# ESPN's best 25 fighters of the last 25 years



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/14969734/ranking-top-25-pound-pound-boxers-25-years

Here's what they have so far

*25. Terry Norris 47-9, 31 KOs *
From 1990-97, Norris had three separate reigns as WBC junior middleweight champion and made 16 title defenses.

*24. Gennady Golovkin 34-0, 31 KOs *
Golovkin has won 21 consecutive fights by knockout and made 15 consecutive title defenses, both of which are more than any other current champion in boxing.

*23. Winky Wright 51-6-1, 25 KOs*
In his career, Wright won every major version of the junior middleweight title, starting with the WBO version in 1996 and culminating with a 2004 victory over Shane Mosley for the WBC, WBA and lineal titles.

*22. Naseem Hamed 36-1, 31 KOs *
Hamed made 15 defenses of his WBO featherweight title from 1995-2000, the third most in featherweight division history.

*21. Miguel Cotto 40-5, 33 KOs*
Cotto is the only Puerto Rican fighter in history to win world titles in four different weight classes.

*20. Roman Gonzalez 44-0, 38 KOs *
Gonzalez is one of two fighters from Nicaragua to win world titles in three different weight classes, joining Hall of Famer Alexis Arguello.

*19. Wladimir Klitschko 64-4, 53 KOs*
Klitschko made 18 heavyweight title defenses from 2006-2015, the third most in heavyweight history.

*18. Erik Morales 52-9, 36 KOs*
Morales won titles in four different weight classes, tied with Juan Manuel Marquez and Jorge Arce for the most among Mexican boxers.

*17. Andre Ward 29-0, 15 KOs*
Ward is one of two American fighters in the past 25 years to win Olympic gold and a world title in boxing (Oscar De La Hoya). but who was david reid, guess they forgot

*16. James Toney 76-10-3, 46 KOs*
Toney was named the Fighter of the Year by The Ring magazine and the BWAA in 1991 and 2003, joining Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao as fighters to win the award twice in the past 25 years.

*15. Shane Mosley 49-9-1, 41 KOs*
Mosley is the only man to defeat Oscar De La Hoya twice, both times winning lineal world titles (welterweight in 2000 and junior middleweight in 2003).

*14. Joe Calzaghe 46-0, 32 KOs*
From 1997 to 2008, Calzaghe made 21 title defenses, tied for the most in super middleweight history and tied for third-most in boxing history.

*13. Marco Antonio Barrera 67-7, 44 KOs*
Barrera's trilogy bouts with Erik Morales resulted in two Fights of the Year as nominated by the BWAA in 2000 for their first bout and 2004 for their third.

*12. Lennox Lewis 41-2-1, 32 KOs *
Lewis won the lineal heavyweight title in 1998, becoming the first British-born boxer to become the lineal world heavyweight champion since Bob Fitzsimmons in 1897.

*11. Felix Trinidad 42-3, 35 KOs *
Trinidad made 15 defenses of his IBF welterweight title from 1993 to 2000, the second-most in welterweight division history.

*10. Ricardo Lopez 51-0-1, 38 KOs*
Lopez finished his career with a record of 25-0-1 (19 KOs) in world title fights, including 21 consecutive title defenses from 1990-1999.

*9. Juan Manuel Marquez 56-7-1, 40 KOs *
Marquez was involved in the RING Magazine and BWAA 2009 Fight of the Year against Juan Diaz and 2012 Fight of the Year against Manny Pacquiao.

*8. Pernell Whitaker 40-4-1, 17 KOs*
Whitaker won the lineal and WBC welterweight champion from Buddy McGirt in 1993 and made eight title defenses from 1993-1997.

*7. Evander Holyfield 44-10-2, 29 KOs*
Holyfield is the only fighter in history to win a portion of the World Heavyweight Championship four times.

*6. Oscar De La Hoya 39-6, 30 KOs*
De La Hoya won world titles in 6 different divisions, more than any American boxer in history.
*
5. Julio Cesar Chavez 107-6-2, 86 KOs*
From 1989-1993, Chavez made 12 defenses of his WBC junior welterweight title, the most in that division's history

*4. Roy Jones Jr. 62-9, 45 KOs*
Jones Jr. was named Fighter of the Decade for the 1990s by the Boxing Writers Association of America, amassing a record of 36-1 with 14 title fight wins.

*3. Bernard Hopkins 55-7-2, 32 KOs *
Hopkins had the longest reign as world middleweight champion (10 years, 2 months and 17 days), making a middleweight record 20 consecutive title defenses.

*2. Manny Pacquiao 57-6-2, 38 KOs *
Pacquiao has won world titles in eight different divisions, more than any boxer in history.

*1. Floyd Mayweather 49-0-0. 26 KOs*
Mayweather has five of the top six largest gates in Nevada boxing history, including $72 million for his fight against Manny Pacquiao.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

A truly awful and arbitrary list.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

The Schedule


DateRankingWed., March 30Nos. 25-16Thurs., March 31Nos. 15-11Fri., April 1Nos. 10-6Mon., April 4No. 5Tues., April 5No. 4Wed., April 6No. 3Thurs., April 7No. 2Fri., April 8No. 1


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## Nucking Futs (Jul 12, 2013)

I quite like Calzaghe but how the fuck is he above the likes of Morales, too much gets put into his undefeated record.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

There's a lot wrong with this list, but I have to say that Lewis should absolutely be in the top 10 at least. Idk who else is on this list, but I know it'll be a stretch finding 10 fighters in the past 25 years better than him


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

April fools?


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> April fools?


I wish


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715297378392256512


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## Trail (May 24, 2013)

So we have Dan Rafael, the fat Starfucker writing this list. I'm happy not to look at what he and Brian Campbell have to say.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

:rofl 10-6


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## Crean (May 19, 2013)

Morales as 18 is where I stopped.


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## Crean (May 19, 2013)

I kept reading and noticed Lewis at 12. The clear no.1 heavyweight of the past 25 years at number 12. OK then..


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## mick557 (Jun 6, 2013)

four of the top five are gonna be Mayweather, Pac,Hopkins and Jones jr. The other one?


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

I wouldn't mind seeing Joe Cal lower on the list, but ranking him ahead of guys with far, far greater accomplishments is a joke. The man rated right below him beat De La Hoya twice. Joe never even fought somebody as good as ODLH.

Morales definitely deserves to be higher.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Crean said:


> I kept reading and noticed Lewis at 12. The clear no.1 heavyweight of the past 25 years at number 12. OK then..


Tyson's gonna be placed ahead of Lewis and Holyfield. Whitaker number 8 behind Oscar SMH


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## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

mick557 said:


> four of the top five are gonna be Mayweather, Pac,Hopkins and Jones jr. The other one?


I'm genuinely struggling to think who they're going to rank 5th. It's probably somebody really obvious but I can't think who


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## Crean (May 19, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Tyson's gonna be placed ahead of Lewis and Holyfield. Whitaker number 8 behind Oscar SMH


Which is retarded. From 1991 Tyson was not the best heavyweight.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

I guess Paulie Mallignaggi is in the top 5 then.


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## Juiceboxbiotch (May 16, 2013)

mick557 said:


> four of the top five are gonna be Mayweather, Pac,Hopkins and Jones jr. The other one?





MichiganWarrior said:


> Tyson's gonna be placed ahead of Lewis and Holyfield. Whitaker number 8 behind Oscar SMH





Glove_Game said:


> I'm genuinely struggling to think who they're going to rank 5th. It's probably somebody really obvious but I can't think who





Rob said:


> I guess Paulie Mallignaggi is in the top 5 then.


It's Chavez.

It's gonna be something like:

1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Hopkins
4. Jones
5. Chavez

or

1. Mayweather
2. Jones
3. Pacquiao
4. Hopkins
5. Chavez


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I wish
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715297378392256512


I'm struggling to see what "Better" means if it's not who accomplished more and who has the best resumes? how do they prove they are the best if they don't have the resume to prove it? I don't get it?

Resume/accomplishments always factored into P4p


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I'm struggling to see what "Better" means if it's not who accomplished more and who has the best resumes? how do they prove they are the best if they don't have the resume to prove it? I don't get it?
> 
> Resume/accomplishments always factored into P4p


I was wondering the same. Anyone can look "better" if they feast on handpicked opponents.

Personally, I think the whole P4P thing is played out. Everyone has different criteria and allowances. It's nothing more than a tool for fans to discuss, but in the real world, P4P means little.

That said, if one is going to do this type of list, it should be based on actual accomplishments as well as who is seen as better. The latter is too subjective though.


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

Whitaker below De La Hoya looool

Fucking scumbags

7 places below Mayeather, fucking disgusting


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

horrendous


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Casual HOOOOOK said:


> Whitaker below De La Hoya looool
> 
> Fucking scumbags
> 
> ...


:rofl


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl


Post mcgrain/fleaman's modern list!


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

How else Pernell supposed to get his crack?

Well I mean there's some detractions you can make I guess -- I don't think the weight made much difference in the cases of Nelson and Chavez, who are both undeniably great fighters. They looked the same size, they weren't really smaller men nor did they look bloated (Chavez came in only 2 lbs above 140) -- I think Whitaker just simply made them look that sluggish and inept. They couldn't do (hardly) anything. It also depends on how highly you rate the ability of McGirt and Vasquez. I think Buddy was every bit the top P4P technician he was recognized as at the time, Vasquez has a shout for a top ten at 154, was pretty much the best guy doing it at the weight and then there's the obvious, real size difference factor there and Whitaker carried 154 DREADFULLY. Pea was also robbed at getting a quicker start at unifying with the Ramirez I debacle in France.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

There's been two undisputed lightweight champions within the last 40 years: Duran and Whitaker.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Post dope modern KGR shit, not that 80s schnaz!







Done.

Scare the pubes off your wonderboys of today, bruh. Anyway, 80s is for NBA, Sci-Fi, Thrash Metal and a little boxing @mrtony80 -- Not Hip-Hop. :thumbsup


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Boolsheeto did diddly dick at welterweight, Nelson never competed at 135 prior to and not again until eight years later (beyond irrelevant), McGirt had one arm, he didn't beat Vasquez and Ramirez was washed up, Pineda overrated. Hang yer hat on old ass Brazier and Freddie Pendleton tho, lil pee body crackhead.


'Bout sums it up. Lucky to have made the Top 25.

LOL @ This arbitrary as FUCK "Last 25 Years". Counting Half Careers. Don't fucking bother.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> 'Bout sums it up. Lucky to have made the Top 25.
> 
> LOL @ This arbitrary as FUCK "Last 25 Years". Counting Half Careers. Don't fucking bother.


What's your top ten last 25?


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## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

mick557 said:


> four of the top five are gonna be Mayweather, Pac,Hopkins and Jones jr. The other one?


Donaire. :yep:


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nit-picking, nerdy bickering, top 25, top 1, best, worst, underrated, overrated, my list, your list


Whitaker is above any of that shit.

Even haterz respect him.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Whitaker is above any of that shit.
> 
> Even haterz respect him.


Yes, exactly.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I am not going to make a 'Top 10' list of the "last 25 years" because I refuse to consider someone like Whitaker while having to disregard the vast majority of his lightweight career including one of his best wins against an ATG. I'm not going to rate someone like Chavez strictly from 1991 on... It's fucking blasphemous. Anyway, it's Jones at the top for me based on these horseshit stipulations.


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## Crean (May 19, 2013)

Glove_Game said:


> I'm genuinely struggling to think who they're going to rank 5th. It's probably somebody really obvious but I can't think who


It'll be tyson..


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715297378392256512
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715964432246050816
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715964680141938688


- I see dumb people.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

JeffJoiner said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing Joe Cal lower on the list, but ranking him ahead of guys with far, far greater accomplishments is a joke. The man rated right below him beat De La Hoya twice. Joe never even fought somebody as good as ODLH.
> 
> Morales definitely deserves to be higher.


Yes he did, he fought Hopkins.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Jesus fucki


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## poorface (Jun 14, 2013)

The only plausible justification for ranking Morales so low is punishment for late career PED usage, but then you see where Mosley, Toney, and presumably Jones are ranked and that reasoning goes out the window.

The Whitaker stuff is nonsense as well as you guys already noted.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Jesus fucki


I was far less butthurt about this "Last 25 Years" criteria about four years ago. :lol: I'd just sit there and make the case for Whitaker all day and win. It was fun. Now, it's come to a point where the Nelson win wouldn't count, the majority of his lightweight reign as a whole is largely erased and can't even reflect on virtuoso performances such as the aforementioned, Ramirez II, Haugen... The one-punch KO of Nazario doesn't counter either. No, that's fucking shit.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yes he did, he fought Hopkins.


:rofl Jeff has been spittin the same narrative about Calzaghe for years. He just doesn't like British fighters. Period.


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## poorface (Jun 14, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I was far less butthurt about this "Last 25 Years" criteria about four years ago. :lol: I'd just sit there and make the case for Whitaker all day and win. It was fun. Now, it's come to a point where the Nelson win wouldn't count, the majority of his lightweight reign as a whole is largely erased and can't even reflect on virtuoso performances such as the aforementioned, Ramirez II, Haugen... The one-punch KO of Nazario doesn't counter either. No, that's fucking shit.


Except I don't get the sense that ESPN is even abiding by that kind of criterion with any kind of consistency, but instead counting the entire careers of anyone who's been active in the last 25 years. Or at least that's what I think is going on, as they list Nelson and Ramirez as his signature wins and I don't know how you could disqualify Whitaker and others' pre-1991 work but still end up with Chavez in your top 5.


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## Tage_West (May 16, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I wish
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715297378392256512












we just going to stick with "better" yeah...ok.
clueless and trying to justify it.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

poorface said:


> Except I don't get the sense that ESPN is even abiding by that kind of criterion with any kind of consistency, but instead counting the entire careers of anyone who's been active in the last 25 years. Or at least that's what I think is going on, as they list Nelson and Ramirez as his signature wins and I don't know how you could disqualify Whitaker and others' pre-1991 work but still end up with Chavez in your top 5.


Well, that obviously makes it far worse.


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## Tage_West (May 16, 2013)

vargas, Casamayor, manny, PBF, chavez, tyson, tzsyu, Castillo, Hopkins, Nunn, Curry, RJJ, Vitali, Pong, Corrales.


no? 

it will be hilarious by the end of it all. 
Tyson, 
Manny, 
Floyd, 
RJJ, 
Chavez.

i can see it happening.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I wish
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715297378392256512


Oh, right. The "eye test" argument.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Calzaghe would be lucky to crack 25.


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## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

They really needed to break the list up over that long of a period?


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## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

How the fuck is Lennox at 12? I could see Wlad there, but Lennox? He should be top 5.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> April fools?


It is convenient how it's #p4PRANK lol


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Yes he did, he fought Hopkins.


Ancient Bhop and Old RJJ. Plus Lacy,Kessler and a faded Euank. What a resume.



Hands of Iron said:


> Done.
> 
> Scare the pubes off your wonderboys of today


G Rap is serious, bro. Keep that shit in the hip hop thread.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I was far less butthurt about this "Last 25 Years" criteria about four years ago. :lol: I'd just sit there and make the case for Whitaker all day and win. It was fun. Now, it's come to a point where the Nelson win wouldn't count, the majority of his lightweight reign as a whole is largely erased and can't even reflect on virtuoso performances such as the aforementioned, Ramirez II, Haugen... The one-punch KO of Nazario doesn't counter either. No, that's fucking shit.


Yeah :lol: I think we did this thread back at the old place, but a top 10. But this one is awful. I need to troll Dan on his twitter more. How does he have our job!?


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> - I see dumb people.


:lol: GGG is on there but no Kostya


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The last 25 years had some great talent though. We bitch and moan now with the state of things but it hasn't been bad IMO the only thing that screwed the pooch was pac/floyd and that bitchfest


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah :lol: I think we did this thread back at the old place, but a top 10. But this one is awful. I need to troll Dan on his twitter more. How does he have our job!?


Fat, ugly, fucking mouth breather.


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## One to watch (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> The last 25 years had some great talent though. We bitch and moan now with the state of things but it hasn't been bad IMO the only thing that screwed the pooch was pac/floyd and that bitchfest


:deal


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Fat, ugly, fucking mouth breather.


Seems like kind of a dick too.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Seems like kind of a dick too.


I'd rather talk some Top 25 of the Post-B&W era type shit.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'd rather talk some Top 25 of the Post-B&W era type shit.


Yeah, it's barely an article worth doing. Maybe a top 10 starring Jones, Whitaker, Mayweather, Pac, Chavez, Hopkins, Lennox, Holyfield, Oskee :smoke


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## One to watch (Jun 5, 2013)

Atlanta said:


> They really needed to break the list up over that long of a period?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You telling me that you ain't gonna be excited?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Glove_Game said:


> I'm genuinely struggling to think who they're going to rank 5th. It's probably somebody really obvious but I can't think who


I swear this is a trolling list.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> The last 25 years had some great talent though. We bitch and moan now with the state of things but it hasn't been bad IMO the only thing that screwed the pooch was pac/floyd and that bitchfest


How about no Toney-Hopkins, no Jones vs mcclellan, nunn or benn, no Lewis vs bowe or Tyson vs Bowe, no trinidad vs mosley, no quartey vs whitaker, etc.

Lots and lots of classic fights were missed out on.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> How about no Toney-Hopkins, no Jones vs mcclellan, nunn or benn, no Lewis vs bowe or Tyson vs Bowe, no trinidad vs mosley, no quartey vs whitaker, etc.
> 
> Lots and lots of classic fights were missed out on.


But great fights were made in spite of this.

Weight hopping has a big to do with that IMO. Everyone was all over the place for a period.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> But great fights were made in spite of this.
> 
> Weight hopping has a big to do with that IMO. Everyone was all over the place for a period.


m8.. even Jones jr vs Mike Tyson circa 2002 would have been dope :fire


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> m8.. even Jones jr vs Mike Tyson circa 2002 would have been dope :fire


TG let's keep it positive here :verysad


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## Twelvey (Jun 6, 2012)

Casual HOOOOOK said:


> Whitaker below De La Hoya looool
> 
> Fucking scumbags
> 
> ...


:hey


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Lots and lots of classic fights were missed out on.


Don't blame Chavez. He gave the people a super fight against another top rated P4P talent every three years for a while, some diehard oriented and others on a larger scale of fanfare. Rosario in '87, Taylor in '90, Whitaker in '93, De La Hoya in '96/'98.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Don't blame Chavez. He gave the people a super fight against another top rated P4P talent every three years for a while, some diehard oriented and others on a larger scale of fanfare.


definitely not chavez's fault.



> Rosario in '87,


Dangerous puncher but not a p4p talent.


> Taylor in '90


Taylor was robbed. 


> Whitaker in '93,


Whitaker wasn't aggressive enough. 


> De La Hoya in '96/'98.


Sometimes pictures need no subtitles.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Dangerous puncher but not a p4p talent.


Plenty capable boxer, and the opinion isn't solely mine. Now you're going to make me go find documents I got rid of years ago of publications doing P4P polls years before The RING even started. Rosario was there, pal. Chavez was moving up as well, and he destroyed him.



> Taylor was robbed.


Wut?



> Whitaker wasn't aggressive enough.


OK.



> Sometimes pictures need no subtitles.


Your complaint was fights not being made at all, yet complain and nitpick about what happened in those that were given to you? :huh Well, not really as you would've just been getting shot out of the sack circa '96. It was about fights being signed and taking place. Those other duckers you mentioned sans Whitaker couldn't even do that.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@TBooze You still got those?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Plenty capable boxer, and the opinion isn't solely mine. Now you're going to make me go find documents I got rid of years ago of publications doing P4P polls years before The RING even started. Rosario was there, pal. Chavez was moving up as well, and he destroyed him.
> 
> Wut?
> 
> ...


My shit attempt at trolling, sorry hands :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> My shit attempt at trolling, sorry hands :lol:


You little shit. :lol: :cheers

I figured as it ran contrary to almost everything I've ever heard you say about Chavez. Those DLH fights were enormous embarrassments though, I can't even front there. He gave it a real go in the rematch and got beat the fuck up with an eerily similar finish. I hate your boy @turbotime -- He beat my two boxing heroes outside of Robearto(e).


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Ricky Hatton had a better career than Golovkin lmao


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

1. Pernell
2. Roy
3. Floyd
4. Chavez
5. Pacquiao
6. Marquez
7. Hopkins
8. Lewis
9. Holyfield
10. Toney

Come at me bro


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ricky Hatton had a better career than Golovkin lmao


:lol:


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

1. Golovkin

999. Ward


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> definitely not chavez's fault.
> 
> Dangerous puncher but not a p4p talent.
> 
> ...


:hey


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> 1. Pernell
> 2. Roy
> 3. Floyd
> 4. Chavez
> ...


Youre missing someone.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> 1. Pernell
> 2. Roy
> 3. Floyd
> 4. Chavez
> ...


pretty good list,nothing for me to cirtisize there. maybe get rid of lewis and swap in DLH


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Youre missing someone.


Yeah I could probably throw Oskie in the last 3 slots


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

It's not a list that warrant any criticism.


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## nuclear (Jun 15, 2015)




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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's not a list that warrant any criticism.


What about Floyd over Chavez?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> What about Floyd over Chavez?


Not even worth arguing over for me, tbh.


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## Kush (May 24, 2013)

I stopped at GGG


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> 1. Pernell
> 2. Roy
> 3. Floyd
> 4. Chavez
> ...


I`d switch Floyd and Pernell..

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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




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## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> How about no Toney-Hopkins, no Jones vs mcclellan, nunn or benn, no Lewis vs bowe or *Tyson vs Bowe, no trinidad vs mosley,* no quartey vs whitaker, etc.
> 
> Lots and lots of classic fights were missed out on.


Don't discount those fights happening, those guys are broke. Hell we might get a triple header if Jones and Toney can agree to a weight for their rematch.


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## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

Pernell at #8??? lol


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## Strike (Jun 4, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> A truly awful and arbitrary list.


This. Andre Ward ahead of Wlad and Morales? Holyfield 5 places ahead of Lewis?


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## AzarZ (Dec 17, 2013)

Fucking GGG :lol:


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> He gave the people a super fight against another top rated P4P talent every three years for a while, some diehard oriented and others on a larger scale of fanfare. Rosario in '87, Taylor in '90, Whitaker in '93, De La Hoya in '96/'98.


Cherry-picked a feather fisted cokehead in '93 instead of facing his destiny:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Cherry-picked a feather fisted cokehead in '93 instead of facing his destiny:


Terrible.

At the end of the day, @Pedderrs is justified in his position on Julio. I mean, what's better than a guy who possesses elite in-fighting skill, elite offensive footwork, elite body punching, elite combinations and punch variety, elite stamina and an elite chin with very subtle and effective defensive head-and-upper body movement and a more than adequate work rate once the tide has been risen? He didn't need an ATG jab, one-punch KO power or blindingly fast hands. He's the textbook example of a supreme pressure fighter. The textbook example of a fighter, period. Honed his skills on nothin more than 10 rounds of sparring per day and a diet of carne asada, cervezas and aguacates. The approach was simply magnificent in it's purity and surface simplicity.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

And a watermelon, Hands. Don't forget the watermelon.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> And a watermelon, Hands. Don't forget the watermelon.


Yes, of course. This is going well. Just don't turn into a De La Hoya torch-wielding wanker in here as you've been prone to do in other threads with winking and jack off smiley faces.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> wanker


Post invalidated.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Post invalidated.


Cultural Appropriation? :lol:

It's true though. You start getting my hopes up thinking you're agreeing with me and then out of nowhere absolutely blindside everyone in a thread with "Oscar was a fucking beast!" type commentary. It's disheartening. That dude has fewer qualities that define him as an ATG fighter, no questions asked. I don't give a shit if his jab, size and dimensions cause issues for JCC even well prior to '96... and then before long @MichiganWarrior gets involved all on some "Oscar destroys pressure fighters, son."... You're all fucking crazy.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

It's my contention that Julio Cesar Chavez was a one-dimensional, one-paced sloppy-as-hell brawler that feasted on cab drivers, albeit tough ones (allegedly), to pad an otherwise underwhelming win column. Hands of Iron must have me confused with another less educated poster, the type of person who would probably believe, stupidly, that this face-first buzzsaw could have hoped to hang with a fighter of Mayweather's calibre. 107-6-2. Yeah, but forget the cab drivers like Refugio Rojas and Kevin Vice and what you are essentially left with is a slower, more hittable Marco Antonio Barrera. History has been kind to Julio Cesar Chavez, but I am not fooled. http://boxrec.com/boxer/773


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Cultural Appropriation? :lol:
> 
> It's true though. You start getting my hopes up thinking you're agreeing with me and then out of nowhere absolutely blindside everyone in a thread with "Oscar was a fucking beast!" type commentary. It's disheartening. That dude has fewer qualities that define him as an ATG fighter, no questions asked. I don't give a shit if his jab, size and dimensions cause issues for JCC even well prior to '96... and then before long @MichiganWarrior gets involved all on some "Oscar destroys pressure fighters, son."... You're all fucking crazy.


Haha what? When has this happened though. Maybe once. He just doesn't get enough love is all, not by a long shot. But I wasn't even thinking of him in here. In fact I was thinking of re-creating an old thread which asked which boxers are archetypes for certain styles. JCC was my candidate for pressure fighter; Trinidad for boxer-puncher (Arguello and Finito Lopez named as well), and Toney for counter-puncher.

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=371297


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

If Trinidad was the archtype for boxer-punchers then that doesn't bode well for boxer-punchers. I like mine to have some semblance of footwork and balance. I'd say Gerry Penalosa would be a better poster boy for counter-punchers too. He was slicker than Toney.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Haha what? When has this happened though. Maybe once. He just doesn't get enough love is all, not by a long shot. But I wasn't even thinking of him in here. In fact I was thinking of re-creating an old thread which asked which boxers are archetypes for certain styles. JCC was my candidate for pressure fighter; Trinidad for boxer-puncher (Arguello and Finito Lopez named as well), and Toney for counter-puncher.
> 
> http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=371297


You've done it once, in a De La Hoya thread. I still can't shake the bitterness.



MichiganWarrior said:


> Oscar destroys pressure fighters son. Good job comparing the body work of 165lb Hopkins to 140lb Chavez though.


That was to TommyGun, not me.



Hands of Iron said:


> Torch passing sucks @Bogotazo
> 
> Yea, I don't disagree with that. Chavez has a lot more that distinguishes him in an all-time H2H sense and I wouldn't have him down as anything less than Top 3-5 where technical pressure fighters, infighting or body punching is concerned. That's partly the reason he comfortably makes my Top 10 in terms of ability on film. He was incredibly patient and economical with his punches and had absolutely no wasted head movement, unnecessarily burned through no energy stores. He was relentless, but not in the sort of way people inaccurately paint him.
> 
> ...





Bogotazo said:


> Oscar was a fucking beast. His versatility and ferocity isn't really celebrated enough IMO and there's no shame in saying a prime JCC would have a problem stalking him. Pressuring a taller fighter with great mobility, speed, power, and body punching is an uphill battle for most.
> 
> Hands you and I see Chavez and Duran the same way. You remember this gem?
> 
> http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=13634492


There's tons of shame, and I can't play it cool anymore.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> It's my contention that Julio Cesar Chavez was a one-dimensional, one-paced sloppy-as-hell brawler that feasted on cab drivers, albeit tough ones (allegedly), to pad an otherwise underwhelming win column. Hands of Iron must have me confused with another less educated poster, the type of person who would probably believe, stupidly, that this face-first buzzsaw could have hoped to hang with a fighter of Mayweather's calibre. 107-6-2. Yeah, but forget the cab drivers like Refugio Rojas and Kevin Vice and what you are essentially left with is a slower, more hittable Marco Antonio Barrera. History has been kind to Julio Cesar Chavez, but I am not fooled.












:-(


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@Bogotazo Tito over Es Are El, Tommy and Robbi?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Bogotazo Tito over Es Are El, Tommy and Robbi?


On pure style yeah, simply because he was so plain. SRL was actually my second pick, but I just see him as the default fighter overall. Like when I think of a professional boxer period, SRL fits the profile in every way. Not entirely textbook, but never straying far from the fundamentals, and no true weaknesses to speak of.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> On pure style yeah, simply because he was so plain. SRL was actually my second pick, but I just see him as the default fighter overall. Like when I think of a professional boxer period, SRL fits the profile in every way. Not entirely textbook, but never straying far from the fundamentals, and no true weaknesses to speak of.


Absolute thoroughbred of a boxer-puncher.

It's been said before and I'm sure you haven't had time aside from the short clips I've cut and posted, but there is serious educational (and entertainment) value to be derived from Chavez's less heralded early 1990s fights - Duplessis, Mitchell, Haugen, Alli amongst others - all fucking quality. He was beginning to slide a bit physically but who cares? Physical attributes weren't ever anything he was really that dependent on. However, his skill set was as complete and refined as could be. Way earlier in 130 days, but Da Cruz was a sick performance too.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Absolute thoroughbred of a boxer-puncher.
> 
> It's been said before and I'm sure you haven't had time aside from the short clips I've cut and posted, but there is serious educational (and entertainment) value to be derived from Chavez's less heralded early 1990s fights - Duplessis, Mitchell, Haugen, Alli amongst others - all fucking quality. He was beginning to slide a bit physically but who cares? Physical attributes weren't ever anything he was really that dependent on. However, his skill set was as complete and refined as could be. Way earlier in 130 days, but Da Cruz was a sick performance too.


Hands of Iron is a man of super intelligence and this post proves it. Chavez's majestic displays against Greg Haugen and Terrance Ali in particular are two performances I could never tire of watching. Julio was great at cutting off the ring and had impeccable timing -- and these two qualities would allow him to beat more mobile fighters too -- but stick a stationary guy in front of Chavez and what you get is some of the most fluid and aesthetically pleasing combination punching you could ever hope to see. There are some truly terrifying sequences of punches delivered against Haugen and Ali. Andy Holligan, too.






*23.40* -- Unless you're a relative of Andy Holligan's you cannot help but admire the final 25 seconds of the round. One of the most frustrating things to see, for me, is to watch a fighter become sloppy and desperate when they have their opponent hurt. Their punching form goes out of the window and they start swinging for the fences in a desperate act to finish the fight as soon as possible. Even some great fighters do this and it can only be described as poor finishing. JCC doesn't start throwing with reckless abandon once Holligan is ready to be finished; he picks his shots methodically and systematically. Holligan shows incredible toughness to avoid going down, but his cornermen do their job at the end of the round and pull him out.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Chavez was so good at parries. anywho..

jones
pbf
whitaker
pacquiao
hopkins


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

!. Roy Jones
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Floyd Mayweather
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. JCC
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Oscar De la Hoya
10. James Toney
11. Juan Manual Marquez
12. Felix Trinidad
13. Erik Morales
14. Marco Antonio Barrera
15. Shane Mosley
16. Nonito Donaire


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Hands of Iron is a man of super intelligence and this post proves it. Chavez's majestic displays against Greg Haugen and Terrance Ali in particular are two performances I could never tire of watching. Julio was great at cutting off the ring and had impeccable timing -- and these two qualities would allow him to beat more mobile fighters too -- but stick a stationary guy in front of Chavez and what you get is some of the most fluid and aesthetically pleasing combination punching you could ever hope to see. There are some truly terrifying sequences of punches delivered against Haugen and Ali. Andy Holligan, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unanimous EVT win for Chavez in this thread. Watching these clips, a couple things become immediately evident:

01.) Chavez had far less aversion than Sugar Ray Robinson when it came to stepping into the ring with black fighters. His record is littered with them at nearly every twist and turn.

02.) His 'ordinary' fights are immensely more entertaining than Roberto Duran's, who had several title defences at lightweight in his prime which are borderline unwatchable. Fucking about for nearly 15 rounds several times out. Cut them off and finish them, FFS.



Hands of Iron said:


>


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Chavez-Ali is one of my favourite one-sided horror shows. If I'm not mistaken, Chavez hurts his right hand in that one and has to resort to using his left hand almost exclusively. Unfortunately for Ali, Chavez was a two-fisted fighter in every sense. He could hurt you with either hand.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> An otherwise underwhelming win column.


This is actually sort of true. On the surface anyway. Nobody would ever claim Chavez had a slew of top wins comparable to a Sugar Ray Leonard but when people roll without any sort of context, they're arguing blind and incorrectly. Take Rocky Lockridge for example, a virtual unknown these days. People see Chavez edging out an "MD" not knowing that he busted a digit on his right hand early on in that fight nor that Lockridge should very well have victories over the likes of Wilfredo Gomez and Eusebio Pedroza on his record -- making him HOF material without even going any further. Mario Martinez? He beat Azumah Nelson pretty clearly IMO. Even Meldrick Taylor is seen as a blazing talent who never fully materialized (and he didn't) and "what could have been" but yet at the time Chavez fought him, was rated Top 5 P4P material.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

You forgot about Kenny Vice. I hear they refer to him as 'King Kenny' in Lafayette, Louisiana.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

what a jerk off sesh.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> what a jerk off sesh.


Missing the @Flea Man.

Feel free to refute anything said on the last couple pages, breh. I know the onslaught is overwhelming. Like the Rising Tide JCC himself.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Missing the @Flea Man.
> 
> Feel free to refute anything said on the last couple pages, breh. I know the onslaught is overwhelming. Like the Rising Tide JCC himself.


i replied


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> A truly awful and arbitrary list.


/thread


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I should probably curb the superlatives when discussing Chavez. The kid could fight, I'll just leave it at that.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Feel free to refute.


Don King's puppet.

US-centric bias.

The Black Flash.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> !. Roy Jones
> 2. Pernell Whitaker
> 3. Floyd Mayweather
> 4. Manny Pacquiao
> ...


That's fair, but I'd put Donaire lower. I do appreciate him getting a mention though.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> !. Roy Jones
> 2. Pernell Whitaker
> 3. Floyd Mayweather
> 4. Manny Pacquiao
> ...


No way Trinidad is above those 3 names.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> No way Trinidad is above those 3 names.


I agree with you Bogo.

If someone would like to make a case for Trinidad being ranked above Barrera and Morales -- shoot!


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I agree with you Bogo.
> 
> If someone would like to make a case for Trinidad being ranked above Barrera and Morales -- shoot!


Trinidad's not even an ATG.

Trinidad or Calzaghe, I wonder who ranks higher.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

these lists are always subjective. Everyone has favorites according to age..


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No way Trinidad is above those 3 names.


Of course he is. It's arguable he could be top 5, but I left my personal bias aside.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Trinidad's not even an ATG.
> 
> Trinidad or Calzaghe, I wonder who ranks higher.


Are you smoking crack? Of course he is.

He beat the best WW's of his generation and ruined them all. Beat the best JMW's of his generation and ruined them as well, and was actually WILLING to unify the MW division as well until a ATG MW stopped his run. The man was even willing to move up to LHW and unify that the division by facing RJ's next if he got passed through Hopkins.

He's the personification of an ATG, with the resume and accomplishments to match.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> Of course he is. It's arguable he could be top 5, but I left my personal bias aside.


Good trolling.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Good trolling.


The only troll post one the one you stated above.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> The only troll post one the one you stated above.


Nobody in their right mind would have Trinidad above Morales, Barrera, and Mosley.



DirtyDan said:


> Are you smoking crack? Of course he is.
> 
> He beat the best WW's of his generation and ruined them all. Beat the best JMW's of his generation and ruined them as well, and was actually WILLING to unify the MW division as well until a ATG MW stopped his run. The man was even willing to move up to LHW and unify that the division by facing RJ's next if he got passed through Hopkins.
> 
> He's the personification of an ATG, with the resume and accomplishments to match.


Trinidad's resume falls short of ATG status, so no, he doesn't personify an ATG at all. Trinidad is more frequently mentioned as a best win for greater fighters, namely Hopkins and Oscar. He didn't beat Oscar, and arguing he did is tantamount to trolling.

But Mosley did. That ATG win puts him a step ahead of Trinidad, who's best win is Vargas (and an old Whitaker as a follow up) which pales in comparison. Not to mention the rest of his resume. Holiday, Margarito, Molina, Leija, Collazo. Vargas twice, Mayorga.

Morales beat prime Barrera, prime Pacquiao, Zaragoza, Junior Jones, and Kevin Kelley. That's clearly better

Barrera beat a prime Morales twice, Naseem Hamed (stopping right here he's already above Trinidad), Ayala, Juarez, Tapia, Kelley...

I give credit for Trinidad making daring leaps, it doesn't add anything to his resume in itself though. Vargas, old Sweet Pea, Joppy, Carr, Campas, Mayorga...it's Hall of Fame stuff but he lacks that premier win to put him among the very best. Maybe he sneaks in at 100. But he's not above the other 3. No way.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Nobody in their right mind would have Trinidad above Morales, Barrera, and Mosley.
> 
> Trinidad's resume falls short of ATG status, so no, he doesn't personify an ATG at all. Trinidad is more frequently mentioned as a best win for greater fighters, namely Hopkins and Oscar. He didn't beat Oscar, and arguing he did is tantamount to trolling.
> 
> ...


Let me break it down for you, sonny boy.. I have to educate the ignorant of Trinidad's illustrious career since some people don't know a god damn thing about boxing.

Trinidad's claim to fame came first by beating the best WW's of his generation. First, a green Trinidad beat up and made the late great Hector Camacho his bitch, while Camacho still had good wins left in the horizon. Then, Trinidad took out undefeated knockout artist and Chavez 2.0 Yori Boy Campas. After that fight, Campas was never the same again. He got ruined, aka Tito'd into oblivion just like many of Trinidad's victims. A couple of title defenses later and now making a claim as an ATG WW, Trinidad meet a fully motivated Pernell Whitaker 6 months after Sweet Pea's schooling of a prime Oscar De la Hoya. He was the only man to legitimately beat this ATG, who was undefeated prior to their meeting, yet in your opinion he was old.. based on what reasoning? Did you even see that fight? What made Whitaker old?... anyway.. After that, Trinidad sought greatness and had the Golden boy and p4p numbero uno DLH running for his dear life. Trinidad's chunky punches made the golden boy into a ballerina... LITERALLY. At worst, you can score that fight a draw..at best, you can score it 7 rounds to 5 Trinidad. DLH didn't want anymore of those savage left hooks, he ducked the rematch and started doing coke and losing to LW's thereafter. That was the end of Trinidad's ATG WW career, he could of stayed and tito'd more people, but he wanted to seek greatness, and that's what he did.

Trinidad moved up and Tito'd another olympic gold medalist in David Reid. The American dream was never the same after this ordeal. He lost his prime and his belt to el ***** Boricua. Next, Trinidad wanted a scrap with the best JMW of his generation Fernando Vargas, fresh off of wins from ATG JMW Winky Wright and Ike Quartey after his schooling of DLH. Trinidad didn't give a fuck, he made that mother fucker his bitch, almost knocked him out in the first round but didn't want to make it too easy, he wanted to put on a show.. what a guy. If I told you Vargas wasn't tito'd, I'd be lying to you. Okay, so Trinidad beat the fuck out of the best WW's in his generation and beat the fuck out of the best JMW's of his generation. If he was a smart man, he'd of stayed at JMW and start collecting title defenses like anybody else. But no, GREATNESS was his calling.

What does Trinidad do? Moved up another weight class to the big bois. He Tito'd the FUCK out of long reigning WBA MW champ William Joppy. Just another day in the office for Trinidad. If it were any other MW generation, Tito would of reigned supreme. But his downfall came against ATG MW(who started and finished his career at LHW) Bernard Hopkins smack dab in the MIDDLE of his prime.

Trinidad's focus and desire dwindled after that fight. He became a part time boxer. He could of went on to do great things, and he should of.. but he didn't. He managed to knock out and Tito then undisputed WW champion Ricardo Mayorga(the Spinks fight was a robbery, Mayorga was the true WW champ) after a 2 year lay off. The rest was history.

So to answer your question, yes.. this man is without a doubt an ATG of the highest order. He became slightly overrated during his prime but severely underrated after retirement. Without a doubt he has accomplished more than Morales and Barrera. I'd personally have him in the top 5 ATG's of the last 25 years, only behind Jones Jr, Whitaker, Pacquaio, and Mayweather. But I'm a non biased man.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Tito ruining fighters doesn't make them better. Nice tribute but no way in hell did he accomplish more than Morales, Barrera, and Mosley. That's just a fact. His best wins don't compare. He never beat an All Time Great in their prime, and doesn't have the resume to compensate for that against these guys. It's that simple.

He's good, I never said he was bad. But ATG is a tall order. If he gets in he's on the bottom end, and not above those 3. His resume approaches Shane's, but Trinidad losing to Oscar and Mosley beating him in a historic performance clearly separates the two.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> - Where eagles dare.


The Hopkins fight was a sheer badassness that would make Napoles proud.

Turbo was crying in the rain and screaming "why, biebs, why?!" when they signed the contract - cuz nobody was giving Oscar any chance of winning that fight.

The fight was a 100% sure loss for Oscar, Hop never drew, Oscar could've easily just cherry-picked a weak champ if a bogus 14-weight division champ record was all he was aiming for.

And yet he still faced Hop.

Oscar can wear stockings all he wants - he's still more man than most men.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> The Hopkins fight was a sheer badassness that would made Napoles proud.
> 
> Turbo was crying in the rain and screaming "why, biebs, why?!" when they signed the contract - cuz nobody was giving Oscar any chance of winning that fight.
> 
> ...




Truth.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Dirty Dan is a passionate guy, and I like that. But Bogotazo is on point -- the manner in which Trinidad defeated mostly B level opposition is largely irrelevant in the context of this discussion. What's far more important and indicative of a fighter's worth is analysing the quality of the fighters they were fighting. Unfortunately for Dirty Dan, Barrera and Morales simply beat better fighters than he did. I'm talking about signature victories. Trinidad has a host of good names on his resume and he did, like Dirty Dan said, rule at 147lbs for a time, but he was found seriously wanting against the best guys he fought. He only holds a win over ODLH on paper in my mind too. Dirty Dan will tell us that he won officially but it would be interesting to hear how often he watches that fight back, seeing as Trinidad was made to look a bit silly for most of it. 

Offensive behemoth unquestionably, and it was great to see him try to move through the weights, but Trinidad is a bit below the Barrera's and Morales' of the world.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Tito has one of the best highlight reels in boxing at least.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron made the point that JCC remained entertaining and decisive even when fighting guys who were completely out of their depth. Trinidad was the same. He had elite offensive capabilities, ruthlessly dispatching guys like Thiam, Campas and Waters. And like JCC, a very accurate composite puncher that could hurt you with either hand.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Trinidad's not even an ATG.
> 
> Trinidad or Calzaghe, I wonder who ranks higher.


This post raises the important question, what is an all-time great? How does one define its status?


----------



## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Yawn... I'm still waiting on a response on how Barrera and Morales are greater than Trinidad. Nobody here has brought up any evidence. Mosley isn't even in the discussion since he admitted to taking steroids in his biggest win against DLH. The 2nd Mosley-DLH fight was a clear win for DLH. Then you have his fight against a de-bricked, embarrassed and exposed Margarito. Margarito was a punching bag that night, he had absolutely no confidence at all after his weapons got taken away, was a sitting duck basically. Then you have his 2 wins over a damaged goods Vargas twice.. first one being a TKO due to Vargas's eye. His Mayorga fight isn't even up for discussion, Mayorga has seen better days.

So lets stack up their wins/accomplishments.

Trinidad's top 5 wins-
*Oscar De Le Hoya*(p4p number 1, at worst you can score it a draw, at best a win for Trinidad)
*Pernell Whitaker*(was the p4p number 1, long reigning WW champion that hasn't legitimately lost yet. Had a close fight with a prime Oscar which many people thought he won, including me and and beat number one contender Pestryaev a fight before. Was suspended for 6 months after coke was found in his system, yet didn't hinder his performance or reflexes against trinidad..)
*Fernando Vargas*(the lineal, undefeated JMW champion and best JMW champion of his era. Just came off of back to back wins over ATG JMW Winky Wright and Ike Quartay after Quartays master class fight against DLH)
*Hector Camacho*(at the time had a record of *43 2 0, *less than 2 years removed after his fight with JCC. Was still a world talent and didn't lose till 3 and a half years later after meeting with DLH. A green Trinidad gave him a beating for 12 rounds straight)
*William Joppy*(long reigning WBA MW champion, many had him as the best MW going into their fight. Trinidad was competing at a weight class he did not belong in and absolutely steam rolled him)

Accomplishments- Unified and lineal WBC/IBF Welterweight champion in the last golden era of WW boxing. 15 consecutive defenses of IBF strap. Unified and lineal WBA/IBF JMW Champion. WBA Middleweight champion. No vacant belts. Won all of his belts by defeating the long reigning champion at that particular point in time.

Barrera's top 5 wins-
*Naseem Hamed*(Hamed was THE Featherweight champ. Full credit to Barrera, he exposed and embarrassed the long reigning, former unified FW champion.)
*Erik Morales 1 and 3*(Both go hand and hand. First was the FOTY against the two best fighters below FW. I had it a draw, but most people felt Barrera won, although Morales officially got the W. The third is another FOTY in a legendary trilogy. The rubbermatch, Barrera won this one hands down. The clearest win out of the trilogy)
*Rocky Juarez 2*(Super Featherweight contender, gave Barrera two hard fights. Most thought he lost the first 1, but it is what it is. Barrera gave him a rematch and won that one clearly)
*Johnny Tapia*(faded, blown up, close to retirement. His last great win was against Medina a fight prior for the IBF FW strap. Long removed from his prime at Super Flyweight)
*Kevin Kelley*(Has seen better days. Retired after this fight, got KO'd by Bobby Pacquaio a year into his comeback)

Accomplishments- 2 time WBO Super bantamweight champion. WBC Featherweight and lineal champion. Unified IBF/WBC Super Featherweight Champion.

Erik Morales top 5 wins-
*Manny Pacquiao* 1(excellent ATG win. Many thought Morales was faded after his wars with Barrera, proved everyone wrong. beating Pacquaio in his prime)
*Marco Antonio Barrera 2*(the second fight in their ATG trilogy. Barrera gets the win but many people including myself felt that Morales deserved the victory)
*Daniel Zaragoza*(passing of the torch. Zaragoza's 3rd Super Bantamweight reign. Last Zaragoza fight, was 40 years old and struggled with opposition he'd beat in his prime before)
*Junior Jones*(good win, Jones was coming off a TKO loss to McKinney in a thriller. Before that though Jones had 2 upset wins over dominant WBO p4p great Barrera)
*Kevin Kelley*(again, Kelley has seen better days. Good win over the former WBC Featherweight champ.)

Accomplishments- Unified and lineal WBC/WBO Super Bantamweight champion. WBC Featherweight Champion. Unified WBC/IBF Super Featherweight champion. Vacant WBC LWW Champ(basically a gimmie belt from Suliman)

Just don't see how these two guys wins/accomplishments stack up to Tito. It's not even close.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Trinitrash is not an atg


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Well you think Rocky Juarez is a better win than Kennedy Mckinney for starters.

Look, I have nor the time or the inclination to write you a 1000 word essay as to why I believe Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales to have been greater fighters than Tito Trinidad. I did stuff like that for years at ESB and rarely, very rarely, did it ever educate people on details they weren't already aware of. This could be an exception here I guess because you have literally just picked out the biggest names on Barrera's record and thrown them in a top 5 without any consideration of context. You've talked up a '94 Camacho with everything you've got whilst then going on to completely deride and downplay '02 Tapia. There is absolutely no consistency in your arguments and that is a sure fire sign that the person in question isn't really interested in discussion at all. You wholeheartedly believe Trinidad is the better fighter and nothing I say is going to cause you to reevaluate that belief. 

Tito Trinidad is lucky to have you, buddy.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> That's fair, but I'd put Donaire lower. I do appreciate him getting a mention though.


There's an argument that you can put him below some fighters, but it's weird how underrated he gets here.

He legitimately beat the number 1 fighter in 4 different weight classes, unifying two. It's not like he was knocking out cupcakes to win straps either. Darch, Montiel, and Nishioka were the number 1 fighters in their weight class at the time, Vetyeka as well. He was the best little man below FW for years. I'd rank him higher than the likes of Lopez, GGG, Martinez and Cotto, that's for sure.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Well you think Rocky Juarez is a better win than Kennedy Mckinney for starters.
> 
> Look, I have nor the time or the inclination to write you a 1000 word essay as to why I believe Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales to have been greater fighters than Tito Trinidad. I did stuff like that for years at ESB and rarely, very rarely, did it ever educate people on details they weren't already aware of. This could be an exception here I guess because you have literally just picked out the biggest names on Barrera's record and thrown them in a top 5 without any consideration of context. You've talked up a '94 Camacho with everything you've got whilst then going on to completely deride and downplay '02 Tapia. There is absolutely no consistency in your arguments and that is a sure fire sign that the person in question isn't really interested in discussion at all. You wholeheartedly believe Trinidad is the better fighter and nothing I say is going to cause you to reevaluate that belief.
> 
> Tito Trinidad is lucky to have you, buddy.


ZZZzz.. cop out, no substance.

We're not in ESB, we're having a legitimate discussion on boxing. 02 Tapia was shot, blown up and near retirement. His win over Medina was decent, but he proved he did not belong in that weight class.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Dude, you've listed an inactive coke addict as Tito's second best win. You did the work for us. Pernell hadn't fought for 16 months.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Dude, you've listed an inactive coke addict as Tito's second best win. You did the work for us. Pernell hadn't fought for 16 months.


Did you actually see the Tito fight? Did you see the Pestryaev fight? Please explain to me how Whitaker was faded. He was caught with coke in his system and was suspended for 6 months. He was fully motivated and on top of his game when fighting Trinidad but had nothing to trouble Trinidad.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> Did you actually see the Tito fight? Did you see the Pestryaev fight? Please explain to me how Whitaker was faded. He was caught with coke in his system and was suspended for 6 months. He was fully motivated and on top of his game when fighting Trinidad but had nothing to trouble Trinidad.


It is literally impossible for a fighter that relies heavily on their timing and reflexes to come back from a lengthy coke binge to be on top of their game. That simply doesn't tie in to reality at all. It contradicts everything we know about conditioning, preparation and competitive sports in general. I'm a little bit taken aback because I've never actually heard someone claim that a '99 Whitaker up at 147lbs was anything other than horribly, horribly faded, but was it not clear to you from his movement and the regularity with which he was being hit that this wasn't vintage Pea? Please remind us, what did this rejuvenated and re-motivated Pea do after he lost decisively to Trinidad?


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Pedderrs said:


> It is literally impossible for a fighter that relies heavily on their timing and reflexes to come back from a lengthy coke binge to be on top of their game. That simply doesn't tie in to reality at all. It contradicts everything we know about conditioning, preparation and competitive sports in general. I'm a little bit taken aback because I've never actually heard someone claim that a '99 Whitaker up at 147lbs was anything other than horribly, horribly faded, but was it not clear to you from his movement and the regularity with which he was being hit that this wasn't vintage Pea? Please remind us, what did this rejuvenated and re-motivated Pea do after he lost decisively to Trinidad?


The guy is clearly just trolling


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> It is literally impossible for a fighter that relies heavily on their timing and reflexes to come back from a lengthy coke binge to be on top of their game. That simply doesn't tie in to reality at all. It contradicts everything we know about conditioning, preparation and competitive sports in general. I'm a little bit taken aback because I've never actually heard someone claim that a '99 Whitaker up at 147lbs was anything other than horribly, horribly faded, but was it not clear to you from his movement and the regularity with which he was being hit that this wasn't vintage Pea? Please remind us, what did this rejuvenated and re-motivated Pea do after he lost decisively to Trinidad?


Another cop out. Did you see the fights, yes or no? Coke was found in pea's system after the Russian guys fight, he was suspended for 6 months and then Don King came to him offering for a fight with Trinidad. He had a full training camp, fully motivated and rejuvenated to fight for another world title. He came out showing flashes of brilliance and movement, but in the end went into survival mode due to how hard Trinidad hit. Trinidad had bone crushing, career ending power at WW. It's the same reason why Oscar went into survival mode in the last couple of rounds where Trinidad was his most dangerous.

I'm not saying Trinidad beat a PEAK Whitaker. Whitaker was slightly faded, but far from shot. If he did, it'd be one of the best wins of the century. I'm saying it's an underrated win which Trinidad deserves full credit for.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> Another cop out. Did you see the fights, yes or no? Coke was found in pea's system after the Russian guys fight, he was suspended for 6 months and then Don King came to him offering for a fight with Trinidad. He had a full training camp, fully motivated and rejuvenated to fight for another strap. He came out showing flashes of brilliance and movement but in the end went into survival mode due to how hard Trinidad hit.
> 
> I'm not saying Trinidad beat a PEAK Whitaker. Whitaker was slightly faded, but far from shot. If he did, it'd be one of the best wins of the century. I'm saying it's an underrated win which Trinidad deserves full credit for.


I'm going to say I've seen the fight even if I haven't. I mean, of course I have, but why would I do something so stupid and self-defeating as admitting not to watching a fight having put fourth an opinion on it? That would be as ludicrous as vehemently insisting that Tito Trinidad had a greater career than Marco Antonio Barrera and then listing a blown up and inactive coke addict as his second greatest win. It's such a strange position to take as a fan of Trinidad, and verbs like 'motivated' and 'rejuvenated' add absolutely nothing to your argument. Muhammad Ali was motivated the night he lost to Larry Holmes, but motivation alone does not win you boxing matches.

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Pernell Whitaker was anything other than severely past it. He hadn't fought for almost 2 years, well-documented drug abuse, operating above his optimal weight, and not a lot inside the ring, or indeed after the fight, would give credence to the notion that Trinidad beat a great fighter. Whitaker retired after the bout and then come running back once all the money had gone. Could it be any more obvious that Pernell's motivations were clearly financial? Whitaker relied on mobility and timing to outbox his opponents, once those physical attributes had dissipated -- as they typically do with age, inactivity and drug abuse -- then you're left with very little of what made them great in the first place.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Whitaker was clearly faded when he was lucky not to drop a decision to Wilfredo Rivera three years earlier. He probably couldn't of been a more obvious shell of his former self than in the De La Hoya fight perhaps aside from several alcohol/coke binges and a Trinidad fight later. Whitaker was not a "defensive fighter", he was a complete fighter with extraordinary defensive capabilities that cannot be taught, heavily based on reflexes/intuition and possessed one of the better _offensive_ arsenals of his era sans punching power, particularly in regards to his infighting capabilities and work rate. He had comparatively very little of the latter by the late 90s against world level opposition, and both his reflexes and legs had starting fading beginning with the initial move to 147. Motivated? I'm absolutely sure he was, for both DLH and Trinidad. It was Tito who was actually boxing off the backfoot in the early rounds. He saw Bogotazo's torch being lit and knew they were make-or-break fights for his career trajectory, but the ability to keep it up was, well, faded. I have no doubt Trinidad's savage power also had a hand in that. Whitaker boxed the last seven rounds with a broken jaw.



Pedderrs said:


> You've talked up a '94 Camacho with everything you've got.


Don't think I'd consider '92 Camacho a Top 5 win for Chavez, much less a great one. It's on the peripheral though and one in a string of many good wins.



Bogotazo said:


> Never beat an All-Time Great in their Prime.


Your strict Single Win criteria concerns me sometimes.

'90 Meldrick Taylor >> '08/'11/'12 Pacquiao.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm not an expert when it comes to Trinidad or Whitaker. I'm not really a expert on anything to do with Boxing, if I'm to be blunt, but every piece of evidence we have runs contrary to Dirty Dan's belief that Whitaker was a great opponent in '99. To list Whitaker as Trinidad's second greatest achievement ever in a career that spanned two decades is doing the man a disservice. The Vargas win was considerably better.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm not an expert when it comes to Trinidad or Whitaker. I'm not really a expert on anything to do with Boxing, if I'm to be blunt, but every piece of evidence we have runs contrary to Dirty Dan's belief that Whitaker was a great opponent in '99. To list Whitaker as Trinidad's second greatest achievement ever in a career that spanned two decades is doing the man a disservice. The Vargas win was considerably better.


The unfortunate thing for Tito is that I think he could've had a pretty good chance at putting Whitaker on his ledger years earlier. People wanted that fight going all the way back to '95, but the colorful history between the Duva clan and DKP put a wedge in between making it happen. Pernell was saying to bring it after the Jake Rodriguez fight.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm going to say I've seen the fight even if I haven't. I mean, of course I have, but why would I do something so stupid and self-defeating as admitting not to watching a fight having put fourth an opinion on it? That would be as ludicrous as vehemently insisting that Tito Trinidad had a greater career than Marco Antonio Barrera and then listing a blown up and inactive coke addict as his second greatest win. It's such a strange position to take as a fan of Trinidad, and verbs like 'motivated' and 'rejuvenated' add absolutely nothing to your argument. Muhammad Ali was motivated the night he lost to Larry Holmes, but motivation alone does not win you boxing matches.
> 
> There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Pernell Whitaker was anything other than severely past it. He hadn't fought for almost 2 years, well-documented drug abuse, operating above his optimal weight, and not a lot inside the ring, or indeed after the fight, would give credence to the notion that Trinidad beat a great fighter. Whitaker retired after the bout and then come running back once all the money had gone. Could it be any more obvious that Pernell's motivations were clearly financial? Whitaker relied on mobility and timing to outbox his opponents, once those physical attributes had dissipated -- as they typically do with age, inactivity and drug abuse -- then you're left with very little of what made them great in the first place.


Zzzzz Strawman argument. Bringing up Ali against Holmes is irrelevant, not sure what point you're trying to make with that. Ali was shot as dog shit, damaged goods, and was just going by on his name alone. He arguably lost the Norton fight 5 years before Holmes, debatable win over Shavers, lost to Spinks and had been retired for 25 months prior to his meeting with the Easton Assassin.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though. Tell me a legitimate fight that Whitaker lost prior to his fight with Trinidad? Other than the McGirt fights, tell me a fight where Whitaker took a lot of punishment? Like stated before, Whitaker was FADED.. but not shot. He had an excellent showing against a prime DLH(a fight in which I think he won), had a full training camp, motivated, and showed that he could still operate in the world level against an extremely hard puncher in Trinidad.

You've brought up no points or evidence in showing how Barrera and Morales are greater than Trinidad. You've just been copping out and bringing up irrelevant points. Still waiting on your argument.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm not an expert when it comes to Trinidad or Whitaker. I'm not really a expert on anything to do with Boxing, if I'm to be blunt, but every piece of evidence we have runs contrary to Dirty Dan's belief that Whitaker was a great opponent in '99. To list Whitaker as Trinidad's second greatest achievement ever in a career that spanned two decades is doing the man a disservice. The Vargas win was considerably better.


Tito's second greatest achievement was unifying the WW division. First was unifying the JMW division. His win over Whitaker was simply an underrated win over an ATG who was arguably undefeated prior to their meeting.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

delete


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

delete


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> This post raises the important question, what is an all-time great? How does one define its status?


Most say top 100 based on quality of resume; best wins.



DirtyDan said:


> Yawn... I'm still waiting on a response on how Barrera and Morales are greater than Trinidad. Nobody here has brought up any evidence.


Better resumes. Better top wins..



DirtyDan said:


> Mosley isn't even in the discussion since he admitted to taking steroids in his biggest win against DLH.


That was the 2nd fight, when he was with Balco, not the first. There's an assumption most elite athletes are on a substance, so when someone gets caught, people rarely consider it in their ATG standings. Nobody thinks RJJ was special because of steroids, for example.



DirtyDan said:


> So lets stack up their wins/accomplishments.
> 
> Trinidad's top 5 wins-
> *Oscar De Le Hoya*(p4p number 1, at worst you can score it a draw, at best a win for Trinidad).


Trinidad didn't beat Oscar. No way, no how. He was comprehensively outboxed. And without that win, Barrera-who beat Hamed and Morales; Morales-who beat Pacquiao and Barrera; and Mosley-who actually beat De La Hoya with no question or controversy-all stand well ahead of Trinidad. It's fairly simple.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> Tito's second greatest achievement was unifying the WW division. First was unifying the JMW division. His win over Whitaker was simply an underrated win over an ATG who was arguably undefeated prior to their meeting.


That's actually true. Nobody had come close to definitively beating Whitaker prior to that fight. I'm biased as hell so of course I didn't score Rivera I against him, and think he beat De La Hoya. :smile Pernell Whitaker is the Fighter of the Decade for me personally over Roy Jones, Jr. despite the fact that he didn't carry the same level of dominance past 1995.


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Bogo... Barrera beat Pacquiao?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Mal said:


> Bogo... Barrera beat Pacquiao?


I hit the edit button quicker than you hit the post button


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Most say top 100 based on quality of resume; best wins.
> 
> Better resumes. Better top wins..
> 
> ...


Yawn.. ok since we're playing that game.

Based on what reasoning still waiting with no counter arguments.
The balco investigation scandal happened in 2002, a year after his rematch with DLH. He used an undetectable drug which helped him pass tests up until he got exposed. The man was roiding since his WW days, adding 14 pounds of muscle in 5 months doesn't make any sense. Roy Jones got caught with ripped fuel same as his opponent, hardly call that the same thing. You can't just assume every boxer is on steroids, that's an extremely ignorant point of view and one not worth discussing any further.

He did beat him though, it's right there on the record books. You can score it either a draw or 7 rounds to 5 for Trinidad. A rematch was supposed to take place after Trinidad's destruction of Vargas, but DLH priced himself out, he didn't want it. Still waiting for that counter argument.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> Zzzzz Strawman argument. Bringing up Ali against Holmes is irrelevant, not sure what point you're trying to make with that.


You've reiterated more than once that Whitaker, in your mind, was "motivated and rejuvenated". I say that motivation alone has never won a professional boxing match. Whitaker may well have been motivated but that doesn't bring back any of the qualities he had before the drug abuse. Ali/Holmes is a valid comparison in that Ali was most likely motivated to win that fight too, but it didn't matter; the result was academic. I could have used a number of examples, the point is that throwing around words like "motivated" and "rejuvenated" does not mean a thing. Nothing. Zero.



> Hindsight is a wonderful thing though. Tell me a legitimate fight that Whitaker lost prior to his fight with Trinidad? Other than the McGirt fights, tell me a fight where Whitaker took a lot of punishment? Like stated before, Whitaker was FADED.. but not shot. He had an excellent showing against a prime DLH(a fight in which I think he won), had a full training camp, motivated, and showed that he could still operate in the world level against an extremely hard puncher in Trinidad.


I am not disputing that Trinidad deserves some credit for the win, of course he does, but you have vastly overvalued a '99 Whitaker if you consider that to be Trinidad's second best scalp. I can only repeat myself so many times -- a year and a half out, well-documented drug abuse, the welterweight limit, the age factor and the action inside the ring itself. Hands of Iron has already touched upon how Whitaker was showing signs of fading just as he made the move to Welter.



> You've brought up no points or evidence in showing how Barrera and Morales are greater than Trinidad. You've just been copping out and bringing up irrelevant points. Still waiting on your argument.


You've chosen to ignore every single one of my points because as I had predicted you were never really concerned with any opposing points of view. This is a platform for you to preach and laud the great Tito Trinidad, who judging by your avatar and past history at other internet forums is quite clearly your favourite fighter. And that's okay. But you're refusing to acknowledge well-documented substance abuse, long periods of inactivity and obvious signs of fading in footage that preceded the Trinidad fight by 3-4 years. That's disingenuous.

Dirty Dan is replying to every single post that is in conflict with his own with an obnoxious "yawn". I find that detestable.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> You can't just assume every boxer is on steroids, that's an extremely ignorant point of view and one not worth discussing any further.


The growing assumption is that all elite athletes are on something. The scandals in baseball, cycling, running sports, etc. and boxing itself has raised that suspicion greatly. So the ignorance is yours.



DirtyDan said:


> He did beat him though, it's right there on the record books. You can score it either a draw or 7 rounds to 5 for Trinidad.


Not if you know how to score boxing matches.

You know what else is on the record books? 2 of the judges giving Oscar the 12th when he clearly didn't win it, in order to make the robbery look closer.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> You've reiterated more than once that Whitaker, in your mind, was "motivated and rejuvenated". I say that motivation alone has never won a professional boxing match. Whitaker may well have been motivated but that doesn't bring back any of the qualities he had before the drug abuse. Ali/Holmes is a valid comparison in that Ali was most likely motivated to win that fight too, but it didn't matter; the result was academic. I could have used a number of examples, the point is that throwing around words like "motivated" and "rejuvenated" does not mean a thing. Nothing. Zero.
> 
> I am not disputing that Trinidad deserves some credit for the win, of course he does, but you have vastly overvalued a '99 Whitaker if you consider that to be Trinidad's second best scalp. I can only repeat myself so many times -- a year and a half out, well-documented drug abuse, the welterweight limit, the age factor and the action inside the ring itself. Hands of Iron has already touched upon how Whitaker was showing signs of fading just as he made the move to Welter.
> 
> ...


He was motivated and rejuvenated. Whitaker was a fresh 35, received minimal punishment in his career and also still had world class talent and arguably undefeated prior to his fight with Trinidad. Because a little coke was found in his system you think he was a full blown drug addict like Gomez and Pryor? Ali/Holmes is not a valid comparison, still wondering why you brought up that point. Extremely irrelevant.

Didn't over value the win, it is what it is. An underrated win over an ATG who still had gas in the tank, never soundly defeated before.

The whole point was discussing how Barrera and Morales had better careers than Trinidad. Nobody has stated that yet, just posted their baseless opinion instead of backing it up with facts. Trinidad is my favorite fighter in my lifetime along with Roy Jones, Pernell Whitaker, and Ricardo Lopez. Duran is my favorite fighter of all time, either way it's irrelevant to bring up. If any fighter is getting underrated then I'll post my opinion on why they aren't and try to back it up with facts as best as I could and hope other people will do the same thing. It's a boxing forum, ATG lists are completely subjective anyway. I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, you'll still think that Barrera/Morales had better respective careers... and that's ok, I'm not gonna lose any sleep at night. Tell me why though, break it down for me.

It's a known fact Trinidad got overrated during his legendary run before Hopkins. It's weird how vastly underrated he got after retiring though.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> The growing assumption is that all elite athletes are on something. The scandals in baseball, cycling, running sports, etc. and boxing itself has raised that suspicion greatly. So the ignorance is yours.
> 
> Not if you know how to score boxing matches.
> 
> You know what else is on the record books? 2 of the judges giving Oscar the 12th when he clearly didn't win it, in order to make the robbery look closer.


Assumptions.... lol.

Don't care what happens in baseball, cycling, running, etc. Extremely irrelevant when it concerns boxing. You play baseball, you don't play boxing. You're there to hurt the other man.. Mosley's name was mentioned in the balco scandal, he admitted to taking an unknown substance. The fact that he took steroids is already wildly publicized. He moved up and gained MUSCLE from 135-147 in 5 months. He had more energy than he ever had before in the DLH fight, throwing and landing over half of his power punches with incredible speed over 12 rounds. The PED he took is known to hide the substance from being seen in tests and to give MORE energy. This was the biggest win of his career and your reasoning for ranking him ahead of Trinidad.

Are we to assume that EVERY fighter during the late 90's/early 00's was taking the same shit Mosley was taking? Is this your reasoning?

Irrelevant fact, don't care what the judges had it, they were likely paid off or intimidated by Don King. I saw it either a draw or 7 rounds to 5 for Trinidad each time I watch it.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's actually true. Nobody had come close to definitively beating Whitaker prior to that fight. I'm biased as hell so of course I didn't score Rivera I against him, and think he beat De La Hoya. :smile Pernell Whitaker is the Fighter of the Decade for me personally over Roy Jones, Jr. despite the fact that he didn't carry the same level of dominance past 1995.


I can see Whitaker being ranked the fighter of the 90's ahead of Jones, they're both 1a and 1b to me, same as Pacquiao/Mayweather.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> He was motivated and rejuvenated. Whitaker was a fresh 35, received minimal punishment in his career and also still had world class talent and arguably undefeated prior to his fight with Trinidad. Because a little coke was found in his system you think he was a full blown drug addict like Gomez and Pryor? Ali/Holmes is not a valid comparison, still wondering why you brought up that point. Extremely irrelevant.
> 
> Didn't over value the win, it is what it is. An underrated win over an ATG who still had gas in the tank, never soundly defeated before.
> 
> ...


Barrera and Morales are better than Trinidad, though Tito was a great fighter in his own right. He missed a lot of guys at welter though, Quartey, Forrest, Rivera, the other champs. He spent too much time fighting these pointless fights.

and Whitaker was definitely faded, had a hard time with Rivera, with Hurtado and was getting injured and was coked up a lot of the time.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> Assumptions.... lol.
> 
> Don't care what happens in baseball, cycling, running, etc. Extremely irrelevant when it concerns boxing. You play baseball, you don't play boxing. You're there to hurt the other man.. Mosley's name was mentioned in the balco scandal, he admitted to taking an unknown substance. The fact that he took steroids is already wildly publicized. He moved up and gained MUSCLE from 135-147 in 5 months. He had more energy than he ever had before in the DLH fight, throwing and landing over half of his power punches with incredible speed over 12 rounds. The PED he took is known to hide the substance from being seen in tests and to give MORE energy. This was the biggest win of his career and your reasoning for ranking him ahead of Trinidad.
> 
> ...


Saying you don't care about what happens in baseball doesn't negate the fact that there's a widespread assumption PED's are present in most elite athletes. Your timeline is also off yet again, Balco was for the 2003 fight, not the jump from LW to WW.

If you saw that then you don't know how to score fights. And it's not irrelevant because it points to clear corruption. Trinidad did not win 7 rounds. Nobody else thinks so. The rest of Trinidad's resume doesn't compensate, he's not as great as the other 3 for that reason, and that's it. HOF, sure. Better than Morales, Barrera, and Mosley? No chance. He just doesn't have the wins.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> I can see Whitaker being ranked the fighter of the 90's ahead of Jones, they're both 1a and 1b to me, same as Pacquiao/Mayweather.


It's tough because Jones was *so fucking dominant* and caps it with one of the most one-sided schoolings of an elite talent in recent history. I rate Toney's skills incredibly highly, at least as far as his 160-168 days are concerned. I don't rate him over Chavez however, and whilst Pernell didn't beat him quite like _that_, it was pretty thorough. It would've been impressive enough had he done it using his jab, trademark defensive tricks and lateral movement but the most damning thing was that Whitaker got the better of it on the inside in most of the engagements. That is absolutely otherworldly and shouldn't of ever happened. You wouldn't think so anyway. Chavez was also rated #1 P4P even though Pernell himself had likely already unofficially taken that title from him.

Outside of that, he humiliated another ATG in Azumah Nelson who deservedly occupied a P4P spot himself at the time, beat Buddy McGirt twice who was one of the top five fighters in the game for certain in their first meeting, went up and beat the vastly underrated and forgotten Julio Cesar Vasquez at 154 looking clearly out of place and carrying the extra weight terribly sluggishly. Depending on who you ask, he also edged fucking De La Hoya who probably only would've been rated below Roy Jones himself at that point.

That's Fighter of the Decade material.



Bogotazo said:


> best wins. Best Wins. BEST WINS. BEST WINS?!?!?!


What fucking SKILL??? Whitaker's a COLLOSALLY talented motherfucker on film to boot. Top 5.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's actually true. Nobody had come close to definitively beating Whitaker prior to that fight. I'm biased as hell so of course I didn't score Rivera I against him, *and think he beat De La Hoya*. :smile Pernell Whitaker is the Fighter of the Decade for me personally over Roy Jones, Jr. despite the fact that he didn't carry the same level of dominance past 1995.


atsch


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Saying you don't care about what happens in baseball doesn't negate the fact that there's a widespread assumption PED's are present in most elite athletes. Your timeline is also off yet again, Balco was for the 2003 fight, not the jump from LW to WW.
> 
> If you saw that then you don't know how to score fights. And it's not irrelevant because it points to clear corruption. Trinidad did not win 7 rounds. Nobody else thinks so. The rest of Trinidad's resume doesn't compensate, he's not as great as the other 3 for that reason, and that's it. HOF, sure. Better than Morales, Barrera, and Mosley? No chance. He just doesn't have the wins.


I don't care because it's irrelevant to this discussion. It's an assumption, it's as simple as that. Are the people in the lounge right to assume that Islam promotes terrorism due to the overwhelming Muslim based attacks in the world? Of course not, because it's an ignorant way of thinking.

The balco scandal made headlines in August of 2002. The scandal was brought into light September of 2003, where a number of names were found in a house raid including Shane Mosley. The Mosley-DLH rematch happened August of 2003 which is why most associate that fight with Mosley using roids. The first DLH-Mosley fight happened in June of 2000. Mosley went from 135-147 in 5 months full of muscle and scored the biggest win of his career. The PED Mosley was taking(which gives the athlete more energy) is able to mask itself during steroid tests. Connect the dots.

Your last paragraph is baseless opinion holding no weight into this discussion. Still waiting for a counter argument, lmfao.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> atsch


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


>


Behave now :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> I don't care because it's irrelevant to this discussion. It's an assumption, it's as simple as that. Are the people in the lounge right to assume that Islam promotes terrorism due to the overwhelming Muslim based attacks in the world? Of course not, because it's an ignorant way of thinking.
> 
> The balco scandal made headlines in August of 2002. The scandal was brought into light September of 2003, where a number of names were found in a house raid including Shane Mosley. The Mosley-DLH rematch happened August of 2003 which is why most associate that fight with Mosley using roids. The first DLH-Mosley fight happened in June of 2000. Mosley went from 135-147 in 5 months full of muscle and scored the biggest win of his career. The PED Mosley was taking(which gives the athlete more energy) is able to mask itself during steroid tests. Connect the dots.
> 
> Your last paragraph is baseless opinion holding no weight into this discussion. Still waiting for a counter argument, lmfao.


To be fair though Mosley was legit dying making 135. His last fight there he was apparently 158 pounds on fight night. Mosley did admit to the scandal though and it's kind of moot since most felt he lost that fight anyways.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> Mosley went from 135-147 in 5 months full of muscle


Mosley didn't actually go up in weight.

He was a massive weight-cutter.

Aside from that your posts are filled with irrefutable facts these fanboys refuse to accept.

Bunch of latent oscarosexuals.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Behave now :lol:


It's just dissapointing because there's no point during the same point of their careers in which I'd pick Chavez to beat Whitaker. I think it only becomes a far more frustrating affair the fresher Pernell's legs get moving backwards in time. I also think he has problems with Oskee at 140 even if you stuck the '89-'91 Boolsheeto in there, and I brought that up with some recycled posts in this thread (http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...f-the-last-25-years.83441/page-5#post-2457337), I dunno how you feel about it. I started a whole topic on Chavez vs PBF, set it at Chavez's peak form (135 IMO), wrote some short paragraphs arguing his case and still wasn't even convinced myself. See how this is going? It isn't going good. It sucks, in fact. Sucks yeast infected, mildew scented poon. In terms of whatever, JCC has been occupying my #1 on a short rotation of faves for a few years now along with Pee and Robearto(e), but he wasn't infallible. Far from it. For all the uber-skills and utter completeness, he could be bested. He would be. And he was. Nobody should be beating him around his weight class on paper, much less real life.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

smh, Shane Mosley with the jheri curl


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's just dissapointing because there's no point during the same point of their careers in which I'd pick Chavez to beat Whitaker. I think it only becomes a far more frustrating affair the fresher Pernell's legs get moving backwards in time. I also think he has problems with Oskee at 140 even if you stuck the '89-'91 Boolsheeto in there, and I brought that up with some recycled posts in this thread (http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...f-the-last-25-years.83441/page-5#post-2457337), I dunno how you feel about it. I started a whole topic on Chavez vs PBF, set it at Chavez's peak form (135 IMO), wrote some short paragraphs arguing his case and still wasn't even convinced myself. See how this is going? It isn't going good. It sucks, in fact. Sucks yeast infected, mildew scented poon. In terms of whatever, JCC has been occupying my #1 on a short rotation of faves for a few years now along with Pee and Robearto(e), but he wasn't infallible. Far from it. For all the uber-skills and utter completeness, he could be bested. He would be. And he was. Nobody should be beating him around his weight class on paper, much less real life.


Everyone would have probs with Oskee at 140 before all of his partying Bull at 147 he started feeling himself too much.

Well the thing was with Whitaker is he could be lulled because he was so good, same with Jones, and at times it made fights boring. Whitaker because he didn't really have big power to finish these guys even though he has had some great ko wins and it sorta rubbed fans the wrong way. If Whitaker or Jones were ranked #1 I'd be totally fine with it.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> I don't care because it's irrelevant to this discussion. It's an assumption, it's as simple as that. Are the people in the lounge right to assume that Islam promotes terrorism due to the overwhelming Muslim based attacks in the world? Of course not, because it's an ignorant way of thinking.


Terrorism is something you don't hide because it's express goal is to have an effect on the public. So when a vast majority of them aren't killing anyone, it's fairly easy to see they aren't terrorists. Not so with drug testing. Failed analogy there. Not to mention the deep extent to which other sports have faced scandals. It's relevant, whether you like it or not.



DirtyDan said:


> The balco scandal made headlines in August of 2002. The scandal was brought into light September of 2003, where a number of names were found in a house raid including Shane Mosley. The Mosley-DLH rematch happened August of 2003 which is why most associate that fight with Mosley using roids. The first DLH-Mosley fight happened in June of 2000. Mosley went from 135-147 in 5 months full of muscle and scored the biggest win of his career. The PED Mosley was taking(which gives the athlete more energy) is able to mask itself during steroid tests. Connect the dots.


So now you're going to presume that Mosley was always a cheat. Was he on drugs when he totally outclassed Holiday and Golden Johnson? Shane looked worse against Oscar in the rematch at 154 on EPO than any time in his welterweight career.

Not a word on Tito's handwraps though eh? Far more dangerous to a fighter than better stamina.



DirtyDan said:


> Your last paragraph is baseless opinion holding no weight into this discussion. Still waiting for a counter argument, lmfao.


It strikes exactly to the heart of the argument, which is exactly why you can't address it. The vast majority of fans don't believe Trinidad won the fight. That leaves a paltry resume when you stack it up against wins over Barrera, Pacquiao, Morales, and an actual uncontroversial win over De La Hoya in electrifying fashion. Trinidad is not above those 3, because he doesn't have the wins to compare. Address that or stop talking shit.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> smh, Shane Mosley with the jheri curl


:rofl I hate this fight.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Terrorism is


Looking across the ring at your opponent and seeing Luis Manuel Rodriguez. He was that ugly. And scary great.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Bunch of latent oscarosexuals.


Triggered.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

@Hands of Iron is this thread really worth reading? The first page just made me feel upset.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Chacal said:


> @Hands of Iron is this thread really worth reading? The first page just made me feel upset.


Absolutely not. :lol: I think the quality did pick up a bit with Pedderrs and Bogo getting involved around the 5th page though.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Terrorism is something you don't hide because it's express goal is to have an effect on the public. So when a vast majority of them aren't killing anyone, it's fairly easy to see they aren't terrorists. Not so with drug testing. Failed analogy there. Not to mention the deep extent to which other sports have faced scandals. It's relevant, whether you like it or not.
> 
> So now you're going to presume that Mosley was always a cheat. Was he on drugs when he totally outclassed Holiday and Golden Johnson? Shane looked worse against Oscar in the rematch at 154 on EPO than any time in his welterweight career.
> 
> ...


:huh Wtf are you talking about first opening paragraph. Completely ignored the question, but whatever. Strawman.

It's ignorant to not think he wasn't roiding for the biggest fight of his career in the first DLH fight. The balco scandal HAPPENED in 2003, to think Mosley wasn't roiding before that is absurd. Was Barry Bonds, another athlete involved in the Balco scandal only roiding from 2003 onward? He had some of his best seasons in the late 90's and early 00's, breaking numerous offensive records in major league history.

Also, what about Tito's handwraps? He wrapped them up differently than what was procedure in New York. Any other place in the world and it'd be fine. He rewrapped them in the Hopkins fight and that was that. Why people still bring it up is weird. Oscar De La Hoya did the same thing in his fight vs Manny Pacquaio yet that incident gets swept under the rug.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/06/sports/sp-boxing6

Manny Pacquaio also wrapped up his own hands in many of his fights. I'm feeling like you're reaching here though.

The vast majority of fans are split down the middle. Some felt DLH won, some felt Trinidad won, some felt like it was a draw. DLH could of won if he didn't ran the last 3 rounds in fear of getting knocked out where Trinidad was at his most dangerous, but it is what it is. He priced himself out in the rematch. It's not a robbery by any means.

Whitaker, prime DLH, prime Vargas, Joppy, and prime Mayorga across 3 weight classes(13 pounds) are better top 5 wins than Barrera or Morales have, Mosley isn't even in the discussion at this point. You have still yet to prove otherwise, more baseless opinions instead of breaking it down. Like you said, quit talking shit and provide actual facts.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

turbotime said:


> To be fair though Mosley was legit dying making 135. His last fight there he was apparently 158 pounds on fight night. Mosley did admit to the scandal though and it's kind of moot since most felt he lost that fight anyways.


He was most likely roided in the first DLH fight. Too much circumstantial evidence to prove otherwise.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> :huh Wtf are you talking about first opening paragraph. Completely ignored the question, but whatever. Strawman.
> 
> It's ignorant to not think he wasn't roiding for the biggest fight of his career in the first DLH fight. The balco scandal HAPPENED in 2003, to think Mosley wasn't roiding before that is absurd. Was Barry Bonds, another athlete involved in the Balco scandal only roiding from 2003 onward? He had some of his best seasons in the late 90's and early 00's, breaking numerous offensive records in major league history.
> 
> ...


That's not what a strawman is, I don't think you understand the term.

Like I said, when Mosley was roiding is simply not a factor most fans take into account because you can't know who else is roiding, or when exactly they're roiding, and getting away with it.

But none of that really matters. Trinidad did not beat De La Hoya. Make a poll and you'll see that a majority of fans are not split, the fight is synonymous with robbery. Trinidad got schooled. Without that win, his resume doesn't compare.

Morales beating Pacquiao and Barrera is better than anything Trinidad ever did.

Barrera beating Morales and Hamed is better than anything Trinidad ever did.

Mosley styling on prime De La Hoya and winning without controversy is better than anything Trinidad ever did.

And that's all she wrote.

Make a poll on this too if you want to see how many people agree with you.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That's not what a strawman is, I don't think you understand the term.
> 
> Like I said, when Mosley was roiding is simply not a factor most fans take into account because you can't know who else is roiding, or when exactly they're roiding, and getting away with it.
> 
> ...


Yawn..... you're reaching hard now bro.

We're not in grade school anymore, I think a supposed educated man would know what a straw man argument is. Do I have to define it for you? A *straw man* is a common form of *argument* and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's *argument*, while actually refuting an *argument* that was not advanced by that opponent.

I asked a simple question. Are the people in the lounge right to assume that Islam promotes terrorism due to the overwhelming Muslim based attacks in the world? Instead of answering the question, you brought up a completely separate point to try and counter my argument. Straw man.

Irrelevant point involving Mosley. Mosley was CAUGHT roiding, and it raised questions to all of his recent bouts at the time.. Too much circumstantial evidence in the first DLH bout to prove otherwise. The same goes with Margarito's brick scandal, but that's another discussion. Your opinion on stating that all boxers are most likely on steroids is just that... an opinion. Less than 1 percent of all world boxers get caught doing it. Yet in your opinion they're all on it because of what? Other than that, Mosley's top 5 wins and accomplishments don't compare at all with Trinidad, and I'm still waiting for a counter argument other than your baseless opinions.

More baseless opinions in the next sentences without proving why. Lennox Lewis was a better heavyweight than Joe Louis. Why? Because he is.. this has been basically your sole counter argument throughout all of your rants.

A poll wouldn't prove anything. There's about 12 people who regularly post in the WBF with more or less the same opinions. It would be about as informative as asking whether or not Roy Jones had a greater career than Joe Calzaghe in the British forum of ESB.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Barrera beating Morales and Hamed is better than anything Whitaker ever did.


:rofl


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :rofl I hate this fight.


Watched it almost live.

Was a huge shocker, to say the least.

Some don't remember or don't know how highly was Mosley regarded back then.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Dirty Dan's too aggressive and condescending in debate. And I'm sure my posts have bored people to tears before, but nobody has actually felt compelled to physically type "yawn" at the point of actually yawning. I like Dan's quirks but we obviously have wildly different ideas on what constitutes good preparation ahead of a professional boxing match. I also suspect that we use different criteria for scoring fights.

This isn't pertinent to the discussion as such, but do you watch Trinidad-Hoya often @DirtyDan? I only ask because most of us here are able to watch our favourite fighter's greatest win and come away feeling elevated. @Hands of Iron is a big Gerry 'Slicker than Toney' Penalosa guy, so I know for a fact that he watches Gerry's schooling of Hiroshi Kawashima to capture the WBC World Super Flyweight title fairly frequently. Life long Johnny Nelson fan @Lester1583 is said to have the Thompson fight on VHS, laser disc, DVD and a framed shot from the moment of the stoppage hanging up in his lounge. But what about you Dan -- how frequently do you watch Trinidad-Hoya?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl


Ah crap.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> We're not in grade school anymore, I think a supposed educated man would know what a straw man argument is. Do I have to define it for you? A *straw man* is a common form of *argument* and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's *argument*, while actually refuting an *argument* that was not advanced by that opponent.


I obviously know what it is. I see you can use wikipedia, congratulations.



DirtyDan said:


> I asked a simple question. Are the people in the lounge right to assume that Islam promotes terrorism due to the overwhelming Muslim based attacks in the world? Instead of answering the question, you brought up a completely separate point to try and counter my argument. Straw man.


No, I pointed out why your analogy is false.



DirtyDan said:


> Less than 1 percent of all world boxers get caught doing it.


This was true in other more regulated sports at one point. In fact, it wasn't testing that expose Armstrong and the rest of the cyclers, but outside information.



DirtyDan said:


> Mosley's top 5 wins and accomplishments don't compare at all with Trinidad, and I'm still waiting for a counter argument other than your baseless opinions.


Mosley beat a prime Oscar decisively. Trinidad did not, because he got schooled. The rest of Trinidad's resume doesn't compensate for that and lacks truly great wins. Bye now![/QUOTE]


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I do think Tito's lopsided losses and inability to recover from them does hurt him. One cannot overlook his dominance at Welterweight though and the manner in which he was defeating the majority of his foes should be taken into consideration, but how adaptable was Trinidad? When he was faced against accomplished boxers in their physical primes did we ever see a plan B? Both Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales showed a capacity to adapt and rebuild when necessary, I would argue that Tito did neither. Those two came back from the dead on at least three occasions between them. This would be a moot point in the context of the debate if Tito had retired undefeated, because then he would not have had to show the character to rebound, but he did lose, and that was the last time he'd ever fight for a world title.

The Hoya debacle is also irrefutably hollow and unconvincing. He failed to show up in his career-defining fight, irrespective of what the judges decided, and that has to be considered when evaluating his career.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Watched it almost live.
> 
> Was a huge shocker, to say the least.
> 
> Some don't remember or don't know how highly was Mosley regarded back then.


I had the displeasure of seeing it live. Mosley took such a beating in the 2nd round, wow.

Just prior to that Shane was getting Ray Robinson comparisons. :verysad


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Ah crap.
> 
> It's a lovely list.


It really is, looks great with stats included. Amirite @Casual HOOOOOK

Julio Cesar Chavez (87-0) [#1 P4P] (31 years old)
Azumah Nelson (32-1) [#5 P4P] (31 years old)
Buddy McGirt x2 (59-2) [#5 P4P] (29 years old)
Julio Cesar Vasquez (53-1) [#1 LMW] (28 years old)
Rafael Pineda (28-1) [#2 LWW to JCC] (26 years old)

I find it necessary to list the correlating ages these days because one could just easily rattle off Floyd's wins over P4P opponents such as Shane Mosley and Juan Manuel Marquez. It isn't the only issue to be considered for certain (particularly in JMM's case), but those guys were in their mid-late 30s at the time. Says more about the state of the game, if you ask me. Others like Alvarez and Guerrero ( :rofl ) are just outright shams. Lester notes that there aren't any young lions, but there also aren't any well-past-its or greenies either. It's also interesting that Chavez and DKP opted to vacate the IBF strap rather than fight mandatory Pineda. The Colombian wasn't necessarily a world beater by any means, but his dimensions (6'0 with a 74" reach) did pose an interesting challenge.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ibf-president-bob-lee-bobby-lee-rafael-pineda

_NEW YORK - Julio Cesar Chavez said Monday that he is giving up his International Boxing Federation junior welterweight title because of a dispute with IBF President Bob Lee and promoter Bob Arum.

Chavez, who also holds the WBC super lightweight crown, said he is vacating the IBF title because Lee ordered him to defend his belt against No. 1 contender Rafael Pineda of Colombia.

"The purse bid was caused by the dealings of Bob Arum to interfere and block negotiations by me and my promoter with Pineda as well as with other potential opponents," Chavez said in a statement. "Bobby Lee`s actions and his dealings with Bob Arum have convinced me that I am not being treated fairly by Bobby Lee."

Chavez, undefeated in 74 fights, said he took the action with "great regret."_

Eh.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It really is, looks great with stats included.
> 
> Julio Cesar Chavez (87-0) [#1 P4P] (31 years old)
> Azumah Nelson (32-1) [#5 P4P] (31 years old)
> ...


The Vasquez win is underrated, he put on quite the performance against Winky.

Perhaps it's because he looked so weird sometimes.


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I do think Tito's lopsided losses and inability to recover from them does hurt him. One cannot overlook his dominance at Welterweight though and the manner in which he was defeating the majority of his foes should be taken into consideration, but how adaptable was Trinidad? When he was faced against accomplished boxers in their physical primes did we ever see a plan B? Both Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales showed a capacity to adapt and rebuild when necessary, I would argue that Tito did neither. Those two came back from the dead on at least three occasions between them. This would be a moot point in the context of the debate if Tito had retired undefeated, because then he would not have had to show the character to rebound, but he did lose, and that was the last time he'd ever fight for a world title.
> 
> The Hoya debacle is also irrefutably hollow and unconvincing. He failed to show up in his career-defining fight, irrespective of what the judges decided, and that has to be considered when evaluating his career.


Which 'career-defining fight' are you referring to?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hoya fight I'm guessing. That was his first big test IMO



Trail said:


> Which 'career-defining fight' are you referring to?


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## Trail (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Hoya fight I'm guessing. That was his first big test IMO


Misread the post T., apologies also @pedders


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Trail said:


> Misread the post T., apologies also @pedders


All good brother. We're debating Tito vs Morales in terms of greatness....who do you have?


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I had the displeasure of seeing it live. Mosley took such a beating in the 2nd round, wow.
> 
> Just prior to that Shane was getting Ray Robinson comparisons. :verysad


That was the fight which ruined Shane Mosley's confidence forever too. He never fought the same after. Just too skittish, rarely pumping his jab like he used to.


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> All good brother. We're debating Tito vs Morales in terms of greatness....who do you have?


In terms of boxing prowess I have Trinidad, in terms of entertainment I have Morales. In terms of greatness I have Tito...but Morales - as well as being a fucking fantastic boxer - was also an amazing crowd pleaser...Barrera - Morales I was something that just took my breath away.

As for Trinidad, as much as I like him, Hopkins played a blinder against him, took him straight apart.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Trail said:


> In terms of boxing prowess I have Trinidad, in terms of entertainment I have Morales. In terms of greatness I have Tito...but Morales - as well as being a fucking fantastic boxer - was also an amazing crowd pleaser...Barrera - Morales I was something that just took my breath away.
> 
> As for Trinidad, as much as I like him, Hopkins played a blinder against him, took him straight apart.


Fair assessments there. The writing was on the wall for Tito after the Oscar fight though. Moving jabbers just had his number.

That Morales fight I remember clear as day, had it on VHS :lol: There was a point in the fight where I swear Morales got blacked out by a Barrera combo and just blindly started firing back. Just vicious vicious stuff.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Mal said:


> That was the fight which ruined Shane Mosley's confidence forever too. He never fought the same after. Just too skittish, rarely pumping his jab like he used to.


I noticed that as well with the lack of a jab after that fight. Scared to put himself out there and basically became a slugger. Even though he damned well could've gotten the nod over a prime Cotto years later he was never the same. He did OK in the Forrest rematch, but he just fought so negatively.


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Fair assessments there. The writing was on the wall for Tito after the Oscar fight though. Moving jabbers just had his number.
> 
> That Morales fight I remember clear as day, had it on VHS :lol: There was a point in the fight where I swear Morales got blacked out by a Barrera combo and just blindly started firing back. *Just vicious vicious stuff*.


That's what I like about the fight game, and that's why I was such a big fan of Edwin Valero.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Trail said:


> That's what I like about the fight game, and that's why I was such a big fan of Edwin Valero.


Tell me you're not a fan of that can-crusher :-(


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Mal said:


> That was the fight which ruined Shane Mosley's confidence forever too. He never fought the same after. Just too skittish, rarely pumping his jab like he used to.


This is the real reason I hate that fight. Mosley used to be a fierce selfless competitor. But he bit off more than he could chew against a bad style match-up and got hurt and shut down. After that, we saw the acknowledging frown appear on Mosley's face far more often, and that feinting jab rarely had a threat behind it anymore. It probably didn't help that he fought him and Winky twice back to back.

I don't follow the philosophy that losing makes you weaker, but there is some truth when Floyd refers to dents in confidence in his opponents; "losing is already in his mind".


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> This is the real reason I hate that fight. Mosley used to be a fierce selfless competitor. But he bit off more than he could chew against a bad style match-up and got hurt and shut down. After that, we saw the acknowledging frown appear on Mosley's face far more often, and that feinting jab rarely had a threat behind it anymore. It probably didn't help that he fought him and Winky twice back to back.
> 
> I don't follow the philosophy that losing makes you weaker, but there is some truth when Floyd refers to dents in confidence in his opponents; "losing is already in his mind".


Yeah, that's one thing you one must admire about Shane, his willingness to settle the score, even after a bad loss. He was something to see at 135. That's where I fell in love with his game!


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> The Vasquez win is underrated, he put on quite the performance against Winky.
> 
> Perhaps it's because he looked so weird sometimes.


McGirt's performance in taking the Lineal 147 crown from Simon Brown was something to behold as well. Who can we say has a clearly stronger collection of Top 5 wins than Pea since Sugar Ray Leonard capped his legacy with the cherry in 1987? Which is incidentally right about the time Whitaker's career was about to really take off and would soon see him become the first undisputed 135 champ since Duran. It hasn't been done since. This isn't a rhetorical or disingenuous question by any means, I'm having fog.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Mal said:


> Yeah, that's one thing you one must admire about Shane, his willingness to settle the score, even after a bad loss. He was something to see at 135. That's where I fell in love with his game!


You'll rarely find a performance more complete than his dismantling of Golden Johnson. What a fighter. And what a difference in his versatility. "He's so slick; he's inventing punches in there."


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Tell me you're not a fan of that can-crusher :-(


He was fucking brilliant, T. I could watch the DeMarco fight over and over again. I think Valero was a certified lunatic, and that's what I liked about him. I don't particularly like the killing of his wife...but hell I liked him sparking folk out left, right and centre. Call me sadistic, you might, but he was entertainment times a million.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You'll rarely find a performance more complete than his dismantling of Golden Johnson. What a fighter. And what a difference in his versatility. "He's so slick; he's inventing punches in there."


I was watching this a couple of days ago!  I really wish Shane would have stopped at 140. I really believe he could have gone as one of the best ever at 140.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You'll rarely find a performance more complete than his dismantling of Golden Johnson. What a fighter. And what a difference in his versatility. "He's so slick; he's inventing punches in there."


Have this fight on VHS too  Johnson didn't land a punch in a round, only happened one other time. That combo that put him down the first time in the last round is in my heavybag combo special :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Feeling out of place with all this Shugah Shane love. Immensely entertaining in his hey, makes for some nice H2H fantasy fights but god damn was his 135 ledger wank.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Trail said:


> He was fucking brilliant, T. I could watch the DeMarco fight over and over again. I think Valero was a certified lunatic, and that's what I liked about him. I don't particularly like the killing of his wife...but hell I liked him sparking folk out left, right and centre. Call me sadistic, you might, but he was entertainment times a million.


He wasn't brilliant but he was definitely a top fighter. I loved the pic of him with the gash on his forehead and he is just grinning like an idiot :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Feeling out of place with all this Shugah Shane love. Immensely entertaining in his hey, makes for some nice H2H fantasy fights but god damn was his 135 ledger wank.


I don't think anyone disputes that, you lightweight loving nuthugger.


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> He wasn't brilliant but he was definitely a top fighter. I loved the pic of him with the gash on his forehead and he is just grinning like an idiot


:lol:
I have that picture on my phone screensaver...this one here...


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)




----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Trail said:


>


:yep shame what happened. he had big potential.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Feeling out of place with all this Shugah Shane love. Immensely entertaining in his hey, makes for some nice H2H fantasy fights but god damn was his 135 ledger wank.


Also the Margarito spanking.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I don't think anyone disputes that, you lightweight loving nuthugger.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Fair assessments there. The writing was on the wall for Tito after the Oscar fight though. Moving jabbers just had his number.
> 
> That Morales fight I remember clear as day, had it on VHS :lol: There was a point in the fight where I swear Morales got blacked out by a Barrera combo and just blindly started firing back. Just vicious vicious stuff.


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


>


^Reminds me once again why I've loved boxing for 30 years.


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Atrocious list. Tszyu should be on it. Kovalev should have priority over Golovkin too.

Where is Tyson? JCC? Barrera? etc..


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


>


So youve seen this fight as many times as I have :yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Nobody, I take it?



Hands of Iron said:


> McGirt's performance in taking the Lineal 147 crown from Simon Brown was something to behold as well. Who can we say has a clearly stronger collection of Top 5 wins than Pea since Sugar Ray Leonard capped his legacy with the cherry in 1987? Which is incidentally right about the time Whitaker's career was about to really take off and would soon see him become the first undisputed 135 champ since Duran. It hasn't been done since. This isn't a rhetorical or disingenuous question by any means, I'm having fog.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...julio-cesar-chavez-floyd-mayweather-jr.80491/

See @MichiganWarrior -- Even half of Historical (all six posters) have Mayweather over Chavez. Just simply isn't that controversial anymore, if it ever was. Floyd's dominance over world-level competition just simply extended for far longer (from 1998 to 2015). Chavez's run as a top fighter lasted from 1984 to 1993 with a couple of OK wins after the Whitaker and Randall debacles against Lopez, Parisi, Kamau (barely). He wouldn't even be an ATG on Bogotazo's list.

Meldrick Taylor x2
Edwin Rosario
Rocky Lockridge
Mario Martinez
Jose Luis Ramirez
Hector Camacho
Roger Mayweather x2
Juan Laporte
Ruben Castillo
Terrence Alli
Greg Haugen

Taylor was obviously a shooting star ATG _talent_ that took McGirt apart at 140 and probably better at the time than any single W of Floyd's. Rosario was P4P material and a deadly puncher with a proficient delivery system that he moved up to destroy in his signature performance. Lockridge should have wins over both Eusebio Pedroza and Wilfredo Gomez which greatly enhances things, though it was another close one mostly due to Chavez injuring his hand early in the fight. Really good win. Martinez was a great stoppage win over another up-and-coming fighter that would later suffer a robbery against Azumah Nelson. Jose Luis Ramirez was one of the best lightweights of the era (split fights with Rosario including a FOTY KO win) that took part in torch-passing activities with both Whitaker and Chavez, he was shop worn. After Camacho, it doesn't matter a whole lot.



MAG1965 said:


> He fought in a weak era which is what helped Hopkins, so hand picking guys at the right time works.





Bogotazo said:


> Hopkins did not handpick, he fought the best as an underdog countless times.





MAG1965 said:


> He did some good handpicking.





Bogotazo said:


> He didn't duck anybody, and his best wins were top guys in the division who he was an underdog against. So he didn't handpick.





MAG1965 said:


> There was a little bit handpicking.


:rofl


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


>


:rofl hilarious meme.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> So youve seen this fight as many times as I have :yep


There's a special aura around that fight in my mind. I'm not sure if we'll ever see a better fight involving two fighters of that caliber both smack bang in their respective primes.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :rofl hilarious meme.


You know I be bullshitting in that Duran/Hearns thread right? It is a trip though, May was 147 for an entire decade. His standing really ought to be higher within the division historically.


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> So youve seen this fight as many times as I have :yep


Yes, Sir...it never fails to please.


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

It's Pac for me who is #1. Considering he started as a Flyweight. Yes you can cite the debacle Mayflower fight but Duran & SRL lost to Hagler but it doesn't mean he ranks above them historically or 'p4p' though does it! In fact many people have beaten him it doesn't make them greater overall does it! The little fella has a resume to die for :

2-1 with Morales
2-0 over Barrera
2-2 (IMO) with JMM (Fights he won JMM was in his prime & at his best weight FW/SFW)
3-0 over Bradley (IMO)
Algieri
Rios
Mosley
Margarito
Cotto
Oscar
Hatton
Clottey
Diaz
Larios

Etc

I mean come on.. Considering his size & his extreme lack of amateur pedigree & early seasoning he is a boxing marvel! Sorry but for me it's Pac.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

SRL didn't lost to MMH.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You know I be bullshitting in that Duran/Hearns thread right? It is a trip though, May was 147 for an entire decade. His standing really ought to be higher within the division historically.


I didn't, because I know you love yourself Roboito and you are known to turn on Money at the drop of a dime.



Trail said:


> Yes, Sir...it never fails to please.





Pedderrs said:


> There's a special aura around that fight in my mind. I'm not sure if we'll ever see a better fight involving two fighters of that caliber both smack bang in their respective primes.


It was the fight that turned my stepdad into a boxing fan. We had one of those blackboxes that gave us HBO and all the free PPVs and I was championing this fight for weeks. I just remember him grabbing a beer in between rounds and running back before the next round started :lol:


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Pedderrs said:


> SRL didn't lost to MMH.


Sorry I put my own take on it. Officially you are right. Though I gave Hagler the fight, but I wouldn't call it a robbery..

I do rate Duran & SRL as overall greater fighters than Hagler though.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> There's a special aura around that fight in my mind. I'm not sure if we'll ever see a better fight involving two fighters of that caliber both smack bang in their respective primes.


MAB won all three and thus, can't possibly be lower than Morallah, Pacquiao horseshite be damned. Plus, few things ever been better than the Hamed walloping.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> *MAB won all three and thus,* can't possibly be lower than Morallah, Pacquiao horseshite be damned. Plus, few things ever been better than the Hamed walloping.


Youre all over the place.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Dooran's lightweight reign is actually a bit underwhelming. Eleta's a fucking tard and a lot of those fights are simply awful.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> MAB won all three and thus, can't possibly be lower than Morallah, Pacquiao horseshite be damned. Plus, few things ever been better than the Hamed walloping.


I've gone back and fourth with the first fight many times over. Nearly everybody I've ever talked to about the fight award MAB the first round. He loses it every time I watch. I think it's a genuine 50/50 fight depending on what criteria use. Morales is infinitely the busier, MAB landed much the harder shots. It's almost perfect.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I've gone back and fourth with the first fight many times over. Nearly everybody I've ever talked to about the fight award MAB the first round. He loses it every time I watch. I think it's a genuine 50/50 fight depending on what criteria use. Morales is infinitely the busier, MAB landed much the harder shots. It's almost perfect.


The phantom KD in the 12 sealed it for me. 50/50 up until then though.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> It's Pac for me who is #1. Considering he started as a Flyweight. Yes you can cite the debacle Mayflower fight but Duran & SRL lost to Hagler but it doesn't mean he ranks above them historically or 'p4p' though does it! In fact many people have beaten him it doesn't make them greater overall does it! The little fella has a resume to die for :
> 
> 2-1 with Morales
> 2-0 over Barrera
> ...


Larios, Rios? Clottey, Margarito? Cmon now.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Dooran's lightweight reign is actually a bit underwhelming. Eleta's a fucking tard and a lot of those fights are simply awful.


Its his dominance really. But yeah, he is no Gans


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Its his dominance really. But yeah, he is no Gans


One win moves him up 30+ spots. That's how great of a fighter Sugar Ray Leonard was.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> One win moves him up 30+ spots. That's how great of a fighter Sugar Ray Leonard was.


I'm kidding really. Gans crushed a lot of cans like Duran.At least we have footage of Duran at his best, and it may well be the most well rounded a fighter can be. *Talent + record = high rank*


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I'm kidding really. Gans crushed a lot of cans like Duran.At least we have footage of Duran at his best, and it may well be the most well rounded a fighter can be. *Talent + record = high rank*


And I'm bored, extremely irritated and want to go back to sleep. Ken Buchanan was fucking class though.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> And I'm bored, extremely irritated and want to go back to sleep. Ken Buchanan was fucking class though.


:lol: Dont let your cynicisal side come out.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :lol: Dont let your cynicisal side come out.


:yep

The post I addressed to MW on the last page is as cynical as I'll get with JCC. And I thought it was fairly measured.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I'm kidding really. Gans crushed a lot of cans like Duran.At least we have footage of Duran at his best, and it may well be the most well rounded a fighter can be. *Talent + record = high rank*


DeJesus III is pure bliss as far as an individual showcase. He peaked in terms of skill from 78-80 for me which is why I thought the "never meant to be a 147 fighter" comment was fucking stupid, tbh.

I wish JCC and PBF both spent more time at 135 anyhow. Almost extreme brevity.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> And I'm bored, extremely irritated and want to go back to sleep. Ken Buchanan was fucking class though.












Another great win.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nobody, I take it?


Leonard
Curry
Taylor
Mugabi
Locomotora

- Educate yourself, Balls of Plasticine.









Whitaker
Chavez
Mosley
Dorsey
Trinidad

- How do you like them stockings?









Carl Thompson
Marcelo Fabian Dominguez
Carlos De Leon
Ian Bollocks
Ezzard Sellers

- Happy now, bitch?









Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Pinklon Thomas
Jimmy Thunder
Oliver McCall
Alexander Zolkin

- Obscure enough for you?









Chang
Wilde
Cunto
Harada
R.Gonzalez

- Problem?









Now go back to sleep, Larry, you got served.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Nelson? You bias is showing, Lester.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

:rofl


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Popularity list. 

Glovkin has no place on that list. Nobody ever heard of him 4 years ago.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Nelson? You bias is showing, Lester.


Chavez-Taylor II is actually a pretty entertaining fight. I enjoyed it: festive MGM atmosphere (don't get that anymore), good action, supremely motivated TNT. Julio in the Maseca trunks @Zopilote. :lol: Still sort of boggles the mind why Taylor ever stepped in with Norris and then Espana, though he did look damn good against Aaron Davis at 147 a year after the Fight of the Decade.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I've been watching a lot of Trinidad today. A truly devastating hitter with a varied offensive arsenal. Great combinations. A notoriously slow starter though and not a great boxer by any means. The great boxer-punchers approached every fight with the intention of out-boxing the opponent and a knockout would be a by-product of that. Trinidad however seemed to go in with a different mindset. "Okay, I may lose these rounds, but eventually I'm going to land something big". An average chin, balance issues and not by means elusive makes it very, very difficult to favour Tito against great or even very good welterweights. Hearns wins early, SRL dominates en route to a late stoppage, and I think an earlier Pea would have offered more movement and won a UD. Mosley wins too, I think. Tito was not a H2H monster.

We can debate who had the greater career, but Barrera was the far more complete of the two.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :yep
> 
> The post I addressed to MW on the last page is as cynical as I'll get with JCC. And I thought it was fairly measured.


And let's be honest Floyd UD 12


Hands of Iron said:


> http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...julio-cesar-chavez-floyd-mayweather-jr.80491/
> 
> See @MichiganWarrior -- Even half of Historical (all six posters) have Mayweather over Chavez. Just simply isn't that controversial anymore, if it ever was. Floyd's dominance over world-level competition just simply extended for far longer (from 1998 to 2015). Chavez's run as a top fighter lasted from 1984 to 1993 with a couple of OK wins after the Whitaker and Randall debacles against Lopez, Parisi, Kamau (barely). He wouldn't even be an ATG on Bogotazo's list.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> And let's be honest Floyd UD 12


15 Rounds at 135 is my dream fight between them. I think that's where Julio has the best chance as said in the thread I made. They both could've competed in an 15R era with zero issues whatsoever due to their level of conditioning.


----------



## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Dirty Dan's too aggressive and condescending in debate. And I'm sure my posts have bored people to tears before, but nobody has actually felt compelled to physically type "yawn" at the point of actually yawning. I like Dan's quirks but we obviously have wildly different ideas on what constitutes good preparation ahead of a professional boxing match. I also suspect that we use different criteria for scoring fights.
> 
> This isn't pertinent to the discussion as such, but do you watch Trinidad-Hoya often @DirtyDan? I only ask because most of us here are able to watch our favourite fighter's greatest win and come away feeling elevated. @Hands of Iron is a big Gerry 'Slicker than Toney' Penalosa guy, so I know for a fact that he watches Gerry's schooling of Hiroshi Kawashima to capture the WBC World Super Flyweight title fairly frequently. Life long Johnny Nelson fan @Lester1583 is said to have the Thompson fight on VHS, laser disc, DVD and a framed shot from the moment of the stoppage hanging up in his lounge. But what about you Dan -- how frequently do you watch Trinidad-Hoya?


I watched it 3 times in its entirety. The 1st time was live with my father and uncles when I was 8 years old. My earliest childhood memories are hearing the classic HBO theme song and watching world class boxing every other Saturday with my father, going back to as early as 3 years old. Trinidad, DLH and Jones were the highlights of those memories.

The 1st time I watched the DLH-Trinidad fight, I just remembered my father and uncles being frustrated by what was going on. As the late rounds start approaching, they all were abhorrently dissatisfied at DLH literally running away at the championship rounds. As the final bell rang, there was a sigh of relief because DLH gave away the last 3 rounds, there was still a good chance that Trinidad might escape as the victor. The scorecards were read, and their cheers echoed throughout the neighborhood. The 2nd time I watched the fight in its entirety, I was a little bit older and more mature. The legendary nights episode of that match aired on TV, and they were discussing the controversy it caused. As I watched the bout on youtube, I was still confused on why DLH gave that match away. Several years after that, the fight is still being talked about long after both Trinidad and DLH retired. I scored the fight round by round as objectively as I could(giving the benefit of the doubt for Trinidad being the aggressor in some of the close rounds) and gave him rounds 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 11 and 12. This was the only fight where I actually had to turn off the sound due to the crowd yelling each time DLH landed a flurry. The majority of DLH's flurries were either ineffective or didn't land cleanly. Trinidad landed the more telling blows those rounds but missed wildly(and looked foolish at times) throughout the first half of the fight which is why some people associate it with DLH giving Trinidad a boxing lesson. 7 rounds to 5 for Trinidad is how I scored it, but it could of gone 6-6 giving DLH the 8th.

The fact is that DLH COULD of won the fight. He was boxing beautifully in the 9th round but stopped after being clipped by several of Trinidad's chunky left hooks. I personally don't feel like he was in danger of being knocked out, but I wasn't the one in there fighting for DLH and Trinidad did have ATG punching power in both hands. To answer your question though, this fight was a very disappointing fight. It is by no means Trinidad's best performance, he came in there with a poor game plan, while DLH executed the perfect game plan but gave it away for reasons unknown.


----------



## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I do think Tito's lopsided losses and inability to recover from them does hurt him. One cannot overlook his dominance at Welterweight though and the manner in which he was defeating the majority of his foes should be taken into consideration, but how adaptable was Trinidad? When he was faced against accomplished boxers in their physical primes did we ever see a plan B? Both Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales showed a capacity to adapt and rebuild when necessary, I would argue that Tito did neither. Those two came back from the dead on at least three occasions between them. This would be a moot point in the context of the debate if Tito had retired undefeated, because then he would not have had to show the character to rebound, but he did lose, and that was the last time he'd ever fight for a world title.
> 
> The Hoya debacle is also irrefutably hollow and unconvincing. He failed to show up in his career-defining fight, irrespective of what the judges decided, and that has to be considered when evaluating his career.


It did hurt him, but you can't really blame the guy. The Hopkins loss is a loss that hurt Trinidad's pride and most of all confidence. He could of rebounded from that loss, go back to 154 and find a new trainer too, his dad as a trainer was one of the biggest things holding him back. But he didn't though, and it's one of the major things that frustrates me about Trinidad's career. The Trinidad from the early and mid 90's was significantly different than the one in the late 90's to early 00's. He boxed more, set up his punches better and was the full package. He fell in love with his power though, and why wouldn't he? He had ATG punching power, could hurt anyone with either hand. He was just knocking mother fuckers out because he could. The same thing happened to Nonito Donaire which is why he gets severely underrated.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> 15 Rounds at 135 is my dream fight between them. I think that's where Julio has the best chance as said in the thread I made. They both could've competed in an 15R era with zero issues whatsoever due to their level of conditioning.


By the HOI...that Lockridge win isn't as close as many would have you believe. Julio put on a clinic, and after viewing a few more times, 4 rounds is the most I can give Lockridge.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> It did hurt him, but you can't really blame the guy. The Hopkins loss is a loss that hurt Trinidad's pride and most of all confidence. He could of rebounded from that loss, go back to 154 and find a new trainer too, his dad as a trainer was one of the biggest things holding him back. But he didn't though, and it's one of the major things that frustrates me about Trinidad's career. The Trinidad from the early and mid 90's was significantly different than the one in the late 90's to early 00's. He boxed more, set up his punches better and was the full package. He fell in love with his power though, and why wouldn't he? He had ATG punching power, could hurt anyone with either hand. He was just knocking mother fuckers out because he could. The same thing happened to Nonito Donaire which is why he gets severely underrated.


Yeah, I agree with you about Tito falling in love with his power. Michael Carbajal was exactly the same down at Light Flyweight. Donovan Ruddock at Heavyweight, Rosario at Lightweight etc. You can watch early Ruddock fights like the one against Mike Weaver and he is literally unrecognizable from post-Dokes. A lot of movement, pumping out the jab which earned him the nickname 'Razor' to begin with and looking to actually earn his wins honestly. Later on he would just continually try to land with the left hook or 'The Smash'. Tito stopped approaching fights with the idea of outboxing and outpunching his opponents and instead just went in there expecting to find the stoppage with the first punch he threw. You aren't beating Bernard Hopkins or Winky Wright with that mindset, although they'd have always been very difficult match-ups for Tito.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> 15 Rounds at 135 is my dream fight between them. I think that's where Julio has the best chance as said in the thread I made. They both could've competed in an 15R era with zero issues whatsoever due to their level of conditioning.


Chavez would have the advantage in a 15 rounder. He'd start off in a hole but a 15 rounder would give him plenty of time to work back in, May would be in trouble. Not many can say that. Floyd would've kod quite a few more fighters if 15 rounders were still a thing. I don't think Mosley, Cotto or Marquez see the final bell.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> By the HOI...that Lockridge win isn't as close as many would have you believe. Julio put on a clinic, and after viewing a few more times, 4 rounds is the most I can give Lockridge.


I think competitive probably would've been a better description than necessarily close. Just trying to be as objective as possible. It wasn't a fight Lockridge was going to win. Far from being one of my personal JCC favorites but what I do like about it was the showcase of his boxing ability.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I think JMM deserves the benefit of the doubt in seeing out even a 15 round fight with PBF. He was in trouble during the early goings but I don't remember him looking ready to go nearing the end. Perhaps my memory fails me.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Chavez would have the advantage in a 15 rounder. He'd start off in a hole but a 15 rounder would give him plenty of time to work back in, May would be in trouble. Not many can say that. Floyd would've kod quite a few more fighters if 15 rounders were still a thing. I don't think Mosley, Cotto or Marquez see the final bell.





Pedderrs said:


> I think JMM deserves the benefit of the doubt in seeing out even a 15 round fight with PBF. He was in trouble during the early goings but I don't remember him looking ready to go nearing the end. Perhaps my memory fails me.


I haven't seen any of them since they happened, I remember Floyd putting a pure clinic on Marquez and rarely if ever needing to impose his size advantage, he was walking and beating Mosley down, Cotto was shook by an uppercut in the 12th and then Floyd completely let off the gas for the remainder. I think he could've stopped Miguel over 15 if he had decided to go for it.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I have to give Dan a lot of credit in this thread, he went all out and argued his points pretty passionately.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I think competitive probably would've been a better description than necessarily close. Just trying to be as objective as possible. It wasn't a fight Lockridge was going to win. Far from being one of my personal JCC favorites but what I do like about it was the showcase of his boxing ability.


It's one my favorite Chavez performances. The jabbing, the movement, the counterpunching, those counter uppercuts. It was a great display, and a not a very common side of Chavez that we were used to seeing. Same goes for his performance against Ramirez.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Tito is lucky to have Dan. I think we could do without all the "yawn" and belittling though. Just make your points clear and concise and your rebuttals to the point. This kind of thing should never get personal.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> It's one my favorite Chavez performances. The jabbing, the movement, the counterpunching, those counter uppercuts. It was a great display, and a not a very common side of Chavez that we were used to seeing. Same goes for his performance against Ramirez.


Lockridge was out of necessity, Ramirez out of sympathy.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Those trunks just simply can't be beat. And I ordinarily don't like white.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I think JMM deserves the benefit of the doubt in seeing out even a 15 round fight with PBF. He was in trouble during the early goings but I don't remember him looking ready to go nearing the end. Perhaps my memory fails me.


The 11th round was pretty bad for Marquez. Floyd was walking him down and being more aggressive that round. He let off the gas after that though.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Those trunks just simply can't be beat. And I ordinarily don't like white.


JCC was arguably the best dressed fighter ever. He very rarely wore bad trunks.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> JCC was arguably the best dressed fighter ever. He very rarely wore bad trunks.


Prime this for a future avatar at once, Sir!

(Please)


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

His trunks for the Rosario and Taylor 1 fights FTW.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> His trunks for the Rosario and Taylor 1 fights FTW.


Where does the Francisco Tomas Da Cruz fight rank for you in terms of most enjoyable performances? Forget about level of comp, just strictly in terms of showcase.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Prime this for a future avatar at once, Sir!
> 
> (Please)


I've just sent it to you through PM.










JCC's spartan trunks for LaPorte. Beautiful.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> The 11th round was pretty bad for Marquez. Floyd was walking him down and being more aggressive that round. He let off the gas after that though.


Nacho was already threatening to stop it. Cotton blew his load in the 6-9th and had nothing left and was taking epic punishment for his efforts. I think Richardson wouldve shut Mosley down too

Castillo vs Money 1 would've went down as an ATG fight. They were getting it close quarters rounds 11-12


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Where does the Francisco Tomas Da Cruz fight rank for you in terms of most enjoyable performances? Forget about level of comp, just strictly in terms of showcase.


Number 3. After Rosario and Ramirez.

Very sick display from El Boolsheeto in that fight.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Watching the last rounds of MAB-Hamed is beautiful. Well ahead in the fight anyway, MAB comes out and dominates the last two rounds by going on the front foot and strafing Hamed with combinations. The two clearest rounds of the fight. In complete contrast to what ODLH did against Trinidad. MAB wasn't stupid enough to think the judges could be trusted in Vegas, he gave them absolutely no opition.


----------



## smokinjoe 89 (Apr 16, 2016)

Andre ward ahead of Morales ?? morales fought 23 former/ world champions than ward is his whole career, oh well it's their list a few others I disagree with but me arguing about it is not going to change anything!! XD


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Watching the last rounds of MAB-Hamed is beautiful. Well ahead in the fight anyway, MAB comes out and dominates the last two rounds by going on the front foot and strafing Hamed with combinations. The two clearest rounds of the fight. In complete contrast to what ODLH did against Trinidad. MAB wasn't stupid enough to think the judges could be trusted in Vegas, he gave them absolutely no opition.


As great as the Hamed performance was, I think Marco's best performance was against Jesus Salud.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> As great as the Hamed performance was, I think Marco's best performance was against Jesus Salud.


Enrique Sanchez is my favourite performance of MAB's. He dominated that fight entirely with his right hand, which was a surprise for most because MAB was known predominantly for his left. He would use the right hand in combination typically, but here he was leading with it a lot and countering beautifully. A boxing clinic against a fighter who had defeated him as an amateur. MAB was at his absolute peak here, just after the Hamed fight and before the return fight with Morales, a fight in which I thought he won fair and square.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Enrique Sanchez is my favourite performance of MAB's. He dominated that fight entirely with his right hand, which was a surprise for most because MAB was known predominantly for his left. He would use the right hand in combination typically, but here he was leading with it a lot and countering beautifully. A boxing clinic against a fighter who had defeated him as an amateur. MAB was at his absolute peak here, just after the Hamed fight and before the return fight with Morales, a fight in which I thought he won fair and square.


Yeh that's another great one. That right hand counter he knocked Sanchez down with was sexy as hell.

I thought he lost the 2nd Morales fight tho. He won the first one though.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Yeh that's another great one. That right hand counter he knocked Sanchez down with was sexy as hell.
> 
> I thought he lost the 2nd Morales fight tho. He won the first one though.


The first fight could have gone either way for me, as could the second I guess.





































What a little fighter MAB was.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Number 3. After Rosario and Ramirez.
> 
> Very sick display from El Boolsheeto in that fight.


I like Ramirez over Lockridge. Remember the counter right to the solar plexus bouncing off the ropes that put JLR into a squat? Others for pure enjoyment: Rosario obviously, Da Cruz, Haugen, Alli. The latter three of which were actually rated fighters in the division(s). Mitchell was another one, the sounds SHO happened to pick up on that broadcast were nasty; savage hooks to the body, turning him and unloading all sorts of combos, chaos in the corner between rounds, Mills Lane scolding someone for throwing shit into the ring, Chavez leaning over the ropes and talking shit to Camacho while the guy was taking the standing eight. :rofl


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I like Ramirez over Lockridge. Remember the counter right to the solar plexus bouncing off the ropes that put JLR into a squat? Others for pure enjoyment: Rosario obviously, Da Cruz, Haugen, Alli. The latter three of which were actually rated fighters in the division(s). Mitchell was another one, the sounds SHO happened to pick up on that broadcast were nasty; savage hooks to the body, turning him and unloading all sorts of combos, chaos in the corner between rounds, Mills Lane scolding someone for throwing shit into the ring, Chavez leaning over the ropes and talking shit to Camacho while the guy was taking the standing eight. :rofl


Yes! That right hand counter off the ropes against Ramirez was sick!

Martinez and Castillo are also some of my favorite performances by Julio.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> The first fight could have gone either way for me, as could the second I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think Zopi prefers the other two amigos. :sad5 A lot of people were put off in recent years by MAB's perceived jealously of Marquez's success against Pacquiao. His reaction to KTFO6 really was sort of priceless. This would be a great time for @PityTheFool to enter the thread.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Everyone would have probs with Oskee at 140 before all of his partying Bull at 147 he started feeling himself too much.
> 
> Well the thing was with Whitaker is he could be lulled because he was so good, same with Jones, and at times it made fights boring. Whitaker because he didn't really have big power to finish these guys even though he has had some great ko wins and it sorta rubbed fans the wrong way. If Whitaker or Jones were ranked #1 I'd be totally fine with it.


That son of a bitch Oscar came to the ring at damn near 165 in the second Chavez fight up at welter. The shots he took were fucking unbelievable.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> That son of a bitch Oscar came to the ring at damn near 165 in the second Chavez fight up at welter. The shots he took were fucking unbelievable.


So did JCC


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> So did JCC


I find that hard to believe, G. He came in three pounds under the 147 limit at the weigh-in. He didn't step on a scale pre-fight, but probably should've. He was terribly outgunned and you know it.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I think Zopi prefers the other two amigos.


That's cuz he's Mexican, unlike you, chicano-wannabe.

Of course he prefers Chucho & Herrera over these two popstars.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> That's cuz he's Mexican, unlike you, chicano-wannabe.
> 
> Of course he prefers Chucho & Herrera over these two popstars.


I've been to (and through) Culiacan thrice though. Zopilote lives in South Dakota.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I've been to (and through) Culiacan thrice


Got robbed, mocked and body punched to near death for faking a mexican mustache.



Hands of Iron said:


> Zopilote lives in South Dakota.


Zopilote lives on top of Morales' nose, you low down yankee liar.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I think Zopi prefers the other two amigos. :sad5 A lot of people were put off in recent years by MAB's perceived jealously of Marquez's success against Pacquiao. His reaction to KTFO6 really was sort of priceless. This would be a great time for @PityTheFool to enter the thread.


Are you like the self-appointed spokesperson for the forum or something?

You've made me testy.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Zopilote lives on top of Morales' nose, you low down yankee liar.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

:rofl

Oh you guys


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester is my favourite hipster.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)




----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


>


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


>


It did weigh heavily on my conscience, believe me. Let's not forget however, that I was the self-appointed spokesperson for the #AddieLegacyFoundation in your extended absence. That's gotta count for something.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> It did weigh heavily on my conscience, believe me. Let's not forget however, that I was the self-appointed spokesperson for the #AddieLegacyFoundation in your extended absence. That's gotta count for something.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


>


The side-by-side reactions of JCC and MAB as that happened speaks volumes about their certainty as it pertains to their respective standing in the sport and particularly where Mexican boxing history is concerned. It means a lot. Don't get me wrong, a great deal of this is nothing more than perception and Marco's reaction was entirely understandable and human. It kills him inside. I'd be bothered too, especially if I was the most complete fighter of the three in terms of ability.

@Bogotazo has utterly abandoned this thread now for some reason.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


>


Hilarity....but I think MAB always looks like that,


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> The side-by-side reactions of JCC and MAB as that happened speaks volumes about their certainty as it pertains to their respective standing in the sport and particularly where Mexican boxing history is concerned. It means a lot. Don't get me wrong, a great deal of this is nothing more than perception and Marco's reaction was entirely understandable and human. It kills him inside. I'd be bothered too, especially if I was the most complete fighter of the three in terms of ability.
> 
> @Bogotazo has utterly abandoned this thread now for some reason.


This is the guy who thinks Predator is social commentary.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> That's cuz he's Mexican, unlike you, chicano-wannabe.
> 
> Of course he prefers Chucho & Herrera over these two popstars.


Hands is more mexican than zopilote


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> This is the guy who thinks Predator is social commentary.


:rofl

I'm better at hard trolling than I thought. Ironically enough, I don't think I've spoken of it since then. Still better than any JVD, and Total Recall actually is psychologically brilliant.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> 
> I'm better at hard trolling than I thought. Ironically enough, I don't think I've spoken of it since then. Still better than any JVD, and Total Recall actually is psychologically brilliant.


Total Recall isn't very good to be honest. Especially when you consider it had a bigger budget than JCVD's entire filmography combined.

JCVD is my guy.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Geez, what's so offensive about believing MAB the best of the three individually H2H? Thought that post was complimentary if anything.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Total Recall isn't very good to be honest. Especially when you consider it had a bigger budget than JCVD's entire filmography combined.
> 
> JCVD is my guy.


This sums it up well:

http://www.deepfocusreview.com/reviews/totalrecall.asp

I don't feel the need to write up any more essays after the Hiroshima Bomb I dropped in the Kobe Bryant thread last night. If this place wasn't so interested in nauseating and utterly irrelevant Eddie Hearn interviews and Futbol, I'd have as many 'Likes' as you for that effort. We'll still be talking Spence vs Brook a fucking year from now. Yay Modern Boxing. You suck ass.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I think you greatly overestimate people's needs to hear you wax lyrical, Hands.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Hilarity....but I think MAB always looks like that,


Always has that cold look in his face.

I like it.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I think you greatly overestimate people's needs to hear you wax lyrical, Hands.


I imagine they would rather not.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Hands is more mexican than zopilote


Just cuz Hands is 5′ 3″ doesn't make him Mexican.
Otherwise @Flea Man would be Mexican too.

Here's a picture of a 15 year old Zopilote:









Any more jokes, Ryan?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> Always has that cold look in his face.
> 
> I like it.


Even when Pacquiao shellacked him he looked like that. When he beat Morales he looked like that :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Just cuz Hands is 5′ 3″ doesn't make him Mexican.
> Otherwise Flea Man would be Mexican too.
> 
> Here's a picture of a 15 year old Zopilote:
> ...


:rofl :rofl I shouldn't laugh basically we're the same size except I'm leaner with a couple degrees in jiu jitsu :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Just cuz Hands is 5′ 3″ doesn't make him Mexican.
> Otherwise Flea Man would be Mexican too.
> 
> Here's a picture of a 15 year old Zopilote:
> ...


:lol:

As would Turbo. He's a little cunt too. And I believe everyone you mentioned is actually 5'7 or so.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

^^ 5'6"


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I'm more feminine with delusions about jiu jitsu


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


>


Holy shit :rofl I am pretty but boy can I lock in an armbar when needed.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Geez, what's so offensive about believing MAB the best of the three individually H2H? Thought that post was complimentary if anything.


I am not offended. I'm sure MAB is delighted to have your approbation. Besides, it's nice to hear you give observations on fighters not named named James Toney, Julio Cesar Chavez or Pernell Whitaker for a change.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I am pretty weak but boy can I lock in a lesbian scissor triangle when needed.


Sounds like you and Haggis have a lot to discuss, Ronda.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I am not offended. I'm sure MAB is delighted to have your approbation. Besides, it's nice to hear you give observations on fighters not named named James Toney, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Roberto Duran, Mike McCallum, Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson, Kid Gavilan or Ernesto Marcel for a change.


Fixed. :good


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Sounds like you and Haggis have a lot to discuss, Ronda.


:lol: weve discussed


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

MAB was definitely the most complete of the three amigos, bar the durability of the other two and the right hand (although it was very good, but nothing like the other two). He was by far better than the others on the front foot.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Fixed. :good


How could I forget Dooran and McCallum?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> How could I forget Dooran and McCallum?


I don't know, I actually prefer McCallum over Toney as well. I tried emphasizing that three years ago but you just wouldn't have it. Floyd is a wildly obvious one as well, maybe even the most discussed as he was an active fighter. There was a huge Gavilan phase in there too when Lester was going LMR crazy in every thread.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Gerry is slicker than all these guys.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Gerry is slicker than all these guys.


Who's your Top 10 faves? I've forgotten for most of you the further it goes down. @turbotime @Zopilote as well. These last few weeks have almost been a sort of forum reunion.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Who's your Top 10 faves? I've forgotten for most of you the further it goes down. @turbotime @Zopilote as well. These last few weeks have almost been a sort of forum reunion.


These are my guys.

1. Marco Antonio Barrera
2. Myung Woo Yuh
3. Gerry Penalosa
4. Julio Cesar Chavez
5. Michael Spinks
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Fighting Harada
8. Michael Carbajal
9. Riddick Bowe
0. Hiroshi Kawashima

Starling, Ortiz and Zarate might be on there soon. I've not seen much of those guys but what I have seen I liked a lot.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Who's your Top 10 faves? I've forgotten for most of you the further it goes down. @turbotime @Zopilote as well. These last few weeks have almost been a sort of forum reunion.


Fuck it's been lovely....

oskee
RJJ
money
ali
whitaker
duran
robinson
Mosley
gatti


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> These are my guys.
> 
> 1. Marco Antonio Barrera
> 2. Myung Woo Yuh
> ...


This is very original and personal, I like it. Unsurprisingly, I have seen zero of Yuh and Kawashima. Nada.



turbotime said:


> Fuck it's been lovely....
> 
> oskee
> RJJ
> ...


Snubbing Ike? Or was it Beau Jack you were on about? Grandfather would be disappointed at another exclusion.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> This is very original and personal, I like it. Unsurprisingly, I have seen zero of Yuh and Kawashima. Nada.
> Snubbing Ike? Or was it Beau Jack you were on about? Grandfather would be disappointed at another exclusion.


ew on my part. Joe louis in therel missing my man Beau too


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> ew on my part. Joe louis in therel missing my man Beau too


Chills.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> This is very original and personal, I like it. Unsurprisingly, I have seen zero of Yuh and Kawashima. Nada.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Chills.


yeah.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


>


What a little monster.

ATM:

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Roberto Duran
4. Mike McCallum
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. James Toney
7. Floyd Mayweather
8. Kid Gavilan
9. Ernesto Marcel
0. (Vacant)

Have to give props to sweet_scientist for getting me into Marcel *years* ago when I was still just browsing ESB. The guy was quite honestly the best poster of all-time IMO and there were a lot of heavyweights in that forum. Yes, including you Addie. He had an otherwise exquisite taste in fighters as well with Pea, Chavez, Keed up near the top. I don't think he loved Duran per se, but rated him as the second-most skilled fighter.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I like Ramirez over Lockridge. Remember the counter right to the solar plexus bouncing off the ropes that put JLR into a squat? Others for pure enjoyment: Rosario obviously, Da Cruz, Haugen, Alli.


What's with the unanimous ignore of



Lester1583 said:


> JC - Uncle Roger 1.
> 
> Tyson-Ali that never happened?
> 
> Definitely, yes.


That's like discussing Norris and not mentioning his ATG domination of Rene Jacqout.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> What a little monster.
> 
> ATM:
> 
> ...


Yuh reminds me a little bit of Chavez with the way he goes to body and head. He also throws a good lead right hand. Not much in the way of power but his intangibles cannot be messed with. I don't think he was down in his entire career and routinely went the 15 round distance without breaking a sweat. 17 consecutive defenses of his WBA World Light Flyweight Championship. Lost it controversially to Hiroki Ioka in Japan. He took a year off and come back to avenge the defeat in Hiroki's backyard before making one last defense and retiring. It really doesn't get much better than that. Struggled with tall boxer types though and his level of competition was poor compared to other great Light Flyweights. If you watch any fight of his, it should be against Oh Kon Son. A clinic.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> What a little monster.


Bland, faceless, disgracefully feather fisted.

Imagine if JC's trunks and Brian Mitchell's mustache had an aborted son.

That's what Meowyung is.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Yuh reminds me a little bit of Chavez with the way he goes to body and head. He also throws a good lead right hand. Not much in the way of power but his intangibles cannot be messed with. I don't think he was down in his entire career and routinely went the 15 round distance without breaking a sweat. 17 consecutive defenses of his WBA World Light Flyweight Championship. Lost it controversially to Hiroki Ioka in Japan. He took a year off and come back to avenge the defeat in Hiroki's backyard before making one last defense and retiring. It really doesn't get much better than that. Struggled with tall boxer types though and his level of competition was poor compared to other great Light Flyweights. If you watch any fight of his, it should be against Oh Kon Son. A clinic.


Believe me when I say I'm genuinely intrigued. What happened a long way back is that I came to the reality that you know well: This stuff is unconquerably time consuming to get a true, adequate handle on. I mean a real handle. It helps greatly to have been there and watch it unfold as it happened. Quite jealous of @Duo and the like. I miss john garfield (Joe Rein) who once told me an observation I made on SRR was the "most astute" he'd ever read. That was the shit. It's funny you mention the few fighters I go into great detail about but honestly, their careers would probably be enough to tide me over for god knows how long and took long enough to digest as it is and be able to discuss with any semblance of a respectable clue. And what of their opponents to boot? So in order to compensate for that, I started taking just a handful of fights from probably over 100+ notable guys there's been throughout the sport, going though and memorizing ratings at the time and such, researching and shit. Enough to know a wee bit about a lot. And this is just one topic, one sport were talking about. What about (for me) basketball? gridiron? I know those to a vastly greater extent. What about films, albums, books and art? What about history? The bills still have to be payed too. You still have to go outside once in a while. You still have friends. You still have relationships and a sex life. It's impossible, dude.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> What's with the unanimous ignore of
> 
> That's like discussing Norris and not mentioning his ATG domination of Rene Jacqout.


Because - in a shocker that will knock Addie on his arse - I was not a fan of the green trunks in that bout. Visuals dominate my life, you know that. It was a pristine destruction though.






@MichiganWarrior I'd say this is the final word.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Who's your Top 10 faves? I've forgotten for most of you the further it goes down. @turbotime @Zopilote as well. These last few weeks have almost been a sort of forum reunion.


Julio Cesar Chavez
Roberto Duran
Pernell Whitaker
Mike McCallum
Vicente Saldivar
Ruben Olivares
Marvin Hagler
Juan Manuel Marquez
Roman Gonzalez
Alexis Arguello


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Bland, faceless, disgracefully feather fisted.
> 
> Imagine if JC's trunks and Brian Mitchell's mustache had an aborted son.
> 
> That's what Meowyung is.





Hands of Iron said:


> Because - in a shocker that will knock Addie on his arse - I was not a fan of the green trunks in that bout. Visuals dominate my life, you know that. It was a pristine destruction though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Motherfucker fought all those motherfuckers".


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> 1. Julio Cesar Chavez
> 2. Pernell Whitaker
> 3. Roberto Duran
> 4. Mike McCallum





Zopilote said:


> Julio Cesar Chavez
> Roberto Duran
> Pernell Whitaker
> Mike McCallum


:flossy


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Doesn't everyone list Dooran and Pea?


----------



## Lunny (May 31, 2012)

Holy 7 and lennox 12...makes sense..NAHT


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Doesn't everyone list Dooran and Pea?


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

@Hands of Iron Our similar tastes in Boxers, Alice In Chains, and Wu-Tang is quite scary..are you my long lost brother or something?? :yep


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


>


I don't like Dooran and could go my whole life without watching another Pernell Whitaker snooze fest.

Come at me.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The side-by-side reactions of JCC and MAB as that happened speaks volumes about their certainty as it pertains to their respective standing in the sport and particularly where Mexican boxing history is concerned. It means a lot. Don't get me wrong, a great deal of this is nothing more than perception and Marco's reaction was entirely understandable and human. It kills him inside. I'd be bothered too, especially if I was the most complete fighter of the three in terms of ability.
> 
> @Bogotazo has utterly abandoned this thread now for some reason.


Hehe, sorry. Was at the fights live.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Hehe, sorry. Was at the fights live.


ESJ?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> @Hands of Iron Our similar tastes in Boxers, Alice In Chains, and Wu-Tang is quite scary..are you my long lost brother or something?? :yep


Probably. 'The fuck, you even moved within an earshot of Sioux Falls while I've had several travels to Mexico. :rofl


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Probably. 'The fuck, you even moved within an earshot of Sioux Falls while I've had several travels to Mexico. :rofl


:rofl right??

Didn't you say you have some family close by here??


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> ESJ?


Yep.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> :rofl right??
> 
> Didn't you say you have some family close by here??


North & South Dakota.



Bogotazo said:


> Yep.


ILL.

Anyway, the questions were:

01. Does Whitaker have the best collection of Top 5 wins since SRL?

02. Who do you rate higher between PBF and JCC? They both fall short of your ATG-In-Prime criteria, but they both took out P4P talents and multitude of quality fighters over a period of time, both two of the best ever on film. I linked your own god damn thread in Historical too. :lol:



Hands of Iron said:


> It really is, looks great with stats included.
> 
> Julio Cesar Chavez (87-0) [#1 P4P] (31 years old)
> Azumah Nelson (32-1) [#5 P4P] (31 years old)
> ...





Hands of Iron said:


> McGirt's performance in taking the Lineal 147 crown from Simon Brown was something to behold as well. Who can we say has a clearly stronger collection of Top 5 wins than Pea since Sugar Ray Leonard capped his legacy with the cherry in 1987? Which is incidentally right about the time Whitaker's career was about to really take off and would soon see him become the first undisputed 135 champ since Duran. It hasn't been done since. This isn't a rhetorical or disingenuous question by any means, I'm having fog.





Hands of Iron said:


> http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...julio-cesar-chavez-floyd-mayweather-jr.80491/
> 
> See @MichiganWarrior -- Even half of Historical (all six posters) have Mayweather over Chavez. Just simply isn't that controversial anymore, if it ever was. Floyd's dominance over world-level competition just simply extended for far longer (from 1998 to 2015). Chavez's run as a top fighter lasted from 1984 to 1993 with a couple of OK wins after the Whitaker and Randall debacles against Lopez, Parisi, Kamau (barely). He wouldn't even be an ATG on Bogotazo's list.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

turbotime said:


> Larios, Rios? Clottey, Margarito? Cmon now.


What?! Just a couple of those wins would be an entire career for some.. All combined make an excellent set of wins. Larios is a former WBC Super Bantamweight and Featherweight champion. Beat Wayne McCullough twice & Israel Vazquez. It's a noteworthy scalp. MP has the deepest resume of anyone in years! This is just fact. Considering his size & his lack of amateur pedigree he is a boxing marvel! He also ducked no one, fought all styles & emerged as the best overall of the fab four of the 00's! He had fighters to define himself against just like the fab four from the 80's! Losing to Floyd when both were over the hill (probably more so Manny due to his fighting style) makes no difference for me. Hopkins lost to Calzaghe & Duran lost to Hagler but I still rate both Hopkins & Duran higher historically & p4p than either of those two. If you don't agree fine but these lists are subjective & personal to each individual & truth be told there isn't a definitive, set in stone, top 25 list of fighters! I mean this specific list.. No Tyson! Even Dariusz Michalkzewski has a shout at it! No mention of either..


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> LMR fever


El Feo still is criminally underrated even by hardcore fans.

Worse than animals.



Pedderrs said:


> Starling, Ortiz and* Zarate* might be on there soon. I've not seen much of those guys but what I have seen I liked a lot.


@Flea Man is crying in his brothel right now, while awaiting for the next customer.



turbotime said:


> Fuck it's been lovely....


Pathetically mainstream list, biebs.



Pedderrs said:


> Lester is my favourite hipster.


Not a single mention of Hagler from anyone, except Z.

Who's the real hipster here*, *Mai Li?




Zopilote said:


> Julio Cesar Chavez
> Roberto Duran
> Pernell Whitaker
> Mike McCallum
> ...


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> What?! Just a couple of those wins would be an entire career for some.. All combined make an excellent set of wins. Larios is a former WBC Super Bantamweight and Featherweight champion. Beat Wayne McCullough twice & Israel Vazquez. It's a noteworthy scalp. MP has the deepest resume of anyone in years! This is just fact. Considering his size & his lack of amateur pedigree he is a boxing marvel! He also ducked no one, fought all styles & emerged as the best overall of the fab four of the 00's! He had fighters to define himself against just like the fab four from the 80's! Losing to Floyd when both were over the hill (probably more so Manny due to his fighting style) makes no difference for me. Hopkins lost to Calzaghe & Duran lost to Hagler but I still rate both Hopkins & Duran higher historically & p4p than either of those two. If you don't agree fine but these lists are subjective & personal to each individual & truth be told there isn't a definitive, set in stone, top 25 list of fighters! I mean this specific list.. No Tyson! Even Dariusz Michalkzewski has a shout at it! No mention of either..


Pacquiao and Mayweather have even up resumes. Not to mention Mayweather spanked him when they finally met, and would have at any weight class. Funny when the fight was being signed in 2009 pretty much everyone was saying floyd would win. Floyd went largely untouched in his career lets not forget when Manny has been sparked clean out and outboxed a few times.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Pathetically mainstream list, biebs.


I could list Ricardo Lopez if I wanted mainstream.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> MAB was definitely the most complete of the three amigos, bar the durability of the other two and the right hand (although it was very good, but nothing like the other two). He was by far better than the others on the front foot.


You think? His boxing was pretty much exploited in the Jones and McKinney fights.


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## Trail (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> You think? His boxing was pretty much exploited in the Jones and McKinney fights.


His finest hour was Hamed, mind. Having said this Morales and Pacquiao fights were pretty special.


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## Trail (May 24, 2013)

delete


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## Trail (May 24, 2013)

delete


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Trail said:


> His finest hour was Hamed, mind. Having said this Morales and Pacquiao fights were pretty special.


Yeah its a shame Hamed wasn't in the mix more in the midst of Marquez, Pac and MAB years. Weird to think Marquez actually turned him down. Pac at 126 wouldve been a war..


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> You think? His boxing was pretty much exploited in the Jones and McKinney fights.


MAB improved exponentially with the Junior Jones defeats in my estimation. He had an arrogant disregard for his opponents during his 122lbs title run, and I suppose it stands to reason considering how easily he was defeating most of his challengers. McKinney and Jones both represented a step up in class from the Croft's and Magana's of the world though, and they were both able to expose Marco's frailties with their experience and respective boxing abilities. Marco's right hand was such an underused weapon during this time that you could almost have referred to him as a one handed fighter. That's in complete contrast to his performances up at 126lbs, where he would routinely dictate and dominate fights not just with a commanding jab and his patented hooks to body and head, but a beautiful straight right hand also. MAB developed into a tremendously effective boxer-puncher. It's a shame his improvements and change in mindset coincided with his physical decline.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> You think? His boxing was pretty much exploited in the Jones and McKinney fights.


He improved significantly years after those fights.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> 01. Does Whitaker have the best collection of Top 5 wins since SRL?


Probably. Floyd, Manny, Lewis, Oscar, Marquez, Morales, Barrera, Mosley, Tyson don't have a top 5 that stacked. A few might have better single wins but Whitaker's own single win is still pretty special, and the rest of his resume beats out anyone else's 2nd and 3rd best wins.

If you want to get really anal we can do a comparison by tiers.



Hands of Iron said:


> 02. Who do you rate higher between PBF and JCC? They both fall short of your ATG-In-Prime criteria, but they both took out P4P talents and multitude of quality fighters over a period of time, both two of the best ever on film. I linked your own god damn thread in Historical too. :lol:


This question plagues me. It's largely a question of name vs. condition. I distinctly remember you saying a year or two ago that the Meldrick Taylor was more of a "physical force" at welterweight than Pacquiao, and that stuck with me. The greater fighter isn't always the most formidable one on the night in question.

Chavez has:

Taylor
Rosario
Camacho
Ramirez
Laporte
Lockridge 
Martinez
Haugen
R. Mayweather

There's not really anyone too far removed from their prime on that list (correct me if I'm wrong).

Floyd's names are greater, but they sometimes come with an age-related caveat.

*Pacquiao
Corrales
Castillo
*De La Hoya
Hatton
*Cotto
Canelo
*Mosley
JMM

At 140/147, how do faded Pac/Shane, JMM, and Hatton do against the Taylor that Chavez fought before he went on to beat Davis? Or against a prime Camacho?

Do Rosario/Ramirez beat Castillo at 135?

What about Laporte/Lockridge/Roger against that version of Corrales at 130?

Canelo/Cotto/Oscar don't have a weight equivalent, but how does their pound for pound ranking and ability on the night compare?

Plus, taking into account the advantages/disadvantages each man had.

These aren't rhetorical questions. They're questions that, once you answer, could help determine the answer.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

@Lester1583 how do you see this exhibition between el boolsheeto and the poo man going??


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Because - in a shocker that will knock Addie on his arse - I was not a fan of the green trunks in that bout. Visuals dominate my life, you know that. It was a pristine destruction though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"That muthafucka man....*shakes head* shiiiit"

Reminds me of my dad when I asked him if Larry Bird was overrated


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Floyd certainly beats everyone on Chavez's win column. Lockridge, Mayweather (II) and LaPorte are not anywhere near as competitive either.

Camacho was not prime in '92.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Floyd certainly beats everyone on Chavez's win column. Lockridge, Mayweather (II) and LaPorte are not anywhere near as competitive either.


I agree but that's a different question.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

De La Hoya and Pacquiao, aging or not, were both world class operators on the night Floyd defeated them. In other words, they are significantly better scalps than the likes of Lockridge, La Porte, Mayweather, Ramirez, Camacho, Martinez and Rosario. And if Greg Haugen is being listed as some kind of signature win, where's Zab Judah, Jesus Chavez, Carlos Hernandez or Saul Alvarez?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Missing Holyfield in that grouping, Bogo. Pedderrs has some inexplicable Mayweather nuthugging going on and he's getting on my fucking nerves big time because so much of it is true. I do love Floyd, I do. Just not as much as a handful of others.



Pedderrs said:


> Wax Lyrical.





turbotime said:


> It's been lovely.







^^ Should've blown up on that @tommygun711 -- Murdered it twice as hard as Jada. What a robbery. He has legit grievances.



MichiganWarrior said:


> That muthafucka man....*shakes head* shiiiit"
> 
> Reminds me of my dad when I asked him if Larry Bird was overrated.


I want to bring him up in the Kobe thread later. The activity on here and posts I want to get to feels overwhelming because I'm doing 10 other things at once and rushing shit.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> @Lester1583 how do you see this exhibition between el boolsheeto and the poo man going??


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Missing Holyfield in that grouping, Bogo. Pedderrs has some inexplicable Mayweather nuthugging going on and he's getting on my fucking nerves big time because so much of it is true. I do love Floyd, I do. Just not as much as a handful of others.


:lol:

JCC is inarguably one of the most complete and well-rounded fighters of the last 50 years. I find him infinitely more entertaining and watchable than Floyd, and if there was one fighter throughout history I could bring back today it would be JCC, but objectively speaking his win column is less than sensational and listing Greg Haugen as a great win is comical. There are 10 guys, at least, on Floyd's resume that are better wins than a '93 Haugen. He was totally irrelevant by the time JCC fought him, which was basically just an exhibition of Chavez's skills in front of a record crowd at the Estadio Azteca. Haugen would be nothing more than a title holder today. Perhaps not even that.

No, if we're going to compare JCC and Floyd's resumes then it should be done properly. Bogotazo was so quick to put an asterisk next to De La Hoya and Pacquiao's names and yet didn't feel the need to do that with Greg Haugen (who shouldn't be on there in the first place) or Camacho, who was unquestionably past his best when he fought to survive against JCC at 140lbs. Rosario was a ridiculous hitter and always dangerous, but he was lucky to get the decision against Howard Davis in '84 and lost twice in his prime against Camacho and Ramirez. The latter knocking him out. Rosario was dangerous but limited. It's comparable to Floyd's win over Corrales.

The two best guys JCC fought arguably beat him. Taylor was desperately unlucky to have the fight stopped with a matter of seconds left to go. Yes, Chavez had been making his mark throughout the fight, something that had gone largely unnoticed by the commentary team, but Taylor would still have been marginally ahead on the scorecards by my reckoning if he was allowed to see out those last 2-3 seconds. I think he has a right to feel hard done by. And as for Pernell, I think the general consensus has always been that Chavez lost that one quite handily. So you have a host of very good wins against capable operators but the P4P talent Chavez faced gave him all he could handle and more.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I have to give Dan a lot of credit in this thread, he went all out and argued his points pretty passionately.


Thanks, I appreciate it.

Also @Pedderrs looking back, I realize I was kind of rude while debating with you. I didn't mean to offend, was just trying to have a serious boxing discussion.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> Thanks, I appreciate it.
> 
> Also @Pedderrs looking back, I realize I was kind of rude while debating with you. I didn't mean to offend, was just trying to have a serious boxing discussion.


No problem buddy. You're just passionate, like Hands says. I can get a bit like that myself when I'm debating for MAB.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> JCC is inarguably one of the most complete and well-rounded fighters of the last 50 years. I find him infinitely more entertaining and watchable than Floyd, and if there was one fighter throughout history I could bring back today it would be JCC, but objectively speaking his win column is less than sensational and listing Greg Haugen as a great win is comical. There are 10 guys, at least, on Floyd's resume that are better wins than a '93 Haugen. He was totally irrelevant by the time JCC fought him, which was basically just an exhibition of Chavez's skills in front of a record crowd at the Estadio Azteca. Haugen would be nothing more than a title holder today. Perhaps not even that.


Whoa, Laddie. I don't recall ever claiming Haugen to be anything more than an thoroughly dominant and enjoyable showcase of JCC's ability over a former world champion/titlist who at most was a Top 10 rated guy at 140 lbs at the time, which I'd say is the minimum for being listed on a resume with some exceptions. It was an execution, not an exhibition. When I laid out Chavez's wins earlier in the thread fairly casually I'm pretty sure Haugen was listed dead last, and would've come up something like 14th or 15th in total. Rodolfo Aguilar was probably a better W, but unfortunately I don't possess his career set and never saw the guy fight outside of JCC. Nor do I have any particular interest to. These sort of things are often settled going Top 5 for Top 5. Bogotazo's criteria stresses that single top win, but that's just a bit too limited for my tastes. Where do Buster Douglas and Hasim Rahman rate at Heavyweight in that case?



> No, if we're going to compare JCC and Floyd's resumes then it should be done properly. Bogotazo was so quick to put an asterisk next to De La Hoya and Pacquiao's names and yet didn't feel the need to do that with Greg Haugen (who shouldn't be on there in the first place) or Camacho, who was unquestionably past his best when he fought to survive against JCC at 140lbs. Rosario was a ridiculous hitter and always dangerous, but he was lucky to get the decision against Howard Davis in '84 and lost twice in his prime against Camacho and Ramirez. The latter knocking him out. Rosario was dangerous but limited. It's comparable to Floyd's win over Corrales.


Already conceded Mayweather was at an elite level for nearly *twice as long* as Chavez, which is honestly insane in retrospect. Insane considering the total number of bouts Chavez had throughout his career. Julio shouldn't feel bad about it though -- he had no amateur background to speak of, he learned his trade on the job and took nondescript fights for beer money and to keep his conditioning and skills sharp. He was a definitively Old School fighter and we'll never see the likes of his ilk again. It was not something deliberately fraudulent that he was trying to pull (nor do I think you personally believe that). Floyd quite nearly beat as many world-rated fighters in 49 fights as Willie Pep did in 241 bouts. Rosario to Corrales is a comparison I've long agreed with, in terms of respective talent, standing and how thoroughly dominated they were in signature performances for both JCC and FMJ. Castillo-Rosario would be a great fight itself as well. These are pretty even levels.



> The two best guys JCC fought arguably beat him. Taylor was desperately unlucky to have the fight stopped with a matter of seconds left to go. Yes, Chavez had been making his mark throughout the fight, something that had gone largely unnoticed by the commentary team, but Taylor would still have been marginally ahead on the scorecards by my reckoning if he was allowed to see out those last 2-3 seconds. I think he has a right to feel hard done by. And as for Pernell, I think the general consensus has always been that Chavez lost that one quite handily. So you have a host of very good wins against capable operators but the P4P talent Chavez f


Far less inclined to buy into this. I don't think luck has a whole terrible amount to do with it. As you alluded to, Meldrick Taylor took a thorough beating for the better part of 12 rounds and Chavez landed the harder punches consistently even as he dropped frames almost by default on account of MT's extraordinary work rate and blindingly fast hands. It also went unnoticed how many shots JCC was able to slip and roll throughout. He never got discouraged, never threw in the towel, didn't need a poo and continued to grind, work and beat Meldrick into a pulp to even set up and create the opportunity to finally break him. I think Taylor's lucky it wasn't scheduled for 15. There was actually five seconds left when Steele first waved it off, three when the clock was stopped in accordance. He would've eaten another monster right hand at least.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Bogotazo said:


> Probably. Floyd, Manny, Lewis, Oscar, Marquez, Morales, Barrera, Mosley, Tyson don't have a top 5 that stacked. A few might have better single wins but Whitaker's own single win is still pretty special, and the rest of his resume beats out anyone else's 2nd and 3rd best wins.


Could at Holy to that list:

Bowe II
Tyson I
MM
Foreman
Holmes

(extreme bias from me though)


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@Vysotsky JCC or PBF?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

knowimuch said:


> Could at Holy to that list:
> 
> Bowe II
> Tyson I
> ...


There's a massive omission here.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Whoa, Laddie. I don't recall ever claiming Haugen to be anything more than an thoroughly dominant and enjoyable showcase of JCC's ability over a former world champion/titlist who at most was a Top 10 rated guy at 140 lbs at the time, which I'd say is the minimum for being listed on a resume with some exceptions. It was an execution, not an exhibition. When I laid out Chavez's wins earlier in the thread fairly casually I'm pretty sure Haugen was listed dead last, and would've come up something like 14th or 15th in total. Rodolfo Aguilar was probably a better W, but unfortunately I don't possess his career set and never saw the guy fight outside of JCC. Nor do I have any particular interest to. These sort of things are often settled going Top 5 for Top 5. Bogotazo's criteria stresses that single top win, but that's just a bit too limited for my tastes. Where do Buster Douglas and Hasim Rahman rate at Heavyweight in that case?
> 
> Already conceded Mayweather was at an elite level for nearly *twice as long* as Chavez, which is honestly insane in retrospect. Insane considering the total number of bouts Chavez had throughout his career. Julio shouldn't feel bad about it though -- he had no amateur background to speak of, he learned his trade on the job and took nondescript fights for beer money and to keep his conditioning and skills sharp. He was a definitively Old School fighter and we'll never see the likes of his ilk again. It was not something deliberately fraudulent that he was trying to pull (nor do I think you personally believe that). Floyd quite nearly beat as many world-rated fighters in 49 fights as Willie Pep did in 241 bouts. Rosario to Corrales is a comparison I've long agreed with, in terms of respective talent, standing and how thoroughly dominated they were in signature performances for both JCC and FMJ. Castillo-Rosario would be a great fight itself as well. These are pretty even levels.
> 
> Far less inclined to buy into this. I don't think luck has a whole terrible amount to do with it. As you alluded to, Meldrick Taylor took a thorough beating for the better part of 12 rounds and Chavez landed the harder punches consistently even as he dropped frames almost by default on account of MT's extraordinary work rate and blindingly fast hands. It also went unnoticed how many shots JCC was able to slip and roll throughout. He never got discouraged, never threw in the towel, didn't need a poo and continued to grind, work and beat Meldrick into a pulp to even set up and create the opportunity to finally break him. I think Taylor's lucky it wasn't scheduled for 15. There was actually five seconds left when Steele first waved it off, three when the clock was stopped in accordance. He would've eaten another monster right hand at least.


I'll address this properly after work, but you should really have known that I was referencing Bogotazo's post, not yours. Interestingly, you didn't subject his post to scrutiny.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I'll address this properly after work, but you should really have known that I was referencing Bogotazo's post, not yours. Interestingly, you didn't subject his post to scrutiny.


:lol:

I did know it was addressed to him, but I felt like running with it anyway and throwing like paragraphs down since it quoted a post of mine. Bogotazo is just trying to help.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> I did know it was addressed to him, but I felt like running with it anyway and throwing like paragraphs down since it quoted a post of mine. Bogotazo is just trying to help.


Your argument that Taylor would have sustained more punishment is quite amusing though Hands. Julio is lucky to have you in the same way Tito is lucky to have Dirty Dan.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Your argument that Taylor would have sustained more punishment is quite amusing though Hands. Julio is *lucky* to have you in the same way Tito is *lucky* to have Dirty Dan.


That word again. My argument is that it was a legit stoppage and Chavez had earned it. I only addressed the matter of further punishment in the last sentence with the time correction.


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

turbotime said:


> Pacquiao and Mayweather have even up resumes. Not to mention Mayweather spanked him when they finally met, and would have at any weight class. Funny when the fight was being signed in 2009 pretty much everyone was saying floyd would win. Floyd went largely untouched in his career lets not forget when Manny has been sparked clean out and outboxed a few times.


No they don't. Give me all those comparable wins FMJ has over a prime (or near prime) Morales, Marquez or Barrera? 2015 Pac after it was signed in 2009 LMAO 2009 Pac was a better fighter, he was sharper & still had that killer instinct & fire! Would he have beaten Floyd. Dunno..

2-2 over Marquez (IMO) officially it is 2-1-1
2-1 Morales
2-0 Barrera
3-0 with Bradley (IMO) Though officially it is 2-1

9 wins there over those 4 great fighters!

He even beat a better Cotto! WW version 2009.. In Pac's pomp he was fighting everyone!

I don't care if he's lost in his career or if Floyd beat him at WW in 2015. I'm talking about overall resume depth.

A singular win over Corrales & probably going 1-1 with Castillo is even is it?! Alvarez oh ya I forgot the catch-weight kid LOL Who was Floyd fighting in his prime? Sorry but you seem unable to understand overall resume depth! Lewis beat Holyfield though I consider Evander a great p4p fighter than LL & maybe even a greater overall (historically speaking) HW than him. Hopkins lost to Calzaghe, Duran lost to Hagler so what?!

They don't have even resumes. You are taking this as a slight against Floyd, it isn't!


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## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> What?! Just a couple of those wins would be an entire career for some.. All combined make an excellent set of wins. Larios is a former WBC Super Bantamweight and Featherweight champion. Beat Wayne McCullough twice & Israel Vazquez. It's a noteworthy scalp. MP has the deepest resume of anyone in years! This is just fact. Considering his size & his lack of amateur pedigree he is a boxing marvel! He also ducked no one, fought all styles & emerged as the best overall of the fab four of the 00's! He had fighters to define himself against just like the fab four from the 80's! Losing to Floyd when both were over the hill (probably more so Manny due to his fighting style) makes no difference for me. Hopkins lost to Calzaghe & Duran lost to Hagler but I still rate both Hopkins & Duran higher historically & p4p than either of those two. If you don't agree fine but these lists are subjective & personal to each individual & truth be told there isn't a definitive, set in stone, top 25 list of fighters! I mean this specific list.. No Tyson! Even Dariusz Michalkzewski has a shout at it! No mention of either..


Good post me LOL


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Floyd has the better singular win (Over MP in 2015) but overall no. It's MP who has the best resume.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> No they don't. Give me all those comparable wins FMJ has over a prime (or near prime) Morales, Marquez or Barrera? 2015 Pac after it was signed in 2009 LMAO 2009 Pac was a better fighter, he was sharper & still had that killer instinct & fire! *Would he have beaten Floyd. Dunno..*
> 
> 2-2 over Marquez (IMO) officially it is 2-1-1
> 2-1 Morales
> ...


No, he wouldn't. 40 year old Floyd had Pac walking around looking like he lost one of his lost illegitimate children.

Did you honestly just make fun of Canelo's catchweight fight and list Pac's stuff over Cotto and Margarito to prove resume depth..... Oh the irony.


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

turbotime said:


> No, he wouldn't. 40 year old Floyd had Pac walking around looking like he lost one of his lost illegitimate children.
> 
> Did you honestly just make fun of Canelo's catchweight fight and list Pac's stuff over Cotto and Margarito to prove resume depth..... Oh the irony.


Is that your response?! Pathetic.. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder! 40? They are like 1 year apart! Ok two.. Pac will be 38 whilst Floyd is still 39 still though. That's an irrelevance really tho! Look I am not saying Floyd isn't the better boxer I am saying Pac is the greater fighter. Big difference. You are suggesting they are even resume wise! This is clearly not the case:

Pac:

2-2 JMM (IMO)
2-1 Morales
2-0 Barrera
3-0 Bradley (IMO)

FMJ:

1-1 Castillo (IMO)
Corrales
Hatton
Canelo

etc

I am sorry but Bradley>>Canelo all day long (let alone winning all 3 fights with him!) Witter, Vasquez, Peterson, Alexander, Holt, Casamayor, Provodnikov, JMM (Old version but still) Rios, Vargas, Chavez.

Cotto Pac beat>Cotto FMJ beat.

I'll give Floyd beating a better Hatton but ODH was pretty shot in both fights. Mosley too.

Citing there WW fight whilst both on the wrong side of 35 isn't doing you any favours either. By that logic you would have to concede Calzaghe being a greater fighter than Hopkins or Hagler over Duran or LL over Evander! I consider none of them to be greater than the guy they beat..

I note you failed to answer my question too. Give me all those comparable wins FMJ has over a prime (or near prime) Morales, Marquez or Barrera?

This isn't dumbing down Floyd. He's a great fighter but resume wise you are onto a loser here son!


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> That word again. My argument is that it was a legit stoppage and Chavez had earned it. I only addressed the matter of further punishment in the last sentence with the time correction.


not a legit stoppage.

If the fight went on Chavez would have darted across the ring, maybe land a right and and then the fight would have gone the distance.

Taylor would have been the victor on points if RIchard Steele didn't fuck it up.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> Is that your response?! Pathetic.. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder! 40? They are like 1 year apart! Ok two.. Pac will be 38 whilst Floyd is still 39 still though. That's an irrelevance really tho! Look I am not saying Floyd isn't the better boxer I am saying Pac is the greater fighter. Big difference. You are suggesting they are even resume wise! This is clearly not the case:
> 
> Pac:
> 
> ...


Lots of revisionist history here. Not to mention Mayweather dominated Marquez who later went on to knock Manny the hell out. Mayweather was also a two weight champ at the same time while barely losing rounds.

Here is Mayweather against top 10 opposition.

1998: Genaro Hernandez (World SFW Champion)
1998: Angel Manfredy (No. 2 SFW)
1999: Carlos Gerena (No. 9 SFW)
2000: Goyo Vargas (No. 10 SFW)
2001: Diego Corrales (No. 1 SFW)
2001: Jesus Chavez (No. 4 SFW)
2002: Jose Luis Castillo (No. 1 LW, WBC claimant) [New lineage]
2002: Jose Luis Castillo (No. 1 LW)
2003: Philip N'Dou (No. 4 SFW) (@135)
2004: DeMarcus Corley (No. 5 LWW)
2005: Arturo Gatti (No. 1 LWW, WBC claimant)
2006: Zab Judah (No. 3 WW)
2006: Carlos Baldomir (World WW Champion)
2007: Oscar De La Hoya (No. 5 LMW, WBC claimant)
2007: Ricky Hatton (World LWW Champion) (@147)
2009: Juan M. Marquez (World LW Champion) (@147)
2010: Shane Molsey (No. 2 WW, WBA claimant)
2011: Victor Ortiz (No. 2 WW, WBC claimant)
2012: Miguel Cotto (No. 1 LMW, WBA claimant)
2013: Robert Guerrero (No. 3 WW)
2013: Canelo Alvarez (World LMW Champion)
2014: Marcos Maidana (WBA champion) 2X
2015: Manny Pacquiao (#2 welter, P4P #5)

Overall record: 49-0
Record vs. Top 10 Opponents/Champions: 23-0, Olympian, etc.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Whoa, Laddie. I don't recall ever claiming Haugen to be anything more than an thoroughly dominant and enjoyable showcase of JCC's ability over a former world champion/titlist who at most was a Top 10 rated guy at 140 lbs at the time, which I'd say is the minimum for being listed on a resume with some exceptions. It was an execution, not an exhibition. When I laid out Chavez's wins earlier in the thread fairly casually I'm pretty sure Haugen was listed dead last, and would've come up something like 14th or 15th in total. Rodolfo Aguilar was probably a better W, but unfortunately I don't possess his career set and never saw the guy fight outside of JCC. Nor do I have any particular interest to. These sort of things are often settled going Top 5 for Top 5. Bogotazo's criteria stresses that single top win, but that's just a bit too limited for my tastes. Where do Buster Douglas and Hasim Rahman rate at Heavyweight in that case?


This is an insanely long-winded way of agreeing with me.



> Already conceded Mayweather was at an elite level for nearly *twice as long* as Chavez, which is honestly insane in retrospect. Insane considering the total number of bouts Chavez had throughout his career. Julio shouldn't feel bad about it though -- he had no amateur background to speak of, he learned his trade on the job and took nondescript fights for beer money and to keep his conditioning and skills sharp. He was a definitively Old School fighter and we'll never see the likes of his ilk again. It was not something deliberately fraudulent that he was trying to pull (nor do I think you personally believe that). Floyd quite nearly beat as many world-rated fighters in 49 fights as Willie Pep did in 241 bouts. Rosario to Corrales is a comparison I've long agreed with, in terms of respective talent, standing and how thoroughly dominated they were in signature performances for both JCC and FMJ. Castillo-Rosario would be a great fight itself as well. These are pretty even levels.


I suppose it was kind of fraudulent in that Chavez and Don King were most likely still making a fortune fighting cab drivers that Greg Haugen's grandmother could have knocked out, but I personally don't have any problem with it seeing as how frequently JCC was fighting a year comparatively to his contemporaries. It's also essential to note that Chavez never consciously avoided any fighter. There were talks of a potential fight with Terry Norris happening during the 90s. It's probably a good thing that that never materialised.



> Far less inclined to buy into this. I don't think luck has a whole terrible amount to do with it. As you alluded to, Meldrick Taylor took a thorough beating for the better part of 12 rounds and Chavez landed the harder punches consistently even as he dropped frames almost by default on account of MT's extraordinary work rate and blindingly fast hands. It also went unnoticed how many shots JCC was able to slip and roll throughout. He never got discouraged, never threw in the towel, didn't need a poo and continued to grind, work and beat Meldrick into a pulp to even set up and create the opportunity to finally break him. I think Taylor's lucky it wasn't scheduled for 15. There was actually five seconds left when Steele first waved it off, three when the clock was stopped in accordance. He would've eaten another monster right hand at least.


Taylor was sustaining damage and eating hard shots throughout the contest, that much was evident from the condition of his face, but Chavez was consistently being out-landed and was losing the majority of the rounds. To say "Meldrick Taylor took a thorough beating for the better part of 12 rounds" would be greatly over-exaggerating what actually transpired. The only time during the whole contest Taylor ever looked in trouble was the sequence that resulted in the knockdown. I don't believe world title fights should be stopped after a single solitary knockdown unless one of the fighters is clearly in no condition to continue. Taylor was back up on his own two feet by the count 6. And yes -- there may have been five seconds left at the point of Steele waving the fight off -- but had he allowed it to continue, then a few more seconds would have gone by before Steele could continue the fight and remove himself from the action, especially when you consider Chavez wasn't even standing in a neutral corner. I simply don't buy into the notion that Taylor could have sustained more punishment or that Chavez could have closed the show. There was not enough time.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Not a fan of the stoppage either.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Not a fan of the stoppage either.


I don't think anybody wants to see a professional fighter get seriously hurt. But Boxing kind of involves people getting punched in the face and occasionally knocked down. That's to be expected. A championship fight should not be stopped on one knockdown when the fighter in question is back to his feet by the count of six. The time in which all of this transpired is largely irrelevant, Taylor deserved the benefit of the doubt in a championship fight he had largely spent dominating. Richard Steele made a mistake and I think he probably knows it.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I don't think anybody wants to see a professional fighter get seriously hurt. But Boxing kind of involves people getting punched in the face and occasionally knocked down. That's to be expected. A championship fight should not be stopped on one knockdown when the fighter in question is back to his feet by the count of six. The time in which all of this transpired is largely irrelevant, Taylor deserved the benefit of the doubt in a championship fight he had largely spent dominating. Richard Steele made a mistake and I think he probably knows it.


Especially of a fight of that magnitude.2 P4P guys smack in their prime.

Steele was boo'd on the reg after that debacle. Says a lot there. Has a ref ever been boo'd before? :lol:


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Especially of a fight of that magnitude.2 P4P guys smack in their prime.
> 
> Steele was boo'd on the reg after that debacle. Says a lot there. Has a ref ever been boo'd before? :lol:


Hands is a knowledgeable guy but his love for JCC consumes him here. I think I once read one of his posts that insinuated Randall's knockdown of JCC was a rabbit punch.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I think I once read one of his posts that insinuated Randall's knockdown of JCC was a rabbit punch.


:lol: :lol:


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Hands is a knowledgeable guy but his love for JCC consumes him here. I think I once read one of his posts that insinuated Randall's knockdown of JCC was a rabbit punch.


@Hands of Iron this true


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> When Giants collide:


Ortiz is what Chavez suppose to be.

An inhumanly strong complete beast with a resume stacked beyond belief.

Not a referee-reliant media creation that feasted on past-prime bangers.

Who's main claim to fame is "consistency".

No wonder Floyd's his biggest rival.



Hands of Iron said:


> @Vysotsky JCC or PBF?


The question is the answer.

And the answer is Floyd's Whitaker spiritual bitch.

For eternity.

Fat fucks should only be allowed to rate donuts.



turbotime said:


> @Hands of Iron this true


Dude's brain went offline.

He'll be back stronger than ever.

Just give him some time and dianabol.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester is my favourite contrarian. No wait, that's Flea.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

If I recall in an interview, Taylor said he didn't even remember hearing Steele ask him if he was OK. Not too mention him not answering Steele if he's OK. And I I wouldn't say Taylor was dominating. Was he winning? Sure, he was out landing Julio for sure, but he was also receiving hard shots through out the fight, and slowly being worn down.

But hey what do I know? Chavez is my favorite fighter of all time, so I'm probably biased here.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> If I recall in an interview, Taylor said he didn't even remember hearing Steele ask him if he was OK. Not too mention him not answering Steele if he's OK
> 
> But hey what do I know? Chavez is my favorite fighter of all time, so I'm probably biased here.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

:rofl @Pedderrs

Didn't even let me finish my edit.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

6.57.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Lester is my favourite contrarian. No wait, that's Flea.


Fleabozoid is my failed clone:


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Fleabozoid is my failed clone:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> This is an insanely long-winded way of agreeing with me.


Well, you quoted a post of mine with an insanely long-winded scolding about how '93 Greg fucking Haugen wasn't a signature win for Julio as if I was somehow oblivious to this. Under what circumstances am I not supposed to be offended by that, the fact that it was in response to someone else's post and not any of mine? :rofl :yep Not everyone taking a gander at this thread - and there have been a lot from what I've observed - may be aware of that.



Pedderrs said:


> Hands is a knowledgeable guy but his love for JCC consumes him here. I think I once read one of his posts that insinuated Randall's knockdown of JCC was a rabbit punch.





turbotime said:


> @Hands of Iron this true


How? There's at least two clear examples where it should've been overwhelmingly evident. And what sort of JCC nuthugger would concede the things I've said in this thread as it pertains to Mayweather's ATG standing in comparison to Chavez? Or post obscure articles from the early 1990s showing he clearly sidestepped Pineda for whatever reason and vacated the IBF strap which Whitaker promptly picked up. I've spent nearly as much time talking Pea in here as Chavez. I hadn't spoken of the man since last Spring and only started up again when @Pedderrs came back because I *thought* he might be interested in discussing him but I come to find he sold out Chavez, his people and his soul for the BBC. Maybe not considering that undie selfie that came out a year or so ago.



Hands of Iron said:


> If there's a weight I feel he can win, it's 135 despite his incredibly short stint in the division (most notably his bouts with Edwin Rosario and Jose Luis Ramirez). He had a lot of quality wins at SFW, but cut a bit too rail-thin figure for my taste here in a 'fantasy fight' with Mayweather, I'm just not that confident he'd inflict the damage necessary to win but he filled out perfectly as a lightweight and was optimal both physically and skill-wise. 140 is even money IMO, and Floyd wins rather easily at anything above that.
> 
> Chavez was far too fundamentally sound to ever come out guns blazing, walking straight in and leaving himself open to a barrage of clean counters. His "relentless pressure" was more to do with his presence, technical ability to close distance and cut the ring with his offensive footwork. Textbook reactive to an opponents movement once he got within an arm's length-- a lot of mirroring, side stepping, hooking off escape routes, making an early investment to attack the body. He was selective with his shots, but he isn't going to let many opportunities go to waste: Once he's in range, the combinations are going to fly without a moments notice and they are hard, short and unpredictable. If he controls the geography of the fight, up's and keeps his work rate steady, he's got a great shot.
> 
> ...





Hands of Iron said:


> Oscar's size, dimensions and jab always make for a difficult proposition and close off certain avenues in which Chavez was ordinarily capable of winning fights against other world level opponents. He certainly wouldn't outbox him, nor would he be able to win convincingly fighting at mid-range standing in Oscar's kill zone where he's getting full extension on his shots. That was a real sight to behold tbh, Chavez was a guy who in his prime nary had so much as minor swelling on his face. His head would need to stay buried in Oscar's chest where thunderous hooks to the body, flush uppercuts and short right hands would be exploding on him in combination. I think he possessed the offensive footwork at his best to dictate the terms though, and it's made a bit easier especially if DLH is fighting as emotionally as he was in their actual fights.
> 
> It could've been highly competitive even in 1996 as Julio trained particularly hard and worked himself into much better condition than what had recently been seen. It was a disastrous mistake to go into the fight with a cut that wasn't more than a week old. DLH busted it open within the first minute on an innocuous jab. Julio hardly came forward at all for the duration, he couldn't see, he was being thoroughly outboxed and by the fourth round was taking some hellacious shots before the ringside doctor stoppage. He just looked like a shopworn old man in the 1998 rematch at 147, comprehensively outsized and outgunned, coming in three pounds under the limit at the weigh-in and going toe-to-toe with an Oscar that was closer to 165 on the night.


Outrageous Bias. :lol: By all means, tell me how it really is because I don't feel it's being unreasonable.



Lester1583 said:


> Ortiz is what Chavez suppose to be. An inhumanly strong complete beast with a resume stacked beyond belief.


If @DirtyDan traded Tito up for Ortiz as his fave Pecan, he'd be unstoppable and destroy everyone in this thread. The man was big. He was strong. He could box. He could punch. He could Puerto Rican. That's the extent of what I learned about him reading ESB Classic. No wonder Bogo has holes. It isn't my job to wax about fighters I don't care about, Flashy Lorde.



Lester1583 said:


> Main claim to fame is "consistency".


His main claim to fame is being the GMOAT and carrying threads that would've died at less than five pages talking about MAB to 20+. Being the archetype of an elite pressure fighter, a virtual consensus lock for Top 5 ATG in-fighter and body puncher, Top 10 worthy shout as a combination puncher are just little extras.



Zopilote said:


> If I recall in an interview, Taylor said he didn't even remember hearing Steele ask him if he was OK. Not too mention him not answering Steele if he's OK. And I I wouldn't say Taylor was dominating. Was he winning? Sure, he was out landing Julio for sure, but he was also receiving hard shots through out the fight, and slowly being worn down.


It's times like these you find out who your real friends are. The damage done to Taylor all happened in the last two rounds. Accumulation had nothing to do with it.



Zopilote said:


> But hey, what do I know?


Clearly more than anyone else that's contributed to this thread.



Pedderrs said:


> Lester is my favourite contrarian. No wait, that's Flea.


You'd be the wiser to listen to him more often.



Flea Man said:


> Taylor got stopped. Deal with it.


Or any number of other highly respected posters:



SJS20 said:


> Fair stoppage.





Chatty said:


> Completely just stoppage. Meldrick was done, doesn't matter what time was on the clock. if he was in the same position in the first round no one would have complained.





Bogotazo said:


> He was leaning against the ropes and didn't respond twice to the question of "are you alright"? Standard refereeing imo.





JamieC said:


> The ref is not a timekeeper, end of. Good stoppage.





Felix said:


> Fair Enough.


----------



## nuclear (Jun 15, 2015)

anyone else find the FMJ win over JMM to be a bit tainted? he fucked him over with the weight. changing it on fight week then coming in over weight anyway


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well, you quoted a post of mine with an insanely long-winded scolding about how '93 Greg fucking Haugen wasn't a signature win for Julio as if I was somehow oblivious to this. Under what circumstances am I not supposed to be offended by that, the fact that it was in response to someone else's post and not any of mine? :rofl :yep Not everyone taking a gander at this thread - and there have been a lot from what I've observed - may be aware of that.


You didn't call him out on his bullshit, so I figured you were every bit as oblivious as he was.



> You'd be the wiser to listen to him more often.


Not at all. I'm entitled to my opinion just as anyone else is, and just because Flea spent most of his days reading secondary sources and studying Thai fighters doesn't make his opinion on the Chavez-Taylor debacle any more compelling or true than mine. I don't put other posters on a pedestal. If you disagree with my contentions about the stoppage, then disagree and explain your reasoning, but don't quote a nothing comment from Flea as if it is the last word on the matter because the sad cunt spent his weekends reading about Flyweights. :lol:

And Chatty is way off point in suggesting that had the stoppage came in the first round nobody would have complained. Are you kidding? Taylor was on his feet at the count of six. Stopping a world title fight between two P4P talents after a single solitary knockdown in the first round? I'm sorry, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. This wasn't the only time Steele could be accused of favouring JCC either.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)




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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


>


Text book stoppage at the worstc moment


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> You didn't call him out on his bullshit, so I figured you were every bit as oblivious as he was.
> 
> Not at all. I'm entitled to my opinion just as anyone else is, and just because Flea spent most of his days reading secondary sources and studying Thai fighters doesn't make his opinion on the Chavez-Taylor debacle any more compelling or true than mine. I don't put other posters on a pedestal. If you disagree with my contentions about the stoppage, then disagree and explain your reasoning, but don't quote a nothing comment from Flea as if it is the last word on the matter because the sad cunt spent his weekends reading about Flyweights. :lol:
> 
> And Chatty is way off point in suggesting that had the stoppage came in the first round nobody would have complained. Are you kidding? Taylor was on his feet at the count of six. Stopping a world title fight between two P4P talents after a single solitary knockdown in the first round? I'm sorry, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. This wasn't the only time Steele could be accused of favouring JCC either.


More than a tinge of sarcasm there -- And Yes, because I need Flea (or anyone else) to school me on Julio Cesar Chavez, don't I? Like Fuck. The point of quoting those posters was to show that there are plenty who agree with the viewpoint that the stoppage was legit as opposed to your own, turbo's and tommy's and that it wasn't merely a case of my being "consumed by JCC love" when you guys were piling on. Why would you listen to me when I'm just a crazed nuthugger? I'd hardly so much as mentioned him on here in more than a mere sentence for 10 months. And I did argue it, you ran with a single bit that I admit may of been stretching things in terms of sustaining further damage, we won't know. As far as him not taking a thorough beating:

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-19/sports/sp-491_1_taylor-proved-meldrick

_*There was a "blowout fracture" of the orbital bones surrounding the left eye, a lacerated lip that caused him to lose and swallow two pints of blood, bleeding in his kidneys and dehydration. Taylor was placed on a stretcher and taken to the hospital by ambulance. He was given fluids and blood transfusions at the hospital, and took a CAT-scan to check for brain damage. The state boxing commission suspended him for 90 days for medical reasons.*

And yet, Taylor, the Duvas and Finkel continued to insist that a terrible injustice had been done. Taylor had fought a masterful fight for 11 rounds and had even outslugged Chavez for much of the 10th. But he also was tiring badly late in the fight, and the vision in his left eye was diminishing with each round. When asked afterward to recount the final seconds of the bout, Taylor said, "(Steele) didn't say anything to me. He didn't ask, 'Are you OK,' count, or give me no kind of directions. I nodded my head, 'I'm OK, I'm OK.' And he still stopped it."

But repeated viewings of the videotape--which Taylor had not seen--reveal that Steele did indeed count and ask Taylor if he was OK. And Taylor did not respond, either verbally or with gestures, until after Steele waved the bout off_

What the hell else do you call that?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Dude's brain went offline.
> 
> He'll be back stronger than ever.
> 
> Just give him some time and dianabol.


I don't like BOOOLSHEEEET!


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


>


Might as well been in britain.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> His main claim to fame is being the GMOAT


Saint Chava forgives you.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Might as well been in britain.


You... That PBF Top 10 list was my creation too!


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You... That PBF Top 10 list was my creation too!


Dude I was gonna mention you but i got lazy :lol:


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> - This is how you do it, Bulsheetito:


Can you imagine someone as great as Laguna on Chavez's resume?

Yup, neither can I.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Dude I was gonna mention you but i got lazy :lol:


I don't think it's the sort of thing that warrants any sort of authorship credit, and of course I'm joking. :lol: It did take a little bit of digging for some of those though. I wanted it at the literal time, not that annual shit.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Saint Chava forgives you.


Sr Zurdo de Oro would like a word with you.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Sr Zurdo de Oro would like a word with you.


So now you're rating Saldivar over Olivares? Make up your god damn mind already. Already knew you had both over Sanchez.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

I


Hands of Iron said:


> So now you're rating Saldivar over Olivares? Make up your god damn mind already. Already knew you had both over Sanchez.


Its interchangeable, I've always said that :ibutt


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

nuclear said:


> anyone else find the FMJ win over JMM to be a bit tainted? he fucked him over with the weight. changing it on fight week then coming in over weight anyway


He didn't really use his size that much though


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> He didn't really use his size that much though


Marquez wanted none of the rematch either.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> I...
> 
> Its interchangeable, I've always said that :ibutt


Little Red was the #4 pound for pound fighter in the world at the time Chava beat him according to KO Magazine polls at the time. I've always found his defensive capabilities fucking extraordinary.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

@Hands of Iron I know you're not much into the sport nowadays, but what are your opinions on Roman Gonzalez and Juan Francisco Estrada??

@Pedderrs I'd like to know your opinion on them as well


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> More than a tinge of sarcasm there -- And Yes, because I need Flea (or anyone else) to school me on Julio Cesar Chavez, don't I? Like Fuck. The point of quoting those posters was to show that there are plenty who agree with the viewpoint that the stoppage was legit as opposed to your own, turbo's and tommy's and that it wasn't merely a case of my being "consumed by JCC love" when you guys were piling on. Why would you listen to me when I'm just a crazed nuthugger? I'd hardly so much as mentioned him on here in more than a mere sentence for 10 months. And I did argue it, you ran with a single bit that I admit may of been stretching things in terms of sustaining further damage, we won't know.


I also lied and said you had insinuated that Frankie Randall's knockdown of Julio Cesar Chavez was a rabbit punch in the same post, so how you've failed to grasp the tone of all of it is somewhat inexplicable. My tongue was firmly in cheek, Hands of Iron. With that being said, quoting Chinny's assertion that nobody would have complained if the controversy had taken place in the first round does not help strengthen your position even a bit. That actually contradicts the very basis for why you are defending the stoppage, which is that Taylor had sustained a systematic and prolonged beating over 12 hard rounds. Flea is a knowledgeable fan and a great poster too, but if you're going to quote him then be sure it's insightful. Quoting something as empty as "Chavez was stopped, get over it" would imply that you believe Flea is beyond reproach. He is not beyond reproach. No poster is beyond reproach. I honestly think you would be better served to just articulate your own thoughts and feelings rather than run around quoting posters who you consider to be all-time greats. This is something I've seen you do on a multiple occasions. You are more than capable of putting fourth strong arguments all by yourself.



> http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-19/sports/sp-491_1_taylor-proved-meldrick
> 
> _*There was a "blowout fracture" of the orbital bones surrounding the left eye, a lacerated lip that caused him to lose and swallow two pints of blood, bleeding in his kidneys and dehydration. Taylor was placed on a stretcher and taken to the hospital by ambulance. He was given fluids and blood transfusions at the hospital, and took a CAT-scan to check for brain damage. The state boxing commission suspended him for 90 days for medical reasons.*
> 
> ...


I don't want to get into a battle of semantics here but the word for word definition of "beating" is to be hit repeatedly, so on that basis you could also say that Julio Cesar Chavez was the victim of a beating too considering he was outlanded in virtually every single round. And I think that's the overriding point -- Taylor had performed so well and without incident for so much of the fight that I truly feel it was an injustice not to give him the benefit of the doubt after the knockdown. He rose to his feet quick enough, remained upright and the only reason he wasn't making eye contact with Steele was because he was being motioned to by his corner men. If anything, the fact he was able to identify the men who was working his corner was proof enough that he was aware of his surroundings. To stop that fight with mere seconds left was an injustice and the wrong call, and I will allow other people to express their own thoughts on the matter, but until some new hard evidence comes to light then I remain unmoved. And yes, your point that Taylor could have sustained more damage is reaching of the highest order. But you know that.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I also lied and said you had insinuated that Frankie Randall's knockdown of Julio Cesar Chavez was a rabbit punch in the same post, so how you've failed to grasp the tone of all of it is somewhat inexplicable. My tongue was firmly in cheek, Hands of Iron. With that being said, quoting Chinny's assertion that nobody would have complained if the controversy had taken place in the first round does not help strengthen your position even a bit. That actually contradicts the very basis for why you are defending the stoppage, which is that Taylor had sustained a systematic and prolonged beating over 12 hard rounds. Flea is a knowledgeable fan and a great poster too, but if you're going to quote him then be sure it's insightful. Quoting something as empty as "Chavez was stopped, get over it" would imply that you believe Flea is beyond reproach. He is not beyond reproach. No poster is beyond reproach. I honestly think you would be better served to just articulate your own thoughts and feelings rather than run around quoting posters who you consider to be all-time greats. This is something I've seen you do on a multiple occasions. You are more than capable of putting fourth strong arguments all by yourself.
> 
> I don't want to get into a battle of semantics here but the word for word definition of "beating" is to be hit repeatedly, so on that basis you could also say that Julio Cesar Chavez was the victim of a beating too considering he was outlanded in virtually every single round. And I think that's the overriding point -- Taylor had performed so well and without incident for so much of the fight that I truly feel it was an injustice not to give him the benefit of the doubt after the knockdown. He rose to his feet quick enough, remained upright and the only reason he wasn't making eye contact with Steele was because he was being motioned to by his corner men. If anything, the fact he was able to identify the men who was working his corner was proof enough that he was aware of his surroundings. To stop that fight with mere seconds left was an injustice and the wrong call, and I will allow other people to express their own thoughts on the matter, but until some new hard evidence comes to light then I remain unmoved. And yes, your point that Taylor could have sustained more damage is reaching of the highest order. But you know that.


Chavez was being outlanded, but was nowhere near in the bad condition that Taylor was. Taylor was taking very hard shots especially in those last rounds. He got rocked pretty good earlier in the 12th if I recall, he was stumbling down at one point. And no one had a better view on all that than Steele himself. Taylor then was asked twice if he was OK, a very crucial time to answer especially after the ref has been watching you up close take some hellacious shots.

@MichiganWarrior nailed it with saying that bit was a textbook stoppage but at a very unfortunate time. But time is irrelevant here, as Steele had no control of that.

I don't expect to change your mind, but that's my take on it and why I think it was a legit stoppage. If that makes me a nuthugger to you or anyone else, then so be it.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Chavez was being outlanded, but was nowhere near in the bad condition that Taylor was. Taylor was taking very hard shots especially in those last rounds. He got rocked pretty good earlier in the 12th if I recall, he was stumbling down at one point. And no one had a better view on all that than Steele himself. Taylor then was asked twice if he was OK, a very crucial time to answer especially after the ref has been watching you up close take some hellacious shots.
> 
> @MichiganWarrior nailed it with saying that bit was a textbook stoppage but at a very unfortunate time. But time is irrelevant here, as Steele had no control of that.
> 
> I don't expect to change your mind, but that's my take on it and why I think it was a legit stoppage. If that makes me a nuthugger to you or anyone else, then so be it.


I wouldn't resort to calling you a nuthugger because we disagree, Zopilote. I thought @Hands of Iron would have known not to take a comment like "Hands is consumed by his love for JCC" as nothing more than playful banter, but apparently my hiatus was longer than I thought.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Its


Pedderrs said:


> I wouldn't resort to calling you a nuthugger because we disagree, Zopilote. I thought @Hands of Iron would have known not to take a comment like "Hands is consumed by his love for JCC" as nothing more than playful banter, but apparently my hiatus was longer than I thought.


Its all good my friend


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> @Hands of Iron I know you're not much into the sport nowadays, but what are your opinions on Roman Gonzalez and Juan Francisco Estrada??
> 
> @Pedderrs I'd like to know your opinion on them as well


That's an understatement of the highest order, dude. I practically stopped watching completely once my Dad was diagnosed with cancer early last year and subsequently croaked. I can't tell you the amount of shit and turmoil I've been through over the last 15 months with a variety of other things beyond that. If I can't wax lyrical, I'd rather not at all. Give me a few days, I have Penalosa to watch first.



Pedderrs said:


> I also lied and said you had insinuated that Frankie Randall's knockdown of Julio Cesar Chavez was a rabbit punch in the same post, so how you've failed to grasp the tone of all of it is somewhat inexplicable. My tongue was firmly in cheek, Hands of Iron. With that being said, quoting Chatty's assertion that nobody would have complained if the controversy had taken place in the first round does not help strengthen your position even a bit. That actually contradicts the very basis for why you are defending the stoppage, which is that Taylor had sustained a systematic and prolonged beating over 12 hard rounds. Flea is a knowledgeable fan and a great poster too, but if you're going to quote him then be sure it's insightful. Quoting something as empty as "Chavez was stopped, get over it" would imply that you believe Flea is beyond reproach. He is not beyond reproach. No poster is beyond reproach. I honestly think you would be better served to just articulate your own thoughts and feelings rather than run around quoting posters who you consider to be all-time greats. This is something I've seen you do on a multiple occasions. You are more than capable of putting fourth strong arguments all by yourself.


I think you're grossly overstating the purpose of the quotes -- and what I do is Mention specific posters for opinions in various topics that I'm interested in hearing their takes on. I get far more mentions myself for the exact same thing. You'll see this happen repeatedly, all across the forum. I don't use quotes from other people to make my arguments. Particularly not for a topic as close to vest as this (Chavez). I've never seen a single post from any of the quoted aside from maybe Zopilote that's made more thorough or descriptive posts than I can myself anyway. Flea included.



> I don't want to get into a battle of semantics here but the word for word definition of "beating" is to be hit repeatedly, so on that basis you could also say that Julio Cesar Chavez was the victim of a beating too considering he was outlanded in virtually every single round. And I think that's the overriding point -- Taylor had performed so well and without incident for so much of the fight that I truly feel it was an injustice not to give him the benefit of the doubt after the knockdown. He rose to his feet quick enough, remained upright and the only reason he wasn't making eye contact with Steele was because he was being motioned to by his corner men. If anything, the fact he was able to identify the men who was working his corner was proof enough that he was aware of his surroundings. To stop that fight with mere seconds left was an injustice and the wrong call, and I will allow other people to express their own thoughts on the matter, but until some new hard evidence comes to light then I remain unmoved. And yes, your point that Taylor could have sustained more damage is reaching of the highest order. But you know that.


OK, Addie. Fair Enough. I honestly see no point in continuing this beyond what's already been said. This is politics/religion at this point.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's an understatement of the highest order, dude. I practically stopped watching completely once my Dad was diagnosed with cancer early last year and subsequently croaked. I can't tell you the amount of shit and turmoil I've been through over the last 15 months with a variety of other things beyond that. If I can't wax lyrical, I'd rather not at all. Give me a few days, I have Penalosa to watch first.
> 
> I think you're grossly overstating the purpose of the quotes -- and what I do is Mention specific posters for opinions in various topics that I'm interested in hearing their takes on. I get far more mentions myself for the exact same thing. You'll see this happen repeatedly, all across the forum. I don't use quotes from other people to make my arguments. Particularly not for a topic as close to vest as this (Chavez). I've never seen a single post from any of the quoted aside from maybe Zopilote that's made more thorough or descriptive posts than I can myself anyway. Flea included.
> 
> OK, Addie. Fair Enough. I honestly see no point in continuing this beyond what's already been said. This is politics/religion at this point.


Fair enough. I didn't think you would take my post saying you are consumed by your love for JCC Seriously. I actually thought you would find the Randall thing amusing.

The irony in all of this is that I'm happy JCC won.

And let me know when you watch that Penalosa fight I sent you. I want one of your patented essays. I think he was a stunning operator. Stunning.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's an understatement of the highest order, dude. I practically stopped watching completely once my Dad was diagnosed with cancer early last year and subsequently croaked. I can't tell you the amount of shit and turmoil I've been through over the last 15 months with a variety of other things beyond that. If I can't wax lyrical, I'd rather not at all. Give me a few days, I have Penalosa to watch first.


Sorry to hear about that, man.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

@Pedderrs

Roman Gonzalez and Juan Francisco Estrada.

Your opinion on them??


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> @Pedderrs
> 
> Roman Gonzalez and Juan Francisco Estrada.
> 
> Your opinion on them??


I'm in the same boat as Hands of Iron, buddy. I've only just really made a return to current boxing. I have seen Gonzalez fight on a number of occasions however and he's very fluid. A beautifully smooth composite puncher that I think hangs with any 105-112lbs fighter ever.


----------



## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

The referee should have been aware that Meldrick's corner distracted him by jumping on the ropes, he looked away to see what was going on and that played a big part in him failing to respond.

I think the best possible decision in that time is to quickly scatter away the corner, step Meldrick forward and then ask him clearly, if he doesn't respond instantly, its over. It's not fair to punish Meldrick because his corner jumped on to the ropes, that's not in his control.

In that situation, you have to give the fighter the benefit of the doubt and be absolutely sure he is unable to continue, the Referee got distracted himself it seems.

The referee might not be a timekeeper, but it is his job to stop people interfering in the fight.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Sorry to hear about that, man.


Yeah, boxing in particular was something I was completely turned off by immediately afterwards because of the role it played in how I jived with him. It's getting better though these days. One guess who his fave (all-time) fighter was. :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Fair enough. I didn't think you would take my post saying you are consumed by your love for JCC Seriously. I actually thought you would find the Randall thing amusing.
> 
> *The irony in all of this is that I'm happy JCC won.*
> 
> And let me know when you watch that Penalosa fight I sent you. I want one of your patented essays. I think he was a stunning operator. Stunning.


And you couldn't of fucking said this from the beginning?! :rofl Jesus Fuck, man.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote and I were seriously having to consider taking action and suspending your JCC card until further review. It was turning into a crisis.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> And you couldn't of fucking said this from the beginning?! :rofl Jesus Fuck, man.


You know JCC is my guy, man. I would take his punishing combinations over Meldrick's shoe shining all day long. I do think the stoppage was hugely questionable but that's not Chavez's fault. The commentary team was made to look ridiculous once Taylor's face became battered beyond recognition. And you're right -- Taylor was lucky it wasn't a 15 round fight. Chavez looked like he could go another 12.

And I'm sorry to hear about your father buddy. That's terrible.



> Zopilote and I were seriously having to consider taking action and suspending your JCC card until further review. It was turning into a crisis.


:lol:


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Sr Zurdo de Oro would like a word with you.


Zurdo is the Holy Spirit of Mexican boxing.
He and Chava are one.

I know you will ignore this, @Hands of Iron, as you always do with anything that can shatter carefully selected lists _(Malick is Sokurov's bitch)_ but still:


Lester1583 said:


> ...but then I accidentally stumbled upon Saldivar - Ultiminio Ramos.
> 
> Haven't watched it in years.
> 
> ...





Lester1583 said:


> He's basically* the Leonard of Mexicans*.
> Only without ducking, gifts and losses in his prime.
> 
> Short career, almost no soft touches, H2H-beastness, great names, great comeback, rapid decline, embarrassing loss to an ATG.


Food for thought.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Posters left and right are quoting themselves in threads now. What is this new phenomenon? This never went down before.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Man, don't bring up Rigo. That was an embarrassment. I was wrong. It sounded semi-convincing, at least. I did find it fucking hilarious that it was why you thought I stopped watching boxing. :rofl Could've been, as much as I was incessantly banging on about his footwork and control of distance. Fuck Me. Fuck you @turbotime. I remember being in L.A. that weekend and you mentioning the shit out of my name when he was going life and death with that Japanese club fighter. He beat the brakes off him but it was already over. Bad Call.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Man, don't bring up Rigo. That was an embarrassment. I was wrong. It sounded semi-convincing, at least. I did find it fucking hilarious that it was why you thought I stopped watching boxing. :rofl Could've been, as much as I was incessantly banging on about his footwork and control of distance. Fuck Me. Fuck you @turbotime. I remember being in L.A. that weekend and you mentioning the shit out of my name when he was going life and death with that Japanese club fighter. He beat the brakes off him but it was already over. Bad Call.


That Rigo nuthugging thread. :lol: Hes hardly a Buchanan.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> That Rigo nuthugging thread. :lol: Hes hardly a Buchanan.


Puts on a clinic against a guy who can't fight on the front foot for JACKSHIT and he's the King of Footwork. What utter nonsense. Somebody should've slapped me for that. The funny thing is, he's still a P4P talent, highly skilled and hasn't lost. The shit I was talking was beyond that though.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm in the same boat as Hands of Iron, buddy. I've only just really made a return to current boxing. I have seen Gonzalez fight on a number of occasions however and he's very fluid. A beautifully smooth composite puncher that I think hangs with any 105-112lbs fighter ever.


If you haven't seen it yet, I highly suggest you check out Roman Gonzalez vs Juan Francisco Estrada.

Excellent, excellent bout.


----------



## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well, you quoted a post of mine with an insanely long-winded scolding about how '93 Greg fucking Haugen wasn't a signature win for Julio as if I was somehow oblivious to this. Under what circumstances am I not supposed to be offended by that, the fact that it was in response to someone else's post and not any of mine? :rofl :yep Not everyone taking a gander at this thread - and there have been a lot from what I've observed - may be aware of that.
> 
> How? There's at least two clear examples where it should've been overwhelmingly evident. And what sort of JCC nuthugger would concede the things I've said in this thread as it pertains to Mayweather's ATG standing in comparison to Chavez? Or post obscure articles from the early 1990s showing he clearly sidestepped Pineda for whatever reason and vacated the IBF strap which Whitaker promptly picked up. I've spent nearly as much time talking Pea in here as Chavez. I hadn't spoken of the man since last Spring and only started up again when @Pedderrs came back because I *thought* he might be interested in discussing him but I come to find he sold out Chavez, his people and his soul for the BBC. Maybe not considering that undie selfie that came out a year or so ago.
> 
> ...


Carlos Ortiz is the number 1 Puerto Rican fighter of all time, I can't deny that. It goes Carlos Ortiz>Wilfredo Gomez>Wilfred Benitez>Felix Trinidad.

I just like Trinidad as one of my top 5 favorite fighters of all time because he had all the attributes I love in a fighter. Extremely fan friendly style with love and adoration for all of his fans, a professional in and out of the ring, but most of all the willingness to become great. You don't see that from fighters nowadays, especially not to the extent that Trinidad did it.

I'm not gonna like or dislike a fighter just because of their race or nationality. I'm not like that one weird Cuban kid who posts here... who dick rides every Cuban boxer out there and who missed his prom just to watch the Donaire-Rigo bout live.


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

turbotime said:


> Lots of revisionist history here. Not to mention Mayweather dominated Marquez who later went on to knock Manny the hell out. Mayweather was also a two weight champ at the same time while barely losing rounds.
> 
> Here is Mayweather against top 10 opposition.
> 
> ...


Wait a minute! You criticised me citing Clottey, Larios, Margarito etc but you just cited Manfredy, Ndou, Corley, Gatti, Judah, Baldomi, Ortiz, Guerrero, Gerena!!! Are you kidding me?! Mayweather dominated JMM did he?! At WW when one was 32 & the other 35! What is it with Mayweather fans.. You have no humility whatsoever & cannot even concede the blatantly obvious! I don't know how many times I need to say it but I am talking overall resume depth & in there primes! Most of Floyds best wins came in his 30's & towards the latter part of his career!

In Mannys prime (the 00's) he had two wins over Barrera, JMM & Morales (all of whom were prime or near prime IMO) Not sum WW version on the wrong side of 35! He also beat prime Cotto, & Larios etc

As he aged he fought Bradley, Clottey, Margarito & Oscar etc You are suggesting they have even resumes so give me 7 wins FMJ had in his prime equal to those over FW/SFW JMM, Morales, Barrera & WW Cotto?

Latter career Floyd may edge it because of his win over MP but overall no. Bradley> Canelo too btw! Why did Floyd wait until his mid 30's to give his resume a serious boost? Pac, Alvarez & Cotto. Can you imagine he had not fought them?! He'd have a middle aged JMM, Oscar & Mosley! Hatton & Judah would be amongst his crowning achievements!

Corrales & Castillo are top fighters sure but they are not on the level of the 3 Pac fought! I have never seen a poll, publication or fair ranking system say they are either! Floyd mayweather fought a 35 year old JMM & A 36 year old MP at WW! That is just fact! Why was that? Floyd is clearly the better boxer but saying they are even resume wise is just wrong.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Manny Pacquiao's win column is very impressive. Usually a fighter's resume will have strength in depth or a couple of huge names, but in the case of Manny Pacquiao he arguably has both. '03 MAB was a top 3 P4P talent and was brutalised like nobody had brutalised him before or since. Even in his stoppage loss to Junior Jones down at 122lbs, Marco had at least been competitive prior to getting caught by a monster right hand. He was never in the fight against Manny. It's a truly incredible performance and victory to go along with a whole host of similarly brilliant wins against names like Miguel Cotto, Juan Manuel Marquez, Erik Morales, Timothy Bradley, Leho Ledwaba, Ricky Hatton, Oscar Larios etc. I think I like Manny's resume more than Floyd's currently, but the more Manny keeps on winning and turning in performances like his last one, the more impressive Floyd's victory over him seems.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> Wait a minute! You criticised me citing Clottey, Larios, Margarito etc but you just cited Manfredy, Ndou, Corley, Gatti, Judah, Baldomi, Ortiz, Guerrero, Gerena!!! Are you kidding me?! Mayweather dominated JMM did he?! At WW when one was 32 & the other 35!


Same Marquez that kod Pacquiao.



> Most of Floyds best wins came in his 30's & towards the latter part of his career!


Which makes it more impressive that he was barely losing rounds to bigger guys closing in on 40



> In Mannys prime (the 00's) he had two wins over Barrera, JMM & Morales (all of whom were prime or near prime IMO),


Barrera and Morales weren't prime. Morales could barely make the weight and was beaten pretty badly the fight before. There is also an argument to be made Pacquiao didn't beat Marquez once that he should be 0-4



> As he aged he fought Bradley, Clottey, Margarito & Oscar etc You are suggesting they have even resumes so give me 7 wins FMJ had in his prime equal to those over FW/SFW JMM, Morales, Barrera & WW Cotto?


Oscar Floyd beat was superior to the Oscar Manny beat

Canelo was superior to the Margarito Manny

Mosley was superior to Larios

Floyd vs Cotto and Manny vs Cotto is close. Floyd beat a more weight comfortable version who would go on to win the middleweight crown and Manny beat a younger version but weight drained. I'd call it a draw.

I'd rank Barrera over Castillo or Corrales, but I'd rank Castillo and Corrales over the weight drained ghost of Morales Manny took two tries to beat.

I'd rank Bradley with Ricky Hatton. Overrated. Scraped by JMM and his next best win is Devon Alexander. No where near as great as Hatton making Kosta Tsyzu quit



> Latter career Floyd may edge itBradley> Canelo too btw!


Canelo top 5 wins

Lara
Cotto
Kirkland
Angulo
Trout

Bradley top 5 wins

Alexander
JMM
Provodnikov
Peterson
Witter?

Edge Canelo



> Pac, Alvarez & Cotto. Can you imagine he had not fought them?! He'd have a middle aged JMM, Oscar & Mosley! Hatton & Judah would be amongst his crowning achievements!
> 
> Corrales & Castillo are top fighters sure but they are not on the level of the 3 Pac fought! I have never seen a poll, publication or fair ranking system say they are either! Floyd mayweather fought a 35 year old JMM & A 36 year old MP at WW! That is just fact! Why was that? Floyd is clearly the better boxer but saying they are even resume wise is just wrong.


Floyd's a better fighter and has a better resume.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm a MAB fan. A big one, but he was prime in '03. There is simply no evidence at all to suggest otherwise. He looked stupendously good before Manny and he would go on to look stupendously good afterwards. I understand you're a Floyd fan and therefore want to make a compelling argument for him having a better resume than Pac, but you can do that without running with the idea that MAB was past his prime when he was enjoying the most impressive streak of his career.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

I can understand the argument for Morales being past prime when Pacquiao beat him, but Barrera? That's just retarded lol


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Also Canelo might be better than Bradley on a P4P basis, but he was tailor-made for Mayweather. It's not that impressive a win. I have Bradley ahead anyway, even an old JMM blows anything Canelo has out of the water


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Let's please not say it was the same JMM. I don't think Marquez would have beaten Floyd at any point at WW but please, not the same Marquez. It just wasn't.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Right buddies! Chavez-Taylor I is getting watched tonight. Ka-boom! @Hands of Iron @PityTheFool @Bogotazo @turbotime @Zopilote


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> even an old JMM blows anything Canelo has out of the water


I don't think anyone disputes that one.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Right buddies! Chavez-Taylor I is getting watched tonight. Ka-boom! @Hands of Iron @PityTheFool @Bogotazo @turbotime @Zopilote


Bad stoppage!!


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I don't think anyone disputes that one.


True, but what I really meant to say is that it is this fight that tips the balance to Bradley, Canelo's Cotto and Lara wins are better than Alexander and Provo


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Bad stoppage!!


I'm going to turn it off after the 11th round and score it accordingly.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm going to turn it off after the 11th round and score it accordingly.


That should be a rule.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> True, but what I really meant to say is that it is this fight that tips the balance to Bradley, Canelo's Cotto and Lara wins are better than Alexander and Provo


Hmmm, depends on how you view Bradleys fights. alexander was never any good to me but his Marquez win was a good one for sure to me


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm going to turn it off after the 11th round and score it accordingly.





turbotime said:


> That should be a rule.


The 12th is awesome though? It's been a couple years but going off memory:

01 - Taylor 10-9
02 - Chavez 10-9
03 - Taylor 10-9
04 - Taylor 10-9
05 - Taylor 10-9
06 - Taylor 10-9
07 - Taylor 10-9
08 - Taylor 10-9
09 - Taylor 10-9
10 - Chavez 10-9
11 - Chavez 10-9
12 - Chavez 10-8


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> The 12th is awesome though? It's been a couple years but going off memory:
> 
> 01 - Taylor 10-9
> 02 - Chavez 10-9
> ...


Edit: I would never turn the fight off before the 12th.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Edit: I would never turn the fight off before the 12th.


All of the controversy and scorecard business really does take away from what an awesome fight it was. Absolutely deserving FOTD. May not seem like it given the conversation thus far but I really like TNT as a fighter himself, the McGirt performance a couple years prior to JCC was tremendous. He was a Top 5 P4P guy for a good 3-4 years and should've been an ATG but I worry he was a bit too hittable and didn't possess the power to do too much above 140 lbs.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> All of the controversy and scorecard business really does take away from what an awesome fight it was. Absolutely deserving FOTD. May not seem like it given the conversation thus far but I really like TNT as a fighter himself, the McGirt performance a couple years prior to JCC was tremendous. He was a Top 5 P4P guy for a good 3-4 years and should've been an ATG but I worry he was a bit too hittable and didn't possess the power to do too much above 140 lbs.


I agree with all of this buddy.

A more measured and perceptive commentary team would have elevated the spectacle though. Their bias can be a little distracting.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


>


The overhead angles. Oh Nooooooo. No, No, No. :rofl Jesus. Diabolical Speed Demon.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm going to turn it off after the 11th round and score it accordingly.


Had it 7-4 for Taylor last time I scored it, which has been quite a while since.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The 12th is awesome though? It's been a couple years but going off memory:
> 
> 01 - Taylor 10-9
> 02 - Chavez 10-9
> ...


Had it almost exactly like you did, but I recall having Julio edge out the 9th last time out. I gotta watch it again sometime.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Had it almost exactly like you did, but I recall having Julio edge out the 9th last time out. I gotta watch it again sometime.


Well, it sure as hell wasn't 11-0 going into the 12th round. If Taylor had seen through to the final bell, he'd have won the fight 115-112 on my super-biased card. That's a clear win, but not the completely one-sided drubbing it's made out to be. Especially when you consider the state of Meldrick's physical condition post-fight and the fact he was rocked and knocked to the canvas.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Harold Lederman gave Ramirez round 3 against Chavez. 

A sackable offence.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well, it sure as hell wasn't 11-0 going into the 12th round. If Taylor had seen through to the final bell, he'd have won the fight 115-112 on my super-biased card. That's a clear win, but not the completely one-sided drubbing it's made out to be. Especially when you consider the state of Meldrick's physical condition post-fight and the fact he was rocked and knocked to the canvas.


Lets say Steele didn't stop it and let the fight resumed, and Julio, filled with nonstop adrenaline and being well aware that he's losing, lounges over to Taylor and catches him with a monster shot just as the bell rings, or maybe even a smigdet after...Taylor would have gone the distance..but wouldn't it be a bit awkward announcing the winner of the fight, while he's layed the fuck out on the floor?? :yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

^^ :rofl :hey


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Harold Lederman gave Ramirez round 3 against Chavez.
> 
> A sackable offence.


Lederman also gave the 8th to Pacquiao on the third fight with JMM. A clear Marquez round.

Fuck that old ugly stupid sounding fuck.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Kevin Rooney has it 3-3 going into the 7th. :conf


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

69 thrown, 42 landed. 

JCC was a fucking surgeon.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Kevin Rooney has it 3-3 going into the 7th. :conf


If i recall, Merchant had it 5-1 going into the 7th. Rooney's commentary was beyond annoying in that fight.

As for the fight itself, Julio put on a goddamn clinic. Dude was surgical as fuck with those right hands.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> If i recall, Merchant had it 5-1 going into the 7th. Rooney's commentary was beyond annoying in that fight.
> 
> As for the fight itself, Julio put on a goddamn clinic. Dude was surgical as fuck with those right hands.


JLR was doing okay early, I guess, but this one has quickly turned into a clinic. Ramirez is getting a beating here. Chavez must have had one of the best lead rights I've seen at the lower weights. It's always a primary weapon and rarely misses, even against fighters with head movement.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> 69 thrown, 42 landed.
> 
> JCC was a fucking surgeon.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Kevin must hate JLR because he wanted to see a rematch apparently.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> JLR was doing okay early, I guess, but this one has quickly turned into a clinic. Ramirez is getting a beating here. Chavez must have had one of the best lead rights I've seen at the lower weights. It's always a primary weapon and rarely misses, even against fighters with head movement.


Yeah, I remember a sick ass sequence where Julio catches him with lead right hand, quickly catches him again with another right, and then with a sweeping right. Triple right hand leads, and done so effortlessly. I know Julio has always been know for his lethal left rip to the body, but it was indeed his right hand that was by far his best weapon.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Yeah, I remember a sick ass sequence where Julio catches him with lead right hand, quickly catches him again with another right, and then with a sweeping right. Triple right hand leads, and done so effortlessly. I know Julio has always been know for his lethal left rip to the body, but it was indeed his right hand that was by far his best weapon.


He is known for both IMO. I find it terribly difficult to choose between them although ultimately I think you're correct if forced to pick. The only thing I'd change about his career would be a longer stint at 135. He could've carved out a Top 10 legacy there in one of boxing's most historically rich divisions. The bastard classes just don't have the same mystique. Just have to settle for him being one of the greatest 135 lb fighters of all-time H2H. Kind of sucks to have Dooran and Pea up there but not Julio. But then again, Whitaker still comes out on top as the best of the era, so...


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Yeah, I remember a sick ass sequence where Julio catches him with lead right hand, quickly catches him again with another right, and then with a sweeping right. Triple right hand leads, and done so effortlessly. I know Julio has always been know for his lethal left rip to the body, but it was indeed his right hand that was by far his best weapon.


In my mind, this is what primarily separates him ability-wise from the three amigos. He could dominate fights with either hand; he could finish fights with either hand. The others had one showier side and were merely good or very good elsewhere; Chavez was world class across the board. Chavez was obviously more elusive and durable than those three, too. Just a complete fighting machine.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> In my mind, this is what primarily separates him ability-wise from the three amigos. He could dominate fights with either hand; he could finish fights with either hand. The others had one showier side and were merely good or very good elsewhere; Chavez was world class across the board. Chavez was obviously more elusive and durable than those three, too. Just a complete fighting machine.


And practically none of it down to natural physical gifts aside from maybe the ability to take a punch. I was literally just talking about this with Bogo, and I suppose you could throw endurance in there as well although that's to be anchored by the state of 'conditioning', something to be improved and worked on. He was otherwise just pure skill with little in the way of elite physical attributes. It's why it isn't outrageous to say he's a Top 10 shout for it, given his completeness as a fighter.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Right buddies! Chavez-Taylor I is getting watched tonight. Ka-boom! @Hands of Iron @PityTheFool @Bogotazo @turbotime @Zopilote


Ok.I'm off to bed but I'm feeling mischievous,so I'll leave you all with a cold hard fact to ponder;

That fight fixing father of a piece of shit bitch was lucky he wasn't a few pounds lighter a few years earlier...........

Or mi hermano might have saved us from Julio's train wreck bowl chomping train wreck.

Qué piensas










Yeah.That's what I thought.

Night y'all.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MAB is my guy! :hat


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Morales would beat Chavez 

he has him beat stylistically


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Morales would beat Chavez
> 
> he has him beat stylistically


Morales gets stopped at 130lbs. He can't hurt JCC and he's too hittable to take the right hands and body work for long. MAB outfought him twice; I would hate to think what JCC would have done to El Terrible.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Morales would beat Chavez
> 
> he has him beat stylistically


You are correct, and it was proven. He did beat Chavez..Jesus Chavez


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Shit just got weird on this page. It was going so well.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> That's why I refrain from putting my top 10 boxers. People would pick at it and bring up stats and shit even though I know I'm right.


Pussy.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> I can understand the argument for Morales being past prime when Pacquiao beat him, but Barrera? That's just retarded lol


Morales was certainly past prime and struggling to make the weight.

Barrera was coming off two wars with Morales, 60 fights and above his best weight class. I rate Barrera higher than any Floyd win despite you know clowning Pacquiao easily, but it was not the best Barrera


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Also Canelo might be better than Bradley on a P4P basis, but he was tailor-made for Mayweather. It's not that impressive a win. I have Bradley ahead anyway, even an old JMM blows anything Canelo has out of the water


Silly logic. Mayweather was giving up 10lbs and a decade plus in age against a guy who still hasn't lost since and he won easily standing in front of him for most of the night. It's impressive. If you wanna go that route Canelo win over Lara is superior to Bradley's win over Marquez considering Lara had a statistic advantage over Canelo and Marquez was at a massive stylistic disadvantage against Bradley.



Bogotazo said:


> Let's please not say it was the same JMM. I don't think Marquez would have beaten Floyd at any point at WW but please, not the same Marquez. It just wasn't.


What was different about him?


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Morales was certainly past prime and struggling to make the weight.
> 
> Barrera was coming off two wars with Morales, 60 fights and above his best weight class. I rate Barrera higher than any Floyd win despite you know clowning Pacquiao easily, but it was not the best Barrera


Agreed about Morales, but have to disagree about Marco.

Barrera may not have been in his physical peak, but as far as his skills, that's the most complete version of MAB there was, and certainly the best version Pacquiao could have ever fought. Despite him being older, and in higher weight class, that was certainly a much superior version than the younger 122lb Barrera.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> Agreed about Morales, but have to disagree about Marco.
> 
> Barrera may not have been in his physical peak, but as far as his skills, that's the most complete version of MAB there was, and certainly the best version Pacquiao could have ever fought. Despite him being older, and in higher weight class, that was certainly a much superior version than the younger 122lb Barrera.


He looked slow as molasses in that fight. Pacquiao was ten steps ahead of him, it didn't look too different from his demolition of De LA Hoya. Pacquiao stylistically would always be a nightmare for Barrera given how hard it is to get inside him and land the left hook but I think a younger version is able to keep up with Pacquiao's pace much better than the older version that looked like they shouldn't have been in the ring together


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> He looked slow as molasses in that fight. Pacquiao was ten steps ahead of him, it didn't look too different from his demolition of De LA Hoya. Pacquiao stylistically would always be a nightmare for Barrera given how hard it is to get inside him and land the left hook but I think a younger version is able to keep up with Pacquiao's pace much better than the older version that looked like they shouldn't have been in the ring together


Hmm I think a younger version would be more willing to engage with Manny, which would be disastrous for Marco.

Marco around the first Morales fight is where he was at his absolute peak IMO, but even then Manny would be too much for him. Manny is a stylistic nightmare for him like you said.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Here is Mayweather against top 10 opposition.
> 
> 1998: Genaro Hernandez (World SFW Champion)
> 1998: Angel Manfredy (No. 2 SFW)
> ...


03/88: Jose Luis Ramirez (100-6) [Top 3 LW; WBC champ]
02/89: Greg Haugen (23-1) [Top 3 LW; IBF champ]
04/89: Louie Lomeli (24-0) [Top 10 LW]
08/89: Jose Luis Ramirez (102-7) [Top 3 LW; vacant WBC]
02/90: Freddie Pendleton (24-16) [Top 5 LW]
05/90: Azumah Nelson (32-1) [SFW Champ; #6 P4P] (@135)
08/90: Juan Nazario (22-2) [Top 3 LW; WBA champ]
02/91: Anthony Jones (26-2) [Top 5 LW]
07/91: Poli Diaz (32-0) [Top 5 LW]
10/91: Jorge Paez (38-3) [Top 3 LW]
07/92: Rafael Pineda (28-1) [Top 2 LWW; IBF champ]
03/93: Buddy McGirt (59-2) [WW Champ; #4 P4P]
09/93: Julio Cesar Chavez (87-0) [LWW Champ; #1 P4P] (@145)
10/94: Buddy McGirt (64-3) [Top 3 WW]
03/95: Julio Cesar Vasquez (53-1) [Top 2 LMW; WBC champ]
04/96: Wilfredo Rivera (23-0 [Top 10 WW]
09/96: Wilfredo Rivera (23-1) [Top 10 WW]
04/97: Oscar De La Hoya (23-0) [LWW Champ; #2 P4P] (@147)
10/97: Andrey Pestreyaev (20-1) [Top 10 WW]
02/99: Felix Trinidad (33-0) [Top 2 WW; #4 P4P; IBF champ]

There you go @Bogotazo. Unfortunately can't get as specific as the Floyd version due to lack of data and information. Where the guy is quite clearly the best in a particular division, the alphabet soup is dropped regardless of Lineal this or that. There are two guys who happened to not be rated in a particular division at the time who should still be mentioned: They are Roger Mayweather (@135) and Harold Brazier (@140). Uncle Roger won titles at 130 and 140 but not 135.

Nobody on Whitaker's 135 ledger as good as '72 Buchanan or '74 DeJesus aside from Azumah Nelson - a better overall fighter than either - who was challenging for the title as the guy at super featherweight. However, he beat far more of the ordinary top five rated guys of his era, contender types where nothing in particular stands out as far as ability goes. And by about twice as many as Roberto fought in the 1970s. A faded Jose Luis Ramirez is still a good scalp, and the absolutely dominating fashion he did it in also boosts. If Duran is a Top 5 lightweight most notably for the dominating fashion in which he ruled, then so is Whitaker. Performances such as Haugen, Ramirez II and Nelson were absurdly good. Nazario too I guess considering he one-punch KO'ed him to unify the division. Most of his big legacy work in terms of top wins obviously took place post-135 in beating McGirt (x2), JCC and Vasquez, thoroughly dominating Chavez and McGirt (in the rematch; from the third round on to be specific). The De La Hoya and Trinidad fights were fucking ballsy, imagine he'd won both and not just the Oscar bout.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Silly logic. Mayweather was giving up 10lbs and a decade plus in age against a guy who still hasn't lost since and he won easily standing in front of him for most of the night. It's impressive. If you wanna go that route Canelo win over Lara is superior to Bradley's win over Marquez considering Lara had a statistic advantage over Canelo and Marquez was at a massive stylistic disadvantage against Bradley.
> 
> What was different about him?


Da rooooids


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> 03/88: Jose Luis Ramirez (100-6) [Top 3 LW; WBC champ]
> 02/89: Greg Haugen (23-1) [Top 3 LW; IBF champ]
> 04/89: Louie Lomeli (24-0) [Top 10 LW]
> 08/89: Jose Luis Ramirez (102-7) [Top 3 LW; vacant WBC]
> ...


Fucking excellent. What an effort.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Fucking excellent. What an effort.


Who Nex?! Duran? Es Are El?

Ray Robinson? Thanks to my lovely Norwegian connect that had a collection of almost every fucking edition of RING Magazine ever published. I think he passed away. 

1941: Sammy Angott (No. 1 LW) (@135)
1941: Maxie Shapiro (No. 9 LW) (@135)
1941: Fritzie Zivic (No. 1 WW)
-- Robinson debuts at No. 1 in the welterweight ratings after win over Zivic.
1942: Fritzie Zivic (No. 3 WW)
1942: Norman Rubio (No. 9 WW)
1942: Marty Servo (No. 7 WW)
1942: Sammy Angott (World LW Champ) (@ 147)
1942: Tony Motisi (No. 9 WW)
1942: Jake LaMotta (No. 10 MW)
1942: Izzy Janazzo (No. 9 WW)
1942: Izzy Janazzo (No. 9 WW)
1943: Jake La Motta (No. 6 MW) 
1943: Jackie Wilson (No. 2 WW)
1943: Jake La Motta (No. 1 MW)
1943: Henry Armstrong (No. 2 WW)
1944: Vic Dellicurti (No. 10 MW)
1945: Tommy Bell (No. 6 WW)
1945: Jake LaMotta (No. 3 MW)
1945: Jose Basora (No. 6 MW) 
1945: Jimmy McDaniels (No. 6 WW)
1945: Jake LaMotta (No. 1 MW)
1946: Sammy Angott (No. 6 WW)
1946: Joe Curcio (No. 9 WW)
1946: Tommy Bell (No. 2 WW)
-- Wins vacant Welterweight title.
1947: Georgie Abrams (No. 3 MW)
1947: Jimmy Doyle (No. 6 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1948: Bernard Docusen (No. 1 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1948: Kid Gavilan (No. 1 WW)
1949: Kid Gavilan (No. 1 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1949: Steve Belloise (No. 2 MW)
-- Robinson debuts at No. 1 at middleweight after win over Belloise. He still continues to hold the welterweight championship.
1950: George Costner (No. 2 WW)
1950: Robert Villemain (No. 2 MW)
1950: Charley Fusari (No. 5 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title.
1950: Robert Villemain (No. 4 MW)
1951: Jake LaMotta (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
-- Robinson vacates welterweight title after win over LaMotta.
1951: Randy Turpin (No. 1 MW) 
-- Loses Middleweight title
1951: Randy Turpin (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1952: Carl "Bobo" Olson (No. 5 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1952: Rocky Graziano (No. 9 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1952: Joey Maxim (World LHW Champion)
-- Robinson retires for 30 months after loss to Maxim. 
1955: Rocky Castellani (No. 2 MW)
1955: Carl "Bobo" Olson (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1956: Carl "Bobo" Olson (No. 1 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1957: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW)
-- Loses Middleweight title
1957: Gene Fullmer (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1957: Carmen Basilio (World WW Champion) (@160)
-- Loses Middleweight title
1958: Carmen Basilio (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1959: No fights vs. top contenders
1960: Paul Pender (No. 8 MW) 
-- Loses Middleweight title
1960: Paul Pender (World MW Champion)
1960: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) 
1961: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) 
1961: Denny Moyer (No. 9 MW)
1962: Denny Moyer (No. 9 MW) 
1962: Terry Downes (No. 3 MW) 
1963: Ralph Dupas (No. 3 WW) (@160)
1963: Joey Giardello (No. 3 MW) 
1964: No fights vs. top 10 contenders
1965: Stan Harrington (No. 9 MW) 
1965: Joey Archer (No. 4 MW)


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Silly logic. Mayweather was giving up 10lbs and a decade plus in age against a guy who still hasn't lost since and he won easily standing in front of him for most of the night. It's impressive. If you wanna go that route Canelo win over Lara is superior to Bradley's win over Marquez considering Lara had a statistic advantage over Canelo and Marquez was at a massive stylistic disadvantage against Bradley.


Yeah, sure it was impressive, but let's not pretend that Canelo was ever going to beat Mayweather. The JMM win is still far far superior to Lara, as almost any version of JMM is simply better than Lara ever was, is, or ever will be. Lara is the most overrated fighter today


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Morales was certainly past prime and struggling to make the weight.
> 
> Barrera was coming off two wars with Morales, 60 fights and above his best weight class. I rate Barrera higher than any Floyd win despite you know clowning Pacquiao easily, but it was not the best Barrera


When did Barrera look noticeably past prime after that? He was still looking sharp for a few years after that


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

@Zopilote and @Eoghan droppin' truths about MAB. Both have been totally on point. It didn't matter if it was at 122lbs or 126lbs, peak MAB was 00-03. You would have to say that ended with Pacquiao's destruction, but the Barrera that schooled Ayala and out pointed Morales afterwards at Super Feather was still elite and one of the best in the sport. Remember, the only fighters to beat this kid from '98-08 were named Morales, Pacquiao and Marquez. Only the very best beat him post-Jones.

The first time we saw a noticeably past prime and shopworn MAB was Juarez I in my estimation. Juarez was one dimensional and one paced, a peak MAB has no problems with him at all.


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Same Marquez that kod Pacquiao.
> 
> Which makes it more impressive that he was barely losing rounds to bigger guys closing in on 40
> 
> ...


So these 7 historically important wins Floyd had in his prime equal to FW/SFW wins over these 4 ATG's:

-Marco Antonio Barrera 03
-Juan Manuel Marquez 04
-Érik Morales 06
-Érik Morales 06
-Marco Antonio Barrera 07
-Juan Manuel Marquez 08
-WW Miguel Cotto 09

Then??


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Edge Canelo
> 
> Witter?


I'm sorry but no. Rios, Vargas, old JMM, Prov, Casamayor, Alexander, Peterson, Abregu, Wiiter, Vasquez, Holt. Officially 1-2 with Pac. More depth & better historical accomplishments to date. Advantage Bradley.

Can't believe you questioned Witter whilst at the same time listing Canelo's top 5 wins Kirkland & Angulo.. LMAO! Didn't Witter beat Lovemore N'dou, Andreas Kotelnik, DeMarcus Corley, Vivian Harris?! Which is a probably better win set than either of those have or at least equal!


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Do you know I even forgot Lehlohonolo Ledwaba too!


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Beast





MichiganWarrior said:


> Bum


You're both right.

Barrera was rated as highly as ever back then.
And he was a versatile mature fighter on an excellent winning streak.

Definitely not just another aging champ.

On the other hand, physically he was past-prime.
He was already considered a declined fighter prior to Hamed.

Don't think mentally he was the Barrera of old too.
Didn't have "fight till death" in him anymore.
At least not in that fight.
Which coincided with a rarity in modern boxing - he ran into an unheralded rising ATG.
Most likely wasn't expecting/wasn't prepared mentally for this level of competition.

The lofty P4P-rating was more like a culmination of his career, rather than a reflection his H2H-beastness at the time.
The post-Tyson Holyfield stage of his career.

Agree with the notion that trying to outslug Pacquiao is asking for a KO a la Hatton more often than not.

A pumped-up Barrera that mixed aggressive boxing with a measured approach circa Hamed would've fared much better than the one that wilted like the manilla ice under the hot mexican sun.

By the way, your list was instantly recognizable, @Hands of Iron.
It reeks of americana.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The Duran thread is where it be now. This one has been gayed up enough with Pacquiao shite. Not a worse topic than arguing Mayweather/Pacquiao anything. Except Ward/GGG.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> If Duran is a Top 5 lightweight most notably for the dominating fashion in which he ruled, then so is Whitaker.


Laughable double standards are the pillars of boxing.


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Lester1583 said:


> On the other hand, physically he was past-prime.
> He was already considered a declined fighter prior to Hamed.


Umhh maybe that performance shat on that idea then & people should have kept those thoughts to themselves?! It's still a better win than any win Floyd had in his prime (So are MP's first two fights with with JMM at FW/SFW in fact better than any wins Floyd had in his prime & that includes Oscar at LMW... ) Kelly, Tapia, Hamed, Morales, Sanchez he had just defeated them all. The fab 4 were all prime or near prime IMO. I think MP sealed the deal with Morales' career & ended him as a force though I agree he wasn't probably at his best.

Manny defeated a better JMM & Cotto!

Genaro Hernández was a great win but he's not on a par with FW/SFW JMM & Barrera. Barrera had defeated five-time world featherweight champion Medina, Salido, Juarez, Barrera, Derrick Gainer etc around that time & at those weights.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I think I'll head over to Great Wok around lunch time today and get myself the sweet and sour chicken lunch combo. It comes with an egg roll, couple of crab puffs and most importantly, hot and sour soup. I like hot and sour soup a lot.

@PityTheFool Who are the 10 boxers, dunny? I assume you meant ATG's and not mere favourites.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Would Ward have ducked Duran too?


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

@Lester1583 You're a comedy poster and don't you forget it. Leave the boxing talk to the rest of us.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

:rofl


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> I'm sorry but no. Rios, Vargas, old JMM, Prov, Casamayor, Alexander, Peterson, Abregu, Wiiter, Vasquez, Holt. Officially 1-2 with Pac. More depth & better historical accomplishments to date. Advantage Bradley.
> 
> Can't believe you questioned Witter whilst at the same time listing Canelo's top 5 wins Kirkland & Angulo.. LMAO! Didn't Witter beat Lovemore N'dou, Andreas Kotelnik, DeMarcus Corley, Vivian Harris?! Which is a probably better win set than either of those have or at least equal!


You believe that shot fat Rios and Grandpa Casamayor are as good as Kirkland and Angulo? Would you rate Vargas above Austin Trout? Just stop.

Alexander has been a massive disappointment and should have losses to Kotelnik and Mattysee, Witter was on the back end of his career and Peterson who I like is good but has some bad performances.

Hell Austin Trouts dominating win over Cotto is better than any victory in Bradley's career alone including an old Marquez.

Also let's stick to reality here. Do not mention Bradley being officially 1-2 against Pacquiao. One of the most farcical decisions in recent boxing memory.

Marquez is a p4p great who has Pacquiao's number, let's not go making the case that he is some welterweight monster when he is clearly not as well. If Marquez fights Cotto I got Cotton going away @Bogotazo


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> So these 7 historically important wins Floyd had in his prime equal to FW/SFW wins over these 4 ATG's:
> 
> -Marco Antonio Barrera 03
> *Manny Pacquiao 15*
> ...


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Yeah, sure it was impressive, but let's not pretend that Canelo was ever going to beat Mayweather. The JMM win is still far far superior to Lara, as almost any version of JMM is simply better than Lara ever was, is, or ever will be. Lara is the most overrated fighter today


You're kinda penalizing Mayweather for being good.

I agree about Lara being overrated and I've said as much but Lara as a super middleweight is better than welterweight JMM who has no feats at WW to speak besides koing Pacquiao who he had down like a book.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Still less banal than Mayweather/Pacquiao.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

That's a bit mainstream for you, Hoi.

I'm calling you "Hoi" from now on, short for @Hands of Iron. It's done.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> That's a bit mainstream for you, Hoi.
> 
> I'm calling you "Hoi" from now on, short for @Hands of Iron. It's done.


Decent eats for less than 10 bucks. @Hands of Iron. isn't me. I still don't know who would want to attempt to make an imposter account but I guess they soon found out I'm an inaugural member of the 2012 CHB Class.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

That custom title @Bogotazo :rofl


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> than welterweight JMM who has no feats at WW to speak besides koing Pacquiao who he had down like a book.


You say that like its not a big achievement. You've also used this kind of logic to discredit Bradley and Pacquaio at welterweight as well, saying that they don't get to be rated highly at welter for fighting eachother 3 times. I disagree. All 3 of them were/are top welters at one time or another. Bradley might be the best welter barring Pac and Floyd.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Decent eats for less than 10 bucks. @Hands of Iron. isn't me. I still don't know who would want to attempt to make an imposter account but I guess they soon found out I'm an inaugural member of the 2012 CHB Class.


I'll always remember Hoi as the guy who went from knowing nothing about boxing to knowing everything about it in about 16 months.

A certified all-timer but I have to question how he gained his knowledge. I think it must have been one of his three wishes. The other two wishes must have been Floyd's retirement and Richard Steele's induction into the hall.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Tommy is the poster equivalent of Dooran. With Dooran, you didn't know if he would show up or not. And that's just like Tommy -- he could say something incredibly smart and insightful or something painfully stupid and misjudged. One of my favourite current posters. I associate him with Kermit Cintron though, not Michael Carbajal. You have to earn an avatar like that.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Tommy is the poster equivalent of Dooran. With Dooran, you didn't know if he would show up or not. And that's just like Tommy -- he could say something incredibly smart and insightful or something painfully stupid and misjudged. One of my favourite current posters. I associate him with Kermit Cintron though, not Michael Carbajal. You have to earn an avatar like that.


Please show me some of the stupid things I said. Not about Barrera.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Tommy is still a bare 19-year-old. That means he was posting on ESB at 13 and that's such an incredible jump from when I started giving a shit about anything but whatever the current boxing scene was. I was too busy partying, doing drugs and having sex. I'd say it started circa 2009 or so, browsing for a long while and watching/reading as much as I could. So you register and find out you still know fuck all. That's when shit got real. I've never obsessed over a topic as much or for as long as I did/have with boxing.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Tommy is still a bare 19-year-old. That means he was posting on ESB at 13 and that's such an incredible jump from when I started giving a shit about anything but whatever the current boxing scene was. I was too busy partying, doing drugs and having sex. I'd say it started circa 2009 or so, browsing for a long while and watching/reading as much as I could. So you register and find out you still know fuck all. That's when shit got real. I've never obsessed over a topic as much or for as long as I did/have with boxing.


I was posting 2009 m8

So thats even younger


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs don't like it when I cite ATGs but I'm simply compelled to do it. I was literally in awe at the extent of some of those OG's knowledge.


tommygun711 said:


> I was posting 2009 m8
> 
> So thats even younger


Before you even busted your first nut. Impressive, man.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

:lol::lol: you made me laugh out loud with that HoI


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> :lol::lol: you made me laugh out loud with that HoI


Fucked up but I feel like I know less now than I did a couple years ago. I remember being able to discuss guys like Greb and Armstrong with weirdos like Klompton and Janitor in fairly good detail. I don't hardly remember anything today.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Please show me some of the stupid things I said. Not about Barrera.


You said that Ray Leonard did not beat Hagler. Thing is, he kind of did. Like, the footage shows he did. Boxrec says he did. This book I have next to my bed entitled 'The Four Kings' also said that he did. I'm liable to believe all of the footage and literature available to me instead of believing the word of a 19 year old kid. I hope you don't take offense to any of this, it's just common sense my friend. Common.



> Pedderrs don't like it when I cite ATGs but I'm simply compelled to do it. I was literally in awe at the extent of some of those OG's knowledge.


I have no issues citing great posters. You're undeniably one of them, Hoi. But I don't like how you pull up old quotes from likes Flea Man as a rebuttal to any comments I may have made. The insinuation is that he's beyond reproach. "Well look, Flea said this, so you couldn't possibly be right". Flea is a knowledgeable boxing fan but not infallible. He once claimed that a 130lbs MMA fighter could choke out Anthony Joshua in a street fight. He once told me that he thought Darchinyan would beat Donaire in a rematch. He's also responsible for some of the forum's very best posts. I try not to put any poster on a pedestal whereas I think you may be guilty of it brah.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I have no issues citing great posters. You're undeniably one of them, Hoi. But I don't like how you pull up old quotes from likes Flea Man as a rebuttal to any comments I may have made. The insinuation is that he's beyond reproach. "Well look, Flea said this, so you couldn't possibly be right". Flea is a knowledgeable boxing fan but not infallible. He once claimed that a 130lbs MMA fighter could choke out Anthony Joshua in a street fight. He once told me that he thought Darchinyan would beat Donaire in a rematch. He's also responsible for some of the forum's very best posts. I try not to put any poster on a pedestal whereas I think you may be guilty of it brah.


Nah mate, I've had enough conversations with Flea to know that he isn't. He'd even vehemently say he isn't. His posting style over the years largely suggests that he thinks he is and I've always found it massively amusing. The most innocuous comment from some noob used to draw "Spastic, Die of Cancer" type insults.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah mate, I've had enough conversations with Flea to know that he isn't. He'd even vehemently say he isn't. His posting style over the years largely suggests that he thinks he is and I've always found it massively amusing. The most innocuous comment from some noob used to draw "Spastic, Die of Cancer" type insults.


:thumbsup

And get your bad self in my confessional thread. I know you have a few big names to unleash in there. Don't be shy.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> You say that like its not a big achievement. You've also used this kind of logic to discredit Bradley and Pacquaio at welterweight as well, saying that they don't get to be rated highly at welter for fighting eachother 3 times. I disagree. All 3 of them were/are top welters at one time or another. Bradley might be the best welter barring Pac and Floyd.


Why are they top welters. Explain that to me right now. Explain how Bradley is a top Welter when the only welterweight he's beaten in the top 10 is Jesse Vargas and he couldn't even look good doing that.

Go on. Tell me why I should rate Bradley for beating Alexander and Peterson 70 years ago


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Still less banal than Mayweather/Pacquiao.


Don't tempt me, I'm on a diet and I need MSG in my life. Starting to get the shakes

BTW, Jedi Mind Tricks, Immortal Technique are coming to Denver on the 14th. You make it up here I'll smoke you down.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Why are they top welters. Explain that too me right now. Explain how Bradley is a top Welter when the only welterweight he's beaten in the top 10 is Jesse Vargas and he couldn't even look good doing that.
> 
> Go on. Tell me why I should rate Bradley for beating Alexander and Peterson 70 years ago


How did FMjr get ranked at WW after only defeating an unranked WW in Sharmba Mitchell? How did he get a title shot for the WW title by being unranked? That's your logic.... or attempt at logic.  I know why he was, but I doubt you get it.

Here's the thing, since he only lost to another top ranked 147 in MP, his ranking didn't drop too significantly. Do you understand how that works?

He also defeated JMM, who did get ranked at WW after KOing MP. You're so short sighted you can barely see past your girly eyelashes for the forrest.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> You said that Ray Leonard did not beat Hagler. Thing is, he kind of did. Like, the footage shows he did. Boxrec says he did. This book I have next to my bed entitled 'The Four Kings' also said that he did. I'm liable to believe all of the footage and literature available to me instead of believing the word of a 19 year old kid. I hope you don't take offense to any of this, it's just common sense my friend. Common.
> 
> I have no issues citing great posters. You're undeniably one of them, Hoi. But I don't like how you pull up old quotes from likes Flea Man as a rebuttal to any comments I may have made. The insinuation is that he's beyond reproach. "Well look, Flea said this, so you couldn't possibly be right". Flea is a knowledgeable boxing fan but not infallible. He once claimed that a 130lbs MMA fighter could choke out Anthony Joshua in a street fight. He once told me that he thought Darchinyan would beat Donaire in a rematch. He's also responsible for some of the forum's very best posts. I try not to put any poster on a pedestal whereas I think you may be guilty of it brah.


It was always 115-113 SRL for me. I love Four Kings, especially for how brutally it dispels the myth that Leonard "handpicked" Duran over Cuevas for his June 1980 welterweight title defence. Yes, that sounds so fucking stupid, right. Well, I've seen it said numerous times.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Don't tempt me, I'm on a diet and I need MSG in my life. Starting to get the shakes
> 
> BTW, Jedi Mind Tricks, Immortal Technique are coming to Denver on the 14th. You make it up here I'll smoke you down.


Sorry.  No cheat meals at all? Shit, it isn't that bad. You only live once.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> It was always 115-113 SRL for me. I love Four Kings, especially for how brutally it dispels the myth that Leonard "handpicked" Duran over Cuevas for his June 1980 welterweight title defence. Yes, that sounds so fucking stupid, right. Well, I've seen it said numerous times.


I was going to like this post because, well, I like it, but then I stopped myself because I realised you're getting dangerously close to overtaking my numbers. No more likes for you. Even if you were to dedicate a thread to Gerry 'Slicker than Toney' Penalosa tomorrow afternoon, you get no like. No likely.

I'm only being half serious with Tommy G. It's perfectly plausible that someone could score the fight in favour of Marvin but I don't like how history has remembered it to be a really, really controversial decision. It was a super close fight that could have probably gone either way depending on your scoring criteria, but it's not a robbery or anything remotely close to that. Chavez-Whitaker -- now that's a robbery.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Leave the boxing talk to the rest of us.


Chill, Adele.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Chill, Adele.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> You said that Ray Leonard did not beat Hagler. Thing is, he kind of did. Like, the footage shows he did. Boxrec says he did. This book I have next to my bed entitled 'The Four Kings' also said that he did. I'm liable to believe all of the footage and literature available to me instead of believing the word of a 19 year old kid. I hope you don't take offense to any of this, it's just common sense my friend. Common..


Did Jose Luiz Ramirez beat Pernell Whitaker?

No

did Shannon Briggs beat Foreman?

No

Did Tito beat DLH

No

I could give a fuck about what boxrec says. Hagler won.



MichiganWarrior said:


> Why are they top welters. Explain that to me right now. Explain how Bradley is a top Welter when the only welterweight he's beaten in the top 10 is Jesse Vargas and he couldn't even look good doing that.
> 
> Go on. Tell me why I should rate Bradley for beating Alexander and Peterson 70 years ago


Well I wasn't talking about alexander or peterson since thats at 140. Bradley beat provodnikov officially beat pacquiao beat marquez who was still a great fighter beat vargas beat chaves and is easily the best welter barring pac or floyd. head to head he would have a good shot to beat bradley, thurman or spence IMO. i get that you dont like packy but yeah all 3 of those guys are top welters (not marquz anymore because retirement)


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Did Jose Luiz Ramirez beat Pernell Whitaker?
> 
> No
> 
> ...


It's alarming that you would draw any comparisons at all between Whitaker-Ramirez and Leonard-Hagler.

Just out of curiosity, how did you score Leonard-Hagler?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> It's alarming that you would draw any comparisons at all between Whitaker-Ramirez and Leonard-Hagler.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how did you score Leonard-Hagler?


The comparison is that they are both wrong decisions. That's about where it ends.

I scored it 115-113 for Mahvin. Leonard's bullshit shoeshine flurries don't count more than Hagler's stronger shots.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> The comparison is that they are both wrong decisions. That's about where it ends.
> 
> I scored it 115-113 for Mahvin. Leonard's bullshit shoeshine flurries don't count more than Hagler's stronger shots.


So you had Hagler by a single round? The way you've been speaking you would have thought Ray was knocked out.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> So you had Hagler by a single round? The way you've been speaking you would have thought Ray was knocked out.


and? Hagler won. I don't care about the scoring margin


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> and? Hagler won. I don't care about the scoring margin


You view Leonard-Hagler as a robbery?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I was going to like this post because, well, I like it, but then I stopped myself because I realised you're getting dangerously close to overtaking my numbers. No more likes for you. Even if you were to dedicate a thread to Gerry 'Slicker than Toney' Penalosa tomorrow afternoon, you get no like. No likely.
> 
> I'm only being half serious with Tommy G. It's perfectly plausible that someone could score the fight in favour of Marvin but I don't like how history has remembered it to be a really, really controversial decision. It was a super close fight that could have probably gone either way depending on your scoring criteria, but it's not a robbery or anything remotely close to that. Chavez-Whitaker -- now that's a robbery.


Hadn't even noticed about the likes. :lol: You bastard. :ibutt I have to of liked at least as many of yours.

The way it's remembered is a big irritation, but the circumstances of it as well. So ridiculously one-sided. You'd almost think Ray wasn't dropped on his arse in his only fight in five years leading up to it, that he'd been a life long middleweight, that Hagler wasn't considered the best practitioner in the sport and expected to bulldoze him, that certain stipulations weren't also in effect for the likes of Hearns and Mugabi. It's just endless bullshit in feeble attempts at detraction.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hadn't even noticed about the likes. :lol: You bastard. :ibutt I have to of liked at least as many of yours.
> 
> The way it's remembered is a big irritation, but the circumstances of it as well. So ridiculously one-sided. You'd almost think Ray wasn't dropped on his arse in his only fight in five years leading up to it, that he'd been a life long middleweight, that Hagler wasn't considered the best practitioner in the sport and expected to bulldoze him, that certain stipulations weren't also in effect for the likes of Hearns and Mugabi. It's just endless bullshit in feeble attempts at detraction.


This post was too good not to like. You understand everything, my man. I feel exactly the same way about the revisionist history designed to discredit Ray's achievement. What always bothered me the most was that it tended to be otherwise really intelligent posters that would perpetuate the bullshit. Very irritating.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> You view Leonard-Hagler as a robbery?


not really ,still a bad decision though


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> This post was too good not to like. You understand everything, my man. I feel exactly the same way about the revisionist history designed to discredit Ray's achievement. What always bothered me the most was that it tended to be otherwise really intelligent posters that would perpetuate the bullshit. Very irritating.


Yes, utterly unbecoming. You seemed like the only guy to speak any sense whatsoever about it. May think I'm exaggerating what I said in the Confessions thread but I remember it too well. There was absolute massive bias against Ray Leonard in the Classic. Massive. It was about the entirety of his career as well, not just the Hagler fight. Right pissed me off, dude. Legitimately upset me.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yes, utterly unbecoming. You seemed like the only guy to speak any sense whatsoever about it. May think I'm exaggerating what I said in the Confessions thread but I remember it too well. There was absolute massive bias against Ray Leonard in the Classic. Massive. It was about the entirety of his career as well, not just the Hagler fight. Right pissed me off, dude. Legitimately upset me.


It still goes on today, buddy. I did a bit of posting over there during the upgrade and The Classic really hasn't changed at all since the old days. One of the most outrageous statements I ever heard said there was that Dooran's losing performance over Hagler was better and ranks higher than Ray's winning performance.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> It still goes on today, buddy. I did a bit of posting over there during the upgrade and The Classic really hasn't changed at all since the old days. One of the most outrageous statements I ever heard said there was that Dooran's losing performance over Hagler was better and ranks higher than Ray's winning performance.


@Bogotazo :hey

I'm pretty sure he doesn't take it that far. God, I can never shake the memory of Leonard's "lucky bullshit stoppage" against Benitez either. I had the motherfucker up by about four or five frames myself so, uh...


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Sorry, I listened to Roger Mayweather's breakdown of Chavez/Floyd again earlier today.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Sorry, I listened to Roger Mayweather's breakdown of Chavez/Floyd again earlier today.


Roger was a decent operator during his day, winning the odd title and out-boxing Chavez for a few rounds, but his legacy will be his fight analysis. As a fighter he was hard-hitting but fragile; as an analyst there are no weaknesses -- articulate, concise, insightful and always manages, somehow, to accuse someone of not knowing "shit 'bout baxin''. I can't believe the likes of Bobby Czyz and the unintelligible Ray Leonard were given commentary jobs for HBO and Showtime but there were no offers for Roger Mayweather. Inexplicable.

And in regards to Leonard-Benitez, I must admit that I'm in the minority when I say that the fight wasn't really close. History again seems to have done Ray a disservice in remembering this as being some kind of close chess match, with Ray struggling to figure out the intelligent and elusive Benitez, but I thought Ray asserted dominance pretty early on with his jab. I could find no more than 3 or 4 rounds for Benitez, and that is being very generous indeed. The stoppage was suspect but the result was a foregone conclusion -- Benitez was bettered everywhere.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Did Jose Luiz Ramirez beat Pernell Whitaker?
> 
> No
> 
> ...


:rolleyes

None of the fighters you listed are ranked at welterweight besides Vargas who is ranked at 7. It's not about not liking Pacquiao it's about fighters proving their worth in the ring.

Try again. This time with feeling


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Roger was a decent operator during his day, winning the odd title and out-boxing Chavez for a few rounds, but his legacy will be his fight analysis. As a fighter he was hard-hitting but fragile; as an analyst there are no weaknesses -- articulate, concise, insightful and always manages, somehow, to accuse someone of not knowing "shit 'bout baxin''. I can't believe the likes of Bobby Czyz and the unintelligible Ray Leonard were given commentary jobs for HBO and Showtime but there were no offers for Roger Mayweather. Inexplicable.
> 
> And in regards to Leonard-Benitez, I must admit that I'm in the minority when I say that the fight wasn't really close. History again seems to have done Ray a disservice in remembering this as being some kind of close chess match, with Ray struggling to figure out the intelligent and elusive Benitez, but I thought Ray asserted dominance pretty early on with his jab. I could find no more than 3 or 4 rounds for Benitez, and that is being very generous indeed. The stoppage was suspect but the result was a foregone conclusion -- Benitez was bettered everywhere.


Well, I'd have to say I agree with you there although it's been absolute ages since I put that one on. I also have an incredible amount of admiration for Wilfred Benitez's enormous talent - there were probably only a mere handful that ever possessed such prodigious natural ability. He went up against some of the most prolific offensive arsenals the sport has ever seen and made them all look downright foolish at times even in some losing efforts with his head and upper body movement. That's an insanely tough era to come up in, but he showed his mettle.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> This post was too good not to like. You understand everything, my man. I feel exactly the same way about the revisionist history designed to discredit Ray's achievement. What always bothered me the most was that it tended to be otherwise really intelligent posters that would perpetuate the bullshit. Very irritating.


This post was just too cruel to ignore.
No one on this whole forum has made a bigger noise than me in this forum about this fight,yet so far I don't see my name mentioned.

I won't lie mate.This hurts.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Bogotazo :hey
> 
> I'm pretty sure he doesn't take it that far. God, I can never shake the memory of Leonard's "lucky bullshit stoppage" against Benitez either. I had the motherfucker up by about four or five frames myself so, uh...


Oh shit! lol


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> This post was just too cruel to ignore.
> No one on this whole forum has made a bigger noise than me in this forum about this fight,yet so far I don't see my name mentioned.
> 
> I won't lie mate.This hurts.


Check your fucking mentions! :rofl I've been trying like hell to pull you into these conversations.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> and? Hagler won. I don't care about the scoring margin


No he didn't.It wasn't a robbery and we've been through this Tommy.
Hagler didn't win.If you think he did win then you're saying it's a robbery.
Like I've said many times,to say Hagler won means you give Ray less than 2 of the last 8 rounds,and that just isn't true.
Anyone who says Ray didn't win the first four rounds is just plain lying,and anyone who says he won one of the last eight rounds is watching through one of those stupid eye masks that some people wear in bed.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Check your fucking mentions! :rofl I've been trying like hell to pull you into these conversations.


I'm looking and only see one from you(which I'm grateful for) but seem to have reached the start of the subject.
I'm off to check my alerts.:good


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I'm looking and only see one from you(which I'm grateful for) but seem to have reached the start of the subject.
> I'm off to check my alerts.:good


Too worried about trannies and shit. Clear your head, mate. There's been some damn good stuff in here lately. Pedderrs has almost single handedly sparked my interest in the sport again.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Too worried about trannies and shit. Clear your head, mate. There's been some damn good stuff in here lately. Pedderrs has almost single handedly sparked my interest in the sport again.


He was the first guy EVER to side with me in a debate and my first friend request.Was my first real ally on the old dump.
Then he abandoned me for ages which brought me together with you,and now here we all are.Alphas who can talk with no fear of being accused of gay lording it up,although I thought I did see Pedders talking about finding blokes attractive the other day,but apologies if I'm wrong.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Check your fucking mentions! :rofl I've been trying like hell to pull you into these conversations.


I only see one.:conf


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Heh...


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I only see one.:conf


That's blasphemous.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> So you had Hagler by a single round? The way you've been speaking you would have thought Ray was knocked out.


Don't waste your time on this mate.Tommy's one of the good guys on here but on this subject he's Stevie Wonder'd out his box.
I shouldn't really have quoted Tommy because he and I have done this to death and we eventually agreed that we would drop it on the understanding that Tommy wouldn't have to publicly admit I'm right.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Don't waste your time on this mate.Tommy's one of the good guys on here but on this subject he's Stevie Wonder'd out his box.
> I shouldn't really have quoted Tommy because he and I have done this to death and we eventually agreed that we would drop it on the understanding that Tommy wouldn't have to publicly admit I'm right.


Location: Boston, MA


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's blasphemous.


Sorry,I don't even remember what thread this is.
I just read back to where it became about Ray beating Marvin and I only see one.I'll gladly apologise if I'm wrong.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Location: Boston, MA


Yep.I know.
Younger version of Goat who forgets that I'm anything but anti-Boston for the most part.
But,I still like Tommy.He just seems to go a little Chuck McGill on this one.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Missed out on some pages there :lol: Ray won. Get over it.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Missed out on some pages there :lol: Ray won. Get over it.


Hagler is manlier.

Never.

War.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Crying about a result is not manly.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Crying about a result is not manly.


Crying along with Hagler is as manly as it gets.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Hagler is manlier.
> 
> Never.
> 
> War.


Legally changed his name to "Marvelous" bcause he couldn't deal with Sugar.

Had to leave USA and embrace the Latin lifestyle of Italian icecream and shaving his legs because he couldn't handle the decision.

Only time he went up in weight was against his wife

"Manlier"
Abraham's average sexual experience is manlier than him


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

dyna said:


> Legally changed his name to "Marvelous" bcause he couldn't deal with Sugar.
> 
> Had to leave USA and embrace the Latin lifestyle of Italian icecream and shaving his legs because he couldn't handle the decision.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Hell Austin Trouts dominating win over Cotto is better than any victory in Bradley's career alone including an old Marquez.
> 
> Marquez is a p4p great who has Pacquiao's number, let's not go making the case that he is some welterweight monster when he is clearly not as well. If Marquez fights Cotto I got Cotton going away @Bogotazo


So not only are you saying Old JMM>Cotto you are now also saying Trout>Old JMM/Alexander/Peterson & Prov etc too? No arguing with that LOL

If Marquez fights Cotto LOL Genius. You lost the moment you compared Bradley to someone who's top 5 has Kirkland & Angulo in it! LOL Old JMM>Cotto. Deal with it! Lamont Peterson/Alexander> Most of Canelo's resume.

Old fat Rios & Grandpa Casa? Rios>Kirkland (Kirkland is a scrub who hadn't fought in 2 years. Nor has he fought since. Since 2011 he has had 3 fights! Old. Kirkland has never beaten anyone & hasn't ever won a world title ever! Rios was coming off wins over Chavez & Alvarado. Exactly who has Kirkland beaten or what has he ever done?

Oh & if Rios is old & fat at 28 & as a WW what does that make a LMW Oscar, WW Hatton, WW Guerrero, LMW Cotto & WW JMM?

Bradley>Canelo. More depth, better accomplishments. Better overall win set. Don't cry..

Sunshine bus for MichiganWarrior Folks LOL


----------



## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> -Marco Antonio Barrera 03
> *Manny Pacquiao 15*


Ya & Héctor Camacho's wins over SRL & Duran are equal to prime Duran beating SRL or prime SRL beating Hearns LOL

Judah>Morales? You are kidding right?

Corrales>JMM? Again you are kidding right?

Who had they beat?

Cottos wins are even? Ya & Canelo's wins & Floyds are equal too LOL Has he ever deteriorated old Miguel..

Is this guy for real?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> :rolleyes
> 
> None of the fighters you listed are ranked at welterweight besides Vargas who is ranked at 7. It's not about not liking Pacquiao it's about fighters proving their worth in the ring.
> 
> Try again. This time with feeling


name me 5 welters with better resumes than Pac & Bradley? You can't. Hence why they are both ranked highly.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> name me 5 welters with better resumes than Pac & Bradley? You can't. Hence why they are both ranked highly.


Except they aren't ranked high at welter. Bradley is ranked number 5 and Pacquiao isn't on the list

What do you have a personal list I should care about? Here's a hint I don't care


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> So not only are you saying Old JMM>Cotto you are now also saying Trout>Old JMM/Alexander/Peterson & Prov etc ,


Cotto is a much better fighter at 154lbs than an old Marquez at 147. Yes.

Tell me who will win should they fight in the fall?

,,


> If Marquez fights Cotto LOL Genius. You lost the moment you compared Bradley to someone who's top 5 has Kirkland & Angulo in it! LOL Old JMM>Cotto. Deal with it! Lamont Peterson/Alexander> Most of Canelo's resume.


Getting pissy already pactard? Lamont Peterson and Alexander aren't as good as Lara or Cotto. Just stop



> Rios was coming off wins over Chavez & Alvarado.


Everyone in the Denver area knows Alvarado was struggling with alcoholism and wasn't training for that fight. I said as much before the fight. About as meaningless a victory as you could find

Rios was down on tow judges scorecards in the 10th before the DQ. Chaves who has beaten nobody in his career and was kod by Thurman in 10

Comparatively both Kirkland and Angulo were fully motivated. Kirkland had t lost since 2011 and Angulo coming off probably the best performance anyone has had against Lara his entire career. Lara ain't no Mike Alvarado



> Oh & if Rios is old & fat at 28 & as a WW what does that make a LMW Oscar, WW Hatton, WW Guerrero, LMW Cotto & WW JMM?


Fighters age differently dummy and looking at their resume each on had much better wins at their respective weight classes than an alcoholic Alvarado and DQ win over Diego Chavez. Rios should've retired a long time ago given his style and inability to make weight. Ala featherfisted Bradley who can't crack an egg banging him out when Rios during his prime had one of the best chins in boxing.



> Bradley>Canelo. More depth, better accomplishments. Better overall win set. Don't cry..


No. Unless by accomplishments you mean losing to Pacquiao 3 times, nearly dying vs average Provodnikov, almost getting banged out by 10 ko Jesse Vargas and barely decisioning and old Marquez as accomplishments.

Canelo is having the much better career.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Except they aren't ranked high at welter. Bradley is ranked number 5 and Pacquiao isn't on the list
> 
> What do you have a personal list I should care about? Here's a hint I don't care


That's one magazine having him at 5. Others have him higher. Anyway, our rankings are just as valid, sometimes more so, than the likes of Ring


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Floyd really should treat MichiganWarrior to a day out or something. Give him a few thousand dollars to go spend at the mall and some signed memorabilia. Something! This kid has been vehemently defending him on the internet for over a decade now. What happened to 'give and take'?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> Ya & Héctor Camacho's wins over SRL & Duran are equal to prime Duran beating SRL or prime SRL beating Hearns LOL


The Pacquiao that Mayweather beat was every bit the fighter the Barrera that Pacquiao beat



> Judah>Morales? You are kidding right?


I thought you were joking about naming a fat shot at the weight Morales. So I listed a Mayweather win that was just as average. Oh you weren't joking about beating a weight drained over the hill Morales?

Well uh-huh... this is awkward



> Corrales>JMM? Again you are kidding right?


Corrales was a monster at JMW and Pacquiao never really beat Marquez. Probably should've lost all 4 fights.



> Who had they beat?


Lol. Going a little too far back for your boxing knowledge eh Pactard?



> Cottos wins are even?


Pac drained Cotto. Mayweather fought Cotton at 154 where he was more comfortable. The Pac that Cotto fought was coming off a brutal beatdown by Margarito and a gift vs Clottey. The Mayweather that Cotto fought was coming off 3 straight ko wins.

So yeah, even like I said Pactard.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> That's one magazine having him at 5. Others have him higher. Anyway, our rankings are just as valid, sometimes more so, than the likes of Ring


Except this time Ring is obviously the smart one considering Bradley hasn't beat a decent Welter arguably ever. In fact I would throw Bradley out the rankings and move Pacquiao into 5th.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

You can't debate Boxing with someone who maintains that Pacquiao has never beaten JMM. You can't debate boxing, or anything, with a guy who thinks Corrales was a junior middleweight.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Floyd really should treat MichiganWarrior to a day out or something. Give him a few thousand dollars to go spend at the mall and some signed memorabilia. Something! This kid has been vehemently defending him on the internet for over a decade now. What happened to 'give and take'?


Mayweather's resume is better than Pacquiao's thems the facts. Maybe if a Pacquiao hadn't decided to have 3 fights against Tim Bradley and fought Brook or Thurman he'd have am argument


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Cotto is a much better fighter at 154lbs than an old Marquez at 147. Yes.
> 
> Tell me who will win should they fight in the fall?
> 
> ...


Tell me, who did Cotto beat to have you rate him so highly at 154? Márquez had his best win at 147. You say he has a hex over Pacquiao, yet it was only at welterweight that he could decidedly beat him. Pacquiao was not so far past his prime that it makes it an issue here


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Mayweather's resume is better than Pacquiao's thems the facts. Maybe if a Pacquiao hadn't decided to have 3 fights against Tim Bradley and fought Brook or Thurman he'd have am argument


Yeah, but then Brook would have been an untested nobody living off a singular win over Porter, who was overrated, and Thurman would be much the same -- a relatively untested fighter whose best win is over Robert Guerrero.

You wouldn't concede any ground to "Pactards" even if Manny jumped up and knocked out Tyson Fury, MW. I've been around long enough to know your agenda buddy.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Tell me, who did Cotto beat to have you rate him so highly at 154? Márquez had his best win at 147. You say he has a hex over Pacquiao, yet it was only at welterweight that he could decidedly beat him. Pacquiao was not so far past his prime that it makes it an issue here


I don't rate Marquez at Welterweight. I think the one who kod Pacquiao loses to Thurman, Brook, Spence, maybe even Khan and Garcia. Marquez had Pacquiao figured out. We've seen it before in history where a highly rated atg has a foil aka Ali vs Norton or Pep Saddler.

Marquez and Pac could fight at middleweight and it would look the same.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> I don't rate Marquez at Welterweight. I think the one who kod Pacquiao loses to Thurman, Brook, Spence, maybe even Khan and Garcia. Marquez had Pacquiao figured out. *We've seen it before in history where a highly rated atg has a foil aka Ali vs Norton or Pep Saddler.*
> 
> Marquez and Pac could fight at middleweight and it would look the same.


That's true...


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Yeah, but then Brook would have been an untested nobody living off a singular win over Porter, who was overrated, and Thurman would be much the same -- a relatively untested fighter whose best win is over Robert Guerrero.


No. It would be seen as taking on two strong young big welters ranked in the top 5 of the ring. Ala better than fighting a meaningless rubber match with Tim Bradley.



> You wouldn't concede any ground to "Pactards" even if Manny jumped up and knocked out Tyson Fury, MW. I've been around long enough to know your agenda buddy.


I'll concede that Pacquiao was a tougher fight for Floyd than Andre Berto if that makes you feel better


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> I don't rate Marquez at Welterweight. I think the one who kod Pacquiao loses to Thurman, Brook, Spence, maybe even Khan and Garcia. Marquez had Pacquiao figured out. We've seen it before in history where a highly rated atg has a foil aka Ali vs Norton or Pep Saddler.
> 
> Marquez and Pac could fight at middleweight and it would look the same.


Then why didn't he beat Pacquiao decisively below welterweight? Must have had something about him at the weight. You seem to rate him enough to rate Mayweather's win over him anyway


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> No. It would be seen as taking on two strong young big welters ranked in the top 5 of the ring. Ala better than fighting a meaningless rubber match with Tim Bradley.
> 
> I'll concede that Pacquiao was a tougher fight for Floyd than Andre Berto if that makes you feel better


That wouldn't be your tone at all, buddy. You'd be playing down the wins just as you have played down every single thing Manny has ever achieved in a three decade career in this thread. You should read back some of your posts dude -- you can't possibly be under the impression that you're coming across as measured. It's not to say that I don't think Floyd's resume compares favourably to Manny's, I think it's a close run thing personally, but you've said some silly things just to strengthen your position. MAB was prime in 03. He was on the best winning streak of his career and continued to perform expertly even after losing to Pacquiao. And JMM did lose to Pacquiao, at least once.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> No. It would be seen as taking on two strong young big welters ranked in the top 5 of the ring. Ala better than fighting a meaningless rubber match with Tim Bradley.
> 
> I'll concede that Pacquiao was a tougher fight for Floyd than Andre Berto if that makes you feel better


Has any other welterweight proven that he's a level above Bradley? The only reason people were annoyed at the third fight was because we'd seen those two twice before, not because he is a shit fighter


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> That wouldn't be your tone at all, buddy. You'd be playing down the wins just as you have played down every single thing Manny has ever achieved in a three decade career in this thread. You should read back some of your posts dude -- you can't possibly be under the impression that you're coming across as measured. It's not to say that I don't think Floyd's resume compares favourably to Manny's, I think it's a close run thing personally, but you've said some silly things just to strengthen your position. MAB was prime in 03. He was on the best winning streak of his career and continued to perform expertly even after losing to Pacquiao. And JMM did lose to Pacquiao, at least once.


How did you score the first two fights?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Eoghan said:


> How did you score the first two fights?


I haven't seen either fight for awhile, but I think I had Pacquiao winning the first and losing the second. They were both very close though.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Then why didn't he beat Pacquiao decisively below welterweight? Must have had something about him at the weight. You seem to rate him enough to rate Mayweather's win over him anyway


Marquez had Pacquiao completely figured out. As to why he bulked up for the 4th fight while sacrificing his speed and agility. He knew he could land the sane punches on Pacquiao he'd been landing in everyone of there fights this time knowing hed be robbed again he decided to end it

Besides take out the 3 early round knockdowns and Marquez beats Pacquiao pretty handedly in their first fight. Without that people forget that's a more lopsided fight than 3

I rate Mayweather's win only because nobody would beat Marquez like that in this day and age ever. A complete domination over a living ATG regardless of weight must be rated


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Has any other welterweight proven that he's a level above Bradley? The only reason people were annoyed at the third fight was because we'd seen those two twice before, not because he is a shit fighter


Thurman, Garcia and Porter have fought much better opposition at welter than Tim Bradley. Brook easily has the singular best win.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Besides take out the 3 early round knockdowns and Marquez beats Pacquiao pretty handedly in their first fight. Without that people forget that's a more lopsided fight than 3


Pacquiao inflicted the most lopsided round in JMM's entire career. You can't wipe that from history in order to prove your points, Michigan. :lol:



> I rate Mayweather's win only because nobody would beat Marquez like that in this day and age ever. A complete domination over a living ATG regardless of weight must be rated


Just how highly do you rate that win?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> That wouldn't be your tone at all, buddy. You'd be playing down the wins just as you have played down every single thing Manny has ever achieved in a three decade career in this thread. You should read back some of your posts dude -- you can't possibly be under the impression that you're coming across as measured. It's not to say that I don't think Floyd's resume compares favourably to Manny's, I think it's a close run thing personally, but you've said some silly things just to strengthen your position. MAB was prime in 03. He was on the best winning streak of his career and continued to perform expertly even after losing to Pacquiao. And JMM did lose to Pacquiao, at least once.


You're over exaggerating. The poster nit picked Floyd's resume so I nit picked Manny's. However over the last 5 or so years Floyd's been blowing Manny out if the water resume wise and Manny has nobody to blame but himself.

Also I'm not the only one who thinks MAB wasn't prime in 03. It's not a popular opinion but it's mine. A stellar 60 fight career coming off 2 wars. He looked atrocious vs Pacquiao


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Pacquiao inflicted the most lopsided round in JMM's entire career. You can't wipe that from history in order to prove your points, Michigan. :lol:


Meh. He then went on to be nearly completely dominated.



> Just how highly do you rate that win?


In Floyd's top 10.[/quote]


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> You're over exaggerating. The poster nit picked Floyd's resume so I nit picked Manny's. However over the last 5 or so years Floyd's been blowing Manny out if the water resume wise and Manny has nobody to blame but himself.
> 
> Also I'm not the only one who thinks MAB wasn't prime in 03. It's not a popular opinion but it's mine. A stellar 60 fight career coming off 2 wars. He looked atrocious vs Pacquiao


MAB wasn't coming off two wars. Why do you continue to say this? The last truly difficult and taxing fight he had prior to fighting Pacquiao would have been in his first fight with Morales, and that was three years prior in 00. Since then, he had blown away all of his opponents, outboxed Hamed comfortably, sustained very little damage at all in a rematch against Morales and would go on to make Tapia and Kelley look like the shopworn fighters they were. MAB was not coming off two wars. He should have been fresh as a daisy for Manny.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Marquez had Pacquiao completely figured out. As to why he bulked up for the 4th fight while sacrificing his speed and agility. He knew he could land the sane punches on Pacquiao he'd been landing in everyone of there fights this time knowing hed be robbed again he decided to end it
> 
> Besides take out the 3 early round knockdowns and Marquez beats Pacquiao pretty handedly in their first fight. Without that people forget that's a more lopsided fight than 3
> 
> I rate Mayweather's win only because nobody would beat Marquez like that in this day and age ever. A complete domination over a living ATG regardless of weight must be rated


3 was still a more decisive 'win' than either 1 or 2. And you can't just ignore the knockdowns, they happened for a reason. Márquez isn't exactly a defensive genius, he gets knocked down a fair bit at any weight. In any case, without the knockdowns, and it is roughly the same, I had 3 116-112, and 1 being razor-close. And Márquez is an ATG for his legacy throughout his whole career (he's a 'borderline' ATG if there is such a thing), part of which was at welterweight. Mayweather's win over him wouldn't look as good if he didn't accomplish what he did in the fights afterwards


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Thurman, Garcia and Porter have fought much better opposition at welter than Tim Bradley. Brook easily has the singular best win.


Of course, I should have known you'd be the one to rate Guerrero that highly. It's like the time he magically appeared in Ring's P4P top 10, just in time to face Mayweather


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Of course, I should have known you'd be the one to rate Guerrero that highly. It's like the time he magically appeared in Ring's P4P top 10, just in time to face Mayweather


I rate Guerrero higher than shot Rios sure. You got me. Dead to rights. What's my sentence?


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> I don't rate Marquez at Welterweight. I think the one who kod Pacquiao loses to Thurman, Brook, Spence, maybe even Khan and Garcia. Marquez had Pacquiao figured out. We've seen it before in history where a highly rated atg has a foil aka Ali vs Norton or Pep Saddler.
> 
> Marquez and Pac could fight at middleweight and it would look the same.


It's one thing to have a stylistic advantage over at ATG, another to actually be good enough to get the win


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> 3 was still a more decisive 'win' than either 1 or 2. And you can't just ignore the knockdowns, they happened for a reason. Márquez isn't exactly a defensive genius, he gets knocked down a fair bit at any weight. In any case, without the knockdowns, and it is roughly the same, I had 3 116-112, and 1 being razor-close. And Márquez is an ATG for his legacy throughout his whole career (he's a 'borderline' ATG if there is such a thing), part of which was at welterweight. Mayweather's win over him wouldn't look as good if he didn't accomplish what he did in the fights afterwards


OK fine you win. Marquez was a great welterweight.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> It's one thing to have a stylistic advantage over at ATG, another to actually be good enough to get the win


Strange then he wasn't good enough to do the same to Bradley.

Hold on. Is Bradley an ATG too? I think we just cracked the code.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> I rate Guerrero higher than shot Rios sure. You got me. Dead to rights. What's my sentence?


He's no way better than Márquez. Yes, that was a while back, but it's still valid. Likewise Bradley has decent, not earth-shattering wins over the likes of Vargas (who looked pretty decent last time out), and Chaves that a win over Guerrero is not enough to put Thurman and Garcia above Bradley for sure


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> He's no way better than Márquez. Yes, that was a while back, but it's still valid. Likewise Bradley has decent, not earth-shattering wins over the likes of Vargas (who looked pretty decent last time out), and Chaves that a win over Guerrero is not enough to put Thurman and Garcia above Bradley for sure


Who said Guerrero was the only one to put them over Bradley
Here let me help you. Go on boxrec, Throw in Thurman and Porter, review their welterweight careers, then do the same from Bradley, then get back to me with a proper argument


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Eoghan said:


> He's no way better than Márquez. Yes, that was a while back, but it's still valid. Likewise Bradley has decent, not earth-shattering wins over the likes of Vargas (who looked pretty decent last time out), and Chaves that a win over Guerrero is not enough to put Thurman and Garcia above Bradley for sure


MW isn't acknowledging JMM as a win for Pacquiao.

He isn't acknowledging my last post in regards to MAB's physical state in 03 either.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Man I never realized beating a welterweight Marquez was such a career defining win. 

Tim Bradley has been granted top welterweight status in perpetuity for that amazing win. 


No wonder Top Rank is still in business with you saps running around lol


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## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> He's no way better than Márquez. Yes, that was a while back, but it's still valid. Likewise Bradley has decent, not earth-shattering wins over the likes of Vargas (who looked pretty decent last time out), and Chaves that a win over Guerrero is not enough to put Thurman and Garcia above Bradley for sure


He drew with Chaves and has ducked him ever since.


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## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> The Pacquiao that Mayweather beat was every bit the fighter the Barrera that Pacquiao beat.


Ya and the Mosley Floyd beat was every bit the fighter who beat Oscar! Floyds win over Mosley= Mosleys over Oscar! LOL This guys hilarious.. Keep it up you're a funny guy! In fact I'll help you out.. Calzaghes win over Hopkins=Hopkins win over Tito too! Camachos win over SRL=SRL over Hearns! The pac that Floyd beat was 36 and a WW! Coming off two losses (one devastating) this guys prime was FW/SFW! Only a twat would compare him to an 03 Barrera! News for you.. Floyd has never beaten an ATG at there prime weight in or near there prime! Not the calibre of Barrera & JMM anyway! Hernandez was the closest he came and he was probably past it and not on there level. Only a twat would argue a former flyweight was draining a natural WW too! Draining Cotto Hahahaha So who had Corrales beat when he fought Floyd? So who has Kirkland beat or what belts has he won?

Corrales>JMM Hahahahaha

Like i said two wins over peak or near peak Barrera, JMM, Morales>Corrales, Castillo, Hernandez. Bradley>Canelo too. Kirkland Hahaha Latter career Floyd, peak years Pac. Get over it.. It's not Pacs fault Floyd had to weight for everyone to get old before he fought them LMAO


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## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Don't worry MW.. I'll get around to the other reply too when i have sum more free time. Bloated Rios & cites WW Hatton, Guerrero, LMW Oscar & Cotto, thats cracked me right up lol

Exactly WHO had Corrales beat btw?​


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Who said Guerrero was the only one to put them over Bradley
> Here let me help you. Go on boxrec, Throw in Thurman and Porter, review their welterweight careers, then do the same from Bradley, then get back to me with a proper argument


Ok then, a shot Malignaggi and a loss on most people's cards to Peterson isn't the best back up to a Guerrero who had lost to Aaron Martínez. Likewise Thurman doesn't have a tremendously strong ledger. Granted, Brook has a far better recent win, and Porter has a strong case too to be ahead of Bradley, but that Márquez win, plus the decent enough wins he's been picking up since, are enough that to have Bradley at 5 is harsh. If Andre Ward deserves to be high up P4P, Bradley deserves to he highly ranked at welterweight


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Strange then he wasn't good enough to do the same to Bradley.
> 
> Hold on. Is Bradley an ATG too? I think we just cracked the code.


One win against a past-prime, but still P4P fighter is not enough to be ATG. There are those that think that Bradley is a future HoFer though. Márquez is an ATG for his Pacquiao performances, as well as being consistently one of the top fighters in the world over many years, from featherweigh up to welterweight.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> OK fine you win. Marquez was a great welterweight.


Never said that. In fact I said the opposite, his greatness depends on his all-round career. It appears you want to be Floyd Mayweather so much you've decided to pick up his reading skills. Márquez was a good welter, and very good/great at featherweight through to lightweight


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> Ya and the Mosley Floyd beat was every bit the fighter who beat Oscar! Floyds win over Mosley= Mosleys over Oscar! LOL This guys hilarious.. Keep it up you're a funny guy! In fact I'll help you out.. Calzaghes win over Hopkins=Hopkins win over Tito too! Camachos win over SRL=SRL over Hearns! The pac that Floyd beat was 36 and a WW! Coming off two losses (one devastating) this guys prime was FW/SFW! Only a twat would compare him to an 03 Barrera! News for you.. Floyd has never beaten an ATG at there prime weight in or near there prime! Not the calibre of Barrera & JMM anyway! Hernandez was the closest he came and he was probably past it and not on there level. Only a twat would argue a former flyweight was draining a natural WW too! Draining Cotto Hahahaha So who had Corrales beat when he fought Floyd? So who has Kirkland beat or what belts has he won?
> 
> Corrales>JMM Hahahahaha
> 
> Like i said two wins over peak or near peak Barrera, JMM, Morales>Corrales, Castillo, Hernandez. Bradley>Canelo too. Kirkland Hahaha Latter career Floyd, peak years Pac. Get over it.. It's not Pacs fault Floyd had to weight for everyone to get old before he fought them LMAO


Well, the early stages were the last time we saw Mosley fight to a high level. And Pacquiao did prove himself a level above Barrera, as well as showing he had gas left in the tank in his last fight. The difference in resumes is not much


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Sebastien Loeb said:


> Don't worry MW.. I'll get around to the other reply too when i have sum more free time. Bloated Rios & cites WW Hatton, Guerrero, LMW Oscar & Cotto, thats cracked me right up lol
> 
> *Exactly WHO had Corrales beat btw?*​


Noob alert.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> *3 was still a more decisive 'win' than either 1 or 2*. And you can't just ignore the knockdowns, they happened for a reason. Márquez isn't exactly a defensive genius, he gets knocked down a fair bit at any weight. In any case, without the knockdowns, and it is roughly the same, I had 3 116-112, and 1 being razor-close. And Márquez is an ATG for his legacy throughout his whole career (he's a 'borderline' ATG if there is such a thing), part of which was at welterweight. Mayweather's win over him wouldn't look as good if he didn't accomplish what he did in the fights afterwards


What!!?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Noob alert.


Easy Turbo! Show some respect. Loeb is a fellow member of 'Team Tszyu'.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

turbotime said:


> What!!?


I mean for Márquez, I really made it ambiguous there! 1 and 2 were razor-thin, but 3 was clearly a Márquez win


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Ok then, a shot Malignaggi and a loss on most people's cards to Peterson


Yet you believe a shot fat Rios should grant Bradley top 3 p4p fighter status or places him ahead of Porter, Thurman, Garcia, ect. Oh wait his razor close decision win over Marquez 2 years ago. Or maybe his near death against Provodnikov. Or getting nearly kod by Jesse Vargas. Or managing a draw against Chaves. Fuck Malignaggi would blank Rios 12-0 at this point

Now you're calling him HOF caliber.

Pull yourself together son.


> . If Andre Ward deserves to be high up P4P, Bradley deserves to he highly ranked at welterweight


Ward is highly rated because he has lost a handful of rounds in his professional career, has dominated elite competition hell hasnt lost a bout since he was 12.

Bradley was getting pummeled around the ring by provodnikov. Even his wins he didn't exactly dazzle with his pugilism. So no there isn't a comparison.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Never said that. In fact I said the opposite, his greatness depends on his all-round career. It appears you want to be Floyd Mayweather so much you've decided to pick up his reading skills. Márquez was a good welter, and very good/great at featherweight through to lightweight


Besides koing Pacquiao which he had figured out. What makes Marquez a good welter? What Welters did he beat? Is this that fantasy realm like where Bradley's HOF?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Noob alert.


Pfft Corrales. Has nothing on a 180lb Morales


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Pfft Corrales. Has nothing on a 180lb Morales


Mayweather the underdog in that. RING magazine actually said "Floyd WHO?"


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather the underdog in that. RING magazine actually said "Floyd WHO?"


Maybe it was this kid writing the article.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Yet you believe a shot fat Rios should grant Bradley top 3 p4p fighter status or places him ahead of Porter, Thurman, Garcia, ect. Oh wait his razor close decision win over Marquez 2 years ago. Or maybe his near death against Provodnikov. Or getting nearly kod by Jesse Vargas. Or managing a draw against Chaves. Fuck Malignaggi would blank Rios 12-0 at this point
> 
> Now you're calling him HOF caliber.
> 
> ...


Never once have I mentioned Rios as a good win for Bradley. Neither did I say Bradley was P4P top 3, he's around the fringes of the top 10, as he's been for large chunks of the last 10 years. Vargas was a good win, he's a top 10 welterweight. You like your hypotheticals, don't you, what if Márquez didn't get knocked down 3 times, Bradley almost got stopped by Vargas. The fact is he didn't, and he won fairly clearly. A razor thin decision over Márquez is still far better than anything anyone else has achieved in the division. Bradley also should have got the win against Chaves, although he didn't look great in that fight. 
Ward may have only lost a handful of rounds in his career, but in the past 4 years, he holds wins over Sullivan Barrera, Paul Smith and Edwin Rodríguez. That's even worse than Golovkin's record in the past four years, those guys are nothing on a P4P level. To rank Ward P4P, you have to include his wins before that. On that logic, Bradley shits all over welterweight
Anyway, Vargas is not a nobody in the welterweight division like Smith is P4P


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Besides koing Pacquiao which he had figured out. What makes Marquez a good welter? What Welters did he beat? Is this that fantasy realm like where Bradley's HOF?


Right, so because stylistically the match-up favoured Márquez, that makes beating Pacquiao easy does it? If it were so easy, how come he had never clearly beat Pacquiao before welter?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Never once have I mentioned Rios as a good win for Bradley.


So what are these good wins you speak besides Marquez 2 years ago? You know the fight he barely edged against a guy who has beaten no real Welters?



> Neither did I say Bradley was P4P top 3, he's around the fringes of the top 10


Fringes of the top 10 for beating who again?


> Vargas was a good win,


Vargas? Vargas? You talking bout Vargas man. You ain't talking about Brook, Porter or Thurman. You talking bout Vargas @Hands of Iron


> . You like your hypotheticals, don't you, what if Márquez didn't get knocked down 3 times, Bradley almost got stopped by Vargas. The fact is he didn't, and he won fairly clearly


Vargas is the definition of average son. Just stop.


> A razor thin decision over Márquez is still far better than anything anyone else has achieved in the division.


Why? for his lightweight legacy lol? You realize Marquez would probably lose to Brook, Porter and Thurman don't you? That Bradley beating Marquez barely is not some huge accomplishment when Marquez is old and not a real welter. The fact that you can't see why Marquez could beat Pacquiao and still not be considered a top welter says alot about your boxing knowledge or lack there of.


> Bradley also should have got the win against Chaves, although he didn't look great in that fight.


Now whose dealing with hypothetically. Keith Thurman stopped Chaves BTW.



> Ward may have only lost a handful of rounds in his career, but in the past 4 years, he holds wins over Sullivan Barrera, Paul Smith and Edwin Rodríguez. That's even worse than Golovkin's record in the past four years, those guys are nothing on a P4P level. To rank Ward P4P, you have to include his wins before that. On that logic, Bradley shits all over welterweight
> Anyway, Vargas is not a nobody in the welterweight division like Smith is P4P


Wards wins over Miranda, Froch, Kessler, Abraham, Dawson and Rodriguez are far superior against Bradley's wins over Peterson, Holt, Alexander ect. Also If Bradley had looked good as Ward has cleaning up meager opposition I'd agree with you. But he hasn't. He was almost killed against Provodnikov, and was lucky to get the decision. Provodnikov is average at best. He got a draw against Chaves another average fighter. He then nearly gets kod again vs Vargas another average fighters.

Sorry you don't get ranked for barely beating average fighters son. Maybe your standards are just lax?[/quote][/Quote]


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Right, so because stylistically the match-up favoured Márquez, that makes beating Pacquiao easy does it? If it were so easy, how come he had never clearly beat Pacquiao before welter?


He had fought him 4 times and had his number. It happens sometimes. Research boxing history. Doesn't make Marquez a good welter sorry


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> So what are these good wins you speak besides Marquez 2 years ago? You know the fight he barely edged against a guy who has beaten no real Welters?
> 
> Fringes of the top 10 for beating who again?
> 
> ...


[/Quote][/QUOTE]
But I'm not talking about ranking Bradley top 5 P4P, I'm talking about ranking him top 3 at welterweight. Yes, in a P4P sense, the likes of Vargas and Chaves mean little, but they're decent, top 10/15 guys who seal Bradley's place in the top 3 at the weight. That's why he's among the top at welterweight but not P4P top 3 you mong


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> He had fought him 4 times and had his number. It happens sometimes. Research boxing history. Doesn't make Marquez a good welter sorry


Márquez had two close fights with Pacquiao below welter, then completely outboxed him, then KTFO him. Do you not see how the two fights at welter are more conclusive than the two fights below welter? Spastic


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

[/QUOTE]
But I'm not talking about ranking Bradley top 5 P4P, I'm talking about ranking him top 3 at welterweight. Yes, in a P4P sense, the likes of Vargas and Chaves mean little, but they're decent, top 10/15 guys who help seal Bradley's place in the top 3 at the weight. Added to previous results, he is among the the very best at welterweight today, and around 10 P4P, you absolute *********[/QUOTE]


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## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Cotto is a much better fighter at 154lbs .


Beat old Pac lost to Bradley via SD. Cotto beat shit Geale & lost to Trout LOL

JMM>Cotto. Greater overall fighter in every sense of the word! Not even arguable.



> Getting pissy already pactard? Lamont Peterson and Alexander aren't as good as Lara or Cotto. Just stop


Misrepresenting what I said intentionally. JMM is better than both & arguably Canelo didn't even beat Lara. In terms of talent no they might not be but as for resume yes they are. In fact combined they represent a greater resume depth. I have dealt with that comparison already. Move on.



> Everyone in the Denver area knows Alvarado was struggling with alcoholism and wasn't training for that fight. I said as much before the fight. About as meaningless a victory as you could find


I don't care. Brandon Ríos is a better scalp than Kirkland, former champion with wins over Alvarado, Abril & Chavez. Exactly who or what has Kirkland beat that puts him above the likes of Rios? Again he had 5 fights since being kayoed in 2011 by Ishida. He is an inactive scrub.. Rios isn't spectacular but neither is Kirkland & especially a version like that LOL



> Comparatively both Kirkland and Angulo were fully motivated. Kirkland had t lost since 2011 and Angulo coming off probably the best performance anyone has had against Lara his entire career. Lara ain't no Mike Alvarado


How do you know how motivated they are? Angulo lost. Both are scrubs. Exactly who or what has Angulo ever done or beat? You arguing these fighters are a level above Rios so tell me..



> Fighters age differently dummy and looking at their resume each on had much better wins at their respective weight classes than an alcoholic Alvarado and DQ win over Diego Chavez. Rios should've retired a long time ago given his style and inability to make weight. Ala featherfisted Bradley who can't crack an egg banging him out when Rios during his prime had one of the best chins in boxing.


Exactly who have Angulo & Kirkland beat? Which titles have they ever won? You also called Rios shot & fat.. What does that make a LMW Oscar, WW Hatton, WW Guerrero, LMW Cotto & WW JMM? Hypocrite!



> No. Unless by accomplishments you mean losing to Pacquiao 3 times, nearly dying vs average Provodnikov, almost getting banged out by 10 ko Jesse Vargas and barely decisioning and old Marquez as accomplishments.


No I mean beating JMM, Alexander, Peterson, Prov, Rios, Vargas, Chavez, Abregu, Witter, Holt & Casamayor. Bradley>Canelo. More depth, better accomplishments. Better overall win set.


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## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Pfft Corrales. Has nothing on a 180lb Morales


You said Corrales was a better win than Pac's over FW/SFW JMM though! So let's compare:

Pac's first two wins over JMM (One was a draw but I thought MP won it) In May 2004 IBF & WBA champion Márquez fought Lineal & _The Ring_ Featherweight Champion Manny Pacquiao in a bout where Márquez was knocked down three times in the 1st round. Declared a draw. JMM had beaten 5 time FW champion Manuel Medina, former BW champion Alfred Kotey, former SBW champion Agapito Sánchez & WBA champion Derrick Gainer. He would go onto beat Salido, Juarez & Barrera before losing again to Pac in 08.

Fight #2: On March 15, 2008 WBC SFW champion Márquez lost his Super Featherweight title to Pacquiao via split decision. Márquez was again knocked down in this fight. Both close fights but deserved Pac wins IMO.

Pac beat this guy twice & prime versions too. That is a better historical accomplishment & also better win(s). JMM is a greater p4p fighter with greater wins & better historical accomplishments & a multiple weight champion beating Juarez, Diaz, Casamayor, Alvarado, Pac & Katsidis as well as the above mentioned.

Corrales was undefeated IBF SFW champion when he fought Floyd & had one decent win over Derek Gainer. He would go onto lose 1-2 with Casamayor, 1-1 with Castillo, lose to Clottey & beat Freitas for the WBO LW belt.

Corrales is NOT an ATG. He is a noteworthy fighter of his era, time & division. But overall he has not done enough to be considered an ATG. JMM, Pac, Barrera, Oscar, Trinidad, Pernell, Morales, Floyd they are ATG's IMO Corrales is not! Floyd has NEVER beaten an ATG in his prime (or near it) at his normal weight range.

JMM>Corrales.


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## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Oh & as for you comparing FMJ beating 36 year old WW Pac in 2015 to Pac's win over _The Ring_ and lineal featherweight champion Barrera 12 years earlier LOL Firstly I originally said PRIME & I don't consider FMJ prime at 38 years old. Pac neither! I said wins in his prime! Those guys old as fuck knocking the fuck out of each other is not mean prime to me. I mean it's like saying Calzaghe & Kovalev beating Hopkins is a greater win than Hopkins' win over Tito back in the day! Does it make Calzaghe a greater fighter? No. Is it a better win? No. Neither Calzaghe or Sergey are greater fighters than Hopkins (win over him or not) & beating a great fighter years past his best doesn't make the victor a greater fighter or that particular scalp a more significant win than the example provided. Camacho beating SRL doesn't make that win better than all of SRL's wins does it? Beating Mosley doesn't mean you beat the ODH wins does it? Floyd has NEVER beaten an ATG in his prime (or near it) at his normal weight range. Granted FMJ was old too. I think I have made my points now & the subject is boring me.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Eoghan said:


> you mong.





Eoghan said:


> spastic.





Eoghan said:


> you absolute *********.


:lol:



PityTheFool said:


> Yep.I know.
> Younger version of Goat who forgets that I'm anything but anti-Boston for the most part.
> But,I still like Tommy.He just seems to go a little Chuck McGill on this one.


I need to hear either Tommy or @SwollenGoat say just one word: "Marvin". Should be simple enough. :yep



PityTheFool said:


> one of those stupid eye masks that some people wear in bed.


Hey! :ibutt

Oh, the regular ones people sleep with on? yeah, those are wack. The ice packs legit though, TFB uses them.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I need to hear either Tommy or @SwollenGoat say just one word: "Marvin". Should be simple enough. :yep


You will be sorely disappointed. my boston accent isnt as thick as you imagine.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> You will be sorely disappointed. my boston accent isnt as thick as you imagine.


There's no universe where this isn't the fucking shit.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Rios got spanked by Abril you absolute fucktard.


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## SwollenGoat (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> I need to hear either Tommy or @SwollenGoat say just one word: "Marvin". Should be simple enough. :yep
> 
> ...


Marvin misses out due to the time frame.................

Got to say listing Trinidad above Toney is a fucking disgrace IMHO though..........


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## SwollenGoat (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> There's no universe where this isn't the fucking shit.


Marvin was the best fighter Ive seen in my life...............Roy was a more gifted athelete,Tyson was a wrecking machine and lots of other guys had more brilliant single tools but Marvin had every tool and knew how to use em...........he could box and slug and dance and lean on you until you fell over and he could throw every punch in the book,fast,with as much power as he needed...........

Brilliant fighter............

Plus,well,Boston.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

SwollenGoat said:


> Marvin was the best fighter Ive seen in my life...............Roy was a more gifted athelete,Tyson was a wrecking machine and lots of other guys had more brilliant single tools but Marvin had every tool and knew how to use em...........he could box and slug and dance and lean on you until you fell over and he could throw every punch in the book,fast,with as much power as he needed...........
> 
> Brilliant fighter............
> 
> Plus,well,Boston.


There's a little 19-year-old Bostonian kid with crazy impressive knowledge that posts regularly in here and reps Marvin well. A little too well and tinted sometimes. :lol: New England people and their sports, man...


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## SwollenGoat (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> . :lol: New England people and their sports, man...


:yep


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> There's a little 19-year-old Bostonian kid with crazy impressive knowledge that posts regularly in here and reps Marvin well. A little too well and tinted sometimes. :lol: New England people and their sports, man...


I wonder if it was a mistake telling you that I am 19 lol


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> I wonder if it was a mistake telling you that I am 19 lol


Nah, I find it more impressive than anything. That's also a far greater avi than those Tyson Fury ones -- a truly dedicated-to-his-craft, Iron Chinned Warrior. Throwing one of those weak, pawing jabs we got schooled about last week, no doubt. :rofl Jesus, WTF has gotten into me lately. Even arguing him over Monzon in other threads.


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