# Better win? Mayweather over Marquez, or Hagler over Duran?



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Well?

You tell me.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

That's a good question.
Probably Floyd because he utterly dominated an ATG,whilst Cholo shook Hagler up and gave him a tough fight.
But then I know what others will say and I can see that side too.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

That's a difficult one. 
Marquez - made to go up weight classes ASAP, Marquez came in looking fat. Mayweather also did not make weight in an non-sportsman move. He outweighed Marquez by 5lbs. However on fight night, it was sheer and utter domination. One of the best performances against another ATG, but this version of Marquez was no ATG. Nevertheless, Marquez wasn't shot. 
Marquez had the worst possible style to face Mayweather also.


Duran was extremely past prime, fat, was 156lbs at the weigh in when his previous fight was his very good win over Davey Moore at 152lbs. Duran was still a very good 'world' level fighter having went on to beat Iran Barkley later on, but this was not even the Duran we know. However, prior to the Hagler fight, Duran was lazy and out of shape, and looked so against Benitez, and he had a shit loss against Laing. 
Duran still held his own and put Hagler through problems. 


I was too nice to Mayweather giving him full credit for that win against Marquez. Even though he beats any version of Marquez, the win that was the reality was a piss poor version of Marquez. 


Verdict: They are both as shit as eachother.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I've gone Floyd v Marquez.

If they hadn't fought, everyone would have been asking for the fight when jmm sparked Pac.


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## burn1 (Jun 4, 2013)

Picked Hagler but neither was that impressive to me.

Floyd easily handled Marquez like he should have.

Come to think of it, Hagler being the bigger man should have more easily handled Duran, but I don't think that was the case. So maybe I should have voted for Floyd.


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## DaCrooked (Jun 6, 2013)

Floyd easily. Peple keep bitching about the weight while overlooking the fact that Mayweather's fight night weight is the same as light weights and jr ww's.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

DaCrooked said:


> Floyd easily. Peple keep bitching about the weight while overlooking the fact that Mayweather's fight night weight is the same as light weights and jr ww's.


So what? Marquez is a tiny fatAZZ.

Besides, Marquez has the wrong style, the worst possible style. As if Marquez is going to come on the front foot and provide the pressurezzz


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd did what he had to do, 120-107 for the black guy.
Hagler was losing a few rounds to a fat lightweight being a middle himself.


Hagler should have stopped Duran considering he was the nr1 mw and Duran a fat lw yet could not.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hagler, clearly.

First, Duran is far more technically diverse and capable than Marquez. THAT is why he managed to give Hagler more issues than Marquez did Floyd. He is a better boxer (even then) and better off the front foot also. Marquez was at a stylistic disadvantage whereas Duran was never troubled wherever the bout took place (unless you were a freak like Hearns and could beat the shit out of him, which is 1 in a million)

Secondly, Floyd didn't make the stipulated weight. Not that it would've made any difference whatsoever but looking at the bout as a whole Floyd wasn't as professional there as he was in the ring.

Thirdly Marquez, ahem, 'grew' into welterweight after Floyd so badly schooled him. When he fought Floyd he didn't look in great shape. Duran was more naturally capable of fighting at middleweight than JMM was at 147 when he fought Floyd. 

Floyd likely put on the better showing and looked more aesthetically pleasing dissecting Marquez, but Hagler was in with a far cannier operator and a greater fighter at that.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

It has to be Hagler. Even old fat Duran is better than any version of Marquez. I love Marquez but he's levels bellow Duran. Old Duran was still a serious force way above his prime weight. He was that good.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

May over Marquez come on. They started like 4 lbs from eachother


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Have to go with Hagler over Duran. Duran is the much more accomplished fighter, and had the more consistent (if less memorable) success at 160 and above than Marquez. This was 6 years before he'd beat Iran Barkley, and fresh of KO's of Cuevas and Moore. To me the competitiveness of the bout shows Duran's capability, as opposed to tarnishing the win due to a lack of comparative dominance.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Hagler v Duran.Floyd didn't even meet the agreed weight limit and Marquez was plodding like hell after just doing weights for two months.


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## KWilson71 (Jun 8, 2013)

Going with Mayweather. Coming off of a layoff to have a performance like that was something


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hagler over Duran. Roberto was still a good fighter at 160 at the time.. And he won a title 6 years later at the same weight. Hagler also had a style which Duran could give trouble to.. And Hagler won the later rounds and won.. Mayweather over Marquez was easy for Mayweather and to be honest, Duran is so much greater than Marquez.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

KWilson71 said:


> Going with Mayweather. Coming off of a layoff to have a performance like that was something


You must really rate Saldivar-Legra and McFarland-Gibbons then.


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## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)

Credit to Mayweathers technical clinic but Marquez wasn't as diverse and ring smart as Duran. Marquez had a significant size and style disadvantage which made the fight a poorer match up, He entered the #1 lightweight in the world according to The Ring Magazine. Mayweather was coming off a long hiatus. Mayweather Landed amazing 290 of his 493 blows (59 percent) while allowing just 12 percent of Marquez's 583 punches to land. It was a solid comeback fight but the technical aspects make me think how much the cherry pick the fight was, at the time no one wanted the fight due to the one sided nature and it's a surprise that Marquez was only 2.5-1 underdog because I don't remember Marquez getting much of a chance. Mayweather was 2 pounds over which was a disappointing.

Hagler was a 4 to 1 favourite going into the fight and expected to destroy Duran but it was a close fight until the finish. They both fought identical weights, Duran carried his weight well and was a lot more confronting to Hagler than was expected. Duran showed his skill and toughness. Duran busted Hagler up. Hagler chose to be stand offish instead of going in strong and that gave away his size and strength advantage and therefore he had to beat Duran with more skill and ring generalship. I voted Hagler simply based on the two being in higher ATG league, Duran being a more high quality opponent with a better harder contest for Hagler. The sizes were a lot more equal.


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

Hagler.
Duran was better than JMM competitive and stylistically.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Hagler, clearly.
> 
> First, Duran is far more technically diverse and capable than Marquez. THAT is why he managed to give Hagler more issues than Marquez did Floyd. He is a better boxer (even then) and better off the front foot also. Marquez was at a stylistic disadvantage whereas Duran was never troubled wherever the bout took place (unless you were a freak like Hearns and could beat the shit out of him, which is 1 in a million)
> 
> ...


Where was Duran on the pfp rankings and how big of a layoff was Hagler coming off of? The end.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hagler over Duran fosho 

Mayweather-marquez is the better performance but thats because marquez's style would've never given Floyd issues. Stylistically duran could always look good against Hagler, fat or not.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> Where was Duran on the pfp rankings and how big of a layoff was Hagler coming off of? The end.


I hope your parents die of cancer.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I hope your parents die of cancer.


:yep
Still angry that Lopez is a top 10 ATG?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dyna said:


> :yep
> Still angry that Lopez is a top 10 ATG?


Seeing as Rahman placed above him I feel a bit sorry for Lopez.


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## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

don't forget about the layoff.


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## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

i dunno though, good question


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Duran was the better, more accomplished fighter, and acclimated to the weight better. I fail to see how people pick the win over Marquez.


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## DaCrooked (Jun 6, 2013)

Hagler was a career MW who beat a guy who started at lightweight.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

DaCrooked said:


> Hagler was a career MW who beat a guy who started at lightweight.


And?


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Duran was the better, more accomplished fighter, and acclimated to the weight better. I fail to see how people pick the win over Marquez.


The difference is the dominance of Mayweather vs Hagler not looking spectacular.
It would have been a big difference had Hagler stopped Duran in 3 (for example)


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> The difference is the dominance of Mayweather vs Hagler not looking spectacular.
> It would have been a big difference had Hagler stopped Duran in 3 (for example)


Winning competitively against a better opponent outweighs winning easy against a lesser one 9/10 for me.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Winning competitively against a better opponent outweighs winning easy against a lesser one 9/10 for me.


This.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Winning competitively against a better opponent outweighs winning easy against a lesser one 9/10 for me.


I admit that I'm most likely biased against Hagler so big chance you're fairer.

Mayweather
Lesser opponent who also has a massive stylistic disadvantage (can't pressure for shit)
100% dominant
Lay off

Hagler
Better opponent who fought in a style Hagler did not expect.
Less dominant, didn't look very good
Active mw champ can't stop former lw champ

to be fair to Hagler, Duran just had a granite chin

Mayweather obviously has the more dominant win while Hagler fought the better man, it's just how you weigh it.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> I admit that I'm most likely biased against Hagler so big chance you're fairer.
> 
> Mayweather
> Lesser opponent who also has a massive stylistic disadvantage (can't pressure for shit)
> ...


To me the part in bold is what matters most. His opponent was better, and he beat him. If someone nearly dies going up Mt. Everest, you don't go "pff I hiked up the hill in my local park backwards without breaking a sweat" and claim superiority.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Hagler, clearly.
> 
> First, Duran is far more technically diverse and capable than Marquez. THAT is why he managed to give Hagler more issues than Marquez did Floyd. He is a better boxer (even then) and better off the front foot also. Marquez was at a stylistic disadvantage whereas Duran was never troubled wherever the bout took place (unless you were a freak like Hearns and could beat the shit out of him, which is 1 in a million)
> 
> ...


Here's the winning argument, IMO.

Mayweather moving JMM up, then missing weight was deplorable. A genuine farce I'm glad I didn't financially support. Hagler beating an old, but still game Duran is, sadly, a notch above.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> To me the part in bold is what matters most. His opponent was better, and he beat him. If someone nearly dies going up Mt. Everest, you don't go "pff I hiked up the hill in my local park backwards without breaking a sweat" and claim superiority.


Fair enough.
But if Duran is the Mt. Everest, Marquez is atleast some of the easier alps above 3000 meter.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Fair enough.
> But if Duran is the Mt. Everest, Marquez is atleast some of the easier alps above 3000 meter.


Yeah for sure. Much more apt comparison.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> That's a good question. Probably Floyd because he utterly dominated an ATG,whilst Cholo shook Hagler up and gave him a tough fight. But then I know what others will say and I can see that side too.





dyna said:


> Floyd did what he had to do, 120-107 for the black guy. Hagler was losing a few rounds to a fat lightweight being a middle himself.





Flea Man said:


> Hagler, clearly. Window lickers.





turbotime said:


> May over Marquez come on. They started like 4 lbs from eachother





JMP said:


> :money





Bogotazo said:


> *To me the competitiveness of the bout shows Duran's capability, as opposed to tarnishing the win due to a lack of comparative dominance.*


:smug

I like the idea of it being both.

Here's a Roberto Duran several years off his best at a far less effective weight and one in which he hadn't even previously fought at that point, where before you've even seen him fight.cuts a relatively unimpressive figure (could say the same for JMM in 2009): Then you do and it's revealed he has unequivocally diminished attributes, ability, will to fight, and even worse, lesser motivated training habits that can be read up on than previously when he had the surprisingly fast hands, cat-like reflexes, greater agility and fluidity in his defensive upperbody movement, fresher wheels, higher level of stamina, a more consistent work rate and if not more power relative to the divisions then certainly a higher capacity to get his shots off and find the target. The multitude of angles Duran was able to attack, slip, roll, duck and counter effectively from just isn't even comparable. Not even when watching him take apart a Cuevas or Moore. It's a wicked reality of what were looking at here as compared to a 135-147 Duran who'd put everything together circa mid-70s and culminated in his historic triumph over a primed, undefeated Ray Leonard. I'm really just preaching to the choir here, and it isn't even necessarily directed at the quoted posters but rather the band of "Duran lost to every ATG he fought" motherfuckers and I'll repeatedly point it out at every opportunity in the WBF.

So he goes in with the highly capable, highly conditioned ambidextrous Top 5 ATG Middleweight who was right in the thick of a seven-year, 12-defense reign at the top and basically operating right near the height of his powers. What happens? He doesn't just last the distance with him - something every other Hagler title challenger aside from Ray Leonard failed to do - he fights competitively, he wins rounds, and at times makes him look tentative, ordinary, even puzzled by not fighting in the manner that on paper should've afforded a natural counterpuncher like Hagler the chance to look dominant and impressive in what up to that point was considered the biggest fight of his career. There was little in the way of critical praise for Hagler afterwards and rightly so. Duran was far from being a mere 'name' (very far, don't get my viewpoint confused) but not an ATG at 154 and up and I'm referring specifically to his in-ring abilities, not resume or accomplishments. Sometimes being more accomplished doesn't really equate to a more formidable fighter in the ring on the night or a better win in reality when taken on a case-by-case basis. In this particular comparison (which I'm not even really addressing), he definitely was.

However, of all the bouts between the Fab 5 including Benitez here, this one is right near the bottom for me and barely cuts the top 10 between them in terms of overall win value. Benitez outclassed him far more impressively, Hearns pretty much goes without saying. Roberto is in a different tier and class than Hagler IMO and I'm not just talking about greatness. Goes for SRL as well.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> *To me the competitiveness of the bout shows Duran's capability, as opposed to tarnishing the win due to a lack of comparative dominance.*


I do subscribe heavily to this in a lot of other instances: SRL/Benitez, SRL/Hearns, JCC/Taylor, Toney/Nunn, Toney/McCallum (for both as I had them going 1-1 in the two relevant bouts). All better fighters at the time than the Duran that Hagler encountered. Elite, top level guys much less clear cut ATGs are very rarely going to be bulldozed or utterly dominated save for a stylistic nightmare without something being 'up' (i.e. past it, legit drained, fighting a less effective weight, etc). Sometimes it can be both. Doesn't mean they aren't wildly impressive performances or great wins, but there's usually something. Excuses perhaps is all they are, but if you're honest with yourself and aware, then you know what it is.


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## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

floyd didnt even TRY to make weight. he was more than happy to pay that extra $600k

"im a coward? well im a RICH coward" :yep

Hagler - Duran


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

This thread has potential.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> You must really rate Saldivar-Legra


Legra-Saldivar is as great as I expected it to be - top-notch boxing from both fighters.

No past-prime/overweight shit - Legra looked as good as ever.

One of the best post-layoff wins - speaks volumes of how good Saldivar was.

Easily trumps the Floyd-Marquez travesty:yep

By the way, Arguello-Legra KO1 is impressive, anyway you slice it.

Excellent upload, Flea.






@Zopilote

@Bogotazo


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Legra-Saldivar is as great as I expected it to be - top-notch boxing from both fighters.
> 
> No past-prime/overweight shit - Legra looked as good as ever.
> 
> ...


Before Jofre-Legra was rudely given away for free I had seen it and felt it was closer than suggested.

Now more have seen it the consensus is that Jofre was unfairly given the decision.

Not long after that Arguello waxed Legra.

Exceptional victory.

Then Marcel schooled Alexis.

Marcel is one the ATG 126lbers ever, no doubt.

As for Saldivar-Legra, the Mexican had massive balls for taking this fight, and showed massive heart and skill to win.

The Famechon fight is coming up next :good

Anyone who thinks Sal Sanchez is greater than Saldivar, bite me.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Marcel is one the ATG 126lbers ever, no doubt.


The Dancing Trio - Laguna, Marcel, Legra - is criminally underrated.



Flea Man said:


> Anyone who thinks Chavez is the greatest, bite me.


Controversial as always.

But I agree - both Saldivar & Sanchez beat better fighters than Chavez.:yep


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Thanks for the post Lester. Will let you know once I get a chance to take a look.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Thanks for the post Lester. Will let you know once I get a chance to take a look.


No problem.

It's Flea who deserves the credit though - his uploads are top quality.

Even Cunto fights.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> No problem.
> 
> It's Flea who deserves the credit though - his uploads are top quality.
> 
> Even Cunto fights.


Leave El Maestro alone.

And thanks for the props. RB should be thanked for providing the footage in this instance.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Legra-Saldivar is as great as I expected it to be - top-notch boxing from both fighters.
> 
> No past-prime/overweight shit - Legra looked as good as ever.
> 
> ...





Bogotazo said:


> Thanks for the post Lester. Will let you know once I get a chance to take a look.


First things First






Don't be fooled by Flea's accidental typo in the video title.


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## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

No offense to the OP but think it's a poor comparison.
I think Mayweather is the more impressive due to his dominance though I think the circumstances surrounding both fights heavily favoured both Hagler and Mayweather. Duran was past prime, up from 135 to 160 fighting an absolutely prime Marvin Hagler and Hagler struggled. Makes you appreciate how good and tenacious Duran was.

Mayweather likewise had a huge weight (in terms of lean mass which is what counts!), reach, height and stylistic advantage over Marquez, made even more difficult when Mayweather refused to abide by the already advantageous 144 catchweight.

So 2 all time greats lost in 2 fights they were hugely disadvantaged in so neither win was hugely impressive when you dig a little deeper. Mayweather's one was however more dominant so there's your answer


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> First things First
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't that the official result? Because Marcel dominated and I'd have loved to call it 'Marcel UTTER WHITEWASH15 Gomez'

Likewise it was a shame I had to label Shibata-Marcel a draw 

Marcel-Arguello is also VERY impressive. Great fight as well.
@Bogotazo Watch as much Marcel as you can if you ain't already.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> @Bogotazo Watch as much Marcel as you can if you ain't already.


And then watch Laguna.

And then watch Legra.

Spend years analyzing them, comparing them, worshiping them.

Only to realize that it all was just a pointless exercise in futility.

El Feo is the ultimate dance machine.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Isn't that the official result? Because Marcel dominated and I'd have loved to call it 'Marcel UTTER WHITEWASH15 Gomez'


:lol:

Yeah it was, just joking due to how ridiculously one-sided it was. What's the story with Gomez's Venezuelan wins over DeJesus and Cervantes?



> Likewise it was a shame I had to label Shibata-Marcel a draw
> 
> Marcel-Arguello is also VERY impressive. Great fight as well.
> 
> @Bogotazo Watch as much Marcel as you can if you ain't already.


The film quality for Shibata is :jjj pristine. That "draw" probably really hurts him as far as being overlooked by fans I think because it denied him from going into the record books as the 'legitimate' Featherweight Champion, which he certainly was the man anyway, title or no title.

Yeah Bogo if you haven't this is far-and-away one of the absolutely most skilled opponents Duran ever _fought_, not just beat. There's a select group of lovable hipsters on the internet who believe Marcel is the most skilled featherweight of the last five decades or so -- and I wouldn't be inclined to argue too much about it. Duran didn't really stop him legitimately though, and it was much closer than when he hit Buchanan with the testicle-rupturing knockout blow.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :smug
> 
> I like the idea of it being both.
> 
> ...


It's tough for me because Duran basically EVT'd Hagler when Mayweather just made the fight look insanely easy


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yeah it was, just joking due to how ridiculously one-sided it was. What's the story with Gomez's Venezuelan wins over DeJesus and Cervantes?
> 
> ...


Yeah, Marcel's title reign should've started there. If you use common sense, he actually unified when he beat Gomez.

DeJesus and Cervantes both pre-prime. Heard nothing dodgy about it, only found snippets of generic AP reports in English langauge though.

The Marcel stoppage was ludicrous; apparently the ref thought Marcel was being too negative but it was the last round and he was hardly Andre Direlling his way around the ring. Still, I had Duran up by a few points and Marcel didn't look far from his absolute best.

Would LOVE to see Marcel's stoppage of Spider Nemoto. It was filmed, but appears to be lost to time. Nemoto was a tiny awkward fucker who gave Pedroza a decent enough tussle.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> No problem.
> 
> It's Flea who deserves the credit though - his uploads are top quality.
> *
> Even Cunto fights.*


:lol: :nono


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> It's tough for me because Duran basically EVT'd Hagler when Mayweather just made the fight look insanely easy


Duran event'd Hagler so hard:wales some die-hard duranoids to this day believe Duran deserved the decision.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Obviously Mayweather

Duran was a lightweight and Hagler was a middleweighg

Mayweather began his career at 130, Marquez at 126

Durans only notable victory at the weight was overrated Iran Barkley

Marquez would go on to beat Manny Pacquiao

Mayweather dominated, Hagler squeaked out a victory

Its clear unless your a hater who overrated past fighters


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Obviously Mayweather
> 
> Duran was a lightweight and Hagler was a middleweighg
> 
> ...


You can't spell.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You can't spell.


Your mothers a whore


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Your mothers a whore


Forgot the apostrophe.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Duran event'd Hagler so hard:wales some die-hard duranoids to this day believe Duran deserved the decision.


:rofl
@duranimal ??


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Obviously Mayweather
> 
> Duran was a lightweight and Hagler was a middleweighg
> 
> ...


What a tragically ignorant post. It never ceases to amaze me just how clueless, yet so arrogant, you are when it comes to boxing MW. Why do you call Duran a LW when he obviously wasn't? But the irony that will be lost to you is that just prior, JMM actually was a lightweight. And of course, we all know how the weigh in went for that fight, right? Duran is a consensus top 10 ATG fighter. And yes, he put up a fight vs. Hagler because of how great he was. But in your shallow, little mind, because Floyd won by a larger margin, that means his win was better. Even though you admit Duran had a win at Mw over Barkley, who had just beat Hearns himself.

Just keep talking accusing people of being racist or haters. That's pretty much all you contribute. Poser.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> It's tough for me because Duran basically EVT'd Hagler when Mayweather just made the fight look insanely easy


Lol people should stop using that term like it means anything


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, Marcel's title reign should've started there. If you use common sense, he actually unified when he beat Gomez.
> 
> DeJesus and Cervantes both pre-prime. Heard nothing dodgy about it, only found snippets of generic AP reports in English langauge though.


Undisputed Champ. :deal

Rather hard to take the IBHOF seriously, isn't it? -- and that's probably an even bigger reason as to why he's underrated or just flat out unknown. It really shouldn't happen considering he's fought the likes of Alexis Arguello and Roberto Duran (my initial pathway to him) but it's always apparent when people are discussing the latter and Marcel's really nowhere to be found when discussing - and usually trying to diss - his resume.



Flea Man said:


> The Marcel stoppage was ludicrous; apparently the ref thought Marcel was being too negative but it was the last round and he was hardly Andre Direlling his way around the ring. Still, I had Duran up by a few points and Marcel didn't look far from his absolute best.


Yeah thankfully Duran didn't need the TKO to pull out the win, it was just such a sour finish and Marcel deserved to see the final bell. He's one of the (relatively few) ATG's that should've never had any kind of stoppage losses on his record. I'm not really sure as to why he decided to call it quits in '74 as I've only watched fights and not gotten into the outside the ring machinations with him but it's rare as hell. Even more so to never attempt to launch a comeback, rarer still to beat a slam dunk all-time great to cap off his run. That's the sweetest way to go out. I'm definitely in the minority, but I would've been perfectly happy to find that Duran had called it a career after the first Leonard fight himself. Never would've ever happened given the money on the table and Roberto's issues with handling it, but it's nice to dream sometimes.



> Would LOVE to see Marcel's stoppage of Spider Nemoto. It was filmed, but appears to be lost to time. Nemoto was a tiny awkward fucker who gave Pedroza a decent enough tussle.


And then promptly upload it. :yep

Really though to be completely serious, you've saved people a lot of time and money putting many of these fights up for public consumption. There's so much stuff I admittedly haven't even got to yet. It's appreciated, dude.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Legra-Saldivar is as great as I expected it to be - top-notch boxing from both fighters.
> 
> No past-prime/overweight shit - Legra looked as good as ever.
> 
> ...


:good

Excellent win by Saldivar, retires as the man at 126lbs, comes out of retirement and beats the two top dogs in Legra and Famechon. :bowdown

Thanks for vid!


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Before Jofre-Legra was rudely given away for free I had seen it and felt it was closer than suggested.
> 
> Now more have seen it the consensus is that Jofre was unfairly given the decision.
> 
> ...


Saldivar-Marcel...Who you got on that one, Flea??

Oh and thanks for that upload! :good


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> What a tragically ignorant post. It never ceases to amaze me just how clueless, yet so arrogant, you are when it comes to boxing MW.


Says the guy who was voted worst poster on ESB, claimed to have been YMCA rec league all-star in Alaska, that Mayweather was ducking Vivian Harris, and never went to college.

The gaul on you boy.



> Why do you call Duran a LW when he obviously wasn't?


Duran began his career at Lightweight. Common knowledge nancy.



> But the irony that will be lost to you is that just prior, JMM actually was a lightweight.


How many fights at middleweight did Duran have before he fought Hagler. Besides overrated Barkley who did Duran beat at the weight?



> And of course, we all know how the weigh in went for that fight, right?


2lbs didnt make the difference in the figh retard. Please show me in any fight where Mayweather came in anymore than 2lbs heavier than his opponent.



> Duran is a consensus top 10 ATG fighter.


durans historical standing has nothing to do with the conditions of the fight. Dont be an idiot.


> > But in your shallow, little mind, because Floyd won by a larger margin
> 
> 
> Floyd won by a wider margin, Floyd and Marquez were closer size and ability than Hagler vs Duran and Marquez has the much better win at the weight than durans win over Barkley. Marquez is a much better fighter at welterweight than Duran was at middleweight.
> ...


----------



## Kush (May 24, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Winning competitively against a better opponent outweighs winning easy against a lesser one 9/10 for me.


:deal

Crusty old Duran is greater than a prime Jmm


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

APOLLO said:


> :deal
> 
> Crusty old Duran is greater than a prime Jmm


Prime JMM never even saw lightweight IMO.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Prime JMM never even saw lightweight IMO.


:deal

126lbs was his prime IMO.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> :deal
> 
> 126lbs was his prime IMO.


Physically, yeah. Overall peak, I think 130.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> How many fights at middleweight did Duran have before he fought Hagler. Besides overrated Barkley who did Duran beat at the weight?


Davey Moore who was an excellent fighter?



> Besides KOing a chinny Hearns outside his best weight, name one other notable performance Barkley had.


How about beating & outboxing Hearns over the distance, + fucking up Olajide & decisioning Williams.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Says the guy who was voted worst poster on ESB, claimed to have been YMCA rec league all-star in Alaska, that Mayweather was ducking Vivian Harris, and never went to college.
> 
> The gaul on you boy.
> 
> ...


Still on with the lance stuff. Someone must have gotten into your empty skull. Always an excuse, or a caveat for you highly illogical opinion. Listen poser, Duran's status tells us how great a fighter he was. Do you understand that? So yes, historical rankings do matter. Hell, if I thought like you, I'd say FMjr's win over Carlos Baldomir was greater, since he beat him easier then Hagler did Duran. You're so out of your element it's practically comical.

Just go back to talking like a stubborn poser with opinions based on what you limited brain can comprehend. Poser.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Physically, yeah. Overall peak, I think 130.


You could be right on that...I would have loved to see him fight more at 130lbs...

Juan moving up to 130lbs after Pacquiao 1 would have been nice..


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Davey Moore who was an excellent fighter?
> 
> How about beating & outboxing Hearns over the distance, + fucking up Olajide & decisioning Williams.


Michigan warrior has no sense of history of boxing. He'l just call those guys overrated to try and further his opinion as something valid. He carries the logic of a 9yo.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> Still on with the lance stuff. Someone must have gotten into your empty skull. Always an excuse, or a caveat for you highly illogical opinion. Listen poser, Duran's status tells us how great a fighter he was. Do you understand that? So yes, historical rankings do matter. Hell, if I thought like you, I'd say FMjr's win over Carlos Baldomir was greater, since he beat him easier then Hagler did Duran. You're so out of your element it's practically comical.
> 
> Just go back to talking like a stubborn poser with opinions based on what you limited brain can comprehend. Poser.


You're nancy.

Also I said that Floyd's dominance is only one of the aspects that makes it a greater win but if thats your way of conceding so be it Nancy.


----------



## Kush (May 24, 2013)

Yeah I think 130 was his best.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> You're nancy.
> 
> Also I said that Floyd's dominance is only one of the aspects that makes it a greater win but if thats your way of conceding so be it Nancy.


Conceding? Do you even understand what that word means son? You aren't capable of putting any type of respected post on the subject since you have no clue about anything in boxing prior to FMjr beating Gatti, if even that.

Stick with saying gayboy over and over. But do that while clicking your heels three time (if you can count that high), you may get your gayboy wish.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Davey Moore who was an excellent fighter?


Uhh Duran fought Moore at Light Middle/.



> How about beating & outboxing Hearns over the distance, + fucking up Olajide & decisioning Williams.


Lmao stop please. dont just throw out names. explain what made Olajide and williams notable fighters.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> :deal
> 
> 126lbs was his prime IMO.


When he was 140 + in the ring :hey


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> Conceding? Do you even understand what that word means son? You aren't capable of putting any type of respected post on the subject since you have no clue about anything in boxing prior to FMjr beating Gatti, if even that.


Nancy you were named worst poster on ESB. Stop this charade.



> Stick with saying gayboy over and over. But do that while clicking your heels three time (if you can count that high), you may get your gayboy wish.


/
What does this even mean? You on a meth binge again Nancy?


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Uhh Duran fought Moore at Light Middle/.
> 
> Lmao stop please. dont just throw out names. *explain what made Olajide and williams notable fighters.*


How about you educate yourself for once poser. Or better yet, don't comment on anyone you haven't a clue about, which is pretty much all boxers, FMjr included,


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> How about you educate yourself for once poser. Or better yet, don't comment on anyone you haven't a clue about, which is pretty much all boxers, FMjr included,


What made them special victories then nancy. Name some of their notable accomplishments in the sport besides having winning records against journeymen.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> When he was 140 + in the ring :hey


Only time i remember him being that high was in the 2nd Pacquiao fight, which was his last fight at 130lbs and him weighing in at 141lbs on fight night, to Pacquiao's 145lbs.

He was cutting alot of weight in his last fights at Featherweight tho.


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> What made them special victories than nancy. Name some of their notable accomplishments in the sport besides having winning records against journeymen.


Educate yourself poser. Why should anyone tell you about these guys whom you will only dismiss?


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## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

turbotime said:


> When he was 140 + in the ring :hey


 He routinely weighed in at 147-148 during his 130 days. No different to the Mayweather fight really. Love Juan but Floyd would have beaten him at any weight. Its impossible to be accurate against Floyd and Juan's game revolves around those quick, accurate combinations. Canelo is also a very accurate puncher but all that is rendered useless against the Wizard.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> Educate yourself poser. Why should anyone tell you about these guys whom you will only dismiss?


lol thats what I thought nancy


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Uhh Duran fought Moore at Light Middle/.
> 
> Lmao stop please. dont just throw out names. explain what made Olajide and williams notable fighters.


oh word. completely forgot, thought it was at middle. Still a very good win. The energy of that fight is incredible

its true that barkley mostly lost when he stepped up to the elite fighters, but Olajide & Williams were decent, durable, serviceable fighters. Nothing wrong with those wins, even if they aren't elite opposition. Olajide was a tricky & fleet footed fighter that Barkley eventually just knocked the fuck out of.

There's also James Kinchen who was a decent contender.


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## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

Zopilote said:


> Only time i remember him being that high was in the 2nd Pacquiao fight, which was his last fight at 130lbs and him weighing in at 141lbs on fight night, to Pacquiao's 145lbs. He was cutting alot of weight in his last fights at Featherweight tho.


 I could have sworn he was 145+ in the 2nd Pacquiao fight?


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> lol thats what I thought nancy


You too thought you would just dismiss them? LOL at least you are honest about that part poser!


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Glove_Game said:


> I could have sworn he was 145+ in the 2nd Pacquiao fight?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> It's tough for me because Duran basically EVT'd Hagler


:rofl :deal Yeah, he did. According to George Kimball when Hagler was competing in an amateur comp, his name was misspelled to Nagler. He seriously should've adopted it. There's no one who whines and bitches like that man.



Lester1583 said:


> Duran event'd Hagler so hard:wales some die-hard duranoids to this day believe Duran deserved the decision.


MONTREAL Duran would've ate his soul on some Grebian shit. Different levels.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> oh word. completely forgot, thought it was at middle. Still a very good win. The energy of that fight is incredible
> 
> its true that barkley mostly lost when he stepped up to the elite fighters, but Olajide & Williams were decent, durable, serviceable fighters. Nothing wrong with those wins, even if they aren't elite opposition. Olajide was a tricky & fleet footed fighter that Barkley eventually just knocked the fuck out of.
> 
> There's also James Kinchen who was a decent contender.


Nothing wrong with those wins but nothing that signifies anything meaningful. They were serviceable guys, thats it. Barkley's claim to fame is his wins over Hearns and his beating at the hands of Toney. Otherwise, meh.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Glove_Game said:


> He routinely weighed in at 147-148 during his 130 days. No different to the Mayweather fight really. Love Juan but Floyd would have beaten him at any weight. Its impossible to be accurate against Floyd and Juan's game revolves around those quick, accurate combinations. Canelo is also a very accurate puncher but all that is rendered useless against the Wizard.












Weight dont have shit to do with those reflexes.


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## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

Zopilote said:


>


 Jesus christ my memory is bad. No Idea where I got 147 from, thats some Mikey Garcia level rehydrating


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## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Weight dont have shit to do with those reflexes.


 So slick and black. What did Juan weigh on fight night just out of curiosity?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Glove_Game said:


> So slick and black. What did Juan weigh on fight night just out of curiosity?


Cant remember. 146 or 148.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Glove_Game said:


> So slick and black. What did Juan weigh on fight night just out of curiosity?


If i remember correctly, Juan was at 148lbs against Floyd on Fight Night.


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## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

He caught a bit of criticism for not finishing Juan in that fight but Juan actually looked really sharp whenever Floyd went forward, he tried to go in for the kill a few times and JMM caught him with some nice counters. The poor guy just had no chance fighting on the front foot.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> It's tough for me because Duran basically EVT'd Hagler when Mayweather just made the fight look insanely easy





Zopilote said:


> :good
> 
> Excellent win by Saldivar, retires as the man at 126lbs, comes out of retirement and beats the two top dogs in Legra and Famechon. :bowdown
> 
> Thanks for vid!


How are you ordering Saldivar, Olivarez and JCC these days? Sal on the outside looking in.


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## uraharakisuke (May 16, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Weight dont have shit to do with those reflexes.


Fuck me you occasionally forget just how ridiculously skilled Floyd is.

Still voted for Hagler/Duran mind. Old Marv the baddest fucker of all time;


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How are you ordering Saldivar, Olivarez and JCC these days? Sal on the outside looking in.


Chavez still stays at numero uno.

Olivares, Saldivar, and Sanchez are the ones i keep changing around...after reading this thread, and watching that fight against Legra, i have it:

Chavez
Saldivar
Olivares
Sanchez

Just let me watch some other fights of Ruben or Chava, and ill be changing the order again! :lol:


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Good to see the poll results making more sense than they did yesterday. 

Duran's win over Barkley is more significant for the fact that Duran could hang with a top Middleweight. JMM went on to beat Pacquiao, which is a better win, but said nothing about his ability to hang with other top welterweights since Manny's frame and dimensions are a bit below average. Barkley was no midget. The only time I'd say JMM looked sharp above 135 was JMM-Pac 3, after his first camp with Memo's strength and conditioning regimen. 

Duran is the better fighter, and handled the weight better. That's all there is to it. Better opponent, Hagler beat him.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Good to see the poll results making more sense than they did yesterday.
> 
> Duran's win over Barkley is more significant for the fact that Duran could hang with a top Middleweight. JMM went on to beat Pacquiao, which is a better win, but said nothing about his ability to hang with other top welterweights since Manny's frame and dimensions are a bit below average. Barkley was no midget. *The only time I'd say JMM looked sharp above 135 was JMM-Pac 3, after his first camp with Memo's strength and conditioning regimen*.
> 
> Duran is the better fighter, and handled the weight better. That's all there is to it. Better opponent, Hagler beat him.


:deal x 4934753987348957

I have always believed this as well.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Weight dont have shit to do with those reflexes.


good gif. Seven missed shots.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> Only time i remember him being that high was in the 2nd Pacquiao fight, which was his last fight at 130lbs and him weighing in at 141lbs on fight night, to Pacquiao's 145lbs.
> 
> He was cutting alot of weight in his last fights at Featherweight tho.


Mhm, and May gaining like 3 lbs :lol:


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## Divi253 (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd was more dominant, against someone closer to his natural size IMO. Hagler's win was closer, but against better competition. Depends on what the individual voting values more. Poll results should be mixed, as we all have different criteria for a 'better win'.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

People also need to stop using numbers to pretend Floyd didn't have a strength advantage. Raw weight isn't as important as a fighter's frame, where the weight is distributed, etc. I could weigh 200 pounds from eating burgers, or from bodybuilding, it won't be the same 200 pounds of a boxer, or of a wrestler, etc.

Floyd posed a style problem first and foremost, but Floyd had no problem bullying the fuck out of JMM whenever he tried to follow up on his counters inside.










Here, let me just shove you into the ring-post.


















Don't remember any moments like that for Hagler-Duran.


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## Divi253 (Jun 4, 2013)

@Bogotazo how much of an effect do you think that had on the fight though?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Divi253 said:


> @Bogotazo how much of an effect do you think that had on the fight though?


Floyd's strength advantage? Probably not enough that JMM would have won. But that's all hypothetical. All we know is JMM wasn't effective enough of a welterweight to avoid getting bullied, and Duran proved he was better acclimated to the weight when he beat a legitimate Middleweight in Barkley. JMM has only beaten Pacquiao, who himself is not a welterweight with big dimensions (and Fedchenko, where he didn't look too hot).


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## Divi253 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Floyd's strength advantage? Probably not enough that JMM would have won. But that's all hypothetical. All we know is JMM wasn't effective enough of a welterweight to avoid getting bullied, and Duran proved he was better acclimated to the weight when he beat a legitimate Middleweight in Barkley. JMM has only beaten Pacquiao, who himself is not a welterweight with big dimensions (and Fedchenko, where he didn't look too hot).


Yeah the strength advantage. I don't think Floyd used his size enough to have any real effect on the fight.. or any individual rounds honestly. Just wanted to know if you thought it played a big part, or any significant part at all in the fight.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> People also need to stop using numbers to pretend Floyd didn't have a strength advantage. Raw weight isn't as important as a fighter's frame, where the weight is distributed, etc. I could weigh 200 pounds from eating burgers, or from bodybuilding, it won't be the same 200 pounds of a boxer, or of a wrestler, etc.
> 
> Floyd posed a style problem first and foremost, but Floyd had no problem bullying the fuck out of JMM whenever he tried to follow up on his counters inside.
> 
> ...


Good gifs. I think a lot of people underestimates how strong Floyd is due to his average punching power. Most people who tries to out muscle/bully him just flat out fails.
Floyd is just physically stronger than JMM but it doesn't matter JMM would still get owned regardless of weight.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Divi253 said:


> Yeah the strength advantage. I don't think Floyd used his size enough to have any real effect on the fight.. or any individual rounds honestly. Just wanted to know if you thought it played a big part, or any significant part at all in the fight.


I mean from time to time, he would bully JMM out of the clinches when he wanted to get close. Floyd would probably still win, his jab to the head and body was the most important factor in the fight IMO, but JMM might have done better could he negotiate space at close quarters. And his punches, even when landing flush or to the body, didn't even seem to move Floyd at times. My only point is that while they may have been numerically close, Floyd wore the weight much better. Duran on the other hand went on to prove he could hang with a REAL middleweight, and was already the better more accomplished fighter, so that's why I picked the Duran win. Just fleshing out my reasoning. Duran was a more competent filled out middle than JMM was a welter.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Chavez still stays at numero uno.
> 
> Olivares, Saldivar, and Sanchez are the ones i keep changing around...after reading this thread, and watching that fight against Legra, i have it:
> 
> ...


Yeah, you just described me exact on that matter. :lol:

What do you think of the little flat nosed Panamanian as I know you enjoy and respect all styles? Unlike some of these Hagler cunts (not you :smile) who try to hype up Duran as a MW opponent, I actually like Marcel all his own. He's very aesthetically pleasing to me: sharp technique, beautiful right hand leads, head feints, great lateral movement, slick footwork moving in-and-out of range... very skilled guy. Not all that surprising he beat Arguello with relative ease imo but still a great, defining W to go out on. The Shibata robbery pisses me off.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah, you just described me exact on that matter. :lol:
> 
> What do you think of the little flat nosed Panamanian as I know you enjoy and respect all styles? Unlike some of these Hagler cunts (not you :smile) who try to hype up Duran as a MW opponent, I actually like Marcel all his own. He's very aesthetically pleasing to me: sharp technique, beautiful right hand leads, head feints, great lateral movement, slick footwork moving in-and-out of range... very skilled guy. Not all that surprising he beat Arguello with relative ease imo but still a great, defining W to go out on. The Shibata robbery pisses me off.


Truth be told, i haven't seen a whole alot of him...I've seen the Arguello win, the Duran lost, and some clips of him here and there, but i admit there is a lot i need to see of him still.

What bouts would you recommend?


----------



## Divi253 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I mean from time to time, he would bully JMM out of the clinches when he wanted to get close. Floyd would probably still win, his jab to the head and body was the most important factor in the fight IMO, but JMM might have done better could he negotiate space at close quarters. And his punches, even when landing flush or to the body, didn't even seem to move Floyd at times. My only point is that while they may have been numerically close, Floyd wore the weight much better. Duran on the other hand went on to prove he could hang with a REAL middleweight, and was already the better more accomplished fighter, so that's why I picked the Duran win. Just fleshing out my reasoning. Duran was a more competent filled out middle than JMM was a welter.


:nod


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Floyd had strength advantage cause he's ridiculously strong + a-side meth


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How are you ordering Saldivar, Olivarez and JCC these days? Sal on the outside looking in.


The reverse of this :good :smoke

Ok wait Sal looking in!?


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

I'll be sure to take strength into account when picking fights for now on....


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

I'd like to wrestle Mayweather just to see how actually strong this bugger is.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Truth be told, i haven't seen a whole alot of him...I've seen the Arguello win, the Duran lost, and some clips of him here and there, but i admit there is a lot i need to see of him still.
> 
> What bouts would you recommend?


Unfortunately (but conveniently I guess) there isn't a whole lot of him out there to be seen. Flea uploaded the Shibata and Gomez fights a while back, both wins (and performances) against a couple of top drawer featherweights. He made Gomez look like a fucking bum in there.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I'd like to wrestle Mayweather just to see how actually strong this bugger is.


Floyd outmaneuvers his opponents and superior leverage to nuetralize his opponents ability to attack

Marquez merely got the same shit that Hatton and Mosley got

No one has ever outmuscled Floyd in clinches. If Floyd feels he is losing in clinches ala Cotto or Guerrero he will wrap up and force the ref to seperate

Floyd isnt strong, he is crafty and uses his elbows, forearms and positioning to outmanuever his opponents

Floyd abd Bradley expose what keeps Marquez from truly being in the top tier of ATGs a dominant jab to back faster opponents up.

Nobody is ever gonna beat Floyd without a jab. We saw that with Alvarez its just not gonna happen you have to be able to force Floyd tooce backwards if you can you can be a lightweight or a junior middleweight its not gonna matter


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I'd like to wrestle Mayweather just to see how actually strong this bugger is.


I never say this but this is the least heterosexual thing I've seen you type.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> I never say this but this is the least heterosexual thing I've seen you type.


:rofl ops


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Floyd outmaneuvers his opponents and superior leverage to nuetralize his opponents ability to attack
> 
> Marquez merely got the same shit that Hatton and Mosley got
> 
> ...


Mayweather has a ridiculously good and hard jab when he uses it as well. And a good counter right over top other's jab. He's a tough one :yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> By the way, Arguello-Legra KO1 is impressive, anyway you slice it.


Arguello wouldn't of had a loss after the Marcel fight all the way up until Jose Luis Ramirez (well, Pryor officially) if the Vilomar Fernandez fight had been a 15-rounder. I was so happy when Duran put that little bastard away.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Whatta poll. Mayhaters out in full force :-(


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Whatta poll. Mayhaters out in full force :-(


CHB is a JoyBoy haven.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Whatta poll. Mayhaters out in full force :-(


Hagler ain't getting my vote.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> CHB is a JoyBoy haven.


_"When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.

"The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that"_ -- Jack Fiske

I hope that motherfucker died a horrible death.

On the contrary, if you've seen Palomino(e) getting molested by Duran's right hand, array of feints and shocking hand speed you hear him being mentioned alongside Ray Robinson with a non-senile Larry Merchant exclaiming that he's one of the greatest fighters in history pound for pound. In '79, pre-SRL.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> CHB is a JoyBoy haven.


Me, Bball, Cellz, Handsy O, divi, MW, KW....uhm..Reppin I think....Joyboys are far less common than the Floyd "detractors" on this site I think.

Especially when it comes to having to compare him with even the fattest Duran and Hagler.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hagler ain't getting my vote.


:jjj :happy



Hands of Iron said:


> _"When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.
> 
> "The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that"_ -- Jack Fiske
> 
> ...


:rofl

It's Ike Williams though :yep


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Nagler @Hands of Iron this killed me :rofl


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Whatta poll. Mayhaters out in full force :-(


Floyd losing in a poll? NO
You can put just about anyone from the past and Floyd would lose.
Remember ESB?
Chavez vs Floyd
Pea vs Floyd
"prime" Shane vs Floyd
"prime" Oscar vs Floyd
"Prime" Tito vs Floyd
"prime" Kostya vs Floyd
Floyd loses to them all

and thats not even the resume poll LMAO.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Me, Bball, Cellz, Handsy O, divi, MW, KW....uhm..Reppin I think....Joyboys are far less common than the Floyd "detractors" on this site I think.


Pimp C, tliang, Hook!, PBFred, FloydPatterson, Leon, PrinceN, DaCrooked, oibighead...trust me, you're in good company.

Duran's the better fighter and filled out better at the weight. I understand the fact Floyd dominated in a way Hagler didn't, but to me that only comes into play if the opponents are similarly situated, and they weren't.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :jjj :happy
> 
> :rofl
> 
> It's Ike Williams though :yep


Marcel getting dissed again (though he seemed to be talking 135 only). Buchanan & DeJesus were elite lightweights. I can see the criticism for Bizarro & 'Leonica' Ortiz, but Fernandez was a tough little shit who gave a lot of movement and could spoil very effectively. He seemed to step his game up for the occasion and put together a nice little resume there, was rated top three when Duran fought him. Has a win over Ray Lampkin whom was #1 when Duran defended against him and often see listed above Fernandez, though it's really negligible to me at that point because there's just no way, aside from a loaded gun to my head I'm going to sit there and watch Vilomar Fernandez's career set.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hagler ain't getting my vote.





Bogotazo said:


> Pimp C, tliang, Hook!, PBFred, FloydPatterson, Leon, PrinceN, DaCrooked, oibighead...trust me, you're in good company.
> 
> Duran's the better fighter and filled out better at the weight. I understand the fact Floyd dominated in a way Hagler didn't, but to me that only comes into play if the opponents are similarly situated, and they weren't.


Yes but only a few of the JoyBoys voted in the poll. JohnAnthony EVT'd this whole thread with the Mayweather vote :err Surely he chose wrong :lol: Or hates Hagler even more.



Hands of Iron said:


> Marcel getting dissed again. Buchanan & DeJesus were elite lightweights. I can see the criticism for Bizarro & 'Leonica' Ortiz, but Fernandez was a tough little shit who gave a lot of movement and could spoil very effectively. He seemed to step his game up for the occasion and put together a nice little resume there, was rated top three when Duran fought him. Has a win over Ray Lampkin whom was #1 when Duran defended against him and often see listed above Fernandez, though it's really negligible to me at that point because there's just no way, aside from a loaded gun to my head I'm going to sit there and watch Vilomar Fernandez's career set.


Well Duran was at lightweight for 10 god damn years clearly this guy had his burt bienstock on when he was writing that post. Duran isn't going to look amazing every time he fights :lol:

Yet probably more than half the time he actually did.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Pimp C, tliang, Hook!, PBFred, FloydPatterson, Leon, PrinceN, DaCrooked, oibighead...trust me, you're in good company.
> 
> Duran's the better fighter and filled out better at the weight. I understand the fact Floyd dominated in a way Hagler didn't, but to me that only comes into play if the opponents are similarly situated, and they weren't.


that may be true.... but "Flomos" don't band together like Floyd haters' do though. 
The daily resume talk, the atg talk, the he duck talk, the pac talk, the fab4 talk, the "in prime" atg talk (smh), the cherrypicking talk and etc. CHB is a lot less annoying than ESB. For like 5 years str8 ESB would have like 20 Floyd threads everyday.

Floyd distractors gives no ground to any of those topics ^^^^^


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> that may be true.... but "Flomos" don't band together like Floyd haters' do though.
> The daily resume talk, the atg talk, the he duck talk, the pac talk, the fab4 talk, the "in prime" atg talk (smh), the cherrypicking talk and etc. CHB is a lot less annoying than ESB. For like 5 years str8 ESB would have like 20 Floyd threads everyday.


I'm talking about here on CHB. The Pactards are nearly all extinct, and vehement Floyd detractors are a handful that don't band together and rarely post. Gander, Hermit, rare posts from them.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm probably not a true joyboy though -- I'll argue against him depending on the fighters involved and my particular mood.


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> that may be true.... but *"Flomos" don't band together* like Floyd haters' do though.
> The daily resume talk, the atg talk, the he duck talk, the pac talk, the fab4 talk, the "in prime" atg talk (smh), the cherrypicking talk and etc. CHB is a lot less annoying than ESB. For like 5 years str8 ESB would have like 20 Floyd threads everyday.
> 
> Floyd distractors gives no ground to any of those topics ^^^^^


How often do you disagree with such brilliant minds like MichiganWarrior and Baldhead slick? You're so embedded into the whole "flomo/hater/pactard" crap that you can't ever enter a thread w/o the intent to immediately defend FMjr regardless of what's said.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm probably not a true joyboy though -- I'll argue against him depending on the fighters involved and my particular mood.


Yeah, same. But back in the day Floyd needed some back up.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm talking about here on CHB. The Pactards are nearly all extinct, and vehement Floyd detractors are a handful that don't band together and rarely post. Gander, Hermit, rare posts from them.


CHB is a haven compare to home, where there got self replicating trolls making 10 different accounts every other week.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Mal said:


> How often do you disagree with such brilliant minds like MichiganWarrior and Baldhead slick? You're so embedded into the whole "flomo/hater/pactard" crap that you can't ever enter a thread w/o the intent to immediately defend FMjr regardless of what's said.


I didn't agree with his definition of being Floored.... does that count?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm talking about here on CHB. The Pactards are nearly all extinct, and vehement Floyd detractors are a handful that don't band together and rarely post. Gander, Hermit, rare posts from them.


Hagler really ain't the top bloke to go against Money May with tbh. Floyd beat top guys over five divisions and Nag's 160 wins arent enough to just overpower that without some mean hassle. Hagler is No Duran. No Leonard.



turbotime said:


> Yeah, same. But back in the day Floyd needed some back up.


True that.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I didn't agree with his definition of being Floored.... does that count?


More than you know! :cheers


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> True that.


It's so different now....Whenever people tell me now "zomg Floyds the best Ive ever seen"

Ok...but really like how much have you seen? I mean really? Ali and Tyson? Maybe the Leonard/Hearns rematch?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hagler really ain't the top bloke to go against Money May with tbh. Floyd beat top guys over five divisions and Nag's 160 wins arent enough to just overpower that without some mean hassle. Hagler is No Duran. No Leonard.


I was thinking the other day that there's an argument for Floyd over Hagler in ATG rankings. Kind of hard to get past the Hearns wins and the Duran win though, even if they aren't perfect, along with his dominance over the division.

Your thoughts on Chavez vs Floyd/Pac in ranking?

(PM me your thoughts on all this please.)


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Your thoughts on Chavez vs Floyd/Pac in ranking?
> 
> (PM me your thoughts on all this please.)


Fuckers keeping secrets now!?! :verysad


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Im a pactard. You fucks arent going to get rid of us easy


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> It's so different now....Whenever people tell me now "zomg Floyds the best Ive ever seen"
> 
> Ok...but really like how much have you seen? I mean really? Ali and Tyson? Maybe the Leonard/Hearns rematch?


A lot of people jumped on FLoyd's bandwagon after Canelo for reason.

I wonder if that's what happened to Duran after he beat SRL. :hey or SRL beat Duran :hey and etc.
I'm bout to get jumped.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Im a pactard. You fucks arent going to get rid of us easy


Man you are about a loss away from being extinct. If Pac doesn't beat Bradley you guys would need to build additional pylons.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> It's so different now....Whenever people tell me now "zomg Floyds the best Ive ever seen"
> 
> Ok...but really like how much have you seen? I mean really? Ali and Tyson? Maybe the Leonard/Hearns rematch?


There are very few people in the world actually fit to compile an ATG list and I don't even consider myself one of them, really. It's an overwhelming amount to consume bro and though we - and really most of the posters on this forum - know more than 99% of people, it still isn't enough to make the definitive statements we throw around. I'd literally have to dedicate my life to it and that isn't plausible.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Fuckers keeping secrets now!?! :verysad


The world is not ready for some of the shit said. Especially from HoI.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Its all good. Pac is fighting one of the best p4p fighters in boxing. Meanwhile floyds fighting amir khan an shit :rofl


tliang1000 said:


> Man you are about a loss away from being extinct. If Pac doesn't beat Bradley you guys would need to build additional pylons.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Fuckers keeping secrets now!?! :verysad


You don't call me no mo... About boxing.

No, stop it :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> There are very few people in the world actually fit to compile an ATG list and I don't even consider myself one of them, really. It's an overwhelming amount to consume bro and though we - and really most of the posters on this forum - know more than 99% of people, it still isn't enough to make the definitive statements we throw around. I'd literally have to dedicate my life to it and that isn't plausible.


Yep. I was thinking of a top 20 (I did one in my list fun thread, well tried) and just shook my head at it :lol:



Bogotazo said:


> The world is not ready for some of the shit said. Especially from HoI.


Pft. I'm always ready, we would do this all night at the old house :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You don't call me no mo... About boxing.
> 
> No, stop it :lol:


:rofl You were hardly in the best 5 fighters since Ali thread :verysad


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Its all good. Pac is fighting one of the best p4p fighters in boxing. Meanwhile floyds fighting amir khan an shit :rofl


No he is retaking his exam again. Like retaking a course to boost his GPA. After Bradley he will have to take his yearly JMM exam too.:deal


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm talking about here on CHB. The Pactards are nearly all extinct, and vehement Floyd detractors are a handful that don't band together and rarely post. Gander, Hermit, rare posts from them.





turbotime said:


> Yep. I was thinking of a top 20 (I did one in my list fun thread, well tried) and just shook my head at it :lol:
> 
> Pft. I'm always ready, we would do this all night at the old house :lol:


A lot of guys have a better couple of wins at the top of their ledgers than Corrales and Castillo. Quite a few, in pretty recent times. If top wins were a large portion of your criteria, it's amazing how many fighters you could argue over him. That's mostly what it was about. I made a large rant about Mike McCallum too.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

All jokes aside. im not a pactard, I stopped carin around 08 after the diaz fight. But the amount of shit tht gets slung at him on here makes me like him. Why people diss the dude so much i have no clue. But I keep it real, at least hes fighting an elite p4p level fighter. Meanwhile floyds chargin 80 bills for a garbage ass fight


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Who has the better resume. Manny or floyd?


Hands of Iron said:


> A lot of guys have a better couple of wins at the top of their ledgers than Corrales and Castillo. Quite a few, in pretty recent times. If top wins were a large portion of your criteria, it's amazing how many fighters you could argue over him. That's mostly what it was about. I made a large rant about Mike McCallum too.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> A lot of guys have a better couple of wins at the top of their ledgers than Corrales and Castillo. Quite a few, in pretty recent times. If top wins were a large portion of your criteria, it's amazing how many fighters you could argue over him. That's mostly what it was about. I made a large rant about Mike McCallum too.


Saxton has Basilio and fucking Gavilan :lol: He looks pretty good on film too.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :rofl You were hardly in the best 5 fighters since Ali thread :verysad


You dissing Julio like fuck in there :rofl

I just couldn't decide on the 5th after Jones, Duran, Pea and SRL. We did that top ten thread earlier but I second guessed it all and scraped it.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm talking about here on CHB. The Pactards are nearly all extinct, and vehement Floyd detractors are a handful that don't band together and rarely post. Gander, Hermit, rare posts from them.





turbotime said:


> Saxton has Basilio and *fucking Gavilan* :lol: He looks pretty good on film too.


A lot of fighters have Gavilan. Via robbery. :yep


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You dissing Julio like fuck in there :rofl
> 
> I just couldn't decide on the 5th after Jones, Duran, Pea and SRL. We did that top ten thread earlier but I second guessed it all and scraped it.


:deal Spinks

I don't know when, but I got super high on Spinks, I think it was the last throes of the old house when I was chatting with jorod about him and watched for like 2 days straight. :jjj


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> A lot of fighters have Gavilan. Via robbery. :yep


So do people against Castillo :sad5

Flea has it on his channel, but it's kind of a bore. His channel is ridiculous.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Brnxhands said:


> Who has the better resume. Manny or floyd?


Manny, but there's a lot of strings attached such as me not thinking he's ever got the best of JMM and finding it difficult to rate the Morales wins. Even had to go and take away from his 2nd best (after MAB I) against Cotto(e).


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

turbotime said:


> :deal Spinks
> 
> I don't know when, but I got super high on Spinks, I think it was the last throes of the old house when I was chatting with jorod about him and watched for like 2 days straight. :jjj


Michael Spinks is one of the most underrated boxers to have laced em up. His icing by Tyson is probably a large part of that. He was arguably the best LtHW there was, and one of the few I'd take over RJJ there.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Manny, but there's a lot of strings attached such as me not thinking he's ever got the best of JMM and finding it difficult to rate the Morales wins. Even had to go and take away from his 2nd best (after MAB I) against Cotto(e).


That and his defeats against unknowns and short prime with possible ped usage.
On paper Pac's looks prettier but real talk no.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> So do people against Castillo :sad5
> 
> Flea has it on his channel, but it's kind of a bore. His channel is ridiculous.


By the time Flea hits 40, he will be the most knowledgeable boxing person on earth. I'm dead serious :lol: This is no fucking game to Flea. He's got a great taste in lesser known guys though, I love Marcel and Sumbu as well.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Mal said:


> Michael Spinks is one of the most underrated boxers to have laced em up. His icing by Tyson is probably a large part of that. He was arguably the best LtHW there was, and one of the few I'd take over RJJ there.


:deal

Spinks is terribly scary for any light heavyweight to ever put on gloves. Great physical attributes on top of his boxing. He's easy to watch too


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> By the time Flea hits 40, he will be the most knowledgeable boxing person on earth. I'm dead serious :lol: This is no fucking game to Flea. He's got a great taste in lesser known guys though, I love Marcel and Sumbu as well.


Sumbu is awesome, @Flea Man actually got me into him as well I think.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

turbotime said:


> :deal
> 
> Spinks is terribly scary for any light heavyweight to ever put on gloves. Great physical attributes on top of his boxing. He's easy to watch too


The Iron Mike fight aside, was also an excellent HW at the time. I think he'd be able to do a number on most in the HW division today, save for the K bros, although it would not be out of the question for him to beat either.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Even still. When I get reminded that his first title was at flyweight i can forgive some shit. Drained or malnourished down there or not


Hands of Iron said:


> Manny, but there's a lot of strings attached such as me not thinking he's ever got the best of JMM and finding it difficult to rate the Morales wins. Even had to go and take away from his 2nd best (after MAB I) against Cotto(e).


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Mal said:


> The Iron Mike fight aside, was also an excellent HW at the time. I think he'd be able to do a number on most in the HW division today, save for the K bros, although it would not be out of the question for him to beat either.


the KBros don't have a win as good as Holmes 1, combined.


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

turbotime said:


> the KBros don't have a win as good as Holmes 1, combined.


haha very true!! They also don't have as good a win combined as Rahman does. :smile


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Saldivar-Marcel...Who you got on that one, Flea??
> 
> Oh and thanks for that upload! :good


Both men had immense 15 round stamina. Both worked their way into the fight as it went on.

A few reports have Laguna being robbed against Saldivar but some have Saldivar outworking him; looking at the footage, it's clear to see it was one of 'those' fights were one man did the cleaner, more pleasing work but not enough of it and the other was scrappier but more consistent with his output.

Laguna was a more cultured mover and jabber than Marcel, but Marcel was more rounded, he could back his man up and put the pressure on just as well as he could slip and counter, and boy did he do that brilliantly.

As for the fight, I don't think Marcel is going to be able to rough Saldivar up much, though he will find a place for his accurate right hand. Saldivar, despite being short, was very strong and hit harder than Marcel. I don't see a knockout either way here, it's almost a guarantee to be a battle of wits in the early going and a technical war late on, with both trying to slow the other down so they can implement their own high-octane game.

I think Marcel, being well-rounded, was suited against boxers because he could box with them and then shift up. Saldivar was suited to boxers because he was a smart little southpaw who could beat them up. I'm going to go with Saldivar to be able to spring in and out and launch his brutal volley of punches with greater effect and win an extremely close decision down the stretch.

As talented and smart as Marcel was, I don't see him with a distinct stylistic advantage here and he doesn't have a big punch to get additional points by dropping the Mexican, who whilst extremely tough and hard to stop could be clipped and buzzed.

I'll favour Saldivar. Probably an 8-7 or 9-6 decision in a truly epic fight with lots of shifts in the ebb and flow.

And no worries, plenty more where that came from :good


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Mal said:


> haha very true!! They also don't have as good a win combined as Rahman does. :smile


Fucking Kbros. I'm not sure they have a win as good as that version of Rahman himself :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> A lot of people jumped on FLoyd's bandwagon after Canelo for reason.
> 
> I wonder if that's what happened to Duran after he beat SRL. :hey or SRL beat Duran :hey and etc.
> I'm bout to get jumped.


Nah mayne, Duran was getting a lot of love before he beat SRL.






Gonna have to sit through one of the best performances ever though to see how they speak of him throughout the fight. Torture.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> So do people against Castillo :sad5
> 
> Flea has it on his channel, but it's kind of a bore. His channel is ridiculous.


Why thank you. I only upload them so you guys can see them and provoke debate. So the fighters get their dues and don't get forgotten.



Hands of Iron said:


> By the time Flea hits 40, he will be the most knowledgeable boxing person on earth. I'm dead serious :lol: This is no fucking game to Flea. He's got a great taste in lesser known guys though, I love Marcel and Sumbu as well.


Probably be a Howard Hughes-esque recluse and a mess. Or dead.

All jokes aside, we'll all be learning 'til the day we die. There are some fighters in plain sight that you'd think I'd be well versed on and I haven't even got the foggiest about.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> A lot of people jumped on FLoyd's bandwagon after Canelo for reason.
> 
> I wonder if that's what happened to Duran after he beat SRL. :hey or SRL beat Duran :hey and etc.
> I'm bout to get jumped.


Duran was actually very popular prior to beating SRL.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah mayne, Duran was getting a lot of love before he beat SRL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:lol: What a chore.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Vilomar Fernandez's career set.


Viruet fights were Duran's best defenses - Viruet trolled the shit out of Duran.:smile

By the way, have you seen Villa and Thompson fights?

Thompson was bull-strong and reportedly Duran's rib and the Villa fight is a rare opportunity to see a young Duran fighting in almost pure counterpunching mode.

Duran-Villa is basically Duran's attempt at Rigo impersonation.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Mal said:


> Duran was actually very popular prior to beating SRL.


I was trying to play devil's advocate


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Spinks is terribly scary for any light heavyweight to ever put on gloves.


Conteh's left hand had more talent than all Spinks brothers combined.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Conteh's left hand had more talent than all Spinks brothers combined.


Mike might be one of the few guys with a more varied left than Conteh.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Mal said:


> Duran was actually very popular prior to beating Duran





Flea Man said:


> :lol: What a chore.


Contrary to Duranimal's previous claims, Duran got a lot of love from the American press towards the end of his lightweight reign and on. The most widely printed and circulated sports magazine in the country (which covers a multitude of different sports and is anything but a boxing mag) was giving him almost as much as the Ring. @Bogotazo Floyd ain't gotten a single cover feature to himself, which probably also speaks to boxing's decline in overall national popularity, even though he does do huge revenue through the PPV market. I'll tag @FelixTrinidad as well since he's usually fascinated by things of this sort.























































Some of the articles in there are fucking priceless too :lol: A couple excerpts from the SRL-Floyd thread you might get a kick out of in regards to his lax attitude toward training.

January 1978:

_*Equally vocal, the two also are equally dedicated: neither will go down in history as an advocate of hard work. Both would rather play than train, and sometimes both have been known to play while training. But for this fight, the two old rivals had been training for weeks, DeJesus by choice, Duran more or less by trickery.

"Sometimes getting Duran into the gym can be a very difficult thing," says Eleta, who is the champion's multimillionaire patron as well as his manager. "His trouble is that he has been champion for 5 years. He knows everyone in Panama, and they will give him anything he wants. With all that, getting him back to work is a chore. But this time I played a little trick. I told him that he had a tune-up fight in Panama before DeJesus. He trained hard at home for a month. Then I told him the tune-up fight had been called off, and I sent him to Los Angeles to train. Of course, there was no such tune-up. But he had worked very hard for four extra weeks and now is in the best shape of his career. He laughed when I told him of my trick."*

For trainers, Duran has Ray Arcel, 78, and Freddie Brown, 71; in the last half century they have worked with 38 world champions. They seem to have a special rapport with Duran, forcing him to train industriously, if not happily. After every fight he fires them; before the next fight he rehires them.

"Our trouble is that the trainers he has in Panama can't handle him, they can't control him," Eleta says. "And he knows this is not good for him. Only Brown and Arcel can control him. That is why before every fight he calls me and says, 'Where are they? I need them. Please call and get them for me.' "

Under the ancient pair's exacting tutelage-and with the extra month's work behind him-*Duran's usual struggle to make the 135-pound weight limit was easier.* His only problem in Los Angeles was in finding sparring partners, whom the Panamanian pounds without mercy.

When Duran works, everybody works. In one sparring session he broke the nose of Mike Youngblood, a 160-pounder out of Philadelphia with a 14-0 record. Duran's handlers immediately were off in search of new fodder. They came back with a kid named Jorge Morales.

*"Unfortunately, we overlooked the fact that Morales was a Puerto Rican like DeJesus," says Luis Henriquez, a Duran adviser. "It wasn't a smart move."

During a sparring session Morales began to taunt Duran with suggestions of what DeJesus was going to do to him. "He kick your ass," Morales said. Duran was not amused. And then, when Morales insulted Panama, Duran began ripping off his gloves so that he could have a go at Morales with bare knuckles.

Wisely, Morales fled the ring. His father was less fortunate. Leaping into the ring, the senior Morales went after Duran, who dispatched him with a right hand to the head. Suddenly the ring was full of people, few of them friendly, and Duran, once more the violent child of mean streets, began whacking away at everyone within range.

"It was unnerving," says Tony Rivera, one of Duran's assistant trainers. "We got Duran in the corner, but he broke loose and started all over again. He just ran around the ring looking for people to hit."*

When word of the brawl reached Las Vegas, promoter Don King's hair stood up even straighter. "He could have been injured seriously," he said. "What else can happen before this fight?" King had worked for two years to put together the match, ever since DeJesus had won the WBC version of the title from Ishimatsu Suzuki in May of 1976. The problems had been monumental.

"It was a job just to get the two managers of the fighters to even think about a match," King says. "They had fought twice and neither wanted to fight a third time. First I convinced DeJesus. But the hard part was convincing Eleta. Then, when we did agree, trying to find a site that pleased him was almost impossible. One place was too cold; the next too hot. A third place, somewhere in Africa, was O.K., but then Eleta didn't think he could get Duran's money out. He finally said yes to Las Vegas."

That was only the beginning of the promotion problems. There were lawsuits and threatened lawsuits, and the fight was off and on again. "What else can happen?" King moaned_

June 1979:

_It was the turn of Roberto Duran, bringing a sense of almost surrealistic beauty to savagery, fighting for the first time as a welterweight and, after 10 brutal rounds, chasing Carlos Palomino, the former WBC champion, into retirement. Duran had been awesome among the lightweights, whom he ruled without mercy for seven years. He may be even better at 147 pounds. The higher weight slowed Duran not at all. He bewildered Palomino with flicking head and shoulder feints; he battered him with punches thrown at blinding speed. At times, just for fun, he feinted from the left, feinted from the right, and then, with Palomino in a flux of frantic confusion, stepped back and flashed a wolfish grin as Palomino untangled himself. Duran won 99-90 on all three cards.

*"Aw, I wasn't that good," he said after this, his 66th victory in 67 fights. "I didn't train that hard in Panama. I guess I am just lazy. But next time I will train very hard. Next time I will be very good."*_

June 1980:

_Early of a morning five years ago, while training for a fight in New York, Roberto Duran put on his sweat suit, joined his perpetual shadow, Trainer Freddie Brown, and started out of the Hotel Mayflower to do his roadwork in Central Park. But it was raining when they hit the street. Not wanting to expose his fighter to the chill of the elements, certainly not on the eve of a fight, Brown waved Duran back inside.

"If it stops raining," Freddie said, "I'll call you."

Duran returned to his room, Brown to his. Half an hour later Brown peeked out the window and saw that the rain had stopped. He went to Duran's room.

*"No rain," said Freddie. "We go."

Duran waved the trainer away. "No," the fighter said. Duran was overweight, as usual, and needed the work to trim down to 135 pounds, the ceiling for the lightweight division. Over the last few years-ever since Duran had pounded Ken Buchanan loose from his lightweight title in 1972-Brown had served not only as Duran's chief cut man, counselor and chaperon, but also as his conscience, a stern reminder that Roberto must work to win.

"Come on," said Freddie, "ya gotta go, ya gotta run."

Duran was standing at the door of the room, facing it, when he exploded in a rage. He suddenly threw his awesome straight right hand into the door. The thwack resounded like a thunderclap. On the adjacent wall a framed picture fell to the floor, its pane of glass shattering. Saying nothing, Brown left the room and headed for the lobby. Duran soon joined him and set out on his run.*_


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Viruet fights were Duran's best defenses - Viruet trolled the shit out of Duran.:smile
> 
> By the way, have you seen Villa and Thompson fights?
> 
> ...


:lol:

Thompson yes, Villa only a highlight.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

:clap:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yes but only a few of the JoyBoys voted in the poll. JohnAnthony EVT'd this whole thread with the Mayweather vote :err Surely he chose wrong :lol: Or hates Hagler even more.
> 
> Well Duran was at lightweight for 10 god damn years clearly this guy had his burt bienstock on when he was writing that post. Duran isn't going to look amazing every time he fights :lol:
> 
> Yet probably more than half the time he actually did.


I truly do enjoy his welterweight contests just as, if not more despite the very short stint.






It doesn't hurt that SRL I & Palomino are probably my two favorite performances from him (followed by DeJesus III, Barkley and Moore). He also beat one of Flea's Amateur Ugandan All-Stars Joseph Nsubuga, though no Kalule he captured Bronze at the '74 World Championships, would look to be coming into his own and probably would've had a real shot if not for the African boycott of the '76 Montreal Games @*Flea Man* ?

Not only that, but he was actually a ranked welter at the time Duran fought him and boxed very well for the first couple of rounds. Then Duran cornered him and shit got real ugly in a hurry. If you're a tad sick in the head, that means fucking awesome. Absolutely ferocious exchanges in the third and fourth rounds. Dooran's arsenal (particularly the right hand that he kept high, cocked and locked) was nothing to play with. Not the last time a guy would be sadly matched so early with Roberto...






You seen this fight @*SJS20* @*Bogotazo*

Believe this version may be short the 1st round. Good stuff on the commentary though with Clancy and Dundee: "Sugar Ray will fight ANY welterweight, that's not a problem" <--- fucking aye. :yep

Can't help but notice Roberto's rather plump figure here either knowing how he was about training... Then to contrast it with the ripped to shreds guy who showed up in Montreal conditioned and prepared out of his mind. Leonard didn't even know what hit him.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I truly do enjoy his welterweight contests just as, if not more despite the very short stint. It doesn't hurt that SRL I & Palomino are probably my two favorite performances from him (followed by DeJesus III, Barkley and Moore). He also beat one of Flea's Amateur Ugandan All-Stars Joseph Nsubuga, though no Kalule he captured Bronze at the '74 World Championships, would look to be coming into his own and probably would've had a real shot if not for the African boycott of the '76 Montreal Games @Flea Man ?
> 
> Not only that, but he was actually a ranked welter at the time Duran fought him and boxed very well for the first couple of rounds. Then Duran cornered him and shit got real ugly in a hurry. If you're a tad sick in the head, that means fucking awesome. Absolutely ferocious exchanges in the third and fourth rounds. Dooran's arsenal (particularly the right hand that he kept high, cocked and locked) was nothing to play with. Not the last time a guy would be sadly matched so early with Roberto...
> 
> ...


I think Wassaja would've went instead of him at middle, he won Gold at the pre-Olympic tourney. At welter there was some killer puncher whose name escapes me.

Still a good amateur and a member of the Kampala City Bombers was Nsubuga. I've got the full Duran fight somewhere I'll try and dig it out and get it up.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Why thank you. I only upload them so you guys can see them and provoke debate. So the fighters get their dues and don't get forgotten.


:good I'm literally subscribed to you and jacksfilms :lol:


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Gonna have to sit through one of the best performances ever though to see how they speak of him throughout the fight. Torture.[/QUOTE]

The best part though is when they say that Duran's father's death had no effect on him at all :rofl


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I fucking love Duran vs. Palomino. What a display.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I fucking love Duran vs. Palomino. What a display.


The way he counter punched off the ropes :happy


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> The way he counter punched off the ropes :happy


Yes! His torso is like a swivel.


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Nice stuff @Hands of Iron!


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Contrary to Duranimal's previous claims, Duran got a lot of love from the American press towards the end of his lightweight reign and on. The most widely printed and circulated sports magazine in the country (which covers a multitude of different sports and is anything but a boxing mag) was giving him almost as much as the Ring. @Bogotazo Floyd ain't gotten a single cover feature to himself, which probably also speaks to boxing's decline in overall national popularity, even though he does do huge revenue through the PPV market. I'll tag @FelixTrinidad as well since he's usually fascinated by things of this sort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These genuinely made me laugh. :lol:

Can't believe that @PityTheFool prefers Sugar Ray atsch


----------



## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I truly do enjoy his welterweight contests just as, if not more despite the very short stint.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> These genuinely made me laugh. :lol:
> 
> Can't believe that @PityTheFool prefers Sugar Ray atsch


Lemon is bitter,Sugar is sweet.
And Ray Charles Leonard ain't nothin but the sweetest damn fighter of all.

And good to see Barrera wasn't the only one who made a Morales his bitch.:yep


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> The best part though is when they say that Duran's father's death had no effect on him at all :rofl


Yeah, sometimes I forget that Duran's dad was a Mexican-American who lived most of his life here in Phoenix when he got out of the service. Don't think he ever really knew his grandfather.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

SJS20 said:


> These genuinely made me laugh. :lol:
> 
> Can't believe that @PityTheFool prefers Sugar Ray atsch


Can't believe anybody prefers Hagler over either. They seem to get too caught up in that gullyness/hard route mystique. Marvin decided all his own to cut his amateur career short, Leonard's gym didn't even have a fucking actual ring until the spring before he won his gold medal over an ATG amateur at the '76 Olympics and he started boxing in the early 1970s. He was all but picking loose change out from under the sofa to scrounge out enough to travel to competitions outside of Baltimore/Palmer Park. He earned everything he ever got. Duran was even wrong on his projection and was later pretty damn thankful Leonard blessed him with the paycheck that was their third fight.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Both men had immense 15 round stamina. Both worked their way into the fight as it went on.
> 
> A few reports have Laguna being robbed against Saldivar but some have Saldivar outworking him; looking at the footage, it's clear to see it was one of 'those' fights were one man did the cleaner, more pleasing work but not enough of it and the other was scrappier but more consistent with his output.
> 
> ...


:good

Lets assume that Rigondeaux looks just as good at 126lbs like he does at 122lbs...How would you see a match up between him and Saldivar??

Would Rigo suffer the same fate of the pure boxers/stylists who went against Saldivar?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Lemon is bitter,Sugar is sweet.
> And Ray Charles Leonard ain't nothin but the sweetest damn fighter of all.
> 
> And good to see Barrera wasn't the only one who made a Morales his bitch.:yep


So he's RCL now instead of SRL.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> :good
> 
> Lets assume that Rigondeaux looks just as good at 126lbs like he does at 122lbs...How would you see a match up between him and Saldivar??
> 
> Would Rigo suffer the same fate of the pure boxers/stylists who went against Saldivar?


I don't really need to see him at 126, he's already fought guys who weigh more than Saldivar or his opponents.

Still think Rigo could probably make 118 on the day and still be pretty strong.

But yeah, he might sting Saldivar with some left hand counters, but Saldivar would bring too much I reckon. That's not a slight on Rigo, I rate Saldivar behind only Pep in the alltime featherweight rankings.

As for Rigo, judging on the small footage of them, I'd take him to beat Attell and Kilbane without much hassle at all. Legra would push Rigo really, really hard, but it'd be great to see both men trying to make each other lead. Winstone has the jab to have a LOT of success but his defence wasn't up to much so Rigo could likely be cute enough to figure out the jab and land the cleaner shots to win a close decision, but Winstone is much, much better at landing his jab at range than Donaire whilst stepping forward.

Marcel would win.

I'm taking Harada as well, though Rigo would shake him up a few times, no doubt. Harada would be too active I think, the way he cuts distance and creates angles with his jab is pretty much second to none I think. He could throw his right hand with no wind up whatsoever and Rigo is not the puncher Medel was so while I think Rigo could set traps and have success he wouldn't be able to dissuade Harada enough from doing his thing.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I rate Saldivar behind only Pep in the alltime featherweight rankings.


Smiling Sandy?



Flea Man said:


> Attell and Kilbane


The fight is rather dissapointing - a boring feint-and-grab fest.

This was no Langford-Jeanette.



Flea Man said:


> slight on Rigo


Pedroza would rip Rigo's balls off.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Smiling Sandy?
> 
> The fight is rather dissapointing - a boring feint-and-grab fest.
> 
> ...


Yep, I got Saldivar higher. By ONE place.

And yes, Kilbane-Attell was disappointing. Criqui smashing Kilbane with a Maidana-esque overhand right was far more impressive.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> El Feo is the ultimate dance machine.





Flea Man said:


> And thanks for the props


You've uploaded LMR - LF Thompson:happy:ibutt


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> You've uploaded LMR - LF Thompson:happy:ibutt


Griffith UD15 Stable coming up :good


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Duran event'd Hagler so hard:wales some die-hard duranoids to this day believe Duran deserved the decision.





turbotime said:


> :rofl
> 
> @duranimal ??


Duranimal is the second biggest Duran fan.

The biggest Duran fan is Duran himself.

He actually said he won the Hagler fight.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> coming up :good


I don't always watch Cunto fights.

But when I do I like to watch fights with no commentary.

Watching Cunto is like watching a more technical/less speed-reliant version of latter-days Floyd fighting middlweights.

Floyd vs middlweweights - sounds crazy, impossible, what if I lose?

The answer is yes, the gap between Cunto and Floyd is that big.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> I don't always watch Cunto fights.
> 
> But when I do I like to watch fights with no commentary.
> 
> ...


Yep, Vargas and Avelar were big guys and big punchers.

There's not much between them and Alvarez skillswise; he is quicker but they hit harder and were more consistent off the front foot.

Floyd is a sharper, better puncher. Canto literally had a fast left hook and footwork. He was a small flyweight with no help from a straw/light fly division.


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

Haggler anything is better than floydo


Sent from my mom's landline
using Tapatalk


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## Sittin Sonny (Jun 10, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> Where was Duran on the pfp rankings ...


Rather highly after coming off a couple big wins that easily equaled if not surpassed Marquez's last couple wins.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Nagler @Hands of Iron this killed me :rofl


"If Hagler were a great fighter, Duran wouldn't have come out for the 8th round, because after the 6th round Roberto was pretty well washed up. He was tired and went 9 rounds with his brain." -- Ray Arcel
@dyna


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> "If Hagler were a great fighter, Duran wouldn't have come out for the 8th round, because after the 6th round Roberto was pretty well washed up. He was tired and went 9 rounds with his brain." -- Ray Arcel
> 
> @dyna


:deal

:lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :rofl Fuck Hagler





Bogotazo said:


> Hagler.


 @Scalinatella

*"If Hagler were a great fighter, Duran wouldn't have come out for the 8th round, because after the 6th round Roberto was pretty well washed up. He was tired and went 9 rounds with his brain." -- Ray Arcel*



dyna said:


> :deal
> 
> :lol:


*"Sugar Ray Leonard one of the keenest students of boxing I've seen in recent years. In that respect he reminds me of another Leonard, the greatest of them all: Benny Leonard. He was the perfect fighter. He was the one guy who could make you do things you didn't want to do. If you were an aggressive fighter, he'd back you up. If you didn't want to lead, if you were a counterpuncher, he made you lead. And he was one of the fastest thinkers in boxing. He was the master of the feint. Ray Leonard is the nearest thing to Benny that I've ever seen."

"Ray Leonard is superb at putting together combinations, throwing a variety of punches with speed and strength. He jabs and hooks and follows through with a right and then hooks again, maybe doubles up on the hook. He's got the guy bewildered. This is an unusual variety, the mark of real championship timber. Ray's able to execute it. He does it as sort of an element of surprise, and he reaches out when you least expect it. And once he hurts you he can finish you. I think he's a pretty good puncher. He may not be what you call a great puncher, but he's a damaging puncher. And with his speed he's able to follow through from one punch to another. There's no telling how great he can become." -- Ray Arcel*

:sxane

@PityTheFool :rofl :deal


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> *"If Hagler were a great fighter, Duran wouldn't have come out for the 8th round, because after the 6th round Roberto was pretty well washed up. He was tired and went 9 rounds with his brain." -- Ray Arcel*
> 
> *"Sugar Ray Leonard one of the keenest students of boxing I've seen in recent years. In that respect he reminds me of another Leonard, the greatest of them all: Benny Leonard. He was the perfect fighter. He was the one guy who could make you do things you didn't want to do. If you were an aggressive fighter, he'd back you up. If you didn't want to lead, if you were a counterpuncher, he made you lead. And he was one of the fastest thinkers in boxing. He was the master of the feint. Ray Leonard is the nearest thing to Benny that I've ever seen."
> 
> ...


When did Arcel say that?

Weird, considering he rated Benny higher than Duran :think


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

To be honest I'm starting to conform to the MAG view that Leonard should indeed rank higher than Roberto. Must remind myself of all the reasons why I hadn't for so so long.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> To be honest I'm starting to conform to the MAG view that Leonard should indeed rank higher than Roberto. Must remind myself of all the reasons why I hadn't for so so long.


Nah, no way. I'm actually not any more certain about anything than I have about Duran>Leonard


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> When did Arcel say that?
> 
> Weird, considering he rated Benny higher than Duran :think


Right here big dog:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126346/9/index.htm

Printed November '79. They praise Benitez's abilities to high hell too At The Time, though I could be thinking of another article. I stress at the time because some people here think were bullshitting and revising history as to how highly regarded these guys were in their day.

EDIT: Yeah, different article. Arcel was saying that before he'd even beat Benitez.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Couldn't believe my ears when Farhood suggested on that shit 30-for-30 documentary that some people saw Leonard as somewhat 'just a little bit' of a protected fighter going into the first Duran fight. Fucking Blasphemy and Impossible... He'd already taken chunks out of the division.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Couldn't believe my ears when Farhood suggested on that shit 30-for-30 documentary that some people saw Leonard as somewhat 'just a little bit' of a protected fighter going into the first Duran fight. Fucking Blasphemy and Impossible... He'd already taken chunks out of the division.


Farhood is shit. His commentary was shit, his writing was shit. He is shit.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> *"If Hagler were a great fighter, Duran wouldn't have come out for the 8th round, because after the 6th round Roberto was pretty well washed up. He was tired and went 9 rounds with his brain." -- Ray Arcel*
> 
> *"Sugar Ray Leonard one of the keenest students of boxing I've seen in recent years. In that respect he reminds me of another Leonard, the greatest of them all: Benny Leonard. He was the perfect fighter. He was the one guy who could make you do things you didn't want to do. If you were an aggressive fighter, he'd back you up. If you didn't want to lead, if you were a counterpuncher, he made you lead. And he was one of the fastest thinkers in boxing. He was the master of the feint. Ray Leonard is the nearest thing to Benny that I've ever seen."
> 
> ...


No denying the old guy knew his onions.Pre-Benitez as well!

I'm enjoying your looting of the SI vaults recently.:smile


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Farhood is shit. His commentary was shit, his writing was shit. He is shit.


SI had some respectable boxing coverage back in the day and again I stress, it's seriously not even their thing. All of those excerpts on Duran earlier in the thread came from there, the Arcel quote from there. I guess people just gave a shit back then a lot more than they do today. This was some good stuff too after the Benitez fight if you have the minutes for it. It's always more interesting to me to travel back into the moment, feeling and reaction as it was happening rather than told in hindsight several decades later.

_The heaviest pressure stemmed from knowing the kind of money he could make if he won the title. Leonard would earn $1 million for the Benitez fight, Benitez $1.2 million, and Sugar Ray knew that if he won there would be more down the line-millions more. He passed the test by scoring a stunning TKO off a deft combination. He beat perhaps the best defensive fighter in boxing in a match that seemed at once a chess match and a manhunt, a tactical exercise in which two fighters stalked each other, slipped and feinted, and countered and probed for weaknesses. "From a technical standpoint, there was more done in this fight than I've seen done for a long time," said Angelo Dundee, Leonard's trainer. "You saw two smart, scientific fighters-two champions in the ring at the same time. They brought the best out of each other."

And, to the extent they did so, they answered some questions about themselves. There was Leonard, at 23 the sport's ascendant star, going after the title in his 26th professional fight-fast, versatile, intelligent and a superb finisher. "My ambition is to retire financially independent, unharmed," Leonard says. "My ambition is not to be just a good fighter. I want to be something great, something special." What was not known was how he would respond to the kind of pressure that so superb a craftsman as Benitez would bring to bear on him; how he would deal with a tricky, ambidextrous opponent; how well he could take punches over the course of a fight; and how he could handle a full 15 rounds-he had never gone more than 10.

And there was Puerto Rico's Benitez, at 21 ring-wise beyond his years: the junior welterweight champion at 17, the youngest titleholder of all time; the welterweight champion at 20; a counter-puncher with quick hands. How would he deal with Leonard's jab, and how would it affect him that he had not fought since March? "We'll find out whether Ray Leonard is the consummate professional that he appears to be," said Jimmy Jacobs, Benitez' manager. "Leonard will be hit more than he has ever been hit in his life. I think it will go 15 rounds, and I'm extremely confident that Wilfred will win." The bettors disagreed, making the champ a 3-to-1 underdog.

As the bout began, the fighters met in the center of the ring in a 30-second staring match, their faces menacingly stony, inches apart. The crowd, rising, cheered them with loud whoops and whistles.

Then Leonard began moving and jabbing, and it appeared that he had found his target, that this might be an early evening. In the first round he tagged Benitez with a sweet hook that came off a jab and righthand, rocking the champ backwards. But Benitez got away. In the third Leonaid caught him again, this time with a cleanly delivered left jab. Benitez went down on the seat of his pants. Up quickly, he took a standing eight-count, and at the bell walked to his corner smiling sheepishly.

Benitez found Leonard with two righthand leads in the fourth, and suddenly Leonard was fighting a different man. "I wasn't aware I was in a championship early because I hit him so easy," Leonard said. "But then he adjusted to my style. It was like looking in a mirror." And Leonard was having trouble hitting his man, especially with the overhand right. Benitez slipped one after another, dipping under them.

"Go downstairs!" Dundee exhorted Leonard between rounds. "Go to the body. Stick that left in his face. You can't stand in front of him and hit him with a right hand. Forget the right hand!" Leonard held out his hand, indicating where Benitez' face was. "But he's right there!" said Ray.

"Yeah," said Dundee. "He's right there, but then he ain't there."

Occasionally the two fighters stopped face to face, fiat-footed, feinting with their hands, weaving like wind-up dolls and searching for the openings. Leonard was looking at a mirror. In the sixth round, in fact, they cracked their foreheads together. Fortunately for Leonard, the blow raised only a welt. Unfortunately for Benitez, it opened a gash. Blood flowed down his face. His corner treated the cut, but Benitez knew that Leonard could reopen the wound and that the blood could impair his vision. Benitez was suffering from another problem, too. He had injured his left thumb early in the fight, and by the seventh round he was shaking his left glove at his side.

It was an odd fight, with much parrying and displays of ringcraft, and hard to judge. Neither man dominated. Neither could move the other around. Neither could set the other up. And there was not much banging. Leonard landed the harder blows and had Benitez going more than once late in the fight. In the ninth he delivered a flurry of punches, culminating with a right that put Benitez into the ropes. In the 11th Leonard hit him with a hook that jarred his mouthpiece loose. Benitez rope-a-doped. Leonard, who probably missed more punches in this fight than in all his previous 25 pro bouts combined, could not put him away. "No one, I mean no one, can make me miss punches like that," he said. "I kept thinking, 'Man. this guy's really good.' "

If the two used every feint and maneuver in the first 14 rounds, science deferred to war in the 15th. a round they both thought they needed to win. Actually, through 14 rounds Leonard was in front by at least two points on all three cards. Harry Gibbs, the English judge, had them the closest, 136-134 on the 10-points-must system. "Leonard missed so much." he said. "Boxing is the art of self-defense, and Benitez made Leonard miss."

The fighters swung from all points of the compass in the 15th. For weeks, preparing for this fight, Leonard had studied films of Wilfredo Gomez, the super bantamweight champ, who throws a devastating left uppercut. And now, off a jab, Leonard stepped inside and raised one home, catching Benitez on the chin. Down the champion went, to his knees. Regaining his feet, he stepped gingerly to a corner, kicking his legs to get the feeling back. He was ripe now. Leonard threw two punches more, and referee Carlos Padilla stopped the fight. Benitez had been beaten for the first time in 38 professional fights, and Leonard was the WBC's new welterweight champion.

Perhaps never has a title changed hands with more amicability and sportsmanship. Three times the two men embraced at the postfight press conference. "I have no excuses," said Benitez, with the gash still open and his thumb swelling. "He won easy, you know? He'll win a lot of fights like I do when I was champion, O.K.? He's a great challenger. He became champion beating me. I want to give him a good luck and God bless him."_


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Wow. Leonard studied Gomez. 

Gomez loved Harada :yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> To be honest I'm starting to conform to the MAG view that Leonard should indeed rank higher than Roberto. Must remind myself of all the reasons why I hadn't for so so long.


Wow! :blood @MAG1965 I actually like. It's a different sort of view, that's for sure. :lol: He was around for all this hoopla. So was my dad though :yep Said the first fight I ever saw was Duran-Barkley though I sure as hell don't remember it. I remember the carnage of Tyson-Ruddock II a couple years later though, in the absolutely most vague sense.



PityTheFool said:


> No denying the old guy knew his onions.Pre-Benitez as well!
> 
> I'm enjoying your looting of the SI vaults recently.:smile


:lol:

That's some of the highest praise I've ever seen or read for SRL. Should email it to Springs Toledo.



Flea Man said:


> Wow. Leonard studied Gomez.
> 
> Gomez loved Harada :yep


:good


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

No takers on my Griffith/El Feo>Burley/Williams?


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Wow! :blood @MAG1965 I actually like. It's a different sort of view, that's for sure. :lol: He was around for all this hoopla. So was my dad though :yep Said the first fight I ever saw was Duran-Barkley though I sure as hell don't remember it. I remember the carnage of Tyson-Ruddock II a couple years later though, in the absolutely most vague sense.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> ...


When you think about when he said that,it only puts Duran's victory into clearer perspective.
No wonder old Ray disowned Cholo after he quit.
He must've been thinking "Ray Leonard would never have done that":yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> No takers on my Griffith/El Feo>Burley/Williams?


I wouldn't argue it, though I'd be lying if I said much of it didn't have to do with Rodriguez being the fucking goods and that there's very little to be seen of the other two. It's far from Luf's new approach, I just stop rating altogether. Plus, I've only seen III & IV of the LMR/Griffith battles, the former was a disastrous decision. I imagine he must've all but shut him out to actually get an official win ? :lol:



PityTheFool said:


> *When you think about when he said that,it only puts Duran's victory into clearer perspective.*
> 
> No wonder old Ray disowned Cholo after he quit.
> He must've been thinking "Ray Leonard would never have done that":yep


Interestingly enough, my original intentions of being a full blown SRL defendant had precisely to do with the bolded. I couldn't understand the angle of basically attempting to shit on Duran's most significant win by breaking Leonard down to the point where there's just no way you could even call him a great fighter if you really believed the shit you were saying. The nonsense eventually became so thick and intolerable that I legitimately became a fan of the guy whereas before it was simply a high level of respect and appreciation. He's on near equal footing with Roberto these days for me in terms of favorite fighters.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I wouldn't argue it, though I'd be lying if I said much of it didn't have to do with Rodriguez being the fucking goods and that there's very little to be seen of the other two. It's far from Luf's new approach, I just stop rating altogether. Plus, I've only seen III & IV of the LMR/Griffith battles, the former was a disastrous decision. I imagine he must've all but shut him out to actually get an official win ? :lol:
> 
> Interestingly enough, my original intentions of being a full blown SRL defendant had precisely to do with the bolded. I couldn't understand the angle of basically attempting to shit on Duran's most significant win by breaking Leonard down to the point where there's just no way you could even call him a great fighter if you really believed the shit you were saying. The nonsense eventually became so thick and intolerable that I legitimately became a fan of the guy whereas before it was simply a high level of respect and appreciation. He's on near equal footing with Roberto these days for me in terms of favorite fighters.


I've always looked at it as one of the best legacy enhancing losses ever if you get what I mean,which only shows how highly I rate Duran.That fight is a defining moment for both guys and Leonard comes out of it very well IMO.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I wouldn't argue it, though I'd be lying if I said much of it didn't have to do with Rodriguez being the fucking goods and that there's very little to be seen of the other two. It's far from Luf's new approach, I just stop rating altogether. Plus, I've only seen III & IV of the LMR/Griffith battles, the former was a disastrous decision. I imagine he must've all but shut him out to actually get an official win ? :lol:
> 
> Interestingly enough, my original intentions of being a full blown SRL defendant had precisely to do with the bolded. I couldn't understand the angle of basically attempting to shit on Duran's most significant win by breaking Leonard down to the point where there's just no way you could even call him a great fighter if you really believed the shit you were saying. The nonsense eventually became so thick and intolerable that I legitimately became a fan of the guy whereas before it was simply a high level of respect and appreciation. He's on near equal footing with Roberto these days for me in terms of favorite fighters.


Second fight (the one LMR actually won) is fairly tedious for the majority of the bout. I think he won the 2nd and 3rd bouts CLEARLY though.
His MW ledger is incredible. Only Griffiths series with Benvenuti and win over Tiger get him close.

Only Napoles' wins over Cokes see him place>LMR.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I've always looked at it as one of the best legacy enhancing losses ever if you get what I mean,which only shows how highly I rate Duran.That fight is a defining moment for both guys and Leonard comes out of it very well IMO.


"Leonard showed tremendous courage," an admiring Ray Arcel would say later. "Duran landed some body shots that would have shook Hitler's army. But Leonard kept fighting back."

:lol:



Flea Man said:


> Second fight (the one LMR actually won) is fairly tedious for the majority of the bout. I think he won the 2nd and 3rd bouts CLEARLY though.
> His MW ledger is incredible. Only Griffiths series with Benvenuti and win over Tiger get him close.
> 
> Only Napoles' wins over Cokes see him place>LMR.


How are your top ten (strictly) welters looking? None of this Henry Armstrong Top 3 stuff now, Flea. P4P most certainly. However, the welter division itself has some legitimate thoroughbreds. Napoles a bit undersized and more of a 140lber but left an immense mark as champion a class up.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> "Leonard showed tremendous courage," an admiring Ray Arcel would say later. "Duran landed some body shots that would have shook Hitler's army. But Leonard kept fighting back."
> 
> :lol:
> 
> How are your top ten (strictly) welters looking? None of this Henry Armstrong Top 3 stuff now, Flea. P4P most certainly. However, the welter division itself has some legitimate thoroughbreds. Napoles a bit undersized and more of a 140lber but left an immense mark as champion a class up.


Armstrong WOULD be top 3 at lightweight had he beaten most of his welter opposition when they were also within the 135lb limit. He is still stop 10 with all those defences plus Garcia/Ross.

1) Ray Robinson
2) Ray Leonard
3) Kid Gavilan
4) Tommy Ryan
5) Jack Britton
6) Jose Napoles
7) Henry Armstrong
8) Emile Griffith
9) Luis Manuel Rodriguez
10) Mysterious Billy Smith

Possible 9/10 places: Basilio, Burley, Hearns, Gibbons


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Armstrong WOULD be top 3 at lightweight had he beaten most of his welter opposition when they were also within the 135lb limit. He is still stop 10 with all those defences plus Garcia/Ross.


Most definitely agree.



> 1) Ray Robinson
> 2) Ray Leonard
> 3) Kid Gavilan
> 4) Tommy Ryan
> ...


Do it! :deal


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> 5) Jack Britton


Got schooled by a 4'6'' lightweight.

Packey was a better welter than Britton.:blurp


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Got schooled by a 4'6'' lightweight.
> 
> Packey was a better welter than Britton.:blurp


Yeah, quite possibly but Brittons title reign and series victory over Ted Lewis is what pushes him so high.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Any thoughts on the rest of the placings? 

No controversy over my exclusion of Barbados Joe?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Oh, shit! Add Walker to my list of possibles :deal

Need to get a better grasp on the Dave Shade fight. If it was close but Walker definitely had a shout to win it I'd gladly move him to no.9 and have LMR, Mysterious Billy, Basilio and Hearns vying for no.10 spot.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Any thoughts on the rest of the placings?
> 
> No controversy over my exclusion of Barbados Joe?


None too much. I've always kept a pretty firm order of SRR, SRL, Gavilan, Napoles, Armstrong, LMR and Griffith for a front seven, though I'm pretty blank on guys like Ryan and Britton/TK Lewis.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> None too much. I've always kept a pretty firm order of SRR, SRL, Gavilan, Napoles, Armstrong, LMR and Griffith for a front seven, though I'm pretty blank on guys like Ryan and Britton/TK Lewis.


Nice :good


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Nice :good


It's a shame Hearns couldn't of done a bit more at the weight. He's still an all-time monster there.

Duran was a great welterweight too -- Leonard, Palomino, Nsubuga. But only eight damn fights or so, and one of the most infamous losses ever.

Curry had the stuff for sure.

We're talking greatness though and not ability.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's a shame Hearns couldn't of done a bit more at the weight. He's still an all-time monster there.
> 
> Duran was a great welterweight too -- Leonard, Palomino, Nsubuga. But only eight damn fights or so, and one of the most infamous losses ever.
> 
> ...


All guys that fit in well to a top 20, even Duran towards the end of it IMO (I'm guessing Mamby and Brooks were just over the 140limit? If so they're as valid as Bruce Curry was for Hearns)

Great, great weight class. Paret might even make the last few places of a top 20 depending on whether you give him the nod against Federico Thompson x2 and Griffith (2nd fight)

I'm taking Palomino> Cuevas

De La Hoya depending on how you view Pea and Tito fights.


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## Scalinatella (Jan 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Wow! :blood @MAG1965 That's some of the highest praise I've ever seen or read for SRL. Should email it to Springs Toledo.


Arcel and Brown knew that Leonard was great, which is part of the reason why they went gunning for him -they knew Duran was greater. Arcel had another motive to heap the praise on Leonard... the build-up for Duran-Leonard had already begun. Arcel was a smart old bird.

And right, Arcel always picked Benny Leonard as the greatest fighter he'd ever seen. But then Duran beat Ray Leonard. And according to Leonard Gardner, Arcel "seemed to let go of the past."


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Scalinatella said:


> Arcel and Brown knew that Leonard was great, which is part of the reason why they went gunning for him -they knew Duran was greater. Arcel had another motive to heap the praise on Leonard... the build-up for Duran-Leonard had already begun. Arcel was a smart old bird.
> 
> And right, Arcel always picked Benny Leonard as the greatest fighter he'd ever seen. But then Duran beat Ray Leonard. And according to Leonard Gardner, Arcel "seemed to let go of the past."


So all we had to do to pull you out of your cave - immediately - was just drop a simple mention? :lol:  If you hadn't shown up to the Greb/Armstrong thread months ago it would've been aimless call outs for @Stonehands89


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> All guys that fit in well to a top 20, even Duran towards the end of it IMO (I'm guessing Mamby and Brooks were just over the 140limit? If so they're as valid as Bruce Curry was for Hearns)
> 
> Great, great weight class. Paret might even make the last few places of a top 20 depending on whether you give him the nod against Federico Thompson x2 and Griffith (2nd fight)
> 
> ...


Andy Price: "I conquered both! :yep"

Mamby was Duran's big, legit win at 140. Brooks was at welter, yeah. Commentators were just beaming over the 147 landscape that was coming to fruition with Duran's move up, Leonard ascending and Hearns on the horizon.


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## Scalinatella (Jan 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> So all we had to do to pull you out of your cave - immediately - was just drop a simple mention? :lol:  If you hadn't shown up to the Greb/Armstrong thread months ago it would've been aimless call outs for @Stonehands89


You're right. I've been holed up for 12 hours a day this week on this damn computer working on this damn series (Aaron Wade), so I take breaks and checkhookboxing is a good break and this is a good thread!


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Scalinatella said:


> You're right. I've been holed up for 12 hours a day this week on this damn computer working on this damn series (Aaron Wade), so I take breaks and checkhookboxing is a good break and this is a good thread!


Woohoo! My man.

How's it going? Can you elaborate on the Wade series at all?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Scalinatella said:


> You're right. I've been holed up for 12 hours a day this week on this damn computer working on this damn series (Aaron Wade), so I take breaks and checkhookboxing is a good break and this is a good thread!


You're missed. I've been up for the last 19 which is a damn shame because I'd love to stick around and chat but the mind is getting dull. Page 13 was my favorite in this thread: http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...ther-over-Marquez-or-Hagler-over-Duran/page13


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> You're missed. I've been up for the last 19 which is a damn shame because I'd love to stick around and chat but the mind is getting dull. Page 13 was my favorite in this thread: http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...ther-over-Marquez-or-Hagler-over-Duran/page13


Was about to say what f'n hours are you keeping young man?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Paret might even make the last few places of a top 20 depending on whether you give him the nod against Federico Thompson x2


Not on my watch:twisted


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Not on my watch:twisted


Nah, me neither.

You watched LMR-LFT yet?


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I only rank a man in one division, makes it easier :good


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> I only rank a man in one division, makes it easier :good


Nah. Not for me. Unfair not to rank Greb at LHW just because he's my no.1 MW


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## Scalinatella (Jan 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Woohoo! My man.
> 
> How's it going? Can you elaborate on the Wade series at all?


Sure --Wade isn't easy to exhume. He has no prison record (like Jack Chase), no military record (like Bert Lytell), his father didn't die in the Bermuda Triangle aboard a ship (like Cocoa Kid's), and he wasn't a top contender for very long (like Burley and Williams). But then I managed to find his son out in San Francisco. That really helped. He may well have been the best puncher of Murderers' Row -Moore and Burley steered away from him when they fought, and he was avoided like a leper. Unlike his peers, he didn't become a road warrior and instead stuck to the bay area in CA until he ran into some real trouble and had to go east.

The surprises are his height, what happened to him after his career ended, and some shocking news that has everything to do with Sugar Ray Robinson himself.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> You watched LMR-LFT yet?


Been busy rewatching Jaime Garza's reign of terror.

Next stop is the revaluation of the Corro-Harris war's place in boxing history.

And then LMR.

I'm saving the best for last.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Paret a top 20


Isaac Logart beat Akins, Ortega, Turner, Bahama, stopped the unstoppable underrated JJ Fernandez, deserved the decision against LF Thompson, got robbed by the fucking Girffith and most importantly destroyed Bombon Oriental twice and outboxed Baby Gavilan.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Nah. Not for me. Unfair not to rank Greb at LHW just because he's my no.1 MW


I don't even rank greb at all :lol:

I just rank a man in the division i think he was his best.

For example I rate Armstrong as a LW. Doesn't mean I can't pick him to beat every feather in history, or that I can't respect his many welter defences, just means I consider him a LW.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Isaac Logart beat Akins, Ortega, Turner, Bahama, stopped the unstoppable underrated JJ Fernandez, deserved the decision against LF Thompson, got robbed by the fucking Girffith and most importantly destroyed Bombon Oriental twice and outboxed Baby Gavilan.


You won't get any arguments from me on Logart being fucking brilliant.

I have not seen Logart Vs Federico Thompson; is it around?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Scalinatella said:


> Sure --Wade isn't easy to exhume. He has no prison record (like Jack Chase), no military record (like Bert Lytell), his father didn't die in the Bermuda Triangle aboard a ship (like Cocoa Kid's), and he wasn't a top contender for very long (like Burley and Williams). But then I managed to find his son out in San Francisco. That really helped. He may well have been the best puncher of Murderers' Row -Moore and Burley steered away from him when they fought, and he was avoided like a leper. Unlike his peers, he didn't become a road warrior and instead stuck to the bay area in CA until he ran into some real trouble and had to go east.
> 
> The surprises are his height, what happened to him after his career ended, and some shocking news that has everything to do with Sugar Ray Robinson himself.


As always, I'm super excited.

Books then? 'Gods of War' being published any time soon? And I would hope you'll put all your articles (even longer 'Directors Cuts if poss') into the definitive article of 'The Murderers Row'?

My Thai book is on hold at the mo', but I am working on something else.....something good.


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## Scalinatella (Jan 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> As always, I'm super excited.
> 
> Books then? 'Gods of War' being published any time soon? And I would hope you'll put all your articles (even longer 'Directors Cuts if poss') into the definitive article of 'The Murderers Row'?
> 
> My Thai book is on hold at the mo', but I am working on something else.....something good.


Something good...? What's that? I'm curious.

Yes, "The Gods of War: Boxing Essays" has a publication date of 24 April 2014, but may be available earlier. If the cover isn't the best boxing book cover you've ever seen, I'll retire to bedlam.

I hope it does well. It will be a hard cover with a dust jacket for $25. The Appendix features the next 20 after the ten 'gods of war.'

I'm gonna push it as much as I can and am thinking about taking out an ad in The New Yorker (where Liebling published his essays in the 50s/early 60s). I think Murderers' Row will be the third book because it will take some time to get to Lloyd Marshall, do something on Burley (something new), and flesh out the others. The next book may just be me in the cheap seats covering fights. I have plenty of those and they're different than the rest because I almost always tie in the great ones from way back.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Who are these people.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Scalinatella said:


> Something good...? What's that? I'm curious.
> 
> Yes, "The Gods of War: Boxing Essays" has a publication date of 24 April 2014, but may be available earlier. If the cover isn't the best boxing book cover you've ever seen, I'll retire to bedlam.
> 
> ...


The appendix is just the list....or pieces on those fighters as well?

I'll be the first man to buy one.

I can't say on here just yet, I'll PM you :good


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I have not seen Logart Vs Federico Thompson; is it around?


I've never seen it listed anywhere.:-(

Ortega-LF Federico does exist, by the way:ibutt


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> I've never seen it listed anywhere.:-(
> 
> Ortega-LF Federico does exist, by the way:ibutt


Says who?

I need to get LMR KO3 LC Morgan (the Napoles slayer)


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Credit goes to Raging Bull:



> A Champion's Funeral
> 
> Mourners began arriving at the Bernardo Garcia-Brake Funeral Home in the early evening, while the Miami sun still bathed Seventh Street with a dim light.
> 
> ...





> THE JAB
> 
> When Luis Rodriguez came to San Diego to train for his fight the Mexican Middle Weight Champ Rafael Gutierrez, the sand was draining out of his hour glass. He'd been climbing in and out of a ring amateur and pro for almost twenty years. He had put on poundage to fight middle weights though his frame still looked welter. Seeing the old Cuban train in sunny San Diego looked peculiar. Even though San Diego is a spin up the freeway from Mexico,Louie seemed not at home at all. Besides, his opponent was Mexican. The crowd that would attend the fight at the Sports Arena wouldn't be cheering for the Cuban.
> 
> ...


 @Flea Man

@Hands of Iron

@Bogotazo


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Says who?


Raging Bull has seen it.


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## Scalinatella (Jan 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> The appendix is just the list....or pieces on those fighters as well?
> 
> I'll be the first man to buy one.
> 
> I can't say on here just yet, I'll PM you :good


The Appendix/next 20 is a list with criteria/scores.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Amazing stuff.

Who wrote those pieces?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Scalinatella said:


> The Appendix/next 20 is a list with criteria/scores.


Class. It's at the top of my wish list already.

I PM'd you as I rarely check my emails nowadays.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Fidel did not execute opponents by the thousands, the Cuban Government held tribunals for military men loyal to Batista and sentenced those guilty of war crimes to execution. 

Great read though, thanks for posting. Interesting to hear Ali studied him sparring.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Amazing stuff.
> 
> Who wrote those pieces?


"A Champion's Funeral" - boxing historian Enrique Encinosa.

"The Jab" - don't know.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Gutierrez later turned the trick on LMR :-(


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Who are these people.


:lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Credit goes to Raging Bull:
> 
> @Flea Man
> 
> ...


Fantastic


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Scalinatella said:


> Arcel and Brown knew that Leonard was great, which is part of the reason why they went gunning for him -they knew Duran was greater. Arcel had another motive to heap the praise on Leonard... the build-up for Duran-Leonard had already begun. Arcel was a smart old bird.
> 
> And right, Arcel always picked Benny Leonard as the greatest fighter he'd ever seen. But then Duran beat Ray Leonard. And according to Leonard Gardner, Arcel "seemed to let go of the past."


There isn't anybody that's going to beat a prime, undefeated fighter on Ray Leonard's tier of ability or greatness whilst being a full division (two in this era) above their peak weight class. The chances of any victory topping it since are beyond remote. I'm thrilled you finished up the Gods of War; wasn't sure on the status of it for a while but I'll definitely be purchasing it.



Flea Man said:


> Was about to say what f'n hours are you keeping young man?


Mostly due to long working hours Mon/Tue/Wed. My activity level usually drops off significantly over the other four days.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> You watched LMR-LFT yet?


Damn:scaredas:

Dat movement made Federico look like Valuev.

And those machine gun-like bodypunching combos.

Like Dunphy noticed during the fight - LMR changed his style each round.

From a dancing jabber to a bob-n-weave swarmer/two-handed Frazier - talk about versatility.

Thompson wasn't a great mover but he had a Toney-like inside game and Rodriguez schooled him there too.

And Federico despite advancing age was still clearly a very capable fighter.

One of the best (if not the best) performances from El Feo.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Damn:scaredas:
> 
> Dat movement made Federico look like Valuev.
> 
> ...


Although some of his bouts were slightly over the limit would you rank LMR in the top 10 welters of all time?

It was indeed a great performance. Federico usually slowed an element of slickness and here he looked ordinary.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Although some of his bouts were slightly over the limit would you rank LMR in the top 10 welters of all time?


I would rank him exactly four places above Emile Griffith.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> I would rank him exactly four places above Emile Griffith.


 Would Emile make your top 10?

What about my list yesterday? Anyone you really agreed with or really disagreed with? Would you have Ryan>Gavilan?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Would Emile make your top 10?


Griffith has received enough gifts in his career.

He won't get any from me.

I can still hear JJ Fernandez's balls' silent cry for justice.



Flea Man said:


> What about my list yesterday? Anyone you really agreed with or really disagreed with? Would you have Ryan>Gavilan?


It's a good list. Controversial, totally wrong, criminally walcottless but good.

Although personally I'm not very comfortable with rating no-footage fighters - it's not fun and too hypothetical for me.

Unless we're talking about Sullivan's mustache or Greb's porno sparring footage.

Kinda surprised to see Ryan that high though.

Yeah, he was Robinson before Robinson, tamed Mysterious Billy, dominant welter-middle boxer-puncher and all - but apparently he blatantly avoided Barbados Joe.

Ducking must not be left unpunished:ibutt

Thank god, Corkscrew Puncher made Tommy his bitch - at middleweight, but still!

LMR is way too low - especially for you.

Hearns' resume is paper-thin compared to fighters on your list - but without Hitman any P4P-list just looks so... so... so not right.

That's why H2H-beastness is so important!


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Griffith has received enough gifts in his career.
> 
> He won't get any from me.
> 
> ...


On a P4P list Hearns would be high.

On a 147 list not so much.

Smith was Walcotts daddy. As was Lavigne at lightweight.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

The real question should be: Does it negatively affect Hagler his legacy that he lost 4/5 rounds to a fat lightweight?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Smith was Walcotts daddy.


I haven't delved deep into their rivalry but was he really?


----------

