# JG RINGSIDE



## doug.ie

this is a piece written and given to me by our fellow poster john garfield.

he asked for me to post it here for him...

enjoy my pedigree chums.....and thank you JG



.................................................................................



STILLMAN'S GYM: The Center of the Boxing Universe



Stillman's Gym is still magical to ring veterans -- rapidly vanishing -- but it's mostly a revered icon, like Jack Johnson or Boyle's Half-Acre, that ol’ timers have read about in faded issues of Ring Magazine. 

For me, Stillman's isn't like talking about Benny Leonard or Harry Greb, and taking it on faith. It's very real, as vivid now as when my dad first took me on a weekend just after World War 2 and before the return match with Louis and Conn.

Putting it in perspective, only three things mattered to a kid growing up in the Navy Yard section of Brooklyn in the ‘40s: winning a world title; fighting the main-go at The Garden and Stillman's Gym.

Every blue-collar neighborhood in New York was dotted with gyms. Every block had a fighter or a relative of a fighter. It was a sport that was accessible to us. And, sometimes one of our own rose up from the amateurs, got some big wins in local clubs and made it into the Garden, impressed in prelims and watched his name go up in lights as the headliner on the Garden marquee... like Billy Graham and Harold Green.

All we did on Friday nights was elbow each other out of the way to get closer to the radio to listen to the Gillette Cavalcade of Sports to hear the main event from the Garden. And if Rocky Graziano or Joe Louis rallied or won, you could hear the shouts echo in the streets from every open tenement window.

I knew that the big name fighters trained at Stillman's, but never imagined I'd ever get to go there. So, when my dad took me, it was like going to the circus for a kid still running around in corduroy knickers.

Once we were actually sitting in the gallery at Stillman's seeing the greats who were on fight posters tacked-up on every light pole and fence passing only an arm's length away doing floor exercises, warming up and sparring, it was sensory overload. 

And while I tried to drink it in, Sandy Saddler and Paddy DeMarco play-fought with me. Bob Montgomery let me unlace his gloves; Beau Jack feinted punches at me. Most of those around us just wanted a glimpse up close of not only the fighters but anybody well known to tell their friends about.


The galleryites were larger than life: fight-greats, showbiz types glad-handing everybody, reporters talking to fighters and A-listers, ‘n scary-looking guys like the ones that lounged outside the social club around the corner from me.

Willie Pep and Terry Young worked the crowd, breaking everybody up wisecracking about horses that were too slow or women that were too fast... I was hooked -- knew I had to train there some day.

On a frigid winter day in ’48, to follow through on my promise to emulate Graziano ‘n LaMotta, I cut school ‘n took two trains and a bus to Stillman’s. 

Just under the faded sign over the gym doorway were 20 or 30 goombahs milling around a rugged young hopeful.

STILLMAN'S GYM
TRAINING HERE DAILY
BOXING INSTRUCTION see JACK CURLEY
(NO LITTERING ON SIDEWALK)

I had to navigate my way through, past the heavy iron door and up the steep, dimly lit stairs to Stillman’s. 
Stationed in the doorway to collect the 15-cent entrance fee was Jack Curley. He was late 50sh and world weary, with spectacles on the bridge of his nose – always in the gimlet eye of the gym's tyrant-owner, Lou Stillman, so that he could be sure nobody slipped by without paying.

I paid and asked Jack Curley if he could set me up with a trainer. 

After appraising me like pawnbroker, he crooked a finger at a character the image of the Penguin in a Batman comic book. 

“Izzy, see what the kid’s got.”

He musta been mid-40s, 'bout 5-7 – bulging wall-eyes, the drained pallor of a lifetime in airless gyms, and dark kinky-curly hair threatening to uncoil but bulldogged down and parted in the middle like a ‘20s bootlegger. 

His nose was much too long for his face and pointy as a dart. He had no chin, no neck, was shaped like a pear and his stomach hiked up his trousers to his chest. He wore what must have been a white T-shirt at one time and ‘n unbuttoned cardigan sweater with a towel thrown over his shoulder.

Rocking back on his heels, he shuffled over, chest out straight up and flatfooted; his shoes pointing outward like a Garment Center salesman. The only thing missing was the Penguin's umbrella. 

He was my coach for the years I trained at Stillman’s. His name was Izzy Blank, and he looked after me like a son. 

Though Izzy never gained the notoriety of a Charley Goldman, Ray Arcel, ****** Bimstein, and the like, he was respected and embraced by the fraternity and spared -- for the most part -- from Stillman’s wrath 

As good or bad as I ever got, Izzy never allowed me to forget what he thought unpardonable: As a Tony Curtis wannabe, I did what all the other kids did, I carried a condom in my wallet -- not that I had chance to use it-- but it was expected.

One day while changing, the rubber fell out of my wallet onto the floor and Izzy saw it. If I did anything after that that didn't live up to his expectation, he shrugged: "Sure! How can he fight? He's in the saddle!"

I had to do three times what anybody else did. If I so much as took a deep breathe: "The kid's in the saddle!"

Izzy Blank died…still unsung -- a funny, dear man that was my professor at the University of Eighth Ave.

More than one world champion or celebrity was embarrassed at the door because they wanted back in without paying, and were told: “No money, no entrance” "Pay up, ya bum!” Stillman would yell across the gym: 

The ceiling on the main floor was high enough for a trapeze act. There were four rows of wooden folding chairs, with what looked like the cast of Guys and Dolls occupied with scratch sheets or spitting on the floor and biting on cigar stubs.

In front of the chairs were two raised rings, side-by-side, and behind the rings -- against the far wall-- trainers taped-up, gloved and put headgears and cups on their fighters while they sat on a wooden bench waiting to spar. The game’s elite shadowboxed or skipped rope right next to them.

The biggest challenge was not staring.

There wasn't any direction I looked where there wasn't a legend bathed in sweat, large droplets clinging to his face where Aboline Cream had been slathered-on by a trainer. Once, Joe Louis apologized for backing into me while I was hitting a heavy bag. 

Lou Stillman was the overbearing ringmaster, sitting in a raised chair to just under his prized clock given to him by an English promoter. He barked non-stop insults over his loud speaker: "Get the hell out of the ring, you bum! You call yourself a professional?"

Stillman was a sour 60'sh former beat cop, it was said, who took on the job just after World War 1, not knowing anything about the fight business, and was clearly fed up and burned out by the middle 1940s. He was no sitcom character: crusty exterior with a heart of gold... he was all crust.

He was everyplace at the same time yelling insults at the top of his lungs. If he said to black fighters now what he said then, he would’ve had a short life. He shouted every racist epithet imaginable.

Stillman regarded all fighters as scum; treated some trainers less harshly (Charley Goldman and Ray Arcel) and barely tolerated everybody else -- celebrities included -- and ran roughshod over young and old.

He routinely threw fighters and spectators out personally.

Stillman wasn't the least averse to getting in the face of the badest. He did it with a loaded .38 poking out under his tweed jacket, which he wore on the most stifling days. None of the windows had been opened since the gym was converted from a union hall in the ‘30s.

Even though Stillman yelled at Graziano and called him a bum, too, my sense was, he had a soft spot for him and Willie Pep, though he worked hard not to show it.

Stillman had a pecking order: The good fighters got to spar in ring 1; everybody else was relegated to spar or shadow box in ring 2. Sugar Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Graziano, Billy Graham, Beau Jack, Ike Williams, Kid Gavilan, Bo Bo Olson, Bob Montgomery and Marcel Cerdan, always worked in ring 1

To the left of Stillman -- about thirty feet -- underneath the stairs leading to the second tier of the loft, where the heavy bags and speed bags were was a patched-over wooden door coming loose at the hinges that led to the locker room, which consisted of plywood-separated cubicles with massage tables for the main-event fighters -- or those few that could afford it.

Narrow dented green metal lockers lined the opposite wall for everybody else. A long low wooden bench for changing extended to the end of the lockers. The light was diffused through a window opaque with 30 years of grime.


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## doug.ie

The shower for the entire gym was a single open stall with a concrete floor and drain and a rusted-solid showerhead. Wet towels littered the floor. One day the police burst in and slammed a journeyman light heavyweight I was talking to against the wall and cuffed him and dragged him out in a towel. He was wanted for murder.

Upstairs in the heavy-bag area, you could watch Jimmy Bivins, Johnny Bratton, Jimmy Carter, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ike Williams, Bob Murphy, Rocky Graziano and Bob Montgomery all whacking the big bags, doing floor exercises, or studying their moves in the wall-length mirror next to under card fighters and promising amateurs.

Whenever Sugar Ray Robinson skipped rope or hit the speed bag, everybody stopped what they were doing, cleared the floor and crowded around. He glided with the grace of Fred Astaire. His combinations, dazzling. 

Wherever Robinson was in the gym, he was a prince holding court; right up until departure with his entourage in his fuchsia Cadillac convertible which sat in front of the gym in the NO PARKING area.

Learning how to feint from Willie Pep, how to lengthen my jab from Billy Conn; how to draw a right hand, roll with it and come back over the top from Johnny Bratton, and countless words of encouragement from Joe Louis, Tony Janiro, Bo Bo Olson and Gil Turner are treasured memories.

In the early ‘50s, Bobby Bartles, a stylish, stand-up boxer-puncher trained there. He was starting to get noticed, piling up wins in clubs all over New York.
Bartles was movie star handsome -- a Cary Grant. He looked like he'd be more at home at a yacht club than Stillman's...’till he spoke. No mistaking the mean streets of Queens.

One day after winning a main-go, Bartles raged into the gym: "Read this!" he shouted, shaking the sports page. When he was asked why he was so angry, Bartles read aloud: "Last night, Anglo-Saxon looking welterweight Bobby Bartles scored his biggest victory...." Pausing, Bartles shouted: "Who the fuck is Angelo Saxon? I'll break his ass!"

Everybody smoked and spit on the floor, including the fighters when they took a break. Graziano would take a drag on a cigarette between rounds of sparring. The main floor was a haze of cigarette and cigar smoke.

Everyplace you looked, you'd see corner men like Charley Goldman, with a cigar stub in the corner of his mouth, tending to a fighter. Goldman was a pixie, bandy-legged, not much more than five feet, with a nose dented by of hundreds of fights. He always wore a derby at a jaunty angle and looked and spoke like a character right out of Damon Runyon. 

The most experienced boxing trainers, and keenest minds in the sport ministered to every fighter in the gym. It was an extended family: when one trainer couldn't cover a guy's fight or training, another stepped right in. There were days when I got advice from Charley Goldman, ****** Bimsten, Jimmy August, Chickie Ferrara, Al Silvani, Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown. Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee just assisted at that time.

As legendary as those trainers were, they weren't spared Stillman's venom, but they were the only ones allowed to answer the bank of phones just to the right of the front door. Over the gym din was the ubiquitous "Telephone for ****** Bimstein!"

Bimstein was a bald pink Kewpie-doll, always with a trace of a smile, but fierce ‘n no-nonsense in the corner.

Over the years, a variety of stories went around about Stillman: He'd been a cop who'd been wounded several times in a shootout. The more probable version was that Stillman (his real name was Ingber) had been a trolley conductor who was an acquaintance of Marshall Stillman, a wealthy philanthropist after World War 1, and Stillman hired him to run a gym to keep kids off the street.

Originally, in 1919, it was called Marshall Stillman's Movement, and it was located up in Harlem on 125th St. and Seventh Ave.

The premier fight gym in New York at the time was Billy Grupp's on 116th St. But after a drunken, anti-Semitic tirade by Grupp, blaming the Jews for World War 1, Benny Leonard and a contingent of Jewish fighters stormed out of Grupp's gym to look for another place to train.

Leonard tried Stillman's storefront, even though it wasn't intended for professionals, and it had little equipment, but Leonard and the others decided it suited them. Ingber (who over time became known as "Stillman") knew nothing about boxing, but he was quick to realize a good thing and charged the public to watch Leonard and the others train.

When Stillman had outgrown the space in the early ‘30s, he borrowed money and bought the property downtown at 919 West 54th St. and re-named it Stillman's Gym. From the time he bought it, Stillman never cleaned it or invested a nickel in its upkeep.

The number one fight venue in the world, from the early ‘20s through the ‘60s, was the version of Madison Square Garden that was on 52nd St. and 8th Ave., two short blocks from Stillman's.

Anybody fighting at The Garden trained at Stillman's. Anybody who wanted to watch the premier fighters in the world train came up to Stillman's. When the best fighters weren't fighting or training, they still came to Stillman's to be among their friends. And when they left the gym, they all went to the Neutral Corner for drinks. It was a few doors from the gym, and THE fight-crowd hangout. Tony Janiro was the bartender.

Over the years, I'd see Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis, Buddy Hackett and Tony Bennett kibitzing ringside, watching sparring during their breaks between shows at The Paramount and The Roxy. And, at least two actors that I can remember soaked up as much of the atmosphere as they could: Marlon Brando for ON THE WATERFRONT, and Paul Newman for SOMEBODY UP THERE LIKES ME.

I'm convinced the single event that expedited Stillman to sell the gym-- more than the economics - was Tommy "Hurricane" Jackson.

He out-eccentriced any living human. It wasn't that he went out of his way to compete with Lou Jenkins motorcycling up the stairs to the gym, or Mickey Walker and Fritzie Zivic’s barhopping; Jackson defined ADD 40 years before the malady existed.

He puzzled everybody from his first appearance in the early ’50s. He was a 6-3 smooth-muscled heavyweight from Far Rockaway, New York. His constant bemused look and the maniacal light in his eyes said there was nobody home.

He was a curiosity in a professional fight gym housing world champions. 

Not only wasn't he equipped to be a fighter; it was questionable if he could get all his limbs to obey. His imitation of prizefighting and training had everybody shaking their heads, and Stillman muttering aloud: "Disgraceful..."

When he sparred -- if you could call it that - Jackson just out-annoyed spar mates, yet he kept winning fights, until he graduated to main events, and -- unbelievably-- got ranked in the top 10.

He wasn't courageous in the way you would normally understand it, where a fighter would take tremendous punishment and summon something from within to storm back. Jackson couldn't get out of the way of punches and seemed never to feel pain; he soaked-it-up and kept flailing and swatting... He was like some terrible toy you couldn't shut off no matter how many times you slammed it against the wall.

Watching Jackson in boxing gloves was like listening to Roseanne Barr sing The Star Spangled Banner.

His only response to any question was: "Wanna shoot rats?"

Summing it all up, there've been great fighters and trainers from gyms all over the country, but never in the sport's history have there been so many greats all in one place at one time. In the golden age of boxing, Stillman's produced more world-class fighters then any other gym ever had. 

Now there's not even a marker to its existence. An apartment house sits on the spot. But 60 years ago, it was the center of the boxing universe.


.


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## Longcount

you should promote this to an article!


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## doug.ie

JG has requested, for his own reasons, that we don't do that


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## Flea Man

It's just sublime. So well written. I'm not the only one who would gladly listen to JG talk all day, week, month and year about his life as a fan, and experiencing the game from the inside during boxings golden era.

I read the whole thing with a massive smile on my face from start to finish. Superb!

From my perspective I just want as many people to read this as we can find!!!! Has it been published before @john garfield ?


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## doug.ie

amazing isn't it flea....and we are only reading it..he has the memory / experience of it...wow.


"the drained pallor of a lifetime in airless gyms, and dark kinky-curly hair threatening to uncoil but bulldogged down and parted in the middle like a ‘20s bootlegger."

thats just class....i love it JG


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## doug.ie

i'm only reading this properly now as i was at work when i posted it and couldnt give it full attention...


"One day after winning a main-go, Bartles raged into the gym: "Read this!" he shouted, shaking the sports page. When he was asked why he was so angry, Bartles read aloud: "Last night, Anglo-Saxon looking welterweight Bobby Bartles scored his biggest victory...." Pausing, Bartles shouted: "Who the fuck is Angelo Saxon? I'll break his ass!"

this is gold.


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## Flea Man

I like _He out-eccentriced any living human. It wasn't that he went out of his way to compete with Lou Jenkins motorcycling up the stairs to the gym_

I knew Jenkins was a wild man, but puh-leeze :lol: And with _his_ power? What a machine


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## Boogle McDougal

Great stuff as always, JG. I feel like I've read all your stories - no offense intended, they're worth reading over. I've read some of this before, but it seems you've added to it. You warming up for your memoir? Always a pleasure to jog your memory. You have no idea how it is to read these stories, to be a quick train ride away from where most of them took place, only to be half a century too late.


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## McKay

:clap: Fantastic John!


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## john garfield

McKay said:


> :clap: Fantastic John!


May frame your emoticon, M


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## john garfield

Boggle said:


> *Great stuff as always,* JG. I feel like I've read all your stories - no offense intended, they're worth reading over. I've read some of this before, but it seems you've added to it. You warming up for your memoir? Always a pleasure to jog your memory. You have no idea how it is to read these stories, to be a quick train ride away from where most of them took place, only to be half a century too late.


Especially meaningful coming from you, B. You have the voice, craft 'n chops to be a HELLUVA writer.


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## McKay

john garfield said:


> May frame your emoticon, M


:lol: It would be an honour mate! Honestly, that type of stuff is invaluable to the forums, there's guys here who have an amazing knowledge of the history of the sport, but to have someone who saw it happen with his own eyes is just that bit better.


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## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> It's just sublime. So well written. I'm not the only one who would gladly listen to JG talk all day, week, month and year about his life as a fan, and experiencing the game from the inside during boxings golden era.
> 
> I read the whole thing with a massive smile on my face from start to finish. Superb!
> 
> From my perspective I just want as many people to read this as we can find!!!! Has it been published before @john garfield ?


Rarely hear the word "sublime" in my house, FM. It's usually: "TAKE OUT THE FU--IN' GARBAGE!"


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## john garfield

McKay said:


> :lol: It would be an honour mate! Honestly, that type of stuff is invaluable to the forums, there's guys here who have an amazing knowledge of the history of the sport, *but to have someone who saw it happen with his own eyes* is just that bit better.


I tried using someone else's eyes, but it didn't work, Mc


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## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> amazing isn't it flea....and we are only reading it..he has the memory / experience of it...wow.
> 
> "the drained pallor of a lifetime in airless gyms, and dark kinky-curly hair threatening to uncoil but bulldogged down and parted in the middle like a '20s bootlegger."
> 
> *thats just class*....i love it JG


That's me, d, I got class up the ying yang


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## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> It's just sublime. So well written. I'm not the only one who would gladly listen to JG talk all day, week, month and year about his life as a fan, and experiencing the game from the inside during boxings golden era.
> 
> I read the whole thing with a massive smile on my face from start to finish. Superb!
> 
> From my perspective *I just want as many people to read this as we can find*!!!! Has it been published before @john garfield ?


I'll hand deliver it, if that's what it takes, FM


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## Michael

Great read here John, I liked your description of Tommy Jackson especially:good

Reading memoirs of the good old days of boxing fills me with a bit of sadness though, in knowing that boxing is not longer a mainstream sport, it doesn't have the following it did back in the day, and that far fewer major gyms and trainers are operating at the moment in comparison to 60 years ago.


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## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Great read here John, I liked your description of Tommy Jackson especially:good
> 
> Reading memoirs of the good old days of boxing fills me wit a bit of sadness though, in knowing that boxing is not longer a mainstream sport, it doesn't have the following it did back in the day, and that far fewer major gyms and trainers are operating at the moment in comparison to 60 years ago.


We need guys like you ta carry the torch, S

If Tommy Jackson met you, he'd say, "Ya wanna shoot rats?"


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## doug.ie

john garfield said:


> If Tommy Jackson met you, he'd say, "Ya wanna shoot rats?"


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## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> i'm only reading this properly now as i was at work when i posted it and couldnt give it full attention...
> 
> "One day after winning a main-go, Bartles raged into the gym: "Read this!" he shouted, shaking the sports page. When he was asked why he was so angry, Bartles read aloud: "Last night, Anglo-Saxon looking welterweight Bobby Bartles scored his biggest victory...." Pausing, Bartles shouted: "Who the fuck is Angelo Saxon? I'll break his ass!"
> Gotti respected
> 
> this is gold.


Bartles leading-man looks were deceiving. He was the genuine-article hard guy. Worked as a bouncer when he hung'em up. Always said it straight -- bluntly 'n directly. He was onea the few John Gotti respected


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## NoMas

I cant tell you how much I enjoyed reading that story... Thanks for sharing!

_'And while I tried to drink it in, Sandy Saddler and Paddy DeMarco play-fought with me. Bob Montgomery let me unlace his gloves; Beau Jack feinted punches at me. Most of those around us just wanted a glimpse up close of not only the fighters but anybody well known to tell their friends about.'
_
_'Once, Joe Louis apologized for backing into me while I was hitting a heavy bag. '
_
_'Learning how to feint from Willie Pep, how to lengthen my jab from Billy Conn; how to draw a right hand, roll with it and come back over the top from Johnny Bratton, and countless words of encouragement from Joe Louis, Tony Janiro, Bo Bo Olson and Gil Turner are treasured memories.'
_

Wow, that is incredible, I think I would of just frozen up and starred at them like A weird stalker haha That truly is A dream come true...

_'He was like some terrible toy you couldn't shut off no matter how many times you slammed it against the wall.'
_

hahahahaaha


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## john garfield

NoMas said:


> I cant tell you how much I enjoyed reading that story... Thanks for sharing!
> 
> _'And while I tried to drink it in, Sandy Saddler and Paddy DeMarco play-fought with me. Bob Montgomery let me unlace his gloves; Beau Jack feinted punches at me. Most of those around us just wanted a glimpse up close of not only the fighters but anybody well known to tell their friends about.'
> _
> _'Once, Joe Louis apologized for backing into me while I was hitting a heavy bag. '
> _
> _'Learning how to feint from Willie Pep, how to lengthen my jab from Billy Conn; how to draw a right hand, roll with it and come back over the top from Johnny Bratton, and countless words of encouragement from Joe Louis, Tony Janiro, Bo Bo Olson and Gil Turner are treasured memories.'
> _
> 
> Wow, that is incredible, I think I would of just frozen up and starred at them like A weird stalker haha That truly is A dream come true...
> 
> _'He was like some terrible toy you couldn't shut off no matter how many times you slammed it against the wall.'
> 
> _
> 
> hahahahaaha


Glad you enjoyed, NM. Spread the word. Boxing needs new blood to put it back on the front page


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## NoMas

john garfield said:


> Glad you enjoyed, NM. Spread the word. Boxing needs new blood to put it back on the front page


i will brother, i know few people who will really enjoy this piece... im brainwashing my youngest nephew whos just turned 8yrs into boxing at the moment haha just like my oldman did to me when i was young, im taking him down to my boxing club once a week and hes loving it


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## doug.ie

i'm pushing for JG to make this a regular series for us, the appreciative audience, here


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## john garfield

*JG RINGSIDE mission statement*



doug.ie said:


> i'm pushing for JG to make this a regular series for us, the appreciative audience, here


All logged-in 'n rarin' ta go, d

This section will be a collage of reflections -- some long, some short, some poignant, some funny, with the intent of firing-up 
new fans 'n golden agers.

So, grab your buds by the scruff of the neck.

Keep the feedback comin'


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## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> Especially meaningful coming from you, B. You have the voice, craft 'n chops to be a HELLUVA writer.


Thanks! Looking forward to seeing this thread develop.


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## john garfield

*WALTER CARTIER BEAT BEFORE THE FIRST ROUND*

Hearing Joey Giardello died saddened me. One more link to my youth was gone. Tried to affect the same tousled pompadour. That's as close as I ever got to lookin' like him in the ring.

For a street tough-guy - where you'd just expect Graziano bunker busters -- the man could box - cut'ya ta ribbons, and had Billy Conn's legs.

Thought ya might get a kick out of a behind-the-scenes moment:

Joey G was gonna fight Walter Cartier, a tough NY middleweight, in the main-go at the old Garden.

I was in the dressing room with a buddy fightin' on the under card.

Walter was a very intense guy -- strapping shoulders and chest -- an orthodox, stand-up boxer/puncher with a solid right hand 'n a string of impressive knockouts. He trained religiously under the watchful eye of his twin brother 'n chief cheerleader at Stillman's Gym and believed he could beat Joey and be vaulted into the title picture.

Walter was getting' his game face on. In deference to his big shot, the other fighters kept it quiet. All of a sudden -- CRASH! The locker room door burst open. It was Giardello in an outrageously expensive camel's hair coat tied at the waist -- cigar in his yap --
at the head of an army of goombahs.

He strode to Cartier, who's mouth was agape, and slapped him on the back: "Hi ya doin', Walter?"

The blood drained from Cartier's face. The TKO in the first round was a formality; Walter lost it in the dressing room


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## doug.ie

wow JG...imagine having memories like that...all folklore to us....superb as usual.

just to compliment that...here is that fight..


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## doug.ie

i'm a little reluctant to post this, as i don't want to be adding big long posts to your thread JG, but you speaking of cartier got me thinking about this.

myself and 'er indoors went to new york a couple of years back and we went to a history museum (http://www.mcny.org/ - place was like an alladin's cave for me) which had some great photographs on display of walter cartier...which featured graziano too..

the photos {and video} were taken by stanley kubrick, but i didnt know much more about them...i had read cartiers name before and seen his name pop up but ashamedly didn't know a lot about him.

the pics below are crap, just ones i took with my phone, which was crap at the time, so you cant see any detail..
afterwards i found the video below on youtube.




























i know cartier appeared in 'somebody up there likes me' and was also in the 'bilko' comedy series.

as he was closing in on a title shot...but, to my knowledge, i dont think he ever got a title shot.....that right JG ??










this was the stanley kubrick video....which is a really good watch...was a good thing to find on youtube when i got home...




















this was cartier coming off a long winning streak...he was leading kid gavilan on points going into round 10...but then...


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## doug.ie

sorry if i posted too much there JG


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## NoMas

Great story JG, looking forward to the next installment!


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## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> sorry if i posted too much there JG


On the contrary, d. KILLER pix 'n vid. Makes Walter flesh 'n blood, not just a stat on G's record.


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## john garfield

Just gettin' warmed up, NM


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## doug.ie

see that gardiallo v cartier fight....3 knockdown rule.....but no 3 knockdown rule in say, archie moore v vyonne durelle.........which fights did, and which didnt have that rule ??


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## john garfield

*ACTOR WITH NO CLUE TESTS LAMOTTA*

RAGING BULL doesn't begin to hint at how volcanic LaMotta's rages were. Anything would set him off. Any time. Any place.

He was murder goin' someplace to happen. The worst bad guys wanted no part of him.

But when Jake hung-'em-up he went into show biz -- had to keep a tight rein on his temper. He was tested daily.

This should illustrate:

He got work in films as a character heavy -- took it seriously, wanted to be as good an actor as he was a fighter. He enrolled in John Cassevettes' Theatre Workshop in New York, and did scenes to perfect his craft.

One day I went to watch him. He was on the stage doing some Tennessee Williams' monologue. It was curious listening to the poetry of those words comin' outta Jake's mouth-- half cement truck -- all Bronx.

While he was walkin' the stage reciting his lines, a reed-thin young actor who had no idea who Jake was, bounded on stage: "Your rehearsal time is over! It's my time now! Get off the stage!"

Jake said softly, "I'll just be a minute"

The kid -- Actor's-Studio intense -- stepped closer to Jake: "No. Now! Get off!"

Jake said, "But... 'n the kid SLAPPED Jake LaMotta in the face. " NOW!"

Jake just looked at him, like a Great White Shark poised over chum... and said ever so gently, "Don't do that," and walked off the stage.

That actor had no idea how abruptly his career almost ended.


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> RAGING BULL doesn't begin to hint at how volcanic LaMotta's rages were. Anything would set him off. Any time. Any place.
> 
> He was murder goin' someplace to happen. The worst bad guys wanted no part of him.
> 
> But when Jake hung-'em-up he went into show biz -- had to keep a tight rein on his temper. He was tested daily.
> 
> This should illustrate:
> 
> He got work in films as a character heavy -- took it seriously, wanted to be as good an actor as he was a fighter. He enrolled in John Cassevettes' Theatre Workshop in New York, and did scenes to perfect his craft.
> 
> One day I went to watch him. He was on the stage doing some Tennessee Williams' monologue. It was curious listening to the poetry of those words comin' outta Jake's mouth-- half cement truck -- all Bronx.
> 
> While he was walkin' the stage reciting his lines, a reed-thin young actor who had no idea who Jake was, bounded on stage: "Your rehearsal time is over! It's my time now! Get off the stage!"
> 
> Jake said softly, "I'll just be a minute"
> 
> The kid -- Actor's-Studio intense -- stepped closer to Jake: "No. Now! Get off!"
> 
> *Jake said, "But... 'n the kid SLAPPED Jake LaMotta in the face. " NOW!"
> *
> Jake just looked at him, like a Great White Shark poised over chum... and said ever so gently, "Don't do that," and walked off the stage.
> 
> That actor had no idea how abruptly his career almost ended.


:yikes

man surprised jake didnt have a word with him and put the frightens on him, he even looked a menacing figure, flat nose and all lol


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> :yikes
> 
> man surprised jake didnt have a word with him and put the frightens on him, he even looked a menacing figure, flat nose and all lol


Thought Jake was gonna break a blood vessel restraining himself, NM


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> :yikes
> 
> man surprised jake didnt have a word with him and put the frightens on him, he even looked a menacing figure, flat nose and all lol


Saw Jake turn wiseguys ta jelly with just a look in the street, NM


----------



## doug.ie

did lamotta and graziano spar JG ??


----------



## john garfield

Do I have ta give away free joke books, free dishes 'n show a cartoon?


----------



## doug.ie

you're doing great JG


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> *did lamotta and graziano spar* JG ??


Only _verbally_, to the delight of gym rats at Stillmans, doug


----------



## doug.ie

how was his brother joey as a pro in your opinion JG ?


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> how was his brother joey as a pro in your opinion JG ?


Joey was tough, d, the way Cotto's brother is but, also like Cotto's brother, not good enough to make it as big as Jake.


----------



## john garfield

*RABID LAMOTTA FAN DEMONSTRATES JAKE'S PUNCHING STYLE*

Here's another LaMotta story ta chew on:

I was in PJ Clarke's, a pub on the Eastside of New York for the sports crowd. LaMotta could be found at the bar daily with his long-time friend Pete, who co-wrote RAGING BULL.

Jake was relaxing with his back against the bar -- trademark stogie in his mouth. A sweaty little guy in an ill-fitting suit came through the front door, spotted Jake 'n made a b-line for him.

The little guy planted himself right in front of LaMotta, regaling him -- and all in the bar -- with how he saw Jake KO some guy in New Orleans, demonstrating by wind-milling punches furiously ...much too close to LaMotta's face.

LaMotta didn't move a muscle or change expression. The guy's swings were an eyelash away.

Sure enough, one landed flush on the cigar -- flattened it against LaMotta's face, like Wile E. Coyote.

After a long pause, he looked heavenward: "Why me?"


----------



## Meast

Good idea making a thread with most of JG's stories in once place


----------



## john garfield

Meast said:


> Good idea making a thread with most of JG's stories in once place


Good ta hear from Yorkshire, Meast. Spread the word


----------



## NoMas

i bet the guys face dropped when he ko'd the cigar haha

hey jg, you ever visit toots shore? you got any old pics?


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> i bet the guys face dropped when he ko'd the cigar haha
> 
> hey jg, you ever visit toots shore? you got any old pics?


Went ta Toots Shore's many times, NM, but no pics. It was the watering hole mostly for athletes, the media and ex-jock CEOs who wanted ta rub shoulders. The food was so-so for the stiff price. Toots was the draw, a bear of a man (who did his own bouncing) who kept the drinks flowin' 'n the party goin'.


----------



## Lunny

john garfield said:


> RAGING BULL doesn't begin to hint at how volcanic LaMotta's rages were. Anything would set him off. Any time. Any place.
> 
> He was murder goin' someplace to happen. The worst bad guys wanted no part of him.
> 
> But when Jake hung-'em-up he went into show biz -- had to keep a tight rein on his temper. He was tested daily.
> 
> This should illustrate:
> 
> He got work in films as a character heavy -- took it seriously, wanted to be as good an actor as he was a fighter. He enrolled in John Cassevettes' Theatre Workshop in New York, and did scenes to perfect his craft.
> 
> One day I went to watch him. He was on the stage doing some Tennessee Williams' monologue. It was curious listening to the poetry of those words comin' outta Jake's mouth-- half cement truck -- all Bronx.
> 
> While he was walkin' the stage reciting his lines, a reed-thin young actor who had no idea who Jake was, bounded on stage: "Your rehearsal time is over! It's my time now! Get off the stage!"
> 
> Jake said softly, "I'll just be a minute"
> 
> The kid -- Actor's-Studio intense -- stepped closer to Jake: "No. Now! Get off!"
> 
> Jake said, "But... 'n the kid SLAPPED Jake LaMotta in the face. " NOW!"
> 
> Jake just looked at him, like a Great White Shark poised over chum... and said ever so gently, "Don't do that," and walked off the stage.
> 
> That actor had no idea how abruptly his career almost ended.


This has to be the luckiest guy alive! He basically got away with pulling a lion's tail.


----------



## doug.ie

i'm hoping rockysplitnose posts a bit here....he spent a whole evening in a bar in england with lamotta and his half-his-age blonde bird last year...he talked away all night to him...it would be good if he told of the night here


----------



## john garfield

Lunny said:


> *This has to be the luckiest guy alive! He basically got away with pulling a lion's tail*.


He was a very talented actor, who was in Kazan's AMERICA AMERICA 'n played Charlie Chaplin in a movie 'bout a murder on William Randolph Hearst's yacht. Died of AIDS as a young man.


----------



## AlFrancis

Great memories JG and beautifully written, I didn't want it to finish. I could feel the atmosphere of the gym, almost smell it.


----------



## Vano-irons

This is single handedly the best thing I've ever read regarding a boxing gym. In fact, this may be the single best article I've ever read on boxing as a whole. So well written, so informative, so gripping. Just brilliant! I just wish I had those memories.

Phenomenal piece, thanks for sharing @john garfield


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Great read here John, I liked your description of Tommy Jackson especially:good
> 
> Reading memoirs of the good old days of boxing fills me with a bit of sadness though, in knowing that boxing is not longer a mainstream sport, it doesn't have the following it did back in the day, and that *far fewer major gyms and trainers are operating at the moment in comparison to 60 years ago*.


Sinceya posted that about trainers, S, gonna put up a piece ya might appreciate.


----------



## john garfield

*PROUD TRAINER*

Ya go to the gym, ya get to know the fighters 'n trainers.

One trainer in particular, a flinty former Eastern Bloc Olympian, impressed me. Never ingratiated himself with anyone. Even when handed glowing write-ups in the morning about one of his boxers, he brushed them aside with a tight smile, barely nodding to the other trainers and went about his business.

He had Tony Zale's cheekbones, a military brush-cut, Charles Bronson's squint, steel in his spine and fixed disappointment on his face.

He knew his stuff - no towel carrier -- a tyrant as conditioner. Brooked no nonsense. "Discipline! Discipline! Discipline!" he pounded home in Russian, Armenian, Bulgarian and Cyrillic-cadenced English, working tirelessly on balance, mechanics, correcting mistakes and demonstrating with the precision of a watchmaker how to exploit weaknesses, re-running sparring videos.

He even earned the trust of the thug/wunderkinds by gloving-up, showing how easily they could be picked apart. Maybe twenty pounds heavier then when he competed as a middleweight, but not hard to imagine how accomplished he was in his youth.

When there was any hoopla in the gym&#8230;say, a press conference with two big-name fighters -- promoters, publicists, reporters and photographers hogging every inch of space, yelling for attention, he ignored it -- kept his charges focused, grunting only "Whatever you having," when a trainer passed him a deli menu for lunch.

We had long talks about boxing greats and tactics. He had razor sharp observations -- knew the game inside out.

Like most trainers, to scrape by -- aside from his own boxers -- he worked corners in the gym, did pads, and seconded main-eventers and prelim kids on cards all over California and Vegas at a moment's notice.

So, when I received an email from a film producer asking me to play a cornerman in a TV promo for the Tyson-Etienne fight for a healthy payday, I told him a conflict prevented me, but I had just the guy. I'd pose it to him.

Handing the trainer the offer at the gym, I was bursting for his reaction, repeating over and over how perfect he'd be for it, how good the money was, pointing to the paragraph.

He studied it carefully -- pored over every word, then looked up, shook his head, returned the offer and smiled that same tight smile: "It's not for me," and went back to working with a fighter on the heavy bag.

Puzzled, didn't begin to cover it: The money was fantastic, the hours were good, he wouldn't have to say anything, do only what he did normally, and it was being shot on a stage just blocks from the gym. It didn't add up. Fight jobs weren't falling out of trees...and they weren't asking him to wear a ski mask and carry a gun, so, why not? A gig was gig.

I kept turning it over in my head driving home: Why would he say no? He needed the money. What possible reason could he have? Then it dawned on me&#8230;sadly: the shunting aside of favorable write-ups, never looking at a menu, not a flicker at the money in the offer, this proud man couldn't read.


----------



## DrMo

This thread is gold, many thanks JG.

I also love the story about Duran & the Cuevas fan :lol: 

Did you ever bump into (not literally) Marciano Mr Garfield?


----------



## Swarmer

john garfield :bow:


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> This thread is gold, many thanks JG.
> 
> I also love the story about Duran & the Cuevas fan :lol:
> 
> Did you ever bump into (not literally) Marciano Mr Garfield?


Watched Rocky train at Kutchers and Grossingers in the Catskill Mountains and all his N.Y. bouts, DM


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> This thread is gold, many thanks JG.
> 
> *I also love the story about Duran & the Cuevas fan *:lol:
> 
> Did you ever bump into (not literally) Marciano Mr Garfield?


Gladya enjoyed, DM. Will post more Duran stories.


----------



## doug.ie

again....this is gold


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> again....this is gold


Your classic pix ain't so bad either,doug


----------



## john garfield

*JOHN NITTOLO: STREET TOUGH TO CEO*

In the early '70s in New York, I watched a stocky young welterweight in the Novice finals of the Golden Gloves in the Felt Forum at Madison Square Garden. His name was John Nittolo. With his thick spiky hair and a head that promised a much bigger body, he put me in mind of a lion cub that hadn't grown into his paws.

All Nittolo wanted to do was crack with his overhand right that he threw from the floor. He had no style -- street fighter that wanted to follow punches with kicks.

He fought with fire. He excited the fans the way Graziano did, but was in no condition and running out of steam.

His opponent was a trained boxer, in good shape, and landed enough to earn a decision, even though John shook him every time he got home with that right.

After the decision was announced, Nittolo leaped into the middle of his boys who rushed the ring. They carried him on their shoulders to the dressing room.

As the Forum emptied, I spotted Nittolo smoking in an old sweatshirt and jeans on the main floor and approached. I told him he could be a helluva pro and I wanted to train him, and if he was interested to look me up any afternoon at the Gramercy Gym.

As we spoke, I could see he was 16 goin' on 40, with a voice that sounded like Jake LaMotta. He looked at me sideways, trying to figure my angle. His words came like shoves before the right hand.

A couple days later, he showed up at the gym in the same sweatshirt and jeans, but he was still leery and ready to lash out. All he got from our talk was: "helluva pro" = money.

After seeing me work with some fighters and checking me out, he agreed to give it a try, with little enthusiasm.

For several months, I worked him very hard in the gym; and I was sure, from the look in his eye, there were more than a few times he wanted to clock me with that right. The only thing that kept him in the gym...and me from being drilled was: He started learning moves... and liked it.

But, he was a major pain in the ass -- nothin' but attitude. Everybody wanted him out of the gym. They were convinced I was wasting my time: he was a thug, had no future but jail.

He couldn't control his temper. Wouldn't listen to anybody but me...barely. Only wanted to do things his way. And most of the time he didn't wanna do anything, if I didn't push. He was more interested in crap games, the over-and-under, the horses, and selling sweaters out of the trunk of his car.

I took him to a bunch of smokers all over the city. He was greener than most of the competition, but when he landed that right, he hurt people, stopped them, or knocked them out. The refs had a tough time tearing him away from anyone he hurt.

Once, I took him to a smoker at a church in Brooklyn. He was matched with a kid from the parish named Duffy who'd already won the Gloves and had a big reputation citywide. The entire neighborhood came to cheer him.

Nittolo couldn't wait to knock him out so he could party. His attention span was shorter than his temper.

Duffy was a classic standup boxer, with all the practiced moves of hours and hours in the gym. So he landed jab after jab. Nittolo walked through them, stalking and winging that right. Whenever he landed, Duffy did a Zab Judah dance. The priest awarded the decision to Duffy, who was out on his feet at the final bell.

In the locker room, while I was removing Nittolo's wraps, a Duffy supporter, gloating, came over talking trash. BOOM! John flashed the right, leaving him in a heap.

We grabbed our stuff as quickly as we could and tried to get to the car. Outside, we were greeted by an army of Duffy fans barely held in check by Security -- screaming for Nittolo's blood. John challenged the mob, giving them the finger. How we got out of there... I'll never know.

John sparred with some top pros, and was beginning to lose some of the rough edges, and use angles. But his mind was always into hustling: how to turn a buck.

He didn't have patience to learn how to fight. He just wanted to knock people out and make money now...and it wasn't happening fast enough for him. Nothing did.

So, he drifted away from the gym. When I'd speak to him, I encouraged him to go to a gambling school to become a dealer in a casino. He did...and took to it like a duck to water.

When he graduated, he went to Vegas and got a job as a dealer. Eventually, became a pit boss.

But John lived on "Action"... he loved the "Juice;" the bigger the gamble the better. So, he started promoting fights and rock concerts in Vegas and Atlantic City. He added touring shows, like WEST SIDE STORY.

Numbers were John's thing. Nobody short-changed him. Unions didn't pad crews...if they tried, he spoke to 'em in a language they understood -- needed no lawyers.

In the last 20 years, John's become one of the leading concert promoters in the country. And he still wants more.

He's now in his early 50s... still has the same swagger he had as a kid but now he's dressed in Hugo Boss and weighs over 200.

He still has the killer instinct and no patience, but he does his fighting in boardrooms.

He's a lion that's grown into his paws.


----------



## dkos

I've just spent the last 30 minutes reading this thread, which has been a fascinating insight. 

Great stuff :good 

By the way, do you have any recollections of Willie Pastrano, JG?


----------



## doug.ie

great reading.....i looked him up...

http://www.celebrityaccess.com/news/profile.html?id=351


----------



## JamieC

Great thread! :good


----------



## john garfield

dkos said:


> I've just spent the last 30 minutes reading this thread, which has been a fascinating insight.
> 
> Great stuff :good
> 
> By the way, do you have *any recollections of Willie Pastrano*, JG?


A joy ta read Willie's name, dkos. Trained with him and what was still Cassius Clay at the 5th St. Gym in Miami.


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> i will brother, i know few people who will really enjoy this piece... *im brainwashing my youngest nephew whos just turned 8yrs into boxing *at the moment haha just like my oldman did to me when i was young, im taking him down to my boxing club once a week and hes loving it


Bet your nephew's eyes were big as saucers, NM...Remember it WELL.


----------



## dkos

john garfield said:


> A joy ta read Willie's name, dkos. Trained with him and what was still Cassius Clay at the 5th St. Gym in Miami.


Incredible stuff, JG :good

I've read that Willie taught a young Cassius a few moves, which wouldn't surprise me!

There's a short clip on YouTube of Pastrano in action. I love watching it and studying his footwork and style; just a joy to behold:


----------



## Flea Man

Wow! Much more added since I last visited :good


----------



## doug.ie

JG...question for you....with all that you have seen.....have you ever seen a boxer who you thought was being pushed into the wrong style of boxing by his handlers ?
i.e. a slugger being turned into a boxer and not taking to it as well as if he was left to be a slugger....something like that ?


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> JG...question for you....with all that you have seen.....have you ever seen a boxer who you thought was being pushed into the wrong style of boxing by his handlers ?
> i.e. a slugger being turned into a boxer and not taking to it as well as if he was left to be a slugger....something like that ?


First thing comes to mind, d, is how hard Charley Goldman was pressed to make Marciano more of a textbook fighter. The lawn jockey stuck to his guns. Proof's in the pudding.

Lemme put on my thinking cap to see if I can find some that more closely address your question


----------



## john garfield

*BOXING GYM VOLUNTEER: "Wish I had this when I was a kid"
*
Thought you guys might get a kick outta this:

My amateur team was staffed with local volunteers who had some ring experience and wanted to keep the kids off the street. They were invaluable: wrapped hands, taught fundamentals, had them fitted for mouthpieces, worked corners during sparring and drove them to amateur shows and smokers all over New York.

One guy in particular, Gino -- very quiet - barely spoke above a whisper - was tireless. Never lost his patience with kids always testing. He was in the gym week days, weekends - never complained about doing the most menial things.

One day while the kids were working the bags, he came over: "Joe&#8230;I wish I had this when I was a kid, maybe I wouldn't have done some of the things I did."

"What'd you do, Gino?"

"Armed robbery and kidnapping."


----------



## Luf

Absolutely tremendous stuff JG.

Truly a gent and scholar.

You paint a great picture with your words and I'd happily give my right arm to have shared your experiences.

I could ramble on about how great that was to read, but I think ultimately it comes to two words:

"thank you"


----------



## john garfield

lufcrazy said:


> Absolutely tremendous stuff JG.
> 
> Truly a gent and scholar.
> 
> *You paint a great picture with your words *and I'd happily give my right arm to have shared your experiences.
> 
> I could ramble on about how great that was to read, but I think ultimately it comes to two words:
> 
> "thank you"


Will have this tattooed on my chest, l


----------



## john garfield

*FIGHTER WHO IDOLIZED CARMEN BASILIO
*
I trained at Stillman's with a rugged undefeated pro middleweight. There was buzz about him as a contender.

He had a walk-in crowd-pleasing style -- idolized Carmen Basilio, who was also handled by his manager, Al Braverman. At every opportunity, he pushed Braverman to introduce him to Basilio.

Finally, he got on a Basilio undercard in Syracuse and begged Braverman to meet Carmen. So, Braverman arranged it. Carmen said hello, shook his hand and wished him luck.

When Basilio walked away, the fighter turned to Braverman: "I'm not gonna look like him, am I?"


----------



## DonBoxer

Such a great piece of writing, was a pleasure to read.

Great stuff as always from you JG.


----------



## john garfield

DonBoxer said:


> Such a great piece of writing, was a pleasure to read.
> 
> Great stuff as always from you JG.


Starts my Father's Day with a lift, DB, even before coffee


----------



## john garfield

Will be back with more after Father's Day. Will probably wind-up the designated driver, after my wife 'n daughter have too much bubbly.


----------



## Mandanda

Sorry for not getting round to feedback last night John. I'm glad i never read this last night. I made a point of sitting down and reading it fully this evening, It's so good i go back every few lines to make sure i haven't missed anything. A masterpiece. 

I don't know a great deal like others about the fighters of those times but the names and the description of the gym is so graphic feels like your actually there. Thanks for sharing :good


----------



## Flea Man

@john garfield ever see Dick Tiger train at Stillmans?


----------



## john garfield

Mandanda said:


> Sorry for not getting round to feedback last night John. I'm glad i never read this last night. I made a point of sitting down and reading it fully this evening, It's so good i go back every few lines to make sure i haven't missed anything. A masterpiece.
> 
> I don't know a great deal like others about the fighters of those times but the names and *the description of the gym is so graphic feels like your actually there*. Thanks for sharing :good


That's the point, M. Wanna put readers ringside.

Will keep crankin' em for you


----------



## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> @john garfield ever see *Dick Tiger* train at Stillmans?


*DICK TIGER RECOLLECTION*

Dick Tiger's name conjures a vivid image of not only his pounding guys with tight vicious hooks sparring at Stillmans but the last time I was with him on fight night in the lobby at the old Madison Square Garden.

In trunks, Tiger was the image of the giant, coiled, knotted-muscled bronze statue that greeted the cross-section of fans that converged every fight night at MSG.

Outside the ring Tiger couldn't have been more nondescript -- wore ill-fitting mismatched thrift-shop suits, a thread-bare top coat 'n a Michael Corleone Hamburg that near covered his eyes.

His hand shake was more a dead fish.


----------



## john garfield

Used to date a stripper 'n drove her to a rowdy club in bumfuck N.Y.

Recognized the bouncer at the door as a rugged pro welter I used to train with years before. He was no more than 5'9" 'n ten pounds heavier

Seein' all the oiled-up monster knuckle-draggers inside, spoilin' to kick ass, I asked him: "How do you keep these guys in line?"

"None of 'em's willing to die"


----------



## Flea Man

@john garfield Awesome, thank you :good


----------



## doug.ie

is bumfuck really a place or was that a joke about where the strippers hang out ?


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> is bumfuck really a place or was that a joke about where the strippers hang out ?


slang for a town in the middle of no place, d


----------



## doug.ie

ah 

mate of mine runs a bar in a place called maspeth in queens..full of irish...i found it a rough enough spot...you know the place JG ?


----------



## Guest

Have just signed up here, and the first post I read is "STILLMAN'S GYM"... which had me completely spellbound! Like Mandanda says, it almost feels like you're there.

Probably the most brilliant piece of writing I've seen this side of A.J. Liebling!


----------



## Mandanda

john garfield said:


> That's the point, M. Wanna put readers ringside.
> 
> Will keep crankin' em for you


:good What would you say was the funniest moment there?. Plenty of character's sure there must of been some hilarious moments looking back.

Any fighters there who you think may of underachieved?.


----------



## john garfield

Bukkake said:


> Have just signed up here, and the first post I read is "STILLMAN'S GYM"... which had me completely spellbound! Like Mandanda says, *it almost feels like you're there*.
> 
> Probably the most brilliant piece of writing I've seen this side of A.J. Liebling!


Puttin 'ya ringside's my biggest reward, B.

Will keep tryin'


----------



## john garfield

Mandanda said:


> :good What would you say was the funniest moment there?. Plenty of character's sure there must of been some hilarious moments looking back.
> 
> Any fighters there who you think may of underachieved?.


Will mull it over 'n see what nugget I can find, M


----------



## Mandanda

john garfield said:


> Will mull it over 'n see what nugget I can find, M


Cheers John :good.


----------



## john garfield

*BAR BOUNCER PUSHED TO FIGHT*

Didn't happen in the gym, M, but still tickles me:

Was walkin' along Third Ave. in N.Y. one evening, past PJ Clarke's, the bar-hangout for the sports' crowd and media. A booming voice hailed me.

I looked in the direction of the THUNDER and saw "The Hulk" X2 in a Rose-Bowl-float-sized-suit standing in Clarke's doorway. His armor-plated chest and tree-trunk arms strained the seams of his jacket. He was big around as he was wide -- a neck that would support a bridge.

FRIGHTENING! Like a collector from "The Godfather."

He came away from the building and lumbered over. "It's me, Mark...Mark Tendler."

As I looked at him, I could see something faintly familiar about the mountain. Then it struck me: I'd trained with him at Stillman's Gym years before. But then he was a tall rangy heavyweight, barely 200 pounds.

He explained after he stopped fighting, he became a power lifter, and for years a professional wrestler and now the bouncer at Clarke's.

So, he walked me back just inside the entrance to Clarke's and we reminisced about the good ol' days.

Over at the bar -- about 15-feet away -- was an Ivy-League jock 'n his girl. The jock was at the bulletproof stage of bein' drunk 'n said to his sorority sweetie in a voice intended for Mark: "See the bouncer at the door? He thinks because he's so big, he scares people. He doesn't scare me!"

The people in the bar startin' getting' edgy, but Mark didn't even look at Ivy League; he continued talkin' to me, as if the lout didn't exist.

The jock raised the ante: "HE THINKS HE CAN PRETEND I'M NOT HERE. I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT A PHONEY HE IS. HOLD MY COAT!" he said to his girl.

Everybody in the bar cleared away, but Mark kept talkin' to me, without a hint of concern. I was gettin' more anxious by the moment.

The jock, full of whiskey muscles, swaggered towards us. Mark still didn't acknowledge him. When the jock got less than an arms-length away, Mark turned to him and said softly: "If you hit me and I find out about it, you're gonna be in a lotta trouble."

The jock turned ashen... 'n slunk away.


----------



## Mandanda

john garfield said:


> Didn't happen in the gym, M, but still tickles me:
> 
> Was walkin' along Third Ave. in N.Y. one evening, past PJ Clarke's, the bar-hangout for the sports' crowd and media. A booming voice hailed me.
> 
> I looked in the direction of the THUNDER and saw "The Hulk" X2 in a Rose-Bowl-float-sized-suit standing in Clarke's doorway. His armor-plated chest and tree-trunk arms strained the seams of his jacket. He was big around as he was wide -- a neck that would support a bridge.
> 
> FRIGHTENING! Like a collector from "The Godfather."
> 
> He came away from the building and lumbered over. "It's me, Mark...Mark Tendler."
> 
> As I looked at him, I could see something faintly familiar about the mountain. Then it struck me: I'd trained with him at Stillman's Gym years before. But then he was a tall rangy heavyweight, barely 200 pounds.
> 
> He explained after he stopped fighting, he became a power lifter, and for years a professional wrestler and now the bouncer at Clarke's.
> 
> So, he walked me back just inside the entrance to Clarke's and we reminisced about the good ol' days.
> 
> Over at the bar -- about 15-feet away -- was an Ivy-League jock 'n his girl. The jock was at the bulletproof stage of bein' drunk 'n said to his sorority sweetie in a voice intended for Mark: "See the bouncer at the door? He thinks because he's so big, he scares people. He doesn't scare me!"
> 
> The people in the bar startin' getting' edgy, but Mark didn't even look at Ivy League; he continued talkin' to me, as if the lout didn't exist.
> 
> The jock raised the ante: "HE THINKS HE CAN PRETEND I'M NOT HERE. I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT A PHONEY HE IS. HOLD MY COAT!" he said to his girl.
> 
> Everybody in the bar cleared away, but Mark kept talkin' to me, without a hint of concern. I was gettin' more anxious by the moment.
> 
> The jock, full of whiskey muscles, swaggered towards us. Mark still didn't acknowledge him. When the jock got less than an arms-length away, Mark turned to him and said softly: "If you hit me and I find out about it, you're gonna be in a lotta trouble."
> 
> The jock turned ashen... 'n slunk away.


:lol::lol: Sheer class! Thanks John. Amazing stuff. This thread is pure gold.


----------



## doug.ie

there's a book there JG...a bestseller..i'm telling you


----------



## Mandanda

I agree with Doug, Amazing stuff really is and i'm not overly mad on reading about the old times etc. This is one book i would buy!.


----------



## john garfield

Mandanda said:


> :lol::lol: Sheer class! Thanks John. Amazing stuff. This thread is pure gold.


Tell your buds, M. We can start a Tsunami.


----------



## john garfield

Mandanda said:


> I agree with Doug, Amazing stuff really is and i'm not overly mad on reading about the old times etc. *This is one book i would buy!*.


Gotta show this to my wife, M. She may not be so quick ta throw me out.


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> there's a book there JG...a bestseller..i'm telling you


You anklin' ta be my agent, doug ?


----------



## doug.ie

thought you'd never ask JG


----------



## Luf

This thread!

just wow.

JG, I bet you and Burt Sugar would have had some amazing conversations over a cigar or two!


----------



## Mandanda

john garfield said:


> Gotta show this to my wife, M. She may not be so quick ta throw me out.


:rofl


john garfield said:


> Tell your buds, M. We can start a Tsunami.


:good I'm gonna post this link of my facebook. Got a fair few friends on there who are into boxing. They deserve to see this :yep.


----------



## john garfield

lufcrazy said:


> This thread!
> 
> just wow.
> 
> JG, I bet you and Burt Sugar would have had some amazing conversations over a cigar or two!


Hadda chase that dead-beat for years ta collect money he owed me, l


----------



## john garfield

Mandanda said:


> :rofl
> 
> :good *I'm gonna post this link of my facebook*. Got a fair few friends on there who are into boxing. They deserve to see this :yep.


Can't askya ta do that, M. Standin' on the roof of your house 'n yellin' at the top of your lungs would suffice.


----------



## BoxingAnalyst

Just had a read through this thread, great stuff and great writing @john garfield


----------



## john garfield

BoxingAnalyst said:


> Just had a read through this thread, great stuff and great writing @john garfield


"ppreciate the props, BA. Spread the word


----------



## Bajingo

Fantastic to read this, JG, it really is. :good


----------



## Flea Man

@john garfield sometimes guys would be training at Stillmans who had previously fought, or who could conceivably fight in the future. Any snipes about superior prowess get particularly out of hand. Apologies if you've already been asked a question in the same vain :good


----------



## dftaylor

JG - wonderfully written piece. I find a lot of these historical pieces disappear up their own rear ends, lost in symbolism and self-indulgence, but you use it beautifully to add flavour to each piece of the narrative. Lots of nice anecdotes woven into the over-arching sense of nostalgia, but with a really lovely sense of melancholy. 

Great work. Thanks for letting me know it was here.


----------



## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> @john garfield sometimes guys would be training at Stillmans who had previously fought, or who could conceivably fight in the future. Any snipes about superior prowess get particularly out of hand. Apologies if you've already been asked a question in the same vain :good


If your asking if sparring got outta control, FM. Every day was WW3. These were the best fighters in the world. Everyone wanted to be the Alpha.

Fans would plunk-down PPV now ta see the Jimmy Flood-Jimmy Herring daily car wrecks


----------



## Flea Man

@john garfield I can imagine. As always, thanks for responding, you can NEVER know enough about this era, so I salute you.


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> JG - wonderfully written piece. *I find a lot of these historical pieces disappear up their own rear ends, lost in symbolism and self-indulgence, but you use it beautifully to add flavour to each piece of the narrative. Lots of nice anecdotes woven into the over-arching sense of nostalgia, but with a really lovely sense of melancholy*.
> 
> Great work. Thanks for letting me know it was here.


Ya have a nifty way with words, d. Me thinks ya do some writin', too.

Keep comin' back. I'll keep crankin'


----------



## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> @john garfield I can imagine. As always, thanks for responding, you can NEVER know enough about this era, so *I salute you*.


Last time someone saluted me,I wound up in the army, FM


----------



## dftaylor

john garfield said:


> Ya have a nifty way with words, d. Me thinks ya do some writin', too.
> 
> Keep comin' back, d. I'll keep crankin'


I even get paid to write!


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> *I even get paid to write!*


Not too loud, you'll get mugged, d


----------



## Mandanda

:lol:


----------



## john garfield

*HENRY COOPER CONFRONTED AT TRAFFIC LIGHT*

Henry Cooper, the former British and European heavyweight king, told this story before the first Ali fight:

He was at the wheel of a lorry driving someplace with two of his huge sparring partners, Joe Bygraves and Joe Erskine. They were laughing, having such a good time, Henry wasn't paying as close attention as he should have and cut off a driver.

At the light, the incensed motorist - the image of Mr. Bean -- jumped from his car and raced over to Cooper's window, shouting.

Henry tried to apologize, but the irate driver was having none of it... and suddenly slapped Cooper in the face.

With that, the doors of the lorry flew open and Cooper and the two menacing sparring partners surrounded the little guy. He looked from one to the other, then announced to Cooper: 'YOU'RE LUCKY YOU'RE WITH YOUR MATES!'

All they could do was laugh and drive off.


----------



## Flea Man

john garfield said:


> Last time someone saluted me,I wound up in the army, FM


Actually let out a belly laugh. Why can't you be my Granddad JG?!


----------



## PoliSari

thank you for sending message to me about this thread JG. happily spent most of my day reading it.

was going to save some for later but that was impossible once i started! my English is not perfect and even though Boggle sometimes teaches me slang and sayings i am not a great wordsmith like you two :think.. so i will use just (ab)use a thesaurus and possibly embarrass myself.

[HR][/HR]fascinating and accessible. an enthralling transportation to a vibrant world of ring legends and pugilistic heroes. proof that while buildings they were forged in may fall their impact on hearts and minds remains to be passed on to future fans and warriors to be.

word.
*~P*
[HR][/HR]
how was that @Boggle ? i did good?









in other words.. i very much appreciate you taking time to write this and look forward to reading more!

PS: i loved this one:



john garfield said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Ya go to the gym, ya get to know the fighters 'n trainers.
> 
> One trainer in particular, a flinty former Eastern Bloc Olympian, impressed me. Never ingratiated himself with anyone. Even when handed glowing write-ups in the morning about one of his boxers, he brushed them aside with a tight smile, barely nodding to the other trainers and went about his business.
> 
> He had Tony Zale's cheekbones, a military brush-cut, Charles Bronson's squint, steel in his spine and fixed disappointment on his face.
> 
> He knew his stuff - no towel carrier -- a tyrant as conditioner. Brooked no nonsense. "Discipline! Discipline! Discipline!" he pounded home in Russian, Armenian, Bulgarian and Cyrillic-cadenced English, working tirelessly on balance, mechanics, correcting mistakes and demonstrating with the precision of a watchmaker how to exploit weaknesses, re-running sparring videos.
> 
> He even earned the trust of the thug/wunderkinds by gloving-up, showing how easily they could be picked apart. Maybe twenty pounds heavier then when he competed as a middleweight, but not hard to imagine how accomplished he was in his youth.
> 
> When there was any hoopla in the gym&#8230;say, a press conference with two big-name fighters -- promoters, publicists, reporters and photographers hogging every inch of space, yelling for attention, he ignored it -- kept his charges focused, grunting only "Whatever you having," when a trainer passed him a deli menu for lunch.
> 
> We had long talks about boxing greats and tactics. He had razor sharp observations -- knew the game inside out.
> 
> Like most trainers, to scrape by -- aside from his own boxers -- he worked corners in the gym, did pads, and seconded main-eventers and prelim kids on cards all over California and Vegas at a moment's notice.
> 
> So, when I received an email from a film producer asking me to play a cornerman in a TV promo for the Tyson-Etienne fight for a healthy payday, I told him a conflict prevented me, but I had just the guy. I'd pose it to him.
> 
> Handing the trainer the offer at the gym, I was bursting for his reaction, repeating over and over how perfect he'd be for it, how good the money was, pointing to the paragraph.
> 
> He studied it carefully -- pored over every word, then looked up, shook his head, returned the offer and smiled that same tight smile: "It's not for me," and went back to working with a fighter on the heavy bag.
> 
> Puzzled, didn't begin to cover it: The money was fantastic, the hours were good, he wouldn't have to say anything, do only what he did normally, and it was being shot on a stage just blocks from the gym. It didn't add up. Fight jobs weren't falling out of trees...and they weren't asking him to wear a ski mask and carry a gun, so, why not? A gig was gig.
> 
> I kept turning it over in my head driving home: Why would he say no? He needed the money. What possible reason could he have? Then it dawned on me&#8230;sadly: the shunting aside of favorable write-ups, never looking at a menu, not a flicker at the money in the offer, this proud man couldn't read.


----------



## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> Actually let out a belly laugh. *Why can't you be my Granddad JG?!*


'cause I'm 21 before I look in the mirror, FM


----------



## Boogle McDougal

Not enough, JG, it's not enough! 
They're beggin' for more!
You gotta share your stories about The Rock!!










@PoliSari - :good


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> Not enough, JG, it's not enough!
> They're beggin' for more!
> *You gotta share your stories about The Rock!*!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @PoliSari - :good


Will do, B. Putin' a Pep piece up shortly.


----------



## Boogle McDougal

Alright, I'll take it


----------



## john garfield

'ppreciate the encouragement, guys. If I can get my ass in a chair ta do a book, wouldya rather stories like these or a boxing novel?

(No checks. Only cash)


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> 'ppreciate the encouragement, guys. If I can get my ass in a chair ta do a book, wouldya rather stories like these or a boxing novel?
> 
> (No checks. Only cash)


I think a compilation of stories and vignettes would be best. To do a novel would require a more linear narrative, no? That doesn't seem to be necessary. However, we haven't been subjected to it yet either. Anyway, as is, the stories stand up by themselves.


----------



## john garfield

*CLEVELAND WILLIAMS STEAMED AT WILLIE PEP
*
In the waning days of Willie Pep's career he took the bouts for walkin' around money.

All he had left was a twinkle in his eye and a wisecrack. Most boxers looked bigger in trunks; he looked smaller.

He was trainin' at the 5th Street Gym in Miami. Heavyweight Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams was there as well. But, though faded, Pep was the star with gym rats, which grated on Williams, who was always sullen, while Willie kibitzed and clowned.

Williams was the closest thing to Superman -- a walkin' anatomy chart&#8230;at his peak, before he got gut shot.. His left-hook cannonades on the heavy bag shook the gym.

Fifth Street was compact -- always jammed, so Pep and Williams had to do floor exercises side by side. Pep's fans constantly stoked his ego:

" Willie, you could kill that big bum! He'd never touch you."

"You'd make him look like a jerk, Willie."

It went on like that for weeks.

No way Williams didn't hear it.... He was nine feet tall - proud, a knockout puncher, and bristling.

While Pep joked, Williams seethed. You could've cut the tension with a knife.

One day when Pep's faithful were eggin' him on:

"You could kick his ass, Willie"

"You'd make him look like fool, Willie!"

Pep turned to 'em: "All I can tellya is: I'd hate to have him hang his HAMMER on me!"

Williams exploded with laughter. Once again the "Will-o'-the-wisp" dodged a haymaker.


----------



## john garfield

Special delivery for Supermanintights



john garfield said:


> In the waning days of Willie Pep's career, he took the bouts for walkin' around money.
> 
> All he had left was a twinkle in his eye and a wisecrack. Most boxers looked bigger in trunks; he looked smaller.
> 
> He was trainin' at the 5th Street Gym in Miami. Heavyweight Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams was there as well. But, though faded, Pep was the star with gym rats, which grated on Williams, who was always sullen, while Willie kibitzed and clowned.
> 
> Williams was the closest thing to Superman -- a walkin' anatomy chart&#8230;at his peak, before he got gut shot.. His left-hook cannonades on the heavy bag shook the gym.
> 
> Fifth Street was compact -- always jammed, so Pep and Williams had to do floor exercises side by side. Pep's fans constantly stoked his ego:
> 
> " Willie, you could kill that big bum! He'd never touch you."
> 
> "You'd make him look like a jerk, Willie."
> 
> It went on like that for weeks.
> 
> No way Williams didn't hear it.... He was nine feet tall - proud, a knockout puncher, and bristling.
> 
> While Pep joked, Williams seethed. You could've cut the tension with a knife.
> 
> One day when Pep's faithful were eggin' him on:
> 
> "You could kick his ass, Willie"
> 
> "You'd make him look like fool, Willie!"
> 
> Pep turned to 'em: "All I can tellya is: I'd hate to have him hang his HAMMER on me!"
> 
> Williams exploded with laughter. Once again the "Will-o'-the-wisp" dodged a haymaker.


----------



## TheDemolitionDan

I just spent a good hour reading this whole thread...and it was definitely well worth it. Great, great stuff, JG. You really do tell a magnificent story that puts the reader in a world he never experienced, but you tell it so, well, so vividly...it's just amazing. :lol: You are like the Vin Scully of boxing, you really do tell a fabulous story, and I look forward to reading more of your stories in the future. :happy:thumbsup


----------



## john garfield

TheDemolitionDan said:


> I just spent a good hour reading this whole thread...and it was definitely well worth it. Great, great stuff, JG. *You really do tell a magnificent story that puts the reader in a world he never experienced, but you tell it so, well, so vividly...it's just amazing*. :lol: *You are like the Vin Scully of boxing,* you really do tell a fabulous story, and I look forward to reading more of your stories in the future. :happy:thumbsup


Tryin' ta keep a lid on my ego, but you're not helping, TDD

When Vin Scully gets to be my age, he'll tell a good story, too


----------



## john garfield

TheDemolitionDan said:


> I just spent a good hour reading this whole thread...and it was definitely well worth it. Great, great stuff, JG. You really do tell a magnificent story that puts the reader in a world he never experienced, but you tell it so, well, so vividly...it's just amazing. :lol: You are like the Vin Scully of boxing, you really do tell a fabulous story, and I look forward to reading more of your stories in the future. :happy:thumbsup


I'd post more stories,but think I'll spend the balance of the day re-reading this.


----------



## TheDemolitionDan

john garfield said:


> Tryin' ta keep a lid on my ego, but you're not helping, TDD
> 
> When Vin Scully gets to be my age, he'll tell a good story, too


 No need to keep a lid on the ego. You are the boss. If anyone deserves to have an ego, it definitely is you. You've seen things that a lot of us may never see. And you have a way of putting those memories into a memorable story. That's a wonderful talent to have.

:lol: Yeah, may'be so. How 'bout this? You are the Ray Robinson of boxing writers. :yep


----------



## john garfield

TheDemolitionDan said:


> No need to keep a lid on the ego. You are the boss. If anyone deserves to have an ego, it definitely is you. You've seen things that a lot of us may never see. And you have a way of putting those memories into a memorable story. That's a wonderful talent to have.
> 
> :lol: Yeah, may'be so. How 'bout this? *You are the Ray Robinson of boxing writers*. :yep


I'll have to lay down the law to my wife: NO HEAD SHALL BE HIGHER THAN MINE!


----------



## john garfield

*"It brought boxing back a 100 years!"*

An ornery 5'9" former OZ heavyweight described one of his early bouts in Australia and an opponent that wanted ta take it to the street.

"I fought in the Enmore Theater in Sydney. The promoter was a junkie. Instead of putting on a feed at the weigh-in, the way everyone else does, they had a strip show. The ring girls just peeled off all their clothes. Girls were fighting with their boyfriends for staring at the girls -- unbelievable!

"It brought boxing back 100 years!

"At the end of the fight, my check bounced and I got the promoter by the throat. It's comical.

"The promoter used to take the deposits, payments, sponsor's money and go home... give his wife a slapp'n around. She'd call the cops. He'd get locked up...He'd have an excuse not to return any money. He was priceless!

"Takin' it to the street doesn't happen a lot. I was on Kostya Tszyu's undercard. I fought a big, friggin' Kiwi monster. We beat the crap out of each other for ten rounds. Both our heads looked like pumpkins.

"When we're changing, he says, 'Hey, bro, let's go get a beer down the pub, heh?' I says, 'You look in the friggin' mirror? Cause, I'm not going anywhere. I look worse than you and I won. I looked like the Elephant Man -- screw that! Go out in public? Kids 'd be cry'n and scream'n. No! Pass!

"He was friggin' mad. Sure enough, he wound up in jail for wack'n somebody. So, for sure, he would have jugged me in the pub. I have no doubt in my mind, whatsoever."


----------



## Jay

john garfield said:


> Special delivery for Supermanintights


:good :lol:

Thanks matey.

Any Willie Pep story is more than welcome by me. 

It's just a great feeling for me to read/learn more about the guy, especially when I have so little time to really research into him beyond what I've done previously.


----------



## john garfield

Supermanintights said:


> :good :lol:
> 
> Thanks matey.
> 
> Any Willie Pep story is more than welcome by me.


Will post another on Pep, S. You'll see Willie in a whole new light


----------



## Burt Brooks

john garfield said:


> Not too loud, you'll get mugged, d


JG, speaking of muggings ! Yesterday I was mugged in my local library ! And I had to whisper for help !!!


----------



## Burt Brooks

Supermanintights said:


> :good :lol:
> 
> Thanks matey.
> 
> Any Willie Pep story is more than welcome by me.
> 
> It's just a great feeling for me to read/learn more about the guy, especially when I have so little time to really research into him beyond what I've done previously.


Following John Garfield is like trying to tag Willie Pep before his near fatal plane accident..The first time my dad and i saw willie pep was at MSG in 1943 whe the 126 pound Pep took on a top 134 pound fighter from New Jersey, named Allie Stolz, who could "do it all". Seeing Stolz beat everyone in the NY fight clubs we thought Allie would be too big for Pep, but were we surprised...Pep won every minute of every round, and was impossible to hit as he anticipated every move of the LW Stolz...We at MSG were stunned and in awe of Pep that night in 1943, FOUR years before Willie almost died in a plane crash. I am convinced that THIS Willie Pep
in 1943 beats Sandy Saddler handily were they to have met before the plane crash took away a lot of his uncanny quickness...What a shame we have no existing film of the Willie Pep I saw that night at the height of his powers...His likes we will never see again...


----------



## doug.ie

who was the oz heavyweight JG ?

good man burt, great post too...keep em' coming also


----------



## 2manyusernames

Wow. Amazing! Cheers JG.


----------



## john garfield

2manyusernames said:


> Wow. Amazing! Cheers JG.


Keep comin' back, 2. Always anxious to hear a Brit point-of-view


----------



## Twelvey

That was great. Really, really great. Thanks JG


----------



## john garfield

12downfor10 said:


> That was great. Really, really great. Thanks JG


There's more to come, 12. So, come back soon


----------



## Twelvey

john garfield said:


> There's more to come, 12. So, come back soon


I will do. That piece generally took me away for a while, superb writing and a real insight :good


----------



## john garfield

12downfor10 said:


> I will do. That piece generally took me away for a while, superb writing and a real insight :good


Long as ya keep sayin' things like that,12, I'll have a car come getya


----------



## Twelvey

:good


----------



## DrMo

@john garfield

I love this story, from a thread on ESB



john garfield said:


> Reading an incident 'bout 122-pound boxer on this thread, made me recall this incident:
> 
> Saw this at a gym in N.Y. in the early '70s. it was frequented by alotta wiseguys who watched sparring.
> 
> A three-time 122-pound Golden Gloves Champion and top-five pro contender was sparring, 'n a mountain-of-a-bookmaker (easily six-three, pushin' 300 pounds) -- grandstanding for his goombahs -- kept shoutin' cracks (I'd squash ya like bug -- blah blah blah)
> 
> The fighter, who was about five-six 'n could really crack, wasn't ruffled but his manager 'n trainer were gettin' more 'n more steamed. Finally, the red-faced manager told the blowhard to put a sock in it.
> 
> The wiseguy just got louder and 'n said what he'd do to the kid if he was in the ring. The manager jumped on it: "Why don't you put your money where you mouth is! The book shot back: "How 'bout for ten large?
> 
> "Make it 20," the manager said.
> 
> "DONE!"
> 
> It was arranged after the gym was closed. Three rounds with ten-ounce gloves, no headgear. The owner of the gym held the stake.
> 
> The wiseguy showed-up smokin' a cigar, stuffed like sausage into a stadium-sized track suit.
> 
> The Jr. feather, in trunks, was cool as ice in his corner.
> 
> The bell rang and the book thundered across the ring windmilling haymakers. The fighter slipped a right and dug a left hook -- WHUMP! -- into the book's gut. It sounded like Marciano hit the heavy bag.
> 
> The book did a belly flop into the canvas, and lay motionless. We thought he was dead. Half the guys there were on parole, so they ran like hell.


:lol:

I like the one about the DiMaggio fan with the restaurant too but I cant find it


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> @john garfield
> 
> *I love this story, from a thread on ESB*
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I like the one about the DiMaggio fan with the restaurant too but I cant find it


Thanks for finding my gym story, DrMo. Was gonna post it but didn't know where the hell it was

Good ta haveya aboard. Will post the Joe D story for you.


----------



## john garfield

*BOXER CLOWNS ROBERTO DURAN*

For Roberto Duran fans:

In the mid '70s Roberto Duran was the terror of the lightweight division. Nobody in his right mind would face him without a whip and a gun.

Edwin Viruet, a sweet Puerto Rican boxer with very little pop, was offered a main-go with "Hands of Stone" at the Nassau Coliseum.

Without firepower, Viruet figured to be eaten alive. Duran was 52-1, with 45 KO's.

Viruet couldn't punch, but he had no nerves. Duran didn't faze him a bit.

Fight night, all were prepared to see Viruet butchered, or at least run for his life.

But, Viruet did the unthinkable. He mocked Duran - taunted him, made faces, stuck out his tongue, punched behind his back in clinches.

The fans loved it -- howled with laughter. Viruet was making Duran look a fool. And Hands of Stone got more crazed. He didn't just want to kill Viruet; he wanted to dismember him 'n grind his bones to powder.

Though Duran was winning handily by the 10th round, the crowd was chanting for Viruet. One guy yelled-out with admiration:

"HE DOESN'T KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORD FEAR!"

Somebody shot back: "...OR CAT OR DOG!"


----------



## john garfield

*STREET FIGHTER WANTED OUT OF THE ARMY*

There was this guy I grew up with, Carlo - a loose-canon street guy.

Fought in alotta smokers... loved to mix-it-up for no reason... be the first guy to put the boots to somebody... did anything he damn pleased. We were in Basic Training together at Fort Dix, N.J.

Carlo HATED being told what do. He wanted out desperately.

There wasn't a day that went by that he wasn't scheming a way out: talking back, not listening or throwing his footlocker through a window.

Every night for WEEKS, he took-a-leak in his bunk and went to sleep in it.

One day he burst into the barracks, euphoric: "THEY'RE LETTING ME OUT! I FOXED'M... THEY THINK I'M CRAZY!"


----------



## john garfield

*TOMMY GALLAGHER: The closest thing to Popeye Doyle*

If you saw the bald-headed Damon Runyon trainer on "The Contender," that's Tommy Gallagher, my partner in a gym and an amateur boxing team 'n the closest thing to Popeye Doyle from the "FRENCH CONNECTION."

Gallagher's larger-than-life, profane, mean as a junk-yard dog, opinionated, impatient, very loud, crude, brutally honest, very loyal, a former undercover cop and laugh riot 24-hours-a-day. Being with his family is like an episode of the Ozbourne's.

Author William Saroyan put it best, describing his dad: "My father lived his life at the top of his lungs"...That's Tommy Gallagher.

Tommy was Donnie Lalonde's trainer when he defended his light heavy title at Caesar's Palace in Vegas against Sugar Ray Leonard. Gallagher asked me to join him.

Because Lalonde was the headliner, everybody in his entourage was given VIP treatment by the management of the hotel.

One evening I was in the lobby with Tommy, his family and some neighborhood friends. A very official looking guy in a three-piece suit came over: "Good evening, Mr. Gallagher.

"Speaking for the management of the hotel, I'd like to extend a warm welcome to you and all of your friends. Now, If you'll follow me, I'll take you to be seated at the Pointer Sisters' show."

Gallagher looked at me. His voice echoing through the marble lobby: "WHO IS THIS HALF-A-***?"


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> Ya go to the gym, ya get to know the fighters 'n trainers.
> 
> One trainer in particular, a flinty former Eastern Bloc Olympian, impressed me. Never ingratiated himself with anyone. Even when handed glowing write-ups in the morning about one of his boxers, he brushed them aside with a tight smile, barely nodding to the other trainers and went about his business.
> 
> He had Tony Zale's cheekbones, a military brush-cut, Charles Bronson's squint, steel in his spine and fixed disappointment on his face.
> 
> He knew his stuff - no towel carrier -- a tyrant as conditioner. Brooked no nonsense. "Discipline! Discipline! Discipline!" he pounded home in Russian, Armenian, Bulgarian and Cyrillic-cadenced English, working tirelessly on balance, mechanics, correcting mistakes and demonstrating with the precision of a watchmaker how to exploit weaknesses, re-running sparring videos.
> 
> He even earned the trust of the thug/wunderkinds by gloving-up, showing how easily they could be picked apart. Maybe twenty pounds heavier then when he competed as a middleweight, but not hard to imagine how accomplished he was in his youth.
> 
> When there was any hoopla in the gym&#8230;say, a press conference with two big-name fighters -- promoters, publicists, reporters and photographers hogging every inch of space, yelling for attention, he ignored it -- kept his charges focused, grunting only "Whatever you having," when a trainer passed him a deli menu for lunch.
> 
> We had long talks about boxing greats and tactics. He had razor sharp observations -- knew the game inside out.
> 
> Like most trainers, to scrape by -- aside from his own boxers -- he worked corners in the gym, did pads, and seconded main-eventers and prelim kids on cards all over California and Vegas at a moment's notice.
> 
> So, when I received an email from a film producer asking me to play a cornerman in a TV promo for the Tyson-Etienne fight for a healthy payday, I told him a conflict prevented me, but I had just the guy. I'd pose it to him.
> 
> Handing the trainer the offer at the gym, I was bursting for his reaction, repeating over and over how perfect he'd be for it, how good the money was, pointing to the paragraph.
> 
> He studied it carefully -- pored over every word, then looked up, shook his head, returned the offer and smiled that same tight smile: "It's not for me," and went back to working with a fighter on the heavy bag.
> 
> Puzzled, didn't begin to cover it: The money was fantastic, the hours were good, he wouldn't have to say anything, do only what he did normally, and it was being shot on a stage just blocks from the gym. It didn't add up. Fight jobs weren't falling out of trees...and they weren't asking him to wear a ski mask and carry a gun, so, why not? A gig was gig.
> 
> I kept turning it over in my head driving home: Why would he say no? He needed the money. What possible reason could he have? Then it dawned on me&#8230;sadly: the shunting aside of favorable write-ups, never looking at a menu, not a flicker at the money in the offer, this proud man couldn't read.


daum thats sad... what a guy though


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> *daum thats sad*... what a guy though


C'mon back with some buds, NM. Have lots more that won't leaveya with the blues.


----------



## doug.ie

question JG.

i'm off the opinion that boxing is more corrupt now than it ever has been.....you were there the time of the mobs and so on..you've seen a lot....what do you think ?


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> question JG.
> 
> *i'm off the opinion that boxing is more corrupt now than it ever has been*.....you were there the time of the mobs and so on..you've seen a lot....what do you think ?


There are just more eyes on it now, doug -- a 24/7 news-cycle. It was much more corrupt when the mob, literally, ran the sport in the '40s 'n '50s. It was their way or the highway. "Mister Grey" made offers that few could refuse.


----------



## Flea Man

@john garfield @doug.ie certainly more corrupt in the Carbo days from what I can gather.


----------



## NoMas

cant remember who said it, maybe al certo or someone, that boxing might of been more corrupted back in the day, daum near every fight especially at the main ring in the garden, but the fights where more entertaining, and everyone fought each other, so the public still won, and aslong as the fighters cooperated, everyone got theyre shot... just one guys opinion though, seems valid to me?


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> C'mon back with some buds, NM. Have lots more that won't leaveya with the blues.


already linked the page to people brother


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> *already linked the page to people brother*


You've brightened 'n ol' man's day, NM


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> For Roberto Duran fans:
> 
> In the mid '70s Roberto Duran was the terror of the lightweight division. Nobody in his right mind would face him without a whip and a gun.
> 
> Edwin Viruet, a sweet Puerto Rican boxer with very little pop, was offered a main-go with "Hands of Stone" at the Nassau Coliseum.
> 
> Without firepower, Viruet figured to be eaten alive. Duran was 52-1, with 45 KO's.
> 
> Viruet couldn't punch, but he had no nerves. Duran didn't faze him a bit.
> 
> Fight night, all were prepared to see Viruet butchered, or at least run for his life.
> 
> But, Viruet did the unthinkable. He mocked Duran - taunted him, made faces, stuck out his tongue, punched behind his back in clinches.
> 
> The fans loved it -- howled with laughter. Viruet was making Duran look a fool. And Hands of Stone got more crazed. He didn't just want to kill Viruet; he wanted to dismember him 'n grind his bones to powder.
> 
> Though Duran was winning handily by the 10th round, the crowd was chanting for Viruet. One guy yelled-out with admiration:
> 
> "HE DOESN'T KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORD FEAR!"
> 
> Somebody shot back: "...OR CAT OR DOG!"


Funny. You gotta share the Pipino Cuevas story.

This thread is just pure awesomeness, and you haven't even included your stories about Graziano yet.


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> Funny. You gotta share the "Pipino Cuevas can suck my cock!" story.
> 
> This thread is just pure awesomeness, and you haven't even included your stories about Graziano yet.


The good thing is ya didn't leak the punch line, B


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> The good thing is ya didn't leak the punch line, B


Oops ops

edited :good


----------



## john garfield

*WHAT ROBERTO DURAN WAS REALLY LIKE*

When Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center.

It was summertime, and sweltering. Every Latino worker in the area-- and their families -- watched their hero train at lunchtime.

The gym was a steam room -- jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. They pressed so close Duran barely had room for floor exercises. When he was done, he jumped in the ring to shadow box.

Spanning what looked like a crowded subway car, you could see chests swell - faces beaming with pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood at the ring apron, while their little ones looked up saucer-eyed at this God.

In the midst of this outpouring of love, somebody in the back -- unbelievably! -- kept shouting at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!"

Finally, Duran fixed him with a glare, stretched as far over the ropes as he could -- just above the glowing faces of mothers and toddlers -- and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY COCK!"


----------



## dftaylor

john garfield said:


> *This is for those that wanna know what Roberto Duran's really like:*
> 
> When Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center.
> 
> It was summertime, and sweltering. Every Latino worker in the area-- and their families -- watched their hero train at lunchtime.
> 
> The gym was a steam room -- jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. They pressed so close Duran barely had room for floor exercises. When he was done, he jumped in the ring to shadow box.
> 
> Spanning what looked like a crowded subway car, you could see chests swell - faces beaming with pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood at the ring apron, while their little ones looked up saucer-eyed at this God.
> 
> In the midst of this outpouring of love, somebody in the back -- unbelievably! -- kept shouting at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!
> 
> Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!"
> 
> Finally, Duran fixed him with a glare, stretched as far over the ropes as he could -- just above the glowing faces of mothers and toddlers -- and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY COCK!"


:lol:


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> :lol:


Let your buds know they can get a giggle here, df


----------



## john garfield

*This is an eerie Q&A I did, considering what happened not long after *

You see champions on pay-per-view; they're
larger-than-life mythic figures -- rock stars --
towering over the Vegas Strip on plasma
screens. A stage so exalted, it's only a dream for
work-a-day fighters.

So, I couldn't square the demigod above the Strip
with the familiar loose-limbed figure in drab
sweats and a bloused white T-shirt moving
easily around a heavy bag at the Wild Card Gym
in Los Angeles - seemingly content with
anonymity.

The more he moved, the fluid grace registered: Vernon Forrest.

After working out, he agreed
to talk,

Q: I've never seen you here at Wild Card.
What brings you to this particular gym?

VF: Wild Card Gym is a boxer's gym. The atmosphere, 
the smell, it's more like a real boxing gym. When I started back
training, I wanted to start in a real boxing gym and
that's Wild Card Gym.

Q: OK, you're back. Will it be at welter or
junior middle, and is there any difference in
your approach now?

VF: If I could still make 147, I would probably
fight at 147lbs. But I probably have some of the
worst eating habits of any elite athlete in the
world. I'm addicted to junk food, candy, and all
that stuff. One of the things that helped me be
successful over the years is: I look at boxing as
you have the predator and you have the prey.
The guys coming up are the predators and the
champions are the prey. What made me
successful is that I always had a predator's
mentality coming up, and even as a champion I
had the predator's mentality. Once I became a
little bit comfortable, that's when I started
thinking like the prey. I forget there are a whole
lot of predators our there trying to get me. So the
main thing I have to do now that I'm moving up
is get back that predator's mentality.

Q: I know all of the fights that you've had and don't see a mark on
your face. Is it because of technique that you've avoided that?

VF: Absolutely! People forget that boxing is the art of hitting and not
getting hit. For most people, they'll see two fighters going toe-to-toe
and they'll say, "That's a great fight". That's not a great fight. It's an action
fight, but not a great fight. I try not to get hit as much as possible. That's the true art.

Q: Is your defense based on reflexes or
making the other guy do what you want him
to and setting traps?

VF: Both. In boxing, to be a great fighter, you
have to have great reflexes. But to control a
fighter, you throw punches to make a fighter do
want you want him to do. I'll setup a guy in the
first round, just so I can get him in the fourth
round. I learned that from watching old fighters
like a Ray Robinson and a Henry Armstrong.
When Robinson was setting a guy up, he might
throw a few body shots, just so he can hit you up
top with a left hook or right hand. He moves
around giving you all types of misdirections to
make you think he's interested in going one way,
just so he can attack you the other way. That's
what I do in my technical game. Setting a guy
up. Setting traps. I can pull the trigger anytime I
want to.

Q: You get full extension on all of your
combos -- they're not shoe shines. Did you
study Robinson's technique or is it natural?

VF: Well, Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter to
walk the planet, so I've drawn a lot of inspiration
from Ray. I've watched a lot of his fights. I've
watched a lot of his moves. Some things he did
were so fantastic -- so ahead of his time. There
are some moves that I can't make, but I try to
emulate Ray as much as possible.

Shoe Shining is just for show. You are not going
to hit a guy with a five, six, or seven-punch
combination, anyway&#8230; not a real world-class
fighter, at least. I learned a long time ago&#8230;to
make every punch count. To me, accuracy is
very important. So, I'm not going to waste my
time or energy throwing a shoe-shine, because
the only thing that does is get the crowd going,
but stiff jab, a stiff right hand or a stiff hook does
the same thing. So, I'd rather focus on stiff,
accurate punches then a shoeshine a combination,
which won't incapacitate my opponent at all.

Q: With all your amateur and professional
experience, what can a trainer teach you,
and how do you know whose the right guy?

VF: That goes back to being a great trainer. The
thing about trainers now-a-days is: Trainers don't
make fighters no more. Trainers don't take a guy
and raise him up from a kid and stay with that
kid. Trainers don't do that anymore. Trainers get
guys that are already established and say, "Well I
made him a champion". No! You didn't make him
a champion; he was a champion when you got
him. You on for the ride. When I look at
trainers, I look at guy who works with a certain
caliber of guys. You'll know a good trainer five or
ten minutes talking with them.

Q: What is it that you see or hear?

VF: It's an instinctual thing. You just know. If I'm
hitting the bag, I have a trainer watching over me
and he supposed to be watching what I do and
pick out the mistakes that I'm making. So, I'll hit
the bag and drop my left hand on purpose just to
see if he picks it up. You know what some guys
will say? "Good Job, Good Work." I'm making
mistakes on purpose just to see if he'll pick it up.
So, little things like. Some trainers are trainers.
Some trainers are motivators. Some trainers are
just good for television.

Q: Who's impressed you as a trainer?
VF: I like Emmanuel Steward. He'll stick around
on the ups and downs with guys. When you have
guys like that, they are certified. They get the
USDA stamp of approval. Buddy McGirt is one of
the hottest trainers out there&#8230; and he's hot for a
reason. You don't see Buddy taking guys from
nothing and making them into something. But,
he's taken the guys that might have slipped a
little bit and put them back on the elite level
again. I'd say Buddy is a great trainer. But for
some reason, I've always been partial to the older
guys. Trainers that have been around and have
seen the different eras of boxing. Me, personally,
I always like those types of guys. I admired guys
like Eddie Futch. You can't put a dollar figure on
experience. Boxing has evolved, and you have to
keep up with the times. But I'd love to have
someone like that in my corner.

Q: What drives you?

VF: They say champions are born and not made. I believe
there is some truth in that. For me, I have this
unquenchable thirst to be the best at what I do&#8230; to not to
have someone say that there were better then me. 
So, if I get hit, I don't want to go down and give this guy 
the satisfaction of knowing that he put me down. I don't want 
to lose&#8230; to give a guy the satisfaction to say that he beat me. So that's
the thing that drives me. That's the thing that's going to make me become champion again. That's the drive that's going to make me fight
Mayorga again, and all of the best fighters out there 
in my weight class and beat those guys.

Q: You brought it up. You mentioned Mayorga. 
What happened in those fights?

VF: The first time, it was just errors on my part. I
really didn't think this guy could be in the ring
with me. At that time, I had the prey's mentality,
as opposed to the predators. The second time, I thought I won 
and I didn't get the decision.

Q: You have the reputation as a puncher and
you landed solidly on Mayorga. Why couldn't you dent him? 
You even landed a combination when he stuck out his chin,
with his hands down.

VF: I was punching hard but I wasn't punching with leverage. 
I was throwing anger shots. You have to remember, in boxing
you don't have to hit a person hard to knock him out, 
you just have to hit him accurately. I was throwing hard shots, but
it was not really accurate. He was able to brace himself. 
He could see the intention in my face when I was about to 
throw a punch. So, as a fighter, you just brace for it. The shots that get
you are the shots you don't see. I think that's the reason he was able to stand up to my punches, because I was throwing a lot of hard shots, not
boxing shots, just hard, angry shots.

Q: Who are you working with, management
wise?
VF: With the help of HBO, I was able to get the
marquee fights and make a substantial amount of
money in the process. Once I learned the business, 
and I reached a certain stature; I didn't want to have the typical manager. I want to control my own career. If I make a mistake, I can live with that. 
So I created my own management and promotional company.
I'm not like Oscar De La Hoya, where my promotional company is pushed out there in the spotlight. Plus&#8230; he doesn't fight under his own
promotional banner; he fights under the Top Rank banner. I fight under my own banner. My company is not out in the front, but when it's
time to get paid, TRUST ME, my company handles all of the financial aspects.

Q: Time is precious. How much longer will you give this?
VF: I'm going to put in, like, three more years. I was really on
the tail end of retiring, but I wanted to make sure my legacy
was in tact. So, when I walk away from the sport, I can truly
walk away. I think it will take three more years for me to do
everything I want to do.


----------



## TheDemolitionDan

Great Q&A with Forrest, JG. This really stuck out to me: 

'For most people, they’ll see two fighters going toe-to-toe
and they’ll say, “That’s a great fight”. That’s not a great fight. It’s an action
fight, but not a great fight.'

I like that quote. That definitely rings true.


----------



## john garfield

TheDemolitionDan said:


> Great Q&A with Forrest, JG. This really stuck out to me:
> 
> 'For most people, they'll see two fighters going toe-to-toe
> and they'll say, "That's a great fight". That's not a great fight. It's an action
> fight, but not a great fight.'
> 
> I like that quote. That definitely rings true.


Forrest's final words still have me shaking my head -- so damn _prophetic_, TDD


----------



## TheDemolitionDan

john garfield said:


> Forrest's final words still have me shaking my head -- so damn _prophetic_, TDD


That really is unsettling. That's one of those, when you read it and know what happens next, leaves a chill down your spine.


----------



## john garfield

john garfield said:


> If you saw the bald-headed Damon Runyon trainer on "The Contender," that's Tommy Gallagher, my partner in a gym and an amateur boxing team 'n the closest thing to Popeye Doyle from the "FRENCH CONNECTION."
> 
> Gallagher's larger-than-life, profane, mean as a junk-yard dog, opinionated, impatient, very loud, crude, brutally honest, very loyal, a former undercover cop and laugh riot 24-hours-a-day. Being with his family is like an episode of the Ozbourne's.
> 
> Author William Saroyan put it best, describing his dad: "My father lived his life at the top of his lungs"...That's Tommy Gallagher.
> 
> Tommy was Donnie Lalonde's trainer when he defended his light heavy title at Caesar's Palace in Vegas against Sugar Ray Leonard. Gallagher asked me to join him.
> 
> Because Lalonde was the headliner, everybody in his entourage was given VIP treatment by the management of the hotel.
> 
> One evening I was in the lobby with Tommy, his family and some neighborhood friends. A very official looking guy in a three-piece suit came over: "Good evening, Mr. Gallagher.
> 
> "Speaking for the management of the hotel, I'd like to extend a warm welcome to you and all of your friends. Now, If you'll follow me, I'll take you to be seated at the Pointer Sisters' show."
> 
> Gallagher looked at me. His voice echoing through the marble lobby: "WHO IS THIS HALF-A-***?"


*Continuation*: *GALLAGHER CHALLENGES A BEAR*

When we went to the Pointer Sisters' show, the room was a semi-circle of tiered wooden benches - pews. No one had his own table. Everybody was bunched together.

We were a party of about 15, but all around us were families lookin' like they stepped out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

Gallagher was in top form, crackin' wise rapid-fire . Somebody asked him: "Tommy, did you ever fight out of the country as an amateur?"

As if trying to be heard over gym noise, Tommy shouted, "I was a young Irish Catholic kid and I never was no place. They asked me to fight for the U.S. team in Spain. So, when I got to Spain, I walked around&#8230;and there was, like, this little circus."

"There was a sign on one of the cages, and somebody told me it said: Anybody that could last a round with the bear would get $50. I never seen that much money...or a bear."

"So, I looked in the cage, and there's this big mop of fur on the floor. I figure: No problem; I'll knock this thing out."

"So, when I turned around to tell the guy I wanted to do it, the bear REACHED THROUGH THE BARS AND TRIED TO FUCK ME&#8230;IT'S A GOOD THING I WAS WEAR'N SHORTS!"

I crumpled to the floor laughin'. Families fled in horror.


----------



## Swarmer

JG, can you speak a bit about Freddie Steele and Fred Apostoli? Any stories?


----------



## john garfield

Swarmer said:


> JG, can you speak a bit about *Freddie Steele and Fred Apostoli*? Any stories?


Only write about guys I saw train 'n fight live, S. Steele 'n Apostoli were a touch before my time.


----------



## Flea Man

@john garfield What an honest interviewee Forrest was. R.I.P


----------



## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> @john garfield What an honest interviewee *Forrest* was. R.I.P


Forrest was a lovely, polite, straight-talkin' guy. Reminded me a lot of the Sugar Ray Robinson I knew as a kid -- same smile, about the same height 'n build.

Saddens me thinkin' how that vibrant young man's life ended.


----------



## Swarmer

john garfield said:


> Only write about guys I saw train 'n fight live, S. Steele 'n Apostoli were a touch before my time.


damn.

Anyting about Charles?


----------



## DonBoxer

john garfield said:


> *This is an eerie Q&A I did, considering what happened not long after *
> 
> You see champions on pay-per-view; they're
> larger-than-life mythic figures -- rock stars --
> towering over the Vegas Strip on plasma
> screens. A stage so exalted, it's only a dream for
> work-a-day fighters.
> 
> So, I couldn't square the demigod above the Strip
> with the familiar loose-limbed figure in drab
> sweats and a bloused white T-shirt moving
> easily around a heavy bag at the Wild Card Gym
> in Los Angeles - seemingly content with
> anonymity.
> 
> The more he moved, the fluid grace registered: Vernon Forrest.
> 
> After working out, he agreed
> to talk,
> 
> Q: I've never seen you here at Wild Card.
> What brings you to this particular gym?
> 
> VF: Wild Card Gym is a boxer's gym. The atmosphere,
> the smell, it's more like a real boxing gym. When I started back
> training, I wanted to start in a real boxing gym and
> that's Wild Card Gym.
> 
> Q: OK, you're back. Will it be at welter or
> junior middle, and is there any difference in
> your approach now?
> 
> VF: If I could still make 147, I would probably
> fight at 147lbs. But I probably have some of the
> worst eating habits of any elite athlete in the
> world. I'm addicted to junk food, candy, and all
> that stuff. One of the things that helped me be
> successful over the years is: I look at boxing as
> you have the predator and you have the prey.
> The guys coming up are the predators and the
> champions are the prey. What made me
> successful is that I always had a predator's
> mentality coming up, and even as a champion I
> had the predator's mentality. Once I became a
> little bit comfortable, that's when I started
> thinking like the prey. I forget there are a whole
> lot of predators our there trying to get me. So the
> main thing I have to do now that I'm moving up
> is get back that predator's mentality.
> 
> Q: I know all of the fights that you've had and don't see a mark on
> your face. Is it because of technique that you've avoided that?
> 
> VF: Absolutely! People forget that boxing is the art of hitting and not
> getting hit. For most people, they'll see two fighters going toe-to-toe
> and they'll say, "That's a great fight". That's not a great fight. It's an action
> fight, but not a great fight. I try not to get hit as much as possible. That's the true art.
> 
> Q: Is your defense based on reflexes or
> making the other guy do what you want him
> to and setting traps?
> 
> VF: Both. In boxing, to be a great fighter, you
> have to have great reflexes. But to control a
> fighter, you throw punches to make a fighter do
> want you want him to do. I'll setup a guy in the
> first round, just so I can get him in the fourth
> round. I learned that from watching old fighters
> like a Ray Robinson and a Henry Armstrong.
> When Robinson was setting a guy up, he might
> throw a few body shots, just so he can hit you up
> top with a left hook or right hand. He moves
> around giving you all types of misdirections to
> make you think he's interested in going one way,
> just so he can attack you the other way. That's
> what I do in my technical game. Setting a guy
> up. Setting traps. I can pull the trigger anytime I
> want to.
> 
> Q: You get full extension on all of your
> combos -- they're not shoe shines. Did you
> study Robinson's technique or is it natural?
> 
> VF: Well, Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter to
> walk the planet, so I've drawn a lot of inspiration
> from Ray. I've watched a lot of his fights. I've
> watched a lot of his moves. Some things he did
> were so fantastic -- so ahead of his time. There
> are some moves that I can't make, but I try to
> emulate Ray as much as possible.
> 
> Shoe Shining is just for show. You are not going
> to hit a guy with a five, six, or seven-punch
> combination, anyway&#8230; not a real world-class
> fighter, at least. I learned a long time ago&#8230;to
> make every punch count. To me, accuracy is
> very important. So, I'm not going to waste my
> time or energy throwing a shoe-shine, because
> the only thing that does is get the crowd going,
> but stiff jab, a stiff right hand or a stiff hook does
> the same thing. So, I'd rather focus on stiff,
> accurate punches then a shoeshine a combination,
> which won't incapacitate my opponent at all.
> 
> Q: With all your amateur and professional
> experience, what can a trainer teach you,
> and how do you know whose the right guy?
> 
> VF: That goes back to being a great trainer. The
> thing about trainers now-a-days is: Trainers don't
> make fighters no more. Trainers don't take a guy
> and raise him up from a kid and stay with that
> kid. Trainers don't do that anymore. Trainers get
> guys that are already established and say, "Well I
> made him a champion". No! You didn't make him
> a champion; he was a champion when you got
> him. You on for the ride. When I look at
> trainers, I look at guy who works with a certain
> caliber of guys. You'll know a good trainer five or
> ten minutes talking with them.
> 
> Q: What is it that you see or hear?
> 
> VF: It's an instinctual thing. You just know. If I'm
> hitting the bag, I have a trainer watching over me
> and he supposed to be watching what I do and
> pick out the mistakes that I'm making. So, I'll hit
> the bag and drop my left hand on purpose just to
> see if he picks it up. You know what some guys
> will say? "Good Job, Good Work." I'm making
> mistakes on purpose just to see if he'll pick it up.
> So, little things like. Some trainers are trainers.
> Some trainers are motivators. Some trainers are
> just good for television.
> 
> Q: Who's impressed you as a trainer?
> VF: I like Emmanuel Steward. He'll stick around
> on the ups and downs with guys. When you have
> guys like that, they are certified. They get the
> USDA stamp of approval. Buddy McGirt is one of
> the hottest trainers out there&#8230; and he's hot for a
> reason. You don't see Buddy taking guys from
> nothing and making them into something. But,
> he's taken the guys that might have slipped a
> little bit and put them back on the elite level
> again. I'd say Buddy is a great trainer. But for
> some reason, I've always been partial to the older
> guys. Trainers that have been around and have
> seen the different eras of boxing. Me, personally,
> I always like those types of guys. I admired guys
> like Eddie Futch. You can't put a dollar figure on
> experience. Boxing has evolved, and you have to
> keep up with the times. But I'd love to have
> someone like that in my corner.
> 
> Q: What drives you?
> 
> VF: They say champions are born and not made. I believe
> there is some truth in that. For me, I have this
> unquenchable thirst to be the best at what I do&#8230; to not to
> have someone say that there were better then me.
> So, if I get hit, I don't want to go down and give this guy
> the satisfaction of knowing that he put me down. I don't want
> to lose&#8230; to give a guy the satisfaction to say that he beat me. So that's
> the thing that drives me. That's the thing that's going to make me become champion again. That's the drive that's going to make me fight
> Mayorga again, and all of the best fighters out there
> in my weight class and beat those guys.
> 
> Q: You brought it up. You mentioned Mayorga.
> What happened in those fights?
> 
> VF: The first time, it was just errors on my part. I
> really didn't think this guy could be in the ring
> with me. At that time, I had the prey's mentality,
> as opposed to the predators. The second time, I thought I won
> and I didn't get the decision.
> 
> Q: You have the reputation as a puncher and
> you landed solidly on Mayorga. Why couldn't you dent him?
> You even landed a combination when he stuck out his chin,
> with his hands down.
> 
> VF: I was punching hard but I wasn't punching with leverage.
> I was throwing anger shots. You have to remember, in boxing
> you don't have to hit a person hard to knock him out,
> you just have to hit him accurately. I was throwing hard shots, but
> it was not really accurate. He was able to brace himself.
> He could see the intention in my face when I was about to
> throw a punch. So, as a fighter, you just brace for it. The shots that get
> you are the shots you don't see. I think that's the reason he was able to stand up to my punches, because I was throwing a lot of hard shots, not
> boxing shots, just hard, angry shots.
> 
> Q: Who are you working with, management
> wise?
> VF: With the help of HBO, I was able to get the
> marquee fights and make a substantial amount of
> money in the process. Once I learned the business,
> and I reached a certain stature; I didn't want to have the typical manager. I want to control my own career. If I make a mistake, I can live with that.
> So I created my own management and promotional company.
> I'm not like Oscar De La Hoya, where my promotional company is pushed out there in the spotlight. Plus&#8230; he doesn't fight under his own
> promotional banner; he fights under the Top Rank banner. I fight under my own banner. My company is not out in the front, but when it's
> time to get paid, TRUST ME, my company handles all of the financial aspects.
> 
> Q: Time is precious. How much longer will you give this?
> VF: I'm going to put in, like, three more years. I was really on
> the tail end of retiring, but I wanted to make sure my legacy
> was in tact. So, when I walk away from the sport, I can truly
> walk away. I think it will take three more years for me to do
> everything I want to do.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## john garfield

Swarmer said:


> damn.
> 
> Anyting about Charles?


Though I saw Ezzard fight several times in N.Y., S (at MSG, St.NIcks 'n Yankee Stadium) never got to see him train, which was my litmus test. It gave me--over a long period of time -- a better sense of what a guy was about.

Up close,strangely,even when Ez gained weight to heavy, he always struck me as a big middleweight. Maybe because of his relatively narrow shoulders 'n more supple muscles.

Loved his tight double-triple hooks.

My overriding memory of him, sadly,is sliding down the leg of journeyman Chicago heavy Johnny Holman, after being poleaxed with a right that NEVER would've hit him if time 'n too many fights didn't come due.


----------



## Swarmer

thanks john

and yeah i think charles was the master of combining the 1, 2, and 3 in different ways :good


----------



## john garfield

Swarmer said:


> thanks john
> 
> and yeah i think charles was the master of combining the 1, 2, and 3 in different ways :good


If you enjoy the section, S, get the word out, or this place may become a parking lot.


----------



## Wallet

Love this thread. :good


----------



## john garfield

Wallet said:


> Love this thread. :good


Tell your buds in Birmingham, W. Dyin' ta put everybody ringside.


----------



## john garfield

_*Pacquiao sparring session 'n Q&A prior to Marquez I. Including colorful comments from the gym.*_*
*
Like a cat, Manny Pacquiao sprung straight up at eye level with undefeated Art Simonyan and executed a perfect spinning back kick past his nose, just to remind him: "I have an answer for everything."

"Oohs!" and "Ahhs!" went up all over Wild Card from Pac's faithful for his Matrix-like response to Simonyan's transgression. Simonyan, in frustration, had playfully kicked Pac in the behind as the two headed back to their corners after sparring. Pac floored him at the end of round one - the first time in 229 fights - amateur and pro - and consistently put him at the end of a straight left for six rounds. Pacquiao and Simonyan both grinned, "Good work."

John Bray, Simonyan's head trainer for the last three years, said about the knockdown: "He got caught. No ifs ands or buts about it. All you got to be is not on for a moment against a guy like Manny Pacquiao and you're gonna get dropped."

That's the reality check that every fighter gets when they step in the ring with him. All activity stops to watch Pacquiao spar. Nobody but James Toney gets that respect. Photographers are poised on all sides. Everybody crowds around the ring apron - fans to enjoy, the fighters to learn, and the sparring partners, like Karhen Harutyunyan, that have been battered by Pacquiao, try to figure out this enigma. The only sound was the ticking of a single jump rope on the hardwood floor.

The sparring with Simonyan, who's 13-0-1 and a USBA Super Bantam Champion, followed the same scenario round after round, as it does with every fighter at this stage of Pacquiao's preparation for Juan Manuel Marquez.

Pacquiao, wearing purple Spiderman gloves and a "NO FEAR" T-shirt, sprang up and down, slipping Simonyan's jabs, to the right and left, closing the space between them like a video on fast forward -- chastening him, when appropriate, not to get reckless, with the occasional left stick flush in the face, confounding Simonyan and giving him some religion.

It was just such a flash left that put the Armenian on his back, confused and embarrassed at the end of the first round, shaking his head back to his corner&#8230;Bringing to mind the old joke: A trainer tells a dazed fighter, "He's not lay'n a glove on you!" Well, you better watch the ref," the fighter says, "Somebody's kick'n the hell out me. Well, it's Pacquioa, and he's doing it consistently to world-class fighters, not anonymous sparring partners.

Pacquiao's attack could be code-named: Shock and Surprise. The closer he gets to fight time, it becomes: Shock and Awe. He's like a high-voltage power line on a wet street, shooting sparks in every direction: Too dangerous to come near. He doesn't pummel, he electrocutes.

All of Pacquiao's punches are straight and funneled to a bull's-eye. He strikes from every corner of the compass. Except for the impact, they look like arm punches. To release some of his barely contained energy, Pacquiao digs to the body like a man who's found gold and has no shovel. He personifies the trainers' mantra: "Let your hands go."

But, it's Pacquiao's quickness - not just his hand speed - that's as much key to his domination as his firepower. 
Professional fighters become experts in time and space. They juggle equations that would boggle mathematicians. Years of daily practice and repetition have so finely calibrated the geometry between their opponents and incoming, there's little margin for error&#8230; None at the championship level.

Pacquiao scuttles those calculations like a Stealth Fighter. He's on the enemy before they know what's hit them, and the bombardment leaves the circuitry so devastated, future sorties are even easier and more damaging. But the comparison of Pacquioa to the Stealth Fighter is too surgical - too bloodless. He doesn't so much strike as carpet bomb.

Kahren Harutyunyan, who was sitting with his dad, gave his impressions of Pacquiao after the session:

Q: When you watch Manny, he's constantly bouncing up and down, but you don't see brilliant boxing moves. What is it that makes him so special?

KH: "That's what I was observing with my dad&#8230; Whenever he's not doing that speedy thing - when he's just trying to get some work done - he's, basically, not doing anything. He's just standing there. You don't see the basic elements: the jab, the hook&#8230;move around - slip the punches&#8230;But, when he starts going, his punches come at you like rain. So, when it starts raining&#8230;" he trailed off&#8230; and smiled.

Q: How do your sessions usually go with him?

KH: Sometimes I hold my own. I know I can hang in there with him. I acknowledge he's the only fighter among all the champions that I have sparred with&#8230; I can't find the key to him. He gives me a lot of trouble.

Q: Is it his left-handed style or his innate speed that makes him so difficult?

KH: It's his innate speed. Cause I spar with a lot of left-handed guys, and I'm used to it. Being left handed doesn't give me any problem&#8230;It's just his speed, his talent, footwork - plus, all that generates good power.

Q: What about the day you were injured?

KH: It was his first sparring session since he got back to training, and so he really took up the pace. I think he was excited being back; that's how it happened. _

Q: What else don't we notice about him?

KH: "&#8230;he has long arms, too&#8230;and he has long feet, too. He takes two steps; he goes from one corner to another corner. Also, his feints work really well. He has this tendency to pop his feet and throw the jab, so he tricks you.

Q: How would you compare him with the other featherweights?

KH: I don't think there's anybody to give trouble to Manny today. I don't think anybody couple of weights down or up that can create a problem for him in the ring.

Trainer Macka Foley, clearly impressed by Pacquiao's performance, enthused: "The first sparring partner, some Armenian kid, he busted his rib the first day he sparred. He was in great condition right from the get-go. He came to this country in super shape. 
He's so up for this fight, when we got this other guy - who's a 12-round fighter - just won this title - he beat the fuck out of him - so bad, the guy don't show up the next time. So, Freddie had to hire another guy. This other guy has the bitch bar on. A lot of fighters -- they're paying a sparring partner -- they won't even let him wear it because it might break the guy's hand. But, he let him wear it. He beat the fuck out of the guy -- almost had him going. In fact, I'm predicting the next time, he's gonna bust this guy up so bad, he's gonna discourage him, and the guy aint gonna come back."

Several days later at Wild Card, in front of a large Philippine flag, Pacquiao posed for the cover of Ring Magazine, wearing their Championship Belt for his stunning eleventh-round KO of Marco Antonio Barrera last year. While Jan Sanders snapped picture after picture, Frank Nazario - who also translated- pointed out that when the Philippine flag is hung with red on the top, it means the country is going to war.

After the shoot, trying to compete with the deafening chant of Team Pacquiao, "CALL 911! MARQUEZ IS IN TROUBLE!" - reminiscent of "Ali Bombaye!" in "The Rumble in the Jungle - I sat with Pacquiao.

Q: Manny, you're punishing very good fighters in your sparring, but you don't look like your throwing as hard as you can. When do you turn it up?

MP: The fight still not to May 8. I don't want to be over trained. Heavy training -- in a way -- but not full - not 100% yet. I'm pacing myself.

Q: How do you manage to get such power in your punches when you're not throwing hard?

MP: If you have speed, you have power. Even myself, when I see my fight on tape, I think I don't have power. It's look like no power my punches. But, I know in the ring, I have big power. It's a big surprise to my opponent.

Q: Do you think Marquez will be your stiffest test?

MP: I think, no. Marquez is the same to the other fighters who fought me, like Barrera. I think Barrera good than Marquez.

Watching Filipinos descending on the Wild Card Gym from all over L.A. -- cops, workers, young, old, kids cutting school, moms and dads with little children, just to get a glimpse of Pacquiao, get a picture with him&#8230;and seeing him shaking hands, musing a child's hair, accommodating everybody, clearly proud to be a Filipino and for the esteem of his countrymen; it's not hard to believe when Frank Nazario tells me: "There was a fight against Lucero, and there was a coup d'etat that was going on at that time, and they actually stopped because Manny was fighting. There was a two-hour delay on the coup, just for them to watch."

Pacquiao is not a creature of the media; he connects with the people, like Rocky Graziano in the 40's. He's not fighting for the Philippines&#8230; he is the Philippines&#8230;and the night of May 8, this son of General Santos City will be wearing his nation's colors with red at the top.


----------



## doug.ie

and he was a world flyweight champion 14 years ago!!....now mixing with the best welterweights in the world....amazing


----------



## Swarmer

I miss terminator, killer Manny. When you watch the defanged version we have today... It just doesnt excite me the way he used to.


----------



## Twelvey

Brilliant JG. I love watching pac in his earlier career when he was at his ferocious, buzz saw best. 
Some of the other stories in here I'd missed and they are fantastic. I loved the one about the doorman and the drunken jock :lol: 
I'll inbox a link to a few of my boxing fan mates as well. :good


----------



## Longcount

To stay up-to-date with the latest historical insights from the legendary John Garfield, please use the "subscribe to thread" feature.

You can do this by clicking on the "Thread Tools" in the bar underneath the thread title at the top of each page. You will then be able to opt to have updates via private message or by email on an instant, daily or monthly basis.

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?532-JG-RINGSIDE


----------



## wrimc

Cracking thread JG there are some real quotes for the ages in here. We need more characters in boxing like you.


----------



## MrSmall

Best poster on a boxing forum ever I believe, Internet legend.


----------



## Lunny

Great article, really great timing on the interview too. Just before the first Marquez fight, little did he know how much trouble Marquez would give him! 

Loved this sentence: Pacquiao digs to the body like a man who’s found gold and has no shovel :lol:


----------



## john garfield

MrSmall said:


> Best poster on a boxing forum ever I believe, Internet legend.


More important than anything, MS, wanna bring fans back to boxing -- reignite the flame


----------



## Robney

This is one cool thread JG! :good


----------



## Luf

john garfield said:


> _*Thought ya might enjoy a Pacquiao sparring session 'n Q&A prior to his first go with Marquez. Including colorful comments from the gym.*_*
> *
> Like a cat, Manny Pacquiao sprung straight up at eye level with undefeated Art Simonyan and executed a perfect spinning back kick past his nose, just to remind him: "I have an answer for everything."
> 
> "Oohs!" and "Ahhs!" went up all over Wild Card from Pac's faithful for his Matrix-like response to Simonyan's transgression. Simonyan, in frustration, had playfully kicked Pac in the behind as the two headed back to their corners after sparring. Pac floored him at the end of round one - the first time in 229 fights - amateur and pro - and consistently put him at the end of a straight left for six rounds. Pacquiao and Simonyan both grinned, "Good work."
> 
> John Bray, Simonyan's head trainer for the last three years, said about the knockdown: "He got caught. No ifs ands or buts about it. All you got to be is not on for a moment against a guy like Manny Pacquiao and you're gonna get dropped."
> 
> That's the reality check that every fighter gets when they step in the ring with him. All activity stops to watch Pacquiao spar. Nobody but James Toney gets that respect. Photographers are poised on all sides. Everybody crowds around the ring apron - fans to enjoy, the fighters to learn, and the sparring partners, like Karhen Harutyunyan, that have been battered by Pacquiao, try to figure out this enigma. The only sound was the ticking of a single jump rope on the hardwood floor.
> 
> The sparring with Simonyan, who's 13-0-1 and a USBA Super Bantam Champion, followed the same scenario round after round, as it does with every fighter at this stage of Pacquiao's preparation for Juan Manuel Marquez.
> 
> Pacquiao, wearing purple Spiderman gloves and a "NO FEAR" T-shirt, sprang up and down, slipping Simonyan's jabs, to the right and left, closing the space between them like a video on fast forward -- chastening him, when appropriate, not to get reckless, with the occasional left stick flush in the face, confounding Simonyan and giving him some religion.
> 
> It was just such a flash left that put the Armenian on his back, confused and embarrassed at the end of the first round, shaking his head back to his corner&#8230;Bringing to mind the old joke: A trainer tells a dazed fighter, "He's not lay'n a glove on you!" Well, you better watch the ref," the fighter says, "Somebody's kick'n the hell out me. Well, it's Pacquioa, and he's doing it consistently to world-class fighters, not anonymous sparring partners.
> 
> Pacquiao's attack could be code-named: Shock and Surprise. The closer he gets to fight time, it becomes: Shock and Awe. He's like a high-voltage power line on a wet street, shooting sparks in every direction: Too dangerous to come near. He doesn't pummel, he electrocutes.
> 
> All of Pacquiao's punches are straight and funneled to a bull's-eye. He strikes from every corner of the compass. Except for the impact, they look like arm punches. To release some of his barely contained energy, Pacquiao digs to the body like a man who's found gold and has no shovel. He personifies the trainers' mantra: "Let your hands go."
> 
> But, it's Pacquiao's quickness - not just his hand speed - that's as much key to his domination as his firepower.
> Professional fighters become experts in time and space. They juggle equations that would boggle mathematicians. Years of daily practice and repetition have so finely calibrated the geometry between their opponents and incoming, there's little margin for error&#8230; None at the championship level.
> 
> Pacquiao scuttles those calculations like a Stealth Fighter. He's on the enemy before they know what's hit them, and the bombardment leaves the circuitry so devastated, future sorties are even easier and more damaging. But the comparison of Pacquioa to the Stealth Fighter is too surgical - too bloodless. He doesn't so much strike as carpet bomb.
> 
> Kahren Harutyunyan, who was sitting with his dad, gave his impressions of Pacquiao after the session:
> 
> Q: When you watch Manny, he's constantly bouncing up and down, but you don't see brilliant boxing moves. What is it that makes him so special?
> 
> KH: "That's what I was observing with my dad&#8230; Whenever he's not doing that speedy thing - when he's just trying to get some work done - he's, basically, not doing anything. He's just standing there. You don't see the basic elements: the jab, the hook&#8230;move around - slip the punches&#8230;But, when he starts going, his punches come at you like rain. So, when it starts raining&#8230;" he trailed off&#8230; and smiled.
> 
> Q: How do your sessions usually go with him?
> 
> KH: Sometimes I hold my own. I know I can hang in there with him. I acknowledge he's the only fighter among all the champions that I have sparred with&#8230; I can't find the key to him. He gives me a lot of trouble.
> 
> Q: Is it his left-handed style or his innate speed that makes him so difficult?
> 
> KH: It's his innate speed. Cause I spar with a lot of left-handed guys, and I'm used to it. Being left handed doesn't give me any problem&#8230;It's just his speed, his talent, footwork - plus, all that generates good power.
> 
> Q: What about the day you were injured?
> 
> KH: It was his first sparring session since he got back to training, and so he really took up the pace. I think he was excited being back; that's how it happened. _
> 
> Q: What else don't we notice about him?
> 
> KH: "&#8230;he has long arms, too&#8230;and he has long feet, too. He takes two steps; he goes from one corner to another corner. Also, his feints work really well. He has this tendency to pop his feet and throw the jab, so he tricks you.
> 
> Q: How would you compare him with the other featherweights?
> 
> KH: I don't think there's anybody to give trouble to Manny today. I don't think anybody couple of weights down or up that can create a problem for him in the ring.
> 
> Trainer Macka Foley, clearly impressed by Pacquiao's performance, enthused: "The first sparring partner, some Armenian kid, he busted his rib the first day he sparred. He was in great condition right from the get-go. He came to this country in super shape.
> He's so up for this fight, when we got this other guy - who's a 12-round fighter - just won this title - he beat the fuck out of him - so bad, the guy don't show up the next time. So, Freddie had to hire another guy. This other guy has the bitch bar on. A lot of fighters -- they're paying a sparring partner -- they won't even let him wear it because it might break the guy's hand. But, he let him wear it. He beat the fuck out of the guy -- almost had him going. In fact, I'm predicting the next time, he's gonna bust this guy up so bad, he's gonna discourage him, and the guy aint gonna come back."
> 
> Several days later at Wild Card, in front of a large Philippine flag, Pacquiao posed for the cover of Ring Magazine, wearing their Championship Belt for his stunning eleventh-round KO of Marco Antonio Barrera last year. While Jan Sanders snapped picture after picture, Frank Nazario - who also translated- pointed out that when the Philippine flag is hung with red on the top, it means the country is going to war.
> 
> After the shoot, trying to compete with the deafening chant of Team Pacquiao, "CALL 911! MARQUEZ IS IN TROUBLE!" - reminiscent of "Ali Bombaye!" in "The Rumble in the Jungle - I sat with Pacquiao.
> 
> Q: Manny, you're punishing very good fighters in your sparring, but you don't look like your throwing as hard as you can. When do you turn it up?
> 
> MP: The fight still not to May 8. I don't want to be over trained. Heavy training -- in a way -- but not full - not 100% yet. I'm pacing myself.
> 
> Q: How do you manage to get such power in your punches when you're not throwing hard?
> 
> MP: If you have speed, you have power. Even myself, when I see my fight on tape, I think I don't have power. It's look like no power my punches. But, I know in the ring, I have big power. It's a big surprise to my opponent.
> 
> Q: Do you think Marquez will be your stiffest test?
> 
> MP: I think, no. Marquez is the same to the other fighters who fought me, like Barrera. I think Barrera good than Marquez.
> 
> Watching Filipinos descending on the Wild Card Gym from all over L.A. -- cops, workers, young, old, kids cutting school, moms and dads with little children, just to get a glimpse of Pacquiao, get a picture with him&#8230;and seeing him shaking hands, musing a child's hair, accommodating everybody, clearly proud to be a Filipino and for the esteem of his countrymen; it's not hard to believe when Frank Nazario tells me: "There was a fight against Lucero, and there was a coup d'etat that was going on at that time, and they actually stopped because Manny was fighting. There was a two-hour delay on the coup, just for them to watch."
> 
> Pacquiao is not a creature of the media; he connects with the people, like Rocky Graziano in the 40's. He's not fighting for the Philippines&#8230; he is the Philippines&#8230;and the night of May 8, this son of General Santos City will be wearing his nation's colors with red at the top.


top notch as always JG. Brilliant piece :good


----------



## john garfield

*A view of Charley Burley and how he might have fared against Sugar Ray Robinson*

When great fighters are discussed, invariably Charley Burley's name is mentioned. Yet few fans have ever seen him. I did.

It was only one fight, and it was on tape - some where's between '44 and '46, at the tail end of his career, so I don't know if it's the best indicator of how good he was ... but it probably gives some sense of his style.

His opponent was "Oakland" Billy Smith (later to become "Boardwalk" Billy Smith, when he courted Atlantic City fans) ... and I believe it was at light heavyweight. (Burley fought Smith twice, and won two decisions.)

The tape was in black-&-white - no sound, just titles to indicate the round numbers. But, for something dubbed many times, it was pretty clear &#8230; didn't have that quick-stutter look that old-time footage has shot at silent-camera speed.

First off, Burley didn't look more than a blown-up welter - not physically imposing, and certainly in comparison to Smith, who had Hagler muscles, was much taller, with a much longer wingspan, Burley looked over-matched.

Burley was clearly from an earlier era. His hair was slicked down and parted in the middle, like the pictures of Greb and Mickey Walker. His stance could have come right off the cover of the Police Gazette -- palms facing him, not sideways, as we're used to seeing now. It had that John L. Sullivan look.

The only thing missing to complete the picture were those skin-tight, knee-length trunks with the tied silk sash hanging down. Burley was almost an anachronism. Smith looked no different than a modern fighter.

Burley moved well and circled in the pocket, but his stance resembled Max Schmeling's against Joe Louis, with his head appearing to be forward but all his weight and body back on his right foot. He would sucker Smith into believing he was within range, to draw a right hand, then counter over the top.

Burley was a precision puncher but threw few of them; every one counted. In ten rounds, he never threw a combination - only one punch at a time. Never fought inside or against the ropes. He darted-in, punched and quickly held and smothered Smith.

Burley bided his time till he could fire that sniper-of-a-right, and rarely followed it with a left. His right was straight-as-a-level - seemed to have some pop ... and never missed. But, what was apparent after a few rounds - and this was against a fighter that looked like he had pretty good skills - Burley was un-hittable. He didn't even make elusive moves. He was just not touched by anything.

The only other fighter I've ever seen who had that same radar was Marcel Cerdan. When Pep and Whitaker did it, you wanted to applaud their skill. With Burley, he just wasn't being hit ... and he didn't avoid the punches. (It was the damnedest thing.)

He did everything he wanted, and either had lost his zest for battle or was such a consummate pro, he did what he had to do to win and not much more. 
Off this fight, I could see how Burley had the tools to win most all his fights, but he'd certainly not be a crowd-pleaser. He was strictly a tactician, and no fighter or manager would want any part of him.

It would be impossible to look good against Burley ... even if you won; and Burley's style wouldn't bring fans out. So I can understand why it was tough for him to get fights. Promoters wouldn't book him.

After viewing this fight, I think it wasn't so much Burley's color that held him back, but his lack of it in the ring.

Though I'm sure both Robinson and his people were leery of facing Burley, even in the twilight of his career, if I had to hazard a guess as to who would've prevailed in their primes, I'd say Robinson, two out of three. In a single fight, it's dicey. Burley was very cagey and might have been a tough nut for Robinson to crack &#8230; the first time.

But Robinson was far more diversified offensively; his combinations were very flashy and explosive, and would not only catch the eyes of the judges but excite the fans and affect the scoring. Burley was sweet but "Sugar" was sweeter.


----------



## Mandanda

Absolutely superb stuff JG, Thank you once again on both pieces :good.

Burley circled extremely well, Always kept the lead foot side on. Kept his opponent thinking from feints to offsetting the opponents attack with a step back. Very cute stuff, A man of very fine details so to speak.


----------



## Flea Man

@john garfield Loved the flashback to the times when Manny was staking his claim To P4P supremacy Out of Nowhere! Between the upset win over Sasakul (only possible in an era of 24 hour rehydration periods I must add!) and the late notice smashing of Ledwaba, Pac was good but not smashing down doors. Before Marquez the door was flying off in fear and he was obliterating houses!

Burley implemented the best gameplan he could against Smith. I agree with what you Sao about Burley; not only black and talented but a nightmare to look good against. He was always going to get it the hardest of The Murderers Row.

As for Smith, I'm sure you'll have seen the footage of him starching the brilliant Harold Johnson, like Burley, a brilliant boxer but also a natural light heavyweight!

Burley could fight men much bigger than him because, despite him being a natural 11 stone(ish) fighter (no light middleweight back then of course!) he was just a better fighter than most men north or south of his fighting weight.

Great era. Burley was brilliant at feinting his man out of position. And Oakland Billy Smith, as you and @Burt Brooks will know, was an absolute dangerman :yep


----------



## Teeto

john garfield said:


> *A view of Charley Burley and how he might have fared against Sugar Ray Robinson*
> 
> When great fighters are discussed, invariably Charley Burley's name is mentioned. Yet few fans have ever seen him. I did.
> 
> It was only one fight, and it was on tape - some where's between '44 and '46, at the tail end of his career, so I don't know if it's the best indicator of how good he was ... but it probably gives some sense of his style.
> 
> His opponent was "Oakland" Billy Smith (later to become "Boardwalk" Billy Smith, when he courted Atlantic City fans) ... and I believe it was at light heavyweight. (Burley fought Smith twice, and won two decisions.)
> 
> The tape was in black-&-white - no sound, just titles to indicate the round numbers. But, for something dubbed many times, it was pretty clear &#8230; didn't have that quick-stutter look that old-time footage has shot at silent-camera speed.
> 
> First off, Burley didn't look more than a blown-up welter - not physically imposing, and certainly in comparison to Smith, who had Hagler muscles, was much taller, with a much longer wingspan, Burley looked over-matched.
> 
> Burley was clearly from an earlier era. His hair was slicked down and parted in the middle, like the pictures of Greb and Mickey Walker. His stance could have come right off the cover of the Police Gazette -- palms facing him, not sideways, as we're used to seeing now. It had that John L. Sullivan look.
> 
> The only thing missing to complete the picture were those skin-tight, knee-length trunks with the tied silk sash hanging down. Burley was almost an anachronism. Smith looked no different than a modern fighter.
> 
> Burley moved well and circled in the pocket, but his stance resembled Max Schmeling's against Joe Louis, with his head appearing to be forward but all his weight and body back on his right foot. He would sucker Smith into believing he was within range, to draw a right hand, then counter over the top.
> 
> Burley was a precision puncher but threw few of them; every one counted. In ten rounds, he never threw a combination - only one punch at a time. Never fought inside or against the ropes. He darted-in, punched and quickly held and smothered Smith.
> 
> Burley bided his time till he could fire that sniper-of-a-right, and rarely followed it with a left. His right was straight-as-a-level - seemed to have some pop ... and never missed. But, what was apparent after a few rounds - and this was against a fighter that looked like he had pretty good skills - Burley was un-hittable. He didn't even make elusive moves. He was just not touched by anything.
> 
> The only other fighter I've ever seen who had that same radar was Marcel Cerdan. When Pep and Whitaker did it, you wanted to applaud their skill. With Burley, he just wasn't being hit ... and he didn't avoid the punches. (It was the damnedest thing.)
> 
> He did everything he wanted, and either had lost his zest for battle or was such a consummate pro, he did what he had to do to win and not much more.
> Off this fight, I could see how Burley had the tools to win most all his fights, but he'd certainly not be a crowd-pleaser. He was strictly a tactician, and no fighter or manager would want any part of him.
> 
> It would be impossible to look good against Burley ... even if you won; and Burley's style wouldn't bring fans out. So I can understand why it was tough for him to get fights. Promoters wouldn't book him.
> 
> After viewing this fight, I think it wasn't so much Burley's color that held him back, but his lack of it in the ring.
> 
> Though I'm sure both Robinson and his people were leery of facing Burley, even in the twilight of his career, if I had to hazard a guess as to who would've prevailed in their primes, I'd say Robinson, two out of three. In a single fight, it's dicey. Burley was very cagey and might have been a tough nut for Robinson to crack &#8230; the first time.
> 
> But Robinson was far more diversified offensively; his combinations were very flashy and explosive, and would not only catch the eyes of the judges but excite the fans and affect the scoring. Burley was sweet but "Sugar" was sweeter.


thanks man


----------



## dftaylor

Just shared this thread on Twitter. @john garfield - have you had any of this stuff published?


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> Just shared this thread on Twitter. @john garfield - have you had any of this stuff published?


Some've been published, d, but these are revised 'n updated.


----------



## dftaylor

john garfield said:


> Some've been published, d, but these are revised 'n updated.


I've got to say I'm enjoying them, particularly your eye for detail. I think my next trip to the US I'm going to do some gym scouting.


----------



## DrMo

I love this thread :good


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> I love this thread :good


Music to my ears, DM


----------



## GazOC

Great read on Burley, GF. Many thanks.


----------



## DrMo

john garfield said:


> Music to my ears, DM


Any tales to tell about Toney? Did you see him in LA much?

I'd love to hear anything you have, he always seemed a character & was an incredible talent


----------



## Flea Man

GazOC said:


> Great read on Burley, GF. Many thanks.


Who da' funk is GF?! :lol:


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> Any tales to tell about Toney? Did you see him in LA much?
> 
> I'd love to hear anything you have, he always seemed a character & was an incredible talent


Thanks for the Toney reminder, DM. Got some priceless ones.

They'd be rejected in a slapstick script -- too over the top

Stay tuned


----------



## antcull

Just read through the first few pages, enthralling stuff. :good

If you ever decide to write a book, I'll be first on the pre-order list. You have a great talent on bringing boxing history back to life. Terrific thread.


----------



## wrimc

This is great stuff JG its such easy reading! Makes me want to get out there and hang around some UK gyms dont think it would be quite the same :-(


----------



## john garfield

wrimc said:


> This is great stuff JG its such easy reading! *Makes me want to get out there and hang around some UK gyms *dont think it would be quite the same :-(


Do it, w. We need new blood in the game. Make JGR your first stop. I'll keep tryin' ta fireya-up


----------



## Dave

As promised JG, I put aside some quality time to go through the thread, telly off, house to myself, every tale is an enthralling read, literally the stuff of legends! I've spread the word on the facebooks and the twitters, I've an Uncle who would love it all, a very smart man who like the eastern block trainer you talked of, couldn't read and still can't really. 

Thanks JG, I'm Dave, and I subscribe to this thread.


----------



## DonBoxer

@john garfield not sure if this should be a PM but i thought other may be interested so here seemed the best place for it.

I was hoping to pick your brains about the fighter Bert Lytell, I have been re reading up on murderers row and looking at common opponents of some of the greats 40s fighters and I realised he is a fighter i know very little about . I know the mans record and who he fought and the general information available online but thought maybe you may know some stuff about him that i couldnt find, just any general trivia about him you may have heard or know of as i know he was a stillmans gym fighter.


----------



## john garfield

DonBoxer said:


> @john garfield not sure if this should be a PM but i thought other may be interested so here seemed the best place for it.
> 
> I was hoping to pick your brains about the fighter Bert Lytell, I have been re reading up on murderers row and looking at common opponents of some of the greats 40s fighters and I realised he is a fighter i know very little about . I know the mans record and who he fought and the general information available online but thought maybe you may know some stuff about him that i couldnt find, just any general trivia about him you may have heard or know of as i know he was a stillmans gym fighter.


That Lytell beat the Cocoa Kid speaks volumes, DB, far outweighing his many loses. He slipped through my fingers at Stillmans. Never got ta see him train. He was basically a road warrior, fought in the hinterlands. Missed his fights with Roy Williams and Sam Baroudi (who was killed in a bout with Ezzard Charles, arguably putting a damper on Ez's killer instinct.

So, for me, Lytell is much like he is to you: 'n intriguing fighter with great word-of-mouth about him.


----------



## john garfield

antcull said:


> Just read through the first few pages, enthralling stuff. :good
> 
> *If you ever decide to write a book, I'll be first on the pre-order list*. You have a great talent on bringing boxing history back to life. Terrific thread.


Have an idea, a, send me cash before I write the book


----------



## Longcount

JG you need to write a book. In all seriousness, what is stopping you?


----------



## DonBoxer

john garfield said:


> That Lytell beat the Cocoa Kid speaks volumes, DB, far outweighing his many loses. He slipped through my fingers at Stillmans. Never got ta see him train. He was basically a road warrior, fought in the hinterlands. Missed his fights with Roy Williams and Sam Baroudi (who was killed in a bout with Ezzard Charles, arguably putting a damper on Ez's killer instinct.
> 
> So, for me, Lytell is much like he is to you: 'n intriguing fighter with great word-of-mouth about him.


His wins over Cocoa Kid, Burley and Williams are his best. I remember that reading in one fight Williams was saved by the bell while the count was at 9, its a shame Lytell couldnt get that stoppage and become one of the very few men to stop Williams.

Looking at his boxrec makes it clear he traveled a lot, it seems he would go some where for a month have a few fights then move on.

I also read that Robinson and many others avoided him because he was small, mobile and southpaw.


----------



## john garfield

DonBoxer said:


> His wins over Cocoa Kid, Burley and Williams are his best. I remember that reading in one fight Williams was saved by the bell while the count was at 9, its a shame Lytell couldnt get that stoppage and become one of the very few men to stop Williams.
> 
> Looking at his boxrec makes it clear he traveled a lot, it seems he would go some where for a month have a few fights then move on.
> 
> *I also read that Robinson and many others avoided him because he was small, mobile and southpaw*.


Funny,DB,you asked _me_ about Lytell 'n just told me more than I knew.

Just occurred to me, a bud -- a first-class writer-researcher/historian, Springs Toledo, did an excellent piece about Lytell that may give you the answers you're looking for.

The link is below

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/14002-the-beast-of-stillmans-gym-part-6toledo


----------



## DonBoxer

john garfield said:


> Funny,DB,you asked _me_ about Lytell 'n just told me more than I knew.


:lol: I am just regurgitating what i have read, with you its usually experiences.

Robinson Lytell nearly happened a few times, the most money offered was a $15,000 guarantee but Robinson declined in favour of fighting Cerdan


----------



## john garfield

DonBoxer said:


> His wins over Cocoa Kid, Burley and Williams are his best. I remember that reading in one fight Williams was saved by the bell while the count was at 9, its a shame Lytell couldnt get that stoppage and become one of the very few men to stop Williams.
> 
> Looking at his boxrec makes it clear he traveled a lot, it seems he would go some where for a month have a few fights then move on.
> 
> I also read that Robinson and many others avoided him because he was small, mobile and southpaw.


Funny,DB,you asked me about Lytell 'n just told me more than I knew.

Just occurred to me, a bud -- a first-class writer-researcher/historian, Springs Toledo, did an excellent piece about Lytell that may give you the answers you're looking for.

The link is below

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/...m-part-6toledo


----------



## john garfield

Longcount said:


> *JG you need to write a book. In all seriousness, what is stopping you?*


Terrific! L, a guilt trip before the weekend


----------



## john garfield

_*James Toney profile before the John Ruiz title fight*_

James Toney's "Beautiful" - all 233 pounds on a 5'10" frame. A barrel-of-a-belly and loose flesh every place that's refused to shrink back with age and years of excess. But gliding around a ring, he's as much at home as Michael Phelps in the water - Beautiful.
"Beautiful's" the way grizzled trainers and veterans who've seen Archie Moore and Holman Williams describe him.

Round after round, he's as fluid as a middleweight from the waist down - not a hint that he's lugging an anvil since he KO'd Michael Nunn. His hands flow in a fight as easily as a pad drill.

Saturday, after 17 years and 74 fights, Toney brings his old- school wiles to Madison Square Garden - the dream of every boy who's ever put on gloves - to dethrone John Ruiz for his Don King-manufactured WBA heavyweight title.

It's not the Garden that was the Friday night habit when Joe Louis defended his single heavyweight crown and boxing got more ink than baseball and basketball.

Toney doesn't rattle in the ring and certainly shouldn't get jitters fighting for a title. This is his 16th time. He's won 15 alphabet soup belts as a pro.

Back in the day that Toney is rightfully associated with, any conjecturing about his chances against a younger, heavier, 6'2" heavyweight champion would have been laughable. The suggestion of a beefed-up Ray Robinson against Louis would have brought a homicide charge.

Toney's retro: Old school in the ring and all swagger out of it. Joe Walcott was an anomaly at 35. He was affectionately referred to as "grandpa" when he fought Rocky Marciano. Now sports fans don't blink at an athlete competing at the elite level in his late 30s.

George Foreman put that myth to rest, once and for all.

"Methuselah" always finds its way into the build-up for a Bernard Hopkins' fight. That gives way to admiration once the fight starts. His ability and 20-year-old physique is the only topic of discussion.

Boxing fans weaned on TV, instant gratification - sizzle - and the American obsession with a perfect V, are offended by Toney in their face: He's boastful, boorish, threatening, never PC, and makes no apologies for a gut. "Bring it, dawg, if you're man enough" written on his face. John L. Sullivan had that same look a100 years ago.

Substance is more important than surface, but it's largely fallen on deaf ears when Toney's mentioned. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Lightening speed, ferocity and an armor-piercing punch get ratings. But a master plying his trade . . . nothing . . . except for those who love The Sweet Science.

The ability to adapt, impose his will, relax in the eye of the hurricane, use only the energy necessary, and fight through the pain, doesn't register. The fans' ideal is Superman in tights blazing out of his corner till his man's leveled; or flourishes so eye-catching they demand Ole's. God help him if he's hit - it's evidence of weakness - or heaven-for-fend, loses; he's yesterday's news - road kill. If you're Toney, with appetites and volatility on the Richter scale, the haters are legion. But like the Dylan Thomas line, Toney will not "go gentle into the good night."

Recently at an unpublicized luncheon for retired boxers - journeymen and champs - some broken and vacant - largely forgotten and in need of an aid now, Toney took time with each - knew their names and about their fights. His tone was respectful, and as gentle as a father with an infant. Their eyes shone, not for the attention but for the man it came from. They knew the wheat from the chaff.

But for those who worship at the altar of the body beautiful, nothing Toney does can be any good. All they see is waste - a thug. Instead of a celebration for a sorely needed shot in the arm to boxing for his Fight of The Year performance, there's only fault to be found with his opposition.

It doesn't matter that he only had a few weeks to train for Ruiz; Toney won't shrink from a fight, in the ring or out. Some insist he spoils for it. Vince Lombardi said, "Winning is everything" With Toney, fighting is everything; he loves it. It's like a gambler's addiction. Those 20 feet inside the ring is where he lives. The presumption is: Hair trigger temper, he's dirty. He's too arrogant for that. He'll wreck a gym for a wrong word, but he never loses his cool in a fight. He's so sure he's going hunt his man down within the rules; he's never drawn in tit-for-tat. Even though Freddy Roach has urged him to get payback.

Roach's words carry some weight with Toney. Few can say that; he marches to his own drum. It's why he talks at the press, not to them. He only respects those who've walked the walk. He's seen the former 126-pound contender not give in to Parkinson's symptoms and stand up to the hardest cases in the gym. Toney trusts Roach's know-how, and that he'll get the truth.

All the talk about Toney's ability to take a punch, slip them, work on the inside, and his ring generalship, means nothing. Armchair fans see only a slow tub-a-lard. Montell Griffin easily out sped him - twice. It happened. No excuses. But when Barry Bonds whiffs twice; do they write him off. It's a clean slate Saturday.

There's no mystery about the scenario of the fight. Ruiz doesn't have Jones' hand or foot speed so he'll adopt Terry McGroom's blueprint: double and triple jab, step off to the right, jump in with his own right and clutch for dear life.

Toney will slip left and right, and allow Ruiz's momentum to work against him, falling back against the ropes and surgically pick him apart.

Toney hits the target of opportunity. He's a performance artist - works in the moment - not with set combinations, as Ruiz does. Fighters can't anticipate Toney. He's not an Earnie Shavers; he just keeps doing damage 'til the best conditioned can't take any more.

Until Ruiz runs out of juice about the sixth or seventh, he'll continue to do the same thing . . . That's all he can do; he's not equipped for a plan B or C. He's a trimmed-down, big-boned man who'll probably be 50 or 60 pounds heavier the day after he hangs 'em up. He had enough raw strength and determination to parley it in to being a heavyweight champion, and earning more than a construction job.

So to keep from wearing a hardhat, Ruiz will doggedly slog on.

For awhile, those double and triple jabs should slow Toney, though fall harmlessly over his right or left shoulder while he works his way in and times the jab. All Norman Stone's pleading will be useless. He's talking to a learned fighter, not a natural, like Toney. In the words of former batting champ "Wee" Willie Keeler: Toney "hits 'em where they ain't."

Once that's established, the handwriting's on the wall: only a question of how much of a beating Ruiz is willing to absorb . . . or how courageous Stone is with his charge.

It doesn't matter that the fight was taken on short notice, the years of dissipation, weight, injuries, and age. The bell rings; there's no excuses.

If Toney loses, every hater will come out like the Nazis have been vanquished: "I told you so!" If for one more day, "Lights Out" does what he's capable of, even casual fans will come to appreciate old school.


----------



## doug.ie

thats the best piece i have ever read on toney....makes me want to spend a few hours watching videos of him now


----------



## Michael

Thats a great description of Toney there John.

Toney is a unique character at the end of the day, the kind that makes boxing as colourful as it is. I remember Bernard Dunne had a few great stories about Toney at the wildcard, in the autobiography he released a few years ago. Made Toney seem like a bit of a nutter:lol:


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Thats a great description of Toney there John.
> 
> Toney is a unique character at the end of the day, the kind that makes boxing as colourful as it is. I remember Bernard Dunne had a few great stories about Toney at the wildcard, in the autobiography he released a few years ago. Made Toney seem like a bit of a nutter:lol:


Got ta know Bernard fairly well at Wild Card,S. A "milk bottle,or a scarecrow," is how more than one described him. Milk bottle or not, he was one Leprechaun who could CRACK! 'n wasn't averse to missing a hook 'n "accidentally" landing an elbow or the odd attitude-adjuster in the tropics. He was a likable rogue,who couldn't wait ta get back ta Dublin.

Have more than one story that confirms Bernard's opinion of JT


----------



## Flea Man

Any recollections of Luis Manuel Rodriguez @john garfield ? Or Emile Griffith?


----------



## Luf

john garfield said:


> _*James Toney profile before the John Ruiz title fight*_
> 
> James Toney's "Beautiful" - all 233 pounds on a 5'10" frame. A barrel-of-a-belly and loose flesh every place that's refused to shrink back with age and years of excess. But gliding around a ring, he's as much at home as Michael Phelps in the water - Beautiful.
> "Beautiful's" the way grizzled trainers and veterans who've seen Archie Moore and Holman Williams describe him.
> 
> Round after round, he's as fluid as a middleweight from the waist down - not a hint that he's lugging an anvil since he KO'd Michael Nunn. His hands flow in a fight as easily as a pad drill.
> 
> Saturday, after 17 years and 74 fights, Toney brings his old- school wiles to Madison Square Garden - the dream of every boy who's ever put on gloves - to dethrone John Ruiz for his Don King-manufactured WBA heavyweight title.
> 
> It's not the Garden that was the Friday night habit when Joe Louis defended his single heavyweight crown and boxing got more ink than baseball and basketball.
> 
> Toney doesn't rattle in the ring and certainly shouldn't get jitters fighting for a title. This is his 16th time. He's won 15 alphabet soup belts as a pro.
> 
> Back in the day that Toney is rightfully associated with, any conjecturing about his chances against a younger, heavier, 6'2" heavyweight champion would have been laughable. The suggestion of a beefed-up Ray Robinson against Louis would have brought a homicide charge.
> 
> Toney's retro: Old school in the ring and all swagger out of it. Joe Walcott was an anomaly at 35. He was affectionately referred to as "grandpa" when he fought Rocky Marciano. Now sports fans don't blink at an athlete competing at the elite level in his late 30s.
> 
> George Foreman put that myth to rest, once and for all.
> 
> "Methuselah" always finds its way into the build-up for a Bernard Hopkins' fight. That gives way to admiration once the fight starts. His ability and 20-year-old physique is the only topic of discussion.
> 
> Boxing fans weaned on TV, instant gratification - sizzle - and the American obsession with a perfect V, are offended by Toney in their face: He's boastful, boorish, threatening, never PC, and makes no apologies for a gut. "Bring it, dawg, if you're man enough" written on his face. John L. Sullivan had that same look a100 years ago.
> 
> Substance is more important than surface, but it's largely fallen on deaf ears when Toney's mentioned. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Lightening speed, ferocity and an armor-piercing punch get ratings. But a master plying his trade . . . nothing . . . except for those who love The Sweet Science.
> 
> The ability to adapt, impose his will, relax in the eye of the hurricane, use only the energy necessary, and fight through the pain, doesn't register. The fans' ideal is Superman in tights blazing out of his corner till his man's leveled; or flourishes so eye-catching they demand Ole's. God help him if he's hit - it's evidence of weakness - or heaven-for-fend, loses; he's yesterday's news - road kill. If you're Toney, with appetites and volatility on the Richter scale, the haters are legion. But like the Dylan Thomas line, Toney will not "go gentle into the good night."
> 
> Recently at an unpublicized luncheon for retired boxers - journeymen and champs - some broken and vacant - largely forgotten and in need of an aid now, Toney took time with each - knew their names and about their fights. His tone was respectful, and as gentle as a father with an infant. Their eyes shone, not for the attention but for the man it came from. They knew the wheat from the chaff.
> 
> But for those who worship at the altar of the body beautiful, nothing Toney does can be any good. All they see is waste - a thug. Instead of a celebration for a sorely needed shot in the arm to boxing for his Fight of The Year performance, there's only fault to be found with his opposition.
> 
> It doesn't matter that he only had a few weeks to train for Ruiz; Toney won't shrink from a fight, in the ring or out. Some insist he spoils for it. Vince Lombardi said, "Winning is everything" With Toney, fighting is everything; he loves it. It's like a gambler's addiction. Those 20 feet inside the ring is where he lives. The presumption is: Hair trigger temper, he's dirty. He's too arrogant for that. He'll wreck a gym for a wrong word, but he never loses his cool in a fight. He's so sure he's going hunt his man down within the rules; he's never drawn in tit-for-tat. Even though Freddy Roach has urged him to get payback.
> 
> Roach's words carry some weight with Toney. Few can say that; he marches to his own drum. It's why he talks at the press, not to them. He only respects those who've walked the walk. He's seen the former 126-pound contender not give in to Parkinson's symptoms and stand up to the hardest cases in the gym. Toney trusts Roach's know-how, and that he'll get the truth.
> 
> All the talk about Toney's ability to take a punch, slip them, work on the inside, and his ring generalship, means nothing. Armchair fans see only a slow tub-a-lard. Montell Griffin easily out sped him - twice. It happened. No excuses. But when Barry Bonds whiffs twice; do they write him off. It's a clean slate Saturday.
> 
> There's no mystery about the scenario of the fight. Ruiz doesn't have Jones' hand or foot speed so he'll adopt Terry McGroom's blueprint: double and triple jab, step off to the right, jump in with his own right and clutch for dear life.
> 
> Toney will slip left and right, and allow Ruiz's momentum to work against him, falling back against the ropes and surgically pick him apart.
> 
> Toney hits the target of opportunity. He's a performance artist - works in the moment - not with set combinations, as Ruiz does. Fighters can't anticipate Toney. He's not an Earnie Shavers; he just keeps doing damage 'til the best conditioned can't take any more.
> 
> Until Ruiz runs out of juice about the sixth or seventh, he'll continue to do the same thing . . . That's all he can do; he's not equipped for a plan B or C. He's a trimmed-down, big-boned man who'll probably be 50 or 60 pounds heavier the day after he hangs 'em up. He had enough raw strength and determination to parley it in to being a heavyweight champion, and earning more than a construction job.
> 
> So to keep from wearing a hardhat, Ruiz will doggedly slog on.
> 
> For awhile, those double and triple jabs should slow Toney, though fall harmlessly over his right or left shoulder while he works his way in and times the jab. All Norman Stone's pleading will be useless. He's talking to a learned fighter, not a natural, like Toney. In the words of former batting champ "Wee" Willie Keeler: Toney "hits 'em where they ain't."
> 
> Once that's established, the handwriting's on the wall: only a question of how much of a beating Ruiz is willing to absorb . . . or how courageous Stone is with his charge.
> 
> It doesn't matter that the fight was taken on short notice, the years of dissipation, weight, injuries, and age. The bell rings; there's no excuses.
> 
> If Toney loses, every hater will come out like the Nazis have been vanquished: "I told you so!" If for one more day, "Lights Out" does what he's capable of, even casual fans will come to appreciate old school.


Top notch stuff as always JG. they say pictures paint a thousand words, well you words paint a thousand pictures :good


----------



## john garfield

Touched, l.

Your simple heart-felt turnaround of an ol' chestnut reminds me of Sgt. Joe Louis -- THE BROWN BOMBER, in full uniform during WWII (ta rally support for U.S. troops) standing center ring in the ol' Garden, with only the overhead light to carve him against the blackness, while 18000 fans waited expectantly. His _mistaken_ twist of an ol' saw couldn't have been more moving: "We're gonna win because _we're on God's side_"


----------



## john garfield

lufcrazy said:


> Top notch stuff as always JG. they say pictures paint a thousand words, well you words paint a thousand pictures :good


Touched, l.

Your simple heart-felt turnaround of an ol' chestnut reminds me of Sgt. Joe Louis -- THE BROWN BOMBER, in full uniform during WWII (ta rally support for U.S. troops) standing center ring in the ol' Garden, with only the overhead light to carve him against the blackness, while 18000 fans waited expectantly. His mistaken twist of an ol' saw couldn't have been more moving: "We're gonna win because _we're on God's side_"


----------



## john garfield

Flea Man said:


> Any recollections of *Luis Manuel Rodriguez [*MENTION=174]john garfield[/MENTION] ? Or *Emile Griffith*?


lemme do a sorta word association thing with both guys,FM

Luis Manuel Rodrigues: Everybody in Miami Beach had to be lucky Rodrigues had such an amiable disposition. He lit-up a room entering -- was the Pied Piper for kids. But he also knew his nose preceded him into room. When a fan spoke to him, it was like a guy starin' at a girls boobs in a single's bar.

Had LMR been as sensitive as Cyrano, most of South Miami woulda been shishkabbed, plus he was years ahead of his time. He musta had Nike make special sneakers for him. He didn't move around the ring; he sprung up-'n-down like a kangaroo.

Emile Griffith: No living human could've had a narrower waist 'n wider shoulders, not ta mention shredded like an anatomy chart. As a welter, he looked 220 in a suit. 'n he took special pains drawin' attention to that V.

He had very fast hands, was a quick learner, and tireless in the gym, but he wasn't a natural like Toney. So affective as he was,he was robotic.


----------



## dftaylor

john garfield said:


> Got ta know Bernard fairly well at Wild Card,S. A "milk bottle,or a scarecrow," is how more than one described him. Milk bottle or not, he was one Leprechaun who could CRACK! 'n wasn't averse to missing a hook 'n "accidentally" landing an elbow or *the odd attitude-adjuster* in the tropics. He was a likable rogue,who couldn't wait ta get back ta Dublin.
> 
> Have more than one story that confirms Bernard's opinion of JT


:lol:


----------



## Flea Man

john garfield said:


> lemme do a sorta word association thing with both guys,FM
> 
> Luis Manuel Rodrigues: Everybody in Miami Beach had to be lucky Rodrigues had such an amiable disposition. He lit-up a room entering -- was the Pied Piper for kids. But he also knew his nose preceded him into room. When a fan spoke to him, it was like a guy starin' at a girls boobs in a single's bar.
> 
> Had LMR been as sensitive as Cyrano, most of South Miami woulda been shishkabbed, plus he was years ahead of his time. He musta had Nike make special sneakers for him. He didn't move around the ring; he sprung up-'n-down like a kangaroo.
> 
> Emile Griffith: No living human could've had a narrower waist 'n wider shoulders, not ta mention shredded like an anatomy chart. As a welter, he looked 220 in a suit. 'n he took special pains drawin' attention to that V.
> 
> He had very fast hands, was a quick learner, and tireless in the gym, but he wasn't a natural like Toney. So affective as he was,he was robotic.


Cheers :good And yes, LMR certainly bounced around the ring. Could get in and out of range very quickly.


----------



## Foreman Hook

Captivating read JG. :good


----------



## john garfield

More Pep or more Toney? Sing out!


----------



## john garfield

Kalasinn said:


> Captivating read JG. :good


Make it your first stop on CHB, K. Will have lots more for you.


----------



## dftaylor

john garfield said:


> More Pep or more Toney? Sing out!


I'd love some stories on Mosley - one of my favourite fighters. Any experience with Cotto?


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> I'd love some stories on Mosley - one of my favourite fighters. Any experience with Cotto?


Nothing earth shaking, d, but will be back with reflections on Mosley 'n Cotto


----------



## Michael

john garfield said:


> Got ta know Bernard fairly well at Wild Card,S. A "milk bottle,or a scarecrow," is how more than one described him. Milk bottle or not, he was one Leprechaun who could CRACK! 'n wasn't averse to missing a hook 'n "accidentally" landing an elbow or the odd attitude-adjuster in the tropics. He was a likable rogue,who couldn't wait ta get back ta Dublin.
> 
> *Have more than one story that confirms Bernard's opinion of JT*


:lol: Ill bet, care to share if its publishable?

On Dunne, when he finally did return to Dublin he was almost solely responsible for the Renaissance that occurred in Irish pro boxing during the mid to late 2000's. Id imagine that the time he spent in the wildcard helped him a lot. Loads of great sparring and being surrounded by the best trainer in the world.

Never he was a bit of a rough chap in the ring either till now:good


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> :lol: Ill bet, care to share if its publishable?
> 
> On Dunne, when he finally did return to Dublin he was almost solely responsible for the Renaissance that occurred in Irish pro boxing during the mid to late 2000's. Id imagine that the time he spent in the wildcard helped him a lot. Loads of great sparring and being surrounded by the best trainer in the world.
> 
> Never he was a bit of a rough chap in the ring either till now:good


Will be back with more JT, S.

Dunne told me one of his biggest edges in the amateurs was: Soon as he took off his robe, revealing his concentration camp-Casper the Ghost body his opponent discounted him as a piece-a-cake.


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> I'd love some stories on *Mosley* - one of my favourite fighters. Any experience with *Cotto*?


*REFLECTIONS ON MOSLEY AND COTTO*

Remember seeing Shane, as a lightweight, sparring at various gyms when he was largely unknown outside California, just lotsa positive word-of-mouth from gym rats.

He musta been like Mickey Mantle when the few privileged enough to see what a wunderkind he was knew he was sure-fire ATG. Shane was BEAUTIFUL! A veteran far beyond his years -- great balance, SRR combinations to the head 'n body 'n cracking power 'n leverage.

As an objective observer, with no skin in the game, I wanted him to stay at lightweight forever. Coulda been onea the greatest ever.

saw Cotto live at a press conference in vegas. He was on the undercard. Barely spoke a word -- looked wary, suspicious of every one. Coulda been self-conscious, not able to express himself in English. In a loose-fitting hipster suit, and his spit curl, he looked like every aspiring crooner in the '50s, or Mitch in the AMBOY DUKES.


----------



## dftaylor

john garfield said:


> Here's some reflections about Shane 'n Cotto.
> 
> Remember seeing Shane, as a lightweight, sparring at various gyms when he was largely unknown outside California, just lotsa positive word-of-mouth from gym rats.
> 
> He musta been like Mickey Mantle when the few privileged enough to see what a wunderkind he was knew he was sure-fire ATG. Shane was BEAUTIFUL! A veteran far beyond his years -- great balance, SRR combinations to the head 'n body 'n cracking power 'n leverage.
> 
> As an objective observer, with no skin in the game, I wanted him to stay at lightweight forever. Coulda been onea the greatest ever.
> 
> saw Cotto live at a press conference in vegas. He was on the undercard. Barely spoke a word -- looked wary, suspicious of every one. Coulda been self-conscious, not able to express himself in English. In a loose-fitting hipster suit, and his spit curl, he looked like every aspiring crooner in the '50s, or Mitch in the AMBOY DUKES.


Cotto had such a reputation for being grumpy and hard to read early on. In PR it counted against him, but he's loosened up as he's gotten older.

Shane is, IMO, one of the great wasted talents. Consider what he achieved, then think what he'd have been like with Bouie Fisher or Eddie Futch, guys who would have harnessed the raw talent and athletic gifts he had. He never could figure out how to deal with a jab or guys with better footwork, which was why Forrest, Oscar (the second time out), Winky, Cotto and Mayweather were able to bamboozle him.

Shane might never have beaten Winky (who was just too big for him), but he could have beaten Forrest, Oscar and Cotto. Mayweather, it's harder to say because Floyd's so rounded, but the fact is Shane got to Floyd early even though he was shot by then. And the old Mosley knew how to close the show.


----------



## DrMo

john garfield said:


> More Pep or more Toney? Sing out!


I'd love to hear some more about Toney, did you ever see Valero training in California?


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## john garfield

DrMo said:


> I'd love to hear some more about Toney, did you ever see Valero training in California?


Even though Valero was at Wild Card briefly, never got ta see him, DM.

Will put up more JT gold


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## Zico

Amazing stories JG. Was reminiscing about my Dad this morning whilst having a coffee and with Nat King Cole's Stardust playing in the background when I started reading Stillman's Gym, it was like being taken into a different world, thanks man, great read :good


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## john garfield

Zico said:


> Amazing stories JG. Was reminiscing about my Dad this morning whilst having a coffee and with Nat King Cole's Stardust playing in the background when I started reading Stillman's Gym, *it was like being taken into a different world*, thanks man, great read :good


Couldn't pay me a more meaningful compliment, Zico.

Keep comin' back. Like Jimmy Durante said,"Got a million of 'em"

How'dya learn about the sticky?


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## DonBoxer

I find myself trying not to read too much of this thread so i can save bits for later.Its like when i buy a new Xbox game and try to ration it out so i dont complete it all at once.


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## Zico

john garfield said:


> Couldn't pay me a more meaningful compliment, Zico.
> 
> Keep comin' back, Zico. Like Jimmy Durante said,"Got a million of 'em"
> 
> How'dya learn about the sticky?


This is my one and only thread subscription to date JG, I happenned upon this as it had the most recent post on the forum, looks like I was destined for a great read today. :good


----------



## Luf

john garfield said:


> Touched, l.
> 
> Your simple heart-felt turnaround of an ol' chestnut reminds me of Sgt. Joe Louis -- THE BROWN BOMBER, in full uniform during WWII (ta rally support for U.S. troops) standing center ring in the ol' Garden, with only the overhead light to carve him against the blackness, while 18000 fans waited expectantly. His mistaken twist of an ol' saw couldn't have been more moving: "We're gonna win because _we're on God's side_"


it's a well earned turnaroud JG, it's great reaading about your experiences on here.

That is a great story, the bomber was right, they did win :good


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## doug.ie

off topic JG...i am a HUGE jimmy durante fan.






sorry for going off topic...i just got excited when you mentioned durante

i'm sure you've seen joe palooka JG right ??










there's a great line from durante in that ^^...he's the manager of new champ joe palooka, a contenders* manager said to him "you're boy is no more a proper champ than you are an indian"....to which he replies.."i am an indian...i'm sitting pretty" 

*the contender was played by jimmy cagneys brother who looks exactly like a young jimmy cagney

.


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## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> off topic JG...i am a HUGE jimmy durante fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry for going off topic...i just got excited when you mentioned durante
> 
> i'm sure you've seen joe palooka JG right ??
> 
> http://images.a
> 
> there's a great line from durante in that ^^...he's the manager of new champ joe palooka, a contenders manager said to him "you're boy is no more a proper champ than you are an indian"....to which he replies.."i am an indian...i'm sitting pretty" :)
> 
> .[/QUOTE]
> 
> Durante's onea my all-time favorites,d. He was LET'S-GET-THE-PARTY-STARTED! from the moment he walked on...Grin as I think of him.
> 
> Did see the original Joe Palooka film. Was a gym rat from the moment I snuck in Stillmans. Devoured all things boxing. Tore apart the morning World/Telegram to gobble-up the Joe Palooka comic strip.


----------



## john garfield

*A TYPICAL JAMES TONEY KEYSTONE KOPS PRESS CONFERENCE*

Nostradamus would have a gimme with James Toney.

It's a medical problem: Knee-Jerk Zidane (a less pernicious strain of Duran-Tourette&#8230;sadly, incurable). But unlike ZZ, James only has flare-ups outside the ring. Canvas causes 47-minute remissions. For 23 hours, he's on earthquake watch -- a seismic event going someplace to happen.

The recent tremor was at the Palm restaurant in Los Angeles: a presser for Toney's WBC 12-round heavyweight eliminator on SHOWTIME CHAMPIONSHIP BOXING against Samuel "The Nigerian Nightmare" Peter on Sept. 2, tabbed NO RISK, NO REWARD, at STAPLES Center, just across the street.

Pressers are no-muss no-fuss: Get the information out. Above all, run smoothly; the pricey room's only booked for so long. Sure, there's supposed to be some salty quotes and face making for the morning editions (or nanoseconds later on the web) but nothing that changes the architecture of the building &#8230;a safe bet with Toney. He starts with irascible and brings new meaning to G Rated.

Plus, with his history, it's a re-hash -- just insert Peter's name. And, if you're under deadline, there's file-footage of Toney presser explosions. There's bound to be a 270-pounder; he flattens 'em for drill sparring at Wild Card&#8230; A little Photoshop&#8230;who's to notice the difference? But, the temptation to see the happening live is too much.

After entrées that would make it criminal to write anything negative about the promotion, the media took seats in the front section of the banquet room, waiting for the curtain to go up. The principals, Samuel Peter, manager Ivaylo Gotzev and co-promoter Dino Duva took their places, with Dan Goossen, Toney's promoter, at the podium, and reps from SHOWTIME and STAPLES Center in attendance. Only Toney was conspicuous by his absence - like the champ making the challenger wait.

Goossen, checking his watch and the door for any sign of Lights Out, soft-shoed, soliciting questions. One no-clue Teletubbie piped up with queries that were to reporting what Julie Louis-Dreyfus was to dancing on Seinfeld.

The Toney circus arrived not a second too soon.

James, in shades and a Guys-'n'-Dolls butterscotch pinstripe tricked-out with enough diamonds and platinum to warrant the presser at Ft. Knox, was the ringmaster of the parade. Hip-hop "Pomp and Circumstance " befitted his arrival. Let the games begin in his swagger, impatience on his face -- a contrail of aggression in his wake.

Team Toney, a Felliniesque-aggregate of family, sparring partners and acolytes (the only thing missing were the acrobats) filled the remainder of the five rows of folding chairs and clogged the doorway, raising the buzz to a GM assembly line. No one just over 5'9" makes a bigger entrance.

Samuel Peter, big as he is, in a pinstripe that would cover Dodger Stadium, was invisible. It was like sharing the screen with Steve McQueen.

How's it feel fighting in L.A., Dawg?" one of JT's Detroit homies shouted.

"L.A. gonna be Detroit for one night," Toney beamed. "D Block in the house!"

The usual Alphonse 'n' Gaston ensued -- each side praising the other for taking the fight. We're not going to sink to the level of the others you've seen. Toney drummed on the table with his fingers.

When Peter mumbled in the cadence of South East Nigeria in response to how he'll do against Toney, a reporter blurted out, "I don't understand?" Toney crooked an eye, "He said he's gonna beat me. Next question!" (Redd Foxx couldn't have thrown it away better.) With every utterance, he strutted sitting down. 
He doesn't answer questions; he suffers them. It took more endurance to sit there than do 12 rounds.

The sniping picked up slowly, with Toney jabbing over Duva's remarks -- the needle sharper each time from both. Toney, shaking his head, s******************************ing - exasperated, "Talkin' about me like he gonna run through me like Swiss cheese." It was Groundhog Day for the 77th time. Caltech was warning a Magnitude 6.5.

Then, in a coup of statesmanship, Duva put a ten-ton straw on the camel's back.

With an eye to the box-office, after giving Toney faint praise for his skills; he called him "dumb" for taking the match. 
_Russian roulette with a live round_.

Warming to the task, Duva put sinew in it the second time, leaning closer to Toney from the podium.

"You talk a lot for a guy that's not getting in the ring, old man. You sound like you want to fight me," Toney spat.

From Goossen's swivel-around and lynch'm sentiments from Tonyites, Duva realized he may have stepped over the line and tried to smooth things. Looking at the mother of James's children - doing his best Rodney King, 'Why can't we all just get along?' Duva explained, "I didn't mean you when I called James dumb&#8230;" _Why isn't he patching things up in Lebanon? _

A shouting match between Toney, Duva and Gotzev escalated from predictable to out-of-control (which fits Toney better then "Lights Out"). Photogs scampered for angles. We were at DEFCON 3 - no Ali wink and nudge. (The tip-off to a faux show: the guy that goes berserk is usually in sweats, not an ad for Jacob The Jeweler.)

Adding fuel to the fire, a front-runner with the Toney hoards called-out Duva to bet on his man. "Pick your poison!" Toney snapped. 
He wanted at Duva and Gotzev, ripping off his jacket that cost more to tailor then most cars. He drew no distinction between Godzilla and milquetoast: a slight means being rendered limb-from-limb and ground to powder.

It took all of the king's horses and all of the king's men to restrain him; he was bucking like a Brahman. Goossen's eyes rolled, "Here we go again." Toney went from zero-to-Vesuvius, flinging a glass of water at Duva and Gotzev, spraying Goossen -- acting as honest broker -- and Peter, while he struggled to break free and disembowel the manager and promoter, knighted "Dumb and Dumber," by Goossen.

With a wall of muscle shielding them, Duva and Gotzev, (now looking like an enraged flamenco dancer) berated Toney at blood-oath intensity. (Shades of Johnny Friendly taunting Terry Malloy in ON THE WATERFRONT.) Their number three heavyweight contender -- damp suit, not withstanding -- didn't stampede to their defense. This wasn't his arena. "I do not do my fighting at a press conference," he said. "I do my fighting in the ring." (Succinct, if a little stilted, like his style.)

It may portend for the bout. We were in a no-man's land - no rules. Though Peter can separate a man from his senses (and his head from his body) with either hand, if it wasn't for his dam-busting power, he'd be one more lumbering brute drilled in a gym to box -- a learned fighter, a manager's hope to cash-in on heavyweight money, not a fast-twitch improviser like Toney.

On TV the scuffle's a giggle before the weather report. At Ground Zero, it's a bar brawl -- large bodies blurring by. The chaos is not the worry; it's the collateral damage.

While Toney was being bulldogged away by his camp, kicking, cursing and frothing, Goossen, ever the trooper in the midst of shot and shell, kept rattling-off attractive seating packages to the few that weren't caught up in the tsunami carrying Toney out of the room and down the staircase past wide-eyed business-lunchers and out the front door.

On the way out, some spit-balled precautions for James' next presser: maybe a Hannibal Lecter rig, or shackled like Sampson. Toney has a Bobby Knight-affect on questioners.

Jim Hill, the CBS Sports TV anchor, still nimble as his NFL cornerback days, kept a mic in Toney's face, dancing backwards down the stairs while The Bulls of Pamplona were thundering.

Out on the sidewalk, Toney, ringed by press poking mics like banderoles, bellowed and paced with the hell he was going to visit on Duva and Gotzev when they came out. All of it unintelligible, as if scrunched by a tight headgear.

Toney was at home: center stage - the man, roiling and boiling for a fight, as large and animated as the two-story figure of Kobe Bryant plastered on the side of the Palm.

Fed up with waiting for Gotzev and Duva to exit, Toney's claque left en mass like a swarm of killer bees, angrily buzzing.

The chickens eventually come home to roost. All of James's excesses will one day come due. But for one night in September, before injury and age claim him, get a glimpse of old school.


----------



## DrMo

Thanks fantastic JG, I love Toney :lol: Any sparring tales/gym wars you can share?

Ive heard his press conferences with Barkley got very heated but I cant find footage anywhere


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> Thanks fantastic JG, I love Toney :lol: *Any sparring tales/gym wars you can share?*
> 
> Ive heard his press conferences with Barkley got very heated but I cant find footage anywhere


Was on the ring apron at Wild Card shooting video when JT had the infamous sparring session with Danny Green.

Will look-over my notes ta put somethin' up, DM.,plus anything else I have about JT sparring.


----------



## doug.ie

JG...you ever come across cus d'amato much in your time ?


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> JG...you ever come across cus d'amato much in your time ?


Only saw Cus workin' with Patterson at the Gramercy Gym, but never met or spoke to him


----------



## Chatty

Just got through the first page (40 posts) and this is a quality thread. JG is a legend and its great to have him over here and is well deserving of his own thread. My time should be freed up over the next week so I look forward to working my way through the whole thread and reading some quality stories and posts. keep it up.


----------



## Del Boy

This is fantastic John, " Once, Joe Louis apologized for backing into me while I was hitting a heavy bag." That is an amazing little memory to have I would never forget that. Your a lucky man to have been in such company "Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Graziano, Billy Graham, Beau Jack, Ike Williams, Kid Gavilan, Bo Bo Olson, Bob Montgomery and Marcel Cerdan," not to mention Ray arcel and Charley Goldman. 

Thank you for sharing this with all of usv:good

:clap:


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> This is fantastic John, " Once, Joe Louis apologized for backing into me while I was hitting a heavy bag." That is an amazing little memory to have I would never forget that. Your a lucky man to have been in such company "Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Graziano, Billy Graham, Beau Jack, Ike Williams, Kid Gavilan, Bo Bo Olson, Bob Montgomery and Marcel Cerdan," not to mention Ray arcel and Charley Goldman.
> 
> Thank you for *sharing this* with all of usv:good
> 
> :clap:


That's all I wanna do, DB, have you experience it as I did. There are some more on the thread that'll putya ringside,too.


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> *This is for those that wanna know what Roberto Duran's really like:*
> 
> When Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center.
> 
> It was summertime, and sweltering. Every Latino worker in the area-- and their families -- watched their hero train at lunchtime.
> 
> The gym was a steam room -- jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. They pressed so close Duran barely had room for floor exercises. When he was done, he jumped in the ring to shadow box.
> 
> Spanning what looked like a crowded subway car, you could see chests swell - faces beaming with pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood at the ring apron, while their little ones looked up saucer-eyed at this God.
> 
> In the midst of this outpouring of love, somebody in the back -- unbelievably! -- kept shouting at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!
> 
> Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!"
> 
> Finally, Duran fixed him with a glare, stretched as far over the ropes as he could -- just above the glowing faces of mothers and toddlers -- and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY COCK!"


:rofl


----------



## NoMas

Been busy last few days, just caught up! Keep em coming JG :jjj


----------



## john garfield

*RINGSIDE PACQUIAO-MARQUEZ I*

In an instant everything a fight fan lives for was happening - magnificent doesn't begin to cover it.

A near-capacity crowd at the MGM Grand Arena in Las Vegas was one roar, rocking the building, threatening to shake loose the paint from the walls. Manny Pacquiao, in little more than a minute into the first round had dropped Juan Manuel Marquez with a left that most of the crowd and Marquez didn't see.

Two more times Marquez hit the canvas from the same left - no one could believe their eyes -- leaving Mexico's most finely-schooled fighter shocked, hurt and steamrolled the way Barrera had been the year before.

There was so much tension in the air, on the first knockdown; I leaped to my feet before I knew it -- papers, coffee cups flying in all directions in the press section. Jaded beat reporters as wide-eyed and yelling as loudly as fans -- all thoughts of note-taking forgotten. The shouting in my ears was mine. I hollered myself hoarse against a decibel level that threatened to blow out the walls.

Juan Manuel Marquez was down a third time, looking like Jack Johnson shielding his eyes from the sun against Jess Willard in Havana. Marquez was dead - out! There was no way he would rise. But, like the Phoenix&#8230;he was on his feet by eight. We would go home early&#8230; but hardly disappointed, and with a memory that would last a lifetime - we saw it live! Everything that Pacquio showed in sparring leading up to this moment wasn't exaggerated. Mexican fans were as stunned as Marquez.

Pacquiao struck like a mongoose, with numbing power. He would now be the hottest star in the sport -- Murad Muhammad's crowning jewel. This beaming cherub, in two short years, has done more for the Philippines than all the ad dollars in their treasury. If he finished the demolition in round two, his welcome in Manila would make the Krakatoa blast seem a blip on seismographs.

I hadn't seen euphoria like this since VJ Day on Times Square. It was America seeing Joe Louis knock Max Schmeling out in the return. The deafening sound in the MGM was the equal of the 60,000 at Yankee Stadium that night.

Murad had delivered what he promised, an exciting fight and an exciting fighter in Pacquoia, who may be the world's answer to an energy crisis. The huge Filipino contingent was ecstatic. Nobody was left with a voice or his hearing after round one.

Marquez made his way back to his corner -- his nose pulp and bleeding, his eyes glazed. Nacho Beristain and his team did battlefield-triage in the one-minute rest. At the bell, with Beristain's aid and calm, Marquez rose like Lazarus to face sure devastation and loss of his place among Mexico's legends.

Referee Joe Cortez had to be very alert. Marquez could be too brave for his own good. The din was indescribable and hadn't diminished in the rest period. This had to be illegal; anything this much of a high had to be addictive.

Mexican fans were in shock. Marquez was in shock&#8230;and pain. Everybody was delirious.

Marquez was on stiff legs, his nose a red smear; he looked like he'd been mugged, but his hands were up the way Beristain had drilled him since he was 12-years-old. Not a hint of lost confidence or poise.

Pacquiao was loosed from his corner for round two by Roach to finish the job.

But Marquez, by instinct, fended Pacquiao off with a right held high, moving clockwise warily around the ring, keeping his defense solid, trying to gather himself.

Amazingly, his technique and resolve kept him upright under Pac's furious attempts to get home with that left again. Marquez not only remained conscious but, impossibly, with ring generalship and strategic jabs, earned the round on this card. The corpse was coming to life.

Round after round it continued: Packman almost leaping in, foot-feinting, attacking, and pressing -- a force field preceding him. But, slowly, Marquez was no longer fighting a delaying action. All the short-circuited synapses and muscle connections were firing up and he was boxing the way the handicappers had expected -- why no other featherweight or manager wanted any part of him. The only thing he was missing was a suit of lights and the accompanying "Ole's!" from the crowd as he avoided Pacquiao's bull rushes and placed banderoles of his own.

Marquez had skill, balance, punching power, and he was mixing up his combinations. He not only had the tools but what every great fighter must have: character and Corazon.

The sleek and aquiline Marquez (with delicate hands) who stood on the scale at the weigh-in - almost a greyhound in profile - now looked more Yory "Boy" Campos than concert pianist. He was Tony Zale with finesse. He didn't just slog on, he ate Manny's punches when he had to, but now he wasn't passive-aggressive.

His counters carried heft, and he was getting full extension on his punches, like the solar plexus blow that took the soul from Robbie Peden. But the threat of Pacquiao's left was always in the air, like the dread of an intruder in the middle of the night.

Marquez was a thoroughbred, a credit to his country and to his sport&#8230; But, he did strike low many times -- once in the tropics, without a single warning from Cortez. But to this observer, it didn't appear intentional, like a Hopkins' street intimidator. Which is little consolation when you're hit there.

Manny bounced and bobbed and herky-jerked, left and right, trying to find a way in to this riddle that taunted and stabbed him and refused to fall.

Even though Pac seemed to land several lefts with the same impact that started all the trouble, Marquez didn't wobble and continued to circle and counter with more prolific combinations. By the fifth round, he had Pacquiao's right eye cut.

Pacquiao is wired to go forward. So, though his reflexes were quick enough to pull his head away from Marquez's lead right hands, the second and third ones found him, diffused of power; but Pac leaned so far back, he had to struggle to keep his balance and re-group, which didn't look good to the judges.

By round eight, Marquez wasn't staving off the inevitable; he was winning the fight. Mexicans all stood a lot taller seeing their man come from the grave and make this movie-drama come to life.

Pacquiao's face was reddening and beginning to swell-- his right eye, cut and bleeding. So, there they were: A battle of the titans, heavyweights in featherweight bodies. No hyperbole would do justice to this battle of wills. Pacquiao had wreaked havoc on his first sortie, but Marquez, like Germany after world war two, came back from the ashes stronger than ever.

Usually there are ebbs and flows in crowd noise. In this one, the needle was at the limit. It topped the meter even between rounds, and when there was a spike in the action, it went off the charts.

Marquez was the consummate boxer-puncher. He was conducting a clinic for all but a few rounds. To fight at this level, and to keep his composure after everything in his brain must have been scuttled speaks to Marquez's high-altitude training, Beristain guidance and what it means to be an Aztec warrior.

What Pacquiao lacked in fundamentals, he made up for in intensity. He didn't have the arsenal; he had the equalizer - 126-pound Earnie Shavers. Pac's prayer was a left hand. And every heart was stopped waiting for him to do it again. Mexicans in fear; Filipinos in hope. One lapse in Marquez's concentration and the first round would be re-visited. And, Marquez had to do that after surviving a train wreck.

There was no need at the final bell for Michael Buffer to say, "let's hear it for these two warriors!" Over the ear-shattering sound you could make out the overlapping drum of "Marquez! Marquez! Pacquoa! Pacquiao! " We held our breath while the cards were tallied. Nations waited to rejoice, and fighters and their camps to hear what months of sacrifice and pain-beyond-endurance had earned them.

A raucous cheer went up from the Pacquiao side when judge John Stewart's 115-110 was read for him. Joy&#8230;and relief, came from the Marquez side when Guy Jutras' 115-110 was read for him. From the brink of annihilation, Marquez had a real chance.

There was stunned silence when Burt Clements' 113-113 draw was announced. No boos, or thrown beer bottles, just total deflation for the fighters, their camps and the crowd. It just wouldn't sink in. All the explosions ended with a whimper. It wasn't unjust&#8230; just unthinkable.

But there was no riot. Volatile ethnic rivalries have combusted over less. Even the most partial had grudging respect for the other side. There was trash talking on both sides by the soccer-hooligan element leading up to the match, but Pacquiao and Marquez remained above it.

On this card, Pac won it by a shade, 114-113. The 10-6 round made the difference. It was hard to erase the vision of Marquez laying in ruin in the wake of Pac's first-round attack, in spite of Marquez's miraculous recovery, flawless skills and drawing-board tactics.


----------



## doug.ie

what a great read over my morning coffee to set me up for the day at work JG.
i'll always think that mayweathers performance against marquez is (another) testament to how great he is, whatever about the weights in that fight..especially when you consider the last marquez v pacquaio fight


----------



## dftaylor

doug.ie said:


> what a great read over my morning coffee to set me up for the day at work JG.
> i'll always think that mayweathers performance against marquez is (another) testament to how great he is, whatever about the weights in that fight..especially when you consider the last marquez v pacquaio fight


Mayweather, imo, deserves no credit for that fight.


----------



## doug.ie

dftaylor said:


> Mayweather, imo, deserves no credit for that fight.


based on the weight ??

if i dont reply its only cause i'm shooting off to work now.


----------



## Del Boy

Another great read JG :good I can see myself visiting this thread a lot. Any plans for the next write up?


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> Another great read JG :good I can see myself visiting this thread a lot. Any plans for the next write up?


Weighing it now, DB. Since you're from Ireland, maybe a Bernard Dunne recollection.


----------



## doug.ie

JG...the dunne v cordoba battle was the best night of live boxing i was ever at in my life...you'd have loved it brother......atmosphere was amazing.


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> JG...the dunne v cordoba battle was the best night of live boxing i was ever at in my life...you'd have loved it brother......atmosphere was amazing.


Only got ta see it on TV, d. It was THRILLING!-- a ROCKY ending in real life. Shouted YES!! YES!! YES!, till I was hoarse.

'specially meaningful, since I got to know Bernard in L.A, and heard him talk often 'bout what it would mean being champion.


----------



## Del Boy

Now that would be a great one to here your account of. The single greatest night of boxing for the irish people in my days as a fan. I had the pleasure/ misfortunbe of being near ringside when Dunne bravely lost the title to Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym. The atmoshere that was electric until the final bell in 3rd when i remember thousands of people walking heartbroken from the O2


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> Now that would be a great one to here your account of. The single greatest night of boxing for the irish people in my days as a fan. I had the pleasure/ misfortunbe of being near ringside when Dunne bravely lost the title to Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym. The atmoshere that was electric until the final bell in 3rd when i remember thousands of people walking heartbroken from the O2


Was zonked-outta--my-brain by the Cordoba fight, DB, but feel I can't do justice to a story (a profile or Q&A) 'less I'm there live. So, I only write about fights I've been at.

But, I do have some Bernard Dunne nuggets -- that shows a whole different side of Bernard -- that I can put up.


----------



## doug.ie

Del Boy said:


> Now that would be a great one to here your account of. The single greatest night of boxing for the irish people in my days as a fan. I had the pleasure/ misfortunbe of being near ringside when Dunne bravely lost the title to Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym. The atmoshere that was electric until the final bell in 3rd when i remember thousands of people walking heartbroken from the O2


was there too...and near the ring too...poonsawat punches sounded like a hammer


----------



## Luf

this thread has become staple viewing for any boxing fan. fantastic effort jg


----------



## john garfield

lufcrazy said:


> this thread has become staple viewing for any boxing fan. fantastic effort jg


Hope you'll bring your buds,l, Maybe we can convert some MMA addicts.


----------



## Del Boy

He was anaimal and to do that to a national hero in front of such a hostile crowd is a great achievement. As well as Dunne me and the guys were already on a low when as our club mate Jamie power lost to micheal Sweaney that night too


----------



## doug.ie

dftaylor said:


> Mayweather, imo, deserves no credit for that fight.


also fella...would you give mayweather credit if he beat pacquaio...if they ever meet ??


----------



## Lunny

Great piece on PAc-Marquez 1. Loved that fight. I had it for Marquez just.


----------



## dftaylor

doug.ie said:


> also fella...would you give mayweather credit if he beat pacquaio...if they ever meet ??


Of course I would. The Marquez win for Mayweather is tainted by three things:

1) failure to met the catchweight
2) the fact Mayweather is naturally a lot bigger than Marquez and has a style that would favour him even at a closer natural weight
3) Mayweather's complete disinterest in stopping a vastly over-matched opponent.

I used to think Manny would beat Floyd through activity after stinging him early on... then Mayweather looked great hammering Ortiz and Manny looked iffy two fights in a row. Then Floyd looked very human against Cotto and Manny looked better against Bradley. So it's hard to choose, but I'd favour Floyd.


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> Of course I would. The Marquez win for Mayweather is tainted by three things:
> 
> 1) failure to met the catchweight
> 2) the fact Mayweather is naturally a lot bigger than Marquez and has a style that would favour him even at a closer natural weight
> 3) Mayweather's complete disinterest in stopping a vastly over-matched opponent.
> 
> I used to think Manny would beat Floyd through activity after stinging him early on... then Mayweather looked great hammering Ortiz and Manny looked iffy two fights in a row. Then Floyd looked very human against Cotto and Manny looked better against Bradley. So it's hard to choose, but I'd favour Floyd.


Thinkya just want some'a Floyd's flash-cash in Vegas, d. Will send your thumbs-up to him in the slammer.


----------



## john garfield

*THE ULTIMATE BOXING FAN*

Boxing's unlikely to ever be what it was in its heyday - too much extreme-sport competition. Shaun White's this era's Ray Robinson.

Nothing's forever: the dinosaurs learned that. The writing's been on the wall for decades. But boxing hangs in like a fighter on the ropes.

All the P.T. Barnums have razzle-dazzled'em to lure the gym rats back: Ring walks to rival Ceasars' entrance, more fireworks than a KISS concert, pole dancers shimmying round cards, fighters costumed for Mardi Gras, corner men in paintball camo, and the Star Spangled Banner tortured beyond recognition, but still boxing gets shunted aside by the X-Games and badminton. More and more The Sweet Science is a Victrola in an MP3 age.

Promoters don't get it. It's not about the glitz to glue the lost generation to TV. That's only an adrenaline rush. The candle burns the brightest just before it goes out.

Boxing survives -- and always will -- because its values are as old school as black-'n'-white trunks: character and pain

The torchbearer has to have it in his blood.

I ran across _that guy_ by chance one afternoon killing time before shooting sparring and interviews at the La Brea Gym in Los Angeles.

He was about 40, sweating against the far wall, sandwiched between two others, drumming on a speed bag. He continued hitting the bag, answering how he felt about boxing. The impact of what he said -- how he said it -- didn't strike me until I saw the footage.

It was mesmerizing. He was the embodiment of what it means to be a boxing fan. His spirit -- not lasers and smoke -- will keep the sport alive. Watching him search for words adequate enough to express the depth of his feeling for the sport, the life lessons, the discipline, the sacrifices, and the men who proved themselves -- all to the drumfire of the bag -- was as iconic as Ali standing over Liston.

He flubbed some boxers' names, to be sure, but there's no mistaking where his heart is, and he couldn't have said it more eloquently.

So if you get chills at "LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!", click this link:


----------



## PoliSari

john garfield said:


> *THE ULTIMATE BOXING FAN*
> .....


:thumbsup

what i loved about boxing itself was how pure it seemed (politics/"judging" aside). and like "The Ultimate Boxing Fan".. i find that solitary nature of it to be interesting. inside a great boxer's head during a fight.. what a place that would be.

i still love it but it is getting harder to keep up. when phoning/looking for a place to watch a fight it is not unusual for me to hear "boxing? i don't know. if it's not a Tyson or Pacquiao fight, we're probably not showing it." atsch


----------



## DrMo

Really good piece JG, this is the thread that keeps on delivering :good


----------



## Wallet

john garfield said:


> *THE ULTIMATE BOXING FAN*
> 
> Boxing's unlikely to ever be what it was in its heyday - too much extreme-sport competition. Shaun White's this era's Ray Robinson.
> 
> Nothing's forever: the dinosaurs learned that. The writing's been on the wall for decades. But boxing hangs in like a fighter on the ropes.
> 
> All the P.T. Barnums have razzle-dazzled'em to lure the gym rats back: Ring walks to rival Ceasars' entrance, more fireworks than a KISS concert, pole dancers shimmying round cards, fighters costumed for Mardi Gras, corner men in paintball camo, and the Star Spangled Banner tortured beyond recognition, but still boxing gets shunted aside by the X-Games and badminton. More and more The Sweet Science is a Victrola in an MP3 age.
> 
> Promoters don't get it. It's not about the glitz to glue the lost generation to TV. That's only an adrenaline rush. The candle burns the brightest just before it goes out.
> 
> Boxing survives -- and always will -- because its values are as old school as black-'n'-white trunks: character and pain
> 
> The torchbearer has to have it in his blood.
> 
> I ran across _that guy_ by chance one afternoon killing time before shooting sparring and interviews at the La Brea Gym in Los Angeles.
> 
> He was about 40, sweating against the far wall, sandwiched between two others, drumming on a speed bag. He continued hitting the bag, answering how he felt about boxing. The impact of what he said -- how he said it -- didn't strike me until I saw the footage.
> 
> It was mesmerizing. He was the embodiment of what it means to be a boxing fan. His spirit -- not lasers and smoke -- will keep the sport alive. Watching him search for words adequate enough to express the depth of his feeling for the sport, the life lessons, the discipline, the sacrifices, and the men who proved themselves -- all to the drumfire of the bag -- was as iconic as Ali standing over Liston.
> 
> He flubbed some boxers' names, to be sure, but there's no mistaking where his heart is, and he couldn't have said it more eloquently.
> 
> So if you get chills at "LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!", click this link:


Brilliant. :good


----------



## Burt Brooks

john garfield said:


> *THE ULTIMATE BOXING FAN*
> 
> Boxing's unlikely to ever be what it was in its heyday - too much extreme-sport competition. Shaun White's this era's Ray Robinson.
> 
> Nothing's forever: the dinosaurs learned that. The writing's been on the wall for decades. But boxing hangs in like a fighter on the ropes.
> 
> All the P.T. Barnums have razzle-dazzled'em to lure the gym rats back: Ring walks to rival Ceasars' entrance, more fireworks than a KISS concert, pole dancers shimmying round cards, fighters costumed for Mardi Gras, corner men in paintball camo, and the Star Spangled Banner tortured beyond recognition, but still boxing gets shunted aside by the X-Games and badminton. More and more The Sweet Science is a Victrola in an MP3 age.
> 
> Promoters don't get it. It's not about the glitz to glue the lost generation to TV. That's only an adrenaline rush. The candle burns the brightest just before it goes out.
> 
> Boxing survives -- and always will -- because its values are as old school as black-'n'-white trunks: character and pain
> 
> The torchbearer has to have it in his blood.
> 
> I ran across _that guy_ by chance one afternoon killing time before shooting sparring and interviews at the La Brea Gym in Los Angeles.
> 
> He was about 40, sweating against the far wall, sandwiched between two others, drumming on a speed bag. He continued hitting the bag, answering how he felt about boxing. The impact of what he said -- how he said it -- didn't strike me until I saw the footage.
> 
> It was mesmerizing. He was the embodiment of what it means to be a boxing fan. His spirit -- not lasers and smoke -- will keep the sport alive. Watching him search for words adequate enough to express the depth of his feeling for the sport, the life lessons, the discipline, the sacrifices, and the men who proved themselves -- all to the drumfire of the bag -- was as iconic as Ali standing over Liston.
> 
> He flubbed some boxers' names, to be sure, but there's no mistaking where his heart is, and he couldn't have said it more eloquently.
> 
> So if you get chills at "LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!", click this link:


Great piece jg...You are the Jimmy Cannon of today !


----------



## NoMas

That video was straight from the heart, his eyes dont move, dude is in the zone


----------



## doug.ie

video added to my favourites


----------



## hhascup

doug.ie said:


> In the early '50s, Bobby Bartles, a stylish, stand-up boxer-puncher trained there. He was starting to get noticed, piling up wins in clubs all over New York.
> Bartles was movie star handsome -- a Cary Grant. He looked like he'd be more at home at a yacht club than Stillman's...'till he spoke. No mistaking the mean streets of Queens.
> 
> One day after winning a main-go, Bartles raged into the gym: "Read this!" he shouted, shaking the sports page. When he was asked why he was so angry, Bartles read aloud: "Last night, Anglo-Saxon looking welterweight Bobby Bartles scored his biggest victory...." Pausing, Bartles shouted: "Who the fuck is Angelo Saxon? I'll break his ass!"
> 
> .


I know Bobby Bartels very well. I just saw him at a Ring 8 meeting last week.

Here's a picture that was taken at the Ring 8 meeting of Bobby and Lenny Mangiapane, who fought each other in 1964. The stoppage started a riot in the stands between the fans of the two fighters who were both from Queens. Bobby still looks Great! He's the guy in the middle, with Lenny on the left. There very close friends now.

http://www.ring8ny.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/DSC_9463.jpg


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## Mandanda

Marvelous stuff as ever JG!. Thank you.


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## john garfield

*A JOURNEYMAN'S BIGGEST PURSE*

Macka Foley had over 50 pro fights in the late '60s and was stopped 13 times, in addition to being flattened five times by Earnie Shavers in sparring. Macka's motto was: "I'll fight anybody, anyplace for a $1000"

I asked him, "What was your biggest payday?"

"$30,000"

"For what?"

"For torchin' a bowling alley."


----------



## Lunny

john garfield said:


> *A JOURNEYMAN'S BIGGEST PURSE*
> 
> Macka Foley had over 50 pro fights in the late '60s and was stopped 13 times, in addition to being flattened five times by Earnie Shavers in sparring. Macka's motto was: "I'll fight anybody, anyplace for a $1000"
> 
> I asked him, "What was your biggest payday?"
> 
> "$30,000, he replied.
> 
> "For what?"
> 
> "For torchin' a bowling alley."


:lol:


----------



## doug.ie

hehe.
@hhascup - great photo...good to see that, thanks.


----------



## Robney

john garfield said:


> *A JOURNEYMAN'S BIGGEST PURSE*
> 
> Macka Foley had over 50 pro fights in the late '60s and was stopped 13 times, in addition to being flattened five times by Earnie Shavers in sparring. Macka's motto was: "I'll fight anybody, anyplace for a $1000"
> 
> I asked him, "What was your biggest payday?"
> 
> "$30,000"
> 
> "For what?"
> 
> "For torchin' a bowling alley."


:lol:


----------



## john garfield

Seething hatred...for _REAL_
*BERNARD HOPKINS-JERMAIN TAYLOR FINAL PRESSER*

Fights aren't settled in the gutter when you're the center of a growing financial empire. One's cut to ribbons without blood being spilled. It's done with invective and innuendo - not bricks - but skewered as surely as the end of a Cyrano couplet

So, a press conference at the Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel, facing "The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" on Rodeo Drive, couldn't have been a more appropriate setting for Golden Boy Promotions to trumpet it's July 16 HBO Pay-Per-View showcase for company-partner, and jewel-in-the-crown, Bernard "The Executioner" Hopkins, defending his undisputed middleweight championship for the 21st time against Jermain "Bad Intentions" Taylor at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas.

The marketing angle seemed a natural: aging veteran gives undefeated deserving kid a shot at the crown&#8230;Promising&#8230;but not surefire like Vargas against De La Hoya, when the faithful counted the hours.

But, seething beneath the surface, Hopkins has 610,000 reasons to not only want to beat Taylor but to destroy his promoter. That's exactly how many dollars Lou DiBella was awarded in a libel judgment against him.

So in this Theatre-of-the-Absurd, Hopkins doesn't exact street justice, he shares the stage civilly with DiBella to make the PPV a bonanza and his revenge all the sweeter. "_What a tangled web we weave_."

The ultimate oxymoron was a line in the press release: Golden Boy Promotions in association with DiBella Entertainment . . . There couldn't be anyone Hopkins would less like to associate with.

With that as subtext, just before noon I padded up the red-carpeted spiral staircase to the Champagne Room. 
The ballroom had hints of the Palace of Versailles: chandeliers -- mirrors all 'round - more a place for a duel of words than a brawl. The empty stage at the front was set for GBP on one side and DiBella's team on the other.

Oscar De La Hoya, conferring with an associate, waited down the hall, his back to the media spilling into the ballroom. This wasn't prizefighter De La Hoya; it was magnate DLH in a tailored pinstripe suit. His tousled black hair tumbled over his collar. He looked like an obscenely paid motivational speaker revving-up for an hour's pep talk before jetting away.

There was a clear caste system among the media. The beat writers for the dailies were well groomed. The Internet was represented by bloused shirts, sneakers and baseball caps off to one side. They looked pleased to be grazing at the buffet table; eating better than they normally would and getting validated parking.

De La Hoya joined the group, beaming, and shook hands and autographed whatever was put in front of him, and posed for pictures with press who wouldn't let it color their stories.

Before De La Hoya spoke, a hush descended. One expected footlights to come up. Both fighters' teams took seats at the dais like actors waiting for the curtain to rise.

The surroundings stifled the usual din. De La Hoya surveyed the room and welcomed all from the podium. If Oscar's fists were as slow as his opening remarks, he'd never have won eight titles.

The tension was building, like hearing Don Corleone say, "I didn't know until this day that it was Barzini all along."

DiBella stood and glanced at Hopkins, "Remember, Bernard, this side of the table is undefeated against you," rubbing salt in the wound. "Hopkins," DiBella went on, "is probably one of the five greatest middleweights ever, but on July 16 we're going to stay undefeated against you. The Executioner is going to get executed. Hopkins stared straight ahead.

It was smash and volley at Wimbledon; the audience craned from one to the other. Pat Burns, Taylor's trainer since he turned pro, reflected on Hopkins's age: "I'm not fooled by that age. 'Many a good tune in an old fiddle,' I tell my wife. I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good as I was once. The laughter exploded and built. "I'm gonna use that," Hopkins grinned at Burns.

Burns continued: "Hopkins doesn't have a Masters Degree; he has a PHD. We could call him Dr. Hopkins. Jermaine Taylor may be the student, but he's about to graduate. All good things come to an end. July 16, there's a new sheriff in town."

Taylor looked more like 160-pound Herschel Walker and spoke as humbly as Joe Louis. "You'll never hear me sayin' nothing negative about an opponent of mine, because it takes a man to step in that ring - I don't care if you get knocked out. If you ever been between those ropes, you look at your opponent . . . It's a helluva feeling. So I'll never take shots at an opponent." He lowered his voice "especially an opponent who's world champion, who accomplished things I can only hope to accomplish in boxing, and in his lifetime, period."

"I'll make you all two promises: When I win - and I will - I will not jump all around the ring, whooping and hollerin', talkin' about, 'I told you so!' 'I shocked the world,' and all this hoopla. I'll still give this man the respect he deserves. He's a true champion. When I'm a world champion, I hope to be half the champion he is."

Hopkins stood and braced both hands firmly on the podium. He sported a diamond-crusted Big Ben on his left wrist - just at DiBella's eye line - that would have drained the treasury of an oil sheikdom. It's a wonder everyone wasn't struck blind.

Hopkins paused for dramatic affect and launched into a rant. Every word meant to turn the knife. "I just got three back-to-back PPV fights, at 40-years-old. I don't think Time-Warner and HBO thought they were being foolish signing an old man.

"The record tells you who I am. I'm always in shape," yanking-up his shirt with both hands, revealing a mid-section that could only look that tight with airbrushing. I'm a 40-year-old guy. If there was a scale right here now, I'd weigh 166 pounds. Can Jermaine Taylor say that?

"40-years-old ain't a death sentence, for all people that's lookin' on their shoulder in corporate America, thinkin' that that young Turk gonna take their job. Slow down! Take your Geritol, like I do."

A room full of over-40s cheered.

"Being old ain't always bad," Hopkins said. "Everybody in this room had to be young before they became old. "What can I sell you all? I can't sell you anything but the fight. I can't sell you me; you know me.

"Every person has a motivational experience . . . It goes all the way back before I was an athlete - 18 plus years ago, at a young 22-years-old. I said, 'What'ya wanna do with your life? What're the options?'

"You heard Jermaine Taylor's story . . . It's touching - and I'm not saying something to be smart, or boastin'&#8230;Man had to be a man before he became a man.

"But my biggest goal was not being champion when I got out of the penitentiary -- with nine years of parole to walk off, with a GED -- with nine felonies. The odds was against me! - Totally against me. I just wanted to stay out of prison. Look where I wound up at.

His voicing rising like an evangelist, "Being considered as one of the five greatest middleweights, looking at DiBella, "from one of my enemies &#8230; Don't have to like me; Respect me." DiBella acknowledged with a one-finger salute.

Hopkins ignored it. "Interviewers have said: 'Bernard, you could've took Joe blow, here, Willy Lump-Lump, there, who-the-hell-is-this-guy, here. You took on Jermain Taylor; why?'

"I said I fear no man. I don't believe any fighter can reach the magnitude of mentality in my heart and my spirit - which kept me through this - courtrooms, in the ring, and in my life, personally. You can't reach that level unless you experienced it. Jermaine can't reach that. He has no experience in that - thank God. That's my edge."

Hopkins paused. "I got an incentive now." "It's a little personal with me. You all know what that is - or at least the writers do - You all wrote a lot about it."

DiBella's salute remained in the air. "See, I'm the judge and the jury in that ring," he continued. The judge won't have to use no scorecards. I have an incentive to win. I knockout two situations: I knockout a company and I knockout a fighter. That's my incentive not to become old July 16.

"Ain't nobody can deny the stats - the consistency&#8230;"

"In the ring..." DiBella interrupted. And before Hopkins could continue, he repeated, louder, "IN THE RING&#8230;"

"I don't have no Harvard degree," Hopkins placed the dagger. "I never cut the man off when he was speaking. Goes to tell you, even with education, you could be a fool."


----------



## doug.ie

this is great JG....i'm a big hopkins fan....did you like him JG ?


----------



## Zico

john garfield said:


> *A JOURNEYMAN'S BIGGEST PURSE*
> 
> Macka Foley had over 50 pro fights in the late '60s and was stopped 13 times, in addition to being flattened five times by Earnie Shavers in sparring. Macka's motto was: "I'll fight anybody, anyplace for a $1000"
> 
> I asked him, "What was your biggest payday?"
> 
> "$30,000"
> 
> "For what?"
> 
> "For torchin' a bowling alley."


:lol:


----------



## Twelvey

That b-hop- Taylor conference is great JG. I love Hopkins mentality in preparation for big fights.


----------



## john garfield

12downfor10 said:


> That b-hop- Taylor conference is great JG. I love Hopkins mentality in preparation for big fights.


Keep comin' back, 12 Got lots more


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## Bajingo

Fantastic read, JG. 

What di you think of the actual fight? Personally I thought Hopkins was very unlucky on the cards in both fights but particularly the first.


----------



## john garfield

Bajingo said:


> Fantastic read, JG.
> 
> What di you think of the actual fight? Personally I thought Hopkins was very unlucky on the cards in both fights but particularly the first.


Think B-Hop thought Taylor would be a deer in the headlights -- a piece a cake. Didn't expect his hand speed, work rate or persistence. He did too little 'n too late to stem the tide. Taylor earned the W, B


----------



## DonBoxer

john garfield said:


> *A JOURNEYMAN'S BIGGEST PURSE*
> 
> Macka Foley had over 50 pro fights in the late '60s and was stopped 13 times, in addition to being flattened five times by Earnie Shavers in sparring. Macka's motto was: "I'll fight anybody, anyplace for a $1000"
> 
> I asked him, "What was your biggest payday?"
> 
> "$30,000"
> 
> "For what?"
> 
> "For torchin' a bowling alley."


:lol:


----------



## Meast

So much to catch up on


----------



## Twelvey

john garfield said:


> *A JOURNEYMAN'S BIGGEST PURSE*
> 
> Macka Foley had over 50 pro fights in the late '60s and was stopped 13 times, in addition to being flattened five times by Earnie Shavers in sparring. Macka's motto was: "I'll fight anybody, anyplace for a $1000"
> 
> I asked him, "What was your biggest payday?"
> 
> "$30,000"
> 
> "For what?"
> 
> "For torchin' a bowling alley."


:lol: 
Quality


----------



## NoMas

hahaha great stuff


----------



## Mandanda

Love that last line from B-Hop, I felt Hopkins won both but i think he left it to much to chance in first.


----------



## doug.ie

Mandanda said:


> Love that last line from B-Hop, I felt Hopkins won both but i think he left it to much to chance in first.


you a b-hop fan mandanda ?


----------



## Mandanda

doug.ie said:


> you a b-hop fan mandanda ?


I have a take him or leave him attitude towards him Doug, some fights i'm rooting for him but sometimes i back against him. I have massive respect for him and find myself intrigued by his style and how he's made best use out of his tools as well as his philosophy on sport and life which is always interesting to hear.

I was firmly in the Dawson camp for the last two bouts, although i wanted to beat Pascal in rematch. Depends on who he's fighting and his attitude in lead up which is bi polar :lol:.


----------



## doug.ie

fair enough that...i like dawson meself...not as much as hopkins but i do like him


----------



## TheDemolitionDan

“I don’t have no Harvard degree,” Hopkins placed the dagger. “I never cut the man off when he was speaking. Goes to tell you, even with education, you could be a fool.”

:lol: Great line.


----------



## Casual Benson's Unknown

First time really reading through this thread! Really great read the whole way through, can't believe I put it off for so long.


Does anyone have a Video of the Hopkins - Taylor press conference from the last page btw?


----------



## john garfield

Unknown Poster said:


> First time really reading through this thread! Really great read the whole way through, can't believe I put it off for so long.
> 
> Does anyone have a Video of the Hopkins - Taylor press conference from the last page btw?


Gladya enjoyed,UP. keep coming back 'n tell your mates


----------



## john garfield

*A DEATH WISH?*

In the late '60s, I went to the old Madison Square Garden to see a main-go between two Latin fighters, one Cuban, the other Puerto Rican.

The Garden's a tinderbox; any spark will set it off.

The main event's hotly contested -- could go either way. When the decision's announced, the losing side -- already spoiling for a fight -- attacks the winner's fans. Everybody's raining beer bottles into the ring. Fighters, seconds and TV people dive under the ring.

Broken furniture and everything that can be ripped loose is heaved. The main floor is shelled -- shrapnel whizzing in every direction - brawlers racing for cover. It's a war zone.

Lunatics in the cheap seats yank the red fire spears off the walls and javelin them down. I shudder at someone being impaled -- hug the ground, barely able see between my fingers under the seat.

Then, from the far end of the arena comes a stocky, curly-haired figure -- vaguely familiar -- in a double-breasted suit, walking purposefully -- not rushing -- through the hellacious barrage. No other life form dares move.

As he gets closer, I recognize the knock-the-chip-off my shoulder walk: world-famous novelist, Norman Mailer. He doesn't duck, flinch, blink or avoid anything walking to the other side of the arena. Metal and shards and jagged hunks crisscross every inch of him until he exits through advancing police with shields held high.

_Russian Roulette with no empty chambers_.

What would possess Mailer to do it, a man of his intellect? Drink? Drugs? Both? A macho head-trip? A search for enlightenment? Or, was he like the guy that jumped off a bridge, and when asked why, said, "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

It was never mentioned in the morning papers and Mailer's never spoken of it or addressed it in any of his work. But, finally, after more than 50 years, he may have revealed why he did such a suicidal thing in a sentence about his philosophy of life in his book THE SPOOKY ART: "...he has had the courage to be bold where others might cry insanity."


----------



## doug.ie

i would honestly pay to have your memories JG


----------



## Flea Man

The Hopkins piece was pure class JG.


----------



## dftaylor

Any stories on the Golden Boy, JG?


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> Any stories on the Golden Boy, JG?


lemme think about an incident specifically about Oscar, df, but if you've not read the press conference story earlier on the thread about B-Hop's first title fight with Jermaine Taylor, there's a section that shines a light on what Oscar's about.


----------



## Del Boy

@john garfield A good read John a lot of things I didnt know about the fight, I would have expected this kind of hatred in their second fight but not in the first. I notice you said in another comment you though Taylor deserved the win as did I, how about the second fight and how do you feel about Hopkins )and Taylor for that matter) fighting on in 2012


----------



## Jim Bowen

Great thread, I mean really superb, sorry about not commenting last night JG, however I was stoned out of my mind on my last day in Amsterdam. But reading through this thread last night made for some excellent reading. Thanks and long may it continue.


----------



## BoxingAnalyst

Great reads yet again JG!


----------



## Robney

Jim Bowen said:


> Great thread, I mean really superb, sorry about not commenting last night JG, however I was stoned out of my mind on my last day in Amsterdam. But reading through this thread last night made for some excellent reading. Thanks and long may it continue.


Why do foreigners always go to Amsterdam to get stoned?!? :lol:

Nice story again JG.


----------



## Jim Bowen

Robney said:


> Why do foreigners always go to Amsterdam to get stoned?!? :lol:
> 
> Nice story again JG.


I actually really enjoyed the city. The architecture is amazing in your country as well, wish I'd seen more of the museums, but the ques were always so long. Would you recommend any other city's in Holland to visit?


----------



## Robney

Jim Bowen said:


> I actually really enjoyed the city. The architecture is amazing in your country as well, wish I'd seen more of the museums, but the ques were always so long. Would you recommend any other city's in Holland to visit?


I'm not such a 'big city' kinda guy (although I live in one)...
I really like Valkenburg and Maastricht (Limburg), but as a foreigner you can't get stoned there anymore. (some kinda pass thing)

but let's not litter this amazing thread with travel advice and such


----------



## john garfield

Jim Bowen said:


> Great thread, I mean really superb, sorry about not commenting last night JG, however I was stoned out of my mind on my last day in Amsterdam. But reading through this thread last night made for some excellent reading. Thanks and *long may it continue*.


Bigger boost than my morning coffee, JB


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> *i would honestly pay to have your memories* JG


Cash, doug, 'nya can have'em all


----------



## Robney

john garfield said:


> Cash, doug, 'nya can have'em all


:lol:
I settle for reading about them here :good


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> @john garfield A good read John a lot of things I didnt know about the fight, I would have expected this kind of hatred in their second fight but not in the first. I notice you said in another comment you though Taylor deserved the win as did I, how about the second fight and how do you feel about Hopkins )and Taylor for that matter) fighting on in 2012


The second fight's a little fuzzy in my mind, DB, but I thought it was tighter than the first, but Taylor deserved the edge.

As a far as both still fighting, I fear for Taylor's health -- not only the fearful KOs he's suffered, but his incoherent ramblings after fights. He brings to mind Kirk Douglas's final scene in THE CHAMPION. Hopefully,life doesn't imitate art.

As for B-Hop, times run out. He's no longer PPV marketable or a serious threat to hungry young top-tear talent, but he'll stick around to squeeze every penny outta the game, and give naysayers the finger, as he always has.


----------



## Boogle McDougal

Champion is such a great film. Great script. I came across a line from it the other day, I didn't remember hearing it in the film...

Connie Kelly: Oh, this rotten business! 
Midge Kelly: Awww, lay off the business. It's like any other business, only here the blood shows.


----------



## john garfield

*THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM*

'Be a clown. Be a clown. All the world loves a clown'&#8230;

All that was needed was baggy pants and pratfalls at the Beverly Hills Hotel press conference for World War II between Diego Corrales and Jose Luis Castillo for the WBC and WBO lightweight belts on October 8 in Vegas at the Thomas and Mack Center.

The media loved it. It was the Rat Pack at the Sands. One-liners ... Sports-bar ragging. Gary Shaw played lead promoter/ Shecky Green. The teams traded laughs the way Corrales and Castillo traded punches two months earlier. _Bada bing!_ It had all the rancor of a Dean Martin roast.

But it was a mask: gallows humor. "We have to make jokes," co-promoter Bob Arum said soberly, confronting the elephant in the room, "the tension is too strong. We wouldn't be able to stand it, so we make jokes, but we all know what hell it will be like on Oct 8."

It wasn't hyperbole, with the heat of the action several stories high on a screen behind him. If it'd been a video game, outraged parents would have replaced Mortal Combat to lobby congress.

It's good it was on a loop; so many had averted their eyes seeing it live. The ending so melodramatic; it would have been rejected in the first draft of "Rocky."

It was in sharp contrast to what usually greets one at a presser: pounding hip-hop on a WWF in-your-face promo of the fiercest bits of the fighters MTV'd together with a mile-a-minute monster-truck voice-over.

All that was needed to sell this fight was the actual footage - no bells and whistles. Fred Sternburg, Shaw's publicist, understood less is more. Although, "John Henry's a steel-driv'n man" wouldn't have been inappropriate music.

Instead of final instructions from referee Tony Weeks, both fighters should have thrust a glove at the lens, "We who are about to die salute you!" For the next 40 minutes, the only thing missing were the lions. They didn't need gloves; axes would have sufficed. It's the first time both gladiators would have gotten a thumbs-up.

Homicide cops, inured to violence, entered the ballroom shaking their heads at the oversized images of Corrales and Castillo pistoning their arms like roustabouts racing to drive tent pegs. Nothing missed the mark or drained either man's will. It wasn't a prizefight; it was a pain-tolerance test.

Scribes and sparring partners, who give nobody slack, were humbled.

As Sugar Ray Leonard said to Chico, giving him a big hug, "Well, you're in the club now - the guys who've made history and will be talked about for decades."

Neither Corrales nor Castillo, in the midst of well-wishers before the presser began, would have been mistaken for the heroic figures of gristle and bone locked in a battle for the ages above them.

Castillo, with a broad grin, in a loose red T-shirt, looked like a poster for Mexican tourism; the guy who'd root for Castillo, mow the lawn and invite you to a cookout - not the stuff of myths, or the need to be on stage.

Chico, his face fuller since the bout, slouched easily nearby with those that wanted a word, an autograph or a picture. He listened and smiled with his eyes. It was hard to connect him with the colossus that stood up round after round to body shots that would have splintered a door. He didn't wear macho on his sleeve. They may have blended as everymen, but they were _ubermenschen_, with that footage fresh in everyone's mind.

Shaw introduced Fernando Beltran, Castillo's manager - as well as Jorge Arce, and Eric Morales - emphasizing, "They're not only Mexicans; they fight like Mexicans." Beltran returned the compliment: "Corrales is not a total Mexican, but he fights like a total Mexican."&#8230; But, with a sly smile, added, "I did a little research. I would like to show you pictures - before and after," holding up an unmarked Castillo and a bruised and puffy Corrales.

"To win the belts, you must get the welts!" Shaw sloganed, waving a photo of Corrales with the championship belt. "That's the picture that means something to us! Your man is courageous, ours is the champion." Chico nodded wordlessly.

"He just borrowed the belts," Beltran shot back. "I'm a stingy guy," Corrales responded. "My daddy always told me, 'You pay the cos' to be the boss,'" his voice more steely. "I paid the cost that night to be the BOSS, poking his picture with the belt. "I'm not giving it back! It's not gonna be relinquished! I'm not giving it up. I said hell or high water last time. I mean hell or high water THIS TIME!" The buzz lessened, registering his remarks.

Jose Luis, grinning like a waiter bringing a surprise birthday cake, presented Corrales with a box of mouthpieces, suggesting he illegally spit his out. It was bound to come up. The laughter was a release. Photographers rushed the dais, shouting over each other in English and Spanish how they wanted the boxers to pose with them.

"You had a hand in it," a photographer called Goossen to join the posing.

"I've been practicing with Diego spitting it out," Goossen ribbed, and got the laugh.

When it bordered on chaos, Shaw brushed the lensers aside. "This is not a Playboy shoot!" and called up Diego's manager, James Prince, "who'll now talk a little smack and we'll get into Castillo's head"

Conjuring up Red Foxx, Prince said, "As I predicted, we would stop him, dissect him, put a little tenderizer on him, and then chew him up. We done that &#8230;in spectacalar fashion &#8230; on his feet. I wish we had that picture."

"You ask and you will receive, "Shaw obliged, grandly, handing Prince a picture of Castillo sagging against the ropes. "That's a beautiful picture," Prince said, holding it high. "His mouthpiece gonna be out this time. So bring a pillow with you," he looked at Castillo.

Calling on Joe Goossen, his trainer, Shaw said, "I'd like to introduce the best-looking, best dressed guy who had those wonderful words during the 10th round. "'Diego, you better do it now!'"

"I don't want to tell you what I really said," Goossen cracked as he came to the mike. After Joe's glowing words about team-GSP and Chico, Shaw glanced sideways. "I hope that wasn't for a higher percentage?"

"Why don't you give him your tailor," a voice wisecracked to Goossen for Shaw's benefit. "We're the peoples' champion." The T-shirted Shaw stood up. "We don't have to dress fancy. We do our talkin' in the ring."

"When's Diego gonna start training, Gary?" another voice piped up. "He trains at the buffet with me." _Rim shot. _

As the room cleared, I asked Shaw - because of the fight - if he'd reflected on his place in history. "People talk about it as the fight of the decade," he said. "I know I co-promoted a great fight, but as a promoter, I always look forward, not back. I don't know that anybody understands their place in history until history is written."

Focusing on making great matches, he's insuring his place.

At a time when promoters are using 'there's-a-sucker-born-every-minute' approach to PPV, Shaw gives value for the dollar, not a medicine show. He's put together what fans want, not what he wants to push. Anybody with resin in their blood can't wait to see Corrales-Castillo II and a repeat of Fight-of-the-Year nominee Jorge Arce and Hussein Hussein - plus junior lightweights Jesus Chavez and Carlos Hernandez go at it a second time. Their bout stole the show on the Julio Cesar Chavez-Ivan Robinson card.

As the elephant lumbered to the exit, Shaw's words echoed in my ears: "I see the fight being the same way. They don't know how to fight any other way. Diego wanted to call it, 'The Eleventh Round.'"

The "hell" Arum described is the crucible that defines both men.


----------



## dftaylor

john garfield said:


> lemme think about an incident specifically about Oscar, df, but if you've not read the press conference story earlier on the thread about B-Hop's first title fight with Jermaine Taylor, there's a section that shines a light on what Oscar's about.


That's what made me curious. The guy is a real enigma. He's been so well coached that his true personality often disappears underneath the smoothness, but every so often we see who he really is. The way he obliterated Vargas, his disappointment after losing to Mosley in the rematch, the fishnets... he's a very confused, angry man who's never been allowed to just be his own person. IMO.


----------



## Burt Brooks

doug.ie said:


> The shower for the entire gym was a single open stall with a concrete floor and drain and a rusted-solid showerhead. Wet towels littered the floor. One day the police burst in and slammed a journeyman light heavyweight I was talking to against the wall and cuffed him and dragged him out in a towel. He was wanted for murder.
> 
> Upstairs in the heavy-bag area, you could watch Jimmy Bivins, Johnny Bratton, Jimmy Carter, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ike Williams, Bob Murphy, Rocky Graziano and Bob Montgomery all whacking the big bags, doing floor exercises, or studying their moves in the wall-length mirror next to under card fighters and promising amateurs.
> 
> Whenever Sugar Ray Robinson skipped rope or hit the speed bag, everybody stopped what they were doing, cleared the floor and crowded around. He glided with the grace of Fred Astaire. His combinations, dazzling.
> 
> Wherever Robinson was in the gym, he was a prince holding court; right up until departure with his entourage in his fuchsia Cadillac convertible which sat in front of the gym in the NO PARKING area.
> 
> Learning how to feint from Willie Pep, how to lengthen my jab from Billy Conn; how to draw a right hand, roll with it and come back over the top from Johnny Bratton, and countless words of encouragement from Joe Louis, Tony Janiro, Bo Bo Olson and Gil Turner are treasured memories.
> 
> In the early '50s, Bobby Bartles, a stylish, stand-up boxer-puncher trained there. He was starting to get noticed, piling up wins in clubs all over New York.
> Bartles was movie star handsome -- a Cary Grant. He looked like he'd be more at home at a yacht club than Stillman's...'till he spoke. No mistaking the mean streets of Queens.
> 
> One day after winning a main-go, Bartles raged into the gym: "Read this!" he shouted, shaking the sports page. When he was asked why he was so angry, Bartles read aloud: "Last night, Anglo-Saxon looking welterweight Bobby Bartles scored his biggest victory...." Pausing, Bartles shouted: "Who the fuck is Angelo Saxon? I'll break his ass!"
> 
> Everybody smoked and spit on the floor, including the fighters when they took a break. Graziano would take a drag on a cigarette between rounds of sparring. The main floor was a haze of cigarette and cigar smoke.
> 
> Everyplace you looked, you'd see corner men like Charley Goldman, with a cigar stub in the corner of his mouth, tending to a fighter. Goldman was a pixie, bandy-legged, not much more than five feet, with a nose dented by of hundreds of fights. He always wore a derby at a jaunty angle and looked and spoke like a character right out of Damon Runyon.
> 
> The most experienced boxing trainers, and keenest minds in the sport ministered to every fighter in the gym. It was an extended family: when one trainer couldn't cover a guy's fight or training, another stepped right in. There were days when I got advice from Charley Goldman, ****** Bimsten, Jimmy August, Chickie Ferrara, Al Silvani, Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown. Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee just assisted at that time.
> 
> As legendary as those trainers were, they weren't spared Stillman's venom, but they were the only ones allowed to answer the bank of phones just to the right of the front door. Over the gym din was the ubiquitous "Telephone for ****** Bimstein!"
> 
> Bimstein was a bald pink Kewpie-doll, always with a trace of a smile, but fierce 'n no-nonsense in the corner.
> 
> Over the years, a variety of stories went around about Stillman: He'd been a cop who'd been wounded several times in a shootout. The more probable version was that Stillman (his real name was Ingber) had been a trolley conductor who was an acquaintance of Marshall Stillman, a wealthy philanthropist after World War 1, and Stillman hired him to run a gym to keep kids off the street.
> 
> Originally, in 1919, it was called Marshall Stillman's Movement, and it was located up in Harlem on 125th St. and Seventh Ave.
> 
> The premier fight gym in New York at the time was Billy Grupp's on 116th St. But after a drunken, anti-Semitic tirade by Grupp, blaming the Jews for World War 1, Benny Leonard and a contingent of Jewish fighters stormed out of Grupp's gym to look for another place to train.
> 
> Leonard tried Stillman's storefront, even though it wasn't intended for professionals, and it had little equipment, but Leonard and the others decided it suited them. Ingber (who over time became known as "Stillman") knew nothing about boxing, but he was quick to realize a good thing and charged the public to watch Leonard and the others train.
> 
> When Stillman had outgrown the space in the early '30s, he borrowed money and bought the property downtown at 919 West 54th St. and re-named it Stillman's Gym. From the time he bought it, Stillman never cleaned it or invested a nickel in its upkeep.
> 
> The number one fight venue in the world, from the early '20s through the '60s, was the version of Madison Square Garden that was on 52nd St. and 8th Ave., two short blocks from Stillman's.
> 
> Anybody fighting at The Garden trained at Stillman's. Anybody who wanted to watch the premier fighters in the world train came up to Stillman's. When the best fighters weren't fighting or training, they still came to Stillman's to be among their friends. And when they left the gym, they all went to the Neutral Corner for drinks. It was a few doors from the gym, and THE fight-crowd hangout. Tony Janiro was the bartender.
> 
> Over the years, I'd see Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis, Buddy Hackett and Tony Bennett kibitzing ringside, watching sparring during their breaks between shows at The Paramount and The Roxy. And, at least two actors that I can remember soaked up as much of the atmosphere as they could: Marlon Brando for ON THE WATERFRONT, and Paul Newman for SOMEBODY UP THERE LIKES ME.
> 
> I'm convinced the single event that expedited Stillman to sell the gym-- more than the economics - was Tommy "Hurricane" Jackson.
> 
> He out-eccentriced any living human. It wasn't that he went out of his way to compete with Lou Jenkins motorcycling up the stairs to the gym, or Mickey Walker and Fritzie Zivic's barhopping; Jackson defined ADD 40 years before the malady existed.
> 
> He puzzled everybody from his first appearance in the early '50s. He was a 6-3 smooth-muscled heavyweight from Far Rockaway, New York. His constant bemused look and the maniacal light in his eyes said there was nobody home.
> 
> He was a curiosity in a professional fight gym housing world champions.
> 
> Not only wasn't he equipped to be a fighter; it was questionable if he could get all his limbs to obey. His imitation of prizefighting and training had everybody shaking their heads, and Stillman muttering aloud: "Disgraceful..."
> 
> When he sparred -- if you could call it that - Jackson just out-annoyed spar mates, yet he kept winning fights, until he graduated to main events, and -- unbelievably-- got ranked in the top 10.
> 
> He wasn't courageous in the way you would normally understand it, where a fighter would take tremendous punishment and summon something from within to storm back. Jackson couldn't get out of the way of punches and seemed never to feel pain; he soaked-it-up and kept flailing and swatting... He was like some terrible toy you couldn't shut off no matter how many times you slammed it against the wall.
> 
> Watching Jackson in boxing gloves was like listening to Roseanne Barr sing The Star Spangled Banner.
> 
> His only response to any question was: "Wanna shoot rats?"
> 
> Summing it all up, there've been great fighters and trainers from gyms all over the country, but never in the sport's history have there been so many greats all in one place at one time. In the golden age of boxing, Stillman's produced more world-class fighters then any other gym ever had.
> 
> Now there's not even a marker to its existence. An apartment house sits on the spot. But 60 years ago, it was the center of the boxing universe.
> 
> .


JG, your column touched a nostalgic nerve with me, for I had spent the best hours of my young life at Stillman's gym...And yes i was visiting a friend who lived in the apartment house on the former site of Stillman's gym...For old time's sake i almost took a swing at her, but she was larger than me...Keep em acumin...


----------



## doug.ie

Burt Brooks said:


> For old time's sake i almost took a swing at her, but she was larger than me..




its a wonder you two didnt meet up back then


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> *its a wonder you two didnt meet up back then*


Often thought about that, d. We were probably at Stillman's and the fights at the same time, but passed, like ships in the night.


----------



## Mandanda

JG once again thanks for another great piece, Brought a smile to my face when Chico said about paying the cos to be the boss. 

RIP Chico.


----------



## john garfield

Mandanda said:


> JG once again thanks for another great piece, Brought a smile to my face when Chico said about paying the cos to be the boss.
> 
> RIP Chico.


Nothin' pleases me more than putinya ringside, M


----------



## john garfield

*TOMMY GALLAGHER*
Hard-boiled & Hilarious

Trainer Tommy Gallagher's been my bud for almost 50 years. Like Saddler against Pep, he has my number. 
Leaves me doubled-me-over laughin'. He's outrageous, has no filter

Tommy trained Yuri Vaulin, a tall, light-hitting Russian cruiserweight.

Vaulin was matched with Tommy Morrison in a main-go on national TV. Morrison was on track for a heavyweight title fight. 
Vaulin was supposed to be no more than a showcase tune-up. 
.
From round one through four, the Russian surprised
everyone, out-jabbing 'n out-boxing Morrison.

The crowd 'n Gallagher sensed UPSET -- the big money for Vaulin was in grasp.

Suddenly, in the 5th round, Morrison caught Vaulin with a left hook to the body. 
He crumpled to the canvas 'n couldn't beat the count.

The TV analyst jumped into the ring 'n shoved a mic in Gallagher's face 
while he ministered to the Russian.

"Tommy, Tommy, your kid was so close to being a
contender. What happened?"

"The cocksucker quit!" Gallagher said, coast-to-coast.


----------



## doug.ie




----------



## Roe

Love the piece on Corrales/Castillo. Great work as always JG :good


----------



## Flea Man

dftaylor said:


> That's what made me curious. The guy is a real enigma. He's been so well coached that his true personality often disappears underneath the smoothness, but every so often we see who he really is. The way he obliterated Vargas, his disappointment after losing to Mosley in the rematch, the fishnets... he's a very confused, angry man who's never been allowed to just be his own person. IMO.


The Michael Jackson of boxing?


----------



## Burt Brooks

john garfield said:


> *TOMMY GALLAGHER*
> Hard-boiled & Hilarious
> 
> Trainer Tommy Gallagher's been my bud for almost 50 years. Like Saddler against Pep, he has my number.
> Leaves me doubled-me-over laughin'. He's outrageous, has no filter
> 
> Tommy trained Yuri Vaulin, a tall, light-hitting Russian cruiserweight.
> 
> Vaulin was matched with Tommy Morrison in a main-go on national TV. Morrison was on track for a heavyweight title fight.
> Vaulin was supposed to be no more than a showcase tune-up.
> .
> From round one through four, the Russian surprised
> everyone, out-jabbing 'n out-boxing Morrison.
> 
> The crowd 'n Gallagher sensed UPSET -- the big money for Vaulin was in grasp.
> 
> Suddenly, in the 5th round, Morrison caught Vaulin with a left hook to the body.
> He crumpled to the canvas 'n couldn't beat the count.
> 
> The TV analyst jumped into the ring 'n shoved a mic in Gallagher's face
> while he ministered to the Russian.
> 
> "Tommy, Tommy, your kid was so close to being a
> contender. What happened?"
> 
> "The cocksucker quit!" Gallagher said, coast-to-coast.


Great ,jg, but why is Tommy so discreet. ?


----------



## hhascup

john garfield said:


> *TOMMY GALLAGHER*
> Hard-boiled & Hilarious
> 
> Trainer Tommy Gallagher's been my bud for almost 50 years. Like Saddler against Pep, he has my number.
> Leaves me doubled-me-over laughin'. He's outrageous, has no filter
> 
> Tommy trained Yuri Vaulin, a tall, light-hitting Russian cruiserweight.
> 
> Vaulin was matched with Tommy Morrison in a main-go on national TV. Morrison was on track for a heavyweight title fight.
> Vaulin was supposed to be no more than a showcase tune-up.
> .
> From round one through four, the Russian surprised
> everyone, out-jabbing 'n out-boxing Morrison.
> 
> The crowd 'n Gallagher sensed UPSET -- the big money for Vaulin was in grasp.
> 
> Suddenly, in the 5th round, Morrison caught Vaulin with a left hook to the body.
> He crumpled to the canvas 'n couldn't beat the count.
> 
> The TV analyst jumped into the ring 'n shoved a mic in Gallagher's face
> while he ministered to the Russian.
> 
> "Tommy, Tommy, your kid was so close to being a
> contender. What happened?"
> 
> "The cocksucker quit!" Gallagher said, coast-to-coast.


I know Tommy very well, and that sounds just like him!


----------



## Boxed Ears

When playing desert island, I feel bad I can't say "JG's posts" for the books question. :ibutt Book these, Danno! I will be back to catch up on everything I've missed in the thread, thus far. Looks like quite a bit. 



john garfield said:


> May frame your emoticon, M


:lol:


----------



## Lunny

Love catching up on this thread after a few days.


----------



## john garfield

*WISEGUY CALLS-OUT A PRO*

Saw this at a gym in N.Y. frequented by alotta wiseguys 
in the early '70s.

A three-time 122-pound Golden Gloves Champion and top-five pro contender was sparring, 'n a mountain-of-a bookmaker/leg-breaker (easily six-three, pushin' 300 pounds) -- grandstanding for his goombahs -- kept shoutin' cracks ("I'd squash ya like bug" -- blah blah blah)

The fighter, who was about five-six 'n could really crack, wasn't ruffled but his manager 'n trainer were gettin' more 'n more steamed. Finally, the red-faced manager told the blowhard to put a sock in it.

The wiseguy just got louder, trash-talking what he'd do to the kid if he was in the ring. The manager jumped on it: "Why don't you put your money where you mouth is! The book shot back: "How 'bout for ten large?

"Make it 20," the manager said.

"DONE!"

It was arranged after the gym was closed. Three rounds with ten-ounce gloves, no headgear. The owner of the gym held the stake.

The wiseguy showed-up smokin' a cigar, stuffed like sausage into a stadium-sized track suit.

The Jr. feather, in trunks, was cool as ice in his corner.

The bell rang and the book thundered across the ring windmillin' haymakers. The fighter slipped a right and dug a left hook -- WHUMP! into the book's gut. Sounded like Marciano hit the heavy bag.

The book did a belly flop into the canvas, and lay motionless. We thought he was dead. Half the guys there were on parole, so they ran like hell.


----------



## Boogle McDougal

^^^

Hilarious. You ever run outta stories?

"Who the fuck is Angelo Saxon? I'll break his ass!" 

that gets me all the time :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## wrimc

I love the way you paint a picture with your words JG. Each one is like a little episode i see running in my mind. Have you ever had any run ins with some of the unsavoury characters that are on the fringes of the fight game JG?


----------



## john garfield

wrimc said:


> I love the way you paint a picture with your words JG. Each one is like a little episode i see running in my mind. Have you ever had any run ins with some of the unsavoury characters that are on the fringes of the fight game JG?


This should answer your question, wrimc

*MOB ENFORCER WANTS TO THANK ME*

In the '70s and '80s, I had a boxing gym 'n amateur team with trainer Tommy Gallagher in South Queens, N.Y., financed largely by local merchants 'n doctors and lawyers who wanted to keep the kids off the street.

It was soup to nuts. All free: boxing gear and equipment, fitted mouth pieces 'n 100% medical/dental coverage. it was a great team. We won lots
Golden Gloves titles and some of the kids became pretty good pros.

In the early '80s, work took me to Los Angeles for good and Tommy ran the gym, keeping in touch by phone.

One day Tommy called saying one of the kid's father's wanted to thank me for looking after his kid when his nose was broken.

I told Tommy to thank him, saying we do that for every kid.

"You don't understand," Tommy said, "he wants to thank you."

I couldn't read between the lines. "What are you tryin' ta say, Tommy, just tell'm I appreciate it."

"NO! He wants to thank YOU personally." It was then Tommy told me the kid was the son of one of the most notorious mob hit men.

So, I called, hoping to get off the phone as quickly as possible.

"Ya took care of my Paulie, a gravel voice said, "I wanna thank you for that," and I repeated how we did that for every kid, trying to end the call.

"I'm in L.A a lot, he said, I'd like to come by and thank you personally, maybe grab a bite," he said. "Sure. Sure," I said, like one would say, "if you're ever in Madagascar drop by", figuring I wouldn't hear from him again.

Several weeks later, the recptionsit called and whispered. "There are two scary looking men here to see you."

She was right. At the reception desk were two monoliths right outta central casting for THE GODFATHER: black silk suits 'n shirts, sun glasses, no socks 'n expensive shoes.

They turned to me. "Mr. Big would like to see you downstairs." I told the receptionist I'd be back. Her look said, she wasn't so sure. The leg breakers flanked me on the elevator, expressionless.

At the curb was a block-long limo with black tinted windows. The door swung open, 'n the fearsome killer on every most-wanted list stared me in the face. He affectionately put his arm around my neck pulling me into the limo next to him, pinchin my cheek, like an infant. "This is the guy that took care of my Paulie!," he repeated to the gorillas up front. Now they were all smiles.

"Let's go to my office where we can talk," Mr. Big said.

In a nondescript building on the Wilshire corridor, we went to the penthouse in private elevator.

When the door opened, Mr.Big put his arm round my neck again, announcing to a room fulla guys who looked 'n dressed like the ones that picked me up 'n Pamela Anderson look-alikes, "This is the guy that took care of my Paulie!"

That was like saying, "Open Sesami!"

They all crowded 'round me, anxious to hear my pearls of wisdom, laughing at everything thing I said.

It went on like that for a couple hours, with Mr. Big constantly patting me on th back, when a nagging voice in my head said, "When is one 'em gonna do a Joe Pesci 'n say, "Funny how?", 'n turn on me like bad drunk.

Mr. Big joined me in the limo back to my office, saying, "Do you have any union problems?...any problems?" "No, I said,' shuddering at what I might set in motion.

There after, he called me periodically asking if I had any problems. More than once when someone cut me off in traffic, I was tempted to call him.


----------



## wrimc

@john garfield that is outstanding! Exactly what I was looking for! How do you keep your cool in a situation like that. The "funny how" Joe Pesci moment would be running through my mind over and over! Get too relaxed in the situation, say the wrong thing, end up in four different pieces spread across town.


----------



## doug.ie

john garfield said:


> It went on like that for a couple hours, with Mr. Big constantly patting me on th back, when a nagging voice in my head said, "When is one 'em gonna do a Joe Pesci 'n say, "Funny how?", 'n turn on me like bad drunk.




simply superb JG.


----------



## Post Box

john garfield said:


> *WISEGUY CALLS-OUT A PRO*
> 
> Saw this at a gym in N.Y. frequented by alotta wiseguys
> in the early '70s.
> 
> A three-time 122-pound Golden Gloves Champion and top-five pro contender was sparring, 'n a mountain-of-a bookmaker/leg-breaker (easily six-three, pushin' 300 pounds) -- grandstanding for his goombahs -- kept shoutin' cracks ("I'd squash ya like bug" -- blah blah blah)
> 
> The fighter, who was about five-six 'n could really crack, wasn't ruffled but his manager 'n trainer were gettin' more 'n more steamed. Finally, the red-faced manager told the blowhard to put a sock in it.
> 
> The wiseguy just got louder, trash-talking what he'd do to the kid if he was in the ring. The manager jumped on it: "Why don't you put your money where you mouth is! The book shot back: "How 'bout for ten large?
> 
> "Make it 20," the manager said.
> 
> "DONE!"
> 
> It was arranged after the gym was closed. Three rounds with ten-ounce gloves, no headgear. The owner of the gym held the stake.
> 
> The wiseguy showed-up smokin' a cigar, stuffed like sausage into a stadium-sized track suit.
> 
> The Jr. feather, in trunks, was cool as ice in his corner.
> 
> The bell rang and the book thundered across the ring windmillin' haymakers. The fighter slipped a right and dug a left hook -- WHUMP! into the book's gut. Sounded like Marciano hit the heavy bag.
> 
> The book did a belly flop into the canvas, and lay motionless. We thought he was dead. *Half the guys there were on parole, so they ran like hell.*


:rofl:rofl:rofl No surprises that the trained fighter laid him out, ridiculous how some people believe they can even last a couple rounds with a boxer.

Also really enjoyed the Toney and Hopkins reads that I just went over.


----------



## john garfield

Post Box said:


> :rofl:rofl:rofl No surprises that the trained fighter laid him out, ridiculous how some people believe they can even last a couple rounds with a boxer.
> 
> Also really enjoyed the Toney and Hopkins reads that I just went over.


Keep comin' back, PB. We aims ta please


----------



## Farooq

Some brilliant stuff on here JG. You paint such a vivid picture, I could read these all day and not get bored. Cheers.


----------



## john garfield

Farooq said:


> Some brilliant stuff on here JG. You paint such a vivid picture, I could read these all day and not get bored. Cheers.


welcome words before coffee, F. Come back regular 'n bring your mates.


----------



## Luf

I think you should definitely combine these memoirs into a book JG.

A highlight of my day is getting back from school and logging into this site seeing what new treats await me :good


----------



## Strike

Great stuff as always John.


----------



## john garfield

lufcrazy said:


> I think you should definitely combine these memoirs into a book JG.
> 
> A highlight of my day is getting back from school and logging into this site seeing what new treats await me :good


Wish I could be back in school, not doin' my homework, l.

With this kind of encouragement, I'll make sure ya have plennya high-calorie treats.


----------



## Luf

john garfield said:


> Wish I could be back in school, not doin' my homework, l.
> 
> With this kind of encouragement, I'll make sure ya have plennya high-calorie treats.


well I'm the one setting and reluctantly marking that homework JG.

yeah definitely keep em comin!


----------



## Lunny

john garfield said:


> *WISEGUY CALLS-OUT A PRO*
> 
> Saw this at a gym in N.Y. frequented by alotta wiseguys
> in the early '70s.
> 
> A three-time 122-pound Golden Gloves Champion and top-five pro contender was sparring, 'n a mountain-of-a bookmaker/leg-breaker (easily six-three, pushin' 300 pounds) -- grandstanding for his goombahs -- kept shoutin' cracks ("I'd squash ya like bug" -- blah blah blah)
> 
> The fighter, who was about five-six 'n could really crack, wasn't ruffled but his manager 'n trainer were gettin' more 'n more steamed. Finally, the red-faced manager told the blowhard to put a sock in it.
> 
> The wiseguy just got louder, trash-talking what he'd do to the kid if he was in the ring. The manager jumped on it: "Why don't you put your money where you mouth is! The book shot back: "How 'bout for ten large?
> 
> "Make it 20," the manager said.
> 
> "DONE!"
> 
> It was arranged after the gym was closed. Three rounds with ten-ounce gloves, no headgear. The owner of the gym held the stake.
> 
> The wiseguy showed-up smokin' a cigar, stuffed like sausage into a stadium-sized track suit.
> 
> The Jr. feather, in trunks, was cool as ice in his corner.
> 
> The bell rang and the book thundered across the ring windmillin' haymakers. The fighter slipped a right and dug a left hook -- WHUMP! into the book's gut. Sounded like Marciano hit the heavy bag.
> 
> The book did a belly flop into the canvas, and lay motionless. We thought he was dead. Half the guys there were on parole, so they ran like hell.


:rofl:rofl:rofl This story's got me grinning like a simpleton. Great stuff.


----------



## john garfield

Lunny said:


> :rofl:rofl:rofl This story's got me grinning like a simpleton. Great stuff.


Mention it to your mates, L. The more the merrier.


----------



## john garfield

As an inducement to stop here first, think I'm gonna give away dishes, comic books 'n tighten the brakes on your car.


----------



## Del Boy

Finally got around to reading the latest John, was a good short read, not surpised at the outcome ive met guy like the wise guy plenty of times and seen the same outcome, everytime they think that boxers can only box makes me laugh every time


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> Finally got around to reading the latest John, was a good short read, not surpised at the outcome ive met guy like the wise guy plenty of times and seen the same outcome, everytime they think that boxers can only box makes me laugh every time


Gladya got to it and for your comments,DB. You're absolutely right. The story's almost too cliched and expected to be true. But with all the colorful characters, it was ripe for telling; 'n I always wanna put readers ringside.

Anybody who's never put on gloves -- with a roadmap of tats and beach muscles -- has no idea how vulnerable he is in a ring, even facing off with a tomato can. The smug look he walked in with is soon replaced by fear, confusion, blood and pain -- very different from sucker-punching some one in a pub.

Think I'll put up a story I'll call RITE OF PASSAGE of how a well-trained amateur,or gym rat, eventually is tabbed by his trainer to box with the loud-mouth brute he'd have shied from in the street.

Also, since your from Ireland, before putting up more Bernard Dunne pieces, think you'll get a kick out of the lengths Irish supporters went to to back their man in an old fashioned smoker at the Wild Card Gym.


----------



## doug.ie

JG...out of curiosty...an irish boxer i speak about a lot...and who fought at the garden a lot....sean mannion...fought mike mccallum for the light middle world title at the garden in 84......you know of him ??


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> JG...out of curiosty...an irish boxer i speak about a lot...and who fought at the garden a lot....sean mannion...fought mike mccallum for the light middle world title at the garden in 84......you know of him ??


Normally, doug, don't like ta talk about a guy I've never see train or fight live. But, I do have an instant impression of Mannion off the one time I saw him on TV.

Had a mug the image of Canelo Alvares. Plucky southpaw. kinda jittery. Not a wunderkin, but certainly no shrinking violet; 'n wouldn't look for the door, if outclassed. He was like the old watch commercial: He could take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. Without an eraser, he had to.

Even losing, he'd make his fans proud -- determined to go home on his shield, if he had to.


----------



## john garfield

*THE SMOKER KEEPS THE FLAME ALIVE*

If the looks on the faces of the families that showed up for an old-fashioned smoker at Freddie Roach's Wild Card Gym in Los Angeles is any indication, boxing's very much alive.

In this tiny spot in the heart of Hollywood above a Chinese laundry, it was the 1940s again in every settlement house and church in Brooklyn and the Bronx -- including fighters with names like "The Asian Tiger," "Repo Man," and "Bugsy."

There were 13 bouts scheduled -- three two-minute rounds, with 12-ounce gloves and headgears. Since they were unsanctioned by the AAU, every great fighter from the '20s through the '70s served his apprenticeship in smokers without risking his amateur record. Many of boxing's hardcore fans got their addiction by lacing'em-up as kids in smokers.

Downstairs in the parking lot, with cars being jockeyed like a Rubik's Cube, a trainer cooked-up franks.

The gym very quickly looked like it was going to collapse into the laundry under the weight of all the bodies pushing to get a better view of the ring. Some stood on tables and chairs. Some stood above the others without any visible means of support. The mood was like Mariachi music.

Though it was a bracing fall evening outside, it was quickly a sauna in the gym, without a centimeter to breathe -- people peeling down to T-shirts.

Brian Viloria and Manny Pacquiao, laughing and signing autographs, were acting as judges.

Roach was the referee; his brother, Pep, was a second and his mother was one of the other judges. Hollywood celebs lined ringside, and local fighters and trainers sprinkled the crowd -- that looked like ten pounds in a five-pound bag.

It was an adrenaline rush for three hours - raucous, profane&#8230;old friends and opponents ragging each other - eyes lit up, rolling back the years.

93-year-old trainer Eddie Cousins hadn't slowed a bit climbing into the ring, furiously demonstrating what his charges needed to do.

There was one moment when the crowd booed a decision for a fighter that Pep was handling. He gave them the finger. They booed even louder. Pep stood on the ring apron, dropped his pants and mooned them roundly.

Laughter shook the building. People rocked in their seats, stamping their feet. The pure joy was like a sports bar when the home team wins the World Series. That alone was worth the $5. It was the fix that satisfied the Jones of every old-school boxing junkie.

Mario Lopez, the actor and TV personality, sporting the handle "Bazooka," was a big surprise to those who didn't know how seriously he took boxing. With his black headgear with the bar across the front and his powerful build, he looked like Spartacus.

"The Jersey Kid," his opponent, must have felt he'd been ganged up on by what seemed the entire Lopez family -- all with one face -- who jumped up and down at ringside, taking pictures, shouting encouragement and swinging along with every punch Mario threw.

Lopez wasn't just a fired-up swinger: He showed what he'd learned in the many rounds with James Toney and Shane Mosley, pivoting left and right inside for the best angles and leverage. He was patient, didn't lunge, and threw multiple left hooks and accurate, short lead rights.

Lopez not only landed with the kind of punches that made the crowd go "OOH!" he showed enough meanness that he had to be warned several times by Roach for unnecessary roughness.

"The Jersey Kid" hung in there tough but he was outgunned and overpowered.

When Lopez was announced the winner, and the little bronze medal on the red and white ribbon was placed 'round his neck, he flashed a mega-watt smile that couldn't have been broader if he'd won the Academy Award.

There must have been a sudden exodus from Dublin, when "Irish Man" battled "The Russian Sleeping Pill." Rows of lads who'd had more than a few to drink -- wrapped in the Irish flag -- chanted, "Irish!" "Irish!" Some scruffy leprechauns feeling no pain smushed their faces against the gym's second-story window screens -- all but inaccessible from the ground -- yelling "Irish Man! Irish Man!" at a level that would normally summon the police to a domestic disturbance.

The crowd warmed to anybody that showed heart, and were no less appreciative of the female bout. "The Moroccan Princess" and "Killer" staged their own version of Gatti-Ward 1

When "The Bruiser" was in a grueling struggle with Danny "The Man," "The Bruiser's" mother stood near me wringing a handkerchief and tensing with his every effort. "Yes, my son!" she repeated, tears welling in her eyes when he was given a majority decision.

After conferring with Freddie Roach, the ring announcer said: because his opponent didn't show up, seven-year-old Steven Ayala was declared the winner in his 57-pound match.

With the medal around his neck, Steven was encouraged by Roach to shadowbox for the crowd. He looked like a scale-model Ricardo Lopez, throwing perfectly executed, blurring combinations. The cheers grew as the crowd took him to their heart.

After the naming of the Best Boxer of The Night, and the Most Courageous, the crowd filed out, still buzzing with the evening's excitement. Mario Lopez -- medal still around his neck - posed for snapshots with his arm around a beaming fan.

Trainer Eric Brown turned to me: "We should do it in the parking lot next time. We could fill it." There was no question in my mind.

The demise of boxing seems much less likely after seeing the growing dream in the eyes of young Steven Ayala as he left the ring holding his medal up for his dad to see.


----------



## Strike

Great stuff John, sounds like a quality night.


----------



## doug.ie

is eddie cousins still alive JG?...tell me more about him


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> is eddie cousins still alive JG?...tell me more about him


Hadn't met Eddie Cousins in my travels 'round California gyms or at the fights, doug, but the fans, fighters and trainers at the smoker greeted him very enthusiastically, either because they did know him or were applauding how spry he was getting in and out of the corner.

Think I read Eddie passed, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


----------



## Lunny

Love it.


----------



## Flea Man

Quality!


----------



## DrMo

Great stuff as always John, any tales you could share about Mosely?


----------



## Laughing Bruno

john garfield said:


> *This is for those that wanna know what Roberto Duran's really like:*
> 
> When Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center.
> 
> It was summertime, and sweltering. Every Latino worker in the area-- and their families -- watched their hero train at lunchtime.
> 
> The gym was a steam room -- jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. They pressed so close Duran barely had room for floor exercises. When he was done, he jumped in the ring to shadow box.
> 
> Spanning what looked like a crowded subway car, you could see chests swell - faces beaming with pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood at the ring apron, while their little ones looked up saucer-eyed at this God.
> 
> In the midst of this outpouring of love, somebody in the back -- unbelievably! -- kept shouting at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!
> 
> Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!"
> 
> Finally, Duran fixed him with a glare, stretched as far over the ropes as he could -- just above the glowing faces of mothers and toddlers -- and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY COCK!"


heh heh heh


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> Great stuff as always John, any tales you could share about Mosely?


lemme reach back 'n see, DM


----------



## john garfield

Laughing Bruno said:


> *heh heh heh*


That response is better than paragraphs, LB


----------



## Michael

john garfield said:


> *THE SMOKER KEEPS THE FLAME ALIVE*
> 
> If the looks on the faces of the families that showed up for an old-fashioned smoker at Freddie Roach's Wild Card Gym in Los Angeles is any indication, boxing's very much alive.
> 
> In this tiny spot in the heart of Hollywood above a Chinese laundry, it was the 1940s again in every settlement house and church in Brooklyn and the Bronx -- including fighters with names like "The Asian Tiger," "Repo Man," and "Bugsy."
> 
> There were 13 bouts scheduled -- three two-minute rounds, with 12-ounce gloves and headgears. Since they were unsanctioned by the AAU, every great fighter from the '20s through the '70s served his apprenticeship in smokers without risking his amateur record. Many of boxing's hardcore fans got their addiction by lacing'em-up as kids in smokers.
> 
> Downstairs in the parking lot, with cars being jockeyed like a Rubik's Cube, a trainer cooked-up franks.
> 
> The gym very quickly looked like it was going to collapse into the laundry under the weight of all the bodies pushing to get a better view of the ring. Some stood on tables and chairs. Some stood above the others without any visible means of support. The mood was like Mariachi music.
> 
> Though it was a bracing fall evening outside, it was quickly a sauna in the gym, without a centimeter to breathe -- people peeling down to T-shirts.
> 
> Brian Viloria and Manny Pacquiao, laughing and signing autographs, were acting as judges.
> 
> Roach was the referee; his brother, Pep, was a second and his mother was one of the other judges. Hollywood celebs lined ringside, and local fighters and trainers sprinkled the crowd -- that looked like ten pounds in a five-pound bag.
> 
> It was an adrenaline rush for three hours - raucous, profane&#8230;old friends and opponents ragging each other - eyes lit up, rolling back the years.
> 
> 93-year-old trainer Eddie Cousins hadn't slowed a bit climbing into the ring, furiously demonstrating what his charges needed to do.
> 
> There was one moment when the crowd booed a decision for a fighter that Pep was handling. He gave them the finger. They booed even louder. Pep stood on the ring apron, dropped his pants and mooned them roundly.
> 
> Laughter shook the building. People rocked in their seats, stamping their feet. The pure joy was like a sports bar when the home team wins the World Series. That alone was worth the $5. It was the fix that satisfied the Jones of every old-school boxing junkie.
> 
> Mario Lopez, the actor and TV personality, sporting the handle "Bazooka," was a big surprise to those who didn't know how seriously he took boxing. With his black headgear with the bar across the front and his powerful build, he looked like Spartacus.
> 
> "The Jersey Kid," his opponent, must have felt he'd been ganged up on by what seemed the entire Lopez family -- all with one face -- who jumped up and down at ringside, taking pictures, shouting encouragement and swinging along with every punch Mario threw.
> 
> Lopez wasn't just a fired-up swinger: He showed what he'd learned in the many rounds with James Toney and Shane Mosley, pivoting left and right inside for the best angles and leverage. He was patient, didn't lunge, and threw multiple left hooks and accurate, short lead rights.
> 
> Lopez not only landed with the kind of punches that made the crowd go "OOH!" he showed enough meanness that he had to be warned several times by Roach for unnecessary roughness.
> 
> "The Jersey Kid" hung in there tough but he was outgunned and overpowered.
> 
> When Lopez was announced the winner, and the little bronze medal on the red and white ribbon was placed 'round his neck, he flashed a mega-watt smile that couldn't have been broader if he'd won the Academy Award.
> 
> There must have been a sudden exodus from Dublin, when "Irish Man" battled "The Russian Sleeping Pill." Rows of lads who'd had more than a few to drink -- wrapped in the Irish flag -- chanted, "Irish!" "Irish!" Some scruffy leprechauns feeling no pain smushed their faces against the gym's second-story window screens -- all but inaccessible from the ground -- yelling "Irish Man! Irish Man!" at a level that would normally summon the police to a domestic disturbance.
> 
> The crowd warmed to anybody that showed heart, and were no less appreciative of the female bout. "The Moroccan Princess" and "Killer" staged their own version of Gatti-Ward 1
> 
> When "The Bruiser" was in a grueling struggle with Danny "The Man," "The Bruiser's" mother stood near me wringing a handkerchief and tensing with his every effort. "Yes, my son!" she repeated, tears welling in her eyes when he was given a majority decision.
> 
> After conferring with Freddie Roach, the ring announcer said: because his opponent didn't show up, seven-year-old Steven Ayala was declared the winner in his 57-pound match.
> 
> With the medal around his neck, Steven was encouraged by Roach to shadowbox for the crowd. He looked like a scale-model Ricardo Lopez, throwing perfectly executed, blurring combinations. The cheers grew as the crowd took him to their heart.
> 
> After the naming of the Best Boxer of The Night, and the Most Courageous, the crowd filed out, still buzzing with the evening's excitement. Mario Lopez -- medal still around his neck - posed for snapshots with his arm around a beaming fan.
> 
> Trainer Eric Brown turned to me: "We should do it in the parking lot next time. We could fill it." There was no question in my mind.
> 
> The demise of boxing seems much less likely after seeing the growing dream in the eyes of young Steven Ayala as he left the ring holding his medal up for his dad to see.


Sounds great. I guess the equivalent of smokers we have over are community hall/club shows. Have fought in a couple of them myself and there's always a great atmosphere. Only about 60 or 70 people in the crowd but it feels like way more. Great support shown for local lads aswell and people of every age involved in them. Its really gives you a taste of how boxing is so good to compete in:good


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Sounds great. I guess the equivalent of smokers we have over are community hall/club shows. Have fought in a couple of them myself and there's always a great atmosphere. Only about 60 or 70 people in the crowd but it feels like way more. Great support shown for local lads aswell and people of every age involved in them. Its really gives you a taste of how boxing is so good to compete in:good


Ifya felt ringside,S, it's my best reward


----------



## Twelvey

Every few days I drop in here and it never disappoints JG :good 
I love the one about the smoker, reminds me of teddy atlas' bio. Got any stories about teddy JG?


----------



## Robney

Quality stuff again JG :good


----------



## john garfield

12downfor10 said:


> Every few days I drop in here and it never disappoints JG :good
> I love the one about the smoker, reminds me of teddy atlas' bio. Got any stories about teddy JG?


I'll tryta keep up the standard, 12.

Never met Teddy (which even surprise me, being aroun' the game since the Stone Age)

The assumption is -- like show business -- that everyone knows each other. Just word-of-mouth 'n seeing him on TV is all I know about him.


----------



## john garfield

Robney said:


> Quality stuff again JG :good


This ain't no cut-rate joint, Robney; only quality here.


----------



## john garfield

check-out SAVE THE TIGER, that I inadvertently posted as a separate thread.


----------



## Drew101

Awesome read, as per usual, JG! :good


----------



## Hook!

john garfield said:


> *THE SMOKER KEEPS THE FLAME ALIVE*
> 
> If the looks on the faces of the families that showed up for an old-fashioned smoker at Freddie Roach's Wild Card Gym in Los Angeles is any indication, boxing's very much alive.
> 
> In this tiny spot in the heart of Hollywood above a Chinese laundry, it was the 1940s again in every settlement house and church in Brooklyn and the Bronx -- including fighters with names like "The Asian Tiger," "Repo Man," and "Bugsy."
> 
> There were 13 bouts scheduled -- three two-minute rounds, with 12-ounce gloves and headgears. Since they were unsanctioned by the AAU, every great fighter from the '20s through the '70s served his apprenticeship in smokers without risking his amateur record. Many of boxing's hardcore fans got their addiction by lacing'em-up as kids in smokers.
> 
> Downstairs in the parking lot, with cars being jockeyed like a Rubik's Cube, a trainer cooked-up franks.
> 
> The gym very quickly looked like it was going to collapse into the laundry under the weight of all the bodies pushing to get a better view of the ring. Some stood on tables and chairs. Some stood above the others without any visible means of support. The mood was like Mariachi music.
> 
> Though it was a bracing fall evening outside, it was quickly a sauna in the gym, without a centimeter to breathe -- people peeling down to T-shirts.
> 
> Brian Viloria and Manny Pacquiao, laughing and signing autographs, were acting as judges.
> 
> Roach was the referee; his brother, Pep, was a second and his mother was one of the other judges. Hollywood celebs lined ringside, and local fighters and trainers sprinkled the crowd -- that looked like ten pounds in a five-pound bag.
> 
> It was an adrenaline rush for three hours - raucous, profane&#8230;old friends and opponents ragging each other - eyes lit up, rolling back the years.
> 
> 93-year-old trainer Eddie Cousins hadn't slowed a bit climbing into the ring, furiously demonstrating what his charges needed to do.
> 
> There was one moment when the crowd booed a decision for a fighter that Pep was handling. He gave them the finger. They booed even louder. Pep stood on the ring apron, dropped his pants and mooned them roundly.
> 
> Laughter shook the building. People rocked in their seats, stamping their feet. The pure joy was like a sports bar when the home team wins the World Series. That alone was worth the $5. It was the fix that satisfied the Jones of every old-school boxing junkie.
> 
> Mario Lopez, the actor and TV personality, sporting the handle "Bazooka," was a big surprise to those who didn't know how seriously he took boxing. With his black headgear with the bar across the front and his powerful build, he looked like Spartacus.
> 
> "The Jersey Kid," his opponent, must have felt he'd been ganged up on by what seemed the entire Lopez family -- all with one face -- who jumped up and down at ringside, taking pictures, shouting encouragement and swinging along with every punch Mario threw.
> 
> Lopez wasn't just a fired-up swinger: He showed what he'd learned in the many rounds with James Toney and Shane Mosley, pivoting left and right inside for the best angles and leverage. He was patient, didn't lunge, and threw multiple left hooks and accurate, short lead rights.
> 
> Lopez not only landed with the kind of punches that made the crowd go "OOH!" he showed enough meanness that he had to be warned several times by Roach for unnecessary roughness.
> 
> "The Jersey Kid" hung in there tough but he was outgunned and overpowered.
> 
> When Lopez was announced the winner, and the little bronze medal on the red and white ribbon was placed 'round his neck, he flashed a mega-watt smile that couldn't have been broader if he'd won the Academy Award.
> 
> There must have been a sudden exodus from Dublin, when "Irish Man" battled "The Russian Sleeping Pill." Rows of lads who'd had more than a few to drink -- wrapped in the Irish flag -- chanted, "Irish!" "Irish!" Some scruffy leprechauns feeling no pain smushed their faces against the gym's second-story window screens -- all but inaccessible from the ground -- yelling "Irish Man! Irish Man!" at a level that would normally summon the police to a domestic disturbance.
> 
> The crowd warmed to anybody that showed heart, and were no less appreciative of the female bout. "The Moroccan Princess" and "Killer" staged their own version of Gatti-Ward 1
> 
> When "The Bruiser" was in a grueling struggle with Danny "The Man," "The Bruiser's" mother stood near me wringing a handkerchief and tensing with his every effort. "Yes, my son!" she repeated, tears welling in her eyes when he was given a majority decision.
> 
> After conferring with Freddie Roach, the ring announcer said: because his opponent didn't show up, seven-year-old Steven Ayala was declared the winner in his 57-pound match.
> 
> With the medal around his neck, Steven was encouraged by Roach to shadowbox for the crowd. He looked like a scale-model Ricardo Lopez, throwing perfectly executed, blurring combinations. The cheers grew as the crowd took him to their heart.
> 
> After the naming of the Best Boxer of The Night, and the Most Courageous, the crowd filed out, still buzzing with the evening's excitement. Mario Lopez -- medal still around his neck - posed for snapshots with his arm around a beaming fan.
> 
> Trainer Eric Brown turned to me: "We should do it in the parking lot next time. We could fill it." There was no question in my mind.
> 
> The demise of boxing seems much less likely after seeing the growing dream in the eyes of young Steven Ayala as he left the ring holding his medal up for his dad to see.


man how do you witness so much epicness!?


----------



## john garfield

Hook! said:


> man how do you witness so much epicness!?


Hope you'll keep comin' back for more, H


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## Hook!

john garfield said:


> Hope you'll keep comin' back for more, H


course i will, i didn't know where the thread was until you linked it to me!


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## john garfield

Hook! said:


> course i will, i didn't know where the thread was until you linked it to me!


Check out the earlier stories, H. Think you'll have a prime ringside seat.


----------



## Jim Bowen

JG, these are the best things to get through my days at work, keep up the top notch work fella.


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## Del Boy

You know john if i didn't trust you so much id swear youve been making these up  Just kidding they are always just so unbelievable for one man youve been very lucky to experiance all these john :good Thanks for another great read. 

I had no idea these sort of fights were actually practiced anymore but as you say its great for boxing that these events draw such crowds and have such big names like Pacquiao and Violora associated with them


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> You know john if i didn't trust you so much id swear youve been making these up  Just kidding they are always just so unbelievable for one man youve been very lucky to experiance all these john :good Thanks for another great read.
> 
> I had no idea these sort of fights were actually practiced anymore but as you say its great for boxing that these events draw such crowds and have such big names like Pacquiao and Violora associated with them


When I sit at a smoker, sparring or at a big card in Vegas or LA, DB, I still thank my stars and try to drink in every detail, so I can describe it to you as vividly as possible.


----------



## john garfield

Jim Bowen said:


> JG, these are the *best things to get through my days at work*, keep up the top notch work fella.


Music to my ears. Don't get fired, DB


----------



## Farooq

Another great piece. It's brilliant to just read through some of these stories, I can't begin to imagine how it must have been to experience them first hand. Cheers.


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## john garfield

Farooq said:


> Another great piece. It's brilliant to just read through some of these stories, I *can't begin to imagine how it must have been to experience them first hand*. Cheers.


Hopeya get a real sense of it, F. Tryin' my damndest ta putya ringside.


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## GazOC

Thanks for all these posts JG. It just occurred to me I was being pretty impolite by just lurking, reading them and not saying "cheers".


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## john garfield

GazOC said:


> Thanks for all these posts JG. It just occurred to me I was being pretty impolite by just lurking, reading them and not saying "cheers".


Ya needn't do anything but enjoy, GO

Will keep tryin' ta putya ringside


----------



## Hook!

john garfield said:


> *A TYPICAL JAMES TONEY KEYSTONE KOPS PRESS CONFERENCE*
> 
> Nostradamus would have a gimme with James Toney.
> 
> It's a medical problem: Knee-Jerk Zidane (a less pernicious strain of Duran-Tourette&#8230;sadly, incurable). But unlike ZZ, James only has flare-ups outside the ring. Canvas causes 47-minute remissions. For 23 hours, he's on earthquake watch -- a seismic event going someplace to happen.
> 
> The recent tremor was at the Palm restaurant in Los Angeles: a presser for Toney's WBC 12-round heavyweight eliminator on SHOWTIME CHAMPIONSHIP BOXING against Samuel "The Nigerian Nightmare" Peter on Sept. 2, tabbed NO RISK, NO REWARD, at STAPLES Center, just across the street.
> 
> Pressers are no-muss no-fuss: Get the information out. Above all, run smoothly; the pricey room's only booked for so long. Sure, there's supposed to be some salty quotes and face making for the morning editions (or nanoseconds later on the web) but nothing that changes the architecture of the building &#8230;a safe bet with Toney. He starts with irascible and brings new meaning to G Rated.
> 
> Plus, with his history, it's a re-hash -- just insert Peter's name. And, if you're under deadline, there's file-footage of Toney presser explosions. There's bound to be a 270-pounder; he flattens 'em for drill sparring at Wild Card&#8230; A little Photoshop&#8230;who's to notice the difference? But, the temptation to see the happening live is too much.
> 
> After entrées that would make it criminal to write anything negative about the promotion, the media took seats in the front section of the banquet room, waiting for the curtain to go up. The principals, Samuel Peter, manager Ivaylo Gotzev and co-promoter Dino Duva took their places, with Dan Goossen, Toney's promoter, at the podium, and reps from SHOWTIME and STAPLES Center in attendance. Only Toney was conspicuous by his absence - like the champ making the challenger wait.
> 
> Goossen, checking his watch and the door for any sign of Lights Out, soft-shoed, soliciting questions. One no-clue Teletubbie piped up with queries that were to reporting what Julie Louis-Dreyfus was to dancing on Seinfeld.
> 
> The Toney circus arrived not a second too soon.
> 
> James, in shades and a Guys-'n'-Dolls butterscotch pinstripe tricked-out with enough diamonds and platinum to warrant the presser at Ft. Knox, was the ringmaster of the parade. Hip-hop "Pomp and Circumstance " befitted his arrival. Let the games begin in his swagger, impatience on his face -- a contrail of aggression in his wake.
> 
> Team Toney, a Felliniesque-aggregate of family, sparring partners and acolytes (the only thing missing were the acrobats) filled the remainder of the five rows of folding chairs and clogged the doorway, raising the buzz to a GM assembly line. No one just over 5'9" makes a bigger entrance.
> 
> Samuel Peter, big as he is, in a pinstripe that would cover Dodger Stadium, was invisible. It was like sharing the screen with Steve McQueen.
> 
> How's it feel fighting in L.A., Dawg?" one of JT's Detroit homies shouted.
> 
> "L.A. gonna be Detroit for one night," Toney beamed. "D Block in the house!"
> 
> The usual Alphonse 'n' Gaston ensued -- each side praising the other for taking the fight. We're not going to sink to the level of the others you've seen. Toney drummed on the table with his fingers.
> 
> When Peter mumbled in the cadence of South East Nigeria in response to how he'll do against Toney, a reporter blurted out, "I don't understand?" Toney crooked an eye, "He said he's gonna beat me. Next question!" (Redd Foxx couldn't have thrown it away better.) With every utterance, he strutted sitting down.
> He doesn't answer questions; he suffers them. It took more endurance to sit there than do 12 rounds.
> 
> The sniping picked up slowly, with Toney jabbing over Duva's remarks -- the needle sharper each time from both. Toney, shaking his head, s******************************ing - exasperated, "Talkin' about me like he gonna run through me like Swiss cheese." It was Groundhog Day for the 77th time. Caltech was warning a Magnitude 6.5.
> 
> Then, in a coup of statesmanship, Duva put a ten-ton straw on the camel's back.
> 
> With an eye to the box-office, after giving Toney faint praise for his skills; he called him "dumb" for taking the match.
> _Russian roulette with a live round_.
> 
> Warming to the task, Duva put sinew in it the second time, leaning closer to Toney from the podium.
> 
> "You talk a lot for a guy that's not getting in the ring, old man. You sound like you want to fight me," Toney spat.
> 
> From Goossen's swivel-around and lynch'm sentiments from Tonyites, Duva realized he may have stepped over the line and tried to smooth things. Looking at the mother of James's children - doing his best Rodney King, 'Why can't we all just get along?' Duva explained, "I didn't mean you when I called James dumb&#8230;" _Why isn't he patching things up in Lebanon? _
> 
> A shouting match between Toney, Duva and Gotzev escalated from predictable to out-of-control (which fits Toney better then "Lights Out"). Photogs scampered for angles. We were at DEFCON 3 - no Ali wink and nudge. (The tip-off to a faux show: the guy that goes berserk is usually in sweats, not an ad for Jacob The Jeweler.)
> 
> Adding fuel to the fire, a front-runner with the Toney hoards called-out Duva to bet on his man. "Pick your poison!" Toney snapped.
> He wanted at Duva and Gotzev, ripping off his jacket that cost more to tailor then most cars. He drew no distinction between Godzilla and milquetoast: a slight means being rendered limb-from-limb and ground to powder.
> 
> It took all of the king's horses and all of the king's men to restrain him; he was bucking like a Brahman. Goossen's eyes rolled, "Here we go again." Toney went from zero-to-Vesuvius, flinging a glass of water at Duva and Gotzev, spraying Goossen -- acting as honest broker -- and Peter, while he struggled to break free and disembowel the manager and promoter, knighted "Dumb and Dumber," by Goossen.
> 
> With a wall of muscle shielding them, Duva and Gotzev, (now looking like an enraged flamenco dancer) berated Toney at blood-oath intensity. (Shades of Johnny Friendly taunting Terry Malloy in ON THE WATERFRONT.) Their number three heavyweight contender -- damp suit, not withstanding -- didn't stampede to their defense. This wasn't his arena. "I do not do my fighting at a press conference," he said. "I do my fighting in the ring." (Succinct, if a little stilted, like his style.)
> 
> It may portend for the bout. We were in a no-man's land - no rules. Though Peter can separate a man from his senses (and his head from his body) with either hand, if it wasn't for his dam-busting power, he'd be one more lumbering brute drilled in a gym to box -- a learned fighter, a manager's hope to cash-in on heavyweight money, not a fast-twitch improviser like Toney.
> 
> On TV the scuffle's a giggle before the weather report. At Ground Zero, it's a bar brawl -- large bodies blurring by. The chaos is not the worry; it's the collateral damage.
> 
> While Toney was being bulldogged away by his camp, kicking, cursing and frothing, Goossen, ever the trooper in the midst of shot and shell, kept rattling-off attractive seating packages to the few that weren't caught up in the tsunami carrying Toney out of the room and down the staircase past wide-eyed business-lunchers and out the front door.
> 
> On the way out, some spit-balled precautions for James' next presser: maybe a Hannibal Lecter rig, or shackled like Sampson. Toney has a Bobby Knight-affect on questioners.
> 
> Jim Hill, the CBS Sports TV anchor, still nimble as his NFL cornerback days, kept a mic in Toney's face, dancing backwards down the stairs while The Bulls of Pamplona were thundering.
> 
> Out on the sidewalk, Toney, ringed by press poking mics like banderoles, bellowed and paced with the hell he was going to visit on Duva and Gotzev when they came out. All of it unintelligible, as if scrunched by a tight headgear.
> 
> Toney was at home: center stage - the man, roiling and boiling for a fight, as large and animated as the two-story figure of Kobe Bryant plastered on the side of the Palm.
> 
> Fed up with waiting for Gotzev and Duva to exit, Toney's claque left en mass like a swarm of killer bees, angrily buzzing.
> 
> The chickens eventually come home to roost. All of James's excesses will one day come due. But for one night in September, before injury and age claim him, get a glimpse of old school.


that's brilliant


----------



## john garfield

Hook! said:


> *that's brilliant*


How come my wife thinks I'm such a dim bulb, H


----------



## Hook!

john garfield said:


> How come my wife thinks I'm such a dim bulb, H


hahahaha legend, how old are you now mate?


----------



## john garfield

Hook! said:


> hahahaha legend, how old are you now mate?


21 till I look in the mirror, H. The lyin' piecea crap makes me look 76.


----------



## Hook!

john garfield said:


> 21 till I look in the mirror, H. The lyin' piecea crap makes me look 76.


hahaha, nice and comfortable retired?


----------



## john garfield

Hook! said:


> hahaha, nice and *comfortable retired*?


It tickles me when guys say they're _retired_. It always coincides with nobody wanting to hire 'em.


----------



## Jim Bowen

john garfield said:


> Music to my ears. Don't get fired, DB


Fortunately I'm actually allowed to now. This forum, the historic things on here and especially looking through this thread made my last couple of days fly by (only just been given the access to get on here).


----------



## doug.ie

why were you not allowed on ?


----------



## Jim Bowen

doug.ie said:


> why were you not allowed on ?


I'd only just started working there mate, some probation bollocks.


----------



## doug.ie

oh...right


----------



## john garfield

feelin' lonely. don't nobody wanna read more stories?


----------



## doug.ie

big fight night on the uk side of the pond JG...everyone glued to the telly.....4 channels showing boxing here


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> More Pep or more Toney? Sing out!


More Pep, john! More Pep!


----------



## Boogle McDougal

Didn't you say that you never really saw Pep train much? He was always goofin around or heading to a gin mill or some such?


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> Didn't you say that you never really saw Pep train much? He was always goofin around or heading to a gin mill or some such?


Willie only came to the gym ta do stand-up 'n kill time before goin' to the track, B. 
He could flit to OOHs and AAHs -- drunk out of his brain -- on auto pilot


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> Willie only came to the gym ta do stand-up 'n kill time before goin' to the track, B.
> He could flit to OOHs and AAHs -- drunk out of his brain -- on auto pilot


That's absurd. He must have done something in the gym to come back from that plane crash. Dios mio!


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> That's absurd. He must have done something in the gym to come back from that plane crash. Dios mio!


In the '40s, B, it wasn't unusual for guys ta burn the candle at both ends 'n in the middle -- fight just for booze money. That's what Zivic and Jenkins did, 'n said fuck-it to loses. Willie matched Zivic 'n Jenkins drink for drink, but he was so blessed -- fused spine, one leg shorter 'n more than half in the bag -- he still conducted boxing master classes against the toughest in his division.


----------



## Chatty

john garfield said:


> In the '40s, B, it wasn't unusual for guys ta burn the candle at both ends 'n in the middle -- fight just for booze money. That's what Zivic and Jenkins did, 'n said fuck-it to loses. Willie matched Zivic 'n Jenkins drink for drink, but he was so blessed -- fused spine, one leg shorter 'n more than half in the bag -- he still conducted boxing master classes against the toughest in his division.


You know much about LaMotta's claims that he drank half a bottle of brandy before fighting Robinson the sixth time. having watched the fight, if he did drink that then he was someboy because he still put up a good fight.

Was their many others supposedly happy to jump in the ring after a tipple?


----------



## john garfield

chatty said:


> You know much about LaMotta's claims that he drank half a bottle of brandy before fighting Robinson the sixth time. having watched the fight, if he did drink that then he was someboy because he still put up a good fight.
> 
> Was their many others supposedly happy to jump in the ring after a tipple?


Can't swear to Jake's claim,c, but it was pretty common-place at that time. Every fighter 'n trainer drank like fish -- but for Tunney -- and smoked like chimneys. It's what tough mugs were supposed to do; and fighters out-did each other ta be the Alpha.


----------



## john garfield

*WINKY WRIGHT* 
"Believe me, when he miss, he gonna get a hard one back"

While more buildings were coming down than a special FX movie, and there were sinkholes the size of Niagara Falls in the worst deluge to drown L.A. in over 100 years, Don King brought his medicine show to the Century Plaza Hotel on February 10 to beat the drum for the May 14 HBO Pay-Per-View middleweight 12-rounder between Felix "Tito" Trinidad and Winky Wright at the MGM Grand Gardens Arena in Las Vegas.

The Century Plaza is glass and marble, and it costs as much to park as a ringside seat at the old Garden.

With the aid of GPS, I navigated the subterranean maze to the meeting room -- half expecting to run into Hitler and Eva Braun. DKP roadies had dressed the space for the occasion: a large black cloth with white letters shouted Trinidad vs. Wright at the back wall, extending the length of the table in front for the fighters and their teams on a raised dais. A lectern in the middle was the DMZ for the opposing camps.

There was a smattering of press that braved the weather, nibbling at the buffet table and schmoosing for an hour. It was interrupted by the rustle of chairs and bodies that usually signaled a bar fight, but in this case, a media frenzy around Winky Wright.

Wright answered the same questions he'd been asked every day on this press tour from Puerto Rico, to New York to L.A, and onto Vegas, the next stop. He was as enthusiastic as being at an in-laws wedding.

Tito was in a knot of media on the other side of the room, and questions were being interpreted for him. It was curious seeing his face round to a smile in recognition of someone's attempt at a joke. The reporters took their cue and laughed along the way middle management does when the boss lights up.

Trinidad fielded one hardball query after another: Did he like baseball? &#8230; Did he eat a lot of ice cream while he was away for two years?

He looked a little puffy in the face, and admitted to 170. His hair was styled in short spikes -- very different from his Grace Jones look cutting a swath through the welterweights.

Than, like paparazzi scattering at a Madonna sighting, the swarm headed for a rumbling laugh. The electric locks of Don King were unmistakable above reporters with out-stretched mics like beggars asking for a handout. Flashbulbs lit-King-up from every angle. His smile, permanent as the Joker's. His Jessie Jackson rhyme scheme had no breaths, and he pressed the flesh and made eye contact with everybody in the huddle.

It was reminiscent of Santa greeting children in a department store. He did everything but boom, "HO! HO! HO!"

"Hey, Jimmy, what's happenin?' King greeted Jim Grey, former NFL defensive back and now sports anchor on CBS-TV, announcing proudly, "He gives distinguishment to this promotion."

Every one of King's Trinidad answers was preceded by a flourish of the Puerto Rican flag as broad as semaphoring a jet on a carrier, and the clarion call, VIVA PUERTO RICO! VIVA PUERTO RICO! With as much emphasis on correct inflection to satisfy the most demanding Latino.

He leaned-in benignly for a photo-op with a slight Asian man, who was giddy at the encounter, nodding endlessly, "Thank you", "Thank you", as he backed away. It was as if he had an audience with the Pope.

King, with his ubiquitous, hand-painted denim jacket with more reflective surfaces than a disco ball and two Super Bowl-sized rings on his left hand with more ice than a champagne bucket, one doesn't expect anything weightier than, "50 Beautiful Girl! 50!" Big mistake.

In the middle of his scatter-gun non sequesters and references to Bob Arum as "Lonesome Bob," his genius for figures, PPV, distribution, grosses, nets, house records, and generating future events, makes it clear why he's so formidable. "They don't give a black man credit for having any common sense&#8230; only perverted sense," he remarks.

Dismiss him as a clown; he'll have you for lunch. If there's anything fake about him it's that he's 25 masquerading as a septuagenarian.

Wright, after the two highest-profile victories of his career against Shane Mosley, must relate to Rodney Dangerfield's: "I get no respect!" He sat impassively at the dais when all the press raced to Trinidad on the other side. Had it been a ferry, it would have tipped over.

This was the third leg of the promotional tour in three days and thousands of miles, and all involved were having difficulty keeping the act fresh. Like political candidates mouthing the same stump speech, Winky and Tito said everything to convince all of the mayhem they would visit on each other - show "no mercy!"

But these are elite prizefighters, not hucksters. Their degrees are in pain, not marketing. They do their best work in the ring. There was nothing visceral. No ears bitten&#8230;babies threatened.

"People always tell me, Wright said, "How you gonna come an fight when you don't dislike nobody. You don't talk trash. I dislike Vargas some the way he runs his mouth. It ain't about talkin' trash. If it was about talkin' trash, whoever talked the best trash would be the champion. It's about throwing punches&#8230;knowing how to fight. I won't let my mouth do the talkin'; I let my hands do the talkin'. He got a good punch, but I'll be movin' up so I'll get some strength, too. I'm not standing there to test how hard he hits. I ain't out here to show people if I can take a punch&#8230;Be stupid to be knocked out for nothing. I'm gonna dip and dart. Believe me, when he miss, he gonna get a hard one back. I'm not no big puncher, but I'm gonna throw a lot of punches to hurt you."

King and Gary Shaw, Wright's manager/promoter, did their lounge act of deriding each other and saying what their fighter is going to do to the other. Shaw, grey-haired, with a passing resemblance for Shecky Green, is direct, spare with his words, and impresses as an efficient CEO, with a solid board of directors at his elbow on the dais.

King's opening Salvo was: "He (Shaw) set fire to the press conference in New York. We take no prisoners in the City of Angeles. My side is prepared for war. After we get through knocking out Winky, there will be a coming together - and he's the adversarial promoter. The camaraderie and conviviality will be second to none."

"I'll let Gary Shaw have his speech before I go into the soliloquy of victory."

Shaw, still seated, shot back: "Your guy is going down! On the 15th, they'll know Wright was wrong - wrong choice to pick. King cut in, "If fighting you is wrong, then we don't want to be Wright.

Shaw pushed on, "Winky's not a golf ball and Tito's not going to be teeing off on him."

"If it was about knockouts, they'd call it knockouts. This is called boxing." Shaw paused. He asked King why he wasn't heckling.

"I'm pouring gasoline on you right now, baby!" King beamed, waving his Puerto Rican flag.

Shaw reached into a paper bag in front of him, turning to Trinidad, "Tito, I want to present this to you to practice catching. " It was a catcher's mitt.

Tito accepted with a big grin, saying to Wright while they posed for pictures, "You're going to have to teach me how to catch punches."

Shaw concluded, "Don gets a lot of bad press. In all my years of dealing with him when I was COO at Main Events, Don has always kept his word with me&#8230;and he's my adversary. Thanks for the opportunity. We'll give you the opportunity back."

The difference between Shaw and King is light years. Shaw's solid and buttoned-up, a perfect style match-up with Wright. King's the scene-stealer. He wasn't a barker; he was P.T Barnum. He managed to trumpet the fight, fitting Cyrano de Bergerac, Judy Garland and General Santa Ana in the same sentence. He made hyperbole an art form. You couldn't make him up; no one would buy it.

Both of these fighters, with 94 bouts and 60 knockouts between them -- are to be applauded for taking on such a dangerous opponent. Trinidad can knock your brains out, and Wright can school you and make you look foolish.

Hopkins was able to nullify Trinidad's power; and brave as he was, Tito didn't adapt and was pounded down. Wright, though not as hard a hitter, is equally frustrating and an opportunist. One lapse and he rains punches. He's an offensive counter puncher, forcing errors with double and triple jabs. 
"Make'em fight; stay on their guard at all times. It's draining for'em," is how Wright puts it.

Wright's technically sound - old school -- as well, always keeps his hands high and tight, and blessed with a solid chin.

So, can Trinidad cut off and batter down the southpaw's defense, or can Wright outmaneuver and outland Tito?

"It's gonna be a chess game &#8230; a helluva fight, " Wright adds. If people think Tito's just gonna run in there and knock me out, they got another think coming."

Winky's Mr. Cellophane. Even when he's fighting and two stories high on the Jumbotron, nobody will know who's in there with Trinidad. He's fated to be a trivia question in 20 years, like President Polk or Jimmy McLarnin.

The only recognition he'll get is from the boxers and trainers who'll nudge each other, "Did you see that? He's a "fighter's fighter." Taking somebody out of his game doesn't make a highlight reel or earn clothing contracts; it wins fights.

If you like the Sweet Science, you'll get your money's worth on May 14. It may not be for a title, but this is championship boxing. Shaw is right: Wright is wrong for Tito. He wins a hotly contested unanimous decision.


----------



## Del Boy

Bit long for me to read at the moment john must get a around to it tonight when things slow down :good


----------



## doug.ie

whats the trivia question about mclarnin JG ??


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> whats the *trivia question about mclarnin* JG ??


Not sure what this refers to, doug


----------



## O59

This thread is absolutely golden. Some great tales being told by JG. Carry on!


----------



## Vic

orriray59 said:


> This thread is absolutely golden. Some great tales being told by JG. Carry on!


:yep:deal:


----------



## dftaylor

@john garfield - the Winky stuff is priceless. I feel like I was there! What did you think about the fight itself?


----------



## john garfield

dftaylor said:


> @john garfield - the Winky stuff is priceless. *I feel like I was there!* What did you think about the fight itself?


Putting you ringside's my number one priority, d. Will be posting my impressions of the fight shortly


----------



## GazOC

Great stuff. I wonder which poor souls had to work in "Ring 2"?

Cheers JG!


----------



## john garfield

GazOC said:


> Great stuff. *I wonder which poor souls had to work in "Ring 2"?*
> 
> Cheers JG!


You're writin' ta one of the poor souls, G


----------



## GazOC

john garfield said:


> You're writin' ta one of the poor souls, G


:lol::thumbsup


----------



## GazOC

Wright-Trinidad was one of those few occasions when I *KNEW*, and I mean *KNEW*, the bookies had got it completely wrong.


----------



## john garfield

*TRINIDAD-WRIGHT FIGHT*

Instead of the Puerto Rican National Anthem when Tito Trinidad fought Winky Wright at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, it would've been more appropriate to sing, "I can't get started with you."

The lyrics told the whole story for 12 frustrating - astonishing - rounds. One of the most feared punchers in decades wasn't beat up, he was beaten on -- neutralized -- relegated to a target.

It was the first 36-minute blizzard in Vegas history.

Around the sixth, the thought occurred, it must be an imposter. Hopkins embarrassed Tito&#8230;but this was a mismatch. To describe it as a rout would've implied a contest. Wright rat-tat-tatted Trinidad's head like a speed bag. His jab brought new meaning to the words "in your face."

Tito had to be kicking back in Cupey Alto; thankful it wasn't he who was being humiliated.

Trinidad, in growing desperation -- a glove always in his eyes -- searched frantically for a breach in the wall. (Not storming it; he couldn't get that close.) He was left, futilely, pounding at the gates - "Let me in!" He never found an answer - nor did Papa Trinidad&#8230;Winky had them all.

Wright's a pressure fighter who jackhammers accurately, leaving a man no comfort. He lays leather -- not brain numbing, but disheartening&#8230;until the lead is insurmountable. Sharing the ring with Wright is an education - a painful one.

"I ain't out here to show people if I can take a punch," he said to me on Media Day. "I'm gonna dip and dart. Believe me, when he miss, he gonna get a hard one back. "

Every round was a repeat of the other: Winky dissected Trinidad with all the flamboyance of a Swiss watch. Trinidad used the sponge defense, absorbing everything. Corazon wasn't his problem; his big guns were muzzled -- his fans never in the fight. It was Hopkins deja vu: blunted, and without a clue. 
All the Viagra in the world couldn't have restored Tito's potent offense; he was so dispirited. He's lucky he wasn't the first fighter KO'd by whiplash.

It's all the more impressive, considering how shockingly Tito'd dispatched so many other world-class fighters. It wasn't rust or staleness; he was spanked and blanked by a better fighter -- more technically sound -- superbly trained for 18 years by Dan Birmingham -- much the way "Nacho" Beristain forges his fighters -- hands high -- always within themselves.

It never makes them scintillating, only appreciated by peers. Yell "BOXING MATCH!" in a crowded arena and you wouldn't want to be responsible for the casualties in the stampede out. Boxing's a blood sport, and describing Winky as a Sweet Scientist doesn't fire the imagination of ticket buyers. Nobody lines up to see a singles hitter? 
As a follow-up to Corrales-Castillo, it was an anti-climax -- a primer on the Marquis of Queensbury -- Wright demonstrating every page, drawing special attention to the jab -- not the crucible that made legends the week before.

Wright's got Pay-Per-View skills, not charisma. He reduced a seven-time world champion to a catcher.

They must be better friends than anyone imagined. During the buildup for the fight, Gary Shaw, Wright's manager/promoter, gave Trinidad a baseball glove "to practice catching." Trinidad said he had "no experience"; Winky would "have to teach" him. Wright must have worked selflessly with Tito. From the opening bell, Tito had a Golden Glove; nothing got by him.

It wasn't worth $50 seeing Wright cuff a sparring partner. There was more chance of violence after the fight watching Don King share the ring with Larry Merchant.

Maybe&#8230;it was worth shelling out&#8230;Had I not seen it; I wouldn't have believed it. With two victories over Mosley -- and now this -- Winky's turned skeptics to believers. Back-in-the-day, he'd be called "a helluva fighter." Time will tell if he's a great one.


----------



## GazOC

Winky and Hops are/ were proper old school technicians. Trinidad was great to watch but he was never going to beat either of those 2 guys.


----------



## nahkis

Quality stuff, whole thread


----------



## john garfield

nahkis said:


> *Quality stuff, whole threa*d


great ta hear,n. Will keep tryin' ta putya ringside


----------



## Guest

Yeah, I remember watching this fight live on TV. I expected Trinidad to win... and couldn't believe how he was completely outboxed every minute of every round!


----------



## Teeto

john garfield said:


> *TRINIDAD-WRIGHT FIGHT*
> 
> Instead of the Puerto Rican National Anthem when Tito Trinidad fought Winky Wright at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, it would've been more appropriate to sing, "I can't get started with you."
> 
> The lyrics told the whole story for 12 frustrating - astonishing - rounds. One of the most feared punchers in decades wasn't beat up, he was beaten on -- neutralized -- relegated to a target.
> 
> It was the first 36-minute blizzard in Vegas history.
> 
> Around the sixth, the thought occurred, it must be an imposter. Hopkins embarrassed Tito&#8230;but this was a mismatch. To describe it as a rout would've implied a contest. Wright rat-tat-tatted Trinidad's head like a speed bag. His jab brought new meaning to the words "in your face."
> 
> Tito had to be kicking back in Cupey Alto; thankful it wasn't he who was being humiliated.
> 
> Trinidad, in growing desperation -- a glove always in his eyes -- searched frantically for a breach in the wall. (Not storming it; he couldn't get that close.) He was left, futilely, pounding at the gates - "Let me in!" He never found an answer - nor did Papa Trinidad&#8230;Winky had them all.
> 
> Wright's a pressure fighter who jackhammers accurately, leaving a man no comfort. He lays leather -- not brain numbing, but disheartening&#8230;until the lead is insurmountable. Sharing the ring with Wright is an education - a painful one.
> 
> "I ain't out here to show people if I can take a punch," he said to me on Media Day. "I'm gonna dip and dart. Believe me, when he miss, he gonna get a hard one back. "
> 
> Every round was a repeat of the other: Winky dissected Trinidad with all the flamboyance of a Swiss watch. Trinidad used the sponge defense, absorbing everything. Corazon wasn't his problem; his big guns were muzzled -- his fans never in the fight. It was Hopkins deja vu: blunted, and without a clue.
> All the Viagra in the world couldn't have restored Tito's potent offense; he was so dispirited. He's lucky he wasn't the first fighter KO'd by whiplash.
> 
> It's all the more impressive, considering how shockingly Tito'd dispatched so many other world-class fighters. It wasn't rust or staleness; he was spanked and blanked by a better fighter -- more technically sound -- superbly trained for 18 years by Dan Birmingham -- much the way "Nacho" Beristain forges his fighters -- hands high -- always within themselves.
> 
> It never makes them scintillating, only appreciated by peers. Yell "BOXING MATCH!" in a crowded arena and you wouldn't want to be responsible for the casualties in the stampede out. Boxing's a blood sport, and describing Winky as a Sweet Scientist doesn't fire the imagination of ticket buyers. Nobody lines up to see a singles hitter?
> As a follow-up to Corrales-Castillo, it was an anti-climax -- a primer on the Marquis of Queensbury -- Wright demonstrating every page, drawing special attention to the jab -- not the crucible that made legends the week before.
> 
> Wright's got Pay-Per-View skills, not charisma. He reduced a seven-time world champion to a catcher.
> 
> They must be better friends than anyone imagined. During the buildup for the fight, Gary Shaw, Wright's manager/promoter, gave Trinidad a baseball glove "to practice catching." Trinidad said he had "no experience"; Winky would "have to teach" him. Wright must have worked selflessly with Tito. From the opening bell, Tito had a Golden Glove; nothing got by him.
> 
> It wasn't worth $50 seeing Wright cuff a sparring partner. There was more chance of violence after the fight watching Don King share the ring with Larry Merchant.
> 
> Maybe&#8230;it was worth shelling out&#8230;Had I not seen it; I wouldn't have believed it. With two victories over Mosley -- and now this -- Winky's turned skeptics to believers. Back-in-the-day, he'd be called "a helluva fighter." Time will tell if he's a great one.


nice JG, Winky was a great fighter


----------



## GazOC

Jules said:


> Brilliant. These should be published in a book of short boxing story's.


Good call!


----------



## john garfield

GazOC said:


> Good call!


Been considering it for a long time, G. Any suggestions for a title?


----------



## GazOC

Now you're asking John, tough question!!

Its 1 in the morning over here, I'll have to get back to you.


----------



## john garfield

Jules said:


> Brilliant. These should be published in a book of short boxing story's.


Any suggestion for a title, Jules?


----------



## Vic

I remember this fight pretty well......I was a bit surprised, not because of the result, but to see how great Winky´s performance was.....


----------



## john garfield

*PACQUIAO COUNTS DOWN TO MORALES; ROACH Q&A*

Seeing Manny Pacquiao in the last few days of training at the Wild Card Gym for his Pay-Per-View junior lightweight match-up with Eric Morales on March 19 at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, it was as if royalty was in attendance. The modest space throbbed with what looked like the better part of Manila, and every other fighter and trainer sought a breathe of air, like commuters on a rush-hour train.

In the swirl of activity, Murad Muhammad, Pacquiao's promoter, sat silent against the side wall watching Manny spar, no more than 15 feet from Pac's trainer, Freddie Roach, at the front desk. It might just as well have been 15 miles. The enmity between the two was so thick; you could cut it with a knife.

On Pac's final day of sparring with Raymondo Beltran and Jose Santa Cruz, he fine-tuned his tools at half speed; letting his hands go, gauging accuracy and timing. It was all working, like calibrating a fine timepiece.

Just as modifications were made in Team Pacquiao since the Marquez fight, Roach worked tirelessly with Pacquiao to sharpen the moves he'd need to overcome Morales' style.

No video shooting of his sparring was allowed. Trainers scanned the room like Secret Service, fixing anyone suspicious with a glare: "Put it away, now!" It was so congested, anyone seeking a better vantage point looked like Salmon swimming up stream.

Pacquiao's only 27, but he defines grace under pressure. This is the biggest fight of his life, and he has to stay focused. But, even while sparring, hitting bags and doing floor work, it's not hard to see why he's the soul of the Philippines. He acknowledged the waves and shouts of his countrymen with a welcoming grin.

After dressing in sweats, Pacquiao held court the way Ray Robinson did -- the center of a sea of reporters and adoring fans -- endlessly signing autographs, and taking pictures, with good humor. When he moved, they moved -- like planets around the sun.

If Pacquiao's learned as much in this training camp as he has outside, Morales may be in for an even bigger headache than he imagined. Only months ago, Pacquiao could barely utter an English word. But he stood confident in the Wild Card doorway, announcing to all, like Gen. Macarthur at Corregidor, in affect, "I will be back&#8230;with a victory!" in flawless English.

If Pac beats Morales, with his smile, electrifying style, and growing comfort with English, the money he's imagined might be a fraction of what he'll see as a crossover attraction, like Oscar De La Hoya.

When Manny's team and supporters funneled out, I spoke to Roach.

Q: As Manny's training comes to a close in Los Angeles, what are your thoughts, Freddie?

FR: Good camp - longest we've ever had - nine weeks total by fight time. We had a little extra time to work on his right hand, to make him a two-fisted fighter. He has a lot of confidence in his left hand. He has a lot of power in his right hand; he just doesn't have the confidence. We worked on it over time, and I expect it to be very affective in this fight.

Q: Morales has a big overhand right. In sparring, I see Manny sliding off to the right more than I ever have. Is that part of your strategy?

FR: Yeah, definitely. It's a very simple move, just to move away from this guy's power. He doesn't throw a real good left hook. He's got a good left uppercut to the body. To nullify that, it takes Manny one step to get away from it and walk him into Manny's power. We watched a lot of tape on this guy. We think from that side, he can be hit. With the Marquez fight, Manny stood right in from of him too much. He just wanted to trade with him. In this fight, we're gonna use a lot more movement, side to side. Morales is one of those guys, if you stand in front of him, he _will_ hit you.

Q: When Manny was training here a week before the Marquez fight, I saw his foot slip doing stair stepping and he winced with pain and favored it for the balance of the workout. It got little notice at the time. Was it a factor in the fight?

FR: It was bothering him a little bit - nothing broken, or anything, just stretched some muscles. No excuses. The blisters on his feet were the worst thing. People say a fighter shouldn't get blisters on his feet; he moves all the time&#8230;but he bought a cheap pair of socks. The blisters were terrible. He couldn't move. It was so bad; he got a sock deal with a company in the Philippines&#8230;a good pair of socks, actually. It was a factor in the fight, and he had a slight fracture in his left hand. I feel if he didn't have that, he would have knocked that guy out. It's water under the bridge. He's on to bigger and better things right now.

Q: Did your team make mistakes in the Marquez fight?

FR: Yeah, there were little things we just overlooked. We try not to overlook anything now - to make sure the equipment is right. A problem that shouldn't have happened did. Those things happen. You learn from your mistakes. We're gonna make sure he wears the right shoes and the right socks. I wish Murad Muhammad wouldn't have picked Winning Gloves. This is a non-title fight. It's supposed to be either a coin toss, or wear whatever you want, as long as the Nevada Commission agrees. But, it's in the contract: We have to wear the gloves that Morales picks. I don't think Murad's looking out for his fighter, without even considering asking a simple question like that. We've always fought in Reyes gloves&#8230;And, everyone knows, Reyes gloves are punchers' gloves. The Winning Gloves are a little bit more padded&#8230;I'm not happy about it, but it's not gonna make a difference in the fight. We'll get to this guy, either way.

Q: What's your answer to those that say Pac's a one-dimensional fighter?

FR: In his last fight, he fought that fight. He fought a very poor fight. In the Barrera fight, he was a complete fighter. You're only as good as your last fight. They can say that right now, but after the Morales fight; they'll have a new view.

Q: Do all the tensions behind the scenes affect Manny?

FR: It's been a pretty smooth transition, cause Manny's happy about things, because now he knows, he's the boss. It used to be that Murad Muhammad and Nazario used to write the checks. Manny's in charge of his own life now. He knows where every penny's goin'. There's full disclosure. It's like it should be, which he's never had before. But those guys are still trying to tell Manny that Shelly Finkel and the lawyers are bad for him. They've been trying to get to him to re-sign a different contract. When he signed the last contract with Murad, he told me, 'I was under duress. They told me if I didn't sign that contract, I would never fight on HBO again.' And, that's a lie! He wasn't forced&#8230; but he was pressured into it. He's a real nice kid. He wants to make everyone happy. I think he's grown up a little bit, and he's starting to look out for himself.

I think the new team, with lawyers and Shelly Finkel, they're gonna get the right fights for Manny, for the most money he can make. That's the bottom line, what you want to do in this sport.

Q: Shelly's a manager. After this fight, will Shelly look for a promoter?

FR: Manny's big enough where he doesn't really need a promoter right now. Shelly will do what he does with Mike Tyson: pay somebody a flat fee to put the fight on. You put Manny and Barrera together in the re-match; that sells itself.

Q: So, you get somebody who understands the nuts and bolts, but Shelly's really putting it together?

FR: Yes, of course. When Tyson fights, Shelly hires somebody to put the show on and he pays them $300,000 - nothing outrageous, but fair. Everyone's happy. The fighter gets the bigger end of the money. That's the way it should be. That's who the people are coming to see.

Q: Why'd you initiate this?

FR: I just do my job. I train Manny. Manny asked me for help, so I gave him help. He wanted me to put a team together, so I did that. Him and Shelly Finkel spoke. They liked each other, and they did a deal. Manny's very happy with the new team&#8230;He's got the lawyers looking out for him. I concentrate on my job; I know everything else is covered right now.

Q: "Right now," meaning what?

FR: Murad Muhammad is the promoter right now&#8230;but what does he really do? This is a Bob Arum promotion; Bob Arum's the lead promoter in this fight. All Murad's doing is bringing Manny Pacquiao to the table, because he has him under contract. We'll see after the fight what happens&#8230;if that contract is still valid.

Q: Why do you feel so strongly?

FR: I hate when anybody steals money off fighters; I was a fighter myself one time.

Q: Give us an example?

FR: Before Manny signed his last contract with Murad, Bob Arum called me up and he negotiated this deal with me: It's the exact same pay day we're making now: a guarantee, plus 40% of the upside (after the break-even of the PPV money). The upside was going 100% to Manny. But now the upside is going to Murad Muhammad. If the upside is $5, I want Manny to get the $5. He's the one putting his life on the line.

Q: By making this deal with Finkel, do you profit?

FR: My deal with Manny is the same as it's always been. It's never been changed, ever since I took him on for the Ladwaba fight. He's always been very fair with me. I don't need to make any extra money off these guys. I told Shelly, I just want you to be honest with him and give him what he's supposed to get.

Q: What kind of money are we talking about?

FR: The upside could be up to $3 million, if it does as well as Barrera-Morales did, and I think it will do better than that. In my opinion, that's not the promoter's money; that's Manny's money. People are paying to see him. The promoter, obviously, deserves to get something, but not more than the fighter.

Q: How do you and Murad exist together?

FR: Murad Muhammad comes to my gym. He'll say 'Hi' to me and I'll say 'Hi" to him - that's all there is to it. I don't think there's any love lost between us. 
He knows I don't like him, and I know he doesn't like me. He told me he's coming after me, and stuff like that. Well, come on, if you're coming - cause I'm right here! I have no problem with that. He wants to come after me; what's that mean? Does he want to physically come after me? Any way!

Q: If you can think about just the fight now, how's it going to play out?

FR: Macka Foley's betting Pacquiao will knock him out in the first round&#8230;It could happen, Manny's so explosive. More realistically, I think we're going to take this guy's body away - like we did with Barrera. I think we'll stop this guy some where's along the line, cause we're going to make Morales fight every minute of every round. I don't think he can keep the pace up with Manny Pacquiao. He's the most exciting fighter in the world today.


----------



## Jim Bowen

john garfield said:


> Any suggestion for a title, Jules?


A Life Spent Ringside.

or simply as you say "Puttin' Ya Ringside".


----------



## john garfield

Jim Bowen said:


> A Life Spent Ringside.
> 
> or simply as you say *"Puttin' Ya Ringside"*.


PERFECT! JB. Hits all the right notes.

If you do that well at 1 A.M., ya must be a dynamo on all cylinders


----------



## NoMas

Just check in, thanks again JG! Brilliant stuff


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> Just check in, thanks again JG! Brilliant stuff


bring your mates from Sussex, NM


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> *THE SMOKER KEEPS THE FLAME ALIVE*
> 
> If the looks on the faces of the families that showed up for an old-fashioned smoker at Freddie Roach's Wild Card Gym in Los Angeles is any indication, boxing's very much alive.
> 
> In this tiny spot in the heart of Hollywood above a Chinese laundry, it was the 1940s again in every settlement house and church in Brooklyn and the Bronx -- including fighters with names like "The Asian Tiger," "Repo Man," and "Bugsy."
> 
> There were 13 bouts scheduled -- three two-minute rounds, with 12-ounce gloves and headgears. Since they were unsanctioned by the AAU, every great fighter from the '20s through the '70s served his apprenticeship in smokers without risking his amateur record. Many of boxing's hardcore fans got their addiction by lacing'em-up as kids in smokers.
> 
> Downstairs in the parking lot, with cars being jockeyed like a Rubik's Cube, a trainer cooked-up franks.
> 
> The gym very quickly looked like it was going to collapse into the laundry under the weight of all the bodies pushing to get a better view of the ring. Some stood on tables and chairs. Some stood above the others without any visible means of support. The mood was like Mariachi music.
> 
> Though it was a bracing fall evening outside, it was quickly a sauna in the gym, without a centimeter to breathe -- people peeling down to T-shirts.
> 
> Brian Viloria and Manny Pacquiao, laughing and signing autographs, were acting as judges.
> 
> Roach was the referee; his brother, Pep, was a second and his mother was one of the other judges. Hollywood celebs lined ringside, and local fighters and trainers sprinkled the crowd -- that looked like ten pounds in a five-pound bag.
> 
> It was an adrenaline rush for three hours - raucous, profane&#8230;old friends and opponents ragging each other - eyes lit up, rolling back the years.
> 
> 93-year-old trainer Eddie Cousins hadn't slowed a bit climbing into the ring, furiously demonstrating what his charges needed to do.
> 
> There was one moment when the crowd booed a decision for a fighter that Pep was handling. He gave them the finger. They booed even louder. Pep stood on the ring apron, dropped his pants and mooned them roundly.
> 
> Laughter shook the building. People rocked in their seats, stamping their feet. The pure joy was like a sports bar when the home team wins the World Series. That alone was worth the $5. It was the fix that satisfied the Jones of every old-school boxing junkie.
> 
> Mario Lopez, the actor and TV personality, sporting the handle "Bazooka," was a big surprise to those who didn't know how seriously he took boxing. With his black headgear with the bar across the front and his powerful build, he looked like Spartacus.
> 
> "The Jersey Kid," his opponent, must have felt he'd been ganged up on by what seemed the entire Lopez family -- all with one face -- who jumped up and down at ringside, taking pictures, shouting encouragement and swinging along with every punch Mario threw.
> 
> Lopez wasn't just a fired-up swinger: He showed what he'd learned in the many rounds with James Toney and Shane Mosley, pivoting left and right inside for the best angles and leverage. He was patient, didn't lunge, and threw multiple left hooks and accurate, short lead rights.
> 
> Lopez not only landed with the kind of punches that made the crowd go "OOH!" he showed enough meanness that he had to be warned several times by Roach for unnecessary roughness.
> 
> "The Jersey Kid" hung in there tough but he was outgunned and overpowered.
> 
> When Lopez was announced the winner, and the little bronze medal on the red and white ribbon was placed 'round his neck, he flashed a mega-watt smile that couldn't have been broader if he'd won the Academy Award.
> 
> There must have been a sudden exodus from Dublin, when "Irish Man" battled "The Russian Sleeping Pill." Rows of lads who'd had more than a few to drink -- wrapped in the Irish flag -- chanted, "Irish!" "Irish!" Some scruffy leprechauns feeling no pain smushed their faces against the gym's second-story window screens -- all but inaccessible from the ground -- yelling "Irish Man! Irish Man!" at a level that would normally summon the police to a domestic disturbance.
> 
> The crowd warmed to anybody that showed heart, and were no less appreciative of the female bout. "The Moroccan Princess" and "Killer" staged their own version of Gatti-Ward 1
> 
> When "The Bruiser" was in a grueling struggle with Danny "The Man," "The Bruiser's" mother stood near me wringing a handkerchief and tensing with his every effort. "Yes, my son!" she repeated, tears welling in her eyes when he was given a majority decision.
> 
> After conferring with Freddie Roach, the ring announcer said: because his opponent didn't show up, seven-year-old Steven Ayala was declared the winner in his 57-pound match.
> 
> With the medal around his neck, Steven was encouraged by Roach to shadowbox for the crowd. He looked like a scale-model Ricardo Lopez, throwing perfectly executed, blurring combinations. The cheers grew as the crowd took him to their heart.
> 
> After the naming of the Best Boxer of The Night, and the Most Courageous, the crowd filed out, still buzzing with the evening's excitement. Mario Lopez -- medal still around his neck - posed for snapshots with his arm around a beaming fan.
> 
> Trainer Eric Brown turned to me: "We should do it in the parking lot next time. We could fill it." There was no question in my mind.
> 
> The demise of boxing seems much less likely after seeing the growing dream in the eyes of young Steven Ayala as he left the ring holding his medal up for his dad to see.


supurb :clap:, i actually felt like i was there, pictured one of my ex gyms saturday morning gym shows... you have great way with words jg


----------



## NoMas

major respect for ac slater i mean mario lopez haha


----------



## john garfield

Jules said:


> Yes, Boxing Short's!


Great title, J, but I don't wanna limit it just to boxing


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> major respect for ac slater i mean mario lopez haha


Have more Mario stories I'll be putting up, NM


----------



## NoMas

cant wait brother! and your book if ever you should publish it, has gotta be called 'puttin ya ringside' :good


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> cant wait brother! and your book if ever you should publish it, has gotta be called *'puttin ya ringside' *:good


definitely gonna use that title as a wrap-around for my stories, N.M


----------



## doug.ie

this has been one of, if not THE, most enjoyable thread i ever read JG


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> *this has been one of, if not THE, most enjoyable thread i ever read* JG


OK, doug, will payya the money I owe


----------



## john garfield

*"We Had GOLD!" *

A Pleistocene Age ago, the face of boxing was totally different: Love him or hate him, Roy Jones, Jr. was a demi God threatening to topple Sugar Ray Robinson as the pound-for-pound best, and John Ruiz was a lumbering 235-pounder with a shred of the title and the easiest pickin's for Jones to be the first middleweight in a 100 years to become the heavyweight titlist.

But Ruiz was still a HEAVYWWEIGHT CHAMPION -- fringe or not - a monstrous size mismatch. Jones was not a big-boned light heavy. His assault on the crown was unthinkable, even against a plodder like Ruiz.

Jones' audacity was applauded by his loyalists; and those that loathed him -- and they were legion -- couldn't wait for Goliath to smite and stomp him into the canvas - expose him as a sham. Allow the Earth to rotate back on its axis.

A life-long fan, I wouldn't have missed being ringside for the world.

Jim Edwards, a buddy and equally rabid fan and award-winning director/cameraman and myself decided to start our own boxing site, with videos far different -- more gritty and professional than anybody else, with writing to match.

We were sure we could make a commercial success of it with our small crew, run-&-gun style&#8230;Did some spec videos, had a revenue plan, and lots of industry insiders gave us advice, equipment and pumped us up with promises of advertising and financing.

So we did some last-minute early-morning interviews at L.A gyms; threw our gear into Jim's '69 red Mustang convertible without a top, windshield wipers and air conditioning, and hauled ass for Vegas.

It was _euphoric_ -- a 24-hour-a-day adrenaline rush. We hit the ground running at the Strip: Got fight opines from people on the street, in hotels, beneath Jones and Ruiz glowering from the plasma screen in front of Caesar's, in casinos; crisscrossed town and queried broadcasters, ticket buyers, world champs, legends, trainers, gym rats and promoters; covered every pre-fight event and Don King absurdity (shot from angles only a monkey could climb) and the big fight itself.

We had GOLD! And raced back to L.A. We hadn't slept; only nibbled press-conference nuts and chips, but we were as high as if we'd hit LOTTO -- couldn't wait to tear into the material.

We edited 'round-the-clock for weeks. A composer did an original score and mixed the sound.

We all waited expectantly for the flood of sponsors.

I'd hate to have held my breath; it never happened, (Welcome to Hollywood) and Jim and I had to dust ourselves off and get on with life.
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

_This is the intro vid we never had a chance to title_:


----------



## Robney

john garfield said:


> We had GOLD! And raced back to L.A. We hadn't slept; only nibbled press-conference nuts and chips, but we were as high as if we'd hit LOTTO -- couldn't wait to tear into the material.
> 
> We edited 'round-the-clock for weeks. A composer did an original score and mixed the sound.
> 
> We all waited expectantly for the flood of sponsors.
> 
> I'd hate to have held my breath; it never happened, (Welcome to Hollywood) and Jim and I had to dust ourselves off and get on with life.


This is how most of these stories end JG :yep


----------



## doug.ie

great seeing and hearing you there JG.

tell me...what did you make of that last jones jr fight out in poland ?


----------



## doug.ie

actually, let me embed that video so people dont skim over the post and miss it...


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## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> actually, let me embed that video so people dont skim over the post and miss it...


Terrific, Doug.

Think I'm gonna get home addresses of everyone on this site; bang on their doors and say, "I ain't budgin' tillya come ta this sticky!"


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## doug.ie

seriously...that was a great video JG


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## NoMas

wicked vid jg... was that you in the video? the video kinda reminded me off the 90s nike spike lee commercials the way it was filmed haha good stuff


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## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> great seeing and hearing you there JG.
> 
> tell me...what did you make of that last jones jr fight out in poland ?


Not privvy to RJ or B-Hops' finances, doug, but for sure they're no longer elites, 'n at risk to their health, their squeezing every last nickel outta the game; just as a damaged and broke Sugar Ray Robinson came to scratch years after he should've been out to pasture.

So, I don't follow Roy's recent bouts, just shake my head that he's doing it, wishing boxing analysis is the closest he gets to the ring.


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> wicked vid jg... was that you in the video? the video kinda reminded me off the 90s nike spike lee commercials the way it was filmed haha good stuff


Yup, that threat to Brad Pitt is me, NM


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> Yup, that threat to Brad Pitt is me, NM


haha good stuff brother... i heard roy actually has form of brain damage, i dont think hes licensed in america these days, very sad, he just needs to give it up


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## john garfield

If anyone wantsta post a positive comment under the youtube, I won't restrain you. It might out-weigh the tepid ones; 'n like Margarito, I'm not adverse ta loaded gloves.


----------



## doug.ie

if i could pick out one line from all these pages it would be this one...

"Sandy Saddler and Paddy DeMarco play-fought with me. Bob Montgomery let me unlace his gloves; Beau Jack feinted punches at me"

just epic.


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> if i could pick out one line from all these pages it would be this one...
> 
> *"Sandy Saddler and Paddy DeMarco play-fought with me. Bob Montgomery let me unlace his gloves; Beau Jack feinted punches at me"*
> 
> just epic.


Think of it as Cirque du Soleil through a 10-year-old's eyes, doug


----------



## john garfield

where's all the boxing fans that wanna be ringside?


----------



## Michael

Just had a read over the stories I missed, unlucky on the site you tried to build John, would have been a goodun I reckon :good


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## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Just had a read over the stories I missed, *unlucky on the site you tried to build John*, would have been a goodun I reckon :good


Still got the fire, though, Sok


----------



## john garfield

*WAYNE McCULLOUGH UP-CLOSE*
Impressions before the Oscar Larios fight

It's a contradiction: Wayne McCullough and veteran in the same sentence.

This is a small boy who's run off to the circus, having the time of his life.

It may say 34 on his birth certificate but a 10-year-old would be hard-pressed to keep up with him.

12 years of punching people professionally, and being punched back, McCullough still approaches the task with all the enthusiasm of being first at a U2 concert.

Freddie Roach doesn't train him; he winds him up.

My dad used to say, "You want something done, give it to a busy man." McCullough's like the street performer blurring to keep all the plates spinning in the air.

Golf is his favorite pastime -- hard to imagine him waiting to putt. He fights, he writes, he commentates, he lives the Satchel Paige credo: "Never slow down somethin' may be gainin' on ya." And he does it with the pulse-rate of a world-class marathoner.

So on Thursday, February 10, in a tented ring adjacent to The Palace Indian Gaming Center plunked down on a corn field in Lemoore, California, he'll bound into a ring through smoke and fireworks for the 348th time -- amateur and pro - rockin' to U2 and the cheers of clan-McCullough -- raucous enough to be heard back in Belfast, while FOX's Best Damn Sports Show Period, on a raised stage, amps up the crowd of 1500.

It ain't old school&#8230;but it's a helluva show.

McCullough will be there for probably his third and last try at a world title -- to wrest the WBC Super Bantamweight crown from Oscar "Chololo" Larios (54-3-1), with the same craving a chocoholic has for layer cake.

When you've sampled Prince Hamed's best -- and didn't crumble; Erik Morales at the top of his game -- twice; fought and licked most everybody in their own backyard, Larios, with his string of 15-straight wins, nine title defenses, and 35 KO's, doesn't send tremors though him. He's a ticket back to the top.

McCullough personifies the "happy warrior," with the accent on warrior. He brings it, with Compu-Box numbers that burnout circuits. Think Kassim Ouma.

Usually a rat-tat-tat style doesn't go hand-and-glove with a solid constitution. It means: Avoid in-coming at all cost! Not with McCullough. He shakes off anvils like so many gnats. Fight him and you better pack your lunch. If you're not in shape, he'll run you over and leave tire tracks.

His strategy isn't to break an opponent's hands on his head. When bombs do get through his cross-guard bob-and-weave -- and the smoke clears -- he's still in front of his man, grinning, "That the best you got?"

Even though "Pocket Rocket" is now part of his legal name, "Wayne the Wolverine" might be more appropriate. Once he gets his teeth in, he doesn't let go. He keeps putting leather wherever there's skin. You don't have to knock down a building with a wrecking ball; a machine gun does plenty of damage.

Larios also likes to mix it up - is a free-swinger, but his punch-stats, though busy, aren't McCullough triple digits, and he jockey's more to counter. He should have ample opportunity over 12 rounds with McCullough on his chest, in what figures to be a fan treat and worth driving the 200 miles from L.A.

On paper it looks like a sure W for Larios: he's six years younger, McCullough's been inactive, comes off injuries, his best days are behind him&#8230;and his name will look good on his record.

But like Max Schmeling said before the first Joe Louis fight, "I see something&#8230;" and it may be Larios' Achilles Heel.

In Larios' successful defense against Australian Nadel Hussein, he was dinged repeatedly by single power shots, but Hussein hung back, didn't press his advantage or let his hands go. Whenever the ref broke them, Hussein danced back a few steps -- almost clear across the ring before starting in again. Larios took the play away and earned the nod. But he revealed a ***** in his armor -- especially against a fighter like McCullough.

He's a different breed of cat.

He's barely restrained by a ref coming out of a clinch; he takes only ONE step back or to the side and charges in.

McCullough doesn't have one-punch power but water can wear down a stone - plus, there's the intangible: all that in-your-face pressure drains a man's will. Like Harry Truman said, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

As McCullough puts it, "I may take a couple shots but I'm gonna hit you more than you hit me!"

His MO has always been to put the pedal to the metal and floor it. He has no plan B. So, it may come down to who blinks first.


----------



## Casual Benson's Unknown

Haven't been in here in a while, going to try and work my way through from where I last read, having skimmed briefly though the video on the last page was fantastic and I enjoyed the Wayne McCullough story.

Keep it up JG.


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## Del Boy

Glad you decided to do wayne @john garfield hes always been a favourite in my families household. I always felt hisachievement in the olimpics was forgotten about because of Carruth but he really showed his class in the pros, to go over to Japan in 95 and get the descision really was something special


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> Glad you decided to do wayne @john garfield hes always been a favourite in my families household. I always felt hisachievement in the olimpics was forgotten about because of Carruth but he really showed his class in the pros, to go over to Japan in 95 and get the descision really was something special


Gotta tellya, DB, in-person, Wayne made Johnny Tapia seem layed-back


----------



## Del Boy

Haha for real? That would be a real achievement. But then again hed have to be a bit of a nutter to do this ....


----------



## Michael

Good see to see a story on McCullough. Quality fighter, both in the pros and the amateurs, and one who wasnt afraid to fight the very best around. He was as hard as nails and busy as a bee in the ring. The only thing his style lacked was a knockout punch. Pity how his career ended though, he was another fighter who stayed on far too long. Only a few years ago he was constantly calling out Bernard Dunne to fight him.

Btw, his title winning performance in Japan was recently uploaded to youtube. I had wanted to see the full fight for years but couldn't find a copy. It makes for a good watch:


----------



## Del Boy

Thanks brother, was thinking about looking this fight up after reading @john garfields post about wayne


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## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Good see to see a story on McCullough. Quality fighter, both in the pros and the amateurs, and one who wasnt afraid to fight the very best around. He was as hard as nails and busy as a bee in the ring. The only thing his style lacked was a knockout punch. Pity how his career ended though, he was another fighter who stayed on far too long.Only a few years ago he was constantly calling out Bernard Dunne to fight him.
> 
> Btw, his title winning performance in Japan was recently uploaded to youtube. I had wanted to see the full fight for years but couldn't find a full copy. It makes for a good watch:


Thanks, S. Gonna click on it now


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## doug.ie

myself and my missus treated ourselves to ringside tickets when naseem hamed fought in dublin in 96 (?)....we were sitting directly behind wayne and his family (dad and brother) and we got chatting a lot to him, very friendly lad......anyway, naseem comes in starts his fight (tough fight for him i remember...manual medina), one round over and a packet of the crowd from one of the balconys start pointing towards wayne and shouting "mccullough...mccullough.." and wayne gets up..waves...and does a run around the ring as the whole crowd in the place joins in "mc-cullough!!...mc cullough!!"...it was great to see.

wayne and yours truly a couple of months back...


----------



## john garfield

*CORRIE SANDERS-VITALI KLITSCHKO PRESS CONFERENCE*

You could've phoned-in the Klitschko-Sanders press conference.

It went on time, on schedule, and the closest to volatility was when a reporter - a few seats from Wladimir -- asked Vitali, in affect, "You have a strong chin. Why doesn't your brother? He has the same genes."

Vitali would have taken less money in that instant to face his questioner on Saturday night at the Staples Center. "No comment" was all he uttered through his teeth, but the look on his face was the only evidence all afternoon that he was capable of violence.

I hope the fight has more excitement than the press conference -- There was no tug-of-war prying bodies apart. First-time promoter, Tom Loeffler, Managing Director of K2 Promotions, refreshingly self effacing -- looking more marathon runner than an impresario -- presided over this model of decorum. Fighters were called "Mr. this and Mr. that." It was more Robert's Rules of Order than riotous. It hardly seemed possible that in just a few days, they'd try to pound each other senseless.

While they made last-minute arrangements to start the presser, Vitali, at the head of a phalanx, strode toward the podium set up where the L.A. King's goalie usually stands. Klitschko looked like a rugged male model, at twice the size, dressed in casual elegance -- taut in a black T-shirt under a conservatively cut jacket that screamed understatement. His aura was dignity, not menace - a captain of industry, a chess-master with military bearing. In the gym, he doesn't look well built; he looks welded.

Here his words were impeccable as his threads. Any animus was in the measure of his speech. He doesn't vent; he simmers.

Corrie Sanders, with an easier smile and manner, made it clear, he was just happy to be here and anxious to end the fight quickly and go home. He had a contingent of what looked like former Rugby players dressed in matching green T-shirts spurring him on. They were golf-equipment sponsors from South Africa - one of them, Ernie Ells' brother. When asked the kind of welcome Corrie could expect if he brought home the WBC title to South Africa, their eyes widened like the World Cup was in sight.

When it was thrown open to the press for questions, there was silence, fidgeting for what seemed an eternity while the reporters looked at each other: "Who me?" and scrambled to think of something. It looked like an oil painting: the fighter's waiting expectantly and the press staring back. Finally, one woman fired this hardball at Sanders: "Which do you enjoy more, golf or boxing?

Only James Toney - the walking sound bite - threatened to bring the affair to life, and at a far lower volume and more decorous than Toney can usually be depended on. Sitting in the mezzanine with family and friends, he shouted down, challenging both Klitschko and Sanders, while Loeffler tried to continue, smiling as if Toney - his former client -- was an unruly child in church.

Photographers, smelling a story, descended on Toney like paparazzi as he stared balefully at the proceedings -- _the elephant in the room that wouldn't be ignored_.

Klitschko lifted just his eyes in Toney's direction. It seemed two things had the same affect on Vitali: when Sanders had patted him on the cheek when he came in the ring after Sanders had stopped his brother, and these outbursts by Toney. They were both an affront&#8230;and he only has so much benevolence as a despot. He doesn't suffer fools easily or publicly.

Up close - one on one - Klitschko can be very gracious and far less imposing than his size, but in a flash, he can turn to stone, as in the case of the reporter who hit a nerve asking about the fragility of his brother's chin. Vitali's features stiffened again when he was asked if Emanuel Stewart's absence in his corner was because of Wladimir's performance against Brewster. He was only hired as an "advisor," he said. Fritz Sdunek was his trainer, he continued, with an emphasis meant to close discussion.

All the while, a single heckler's voice from the mezzanine - like salt in a wound - competed: "What about James Toney?" the camp follower kept shouting, intent on disrupting. Toney sat Buddha-like with arms folded, daring anyone to pick up the gauntlet.

There's something about hearing from the Sanders camp that this will be his last bout if he doesn't win that sounds like they're preparing to console him, not congratulate him.

Sanders has the kind of lightening to duplicate what he did to Wladimir if he can surprise Vitali early, but time is not his ally, if you're a one-trick pony. The longer it goes, Vitali's mastery of tactics and work ethic - not to mention the anvils he swings -- should wear Sanders down and put him back on the golf course with a purse amount more closely guarded than the Manhattan Project.

If Klitschko wins, there's the sense that the championship will be in the hands of a corporation&#8230;run efficiently and profitably, with all the strategic acumen of a grand chess master. But, with Howard Cosell's, "DOWN GOES FRAZIER! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!" still ringing my ears, it'll be hard to work up enthusiasm if Jim Lampley caps the evening with "Checkmate!"


----------



## Boogle McDougal

You seem less enthused with Vitali in this article than any other piece you've written about him, JG. 

Would you say that you held him in higher esteem after the fight?


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> You seem less enthused with Vitali in this article than any other piece you've written about him, JG.
> 
> Would you say that you held him in higher esteem after the fight?


Wasn't trying ta give that impression of Vitali, B. (maybe I haven't come to terms with my own agenda) Just my observations of him at the presser.


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## Meast

Good posting JG, I'll catch up with the rest at the weekend


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## john garfield

* VITALI KLITSCHKO CHAMPION BIZ WHIZ *
*Media day for Danny Williams fight*

WBC Heavyweight Champ, Vitali Klitschko, brought multi-tasking to a new level.

He did four things at once - with aplomb - at the La Brea Boxing Gym on Media Day for his first title defense against Britain's Danny Williams on Saturday, Dec. 11 at the Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino in Las Vegas on HBO Pay-Per-View.

In under two hours, Klitschko was the master of ceremonies, a walking, punching, skipping billboard for Hugo Boss Sportswear, the Heavyweight Champion of the World going through his paces with trainer Fritz Sdunek and an impassioned advocate for democracy in Ukraine.

For somebody that's supposed to be distracted by the problems in his homeland, Klitschko was smiling - wearing egg-shell colored sweats -- towering over his entourage - when he bounced down the steps into the spacious La Brea Gym a little after 12:30 P.M., nodding amiably to familiar faces in the media grazing on the buffet.

The cavernous space looked more like a movie set rather than a gym - with eye-candy color from South American flags art-directed from rafters.

Amilcar Brusa, Carlos Monzon's trainer, wound-down a sparring session between two heavyweights. Earnest Latino hopefuls dressed like a grunge band focused on pounding heavy bags.

Klitschko sat on the ring steps with Personal Manager Bernd Boente. The press swarmed Klitschko, like bees to honey. Boente was the gatekeeper. Klitschko told the assemblage there would be a brief workout: a mitt drill, rope skipping, and heavy and speed-bag photo ops, followed by a Q&A at ringside.

After he laid out the guidelines, Sdundek spit on the back of Klitschko's hand and wrapped his knuckles all the way to the wrist, while Klitschko traded good-natured banter with reporters and photographers from all over the world.

"Sdundek is the best trainer." Klitschko quipped, "The next fight will decide if he is the best." The crowd paused and laughed&#8230;while it sunk in. 
With shutters clicking and cameras rolling, somebody must have gotten a priceless shot. Just before Klitschko went into the ring to work the mitts with Sdunek, he kissed him on top of the head, as if to say, "You're my man."

Klitschko than did his photo ops: working pads with Sdundek, (dipping on both sides of a jab and avoiding a left hook), doing Marine push-ups on his knuckles, skipping rope in the ring (Sugar Ray Robinson's rep with a skip-rope was never in peril. There was too much give in the canvas, and Klitschko had to keep re-starting.), hitting the heavy bag with sparring gloves, and finished with a quick flurry on the peanut bag. (Which, cleverly, was held down by an inflated tire) None of which caused him to break a sweat.

Then he came back to the ring apron to take questions, lit up by flashes on all sides and bombarded by questions.

Each trying to out-shout the other -- the Tower of Babble. Klitschko was in the eye of the hurricane - unperturbed. The reporters he pointed to were more interested in his views about the Ukrainian political crisis than Danny Williams.

Vitali leaned forward and, effortlessly shifting from one language to another, emphatically encouraged the pro-Western, orange-draped masses in Kiev, fearing a return to the repressive Communist regime. In a show of solidarity, members of Team-Klitschko wore orange T-shirts.

In a boxing gym on a weekday in Hollywood, it was just a few men in orange shirts - barely worth a mention on the local news. But, when it's the Heavyweight Champion of the World speaking -- beamed round the world, it's a powerful message to a country of 48 million.

Klitschko made the point over and over again that he wanted to destroy Williams, the man who destroyed his dream of beating Mike Tyson. There was nothing derisive in his manner or his speech about Williams. Just a combat objective. He gave Williams his props and said he was surprised at his skills and how he took Tyson's punches.

Klitschko is no pug; he knows every nuance of the promotional game.

He considered himself "a Ukrainian, a sportsman of the world." And, when speaking to foreign journalists, he named the largest sports venue in their capitols and said he hoped to appear there some day.

To the question of how much longer he'll box, "I don't want to be punching bag for the new generation," he replied.

Tom Loeffler, Head of K2 Promotions, and Klitschko's promoter, moved unceremoniously 'round the room checking everything and speaking quickly to a few people. With his arms folded in front of him, he either had excellent posture or he was always on his toes straining to see more. He had more the look of a business whiz than someone involved in the rough-and tumble of professional boxing.

Photographer Jan Sanders, who speaks Dutch -- which is akin to German -- translated for me with Sdundek. I asked how he knew when Klitschko was in peak condition. He talked about how quickly his pulse rate returned to normal after a strenuous stair-climbing exercise.

As the press filtered out, Wladamir Klitschko came in wearing an orange T-shirt and jeans. We spoke briefly in the entrance. I suspect because he'd been savaged in the press, he was gun-shy of a hatchet job. When I asked how he handled disappointment in his life? His antenna went up. 
"What do you mean?" He said, looking me in the eye for an agenda.

I tried again and, after breath, he said, "Of course, you try to do the best you can. If you have a positive result, everyone supports you with that. If you get something not really right, of course, you get some shots&#8230;The way to the top is very long&#8230;very difficult, but the way back," he smiled, "is much faster! It's just one step." His face formed the same smile and he went on to join his brother.

Vitali is not an awesome giant in person - despite the Ivan Drago comparisons -- he puts one right at ease. He doesn't cultivate being the baddest man on the planet. He lets his fists do the talking in the ring. He's a sportsman.

One could readily imagine him with a saber scar on his cheek. He has military bearing, and the phrase: "an officer and a gentleman" suits him to a T.


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> Wasn't trying ta give that impression of Vitali, B. (maybe I haven't come to terms with my own agenda) Just my observations of him at the presser.


No worries, nobody could accuse you of having an agenda, JG. You're an objective observer who writes with the passion of a fan. I have no doubt you captured the press conference accurately. A snapshot of the K's when there was some considerable tension beneath the glacial professionalism.


----------



## Twelvey

Del Boy said:


> Haha for real? That would be a real achievement. But then again hed have to be a bit of a nutter to do this ....


:rofl


----------



## john garfield

Being ringside at events or fights, profiles, funny incidents, pick your poison. We aims ta please


----------



## O59

Great stuff about Klitschko and Williams. I've seen the picture of you and Pacquiao, JG. What was Manny like?


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> Great stuff about Klitschko and Williams. I've seen the picture of you and Pacquiao, JG. What was Manny like?


Can't do it now, or. Will get back to you in detail.

P.S. Where'd ya see the pic of Pac 'n I?


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> Can't do it now, or. Will get back to you in detail.
> 
> P.S. Where'd ya see the pic of Pac 'n I?


No problem. :thumbsup
I recall you posting the picture before, or a link to it.


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> No problem. :thumbsup
> I recall you posting the picture before, or a link to it.


*REFLECTIONS OF PACQUIAO*

First saw Pac when he came to Wild Card in L.A. after destroying Ledwaba, who looked a world-beater at 122, but Pac was only a hot item to boxing insiders and gym rats. Most fans couldn't say Pacquiao, let alone spell it.

He was in his 20s then, more child than man/child. Understood 'n spoke no English, but had the most engaging grin, 'n gracious nature. He shared a grungy single room at a nearby motel with Gerry Penalosa, his friend and mentor, living on greasy fast foods. Their days were regimented: roadwork at the crack of dawn, running the seamy streets of Hollywood; training at WC twice a day and going to church on Sundays. The hard-partier hadn't surfaced at that time.

Pac had boundless energy.

With his huge calves, he sprang around the ring sparring, like a kangaroo.

What he threw looked like arm punches, which I told him, and he giggled, "but they keep falling down," he said. Still at Jr. feather --with big gloves -- he sparked sparring partners, some as heavy as welters, with that left that had a mind of it's own.

Even though i spoke no Tagolag or Spanish, we got along well-- mostly with improvised sign language. Think his people spoke-up for me, realizing I had no ax to grind or wanted any perks, just observing 'n reporting best I could.

Manny and his team always made me welcome', whether it was at meals, all the pre-fight hoopla, in his suite in Vegas, at the fights, 'n on the Team Pac bus back to L.A. (deafeningly quiet after the last Marques fight)

Saw him last before the third Marquez fight. The delightful boy had transitioned to man; years of life experience in his eyes and the price on his face. The cherub had become Zorba the Greek.


----------



## GazOC

Jeez, JG!!! At the risk of blowing smoke up your arse, having been in gyms in times spanning Ray Robinson and Manny Pac, thats *SOME* life you've lived!!!:good


----------



## john garfield

GazOC said:


> Jeez, JG!!! At the risk of blowing smoke up your arse, having been in gyms in times spanning Ray Robinson and Manny Pac, thats *SOME* life you've lived!!!:good


Been a helluva ride,G. Lottsa memories as vivid now as they were in the '40s.


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> First saw Pac when he came to Wild Card in L.A. after destroying Ledwaba, who looked a world-beater at 122, but Pac was only a hot item to boxing insiders and gym rats. Most fans couldn't say Pacquiao, let alone spell it.
> 
> He was in his 20s then, more child than man/child. Understood 'n spoke no English, but had the most engaging grin, 'n gracious nature. He shared a grungy single room at a nearby motel with Gerry Penalosa, his friend and mentor, living on greasy fast foods. Their days were regimented: roadwork at the crack of dawn, running the seamy streets of Hollywood; training at WC twice a day and going to church on Sundays. The hard-partier hadn't surfaced at that time.
> 
> Pac had boundless energy.
> 
> With his huge calves, he sprang around the ring sparring, like a kangaroo.
> 
> What he threw looked like arm punches, which I told him, and he giggled, "but they keep falling down," he said. Still at Jr. feather --with big gloves -- he sparked sparring partners, some as heavy as welters, with that left that had a mind of it's own.
> 
> Even though i spoke no Tagolag or Spanish, we got along well-- mostly with improvised sign language. Think his people spoke-up for me, realizing I had no ax to grind or wanted any perks, just observing 'n reporting best I could.
> 
> Manny and his team always made me welcome', whether it was at meals, all the pre-fight hoopla, in his suite in Vegas, at the fights, 'n on the Team Pac bus back to L.A. (deafeningly quiet after the last Marques fight)
> 
> Saw him last before the third Marquez fight. The delightful boy had transitioned to man; years of life experience in his eyes and the price on his face. The cherub had become Zorba the Greek.


Pacquiao sounds like a decent guy, thanks for that. :good


----------



## Ilesey

Great stuff here, John.


----------



## john garfield

Ilesey said:


> Great stuff here, John.


got lots more forya, I


----------



## DrMo

Did you ever see Michael Moorer in LA? Any tales to tell?


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> Did you ever see Michael Moorer in LA? Any tales to tell?


*MICHAEL MOORER AT WILD CARD*

Saw lots of Michael Moore at Wild Card in L.A., DM. Will put-up some reflections about him.

Michael emanates danger. BEWARE! He roils with barely-suppressed anger. Definitely not hail-fellow-well-met. At best, soft-spoken 'n polite, but the message is sent from the git-go not to rouse a sleeping tiger.

At WC, where most things are good natured and light, he brought a dark cloud-- put a damper on the mood.

He had a keen eye to help fighters fix flaws


----------



## DrMo

john garfield said:


> Saw lots of Michael Moore at Wild Card in L.A., DM. Will put-up some reflections about him.
> 
> Michael emanates danger. BEWARE! He roils with barely-suppressed anger. Definitely not hail-fellow-well-met. At best, soft-spoken 'n polite, but the message is sent from the git-go not to rouse a sleeping tiger.
> 
> At WC, where most things are good natured and light, he brought a dark cloud-- put a damper on the mood.
> 
> He had a keen eye to help fighters fix flaws


Ive read that he insists on being called Michael & gets angry with anyone who called him Mike, dont know if its true or not. I know he's into his guns & has been in trouble a few times.

MM was a fighter not many people warmed to but I'm a fan, a really good puncher with a strange right-handed southpaw style.

Was he still an active when you saw him in LA or was he strictly training? Any stories you can share would be great :good


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> Ive read that he insists on being called Michael & gets angry with anyone who called him Mike, dont know if its true or not. I know he's into his guns & has been in trouble a few times.
> 
> MM was a fighter not many people warmed to but I'm a fan, a really good puncher with a strange right-handed southpaw style.
> 
> Was he still an active when you saw him in LA or was he strictly training? Any stories you can share would be great :good


*MORE ABOUT MOORER*

Michael was strictly training and assisting Freddie, keeping law 'n order in the gym -- doing it so well, nobody dared get outta line. He reminded me of Toshiro Mifune in YOJIMBO, seeming asleep, but a slashing blade in the blink of an eye.

He did say once in conversation that he favored a super heavy division, for guys over 235


----------



## Del Boy

As ive said before a lucky lucky man, and we are to have you here. 

A question John who was the one fighter in all your years that you saw and everyone around knew they would be special, (for example guys like Larry homles and lennox who were unappreciated in their time but later became greats, along with guys who came nowhere near their true potential). So what i want to know who to everyone around from the get go was an obvious talent who achieved their potential? Did ye look at Robinson and Louis and know you were looking at one of the greatest?

Thanks John

BTW my 100th post, i knew it had to be in you thread :good


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> As ive said before a lucky lucky man, and we are to have you here.
> 
> A question John who was the one fighter in all your years that you saw and everyone around knew they would be special, (for example guys like Larry homles and lennox who were unappreciated in their time but later became greats, along with guys who came nowhere near their true potential). So what i want to know who to everyone around from the get go was an obvious talent who achieved their potential? Did ye look at Robinson and Louis and know you were looking at one of the greatest?
> 
> BTW my 100th post, i knew it had to be in you thread :good


one would haveta been blind not recognize those qualities about SRR 'n Louis, DB.

They went beyond _awesome_, into watching 'n left speechless. Add a hard-drinkin' Pep to the list.


----------



## Del Boy

Absolutely even to a kid like me there greatness is obvious, but you never considered they could be a couple of flashes in the pan? Prehaps before robinson moved up and down through the weights and before louis showed his superb longevity?


----------



## doug.ie

JG...whats your take on amir khan now ?


----------



## Swarmer

just caught up with everything

btw john no need to PM me i lurk the shit out of this thread


----------



## john garfield

Swarmer said:


> just caught up with everything
> 
> btw john no need to PM me i lurk the shit out of this thread


haveta make sure i can locate you, S, in case you disagree with my opinions 'n I haveta hunt-you-down


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> JG...whats your take on amir khan now ?


Saddened by Khan' loss.,doug. Gotta know the kid at Wild Card and like him, genuinely respectful and very hard working.

Back in the day, this would've been just a bad day at the office, an unremembered L on his record -- like Zivic or Archie Moore -- 'n he'd dust himself off 'n be back to scratch to redeem himself 'n realize the promise of his countrymen. But, fighters now are only as good as their last fight.

Vlad Klit's suffered ignominious KO's, and he's back BIG TIME, after being written-off and maligned by every quarter. That takes character.

Early on, thought Amir was gonna do the same to Garcia as he did to Barrera. Shocked by the reversal. But that's the excitement of boxing.

It injects life in the division, specially since every other fighter 'n manager sees Garcia as beatable, albeit gritty.

Certain Khan will back, not sure if it'll be with Roach, though.

A few impressive wins and he'll be back on center stage.

Neglected to give Amir well-earned props for "bottle". Was still throwin' with bad intentions-- specially the uppercut -- when he was on queer street, doin' it on instinct.


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> Absolutely even to a kid like me there greatness is obvious, but *you never considered they could be a couple of flashes in the pan*? Prehaps before robinson moved up and down through the weights and before louis showed his superb longevity?


NEVER FOR A SECOND, DB;and I'd seen ATGs from the time I was toddler. SRR's combinations weren't shoeshines,every shot was meant to decapitate. Louis was a plodding glacier till his jab tagged his opponent with 10 thousand volts -- kept him in place -- and dismembered him like a wood chipper.

Pep did the impossible, always half-in-the-bag. He didn't _puzzle_ opponents; he conducted masterpiece-after-masterpiece, barely touching the canvas.

Had he been a matador, hedda been awarded ears 'n tail every time...but probably woulda turned it down if it kept him from the track.


----------



## Luf

yeah every day I check into this thread, keep the good stuff coming John :good


----------



## john garfield

lufcrazy said:


> yeah every day I check into this thread, keep the good stuff coming John :good


will do, l. With your kind of encouragement, can't do anything else.


----------



## NoMas

just caught up, especially enjoyed the Pacman story... can you post up some pics youve got? I bet you got some golden pics brother! Didnt Roach train some mobster once? Any stories on Mickey Rooke?


----------



## Wallet

Been on holiday for the last week or so. 

Just catching up now, J. :good


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> just caught up, especially enjoyed the Pacman story... can you post up some pics youve got? I bet you got some golden pics brother! Didnt Roach train some mobster once? Any stories on Mickey Rooke?


NM, areya talkin' pics in general or specifically of Pac? Don't remember Freddie trainin' any mafiosos -- though alotta Gs 'n nut-cases worked-out at Wild Card. If memory serves, Teddy Atlas trained Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, John Gotti's right-hand man

My partner an i, when we had at team and gym in N.Y., always had wiseguys in watchin' sparring.

As for Roarke, we both trained at Miami's 5th St.Gym, but I never met Micky. I was there in the early '50s; think he was there in the '70s.


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> NM, areya talkin' pics in general or specifically of Pac? Don't remember Freddie trainin' any mafiosos -- though alotta Gs 'n nut-cases worked-out at Wild Card. If memory serves, Teddy Atlas trained Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, John Gotti's right-hand man
> 
> My partner an i, when we had at team and gym in N.Y., always had wiseguys in watchin' sparring.
> 
> As for Roarke, we both trained at Miami's 5th St.Gym, but I never met Micky. I was there in the early '50s; think he was there in the '70s.


you know what, i think i might of got freddie mixed up with teddy hahaha

just pics in general man, some of your best pics would be great to see


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> you know what, i think i might of got freddie mixed up with teddy hahaha
> 
> just pics in general man, some of your best pics would be great to see


know nothin' bout computers beyond posting 'n Word on my iMac, NM. Will haveta get my daughter (a web designer) ta come ta my rescue and show me howta post pix (which I'll promptly forget)

Truth is,sadly, took few pix, just collected stories.


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> know nothin' bout computers beyond posting 'n Word on my iMac, NM. Will haveta get my daughter (a web designer) ta come ta my rescue and show me howta post pix (which I'll promptly forget)
> 
> Truth is,sadly, took few pix, just collected stories.


ok man cool, i use photobucket... shame there where no camera phones around in them days lol


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> ok man cool, i use photobucket... *shame there where no camera phones around in them days* lol


thought of carving in stone, but it took too long, NM


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> thought of carving in stone, but it took too long, NM


:rofl


----------



## john garfield

*B-HOP BAITS THE HOOK FOR TAYLOR*

The hand's quicker than the eye. It's all about distraction. Bernard Hopkins should be in the Three-Card-Monty Hall of Fame. Had he planned a heist as smooth as this, he'd never have spent a day at Graterford.

Stretching through the ropes for Emanuel Steward at ringside -- before his route of Tarver was announced - the head of acquisitions for Golden Boy, with words worthy of Camp David for Jermain Taylor, put designs on the middleweight king and planted the seeds of insurrection without leaving a fingerprint. (Where's CSI when you need them) &#8230;Not a bleat from Lou DiBella, Taylor's promoter. Not an accusation in the media, or screed on the web&#8230; And it's two weeks.

The Lufthansa job would still be unsolved if there was less suspicion.

(Only if you re-play the clip with the sound up can you hear Bernard say, "&#8230; Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.")

In fact, with that one calculated beau geste beamed round the world, prisoner Y4145, in his guise of mandarin and Philly "Ambassador of Peace," is being lauded from every quarter - _distraction_. The way a sullen George Foreman came back a cuddly bear after 10 years.

_Sure he did_.

Bernard's out there glad-handing, basking in the well-deserved glow of doing what idol Sugar Ray Robinson couldn't: winning the light heavyweight crown -- just a magnanimous class act on the rubber-chicken circuit.

And I gotta bridge I'd like to sell you.

Probably coincidence that there's an exhibit on Benjamin Franklin as a spy at Philly's National Constitution Center.

Taylor, interviewed on TV, remarked about X's gracious comments: "I respect that man for leaning over the ropes saying what he said about me." The hook's in&#8230;Hearing footsteps, Lou?

The Israelis didn't do it better at Entebbe.

Now, ever so slowly to reel him in&#8230;Let it be Jermain's idea - no rush, Bernard's in it for the long con. Putting a stake through the heart of DiBella's company and profiting, to boot, would be icing on the cake and eating it too, considering DiBella won a $610,000 libel judgment against him.

In D Block rep's everything, but Bernard's a statesman now. _I'm sure he's let it slide_.

'&#8230;and I'm sure Brutus is an honorable man'

Phillip Seymour Hoffman could take lessons from Hopkins, seeing him shape-shift from chilling thug to genial jock in understated designer threads encouraging questions from scribes he has no more in common with then the dentist living next door to Tony Soprano.

But he sells it - body language pliable -- charm from a spigot -- leans in one-on-one -- talks to, not at -- listens - uses first names -- asks about family - slam dunk!&#8230;And that in spite of a diamond-crusted watch that only a heavyweight could lift.

But for those who think sashes and keys to the city will mellow an aging lion to a tabby, they're confusing the photo-op smile with the man. _Distraction_. He's Roberto Duran with restraint; the kind learned where a misstep gets you shanked.

His education's street, but he's never misunderstood. That's not to say: What you see is what you get - distraction.

He's a chess player -- always a couple jumps ahead. Picks his battlefield - circles, surveys, feints for mistakes. Doesn't mix no matter how many catcalls -- listens only to his own council. Waits waits waits for the opening. Pounces, as if placing a dagger, and back out of danger. His anthem should be "My Way."

You don't keep a 27-inch waist at 6'1" for 17 years without accepting: 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'

Archie Moore could better pull off sage-emeritus; he was born middle-aged - always a sensei. Hopkins is like Barbie: in his 40s but looks half it. Forget Mackie Shilstone; check Dorian Grey.

Hopkins won't go gently into the good night. 'What are you rebelling against? What've you got? MySpace over eharmony.

So while every '75-pounder shouts to get at grandpa, and the rumor mills work overtime -- _distraction_. DiBella should be listening for the theme from "Jaws."

It's not a deal till Taylor's name's on the dotted line, but DiBella might think about Satchel Paige's advice: 'Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you.'

The coda of any police procedural: Just follow the money.


----------



## O59

^ That's some great stuff!


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> ^ That's some great stuff!


Can I count on the keys to Waterford, o?


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> Can I count on the keys to Waterford, o?


:good


----------



## john garfield

*ARTIE LEVINE RECALLS HIS LONG-COUNT KO OF SUGAR RAY ROBINSON*

"We boxed the first few rounds and I was doing pretty good, maybe the fight
was even after the fourth. In the fifth round I hit him with a left hook which
dropped him. He was on his back. As they led me back to the corner I could see
he was out cold.

"After the ref left me off at my corner, he went back to Ray to count over him
but to everybody's amazement he started at one. The count went to nine before
the bell saved him. Had the ref begun the count when he should have, I'd have
a five-round KO over Robinson on my record.

"I had him down again in the seventh but this time he got up unhurt. As the
fight went on I realized something about him I didn't know before -- he was
one hell of a puncher. In the 10th and final round, he was desperate, throwing
punches at random. He became treacherous and hit me a good shot that landed on
my Adam's apple. I started to gasp for breath and now he was hitting me with a
series of punches. The last one I remember was one to the ear. They counted me
out with only 16 seconds left."

Artie was clearly knocked out but when it was over there wasn't a mark on him.
Robby's face, however, was badly cut and swollen.


----------



## Burt Brooks

JG, a short while later I was at Stillman's gym, and small groups of people were standing around discussing the "long count ". Artie Levine was a good puncher
, but not in the league with a peak Tony Zale...Zale and Robinson would have been a helluva match, both at their bests...


----------



## doug.ie

catching up on last two pieces JG....hopkins one really well written.
there's a book here JG.


----------



## john garfield

*RIDDICK BOWE GIFTED OVER BILLY "THE KID" ZUMBRUN*

It was a masterpiece. Madam Toussaint's finest.

The wax figure of former heavyweight champion Riddick Bowe that showed up four hours late to the weigh-in for his ten-rounder with Billy "The Kid" Zumbrun was near perfect, down to the U.S.M.C. tat on his shoulder. A bigger model, granted - 280 pounds, but the genius was in the details. The artisans had captured the slouch, the Cheshire grin, the "Brooklyn all the way" shout-outs to the adoring&#8230;He was remarkably life like.

There were some gulps when Bowe's weight was announced. But he's a wide body, and, yes, there was a stomach going South and flesh melting over his beltline, but he wasn't a poster boy for diabetes - more the Foreman that came out of retirement, with less muscle tone. 
Not a single fight guy tumbled to the ruse.

When faux Bowe ambled across the ring in the first round to engage Billy "The Kid", the only ones that knew Zumbrun were in his corner. The script required another W in Bowe's rebuilding program.

This was the Bowe that Zumbrun had seen on TV and boxing magazines: Two times heavyweight champ, a single loss in 42 fights, epic wars with Evander Holyfield and Golota -- a dreadnaught to stay clear of. Zumbrun was tentative in the first round, like a demolition expert wary of a bomb.

Zumbrun has a Masters Degree, and he'd applied himself in the ten-day crash course with Cornelius Boza-Edwards on how to frustrate Bowe and be effective. Zumbrun circled to the right - moved side to side -- out of reach, darted in, clutched and slid off again to the right. Good strategy. But, with short arms and a linebacker's body and temperament, bull-rushing seemed more appropriate.

He didn't storm the cardboard likeness of the ex-champ. He was cautioned.

Zumbrun fought the reputation, and gave away the first round. It made the difference in the final tally. Judges looked at columns of figures, totaled them, and two out of three added up for Bowe.

But the almost 1900 in the Grand Ballroom of the Pechanga Resort & Casino thought otherwise and voted with their voices -- drowning out Jimmy Lennon Jr. -- protesting the verdict

It was a perfect example of: What's logical is not always right. Bowe got more points but Zumbrun won the fans. For an unknown with 25 pro fights, he deserved to be hoisted on the shoulders of his corner men, not for a gallant effort but a win. He earned bragging rights.

Many in the crowd raged at the injustice and had to be restrained.

Two experienced judges saw it for Bowe, 96-92. The third, Ray Corona, saw it for Zumbrun, 95-93, as did this reporter.

It came down to preferences. Bowe did reach Zumbrun consistently with jabs. They were clear -- easy to see, like movie punches -- and added to Bowe's punch stats. But aside from the one moment that Bowe looked like his old self in the fourth, sinking a left hook wrist deep to Zumbrun's liver, forcing him to a knee; he was lethargic -- never let his hands go. When he did, it was one-at-a-time, not in combination - usually, off the mark -- and always ponderous. Zumbrun did the real damage.

When Bowe shuffled forward behind the jab, to Goossen's urging, it was not a contest, only a question of how quickly Bowe would dispose of the upstart. But, for the most part, the spear was his offense. Either he had respect for Zumbrun's punches, or his reserves were in question.

Zumbrun showed the ingredient that separates real fighters: He came back stronger than ever after he was dropped. Not easy to summon courage when a glacier's bearing down. Had the bell not sounded when it did in the fifth, Bowe would have been stopped against the ropes. He was taking a shellacking. The ref was just about to jump in.

Zumbrun's punches drove through and around Bowe's guard and struck him like bunker busters, shaking him and snapping his head back. The barrage was so furious; Bowe couldn't roll with all of them. It was a flash back to Holmes brutalizing Ali. The crowd rose-up for the underdog, but it was sad sight. 
Bowe tried to keep his aplomb, and his dignity, but he was hurt, and the intimidation factor was gone.

After the fifth, the fans were believers. This no name could pull off the upset and end Bowe's comeback abruptly. There was a groundswell building for Zumbrun. He wasn't cannon fodder. He was live, and meant business.

What may have proved a critical deduction for Zumbrun; the referee took a point from him for excessive holding in the eighth. It didn't stir a ripple at the time; the fans were so anxious to get on with the action.

Zumbrun had power but not the reflexes or training to slip a jab or ride with it. All Bowe's landed flush - very showy. They weren't Liston 2x4s - more like a carpenter extending a ruler. Zumbrun was at the end of most, and ate them as the price to attack.

They added up enough - on two official's cards -- to out-weigh the damage of all Zumbrun's punishment.

Zumbrun did more than Bowe in the 9th, and deserved a 10-8 round for the final, he belabored Bowe so decisively. 
But, it was the infraction, Bowe's jab, and the knockdown that cost Zumbrun the fight. The fans only remembered a near-helpless Bowe against the ropes. Bowe had a different take on it after the fight: " You can't win a fight throwing five punches. Two minutes and thirty seconds, he didn't do nothing."

Zumbrun will have to settle for a moral victory, but it should earn him another TV shot. He's a crowd pleaser. And now has some visibility. "It gives me more confidence," Zumbrun said after the fight. But, he put it in perspective, "If he (Bowe) goes and gets knocked out by the number 20 guy in world, it kind of erases my name."

There were hints of the old Bowe, but, mostly, he looked a journeyman.

When Bowe confers with wife, Terri -- who doesn't mince words -- Joe Goossen and Jimmy Adams about the future, they'll make the point forcefully: No opponent will swoon at the mere mention of Riddick's name, from now on. Fighters will be tripping over each other to claim his scalp.

So far, Bowe's adopted George Forman's playbook: handshakes and autographs for fans; an open door to the media; pick soft touches; fight often; forget the criticism -- a win is a win -- build up the W's; bank the money and seize the moment, like Foreman did with Moorer. "Big Daddy" will be under 40, if he stays on schedule. A kid compared to Forman.

Boxing's a fickle business -- a couple of wins, a quick knockout or two and this listless performance will be forgotten.

Joe Goossen told reporters after the fight, "Give me five-six weeks with him - a strength coach, a dietician, my running guy, and me in the gym, he'll be a different Bowe. Riddick added, "Give me six weeks and I'll be down to 240-250."

Promoter Dan Goossen thought publicist Bill Caplan said it best, 'George Forman didn't look much better in his first fight back in Sacramento.'

It took months for Bowe to prove he wasn't brain damaged to get a license. Another showing like this and he may not have the evidence to document it.


----------



## DrMo

Great piece JG, Bowe was a hero of mine growing up. A great personality & a fantastic fighter, his career was perhaps one of the most colourful Ive ever followed.

I still cant sit down & watch his comeback fights all the way through, its just too depressing. Really enjoyed reading that, did you ever meet Bowe personally?


----------



## john garfield

DrMo said:


> Great piece JG, Bowe was a hero of mine growing up. A great personality & a fantastic fighter, his career was perhaps one of the most colourful Ive ever followed.
> 
> I still cant sit down & watch his comeback fights all the way through, its just too depressing. Really enjoyed reading that, *did you ever meet Bowe personally?*




Spent time with Bowe before 'n after the Zumbrun fight


----------



## O59

Nice story of Zumbrun nearly pulling off the upset, JG.


----------



## Zico

Thanks JG, another great read.


----------



## Michael

Good stuff John.


----------



## O59

Pity there's no footage of Bowe-Zumbrun. Would have liked to see some of it.


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> Pity there's no footage of Bowe-Zumbrun. Would have liked to see some of it.


It was on SHOWTIME in the U.S., or, but they've never re-released it, to my knowledge.

You'da been saddened at the shape Bowe was in.


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> It was on SHOWTIME in the U.S., or, but they've never re-released it, to my knowledge.
> 
> You'da been saddened at the shape Bowe was in.


I couldn't find it on my YouTube, so it doesn't exist to me. :lol:


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> I couldn't find it on my YouTube, so it doesn't exist to me. :lol:


Useless on a computer, o (my daughter hasta save my bacon, daily) Ifya P.M. an email address, I'll send a pic I took at the fight. "Big Daddy" looks more like Buster Matthis.


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> Useless on a computer, o (my daughter hasta save my bacon, daily) Ifya P.M. an email address, I'll send a pic I took at the fight. "Big Daddy" looks more like Buster Matthis.


Damn shame that Bowe ended up as he did. :-(


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> Damn shame that Bowe ended up as he did. :-(


are you P.M.ing an email address so I can get you that picture, o?


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> are you P.M.ing an email address so I can get you that picture, o?


Sure thing JG.


----------



## GazOC

Bowe-Zumbrun sounds similar to the draw Joe Frazier got against Jumbo Cummings. At least Bowe and Frazier both had the sense to take the hint and retire.


----------



## john garfield

GazOC said:


> *Bowe-Zumbrun sounds similar to the draw Joe Frazier got against Jumbo Cummings*. At least Bowe and Frazier both had the sense to take the hint and retire.


damn good comparison, G


----------



## GazOC

Cheers JG!:good

Cummings came over here a few years after the Frazier fight as very much the "opponent" for Frank Bruno and gave him one hell of scare before getting stopped. A few fights later Bonecrusher Smith confirmed the flaws in Brunos game and KO'd him.


----------



## O59

In the picture you sent me, Bowe looks pretty bad. :-(


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> In the picture you sent me, *Bowe looks pretty bad*. :-(


an understatement, o -- just flesh,no muscle


----------



## john garfield

*ANCHONDO TOP-GUN REFLEXES KEY TO BEING THE NEXT GOLDEN BOY*

Aside from his faithful in La Puente and gym rats and smart boxers and trainers in Los Angeles, "Mighty" Mike Anchondo (23-0) is not a household name.

But like a comedy stand-up that's worked the lounges in obscurity until he's ready for his shot on the Leno show, this 21-year-old made the most of his opportunity last night at Oscar De La Hoya's "Boxeo De Oro" at the Grand Olympic Auditorium, thoroughly beating, outclassing, out speeding and outthinking the former WBC Super Feather, IBU Lightweight, and IBA Super Feather Champion, Gregorio "Goyo" Vargas of Mexico (47-3-1)

The old saying: 'Youth is wasted on the young.' did not hold true for Anchondo. He was awash in the elixir. All of his tools and reflexes were razor sharp and allowed him to do what he did as naturally as breathing.

Right from the opening bell, the stocky 130-pounder, with the head of a middleweight, came out to set the strategy, to make Vargas fight his fight. Like General Patton said, "No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other bastards die for theirs."

So, Anchondo circled, moving right and left, never letting Vargas get set, alternately feinting to draw leads; and at first, just finding the range with jabs, but always much too far away from Vargas for him to do anything.

And like a stick shift leaving an automatic at the stoplight, Anchondo increased his lead every round.

Vargas marched forward, hands high --anxious-- but not panicked to close the distance -- to pin Anchondo against the ropes or in a corner. But not only did Anchondo avoid the traps, spinning off the ropes and out of infighting, he got in an out without retaliation, consistently, getting the best of trades with speedy, surgical combinations. They weren't feather dusters, but they didn't dissuade Vargas from continuing to look like the Terminator.

But Vargas was chastened enough by an Anchondo left uppercut in the fourth -- that made him look like a drunk trying to hide the fact -- that he tempered his attack, giving Anchondo even more room to operate.

It was deja vu all over again every round. Anchondo increased the frequency and intensity of his darting-in combinations and lead right hands; and Vargas, like a heat-seeking missile, was unswerving, but never lost his composure. He seemed to settle in to the mindset: I'm gonna take you into the deep water and drown you. You could almost hear the theme from "JAWS" under the Mariachi music blaring in the arena.

At the end of the fifth round, when Vargas backed up to gather himself after throwing a fusillade of punches, Anchondo came off the ropes like Ricardo Mayorga, snarling and gesturing, _Bring it!_

From my vantage point, I couldn't see the punch that was ruled a knockdown for Anchondo in the sixth. But from the look on Vargas's face as he raised himself off the canvas and he held the back of his head and winced, mouthing to the ref: "It was a rabbit punch!"; he was hoping it would be disallowed and Anchondo warned. But the knockdown counted. And Vargas went back to his corner with a look of frustration and a pronounced mouse on his right eye.

Like a bullfighter sensing the Moment-of-Truth, Anchondo waded into Vargas, throwing caution aside, in the seventh, driving him to the ropes with combinations meant to finish him, slipping what few returns Vargas could muster and renewing his attack even stronger.

Vargas just went into a shell, believing he was moving just enough to avoid the real impact of the blows and waiting his moment to fire back. Anchondo's blows looked like "ROCKY" sinking his punches into the side-of-beef. Vargas did try to flurry at the end of the round, and even thrust out his chest: Is that the best you got? as the bell sounded.

But most fighters suffer the same delusion when they cover up on the ropes, thinking they're deflecting shots, taking them on their arms, avoiding damage and getting a breather. They have no idea how much it's dwindled their reserves.

Vargas pulled out all the stops in the last three rounds, trying to pressure Anchondo into trading -- his only hope. Vargas did land singular, thumping shots to the head and body, but Anchondo never lost his poise or his focus-- and that's sayin' something -- 30 of Vargas's 47 wins have been KO's.

But, Vargas's attack was still one-dimensional, and the pattern remained the same. Vargas, though proud, was bruised and spent, and Anchondo was as fresh going into the tenth as he was at the opening bell.

Anchondo was booed in the last round for sitting on a lead, keeping as much distance between he and Vargas as possible, stopping only to jab and shoeshine to blunt Vargas's final assault, build up points, and run out the clock.

When the final bell rang, Anchondo leaped into the arms of his team, and Vargas just hung his head and went to his corner without expression -- which said volumes.

The judges scored it for Anchondo: 100-89, 98-91, and 97-92. This reporter had it 100-89.

The fight was much like the first Louis-Conn go, except this time Louis never caught up with Conn. And Anchondo never succumbed to Conn's folly.

Anchondo is 5'5', with short arms, but his overall ability, ring generalship and hand speed make you forget that, and levels the playing field against anybody at his weight. Much like Toney's invasion of the heavyweights.

Two things are nettling for this work-in-progress (and his Top Gun reflexes have bailed him out so far) He's bolt upright -- his head stationary -- when he exchanges and when he squares up fighting off the ropes.

Now, at the peak of his reflexes, he sees the punches coming. But one miscalculation could transform him into the next David Reid. But how do you get through to a young man, 23-0, who, with almost impunity, made a former three-time world champion look like a journeyman.


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> *ANCHONDO TOP-GUN REFLEXES KEY TO BEING THE NEXT GOLDEN BOY*
> 
> Aside from his faithful in La Puente and gym rats and smart boxers and trainers in Los Angeles, "Mighty" Mike Anchondo (23-0) is not a household name.
> 
> But like a comedy stand-up that's worked the lounges in obscurity until he's ready for his shot on the Leno show, this 21-year-old made the most of his opportunity last night at Oscar De La Hoya's "Boxeo De Oro" at the Grand Olympic Auditorium, thoroughly beating, outclassing, out speeding and outthinking the former WBC Super Feather, IBU Lightweight, and IBA Super Feather Champion, Gregorio "Goyo" Vargas of Mexico (47-3-1)
> 
> The old saying: 'Youth is wasted on the young.' did not hold true for Anchondo. He was awash in the elixir. All of his tools and reflexes were razor sharp and allowed him to do what he did as naturally as breathing.
> 
> Right from the opening bell, the stocky 130-pounder, with the head of a middleweight, came out to set the strategy, to make Vargas fight his fight. Like General Patton said, "No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other bastards die for theirs."
> 
> So, Anchondo circled, moving right and left, never letting Vargas get set, alternately feinting to draw leads; and at first, just finding the range with jabs, but always much too far away from Vargas for him to do anything.
> 
> And like a stick shift leaving an automatic at the stoplight, Anchondo increased his lead every round.
> 
> Vargas marched forward, hands high --anxious-- but not panicked to close the distance -- to pin Anchondo against the ropes or in a corner. But not only did Anchondo avoid the traps, spinning off the ropes and out of infighting, he got in an out without retaliation, consistently, getting the best of trades with speedy, surgical combinations. They weren't feather dusters, but they didn't dissuade Vargas from continuing to look like the Terminator.
> 
> But Vargas was chastened enough by an Anchondo left uppercut in the fourth -- that made him look like a drunk trying to hide the fact -- that he tempered his attack, giving Anchondo even more room to operate.
> 
> It was deja vu all over again every round. Anchondo increased the frequency and intensity of his darting-in combinations and lead right hands; and Vargas, like a heat-seeking missile, was unswerving, but never lost his composure. He seemed to settle in to the mindset: I'm gonna take you into the deep water and drown you. You could almost hear the theme from "JAWS" under the Mariachi music blaring in the arena.
> 
> At the end of the fifth round, when Vargas backed up to gather himself after throwing a fusillade of punches, Anchondo came off the ropes like Ricardo Mayorga, snarling and gesturing, _Bring it!_
> 
> From my vantage point, I couldn't see the punch that was ruled a knockdown for Anchondo in the sixth. But from the look on Vargas's face as he raised himself off the canvas and he held the back of his head and winced, mouthing to the ref: "It was a rabbit punch!"; he was hoping it would be disallowed and Anchondo warned. But the knockdown counted. And Vargas went back to his corner with a look of frustration and a pronounced mouse on his right eye.
> 
> Like a bullfighter sensing the Moment-of-Truth, Anchondo waded into Vargas, throwing caution aside, in the seventh, driving him to the ropes with combinations meant to finish him, slipping what few returns Vargas could muster and renewing his attack even stronger.
> 
> Vargas just went into a shell, believing he was moving just enough to avoid the real impact of the blows and waiting his moment to fire back. Anchondo's blows looked like "ROCKY" sinking his punches into the side-of-beef. Vargas did try to flurry at the end of the round, and even thrust out his chest: Is that the best you got? as the bell sounded.
> 
> But most fighters suffer the same delusion when they cover up on the ropes, thinking they're deflecting shots, taking them on their arms, avoiding damage and getting a breather. They have no idea how much it's dwindled their reserves.
> 
> Vargas pulled out all the stops in the last three rounds, trying to pressure Anchondo into trading -- his only hope. Vargas did land singular, thumping shots to the head and body, but Anchondo never lost his poise or his focus-- and that's sayin' something -- 30 of Vargas's 47 wins have been KO's.
> 
> But, Vargas's attack was still one-dimensional, and the pattern remained the same. Vargas, though proud, was bruised and spent, and Anchondo was as fresh going into the tenth as he was at the opening bell.
> 
> Anchondo was booed in the last round for sitting on a lead, keeping as much distance between he and Vargas as possible, stopping only to jab and shoeshine to blunt Vargas's final assault, build up points, and run out the clock.
> 
> When the final bell rang, Anchondo leaped into the arms of his team, and Vargas just hung his head and went to his corner without expression -- which said volumes.
> 
> The judges scored it for Anchondo: 100-89, 98-91, and 97-92. This reporter had it 100-89.
> 
> The fight was much like the first Louis-Conn go, except this time Louis never caught up with Conn. And Anchondo never succumbed to Conn's folly.
> 
> Anchondo is 5'5', with short arms, but his overall ability, ring generalship and hand speed make you forget that, and levels the playing field against anybody at his weight. Much like Toney's invasion of the heavyweights.
> 
> Two things are cause for concern for this work-in-progress -- and his Top Gun reflexes have bailed him out so far: He's bolt upright -- his head stationary -- when he exchanges and when he squares up fighting off the ropes.
> 
> Now, at the peak of his reflexes, he sees the punches coming. But one miscalculation could transform him into the next David Reid. But how do you get through to a young man, 23-0, who, with almost impunity, made a former three-time world champion look like a journeyman.


Very interesting. I'd honestly never even heard of this guy before. Nice.


----------



## McGrain

Sweet.


----------



## Roe

More superb stuff JG :clap:


----------



## NoMas

Bowe is one of My favorite all time fighters, He never gets the credit He deserves from the average fight fans... Maybe not being in bed with Don King didnt help him back then... Great stuff JG...


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> Bowe is one of My favorite all time fighters, He never gets the credit He deserves from the average fight fans... Maybe not being in bed with Don King didnt help him back then... Great stuff JG...


Check-out the Anchondo story after it, NM. When I watched Anchondo fight, even though he was a sure-fire super star in L.A., I felt like Max Schmeling when he looked at Joe Louis: "I see something"

That _something_ turned out to be his Achilles Heel, and he soon crashed 'n burned.


----------



## john garfield

Toe said:


> *More superb stuff JG :clap:*


I'll giveya two hours ta stop, T

Why'd ya change your avatar name?


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> Check-out the Anchondo story after it, NM. When I watched Anchondo fight, even though he was a sure-fire super star in L.A., I felt like Max Schmeling when he looked at Joe Louis: "I see something"
> 
> That _something_ turned out to be his Achilles Heel, and he soon crashed 'n burned.


i read it brother, was a great read... like orriray59 i had never heard of him, but i made a note on my 'checkout' list to look for some of his fights :good


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> i read it brother, was a great read... like orriray59 i had never heard of him, but i made a note on my 'checkout' list to look for some of his fights :good


Look at Mike's early ones at 130, NM. Above that, because of his height 'n reach and his refusal to correct his straight-up, squared-up attacking style, he was soon a sittin' duck

it was sad to see. The strikingly handsome personality kid ( that had the world at his feet) ballooned to an overweight, beat-up trial horse.


----------



## Vic

Brilliant stuff John :good


----------



## john garfield

*ROACH Q&A ABOUT PAC BEFORE MARQUEZ I*

Ever lose a ten in a bar bet when somebody said, "I'm gonna put this ten-dollar bill between your fingers and let it go; if you can catch it before it hit's the ground, it's yours?"

It's right there; all you have to do is press your fingertips together. But no matter how you anticipate - set yourself - even jump the gun -- it gets away &#8230; time after time. It's a sucker bet. It's just too fast for you to react to, and too tempting not to keep trying.

That's what Juan Manuel Marquez will be trying to do with Manny Pacquiao when the two face off for Marquez's IBF and WBC 126-pound titles on May 8 at the MGM Grand Hotel & Casino in Vegas on HBO. Pacquiao will be an arm's length away, standing straight up, his head an inviting target. But, is it a sucker bet, with the stakes in the millions, and only pain and frustration for Marquez's trouble? The winner is already slated to fight "El Terrible," Erik Morales, for his WBC Super Featherweight crown on HBO in the fall.

The next few months will secure the winner's place in history, the hearts of their countrymen, not to mention their bank accounts. Pacquiao is already a national treasure in the Philippines. President Arroyo has greeted him after wins; and his grin makes him the best ambassador the country could have. Marquez comes out of the Tony Zale mold -- all business, solid skills and a body snatcher, with the indelible stamp of trainer Nacho Berastain. If Pacquiao needed any more incentive not to stand still, all he'd have to do is look at the tape of what Marquez did to Robbie Peden, and be reminded of his 33 KO's in 42 fights.

Pacquiao is more than a stand-up boxer. He's a stand-up slugger with springs in his legs and nimble as a stoat. He's at military attention, as if scanning for a better view of the battlefield. His punches have eyes, with the repetition of years. They're not tracers, they're dam busters - shocking in their suddenness.

The other day, I described the awe and admiration at the Wild Card Gym when Pacquiao was working the mitts with Freddie Roach. Since then, I've wondered why -- where the elite fighters in the world train - who've seen it all - would a mitt drill spontaneously draw applause like they were witness to Segovia on the guitar.

So, I put it to Freddie Roach:

Q: Legends train here; nobody even glances at somebody hitting a bag or skipping rope. But, you heard it; they all applauded after Manny finished the mitts. Why? Could he do that in a fight?

FR: He can definitely do it in a fight! When we do the mitts, everyone stops and watches. Heavy bag, same way - everyone stops and watches&#8230;because he's got so much power and fire in him. He's so quick. He just puts it all together. He's an amazing athlete. He's like Bruce Lee. He's unbelievable with the quickness of his feet and hands&#8230;It's part of our strategy for this fight. Because this guy's (Marquez) a little bit of a counter puncher, we're gonna land combinations and then be gone. There's gonna be a lot of in and out, side-to-side movements. The difference between the two fighters&#8230; is Manny's hand and foot speed. So, we're working on a lot of angles, and not standing in front of this guy after he's landed combinations. We're still seven weeks away from the fight&#8230;and it's still early, but you see how Manny works&#8230;This kid makes my job fun. He loves to work hard. He's a great example for the rest of my fighters. It shows the young guys how it's supposed to be done.

Q: He throws with such speed; how does he get that much power out of shots that look like shoe shines?

FR: Yeah, it's true. He has great legs and balance. He turns everything over real crisp and fast. You're right&#8230;'cause a lot of times, speed guys don't have any pop. But this kid hits like a ton! He hits as hard as a middleweight.

Q: Talk about hitting hard, I understand you injured your arm in the mitt drill?

FR: I've got a bad elbow from catching Wladimir Klitschko. Wlad hit me a left hook about six months ago, and my arm's been really sore ever since. I think something might be broken in there. Somebody told me to go to a doctor and get it looked at. But, if I go to a doctor, Joe, he's gonna tell me to rest it. I just don't have the time. So, the first couple rounds it hurts a little bit, but then after I get used to it, it's OK. It's part of the job.

Q: Part of Manny's style is: he's absolutely straight up. How do you compensate for that?

FR: That's why we have the side-to-side movement coming into play. Because after he lands a combination, if he stops punching, he's right in front of you. So, he's got to step off to the side -- left and right, not straight back. It's just something we have to work on, because this guy is gonna try to take advantage of that, of course. It will be part of our game plan. Manny has very good eyes. He sees punches coming. He looks like he's right in front of you&#8230;but he's gone.

Q: He won't retaliate in kind when people get dirty. Why is that?

FR: It's just not in his nature. He's too nice a guy. If a guy hits you low, you gotta hit him back low to get respect back -- tit for tat. That's the way I was brought up. That's the way I was taught. I try to get Manny to do something like that&#8230;It's just not in his nature. So, I don't even teach him anything like that anymore. It's a waste of time.

Q: Has Manny expressed to you what he hopes to bring back to the Philippines as his legacy?

FR: He's a hero in that country right now. He's a role model over there. He wants to show these young kids there is a way out. If you work hard, you can make it; you can achieve greatness in life. So, I think that's what Manny stands for in the Philippines.


----------



## Roe

john garfield said:


> I'll giveya two hours ta stop, T
> 
> Why'd ya change your avatar name?


I was sticking up for David Haye and his broken toe and got criticism for it so thought I'd change it from Roe to Toe. May keep it now just for a bit of a change.


----------



## NoMas

wicked interview jg... bet you where off your feet in the first round haha


----------



## john garfield

*IMPRESSIONS OF JAMES TONEY PREPPING FOR HOLYFIELD AT WILD CARD*

As the days counted down before James Toney faced Evander Holyfield, I went to see him spar and get impressions from everybody about him.

Wild Card personifies: You can't get there from here. It's like the site of a rave -- tucked away behind a mini-mall begging for redevelopment. A fence topped with concertina wire rings the modest parking area. Most days, it's harder to jockey a car than any workout.

Once inside the gym, it takes a moment or two to adjust to the light, or lack of it, like walking into a darkened movie. This small space above a Chinese laundry is the most active gym in California, and any fighter with a reputation, one day or another, makes his way here to train or keep tabs on what's happening. An ESPN 2 video crew is shooting and interviewing Toney and Freddie Roach.

"Run! *****! Run!" Toney chugged over the gym noise through his mouthpiece, puffing out his cheeks, while he stalked and rolled his shoulders towards Terry Smith, a young heavyweight from Little Rock, Arkansas. Toney was all in forest green and a loose basketball jersey; his face scrunched in his headgear, and he never stopped running his mouth. Most of it unintelligible, but you got the attitude.

Every jaded ringsider was like a child watching a carny breathing fire. "Oohs!" and "Ahhs!" and laughter as Toney put on one of his shows that pass for sparring

When the bell sounded, Toney cursed and mocked and insulted Smith-all of it hysterical, with the timing of a Def Jam standup-and every verbal assault as inventive as the angles he attacked from. When they got in close, Toney's body language was barroom instigator... And going back to his corner, he still ran his mouth at Smith, who was turned away.

Even in his corner, being ministered to by a bemused Freddie Roach, Toney didn't stop. "No balls! No heart!" He shouted at Smith. Every remark drew howls, and with every look and gesture, Toney was daring anybody in the room to fight. He was the Alpha.

Like Charles Barkley, he's not arrogant; he tells you how good he is and walks the walk. In the process, he's a press agent's dream. Every syllable a TV sound byte. He's Tex Cobb with world-class talent.

Whenever Toney dissed Smith, Terry made a point of firing back with intensity, showing him he wasn't buffaloed

At the final bell of Smith's last round of sparring, his exhilaration was unbounded. He ran around the ring, yelling and dancing, pumping his arms, "I'm done! I'm done! I'm done!"

While Toney waited for his next sparring partner, a friend at ringside, carrying a little baby, traded good-natured barbs. Between wonderful one-liners-- each original and better than the other-- Toney kept saying, "&#8230; Back in the D&#8230;" to which his friend nodded. Toney wanted everyone to know he was all Detroit. And if anybody had a problem with that, bring it on.

Toney's next sparring partner was a tall, lean cruiser, with excellent skills and good hand and foot speed, Michael Simms, Jr.

Toney would take Simms's flicking jabs off the side of his face and over his shoulder. When Simms threw a combination with some real sting, to show who was in charge-- with no expression on his face, like a shark before a kill -- Toney answered back with unexpected combinations and leverage, all perfectly placed.

Outside the ring, Toney's all volatility; inside, he's totally relaxed, composed. He lets his hands go natural as breathing. A spider waiting for prey.

Toney trashed Simms, as well, and managed to do it while belaboring him against the ropes, without losing concentration. Simms threw hard, double and triple hooks, landing to the head and body. Toney treated Simms's blows as if he'd been feather-dusted, and just rolled his shoulders forward and shifted his weight from orthodox to southpaw, feinting and drawing leads, and shoe-shinning counters to the head and body.

Toney next took on actor Mario Lopez, a super middleweight, who is probably the best and most serious of the celebrities who train and box. He's paid his dues and doesn't look for a pass. He genuinely can fight and punch. He's accepted as one of the WC fighters.

Toney treats him as an equal-trash talk included.

At the end of the second round, Toney landed an almost hidden body punch. It hurt Lopez, who was trying to get his breath in the corner. And, it looked like Lopez might not be able to continue. But, Toney was merciless. "I don't train with Mexicans! No heart! Quit real quick!"

An offended Latino radio interviewer at ringside tried to defend his heritage, speaking up to Toney in the ring, Toney glared at him. The interviewer's resolve drained like water; his voice trailed off, left with a frozen grin.

While Lopez's corner worked on him, Toney kept repeating, "He got one more in him! He ain't done shit!" Lopez came out for one more.

Toney goaded him and forced him to fight against the ropes. 'Your girl should be with me.' When the round ended, Toney leaned in, patted Lopez on the shoulder and whispered some encouragement.

After sparring, before he headed for the showers, Toney took off his jersey. This wasn't Bruce Seldon or Frank Bruno, or even the cannon-ball-muscled of Mike Tyson, about his size-- but more Tim Witherspoon or Buster Douglas. Toney's thickness looks like protective layers over a tank. It isn't about posing for Muscles & Fitness but what you can do in a 20-foot ring.

Square on, heading for the showers, Toney looks more like the linebacker he was in high school, with the strut and menace of a WWF villain.

Conventional wisdom would dictate, with a fight of this magnitude, Toney would be using the best fighters in the world to spar with, men who fought like Holyfield. But he hasn't, and when I posed the question to a trainer &#8230;.

"I think it's because he's so damn good. He's like an Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles type guy. Tony will work with anybody. Because when he's in there sparrin', he's just workin' on his game. He's letting guys throw punches. He's getting his eyes right. He's measurin' people. He does sparring correctly.

He can spar with anyone and profit from it. He knows how to spar. He knows what to work on-things he's gotta do.

Everybody says he's not training correctly for this fight. Everybody says he could be working harder. It seems like he weighed 188 for Jirov. He fought a great fight that night. Now he's fighting Holyfield; he's like 25 pounds heavier. In sparring, he's looked great. At this weight, I didn't think he'd be in shape, but he's going 12-14 rounds sparring, so he must be in shape. He's just carrying the weight better.

He's more confident now than he's ever been. Maybe he just sees something in Holyfield that he thinks is gonna be an easy fight.

I don't see an easy fight, but he's relaxed, he's happy; that to me is important for him, because if he's not happy, he's not focusing."

Q: Why does he never stop talking trash?

"He likes being the bad guy. He just wants to piss people off. He wants to be recognized as a bad ass. He really is a great guy if you ever know him personally"

I then spoke with Terry Smith and Michael Simms leaving the gym.

Q: Terry, what was it like working with Toney?

TS: I've been in camp for four weeks. Ever since day one, it's been a war in the gym. He's getting ready for Holyfield. He's been about business every day in camp. I had to prove myself every day with Toney. He's an experienced fighter, a well-rounded fighter. Slips punches, counter punches, so you have to be on your toes.

It's been a great experience for me. Toney's a great person at heart. A lotta people don't know that. But he's all about business in the ring.

Q: What did you learn from Toney

TS: I've got a good record 18-0, 13 knockouts, but in this business, as you know, each time you get in the ring, you can't underestimate anybody. Any given time, anybody can be put on their back.

With a person of James Toney's experience and craftiness, it's a great experience for me. If I can stand in the ring and make James miss once, I know the punches he's throwing are a lot faster than other heavyweights. So I'll be able to slip their punches and be able to put them on their backs.

Q: What does James do that you can incorporate in your own game?

TS: It's just being patient and calm in everything that you do. Know that you're in control of your own destination.

Q: How do you see the upcoming fight?

TS: The last two performances from Holyfield have not been that big-not showing the old warrior that he used to be. Working with James--his intensity and his power, and the work he's been putting in for the last four weeks, I give the advantage to Toney.

Q: How do you react to James's non-stop trash talking?

TS: When he gets to talking, I just put my earplugs in and block it out.


----------



## GazOC

Is Lopez *that* good JG?


----------



## john garfield

GazOC said:


> Is Lopez *that* good JG?


I didn't gild the lilly, G. Mario was DAMN good -- no poseur. Had more legit KOs 'n KDs sparring than any of the pros -- very heavy hands.

With his nightly show, Mario can't train as much anymore.


----------



## GazOC

I'd heard he was the real deal JG, nice to have it confirmed. Cheers!


----------



## Marvelous Marv

Nice article. Toney...probably one of the best gym fighters ever. Can't imagine him doing a light technical session, well...ever.


----------



## Michael

john garfield said:


> I didn't gild the lilly, G. Mario was DAMN good -- no poseur. Had more legit KOs 'n KDs sparring than any of the pros -- very heavy hands.
> 
> With his nightly show, Mario can't train as much anymore.


Had heard a bit of Mario's interest in fighting before, never heard he was as talented as you say he is. In that case, who knows what might have been had he stepped into the squared circle 20 years ago or so, instead of into showbiz:yep


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Had heard a bit of Mario's interest in fighting before, never heard he was as talented as you say he is. In that case, who knows what might have been had he stepped into the squared circle 20 years ago or so, instead of into showbiz:yep


lemme put a fine point on Mario, S. As you say, had he set his mind on being fighter when he was in teens,'stead of his late 20s, he probably could have been a solid pro. Never out of a match with his punching power in both hands

Four-five years ago, when he was trainin' regular, I'd have picked him to KO anybody his weight in a smoker, and do real well in an amateur tournament, like the Golden Gloves.

Of all the actors 'n celebs that trained at Wild Card, he was the best. Part of his edge was his pretty boy looks. Boxers thought they'd walk through him. They got a rude awakening, liftin' themselves off the canvas.


----------



## NoMas

really enjoyed that toney piece jg...

got anymore mario stories or articles brother?


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> really enjoyed that toney piece jg...
> 
> got anymore mario stories or articles brother?


lemme get my brain workin' with coffee, NM


----------



## Yiddle

jg the Toney post was very interesting 

Thanks


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> really enjoyed that toney piece jg...
> 
> got anymore mario stories or articles brother?


There's a Mario Lopez section in THE SMOKER KEEPS THE FLAME ALIVE that may giveya a better picture of him as a boxer, NM

Click on this link: http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?532-JG-RINGSIDE/page25


----------



## Hook!

orriray59 said:


> Very interesting. I'd honestly never even heard of this guy before. Nice.


i agree, sweet stuff


----------



## Hook!

sparring tales are the best, always enjoy a sparring tale


----------



## Mandanda

Right time to catch up.


----------



## Dave

john garfield said:


> *IMPRESSIONS OF JAMES TONEY PREPPING FOR HOLYFIELD AT WILD CARD*


Another winning post JG! I need to review a few of Toney's fights now, it's been too long. I'd pay good money to be in ear shot of sparring like that, i'm sure many would. Would you say any of his trash talk and intimidation during sparring was practice for fight night or was it all true to the moment, just how he operated in the square circle at all times?


----------



## O59

Loved the piece on Toney. James is one of my favorite boxers ever.


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> There's a Mario Lopez section in THE SMOKER KEEPS THE FLAME ALIVE that may giveya a better picture of him as a boxer, NM
> 
> Click on this link: http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?532-JG-RINGSIDE/page25


yeah i read that brother, i read all the stories youve posted up... was one of my favorite reads, that and the stillmans one...


----------



## john garfield

Dave said:


> Another winning post JG! I need to review a few of Toney's fights now, it's been too long. I'd pay good money to be in ear shot of sparring like that, i'm sure many would. *Would you say any of his trash talk and intimidation during sparring was practice for fight night or was it all true to the moment, just how he operated in the square circle at all times?*


JT operates like that 24/7, Dave He's a bomb goin' someplace ta happen.


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> JT operates like that 24/7, Dave He's a bomb goin' someplace ta happen.


I've heard before that in person he's not like that, though.


----------



## Dave

john garfield said:


> JT operates like that 24/7, Dave He's a bomb goin' someplace ta happen.


You say 24/7, but did 'his balls grow' when he was on or near canvas? By that I mean, was it his natural environment? Its a hell of a way to live your whole life, all day every day. Bull Seals have that constant stress of being top boy all day every day.

Thinking back about the post, to demand people know you own the ring in training like that, fantastic. It screams confidence and is in its own a call out, i'm here, come and step with me for a while. Amazing!


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> I've heard before that in person he's not like that, though.


Blink at JT the wrong way, or, 'n see what happens. He has a very short fuse.

Only a couple times have I seen the softer side you refer to: When he's around his daughters, damaged ex-fighters (he only respects guys who've walked the walk) and when a fragile-looking Japanese woman photographer, the wife of a cruiserweight, was intimidated by all the fighters in just towels bustling back 'n forth after showers at Wild Card.

James spotted the problem instantly and cleared the way for her.


----------



## Flea Man

Great stuff.


----------



## Jay

@john garfield: How would you fancy making the first post of this a "contents" page - where you can link to each story - and you can keep updating it?

Let me know what you think, if so I'll see if I can work my magic. Or at least delegate it to someone else anyway. :hey


----------



## john garfield

Supermanintights said:


> @john garfield: *How would you fancy making the first post of this a "contents" page - where you can link to each story - and you can keep updating it?*
> 
> Let me know what you think, if so I'll see if I can work my magic. Or at least delegate it to someone else anyway. :hey


Embarrassed to say, S, I'm so computer ignorant, have no idea what the above means, though I'm sure it's intended to better showcase articles.


----------



## john garfield

*90-year-old Jake LaMotta on stage*

http://theater.nytimes.com/2012/07/...lamotta.html?nl=nyregion&emc=edit_ur_20120724


----------



## Jim Bowen

Good man, JG, I always leave your PM's until Tuesday afternoon, as a reminder that I have something new to read at work. Appreciated as always, Jim.


----------



## Michael

john garfield said:


> Embarrassed to say, S, I'm so computer ignorant, have no idea what the above means, though I'm sure it's intended to better showcase articles.


John I think it basically means that a link to every article or story you post on this thread will appear on the opening post of this thread. That would make your stories far easier to access, we wont have to trawl through dozens of pages to read the article we were looking for. Its a good idea, I was think of suggesting it mysel :good


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> John I think *it basically means that a link to every article or story you post on this thread will appear on the opening post of this thread. That would make your stories far easier to access, we wont have to trawl through dozens of pages to read the article we were looking for. Its a good idea, I was think of suggesting it mysel* :good


This I get. Think it's a GREAT idea, S, Will get my daughter (kicking 'n screaming) to guide me through it.


----------



## O59

LaMotta's looking well in that picture, he's a tough bastard for sure.


----------



## john garfield

orriray59 said:


> LaMotta's looking well in that picture, he's a tough bastard for sure.


He speaks well of you, too, o


----------



## O59

john garfield said:


> He speaks well of you, too, o


I wish!


----------



## doug.ie

JG...did you ever meet joe louis adair ?

i just posted a piece i found on him on the last entry here...

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?195-bits-and-pieces


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> JG...did you ever meet joe louis adair ?
> 
> i just posted a piece i found on him on the last entry here...
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?195-bits-and-pieces


I jumped at the computer, doug, ta say, yes I did meet an know Joe Louis when he fought and afterward. But like my wife always tells me: read ALL the words. Didn't see the adair part. Never heard of him. But,I'm gonna click on your link 'n do just that.

P.S. scrolled through the link, d. Found nothing on Joe Louis Adair.


----------



## Twelvey

Loved that Toney piece. He has a a supernatural calmness under pressure. I love it.

Cheers JG.


----------



## doug.ie

john garfield said:


> I jumped at the computer, doug, ta say, yes I did meet an know Joe Louis when he fought and afterward. But like my wife always tells me: read ALL the words. Didn't see the adair part. Never heard of him. But,I'm gonna click on your link 'n do just that.
> 
> P.S. scrolled through the link, d. Found nothing on Joe Louis Adair.


this was it JG...


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> this was it JG...


Thanks for bringin' him to my attention, d. Surprised I'd never heard of him or any gym buzz about it. The woulda spread like wildfire.


----------



## john garfield

*MY FONDEST BOXING MEMORY*

Mine was meeting Jack Dempsey with my dad when I was about six or seven at a his long-gone Broadway restaurant in N.Y.

He came over the size of a building and bent down 'n barked, "PUT UP YOUR DUKES!" roiling those giant mitts in my face.

i jumped into a stance. He roared with laughter and scooped me on to his shoulder; his Mt. Rushmore face only inches from mine...as vivid now as it was then.


----------



## 2manyusernames

john garfield said:


> *MY FONDEST BOXING MEMORY*
> 
> Mine was meeting Jack Dempsey with my dad when I was about six or seven at a his long-gone Broadway restaurant in N.Y.
> 
> He came over the size of a building and bent down 'n barked, "PUT UP YOUR DUKES!" roiling those giant mitts in my face.
> 
> i jumped into a stance. He roared with laughter and scooped me on to his shoulder; his Mt. Rushmore face only inches from mine...as vivid now as it was then.


You have such a way with words. It's amazing how just three short sentences can paint such vivid pictures!


----------



## Vano-irons

Mine was bumping into James Degale and having him confirm he would fight groves.

Vano 1-0 Garfield

Seriously tho, I would have loved to have been in the states around that time. Boxing really was THE sport back then. Listening to Burt Sugar's stories always bring a smile to my face. And reading John's stuff does the same!


----------



## john garfield

Vano-irons said:


> Mine was bumping into James Degale and having him confirm he would fight groves.
> 
> Vano 1-0 Garfield
> 
> Seriously tho, I would have loved to have been in the states around that time. Boxing really was THE sport back then. Listening to Burt Sugar's stories always bring a smile to my face. And reading John's stuff does the same!


I'll keep bringin'em. Keep comin' back, V


----------



## Yiddle

jg you must be the coolest person here


----------



## john garfield

Yiddle said:


> jg you must be the coolest person here


tell my wife 'n daughter,Y


----------



## Bryn

Yiddle said:


> jg you must be the coolest person here


Seconded. This thread is golden.


----------



## john garfield

Bryn said:


> Seconded. This thread is golden.


If you're makin' the trip from South Wales, I'll haveta keep the gold standard high, Bryn


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

Read 20 pages so far, great stuff!


----------



## john garfield

arranmcl said:


> Read 20 pages so far, great stuff!


great ta haveya aboard, a

_Reading 20 pages_, ya must be SCOTLAND THE BRAVE.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

john garfield said:


> great ta haveya aboard, a
> 
> _Reading 20 pages_, ya must be SCOTLAND THE BRAVE.


:yep :yep


----------



## john garfield

arranmcl said:


> :yep :yep


surprised ya don't have Saddler in the your avatar wearing his tartan robe, a


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

john garfield said:


> surprised ya don't have Saddler in the your avatar wearing his tartan robe, a


I'm new to boxing, only been following since the end of 2010 :-( :conf

The only scottish boxers I really know are Benny Lynch, Ken Buchanan, Jim Watt, Ricky Burns etc. :conf


----------



## john garfield

arranmcl said:


> I'm new to boxing, only been following since the end of 2010 :-( :conf
> 
> The only scottish boxers I really know are Benny Lynch, Ken Buchanan, Jim Watt, Ricky Burns etc. :conf


Broke my heart to see Buchanan starch my friend Chu Chu Malave in the first round. It was Chu Chu's last fight.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

john garfield said:


> Broke my heart to see Buchanan starch my friend Chu Chu Malave in the first round. It was Chu Chu's last fight.


Boxrec has that fight down as a tko7 due to cuts :conf

I'll take your word for it though 

Many stories about Benny Lynch?


----------



## john garfield

arranmcl said:


> Boxrec has that fight down as a tko7 due to cuts :conf
> 
> I'll take your word for it though
> 
> Many stories about Benny Lynch?


If almost severing Chu Chu's head with a left hook counts as a cut, than it was a cut, a


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

john garfield said:


> If almost severing Chu Chu's head with a left hook counts as a cut, than it was a cut, a


Were you there live?


----------



## john garfield

arranmcl said:


> Were you there live?


Ringside, a. So sad since Chu Chu was a local fan favorite.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

john garfield said:


> Ringside, a. So sad since Chu Chu was a local fan favorite.


Got many stories about him John? :yep


----------



## john garfield

arranmcl said:


> Got many stories about him John? :yep


We're still good friends, and get together often 'n laugh our heads off. He just turned 60,but looks 40,'n has more energy than 20-year-old.

After hangin'-em-up, he worked as an actor off-broadway, on Broadway and guest-starred on TV 'n B pictures.


----------



## Del Boy

Wow john now that is a hell of a memory, as a kid was that such a big deal to you then?

I think mine must have been getting to meet my first pro fighter
Seeing my first pro card 
Bernard Dunne winning his world title 
My first day in the gym 

But i think my all time favorite moment was sparring an irish senior champion and holding my own in there it really made me feel as I had begun to develop as a fighter.


----------



## john garfield

Del Boy said:


> Wow john now that is a hell of a memory, as a kid was that such a big deal to you then?
> 
> I think mine must have been getting to meet my first pro fighter
> Seeing my first pro card
> Bernard Dunne winning his world title
> My first day in the gym
> 
> But i think my all time favorite moment was sparring an irish senior champion and holding my own in there it really made me feel as I had begun to develop as a fighter.


Your mention of Bernard Dunne brings back memories when he trained at Wild Card and I was doin' interviews 'n profiles. We lived near each other and after training, I'd drop him off at his apartment in Santa Monica.

There's one story in particular think you'll get a kick outta. I'll check my notes and get back


----------



## john garfield

*A SAD MOMENT*

In the mid '90s, I was at an induction dinner for the California Hall of Fame. I noticed two older black men - one with dark glasses -- sitting on the aisle, midway back, making idle conversation and laughing.

When the ceremony was over, and room was emptying, the two men were the last to leave. One, an aid, (or a very close friend) helped the man in sun glasses rise, (he was clearly blind) handing him two canes, and he slowly and painfully was led out.

I asked who he was.

"Clarence Henry"

It seemed inconceivable this frail sightless man was the lithe picture-punching heavy I'd seen starch Bob Baker in The Garden in the early '50s.


----------



## Teeto

john garfield said:


> *A SAD MOMENT*
> 
> In the mid '90s, I was at an induction dinner for the California Hall of Fame. I noticed two older black men - one with dark glasses -- sitting on the aisle, midway back, making idle conversation and laughing.
> 
> When the ceremony was over, and room was emptying, the two men were the last to leave. One, an aid, (or a very close friend) helped the man in sun glasses rise, (he was clearly blind) handing him two canes, and he slowly and painfully was led out.
> 
> I asked who he was.
> 
> "Clarence Henry"
> 
> It seemed inconceivable this frail sightless man was the lithe picture-punching heavy I'd seen starch Bob Baker in The Garden in the early '50s.


very sad, it must have been emotional for you as a fight fan and my heart goes out to his memory, RIP big man


----------



## 2manyusernames

john garfield said:


> *MY FONDEST BOXING MEMORY*
> 
> Mine was meeting Jack Dempsey with my dad when I was about six or seven at a his long-gone Broadway restaurant in N.Y.
> 
> He came over the size of a building and bent down 'n barked, "PUT UP YOUR DUKES!" roiling those giant mitts in my face.
> 
> i jumped into a stance. He roared with laughter and scooped me on to his shoulder; his Mt. Rushmore face only inches from mine...as vivid now as it was then.


I've read this about 10 times now


----------



## NoMas

2manyusernames said:


> You have such a way with words. It's amazing how just three short sentences can paint such vivid pictures!


co-sign that


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> co-sign that


How come when I write my landlord to fix something, he never understands it?


----------



## 2manyusernames

john garfield said:


> How come when I write my landlord to fix something, he never understands it?


Sounds like we have the same landlord JG.


----------



## Matty lll

I love readin stuff like this, thank you JG :thumbsup


----------



## john garfield

Bernard Dunne nugget for Del Boy:

Driving back from Wild Card one day, Bernard Dunne confessed his sister felt she might become a nun.

As is the custom in Ireland, when a man courts a girl, he has to meet her whole family for their approval.

Bernard’s a fightin’ family – a tough crusty lot. His dad, cousins and uncles have all been boxers and champions, amateur and pro -- with the women, very vocal supporters. 

After his sister’s intended met the family, he’d never come back


----------



## TheDemolitionDan

Boy howdy, I have some catching up to do. Some good reads here, JG. :thumbsup


----------



## john garfield

TheDemolitionDan said:


> Boy howdy, I have some catching up to do. *Some good reads here*, JG. :thumbsup


Music to my ears, TDD. Incentive ta keep putin' ya ringside


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> *MY FONDEST BOXING MEMORY*
> 
> Mine was meeting Jack Dempsey with my dad when I was about six or seven at a his long-gone Broadway restaurant in N.Y.
> 
> He came over the size of a building and bent down 'n barked, "PUT UP YOUR DUKES!" roiling those giant mitts in my face.
> 
> i jumped into a stance. He roared with laughter and scooped me on to his shoulder; his Mt. Rushmore face only inches from mine...as vivid now as it was then.


It seems that Dempsey is larger than life to everyone who meets him... wish I could take the train to Times Square and stop by, but his old haunt's been bulldozed to make way for Applebee's or The Bubba Gump Shrimp Company...


----------



## Michael

john garfield said:


> Bernard Dunne nugget for Del Boy:
> 
> Driving back from Wild Card one day, Bernard Dunne confessed his sister felt she might become a nun.
> 
> As is the custom in Ireland, when a man courts a girl, he has to meet her whole family for their approval.
> 
> Bernard's a fightin' family - a tough crusty lot. His dad, cousins and uncles have all been boxers and champions, amateur and pro -- with the women, very vocal supporters.
> 
> After his sister's intended met the family, he'd never come back


:lol:


----------



## Zico

JG, I'm not sure how you feel about giving your views on the darker side of Boxing like corruption, match-fixing, PED use etc but I would be fascinated by any tales or insight on these controversial subjects especially coming from a man of your stature.


----------



## john garfield

Zico said:


> JG, I'm not sure how you feel about giving your views on the darker side of Boxing like corruption, match-fixing, PED use etc but I would be fascinated by any tales or insight on these controversial subjects especially coming from a man of your stature.


How could anyone who cares about boxing not wanna stamp-out anything that hurts the sport; 'n i try to include those things -- if I have a smoking gun to indict -- but, basically, I try to put readers ringside, Z. Best way I can answer. Hope it's not disappointing.


----------



## john garfield

*GEM FOR SPANISH-SPEAKERS*

If there are enough of you, I'll put it up. Lemme hear from you


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> *GEM FOR SPANISH-SPEAKERS*
> 
> If there are enough of you, I'll put it up. Lemme hear from you


Yo habla español. Well... poquito :hey


----------



## doug.ie

i'd love you to do an article or more for the front page JG....but i wont push it on you......you're our hidden gem here fella.


----------



## john garfield

doug.ie said:


> i'd love you to do an article or more for the front page JG....but i wont push it on you......you're our hidden gem here fella.


Flattered, doug. You're a tenacious Sligoman, but will stick with my sticky.


----------



## Casual Benson's Unknown

donde es burro para clima mis pies Señor garfield


----------



## john garfield

Unknown Poster said:


> *donde es burro para clima mis pies Señor garfield*


Nobody likes a showoff, UP

Haveta split now for a couple hours. If there are enough others like yourself, I'll put it up


----------



## PoliSari

john garfield said:


> *GEM FOR SPANISH-SPEAKERS*
> 
> If there are enough of you, I'll put it up. Lemme hear from you


+1 :thumbsup


----------



## Zico

john garfield said:


> How could anyone who cares about boxing not wanna stamp-out anything that hurts the sport; 'n i try to include those things -- if I have a smoking gun to indict -- but, basically, I try to put readers ringside, Z. Best way I can answer. Hope it's not disappointing.


Yeah I was thinking that JG, maybe another discussion for another thread that one, keep em coming boss! :bowdown


----------



## AlFrancis

Went in that Applebees the other week, was wondering where Dempsey's has been. I didn't realise that there is another place called Demseys without the p with a boxing theme, it was only round the corner from where I was staying as well. I did get into Jimmy's Corner though, Jimmy Glenn's bar just off Times Square. It's full of boxing memorabilia and well worth a visit.


----------



## AlFrancis

john garfield said:


> *MY FONDEST BOXING MEMORY*
> 
> Mine was meeting Jack Dempsey with my dad when I was about six or seven at a his long-gone Broadway restaurant in N.Y.
> 
> He came over the size of a building and bent down 'n barked, "PUT UP YOUR DUKES!" roiling those giant mitts in my face.
> 
> i jumped into a stance. He roared with laughter and scooped me on to his shoulder; his Mt. Rushmore face only inches from mine...as vivid now as it was then.


I'm lucky enough to have grown up in the world of boxing JG and have loads of memories, My dad was a fighter and he used to host the Liverpool ex boxers meetings in his pub after he retired. I was only a kid but I was hooked on boxing so I'd always go downstairs and meet the old fighters, people like Peter Kane and Ernie Roderick, Gus Foran who was related to Ginger Foran who campaigned in NY in the 30's and 40's and Dom Volante who held a win over the great Nel Tarleton, Harry Scott, who split two great fights with Rubin Carter would be there and a host of others, I've met them all over my life. 
Anyway I thought I'd share this one with you on the subject of Dempsey, It's not my memory but one of my dad's. When he was a kid, a young amateur boxer he had a mate. His mate's dad was always talking about boxing and in particular Dempsey, he loved Dempsey, Dempsey this, Dempsey that and Dempsey the other. My dad used to talk to him for hours about the old fighters. Years later my dad was at a boxing dinner with Jack Kid Berg in London where Dempsey was the guest of honour, this would of been the mid 60's. Dempsey and Berg were mates from years back, Berg's fighting days in NY. Berg said to my dad "have you ever met Dempsey Al", me dad said no so Berg said come on, I'll introduce you. He took him over and said Jack, I want you to meet Alan Rudkin, he's the British bantamweight champ and he's going places. They had a chat and me dad said Dempsey shook his hand, his hand was like a shovel and said lovely to meet you Champ. Me dad was in awe being called Champ by Jack Dempsey. All he could think about was if only his mate's dad could see this...


----------



## Boogle McDougal

AlFrancis said:


> Went in that Applebees the other week, was wondering where Dempsey's has been. I didn't realise that there is another place called Demseys without the p with a boxing theme, it was only round the corner from where I was staying as well. I did get into Jimmy's Corner though, Jimmy Glenn's bar just off Times Square. It's full of boxing memorabilia and well worth a visit.


Hey, Al. Not sure exactly if they put an Applebee's on top of where Jack Dempsey's restaurant was. I could do some research and find out. Something like that though, for sure. Times Square is all chain restaurants now. I've been to Jimmy's Corner too, cool place.


----------



## john garfield

AlFrancis said:


> I'm lucky enough to have grown up in the world of boxing JG and have loads of memories, My dad was a fighter and he used to host the Liverpool ex boxers meetings in his pub after he retired. I was only a kid but I was hooked on boxing so I'd always go downstairs and meet the old fighters, people like Peter Kane and Ernie Roderick, Gus Foran who was related to Ginger Foran who campaigned in NY in the 30's and 40's and Dom Volante who held a win over the great Nel Tarleton, Harry Scott, who split two great fights with Rubin Carter would be there and a host of others, I've met them all over my life.
> Anyway I thought I'd share this one with you on the subject of Dempsey, It's not my memory but one of my dad's. When he was a kid, a young amateur boxer he had a mate. His mate's dad was always talking about boxing and in particular Dempsey, he loved Dempsey, Dempsey this, Dempsey that and Dempsey the other. My dad used to talk to him for hours about the old fighters. Years later my dad was at a boxing dinner with Jack Kid Berg in London where Dempsey was the guest of honour, this would of been the mid 60's. Dempsey and Berg were mates from years back, Berg's fighting days in NY. Berg said to my dad "have you ever met Dempsey Al", me dad said no so Berg said come on, I'll introduce you. He took him over and said Jack, I want you to meet *Alan Rudkin,* he's the British bantamweight champ and he's going places. They had a chat and me dad said Dempsey shook his hand, his hand was like a shovel and said lovely to meet you Champ. Me dad was in awe being called Champ by Jack Dempsey. All he could think about was if only his mate's dad could see this...


If your dad was the Alan Rudkin I'm thinkin' of, AlF, he wasn't just an ex-fighter, he was a helluva well-schooled combo-punching fighter, with _bottle_ ta spare. I'da been proud ta shake his hand.


----------



## AlFrancis

Boggle said:


> Hey, Al. Not sure exactly if they put an Applebee's on top of where Jack Dempsey's restaurant was. I could do some research and find out. Something like that though, for sure. Times Square is all chain restaurants now. I've been to Jimmy's Corner too, cool place.


The Applebees I went in was on west 42nd street but Dempseys was on Broadway near 49th street, just found this http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/2010/05/24/dempseys/
Looks like there is an applebees on 50th street as well.


----------



## AlFrancis

john garfield said:


> If your dad was the Alan Rudkin I'm thinkin' of, AlF, he wasn't just an ex-fighter, he was a helluva well-schooled combo-punching fighter, with _bottle_ ta spare. I'da been proud ta shake his hand.


Thanks JG.


----------



## AlFrancis

john garfield said:


> If your dad was the Alan Rudkin I'm thinkin' of, AlF, he wasn't just an ex-fighter, he was a helluva well-schooled combo-punching fighter, with _bottle_ ta spare. I'da been proud ta shake his hand.


That's me dad in the avatar against Fighting Harada in Japan for the World bantamweight title 1965.


----------



## Boogle McDougal

AlFrancis said:


> The Applebees I went in was on west 42nd street but Dempseys was on Broadway near 49th street, just found this http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/2010/05/24/dempseys/
> Looks like there is an applebees on 50th street as well.


Cool find on that blog, I came across this other sweet stationary.


----------



## AlFrancis

Boggle said:


> Cool find on that blog, I came across this other sweet stationary.


I would of liked to of gone up there , just see where it was. I was only in NY for the week with the wife and kids so I couldn't get round and about as much as I would of liked, I would of visited some of the gyms. I had a bit of bad luck, I was staying at the Manhattan Affinia right over the road from Madison Square garden so I went over there, I'd heard there was a bit of a museum in it but they had building worlks going on. The security guard said I'd be best coming back in 2014.


----------



## AlFrancis

As it happens, I'll be 50 in 2014, maybe I'll get back over with some of the lads for a fightnight.


----------



## john garfield

AlFrancis said:


> That's me dad in the avatar against Fighting Harada in Japan for the World bantamweight title 1965.


ya must have a wealth of memories looking through all your dad's pix. He wasn't fightin' tomato cans; he was fightin' the world's best.

He ever talk about his fondest memory or toughest fight?


----------



## AlFrancis

john garfield said:


> ya must have a wealth of memories looking through all your dad's pix. He wasn't fightin' tomato cans; he was fightin' the world's best.
> 
> He ever talk about his fondest memory or toughest fight?


He had a great life JG, he was a boxing aficionado like us and he was never happier than when he was with other fighters and he got to meet them all, Sugar Ray, Willy Pep, Jack Kid Berg, Ted Kid Lewis, Dempsey, Marciano, from top fighters to preliminary fighters, he loved them all. As for his fighting days his favourite fight was when he first won the British title off John Caldwell, who was the former world champ and when he regained his titles from Walter McGowan, the world flyweight champ. He'd lost his titles to McGowan in 66 on a very controversial decision and he was quite bitter about it, he felt he'd been robbed so getting them back in 68 was a great feeling. Of his toughest fights he said Harada. Harada was very strong and very fast so it was a very physical fight and he had to keep his wits about him right through. He thought he won the world title when he fought Lionel Rose but it was very close and he accepted that. Olivares was the best, that night in 69 he was unstoppable right at his peak. Dad said he'd never been hit like that in fact he said he'd never really been stunned in a fight until that night and it worked against him. Instead of trying to hold on and spoil he decided to take the fight to Ruben and he came out second best in a shoot out to one of the biggest punchers the bantam division ever saw. I think Olivares was 53-0-1 the night dad fought him with 52 ko's. He was unlucky to come round at that time, 3 great bantam champs all in their primes, you know they had an average age of 21 years between them and were all experienced pros. He never got the chance to fight a 35 year old champ who was on the downside but that's life. The hardest fight he ever had was his 13th in 1963 when he fought a real tough Frenchman called Pierre Vetroff. He won on pòints over 10 but it was brutal. Vetroff was a real pro and the head was going in all through the fight. Dad went the hospital after that and the doctor said, "I don't want to alarm you son but it looks like the side of your head has caved in, I only usually see damage like that in car crash victims". He was only a young lad at the time but he took it all philosophically really, he said that instead of it putting him off he thought to himself "this is the fight game" and it made him more determined, it was weeks before the swelling went down and his eye was bloodshot for months. He was a real 15 round fighter me dad in fact he said he'd liked to of fought in the days of 20 rounders fighting every couple of weeks, he always finished strong over the distance.


----------



## AlFrancis

Here's a few of photos JG, a couple from just before dad passed when he was honoured by the WBC and a couple more from back in the day
Me and me dad. That is an ex fighters face.








WBC Night of Champions 2010








Lonsdale belts.








Alan Rudkin vs Felipe Gonzalez








Alan Rudkin, Rocky Marciano, Ted Monk


----------



## john garfield

AlFrancis said:


> Here's a few of photos JG, a couple from just before dad passed when he was honoured by the WBC and a couple more from back in the day
> Me and me dad. That is an ex fighters face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WBC Night of Champions 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonsdale belts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan Rudkin vs Felipe Gonzalez
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alan Rudkin, Rocky Marciano, Ted Monk


The in-depth background info and great pix are a treat, AF


----------



## Yiddle

nice posts Al and some really greats photos :clap:


----------



## AlFrancis

Yiddle said:


> nice posts Al and some really greats photos :clap:


Nice one, like your avatar, a great man!


----------



## john garfield

*SUPER FLY IN SPANISH HARLEM*

In the '70s, Tommy Gallagher and I used to take our amateur boxing team to compete in smokers all over New York.

We had one motor-mouth black light heavy with a blown-out fro who dressed like Super Fly comin' into the gym -- girls on each arm--_playah!_ written all over'm. But he not only could talk smack, he could back it up.

We took him to box on a card in Spanish Harlem. Even though we told him to cool it, he strutted in the corner before the fight, talkin' trash to the crowd, and it made 'em crazy. They waved their fists and chanted.

He turned to us, perplexed

"They think I'm Jewish. They keep callin' me Marty Cohen."


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> *SUPER FLY IN SPANISH HARLEM*
> 
> In the '70s, Tommy Gallagher and I used to take our amateur boxing team to compete in smokers all over New York.
> 
> We had one motor-mouth black light heavy with a blown-out fro who dressed like Super Fly comin' into the gym -- girls on each arm--_playah!_ written all over'm. But he not only could talk smack, he could back it up.
> 
> We took him to box on a card in Spanish Harlem. Even though we told him to cool it, he strutted in the corner before the fight, talkin' trash to the crowd, and it made 'em crazy. They waved their fists and chanted.
> 
> He turned to us, perplexed
> 
> "They think I'm Jewish. They keep callin' me Marty Cohen."


Took me a second to get it :lol:


----------



## Jim Bowen

john garfield said:


> *SUPER FLY IN SPANISH HARLEM*
> 
> In the '70s, Tommy Gallagher and I used to take our amateur boxing team to compete in smokers all over New York.
> 
> We had one motor-mouth black light heavy with a blown-out fro who dressed like Super Fly comin' into the gym -- girls on each arm--_playah!_ written all over'm. But he not only could talk smack, he could back it up.
> 
> We took him to box on a card in Spanish Harlem. Even though we told him to cool it, he strutted in the corner before the fight, talkin' trash to the crowd, and it made 'em crazy. They waved their fists and chanted.
> 
> He turned to us, perplexed
> 
> "They think I'm Jewish. They keep callin' me Marty Cohen."


That's a classic again JG :lol:


----------



## NoMas

lol reminds me of that big l song

'cause im no maricón for poems and slidin’ hotties home'

funny story


----------



## GazOC

Who have we got for Lamotta-Graziano? Great chin beats great punch is the conventional pick but maybe Rocky could get the points win.


----------



## john garfield

GazOC said:


> Who have we got for Lamotta-Graziano? Great chin beats great punch is the conventional pick but maybe Rocky could get the points win.


Remember this like it was yesterday, G. Everybody in New York licked their chops over a LaMotta-Graziano fight. The moment it was announced, It was the only topic of conversation everyplace. It was front page on every newspaper -- billboards and bus signs wherever you looked.

...'n then,without explanation (or one that I can remember) it was cancelled.

Life-long gym rats, like myself, had to settle for watching them rag on each other for hours in the gallery at Stillman's Gym.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

Any stories about Julian Jackson, JG? I love watching a bit of Jackson.


----------



## john garfield

Chacal said:


> Any stories about Julian Jackson, JG? I love watching a bit of Jackson.


Like you, C, was blown away by Jackson's one-punch knockouts; but can't say much more then what I saw on TV. I only talk about fighters I've seen train and fight live. The Hawk's one I'd love to've seen fight live.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

john garfield said:


> Like you, C, was blown away by Jackson's one-punch knockouts; but can't say much more then what I saw on TV. I only talk about fighters I've seen train and fight live. The Hawk's one I'd love to've seen fight live.


:thumbsup one of my favorites.


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> Remember this like it was yesterday, G. Everybody in New York licked their chops over a LaMotta-Graziano fight. The moment it was announced, It was the only topic of conversation everyplace. It was front page on every newspaper -- billboards and bus signs wherever you looked.
> 
> ...'n then,without explanation (or one that I can remember) it was cancelled.
> 
> Life-long gym rats, like myself, had to settle for watching them rag on each other for hours in the gallery at Stillman's Gym.


Here's a great video interview that sheds some light on why the Graziano/LaMotta fight never happened. What a buncha characters :lol:


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> Here's a great video interview that sheds some light on why the Graziano/LaMotta fight never happened. What a buncha characters :lol:


Had seen that Boggle,but forgot all about it. Sad seein' devilish Rocky. Hard to imagine he's gone


----------



## NoMas

Chacal said:


> Any stories about Julian Jackson, JG? I love watching a bit of Jackson.





john garfield said:


> Like you, C, was blown away by Jackson's one-punch knockouts; but can't say much more then what I saw on TV. I only talk about fighters I've seen train and fight live. The Hawk's one I'd love to've seen fight live.





Chacal said:


> :thumbsup one of my favorites.


gutted heroll graham found out about that one punch knock out of his atsch


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

NoMas said:


> gutted heroll graham found out about that one punch knock out of his atsch


I love watching Graham. Typical ingle fighter, good but not good enough. Shame he never won a world title.


----------



## McGrain

john garfield said:


> Remember this like it was yesterday, G. Everybody in New York licked their chops over a LaMotta-Graziano fight. The moment it was announced, It was the only topic of conversation everyplace. It was front page on every newspaper -- billboards and bus signs wherever you looked.
> 
> ...'n then,without explanation (or one that I can remember) it was cancelled.
> 
> Life-long gym rats, like myself, had to settle for watching them rag on each other for hours in the gallery at Stillman's Gym.


This has to be worth a closer look.


----------



## NoMas

Chacal said:


> I love watching Graham. Typical ingle fighter, good but not good enough. Shame he never won a world title.


yeah he started that ingle style fighting... great fighter, im reading his book atm, got to a funny part where hes talking about johnny nelson moving into his house and bringing loads of birds home all the time lol


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

NoMas said:


> yeah he started that ingle style fighting... great fighter, im reading his book atm, got to a funny part where hes talking about johnny nelson moving into his house and bringing loads of birds home all the time lol


Haha, what's his book called? I'll have to check it out some time?


----------



## NoMas

Chacal said:


> Haha, what's his book called? I'll have to check it out some time?


here you go mate... wicked so far


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

NoMas said:


> here you go mate... wicked so far


I'll be sure to check it out!

Also, nice collection of shoes you got there :yep


----------



## NoMas

Chacal said:


> I'll be sure to check it out!
> 
> Also, nice collection of shoes you got there :yep


thanks, im a fiend for sneaks


----------



## john garfield

*FIGHT NIGHT AT THE OLYMPIC AUDITORIUM*

*"Reports of my death are grossly exaggerated," Mark Twain said... The same's true of boxing, if you'd seen the army straining to get into the Grand Olympic Auditorium in L.A. for Oscar de La Hoya's "Boxeo de Oro."

It was only 5 P.M. on a workday and ticket holders were in a ragged line stretching well around Grand Ave. -- looked like the Oklahoma land rush just before the gun went off.

These were largely roll-up-your-sleeves guys, Latino. They'd earned their faces and were in good spirits -- with maybe a head start on a drink or two. They knew the niceties of the game, but they came to see guys fight, to see someone bite down and show "Corazon:" heart...Somebody they could identify with... root for.

When the floodgates opened, the mob poured in, sweeping aside the ticket takers.

It was impossible being jostled along in those narrow, sweating corridors, not to have the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, imagining Enrique Bolonas, Jose Becerra, Ruben Olivares, Mando Ramos and Bobby Chacon battling in this very ring, defining Aztec warrior and the legacy of the Olympic.

Management gave it a new paint job, new seats, but this is the gladiator pit that dates back to the '30s...where Al Jolson and "Bugsy" Seigel arrived by limo to sit just a few feet from me to watch "The Brown Bomber" and Henry Armstrong. The reverence was palpable.

Not a bad sight line in the place.

The arena was filling quickly, electricity charging the air and bringing the legends to life.

On the main floor behind the 15-20 rows of ringside seats was a portable bar. "All American beer! No Mexican beer!" shouted the bartender. A curious marketing ploy, considering. It didn't seem to hurt sales; a quick look around confirmed.

It was one large extended family: A reunion of stand-up guys. The badges of the trade marking every beaming face -- balcony to ringside. Much backslapping, ribbing, dirty laughter, intros, and lots and lots of beer all 'round.

They yelled, stamped their feet and pounded the air when the action heated in the ring. A Godzilla-sized promotional bottle of Miller Lite, with a poor soul inside, was being led blind through their midst by a guy with a rope...and threatened to tip over at every step, much to the delight of all.

The only things missing from film-noir were the smell of cigars and cloud of smoke.

The early KO's by the super middleweight Andrade brothers had everybody toasting and the beer flowing.

Labrado Andrade, in a ring overrun by press, was bursting with pride accepting the first Miller Lite Golden State Award for the outstanding performance of the evening, for his emphatic KO of Errol Banner.

Watching Andrade clutch that sculpture, being turned in every direction for pictures and interviews, and standing on the bottom strand of the ropes trying to stretch to the balcony to share his excitement with friends from La Habre; it was easy to see, he was going to have no trouble dedicating himself to winning a world title.

Security was having no luck trying to clear revelers out of the aisles. No sooner did a group reluctantly disperse than they re-assembled larger and louder.

Raven-haired Pamela Anderson wannabes with painted-on jeans and as much cleavage as they could engineer trolled ringside endlessly in hopes of catching the eye of some mover-n'-shaker for a taste of the "good life". The hotties acted offended at the whistles and street remarks, but never failed to retrace their routes.

Some ringsiders slipped their tickets to buddies who scampered down from the cheap seats to claim them over the mezzanine wall when a guard wasn't looking. And then, like cats with cream on their whiskers, nonchalantly flashed the ducats at Security and disappeared among the heavy hitters, like children let loose in a candy factory.

The fans got an extra glimpse of skin in the prelims prior to the televised fights. The round-card girls jiggled and waved and threw kisses in Band-Aids and floss that lost the struggle to contain the Jell-O inside. The building rocked in appreciation of the generous scoops of dessert served up on stiletto heels.

The PG-rated TV bouts had the same girls in gym shorts and halters, looking more like an aerobics class. Their more-modest garb drew a collective groan. Spice is what they wanted, not health food.

Fernando Vargas, not the least surly or ill-at-ease at a Golden Boy promotion, lounged at the ring apron in tinted shades and an open silken shirt, basking in adulation all around him.

A hulking figure--standing just off to the side of Vargas-- in an oversize football jersey--arms locked across his chest, expressionless, with menacing dark glasses, clocking anything to do with Vargas--was the lone reminder of his recent headlines.

Watching two of Vargas's hommies shuttle the adoring between rounds was damn impressive; it had all the precision of a military operation. One mother gingerly handed Vargas her baby. He cradled it and smiled, while she snapped a picture that might inspire a future ring career.

It looked like the line to sit on Santa's lap at X-Mas in a department store.

Two strikingly beautiful women swathed in Calvin Klein and Armani stole away from their escorts and flirtatiously snuggled-in for a picture with Vargas, who grinned and encircled them with his arms. It was good to be the king.

A smarmy guy in a Hawaiian shirt over a paunch and shoe black on his hair was pressing the flesh of anybody-and-all a few rows from Vargas, showing his barely-teenage stable of fighters in the $250 seats what it would be like when they hit it big. With their Marine haircuts and wide eyes, the young fighters looked like goslings plunked down from another planet.

A Nell Carter look-alike, in a scarlet lamp-shade-of-a-dress and lots of 'tude invaded a row of Celebes and got each one up to pose with her for a picture, handing the camera to whoever was closest. And if the flash didn't go off, she insisted on another. Then she passed around a boxing glove to be signed, instructing each what to write. She just waved off any objection. With her in my corner, I could get a title shot.

When Julio Gonzalez and "Panchito" Bojado were spotted, they both were unfailingly gracious--and genuinely touched--under the onslaught for handshakes, pictures with them, a word or two, or a signed program or a blouse front. Some nearly fell out of the stands just for a touch as they went by.

Bojado circulated all around the arena, always in the center of bodies clawing at him; his posse trying to screen him, as best they could. Eventually, he stood right below me; he looked no more than 16. Like bees to honey, everybody descended on Bojado, climbing over each other and the wall to get to him.
When I asked the guys in front to sit down; I couldn't see; Bojado poked his head through the jam: "I'm terribly sorry for the interruption. I apologize," and he drew the mob away, like the Pied Piper. Pretty classy. He made me a fan.

Just to the left of my aisle seat, a guy looking like he was doing a bad-drunk imitation swayed precariously at the top of the stairs, with beer sloshing out of his cup, about 10 feet above the concrete floor. In what seemed like slow motion, he lost his hold on the railing. I just managed to grab his wrist before he fell, and some others pitched in immediately to pull him back. The drunk's friends were all over me with 'Thanks' in rapid-fire Spanish; their beers punctuated every word. I was sure I was in for a shower.

Bobby Chacon wove his way through the crowd, shaking hands, just a hint unsteady on his pins--oddly small, considering what a giant he was in the ring--with that same signature grin plastered on every sports page when he roared off the streets of Compton to shake the Olympic to the rafters and insure his place in the hearts of these fans. He should have been saluted at center ring; he left so much of himself there.

A fellow in his 20s, next to me, tapped my arm and pointed to Chacon, with the respect reserved for an idol, and went on in Spanish about him. His tone said it all. The guy behind me leaned in, expressing the same sentiments, and offered me some tortilla chips.

CONTINUED*


----------



## john garfield

*OLYMPIC PART II*

*The heir apparent to Chacon may be "Mighty" Mike Anchondo; nearly the same size as Chacon, with the same schoolboy good looks, masking a killer instinct and a flare for the dramatic.

Anchondo fought the semi wind-up 10 rounder against Nicaraguan Roque "Rocky" Cassiani (23-4-1), who looked like a mini Marvin Hagler when he doffed his brocaded robe. The similarity ended with the muscles.

Anchondo has 21 fights and 17 KO's, is not tall for a 130-pounder, but he has the mark of a veteran: totally relaxed in the ring; his combinations so fluid they belie the speed and power; and almost on cue, he responds to the urging of the crowd with the kind of vicious salvos that seem over-the-top in a movie.

After some confusion at the end of the 9th round, where it looked like referee James Jen-Kin stepped in to stop it-- with Anchondo raining unanswered blows on a helpless Cassiani sagging against the ropes--the ref--inexplicably-- allowed it to continue.

It was bedlam before the 10th round. The crowd smelled blood and tore the roof off. They were on their feet, chanting "Mighty Mike! Mighty Mike!" ...Anchondo didn't disappoint. At the bell, he attacked and kept firing until the ref called a halt. Then, in unbounded joy, he leaped into the arms of his handlers, who held him aloft while he punched the sky repeatedly, and the building shook.

Cassiani was made to order for Anchondo, with his relentless, one-dimensional, search-n'-destroy mind-set. Cassiani threw with bad intentions, and pressed and pressed, and took it, and took it, and took it...until the ref decided he should take no more. He went out on his shield.

After the Anchondo fight, while the ref was standing against the ropes congratulating Anchondo, a woman producer for HBO shoved the ref aside, yelled something in his face, and yanked Anchondo --literally-- across the ring to the color commentator, barking orders to clear the way, and glaring. Roberto Duran couldn't have been more menacing.

Anchondo came back out after changing. He was greeted with the adulation one sees only at the Plaza De Toros after a brave kill.

"Mighty Mike! Mighty Mike!" It was deafening. Anchondo signed and flung gloves with all the strength he could muster to the top of the balcony. The place was in a frenzy. Had some fans not been caught by the ankles at the last moment, they'd have sailed off the balcony diving for a glove.

Some months ago, I was impressed with Anchondo's sparring at the Wild Card Gym, and wanted to interview him, so I looked for an interpreter, without any luck. I approached Anchondo, with some hesitation: "DO...YOU...SPEAK...ANY...ENGLISH? I...DON'T...SPEAK...ANY SPANISH." "I don't either, he laughed. It happens to me all the time."

He's a very engaging, open-faced, unlikely looking executioner, who connects with the barrio, like Art Aragon used to. Plus, the personality to make him a media favorite. It's about time they start beating the drum for him. He could headline the card and pack the place.

The main-go was won convincingly by Jose Navarro over Jorge Luis "Speedy" Gonzalez, for the IBA Continental Americas Junior Bantamweight title. Navarro is not what you think of when the image of a Mexican fighter comes to mind: Chango Carmona or "Bazooka" Limon.

Navarro is a well-balanced, unflappable ring technician, who fires from the port side like a surgeon. He keeps sticking broomsticks in your face, and threads the needle up and down-- stinging, stinging, stinging, keeping pressure at the end of his long arms. He's an educated boxer, and though he doesn't fire the blood, it's going to take a special fighter to take him out of his game.

Gonzalez was outclassed, but he kept throwing bricks and finally his body, in wave after kamikaze wave against the gattling gun that was strafing him. Freddie Roach, Gonzalez's trainer, must have told him before the last round: 'Son, you need a knockout!'

At the bell, Gonzalez bolted out at full gallop, flailing and swinging, trying to will himself past those whirring blades to land the one shot that would turn the tide. Gonzalez fell short, but he gave it all of his heart and won the heart of the crowd doing it.

Most walkout bouts are just that. People can't get to their cars fast enough, but quite a few stayed and were treated to a very spirited six-round junior featherweight go that Kahren Hartyunyan won by a split decision over Marinho Gonzalez.

It's not a given that a taller man will out jab a shorter one. Hartyunyan proved that. He looked like he was going to need a ladder to reach Gonzalez, but he always got there first...and often. Though Hartyunyan was the only non-Latino on the card, what few that remained didn't begrudge him his props.

Hartyunyan has been a hard luck fighter, and far better than his record indicates (9-1-3). When he got the nod, most of the Armenian community of Glendale jumped into the ring and danced and embraced him. When he came down the ring steps with a grin as big as he was, the Wild Card regulars showed him how they treated their own.

Spilling out into the downtown night with fathers and sons still animatedly buzzing about the fights in Spanish, my step quickened with the pride of inclusion in this fraternity that spans generations and language. It was no different than the old Garden or St. Nick's; and though boxing is relegated to the back page of the sports section, this invalid still has a lotta life in it. It's all about "Corazon."
*


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> Had seen that Boggle,but forgot all about it. Sad seein' devilish Rocky. Hard to imagine he's gone


:sad2

Gone... but not forgotten!


----------



## Michael

Good read that about the Olympic Auditorium John, makes you realize what makes people fans of the sport in the first place.


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> Good read that about the Olympic Auditorium John, makes you realize what makes people fans of the sport in the first place.


Gladya enjoyed,S. Spread the word


----------



## Leeroy

Good work John. I liked it.


----------



## john garfield

Leeroy said:


> Good work John. I liked it.


we's here ta please,L. Keep comin' back


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## ScouseLeader

That was a great read, cheers JG.


----------



## john garfield

ScouseLeader said:


> That was a great read, cheers JG.


Liverpool only gets the best, S


----------



## ScouseLeader

john garfield said:


> Liverpool only gets the best, S


:yep


----------



## Hook!

Sportofkings said:


> Good read that about the Olympic Auditorium John, makes you realize what makes people fans of the sport in the first place.


couldn't agree more, hardcore fans >


----------



## john garfield

Hook! said:


> couldn't agree more, hardcore fans >


something in particular make you a hardcore fan, H?


----------



## Hook!

john garfield said:


> something in particular make you a hardcore fan, H?


i guess there are a few different grades of hardcore if you get me?


----------



## john garfield

*"LITTLE POISON" Q&A*

Jesus "Little Poison" Pimentel still looks within a couple of workouts of making the bantam limit. He moves nimbly, alert, generating energy. His eyes are kind -- not what you'd imagine from a killer who knocked out 69 men.

He was baby-faced as a fighter, and it's stood him in good stead these many years later; with his thick black hair, he looks easily 20 years younger than 72.

Pimentel ushered me to sit and ask him anything.

Q: You don't appear to be the least bit damaged after 80 fights, except for a hint of a fighter's nose.

JP	It's logical with that many fights, he smiled

Q: When you decided to pull the plug, what made you say, "I've had enough."

JP:	I didn't want to retire till I got a chance at the title...and, I got it, even though it was my last fight, but I got the opportunity and I fought a great champion, which was Ruben Olivares. Unfortunately, my time had past; I lost in a 12-round TKO.

Q: When you say your time had passed, what was it about your skills that wasn't right?

JP:	My legs, in the first place. My reflexes, they weren't the same no more...because punches that Ruben was throwing me, in my early days, I could easily avoid them. But, that's when I knew. I started feeling the punches...all the way to my neck, and I knew it was time for me to call it quits, which I did.

Q: How old were you when you retired?

JP:	I was only two months away from being 32. I retired December 14 of '71.

Q: What was the true story behind your walking out on the Edre Jofre fight?

JP:	That is wrong! The real story was the fight was cancelled not by us but the promoter, George Parnassus. And the reason was: Even though Edre Jofre was a world champion and I was the number one contender, Edre Jofre never fought in North America, and I, as the number one, had never fought in San Antonio. Neither did Edre Jofre, so there was not that kind of interest for a title fight, knowing it was for the bantamweight championship. So, that's why the promoter cancelled the fight. But, then he accused me of being afraid of Edre Jofre, and he had advanced me $10,000, which was wrong. I got suspended by Luis Spota, which at that time was the President of the World Boxing Council. Now, I wish that in that time Don King and the recent President of the World Boxing Council, Jose Suliman, was around. I would have been champion of the world. George Parnassus and Luis Spota, they used to eat out of the same plate. Parnassus told him a false story, and he suspended me for a full year.

Q: How much did the suspension hurt your career?

JP:	I still kept myself busy on the coast and Mexico. So, even though I was not making any big money or nothing, but I was active. After the suspension was lifted, I started my boxing career again.

Q: How do you feel about the dirty dealing that goes on in boxing today?

JP:	I will criticize nothing. Boxing is still boxing. The fighters of today, they are so fortunate; they can make all kinds of money.

Q: Do you think the advancements in training methods have improved fighters?

JP:	My opinion is: We didn't need all that stuff they do today. We fought like we knew best. The fighters of the past are the most dedicated fighters, especially, fighters from Mexico. We ate tortillas and beans; that was our main dish, but today a lot of vitamins, a lot of weight lifting. I don't believe in that myself.

Q: Mexican fighters have been known for their liver punches. Is it a difficult punch to learn?

JP:	A good body puncher, a liver puncher, to me, you gotta have it! We teach the fighter a way of throwing that left hook to the liver, but if the guy does not have the punch, does not have the quality to do so, it's not gonna help. I try now to teach the kids what I did during my career, what I learned from a manager.

Q: Can you teach a kid to punch?

JP:	No, no, no! That's wrong! You cannot teach a kid to be a puncher. That's a problem I had with an owner of a gym. He tried to teach me how I should train-that my training was old fashioned. And I said, 'What? Boxing's boxing. There is only one way of teaching a boxer the way of moving, a way of executing the punches, a way of blocking the punches, and a way of how to avoid the punches. 'And, you mean that if Sugar Ray Robinson was here as a trainer for your company, you mean he has an old style?' And, I quit from that particular gym.

Q: Can I ask what he said when you said that about Robinson?

JP:	He just kept his mouth shut. Once he told me how to teach, I said, 'No. Goodbye!'

Q: You have a tremendous amount of knockouts. When did you realize you had this awesome power?

JP:	That brings back memories of a manager. One day, my manager was trying to teach me how to set myself and execute the punches with more effectiveness. And I said, ' Harry, Harry, I'm not a puncher; I'm a boxer.'After my 29th straight knockout, he gives me a birthday card: "I'm not a puncher"

Q: When did it dawn on you? You thought you were a boxer.

JP:	I knew it when every fighter kept going down. I knew I had the punch.

Q: Who is the toughest you ever fought?

JP:	I had many tough fights. I had one helluva fight in 1963 at the Olympic Auditorium, with Jose "Portillo" Lopez.
I was almost down, and he was almost down. We fought eight rounds trying to knock each other out, and I ended up knocking Jose "Portillo" Lopez out. My toughest fight was Mimoun Ben Ali, the European champion that had never been knocked out in 62 professional bouts. I knocked him out in San Antonio Texas in '66 or '68. That fight was chosen as the best fight in the history of San Antonio.

Q: Did you fight amateur?

JP:	I had 21 fights...and lost 22. In other words, I had a bad record as an amateur.

Q: How could you be so good as a pro and so bad as an amateur?

JP:	I was very young. I didn't have the proper experience. I took my first amateur fight with one day of training in my life; and only because I went to see my best friend fight and his opponent did not show up. And the bullring in Mexicali, Mexico was full to the top to see that particular friend of mine fight. They started calling me: 'cabezon!'--cabezon meant big head, --you fight. I said you guys are crazy. I only trained one day in my life; you want me to fight this guy. He had a lot of experience, was well known. I agreed because the commission accepted it. They borrowed me a brand new set of trunks, my shoes, my wraps, and a mouthpiece. The white trunk was a beautiful, brand new trunk. At the second round, that trunk was red, full of blood.
When you're not used to getting hit in the nose and they touch your nose, blood just keeps squirting out, and that's what happened to me.

Q: Boxing isn't like tennis, when you lose, you get beat up. With such a bad record as an amateur, what made you continue as a pro?

JP:	I made a promise to God... (And he had to stop; his eyes welled-up with tears. And it was a moment or two before he could regain his composure) I said I'm going to be a boxer. I'm going to dedicate myself completely, and I did-thank God.

Q: To see such a veteran pro so moved, fighting must have meant more to you than just the money?

JP:	I would be wrong if I was to say, it's not for the money. That person who makes that statement, stating he's fighting not because of the money; he is a crazy person. Money is the main reason.

Q: Do you still keep in touch with any of the guys you fought?

JP:	Definitely! I do, yes. For example, Ruben Olivares, he and I are very close friends. I see many of the fighters, and we enjoy seeing each other. It's an honor; it's a pleasure. Today fighters are screaming and vulgarizing each other. I just don't think it's proper. We respected each other during those times. We have kept that respect until today.

Q: So, how do you react when you see these guys talking trash on TV?

JP:	It's senseless. I just don't see a reason. A lot of guys just do it to pop off, that's all.

Q: Was it ever personal with you? Were you ever really angry?

JP:	Never, I never was angry at nobody. We were in the same business, making money.
So, why should I be angry or have something against a person. Never did.

Q: As hard as you hit, did you ever stop someone and worry that they might be seriously hurt?

JP:	I never did. I did what I had to do. If a fighter was hurt, it was not my concern to try to stop myself from hitting him. I was paid to do my job, and that was it.

Q: Was Ruben the hardest puncher you ever fought?

JP:	No, never. The only fighter that hurt me was another Mexican fighter, Jose Medel. And Jose Medel was not recognized as a puncher.

Q: What advice would you give to a young fighter?

JP:	Dedicate! Dedicate themselves completely. That's my best recommendation.

_When I thanked him for the interview, he asked for my name again, as if he really wanted to remember it.
_


----------



## john garfield

Look forward to your comments about Pimental's take on current training methods, 'n punching power.


----------



## NoMas

Jules said:


> I like your trainer collection NoMas its wicked :thumbsup


thanks missy! i got about 200 pairs lol


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> *"LITTLE POISON" Q&A*
> 
> Jesus "Little Poison" Pimentel still looks within a couple of workouts of making the bantam limit. He moves nimbly, alert, generating energy. His eyes are kind -- not what you'd imagine from a killer who knocked out 69 men.
> 
> He was baby-faced as a fighter, and it's stood him in good stead these many years later; with his thick black hair, he looks easily 20 years younger than 72.
> 
> Pimentel ushered me to sit and ask him anything.
> 
> Q: You don't appear to be the least bit damaged after 80 fights, except for a hint of a fighter's nose.
> 
> JP	It's logical with that many fights, he smiled
> 
> Q: When you decided to pull the plug, what made you say, "I've had enough."
> 
> JP:	I didn't want to retire till I got a chance at the title...and, I got it, even though it was my last fight, but I got the opportunity and I fought a great champion, which was Ruben Olivares. Unfortunately, my time had past; I lost in a 12-round TKO.
> 
> Q: When you say your time had passed, what was it about your skills that wasn't right?
> 
> JP:	My legs, in the first place. My reflexes, they weren't the same no more...because punches that Ruben was throwing me, in my early days, I could easily avoid them. But, that's when I knew. I started feeling the punches...all the way to my neck, and I knew it was time for me to call it quits, which I did.
> 
> Q: How old were you when you retired?
> 
> JP:	I was only two months away from being 32. I retired December 14 of '71.
> 
> Q: What was the true story behind your walking out on the Edre Jofre fight?
> 
> JP:	That is wrong! The real story was the fight was cancelled not by us but the promoter, George Parnassus. And the reason was: Even though Edre Jofre was a world champion and I was the number one contender, Edre Jofre never fought in North America, and I, as the number one, had never fought in San Antonio. Neither did Edre Jofre, so there was not that kind of interest for a title fight, knowing it was for the bantamweight championship. So, that's why the promoter cancelled the fight. But, then he accused me of being afraid of Edre Jofre, and he had advanced me $10,000, which was wrong. I got suspended by Luis Spota, which at that time was the President of the World Boxing Council. Now, I wish that in that time Don King and the recent President of the World Boxing Council, Jose Suliman, was around. I would have been champion of the world. George Parnassus and Luis Spota, they used to eat out of the same plate. Parnassus told him a false story, and he suspended me for a full year.
> 
> Q: How much did the suspension hurt your career?
> 
> JP:	I still kept myself busy on the coast and Mexico. So, even though I was not making any big money or nothing, but I was active. After the suspension was lifted, I started my boxing career again.
> 
> Q: How do you feel about the dirty dealing that goes on in boxing today?
> 
> JP:	I will criticize nothing. Boxing is still boxing. The fighters of today, they are so fortunate; they can make all kinds of money.
> 
> Q: Do you think the advancements in training methods have improved fighters?
> 
> JP:	My opinion is: We didn't need all that stuff they do today. We fought like we knew best. The fighters of the past are the most dedicated fighters, especially, fighters from Mexico. We ate tortillas and beans; that was our main dish, but today a lot of vitamins, a lot of weight lifting. I don't believe in that myself.
> 
> Q: Mexican fighters have been known for their liver punches. Is it a difficult punch to learn?
> 
> JP:	A good body puncher, a liver puncher, to me, you gotta have it! We teach the fighter a way of throwing that left hook to the liver, but if the guy does not have the punch, does not have the quality to do so, it's not gonna help. I try now to teach the kids what I did during my career, what I learned from a manager.
> 
> Q: Can you teach a kid to punch?
> 
> JP:	No, no, no! That's wrong! You cannot teach a kid to be a puncher. That's a problem I had with an owner of a gym. He tried to teach me how I should train-that my training was old fashioned. And I said, 'What? Boxing's boxing. There is only one way of teaching a boxer the way of moving, a way of executing the punches, a way of blocking the punches, and a way of how to avoid the punches. 'And, you mean that if Sugar Ray Robinson was here as a trainer for your company, you mean he has an old style?' And, I quit from that particular gym.
> 
> Q: Can I ask what he said when you said that about Robinson?
> 
> JP:	He just kept his mouth shut. Once he told me how to teach, I said, 'No. Goodbye!'
> 
> Q: You have a tremendous amount of knockouts. When did you realize you had this awesome power?
> 
> JP:	That brings back memories of a manager. One day, my manager was trying to teach me how to set myself and execute the punches with more effectiveness. And I said, ' Harry, Harry, I'm not a puncher; I'm a boxer.'After my 29th straight knockout, he gives me a birthday card: "I'm not a puncher"
> 
> Q: When did it dawn on you? You thought you were a boxer.
> 
> JP:	I knew it when every fighter kept going down. I knew I had the punch.
> 
> Q: Who is the toughest you ever fought?
> 
> JP:	I had many tough fights. I had one helluva fight in 1963 at the Olympic Auditorium, with Jose "Portillo" Lopez.
> I was almost down, and he was almost down. We fought eight rounds trying to knock each other out, and I ended up knocking Jose "Portillo" Lopez out. My toughest fight was Mimoun Ben Ali, the European champion that had never been knocked out in 62 professional bouts. I knocked him out in San Antonio Texas in '66 or '68. That fight was chosen as the best fight in the history of San Antonio.
> 
> Q: Did you fight amateur?
> 
> JP:	I had 21 fights...and lost 22. In other words, I had a bad record as an amateur.
> 
> Q: How could you be so good as a pro and so bad as an amateur?
> 
> JP:	I was very young. I didn't have the proper experience. I took my first amateur fight with one day of training in my life; and only because I went to see my best friend fight and his opponent did not show up. And the bullring in Mexicali, Mexico was full to the top to see that particular friend of mine fight. They started calling me: 'cabezon!'--cabezon meant big head, --you fight. I said you guys are crazy. I only trained one day in my life; you want me to fight this guy. He had a lot of experience, was well known. I agreed because the commission accepted it. They borrowed me a brand new set of trunks, my shoes, my wraps, and a mouthpiece. The white trunk was a beautiful, brand new trunk. At the second round, that trunk was red, full of blood.
> When you're not used to getting hit in the nose and they touch your nose, blood just keeps squirting out, and that's what happened to me.
> 
> Q: Boxing isn't like tennis, when you lose, you get beat up. With such a bad record as an amateur, what made you continue as a pro?
> 
> JP:	I made a promise to God... (And he had to stop; his eyes welled-up with tears. And it was a moment or two before he could regain his composure) I said I'm going to be a boxer. I'm going to dedicate myself completely, and I did-thank God.
> 
> Q: To see such a veteran pro so moved, fighting must have meant more to you than just the money?
> 
> JP:	I would be wrong if I was to say, it's not for the money. That person who makes that statement, stating he's fighting not because of the money; he is a crazy person. Money is the main reason.
> 
> Q: Do you still keep in touch with any of the guys you fought?
> 
> JP:	Definitely! I do, yes. For example, Ruben Olivares, he and I are very close friends. I see many of the fighters, and we enjoy seeing each other. It's an honor; it's a pleasure. Today fighters are screaming and vulgarizing each other. I just don't think it's proper. We respected each other during those times. We have kept that respect until today.
> 
> Q: So, how do you react when you see these guys talking trash on TV?
> 
> JP:	It's senseless. I just don't see a reason. A lot of guys just do it to pop off, that's all.
> 
> Q: Was it ever personal with you? Were you ever really angry?
> 
> JP:	Never, I never was angry at nobody. We were in the same business, making money.
> So, why should I be angry or have something against a person. Never did.
> 
> Q: As hard as you hit, did you ever stop someone and worry that they might be seriously hurt?
> 
> JP:	I never did. I did what I had to do. If a fighter was hurt, it was not my concern to try to stop myself from hitting him. I was paid to do my job, and that was it.
> 
> Q: Was Ruben the hardest puncher you ever fought?
> 
> JP:	No, never. The only fighter that hurt me was another Mexican fighter, Jose Medel. And Jose Medel was not recognized as a puncher.
> 
> Q: What advice would you give to a young fighter?
> 
> JP:	Dedicate! Dedicate themselves completely. That's my best recommendation.
> 
> _When I thanked him for the interview, he asked for my name again, as if he really wanted to remember it.
> _


great interview!!!

almost gets annoying people talking about boxing be corrupt now, it always has been, and always (probably) will be, it just pisses me off, a fighter risking his life and putting himself thru so much pain, and not getting what he deserves...

with regards to him saying that fighters dont need vitamins and supplements and all the new training regimes etc, i think they are an advantage, and aslong as your opponent is using them, i feel you have to, just to stay up with them... personally i prefer the old skool ways of training, i dont like using protein shakes and bcaa's, but i got to!

i dont understand, what was the gym owners problem with his teaching techniques???

you cant teach a kid to be puncher, if he isnt a hard puncher... i remember one of my trainers telling me to stop getting close and trying to brawl in sparring, because im 6'2 and have long reach, he wanted me to stay outside and jab, move and punch, but my heros are all fighters not boxers, so i like a tear up lol but you got to fight to your advantages...

i liked pimentel's last comment... dedication!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats what every fighters needs, if you havnt got it, dont take part...


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> great interview!!!
> 
> almost gets annoying people talking about boxing be corrupt now, it always has been, and always (probably) will be, it just pisses me off, a fighter risking his life and putting himself thru so much pain, and not getting what he deserves...
> 
> with regards to him saying that fighters dont need vitamins and supplements and all the new training regimes etc, i think they are an advantage, and aslong as your opponent is using them, i feel you have to, just to stay up with them... personally i prefer the old skool ways of training, i dont like using protein shakes and bcaa's, but i got to!
> 
> i dont understand, what was the gym owners problem with his teaching techniques???
> 
> you cant teach a kid to be puncher, if he isnt a hard puncher... i remember one of my trainers telling me to stop getting close and trying to brawl in sparring, because im 6'2 and have long reach, he wanted me to stay outside and jab, move and punch, but my heros are all fighters not boxers, so i like a tear up lol but you got to fight to your advantages...
> 
> i liked pimentel's last comment... dedication!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats what every fighters needs, if you havnt got it, dont take part...


Great it struck a chord with you, NM. Sense Pimentel's fire in your words.


----------



## Meast

john garfield said:


> *"LITTLE POISON" Q&A*
> 
> Jesus "Little Poison" Pimentel still looks within a couple of workouts of making the bantam limit. He moves nimbly, alert, generating energy. His eyes are kind -- not what you'd imagine from a killer who knocked out 69 men.
> 
> He was baby-faced as a fighter, and it's stood him in good stead these many years later; with his thick black hair, he looks easily 20 years younger than 72.
> 
> Pimentel ushered me to sit and ask him anything.
> 
> Q: You don't appear to be the least bit damaged after 80 fights, except for a hint of a fighter's nose.
> 
> JP	It's logical with that many fights, he smiled
> 
> Q: When you decided to pull the plug, what made you say, "I've had enough."
> 
> JP:	I didn't want to retire till I got a chance at the title...and, I got it, even though it was my last fight, but I got the opportunity and I fought a great champion, which was Ruben Olivares. Unfortunately, my time had past; I lost in a 12-round TKO.
> 
> Q: When you say your time had passed, what was it about your skills that wasn't right?
> 
> JP:	My legs, in the first place. My reflexes, they weren't the same no more...because punches that Ruben was throwing me, in my early days, I could easily avoid them. But, that's when I knew. I started feeling the punches...all the way to my neck, and I knew it was time for me to call it quits, which I did.
> 
> Q: How old were you when you retired?
> 
> JP:	I was only two months away from being 32. I retired December 14 of '71.
> 
> Q: What was the true story behind your walking out on the Edre Jofre fight?
> 
> JP:	That is wrong! The real story was the fight was cancelled not by us but the promoter, George Parnassus. And the reason was: Even though Edre Jofre was a world champion and I was the number one contender, Edre Jofre never fought in North America, and I, as the number one, had never fought in San Antonio. Neither did Edre Jofre, so there was not that kind of interest for a title fight, knowing it was for the bantamweight championship. So, that's why the promoter cancelled the fight. But, then he accused me of being afraid of Edre Jofre, and he had advanced me $10,000, which was wrong. I got suspended by Luis Spota, which at that time was the President of the World Boxing Council. Now, I wish that in that time Don King and the recent President of the World Boxing Council, Jose Suliman, was around. I would have been champion of the world. George Parnassus and Luis Spota, they used to eat out of the same plate. Parnassus told him a false story, and he suspended me for a full year.
> 
> Q: How much did the suspension hurt your career?
> 
> JP:	I still kept myself busy on the coast and Mexico. So, even though I was not making any big money or nothing, but I was active. After the suspension was lifted, I started my boxing career again.
> 
> Q: How do you feel about the dirty dealing that goes on in boxing today?
> 
> JP:	I will criticize nothing. Boxing is still boxing. The fighters of today, they are so fortunate; they can make all kinds of money.
> 
> Q: Do you think the advancements in training methods have improved fighters?
> 
> JP:	My opinion is: We didn't need all that stuff they do today. We fought like we knew best. The fighters of the past are the most dedicated fighters, especially, fighters from Mexico. We ate tortillas and beans; that was our main dish, but today a lot of vitamins, a lot of weight lifting. I don't believe in that myself.
> 
> Q: Mexican fighters have been known for their liver punches. Is it a difficult punch to learn?
> 
> JP:	A good body puncher, a liver puncher, to me, you gotta have it! We teach the fighter a way of throwing that left hook to the liver, but if the guy does not have the punch, does not have the quality to do so, it's not gonna help. I try now to teach the kids what I did during my career, what I learned from a manager.
> 
> Q: Can you teach a kid to punch?
> 
> JP:	No, no, no! That's wrong! You cannot teach a kid to be a puncher. That's a problem I had with an owner of a gym. He tried to teach me how I should train-that my training was old fashioned. And I said, 'What? Boxing's boxing. There is only one way of teaching a boxer the way of moving, a way of executing the punches, a way of blocking the punches, and a way of how to avoid the punches. 'And, you mean that if Sugar Ray Robinson was here as a trainer for your company, you mean he has an old style?' And, I quit from that particular gym.
> 
> Q: Can I ask what he said when you said that about Robinson?
> 
> JP:	He just kept his mouth shut. Once he told me how to teach, I said, 'No. Goodbye!'
> 
> Q: You have a tremendous amount of knockouts. When did you realize you had this awesome power?
> 
> JP:	That brings back memories of a manager. One day, my manager was trying to teach me how to set myself and execute the punches with more effectiveness. And I said, ' Harry, Harry, I'm not a puncher; I'm a boxer.'After my 29th straight knockout, he gives me a birthday card: "I'm not a puncher"
> 
> Q: When did it dawn on you? You thought you were a boxer.
> 
> JP:	I knew it when every fighter kept going down. I knew I had the punch.
> 
> Q: Who is the toughest you ever fought?
> 
> JP:	I had many tough fights. I had one helluva fight in 1963 at the Olympic Auditorium, with Jose "Portillo" Lopez.
> I was almost down, and he was almost down. We fought eight rounds trying to knock each other out, and I ended up knocking Jose "Portillo" Lopez out. My toughest fight was Mimoun Ben Ali, the European champion that had never been knocked out in 62 professional bouts. I knocked him out in San Antonio Texas in '66 or '68. That fight was chosen as the best fight in the history of San Antonio.
> 
> Q: Did you fight amateur?
> 
> JP:	I had 21 fights...and lost 22. In other words, I had a bad record as an amateur.
> 
> Q: How could you be so good as a pro and so bad as an amateur?
> 
> JP:	I was very young. I didn't have the proper experience. I took my first amateur fight with one day of training in my life; and only because I went to see my best friend fight and his opponent did not show up. And the bullring in Mexicali, Mexico was full to the top to see that particular friend of mine fight. They started calling me: 'cabezon!'--cabezon meant big head, --you fight. I said you guys are crazy. I only trained one day in my life; you want me to fight this guy. He had a lot of experience, was well known. I agreed because the commission accepted it. They borrowed me a brand new set of trunks, my shoes, my wraps, and a mouthpiece. The white trunk was a beautiful, brand new trunk. At the second round, that trunk was red, full of blood.
> When you're not used to getting hit in the nose and they touch your nose, blood just keeps squirting out, and that's what happened to me.
> 
> Q: Boxing isn't like tennis, when you lose, you get beat up. With such a bad record as an amateur, what made you continue as a pro?
> 
> JP:	I made a promise to God... (And he had to stop; his eyes welled-up with tears. And it was a moment or two before he could regain his composure) I said I'm going to be a boxer. I'm going to dedicate myself completely, and I did-thank God.
> 
> Q: To see such a veteran pro so moved, fighting must have meant more to you than just the money?
> 
> JP:	I would be wrong if I was to say, it's not for the money. That person who makes that statement, stating he's fighting not because of the money; he is a crazy person. Money is the main reason.
> 
> Q: Do you still keep in touch with any of the guys you fought?
> 
> JP:	Definitely! I do, yes. For example, Ruben Olivares, he and I are very close friends. I see many of the fighters, and we enjoy seeing each other. It's an honor; it's a pleasure. Today fighters are screaming and vulgarizing each other. I just don't think it's proper. We respected each other during those times. We have kept that respect until today.
> 
> Q: So, how do you react when you see these guys talking trash on TV?
> 
> JP:	It's senseless. I just don't see a reason. A lot of guys just do it to pop off, that's all.
> 
> Q: Was it ever personal with you? Were you ever really angry?
> 
> JP:	Never, I never was angry at nobody. We were in the same business, making money.
> So, why should I be angry or have something against a person. Never did.
> 
> Q: As hard as you hit, did you ever stop someone and worry that they might be seriously hurt?
> 
> JP:	I never did. I did what I had to do. If a fighter was hurt, it was not my concern to try to stop myself from hitting him. I was paid to do my job, and that was it.
> 
> Q: Was Ruben the hardest puncher you ever fought?
> 
> JP:	No, never. The only fighter that hurt me was another Mexican fighter, Jose Medel. And Jose Medel was not recognized as a puncher.
> 
> Q: What advice would you give to a young fighter?
> 
> JP:	Dedicate! Dedicate themselves completely. That's my best recommendation.
> 
> _When I thanked him for the interview, he asked for my name again, as if he really wanted to remember it.
> _


Nice interview JG :good


----------



## john garfield

Meast said:


> Nice interview JG :good


do you agree with "Poison's" POV 'bout training 'n punching power, Meast?


----------



## NoMas

Jules said:


> No way  You're worse than a woman


lol go to the trainer section, i posted them up, im a addict hahaha

i like your sig to, i had to read it a few time haha


----------



## doug.ie

great to catch up on this after being away for a while


----------



## Meast

john garfield said:


> do you agree with "Poison's" POV 'bout training 'n punching power, Meast?


I think everyone has a puncher inside them, it's just only some boxers have it inside them to fully use it.


----------



## john garfield

Meast said:


> I think everyone has a puncher inside them, it's just only some boxers have it inside them to fully use it.


So ya believe -- contrary to Pimentel -- with the right training 'n hard work punching power can be learned?

Interested what the consensus will be on this.


----------



## rafa_garcia

Nice interview John.

The origin of punching power is very similar to the origin of a good chin, I think. There's got to be a way to get it if you weren't "born" with it, but no one's figured out how.

Tortillas and beans, the breakfast of champions.


----------



## john garfield

rafa_garcia said:


> Nice interview John.
> 
> The origin of punching power is very similar to the origin of a good chin, I think. There's got to be a way to get it if you weren't "born" with it, but no one's figured out how.
> 
> *Tortillas and beans, the breakfast of champions*.


Pimentel agrees whole-heartedly, rg


----------



## rafa_garcia

I meant it, too. As a guy who was born in Mexico and lived there until the age of 26, I can attest to the quality of a tortillas and beans meal.


----------



## john garfield

rafa_garcia said:


> I meant it, too. As a guy who was born in Mexico and lived there until the age of 26, I can attest to the quality of a tortillas and beans meal.


do ya agree with Pimentel 'bout the left hook to the liver, rg?


----------



## rafa_garcia

I think I do. At some point, punching power, chin, and the _gancho al higado_ all depend on commitment, which has a psychological edge to it which can not be taught.


----------



## john garfield

rafa_garcia said:


> I think I do. At some point, punching power, chin, and the _gancho al higado_ all depend on commitment, which has a psychological edge to it which can not be taught.


Why doya think Mexican fighters are legendary left-hookers, rg?


----------



## Michael

There must be some secret trick in Mexican boxing circles on how to throw a great hook to the body, that they aren't telling anyone else

One of the moments which sticks out for me in the Olympics is that Oscar Valdez hook to the liver which put an Irish fighter, John Joe Nevin down. Nevin, as skillful and crafty a fighter you could wish to see, later said he had never been hit harder. Looking forward to seeing how this Valdez lad does in the pros:deal


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> There must be some secret trick in Mexican boxing circles on how to throw a great hook to the body, that they aren't telling anyone else
> 
> One of the moments which sticks out for me in the Olympics is that Oscar Valdez hook to the liver which put an Irish fighter, John Joe Nevin down. Nevin, as skillful and crafty a fighter you could wish to see, later said he had never been hit harder. Looking forward to seeing how this Valdez lad does in the pros:deal


Have a theory, S, why Mexicans are so good throwing hooks, 'specially the paralyzing Gancho. Many of the most lethal -- Olivares, Cuevas, etc. -- where converted southpaws, which made it more natural -- more fluid -- doubling hooks to the body 'n head with power.


----------



## Meast

Another thing is, all Mexican kids see their idles throwing great left hooks, they probably spent their whole youth pummeling each other downstairs.

As far as hard punching goes @john garfield, it seems to me that some of the very hardest punchers are also mean bastards. They want to go out there and hurt people. What do you reckon?


----------



## Michael

john garfield said:


> Have a theory, S, why Mexicans are so good throwing hooks, 'specially the paralyzing Gancho. Many of the most lethal -- Olivares, Cuevas, etc. -- *where converted southpaws*, which made it more natural -- more fluid -- doubling hooks to the body 'n head with power.


That could be an accurate explanation John. Converting a left hander to an orthodox makes good sense anyways, when you consider that the left hand (a southpaw's strongest hand obviously) is the hand most used by an orthodox fighter, for jabbing hooking etc. Cotto is probably one of the best recent examples of converted southpaw's, and the left hook and jab are his best weapons.


----------



## john garfield

Sportofkings said:


> That could be an accurate explanation John. Converting a left hander to an orthodox makes good sense anyways, when you consider that the left hand (a southpaw's strongest hand obviously) is the hand most used by an orthodox fighter, for jabbing hooking etc. *Cotto is probably one of the best recent examples of converted southpaw's, and the left hook and jab are his best weapons*.


Spot-on, S, but for a few exceptions, the big Mexican bangers were one-handed fighters...the hand closest the enemy, the bunker-buster hook.


----------



## john garfield

*"1st IMPRESSION OF "A-FORCE" HARRISON*

For a few seconds, Americans saw the promise of undefeated 2000 British Olympic Super Heavyweight Champion, Audley "A-Force" Harrison&#8230;and a spark in a division on life support. It was sudden, decisive and destructive. A final whistling left, of a series, in the seventh round sent Robert Davis sprawling across the ring, tangled in the ropes like a marionette. Referee Raul Caiz saved the journeyman at 2:21.

Harrison's appearance in the TV main-go against Davis on FSN's "Best Damn Sports Show Period", with James Toney as a guest, was supposed to kick-start his career, especially if a clip circled the globe of a flare-up with Toney.

If there was an erector set for matchmakers, Davis would have been built for Harrison: good sized, punched creditably -- 16 of 31 wins by KO -- names like Michael Moorer, and Monte Barrett on his resume -- competitive but not impregnable - a target.

The 6'6", 254, Harrison didn't start against Davis to exploit the showcase. There was a zip code between them, as the southpaw, Harrison, circled left, cautiously.

Davis pressed forward -- hands high and tight -- chin tucked in -- like a mechanical fighter in an arcade game, trying to get past "A-Force's" jab and find a home for his hook. But Harrison kept sliding off behind the lance

Though there was but an inch difference in their reach, Harrison's jab stretched across the ring.

Suddenly, Davis looked up from the canvas. A quick, stiff jab - or tangled feet - deposited him. The ref ruled it a knockdown, despite Davis's protestations.

In the second, Davis shuffled forward purposefully, but without any answers to the riddle. The bout settled in to a dull recital, more befitting a surgical theater than a fight arena. The silence was deafening - only the odd shout for more action roused those nodding off. It had all the enjoyment of Chinese water torture. 'What kind of a statement did Harrison think he was making?'

"The fight's tonight!" cracked a photog on the ring apron. The most colorful thing about Harrison was the canary yellow and scarlet of his fringed trunks.

Harrison brought lots of attitude to pre-fight interviews. But, by the end of round six, he appeared more bark than bite - a less frenetic Larry Donald. Worst of all: dull.

It was true: 'You can't judge a book by its cover.'

The only reason the media wouldn't savage him: Raining on a parade doesn't come easy after the kind of buffet Pechanga layed out for the press.

In the seventh, Harrison was vindicated. The 27 minutes of sleepwalking was forgiven, with an exclamation point. A killer heavyweight replaced the choral conductor.

Harrison found his opening -- crashed four punches to Davis's head, turning his legs to string. He stumbled across the ring, drunk -- the ropes saving him from a judge's lap. The ref stopped it immediately.

That flash of power reminded why heavyweight was once the premier division. It erased the excruciating six rounds previous.

After Harrison's arm was raised, the man who towered over most in the arena disappeared in a sea of euphoric scarlet and yellow at center ring. Harrison scrambled through the scrum and bounded down the steps, brushing past the microphones of eager reporters -- with an imperial wave of his hand -- and made a beeline for more important exposure on TBDSSP

Harrison's trainer, Thell Torrance, explained Audley's puzzling strategy of consistently moving left into Davis' power. "Davis is a natural left hander," he said, " He knows how to fight southpaws. If you watch his old fights, he throws a pretty durn good hook. What we were attempting was: Step over to Davis's right side -- to cut him off - make him lead when he was off balance, and get off combinations."

Mission accomplished.

Harrison carries himself as if his coronation is Manifest Destiny. The big question is: In a division full of sequoias, how does he take the kind of punishment he dished out? He didn't show any enthusiasm to provide an answer.

He may be the next Herbie Hide, but at least he's on the radar and worth watching. What we know is: His intensity doesn't match his agility, so we don't know if his vision is a mirage.


----------



## McGrain

Not bad JG; not bad at all. Basically nobody was to know that even describing him as the next Herbie Hide was extending to much credit...


----------



## Yiddle

YEAH Hide would not be to happy with a comparison with Audley


----------



## Robney

Yiddle said:


> YEAH Hide would not be to happy with a comparison with Audley


:lol: Can't imagine he would be...


----------



## john garfield

Robney said:


> :lol: Can't imagine he would be...


Even after losing, R, thought Herbie Hide had great potential -- blazing hand speed, some real pop 'n media savvy.

Did he pack-it-in because he thought it futile,or realize he didn't have the whiskers to tangle with the big boys?

What's become of him?


----------



## Yiddle

the last i heard of hide someone had been killed at a party at his house but he was not involved he may not of even been at home at the time but that was ages ago


----------



## NoMas

herbie hide was the man, he was suppose to come back, he was on prizefighter while ago...

harrisons mistake was trying to a sugar ray leonard after the olympics and promote himself and try to capitalize on every fight and not concentrate on boxing... had he gone with frank warren or someone and a decent coach and trainer he may of done better, hes terrible to watch, like hes scared to fight... needs more self confidence in the ring...

strange fighter, should of done alot better...


----------



## Robney

john garfield said:


> Even after losing, R, thought Herbie Hide had great potential -- blazing hand speed, some real pop 'n media savvy.
> 
> Did he pack-it-in because he thought it futile,or realize he didn't have the whiskers to tangle with the big boys?
> 
> What's become of him?


Herbie was one of my favorites, but he always looked to be scared of his opponent until he hit them and saw their reaction to it. I remember watching the Conroy Nelson bout (on Eurosport I believe), and eventhough the guy was a journeyman you saw that his imposing physique only made Hide very reluctant to engage.
It didn't take long before Herbert hit him with something big, but it was typical of Hide.
I think the Vitali fight (much more as the Bowe one) made him believe that fear was just, and he was never the same after.


----------



## Hook!

JG, what's the closest you've been to any member of the mayweather family fights/build up?


----------



## john garfield

Hook! said:


> JG, what's the closest you've been to any member of the mayweather family fights/build up?


Wlll get back to ya on this, H. Just leavin' for an over-priced dinner ta celebrate my wife's birthday.


----------



## Hook!

john garfield said:


> Wlll get back to ya on this, H. Just leavin' for an over-priced dinner ta celebrate my wife's birthday.


have fun pal


----------



## john garfield

Hook! said:


> have fun pal


Other than Roger, Hook, have never seen any of the Mayweathers train or fight live.

Terrible cliche, but time really does fly. Can't believe it was over 20 years ago that I was ringside when "The Black Mamba" out-hit, out-generaled 'n out-classed Vinny Pazianeza at light-welter outdoors at Caesar's in Vegas.

It was such a one-sided mismatch for Mayweather, the highlight was when the UD was announced 'n Lou Duva, in a rage, charged across the ring at Roger, who turned and flattened him with a short right hand.


----------



## Boxed Ears

john garfield said:


> We need guys like you ta carry the torch, S If Tommy Jackson met you, he'd say, "Ya wanna shoot rats?"


 JG, I watched Patterson/Jackson II recently and there was one point where, in between rounds, as Floyd was being tended to on his stool, likely getting the advice to just keep hitting Jackson in the chin, where the camera showed Jackson doing an excited "pee-pee dance" kind of jogging/pacing, in a circular motion. All I could think of was "Ya wanna shoot rats?" being yelled over the 'The Merry-Go-Round Broke Down'/Looney Tunes theme song, as I watched him. So, your stories do stick with a fella. :yep And I did laugh as I watched and played my own mental soundtrack over the spectacle.


doug.ie said:


> I'm convinced the single event that expedited Stillman to sell the gym-- more than the economics - was Tommy "Hurricane" Jackson. He out-eccentriced any living human. It wasn't that he went out of his way to compete with Lou Jenkins motorcycling up the stairs to the gym, or Mickey Walker and Fritzie Zivic's barhopping; Jackson defined ADD 40 years before the malady existed. He puzzled everybody from his first appearance in the early '50s. He was a 6-3 smooth-muscled heavyweight from Far Rockaway, New York. His constant bemused look and the maniacal light in his eyes said there was nobody home. He was a curiosity in a professional fight gym housing world champions. Not only wasn't he equipped to be a fighter; it was questionable if he could get all his limbs to obey. His imitation of prizefighting and training had everybody shaking their heads, and Stillman muttering aloud: "Disgraceful..." When he sparred -- if you could call it that - Jackson just out-annoyed spar mates, yet he kept winning fights, until he graduated to main events, and -- unbelievably-- got ranked in the top 10. He wasn't courageous in the way you would normally understand it, where a fighter would take tremendous punishment and summon something from within to storm back. Jackson couldn't get out of the way of punches and seemed never to feel pain; he soaked-it-up and kept flailing and swatting... He was like some terrible toy you couldn't shut off no matter how many times you slammed it against the wall. Watching Jackson in boxing gloves was like listening to Roseanne Barr sing The Star Spangled Banner. His only response to any question was: "Wanna shoot rats?"


 Quoted for the sake of re-quoting.


----------



## Robney

What's that "Chat to SNV" thing BE? :think
in my country 0800 numbers are free of charge by the way.


----------



## john garfield

Hook,

Just remembered, the one time I was around Floyd was at the final presser in L.A. for his JMM bout. 

What struck me immediately as he styled toward the dais with a walking stick, flanked by what looked like an NFL line in T-shirts, was how long his arms were. Looked like if he extended his fingers, he could've touched the ground.


----------



## Boxed Ears

Robney said:


> What's that "Chat to SNV" thing BE? :think in my country 0800 numbers are free of charge by the way.


 The Churchill Insurance Company's mascot now works for Sugar Incorporated. Boom. Tadow. It's done. :yep Martin Clunes is also in. He brought all of his horses to the SNV-Day parade last year and declared his status as an affiliate of the first Valuevian church of Caxap.


----------



## john garfield

Boxed Ears said:


> The Churchill Insurance Company's mascot now works for Sugar Incorporated. Boom. Tadow. It's done. :yep Martin Clunes is also in. He brought all of his horses to the SNV-Day parade last year and declared his status as an affiliate of the first Valuevian church of Caxap.


I'd need the Enigma code to crack whatever the hell this means. Is it Monty Python-speak?


----------



## Boogle McDougal

Finally! Rocky's book has been out of print for awhile, fetching some ridiculous bids on ebay. However, it seems I've managed to luck out. Won a first edition paperback with some wear. I don't mind. I got Dempsey's book second-hand too, warning of a pipe tobacco smell. Just adds character.


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> Finally! Rocky's book has been out of print for awhile, fetching some ridiculous bids on ebay. However, it seems I've managed to luck out. Won a first edition paperback with some wear. I don't mind. I got Dempsey's book second-hand too, warning of a pipe tobacco smell. Just adds character.


Love seeing any shout-out for Rocky, Boggle. Instantly transports me back to the ol' neighborhood, trailin' him to the gym or playin' stickball.

When he KO'd Zale, the block parties rivaled VJ Day.


----------



## Boogle McDougal

john garfield said:


> Love seeing any shout-out for Rocky, Boggle. Instantly transports me back to the ol' neighborhood, trailin' him to the gym or playin' stickball.
> 
> When he KO'd Zale, the block parties rivaled VJ Day.


I could only imagine. Can't wait to read it, Rocky cracks me up.

Did you ever meet Zale, JG? Watching The Way It Was, you get the feeling he and The Rock had a great deal of respect for each other. Kinda funny, considering how Rock talked about how he wanted to bust his head open.

What about Basilio? Got any good stories about him?


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> I could only imagine. Can't wait to read it, Rocky cracks me up.
> 
> Did you ever meet Zale, JG? Watching The Way It Was, you get the feeling he and The Rock had a great deal of respect for each other. Kinda funny, considering how Rock talked about how he wanted to bust his head open.
> 
> What about Basilio? Got any good stories about him?


Will get back with recollections of Zale 'n Basilio,B


----------



## john garfield

Boggle said:


> I could only imagine. Can't wait to read it, Rocky cracks me up.
> 
> Did you ever meet Zale, JG? Watching The Way It Was, you get the feeling he and The Rock had a great deal of respect for each other. Kinda funny, considering how Rock talked about how he wanted to bust his head open.
> 
> What about Basilio? Got any good stories about him?


Here's a Basilio story that's on this thread earlier, B. Scroll down on this link: http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?532-JG-RINGSIDE/page6. Also, here's here's an insight to his personality:

Long after Carmine hung-'em-up -- even when age slowed him considerably, you'd have be on your guard meetin' him for the first time at some boxing function

He delighted love-tappin' unsuspecting autograph hunters with his left hook to the bread basket, hearin' 'em go OOF!

your posting of SOMEBODY UP THERE LIKES ME, brings to mind a story

In the early '50s, there was a slim, blond pretty-boy-- totally outta place -- lounging against the far wall at Stillman's watching Graziano like a hawk every day. Rocky was aware of it, but thought he was just another fruit obsessed with him.

It was Paul Newman. At that time an unknown actor studying to play Rocky in SUTLM.

The fight scene for Rocky's battle with Tony Zale was choreographed at Stillmans. Because Zale was still in great shape, he was brought in to play himself, 'n promptly fired when he broke Newman's ribs. Zale didn't know how to pull his punches. Court Shepard, a stuntman who looked a lot like Zale, replaced him.


----------



## john garfield

_Reading about Sam Soliman's defeat of Geovanni Lorenzo on Friday, reminded me of the first time I saw Soliman live at the Petchanga Resort & Casino in 2004 _
*Sam"King"Soliman:Benigne with boxing gloves*

Judging from the whistling and screaming for Sam Soliman (27-7/ 9 KO's) before his return with Raymond Joval of the Netherlands, most of Melbourne, Au. must have been in the crowd.

The two middleweights were a study in contrast waiting to be introduced: Joval, a tri-colored crown woven as tightly from his hair as barbed wire, decorated his bald dome, (Soliman's corner strenuously objected to before the fight, saying it could cause a cut) His face suggested a spring coiling tighter. He was as stolid as a monument.

Soliman bounced playfully in his corner, smiling and waving to his fans. He looked like he needed to be tethered. With every wave, his cheering section of women screamed "Samy" louder. Shades of Elvis Presley.

The tone of the fight was set in the first round: Joval, (32-3/ 14 KO's) with the rounded muscles of Marvin Hagler, hunched over, hands high and tight, plodded forward to close the gap and land short combinations. Soliman was quicker handed, looser, spontaneous, and appeared to flail rather than punch. He left his head straight up after firing, an inviting target. But he turned out to be a con.

Soliman's head was rarely there to be hit; it was just bait. And the few punches he took didn't faze him. He wasn't referred to in OZ as the "chin of granite," for no reason. He'd never been stopped in 34 fights. Though Soliman's punches weren't compact, and didn't look like they had bad intentions, both his fists had homing devices; they always found Joval's face and body flush.

Initially, though Soliman reacted with knee-jerk quickness, his swings, though accurate, looked aimless and without power. He landed uppercuts and flurries with Joval against the ropes. Soliman earned points, but his blows didn't look damaging enough to discourage Joval for long.

The 2nd stanza was a replay: Joval trying to hunt Soliman down, and the Aussie painting Joval with right uppercuts and shoeshines, and always with his head up, as if admiring his work.

Joval increased the pressure in the 3rd and tried to force exchanges. Women in the crowd, screamed, "S-A-M-Y! S-A-M-Y!" Soliman moved around the pocket clock wise, hands at his sides, his head forward as a lure, and answered every lead with a right uppercut, and slid off. Soliman darted to a hyper beat and Joval couldn't get a rhythm.

Soliman kept backing off, tempting and punishing him.

With a smack heard across the arena in the 4th, Soliman caught Joval near the ropes with a right uppercut, and down he went, backwards. He struggled to his feet at six, dazed, and the ref completed the mandatory 8. It was the first realization that Soliman's punches carried more zip than they appeared.

While the ref counted over Joval, Soliman, euphoric, leaped high in the air and did two spinning back kicks. This was Roberto Benigne with boxing gloves. When Joval resumed, Soliman set down on his punches and tried to finish him, but the Dutchman was resolute and lasted the round.

After every round, Soliman grinned and wanted to touch gloves with Joval on the way back to his corner. It brought new meaning to: "Take that and like it." Joval wanted none of it.

In the sixth, it was beginning to look like Soliman was doing special affects; every punch he threw, Joval was at the end of it. Now the showman in the former kick-boxer came out. Soliman moved with his arms dangling down, jiggling his body, taunting the one-dimensional Joval. Whenever Joval got close enough, Soliman parted his tightly held gloves with an inside uppercut.

To the continued ear splitting, "Samy! Samy! Samy," Soliman kept beating Joval to the punch in the 7th, reducing it to a sparring session; not a revenge match with the number-two-rated IBF middleweight who'd gotten a unanimous nod over him in 1991.

Even though Soliman was making an impressive showing on Fox TV, his trainer Dave Hedgecock and manager, Stuart Duncan -- judging by the looks on their faces, were not happy seeing Soliman clowning in the seventh: He shook his arms like spaghetti and drooped his body listlessly, sending a buzz through the crowd, thinking he'd run out of steam. Whenever Joval tried to jump on him, he was met by the right uppercut, and it continued that way through the 9th.

As the 9th closed, Soliman rained unanswered punches on Joval in the corner. It was his strongest show of sustained offense since he'd knocked Joval down earlier. The referee stood close, studying Joval. Between rounds, the doctor checked him.

Soliman changed his attack from the tenth through 12th; he started to throw more right hands, and lead body punches - really thumping them home. After an inside uppercut in the 11th from Soliman - that the ref didn't see - Joval lost his balance and rolled backwards like a tumbler across the ring. The ref ruled it no knockdown. For the remainder of the round, Soliman's corner men rolled their eyes as he did "the drunken sailor walk " - defying gravity -- trying to get the gun-shy Joval to lead.

Joval's right eye was nicked in the 12th, and both men tried to finish strong in the center of the ring, head to head. Soliman wind-milled accurate head punches inside. Joval went through the motions, but looked totally drained and demoralized.

The judges had it 119-108, 120-107, 120-107, all for Soliman. This reporter had it 120-107 for Soliman.

Every good comic had to have a good straight man. Joval was his. As one Aussie described Soliman: "He's not a big banger but he could hit you on the soles of the feet while you're skipping."


----------



## Robney

Thanks JG...
Like a story with a countryman of my in it (there aren't that many around in boxing).
But the "Soliman kept beating Joval to the punch in the 7th, reducing it to a sparring session; not a revenge match with the number-two-rated IBF middleweight *who'd gotten a unanimous nod over him in 1991*." part is wrong. They weren't even pros back in '91 (it was 10 years later in 2001), and it might have been a Majority Decision (can't remember myself, but BR is mostly right about these things).

:good


----------



## john garfield

Robney said:


> Thanks JG...
> Like a story with a countryman of my in it (there aren't that many around in boxing).
> But the "Soliman kept beating Joval to the punch in the 7th, reducing it to a sparring session; not a revenge match with the number-two-rated IBF middleweight *who'd gotten a unanimous nod over him in 1991*." part is wrong. They weren't even pros back in '91 (it was 10 years later in 2001), and it might have been a Majority Decision (can't remember myself, but BR is mostly right about these things).
> 
> *When I send some lads to your house for humiliating me, R, it's nothing personal*.
> 
> :good


----------



## Robney

john garfield said:


> When I send some lads to your house for humiliating me, R, it's nothing personal.


:lol:
I'll make sure the coffee is ready, and the beers are cold :good

But that reminds me... have you ever seen Regilio Tuur box JG?


----------



## john garfield

Robney said:


> :lol:
> I'll make sure the coffee is ready, and the beers are cold :good
> 
> But that reminds me... have you ever seen Regilio Tuur box JG?


Tuur impressed the hell outta me -- chiseled like a 130-pound block of granite, fast-twitch reflexes, every punch in the arsenal 'n could CRACK like Julian jackson

Thought he'd be king 'n rule for a long time.

He's an enigma ta me. Aside from being out-slicked by Grove,he fell off my radar, 'n always wondered why. He wasn't beat-up. Thought he was a dangerous dangerous fighter, a threat to KO anybody.

As I write this, have some recollection hearing he had eye problems, but wouldn't swear to it.

Ifya know more,R, would love ta hear it.


----------



## Robney

He lost a fight after that to Yoma (wich was pure home cooking as much as I remember).
After that he took the WBO Featherweight belt and defended it a couple of times when he decided to retire in his prime, like he always said he would (Haye style). Giving up on getting the Azuma Nelson bout he desperately wanted, wich of course was a stupid, stupid move...
He went into business and that soon went belly up, losing all his money.

Had to make a comeback jears later after being to jail, and was never the same... Lost a SD to Salido (when people didn't know how good he was yet), won a few fights after and went to jail again for the same offence, wich was beating up his girlfriend.

Sad story.
I was a fan, but he made every mistake in the book after making it, living the cliche.


----------



## john garfield

Robney said:


> He lost a fight after that to Yoma (wich was pure home cooking as much as I remember).
> After that he took the WBO Featherweight belt and defended it a couple of times when he decided to retire in his prime, like he always said he would (Haye style). Giving up on getting the Azuma Nelson bout he desperately wanted, wich of course was a stupid, stupid move...
> He went into business and that soon went belly up, losing all his money.
> 
> Had to make a comeback jears later after being to jail, and was never the same... Lost a SD to Salido (when people didn't know how good he was yet), won a few fights after and went to jail again for the same offence, wich was beating up his girlfriend.
> 
> Sad story.
> I was a fan, but he made every mistake in the book after making it, living the cliche.


Indeed, sad ta hear, r. Seemed like the world was his oyster; and he had the chance ta put Holland on the map the way Pac's done with the Philippines.


----------



## Boxed Ears

john garfield said:


> I'd need the Enigma code to crack whatever the hell this means. Is it Monty Python-speak?


 :lol: I get that a lot, JG. Sorry, mate.


----------



## john garfield

_*In light of what Bernard Dunne accomplished, thought this interview before he became a main-eventer would be of interest*._
*BERNARD DUNNE SPEAKS HIS MIND*

Q:Bernard, will you a step up in rounds?

BD: It'll be another eight-rounder, I gather...Probably have one more eight round - two at max -- and then up to ten, 12-round fights. It won't be too long before I'm fighting ten-rounders.

Q:To the guys that want to put you in with the best fighters in the world right now, what do you say to them?

BD:It ain't as easy as it looks. Any kid that gets in to fight - no matter who they're fight'n -- gets in to win. Nobody gets in there to lose. Records can be very deceiv'n. Just two men against each other. One shot can end the fight...no matter how bad an opponent is...It's a learn'n experience. You can't expect fighters like myself, who are up-'n- com'n - to be step'n in with world champions. You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk. I'm definitely at the walk'n stage now, and I'm break'n into a light trot, I think. Maybe I'll be running very soon.

Q:Will you ever get as fast as your racing greyhounds?

BD:I don't think so. My greyhounds aren't doing too bad at the moment...but they're definitely faster than I am. We're stepp'n up with every fight. We're gett'n a lot of experience here in the gym...and I'm just happy with the progress I'm make'n.You can gradually see the improvement in my technique and ability. I'm definitely improv'n as a fighter.

Q:As I watch you spar and fight, you don't jump in as quick for the KO. Have you been working on that?

BD:Yeah, I'm focused on that now. That's one of me main goals: to control me self, to control me temperament. I box opponents - break them down...and then... kill them...rather than go in and kill them.


----------



## MrSmall

Great writeups as always JG !


----------



## Michael

Good stuff JG.


----------



## john garfield

will keep'em comin', MrSmall 'n Sportofkings


----------



## Strike

Great stuff JG, even if I don't always post, I do read.


----------



## NoMas

lol @ bernard dunne... great stuff


----------



## NoMas

hey jg, we need somemore crack! haha where the stories at???


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> hey jg, we need somemore crack! haha where the stories at???


A joy that ya wanna read more, NM. Will joggle what few brain cells I have left 'n see what I can come up with. Wish others had your addiction. Spread the word.

You could be the candyman.


----------



## Jim Bowen

john garfield said:


> A joy that ya wanna read more, NM. Will joggle what few brain cells I have left 'n see what I can come up with. Wish others had your addiction. Spread the word.
> 
> You could be the candyman.


As I've said before JG your stories are inspirational. Well written articles on little known historical subjects, your insight's always valued around here, and if you could dig anything more up it would be eagerly anticipated as usual.


----------



## Wallet

Jim Bowen said:


> As I've said before JG your stories are inspirational. Well written articles on little known historical subjects, your insight's always valued around here, and if you could dig anything more up it would be eagerly anticipated as usual.


:good


----------



## NoMas

@jg

told few people about your stories brother, although they might not post, they enjoy reading them!

had to stop reading tapias book as it was the 3rd really depressing book i had read in a row haha i will return to it, but at moment im reading teddy atlas's one now, i cant put it down, its a brilliant read, you met or got any stories on him?


----------



## john garfield

Jim Bowen said:


> As I've said before JG your stories are inspirational. Well written articles on little known historical subjects, your insight's always valued around here, and if you could dig anything more up it would be eagerly anticipated as usual.


Screw a story, JB, the next rounds on me.


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> @jg
> 
> told few people about your stories brother, although they might not post, they enjoy reading them!
> 
> had to stop reading tapias book as it was the 3rd really depressing book i had read in a row haha i will return to it, but at moment im reading teddy atlas's one now, i cant put it down, its a brilliant read, you met or got any stories on him?


Funny, in all the years I've been aroun' the game ('n it's such a small community), never ran into Teddy, NM


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> Funny, in all the years I've been aroun' the game ('n it's such a small community), never ran into Teddy, NM


was hoping you might of had couple stories on him haha im reading his book at the moment, its brilliant, i didnt know he was such a nutcase at times, getting a burner and trying to kill lalonde! dauuuuuum lol


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> was hoping you might of had couple stories on him haha im reading his book at the moment, its brilliant, i didnt know he was such a nutcase at times, getting a burner and trying to kill lalonde! dauuuuuum lol


i spent a fair amount of time 'round Lalonde, NM. Hard to believe he was ever a boxer. Not a hint of all his fights on his face -- better lookin' than any male model. Sharp as a tack. Deferential -- a gentleman to his toes.

Watched the same scenario play-out at every gym I saw him at. One look at his kisser, with his golden locks, 'n spar mates thought he'd be a piece-a-cake. _Where they ever wrong! With big gloves 'n headgear, he rattled brains 'n dropped guys with his straight left; 'n if it was a war they wanted, he was quick to oblige._


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> i spent a fair amount of time 'round Lalonde, NM. Hard to believe he was ever a boxer. Not a hint of all his fights on his face -- better lookin' than any male model. Sharp as a tack. Deferential -- a gentleman to his toes.
> 
> Watched the same scenario play-out at every gym I saw him at. One look at his kisser, with his golden locks, 'n spar mates thought he'd be a piece-a-cake. _Where they ever wrong! With big gloves 'n headgear, he rattled brains 'n dropped guys with his straight left; 'n if it was a war they wanted, he was quick to oblige._


_

yeah teddy atlas said he had real confidence issues, and that from an old hockey injury was scared to use his left alot, so according to teddy, he kept reassuring him and building his confidence up, because everyone thought it he was shit lol

eventually teddy said he started using his left and was more confident fighter, not until after teddy built his confidence and took him to every doctor in town saying his shoulder will be fine lol... then once he had finally got lalonde ready and up to scratch dave wolfe took lalonde away from atlast because he wouldnt lie on the stand for him about some fighter who was suing him... so teddy atlas was mad and got hold of gun and went to kill lalonde for his disloyalty, for all the effort he put into making him a decent fighter....

the only lalonde fight ive actually seen is the leonard fight..._


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> yeah teddy atlas said he had real confidence issues, and that from an old hockey injury was scared to use his left alot, so according to teddy, he kept reassuring him and building his confidence up, because everyone thought it he was shit lol
> 
> eventually teddy said he started using his left and was more confident fighter, not until after teddy built his confidence and took him to every doctor in town saying his shoulder will be fine lol... then once he had finally got lalonde ready and up to scratch dave wolfe took lalonde away from atlast because he wouldnt lie on the stand for him about some fighter who was suing him... so teddy atlas was mad and got hold of gun and went to kill lalonde for his disloyalty, for all the effort he put into making him a decent fighter....
> 
> the only lalonde fight ive actually seen is the leonard fight...


Your mention of the LaLonde-SRL fight, NM, brings this incident to mind.

If your not familiar with Tommy Gallagher, he's the closest thing to Popeye Doyle from the "FRENCH CONNECTION;" a larger-than-life, profane, mean as a junk-yard dog, opinionated, impatient, very loud, crude, brutally honest, very loyal, former undercover cop, and laugh riot 24-hours-a-day.

When we had our amateur team in Queens, Tommy was training Lalonde when he defended his light heavy title at Ceasar's Palace in Vegas against Sugar Ray Leonard. Tommy asked my wife 'n I 'n neighborhood friends ta join him.

Because Lalonde was the headliner, everybody in his entourage was given VIP treatment by the management of the hotel. The night before the fight we were ushered into a Pointer Sisters' show.

The room was a semi-circle of tiered wooden benches - pews. Nobody had their own table. Everybody was bunched together.

We were a party of about 15, but all around us were families looking like they just stepped out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

Tommy was in top form, cracking-everybody-up with one story after another. Somebody asked him: "Tommy did you ever fight out of the country as an amateur?"

As if he was trying to be heard over gym noise, Tommy shouted, "I was a young Irish Catholic kid and I never was no place. They asked me to fight for the U.S. team in Spain. So, when I got to Spain, I walked around&#8230;and there was, like, this little circus."

"There was a sign on one of the cages, and somebody told me it said: Anybody that could last a round with the bear would get $50. I never seen that much money...or a bear."

"So, I looked in the cage, and there's this big mop of fur on the floor. I figure: No problem; I'll knock this thing out."

"So, when I turned around to tell the guy I wanted to do it, the bear REACHED THROUGH THE BARS AND TRIED TO FUCK ME&#8230;IT'S A GOOD THING I WAS WEAR'N SHORTS!"

I doubled-over laughin'

The families fled in horror.


----------



## NoMas

john garfield said:


> Your mention of the LaLonde-SRL fight, NM, brings this incident to mind.
> 
> If your not familiar with Tommy Gallagher, he's the closest thing to Popeye Doyle from the "FRENCH CONNECTION;" a larger-than-life, profane, mean as a junk-yard dog, opinionated, impatient, very loud, crude, brutally honest, very loyal, former undercover cop, and laugh riot 24-hours-a-day.
> 
> When we had our amateur team in Queens, Tommy was training Lalonde when he defended his light heavy title at Ceasar's Palace in Vegas against Sugar Ray Leonard. Tommy asked my wife 'n I 'n neighborhood friends ta join him.
> 
> Because Lalonde was the headliner, everybody in his entourage was given VIP treatment by the management of the hotel. The night before the fight we were ushered into a Pointer Sisters' show.
> 
> The room was a semi-circle of tiered wooden benches - pews. Nobody had their own table. Everybody was bunched together.
> 
> We were a party of about 15, but all around us were families looking like they just stepped out of a Norman Rockwell painting.
> 
> Tommy was in top form, cracking-everybody-up with one story after another. Somebody asked him: "Tommy did you ever fight out of the country as an amateur?"
> 
> As if he was trying to be heard over gym noise, Tommy shouted, "I was a young Irish Catholic kid and I never was no place. They asked me to fight for the U.S. team in Spain. So, when I got to Spain, I walked around&#8230;and there was, like, this little circus."
> 
> "There was a sign on one of the cages, and somebody told me it said: Anybody that could last a round with the bear would get $50. I never seen that much money...or a bear."
> 
> "So, I looked in the cage, and there's this big mop of fur on the floor. I figure: No problem; I'll knock this thing out."
> 
> "So, when I turned around to tell the guy I wanted to do it, the bear REACHED THROUGH THE BARS AND TRIED TO FUCK ME&#8230;IT'S A GOOD THING I WAS WEAR'N SHORTS!"
> 
> I doubled-over laughin'
> 
> The families fled in horror.


hahahahha :rofl i think you might of told that story before, that rings a bell lol quality stuff!


----------



## Boxed Ears

john garfield said:


> *STREET FIGHTER WANTED OUT OF THE ARMY*
> 
> There was this guy I grew up with, Carlo - a loose-canon street guy.
> 
> Fought in alotta smokers... loved to mix-it-up for no reason... be the first guy to put the boots to somebody... did anything he damn pleased. We were in Basic Training together at Fort Dix, N.J.
> 
> Carlo HATED being told what do. He wanted out desperately.
> 
> There wasn't a day that went by that he wasn't scheming a way out: talking back, not listening or throwing his footlocker through a window.
> 
> Every night for WEEKS, he took-a-leak in his bunk and went to sleep in it.
> 
> One day he burst into the barracks, euphoric: "THEY'RE LETTING ME OUT! I FOXED'M... THEY THINK I'M CRAZY!"


:lol: Klinger has nothing on this man. (Not the artist)


----------



## john garfield

Boxed Ears said:


> :lol: Klinger has nothing on this man. (Not the artist)


Don't know who Klinger is, BE?


----------



## Boxed Ears

john garfield said:


> Don't know who Klinger is, BE?


Oh, John. :-(


----------



## john garfield

Boxed Ears said:


> Oh, John. :-(


Feel like an idiot, BE. Should've known. Thought you were referring to a poster


----------



## Robney

john garfield said:


> Feel like an idiot, BE. Should've known. Thought you were referring to a poster


In that case I'm an idiot too, because I thought the same thing 
On the other hand, I might as well be one...


----------



## john garfield

Robney said:


> *In that case I'm an idiot too, because I thought the same thing*
> On the other hand, I might as well be one...


Now I don't feel so bad, R


----------



## JamieC

What happened to this? Where are @john garfield and @Burt Brooks?


----------



## NoMas

yeah where you at jg?! we miss your stories brother


----------



## Boogle McDougal

@john garfield will be returning soon... bank on it.
@Burt Brooks too...


----------



## john garfield

Sam,

my email to you with the photo got bounced back. did i screw-up your address?

what follows is what I just got:

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

[email protected]
SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
host mx-eu.mail.am0.yahoodns.net [77.238.177.9]:
554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a yahoo.co.uk account ([email protected]) [0] - mta1029.mail.ird.yahoo.com

------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------
------ The body of the message is 5344251 characters long; only the first
------ 106496 or so are included here.

Return-path: <[email protected]>
Received: from [24.136.82.57] (helo=[10.0.1.2])
by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.67)
(envelope-from <[email protected]>)
id 1TZ1Nj-00031S-MO
for [email protected]; Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:30:16 -0500
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
From: John Garfield <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-30-1024015549
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936)
Subject: Here's the pic, Sam
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:29:29 -0800
References: <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936)

--Apple-Mail-30-1024015549
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


----------



## NoMas

wsup jg

its just


----------



## john garfield

NoMas said:


> wsup jg
> 
> its just
> 
> '[email protected]'


Does it include the mark to the left of pirubeez and to the right of uk, Sam?


----------



## NoMas

Yo, JG said He Be back fighting soon lads, here He is chilling having his misses and daughter running around after him! haha


----------



## JamieC

@john garfield @NoMas glad hes back! hope all is well!


----------



## NoMas

Daum aint heard from JG, hope Hes still recovering ok!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Yiddle

JG you got anything on allie stolz or al singer


----------



## john garfield

Yiddle said:


> JG you got anything on allie stolz or al singer


Just some vague stuff, Y. Allie Stolz was a Tippy Larkin master boxer type fighter with a fragile chin. As for Al Singer, I think he still has the record for holding the lightweight title the shortest amount of time.


----------



## Yiddle

john garfield said:


> Just some vague stuff, Y. Allie Stolz was a Tippy Larkin master boxer type fighter with a fragile chin. As for Al Singer, I think he still has the record for holding the lightweight title the shortest amount of time.


the things I remember about singer was seeing his running round the ring backwards fleeing from I think battlino. Also reading how if someone else had been lightweight world champ berg would of got a shot when making the weight was not completely killing him .something to do with the managers and boxers being chums and no-one wanted allegations about crooked fights so in effect robbing berg of being perhaps a double weight world champion

stolz I remember reading that he was a top boxer but there seems to be little about him in depth

just done some more reading and it seems singer had it appears a couple of backers one of which was a mobster and he was demanding too much money for a berg fight


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

Bump so new posters can feel the epicness.


----------



## Rebel-INS

Absolutely brilliant piece of writing, I also could listen to JG talk all day. His threads are legendary.


----------



## NoMas

@JG

When you gonn bless us with some new stories???


----------



## Trail

bump


----------



## Yiddle

@john garfield

jg have you got any stories about stillman himself (I forget stillmans real name Louis something I think it was)


----------



## ThrowTheDamnTowel

Spent the past few days at work going through the whole thread.what a life you must have lived John.some great stories.especially liked the stillmans gym.Olympic auditorium fight night. The interview with little poison,your wildcard stories.Plenty of guys I've looked up after reason about on here. On the downside I've become the worlds least productive worker and got a bollocking too.
have you had any meetings with Tyson?
You met many big names in the game that you couldn't stand?

Keep the stories coming John. It's like hopping in a time 
machine. Best thread on here


----------



## Screamin' Al Pacino

_*This thread is like eating an ice cream sundae off *_*Anita Ekberg*_*'s right titty! I love it, John! *_*Thanks!*


----------



## DB Cooper

Screamin' Al Pacino said:


> _*This thread is like eating an ice cream sundae off *_*Anita Ekberg*_*'s right titty! I love it, John! *_*Thanks!*


Based on that recommendation I will start reading this thread, and with exceedlingly high expectations.


----------



## Flea Man

The Spider said:


> Based on that recommendation I will start reading this thread, and with exceedlingly high expectations.


It's a great thread mate. JG is an exceptional writer, with so much experience he makes you feel like you're really there. Absolutely superb.


----------



## natonic

Screamin' Al Pacino said:


> _*This thread is like eating an ice cream sundae off *_*Anita Ekberg*_*'s right titty! I love it, John! *_*Thanks!*


She's gotta great Ass!!! And you got your head all the way up it!!! And I'll take that recommendation and spend an evening soon reading this thread.


----------



## Phantom

JG was/is an invaluable contributor to these boxing forums...wish he'd reconsider and come to CHB.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

Think this deserves a bump with the recent news of JG's passing. Rest in peace.


----------



## Danimal

Great article by a great writer.


----------



## Yiddle

Please keep this a sticky


----------



## Lunny

Rest in peace, JG.


----------



## Luf

Rip


----------



## NoMas

Cant see this thread ever being topped!!! RIP JG...


----------



## Jdempsey85

Really enjoyed his tales RIP


----------



## billy boy balbo

one of my favourites was


> I was in PJ Clarke's, a N.Y. pub for the sports crowd. LaMotta could be found at the bar daily with his co-writer on RAGING BULL.
> 
> LaMotta was relaxing with his back against the bar -- trademark stogie in his mouth. A sweaty little guy in an ill-fitting suit came through the front door, spotted Jake 'n made b-line for him.
> 
> The little guy planted himself in front of LaMotta, regaling him -- and all in the bar -- with how he saw Jake KO some guy in New Orleans, demonstrating by wind-milling punches furiously...much too close to LaMotta's face.
> 
> LaMotta didn't move a muscle or change expression. The guy's swings an eyelash away.
> 
> Sure enough, one landed flush on the cigar -- flattened it against LaMotta's face, like Wile e Coyote.
> 
> After a long pause, Jake looked heavenward: "Why me?"


----------



## Capaedia

I read all 40 pages in one day and enjoyed every line. My non-fan girlfriend was able to really enjoy the ones she caught a glimpse of. Such was his talent as a writer.

RIP John Garfield. You will be missed


----------



## doug.ie

r.i.p.

i only found out today and i am gutted here.....i was in touch with him a lot on and off the forums.....gutted.


----------



## Boxed Ears

I'm thinking about ole Joe just now. I hope he got every bit as much from the sharing of himself here as we got out of it. I mean, I hope the reaction made it worth it for him. All the time and effort was considerable, even for someone who loves to do the sharing.


----------



## jorodz

Boxed Ears said:


> I'm thinking about ole Joe just now. I hope he got every bit as much from the sharing of himself here as we got out of it. I mean, I hope the reaction made it worth it for him. All the time and effort was considerable, even for someone who loves to do the sharing.


this is my first time on this thread and i can't wait to read it all. JG seemed genuinely humbled by the praise he received on here. At the very least, he knew how much he was appreciated


----------



## lupa

john garfield said:


> *REFLECTIONS OF PACQUIAO*
> 
> First saw Pac when he came to Wild Card in L.A. after destroying Ledwaba, who looked a world-beater at 122, but Pac was only a hot item to boxing insiders and gym rats. Most fans couldn't say Pacquiao, let alone spell it.
> 
> He was in his 20s then, more child than man/child. Understood 'n spoke no English, but had the most engaging grin, 'n gracious nature. He shared a grungy single room at a nearby motel with Gerry Penalosa, his friend and mentor, living on greasy fast foods. Their days were regimented: roadwork at the crack of dawn, running the seamy streets of Hollywood; training at WC twice a day and going to church on Sundays. The hard-partier hadn't surfaced at that time.
> 
> Pac had boundless energy.
> 
> With his huge calves, he sprang around the ring sparring, like a kangaroo.
> 
> What he threw looked like arm punches, which I told him, and he giggled, "but they keep falling down," he said. Still at Jr. feather --with big gloves -- he sparked sparring partners, some as heavy as welters, with that left that had a mind of it's own.
> 
> Even though i spoke no Tagolag or Spanish, we got along well-- mostly with improvised sign language. Think his people spoke-up for me, realizing I had no ax to grind or wanted any perks, just observing 'n reporting best I could.
> 
> Manny and his team always made me welcome', whether it was at meals, all the pre-fight hoopla, in his suite in Vegas, at the fights, 'n on the Team Pac bus back to L.A. (deafeningly quiet after the last Marques fight)
> 
> Saw him last before the third Marquez fight. The delightful boy had transitioned to man; years of life experience in his eyes and the price on his face. The cherub had become Zorba the Greek.


Great stuff here:cheers


----------



## SamO408

Readin through JGs stories, man I miss him


----------



## Trail

SamO408 said:


> Readin through JGs stories, man I miss him


The man was a legend @SamO408. I was fortunate to have regular contact by email with him, his stories of fight nights were unbelievable. He would never comment too much on a fight if he wasn't there/ringside, and hell he was at some classics. Joe's stories of Stillman's gym, the 5th St Gym and the legends he trained alongside was the kind of stuff I would have died for.


----------



## DB Cooper

Huge loss. I remember reading and enjoying JG's informed opinions. RIP Champ.


----------



## Theron

Is there any way to see the stories and questions he answered over at ESB?


----------



## Duo

Trail said:


> He would never comment too much on a fight if he wasn't there/ringside


 @Trail, those of us familiar with JG's literary output, like you and I, know that while Joe expressly claimed not to discuss what he did not witness in person, that self-imposed restriction on his own comments was actually not strictly set in stone.

While he repeatedly claimed to be "just a fan" (blatant BS, as he had far too much of a competitive background in amateur boxing to be that self-effacing), he was more than capable of analyzing and breaking down action footage brilliantly. In many ways, I consider one brief article he wrote with mostly short sentences to be his most fascinating piece of work on boxing history, where he melds his assessment of a then virtually unseen legend on film against his own eyewitness experiences to drop single mention bombs along the way.

After reading this piece from September 2005, the guy whose career and footage I found myself looking at far more closely wasn't Joe's main subject, but that of another forgotten great he only name drops once, two-thirds of the way through, and wonder who besides Joe could have ever compared Burley to _Le Bombardier Marocain_. I'm hard pressed to imagine anybody else who could have threaded a comparison stringing Burley with both the Casablanca Clouter and the Black Uhlan of the Rhine:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joerein/charley_burley.html

Given more time, I would have humorously countered his badgering of me to start up a blog by pestering him to do more blending of his experiences in boxing with vintage footage of historic events he was not in attendance to witness live. I wonder what additional name bombs he might have dropped from his first hand reminisces if we'd gotten him to link rare footage of legends he never saw before with those he knew and saw in action live.

Joe's daughter @Kimley deserves enormous appreciation from all of us for overcoming her father's long stubborn resistance to finally become computer literate and get online to become known to us around the world. Mr. Rein, you raised a lovely daughter.

If Kimley could break down Joe's reluctance to join us all here, then I'm sure, given time, we could have likewise prevailed on him to loosen self imposed restrictions limiting himself only to fights and fighters he personally saw and knew. If he could name bomb single mentions of Greb, Walker, John L., and Schmeling among fighters he never met or saw in action, through a single brief pithy article about yet another legend he never met witnessed in action himself, what other unexpected names might he have uniquely popped out in additional such contributions?

Only a matter of time before we got him to relax and open up more, but I'll flip that coin and be thankful to want what guys like Joe and @Burt have already given us.

Burt's brought some valuable differences from JG to the table. He came on board at the former ESB Classic years ago with detailed knowledge of Fitzie Fitzpatrick for example, who JG had never even heard of (until learning about the Irish Blockbuster for the first time from a very stunned yours truly).

On New Year's Day last year at the former ESB Classic, @McGrain created a thread asking if Floyd Patterson was robbed against Joey Maxim. Burt said he thought Maxim-Patterson could have gone either way, exactly one minute after Joe submitted his third post on that same thread, where JG unequivocally asserted in his first two posts there that Joey schooled Floyd. The good Mr. Bienstock and the good Mr. Rein repeated their divergent opinions on Maxim-Patterson more than once online, and posted alternate views a few other memorable times on other bouts witnessed by the two of them, interesting opinions of contrast between these two fine gentlemen.

Maxim-Patterson gets a good spotlight though because of the extant kinescope of that broadcast, allowing us today to view something of what they were attending. (Funnily, a few ignorant dim-bulbs at the former ESB Classic questioned Burt's authenticity, and suggested he was plagiarizing JG. Nobody who remembers Burt's arrival at ESB, rapid learning and evolution of his distinctive posting style from text walls to a more readable format, and contributions to threads like last year's Maxim-Patterson discussion ever questioned his authenticity though. We knew right away Burt's the real deal, and of a distinct Great Depression/Greatest Generation raised vintage from the WW II and Atomic Age bottled JG. I know New Yorkers from both their age groups, and my father's right between their ages, so it wasn't hard for me to distinguish when and where they came from by their syntax and sensibilities. My mother's older best friend is online, was a Bobbysoxer in prewar NYC, and her email content reflects her origins.)

:cheersto JG and BB, and always a worthy thread to recharge with fresh activity for drawing new fans to JG's boxing legacy.


----------



## Trail

Theron said:


> Is there any way to see the stories and questions he answered over at ESB?


A lot of the posts Joe put on ESB are here in this thread, I resurrected a lot of them, I had a lot more but due to Hewlett Packard not being that good with computers I lost a lot. I still have a few emails of stuff he sent me answering questions posed.


----------



## Trail

Duo said:


> @Trail, those of us familiar with JG's literary output, like you and I, know that while Joe expressly claimed not to discuss what he did not witness in person, that self-imposed restriction on his own comments was actually not strictly set in stone.
> 
> While he repeatedly claimed to be "just a fan" (blatant BS, as he had far too much of a competitive background in amateur boxing to be that self-effacing), he was more than capable of analyzing and breaking down action footage brilliantly. In many ways, I consider one brief article he wrote with mostly short sentences to be his most fascinating piece of work on boxing history, where he melds his assessment of a then virtually unseen legend on film against his own eyewitness experiences to drop single mention bombs along the way.
> 
> After reading this piece from September 2005, the guy whose career and footage I found myself looking at far more closely wasn't Joe's main subject, but that of another forgotten great he only name drops once, two-thirds of the way through, and wonder who besides Joe could have ever compared Burley to _Le Bombardier Marocain_. I'm hard pressed to imagine anybody else who could have threaded a comparison stringing Burley with both the Casablanca Clouter and the Black Uhlan of the Rhine:
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~joerein/charley_burley.html
> 
> Given more time, I would have humorously countered his badgering of me to start up a blog by pestering him to do more blending of his experiences in boxing with vintage footage of historic events he was not in attendance to witness live. I wonder what additional name bombs he might have dropped from his first hand reminisces if we'd gotten him to link rare footage of legends he never saw before with those he knew and saw in action live.
> 
> Joe's daughter @Kimley deserves enormous appreciation from all of us for overcoming her father's long stubborn resistance to finally become computer literate and get online to become known to us around the world. Mr. Rein, you raised a lovely daughter.
> 
> If Kimley could break down Joe's reluctance to join us all here, then I'm sure, given time, we could have likewise prevailed on him to loosen self imposed restrictions limiting himself only to fights and fighters he personally saw and knew. If he could name bomb single mentions of Greb, Walker, John L., and Schmeling among fighters he never met or saw in action, through a single brief pithy article about yet another legend he never met witnessed in action himself, what other unexpected names might he have uniquely popped out in additional such contributions?
> 
> Only a matter of time before we got him to relax and open up more, but I'll flip that coin and be thankful to want what guys like Joe and @Burt have already given us.
> 
> Burt's brought some valuable differences from JG to the table. He came on board at the former ESB Classic years ago with detailed knowledge of Fitzie Fitzpatrick for example, who JG had never even heard of (until learning about the Irish Blockbuster for the first time from a very stunned yours truly).
> 
> On New Year's Day last year at the former ESB Classic, @McGrain created a thread asking if Floyd Patterson was robbed against Joey Maxim. Burt said he thought Maxim-Patterson could have gone either way, exactly one minute after Joe submitted his third post on that same thread, where JG unequivocally asserted in his first two posts there that Joey schooled Floyd. The good Mr. Bienstock and the good Mr. Rein repeated their divergent opinions on Maxim-Patterson more than once online, and posted alternate views a few other memorable times on other bouts witnessed by the two of them, interesting opinions of contrast between these two fine gentlemen.
> 
> Maxim-Patterson gets a good spotlight though because of the extant kinescope of that broadcast, allowing us today to view something of what they were attending. (Funnily, a few ignorant dim-bulbs at the former ESB Classic questioned Burt's authenticity, and suggested he was plagiarizing JG. Nobody who remembers Burt's arrival at ESB, rapid learning and evolution of his distinctive posting style from text walls to a more readable format, and contributions to threads like last year's Maxim-Patterson discussion ever questioned his authenticity though. We knew right away Burt's the real deal, and of a distinct Great Depression/Greatest Generation raised vintage from the WW II and Atomic Age bottled JG. I know New Yorkers from both their age groups, and my father's right between their ages, so it wasn't hard for me to distinguish when and where they came from by their syntax and sensibilities. My mother's older best friend is online, was a Bobbysoxer in prewar NYC, and her email content reflects her origins.)
> 
> :cheersto JG and BB, and always a worthy thread to recharge with fresh activity for drawing new fans to JG's boxing legacy.


That's a damn good post @Duo! We somehow have to keep Joe's legacy alive...which is why I'm glad you and @Theron have once again jumped in on this thread.


----------



## Trail

Duo said:


> @Trail, those of us familiar with JG's literary output, like you and I, know that while Joe expressly claimed not to discuss what he did not witness in person, that self-imposed restriction on his own comments was actually not strictly set in stone.
> 
> While he repeatedly claimed to be "just a fan" (blatant BS, as he had far too much of a competitive background in amateur boxing to be that self-effacing), he was more than capable of analyzing and breaking down action footage brilliantly. In many ways, I consider one brief article he wrote with mostly short sentences to be his most fascinating piece of work on boxing history, where he melds his assessment of a then virtually unseen legend on film against his own eyewitness experiences to drop single mention bombs along the way.
> 
> After reading this piece from September 2005, the guy whose career and footage I found myself looking at far more closely wasn't Joe's main subject, but that of another forgotten great he only name drops once, two-thirds of the way through, and wonder who besides Joe could have ever compared Burley to _Le Bombardier Marocain_. I'm hard pressed to imagine anybody else who could have threaded a comparison stringing Burley with both the Casablanca Clouter and the Black Uhlan of the Rhine:
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~joerein/charley_burley.html
> 
> Given more time, I would have humorously countered his badgering of me to start up a blog by pestering him to do more blending of his experiences in boxing with vintage footage of historic events he was not in attendance to witness live. I wonder what additional name bombs he might have dropped from his first hand reminisces if we'd gotten him to link rare footage of legends he never saw before with those he knew and saw in action live.
> 
> Joe's daughter @Kimley deserves enormous appreciation from all of us for overcoming her father's long stubborn resistance to finally become computer literate and get online to become known to us around the world. Mr. Rein, you raised a lovely daughter.
> 
> If Kimley could break down Joe's reluctance to join us all here, then I'm sure, given time, we could have likewise prevailed on him to loosen self imposed restrictions limiting himself only to fights and fighters he personally saw and knew. If he could name bomb single mentions of Greb, Walker, John L., and Schmeling among fighters he never met or saw in action, through a single brief pithy article about yet another legend he never met witnessed in action himself, what other unexpected names might he have uniquely popped out in additional such contributions?
> 
> Only a matter of time before we got him to relax and open up more, but I'll flip that coin and be thankful to want what guys like Joe and @Burt have already given us.
> 
> Burt's brought some valuable differences from JG to the table. He came on board at the former ESB Classic years ago with detailed knowledge of Fitzie Fitzpatrick for example, who JG had never even heard of (until learning about the Irish Blockbuster for the first time from a very stunned yours truly).
> 
> On New Year's Day last year at the former ESB Classic, @McGrain created a thread asking if Floyd Patterson was robbed against Joey Maxim. Burt said he thought Maxim-Patterson could have gone either way, exactly one minute after Joe submitted his third post on that same thread, where JG unequivocally asserted in his first two posts there that Joey schooled Floyd. The good Mr. Bienstock and the good Mr. Rein repeated their divergent opinions on Maxim-Patterson more than once online, and posted alternate views a few other memorable times on other bouts witnessed by the two of them, interesting opinions of contrast between these two fine gentlemen.
> 
> Maxim-Patterson gets a good spotlight though because of the extant kinescope of that broadcast, allowing us today to view something of what they were attending. (Funnily, a few ignorant dim-bulbs at the former ESB Classic questioned Burt's authenticity, and suggested he was plagiarizing JG. Nobody who remembers Burt's arrival at ESB, rapid learning and evolution of his distinctive posting style from text walls to a more readable format, and contributions to threads like last year's Maxim-Patterson discussion ever questioned his authenticity though. We knew right away Burt's the real deal, and of a distinct Great Depression/Greatest Generation raised vintage from the WW II and Atomic Age bottled JG. I know New Yorkers from both their age groups, and my father's right between their ages, so it wasn't hard for me to distinguish when and where they came from by their syntax and sensibilities. My mother's older best friend is online, was a Bobbysoxer in prewar NYC, and her email content reflects her origins.)
> 
> :cheersto JG and BB, and always a worthy thread to recharge with fresh activity for drawing new fans to JG's boxing legacy.


That's a damn good post @Duo! We somehow have to keep Joe's legacy alive...which is why I'm glad you and @Theron have once again jumped in on this thread.


----------



## Trail

Duo said:


> @Trail, those of us familiar with JG's literary output, like you and I, know that while Joe expressly claimed not to discuss what he did not witness in person, that self-imposed restriction on his own comments was actually not strictly set in stone.
> 
> While he repeatedly claimed to be "just a fan" (blatant BS, as he had far too much of a competitive background in amateur boxing to be that self-effacing), he was more than capable of analyzing and breaking down action footage brilliantly. In many ways, I consider one brief article he wrote with mostly short sentences to be his most fascinating piece of work on boxing history, where he melds his assessment of a then virtually unseen legend on film against his own eyewitness experiences to drop single mention bombs along the way.
> 
> After reading this piece from September 2005, the guy whose career and footage I found myself looking at far more closely wasn't Joe's main subject, but that of another forgotten great he only name drops once, two-thirds of the way through, and wonder who besides Joe could have ever compared Burley to _Le Bombardier Marocain_. I'm hard pressed to imagine anybody else who could have threaded a comparison stringing Burley with both the Casablanca Clouter and the Black Uhlan of the Rhine:
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~joerein/charley_burley.html
> 
> Given more time, I would have humorously countered his badgering of me to start up a blog by pestering him to do more blending of his experiences in boxing with vintage footage of historic events he was not in attendance to witness live. I wonder what additional name bombs he might have dropped from his first hand reminisces if we'd gotten him to link rare footage of legends he never saw before with those he knew and saw in action live.
> 
> Joe's daughter @Kimley deserves enormous appreciation from all of us for overcoming her father's long stubborn resistance to finally become computer literate and get online to become known to us around the world. Mr. Rein, you raised a lovely daughter.
> 
> If Kimley could break down Joe's reluctance to join us all here, then I'm sure, given time, we could have likewise prevailed on him to loosen self imposed restrictions limiting himself only to fights and fighters he personally saw and knew. If he could name bomb single mentions of Greb, Walker, John L., and Schmeling among fighters he never met or saw in action, through a single brief pithy article about yet another legend he never met witnessed in action himself, what other unexpected names might he have uniquely popped out in additional such contributions?
> 
> Only a matter of time before we got him to relax and open up more, but I'll flip that coin and be thankful to want what guys like Joe and @Burt have already given us.
> 
> Burt's brought some valuable differences from JG to the table. He came on board at the former ESB Classic years ago with detailed knowledge of Fitzie Fitzpatrick for example, who JG had never even heard of (until learning about the Irish Blockbuster for the first time from a very stunned yours truly).
> 
> On New Year's Day last year at the former ESB Classic, @McGrain created a thread asking if Floyd Patterson was robbed against Joey Maxim. Burt said he thought Maxim-Patterson could have gone either way, exactly one minute after Joe submitted his third post on that same thread, where JG unequivocally asserted in his first two posts there that Joey schooled Floyd. The good Mr. Bienstock and the good Mr. Rein repeated their divergent opinions on Maxim-Patterson more than once online, and posted alternate views a few other memorable times on other bouts witnessed by the two of them, interesting opinions of contrast between these two fine gentlemen.
> 
> Maxim-Patterson gets a good spotlight though because of the extant kinescope of that broadcast, allowing us today to view something of what they were attending. (Funnily, a few ignorant dim-bulbs at the former ESB Classic questioned Burt's authenticity, and suggested he was plagiarizing JG. Nobody who remembers Burt's arrival at ESB, rapid learning and evolution of his distinctive posting style from text walls to a more readable format, and contributions to threads like last year's Maxim-Patterson discussion ever questioned his authenticity though. We knew right away Burt's the real deal, and of a distinct Great Depression/Greatest Generation raised vintage from the WW II and Atomic Age bottled JG. I know New Yorkers from both their age groups, and my father's right between their ages, so it wasn't hard for me to distinguish when and where they came from by their syntax and sensibilities. My mother's older best friend is online, was a Bobbysoxer in prewar NYC, and her email content reflects her origins.)
> 
> :cheersto JG and BB, and always a worthy thread to recharge with fresh activity for drawing new fans to JG's boxing legacy.


That's a damn good post @Duo! We somehow have to keep Joe's legacy alive...which is why I'm glad you and @Theron have once again jumped in on this thread.


----------



## Trail

Fucking hell, website's fucked, sort it @Jay.


----------



## Duo

Trail said:


> Fucking hell, website's fucked, sort it @Jay.


Y'know what @T? Looks like @Jay and crew got us through the down time with JG's content and original CHB post contributions intact.

I hadn't been posting long when the great ESB Crash of 2007 wiped those boards clean of all previously extant member contributions, and we all remember what the closure of the old CHB Lounge did to all those friendly thread questions and posts JG created there during the last several months of his life. Yeah, CHB's been down a few times, but always resurfaced intact. I'll take it! JG RINGSIDE remains right here.

As Mr. Rein himself said back in post #26 , "So, grab your buds by the scruff of the neck. Keep the feedback comin'" Damn straight!


----------



## Trail

Duo said:


> Y'know what @T? Looks like @Jay and crew got us through the down time with JG's content and original CHB post contributions intact.
> 
> I hadn't been posting long when the great ESB Crash of 2007 wiped those boards clean of all previously extant member contributions, and we all remember what the closure of the old CHB Lounge did to all those friendly thread questions and posts JG created there during the last several months of his life. Yeah, CHB's been down a few times, but always resurfaced intact. I'll take it! JG RINGSIDE remains right here.
> 
> As Mr. Rein himself said back in post #26 , "So, grab your buds by the scruff of the neck. Keep the feedback comin'" Damn straight!


I gave all the content to Jay and thread starter, I saved it all to a word document long long before the crash (all of the stuff I have is ESB stuff as he was never bothered for posting on here) and long before Mr Rein died. I still have the document here and also a load of emails Joe sent me before he passed. I was in regular contact with him by email, and had many a good email chat with him. I wasn't fortunate enough to meet with him @DobyZhee was, he met him in Vegas at one of the fights they both attended.

I remember Joe's first scare before he passed away, he sent me a picture of him in his hospital bed that his daughter had taken, he looked in a real bad way, but he pulled through...and he was in contact with me close to his passing away. The amount of people I've put onto his work is countless, from people on ESB to people on here, to friends of mine, to my family members who enjoy boxing. The man was a legend. Spread his word...

edit: @Jay and his cohorts are legends for saving the site (and Joe's work).


----------



## Trail

Found this on an email Joe sent me - it was about what they did to a gym bully when Joe was training...
_
Here's the blindfold story, Trail

As 4th 'n 5th graders, we all played basketball at the local church gym, and also had a weekly free-for-all in the church ring, refereed by the priest. The ground rules were:

Each kid -- maybe 10 or 15 -- was blindfolded and held an empty soup can with a marble in it 'n wore a 16-ounce glove (bigger than we were) on the other. When the bell rang, the kids shook the can with the marble 'n swung furiously at any sound. The last one standing was the winner.

Word got to the priest that a really big kid was bullying the rest during the week.

Right before the bell, he removed all blindfolds but the bullies'. We beat the hell outta that kid.
_


----------



## wodawoda

Good post!


----------



## thehook13

JG sent me over a link to many of his articles before he died. His writing was so rich in experience and style. One of a kind, JG.


----------



## SamO408

GilbertFus said:


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 @Bogotazo Another spammin ass muthafucker


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c

Had to give this thread another read.

RIP JG.


----------



## Trail

Chacal said:


> Had to give this thread another read.
> 
> RIP JG.


Have a look at Springs Toledo's Gods of War book. Springs was a huuuuuuge JG fan.


----------



## Trail

Ploughing through the JG thread again, absolutely flawless...I miss that fucker.


----------



## Trail

Three years today since Joe left us. RIP Joe. Gone but not forgotten.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/feature-articles/17557-joe


----------



## BoxingAnalyst

RIP the OG.


----------



## Chinny

Trail said:


> Three years today since Joe left us. RIP Joe. Gone but not forgotten.
> 
> http://www.thesweetscience.com/feature-articles/17557-joe


Absolutely right mate.


----------



## NoMas

I really loved his writing style, reading his stories you felt like you were in the same time frame or maybe sitting in a bar next to him in the 30s...

He seemed a great guy and was always a pleasure talking to him... 

RIP Joe!!!


----------



## Trail

NoMas said:


> I really loved his writing style, reading his stories you felt like you were in the same time frame or maybe sitting in a bar next to him in the 30s...
> 
> He seemed a great guy and was always a pleasure talking to him...
> 
> RIP Joe!!!


Absolutely spot on.


----------



## Trail

NoMas said:


> I really loved his writing style, reading his stories you felt like you were in the same time frame or maybe sitting in a bar next to him in the 30s...
> 
> He seemed a great guy and was always a pleasure talking to him...
> 
> RIP Joe!!!


Just this afternoon I was watching a few old fights, took me back to when I used to quiz Joe on a daily basis, asking him about how he saw this fight, that fight, or the other fight. I wanted to quiz him about Ali-Norton II and III this afternoon, unfortunately the Champ wasn't there. Still can't believe he was ringside for all the Four Kings fights, Castillo-Corrales first fight, Pac had him aboard for the JMM third fight...and he was ringside for all the Gatti-Ward fights, trained aside all the greats...we can only dream of stuff he's seen...I fucking love Springs Toledo's Joe article. It has been updated since in IN THE CHEAP SEATS... I urge you to buy a copy of that book. Here's the sweetscience article...though this has been posted before. Enjoy once again.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/feature-articles/17557-joe


----------



## NoMas

Trail said:


> Just this afternoon I was watching a few old fights, took me back to when I used to quiz Joe on a daily basis, asking him about how he saw this fight, that fight, or the other fight. I wanted to quiz him about Ali-Norton II and III this afternoon, unfortunately the Champ wasn't there. Still can't believe he was ringside for all the Four Kings fights, Castillo-Corrales first fight, Pac had him aboard for the JMM third fight...and he was ringside for all the Gatti-Ward fights, trained aside all the greats...we can only dream of stuff he's seen...I fucking love Springs Toledo's Joe article. It has been updated since in IN THE CHEAP SEATS... I urge you to buy a copy of that book. Here's the sweetscience article...though this has been posted before. Enjoy once again.
> 
> http://www.thesweetscience.com/feature-articles/17557-joe


Really is the stuff of dreams mate... Seemed JG had time for everyone, I'll take a look at that article later brother... Also what and where is the Cheap Seats???

Edit: I see its Springs Toledo's book??? haha my bad I dont think Ive heard of him before atsch I'll check the book out for sure... I spent hours back in the day reading this thread too!!!


----------



## Trail

NoMas said:


> Really is the stuff of dreams mate... Seemed JG had time for everyone, I'll take a look at that article later brother... Also what and where is the Cheap Seats???
> 
> Edit: I see its Springs Toledo's book??? haha my bad I dont think Ive heard of him before atsch I'll check the book out for sure... I spent hours back in the day reading this thread too!!!


See also Springs' Gods of War book. Both are fucking good. He's got another almost completed....about Murderers' Row boxers.


----------



## Trail

Four years tomorrow since we lost a friend. Joe Rein. @johngarfield RIP

http://www.thesweetscience.com/feature-articles/17557-joe


----------



## NoMas

RIP Big man...


----------



## Vic

Fuuuuuck 4 years already !


----------



## Jdempsey85

Check out the tshirt on the guy sparring last


----------



## Trail

Jdempsey85 said:


> Check out the tshirt on the guy sparring last


Jesus.


----------



## Trail

Five years on Wednesday since Joe left us.

RIP Sir.

http://tss.ib.tv/featured-articles/17557-joe


----------



## Scalinatella

Joe Rein's birthday was yesterday, March 4. If you haven't already, you should post something in his memory at TBRB's website. Here: http://www.tbrb.org/in-memoriam/


----------



## Trail

Scalinatella said:


> Joe Rein's birthday was yesterday, March 4. If you haven't already, you should post something in his memory at TBRB's website. Here: http://www.tbrb.org/in-memoriam/


Done it Springs.

Ian W, we communicate by email.


----------



## Scalinatella

Yes you did. Thank you. Do him a favor and encourage others on these forums to do the same. The link makes it easy.


----------



## Trail

Six years tomorrow.

Gone but not forgotten. RIP Joe Rein.

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-boxing-articles-boxing-news-videos-rankings-and-results/17557-joe

Thanks to Springs Toledo for what he wrote, below.

_I won't let him die. None of us should._

*Joe*

Published
6 years ago on November 13, 2013

By Springs Toledo

_Stillman's Gym, 1947. _Rocky Graziano was cutting figure eights in front of a drumming speed bag with a Chesterfield perched on his lip. It was lit, but that was damn-near expected at smoky Stillman's-it was damn-near appreciated too, given the stench the joint was famous for. An eleven-year-old boy sauntered up to the fighter wearing a matching sneer. His name was Joe Rein and he was playing hooky. After a while, Graziano looked down.

"Why ain't you in school?" he said.

"-Why ain't you!"

Graziano, Joe recalled, "roared with laughter" and hoisted him up on his shoulders. He was introduced to a gallery of kings and contenders, and before the stars were out of his eyes he was on a first-name basis with all of them.

Jake LaMotta was introduced to him by Willie Pep. "Kid, you have hands like mine," LaMotta said. "You gotta learn to go to the body." Small-handed and short-armed Joe was taught to slip rights and lefts on both sides to land unexpected counters. "Most fighters are predictable," LaMotta said.

Some of what Joe learned was anything but predictable. Gym wisdom warns against crossing your feet in the ring though Sugar Ray Robinson himself told him that was a myth. Fighters "should cross their feet sometimes," he said, "to move more easily." Robinson also showed him a trick to maximize the power of the left hook. He positioned the kid, who was a right-hander, into the southpaw position to throw a _right_ hook, doubling it up to the body and head. He instructed him to throw his left hook the same way, "as it comes," and not to worry about it being textbook. His own left hook was really a half-uppercut, Robinson said, and a slow motion YouTube review of just what it was that tipped over Gene Fullmer affirms it.
Joe "Old Bones" Brown kept the wolves away. When managers came around looking for meat to feed their prospects, Brown wouldn't let the kid in the ring. "He wouldn't let me get smashed at Stillman's," said Joe. Brown thus did a favor to posterity; he helped preserve the golden memory of someone destined to become the golden era's greatest ambassador in the 21st century.

Sixty-six years after he was introduced to the greatest fighters who ever lived, Joe was logging-on and introducing them to a generation of fans whose parents weren't even born in 1947 and who lived thousands of miles from the site of long-gone Stillman's Gym. Joe was a regular on eastsideboxing.com's forums since August 2004. He posted 5,919 times under the name of a movie star from way back named "John Garfield."

It was no idle choice. Garfield, born in New York City, was a corner kid who found refuge in boxing and friends in low places. He made his bones in local theatre troupes, moved to Hollywood, and took New York with him. In other words, he never went soft. Garfield reached his peak of fame during the Red Scare and was called to testify before the House Committee on Un-American Activities in 1951. He refused to name names and his career took a dive because of it. Joe idolized Garfield for this working class loyalty, for that old-school cool.

In 1952, Joe was fifteen and feeling it. "Makes me cringe at whatta A-hole I mustta looked like, Springs," he said. "Amboy Dukes to my toes, DA haircut, Tony Curtis spit curl; high rise, chartreuse pegged pants (12-inch cuffs, 32-inch knees -think MC Hammer), saddle stitching, and pistol pockets. I walked two blocks before my legs moved!"

John Garfield had a fatal heart attack on May 21st 1952 and was buried twenty miles north of the city in Westchester Hills. But Joe wouldn't let him die.

He sent me a publicity shot of himself doing his best Garfield impression in 1958 and another altogether different one in a gym in the 1970s. "You're Lon Chaney," I quipped about his different looks. He replied: "In '60, Springs, I worked on a low-budget anti-Castro feature in Florida with Lon Chaney, Jr. and Jake LaMotta. Chaney was such a falling-down drunk, he never left the set after a day's shoot, just collapsed in bushes with a bottle, and that's the way we found him the next morning." I thought that was something until he told me he was flashed by Jane Wyatt of "Father Knows Best" fame. The first time I watched _Blast of Silence_ (1961), an obscure film noir by fellow Brooklynite and Rein-look-a-like Allen Baron, I called him up excitedly. Joe must have thought I was cute. "I worked on that film!" he said and reduced me yet again to stunned silence. Another time I told him I was a sucker for easy-listening music and Ed Ames' "My Cup Runneth Over." His response? "Studied with Ed at the John Cassavetes Theater workshop in New York in the early 60s."

Joe was never boastful, never a name-dropper; and, like his idol, he never compromised a trust. He would share stories matter-of-factly and at times with a twinkle in his eye because he knew they were sure to entertain.

Entertainment was on his mind when he moved out to Los Angeles in the 1970s. Like Garfield, he took New York with him. He produced commercials for an advertisement agency, taught writing classes at UCLA, and kept his hand in boxing. He was a fixture at the Wild Card Gym and wrote fly-on-the-wall articles for _The Sweet Science_ that are classics. He sat ringside for Manny Pacquiao's debut at the MGM Grand in 2001 and became one of his earliest American believers. By his own admission, he "needed Cruise shoes to be taller than Manny" but he became for him what he was for so many others -an encourager. Ten years later, Joe had been diagnosed with cancer and didn't get around much anymore. Pacquiao found out and reached in to ask him to sit ringside at Pacquiao-Marquez III, again at the MGM Grand. "There are a million people banging on his door," Joe said. "It's just amazing."

Joe always could spot talent. "You've got the goods," he'd say. When he said it to me in 2009, I listened. I sat down and typed an essay spurred more by his confidence than my own, and sent it to him. He took it like it was the start of something grand and brought it to Michael Woods, editor-in-chief of _TheSweetScience,_ and with that, my life got better. The second boxing essay I wrote was a tribute to my new friend's golden memories. I called it "1949: The Perfect Storm of Pugilism." I should have called it "A Love Letter to Joe Rein."

My encourager never let up. "Words are precious to me," he would say, and barring a hospital stay, he never failed to call or email within hours after my latest essay was published. I grew to rely on it. I went and bought a vintage desk phone just to hear him better when he called. "You rolled-up-sleeves 'n settled for nothing but your best," he'd tell me. When I wrote "The Fourth God of War" I told him that my choice for background music was "The Summer of '42" on a loop. Joe wrote back: "'The Summer of '42' has special meaning for me: The author, Herman Raucher, was my youth-camp counselor in '47." I threw up my hands. The last fight I covered thrilled him ("like a Friday night in the 40s when Graziano headlined the ol' MSG&#8230; Bless you!"), which thrilled me.

He was the consigliere in my ear for every major decision I've made over the past five years. Despite being housebound, Joe was a guiding spirit behind the _TransnationalBoxingRankings _and helped navigate what he called "shark-infested waters." When Teddy Atlas mentioned my name and endorsed the new rankings on _Friday Night Fights_ last August, Joe said he "nearly broke the lease cheering so loud&#8230;"

I told him he'd always be Seneca to my Nero. "Who ya callin' Sanka?" he shot back.
He loved my 2010 Camaro. Two years ago I sent an email to members of the Boxing Writers Association of America encouraging them to read my series on Cocoa Kid and vote him into the International Boxing Hall of Fame. On the subject line of the email to Joe I wrote "A Camaro for a vote for Cocoa Kid." His reply: "That you think you can bribe me is OFFENSIVE! Ya can take the Camaro 'n STICK IT in my garage." He got a package from Boston on his next birthday. "Told my wife ta run if the package is ticking," he wrote back. He opened it to find a matchbox-sized Camaro. He roared. "Gonna get a thimble of water," he said, "and polish it up."

My mother went in for high-risk surgery soon after that and Joe was right there, a loyal friend. Knowing I'm Catholic, he sent along a prayer to Mother Mary. "Your mom's gonna be OK," he said. When he spoke, I listened, and as usual, he was right.

Joe's health took a turn for the worse over the past year and he became more introspective. Not long ago, he shared some sentiments that he always tried to live by. One of them put something in my eye: "Friendship isn't about whom you have known the longest. It's about those who came and never left your side."

_Boston, November 7th 2013._ I hadn't heard from my friend in some weeks and my calls went unanswered. Early in the morning, something told me to go and pray for him. He always told me "trust your instincts; your gut'll tell ya," and I always listened, so I stopped the car he fancied (in the name of religion, which he didn't), in front of the Mission Church on Tremont Street. I climbed the stairs and made my way toward the altar in pre-dawn shadows beneath the statues. I wrote "Joe Rein" on a petition, folded it, and put it in the basket nearby. I whispered the Memorare and lit a candle.

They told me Joe died later that morning.

I cried.
&#8230;..
After this essay is published on _The Sweet Science,_ I'll half-expect the phone to ring, like it always has. But there will be only silence-an unfamiliar, aching silence. My plan is to rent a John Garfield movie, old-school cool, and reminisce.

I won't let him die. None of us should.


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## Trail

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## Trail

There's an updated version of Joe in the IN THE CHEAP SEATS book by Springs Toledo. Amazon have it for sale. I'd post a link but Amazon won't let me on here. 

If you're in the UK then the Amazon.co.uk works (type Springs Toledo), in the US then Amazon.com


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## DobyZhee

I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Rein for the Pacquiao Mosley fight.

We met up at Mandalay Bay and sat with him for an hour.

Amazing guy.

RIP Joe Rein


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## DobyZhee

I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Rein for the Pacquiao Mosley fight.

We met up at Mandalay Bay and sat with him for an hour.

Amazing guy.

RIP Joe Rein


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