# why did not Gene Tunney fight Blacks?



## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

I heard this Guy did not even sparr vs Blacks


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## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

Max Schmeling hinted but did not say outright, that prejudice was the reason.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/autographs-gene-tunney-unbelievable-racist-co-1-c-suhckp3zn1


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

> GENE TUNNEY Unbelievable racist content T.L.S. "Gene" on his business letterhead, 2pp. 4to., Stamford, Apr. 8, 1949 to his close friend Robert Gros in which Tunney sets forth his views on the inequality of the races. In very small part: "...I have learned a great deal about the ***** problem since I have taken this job...the American ***** is no more like his African cousins...than we are like Neanderthal men. The American *****, without exception, has a good infusion of white blood...[he] is a development of physical selection.Women slaves were serviced by men slaves, just as mares of the racetrack are serviced by great sires. This accounts for much of the physical superiority of the *****...The intelligent man's objection tothe ***** [is based] on his cultural immaturity...[they] will be accepted by Americans just as soon as he proves his equality culturally and spiritually...Men are not created equal. Not one percent of the people of the world are gifted with brains enough to contribute to the progress of the world..."


its technically racist but not that bad for the times......


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Still pretty bad though.


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## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

Confused for certain, but quite enlightened for the times.

That is probably the type of opinion that you had to be prepared to work with, if you wanted to get anywhere with civil liberties back then.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

He was very well managed through his career. Cherry picked his way to number 1 spot in two divisions.

vast majority of his fights were low risk high reward.

Plus he was a massive racist.


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> He was very well managed through his career. Cherry picked his way to number 1 spot in two divisions.
> 
> vast majority of his fights were low risk high reward.
> 
> Plus he was a massive racist.


I don't call fighting Harry Greb 5 times, Loughran, Carpentier, Gibbons (even a latter version) and Levinsky cherry picking.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Seamus said:


> I don't call fighting Harry Greb 5 times, Loughran, Carpentier, Gibbons (even a latter version) and Levinsky cherry picking.


It made me laugh too.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Luf said:


> He was very well managed through his career. Cherry picked his way to number 1 spot in two divisions.
> 
> vast majority of his fights were low risk high reward.
> 
> Plus he was a massive racist.


Have you proof of this?
He seems quite comfortable eating a meal with Joe Louis, and shaking his hand .http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-p...ACME/boxers-joe-louis-and-gene-tunney-sharing


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

Cormac said:


> Have you proof of this?
> He seems quite comfortable eating a meal with Joe Louis, and shaking his hand .


he kinda looks a bit grossed out to be honest :lol:


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Seamus said:


> I don't call fighting Harry Greb 5 times, Loughran, Carpentier, Gibbons (even a latter version) and Levinsky cherry picking.


neither do I :good

Like how Floyd has cherry picked but fighting Alvarez, Corrales and De La Hoya are not cherry picks.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Have you proof of this?
> He seems quite comfortable eating a meal with Joe Louis, and shaking his hand .http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-p...ACME/boxers-joe-louis-and-gene-tunney-sharing


someone already posted a quote of his on this thread.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Johnstown said:


> its technically racist but not that bad for the times......


he has the tone of an elitist

I heard he was a massive social climber. good game though


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## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

Seamus said:


> I don't call fighting Harry Greb 5 times, Loughran, Carpentier, Gibbons (even a latter version) and Levinsky cherry picking.


Some context is needed here. 

He badly miscalculated when he fought Greb, and fought him five times because he kept getting beaten. 

The other name fighters he fought, were either past their best or green, and were very carefully chosen on this basis. 

He definitely tried to navigate the path of least resistance.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Gibbons and Carp were right at the end of their career.
Loughran and Delaney right at the start.

Greb was a quality win as was Dempsey.

Also he fought Smith who i think was black.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

He wasn't that black.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> He wasn't that black.


Was he a blacksmith?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Tunney fought two Smiths that I am aware of: Jeff Smith and Sgt. Ray Smith. Both were white.


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## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

I don't think he ever even had a black sparring partner to be honest.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Thought he wouldn't be racist for some reason


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Cormac said:


> Was he a blacksmith?


Apparently he was a founding member of the Globetrotters, and integrated their crouching dribble into his boxing stance.


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## HuffmanJ (Jul 21, 2013)

Johnstown said:


> he kinda looks a bit grossed out to be honest


:lol: I honestly thought the same thing. But I figured it was probably my imagination.


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## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

Dude was racist


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## Surf-Bat (Jun 6, 2013)

janitor said:


> Some context is needed here.
> 
> He badly miscalculated when he fought Greb, and fought him five times because he kept getting beaten.
> 
> ...


Exactly. AND he always made sure he had every conceivable advantage over an opponent before consenting to step into the ring. His pre-fight negotiation shenanigans with Greb and Jeff Smith are especially nauseating(insisting on his handpicked referees, etc). The more you read about Tunney, the less you respect him. Especially when you compare him to his contemporaries like Greb, who didn't dicker over every little point, but got in there and did what a man and a fighter does- FIGHT! (I always thought the title of Gene's bio to be ironic. "A Man Must Fight"?? Yeah right Gene. More like "A Man Must be as Careful as Possible Before Consenting to Fight").

He had a nice 10 pound advantage over Loughran and- very notably- never fought Tommy again.

Gibbons and Carpentier were at the end of their careers.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Surf-Bat said:


> Exactly. AND he always made sure he had every conceivable advantage over an opponent before consenting to step into the ring. His pre-fight negotiation shenanigans with Greb and Jeff Smith are especially nauseating(insisting on his handpicked referees, etc). The more you read about Tunney, the less you respect him. Especially when you compare him to his contemporaries like Greb, who didn't dicker over every little point, but got in there and did what a man and a fighter does- FIGHT! (I always thought the title of Gene's bio to be ironic. "A Man Must Fight"?? Yeah right Gene. More like "A Man Must be as Careful as Possible Before Consenting to Fight").
> 
> He had a nice 10 pound advantage over Loughran and- very notably- never fought Tommy again.
> 
> Gibbons and Carpentier were at the end of their careers.


Any truth to the rumor that Tunney paid a member of the Washington Generals to injure Smith prior to their fight?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Surf-Bat said:


> Exactly. AND he always made sure he had every conceivable advantage over an opponent before consenting to step into the ring. His pre-fight negotiation shenanigans with Greb and Jeff Smith are especially nauseating(insisting on his handpicked referees, etc). The more you read about Tunney, the less you respect him. Especially when you compare him to his contemporaries like Greb, who didn't dicker over every little point, but got in there and did what a man and a fighter does- FIGHT! (I always thought the title of Gene's bio to be ironic. "A Man Must Fight"?? Yeah right Gene. More like "A Man Must be as Careful as Possible Before Consenting to Fight").
> 
> He had a nice 10 pound advantage over Loughran and- very notably- never fought Tommy again.
> 
> Gibbons and Carpentier were at the end of their careers.


In fairness to Tunney he didnt duck a rematch with Loughran. They were scheduled to fight again in the summer of 1924 but Loughran broke his hand and called off the match.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Somebody could write a really good book on what a self centered slime ball Tunney was. I would recommend anyone read as much as you can about the two lawsuits filed against him by Max Boo Boo Hoff and Tim Mara. In order to save himself a hefty chunk of change (and he ended up paying Mara off anyway) he admitted all kinds of dirty shinnanigans in court that he had taken part in to get the title shot at Dempsey. It was freely admitted that he knew that the first person who got a shot at Dempsey would win the title. He was that convinced that Dempsey was shot. He also admitted they did everything they could to block Harry Wills and admitted that their public challenge of Wills was bullshit that they never intended to follow through with. He used anyone and everyone he could in order to get a shot at the title and when he did he turned his back on those people. He leveraged his fame to social climb his way into a marriage with heiress Polly Lauder and then turned his back on the old guard who had built him up. There's a reason why he never really caught on with the fans and why he had a reputation as being aloof and someone who felt he was better than everyone else...


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## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Somebody could write a really good book on what a self centered slime ball Tunney was. I would recommend anyone read as much as you can about the two lawsuits filed against him by Max Boo Boo Hoff and Tim Mara. In order to save himself a hefty chunk of change (and he ended up paying Mara off anyway) he admitted all kinds of dirty shinnanigans in court that he had taken part in to get the title shot at Dempsey. It was freely admitted that he knew that the first person who got a shot at Dempsey would win the title. He was that convinced that Dempsey was shot. He also admitted they did everything they could to block Harry Wills and admitted that their public challenge of Wills was bullshit that they never intended to follow through with. He used anyone and everyone he could in order to get a shot at the title and when he did he turned his back on those people. He leveraged his fame to social climb his way into a marriage with heiress Polly Lauder and then turned his back on the old guard who had built him up. There's a reason why he never really caught on with the fans and why he had a reputation as being aloof and someone who felt he was better than everyone else...


I got the same vibe


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

Well honestly.....did you ever smell one of those....



.....bad apples...because that's what Gene Tunney seems like...a Bad Apple for being racist and not fighting black folks.


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Somebody could write a really good book on what a self centered slime ball Tunney was. I would recommend anyone read as much as you can about the two lawsuits filed against him by Max Boo Boo Hoff and Tim Mara. In order to save himself a hefty chunk of change (and he ended up paying Mara off anyway) he admitted all kinds of dirty shinnanigans in court that he had taken part in to get the title shot at Dempsey. It was freely admitted that he knew that the first person who got a shot at Dempsey would win the title. He was that convinced that Dempsey was shot. He also admitted they did everything they could to block Harry Wills and admitted that their public challenge of Wills was bullshit that they never intended to follow through with. He used anyone and everyone he could in order to get a shot at the title and when he did he turned his back on those people. He leveraged his fame to social climb his way into a marriage with heiress Polly Lauder and then turned his back on the old guard who had built him up. There's a reason why he never really caught on with the fans and why he had a reputation as being aloof and someone who felt he was better than everyone else...


but but....gene tunney had the style to beat Dempsey at any point in his career....and Dempsey wasn't shot at all when they fought... :rolleyes


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Sounds like a narcissistic guy with a hefty superiority complex. Still an amazing boxer but his record and image gets tarnished when you hear of these things.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Sounds like a narcissistic guy with a hefty superiority complex. Still an amazing boxer but his record and image gets tarnished when you hear of these things.


I dont know what Tunney was like and I'm not going to form an opinion on the basis of a few lines some one types on a PC.

TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH

"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, ***** heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only ***** heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Wow I always thought Jeff Smith was black. Based wholly on the sound of the name :-(


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Somebody could write a really good book on what a self centered slime ball Tunney was. I would recommend anyone read as much as you can about the two lawsuits filed against him by Max Boo Boo Hoff and Tim Mara. In order to save himself a hefty chunk of change (and he ended up paying Mara off anyway) he admitted all kinds of dirty shinnanigans in court that he had taken part in to get the title shot at Dempsey. It was freely admitted that he knew that the first person who got a shot at Dempsey would win the title. He was that convinced that Dempsey was shot. He also admitted they did everything they could to block Harry Wills and admitted that their public challenge of Wills was bullshit that they never intended to follow through with. He used anyone and everyone he could in order to get a shot at the title and when he did he turned his back on those people. He leveraged his fame to social climb his way into a marriage with heiress Polly Lauder and then turned his back on the old guard who had built him up. There's a reason why he never really caught on with the fans and why he had a reputation as being aloof and someone who felt he was better than everyone else...


Max Boo Boo Hoff.King Of The Philadelphia Bootleggers, dropped his $400,000 law suit against Tunney in 1931.

Mara lost his $526,000 lawsuit against Tunney in1930.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...r8aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QksEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3432,1935394

Tunney spotting Dempsey was shot is not reprehensible, it merely means he was a better judge of fistic form than the thousands who expected Dempsey to kill him.Apart from Arnold Rothstein who won a fortune on the first Tunney Dempsey fight , the vast majority thought it was cake for Jack.

Bettering yourself has never been a crime either, I'd always thought it was considered a virtue in America,where "every thing is possible". Have you any reason to suppose Tunney did not love Polly Lauder or that they were not happily married?

I HOPE YOUR HARRY GREB BOOK IS MORE OBJECTIVE THAN YOUR TUNNEY POST.


Remembering 'Boo Boo' HoffBy Parry Desmond
Copyright © 2003
Max "Boo Boo" Hoff was born in 1893 in South Philadelphia, a son of poor Russian-Jewish, immigrants. After quitting school, Boo Boo worked for several years as a cigar store clerk. His salary allegedly was raised from $12 a week to $15 after the proprietor noticed how Boo Boo's amiable personality appealed to customers.









Max Hoff

But Boo Boo wanted to be his own boss. So, in 1917, he started a gambling operation in the section of Philadelphia now known as Society Hill. There was a poolroom on the first floor and a dice game usually was going full blast upstairs.
Although he used his involvement in boxing as a front for his other activities, boxing played an important role in Boo Boo's life. In the late 1920s, he had the largest stable of prizefighters in the nation, and he staged boxing matches for many years at several sites in Philadelphia. None of the boxers won a world championship, but several were highly ranked contenders in a period when boxing was a widely popular form of sports entertainment. Boo Boo's stable of boxers became Max Hoff Inc. in 1928. It was the first group of fighters in the nation to be incorporated.
One of Boo Boo's most publicized ventures in boxing was the $350,000 lawsuit he filed against Gene Tunney and his manager, Billy Gibson, in 1927. The suit was based on a disputed agreement, which Hoff claimed was signed by Tunney and Gibson the day before Tunney's first fight with the heavyweight champion, Jack Dempsey, in 1926. Tunney won the historic battle, fought in a driving rainstorm before a crowd of more than 120,000 fans - including six governors and three cabinet secretaries - at Philadelphia's Sesquicentennial Stadium (subsequently known as Municipal Stadium and JFK Stadium before it was razed).
Boo Boo said he loaned Tunney and Gibson $20,000 as an advance to bind an oral agreement. Tunney and Gibson allegedly needed money right away because they owed thousands of dollars to Tex Rickards, who promoted the fight and had loaned them money to cover training and other expenses. The deal called for Boo Boo to receive 20 percent of Tunney's championship fight earnings and to be joint-manager, with Gibson, in exchange for the loan.
According to newspaper accounts, Hoff and Gibson signed the contract, but Tunney wrote "Eugene Joseph Tunney" on the document. His real name was James Joseph Tunney.
Despite his insistence that he had a strong case, Boo Boo mysteriously dropped the suit in 1931, reportedly without discussing a possible settlement with Tunney's lawyers.










Was Hoff equipping a bootleg army?











Max Hoff in 1928


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

heavyweightcp said:


> I heard this Guy did not even sparr vs Blacks


Apart from Kid Norfolk at lhvy and Wills [whom he offered to fight] at heavy there were not that many standout black challengers imo.


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## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

Cormac said:


> Apart from Kid Norfolk at lhvy and Wills [whom he offered to fight] at heavy there were not that many standout black challengers imo.


I would say that Godfrey started to come to the fore, more in Tunney's day than Dempsey's.

Jack Dempsey himself said after Tunney retired, that he thought Godfrey was the best of the remaining crop.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Max Boo Boo Hoff.King Of The Philadelphia Bootleggers, dropped his $400,000 law suit against Tunney in 1931.
> 
> Mara lost his $526,000 lawsuit against Tunney in1930.
> http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...r8aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QksEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3432,1935394
> ...


Do you do any more research than what you can just find with a quick google search?

Mara re-entered his suit against Tunney later and Tunney settled out of court.

Either way its besides the point because I never said Tunney lost those suits, I stated that his testimony was pretty damning to himself.

Im stating facts here and you act like Im biased when you come back constantly with cherry picked information taken completely out of context and peppered with a gross lack of understanding or complete ignorance on the subject... Who is biased?


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## Chesshook (Jul 18, 2013)

Cormac said:


> Have you proof of this?
> He seems quite comfortable eating a meal with Joe Louis, and shaking his hand .http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-p...ACME/boxers-joe-louis-and-gene-tunney-sharing


You do know that there is also a picture with the more racially outspoken Dempsey shaking hands with Louis? Being friendly with an American hero like Joe Louis doesn't discount the possibility that Tunney may have been a racist. Not saying he was as I don't have any concrete proof and infact have never realized that he has never fought/sparred agaisnt a black fighter before but I wouldn't be surprised if he was. Those were just the sign of the times.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Do you do any more research than what you can just find with a quick google search?
> 
> Mara re-entered his suit against Tunney later and Tunney settled out of court.
> 
> ...


You imply Tunney married Polly Lauder as an attempt at social climbing, you produced no excerpts of this"pretty damning evidence where Tunney supposedly admitted he had no intention of fighting Wills.You state Tunney junked his old friends once he was successful again without any corroboration do you expect people to believe what you type unreservedly without any evidence to back it up.

Im not biased either way as to Tunney's character, I've already said I dont know what kind of a man he was, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't take your word for it.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> You imply Tunney married Polly Lauder as an attempt at social climbing, you produced no excerpts of this"pretty damning evidence where Tunney supposedly admitted he had no intention of fighting Wills.You state Tunney junked his old friends once he was successful again without any corroboration do you expect people to believe what you type unreservedly without any evidence to back it up.
> 
> Im not biased either way as to Tunney's character, I've already said I dont know what kind of a man he was, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't take your word for it.


Its not up to me to educate you or post quotes. If you doubt me then go look it up yourself. If you think Im lying prove it. All I can say is one of us has done a ton of research into Tunney that extends a lot farther than sitting on his ass looking up google news quotes and its not you. The fact that you are ill informed and too lazy to do actual research is neither my concern nor my problem.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Chesshook said:


> You do know that there is also a picture with the more racially outspoken Dempsey shaking hands with Louis? Being friendly with an American hero like Joe Louis doesn't discount the possibility that Tunney may have been a racist. Not saying he was as I don't have any concrete proof and infact have never realized that he has never fought/sparred agaisnt a black fighter before but I wouldn't be surprised if he was. Those were just the sign of the times.


Only cormac could read that letter from Tunney and come away thinking he may not have been racist.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I feel like that sometimes. When I've debated a point previously and someone with no new insight asks me go over it again months later I'm just like "look it up your self"


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Somebody could write a really good book on what a self centered slime ball Tunney was. I would recommend anyone read as much as you can about the two lawsuits filed against him by Max Boo Boo Hoff and Tim Mara. In order to save himself a hefty chunk of change (and he ended up paying Mara off anyway) he admitted all kinds of dirty shinnanigans in court that he had taken part in to get the title shot at Dempsey. It was freely admitted that he knew that the first person who got a shot at Dempsey would win the title. He was that convinced that Dempsey was shot. He also admitted they did everything they could to block Harry Wills and admitted that their public challenge of Wills was bullshit that they never intended to follow through with. He used anyone and everyone he could in order to get a shot at the title and when he did he turned his back on those people. He leveraged his fame to social climb his way into a marriage with heiress Polly Lauder and then turned his back on the old guard who had built him up. There's a reason why he never really caught on with the fans and why he had a reputation as being aloof and someone who felt he was better than everyone else...


So he was the Larry Holmes of the past?


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Its not up to me to educate you or post quotes. If you doubt me then go look it up yourself. If you think Im lying prove it. All I can say is one of us has done a ton of research into Tunney that extends a lot farther than sitting on his ass looking up google news quotes and its not you. The fact that you are ill informed and too lazy to do actual research is neither my concern nor my problem.


Anyone who disagrees with you is ill-informed ,its the classic defence of the man who is convinced he is not only always right , but is incapable of being wrong.

Mara sued Tunney for $456,000 ,and settled out of court for $30,000 paid in recognition of his services in helping arrange the first Dempsey fight.
I didn't say you were lying ,I said I would not unreservedly believe your statements and without proof I won't.
To capsulate this ,when you make a sweeping statement the onus is on you to provide evidence that it is factually correct, not on those who do not accept your statements without corroboration. Its called , " the burden of proof".
To give an example McGrain, on the Dempsey thread provided several articles to back up his assertion that Wills remained the premier contender for Dempsey's title for x amount of years.

On this thread you have produced Jack- Shit, that may be acceptable in Cloud Klompton Land but it doesnt go here in the real world.

Your on-going problem is you think you know everything and are far beyond any form of criticism however mild and ,when your opinions are not swallowed unreservedly as gospel truth you become personally abusive .

This pronounced character flaw is precisely why you were banned from Eastside and why you are now here favouring us with your Sermon On The Mount Diatribes and character assassinations of long dead men who cannot defend their reputations.

Carpentier was a serial foul claimer,Tunney was a self centred slime ball, Dempsey was afraid to spar with Kid Norfolk
etc..
All part of the Gospel according to Klompton.

I don't buy it.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Anyone who disagrees with you is ill-informed ,its the classic defence of the man who is convinced he is not only always right , but is incapable of being wrong.
> 
> Mara sued Tunney for $456,000 ,and settled out of court for $30,000 paid in recognition of his services in helping arrange the first Dempsey fight.
> I didn't say you were lying ,I said I would not unreservedly believe your statements and without proof I won't.
> ...


And you think being ignorant of the facts is the same as those facts being false. Rarely have I ever seen the term "ignorance" is bliss better applied to someone.

If you have a problem with the idea that Dempsey refused to spar Norfolk (a fact) or that Carpentier repeatedly tried to claim fouls in his fights (a fact) or that Tunney was a self centered social climbing racist (a fact) then prove me wrong. Because I can post articles where in 1921 while training for Carpentier Norfolk headed to Dempsey's camp to answer Dempsey's call for more sparring partners and was barred. I can cite the Gunboat Smith, Tommy Gibbons, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, and Battling Siki to name just a few off the top of my head in which Carpentier tried to claim a foul in order to either change the result of the fight or cast doubt upon it. Anyone wanting any proof at all that Tunney was a racist need look no further than the letter posted above. Look up the definition of racist and you will see that letter falls squarely within its guidelines.

You arent simply playing devils advocate here you are trying to bend facts to suite your argument based on your lack of knowledge. When I made my point about Tunney's testimony, which had nothing to do with the outcome of those trials, you stated Tunney won them (totally besides the point). It was only after I pointed out, for the second time, that Tunney settled with Mara that you actually acknowledged that fact, no doubt after a quick google news search. Adding that it was for "his services in helping arrange the first Dempsey fight." You fail to mention that those services were Mara lobbying officials and politicians to block Wills challenge which had been filed with a binding forfeit that far pre-dated Tunney's. The bottom line is that Tunney actively enlisted the help of men like Mara, Hoff, McCormack, and others. He benefitted from that help and in some cases contractually obligated himself to pay for that help and when it came time to pay he completely turned his back on them. Even Billy Gibson who Tunney owed everything to had his percentage of Tunney's purses whittled down AFTER Tunney won the title. If you look up to him for this fine but I see the guy as a slimeball who was willing to step on anyone and everyone in order to get what he wanted.

The bottom line is I could care less whether you believe me but when you start spouting off biased ill informed ignorant posts to suit your heros and you get corrected with hard researched facts dont get mad.


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## johnmaff36 (Aug 3, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Anyone who disagrees with you is ill-informed ,its the classic defence of the man who is convinced he is not only always right , but is incapable of being wrong.
> 
> Mara sued Tunney for $456,000 ,and settled out of court for $30,000 paid in recognition of his services in helping arrange the first Dempsey fight.
> I didn't say you were lying ,I said I would not unreservedly believe your statements and without proof I won't.
> ...


:bbb

this thread just got interesting:hey


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## johnmaff36 (Aug 3, 2012)

Klompton said:


> And you think being ignorant of the facts is the same as those facts being false. Rarely have I ever seen the term "ignorance" is bliss better applied to someone.
> 
> If you have a problem with the idea that Dempsey refused to spar Norfolk (a fact) or that Carpentier repeatedly tried to claim fouls in his fights (a fact) or that Tunney was a self centered social climbing racist (a fact) then prove me wrong. Because I can post articles where in 1921 while training for Carpentier Norfolk headed to Dempsey's camp to answer Dempsey's call for more sparring partners and was barred. I can cite the Gunboat Smith, Tommy Gibbons, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, and Battling Siki to name just a few off the top of my head in which Carpentier tried to claim a foul in order to either change the result of the fight or cast doubt upon it. Anyone wanting any proof at all that Tunney was a racist need look no further than the letter posted above. Look up the definition of racist and you will see that letter falls squarely within its guidelines.
> 
> ...


*couldn't care less*:smile


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Apart from Kid Norfolk at lhvy and Wills [whom he offered to fight] at heavy there were not that many standout black challengers imo.


Battling Siki
Kid Norfolk
Larry Estridge
Jamaica Kid
Harry Wills
Jack Taylor
Tiger Flowers
Jeff Clark
Cleve Hawkins
Tut Jackson
Lee Anderson
Bob Lawson
Jim Mcreary
Jack Townsend
Bill Tate
Battling Gahee
George Robinson
John Lester Johnson
Even Sam Langford

There were plenty of choices for a black opponent at the time. Some were very good, some were at least as good as the Tunney's low level "stay busy" fights.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> And you think being ignorant of the facts is the same as those facts being false. Rarely have I ever seen the term "ignorance" is bliss better applied to someone.
> 
> If you have a problem with the idea that Dempsey refused to spar Norfolk (a fact) or that Carpentier repeatedly tried to claim fouls in his fights (a fact) or that Tunney was a self centered social climbing racist (a fact) then prove me wrong. Because I can post articles where in 1921 while training for Carpentier Norfolk headed to Dempsey's camp to answer Dempsey's call for more sparring partners and was barred. I can cite the Gunboat Smith, Tommy Gibbons, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, and Battling Siki to name just a few off the top of my head in which Carpentier tried to claim a foul in order to either change the result of the fight or cast doubt upon it. Anyone wanting any proof at all that Tunney was a racist need look no further than the letter posted above. Look up the definition of racist and you will see that letter falls squarely within its guidelines.
> 
> ...


Your right on one thing, I'm not playing devil's advocate. Tunney is no hero of mine, I suspect he was a priggish,man who looked down on others,and was rather self absorbed, defects that appear to be more common than one might imagine !

Burden of Proof means the burden is on you to prove your statements, not on me to disprove them.If you prove them I will accept them why would I not?
I'm not mad ,I'm sitting here in shorts having a cup of iced tea , having just come in from the garden on a blissfully sunny day ,a garden to which I am about to return.

Tunney gave a reason why he fell out with Gibson his manager, he said it was because Gibson contracted him into agreements that he could not possibly fulfill,whether or not that is true I dont know, it is his explanation.

You keep mentioning," The Bottom Line"
Well here is the Bottom Line. Prove your statements are true with hard evidence, not just ",Klompton's Tablets From Mt Sinai".


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Burden of Proof means the burden is on you to prove your statements, not on me to disprove them.If you prove them I will accept them why would I not?
> I'm not mad ,I'm sitting here in shorts having a cup of iced tea , having just come in from the garden on a blissfully sunny day ,a garden to which I am about to return.
> 
> Tunney gave a reason why he fell out with Gibson his manager, he said it was because Gibson contracted him into agreements that he could not possibly fulfill,whether or not that is true I dont know, it is his explanation.
> ...


Something tells me there will never be enough proof for you. I mean, youll believe Tunney's excuse for cutting out Gibson after Gibson brought him everything he ever dreamed but you will completely ignore a letter by Tunney which is the very definition of racism as proof that Tunney is a racist. Cherry picking at its best.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Battling Siki
> Kid Norfolk
> Larry Estridge
> Jamaica Kid
> ...


 I've read Tunney tried to fight Siki and was rebuffed, maybe true may be not.
Clark was washed up ,maybe that's why Wills took the low risk fight? None of the others represented a decent $ return. Godfrey is a name I think shines by its absence.

In the six years leading up to his title challenge to Tunney had the following number of bouts.
1920.13
1921.8
1922 .13
1924. 12
1925.6.
That's 42 fights in 5 years.
Sure some were low level ,stay busy fights, but among them were.
Carpentier
Renault
Gibbons
Risko
Greb
Spalla
Wiggins
Smith
Houck
Weinert
Levinsky
Loughran
Delaney
Madden


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Something tells me there will never be enough proof for you. I mean, youll believe Tunney's excuse for cutting out Gibson after Gibson brought him everything he ever dreamed but you will completely ignore a letter by Tunney which is the very definition of racism as proof that Tunney is a racist. Cherry picking at its best.


"Something tells you?" Is that God speaking to you again?
I'll believe you quick enough, just as soon as you produce evidence to back up your claims. Don't like cherries much , but I've just had some strawberries and cream.

Are you dislexsic? I just told you I don't know if Tunney was giving a truthful explanation or not, as it's only his version of events,I suppose on one hand you might say it should carry more weight than your version , because at least he was there at the time.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> I've read Tunney tried to fight Siki and was rebuffed, maybe true may be not.
> Clark was washed up ,maybe that's why Wills took the low risk fight? None of the others represented a decent $ return. Godfrey is a name I think shines by its absence.
> 
> In the six years leading up to his title challenge to Tunney had the following number of bouts.
> ...


You are right. Tunney's record isnt notable for its utter lack of fighting or sparring with black fighters or the fact that he tried to move heaven and earth to keep a black fighter who had been waiting in the wings for seven years from his title shot...

Thats a nice list of marquee names you put up but you missed:

Bob Pierce
Budd Nelson
Jim Monahan
Ed kinley
Ko Sullivan
Jack Clifford
Jeff Madden
Johnny Ambrose
Eddie Josephs
Ray Thompson
Jack Hanlon
Ray Neumann
Jack Herman

and many more

Were those high reward, low risk fights that were more attractive than established names like Norfolk, Anderson, Lawson, Clark, Tate, Johnson, Flowers, Estridge, and Siki? Or were they just low risk? The point is not who was washed up or who was past their prime. Are you going to pretend Tunney never fought anyone washed up, or past their shelf life? Even some of those "name" fighters you list like Spalla, Wiggins, Houck, Delaney, and Madden at least would not have been as big a draw as Siki, Norfolk, Wills, or Flowers.

But thats right Tunney, who believes that there is inherent genetic imbalance among the races, was not racist and just was unlucky to never fight or spar with a black man, despite an admitted belief that blacks were athletically superior... The same guy who went to beyond mayweatherian lengths to make sure he had every advantage going into a fight didnt face what he thought was a physically superior race just by chance... Have fun on that boat ride up denial.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> You are right. Tunney's record isnt notable for its utter lack of fighting or sparring with black fighters or the fact that he tried to move heaven and earth to keep a black fighter who had been waiting in the wings for seven years from his title shot...
> 
> Thats a nice list of marquee names you put up but you missed:
> 
> ...


/

I've never suggested Tunney did not fight past prime opponents, his most noteworthy win was over one, most fighters championship victories are, it's the nature of the sport

I'm not denying anything ,Tunney did not fight a black boxer, neither did Loughran. Louis only defended against two was he a racist too?
If Tunnney thought blacks were athletically superior to whites I don't think blacks would necessarily see that as offensive, its as pc as "whitemen cant jump".

Several professors have put forward the thesis that Black athletes have faster twitch muscles than Caucasian ones and that is why they are in the main superior at sprint events.I've no idea if there is any scientific truth in their assertions.

Let me be very clear and reiterate this yet again.
My point of disagreement with you is your sweeping statements about long dead men whom you traduce with impunity and without proof.

Once again provide the proof and I will be happy to agree with you.


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

Is it really a big deal if he was a racist, self-hating drunkard? You can set him right along side Sullivan, Corbett and Jeffries. I find little comfort or intellectual reward casting aspersions from our lofty moral high ground of the 21st century. We must remember that those 100 years from now will consider us to be the barbarians we are. The human race is an evolving proposition.

Tunney was born poor, grew up hard and aspired to the easy life that was not far away from Greenwich Village geographically speaking. He carried with him the failings of the era, the failings of the poverty mentality (which tends to pit those in the same lot against one another). I am not suggesting he be forgiven. But nor should he be overly chastised. Outside of him financing the slave trade or being a Grand Wizard of the KKK, it just seems rather pointless persecution. Those were the times... and they were shitty times in many ways.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Seamus said:


> Is it really a big deal if he was a racist, self-hating drunkard? You can set him right along side Sullivan, Corbett and Jeffries. I find little comfort or intellectual reward casting aspersions from our lofty moral high ground of the 21st century. We must remember that those 100 years from now will consider us to be the barbarians we are. The human race is an evolving proposition.
> 
> Tunney was born poor, grew up hard and aspired to the easy life that was not far away from Greenwich Village geographically speaking. He carried with him the failings of the era, the failings of the poverty mentality (which tends to pit those in the same lot against one another). I am not suggesting he be forgiven. But nor should he be overly chastised. Outside of him financing the slave trade or being a Grand Wizard of the KKK, it just seems rather pointless persecution. Those were the times... and they were shitty times in many ways.


But when it's Dempsey it's terrible?


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Seamus said:


> Is it really a big deal if he was a racist, self-hating drunkard? You can set him right along side Sullivan, Corbett and Jeffries. I find little comfort or intellectual reward casting aspersions from our lofty moral high ground of the 21st century. We must remember that those 100 years from now will consider us to be the barbarians we are. The human race is an evolving proposition.
> 
> Tunney was born poor, grew up hard and aspired to the easy life that was not far away from Greenwich Village geographically speaking. He carried with him the failings of the era, the failings of the poverty mentality (which tends to pit those in the same lot against one another). I am not suggesting he be forgiven. But nor should he be overly chastised. Outside of him financing the slave trade or being a Grand Wizard of the KKK, it just seems rather pointless persecution. Those were the times... and they were shitty times in many ways.


It's no big deal to me .
Sullivan was a drunk and lived with prostitutes he was also not above throwing punches at "civilians".

John L was once so pissed he fell off the back of a speeding train , coming to rest in the middle of nowhere.

Corbett was a racist and consorted with hookers, he was also once arraigned for hitting his spouse.

Fitz was a quarrrelsome drunk.

Jeffries reneged on big bets he had placed with bookmakers and when he was contracted to fight in their state Rickard had to do a deal so many cents on the dollar to smooth things out.

Johnson was a congenital liar ,sometime wife beater, with a penchant for anal sex.

Louis was a serial adulterer.

More recently Robinson beat his wife into several miscarriages ,Corralles ,Mayweather,Gatti,Chacon,Mancini, Tyson were all guilty of domestic abuse,and Tyson of ear abuse as well!

Its almost a necessary qualification for some fighters.

We judge them on their fistic abilities ,or at least I do .

Klompton calls my posts,ignorant , biased, and ill-informed, he labels me lazy. I've found previously that if you disagree with him, however tentatively he quickly resorts to personal abuse.

My bone of contention is not whether Tunney was a racist, he probably was, it's with Klompton making sweeping statements without providing any evidence of their veracity.

Its up to him making these adamant allegations to prove them , not me to disprove them.
I feel if there is any laziness on this subject the fault lies in his direction,
If he will provide the proof I will happily accept his allegations.

As it stands now ,just because he says its true does not make it so. To me this seems a reasonable stance take .


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

I find it absolutely hilarious that you dont disagree with my statements, in fact you admit that the ones you have already verified with your lazy google searches are true, but rather your problem seems to be with how I say them, or the fact that I said them prior to you verifying them with Google. Yet Im biased and lazy? Do you really want to go down this road with me proving to you what I say is true? How many times have you seen someone say something ignorant like that on ESB or some other forum only for me to come back with a flood of information to back up what I say and as a result make the person in your shoes look like the informed lazy ass I call them? You would think that by now you would know that when I post on something its because I have a more than fair amount of knowledge on the subject and dont make outlandish, non factual claims based on nothing. So is that really what you want? And if so when I do come back with that flood of information that makes your comments above look like the butt hurt rantings of an ill informed child are you going to admit you are wrong or will simply keep arguing like you did when someone posted a letter by Tunney outlining his thoughts on race which are the definition of racism and you come back with: "Tunney may have been a racist. Not saying he was as I don't have any concrete proof and infact have never realized that he has never fought/sparred agaisnt a black fighter before " In short: Hi, I dont have all the facts but Im going to comment on the subject anyway because I want to add my two cents... even though they arent worth two cents... I mean the title of the thread is "why didnt Gene Tunney fight Blacks" you come on here trying to play devils advocate and then admit you didnt know Tunney never fought or sparred with african americans. But your going to question other people who clearly know more about the subject than you and demand that they post proof? Like I said, your ignorance is not my problem. If you want to get made to look stupid and completely shut down then fine say the word but I want to know prior to wasting that kind of time that youll admit you opened your big mouth when you should have kept quiet. You claim that if I say it it must be true. Like I said, I dont speak on it unless I know its true before hand, if that means saying it makes it true then so be it.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> I find it absolutely hilarious that you dont disagree with my statements, in fact you admit that the ones you have already verified with your lazy google searches are true, but rather your problem seems to be with how I say them, or the fact that I said them prior to you verifying them with Google. Yet Im biased and lazy? Do you really want to go down this road with me proving to you what I say is true? How many times have you seen someone say something ignorant like that on ESB or some other forum only for me to come back with a flood of information to back up what I say and as a result make the person in your shoes look like the informed lazy ass I call them? You would think that by now you would know that when I post on something its because I have a more than fair amount of knowledge on the subject and dont make outlandish, non factual claims based on nothing. So is that really what you want? And if so when I do come back with that flood of information that makes your comments above look like the butt hurt rantings of an ill informed child are you going to admit you are wrong or will simply keep arguing like you did when someone posted a letter by Tunney outlining his thoughts on race which are the definition of racism and you come back with: "Tunney may have been a racist. Not saying he was as I don't have any concrete proof and infact have never realized that he has never fought/sparred agaisnt a black fighter before " In short: Hi, I dont have all the facts but Im going to comment on the subject anyway because I want to add my two cents... even though they arent worth two cents... I mean the title of the thread is "why didnt Gene Tunney fight Blacks" you come on here trying to play devils advocate and then admit you didnt know Tunney never fought or sparred with african americans. But your going to question other people who clearly know more about the subject than you and demand that they post proof? Like I said, your ignorance is not my problem. If you want to get made to look stupid and completely shut down then fine say the word but I want to know prior to wasting that kind of time that youll admit you opened your big mouth when you should have kept quiet. You claim that if I say it it must be true. Like I said, I dont speak on it unless I know its true before hand, if that means saying it makes it true then so be it.


It's common knowledge Tunney never fought blacks, do you think I've just found it out? I do not disagree or agree with your statements , I simply do not accept them until you prove them.
I admit nothing at all, I have an open mind on Tunney.

No I don't have the facts about his behaviour outside the ring and I've asked you several times to provide them. So, instead of launching into another round of personal abuse ,why don't you be a good boy and do that?

If you are correct I will thank you for the information , but I've certainly nothing to apologise to you for, I havent contradicted you , just asked for confirmation via concrete proof of your statements.
Of course to someone as fatuously pompous and conceited as yourself that is tantamount to high treason
.

You really do have some ego, your comments about yourself are embarrassing in their self love. They amount to no mere mortal shall dare question Klompton

I remember some of your comments from other sites , such as Joe Louis knocked out Rocky Marciano's front teeth with his jab, total rubbish , you gleaned this mis-information from a post fight dressing room photo that showed him smiling at the camera , when it was pointed out to you that Marciano had front bridgework which he removed when fighting you did not reply, nor did you retract your statement.

You are entertaining up to a point but then your overweening self love begins to pall .You really do think you are wonderful don't you?
I wonder how long you will be able to hold your ego in check on this site , before letting rip and getting banned as you did on the last one?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

This thread was started: 23-07-13, 03:39 PM titled Why didnt Tunney fight blacks?

Yesterday at 8:09 you posted: "Not saying he was as I don't have any concrete proof and infact have never realized that he has never fought/sparred agaisnt a black fighter"

Today you post: "It's common knowledge Tunney never fought blacks, do you think I've just found it out?"

So which is it? flip flop much?


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> But when it's Dempsey it's terrible?


Had Tunney stayed atop the heavyweight division and avoided his two best challengers, then I would have a major problem from a boxing legacy standpoint. Rather, his heavyweight career was a version of "capture the flag" at the end of a long career at lightheavy.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> It's common knowledge Tunney never fought blacks, do you think I've just found it out? I do not disagree or agree with your statements , I simply do not accept them until you prove them.
> I admit nothing at all, I have an open mind on Tunney.
> 
> No I don't have the facts about his behaviour outside the ring and I've asked you several times to provide them. So, instead of launching into another round of personal abuse ,why don't you be a good boy and do that?
> ...


People like you, who dont know what they are talking about, are always threatened by someone who does and as a result typically call their confidence in their knowledge on the subject "ego." I once again point out that you admit you dont have all the facts, dont necessarily disagree with me, and yet continue to argue apparently simply because you dont like the tone of my posts. Tough, if debating with someone who knows more about the subject than you threatens you then keep your mouth shut and try to learn something instead of popping off about subjects you admit you have a less than serviceable knowledge of. Either that or get back to your garden and your bowl of strawberries and cream... Check back here later today for a detailed post giving you the sources to back up my "sweeping claims" and when I do I expect an apology for your knee jerk reaction and an admission that you were wrong and spoke about a subject you knew next to nothing about.


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Seamus said:


> Is it really a big deal if he was a racist, self-hating drunkard? You can set him right along side Sullivan, Corbett and Jeffries. I find little comfort or intellectual reward casting aspersions from our lofty moral high ground of the 21st century. We must remember that those 100 years from now will consider us to be the barbarians we are. The human race is an evolving proposition.
> 
> Tunney was born poor, grew up hard and aspired to the easy life that was not far away from Greenwich Village geographically speaking. He carried with him the failings of the era, the failings of the poverty mentality (which tends to pit those in the same lot against one another). I am not suggesting he be forgiven. But nor should he be overly chastised. Outside of him financing the slave trade or being a Grand Wizard of the KKK, it just seems rather pointless persecution. Those were the times... and they were shitty times in many ways.


Good post, especially the last sentence.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> This thread was started: 23-07-13, 03:39 PM titled Why didnt Tunney fight blacks?
> 
> Yesterday at 8:09 you posted: "Not saying he was as I don't have any concrete proof and infact have never realized that he has never fought/sparred agaisnt a black fighter"
> 
> ...


 I was right! You are dyslexic. I never made that statement, go back and check.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> People like you, who dont know what they are talking about, are always threatened by someone who does and as a result typically call their confidence in their knowledge on the subject "ego." I once again point out that you admit you dont have all the facts, dont necessarily disagree with me, and yet continue to argue apparently simply because you dont like the tone of my posts. Tough, if debating with someone who knows more about the subject than you threatens you then keep your mouth shut and try to learn something instead of popping off about subjects you admit you have a less than serviceable knowledge of. Either that or get back to your garden and your bowl of strawberries and cream... Check back here later today for a detailed post giving you the sources to back up my "sweeping claims" and when I do I expect an apology for your knee jerk reaction and an admission that you were wrong and spoke about a subject you knew next to nothing about.


More personal abuse for anyone who dares question the Great Klompton.

On Eastside several excellent posters took you to task about your manner, and the fact that you resort to personal attacks the minute some one queries your pronouncements.
You have a serious personality disorder to go with being dyslexic.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> I was right! You are dyslexic. I never made that statement, go back and check.


I stand corrected and can admit when Im wrong. That makes one of us.

I may have been taken to task for my demeanor but nobody ever called me a liar or ignorant of what I was posting. I could care less if people think Im warm and cuddly.


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## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

Why did not Joe louis fight blacks?


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

He fought two. And many more * Afro* Americans.

Just picking on @Seamus a little. So Kearns had all those writers in his back pocket but Tunney earned his praise?


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Cove to think of it Ezzard Charles and Jimmy Bivins might have been black...


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Just from the things in this thread a little bit of googling I egt the impression he was really rascist and an asshole but that has of course nothing to do with his accomplishments as a boxer many great boxers were assholes even if he handpicked opponents and whatever he was at the very least a very good boxer. But yeah i don't think it were just the times he lived in for example Dempsey he also said rascist things but he sparred with black guys and it didn't seem like he really hated them he was just a product of the times and later on I believe he really wasn't much of a rascist at all. It's of course just a short tv show but you don't get the impression that they dislike each other and I think you would see if Louis was uncomfortable in the clip so I think he didn't get the impression that Dempsey disliked him. Tunney ont eh other hand really seems like an asshole which of course takes nothing away from him as a boxer





BTW Dempsey seems shorter than 6'1''


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> I stand corrected and can admit when Im wrong. That makes one of us.
> 
> I may have been taken to task for my demeanor but nobody ever called me a liar or ignorant of what I was posting. I could care less if people think Im warm and cuddly.


 May have been ? There is no uncertainty about it you were.
Nobody called you a liar or ignorant simply because they had better manners than you and contented themselves by saying you were either.
1. Mistaken 2. Had provided no proof as to the veracity of your statements.

You can admit when you are wrong ,you really don't have choice here do you? Its so easily verified. Pity you did not admit you were mistaken about Marciano, your stock would have risen considerably. Feel threatend by you? No chance neither mentally or physically,Illinois is a long way from where I live, though there have been times during our exchange I sincerely wished it wasn't!

I thank you for the retraction , and await your proof which will both educate ,and entertain me for free.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Feel threatend by you? No chance neither mentally or physically,Illinois is a long way from where I live, though there have been times during our exchange I sincerely wished it wasn't!
> 
> 
> 
> > Oooh a tough keyboard warrior. You and Alan Sugar... Ive never hid behind my computer screen. You can easily find out where I live and are welcome to leave your garden and your strawberries any time.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Cormac said:
> 
> 
> > Feel threatend by you? No chance neither mentally or physically,Illinois is a long way from where I live, though there have been times during our exchange I sincerely wished it wasn't!
> ...


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> He fought two. And many more * Afro* Americans.
> 
> Just picking on @Seamus a little. So Kearns had all those writers in his back pocket but Tunney earned his praise?


I don't get it... a bit sleep deprived.


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> Just from the things in this thread a little bit of googling I egt the impression he was really rascist and an asshole but that has of course nothing to do with his accomplishments as a boxer many great boxers were assholes even if he handpicked opponents and whatever he was at the very least a very good boxer. But yeah i don't think it were just the times he lived in for example Dempsey he also said rascist things but he sparred with black guys and it didn't seem like he really hated them he was just a product of the times and later on I believe he really wasn't much of a rascist at all. It's of course just a short tv show but you don't get the impression that they dislike each other and I think you would see if Louis was uncomfortable in the clip so I think he didn't get the impression that Dempsey disliked him. Tunney ont eh other hand really seems like an asshole which of course takes nothing away from him as a boxer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he does seem shorter..but maybe he had on actual boxing shoes with Louis having dress shoes with a heal...also...Dempsey might have shrunk a bit...you usually start getting a bit shorter as you get older....


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Seamus said:


> I don't get it... a bit sleep deprived.


It was an old thread @Boxed Ears gave everyone of Louis' opponents Afros. You had to be there...


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

On Tunney being a guy who would walk all over anyone who had helped him once he got what he wanted, how he went behind the scenes to block Wills, how he was not sincere when he called Wills out to fight, and that he was generally an egotistical slimeball who was not afraid to dip into the cesspool to get what he wanted despite cultivating a squeeky clean image:

The easiest way to frame this would be a timeline:

June 1925 Tunney defeats Tommy Gibbons in a match that he hoped would establish him as a contender for Dempsey

July 1925 Tunney knocks out Italian Jack Herman. Rickard, according to Tunney, promises to make Tunney the heavyweight champion.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Pt1PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1QDAAAAIBAJ&dq=tunney sued&pg=4991,6792375

August 1925 Rickard approaches Tunney in private with an offer to face Dempsey the following year. He tells Tunney that Dempsey is sick, out of shape and ready for the taking. He tells Dempsey that

Tunney will be an easier fight than Wills. 








At the same time he is secretly negotiating with Tunney he is publicly telling the New York State Athletic Commission that he is doing everything he can

to match Dempsey and Wills. At this same time Kearns signed an agreement with the New York State Athletic Commission binding Dempsey to face Wills. Dempsey repudiated this agreement and broke with

Kearns. Kearns had only signed the agreement in order for the commission to allow Mickey Walker to face Dave Shade and Kearns to second him after they had banned him from acting in any capacity at

Walker's bout with Greb the previous month. Just as Wills is apparently (I say apparently because this was all smoke and mirrors as well) on the verge of signing to face Dempsey Tunney challenges

Wills.

September 1926 Tunney knocks out Bartley Madden in a fight many thought was suspicious. Madden was an extremely durable fighter who had gone the distance with both Wills and Gibbons yet the lighter hitting Tunney stopped him easily. Afterwards the angle was played up that Tunney did what the others could not.

January 1926 Rickard begins making solid offers for the fight to both Dempsey and Tunney. Gibson, signing for Tunney, agrees for Tunney to face Dempsey in September. Both Tunney and Dempsey

publicly deny any knowledge of these negotiations.

March 1926 Tunney signs to face Dempsey.

April 1926 Tunney and Gibson enlist the aid of well connected bookmaker Tim Mara to influence officials, curry favor, and anything else necessary for to ultimately get the New York State Athletic

Commission to go back on its stance that Harry Wills be given first shot at Dempsey in favor of Tunney.

January through May 1926 there was intermittent talk by Tunney and Rickard of matching Tunney with Wills. As can be seen by both the testimony of Tunney (who admitted he had already signed to face

Dempsey) and Tim Mara (who stated this was designed to "show up" Wills as ballyhoo for the fight in order to force a Dempsey-Tunney fight and establish Tunney as a challenger) this was just talk. 









All parties involved knew that Wills stance was clear: He intended to forgo fighting endless eliminations and would stand on the commissions ruling that Dempsey give him first shot or be banned.

Throughout the spring and summer Gibson, Tunney and Mara work extremely hard lobbying officials across the country for support.

























June 1926 Tunney writes Mara that he will receive 25% of all moneys Tunney earns after he wins the trial
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...EAAAAIBAJ&dq=tunney wins mara&pg=5629,3973034

Late July 1926 The commission stands by Wills and refuses to allow Dempsey to face Tunney in New York. Rickard begins shopping other locations where decisions are legal, namely Chicago and

Philadelphia.

Mid August Rickard finalizes plans to promote the bout at Philadelphia.

Late August Tunney announces that if he wins the title he will draw the color line and absolutely refuses to defend against Wills.









September 22, 1926 Billy Gibson and Gene Tunney approach racketeer, bootlegger, and politico Max Boo Boo Hoff. They sign over 20% of Tunney's future earnings to Hoff in exchange for "one dollar and

other good and valuable services" One stipulation of the contract was that it would not go into effect unless Tunney won the championship. It was alleged by insiders (which is pretty obvious) that

the "good and valuable services) were Hoff's assurances that Tunney would win the championship under any circumstances. Tunney, whose full name was James Joseph Tunney, signed the contract "Eugene

Joseph Tunney" Make note of that Tunney signed, not Gibson, as Tunney later alleged.

























September 23, 1926 Tunney wins the heavyweight championship. Immediately he begins to avoid Tim Mara and Boo Boo Hoff. 

















Fall 1926 Tunney splits from Gibson offering to keep him on as manager at a much reduced percentage.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&dq=tunney gibson split&pg=3580,2500662

December 1926 Tunney is sued by Mara for failing to live up to their agreement.

January 1927 Hoff threatens Tunney with lawsuit.

November 1927 Hoff files lawsuit against Tunney.

November 1930 Tunney wins his suit against Mara, due in large part to the fact that there was no written contract between the two and the fact that the fight was not held in New York, which Tunney alleged was what Mara was hired to do. Mara appeals.

January 1931 Hoff withdraws his suit, no explanation is given some believe it was because Hoff would be unable to testify what "good and valuable services" he provided Tunney without incriminating himself or others.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...NAAAAIBAJ&dq=tunney sued hoff&pg=1416,1354550

October 1932 Tunney tries to have the second hearing against Mara postponed unsuccessfully.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...EAAAAIBAJ&dq=tunney suit mara&pg=5724,4646923

November 1932 Tunney tries to have Mara's case thrown out unsuccessfully.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...EAAAAIBAJ&dq=tunney wins mara&pg=5629,3973034

January 1933 Tunney settles the lawsuit with Tim Mara paying Mara $30,000
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAIBAJ&dq=tunney settled mara&pg=2385,762813

Now in addition to all of this Tunney had public splits with other early supporters like William J. McCormick, brother of Harry McCormick at whose Red Bank, N.J. home Tunney trained and lived for much of his career. McCormick supposedly knocked Tunney out in a street fight but I can only find anectdotal accounts of this. Al Smith and Jim Farley were also attacked by Tunney after being early supporters of him, due to their support of Wills getting a title shot (in order to gain the black vote).

I could go even further back and list all of the garbage surrounding his fights with Greb but the above should suffice to paint a pretty ugly picture of a guy who was being marketed as the all american boy. If you find this sort of thing admirable then we can agree to disagree.

As far as the Mara and Hoff cases are concerned I could care less who won the case, What is far more interesting are the details that emerged about the behind the scenes deals. My own personal opinion after reading much of these cases is that both guys were half right. I do believe that Tunney felt Mara's influence was expressly for the purpose of getting him the New York venue. BUT ultimately the venue is not what mattered. The only thing that mattered was that Tunney get a shot at the title, get it before Wills, and make sure it was to a decision. There is no denying that he didnt have the backing to do that until Mara worked his ass off pulling the strings which ultimately got Tunney enough recognition to leap frog Wills. Taken along with the fact that Tunney admitted offering to pay Mara for those services and offered to cut him on a percentage afterwards Id say yes Tunney is a pretty damn ungrateful friend to a guy who had been a supporter of his since at least 1922 when he lost a ton of money betting on Tunney to beat Greb. To me its clear that Tunney and Gibson both actively sought Hoff's protection, the willfully signed that contract, and most telling is the fact that Tunney had enough foresight to sign it using a fake name which later cast doubt on its authenticity (despite Tunney admitting he signed it). There is also no doubt in my mind when you look at the timeline and compare it with the testimony that Tunney never had any intention of facing Wills, period. Every time he called Wills out one or both of them was either already tied up, or were actively working behind the scenes for a Dempsey fight which would preclude the need for either to face each other. Given some of the other articles here, and the letter posted by Tunney, there is no doubt the guy was a racist. There is also no doubt, based on his demeaner in the testimony (which was evasive, coy, and condescending, anecdotal accounts of him, and some of the press's reaction to him that he thought he was better and smarter than most other people.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

That was a fascinating read. Who says there's no place for politics in sports?


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

On Dempsey refusing to spar with Norfolk:

After Dempsey had a very difficult fight against Bill Brennan in December of 1921 it was said that Dempsey should avoid Kid Norfolk who sparred with Brennan for the Dempsey fight.









This talk continued through January when there was talk of matching Wills and Norfolk for an eliminator to Dempsey's title. In April of 1921 Kearns floated a story that he had secured Norfolk as a sparring partner for Dempsey for the upcoming Carpentier bout. Leo P. Flynn, Norfolk's manager denied this and stated that Norfolk wanted Dempsey for the title not as a sparring partner:









In May Norfolk and Leo P. Flynn put out a statement that they would act as Dempsey's sparring if Dempsey would agree to face Norfolk for the title. 









Kearns refused then denied that he had ever addressed Norfolk specifically. Anyone who studies Kearns at length will note that he was a master of this type of double talk. He makes Bob Arums "I was lying yesterday, today Im telling the truth." Seem downright tame:









On June 21, 1921 Norfolk showed up at Dempsey's camp offering his services.

On June 24 Dempsey still had not accepted Norfolk's offer to spar and it was announced that Dempsey's condition was so good he no longer had any need of sparring partners like Norfolk or Greb (who was on his way to join Dempsey's camp).


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> That was a fascinating read. Who says there's no place for politics in sports?


Isnt it? I highly recommend people read as much about this case as you can. Its pretty nuts what all came out. I just got tired of pulling all that stuff together but theres a lot more between the two Mara trials and the Hoff stuff. Those things went on for years and lots of ugly stuff came out. Most of it Tunney didnt even deny, he was more interested in protecting his money, which to me illustrates that his time in boxing was more of an means to an end (which it is for most boxers but most still seem to have it in their blood and have a genuine love for the sport).


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

Cormac said:


> Have you proof of this?
> He seems quite comfortable eating a meal with Joe Louis, and shaking his hand .http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-p...ACME/boxers-joe-louis-and-gene-tunney-sharing


of course here is Jeffries seeming pretty damn decent with some happy black boys...










most racists are racist to various degrees..with most not being of the opinion that we should kill black people or whatever......

the fact that you can find someone seeming decent to a black person doesn't mean a great deal.....


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Isnt it? I highly recommend people read as much about this case as you can. Its pretty nuts what all came out. I just got tired of pulling all that stuff together but theres a lot more between the two Mara trials and the Hoff stuff. Those things went on for years and lots of ugly stuff came out. Most of it Tunney didnt even deny, he was more interested in protecting his money, which to me illustrates that his time in boxing was more of an means to an end (which it is for most boxers but most still seem to have it in their blood and have a genuine love for the sport).


Mara is of course better known as the founder of the new York football giants (and a bookmaker), apparently after billy Gibson passed on the NFL's offer (which admittedly took like 30 years to pay off). Very interesting to see him moving around behind the scenes for something other than the NFL. The Maras are kind of the Kennedys of the NFL right down to the disreputable patriarch.

As for Tunney while I wouldn't call what he did admirable, it is refreshing to see the boxer ripping off the promoters as opposed to the normal way of things at least on the higher echelon. It seemed Tunney knew what he wanted and exactly how to get it. Burned his bridges though didn't he?


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> Mara is of course better known as the founder of the new York football giants (and a bookmaker), apparently after billy Gibson passed on the NFL's offer (which admittedly took like 30 years to pay off). Very interesting to see him moving around behind the scenes for something other than the NFL. The Maras are kind of the Kennedys of the NFL right down to the disreputable patriarch.
> 
> As for Tunney while I wouldn't call what he did admirable, it is refreshing to see the boxer ripping off the promoters as opposed to the normal way of things at least on the higher echelon. It seemed Tunney knew what he wanted and exactly how to get it. Burned his bridges though didn't he?


Tunney was not going to renew his contract with Gibson because he was unhappy with Gibson signing him up to unacceptable contracts. Gibson ,with the help of Mara had a clause inserted that not only would he stay Tunney's manager but that he would have a greater imput and share of his purses. Tunney did not sign his name to any contract with Mara , under pressure he signed one contract with the name Eugene Joseph Tunney, this was void because Tunney's name was James Joseph Tunney.Neither Hoff or Mara were successful in their law suits, Mara ,suing for over $500,000, settled for a paltry $30,000.
If either had a valid case 1. Surely they would have pursued it.2. Surely the courts would have found in their favour.

Once Tunney was champion he told Wills publicly , via the newspapers that Wills would never get a title shot with him, and he gave as his reason that Wills had not only refused to meet him for the right to meet Dempsey , but also, with the connivance of his manager did everything he could to stop the Tunney title challenge occuring. If this was not true ,why did not Wills and his manager Paddy Mullins sue Tunney for libel?

Nowhere in the interesting news clips is there any conclusive proof that Tunney did anything illegal .

The Dempsey clips do not say Dempsey was frightened to spar with Kid Norfolk at all, they say that Norfolk via his manager insisted that as a condition for it to take place Dempsey would have to agree to give Norfolk the next title shot.

Dempsey and Kearns refused to do this.

Klompton has provided some interesting information, but if a lawyer read it he would find there was no proof of Klompton's earlier accusations on these matters. ,imo. I had rather hoped for something more definitive and clear cut but if this is the best that is forth coming then absorbing as it maybe, it is not hard evidence or proof that
he is right ,and attaching personal interpretations to back up your previous claims under each news-read is neither relevant or proof .


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Tunney was not going to renew his contract with Gibson because he was unhappy with Gibson signing him up to unacceptabe contracts. Gibson ,with the help of Mara had a clause inserted that not onlt would he stay Tunney's manager but that he would have a greater imput and share of his purses. Tunney did not sign his name to any contract with Mara , under pressure he signed one contract with the name Eugene Joseph Tunney, this was void because Tunney's name was James Joseph Tunney.Neither Hoff or Mara were successful in their law suits, Mara ,suing for over $500,000, settled for a paltry $30,000.
> If either had a valid case 1. Surely they would have pursued it.2. Surely the courts would have found in their favour.
> 
> Once Tunney was champion he told Wills publicly , via the newspapers that Wills wold never get a title shot with him, and he gave as his reason that Wills had not only refused to meet him for the right to meet Dempsey , but also, with the connivance of his manager did everything he could to stop the Tunney title challenge occuring. If this was not true ,why did not Wills and his manager Paddy Mulins sue Tunney for libel?
> ...


Wait, lets be clear on something: Like I said, I dont care who won what BUT Tunney was actively pursuing the help of these guys. Dont sit there and pretend that he was forced to accept their help under enormous pressure. Telegrams which Tunney admitted he sent had Tunney promising Mara payment for his help and pleading for that help. It was Tunney and Gibson who sought the help of Hoff, not the other way around. Dont tell me he was under enormous pressure. The guy wanted to win the title at all costs and was willing to do what it take, actively seeking ANY means. Nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to sign. He also actively sought the help of Gibson back in 1923 due specifically too Gibson's influence, connections, and ability to bring results. He purchased his contract from his previous manager and actively sought Gibson's services (which included associations with Arnold Rothstein, numerous politicos, newspaper writers, officials, bookmakers etc.) He did this at the time to ensure one of the most crooked victorys ever over Greb in their rematch to get his title back. So lets not pretend that he was absolutely shocked by Gibson's behavior. Second Tunney did in fact sign one of those contracts Mara presented. If you read the articles you would see that and he even admitted it. Third Tunney signing under a different name does not automatically invalidate a contract, particularly not in that era. It was not unusual for someone to sign a contract with an "X" its where the old saying "make your mark" comes from. Had the contract been invalidated the case would have been thrown out. It wasnt. Hoff withdrew, it was alleged, because he knew he couldnt win without implicating himself. Its also why Mara tried to argue that he was not brought in to "straighten out politicians" which he was, and which was proven in court. 4. The courts never got to the point where they could decide in anyones favor and dont pretend they did. Mara's appeal was upheld and found to have enough merit that despite Tunney's machinations it was ordered to go forward at which point Tunney settled. One could easily make the argument: "why did Tunney settle if his case was so strong?" Another point is that Mara's original suit was for less than $30,000 so he actually ended up getting more than he originally sued for in 1927. 5. A "paltry" $30,000??? $30,000 in 1933 had the buying power of over half a million dollars. Id say Mara did pretty good for a guy who according to you had no case. 6. Note when Tunney publicly drew the color line. It was BEFORE he won the championship. Yes Tunney gave "his reason" as saying Wills refused to fight him but its clear that this was disengenous at best considering Tunney never intended to fight Wills to begin with. 6. Of course Wills and Mullins wanted to block Tunney from a title shot. Wills had been Dempsey's top contender since before Tunney was even considered anything at all in the sport of boxing. They had a forfeit on file for years binding a match with Dempsey and the backing of the NYSAC. Argue any way you want but Tunney was clearly the one in the wrong on the side of this. 7 When did I say he did anything illegal? 8. I said Dempsey refused to spar with Norfolk. He did. I dont care what his supposed reasoning was. There was a pattern there of Dempsey avoiding tough challenges and Norfolk was one. Kearns tried to get publicity by pretending Norfolk was going to work with Dempsey and when Norfolk called him on it Dempsey and Kearns balked. Read it how you want but thats pretty obvious, particularly in light of the fact that Norfolk showed up at Dempsey's camp AFTER Kearns said they wouldnt guarantee him a shot at the title.

Thats all moot though because like I said, I knew you would wiggle and squirm and pretend this was all meaningless. The bottom line is there is a clear pattern of Tunney's behavior and willingness to shit all over anyone to get what he wanted and once he had it he discarded them. You want to live in denial and pretend there was absolutely nothing to this mountain of shit that was revealed about him? Fine. But like I said, you are in denial. This was just the tip of the iceberg to a pattern that dated back years before this. As I said, its not my responsibility to educate you so I will end here but I think it should obvious to most what was going on and that Tunney could walk up to you, borrow a dollar, slap you in the face and then call you racist name and you would still come back here and pretend he was a great guy just to avoid admitting you were wrong.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Wait, lets be clear on something: Like I said, I dont care who won what BUT Tunney was actively pursuing the help of these guys. Dont sit there and pretend that he was forced to accept their help under enormous pressure. Telegrams which Tunney admitted he sent had Tunney promising Mara payment for his help and pleading for that help. It was Tunney and Gibson who sought the help of Hoff, not the other way around. Dont tell me he was under enormous pressure. The guy wanted to win the title at all costs and was willing to do what it take, actively seeking ANY means. Nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to sign. He also actively sought the help of Gibson back in 1923 due specifically too Gibson's influence, connections, and ability to bring results. He purchased his contract from his previous manager and actively sought Gibson's services (which included associations with Arnold Rothstein, numerous politicos, newspaper writers, officials, bookmakers etc.) He did this at the time to ensure one of the most crooked victorys ever over Greb in their rematch to get his title back. So lets not pretend that he was absolutely shocked by Gibson's behavior. Second Tunney did in fact sign one of those contracts Mara presented. If you read the articles you would see that and he even admitted it. Third Tunney signing under a different name does not automatically invalidate a contract, particularly not in that era. It was not unusual for someone to sign a contract with an "X" its where the old saying "make your mark" comes from. Had the contract been invalidated the case would have been thrown out. It wasnt. Hoff withdrew, it was alleged, because he knew he couldnt win without implicating himself. Its also why Mara tried to argue that he was not brought in to "straighten out politicians" which he was, and which was proven in court. 4. The courts never got to the point where they could decide in anyones favor and dont pretend they did. Mara's appeal was upheld and found to have enough merit that despite Tunney's machinations it was ordered to go forward at which point Tunney settled. One could easily make the argument: "why did Tunney settle if his case was so strong?" Another point is that Mara's original suit was for less than $30,000 so he actually ended up getting more than he originally sued for in 1927. 5. A "paltry" $30,000??? $30,000 in 1933 had the buying power of over half a million dollars. Id say Mara did pretty good for a guy who according to you had no case. 6. Note when Tunney publicly drew the color line. It was BEFORE he won the championship. Yes Tunney gave "his reason" as saying Wills refused to fight him but its clear that this was disengenous at best considering Tunney never intended to fight Wills to begin with. 6. Of course Wills and Mullins wanted to block Tunney from a title shot. Wills had been Dempsey's top contender since before Tunney was even considered anything at all in the sport of boxing. They had a forfeit on file for years binding a match with Dempsey and the backing of the NYSAC. Argue any way you want but Tunney was clearly the one in the wrong on the side of this. 7 When did I say he did anything illegal? 8. I said Dempsey refused to spar with Norfolk. He did. I dont care what his supposed reasoning was. There was a pattern there of Dempsey avoiding tough challenges and Norfolk was one. Kearns tried to get publicity by pretending Norfolk was going to work with Dempsey and when Norfolk called him on it Dempsey and Kearns balked. Read it how you want but thats pretty obvious, particularly in light of the fact that Norfolk showed up at Dempsey's camp AFTER Kearns said they wouldnt guarantee him a shot at the title.
> 
> Thats all moot though because like I said, I knew you would wiggle and squirm and pretend this was all meaningless. The bottom line is there is a clear pattern of Tunney's behavior and willingness to shit all over anyone to get what he wanted and once he had it he discarded them. You want to live in denial and pretend there was absolutely nothing to this mountain of shit that was revealed about him? Fine. But like I said, you are in denial. This was just the tip of the iceberg to a pattern that dated back years before this. As I said, its not my responsibility to educate you so I will end here but I think it should obvious to most what was going on and that Tunney could walk up to you, borrow a dollar, slap you in the face and then call you racist name and you would still come back here and pretend he was a great guy just to avoid admitting you were wrong.


 I'll get back to you later, dont fret S.C.


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

Klompton said:


> July 1925 Tunney knocks out Bartley Madden in a fight many thought was suspicious. Madden was an extremely durable fighter who had gone the distance with both Wills and Gibbons yet the lighter
> 
> hitting Tunney stopped him easily. Afterwards the angle was played up that Tunney did what the others could not. Rickard, according to Tunney, promises to make Tunney the heavyweight champion.


That's a stretch. If Madden were to take a dive, two things seem unusual. 1) He got hammered by a right for a 9 count and got up to take a left hook that put him out. 2) He was out on the canvas for 10 minutes.

Reviewing the evidence the New York Athletic Commission cleared both fighters of any suspicion two months after the fight. They also cleared Tunney from suspicion over his Jack Herman KO, which just seems ridiculous as Herman was pretty much a ham and egger who was no stranger to the doleful decimal. One might deduce that somebody had something out for Tunney.

Tunney had issues with his hands for some time. According to the Cavanaugh bio, these issues seemed to subside later in his career. When his hands were healthy, he was known to be quite a hard puncher.

Thanks for the great post, tho. I will try to digest more later, as time allows.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Seamus said:


> That's a stretch. If Madden were to take a dive, two things seem unusual. 1) He got hammered by a right for a 9 count and got up to take a left hook that put him out. 2) He was out on the canvas for 10 minutes.
> 
> Reviewing the evidence the New York Athletic Commission cleared both fighters of any suspicion two months after the fight. They also cleared Tunney from suspicion over his Jack Herman KO, which just seems ridiculous as Herman was pretty much a ham and egger who was no stranger to the doleful decimal. One might deduce that somebody had something out for Tunney.
> 
> ...


I never said the fight was a fix just that a lot of people thought it was a fix. That is born out by the articles I posted, both contemporary and after the fact. That the New York State Athletic Commission cleared Tunney and Madden means nothing to me. That fight was held 1000 miles away at a venue where the NYSAC had no dominion and in fact no officials present. Frankly, why would they even have an investigation into a fight that they had nothing to do with? The fact that they saw fit to put in their two cents tells me two things: 1. It was suspicious enough to warrant the possibility of action in other states, or 2. Someone on the commission was interested in preserving the home town boys rep. How extensive an investigation they could have launched is speculative at best. They had no officials present, no film of the fight, and no power to subpoena any evidence in connection with fight. In essence the extent of their investigation was: We hear that Tunney and Madden faked it, show us evidence that they did, no? Tunney and Madden are cleared. Please! It was an investigation in name only. In reality it was a bunch of officials sitting on their hands. I would question why the buildup to Tunney-Madden got so much press in New York angling it as "if Tunney knocks out Madden he should get a shot at the title" when prior to the fight nobody expected Tunney to knockout Madden and when it was a fight between Tunney and a guy who had lost two of his last three in one sided fashion and was known primarily for being able to take a good beating? The fight was held in the sticks and New York rarely concerned themselves with fights held outside of its jurisdiction, particularly fights of this magnitude. Tunney Greb got less press in New York than Tunney Madden and then suddenly, just like papers were wondering, Tunney shows up and knocks Madden out. Joe Williams, a great sportswriter from Cleveland with his ear to the ground heard that Madden was paid $25,000 for the fight. Thats an astronomical purse for Minneapolis at the time for this type of fight. Madden himself said he was paid $10,000 ($5,000 more than his contract was for) what was this extra $5,000 for, his sterling performance? By comparison Greb (a champion) and Tunney each made $6,500 for their fight across the river in St. Paul at similarly sized Auditorium. The gate was $25,000 for that fight. So why on earth would Madden have been paid even $5,000 much less $10,000 or $25,000?? Its stuff like this that raises questions. Its possible that Tunney's career simply has a ton of unfortunate coincidences that make him look bad but where theres smoke theres fire and there was a ton of smoke emanating from Tunney's direction for years.

I agree that the claim that Tunney-Herman was fixed seems strange. Herman was nothing. The only thing I can deduce is that the circumstances of the stoppage may have looked odd. Ive never researched this fight though and its fairly inconsequential to me.


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## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

Tunney was a dirtbag


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

heavyweightcp said:


> Tunney was a dirtbag


As were Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey (tho reformed in later life)... and many others...


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## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

Seamus said:


> As were Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey (tho reformed in later life)... and many others...


Being a nice person is not a prerequisite for a successful pugilistic career.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Wow that was a great read. Fuck Tunney :-(


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Wow that was a great read. Fuck Tunney :-(


:lol:.So Tunney was an evil racist eh? He wasn't the fair minded, colorblind kind of guy that Bernard Hopkins is, in other words.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

What does Bernard Hopkins have to do with this?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Cobra is probably a thin veiled racist himself.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Klompton said:


> What does Bernard Hopkins have to do with this?


Last I checked Hopkins had no problem beating on whites, blacks, Ricans or Mexicans.


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Wow that was a great read. Fuck Tunney :-(


He still had one of the greatest careers ever, beat some hall of fame types and looks great of film.


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

Seamus said:


> He still had one of the greatest careers ever, beat some hall of fame types and looks great of film.


Yes of course....really the negative shit only applies to Dempsey..


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

No it doesn't. I only posted negative stuff in relation to Dempsey. He pulled the same stuff in the Greb fights and there are questions, as I stated above, surrounding his fight with Madden. There is definitely enough to suggest he had a history of this kind of behavior.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Seamus said:


> That's a stretch. If Madden were to take a dive, two things seem unusual. 1) He got hammered by a right for a 9 count and got up to take a left hook that put him out. 2) He was out on the canvas for 10 minutes.
> 
> Reviewing the evidence the New York Athletic Commission cleared both fighters of any suspicion two months after the fight. They also cleared Tunney from suspicion over his Jack Herman KO, which just seems ridiculous as Herman was pretty much a ham and egger who was no stranger to the doleful decimal. One might deduce that somebody had something out for Tunney.
> 
> ...


 I idea that Tunney could not punch as hard as Giibbons is highly debatable.
Tunney could hit .Madden was floored for an 8 count by comparatively light hitting Greb yet gave Wills life an death .

Because Tunney accomplished what harder punchers had not done means the fight was fixed is a silly premise.

Ali dropped a lot of men that had stayed upright against bigger punchers it doesn't mean they all tanked.

This has Agenda with a capital A written all over it.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Some great reading here.

To me Tunney is a bit like Mayweather in that he probably cherry picked his way to the top yet looks amazing on film.

One of the goats imo.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

I guess the bottom line is that he didn't have to. It's not like he avoided every threat- the Mayweather comparison seems apt Luf.

And that's uncalled for turbo.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Seamus said:


> He still had one of the greatest careers ever, beat some hall of fame types and looks great of film.


Sure he did but if it wasn't for a fat drunk Dempsey Tunney would be a footnote in Greb's real ATG career


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Sure he did but if it wasn't for a fat drunk Dempsey Tunney would be a footnote in Greb's real ATG career


,
Dempsey was never much of a drinker, not even in his Hollywood days.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> I idea that Tunney could not punch as hard as Giibbons is highly debatable.
> Tunney could hit .Madden was floored for an 8 count by comparatively light hitting Greb yet gave Wills life an death .
> 
> Because Tunney accomplished what harder punchers had not done means the fight was fixed is a silly premise.
> ...


Not according to Tunney's contemporaries who knew more about the the situation than you or I and recorded their thoughts for posterity. And that wasnt the premise to begin with. Most were following the money trail which raises a lot of questions. Your unwillingness to budge on your original stance (which you admit was the result of a lack of knowledge) is more of an example of an agenda.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Not according to Tunney's contemporaries who knew more about the the situation than you or I and recorded their thoughts for posterity. And that wasnt the premise to begin with. Most were following the money trail which raises a lot of questions. Your unwillingness to budge on your original stance (which you admit was the result of a lack of knowledge) is more of an example of an agenda.


Ok Mr Compton," I'm ready for my close-up."

My original stance was ,and still is that I was not prepared to accept your allegations without proof,you have not provided that proof

.What you have provided is a lot of innuendo with no concrete evidence, accompanying this innuendo are your own personal "interpetations" of events they are also not proof.

Max Hoff and his law suit.

Hoff brought a case against Tunney and Gibson in 1927, for $ 350,000 this subsequently went up to $400,000 he charged that they had entered into a contract with him that in exchange for a $20,000 loan ,Hoff was to receive 20% of all Tunney's future earnings in the event that Tunney won the world's title from Dempsey ,should that not happen the contract would be rendered null and void.

In addition to the 20 % of Tunney's future earnings Hoff required Tunney to install him as equal co- manager with Gibson, whom Tunney was already unhappy with. See below. extract taken from a S I article.

Tunney directed his own career once he had established himself as a professional. "I had a manager named Sammy Kelly," Gene recalled, "but he kept making matches without consulting me. I was still very young and I'd say, 'No, I'm not ready for that fellow.'
"Finally, one day Kelly said, 'Well, who the hell _are_ you ready for?'
"I made out a list of the men I considered suitable opponents at that stage of my career. Kelly was disgusted. He thought I had no heart. So I went with Doc Bagley, because New York State regulations said that a fighter must have a manager. It was monstrous, but it was the law. I stayed with Bagley until after my first fight with Greb. I had taken a frightful beating. Awful. But the next morning Bagley said:
" 'You certainly gave me a hard time last night, kid. Working on those cuts. It was rough.'
"While Bagley talked to me, the doctor was sewing up my eyebrows with a big needle. It felt as if he were pulling my eyeballs out. 'Yes,' I told Bagley, 'you had it rough.' But in my mind I said, 'I'm going to get rid of this fellow.' I bought my contract back for $5,000. He didn't want to sell, but I insisted."
Billy Gibson managed him during the period when Tunney was campaigning for a championship fight with Dempsey. "Gibson was a grand old fellow," Gene said, "but at this time he was a menace to me. I didn't know he was suffering from paresis. He made contracts and concessions that I couldn't possibly honor. Later there were all sorts of lawsuits. It cost me a lot of money." Tim Mara, a onetime New York bookmaker and owner of the New York Giants professional football team, and Max (Boo-Boo) Hoff, a Philadelphia bootlegger, brought suits against Tunney for services they claimed to have rendered-Mara on the grounds that he helped to get Gene his first match with Dempsey, Hoff that he had somehow "protected" Tunney's interests in that fight. Only Mara collected-$30,000 from an out-of-court settlement-but Tunney's legal expenses were heavy."

Tunney had the following managers.
Billy Jacobs 1915-1918,Billy Roche and Sammy Kelly,1919-1920, Doc Bagley 1920-1922 and Billy Gibson,1923-1928. Tunney never formed an attachment to any of them though he did speak well of Gibson, until Gibson's health made him a liability to him.

Many boxers have had several managers , for every Jimmy McLarnin and Pops Foster there are a dozen such as ODLH, who have changed managers/trainers almost as often as gloves

Tunney viewed managers as a legal necessity but largely steered his own course.

Tunney and Gibson had borrowed heavily from promoter Tex Rickard who had decided to close his wallet until some repayment was forth coming, faced with the training expenses of a forthcoming title challenge to Dempsey ,Tunney was between the rock and the hard place, obviously the punitive terms that Hoff demanded were rapacious in the extreme ,Tunney was already giving Gibson 30% of his earnings.

To pay another co- manager and also have him skim 20% of all his future earning would have meant he was effectively fighting for peanuts.

Tunney ostensibly agreed to go a long with Hoff's terms but when it came to signing the contract Tunney wrote Eugene Joseph Tunney instead of James Joseph Tunney which was his real name.Gibson and Hoff . signed their own names.

Hoff's lawsuit came to court in 1930 but he mysteriously dropped it without explanation or remuneration in 1931.

There was speculation that had he pursued it he would have been in grave danger of further blackening an already none to pristine reputation.
Hoff was arraigned many times for various felonies including tax evasion boot legging,[ he was known as the King Of The Bootleggers,] passing counterfeit money etc but seemed to have a charmed life this was considered to be because he avoided putting his name to contracts.

Ironic that when he did so against Tunney he ended up unreservedly withdrawing his case and not seeking any financial redress.

In summary Hoff, who already had the largest stable of fighters in the country tried to tie Tunney to a contract that would have left him with little of his ring earnings but all the risk of the fighting.

Tim Mara and his case.

Mara's law suit against Tunney got into court in 1930.
Mara's position was that he had agreed to assist Tunney in leap-frogging over the recognized number one contender namely Harry Wills and taking his place as the challenger to Champion Jack Dempsey.

Mara was to do this by lobbying NY state boxing commission officials.

In return for this Mara wanted 10% of Tunney's purse for his 
title challenge to Dempsey ,and 25% of all future monies Tunney might acrue throughout his career these were to include , not only title purses , but personal appearance monies and money from films etc.It necessarily follows that if Mara was actively boosting Tunney he would have been doing the reverse for Wills.

Mara stated that Tunney had originally proposed to give him 25% of his title challenge purse as well at 25% of all his future earnings. Mara stated he told Tunney he was satisfied with just 10% of his title challenge purse,what a nice man!

To bolster his claim that Tunney had entered into this agreement Mara produced a letter written by Tunney agreeing to these terms. What Mara could not produce or explain was exactly what services he had rendered to assist Tunney in getting his title shot, when questioned as to his role ,Mara said," I was an advertiser for Gene Tunney", that works out as pretty expensive advertising.
See link below.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...629,3973034&dq=gene+tunney+and+tim+mara&hl=en

Mara's case collapsed when he failed to justify his exorbitant $526,812 and some cents demand on Tunney's finances. Furthermore it was Tunney's position that since Mara had not been abale to deliver a title fight for him in NY ,or indeed anywhere else his obligation to him was then void.

Mara appealed and Tunney settled out of court for the drastically reduced $30,000.

To summarize two venal ,and extremely rich men tried to take advantage of a boxer by signing him into virtual slave contracts, but were outsmarted
the users became the used so to speak..

Tunney was undoubtedly self-centered and determined to make something of himself, having come from humble origins, he rose to become wealthy in his own right he achieved this by self belief, courage, spartan conditioning , single- mindedness ,and determination and he had to take some beatings along the way to get there.

Tunney may not have been possessed of the most attractive of personalities but he had the balls to back himself against the odds.

You state Tunney admitted in court to" all kinds of shameful shinanigins? shennanigins," and that he further admitted he had no intention of fighting Wills whom he agreed to face in a title eliminator.

You produced no proof of this in your reports,in fact the only solid proof you showed was that Tunney once champion declared he would not face Wills or any coloured challenger , saying he did so because Wills had refused to face him , and, when Tunney got the nod for his shot Wills and his manager had done everything in their power to veto the match.

Since Wills would have been a decided underdog against Tunney by late 1926 early 27, having being soundly thrashed by Jack Sharkey , fouling out to save himself the indignity of a ko I doubt he was worried about Wills chances against himself.

This was probably a chance for Tunney to put George Godfrey's more real threat on the back burner. Tunney admitted that he sought to fast- track into a title bout over the shoulders of Harry Wills, given that he had offered to fight Wills previously why should he have not done so? And would not Wills have done the same thing if their roles were reversed?

Joe Louis leap-frogged over Max Schmeling into a title shot with Jim Braddock, does that make him "a slime ball"?

You say Tunney's wins over Jack Herman, and Bartley Madden had questions about them and that there is "no smoke without fire". The commission investigated both fights and found no case to answer in either of them .

The fact that Tunney accomplished what others had failed to do in the Madden fight does not mean it was a fix.

Madden was described as having taked a tremendous right hand followed by a left hook that left him out to the world. Madden had been dropped for 8 in a previous fight by comparatively light hitting Harry Greb.

Tunney could have outboxed Herman in his sleep.

Muhammad Ali dropped and stopped several opponents that harder hitting punchers had failed to do.That does not mean they were not kosher fights. 
Again you provided no proof just innuendo.

You stated that Jack Dempsey refused to spar with Kid Norfolk then produced a news -report that refutes your argument totally, what it actually said was that Jack Kearns invited Norfolk to do so , but that his manager refused unless Norfolk was installed as Dempsey's next title challenger.

The premise that Dempsey avoided the 5'8 light heavy Norfolk in sparring , yet was happy to daily face the huge George Godfrey who hit like a truck is ridiculous.

You did provide proof in this case ,proof that you were wrong. Tunney abandoned the" Old Guard who had helped him". Who were they Mara and Hoff?
Tunney went into boxing to better himself he fought for money, not glory and he neevr made any secret of his disdain for the game. He was a cool calculating boxer who fought with his head not his heart,Tunney had the misfortune of dethroning an idol a natural fighter in contrast to his detached boxing skills. Dempsey after he lost to Tunney was beloved, Tunney never attracted the affection of the crowd and never sought it .

Parallels may be drawn here between him and Ezzard Charles who was perceived as colourless when he outpointed his idol Louis ,and Larry Holmes who followed Ali. They were predated by Jim Corbett vanquishing America's fistic god John L.

You stated that Tunney "leveraged his fame to social climb his way into a marriage with heiress Polly Lauder ". 
Thereby implying that Tunney married her solely for her money, this is a particularly nasty slur ,and an insult to his wife.

It's true that she was wealthy but Tunney was a millionaire himself when he married her. 
Tunney had a two year courtship of his wife who was a beautiful woman and they were married for 50 years right up until his death in 1978, his widow died in 2008 at the age of 100. the unpleasant innuendo that you put on their marriage is uncalled for but par for the course when you are posting.

I repeat I hold no brief for Tunney, he is far from a favourite of mine and no doubt deserves the criticism of him for being a prig ,and a smug, self -absorbed man.

Your contention that he was," a slime-ball " however, ,is as unproven as your other allegations which amount to smoke and mirrors , with no hard evidence to back them up.

Mr Compton ,Gene Tunney may have been far from perfect, but I would venture to say he comes out of this thread a bit better than you do.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...613,1348679&dq=gene+tunney+and+tim+mara&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...5943,698861&dq=gene+tunney+and+tim+mara&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...629,3973034&dq=gene+tunney+and+tim+mara&hl=en


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Klompton said:


> What does Bernard Hopkins have to do with this?


Hint, ...".I'm not going to let this white boy beat me",....


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Cormac said:


> Ok Mr Compton," I'm ready for my close-up."
> 
> My original stance was ,and still is that I was not prepared to accept your allegations without proof,you have not provided that proof
> 
> ...


I dont see where you add anything knew to my posts and frankly you distort some of it: As Ive said before, Billy Gibson didnt force Gene Tunney to do anything. That much is clear. Gene Tunney was actively involved in acquiring the help of Mara and Hoff as illustrated by a signed contract with Hoff and a written letter enlisting Mara's aid. Furthermore Tunney actively sought Gibson as his manager and was more than happy to benefit from and assist in Gibson's backroom deals. In short Tunney was a big boy and if he is going to receive the benefits of dealing in the gutter then he must also assume the criticisms as well.

Ive always found it strange that Tunney criticised Doc Bagley so heavily for his handling of the Greb fight when most outside observers considered Bagley one of the greatest cornermen of the first half of the 20th century. Certainly Tunney didnt buy out his contract until the beginning of the following year and 7 or 8 fights later. In moments of greater candor Tunney admitted that he felt he had gone as far as Bagley could take him and that he needed a manager who was more connected i.e. Gibson, who was considered one of the east coasts most powerful managers. Tunney was guaranteed a rematch with Greb for his former title and was working overtime to ensure a victory at all costs. I wont even get into that here because its every bit as long and dirty as the Dempsey shit he pulled and it would be wasted on you any way. If you want to sit here and feed me a line of garbage that Tunney steered his own course we can stop right here. Its either the height of ignorance or, once again, your willingness to bend facts to match your argument. Which is it? Did Tunney steer his own course or was he bullied and forced into contracts by Gibson?? You cant have it both ways.

The idea that Tunney signed with Hoff because he had borrowed heavily from Rickard and needed a $20,000 loan was Tunney's version of events and wasnt born out by the facts, as was pointed out almost immediately by Dempsey. Tunney was scheduled to be paid $200,000 by Rickard in two days. Why would he need to borrow $20,000 from Hoff? More to the point we now have the original contract, as Ive shown, and nowhere is $20,000 mentioned in that agreement. It was for $1 and other good and valuable considerations for a 20% interest in Tunney, which Tunney signed. Pretty interesting when one considers Tunney signed over what would eventually amount to nearly $500,000 to Hoff for $1 (or even for as little $20,000). You can play naive all you want, and maybe Im giving you more credit than you deserve, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would be stupid enough to believe Tunney approached a gangster and willingly signed over 20% of a future fortune for JUST $1 or even $20,000 (and thats if you accept Tunney's version of events, which as Ive said was proven wrong by the contract).

But again, you keep pretending that Tunney was victimized by these guys and then tell me Tunney steered his own course. In Truth Tunney actively enlisted the help of all three of these men: Gibson, Mara, and Hoff, and signed 75% of himself away to them. SIGNED HIMSELF. Sorry if I dont have any sympathy for the guy who was doing this in order to gain an unfair advantage over his rivals in every sense of the word. If you think thats honorable fine, I guess admire shits like this. I dont.

As far as Wills Tunney is concerned you cant sit there and say "After Wills was thrashed by Sharkey" and then backwards apply that to what went on prior to Tunney facing Dempsey. What dimension do you live in? Talk about justification for robbing a man of his shot at the title. Racist much? The bottom line is that Tunney never once denied any of the allegations testified to on the stand in relation to Wills. Likewise these allegations were illustrated clearly by the timeline of events which showed that one or both were tied up whenever Tunney pretended to call Wills out. Thats just talk as far as Im concerned. If Floyd Mayweather calls out Manny Pacquiao when Pacqiauo is just signed to face someone and Mayweather has secretely just signed to face someone else, is it legit or just for the public's benefit? It doesnt take a genius, or even you to figure that out.

I did in fact say that there were questions about Tunney Madden and Herman. Were there not? I also explained why the commissions investigation was a joke. Can you show me how extensive it was? or even what they could have done about the fight? I didnt think so.

I showed you exactly where Dempsey avoided Norfolk. He would defend his title against one man who Norfolk dominated twice, another who Norfolk kicked the shit out of in sparring and yet another who wouldnt have fought Norfolk in his dreams yet was knocked out by the man Norfolk battered pillar to post when past his prime. I realize you have a thing when it comes to comparing black and white fighters but put the pointy white cap away and admit for a minute that when Kearns refuses Norfolk a title shot, tries to get publicity off Norfolk by stating that he was going to spar with Dempsey, and then closes his camp to norfolk when Norfolk calls Dempsey out on it (AFTER Kearns had already stated they wouldnt guarantee him a shot... context, its all context. You seem to have a problem with timelines here). He avoided sparring with him. It kills me that you guys who love Dempsey as this fearless, force of nature cant see that the guy was guided well throughout his career and avoided the best contenders out there. But hey, thats just me. Hes white so we have to forgive him right?

I didnt show that Tunney abandoned everyone who helped him to the top? Ok. I guess you didnt read my post. Luckily I think most people who did and found it interesting saw it for what it was and see you for what you are.

When did I ever say Tunney didnt love his wife. That was you putting words in my mouth. I said he was a social climber, he was and I dont think anyone would deny it.

Like I said. Tunney was a racist scumbag who would step on anyone to get what he wanted. I think Ive proven that pretty conclusively and I dont think your post really adds anything. It leaves much out, ignores a lot, and twists whats left. Thats typically what happens when the facts dont agree with someone's agenda.

BTW You left out Tunney's first manager Willie Green.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Klompton said:


> I dont see where you add anything knew to my posts and frankly you distort some of it: As Ive said before, Billy Gibson didnt force Gene Tunney to do anything. That much is clear. Gene Tunney was actively involved in acquiring the help of Mara and Hoff as illustrated by a signed contract with Hoff and a written letter enlisting Mara's aid. Furthermore Tunney actively sought Gibson as his manager and was more than happy to benefit from and assist in Gibson's backroom deals. In short Tunney was a big boy and if he is going to receive the benefits of dealing in the gutter then he must also assume the criticisms as well.
> 
> Ive always found it strange that Tunney criticised Doc Bagley so heavily for his handling of the Greb fight when most outside observers considered Bagley one of the greatest cornermen of the first half of the 20th century. Certainly Tunney didnt buy out his contract until the beginning of the following year and 7 or 8 fights later. In moments of greater candor Tunney admitted that he felt he had gone as far as Bagley could take him and that he needed a manager who was more connected i.e. Gibson, who was considered one of the east coasts most powerful managers. Tunney was guaranteed a rematch with Greb for his former title and was working overtime to ensure a victory at all costs. I wont even get into that here because its every bit as long and dirty as the Dempsey shit he pulled and it would be wasted on you any way. If you want to sit here and feed me a line of garbage that Tunney steered his own course we can stop right here. Its either the height of ignorance or, once again, your willingness to bend facts to match your argument. Which is it? Did Tunney steer his own course or was he bullied and forced into contracts by Gibson?? You cant have it both ways.
> 
> ...


 Bottom line you produced no proof ,plenty of personal insults towards me and allegations about Tunney but no proof .You are a pompous, objectionable man who cannot bear to be queried on anything . I could rip into you but that would be to descend to your level . You are very brave sitting at your PC, I'd like you to give you the opportunity to repeat your insults face to face but of course you are safe firing them off from a distance. What a nasty excuse for a human being you are.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Like I said, a waste of time. Tunney himself lays out his racist stance and the fact that he was going after unfair advantages against people, plenty of other testimony which went undisputed and was accepted as fact by everyone at the time (yet you deny) and thats not enough for you. What else would I expect from a guy who didnt know that to begin with, got schooled on it, demanded proof, and then couldnt admit it after the fact who then comes back like the keyboard warrior he is acting like a tough guy. Like I said hotshot, you know my address, otherwise we can leave Tunney's legacy to the court of public opinion, considering the replies to my post here I think I did a fair enough job of illustrating that Tunney was a racist dick who never had any intention of facing Wills, walked over the prostrate bodies of his former friends to get what he wanted, and looked for any advantage he could over his opponents inside or outside the ring. You find those qualities admirable apparently and feel the need to defend him. I dont but I guess that speaks to the difference in our character as well.


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

Could Klompton-Cormac become the new Mendoza-McGrain?


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## johnmaff36 (Aug 3, 2012)

Seamus said:


> Could Klompton-Cormac become the new Mendoza-McGrain?


I dunno, but its a fuckin great debate. Both are equally convincing and articulate


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## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

Fascinating thread.I want to see greb destroy tunney even more


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## he grant (Jun 12, 2013)

Seamus said:


> Could Klompton-Cormac become the new Mendoza-McGrain?


Wasn't it Mendoza-*McVey*? (one of them is already posting on this thread) :hey


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## Seamus (Jun 4, 2013)

he grant said:


> Wasn't it Mendoza-*McVey*? (one of them is already posting on this thread) :hey


\

My bad. I always got those Mc's mixed.


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## Cormac (Jun 6, 2013)

Seamus said:


> \
> 
> My bad. I always got those Mc's mixed.


 McGrain will love that , he likes me about as much as Klompton does..


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