saxtion rematch thanks to @Bladerunner. Had the first a close fight for Saxton and this time Saxton tried to really take it to Carmen and couldn't handle Carmen's inside stuff. Once Carmen started to touch the body more by the 5th Saxton was fighting to survive. Fight of the year in '56. Great fight, both guys landed bombs, and the stoppage for Carmen was perfect. :bbb Had Carmen up 6-2 at the stoppage


Good to know you figured that torrent stuff out and that now you can see the fights :good


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## Luf

jorodz said:


> punchstats are fucking ridiculous sometimes...mayweather-DLH credited floyd with landing about 50 more punches than he even threw


i totally ignore them mate, they are bs


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## O59

Minelli was fuckin' underrated, man. Tasty little boxer-puncher, gave Williams some trouble.


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## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Good to know you figured that torrent stuff out and that now you can see the fights :good


Kid in a candy store over here arty


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## Yiddle

just watched brian Mitchell in a non-title fight against danilo Cabrera over ten rounds 

Mitchell was always in command looked good defensively slipping punches well with good upper body movement and parried and caught punches well . offensively Mitchell threw a good jab with speed and accuracy and also threw good right hands to the body and to the head although at times looked a bit tense and certainly frustrated at times later in the fight due to Cabrera's movement and unwillingness to get involved in a fight. Cabrera may of been past his best at this stage of his career but if Mitchell had taken him for granted and not been prepared and in shape he may of proved a more difficult opponent . Cabrera started quickly in quite a few rounds but never kept this up and he was out punched by Mitchell and chose to be more defensive and was easily outscored and out boxed in nearly every round.

I scored every round to Mitchell the judges had it 100-90 , 100-91 and 100-92


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## Vic

Just watched Villasana vs Tyrone Downes. Villasana a beast.


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## Magna

I love these threads because obscure stuff comes up I've never even thought to watch. Some Tiozzo? Random, but golden.


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## jorodz

Gavilan Basilio
143 145

This was a tough damn fight to score. I ended with four even rounds as a result. I also scored the fight based on modern scoring rules and included a 10-8 round as a result. Basilio clearly controlled the first third, with Gavilan taking the mid-rounds and the final third being split between the two. Basilio's body attack was vicious, as was Gavilan's. The Keed's jab was also brutal. 

By the way, Gavilian fights and looks like a modern fighter. His jab, movement and generalship were brilliant.


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## Rattler

I watched Holyfield-Qawi I from the Omni in Atlanta - a fight I hadn't seen since the live airing of it 27 years ago. I remembered it being a war of attrition and my remembrance holds up. It was a fucking sauna in that building and Qawi was doing his thing in the fourth through sixth rounds when Holyfield turned up his volume and movement and started working Dwight's arms and ribs. Holy did enough in the latter rounds to earn a fairly small decision (I gave it to him 144-141).


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## zadfrak

Lykahovich-Brewster.

A personal favorite. I love the job between rounds Kenny Weldon did. My personal favorite between rounds instructions guiding a guy to a tough victory. Better than Atlas w/ Moorer. And what a dangerous tactic continually throwing those right hand leads to the body and not getting clipped by a Brewster left hook counter. A guy throwing that kind of punch against Lamon can end up in a heap like Krasniqi and have their career about over. Bu throwing those right hand leads and forcing Lamon to pay a toll. But it's the kind of bout and strategy where the tolls have to add up to big money. Not instantaneous results. Beautiful physically and outstanding discipline. That's kind of what this bout was anyway--oustanding disciplined slugfest.

Terrific back and forth fight and both guys hurt and digging deep. It's also nice to see accurate and dead nuts scoring in a DKP title bout, isn't it? But King never did love Lamon the way he loved some of his other guys. Just a guy on the roster and why he didn't get other and bigger name title shots, I just don't understand. But we witnessed too many bouts where the crowd saw the scoring 1 way and the 3 most important people saw it another way. Not this time and that just helps the sport so so much.


Nice win for Sergei and the guy was a big underdog. He just isn't the type to hold onto a title long & he sure didn't. I think he just dug so deep to come out of that Brewster fight with the win, he was not going to bring his A game against Shannon Briggs and he didn't. 

Terrifc brawl and one of the best back and forth heavyweight battles in a long time. I like it more than the Norton--Holmes fight even.


----------



## Yiddle

Vic said:


> Just watched Villasana vs Tyrone Downes. Villasana a beast.


Vic Villasana was indeed a beast his chin was like rock he was a hard man that would of been quite happy to dispense with the referee. His use of the head , elbow's and low blow's not just to the family jewels but also some very clever use of punches to the top of the leg .


----------



## Yiddle

Watched Brian Mitchell vs tony Lopez I & II . 

I have watched these fights a few times each since 91 . The first fight was to me a win for Mitchell by 3 pts each time time I have watched it and Lopez at home could usually rely on the judges anyway so a draw at the time did not totally surprise me. 

The second fight I had by 5 pts to Mitchell and this time the judges got it right (even at Sacramento )
When interviewed in the ring incredibly Lopez felt he had won .


----------



## fists of fury

Been giving the 175'ers some love recently, notably Saad Muhammad and Marvin Johnson. Their second fight was one of the finest brawls I've seen at the weight, amazing stuff. Also watched Johnson's KO over Galindez, and Saad's narrow victory over the excellent John Conteh. The division really was something else back then. 

Oh yeah, watched Corrie Sanders knock out Johnny Du Plooy as well. Both were wild as hell, and inevitably someone was going down.


----------



## Flea Man

@Sportofkings Esparragoza is uploading today :yep 3 or 4 fights I think.

First up; for @BoxedEars (that doesn't look right someone copy him in if I've got that wrong) and @chatty and @LittleRed I'll be uploading Chang-Zapata I so it's 'readily available'


----------



## Flea Man

zadfrak said:


> Lykahovich-Brewster.
> 
> A personal favorite. I love the job between rounds Kenny Weldon did. My personal favorite between rounds instructions guiding a guy to a tough victory. Better than Atlas w/ Moorer. And what a dangerous tactic continually throwing those right hand leads to the body and not getting clipped by a Brewster left hook counter. A guy throwing that kind of punch against Lamon can end up in a heap like Krasniqi and have their career about over. Bu throwing those right hand leads and forcing Lamon to pay a toll. But it's the kind of bout and strategy where the tolls have to add up to big money. Not instantaneous results. Beautiful physically and outstanding discipline. That's kind of what this bout was anyway--oustanding disciplined slugfest.
> 
> Terrific back and forth fight and both guys hurt and digging deep. It's also nice to see accurate and dead nuts scoring in a DKP title bout, isn't it? But King never did love Lamon the way he loved some of his other guys. Just a guy on the roster and why he didn't get other and bigger name title shots, I just don't understand. But we witnessed too many bouts where the crowd saw the scoring 1 way and the 3 most important people saw it another way. Not this time and that just helps the sport so so much.
> 
> Nice win for Sergei and the guy was a big underdog. He just isn't the type to hold onto a title long & he sure didn't. I think he just dug so deep to come out of that Brewster fight with the win, he was not going to bring his A game against Shannon Briggs and he didn't.
> 
> Terrifc brawl and one of the best back and forth heavyweight battles in a long time. I like it more than the Norton--Holmes fight even.


Then Briggs did what Brewster couldn't and somehow put Sergei away in Froch-Taylor fashion...only he was f'n gassed!


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> @Sportofkings Esparragoza is uploading today :yep 3 or 4 fights I think.
> 
> First up; for @BoxedEars (that doesn't look right someone copy him in if I've got that wrong) and @chatty and @LittleRed I'll be uploading Chang-Zapata I so it's 'readily available'


Where's the emoticon that says 'i'm in the refractory period'?


----------



## Rattler

Holyfield vs Dokes - Only a few guys, like Evander, could have a war like this on their resume and it's mentioned like an afterthought in light of the totality of their career. This was the fight that proved that Evander was a legit heavyweight. The 7th and 8th rounds, in particular, are quite taxing.


----------



## fists of fury

Rattler said:


> Holyfield vs Dokes - Only a few guys, like Evander, could have a war like this on their resume and it's mentioned like an afterthought in light of the totality of their career.


True.


----------



## Michael

Flea Man said:


> @Sportofkings Esparragoza is uploading today :yep 3 or 4 fights I think.
> 
> First up; for @BoxedEars (that doesn't look right someone copy him in if I've got that wrong) and @chatty and @LittleRed I'll be uploading Chang-Zapata I so it's 'readily available'


:good Good stuff, thought it was only going to be the one fight, it'll keep my occupied through the week, and the more Esparragoza on youtube the better


----------



## fists of fury

Saad vs Yaqui Lopez II...jeeezus, what a war. What warriors. What absolute warriors. I thought the first fight was pretty damn good, but this one tops it.


----------



## LittleRed

So I don't know how to post videos apparently, but its a short bio on jung koo-Chang. @Flea Man if you want a look. Or maybe we should call Lester. He speaks Korean right? Its 10 parts


----------



## jorodz

finally watched backus-napoles 2 and fuck was i impressed

Backus Napoles

63 70

This is at worst my second favourite use of the lead right. The announcer stated that the left hook is usually used against southpaws and if this is the match that made the straight right the go to punch, i can see why. Napoles' movement, both upper and lower body, his right and his left hook were on fire this night. Absolutely a pleasure to watch


----------



## LittleRed

What's your favorite use of the lead right?


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> What's your favorite use of the lead right?


it feels dirty to say but mayweather vs gatti


----------



## jorodz

now that i'm (randomly) drunk and high, it's time for marlon starling vs llody honeyghan

fuck me, starling is really becoming one of my favourite fighters. the simon brown fight was absolutely brilliant and this showed he could give mayweather a lesson in walking down your opponent. the way he can punch off that high guard was incredible. his jab and left hook were ridiculously accurate. he defense was outstanding. this may not be the best honeyghan but that shouldnt take a lot away from starling's performance


----------



## DB Cooper




----------



## LittleRed

You magpie!


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> You magpie!


magpie sounds bad...is that bad?


----------



## LittleRed

Its worse than stealing 40 cakes. And that's terrible.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> Its worse than stealing 40 cakes. And that's terrible.


who am i, lex luthor?!


----------



## LittleRed

Lex had the decency not to enjoy that fight.


----------



## Lester1583

If you ever pondered a Myung-Woo Yuh vs Hilario Zapata match-up Yuh-Joey Olivo is an interesting fight to watch.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> Lex had the decency not to enjoy that fight.


:-( you're right...


----------



## Luf

Footage of jack Dempsey.

I'm gonna say I think when he wanted to he had top class head movement. On the level of Frazier I reckon. And I'm gonna say I think he beats wlad. Watching him again recently I reckon I was underratin him previously.


----------



## Michael

luf said:


> Footage of jack Dempsey.
> 
> I'm gonna say I think when he wanted to he had top class head movement. On the level of Frazier I reckon. *And I'm gonna say I think he beats wlad. *Watching him again recently I reckon I was underratin him previously.


:haye Ridiculous matchup to even consider mate, no offence.


----------



## Luf

El SOK said:


> :haye Ridiculous matchup to even consider mate, no offence.


Had dempsey not destroyed every shw of his time I'd agree with you.

shot mormeck, that was a ridiculous matchup and it still happened.


----------



## Yiddle

luf said:


> Footage of jack Dempsey.
> 
> I'm gonna say I think when he wanted to he had top class head movement. On the level of Frazier I reckon. And I'm gonna say I think he beats wlad. Watching him again recently I reckon I was underratin him previously.


You are not alone wlad would find dempsey's aggression Very difficult to deal with psychically and mentally . to think Dempsey has no chance is ridiculous


----------



## jorodz

luf said:


> Footage of jack Dempsey.
> 
> I'm gonna say I think when he wanted to he had top class head movement. On the level of Frazier I reckon. And I'm gonna say I think he beats wlad. Watching him again recently I reckon I was underratin him previously.


i respect you a lot luf, so i'll take a second look. but i just watched some of the HQ footage of dempsey-willard and got bored. i just don't get dempsey. he was crude, but quick. horrible technique, decent head movement as you noted but at times fought like a thug that overwhelmed a farmer and has never impressed me in the footage available.

if we had his destruction of fulton, might sing a different tune though


----------



## Luf

jorodz said:


> i respect you a lot luf, so i'll take a second look. but i just watched some of the HQ footage of dempsey-willard and got bored. i just don't get dempsey. he was crude, but quick. horrible technique, decent head movement as you noted but at times fought like a thug that overwhelmed a farmer and has never impressed me in the footage available.
> 
> if we had his destruction of fulton, might sing a different tune though


see I reckon he wasn't crude, but he was reckless. Against Willard he boxed from the outside until he was able to slip a jab and get inside. He was famous for the Dempsey roll and slipped a 6 punch combo against a prime tunney. I have to believe he had the talent but sometimes got reckless.


----------



## Michael

luf said:


> _*Had dempsey not destroyed every shw of his time *_I'd agree with you.
> 
> shot mormeck, that was a ridiculous matchup and it still happened.


Yeah but Wlad isnt some lumbering oaf like Jess Willard. he's a superb technical fighter with a lot of things that would render Dempsey ineffective. A great jab, big physical dimensions, 5 inches taller, 60 pounds heavier and with a far longer reach than Dempsey. Plus Wlad knows how to utilize his height very well, keeping his opponents at a big distance while leaning on smaller men. Not to mention his quick hands and huge power. Dempsey could hit really hard, was very tough and maybe like you said his skillset was unappreciated (although ive not been very impressed with the footage ive seen of him tbh) but we're talking far too big a challenge here. Dempsey would have to walk through a lot of firepower, just to even get close to Wlad and get destroyed, almost sure of it.


----------



## jorodz

luf said:


> see I reckon he wasn't crude, but he was reckless. Against Willard he boxed from the outside until he was able to slip a jab and get inside. He was famous for the Dempsey roll and slipped a 6 punch combo against a prime tunney. I have to believe he had the talent but sometimes got reckless.


reckless may be a good term for it. what examples do you have of dempsey at his peak, his most effectiven? I have trouble with willard because he was a semi-retired farmer who had little more than a jab and stamina at his best. it is similar to using roy jones against rick frazier to show his versality or zoo against chavez to see how he'd deal with all time great.

slipping willards jab, THAT willard, does not really tell us how he'd handle a world class jab like wlad's. i haven't seen (or don't recall) the 6 punch combo he slipped against tunney (which is impressive) but he still lost virtually every round of those fights. adding in the performance against firpo, i see the recklessness and aggression. I don't see world class skills that translate to any era


----------



## Luf

El SOK said:


> Yeah but Wlad isnt some lumbering oaf like Jess Willard. he's a superb technical fighter with a lot of things that would render Dempsey ineffective. A great jab, big physical dimensions, 5 inches taller, 60 pounds heavier and with a far longer reach than Dempsey. Plus Wlad knows how to utilize his height very well, keeping his opponents at a big distance while leaning on smaller men. Not to mention his quick hands and huge power. Dempsey could hit really hard, was very tough and maybe like you said his skillset was unappreciated (although ive not been very impressed with the footage ive seen of him tbh) but we're talking far too big a challenge here. Dempsey would have to walk through a lot of firepower, just to even get close to Wlad and get destroyed, almost sure of it.


That's something I don't necessarily disagree with.

I think if anything the "too big" argument is ridiculous given what jack achieved. You're talking from a stylistic point of view.

For me I think jack with stalk cautiously from the outside but at some point in the early rounds wlad will throw a jab that jack slips and once he's in range his aggression will be too much for wlad. As wlad tries clinching jack will be landing huge hooks that will hurt wlad. We know wlad can't take punches well and his inside game is throwing a blanket around his opponents. We know Jack is faster and everyone he hit, he hurt.

What we don't know is if Jack would be able to slip the jab. Footage is inconclusive and divisive but I'm willing to make the leap and say he could do it. 50/50 fight but I reckon jack does get inside and does stop him.


----------



## Luf

jorodz said:


> reckless may be a good term for it. what examples do you have of dempsey at his peak, his most effectiven? I have trouble with willard because he was a semi-retired farmer who had little more than a jab and stamina at his best. it is similar to using roy jones against rick frazier to show his versality or zoo against chavez to see how he'd deal with all time great.
> 
> slipping willards jab, THAT willard, does not really tell us how he'd handle a world class jab like wlad's. i haven't seen (or don't recall) the 6 punch combo he slipped against tunney (which is impressive) but he still lost virtually every round of those fights. adding in the performance against firpo, i see the recklessness and aggression. I don't see world class skills that translate to any era


there's a gif knocking about of that combo, someone will post it, someone has already on the thread I made about him.

The way he starts against Willard and Firpo tells me about his slipping ability. He doesn't get reckless until he hurts them at which point he sees red and goes all out. The way he outboxed gibbons and carpentier is a great indicator of his skills because he didn't just destroy them, both could match his speed and mobility. He actually boxed them and shut them down. He begins to walk through carpentier when he does actually get hit but I think he sensed he was flagging by the end.

It's not an opinion I'm resolute about. The footage is not conclusive by any means and the quality isn't the best. It's just that I'm on the side of those who saw him live and I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt.


----------



## Lester1583

Just watched Santos Laciar destroying Huichi Hozumi.

Tyson wishes he was as good with his peek-a-boo defense as Mini-Galindez was.

Sadly, poor Mike was only a pale imitiation.


----------



## LittleRed

Why isn't he in the hall of fame? Gatti and Mark Johnson yes but Falucho is looking in...


----------



## O59

Marcel drawing over fifteen rounds against Shibata. Fuck me, I love both men, perhaps Shibata more than Marcel. Both were tremendously skilled and fluid. Kuniaki had a very nice jab and threw some excellent combinations throughout. I didn't keep score but I felt that Marcel should of walked away the victor, coming on very well in the latter stages of the fight.

With Shibata you get the sense that he understood exactly _when_ to punch to an exceptional degree. I'm of the opinion he gets terribly underrated today, he's essential viewing in my opinion. As is Marcel of course. Very enjoyable fight also, I highly recommend. Shibata was a brilliant counter-puncher.


----------



## O59

Luf said:


> That's something I don't necessarily disagree with.
> 
> I think if anything the "too big" argument is ridiculous given what jack achieved. You're talking from a stylistic point of view.
> 
> For me I think jack with stalk cautiously from the outside but at some point in the early rounds wlad will throw a jab that jack slips and once he's in range his aggression will be too much for wlad. As wlad tries clinching jack will be landing huge hooks that will hurt wlad. We know wlad can't take punches well and his inside game is throwing a blanket around his opponents. We know Jack is faster and everyone he hit, he hurt.
> 
> What we don't know is if Jack would be able to slip the jab. Footage is inconclusive and divisive but I'm willing to make the leap and say he could do it. 50/50 fight but I reckon jack does get inside and does stop him.


No way. I've begun to appreciate Dempsey more so than in the past where I kind of brushed him off as a H2H force; However, making him a 50/50 opponent against Wladimir Klitschko is ludicrous to me.

The argument doesn't simply rest on Wladimir being too large, or too heavy, etc. But rather that combined with his ability as a fighter. He's not a big guy feasting on smaller fighters because of his ridiculous size-advantage and power, he's a big guy with a tremendous amount of skill, nous and experience, completely debilitating all of the men put in front of him. Dempsey is not only outgunned heavily on the outside where he'd struggle mightily to avoid the jabs and right hands of Wladimir, but on the inside he'd be clinched and leaned on. I know Dempsey is a destructive puncher, but being leaned on by a massive man and thumping away at his ribs for a few moments before being broken up isn't going to "hurt" Wladimir. If he wished to actually damage Wladimir, he'd have to get all of his leverage and torque behind a picture-perfect hook. Which he'll never land due to being constantly off balance.

He'd be leaping in, falling at Wladimir with his punches in an attempt to track him down, only to find himself lagging behind a man who has spent the better part of nine, to almost ten years, perfecting the art of negating offense and pressure.

He'll be getting caught with jabs constantly, or at least touched up with them, the weight of the punches keeping him off balance and tentative to make a move after he feels the power. Wladimir stops him.


----------



## O59

Luf said:


> Had dempsey not destroyed every shw of his time I'd agree with you.
> 
> shot mormeck, that was a ridiculous matchup and it still happened.


It does indicate a distinct size advantage meant little if the super-heavyweights was fighting were laborious oafs, but for example, would David Haye not completely annihilate those same opponents?


----------



## Luf

orriray59 said:


> It does indicate a distinct size advantage meant little if the super-heavyweights was fighting were laborious oafs, but for example, would David Haye not completely annihilate those same opponents?


I think the main thing I'm saying is Dempsey - Wlad should be discussed from a stylistic pov not a size pov.

By 50/50 I mean I can easily envision either scenario - wlad jabs fuck out of jack and stops him; jack slips wlad and pushes his shit in.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Why isn't he in the hall of fame?


Most people never saw or heard of Laciar-Roman epic trilogy.


----------



## O59

Luf said:


> I think the main thing I'm saying is Dempsey - Wlad should be discussed from a stylistic pov not a size pov.
> 
> By 50/50 I mean I can easily envision either scenario - wlad jabs fuck out of jack and stops him; jack slips wlad and pushes his shit in.


Fair enough.


----------



## Lester1583

orriray59 said:


> Shibata Shibata was a brilliant counter-puncher.


Clemente Sanchez-Shibata ending is quite curious.

Check out Shibata-Villaflor 2 to see why Flea rates Villaflor over Marcel.


----------



## Luf

I thought Marcel clearly beat Shibata tbh


----------



## tommygun711

Watched Gavilan vs Cartier today, Gavilan was a real great talent tbh. The way he would sling those uppercuts/left hooks were crazy. he might be one of my favorite combination punchers of all time, just the way he shoots with those combos is so aesthetically pleasing. Easily a top 10 welterweight of all time, no doubt about it. Fucking brilliant right hand to end it.


----------



## O59

Lester1583 said:


> Clemente Sanchez-Shibata ending is quite curious.
> 
> Check out Shibata-Villaflor 2 to see why Flea rates Villaflor over Marcel.


Will do. :thumbsup

Flea rates Villaflor over Marcel?

Shee-batah! Shee-batah!


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> Watched Gavilan vs Cartier today, Gavilan was a real great talent tbh. The way he would sling those uppercuts/left hooks were crazy. he might be one of my favorite combination punchers of all time, just the way he shoots with those combos is so aesthetically pleasing. Easily a top 10 welterweight of all time, no doubt about it. Fucking brilliant right hand to end it.


aesthetically pleasing for sure. top 10 guaranteed


----------



## Lester1583

Joey Archer would have been a stylistic nightmare for many fighters - Eubank, McCallum, Valdez, etc.

Just an excellent boxer-mover.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Clemente Sanchez-Shibata ending is quite curious.
> 
> Check out Shibata-Villaflor 2 to see why Flea rates Villaflor over Marcel.


Don't, because if I don't notice people might actually think it's true.

You uploading Yuh-Olivo to YouTube then?

I have Chang-Zapata I COMPLETE spread over two discs but one of 'em won't copy :fire


----------



## Flea Man

orriray59 said:


> Marcel drawing over fifteen rounds against Shibata. Fuck me, I love both men, perhaps Shibata more than Marcel. Both were tremendously skilled and fluid. Kuniaki had a very nice jab and threw some excellent combinations throughout. I didn't keep score but I felt that Marcel should of walked away the victor, coming on very well in the latter stages of the fight.
> 
> With Shibata you get the sense that he understood exactly _when_ to punch to an exceptional degree. I'm of the opinion he gets terribly underrated today, he's essential viewing in my opinion. As is Marcel of course. Very enjoyable fight also, I highly recommend. Shibata was a brilliant counter-puncher.


He was inconsistent though, although I agree his skill level was top notch, stamina and chin were not.

I think his ability to step back, make his opponent miss then land the left hook counter were phenomenal. Often left that jab out there to tempt his foe, and Marcel was switched on and fell for it.


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> Watched Gavilan vs Cartier today, Gavilan was a real great talent tbh. The way he would sling those uppercuts/left hooks were crazy. he might be one of my favorite combination punchers of all time, just the way he shoots with those combos is so aesthetically pleasing. Easily a top 10 welterweight of all time, no doubt about it. Fucking brilliant right hand to end it.


Has to be top 5 @ 147 all time


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> I thought Marcel clearly beat Shibata tbh


:good


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> You uploading Yuh-Olivo to YouTube then?


:-(



Flea Man said:


> I have Chang-Zapata I COMPLETE spread over two discs but one of 'em won't copy :fire


LittleRed's gonna think you're doing it on purpose cuz you're affraid that everybody will see for themselves that Chang's supposedly best performance is not really that impressive.:twisted


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> :-(
> 
> LittleRed's gonna think you're doing it on purpose cuz you're affraid that everybody will see for themselves that Chang's supposedly best performance is not really that impressive.:twisted


It's actually pissed me off as I aim to provide a service to all like-minded boxing lovers. I have a version which has the supposedly lost last round, but is missing round 3.

The other one, which won't copy, has the 14th and 15th rounds screwed up but has the 3rd round. Was gonna' edit 'em together but too depressed about all sorts so it ain't happening.

Nazarov-Thobela II, Wolgast-Montana etc etc etc ain't coming now either. I might just chuck this boxing lark in, too much hassle.EDIT: Nazarov-Thobela II HAS ARRIVED!!! @Vysotky (is that how you spell it? Someone let him know please)


----------



## Yiddle

Watched khaokor galaxy vs sung-kil moon (II) 

I scored it 
Galaxy-118 , moon-111


----------



## Flea Man

Yiddle said:


> Watched khaokor galaxy vs sung-kil moon (II)
> 
> I scored it
> Galaxy-118 , moon-111


The score?!!!? THE FUCKING SCORE?!!!? WHO CARES??!

What the Hell did you think of the performance? nice score by the way


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> :-(
> 
> LittleRed's gonna think you're doing it on purpose cuz you're affraid that everybody will see for themselves that Chang's supposedly best performance is not really that impressive.:twisted


I don't want to live! I don't want to live!


----------



## Yiddle

Flea Man said:


> The score?!!!? THE FUCKING SCORE?!!!? WHO CARES??!
> 
> What the Hell did you think of the performance? nice score by the way


Galaxy for me is at his best and boxes well and his counter punching is the best I have seen from him . Moon if anything is a little below his best, Moon for meat the start of the fight he is not as aggressive as I have seen in some of his previous fights and in the first few rounds seems to be jumping in rather than punching in . This probably helps galaxy settle very quickly into the fight and counter well. Most rounds are competitive in round 5 though moon stands off a little to much and allows galaxy to use his jab to set up some good combo's . Round 10 for me is moon's round which he needed badly unfortunately for moon round 11 is a biggy for galaxy although moon didn't start the round to badly he is caught by galaxy and gives ground . Galaxy continues to score well in the 11th moving forward and scoring well with combo's and scores a well enough for moon to take two counts. In the 12th Moon tries to finish as strongly as he can and galaxy is content to not get to involved keeps a healthy distance but continues to land some eye catching combo's


----------



## jorodz

middle of watching broner-Ponce De Leon

assuming @FleaMan will hate my score...


----------



## jorodz

Sorry flea...

Broner	DeLeon

10	9
good right hand, bossing him and commanding fight /deleon's body attack was ineffective. PDL threw more, hit nothing

10	10
keeping pdl off balance, neither landing much. pdl some to the body, broner dominating the pace and distance. repeated rights by broner pdl's body attack again is unimpressive

9	10
pdl taking charge, landing to the head of body, counters from broner are brutal but infrequent, stuck in amateur status where body punches don't count?

9	10
PDL took this (barely) by working the ladder, broner not as accurate as normal, counters are there but a passive broner. broner changed the texture 
at the end but a late flurry by pdl stole it

10	9
broner loosens up. arms moving, walking pdl down, right hand on point. again and again. pdl getting counter before he even throws a punch.
left hook shaping up as well. defense is fantastic. pdl landed only 2 punches...

10	9
great counter uppercuts by broner. pdl is all offense and some body attacks get in but not many. broner full shoulder roll now and 
getting comfy with the stance

10	9
slow round but completely controlled by Broner. PDL landed a few good punches but not enough. not seeing any controversy yet. even if i score my swing round for pdl, it's a draw

10	9
slow round and not much happening. again the action picks up at the end but broner controlled the pace, distance and type of round it was. 


10	9
broner has completely neutralized pdl's attack (as i type this pdl scores a left) while landing enough counters to take the round. boring but effective. i admire pdl for throwing but he's JUST NOT LANDING

10	9
PDL lands to the body, broner to the head. but PDL didn't throw until the final minute, broner took the first 2 with lefts and rights. my scoring criteria feels inconsistent because sooooo many close rounds that appear nearly identical with some for pdl, some for broner. but broner sneaks away with rounds by a few clean punches. 

9	10
pdl landing hard and accurate. if he took the fight to broner did effectively, he could have won this. broner comes in halfway and hits pdl hard, snapping his neck back. pdl overextending himself constantly 

97-94 for Broner. Overall the ROUNDS were close if the fight wasn't. Every round was hard fought and tough to score and with my swing rounds, i could easily see a draw. but not a win for pdl. he threw hard and often and early, he scored. but by the 5th he just wasn't hitting anything but arms consistently. if you have him sweeping the first 4 (i didn't) then he could get a draw. i can't and it's a relatively poor showing by a still defensive broner


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Nazarov-Thobela II HAS ARRIVED!!!


:ibutt


----------



## LittleRed

Midget Wolgast makes up for any other problems. Goes.down smooth.

Montana looks good to- solid, busy jab.


----------



## Lester1583

Yiddle said:


> Moon if anything is a little below his best


Kill-Moon wasn't at his best mentally.

His trainer died the night before the fight.

I believe I've also heard that Moon also got sick before the fight.


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Midget Wolgast makes up for any other problems. Goes.down smooth.
> 
> Montana looks good to- solid, busy jab.


:good Nice bit of footage that, eh?


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> :good Nice bit of footage that, eh?


I'm shocked but Rodolfo Martinez actually wasn't shit.

Could it be that Zarate's resume wasn't shit too?

Somewhere out there Addie is screaming in disbelief.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> I'm shocked but Rodolfo Martinez actually wasn't shit.
> 
> Could it be that Zarate's resume wasn't shit too?
> 
> Somewhere out there Addie is screaming in disbelief.


More Rodolfo to come, more early round stoppages and a full 10 rounder as well :good

You need to restart Tszyu, Arbachakov, Nazarov, Grigorian thread and bring all the posts over as Nazarov-Thobela II is going up tonight :yep

You watched Oguma mercing that fella yet??


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> More Rodolfo to come, more early round stoppages and a full 10 rounder as well :good


Nice.

Martinez is an interesting fighter.

And after all Rodolfo is the guy who beat Beaver Kajimoto - this win alone makes him an ATG.



Flea Man said:


> You need to restart


Nah.

You should create a thread "Orzubek crushes Chavez, Duran and Mayweather" and make it a sticky.

Anyone who disagrees must be banned forever.



Flea Man said:


> You watched Oguma mercing that fella yet??


Yup, Oguma was a bad man - dirty and tough.

What's the other fight in this video? You know the one that ends with a 6-th round stoppage?


----------



## dyna

Already said it in my thread but anyway
http://sosoboxing.com/boxing-video-watch-online/danell-nicholson-vs-john-ruiz/

John Ruiz vs Danell Nicholson
Ruiz was a fun fighter to watch in his younger days and his swarmer style.
He started fading a bit after the first few rounds but it was still good to watch.


----------



## Lester1583

Not a great fighter but Jose Stable is definitely an interesting fighter to watch.


----------



## Flea Man

@Lester1583 I dunno' but I liked him. Nice punching technique and offensive counter punching.


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> :good Nice bit of footage that, eh?


Tragic really, that we don't have more of the little guys from that era. But they both look very modern and very skilled.

Also all aboard the Rodolfo Martinez train. His switch hitting made Marvin Hagler sit up in his grave.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> @Lester1583 I dunno' but I liked him. Nice punching technique and offensive counter punching.


Also good feet, excellent feints and versatility.

I believe Griffith (fuckin' Griffith again!) fight really affected him - he was never the same after the fight.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Also good feet, excellent feints and versatility.
> 
> I believe Griffith (fuckin' Griffith again!) fight really affected him - he was never the same after the fight.


Sorry I was talking about random Jap' on my video :lol:

I love Stable though, as you know. You sorting me out with the Griffith fight then? :yep


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Tragic really, that we don't have more of the little guys from that era. But they both look very modern and very skilled.
> 
> Also all aboard the Rodolfo Martinez train. His switch hitting made Marvin Hagler sit up in his grave.


Got some Shirai as well, a Jap fly title fight and his 2nd fight with Marino (Dado gets battered in 7 rounds)


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Sorry I was talking about random Jap' on my video :lol:


Damn, so this fight still remains a mystery:verysad



Flea Man said:


> You sorting me out with the Griffith fight then? :yep


I haven't even seen the fight:verysad

Just read about it.

I also remember Raging Bull (?) said that Stable trained very hard for Griffith, really gave his all, but never recovered after the loss.


----------



## LittleRed

The lesson as always- Emile Griffith ruins everything.

Interestingly I know nothing about Dado Marino. Shirai is the guy who gets his ticket punched by Perez right. What is a dado anyway? I'm sure I've read that nickname.before.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> :good Nice bit of footage that, eh?





LittleRed said:


> Midget Wolgast makes up for any other problems. Goes.down smooth.
> Montana looks good to- solid, busy jab.


Good upload.

Wolgast's amazing jumping hooks and showmanship vs Benny Lynch's dancing and kayoing style would have been great.

Montana does look pretty good too.


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> The lesson as always- Emile Griffith ruins everything.
> 
> Interestingly I know nothing about Dado Marino. Shirai is the guy who gets his ticket punched by Perez right. What is a dado anyway? I'm sure I've read that nickname.before.


You're likely thinking of Little Dado, the Filipino flyweight who belongs in the same bracket as Wolgast, Montana, Newsboy etc etc but his best came a couple of years later (IIRC)

Dado Marino fought Rinty Monaghan, Terry Allen (@McGrain I have some footage of Allen Vs Shirai as well, but predictably it's more Oriental geezers clapping in the audience than fisticuffs) and Shirai a few times. A perennial contender, scrappy and hard working, no ATG but a top ten fighter in any flyweight era I bet, bridesmaid material though.....the footage is beautiful though, and Shirai looks class in it.

I also have Flash Elorde - Kosaka 5....not checked it out yet.

Oh, and Mike Gibbons Vs Mike O'Dowd, 10 round fight, O'Dowd was the middleweight champ' at the time, loads of pre-fight training footage as well....don't know whether to upload it though because it will inevitably provoke 'old timers were shit' responses.....


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> I haven't even seen the fight:verysad
> 
> Just read about it.


Okay, it's down to me to sort it out then is it? Very well.

I have Chionoi-Hanagata I as well...but cannot trade or upload although, as with all my untradeable stuff (have a Chang fight no one even knows exists) anyone is welcome round to watch it round my gaff any time.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Oh, and Mike Gibbons Vs Mike O'Dowd, 10 round fight, O'Dowd was the middleweight champ' at the time, loads of pre-fight training footage as well....don't know whether to upload it though because it will inevitably provoke 'old timers were shit' responses.....


Do Gibbons and O'Dowd look outdated?


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Do Gibbons and O'Dowd look outdated?


I don't think anyone looks 'outdated' so-to-speak, but it's fairly scrappy, although watching Mike is great, you see the same deft head movement and reflexes Tommy implemented. It's a great watch either way, what with training footage as well.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Do Gibbons and O'Dowd look outdated?


I don't think anyone looks 'outdated' so-to-speak, but it's fairly scrappy, although watching Mike is great, you see the same deft head movement and reflexes Tommy implemented. It's a great watch either way, what with training footage as well.


----------



## Vysotsky

Flea Man said:


> You're likely thinking of Little Dado, the Filipino flyweight who belongs in the same bracket as Wolgast, Montana, Newsboy etc etc but his best came a couple of years later (IIRC)
> 
> Dado Marino fought Rinty Monaghan, Terry Allen (@McGrain I have some footage of Allen Vs Shirai as well, but predictably it's more Oriental geezers clapping in the audience than fisticuffs) and Shirai a few times. A perennial contender, scrappy and hard working, no ATG but a top ten fighter in any flyweight era I bet, bridesmaid material though.....the footage is beautiful though, and Shirai looks class in it.
> 
> I also have Flash Elorde - Kosaka 5....not checked it out yet.
> 
> *Oh, and Mike Gibbons Vs Mike O'Dowd, 10 round fight*, O'Dowd was the middleweight champ' at the time, loads of pre-fight training footage as well....don't know whether to upload it though because it will inevitably provoke 'old timers were shit' responses.....


w..t...f... you have that and are willing to upload it? Please god.


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> Has to be top 5 @ 147 all time


what does your list look like? your list too, @jorodz


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> what does your list look like? your list too, @jorodz


There is a thread from last week about top 10 welters where I gave my top five, but I'll do what I always do and go straight off the dome

1. Robinson
2. Leonard
3. Gavilan
4. Britton
5. Napoles


----------



## jorodz

gonna try to avoid seeing flea's cause i'll just copy it

1.Robinson 
2.Gavilan
3.Leonard
4.Napoles
5.Walcott


----------



## LittleRed

Vysotsky said:


> w..t...f... you have that and are willing to upload it? Please god.


Don't do it flea! Don't!

Top 147

1. Mayweather Jr
2. Cuevas
3. Pac
4. Mosley
5. Barbados Joe Walcott


----------



## tommygun711

LittleRed said:


> 1. Mayweather Jr
> 2. Cuevas
> 3. Pac
> 4. Mosley
> 5. Barbados Joe Walcott


You're kidding right? atsch


----------



## tommygun711

LittleRed said:


> 1. Mayweather Jr
> 2. Cuevas
> 3. Pac
> 4. Mosley
> 5. Barbados Joe Walcott


You're kidding right? atsch


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> You're kidding right? atsch


:lol: the sole rational pick in walcott is a dead giveaway


----------



## O59

tommygun711 said:


> You're kidding right? atsch


No, he's not.


----------



## O59

tommygun711 said:


> You're kidding right? atsch


No, he's not.


----------



## LittleRed

Am I?


----------



## LittleRed

Am I?


----------



## O59

Difficult to tell.

EDIT: Duplicate post. :-(


----------



## Michael

Watched a prime Juan Manuel Marquez beat up veteran five time world champion Manuel Medina. Been wanting to see this one for quite a while, but it just hadn't been uploaded anywhere. Great performance from Marquez, hardly put a foot wrong and was punch perfect with everything he threw to the head and body, unbelievable accuracy. Though Medina was really game, any time he would attempt to come forward, or open up and land a a shot, he'd get back double what he gave from Marquez's counter punches. You'll rarely see a more picture perfect series of punches than the knockdown in round two, at about 10:34 of this video. Marquez counters a lunging right hand from Medina with a left hook, right hand, left uppercut combination, sending Medina down. Bet he was seeing stars after that one:yep






But yeah after a prolonged beating and another knockdown in the 7th round, the ref called a halt to the action after the ring doctor had a look at Medina's battered face. One of the best performances of Marquez's career for me here, especially considering Medina, although a little past his prime was no slouch went on to beat Scott Harrison for a featherweight belt the very same year to lost to Juan Manuel.


----------



## Lester1583

Orzubek Nazarov - Dingaan Thobela 2 has been uploaded:ibutt

Flea has now officially surpassed rayrobinson333 as the P4P#1.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Orzubek Nazarov - Dingaan Thobela 2 has been uploaded:ibutt
> 
> Flea has now officially surpassed rayrobinson333 as the P4P#1.


He's a sexy Scotch-Korean Jim Jacobs.


----------



## AlFrancis

Sugar Ray Leonard-Marvin Hagler
I know this has had plenty of threads of his own but I just watched it again after all these years. Saw it differently but still had Leonard winning 115-114 or 6-5-1 in rounds. Definitely close enough for an argument both ways but no robbery. It would of been just as controversial if Hagler had got it if not more. I'd forgotten what a great fight it was. Seems to me that Leonard gets knocked for moving but he stood his ground and landed some great shots through most of the fight and with his feet planted, even in the rounds he lost. People are talking about the last round as if that's the story of the fight but I didn't see it like that. I did gave Hagler the last round as it happens. The first 4 rounds cost Marvin big, he didn't seem to start coming on till late in the 4th and it was an uphill battle then.


----------



## Yiddle

Watched willie toweel vs Len Matthews .

Toweel for me was the better boxer and was able to out score Matthews in the majority in the rounds 6-3-1 . but the fight was always good to watch as Matthews was always in the fight and carried the heavier fire power . Putting toweel down twice in the 8th which if scoring on the 10pt must system brought them on Pts on my card . This mix of boxer vs power hitter made this fight a good match-up and well worth a watch


----------



## Yiddle

AlFrancis said:


> Sugar Ray Leonard-Marvin Hagler
> I know this has had plenty of threads of his own but I just watched it again after all these years. Saw it differently but still had Leonard winning 115-114 or 6-5-1 in rounds. Definitely close enough for an argument both ways but no robbery. It would of been just as controversial if Hagler had got it if not more. I'd forgotten what a great fight it was. Seems to me that Leonard gets knocked for moving but he stood his ground and landed some great shots through most of the fight and with his feet planted, even in the rounds he lost. People are talking about the last round as if that's the story of the fight but I didn't see it like that. I did gave Hagler the last round as it happens. The first 4 rounds cost Marvin big, he didn't seem to start coming on till late in the 4th and it was an uphill battle then.


Hagler won


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## AlFrancis

Yiddle said:


> Hagler won


:smile:smile. Watch it again and tell us how you scored it!


----------



## Yiddle

AlFrancis said:


> :smile:smile. Watch it again and tell us how you scored it!


I will try to fit it in over the weekend but tonight if I can I was going to watch a little watanabe a fighter I am not sold on


----------



## AlFrancis

Yiddle said:


> I will try to fit it in over the weekend but tonight if I can I was going to watch a little watanabe a fighter I am not sold on


:good:good


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


>


That's the first fight, right?


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> He's a sexy Scotch-Korean Jim Jacobs.


:lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> That's the first fight, right?


Yes.

Orzubek was a thunderous bodypuncher.

De La Hoya's weak body would have been destroyed in 2 rounds.

Or less.


----------



## Lester1583

orriray59 said:


> I'm of the opinion he gets terribly underrated today, he's essential viewing in my opinion. As is Marcel of course. Very enjoyable fight also, I highly recommend. Shibata was a brilliant counter-puncher.


Antonio Gomez who fought Marcel twice, beat a young Cervantes, DeJesus and retired Saijo is another forgotten skilled featherweight champion who is worth a look.


----------



## O59

Lester1583 said:


> Antonio Gomez who fought Marcel twice, beat a young Cervantes, DeJesus and retired Saijo is another forgotten skilled featherweight champion who is worth a look.


Marcel beat him _twice._ One of Ernesto's better opponents.

Gonna have to check out more Gomez footage when my laptop isn't a mess.


----------



## Lester1583

orriray59 said:


> Marcel beat him _twice._ One of Ernesto's better opponents.


To be fair A.Gomez was past his prime by the time Marcel beat him.

He declined very quickly.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> To be fair A.Gomez was past his prime by the time Marcel beat him.
> 
> He declined very quickly.


Other than @Bill Jingcock saying he heard from someone that he possibly partied his ass off post-title, I'm not sure. Either way, I'll take Marcel to beat him anyway prime for prime, seeing how he completely dominated him and was the only man to stop him.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> I'm not sure.


Those party stories simply explained the cause of Gomez's decline.

Not to take anything away from Marcel - he put on a masterclass against Gomez,
but Antonio clearly didn't look like the same fighter who stopped Saijo.



Flea Man said:


> I'll take Marcel to beat him anyway prime for prime, seeing how he completely dominated him and was the only man to stop him.


I don't think a past-prime loss necessarily means a prime loss.

But I do agree that Marcel was a better fighter and would have beaten any version of A.Gomez.


----------



## jorodz

Julio Cesar Chavez Juan Laporte

Wow! What a fucking battle. This was like Castillo/Corrales...but better. Laporte was fucking amazing, his defense, his chin and his right hand were stellar. I have NEVER seen Chavez backed up...but Laporte did it. He also stunned him with some rights. Stunned Chavez! Chavez was incredible as usual. His right hand is like a laser and as good as that left hook to the body is, his straight right is better. As for my score. Fucking brutal fight to score. Any one of 9 rounds could have gone the other way really. I had a draw, i stand by it but i'm not married to it

Chavez	Laporte
10	10
10	9
9	10
9	10
10	9
10	9
10	9
9	10
10	10
10	9
9	10
9	10

115	115


----------



## O59

Watching Chang-Zapata I now, just finished the first round. Chang is such a dynamic offensive fighter, I fucking love him. Very unorthodox feinting, designed to offset Zapata's rhythm obviously.

EDIT: Unfortunately, the third round seems to be missing. Fuck.


----------



## Brownies

Colin Jones vs Milton McCrory II... Stumble upon this by accident and it's a really good fight. I may go back and score it because it looked really close.


----------



## Flea Man

orriray59 said:


> Watching Chang-Zapata I now, just finished the first round. Chang is such a dynamic offensive fighter, I fucking love him. Very unorthodox feinting, designed to offset Zapata's rhythm obviously.
> 
> EDIT: Unfortunately, the third round seems to be missing. Fuck.


Yeah but unlike all other versions the 15th is here! I have the 3rd round on another disc but it won't copy :twisted:

Stick with it, trust me it's worth it.


----------



## Yiddle

Brownies said:


> Colin Jones vs Milton McCrory II... Stumble upon this by accident and it's a really good fight. I may go back and score it because it looked really close.


A fight of two halves


----------



## O59

Flea Man said:


> Yeah but unlike all other versions the 15th is here! I have the 3rd round on another disc but it won't copy :twisted:
> 
> Stick with it, trust me it's worth it.


It's fine don't worry, very enjoyable upload. :thumbsup Difficult to find good quality versions of these kind of fights which you and a select few others seem to have in abundance.


----------



## Yiddle

In the version I have the 14th round loses picture at times and I only have 1.58 of the 15th .


----------



## Flea Man

Yiddle said:


> In the version I have the 14th round loses picture at times and I only have 1.58 of the 15th .


I have that version (which has round 3) but this version has the last few rounds.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> I don't want to live!


Flea has uploaded Chang-Zapata 1.

Your faith in Ricardo Lopez will be tested.

Be strong, LR.

Be strong.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Flea has uploaded Chang-Zapata 1.
> 
> Your faith in Ricardo Lopez will be tested.
> 
> Be strong, LR.
> 
> Be strong.


Round 3 is missing but most have seen that already and were missing the final two rounds. I tried but failed, sorry gents.


----------



## jorodz

Lester1583 said:


> Flea has uploaded Chang-Zapata 1.
> 
> Your faith in Ricardo Lopez will be tested.
> 
> Be strong, LR.
> 
> Be strong.


ricardo lopez is easily one of the most picture perfect little guys of all time; who needs a stupid inside game


----------



## LittleRed

jorodz said:


> ricardo lopez is easily one of the most picture perfect little guys of all time; who needs a stupid inside game


Ali didn't need one. And Lopez is taller than Ali, theoretically.

Mustn't watch Chang...


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> Ali didn't need one. And Lopez is taller than Ali, theoretically.
> 
> Mustn't watch Chang...


good call, don't repeat my mistake


----------



## Lester1583

jorodz said:


> ricardo lopez is easily one of the most picture perfect little guys of all time


You're just clutching at straws, J.

Chang's unbelievable brilliance shook you to the core - it's clear for everyone to see.


----------



## jorodz

Lester1583 said:


> You're just clutching at straws, J.
> 
> Chang's unbelievable brilliance shook you to the core - it's clear for everyone to see.


:yep i think chang is all a gag by flea, who just wants to see how many people he can get interested in some obscure asian fighter


----------



## jorodz

ah fuck it, y'all musta forgot!!


----------



## jorodz

about to get high and watch a fight...any suggestions?


----------



## LittleRed

Alfredo Marcano vs Hiroshi Kobayashi


----------



## jorodz

Sorry @LittleRed, that'll be next. First up was...Chang Zapata 2!

Round 1:

hate zapatas awkward stance but chang's upper body movement is wicked. body work by chang is solid, zapata looks confused. chang looks sloppy coming in but he never gets tagged, wicked fast attack

Chang 10-9

Round 2:
zapata not able to use height advantage. CHANG! bulldozes zapata into the ropes and batters him. chang's best punch is a right hook thrown from orthodox...what the fuck? zapata sharp with counters and body attack but no answers for chang's ferocity how the hell is chang's defense so good?! constant moving but never wasted

Chang 10-9

what the fuck..alright round 3 starts odd. guys feeling each other out and chang ROCKS zapata with a right(again, a fucking right hook from orthodox)
chang pounds zapata the rest of the round...he's shitting all over zapata's massive height and reach advantage.
it's chang o'clock and the fight is stopped!!

Fucking hell Chang. You're amazing. Thankfully you never had the chance to lose to Ricardo Lopez and keep your mystique


----------



## jorodz

Marcano Kobayashi. I know nothing about either of these two.

Round 1:
Marcano is awkward as fuck but landing hard, hard punches. Kobayashi is game but just taking it. Marcano settles down and shows he has a fucking great jab to. Hard and thudding. Marcano landing very accurately, Kobayashi does not much. 
Marcano 10-9

Round 2:
Pace has slowed but Marcano still in charge. Jabs and right hands, following Kobayashi who is starting to throw counters. Marcano on the aggressive but Kobayashi timing Marcano. Counter by Kobayashi! Stuns Marcano and he livens up. Even round
10-10

Round 3:
Kobayashi and Marcano in some vicious exchanges here. Both landing their fair share but Kobayashi’s counters having a bit moreeffect. Marcano is hurt! Kobayashi follows and rest of the round is even
Kobayashi 10-9

Round 4:
Both guys sharp throughout the round but Kobayashi really breaks through in the last minute. Hurts Marcano repeatedly.

Kobayashi 10-9

Round 5:
Marcano coming on and taking Kobayashi to the ropes. Both throwing bombs, Marcano might have snuck by with this one due to aggression. 

Marcano 10-9

Round 6:
Good round for Marcano. Marcano DRILLING Kobayashi in the last minute. I thought he was done by round 4 but he came back hard and probably took this one.

Marcano 10-9

Round 7:
Marcano starts well again and Kobayashi isn’t throwing enough. He is looking for counters but not committing to them. Marcano walking Kobayashi but eating some leather around halfways through the round. Kobayashi hurts Marcano and takes the final third. Close, too close

10-10

Round 8:
Kobayashi jurts Marcano BAD bout 1 minute in. Marcano comes right back like a bastard. Vicious uppercut by Kobayashi! Kobayashi beating Marcano pillar to post now. Marcano throws cheap shot after the bell. Dick

Kobayashi 10-9

Round 9:
Kobayashi very sloppy to start but traps Marcano on the ropes. Does nothing with it. Brawl in the middle of the ring now, KOBAYASHI!! Kobayashi pounding him…
STOP IT REF STOP IT!! Standing 8 and then Kobayashi…what the hell?! Kobayashi tagged and down!
10-9 round Kobayashi(Kobayashi had it 10-8 on my card before knockdown)

Round 10:
WAR BITCHES! Marcano goes for the kill! What a right! Fight called for Marcano!!

86-87 Kobayashi up by one point at the time of stoppage


----------



## tommygun711

Scored Vitali vs Byrd for the first time today. huge size advantage, looks like david vs Goliath in there tbh. a real mechanical approach by klitschko. reminiscent of monzon, at times, the way he smothers Byrd and throws those awkward combinations. Byrd would've had a huge finish had the fight went on, he was actually walking Vitali down. This fight kind of proves to me that Ali would have clearly decisoned Vitali if they fought prime for prime, he would have made him look stupid.
Rounds (Byrd-Klitschko)
9-10
9-10
9-10
9-10
10-9
9-10
9-10
10-9
10-9


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> Scored Vitali vs Byrd for the first time today. huge size advantage, looks like david vs Goliath in there tbh. a real mechanical approach by klitschko. reminiscent of monzon, at times, the way he smothers Byrd and throws those awkward combinations. Byrd would've had a huge finish had the fight went on, he was actually walking Vitali down. This fight kind of proves to me that Ali would have clearly decisoned Vitali if they fought prime for prime, he would have made him look stupid.
> Rounds (Byrd-Klitschko)
> 9-10
> 9-10
> 9-10
> 9-10
> 10-9
> 9-10
> 9-10
> 10-9
> 10-9


think byrd could`ve won a decision or at least a draw?


----------



## LittleRed

Yeah its a good fight. Duran would turn kobayashi into sushi in his next fight.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> Yeah its a good fight. Duran would turn kobayashi into sushi in hits next fight.


i was wondering if that was the same kobayashi! fuck, that's one of my favourite duran fights. i like it better than the buchanan mauling


----------



## tommygun711

jorodz said:


> think byrd could`ve won a decision or at least a draw?


Probably not, there's no chance of Byrd knocking Vitali down or earning a 10-8 round so I find it hard to believe he could have done that. On my card it would have been a draw if he sweeped the next 3 rounds. It would have been crazy if he had stopped Vitali on his feet though


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> Probably not, there's no chance of Byrd knocking Vitali down or earning a 10-8 round so I find it hard to believe he could have done that. On my card it would have been a draw if he sweeped the next 3 rounds. It would have been crazy if he had stopped Vitali on his feet though


fuck, byrd would be in the hall of fame if he did that


----------



## zadfrak

The big thing with that fight is that it even took place. If Tyson-Douglas was a longshot, take a close look at how this fight ever came off. It'd be 500-1.

Any other set of managers or promoters or trainers kill this fight. What other guy is signing to fight Vitali back then on short notice? 28-0 with 28 ko's. The only guy that would is Chris Byrd. DKP isn't putting any of his guys in there. Other american heavies don't want to take their act on the road. That leaves the fight anyone anytime anywhere guy. And that's about a Haley's comet.

As for Klitschko, They'd trained for an old ancient Ruddock. Stylewise, Byrd--Razor is as wide as it gets. Polar opposites. A slick southpaw substitute, on short notice, would be accepted by whom?


----------



## Vysotsky

jorodz said:


> Sorry @LittleRed, that'll be next. First up was...Chang Zapata 2!
> 
> Round 1:
> 
> hate zapatas awkward stance but chang's upper body movement is wicked. body work by chang is solid, zapata looks confused. chang looks sloppy coming in but he never gets tagged, wicked fast attack
> 
> Chang 10-9
> 
> Round 2:
> zapata not able to use height advantage. CHANG! bulldozes zapata into the ropes and batters him. chang's best punch is a right hook thrown from orthodox...what the fuck? zapata sharp with counters and body attack but no answers for chang's ferocity how the hell is chang's defense so good?! constant moving but never wasted
> 
> Chang 10-9
> 
> what the fuck..alright round 3 starts odd. guys feeling each other out and chang ROCKS zapata with a right(again, a fucking right hook from orthodox)
> chang pounds zapata the rest of the round...*he's shitting all over zapata's massive height and reach advantage.
> it's chang o'clock and the fight is stopped!!
> *
> Fucking hell Chang. You're amazing. Thankfully you never had the chance to lose to Ricardo Lopez and keep your mystique


lol Enjoyed thoroughly.


----------



## Flea Man

Chang would muller Ricardo Lopez. 

Marcano Vs Kobayashi was a great fight. Marcel beat Marcano. Kobayashi is underrated for me he was a skilled fighter, and beat some decent fighters, and I feel he tanked Saijo in the super fight.


----------



## jorodz

Flea Man said:


> Chang would muller Ricardo Lopez.
> 
> Marcano Vs Kobayashi was a great fight. Marcel beat Marcano. Kobayashi is underrated for me he was a skilled fighter, and beat some decent fighters, and I feel he tanked Saijo in the super fight.


gonna start some marcel viewing soon, any suggestions?


----------



## LittleRed

Marcel-Arguello is mandatory viewing.

And I agree that Kobayashi was a skilled guy, he just didn't slip punches.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> *Marcel-Arguello is mandatory viewing.
> *
> And I agree that Kobayashi was a skilled guy, he just didn't slip punches.


sold


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Marcel-Arguello is mandatory viewing.
> 
> And I agree that Kobayashi was a skilled guy, he just didn't slip punches.


I was coming here to say just that, not only is it a great watch, as most of us on here are familiar with Arguello it's an easy way to get a grasp on how good Marcel was, even if it is his last fight.

Then Antonio Gomez I.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Broner - Malignaggi could have gone either way. I'd have to watch it strictly to judge it properly, I'm 60% in favour of Broner 115-113, but not too sure.

Malignaggi neutralised Broner's passive ass, especially in the first few rounds. 
Broner landed powerful punches but he didn't throw ENOUGH. 
Past prime Malignaggi did all he could do with his featherfists, just like how Gavin Rees did all he could do with his midget frame.

I will mentally register it as a draw for now. 24-2-1 Broner. 

Would get fucked by the Ghost.


----------



## Brownies

jorodz said:


> Fucking hell Chang. You're amazing. Thankfully you never had the chance to lose to Ricardo Lopez and keep your mystique


Chang's got no neck. Trying to hit a guy built like that on the button is hell. Man, I liked his feints and pressure.


----------



## Flea Man

Brownies said:


> Chang's got no neck. Trying to hit a guy built like that on the button is hell. Man, I liked his feints and pressure.


Yeah his feints were very impressive, moreso than the similarly skilled with feints Chan-Hee Park.

Chang's feints evoke fighters such as Duran, Pryor and Leonard IMO. Chang was a badass.


----------



## O59

jorodz said:


> gonna start some marcel viewing soon, any suggestions?


Marcel-Shibata.


----------



## Brownies

Flea Man said:


> Chang's feints evoke fighters such as Duran, Pryor and Leonard IMO. Chang was a badass.


Oh yeah because of their workrate and constant feinting, they look like possessed men.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Also saw:


Just watched Henry Hank vs Harold Johnson.

I have yet to see a fight in which Hank declared a winner.

Doesn't really matter though.

Hank was da beast.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Just watched Henry Hank vs Harold Johnson.
> 
> I have yet to see a fight in which Hank declared a winner.
> 
> Doesn't really matter though.
> 
> Hank was da beast.


Of the fights that exist so far of Hank the only one he doesnt lose is the fight with Johny Persol but he doesnt win it either it was declared a draw, maybe back then the judges leaned more towards the guy who had the most textbook style opposed to Hank's unorthodox but brilliant style, maybe they didnt understood the genius behind the beast that was Henry Hank.

Would love to see his second fight with Giardello(another one that he lost) that was the fight of the year in 67 but unfortunately it doesnt exist.

Have you seen his fight with Gene Armstrong? its a war :ibutt


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Of the fights that exist so far of Hank the only one he doesnt lose is the fight with Johny Persol but he doesnt win it either it was declared a draw


Footage of Hank beating Jimmy Elis and his draw against Jesse Smith exists too.



Bladerunner said:


> maybe back then the judges leaned more towards the guy who had the most textbook style opposed to Hank's unorthodox but brilliant style, maybe they didnt understood the genius behind the beast that was Henry Hank.


That's exactly what I was thinking.:yep

I scored both H.Johnson and Mina fights for Hank, by the way.

10-0, to be exact.



Bladerunner said:


> Have you seen his fight with Gene Armstrong? its a war :ibutt


Of course.

That's actually my favourite Hank fight.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Footage of Hank beating Jimmy Elis and his draw against Jesse Smith exists too.


Full fights?:ibutt

Got to get my hands on them, cant get enough of Hank :yep

I know theres also some footage of him against Charlie Green but i havent see it yet.

Theres also this small clip of one of his fights with Foster.






What a Badass.


----------



## Michael

Couple of good fights watched over the last few days. Watched Eder Jofre vs Fighting Harada 1 most recently. Two guys ive not seen much, but I thought it was a great from Harada, who's a very dynamic offensively. Cant help but feel watching this fight though,that's its a terrible matchup for Jofre both stylistically, a guy as quick as Harada and who brings non stop workrate and pressure will always give a slower, rangier fighter who needs to work in Jofre a lot of problems. In spite of this I thought it was fairly competitive, Harada started very fast and built up a fair old, also rocked Jofre with a big right hand IIRC, but Jofre eventually found some space and started to let some good shots, and nicked 4 or 5 solid rounds for himself, thought I didnt score it too closely. Great to watch was Harada, an obvious comparison but he reminds me of an orthodox Manny Pacquiao, only a smidgen less explosive, but better technically.

Also seen Antonio Esparragoza vs Octavio Quinones. Not to much to say about this one, Antonio took his time, came out jabbing, and as soon as hestarted letting that looping right hand of his go, the fight was over.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Full fights?:ibutt


I don't know:-(


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Ji-Won Kim would destroy Rigondeaux easily.


Dupas-Scott 4 is a quality action fight.
I liked it.

Have you seen Dupas-Gil Turner highlights, Flea? 
Outstanding footwork by Dupas.


----------



## Michael

lads whats the best sites for career sets, most reliable and complete do any of you know?


----------



## Bladerunner

Watched Patterson-Quarry I & II.

Is there a Patterson fight where he doesnt get dropped?

Shocking chin.


----------



## Michael

Bladerunner said:


> Watched Patterson-Quarry I & II.
> 
> Is there a Patterson fight where he doesnt get dropped?
> 
> Shocking chin.


Patterson vs Chuvalo is one major fight he stays vertical in anyways, unbelievable performance from Floyd, one of the best of his career


----------



## Flea Man

Machen didn't drop him! Did Ellis? Don't remember it, but maybe I'm just wrecked.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Why isn't he in the hall of fame? Gatti and Mark Johnson yes but Falucho is looking in...


Laciar - Antoine Montero really shows Laciar's versatility.

Instead of the typical argentinian peek-a-boo+awkward bombs style
Laciar spends majority of the fight in a classic out-boxer mode - fighting off the back foot, constantly moving, slipping punches, counterpunching.


----------



## LittleRed

How many rounds would he go with Khaosai Galaxy (he'd beat up the lesser twin, even with a little weight difference).

I'll check out that fight. He looked good making Zapata run for his life!


----------



## Bladerunner

Ken Buchanan-Ruben Navarro.

Ken was fucking brilliant.

Thats all.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> How many rounds would he go with Khaosai Galaxy


Out of respect for Laciar who is a true warrior, I'd say he goes 5 rounds.



LittleRed said:


> He looked good making Zapata run for his life!


Lora always tried to score this fight for Zapata but even he conceded that Laciar simply was too manly for the poor fragile Zapata to handle.



LittleRed said:


> I'll check out that fight.


Wouldn't say it's a great/mandatory to watch fight but it's an interesting fight if you're fan of Laciar.

And Montero was game as hell in that fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Ken was fucking brilliant.


Buchanan would have been a stylistic nightmare for Marquez.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Buchanan would have been a stylistic nightmare for Marquez.


No doubt about it and for Arguello too :yep


----------



## Flea Man

What are the fuck are _you two_ up to in here? Leave Khaokor out of your games. And know that Laciar would've battered Khaosai.

Laciar was the fucking man. Absolutely one of the best flyweights of his time despite never holding the lineal championship.

Do we think that Laciar will tidily bomb Chitalada for the duration or can Sot put his size on Laciar and outfight him? Laciar too smart for that IMO, and I don't think he'd allow Sot to put his jab on him consistently, he's he could nix but as he also showed he could play the archetypal short, stocky, defensively cute bobbing and weaving bomb slinging badass.

Merced Magri with the first punch of the fight and was robbed!

Smashed up Mathebula where human wrecking ball Tae-Shik Kim had failed!

Beat up Zapata before it was cool!

Laciar may be one of the few I'd comfortably pick to beat Chang. Then again, I'm flush with gear at the mo' maybe I'm just being too fantastical.


----------



## LittleRed

Is gear heroin, cause that's what we call it stateside. Or steroids. Flea on steroids would be a terrible thing to behold...

Anyway I think he (Laciar) might be the second best Argentine fighter. Even over Galindez and Locche.

Or have I gone too far...


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Chitalada


By the way, prime Chitalada looked excellent dancing and outboxing the plodding F.Castillo.
Kuwait?!

Another good upload, Flea.

Check this out:





Judging by Chitalada's legs, this exhibition took place somewhere in the late 80's early 90's, right?


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Or have I gone too far...


The better question, in my opinion, would be - who is better and more underrated - Laciar or Ahumada.


----------



## AlFrancis

LittleRed said:


> Is gear heroin, cause that's what we call it stateside. Or steroids. Flea on steroids would be a terrible thing too behold...
> 
> Anyway I think he (Laciar) might be the second best Argentine fighter. Even over Galindez and Locche.
> 
> Or have I gone too far...


How about Laciar-Perez or Accavallo?


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> The better question, in my opinion, would be - who is better and more underrated - Laciar or Ahumada.


Ahumada couldn't beat John Conteh. Laciar could. End argument.


AlFrancis said:


> How about Laciar-Perez or Accavallo?


I woulda loved to see him vs Perez if only to see how he dealt with being the bigger man. And I always forget about Perez- truly underrated. Got to go with a pure banger over the educated pressure of Falucho.

As for Accavallo, all I've seen is the first fight with Ebihara so I've no clue really.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Ahumada couldn't beat John Conteh. Laciar could. End argument.


Yeah, but Ahumada beat Galindez.

That's like beating 3 Laciars at once.

Think about it, LR.


----------



## LittleRed

:scaredas:


Lester1583 said:


> Yeah, but Ahumada beat Galindez.
> 
> That's like beating 3 Laciars at once.
> 
> Think about it, LR.


:suicide


----------



## AlFrancis

I remember Montero stopping Keith Wallace with a body shot in a bit of an upset really. Just looked on youtube to see if there was anything of Wallace, he was a lovely fighter to watch and the future was looking bright for him up until that loss.


----------



## Yiddle

Wallace was hyped a little wasn't he always looked pretty decent against British level opponents but against decent European level looked lacking a bit or am I being unfair


----------



## AlFrancis

Yiddle said:


> Wallace was hyped a little wasn't he always looked pretty decent against British level opponents but against decent European level looked lacking a bit or am I being unfair


Well at the time he looked good and he was even fighting up to featherweight. You might remember him beating Steve Muchoki in style and then he had a good win over Juan Diaz who had just ko'd Charlie Magri and only really got beat by the best. The young Frank Warren put that add in the boxing news challenging Magri which upset the Cartel, a bit of deja vu there. It was looking good for Wallace until that Montero fight who turned out a good fighter. I remember me dad saying watching it, a top fighter shouldn't be getting stopped on a body shot like that. Wallace was never really the same after that fight and I remember him getting stopped by body shots later, possibly the Billy Hardy fight. I think at the time he had a bit of a problem with the ale.


----------



## Yiddle

I remember seeing him live late on his career on a bill at the albert hall in 89 I think against a decent opponent type British boxer called marvin stone . wallace won I think by decision but he was clearly not going to get the big fights by that time lennox lewis was on the undercard gary Jacobs topped the bill


----------



## Flea Man

I have been trying to figure out when that Sot exhibition was meself my best bet is late 80s/early 90s.

Great body shots!


----------



## Jdempsey85

Robert quiroga vs kid akeem

What a battle.I scored it 114-114.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> its a war :ibutt


You just can't go wrong with these fighters.

F. Fernandez - Jose Gonzalez 1 is another good action fight.

Definitely deserves a look.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> You just can't go wrong with these fighters.
> 
> F. Fernandez - Jose Gonzalez 1 is another good action fight.
> 
> Definitely deserves a look.


I think i have seen that fight.

But my memory is a bit shit.

Will give it another look :yep


----------



## Michael

Watched a slick Panamanian Ismael Laguna take the title off the great Carlos Ortiz in their first fight. Great stuff. Thought Laguna was really impressive, he had everything that makes for a great stylist, reflexes, hand speed, timing, great lead left hooks and right hands and no little power. He basically dominated the majority of the fight, and was too quick, elusive and accurate for Ortiz. Couldnt find anymore than 5 rounds to give Ortiz in this 15 rounder. Was espedcially impressed with the way Laguna was able to hold his own and more when the round infighting took place. Shows us he was substance aswell as style.


----------



## O59

Luis Manuel Rodriguez vs. Yama Bahama II. Interesting bout, with LMR starting off jabbing and circling. Rodriguez was the consummate ring general, not too dissimilar from Buchanan in that regard; a stylistic comparison could surely be made.

His lateral movement is absolutely fucking superb. Makes Bahama miss shots by mere inches. Timing and a sense of distance at its finest. The combinations begun to flow more freely from the second round on, with Rodriguez finishing it all in the third stanza. Excellent fighter. His head movement whilst on the offensive is also exquisite. Seemed like Bahama couldn't lay a hand on him at times.


----------



## AlFrancis

Rare new upload, haven't even watched it myself yet. Evan Armstrong vs Jose Legra.


----------



## Flea Man

Wow!


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Wow!


I almost forgot how good Navarrete - Choi was.

Choi was a very good outside fighter.

Too bad he had a glass body.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Sammy angott vs slugger white

14,000 paid to see this clinch fest.1st time viewing angott,a very rough+tough customer indeed.He's like a minature tony galento,With angotts hands held that low im shocked he didnt get ko'd,im now in state of disbelief after checking angotts boxrec,fair play to the man.

I bet bernard hopkins has a sammy angott career set.


----------



## Flea Man

Jdempsey85 said:


> Sammy angott vs slugger white
> 
> 14,000 paid to see this clinch fest.1st time viewing angott,a very rough+tough customer indeed.He's like a minature tony galento,With angotts hands held that low im shocked he didnt get ko'd,im now in state of disbelief after checking angotts boxrec,fair play to the man.
> 
> I bet bernard hopkins has a sammy angott career set.


Probably the greatest fighter that's the worst to watch. Going on what we have of him anyway.


----------



## tommygun711

Watching him against Ruben Castillo, this is just a great example of Arguello being extremely conservative and not wasting his energy. Sometimes you've got to admire activity but if it's not effective (see paulie malignaggi) then there's no point imo. 

Considering how "1 dimensional" Arguello is, he had some goddamn solid fundamentals. One of the most sound, textbook punchers I have ever seen next to Joe Louis. His perfect technique had to be part of the reason he was such a devastating puncher.


----------



## Bladerunner

Hugo Corro- Rodrigo Valdez II

First time watching the much maligned Corro and i gotta say that after reading what others said about him with the Ring Mag going as far as saying he was the worst middleweight champion ever, i was expecting a much worse fighter than the one i saw here. Valdez barely laid a glove on him and got completely dominated(i had Valdez losing every round) by Corro who i thought looked pretty decent , might even go as far as saying he looked good.

Maybe this was a case of Valdez being on his last legs cause i have never seen him look this bad not even against the great Carlos Monzon to whom he lost twice, maybe this was a combination of Valdez being way past it and Corro not being as bad as some people describe him, either way he sure looked better than i was expecting. It was only one fight though its hard to gauge a fighter's value based on only one fight, I will need to see more of him to have a better idea and judge him better as a fighter.


----------



## Bill Jincock

I'n no supporter of him, but i'd say it was more Corro's overly-safety first mentality and the way it manifested in losing his title to antuofermo so timidly that has earned him his reputation.He's no worse than fighters like Vilomar Fernandez, Edwin Viruet, Serrano etc tricky and tough to look good against, especially if he has a home crowd behind him.

That fight at the time kind of solidified him as one of the worst champs ever at 160.He's better than numerous fighters that held 160 belts since the early 90s though...Joppy, Holmes, Castro, Quincy Taylor, Sturm, Takehara, Abraham and others...

He's no worse than pavlik, taylor and Martinez imo.Those guys have all had performances as bad or worse than Corro's against Vito.I'd bet on him against Pavlik for sure, and probably the other two as well.


----------



## tommygun711

watching Duran vs Barkley, such a fantastic fight all around. This is one of those fights that truly define Duran's P4P greatness. Not only does Duran have the courage to stand toe to toe with Barkley and trade, he takes Barkley's shots extremely well throughout the entire fight. It seems like Duran is the more effective, eye catching puncher even though Barkley is obviously the harder puncher. It's still fucking amazing that someone as small as Duran could move up in weight like that and still be great! To a lesser extent it reminds me of how Toney was trading punches with Sam Peter a few years ago.


----------



## Michael

tommygun711 said:


> watching Duran vs Barkley, such a fantastic fight all around. This is one of those fights that truly define Duran's P4P greatness. Not only does Duran have the courage to stand toe to toe with Barkley and trade, he takes Barkley's shots extremely well throughout the entire fight. It seems like Duran is the more effective, eye catching puncher even though Barkley is obviously the harder puncher. It's still fucking amazing that someone as small as Duran could move up in weight like that and still be great! To a lesser extent it reminds me of how Toney was trading punches with Sam Peter a few years ago.


That was a fantastic performance by Duran, they always say the great fighters usually have on last great fight left in them. Barkley's performance gets underrated to her mind, he showed boxing skills, speed and an all round ability that you rarely see from him.


----------



## O59

tommygun711 said:


> watching Duran vs Barkley, such a fantastic fight all around. This is one of those fights that truly define Duran's P4P greatness. Not only does Duran have the courage to stand toe to toe with Barkley and trade, he takes Barkley's shots extremely well throughout the entire fight. It seems like Duran is the more effective, eye catching puncher even though Barkley is obviously the harder puncher. It's still fucking amazing that someone as small as Duran could move up in weight like that and still be great! To a lesser extent it reminds me of how Toney was trading punches with Sam Peter a few years ago.


Duran-Barkley is absolutely fantastic. Scored it for Duran rather closely IIRC.


----------



## Jdempsey85

David price vs Tony thompson

Very poor performance from price,the jab was non existent,poor defence,poor everything really,looked like he done 20 rounds after 6 minutes!

I recommend everyone to check out The greatest post fight interview ever by tony thompson.


----------



## Phantom

Oscar Bonavena-Karl Mildenberger


----------



## Lester1583

Sakurai's foot speed made Lionel Rose look like Sam Peter.


Who was the king of controversial decisions in the 60's - Rose, Pone or Griffith?


----------



## Flea Man

Pone.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Griffith probably got the most linecalls.


----------



## Flea Man

I'm not sure. I was going on %. All of Pone's wins against top shelf opposition have a degree of controversy about them, Perez I, Harada II, Ebihara II, although I personally don't agree with the fuss over the former, looked like Pone was in there all the way to me from what we have.


----------



## Bill Jincock

True enough, Pone's biggest wins are mostly shady as fuck.

Griffith losing stuff like the Rodriguez trilogy and the Tiger fight could well have as big an effect on his standing if the results went the other way though.


----------



## O59

Very good technical breakdown on George Benton.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> True enough, Pone's biggest wins are mostly shady as fuck.
> 
> Griffith losing stuff like the Rodriguez trilogy and the Tiger fight could well have as big an effect on his standing if the results went the other way though.


No doubt.


----------



## tommygun711

Mike McCallum vs Luigi Minchillo, a complete fucking master class from Michael from start to finish. Beautiful movement, combinations and also a big showing of durability from Minchillo. Duran, Hearns and McCallum ALL hit Minchillo with some wicked shots and barely put a dent on him.


----------



## O59

tommygun711 said:


> Mike McCallum vs Luigi Minchillo, a complete fucking master class from Michael from start to finish. Beautiful movement, combinations and also a big showing of durability from Minchillo. Duran, Hearns and McCallum ALL hit Minchillo with some wicked shots and barely put a dent on him.


Minchillo gets a bit underrated, very solid contender.


----------



## tommygun711

O59 said:


> Minchillo gets a bit underrated, very solid contender.


yeah, good overall record too.. For the most part, only lost to the very elite. He never really beat anyone notable though.


----------



## AlFrancis

tommygun711 said:


> yeah, good overall record too.. For the most part, only lost to the very elite. He never really beat anyone notable though.


He did beat Maurice Hope.


----------



## tommygun711

AlFrancis said:


> He did beat Maurice Hope.


Didn't know that. Still, Hope was nothing special either


----------



## Bill Jincock

Never beating anyone special didn't stop Winky Wright being seen in a highly positive light at 154, mind you.:yep

Minchillo was a slightly lesser, more predictable Vito, but just never got the chance to feast on leftovers for too long with fighters like McCallum and Hearns about.


----------



## AlFrancis

Maurice Hope actually stopped Antuofermo.


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> yeah, good overall record too.. For the most part, only lost to the very elite. He never really beat anyone notable though.


He beat Marijan Benes!!!


----------



## Jdempsey85

jimmy flood vs artie diamond

Great Violent fight jaw dropping stuff


----------



## Flea Man

Yeah that's a good one. It's no Yoshiaki Numata Vs Raul Rojas though :yep


----------



## Jdempsey85

cracker now thats what i call a uppercut:deal


----------



## Lester1583

Chong-Pal Park - In Chul Baek is a brutal war of epic proportions.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Chong-Pal Park - In Chul Baek is a brutal war of epic proportions.


Savagery. Baek was the harder man.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Laciar - Antoine Montero really shows Laciar's versatility.
> 
> Instead of the typical argentinian peek-a-boo+awkward bombs style
> Laciar spends majority of the fight in a classic out-boxer mode - fighting off the back foot, constantly moving, slipping punches, counterpunching.


Santos 'Sweet Pea' Laciar! Why are the Roman fights broken?


----------



## LittleRed

I guess its just me that thinks it's ironic that one of the most underrated bodypunchers of his era (and long lost Napoles twin) Rodolfo Gonzalez list his belt to a guy named guts? Or am I misusing irony?


----------



## O59

Watched Gomez-Pintor for the first time today. Love that leaping jab Gomez did following the right hand, caught Pintor flush consistently. Ninth round was spectacular with Gomez leathering Pintor on the ropes, and Lupe fighting back. :ibutt


----------



## LittleRed

But was it the best 122 lb. fight of all time?


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Will give it another look :yep


Fernandez was robbed against Fullmer:ibutt


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Fernandez was robbed against Fullmer:ibutt


Havent seen that fight in a long time.

Cant really remember much of it but i'll take your word for it.

Mostly the only things i remember from that fight is that its in color and in great condition for and old fight cant really remember anything else, my memory is shit:yep

I have to catch up with a lot of fights i have and that i havent seen them yet.

After i get done with it i'll go on a Floro Binge :bbb


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Cant really remember much of it but i'll take your word for it.


I was just :shitstir:smile

It's a close fight that could have gone either way.

Fullmer injured his hand in the 14-th round and and took some serious beating - some might even score the last rounds as 10-8 rounds.

Fullmer did well with his usual rough tactics and awkward style, 
but Floro surprised me a bit with his stamina and will to win - for some reason I always considered him a powerpunching front-runner, kinda like a slightly more durable version of Eugene Hart.


----------



## Bladerunner

LittleRed said:


> But was it the best 122 lb. fight of all time?


Not for me.

The best 122 lb fight of all time and the best fight ever IMO is Marco Antonio Barrera-Erik Morales I.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Chong-Pal Park - In Chul Baek is a brutal war of epic proportions.


Just saw it today and i have to say i was a bit disappointed.

From all the raving reviews it has got from different posters i was expecting a great give and take fight and great two way action but what i saw was Baek giving Park a beating with Park showing some epic heart but without never really bothering Baek. Will probably watch it again soon cause sometimes a fight doesnt look as good when you watch it for the first time but after watching it again you notice more things and come to appreciate it more, that happened to me with Roberto Duran-Leonard I fight and maybe this is one of those fights that get better after more views.

Anyway Gotta love the koreans though.

I have yet to see a korean fighter that inst a fucking badass.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> I have yet to see a korean fighter that inst a fucking badass.





LittleRed said:


> But was it the best 122 lb. fight of all time?


Only for those who have never witnessed the legendary Ji-Won Kim's fists of lightning destroying Bobby Berna and Rudy Casicas.


----------



## Ivan Drago

Gatti vs Manfredy.

Gatti's body work in round 4 is vicious and Manfredy is a badass for taking some of the shots he took without even flinching.

A great fight, standard Gatti, just a shame it had to end the way it did being stopped on cuts with Gatti's face busted up, standard Gatti.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Only for those who have never witnessed the legendary Ji-Won Kim's fists of lightning destroying Bobby Berna and Rudy Casicas.


The violinist?


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> The violinist?


Among many things.

A truly complete fighter who could do it all.


----------



## Flea Man

Bladerunner said:


> Just saw it today and i have to say i was a bit disappointed.
> 
> From all the raving reviews it has got from different posters i was expecting a great give and take fight and great two way action but what i saw was Baek giving Park a beating with Park showing some epic heart but without never really bothering Baek. Will probably watch it again soon cause sometimes a fight doesnt look as good when you watch it for the first time but after watching it again you notice more things and come to appreciate it more, that happened to me with Roberto Duran-Leonard I fight and maybe this is one of those fights that get better after more views.
> 
> Anyway Gotta love the koreans though.
> 
> I have yet to see a korean fighter that inst a fucking badass.


That's why Ayub Kalule KO2 Ho-Joo is probably the greatest knockout ever. @Lester1583 agrees


----------



## Michael

Flea Man said:


> That's why Ayub Kalule KO2 Ho-Joo is probably the greatest knockout ever. @Lester1583 agrees


Sweet counter left hand alright, Kalule was a very good counter puncher when he wanted to be.


----------



## Michael

Benn watching a lot of Bob Foster fights recently, and as good as he looked, god he fought so many poor opponents. Makes me surprised as to why he's so far up on people's ATG 175 pounder lists, its got to be on the eye test I suppose, because a prime Foster was damn good.


----------



## O59

Flea Man said:


> That's why Ayub Kalule KO2 Ho-Joo is probably the greatest knockout ever. @Lester1583 agrees


:deal


----------



## tommygun711

Watched Duran dismantle Moore, such a fantastic win on every level. Took on a young, hungry lion and took him out in impressive fashion. The way Duran rolls with punches is just phenomenal.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> That's why Ayub Kalule KO2 Ho-Joo is probably the greatest knockout ever.


Truer words have never been spoken.

And Kalule-Villa is the greatest technical fight of all time.

It's so sophisticated it's almost gay.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Truer words have never been spoken.
> 
> And Kalule-Villa is the greatest technical fight of all time.
> 
> It's so sophisticated it's almost gay.


Almost?


----------



## salsanchezfan

The other day I watched both Jeff Chandler-Oscar Muniz fights. The first Muniz took by split decision and I thought it was well-deserved, scoring it even through the first eight, and then Muniz out-scrapping Chandler down the stretch. 

Muniz fought a very clever, ambushing-type fight. He'd step to Chandler's left and plant a right hand on the side of his head time and again, falling inside to smother the taller Philadelphian with crisp shots and the occasional forehead. Chandler of course spent roughly three and a half rounds of real time complaining about these tactics.

The second fight showed a slimmer, faster Chandler (the first fight was a 122-pound over the weight bout) get off to a better start, but the issue of whom was going to get a true upper hand was still up for grabs when the fight ended due to cuts on Muniz's face.

I got the impression watching these that it was a matter of the smaller Muniz trying to hold the tide back with a spoon, and that as soon as Chandler decided to kick it into high gear, he'd start putting some distance between himself and the underdog Californian. He just wasn't able to, due to Muniz's pesky mosquito style. Chandler fans have to be left cold with both these efforts.


----------



## The Wanderer

Rewatched Mayweather-De La Hoya today. I gave it what is probably the sterotypical score of 8-4, with the two trading rounds through the first 8, and then Mayweather kicking it into another gear for rounds 9-12 and Oscar, at that stage of his career, couldn't even hope to keep up.

I do want to say that the rounds I gave Oscar are more based on activity than being effective, since the vast majority of his punches were rather ineffective. However in those rounds either Oscar had it going a little better (or was making better use of tools like his jab) and/or Mayweather was not being effective or landing with his own punches. I also couldn't help but feel a little sorry for Oscar at times, because the fight was such an uphill battle for him even through the early and mid rounds, where Mayweather was biding his time and not giving it his all. Once Mayweather started really bearing down, Oscar didn't have anything to answer with.


----------



## Bladerunner

Emile Griffith-Jose Stable.

Close fight had Griffith ahead 7-6 with two rounds missing and a lot of hard to score rounds, It was an ugly fight at times with lots of clinching, Stable showed some great head movement and the few times they fought on the inside Stable came out on top IMO specially due to his constant work to the body, Griffith landed the more hurtful blows and did better when he boxed from a distance, without the two missing rounds its hard to know(I'm assuming they were Stable's rounds cause i'm biased :yep) but this looked like another one of Griffith's controversial decisions.

They talked with Carlos Ortiz,Dick Tiger and Archie Moore between rounds but i have this shit on safe mode and therefor couldnt hear a word they said.


----------



## Ivan Drago

James J. Braddock-Max Baer

One of the all time great stories in boxing and a great upset win for Braddock.

He negated Baers big overhand right all night with effective jabbing and smothered Baer on the inside. Baer was ineffective in his punching and pawed with the left trying to set up the right without ever establishing a jab.

A real old school fight and the guy with the greater will came out on top as Max Baer had no sense of urgency and only fought in short bursts throughout whereas Braddock established his own pace on the fight and kept it going for 15 rounds.

A fascinating piece of boxing history.


----------



## Luf

I fancy watching the Griffith v LMR title fights. I'll post my cards on here.


----------



## GPater

@Luf they are all good fights apart from the last one that is slightly scrappy. LMR wins them all for me though, with only the first being a each way pick 'em.

I watched Tony Lopez vs Freddie Pendleton ysterday, a very entertaining little scrap. Its my first look at Lopez and he looks a very nice solid fighter to watch.


----------



## Luf

I decided I'd just have a fulll on Griffith marathon.

Watched the rematch with paret.

Scored it 9-6 for Griffith and I honestly can't see 8 rounds you could score for paret. I don't like to call robbery on a fight so close but if I can't find the rounds I have to go with my gut.

Paret started off well but Griffith was too strong I felt. He controlled the inside exchanges with some punishing hooks and he did a decent job of keeping down the number of shots he took in the pocket.

Shouldn't have lost his belt this night. I know his style wasn't popular and he was a bit rough and tumble but so many times he was landing right hook-left hook combinations and paret was just eating them.

Anyone got a scorecard favouring paret? I gave him 1,2,5,7,8,9. Gave Griffith 3,4,6,10,11,12,13,14

Just realised I can't find who I have the 15th for mustn't have written that down and I can't remember off top of my head. Even if it was a paret round that's still only 8-7 at best.


----------



## GPater

Dont think I have that full fight @Luf I basically resored all Griffiths close fights on a thread on ESB. I think he genuinly deserved most decisions he got IIRC.

Also dont know whre to put this, but on a facebook group people wre talking about greatest fighters, I bring up Harry Greb and its been completely ignored. Fucking travesty. They are debating that Ali is the greatest fighter ever and done things no other fighters could. I was a way to write Greb could beat Ali, but thought thats just trolling


----------



## Luf

GPater said:


> Dont think I have that full fight @Luf I basically resored all Griffiths close fights on a thread on ESB. I think he genuinly deserved most decisions he got IIRC.
> 
> Also dont know whre to put this, but on a facebook group people wre talking about greatest fighters, I bring up Harry Greb and its been completely ignored. Fucking travesty. They are debating that Ali is the greatest fighter ever and done things no other fighters could. I was a way to write Greb could beat Ali, but thought thats just trolling


Flea has put up the full paret rematch.

I hate boxing being discussed on Facebook. Stupiditty gets on my tits. Things like "haye when you gonna man up and call out Mayweather" dicks.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Close fight had Griffith ahead 7-6 with two rounds missing and a lot of hard to score rounds.


The fight definitely was closer than Mercante's scorecard (11-4) would suggest.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> The fight definitely was closer than Mercante's scorecard (11-4) would suggest.


11-4 is just ridiculous.:fire

The guy who had it 8-6 probably got it right.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Only for those who have never witnessed the legendary Ji-Won Kim's fists of lightning destroying Bobby Berna


Just saw that today .

Kim gets dropped, gets up and destroys Berna with one punch.

Another one to add to the long list of korean badasses.:yep


----------



## tommygun711

Watched Gomez vs Lockridge, I didn't score it but it seems blatantly clear to me that Lockridge won that fight. Bullshit decision, borderline robbery imo. Rocky did give up the last few rounds but he dominated the 80% of the fight.


----------



## LittleRed

But did you think it was a good fight?


----------



## tommygun711

LittleRed said:


> But did you think it was a good fight?


Yeah very entertaining, doesn't take away from the fact that Lockridge clearly won:huh


----------



## salsanchezfan

Awful decision, but that's what you get when you go to Puerto Rico and expect a decision over a local. Won't happen.

I remember one guy on ESB years ago who was from Puerto Rico and he tried to defend the decision, telling everyone on the thread "You had to be there; you should have heard the crowd." As if that was a salient thing to score a fight by.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Joe calzaghe vs Roy jones

2 atg face off in very entertaining fight for 7 rounds,soon as roy got sliced it was all over.Cant believe how fast roy was at 39 he was extremely dangerous and not as shot to shit as some people say,that uppercut he caught joe with in round 6 would have ko'd most humans.Great Fight


----------



## Ivan Drago

Pacquiao vs Larios 

Great performance from Manny might be the best I've ever seen him use the left hand lead he just couldn't miss with it. (Maybe in the DeLa Hoya fight)


----------



## Bladerunner

tommygun711 said:


> Watched Gomez vs Lockridge, I didn't score it but it seems blatantly clear to me that Lockridge won that fight. Bullshit decision, borderline robbery imo. Rocky did give up the last few rounds but he dominated the 80% of the fight.


Underrated fight IMO.

And Yes Lockridge was robbed.


----------



## Bladerunner

Ivan Drago said:


> Pacquiao vs Larios
> 
> Great performance from Manny might be the best I've ever seen him use the left hand lead he just couldn't miss with it. (Maybe in the DeLa Hoya fight)


Dominant performance from Pacquiao that one apart from one instance where Larios caught him on the ropes and hurt him, it was all Manny Pacquiao in that fight. Larios was past his best though and was climbing two weight classes.


----------



## Ivan Drago

Bladerunner said:


> Dominant performance from Pacquiao that one apart from one instance where Larios caught him on the ropes and hurt him, it was all Manny Pacquiao in that fight. Larios was past his best though and was climbing two weight classes.


Yep, Larios wasn't that bad though he had a few moments early on but he was just outclassed and outgunned and got worn down over the fight.


----------



## Luf

Watched Griffith v Rodriguez 1&2

The first was dead even in my eyes. So many close rounds. Anything from 6-4 to either fighter is fine by me. Wouldn't call it a robbery under any circumstance. It's great though how two prospects can meet at such an early age and both go on to become great great bread waging a rivalry as intense as these two did.

The second one was quite a clear victory for Rodriguez. Really underlined his abilities here and definitely deserved the decision. If Griffith wasn't the defending champ I wouldn't have thought it would have warranted a rematch.

Gonna watch 3&4, plus his fights with Gonzalez, Benvenuti and Tiger.


----------



## Raging B(_)LL

Carlos Palomino TKO12 John Stracey

This was Palomino`s fight all the way, Stracey just didn`t seem in the fight at any point and looked flat throughout. His flurrys were few and far between and largely ineffective, and Palomino always came right back swinging with both fists to take the play away from him convincingly. The finish in the 12th was a result of a booming left hook to the liver followed up by a right cross, Stracey got up but never fully recovered from the body punch that floored him and was dropped once again before being stopped on his feet wincing from pain. All in all this was a solid performance by Palomino but Stracey sure helped make him look good by how poorly he fought, I don`t think you could give him more than 2 rounds in this fight it was so one-sided.


Sugar Ray Seales W10 John LoCicero

This was an entertaining albeit somewhat one-sided, LoCicero had his moments in the first 5 rounds and took a couple of them in my opinion but overall Seales was getting the better of the exchanges and landing the more telling blows. LoCicero slowed down noticeably by the 8th round and from then onwards it was all Seales as he did quite a paintjob both on the inside and outside on a tired LoCicero. 

To be fair though LoCicero probably had an injured shoulder as his use of the right arm was minimal starting in the 7th until the end and the commentators made mention of that fact as well, but Seales was a class above as a fighter and it showed so injury or not it wouldn`t have made a difference in the outcome I`m sure. I`d have scored this fight as a 7-3 type of decision for Seales, it was a solid and entertaining performance by him I must say.


Jesse Burnett D10 John Conteh

Conteh got a gift in this fight there is no doubt about it, however if it weren`t for the two knockdowns he suffered he may well have won the fight even though he looked a like shit to put it midly by simply outworking Burnett which he did in almost every round. Now a lot of this work wasn`t that effective but at least he was throwing punches and doing something whereas Burnett who just so happens to be of the laziest fighters I have ever seen in the ring did his usual thing which was not much of anything at all.

He did win the first two rounds clearly though by flooring Conteh at the bell to end the first with a high left hook on the forehead that completely short circuited Conteh`s legs and had him in big trouble, had there been 20-30 more seconds left in the round he wouldn`t have survived it he was that out of it imo. Burnett came out firing in the second and buckled Conteh`s knees again but couldn`t put him away, and then gave up trying after the first minute thus allowing Conteh to get back in the fight somewhat over the next several rounds.

And then going into the 8th just when it looked like John might pull it out of the bag after putting together two rounds in a row and seemingly in control he gets floored heavily early in the 8th courtesy of an overhand right followed up by a left hook to the body that has him in trouble again although he manages to hold on and survive the round. The last two rounds belonged to Burnett and in my eyes having clearly won at least 4 rounds + the two knockdowns he should have won this fight by referee Harry Gibbs gave called it a draw and neither I or the crowd liked the call to say the least, I woulda had it roughly 5-5 or 6-4 in rounds had I scored it.


Jerry Martin W10 James Scott

Martin really hit the lightheavyweight scene with a bang in this performance against a tough tough contender in Scott, dropping him once in the first and again in the second round with overhand rights to the chin. The first right hand that dropped him had Scott in bigger trouble than at any other time I saw him in the ring and it would have stopped a lesser conditioned fighter, but Scott got back up and survived the round and did the same in the second after getting dropped heavily again midway through the round.

He did come back with a strong effort in the 3rd and fought on even terms for the next 3 rounds against Martin landing some good solid blows and even managing to bully Martin into the ropes at times culminating that comeback with a solid round 7 in which he briefly stunned Bull Martin with a right hand of his own, but then in the 8th Martin landed yet another overhand right on Scott early in the round as he was throwing his own that landed with a crash on his face wobbling him badly and from then onwards it was Martin`s fight all the way. I had it in my head 7-3 for Martin scorewise in a hard fought and entertaining bout, Scott just couldn`t cope with the strength and infighting of Martin in this fight and got worn down slowly.


----------



## Michael

Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar. My first time watching both men, who both have very contrasting styles. Winstone is the very slick technician, can time and counter very well and can pull some very nice defensive moves and Saldivar is your stereotypical Mexican slugger extremely strong tough and relentless, with a very good left hand and body attack. Was a reasonably competitive fight, but as it wore on the little Mexican started to take further control, landing his left almost at will and beating up Winstone down the stretch , who received some very bad cuts along the fight.


----------



## LittleRed

All three fights are worth watching.


----------



## tommygun711

Watched Holmes vs Williams, to me it is a clear victory for Williams.. Holmes likes to bitch about how underrated he is and how he got robbed in the Spinks' fights (he lost both imo) yet Holmes got 2 clear gifts in his career. Holmes lost to Williams and he lost to Witherspoon.


----------



## Luf

The spoon and Williams fights were very close and could easily have gone the other way. I wouldn't call them robberies though, for me a robbery is when you can't perceive the man winning 7 of the rounds (or 8 in a 15 round fight). For me these fights had so many close rounds that labelling them robberies is harsh. Labelling Holmes fortunate to take both decisions is a more apt description for me.

He was fortunate and could easily have lost his title in both fights.


----------



## tommygun711

And he should have lost both @Luf , theres no way he convincingly beat both men. It's just funny how he complains about Spinks beating him, when Spinks won both times IMO. Both Spinks' fights were close but it doesn't matter Spinks won according to my card. Holmes should be grateful he didn't lose his title when he did.


----------



## LittleRed

You don't have to win convincingly.


----------



## Luf

tommygun711 said:


> And he should have lost both @Luf , theres no way he convincingly beat both men. It's just funny how he complains about Spinks beating him, when Spinks won both times IMO. Both Spinks' fights were close but it doesn't matter Spinks won according to my card. Holmes should be grateful he didn't lose his title when he did.


I agree totally. He was lucky that in two 50/50 fights he retained on both ocassions.

Fortunate yes, robbery no.


----------



## tommygun711

Luf said:


> I agree totally. He was lucky that in two 50/50 fights he retained on both ocassions.
> 
> Fortunate yes, robbery no.


I say the Williams fight is a robbery. Holmes had a late fight rally but it wasn't enough to win the fight. Williams won most of the rounds up to that point. Something like 9-6 in favor of Williams which is pretty decisive.


----------



## Luf

tommygun711 said:


> I say the Williams fight is a robbery. Holmes had a late fight rally but it wasn't enough to win the fight. Williams won most of the rounds up to that point. Something like 9-6 in favor of Williams which is pretty decisive.


I had both fights 8-7 to Larry.

The way I see it now, its isn't so much my score that matters is the score I can accept that does. In fights with close rounds you have to be willing to concede a swing in scores.

Like Pac v Jmm 3. I scored it 8-4 to Juan but could see enough rounds that 7-5 Pac doesn't seem a robbery to me.

I'm much more flexible with scoring these days.


----------



## jonnytightlips

Hearns-Duran.

Hearns just battered him from to start to finish and what a fuckin finish it was. Hearns was simply a fuckin beast and I'd say there is alot of truth in the story that Duran was intimidated by him.


----------



## Bladerunner

John John Molina-Emanuel Augustus.

Very Good fight between two underrated fighters(specially Molina) as far as exciting fighters go, a must watch fight to those who have not seen it yet.


----------



## Luf

Augustus always delivered. Great blend of skill and action.


----------



## Bladerunner

Molina Too, for some reason i used to think Molina was a dirty boring fighter but as i started watching his fights i couldnt be more wrong about him being boring, throws lots of punches, never shies away from an exchange and brings it almost everytime, his trilogy with Tony "The Tiger" Lopez another exciting fighter from the late 80's to mid 90's is a great underrated trilogy.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> exciting


El Nica is fighting tomorrow:ibutt


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Molina


Despite fighting above his best weight John John gave a young Oscar a pretty tough fight.

If I remember correctly Lederman even scored it for Molina.


----------



## Lester1583

Matthysse pro debut:


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> trilogy with Tony "The Tiger" Lopez another exciting fighter from the late 80's to mid 90's is a great underrated trilogy.


Yup, a very good action-packed trilogy.

The third fight was especially good, in my opinion.

The first fight was slightly controversial.

Talent-wise Tony was nothing special but he's a classic blood and guts fighter - easy to cheer for.


----------



## Lester1583

The Villa fight is one of Duran's most underrated performances.

Duran at his most reserved and a rare opportunity to see a young Duran almost in a chess-match.

Excellent counterpunching display.

Funny second knockdown.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> The Villa fight is one of Duran's most underrated performances.
> 
> Duran at his most reserved and a rare opportunity to see a young Duran almost in a chess-match.
> 
> Excellent counterpunching display.
> 
> Funny second knockdown.


I've only seen the end. Didn't villa do better against some other boxers?


----------



## Ivan Drago

Whitaker-Mayweather

For such a one sided bout it was a great fight, Pernell beat him on the inside and he beat him on the outside but Roger was always there and manged to tag Whitaker enough that he showed he could make a fight of it and in the 9th round he had his best round of the fight getting to Whitaker consistently and knocking him down but it was his last hurrah as Sweet Pea got back up and saw out the fight in style.

The ref sucked though ignoring Whitaker hitting after the bell and repeated low blows as well as Mayweather hitting while Whitaker was down, he deserved that left hook that Pernell planted on him.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Didn't villa do better against some other boxers?


I haven't seen the Benitez fight but I've heard that it was closer than the scorecards would indicate.

Kalule, of course, brutally featherfisted Villa into submission.


----------



## tommygun711

Ivan Drago said:


> Whitaker-Mayweather
> 
> For such a one sided bout it was a great fight, Pernell beat him on the inside and he beat him on the outside but Roger was always there and manged to tag Whitaker enough that he showed he could make a fight of it and in the 9th round he had his best round of the fight getting to Whitaker consistently and knocking him down but it was his last hurrah as Sweet Pea got back up and saw out the fight in style.
> 
> The ref sucked though ignoring Whitaker hitting after the bell and repeated low blows as well as Mayweather hitting while Whitaker was down, he deserved that left hook that Pernell planted on him.


If nothing else, the ref has a helluva chin, taking Whitaker's best shot.


----------



## Luf

Lara v Molina

Had it a dead even draw. Gave Lara 4, 5, 6, 8 and 9. Shame it wasn't 12 rounds.


----------



## steviebruno

Caught Marlon Starling vs. Mark Breland ll today. Breland looked dead tired halfway through, yet managed to fight his way to a draw. Pure class. I thought Starling won, though.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Terry Norris v Maurice Blocker

Devastating from Norris.What the hell was panama lewis doing in blockers corner?


----------



## Luf

Marquez v Norwood.

I used to be quite arrogant in my scoring, these days I try to do two things. I'll score a fight on the night or upon first viewing to see how I would give it. Then I watch it again seeing which rounds I can see being given to the winner. Even if I disagree with myself I would go with the judges decision. If I can't give enough rounds to the winner I am happy calling it a robbery. For that reason I can agree with he decision between Jmm and Pac third time out, but not the decision between Jmm and John. The first I'd call an either way fight, the second I'd call a robbery and ask anyone to justify 6 John rounds.

First time I watched Marquez v Norwood I had it 8-4 JMM. Watched it again today to see if I could find 7 rounds for Norwood. I found the same 4: 2, 6, 7, 11. No other rounds I could conceive given Norwood. In the 8th JMM scored a knockdown that wasn't given but I believe that is enough to win a round,for those that disagree maybe he can have that as well.

At the very best it's 7-5 to Marquez and 114-112 on points.

Norwood fought a slippery fight reliant on left counters. The issue was Marquez was able to consistently land the right cross himself and whilst it didn't look as spectacular as Norwood's it made a mockery of Norwood's gameplan. He threw so little despite being hit fairly often. You could say Freddie was better with his shot selection but I would vehemently disagree with anyone saying he landed more clean effective punches. Marquez was the ring general, he landed more and his aggression was effective.

This fight is one I deem a robbery.


----------



## Michael

Luf said:


> Marquez v Norwood.
> 
> I used to be quite arrogant in my scoring, these days I try to do two things. I'll score a fight on the night or upon first viewing to see how I would give it. Then I watch it again seeing which rounds I can see being given to the winner. Even if I disagree with myself I would go with the judges decision. If I can't give enough rounds to the winner I am happy calling it a robbery. For that reason I can agree with he decision between Jmm and Pac third time out, but not the decision between Jmm and John. The first I'd call an either way fight, the second I'd call a robbery and ask anyone to justify 6 John rounds.
> 
> First time I watched Marquez v Norwood I had it 8-4 JMM. Watched it again today to see if I could find 7 rounds for Norwood. I found the same 4: 2, 6, 7, 11. No other rounds I could conceive given Norwood. In the 8th JMM scored a knockdown that wasn't given but I believe that is enough to win a round,for those that disagree maybe he can have that as well.
> 
> At the very best it's 7-5 to Marquez and 114-112 on points.
> 
> Norwood fought a slippery fight reliant on left counters. The issue was Marquez was able to consistently land the right cross himself and whilst it didn't look as spectacular as Norwood's it made a mockery of Norwood's gameplan. He threw so little despite being hit fairly often. You could say Freddie was better with his shot selection but I would vehemently disagree with anyone saying he landed more clean effective punches. Marquez was the ring general, he landed more and his aggression was effective.
> 
> This fight is one I deem a robbery.


Probably one of the worst fights ive ever seen, I think I Marquez edging it by a point, though neither man took the fight by the balls and made a significant case for themselves.


----------



## Luf

Sportofkings said:


> Probable one of the worst fights ive ever seen, I think I Marquez him edging it by a point, though neither man took the fight by the balls and made a significant case for themselves.


it was a shite fight. The only way anyone can give it Norwood is if they buy into the "have to take the belt" philosophy. I don't. Despite the lack of action in the fight there just isn't 7 rounds that Norwood won.


----------



## O59

Luf said:


> Marquez v Norwood.
> 
> I used to be quite arrogant in my scoring, these days I try to do two things. I'll score a fight on the night or upon first viewing to see how I would give it. Then I watch it again seeing which rounds I can see being given to the winner. Even if I disagree with myself I would go with the judges decision. If I can't give enough rounds to the winner I am happy calling it a robbery. For that reason I can agree with he decision between Jmm and Pac third time out, but not the decision between Jmm and John. The first I'd call an either way fight, the second I'd call a robbery and ask anyone to justify 6 John rounds.
> 
> First time I watched Marquez v Norwood I had it 8-4 JMM. Watched it again today to see if I could find 7 rounds for Norwood. I found the same 4: 2, 6, 7, 11. No other rounds I could conceive given Norwood. In the 8th JMM scored a knockdown that wasn't given but I believe that is enough to win a round,for those that disagree maybe he can have that as well.
> 
> At the very best it's 7-5 to Marquez and 114-112 on points.
> 
> Norwood fought a slippery fight reliant on left counters. The issue was Marquez was able to consistently land the right cross himself and whilst it didn't look as spectacular as Norwood's it made a mockery of Norwood's gameplan. He threw so little despite being hit fairly often. You could say Freddie was better with his shot selection but I would vehemently disagree with anyone saying he landed more clean effective punches. Marquez was the ring general, he landed more and his aggression was effective.
> 
> This fight is one I deem a robbery.


Great post.


----------



## zadfrak

Just watched Saad Muhammad--Willie Edwards.

Really don't like re-watching this because I was a Saad fan and had been to his fights. Going in, it was a good matchup between asliding down the ladder ex-champ and a good solid fighter. If Saad had any chance of getting back in the scheme of things and re-energizing his career, this was a must win. For Wille, it was a big opportunity to break out from the pile of similar fighters and move on to a big payday and possibly a lh title shot. 

From the start, Saad din't have much. And he was never ever a tough guy to solve anyway. So when those reflexes of his deteriorated just a little, there was no defense to compensate. He really got hit by everything. But still had that determination and champion's heart. But he was taking a licking every round. But the guy sure knew how to hang tough, didn't he? Plus, he was the rare breed in a sport of frontrunners--he could be hopelessly behind in a fight and still reach out and win it at anytime. Always dangerous and even moreso when tagged and stung.

But he just couldn't land those big shots of his to turn things around anymore. Those Qawi lickings really took a lot away. Fight should have been stopped earlier but who wants to pull the plug on those Saad and Gatti types who take beatings and still wing away? They finally stopped it though in the 11th. So another long sustained beating ending with a stoppage loss. Those results always seem to subtract so much from a guy. You'd rather see him starched in like 4 rounds than this.

But the bad thing was Saad contiuing to throw punches at the guy way after it'd been stopped. Way way after. The best thing was Edwards not answering and turning it into a riot. If you haven't seen it, it was kind of like that Leon Spinks disaster after that Coetzee blowout. Devastating. And they knew it. Career down the tubes and no more paydays. Those guys just knew how much that loss was going to have on their career's and that competitive heart was still there. But the physical tools that got them there wasn't.

Kind of like if a nascar driver lost a race, being forced to go back to driving at a county fair or something and never getting back to the bigtime.


----------



## Luf

Mares v Perez. I scored it 7-5 for Mares and felt I was being generous giving Perez both 7&8. I honestly don't see how he can have 6 rounds scored for him.

Quite a good action fight but definitely one Mares deserved.


----------



## tommygun711

Watched Marco Antonio Barrera vs jesus Salud. Such a brilliant performance on all levels. This is the moment where Barrera transformed into the master boxer instead of the pressure fighter he was before. Everything about this clinic was perfect. Barrera's arsenal was at an all time peak.


----------



## Luf

Gave up my Griffith marathon. Too many videos unable to be viewed on my phone and watching on my pc is a ball ache.

Instead I'm gonna watch the 3 most controversial fights for Oscar De La Hoya. Trinidad, Mosley 2 and Sturm.
The pea and quartey fights could have gone either way so the decision doesn't bother me at all.

The 3 mentioned I've never been able to find 7 rounds to justify the decision. Let's see if I still say the same in a few hours time!


----------



## Luf

Tito v Oscar.

Again I see no possible way of scoring this for Tito. 2,4,9,10,11,12 at best for Tito which would be a draw and I can't see any other round to give him. I dunno of anyone has scored the fight to Tito and justified the rounds involved. I personally would score 4,10,11,12 and have it 7-5 Oscar. It isn't a total schooling in terms of scores but in terms of how limited he made Tito look it is a schooling. 

How can anyone watch that fight and declare Tito the best welter in the world?


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> El Nica is fighting tomorrow:ibutt


Just started watching some fights again.

And El Nica latest hit was the first one i saw.

It was a rare easy win for El Nica who dominated the entire fight en route to a wide decision win, He dropped The argentine in round five with a bodyshot but as much as tried to get him outta there the stubborn argentine just wouldnt go.

Hoping for a El Nica-Segura fight next.

That would be a fucking war.


----------



## Bladerunner

Big Yamaryu-Sinichi Kadota.

Crazy wild fight with both fighters getting hurt several times during the fight until one of them(dont know who was who)finished the other dude in a crazy last round, this probably will make my top 100 fights list.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> And El Nica latest hit was the first one i saw.


Amazing performance by Concepcion.

A complete shutout over a defensive wizard.:yikes



Bladerunner said:


> Hoping for a El Nica-Segura fight next.


The inexperienced La Bomba Gonzalez was no match for Segura's pressure.

But the great El Nica will easily destroy Segura in 3 rounds.:bbb



Bladerunner said:


> That would be a fucking war.


The winner takes on Yaegashi:ibutt

And when is Saludar going to finally step up?


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> The inexperienced La Bomba Gonzalez was no match for Segura's pressure.
> 
> But the great El Nica will easily destroy Segura in 3 rounds.:bbb


Gonzalez always reminded me a bit of Calderon and just like Calderon he couldnt handle Segura's non stop pressure.

El Nica-Segura is the Hagler-Hearns of the flyweights :yep



> And when is Saludar going to finally step up?


Hopefully soon.

The Sniper looks like the real deal.

But then again i thought Gonzalez was also the real deal.


----------



## tommygun711

Decided to score Bradley-Pacquiao since so many people think it's a robbery. 

Round 1: Pacquiao wins based solely on the straight left hands he landed at the end of the round. Bradley was winning the round up to that point. Close round and if Pac didn't land those left hands he wouldn't have won the round.
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 2: Pacquiao landing alot of straight left hands again, his superior firepower made a big difference in this round. 
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 3: Bradley losing the round based on the same thing that happened in the first 2 rounds. Pac can't miss with the left hand. 
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 4: Pacquiao is outpunching Tim and hurt Bradley at the end of the round. Pac's showing a huge power differential at this point. 
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 5: Pac keeps landing the left hand and pushing Bradley back. If nothing else he takes these rounds based on the last 30 seconds where he continues to hurt Bradley with the left hand. If Bradley actually had power he would be the best in his division. Instead he's a step below the absolute best. 
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 6: Once again, Bradley winning most of the round and did MUCH BETTER until around the last minute and then Pac takes the round based on clean power punching. He swarms Bradley with left hands and lands at least 5 of them. Even round.
10-10 Even

Round 7: Bradley does a bit better in this round but still gets outworked and overpowered by pac. Up to this point I can't find a single round to really give Bradley..
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 8: By far Pac's least energetic round, Bradley couldn't really take advantage of it though. The first round I could really give to Bradley but that's barely.
10-9 Bradley (barely)

Round 9: Pac continues to punch in between Bradley's lazy punches and slings left hands in between Bradley's guard. Not a close fight really.
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 10: Sort of a nothing round, Bradley inflicting no damage whatsoever though in what would be considered his best round. 
10-9 Bradley

Round 11: When Bradley turning this into a tactical fight while Pac has gassed, he did alot better. The problem is he waited too long to implement this strategy. Pac took it with the few hard punches he landed, though.
10-9 Pacquiao

Round 12: Even round, not too much went on but it wouldn't effect my score if either man won the round. 

Pacquiao wins 8-2 with 2 even, clear robbery to me.


----------



## The Wanderer

Watched Holmes vs McCall. A few months ago I saw Holmes vs Holyfield and was surprised that nobody talks about it compared to Holyfield-Foreman, despite Larry doing fairly well in that fight, so I thought it would be a good idea to see more of Larry's comeback.

Holmes-McCall

Rd. 1 10 9
Rd. 2 10 9
Rd. 3 9 10
Rd. 4 9 10
Rd. 5 10 9
Rd. 6 10 9
Rd. 7 9 10
Rd. 8 10 9
Rd. 9 9 10 (I've seen a scorecard or two that scored this round a 10-8 without a knockdown, but it didn't reach that level for me)
Rd. 10 10 9
Rd. 11 9 10
Rd. 12 9 10

Score: 114-114. A draw.

The bout was very close, much closer than it should have been, because every time McCall upped the workrate or started fighting rough or in close Holmes couldn't adequately keep up. Holmes used every trick and trap to keep the bout in the center of the ring, or to psych out McCall, including lying on the ropes and inviting McCall in, which after a few times made McCall insist on inviting Larry back out, away from the ropes, which is exactly what Larry was going for, since those displays made McCall waste time and lose his best chances of roughing Larry up.

From the point of view of seeing an old fighter using every possible trick to preserve energy in order to deal with a younger, fresher foe, the bout is a tour de force. Holmes applied all his hard won ring lessons to keep the pace slow and stay competitive, including stealing rounds by putting on a big show at the start and sometimes the end. From any other point of view the fight is an odd one: McCall's corner insisted on exactly the wrong game plan, which was to box and jab with Holmes, McCall frequently appeared frustrated and would walk away after Holmes hit him with good shots, he was also constantly looking around the ring. At one point he basically broke into a little dance in front of Larry, all of which is enough to make me wonder if McCall was high in the ring.

That said, a lot of Larry's rounds were partially through keeping the pace slow and McCall not working enough, McCall won the only rounds that were really decisively taken, especially the 9th and 11th rounds. As a result I have no problem with the result (very narrow UD for McCall) since I can easily see at least 1 or 2 rounds that I had for Larry going the other way.


----------



## Bladerunner

Istvan Kovacs - Steve Robinson

Good performance by the former amateur star Kovacs but it has to be said that Robinson at this point was pretty much a walking punching bag, a shame that kovacs didnt achieved more at the pro ranks and retired shortly after suffering his first and only loss to Chacon, IMO he had the talent to be more than what he was as a pro.Reminded me a bit of Artur Grigorian and Orzubek Nazarov two guys that achieved more than Kovacs did but like Kovacs they left the impression that they didnt achieved the things their talents deserved, btw all three guys retired shortly after suffering the first and only loss of their careers.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> btw all three guys retired shortly after suffering the first and only loss of their careers.


Sadly, Orzubek was (and still is) half-blind.

And Grigorian had numerous shoulder injuries prior to the Freitas fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Chartchai - McGowan 2.

Why, god, why?!:cry


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Chartchai - McGowan 2.
> 
> Why, god, why?!:cry


Sometimes it's just gots to bes that way.


----------



## Lester1583

Is it me, or does Cotton - Torres look like a controversial decision?


----------



## LittleRed

I thought cotton gave it away at the end but i haven't seen that fight in years.


----------



## Luf

Just watched de la Hoya v Mosley 2.

Like the Tito fight there is just no possible way I can see this being scored for Shane.

I gave Mosley rounds 3, 9, 11 and 12. I didn't think the 8th was particularly hard to score but Harold gave it him for some reason. Oscar boxed beautifully early doors and dug real deep to take the 10th. This isn't a fight that could either way this is a bad decision. Can anyone watch that fight and say Shane was the best LMW out there? Not imo they couldn't.

I'm about to watch the De La Hoya v Sturm fight. I've always considered that a robbery as well.


----------



## Luf

I could only give Oscar rounds 1,2,4,5. I thought his body work was excellent early doors but his output dropped late on which made it all Sturm for me. And no way by money did Oscar do enough 10,11 and 12 to win all three rounds.

Definitely a robbery.


----------



## MadcapMaxie

Tommy Morrison v George Foreman

After hearing of Morrison's critical condition atm I decided to watch one of my favourites from him. He gave a seriously underrated performance, was active from start to finish throwing very heavy leather, good head movement, awesome snap to his punches and fought a very good gameplan. Foreman is just a phenom, took some of the worst shots i've seen and barely bat and eyelid. No way did Foreman come close to winning the fight though, only gave him 1 or 2 rounds.

Bert Cooper vs Joe Hipp

Short but very exciting and action packed slugfest with a prime Cooper showing what he's made of. Hipp is helluva fighter though, dude has crazy heart and a very solid chin. Def worth a watch


----------



## Luf

What the fuck is that shit? Can we delete those useless posts?
@Roe @Pabby


----------



## Indigo Pab

Luf said:


> What the fuck is that shit? Can we delete those useless posts?
> 
> @Roe @Pabby


Someone banned the account without deleting the posts.:lol: I'm on it now.


----------



## The Wanderer

So... I have a confession to make. Somehow, despite the fact that the Barrera-Morales and Pacquiao-Moraloes trilogies were a big part of getting me back into boxing during the early to mid 2000s, I'd never actually seen Pac-Morales I all the way through. I'd seen highlights, and everyone who's a boxing fan has probably watched at least the last round where Morales turns southpaw, but I'd never seen the whole fight. Well, that's now been fixed, and what a breathtaking, epic bout it was.

Pacquiao-Morales
Rd. 1 10-9
Rd. 2 9-10
Rd. 3 10-10
Rd. 4 9-10
Rd. 5 10-9
Rd. 6 9-10
Rd. 7 9-10
Rd. 8 9-10
Rd. 9 10-9
Rd. 10 9-10
Rd. 11 10-9
Rd. 12 10-9

Overall 115-114 for Erik "El Terrible" Morales. What a fight, but not as close as the score would indicate. I was probably being generous giving the 11th to Pacquiao, I felt that all night long Pacquiao was on the edge of seizing the advantage and getting to Morales, but Morales had just enough left to hold Pacquiao off and hold onto control of the fight. I can see a swing of a couple of points, all the way between my score to 116-112, but there is no doubt in my mind that Morales won that fight and deserved to do so. It was close, with both fighters being great and both hurting the other, but Pacquiao was just missing a little something at this point, maybe just proper focus and a willingness to listen to his coach, but between that and Morales giving the last great effort of his prime, he was a hair better than Manny on this night.

What a battle, and what a pair of fighters.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Big Yamaryu-Shinichi Kadota.


Totally obscure.

Outstandingly great.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Totally obscure.
> 
> Outstandingly great.


Indeed a great hidden gem.

I love it when i come across one.

Theres more in rayrobinson's channel.

I also found two new favorite asian fighters there.

Puma Toguchi and Jackal Maruyama.

Win or Lose Two Great action fighters.

Check out these ones when you have the time:

Puma Toguchi-Jesus Rojas

Puma Toguchi-Takashi Oba

Jackal Maruyama-Tsutomo Itozaku II


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Check out these ones when you have the time:
> 
> Puma Toguchi-Jesus Rojas
> 
> Puma Toguchi-Takashi Oba
> 
> Jackal Maruyama-Tsutomo Itozaku II


Will definitely do.



Bladerunner said:


> Puma Toguchi and Jackal Maruyama.
> 
> Win or Lose Two Great action fighters.


Don't forget about Leopard Tamakuma.

His fight with Yong Kam Kim was pretty good too.

By the way, have you seen Miura - Ye-Yo Thomspon yet?

I'm beginning to like Miura - not a great technician and not very quick, can be hit, 
but he's a one tough yakuza with big power - dropped Uchiyama in a hard fight, brutally destroyed Gamaliel Diaz and went into the lion's den and beat the powerpunching Ye-Yo in his own backyard.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Don't forget about Leopard Tamakuma.
> 
> His fight with Yong Kam Kim was pretty good too.


I've seen that and yes its pretty good.



> By the way, have you seen Miura - Ye-Yo Thomspon yet?


Saw it a couple of days ago.

Good fight, impressed by Miura he went in there and took the fight to the mexican, and other than a knockdown scored by the mexican the Japanese was in control the all way and had Thompson in all sorts of trouble, Thompson showed some heart and some good bodywork but outside of scoring a knockdown he was never in the fight and was lucky to have lasted the distance. Great win for Miura i thought Ye-Yo fighting at home would be too much for him but Miura had other plans and proved me wrong, looking forward to watching him again.

Segura-Marquez coming up in November, it should be a great one.

Hopefully the winner gets El Nica :yep


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Hopefully the winner gets El Nica :yep


Apparently the winner will face Estrada.

On a side note, I'm still waiting for Chocolatito to fight someone in a high-profile fight.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> On a side note, I'm still waiting for Chocolatito to fight someone in a high-profile fight.


Yeah me too, he has fought Estrada but that was before Estrada beat Viloria and Melindo so even though Estrada was a very good opponent he wasnt the high profile name he is now, a couple of months ago there were talks about Chocolatito fighting Ioka but nothing came out of that. The best bet is a rematch with Estrada if both keep winning.


----------



## jorodz

rocky vs drago

i had drago up by about 18 rounds to 0 going into the stoppage. Ivan's head hunting was near perfect. I mean he really worked Balboa's head like a speed bag the first 6. Then when he started tearing into his body? that was absurd. that combined with the fact that rock threw maybe 5 punches a round until the 19th meant a clean sweep for the russian.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Puma Toguchi and Jackal Maruyama.
> Check out these ones when you have the time


Quality brawls.

And fights with no commentary at all are the best, by the way.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> And fights with no commentary at all are the best, by the way.


Completely agree, i love watching the great Gomez-Pintor fight and one of the main reasons is cause theres no commentary. We should have the option to have commentators or not and that goes to others sports too like football, i dont need some cheerleader or some clown telling me whats going on,i can see it with my eyes.


----------



## Lester1583

Ubaldo Sacco - Gene Hatcher strangely looks like Marquez-Katsidis of the 80's.


----------



## jorodz

ahhh back on the classic. time to watch some obscure asian motherfuckers and post my wildly inaccurate scores


----------



## Bladerunner

Rafael Ruelas-Mauro Gutierrez.

A very good little brawl with an unsatisfying end...Ruelas atsch


----------



## Lester1583

After having watched the overrated borefest that was Mayweather-Canelo I was in serious need of true greatness.

So I decided to rewatch (for the tenth time) The Immortal Kalulesai destroying a prime undefeated David Griman.

Griman, of course, was a future ATG champion.

And, as we all know, Griman has never been stopped in his long illustrious career.

Khaosai crushed Griman in 5.

No weak jabs, no pathetic shoulder rolls, no running - just one merciless left hand of death.

Soul stealing body punches made McCallum look like Malignaggi.

Amazing fight - Ricardo Lopez-like perfection.


----------



## LittleRed

If God was a southpaw he would fight like Khaosai.


----------



## Lester1583

December 30, 1989:



> Thailand's twin boxing stars, Khaokor and Khaosai Galaxy, were hospitalized in Bangkok after being injured in an automobile accident.
> 
> Doctors said Khaosai, World Boxing Assn. junior bantamweight champion, sustained only minor injuries,
> 
> but Khaokor, who lost his bantamweight title in October, was unconscious after a five-hour operation for a broken jaw and a punctured lung.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Ali v Norton 3

A clear win for Norton 145-142


----------



## Ivan Drago

Watched Trinidad vs Vargas today.

:ibutt :ibutt :ibutt


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Santos 'Sweet Pea' Laciar!


Tired of Laciar's domination and one-sided boxing lessons?

Tired of Laciar's easy destructions of pathetic zapatas?

Want to see him in a tough gruelling close fight - bruised and with a swollen cheek bone?

Check out Laciar - Juanito Herrera 2.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Tired of Laciar's domination and one-sided boxing lessons?
> 
> Tired of Laciar's easy destructions of pathetic zapatas?
> 
> Want to see him in a tough gruelling close fight - bruised and with a swollen cheek bone?
> 
> Check out Laciar - Juanito Herrera 2.


on it.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> a great hidden gem


Metralleta Lopez - Jibaro Perez is a must watch.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Metralleta Lopez - Jibaro Perez is a must watch.


Indeed it is, i've seen it and its a pretty good fight.

Ray Robinson latest release Hitoshi Kamiyama-Masumi Yamaguchi is a good little scrap too.:yep


----------



## Bladerunner

Been watching Some Omar Narvaez fights.

Brilliant fighter with some very good skills and a great defense.

IMO one of the best and most underrated fighters of the last decade.

Would have loved to see a unification bout with Pong on neutral ground.

He's Still defending his title at 38 years old which is ancient for a super fly.

He makes Sergio Martinez look like a skill less bum :smile


----------



## Bill Jincock

I don't rate him as highly as you, blade, but imo he would have had a good shot at beating the weight cutter Donaire if he had been of similar size.He was just too small, but seemed to choke as well.A bit of a hometown hero Virgil Hill-esque small fight mentality.


----------



## Bladerunner

True Donaire was simply too big for him he was probably a junior lightweight on fight night against a guy thats small even for a super flyweight and a guy that was already past his best IMO,Narvaez still showed his great defense on that one(Even Floyd Sr who never has a good word about any other fighter other than his son was very impressed by his defense) but didnt do much more and seemed happy just to be there and last the distance. Disappointing performance but taking everything in consideration it was to be expected. Agree with you if both were the same size i would also give the Argentinian a very good chance at beating Donaire.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Been watching Some Omar Narvaez fights.


If I remember correctly, Narvaez - Sarritzu 2 (D12) was a blatant borderline robbery - Narvaez won that fight clearly.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> If I remember correctly, Narvaez - Sarritzu 2 (D12) was a blatant borderline robbery - Narvaez won that fight clearly.


Yes it was , Narvaez completely bossed that fight just like he did in the first one(where he was almost robbed too) no way that fight was a draw, it should have been a clear unanimous decision victory for Narvaez. It could be worse at least he still left Italy with his belt.


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> Ray Robinson latest release Hitoshi Kamiyama-Masumi Yamaguchi is a good little scrap too.:yep


I liked it too.

You just can't go wrong with raryrobinson's uploads.

Sadly, even Yamaguchi's flawless Joe Louis-like textbook punching technique couldn't save him from losing to Kamiyama's steroid mustache:-(


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> I liked it too.
> 
> You just can't go wrong with raryrobinson's uploads.
> 
> Sadly, even Yamaguchi's flawless Joe Louis-like textbook punching technique couldn't save him from losing to Kamiyama's steroid mustache:-(


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Brownies

Bladerunner said:


> Big Yamaryu-Sinichi Kadota.
> 
> Crazy wild fight with both fighters getting hurt several times during the fight until one of them(dont know who was who)finished the other dude in a crazy last round, this probably will make my top 100 fights list.


Just watched it yesterday... Thanks man ! Amazing ! I've watched some other fights from rayrobinson333, including Chong-Pal Park vs In-Chul Baek and Mark Horikoshi vs Rambo Taira.

Also, I watched Orlando Canizales vs Ray Minus, Juan Manuel Marquez vs Michael Katsidis, Floyd Patterson vs Ingemar Johansson II, Jones Jr. vs Montell Griffin II, Joe Louis vs Nathan Mann.

Damn... I was on a roll this week-end haha !


----------



## Ivan Drago

Watched Ketchel vs Johnson love the finish to the fight it's a moment of shock with Ketchels right which is punished by a brutal shot which Johnson puts his whole body into. Johnson was just huge in comparison to Ketchel and could've ended it any time he wanted to. And did.


----------



## LittleRed




----------



## jorodz

just openly wept watching a highlight of carmen basilio. watching him maul sugar ray on the ropes brought me chills


----------



## Jdempsey85

Chris Sanigar v Rocky Kelly classic british war


----------



## jorodz

Jdempsey85 said:


> Chris Sanigar v Rocky Kelly classic british war


never seen it. always love a good war. have to give it a watch later after wlad-povetkin


----------



## The Wanderer

Pernell Whitaker vs Julio Cesar Vasquez.






Had Sweet Pea winning by 3 or 4 points, certainly not his greatest performance but perhaps his most underrated win. I knew of Vasquez as being the top 154 fighter at the time since Terry Norris couldn't stop getting himself DQ'd in fights, that he had a good punch, (he knocked down a young Winky Wright 5 times after all, and has a KO of the year to his credit) and an iron chin, but he also showed a lot of good skills. In addition to being heavy handed he had decent speed in his punches, sometimes put them together quite well, showed an excellent jab.

I do have to agree with Gil Clancy that Vasquez shot himself in the foot however, by not continuing to go consistently to the body as he did in the first couple of rounds. In those early rounds between the good jab, the reach advantage Vasquez enjoyed, the power in his punches and the body attack, Whitaker looked rather uncomfortable, like he was being forced to walk along a cliff edge. As soon as Vasquez went away from the body punching and started head hunting, Sweet Pea had an easier time of things.


----------



## Bladerunner

El Nica never disappoints :happy

Brutal KO :yikes certainly a contender for KO of the year.






Bring on the winner of Marquez-Segura or Sosa-Ayegashi.

"The Gatti of the flyweights" is waiting for them :bbb

Either way the legend of El Nica lives on...

He's a God amongst men :deal


----------



## Lester1583

Bladerunner said:


> El Nica never disappoints :happy


Damn, Blade, you took the words right out of my mouth:smile

I was about to post the fight myself - El Nica's fights must be seen to be believed.



Bladerunner said:


> Bring on the winner of Marquez-Segura or Sosa-Ayegashi.


Don't judge them too harshly - they are all terrified of El Nica.



Bladerunner said:


> Either way the legend of El Nica lives on...


Anyone who doesn't have Concepcion in the top 2 (due credit needs to be given to Yamanaka's amazing dominance) clearly doesn't know his boxing.



Bladerunner said:


> Brutal KO :yikes certainly a contender for KO of the year.


You won't find him on any "best punchers today" lists (foolish mortals never appreciate true greatness until it's gone:-() 
but Concepcion does possess some serious power.


----------



## Vysotsky

jorodz said:


> just openly wept watching a highlight of carmen basilio. watching him maul sugar ray on the ropes brought me chills


I got this one saved, amazing. Not a fan of rap music but this song is great for it.


----------



## Bladerunner

Lester1583 said:


> Damn, Blade, you took the words right out of my mouth:smile
> 
> I was about to post the fight myself - El Nica's fights must be seen to be believed.
> 
> Don't judge them too harshly - they are all terrified of El Nica.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't have Concepcion in the top 2 (due credit needs to be given to Yamanaka's amazing dominance) clearly doesn't know his boxing.
> 
> You won't find him on any "best punchers today" lists (foolish mortals never appreciate true greatness until it's gone:-()
> but Concepcion does possess some serious power.


:lol::deal

Terrific post Lester.

El Nica is godly :bowdown


----------



## Pedderrs

I just watched Bert Cooper vs Ray Mercer.

One of the most brutal fights I've probably ever seen. The amount of bombs that landed in that fight without someone going to sleep was just ridiculous. Sub-human. I was particularly impressed with Smoke. He really got himself into shape for this one and was determined to win. Mercer won fairly clearly, he was more active and landed more, but he came away after the 12 rounds looking like the Elephant man. The fans at Caesars palace were going crazy.


----------



## tommygun711

Just watched Dwight Muhammad Qawi (Braxton at the time :hey) dismantle Matthew Saad Muhammad the first time. What a domination. Sure, Saad Muhammad probably wasn't at his absolute best, but it was still a fucking total destruction.. Saad Muhammad may have been through some wars but just a year prior he was still knocking motherfuckers out.

There wasn't a single point where Qawi was hurt. Saad DID try- he tried outboxing him, and was eventually forced to try and outfight him which he couldn't sustain. There were points where he boxed circles around Qawi, but Qawi walked through Saad's best shots and proceeded to put one of my favorite displays of inside fighting ever. Those uppercuts were brutal. Shit, _everything_ Qawi threw had mean intentions. The way he came inside and wore down Saad Muhammad was brutal, but still a thing of beauty.


----------



## zadfrak

Yep. Just a brutal brutal fight. and Saad was digging deep in about the 3rd round just to stay in there. Man, he got tagged clean. He just didn't seem to be able to see the punches coming and he definately was not rolling with them. What a ton of picture perfect combos he ate.

What kiiled me was after the fight, some folks thought it was an anomoly. And that Saad was going to win the rematch. Incredible. Those tough physical bouts culminating in a late ko defeat were the worst kind of defeat to suffer--that's what Angie Dundee always thought. And I sure do agree with him. It just takes so much out of a guy and they seem to be a shell in their next fight.

The rematch was worse. And it is such a tough sport for the Saad and Gatti types to take those beatings but never ever quit trying. What a hard way to exit the sport and that Qawi was 1 tough hombre at that time, wasn't he? That guy had like perfect extension on his punches and seemed to land everything at 80% and just push through the opponent's torso for that final 20%.


----------



## Lester1583

Buenas noches! Buenas noches!! Buenas noches!!!

Senor Madera buenas noches! Quiroz el campeon del mundo!:ibutt


----------



## Pedderrs

When it comes to Qawi, I hear you. He was a great fighter at his best, a beast of a man, and no Light Heavyweight would have had an easy time with him. It makes the Michael Spinks performance all that more impressive for me.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Damn, Blade, you took the words right out of my mouth:smile
> 
> I was about to post the fight myself - El Nica's fights must be seen to be believed.
> 
> Don't judge them too harshly - they are all terrified of El Nica.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't have Concepcion in the top 2 (due credit needs to be given to Yamanaka's amazing dominance) clearly doesn't know his boxing.
> 
> You won't find him on any "best punchers today" lists (foolish mortals never appreciate true greatness until it's gone:-()
> but Concepcion does possess some serious power.


Segura just won ko of the year. Falling down. backwards.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Segura just won ko of the year. Falling down. backwards.


Did you watch the fight, LR?

Judging by RBR-reports it was a FOTY-candidate.

And yes, El Nica will destroy Segura in 1 round or less.


----------



## LittleRed

Just clocked the last half. It was dizzying. Had I known I would've recorded it.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Did you watch the fight, LR?
> 
> Judging by RBR-reports it was a FOTY-candidate.
> 
> And yes, El Nica will destroy Segura in 1 round or less.


Estrada gets him though right.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Estrada gets him though right.


I'd rather watch Estrada rematching R.Gonzalez on an undercard of some big fight - Pac, Cotto, etc.

Segura's fate is to be destroyed by the hands of El Nica.


----------



## tommygun711

Watched Segura dismantle Tyson Marquez, pretty entertaining back and forth fight but it came down to the war of attrition and Segura won. Segura got outboxed and countered in spots, and clearly is just a raw pressure fighter with little skill. If Marquez was a little more durable he could've won


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> If you're not into Lopez, you are not my friend!
> Ricardo Lopez or no boxing at all Whimps and posers leave the hall!


Extensive highlight video of Pichit "The Unbeatable God" Sitbangprachan:






And at the end of the video there's also Pichit destroying Kung-Yung Lee in one round.

I know what you're thinking right now: "Wait a minute. Wait... a... minute... Is this the Kung-Yung Lee? I don't believe it.
The same ATG warrior Kung-Yung Lee who went the full distance with Ricardo Lopez, gave him his toughtest fight ever and almost made El Finito retire from boxing???!!!"

Yup, that's him.

One round, LR.

One round.

Mind-boggling?

Impossible?

Unpayakaroonable?

You decide.


----------



## LittleRed

I... I don't know what to believe anymore!


----------



## LittleRed

In all honesty that's a hell of a right hand to the body. Tony zale is proud.


----------



## jorodz

watched tarver-jones 1 for the hell of it this morning. one of my favourite corner lines of all time: "Keep picking the lock baby!". and scoring this fight for tarver simply means you don't know how to score fights


----------



## Phantom

Nicolino Locche vs Paul Fuji & Sonny Liston vs Floyd Patterson l & ll


----------



## Drew101

Segura KO1 El Nica. :bart


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Extensive highlight video of Pichit "The Unbeatable God" Sitbangprachan:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And at the end of the video there's also Pichit destroying Kung-Yung Lee in one round.
> 
> I know what you're thinking right now: "Wait a minute. Wait... a... minute... Is this the Kung-Yung Lee? I don't believe it.
> The same ATG warrior Kung-Yung Lee who went the full distance with Ricardo Lopez, gave him his toughtest fight ever and almost made El Finito retire from boxing???!!!"
> 
> Yup, that's him.
> 
> One round, LR.
> 
> One round.
> 
> Mind-boggling?
> 
> Impossible?
> 
> Unpayakaroonable?
> 
> You decide.


Nice post; saves me uploading any more of him.


----------



## Lester1583

Drew101 said:


> Segura KO1 El Nica. :bart


Who are you trying to convince, Drew?

Us or yourself?

Face it - Segura wouldn't even last a staredown with El Nica, let alone one round.


----------



## Drew101

Lester1583 said:


> Who are you trying to convince, Drew?
> 
> Us or yourself?
> 
> Face it - Segura wouldn't even last a staredown with El Nica, let alone one round.


Would El Nica even make it to the staredown before he makes his obligatory trip to the mat?


----------



## Flea Man

Let's not carried away with Segura though. Marquez ain't all that and although Segura has had a good year he's been shown up a few times.

Fair play to him for dragging himself up the rankings again.

Concepcion-Segura is a perfect fight to make. A shootout no doubt, between two warmongers known for having fallacies in their games.

Guaranteed fun.

Estrada and Gonzalez clearly a level above. Their rematch is THE fight to make in the whole of boxing IMO.


----------



## LittleRed

Since everyone is here @Lester1583 @Flea Man have you guys seen Pichit Godbangprachan-Flash Johnson. Did the fight seem a little... Close. Good scrap.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Since everyone is here @Lester1583 @Flea Man have you guys seen Pichit Godbangprachan-Flash Johnson. Did the fight seem a little... Close. Good scrap.


Excellent observation, LR.

It was very close. To say the least.

As was Pichit - Zepeda too.

But that's just nitpicking, of course - years of domination and ATG victories and only two slightly lackluster fights.

It just goes to show that we are very objective posters and we can and will criticise even the greatest, the most amazing fighters of all time.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Excellent observation, LR.
> 
> It was very close. To say the least.
> 
> As was Pichit - Zepeda too.
> 
> But that's just nitpicking, of course - years of domination and ATG victories and only two slightly lackluster fights.
> 
> It just goes to show that we are very objective posters and we can and will criticise even the greatest, the most amazing fighters of all time.


:deal

edit: zepeda was class gave the immortal finito a right tough scrap. That alone is worth more than any of Changs defenses.


----------



## Flea Man

Get fooked


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> :deal
> 
> edit: zepeda was class gave the immortal finito a right tough scrap. That alone is worth more than any of Changs defenses.


:cheers


----------



## jorodz

watched eubank-watson 2 for the first time...

I had it Watson up 107-105 going into the final round

Just a tremendous tremendous fight. Watson was much better than I've ever given him credit for. His footwork was amazing, great jab and what a fucking pace. jesus fuck, i'd love to see he and Sumbu go at it. Eubank was his usual wonderful self. No throwing enough punches, waiting for counters and then getting pissed and coming on late when he knows he's behind.

Not much to say beyond this is probably as good as Eubank Benn 1, which is still one of my favourite fights ever.


----------



## Lester1583

Donaire looked like shit, M.Garcia got dropped by some random featherfister, Floyd is a Broner-wannabe, Pac is 172 years old and Bradley is terrified of Provo.

Seppuku Yamanaka doesn't care about laughable P4P rankings, overrated hype jobs and cherry picking.

He's too busy dominating.


----------



## Flea Man

All jokes aside Martinez is crud. And Nonito had to come from behind to beat a past it Vic.


----------



## LittleRed

Mikey Garcia reminds me of Orlando Canizales. He could look unstoppable if he let his hands go.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> Mikey Garcia reminds me of Orlando Canizales. He could look unstoppable if he let his hands go.


pretty much. i got high hopes for him as long as he isn't in a fucking war that shortens his career


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Mikey Garcia reminds me of Orlando Canizales. He could look unstoppable if he let his hands go.


Orlando was made of iron.


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> Orlando was made of iron.


True. I remember Jones hit him with everything to little effect. Mikey don't have that chin m but he might hit a little harder.

Anyway it was more a stylistic comparison than one of talent.


----------



## Vic

Did you guys watch this ?

Usyk debut.


----------



## Bill Jincock

jorodz said:


> watched eubank-watson 2 for the first time...
> 
> I had it Watson up 107-105 going into the final round
> 
> Just a tremendous tremendous fight. Watson was much better than I've ever given him credit for. His footwork was amazing, great jab and what a fucking pace. jesus fuck, i'd love to see he and Sumbu go at it. Eubank was his usual wonderful self. No throwing enough punches, waiting for counters and then getting pissed and coming on late when he knows he's behind.
> 
> Not much to say beyond this is probably as good as Eubank Benn 1, which is still one of my favourite fights ever.


McGrain hacked into my account on eastside and posted copious amounts of porn, when i once mentioned Watson was as good as prime Marquez by the time he was retired by Eubank.


----------



## jorodz

Bill Jincock said:


> McGrain hacked into my account on eastside and posted copious amounts of porn, when i once mentioned Watson was as good as prime Marquez by the time he was retired by Eubank.


haha as good as jmm? I could see the argument. He was firing on all cylinders against benn. He was AMAZING that night and i haven't seen been-watson 1. mcgrain is a bastard regardless


----------



## LittleRed

@McGrain!


----------



## McGrain

That happened.


----------



## LittleRed

McGrain said:


> That happened.


:lol::nono


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Usyk debut.


Usyk looked good. For a debut.

Fast hands and feet for a cruserweight, well-schooled.

Kinda like more orthodox/more pure boxing-oriented version of Lomachenko.

Some interesting fighters in the cruserweight division right now - Kalenga, Mchunu, Makabu, "The Sledge Hammer" Kudryshov, Drozd, etc - plenty of good fights to make.


----------



## Sweet Pea

So I read some of what you jagoffs were saying and decided to watch the Gonzalez/Estrada fight. I'd known Roman was a fine fighter (although he's gotten even better), but I knew next to nothing about Estrada. Glad I watched the fight, needless to say. Highest quality fight under Flyweight in the last 15 years, probably.


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> So I read some of what you jagoffs were saying and decided to watch the Gonzalez/Estrada fight. I'd known Roman was a fine fighter (although he's gotten even better), but I knew next to nothing about Estrada. Glad I watched the fight, needless to say. Highest quality fight under Flyweight in the last 15 years, probably.


Agreed. Tremendous fight and the 112lb rematch is THE fight to make in boxing IMHO


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Usyk looked good. For a debut.
> 
> Fast hands and feet for a cruserweight, well-schooled.
> 
> Kinda like more orthodox/more pure boxing-oriented version of Lomachenko.
> 
> Some interesting fighters in the cruserweight division right now - Kalenga, Mchunu, Makabu, "The Sledge Hammer" Kudryshov, Drozd, etc - plenty of good fights to make.


Yeah, this Mchunu guy looked good in the Chambers fight.....only watched him in that fight though.


----------



## tommygun711

Vic said:


> Did you guys watch this ?
> 
> Usyk debut.


He looked good, kind of amateurish but still very technically sound. I love the way he goes to the body with that left hand. Hopefully he'll expand his offensive repertoire, and mix it up more. So far he is not better than Joshua IMO.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Just watched Robeisy Ramirez Carranza vs Yeraliyev





He's an unbelievable fighter and the future of boxing. Yeah he lost that match, it's perfectly understandable for him to be given the nod in this fight and he should have been given the third. The potential this guy has is crazy.


----------



## LittleRed

Does anyone else think Ray carried Bobby *****?


----------



## Vic

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Just watched Robeisy Ramirez Carranza vs Yeraliyev
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's an unbelievable fighter and the future of boxing. Yeah he lost that match, it's perfectly understandable for him to be given the nod in this fight and he should have been given the third. The potential this guy has is crazy.


You think he will go pro ??


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Vic said:


> You think he will go pro ??


Im pretty sure he will after 2016. Would be a huge shame if he didn't! The things he can do in the pro game is astounding.


----------



## Vic

Shouldn´t wait til 2016 though.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> cruserweight division - who's da best right now?


I've got one name for you:

William Fernando Souza Bezerra


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> I've got one name for you:
> 
> William Fernando Souza Bezerra


You made that up.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> You made that up.


I made Flea up.

William Fernando Souza Bezerra is as real as it gets.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> I made Flea up.
> 
> William Fernando Souza Bezerra is as real as it gets.


You made me up?? What shit you chattin' now ya' shitehawk??!?


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> William Fernando Souza Bezerra is as real as it gets.


Aw.

I was there Saturday 
http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=681917

didn´t watch his fight though, something happened and the opponent arrived late in the place and the fight started too late, after the main event and I had to go (the main event was Fernando Ferreira vs Leandro Pinto, good fight in terms of action)


----------



## Sweet Pea

Who is LittleRed again?


----------



## LittleRed

Sweet Pea said:


> Who is LittleRed again?


Do you know nightcrawler?


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> Who is LittleRed again?


He's just LittleRed.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Watching this after my seminar...again lool






We're looking at one of the GOATs here.


----------



## jorodz

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Watching this after my seminar...again lool
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're looking at one of the GOATs here.


I just watched him for the first time ever yesterday against Ramirez. I ran to my wife and I said I wish these were still the days when you could invest in a fighter cause i'd put all my savings in this man. Everything is great, some things are spectacular. There's few feathers that i'd genuinely favour over him and he's had one fucking fight


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Does anyone else think Ray carried Bobby *****?


Highly unlikely.

Bobby ***** carried Robinson.


----------



## Lester1583

The Powah of Boomsong:



> Last time we talked you said Duran wasn't the physically strongest fighter you fought.
> 
> Mamby: "No. Saensak Muangsurin of Thailand, also Thomas Americo of Indonesia. They weren't as sharp or as fast as Duran. And they weren't as smart as Duran. They were physically stronger than Duran though."


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

jorodz said:


> I just watched him for the first time ever yesterday against Ramirez. I ran to my wife and I said I wish these were still the days when you could invest in a fighter cause i'd put all my savings in this man. Everything is great, some things are spectacular. There's few feathers that i'd genuinely favour over him and he's had one fucking fight


 @Pedderrs
Wow, nice. He's definitely the perfect investment! I can tell you that for us major Lomachenko fans on this forum, we wasn't actually too impressed. First of all, Lomachenko was looking pretty gaunt and only rehydrated to 129lbs. Lomachenko also was struggling to understand the concept of pacing, his corner was saying he was going too slowly. This wasn't a Lomachenko in his full stride. You're seriously in for a treat if you haven't seen any of his other fights before. You'll understand what I'm talking about when you watch his fights.

I'll give you a little intro to him and then point you to some good fights of his (you can trust me, I edit his boxrec lool):
396-1 amateur record.

2006 World Junior Gold Medalist - knocked out 3 of his 4 opponents, which include a top amateur in Andrew Selby.

2007 World Silver Medalist - his only loss of his whole career was at the 2007 World Champs final against Albert Selimov, and he avenged the loss twice (once in 2008 Olympics, and again in WSB). Lomachenko still feels he won the fight.

2008 Olympic Gold medalist - Won the final in 1 minute. Won the prestigious Val Barker trophy for the best boxer

2009 World Gold medalist - In this tournament he only conceded 7 points, and *fought with a broken hand from the start of the tournament* which actually left him out for a long time when he tournament finished

2011 World Gold medalist - They eradicated the 126lbs division, so Lomachenko had to move up to lightweight. He was visibly pretty damn small for the division, especially seeing that the opponents he fought are mainly 135lbers or 140lbers i.e Conceicao (2013 World Silver), Valentino (a true Amateur Great), Ramirez (who is currently 140lbs in pros and is said to have big punching power), Toledo (Light welterweight 2013 World Silver). Vasyl Lomachenko despite being the small guy in this bigger weight class, knocked someone out, and knocked down 3 of his other 4 opponents, and I don't remember if he knocked down Valentino or not.

2012 Olympic Gold Medalist - beat current 2013 world light welterweight silver medalist Yasnier Toledo, as well as Felix Verdejo who would have most definitely been a big star in the amateurs if Vasyl wasn't around, but he's turned pro now and is considered a huge prospect. Also Loma beat the very tricky, rangy fighter in Han Soon Chul.

- All of this is why I consider him the greatest amateur of all time, he was in adverse situations in 3 of his recent four tournaments, from a broken hand to being small for the weight class, but he dominated them all and he won the Val Barker trophy in another.

2012/2013 - World Series Boxing - Ranked no.1 
Beat top elite amateurs in a pro setting, 6 fights, 5 rounds. Landed knockdowns on 3 fighters, bloodied one and could have finished it if he wanted, if it was over 12 rounds and/or with small gloves, those would have been knockouts. A point about his punching power: Seeing that he can land knockdowns on 140lbers, and they say he hits hard, just imagine what he can do with pro gloves to them? Lomachenko in his 130lb frame would be considered a puncher for the welterweight division in the pro ranks. 
So, he's already had 30 rounds at WSB, 4 rounds against Ramirez, that's as many rounds as Rigo in 2011, and Lomachenko is more suited to pros and IMO a better fighter than Rigo. What does that say about Lomachenko right now?

Lomachenko has been in there with every style. Pressure fighters, rangey long fighters, counter punchers etc. but has always come out on top. He's a truly versatile, highly cerebral fighter too.

Very good names on his amateur resume

Very pro style as you can see

Known for his fitness and stamina - spars 15 rounders with middleweights, does swimming, marathons

Has only been knocked down once on his career on a liver shot but he got up to stop the guy. He's taken big shots from the likes of Albert Selimov, Toledo etc. who are 140lbers, but has taken them with ease. Jose Ramirez in his debut had such ineffective punching power against Lomachenko. It's fair to say it looks like he has a good chin.

He's one of the top 10 fighters that I've ever seen in history, I can confidently say that.

This is a WSB fight against Domenico Valentino (World Goldx1, Silverx1, Bronzex3). Valentino is a 135lber. 





This video is a taste of his defense, have a look how he does it - it's a short fight:





This is a great performance, some showboating there at one point - this is the loss that he avenged in the 2008 olympics:





Quick fight in the 2008 Olympic Final





Why not watch Lomachenko's ability to go for the body? Let's end with a banger! 





Vasyl's knockdown highlights:





ENJOY!

@Flea Man what's your impression of Vasyl?


----------



## Vic

He´s truly impressive IMO.....
Btw, @The Undefeated Gaul, Esquiva FAlcão will make his debut in February 22, in China, looking forward to watch....


----------



## jorodz

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Wow, nice. He's definitely the perfect investment! I can tell you that for us major Lomachenko fans on this forum, we wasn't actually too impressed. First of all, Lomachenko was looking pretty gaunt and only rehydrated to 129lbs. Lomachenko also was struggling to understand the concept of pacing, his corner was saying he was going too slowly. This wasn't a Lomachenko in his full stride. You're seriously in for a treat if you haven't seen any of his other fights before. You'll understand what I'm talking about when you watch his fights.
> 
> I'll give you a little intro to him and then point you to some good fights of his (you can trust me, I edit his boxrec lool):
> 396-1 amateur record.
> 
> 2006 World Junior Gold Medalist - knocked out 3 of his 4 opponents, which include a top amateur in Andrew Selby.
> 
> 2007 World Silver Medalist - his only loss of his whole career was at the 2007 World Champs final against Albert Selimov, and he avenged the loss twice (once in 2008 Olympics, and again in WSB). Lomachenko still feels he won the fight.
> 
> 2008 Olympic Gold medalist - Won the final in 1 minute. Won the prestigious Val Barker trophy for the best boxer
> 
> 2009 World Gold medalist - In this tournament he only conceded 7 points, and *fought with a broken hand from the start of the tournament* which actually left him out for a long time when he tournament finished
> 
> 2011 World Gold medalist - They eradicated the 126lbs division, so Lomachenko had to move up to lightweight. He was visibly pretty damn small for the division, especially seeing that the opponents he fought are mainly 135lbers or 140lbers i.e Conceicao (2013 World Silver), Valentino (a true Amateur Great), Ramirez (who is currently 140lbs in pros and is said to have big punching power), Toledo (Light welterweight 2013 World Silver). Vasyl Lomachenko despite being the small guy in this bigger weight class, knocked someone out, and knocked down 3 of his other 4 opponents, and I don't remember if he knocked down Valentino or not.
> 
> 2012 Olympic Gold Medalist - beat current 2013 world light welterweight silver medalist Yasnier Toledo, as well as Felix Verdejo who would have most definitely been a big star in the amateurs if Vasyl wasn't around, but he's turned pro now and is considered a huge prospect. Also Loma beat the very tricky, rangy fighter in Han Soon Chul.
> 
> - All of this is why I consider him the greatest amateur of all time, he was in adverse situations in 3 of his recent four tournaments, from a broken hand to being small for the weight class, but he dominated them all and he won the Val Barker trophy in another.
> 
> 2012/2013 - World Series Boxing - Ranked no.1
> Beat top elite amateurs in a pro setting, 6 fights, 5 rounds. Landed knockdowns on 3 fighters, bloodied one and could have finished it if he wanted, if it was over 12 rounds and/or with small gloves, those would have been knockouts. A point about his punching power: Seeing that he can land knockdowns on 140lbers, and they say he hits hard, just imagine what he can do with pro gloves to them? Lomachenko in his 130lb frame would be considered a puncher for the welterweight division in the pro ranks.
> So, he's already had 30 rounds at WSB, 4 rounds against Ramirez, that's as many rounds as Rigo in 2011, and Lomachenko is more suited to pros and IMO a better fighter than Rigo. What does that say about Lomachenko right now?
> 
> Lomachenko has been in there with every style. Pressure fighters, rangey long fighters, counter punchers etc. but has always come out on top. He's a truly versatile, highly cerebral fighter too.
> 
> Very good names on his amateur resume
> 
> Very pro style as you can see
> 
> Known for his fitness and stamina - spars 15 rounders with middleweights, does swimming, marathons
> 
> Has only been knocked down once on his career on a liver shot but he got up to stop the guy. He's taken big shots from the likes of Albert Selimov, Toledo etc. who are 140lbers, but has taken them with ease. Jose Ramirez in his debut had such ineffective punching power against Lomachenko. It's fair to say it looks like he has a good chin.
> 
> He's one of the top 10 fighters that I've ever seen in history, I can confidently say that.
> 
> This is a WSB fight against Domenico Valentino (World Goldx1, Silverx1, Bronzex3). Valentino is a 135lber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video is a taste of his defense, have a look how he does it - it's a short fight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great performance, some showboating there at one point - this is the loss that he avenged in the 2008 olympics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick fight in the 2008 Olympic Final
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not watch Lomachenko's ability to go for the body? Let's end with a banger!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vasyl's knockdown highlights:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ENJOY!
> 
> @Flea Man what's your impression of Vasyl?


wow! what a fantastic introduction. I'll be diving into this once I finish a stupid report. you answered a lot of my questions but here's a couple:

1)How does he compare with Rigo? I'm very impressed with Rigo so far but you feel Vasyl is far superior. I've rated Rigo-Savon-Breland as some of the best AMs all time but I'm very weak on my amateur knowledge

2)How are his hands? It sounds like they are a bit susceptible to breakage?

3)Against Ramirez, he had his hands down at times and spun a bit like that. Is this his style? Just a "sloppy" fight?

I watched a bit of WSB as well and he has power, speed, etc. But those weren't EXACTLY the best competition. Can't wait to dive into his Olympic stuff (08 sounds fanastic)


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

jorodz said:


> wow! what a fantastic introduction. I'll be diving into this once I finish a stupid report. you answered a lot of my questions but here's a couple:
> 
> 1)How does he compare with Rigo? I'm very impressed with Rigo so far but you feel Vasyl is far superior. I've rated Rigo-Savon-Breland as some of the best AMs all time but I'm very weak on my amateur knowledge
> 
> 2)How are his hands? It sounds like they are a bit susceptible to breakage?
> 
> 3)Against Ramirez, he had his hands down at times and spun a bit like that. Is this his style? Just a "sloppy" fight?
> 
> I watched a bit of WSB as well and he has power, speed, etc. But those weren't EXACTLY the best competition. Can't wait to dive into his Olympic stuff (08 sounds fanastic)


 @Pedderrs
1. No problem, I'm known and probably hated for being a big Lomachenko fan. People don't like the fact that me and dealt_with think he's one of the very best ever to lace them up, and dealt_with thinks he's the best ever. But I think it's reasonable seeing as I think Rigondeaux is also one of the best to lace them up, especially seeing that I have him beating the likes of Marquez, Hamed, Barrera, Pacquiao, Morales, Zaragoza etc. Some share this opinion about Rigo, some don't, that's fine but it's still a plausible opinion. But if that can be said about Rigondeaux then why can't that be said about Lomachenko? After all, what did Rigondeaux really learn since turning pro other than pacing and a bit more on when to trade (things that any pro learns)? For complete, veteran, experienced fighters like Lomachenko and Rigo, there is only very minuscule things they can add to their game.

- I feel Vasyl is superior in that Vasyl has a more pro style

- I believe he has a better chin..Rigondeaux's chin was always a little bit suspect even in ams

- There is more versatility to Vasyl's game. He's not just good at coming forward (you described him very well here when you said 'His grasp of movement and angles is ridiculously advanced...he's doing Manny Pac shit as basically a kid. And he's a southpaw that doesn't fight in that horrible, recent southpaw style...pawing with the right instead of jabbing, keeping it way too high on the head, poor upper body movement just a high guard'. Lomachenko is also is a very good counter puncher which you may have seen glimpses of in the Ramirez fight, as well as having a great ability to fight oj the back foot. Whereas, I remember watching in the amateurs that Rigondeaux did try to be more aggressive but that left him rather confused and eventually he got tagged quite often and even in a bit of trouble (hopefully I'll see another side of Rigo against Agbeko as I hear he's going to fight aggressive against Agbeko which doesn't really seem like a good idea at al). Rigondeaux is a pure master at what he does, and what he does is so specialised that it can work well for him, but outside of that he lacks fluid intelligence. As Vasyl's opponent from WSB Sam Maxwell said, 'He's just got a lot of gameplans'.

- Vasyl's ability to fight on the inside is absolutely unreal.

You're definitely right in that Rigo and Savon have a solid case, particularly Savon, however I'm not too sure about Breland.

2. His hands have given him zero problems thankfully so it's ok.

3. He has the ability to do that, you'll see more of it in the Valentino fight on WSB. It's not sloppy, it's very measured, he's mostly like this when he wants to counter. But if you look at the Lomachenko-Bochkov fight, you can see keeps his hands up, and thus it is strengthening the point I made about Vasyl's versatility.

A thing to consider about WSB is that gaining a 5-0 record is very difficult, there are very few fighters who are undefeated. Bashenov and Selimov (World Gold 07'), are both 5-1 (after losing to Lomachenko), and if you analyse them, particularly Selimov, it's clear they'd be very good pros. With WSB, we are talking the elite amateurs here. Elite amateurs who have padded gloves and 5 rounders - so there is an element of forgiveness for any fighter who does not have a great chin, or great stamina. They're highly skilled, and so would do well, Selimov I believe would be a future world champion so I'd love for him to turn pro. Notice that good amateurs usually do quite well or very well in pros. The good amateurs that have beaten other good amateurs in this pro setting are more likely to be very good in the pro game. Without a doubt, Maxwellx2, Selimov, Valentino, Bashenov, Suarez provide more educational rounds than Rigondeaux's opponents who were knocked out within a few rounds for example, they're highly skilled guys + again, look at the size difference between these guys and Lomachenko.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Vic said:


> He´s truly impressive IMO.....
> Btw, @The Undefeated Gaul, Yamaguchi FAlcão will make his debut in February 22, in China, looking forward to watch....


Yup, very excited about this. I am not too convinced however that he can be a great pro, and I'm not too convinced of his punching power. He's brother is better for pros and just the better boxer

wY0 IS HIS OPPONENT:


----------



## tommygun711

watched Hearns vs Singletary since it was on the Shavers-Sims undercard along with Ali-Berbick

by far the most impressive fight on the card. Hearns dominated damn near every round. Singletary is extremely tough to take all of the bombs he did, Hearns really hit him with everything but couldn't seem to put him away. Singletary was apparently very durable, the only other fight I have seen him in is against Fletcher and he took a beating there as well.. Surprising that Fletcher, who by all means is a lesser puncher & all around fighter than hearns was for sure, was able to stop Singletary but Hearns never really got close.


----------



## Vic

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yup, very excited about this. I am not too convinced however that he can be a great pro, and I'm not too convinced of his punching power. He's brother is better for pros and just the better boxer
> 
> wY0 IS HIS OPPONENT:


No opponent yet as far as I know.....


----------



## Lester1583

Chong-Pal's fluid combinations and counterpunches were pretty good.

Considering Chong-Pal's main weakness, Chong-Pal - Calzaghe would have been an intriguing fight.


----------



## Flea Man

I am here Gaul;

Have been a fan of Lomachenko's since his first Olympics. Felt then he had a pro style but he's got better and better as the years have progressed.

When he lets his hands go he is spectacular. Very, very above average journeyman (in the old fashioned sense) in his pro debut but not sure he's ready for Salido just yet....the Mexicans chin is on the wane but he's still wiley and dangerous.
I love Lomachenkos body assault. He does show incredible poise and that will see him do well.

Best style to beat him is someone who can frustrate him; personally don't want to see Rigo stray too far past 122lbs though. He's a lickle guy.

Sky is the limit for Vasyl. Don't like those that thought it was a given he'd be an ATG before he'd even had a pro fight but with his skillset and amateur experience against a wide variety of highly-nyanced stylists I think he can move into the top level pretty quickly and compete tit-for-tat with anyome at 126.

JuanMa is heavy handed but one dimensional; that's the perfect 2nd fight for Vasyl imo if they're thinking of moving him fast. When Lomachenko fights in close with his tidy inside game Lopez is a danger.

But Lopez made 126 recently and Salido turned him over twice. So if they're thinking of Salido there's no reason to be scared of JuanMa, who conveniently fights under Top Rank as well.

Or take it a bit slower and have Lomachenko fight top 5 oppo' after 5 fights or so. Who wouldn't wanna' see Lomachenko take on Salido and Chris John in the next year? Both tough tasks for different reasons but 126 is spread thinly and Lomachenko is a seriously talented prospect already.

Interesting times for the purist.


----------



## Flea Man

Selimov gave Lomachenko the hardest fight in WSB by miles....maybe as much since their first fight (I imagine)


----------



## Vic

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yup, very excited about this. I am not too convinced however that he can be a great pro, and I'm not too convinced of his punching power. He's brother is better for pros and just the better boxer
> 
> wY0 IS HIS OPPONENT:


Just edited what I said, because in fact Esquiva is the one who will fight in China (he´s with Arum).......not Yamaguchi.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Flea Man said:


> I am here Gaul;
> 
> Have been a fan of Lomachenko's since his first Olympics. Felt then he had a pro style but he's got better and better as the years have progressed.
> 
> When he lets his hands go he is spectacular. Very, very above average journeyman (in the old fashioned sense) in his pro debut but not sure he's ready for Salido just yet....the Mexicans chin is on the wane but he's still wiley and dangerous.
> I love Lomachenkos body assault. He does show incredible poise and that will see him do well.
> 
> Best style to beat him is someone who can frustrate him; personally don't want to see Rigo stray too far past 122lbs though. He's a lickle guy.
> 
> Sky is the limit for Vasyl. Don't like those that thought it was a given he'd be an ATG before he'd even had a pro fight but with his skillset and amateur experience against a wide variety of highly-nyanced stylists I think he can move into the top level pretty quickly and compete tit-for-tat with anyome at 126.
> 
> JuanMa is heavy handed but one dimensional; that's the perfect 2nd fight for Vasyl imo if they're thinking of moving him fast. When Lomachenko fights in close with his tidy inside game Lopez is a danger.
> 
> But Lopez made 126 recently and Salido turned him over twice. So if they're thinking of Salido there's no reason to be scared of JuanMa, who conveniently fights under Top Rank as well.
> 
> Or take it a bit slower and have Lomachenko fight top 5 oppo' after 5 fights or so. Who wouldn't wanna' see Lomachenko take on Salido and Chris John in the next year? Both tough tasks for different reasons but 126 is spread thinly and Lomachenko is a seriously talented prospect already.
> 
> Interesting times for the purist.


Nice!

lol I've become a notorious and quite hated fan, I admit I do partially troll but trolling can be fun, I think he's one of the very best I've ever seen.

I was actually watching Selimov vs Lomachenko right now and I'm actually going to upload the fight in slower motion as it can be hard to see what lands cleanly. I felt that Lomachenko in this fight was going forward more times than he should have. I've seen it many times now and the first time watching it I thought it was 3-2 Loma, but for the last few times I've felt it was a 4-1 decision for Loma. Selimov has got a very good defence and great timing with his counters.

Salido is probably the toughest fight out there that he could have made given that he hasn't even learned how to pace himself effectively. Lomachenko is an effective counter puncher and Salido is going to obviously bring the fight to the inside because that's Salido after all. It will be a big mistake and although I suspect Salido to put Lomachenko through hell and back, I'm almost completely sure Lomachenko will land a few knockdowns. You don't want to go in an inside battle against Lomachenko. It was quite a shambles to watch Loma's attempt at pacing tbh. His father was asking him why he's going so slow. Ramirez is not bad, and given the right occasion he'd rise as we saw against Bautista and Lomachenko. I think he should take his career more seriously. He but on a gutsy performance but didn't have the power to threaten Lomachenko, something I attribute towards Lomachenko's great footwork rather than any deficit in Ramirez's game.

The only two fighters who I honestly think can give Lomachenko any sort of problem is Salido for a second fight, and Mikey Garcia but the Mikey fight will be handled easier than Salido for a second fight.

Juanma doesn't have a title and Vasyl is hell bent on getting that title in the second fight to make history, which is something I admire. Vasyl says he has a hand issue I just found out (hopefully not on the hand that troubled him a few years ago during the world amateur champs in 09'), so he'll fight Salido on March 1st. 
Salido is obliged to fight Russell Jr or will lose the title, I'd personally prefer Salido losing to Russell Jr, as I know Russell Jr for the lack of the better term, will be easy work for Vasyl.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Vic said:


> Just edited what I said, because in fact Esquiva is the one who will fight in China (he´s with Arum).......not Yamaguchi.


Wow, that's great. I remember watching the Murata-Esquiva fight a while ago and felt he deserved the nod. But neither really deserved the gold because there was only one robbery victim meant for that gold, Ehven Khytrov :deal

edit: It's nice to see that they've BOTH actually gone pro. 
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/9978540/esquiva-falcao-signs-top-rank


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2013/11/vasyl-lomachenko-vs-orlando-salido-on-march-1st/

- ESB always finds a way atsch


----------



## Sweet Pea

I'll be rolling on the ground laughing and never letting you guys hear the end of it if this dude suffers a brutal KO. A guy who's had one pro fight is one of the top 10 fighters of all time? Jesus...


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Sweet Pea said:


> I'll be rolling on the ground laughing and never letting you guys hear the end of it if this dude suffers a brutal KO. A guy who's had one pro fight is one of the top 10 fighters of all time? Jesus...


He can't be touched, like RJJ.

Depending on how he psychologically registers that KO, he'd still go on to achieve great things. Me and Dealt say that it doesn't actually matter if he loses against Salido, we genuinely think it'll be a valuable lesson and he will display the greatness we know him to have eventually anyway.


----------



## Flea Man

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> He can't be touched, like RJJ.
> 
> Depending on how he psychologically registers that KO, he'd still go on to achieve great things. Me and Dealt say that it doesn't actually matter if he loses against Salido, we genuinely think it'll be a valuable lesson and he will display the greatness we know him to have eventually anyway.


I don't want him to break the record.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Flea Man said:


> I don't want him to break the record.


Muangsurin's your boy but you know what they say, records are meant to be broken. He's had that record for a long time Flea, it's time for him to let go of it. :nod
His reign shall not be forgotten


----------



## LittleRed

I count those WSB fights. How are they different than four round pro fights? Just some minor things.


----------



## Flea Man

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Muangsurin's your boy but you know what they say, records are meant to be broken. He's had that record for a long time Flea, it's time for him to let go of it. :nod
> His reign shall not be forgotten


Let's see Lomachenko make 7 defences in a year :yep


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Flea Man said:


> Let's see Lomachenko make 7 defences in a year :yep


:lol: Let's see how many people want to step up to the plate in the first place

7 in a year, what a mad man!


----------



## Flea Man

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> :lol: Let's see how many people want to step up to the plate in the first place
> 
> 7 in a year, what a mad man!


Certainly was a mad man. You seen him zombie impression, when half blind, past his best and above his best weight, against some undefeated lanky welter called Tommy Hearns?


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Flea Man said:


> Certainly was a mad man. You seen him zombie impression, when half blind, past his best and above his best weight, against some undefeated lanky welter called Tommy Hearns?


He was half blind by the time he got to the Hearns fight? Meh, it's very loosely called a loss when you're past it and up against a big dude who happens to be one of the best ever. Muangsurin, the type of guy who will get knocked out with a smile. I liked his impressions though!


----------



## Flea Man

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> He was half blind by the time he got to the Hearns fight? Meh, it's very loosely called a loss when you're past it and up against a big dude who happens to be one of the best ever. Muangsurin, the type of guy who will get knocked out with a smile. I liked his impressions though!


Certainly a brutal loss but despite getting destroyed in a few rounds I think it was an incredible display of toughness and resilience considering the punches he was taking.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Flea Man said:


> Certainly a brutal loss but despite getting destroyed in a few rounds I think it was an incredible display of toughness and resilience considering the punches he was taking.


Yeah I was expecting him to fold. With the amount of punishment he was taking, especially from Hitman, I was pleasantly surprised to see him still taking it and hanging in there.

War Muangsurin! :ibutt


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Future Top P4Per right here. Just imagine if this kid turns pro in 2016 :scaredas:
Rate this guy a lot.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Vic said:


> Just edited what I said, because in fact Esquiva is the one who will fight in China (he´s with Arum).......not Yamaguchi.


You're excited about the Falcao brothers, but honestly, I think you should be excited about the recent World Silver medalist, one of Lomachenko's victims...Robson Conceicao too. 
When he leans back against the ropes LOL





I didn't used to like this guy because he fought such a dirty fight against Loma, it was just a shambles what he was doing. But the guy is awkward, unique, a very exciting style to watch.

Would like for this guy to turn pro. Don't you find it weird how he lands huge shots like this, yet he only has 2KO's since 2006 as an amateur?


----------



## Vic

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> You're excited about the Falcao brothers, but honestly, I think you should be excited about the recent World Silver medalist, one of Lomachenko's victims...Robson Conceicao too.
> When he leans back against the ropes LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't used to like this guy because he fought such a dirty fight against Loma, it was just a shambles what he was doing. But the guy is awkward, unique, a very exciting style to watch.
> 
> Would like for this guy to turn pro. Don't you find it weird how he lands huge shots like this, yet he only has 2KO's since 2006 as an amateur?


Yeah, I like him too. What do you think about Everton Lopes ?


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Vic said:


> Yeah, I like him too. What do you think about Everton Lopes ?


Good inside fighter, good at rolling shots, nice jab, beautiful left hand, definitely has decent power from his amateurs as well as WSB. 
In WSB, he has 3-1 record with 2KO's, having lost to Akshalov but beaten some good competition i.e Juan Pablo Romero who is tough as nails and is known as a good fighter in WSB. A win against him and that really does make you one to watch. Also he has a KO win over Raynell Williams in WSB, who was pretty good.

A little comment about the World Championships last month.
As we know, Akshalov is the 2013 world gold medalist (Everton beat Akshalov in 2011). I think Everton (who won 2011 World Champs) got a gift decision early in the tournament from last month at worlds, but from what I remember, he had a very even fight with Akshalov in the semi-final of the Worlds and it could have went either way. He would have had a tough opponent in Yasnier Toledo Lopez though, a fight I'd love to watch.

He was pretty damn inconsistent in the past but over the last few years has become more consistent although it's hard not to get the sense of feeling like a gambler with Everton. He's not really the safest of bets to put your money on.

Will he succeed as a pro? Yeah, he has all the tools but he's a bit of a tough project.


----------



## Ivan Drago

Eklund-Leonard.

Really enjoyable fight Leonard is classy and boxes brilliantly but Dicky was skilled, worked well off the jab and caught Ray with more than a few decent shots throughout but Rays body work was really nice and stopped Eklund from ever establishing a rhythm.

And it was a slip.


----------



## Sweet Pea

Honestly, that fight was reminiscent of a lot of Leonard's fights. Opponent appears to do well over the first couple of rounds while Ray is loosening up and gauging them. Then, once he's solved them, the fight is his. It wasn't competitive after the first 3 rounds or so. Dicky was tough, though.


----------



## jorodz

gotta sit down and watch garcia-matthysse this weekend but i checked out highlights this morning. it really seems that matthysse has no answers for garcia when he's boxing. his faster hands and angles kept him just a step ahead from everything i saw. matthysse would create openings with his aggression and power but his biggest successes really seemed to come when garcia decided to trade. can't wait to watch this one


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

jorodz said:


> gotta sit down and watch garcia-matthysse this weekend but i checked out highlights this morning. it really seems that matthysse has no answers for garcia when he's boxing. his faster hands and angles kept him just a step ahead from everything i saw. matthysse would create openings with his aggression and power but his biggest successes really seemed to come when garcia decided to trade. can't wait to watch this one


When I watched that fight, I likened Matthysse to a girl who you seen on facebook who looked really hot in her pictures, but then when you saw her in real life you were not very impressed.


----------



## doug.ie

hagler v mugabi

mugabi was superb in this fight....composed, confident and skillful....his previous fight I thought he looked like a wild slugger with swinging telegraphed punches.....but he was anything but crude vs hagler....a great performance.


----------



## Ivan Drago

Sweet Pea said:


> Honestly, that fight was reminiscent of a lot of Leonard's fights. Opponent appears to do well over the first couple of rounds while Ray is loosening up and gauging them. Then, once he's solved them, the fight is his. It wasn't competitive after the first 3 rounds or so. Dicky was tough, though.


It was always in Ray's control but you gotta admire Eklunds perseverance he never gets frustrated with the skill level of Leonard and especially the fact that Ray went to the body superbly switching up between the head every now and then to punish Dicky but Dicky never changed his style he kept boxing all the way as he was finding some success here and there.

Plus even though it was a push/slip the way he stepped over him was a thing of beauty.


----------



## jorodz

_


doug.ie said:


> hagler v mugabi
> 
> mugabi was superb in this fight....composed, confident and skillful....his previous fight I thought he looked like a wild slugger with swinging telegraphed punches.....but he was anything but crude vs hagler....a great performance.


agree. i think mugabi gets sold quite short all things considered...he really was a beast and put on a hell of a performance. yes, hagler was getting old. but he also had a young determined and quite skilled power puncher in front of him. mugabi didn't just have that cannon of a right hand: he was able to deliver it to the target time and again. oh, and mugabi had a FANTASTIC beard on him this night. anyone wanting to call him chinny in the least needs to take 3 of the dozens of clean right hands Mugabi took from Hagler.


----------



## jorodz

watched garcia-matthysse in full today. damn :verysad matthysse was about as one-dimensional as you get. he did the same thing all fight and though he worked on occasion, garcia had way too much lateral movement and tools for him. close but clear decision


----------



## Sweet Pea

Leo Gamez vs Pichit Sor Siriwat

My first look at Pichit. I was quite impressed throughout. He was dominating a solid fighter and looked on the verge of stopping him multiple times. Then a light just went on inside Gamez's head in that 6th round and he just threw it all into every shot, walking him down until the big right hand that finished it. I'd hail that fight as a closet classic. Awesome comeback.


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> Leo Gamez vs Pichit Sor Siriwat
> 
> My first look at Pichit. I was quite impressed throughout. He was dominating a solid fighter and looked on the verge of stopping him multiple times. Then a light just went on inside Gamez's head in that 6th round and he just threw it all into every shot, walking him down until the big right hand that finished it. I'd hail that fight as a closet classic. Awesome comeback.


You seen any Pichit Sithbangprachan?


----------



## Sweet Pea

That's the same guy, is it not? Thai people seem to have like 2-3 variations of a last name.


----------



## Sweet Pea

LOL, I guess not. I boxrec'd the one that lost to Gamez and his alias was "Pichit Sithbanprachan". So there's two?

Oh well, that fight was well worth the watch. I guess I'll have to check out the one you guys are always talking about.


----------



## jorodz

Sweet Pea said:


> That's the same guy, is it not? Thai people seem to have like 2-3 variations of a last name.


90% of the boxers flea talks about are made up. He just takes a name, adds or subtracts a couple of syllables and bam! a new flyweight champion from 1974


----------



## tommygun711

watched Hagler vs obelmejias I yesterday. such a beat down. obelmejias was very competitive considering how long he lasted and all of the shots he took. I think he gets underrated. I remember it being more 1 sided than it was but obelmejias actually landed his fair share of right hooks/straight rights and Hagler kind of struggled with his height for a few rounds.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Chacon vs Limon 4

Approaching 50 viewings,gets better every time.INCREDIBLE


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> LOL, I guess not. I boxrec'd the one that lost to Gamez and his alias was "Pichit Sithbanprachan". So there's two?
> 
> Oh well, that fight was well worth the watch. I guess I'll have to check out the one you guys are always talking about.


Check out Pichit Vs Rodolfo Blanco on my channel :good


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> watched Hagler vs obelmejias I yesterday. such a beat down. obelmejias was very competitive considering how long he lasted and all of the shots he took. I think he gets underrated. I remember it being more 1 sided than it was but obelmejias actually landed his fair share of right hooks/straight rights and Hagler kind of struggled with his height for a few rounds.


Watch Fully Obel Vs Chong Pal Park I on my channel


----------



## Flea Man

Jdempsey85 said:


> Chacon vs Limon 4
> 
> Approaching 50 viewings,gets better every time.INCREDIBLE


My favourite fight ever


----------



## Vic

Flea Man said:


> My favourite fight ever


off-topic because it´s not boxing but Muay Thai. I thought you should know though, just found this today Flea:

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk8nVUXU_J-USqy1oeIvgdw/videos
Samart Payakaroon vs Samransak Muangsurin there, not sure if it´s rare or something, but it´s new for me...


----------



## jorodz

Jdempsey85 said:


> Chacon vs Limon 4
> 
> Approaching 50 viewings,gets better every time.INCREDIBLE


atsch it's with great shame i admit i've never seen it


----------



## Jdempsey85

jorodz said:


> atsch it's with great shame i admit i've never seen it


If ur thinking of buying tonights ppv fights,Dont watch this epic battle.


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> Watch Fully Obel Vs Chong Pal Park I on my channel


I watched that one early this month, pretty classy performance but I can't say that Park was even in his league . You can't even say this is a styles thing. he was straight up better than him. Also saw the one against In-Chul Baek. Gonna find all the other film I can on him now.


----------



## Lester1583

Sweet Pea said:


> Leo Gamez vs Pichit Sor Siriwat
> Awesome comeback.


Indeed it is.

Sor Siriwat has brought disgrace upon the whole Mighty Pichit family.

Pathetic weakling.


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> I watched that one early this month, pretty classy performance but I can't say that Park was even in his league . You can't even say this is a styles thing. he was straight up better than him. Also saw the one against In-Chul Baek. Gonna find all the other film I can on him now.


Park was bloody good.


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> off-topic because it´s not boxing but Muay Thai. I thought you should know though, just found this today Flea:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk8nVUXU_J-USqy1oeIvgdw/videos
> Samart Payakaroon vs Samransak Muangsurin there, not sure if it´s rare or something, but it´s new for me...


:-D


----------



## Bill Jincock

tommygun711 said:


> I watched that one early this month, pretty classy performance but I can't say that Park was even in his league . You can't even say this is a styles thing. he was straight up better than him. Also saw the one against In-Chul Baek. Gonna find all the other film I can on him now.


it was a styles thing.Park was well known for his weak chin\punch taking mentality and a notorious crumbler against big punchers.A sort of Korean Ken Norton

Obel is an underrated fighter though imo.Really dangerous and i'm not certain some of the more generally highly regarded punchers like Benn would have beat him.


----------



## Lester1583

If only Floyd looked as amazing outboxing Alvarez as Zapata did against the far more dangerous G.Torres he'd definitely have been the #4 p4p fighter.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> If only Floyd looked as amazing outboxing Alvarez as Zapata did against the far more dangerous G.Torres he'd definitely have been the #4 p4p fighter.


Torres got owned. 15 perfect rounds.


----------



## Klompton

Ernie Terrell Vs. Zora Folley. This was an interesting fight. It was Terrell's first main event at Madison Square Garden after coming off an important win over Cleveland Williams in Philadelphia. Folley was coming off a nice win over Bob Cleroux. I had always been curious about this fight. Terrell, despite sporting a five inch height advantage did not fight tall as I would have expected to get the wide UD. I figured he would lay back and pop jobs. Instead he fought out of a kind of crouch and pressed the action. Folley tried to counter but could not find much success. Instead of Terrell's height giving Folley problems it was more of Folley seemingly unable to pull the trigger, or time Terrell. Boxrec quotes the UPI saying that Folley was hurt in rounds 2 and 4 and that Terrell was hurt in round 8. Well, if that was hurt then Id hate to see someone really hurt. Neither guy was so much as wobbled and in reality the fight was a somewhat repetitive pattern of the men sparring for an opening before Terrell would attack, Folley would try unsuccessfully to counter, and then they would clinch before being parted to resume. It was an interesting fight from the standpoint of watching Terrell's development and seeing where Folley was mentally after being stopped by Jones. Based on his performance and his record between Jones and Ali it looks to me like this is a Folley who is slowly trying to get his confidence back despite slowing down due to age. Terrell was clearly still learning. He could have made the fight much easier had he used his height and reach. Unless Im mistaken Terrell was a knockout artist in the amateurs and here he retains some of that aggressiveness that had left him a few years later.


----------



## jorodz

Klompton said:


> Ernie Terrell Vs. Zora Folley. This was an interesting fight. It was Terrell's first main event at Madison Square Garden after coming off an important win over Cleveland Williams in Philadelphia. Folley was coming off a nice win over Bob Cleroux. I had always been curious about this fight. Terrell, despite sporting a five inch height advantage did not fight tall as I would have expected to get the wide UD. I figured he would lay back and pop jobs. Instead he fought out of a kind of crouch and pressed the action. Folley tried to counter but could not find much success. Instead of Terrell's height giving Folley problems it was more of Folley seemingly unable to pull the trigger, or time Terrell. Boxrec quotes the UPI saying that Folley was hurt in rounds 2 and 4 and that Terrell was hurt in round 8. Well, if that was hurt then Id hate to see someone really hurt. Neither guy was so much as wobbled and in reality the fight was a somewhat repetitive pattern of the men sparring for an opening before Terrell would attack, Folley would try unsuccessfully to counter, and then they would clinch before being parted to resume. It was an interesting fight from the standpoint of watching Terrell's development and seeing where Folley was mentally after being stopped by Jones. Based on his performance and his record between Jones and Ali it looks to me like this is a Folley who is slowly trying to get his confidence back despite slowing down due to age. Terrell was clearly still learning. He could have made the fight much easier had he used his height and reach. Unless Im mistaken Terrell was a knockout artist in the amateurs and here he retains some of that aggressiveness that had left him a few years later.


never saw this one but i've never been THAT high on folley. i'll take a look at this one when i've got some time. but what you recommend for required viewing on old folley?


----------



## Klompton

jorodz said:


> never saw this one but i've never been THAT high on folley. i'll take a look at this one when i've got some time. but what you recommend for required viewing on old folley?


The Henry Cooper 2, Bonavena 1, and Chuvalo fights all show what a a professional, well rounded fighter he was. He was past his best in all of those with the possible exception of the Cooper bout. Yet, he blows Cooper out of the water to avenge ane arlier controversial decision loss, outboxes Chuvalo, and has Bonavena timid and boxing off the backfoot from outside.


----------



## jorodz

Klompton said:


> The Henry Cooper 2, Bonavena 1, and Chuvalo fights all show what a a professional, well rounded fighter he was. He was past his best in all of those with the possible exception of the Cooper bout. Yet, he blows Cooper out of the water to avenge ane arlier controversial decision loss, outboxes Chuvalo, and has Bonavena timid and boxing off the backfoot from outside.


thanks klomp:cheers


----------



## Ivan Drago

Louis is a beast in this fight, Baer was open to the left hook all fight and in the third Louis threw 4 (i think) in a row to knock him down it was a thing of beauty.


----------



## Klompton

Tommy Burns Vs. Gunner Moir: Call me crazy but I love watching Burns fight. He had a nice, fairly modern, aggressive style, a huge heart, good power (particularly for his size), and generally knew how to handle himself. Moir was nothing special but if you like watching beatings this is a good one. By the end of the fight Moir is punch drunk, covered in blood, and his features are rearranged. I would have loved to have seen a fight between Burns and Ketchel, Papke, or Langford.


----------



## Flea Man

Klompton said:


> Tommy Burns Vs. Gunner Moir: Call me crazy but I love watching Burns fight. He had a nice, fairly modern, aggressive style, a huge heart, good power (particularly for his size), and generally knew how to handle himself. Moir was nothing special but if you like watching beatings this is a good one. By the end of the fight Moir is punch drunk, covered in blood, and his features are rearranged. I would have loved to have seen a fight between Burns and Ketchel, Papke, or Langford.


Love Burns' right hand.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Curtis Cokes thinks Floyd would have been good in any era.
> In fact, he rates Floyd as the #33 welterweight of all time


Have you seen the almost totally forgotten Pat Barrett, LR?

Explosive puncher with excellent handspeed.

No Pacquiao featherfistedness - Black Flash would have brutally crushed Rios.:yep


----------



## tommygun711

I've been watching a lot of Gabriel Ruelas - in paticular the Jimmy Garcia tragedy, the close first fight against Nelson, & the Leija fight.

At his best, he was an absolute tornado, was incredibly strong at his weight and hit like a fucking truck. He did occasionally get wild but was usually defensively sound. Probably best known for that war against Gatti but he was a completely different animal even a few years before that.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Have you seen the almost totally forgotten Pat Barrett, LR?
> 
> Explosive puncher with excellent handspeed.
> 
> No Pacquiao featherfistedness - Black Flash would have brutally crushed Rios.:yep


Will check him out.


----------



## Sweet Pea

I'll vouch for Barrett as well. He may not have made it as a world class fighter due to dedication issues, but he laid men out like Foster and Jackson did.


----------



## LittleRed

Sweet Pea said:


> I'll vouch for Barrett as well. He may not have made it as a world class fighter due to dedication issues, but he laid men out like Foster and Jackson did.


Yeah spent some time on the tube. Tall, fast hands, explosive. Tags guys and they're out like dropped light bulbs.


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> I'll vouch for Barrett as well. He may not have made it as a world class fighter due to dedication issues, but he laid men out like Foster and Jackson did.


As did Wayne Alexander @LittleRed


----------



## Pedderrs

In the last two weeks I have watched the following;

Alexis Arguello vs Rey Tam, Aturo Leon, Rafael Limon, Vilomar Fernandez, Boza-Edwards, Ruben Castillo, Roberto Elizondo, and James Busceme.

Julio Cesar Chavez vs Meldrick Taylor I and Refugio Rojas.

James Toney vs Iran Barkley.

Jung Koo Chang vs German Torres II and Katsuo Tokashiki.

Sung-Kil Moon vs Gilberto Roman and Nana Konadu

Michael Nunn vs Dan Morgan (Bleurgh!)

Ray Mercer vs Bert Cooper, Tommy Morrison

Paul Hodkinson vs Marcos Villasana II, Steve Cruz


----------



## LittleRed

Pedderrs said:


> In the last two weeks I have watched the following;
> 
> Alexis Arguello vs Rey Tam, Aturo Leon, Rafael Limon, Vilomar Fernandez, Boza-Edwards, Ruben Castillo, Roberto Elizondo, and James Busceme.
> 
> Julio Cesar Chavez vs Meldrick Taylor I and Refugio Rojas.
> 
> James Toney vs Iran Barkley.
> 
> Jung Koo Chang vs German Torres II and Katsuo Tokashiki.
> 
> Sung-Kil Moon vs Gilberto Roman and Nana Konadu
> 
> Michael Nunn vs Dan Morgan (Bleurgh!)
> 
> Ray Mercer vs Bert Cooper, Tommy Morrison
> 
> Paul Hodkinson vs Marcos Villasana II, Steve Cruz


Who do you think won the torres-Chang fight.


----------



## Pedderrs

LittleRed said:


> Who do you think won the torres-Chang fight.


I thought Torres had limited success throughout. I wasn't impressed with him at all, and given his obvious lack of natural ability I'd have expected Chang to have landed with more regularity to win comfortably. There was a pretty big size differential though with Torres being a mountain of a man at that weight. But I thought if anyone deserved to get the nod, it was Chang.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I thought Torres had limited success throughout. I wasn't impressed with him at all, and given his obvious lack of natural ability I'd have expected Chang to have landed with more regularity to win comfortably. There was a pretty big size differential though with Torres being a mountain of a man at that weight. But I thought if anyone deserved to get the nod, it was Chang.


One of Changs worst performances IMO. The 1st and 3rd Torres fights on the other hand are sublime.

Torres was fucking good though and one of the hardest hitters 112 and below in history. Check out the underrated classic with Eleoncio Mercedes.

Thoughts on Chang-Tokashiki? One of my favourite fights ever.

Boza Edwards Vs Elizondo is another forgotten classic :good


----------



## Michael

Random thought here, but Brandon Rio's chin has got to be one of the best we've seen in recent years right? I cant thing of anyone who was as nails hard as he was since Wayne Mccullough. When watching him fight against Pacquiao, I found it almost comical that Pacquiao was beating a rat tat tat on him all night with 5 and 6 punch combos at a time and he wasn't really hurting Rios that much at all (the sustained beating and the odd buzzing shot aside) There's no one in the world right now who could stand right in front of Pacquiao with a high guard and take hundreds of shots, and last more than 5 or 6 rounds. Cotto, Marquez, Hatton, Barrera, Morales etc couldn't. Just a piece of iron is Rio's.


----------



## Vic

Anyone suggest me a youtube fight that is not more than 30 minutes ?


----------



## Michael

Vic said:


> Anyone suggest me a youtube fight that is not more than 30 minutes ?


There's a shit load of good fights gone up recently on the WSB channel vic, if your interested:good

http://www.youtube.com/user/WorldSeriesBoxing/videos


----------



## Vic

Sportofkings said:


> There's a shit load of good fights gone up recently on the WSB channel vic, if your interested:good
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/WorldSeriesBoxing/videos


I am, thank you for that Sportofk.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Torres was fucking good though and one of the hardest hitters 112 and below in history.


G.Torres = J.L.Castillo = J.L.Ramirez = same level

Only Torres fought better opposition.:yep

And was the harder puncher.

And was better.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> G.Torres = J.L.Castillo = J.L.Ramirez = same level
> 
> Only Torres fought better opposition.:yep
> 
> And was the harder puncher.
> 
> And was better.


:yep


----------



## Pedderrs

I'm watching Canto vs Furesawa.

Canto is so slick it's starting to make my eyes water. It would have been unfair if this guy could hit. Totally unfair.


----------



## jorodz

Pedderrs said:


> I'm watching Canto vs Furesawa.
> 
> Canto is so slick it's starting to make my eyes water. It would have been unfair if this guy could hit. Totally unfair.


you almost think there's a cosmic balance giving he, pep and locche feather fists...and giving whitaker a crippling coke addiction.


----------



## Pedderrs

jorodz said:


> you almost think there's a cosmic balance giving he, pep and locche feather fists...and giving whitaker a crippling coke addiction.


:lol: I would have petitioned for Canto to have been banned from fighting other Flyweights if he had knockout power. He'd have to mix it up with the Bantamweights just to make it fair.


----------



## jorodz

Pedderrs said:


> :lol: I would have petitioned for Canto to have been banned from fighting other Flyweights if he had knockout power. He'd have to mix it up with the Bantamweights just to make it fair.


canto with a decent punch vs jofre? greatest fight ever?


----------



## Sweet Pea

Canto was very, very small. Let's not forget that. Also, legitimate punching power likely would've tweaked his style a good bit. 

Torres was a dangerous fighter, about on a par with Ramirez in a pound for pound sense. I think Castillo was a bit better than either, though. Not quite as taken with Torres as you guys. I couldn't see Castillo getting the kind of boxing lesson Ramirez got against many of his opponents, least of all someone like Ray Mancini. He was better than either at cutting down the ring. Even a Zapata like fighter at Lightweight (don't think there's ever been one, to be honest), probably wouldn't have dealt with Castillo the same way he did Torres. Those guys were just so damn slow, whereas Castillo (while not fast) was sharper and more technically proficient.

But I know how you guys love your niche fighters. So I'll digress.


----------



## tommygun711

Really classy performance by Buchanan, his jab is laser sharp as always and he intelligently applies pressure & breaks down Cullen. After awhile he really didn't have any respect for Cullen's shots and he felt like he had the power to take him out which he did. Buchanan gets underrated quite a bit & doesn't get the appreciation he deserves. He was a Sweet Scientist.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Jose Luis Ramirez was definitely a fortunate fighter in the amount of high profile fights he got himself into.

The kind of fighter you could easily imagine having a mark kaylor, Robbie Simms type career(or even worse given a lesser backing or more consistent division to contend with.the 80s lightweight scene didn't have a lot of depth as far as very good contenders\splinter champs goes imo.Lots of solid evenly matched fighters in entertaining bouts though.


----------



## jorodz

Bill Jincock said:


> Jose Luis Ramirez was definitely a fortunate fighter in the amount of high profile fights he got himself into.
> 
> The kind of fighter you could easily imagine having a mark kaylor, Robbie Simms type career(or even worse given a lesser backing or more consistent division to contend with.the 80s lightweight scene didn't have a lot of depth as far as very good contenders\splinter champs goes imo.Lots of solid evenly matched fighters in entertaining bouts though.


he was awkward, heavy handed and mexican. and yes, quite fortunate. prolific record but never saw much special


----------



## Bill Jincock

.


----------



## Bill Jincock

He wasn't really any better than someone like Barkley as far as "solid fighter with loads of promotional weight behind him gets into lots of big fights" territory goes imo, yet does often seem to have had a lot more respect than that.More respect than someone like Mancini as well, which is totally unfair.

then again maybe i'm looking at things from an outdated perspective.


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> Canto was very, very small. Let's not forget that. Also, legitimate punching power likely would've tweaked his style a good bit.
> 
> Torres was a dangerous fighter, about on a par with Ramirez in a pound for pound sense. I think Castillo was a bit better than either, though. Not quite as taken with Torres as you guys. I couldn't see Castillo getting the kind of boxing lesson Ramirez got against many of his opponents, least of all someone like Ray Mancini. He was better than either at cutting down the ring. Even a Zapata like fighter at Lightweight (don't think there's ever been one, to be honest), probably wouldn't have dealt with Castillo the same way he did Torres. Those guys were just so damn slow, whereas Castillo (while not fast) was sharper and more technically proficient.
> 
> But I know how you guys love your niche fighters. So I'll digress.


All fair. But Ramirez-Arguello is better than Castillo ever looked IMO


----------



## jorodz

Cotto-torres >>> castillo-corrales


----------



## RagingB(_)LL

Eder Jofre W15 Jose Legra

Legra: Rds 1,2,3(10-8),7,8,10,12,14,15 (Legra deducted a point in rds 5&15, BS calls both of them imho)
Jofre" Rds 4,5,6,9,11,13

I just finished watching this fight and it was a clear win for Legra in my eyes. His movement throughout the fight gave Eder all kinds of problems and he reminded me of a mix between a prime Ali and Angel Robinson Garcia, Ali because of his foot speed and the way he moved/glided around the ring and Garcia for his identical habit of tapping his gloves together before and after unleashing a combination and keeping his hands at waist level. 

Legra clearly won the first three rounds and dropped Eder in the 3rd with a wide, looping right hand that got around Eder`s tight guard, it staggered him and made him fall backwards into the ropes in his own corner before falling down to his knees and then the bell rang as he hit the canvas. However Jofre rebounded from his 3rd round knockdown with his best round of the fight in the 4th by landing several powerful overhand rights on Legra which wobbled him and had him holding on and tying up Jofre to avoid hitting the canvas himself. 

Jofre kept up the pressure through rounds 5 and 6 and Legra was deducted a point in the 5th for use of his head which was a BS call in my opinion by the referee. Rounds 7 & 8 while close rounds I gave to Legra because he landed the more meaningful punches and Eder`s work did not look very effective, he bounced back in the 9th round but it seemed to me that Legra was taking a breather in this round allowing Jofre to outwork him. Round 10 was a clear round for Legra who landed the better punches in my eyes and did the better work, while round 11 was a very close round in which I gave Eder the benefit of the doubt and awarded him the frame.

Round 12 was yet again a clear round for Legra who landed the more meaningful punches on a somewhat frustrated Jofre who kept trying to land that overhand right but more often than not it came up short of the mark time and again. Round 13 was another close round but Eder did succeed in landing some good punches and I thought he did the slightly better work throughout so I scored it for him. Rounds 14 & 15 however were all Legra in my opinion, especially the 14th where he came out like a whirlwind and smothered Jofre with volume and combination punching and then crowded him in close to not allow him any room to maneuver on a tiring Jofre.

Round 15 was more of the same but Jofre fought with a sense of urgency and tried his best to keep up and land something meaningful but he came up short, the referee did deduct a point from Legra however for either use of the head or holding, I couldn`t tell but either way it was a dubious call to say the least and I can`t say I agree with it or the first point deduction in round 5 either. All in all it was a good fight but Eder did look old and he was fortunate to get the decision even though he put up a good fight, Legra`s movement though was simply too much for his old legs and he couldn`t land anything of any real significance throughout the fight as a result.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Legra was a pimp.I think he sometimes gets sold a bit short in comparison to Marcel, as far as speedy feathers of that era go.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> Legra was a pimp.I think he sometimes gets sold a bit short in comparison to Marcel, as far as speedy feathers of that era go.


He was shit hot and absolutely that good. I haven't scored the Jofre fight yet but felt Legra was getting the better of it. Will need to rewatch it and give it a proper look.


----------



## Sweet Pea

I have a vision that Legra will soon be one of the patron saints of the forum.


----------



## LittleRed

jorodz said:


> Cotto-torres >>> castillo-corrales


I think that's the wrong torres.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> I think that's the wrong torres.


:lol: it is. just saw jose luis castillo earlier and felt like stirring up shit


----------



## Sweet Pea

I feel like Zamora really had all the tools to be one of the great action fighters. Apart from the fact that he never really had any extended stay as a world class fighter I'd say he was:


----------



## tommygun711

'

What a crazy fucking fight, you can tell these fuckers don't like eachother at all. For all of Barkley's short comings he was one exciting fighter to watch and always went to war every time he fought. His flaws made him an exciting fighter to watch. With Barkley you always got your money's worth. Barkley just went balls out and stopped his man.



jorodz said:


> Cotto-torres >>> castillo-corrales


:huh Says who?

Also if Torres had stamina/consistency he could have beaten Cotto.


----------



## Lester1583

Legra demands justice!

Legra - Famechon:





How did you score it?


----------



## sweet_scientist

Sweet Pea said:


> Canto was very, very small. Let's not forget that. Also, legitimate punching power likely would've tweaked his style a good bit.
> 
> Torres was a dangerous fighter, about on a par with Ramirez in a pound for pound sense. I think Castillo was a bit better than either, though. Not quite as taken with Torres as you guys. *I couldn't see Castillo getting the kind of boxing lesson Ramirez got against many of his opponents*, least of all someone like Ray Mancini. He was better than either at cutting down the ring. Even a Zapata like fighter at Lightweight (don't think there's ever been one, to be honest), probably wouldn't have dealt with Castillo the same way he did Torres. Those guys were just so damn slow, whereas Castillo (while not fast) was sharper and more technically proficient.
> 
> But I know how you guys love your niche fighters. So I'll digress.


Couldn't really see Castillo arguably edging Arguello after 10 rounds or Ramirez getting stopped by Corrales either though..

Castillo was the more well rounded of course, and didn't produce the embarrassing performances Ramirez did against Mancini and Camacho.


----------



## sweet_scientist

The Famechon fight could have gone either way. A more neutral setting and Legra gets the credit for a few of those knockdowns.

Nice to hear your report on the Jofre-Legra fight RB.


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> I have a vision that Legra will soon be one of the patron saints of the forum.


He gets a lot of credit already. I think both Winstone fights are on youtube as well.

Has the Saldivar fight surfaced?


----------



## LittleRed

Sweet Pea said:


> I have a vision that Legra will soon be one of the patron saints of the forum.


I'm already convinced that he is more skilled than any champion of the past 20 years.


----------



## jorodz

@Jdempsey85 @Flea Man just watched Limon-Chacon 4...

Wow...I'm still in shock. This is probably number 3 behind Gatti-Ward 1 and Ali-Frazier 3. It was spellbinding.

CHACON LIMON
9 10
10 10	holy shit what a round...
8 10
9 10
10 9
10 9
9 10
10 9
10 8
10 10
9 10
10 9
10 9
10 8
10 8

144 139

Round 2 was probably the second greatest round of all time, just absolutely staggering. There really isn't anything I can say about this fight. If you're like me and haven't watched it DO IT NOW. The 14th has one of the best, most badass moments ever. Limon, getting destroyed and with likely a broken nose, calls on Chacon and drops his hands. Chacon, polite as ever, takes him up on it and DRILLS him repeatedly. Limon decides it's a good time to spit out his mouthpiece (presumably to breath better) and Chacon continues to pile it on. As if he's allergic to defense or he feels that the teeth he will lose are just slowing him down, Limon doesn't protect himself in the least. Are there trunks big enough to fit his balls?

It doesn't matter who won and the score is irrelevant. If you put people in the Hall of Fame for their wars, their battles and the entertainment they brought fans, put Bazooka Limon in immediately


----------



## Vic

Sweet Pea said:


> I have a vision that Legra will soon be one of the patron saints of the forum.


Hopefully.


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> I'm already convinced that he is more skilled than any champion of the past 20 years.


I like but please elaborate.


----------



## Jdempsey85

@jorodz Awesome aint it i want it in HD,now watch boza edwards vs chacon 1&2


----------



## Flea Man

Jdempsey85 said:


> @jorodz Awesome aint it i want it in HD,now watch boza edwards vs chacon 1&2


 @jorodz I second this and also recommend (highly in fact) Chacon-Danny Lopez, Boza-Limon, Limon-Navarette, and especially Boza-Navarette.


----------



## jorodz

Jdempsey85 said:


> @jorodz Awesome aint it i want it in HD,now watch boza edwards vs chacon 1&2


will do :cheers


----------



## jorodz

Flea Man said:


> @jorodz I second this and also recommend (highly in fact) Chacon-Danny Lopez, Boza-Limon, Limon-Navarette, and especially Boza-Navarette.


if it's got chacon AND lopez how could it not be a barnburner?! chacon was at the end of his career against limon and showed a ton of (offensive) skill. the schoolboy was fantastic at an OLD 31. can't wait to see him against lopez

as for boza and limon, just starting to dip my toe into their collections...i'm sure i'll be happy with what i see


----------



## Jdempsey85

Shame chacon vs narvarette didnt happen it would have completed the series.A incredible time to be a boxing fan,a week before chacon vs limon 4 ,gomez vs pintor happened!!

If leonard,duran etc were called the fab 4 what would u call chacon and his pals?


----------



## Flea Man

Jdempsey85 said:


> Shame chacon vs narvarette didnt happen it would have completed the series.A incredible time to be a boxing fan,a week before chacon vs limon 4 ,gomez vs pintor happened!!
> 
> If leonard,duran etc were called the fab 4 what would u call chacon and his pals?


I have already dubbed them The Ferocious Four many times 

Didn't Arguello Pryor happen a week before/later as well...what a month!


----------



## tommygun711

Recently been watching alot of *Mark Johnson* fights, he's grown on me quite a bit. Probably one of my favorite south paw fighters of all time. He's just one of those fighters that has every punch in the book, not to mention great speed, respectable power and solid defensive abilities.

Watching his fight against Enrique Orozco, early action is almost entirely controlled by Johnson. He throws every punch in the book & dominates Orozco in every way possible. Orozco is the stereotypical mexican in this fight, he soaked up basically all of Johnson's punishment and kept applying pressure.. As the fight goes on, Johnson gradually becomes less defensively responsible and more willing to fight with Orozco. At the end of round 8 Johnson finally started to tire (he was basically hitting a punching bag for 8 rounds) but still won the round by a fair margin. Orozco comes out guns blazing in round 9 and throws at least 8 punches which all land cleanly. For the first time in the fight he actually shook Johnson.

Great, entertaining fight. I recommend it for anyone that loves consistent action. Johnson goes toe to toe with Orozco even though he could have easily outboxed him from the opening bell if he wanted to. Credit to Orozco for not quiting or folding, it took 12 rounds of punishment to stop him on his feet (a barrage of 6 powerful uppercuts) and he was still complaining to the referee that he shouldn't have been stopped.

Also watched Mark Johnson destroy Arthur Johnson in 1 round who was a quality fighter for sure. The same Arthur Johnson that fought prime Johnny Tapia to a close 12 round decision. Johnson took him out in 1 like it was nothing.


----------



## RagingB(_)LL

Flea Man said:


> @*jorodz* I second this and also recommend (highly in fact) Chacon-Danny Lopez, Boza-Limon, Limon-Navarette, and especially Boza-Navarette.


 I would add Choi vs Limon and Navarette to that list as well, two terrific action fights. Choi was a helluva fighter and had one of the best right crosses I have ever seen, he was deadly accurate with it and threw it beautifully in combination while exhibiting a fine jab as well.

His Achilles heel however was his piss poor punch resistance and lack of durability, had he possessed half the toughness both mental and physical of a Limon, Chacon or Boza he could have gone very far and likely would have beaten all of them. He was battering Navarette and especially Limon all over the ring in those fights until getting caught and taken out.


----------



## Lester1583

tommygun711 said:


> Recently been watching alot of *Mark Johnson* fights, he's grown on me quite a bit. Probably one of my favorite south paw fighters of all time. He's just one of those fighters that has every punch in the book, not to mention great speed, respectable power and solid defensive abilities.


A bit flat-footed and liked to trade too much for my liking but yeah Too Sharp was very good.


----------



## Flea Man

RagingB(_)LL said:


> I would add Choi vs Limon and Navarette to that list as well, two terrific action fights. Choi was a helluva fighter and had one of the best right crosses I have ever seen, he was deadly accurate with it and threw it beautifully in combination while exhibiting a fine jab as well.
> 
> His Achilles heel however was his piss poor punch resistance and lack of durability, had he possessed half the toughness both mental and physical of a Limon, Chacon or Boza he could have gone very far and likely would have beaten all of them. He was battering Navarette and especially Limon all over the ring in those fights until getting caught and taken out.


Agreed and I uploaded Choi-Navarette to youtube for anyone that's interested.


----------



## tommygun711

Lester1583 said:


> A bit flat-footed and liked to trade too much for my liking but yeah Too Sharp was very good.


Yeah in some of his fights he could be a little flat footed but that was mostly when he wanted to straight up brawl with the guy. He had great boxing skills and when he wanted to he could have a chess match with the best of them. It was just that fighting heart within him.

Also you don't like it when fighters trade? I fucking love that shit, his resume is filled with action packed fights.


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> Yeah in some of his fights he could be a little flat footed but that was mostly when he wanted to straight up brawl with the guy. He had great boxing skills and when he wanted to he could have a chess match with the best of them. It was just that fighting heart within him.
> 
> Also you don't like it when fighters trade? I fucking love that shit, his resume is filled with action packed fights.


The best of them? More often than not at flyweight his competitoon was above average at best. It was only above the weight that he confirmed his brilliance and he allowed Montiel to jearly get back into the fight.


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> The best of them? More often than not at flyweight his competition was above average at best. It was only above the weight that he confirmed his brilliance and he allowed Montiel to jearly get back into the fight.


You can tell that he had true skills in his early fights before his style changed & he became more of a fighter. The way he sparked out Arthur Johnson is just a testament to what I'm talking about if you look at the way he set up that KO. He could do both equally good.

Sure he didn't prove it at the top level in his early fights but when he actually decided to box and not get crazy, you could tell he was very defensively sound and knew exactly what he was doing.


----------



## Sweet Pea

tommygun711 said:


> You can tell that he had true skills in his early fights before his style changed & he became more of a fighter.


It was pretty much the opposite. He was more of a fighter early on, although he always showed glimpses of excellent boxing skill. As he matured and stopped trying to walk fighters down/overpower them and relied more on what suited him he became a more effective fighter, which is what allowed him to fight effectively at higher weights.


----------



## tommygun711

Sweet Pea said:


> It was pretty much the opposite. He was more of a fighter early on, although he always showed glimpses of excellent boxing skill. As he matured and stopped trying to walk fighters down/overpower them and relied more on what suited him he became a more effective fighter, which is what allowed him to fight effectively at higher weights.


See I think he was always both. I see him outboxing all of these mexicans and eventually overwhelming them with volume. He eventually would just throw all boxing skills out the window and just overpower alot of these guys.

The way he tried to box Marquez the second time around didnt treat him so well did it? Had he fought with Marquez like he did the first time he could have smothered some of that punching power.


----------



## Sweet Pea

I suppose that's true. That's why I've never really felt comfortable analyzing hypothetical matchups involving him. That gung ho attitude could really fuck him up against the wrong fighter.

I'd say he was just flat out past it by the rematch, though.


----------



## Flea Man

Yeah first Rafa fight was his last hurrah


----------



## Lester1583

tommygun711 said:


> He had great boxing skills and when he wanted to he could have a chess match with the best of them. It was just that fighting heart within him.


Meldrick Taylor syndrome.



Sweet Pea said:


> That's why I've never really felt comfortable analyzing hypothetical matchups involving him. That gung ho attitude could really fuck him up against the wrong fighter.


Exactly.


----------



## Vic

I´m watching some Butterbean right now.....Oh, no, I´m ashamed to say !!:smile lol


----------



## Vic

Jdempsey85 said:


> @jorodz Awesome aint it i want it in HD,now watch boza edwards vs chacon 1&2


Damn, Chacon vs Boza and Limon in HD would be the coolest thing ever..


----------



## Vic

Anyone else here is a Katsuya Onizuka fan ?? That guy was so good!
I see that a lot of his footage has been uploeaded on youtube this year.....there is a guy that is pure action but super skilled at the same time!
I know @Drew101 is a fan too :cheers


----------



## Lester1583

I don't think Flea's life will ever be the same after this epic post:



LittleRed said:


> I think that Jung Koo-Chang vs Ricardo Lopez is more than a fantasy match up @Flea Man. It's a Rorschach test, a Rashomon like scenario in which your answer says as much about your views of life as of the fighters. I've been thinking about this for a while, maybe too long. It's haunted my dreams, weighed on my chest when I've laid down, belabored my breaths. Of course it is a silly question, but that's what makes it so valuable- it means so little that I can focus on what the question means rather than what the answer is.
> 
> On one hand you have Lopez. In some ways you can say that Lopez, little necromancer that he was summoning up the spirits of olden greats, nostaglic glimpses of supposedly lost techniques, was style over substance. This may be surprising at first glance especially because in an intellectual sense Lopez was all about fundamentals, doing all the things right. But just as perfect brush strokes do not make perfect art nor does great grammar make great literature, lopez's pluperfect technique blinding us to his flaws. Whether he was useless on the inside or merely not up to his own high standards is debatable; I think that Lopez realized that, like Ali before him it was to his benefit to limit the engagement to his comfort zone. And against the type of opposition he faced he could. Yet when someone was good enough to get inside (see Rosendo Alvarez and Zepeda), in a real sense good enough to fight on that level Lopez didn't look like Lopez anymore. So when I say that Lopez was style over substance I mean this- Lopez is one of those whose reputation is based on how good he looked, how clean and fluidly he punched, but is it possible that that is a simple reflection of the lack of talent that he faced, beating down men in a weal division. If you pick Lopez you are picking aesthetics, picking your eyes.
> 
> Chang on the other hand, mutable, dynamic, funky Chang looks damned impressive on film but his greatness is based on depth. Chang fought solid versions of every type of guy you can fight- big punchers, busy swarmers, smooth boxers, southpaws, big men, little men, young and old. Whereas lopez built himself up slowly, learning at a reasonable pace, chang exploded, a prodigy, his skills seemingly more innate than lopez's, certainly less textbook, the switch hitting, the chord pull feints. When Lopez won, he won beautiful, clean while Chang was a master of winning ugly, a not particularly hard puncher with decent pop, who flung himself at his opponents punching, clinching, mauling, tweaking. He reigned for a long time (but not as long as Lopez) and made many defenses (but not as many as Lopez) but he did so in a division so much deeper than Lopez that the comparison is almost irrelevant. But so far I have compared Chang to Lopez without considering Chang himself. Maybe loving chang is a hipsterish choice, that ubiquitous 21st century insult, but there is so much to love and fuck that nonsense mang. He was great, even if you had to pay close attention to see the brilliance, even if it was subtle. You could reasonably argue that Chang has a half dozen victories more impressive, on paper, than Lopez's best win. That is a an almost insurmountable gap. It is the difference between being the best actor in Austin Texas and being the best actor in Los Angeles. To pick Lopez when viewed purely logically against a man both more proven and a stylistic foil seems sophistry. To pick Chang is to pick results.
> 
> Yet are results all that matter? Greb has a resume so deep and vast it beggars belief; yet many refuse to list him as the best fighter of all time because he has nothing intangible he is all evidence, his name brings forth no emotions nor rememberances. They are not that far apart; Lopez has some solid wins, and Chang some obvious wow (more wow than I give him credit for here) but they are on different ends of the spectrum. I don't know how to finish this Flea but I do know I have made up my mind.


The Immortal One approves it:


----------



## Flea Man

Considering how Alvarezs right hand gave Lopez hassle Chang would drub him. Only a past it Chang going to the wire with Isidro Perez gives Lopez any kind of argument.


----------



## Flea Man

Did Littlered actually ever write that? If so, when and where?


----------



## Drew101

Vic said:


> Anyone else here is a Katsuya Onizuka fan ?? That guy was so good!
> I see that a lot of his footage has been uploeaded on youtube this year.....there is a guy that is pure action but super skilled at the same time!
> I know @Drew101 is a fan too :cheers


Indeed. :good

Lee-Onizuka is one of the best fights of the 90's.


----------



## zadfrak

RagingB(_)LL said:


> I would add Choi vs Limon and Navarette to that list as well, two terrific action fights. Choi was a helluva fighter and had one of the best right crosses I have ever seen, he was deadly accurate with it and threw it beautifully in combination while exhibiting a fine jab as well.
> 
> His Achilles heel however was his piss poor punch resistance and lack of durability, had he possessed half the toughness both mental and physical of a Limon, Chacon or Boza he could have gone very far and likely would have beaten all of them. He was battering Navarette and especially Limon all over the ring in those fights until getting caught and taken out.


agreed.

That straight right reminded me of prime Wlad Klitschko's--right down the pipe and un telegraphed. How many times did he hit Limon clean with that anyway? How many guys are taking that punch clean? What a set of whiskers. And what a tough mental makeup to take those kinds of punches and not alter things 1 iota. Most guys back off somewhat when tagged. Not that Limon.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> I don't think Flea's life will ever be the same after this epic post:
> 
> The Immortal One approves it:


I had one on Khaosai vs God, but it came down to this. There are atheists in the world. Everyone believes in Khaosai.


----------



## Lester1583

The more I watch Gavilan the more I question Hearns' invincibility at 147.

The more I watch LMR, Griffith and Colin Jones the louder I laugh at Pac&Floyd as world-class welters.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> The more I watch Gavilan the more I question Hearns' invincibility at 147.
> 
> The more I watch LMR, Griffith and Colin Jones the louder I laugh at Pac&Floyd as world-class welters.


I've always said Gavilan would be best welter before Hearns to beat him. LMR too.

You seen my latest uploads? Shirai-Marino II is a great bit of footage.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> You seen my latest uploads? Shirai-Marino II is a great bit of footage.


No. Will definitely check Shirai out.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Shirai-Marino II is a great bit of footage.


Indeed it is.

Shirai is not bad at all. Pretty good actually.

Good feet, nice right hand, decent jab, could fight on the inside a bit too.

The first two knockdowns looked very aesthetically pleasing.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Anyone here watch Murata's fight? Please give analysis!!!!

Here's a shit but watcheable link:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x183cn2_2013-12-06-ryota-murata-vs-dave-peterson-no-audio_sport


----------



## Pedderrs

I watched Whitaker-Nelson last night. 

A really impressive display from Whitaker considering the effort put in by Nelson, who tried everything in his power to win the fight. He may have landed the odd shot, but for most part it was Whitaker jabbing, circling, and throwing in some lovely hooks to the body at close to mid range. A dominant performance against a very good, very determined opponent in Azumah Nelson.


----------



## jorodz

Pedderrs said:


> I watched Whitaker-Nelson last night.
> 
> A really impressive display from Whitaker considering the effort put in by Nelson, who tried everything in his power to win the fight. He may have landed the odd shot, but for most part it was Whitaker jabbing, circling, and throwing in some lovely hooks to the body at close to mid range. A dominant performance against a very good, very determined opponent in Azumah Nelson.


i've lumped that in with his greatest performances. despite zumah moving up in weight, he was still a hall of fame level fighter at or near his prime and was COMPLETELY shut down


----------



## tommygun711

Nelson did everything in his power to try to beat Whitaker, Whitaker just had too much movement and was too sharp defensively for Azumah to really get to him and hurt Whitaker.


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> Nelson did everything in his power to try to beat Whitaker, Whitaker just had too much movement and was too sharp defensively for Azumah to really get to him and hurt Whitaker.


whose the best lightweight you think that Azumah could have taken?


----------



## tommygun711

jorodz said:


> whose the best lightweight you think that Azumah could have taken?


At that point of time or are we talking all time great lightweights?


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> At that point of time or are we talking all time great lightweights?


all time.


----------



## tommygun711

jorodz said:


> all time.


Well, its hard to say because I think Azumah would be a hard match for anyone given how tough and relentless he was.

Buchanan wouldve beaten him but it would go all 12/15 rounds and buchanan would struggle to hurt Azumah. When it comes down to it Buchanan has too much movement but I think Azumah would have his moments.

Against more stationary guys, I think Azumah would have more success.

He wouldve beaten prime Rosario in a firefight, Corrales, Castillo..

He cetainly wouldve given prime Arguello a tough fight. against Arguello he would be rushing in against a hard puncher and could get stopped and hurt that way. On the other hand he could smother Arguello's power and have success with his awkward punches. Im not sure.

Camacho would get beat imo. Lacks the power to keep Nelson off and he would lose a decison.


----------



## Flea Man

Nelson had some shocking performances. He would get mullered against Arguello.

Jim Watt would beat Nelson.


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> Well, its hard to say because I think Azumah would be a hard match for anyone given how tough and relentless he was.
> 
> Buchanan wouldve beaten him but it would go all 12/15 rounds and buchanan would struggle to hurt Azumah. When it comes down to it Buchanan has too much movement but I think Azumah would have his moments.
> 
> Against more stationary guys, I think Azumah would have more success.
> 
> He wouldve beaten prime Rosario in a firefight, Corrales, Castillo..
> 
> He cetainly wouldve given prime Arguello a tough fight. against Arguello he would be rushing in against a hard puncher and could get stopped and hurt that way. On the other hand he could smother Arguello's power and have success with his awkward punches. Im not sure.
> 
> Camacho would get beat imo. Lacks the power to keep Nelson off and he would lose a decison.


some risky picks there sir, i like it. i am very reluctant to pick against camacho at 135...he was that damn good at his best (well his best was 130 but still). Arguello is the type of pinpoint accurate puncher i don't think zumah would thrive against. This isn't someone who will give him a lot of timing and counterpunching opportunities but as you said he could smother him. i'd heavily favour buchanan as well though rosario is a winnable fight for him. i've never thought much of castillo or corrales and zumah likely schools both


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> Nelson had some shocking performances. He would get mullered against Arguello.
> 
> Jim Watt would beat Nelson.


He sure did. I cant really just count Nelson out against anyone unless they are supremely elite/ATG fighters.

Arguello probably does knock him out but im just saying Nelson presents the kind of toughness to make Arguello uncomfortable. I would like to see it. Arguello would not be able to hang with Nelson on the inside, just saying.

I agree with Watt although he is a bit negative for my liking.. I also hate him as a commenator. That movement and jab would pose problems for Nelson though.

Someone like Ike Williams would absolutely murk Azumah imo.



jorodz said:


> some risky picks there sir, i like it. i am very reluctant to pick against camacho at 135...he was that damn good at his best (well his best was 130 but still). Arguello is the type of pinpoint accurate puncher i don't think zumah would thrive against. This isn't someone who will give him a lot of timing and counterpunching opportunities but as you said he could smother him. i'd heavily favour buchanan as well though rosario is a winnable fight for him. i've never thought much of castillo or corrales and zumah likely schools both


Good stuff, I like his chances against Camacho because I don't think Nelson would respect his power.. certainly winnable for for Camacho though.

Heres a fun fight: Pacquiao vs Nelson at lightweight. Great fight. Pac should be able to outspeed him but Nelson would rough him up.


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> He sure did. I cant really just count Nelson out against anyone unless they are supremely elite/ATG fighters.
> 
> Arguello probably does knock him out but im just saying Nelson presents the kind of toughness to make Arguello uncomfortable. I would like to see it. Arguello would not be able to hang with Nelson on the inside, just saying.
> 
> I agree with Watt although he is a bit negative for my liking.. I also hate him as a commenator. That movement and jab would pose problems for Nelson though.
> 
> Someone like Ike Williams would absolutely murk Azumah imo.
> 
> Good stuff, I like his chances against Camacho because I don't think Nelson would respect his power.. certainly winnable for for Camacho though.
> 
> Heres a fun fight: Pacquiao vs Nelson at lightweight. Great fight. Pac should be able to outspeed him but Nelson would rough him up.


couple of years ago, ring did an issue pitting pac against greats from various divisions. they said pac would stand absolutely no chance against nelson (at 126 or 130 can't remember) and would get counterpunched and knocked out. Almost the same prediction they gave for nelson-olivares in their "greatest fights that never happened"


----------



## tommygun711

jorodz said:


> couple of years ago, ring did an issue pitting pac against greats from various divisions. they said pac would stand absolutely no chance against nelson (at 126 or 130 can't remember) and would get counterpunched and knocked out. Almost the same prediction they gave for nelson-olivares in their "greatest fights that never happened"


Im not sure that is accurate lol. Pac would have a chance for sure. What do you think?


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> Im not sure that is accurate lol. Pac would have a chance for sure. What do you think?


i think that ring is a GREAT magazine that occasionally drops the ball :huh this was also in the middle of pac's lightweight tear when he may have been at his most OVERrated to boot. At 130, i see pac nicking nelson; pac was far faster and came at far different angles than most of nelson's opponents. He would not pick pac apart like he did fenech and i could see pac overwhelming nelson over 12, winning the last few rounds clear. Over 15, i'm not so confident but we have no idea what pac's stamina would be...he's never shown indications of fading from what i've seen.

nelson against olivares is more ridiculous. they painted olivares as a one-dimensional slugger who would be fodder for nelson. just a very surface understanding of olivares and no real analysis.


----------



## LittleRed

Nelsomn was tough but not iron. Sanchez floored and stopped him and LaPorte had him in a bad way


----------



## Bill Jincock

oi, Watt would get smashed and cut to a pulp against Nelson, Flea:yep...He'd still be standing at the end though.

Against fighters of that level i think it's the other jabbing stylists that Watt could frustrate and do well again.Someone really bringing the pressure and offense like Nelson would be too much for Jim's Glacial reflexes and minimalist offence.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> oi, Watt would get smashed and cut to a pulp against Nelson, Flea:yep...He'd still be standing at the end though.
> 
> Against fighters of that level i think it's the other jabbing stylists that Watt could frustrate and do well again.Someone really bringing the pressure and offense like Nelson would be too much for Jim's Glacial reflexes and minimalist offence.


I know, was gonna' argue the toss for the fun of it but no point against you ;-) Was either Watt or Haugen I wqs gonna' go for


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Nelsomn was tough but not iron. Sanchez floored and stopped him and LaPorte had him in a bad way


Martinez hurt him. And sometimes Nelson phoned it in.


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> He sure did. I cant really just count Nelson out against anyone unless they are supremely elite/ATG fighters.
> 
> Arguello probably does knock him out but im just saying Nelson presents the kind of toughness to make Arguello uncomfortable. I would like to see it. Arguello would not be able to hang with Nelson on the inside, just saying.
> 
> I agree with Watt although he is a bit negative for my liking.. I also hate him as a commenator. That movement and jab would pose problems for Nelson though.
> 
> Someone like Ike Williams would absolutely murk Azumah imo.
> 
> Good stuff, I like his chances against Camacho because I don't think Nelson would respect his power.. certainly winnable for for Camacho though.
> 
> Heres a fun fight: Pacquiao vs Nelson at lightweight. Great fight. Pac should be able to outspeed him but Nelson would rough him up.


Arguello was a savage in close! It's movement that troubled Arguello, anyone going at him would find he was a master of short punches and of making room for his longer ones. Nelson has nothing for him, though like Boza, Limon, Mancini he'd give it a good go.

Keep seeing you making criticisms of certain aspects of Arguellos game that are a bit off to be honest.


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> Arguello was a savage in close! It's movement that troubled Arguello, anyone going at him would find he was a master of short punches and of making room for his longer ones. Nelson has nothing for him, though like Boza, Limon, Mancini he'd give it a good go.
> 
> Keep seeing you making criticisms of certain aspects of Arguellos game* that are a bit off to be honest*.












m8 I love Arguello. I am not criticizing him. Arguello was more effective when he had full punching room and could extend his right hand, FACT. That way he had more power. He thoroughly got outpunched and outworked by Pryor on the inside (yes, Pryor was an animal & Arguello was past prime but the fact still remains)

Nelson certainly could rough up Arguello and force his way on the inside, it's the only way he'd have a chance at all dude. Why stay on the outside and try to box Arguello and risk getting hit full blast with his power shots? Nelson did not have the movement to pull that off like Ramirez did.

Like I said, Nelson gets outgunned here though, he would get stopped by Arguello and would probably fail the shorten the distance.. I'm just saying Nelson could possibly have a chance.


----------



## jorodz

watching Rigondeaux's latest masterpiece. If Pep or Locche were around today, imagine how the internet would shit on them. Rigo did absolutely phenomenal against a top opponent. He hit often, with tremendous accuracy and was barely tagged.


----------



## Lester1583

jorodz said:


> watching Rigondeaux's latest masterpiece.





Hands of Iron said:


> Lay Reonard blatantly ducked Colin Jones. But who can blame him?


Rigo is the fighter of the year.

But he won't get any awards.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Martinez hurt him.


Azabache also beat him the first time they fought


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Azabache also beat him the first time they fought


One of Chavez's most underrated scalps IMO. Battered him.


----------



## Boxed Ears

LittleRed said:


> Nelsomn was tough but not iron. Sanchez floored and stopped him and LaPorte had him in a bad way


*iromn


----------



## LittleRed

Boxed Ears said:


> *iromn


Argh. Sometimes I misspell things. Like I type Joe Frazier was a one handed fighter when I mean Joe Frazier was a one hamnded fighter.


----------



## Lester1583

Marijan Benes - Luigi Minchillo is as great as it sounds.

A breathtaking masterpiece of technical boxing and defensive wizardry.

It's crystal clear why McCallum avoided Benes for years.

And some lunatics still question Kalule's undisputed greatness at light middle.

What nerve.


----------



## Pedderrs

Arguello put in his fair share of underwhelming performances; Fernandez, Ganigan, and Leon, etc. I wasn't overly impressed with him against Busceme and Castillo either. 

I don't think Arguello would be all that comfortable in a ring with Azumah Nelson. I'm not saying he loses, but he is not having an easy night.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Arguello put in his fair share of underwhelming performances; Fernandez, Ganigan, and Leon, etc. I wasn't overly impressed with him against Busceme and Castillo either.
> 
> I don't think Arguello would be all that comfortable in a ring with Azumah Nelson. I'm not saying he loses, but he is not having an easy night.


You found Ganigan an underwhelming performance?

Compare the struggles Arguello had with Castillo to the problems Sal Sanchez had with him and you find something out: Castillo was a bloody good operator.

How Vilomar Fernandez indicates any issues Nelson could cause Arguello I don't know. Yet Martinez might indicate Arguello would wipe the floor with Nelson.


----------



## dyna

Jake has such a pleasant style to watch, Carbajal too.
Also rest of the rounds on youtube next to the video

250 punches thrown by Matlala in the first 2 round according to the commentary


----------



## jorodz

holy shit! i just heckled compubox on twitter for their rigondeaux-agebeko numbers...they responded and were pissed


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Why did Carbajal ducked Lopez?
> I demand anwers!


Sometimes I wonder - is Fullmer-Basilio 1959 really the fight of the year?

It's not that this fight is not good enough, it's just that Ortega - Floro 2 happened in the same year.


----------



## Flea Man

jorodz said:


> holy shit! i just heckled compubox on twitter for their rigondeaux-agebeko numbers...they responded and were pissed


Elaborate please :think


----------



## Lester1583

Boxrec describes it as dull and boring
but I actually found Hanagata-Salavarria 1 kinda interesting in it's own way.

Almost no brawling but it's a pretty good very evenly contested technical chess-match with Salavarria countering every time Hanagata (good movement) jumped in with his punches.

Japanese fans didn't like the final decision one bit.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Boxrec describes it as dull and boring
> but I actually found Hanagata-Salavarria 1 kinda interesting in it's own way.
> 
> Almost no brawling but it's a pretty good very evenly contested technical chess-match with Salavarria countering every time Hanagata (good movement) jumped in with his punches.
> 
> Japanese fans didn't like the final decision one bit.


Excuse me? You mean their second fight, right?


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Excuse me? You mean their second fight, right?


No, the first fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Excuse me? You mean their second fight, right?


Just checked it again.

My bad - you are correct - it's the second one.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Just checked it again.
> 
> My bad - you are correct - it's the second fight.


Oh. But Phew.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Oh. But Phew.


After having refreshed my memory on Salavarria - outjabbing and completely outboxing a fighter like Erbito? Bus Station's greatness cannot be denied.

By the way, new Chitalada upload?

Will watch it later - Chitalada deserves some love - he was an excellent featherweight:hey


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> After having refreshed my memory on Salavarria - outjabbing and completely outboxing a fighter like Erbito? Bus Station's greatness cannot be denied.
> 
> By the way, new Chitalada upload?
> 
> Will watch it later - Chitalada deserves some love - he was an excellent featherweight:hey


Yep, the Bus outboxed the roider. Easily.

And yeah Sot was a big lad but he paid for it.


----------



## jorodz

jorodz said:


> holy shit! i just heckled compubox on twitter for their rigondeaux-agebeko numbers...they responded and were pissed


i thought they overestimated agebeko's punches. which is sad for someone that landed only 48 punches but I didn't count 4 clean punches per round. they responded that they were judging from ringside and i was at home so who the fuck was i? fair response but i don't think agebeko hit rigo anywhere near 50 times


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> roider


Betulio asked for it - he was a notorious PED user himself.

How else can you explain his victory over Cunto?


----------



## Flea Man

jorodz said:


> i thought they overestimated agebeko's punches. which is sad for someone that landed only 48 punches but I didn't count 4 clean punches per round. they responded that they were judging from ringside and i was at home so who the fuck was i? fair response but i don't think agebeko hit rigo anywhere near 50 times


Not very professional though


----------



## jorodz

Flea Man said:


> Not very professional though


well they didn't actually swear at me but i get the feeling they hear this shit A LOT. compubox is garbage and they're gonna get criticism


----------



## LittleRed

jorodz said:


> i thought they overestimated agebeko's punches. which is sad for someone that landed only 48 punches but I didn't count 4 clean punches per round. they responded that they were judging from ringside and i was at home so who the fuck was i? fair response but i don't think agebeko hit rigo anywhere near 50 times


You should tell them your someone with eyes, a trait they apparently lack.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> You should tell them your someone with eyes, a trait they apparently lack.


:lol:


----------



## LittleRed

Before flea Getz here I know it's you're. Autocorrect.


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Before flea Getz here I know it's you're. Autocorrect.


I noticed first time but knew you'd not have done it consciously.


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> I noticed first time but knew you'd not have done it consciously.


Hugs?


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Hugs?


Not necessary.


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> Not necessary.


Oh. This is awkward. Like Castellani-Fullmer AWKWARD.


----------



## tommygun711

Broner-De Leon

Round 1: PDL
Round 2: PDL
Round 3: PDL
Round 4: Broner/PDL, close round, make your pick.. I'll go with *Broner*
Round 5: Broner
Round 6: Broner
Round 7: Close round, Broner landed alot of quality eye catching shots, as did Ponce.. gonna go with Broner here based on volume but Ponce landed alot of hard counters too. *Broner's *round
Round 8: A bit of a nothing round, Broner didn't do anything at all and Ponce pinned him against the ropes and just outworked him.. I've noticed this is a big problem for Broner, getting outworked. *PDL's *round
Round 9: Another close round, great work from both guys but PDL outworked him again. Broner landed the cleaner shots, ie the right hands but PDL landed the volume. *PDL's *Round. 
Round 10: PDL landed more shots, great bodywork by PDL this round and even though Broner landed some significant right hands and tried hard to win the round, PDL took it. *PDL's round. *

PDL took rounds 1,2,3,8,9, & 10. Broner took 4,5,6, & 7. Close fight but PDL should've took the W. PDL won 96-94 imo basically because he outworked Broner and went to his body early. 
@turbotime u think Broner won this?


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Broner-De Leon
> 
> Round 1: PDL
> Round 2: PDL
> Round 3: PDL
> Round 4: Broner/PDL, close round, make your pick.. I'll go with *Broner*
> Round 5: Broner
> Round 6: Broner
> Round 7: Close round, Broner landed alot of quality eye catching shots, as did Ponce.. gonna go with Broner here based on volume but Ponce landed alot of hard counters too. *Broner's *round
> Round 8: A bit of a nothing round, Broner didn't do anything at all and Ponce pinned him against the ropes and just outworked him.. I've noticed this is a big problem for Broner, getting outworked. *PDL's *round
> Round 9: Another close round, great work from both guys but PDL outworked him again. Broner landed the cleaner shots, ie the right hands but PDL landed the volume. *PDL's *Round.
> Round 10: PDL landed more shots, great bodywork by PDL this round and even though Broner landed some significant right hands and tried hard to win the round, PDL took it. *PDL's round. *
> 
> PDL took rounds 1,2,3,8,9, & 10. Broner took 4,5,6, & 7. Close fight but PDL should've took the W. PDL won 96-94 imo basically because he outworked Broner and went to his body early.
> 
> @turbotime u think Broner won this?


Haven't watched in ages brother but on the night I had it PDL by a round or so? Boring fight, wish Broner would've opened up more


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Haven't watched in ages brother but on the night I had it PDL by a round or so? Boring fight, wish* Broner would've opened up more*


Main problem right there, he looked great in the moments he did open up but Ponce certainly outworked him.. Broner still has this problem imo. Paulie showed everyone Broner can still be outworked, even though I think Paulie definitely lost.

Someone that throws in high volume, with respectable power could seriously trouble Broner. Unfortunately I think Maidana will be outboxed.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Main problem right there, he looked great in the moments he did open up but Ponce certainly outworked him.. Broner still has this problem imo. Paulie showed everyone Broner can still be outworked, even though I think Paulie definitely lost.
> 
> Someone that throws in high volume, with respectable power could seriously trouble Broner. Unfortunately I think Maidana will be outboxed.


Not many busy southpaws for him to fight though, luckily :lol: I was surprised at how easily he shellacked DeMarco.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Not many busy southpaws for him to fight though, luckily :lol: I was surprised at how easily he shellacked DeMarco.


True. Whitaker would've tore his ass up. That left hook to the body is wide open for Maidana though.

I too was expecting DeMarco to do way better than he did. At least rough Broner up a little bit.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> True. Whitaker would've tore his ass up. That left hook to the body is wide open for Maidana though.
> 
> I too was expecting DeMarco to do way better than he did. At least rough Broner up a little bit.


Whitaker shuts out today's lightweights/lightwelters out and most welters out today with little trouble


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Chitalada - Kamishiro


Chitalada's jab is what Louis' jab supposed to be according to old-timers with their rose-tinted glasses - almost as powerful and punishing as the right hand.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Chitalada's jab is what Louis' jab supposed to be according to old-timers with their rose-tinted glasses - almost as powerful and punishing as the right hand.


I'll be looking to find out if Sot was a southpaw when a Nak Muay Thai.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> We have only 35 Chambers. There is no 36. I know that but; I want to create a Chamber. Oh and what would that be?
> 
> The 36th Chamber of Shaolin!


Chino!!!:ibutt


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Chino!!!:ibutt


That was unexpected. @Vic I demand a new avi!


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> That was unexpected.


Big fan of Maidana.

Always been. Seen all of his fights.

Gotta admit - I didn't believe he could pull it off.

But never underestimate the iron will of the Shaolin Warriaaaaaaaah!:ibutt


----------



## Pedderrs

Arguably the worst decision Gerry Penalosa was subjected to during his long career. Cho ran away the whole fight, threw the occasional flurry which rarely scored, and he somehow was awarded a Split Decision. Gerry outworked him, outlanded him, and pushed the whole fight. Horrible decision. Horrible.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Big fan of Maidana.
> 
> Always been. Seen all of his fights.
> 
> Gotta admit - I didn't believe he could pull it off.
> 
> But never underestimate the iron will of the Shaolin Warriaaaaaaaah!:ibutt


He beat the shit outta Broner. Maybe this will get him Money.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> He beat the shit outta Broner. Maybe this will get him Money.


as a frequent broner supporter, i'm willing to get some shit for this...REALLY didn't see it coming


----------



## LittleRed

jorodz said:


> as a frequent broner supporter, i'm willing to get some shit for this...REALLY didn't see it coming


I was surprised. But give broner a little credit for not giving up. He fought like hell for his title.


----------



## jorodz

LittleRed said:


> I was surprised. But give broner a little credit for not giving up. He fought like hell for his title.


this will be better for him in the long run if he doesnt go hamed and retire


----------



## tommygun711

jorodz said:


> as a frequent broner supporter, i'm willing to get some shit for this...REALLY didn't see it coming


I was happy as fuck when it happened.

Maidana is a fucking G for that shit. He did what the whole world wanted to happen to Broner.

Overhyped piece of shit.


----------



## jorodz

tommygun711 said:


> I was happy as fuck when it happened.
> 
> Maidana is a fucking G for that shit. He did what the whole world wanted to happen to Broner.
> 
> Overhyped piece of shit.


:bronesgoat:bronesgoat


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Chino!!!:ibutt





LittleRed said:


> That was unexpected. @Vic I demand a new avi!


Told ya
http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...y-Robinson-LOL&p=802287&viewfull=1#post802287
I had some funny moments in WBF today :smile:rofl


----------



## Vic

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...y-At-147-LBS!!&p=802444&viewfull=1#post802444

I was so happy when the fight started! In round 1 you knew that_ it was going to happen_ !!!!!! :bluesuit


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Maybe this will get him Money.


Hopefully not.

Maidana vs Thurman/Matthysse/Porter/Ji-Hoon Kim - much more interesting winnable fights.


----------



## The Wanderer

Lester1583 said:


> Hopefully not.
> 
> Maidana vs Thurman/Matthysse/Porter/Ji-Hoon Kim - much more interesting winnable fights.


I haven't seen much of Kim, but those first 3 are all fights with a lot of potential for excitement.

Can you imagine Maidana vs Provodnikov? :ibutt:lp


----------



## Lester1583

The Wanderer said:


> I haven't seen much of Kim


No amatuer experience, not much skills, defense - his face, all heart, all action.

Best fight - any fight.



The Wanderer said:


> Can you imagine Maidana vs Provodnikov? :ibutt:lp


A dream is all we have:verysad


----------



## Klompton

Floyd Patterson Vs. Levi Forte 1971. How in the hell did Forte go 10 rounds with Foreman?? Against Patterson he couldnt take a punch for anything. Patterson was in great shape for being so old but you could see he wasnt the same fighter in even this short bout.


----------



## jorodz

Klompton said:


> Floyd Patterson Vs. Levi Forte 1971. How in the hell did Forte go 10 rounds with Foreman?? Against Patterson he couldnt take a punch for anything. Patterson was in great shape for being so old but you could see he wasnt the same fighter in even this short bout.


haven't seen this one but i always found that floyd kept the sharpness and crispness in his punches well past his best


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Anyone know who this asian dude is? In those 16 seconds, he looks fucking awesome. Barry Robinson is going to train him @ControlIsFun


----------



## Lester1583

Mario Rodriguez & Takayama Katsunary need your love midget-lovers.

Non-stop action:


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Mario Rodriguez & Takayama Katsunary need your love midget-lovers.
> 
> Non-stop action:


Hmmm, seems interesting.


----------



## Flea Man

Fuck the Joyi conquerer! And Hekki Budler! Fuck 'em all to Hell!


----------



## Lester1583

Shik Kim makes Fenech look like Kevin Johnson.

Pure relentlessness.


----------



## jorodz

gonna watch broner get his ass kicked by maidana today. :broner


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

This guy was the most feared in amateurs..Khytrov's pro debut. First shot he lands with conviction and it's over. A beautiful left hook on the chin. Virtually everything he did land had a snap to it.


----------



## jorodz

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> This guy was the most feared in amateurs..Khytrov's pro debut. First shot he lands with conviction and it's over. A beautiful left hook on the chin. Virtually everything he did land had a snap to it.


first impressions, pretty damn good. obviously his offense is great: that is one stiff jab that he double up and used to the body. nice straight, powerful right hand that he always worked to the body and down the pipe, splitting dude's guard. But i was REALLY impressed with his relaxed defense. he put immediate distance when his opponent was coming back. he kept his hands up and bobbed and weaved with a nice rhythm. very very focused. when in close and taking offense back and he used his arms and elbows to avoid taking any real damage and even parried a jab well. good start


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

jorodz said:


> first impressions, pretty damn good. obviously his offense is great: that is one stiff jab that he double up and used to the body. nice straight, powerful right hand that he always worked to the body and down the pipe, splitting dude's guard. But i was REALLY impressed with his relaxed defense. *he put immediate distance when his opponent was coming back*. he kept his hands up and bobbed and weaved with a nice rhythm. very very focused. when in close and taking offense back and he used his arms and elbows to avoid taking any real damage and even parried a jab well. good start


Nice analysis. He does have good defense for his style, considering he's pretty flat footed too. In bold is what he's very good at, in the future you'll see him throw some good punches off the back foot too. 




At 7:06 onwards, you'll see him land a beautiful left hook like the one from his pro debut.

Khytrov's speciality is actually more so in his body punching too.


----------



## Lester1583

Always interesting how fighters' perception of things differs from a fan's perspective.

Apparently, Gans called Willie Fitzgerald his toughest opponent.


----------



## Klompton

Just watched Ron Lyle knocking out Duane Bobick in the amateurs and sparring with Ken Norton at Joe Frazier's gym. The sparrring with Norton was underwhelming. He was inexperienced and didnt have the confidence to press Norton like he could or should have (prime for prime I think Lyle would smashed Norton). He absolutely KILLED Bobick. Bobick was out cold for several minutes.


----------



## jorodz

Klompton said:


> Just watched Ron Lyle knocking out Duane Bobick in the amateurs and sparring with Ken Norton at Joe Frazier's gym. The sparrring with Norton was underwhelming. He was inexperienced and didnt have the confidence to press Norton like he could or should have (prime for prime I think Lyle would smashed Norton). He absolutely KILLED Bobick. Bobick was out cold for several minutes.


i never get tired of watching bobick gets his ass kicked


----------



## Flea Man

Klompton said:


> Just watched Ron Lyle knocking out Duane Bobick in the amateurs and sparring with Ken Norton at Joe Frazier's gym. The sparrring with Norton was underwhelming. He was inexperienced and didnt have the confidence to press Norton like he could or should have (prime for prime I think Lyle would smashed Norton). He absolutely KILLED Bobick. Bobick was out cold for several minutes.


That was Bobicks only stoppage loss in the ams before Stevenson IIRC. Would love to see it.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Been watching Dwight Braxton fights,what a fighter.Ive seen hundreds of fights,this week ive seen broner hump maidana,maidana hump broner and braxton hump johnny davis!

The james scott situation was bizarre,televised live from rawhay penitentiary!


----------



## Lester1583

Every time I watch Harada-Famechon 2 I convince myself that Harada is going to pull this one off.

Harada lost again today.

But someday...someday...


----------



## Pedderrs

Hiroshi Kawashima-Seung Koo Lee

Fantastic fight. Kawashima dominates most of the early and mid-rounds but then the exchanges heat up which results in Kawashima being knocked down and hurt badly by a left hand. Kawashima survives the onslaught and comes away with the decision. Some of the exchanges were fantastic. Entertaining fight.


----------



## jorodz

Watching some old amateur footage of Wlad Klitschko as part of the "Klitschko" documentary. He may be better now but holy fuck what an arsenal. had a tremendous 1-2-3 which has all but dissapeared. It's strange seeing him corner opponents and firing off left hook after left hook until the guy goes down, constantly shifting angles to create openings


----------



## Flea Man

Wlads best punch is his left hook. Shame it's a limited part of his arsenal nowadays.


----------



## jorodz

Flea Man said:


> Wlads best punch is his left hook. Shame it's a limited part of his arsenal nowadays.


the knockout of chambers is frightening and telling of what power he has


----------



## Flea Man

jorodz said:


> the knockout of chambers is frightening and telling of what power he has


Ray Austin as well.


----------



## jorodz

Flea Man said:


> Ray Austin as well.


:cheers


----------



## tommygun711

Garcia vs Matthysse 

1: Garcia
2: Matthysse
3: Garcia
4: Garcia
5: Matthysse 
6: Matthysse 
7: Garcia
8: Garcia
9: Garcia
10: Matthysse
11: 10-8 Garcia, was Matthysse's round before that the knockdown (extra point w/ knockdown)
12: 10-9 Matthysse 

7-5 Garcia with an extra point for the knockdown


----------



## Michael

jorodz said:


> Watching some old amateur footage of Wlad Klitschko as part of the "Klitschko" documentary. He may be better now but holy fuck what an arsenal. had a tremendous 1-2-3 which has all but dissapeared. It's strange seeing him corner opponents and firing off left hook after left hook until the guy goes down, constantly shifting angles to create openings


If only Wlad had a chin, he'd have been one of the most exciting, gung ho heavyweights we've seen for years, im almost certain of it. Of course it all had to change for him, because he was getting put on his back routinely. But while Steward gave him anew look which gave his opponents few openings, its made him ultra cautious and horrible to watch. Just watch his fight with Ray Mercer back in 2002 to see what an offensive animal Wlad was back in the day.


----------



## jorodz

Sportofkings said:


> If only Wlad had a chin, he'd have been one of the most exciting, gung ho heavyweights we've seen for years, im almost certain of it. Of course it all had to change for him, because he was getting put on his back routinely. But while Steward gave him anew look which gave his opponents few openings, its made him ultra cautious and horrible to watch. *Just watch his fight with Ray Mercer back in 2002 to see what an offensive animal Wlad was back in the day*.


watched that fight live and made me a fan for life. course he fights NOTHING like that anymore as you said


----------



## Lester1583

Been watching some Rosendo Alvarez lately.

His uppercut to the balls was a thing of beauty.


----------



## jorodz

Lester1583 said:


> Been watching some Rosendo Alvarez lately.
> 
> His uppercut to the balls was a thing of beauty.


:lol:


----------



## jorodz

alvarez was an awkward fuck...like Chang with a traumatic brain injury


----------



## Pedderrs

Wlad is shit.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Carlos monzon vs jean claude bouttier 2

What a fight! Didnt expect to see monzon beaten to the jab or eat flush right hands so often from a little guy,didnt score it but going into the 13th bouttier might have been ahead.They must have given monzon the "one i mixed"type drink in the 13th he comes out like Marciano.

Excellent fight


----------



## Lester1583

Jdempsey85 said:


> They must have given monzon the "one i mixed"type drink in the 13th he comes out like Marciano.


Monzon was a notorious PED user.:yep


----------



## Lester1583

Fanboys rave endlessly about Rigo's ability to tame mediocre fighters with his counterpunches.

That's not impressive.


Kalule being able to reduce the beast that was Marijan Benes to a gay fencer using only smoothness and featherfistendess.

That's impressive.


----------



## jorodz

Just watched Tony Canzoneri knock the living shit out of Jackie Berg. What a knockout...


----------



## Pedderrs

Sportofkings said:


> Well lads, thought this thread would be a good addition to have here:good
> 
> I watched Miguel 'Happy' Lora vs Daniel Zaragoza today for the bantamweight title. This is my first time watching the Colombian Lora and I was impressed, it was a excellent performance against a good fighter. Lora dominated the first half of the fight, using very good head and lateral movement to evade almost all of the taller, rangier punching Zaragozas work. Lora timed the right hand to perfection in the first half of the fight, nailing the Mexican with it in every round, with the uppercut and hook working very well as counter punch. Zarazgoza was knocked down and badly hurt in the 4th and 5th rounds, once with an uppercut to the jaw and again with a left hook to the body. Zarazgoza seemed to come back into as the rounds wore on and Lora slowed down though, landing some decent shots and taking three or four rounds of the second half. I didnt score it but it was a comfortable victory in the end for Lora, who looked top class in his prime.


I watched that the other day. Loved it. I thought Zaragoza was G though. Recovering from those heavy knockdowns not only to survive, but he actually tried to win the fight. Entertaining.


----------



## Klompton

Joe Frazier-Chuck Leslie. Very good fight. This was Frazier's first fight in California where he was hoping to break into the thriving heavyweight scene that featured guys like Machen, Spencer, Henry Clark, Scrap Iron Johnson, Jerry Quarry, Orbillo, and Manuel Ramos. He had been a pro less than a year. Leslie gave his best but Frazier was just too strong and hit too hard. Frazier hadnt perfected his bobbing style yet so he ate a lot of punches which made for an action packed fight but every time he touched Leslie it moved Chuck back about 3 feet. Despite being only a light heavyweight Leslie had beaten Thad Spencer, and Tony Doyle and had gone the distance with Andy Kendell, Amos Lincoln, Jimmy Ellis, and Mauro Mina. Later in his career he would go the distance with Tony Alongi, Gregorio Peralta (twice), Johnny Persol, and Ken Norton. When way past his prime he took Ernie Shavers into the 10th. He took the 10 count for the first time against Frazier and it would be five years before that happened again.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Dwight Braxton vs Eddie davis

Braxton has his man out on his feet in the 1st(ANIMAL)next 3 rounds dr ferdie pacheco is calling for the fight to be stopped,no praise for davis!Pacheco is a annoying C****.Muted


----------



## Jdempsey85

Lester1583 said:


> Monzon was a notorious PED user.:yep


Ha.A few months ago the daily mail reported the whole German squad that won the 74 world cup were on PEDS.


----------



## jorodz

Jdempsey85 said:


> Dwight Braxton vs Eddie davis
> 
> Braxton has his man out on his feet in the 1st(ANIMAL)next 3 rounds dr ferdie pacheco is calling for the fight to be stopped,no praise for davis!Pacheco is a annoying C****.Muted


my personal take is that pacheco is obnoxious, arrogant, abrasive, casually racist and doesn't know shit about boxing. he was in the sport for YEARS but seems to have learned nothing


----------



## Jdempsey85

@jorodz

I watched Azumah Nelson fight a while ago might have been v jj leia,anyway in the 12 nelson comes out pumped up,bouncing around and pacheco says something like''hes like 1 of those guys from the jungle''lol


----------



## jorodz

Jdempsey85 said:


> @jorodz
> 
> I watched Azumah Nelson fight a while ago might have been v jj leia,anyway in the 12 nelson comes out pumped up,bouncing around and pacheco says something like''hes like 1 of those guys from the jungle''lol


:whaaaat


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Villaflor KO1 Arguello


Saijo definitely had the skills to beat Marquez.

If only he wasn't such a warrior...

Shozo - Pedro Gomez is up on youtube, by the way.


----------



## Lester1583

Packey Mcfarland:



> Father was once the cause of me passing up $10.000, but I have never really regretted it, because if I had accepted I don't know what he would have done.
> As you know my first big fight was with Jimmy Britt at Colma. Immediately after that fight I was offered $10.000 to meet Joe Gans.
> Father put his foot right away - and kept it down. "I would rather see you brought home dead rather licker by a naygur", he said, and that was the end of it.


----------



## Jdempsey85

A duran fight that hardly gets mention.Some great body shots here


----------



## Jdempsey85

A duran fight that hardly gets a mention.Some great body shots here.Great scrap


----------



## jorodz

watching some of benn-mcclellan. it's all been said but benn threw rabbit punches with abandon. officiating may be the worst i've ever seen. btw: i'm not doctor but if a fighter was blinking the way g-man was, i'd end the fucking fight


----------



## jorodz

roy jones vs glen kelly. he looked more like the footage we have of charly burley here than any other jones fight i've seen. ok: glen kelly was no world beater. but he was a tough determined opponent and jones had to look for and create opportunities to land. and he did. a lot. jones set traps, feinted and earned his punches which came as single, brutal shots and were no less effective than if he were throwing combinations. the knockout is mind boggling to me to this day and watching that leaping uppercut is a thing of beauty. for me, jones is a lock for top 20 all time.


----------



## jorodz

tyson fury is an idiot. he looked like shit against cunningham until he just started bullying and bludgeoning him


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Kawashima-Penalosa


They almost robbed poor Geronimo.

Kawashima won 4 rounds at best. 
5 if you're a Japanese.

And the referee blew the call at the end of the 2-nd round - it was a legitimate knockdown.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> They almost robbed poor Geronimo.
> 
> Kawashima won 4 rounds at best.
> 5 if you're a Japanese.
> 
> And the referee blew the call at the end of the 2-nd round - it was a legitimate knockdown.


Indeed. I really like both fighters, but Gerry was better. He battered Kawashima for most part.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Indeed. I really like both fighters, but Gerry was better. He battered Kawashima for most part.


Gerry was really hard done by at super fly it seems. I'm thinking of putting him in the latter half of my top ten at 115 in the book I'm working on based on him being shafted in a few title fights.


----------



## jorodz

Flea Man said:


> Gerry was really hard done by at super fly it seems. I'm thinking of putting him in the latter half of my top ten at 115 in the book I'm working on based on him being shafted in a few title fights.


how much are you placing on skills seen on film? He stands up very well to "the eye test"


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Gerry was really hard done by at super fly it seems. I'm thinking of putting him in the latter half of my top ten at 115 in the book I'm working on based on him being shafted in a few title fights.


Myung Woo Yuh is considered to be a bit of a lucky boy getting the decisions over the likes of Joey Olivo, Jose De Jesus, and Leo Gamez. The opposite is true for Gerry Penalosa against In Joo Cho and Masamori Tokuyama. Penalosa's all-time standing could be very different had he not traveled to South Korea and Japan.

It's fairly obvious when you watch Gerry dismantle Kawashima, who was attempting to make his 7th successive title defense at 115lbs, that you weren't watching an ordinary fighter. Gerry was a bit special. I think he has competitive fights with any of the greats.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Myung Woo Yuh is considered to be a bit of a lucky boy getting the decisions over the likes of Joey Olivo, Jose De Jesus, and Leo Gamez. The opposite is true for Gerry Penalosa against In Joo Cho and Masamori Tokuyama. Penalosa's all-time standing could be very different had he not traveled to South Korea and Japan.
> 
> It's fairly obvious when you watch Gerry dismantle Kawashima, who was attempting to make his 7th successive title defense at 115lbs, that you weren't watching an ordinary fighter. Gerry was a bit special. I think he has competitive fights with any of the greats.


Kawashima wasn't all that though. As for Yuh it looks bad that that those are the best he fought (replace De Jesus with Blanco though, who Yuh demolished)

Yes @jorodz Have always enjoyed watching Gerry at bantam. Seeing more of him before only reaffirms what a tidy fighter he was.

I'm going on level of opposition which Penalosa doesn't score high on at super fly but he should've had a decent title reign there and looked good there. Ain't watched both Choo fights though.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Kawashima wasn't all that though.


I thought so myself after watching him get destroyed by Gerry Penalosa, but it turns out Kawashima was actually a talented fighter who fought and beat some of the better Junior Bantamweights around at the time. Guys like Jose Luis Bueno, Seung-Koo Lee, Carlos Gabriel Salazar, etc. All of those men would be title holders today.

What other fights of Hiroshi Kawashima have you watched?


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I thought so myself after watching him get destroyed by Gerry Penalosa, but it turns out Kawashima was actually a talented fighter who fought and beat some of the better Junior Bantamweights around at the time. Guys like Jose Luis Bueno, Seung-Koo Lee, Carlos Gabriel Salazar, etc. All of those men would be title holders today.
> 
> What other fights of Hiroshi Kawashima have you watched?


Salazar one, got a few of his fights (EDIT: I mean Salazar here) have I got him versus Barrera or am I tripping?). Wasn't a great era for super fly at all. I reckon Tapia Vs Romero told who the best 115lber of the time was.

Have only just watched his (EDIT : I mean the Jap here) fight with Penalosa on your recommendation. In fact I downloaded loads of his super fly fights and now concede that he was better than Dodie Boy.


----------



## Lester1583

jorodz said:


> how much are you placing on skills seen on film? He stands up very well to "the eye test"


Pretty good fighter as far as skills are concerned.

And an iron chin, of course.

Being a bit too methodical and one-paced are his biggest deficiencies.

You could probably put him in a top 10 at super flyweight (the lower tier of it) - especially if you think his losses were controversial.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Salazar one, got a few of his fights (have I got him versus Barrera or am I tripping?). Wasn't a great era for super fly.


Kawashima didn't look good against Salazar, but then again who did? Both Moon and Barrera came dangerously close to dropping decisions against Salazar.

You should watch Kawashima vs Bueno I. It's on Youtube. Fantastic fight. Real high quality.






Entertaining fight, Flea. You'll enjoy it.



> Have only just watched his fight with Penalosa on your recommendation. In fact I downloaded loads of his super fly fights and now concede that he was better than Dodie Boy.


Penalosa should have been a long-reigning champion at 115lbs. It was the shitty hometown decisions that probably cost a potential Penalosa-Tapia fight.


----------



## Pedderrs

And Danny Romero would have got lit up like a Christmas tree if he fought Penalosa. He had absolutely nothing for Gerry.


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> Kawashima didn't look good against Salazar, but then again who did? Both Moon and Barrera came dangerously close to dropping decisions against Salazar.
> 
> You should watch Kawashima vs Bueno I. It's on Youtube. Fantastic fight. Real high quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entertaining fight, Flea. You'll enjoy it.
> 
> Penalosa should have been a long-reigning champion at 115lbs. It was the shitty hometown decisions that probably cost a potential Penalosa-Tapia fight.


Did you watch any of the Salazar vs Harold Grey fights ? I think I will order some fights in dynamiteboxing soon and he has a lot of Grey fights including the rematch against Salazar where, apparently, Grey won a bit clearly.


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> Did you watch any of the Salazar vs Harold Grey fights ? I think I will order some fights in dynamiteboxing soon and he has a lot of Grey fights including the rematch against Salazar where, apparently, Grey won a bit clearly.


I haven't seen the fight but I know he dropped a UD in Colombia.

Doesn't really change a lot though. Arguably the three most accomplished fighters Salazar ever fought all looked ordinary against him. It's better to watch more of Kawashima than judging him based purely on that performance. Definitely.


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> I haven't seen the fight but I know he dropped a UD in Colombia.
> 
> Doesn't really change a lot though. Arguably the three most accomplished fighters Salazar ever fought all looked ordinary against him. It's better to watch more of Kawashima than judging him based purely on that performance. Definitely.


When I get the dvd with the fight I will post on ytoutube (Grey vs Salazar II, I mean). Since it was in Colombia, there is a chance that it was very close and the scorecards didn´t look too real.... maybe....


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> When I get the dvd with the fight I will post on ytoutube (Grey vs Salazar II, I mean). Since it was in Colombia, there is a chance that it was very close and the scorecards didn´t look too real.... maybe....


You ever ordered from DynamiteBoxing before?


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> You ever ordered from DynamiteBoxing before?


No, heard only good things about the guy though.....


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> No, heard only good things about the guy though.....


I purchased some fights from him last month. Very good quality overall.


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> I purchased some fights from him last month. Very good quality overall.


Oh, nice, good to hear that....dude has a lot of cool fights from the 90s that you don´t find elsewhere.


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> Oh, nice, good to hear that....dude has a lot of cool fights from the 90s that you don´t find elsewhere.


Indeed. He's responsible for 90% of my Hiroshi Kawashima collection.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Indeed. He's responsible for 90% of my Hiroshi Kawashima collection.


Do a LOT of business with him @Vic he's class.


----------



## Lester1583

Check this out - rare Khaokor fight:


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Check this out - rare Khaokor fight:


Is it? Elaborate.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> And Danny Romero would have got lit up like a Christmas tree if he fought Penalosa. He had absolutely nothing for Gerry.


That wasn't my point at all though was it?

Gonna' watch that Kawashima fight now.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> That wasn't my point at all though was it?
> 
> Gonna' watch that Kawashima fight now.


Don't give a fuck if it was the point you were making or not, you tit. I don't even remember quoting you.

Enjoy.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Don't give a fuck if it was the point you were making or not, you tit. I don't even remember quoting you.
> 
> Enjoy.


What the fuck is your problem? I thought it was directed at me. I agree with you anyway.

Kawashima won this easily. I've only seen two of Bueno's fights (one where he was shot against Morales so won't judge him on that) but felt he won impressively against Moon considering it was in Korea, he was sat on his arse and seemed to fracture Moons cheekbone and had to box against that monster and pulled out the win where many others couldn't. Not one of Nacho's best stylists but that's not really a knock on Bueno.

As for the fight it showed Kawashima was a much sharper operator; Bueno was less confident in a boxing match than he was playing matador against Moon and the southpaw mixed in a nice right uppercut and punctuated his performance by banjoing the champ in the 11th round. Was content to stay away in the 12th but I feel that's fine as his effort throughout was exemplary.

Does Bueno bring much to the table in their rematch or is it much of the same?


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> What the fuck is your problem? I thought it was directed at me.
> 
> Kawashima won this easily. I've only seen two of Bueno's fights (one where he was shot against Morales so won't judge him on that) but felt he won impressively against Moon considering it was in Korea, he was sat on his arse and seemed to fracture Mokns cheekbone and had to box against that monster and pulled out the win where many others couldn't. Not one of Nacho's best stylists but that's not really a knock on Bueno.
> 
> As for the fight it showed Kawashima was a much sharper operator; Bueno was less confident in a boxing match than he was playing matador against Moon and the southpaw mixed in a nice right uppercut and punctuated his performance by banjoing the champ in the 11th round. Was content to stay away in the 12th but I feel that's fine as his effort throughout was exemplary.
> 
> Does Bueno bring much to the table in their rematch or is it much of the same?


Sorry lad. Calling you a tit was unnecessary. I think I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

It was the first Bueno fight that caused me to reassess Kawashima's quality as a champion at 115lbs. And he was a champion; not a titlist. He won the WBC belt outright by beating Bueno, who had defeated Moon, and he successfully defended the title on numerous occasions against solid opposition.

I thought it was a classy performance against Bueno. Kawashima showed a nice offensive arsenal; setting up combinations with the jab, mixing in lead uppercuts, lead left hands, and he threw the nice double hook to body and head when in close. He was nowhere near as limited and as poor as he was made to look against the sensational Gerry Penalosa in '97. Hiroshi could hit a bit too. He not only had Bueno on the ground and badly hurt, but Gerry was certainly buzzed at one point in their fight too. He had good power in that left hand.

In regards to Danny Romero though, Masamori Tokuyama should rate higher than him among the Junior Bantamweights. Although I think he got a gift in the Penalosa rematch, he definitely ran Gerry close in their first fight. There was only a point or two in it. You also have to factor in his 9 title defenses and victories over such men as; In Joo Cho, Katsushige Kawashima, Dmitry Kirillov, and Jose Navarro. I can't even really see an argument for having Danny Romero higher. The two most accomplished Super Flyweights of that era were Johnny Tapia and Masamori Tokuyama.

Edit: And to answer your question about the rematch, Bueno performs infinitely better. I think I had him winning the opening three rounds. It was a close fight.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Sorry lad. Calling you a tit was unnecessary. I think I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
> 
> It was the first Bueno fight that caused me to reassess Kawashima's quality as a champion at 115lbs. And he was a champion; not a titlist. He won the WBC belt outright by beating Bueno, who had defeated Moon, and he successfully defended the title on numerous occasions against solid opposition.
> 
> I thought it was a classy performance against Bueno. Kawashima showed a nice offensive arsenal; setting up combinations with the jab, mixing in lead uppercuts, lead left hands, and he threw the nice double hook to body and head when in close. He was nowhere near as limited and as poor as he was made to look against the sensational Gerry Penalosa in '97. Hiroshi could hit a bit too. He not only had Bueno on the ground and badly hurt, but Gerry was certainly buzzed at one point in their fight too. He had good power in that left hand.
> 
> In regards to Danny Romero though, Masamori Tokuyama should rate higher than him among the Junior Bantamweights. Although I think he got a gift in the Penalosa rematch, he definitely ran Gerry close in their first fight. There was only a point or two in it. You also have to factor in his 9 title defenses and victories over such men as; In Joo Cho, Katsushige Kawashima, Dmitry Kirillov, and Jose Navarro. I can't even really see an argument for having Danny Romero higher. The two most accomplished Super Flyweights of that era were Johnny Tapia and Masamori Tokuyama.
> 
> Edit: And to answer your question about the rematch, Bueno performs infinitely better. I think I had him winning the opening three rounds. It was a close fight.


I'm not saying I rank Romero that highly only that when he and Tapia met it was an important match that showed Tapia was the best of that time. In lieu of a #1 Vs #2 a #1 Vs #3 is what you have to take. Tapia's WBO belt didn't mean that much but he showed how good he was Vs Romero, who hit f'n hard.

I've only watched one of the Penelosa-Tokuyama fights and Gerry won handily. Will watch the other today I have lots of Gerrys 115 fights now, mainly for the WBC international title which are pretty much genuine title defences for me as he didn't seem to lose the title in the ring.

You're right; Bueno was the champ. Watanabe, Roman, Konadu, Moon. Khaosai was NEVER champion.

And it's no sweat was only 'tit' that startled me. I often wake up on the wrong side of the bed so no arguments from me here just surprised me as we jest each other a lot but never have any 'proper' tiffs.


----------



## Flea Man

@Pedderrs in fact it was #2 Vs #3 ; that fight was in '97. Penalosa was champ I think. Tokuyama didn't win the belt til a few years later after Gerry had been robbed Vs Choo.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> I'm not saying I rank Romero that highly only that when he and Tapia met it was an important match that showed Tapia was the best of that time. In lieu of a #1 Vs #2 a #1 Vs #3 is what you have to take. Tapia's WBO belt didn't mean that much but he showed how good he was Vs Romero, who hit f'n hard.


Tapia-Romero decided who was the best Junior Bantamweight of Albuquerque, New Mexico. That's about it. The networks and the promoters were desperate for both fighters to get it on because the hometown rivalry would fill seats and, as a result, make a lot more money than your usual Junior Bantamweight title fight would be expected to make. In reality, Tapia was significantly better than Danny Romero who's reign at 115lbs up to that point had been slightly underwhelming and fairly brief. Tapia is credited as being the best more because of his consistency and level of opposition rather than one singular win.



> I've only watched one of the Penelosa-Tokuyama fights and Gerry won handily. Will watch the other today I have lots of Gerrys 115 fights now, mainly for the WBC international title which are pretty much genuine title defences for me as he didn't seem to lose the title in the ring.


Gerry was flat out robbed in the rematch. He won easily.



> You're right; Bueno was the champ. Watanabe, Roman, Konadu, Moon. Khaosai was NEVER champion


It's not uncommon at these weights for average talents to pick up vacant titles only to then milk the championship at home against porous opposition. Note that I didn't say Kawashima was "the" champion, only "a" champion. There's a clear distinction between the likes of Kawashima, who won his title legitimately and defended it on numerous occasions, to someone like In-Jo Cho, who got two absolute gifts against Penalosa back home in South Korea. He was never a champion.


----------



## Pedderrs

Awful decision. Let's get some scorecards if we can.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Awful decision. Let's get some scorecards if we can.


Your enthusiasm is infectious, Yuh-believer.

I've watched it.

It's not a robbery. Although Marlon Starling would disagree.

Penalosa landed the harder shots but was too economical - the feather-fisted Tokuyama was flashier, more active and outworked Gerry.

A very close fight that could've gone either way with plenty close rounds.

Considering the location of the fight it's no surprise Tokuyama got the decision.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Your enthusiasm is infectious, Yuh-believer.
> 
> I watched it.
> 
> It's not a robbery. Although Marlon Starling would disagree.
> 
> Penalosa landed the harder shots but was too economical - the feather-fisted Tokuyama was flashier, more active and outworked Gerry.
> 
> A very close fight that could've gone either way with plenty close rounds.
> 
> Considering the location of the fight it's no surprise Tokuyama got the decision.


You may not have been surprised, but Tokuyama sure was. Check out him and his team at the end of the 12th round. They knew it themselves.

What was your scorecard, Lester? I'd like to compare some rounds if we could.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> What was your scorecard, Lester?


7-5 in favour of either fighter is fine by me.
Minus point deduction.

116-111 for Tokuyama is way off.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> 7-5 in favour of either fighter is fine by me.
> Minus point deduction.
> 
> 116-111 for Tokuyama is way off.


A bit vague, breh. I was asking for a round by round breakdown.


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> Awful decision. Let's get some scorecards if we can.


Gonna watch it later, buddy. I don´t think I watched this guy Tokuyama before tbh.


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> Gonna watch it later, buddy. I don´t think I watched this guy Tokuyama before tbh.


Be sure to score it as you go, Vic.


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> Be sure to score it as you go, Vic.


Yep, rbr and all.


----------



## Vic

@Pedderrs, it is a robbery IMO.

Penalosa simply landed better punches, he simply landed punches actually, Tokuyama was active but missed everything, you don´t find a punch of his when you "hm, that was a good one, nice shot", no, there is not......horrible result.

I gave Tokuyama only round 1. Penalosa won 11 rounds.

Round 1

10-9 Masamori. Countering well, looks a bit unconfortable with Penalosa´s agressiveness though. He didn´t land too much but a bit more, the clean punches were his...close though.

Round 2
Last minute got the round for Penalosa, landed the best punch of the fight so far.
10-9 Penalosa
Round 3
10-9 Penalosa. Masamori missed everything.
Round 4
10-9 Penalosa
Round 5
10-9 Penalosa
Round 6
10-9 Penalosa
Round 7
10-9 Penalosa
Round 8
10-9 Penalosa
Round 9
10-9 Penalosa
Round 10
10-9 Penalosa, close
Round 11
10-9 Penalosa
Round 12
10-9 Penalosa


----------



## Vic

Just wathced Froch vs Taylor.....had TAylor winning until the stoppage.


----------



## tommygun711

Vic said:


> Just wathced Froch vs Taylor.....had TAylor winning until the stoppage.


Yeah, pretty amazing the way that washed up Taylor was beating froch until his often problematic chin & stamina came into play. Taylor wouldve beaten him had it been a younger, sharper version.


----------



## Lester1583

Sweet Home Obama said:


> it is a robbery IMO.
> horrible result.
> I gave Tokuyama only round 1. Penalosa won 11 rounds.


Sorry, Vic.

Couldn't resist.:smile


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Sorry, Vic.
> 
> Couldn't resist.:smile


You might like my recent uploads


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> @Pedderrs, it is a robbery IMO.
> 
> Penalosa simply landed better punches, he simply landed punches actually, Tokuyama was active but missed everything, you don´t find a punch of his when you "hm, that was a good one, nice shot", no, there is not......horrible result.
> 
> I gave Tokuyama only round 1. Penalosa won 11 rounds.
> 
> Round 1
> 
> 10-9 Masamori. Countering well, looks a bit unconfortable with Penalosa´s agressiveness though. He didn´t land too much but a bit more, the clean punches were his...close though.
> 
> Round 2
> Last minute got the round for Penalosa, landed the best punch of the fight so far.
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 3
> 10-9 Penalosa. Masamori missed everything.
> Round 4
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 5
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 6
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 7
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 8
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 9
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 10
> 10-9 Penalosa, close
> Round 11
> 10-9 Penalosa
> Round 12
> 10-9 Penalosa


I totally agree with you, Vic.

There is no real basis to score Tokuyama as the winner in that fight. He might have threw more punches than Penalosa, but they weren't landing.

I know it wasn't an enjoyable fight to watch but I think it's important to revisit fights like this so we can properly put them into context. It may say on his record that he lost the fight, but we know different. Judges, especially in places like Japan, can't be trusted.

Gerry was so disheartened by the bullshit that he didn't fight again for practically 2 years. Those years should have been spent defending the WBC Junior Bantamweight title. What a waste.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> You might like my recent uploads


Chitalada and Glassohba - nice:yep


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Chitalada and Glassohba - nice:yep


Ohba gets BADLY sparked briefly though with my poor conversion it's not easy to see.

Larry Holmes-esque was Ohba: recovered very quickly.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Ohba gets BADLY sparked briefly though with my poor conversion it's not easy to see.
> 
> Larry Holmes-esque was Ohba: recovered very quickly.


I watched Oba-Chionoi yesterday. Oba looked to have hurt his right leg really badly. I thought the fight was going to be stopped because of that rather than the punches he was taking. As you say, impressive recuperative abilities again from Oba.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Larry Holmes-esque was Ohba: recovered very quickly.


Ohba was a banzai-warrior.

It's not that hard to hurt - but it's much harder to finish him.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I watched Oba-Chionoi yesterday. Oba looked to have hurt his right leg really badly. I thought the fight was going to be stopped because of that rather than the punches he was taking. As you say, impressive recuperative abilities again from Oba.


I was gonna upload Ohba Vs Chionoi and Ohba Vs Berkrerk but didn't as I imagined they were more readily available.

Chionoi had a decent dig on him but yeah Ohba went down heavy. And battered Chionoi as the fight progressed.

Ohba could definitely be hurt early on. Would've loved to see him not die and unify with Venis Borkorsor but likely that they were both heading to bamtam anyway. They would've combined for a brilliant fight IMO


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Ohba was a banzai-warrior.
> 
> It's not that hard to hurt - but it's much harder to finish him.


Lovely jab but has that Japanese mentality where he'd swarm as soon as he'd landed a sharp shot at range that clearly affected his man.


----------



## Pedderrs

I really appreciate the uploads, Flea Man. 

I think I have most of what's available of Oba but it's much more convenient to just go onto your YT channel rather than get the DVDs out. And, of course, there are fights you've uploaded that I won't be able to get out of my DVD collection. :thumbsup


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I really appreciate the uploads, Flea Man.
> 
> I think I have most of what's available of Oba but it's much more convenient to just go onto your YT channel rather than get the DVDs out. And, of course, there are fights you've uploaded that I won't be able to get out of my DVD collection. :thumbsup


:good Hope there's some interesting stuff on there for you. Unfortunately some of it isn't in the greatest of nick but still probably the best you can find it (for a recent one Chitalada-Salazar looks horrid but I'm a completist and take what I can get)


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Chionoi had a decent dig on him but yeah Ohba went down heavy. And battered Chionoi as the fight progressed.


McGowan was outboxing Chionoi easier than Ohba.

But that skin, that goddamned skin:-(


----------



## Pedderrs

Do we all think Kingpetch-Ebihara II was legit?


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Do we all think Kingpetch-Ebihara II was legit?


What the decision? Ebihara had no complaints but was probably being your typical modest Japanese.

I think Pone lost both rematches to Ebihara and Harada.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> What the decision? Ebihara had no complaints but was probably being your typical modest Japanese.
> 
> I think Pone lost both rematches to Ebihara and Harada.


I thought his rematch with Ebihara was a lot closer than the Harada rematch. Harada tapped that ass. But yeah, I watched the fight last night and felt Kingpetch was a bit lucky to get the decision against Ebihara.


----------



## Flea Man

Kingpetch did really well considering the drubbings he got in the firsrt fights he had with those two though.


----------



## Lester1583

The judges hated Ebihara.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Kingpetch did really well considering the drubbings he got in the firsrt fights he had with those two though.


Indeed. It's still an outrage that he got the decision against Harada. I didn't even think it was close.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I thought his rematch with Ebihara was a lot closer than the Harada rematch. Harada tapped that ass. But yeah, I watched the fight last night and felt Kingpetch was a bit lucky to get the decision against Ebihara.


Harada looked lethargic until round 15 after getting into an early lead. Probably struggling to make 112 at that point but I agree thar the tactical battle in the Ebihara fight is a closer contest to call.


----------



## scribbs

check your messages @Flea Man - I've PM'd you


----------



## Ivan Drago

Seeing as I'm working early tomorrow and can't go out for Hogmanay I'm gonna make a start on the boxing collection I got for Christmas:










Dempsey-Tunney 1927
Louis-Schmeling 1936-1938
Louis-Conn 1941
Graziano-Zale 1948
Pep-Saddler 1948-1951
Charles-Walcott 1951
Basilio-Robinson 1957-1958
Basilio-Fulmer 1959-1960
Griffith-Paret 1961-1962
Ali-Foreman 1974
Ali-Frazier 1975
Holyfield-Bowe 1992

:bbb


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Lovely jab but has that Japanese mentality where he'd swarm as soon as he'd landed a sharp shot at range that clearly affected his man.


And Ohba's like Saijo one of those Japanese fighters who hit harder than his record would indicate.

Unlike someone like Yuh he was no featherfister.

And Cunto would be just a contender in Ohba's era - he could never beat Glassohba.

Ohba - Tanabe is the dream fight of the flyweight division.

Ohba's handspeed is underrated - his combinations were really impressive.

Quality upload, Flea.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Chitalada


Not a big fan of a past prime/flat footed Chitalda, to be honest.

I liked him more as a dancing destroyer/an improved Ali rather than the ordinary boxer-puncher.

Still beat Salazar more convincingly than Barrera:yep


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> And Ohba's like Saijo one of those Japanese fighters who hit harder than his record would indicate.
> 
> *Unlike someone like Yuh he was no featherfister.*
> 
> And Cunto would be just a contender in Ohba's era - he could never beat Glassohba.
> 
> Ohba - Tanabe is the dream fight of the flyweight division.
> 
> Ohba's handspeed is underrated - his combinations were really impressive.
> 
> Quality upload, Flea.














> Still beat Salazar more convincingly than a green, 20 year old Barrera at Super Flyweight who was weight drained.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> The blinding brilliance of your post hit me like a bolt of lightning!
> I'm flabbergasted, dazed and confused all at once!


I knew you were gonna react:lol:


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> I knew you were gonna react:lol:


Your trollin' was transparent in this case Lester; shittin' on Yuh and Barrera in consecutive posts. Hurtful.

And mentioning Shozo too.

The best Featherweight Shozo would be capable of beating, who do we think?


----------



## Flea Man

Shibata. I reckon he has a good chance of sparking Shibata.EDIT: Good chance of getting sparked too. 

Eloy Rojas.


----------



## Lester1583

1949:



> Charley Burley, Jersey Joe Walcott's sparring partner, has had enough. He's going home to Pittsbutrgh.
> Burley was given a severe jolting by Walcott saturday lasting only 1,5 rounds in the workout.
> 
> "That Walcott isn't kidding", Burley said sunday. "He blasted me with that right hand until I was out on my feet. I never thought that would happen the first day of camp - I'm heading for home."


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea and Lester...

How would you order these Japanese fighters in terms of ability?

Masao Ohba, Kuniaki Shibata, Hiroyuki Ebihara, Katsuo Tokashiki, Shozo Saijo, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Fighting Harada, and Yoko Gushiken.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Flea and Lester...
> 
> How would you order these Japanese fighters in terms of ability?
> 
> Masao Ohba, Kuniaki Shibata, Hiroyuki Ebihara, Katsuo Tokashiki, Shozo Saijo, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Fighting Harada, and Yoko Gushiken.


1. Harada; Brilliantly persistent jab and one of the best swarmers of all time on film. Two fisted puncher, overhand right was thrown without warning. The greatest.
2. Ebihara; Southpaw assassin, though maybe a little tame at times and content to box in first gear. Nice footwork to spring in and out of range, diverse offence, quick of hand and foot. Like most Japanese fighters really opened up when he saw blood (see Kingpetch, Pone 1 & Torres, Efren)
3. Ohba; A little upright at times which saw him get caught a fair bit, and maybe not as great leading which is why Betulio Gonzalez managed to keep him over reaching (admittedly in a career best showing before Gonzalez became a fan friendly one dimensional battler) Ohba was really a stand up and jab mid-range fighter who could spring into a swarming monster when he had his man hurt. But what a jab though. Really, really terrific left hand and used his range well. 
4. Shibata; Right hand was sparingly used and only sporadically brilliant but his left hand was extremely cultured and extremely quick.Wasn't a great jabber, more of a feint jab quickly turned over into the hook. Cultured mover. He might well be more skilled than Ohba but Ohba liked to keep it at his range and steadily press the action whereas Shibata liked to pop off a couple of shots and reset, move about, throw some sharp, flashy shots then move off again. I'm placing Ohba above because when he was hurt he had more nous, whereas when Shibata was hurt he was invariably stopped because he lost his form.
5. Kobayashi; Tidy operator and well rounded without being spectacular in any one facet IMO. Underrated today and easily beat Saijo in their catchweight super fight. Was on way to beating Marcano before being lamped. 
6. Saijo; A bit Louis/Arguello esque, if not as balanced or sharp but as a textbook power puncher he was very, very good and a harder puncher than his % suggests. Defensively porous though.
7. Gushiken; Not quick as slick as he thought he was (I always think of his afro nearly being punched off by that Guzman fella) but walk to him and he'd pick you off with an array of precision counters. When he got going was beautiful to watch but lacks longevity and top level scalps for me to really believe in him as a top drawer stylist despite sometimes looking very aesthetically pleasing.
8. Tokashiki; Quite sloppy offensively, but decent boxer, if with little power. Going life and death with Lupe Madera shows he wasn't the complete article but he was World class if inconsistent from round to round IMO. Quick enough of hand and foot though.

Speaking of Saijo-Rojas; I'm uploading Shozo's fight where he wins the title, against the very able former Saldivar challenger and top class fighter from 126 to 130, Raul Rojas, as I type :good


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> How would you order these Japanese fighters in terms of ability?


Harada is number 1.

Second tier - Ebihara, Ohba.

Third tier - Shibata, Saijo, Gushiken, Kobayashi.

Fourth tier - Tokashiki.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> 7. Gushiken


A bit surprised to see Orzubek's father so low.

I know some people rate him highly.

Although personally I was never that impressed with Gushiken too.



Flea Man said:


> Speaking of Saijo-Rojas; I'm uploading Shozo's fight where he wins the title, against the very able former Saldivar challenger and top class fighter from 126 to 130, Raul Rojas, as I type :good


One of Saijo's best and most reserved performances, if I remember correctly.

Saijo of Rojas fight would give Marquez's cement feet plenty to think about:yep


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> 1. Harada; Brilliantly persistent jab and one of the best swarmers of all time on film. Two fisted puncher, overhand right was thrown without warning. The greatest.
> 2. Ebihara; Southpaw assassin, though maybe a little tame at times and content to box in first gear. Nice footwork to spring in and out of range, diverse offence, quick of hand and foot. Like most Japanese fighters really opened up when he saw blood (see Kingpetch, Pone 1 & Torres, Efren)
> 3. Ohba; A little upright at times which saw him get caught a fair bit, and maybe not as great leading which is why Betulio Gonzalez managed to keep him over reaching (admittedly in a career best showing before Gonzalez became a fan friendly one dimensional battler) Ohba was really a stand up and jab mid-range fighter who could spring into a swarming monster when he had his man hurt. But what a jab though. Really, really terrific left hand and used his range well.
> 4. Shibata; Right hand was sparingly used and only sporadically brilliant but his left hand was extremely cultured and extremely quick.Wasn't a great jabber, more of a feint jab quickly turned over into the hook. Cultured mover. He might well be more skilled than Ohba but Ohba liked to keep it at his range and steadily press the action whereas Shibata liked to pop off a couple of shots and reset, move about, throw some sharp, flashy shots then move off again. I'm placing Ohba above because when he was hurt he had more nous, whereas when Shibata was hurt he was invariably stopped because he lost his form.
> 5. Kobayashi; Tidy operator and well rounded without being spectacular in any one facet IMO. Underrated today and easily beat Saijo in their catchweight super fight. Was on way to beating Marcano before being lamped.
> 6. Saijo; A bit Louis/Arguello esque, if not as balanced or sharp but as a textbook power puncher he was very, very good and a harder puncher than his % suggests. Defensively porous though.
> 7. Gushiken; Not quick as slick as he thought he was (I always think of his afro nearly being punched off by that Guzman fella) but walk to him and he'd pick you off with an array of precision counters. When he got going was beautiful to watch but lacks longevity and top level scalps for me to really believe in him as a top drawer stylist despite sometimes looking very aesthetically pleasing.
> 8. Tokashiki; Quite sloppy offensively, but decent boxer, if with little power. Going life and death with Lupe Madera shows he wasn't the complete article but he was World class if inconsistent from round to round IMO. Quick enough of hand and foot though.
> 
> Speaking of Saijo-Rojas; I'm uploading Shozo's fight where he wins the title, against the very able former Saldivar challenger and top class fighter from 126 to 130, Raul Rojas, as I type :good


I've only just recently been getting into these Japanese fighters so I don't feel like I can order them with any real confidence. Thanks for the detailed summaries, Flea.

I watched Saijo's title winning effort over Rojas about 3 hours ago, and I remember thinking that he was very similar to an Arguello. It's strange to watch a fighter with so few knockouts hurt his opponent so frequently. As you say, he hit a lot harder than his modest KO ratio would suggest. Lovely jab, nice right hand, and I was really impressed with his repertoire of punches. He can't seem to mix them all up in combination as freely as Arguello could, and he was nowhere near as balanced, but there was enough there to suggest to me he could give quite a lot of Featherweights a tough night's work. The only other fights I've watched of Shozo's are against Godfrey Stevens and Hiroshi Kobayashi. Stevens was completely outclassed whereas Kobayashi had the beating of him. The split decision flattered Shozo.


----------



## Flea Man

@Pedderrs I have a fair bit of Saijo. Will upload his second fight with 'Irish' Frankie Crawford for you which is a good fight.

I find Gushiken to be overrated.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> @Pedderrs I have a fair bit of Saijo. Will upload his second fight with 'Irish' Frankie Crawford for you which is a good fight.
> 
> I find Gushiken to be overrated.


Where would he rank in your top 5 at Light Fly?


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Where would he rank in your top 5 at Light Fly?


Nowhere near top 5. Might sneak in top 10.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Nowhere near top 5. Might sneak in top 10.


I dunno about that Flea, Yoko had quite an impressive reign as WBA champ.

The only fighters who I think are definitely ahead of him are Chang, Zapata, Carbajal, and Yuh.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I dunno about that Flea, Yoko had quite an impressive reign as WBA champ.
> 
> The only fighters who I think are definitely ahead of him are Chang, Zapata, Carbajal, and Yuh.


Nah he didn't. Chiquita Gonzalez is much, much more accomplished even with losses in and around his prime. He also came back after his devastating loss to improve, Gushiken disappeared.

Gushiken is very much overrated. Only a couple of good wins during his title reign. I'd rank Estaba higher.


----------



## Flea Man

I must reiterate; Gushiken doesn't have one top level win in all his defences. And lost to an average fighter he'd already beaten.

As negative as he was Gonzalez avenged his loss to Carbajal twice and beat a fading Chang. Still a Chang that went on to arguably win the lineal flyweight crown and get blasted out nearly winning it again. I would say Sun Kim was a better win that anyone on Gushikens record. In fact if it'd been Gushiken in the opposite corner rather than Chiquita or Carbajal Kwang might've won himself a title although admittedly Gushiken had enough class to find the openings those two did as well. 

I've felt for a while that Gushiken is very, very overrated and I love the guy. Best afro/tache combo ever though.

Haw Machachai was a good Thai though.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Nah he didn't. Chiquita Gonzalez is much, much more accomplished even with losses in and around his prime. He also came back after his devastating loss to improve, Gushiken disappeared.
> 
> Gushiken is very much overrated. *Only a couple of good wins during his title reign.* I'd rank Estaba higher.


13 straight title defenses is impressive whichever way you look at it, Flea. I find it strange that you penalize Gushiken for the quality of his opposition when fighters like Yuh and Estaba didn't exactly come up against monsters during their title reigns either. I'd be interested in hearing who makes up your top 10 because there's really not a lot to choose from when it comes to the Light Flyweights. Jorge Arce? Jake Matlala? Dodie Boy?


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> 13 straight title defenses is impressive whichever way you look at it, Flea. I find it strange that you penalize Gushiken for the quality of his opposition when fighters like Yuh and Estaba didn't exactly come up against monsters during their title reigns either. I'd be interested in hearing who makes up your top 10 because there's really not a lot to choose from when it comes to the Light Flyweights. Jorge Arce? Jake Matlala? Dodie Boy?


I never look at it like that and I think it's an issue people do. EDIT Each to their own though I just see quality of opposition as the most important factor when judging a fighters quality

Yuh and Estaba faced much better fighters. Vorasingh is better than anyone Gushiken beat. Olivo for Yuh, and Gamez. Close fights but that's what happens against better fighters.

I just don't give long term titlists benefit of the doubt for consistency against subpar opposition.

Not listing my full top 10 as it's part of a book I'm currently writing; and light fly is the first chapter :good


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> I never look at it like that and I think it's an issue people do.
> 
> Yuh and Estaba faced much better fighters. Vorasingh is better than anyone Gushiken beat. Olivo for Yuh, and Gamez. Close fights but that's what happens against better fighters.
> 
> I just don't give long term titlists benefit of the doubt for consistency against subpar opposition.
> 
> Not listing my full top 10 as it's part of a book I'm currently writing; and light fly is the first chapter :good


If Baby Jake is ranked higher than Yoko in your book then I won't be buying it, Flea. :lol:


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> If Baby Jake is ranked higher than Yoko in your book then I won't be buying it, Flea. :lol:


Nah he won't be even if past prime Carbajal is better than anyone on Gushikens record.

I think Gushiken is one of these fighters that needs serious re-evaluation by fight fans though. Nowhere near as good as he's made out to be, even by the minority of fans that give a shit about light fly.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Nah he won't be even if past prime Carbajal is better than anyone on Gushikens record.
> 
> I think Gushiken is one of these fighters that needs serious re-evaluation by fight fans though. Nowhere near as good as he's made out to be, even by the minority of fans that give a shit about light fly.


You may be right, Flea.

I think Yoko looks pretty damn good on film myself. I tend not to be overly critical of champs at these weights when it comes to their competition because a lot of the time it's not really available.


----------



## Flea Man

I'm tempted to rank Sorjaturong higher than Gushiken. Chiquita aside I'd say Gushiken has the better run of title defences though. So Samarn will occupy the #10 spot, which was my gut feeling as I started anyway.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> You may be right, Flea.
> 
> I think Yoko looks pretty damn good on film myself. I tend not to be overly critical of champs at these weights when it comes to their competition because a lot of the time it's not really available.


Light fly exploded just after Yoko to be fair but it was STACKED all though the 80s and up to the early to mid 90s.

And you're right....hence Estaba beating an 0-0 fighter for the belt :-( Though he did beat the Italian tha had been stripped a few fights later. Admittedly only seen the Italian fella past his best against Magri up at fly (his name escapes me at the moment)


----------



## Flea Man

Calderon ain't making the top 10.

And I'm negating to have a chapter on minimumweight. No depth whatsoever.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> I'm tempted to rank Sorjaturong higher than Gushiken. Chiquita aside I'd say Gushiken has the better run of title defences though. So Samarn will occupy the #10 spot, which was my gut feeling as I started anyway.


Chang, Zapata, Yuh, Carbajal, Gonzalez, Arce, Estaba, Gushiken, Ulises Solis, Sarjaturong.

Maybe that then.


----------



## tommygun711

Just watched Foster vs DePaula.

Foster really was an animal in his prime. Steady movement, Liston-esque jab. Knockout power in every punch. Put punches together like a Mexican welterweight. I question who could beat this man prime for prime if you match him up against all the great LHWs, just from his power alone. H2H I rank him top 5 and there's no other way around it. He'd spark tons of ATG LHWs and prime for prime.


----------



## Flea Man

I really liked Ullises Solis.

But nah.

EDIT: But thanks for making the devastation of him being sparked by Viloria resurface after so many years (what is the 'crying' emoticon)


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> Just watched Foster vs DePaula.
> 
> Foster really was an animal in his prime. Steady movement, Liston-esque jab. Knockout power in every punch. Put punches together like a Mexican welterweight. I question who could beat this man prime for prime if you match him up against all the great LHWs, just from his power alone. H2H I rank him top 5 and there's no other way around it. He'd spark tons of ATG LHWs and prime for prime.


Pretty poor era for 175 and spent most of his prime getting battered by heavyweights.


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> Pretty poor era for 175 and spent most of his prime getting battered by heavyweights.


Yeah he was garbage at HW, but I think he was still one of the best LHWs of all time and would definitely beat alot of LHWs. He would fuck the shit out of Conteh, spark Jones Jr, Michael Moorer, Virgil Hill, Saad Muhammad, u name it.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Apichet Saenset is someone I'm looking out for. He scores TKO's all the friggin time. Excellent body puncher. I'd like to find out more about him and I'd like him to fight on the bigger stage now. He won Gold very recently in the SEA games in Welterweight having TKO'd all of his opposition.

This is from his last fight:
MALAYSIAN boxer G Ramkumar missed the gold in a technical knockout (TKO) in the SEA Games men's 65kg boxing final after receiving an uppercut from Apichet Saenset of Thailand *just two seconds after stepping into the ring. * :lol:


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Flea Man said:


> 1. Harada; Brilliantly persistent jab and one of the best swarmers of all time on film. Two fisted puncher, overhand right was thrown without warning. The greatest.
> 2. Ebihara; Southpaw assassin, though maybe a little tame at times and content to box in first gear. Nice footwork to spring in and out of range, diverse offence, quick of hand and foot. Like most Japanese fighters really opened up when he saw blood (see Kingpetch, Pone 1 & Torres, Efren)
> 3. Ohba; A little upright at times which saw him get caught a fair bit, and maybe not as great leading which is why Betulio Gonzalez managed to keep him over reaching (admittedly in a career best showing before Gonzalez became a fan friendly one dimensional battler) Ohba was really a stand up and jab mid-range fighter who could spring into a swarming monster when he had his man hurt. But what a jab though. Really, really terrific left hand and used his range well.
> 4. Shibata; Right hand was sparingly used and only sporadically brilliant but his left hand was extremely cultured and extremely quick.Wasn't a great jabber, more of a feint jab quickly turned over into the hook. Cultured mover. He might well be more skilled than Ohba but Ohba liked to keep it at his range and steadily press the action whereas Shibata liked to pop off a couple of shots and reset, move about, throw some sharp, flashy shots then move off again. I'm placing Ohba above because when he was hurt he had more nous, whereas when Shibata was hurt he was invariably stopped because he lost his form.
> 5. Kobayashi; Tidy operator and well rounded without being spectacular in any one facet IMO. Underrated today and easily beat Saijo in their catchweight super fight. Was on way to beating Marcano before being lamped.
> 6. Saijo; A bit Louis/Arguello esque, if not as balanced or sharp but as a textbook power puncher he was very, very good and a harder puncher than his % suggests. Defensively porous though.
> 7. Gushiken; Not quick as slick as he thought he was (I always think of his afro nearly being punched off by that Guzman fella) but walk to him and he'd pick you off with an array of precision counters. When he got going was beautiful to watch but lacks longevity and top level scalps for me to really believe in him as a top drawer stylist despite sometimes looking very aesthetically pleasing.
> 8. Tokashiki; Quite sloppy offensively, but decent boxer, if with little power. Going life and death with Lupe Madera shows he wasn't the complete article but he was World class if inconsistent from round to round IMO. Quick enough of hand and foot though.
> 
> Speaking of Saijo-Rojas; I'm uploading Shozo's fight where he wins the title, against the very able former Saldivar challenger and top class fighter from 126 to 130, Raul Rojas, as I type :good


Wow thanks, nice read. Did you have Betulio winning?


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> Yeah he was garbage at HW, but I think he was still one of the best LHWs of all time and would definitely beat alot of LHWs. He would fuck the shit out of Conteh, spark Jones Jr, *Michael Moorer, Virgil Hill*, Saad Muhammad, u name it.


Not great light heavys.

No guarantee he'd smash those guys as easy as you say.


----------



## Flea Man

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Wow thanks, nice read. Did you have Betulio winning?


Ohba by a point or so in the end I think.


----------



## Sweet Pea

I was never as sold on Gushiken as someone like Teeto was, but I rate him a good bit higher than Flea. He's a top 6 Lt. Fly for me.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Sorjaturong


Were Sorja and Arce really that better than G.Torres?


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> I was never as sold on Gushiken as someone like Teeto was, but I rate him a good bit higher than Flea. He's a top 6 Lt. Fly for me.


Well I have him 8-10 most likely. Not that different. EDIT: Just realised you meant thay you have a higher opinion of his ability than I do. My apologies.

Mind you, I still think he was class.

Would you rate Chiquita higher than Yuh?


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Were Sorja and Arce really that better than G.Torres?


Arce wasn't. Maybe Samarn wasn't either, it's a good point and one I have considered.

Does Ursua have the two best kayos in the divisions history though? Zapata and F.Castillo...?


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Does Ursua have the two best kayos in the divisions history though? Zapata and F.Castillo...?


Panterita also stopped A.Lopez and G.Torres himself.

Not bad for a fighter who rarely gets mentioned in discussions.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Panterita also stopped A.Lopez and G.Torres himself.
> 
> Not bad for a fighter who rarely gets mentioned in discussions.


Dodie Boy was a quality fighter. Left light fly as undefeated titlist but the IBF meant nothing at that point.

Ursua was surely one of the hardest ever hitters at 108.


----------



## Pedderrs

Gonzalez's knockout losses hurt his standing a bit in my opinion. He was also pushed pretty close by Yul-Woo Lee and the Kwang Sun Kim. I think if we take overall ability into account, and we also put those two victories over a faded Carbajal into proper context, then you'd struggle to rank him ahead of Yuh. 

And I've only seen two fights of German Torres and he put in two non-performances against Chang and Zapata. So unless you're telling me that those two performances weren't reflective of Torres' actual quality, then I'd have to say Arce was quite a bit better.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Gonzalez's knockout losses hurt his standing a bit in my opinion. He was also pushed pretty close by Yul-Woo Lee and the Kwang Sun Kim. I think if we take overall ability into account, and we also put those two victories over a faded Carbajal into proper context, then you'd struggle to rank him ahead of Yuh.
> 
> And I've only seen two fights of German Torres and he put in two non-performances against Chang and Zapata. So unless you're telling me that those two performances weren't reflective of Torres' actual quality, then I'd have to say Arce was quite a bit better.


Watch Torres Vs Olympian and former lineal flyweight champ Mercedes on my channel, a classic! EDIT: Watch all 3 Chang fights as well.

Was Carbajal faded? He'd spent the interim smashing Chiquitas former title challengers with little hassle.(EDIT: Kim was trouncing him but my word what a KO) Chiquita showed up with the right gameplan to show Carbajal up as the plodder he was. Carbajal was shoddy after those fights of course but had it in him to knock Arce out (that is a big win IMO)

I think Chiquitas losses hurt him but he has a fair few high quality wins and title defences to see him rank over Yuh IMO, who I'd have top 5 admittedly.

Would you rank Yuh over Zapata? A knockout loss and a quit job on his 108 ledger?


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Was Carbajal faded? *He'd spent the interim smashing Chiquitas former title challengers with little hassle*. Chiquita showed up with the right gameplan to show Carbajal up as the plodder he was.


That's not strictly true though is it, Flea. Carbajal was trailing on all of the judges scorecards before nailing Kim with a left hand in the 7th to score the knockout. He looked poor.

If you can point me to one impressive performance from Carbajal against a live opponent that came after '93 I may be ready to reevaluate things.



> Would you rank Yuh over Zapata? A knockout loss and a quit job on his 108 ledger?


Zapata wasn't on the receiving end of three devastating knockout losses like Humberto was, but, now that you ask, I think I probably could rank Yuh ahead of Zapata if we're talking in terms of ability, longevity, achievements, and opposition faced. Yuh was arguably the most well-rounded of all the great champions at Light Fly. He had more consecutive title defenses than Zapata, who's win over Chang was bullshit, and Yuh can claim to have beaten every single fighter he ever stepped into the ring with. A lot is made of his opposition but is it really that bad? Joey Olivo, Leo Gamez, Hiroki Ioka, Rodolfo Blanco, Jose De Jesus, etc. All titlists at one point or another. De Marco, despite never holding a world title, gave Yuh hell in two blinding 15 rounders. He might have won a title if he was fighting one of the lesser champions at that time imho.


----------



## Flea Man

@Pedderrs Umm....Arce in Carbajals final fight.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> @Pedderrs Umm....Arce in Carbajals final fight.


Have you actually watched that fight? Carbajal was getting tool'd. The judges all had it the same at the time of the stoppage. 91-98 all in favour of Arce.


----------



## Flea Man

I don't disagree that Carbajal wasn't at his best when Gonzalez beat him.

Still, Chiquita went 2-1 in the series when it was all said and done.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Have you actually watched that fight? Carbajal was getting tool'd. The judges all had it the same at the time of the stoppage. 91-98 all in favour of Arce.


You are taking the piss? Yes he was but he'd scored a knockdown earlier on. A good scalp isn't just one you win easily. In fact I rate that win highly because Carbajal was so past his best and behind in the fight.


----------



## Flea Man

I hear you by the way; you said 'impressive performance'

I still think I've made my case well as to why I consider that an impressive showing.

And I edited as you were writing about Kwang Sun Kim. Carbajal had fallen into one dimensional banger mode that's for sure but Gonzalez wasn't exactly at his very best either.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> You are taking the piss? Yes he was but he'd scored a knockdown earlier on. A good scalp isn't just one you win easily. In fact I rate that win highly because Carbajal was so past his best and behind in the fight.


I asked you to point me to an impressive performance; not an impressive win. Carbajal was one of the hardest punches the 108lbs division has ever seen. He always had the equalizer and it got him out of trouble on that occasion in a fight he was on his way to losing lopsidedly.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I asked you to point me to an impressive performance; not an impressive win. Carbajal was one of the hardest punches the 108lbs division has ever seen. He always had the equalizer and it got him out of trouble on that occasion in a fight he was on his way to losing lopsidedly.


See above.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> I hear you by the way; you said 'impressive performance'
> 
> I still think I've made my case well as to why I consider that an impressive showing.
> 
> And I edited as you were writing about Kwang Sun Kim. Carbajal had fallen into one dimensional banger mode that's for sure but Gonzalez wasn't exactly at his very best either.


Yeah, that's all fair enough.

I personally wouldn't rank Gonzalez above Yuh, but I suppose the argument exists.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Yeah, that's all fair enough.
> 
> I personally wouldn't rank Gonzalez above Yuh, but I suppose the argument exists.


All fair.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> All fair.


And this obviously counts for nothing but Yuh UD12 Gonzalez. :good


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> And this obviously counts for nothing but Yuh UD12 Gonzalez. :good


Quite possibly. Yuh the more consistent operator over 12 wheres Chiquita could mix his approach up and had fast hands but generally wide puncher and lesser chin.

Yuh will outdo Kwang Sun Kim, who gave chiquita issues and was pretty basic (bloody good though)

Yuh is like a mini JCC imo


----------



## Flea Man

Yeah I'll take Yuh in a competitive fight. Negative Chiquita would be more hassle for him.


----------



## Bill Jincock

When talking about impressive Carbajal performances minus spectacular knockouts and impressive power, were there ever really any other than the one against a weight drained, raw Kittikassem?


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> When talking about impressive Carbajal performances minus spectacular knockouts and impressive power, were there ever really any other than the one against a weight drained, raw Kittikassem?


Exactly. His punch always bailed him out. First fight with Chiquita and Sun Kim as well as Arce.

He was a plodder with an iron chin and gravel fists.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> When talking about impressive Carbajal performances minus spectacular knockouts and impressive power, were there ever really any other than the one against a weight drained, raw Kittikassem?


Please read the Gushiken discussion and let us know your thoughts on his opposition. Maybe there were some gems I'm not as acquainted with.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Exactly. His punch always bailed him out. *First fight with Chiquita* and Sun Kim as well as Arce.
> 
> He was a plodder with an iron chin and gravel fists.


I don't agree with that.

It's fair to say that Carbajal's punching power bailed him out against Kim and Arce because he wasn't really in either of those fights whereas, despite the two knockdowns, Carbajal was pretty much fighting on even terms with Gonzalez in '93. He was only four points behind on all of the judges scorecards with the second half of the fight still to go.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I don't agree with that.
> 
> It's fair to say that Carbajal's punching power bailed him out against Kim and Arce because he wasn't really in either of those fights whereas, despite the two knockdowns, Carbajal was pretty much fighting on even terms with Gonzalez in '93. He was only four points behind on all of the judges scorecards with the second half of the fight still to go.


Fair when you take the rounds left to go into account but in terms of the actual ebb and flow he looked to be getting the worse of it and a step behind, though he was getting closer.

You know what I mean anyway.


----------



## Bill Jincock

As far as Gushiken goes, i agree with the broad criticism and praise\general consensus on him i've seen on the forums over the years.

That is: talented aesthetically pleasing boxer-puncher with mediocre overall competition and a disappointing career ending.

I don't really see him in need of a negative reassessing in the context of junior fly though.He doesn't seem to me to have the popularity\historian respect or cult following someone like Ricardo Lopez, Galaxy, gingpet etc had or even arguably what someone like Chang slowly achieved.It seems he's generally just mentioned as a top junior Flyweight mostly in the 4-7 range, which is perfectly fine imo.

I've not really seen him mentioned as someone who should be an all-time top 20\50....GREATEST LITTLE MAN EVER etc like you got with Lopez from time to time, or even that he's the greatest from his country or continent.

opposition wise, yeah it's mostly just your typical undeserving or mediocre junior title fare, the exceptions being Alfonso Lopez who had a last hurrah against him and looked rejuvenated having moved down in weight(he was mostly finished as a top contender after Gushiken waxed him though) and Martin Vargas.Though tbf it's been ages since i watched them, i remember Vargas faring well against Canto in at least one of their fights and he had a war with Betulio.He was another very dangerous puncher at Fly, but unlike Lopez did look as if maybe the move down in weight had done no favours.


----------



## Flea Man

Nah Vargas was a big fly anyway....next to Canto anyway.

I'll upload that today for anyone that hasn't seen it.


----------



## Pedderrs

Watching Shibata-Saldivar. Shibata's left hook was a blur.

How much do we think Saldivar had left in this fight?


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Watching Shibata-Saldivar. Shibata's left hook was a blur.
> 
> How much do we think Saldivar had left in this fight?


Not a huge amount. It was a miracle he beat two of the most talented boxers in the history of the division after a few years out.

Still, you wouldve thought Shibata was a level below them but his left was so quick and Saldivars style was based on volume and stamina. At that stage he wasn't that consistent with that approach and the best plan to beat Shibata was to punch his face in quickly.

Bad matchup for Saldivar at that stage for sure. But still, B+ win for Shibata, who did what he had to do.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Not a huge amount. It was a miracle he beat two of the most talented boxers in the history of the division after a few years out.
> 
> Still, you wouldve thought Shibata was a level below them but his left was so quick and Saldivars style was based on volume and stamina. At that stage he wasn't that consistent with that approach and the best plan to beat Shibata was to punch his face in quickly.
> 
> Bad matchup for Saldivar at that stage for sure. But still, B+ win for Shibata, who did what he had to do.


I also watched Ebihara-Accavallo II last night.

I wasn't scoring it on a RBR basis because it was so late and I wasn't at home, but I'm really not sure how I feel about the decision. I thought the better work was done by Ebihara.

Accavallo was Argentinian. The fight was staged in Argentina, and all three of the judges were Argentinian. FFS. atsch


----------



## Bill Jincock

Ebihara would have one of the better Flyweight records if the debatable world title decisions had gone his way.

unlucky fighter.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I also watched Ebihara-Accavallo II last night.
> 
> I wasn't scoring it on a RBR basis because it was so late and I wasn't at home, but I'm really not sure how I feel about the decision. I thought the better work was done by Ebihara.
> 
> Accavallo was Argentinian. The fight was staged in Argentina, and all three of the judges were Argentinian. FFS. atsch


Watch Tanabe beat the shit out of Accavallo on my channel. That'll make you feel better.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Watch Tanabe beat the shit out of Accavallo on my channel. That'll make you feel better.


:cheers

I don't know how some judges can sleep at night. These fighters dedicate their lives to the Sport, putting their bodies through all sorts of hell, and they can't even fight outside of their home countries without having to worry about overly patriotic, overly cuntish judges. Even when it's abundantly obvious that one of the judges is corrupt or can't score a fight to save their friggin' lives absolutely nothing is done about it. CJ Ross scores virtually fight she's ever judged a draw. She scored Mayweather-Alvarez a fuckin' draw.


----------



## Sweet Pea

Flea Man said:


> Well I have him 8-10 most likely. Not that different. EDIT: Just realised you meant thay you have a higher opinion of his ability than I do. My apologies.
> 
> Mind you, I still think he was class.
> 
> Would you rate Chiquita higher than Yuh?


I dunno, man. Rankings aren't really my forte anymore. If you look at resume than yeah, I'd say so. If you look at ability, I'm not sure. Chiquita was a good, tough little fighter, but his heart outweighed his durability. Yuh had both in spades.

The only thing I'm confident in is that Chang was the undisputed #1 Lt. Fly. After that it gets choppy. Probably Zapata at #2 , though. I'm probably the only person I know that thinks the first Chang/Zapata decision wasn't a bad one. Not that Zapata clearly won or anything, but I think it was an either way kinda fight. Wouldn't have complained if Chang got the decision, either.


----------



## sweet_scientist

Always felt Ebihara did better than Harada in their respective distance fights with Pone. Granted I've only seen about 11 rounds of each, but I felt Ebihara won a couple more than Harada did. 

As for Vargas-Canto, through Martin took that one by 3 points, though it was close and there were some swing rounds in there.


----------



## sweet_scientist

Anyone think Yuh could take Chang in a fight between them?

Over 15 I think that's an either way fight myself.


----------



## Lester1583

In my opinion, a better question would be, how faded does Chang has be to lose to Yuh?


----------



## sweet_scientist

Probably a tad less faded than when German Torres was giving him the business.


----------



## Flea Man

sweet_scientist said:


> Probably a tad less faded than when German Torres was giving him the business.


So not in the 1st or 3rd fights when Chang completely outclassed torres then?

Chang would beat Yuh on points. A workman versus a genius IMO.


----------



## sweet_scientist

Flea Man said:


> So not in the 1st or 3rd fights when Chang completely outclassed torres then?
> 
> Chang would beat Yuh on points. A workman versus a genius IMO.


Fair enough. Wouldn't be the first time a less talented fighter got the better of a scrap though. Styles make fights. e.g. Olivares-Herrera, Arguello-Ramirez. And sometimes better talents flake out like Park did against Oguma. Chang was not prone like that to that level of flakiness, but lesser guys than Yuh did take it to him during his best years...


----------



## Flea Man

sweet_scientist said:


> Fair enough. Wouldn't be the first time a less talented fighter got the better of a scrap though. Styles make fights. e.g. Olivares-Herrera, Arguello-Ramirez. And sometimes better talents flake out like Park did against Oguma. Chang was not prone like that to that level of flakiness, but lesser guys than Yuh did take it to him during his best years...


Oh, of course I agree with all of this was just taking it as Chang Vs Yuh rather than a general view of how styles play out.

Do you see my comparison of Yuh to Chavez?

Still, it'd take a massive bomb out of nowhere to beat Chang at his very best IMO.

I will upload Canto-Vargas tonight; Vargas gave a spirited showing but Canto well outclassed him IMO (been a while since I watched it properly) in their first fight, unless you've got their second and I ain't.

Oh, I have Griffith-Benvenuti I :good Cheers for confirming though.


----------



## sweet_scientist

Flea Man said:


> Oh, of course I agree with all of this was just taking it as Chang Vs Yuh rather than a general view of how styles play out.
> 
> Do you see my comparison of Yuh to Chavez?
> 
> Still, it'd take a massive bomb out of nowhere to beat Chang at his very best IMO.
> 
> I will upload Canto-Vargas tonight; Vargas gave a spirited showing but Canto well outclassed him IMO (been a while since I watched it properly) in their first fight, unless you've got their second and I ain't.
> 
> Oh, I have Griffith-Benvenuti I :good Cheers for confirming though.


Quite like the Yuh-Chavez comparison. They both had that tidy way of sifting through opponents' punches and 'zeroing in' with hard straight shots of their own. Don't know if Yuh's skull was as thick as Chavez's, but he had a fair sized bonce for a flyweight


----------



## sweet_scientist

On the Chavez theme, I think Yuh's one of the sport's most underrated body punchers. He was tremendous in that way. If he had heavier hands he would have debilitated guys much like Chavez did to the body.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Yuh is like a mini JCC imo


And he'd lose to Pernell Zapata:yep



Flea Man said:


> Griffith


I still can't comprehend it.

Not only did Cokes beat El Feo (which is unbelievable) but according to some sources he knocked him down 3 times:scaredas:

How is that even possible???


----------



## sweet_scientist

Lester1583 said:


> And he'd lose to Pernell Zapata:yep


Definitely think he'd struggle with Hilario. I have a hard time envisioning anyone walking through Yuh with aggression, but a defensive minimalist is definitely the type to exploit him.

Assuming a non-flaky Zapata performance, it's a tough match up for Yuh.



> I still can't comprehend it.
> 
> Not only did Cokes beat El Feo (which is unbelievable) but according to some sources he knocked him down 3 times:scaredas:
> 
> How is that even possible???


Perhaps he had outgrown welterweight by that point and fought a little drained.

Cokes was one of the quicker fighters he would have faced though, a change from many of the bigger guys he would have become accustomed to facing at middle...


----------



## Lester1583

sweet_scientist said:


> Perhaps he had outgrown welterweight by that point and fought a little drained.
> Cokes was one of the quicker fighters he would have faced though, a change from many of the bigger guys he would have become accustomed to facing at middle...


No, I was talking about the first fight.

Although Cokes was described as a total unknown prior to the fight.

Maybe Rodriguez wasn't expecting Cokes to be that good?


----------



## sweet_scientist

Lester1583 said:


> No, I was talking about the first fight.
> 
> Although Cokes was described as a total unknown prior to the fight.
> 
> Maybe Rodriguez wasn't expecting Cokes to be that good?


Teaches me to butt in. Should have thoroughly read through the thread to make sure which fight you were discussing. :good


----------



## Flea Man

Well Rodriguez easily beat him in the second fight.


----------



## Pedderrs

sweet_scientist said:


> On the Chavez theme, I think Yuh's one of the sport's most underrated body punchers. He was tremendous in that way. If he had heavier hands he would have debilitated guys much like Chavez did to the body.


Hisashi Tokushima agrees with you.


----------



## Pedderrs

Ohashi-Chang II.

Yes!!!


----------



## Pedderrs

My god... That was awesome.

In terms of flush bombs landing, that was way better than Carbajal-Gonzalez I.


----------



## jorodz

heading for a bar date with the wife. gonna watch some fights and drink some pints...any suggestions?


----------



## Pedderrs

jorodz said:


> heading for a bar date with the wife. gonna watch some fights and drink some pints...any suggestions?


You watched Chang-Ohashi II? Try and fall asleep. I dare ya.. I double dare ya, motherfucker!


----------



## Lester1583

jorodz said:


> heading for a bar date with the wife. gonna watch some fights and drink some pints...any suggestions?


Derrick Jefferson - Morris Harris

J.C. Gonzalez - Julian Letterlough

Soo Hwan Hong - Hector Carrasquilla


----------



## jorodz

Pedderrs said:


> You watched Chang-Ohashi II? Try and fall asleep. I dare ya.. I double dare ya, motherfucker!


:cheers if it's good enough for that badass motherfucker, good enough for me


----------



## jorodz

Lester1583 said:


> Derrick Jefferson - Morris Harris
> 
> J.C. Gonzalez - Julian Letterlough
> 
> Soo Hwan Hong - Hector Carrasquilla


jefferson and harris is loaded up. thanks all. gonna try and watch some flyweight action to while i'm there


----------



## Pedderrs

jorodz said:


> jefferson and harris is loaded up. thanks all. gonna try and watch some flyweight action to while i'm there


After watching Chang-Ohashi II, it's not too difficult to imagine another plodder in Michael Carbajal going one better and putting Chang out for the ten count.


----------



## jorodz

Just finished Leonard vs Hearns 1 for (shamefully) the first time. Good fight, obvious MASSIVE skill level by both but dont see the hype. Bit of a letdown honestly. It was technical masterpiece by both by almost all the excitement was in the last two rounds. Leonard could be BRUTAL and that volley in the 13th us one of the best ive seen


----------



## Michael

Watched Yuri Arbachakov Vs. Muangchai Kittikasem 1 today

What can I say, Arbachakov is a superb fighter, no doubt about it. He's a lovely boxer-puncher with great timing and counter punching skills, speed, power, lateral movement and the mindset of a champion. Cant believe ive never seen him fight before. He was superb from start to finish utilizing a very good jab and his timing to nail the thai with every punch in the book. He was clearly the superior man through, and even though the Thai would occasionally become aggressive land a few shots and seem to gain some slight momentum, it wasn't long before Arbachkov's accurate volley's put him on the back foot once again. Case in point, the third round where Arbachov gets dropped by a lovely right hand by Kittikasem. By the time the rounds half way over Arbachkov goes into beast mode, dropping Kittikasem with a left hook, and then chasing him around the ring repeatedly nailing him with hard shots. The fight would continue under this trend of Arbachkov seeming in full control, even while the thai has his moments of sporadic success.

The ending is fucking brilliant to btw, with Kittikasem walking straight into a perfectly timed right hand from Yuri and getting sparked out cold. Immediately reminded me of Pacquiao-Marquez 4. After that performance im definitely going to check out more of Arbachkov for sure


----------



## LittleRed

jorodz said:


> Just finished Leonard vs Hearns 1 for (shamefully) the first time. Good fight, obvious MASSIVE skill level by both but dont see the hype. Bit of a letdown honestly. It was technical masterpiece by both by almost all the excitement was in the last two rounds. Leonard could be BRUTAL and that volley in the 13th us one of the best ive seen


It's alright. I've never masturbated using tinsel. It's cool.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> After watching Chang-Ohashi II, it's not too difficult to imagine another plodder in Michael Carbajal going one better and putting Chang out for the ten count.


Not difficult to imagine Carbajal sparking anyone but Ohashi II is not indicative of Changs quality if we're being fair, is it?

Great, great fight though, didn't you upload it to youtube in top quality a while back?


----------



## doug.ie

was watching tyson vs buster mathis jr last night.
wasnt sure if i was watching tyson with bad timing after prison time or mathis a human fish who was extremely hard to land on for anyone that night....i concluded probably a mix of both


----------



## Vic

Watched Arguello vs Olivares again, yesterday. Arguello didn´t have it easy as I remembered, Ruben even landed a pretty good shot in round and landed many punches after.
Just a bit outsized though.....even though Ruben landed many punches, ARguello´s defense using some parrying skills is nice to watch.


----------



## Sweet Pea

Sportofkings said:


> Watched Yuri Arbachakov Vs. Muangchai Kittikasem 1 today
> 
> What can I say, Arbachakov is a superb fighter, no doubt about it. He's a lovely boxer-puncher with great timing and counter punching skills, speed, power, lateral movement and the mindset of a champion. Cant believe ive never seen him fight before. He was superb from start to finish utilizing a very good jab and his timing to nail the thai with every punch in the book. He was clearly the superior man through, and even though the Thai would occasionally become aggressive land a few shots and seem to gain some slight momentum, it wasn't long before Arbachkov's accurate volley's put him on the back foot once again. Case in point, the third round where Arbachov gets dropped by a lovely right hand by Kittikasem. By the time the rounds half way over Arbachkov goes into beast mode, dropping Kittikasem with a left hook, and then chasing him around the ring repeatedly nailing him with hard shots. The fight would continue under this trend of Arbachkov seeming in full control, even while the thai has his moments of sporadic success.
> 
> The ending is fucking brilliant to btw, with Kittikasem walking straight into a perfectly timed right hand from Yuri and getting sparked out cold. Immediately reminded me of Pacquiao-Marquez 4. After that performance im definitely going to check out more of Arbachkov for sure


That's his best performance, if I'm being honest. How could it not be? He has plenty of struggles in other fights and doesn't look quite as flawless. The rematch with Kittikasem is more of the same, though. And his first fight with Sasakul is a great two way technical fight. Check it out.


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> That's his best performance, if I'm being honest. How could it not be? He has plenty of struggles in other fights and doesn't look quite as flawless. The rematch with Kittikasem is more of the same, though. And his first fight with Sasakul is a great two way technical fight. Check it out.


Great post.


----------



## Michael

Sweet Pea said:


> That's his best performance, if I'm being honest. How could it not be? He has plenty of struggles in other fights and doesn't look quite as flawless. The rematch with Kittikasem is more of the same, though. And his first fight with Sasakul is a great two way technical fight. Check it out.


Not seen anything else on Yuri, so I cant comment any further on how good he is. But that was a performance and a half against Kittikasem , definitely left me with a positive impression of him. For sure though mate, Ill give his first fight with Sasakul a watch tonight.


----------



## Pedderrs

It wasn't terribly difficult to look good against Muangchai Kittikasem. Carbajal even managed it.


----------



## Bill Jincock

the Kittikassem Arbachakov fought was a much improved fighter from the weight drained, unsure, raw looking fighter that Carbajal dismantled though.he could actually fight like a competent boxer-puncher by then, with a nice jab and decent skills.

Muangchai was never great, but he improved a lot after he moved up and gained more experience.The second Chitalada fight was probably him starting to really hit his peak, which was then cut short by Yuri.At light fly he was just a limited pure puncher that often fought overly negatively.

i do think it was a shame Carbajal started to stray away from his more rounded approach after that fight though.At that point he was using a nice educated stiff jab and setting his shots up well, showing far more patience and a much keener eye for punchpicking than he later did.A fight between that carbajal and Yuri would be very entertaining.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> It wasn't terribly difficult to look good against Muangchai Kittikasem. Carbajal even managed it.


Very weight drained.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> the Kittikassem Arbachakov fought was a much improved fighter from the weight drained, unsure, raw looking fighter that Carbajal dismantled though.he could actually fight like a competent boxer-puncher by then, with a nice jab and decent skills.
> 
> Muangchai was never great, but he improved a lot after he moved up and gained more experience.The second Chitalada fight was probably him starting to really hit his peak, which was then cut short by Yuri.At light fly he was just a limited pure puncher that often fought overly negatively.
> 
> i do think it was a shame Carbajal started to stray away from his more rounded approach after that fight though.At that point he was using a nice educated stiff jab and setting his shots up well, showing far more patience and a much keener eye for punchpicking than he later did.A fight between that carbajal and Yuri would be very entertaining.


My word in the second fight with...whats his name, Kittikasem runs for the whole fight then suddenly demolishes his man...some filipino light fly titlist. Awful performance until the stoppage.


----------



## Bill Jincock

How do you rate Muangchai as a puncher flea? he's probably not up there with the very best of fly punchers, but i've always thought he could really crack.One of the better punchers of the 80s\90s scene anyway.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> How do you rate Muangchai as a puncher flea? he's probably not up there with the very best of fly punchers, but i've always thought he could really crack.One of the better punchers of the 80s\90s scene anyway.


He could definitely crack. Power was his main asset, think that's why he was convinced to turn over in the first place, wasn't any great shakes as a Muay Thai fighter (not much experience as far as I know) but Sot and Changs legs were gone so they were easier to hit.

In short, if you ain't got the legs to stay away you're in trouble.

Agree he was at his best at fly though. Although as you say he'd tidied himself up a bit at 112, fairly measured power-stalker, basic but decent jab.

By the way, how f'n savage is the second Arbachakov fight :rofl Poor bastard was Kittikasem, the ghost of Chavez-Taylor haunting Richard Steele a bit methinks


----------



## Bill Jincock

The fix was in that night:smile, but Arbachakov was able to get the KO and avoid being robbed.

Steele was dodgy as hell.His refeereing actions might be prefectly defensible against Taylor in terms of strict analysis, but there's no way i'll be convinced he wasn't just thinking first and foremost about saving Chavez' arse.Probably got a nice bonus for it too.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> The fix was in that night:smile, but Arbachakov was able to get the KO and avoid being robbed.


Yuri was impossible to distract.

Compared to him Monzon is Zab Judah.


----------



## Sweet Pea

I thought Kittikasem looked pretty polished against Alberto Jimenez. Another good technical fight. Jimenez was a solid fighter, too. Been a minute since I watched it, though.


----------



## Flea Man

Sweet Pea said:


> I thought Kittikasem looked pretty polished against Alberto Jimenez. Another good technical fight. Jimenez was a solid fighter, too. Been a minute since I watched it, though.


Jiminez gave him a good go IIRC. I'll upload it to youtube tonight so others can see it.


----------



## Vic

Some interesting Bonavena clips, that I never have seen before.










Pires, good HW, that one who fought Foreman.

@Phantom


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Very weight drained.


Probably no worse than he looked against a borderline shot Jung Koo Chang in '91. Chang looked like he'd blow over if you breathed on him heavy, and yet he still managed to give Kit a tough night's work and almost stop him. Bizarre fight.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Probably no worse than he looked against a borderline shot Jung Koo Chang in '91. Chang looked like he'd blow over if you breathed on him heavy, and yet he still managed to give Kit a tough night's work and almost stop him. Bizarre fight.


Chang deserved to beat Chitalada the fight before. I think 112 gave him a little extra boost to not look as bad as he did against Gonzalez, who Chang still gave a good go against and didn't get thag badly stunned or dropped as younger 108lbers did against Chiquita.

Kittikasem was always pretty shaky chin wise admittedly.


----------



## Flea Man

@Pedderrs You seen Sahaprom-Chuwattana?


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> @Pedderrs You seen Sahaprom-Chuwattana?


I haven't, breh. Should I?

I posted your fights this morning by the way. I haven't labelled any of the discs so you're going to have to play them to see what they are. My handwriting is terrible. I thought you could do a better job. Also, you probably don't need telling, but I would urge you to back the fights up on a HD as soon as possible. DVDs are not going to last you a lifetime and so the files should be backed up just in case the DVD media starts playing up due to age and shit. Just sayin'.


----------



## Michael

Watched Juan Francisco Estrada vs Roman Gonzalez last night. Really good back and forth war, that maybe lacked the consistent action to be called great. Quite a few rounds were very close and could have gone either way, with the fight playing into Gonzalez's hands when he managed to come forward, get up close and let go combinations to the head an body, particularly against the ropes. The rangier Estrada worked a lot better when he had a little space to work and when he let his punches go he looked very impressive. He had the superior work rate for the most part and he looked in the ascendancy after the first half of the fight. Gonzalez came into his own a little as the fight wore on though and did just enough to nick a close decision, though he was getting his ass beat by Estrada in the final round. Anyways a very good technically skilled battle between two of the best fighters in the lower weight classes. Personally I had it a draw, and wouldn't argue with either man getting the decision, though if I had a gun to my head, id probably have sided towards Estrada as the victor.

Looking forward to a rematch at some point between these two at flyweight, but I think Estrada will win if they ever fight again. He's looked terrific in his last two fights and against solid competition. Cant see Gonzalez being as effective at a higher weight class, and after the battle that the then inexperienced Estrada gave him here, he'll fancy his chances.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I haven't, breh. Should I?
> 
> I posted your fights this morning by the way. I haven't labelled any of the discs so you're going to have to play them to see what they are. My handwriting is terrible. I thought you could do a better job. Also, you probably don't need telling, but I would urge you to back the fights up on a HD as soon as possible. DVDs are not going to last you a lifetime and so the files should be backed up just in case the DVD media starts playing up due to age and shit. Just sayin'.


Always do, for that reason :good

Yes you should I think you'd love it. Have you seen much of Veeraphol? I reckon you'd love him.


----------



## Flea Man

Thank you shit loads by the way.

What about the one I shared with you @Pedderrs ? Any thoughts?


----------



## Phantom

Vic said:


> Some interesting Bonavena clips, that I never have seen before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pires, good HW, that one who fought Foreman.
> 
> @Phantom


Thanks Vic, interestingly enough, Daville also fought the young Foreman...I think he was the first guy to lose a decision to Foreman. It was an 8 rounder, and Foreman never came close to decking Davilla.


----------



## Vic

@Pedderrs, the fight we talked about days ago. Somebody already posted it on yt.


----------



## boranbkk

Flea Man said:


> Always do, for that reason :good
> 
> Yes you should I think you'd love it. Have you seen much of Veeraphol? I reckon you'd love him.


Veeraphol = ATG warrior.


----------



## Flea Man

boranbkk said:


> Veeraphol = ATG warrior.


No doubt. He was ANCIENT by the time he turned over so his longevity in boxing is even more phenomenal.
@Vic Jofre-Legra has been posted on there by someone as well.


----------



## Vic

Flea Man said:


> No doubt. He was ANCIENT by the time he turned over so his longevity in boxing is even more phenomenal.
> 
> @*Vic* Jofre-Legra has been posted on there by someone as well.


I know, I sent you a PM about it. I was searching a lot of channels on yt yesterday and found it. Some of these channels are uploading stuff (some channels on a daily basis) quite *a lot* in recent months, youtube is on fire about uploading old fights these days.

Is this rare ?? I certainly didn´t see this before, footage of Ortiz vs Ramos.


----------



## Pedderrs

I just watched Veeraphol Sahaprom-Toshiaki Nishioka I.

There's not really a lot to say about this. The only real success Nishioka had in the fight was at the beginning of the 9th round where he landed a nice straight left. He tried to follow it up with a combination of punches, most of which missed, and then normality was soon restored. Sahaprom got the better of the remainder of that round and then took the last three to win 120-109 on my card. 

As I say, there's not too much to say about the action itself, but the showier punch throughout the whole 12 rounds was easily Sahaprom's straight right. Nishioka was a very straight up fighter and just couldn't get out of the way of it. The fight got less and less competitive as the rounds wore on with Nishioka getting tired from all of his movement and failed offense, whereas Sahaprom, having not expended any energy at all in the early rounds, began to step in with his offense; throwing more shots and pushing Nishioka on the backfoot.

You could be mistaken for thinking that defeating the likes of Toshiaki Nishioka by such a considerable margin is some kind of impressive feat, but this fight took place in 2000 when Nishioka was little more than a good athlete with decent hand speed. That's really all he was at this point and it was nowhere near enough to defeat a talented fighter like Veeraphol Sahaprom. A far more one-sided contest than the three scorecards would have you believe.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I just watched Veeraphol Sahaprom-Toshiaki Nishioka I.
> 
> There's not really a lot to say about this. The only real success Nishioka had in the fight was at the beginning of the 9th round where he landed a nice straight left. He tried to follow it up with a combination of punches, most of which missed, and then normality was soon restored. Sahaprom got the better of the remainder of that round and then took the last three to win 120-109 on my card.
> 
> As I say, there's not too much to say about the action itself, but the showier punch throughout the whole 12 rounds was easily Sahaprom's straight right. Nishioka was a very straight up fighter and just couldn't get out of the way of it. The fight got less and less competitive as the rounds wore on with Nishioka getting tired from all of his movement and failed offense, whereas Sahaprom, having not expended any energy at all in the early rounds, began to step in with his offense; throwing more shots and pushing Nishioka on the backfoot.
> 
> You could be mistaken for thinking that defeating the likes of Toshiaki Nishioka by such a considerable margin is some kind of impressive feat, but this fight took place in 2000 when Nishioka was little more than a good athlete with decent hand speed. That's really all he was at this point and it was nowhere near enough to defeat a talented fighter like Veeraphol Sahaprom. A far more one-sided contest than the three scorecards would have you believe.


You should see the 4th. Incredible display of Veeraphols right.

Anyway, Sahaprom-Chuwatana :good


----------



## Pedderrs

I love some of the fighters the country has produced down the years, but fuck fighting in Japan.

I was just watching Hiroki Ioka-Napa Kiatwanchai I and they stopped the fight 30 seconds prematurely in the 12th round because Ioka was looking like he was about to be stopped. Blatant corruption. The fight went to the judges' scorecards and was scored a draw. The fight was never a draw anyhow; Ioka lost the bloody fight. He would have probably been stopped if the bell wasn't rung 30 seconds prematurely. Unbelievable.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I love some of the fighters the country has produced down the years, but fuck fighting in Japan.
> 
> I was just watching Hiroki Ioka-Napa Kiatwanchai I and they stopped the fight 30 seconds prematurely in the 12th round because Ioka was looking like he was about to be stopped. Blatant corruption. The fight went to the judges' scorecards and was scored a draw. The fight was never a draw anyhow; Ioka lost the bloody fight. He would have probably been stopped if the bell wasn't rung 30 seconds prematurely. Unbelievable.


You should see Shibata-Echegary :-( atsch


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> You should see Shibata-Echegary :-( atsch


I watched Shibata-Marcel the other night.

Why wasn't there a rematch, Flea?


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I watched Shibata-Marcel the other night.
> 
> Why wasn't there a rematch, Flea?


I'm guessing here but I reckon the obvious: Marcel was high risk/low reward.

Then Shibata lost his title in weird circumstances but more on that later....


----------



## Bill Jincock

Sahaprom at his best was the best Bantam of the mid-90s to present day imo.Not necessarily standing out in terms of acomplishments, but just the best fighter.

When he's at his best he reminds me quite a bit of kalambay.he's not the slip and counter fighter or as much of a mover as kalambay was, but his approach and rhythm when he's just picking away at ring centre are like a more unfussy textbook box-fighting version.

He'd handle Rigondeaux in a chessmatch imo.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> Sahaprom at his best was the best Bantam of the mid-90s to present day imo.Not necessarily standing out in terms of acomplishments, but just the best fighter.
> 
> When he's at his best he reminds me quite a bit of kalambay.he's not the slip and counter fighter or as much of a mover as kalambay was, but his approach and rhythm when he's just picking away at ring centre are like a more unfussy textbook box-fighting version.
> 
> He'd handle Rigondeaux in a chessmatch imo.


He could throw a right hand lead with alarming regularity and precision.

Some will laugh at your Rigo prediction but Veeraphol was equally accomplished coming into the game; one of the greats in his sport with nearly 200 professional bouts.

I agree he was the best bantam. A shame for him he never got Rafa in the ring.


----------



## Lester1583

Archer - Eubank would have ended in one of the most one-sided draws in British boxing history.


----------



## Vic

Bill Jincock said:


> Sahaprom at his best was the best Bantam of the mid-90s to present day imo.Not necessarily standing out in terms of acomplishments, but just the best fighter.
> 
> When he's at his best he reminds me quite a bit of kalambay.he's not the slip and counter fighter or as much of a mover as kalambay was, but his approach and rhythm when he's just picking away at ring centre are like a more unfussy textbook box-fighting version.
> 
> He'd handle Rigondeaux in a chessmatch imo.





Flea Man said:


> He could throw a right hand lead with alarming regularity and precision.
> 
> Some will laugh at your Rigo prediction but Veeraphol was equally accomplished coming into the game; one of the greats in his sport with nearly 200 professional bouts.
> 
> I agree he was the best bantam. A shame for him he never got Rafa in the ring.


What do you guys think of Hasegawa ??


----------



## Jdempsey85

Jimmy wylde vs Pancho villa

Brutal looking fight and ended violently.The Pancho villa back hand,was this allowed back then?(picture of the fight a bit grainy)you can just make out wylde complain to the ref.


----------



## Bill Jincock

I like Hasegawa, he's a decent and very exciting fighter, and unlucky for him his flaws were exposed just as he started gaining more widespread acclaim.

Made his name against an ancient faded Sahaprom and he'd looked good with that string of early stoppages going into the Montiel fight, and had a fair amount of followers on esb starting to hype him as an excellent fighter, but if he was really a very good fighter he should have been able to beat a past prime Montiel and Gonzalez(solid opponents better than 99% of what he had faced) clearly.

Instead he showed a real lack of focus and durability.I was actually surprised at the stoppage against Gonzalez...he was definitely hurt, but it was early in the fight and in japan.

A quick busy fighter with decent power and skills, but nothing too special in the latter two departments...good straight punches like most japanese stylists.He never looked that strong either and you have to question if he'll come back from those two losses now.


----------



## Pedderrs

Again, you have to love Japan.

Yuh clearly wins the round, Ioka walks back to his corner with his hands in the air.

Yuh out-lands Ioka 3 to 1, but the Japanese broadcast only shows shots landed by Ioka on the replays.

One judge scores the fight 114-114.


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> What do you guys think of Hasegawa ??


Typical Japanese southpaw; quick hands and coukd go from patient to bkitzkrieg as soon as he hurt his man!

Sneaky power punchers were his undoing. Medel would be a nightmare for him I think.

Had balance issues which he sorted out and really found his power once he'd won the title. Quick stoppage of Malinga probably his best win outside of an ancient Veeraphol (50 really considering how many high level fights in two sports that man had been in, a veteran in Muay Thai and a veteran in boxing unlike most legendary Nak Muay)

Funnily enough an even more ancient Veeraphol is probably Malingas best win too.

I really, really liked Hasegawa. I rate the Burgos win highly as a figgt, solid prospect/contender type is Burgos, even then and Hasegawa fought well.

Gonzalez is a massive puncher. Montiel had looked poor for a fair few fights before Hasegawa then that fight and one of the Concepcions that are not very good and everyone is convinced Montiel is amazing.

He wasn't, and Hasegawa, tough and talented though he was, just wasn't as brilliant as we all hoped he'd be.

Still, bloody, bloody good but not as great a bantam champ as Veeraphol IMO.


----------



## Vic

Thanks, I remember the Montiel hype, I even bought a little of it......his punch (Montiel´s) was world class imo though.


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> Thanks, I remember the Montiel hype, I even bought a little of it......his punch (Montiel´s) was world class imo though.


He was World Class, just past his best by that time


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Kalule...





Flea Man said:


> Kalule?





Bill Jincock said:


> Kalule!!!


Who was more exciting Onizuka or Tatsuyoshi?


----------



## doug.ie

just watched mickey walker v max schmelling.

amazing to see ex-welter champ walker up at heavyweight boxing a man who had very controversially lost the world heavyweight title in a split decision in his previous fight.

walker took some huge shots in first 2 rounds...tough man.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Who was more exciting Onizuka or Tatsuyoshi?


Onizuka.
Tbh, I don´t know who is Tatsusoshi though :think these asian names are all confusing to me...


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> Onizuka.
> Tbh, I don´t know who is Tatsusoshi though :think these asian names are all confusing to me...


Yes you do! Fought Paulie Ayala, Sahaprom twice, won bantam title after only a few fights, one eye....


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Yes you do! Fought Paulie Ayala, Sahaprom twice, won bantam title after only a few fights, one eye....


Let me know when those fights arrive, Flea Man. I want mad props for the favour.


----------



## Vic

Flea Man said:


> Yes you do! Fought Paulie Ayala, Sahaprom twice, won bantam title after only a few fights, one eye....


Joichiro Tatsuyoshi, I remember him, from the Victor Rabanales and the Singwancha Sirimongkol fights, which I remember as good fights but not the same level of the Onizuka vs Lee types, it didn´t stay in my mind as the Onizuka fights....there is a Onizuka sparring session, in rayrobinson333 I believe, that is a thing of beauty too, you can see his level closely in there and I think Onizuka could have been one of the best asian fighters ever, no idea why he had such a short career.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Let me know when those fights arrive, Flea Man. I want mad props for the favour.


I'm giving you mad props now bruh!


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> I'm giving you mad props now bruh!


The mad props will mean more once you've received the goods. It's like Christmas all over again, and I'm Santa. Very rewarding.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Onizuka.


Tatsuyoshi - Singwancha will make you change your mind.

Just saw your post...

It didn't?! But how is it possible?!!!


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Tatsuyoshi - Singwancha will make you change your mind.


I did watch that, it´s not as amazing as Onizuka vs Lee IMO.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> no idea why he had such a short career.


Eye injury.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Eye injury.


Nah, he was afraid to fight Hiroshi.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Eye injury.


Really ? 
That would make sense.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Nah, he was afraid to fight Hiroshi.


These pathetic weaklings have disgraced the most prestigious division in boxing.

They all were lucky The Immortal One has retired.


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> Really ?
> That would make sense.












He wanted none of it.

On a serious note, have you all seen Kawashima-Lee? That was a good fuckin' fight, too.


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> He wanted none of it.
> 
> On a serious note, have you all seen Kawashima-Lee? That was a good fuckin' fight, too.


No, never watched that one.


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> No, never watched that one.


Seung Koo Lee was a decent operator who came fairly close at winning a title in his two fights with Kawashima and Onizuka. Gerry Penalosa gave him a good beating, but he hadn't been in a ring for two years before that fight. He was done.

I'll see if I can upload the Kawashima-Lee fight on my YT channel this weekend. It's a good one.


----------



## Vic

Pedderrs said:


> Seung Koo Lee was a decent operator who came fairly close at winning a title in his two fights with Kawashima and Onizuka. Gerry Penalosa gave him a good beating, but he hadn't been in a ring for two years before that fight. He was done.
> 
> I'll see if I can upload the Kawashima-Lee fight on my YT channel this weekend. It's a good one.


What´s your YT channel, man ??


----------



## Pedderrs

Vic said:


> What´s your YT channel, man ??


I haven't uploaded anything yet bro. I will tell you just as soon as I do.

In other news, I just watched Myung Woo Yuh-Hiroki Ioka I.

I feel this fight was made to be a lot closer than it should have been due to Yuh's tactics in the early goings. He seemed to give the opening rounds away by trying to box at mid-range with the taller, rangier Hiroki Ioka. I'm not sure why he chose to do that, perhaps he wanted to prove he could, but it certainly wasn't working for him as he was constantly on the end of the jab. By the mid rounds, however, Yuh upped the pace considerably and started pressuring Ioka; moving forward, throwing a lot of punches, and bullying Ioka in the clinches. Yuh was a great pressure fighter; he had a way of getting off with his offense without making himself an easy target. Ioka was puzzled and struggled to win a round after the 6th on my card.

116-113 Yuh


----------



## Michael

Matthew Hilton vs Doug Dewitt- Not a bad fight between a past his prime Hilton and the long time fringe contender Dewitt. Hilton started well enough, coming forward and landing big blows, but some successive shots of Dewitt opened up a huge swelling on Hilton by the end of the third round which impaired Hiltons vision for the rest of the fight, and eventually turned it into a one sided beating of brave Hilton during the second half of the fight. Matthew gets pulled out by his dad after the end of the 11th. Probably the finest win of Dewitt's career all things considered.

Just another thing on Doug Dewitt, anyone else remember when he showboated with his hands down by his side against Thomas Hearns during their fight, and let Hearns tee off on him? What a fucking nutjob :lol: Always had serious props for him since I saw that.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Juan meza vs Lupe pintor

How tough was meza the last round looked like he was knee deep in sand,he would not go down.Considering he was washed up what a win for Pintor,those lefts to the body wow.A great win for the mexican hero Pintor.

Terrific Fight

Wassup with mexicans with those left hooks to the body did they teach them at school?


----------



## Jdempsey85

Ali vs Jimmy young

Embarrassing Worse Fix Ever.


I watched this for the 1st time last night,im still like :huh,anyone who has a case for ali winning this lets hear it.
Jose Napoles vs Armando Muniz was top of my worse fix/robbery/decision list not anymore.Ali punched air alllllll night,after 5 rounds he didnt land a punch,yet Cosell after 8 said ''this is a very close fight indeed'':-(.

Jimmy Young made ali become the aggressor for a change something he's not used to and it showed,ali's lead right was non existent he just could not solve Mr young who was in a different class throughout countering with ease

Cosell and the Ali fans who had this close can fuck right off


----------



## Pedderrs

I watched Veeraphol smash Tatsuyoshi last night, not once; but twice. Clinical.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> I watched Veeraphol smash Tatsuyoshi last night, not once; but twice. Clinical.


Tatsuyoshi was way past his prime and has suffered multiple injuries by the time he met Sahaprom.

Not that Sahaprom wasn't good enough to beat a prime Tatsuyoshi anyway.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I watched Veeraphol smash Tatsuyoshi last night, not once; but twice. Clinical.


The poor Jap was near blind by then but Veeraphol was always a class above.

For an exciting shootout watch Veeraphol Vs Nana Konadu.

For a technical chess match of the very highest quality watch Veeraphol Vs Daorung.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> The poor Jap was near blind by then but Veeraphol was always a class above.
> 
> For an exciting shootout watch Veeraphol Vs Nana Konadu.
> 
> For a technical chess match of the very highest quality watch Veeraphol Vs Daorung.


I'm really enjoying Veeraphol Sahaprom, Flea. I think he's an excellent operator. I look forward to seeing more of him.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Tatsuyoshi was a hilarious fighter.

he seemed to think he was a master boxer-puncher in there and was always trying smooth head-slips with his hands held at his stomach and giving loads of upper body angles, as if he could produce counters from any position....while the opponent's punches inevitably just crashed into his face repeatedly anyway and the bout would turn into a back and forth war every time.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Tatsuyoshi was a hilarious fighter.


Tatsuyoshi was a madman:



> He is known to train exceptionally hard. Trainers used to keep their young boxers away from Tatsuyoshi, not because Tatsuyoshi might injure the younger boxers in a sparring session, but because the younger fighters might give up after seeing the enormous amount of time Tatsuyoshi spent training.


Damn!


----------



## Pedderrs

Tatsuyoshi was an incredibly popular fighter in Japan; the crowd were still chanting his name 10-20 minutes after being knocked out in his rematch with Veeraphol.

And here's the finish in their first fight.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I'm really enjoying Veeraphol Sahaprom, Flea. I think he's an excellent operator. I look forward to seeing more of him.


I'm very glad. Thought you'd like him.

Do watch the Chuvatana fight. It's a beaut".


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Tatsuyoshi was an incredibly popular fighter in Japan; the crowd were still chanting his name 10-20 minutes after being knocked out in his rematch with Veeraphol.
> 
> And here's the finish in their first fight.


I love Veeraphol. EDIT: He looks a bit Joe Louis-esque there. The quintessential tidy Thai.

Greatest Thai of all time (in boxing)

His longevity is incomprehensible.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Greatest Thai of all time (in boxing)


Pedders already likes Sahaprom no need for ridiculous statements.

As good Sahaprom was he's not even a top-5.

Even Sahaprom himself would disagree with you - he knows who is the greatest Thai fighter of all time.

We all know.


----------



## Flea Man

Nah, Veeraphol is greater than 'Sugar' Saensak :yep


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Nah, Veeraphol Greatest Thai of all time












You should be ashamed of yourself, Flea.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> You should be ashamed of yourself, Flea.


Nahhhh. Pone ain't an ATG even if sweetboxing thinkks he's the #9 ATG fly :rofl atsch


----------



## boranbkk

Pedderrs said:


> And here's the finish in their first fight.


Quality.



Lester1583 said:


> Pedders already likes Sahaprom no need for ridiculous statements.
> 
> As good Sahaprom was he's not even a top-5.
> 
> Even Sahaprom himself would disagree with you - he knows who is the greatest Thai fighter of all time.
> 
> We all know.


I get what Flea's saying about longevity. The thing with Veerapol that often gets forgotten in a boxing sense is how battle worn his body was by time he decided to bin the anklets and don a pair of boots.

He was a major player in the largest, most competitive & spartan fight scene around, the Thai MT machine in its golden age of the the late 80s & 90s. He fought at the highest level for over a decade & has ATG fight status due to his many battles with the era's elite boyz. Due to the depth and quality of the talent there are very few mismatches meaning its common place to get all out wars and guys fighting each other maybe 7or 8 times. Those wars take a toll on u, how many Samson vs Veerapol's can a body take each year? The golden age guys fought a lot more frequently than they did in previous eras many boasting pro records of over 200 fights. So guys who converted earlier than the late 80s like Seansak etc although seasoned MT veterans may have only had around 70 bouts which when talking about accumulated damage compared to a couple hundred is massive.

What I'm trying to say is guys form earlier years although already battle hardened by the time they switched were much "fresher" than the Golden age lads that probably gave them the edge in longevity compared to say later guys like Veerapol, Samson & Pong etc.

Another thing to consider interns of longevity is the lack of decent medical treatment most of these guys get as Muay Thai fighters. Most of the time it's at best 3rd class and occasionally non existent. These guys are akin to animals in a stable, there is very little emotion or compassion involved & no expense "wasted" unless absolutely necessary, every thing is skimpt on. They only really become a unique commodity once they convert to Sakon and start to win on the international scene where the money is big in comparison to what that make in an MT ring. So just imagine after 10 years of top tier MT how many injuries was he carrying and thats before he converted to Sakon...makes the longevity of guys like Veerapol look pretty impressive.


----------



## Lester1583

boranbkk said:


> Another thing to consider interns of longevity is the lack of decent medical treatment most of these guys get as Muay Thai fighters. Most of the time it's at best 3rd class and occasionally non existent. These guys are akin to animals in a stable, there is very little emotion or compassion involved & no expense "wasted" unless absolutely necessary, every thing is skimpt on. They only really become a unique commodity once they convert to Sakon and start to win on the international scene where the money is big in comparison to what that make in an MT ring. So just imagine after 10 years of top tier MT how many injuries was he carrying and thats before he converted to Sakon...makes the longevity of guys like Veerapol look pretty impressive.


Interesting info, B.

Do you happen to know why did Poot Lorlek retire from boxing?

Was it really cuz of Duran?


----------



## Pedderrs

I've still not watched a fight of Pone's I think he won. I thought both Harada and Ebihara beat him twice a piece.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Interesting info, B.
> 
> Do you happen to know why did Poot Lorlek retire from boxing?
> 
> Was it really cuz of Duran?


It is Boran who met Poot and found that out. Half in jest I think though.


----------



## Pedderrs

Taking on Konadu in only your 5th Professional fight.










Even with his MT credentials, I think it was a bit early to be taking on a monster like that.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Taking on Konadu in only your 5th Professional fight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even with his MT credentials, I think it was a bit early to be taking on a monster like that.


Well, he beat World class Daorung, who split bouts with Konadu. And had Konadu down in the first.

I actually think that was the best thing that could've happened to Veeraphol, as he tweaked his style to become the measured boxer-puncher he did. After the Konadu fight he was all class.

Not the greatest matchmaking but in Thailand it's unlikely there's much thought of maneuvering round an opponent.

What a shoot out though, eh? :yep

Really glad you're enjoying Veeraphol :good


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Well, he beat World class Daorung, who split bouts with Konadu. And had Konadu down in the first.
> 
> I actually think that was the best thing that could've happened to Veeraphol, as he tweaked his style to become the measured boxer-puncher he did. After the Konadu fight he was all class.
> 
> Not the greatest matchmaking but in Thailand it's unlikely there's much thought of maneuvering round an opponent.
> 
> What a shoot out though, eh? :yep
> 
> Really glad you're enjoying Veeraphol :good


They definitely slowed him down after that fight though. He didn't really fight anyone of note until Tatsuyoshi three years later, who, by your own admission, was way past his best by that point.

And I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Chuwatana, or the circumstances surrounding the fights themselves, but he won on a TD in Thailand in his first fight with Konadu and was then stopped in 7 rounds in the return match on neutral soil. So, I'm not really sure what to make of those results. Perhaps you can shed some light?

Veeraphol is excellent. He does remind me of Sumbu in the way he jabs and shoots the right hand.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> They definitely slowed him down after that fight though. He didn't really fight anyone of note until Tatsuyoshi three years later, who, by your own admission, was way past his best by that point.
> 
> And I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Chuwatana, or the circumstances surrounding the fights themselves, but he won on a TD in Thailand in his first fight with Konadu and was then stopped in 7 rounds in the return match on neutral soil. So, I'm not really sure what to make of those results. Perhaps you can shed some light?
> 
> Veeraphol is excellent. He does remind me of Sumbu in the way he jabs and shoots the right hand.


Daorung is a very good technical southpaw. Definitely World class. He went tit for tat with Konadu in the first fight, but got overwhelmed in the rematch. EDIT: Think one of them is on youtube. I'll get em up if not :good

You'll see how good he was when you watch Veeraphol against hum. @Sweet Pea is a fan of this fight as well.

Edit: They slowed Veeraphol down but he fought a lot. Varied journeyman mainly. A very young Choi (of domestic fame) gave him a tough fight, I uploaded it to youtube. Shame a bit of it is missing because Choi was very game and badly rocked Veeraphol at one point IIRC.

I think with such a hard career they just wanted to keep him ticking over and to gain a bit more experience.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Daorung is a very good technical southpaw. Definitely World class. He went tit for tat with Konadu in the first fight, but got overwhelmed in the rematch.
> 
> You'll see how good he was when you watch Veeraphol against hum. @Sweet Pea is a fan of this fight as well.


I'm going to watch Veeraphol-Chutawana now. It's on YT.

I'll be back in about 50 minutes.

EDIT: If you could upload Harada-Ebihara, that'd be good. :yep


----------



## Flea Man

Yeah it's on my channel with a watermark but someone elses without :good

Score it, because it's bloody close.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Yeah it's on my channel with a watermark but someone elses without :good
> 
> Score it, because it's bloody close.


Is there any reason you don't just use Windows Movie Maker or MPEG Streamclip and upload onto YT that way, Flea? That way there will be no watermark.


----------



## Lester1583

Am I the only one who thinks Galindez didn't deserve to win the second Yaqui fight?

And what the hell happened to Yaqui between those two fights?

Filipino PEDs?!

Galindez was definitely the stronger guy in the first fight but Y. Lopez looked like the hulk-version of himself the second time they met.


Galindez got totally outjabbed in the first fight.
Conteh schooled Yaqui with one hand:yep


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Is there any reason you don't just use Windows Movie Maker or MPEG Streamclip and upload onto YT that way, Flea? That way there will be no watermark.


Can you transfer DVDs using windows movie maker?

I mainly do it so if people want it without they can still go to the collectors referenced in the description. I do this so as not to piss off my sources for uploading some of their rarest footage so they'll still sell stuff to me.

But for stuff that's not an issue with I'd like to know so I could potentially upload without. I use a free demo. And I'm not technically savvy in the slightest.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Can you transfer DVDs using windows movie maker?
> 
> I mainly do it so if people want it without they can still go to the collectors referenced in the description. I do this so as not to piss off my sources for uploading some of their rarest footage so they'll still sell stuff to me.
> 
> But for stuff that's not an issue with I'd like to know so I could potentially upload without. I use a free demo. And I'm not technically savvy in the slightest.


As far as I'm concerned, if I'm paying money for a fight then I have the right to do whatever the hell I want with it.

Anyhow, you can use MPEG Streamclip to convert the VOB to an .Avi (or whatever) and then you can either simply upload that onto Youtube or run it through Windows Movie Maker to try and get the file size even more. You should be using a codec like H.264 if you want to upload the video onto the web. You just select that on the drop down menu within MPEG Streamclip.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if I'm paying money for a fight then I have the right to do whatever the hell I want with it.
> 
> Anyhow, you can use MPEG Streamclip to convert the VOB to an .Avi (or whatever) and then you can either simply upload that onto Youtube or run it through Windows Movie Maker to try and get the file size even more. You should be using a codec like H.264 if you want to upload the video onto the web. You just select that on the drop down menu within MPEG Streamclip.


I get treated well by my traders, so try and put business back their way.

Sound, I'll try and get me head round that.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> I get treated well by my traders, so try and put business back their way.
> 
> Sound, I'll try and get me head round that.


What kind of file size could you typically expect if you're uploading a 12 round fight, Flea?


----------



## Flea Man

No idea mate.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> No idea mate.


I just scored Sahaprom-Chuwatana.

I actually had Chuwatana ahead after 5 rounds, I just think from then on Sahaprom began to control things with his jab. He would shoot the jab and then circle to his left, constantly keeping Chuwatana off balance and out of position. You could tell by round 10 that Chuwatana wasn't comfortable with how the fight was going because he tried to goad Sahaprom into coming forward more. He would plod forward, get hit by the jab, and then try and fire back only to find that Sahaprom wasn't in front of him any longer. So yeah, I agree with you that it was pretty difficult to separate them for the first 5-6 rounds, but from then on it was really Sahaprom's fight.

8-2-2 Sahaprom


----------



## boranbkk

Lester1583 said:


> Interesting info, B.
> 
> Do you happen to know why did Poot Lorlek retire from boxing?
> 
> Was it really cuz of Duran?


Yep, cos of Duran and he was deadly serious. He was equally serious when I asked him who he thought the MT GOAT was and he named himself the GOAT followed by Samart and then Seanchai&#8230;..

You have to understand the backdrop of the Thai fight scene a little. Fighters in Thailand to this day hold none of the cards. They have minimal input into their career and little control of their future even up to the later parts of their career. They are totally dependant on their handlers and therefore controlled in a mild form of modern day "slavery". You'd be surprised how little some of the big names know about life outside there closeted gyms where they live most of their life until the retire and just how naive and childlike many of them can come across well into their mid to late 20s. The wilderness of real life can be over whelming as Poot found out in his decade in the wilderness at the peak of his prime.

Poot did want to move into boxing he felt he'd be successful, but at that point he was only offered the Duran fight. Poot tells the story a little like he had a choice but it's simply a case of his handlers wanted to cash in with a Duran fight and Poot said no. No one says no to their handlers in the Thai fight world&#8230;&#8230;The Muay Thai scene is very very conservative and controlled by a small group of very powerful people usually backed by the Army or the mob (one & the same to most people). If they decide to shut you out that's it you're done. As fighters are solely dependant on their handlers in the way a newborn is dependant on it's mother if your handler says that's it, that's it, finish. He spent the next 10 years out of the sport except for a few regional nothing fights at fairgrounds in the provinces fighting literally for peanuts, before getting invited back into the fold. Poot was and still is famed for his technique, masterful footwork and defensive wizardry combined with a tricky slightly unorthodox but effective offence. He never used to get hit much or at least as little is possible in a Muay Thai ring. Hence the thought of a world champion, a specialist with his stone fists pounding into him did genuinely "scare" or more like worry him so he said no. The myth of Duran's hands may have been exaggerated a bit in a world without internet or satellite TV and the Thais are a superstitious bunch. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced he's telling the truth and it makes sense to me. Plenty of guys have a been shut out and I bet it was worse back then. Somrak Khamsing's MT career probably suffered a similar fate. His famed big gob probably said something it really shouldn't of done&#8230;..

One thing that may interest you guys, he really didn't rate Seansak. They fought 4 times with Poot winning 3, but the Seansak win is known to be a controversial one which many felt Poot won. I felt no love was lost there when talking. In the late 80s he did a demo with Samart in Pattaya which many felt Poot got the better of. It makes you wonder what may have been if he had continued into boxing&#8230;..

The "Angel Boxer" these days in his new gym&#8230;&#8230;..










Here is he with his son & grandson talking me through some of his fights blow by blow in slow mo on the laptop&#8230;.(fuckin amazing!)


----------



## Lester1583

boranbkk said:


> Yep, cos of Duran and he was deadly serious.


Very interesting.

Thanks, Boran.


----------



## Flea Man

boranbkk said:


> Yep, cos of Duran and he was deadly serious. He was equally serious when I asked him who he thought the MT GOAT was and he named himself the GOAT followed by Samart and then Seanchai&#8230;..
> 
> You have to understand the backdrop of the Thai fight scene a little. Fighters in Thailand to this day hold none of the cards. They have minimal input into their career and little control of their future even up to the later parts of their career. They are totally dependant on their handlers and therefore controlled in a mild form of modern day "slavery". You'd be surprised how little some of the big names know about life outside there closeted gyms where they live most of their life until the retire and just how naive and childlike many of them can come across well into their mid to late 20s. The wilderness of real life can be over whelming as Poot found out in his decade in the wilderness at the peak of his prime.
> 
> Poot did want to move into boxing he felt he'd be successful, but at that point he was only offered the Duran fight. Poot tells the story a little like he had a choice but it's simply a case of his handlers wanted to cash in with a Duran fight and Poot said no. No one says no to their handlers in the Thai fight world&#8230;&#8230;The Muay Thai scene is very very conservative and controlled by a small group of very powerful people usually backed by the Army or the mob (one & the same to most people). If they decide to shut you out that's it you're done. As fighters are solely dependant on their handlers in the way a newborn is dependant on it's mother if your handler says that's it, that's it, finish. He spent the next 10 years out of the sport except for a few regional nothing fights at fairgrounds in the provinces fighting literally for peanuts, before getting invited back into the fold. Poot was and still is famed for his technique, masterful footwork and defensive wizardry combined with a tricky slightly unorthodox but effective offence. He never used to get hit much or at least as little is possible in a Muay Thai ring. Hence the thought of a world champion, a specialist with his stone fists pounding into him did genuinely "scare" or more like worry him so he said no. The myth of Duran's hands may have been exaggerated a bit in a world without internet or satellite TV and the Thais are a superstitious bunch. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced he's telling the truth and it makes sense to me. Plenty of guys have a been shut out and I bet it was worse back then. Somrak Khamsing's MT career probably suffered a similar fate. His famed big gob probably said something it really shouldn't of done&#8230;..
> 
> One thing that may interest you guys, he really didn't rate Seansak. They fought 4 times with Poot winning 3, but the Seansak win is known to be a controversial one which many felt Poot won. I felt no love was lost there when talking. In the late 80s he did a demo with Samart in Pattaya which many felt Poot got the better of. It makes you wonder what may have been if he had continued into boxing&#8230;..
> 
> The "Angel Boxer" these days in his new gym&#8230;&#8230;..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is he with his son & grandson talking me through some of his fights blow by blow in slow mo on the laptop&#8230;.(fuckin amazing!)


Lovely, lovely stuff :good

People can see how interesting my book will be and why you're the man to help me :deal


----------



## Pedderrs

I uploaded this one. It's pretty good.


----------



## Sweet Pea

Pedderrs said:


> I just scored Sahaprom-Chuwatana.
> 
> I actually had Chuwatana ahead after 5 rounds, I just think from then on Sahaprom began to control things with his jab. He would shoot the jab and then circle to his left, constantly keeping Chuwatana off balance and out of position. You could tell by round 10 that Chuwatana wasn't comfortable with how the fight was going because he tried to goad Sahaprom into coming forward more. He would plod forward, get hit by the jab, and then try and fire back only to find that Sahaprom wasn't in front of him any longer. So yeah, I agree with you that it was pretty difficult to separate them for the first 5-6 rounds, but from then on it was really Sahaprom's fight.
> 
> 8-2-2 Sahaprom


Been a while since I watched it, but that seems pretty damn wide. I remember them being pretty evenly matched. Might just have to do with the way I watch fights, though. I don't strictly score.


----------



## Pedderrs

Katsuya Onizuka-Thanomsak Sithbaobay II.

An incredible fight, but no way did Onizuka win that.


----------



## Pedderrs

Even Smoger would have stopped this one in the 4th.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> And Danny Romero would have got lit up like a Christmas tree if he fought Penalosa. He had absolutely nothing for Gerry.


These ain't no vietnamese midgets we're talking about.:twisted

Penalosa couldn't even hurt a glass chinned Tokuyama.:blurp

Penalosa's slow ass would lose another decision just as he always did when he stepped up in class.

Although Danny Romero was capable of sparking Gerry.

Kid Dynamite was vicious, I tell ya, vicious!:ibutt


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Although Danny Romero was capable of sparking Gerry.


:lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Although Danny Romero was capable of sparking Gerry.
> 
> You've got a point there:deal


Danny almost killed an iron-chinned Tapia.

Almost.

With a single punch.

Scary stuff.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Danny almost killed an iron-chinned Tapia.
> 
> Almost.
> 
> With a single punch.
> 
> Scary stuff.


----------



## Vic

Man, I need to make a review of certain fighters ,been years since I watched DAnny Romero, Johnny Tapia, Salvador SAnchez. 
Also, Jose Napoles, Emille Griffith, Carlos Ortiz, all guys that I need to review because I feel like I don´t remmeber many of their fights properly..


----------



## LittleRed

We should make a club ya know.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Man, I need to make a review of certain fighters ,been years since I watched DAnny Romero, Johnny Tapia, Salvador SAnchez.
> Also, Jose Napoles, Emille Griffith, *Carlos Ortiz*, all guys that I need to review because I feel like I don´t remmeber many of their fights properly..


Your days of overrating Chavez will be over when you rewatch Ortiz-Laguna 3 - the masterpiece of left-hook counterpunching.

Chavez wishes he was good enough to beat someone as great as Laguna.

Alas, his best victory will forever remain a past-prime Tony Lopez.


----------



## Lester1583

Is it me or is Welcome Ncita basically a smaller version of Terry Norris?

Damn, that McKinney KO was totally out of the blue.


----------



## Lester1583

> "It's always the same. My friends come to me and say "oooh". They say I won.
> I say nothing. That is the way of the fighting. If I lost the fight, then I lost the fight.
> Cry because I lost?
> I do not do such things"


Luis Manuel Rodriguez.


----------



## Pedderrs

Yeah, another vote for Ortiz. Phenomenal fighter.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Your days of overrating Chavez will be over when you rewatch Ortiz-Laguna 3 - the masterpiece of left-hook counterpunching.
> 
> Chavez wishes he was good enough to beat someone as great as Laguna.
> 
> Alas, his best victory will forever remain a past-prime Tony Lopez.


He is not even the greatest Ortiz.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> He is not even the greatest Ortiz.


Do you really think so, Vic?

Manuel was a quality fighter, no doubt about that, but what are your arguments for such high praise?


----------



## Lester1583

What the hell?!



> As an amateur, Ortiz defeated Bobby Hagar twice. In their first fight, Ortiz decked Hager 17 times. In their second match, Ortiz decked Hager twenty times.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Do you really think so, Vic?
> 
> Manuel was a quality fighter, no doubt about that, but what are your arguments for such high praise?


Not really, I think he should be discussed more though, I think it doesn´t help that is difficult to get info on his opposition ..


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> He is not even the greatest Ortiz.


I disagree. Manuels bantamweight era was an average one.


----------



## Vic

Flea Man said:


> I disagree. Manuels bantamweight era was an average one.


I was not really too serious Flea, even more because I don´t think Manuel looks too great on film, Carlos Ortiz certainly is better in any criteria, but I wish there was more footage of Manuel´s opposition.


----------



## jonnytightlips

Been watching a fuckin shitload of Felix Trinidad fights lately. Brilliant fuckin. Wish he was around today to smash up some cunt like Broner.


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> I was not really too serious Flea, even more because I don´t think Manuel looks too great on film, Carlos Ortiz certainly is better in any criteria, but I wish there was more footage of Manuel´s opposition.


I'd certainly love more footage of David Kui Kong or whatever his name was.


----------



## Pedderrs

jonnytightlips said:


> Been watching a fuckin shitload of Felix Trinidad fights lately. Brilliant fuckin. Wish he was around today to smash up some cunt like Broner.


It's no exaggeration to say that Broner wouldn't last two rounds with a prime Trinidad. I remember going through a period early last year of watching a lot of Trinidad's Welterweight reign. He devastated the opposition. You can talk about his balance issues and porous defense abilities, but as a composite puncher I think he was one of the very best of his era. Phenomenal punching form. It's chilling to watch him demolish the likes of Campas, Blocker, and Joppy.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> It's chilling to watch him demolish the likes of Campas, Blocker, and Joppy.


Yeah, seeing Trinidad on the floor against a fighter of Campas level was pretty chilling.:hey

The real welterweight punching machine, J.L. Lopez easily destroyed Campas without embarrassing himself.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Yeah, seeing Trinidad on the floor against a fighter of Campas level was pretty chilling.:hey
> 
> The real welterweight punching machine, J.L. Lopez easily destroyed Campas without embarrassing himself.


Eat shit troll cunt. :cheers


----------



## jonnytightlips

Pedderrs said:


> It's no exaggeration to say that Broner wouldn't last two rounds with a prime Trinidad. I remember going through a period early last year of watching a lot of Trinidad's Welterweight reign. He devastated the opposition. You can talk about his balance issues and porous defense abilities, but as a composite puncher I think he was one of the very best of his era. Phenomenal punching form. It's chilling to watch him demolish the likes of Campas, Blocker, and Joppy.


Agreed. The man was a monster at 147. Wasn't the most technically gifted fighters in a sense but what he did worked 90% of the time. Incredibly accurate puncher with a good jab and a devastating left hook. One of my favourite fighters of all time. The way he battered Joppy was a thing of beauty.


----------



## Rise_Above

Just watched Tyson's shutout of Mitch Green. Just love his style, the head movement and the short powerful punching.


----------



## Josey Wales

Would haves loved to have seen the 3am Manhatten clothes shop fight .


----------



## Rise_Above

Josey Wales said:


> Would haves loved to have seen the 3am Manhatten clothes shop fight .


You and me both mate!


----------



## zadfrak

The other thing watching that fight does is make you wonder where all that Mitch Green support ever came from. The guy has his followers and they have the guy on a pedestal for his amateur career and getting beat up by Tyson. But I sure didn't see all that many skills on display against Mike. And he sure didn't go into that fight as a live underdog or high pedigree type guy. Nope--just another burial Bill Cayton opponent.


----------



## Rise_Above

zadfrak said:


> The other thing watching that fight does is make you wonder where all that Mitch Green support ever came from. The guy has his followers and they have the guy on a pedestal for his amateur career and getting beat up by Tyson. But I sure didn't see all that many skills on display against Mike. And he sure didn't go into that fight as a live underdog or high pedigree type guy. Nope--just another burial Bill Cayton opponent.


Green was thoroughly outclassed, had no answer for Tyson's head movement and infighting. The only thing he had going for him that night was a good chin and Mike tested it often.


----------



## Bill Butcher

Julio Cesar Chavez vs Dwight Pratchett at 130 lbs...wtf kept Pratchett up to last 12 rounds, Chavez landed every punch in the book on this guy, tremendous show of heart vs 1 of the best of all time.


----------



## The Wanderer

If that's the fight I think it is, (outdoor fight, the sun setting in the later rounds) then I saw it a couple of years ago and somewhere around round 7 or 8 I kept waiting for Pratchett to fall and the guy just wouldn't give up. Kept eating nasty left hooks to the body and head for his trouble too.

Like you, I don't know how he went the distance. It started getting uncomfortable at times seeing the dude being worked over, in the same way a fight like Bowe-Golota II can make you feel terrible for the guy getting beat down.


----------



## Pedderrs

JCC-Ali was a horrible beatdown, too.


----------



## Bill Jincock

embarassingly that was one of Chavez' tougher opponents at 140.A fighter who was ok in the mid 80s.


----------



## The Wanderer

Even having grown up as a big Chavez fan, I gotta say that as soon as the Taylor fight was over it seems like Don King and co. were thinking of nothing but Chavez making it to 100-0. He fought quite a stiffs afterward, mixed in with quite a few fighters who were good, no pushovers, but not exactly a threat or challenge to him.


----------



## Bill Jincock

in fairness 140 wasn't exactly stacked at the time, but yeah you've basically got a three and a half year gap where he's coasting on his hard earned reputation in a "third-tier contender\washed up name of the month" tour.Not a single interesting fight where you didn't know he was a massive favourite and would be a complete shock if he lost between Taylor and Pea.

Arguably even worse-certainly no better- than what Jones did at 175, yet he largely managed to avoid criticism from the boxing media of the time.

a fight with Whitaker really should have taken place no latter than 91, ideally not too long after taylor and Nelson were defeated.


----------



## kf3

srl v kalule, more or less a first viewing tbh, I watched it at about 10 years ago and was focussed on ray

have a lot of work on so i'm limiting myself to one fight a day, @Flea Man good call on this one

rd 1: all srl except a sweet straight left near the end
rd 2: kalule slows leonards pace and its a pretty even round, nothing like rd1 at all
rd 3. srl moving left or back, his offence stunted by kalule counter shots, mostly rights, sometimes followed with a good combination. 29-29
rd 4: more aggression form ray, hooks(particularly to the head) still getting counterd, then lands a left hook and shakes kalule @ 2min mark. toe2toe insues, kalule not holding and takes a couple more, recoverd by end of it tho. 39 - 38 
rd 5: kalule,. comes out jabbing lazily and gets hit over it a couple times, after 20 seconds he stops that. then he wins the middle 2 mins where both men show nice skills but the 3 best shots are kalule's, then srl turns it up and lan.ds the better looking shots of the round. close round, an edge to leonard, could see it being scored even too. 49 - 47
rd 6: rays best round since the 1st, not dominating by any means but kalule missing more than before 59 - 56
rd 7: i love sports events that dont follow a pattern(when i'm not betting on them ) kalule comes out with more aggresion and straight shots, ray comes back in the last minute and its fought more evenly ........68-66 
rd 8: mostly quiet, bit of action near the end 78 - 76
rd:9 ray comes out swinging, wins the first min big, kalule fights back through the middle, if ray had a weaker chin he could have suffered a kd. then 3 srl left hooks, a combination finishing in a straight right, not a terrible stoppage, ive seen guys hurt worse allowed to continue. excellent fight


----------



## Jdempsey85

Leonard vs Benitez

Had leonard way ahead after 10 lost interest,Boring fight


----------



## Pedderrs

Jdempsey85 said:


> Leonard vs Benitez
> 
> Had leonard way ahead after 10 lost interest,Boring fight


:lol: You watched 10 rounds and then switched it off? A beautiful clinic on the part of SRL.


----------



## Drew101

Lester1583 said:


> Yeah, seeing Trinidad on the floor against a fighter of Campas level was pretty chilling.:hey
> 
> The real welterweight punching machine, J.L. Lopez easily destroyed Campas without embarrassing himself.


Been on a bit of a J.L. Lopez kick myself. Watched the Loughran decimation, and his fight with Campa. Pretty impressive stuff from Jose Luis, who probably _was_\ the hardest puncher in the division at the time. Not a bad boxer, either...but his tendency to throw maybe 30 punches a round at most and a complete inability to keep his head on straight prevented him from becoming the star that he could have been.


----------



## Lester1583

Drew101 said:


> but his tendency to throw maybe 30 punches a round at most and a complete inability to keep his head on straight prevented him from becoming the star that he could have been.


Yup, JL Lopez was basically a stoned two-handed version of post-Ike Tua.

If he wasn't so lethargic/permanently high he probably could've beaten Quartey.

Him vs someone like Colin Jones or Cuevas would have been good fights.


----------



## Sweet Pea

Jones was better than Tua, in my opinion. Not as heavy handed, but better technically. He had excellent punching technique.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Pedderrs said:


> :lol: You watched 10 rounds and then switched it off? A beautiful clinic on the part of SRL.


1st time i done that just couldnt take it anymore.


----------



## tommygun711

Kalambay vs McCallum II great chess match maybe my two favorite chess matches at 160 ever


----------



## Jdempsey85

Donald curry vs Marlon starling

1st time seeing these fights,1st time seeing starling in action,big fan of starling already love his style,gonna dig out more marlon fights asap.Really enjoyed both fights i had it even goin into the 10th in 1st fight,i hated giving curry the 10+11th with that running style.Difficult fight to score with starling blocking nearly everything.116-113 Curry

The 2nd time round i thought maybe starling was carrying a injury with curry taking a big lead on my card,but starling wow brilliant stuff had him winning rounds up until the 15th when curry showed who was the boss.144-142 Curry


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> Kalambay vs McCallum II great chess match maybe my two favorite chess matches at 160 ever


The 2nd is probably my favourite two way technical battle. A joy to watch every time I put it on.


----------



## Lester1583

Nino LaRocca - Bobby Joe Young is like an Elvis contest.

Bad Ali-clone outboxing third-rate Curry-wannabe.


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> The 2nd is probably my favourite two way technical battle. A joy to watch every time I put it on.


True. It makes you wonder why McCallum was so ineffective in the 1st match. When he turned up the pressure and gave Kalambay little room he was infinitely better.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

2nd half of Barrera vs Juarez

What a battle it became as Juarez was in his typical getting out boxed mode when he suddenly came alive and started landing on Barrera, all seemed to start after it appeared Barrera suffered a broken nose.

Juarez began to land hard short punches and dragged Barrera into an all out war. Rounds 9, 10, and 11 all had savage exchanges. Barrera worn out fought the 12th round like he needed it but both men looked worn down and the last round was an ok finish

Barrera had piled up an early lead

it was the one fight where we saw what juarez could do if he got busy with his hands


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Last 3 rounds of Dawson vs Johnson I

What a barrage Johnson landed in the 10th, Im surprised Dawson stayed on his feet

But then in 11 and 12 while appearing to be gassed and out on his feet he got in some hard right hooks and crosses and created some phenomenal 2 way traffic

Dawson is accused of having no heart and that he cant fight..maybe they are right but in these rounds Dawson does what a lot say he cant and he was in the trenches and went to war and survived

good finish


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Paul Williams vs Sergio Martinez I

Round 1: Williams first knockdown and controls the round. Martinez at the way end after going down and losing the round scores a knockdown and a harder one. Gut says Martinez 10-9 though Williams controlled that round for sure

Round 2 and 3: All Martinez 10-9 a piece making it 30-27 Martinez

Round 4: Martinez still aggressive but Williams finds home on a few hard lefts, one of which staggers Martinez and forces him to hold on at the end of the round. 10-9 Williams

Round 5: Williams comes out aggressive, Martinez attempts a rally and Williams exchanges with him and the exchange appears even, Williams continues to control the round. 10-9 Williams 48-47

Round 6: Fight settled down a lot into a jabbing match but then Williams began to land his right hook one of which particularly hard. The chopping lefts were continuing but most fell short but one or two connected real well. Martinez was throwing and moving a lot less. 10-9 Williams. knotted at 57

Round 7: Another quiet round definitely for Williams who had the snappier and eye catchier stuff. Williams connected best on a two punch combo and later on a counter right hook that stopped Martinez dead in his tracks. Williams also was solid defensively in the round getting hit a lot less. 10-9 Williams pulling ahead for the first time at 67-66

Round 8: This round had to be a point of disagreement for the judges as Williams jabbed well and found range. Martinez began using a left hand to the body and a brought back the right hook to the head. Williams got caught by a left upstairs but then came back with two of his long chopping lefts of his own. The consistent work was Williams but the eye catching stuff was Martinez. 10-9 Martinez. knotted at 76 apiece

Round 9: Another hard round to score. Williams is still busy but a lot has seemed to come off his punches though theres usually one hard punch for every for or five. Martinez is getting a second wind moving a lot more and throwing more than he had when Williams was climbing back in the fight. I feel like the siginificant blows are similar though Williams probably landed more. Tough to pick a winner. Gonna go even and call it a swing round. 86 a piece Harold gave it to Williams, the first round I actually saw differently 

Round 10: Martinez's best round since the third where he resembled the confident, elusive, and busy fighter he was when re was rocking Williams. In this round he used the left that he used in the rematch to KO Williams. It was a punch he showed early and got away from. 10-9 Martinez 96-95 Martinez

Round 11: Big Martinez round, the round was tightly contested til the moment Martinez fell and took ages to get up. Looked exausted but threw hard anyway. He knocked Williams around with some of his shots. 10-9 Martinez 106 to 104 Martinez Harold was in disagreement. 

Round 12: With 1:55 to go Martinez landed the KO punch from the second fight and Williams took it well but it connected with great effect. Williams really dug in with the hooks and uppercuts with both hands. Once again they landed similar numbers of hard blows but Williams just seemed to get in more in total. Williams in a marathon of a round takes it 10-9. 115-114 Martinez

If the ninth was scored for Williams its a draw on my card if it goes to Martinez its just a wider win


Steward called the left hand of Williams to come back in the fight and Sergio would tire. Martinez did his little habit of taking mid round breaks as he clearly gave away rounds and let Williams pull up ahead only to have to rally late. I thought Martinez edged it but barely. Not a real robbery because I think you got a case of just a lot of close rounds.

You see shades of the left hand that KO's Williams but he got real right hook happy and got away from the punch.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Andre Berto vs Luis Collazo, felt like watching this due to Collazo's big career reviving knockout of Victor Ortiz. This was a fight I watched when it happened and I was in high school and wasnt really a fan of Berto thought he was a softly matched fraud with a chin waiting to get cracked

I thought Collazo won but never actually scored it, never to this day had I actually truly scored it. I knew I was biased and that Collazo probably in reality lost a close one. But here we go

Round 1: Patient little start but Berto opens up with 2 flush rights down the center but is knocked off balance badly into the ropes by a left hand. He then recovers and dominantes the round landing more rights through the guard and Collazo just does not see them coming. 10-9 Berto. Lederman gave to Collazo I'm not sure how

- thoughts at this moment. Berto compared to his last few fights at this time was definitely a lot faster and seemed a little more explosive. Now I feel like Berto waits on his shots in a wide stance and waits to use his right as a counter. In this round he clearly led with it and tried to be the attacker. His defense is kind of low handed and reflex based but no shoulder roll or cheap imitation shoulder roll. His jab is fast but throw away and his left hook is all arm with no torque

Round 2: A much closer round. Berto iniating a lot of clinches but Collazo throws in them. Early in the round they struggled to land upstairs each traded their power hand to the body. Collazo split the guard with a powerful left up the middle and backed Berto up. Berto however later in the round landed a hard right that moved Collazo and followed up with some fast punches to the head including a nice left hook though I was critical of his technique on it. 10-9 Berto 20-18 Berto

Round 3: Brutal round fought almost entirely in close quarters. Berto who I mentioned iniated lots of clinchs so far was warned by the ref and proceeded to stay in close but not clinch. He would get himself so square that he gave away his body and Collazo dug in to the body. He also walked Berto straight into a right uppercut that buckled him just a little. Collazo dominated inside but Berto was not without some good work, he did land a powerful left right that probably would have dropped a lot of fighters. 10-9 Collazo 29-28 Berto

Round 4: Competitive round, Berto docked for holding, he was warned last round and grabbed the arm with two hands and wouldnt let go and Collazo was landing with his free hand. Ref docked him. After the point was taken Berto rushed in but ate a left hook. Berto is in a situation where he has to adjust, timed on the outside, mauled on the inside. 10-8 Collazo 38-37 Collazo

Round 5: Ineffective round as both men struggled to land cleanly, most punches parcially blocked or slipped entirely. The round was fought at range where Collazo lost most of his advantaged. Collazo has Berto timed where Berto struggles to land frequently but Berto's speed allows him to land just enough and make Collazo miss just enough to win the round 10-9 Berto 47-47 even

Round 6: Very hard round to score. Berto boxed early like he did in round 5 taking advantage of his skillset and landing probably 1 of every 4 of his shots. Ineffective but active, Collazo was limited in his attempts to get going. He could make Andre miss but not follow up. Then Collazo with his back to the ropes began land those powerful punches and they began to exchange again but Berto though at a disadvantage landed 2 left hooks and 2 right uppercuts. Then landed another right uppercut in the middle of the ring. Collazo tried to rally back late. 10-9 Berto 57-56 Berto Harold disagreed

Round 7: Collazo really gave away the round had his hands down for well over a minute trying to get Berto to fall into a trap Berto was passive but still threw and got some in. Collazo did not throw at all. 10-9 Berto 67-65 Berto Harold goes the other way but I dont know how. I dont like to use compubox box stats but Berto was 21-27 and Collazo was 4 of 20. Now even if they are slightly off as they probably are thats still such a huge disparity

Round 8: I dont know what Collazo is thinking. He just handed Berto another round by not fighting. He was bothered by a body shot early in the round and down the stretch a Berto right snapped his head back. Berto swarmed him at the end of the round throwing at the head. 10-9 Berto 77-74 Berto

-at this juncture my card is the exact opposite of Lederman and I really think he is doing a terrible job scoring this fight

Round 9: Big round for Collazo as Berto was starting to roll and had all the momentum and Collazo in a puzzling way was giving away the fight. Berto maybe tired or over confident took to the inside and tried to fight Collazo in close and let Collazo rally, at first Collazo was just arming away but over the course of the round Collazos punches developed more steam and he started ripping Berto. 10-9 Collazo 86-84 Berto

Round 10: Both men winded after such a brutal pace yet somehow Collazo manages to keep his foot on the gas. He just keeps on punching inside and lands especially well to the body of a tiring Berto. 10-9 Collazo 95-94 Berto 

Round 11: Berto was the aggressor in this round and was busier and on the attack even caught Collazo with a sharp right but Collazo put his hands down and rolled away from the rest of the attack. Competitive round but Berto's 10-9, 105-103 Berto

Round 12 Berto dominated this round against a gassed Collazo, Berto was ripping shots to the head and body took the round with ease. 115-112 Berto the exact opposite of Lederman whose score I found atrocious 

in the end I was in between the official judges, 2 had it 114-113 and one had it 16-111

I agree with the 2 who had it closer but cannot agree with the 116-111 judge

I can potentially see giving the 6th to Collazo and having it 114-113 though


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> True. It makes you wonder why McCallum was so ineffective in the 1st match. When he turned up the pressure and gave Kalambay little room he was infinitely better.


He was always a slow starter until the first Kalambay fight.

Even then the rematch was very close; and this was post-Nunn KO Sumbu.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

2 wks ago FNF. Garcia and Gonzalez a sd for Garcia 

I had it to Gonzalez 95-94 5 a piece the 10-8 being the deal breaker

For the most part it's an easy fight to score

38-38 after 4 then clear rounds 5,9,10 Garcia 8 for Gonzalez

I gave Gonzalez 6 and 7 but those were the hardest to score and definitely decided the fight give Gonzalez both like I did he's up one. Split the rds between them and it's Garcia by one give Garcia both he wins by 2

Without seeing the official cards I'm guessing this is how the final verdict was rendered


----------



## thehook13

Fuark. always forget about this thread.

Past week- I came across a HD version of Jeff Harding vs Dennis Andries I. Couldnn't pass that up.

It was a Hot favourite for '89 Ring FOTY if Duran - Barkley didn't happen. Anyone who hasn't seen that fight needs to do themselves a favour and watch toughness vs brutality.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Shocking stuff the terrible amateur looking eric winbush stopping the great Matt saad franklin in 3 wow


----------



## thehook13

Jeff Fenech - Tyronne Downes

Strong mauling Fenech smothers and batters Downes over 5 rounds. So Fenech doing what he does best. Downes inflicted a bad cut on Fenech early in the fight. Fenech eventually stops a resilient but physically defeated Downes in 5

Highlight was opening of round 5, Fenech bursts out of his corner to land a crushing right to the body, all but stopping the fight right there.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> embarassingly that was one of Chavez' tougher opponents at 140.A fighter who was ok in the mid 80s.





Bill Jincock said:


> in fairness 140 wasn't exactly stacked at the time, but yeah you've basically got a three and a half year gap where he's coasting on his hard earned reputation in a "third-tier contender\washed up name of the month" tour.Not a single interesting fight where you didn't know he was a massive favourite and would be a complete shock if he lost between Taylor and Pea.


Should have fought Black Flash.

Would have been nice to see Chavez getting knocked out cold with a single punch.


----------



## jorodz

Chavez Jr. -Vera 2

I just don't get it. Chavez Jr won yes but it was not that dominating. He was getting tagged a LOT and even stun on a few occasions. His chin, physical strength and size will take him far but he's simply not that good. If he were to move up to 168 i honestly see him getting hospitalized.


----------



## jorodz

Garcia-Burgos

I love this kid. He's got it all and the maturity and the instincts to put it all together. He doesn't rush, but he pounces on opportunities. He's patient, but aggressive. Burgos tried and has real skills but this was basically a wipeout


----------



## Jdempsey85

Love these old hbo broadcasts from the 80s,stories of juan roldan wrestling bears then highlights of him nearly taking frank fletchers head clean off before fighting hagler

War Juan Roldan

Monzon in the ring before the battle,5'7 roldan looks like a welterweight next to monzon!


----------



## Jdempsey85

Anyone seen sandoval ko del rio 
Lol


----------



## Jdempsey85

Quarry vs Zanon

Great come from behind KO.That prick ringside was annoying


----------



## Jdempsey85

Roldan vs Kinchen

What a beating roldan gives kinchen here wow he just couldnt miss him all night.Kinchen was a tough bastard

Shame a roldan vs hagler rematch didnt come off


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Decided to finally watch Quillin vs Rosado

Havent been subscribed to SHO in a long time and fell out of touch with how Quillins career was going, heard so much criticism saying Rosado was winning despite the wide cards and that the stoppage was terrible

I myself was very skeptical and gave the fight a watch

Of the 2 myths: Bad stoppage and Closer fight, Rosado even ahead...After watching it I'd say the stoppage was fine it was a terrible cut no issues with that at all. The cards were atrocious the 90 and the 89 for Quillin makes you wonder what fight they watched...The 87 to Quillin was alright though I had it 86-84 and even then I felt 2 rounds that I had given to Quillin I did so kind of feeling wrong for doing it

Gave Quillin: 1-3, 5 and 6 with a 10-8 in round 2

Rosado had round 4 before sweeping the last 3 and had all the momentum prior to the TKO

Rosado exposed so much in Quillin's fighting ability 

1) Quillin relies on power and some athletic prowess but not great fundamentals
2)Because those 2 dependencies could not carry the day he was not able to keep Rosado back
3) Quillin has a weak inside game, got out fought and resorted to clinching inside
4) Very low output, once again he looks for homerun shots and picks his spots way way way too much rather than set up punches
5)Seems to lack fire

My take


----------



## Theron

Jdempsey85 said:


> Donald curry vs Marlon starling
> 
> 1st time seeing these fights,1st time seeing starling in action,big fan of starling already love his style,gonna dig out more marlon fights asap.Really enjoyed both fights i had it even goin into the 10th in 1st fight,i hated giving curry the 10+11th with that running style.Difficult fight to score with starling blocking nearly everything.116-113 Curry
> 
> The 2nd time round i thought maybe starling was carrying a injury with curry taking a big lead on my card,but starling wow brilliant stuff had him winning rounds up until the 15th when curry showed who was the boss.144-142 Curry


You should watch Starling vs Honeyghan. Starling smacks him around


----------



## Theron

Been watching Jimmy McLarnin's fights today.
Him vs Singer's pretty weird, looks like he knocks him down with a neck shot then thinks he won does his somersault and almost knocks singer down again with a kick :lol:

Kick then left hook pretty sweet combo though :hat


----------



## Jdempsey85

Theron said:


> You should watch Starling vs Honeyghan. Starling smacks him around


Will do


----------



## Jdempsey85

Incredible battle


----------



## Lester1583

In the 4th round of LMR-Giambra El Feo throws a 30-punch combination like it's nothing and then continues fighting without even taking a deep breath.

Sanchez broke the black bottle over Pryor's head in disbelief when he saw it.


----------



## Phileas Flash

I just watched holyfield v dokes and it was amazing. What an exciting battle! I had ni idea what to expect but it was a real treat.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jdempsey85

Lester1583 said:


> Sanchez broke the black bottle over Pryor's head in disbelief when he saw it.


Lol


----------



## Lester1583

Tony Baltazar's left hook was as textbook as they come.

Who else thinks he beat Howard Davis?


----------



## Jdempsey85

Zamora vs Sandoval again


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Tony Baltazar's left hook was as textbook as they come.
> 
> Who else thinks he beat Howard Davis?


I think I only watched Baltazar vs Camacho :think

Tell me a few Baltazar fights I should watch ?


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Tell me a few Baltazar fights I should watch ?


Baltazar vs Robin Blake - good action fight.
Baltazar vs Howard Davis - stalking puncher vs lightning fast outboxer - few power punches vs flashy combinations - somewhat similar to Matthysse vs Devon only a better fight. Both fighters thought they won the fight.
Baltazar vs McGirt - another testament to Baltazar's massive power.


----------



## Montezuma

I just watched Azumah Nelson vs Salvador Sanchez. What an amazing fight that was. Zoom-Zoom gave everything in that fight and I had him up by 3 rounds going into the 15th. You have to give it to Sanchez though what a terrific and unflappable character he was - I don't think his facial expression changed once during that fight. That left-hook/uppercut he kept catching Azumah with (especially in the 7th round) was tremendous. Definitely one of the best fights I have seen in a long long time. I might put it up there amongst my all-time favourites.
Plan on watching Sanchez's first fight with Danny "Little Red" Lopez sometime over the next couple of days.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Starling v honeyghan

What a beating!!Starling was awesome i lost count how many times lloyds mouthpiece went flying.Great stoppage mills lane


----------



## Montezuma

Jdempsey85 said:


> Starling v honeyghan
> 
> What a beating!!Starling was awesome i lost count how many times lloyds mouthpiece went flying.Great stoppage mills lane


Moochie was one of my favourite boxers back in the day. I remember listening to this on radio - it sounded even more brutal when you had to use your imagination. Honeyghan fought a very crude strategy against such a defensive master. One other thing I got from this fight was how Honeyghan's face got contorted - he got caught by a punch around one of his orbital bones which caused it to flare up. He said that it was absolute agony every time he got caught on that spot. Starling's style was all wrong for Honeyghan.


----------



## Jdempsey85

@Montezuma

Why did they call him moochie?


----------



## Montezuma

Jdempsey85 said:


> @Montezuma
> 
> Why did they call him moochie?


Jdempsey check this interview quote out. The interview is well worth reading as well. http://fitefansho.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/ko-digest-interview-marlon-starling-i.html

KOD: You were known as the "Magic Man" in the ring, but also affectionately known as Moochie. How exactly did your nicknames come about?

MS: "Moochie" is a childhood name, I've had that ever since I was born. "Magic Man" came from my group. When I first started out as a pro, we had a group and we called ourselves "The Magic Show." So one day, my trainer said, "if your group is The Magic Show, you're the Magic Man!" And ever since then, I've been the Magic Man. That was before Paulie Malignaggi and Antonio Tarver. There were only two Magic Men then, me and Magic Johnson. You can't beat that company!


----------



## Jdempsey85

@Montezuma cheers


----------



## Lester1583

Even though Roger Mayweather was shell shocked and fought like a bitch he still beat Baltazar.

It was then Uncle Roger realized most people don't know shit about boxing.


----------



## Lester1583

Alexis Arguello:



> Ruben Olivares:
> 
> I sparred with Ruben Olivares when he came to fight Yambito Blanco. And I said that if I want to learn I have to spar with this world champion. I didn't even tell my trainer that I was doing it, but I had to go. And he beat the living crap out of me. He put a black eye on me. That was in 1971. And then I went to fight him in 1974, and I asked him "Ruben, do you remember when you put a black eye on me?" And he said "Hey kid, I don't remember you, but I'm gonna send you home early. I don't want to punish you. That's okay kid, I'll take care of you really early. That way you don't suffer." I said "Are you kidding me? I came here to do something for my country buddy. Don't take it too lightly. I'm here to battle it out. Whatever's going to happen, I respect you. I'm just trying to remind you about what you did when I was a kid. But the best will win tonight, buddy."(laughs) I remember I said that.
> 
> Ernesto Marcel:
> 
> Tough guy. Up until then, I thought that power was everything. And that night I found out that technique, speed, intelligence, is what controls the sport. It's not power. I had 40 kayos and any guy that came into my country, I knocked him out. And when I fought that day I realized that boxing is not only strength and power. It's beauty, it's rhythm, it's coordination, it has movements that are like a ballet dancer's. The movements are to look good and connect the punches one after the other and to leave you in a position where you are in balance. Like you're flowing. And that's the beauty of it. And that night I found that out. After I got a new trainer, while still keeping my old one because I never wanted to get rid of him, I learned some things. That defeat helped me to get the grounds better to understand that that was the day I grew up as a boxer. To find that my strength wasn't enough.
> 
> That night wasn't discouraging. It was when I found out that I needed to do something else. To learn the movements that Marcel taught me that night. And he gave me a lesson. That day I cried. I cried because I failed my people when I tried to become the first world champion. I remember that my trainer told me, crying the same way I was, "Alexis, we lost a battle, but the war is still on". And I could never forget those words. Then I started working harder than ever.
> 
> Alfredo Escalera:
> 
> Oh man. The second fight was the fight of the decade. That was a war. *The man was talking to me during the rounds when we would get into a clinch. He was telling me "You skinny mother f----r, kill me you son of a bitch."* That was the toughest guy I fought. I was so young. After the fight, when we were taking the test for drugs, the guy came to me and said "Hey Alexis, why don't we sign the third one? We're gonna make a lot of money." I said, "Get out of here. Find someone to fight. I don't want to go through another one." He was a tough son of a bitch. And then my doctor performed an operation, because I had an eighteen stitch cut on my right eye, right on the train. My flight was leaving at eight in the morning and the fight ended about 11:30, so we went back to the hotel, packed everything, and got on the train from Rimini to Milan. We took a six hour ride on the train. And I got plastic surgery right there on the train, with no painkillers.


 @Flea Man

@LittleRed


----------



## kf3

jesus, trying to shave on a train is bad enough


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Alexis Arguello:
> 
> @Flea Man
> 
> @LittleRed


I'm not sure if we say it enough but Arguello was awesome. Love watching him work. Thanks for the interview lester.


----------



## Vic

rewatched recently Arguello vs Olivares, Olivares was not bad at the time, he gave a pretty good effort, changed my opinion on the value of that win a little.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> I'm not sure if we say it enough but Arguello was awesome. Love watching him work.


I'm not a fan of his style.

But.

Arguello could have easily cherry-picked someone not named Pryor (Haley was it?).

Instead he fought the best champion and lost like a man.

No catchweights, no alphabet bullshit, no Eleta excuses.



Vic said:


> Olivares gave a pretty good effort, changed my opinion on the value of that win a little.


And made you reevaluate Arguello's limited boxing ability:hey


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> And made you reevaluate Arguello's limited boxing ability:hey


I never said Arguello was limited, but chavez looks better to me :smile


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> I'm not a fan of his style.
> 
> But.
> 
> Arguello could have easily cherry-picked someone not named Pryor (Haley was it?).
> 
> Instead he fought the best champion and lost like a man.
> 
> No catchweights, no alphabet bullshit, no Eleta excuses.
> 
> And made you reevaluate Arguello's limited boxing ability:hey


Not a fan of his style? This is completely unacceptable Lester. Completely UNACCEPTABLE!

And yes big balls to go after Pryor. That's a guy with class.


----------



## Vic

Still, Chavez was better.


----------



## Vic

Gonna watch some Galindez again later. It sucks that Galindez vs Kates I is not on youtube anymore :verysad That fight is awesome!


----------



## LittleRed

Vic said:


> Still, Chavez was better.


What can we say vic? North American boxers over south American boxers. War Canada! @jorodz


----------



## Bill Jincock

Arguello's savage body attack also made Marcel retire:yep


----------



## Vic

To this day, we still don´t know what Panama Lewis had in the black bottle ? What were Pryor´s words on the incident ? (I´m not really aware of what Pryor said about it.....)


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Gonna watch some Galindez again later.


A poor man's Laciar.

Received more close decisions than Griffith.

But at least his resume shits on Foster's overrated ass.



Vic said:


> Still, Chavez was better.


His best performance is a shot one-dimensional Rosario.

His most well-known victory is over Amir Khan's predecessor.

His best opponent made him look like Chisora's gay twin.

Arguello turned Marcel into a veterinarian and made Legra afraid to turn off the lights.



Vic said:


> What were Pryor´s words on the incident ? (I´m not really aware of what Pryor said about it.....)





> Aaron Pryor: Every place I go, people say: "What was in the water?" I don't know! I didn't give myself the water. Panama told me it was peppermint schnapps to help settle my stomach 'cos I'd been burpin'!


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> A poor man's Laciar.
> 
> Received more close decisions than Griffith.
> 
> But at least his resume shits on Foster's overrated ass.
> 
> His best performance is a shot one-dimensional Rosario.
> 
> His most well-known victory is over Amir Khan's predecessor.
> 
> His best opponent made him look like Chisora's gay twin.
> 
> Arguello turned Marcel into a veterinarian and made Legra afraid to turn off the lights.


Rosario was not shot, past prime, maybe....
He wasn´t one-dimensional..... Remember his fight with Davis Jr ? He had a lot of great attributes, people talk about Davis being fast and he was, but Rosario was showing in that fight how was fast he was as well, among other things.


----------



## Vic

About Galindez, Lester, what I like about him is that he is so different than everything, his style for example, a great counter-puncher, love the way he slips on the inside and hits people with his left uppercut, but he could suddenly brawl too like a maniac, he could also be a bit boring sometimes, quite a unique fighter.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> A poor man's Laciar.
> 
> Received more close decisions than Griffith.
> 
> But at least his resume shits on Foster's overrated ass.
> 
> His best performance is a shot one-dimensional Rosario.
> 
> His most well-known victory is over Amir Khan's predecessor.
> 
> His best opponent made him look like Chisora's gay twin.
> 
> Arguello turned Marcel into a veterinarian and made Legra afraid to turn off the lights.


This post is everything. Peppermint schnapps.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> He wasn´t one-dimensional..... Remember his fight with Davis Jr ? He had a lot of great attributes, people talk about Davis being fast and he was, but Rosario was showing in that fight how was fast he was as well, among other things.


Rosario had a Gomez-like career trajectory - good boxer/puncher early in his career, fell in love with his power/one-dimensional banger later in his career.

Have you seen him destroying Elizondo in 1 round? Shades of Bazooka vs Davila performance:yep

That's why despite struggling horribly with the weight Chavez ducked Rosario for years.

He moved up only after Rosario declined badly.:twisted


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> About Galindez, Lester, what I like about him is that he is so different than everything, his style for example, a great counter-puncher, love the way he slips on the inside and hits people with his left uppercut, but he could suddenly brawl too like a maniac, he could also be a bit boring sometimes, quite a unique fighter.


I was especially impressed with him being completely outjabbed and outboxed twice by Yaqui, barely squeaking past a feather-fisted Fourie and almost losing to a lethargic Gregory.
These fights show his versatility very well.

It's a well-known fact that Conteh masturbated so furiously over Canto-Takada he ruined his right arm.

That's the only reason Galindez even became the champion.


----------



## Flea Man

Galindez overrated IMO. Saad deserves much more credit, but try telling that to Red Cobra.


----------



## Jdempsey85

The size on Jim Jefferies:yikes






:ughh


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> I was especially impressed with him being completely outjabbed and outboxed twice by Yaqui, barely squeaking past a feather-fisted Fourie and almost losing to a lethargic Gregory.
> These fights show his versatility very well.
> 
> It's a well-known fact that Conteh masturbated so furiously over Canto-Takada he ruined his right arm.
> 
> That's the only reason Galindez even became the champion.


He was not naturally talented, he did the best he could with what he had, his heart is why he became, and especially remained a champion in the first Kates fight.


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> He was not naturally talented, he did the best he could with what he had, his heart is why he became, and especially remained a champion in the first Kates fight.


Certainly a good fighter to watch when he put it altogether. A 15-20 LHW....possibly lower.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Galindez overrated IMO.


Is he really?

Foster's best win is an ancient middleweight and people rate him as a H2H-beast.

Spinks beat a bunch of washed-up fighters and people rate him as an unbeatable H2H-beast and drool over his resume.

Galindez was a very good champion, good opposition, longivity, tough - nothing more, nothing less - rarely (if ever) do you see people overhyping him.

Conteh had the potential to eclipse him but he didn't distinguish himself from Galindez.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Is he really?
> 
> Foster


Also overrated in terms of legacy/title reign.


----------



## thistle1

Wow! what an absolute master class drubbing McGowan gave Ronnie Jones of Chicago here, only to lose on an unfortunate cut. this is probably the best footage of just how splendid wee Walter was. I had never seen it till now. Boxing at it's finest!


----------



## Vic

Flea Man said:


> Certainly a good fighter to watch when he put it altogether. A 15-20 LHW....possibly lower.


Yes, I don´t disagree. He is in a tier with Qawi, Jose Torres and others.


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> Yes, I don´t disagree. He is in a tier with Qawi, Jose Torres and others.


Very fair.

Top 5-10? Greb, Spinks, Johnson, Foster, Charles, Moore, who else? Not in that order obviously, I'd probably have it 1. Charles 2. Greb 3. Moore for starters.....


----------



## Vic

Flea Man said:


> Very fair.
> 
> Top 5-10? Greb, Spinks, Johnson, Foster, Charles, Moore, who else? Not in that order obviously, I'd probably have it 1. Charles 2. Greb 3. Moore for starters.....


Yeah, probably. I, personally, rate Roy in the top 10 because of his H2H ability. Loughran and Tommy Gibbons should be up there with the top 5 guys too, perhaps ?
I don´t know how to rate some guys like Maxie Rosembloom though....


----------



## Vic

Would you say that is controversial to rate Harold Johnson above Foster though ? I personally never thought about that, and I didn´t see anyone saying that, but is food for thought. Because, again, I think Foster H2H quality is very high. I could say the same about Johnson though, hmm...:think


----------



## tommygun711

Jorge Castro vs John David Jackson I

great fight, Castro was at such a technical advantage, was getting completely pummeled. this fight is a perfect example of guts overpowering skill.


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> Very fair.
> 
> Top 5-10? Greb, Spinks, Johnson, Foster, Charles, Moore, who else? Not in that order obviously, I'd probably have it 1. Charles 2. Greb 3. Moore for starters.....


Good to see you back brother Flea. Good list too.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Miguel Cotto vs Shane Mosley 

Round 1- All Cotto,in the middle of the ring boxing an impressive performance in the opener lands the jab, the cross, the left hook to the head and body and a right to the body. Mosley didnt land much 10-9 Cotto

Round 2: Cotto boxed very well the majority of the round catching a lot with his gloves and getting his jab going. The round heated up big time in the last 20 when Mosley landed an overhand right and went on the attack. Cotto near the ropes fired back with a straight left from the southpaw stands and backed Mosley up and went back to the body before Shane landed another right. Hard round to score. Cotto 10-9 * that one for closeness 

Round 3- Lots of loading up in this round, both guys commit on some hard hooks. Mosley landed a really hard right hand, Cotto came back on late and Mosley tried to respond. Even harder round to score. Mosley 10-9 *

Round 4- Clear Cotto Round. Not to say Mosley didnt land anything of note he did, the overhand rights make their presence known, Mosley is success in single shots while Cotto has been doing his work in 2's and 3's and really moves Shane and surprisingly with that right cross of his. 10-9 Cotto

Side note the ref Benji Esteves is really doing an incredible job, lets them fight out of the clinches which they do for the most part, many times Cotto pushes out of the clinch and finds home with his left hook as he gets just enough space

Round 5- Very very hard round to score, both men got in some of their best in this round. I think Cotto narrowly edged it 10-9 Cotto. 

Round 6- Thought this was an easy round to score for Cotto, Mosley appeared to take a little bit of a breather, got on his toes and stopped throwing as much. The Cotto jab was effective and he again got in another right cross 10-9 Cotto

Side note- I'm feeling kind of bad right now, I know this is a close fight by most accounts I have even seen people say Shane won...right now I'm sitting on a 5-1 score for Cotto at the midway point. I am not a massive Cotto fan and probably prefer Shane but to be honest it seems like Cotto does more damage with his blows they sound better they move Shane more than Shane moves Cotto. Cotto has been throwing in combination and Shane hasnt. Mosley appears to have his shots partially blocked while Cotto appears to land more cleanly.

I put 2 *'s for the 2nd and 3rd which I will call swing rounds I guess I could potentially see Mosley winning 2 and 3 making it 4-2 which makes it a little closer but points wise Cotto only has to win 3 of the next 6 to claim a victory

Round 7- Mosley moved a lot and stayed on his toes from the outside and was able to limit Cotto's attack, he himself didnt land too much either but did connect on a few really nice overhand rights and did enough to take a round from Cotto who was having some real momentum in the fight 10-9 Mosley

Round 8- Mosely moved and boxed like the previous round only Cotto was getting in this time. Cotto won a quiet round and edges closer to clinching it on points. 10-9 Cotto

Round 9- Cotto goes into full backpeddle mode not sure if he was hurt on a specific shot or if he hurt something. Either way Mosley came on and never let up. Cotto out of desperation did land a lunging left hook at the end. Big Mosley round 10-9.

Round 10- Outside of a good left from the southpaw stance Cotto was on the defensive again and Mosley once again maintained control but might have let it slip a little as Cotto doesnt seem as hurt or bothered as before. 10-9 Mosley

Round 11- Hard round to score Mosley came forward and put Cotto on the ropes but Cotto was landing clean hard shots on the back foot. Cotto landed a big left hook at the end of the round not sure how to go on this one. 10-9 Cotto

Round 12- 10-9 Mosley in a track and field event

Final score was 7-5 for Cotto, Lederman had the same final but got there a little differently 

The real judges scored it the same minus a judge at 116-113 I guess he had something even

Overall I think this was one of those close but clear kind of fights where Cotto obviously won but won really tightly.

I starred 2 rounds for closeness but 1 to Mosley 1 to Cotto meaning they wash out still 7-5. I admit 11 was close, maybe Mosley gets it but then again Lederman had the 12th for Cotto where I did not. So again they might swing and negate each other

All in all Mosley lost for a few reasons, 1) he came on way too late 2) very little punch variety mostly just an overhand right and a right to the body he had a weak jab and ignored the left hook though it had success 3) He had a hard time getting going in combination and struggled mightily to land flush

Cotto won for various reasons maybe some are scoring bias from me but 1) his shots appeared to be more effective, now he never had Mosley hurt and Mosley had him hurt pretty good or so it seemed but he seemed to move Mosley more when he hit him 2) Mosley was mostly single shots while Cotto was in combinations 3) Cotto varied his punch selection a lot more 4) Cotto won on the inside and like I said the ref let them fight out of clinches and more often then not he got a left hook in at separation 5) I said Mosley struggled to land but that had a lot to do with Cotto being sharp on defense and picking off lots of punches, his hands remained high the whole fight and he was well protected

Hats off to Cotto showing poise and levels to his game, hats off to Mosley down the stretch and hats off to Esteves for a great job reffing


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> Would you say that is controversial to rate Harold Johnson above Foster though ? I personally never thought about that, and I didn´t see anyone saying that, but is food for thought. Because, again, I think Foster H2H quality is very high. I could say the same about Johnson though, hmm...:think


Not controversial to me, better comp', but Foster has more title defences. 'What do you like' kinda' thing.


----------



## Vic

Yeah, your criteria decides....

Gonna watch some Leo Gamez later :good


----------



## Jdempsey85

Minter vs Hamsho

Quite a brutal fight this both men certainly earned their money.Terrific combination punches at times by minter but hamsho was a tough sum'bitch he just kept coming with those big swings.I had it a draw but could have gone either way but didnt agree with them las vegas judges 97-93 hamsho,get the fuck outta here.

A lot of this fight was shown through the cameramans lens at the ring post and he did a excellent job at capturing the brutality.Great Fight


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Gonna watch some Leo Gamez later :good


How did you score Mr. Yuh - Gamez 1?

Yuh struggled badly with Gamez's jab and him fighting off the back foot, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Lester1583

Eddie Perkins on Napoles:



> Q: Your honest opinion, how did the fight unfold?
> 
> EP: Napoles was a good puncher, but I didn't give him the opportunity to load up. He was touching me with small stuff, but I didn't give him a chance to get set. Now, he wasn't chasing me, 'cause I wasn't running. I always went at my opponent. I was punching hard that night, but he took a good punch too. It was his hometown (Juarez), he got the decision and I wanted to fight him again, but he didn't want it.
> 
> Q: With you and Napoles in the same division again, and he was champ for a long time, he could have given you a title shot. In fact, wasn't there a Chicago offer to Napoles for a Napoles-Perkins showdown for the title?
> 
> EP: That's right, but the Napoles people wouldn't take the fight. I can't remember when it was, but they were trying for a late summer date and they turned us down.
> 
> The proposed contract Eddie spoke of was a legitimate offer of $70,000 tax-free to Jose Napoles from a Chicago concern for a Napoles-Perkins title fight in Chicago for the fall of 1972. That summer, Napoles defended his title against Adolph Pruitt, a man he had previously knocked out and a man whom Eddie had already defeated twice. Unfortunately, the fall date came and went unceremoniously. Perhaps too little for too big a risk.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> How did you score Mr. Yuh - Gamez 1?
> 
> Yuh struggled badly with Gamez's jab and him fighting off the back foot, if I remember correctly.


I watched his fight with Chor Siriwat. Fucking great war, did you see that, lester? Very good fight.
I didn´t watch Yuh I, I actually don´t have that, and I don´t see it on YT either.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> I watched his fight with Chor Siriwat. Fucking great war, did you see that, lester? Very good fight.


Yes, I've seen this horrible fight.



Lester1583 said:


> Sor Siriwat has brought disgrace upon the whole Mighty Pichit family.
> 
> Pathetic weakling.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Yes, I've seen this horrible fight.


What´s a "weakling", lester ? I have no idea...


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> What´s a "weakling", lester ? I have no idea...


The very opposite of Pichit "The Unbeatable God" Sitbangprachan.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> The very opposite of Pichit "The Unbeatable God" Sitbangprachan.


You saying he quit ? It looked like Victor Ortiz reaction against Collazo, yes. But he took many punches from Gamez, I´m not going to blame him all that much...


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> You saying he quit ? It looked like Victor Ortiz reaction against Collazo, yes. But he took many punches from Gamez, I´m not going to blame him all that much...


No, he didn't quit.

Siriwat actually looked pretty good despite losing the fight.

It's no surprise he became champion eventually


----------



## Vic

Fair enough.


----------



## Jdempsey85

HAWK TIME


----------



## Jdempsey85

Aaron pryor destroying lennox blackmore.Devastating from pryor


----------



## tommygun711

Winky Wright vs Fernando Vargas

Fun fight this, really technical WAR largely fought at close quarters. Wright's totally content with slugging with Vargas despite being the superior boxer. I've never actually scored it and people always unofficially call it a win for Wright. 

Round 1: Wright, close.
Round 2: Wright, superior volume.. Lovely body work
Round 3: Vargas. Good bodywork and combination punching. Vargas' power playing dividends. 
Round 4: Vargas. Vargas landing alot of quality combinations. Choosing to slug with Vargas turning out to not be a good idea. 
Round 5: Vargas.
Round 6: Wright. Still a very competitive fight. Wright's jab + straight left hand a huge weapon, won him the round
Round 7: Wright. Great activity from both guys, this round is a pick em'.
Round 8: Wright, but close. A rest round for both men. 
Round 9: Wright. Wright knocks Vargas' mouthpiece out at the end of the round with a nice left hand, the most significant action of the round.
Round 10: Vargas. Vargas rallies back with a volley of power punches, trying to take the fight. 
Round 11: Wright. Close round. 
Round 12: Vargas. 

7-5 Wright. Not quite a robbery but a bad decision IMO. Wright shoulda took that.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Oh my god Victor Galindez vs Richie Kates Jesus christ what a incredible battle WOW


----------



## Vic

Rewatching Hopkins vs Trinidad right now.....interesting to see that Tito landed a few (rare) shots in Hopkins and Hopkins took them well (I´m talking about Tito´s left hook!!).


----------



## Vic

Jdempsey85 said:


> Oh my god Victor Galindez vs Richie Kates Jesus christ what a incredible battle WOW


You watched the first one ? It is one of my favorite fights of all time, sadly it´s not on yt no more.....


----------



## Vic

B-Hop owned Tito in every possible way :lol: Amazing performance IMO.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Vic said:


> You watched the first one ? It is one of my favorite fights of all time, sadly it´s not on yt no more.....


Ye gonna watch the sequel tonight.Definitely in my top 5 fights.Ive seen loads of peoples lists of their fav fights cant recall this being recommended.What a ending too amazing


----------



## Vic

Gonna watch some Saad Muhammad tonight.....he is a guy that I didn´t watch carefully, Looking forward to it.. I watched Yaqui Lopez II before, Conteh, can´t even remember which one right now, the Johnson bouts many years ago, on ESPN, this was probably 2006 or something.. watched 4 Saad fights basically, all of those many years ago...


----------



## LittleRed

Vic said:


> Gonna watch some Saad Muhammad tonight.....he is a guy that I didn´t watch carefully, Looking forward to it.. I watched Yaqui Lopez II before, Conteh, can´t even remember which one right now, the Johnson bouts many years ago, on ESPN, this was probably 2006 or something.. watched 4 Saad fights basically, all of those many years ago...


There are few joys greater in life than watching Saad fight.


----------



## Vic

LittleRed said:


> There are few joys greater in life than watching Saad fight.


Cool...who you watching these days ?


----------



## LittleRed

Vic said:


> Cool...who you watching these days ?


Rewatching some 90 ' s guys. Barrera pre Hamed (@Pederrs) and Jones' run at light heavy.


----------



## Vic

LittleRed said:


> There are few joys greater in life than watching Saad fight.


I´m watching Saad vs Johnson I right now.....not the first time I watch this one, so I´m not surprised by anything, I knew it was a great war, etc. But it´s the first time I rewatch it, I believe. 
So I´ll be a bit harsh now, okay ? Saad didn´t know he was allowed to defend himself ? Johnson hits him with anything he wants, such a easy target for the uppercut for example. Saad´s head movement pretty much is zero too..I give him a discount though, because most of the punches landing are those left uppercuts, which is a very difficult punch to defend anyway, the left uppercut from the southpaw I mean...

Edit- gonna finish to watch the fight another day..


----------



## McGrain

Shannon Briggs MD12 George Foreman

Kinda funny watching Briggs move like this, shame he can't do it now he might have been able to hold onto his shoes there the other week. You can see why there was hype about this guy and why it even survived the early loss. Sadly, I also saw a documentary recently where he was just a kid talking about how he wouldn't go on too long because he'd have too much money...

...nifty jab from Briggs in the first round to cement that mobility and a nice fluidity in a varied two-punch approach, looks better all over. Foreman's thumping jab already a bit sinister, but it's a clear Briggs round for me, but he is moving a shitload. I understand the genesis but it's disturbing to me that they send in an asthmatic heavyweight with this moving plan. It's not something you can do for 12 rounds against a pressure-giant who knows the ring.

To be fair, Briggs tries to tighten his circle a bit in two and starts shipping those awkward, torqueless thumpers. In the third though, Foreman shows a great combination of technique and economy to close the speed gap. Foreman's one-two is dangerous because there is so little distance between the 1 and the 2. He's used economy of technique to get across those punches at whatever expense, power, whatever. He gets across a couple of rights behind his jab in the third round in with that horrible insistent stalking. Briggs looks uncomfortable physically and mentally.

The left-hook on the bell won a close fourth for Foreman IMO, but he showed real good shorter-arm stuff in this round, almost Calzaghe like in terms of his balanceless balance on offence, getting off from positions where his punches shouldn't carry, but they do.

Nevertheless, I some how had them even at the half way point - I thought Briggs potshotted his way to a narrow win in round 5 and legitimately out-boxed Foreman for much of the sixth to make it 3-3, before going into a lead when George took the seventh off.

After winning the 8th and 9th, Foreman looked to me to be on his way to streaking in the 10th - only for Briggs to rocket out some really, really hard punches at bell and nick it on my card. That's arguable, definitely, but I think that the Briggs taking it is ok too. After Briggs taking the eleventh on a series of sniping left hooks, a couple of which even land, haha, I have Foreman needin a knockout for the win. Wtf, I don't remember this fight being like this. Foreman took the 12th, of course, so I have this a draw. Crazy shinanigans. Wrong? Only the 2nd and 6th are _really_ arguable IMO. 10th should be Briggs.

FOREMAN: 1,3,4,8,9,12
BRIGGS: 2,5,6,7,10,11,


----------



## McGrain

Punchstats for Briggs-Foreman:

223-284 Connect
494-484 Thrown
45%-58%

These are clear for Foreman, sixty punches is a lot. So, say they're out by as many as 20 punches each way, that's still 20 more punches Foreman which is a significant difference allowing for a huge swing in punchstats.

Fuck, I'm not doing that fight again.


----------



## Flea Man

McGrain said:


> Shannon Briggs MD12 George Foreman
> 
> Kinda funny watching Briggs move like this, shame he can't do it now he might have been able to hold onto his shoes there the other week. You can see why there was hype about this guy and why it even survived the early loss. Sadly, I also saw a documentary recently where he was just a kid talking about how he wouldn't go on too long because he'd have too much money...
> 
> ...nifty jab from Briggs in the first round to cement that mobility and a nice fluidity in a varied two-punch approach, looks better all over. Foreman's thumping jab already a bit sinister, but it's a clear Briggs round for me, but he is moving a shitload. I understand the genesis but it's disturbing to me that they send in an asthmatic heavyweight with this moving plan. It's not something you can do for 12 rounds against a pressure-giant who knows the ring.
> 
> To be fair, Briggs tries to tighten his circle a bit in two and starts shipping those awkward, torqueless thumpers. In the third though, Foreman shows a great combination of technique and economy to close the speed gap. Foreman's one-two is dangerous because there is so little distance between the 1 and the 2. He's used economy of technique to get across those punches at whatever expense, power, whatever. He gets across a couple of rights behind his jab in the third round in with that horrible insistent stalking. Briggs looks uncomfortable physically and mentally.
> 
> The left-hook on the bell won a close fourth for Foreman IMO, but he showed real good shorter-arm stuff in this round, almost Calzaghe like in terms of his balanceless balance on offence, getting off from positions where his punches shouldn't carry, but they do.
> 
> Nevertheless, I some how had them even at the half way point - I thought Briggs potshotted his way to a narrow win in round 5 and legitimately out-boxed Foreman for much of the sixth to make it 3-3, before going into a lead when George took the seventh off.
> 
> After winning the 8th and 9th, Foreman looked to me to be on his way to streaking in the 10th - only for Briggs to rocket out some really, really hard punches at bell and nick it on my card. That's arguable, definitely, but I think that the Briggs taking it is ok too. After Briggs taking the eleventh on a series of sniping left hooks, a couple of which even land, haha, I have Foreman needin a knockout for the win. Wtf, I don't remember this fight being like this. Foreman took the 12th, of course, so I have this a draw. Crazy shinanigans. Wrong? Only the 2nd and 6th are _really_ arguable IMO. 10th should be Briggs.
> 
> FOREMAN: 1,3,4,8,9,12
> BRIGGS: 2,5,6,7,10,11,


I thought all talk of a robbery was unfair. Close fight either way, 115-113 either way or a draw is fine.


----------



## McGrain

Ray Mercer UD12 Bert Cooper

After yesterday, I deserve this.

First round is just Mercer in microcosm. Hit, hurt, bleeding, neglecting to move his head, he scores with a massive punch to deck Cooper - ready to quit Cooper in these days - then inexplicably forgets to follow up mostly pawing and mauling in the remainder of the round. He mauled, too, in the second, after a reasonably bright start but actually while he was in there he developed a rather decent inside game, banging out short, stout punches whilst leaning on his man, generally forcing Cooper back. It's a reminder that at 6'1 and 77" he doesn't have a heavyweight frame, but that other things are possible. Shortarm attack is a bit of a natural. 

Having yet to have mastered what would become a really good jab, Mercer is even more susceptable to the prodding over the top shots that Cooper landed in the third and fourth, but a winging insistence bought him the first of these in the dying seconds; every power-punch in the book bought him the fourth, at the same stage. Nothing else would have got it done as Cooper opened the round landing genuinely booming right hands. It's worth noting that this was the fight that confirmed Mercer's chin and, when it's on, his heart, as he fired back after each and every one of these punches. He paid a price in the fifth, landing a hard right and left hook in the opening minute but spending the rest of the round dancing a slow waltz whilst being outlanded.

This prod-and-plod cost him in the sixth, however, as despite his cutting Cooper's eye during his opening salvo, he shipped numerous short-hooks whilst head-to-head, forgetting his infighting performance of the second. Both jaw and lip appear injured and Cooper takes his first round of the fight. The seventh is pandemonium as Mercer tries to keep Cooper off with a jab and a shove but Cooper insists. Mercer shades a near-epic round on the harder punching, probably also the case in the tamer eighth.

By the ninth, Mercer's visage was grotesque indeed and he seemed not to know quite where he wanted Cooper, pushing him out and pulling him in by turns. Cooper probably managed to take advantage and outwork him in this and the next. Normal service was resumed in the eleventh. Both men showed fortitude, courage and good stamina. Crowd knows what they are seeing, too.


MERCER:1,2,3,4,5,7,8,11,12
COOPER:6,9,10,

9-3 Mercer, not close enough to be a great fight but a real good one I think.


----------



## McGrain

Flea Man said:


> I thought all talk of a robbery was unfair. Close fight either way, 115-113 either way or a draw is fine.


me too


----------



## Flea Man

I really like Mercer. He could box, he could bang, he was hard as nails, he could scrap, and he could never really put it all together.


----------



## Vic

Vic said:


> I´m watching Saad vs Johnson I right now.....not the first time I watch this one, so I´m not surprised by anything, I knew it was a great war, etc. But it´s the first time I rewatch it, I believe.
> So I´ll be a bit harsh now, okay ? Saad didn´t know he was allowed to defend himself ? Johnson hits him with anything he wants, such a easy target for the uppercut for example. Saad´s head movement pretty much is zero too..I give him a discount though, because most of the punches landing are those left uppercuts, which is a very difficult punch to defend anyway, the left uppercut from the southpaw I mean...
> 
> Edit- gonna finish to watch the fight another day..


I could finally finish now, great war and Saad is tough as hell (I knew that already).
Gonna watch his fight with Kates tomorrow, or another day when I have the chance...


----------



## McGrain

Flea Man said:


> I really like Mercer. He could box, he could bang, he was hard as nails, he could scrap, and he could never really put it all together.


Underrated like a motherfucker.


----------



## LittleRed

Mercer ' s mid round bribe is brilliant.


----------



## Flea Man

McGrain said:


> Underrated like a motherfucker.


Better than Elmer Ray


----------



## McGrain

LittleRed said:


> Mercer ' s mid round bribe is brilliant.





Flea Man said:


> Better than Elmer Ray


Whoa, whoa whoa!


----------



## LittleRed

McGrain said:


> Whoa, whoa whoa!


Nothing controversial had been said here other than you thinking mother fuckers are underrated.


----------



## Vic

Why Saad vs Kates is not mentioned all the time when people talk about wars ? It is as good as anything out there, Saad looks better, technically speaking, in this fight than in the Johnson one btw....
I love Kates, pretty good fighter.


----------



## Flea Man

Vic said:


> Why Saad vs Kates is not mentioned all the time when people talk about wars ? It is as good as anything out there, Saad looks better, technically speaking, in this fight than in the Johnson one btw....
> I love Kates, pretty good fighter.


I f'n love that fight.


----------



## thehook13




----------



## McGrain

Ray Mercer UD10 Tim Witherspoon.

Very, very difficult fight to score this, nightmarish maybe. Very interesting though, with Mercer just planting himself in front of Witherspoon and Witherspoon just making his peace with that. He knows he doesn't have the legs for anything but. So you have a situation where Witherspoon tries to establish his jab up the middle and uses bodypunches to create conservatism and gather power-punching points whilst Mercer is allowed to dominate the exchanges to head. Although Witherspoon probably lands more punches in the fight, Mercer probably punches harder, so decoding the rounds comes down to weighing body-punching and its value which is certainly interesting from a judging point of view.

I thought Witherspoon took the first three on those two factors, jab, bodyblows, but there was also a beaut of a right-hand half way through round two. This is a prohibitive lead in a ten round fight. In the fourth, Mercer added a right-uppercut to his offence and Witherspoon just seemed immediately consufed by it and Mercer's marriage to it - it led to a dominating round for "Merciless." It feels like a big change of momentum, Mercer indefatigable, Witherspoon tiring...in fact, he was to come roaring back in the fifth, taking it on fire-fighting, basically out-punching Mercer in two exchanges and out-boxing him in between. One right-hand in particular was of the type that only a granite-chinned fighter could have survived it. Not dis-similar punches bought Mercer the sixth and by now out-jabbing Tim, he also grabbed the seventh and eighth, making it even after 8.

The ninth was strange in that Mercer was the one boxing-away and holding at opportune moments in a basic reversal of expected behaviour. An excellent Witherspoon body-attack was countered by some savage uppercuts from Mercer; Witherspoon outlanded Mercer, but i'm weighing just in Mercer's favour in this round despite an earlier preference for Witherspoon's bodywork. The reason is that Mercer was so able to ride these punches - they had no affect on him. I was very close to scoring this round even, which might be the right way to go, but tied rounds were a thing of a past by this point in boxing's arch, generally.

So going into the tenth, I have Mercer ahead for the first time and he clearly out-fought Witherspoon in that final round, a cracking one. I kind of wish I had found the ninth for Witherspoon because a draw would have been nice - but Mercer as a winner is fine.

WITHERSPOON:1,2,3,5,
MERCER:4,6,7,8,9,10

6-4 MERCER


----------



## thehook13

De La Hoya/Gatti

Only wanted to comment on Foremans commentating. I couldn't help but think he had a grudge against Oscar or something. He refused to give him any credit, constantly backing the other guy who was getting bashed. Looked pretty bad even for Foremans standards


----------



## Michael

Bernard Hopkins, what a fucking fighter! Nuff said


----------



## McGrain

Michael said:


> Bernard Hopkins, what a fucking fighter! Nuff said


Aye.


----------



## McGrain

Trevor Berbick UD10 Muhammad Ali

Ali takes the first in this weirdest of nights, primarily with, of all things, a lead right hand over the top. He also uses a left-hook occasionally, only slightly less bizarre if for different reasons...it's weird, too, watching Ali economise although there's a sense that he isn't doing so carefully enough and is punching too much whilst moving almost exclusively to his left. Very odd...Berbick is looking to use aggression but he's not gung ho. Very aggressive inside to the body when he gets there. I thought Ali nicked the second, too, with a final minute rally that was made up of jabs and right hands. It is clear though that Ali will probably tire by degrees and as he does he will become more vulnerable to Berbick's attack. I thought he also stole the third with the three hardest punches of the round, but he was outworked and looked a little ragged at the round's end, pinned in his own corner.

So at the opening of the fourth, I have Ali three up, but he got beaten up a bit in the fourth, Berbick establishing what passes for his left and Ali becoming tentative about his straight right, turning it almost into an overhand sometimes. Berbick brutalises him to the body. Hurts to watch and _should be_ a turning point in the fight. I couldn't split them in the fifth however, and I gave the sixth to Berbick only on the very last punches of the round. It was such a close round, and I was leaning to Ali for most of it, but he just lost all his snap despite having landed the better punches throughout, for what they were worth. Firing back Ali's head with a left hand is what bought the sixth for him on my card. So I have Ali one up with four remaining.

Berbick flat "out-youthed" him in the seventh, swarming two-handed and driving him about the ring. Ali just doesn't have the strength to physcially handle him up close, which is sad to see given that he did it to fucking George Foreman. He's trying to rope-a-dope and wrestle, but doesn't have the reactions for the former or the strength for the later.

So that should be it. Except this is Ali. And being Ali, he pulls something else out of the hat, and in the eighth he starts to dance, popping out his jab, moving beautifully for the first time. A certain freshness and sharpness seemed miraculously restored. It is hard to hold the hope in the voices of the commentary team as they discuss his possible strategy for rounds 9 and 10 against them.

He won the round, in the final twenty seconds with two jab right-hands. I have Berbick needing 9 and 10 to win. He got the ninth, not on anything particularly special or interesting, but on general workrate and because he was strong enough to work even when Ali was trying to clinch. So for me, it came down to a box-off in the tenth.

I had to score it for Bebrick. He just did more, landed more hard punches, was the better man. Ali tried like hell, and I wish he had a little bit more so he could have won or so at least I could have had him the winner on my card, but he was edged out, narrower than that crap official cards would have you believe I think. I had no idea it was this close. Never scored it until now. Really excellent fight. Something weird about watching the final seconds of a career like Ali's, something mad about it.

BERBICK:4,6,7,9,10
ALI:1,2,3,8,
EVEN:5,

BERBICK - 6-4-1


----------



## McGrain

Also - when the decision was read, Berbick seemed to say, "I did it with discretion!" Which was odd.


----------



## LittleRed

McGrain said:


> Also - when the decision was read, Berbick seemed to say, "I did it with discretion!" Which was odd.


You think he carried him?


----------



## McGrain

LittleRed said:


> You think he carried him?


No, I think he was just. Mad.


----------



## LittleRed

McGrain said:


> No, I think he was just. Mad.


Ah. I can't watch Ali post spinks. It's hard watching a guy that damaged be hurt more.

Anyway I was reading that book by McRae whatsit, Heroes without a country, about Louis and Jesse Owens and in it be claimed that later in his career Louis was suffering from neurological damage which is why his right hand was only good for wiping his ass. His reflexes on that side were shot.


----------



## McGrain

LittleRed said:


> Ah. I can't watch Ali post spinks. It's hard watching a guy that damaged be hurt more.
> 
> Anyway I was reading that book by McRae whatsit, Heroes without a country, about Louis and Jesse Owens and in it be claimed that later in his career Louis was suffering from neurological damage which is why his right hand was only good for wiping his ass. His reflexes on that side were shot.


It would explain why he was all jab? Is it decent, is there evidence?


----------



## LittleRed

McGrain said:


> It would explain why he was all jab? Is it decent, is there evidence?


Well I need to look further but he's the only one that has mentioned it. The only factors that keep me from dismissing it out of hand is that 1. It fits with what we know about Louis and 2. Louis was diagnosed with puglistic dementia so we are almost positive be had brain damage.


----------



## tommygun711

Tyson vs Tucker 

Round 1: Tucker

Round 2: Tyson

Round 3: Tucker

Round 4: Tyson

Round 5: Tyson

Round 6: Tucker 

Round 7: Tyson

Round 8: Tyson

Round 9: Tyson

Round 10: Tyson

Round 11: Tucker

Round 12: Tyson

8-4 Tyson, Tyson looked good with his jab, intelligent pressure and combinations. Tucker kept in the fight with his movement, clinching and his toughness.. Kudos to him, gave Tyson one of his toughest fights ever.


----------



## McGrain

Michael Moorer MD12 Evander Holyfield

Holyfield took the first with a good in-fighitng uppercut to the torso and two really, really neat, hard flurries towards the end of the round...but I thought Moorer's southpaw jabbed looked a bit better than Holyfield's jab. This was the weapon, primarily, that he used to control Moorer with in the second, although he also found solid right hooks to three-times buzz Evander. IT'S Moorer that gets dropped though, in a BIG swing round, going from 10-9 Moorer to 10-8 Holyfield. I don't find too much fault though with the judge that scored it to Holyfield by just a point.

Two really fast rounds these, and at HW, you won't see many fought at this pace that are also technically better. At the half way point, I had Holyfield ahead by virtue of the KD, but seeing Moorer out-jab, out-work, and most of all, inflict his own pacing on Holyfield. That shouldn't really be possible. 

Holyfield lots fucking knackered after the sixth, but I still had him flashing enough hurtful looking punches in to take the seventh and the ninth, and despite what the near-hysterical anti-Holyfield feeling in the Sky commentary box which kept insisting that Holyfield was way behind - all the while assigning 10-10 rounds which, had they swung Holfyield's way, would have put him ahead even on the Sky card. Presumably Sky are aware how rare even rounds are in the States? Weird commentary, good fight, which I scored to Moorer by the narrowest of margins.


MOORER:4,5,6,8,10,11,12
HOLYFIELD:1,2*,3,7,9,

114-113 MOORER


----------



## jorodz

Sorry this is a long one, it's my first post in a while. 
Pac-Bradley 2, gave it to Pac 118-111

Pac	Bradley
10	10

-solid right hand from bradley
-pac is fast, sharp crowd cheers for everything
-mostly feinting

10	9
-pac flurrying but not hitting much
-bradley confident
-pac lands a nice right hand
-beauty left by pac!
-bradley wings right but pac is on him
-bradley comes back big
-bradley sloppy, pac much tighter
-watch the head…
-Nice straight right by Bradley
-pac’s round

10	9
Pac more aggressive
Bradley on the backfoot
Nice left by pac 
1-2 lands and Bradley in a shell
Bradley looks hesitant 
Bradley gets him against the ropes
Nice counter by pac!
Pac’s accuracy is up
Bradley digging hard
Bradley looks good coming forward, fearless
Body shots and a nice uppercut!
Pac sharp with the right
Jones is right: Bradley loading up for knockdown

9	10
Bradley out on fire
Loading up with the right
Pac is moving well, Bradley still coming forward
Bradley lands a right
Pac comes right back 
Bradley still landing the nicer cleaner shots so far
Trades shots, pac hurt!
Pac was tattered by bardley doesn’t capitalize
Bradley lazily tries to pick shots on a moving pac
Pac’s right is beautiful but Bradley too aggressive for him
Pac slams a right that Bradley walks through
First Bradley round

9	10
Bradley loading up!
Pac’s movement is WONDERFUL, Bradley off balance
Bradley comning to the body big time. It’s working
Pac gets caught every time he hits the ropes
Bradley lands nice right hands
Bradley winning so far…
Bradley very confident but walking in with left very low

10	9
Nothing much in the first 30
Bradley throwing but not landing. Pac doing nothing
Pac comes in and lands
Pac landing sharp, sharp counters
Bradley swings like a motherfucker!
Pac totally taking over
Bradley throwing for knockout, lands nothing clean
Pac flurries, lands little but his round

10	9
Pac waiting for counters
Pac landing well with the right
Trading shots but pac coming out ahead
Bradley has forgone defense coming forward
Bradley hits nothing and he’s gassed
Pac lands right, then SHARP left 
Pac looks like his old self…he’s pissed
He is looking to hurt Bradley and he is
Pac nails him, hurts him twice
BIG pac round

10	9
Bradley again walks straight, winging punches
Pac walking him down
Pac throwing the left to hurt him
Bradley has a great jab that he never uses
Bradley investing in the uppercut but is sloppy with him
Pac throws two straight lefts, not sure if landed
Pac hurts him again
Bradley is trying to mug, looks dumb and is vulnerable
Pac lands straight left
Pac with sloppy flurry

10	9
Bradley hits a sloppy 1-2
Loves pac’s jab/hook right hand
Bradley slips, looks for a hand 
Falls again, not sure if punch
Pac is just moving forward looking for blood
Pac landing and Bradley’s defense sucks 
Pac landing clean and lots 
Pac is picking him apart…
Bradley’s jab is great. Throws one

10	9
Bradley lands a few short punches
Pac grinding him down
Straight right stuns Bradley
Kellerman awesome analogy on Bradley/Pac
Pac landing with ease
Pac hitting big big punches

10	9

Pac backing Bradley up constantly
Pac working and working, not taking breathers
Fucking tremendous fight
Ok admittedly slow round
Bradley doing nothing and giving it to Pac
Pac and Bradley both land
Pac comes in like a laser!
Pac just far too fast, far too good

10 9
Generous of Harold
Pac coming forward…he wants this round
He’s fucking taking it
Bradley hurt
Pac cautious but aggressive. This is a smart pac
Pac just outclassing him at this point
Pac avoiding and blocking everything (except that punch)
Headbutt
Bradley flurries and pac lands

Pac	Bradley

118	111


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Marquez vs Vazquez Part III

Vazquez- 5,6,8,9,10 (10-8)12 (10-8)

Marquez-1,2,3,4 (10-8),7,11

113-112 Vazquez just as the 3rd judge scored

Marquez stunned twice in round 1 but had the more consistent and effective work I felt and connected on some hard shots after Vazquez hurt him to reestablish control of the fight back in his favor

Again Vazquez rocked Marquez in round 2 on a left hook and connected on a right but the better work throughout by Marquez who also finished the round on a solid connect

Round 4 turned the fight into the war we waited for, the fight was high pace but didnt have the back and forth drama yet Marquez was in control. The knockdown awaken Vazquez who went on the assault and was earning back the point to make it 10-9 instead of 10-8 but then got nailed by a solid right hand and definitely stays the 10-8. Fight has changed though

Gave Vazquez 5 but its close he was hurt by a hard right hand but hurt Marquez late came forward well and seemed to impose himself better

6 was tough, Marquez is busier and boxes well and controls the pace but now Vazquez is getting hit a little less and landing a little more and is really starting to hurt Marquez got it 4-2 with an extra point halfway thru though it can easily be a sweep or possibly even in rounds 

8 was razor thin as each guy had moments with neither guy separating themselves but then the last few seconds Vazquez sustained a rally and hurt Marquez securing the round 

Gave 9 to Vazquez despite getting popped late

Dont like to score a 10-8 when a guy does not leave his feet but 12 would probably have been appropriate, made the difference on my card

The rounds I felt were hardest to score were 5,6,7,11 and maybe 9

5 I gave to Vazquez and that may have been more the case of a momentum round more than anything, 6 was Vazquez but Marquez could easily have been awarded it. 7 I gave to Marquez again its any mans round 11 I gave to Marquez but I think the commentary was more Vazquez and 9 was a round where Vazquez got hurt late and unlike a few rounds where late attacks swung the tide I still gave it to him

I agreed with Bernstein mostly that Marquez dictated the tempo and boxed well with sharp punching and limited the hell out of Vazquez whose success was limited to momentarily wobbling Marquez several times in the first few rounds and I felt most of those moments were answered by Marquez with sharp right hands of his own

close fight indeed


----------



## tommygun711

Johnny Tapia vs Danny Romero

Really quality fight this, extremely competitive. Tactical chessmatch. A grudge match. Stylistically they matched up well. Tapia was faster, the better combination puncher, and was more explosive but Romero probably had the better fundamentals and seemed to utilize his jab a bit more.

The fight starts with the two fighters exchanging their best punches. They are both loading up with their very best shots. like Merchant said every punch had dynamite on it. Bad intentions. You could feel the tension just oozing out of Tapia's body. Tapia immediately invests in his dipping left hook to the body and Romero uses his right uppercut. Tapia is so intense with every combination he throws. Tapia's double left hand - whether it be a left uppercut upstairs, left hook to the body or left hook upstairs left hook downstairs it's a beautiful combination. Tapia looks at his best here, counter-punching but also being aggressive when necessary. 

Early on Romero seems to be a step behind Tapia. Tapia outlands him. He out works Romero. He controls the action and wins basically every exchange with his quicker hands and more explosive combos. Romero occasionally will land a nice power shot but Tapia's great chin holds up. It seems Tapia was just full of energy even at the end of a heated exchange; Tapia leaps into the air, sticking his chin out, pumping up the crowd, etc.

Romero finally starts landing his own power shots after losing the first 4 rounds. The 5th round was Romero's most effective round, hands down. He measures Tapia with some hard left jabs, and lands a couple hard right hands that would have knocked out lesser men. Tapia, as usual, shows his remarkable chin by taking those shots. 

Romero has another good round in the 6th as Tapia shows a bit of inactivity. Romero starts commanding the action with his left jabs and for the first time showing off his left hook. Romero begins the 7th round by landing a nice right hand over the top. As usual, whenever Romero lands with a really good punch Tapia clowns him, this time putting his gloves on the canvas. Romero has had 3 very good rounds in a row with his power shots. 

Tapia starts doing things that got him success in the first 4 rounds of the fight. He begins digging to the body with the left hook, and throwing quick combinations. Close round. Romero maybe took it with his bigger power shots. 

Tapia has a great round in the 9th. Landing big, lightning fast combinations upstairs and showing great head movement. In the 10th Tapia shows his unorthodox combinations as he lands some uppercuts and establishes his hard left jab. Tapia sticks and moves with his jabs and right hands; pulling back from punches.

In the last couple rounds Tapia tries to leave no doubt in the judges mind that he won the fight. He lands his signature left hook to the body, and lands some great combos. Great fight.

Both very well schooled fighters. Romero was by no means a bad fighter. This fight just proves he was clearly a level below Tapia. Tapia consistently lands first, he consistently lands that stiff left hook to the body.

Tapia: 1,2,3,4,9,10,11,

Romero: 5,6,7,8,12

7-5 Johnny Tapia

Great fight. This is boxing to me.


----------



## Lester1583

Chino is Da MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!:ibutt

@Vic


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Chino is Da MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!:ibutt
> 
> @Vic


You know, it´s not like I didn´t say it would be tougher than people were saying, right ? :lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> You know, it´s not like I didn´t say it would be tougher than people were saying, right ? :lol:


You are like Pac's mom - you've casted a power spell on Maidana and put an evil curse on Floyd:scaredas:


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> You are like Pac's mom - you've casted a power spell on Maidana and put an evil curse on Floyd:scaredas:


When Chavez Sr said that (that he thought Maidana was a hard fight for Floyd, harder than Cotto for example) I started to put more faith in Maidana´s chances. Still, I picked Floyd and did not expect to see Maidana giving him a fight were there are at least 6 rounds that you can give to him.


----------



## SJS20

@Vic

Have you watched it for a second time, Sir?


----------



## Vic

SJS20 said:


> @Vic
> 
> Have you watched it for a second time, Sir?


No. Why ? I´m not saying Maidana won btw. But I´m sure most rounds were close, head punches looks better but body punches count just as much.....judging as a whole because I didn´t score it round by round yet) both guys had equally good moments, Maidana the first part, Floyd the second part, Floyd won 1 or 2 rounds in the first part, Maidana certainly won at least 1 of the last ones as I can remember this very well...


----------



## SJS20

Vic said:


> No. Why ? I´m not saying Maidana won btw. But I´m sure most rounds were close, head punches looks better but body punches count just as much.....


I know, I know.

I watched it live last night, and had it 7-5 Mayweather whilst ignoring a gut feeling about a draw. I then re-watched it this afternoon, and had it a more comfortable 8-4, because I think the drama of 'Oh god he can actually land on Mayweather' wasn't a factor.

Just curious, if you re-watch, please let me know your score.


----------



## Vic

SJS20 said:


> I know, I know.
> 
> I watched it live last night, and had it 7-5 Mayweather whilst ignoring a gut feeling about a draw. I then re-watched it this afternoon, and had it a more comfortable 8-4, because I think the drama of 'Oh god he can actually land on Mayweather' wasn't a factor.
> 
> Just curious, if you re-watch, please let me know your score.


Okay I will, edited my post and explained my point better btw.


----------



## tommygun711

I felt Floyd won 7-5. 8 would must mean Floyd won all of the rounds after round 4, and I think Maidana won at least one of the later rounds.


----------



## Vic

Rewatching it right now. 
Round 1 - Maidana, clearly.
Round 2- Close, but Maidana landed brutal body punches...what Floyd did ? 10-9 Maidana.


----------



## Vic

Round 3 - 10-9 Maidana
Round 4 - 10-9 Maidana
Mayweather is not landning anything....Maidana is not landing numerous shots except some body punches but well, Floyd is doint really nothing relevant...

Fight changes now, I know.....but to me, those first 4, were all Maidana..


----------



## Vic

Round 5 - Maidana with two pretty good right hands to the head and plenty of rights to the body...Maidana also took the better of the clinching stuff in the last seconds as well. 
10-9 Maidana.

Round 6 - Mayweather landed 1 clean uppercut, it is the only clean punch Floyd had.... until the last 30 seconds, when he wins the round with a few more clean punches, but it was close because Maidana landed, again, plenty of right hands to the body that are being forgotten by everybody while watching this fight.
10-9 Mayweather


----------



## Vic

Round 7 - 10-9 Mayweather, clear. Maidana had his moments with his body assault as always though....
Round 8 - 1:43 left in the round.....and I´m sorry but what Floyd did here ? Maidana is fucking him up with his body assault again, some are ladning, if not cleanly they have enough impact to be more than nothing, which is what Floyd is doing so far, nothing.....
Floyd now lands some good body shots too.....not enough to win the round. 
Very close 10-9 Maidana though.

Round 9- 10-9 Mayweather, very clear. Maidana didn´t won a round as clear as Floyd did here. 
Round 10- 10-9 Mayweather for quantity.. but it was close, Maidana lands a great left hand to Floyd´s stomach and also a right hand to the body in the last 15 seconds or something...
Round 11- 10-9 Mayweather.....Maidana had his moments, but floyd started and fisnihed better with that clean right in the last seconds.
Round 12- Maidana made it close by what he did when there was 1:20 left, I´m sorry just check that and you´ll see it.....Floyd started better and finished better though. 
10-9 Mayweather.

114-114, my result for this fight is a DRAW. @SJS20


----------



## Vysotsky

1 - Maidana (clear)
2 - Mayweather (swing round)
3 - Maidana (clear)
4 - Maidana (clear)
5 - Maidana (clear)
6 - Maidana (close but Maidana won the 1st and 2nd minute, Floyd the 3rd. Marcos won the majority of the rd and landed more overall)
7 - Mayweather (clear)
8 - Maidana (close)
9 - Mayweather (clear)
10 - Mayweather (close)
11 - Mayweather (close swing round)
12 - Maidana (close)

115-113 Maidana

Mayweather only won two rounds clearly (7,9)...let that sink in. I gave Mayweather 3 of the 5 close rounds although switching rd 2 and rd 12 for each guy is probably more appropriate. I honestly don't see how Floyd could have won and people saying 8-4 Mayweather are either fanboys or have unintentionally had their minds warped by the media manufactured "aura of greatness" surrounding Floyd. Understandably people desire to feel like they are part of witnessing "historical greatness" which clouds their objectivity.

For example most of what i read and heard about McFarland vs Gibbons said Packey won pretty clear yet when i viewed the HL God among Men @*Flea Man* posted i thought the opposite was true from the viewable action. If we were living 70 years in the future having heard about this fight with no vested interest in either man and saw it for the first time i don't think many would have Floyd winning it. Add to that all of the economic ramifications and ungodly amount of money Floyd generates for the sport, Nevada, Golden Boy, etc and you know he's never losing a decision on the cards.

@*Vic*


----------



## Flea Man

Any score of 116-112 for Floyd, or 115-113 either way (or a draw) is perfectly acceptable, there were a few swing rounds in there.


----------



## Vic

Vysotsky said:


> 1 - Maidana (clear)
> 2 - Mayweather (swing round)
> 3 - Maidana (clear)
> 4 - Maidana (clear)
> 5 - Maidana (clear)
> 6 - Maidana (close but Maidana won the 1st and 2nd minute, Floyd the 3rd. Marcos won the majority of the rd and landed more overall)
> 7 - Mayweather (clear)
> 8 - Maidana (close)
> 9 - Mayweather (clear)
> 10 - Mayweather (close)
> 11 - Mayweather (close swing round)
> 12 - Maidana (close)
> 
> 115-113 Maidana
> 
> Mayweather only won two rounds clearly (7,9)...let that sink in. I gave Mayweather 3 of the 5 close rounds although switching rd 2 and rd 12 for each guy is probably more appropriate. I honestly don't see how Floyd could have won and people saying 8-4 Mayweather are either fanboys or have unintentionally had their minds warped by the media manufactured "aura of greatness" surrounding Floyd. Understandably people desire to feel like they are part of witnessing "historical greatness" which clouds their objectivity.
> 
> For example most of what i read and heard about McFarland vs Gibbons said Packey won pretty clear yet when i viewed the HL God among Men @*Flea Man* posted i thought the opposite was true from the viewable action. If we were living 70 years in the future having heard about this fight with no vested interest in either man and saw it for the first time i don't think many would have Floyd winning it. Add to that all of the economic ramifications and ungodly amount of money Floyd generates for the sport, Nevada, Golden Boy, etc and you know he's never losing a decision on the cards.
> 
> @*Vic*


Good scorecard, round 12 is a tricky one, like I said Floyd finishes better but it was enough to exceed what Maidana did in the middle of the round ? It´s a good question.


----------



## Vysotsky

Vic said:


> Good scorecard, round 12 is a tricky one, like I said Floyd finishes better but it was enough to exceed what Maidana did in the middle of the round ? It´s a good question.


For close rounds i break it down into minutes asking who won the 1st, 2nd and 3rd minute and by how much of a margin. So in round 12

1st minute - Floyd lands about 4 more quality punches although nothing really hurtful and takes a largely uneventful minute with both guys missing most of what they threw

2nd minute - Maidana lands a few decent body shots in the first half then goes on the attack landing big shots to the head and body winning this minute big

3rd minute - Aside from Floyd landing two good rights nothing of significance happens

So for me winning the uneventful 1st and 3rd minutes by a hair landing literally 4 or 5 additional punches combined and none of them real hurtful shots isn't enough to negate what Maidana did in the 2nd minute winning it by a wide margin and landing the most meaningful power punches in the round.


----------



## Lester1583

Watching Artur Grigorian ravage Gene "ATG" Reed is like watching a prime Kostya with Kalule's legs and Morocho's power kayo baby Broner.

I give this performance 4 HoJoos.


----------



## Lester1583

The Simon Brown-Tyrone Trice rivalry is rarely talked about.

But it definitely deserves some attention.

Lotsa good action.

@Vic
@LittleRed


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> I give this performance 4 HoJoos.


:rofl


----------



## Lester1583

I'm not sure many people have seen this one.

Pre-Maccallum Kalambay versus a very game Giovanni De Marco:


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> The Simon Brown-Tyrone Trice rivalry is rarely talked about.
> 
> But it definitely deserves some attention.
> 
> Lotsa good action.
> 
> @Vic
> @LittleRed


Yes....

... imagine Maidana against both :smile


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> The Simon Brown-Tyrone Trice rivalry is rarely talked about.
> 
> But it definitely deserves some attention.
> 
> Lotsa good action.
> 
> @Vic
> @LittleRed


Wasn't that one of the last fights to go into extra innings. It's been awhile since I watched it but I recall Trice being unable to control himself and fighting Brown which lead to his inevitable defeat. Trice looked real athletic and big if my mind is not playing tricks. The first one is just brutal.

Brown could crack. Didn't he drop Terry Norris with a jab?


----------



## Vic

I remember I had a trhead back on ESB, Simon Brown vs Ricardo Mayorga, who you would pick ? Some people were saying Mayorga would have a good chance....


----------



## tommygun711

....


----------



## LittleRed

Vic said:


> I remember I had a trhead back on ESB, Simon Brown vs Ricardo Mayorga, who you would pick ? Some people were saying Mayorga would have a good chance....


I gotta go with brown, he's a little tidier. But that's the sort of fight where anything could happen. Bombs away and all that.


----------



## tommygun711

Vic said:


> I remember I had a trhead back on ESB, Simon Brown vs Ricardo Mayorga, who you would pick ? Some people were saying Mayorga would have a good chance....


Brown wins. Better all around, better technique & offensive arsenal. Mayorga would always be in the fight though. I've been watching some Simon Brown lately. I'm checking his fight against Luis Santana now. Very competitive fight. Lots of nice inside work. When Brown doubles up on his left hook/uppercut it's a thing of beauty.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> I'm not sure many people have seen this one.
> 
> Pre-Maccallum Kalambay versus a very game Giovanni De Marco:


Lovely stuff.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> I remember I had a trhead back on ESB, Simon Brown vs Ricardo Mayorga, who you would pick ? Some people were saying Mayorga would have a good chance....


Both versions of Brown - the early boxer-puncher & the latter one-dimensional slugger - are superior to Mayorga.


----------



## Vic

They are superior but he was stopped a few times and when you see that fight with Pettway.....well, it makes me think that Mayorga would have a good chance...


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> They are superior but he was stopped a few times and when you see that fight with Pettway.....well, it makes me think that Mayorga would have a good chance...


Brown was way past it by the time he got starched by Pettway.

Mayorga was capable of giving plenty of welters problems.

Brown is one of them.


----------



## Michael

Watched Tim Witherspoon vs Larry Holmes today. Love this fight, really one for the fans, had a little bit of everything in it. I thought Tim Witherspoon won it, but will post my thoughts on it later on. Needless to say, Ive got an immense amount of man love for Terrible Tim right now:yep


----------



## McGrain

Gerrie Coetzee D10 Pinklon Thomas

Pinklon's confidence is really shocking here. He just stands in front of Coetzee and flicks his head to ditch Coetzee's anaemic whilst trying to get across power-punches. For some reason he neglects to establish the jab that would soon be compared to that of Larry Holmes. 

I thought Coetzee was winning until the eighth when Thomas was badly cut, and Thomas went crazy. The American closed the fight out on the cards to make it a draw, it's a good decision in a close, absorbing HW contest. 

COETZEE:2,3,5,6,7
THOMAS:1,4,8,9,10

5-5 DRAW


----------



## McGrain

Felix Trinidad MD12 Oscar De La Hoya

OSCAR: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
TITO: 10,11,12

I guess that scorecard won't be to popular? I actually have never scored this one before. It felt like a robbery to me, it felt like Oscar won it pretty big and that's the way I see it when I actually put pen to paper over it. To be honest, I can't really see how anyone comes up with this fight for Trinidad. The above scorecard doesn't make me comfortable, I hate scoring round after round for one guy, but that's the way I saw it, and if I was to watch it again with "benefit of the doubt" type eyes I think I could only hack up 4 and 9 for Tito. I admit these could be scored either way. That gives me a card of 7-5, at best for Trinidad and I can't see how I could see it any other way.

I thought Oscar's punching was consistently brilliant when he went on the attack, and I think the variety of leads was great to see. He flushes a one-two off a lead left uppercut at one point, leads with hooks to the body, jabs, right hands, you name, every punch really. He doesn't do a lot of punching, but he certainly lands mare than Trinidad by a ways up until he quits fighting. He outlanded him in round 9, which I know is a big one on Tito fan's cards. I think you could give 9 to Tito, but Oscar starts very strong with varied attacks, goes on his bike, but finishes up pretty strong in the last ten seconds with flurries and combos. You can't ignore them as though it were some cheap parlour trick, they are scoring punches, and for me they shadow the round for De La Hoya.

Round 4 is the cricial round to me, as Oscar gets hit hard here twice just standing around and waiting. After that, he never really stops moving, which dominates the flavour of the fight. It works for him though, and Trinidad often looks set in stone, missing punches by literally a foot on a couple of occasions late on. It's such a high energy style though, and I think that gets underplayed a bit. Look how many steps Oscar has to take to keep ahead of Tito in these middle rounds, a ratio of four to one wouldn't surprise me. It's basically an aerobic workout in the middle of a boxing match. There wasn't any decision by Oscar to move those last three rounds, he just didn't have the energy to fight. The best camp he'd ever had couldn't supply him with that kind of energy against a high pressure style. He doesn't get beaten up though, apart from in the twelfth, because Trinidad is knackered also. In fact...they start to look a little like Cotto-Margarito I 

I'm honestly not dengrating them though, in spite of Oscars sometimes stiff-shined gallloping style and Trinidad's muted, thumping pursuit, this is just about Oscar's best display. I thought he won handily and deserved the decision. I think Trinidad got exposed a bit here, finally, but showed good discipline and another facet to his game. He perhaps would have done better had he boxed with a bit less discipine, sometimes though?


----------



## McGrain

Pinklon Thomas MD12 Time Witherspoon

Witherspoon probably takes the first and second on activity in power punches, a couple of which look hurtful, but it's a desperately close round and already Thomas looks to have a slightly, slightly better, more active jab. I also think it's heavier. But Witherspoon is clubbing with the right hand and he's timing it absolutely beautifully, Thomas is at his peak defensively so he's riding, slipping and ditching them often, but it's still the defining punch. Thomas looks more imaginative, the right uppercut up the middle to the body for example.

Third is fascinating. Witherspoon opens with some bulling on the inside, and Thomas has no offence. He's just picking off the Witherspoon jab. By the end of the round, he's landing his own with near-impunity, and getting off with a couple of combos behind it; Witherspoon looks hurt and tired. It was the round in which he established the range and it brought him the third and the fourth, in which he jabbed the hell out of Witherspoon. What this all means in practical terms is that any round in which Witherspoon doesn't do something extraordinary, or in which Thomas doesn't rest, Witherspoon will lose. 

Incredibly, the seventh, eighth and ninth were such rounds, Witherspoon mashing together the benefits of his hard body-punching, his southpaw switching and general superiority inside to tie things up on my card; but the neutral tenth and eleventh almost defaulted to Thomas. 

In an untidy twelfth, it was Thomas who looked the superior man, most especially in the area of defence.

A superb duel fought between world-class technicians at a high pace.

WITHERSPOON:1,2,7,8,9
THOMAS:3,4,5*,6,10,11,12

7-5, 115-112 PINKLON THOMAS

* Point removed for thrice backhanding.


----------



## Michael

Right here's my scorecard for Witherspoon vs Holmes

Round 1: 10-9 Holmes
Round 2: 10-9 Witherspoon
Round 3: 10-9 Witherspoon
Round 4: 10-9 Holmes
Round 5: 10:9 Holmes
Round 6: 10-9 Holmes
Round 7: 10:9 Witherspoon
Round 8: 10-10 Even
Round 9 10-9 Witherspoon
Round 10: 10-9 Holmes
Round 11: 10-9 Witherspoon
Round 12 10-9 Witherspoon

115-114 Tim Witherspoon

Thought Witherspoon was a bit unlucky to lose this, because this was probably the best performance of his career, and one that belies the fact that he was little more than a novice with 15 fights under his belt. He was technically superb in this fight, displaying cracking timing and accuracy in his punches and showing excellent reflexes and a parrying game to offset Holmes's offense, particularly his vaunted left jab. And any man who can take Larry's jab away from him has got to be something special:yep. Spoon made Larry look every bit his 33 years and this was probably the first tell tale sign that he was on the decline

The fight itself was a razor close technical that was very hard to score. You basically had Larry's workrate vs Spoon's methodical accuracy and timing and im sure it was a bit of a head scratcher for the judges. Larry looked like he didn't realize how good spoon really was and found it extremely difficult to unlock his defense. He had to resort to pumping the jab constantly and mixing in some combo's that rarely landed, though he did do enough to carry a lot of the first half of the fight. Spoon seemed to time and counter Larry very in parts and his body attack in particular just couldn't miss. Spoon would have been better served had he upped his workrate in the earlier rounds, as a lot of those were very close and were always going to go to the champ, but all in all he fought a very smart gameplan, part of which was clearly to let Holmes tire himself out, put money in the bank with body shots and then capitalize in the later rounds. 

As the fight wore on, Spoon seemed to bring more urgency into his work and attack the head more, with the 7th round being the first where he really let his punches go in abandon. To his credit Larry stood toe to toe with the younger man in a lot of the exchanges that did take place. The 9th was one of the best round's ive seen in a long time, with Terrible Tim hurting Larry badly with a right hand and then pounding him with head shots for the first half of the round, with Larry stumbling all over the place. A more conservative ref might have stop it there and then, but Larry showed the heart of a champ/amazing powers of recovery to come back the second half of fight and nail Spoon repeatedly with flush right hands, while the younger man was clearly exhausted from his work earlier on. If Spoon had of forced the issue in the later part of the round, who knows, we could have had a massive upset there and then and a new heavyweight champ, but he ran the risk of blowing himself out completely of course. Larry seemed to start doing more of what he should have been doing in the first place in round 10, which was take a step back and use some lateral movement, force Witherspoon to come to him, rather than just wasting all of his shots on a near impenetrable defense. Larry did enough to take the 10th. In the second half of that round spoon broke out some crazy ass Ali impression popping jabs and bouncing all over the place, which co-commentator Angelo Dundee went crazy for:ibutt

During the championship round's, Tim's earlier body work and Larry's wastefulness paid off and he gained some serious momentum, had him out-landing Larry in both the 11th and 12th and seemingly doing enough to take the the title. In the 12th he did a repeat Ali impression and was bouncing around like it was the first round all over again, pure boss style:yep But the judges obviously went for the Champion in the close fight, and Witherspoon was denied a massive scalp. One of the judges had it 115-114 for Spoon, like me. Another had it a daft 118-111 for Larry, which was way too wide. 115-113 for Larry was the other judges card, which was reasonable. 

Have to say, Tim looked like a top talent here, and watching this it's odd that he didn't go further than he did in his career. maybe things might have turned out differently had he beaten Larry that night, who knows? One things for sure, this is a great fight, one of the most skillful, competitive heavyweight one's you'll see. A high level chess match. And ive got major props for Tim for his performance, it was gangsta:deal


----------



## McGrain

Trevor Berbick UD12 Pinklon Thomas

Potential swing rounds are in *bold*.

THOMAS:*1*,2,3,*5,6,*
BERBICK:4,*7*,8,9,10,11,12

The first is a round to watch for the Pinklon jab. Berbick should never have lost this round, but for me, the series of jabs that Pinklon landed near the end of the round represented not just the best but also the hardest punches that were landed in the round. Berbick landed good blows to the body but lots of them were skiffed or contained. Pinklon was just plunging with the jab; the addition of the right hand in the second makes it's winner less debatable. Ironically, it wasn't until he started to jab that Berbick created the openings he needed for his body punches and win a round, the fourth, demonstrating that he needed first to box Pinklon before he could begin to out-brawl him. I gave the excruciatingly close and wild fifth to Thomas, but it can easily be given to Berbick, really and I agree with Larry Merchant that Thomas was missing Angelo Dundee at around this point.

Many of the following rounds are equally close, as Thomas dominated outside, and Berbick tended to win exchanges when they go inside. That's the balance of the contest and I agree with the judges that Berbick edged it. Strength, strength of character, aggression and a superb brawling instinct won the day, by way of an astonishing second-half rally.

115-113 BERBICK


----------



## TSOL

Watched Oscar De La Hoya vs. Ike Quartey

Had it 7-5 for ODLH. Felt reassured when I saw him outlanding Quartey...And then that awesome 12th rnd :bbb


----------



## McGrain

Larry Holmes SD Tim Witherspoon

Wish this had been 15 rounds, they probably could have settled it with more clarity. There's a moment in the 12th, where Witherspoon is up on his toes, crowd loving it, and Larry just blasts him with a beautiful straight, one of his best punches. Of course, Witherspoon likely wouldn't have done that in 12th if it wasn't the last round, but I think that was a bit of a tide-turning punch against a tired opponent. 

Not that Witherspoon didn't miss his own chase to win the fight, I think that he was unaware of how hurt Holmes was in the 9th, which is as good as the final round of Norton-Holmes for me. Close, good fight, with Witherspoon showing a world class taste for range, even if all that shit about his "out-jabbing" Holmes is just that. Holmes landed more, better jabs.

HOLMES:1,2,4,5,11,12
WITHERSPOON:3,6,7,8,9,10

So I have Holmes rallying for a draw after a disastrous third quarter. Ultra-close rounds (rounds I was uncomfortable scoring) were 2,6 and 8, so if I were to score rounds even, I would have Holmes shading it. I guess that makes me happy with a Holmes win if it had to go one way or the other even if the overall flavour of the fight doesn't neccessarily feel that way.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Lovely stuff.


Kalambay's jab was so good it almost made me want to compare it to Joey Archer's left hand.

But then I rewatched the unforgettable Archer vs Salim and realized I've gone too far.


----------



## Michael

McGrain said:


> Larry Holmes SD Tim Witherspoon
> 
> Wish this had been 15 rounds, they probably could have settled it with more clarity. There's a moment in the 12th, where Witherspoon is up on his toes, crowd loving it, and Larry just blasts him with a beautiful straight, one of his best punches. Of course, Witherspoon likely wouldn't have done that in 12th if it wasn't the last round, but I think that was a bit of a tide-turning punch against a tired opponent.
> 
> Not that Witherspoon didn't miss his own chase to win the fight, I think that he was unaware of how hurt Holmes was in the 9th, which is as good as the final round of Norton-Holmes for me. *Close, good fight, with Witherspoon showing a world class taste for range, even if all that shit about his "out-jabbing" Holmes is just that. Holmes landed more, better jabs*.
> 
> HOLMES:1,2,4,5,11,12
> WITHERSPOON:3,6,7,8,9,10
> 
> So I have Holmes rallying for a draw after a disastrous third quarter. Ultra-close rounds (rounds I was uncomfortable scoring) were 2,6 and 8, so if I were to score rounds even, I would have Holmes shading it. I guess that makes me happy with a Holmes win if it had to go one way or the other even if the overall flavour of the fight doesn't neccessarily feel that way.


Agreed, Witherspoon went on even terms with Larry on occasions and showed a nice jab, but it certainly wasn't his main weapon here. Larry couldn't land hit shit with his jab against Spoon though. He threw it dozens of times each round and couldn't hit him with hardly any of em. That right glove over the side of his face worked a treat for parrying Larry's jab.

It appears where me and you differ the most is how we score the 12th (and one or two other rounds). I remember that big shot from Larry but it didn't excuse the fact that he seemed to get outworked for practically all the rest of the round, IMHO of course. If I was to score it again I feel id have it a bit clearer for Spoon though, and that's not just because the commentators were raving about how good he was. I just preferred his more accurate, precise work. He also seemed the more comfortable fighter in there and the better ring general.

Have no idea what Spoon was doing with his hands down up close to Larry the 9th eating every right Larry threw at him. Obviously exhaustion, but what a chin he showed to.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Finally gave Floyd vs Maidana a second try and I am glad I did because my score changed

This time I had it 115-113 Mayweather but I can now understand the 116-112 score that was rendered that I thought was too wide

Maidana had rounds 1,3,4,5,12

Floyd had rounds 2,6-11

Biggest take aways were that I gave Floyd 2 and 11 this time while giving Maidana 12 so basically I changed my mind on 3 rounds

I think lots of falsehoods and folklore have been made about this fight:

Floyd choosing to go to the ropes to make this entertaining. I don't see it, Floyd goes to the ropes in lots of his fights and I think this fight he was on the ropes a lot in 1-4 mostly due to not yet being able to A) earn Maidanas respect B) Maidana had very good head movement and threw at odd angles and Floyd had a hard time timing him and was backed into the ropes C) Maidana knew how to cut off the ring lots of fighters just follow, Maidana stepped to cut Floyd off when Floyd would try to spin out and reverse Maidana

Round 4 Floyd spent some of the most time in any round on the ropes but I think that was large in part due to the cut

Next order of biz, I don't think Maidana gassed as badly as people say he did. Sure after 4 he slowed down out put wise his hands were still high, his punches still were hard, and he still had head movement. I don't think he was so gassed I think the fight just settled, Floyd adjusted and Maidana could not get off the way he did in the early rounds

If there is a round to say Maidana looked openly tired I'd say it was 9 where his mouth was open and he was dominated but in round 10 Maidana fought a very spirited round 

Next misconception is Maidana landed nothing clean at all....That's an out right lie I noted Maidanas best punches Ranging from Jabs, Over Hand Rights, Left Hooks, Body punches and One pretty good inside Uppercut a punch he used a lot vs Broner but did not use a lot here...Maidana could be very ineffective but he usually landed one clean power blow and 1 or 2 more that glanced or were partially blocked but none the less got in

Perception upon second viewing

First time I had it even giving 5 of the first 6 to Maidana and one round in the second half. I think the 6-6 score is possible 

Round 2 is a round I see most giving Floyd and I gave it to him this time, its a close round with Floyd edging in clean connects, Maidana got some work in and mauled maybe it can be scored to him but its definitely a point of contention

Round 3, was again live I felt it was obvious and clear Maidana swung the early rounds big time and this time I thought Maidana won but that it wasn't obvious. Both men missed a lot and Maidana kind of mauled his way in and got it but it wasn't a clear round

Maidanas best round was the 5th and funny enough it was a round fought largely in the middle of the ring he never really mauled Floyd on the ropes until the last 10 seconds or so. He landed 2 very good over hand rights in the middle of the ring and used a jab high and right to the body to back Floyd to the ropes, very crafty

Round 6-8 are rounds live that I thought Floyd dominated, I think he won those rounds but watching again Maidana boxed very well in the middle and made Floyd miss and got in some of his own.. I don't like to quote stats but the stats in this round and the 10th were extremely close I do feel what Floyd connected on was better

Ultimately I'd love to watch 6,8,10 again and score I think those are rounds that I could potentially flip flop on as well as 2 and maybe 3..I think this fight has a lot of scoring possibilities for either guy

Though Maidana won the early rounds he was very ineffective and I was more impressed in him losing 6-10 but competing very well in the middle of the ring bobbing weaving and jabbing and getting more conservative with his shots and attack not just mauling...the effort in those rounds contains his improvements even in defeat it shows how far he has come and what he is capable of

Rematch?

Im not sure how it goes...On one hand Floyd destroyed Castillo in the rematch, Floyd may snuff out any of what Maidana succeeded with and dominate..Or maybe Maidana improves even further takes this experience on the big stage and finds more ways to land

I wanna study the film further score again to reach a final verdict on the score and predict a rematch


----------



## Vic

KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) said:


> Round 6-8 are rounds live that I thought Floyd dominated,


nevermind, didn´t read the rest of your post the first time.....

But I see that you still scored round 8 for Mayweather, which I don´t agree....


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Vic said:


> nevermind, didn´t read the rest of your post the first time.....
> 
> But I see that you still scored round 8 for Mayweather, which I don´t agree....


Frankly I was closer to scoring 6 to Maidana than 8

How did you score it live and how'd you score it upon a second try


----------



## Vic

KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) said:


> Frankly I was closer to scoring 6 to Maidana than 8
> 
> How did you score it live and how'd you score it upon a second try


Live, I didn´t score it round by round.....
I posted mys scorecard after rewatching it here later.
http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...today-thread&p=1195878&viewfull=1#post1195878


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Vic said:


> Live, I didn´t score it round by round.....
> I posted mys scorecard after rewatching it here later.
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...today-thread&p=1195878&viewfull=1#post1195878


Who do you have in an immediate rematch and how


----------



## Vic

KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) said:


> Who do you have in an immediate rematch and how


I need to think a bit more about this tbh....confused thoughts after the first fight.
Who you got ?


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Vic said:


> I need to think a bit more about this tbh....confused thoughts after the first fight.
> Who you got ?


I really do not like to fall for pre fight and post fight BS but I have a few variables to consider

Floyds right hand- Was it actually hurt and how much did it affect his performance, I wonder about the hand because when he claimed to have hurt it is when he started to turn the fight in his favor and landed quite a few rights. Now Ive seen other comment on the quality or power behind them being lacking but who knows for sure. Floyd had already lost 4 rounds well not on the real judges scores which are head scratchers

Floyds prefight issues- I don't know how Floyd handled Miss Jackson, Tyson fans sure love to use his ex wife as an excuses. People say Floyd handled his legal issues leading into the Cotto fight well. Woman issues especially a fiancé being no more and losing out on kids is a much bigger issue emotionally...Could be a bunch of fight selling bull, maybe it affected his mindset who knows

Maidana and the gloves- Did he lose power? Did the gloves he had make him uncomfortable? Im not sure no one is sure and only Marcos knows the real answer

All of that potentially false hype aside I'm not really sure. In my mind I figure Floyd is the best, he will come in smarter and with knowledge of Maidana and just take what worked from 6 on and apply it sooner and that Floyd is better than Marcos and that difference will show in a rematch ex. Castillo. On the other hand Floyd is older and a little bit slower and coming near the end of his long career. Maidana since first seeing him on HBO years ago vs Ortiz has improved leaps and bounds. And Floyd fans like to say oh Floyd let him do this or Floyd wanted to entertain and I say that is a bull crap and B takes too much away from Maidana. Maidana shocked me with how hard he could be to hit and how well he could keep coming and show absolutely no respect for Floyd

People say the rematch will be like Leonard vs Duran 2 and Floyd wont fight Maidanas fight and will move around the ring and win easy. My question to anyone that watches boxing or like me who has seen every Floyd fight I cant really come up with a fight where he didn't ever go to the ropes and shoulder roll and counter. I mean the fight I can think of where he did the least on the ropes was Mosley who he fought in the pocket and came forward more against. Well ok he did it vs Canelo but Canelo didn't press the attack at all whatsoever

I think Maidana might be able to tweak a few things. He never fought on a fight of that magnitude, he never fought a guy as good as Floyd. I think he may even come out better and more prepared. Leading in I kept saying how curious I was to see Garcia in the corner of a Floyd opponent and he gave us a great product to go against the name brand. I wanna see what Garcia can do in improving Maidana who ahs room to improve. I mean Floyd is an old dog with a lot of tricks with an old trainer who cant show him anymore tricks. Mayweather might fight a little smarter or be sharper this time but Maidana has the ability and room to actually be an improved better fighter

Sometimes its all down to believing you can do it and I think Marcos thinks he did it the first time and in his mind knows that he can do it again. This could also lead to an overconfidence and a down fall. I wanna see more uppercuts and a straighter right hand in the rematch and see what happens. I loved the way he jabbed his way. He fought very poised though reckless at times. I am curious

All in all I think Floyd by a legitimate 116-112 no robbery claims


----------



## tommygun711

I always felt that Witherspoon should've got the decision over Holmes. I watched it the other day with my dad. Despite him being a big Holmes fan he always felt he was given a gift that night. Same thing with the Carl Williams fight. Both neutralized Larry's jab, especially Witherspoon. 

Witherspoon in his prime, would be a match for any given heavyweight, prime for prime. I honestly think he could hang with any heavyweight. Very solid defense, good jab, combination punching, very good power, nice right hand. Him vs Lennox Lewis would be a really good fight. 

Felt the need to rewatch Mosley-De La Hoya I today. Great fight, but Mosley largely controls the action. I always thought it was a very impressive performance. The way Mosley would sling overhand rights behind De La Hoya's guard was a thing of beauty. This is easily Mosley's best performance, he really showed his class that night. It's a testament to De La Hoya's toughness that he managed to last all 12 rounds. Mosley hit him with some picture perfect punches that would've knocked out others. A great fight and performance by Mosley.


----------



## Vic

KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) said:


> I really do not like to fall for pre fight and post fight BS but I have a few variables to consider
> 
> Floyds right hand- Was it actually hurt and how much did it affect his performance, I wonder about the hand because when he claimed to have hurt it is when he started to turn the fight in his favor and landed quite a few rights. Now Ive seen other comment on the quality or power behind them being lacking but who knows for sure. Floyd had already lost 4 rounds well not on the real judges scores which are head scratchers
> 
> Floyds prefight issues- I don't know how Floyd handled Miss Jackson, Tyson fans sure love to use his ex wife as an excuses. People say Floyd handled his legal issues leading into the Cotto fight well. Woman issues especially a fiancé being no more and losing out on kids is a much bigger issue emotionally...Could be a bunch of fight selling bull, maybe it affected his mindset who knows
> 
> Maidana and the gloves- Did he lose power? Did the gloves he had make him uncomfortable? Im not sure no one is sure and only Marcos knows the real answer
> 
> All of that potentially false hype aside I'm not really sure. In my mind I figure Floyd is the best, he will come in smarter and with knowledge of Maidana and just take what worked from 6 on and apply it sooner and that Floyd is better than Marcos and that difference will show in a rematch ex. Castillo. On the other hand Floyd is older and a little bit slower and coming near the end of his long career. Maidana since first seeing him on HBO years ago vs Ortiz has improved leaps and bounds. And Floyd fans like to say oh Floyd let him do this or Floyd wanted to entertain and I say that is a bull crap and B takes too much away from Maidana. Maidana shocked me with how hard he could be to hit and how well he could keep coming and show absolutely no respect for Floyd
> 
> People say the rematch will be like Leonard vs Duran 2 and Floyd wont fight Maidanas fight and will move around the ring and win easy. My question to anyone that watches boxing or like me who has seen every Floyd fight I cant really come up with a fight where he didn't ever go to the ropes and shoulder roll and counter. I mean the fight I can think of where he did the least on the ropes was Mosley who he fought in the pocket and came forward more against. Well ok he did it vs Canelo but Canelo didn't press the attack at all whatsoever
> 
> I think Maidana might be able to tweak a few things. He never fought on a fight of that magnitude, he never fought a guy as good as Floyd. I think he may even come out better and more prepared. Leading in I kept saying how curious I was to see Garcia in the corner of a Floyd opponent and he gave us a great product to go against the name brand. I wanna see what Garcia can do in improving Maidana who ahs room to improve. I mean Floyd is an old dog with a lot of tricks with an old trainer who cant show him anymore tricks. Mayweather might fight a little smarter or be sharper this time but Maidana has the ability and room to actually be an improved better fighter
> 
> Sometimes its all down to believing you can do it and I think Marcos thinks he did it the first time and in his mind knows that he can do it again. This could also lead to an overconfidence and a down fall. I wanna see more uppercuts and a straighter right hand in the rematch and see what happens. I loved the way he jabbed his way. He fought very poised though reckless at times. I am curious
> 
> All in all I think Floyd by a legitimate 116-112 no robbery claims


Nice post, man. 
n o robbery claims, I agree...I do watn to see a rematch btw, I don´t think it will look like the first for whatever reason it won´t, it can go easier for FM or... it can go really bad this time IMO.


----------



## Ivan Drago

Being going through Lewis's fights recently, watched he first Holyfield fight today.

Lewis-Holyfield

Round 1 - 10-9
Round 2 - 10-9
Round 3 - 10-9
Round 4 - 10-9
Round 5 - 10-9
Round 6 - 10-9
Round 7 - 10-9
Round 8 - 10-9
Round 9 - 10-9
Round 10 - 9-10
Round 11 - 10-9
Round 12 - 10-9

119-109 Lewis

Lewis boxed absolutely brilliantly, the decision was a travesty.


----------



## Lester1583

What the hell happened to Lonnie Bennett between the Conteh and the Burnett fights?

Bennett looked like a good, capable fighter against Conteh - outboxing and outjabbing (an excellent jab) him in the early rounds.
Although looking really uncomfortable under Conteh's pressure and struggling with Conteh's patented rough house tactics.

And against Burnett (horrible stamina, by the way) he looked like a fading aging veteran - weak punch resistance, no legs, almost a shot fighter.

Did Conteh's headbutts destroy Bennett's will to live?

@Bill Jincock


----------



## Vic

Rewatched some Masao Ohba last night, one of the best jabs in the flyweights division.


----------



## Vic

@Lester1583, what do you think of Carlos Murillo, panamanian light flyweight from the 90s ? I will watch some of his fights this night.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> @Lester1583, what do you think of Carlos Murillo, panamanian light flyweight from the 90s ? I will watch some of his fights this night.


Murillo was nothing special in the grand scheme of things - just your average workman-like splinter short reigning champion in a weak junior division.

But tough, perseverant, decently schooled with good body attack and his fights are not boring to watch.
I think he looked at his best at strawweight - gave Porpaoin plenty of trouble with his contant pressure.

All in all, Murillo is the kind of fighter that would have fit just right in with the rest of Ricardo Lopez's ATG opponents.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Lester1583 said:


> What the hell happened to Lonnie Bennett between the Conteh and the Burnett fights?
> 
> Bennett looked like a good, capable fighter against Conteh - outboxing and outjabbing (an excellent jab) him in the early rounds.
> Although looking really uncomfortable under Conteh's pressure and struggling with Conteh's patented rough house tactics.
> 
> And against Burnett (horrible stamina, by the way) he looked like a fading aging veteran - weak punch resistance, no legs, almost a shot fighter.
> 
> Did Conteh's headbutts destroy Bennett's will to live?
> 
> @Bill Jincock


He looked like a monster against Billy Douglas and Rolle(i think it was) just after Conteh.

Then like absolute shit against Lopez and Burnett(lets not even mention the Rossman fight), as you say like a shot fighter with no legs, judgement of distance or snap anymore.

I'm no expert on what he was like outside of the ring, or on the political side of his career.Hes not someone i've ever really looked into, but i always figured he had fucked himself up by staying at 175 too long...he was a big guy at the weight...and sure enough, on an interview i read a few years ago online(can't remember the site, but you should probably still be able to find it) he talks about how he had real struggles to make weight and would have moved up to cruiser(had the division existed at the time) after fighting Conteh.

He's an interesting fighter isn't he? For that short mid-70s period he had some scary basic tools and looked as close to a Bob Foster clone as i've ever watched at the weight..like a more vulnerable, "more typically textbook" version with the right hand as his best punch.... and is certainly someone you would think should have been in the mix as a contender for the rest of the 70s, even with a dentable chin.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> For that short mid-70s period he had some scary basic tools and looked as close to a Bob Foster clone as i've ever watched at the weight


The one fighter I absolutely cannot see Bennett/Foster/anyone beating is Bobby "No Retreat No Surrender" Czyz.

Impossible to intimidate, impervious to pain.



Bill Jincock said:


> short mid-70s period


Galindez & Conteh aside, some guys from that era actually look no worse (if not better) than someone more well-known like Tarver, Dariusz or Hill - Mwale, Kates, Burnett, Finnegan, Fourie, Ahumada.


----------



## Bill Jincock

I never rated Tarver much.Overall he was an average "right,place, right time" sort of fighter.He had awkwardness and very good power, but was slow as treacle and an average technician, with a very inconsistent mentality and work ethic in the ring.

Fit right into that mediocre light heavy era with guys like Glen Johnson(great underdog to root for that he was), Clinton Woods. Harding, old washed up Reggie Johnson(who tarver looked like shit against), Montell Griffin, Richard Hall, Lou Del Valle, Kalulio Cesar Gonzalez etc.. albeit tbf he was one of the better ones.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> Rewatched some Masao Ohba last night, one of the best jabs in the flyweights division.


How badly would Canto have been schooled by Ohba?

5-10?

3-12?

0-15?


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Overall he was an average "right,place, right time" sort of fighter.


Had Tarver been actually really good he would have beaten/stopped Jones the first time they fought.

Plenty of fighters would have performed better that night than Tarver's reluctant ass.



Bill Jincock said:


> Fit right into that mediocre light heavy era with guys like Glen Johnson(great underdog to root for that he was)


The master technician Merqui Sosa tamed Johnson with ease.

The G.Johnson-Tarver rivalry was embarrassingly mediocre - almost made me miss Dariusz's manly tears.



Bill Jincock said:


> albeit tbf he was one of the better ones.


I thought Julian Letterlough was going to be the future of light heavyweights.

He was on his way to becoming the new Archie Moore.

But that infamous Daniel Judah draw derailed Mr. KO's career.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> How badly would Canto have been schooled by Ohba?
> 
> 5-10?
> 
> 3-12?
> 
> 0-15?


0-15. I mean, remember what Chan Hee Park did ?

Nah, just kidding, Canto was in the last stage of his career and Park´s perfomance is awesome anyway.... it was more Park´s merit than anything.


----------



## Vic

*Jose Stable vs Vince Shomo
*
Anyone else watched this ? I knew Shomo was a amateur sensation in his day so got curious to see him in action, ordered the fight from Craig a while ago.

Anyway, terrible, terrible stoppage, one of the worse ever....
but Stable was the better guy, especially after round 4 when both were very tired already. Shomo starts very agressive, sloppy and wild though, both were wild actually, but you can see from the get go that Stable was more polished, countering a bit, in the first round especially tagging Shomo´s wide open attacks and all...
After round 1 though, Stable is the one going forward...
Anyway, pretty good fight, it was clear that Stable was going to win, he took charge in round 5 and was landing some vicious uppercuts, but that referee ruined the fight... I mean, it was a ridiciouls stoppage..maybe it was the eye though, the image doesn´t make you see exactly but it didn´t look too bad at all tbh..... Shomo was mad at the ref!


----------



## tommygun711

Thought I'd check out Starling vs Baret. Starling's showing some good movement, not completely aggressive here. Starling did pressure when he had to. A sweet jab from Starling in this fight. Starling doing a lot of clowning and showboating, banging his gloves together, dropping his hands. In the third round Starling lets his hands go and starts peppering Baret with all kinds of hooks and uppercuts. He starts to walk him down with that high guard of his and land bombs. Starling ripping the body real good. Starling is amazing inside with his awkward punches. A unique fighter in that he could move as well as bang on the inside. Starling reminds me a bit of Ken Norton the way he would rip the hooks and the uppercuts.


----------



## Michael

Going to watch Jimmy Ellis Vs Floyd Patterson now. Post my scorecard later. Floyd Patterson later career is underrated as fuck, some really good wins on it.


----------



## doug.ie

Michael said:


> Going to watch Jimmy Ellis Vs Floyd Patterson now. Post my scorecard later. Floyd Patterson later career is underrated as fuck, some really good wins on it.


think part of last round is missing


----------



## doug.ie

one of the greatest fights of all time....a war.

Bobby Chacon vs Rafael Limon IV


----------



## tommygun711

In honor of Matthew Saad Muhammad's death I thought I'd check out his first fight against John Conteh.


Like I've been saying all along, Saad Muhammad's offensive arsenal does not get enough credit. He's underrated skill-wise. he was a complete savage. Saad Muhammad had a very very sharp jab. Quick, snappy, and accurate. 

Conteh's defense in this fight is on point. Saad throws some beautiful combos, including double left hooks, but Conteh's defense is negating a lot of that. Considering how good Conteh's jab is, it's surprising Saad is able to jab with him and hold his own. Conteh has some success with his left hooks in the 3rd round. Offensively he's a bit timid but this is by far his best work so far. In general Saad is very accurate with his combos, and Conteh's defense is on point. Conteh able to avoid a lot of Saad's stuff with subtle movements. 

by the forth round Saad is starting to measure and find the target with his deadly right cross. He lands it a couple times even if Conteh is trying to be elusive. Conteh is not trying to open up that much in fear of what may come back at him. Instead he settles for some jabs and the occasional left hook. 

Conteh starts to mix his own sneaky right hand into things as the fight progresses. Definitely lets his hands go more, and lets himself stray out of his usual defensive position. A bit of a chessmatch this, they are both grappling for positions and of course the battle of the jabs. Saad's goal is to land his right hand. Conteh is content to be in the defensive posture and land his counter punches/jabs, it seems. Conteh isn't comfortable fighting very aggressively. 

This fight is very tactical. Not as much violence compared to most Saad fights - he shows off a lot of boxing skill here. His right hand starts to find the mark more and more as the fight goes on. Conteh proves a good chin taking that punch flush multiple times.

Saad made sure there was no question in anyone's eyes that he won the fight in dropping Conteh with a left hook but had to settle for the decision. Conteh was lucky that there was only 30 seconds left in the 14th round. He was nearly finished. Conteh did well to survive this fight. 

An impressive performance by Saad. Underrated, even. Conteh was a very very good technician, and he still got outhustled and outpointed by Saad. he had a very good piston-like left jab yet Saad was able to jab with him. Saad outpointed him in a nice entertaining fight.


----------



## Bill Jincock

One of the great light heavy chessmatches.I completely agree Saad's boxing skills are often underrated.He was terribly susceptible to abandoning them against aggressive fighters that would try and draw him into a brawl, and never had strong defensive reflexes, but his offensive boxing skills were top-notch.

Conteh was a faded, one-handed fighter that had been fighting like a fraud:yep for the past few years here though.This was a last hurrah for him.He didn't really deserve to be there, and only was because hed'd been given a shameful gift against the perpetually shafted and underrated Jesse Burnett.


----------



## tommygun711

Bill Jincock said:


> One of the great light heavy chessmatches.I completely agree Saad's boxing skills are often underrated.He was terribly susceptible to abandoning them against aggressive fighters that would try and draw him into a brawl, and never had strong defensive reflexes, but his offensive boxing skills were top-notch.
> 
> Conteh was a faded, one-handed fighter that had been fighting like a fraud:yep for the past few years here though.This was a last hurrah for him.He didn't really deserve to be there, and only was because hed'd been given a shameful gift against the perpetually shafted and underrated Jesse Burnett.


Yes that's true about allowing himself to be dragged into brawls. That was the philly in him. My point was that skill wise he is underrated. True defensively he was never anything special. Offensively he was a savage though. For Saad to outbox Conteh at his own game - and outjab him - is a feat itself.

Was Conteh really that faded? I've seen this get repeated alot, i dont know if i buy it. He looked good against Saad. Defensively he was very tight and his jab was good.


----------



## Bill Jincock

He trained hard for the Saad fight and regained a good amount of boxing sharpness, but yeah he wasn't the same fighter as he was circa 72-75.His prime was very short(arguably didn't really have a proper peak as a fighter) because of his lifestyle and various out of the ring issues and hand injuries that hampered him.

Earlier he was much more of a two handed hard hitting boxer-puncher, more Napoles like and could be suddenly aggressive and craftily dirty(though he mostly liked to control things from outside if he could) in a kind of Hopkins manner, he's probably the most efficient user of sneaky headbutts up close i've seen.main difference by the time of the saad fight was a clear decline in punch resistance, physical ability and aggression + his right hand was ruined.It's given him a reputation as more of a Virgil Hill alike safety-first one handed jabber by people that maybe only saw him fight a few times.

The first fight against Saad was by far the best of his late 70s efforts, but he looked out of sorts since basically being stripped of his title in 77(he'd badly injured his hand a few years back and already had issues but that's when it really took hold in the ring).Not many were expecting a good performance against saad, after stuff like the Burnett and Ivy Brown fights.

In the second fight he's got nothing left and just gets bounced all over the place from pretty inconsequential shots.

btw Saad's corner cheated and used illegal monsel's solution to close his cuts in that first fight, he probably would have lost on cuts or had a much tougher fight without it, but tbh it's hard to feel sorry Conteh considering he opened up cuts on so many fighters with his headbutts and roughhousing(i don't remember if the saad cuts were caused by that too, or just the jab).


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> he's probably the most efficient user of sneaky headbutts up close i've seen.





> Q: The Hutchins camp, the Bennett camp and a few others had been complaining about the careless use of your head. How would you address this?
> 
> John Conteh: I was trained a certain way during infighting that if there was a clash of heads that I would not come out second best. There was never anything intentional. However, (laughing) I don't think I'd come out too well if your Supreme Court made a case about 'The use of John Conteh's head'.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Jorge castro vs john david jackson

Holy shit what a ending!1st time seeing this with a nonboxing fan who now is a fan.


----------



## Lester1583

> Adolph Pruitt: Henry Armstrong managed me and trained me the first half of my career.
> 
> He was alright. He had a fairly big stable but I was the only one that was ever world-rated. As a trainer, I'll tell you a funny story. He trained fighters the same way he fought. Y'know, arms pumping three minutes a round. Well, (laughs) finally I had to tell him, "Henry, I'm going to box. I'm tired of this perpetual motion shit!"
> 
> Henry always matched me tough. He only lined up top fighters for me. He didn't care who he put me in with. His rule was that he points at the ring and says, 'fight'. You didn't argue, you just had to be ready.





> Rafael Herrera: Just like I beat Ruben Olivares three times.
> 
> Q: Three times?!
> 
> RH: (laughing) Ruben once brought it up to me that I beat him three times. I said, "Ruben, we only fought twice." He said, "Yes, but I once had a dream that we fought and you even beat me in the dream."


----------



## McGrain

JIMMY ELLIS UD12 OSCAR BONAVENA

This is a masterful performance from Ellis, who flashed the right hand over and over again right on point, torturing Bonavena with that tipsy style right on the cusp of range. The right hand was on point all night, most especially in the third when it caught the Argentine on the point of the jaw, all meet, and forced him to his haunches then the canvas. 

Bonavena really didn't get to him until the sixth when a dual left-hook left him hurt, but it was Ellis who landed almost every single other meaningful punch in the round, making Oscar miss over and over again - in the seventh he got to him in a meaningful way once more though this time Bonavena held his feet.

Cut in the eighth, a minor crisis seemed to loom for Ellis, who let that round slip through his fingers and was probably out-mauled in the ninth, as per Bonavena's pre-fight plan. Looking tired, Ellis nevertheless stiffened Bonavena with a hook in the ninth. You don't want to get too carried away, but for me twice dropping Bonavena, once with either hand, dismisses notions that Ellis is a non-puncher, even if you can't quite confirm him a puncher.



ELLIS: 1,2,3,5,6,7,10,
BONAVENA: 4,8,9,11,12

7-5 Ellis, but the five-points must system the fight was fought under made him a clear winner.


----------



## Vic

tommygun711 said:


> Yes that's true about allowing himself to be dragged into brawls. That was the philly in him. My point was that skill wise he is underrated. True defensively he was never anything special. Offensively he was a savage though. For Saad to outbox Conteh at his own game - and outjab him - is a feat itself.
> 
> Was Conteh really that faded? I've seen this get repeated alot, i dont know if i buy it. He looked good against Saad. Defensively he was very tight and his jab was good.


Great jab indeed, maybe a top 5 jab (or even top 3) among the lightheavies ? It was mentioned a few times in the thread I made last week about Saad......
I would say that Saad was often dragged to wars because of his lack of mobility too. I don´t know if I´m right or not, it´s just something I noticed, I don´t feel like he wanted to brawl so often, but just happened like that because of that "flaw" in him, and he didn´t move his head too well also, in this fight Conteh was landing some pretty good shots as well IIRC (even though I remember most rounds being very clear for Saad and that was a _pretty solid performance_ all around).


----------



## McGrain

JIMMY ELLIS WPTS FLOYD PATTERSON

1: Ellis apparently had his nose broken in this round, perhaps explaining his poor performance. Very, very little to distinguish them here though, there's a huge amount of missing. Floyd's slippage means that he's not really faster than Ellis; Ellis is just as quick-handed and looks to have a similar reaction time, too. I gave this one to Ellis because I really admired the left-hand feint/right-hand lead he used, i just like that better than Patterson's "bob in". You could very arguably score this one even if you were given.

2: Lots of missing, again. It basically comes down to weighing the best punches each man lands in the round, because there's just nothing else to distinguish them - you literally have to weight the best single shots of the round. I liked Patterson's short, sharp right hand and stuck-on left-hook better than Ellis's cuffing rights and the two decent left uppercuts he lands in the opening seconds. So Patterson.

3: Strange round, but a very good one for Ellis. Patterson really isn't doing anything, he throws literally one jab. Ellis is throwing more but consistently falling short with his one-two, landing cuffing punches on the glove, or scraping the top of Patterson's dipping head, probably taking the round on activity when the clinch and Ellis throws a square right across his man proper hypotenuses punch, think Thompson KO Price the first time, and Patterson is hurt. Ellis starts doing some really, really good work on the inside, not really his game, but it's working. But all the time he's got Angelo Dundee shouting "push him off! push him off!" he wants Ellis outside jabbing. But he's missing all his jabs. Ellis does better inside. Curious.

4: In keeping with the idiom of the fight, this is a great fight for Patterson. Ellis just goes back to missing from the outside but Patterson seems to have found his range for jabs and power punches. I love the way Patterson hooks off the jab. The jab is almost a hook and the hook is almost a jab. How awful, and at that speed. Ellis was hurt in this round and is cut above the eye. Let's see if Floyd can build some momentum.

5: Close round. I'm giving this round to Patterson on the counter uppercut he threw from the ropes at thirsty seconds remaining. Other than that, more of what we had in 1 and 2, Ellis missing, not confident, Patterson looking for the single shots. Again, Ellis's best work is inside, like the sneak left hand he lands in a neutral corner when they come together. He's bigger, Patterson is old. He should rough him up and bare down in there, not wait to be stung before he punches.

6: Patterson slips for the third time in the opening seconds. I wonder if he had better boxing boots on if he would have won? He wins this round, which is an awful round for 2:40, Ellis missing, Patterson not bothering to punch, and then Patterson comes up with the old-time trademark snaking left hook in the final seconds, a beautiful punch which fully extended cuts through the bottom jaw. Ellis saw it coming and tried to lean out, but he got caught right on the end of the punch. He was hurt but probably saved himself from a knockdown/out. Patterson does some decent work in the follow up, but it's one punch that wins him the round for some daylight.

7: The referee didn't score an even round, but I can't separate them here. Ellis is just waiting, waiting, and Patterson is bob-bob-bobbing away. I thought Ellis had stolen it with a blistering one-two at about thirty seconds, but Patterson landed a handful of less excellent punches as the round wound down. I tried to give the round to Ellis, but it didn't feel write, so I scored it for Patterson, didn't feel right, so it's an even round.

8: Very boring first half of the round. Few punches but lots of missing. Patterson lands a great jab, Ellis half-lands some weak stuff but gets in a good counter-uppercut to the body, not a lot on it but it's a decent punch. Ellis scores a decent jab on ninety seconds and another right behind it. They swap misses with the lead rights, which they shouldn't be throwing. Why aren't they jabbing more? Patterson landed a skiffing right at about 15 seconds to take an Ellis round and arguably even it up. In the end, neither one of them deserves it.

9: Ellis wins the round by dominating the inside. Probably, he'll go back to missing from the outside in the next round.

10: He did, and Patterson won a crap round with two or three right hands because of it.

11: Ellis dominates the first 100 seconds of this round, he looks the best he's looked in the fight by virtue of the fact that he's finally dialled in the right hand a bit. Patterson has been slipping it by ducking or bobbing and Ellis is going more overhand and getting somewhere with that. The problem is, Patterson comes on very very strong at the end of the round, landing good punches to the body in combination with cuffing ones to the head. I'm going to go with Ellis based upon the prior domination. This is a legitimate swing round though. Could be scored either way.

12: Clear Ellis round. He's looking dominant now and far, far busier than Floyd, who looks legitimately tired. He's throwing more, landing more, and moving Patterson about the ring. Patterson is open-mouthed. Thirteenth is big.

13: Patterson dug it out God love his heart. Ellis tried to prod his way to the frame, but Patterson just dug in and hit with him, doing the flashier, faster, harder punching, including a really cool old-school flurry to Ellis's midriff. Ellis was just static enough that some of the punches scored. IF Patterson was legitimately robbed, this is the round he was robbed in. Ellis now cannot win on my card.

14: Patterson wins this one, inarguably. He's something, Floyd Patterson.

15: Satellite cuts out, so that's that. I'll call it even.

ELLIS:1,3,9,11,12,
PATTERSON:2,4,5,6,10,13,14,
EVEN:7,8,15

So I have it 7-5-3 Patterson. If Ellis wins the fifteenth he still doesn't win, and he received the only two rounds I scored but wasn't sure of, the first and the eleventh, so this is the best card I can produce for him.

Robbery? 

Something very like it I think.


----------



## LittleRed

Olivares and Patterson reinforcing their greatness.


----------



## Lester1583

Maybe it's just me but Watanabe didn't look that faded physically against Roman - yeah, he wasn't as sharp as he was before and his stamina wasn't the same as it used to be.

But a far cry from a Jones-like walking corpse or Leonard of the Camacho fight - still a capable aging fighter.

But it did look like mentally he wasn't ready to give 100% - the hungry Roman outwilled Watanabe easily.

An old Watanabe with Orzubek's never quit mentality probably still would have lost to Roman but in a competitive, much closer fight.

Pretty good inside work by Roman, by the way.


----------



## Vic

Ambers was landing those uppercuts at will against Armstrong. Ambers fought very well (talking generally about both fights, on the footage that we have) even though it looks like Armstrong was beating the shit out of him in the final part of the rematch... 

I don´t like Ambers´ performance all that much tbh, I mean leading with right uppercuts, not trying to move too much when there were moments where he could (and he did it casually in the rematch you can see it, it´s rare, but he does it) but he had no jab at all. I mean maybe he thought that he would beat Armstrong like that because of his own inside game, those uppercuts like I said, landing everytime he threw them. But he could at least set up his punches there at times... some jabs would help him a lot.

Anyway, he really took some brutal punishement, especially to the body (apart from the low blows) over there (the rematch I mean). And Armstrong was vicious in the final parts of the second fight, looked good.


----------



## tommygun711

Thought I'd check out Danny Garcia vs Mauricio Herrera again. I felt Herrera won it but never actually scored it/watched it since the night of the fight. Herrera is very tough guy to fight, for anyone really. This fight kind of made me rate Mayfield a little higher than I did, but then Mayfield looked horrible against Durolme. 

Herrera's left jab is his biggest weapon in this fight. If someone is to argue that Herrera won the fight it's based off of his jab. He varies the jab, doubles it up and also digs it to the body of Garcia. Herrera made Garcia miss with subtle head movement, and good footwork. Herrera is always on the move and it kind of disrupts Danny's rhythm at times. Herrera is not dominating the fight, but he is making Garcia look bad and he is scoring with his own shots. 

Garcia isn't really able to land many clean power punches because of Herrera's sneaky defense. When he isn't slipping Garcia's shots he is blocking them or rolling with them. In rounds where there isn't much action because of Herrera's refusal to engage, he's able to win rounds (IMO) based off that good left jab. He scores a lot of points with that jab. 

Herrera easily lands the cleaner punches. In round 5 he lands a very nice counter right hand right on the button, over Garcia's left jab. Some of these rounds are very very close because Herrera limits Danny's output with his style. Even when Danny lets his hands go and tries to throw combinations Herrera makes sure that most of them don't land.

Something Danny should've considered doing a bit more is work Herrera's body. The head moves, but the body stays in one spot. Danny could've worked the body more to create some openings for some work upstairs. The problem is that Danny is a little predictable & basic in his offense. Herrera isn't allowing much of anything to land.

Herrera is constantly breaking Garcia's rhythm. Jumping inside when Garcia is trying to counter, popping Danny with the jab, outworking Garcia. In round 9 Herrera lands a picture perfect 1-2-1 backing Danny against the ropes and bloodies Garcia's face up. The crowd definitely influenced the judges to a certain degree. Missed punches were getting cheers and most of Danny's combinations were largely missed. The cleanest punches Garcia lands are to the body of Herrera.

Late in the fight they both start to trade a lot more, and Herrera is probably feeling a sense of urgency from the open scoring even though he should be winning the fight. Herrera was very prepared for Danny's left hook as most of the time it is blocked/slipped. Garcia starts to step up his own workrate but he still isn't inflicting a lot of damage to Herrera. 

Garcia's best round by far was round 11. Danny throws a lot of his combinations and pins Herrera on the ropes for probably 30 seconds. It's not that Garcia is landing perfectly cleanly, but he is landing. Herrera maybe showing a sign of fatigue at this point but maybe he was saving his energy for the last round as well.

In the final round they both go for broke, Herrera lands the cleaner punches in the final round and I say he took it.

In the grand scheme of things this has to be considered a failure for team Garcia. They tried to pick an opponent to look impressive against in Puerto Rico and instead looked horrible & arguably lost. I felt Herrera definitely took it. 


Garcia: 1,6,7,10,11,

Herrera: 2,3,4,5,8,9,12

7-5 Herrera. Close fight, but Herrera should've took the W.


----------



## Lester1583

Mesmerizing Gushiken highlight video:






Terry Norris is somewhere smiling right now.

@LittleRed
@Bill Jincock


----------



## LittleRed

Exquisite. P4P the greatest hair/mustache combination of all time.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Lester1583 said:


> Maybe it's just me but Watanabe didn't look that faded physically against Roman - yeah, he wasn't as sharp as he was before and his stamina wasn't the same as it used to be.
> 
> But a far cry from a Jones-like walking corpse or Leonard of the Camacho fight - still a capable aging fighter.
> 
> But it did look like mentally he wasn't ready to give 100% - the hungry Roman outwilled Watanabe easily.
> 
> An old Watanabe with Orzubek's never quit mentality probably still would have lost to Roman but in a competitive, much closer fight.
> 
> Pretty good inside work by Roman, by the way.


He's definitely not comparable to an old shot to bits Jones or "should have retired 10 years ago" old Leonard.

More just your typical physically slowing, early thirties sub-bantam.Not so obvious now, with it being a weaker time for lighter weights, but mid-90s and before, the fighters at those weights tended to peak earlier than higher weights and often be burned out by 32\33.

That aside i agree it was a mentally poor performance and a half-assed surrendering of the title.Watanabe was a DLH like star in japan and the hunger just didn't seem to be there from circa the Poonterat fights on.The workrate, movement and combinations all dropped off a few notches.If he had kept fighting weak opponent's-like the two before Roman, a Korean i remember him looking pretty poor against and a hilariously outmatched inept Kazuo Katsuma in a "domestic showdown" where he looked better-, and mixed in with the occasional halfway deserving challenger like a Celso Chavez or Rafa Pedroza, then he would probably have hung onto the belt for another 2-3 years.

It's a shame really as a fight between him and Roman with both at their peak would have been a classic of the era, maybe producing a series like Roman did with Laciar(who deserves to be mentioned among the top super-fly's h2h despite lacking a title run there)


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> mentally poor performance half-assed DLH like


Let us not forget that Watanabe lived in constant fear of Kalulesai.

Stress ages and hence Watanabe's quick but predictable decline.



Bill Jincock said:


> Laciar(who deserves to be mentioned among the top super-fly's h2h despite lacking a title run there)


What do you think of Sugar Baby Rojas and Laciar's wide loss to him?

Sugar Baby looked ok against Roman in the second fight.

For about 2 or 3 rounds.

And then Roman shut him out completely.


----------



## Lester1583

> Question: Are you married?
> 
> Gustavo Ballas: What are you kidding? I'm intelligent. I'm single.
> 
> Question: What's your best punch?
> 
> Gustavo Ballas: I can't punch. Just watch me box.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


>


Locche vs Armstrong?

Ultimate defense vs ultimate offense?

A mouth-watering-impossible to imagine-would watch endlessly battle?

Already happened.

Gustavo Ballas vs Rafael Pedroza is all you need.

Non-stop action.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Locche vs Armstrong?
> 
> Ultimate defense vs ultimate offense?
> 
> A mouth-watering-impossible to imagine-would watch endlessly battle?
> 
> Already happened.
> 
> Gustavo Ballas vs Rafael Pedroza is all you need.
> 
> Non-stop action.


I swear to god that I thought that boxing glove was hair, like a giant Grey topknot.

Armstrong.


----------



## McGrain

Floyd Patteson D10 Jerry Quarry

Quarry pretty clearly out-hooked Patterson in the first with a direct style and some narrow punching out of a high guard that probably lay the groundwork for what might be the best round of Quarry's career, the second. Jerry was patient but aggressive, snaking out the left to the body and eventually the head, depositing a disorganised Patterson rather neatly - the second knockdown was technicians dream the right hand straight bought by the left-hand's persistence. It's hard to be sure if Quarry let Patterson off the hook in the following moments or if he is to be praised for his maturity, but either way, Patterson got out of the round, and with no 10 points must, he could survive on paper too. He's a god-damn survivor-type. The best action of round 3 was Quarry's, he slipped out of the corner beautifully behind a short left hook but the round itself belonged to Floyd. Snaking, aggressive. 

Patterson opens a cut outside the right eye of Quarry in the fourth with that leaping left hook. 

In the fifth Quarry is cut to the mouth, out-fought and out-sped by the veteran ex-champ. Some very hard body-punching arguably won a close sixth for Quarry, but it is also reasonable to score the round evenly. In a way, Patterson has tricked Quarry into following him around the ring in the old fashioned way, head to head and chest to chest where his greater experience and speed were off even greater benefit than they would be on the outside against a technically schooled fighter like Jerry. It enables Patterson to get off all kinds of punches and sense all kinds of openings that Quarry isn't yet au-fait with. 

Nevertheless I felt that Quarry was exuberanting his way back into the fight in the seventh when Patterson dropped him like a steer at the very end of the round - this may have re-augmented the fight in Patterson's favour; I only scored one more round for Quarry, the ninth.

Another robbery? Stroning it a bit, but I reckon Patterson was the better man without too much room for doubt.

PATTERSON:3,4,5,7,8,10.
QUARRY:1,2,6,9.

6-4 PATTERSON.


----------



## McGrain

JERRY QUARRY MD12 FLOYD PATTERSON

Patterson clearly outpunched Quarry in the first for me, but he got badly hurt in the second by an absolutley beautiful combination from Quarry. It may not have been the best round in the fight though, after Patterson, having tried to feint Quarry with his head, then tried to feint him with his head again, just up and smashed him in the f*cking face with a lead-right, kind of disgusted 

Dropped again in the fourth, Patterson has some work to do to box back, especially as Quarry looks better than he did last time - Patterson is forced to take more chances, lunge more, trust his speed more. Quarry looks relaxed about it but also tires quickly, and seems strangely lethargic in the middle rounds, letting Patterson back in. 

Patterson, if he lets it slip, lets it slip in the eleventh, where he drops the narrowest of rounds to a tired fighter that probably could have been outworked by a committed attack.


QUARRY:2,3,4,6,9,11.
PATTERSON:1,5,7,8,10,12.

6-6 A DRAW

So allowing for the scoring system of the day, I think Quarry is a reasonable winner on the strength of the knockdowns.


----------



## Michael

McGrain said:


> Floyd Patteson D10 Jerry Quarry
> 
> Quarry pretty clearly out-hooked Patterson in the first with a direct style and some narrow punching out of a high guard that probably lay the groundwork for what might be the best round of Quarry's career, the second. Jerry was patient but aggressive, snaking out the left to the body and eventually the head, depositing a disorganised Patterson rather neatly - the second knockdown was technicians dream the right hand straight bought by the left-hand's persistence. It's hard to be sure if Quarry let Patterson off the hook in the following moments or if he is to be praised for his maturity, but either way, Patterson got out of the round, and with no 10 points must, he could survive on paper too. He's a god-damn survivor-type. The best action of round 3 was Quarry's, he slipped out of the corner beautifully behind a short left hook but the round itself belonged to Floyd. Snaking, aggressive.
> 
> Patterson opens a cut outside the right eye of Quarry in the fourth with that leaping left hook.
> 
> In the fifth Quarry is cut to the mouth, out-fought and out-sped by the veteran ex-champ. Some very hard body-punching arguably won a close sixth for Quarry, but it is also reasonable to score the round evenly. In a way, Patterson has tricked Quarry into following him around the ring in the old fashioned way, head to head and chest to chest where his greater experience and speed were off even greater benefit than they would be on the outside against a technically schooled fighter like Jerry. It enables Patterson to get off all kinds of punches and sense all kinds of openings that Quarry isn't yet au-fait with.
> 
> Nevertheless I felt that Quarry was exuberanting his way back into the fight in the seventh when Patterson dropped him like a steer at the very end of the round - this may have re-augmented the fight in Patterson's favour; I only scored one more round for Quarry, the ninth.
> 
> Another robbery? Stroning it a bit, but I reckon Patterson was the better man without too much room for doubt.
> 
> PATTERSON:3,4,5,7,8,10.
> QUARRY:1,2,6,9.
> 
> 6-4 PATTERSON.


Patterson's later career is seriously underrated by a lot of people. He had some very good wins and gained back a lot of esteem that might have lost for both Liston losses imo. It certainly adds to his legacy.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Lester1583 said:


> Let us not forget that Watanabe lived in constant fear of Kalulesai.
> 
> Stress ages and hence Watanabe's quick but predictable decline.
> 
> What do you think of Sugar Baby Rojas and Laciar's wide loss to him?
> 
> Sugar Baby looked ok against Roman in the second fight.
> 
> For about 2 or 3 rounds.
> 
> And then Roman shut him out completely.


Rojas was decent, solid boxer-puncher at his best imo.Very big and strong looking at superfly.

He reminds me of Duke McKenzie quite a bit from that same lower-weight era.Both seemed to want to be tidy textbook fighters, with educated lefts, but often just weren't sharp enough to win with clean tidy boxing and would end up in uglier fights, but where McKenzie seemed quite physically feeble and always struggling with weight, Rojas was very solid.

From what i remember he just ground out the win against Laciar, who looked like the Roman TKO classic had taken the last of his prime away, but still gave a good effort.He ground over an aging Ballas as well, but Roman was always going to be skilled for him...those are probably among Roman's high points.

I've never seen his WBO title loss, but did come back solidly enough at 122 for a moment with the two gruelling close slopfests with N'Cita and a good fight with McKinney, though he was soundly outboxed in the end despite McKinney having a badly swollen eye for most of it.

I guess i'd compare him to someone like Cotto or Kessler from recent fighters.Not necessarily in fighting really similar, but just being a good enough boxer puncher to be around for a while challenging for titles(and maybe even carve out good runs in the right cuircumstance), but not fighters i could see beating many genuinely very talented or excellent prime fighters around their weight.


----------



## Vic

Watchinf Hearns vs DeWitt. Interesting that Kalambay stopped DeWitt but Hearns didn´t.


----------



## SamO408

I just watched Carlos Palomino vs. Dave Boy Green and Chacon vs Limon IV


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Watanabe mentally poor


Just rewatched Watanabe-Ballas.

Watanabe's combinations were almost kalule-like fluid.

Come to think of it, does Watanabe have a case for being the smoothest super-fly?

But even a prime Watanabe looked like a potentially lazy, unfocused fighter, in my opinion - his footwork against Ballas was excellent, he made Ballas look like an inferior fighter.
And yet at times Jiro unnecessarily just let Ballas close the distance.

Watanabe with Finito's 100% efficiency mindset would have beaten Ballas even more one-sidedly.


----------



## Michael

Vic said:


> Watchinf Hearns vs DeWitt. Interesting that Kalambay stopped DeWitt but Hearns didn´t.


What round did Dewitt clown Hearns with his hands down, daring Tommy to hit him Vic? That's one of the most badass/stupid showboating anyone's ever done, right up there with Ricardo Mayorga letting Tito Trinidad tee off with two of his signature left hooks.


----------



## Vic

Michael said:


> What round did Dewitt clown Hearns with his hands down, daring Tommy to hit him Vic? That's one of the most badass/stupid showboating anyone's ever done, right up there with Ricardo Mayorga letting Tito Trinidad tee off with two of his signature left hooks.


:lol: Don´t remember the round, man. But Hearns landed some great rights and DeWitt stood there well and that was surprising as hell...


----------



## Michael

Vic said:


> :lol: Don´t remember the round, man. But Hearns landed some great rights and DeWitt stood there well and that was surprising as hell...


Must have it mixed up so, or else that moment grew legs and got greatly exaggerated in my head to the point where Hearns hit Doug with 50 flush right hands and Dewitt laughed in his face:lol:


----------



## Vic

Michael said:


> Must have it mixed up so, or else that moment grew legs and got greatly exaggerated in my head to the point where Hearns hit Doug with 50 flush right hands and Dewitt laughed in his face:lol:


I counted 10 consecutive rights landed one time in there.


----------



## Michael

Vic said:


> I counted 10 consecutive rights landed one time in there.


SO that's where Dewitts trademark nose was born?


----------



## Vic

Michael said:


> SO that's where Dewitts trademark nose was born?


Possibly.


----------



## Bill Jincock

DeWitt also really frustrated big punching Don Lee with his durability.

he definitely gained a rep for having a great chin at that time, then after the Hearns fight he got laid out with a single right hand by journeyman\fringe contender Quinones, in a real shock.

He still looked really tough after that though, but took some brutal beatings when past his prime against Benn and Toney.

the kalambay shot that stopped him was a trademark kalambay sneaky uppercut.A beautiful punch, similar kind of stoppage to Napoles vs Lopez II.


Dewitt was an unusual fighter.His handspeed was well above average and he could snap off three or four quality jabs very fast, and throw a lot of quick, varied combinations....yet his defensive spatial awareness and reflexes were poor, but despite that he would fight loose, with his hands at his chest and look to slip punches and counter as if he had a Napoles'esque radar.

Maniac.

Reminds me of Joichiro Tatsuyoshi quite a bit in his style and tendency to be in great, brutal fights.


----------



## jorodz

Watched Donaire's fight from Saturday. Honestly, he looked like shit


----------



## Michael

Watched Bobby Chacon Vs Danny Lopez. Great action in this fight, just a back and forth war, with both men paying no regard for defence. Constant non-stop punches being landed. It wasnt too competitive however, as Chacon was clearly the superior operator with the better offensive skills, put his combinations together, timed Lopez quite well and just couldn't ever miss with the right hand on Little Red's chin. The end came in the 9th, with Lopez nailing Lopez with 4 or 5 consecutive right hands along with a hook which sent Danny down. He got up, was allowed to continued but it could have been stopped right there and then. He was completely out it, falling around the ring and catching eveyr punch thrown before the ref stepped in. Had it 7-1 for Chacon in rounds by the end.

Very g ood performance from Chacon, beating Lopez would later turn out to be a great scalp. Lopez was quite a classy offensive fighter, threw very smooth accurate combo's, had a solid sense of timing, threw with speed and power. He did show a few decent defensive moments at times also, which makes me think that if he had a mind to tighten up on his defence a little bit, he could have gone even further than he did. He was just too aggressive for his own good though, too intent on doing damage to his opponent to care about himself taking damage.

Lopez, ive got to admit, ive never found his aesthetically pleasing to watch at all, in spite of how exciting he was. He was a lanky awkward looking fella in the ring, with odd technique to his shots, though he got plenty of leverage on the jab, right hand and hook from those long arms of his and could catch his opponent from anywhere. He had murderous power, great heart and a solid jab, but he was a really basic fighter. He's got to have the worst defence of any HOF caliber fighter ever, it was non existent and he caught punches with his face. He's just lucky he had that cracking punch of his to level the playing field:good


----------



## McGrain

Tim Witherspoon SD12 Renaldo Snipes

Snipes moves beautifully in the first two rounds, flicking out a jab and shading both frames on defence (he ditches some punches beautifully) and that nipping punch, Witherspoon in steady pursuit. The referee is overinvolved in the third IMO, he's got no business demanding Snipes change his style and actually he may be in part to blame for the first punch Witherspoon lands in earnest. But I think also Snipes was beginning to lag just a bit because he really really was on his bicycle.

Investing in the body in the fourth was a bit of tactical necessity rather than strategy in the fourth but it won Spoon the round for me. By the sixth, Snipes had obviously decided it was time to fight and it was Witherspoon who looked a little tired with his back to the ropes as Snipes found punches. Witherspoon's solution is non-specific, he's just sort of tracking Snipes down and "doing boxing." It makes things difficult for him when Snipes changes up, which is the case in six and seven, re-establishing his lead. Witherspoon did catch up to him in the eighth, but again, it's just by being slightly superior physically, catching up to Snipes and hitting him with a really, really hard right hand and then another one at the bell. Take either one of those punches out, and it's a Snipes round...this would leave Witherspoon needing a KO for the win.

Witherspoon again came close to taking away a brilliant ninth round in which he landed the best punches, but Snipes edged back with the superior workrate in a round I just couldn't split them in. Witherspoon had the heart and balls to go straight for the kill in the tenth which makes him a worthy winner, though I'd have no argument with the draw.

Tell you what though - Snipes out-jabbed him.

Witherspoon looked mature for a fighter of his experience.

WITHERSPOON:3,4,5,8,10
SNIPES:1,2,6,7,
EVEN:9,

5-4-1 WITHERSPOON


----------



## Lester1583

Is Espadas' left hand the closest thing to Olivares' left hand?

Is Park's stoppage of Espadas one of the best performances by an inexperienced fighter against a dangerous seasoned veteran?

Is Chul-Ho Kim's victory over the jab master Willie Jensen the biggest pre-Kalule-Price upset ever?

Is Coetzee vs Knoetze the manliest rivalry of all time?

Is Burruni's devastating KO of the fleet-footed Gattellari the most underrated win of the 60's?


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Is Burruni's devastating KO of the fleet-footed Gattellari the most underrated win of the 60's?


Jofre vs Caraballo is :yep (a win, like that, in Colombia against Caraballo ?)


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Is Espadas' left hand the closest thing to Olivares' left hand?
> 
> Is Park's stoppage of Espadas one of the best performances by an inexperienced fighter against a dangerous seasoned veteran?
> 
> Is Chul-Ho Kim's victory over the jab master Willie Jensen the biggest pre-Kalule-Price upset ever?
> 
> Is Coetzee vs Knoetze the manliest rivalry of all time?
> 
> Is Burruni's devastating KO of the fleet-footed Gattellari the most underrated win of the 60's?


Why not ask something simple like what is a man?


----------



## Lester1583

Cotto!!!:scaredas::ibutt

No controversy, no running, no tests - a shot welter just obliterated a prime ATG middleweight.

Is Cotto greater than Leonard?

The answer is obvious.

Would Hagler have won more than 1 round against Cotto?

Don't make me laugh.

The greatest victory since El Nica's mind-boggling destruction of Kaovichit?

Quite possibly, yes.

@Vic
@LittleRed
@Hands of Iron
@turbotime


----------



## Vic

All things considered. It was a great performance, IMO.


----------



## LittleRed

God was Puerto Rican tonight.


----------



## Vic

LittleRed said:


> God was Puerto Rican tonight.


He is about to be brazilian for a month though.


----------



## LittleRed

Vic said:


> He is about to be brazilian for a month though.


Looks like you misspelled German Vic.


----------



## Vic

LittleRed said:


> Looks like you misspelled German Vic.


No way.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> God was Puerto Rican tonight.





Vic said:


> He is about to be brazilian for a month though.


God is a glory hunter.

He'll side with anyone.

Satan reigns eternally.


----------



## LittleRed

Vic said:


> No way.


Hey sometimes we make mistakes Vic. It's cool. Deutsch land uber alles baby.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> God is a glory hunter.
> 
> He'll side with anyone.


I have noticed the guys he backs are usually winners.


----------



## Vic

LittleRed said:


> I have noticed the guys he backs are usually winners.


Imagine God at CHB. Picking the fighters and trolling the guys that made wrong calls. He would be like... God ?


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> I have noticed the guys he backs are usually winners.


Fanboy mentality.


----------



## turbotime

Yes my brother. Huge. Better than Tito


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Yes my brother. Huge. Better than Tito


Thats a bit much turbo. Hes not better than tito. He woulda sparked out cotto. Lets not get carried away. His victory over undefeated vargas is indeed very good.


----------



## Drew101

turbotime said:


> Yes my brother. Huge. Better than Tito


Not quite as good as Bazooka, but he's got a better victory.


----------



## tommygun711

Drew101 said:


> Not quite as good as Bazooka, but he's got a better victory.


Prime Bazooka would've fucked Cotto's world up. No answer at all for Quartey's jab or right cross.

I actually watched the Park masterclass yesterday. What a fucking jab. That shit was like Sonny Liston


----------



## Drew101

tommygun711 said:


> Prime Bazooka would've fucked Cotto's world up. No answer at all for Quartey's jab or right cross.
> 
> I actually watched the Park masterclass yesterday. What a fucking jab. That shit was like Sonny Liston


Was actually referring to Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez, though. In terms of context, it's a toss up as to whether his win over Zarate tops Cotto's stoppage of Martinez in the better win category.


----------



## tommygun711

Drew101 said:


> Was actually referring to Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez, though. In terms of context, it's a toss up as to whether his win over Zarate tops Cotto's stoppage of Martinez in the better win category.


Zarate is probably better than Cotto's win over Martinez. I think Gomez was more impressive at his best compared to Cotto. A true puncher. Real good timing and combination punching.

In any case, Quartey>Cotto anyway :rofl


----------



## Bill Jincock

Gomez vs Zarate was a true all-time sort of matchup.The sort of prime battle between P4P fighters that make the sport.

Martinez vs Cotto was an old shot inactive middle champ( that everybody knew was fast declining) humiliating himself by getting thrashed by his undeserving, past it Welterweight gimme opponent.

I don't really think they are fights or wins to be compared.

Though all credit to Cotto he's well on the slide himself and i didn't think he had it in him to beat even a Martinez fighting the low level he did against Murray, but there are thousands of fights where a washed up fighter gets beat by someone they wouldn't have earlier at the weight.Albeit this is in your top tier of humiliation for that kind of thing as Martinez was still supposed to be "the man" so to speak.

arguing it's a better win than something like Gomez vs Zarate would be like arguing that Frank Grant actually had a better win than anything Hagler ever achieved when he beat a washed up Herol Graham, as he was never even world class when he did it and it was still a shock upset.

Still, don't get me wrong it's a great win for Cotto in the context of his career.But in an ideal world it would have been someone like Golovkin getting the chance to be the one ending old Martinez run and showing him up for no longer having anything to offer...not a totally undeserving challenger picked only for his name.


----------



## Michael

tommygun711 said:


> Prime Bazooka would've fucked Cotto's world up. No answer at all for Quartey's jab or right cross.
> 
> I actually watched the Park masterclass yesterday. What a fucking jab. That shit was like Sonny Liston


The same Quartey who went life and death with Jose Lopez? No, just no. What Quartey did, he did very well, great jab, good punching technique, but he had his limitations and would struggle greatly with Cotto's well rounded skillset. Not saying it s definite Cotto win's, but no way does Quartey 'fuck his world up'


----------



## tommygun711

Michael said:


> The same Quartey who went life and death with Jose Lopez? No, just no. What Quartey did, he did very well, great jab, good punching technique, but he had his limitations and would struggle greatly with Cotto's well rounded skillset. Not saying it s definite Cotto win's, but no way does Quartey 'fuck his world up'


Who's to say that Cotto wouldn't have struggled with Jose Lopez? Didn't Cotto himself struggle with some ordinary fighters like Torres?? Or past prime Judah? For all of Cotto's strengths his defense always seemed to be quite ordinary. Quartey would break him down & bust him up with his jab. Cotto went life and death with the likes of Josh Clottey who never had a great win, but employed a lot of the same tactics Quartey would use. High guard, persistent jab and of course Quartey wouldn't let himself get outworked & pounded on the ropes like Clottey did.

I could see a competitive fight, sure, but Quartey's technical skill would make the difference. Cotto's never beaten someone the caliber of Quartey before. This is not the 1 handed fighter that arguably beat DLH & lost to Vargas, it's the one that blew Vince Phillips away & dominated Oba Carr & Ralph Jones.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Quartey controlled most of the JLL fight, but got badly hurt a few times and obviously flustered by Lopez excellent punching power.He got shafted with the draw decision though.

Definitely a fight that showed notable flaws in Quartey, but Cotto is hardly the fighter to take advantage of the ones that were highlighted.Lopez was a tank with a rock jaw, vicious power and good combinations as his strengths.One of the better, more talented pure punchers of the past 25-30 at 147, though he had plenty of flaws otherwise.

I'd make JLL at least even money against Cotto btw. If cotto doesn't exchange and just sticks and moves all night he could certainly win a decision as JLL consistency from fight to fight,workrate, defence and footwork were all mediocre or at times outright poor.....but if he gets too involved he'll be horribly battered as he's not strong, durable or elusive at 147.JLL combinations were far, far superior to the punches Margarito threw in their first fight, and if Pac could wear him down so quickly...could be ugly over the 2nd half of the fight.


----------



## Vic

David Griman was a interesting boxer to watch, check out the Aquiles Guzman bout if you didn´t watch before... And Khosai Galaxy beat him by stoppage, not a bad win IMO, now that I wtached a bit of him!


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> And Khosai Galaxy beat him by stoppage, not a bad win IMO, now that I wtached a bit of him!


You hit the nail on the head, Vic.

The main problem of Khaosai's opponents.
They are extremely insanely criminally underrated.

Yes, true boxing connoisseurs like Flea worship the likes of Tae-Il Chang, Matsumura, Chung Sup Chun, etc.
But they are a voiceless minority.

Take for example the aforementioned David Griman.

An undefeated, prime, amazingly talented ATG in the making.
A complete fighter blessed with an iron chin, blinding speed and respectable power.
A future long reigning champion with legendary wins over Guzman, Blanco and H. Ioka (the only man ever to defeat the great Mr. Yuh himself).

And Khaosai just walked through Griman, reduced him to Martinez-level fighter, made him look like he was just an ordinary defense.

The best win of the decade? A career-defining performance?

For any other fighter - undoubtedly yes.
For Galaxy - just another day at the office.

What does it say about Khaosai's greatness?

I think we all know the answer.


----------



## Vic

:lol:, I gotta say though, if I was around at the time, before the fight, I would probably say something like "Y_ou know, Griman can give him problems with his movemtn, jab, reach and all, not a easy fighjt for Khaosa_i".


----------



## LittleRed

I was blind but now I can see.


----------



## Vic

David Griman > Ricardo Lopez


----------



## Flea Man

Drew101 said:


> Was actually referring to Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez, though. In terms of context, it's a toss up as to whether his win over Zarate tops Cotto's stoppage of Martinez in the better win category.


Not a toss up at all in my opinion. Those wins aren't even in the same ballpark.


----------



## Drew101

Flea Man said:


> Not a toss up at all in my opinion. Those wins aren't even in the same ballpark.


Obviously Zarate is greater than Martinez, and Bazooka's greater than Cotto. I have changed my stance on this since the first flush of surprise has faded. That said, given that Cotto was considered to be a spent bullet two fights ago, it's pretty impressive that he managed to bag his first championship. That doesn't happen all that often.


----------



## tommygun711

Checked out Andy Lee vs John Jackson today. I never actually watched this fight, I just ended up checking the Cotto-Martinez fight live. 

Andy Lee is a strange fighter. You can tell he is athletically gifted, a good counter puncher, with speed and accuracy, but he has some serious defensive flaws and a questionable chin. That's what makes him great to watch. Jackson dropped him early with an overhand right, just like his dad use to do. Lee recovered well, but was definitely having trouble handling Jackson's power & pressure. Jackson kept clocking him with right hands damn near every time he threw it. Lee was definitely getting pounded, but in the 5th round Lee landed a perfect counter right hook right on the button. Great shot. 

I like what I saw from both guys. Jackson is very fun to watch. A great banger. I say Lee can do big things at 154.


----------



## McGrain

Ernie Terrell UD10 Gerhard Zech

Terrell is mad aggressive in the first, bowling and rushing Zech to the canvas with a combination of dirty tactics and rambling offence. He was a crazy man back in the day. A little right-hand happy, he looks tired in the third and he didn't grab the third on my card until the final ten seconds of the round. Zech has found his range a bit and lands two sparkling one-two combos while Terrell is trying to keep control of the German with feints and holding. 

It looked like Zech might actually win the fifth, until Terrell landed the best punch of the fight so far, a jarring right hand that stunned Zech. It's a strange punch. He sometimes cocks it and wings it, he sometimes just lumps it in there, it's never ever normal looking even when it is a part of the 1-2. Sometimes he throws it across himself, almost thumb first, whilst he stands to Zech's side, i've never really seen a punch as unruly remain affective. Terrell was certainly no technician but does it ever work for him. Anyway or no, general rough-housing on Ernie's part saw the round taken out of his hands and placed in the hands of Zech by the ref.

Zech legitimately won the sixth though, hurting Terrell with a left hand, forcing a rubber-legged Terrell to hold on as he appeared to be badly hurt for a few seconds and then rather wobbly for a half minute after. Zech couldn't take advantage though, and Terrell ended the round swinging. He probably doesn't re-gather a measure of control until a mostly featureless eighth, though.

Zech has a very good left-hand.

TERRELL:1,2,3,4,8,9,10
ZECH:5,6,7,

7-3 TERRELL


----------



## Phantom

Bazooka Gomez was absolutely magnificent vs Zarate. When I first saw it...I think as a tape on WW of Sports, I was stunned at how edgy and in control Gomez was aginst the high quality, dangerous Mexican. He was a bit wild and dirty in his excitement, but that's what helped make it an electric experience watching a truly great fighter dominate and destroy another truly great fighter. Gomez was complete...he had it all at 122. No one except possibly Eder Jofre would be able to deal with Wilfredo at that weight..prime for prime. To even say that is an indication of how highly I esteem Jofre. It would have been a stellar,...GREAT fight for the ages.


----------



## Lester1583

> Rodolfo Gonzalez:
> 
> As for Mantequilla, I admired and respected him alot. He was a very smooth and classic fighter. Our styles were similar. I did challenger him for the welterweight championship in the begiining of 1975 and it was made public in the major newspapers in Mexico. However, he was booked up for another fight and then was going to retire so I decided to retire too. If we had ever fought it would have been a very tough fight. Whoever would have won, the other one would have been on the canvas once or twice. I have always wondered that myself since we both had similar styles.
> 
> ...I asked Napoles what made him become a boxer. He told us that he never really liked boxing and that he used to be a baseball player, playing short stop. One time a runner stole second base and it made him really mad and he went over to him and knocked him out with a right hand punch. The baseball coach told him he should try boxing and introduced him to a local fight manager and that's how it all began.


----------



## Lester1583

Read somewhere that Chartchai used to balloon up to 150 pounds between fights.:scaredas:

@Flea Man


----------



## McGrain

Jimmy Young UD12 George Foreman

Young probably takes a close first grazing the former champ with just enough jabs that he takes the round. Foreman, for his part, was mostly inaffective. I liked Young's determination in the clinch, bodes well, clearly a part of their gameplan. He then nicked an excruciatingly close second with sneak rights. 

Young out-jabbed him again in three, Foreman questionably had a point deducted for rough-housing. Big lead for Young, but I gave the fourth and fifth to Foreman on the good bodyshot he landed in the last minute of each round. 

It's a fascinating balance and a dull fight. Young is intimidated by Foreman's crowding stalking, whilst Foreman is wary of Young's countering ability and smarts. He allows himself to be feinted and walked out of position constantly.

When he landed a brutal left hook though, Foreman looked like he was to save himself, following up with a savage uppercut and it becomes a mystery just how Young gets out of the seventh is a mystery. He was hurt in the first minute and by his own testimony could have been pushed to the canvas. You know how Foreman always said in commentary after one fighter hurt another, "you must be conservative!" This fight is why. Foreman punched himself out and Young survived. He showed almighty heart. He actually throws his arms up at the end of the round like he's won.


He then just goes quietly back to dominating the feared Foreman, hurting him in the eleventh and knocking him down in that astonishing twelfth.



FOREMAN: 4,5,7,10,
YOUNG: 1,2,3*,6,8,9,11,12*


116-110 YOUNG


----------



## Michael

Watched Steve Collins vs Mike McCallum. Collins is one hard mofo, goes in here as a young 16-0 prospect to face one of the best ring technicians of that era in Mike McCallum, takes a licking in parts but keeps on going and lasts the distance in a reasonably competitive fight. while maybe a little past it was still top class. McCallum had a quick start, went straight to worka nd painted Collins with power punches and in the 5th in particular looked like he was getting closer to a stoppage. Collins showed heart though and rebounded to take rounds 6 7 and 8 on card on workrate and McCallum looked like the exertion of the previous rounds had took its toll on him. He eased his way back into the fight in the later rounds an took most of rounds 9-12 though. Solid fight this one, plenty of smooth skills on display by McCallum and a sterling effort by a young Collins, who showed a lot of the qualities that would make him a world champion later on. This fight just came a few years too soon for Collins.


----------



## McGrain

Ken Norton SD15 Jimmy Young

Norton counter-punches his way to the first three rounds and then Norton bodypunches his way to the fourth, and for all that the talk of this fight is about tacitcal balances and for all that is true, this is the fight in a nutshell, basically.

The fifth round was crucial and Norton came out determined to dominate it, fast head movement, hurking and jerking, moving his hands and his head, looking for neat punches to the body and messy ones to the head. His high energy style wasn't returning all that much however and when Young began to box back in the middle of the round, it seemed the round might slip away from him - Norton re-upped to take the round on aggression and another fascinating balance is produced.

That balance produced a dead even fight after 8 on my card. Interesting that the judges couldn't agree at all on the matter. Apparently they had 3 and 4 to Young to Norton and even. Which is crazy. Especially as, while thre is arguable, Norton pretty clearly wins four.

Young had a really big tenth, his big rounds were to be based upon his accuracy whereas Norton's are based upon aggression. Awkward for both but nice for the fight that Young doesn't hit hard enough to send Kenny back but hits hard enough to hurt him.

After 11, I still have them even, unable to split them in the eleventh. One of the problems with the way this fight was scored was the number of even rounds the judges came up with. One called six even, one called five even, one called one even.

In the twelfth and thirteenth, I saw Norton's aggression taking him into an early lead before Young's persistent accuracy bought him each on my card. This left Norton, for me, needing the 14th and 15th to claim a draw. 

I saw the fourteenth for Young, Norton having inexplicably given up his body punching in the final quarter of the fight, but thought Norton rallied beautifully to take an exciting 15th. 

I thought this fight, difficult to score though it was, confusing to the eye and mind, pretty clearly belonged to Young.

NORTON:4,5,6,7,9,15.
YOUNG:1,2,3,8,10,12,13,14.
EVEN:11


JIMMY YOUNG 8-6-1


----------



## Flea Man

Drew101 said:


> Obviously Zarate is greater than Martinez, and Bazooka's greater than Cotto. I have changed my stance on this since the first flush of surprise has faded. That said, given that Cotto was considered to be a spent bullet two fights ago, it's pretty impressive that he managed to bag his first championship. That doesn't happen all that often.


Very fair comment.


----------



## LittleRed

Vic said:


> David Griman > Ricardo Lopez


There will be none of that in this thread.


----------



## tommygun711

Watching Ali-Frazier I for shits. IMO the most skilled HW fight ever, next to Bowe-Holyfield I. Might as well score it.

1: Ali 
2: Ali
3: Ali
4: Frazier
5: Ali
6: Frazier
7: Frazier
8: Frazier
9: Ali
10: Ali
11: Frazier (rocked Ali bad)
12: Ali
13: Frazier
14: Ali
15: Frazier

so yeah if you are going by the round by round basis i'd have scored this for ali, 8-7. By points frazier takes it because of the knockdown in the 15th. and maybe the 11th is a 10-8 round. Great, great fight.


----------



## Michael

Watched Bernard Hopkins vs Glen Johnson. One of B-Hops finest performances and ill tell you one thing, prime Bernard Hopkins was a sight to behold! He didn't let up an inch throughout the fight and consistently beat up Johnson with salvos of basically every punch in the book, what little work Johnson did get off was mostly neutralized and as brave as he was he was on a hiding to nothing all night. The fight ended in the 11th with the ref stopping it after hop turned up the heat. Hopkins was vicious and hardly took a minute off the whole fight, showed great conditioning. 

I think ive spent so long watching the psychically decayed Bernard, who relies on ring craft, experience and technique to win fights that I forgot how good his natural availability was. His hand speed in his prime was actually very good, he could throw every punch in the book and from a variety of angles, he had great workrate and conditioning, could fight pretty well on the inside even if it wasn't his preferred range, tough as nails and had a great bag of tricks at his disposal. Really at his best he deserves comparison with any middleweight in history, no one would have an easy night with him.


----------



## doug.ie

Robert Quiroga vs Kid Akeem


----------



## tommygun711

I guess I am in the minority for scoring Ali-Frazier I for Ali, it could easily be scored for Ali imo for he outlanded Joe. Am I nuts?

I've just watched Murray Sutherland vs Matthew Saad Muhammad. Helluva fight, one that Sutherland was winning early on until Saad's natural power came back into the equation.



doug.ie said:


> Robert Quiroga vs Kid Akeem


Good taste.. Such a great fight, that. Kid Akeem should've got the win.


----------



## Drew101

Watched Wilfredo Gomez vs Juan Antonio Lopez I on Flea's channel. Remember watching it as a wee pup, but didn't really appreciate the extent of Bazooka's quality at the time. But he was _on point_ that day against a good solid contender, and dispatched him in a manner that pretty terrifying.

Really, Gomez should have been FOTY in '78. No one did better work than he did that year.


----------



## doug.ie

tommygun711 said:


> Good taste.. Such a great fight, that. Kid Akeem should've got the win.


quite a story too to it all....i was posting about it today...watched the whole fight again before i posted about it.....hope this isnt cluttering up the thread too much...most here will know all this anyway maybe...

......

"I cry so many times," said the 22-year-old Kid Akeem Anifowoshe (pronounced anna-fee-OH-shee). "Whenever I look in the mirror and see myself, I say, 'Oh, no.' "
But worse was what his eyes could not see and his mind refused to register: the injuries he suffered during his last fight, a bloody 12-round world title match against a junior-bantamweight champion named Robert Quiroga.
In the view of virtually everyone but Anifowoshe himself, the injuries have all but ended a promising future for a young Nigerian immigrant and former Olympic hopeful who saw a chance to make a life for himself as a boxer in Las Vegas. Only the fighter does not see his career as being over. In spite of damage he suffered a month ago, he insists, incredibly, that he will fight again.
What was one man's calamity and burden soon became fodder for the continuing debate over boxing. In the weeks that followed, Kid Akeem's injuries raised questions about the wisdom of the use by smaller men of six-ounce gloves in title matches, as he and Quiroga had done, rather than the more heavily padded eight-ounce gloves Anifowoshe wore in his 23 previous fights, all victories, 18 by knockout.
The damage that night was not one-sided. Spindly though he is at 115 pounds, Anifowoshe has always been a heavy puncher, and he showed that against Quiroga. By the end of the fight, Quiroga's face was bloody and swollen, and more than a few people at ringside later said that had the bout not occurred on Quiroga's home turf it might well have been stopped and Anifowoshe awarded the victory. At the final bell, Quiroga looked far worse than the loser, who was virtually unmarked and had finished strong in the 12th round.
Even as a comatose Anifowoshe was being treated in the intensive care unit of the Baptist Medical Center in San Antonio, Quiroga was in the emergency room getting stitches for cuts on his chin, left brow and eyelid.
Hardly was he out of the hospital when Quiroga was saying the I.B.F. should outlaw the use of six-ounce gloves, a clear enough admission that his victory had not been easy.
Anifowoshe remained in the hospital until July 4. That was the day when, against doctor's advice, the fighter's wife, Sharon, took her husband back to Las Vegas, where he was reunited with his two sons, Akeem Jr., 3 years old, and Kazeem, 1 1/2. The family lives in a modest two-bedroom apartment on Steelhead Lane.
But Anifowoshe sees his injuries as simply a temporary setback in reaching his objective, a world title. "Believe me, I will fight again," Anifowoshe said as he lay in bed days ago. "Everything is on me."

For Anifowoshe, the odyssey that brought him to the brink of that dreamed-of title began in Lagos, Nigeria.
He grew up there in a family of nine children. His father, Ashru, was a truck driver; his mother, Nimota, ran a bar.
Anifowoshe's introduction to boxing had a comic undercurrent. It was only after his sister beat him up that an older brother, Dada, took him to the gym so he could learn to defend himself. But Anifowoshe, who was 9 then, was more interested in street life and it wasn't long before he stopped going to the gym. By 12, he said, he was smoking "weed" and loitering at a bus station, where he became deft at picking pockets.
He was 14 when he snatched a purse from the wrong woman. She pummeled him so badly that he returned to the gym and began boxing again. This time, he stuck with the sport and began to win local and national competitions.
In 1984, he was a member of the Nigerian Olympic team. In Los Angeles, site of the Games, he filled out a form, and where he was asked to list his age, he wrote, truthfully, that he was 15, too young for competition. He was declared ineligible.
But rather than return to Nigeria, he decided to stay on in the States and shoot for the 1988 Games. He settled in with Doc Broadus, a coach who had met him in a pre-Olympic training camp for fighters from African nations.
Broadus, who discovered George Foreman in the Job Corps in the mid-1960's, lived in Las Vegas. When Anifowoshe arrived here, it was nighttime, and the city was lighted with neon.
By daylight, he discovered that life in the desert was not so glamorous. He had no car and was constantly short of money. Even so, he routinely lent money to others, particularly fellow Africans, and while living with Broadus and, later on his own, he allowed those without shelter to stay with him, rent-free.
In May 1986 he fought in the world amateur championships in Reno, and felt so victimized by the judges' decision in a quarterfinals bout against a Soviet boxer, Yuri Alexandrov, that he sobbed uncontrollably afterward. "My life, my life," he said, through tears. "I've been training every day. I haven't missed. My God."
The disappointment led him to abandon his Olympic ambitions and instead turn professional in January 1987.
Anifowoshe fought nearly every other month, earning purses ranging from $350 to $600 in bouts arranged to accommodate his senior-year curriculum at Rancho High School. "I was a straight-A student," he said. "Nobody likes school, but anything I do I like to do best."
That dedication extended to boxing.
"He was always asking for more sparring," said Miguel Diaz, his trainer. " 'Let me go one more round,' he'd say. He wasn't afraid of work. And he was very respectful. Never talk back to nobody. Always, 'Thank you.' He was a kid from another generation."
In May 1988, Sharon and Akeem were married at a time when his purses were rarely better than $1,000 a fight, hardly enough for him to support a family. But Baxter figured he had a potential champion in Anifowoshe and was helping to support the fighter, paying his rent and providing him with spending money.
His objective was identical to his fighter's: a world title that would be an open-sesame to the serious money that boxers can make. In fighting Quiroga, Anifowoshe would earn a modest world championship purse of $15,000, still more than double his previous best payday of $7,000.
A glimpse of what might lie ahead if he won was provided by a delegate from the Nigerian President, who in the pre-fight dressing room envisoned Anifowoshe making his first title defense in his native land in an outdoor stadium filled with 50,000 to 60,000 of his countrymen.
Then Nnamdi Moweta, a friend and fight manager who, like Anifowoshe, was from Lagos, began rousing him by telling him in tribal tongue, "You are the lion."
A little more than three weeks later, he lay in bed, a wounded man trying not to let go of a dream.

(By Phil Berger, New York times : July 14, 1991)

........................................

Kid Akeem never boxed in the United States again. There are reports that he turned to drug trafficking and was deported back to Nigeria, where he picked up boxing again after a while. Reports vary on exactly how he died in 1994, some say he had boxed in an ill-advised professional match in Nigeria and collapsed in the shower afterward.

On 16 August 2004, Richard Merla, then a member of the Bandidos Motorcycle Club, was playing cards with Robert Quiroga when a dispute arose concerning a Scarface poster that Merla had taken from one of Quiroga's friends. Merla stabbed Quiroga later that night and Quiroga subsequently died on the scene. Afterwards the Bandidos member, was convicted of the murder and received a sentence of 40 years in prison. The Bandidos released an official statement that the former member (Richard Merla) had acted alone and without the consent or knowledge of the club, and he was expelled as a member.

The Robert Quiroga vs Kid Akeem bout was the Ring Magazine Fight of the Year 1991.


----------



## doug.ie

last night after 12...so today really...her indoors and myself sat down and watched danny nordico vs charley norkus first fight.
the youtube of the full fight is silent but what a thriller...hollywood couldnt have made a rocky type fight any better....savage savage battle.

..even she was looking at it with hands over her eyes looking through her fingers at one point.."oh..my god!!" ....and thats a silent film of the fight.

a must watch for those that havent already.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Finito is too flawless! I can't take it anymore!


You want some action, I've got some action.

Clyde Gray - Chris Clarke 1,2
Cobrita Gonzalez - Kevin Kelley
Cobrita Gonzalez - Luisito Espinoza 2
Virgil Akins - Tony DeMarco 1
Darnell Wilson - Emmanuel Nwodo

Violent exchanges, brutal KOs, blood, hatred and balls of steel.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> You want some action, I've got some action.
> 
> Clyde Gray - Chris Clarke 1,2
> Cobrita Gonzalez - Kevin Kelley
> Cobrita Gonzalez - Luisito Espinoza 2
> Virgil Akins - Tony DeMarco 1
> Darnell Wilson - Emmanuel Nwodo
> 
> Violent exchanges, brutal KOs, blood, hatred and balls of steel.


I really liked Kelly and Gonzalez although it's been ages since I've seen it.


----------



## tommygun711

Benitez-Palomino

While this fight wasn't that competitive, it still was damn fun to watch. A lot of that had to do with Palomino's willingness to trade. You had everything. The power and grit of Palomino, and Benitez's dazzling combinations and footwork.. Benitez really was a marvel to watch at his best. A skilled technician, but also unafraid to mix it up and go to war if he wants. Was a great, great performance. 

my favorite part of the fight when Benitez was up against the ropes at the end of the 14th. Benitez flurried, countered, and avoided being in any trouble vs palomino despite Palomino trying his damnest. Benitez even switched to the southpaw stance to get his straight left hand going. 

This is a masterclass performance and I don't see it get mentioned enough. Sure, not as impressive as Duran-Palomino but still a great great performance. I felt it wasn't as competitive as the judges had it...Benitez's defense was phenomenal. Pretty astonishing that one of the judges (Zach Clayton) had Palomino winning..


----------



## Trail

doug.ie said:


> last night after 12...so today really...her indoors and myself sat down and watched danny nordico vs charley norkus first fight.
> the youtube of the full fight is silent but what a thriller...hollywood couldnt have made a rocky type fight any better....savage savage battle.
> 
> ..even she was looking at it with hands over her eyes looking through her fingers at one point.."oh..my god!!" ....and thats a silent film of the fight.
> 
> a must watch for those that havent already.


There's my entertainment for tomorrow sorted. Just downloaded it in preparation.


----------



## doug.ie

Trail said:


> There's my entertainment for tomorrow sorted. Just downloaded it in preparation.


report back here after fella. be interested in your reaction.


----------



## Trail

doug.ie said:


> report back here after fella. be interested in your reaction.


Yeah, I will. Downloaded it after I saw your post, and if it wasn't for the World Cup I'd be watching now. If you get any more gems like that then let me know. I'm a Gatti - Corrales - slugfest type of fight viewer, I love a real life Rocky film in a boxing ring.


----------



## doug.ie

Trail said:


> Yeah, I will. Downloaded it after I saw your post, and if it wasn't for the World Cup I'd be watching now. If you get any more gems like that then let me know. I'm a Gatti - Corrales - slugfest type of fight viewer, I love a real life Rocky film in a boxing ring.


off hand...











this man lew tendler is probably a huge reason why southpaws became acceptable.....he was far superior than al mccoy who was the first southpaw world champ in the decade previous, and yet tendler never became a world champ himself...


----------



## Trail

doug.ie said:


> off hand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this man lew tendler is probably a huge reason why southpaws became acceptable.....he was far superior than al mccoy who was the first southpaw world champ in the decade previous, and yet tendler never became a world champ himself...


I have the Limon - Chacon IV fight on DVD and have had for years, the rest of your suggestions I will be viewing tomorrow morning with the fight you suggested earlier. Thank you once again. Any more suggestions then post here or PM me my friend (and anyone else too!).


----------



## doug.ie

Trail said:


> I have the Limon - Chacon IV fight on DVD and have had for years, the rest of your suggestions I will be viewing tomorrow morning with the fight you suggested earlier. Thank you once again. Any more suggestions then post here or PM me my friend (and anyone else too!).


this isnt suitable for this thread really (as theres no film of it)....and I dont know if you like reading about fights....you'll have to imagine it as you read...

........

"Grimm took the first round by storm, slamming Johnny to all corners of the ring, with a series of two handed attacks. Dias somehow recovered his composure and kept Joe at distance with long and sharp jabs, like he had done before so efficiently. But this time he was counterpunched brutally, and blood began trickling out of his mouth. Until the end of the round, Dias was pounded with stiff shots over and over, forcing him to move backward across the ring. Only the bell saved Dias from a KO. Joe's fans were on their feet, screaming, "Go for KO!"
During the break Joe was sloshed with icy water by his overzealous brother and was told he was doing great. Dias's cornermen tried unsuccessfully to stop the bleeding, while his coach was shouting in his ear. Whatever instructions he recieved, Dias made good use of them. As Joe launched a new attack, Dias used his rapid footwork, forcing Joe to punch the air while enabling his rival to land well-placed blows. At one time Dias counterattacked in full force, and Joe had trouble escaping punishment. It looked like Dias had recovered and maybe even taken the lead. At least that's what his fans wanted to believe.
But, from the third round on, Joe relentlessly struck Dias's body and head with both fists to the delight of the Boy Scouts and Fall River spectators. Round after round, Joe proved himself to be the master of the ring, showing an excellent command of his actions and inexhaustable stamina. Dias fought bravely and once in a while, when he lashed with his left and right swings, his signature punches, his fans screamed with happiness. He moved a lot but could not avoid a serious battering that made him stagger, still, he remained on his feet. As for Joe, he continued to pummel him in the close sessions.
In round eight Joe decided to finish of his tradional rival who had tainted his record with two defeats. He unleashed one attack after another, forcing Dias to run around the ring and be stopped (from running around) by Referee McDonald. Obviously, he was doing everything he could to escape a KO. He was not a coward and continued to counterattack, but Joe's landings came from all angles and directions and were too painful and risky to absorb. 
Dias was outpointed and outpunched by the little Syrian mittster, both boys were deserving the credit for their showing. 
With his arm raised high by the referee, Joe enjoyed the crowd that could not stop its ovations as he proudly left the arena."

(Fall River Herald - April 12th 1924)

The above account is from the third battle in a series of fights between two journeymen boxers, Joe Grimm (not be confused with Joe Grim, often spelled Grimm who lost to Jack Johnson and Bob Fitzsimmons years earlier) and Johnny Dias, fought at lightweight at Fall River, Massachusetts, USA in 1924. Grimm had lost their two previous battles in 1923 both over points. The pair would have a fourth contest in 1927 with Grimm winning by KO in the first round.

*From the story of journeyman bantamweight boxer Joe Grimm, from the 1920s. Joe weighs 118 pounds and is flat-footed; nevertheless, he wins against boxers who are heavier than he is, he wins when he is booked as a last-minute replacement, and he wins against contenders who are headed to championship bouts. He is so gallant in the ring that the press calls him "Gentleman Joe." His career is interrupted when he and his brother are urgently called home by their immigrant parents. He leaves behind the arenas, with their cheering crowds and works as a butcher in his grocery shop bought with ring money for his family. Grimm lived to be 96 years old.


----------



## LittleRed

LittleRed said:


> God was Puerto Rican tonight.





Vic said:


> He is about to be brazilian for a month though.





LittleRed said:


> Looks like you misspelled German Vic.


Do I get a cookie for this?


----------



## Vic

LittleRed said:


> Do I get a cookie for this?


Haha, fucking A, LR.


----------



## Jdempsey85

does ron lipton post n here?


----------



## Michael

Ali's movement in his younger days was excessive as hell, I know it was all part and parcel of his style and his lateral movement was of occurs every good, he just did way too much of it imo, and often when it served no defensive purpose. I can hardly remember a fighter who had such bouncy footwork as prime Ali.


----------



## tommygun711

Michael said:


> Ali's movement in his younger days was excessive as hell, I know it was all part and parcel of his style and his lateral movement was of occurs every good, he just did way too much of it imo, and often when it served no defensive purpose. I can hardly remember a fighter who had such bouncy footwork as prime Ali.


How did he do way too much of it? Wut? That was his style through and through. Thats like saying frazier moved his head too much. When did it serve no purpose, you mean the cleveland williams fight?


----------



## Michael

tommygun711 said:


> How did he do way too much of it? Wut? That was his style through and through. Thats like saying frazier moved his head too much. When did it serve no purpose, you mean the cleveland williams fight?


There's a few different fights of Ali's where I felt he moved to much, Frazier's bob and weave always had a purpose, he moved his head when he needed to. Great lateral movement and use of the feet for offensive and defensive purposes isn't just simply moving just for the sake of it. The best footwork is often subtle and you move just enough to avoid a punch or get yourself in range to and yourself. Ali did some crazy ass movement in his time. The Williams fight would probbaly be a good example of it from what I recall, seemed to move too much against an outmatched foe.

There were some occasions, such as the first Liston fight where he had to move loads, because Liston was stalking him and ready to drop bombs on him every time he stood still.

It's not even a criticism really, more an observation. It is what it is and it obviously didn't stop him performing well in the ring.


----------



## Lester1583

The 11th round of Napoles-Muniz 1 is a masterclass of technical boxing.

Perfectly executed combinations to Muniz's balls by Napoles.

Made Pedroza shed a tear or two.

Excellent refereeing deserves a special mention too - Napoles is cut, covered in blood, fading, Muniz is about to win the title and right out of nowhere the referee KO's Muniz with a single wave of his hand - technical decision, you lost, bro.

Impeccable timing.

Still a good fight though.

Lotsa good action, blood, headbutts.

The old Napoles is a good example of a fighter with average speed and declined reflexes winning high-level fights on skills (and a granite chin) alone.

Muniz himself was a worthy contender - certainly no worse than someone like Margarito or Chino.


----------



## LittleRed

Napoles winning the second fight is a tribute to his greatness and sobriety.


----------



## Flea Man

@Lester1583 @Manassa @Sweet Pea @McGrain Please read. Any feedback would be much appreciated.http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/7/31/5854816/muay-thai-mma-martial-arts-history-ufc


----------



## McGrain

Flea Man said:


> @Lester1583 @Manassa @Sweet Pea @McGrain Please read. Any feedback would be much appreciated.http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/7/31/5854816/muay-thai-mma-martial-arts-history-ufc


Fucking hell dude, that is giant, i'm about a third of the way through, it's proper history well done but not really my field.

I'll defo finish it up though.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/7/31/5854816/muay-thai-mma-martial-arts-history-ufc


Very interesting articles.

Good job, Flea.


----------



## doug.ie

Flea Man said:


> @Lester1583 @Manassa @Sweet Pea @McGrain Please read. Any feedback would be much appreciated.http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/7/31/5854816/muay-thai-mma-martial-arts-history-ufc


really well written. 
that king who abolished slavery loooks like pacquaio


----------



## Flea Man

McGrain said:


> Fucking hell dude, that is giant, i'm about a third of the way through, it's proper history well done but not really my field.
> 
> I'll defo finish it up though.


I hoped to cater for those who weren't in the field (hence the title of the series) but thought you and the guys would find some worth in the stuff about early Thai boxers such as Prapadaeng, Songkitrat, as well as the development of Muay Thai which is of course inherent to most of the great Thai's we've seen in boxing over the years (with the exception of Kingpetch,, Chionoi and Poontarat, which isn't many when you think about it)

Thanks for your kind words as well. Do take a look at the first three parts if you get a chance, they're nowhere near as long. If you do have any criticisms, be sure to let me know, this writing lark is a constant learning process as you well know.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Very interesting articles.
> 
> Good job, Flea.


Thanks Lester.


----------



## Flea Man

doug.ie said:


> really well written.
> that king who abolished slavery loooks like pacquaio


:lol: He does a bit!!! The emaciated flyweight version of Pacquiao.

Thanks Doug. I have not forgotten about you.


----------



## doug.ie

Flea Man said:


> :lol: He does a bit!!! The emaciated flyweight version of Pacquiao.
> 
> Thanks Doug. I have not forgotten about you.


don't worry about it fella....a cheap copy popped up this week on u.s amazon resellers and i grabbed it...not much more than maybe postage to get from you to me, so you hang on to that one.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Thanks Lester.


The only thing that's missing is some kind of top-3/top-5 fights for casuals.

Not necessaraly the biggest, the most skilled or the most historically significant fights.

But just the kinda action that can turn a passer-by into a Muay Thai fan.

You know, the thai equivalents of Gatti-Ward, Foreman-Frazier, Kalule-Price - brutal wars and violent KO's.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> The only thing that's missing is some kind of top-3/top-5 fights for casuals.
> 
> Not necessaraly the biggest, the most skilled or the most historically significant fights.
> 
> But just the kinda action that can turn a passer-by into a Muay Thai fan.
> 
> You know, the thai equivalents of Gatti-Ward, Foreman-Frazier, Kalule-Price - brutal wars and violent KO's.


That will be coming! Check out 'the elbow fight' that I included in part 4.

Two series will follow this one: The Modern Greats of Muay Thai anf The Legends of Muay Thai. They will be individual profiles of fighters.

I am also just about to start a series called 'Made for MMA' which will look at fighters from history who would've been suited to it had the option been available. Some of the boxers that will feature include Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Dempsey, Paul Berlanbach, Dan Hodge, Masashi Kudo and Henry Milligan.


----------



## Flea Man

doug.ie said:


> don't worry about it fella....a cheap copy popped up this week on u.s amazon resellers and i grabbed it...not much more than maybe postage to get from you to me, so you hang on to that one.


Inbox me your paypal and I will refund the cost to you. Will absolutely not take no for an answer.


----------



## doug.ie

Flea Man said:


> Inbox me your paypal and I will refund the cost to you. Will absolutely not take no for an answer.


don't sweat it fella...i got it for a steal.....i'll be asking some favour or other from you down the road i'm sure...


----------



## doug.ie

how wonderful is this to see..


----------



## Manassa

Flea Man said:


> @Lester1583 @Manassa @Sweet Pea @McGrain Please read. Any feedback would be much appreciated.http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/7/31/5854816/muay-thai-mma-martial-arts-history-ufc


Looks very comprehensive - will be favouriting and reading the rest. Thanks for writing, I'm bound to read through several times.


----------



## Flea Man

Manassa said:


> Looks very comprehensive - will be favouriting and reading the rest. Thanks for writing, I'm bound to read through several times.


Really hope you enjoy it and hope to hear some feedback from yourself and @McGrain


----------



## McGrain

I'll for sure sit down on it dude, this week or next.


----------



## doug.ie

I read about a fight today....that acceptable for this thread?....a round by round account.


----------



## Flea Man

McGrain said:


> I'll for sure sit down on it dude, this week or next.


Fair do's, I see you've got a big project on yourself...have commented a few times.


----------



## McGrain

Flea Man said:


> Fair do's, I see you've got a big project on yourself...have commented a few times.


Honestly, it's lifting my fucking paint, I wish I had never started it.

Put me right of doing 175lbs.


----------



## Flea Man

McGrain said:


> Honestly, it's lifting my fucking paint, I wish I had never started it.
> 
> Put me right of doing 175lbs.


You not gonna' do it then?

I'm working on a top ten (and honourable mentions) from 108 to heavy (all super/junior divisions included)


----------



## McGrain

Flea Man said:


> You not gonna' do it then?
> 
> I'm working on a top ten (and honourable mentions) from 108 to heavy (all super/junior divisions included)


Dunno. The original plan was one a year until I die. I might kick up a thread here when the time comes.

Or I may just demote the whole thing to top fifties.


----------



## Flea Man

McGrain said:


> Dunno. The original plan was one a year until I die. I might kick up a thread here when the time comes.
> 
> Or I may just demote the whole thing to top fifties.


I've got a fair few projects on the go.

A series on the flyweight division.

And as I say, a top ten of all weight classes.

As well as writing for bloodyelbow, which is a consistent gig.


----------



## LittleRed

doug.ie said:


> how wonderful is this to see..


It's rare that you see the phrase 'he had nothing to keep him off him' be so literal. Walker didn't even bother to move his head.

Also, you have to love the way the Toy Bulldog threw his hook. Kinda the opposite of Ray Robinson; Ray often threw a half hook, half uppercut whereas Walker almost came over the top. And he starts the knockout punch behind himself before pivoting into it. Beautiful.


----------



## Bill Jincock

McGrain said:


> Honestly, it's lifting my fucking paint, I wish I had never started it.
> 
> Put me right of doing 175lbs.


what's this? direct me to it at once.


----------



## McGrain

Bill Jincock said:


> what's this? direct me to it at once.


http://www.boxing.com/the_100_greatest_heavyweights_of_all_time_part_1_100_91.html


----------



## Bill Jincock

nice.Helluva task though, i'd have no idea how to rank them after about 30.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> nice.Helluva task though, i'd have no idea how to rank them after about 30.


Read my history of Muay Thai and boxing in Thailand you dour Scottish bastard.


----------



## Bill Jincock

I will.


Been thinking about watching some Muay thai for a while actually, or some MMA.Burned out on boxing and more or less taking a lengthy break from watching, other than the odd fight.Been too lazy so far though.It takes a bit of effort knowing where to start and i wouldn't want to watch a handful of the wrong fights and get put off.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> I will.
> 
> Been thinking about watching some Muay thai for a while actually, or some MMA.Burned out on boxing and more or less taking a lengthy break from watching, other than the odd fight.Been too lazy so far though.It takes a bit of effort knowing where to start and i wouldn't want to watch a handful of the wrong fights and get put off.


Link to the whole series here http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/6/3...eginners-guide-kyle-mcLachlan-complete-series

If you have any questions about MT or MMA, just ask.

As for Muay Thai, why wouldn't you wanna' see Veeraphol and Samart at their absolute peak?


----------



## Jdempsey85

Fair play to Ray Mercer myself or damiani didnt see that coming!


----------



## Klompton

LittleRed said:


> And he starts the knockout punch behind himself before pivoting into it. Beautiful.


You hit the nail on the head there. This is my favorite Walker fight because it shows him doing everything, boxing, punching, moving, pressuring etc. But that KO punch really shows his judgement of distance, timing, and coordination. Walker was typically a compact, tight puncher. But here, he sees Milligan coming in fast and twists his left to get leverage on it and then CRACK puts Milligan out. According to the newspapers when he knocked Milligan out Milligan had blood spurting from his nose and ears. You can see the blood spot on the canvas when they turn him over and hear the announcer call for a doctor after the KO. Great performance.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Milligan was staggering forward, completely open and inviting to be wiped out at the end.I didn't find it that impressive.


----------



## Bill Jincock

just talking about the end btw.Walker looks a beast.


----------



## Klompton

Just got some great footage in today Ive been watching:

Jake LaMotta Vs Tommy Bell 2








Joey LaMotta Vs Fernand Demers








Jake LaMotta Vs Vic Dellacurti 3








Jake LaMotta Vs Tommy Bell 3








Joey LaMotta Vs Gene Boland








Jake LaMotta Vs Anton Raadik


----------



## Jdempsey85

@Klompton

Great pics the last one in particular he looks a mean bastard,you got his fight vs Cerdan?


----------



## Klompton

Jdempsey85 said:


> @Klompton
> 
> Great pics the last one in particular he looks a mean bastard,you got his fight vs Cerdan?


Yeah, we are lucky as hell to have that. That films, like those I posted above, were all filmed by Jake himself. Or rather by people for Jake.


----------



## doug.ie

good stuff klompton.....without over-doing it on the ass-kissing...what a wonderful addition to these forums you are.

anyway.....davey moore i've been watching on youtube here....what a lovely boxer he was...


----------



## Klompton

I like Davey Moore a lot too. Hes pretty underrated today IMO.

BTW you are a great addition to the forum as well


----------



## Flea Man

@McGrain :think


----------



## Flea Man

@McGrain :think


----------



## doug.ie

just finished watching salvador sanchez v azumah nelson again.
such a brave effort from a raw novice nelson..all heart and tenacity.


----------



## tommygun711

Klompton said:


> I like Davey Moore a lot too. Hes pretty underrated today IMO.
> 
> BTW you are a great addition to the forum as well


Recently checked out his fight against Kalule again. Thought he was pretty good there, that's an underrated fight imo. I didn't remember it being such a slugfest but it was, Moore was pretty good.


----------



## Klompton

tommygun711 said:


> Recently checked out his fight against Kalule again. Thought he was pretty good there, that's an underrated fight imo. I didn't remember it being such a slugfest but it was, Moore was pretty good.


We were actually referring to the original Davey Moore. The Davey Moore from the 80s was pretty good. He could have been better but he was rushed.


----------



## tommygun711

Klompton said:


> We were actually referring to the original Davey Moore. The Davey Moore from the 80s was pretty good. He could have been better but he was rushed.


thats what i get for reading too quickly


----------



## McGrain

Flea Man said:


> Link to the whole series here http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/6/3...eginners-guide-kyle-mcLachlan-complete-series
> 
> If you have any questions about MT or MMA, just ask.
> 
> As for Muay Thai, why wouldn't you wanna' see Veeraphol and Samart at their absolute peak?


Yes, it's absolutely excellent, congratulations. It's proper history. I mean I don't know if it's accurate or not but it's a superb primer. Congratulations on staying cohesive. Very very tough over a long series, believe me I know. It's very cohesive, and when you get baggy it tends to be for stylistic reasons. It's also a bit dry - but as Springs once said to me, a flower is always fascinating to a botanist. I feel you know your audience and have written accordingly. Maybe step out now though.

I haven't had time to watch the accompanying videos, which was sometimes a barrier to a proper appraisal but I think you did a great job tbh. I can run through some stylistic bugbears privately if you like but tbh, they are just a matter of preference, and I wouldn't bother to take me up on that if I were you. One writer who I shall not name, told me I need to cut the length of my sentences. Fuck you, I like long sentences.

I enjoyed it, even though it's not about something i'm interested in, which is always a fine achievement.


----------



## Flea Man

McGrain said:


> Yes, it's absolutely excellent, congratulations. It's proper history. I mean I don't know if it's accurate or not but it's a superb primer. Congratulations on staying cohesive. Very very tough over a long series, believe me I know. It's very cohesive, and when you get baggy it tends to be for stylistic reasons. It's also a bit dry - but as Springs once said to me, a flower is always fascinating to a botanist. I feel you know your audience and have written accordingly. Maybe step out now though.
> 
> I haven't had time to watch the accompanying videos, which was sometimes a barrier to a proper appraisal but I think you did a great job tbh. I can run through some stylistic bugbears privately if you like but tbh, they are just a matter of preference, and I wouldn't bother to take me up on that if I were you. One writer who I shall not name, told me I need to cut the length of my sentences. Fuck you, I like long sentences.
> 
> I enjoyed it, even though it's not about something i'm interested in, which is always a fine achievement.


Thank you.

Do PM me though...I will listen to any criticisms you have, and would like to hear your observations on any stylistic bagginess you noticed, even if you think it was intentional.

And hey, you like old fighters, you know about Thai's; if nothing else I hope you'll have a better grasp on their backgrounds now, even if Muay Thai isn't your bag.

As for the dryness, I found it hard to be too sharp when dealing with a foreign culture...I reserve my cinical quips for subjects closer to home, and troed to look at this subject as clinically as I could.

Look forward to your PM and hey, I love Faulkner and McCarthy, so long sentences are no problem to me squire.


----------



## tommygun711

Man every time I watch Johnny Tapia fight it makes me laugh/happy because of some shit that he does :lol: the way he rallies the crowd and stares down his opponent with that dumb look of his. or when he looks at the camera and shouts out somebody from ABQ :rofl His obvious fighting abilities aside

Tapia a complete G, even if he was insane


----------



## Vic

tommygun711 said:


> Man every time I watch Johnny Tapia fight it makes me laugh/happy because of some shit that he does :lol: the way he rallies the crowd and stares down his opponent with that dumb look of his. or when he looks at the camera and shouts out somebody from ABQ :rofl His obvious fighting abilities aside
> 
> Tapia a complete G, even if he was insane


I scored both for Ayala. (very underrated imo btw, Ayala)


----------



## tommygun711

Vic said:


> I scored both for Ayala. (very underrated imo btw, Ayala)


Well the Showtime Commentators would disagree with you.. I don't know, the way Tapia came on late may have sealed the deal in a close fight. When he started to back up Ayala.


----------



## zadfrak

Vitali--Sanders.

Terrific brawl. Sanders even not in top condition was dangerous because he's the type that can lay in the weeds and explode with those 3 or 5 second bursts. The rest of the time he's happy just to try and nullify but not win. Lots of guys cannot pull that kind of thing off very well. If they get down in a fight 4 or 5 rounds to 1, they are no longer dangerous.

And just how did Vitali take about 3 of those clean counters anyway? He got hit on the button after missing his own right hand and Sanders landed a perfect shot on the guy. Lots of times, the bout was over if Corrie landed like that. Come to think of it, he won lots of fights not even landing that clean.

And Sanders sure did hang tough in there. He gritted his teeth in there and continued to exchange on a few occasions when he was stung or hurt. And go forward which is not easy when vitali is landing his combos. Sometimes guys will put in a top career effort in a title fight, and he sure did. 

Really a good fight to watch.


----------



## thehook13

Hearns - Cuevas

Perfect domination by Hearns. The perfect mix of finesse, professionalism, technique and animal aggression definitely up there with Ali-Williams.


----------



## Klompton

Vic said:


> I scored both for Ayala. (very underrated imo btw, Ayala)


I scored both for Tapia. How many gift decisions did Ayala get there in a row? Tapia, Bredahl, Tapia, Dianzo, Adams. At least three of those he lost outright.


----------



## doug.ie

not today....last night....hagler v mugabi.

still amazes me how skillful mugabi was in that.....he was superb.


----------



## Vic

Klompton said:


> I scored both for Tapia. How many gift decisions did Ayala get there in a row? Tapia, Bredahl, Tapia, Dianzo, Adams. At least three of those he lost outright.


I don´t remember too much those to comment. I think Tapia landed more but Ayala landed more quality, classic example to me of quantity vs quality punches.


----------



## tommygun711

Vic said:


> I don´t remember too much those to comment. I think Tapia landed more but Ayala landed more quality, classic example to me of quantity vs quality punches.


don't you think Tapia took control of the fight in the second half/late rounds of the first fight? I thought it was clear he was on top.


----------



## Vic

tommygun711 said:


> don't you think Tapia took control of the fight in the second half/late rounds of the first fight? I thought it was clear he was on top.


I can´t remember the fight that well in this aspect tbh. Gonna watch it again soon.


----------



## Theron

Hagler - Leonard, first time in ages, scored for Leonard


----------



## PityTheFool

Watched McCallum-Kalambay II last night.
What a display of technical brilliance!
And with the sound down,I found it much easier to score and had MM by two or three points.
Always felt that Eurosport commentary was a bit anti-McCallum or perhaps pro-Kalambay is a better way of putting it.


----------



## Flea Man

PityTheFool said:


> Watched McCallum-Kalambay II last night.
> What a display of technical brilliance!
> And with the sound down,I found it much easier to score and had MM by two or three points.
> Always felt that Eurosport commentary was a bit anti-McCallum or perhaps pro-Kalambay is a better way of putting it.


I have had it 115-113 either way and a draw. One of _those_ kinda' fights.


----------



## doug.ie

this one lined up for later to watch again...look at 50 seconds in here..


----------



## thehook13

Year today, since Tommy Morrison died. RIP

Morrison - Mercer, Morrison - Ruddock, Morrison - Williams, Morrison - Tillis


----------



## Pedderrs

Erik Morales - Guty Espadas Jr II

Short and sweet. Guty is stopped at the end of the third round by a rather innocuous looking right hand.


----------



## TSOL

54 years ago today.


----------



## Pedderrs

How to win a fight without winning a single minute of a single round.


----------



## Klompton

I had some films of Jack Dempsey transferred to HD and just got those back. Pretty amazed by the quality.

Dempsey-Firpo:

















































Dempsey-Tunney II:


----------



## Flea Man

Amazing @Klompton


----------



## Jdempsey85

@Klompton Awesome how do i go about getting chacon vs limon 4 transferred to hd?


----------



## Flea Man

Jdempsey85 said:


> @Klompton Awesome how do i go about getting chacon vs limon 4 transferred to hd?


I THINK you need the film. I may not be right though.


----------



## doug.ie

look at them tunney II screenshots !!


----------



## thehook13

Good idea getting film converted. The resolution shouldn't be surprising, they could blow it up even bigger if they wanted too. Whatever detail transferred from the film can also be enhanced with restoration techniques but that all comes down to personal preference.


----------



## Klompton

Jdempsey85 said:


> @Klompton Awesome how do i go about getting chacon vs limon 4 transferred to hd?


Do you have the actual film of it?


----------



## Jdempsey85

Klompton said:


> Do you have the actual film of it?


No I wish i did


----------



## Michael

Finally got around to watching Gonzalez vs Yaegashi from last week. What a performance from Chocolatito:happy Ive not watched a more aesthetically pleasing domination of a game, skilled and proven fighter like Yaegashi in a long time, Genuinely a punch perfect from Gonzalez who's still the offense whirlwind that came on the scene years ago. 

He landed with a great array of combinations from the first bell, showing accuracy, speed, power and timing in everything he threw, and dealt with the spurts of success that Yaegashi had very well. The end came when Yaegashi, beaten up and well behind on the scorecards, says fuck it and decides to throw the kitchen sink at Gonazlez, and ends up on his ass for his trouble in one of the best rounds of the year:yep I can't think of another fighter who's as good offensively as Gonzales is right now in boxing. Brilliant to watch in full flow.


----------



## Jdempsey85

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoyJ0zmMFd7LZwK6hON6QnQ/videos

https://www.youtube.com/user/monsterman7441/videos

Great Channels

Full ESPN Broadcast of Caveman Lee vs John LoCicero with undercard :happy


----------



## Vic

Zarate still has it!


----------



## Lester1583

Kimio Furesawa's courageuos effort against Cunto makes Corrales' pathetic attempts at stalking Mayweather even more ridicule-worthy considering Furesawa was fighting the much greater fighter.

But then again Furesawa was the fearless ronin who broke the unbreakable Oguma and made him his geisha and Corrales was the guy who used to swallow mouthpieces on his way to brutal ko losses.

So it's probably not a fair comparison.


----------



## Lester1583

The Azabache fight is an underrated win for Uncle Rogah.

Wouldn't call it the most entertaining fight but the skill level shown by both fighters was pretty solid.

Unlike the first Nelson victory Martinez pressed the action most of the time - Uncle used his shoulder roll defense (which was okay and less jittery than his nephew's) on the inside and threw some good (if somewhat lazy/sloppy looking sometimes) counters.

Martinez took Roger's famous right hand without flinching but was unable to connect cleanly himself.

Mayweather wasn't active enough in the later rounds, Martinez wasn't accurate but threw more, so it's no surprise it was a SD.

Worth a look if you're a fan either fighters.


----------



## Michael

What you reckon lads, this man going to be the second greatest cruiserweight of all time or what? He has no weaknesses:yep

He's cruising these type of fights in first gear though, its time for an Artur Beterbiev esque step up in competition. Would really like to see him against someone durable and proven, like Firat Arslan. That might be too risky now though, but a good durable fringe contender is needed for Usyk soon.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Kimio Furesawa's courageuos effort against Cunto makes Corrales' pathetic attempts at stalking Mayweather even more ridicule-worthy considering Furesawa was fighting the much greater fighter.
> 
> But then again Furesawa was the fearless ronin who broke the unbreakable Oguma and made him his geisha and Corrales was the guy who used to swallow mouthpieces on his way to brutal ko losses.
> 
> So it's probably not a fair comparison.


Furesawa almost knocked canto (is cunto a typo or is that something more sinister...) in the middle of that fight.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Furesawa almost knocked canto (is cunto a typo or is that something more sinister...) in the middle of that fight.


It looked more dramatic than it was.

Canto was in full control of the situation.

Just wanted to give Furesawa some hope.


----------



## Lester1583

Michael said:


> What you reckon lads, this man going to be the second greatest cruiserweight of all time or what? He has no weaknesses:yep


It't way too early to tell.

We've seen many fighters before who looked amazing in the beginning of their careers and achieved nothing.

It has happened before, it will happen again.

Usyk haven't fought anybody.

He does look like one of the best young prospects in boxing today though.


----------



## Michael

Lester1583 said:


> It't way too early to tell.
> 
> We've seen many fighters before who looked amazing in the beginning of their careers and achieved nothing.
> 
> It has happened before, it will happen again.
> 
> Usyk haven't fought anybody.
> 
> He does look like one of the best young prospects in boxing today though.


He fought a who's who list of fighter's in the amateurs though. Brilliant skills, almost unrivaled pedigree today (apart from Lomachenko) and ive seen him tested in a variety of ways and with a variety of styles in the unpaid ranks. Barring some unheard of vulnerability chin wise, cant really see anything halting his progress at least at at the 200 pound division. Think he will cut a swathe through a division filled with solid, but beatable champions.

I tend to be a fair bit premature when it comes to predicting the ceiling of a lot of top amateur who've turned over recently, but I am just that impressed by this current crop of young pros. The 2000-2008 Olympics were filled with some very average fighters, with a few exceptions, Gamboa, Rigo, Ward , but the 2012 class will produced a shitload of world champions imo.


----------



## Lester1583

Can a case be made for Minter-Finnegan 2 as the greatest British fight of all time?:yep
Finnegan's right hand was almost monzonesque in that fight - painfully slow and brutally punishing.










@Bill Jincock


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Furesawa almost knocked canto (is cunto a typo or is that something more sinister...) in the middle of that fight.


Furesawa was a serious banger.

Did I upload that?


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> I f'n love that fight.





Flea Man said:


> Furesawa was a serious banger.
> 
> Did I upload that?


Nah some other guy. Decent channel though, some good stuff.


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> Nah some other guy. Decent channel though, some good stuff.


It's a mate, Pavel. He's got loads of channels going.

Still thinks mine is the best


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> It's a mate, Pavel. He's got loads of channels going.
> 
> Still thinks mine is the best


I'll admit you do put together a sexy channel. A Changtastic channel even.


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> I'll admit you do put together a sexy channel. A Changtastic channel even.


Nice :yep


----------



## Axe Murderer

LittleRed said:


> Nah some other guy. Decent channel though, some good stuff.


Great channel its not the only one he has and he gets extra points from me for uploading fights without having those annoying letters popping up in the middle of the video like we see in many other boxing videos.


----------



## Flea Man

Axe Murderer said:


> Great channel its not the only one he has and he gets extra points from me for uploading fights without having those annoying letters popping up in the middle of the video like we see in many other boxing videos.


Cheers, I won't bother uploading anything else then.

He doesn't pay for his footage, that's the difference.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Lester1583 said:


> Can a case be made for Minter-Finnegan 2 as the greatest British fight of all time?:yep
> Finnegan's right hand was almost monzonesque in that fight - painfully slow and brutally punishing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bill Jincock


Don't know if i'd go that far:lol:, though it's a really good fight.

i've always like Finnegan as a fighter.maybe it was because he often seemed like he was trying to be a napoles\Conteh\Dejesus like loose smooth catlike fighter, yet with none of the standout physical attributes really needed for that kind of thing at all.He had great durability and strong stamina, but average at best reflexive speed..or any speed in general.

Despite that he could do well at times slipping good quality punches with smooth headmovement and little upperbody shifts.A nice economical technical fighter with really good accuracy.Pity he was also a lazy bastard and hard drinker.Still, i think at his best he could give some of the more recognised and naturally talented Brit middles like Benn, Eubank, Graham etc tough fights.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> i've always like Finnegan as a fighter.maybe it was because he often seemed like he was trying to be a napoles\Conteh\Dejesus like loose smooth catlike fighter, yet with none of the standout physical attributes really needed for that kind of thing at all.


Sibson-Finnegan is almost comical because of that.

Two skilled fighters looking like pub regulars in a fierce fight.

Loser buys a round of drinks.


----------



## Bill Jincock

:lol:

to be fair, i think Finnegan had let himself go a bit by that time, post-minter trilogy.he had a near tire around his waist by the Sibbo fight.

sibson on the other hand, had yet to master his legendary upperbody movement.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Finnegan


And lest we forget, Finnegan is the man who ruined Hagler and turned him into a nervous wreck who mentally folded under pressure countless times.

Ever since those nightmarish right hands from the British bad boy bounced off Marvin's cue ball, Hagler hasn't been the same.


----------



## Lester1583

Viagra + Roids + Super Mega Mass Protein 400 + Caffeine Injections.

No need for that tonight, @LittleRed

Just watch Art Hafey - Rodolfo Moreno.

This stuff will make you a goddamned sexual Tyrannosaurus.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Viagra + Roids + Super Mega Mass Protein 400 + Caffeine Injections.
> 
> No need for that tonight, @LittleRed
> 
> Just watch Art Hafey - Rodolfo Moreno.
> 
> This stuff will make you a goddamned sexual Tyrannosaurus.


I did. Accidentally Fucked my neighbors van. Now I have metal herpes and a minivan on the way! *dad joke*


----------



## Lester1583

Is it me or does Estaba look like a crazy mix between Monzon, Eubank and Whitaker?





@Bill Jincock


----------



## Lester1583

For some unknown reason I always thought that Bubi Scholz's loss to Harold Johnson was controversial.

Turns out even the german press thought Scholz lost fair and square in a tactical fight.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> For some unknown reason I always thought that Bubi Scholz's loss to Harold Johnson was controversial.
> 
> Turns out even the german press thought Scholz lost fair and square in a tactical fight.


I mean it's Harold Johnson.

Did you see Flea with the Lagutin upload? Based on this footage alone I would pick him to beat Carlos Monzon.


----------



## Flea Man

LittleRed said:


> I mean it's Harold Johnson.
> 
> Did you see Flea with the Lagutin upload? Based on this footage alone I would pick him to beat Carlos Monzon.


 @Vysotsky gave me that footage. I'm going to upload more Soviet amateurs this weekend, and thanks to Lester, more in the coming weeks.

Tomorrow you'll have Chionoi-Burruni.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Did you see Flea with the Lagutin upload? Based on this footage alone I would pick him to beat Carlos Monzon.


That's an amazingly accurate prediction, LR.

I agree totally.

Although I gotta say that it would have been a classic chess match between two stand-up fighters with ATG jabs and srtong right hands - a close fight with neither fighter gaining a clear advantage.

Ageev, on the other hand, would have completely perplexed the slow Monzon with his unorthodox Burley-like moves and explosive unpredictable Jones-like attack.

Valery "Mr. KO" Popenchenko stops Monzon easily - that's pretty much a given.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> That's an amazingly accurate prediction, LR.
> 
> I agree totally.
> 
> Although I gotta say that it would have been a classic chess match between two stand-up fighters with ATG jabs and srtong right hands - a close fight with neither fighter gaining a clear advantage.
> 
> Ageev, on the other hand, would have completely perplexed the slow Monzon with his unorthodox Burley-like moves and explosive unpredictable Jones-like attack.
> 
> Valery "Mr. KO" Popenchenko stops Monzon easily - that's pretty much a given.


:lol:


----------



## doug.ie

i started off watching some sot chitalada recently......and eventually it led me to watching this...which was great...


----------



## Flea Man

doug.ie said:


> i started off watching some sot chitalada recently......and eventually it led me to watching this...which was great...


That's a great fight! Funnily enough I'm gonna' upload both Yong Kang Kim-Chitalada fights this weekend!


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> @Vysotsky gave me that footage. I'm going to upload more Soviet amateurs this weekend, and thanks to Lester, more in the coming weeks.
> 
> Tomorrow you'll have Chionoi-Burruni.


All I took from this post was that Flea is having an upload weekend. Which I always enjoy.

And @Lester1583 is pretty spot on with the analysis. Like he has a crystal ball.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> I mean it's Harold Johnson.


Exactly.

Ezz, Moore, Bivins, Pasrtano, Satterfield, Bubi, Cotton, Machen, D. Jones, Marshall, Hank (!), N.Valdez, Godoy, Lytell, Morrow,

Compare his resume to the so-called greats like Spinks who's best win is an overrated midget Qawi or Foster's ridiculously weak list of wins.

It's not even funny.

And don't me get me started on who was da most most technically perfect fighter the division has ever seen.










And H. Johnson would have beaten the lame version of Holmes that lost to Spinks.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Dinamo Tbilisi 1981 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barca 2008


Now that's what I call a good avatar:yep


----------



## Lester1583

Stable - Kitten Hayward is basically a light welter outboxing and outfighting a solid light middleweight.

It's a pity Stable's prime was so short - Hayward, Cokes, Lane - these are some pretty good wins for an almost unknown fighter.

I'd say Stable looked no lesser talent than someone like Meldrick Taylor (who too should've stayed at light welter).

Damn you, Griffith.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Stable - Kitten Hayward is basically a light welter outboxing and outfighting a solid light middleweight.
> 
> It's a pity Stable's prime was so short - Hayward, Cokes, Lane - these are some pretty good wins for an almost unknown fighter.
> 
> I'd say Stable looked no lesser talent than someone like Meldrick Taylor (who too should've stayed at light welter).
> 
> Damn you, Griffith.


Agreed. Stable gave Griffith a decent fight too.

He should've fought at 140. I don't see Locche having an easy night with him at all.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> I don't see Locche having an easy night with him at all.


I agree and disagree.

Agree because Stable really was that good - he would've given plenty of fighters a tough fight.
Locche is no exception.

Disagree because it's not like Stable is the worst possible match-up for Locche - he was aggressive and liked inside-fighting - El Intoccable wanted you to be aggressive and he wanted you to get on the inside.

Someone with a more jab-oriented/economical outfighter/minimum risk approach is a much harder fight for Locche, in my opinion.


----------



## Lester1583

Chionoi's mix of a good classic jab, an awkward right hand, size, toughness and balls of steel was as deadly as Brian Mitchell's mustache.

The man beat warriors like El Alacran, Hanagata, McGowan, Burruni, Villacampo, Chartvanchai, Seki and almost amirkhan'd the great Ohba.

And they nominate Vorapin for HoF.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Chionoi's mix of a good classic jab, an awkward right hand, size, toughness and balls of steel was as deadly as Brian Mitchell's mustache.
> 
> The man beat warriors like El Alacran, Hanagata, McGowan, Burruni, Villacampo, Chartvanchai, Seki and almost amirkhan'd the great Ohba.
> 
> And they nominate Vorapin for HoF.


:lol: So fucking true!


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Accidentally Fucked my neighbors van.


Hafey - Danny Lopez is almost painful to watch.

Hafey took hellacious shots from Danny but kept on fighting 'till the end.

Toy Tiger was so fearless even Arguello was terrified of him.


----------



## LittleRed

Danny Lopez is the reason I'm alive today.


----------



## Michael

Watched a very young Wilfred Benitez slay Tony Petronelli. Great Finnish by Benitez, put his punches together beautifully when he got going. Anyone know whether Tony Was Pat or Goody's son?


----------



## Lester1583

On a random note, what the hell is happening to the Thai boxing?

Ruenroeng who barely squeaked past Arroyo?
Chuwattana who fights as often as Ward?
Freshmart who looks like a 35 years old?

There's no one around even on the level of Pong.

- Do you even train, guys?


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> On a random note, what the hell is happening to the Thai boxing?
> 
> Ruenroeng who barely squeaked past Arroyo?
> Chuwattana who fights as often as Ward?
> Freshmart who looks like a 35 years old?
> 
> There's no one around even on the level of Pong.
> 
> - Do you even train, guys?


Jomthong is still fighting in Muay Thai. Much more active than Ward.

But yes, with new promoter 'Boat' the temptation to leave Muay Thai is lesser than before. They can make money beating up rubbish foreigners rather than taking on boxers with more experience than they do.

The funding for amateur boxing is lesser than before also. Their big hope, Muay Thai superstar Sangmanee Sor Tienpo, did not transition to amateur boxing as was hoped for and he's lost about 6 or 7 fights this year, going from P4P no.2 in Muay Thai to possibly washed up before his 18th birthday.


----------



## Lester1583

Pacquiao is just a pale imitation of the great Flash Besande.

The power-punching Saijo on the other hand would brutally school Marquez's flat footed ass.

These pretenders are all lucky they are fighting in a weak era of Norwood and Floyd.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Pacquiao is just a pale imitation of the great Flash Besande.
> 
> The power-punching Saijo on the other hand would brutally school Marquez's flat footed ass.
> 
> These pretenders are all lucky they are fighting in a weak era of Norwood and Floyd.


Marquez would Antonio Gomez poor Saijo's ass.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Marquez would Antonio Gomez poor Saijo's ass.


Not the master-boxer Saijo of the Rojas fight.

That Saijo would give Marquez plenty to think about.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Not the master-boxer Saijo of the Rojas fight.
> 
> That Saijo would give Marquez plenty to think about.


He actually was pretty good there.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> He actually was pretty good there.


Your bias is beyond absurd.

Saijo was magnificent.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Your bias is beyond absurd.
> 
> Saijo was magnificent.


:lol: What bias? I love Saijo!


----------



## Bill Jincock

Watched Kalule vs Graham again there.

Kalule's legs and reflexes, especially offensive reactions were more or less shot, he barely manages to pull the trigger on a straight-left all fight and doesn't have the bounce to utilise all the little slides and half-steps he would in his prime to stay on balance and in punching range.He still slips punches very well due to his fundamentals, but offensively gets nothing done other than the odd counter-jab and is reeling around the ring every time Graham lands a good punch.

Graham fought one of his more disciplined fights against a world level fighter here, with none of the hands by the waist showboating he could slip into and which at times did him no good against McCallum.It's no surprise that due to this fight he and his team took kalambay lightly and saw him as not much more than a warm-up for Barkley, they were obviously ignorant of how much that fight had taken out of kalule.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Graham fought one of his more disciplined fights against a world level fighter here, with none of the hands by the waist showboating he could slip into and which at times did him no good against McCallum.


Graham also was quite reserved, conventional even by his own standard against Lindell Holmes.

I haven't seen all of his early fights - was he less reckless in his early career?

Kinda obvious but had Graham been at least as careful as the light heavyweight Jones, he would have been a better fighter.


----------



## Lester1583

For a fighter with such an atrocious boxing forums record Sergio Victor Palma actually wasn't that bad.

He kinda reminds me a bit of Brandon Rios - less powerful but more technical - very similar approach - high guard, plodding footwork (not nearly as bad as Rios'), good inside fighting, constant pressure, mostly hooks.

Lujan looked sloppy and somewhat unfocused, in my opinion, but still Palma beat him fair and square (you disappointed me, Davila) and proved he was ok for a totally forgotten splinter champ.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Lester1583 said:


> Graham also was quite reserved, conventional even by his own standard against Lindell Holmes.
> 
> I haven't seen all of his early fights - was he less reckless in his early career?
> 
> Kinda obvious but had Graham been at least as careful as the light heavyweight Jones, he would have been a better fighter.


No, it just seemed to be something he would do about half the time.Usually against lower level fighters...journeymen, domestic level opposition etc He'd usually reign it in against better fighters.Maybe the first world title fight nerves against Mcallum, after waiting so long for a shot had the effect of turning him into a hubris filled egomaniac instead of the usual conservative displays they usually cause.:lol:

The panamanian trainers that he used in the corner for a few fights after signing with Barney Eastwood and falling out with Brendan Ingle tried to implement more technically orthodox moves into his defensive arsenal, but when Kalambay beat him they were used as scapegoats for apparently making him "too aggressive" and the old hack Ingle was brought back on board.


----------



## Lester1583

Ring's 1978 FOTY choice was bad as usual.

The brutal Zamora-Sandoval war shits all over the pathetic slopfest that was Ali-L.Spinks.

Sandoval is rarely ever mentioned but he was a good fighter - well-schooled and fast but too mexican for his own good.

Could've been a title-holder in a weaker era.


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Chong-Pal Park was one of those old-school fighters who never cared much for conditioning and modern nutrition.





Bill Jincock said:


> True enough.A legend of the modern game, ducked by Hagler for years.:yep


Funnily enough his archrival, In-Chul Baek used similar training approach i.e. no training for big fights at all.

In his fight against the eyebrow-raising Fred The Pumper Hutchings Baek is gassed halfway through the fight - he almost walks across the ring unable to keep his hands up properly, all the while Huntchings is in a classic boxer mode trying his best to outbox the korean but Baek somehow manages to counter everything Hutchings throws at him with an incomprehensible late lightweight Duran-like/prime Armstrong-like looking right hand.

Then out of nowhere Baek remembers that he's a korean and hence almost Park's relative and digs some murderous hooks to the body that destroy Hutchings' will to live, a couple more brutal combinations and Baek wins the fight and earns the right to face Hagler.

Hagler, as we all know, was terrified of koreans and congolesians, so he shamelessly ducked the fearsome Baek too.

By the way, having improved greatly after the boxing lesson from Baek, Hutching went on to beat Sean Mannion in the biggest pre-Douglas upset.
Yup, the same Mannion who made McCallum realize he wasn't good enough to be a legitimate threat to middleweights.

Those were the days.


----------



## Bill Jincock

:lol:

Baek was an unskilled legend.

Who do you prefer between Chong-Pal Park and Chan-Hee, lester?


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Who do you prefer between Chong-Pal Park and Chan-Hee, lester?


Personally, I prefer to watch Chong-Pal.

But Chan-Hee was the better of the two.

They are somewhat similar, aren't they?

Both not the most durable guys, both susceptible to pressure from strong, hard-punching rough-type of opponents, both mentally unreliable (but in a different way, in my opinion), both good technically.

Chong-Pal was stronger and a bigger puncher and I'd say he was mentally the tougher of the two - big punchers bothered him but he was more like an early Wlad - nervous and couldn't control/pace himself properly but he didn't quit, while Chan-Hee had that Judah-quitterness in him - the inferior Oguma bullied him and made him submit mentally.

Chong-Pal was a pretty skilled fighter (but somewhat sloppy sometimes) - offensively especially.

But Chan-Hee was a fragile technical beast (and faster than Chong) - almost impossible to outbox cleanly - that Cunto win easily rivals the better known epicness of Kalambay-MacCallum 1.
He beat Espadas who was a flyweight version of Olivares like he was nothing.

Small tractor, Ohba, Yuri, Hanagata - who could outbox Chan-Hee in a strict boxing match?

I don't think Chan-Hee's chin was that bad, by the way - his conditioning and dedication issues are what made it look worse than it was in reality.
Chan-Hee with Chionoi's balls would have been an unstoppable Kalule-esque monster.


----------



## Michael

Lester1583 said:


> Funnily enough his archrival, In-Chul Baek used similar training approach i.e. no training for big fights at all.
> 
> In his fight against the eyebrow-raising Fred The Pumper Hutchings Baek is gassed halfway through the fight - he almost walks across the ring unable to keep his hands up properly, all the while Huntchings is in a classic boxer mode trying his best to outbox the korean but Baek somehow manages to counter everything Hutchings throws at him with an incomprehensible late lightweight Duran-like/prime Armstrong-like looking right hand.
> 
> Then out of nowhere Baek remembers that he's a korean and hence almost Park's relative and digs some murderous hooks to the body that destroy Hutchings' will to live, a couple more brutal combinations and Baek wins the fight and earns the right to face Hagler.
> 
> Hagler, as we all know, was terrified of koreans and congolesians, so he shamelessly ducked the fearsome Baek too.
> 
> By the way, having improved greatly after the boxing lesson from Baek, Hutching went on to beat Sean Mannion in the biggest pre-Douglas upset.
> Yup, the same Mannion who made McCallum realize he wasn't good enough to be a legitimate threat to middleweights.
> 
> Those were the days.


You ever see In-Chul Baek's fight with Sean Mannion Lester? Was a SD loss for Baek and would like to know how it really went.


----------



## Lester1583

Michael said:


> In-Chul Baek's fight with Sean Mannion. would like to know how it really went.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> unskilled legend.


The 80's were the golden era of the second-tier light middles - Baek, Chong-Pal, Hwang, inconsistent but dangerous Drayton, hard-punching Skouma, HoF Rosi, mustached warrior Minchillo, slickster Santos, Machine Gun Braxton (the Jeff Nelson right hand KO eclipsed Duran-Thomas), Kronk Thomas (beat Sumbu!), Aquino, Hilton, Acaries, Ayala.

The Korean Trio alone makes that era untouchable.

JC Vasquez tried his best to keep the fire burning in the 90's but he was alone, sad and lonely.

The monstrous shitfest that was Mosley-Oscar 2 marked the beginning of the end for what once was the most prestigious division for lazy underachievers.

Oscar-Floyd was a death blow to the division from which it never recovered - it has been a pathetic wasteland ever since.


----------



## Lester1583

That Jeff Nelson KO is so good it needs to be posted:





There were rumours floating that one spectator suffered a minor stroke during the fight.

It was later revealed that the spectators name was Duran and it wasn't a stroke - he just shit his pants.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> The 80's were the golden era of the second-tier light middles - Baek, Chong-Pal, Hwang, inconsistent but dangerous Drayton, hard-punching Skouma, HoF Rosi, mustached warrior Minchillo, slickster Santos, Machine Gun Braxton (the Jeff Nelson right hand KO eclipsed Duran-Thomas), Kronk Thomas (beat Sumbu!), Aquino, Hilton, Acaries, Ayala.
> 
> The Korean Trio alone makes that era untouchable.
> 
> JC Vasquez tried his best to keep the fire burning in the 90's but he was alone, sad and lonely.
> 
> The monstrous shitfest that was Mosley-Oscar 2 marked the beginning of the end for what once was the most prestigious division for lazy underachievers.
> 
> Oscar-Floyd was a death blow to the division from which it never recovered - it has been a pathetic wasteland ever since.


Chong-Pal was more a middle/super-middle right?


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Chong-Pal was more a middle/super-middle right?


My bad.

I kinda always thought he began his career as a light middle.

Probably cuz he lost to the former light middle Baek who beat Hwang at light middle.
And both Baek and Chong-Pal looked out of shape, blown-up fighters in their super middle reincarnations.
Hwang himself was a welter most of his career.
Only Baek was a natural light middle.

They were basically Ali-Frazier-Foreman of the 80's.
Only more skillful.

While we're at it, where did all the great koreans go?


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> My bad.
> 
> I kinda always thought he began his career as a light middle.
> 
> Probably cuz he lost to the former light middle Baek who beat Hwang at light middle.
> And both Baek and Chong-Pal looked out of shape, blown-up fighters in their super middle reincarnations.
> Hwang himself was a welter most of his career.
> Only Baek was a natural light middle.
> 
> They were basically Ali-Frazier-Foreman of the 80's.
> Only more skillful.
> 
> While we're at it, where did all the great koreans go?


No funding for their amateurs any more. They're into MMA instead.


----------



## Lester1583

I've just watched Ishimatsu - A.Pineda 1.

I don't know why I did it.

Was is cuz it was notoriously controversial?
No.

Was is cuz I'm a fan of Guts' sloppy offense?
No.

Was is it cuz Pineda lost to Danny Lopez in a battle of undefeated prospects and I couldn't find that fight?
Possibly.

Oh well.

Let my wasted hour be a valuable lesson to you all - don't ever watch Ishimatsu if you can watch Sixto Alvarez getting robbed against the tough Rosi in what was one of the best obscure displays of defensive prowess.


----------



## Axe Murderer

Ishimatsu - Pineda its actually a pretty good fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Axe Murderer said:


> Ishimatsu - Pineda its actually a pretty good fight.


It wasn't that bad, true.

I just hate Ishimatsu for El Gato fights.


----------



## Lester1583

As much as I wanted Ratanachai Sor Vorapin - Danny Romero to be a robbery, it wasn't.

It wasn't even controversial - the only controversial thing about it were the official scorecards.

Fat Danny made Rat look like Whitaker with power (i.e. Judah).

Sluggish and sloppy Romero in no way reminded the explosive fighter who was tearing through the star-filled flyweight division of the early 90's.

Saucedo, Tejedor, Sibali, Lonon - I could go on forever. 

No wonder Danny was already shot to bits when the much bigger, fresher Tapia barely squeaked past him.

Sad, sad fight.


----------



## Lester1583

> Question: Your fellow citizens wanted to rename the town in which you were born after you?
> 
> Yuri Arbachakov: I was against it. They are proud of me. That's more than enough for me.


----------



## Michael

Im going to watch that Baek Mannion fight you posted a while ago tonight Lester. I really like Sean Mannion, the word tough doesn't do the man justice. And no one outside of his own area really knows much about him over here. Proper Connemara fighting man and as hard as the stone around Rosmuc


----------



## Lester1583

Michael said:


> Im going to watch that Baek Mannion fight you posted a while ago tonight Lester. I really like Sean Mannion, the word tough doesn't do the man justice. And no one outside of his own area really knows much about him over here. Proper Connemara fighting man and as hard as the stone around Rosmuc


Mannion was a tough contender, no doubt.

Even made McCallum look somewhat ordinary despite losing every round.

He beat Baek - he weathered the storm in the early rounds and the Korean Slickster gassed in the second half of the fight as usual.


----------



## RDJ

Watching a few McGirt fights, inspired by another thread. Pompey, Bramble and now the second Warren fight. He doesn't get enough recognition, great fighter.


----------



## salsanchezfan

RDJ said:


> Watching a few McGirt fights, inspired by another thread. Pompey, Bramble and now the second Warren fight. He doesn't get enough recognition, great fighter.


When his left arm was perceived to be healthy, he was terrific. He was so slick, so polished against Brown. Brown had to melt down quite a bit for that fight, almost to Duran-like levels (I think he said after the fight he started training at 176), but that shouldn't detract from McGirt's effort. Very well-schooled fighter.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester has done brilliant work here.


----------



## RDJ

salsanchezfan said:


> When his left arm was perceived to be healthy, he was terrific. He was so slick, so polished against Brown. Brown had to melt down quite a bit for that fight, almost to Duran-like levels (I think he said after the fight he started training at 176), but that shouldn't detract from McGirt's effort. Very well-schooled fighter.


The fight against Brown was a master class, great fight may rewatch later on.


----------



## RDJ

Watching the second fight between Frankie Duarte and Alberto Davila right now. Highly entertaining fight so far.


----------



## RDJ

Rudy Koopmans vs. Alex Blanchard. Koopmans is from the same town as me (Leeuwarden, Netherlands), one of the few Dutch boxers who got anywhere (thanks to kickboxing being more popular). He was in the audience at a few of my amateur fights which I thought was kinda cool, him still keeping up with the local scene.


----------



## Lester1583

Is it a good idea to keep Chucho Castillo on the ropes and put a pressure on him?

It's a brilliant idea if you want to get yourself knocked out, says Ernie Cruz.


----------



## Lester1583

If only Roy Jones was half as textbook as the elegant Edward Rackley.

If only.


----------



## Lester1583

Holmes - Roy Williams.

Holmes with his patented jabs, very good handspeed, awkward right hands to the body and weird-looking body carefully outboxing a menacing-looking but sleepwalking Tiger Williams.

Funnily enough, in those rare instances when Williams decided to throw some jabs, he was as effective with them as Larry.

He did look like a potentially dangerous fighter (like a failed Guinn-Liston experiment) but everything about his attitude screamed of a sparring partner mentality.
Willams awoke in the last round but it was too little too late

A rather dull, very one-paced fight.

Descriptions of this fight and Williams were much more interesting than the fight itself.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> If only Roy Jones was half as textbook as the elegant Edward Rackley.
> 
> If only.


Eddie was a true innovator, that was a different variation of the peek a boo style. Cedric Rose was all wrong for him, a pin point elite counter puncher that dude, you know styles make fights and all that....


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Holmes - Roy Williams.
> 
> Holmes with his patented jabs, very good handspeed, awkward right hands to the body and weird-looking body carefully outboxing a menacing-looking but sleepwalking Tiger Williams.
> 
> Funnily enough, in those rare instances when Williams decided to throw some jabs, he was as effective with them as Larry.
> 
> He did look like a potentially dangerous fighter (like a failed Guinn-Liston experiment) but everything about his attitude screamed of a sparring partner mentality.
> Willams awoke in the last round but it was too little too late
> 
> A rather dull, very one-paced fight.
> 
> Descriptions of this fight and Williams were much more interesting than the fight itself.


Just watched this yesterday. The jabbing was excellent. Sadly the rest of the fight was not. Good to see holmes go to the body when Williams was blocking and parrying, a lesson for youths out there.


----------



## Michael

Watched Edwin Rosario vs Howard Davis Jr.

Quite a decent fight, Rosario comes out of the trap early, puts the pressure on Davis from the opening bell and ends up putting him down heavily in the second. He takes a few of the earlier rounds, and gets a brutal body attack going and then falls off as Davis starts to regroup and gets back to his boxing, using his quick hands, and excellent head/lateral movement to nullify Rosario's work. There's about an 8 round lull from Rosario where he does absolutely nothing and Davis just takes rounds on workrate alone. Rosario finally wakes up in the championship rounds, chases after Davis and starts nailing him with great bodyshots again in what was a great last couple of rounds.. The 12th round basically wins the fight for Rosario, and just as Davis is staging a late round rally that would have won him the round, Rosario catches him with a hook in between a flurry and puts him down heavy again. Davis gets up with less than 10 seconds left and he doesnt have to take another punch, which is lucky for him, because Rosario would have stopped him with another 30 seconds on the clock

I had it a 113-113 draw, though Davis Jr was probably the better man overall. I hate it when champions go to sleep and do just enough to win just because they are in their backyard, so it was pretty shit to see Rosario get the decision. 

But yeah enjoyable fight, Rosario was nothing if not a thunderous puncher, every shot he threw was with bad intentions, and every time David feel asleep he paid for him. Rosario had a pretty good jab and nice defensive skills at times to, but he seems like the classic stalking puncher who falls in love with his power type guy. Davis had brilliant silky smooth skills, some of the head and lateral movement he used in this fight was a thing of beauty, but it's just a pity he couldn't crack an egg with a sledgehammer, because on boxing ability alone he was true world class. He'd probably be the light-weight No 1 in today's divisions truth be told, could only see Terence Crawford beating him.


----------



## salsanchezfan

Michael said:


> Watched Edwin Rosario vs Howard Davis Jr.
> 
> Quite a decent fight, Rosario comes out of the trap early, puts the pressure on Davis from the opening bell and ends up putting him down heavily in the second. He takes a few of the earlier rounds, and gets a brutal body attack going and then falls off as Davis starts to regroup and gets back to his boxing, using his quick hands, and excellent head/lateral movement to nullify Rosario's work. There's about an 8 round lull from Rosario where he does absolutely nothing and Davis just takes rounds on workrate alone. Rosario finally wakes up in the championship rounds, chases after Davis and starts nailing him with great bodyshots again in what was a great last couple of rounds.. The 12th round basically wins the fight for Rosario, and just as Davis is staging a late round rally that would have won him the round, Rosario catches him with a hook in between a flurry and puts him down heavy again. Davis gets up with less than 10 seconds left and he doesnt have to take another punch, which is lucky for him, because Rosario would have stopped him with another 30 seconds on the clock
> 
> I had it a 113-113 draw, though Davis Jr was probably the better man overall. I hate it when champions go to sleep and do just enough to win just because they are in their backyard, so it was pretty shit to see Rosario get the decision.
> 
> But yeah enjoyable fight, Rosario was nothing if not a thunderous puncher, every shot he threw was with bad intentions, and every time David feel asleep he paid for him. Rosario had a pretty good jab and nice defensive skills at times to, but he seems like the classic stalking puncher who falls in love with his power type guy. Davis had brilliant silky smooth skills, some of the head and lateral movement he used in this fight was a thing of beauty, but it's just a pity he couldn't crack an egg with a sledgehammer, because on boxing ability alone he was true world class. He'd probably be the light-weight No 1 in today's divisions truth be told, could only see Terence Crawford beating him.


I thought Davis' right hand in the third when Rosario squared himself up essentially took the Puerto Rican out of the fight for a few rounds. He had painfully bad recuperative powers.


----------



## Michael

salsanchezfan said:


> I thought Davis' right hand in the third when Rosario squared himself up essentially took the Puerto Rican out of the fight for a few rounds. He had painfully bad recuperative powers.


Just shows how poor Rosario's chin is really, if Davis could buckle you like that, there's something definitely amiss int he old whiskers department.


----------



## salsanchezfan

Michael said:


> Just shows how poor Rosario's chin is really, if Davis could buckle you like that, there's something definitely amiss int he old whiskers department.


Eh; I don't know about that really...........I mean, even if Davis was a weak puncher (and he was), if you square up like that and let a guy ball up his fist and whack you flush in the face, you're going to feel it. Anyone would.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> legend


Speaking of which, you know what happened to the only man who dared to question Brian Mitchell's mustachesnessness?

Mitchell beat him.
And then beat him again.
And again.

Untill he eventually killed the poor guy.

On a more serious note, have watched Mitchell - Jacob "Dancing Shoes" Morake 4 today.

Morake was a classic outboxer - jab, movement, no power, tall - think Algieri with balls.

Mitchell, as we all know, is a perfect example of good fundamentals compensating for a lack of physical attributes.

Mitchell dropped Morake in the 3rd round with a perfectly timed clean counter right hand that looked as devastating as Maskaev-Rahman nuclear missile.

Luckily for Morake, Mitchell was kalule-fisted, so he recovered instantly despite looking almost completely gone just seconds before.

Mitchell was winning the fight but it was pretty close and competitive till the last two rounds.

Mitchell got cut by an accidental heabutt in one of later rounds but it was Dancing Shoes who was wilting under Mitchell's methodical pressure.

The tragic KO looked like a classic case of exhaustion, accumulation of seemingly not that dangerous punishment and few good knockdowns.

All in all, not the most exciting fight but a good fight for showcasing Mitchell's strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## salsanchezfan

Just finished up Jose Luis Ramirez-Terrence Alli. Very nice little tussle.

Alli was always strange to watch; he looked like he might be able to box, but never seemed to give in to that spirit, and always wanted to outwork you, or occasionally try to outpunch you, which was ill-advised since he was devoid of power. He'd hop around his opponent making you think he was going to box, but then he'd lose that train of thought and jump in and start throwing lots of quick shoeshine-type things meant to be flashy and catch attention.

In this fight, he started off trying to match the stronger-harder hitting Ramirez punch for punch and it made for some great exchanges, but it was a bad fight plan. Then in the fifth, Alli started circling and trying to box, and it worked for a bit. Ramirez had some trouble cutting off the ring and one can't help but wonder what would have happened had Alli opened the fight that way.

As it was, Ramirez's constant pressure took a little out of Alli, who gave in again and started to meet Ramirez in the trenches. Round nine was exceptional, the whole round was one long exchange, very nice indeed. It was just what Ramirez wanted.

The last three rounds were mostly Ramirez, and he almost put Alli down and out in the twelfth. A well deserved decision victory for the workmanlike Ramirez. I had it for him 7-4-1.


----------



## Lester1583

Having rewatched Sugar Ramos, gotta say, he looked no less impressive at feather than the Three Amigos.

Not one of them ever looked as powerful and physically imposing at the weight as Ultiminio that destroyed Seki.


----------



## Lester1583

Giardello, Ellis, Mims, Boyd, the enigmatic Little, arguably Carter and Danny Garcia.

- Not bad for just a contender.


----------



## doug.ie

lionel rose vs chucho castillo 

great fight with great blow by blow commentary from our own flea's superb youtube channel 

theres a big riot after this one.


----------



## Lester1583

Tszyu's best training results:

Bench Press - 275 pounds
Push ups - 270
Pull ups - 55
Rope jumping - 1h 45min
Tszyu's special routine (5min rope jumping+100 push ups, repeat) - 1111 push ups, 50 min rope jumping approximately in 1 hour.


----------



## doug.ie

been watching some Fighting Harada after taking some advice from resident expert @Flea on what to watch.

this blew my socks off...


----------



## Jdempsey85

:!::ibutt:ibutt:ibutt:ibutt:ibutt:ibutt:ibutt:ibutt WAR


----------



## Theron

doug.ie said:


> been watching some Fighting Harada after taking some advice from resident expert @Flea on what to watch.
> 
> this blew my socks off...


Oh man, been watching some Harada the last few days as well, guys a little fiery ball of hell, I love the way he uses his jab when coming in, great to watch

Aoki fight was awesome, especially the final knockdown, that right hand threw him :bbb


----------



## Lester1583

Tyson-Spinks, Louis-Schmeling, Griffith-Carter, McLarnin-Corbett III.

What do these fights have in common?


They all pale in comparison to the logic-defying Watanabe's KO victory over Koji "Phantasm" Kobayashi.


----------



## RDJ

Wilfredo Gomez vs. Juan Laporte. Pretty one sided so far but fun nonetheless.


----------



## RDJ

Next up is Miguel Lora vs. Alberto Davila, both fights. Here's the second one.


----------



## RDJ

Last fight for the day. Marco Antonio Barrera vs. Orlando Fernandez. A beating. For some reason I never really got into MAB so I have some catching up to do.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Having rewatched Sugar Ramos, gotta say, he looked no less impressive at feather than the Three Amigos.
> 
> Not one of them ever looked as powerful and physically imposing at the weight as Ultiminio that destroyed Seki.


You should see him against Floyd Robertson. He looks rough.



Lester1583 said:


> Giardello, Ellis, Mims, Boyd, the enigmatic Little, arguably Carter and Danny Garcia.
> 
> - Not bad for just a contender.


Juvenilia really, first proper thing I wrote...so excuse the terrible writing http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/blog/?p=11106


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> You should see him against Floyd Robertson. He looks rough.


Weight problems.



Flea Man said:


> Juvenilia really, first proper thing I wrote...so excuse the terrible writing http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/blog/?p=11106


It's not bad at all.

Although you forgot to mention Benton's last hurrah - the Juarez de Lima win. The tricky Lima was coming off a win over an undefeated Bouttier (who almost knocked out Monzon) and also beat Rondon, Briscoe, Max Cohen, Oliveira and Ramon La Cruz.

I think @Vic knows more about him.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Weight problems.
> 
> It's not bad at all.
> 
> Although you forgot to mention Benton's last hurrah - the Juarez de Lima win. The tricky Lima was coming off a win over an undefeated Bouttier (who almost knocked out Monzon) and also beat Rondon, Briscoe, Max Cohen, Oliveira and Ramon La Cruz.
> 
> I think @Vic knows more about him.


I'm gonna revise it soon and put it on BLH with videos and that.


----------



## doug.ie

short one earlier....revising ted kid lewis v carpentier. ..that ref was virtually standing in between them for a minute holding their arms while they tried to hit each other....messy...hard to know if you could call the ko a sucker punch.


----------



## RDJ

Carlos Monzon vs. Jose Napoles.


----------



## Lester1583

100-80 is how I scored Arguello-Fernandez 1.

In favor of Arguello.

The shorter the distance was the better Arguello looked.


----------



## Lester1583

rayrobinson333 has uploaded a rare fight of a *prime* Chang. 
Versus a tough Filipino journeyman Rodrigo Saonoy.

Dat double elbow by Chang in the 6th round:


----------



## Brownies

I'm watching Winky Wright vs Harry Simons, a fight I have never seen. 



 Wright was still green, but it looks like a really good clash of style. Man, Simons was leaping on those left hook like a young Patterson haha.


----------



## Brownies

Lester1583 said:


> rayrobinson333 has uploaded a rare fight of a *prime* Chang.
> Versus a tough Filipino journeyman Rodrigo Saonoy.


Thanks, I haven't looked at his channel for months.


----------



## Jdempsey85

The heat Verderosa vs Nico Perez

If the fight is declared a draw they will box off in 13th round!!

The heat won in 6,has there ever been a fight where they box off in the 13th?


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Weight problems.
> 
> It's not bad at all.
> 
> Although you forgot to mention Benton's last hurrah - the Juarez de Lima win. The tricky Lima was coming off a win over an undefeated Bouttier (who almost knocked out Monzon) and also beat Rondon, Briscoe, Max Cohen, Oliveira and Ramon La Cruz.
> 
> I think @Vic knows more about him.


He was tough, one of those guys that took any fight anywhere, very known in his day. There is a story that while he was in Denmark (I imagine that it was his second fight with Tom Bogs), thatÂ´s what I heard, a criminal group from there threatned his life and said that he had to lose the fight otherwise he would have some trouble with them.


----------



## Theron

Holman Williams in the background there

Never noticed before, 9:25

Must of fought Jose Basora on the same card.
Cocoa Kid before Basora fight then Cocoa Kid 10 days later, then Burley a week later then Cocoa 4 days later again. These guys were something else

Anybody know if the Holman Basora fight was filmed?


----------



## doug.ie

been watching a real skillful operator, miguel canto....vs bitulio gonzales......real treat watching him, i'm actually glad he didnt have more power.


----------



## Michael

Had a look at a 20 years old Zab Judah vs Micky Ward from 98. 

Beautiful performance from Judah it has to be said. Ward would be a nightmare test for any young inexperienced fighter and Judah cam through it with flying colours an looked good for the most part to. Great display of combination punching to both the head and body and with either hand, good lateral movement and for the most part Judah dictated the pace and tempo. The only rough patch for Zab was in the 8th round with Ward nearly doubles him over with a few of his patented hooks but even then Judah regroups and storms back in the championship rounds to paint Ward with an array of power shots. 

Watching a young Judah lets you appreciate why people were so high on him back in the day. He seemed to have it all and looked potentially an ATG type talent before his mental shortcomings and stylistic flaws became apparent as he took on serious competition. Its all interesting how his style changed slightly over the years. Eventually he became a economical single shot counter-puncher, but here he threw around 900 punches in the fight and was far more aggressive.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Didn't realize Henry Cooper was such a dirty bastard,could have DQ'd 4-5-6 times vs Joe Erskine.






The uploader has kindly put the entire boxers vhs collection on his page


----------



## GPater

Ive been dusting off my collection lately.

Watched Ross vs McLarnin III, absolutly superb fight fought at an amazing pace but the skills on show were unreal. The last 5 rounds are among the best you will ever see.

And Napoles vs Urtina & Pruitt 1 & 2. The only way to describe napoles in his lighter days was a demon


----------



## natonic

Jdempsey85 said:


> The heat Verderosa vs Nico Perez
> 
> If the fight is declared a draw they will box off in 13th round!!
> 
> The heat won in 6,*has there ever been a fight where they box off in the 13th?*


I recall a few of these in the late 80's. The only one I can remember for sure is Ronnie Essett vs Sanderline Williams. It was declared a draw after 12 and they fought a 13th round to determine the winner (Essett).


----------



## doug.ie

Venice Borkhorsor vs Rafael Herrera
@Flea Man has opened me up to so many great fights around bantamweight around this period


----------



## Flea Man

doug.ie said:


> Venice Borkhorsor vs Rafael Herrera
> 
> @Flea Man has opened me up to so many great fights around bantamweight around this period


Great era!


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> rayrobinson333 has uploaded a rare fight of a *prime* Chang.
> Versus a tough Filipino journeyman Rodrigo Saonoy.
> 
> Dat double elbow by Chang in the 6th round:


I've had that for a while...I was under the impression it could never be shared!


----------



## Jdempsey85

natonic said:


> I recall a few of these in the late 80's. The only one I can remember for sure is Ronnie Essett vs Sanderline Williams. It was declared a draw after 12 and they fought a 13th round to determine the winner (Essett).


interesting thanks :good


----------



## Phantom

I watched Floyd Patterson's greatest fight...certainly his greatest career win... most notable to me, besides the ko itself...he nearly beheaded Ingo...was when Floyd truned Ingo aroubd and didn't resort to a cheap "behind the head shot" like Ingo did to him in their first fight....sinply a beautiful fight....with a BEAUTIFUL big left hook that ended affairs.


----------



## Phantom

First of all, I love Wilfred Benitez!! I now he lost this fight to SRL, but if anything, along with the closeness of the fight and how elusive Wilfred was for Leonard, it's that prefight staredown....Benitez is my favorite staredown artist....he's slightly shorter than Ray but he tilis his head back, so he can look down on Leonard....so damned *theatrical*, like it was vs Hearns and Duran....it gets me every time.


----------



## Jdempsey85

Flea Man said:


> I've had that for a while...I was under the impression it could never be shared!


Is there a global cult like the Illuminati just for rare fight films? Is Klompton is the overseer?


----------



## RDJ

Emile Griffith vs. Andy Heilman II. Will watch more fights from the sixties later on.


----------



## Theron

I quite like Sorianos style, fun to watch


----------



## GPater

Watched Hearns vs Duran & Cuevas 

Was actually impressed with Hearns body shots, they instantly made them uncomfortable. Despite blitzing them out early Hearns had a decent plan and went about the execution well.


----------



## RDJ

Doug DeWitt vs. Tony Thornton. Only fight ever that had a round 13? Seemed a bit fishy to be honest.


----------



## doug.ie

ah boys...did i enjoy watching this today...


----------



## doug.ie

RDJ said:


> Doug DeWitt vs. Tony Thornton. Only fight ever that had a round 13? Seemed a bit fishy to be honest.


sanderline williams v ronnie essett ?


----------



## Theron

Nice few minutes of Bratton vs Miceli from Steve Lotts page.




 @Klompton do you have any other Bratton fights that arent up already? the Fusari fight was put up a month or two ago i think, got me wondering if theres anything else


----------



## Phantom

RDJ said:


> Wilfredo Gomez vs. Juan Laporte. Pretty one sided so far but fun nonetheless.


You're right RDJ,...this was fun to watch....and it's one of the few Gomez title fights that I haven't seen before. Somehow....the fight reminded me od Calzaghe-Lacy....lol...(Gomez/Calzaghe???)But it did in how completely lopsided the fight was. What a fighter Gomez was...and he could box as well as punch....and what a chin on LaPorte!!! Anybody else in there with Gomez would have had to be peeled off the canvas...lol,...I enjoyed every minute of it!


----------



## Bill Jincock

I never thought Gomez looked all that impressive against Laporte despite the one sided nature of the fight.He didn't look nearly as sharp as he had been in the late 70s and his legs seemed far from what they used to be.

Laporte choked for some reason and threw about 10 punches a round, basically presenting himself as a punching bag, but on the rare occasions he did open up, Gomez looked vulnerable and unsure imo.maybe it was because he was facing a Puerto Rican living legend and it got to him, but if he had given the kind of busy spirited effort he gave against Chavez, i think this could have been a very different fight for him.As it was his performance was so bad the ref could well have been within his rights to stop it numerous times due to inactivity.


----------



## doug.ie

Theron said:


> Nice few minutes of Bratton vs Miceli from Steve Lotts page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Klompton do you have any other Bratton fights that arent up already? the Fusari fight was put up a month or two ago i think, got me wondering if theres anything else


love the gene fullmer v joe meceli video... and they said fullmer couldnt hit


----------



## Flea Man

Jdempsey85 said:


> Is there a global cult like the Illuminati just for rare fight films? Is Klompton is the overseer?


Nah, it's just those that put substantial amounts of money into collecting.


----------



## RDJ

Flea Man said:


> Nah, it's just those that put substantial amounts of money into collecting.


Just curious... how many fights do you have in your collection? :think


----------



## RDJ

doug.ie said:


> sanderline williams v ronnie essett ?


Just a few posts above mine, hadn't seen it atsch


----------



## Jdempsey85

Flea Man said:


> Nah, it's just those that put substantial amounts of money into collecting.


:good


----------



## Jdempsey85

James Scott vs Eddie Gregory

Intresting fight from rahway penetentiary.Gregory was asked before the fight are you afraid "no ive been inside these places before"what for?"oh just burglary,harrasment&beating up 4 cops"!!

I think eddie took him a bit lightly,Great win for the con


----------



## Phantom

The REAL Sonny Liston vs the REAL Cleveland Wiliams








I'm still impressed at how good Coetzee looked in ths fight...


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> His uppercut to the balls was a thing of beauty.


Almost as good as Robinson's right hand to the kidney.

Picture perfect punch.


----------



## Theron

Watched Kitten Hayward vs Stable, weird that Hayward didnt use his size as much especially when he was fighting on the inside, he literally could throw Stable around when he used his strength. Found it strange he didnt use it to his advantage and try bully more.


----------



## thistle1

has anybody got or has seen film footage of two of Scotland's greatest fighters, middleweights Bert Gilroy or John Cowboy McCormack?

thanks in advance.


----------



## Lester1583

Harold "Greb" Brazier - cult hero - the Buck "Tombstone" Smith trilogy is rated among the best and the goriest of all time.
Yakuza Enforcer Hiranaka - prime, undefeated - future mifune champion.
Jose Luis Ramirez - conqueror of Whitaker, destroyer of Rosario and father of Arguello - roided-up version of JL Castillo (the guy who took Floyd's 0, balls and PEDs).
Patrizio Oliva - legendary Thief of Moscow - olympic champion, Marciano's son's idol, 48-0 (all by SD), with a massive upset win over Duran (Laing=Duran).
Sang-Ho Lee - korean.
Frankie Randall - sadistic Surgeon of demise - penetrator of Chavez - career cut short by Masao Oba's more talented younger brother, Oba Car.
Eder Gonzalez - also known as El Protegido - one of the dirtiest, evilest punchers ever - always travelled with his own pet referee.

What do all these fighters have in common?

They all had to bow down before LÃ¡tigo.

- A victory is twice itself when the achiever wins fairly. Right, my man?
- Totally.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Coggi was a titan of the sport.Shamelessly ducked by Chavez.

It gets tougher every year to decide who was greater and did more for boxing between him and Gianfranco Rosi.


----------



## Michael

Lester1583 said:


> Harold "Greb" Brazier - cult hero - the Buck "Tombstone" Smith trilogy is rated among the best and the goriest of all time.
> Yakuza Enforcer Hiranaka - prime, undefeated - future mifune champion.
> Jose Luis Ramirez - conqueror of Whitaker, destroyer of Rosario and father of Arguello - roided-up version of JL Castillo (the guy who took Floyd's 0, balls and PEDs).
> Patrizio Oliva - legendary Thief of Moscow - olympic champion, Marciano's son's idol, 48-0 (all by SD), with a massive upset win over Duran (Laing=Duran).
> Sang-Ho Lee - korean.
> Frankie Randall - sadistic Surgeon of demise - penetrator of Chavez - career cut short by Masao Oba's more talented younger brother, Oba Car.
> Eder Gonzalez - also known as El Protegido - one of the dirtiest, evilest punchers ever - always travelled with his own pet referee.
> 
> What do all these fighters have in common?
> 
> They all had to bow down before LÃ¡tigo.
> 
> - A victory is twice itself when the achiever wins fairly. Right, my man?
> - Totally.


You're an absolute mad man lester:lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> It gets tougher every year to decide who was greater and did more for boxing between him and Gianfranco Rosi.


The Aquino fight is a tie-breaker for me.

I tend to rate fighters who beat Lupe very low.

But then again we can't just ignore those Van Horn wins.

We simply can't.


----------



## Lester1583

Aquino's offense is an interesting one - sloppy & wide but diverse and combinational.


----------



## Lester1583

Is Dave Charnley the second most underrated British fighter after Brian Curvis?

God damn you, Griffith.

God damn you to hell.


----------



## Klompton

[SUB][/SUB]


Lester1583 said:


> Is Dave Charnley the second most underrated British fighter after Brian Curvis?
> 
> God damn you, Griffith.
> 
> God damn you to hell.


Ive always wanted to see Griffith-Charnley


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> I'm from Tbilisi, Peru


Is it fair to say that Johnny Persol was the less lucky Lionel Rose of light heavyweights?

Matches up well with non-punchers, always in danger of getting destroyed by high-quality punchers.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Light heavyweight Errol Christie:yep


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Light heavyweight Errol Christie:yep


Bad example.

Christie ran into prime Kaylor who was fresh off his loss to Sibson (a loss to Sibson improves a fighter, it's a well-known fact).

This alone would have been enough to finish anybody.

Add to that Christie used to spar with the mustacheod fat Duran - poor guy never had a chance.

- I was doomed from the beginning.
- I gotta poo.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Punchers, seem to come and go, yeah.
> Small-tractor flies from coast to coast
> 
> Knowing many, loving none,
> Bearing sorrow havin' fun,
> But back home I'll always run
> To sweet Kalule... mmm...


Sometimes when I'm all alone and naked in the night, alone with my thoughts, I ask myself:

Did McCallum benefit from fighting at a god-forsaken weight?
What if he knew Hagler would destroy him and purposely waited for him to fade into italian?
Is the only reason McCallum remembered so fondly that he fought in a Bobby Czyz era?

And then I start to fall into a dream - and I dream of a perfect light middleweight - hard-punching yet not aggressive, skilled yet not from Peru, swift moving yet not gay, mysterious and obscure.

And then I wake up in a cold sweat - screaming and smiling.

Here's the only footage of a prime Elisha Obed (also known as the Kaleidoscope of Bahamas):





That's the closest comparison to Obed's jab:








Deadly.


----------



## Bill Jincock

I thought that looked familiar...then i realised it's the Allman Bros:lol:

Obed looks quite like Chitalada there.

Matches up quite well with this masterpiece of 70s youtube boxing footage






Finnegan being basically proof that with a granite chin, Kalule would have defeated Hagler.


----------



## SJS20

Watched Trinidad vs Reid for the first time, it's a real shame he's ended up like he has.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Matches up quite well with this masterpiece of 70s youtube boxing footage
> Finnegan being basically proof that with a granite chin, Kalule would have defeated Hagler.


Oh-hoh-hoh-hoah, Oh-hoh-hoh-hoah.

As I was saying, Hagler was Kalule.

Only not the real Kalule - more like those creepy japanese robots that look like humans - advanced, more durable but stiff, mechanical and talk funny.

It's kinda sad that Finnegan's wins over Hagler shattered Marvin's confidence forever and the rest of his career turned out to be one big disappointment.

He was a talented fighter.
If only for a year.

Oh-hoh-hoh-hoh, ha, Oh-hoh-hoh-hoh, ha.


----------



## Leftsmash

Jones Jr vs Malinga


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> chin


Am I the only one who thinks that Curry's win over Rosi is both surprising and underrated?

Very unusual fight location, by the way.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Yeah, you would think Rosi would be the sort of tricky, difficult to figure out fighter that would have given a Curry that was rapidly losing his legs\balance fits.

I'd need to watch the fight again tbh though.

Rosi did seem a bit vulnerable to very good handspeed though, and Curry could still fire of accurate, quick single punches.Honeyghan crushed Rosi with his quick right-hand punching, though that was a pretty unexpected result too.

Curry's win over Aquino was a good post-McCallum result as well.Aquino was a big puncher with good offensive ability, though he was reputed to be a poor trainer by this point in his career and certainly could look inconsistent from round to round never mind fight to fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Yeah, you would think Rosi would be the sort of tricky, difficult to figure out fighter that would have given a Curry that was rapidly losing his legs\balance fits.


Rosi actually hurt Curry in the first round.

Rosi fought badly, in my opinion - Ragamaffin at least threw that right hand outta nowhere and cought him by surprise - but against Curry he kept lunging in with his sloppy punches, open, almost inviting Curry to counter him.

Damaged Curry had that Jones aura of fragility around him - and the same issues - weak durability, penetratable defense and deteriorated legs.
I don't know who's decline is worse - Curry was much younger but at least was still capable of beating some quality fighters - Jones just turned into a useless carcass in a matter of couple of fights.

The fight is on youtube, by the way - with Sumbu trash-talking madly in the pre-fight build-up.



Bill Jincock said:


> Curry's win over Aquino was a good post-McCallum result as well.Aquino was a big puncher with good offensive ability, though he was reputed to be a poor trainer by this point in his career and certainly could look inconsistent from round to round never mind fight to fight.


Finished Evander Santos' career too.

True about Aquino - looks hard & dangerous in flashes and the next moment looks soft & listless.

Curry actually looked ok against Aquino - beat him through superior technique, handspeed and underrated inside game - resembling his former self of the McCrory fights.
With every passing fight Curry aged rapidly - it's like the one that beat Aquino was 30 years old, Rosi - 37 years old and the Nunn one - 65.

Pity he had nothing left by the time Norris got to him.
Terrible Terry loved his midgets.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Somewhere after midnight
> In my wildest fantasy
> Somewhere just beyond my reach
> There's someone reaching back for me
> 
> Isn't there a dirty southpaw with a big heart?
> Late at night I toss and I turn
> And I dream of what I need
> 
> I need Oguma, I'm holding out for Oguma
> 'Til the end of the night
> He's gotta be strong
> And he's gotta be fast
> And he's gotta be fresh from the fight!!!


Is Engels Pedroza the missing link between Colin Jones and JL Lopez?

Has Mayweather eclipsed Oscar as the shittiest ppv-superstar of all time?

Has Carbajal's hair got to do anything with Tony Baltazar's shocking loss to to Bolillo Gonzalez?

Is it possible that Greb's fight footage is even more ridiculous than his sparring?

Is Sweet C McMillan responsible for Pep's declined popularity?

Is @Flea Man's obsession with Thai fighters a cryptic sign of him wanting to become a ladyboy?

Is KÃ¶nig Artur the smoothest lightweight since El Gato?

Do we all need to stop overrating Manuel Alvarez?

Had Orlando Zulueta been glass-chinned and with only one noteworthy win, would he have been regarded as highly as Rigo?

Has Johnny Nelson single-handedly ended any cruiserweight thread that ever existed or will exist?

Is it racist to say that Veeraphol's right hand would sahaprom'd Austin's black ass till Tim would love him?

Is Francis-Wharton the hypothetical Pac-Floyd of the 90's?

Does Froch's nose grow everytime Lewis says "definitely"?

These are rhetorical questions.


----------



## Lester1583

The Godoy 2 performance is one Louis' most interesting ones.

It was his R. Alvarez moment and for a strict textbook fighter who prefers to fight at his own range/control the tempo of the fight/best punch is a straight right hand he looked surprisingly good on the inside against a crowding, awkward fighter - knew how to position himself well, those uppercut combinations off the back foot are up there with the best of them and generally didn't look uncomfortable at all.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> - I conquered Ho Joo's ass first.


Been rewatching some Ezz lately.

He's one of the most disappointing and impressive great fighters simultaneously.
At times he throws punches so Monzonesque slow, it would make old Foreman blush and then outta nowhere he blasts his opponents with lightning quick single punches.
Some of his leaping left hooks looked borderline ridiculous/amateurish even - so overexaggareted, slow and unbalanced they were.
And then some one-two combos looked picture perfect, laser-like precise and amazingly quick.
Aided by outstanding timing.

Wouldn't call his defensive reflexes special though.

He always reminded me of a less durable but a more technical and cerebral Holyfield's predecessor - even his career trajectory - beastly/aggressive at lower weights, past prime/somewhat lackluster by the time he got to big fights.

That counter right - small step/lean a bit backwards, leave yourself slightly open to lure your opponent in/make him reach - then a quick counter over a lazy jab - close to what Holydield liked to do.

In the Oma fight his balance is atrocious - these kind of misses and falling off balance stuff you usually see from a shot fighter.

He's filmed career is just one big story of slow deterioration.

With each passing fight his footwork looked more and more ponderous and speed less and less impressive.

The only footage where he looks light on his feet is the sped-up Marshall fight. (The Bivins footage is too inconclusive).
The Walcott 1 and Valentino fights too, maybe.

Against Louis he gave me an impression of a fighter nearing the end of his physical prime - already at the first stages of decline.
I'm not a fan of past-prime performances usually but the Louis fight is actually pretty good.
Louis was at the late 90's Holyfield stage of his career - legs are gone, speed has diminished but still capable of compensating some of his limitations with experience and willpower - not a great H2H-fighter anymore but still capable of beating good fighters and give tough fights to the greater ones.

For such an excellently schooled/classic punching technique fighter Charles' uppercuts in this fight are pretty unusual - he throws them almost straight upwards, no forward movement - can't really recall a fighter who threw similar uppercuts.

In almost all of his fights Charles looks like a fighter who knows how to move extremely quick and who used to be extremely quick and agile but his body is not being able to produce this sort of stuff anymore.
Like at times his brain works faster than his body can react.
Again kinda like late 90's Holyfield.

That Jersey Joe KO I'd say marked the end of his heavyweight prime (which wasn't strictly speaking Ezz's true prime).

@Powerpuncher
@Flea Man
@LittleRed


----------



## LittleRed

I can never see exactly what makes Charles great. I can clearly see what makes him effective; but great? It's maddening really watching Charles because he's laconic but so well schooled such a smart technician but occasionally reckless. But there is his record as deep as anyone in history.

He's the Oscar Robertson of boxing, the Hank Aaron. It kills me.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Been rewatching some Ezz lately.
> 
> He's one of the most disappointing and impressive great fighters simultaneously.
> At times he throws punches so Monzonesque slow, it would make old Foreman blush and then outta nowhere he blasts his opponents with a lightning quick single punches.
> Some of his leaping left hooks looked borderline ridiculous/amateurish even - so overexaggareted, slow and unbalanced they were.
> And then some one-two combos looked picture perfect, laser-like precise and amazingly quick.
> Aided by outstanding timing.
> 
> Wouldn't call his defensive reflexes special though.
> 
> He always reminded me of a less durable but a more technical and cerebral Holyfield's predecessor - even his career trajectory - beastly/aggressive at lower weights, past prime/somewhat lackluster by the time he got to big fights.
> 
> That counter right - small step/lean a bit backwards, leave yourself slightly open to lure your opponent in/make him reach - then a quick counter over a lazy jab - close to what Holydield liked to do.
> 
> In the Oma fight his balance is atrocious - these kind of misses and falling off balance stuff you usually see from a shot fighter.
> 
> He's filmed career is just one big story of slow deterioration.
> 
> With each passing fight his footwork looked more and more ponderous and speed less and less impressive.
> 
> The only footage where he looks light on his feet is the sped-up Marshall fight. (The Bivins footage is too inconclusive).
> The Walcott 1 and Valentino fights too, maybe.
> 
> Against Louis he gave me an impression of a fighter nearing the end of his physical prime - already at the first stages of decline.
> I'm not a fan of past-prime performances usually but the Louis fight is actually pretty good.
> Louis was at the late 90's Holyfield stage of his career - legs are gone, speed has diminished but still capable of compensating some of his limitations with experience and willpower - not a great H2H-fighter anymore but still capable of beating good fighters and give tough fights to the greater ones.
> 
> For such an excellently schooled/classic punching technique fighter Charles' uppercuts in this fight are pretty unusual - he throws them almost straight upwards, no forward movement - can't really recall a fighter who threw similar uppercuts.
> 
> In almost all of his fights Charles looks like a fighter who knows how to move extremely quick and who used to be extremely quick and agile but his body is not being able to produce this sort of stuff anymore.
> Like at times his brain works faster than his body can react.
> Again kinda like late 90's Holyfield.
> 
> That Jersey Joe KO I'd say marked the end of his heavyweight prime (which wasn't strictly speaking Ezz's true prime).
> 
> @*Powerpuncher*
> @*Flea Man*
> @*LittleRed*


I'd go with most of that, at times his short crisp combinations looked like Robinson but Monzon's a good comparison in the sense that he often fights within himself and very relaxed at times and he's a good all rounder. He's not as flashy as Walcott, Burley or Marshall. But he beats these men with either his workrate or through his short crisp punches inside. His short punches mean he's a good infighter so he does well at that range while still being a solid outboxer. His footwork and feints is really key to him dictating exchanges. He's technically pretty sound for the most part I think. His defence really isn't great but he can roll with the punches well enough to survive and fire back, which seems to be his defence. Against Satterfield he looks way too easy to hit but he is still vulnerable in most of his fights, his defence is just far from perfect.

We do have a fair bit of footage of Charles when he was near his prime and I'd expect he was near his best for Joe Louis because of the challenge of it. He's more slippery and calculated against Louis but I still think he's a bit susceptible to the right hand.






30yo Charles v Maxim:






25yo v Marshall






31y v Bivins who looks shocking here






Bivins looks better a year before against Archie


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> He's the Oscar Robertson of boxing, the Hank Aaron. It kills me.


You've only made matters worse, LR.

I've only read about Robertson and I've never watched a baseball game in my life.

The Riddle of Ezz remains unsolved.

- @Bill Jincock @Flea Man, don't duck me!


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Tszyu's best training results:
> 
> Bench Press - 275 pounds
> Push ups - 270
> Pull ups - 55
> Rope jumping - 1h 45min
> Tszyu's special routine (5min rope jumping+100 push ups, repeat) - 1111 push ups, 50 min rope jumping approximately in 1 hour.


I think he did 275 for the C and J also.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> His footwork and feints is really key to him dictating exchanges.


Agree with that - even though I've critisized the physical aspect of his movement, the footwork itself is very sound.

And it's verstatile - he's good at both fighting off the backfoot/on the front foot, controlling the pace with slow gliding/jab-n-move routine, etc.



Powerpuncher said:


> 31y v Bivins who looks shocking here


Yup, nowhere near the supposed ATG-level.

I always had a feeling that many of those fighters fell off a cliff rather dramatically/declined early by modern standards, with Moore being a rare exception - closer to Curry/Jones cases - not necessarily resulting in a string of KO losses, more like at their primes they were much better, physically especially and then the grueling schedule (aided by non-existant medicine) ruined them and left them depleted physically at a younger age.

Burley is only 28 against Oakland Billy and the general consensus on him that he has already begun to decline.

With say Robinson you can see his slow decline, Robinson of the early 50's is still *the* Robinson - even if he was much more imposing physically in the 40's/lost that Jones aura around him.

Bivins, on the other hand, looks straight-up spent.

It's no coincedence modern fighters fight at an advanced age but that's a different topic.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Bivins who looks shocking here


Yup, that's the problem with assessing those wins and comparing them with modern filmed fighters.

"Moore beat Bivins 25 times, Floyd barely scraped past an old Cotto!"

Every fight is different - fight reports can only you give an approximate picture of fighter's conditions.
Never mind the fact that most can't even properly judge active extensively filmed fighters.

Moore's amazing longevity coincided with him fighting lesser fighters, literally outlasting his peers and beating some of them at the end of their primes - yet people rarely question that while every modern win can be torn apart.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> I think he did 275 for the C and J also.


He was a big proponent of weight-training.

Kostya benched more than Kovalev.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Agree with that - even though I've critisized the physical aspect of his movement, the footwork itself is very sound.
> 
> And it's verstatile - he's good at both fighting off the backfoot/on the front foot, controlling the pace with slow gliding/jab-n-move routine, etc.
> 
> Yup, nowhere near the supposed ATG-level.
> 
> I always had a feeling that many of those fighters fell off a cliff rather dramatically/declined early by modern standards, with Moore being a rare exception - closer to Curry/Jones cases - not necessarily resulting in a string of KO losses, more like at their primes they were much better, physically especially and then the grueling schedule (aided by non-existant medicine) ruined them and left them depleted physically at a younger age.
> 
> Burley is only 28 against Oakland Billy and the general consensus on him that he has already begun to decline.
> 
> With say Robinson you can see his slow decline, Robinson of the early 50's is still *the* Robinson - even if he was much more imposing physically in the 40's/lost that Jones aura around him.
> 
> Bivins, on the other hand, looks straight-up spent.
> 
> It's no coincedence modern fighters fight at an advanced age but that's a different topic.


Using your feet to slip punches by cms is a bit of an art form too, if his head movement was on par with his footwork he'd be allot better though.

In any era the guys who don't train with dedication age quickly. I thought there was a possibility Bivins was wearing the wraps in that final Charles bout though. He doesn't look nearly as sharp as a year earlier. Looking at him there it looks hard to believe he ever beat Charles, Moore and Burley.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> I thought there was a possibility Bivins was wearing the wraps in that final Charles bout though. He doesn't look nearly as sharp as a year earlier. Looking at him there it looks hard to believe he ever beat Charles, Moore and Burley.


Isn't that a footage of their fourth fight? The one that took place in 1948?

I don't know if it's true but I think their 3rd fight (1947) is somewhere out there too.
Now that would be interesting to see.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Yup, that's the problem with assessing those wins and comparing them with modern filmed fighters.
> 
> "Moore beat Bivins 25 times, Floyd barely scraped past an old Cotto!"
> *
> Every fight is different - fight reports can only you give an approximate picture of fighter's conditions.
> Never mind the fact that most can't even properly judge active extensively filmed fighters.*
> 
> Moore's amazing longevity coincided with him fighting lesser fighters, literally outlasting his peers and beating some of them at the end of their primes - yet people rarely question that while every modern win can be torn apart.


Newspaper reports are hardly the best sources, reporters may not have a clue about the sport itself or they may just want to be on favourable terms with the promoter or winner. So they could have an agenda or just not have a clue.

Apparently media reporters were evenly split for how they scored Pacquaio-JMM 3 and DLH-Mosley 2, so 'boxing historians' would consider those reasonably fair decisions if they didn't see the fight. Many reporters had Louis winning the first Walcott fight, so therefore despite the fact he couldn't land a punch in the highlights 'it's a fair decision'

In the pre TV days promoters certainly would bribed newspaper reporters to get 'newspaper decisions' and favourable write ups. It makes it hard to judge boxing of this era. And yes I'm shitting on certain writers parades.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Isn't that a footage of their fourth fight? The one that took place in 1948?
> 
> I don't know if it's true but I think their 3rd fight (1947) is somewhere out there too.
> Now that would be interesting to see.


It says 1951 in the title



Lester1583 said:


> Giardello, Ellis, Mims, Boyd, the enigmatic Little, arguably Carter and Danny Garcia.
> 
> - Not bad for just a contender.


And one of the greatest trainers ever


----------



## Powerpuncher

Flea Man said:


> first proper thing I wrote...so excuse the terrible writing http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/blog/?p=11106


Good write up I suppose the Q is who he could have dethroned??


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> It says 1951 in the title


Ok, now I'm confused.

I was referring to the Charles-Bivins fight.



Powerpuncher said:


> Bivins looks better a year before against Archie





Powerpuncher said:


> I thought there was a possibility Bivins was wearing the wraps in that final Charles bout though. He doesn't look nearly as sharp as a year earlier.


Charles-Bivins 4 - 1948 - their penultimate fight.
Moore-Bivins 5 - 1951 - their final fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> - @Bill Jincock @Flea Man, don't duck me!


PowerPuncher proved that you don't have to be a bitch in order to be a Floyd's fan.

@LittleRed took up the challenge just like his namesake would - without flinching.

@Bill Jincock and @Flea Man, you guys on the hand have earned this guy's respect:









Or you can face your fear.

The damage has already been done though and people will argue forever what if Lora&Flea faced a prime Charles' discussion, not a faded version that has been KO'd twice in a row by LR and PP.

Sure, Lora's got that amazing H2H-peak and Flea's numbers are staggering but that asterisk will always be there.

What if they didn't duck their biggest fight? 
Would Lora's textbook style look as invincible against Ezz's unpredictable questions?
Would Flea's questionable chin&will crumble under high stakes' topics' pressure?
Would PowerPuncher's relentless attack upset Lora's methodical rhythm?
Would LittleRed KO Flea early with his frightening baseball knowledge before Flea got the chance to warm-up?
What if Lora&Flea had to move up in weight and challenge Lester - would their legacies suffer from such crushing defeats - just as Burt never recovered from that brutal KO by Klompton when he challenged him to the Greb-Demspey battle.
Or maybe this discussion would have elevated them regardless of an outcome - just like it happened to the Mendoza-Mcvey 37845 fight rivalry?
Or maybe it's a good thing they never left their backyards - maybe there's nothing wrong with piling up easy thread-defenses - it worked for McGrain - and look at him now - happily riding success of his top100 thread and enjoying his life.
But then again grueling discussions can destroy a poster.
Remember Luf? Yeah, some people hyped him as the next Thistle, put him on their P4P-lists even. And where is he now? Finished, sad and homeless.
Or Manassa? Poor guy got Parkinsons now - he doesn't even understand where he is - thinks he's Messi's shorts, for crissakes.

Some fanboys might say - it's understandable why Flea is avoiding this topic - badlefthook owns his ass - they stalled his career - he's now been reduced to writing some hand-picked articles once a year - he got Santacruz'd.

But Lora thinks he's bigger than posting - that he can go on vacations whenever he pleases and can ignore his mandatories - chasing only easy supertopic-mismatches like those laughable defenses against Duran-Pac - shit was embarrassing - he basically laughed at his fans on his way to the georgian restaurant.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that forums need topics like this - we've seen enough ducking, shameless gif manipulations and meaningless mismatches already.

It's time to clean our forum and finally give fans what they want.

They deserve it.

Respectfully yours, Dan Kellerman.


----------



## Flea Man

What topic is this @Lester1583?


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> What topic is this @Lester1583?


Ezzard Charles: Rise and Fall and the complete insignificance of Robinson's legacy:
http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...today-thread&p=1909076&viewfull=1#post1909076

This one deserves some attention too:
McCallum: The most overrated junior middle ever or just a regular hypejob:
http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...today-thread&p=1877366&viewfull=1#post1877366

And here Lora and I came to a conclusion on who's the greatest light welter of the last 40 years:
http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...today-thread&p=1833836&viewfull=1#post1833836


----------



## LittleRed

Have we reached a consensus on who won the McCallum v. Toney fights? I go Toney, McCallum, and the AARP respectively. But I wonder if I'm in the minority...

On Ezzard something to note. Most fighters, even most good fighters don't beat a ton of ranked opponents. If you've done 15 or 20 that's a hell of a deep resume. Duran had 19, Chavez 21. Even guys that fought all the time like Pep had about 27. But 30 is where the ATG no question guys reside. Ali. Louis. Armstrong. And Emile Griffith (ok, maybe not quite the other names). Anyway there are three guys who best 40 or more top 10 guys. Sugar Ray Robinson. Archie Moore. And Ezzard Charles. I don't know what it means bit I'm impressed by it.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Have we reached a consensus on who won the McCallum v. Toney fights? I go Toney, McCallum, and the AARP respectively. But I wonder if I'm in the minority...


It's not a popular opinion today but I've never considered the second fight a robbery or that controversial.

It's understandable why plenty of people scored it for McCallum - he was busier, more consistent, threw body punches/accurate sneaky low blows all night long, moved (at least in the first half), jabbed.
But almost non of his punches were big.

While Toney was his usual self, fighting without a sense of urgency and scoring the harder cleaner punches to the head.

The "what you prefer more" fight basically.

It wasn't even considered that controversial back then, by the way - more like a very close/dull to casuals fight where the younger more popular fighter got the decision.

It's mild revisionism that comes from the "McCallum is the most underrated!" trend that has become popular lately.

The scorecards were way off though.


----------



## Bill Jincock

McCallum did look more or less past it in the rematch.He had basically become Kevin Finnegan IE, still a good technical fighter, but now distinctly unathletic.

Toney did his lethargic schtick for one of the first times and gave us a sign of things to come.Did little after the first three rounds, but wasn't getting hit much either.By then he was getting serious hype as the possible next great American middle, as Nunn had done.No one was caring much about an inconclusive fight with an old Jamaican.The whole thing had the feel of "get this old cunt out of the way so we can move you on to bigger things, James...btw it's fixed anyway but make it look good if you can"

btw i ain't getting into a full analysis of Ezzard Charles with you this time lester.Sorry bro...i've been meaning to take a year or so away from all boxing for a while, but you keep pulling me back in.I've got to be disciplined.Watching some old sloppy Charles fights might push me over the edge.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> i've been meaning to take a year or so away from all boxing for a while


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Ok, now I'm confused.
> 
> I was referring to the Charles-Bivins fight.
> 
> Charles-Bivins 4 - 1948 - their penultimate fight.
> Moore-Bivins 5 - 1951 - their final fight.


:rofl my mistake and I therefore can't explain how poor Bivins looked there, either the fix was in or the footwork or bodyblows took it out of him.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Have we reached a consensus on who won the McCallum v. Toney fights?





Bill Jincock said:


> Toney did his lethargic schtick for one of the first times and gave us a sign of things to come.


By the way, I don't think Toney was bad physically in this fight - he actually looked fast and well-conditioned.

More like he enjoyed the process of being in the ring with McCallum whom he respected in his own way more - treated this fight as a... well, sparring is not the right word, in other words, didn't consider McCallum an enemy or something like that, if you catch my drift.

Toney was still a bit green in the first fight which was a learning experience for him - I don't remember in which particular fight Toney hit his peak but he looked a complete fighter technically in the second McCallum fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> :rofl my mistake and I therefore can't explain how poor Bivins looked there, either the fix was in or the footwork or bodyblows took it out of him.


To put it differently, it proves again how infinitely superior to Moore was Charles.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> By the way, I don't think Toney was bad physically in this fight - he actually looked fast and well-conditioned.
> 
> More like he enjoyed the process of being in the ring with McCallum whom he respected in his own way more - treated this fight as a... well, sparring is not the right word, in other words, didn't consider McCallum an enemy or something like that, if you catch my drift.
> 
> Toney was still a bit green in the first fight which was a learning experience for him - I don't remember in which particular fight Toney hit his peak but he looked a complete fighter technically in the second McCallum fight.


Yeah. Toney is one of the guys that his place really depends on how you scored his fights, although no one can deny his raw skill.

Top 5 fat guy fighter of all time though, along with heavyweight Langford, Old Foreman, and Packey McFarland.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Lester1583 said:


> By the way, I don't think Toney was bad physically in this fight - he actually looked fast and well-conditioned.
> 
> More like he enjoyed the process of being in the ring with McCallum whom he respected in his own way more - treated this fight as a... well, sparring is not the right word, in other words, didn't consider McCallum an enemy or something like that, if you catch my drift.
> 
> Toney was still a bit green in the first fight which was a learning experience for him - I don't remember in which particular fight Toney hit his peak but he looked a complete fighter technically in the second McCallum fight.


i don't mean he looked out of shape in it, just that he took it easy and coasted.

They never really had a fight where both were at their peak imo.McCallum's prime ended after the Kalambay rematch imo(which was against another fighter on the cusp of getting past it physically) and he'd looked slowed physically against Collins.You could see him age before your eyes over the last third of the Toney bout, and as you say james was still developing...he was more of a classic offensive minded boxer-puncher then and not fully settled into his favoured defensive minded philly shell, slip and counter thing...though if that was a better route to take might be arguable.

Still, the first fight was still close enough to both being at their best-and had the stylistic matchup of both willing to go for it and make a statement- to make it a classic.The second not so much, with both in a comfort zone against each other.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> james was still developing...he was more of a classic offensive minded boxer-puncher then and not fully settled into his favoured defensive minded philly shell, slip and counter thing...though if that was a better route to take might be arguable.


That's an interesting thought.

I was just rewatching Moore-Bivins _(join us)_ both of whom remind me of Toney (young prime Moore of the Oakland Billy fight especially) or rather aggressive versions of Toney from parallel universe.

Funny how all three of them - Hop, Toney and Floyd - abandoned that side of their game rather quickly - even if for different reasons.

Toney I'd say was capable of developing a respectable offensive style - he was never going to be the next Duran or Benes but he could've been a lesser variation of Moore - non-explosive/small-steps forward/active trap-setter.

It's just that it was against his whole "Burger King, here I come" nature.


----------



## Lester1583

Were monumental struggles against movers and the continuous avoidance of Hamed reflections of Marquez's subconscious fear of Sweet C McMillan?


----------



## prepasur

Lester1583 said:


> Been rewatching some Ezz lately.
> 
> He's one of the most disappointing and impressive great fighters simultaneously.
> At times he throws punches so Monzonesque slow, it would make old Foreman blush and then outta nowhere he blasts his opponents with lightning quick single punches.
> Some of his leaping left hooks looked borderline ridiculous/amateurish even - so overexaggareted, slow and unbalanced they were.
> And then some one-two combos looked picture perfect, laser-like precise and amazingly quick.
> Aided by outstanding timing.
> 
> Wouldn't call his defensive reflexes special though.
> 
> He always reminded me of a less durable but a more technical and cerebral Holyfield's predecessor - even his career trajectory - beastly/aggressive at lower weights, past prime/somewhat lackluster by the time he got to big fights.
> 
> That counter right - small step/lean a bit backwards, leave yourself slightly open to lure your opponent in/make him reach - then a quick counter over a lazy jab - close to what Holydield liked to do.
> 
> In the Oma fight his balance is atrocious - these kind of misses and falling off balance stuff you usually see from a shot fighter.
> 
> * He's filmed career is just one big story of slow deterioration.*
> 
> With each passing fight his footwork looked more and more ponderous and speed less and less impressive.
> 
> The only footage where he looks light on his feet is the sped-up Marshall fight. (The Bivins footage is too inconclusive).
> The Walcott 1 and Valentino fights too, maybe.
> 
> Against Louis he gave me an impression of a fighter nearing the end of his physical prime - already at the first stages of decline.
> I'm not a fan of past-prime performances usually but the Louis fight is actually pretty good.
> Louis was at the late 90's Holyfield stage of his career - legs are gone, speed has diminished but still capable of compensating some of his limitations with experience and willpower - not a great H2H-fighter anymore but still capable of beating good fighters and give tough fights to the greater ones.
> 
> For such an excellently schooled/classic punching technique fighter Charles' uppercuts in this fight are pretty unusual - he throws them almost straight upwards, no forward movement - can't really recall a fighter who threw similar uppercuts.
> 
> In almost all of his fights Charles looks like a fighter who knows how to move extremely quick and who used to be extremely quick and agile but his body is not being able to produce this sort of stuff anymore.
> Like at times his brain works faster than his body can react.
> Again kinda like late 90's Holyfield.
> 
> That Jersey Joe KO I'd say marked the end of his heavyweight prime (which wasn't strictly speaking Ezz's true prime).
> 
> @*Powerpuncher*
> @*Flea Man*
> @*LittleRed*


Hi i'm new but i'd like to be my opinion about my favorite fighter Mr. Ezzard Charles

Like you said deterioration is the key word to really know the unsolved mistery of Ezzard Charles or at least part of it.

When i see him against Cesar Brion, Par Valentino, Rocky Marciano, Bob Satterfield, etc. i know that he doesn't look like a "worldbeater" but to really appreciate what makes him great is look the little glimpses of ATG skill that he shows.

Then think what other fighters have this type of skills, the answer is only others ATG know these tricks.

After that the analysis goes to the deterioration part, you have to take into account that all of the footage that we have except the Marshall fight is Ezzard post-Baroudi.

This means that Charles is fighting different his psyche is damaged while he can still try to fight like before his mind prevents that in some way, only in fights when he is going against fire he shows flashes of it, like the Marciano or Satterfield fight, but most of his fights he only does enough to win he goes trough the motions.

Also other significantly part is his disease we dont know when it starts to manifest but we only can suppose that, fighting too often gainst great opponents will deteriorate you fast but add to that this unfortunate disease and we can come to the conclusion that sooner or later the destiny of Ezzard Charles is to deteriorate slow or fast but it's going to be obvious.

And thats exactly what happenned.

Anyways the Lloyd Marshall fight, shows me the hope and makes me smile, that we have him in a great performance and shows why he is considered great and shows skill and that the many memories that are lost of this beautiful sport are real..

I accept everyones opinion i'm only playing the Cincinnati Cobra advocate

P.D. Sorry for my bad english i'm mexican


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Good write up I suppose the Q is who Benton could have dethroned??


Tiger.


----------



## Lester1583

Benton looks much more aggressive/active against Boyd, not the usual counterpunching Toney-prototype.

It's the earliest footage available of him.

Wonder if it was the case of him being more attack-minded in his youth/having physical capability to press the action or just a rare occasion caught on tape.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Were monumental struggles against movers and the continuous avoidance of Hamed reflections of Marquez's subconscious fear of Sweet C McMillan?


Did they actually cross paths through their WBO FW contenderships or is this a proposed fantasy fight? I haven't studied McMillan enough (or his opp) to decide how good he is tbh but Marquez is unfairly written off with struggling with back foot technicians. He's fought Casamayor, John, Norwood, Polo, Gainer, Cassiani, Sanchez and picked up 1 close loss and robbed in another bout. I wonder how many losses Pacquaio would pick up against that list.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Did they actually cross paths through their WBO FW contenderships


No, by the time Marquez established himself as a contender McMillan was finished - actually he was finished even before Marquez debuted - shoulder injury has ruined his career.



Powerpuncher said:


> I haven't studied McMillan enough (or his opp) to decide how good he is


His opposition is completely forgettable but he was a nice promising fighter - meaningless WBO-strap aside, he was basically a rising contender before he ruined his shoulder.

But a good talented out-boxing technician, fast-footed, not stiff - didn't like it rough though - the kind of fighter a textbook counterpuncher with limited footwork would struggle with.

@Bill Jincock knows more about Sweet C - he was his promoter.



Powerpuncher said:


> but Marquez is unfairly written off with struggling with back foot technicians. He's fought Casamayor, John, Norwood, Polo, Gainer, Cassiani, Sanchez and picked up 1 close loss and robbed in another bout. I wonder how many losses Pacquaio would pick up against that list.


Less than Floyd would pick against tall jabbers.:blurp

I don't think Pacquiao necessarily loses to anyone who gives him movement or manages to puzzle him with superior skillset, to be honest - to some extent he can always compensate his footwork limitations with activity, handspeed and power - at the lighter weights at least - and make it close on the "impartial" judges' scorecards.

He still fought on even terms (more or less) with Marqeuz until he started to slow down by the time of their third fight.

You'd have to be more than just an ordinary mover in order to beat him.

C.John for example never impressed - at least not to the point of favoring him against Manny.

I get what're saying and had Marquez been a ppv-superstar from the beginning of his career who could chose his opposition, he could have been even more respected and with less losses.
While Manny fought some great/good fighter who made him look greater than he was.

But then again you can say that about many fighters.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> His opposition is completely forgettable but he was a nice promising fighter - meaningless WBO-strap aside, he was basically a rising contender before he ruined his shoulder.
> 
> But a good talented out-boxing technician, fast-footed, not stiff - didn't like it rough though - the kind of fighter a textbook counterpuncher with limited footwork would struggle with.
> 
> @Bill Jincock knows more about Sweet C - he was his promoter.


I'm guessing a fan and not the actual Frankie W?

Who's the best FW he could have beat?



Lester1583 said:


> Less than Floyd would pick against tall jabbers.:blurp
> 
> I don't think Pacquiao necessarily loses to anyone who gives him movement or manages to puzzle him with superior skillset, to be honest - to some extent he can always compensate his footwork limitations with activity, handspeed and power - at the lighter weights at least - and make it close on the "impartial" judges' scorecards.
> 
> He still fought on even terms (more or less) with Marqeuz until he started to slow down by the time of their third fight.
> 
> You'd have to be more than just an ordinary mover in order to beat him.
> 
> C.John for example never impressed - at least not the point of favoring him against Manny.
> 
> I get what're saying and had Marquez been a ppv-superstar from the beginning of his career who could chose his opposition, he could have been even more respected and with less losses.
> While Manny fought some great/good fighter who made him look greater than he was.
> 
> But then again you can say that about many fighters.


I'm not so sure on Pacman as yourself. I think he's been matched incredibly conveniently and unless he proves us otherwise against Mayweather, I believe for very good reason. I always believed Guzman would have shut him out but as you mentioned Pacman probably would have missed enough punches to make the judges sleep at night.

As for 'He still fought on even terms (more or less) with Marqeuz until he started to slow down by the time of their third fight', come on son he lost the first 2 fights by around 16-8 more or less and Marquez was drawing his pension when Roach thought it was a good time for the rubber. And Juan doesn't really get on his bike too much.

Manny would overcome some of those lesser guys with his sheer speed and power, no doubt, but I reckon some are even money, if the judges are on the level. Casa especially gives Manny fits as does Norwood. John and Gainer are tricky for him, John more so. Polo and Medina he probably overwhelmes. But remember Sanchez was solidly beating him a little while before 'his greatest win' again MAB.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> come on* son*


This sounds like an insult to me.



Powerpuncher said:


> I'm guessing a fan and not the actual Frankie W?


He's a mysterious man.



Powerpuncher said:


> Who's the best FW he could have beat?


Marquez.



Powerpuncher said:


> unless he proves us otherwise against Mayweather, I believe for very good reason.


Then he won't prove it to you.



Powerpuncher said:


> I always believed Guzman would have shut him out but as you mentioned Pacman probably would have missed enough punches to make the judges sleep at night.


There's nothing wrong with losing to Guzman who was a very good fighter at the lighter weights.
Even if some would disagree.



Powerpuncher said:


> As for 'He still fought on even terms (more or less) with Marqeuz until he started to slow down by the time of their third fight', he lost the first 2 fights by around 16-8 more or less and Marquez was drawing his pension when Roach thought it was a good time for the rubber. And Juan doesn't really get on his bike too much.


No need to use demagogic methods of discussion on me.
I'm not a fanboy who visits forums for the sake of arguing.

Both first fights were closely contested - regardless of how you or I have scored them.

They are more telling of their H2H-level than the last two with both of them declined significantly from the younger days and with Pac being far more reliant on his youth.
Both of which Marquez has won convincingly.



Powerpuncher said:


> Manny would overcome some of those lesser guys with his sheer speed and power, no doubt, but I reckon some are even money, if the judges are on the level. Casa especially gives Manny fits as does Norwood. John and Gainer are tricky for him, John more so. Polo and Medina he probably overwhelmes. But remember Sanchez was solidly beating him a little while before 'his greatest win' again MAB.


Pac's greatness lies not in a H2H-beastness - I see no problem with favouring certain fighters over him.
Especially saying some would give him hard fights.

Old Agapito hardly was putting a Kalambay on a roided up to his eyeballs Pac, to be fair.
More like fouling mercilessly the still developing Manny in a competitive fight.

Casa fought his Pac in Freitas.
On one hand he did beat him, even if the judges saw it differently.
On the other, Freitas' awkardness and speed did bother him and Manny is faster with his hands and I'd say more persistent both in his attack and mentally.


----------



## Lester1583

Koji "Phantasm" Kobayashi - a sure HOF'er or an obscure ATG?

@Flea Man, I don't think you were being fair to Koji in your descriptions, by the way.

Made him look like Freitas.

There was hardly anything embarrassing about his losses.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> I was behind this


Luisito Espinosa said Khaokor was the best defensive fighter he's ever faced.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Coggi was a titan of the sport.


Juan Martin Coggi on who was the most skillful fighter:



> Himself


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Koji "Phantasm" Kobayashi - a sure HOF'er or an obscure ATG?
> 
> @Flea Man, I don't think you were being fair to Koji in your descriptions, by the way.
> 
> Made him look like Freitas.
> 
> There was hardly anything embarrassing about his losses.


What did I say? That he was a bully who folded under pressure?


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Been watching some Rosendo Alvarez lately.
> 
> His uppercut to the balls was a thing of beauty.


Not as good as "blow blow" Bob Pacquaio his precision laser guided straights to the balls.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> What did I say? That he was a bully who folded under pressure?


Cut off your pinky finger, send it to Koji-san and beg him for forgiveness.

You've disappointed us all.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> You know I can't smile without Yuh
> I can't smile without Yuh
> I can't laugh and I can't sing
> I'm finding it hard to post anything
> You see I feel sad when Yuh's sad
> I feel glad when Yuh's glad
> If you only knew what I'm going through
> I just can't smile without Yuh


Nobody threw faster wide hooks than Lightning Lonnie Smith.

Lightning Lonnie's breathtaking domination of Billy "Half-Conteh/Half-Norton" Costello is up there with the greatest achievements of the last 30 years - Sweet C's stoppage of Kevin Pritchard, Jamie McDonnell's SD win over Ian Nappa and Reg Gutteridge's Chang's fights' commentary.

Which in turn makes Arredondo's KO of Lonnie even more perplexing and grandiose.

As Lonnie-Costello looked exactly how I always imagined Jones-Spinks would look like - a fleet-footed unorthodox boxer-puncher schooling and destroying an outmatched hard-punching plodder.

Chavez, of course, feasted on Lonnie's corpse 16 years after that fight - he loved having those big names on his artificially bloated resume.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's no coincidence Henry Armstrong died in 1988 - the year Duke McKenzie won his first world title.
Dirty old fart knew what was coming and kicked the bucket out of unbearable jealousy.


----------



## Bill Jincock

:rofl at that Costello description.It's spot on too.Looks wise that is...Costello far surpassed both stylistically.

Incidentally, Chavez rep for being one of the all-time greats at ring-cutting...he didn't really have to work too hard to get that and fight many good movers did he? a faded Castillo that no longer had the same legs, a washed up, "only here for the money" Lonnie Smith, John Duplesis...well Frankie Randall moved well against him, but that's no example to use of greatness.or the Pea fight where he was often turned with ease(no shame there mind you).

You would think he had easily cornered and widely beaten various master boxers to get that kind of credit, but no almost all of the genuinely very good fighters he fought took him on at centre-ring for the most part.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Incidentally, Chavez rep for being one of the all-time greats at ring-cutting...he didn't really have to work too hard to get that and fight many good movers


That's true but the more important question we need to ask ourselves is how many Jim Watt's headbutts would it take to make Chavez look like Salma Hayek?


----------



## Lester1583

Gushiken's destruction of Little Foreman - undeservedly overhyped by the Okinawa barber community or the real reason behind Ali's Parkinson's?


----------



## Lester1583

Mayweather exits my top 10 super feather list.

Ricardo Arredondo-Enrique Garcia is a life-changing experience.

Dem in-and-out combos from RicArr - like a Maussa syndrome-stricken Olivares.


----------



## Lester1583

If that's not the best way to lose a fight, then I don't know what is:



> Vorapin was disqualified for throwing a round house kick.


----------



## Jdempsey85

80s version of canelo Mathew Hilton giving Benitez a real beating,tough to watch at times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lester1583

Too Sharp is one of boxing's true "what if" fighters.

His deficiencies - occasional overreliance on reflexive defense, relative flat-footedness and tendency to take unnecessary risks - would they cost him against better opposition?

The Ratanachai - who was no less skilled than his record-breaking brother - win was epic - but still not good enough for a categorical assessment of Johnson's abilities.

Another wasted potential.

Tapia's problems triggered by the realization of inability of finding courage to face Too Sharp is Johnson's only consolation.


----------



## Jdempsey85

The great Joe Frazier:lol:


----------



## Phantom

Just got finished reviewing Corrie Sanders-Vladimir Klitschko...oh man, he just devastates Vlad...if they had let it go go any, he would have killed him....but Lord, give WK credit here...out of this devastation, he came back as virtually no fighter I've ever heard of, save Joe Louis after Schmeling...what a huge destruction by Sanders...and the man died like a true lion,...tragically.../defending his daughter and taking the bullet....


----------



## Theron

Gibbons had such a nice right hand, great uppercuts and his short rights were very nice and accurate


----------



## Sweet Pea

Posted this in the little guy thread in the world forum:

I rewatched Gonzalez/Estrada today. For a while I've contended that it was a great fight (maybe the best Flyweight or under fight of the last 15 years), and that while the fight was close, there could be no denying that Gonzalez was the clear winner. 

Not sure if I was just too keen on Gonzalez at the time and thus lending more credence to his work or what, but I've changed my mind a bit on the fight after that second go around. 

1. It wasn't just one of the best of the last 15 years, it was one of the very best Flyweights I've ever seen. 

2. The fight was VERY close, and not even especially clear. I still maintain that Gonzalez did the cleaner work and landed the harder punches. That's who he is. However, Estrada simply landed more, hung in there tit for tat in the trenches, and even arguably finished stronger. Gonzalez did the best work with Estrada against the ropes (cutting the ring off masterfully), while Estrada did his best work in the center of the ring. 

If Gonzalez won (which I still have no issue with), it should've been MUCH closer on the cards. I'm talking SD or MD. 

A few tweaks and a fairer judging panel and Estrada could very well take the rematch. With that said, Gonzalez's management is pretty sly. He's been matched easy since their war (apart from the upcoming Viloria bout), whereas Estrada has been taking on the superior opposition and, by nature, been fighting the far more taxing fights. Gonzalez is keeping fresh in line for the rematch. Estrada is putting his body through the ringer. That could be a deciding factor when these two eventually touch them up again. 

Hopefully it doesn't effect Estrada too much, as he has youth on his side.


----------



## Chatty

Sweet Pea said:


> Posted this in the little guy thread in the world forum:
> 
> I rewatched Gonzalez/Estrada today. For a while I've contended that it was a great fight (maybe the best Flyweight or under fight of the last 15 years), and that while the fight was close, there could be no denying that Gonzalez was the clear winner.
> 
> Not sure if I was just too keen on Gonzalez at the time and thus lending more credence to his work or what, but I've changed my mind a bit on the fight after that second go around.
> 
> 1. It wasn't just one of the best of the last 15 years, it was one of the very best Flyweights I've ever seen.
> 
> 2. The fight was VERY close, and not even especially clear. I still maintain that Gonzalez did the cleaner work and landed the harder punches. That's who he is. However, Estrada simply landed more, hung in there tit for tat in the trenches, and even arguably finished stronger. Gonzalez did the best work with Estrada against the ropes (cutting the ring off masterfully), while Estrada did his best work in the center of the ring.
> 
> If Gonzalez won (which I still have no issue with), it should've been MUCH closer on the cards. I'm talking SD or MD.
> 
> A few tweaks and a fairer judging panel and Estrada could very well take the rematch. With that said, Gonzalez's management is pretty sly. He's been matched easy since their war (apart from the upcoming Viloria bout), whereas Estrada has been taking on the superior opposition and, by nature, been fighting the far more taxing fights. Gonzalez is keeping fresh in line for the rematch. Estrada is putting his body through the ringer. That could be a deciding factor when these two eventually touch them up again.
> 
> Hopefully it doesn't effect Estrada too much, as he has youth on his side.


I watched it again about a month back and had it razor thin, Estrada really pulled away at the beginning and I felt a bit of inexperience was what let him down, tried to compose himself a bit too much. I think Gonzalez deserved the nod but I wouldnt be unhappy with Estrada scraping it or a draw tbh.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk


----------



## Sweet Pea

Chatchai Sasakul RTD7 Juan Domingo Cordoba: Precision beatdown from the Thai. If you're a heartless fan of clinical bullying, you should enjoy it.


----------



## Michael

Watched Luis Manuel Rodriguez vs Federico Thompson today, good upload by @Flea Man, Rodriguez was quality and never gave Thompson space to breath. Must check out a few of his fights with Emile Griffith now.


----------



## scartissue

Michael said:


> Watched Luis Manuel Rodriguez vs Federico Thompson today, good upload by @Flea Man, Rodriguez was quality and never gave Thompson space to breath. Must check out a few of his fights with Emile Griffith now.


Michael, if you get a chance, watch the 4th fight between Griffith and Rodriguez. I honestly could not even make a case for Griffith getting that decision. I thought that was one of the worst decisions at welterweight. I felt the far busier Rodriguez was a shoo-in on that decision. I'd love to hear your thoughts.


----------



## MAG1965

I always like watching Rosario vs. Bramble. Bramble looked so strong against Crawley, and he fights Rosario and the power and speed just blow him out in 2 rounds.


----------



## desertlizard

watching Ward-Froch


----------



## MAG1965

I have been watching a lot of Edwin Rosario lately. Trying to gauge how hard a puncher he was. He seemed tremendously strong, yet then Chavez moves up from 130 and looks stronger. I didn't get that.


----------



## Pedderrs

Does nobody watch classic fights any more?


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Does nobody watch classic fights any more?


On everything legendary:
http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/legendary-legends.66636/

On everything small and mexican:
http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/the-official-little-guys-discussion-thread.61666/

On everything european and brutal:
http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/the-cruiserweight-express.284/

On everything big and black:
http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/19-seconds-19-years-ago.62344/


----------



## Pedderrs

I watched Mac Foster experience his first defeat as a professional against the always dangerous Gerry Quarry. Foster looked brilliant early on, ripping Quarry with very fast left jabs before bringing over the right hand, which at one point appeared to seriously hurt Quarry. Everyone in the stadium and the people watching at home knew it but apparently Foster didn't, because he made no attempt to pounce and instead allowed Quarry to recover under no pressure. A lack of experienece and killer instinct that would soon come to haunt him as after some beautiful boxing from both, Quarry finds Mac with the right hand and closes the show in round 6 of a scheuled 10. Foster attempts to get up but having been knocked through the ropes, the referee decides to wave off the fight declaring Quarry the winner.


----------



## desertlizard

Carbajal-Gonzalez II 

the headbutt was not a factor in the decision, Carbajal was surprised the decision wasn't for him, draw for me


----------



## Manassa

I just saw a clip of Carlos Ortiz bashing the absolute shit out of Len Matthews. I've watched a good deal of Ortiz over the years but was surprised to find that this one was new to me. It's on the level of Ike Williams against Beau Jack or Gene Fullmer against Benny Paret. Actually it's even worse.


----------



## Pedderrs

Moochie getting tagged after the bell against Molinares is so heartbreaking. He was putting on an exhibition before that and was almost certainly headed for a lopsided points victory; perhaps even a late stoppage seeing as how Marlon's punches seemed to be hurting him. Starling would be a force in today's Welterweight division with his impenetrable defensive shell coupled with an underrated offensive arsenal. Great hand speed and fluidity in his shots, too. Molinares was being bullied irrespective of where the fight was, and this was no more evident than when Molinares resorted to laying back on the ropes and calling Starling in. That was a frustrated fighter if there ever was one. Indeed, Moochie could fight at every range -- inside and out. And even if you don't like Starling's style, you should watch this fight anyway just to see a young Freddie Roach with his horrendous haircut in Moochie's corner.


----------



## smokinjoe 89

a few days ago Randall Bailey vs Herman Nougdjo (2007) very entertaining fight I had Bailey wining by two rounds but sadly didn't get the decision . I got another one recorded that showed Curtis Stevens vs Jesse Brinkley from 2010 I will be Watching that today


----------



## desertlizard




----------



## desertlizard

what a great fighter Saldivar was


----------



## Jdempsey85

Manassa said:


> I just saw a clip of Carlos Ortiz bashing the absolute shit out of Len Matthews. I've watched a good deal of Ortiz over the years but was surprised to find that this one was new to me. It's on the level of Ike Williams against Beau Jack or Gene Fullmer against Benny Paret. Actually it's even worse.


Shiiit what a beating+them sound effects:lol:


----------



## desertlizard

anyone has the 3rd one between these two little titans? nowhere to be found


----------



## Lester1583

desertlizard said:


> anyone has the 3rd one between these two little titans? nowhere to be found


As far as I know only the highlights of Olivares - Chucho 3 are available.

Never say never though - who knows maybe some private collector has the full version.


----------



## desertlizard

Lester1583 said:


> As far as I know only the highlights of Olivares - Chucho 3 are available.
> 
> Never say never though - who knows maybe some private collector has the full version.


well let's keep the spirit


----------



## rossco




----------



## tommygun711

Decided to watch Ali-Norton II today in honor of the GOAT passing. Great chessmatch and always was my favorite of the trilogy.

Round 1: Ali danced the entire round, landed some nice combos, Norton stalked Ali but landed little to no significant punches aside from a couple lefts. Some nice combos to end the round by Ali, and a lot of lead right hands. You can tell early on Ali's jab, movement and hand speed were all particularly sharp. He's in shape as he didn't underestimate Ali this time. 10-9 Ali

Round 2: Nice movement to start the round by Ali. A nice long jab to keep Norton off. Norton is generally very good at slipping & parrying Ali's shots, but they are landing in this round. Norton gets the jab going this round and lands a few left hooks to the body. Ali's jab keeps Norton off but isn't particularly accurate. 10-9 Ali

Round 3: Ali does more of the same to start the round; lands a classy right uppercut to land the round and continues to land the jab. Norton begins to open up and lands a few blows to the body. Ali is landing the jab and right lead with pretty good regularity. Another good round for Ali, he largely kept the fight on the outside. 10-9 Ali

Round 4: The first significant blow of the round is a check left hook off the ropes by Ali. beautiful move. Norton stays on the move & applies consistent pressure, but doesn't land much. Norton lands some good body shots in this round and has some more success jabbing with Ali. Ali stands flat footed in the corner and gets clipped with a left hook on his way out. A good left hook by Ali follows & causes Norton to stumble back briefly. A good 1-2 by Ali, Norton lands a good right hook to the body. At the end of the round Norton lands a big overhand right, the best blow of the fight. 10-9 Ali, despite Norton having his best round. Could be Norton's round as well, bit of a swing round.

Round 5: Norton lands a jab to start the round. Ali lands another nice left hook as he's moving back. Norton lands another good left hook to the body & is applying good pressure with his jab. He continues to parry Ali, which sometimes works & sometimes doesn't. Ali is slowing down noticabley for the first time, and then goes on to land his best shot of the fight, a right hand to the head. Norton's best round yet with lots of body shots and a decent jab. Ali lands the jab and left hooks in this round with regularity. They continue to exchange at the bell. Norton's best round yet, clearly starting to come on. 10-9 Norton

Round 6: Ali lands a right lead to start the round - Norton replies with a left hook that lands partially. Norton's confidence is rising as he counters with left hooks to the head and body ala Joe Frazier. Norton's has found a home for his "shotgun" jab which he is landing with regularity in this round. Whenever Ali is on the ropes Norton tries to unload.Big left hook lands by Ali as Norton comes rushing in - Ali lands a beautiful right hand this round on the chin of Norton, stunning him. undoubtedly his best shot. Norton replies furiously and they exchange in the middle of the ring as Norton shakes off the big shot. Ali lands another big right hand and a left hook to end the round. Great round for both guys. 10-9 Ali

Round 7: Ali's confidence is sky high after a nice 6th round. Ali lands 5-6 jabs to star the round, Norton applies more pressure and throws some body shots. Interesting how successful Norton is with the jab against Ali. he will sometimes parry Ali's jab and then throw his own at the same time. Norton corners Ali and lands his best flurry of the fight, uppercuts, left hooks body shots and Ali hangs on. Norton's best sequence of the fight. Ali comes back with his own right hands but they don't have the juice of Norton's. Norton lands a huge right hook and hurts Ali. Ali is on the ropes, taking shots. Norton lands some big uppercuts. Ali is hanging on now and fighting back. 10-9 Norton

Round 8: Ali still on his toes after a pretty intense pace. Norton now has the look of confidence in applying pressure. Ali throws a shoeshine combo, Norton counters with a mean hook the body. As Norton backs Ali on the ropes, Ali lands 3 check left hooks in a row. Norton lands a good uppercut as Ali is on the ropes. Norton gets Ali i nthe corner again and lands a left hook and some body shots. Ali lands a nice 1-2 in the middle of the ring. Both fighters visibly tired now. Norton lands a huge left hook on Ali's chin and backs him on the ropes. Norton lands a combo to end the round. 10-9 Norton

Round 9: Quiet first minute and a half, Norton lands a good combo to Ali's head and continues to pressure Ali on the ropes. Ali is pushing a lot of his punches now and not hitting with power. Norton digs to Ali's body and some good jabs. Ali lands 2 big right hands and possibly staggered Norton and hurt him. Ali puts together a good combination as they both exchange. Norton digs to the body and Ali counters with a straight right to the chin. Ali's vaunted right hand comes into play after he was tired for the first 2 minutes. Ali hurt Norton for the first time this round. 10-9 Ali

Round 10: Ali starts the round a bit flat footed with the jab. Another big 1-2 for Ali as the right hand connects on the chin. Ali now starts dancing despite being tired. Norton sometimes looks like hes being outboxed & gets befuddled but then he traps Ali on the ropes and starts digging to the body. Norton lands a huge left hook as Ali was on the ropes. Ali comes back with more of his own hooks and a right cross. Norton lands another big left hook as Ali was backing off and another big left to the body. Ali counters with an uppercut as the round ends. 10-9 Ali

Round 11: Norton misses wildily with a left hook to start the round but connects with a good shotgun jab. Norton lands a right hook and starts wildily swinging and really working Ali's body. He continues to land the left hook and uppercuts. Norton is applying impressive pressure and is running into some counters due to his recklessness. Both very tired. Ali lands a couple left hooks and a right hand as Norton comes rushing in. Norton lands some shots as Ali is on the ropes.Another big right hand counter by Ali as Norton is coming in.. Ali throws a flurry as Norton stumbles in the counter and lands. Norton appears hurt but was only off balence. Norton's round as he landed the significant power shots and hurt Ali. 10-9 Norton

Round 12: Both touch gloves, clearly exhausted. Ali lands some nice combinations to start. Staggering norton. Great round for Ali so far. Norton getting caught with punches as hes rushing in. Norton very tired and losing the round. Ali continues to land flurries and beaut of an uppercut off of a left hook. Norton rips left hooks on Ali as Ali is on the ropes. Ali lands another looping uppercut as Norton is pressuring him on the ropes. 10-9 Ali. Great fight.

I scored it 8-4 for Ali. Ali's best performance vs Norton, and a really good chessmatch that I always seem to enjoy.


----------



## Trail

tommygun711 said:


> Decided to watch Ali-Norton II today in honor of the GOAT passing. Great chessmatch and always was my favorite of the trilogy.
> 
> Round 1: Ali danced the entire round, landed some nice combos, Norton stalked Ali but landed little to no significant punches aside from a couple lefts. Some nice combos to end the round by Ali, and a lot of lead right hands. You can tell early on Ali's jab, movement and hand speed were all particularly sharp. He's in shape as he didn't underestimate Ali this time. 10-9 Ali
> 
> Round 2: Nice movement to start the round by Ali. A nice long jab to keep Norton off. Norton is generally very good at slipping & parrying Ali's shots, but they are landing in this round. Norton gets the jab going this round and lands a few left hooks to the body. Ali's jab keeps Norton off but isn't particularly accurate. 10-9 Ali
> 
> Round 3: Ali does more of the same to start the round; lands a classy right uppercut to land the round and continues to land the jab. Norton begins to open up and lands a few blows to the body. Ali is landing the jab and right lead with pretty good regularity. Another good round for Ali, he largely kept the fight on the outside. 10-9 Ali
> 
> Round 4: The first significant blow of the round is a check left hook off the ropes by Ali. beautiful move. Norton stays on the move & applies consistent pressure, but doesn't land much. Norton lands some good body shots in this round and has some more success jabbing with Ali. Ali stands flat footed in the corner and gets clipped with a left hook on his way out. A good left hook by Ali follows & causes Norton to stumble back briefly. A good 1-2 by Ali, Norton lands a good right hook to the body. At the end of the round Norton lands a big overhand right, the best blow of the fight. 10-9 Ali, despite Norton having his best round. Could be Norton's round as well, bit of a swing round.
> 
> Round 5: Norton lands a jab to start the round. Ali lands another nice left hook as he's moving back. Norton lands another good left hook to the body & is applying good pressure with his jab. He continues to parry Ali, which sometimes works & sometimes doesn't. Ali is slowing down noticabley for the first time, and then goes on to land his best shot of the fight, a right hand to the head. Norton's best round yet with lots of body shots and a decent jab. Ali lands the jab and left hooks in this round with regularity. They continue to exchange at the bell. Norton's best round yet, clearly starting to come on. 10-9 Norton
> 
> Round 6: Ali lands a right lead to start the round - Norton replies with a left hook that lands partially. Norton's confidence is rising as he counters with left hooks to the head and body ala Joe Frazier. Norton's has found a home for his "shotgun" jab which he is landing with regularity in this round. Whenever Ali is on the ropes Norton tries to unload.Big left hook lands by Ali as Norton comes rushing in - Ali lands a beautiful right hand this round on the chin of Norton, stunning him. undoubtedly his best shot. Norton replies furiously and they exchange in the middle of the ring as Norton shakes off the big shot. Ali lands another big right hand and a left hook to end the round. Great round for both guys. 10-9 Ali
> 
> Round 7: Ali's confidence is sky high after a nice 6th round. Ali lands 5-6 jabs to star the round, Norton applies more pressure and throws some body shots. Interesting how successful Norton is with the jab against Ali. he will sometimes parry Ali's jab and then throw his own at the same time. Norton corners Ali and lands his best flurry of the fight, uppercuts, left hooks body shots and Ali hangs on. Norton's best sequence of the fight. Ali comes back with his own right hands but they don't have the juice of Norton's. Norton lands a huge right hook and hurts Ali. Ali is on the ropes, taking shots. Norton lands some big uppercuts. Ali is hanging on now and fighting back. 10-9 Norton
> 
> Round 8: Ali still on his toes after a pretty intense pace. Norton now has the look of confidence in applying pressure. Ali throws a shoeshine combo, Norton counters with a mean hook the body. As Norton backs Ali on the ropes, Ali lands 3 check left hooks in a row. Norton lands a good uppercut as Ali is on the ropes. Norton gets Ali i nthe corner again and lands a left hook and some body shots. Ali lands a nice 1-2 in the middle of the ring. Both fighters visibly tired now. Norton lands a huge left hook on Ali's chin and backs him on the ropes. Norton lands a combo to end the round. 10-9 Norton
> 
> Round 9: Quiet first minute and a half, Norton lands a good combo to Ali's head and continues to pressure Ali on the ropes. Ali is pushing a lot of his punches now and not hitting with power. Norton digs to Ali's body and some good jabs. Ali lands 2 big right hands and possibly staggered Norton and hurt him. Ali puts together a good combination as they both exchange. Norton digs to the body and Ali counters with a straight right to the chin. Ali's vaunted right hand comes into play after he was tired for the first 2 minutes. Ali hurt Norton for the first time this round. 10-9 Ali
> 
> Round 10: Ali starts the round a bit flat footed with the jab. Another big 1-2 for Ali as the right hand connects on the chin. Ali now starts dancing despite being tired. Norton sometimes looks like hes being outboxed & gets befuddled but then he traps Ali on the ropes and starts digging to the body. Norton lands a huge left hook as Ali was on the ropes. Ali comes back with more of his own hooks and a right cross. Norton lands another big left hook as Ali was backing off and another big left to the body. Ali counters with an uppercut as the round ends. 10-9 Ali
> 
> Round 11: Norton misses wildily with a left hook to start the round but connects with a good shotgun jab. Norton lands a right hook and starts wildily swinging and really working Ali's body. He continues to land the left hook and uppercuts. Norton is applying impressive pressure and is running into some counters due to his recklessness. Both very tired. Ali lands a couple left hooks and a right hand as Norton comes rushing in. Norton lands some shots as Ali is on the ropes.Another big right hand counter by Ali as Norton is coming in.. Ali throws a flurry as Norton stumbles in the counter and lands. Norton appears hurt but was only off balence. Norton's round as he landed the significant power shots and hurt Ali. 10-9 Norton
> 
> Round 12: Both touch gloves, clearly exhausted. Ali lands some nice combinations to start. Staggering norton. Great round for Ali so far. Norton getting caught with punches as hes rushing in. Norton very tired and losing the round. Ali continues to land flurries and beaut of an uppercut off of a left hook. Norton rips left hooks on Ali as Ali is on the ropes. Ali lands another looping uppercut as Norton is pressuring him on the ropes. 10-9 Ali. Great fight.
> 
> I scored it 8-4 for Ali. Ali's best performance vs Norton, and a really good chessmatch that I always seem to enjoy.


I'm not a fan of the heavyweight division, I prefer the little bangers, so I'll be brief as I don't possess the knowledge of HW - I always wonder, how/why did Kenny Norton seem to have Ali's number?


----------



## tommygun711

Trail said:


> II always wonder, how/why did Kenny Norton seem to have Ali's number?


I guess it was just a stylistic thing, mate. Eddie Futch helped tremendously and was a great technician. He devised the plan for both norton and frazier to beat Ali. Norton had a pretty good jab and left hooks which were good weapons vs Ali. He was so awkward and applied consistent pressure, I'd argue he was more of a kryptonite to Ali than Frazier was..


----------



## The Wanderer

Trail said:


> I'm not a fan of the heavyweight division, I prefer the little bangers, so I'll be brief as I don't possess the knowledge of HW - I always wonder, how/why did Kenny Norton seem to have Ali's number?


I read something once that said that Futch saw a weakness in Ali's style, where Ali would tend to step back most times after throwing a jab, and he had been doing it since he was an amateur, so it was basically an unconscious tendency of his.

So Futch trained Norton, (who was a tremendously disciplined fighter that would unquestioningly do whatever Futch told him and already had a good style against jab and movers) to catch Ali's left jab with Norton's right hand and step forward and fire back a jab at the same time. This would make Ali respond by jabbing again and stepping back again. Norton catches it again and forces Ali back again, and it continues until they either get into the ropes or Ali has little room to maneuver in order to escape Norton. Norton then goes to work.

It didn't work every time, especially because Ali's speed sometimes got the better of Norton, but it worked enough for Norton to always remain a difficult puzzle for Ali.


----------



## tommygun711

The Wanderer said:


> I read something once that said that Futch saw a weakness in Ali's style, where Ali would tend to step back most times after throwing a jab, and he had been doing it since he was an amateur, so it was basically an unconscious tendency of his.
> 
> So Futch trained Norton, (who was a tremendously disciplined fighter that would unquestioningly do whatever Futch told him and already had a good style against jab and movers) to catch Ali's left jab with Norton's right hand and step forward and fire back a jab at the same time. This would make Ali respond by jabbing again and stepping back again. Norton catches it again and forces Ali back again, and it continues until they either get into the ropes or Ali has little room to maneuver in order to escape Norton. Norton then goes to work.
> 
> It didn't work every time, especially because Ali's speed sometimes got the better of Norton, but it worked enough for Norton to always remain a difficult puzzle for Ali.


Why dont you post more goddamnit!

Well said! I'd argue that norton was more equipped to fight Ali than Frazier was.. and as proven in their fights, Norton probably has a better rchin than Frazier, and has more tools offensively.


----------



## The Wanderer

tommygun711 said:


> Why dont you post more goddamnit


Heh. My history with the sport is that I go through cycles of being super into it, then needing a break for a long time and not wtavching for awhile. Right now I'm in a not into part of the cycle. Plus I've had a ton of stuff going on with trying to change careers, going back to school, doing hospital internships, etc. So I just didn't have the time or energy for much else.

Thanks for the kind words though, and maybe I'll be around more often in the near future.


----------



## Trail

The Wanderer said:


> I read something once that said that Futch saw a weakness in Ali's style, where Ali would tend to step back most times after throwing a jab, and he had been doing it since he was an amateur, so it was basically an unconscious tendency of his.
> 
> So Futch trained Norton, (who was a tremendously disciplined fighter that would unquestioningly do whatever Futch told him and already had a good style against jab and movers) to catch Ali's left jab with Norton's right hand and step forward and fire back a jab at the same time. This would make Ali respond by jabbing again and stepping back again. Norton catches it again and forces Ali back again, and it continues until they either get into the ropes or Ali has little room to maneuver in order to escape Norton. Norton then goes to work.
> 
> It didn't work every time, especially because Ali's speed sometimes got the better of Norton, but it worked enough for Norton to always remain a difficult puzzle for Ali.


Read this yesterday but forgot to 'like' it. Fucking great post.


----------



## thehook13

Just caught this smart KO from Eubank - Jarvis


----------



## Trail

thehook13 said:


> Just caught this smart KO from Eubank - Jarvis


Might have felled a horse that.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Michael Dokes vs Gerrie Coetzee

Round 1 a nothing round to say the least neither guy doing much. Coetzee kind of awkwardly moving his hands but not throwing them, he keeps his hands at his ribs or lower and doesnt move his head or tuck his chin. There is an ineffective exchange later in the round when they finally commit to throw, Gerrie did a little more but was hardly effective doing it. going to lean 10-10 i never ever do that

Round 2 patient start before both get the jabs going, Dokes backs into a corner and eats a few shots but lands a lard left hook to keep Coetzee away. Coetzee lands a flush left hook then another along the ropes. Moments later he lands his first real right hand bomb and the crowd got into it. Other than that its Dokes waiting and Coetzee lunging from too far away. 10-0 Coetzee no argument at all....20-19 Coetzee

Round 3 Coetzee comes out cut on the right eye from the last round, walks to the the center but then backs off and backs up much of the round which completely killed the momentum he had in round 2. Dokes has fast hands and puts his shots together well but isnt much of an attacker and I think he is allowing Coetzee to be too comfortable. Now maybe I'm underrating Coetzee but he isnt the most fluid mover and Dokes prefight seems to think he cant fight going back. Dokes has hardly attempted to force him back. 10-9 Dokes, tough round to score. 29-29 Even

Round 4 became more of a fight as Coetzee started the round by rushing Dokes head on but paid the price by eating counters. Coetzee came at Dokes most of the round but was countered and did not land anything effective like his aggressive second round. The jab from Dokes is so quick in delivery and return. Dokes seems to be in a comfort zone as Coetzee attacks somewhat predictably now and isnt quick enough to get out. More physical tactics being implemented as Coetzee gets his arm on the back of Dokes neck and Dokes ties up Coetzee on some of his lunging attacks. 10-9 Dokes 39-38 Dokes

Round 5 drama filled round. Coetzee comes out raising a right glove so Dokes does it back. Coetzee keeps pawing at the right eye which does not appear to be improving. He throws a right to the body and uses the body torque to wing a big left hook that misses bad. He continues to mix in the right and left hook combos but misses. Coetzee jabs as he pursues and tries another combo and Dokes hesitates a fraction of a second before shooting a right and pays as Coetzee beats him to the punch and nails him, Dokes goes down to a knee but pops up immediately caught cold but not hurt. Coetzee goes wild and eats a right and continues to attack wild and off balance and gets tagged, Coetzee finally lands again but eats two sharp body shots. Coetzee ends the round on a right hand near the ropes but he was horrible ineffective after the knockdown. 10-8 Coetzee.... 48-47 Coetzee

Round 6 continues the trend of one good round followed by 1 dull round. seems as if these guys know they have questionable gas tanks and are preserving themselves to not tire or thinking the other guy will. Dokes mouth has been open since the 4th. Very little occurs as Dokes sees Coetzee's shots all the way and Dokes hangs back. Merchant between rounds cant believe Dokes isnt attacking the eye and is down, maybe he has it wider for Coetzee but thinks Dokes is down and not very desperate to get the fight back. 10-9 Coetzee 58-56 Coetzee but a hard round to score.

Round 7 is an intelligent aggressive round for Coetzee, always seems to be out of range of dokes jab and jabs his way in usually a double jab or a foot fake and a jab. He lands and gets out. Gets Dokes to the ropes gets a left hook steps back and Dokes misses the counters he has been waiting on all night. Coetzee rocks Dokes big time but doesnt sell out, continues to land here and there and get out as Dokes is still very dangerous. But he is tiring. 10-9 Coetzee, 68-65 Coetzee

Round 8 a slower round than the 7th as Dokes attempts to counter Coetzees right with his right and it works. Coetzee does land a good left hook on an out of position Dokes and a singular uppercut on the ropes but from a little far away. *Dokes appears more athletic, faster, more fluid, sharper punching and better jabbing but cant find a way to use this to his advantage. Coetzee by all accounts looks like the inferior fighter but has a better grasp of using what he has and negating what Dokes has. Mastering this fight in the execution department,* 10-9 Dokes 77-75


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Round 9 Coetzee really committed to piling points this round with a lot of snap off his punches looks like hes just trying to touch Dokes. Dokes unleashed a flush right hand. Coetzee kind of just lunges with a right to the body then to the head to no effect. Then he lands a powerful shot that may have hurt Dokes then he gets in a left hook that was a solid connect. He employed this punch a little more in the round and its a nice punch that he throws but seems to under use. 10-9 Coetzee 87-84 Coetzee

Great KO though youtube fucking fucked out and I missed most of it

Havent seen much of Dokes but he reminds me of an in shape Stiverne. Good punching technique and power but just doesnt throw punches and is flat footed and stationary

Coetzee didnt really impress me that much but like i said he was more effective at making the fight go his way than Dokes was at imposing himeself


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Erik Morales vs In Jin Chi

Round 1, Chi rushes in with wide shots and surprises Morales with a few right hands that some how got in flush. Morales answered with some work of his own but Chi gets the first 10-9

Round 2, Chi comes in again in this awkward mauling style winging right hands and Morales sleep walks the second round. About a little past the 2 minute mark Chi lands 2 solid rights in the corner and lands a right hand not as effective at the end. Morales missing with much of his return fire. 10-9 Chi 20-18 Chi

*am I losing my shit, did Chi really win the first 2, please sound off on this if you have an opinion on these 2 rounds*

Round 3 Chi continues to do his thing but then is warned for rabbit punches but at the moment I think he is winning, he sticks his glove out and Morales refuses and comes alive winning the rest of the round with rapid combinations. Still Morales eats one here or there but he came out of his passive funk. 10-9 Morales 29-28 Chi

Round 4 starts very slow with Morales just moving all around the ring in a 4 corners offense. Chi finally corners him but lands nothing. Morales begins to systematically pick him apart with precise right hands. Chi fires a combination of 4 or 5 hooks but lands on the back and shoulder blades as Erik ducks the whole thing. Chi catches him twice at the end but a clear round for Morales 10-9 and 38 overall even.

Round 5 Morales comes right to the center and stands his ground, he jabs and watches Chi who is still aggressive but not as busy. Around the 2 min mark he just begins to pick Chi apart with his jab and starts to lean his body in a way that it seems he has figured Chi out and anticipates the punch coming only to roll and fire with leverage a shot of his own. He then begins to use a left uppercut or 45 degree shovel hook to set a right hand something i have seen JMM and Floyd do plenty of times. 10-9 Morales and the fight complexion has drastically shifted. 48-47 Morales.

Round 6 Morales comes out jabbing but leans in with the left hand down and gets banged by a looping right hand, he staggers in retreat and Chi attacks the ref points to his head and warns, Chi looks away at the ref but the action isnt paused and Chi continues an attack only to have the ref actually break it up while Chi had him in big trouble to have the doc look at the cut. Chi visibly pissed sustains the attack landing more and more but Morales recovers landing a big right near the end of the round. 10-9 Chi big round 57 each after 6

*kinda feels like a Floyd vs Mosley scenario, underdog rocks the seemingly unrockable champ and doesnt get the stoppage and that second chance is unlikely to come again*

Round 7 is very competitive and Chi lands a right very similar set up and delivery as the 6th but without the effect. They exchange and chi lands a hard left hook in between a Morales series of shots. Morales overall has command of the round but it is close. 10-9 Morales 67-66 Morales

*shocked to see tv judge has 5-1-1 after 7, I guess my scoring of 1 and 2 to Chi maybe was a stretch but he had 7 close enough to call it 10-10

*


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Continued

Round 8 Chi actually does a counter on Morales that reminds me of when Maidana countered Floyd in the rematch. He counter Morales with a right of his own and did the taunt he has done all fight by putting his arms out to his side and showing his teeth. Twice Morales jabbed to have Chi stick him back with a hard jab of his own. Fight has settled down a lot but they still get in a fierce exchange here and there. Very competitive round I guess still Morales 10-9 77-75 Morales

Got interrupted going to leave this fight, kind of feel vindicated as the real judges had it 117-110 and 116-111 and 116-112 so If Morales won out the rounds my score isnt too close after all

Not all that impressed by Morales as he seems very passive in this fight and a very one dimensional Chi has a lot of success in there. The British guys seemed to think he looked very off. I would like to see how the HBO team called the 6th and if they felt Chi was robbed of momentum like the UK guys did


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Continued

Round 8 Chi actually does a counter on Morales that reminds me of when Maidana countered Floyd in the rematch. He counter Morales with a right of his own and did the taunt he has done all fight by putting his arms out to his side and showing his teeth. Twice Morales jabbed to have Chi stick him back with a hard jab of his own. Fight has settled down a lot but they still get in a fierce exchange here and there. Very competitive round I guess still Morales 10-9 77-75 Morales


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Continued

Round 8 Chi actually does a counter on Morales that reminds me of when Maidana countered Floyd in the rematch. He counter Morales with a right of his own and did the taunt he has done all fight by putting his arms out to his side and showing his teeth. Twice Morales jabbed to have Chi stick him back with a hard jab of his own. Fight has settled down a lot but they still get in a fierce exchange here and there. Very competitive round I guess still Morales 10-9 77-75 Morales


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Continued

Round 8 Chi actually does a counter on Morales that reminds me of when Maidana countered Floyd in the rematch. He counter Morales with a right of his own and did the taunt he has done all fight by putting his arms out to his side and showing his teeth. Twice Morales jabbed to have Chi stick him back with a hard jab of his own. Fight has settled down a lot but they still get in a fierce exchange here and there. Very competitive round I guess still Morales 10-9 77-75 Morales

Got interrupted going to leave this fight, kind of feel vindicated as the real judges had it 117-110 and 116-111 and 116-112 so If Morales won out the rounds my score isnt too close after all

Not all that impressed by Morales as he seems very passive in this fight and a very one dimensional Chi has a lot of success in there. The British guys seemed to think he looked very off. I would like to see how the HBO team c


----------



## Slimtrae

Watched JCC vs Whitaker.
I forgot how dominant Pernell was. Spun him, turned him, jab was nasty, he dipped way too low for a Chavez body attack. Left was laser like, tied Chavez left hook on the inside and was able to push Chavez back when he wanted. Total sweet science from Pernell. He moved a lot, but he also landed frequently while moving. A draw? No way.


----------



## Slimtrae

HW slugfest Bert Cooper vs Ray Mercer.

It's like the extended version of Foreman-Lyle minus the knockdowns.


----------



## Luf

Fight 1: Zaragoza v Lora
1: 9-10
2: 10-9
3: 9-10
4: 8-10
5: 7-10
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: 10-9
11: 9-10
12: 9-10

107:118

The fight started off closely with Zaragoza trying to stay at range and match Lora punch for punch, but the disparity in speed and skill meant Lora could constantly counter over the top with right. Round 2 saw Zaragoza able to keep Lora at range and it looked like it would be quite tactical through the third. Round 4 saw Lora drop Zaragoza and twice more in the fifth. 

Round 6 was a turning point in the fight as it saw Zaragoza take the front foot for the first time, but he was leaving himself too open to win any rounds clearly, imo as Lora couldn't moss the right over the top or the left hook downstairs. 

In round 10 Zaragoza remember to utilise head movement and actually fought quite well hitting Lora with sharp shots and staying out of range.

Round 11 and 12 saw Zaragoza get desperate and begin open up, which Lora could take advantage of and land hard counter shots.

Not sure why the scores were so close, I really thought this was a dominant display of counter punching on the back and front foot.


----------



## Luf

Fight 2: Canizales v Adams
1: 10-9
2: 10-9
3: 10-9
4: 9-10
5: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: 10-9
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: 10-9
11: tko

This fight perfectly highlights the strengths and weaknesses of Canizales imo. 

The first 3 rounds he was the general, stalking and timing with deadly precision, keeping it a punch for punch battle and at 118 with his power, that just isn't a smart move by the opponent.

Adams clearly has an advantage in hand and footspeed and rounds 4-6 he pretty much schooled Orlando. He hit him with hard fast combinations, moving out of range before Orlando could counter. This really exposed his weaknesses especially if matched against greater opposition than a schoolboy.

After that Orlando began pressing the action more slowing Adams down and the rounds were very close and hard to score 7-9. I gave 1 to Canizales and 2 to Adams because Adams was dictating the pace and Canizales wasn't always able to land his big shot.

The stoppage was messy. Orlando had gotten back on top by this point and the stoppage was coming but when it came it was a surprise. Orlando lands a huge upercut, Adams holds his head, gets a point taken off and daddy calls off the fight.

Orlando has great stamina and great power. His timing is world class. But his hand and foot speed mean he's there to be out boxed for periods of time and some rounds here he looked helpless. But as he showed it only takes a few good punches to turn it around. Overall this was a great performance as it showed him at his worst, and then recovering and taking charge again.


----------



## Luf

Fight 3: Kittikasem v Arbachakov 1
1: 9-10
2: 9-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: tko

Arbachakov looked great here. Aside from the kd that is, it wasn't even a flash a knockdown imo, looked quite heavy but Yuri recovered extremely well and went on to knock Kittikasem down.

Every round was competitive but I couldn't score any to the champ. Ebihara had quicker hands, feet and reflexes, he boxed at the right time and exchenged at the right time and he was constantly chipping away with that right hand. 

This was a surprisingly good war and a very competitive bout but there's no doubt as to who the better man was in my mind. There were times when he was walking down Kittikasem and backing him up with relative ease. Masterclass of a performance at the highest level.


----------



## Luf

Fight 4: Vitali v Sanders
1: 9-10
2: 10-9
3: 10-9
4: 10-9
5: 10-9
6: 10-9
7: 10-9
8: tko

All I could think when watching this fight was how superior Vitali was to his little brother. I know Wlad achieved more but Vitali was such a better fighter. Round 1 of this was almost identical to round 1 of Wlad's fight, but only Vitali took the punch and was able to recover.

Round 3 was one of the best rounds of any fight ever, Vitali is not a good inside boxer but when Sanders closed the gap, instead of trying to hold and clinch his way to safety, he fought back, uppercuts, hooks allsorts were thrown and it meant Sanders couldn't bully him the way he bullied Wlad.

By then Sanders was spent and landed maybe 3 or 4 more punches the rest of the fight as Vitali dominated him.

Great performance by a man wanting to take over from Lewis as the next world champion. Just a shame he didn't get the unification with Byrd.

Without his injuries he could have gone dwn as the greater brother. He's higher on my list but I imagine I'm in the minority there.


----------



## Luf

Fight 5: Montiel vs Donaire
1: 9-10
2: tko 

This was Donaire at his absolute finest. Cutting down to BW and FlW he was an absolute demon who could dominate his opposition by virtue of his size and athleticism. When you're the bigger ad quicker man the deck is stacked in your favour.

We did see huge limitations in the Donaire fight and against Walters we saw what happens when he fights me his own size. But in the fights at these lower weights he is gonna be very hard to beat unless you can match his size or negate his speed. Montiel could do doneither and was steamrolled here in this fight.


----------



## Luf

Fight 6: Kalambay v Nunn
1:tko 

I feel like Nunn gets a bad rep sometimes because of the Toney loss. If you accept that Toney is an ATG which we can now say with hindsight.

This night he proved his class and talent in my mind, he was quicker than Kalambay and even though it's hard to gauge how the fight will have panned out he had no real difficulty landing his jab.

That short left hook was a thing of beauty though. Not sure how far it travelled but to destroy the number 1 MW who was on the form of his life and arguably unbeaten was an incredible victory.


----------



## Luf

Fight 7: Saad vs Qawi 1
1: 10-9
2: 9-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: tko 

Qawi was like a man possessed here. Round 1 was feeling out and Saad probably edges it on activity. But from then on it was the Qawi show. He was relentless and had an incredible inside attack plus very accurate over hand shots as he ducked down. Saad had no answer for it.

I couldn't help but think this was exactly the type of opponent we needed to see prime Jones Jr against. 

This was a systematically vicious beat down and Saad took a very unhealthy amount of clean punches here. If you couldn't make Qawi respect you he steamrolled you and that's exactly what happens here.


----------



## Luf

Fight 8: Galindez v Lopez 2
1: 9-10
2: 10-9
3: 10-9
4: 10-9
5: 10-9
6: 9-10
7: 10-9
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: 10-9
11: 9-10
12: 10-9
13: 10-9
14: 10-9
15: 10-9

145:140

This fight shows Galindez at his absolute best imo. He's in against a style that should give him fits, and a style that arguably beat him last time out. Plus Lopez was coming off a world class victory himself.

The first thing you notice is the comical size difference. 

Round 3 is everything I love about Galindez. His defensive movement is incredible, he has the last word in every exchange despite not initiating any of them. He continually draws Lopez onto him despite being the much smaller man. I couldn't help but think this highlights the biggest difference between him and Qawi as I'm sure Braxton would have played the role of pressure fighter here, rather than countering on the back foot.

Round 5 was very close but it showed how difficult Lopez can be when he pumps his jab and fights at range not trying to walk down Galindez. And even when Galindez is losing these middle rounds, he doesnt panic or abandon his strategy, he keeps at range hoping to land the jab first and draw counters on.

His discipline plays off as down the stretch his stamina and reflexes as still there and he begins to retake the battle of the jabs and can then counter easily as Lopez walks onto him.

I felt Galindez swept the championship rinds and you could see the panic in Lopez during the last minute of the final round. He knows that once again he gave up too much ground to the smaller man.

I'm actually convinced Haye watched this fight himself and tried replicating the game plan against Wlad and Valuev. He just wasn't good enough.

It always makes me wonder about Galindez though, he hit very hard and was always willing to exchange but never to begin the assaults himself. Very committed to his strateg, such a shame the Conteh fight never came off.


----------



## Luf

Fight 9: Conteh v Lopez
1: 10-10
2: 10-10
3: 10-9
4: 10-9
5: 10-9
6: 9-10
7: 10-9
8: 9-10
9: 10-9
10: 10-9
11: 10-9
12: 10-9
13: 10-9
14: 9-10
15: 10-9

147:140

Rounds 1 and 2 were unavailable but by all fight reports Conteh swept them. Round 3-5 was an incredible display of left hand mastery by Conteh with incredible hooking off the jab.

The middle rounds were all very very close as Lopez was able to force exchanges and Conteh was happy to oblige, this or baby saw his right hand come into play more but still not as much as he'd have liked because he was scared of breaking it again I assume. But he couldn't miss with that left hook and the times he did throw the right it landed quite solidly. 

The championship rounds were pretty tame by Lopez I thought. He seemed to be reduced to a statue on the end of Conteh's incredible jab. Round 14 and 15 were close.

All in all I can't believe some fight reports I've read stating this is a controversial fight, Conteh controlled it for me and won much more clearly than Galindez did.

Here's the thing, when Conteh, in previous fights, was more willing to let his right hand go, he was more easily drawn into slugfest type fights. This is the most clinical he ever boxed imo. Pre injury he'd have had a harder time against Lopez I think because Lopez seemed to do much better whenever they traded and that would have happened much more often, but because Conteh was more cautious he was more disciplined and that made him a much harder to beat fighter in my mind. 

Every so often we see heads about the best jabbing displays and I usually say Wlad v Chagaev. This fight has changed that opinion. If Conteh fought a disciplined fight like this vs Galindez I think I definitely favour him on points. Then again, with full confidence Conteh I'm not sure Conteh would or could be this disciplined. Due to lifestyle his prime wasn't really long enough for this question to ever be answered.


----------



## Luf

Fight 10: Johnson v Hamed
1: 9-10
2: 9-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 10-9
6: 10-9
7: 9-10
8: tko 

I'm not sure how comfortable I am in my lofty ranking of Naz because he never looks amazing on film. In this fight he won the first 4 rounds routinely by beating Boom Boom to the punch, but god he looks awful when he misses those uppercuts. 

Rounds 5 and 6 show Naz being schooled by cautious jabbing and movement, something MAB would employ when he ended his run.

Round 7 started off like that and you begin to think, this guy is ridiculously unco-ordinated and all you need is a good jab to beat him, but then that short left hook lands and you remember what it was that made Naz so special. In an instant momentum shifts and this time you get the sense he's genuinely hurt Boom Boom. He did catch him in round 3 but not this cleanly. 

Round 8 the onslaught continues and a heavy knock down wins Naz the match.

He was not technically good at anything apart from maybe cutting off the ring. But athletically he had blazing hand speed, very good upper body movement and other worldly power.

Yes he lost to MAB and probably would have lost to EM and JMM, but is being worse than those 3 such a bad thing? I'm gonna say no. I do feel Naz is an ATG and is a top 3 British ATG and no matter how off balance he looks or how hapless he is in a jabbing war, all it will ever take is one good punch and with his speed and reflexes the opportunity will almost always be there.


----------



## Luf

Fight 11: McCrory vs Curry.

1: 9-10
2: tko 

These were the two best Ww fighters in the world and according to the ring Milton was the number 1, according to the bookies that man was Curry.

Curry has very quick hands and a more than useful jab imo but against the rangy Kronk fighter he decides to neglect it and time hooks instead. He is able to beat McCrory to the punch and tag him consistently.

Almost has him out in round 1, finishes the job in round 2.

Knowing what we know about his troubles making weight, I do wonder how the fight would have fared had Milton been a bit more forceful with that jab, had he been able to prevent the early onslaught. Could Curry have really hooked like that for 12 rounds? 

He looked fearsome here though. I know he lost to Honeyghan but for me he's absolutely a great WW and one of the best ever to lace em up.


----------



## Luf

Fight 12: Mosley v Forrest 1
1: 10-9
2: 7-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: 10-9
9: 10-9
10: 9-10
11: 9-10
12: 10-9

110:116

Mosley won the feeling out round, the last round when Forrest was staying on his feet and he managed to steal 2 others on my card .

I wonder if a prime p4p number 1 has ever been dominated in such a fashion as this before. Tyson got beatdown but some detract that victory, no one can do here.

Forrest spent almost all his career prior to this relying on rangy 1-2 combinations but suddenly he could throw every hook and uppercut in the book. And that 10th runs body attack was horrifically brutal. 

Probably the favourite punch of Mosley's for me was a head snapping jab in the 12th when he caught Forrest backtracking, best jab I've ever seen him throw, but apart from that and an incredible chin there's not a lot I can say :lol:


----------



## Luf

Fight 13: Mosley v Wright 1
1: 9-10
2: 9-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 10-9
6: 10-9
7: 9-10
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: 9-10
11: 9-10
12: 10-9

Wright dominates the first 4 round but what struck me was the moderate success Mosley had to the body. If he had better head movement and defence he could have taken this fight. As it was Wright was big enough to impose his will and not let Mosley get any rhythm going.

Round 5 and 6 saw Mosley land a few big rights. Hes the power puncher here no doubt.

Wright sets him back behind the jab as normal business resumes until round 12.

Round 12 Mosley actually looks like he wants to win and suddenly Wright doesn't seem all that big as Mosley bullies him around. Where was the urgency earlier.

Wright wins 117-111 on my card.


----------



## Luf

Fight 14: Steele vs Lesnevich
1: 10-7
2: tko. 

What else can you say about this, utter domination. Hit him with whatever he wanted. A lot more refined than he was against Dundee.

I see this and I remember Golovkin is not the first bulldozer this division ever seen


----------



## Luf

Fight 15: Steele v Apostoli 2

Couldn't get the full version of this fight. But from that I did see it looked like for the first time Steele was respecting another man's power.

He couldn't walk through Apostoli as he had Lesnevich and Dundee. Instead he tried beating him up from range. 

The problem was Apostoli was half a step quicker and the more he closed the gap the more he was able to tag Steele. 

Eventually it wasn't so much Steel boxing from range as Steele surviving the inside attack which Apostoli pulled off with brutal efficiency.

Has a man ever been up for a fight as much as Apostoli was here? I highly doubt it. He was a man possessed, like Frazier v Ali, he just would not be denied.


----------



## Luf

Fight 16: Khaosai Galaxy vs Ellyas Pical
1: 9-10
2: 9-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 10-9
6: 10-9
7: 10-9
8: 10-9
9: 10-9
10: 10-9
11: 10-9
12: 10-9
13: 10-9
14: tko 

Pical started brilliantly. The first round was a none event but the next 3 rounds saw his superior movement and handspeed ensure he was getting off first with big combinations. He made Khaosai look hopeless during rounds 2 and 3.

Round 5 saw Khaosai up the ante and from that moment on it was a question of when, not if. Galaxy spent the next 10 rounds walking Pical down and pinning him on the ropes until eventually he wilted.

Galaxy is very much a Golovkin type fighter in my mind. It's fairly easy to picture him being out boxed in a given round, but once that power starts to tell the ending seems inevitable. 

This is a great fight, especially round 4.


----------



## Luf

Fight 17: Cervantes v Locche 2

1: 10-9
2: 10-9
3: 10-9
4: 9-10
5: 10-9
6: 9-10
7: 10-9
8: 10-9
9: 10-9
10: tko

Quite a tough fight to watch this. Locche always relied on his defence but tonight his attack was essentially none existent and his defence was not as good as it once was.

Cervantes couldn't miss with his jab and body punches, and whilst the first 2/3 hooks would get slipped, the 4/5 would usually land. 

I could have probably scored rounds 4 and 6 for Cervantes as they were close rounds. The rest were quite dominant or Kid Pembele though.

You just wouldn't think that 2 years prior Locche shut Cervantes out. 

That being said Antonio showed good range tonight, and even better patience. His jab and body attack eventually led to Locche having to stand and trade in the pocket and as I said previously, Cervantes was starting to get through with his hooks and quite seriously marked up the face of the man who was once untouchable. 

Cervantes looked brilliant here but Locche looked awful. One point in round 4, he ducks about 6 hooks, fires one back and then smiles. That was pretty much as good as it ever got for him.


----------



## Luf

Fight 18: Fuji v Locche

1: 9-10
2: 9-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: tko

Well this is a very different version of Locche than the one I saw last time out.

His defence was so on point, but more than that his hand speed was there. He could essentially land at will and avoid everything coming his way.

He was the epitome of slick here, but not even subtle dodges, he was moving his entire upper body the whole time.

This version of Locche is one of the best ever. His attack was still limited but how do you land solid punches on someone that good?

What a performance. Totally toying with the reigning champ.


----------



## Luf

Fight 19: Pryor vs Arguellp

1: 10-9
2: 10-9
3: 10-9
4: 10-9
5: 9-10
6: 10-9
7: 10-9
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: 9-10
11: 10-9
12: 9-10
13: 9-10
14: tko

This was a very close fight. The first half saw Pryor out work a very slow starting Arguello.

About half way through Alexis started seeing dividends for his body work as it slowed Aaron down and enabled him to time him, to perfection. 

I mean, how the **** did Pryor not get sparked out in rounds 8-13 almost every round he ate a ko blow flush and walked through it.

The last round showed a very good, second wind, which enabled Pryor to come out firing and ultimately overwhelm Alexis. 

What a great fight against a great opponent.


----------



## Luf

Fight 20: Frazier v Foreman

1: 6-10
2: tko 

What can really be said about this? The first 30 seconds were quite even. Foreman was respectful of Joe and went for the body shots to avoid that famous left hook.

About 30 seconds in Frazier tags George with a left hook and tries pushing him back. This was the beginning of the end as Foreman realised the hook didn't hurt him and that Joe couldn't move him.

From then it was push, jab, hook/uppercut in almost spam like fashion until finally the fight was called off.

I always wonder how the second half of a fight between these two would go, but then I remind myself this and realise it would never get that far.

Awesome detruction, one of the best in history.


----------



## Luf

Fight 21: Charles v Walcott

1: 9-10
3: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: tko 

Rounds 2, 4 and 5 were missing from the footage I saw.

This, for me, is the best Walcott. He really put it all together this night. He boxed beautifully on the back foot forcing Charles (who'd schooled him not that long previous) to be the aggressor and this enabled him to pick him off quite easily. He also mixed it up with well times ambush attacks preventing Charles getting any rhythm.

That being said the rounds I saw were all close. The usual ****y Walcott wasn't on show and he fought at a much more conservative pace than he has previously imo. 

He knockout was a thing of beauty. As he stepped forward Charles throws out a left hand which he brilliantly slips to deliver his own left hook/uppercut.

I troll on Walcott, quite a lot. Many because I don't like the way a lot of people say he deserved to beat Louis when they haven't watched the fight. But the truth is, he is clearly one of the most talented boxers in history.

I wouldn't say he's one of the best HW in history because of his size and style there's too many I favour over him but as a p4p boxer there aren't many better. 

The first half of his career was poor. The aberration against Layne was poor. But overall, from his comeback to the Simon loss until his capitulation in the Rocky rematch, he more than proved his greatness to me. Culminating with this beautiful punch against Charles.

This is one of the very best one punch finishes of a true ATG.


----------



## Luf

Fight 22: Benitez v Duran

1: 10-9
2: 9-10
3: 10-9
4: 10-9
5: 10-9
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: 10-9
9: 9-10
10: 10-9
11: 10-9
12: 10-9
13: 10-9
14: 10-9
15: 10-9

146-139

Always has me in two minds this fight. Obviously Duran was slipping at this point but motivationally speaking this was his ticket to a rubber with Leonard and he went on to box the ears off Hagler for 6 rounds.

Not just that, for every bit of untrained Duran was, Benitez was worse. He might just be the worst trained atg in history.

The problem here for Duran at this point is Benitez is bigger, quicker and stronger. Duran is trying to outbox him but doesn't have that same ferocity on his punches he always had.

Duran wins a small handful of rounds when he's able to back Benitez up and pressure him to the ropes. The issue is he isn't able to fight at this pace for the full fight and whenever he tries to box punch for punch he comes out second best.

This Duran is an excellent boxer still but against a quick athletic opponent he will greatly struggle. That ferocity he had against Leonard and De Jesus is gone. His pace is reduced and if a back foot boxer is able to beat him to the punch, I don't think he's got the fire to do what needs to be done.

That being said, I strongly believe this Duran is the best man Benitez ever beat. This version of Duran beats Palomino and Cervantes without doubt.


----------



## Luf

Fight 23: Zapata v Chang

1: 9-10
2: 9-10
3: tko 

The first fight was a brilliant battle but since that Zapata had some issues with his training and personal life.

Chang proved if you're anything less than 100% he will destroy you.

That's what happened here. He just kept punching until the ill prepared Zapata folded and wilted.


----------



## Luf

Fight 24: Perez v Yaoita

The highlight footage of this rematch is bizarre. Filmed from really strange angles which made it difficult to follow the flow of the fight sometimes.

The fight starts off cautiously with Yaoita enjoying a hand speed advantage and Perez trying to pick off punch for punch. Very difficult to say but the knockdown looked like a headbutt to me.

As the rounds wore on Perez went up a gear and started walking Yaoita down, backing him up with the jab and lashing hard hooks in wherever possible.

Despite the strange camerawork and the Japanese commentary the stoppage still seemed pretty inevitable and Perez just destroyed him.

I find it hard to discuss flyweights without discussing Gonzalez. Perez is without doubt one of the greatest we've ever had. But is he a greater flyweight than Gonzalez?

Stylistically they seem similar based of the fights I've seen of theirs. Obviously I've seen a lot more of Gonzalez though and against a wider variety of opposition.


----------



## Luf

Fight 25: McCallum v Curry

1: 9-10
2: 9-10
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: tko 

Curry looks awesome here. Much better than he did losing to Lloyd. 

He was outboxing McCallum, out punching him and winning every round.

Mike had to change his game plan entirely for this fight and began working the body. That's when he spotted Curry stepping back with his left low to avoid the right hook to the body. Unfortunately for Don it didn't allow him to avoid the left hook up top.

Boxing wise Mike looked very limited here against a superior athlete, but he showed he could win a fight with one punch. He did so here emphatically.


----------



## Luf

Fight 26: Williams vs Jack

The footage I watched of this only contains 3 rounds. 1,5and6

The first starts off with Jack boxing behind his jab trying to smother Williams up close. Jack bobs and weaves to avoid the hooks at range and then jabs his way inside.

Williams is reluctant to exchange up close at first, he prefers having room to work with but in the 5th he does start exchanging and wins the exchanges landing some big shots.

The final round is brutal. Williams lands a flush power shot at mid range, Jack collapses against the ropes and Williams fires a hellacious volley of shots, at one point he questions why he ref hasn't stopped the fight. eventually the ref steps in saving Jack from the punishment.


----------



## Slimtrae

Holyfield vs Byarm.
Toughest first fight for any pro. If Lionel wasn't such an arm puncher, Holy could have lost his 1st pro fight.
One round could go to Lionel due to his workrate, but Evander was in top shape.


----------



## Slimtrae

Sosa vs Williams 

What a shame the doctors stopped it. Both fighters unable to continue.
Yes they were.
Gr8 scrap, horrendous stoppage.
I had Merqi winning.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> Fight 24: Perez v Yaoita
> 
> The highlight footage of this rematch is bizarre. Filmed from really strange angles which made it difficult to follow the flow of the fight sometimes.
> 
> The fight starts off cautiously with Yaoita enjoying a hand speed advantage and Perez trying to pick off punch for punch. Very difficult to say but the knockdown looked like a headbutt to me.
> 
> As the rounds wore on Perez went up a gear and started walking Yaoita down, backing him up with the jab and lashing hard hooks in wherever possible.
> 
> Despite the strange camerawork and the Japanese commentary the stoppage still seemed pretty inevitable and Perez just destroyed him.
> 
> I find it hard to discuss flyweights without discussing Gonzalez. Perez is without doubt one of the greatest we've ever had. But is he a greater flyweight than Gonzalez?
> 
> Stylistically they seem similar based of the fights I've seen of theirs. Obviously I've seen a lot more of Gonzalez though and against a wider variety of opposition.


Perez and Gonzalez are very different.

Perez a bizarre stylist at times with weird trotting footwork and arguably harder one punch power than Gonzalez.

Gonzalez the master pressure fighter, varied offence and footwork and a more than serviceable defence.

P4P it's Gonzalez. At flyweight Perez is a top 10 ATG, Gonzalez isn't even top 20.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> Fight 25: McCallum v Curry
> 
> 1: 9-10
> 2: 9-10
> 3: 9-10
> 4: 9-10
> 5: tko
> 
> Curry looks awesome here. Much better than he did losing to Lloyd.
> 
> He was outboxing McCallum, out punching him and winning every round.
> 
> Mike had to change his game plan entirely for this fight and began working the body. That's when he spotted Curry stepping back with his left low to avoid the right hook to the body. Unfortunately for Don it didn't allow him to avoid the left hook up top.
> 
> Boxing wise Mike looked very limited here against a superior athlete, but he showed he could win a fight with one punch. He did so here emphatically.


Nice analysis.

Luckily for McCallum is hypothetical matchup a he's unlikely to ever be matched with anyone as gifted as Don Curry.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> Perez and Gonzalez are very different.
> 
> Perez a bizarre stylist at times with weird trotting footwork and arguably harder one punch power than Gonzalez.
> 
> Gonzalez the master pressure fighter, varied offence and footwork and a more than serviceable defence.
> 
> P4P it's Gonzalez. At flyweight Perez is a top 10 ATG, Gonzalez isn't even top 20.


There no flyweight I'd confidently pick to beat Roman.

Their offence is different and the pressure is not applied the same way by both, similarities definitely exist but maybe more differences do. Not that much footage of Perez is around.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> There no flyweight I'd confidently pick to beat Roman.
> 
> Their offence is different and the pressure is not applied the same way by both, similarities definitely exist but maybe more differences do. Not that much footage of Perez is around.


I'd pick quite a few to beat him. Although to be fair we'd need to take Roman from the lower weights as at flyweight he started rehydrating up to 126lbs(ish) and then you need to pit him against the likes of Saldivar amd Sanchez and they'd likely wreck him.

There's a fair bit of footage of Perez. Most that is uploadable I have uploaded but I've got a bit more.

I also have nearly two hours of Wilde. Now he was a special fighter and one I've done a massive u-turn on.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> I'd pick quite a few to beat him. Although to be fair we'd need to take Roman from the lower weights as at flyweight he started rehydrating up to 126lbs(ish) and then you need to pit him against the likes of Saldivar amd Sanchez and they'd likely wreck him.
> 
> There's a fair bit of footage of Perez. Most that is uploadable I have uploaded but I've got a bit more.
> 
> I also have nearly two hours of Wilde. Now he was a special fighter and one I've done a massive u-turn on.


Yeah i don't like getting drawn into the whole rehydration issue.

I just know out of every flyweight I've watched box, none have impressed me as much as Roman has.

Wilde is incredible, great reflexes and great power. incredibly great power.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> Yeah i don't like getting drawn into the whole rehydration issue.
> 
> I just know out of every flyweight I've watched box, none have impressed me as much as Roman has.
> 
> Wilde is incredible, great reflexes and great power. incredibly great power.


No flyweight has ever impressed you as much as Roman Gonzalez?

Let's not forget you once said Nonito Donaire was pretty much unbeatable at super bantamweight.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> No flyweight has ever impressed you as much as Roman Gonzalez?
> 
> Let's not forget you once said Nonito Donaire was pretty much unbeatable at super bantamweight.


I did and I was wrong there. limitations in his game were exposed and capitalised on.

Roman is still going strong. I suppose he could lose to Estrada, Caudras or Inoue next but it's hard to say how a loss to those would be perceived. It might class as too much wear and tear, old over night, hard to say.

But prime Gonzalez has been a thing of beauty to witness, more so than Canto etc imo.

Of course the problem with ranking active fighters is how dynamic the whole thing is. If he loses his next ten I doubt I'll hold him I'm such high regard.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> I did and I was wrong there. limitations in his game were exposed and capitalised on.
> 
> Roman is still going strong. I suppose he could lose to Estrada, Caudras or Inoue next but it's hard to say how a loss to those would be perceived. It might class as too much wear and tear, old over night, hard to say.
> 
> But prime Gonzalez has been a thing of beauty to witness, more so than Canto etc imo.
> 
> Of course the problem with ranking active fighters is how dynamic the whole thing is. If he loses his next ten I doubt I'll hold him I'm such high regard.


Thing is, I don't see him losing anytime soon. I think he'll go down as a true P4P ATG, especially if he clears out super fly then moves up and dethrones Yamanaka.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> Thing is, I don't see him losing anytime soon. I think he'll go down as a true P4P ATG, especially if he clears out super fly then moves up and dethrones Yamanaka.


I just hope we get the super fight vs Inoue.

If he signs off with say Yamanaka and Warren it would be incredible.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> I just hope we get the super fight vs Inoue.
> 
> If he signs off with say Yamanaka and Warren it would be incredible.


I'm not so sure it is a super fight anymore.

Inoue has looked world class but very beatable post-Narvaez, is injury prone and also sounds very despondent after his fights.

A far cry from two years ago.

Also, Harada is the man if you want someone that is better than him on film at fly. He'd likely batter Gonzalez too.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> I'm not so sure it is a super fight anymore.
> 
> Inoue has looked world class but very beatable post-Narvaez, is injury prone and also sounds very despondent after his fights.
> 
> A far cry from two years ago.
> 
> Also, Harada is the man if you want someone that is better than him on film at fly. He'd likely batter Gonzalez too.


Harada, Canto and Wilde all look exceptional on film imo.

Gonzalez looks the most complete so far.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> Harada, Canto and Wilde all look exceptional on film imo.
> 
> Gonzalez looks the most complete so far.


More complete than Harada? Harada had a better jab, and equal in footwork, pressure fighting, combination punching and in-fighting if we're being fair.

And I'm being really fair as Harada was better at all those things. But just for arguments sake, who has Gonzalez beaten that compares to Jofre? Has he beaten a better pure boxer than Fammo (we all know Harada won the first fight)?

A deadlier puncher than Medel?

And how many titles would Harada had won if there were 105, 108, 115 and 122 weight classes, 4 belts and 24 hour weigh ins if we're going on records?

Harada is greater in every way if you ask me.

Back to basics though: far, far, far better jab.

I would pick Gonzalez to beat Kingpetch though.


----------



## Flea Man

Gonzalez undoubtedly more complete than Canto, who was a one trick pony.

Weird thing is I never really rated Wilde. Now I've seen a fair amount of footage of him it is clear to me that had the defence (in terms of head movement, footwork and dictating of range) that Canto had and the offensive weapons of a Gonzalez and the power of an Antonio Avelar.

An absolute freak of a fighter. Especially considering he was a light flyweight (I don't mean he was an 108lber, just that he wasn't sitting around at 112) even for his day. 

He was long though. He was no midget. Long arms, and not too much of a Joe Louis-esque short puncher. 

Tremendous finisher though. He was more one to counter on the back foot or at mid-range then swarm all over his man when he hurt them rather than an out and put pressure fighter than a Gonzalez or Harada though, both of which assume the role of boxer-puncher in order to pressurise their opponent.


----------



## Flea Man

Anyway, Chang is better than Gonzalez, Wilde and Canto.

Harada too strong for him though.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> Gonzalez undoubtedly more complete than Canto, who was a one trick pony.
> 
> Weird thing is I never really rated Wilde. Now I've seen a fair amount of footage of him it is clear to me that had the defence (in terms of head movement, footwork and dictating of range) that Canto had and the offensive weapons of a Gonzalez and the power of an Antonio Avelar.
> 
> An absolute freak of a fighter. Especially considering he was a light flyweight (I don't mean he was an 108lber, just that he wasn't sitting around at 112) even for his day.
> 
> He was long though. He was no midget. Long arms, and not too much of a Joe Louis-esque short puncher.
> 
> Tremendous finisher though. He was more one to counter on the back foot or at mid-range then swarm all over his man when he hurt them rather than an out and put pressure fighter than a Gonzalez or Harada though, both of which assume the role of boxer-puncher in order to pressurise their opponent.


It's very easy to miss the defensive reflexes of Wilde due to the poor footage that exists. Because his style was to make them miss by inches it often looks like he's exchanging punches in a brawl.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> More complete than Harada? Harada had a better jab, and equal in footwork, pressure fighting, combination punching and in-fighting if we're being fair.
> 
> And I'm being really fair as Harada was better at all those things. But just for arguments sake, who has Gonzalez beaten that compares to Jofre? Has he beaten a better pure boxer than Fammo (we all know Harada won the first fight)?
> 
> A deadlier puncher than Medel?
> 
> And how many titles would Harada had won if there were 105, 108, 115 and 122 weight classes, 4 belts and 24 hour weigh ins if we're going on records?
> 
> Harada is greater in every way if you ask me.
> 
> Back to basics though: far, far, far better jab.
> 
> I would pick Gonzalez to beat Kingpetch though.


I think Gonzalez is more accurate, has better timing and puts his shots together better. plus he has much better fundamental boxing skills that allow to out box as well as out punch. There isn't anything at I would call Gonzalez weak at.

Obviously beating Jofre is far better than anything Gonzalez will ever achieve in his career. Would a peak Roman be able to turn the trick against a faded Jofre? We'll never know and I wouldnt like to guess.

If Harada and Gonzalez fought I'd expect Gonzalez to earn his respect, slow down his attack and pound out a decision.

Harada is incredibly great though. Incredibly so. I just class Roman as a better boxer for now. That could all change next fight out though.

As an aside I was always gutted the fight against Marquez didn't come off.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> I think Gonzalez is more accurate, has better timing and puts his shots together better. plus he has much better fundamental boxing skills that allow to out box as well as out punch. There isn't anything at I would call Gonzalez weak at.
> 
> Obviously beating Jofre is far better than anything Gonzalez will ever achieve in his career. Would a peak Roman be able to turn the trick against a faded Jofre? We'll never know and I wouldnt like to guess.
> 
> If Harada and Gonzalez fought I'd expect Gonzalez to earn his respect, slow down his attack and pound out a decision.
> 
> Harada is incredibly great though. Incredibly so. I just class Roman as a better boxer for now. That could all change next fight out though.
> 
> As an aside I was always gutted the fight against Marquez didn't come off.


Which Marquez is this mate? Am I missing something here? Or am I having a blonde moment myself?

Harada is an equal boxer to Gonzalez. Watch his back foot moments against Caraballo for instance. He must surely be seen as the better combination puncher as well?

They're different fighters of course. And we have different eyes as well.

As for Wilde it's a shame I can't share it but I have a fair amount of crystal clear footage of him now. Plus my research into his opponents has been very eye opening, and I don't mean the well known ones.


----------



## Luf

Flea Man said:


> Which Marquez is this mate? Am I missing something here? Or am I having a blonde moment myself?
> 
> Harada is an equal boxer to Gonzalez. Watch his back foot moments against Caraballo for instance. He must surely be seen as the better combination puncher as well?
> 
> They're different fighters of course. And we have different eyes as well.
> 
> As for Wilde it's a shame I can't share it but I have a fair amount of crystal clear footage of him now. Plus my research into his opponents has been very eye opening, and I don't mean the well known ones.


No, my bad. I mean Adrian Hernandez. got him confused with Hernan Marquez.

It depends what you look for in a combination puncher. my favourite all time combo puncher is JMM due to lack of wastage and the way in which the punches flow. He isn't as fluid nor fast or even as powerful as Pac who throws from all angles, but I prefer he combinations he puts together. This is along those lines. Gonzalez rarely wastes a punch but I still able to put them together beautifully.

Tbh I don't rank Harada at FLW anyways he's my number 4 BW and a top 35 on my p4p list.

I don't rank Gonzalez p4p yet, but he's provisionally gonna be my number 1 at FLW as I rank purely on beatability these days.

I remember you used to be a harsh critic of Wilde some I'm glad something has surfaced to change your mind. I pray for the day something similar happens with Bob Fitzsimmons as I'd love to pit him in fantasy matches and keep a straight face.

On another note, how shit is modern boxing now? I'm well sick of the match making and splintered championships. absolutely does my head in, hence my renewed interest in UFC.


----------



## Flea Man

Luf said:


> No, my bad. I mean Adrian Hernandez. got him confused with Hernan Marquez.
> 
> It depends what you look for in a combination puncher. my favourite all time combo puncher is JMM due to lack of wastage and the way in which the punches flow. He isn't as fluid nor fast or even as powerful as Pac who throws from all angles, but I prefer he combinations he puts together. This is along those lines. Gonzalez rarely wastes a punch but I still able to put them together beautifully.
> 
> Tbh I don't rank Harada at FLW anyways he's my number 4 BW and a top 35 on my p4p list.
> 
> I don't rank Gonzalez p4p yet, but he's provisionally gonna be my number 1 at FLW as I rank purely on beatability these days.
> 
> I remember you used to be a harsh critic of Wilde some I'm glad something has surfaced to change your mind. I pray for the day something similar happens with Bob Fitzsimmons as I'd love to pit him in fantasy matches and keep a straight face.
> 
> On another note, how shit is modern boxing now? I'm well sick of the match making and splintered championships. absolutely does my head in, hence my renewed interest in UFC.


Yeah, the last two weeks have been promising and the cruiserweight division is doing things the right way but it's really not been great as of late.


----------



## Trail

Benitez - Cervantes on at the minute. Benitez was 17. Fucking 17...and a World Champion.


----------



## Phantom

Trail said:


> Benitez - Cervantes on at the minute. Benitez was 17. Fucking 17...and a World Champion.


It's still incredible...


----------



## Trail

Phantom said:


> It's still incredible...


It never gets old. 17. I'd only just lost my virginity at that point, forget being a World Champion.:lol::good


----------



## Luf

Fight 27: Armstrong v Ambers 

Not enough footage to score this round for round. But I do feel Amber deserves more recognition for the fantastic display of skill here.

He fought on even terms with Armstrong in the pocket and won every filmed exchange at range. 

I can't really comment on the scorecards as I said, but the deductions were all for low blows and the action I saw was fitting of two in fighting legends. Both very defensively adept with two completely different slipping styles.

What a great showcase.

Strange seeing a none power punching in fighter at work. Always makes me marvel at the skill level because it isn't running and isn't beating a man up, it's the ultimate form of hitting without being hit when it's done in the pocket.

I rate Crawford really highly but he'd have his hands full against any of these two men. shame we live in such a poor LW era now.


----------



## Luf

Fight 28: Moore v Patterson

Again not enough footage to score but the highlights are good enough. 

Moore was the reigning LHW champ and the last man to challenge Rocky. He was also the favourite here.

Floyd was just far too quick and composed for Archie. Those hooks to the body in the third were vicious, the left hook that ended the fight was even more so.

Floyd wasn't a great HW, but he was a great fighter. he'd mop up the CW of today, no doubt.


----------



## Luf

Fight 30: Canzoneri vs McLarnin 1

This fight show how much if a defensive genius Canzoneri was.

He got caught bad in the first but rallied to survive, and then in the next filmed rounds we see him out hooking Jimmy, beating him to the punch and more importantly making him pay every time he misses.

Really could have been a knock out if he had a bit more pop to his punches and those last two rounds saw him batter Jimmy around the ring.

Great performance from a great champion. 

They referred to him as a 3 weight champion, I'm not sure how highly regarded LWW was back them so don't really know how to take that one.


----------



## Luf

Fight 32: Ross v Canzoneri

No matter what I have said previous the best jabbing display in boxing history was this fight.

Canzoneri has great footwork, great timing, great hand speed and great punch selection. All of that was outdone by a simple jab. A very active jab on the front foot, no less, but that was all Ross needed.

Such impeccable accuracy and timing meant he was a master of range all night and Tony could never get a foothold into the game. Had a prime ATG ever been as effectively neutralised before this fight? I doubt it.


----------



## Luf

Fight 33: Duran vs De Jesus

1: 9-10
2: 10-9
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: 10-9
9: 10-9
10: 9-10

What to make of this fight. One one hand you have the fact, the empirical fact that De Jesus seated Duran in the first and pretty much landed at will throughout the ten fights. You have the fact that De Jesus had no problem beating Duran to the punch and blocking most of the come back. 

You also have the clear notion that Duran could not be arsed, other than a flurry in 8th.

Always has me in two minds this fight. On one hand you have the results of the rematches. at 135 Duran dominated De Jesus. But you also have the dishonesty of putting all of this fight on poor training.

Ultimately I feel De Jesus is one of the best LW operators in history. He proved he could beat Duran and thus most of those who would follow. 

He also proved when Duran stepped it up, he had no answer.

My heart says give De Jesus all of the credit in the world for this clinic. my head says **** Duran.

Dr Jesus beats ever LW today and in most eras. war Esteban.


----------



## Luf

Fight 34: Blocker v Trinidad

1: 9-10
2: tko 

Man, what happened to this Tito throughout his career? Constant movement, bobbing and weaving, looking for the counter openings and not just rushing in.

Obviously Blocker had been twice stopped before but I reckon this is the best opponent he beat at WW (let's not get started on the fight with Oscar) and he looked very good in doing so.

Between this fight and the Oscar fight he began to resemble a come forward plodding EE type fighter. Is that just due to quality of opposition, weight draining taking it's toll or had he began to slip?

I don't know. But the motivated hungry Trinidad from this fight, the one who still respected his opponent, the one who wanted to make them miss and make them pay, this Trinidad looks incredible.


----------



## Luf

Fight 35: De La Hoya v Mosley

1: 9-10
2: 10-9
3: 9-10
4: 10-9
5: 10-9
6: 10-9
7: 9-10
8: 9-10
9: 9-10
10: 9-10
11: 9-10
12: 9-10

Had to stop watching so will catch he second half tonight but I have it 4-2 for Hoya at the midway point. Don't remember this being controversial but unless Mosley turns it around I don't see how he's gonna win this one.

Round 1 and 3 Mosley put on a great display of ambush boxing landing big right hands over the jab and staying away from Oscar's power, circling away from his jab.

The rest of the first half saw Oscar stalking behind body work and imposing his strength and size. Oscar looks well in control through 6.

Second half of the fight is a different story. Mosley out jabs and out hooks Oscar. Too quick and powerful for the title holder to deal with. 

Awesome performance by sugar Shane.


----------



## Luf

Fight 36: De La Hoya v Trinidad

1: 10-9
2: 10-9
3: 10-9
4: 9-10
5: 10-9
6: 10-9
7: 10-9
8: 10-9
9: 10-9
10: 9-10
11: 9-10
12: 9-10

I have it 116-112.

I've watched this a few times recently but from the point of view of defending the official scorecard. Trying to see which rounds can be justified for Tito.

Don't get me wrong I don't think this is a robbery, but it is Oscar's best performance for me. I can see it being scored a draw but if I score this fight honestly, Tito on deserves 4 rounds on my card. 

Oscar boxes beautifully and it's a shame how negative he was during the last two rounds. Considering a year later he'd slug it out with Mosley in round 12 I reckon it's fair to say he'd have survived a more aggressive finale here.

Tito doesn't necessarily come off as the lesser fighter here and Oscar is never comfortable with his power, but he is certainly the inferior boxer through 12 as Oscar made him look incredibly one dimensional for 9 rounds.

The way Oscar moves and nullifies Tito shows his immense skill level.

Is it an contradiction to say this is his best performance whilst not being a robbery? I don't know. I do know this though, Tito is easily the best opponent that you can argue an Oscar victory for. He clearly lost to Mosley, Vargas and Mayorga were inferior to Tito, Camacho Chavez and Whittaker were all faded. This is the best man who Oscar gave a winning performance against. I feel I can justify Tito winning it but in my heart of hearts I see clearly Oscar deserved this.


----------



## Luf

Fight 37: Toney v McCallum

1: 10-9
2: 10-9
3: 9-10
4: 10-9
5: 9-10
6: 10-9
7: 9-10
8: 10-9
9: 10-9
10: 10-9
11: 10-9
12: 10-9

117-111

This fight is incredible. Both men operating at such a high level. Up until round 8 almost every round is a swing round.

Mike had the better jab and body work. Toney had the better power shots and defence. Both have relatively slow feet which meant the fight was fought at close quarters throughout.

I know Toney usually gets more credit for the Nunn fight but for me, banking on your body work and landing big shots against a man who was tight at the weight is not as impressive as out boxing Mike in the pocket.

It was a draw on the official card but I challenge anyone to find me a better version of Toney than the one who entered the ring this night. A draw is an understandable card but a Toney victory is the right result here.

Amazing to believe this man would be using the same tactics against Sam Peter 15 years later and for those who don't believe in artifical bulking, ask yourself which version of Toney has most success against Peter, this peak version or the 15 year older fat version. For me it's the latter hands down.


----------



## Luf

Fight 38: Nelson v Fenech

1: 10-9
2: 10-9
3: 9-10
4: 9-10
5: 9-10
6: 9-10
7: 9-10
8: 10-9
9: 9-10
10: 9-10
11: 9-10
12: 9-10

111-117

I hate using the word robbery, so I'm not going to. Is there anyone out there who can find 7 rounds for Nelson in this fight?

I mean apart a 90 second spell on round 8, Nelson spent the last ten rounds pinned on the ropes taking a beating. He very nearly got stopped in the final round.

Fenech was a machine this night. Rapid fire combinations, incredible strength and stamina. Nelson could not deal with him. Incredible stuff from Fenech.

The only negative is how skilled the infighting was. Makes me pissed off at the state of HW boxing atm where infighting is substituted by a strong clinch game.


----------



## James Figg

Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon.

Holmes had made 14 successful defences of his World Title whereas Witherspoon had only had 13 professional fights in his career. The latter had shown some promise in his career but few gave him a chance to beat a Champion who was clearly the most dominant of his generation: after all, successful attempts after so few fights seldom happen.

However, from the first bell it was obvious that Witherspoon was not intimidated by Holmes and this made for a forgotten classic. 

There were moments in the fight where Witherspoon was hurt, moments where Holmes looked like he would be stopped (he would have been in 2017) and moments when each fighter demonstrated an ability to control the fight according to their game plan.

It was a classic sadly forgotten as such.

As for the outcome: let's forget the scorecard which ridiculously gave it to Holmes by 7. However, the other 2 judges went 115-113 apiece to each man and I gave it 116-113 to Holmes who just had a bit too much experience and could grind out a win when it mattered. I would, however, have loved to have seen a rematch as the result wouldn't have been certain and boxing missed out on something which could have been special.
I also think we should mourn the way Witherspoon's subsequent career panned out because against Holmes he looked, at times, as he would be possibly be the man some time soon..


----------



## Jdempsey85

Seems the judges for Hearns vs Leonard II were all doped up 112-112 113-112!!! Worse scorecards ive ever seen


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Clearing out my YT watch later

Julio Cesar Chavez vs Juan Laporte WBC 130 lb title

1 Laporte very close
2 Chavez pretty clear
3 Laporte
4 Laporte very close

*will say Steele is doing a great job refereeing calling fouls on both guys evenly nothing controversial pretty impartial

5 Chavez though Laporte came out with a big flush right. Got Laporte ahead but he is paying a price. His left eye is fucked up
6 Chavez

Midway 57 apiece and I am impressed with Chavez punching while backing up on his toes moving well creating opportunities. Laporte stormed back at the end of 6 but it was too little too late. Close fight could easily have Chavez winning 4 rounds or 5 as Laportes only really clear round was 3

7 Chavez
8 Chavez though Laporte exchanged well at the end of the round landing some solid punches
9 Laporte *10-8 on a good call by Steele, several warnings he went low the point came
10 Laporte, very close
11 Chavez but very close. Laporte did his share of good work but Chavez closed the round stronger
12Chavez though Laporte landed his fair share

Final 114-113

Surprised to see many score 12 for Laporte 1 judge had it real wide

Chavez definitely won but its close. Great fight


----------



## Phantom

Today i watched Pacquiao-De La Hoya...or as Teddy Atlas pronounces it "Dee La Hoya"...and I was impressed at how much of a buzz saw Pac was...and how badly he whipped Oscar...no matter if it was a past it version of ODLH. It's pointless to encapsulate the rounds...to give a play by play...it was a one sided, bitch of a beat down...and it was one fight away from Pac;s best performance, as if this one needed topping...over Ricky Hatton. Why comment on this fight? Well, this version of Pac was him at his near best...not that washed out version that met the cherry picking champ. That's my only observation besides to comment on what a master class beat down it was. That's all.


----------



## desertlizard

close fight but Pernell gave his first lost to the great JCC even though the ju*dges claim otherwise*


----------



## doug.ie

watching various victor galindez fights....was he ever in a bad one...real slugger


----------



## desertlizard

had it

monzon 10 10 10 9 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 149
griffith 9 9 9 10 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 136

damn what a great jab monzon had, griffith couldnt do much against the tallest guy best significant punches were carlos all the way, even knowing that his brother died violently he gave one hell of a match not falling into a mental breakdown


----------



## desertlizard

licata had the heart and will, but just couldnt keep up with the monster monzon


----------



## thehook13

My copy has no commentary. Just crowd and fighting. Fucking breath taking fight this was

Zero self preservation from pryor


----------



## Lester1583

thehook13 said:


> Zero self preservation from pryor


Notice the reaction to Arguello's low blow combo.


----------



## thehook13

Smashing through Tapias career. 

I have never looked at it from such an exclusive perspective. What a warrior that man was, he was the peoples fighter of New Mexico.

War TAPIA!


----------



## Phantom

desertlizard said:


> had it
> 
> monzon 10 10 10 9 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 149
> griffith 9 9 9 10 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 136
> 
> damn what a great jab monzon had, griffith couldnt do much against the tallest guy best significant punches were carlos all the way, even knowing that his brother died violently he gave one hell of a match not falling into a mental breakdown


As you probably know, this was Monzon's first fight after a lengthy lay off due to his wife shooting him in the arm and shoulder during a domestic incident (poor woman)...and the champ wasn't at his best. Not taking away from the great EG, but I think Monzon may have been a trifle overconfident for this one. Next came another less than sterling, but winning performance vs Jean-Claude Bouttier. Carlos wouldn't return to form again until Feb. of 1974 vs Jose Napoles.


----------



## Phantom

doug.ie said:


> watching various victor galindez fights....was he ever in a bad one...real slugger


:goodOne of my all time favorites, Galindez, and a great lightheavy champion.


----------



## desertlizard

Napoles commiting an atrocius suicide there


----------



## desertlizard

Phantom said:


> As you probably know, this was Monzon's first fight after a lengthy lay off due to his wife shooting him in the arm and shoulder during a domestic incident (poor woman)...and the champ wasn't at his best. Not taking away from the great EG, but I think Monzon may have been a trifle overconfident for this one. Next came another less than sterling, but winning performance vs Jean-Claude Bouttier. Carlos wouldn't return to form again until Feb. of 1974 vs Jose Napoles.


Napoles commiting an atrocius suicide there


----------



## Phantom

desertlizard said:


> Napoles commiting an atrocius suicide there


That's right. ...and what most people who criticize Monzon's victory because of the size disparity don't realize is that sooo many experts back then considered it to be a viable matchup and actually thought that Napoles would win...I know, because I was around back then.


----------



## desertlizard

Phantom said:


> That's right. ...and what most people who criticize Monzon's victory because of the size disparity don't realize is that sooo many experts back then considered it to be a viable matchup and actually thought that Napoles woul win...I know, because I was around back then.


Napoles was real good at welters,,,a real old wolf in his division but man, i just think to myself wondering, did he really think he had a chance? i mean yeah most do going up divisions but man, Napoles really wanted the big bull at MW


----------



## Phantom

desertlizard said:


> Napoles was real good at welters,,,a real old wolf in his division but man, i just think to myself wondering, did he really think he had a chance? i mean yeah most do going up divisions but man, Napoles really wanted the big bull at MW


You should have read what the experts in the boxing mags at the time were saying. Monzon was given no credit at all. they were saying that Napoles would make Monzon look like a wooden cigar store indian...would outspeed, outpunch and outclass him. Angelo Dundee was frankly amazed at how Monzon dominated Mantequilla...called him a "super champion". Now inretrospect, maybe Jose was too small for him, but that sure wasn't the prevailing concensus of the boxing world at the time.


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> You should have read what the experts in the boxing mags at the time were saying. Monzon was given no credit at all. they were saying that Napoles would make Monzon look like a wooden cigar store indian...would outspeed, outpunch and outclass him. Angelo Dundee was frankly amazed at how Monzon dominated Mantequilla...called him a "super champion". Now inretrospect, maybe Jose was too small for him, but that sure wasn't the prevailing concensus of the boxing world at the time.


Exactly.

It's the same with Tyson-Spinks.

The fight wasn't seen as a mismatch at all.
Or a near mismatch like, say, Mayweather-Marquez.

It was about P4P-supremacy.

It's the Napoles win that propelled Monzon to the top.


----------



## Pedderrs

Trail said:


> It never gets old. 17. I'd only just lost my virginity at that point, forget being a World Champion.:lol::good


I wouldn't lose my virginity for another...

Shit.


----------



## Slimtrae

Just re-watched Holmes vs Shavers II, damn how Holmes rose from that was amazing!!!


----------



## thehook13




----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

thehook13 said:


>


great fight

salidos had plenty


----------



## tommygun711

Gerald McClellan vs Julian Jackson 1 in HD. One of those showtime replays where they upscale the quality.

Fantastic middleweight brawl and a great display of power punching from both guys. Really puts Canelo-GGG to shame. McClellan really was a well schooled neat boxer in terms of the versatility he possessed. he had a very good quick jab and was a killer with that left hook to the body. Don't really understand people that say he was just a 1 dimensional puncher, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Gerald's chin is just rediculous in this fight, this is where I noticed the blinking thing with Gman, its possible he was already suffering brain trauma issues at that point.

Cinematic finish



http://imgur.com/height%3D424%3Bid%3DPVsodn1%3Btype%3Dgifv%3Bwidth%3D597


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Holyfield vs Dokes. Didnt score it but had it sitting in my watch later for a while. Kept reading how it was the heavyweight fight of the 80s. Holyshit what a very little discussed war. Dokes that night looked like he could be a handful for lots of top heavyweights

Lebedev vs Gassiev, I'm going to the Gassiev vs Wlodarcyzk fight in Newark tonight so I thought i'd give myself a little preview.

Scored it 114-113 7 to 5 with a knockdown to Lebedev. Really was not all that impressed by Gassiev who really just stalks and throws minimal punches. Seems to have gotten very far with cutting off the ring and taking a punch and being a hard puncher. He uses his feet a lot but doesnt throw much or move his upper body a big disparity in activity between his legs and upper body. Lebedev hardly hit the body and Gassiev wasnt very active with his hands and still he was tired in 11 and 12

I really dont understand the scores. I had it to Denis as did the UK TV guys card had it 115-112 for Lebedev. The judges had it by 4 points the other way to Gassiev. I'd love to see what rounds he was given. Lebedev early boxed him before the knockdown then boxed him well after it. Gassiev won a few in a row then Lebedev came on late

Lebedev to me won 2,3,4,6,7,11,12 and the TV guy gave Lebedev 10 which was close he also gave Lebedev the first which I did not. He did give Gassiev 3 and 4 but I disagree. I see lots of guys in the general talking up Gassiev for tonight. I havent seen Diablo since he lost to Drozd but if he hasnt lost a step I see no reason to believe he couldnt out box Gassiev especially if the punches dont bother him


----------



## thehook13




----------



## tommygun711




----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Went through the HBO best of 2017


Gonzalez vs Rung Vi Sai all 3 judges plus Lederman

1- 8-10 RV

2- 10-9 G only judge 3

3- 10-9 G all 3 plus Lederman

4- 10-0 G 1 and 2 plus Lederman

5- 10-9 G all 3 plus Lederman

6- 10-8 G all 3 plus Lederman and Steve Willis said last warning before taking the point

7- 9-10 RV all 3 plus Lederman

8- 10-9 G Lederman, judges cards not shown

9- 9-10 RV all 3 plus Lederman

10- 9-10 RV all 3

11- 9-10 RV all 3 plus Lederman

12- 10-9 G didnt see Harold or real judges scores for it

f: 114-112 for Gonzalez 7-5 in rounds

1 Feldman 114-112 RV...2 Lederman 114-112 RV...3 Roldan 113-113 Draw


Very good fight and for the most part I felt it was pretty easy to score as the judges and Lederman seemed to agree on a ton of rounds. I found it odd that Roldan didn't score the 4th for Gonzalez considering it mirrored 3 and 5 which he gave to Gonzalez. Round 2 i was a little against the grain so that helped make the difference on Julie Lederman and Glenn Feldmans cards. 


Very violent fight, Gonzalez came out kind of slow but the cut seemed to light a fire under his ass. I wont call this a robbery but I dont see how Rung Vi Sai got the nod. I think I could definitely switch round 2 but that would make it a draw. I dont think many rounds were close. There seemed to be clear winners in the rounds.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot)

Golovkin vs Canelo


1- 9-10 C and all 3 judges

2- 9-10 C all 3 plus Harold

3- 10-9 G judge 2 and 3

4- 10-9 G all 3 and Harold

5- 10-9 G judge 2,3 and Harold

6- 10-9 G judge 2,3 and Harold

7- 10-9 G 1, 2, and Harold odd judge 3 didnt score for GGG as it mirrors the last several

8- 10-9 G 2,3 and Harold

9- 10-9 G judges not shown but Lederman agrees

10- 9-10 Canelo all 3

11- 9-10 Canelo Lederman too but no judges shown

12- 9-10 canelo saw none of the other scores

f- 115-113 Golovkin


1) Byrd 118-110 Alvarez 

2) Moretti 115-113 Golovkin

3) Trella 114-114 even

Lederman I believe had 116-112


Going back and watching this fight with no commentary, crowd noise, booze in my system, suspense of the live event and a room full of people cheering this fight was a lot less exciting than it was with those other factors. I did not score it live because of those things and I dont like to score a fight or take a hard line without scoring a fight rbr and wont really disrespect the sport and judging by basing my opinion hard line without a real serious card. I did agree with Lederman a lot live and felt Golovkin won handily. When watching it again seeing Harold differ on 2 rounds was interesting. 


I know a common theme of the fight was Canelo won the first 3 easily and the last 3 easily and Golovkin won everything in between. I find this to be false as two judges gave Golovkin the third which I did too and Lederman gave Golovkin round 1 but not round 3. Not exactly cut and dry between 3 official judges and 1 former judge who is a regular TV scorer. I mean to me round 1 and 2 were very close. I know Golovkin really only landed jabs in round 1 but they were hard jabs. Golovkin was the ring general. Canelo threw flashy power shots but they didnt appear to really land clean maybe even not as clean as Golovkins jab. 


I had 4-9 as a sweep though I thought 5 was pretty tight despite everyone but Byrd giving it to Alvarez. The first 5 rounds reminded me much of De La Hoya vs Mayweather in ways. In that fight Oscar was able to use his size and jab to corner Floyd and then have ineffectual barrages on the ropes and corners while Floyd had the more accurate and flashy work. Difference being Golovkin was more consistent and defensively responsible and Alvarez was less accurate or effective as Floyd. One thing Golovkin fell short on that Oscar did vs Floyd was an inability to counter.


This fight to me fell into a pattern. Golovkin jabbing Alvarez to the ropes and trying to find a way to hit the elusive target. Canelo sees everything and makes most miss or rolls with them. Alvarez fires back and Golovkin backs out of range making Canelo miss but does not make him pay. Alvarez then goes back to the ropes and rinse and repeat. This to me in a subsequent viewing without the suspense and drama of not knowing who wins kind of results in a dull fight.


I was stunned to see Trella not give Golovkin round 7 only because 4-9 were very similar dare I say identical rounds and Trella scored all but 7 to Golovkin (9 wasnt shown in the breakdown so he may have differed but I dont know)..Given I had it 115-113 and Trella had 114-114 I would say its most likely the 7th is what costed Golovkin and to me its bizarre he scored it that way.


Round 10, 11 and 12 sort of reminded me of Froch vs Dirrel. Froch was ineffective but very aggressive and Dirrel was super accurate and sharp but was very negative. Alavrez showed a lot of bravado hanging on the ropes and lots of defensive savvy but from 3-9 or 4-9 his offense was pretty dead. In 10 on he suddenly decided to let his hands go more and was very effective. Dirrel turned on a dime late in the fight hurting Froch and landing constantly but just ran out of time. 


In the 12 rounds I really dont think Canelo ever hurt Golovkin but did land the highlight real shot of the fight. Golovkins highlight shot was a looping right around the guard cant remember the round. I do think Golovkin momentarily hurt Canelo in the early part of the 9th but Canelo masked it well and did well to survive and fire back.


All in all I cant say with any confidence was what Byrd was watching. I guess a draw is fair I mean Trella and I had very similar cards with Byrd and Lederman giving Alvarez the third and a large chunk of fans too. I wouldnt fight you tooth an nail if you said he deserved that round...Maybe you can argue the 5th to Canelo but 2 of 3 plus Harold saw it for GGG. At the same time Lederman gave GGG 10 and it was a close and competitive round. 7 rounds for Alvarez to me is stretch but 8 to Golovkin isnt necessarily. Moretti at 115-113 GGG and Trella even feel like the right card..I will say Alvarez had the body language of a beaten man in the announcing and post fight in ring interview


The rematch, if there is one, boy thats tough


Both seemed to take one anothers power. Both had plenty in the tank to go 12 and the last 3 were hard fought. I know Canelo gets the stick for his gas tank and he was heavily out worked but he finished strong. 


-GGG does he hit the body? Its a huge weapon for him in other fights but very unused here

-Does he jab and move more? I mean Alvarez came out very negative but he is historically bad at facing movers who make him lead. GGG has stuck and moved example Lemiuex, I thought he would have fought Canelo like that

-Can GGG counter him this time, something he didnt do. Or can he time him in an exchange like he did vs Geale and Wade and nail him mid punch. This didnt happen ever in the fight, there were not too many exchanges it was a lot of turn taking


-Canelo, did he see something in the 10th. Canelo to me was only truly hurt seeming in 1 round. Other than that he took everything very well. As mentioned he turned a switch late and I felt he swept 10 on or at the very least 11 and 12 which saved his ass. Did he see a flaw or did GGG just stall out? If Canelo opts to come out of his shell early and try and trade or being the aggressor how does this go for him. Does he get caught? Does he gas? Or maybe he takes initiative and wins clear.


----------



## desertlizard

*scorecard* *judges* *scorecard*
117 Chuck Williams 110
119 Dave Moretti 109
117 Carol Castellano 110

th0se were unreal i ha*d finit0 winning by 2 p0ints *


----------



## thehook13

1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 - mccallum
4, 7 - Watson

Ko'd in the 11 - Excellent fight from both men. Wall to wall action

Tremendous performance from Mccallum, all the technical skill, strength and conditioning, toughness, championship quality you can ask for in a fighter.

Watson had all the heart, audacity and toughness of a young challenger. Watson unfortunately outclassed in every department, not to mention a terrible style match up for Watson.

mccallum would have been a nightmare for eubanks and benn.


----------



## desertlizard

what a fuckfest by b0th men chiquita always g0t in a slugfest way t00 early,,, maybe thats why he l0st many battles, but man what a warri0r


----------



## thehook13




----------



## doug.ie

michael watson v errol christie


----------



## tommygun711




----------



## thehook13




----------



## Cloud




----------



## desertlizard

i mean, what a fuck zarate clearly w0n that match


----------



## Redzer

Florentino fernandez vs Dick Tiger. First time watching, cracking scrap.


----------



## Davie

Willie Pep vs Fabela Chaves

Not a lot of Pep footage so you have to take what you get, hadn't seen this before, complete control and manipulation of his opponent


----------



## Davie

Sonny Liston vs Cleveland Williams I




Sonny Liston vs Cleveland Williams II





Williams showed lots of ambition in the first couple rounds of the first before Sonny knocked that clean out of him in the third.
Williams started more tentatively in the opening round of the second fight then went for it in next round before getting pummelled with some ferocious finishing from Liston.

First time I've watched any Sonny Liston, that didn't involve Floyd Patterson or Ali, pretty brutal power punching


----------



## desertlizard

Extraordinary first round it makes you remember that classic first one by tommy and marvin no doubt, fight went bombs all the way legends says pryor cheated by drinking mixed cocaine after the 13th.... you might think the man had super powers after taking all those right hands by arguelllo but really who knows


----------



## DB Cooper

Started with Foreman-Lyle. Then Ali-Lyle, and now watching Lyle-Quarry.


----------



## Davie

DB Cooper said:


> Started with Foreman-Lyle. Then Ali-Lyle, and now watching Lyle-Quarry.


What's your thoughts on Lyle?

Wins against Bonavena, Ellis, Shavers and Bugner. Not a bad CV, along with taking on the very best of the era


----------



## DB Cooper

Davie said:


> What's your thoughts on Lyle?
> 
> Wins against Bonavena, Ellis, Shavers and Bugner. Not a bad CV, along with taking on the very best of the era


Extremely exciting to watch and underrated by many. That Foreman-Lyle fight, which I have watched previously, is really something else.

Lyle mainly only lost to high quality opponents, though Lyn Ball is someone I am unfamiliar with and must see if I can find any of his fights. In particular the Lyle one.


----------



## Pigg

Shavers vs Sims






Appalling referee ..


----------



## Phantom

Pigg said:


> Shavers vs Sims
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Appalling referee ..


Pigg Wilson!!


----------



## Pigg

Do you know the Pigg?


----------



## Phantom

Pigg said:


> Do you know the Pigg?


No, but I think you've got the best avatar around and name...I'm a fan I guess.


----------



## Phantom




----------



## Phantom




----------



## Phantom




----------



## Pigg

Phantom said:


> No, but I think you've got the best avatar around and name...I'm a fan I guess.


Most kind igg


----------



## tommygun711

What a combination puncher Louis was.


----------



## MAG1965

AlFrancis said:


> Just watched Hearns Barkley 1. Who would of thought that would of happened at the time? Just before the knockout, Hearns corner are shouting to him, "keep them downstairs". Bad advice! I think it was Gil Clancy who said afterwards "just goes to show,anything can happen in boxing! Barkley "I didn't have time to bleed".


I like Barkley, but he really never excelled with others. It just seems like he had Hearns number and no one else. He was exciting, but sort of a open fighter. The fact is had Tommy stayed focused in the first fight, he was going to stop Barkley on cuts between rounds.


----------



## tommygun711

MAG1965 said:


> The fact is had Tommy stayed focused in the first fight, he was going to stop Barkley on cuts between rounds.


That's a ridiculous statement. And it's not much of a fact. You can do this with any fight. "Had Foreman paced himself vs Ali better he wouldn't have been knocked out." You don't afford Duran the same kind of excuses for some reason, maybe because Tommy Hearns is your favorite fighter.


----------



## hazza

clay-liston.

a masterclass lesson in boxing :good


----------



## Trail

hazza said:


> clay-liston.
> 
> a masterclass lesson in boxing :good


I was talking to my Dad about this fight yesterday. I know fuck all mainly about HW boxing, but my Dad was talking me through the fight. Clay put on a masterclass.

The second fight was a little bit strange, was Liston paid to take a dive?


----------



## hazza

Trail said:


> I was talking to my Dad about this fight yesterday. I know fuck all mainly about HW boxing, but my Dad was talking me through the fight. Clay put on a masterclass.
> 
> The second fight was a little bit strange, was Liston paid to take a dive?


it was strange, it seemed sonny could get up, later i think he claimed he didn't hear the count properly, the fight actually continues for a bit then the ref realised the 10 had been reached and he called it for ali.

so yeah a slight blemish (not ali's fault) on an otherwise unbelievable career.

but that first fight was a thing of beauty. as was ali-foreman. another masterclass on how its done :good


----------



## Trail

hazza said:


> it was strange, it seemed sonny could get up, later i think he claimed he didn't hear the count properly, the fight actually continues for a bit then the ref realised the 10 had been reached and he called it for ali.
> 
> so yeah a slight blemish (not ali's fault) on an otherwise unbelievable career.
> 
> but that first fight was a thing of beauty. as was ali-foreman. another masterclass on how its done :good


Ali - Frazier first fight also - I know Joe got the job done, but hadn't Ali been out of the ring for three years other than two tune up fights?


----------



## hazza

Trail said:


> Ali - Frazier first fight also - I know Joe got the job done, but hadn't Ali been out of the ring for three years other than two tune up fights?


yep and joe frazier had every right to win that fight too, after all the shit ali had been saying about him.

especially since joe had helped ali get his boxing license back.

there's a video on you tube with cus (tyson's trainer) telling ali - and actually demonstrating to him - how he was going to lose to joe frazier.

cus was right on every point - it happened exactly the way he said.

the man was a genius.


----------



## Trail

hazza said:


> yep and joe frazier had every right to win that fight too, after all the shit ali had been saying about him.
> 
> especially since joe had helped ali get his boxing license back.
> 
> there's a video on you tube with cus (tyson's trainer) telling ali - and actually demonstrating to him - how he was going to lose to joe frazier.
> 
> cus was right on every point - it happened exactly the way he said.
> 
> the man was a genius.


I'm having a look at that video now.


----------



## DB Cooper

Been watching as many of Steve Collins' fights as I can get my hands on lately. Always enjoyed watching the guy and listening to his podcast with Tris Dixon got me back in the mood for more.


----------



## hazza

Trail said:


> I'm having a look at that video now.


so what did you think mate?


----------



## Barack Obama

Name a fighter (or fighters) who was undefeated against undefeated fighters and only lost by KO to fighters who were KO'd


----------



## LondonSkylines

Watching Norton - Holmes after work. I really don't watch The Easton Assassin enough. Fantastic footwork, lateral movement, hand speed, terrific powers of recovery and a world class jab. Would have loved to see peak Holmes in the 90's, instead of the 80's.


----------



## dkos

The other day I watched a fun early fight in Dariusz Michalczewski's light heavyweight title run against Roberto Dominguez. Michalczewski was dropped by a cracking uppercut in the first round, rocked again in the second, but turned it around by finishing Dominguez suddenly with a flush left hook.


----------



## kf3

i've never been comfortable with the idea that barkley had hearn's number.

it's a great style/attributes matchup for him and he did great in both fights, but i think the first fight shows enough that if they fought 10 times hearns is going to win 3-5.


----------



## tommygun711

kf3 said:


> i've never been comfortable with the idea that barkley had hearn's number.
> 
> it's a great style/attributes matchup for him and he did great in both fights, but i think the first fight shows enough that if they fought 10 times hearns is going to win 3-5.


Like you said I think stylistically it is just a terrible match up for Hearns. Also not the ideal weight class for Hearns.

Hearns will probably always light up Barkley early on but.. Barkley has the power to hurt Hearns and if he can absorb Hearns' assault (as Barkley proved he can) he likely wins most of the time.


----------



## LondonSkylines

Lewis Holyfield II - 20 years today!


----------



## One Man

Hamed-Bungu.

spectacular performance and entrance by Naz.


----------



## Boxed Ears

I can't even find the historic forum.


----------



## MAG1965

Where is the historic or classic forum? Just one thread?


----------



## MAG1965

Boxed Ears said:


> I can't even find the historic forum.


I can't either. I think they got rid of it.


----------



## Boxed Ears

:lol: Yeah, it's gone. I was just being a twat, Mags.


----------



## MAG1965

tommygun711 said:


> That's a ridiculous statement. And it's not much of a fact. You can do this with any fight. "Had Foreman paced himself vs Ali better he wouldn't have been knocked out." You don't afford Duran the same kind of excuses for some reason, maybe because Tommy Hearns is your favorite fighter.


I don't think that is a ridiculous statement. Barkley was leaning over in pain and cut over both eyes. This was going to happen, just that Tommy got careless.


----------



## MAG1965

Boxed Ears said:


> :lol: Yeah, it's gone. I was just being a twat, Mags.


Too bad. Goodboxing forums are hard to come by.


----------



## hazza

just watched this one again:










and this time i actually scored it.

my card:

leonard 113
hearns 115


round123456leonard1098101010hearns9101010810


round789101112leonard991010810hearns1010991010

feel free to disagree :good


----------



## Conall Cernach

Great fight. Terrible decision.


----------



## Phantom

MAG1965 said:


> I can't either. I think they got rid of it.


That's no big loss for this place. The sport of CHB is* politics*...that's where the passion of this forum is.


----------



## jonnytightlips

Pacquiao vs Cotto.

Was in work today and this fight just popped into my head. Got home and saw that Sky's YouTube channel had just uploaded it.

Anyway pretty fuckin destructive from Pac. His speed was simply phenomenal. Such a fuckin pity that the Mayweather fight didn't happen directly after this. Still think Mayweather would have won but Pacquiao was a different animal back in 09.


----------



## gumbo2176

I got a bit nostalgic last night and watched several highlighted versions of Sugar Ray Robinson's fights. I watched him against LaMatta, one of their 5 fight series where the ref called the fight in the 13th round due to Jake taking a serious ass whipping for several rounds before the stoppage.

Then I pulled up the Marciano/Walcott fight where Rocky was trying to take Walcott's belt and was behind on all judges cards going into the 13th round and he KO's Walcott with one of the most vicious right hands ever landed on another man.

Then the KO bug hit and I watched several highlighted videos of top KO's in boxing that encompassed all weight classes.


----------



## bobalachko

Castillo v corrales 1
Pacquiao v Marquez 1,4
Cotto v margarito 1,2
Pacquiao v margarito 

Some great fights in them. I little weird I still feel cheated by Margarito from the first Cotto fight. Only really watched him fight Pac because I wanted revenge.


----------



## DynamicMoves

Watched De la hoya vs Trinidad the other day. Has it 8-4 for ODLH.


----------



## Vanessa1234

hi


----------



## Boxed Ears

Vanessa1234 said:


> hi


hello


----------



## Bob Weaver

Vanessa1234 said:


> hi


How you doin?


----------



## zoe

hazza said:


> just watched this one again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this time i actually scored it.
> 
> my card:
> 
> leonard 113
> hearns 115
> 
> 
> round123456leonard1098101010hearns9101010810
> 
> 
> round789101112leonard991010810hearns1010991010
> 
> feel free to disagree :good


You might like joining www.eyeonthering.com, you can save and discuss all your cards.


----------



## Trail

Bob Weaver said:


> How you doin?


On the pull, Bob?


----------



## Trail

Watched Jorge - Sweet Pea. I love Jorge Paez.


----------



## Bob Weaver

Trail said:


> On the pull, Bob?


Mistaken identity. I thought I knew them, but I was thinking of Vanessa 1233, not Vanessa 1234.


----------



## Trail

Bob Weaver said:


> Mistaken identity. I thought I knew them, but I was thinking of Vanessa 1233, not Vanessa 1234.


Don't let Mrs Bob find out about Nessie, y'ken.


----------



## One Man

Watched Ibeabuchi-Byrd.

interesting clash of styles and again we see what could have been.
After 2 rounds Ike had pretty much figured him and Chris had not many more tricks up his sleeve.
That brutal left hookercut in the 5th was savage and perfectly timed.
Ibeabuchi really was the heir apparent and apart from Lennox I cant see anyone beating him then.


----------



## Trail

Just put this on.






@Deebo


----------



## One Man

Gatti-Ward II.

hell of a fight,round 3 was epic.

Not many people know but Gatti broke his hand in this fight aswell.


----------



## Trail

First one today...


----------



## Trail

This is going on now...






...then this...


----------



## Sweet Pea

Rewatched Ricardo Lopez/Rosendo Alvarez I. Still had Alvarez winning. 67-65, even with the bogus point deduction.


----------



## REDC

I watched a couple amateur fights (he never turned pro) of Cuban Enrique Carrion. Interesting is that Casamayor replaced him at the Olympics because he injured himself.

8-time Cuban champion, 1 gold 2 silver at the WC's.

Look. at. the. skills!


----------



## Sweet Pea

REDC said:


> I watched a couple amateur fights (he never turned pro) of Cuban Enrique Carrion. Interesting is that Casamayor replaced him at the Olympics because he injured himself.
> 
> 8-time Cuban champion, 1 gold 2 silver at the WC's.
> 
> Look. at. the. skills!


He's good at bouncing around on his toes, I'll give him that.


----------



## REDC

Sweet Pea said:


> He's good at bouncing around on his toes, I'll give him that.


For sure. Plus a dozen other things.


----------



## Sweet Pea

REDC said:


> For sure. Plus a dozen other things.


Yeah? That's about all I noticed, apart from the size and age difference between he and his opponent.


----------



## REDC

Sweet Pea said:


> Yeah? That's about all I noticed, apart from the size and age difference between he and his opponent.


Bummer for you man that that's all you noticed. If only you knew. Pure boxing does not get any better than that. What you see there is the cream of the crop Cuban boxing has produced. No true boxing fan would not love it and feast their eyes on it..

You're just blinded by butt-hurt. Or you DKSAB.

Was he older with more experience? Yes.
Is someone with more experience necessarily better? Of _course_ not.
Does the age difference makes him less skillful? Hell no.
He was just infinitely more talented. A 5-year younger version would've beat him just as handily.

Good luck sourpuss. :hi:


----------



## Sweet Pea

Why would I be butt-hurt? I watched expecting to be impressed by a fighter I've never heard of and pretty much immediately realized why I'd never heard of him. I just saw a guy dancing around rather crudely and pot shotting against a smaller, far less experienced opponent. 

That's about as rudimentary as "pure boxing" gets. Shows what you know about technique if you're impressed by that. There were probably hundreds of better Cuban amateurs.


----------



## REDC

Sweet Pea said:


> Why would I be butt-hurt? I watched expecting to be impressed by a fighter I've never heard of and pretty much immediately realized why I'd never heard of him. I just saw a guy dancing around rather crudely and pot shotting against a smaller, far less experienced opponent.
> 
> That's about as rudimentary as "pure boxing" gets. Shows what you know about technique if you're impressed by that. There were probably hundreds of better Cuban amateurs.


:lol:


----------



## Sweet Pea

Looks like I won that exchange.


----------



## Trail

All the stars aligned for Hopkins...

Watching it for the 90th time...


----------



## Trail

Sunday night treat. Chico Time.


----------



## desertlizard

provodnikov has shitty ass defense, but his heart is pure gold, thats why his face always gets the shit out of it at the end of his fights, for me he got this one by one point that KO at the end paved the way


----------



## kf3

joshua kiltshcko
joshua ruiz
fury wilder
fury wilder 2
wilder ortiz
wilder ortiz 2

classic might be the wrong definition, but classic is def the right definition, what a period for hw boxing we got to watch.


----------



## 46 Wins

Just rewatched The Eastern Assassin extend his unbeaten record with a 10th round TKO over the late great Muhammad Ali.


----------



## 46 Wins

Now I rewatched Holmes come out of retirement to attempt to reclaim the heavyweight championship of the world but at this stage and against Iron Mike that was a suicidal mission. So much heavier and out of shape here compared to when he beat Ali, I think it was 6-7 years between the two fights. I shall be continuing with the Holmes reruns later with Holmes vs Spinks I or if anyone wants to recommend a Holmes fight I'll be happy to watch


----------



## kf3

foreman frazier - george had a really good plan for nullifying frazier, pushing off with (often) both hands aint really what you supposed to do, but boy did it work.

ggg canelo 1 - i'm in the tenth so no score, but canelo showed some elite skills and toughness already. i didn't give him enough credit for this performance when it happened.

toney jirov - what fucking fight, nutshits aside jirov showed some real skill too.

toney nunn - y'all know


----------



## 46 Wins

kf3 said:


> ggg canelo 1 -* i'm in the tenth so no score, but canelo showed some elite skills and toughness already. i didn't give him enough credit for this performance when it happened.*


I had it 116-112 for Canelo when I watched it live, that was one of his finest displays, tremendous defence and counter punching, I've watched it back too after all the moaning from the GGG lot but I didn't see anything different than I saw the first time.


----------



## kf3

golota bowe :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: frikin lunatic.



46 Wins said:


> I had it 116-112 for Canelo when I watched it live, that was one of his finest displays, tremendous defence and counter punching, I've watched it back too after all the moaning from the GGG lot but I didn't see anything different than I saw the first time.


scoring is subjective but 4 rds seems wide. no way was it a def win for gg tho


----------



## kf3

golota bowe 2

bowe did better, but not by nearly enough.

dq was a bit early, but was a race between golota winning or losing so whatever. lewis fight goes the same regardless.


----------



## 46 Wins

Just watched Roy Jones outclass James Toney to claim the 168lb world title, Roy was cream of the crop in his time, no one could stop him :bbb.


----------



## kf3

hagler sibson. i watched every hagler fight before but tbh didn't remember this at all. sibson strong and brave but outclassed by a mile.

hagler-minter. almost prime hagler v faded never as good minter. great performance by hagler. fucking saaker fans were a disgrace. both men were gentlemen in the post fight interviews.


----------



## kf3

46 Wins said:


> Just watched Roy Jones outclass James Toney to claim the 168lb world title, Roy was cream of the crop in his time, no one could stop him :bbb.


toney did a shit job training for that fight. not unusual but vs roy it was the nail in the coffin. i feel both men got their respect a decade ago and don't today, but i suppose time moves quick in boxing. it'll come back around and in a decade they'll both be overrated.


----------



## 46 Wins

kf3 said:


> toney did a shit job training for that fight. not unusual but vs roy it was the nail in the coffin. i feel both men got their respect a decade ago and don't today, but i suppose time moves quick in boxing. it'll come back around and in a decade they'll both be overrated.


I dunno, can Roy ever be overrated? Number 1 P4P, pure dominance in the 90's, athleticism that was unrivalled I myself haven't seen anyone match it up until today even. People are definitely not giving him or Toney the respect today I agree, but some of that's got to do with them not knowing when they're past it and accepting that father time has caught them, when you go on too long it starts undoing what was done before. If I tell a youngster that Roy was P4P #1 and then they look him up and see him getting chinned by Danny Green and Enzo Mac they'll wonder if I had a bump on the head, because now they have to go so far back into his boxrec to see what I'm on about as all his wins in the past decade were against journeymen.


----------



## 46 Wins

kf3 said:


> hagler sibson. i watched every hagler fight before but tbh didn't remember this at all. sibson strong and brave but outclassed by a mile.
> 
> hagler-minter. almost prime hagler v faded never as good minter. great performance by hagler. fucking saaker fans were a disgrace. both men were gentlemen in the post fight interviews.


RIP Minter, I haven't seen Hagler-Minter for years, that's certainly going on the schedule


----------



## kf3

46 Wins said:


> RIP Minter, I haven't seen Hagler-Minter for years, that's certainly going on the schedule


tbh is pretty one sided, minter was cut by one of the first punches and never in it. the sibson fight is a better hagler and much better fight in general.


----------



## kf3

46 Wins said:


> I dunno, can Roy ever be overrated? Number 1 P4P, pure dominance in the 90's, athleticism that was unrivalled I myself haven't seen anyone match it up until today even. People are definitely not giving him or Toney the respect today I agree, but some of that's got to do with them not knowing when they're past it and accepting that father time has caught them, when you go on too long it starts undoing what was done before. If I tell a youngster that Roy was P4P #1 and then they look him up and see him getting chinned by Danny Green and Enzo Mac they'll wonder if I had a bump on the head, because now they have to go so far back into his boxrec to see what I'm on about as all his wins in the past decade were against journeymen.


jones toney is one of the fights that didn't need but should have had a rematch.

jones speed advantage was always gonna be big, but a 100% toney does a lot better imo.


----------



## 46 Wins

kf3 said:


> tbh is pretty one sided, minter was cut by one of the first punches and never in it. the sibson fight is a better hagler and much better fight in general.


I just watched them both, he cut up Sibson too, how about that triple jab in the 5th? Tremendous, I thought that was gonna break his cheekbone, I hadn't seen that fight before. The Minter fight I always remember for the crowd trouble afterwards but rewatching it now I noticed how the referee called time to have Minter's own corner check on his cut, that wouldn't happen now of course but on seeing that previously I would have just assumed that was the doctor but it was his cornerman, I know doctors were ringside I'm just not sure why they weren't called to check in in the neutral?

But Minter's tactics were all wrong from the first bell, it's great to see his heart and bravado, if I was undisputed and at home I'd probably be the same, Calzaghe vs Lacy type with Calzaghe taking it to the challenger but Minter must have known Hagler was better than him, I would have told Minter to jab, grab and move and try to make it to the end and pray for some hometown cooking. Did they have a rematch?


----------



## 46 Wins

Also rewatched a more recent fight earlier today, Golovkin vs Macklin, that was a prime GGG, Macklin went down like someone shot him, the commentators were talking about Macklin's previous performance against Maravilla and how he should replicate that if possible but GGG never gives you a minute to think, he was all over the Irishman


----------



## 46 Wins

The rematch between SRL and the Hitman 8 years after their first fight. I managed to to watch an extended/special broadcast where the judges were interviewed after and they talked about their socrecards which were very controversial as most viewers including myself had Hearns comfortably winning the fight. When 2 of them explained that they gave SRL two 10-8 rounds without him ever having had dropped Hearns, you understood what you didn't before if you never saw this interview the first time you watched the fight. Not good.

Good fight though, worth a rewatch if you haven't seen it in a while, even at that stage in their careers you knew you were watching two of the best.


----------



## 46 Wins

Just watched an 11-8 Eric Windbush upset the former Light-Heavyweight champ Matthew Saad Muhammad with a 3rd round TKO. When they say 1 punch can change the course of a fight this is what they mean.


----------



## 46 Wins

Naseem Hamed vs Vuyani Bungu was today's pick, this the 14th defence of Naz's WBO World Featherweight title and he made it in London. The whole show was pretty entertaining including the fight, Bungu landed a smashing uppercut but Naz ate it like a monster, Bungu must have been terribly deflated watching his best punch bounch off that iron jaw. The champ arrived on the 'Aladdin' magic carpet and was walked in by the artist then known as Puff Daddy. Bungu's entrance wasn't too shabby either, he had some 'magic man' I think they referred to him as, he came in ahead of Bungu making plenty of noise in his native tongue. In the post-fight interview following the successful defence of the crown, he called out Erik Morales but unfortunately we didn't get that one that would have been a treat.


----------



## sale22




----------



## Dynamito

Tommy Morrison vs Art Tucker.

Electric performance by Morrison.

But watched this fight because randomly Art Tuckers name popped in my memory.. He had an interesting story.

Art Tucker had spent 12 years of a life term in prison as an accomplice to murder.
Learnt to box in prison. His first couple of professional fights were in Rahway prison. Before they suspended the programme.

Was released at 29 after the governor commuted the life term from what I recall. and was trained by Teddy Atlas for some time. He won his first 15 fights and received quite a bit of coverage cus of his background.

Last I heard he was involved in Community work after his retirement. And lived a productive and crime free life.


----------



## ThinBlack

Michael Spinks-Johnny Davis. Good scrap.


----------



## Trail

I watched Hector Camacho - Ray Mancini. I was also up all night here in the UK with the Alvarez - Smith fight. RIP Callum Smith.

Camacho Cool.


----------



## john_newman

I want to see khubaib back in the ring.


----------



## 46 Wins

john_newman said:


> I want to see khubaib back in the ring.


Who's that?


----------



## 46 Wins

I just watched a nice entertaining scrap between the then unbeaten Sultan Ibragamov and 6'8 Lance Whitaker. Ibragamov dropped Whitaker multiple times before the end came but also had a point deducted for low blows and although he didn't protest himself I thought that was harsh, the opponent is 6'8 and the punches looked to be on the belt to me, didn't matter in the end though as a punch opened up a cut on the right eyebrow of Whitaker in the 7th and he unfortunately took this as an opportunity to quit telling the doctor that he can see "a little bit" and then when asked if he wanted to continue multiple times he was not committal and eventually told the doctor he can stop it.


----------



## 46 Wins

Not very historic but 8 years ago today's rewatch took place originally, ahead of tomorrow night's rematch I dug out the tape to watch the then undefeated P4P star Roman 'Chocolatito' Gonzalez successfully defend his WBA World Junior-Flyweight Title against Mexico's Juan Francisco Estrada. What a great fight too plenty of action and grit shown from both men, Estrada I thought came on stronger late on whereas Gonzalez started stronger, a fight of two halves but very tough to score with many close rounds. 

At the end I had the champion retaining his title as did the judges although I only had it so because I couldn't split em, 114-114 on my card but official scores of 118-110 and 116-112 twice sealed it for Gonzalez on the night. I thought that was extremely harsh but no problem with the eventual outcome. Tomorrow night we'll see if it's repeat or revenge!


----------



## hazza

Tyson vs long.

Young mike was terrifying.


----------



## 46 Wins

Just watched Roy Jones Jr get Richard Frazier out of there in the 2nd, Frazier was terrified, ran for 5 minutes and then half-heartedly got up at 9 didn't show the ref he wanted to continue despite not being badly hurt and the ref quite rightly ended the contest, disappointing from Frazier who had an opportunity to try and claim Jones' WBC & WBA Light Heavyweight titles, he moaned to the ref "I got up at 9" sure, he did, so did Charles Martin when he "fought" Joshua but like Martin, Frazier didn't want to fight, by the time the winner was being annouced Frazier had a big smile on his face and so clearly wasn't too upset after all. 

Was the first time I saw a boxer (Frazier) proudly represent his police department employer in the ring (or former employer) he wore a police cap and had NYPD on his shorts, I thought that was very strange, I hope he had more guts when he responded to an emergency call than he did in the ring on this night.


----------



## kf3

watched a lot of hagler fights over the last month or however long it's been.

i used to view the antufermo fights in a dimmer light, but man did hagler look good in there against a top level guy(and he won both of them, fuck corruption)


----------



## Trail

Watched Naseem Hamed's pro debut yesterday. reflexes of a cat and a punch of a man twice his weight.


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## Rattler

I watched Randall v Chavez I.


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## Trail

Rattler said:


> I watched Randall v Chavez I.


Wasn't JCC 89-0 when this fight happened? I didn't watch it first time out but saw the rerun.


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## One Man

Trail said:


> Wasn't JCC 89-0 when this fight happened? I didn't watch it first time out but saw the rerun.


He was undefeated in 90 fights,he had the Sweet Pea draw from a few months earlier.


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## gumbo2176

Not sure if this qualifies, but I went down the worm hole watching "Best KO" videos. Best body punch, best left hook, best straight right, etc. and there are some brutal KO's in those videos. 

I especially love the delayed reactions to many of the body shot stoppages----------guy takes a liver shot, steps back 2 steps with his hands still up and all of a sudden he's on his knees doubled over in pain.


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## 46 Wins

Not every fighter uses his height and reach advantages effectively over their smaller challenger but no such problem occurred when the 1984 Olympic Gold Medallist took on a fighter 2 years his junior but with 7 more pro fights under his belt. 

Orlando Canizales dropped Paul Gonzales in the 3rd round of their first fight in Nevada against the run of play too, it caught me by surprise but it was nicely set up, a distraction lead hand was thrown with no intention of doing any damage but instead take the champion's eye of the real threat and a lightning fast right hand followed over the top and put him on the canvas. Gonzales was straight up though and Mills Lane was happy for the contest to continue.

An accidental head clash in the 10th gave Gonzales the first cut of his career and the commentators gave Canizales that round to add to the 10-8 scored in the 3rd but it was a pretty comfortable win for the defending NABF flyweight champion. With official scores of 118-109(x2) and 117-110 Gonzales retained his title. The feeling I left with was that it was a tad early for Canizales, he looked a bit green and was in there with the Olympic champion, lots of movement and feints but ultimately that was largely ineffective as he was kept at bay all afternoon with a good double and triple jab from the longer man.


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## Dynamito

46 Wins said:


> Not every fighter uses his height and reach advantages effectively over their smaller challenger but no such problem occurred when the 1984 Olympic Gold Medallist took on a fighter 2 years his junior but with 7 more pro fights under his belt.
> 
> Orlando Canizales dropped Paul Gonzales in the 3rd round of their first fight in Nevada against the run of play too, it caught me by surprise but it was nicely set up, a distraction lead hand was thrown with no intention of doing any damage but instead take the champion's eye of the real threat and a lightning fast right hand followed over the top and put him on the canvas. Gonzales was straight up though and Mills Lane was happy for the contest to continue.
> 
> An accidental head clash in the 10th gave Gonzales the first cut of his career and the commentators gave Canizales that round to add to the 10-8 scored in the 3rd but it was a pretty comfortable win for the defending NABF flyweight champion. With official scores of 118-109(x2) and 117-110 Gonzales retained his title. The feeling I left with was that it was a tad early for Canizales, he looked a bit green and was in there with the Olympic champion, lots of movement and feints but ultimately that was largely ineffective as he was kept at bay all afternoon with a good double and triple jab from the longer man.


Paul Gonzales was the winner of the Val Barker trophy for being the most outstanding Boxer at the 1984 Olympics. Quite an accomplishment considering he was part of talent packed American team that produced legends.

Despite the hype and early promise his professional career never reached the same heights.

He fought for the World Title against Orlando Canizales in a rematch and Orlando got his revenge. Canizales came out like a man posessed attacked relentlessly in the first Gonzales got cut from an accidental cut, the fight was stopped in the second round on the advice of the doctor.

Gonzales top level career pretty much ended that night . He fought four more times went 2-2 and retired just over a year later. At the age of 27.

He is currently awaiting trial for allegedly molesting a teenage girl.

https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/0...molested-by-boxer-who-worked-for-parks-agency


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## 46 Wins

Dynamito said:


> Paul Gonzales was the winner of the Val Barker trophy for being the most outstanding Boxer at the 1984 Olympics. Quite an accomplishment considering he was part of talent packed American team that produced legends.
> 
> Despite the hype and early promise his professional career never reached the same heights.
> 
> He fought for the World Title against Orlando Canizales in a rematch and Orlando got his revenge. Canizales came out like a man posessed attacked relentlessly in the first Gonzales got cut from an accidental cut, the fight was stopped in the second round on the advice of the doctor.
> 
> Gonzales top level career pretty much ended that night . He fought four more times went 2-2 and retired just over a year later. At the age of 27.
> 
> He is currently awaiting trial for allegedly molesting a teenage girl.
> 
> https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/0...molested-by-boxer-who-worked-for-parks-agency


I'll be taking a look at the rematch, I understand Canizales was already champion by the time the rematch came around. 27 is young, sounds like potential going unrealised though at least he did fight for the world title that's an achievement in itself, not everyone can win one so that's OK but let's hope he's not guilty of these charges, I wonder why he didn't stay in boxing after his retirement, maybe he just didn't love it anymore?


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## Dynamito

46 Wins said:


> I'll be taking a look at the rematch, I understand Canizales was already champion by the time the rematch came around. 27 is young, sounds like potential going unrealised though at least he did fight for the world title that's an achievement in itself, not everyone can win one so that's OK but let's hope he's not guilty of these charges, I wonder why he didn't stay in boxing after his retirement, maybe he just didn't love it anymore?







He retired due to chronic injuries in that era there was a "no pain no gain" mentality and mantra. So athletes instead of doing proper re-hab for injuries often pushed themselves harder in training which led to many a career ending prematurely.

Gonzales was employed as a boxing coach by LA county to work with at risk youth ( The pending charges are related to his work as a boxing coach). And did so for many years and remained a local celebrity in East LA. Oscar De-La Hoya who came from the same neighbourhood and the same amateur boxing gym went on to do what Gonzales was supposed to in the professional ranks.

Anyways the above 7 minute Transworld Sports documentary gives a bit more insight into his life and career.


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## 46 Wins

Dynamito said:


> He retired due to chronic injuries in that era there was a "no pain no gain" mentality and mantra. So athletes instead of doing proper re-hab for injuries often pushed themselves harder in training which led to many a career ending prematurely.
> 
> Gonzales was employed as a boxing coach by LA county to work with at risk youth ( The pending charges are related to his work as a boxing coach). And did so for many years and remained a local celebrity in East LA. Oscar De-La Hoya who came from the same neighbourhood and the same amateur boxing gym went on to do what Gonzales was supposed to in the professional ranks.
> 
> Anyways the above 7 minute Transworld Sports documentary gives a bit more insight into his life and career.


That was a good watch I'm sorry it was so short (like his pro career). So he did stay in boxing, these pending charges could fetch him up to 18 years if convicted, that's a real sentence if given (would never get or even be facing that here would he?), obviously I can have no idea of his guilt or innocence but the State are claiming they have lewd texts, photos etc. yet Gonzales has still entered a not guilty plea so what to make of it?

That untouched mural that sits in LA which he's so proud of probably won't stay pristine if he's convicted (or maybe it's already been defaced by now). The Department for Parks reacted by banning ALL 1-1 closed door interaction between adult and child at the gym now because of these allegations and have already accepted liability by paying the complaining witness compensation before trial so all that can't be good news for Gonzales' defence team, based on the little info I've got it's not looking good for him at all.


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## Dynamito

46 Wins said:


> That was a good watch I'm sorry it was so short (like his pro career). So he did stay in boxing, these pending charges could fetch him up to 18 years if convicted, that's a real sentence if given (would never get or even be facing that here would he?), obviously I can have no idea of his guilt or innocence but the State are claiming they have lewd texts, photos etc. yet Gonzales has still entered a not guilty plea so what to make of it?
> 
> That untouched mural that sits in LA which he's so proud of probably won't stay pristine if he's convicted (or maybe it's already been defaced by now). The Department for Parks reacted by banning ALL 1-1 closed door interaction between adult and child at the gym now because of these allegations and have already accepted liability by paying the complaining witness compensation before trial so all that can't be good news for Gonzales' defence team, based on the little info I've got it's not looking good for him at all.


Well I dont want to prejudge the man. And wait till he has his day in court. All I can say is his name will be dirt in his old neighbourhood.

If found guilty the backlash will be huge considering the degree of adulation he received. People will be very disappointed.

Documentary is a bit too short.
But the following article by
The LA Times in 1987. Is like an eyewitness account of how huge a star he was he could command $20,000 for a motivational speech at a corporate seminar there was even a discussion of a Hollywood movie about his life story major corporations were interested in having him promote their products. For a brief period of time he was on his way to becoming a superstar...! Things did not quite work out that way his professional career was a flop... Instead a kid named De La Hoya emerged from the same hood. And won olympic Gold in 1992 and became a marketing sensation and received corporate sponsorship from every direction and then some. Paul Gonzales by that time was already retired and became yesterdays news.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-07-05-tm-1965-story.html


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## 46 Wins

A 40 year old Mike McCallum was the target for the undefeated Roy Jones Jr making his 175lb debut, 13 years between them when the bell sounded and you could see that the speed of Jones Jr was an insurmountable advantage for The Bodysnatcher. Credit to him he came forward all night and had pockets of success in some of the rounds but a trip to the canvas in the 10th from a combination he didn't see coming told us the end was nigh for the Jamaican. 120-107 on all three cards saw Jones Jr claim the WBC interim title, he was very respectful to the veteran McCallum after the fight and even told Larry Merchant that he didn't mean to drop him lol

A word too on the MC Mark Beiro, when introducing the fighters he would repeat their surnames as if to give the effect of having an echo just like David Diamante does now, perhaps that's where he got it from perhaps not but it's the first time I can recall hearing someone other than Diamante doing it


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## 46 Wins

And today it was a rewatch of a good recent classic, Floyd Mayweather Jr defending his WBC World Super-Featherweight title against the then unbeaten Diego Corrales (RIP). Unfortunately the vid I watched didn't have the ringwalks or post-fight interviews but it did show the warm moment after the fight between Mayweather Jr and Sr where they embraced and exchanged words in the ring, it was great to see since usually what comes to mind when thinking about their relationship is the showdown in the gym when Floyd kicked his dad out.


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## lamont

On the repeating announcers ..I seem to remember some of the old time mc's did it but the one I remember in the late seventies early eighties was Ed Derian ..he did all the big fights in new Jersey and philly. .I think he was an actor too !!


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