# Rocky Marciano vs The Superheavyweights



## Rockinghorseshit (Oct 4, 2013)

Let's start the thread with an opponent like Valuev and Golota.

Marciano weighing in between 185 to 190 against Valuev at 300lbs.

I can see Marciano winning a decision by maybe being elusive and just stepping in and out with a few body hits but if Valuev times him well to the clinch too much then it becomes in his favor.

Golota I am not so sure about.


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## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

Golota is perhaps just as winnable for Marciano .

He's very open to a right hand , rocky could also use a good body attack and had the power to hurt golota . Let's not forget the vastly superior mental toughness that Marciano possessed compared to golota


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Some of these bigger heavyweights that are bulked up I think Marciano would have really beaten to a bloody pulp. Being a more stationary big target is all wrong to beat Marciano imo. The mass helps absorb punishment but Marciano can dish out to much even for the big fighters.

When it comes to the combination of Power and volume of punches Marciano probably stands alone. Over 15 rounds I don't know if there is a boxer who could dish out as much punishment. The mass of a super heavyweight helps absorb punishment, but how many flush shots can Valuev take from Marciano ? Its not like Marciano wont be able to get to them if he could get to Charles, Walcott and Moore he will be able to hit Valuev or Golota plenty.

Is having a longer reach going to save them? Everyone Rocky beat had a longer reach then him.


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## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

Let me start by saying that I feel a lot more comfortable picking Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis over super heavyweights than Rocky Marciano, because they have a body of work against world class fighters that size to constrain the pick. 

That does not mean to say that every world class super heavyweight should be picked over Marciano. It just means that there are uncertainties about how he would cope with the style. 

My guess is that he would have lost to the very best of them such as Lewis, but would have beaten up the Rahmans, Golottas, and Briggs's, sometimes badly.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

The Golota of the Bowe fights was a pretty high level boxer and is an interesting match up. If you put Marciano on steroids and bulked him up he could pull it out I think. At 185-190 in a post-war era of poverty and hunger it's not really a fair match up I feel. 

Valuev is very slow but huge, Chagaev beat Valuev being only 1 inch taller and rangier than Rocky so I think Rocky could do the same despite being 40lbs lighter. Rocky would need to be far more elusive than normal and be less aggressive. If he tries to come inside like Nobles did he could get pole axed by Valuev's uppercut.


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Yiddle said:


> Golota is perhaps just as winnable for Marciano .
> 
> He's very open to a right hand , rocky could also use a good body attack and had the power to hurt golota . *Let's not forget the vastly **superior mental toughness that Marciano possessed compared to golota*


That wins it for Rocky virtually alone.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> The Golota of the Bowe fights was a pretty high level boxer and is an interesting match up. If you put Marciano on steroids and bulked him up he could pull it out I think. At 185-190 in a post-war era of poverty and hunger it's not really a fair match up I feel.
> 
> Valuev is very slow but huge, Chagaev beat Valuev being only 1 inch taller and rangier than Rocky so I think Rocky could do the same despite being 40lbs lighter. Rocky would need to be far more elusive than normal and be less aggressive. If he tries to come inside like Nobles did he could get pole axed by Valuev's uppercut.


Oh c'mon... Marciano wasn't living in poverty and didn't have a lack of food that's ridiculous. And that's not why he was the size he was, not because he couldn't get food it's because he was small, make him bigger and bulkier on steroids like your saying he will lose some of his stamina from the extra weight then what. Marciano with less stamina has even more of a hard time.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Theron said:


> Oh c'mon... Marciano wasn't living in poverty and didn't have a lack of food that's ridiculous. And that's not why he was the size he was, not because he couldn't get food it's because he was small, make him bigger and bulkier on steroids like your saying he will lose some of his stamina from the extra weight then what. Marciano with less stamina has even more of a hard time.


He'd also be slower.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> He'd also be slower.


No he would not if you put Marciano on peds he would be even better, they can increase performance by 30% which is substantial. They can help everything from endurance to speed and strength. Endurance athletes take them along with sprinters. So they don't make you slower or cause you to have less endurance not if you take them in the right way.


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## Rockinghorseshit (Oct 4, 2013)

janitor said:


> Let me start by saying that I feel a lot more comfortable picking Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis over super heavyweights than Rocky Marciano, because they have a body of work against world class fighters that size to constrain the pick.
> 
> That does not mean to say that every world class super heavyweight should be picked over Marciano. It just means that there are uncertainties about how he would cope with the style.
> 
> My guess is that he would have lost to the very best of them such as Lewis, but would have beaten up the Rahmans, Golottas, and Briggs's, sometimes badly.


Ok, what about Ike Ibeabuchi?


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> No he would not if you put Marciano on peds he would be even better, they can increase performance by 30% which is substantial. They can help everything from endurance to speed and strength. Endurance athletes take them along with sprinters. So they don't make you slower or cause you to have less endurance not if you take them in the right way.


If he'd take steroids to bulk him up to 200-220 he'd be slower because of the massive weight increase.
I was talking about the increase of bulk, not directly about peds.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> If he'd take steroids to bulk him up to 200-220 he'd be slower because of the massive weight increase.
> I was talking about the increase of bulk, not directly about peds.


knowing how athletic rocky was I'm sure he would be able to pull off the weight gain


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> If he'd take steroids to bulk him up to 200-220 he'd be slower because of the massive weight increase.
> I was talking about the increase of bulk, not directly about peds.


Yeah, you are right in a way if he took them to bulk up alone it would slow him down, but if he took them they would be taken in a scientific way to make him better.

Heavyweight boxers would be much lighter if they trained the way Marciano did. If Tyson or Tua trained like Marciano they would not have been much heavier I don't think. Running long distances like Marciano did which was around 10 miles a day really does make you lighter.

The type of heavy endurance training Rocky used may have been a benefit to him though. Training like Tyson may not have worked as good for Rocky. who knows?


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## The Kurgan (May 17, 2013)

janitor said:


> Let me start by saying that I feel a lot more comfortable picking Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis over super heavyweights than Rocky Marciano, because they have a body of work against world class fighters that size to constrain the pick.
> 
> That does not mean to say that every world class super heavyweight should be picked over Marciano. It just means that there are uncertainties about how he would cope with the style.
> 
> My guess is that he would have lost to the very best of them such as Lewis, but would have beaten up the Rahmans, Golottas, and Briggs's, sometimes badly.


Yes, it's those who could straightforwardly outbox him and keep up a good pace (Lewis, the Klitschkos, Bowe) who I think could use their size advantages effectively against Marciano.

I find it hard to believe, for example, that Botha and Ruiz could beat Briggs and Valuev, but not Marciano. Would they have done any worse if they'd been 40 pounds lighter and had better stamina? Doubtful.


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## The Kurgan (May 17, 2013)

Rockinghorseshit said:


> Ok, what about Ike Ibeabuchi?


Very hard to say, I think, because we only saw Ike against two world-class opponents, and both were unconventional in their own ways. The Tua fight suggests that, in a situation where Ike could make his size count, he didn't.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

it is very funny when 4 retards say that marciano would have weighed 220 pounds in the modern era.. rocky was in shape at 185 pounds, PERIOD. he was a pig at 200 pounds, he would have much less stamina above 200 pounds and he would have been another idiot in the bunch at that weight. marciano was a cruiser, does not matter the era where he fought


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> it is very funny when 4 retards say that marciano would have weighed 220 pounds in the modern era.. rocky was in shape at 185 pounds, PERIOD. he was a pig at 200 pounds, he would have much less stamina above 200 pounds and he would have been another idiot in the bunch at that weight. marciano was a cruiser, does not matter the era where he fought


:deal

Rocky's frame was just suited to cruiser as well. Almost all heavyweights have 8 inch wrists while rocky has 7 1/4 inch wrists which size usually belongs to cruisers and light heavyweights, same with his waist size instead of the normal 34 inch waist of a heavy his is 32 which is the size of fighters mostly from middle-cruiser. Same for his chest size,forearm,ankle etc etc. compared to a proper heavy it's not what it should be because he wasn't a natural heavyweight he was a natural cruiser weight, try to make a guy as small as Rocky 200 or 220 pounds and it will fuck him up as a fighter more than improve him. Go with the Rocky that's proven.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> :deal
> 
> Rocky's frame was just suited to cruiser as well. Almost all heavyweights have 8 inch wrists while rocky has 7 1/4 inch wrists which size usually belongs to cruisers and light heavyweights, same with his waist size instead of the normal 34 inch waist of a heavy his is 32 which is the size of fighters mostly from middle-cruiser. Same for his chest size,forearm,ankle etc etc. compared to a proper heavy it's not what it should be because he wasn't a natural heavyweight he was a natural cruiser weight, try to make a guy as small as Rocky 200 or 220 pounds and it will fuck him up as a fighter more than improve him. Go with the Rocky that's proven.


Yeah, but Marciano did more endurance work then Tyson so of course he was less heavily built. I think the kind of condition Marciano worked his body into served him well and it would have also made him very dangerous against bigger fighters like Golota. If Tyson ran 10 to 15 miles a day he would not have carried as much bulk and actually may have been more effective as he slowed down as the fight went on where Marciano hit just as hard and with as much volume in the 15th round.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Tyson his style used up way more energy than Rocky's, if he was lighter he would have still tired.
Also Tyson didn't weightlift in his prime so if the weightlift argument is being used, it's not true.
(btw weightlifting is one of the most effective ways to lose weight besides eating less.)

If Marciano kept the same caloric intake and started lifting weights he would still be 185 pounds.

Also considering Tyson was much quicker than Marciano we can assume he has way more fast twitch muscles than Marciano and so naturally you expect Tyson to tire quicker than Marciano even if we take a Tyson with less bulk
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/MuscleFiberType.htm

Marciano is simply a much smaller framed guy than Tyson.
Just because Qawi was the same height as Pacman doesn't mean he could make 130 like Manny, same goes for Tyson-Marciano.


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## hazza (Sep 2, 2013)

Theron said:


> :deal
> 
> Rocky's frame was just suited to cruiser as well. Almost all heavyweights have 8 inch wrists while rocky has 7 1/4 inch wrists which size usually belongs to cruisers and light heavyweights, same with his waist size instead of the normal 34 inch waist of a heavy his is 32 which is the size of fighters mostly from middle-cruiser. Same for his chest size,forearm,ankle etc etc. compared to a proper heavy it's not what it should be because he wasn't a natural heavyweight he was a natural cruiser weight, try to make a guy as small as Rocky 200 or 220 pounds and it will fuck him up as a fighter more than improve him. Go with the Rocky that's proven.


agree, they go with what's natural. they tried to make Tyson lighter, like 214, and he said he felt better at 219, 220. that's just his weight. same with Marciano, at 200+ he'd be carrying fat, not muscle. and with his workrate, that would be suicidal. that's really interesting, comparing the stats on these guys that are identical in height and both killers in their day. also interesting that Tyson has all the tape stats of a hw except height and reach. but look at his neck, waist, chest, biceps, thigh etc. no wonder he looked like the incredible hulk.


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## D-U-D-E (Jul 31, 2013)

Tyson had a freaky big neck for his size. That thing was like a goddamn tree trunk.


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## hazza (Sep 2, 2013)

D-U-D-E said:


> Tyson had a freaky big neck for his size. That thing was like a goddamn tree trunk.


one hell of an asset too. meant he could take wicked hard punches. look at the uppercut Ruddock laid on him, Tyson's head twisted round so far he was looking at the ceiling almost, yet he kept fighting like nothing had even happened.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

hazza said:


> agree, they go with what's natural. they tried to make Tyson lighter, like 214, and he said he felt better at 219, 220. that's just his weight. same with Marciano, at 200+ he'd be carrying fat, not muscle. and with his workrate, that would be suicidal. that's really interesting, comparing the stats on these guys that are identical in height and both killers in their day. also interesting that Tyson has all the tape stats of a hw except height and reach. but look at his neck, waist, chest, biceps, thigh etc. no wonder he looked like the incredible hulk.


Then compare Tyson his tale of the tape with Tua.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/boxing/2000/lewis_tua/taleofthetape/
Tua his calves were the size of Tyson his neck.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Theron said:


> :deal
> 
> Rocky's frame was just suited to cruiser as well. Almost all heavyweights have 8 inch wrists while rocky has 7 1/4 inch wrists which size usually belongs to cruisers and light heavyweights, same with his waist size instead of the normal 34 inch waist of a heavy his is 32 which is the size of fighters mostly from middle-cruiser. Same for his chest size,forearm,ankle etc etc. compared to a proper heavy it's not what it should be because he wasn't a natural heavyweight he was a natural cruiser weight, try to make a guy as small as Rocky 200 or 220 pounds and it will fuck him up as a fighter more than improve him. Go with the Rocky that's proven.


Are you comparing frame or muscularity? Chest size and waist are as much functions of muscle mass as they are frame.

Anyway with modern know how and drugs/supplements he could easily carry 30lbs more weight. Chagaev is the same height, Tua is shorter, Toney's shorter. With Marciano's dedication he adds the muscle mass and maintains conditioning to some degree like Holyfield and Haye managed to (in different ways ofcourse).

Either that or he cuts water weight to make 175.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

hazza said:


> agree, they go with what's natural. *they tried to make Tyson lighter, like 214, and he said he felt better at 219, 220. *that's just his weight. same with Marciano, at 200+ he'd be carrying fat, not muscle. and with his workrate, that would be suicidal. that's really interesting, comparing the stats on these guys that are identical in height and both killers in their day. also interesting that Tyson has all the tape stats of a hw except height and reach. but look at his neck, waist, chest, biceps, thigh etc. no wonder he looked like the incredible hulk.


it is just a fucking lie haha, tyson himself said that he felt great at 215-217 tyson looked in his peak shape against holmes and he weighed 215 pounds, he was packed of muscle at 220 in the berbick fight.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

dyna said:


> Then compare Tyson his tale of the tape with Tua.
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/boxing/2000/lewis_tua/taleofthetape/
> Tua his calves were the size of Tyson his neck.


tua was a pig at 243 pounds.. he was in his prime at 225(he was built like a tank but i think tha he could be in better shape at 220 pounds)


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> Are you comparing frame or muscularity? Chest size and waist are as much functions of muscle mass as they are frame.
> 
> Anyway with modern know how and drugs/supplements he could easily carry 30lbs more weight.* Chagaev is the same height,* Tua is shorter, Toney's shorter. With Marciano's dedication he adds the muscle mass and maintains conditioning to some degree like Holyfield and Haye managed to (in different ways ofcourse).
> 
> Either that or he cuts water weight to make 175.


So is Wilfred Benitez...


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> tua was a pig at 243 pounds.. he was in his prime at 225(he was built like a tank but i think tha he could be in better shape at 220 pounds)


Yea I know but that was the only tale of the tape I could find of him.
Tua had enormous legs and I guess at 243 pounds even at 220 those legs would probably have around the same dimensions.

Sam Peter was also built like a tank


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> Are you comparing frame or muscularity? Chest size and waist are as much functions of muscle mass as they are frame.
> 
> Anyway with modern know how and drugs/supplements he could easily carry 30lbs more weight. Chagaev is the same height, Tua is shorter, Toney's shorter. With Marciano's dedication he adds the muscle mass and maintains conditioning to some degree like Holyfield and Haye managed to (in different ways ofcourse).
> 
> Either that or he cuts water weight to make 175.


I'm saying Marcianos frame is alot smaller, it's the size of a light heavyweight or cruiserweight. If you pack on too much to a frame that isn't made for it it will slow him down and hurt his stamina, for his frame he's supposed to be around 185 pounds, add 35 pounds could you imagine how bulky Rocky would look and how it would affect his overall game. 
Then i'd give guys like Charles and Walcott a better chance to beat him, I don't think he'd be able to be in their face all the time throwing non stop and he could be out sped by them easier, 
then add that in this scenario were putting him against ''super heavyweights'' and he's the smaller man in height and reach and even weight, and ''hypothetically'' we've already added 30-35 pounds to him and he's still small compared to them, I mean it doesn't look very good for him either way whether we add the extra weight or not.

Why not just go with the Rocky that we've seen on tape and know instead of hypothetical 220 pounds Rocky marciano, if we give him that extra weight and think we can know what happens we might aswell start thread on Harry Greb vs Marvin Hagler cause we definately have never seen a 220 pound Rocky fight and don't know what will happen.


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## hazza (Sep 2, 2013)

Theron said:


> Why not just go with the Rocky that we've seen on tape and know instead of hypothetical 220 pounds Rocky marciano, if we give him that extra weight and think we can know what happens we might aswell start thread on Harry Greb vs Marvin Hagler cause we definately have never seen a 220 pound Rocky fight and don't know what will happen.


aye :good

I get annoyed when people say oh well if Tyson didn't have so much speed or if he wasn't so heavy blah blah. well he WAS. without it he wouldn't be Tyson. same with Marciano. he WAS smaller framed, he was tough and he could take punishment. that was just him, anything else is not him and is silly speculation. and I agree totally, any extra weight on the rock would have hurt him because he wouldn't have the stamina that he did. like saying well what if ali didn't have reflexes like he did or George foreman was 205lb. you start turning fighters into other fighters then


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Theron said:


> I'm saying Marcianos frame is alot smaller, it's the size of a light heavyweight or cruiserweight. If you pack on too much to a frame that isn't made for it it will slow him down and hurt his stamina, for his frame he's supposed to be around 185 pounds, add 35 pounds could you imagine how bulky Rocky would look and how it would affect his overall game.
> Then i'd give guys like Charles and Walcott a better chance to beat him, I don't think he'd be able to be in their face all the time throwing non stop and he could be out sped by them easier,
> then add that in this scenario were putting him against ''super heavyweights'' and he's the smaller man in height and reach and even weight, and ''hypothetically'' we've already added 30-35 pounds to him and he's still small compared to them, I mean it doesn't look very good for him either way whether we add the extra weight or not.
> 
> Why not just go with the Rocky that we've seen on tape and know instead of hypothetical 220 pounds Rocky marciano, if we give him that extra weight and think we can know what happens we might aswell start thread on Harry Greb vs Marvin Hagler cause we definately have never seen a 220 pound Rocky fight and don't know what will happen.


I agree a 220lb Rocky is unknown territory, but what you have to bare in mind is Rocky is at a disadvantage to modern boxers because he doesn't have the know how or tools to add weight as effectively as a modern boxer. He has the determination to be a very conditioned fighter if he adds weight though.

I also agree he doesn't match up well with elite Super Heavyweights anyway like Lewis, Wlad, Bowe and Vitali, there's just too much distance to cover for him. Against weaker SHW like Carnera and Willard he can take advantage of their limitations and batter them.

So we agree on allot, maybe we can agree if he was to compete in the modern era he'd look to gain muscle if fighting at HW while maintaining stamina? Maybe not 220 but maybe 210


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> I agree a 220lb Rocky is unknown territory, but what you have to bare in mind is Rocky is at a disadvantage to modern boxers because he doesn't have the know how or tools to add weight as effectively as a modern boxer. He has the determination to be a very conditioned fighter if he adds weight though.
> 
> I also agree he doesn't match up well with elite Super Heavyweights anyway like Lewis, Wlad, Bowe and Vitali, there's just too much distance to cover for him. Against weaker SHW like Carnera and Willard he can take advantage of their limitations and batter them.
> 
> So we agree on allot, maybe we can agree if he was to compete in the modern era he'd look to gain muscle if fighting at HW while maintaining stamina? Maybe not 220 but maybe 210


He could add 25 pounds to go to 210 but i don't think he will be a top heavyweight and i think it would probably hurt him. Back then anyway he was fighting alot of guys that were around his weight anyway and more light heavies or cruisers as well and his toughest fights the guys were almost 40 years old. I just think for that time and era where there were alot of lighter guys and older greats at the tailspin of their careers to fight that's why he was undefeated. Put him in with young proper heavyweights and then change his weight around and make him heavier and bulkier I can't see him winning much at all against the elite fighters.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> I agree a 220lb Rocky is unknown territory, but what you have to bare in mind is Rocky is at a disadvantage to modern boxers because he doesn't have the know how or tools to add weight as effectively as a modern boxer. He has the determination to be a very conditioned fighter if he adds weight though.
> 
> I also agree he doesn't match up well with elite Super Heavyweights anyway like Lewis, Wlad, Bowe and Vitali, there's just too much distance to cover for him. Against weaker SHW like Carnera and Willard he can take advantage of their limitations and batter them.
> 
> So we agree on allot, maybe we can agree if he was to compete in the modern era he'd look to gain muscle if fighting at HW while maintaining stamina? Maybe not 220 but maybe 210


Rocky would fight at Cruiserweight today, unless he had absolutely no hopes of ever making a success of his boxing career. If being at 185lbs puts him at a disadvantage to modern heavyweights then too bad. Either match him as he is, or drop him down a weight division to where he isn't at a disadvantage. Adding 30 odd pounds and expecting him to magically be able to compete is just fantasy.


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## zadfrak (Jun 6, 2013)

Disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Rocky fought real real low, at least up to the Moore fight and his back was real bad. Who fights that low? What punches---by big guys--are going to land?

How many big guys can throw a punch that low while moving their own feet?

How many have the balance to throw an uppercut while moving their feet?

How many can throw a real good uppercut with both hands?

How many of these heavies are going to bother to bring their hands back to the proper position after throwing at a low target?

The other thing that never seems to be taken in context is that big guys make big targets. How often do you think Rocky misses punches against stationary targets right in front of him?

How many of those big guys have the footwork to deal with an attacker coming from that area? 

And lastly, how many have the brains and conditioning and boxing IQ to pull it off for 3 minutes a round? How about pulling it off for 45 minutes and not 5 second increments periodically?


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> I agree a 220lb Rocky is unknown territory, but what you have to bare in mind is Rocky is at a disadvantage to modern boxers because he doesn't have the know how or tools to add weight as effectively as a modern boxer. He has the determination to be a very conditioned fighter if he adds weight though.
> 
> I also agree he doesn't match up well with elite Super Heavyweights anyway like Lewis, Wlad, Bowe and Vitali, there's just too much distance to cover for him. *Against weaker SHW like Carnera and Willard *he can take advantage of their limitations and batter them.
> 
> So we agree on allot, maybe we can agree if he was to compete in the modern era he'd look to gain muscle if fighting at HW while maintaining stamina? Maybe not 220 but maybe 210


:rofl


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Theron said:


> He could add 25 pounds to go to 210 but i don't think he will be a top heavyweight and i think it would probably hurt him. Back then anyway he was fighting alot of guys that were around his weight anyway and more light heavies or cruisers as well and his toughest fights the guys were almost 40 years old. I just think for that time and era where there were alot of lighter guys and older greats at the tailspin of their careers to fight that's why he was undefeated. Put him in with young proper heavyweights and then change his weight around and make him heavier and bulkier I can't see him winning much at all against the elite fighters.


At a solid 210 he beats most or all none Klits imo. The Klits are the only elite HWs



It's Ovah said:


> Rocky would fight at Cruiserweight today, unless he had absolutely no hopes of ever making a success of his boxing career. If being at 185lbs puts him at a disadvantage to modern heavyweights then too bad. Either match him as he is, or drop him down a weight division to where he isn't at a disadvantage. Adding 30 odd pounds and expecting him to magically be able to compete is just fantasy.


No one tries to make a career at cruser, they either boil down to 175 or 168 or bulk up to HW because there's little money at cruser


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> :rofl


You think Willard/Carnera are better than Lewis, Wlad, Bowe and Vitali? Cool story


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> At a solid 210 he beats most or all none Klits imo. The Klits are the only elite HWs
> 
> No one tries to make a career at cruser, they either boil down to 175 or 168 or bulk up to HW because there's little money at cruser


So who beats Rock in your opinion out of

Golota
Bowe
Wlad
Vitali
Lewis


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

zadfrak said:


> Disagree. Wholeheartedly.
> 
> Rocky fought real real low, at least up to the Moore fight and his back was real bad. Who fights that low? What punches---by big guys--are going to land?
> 
> ...


You make some good points here and the part about these bigger and more stationary targets is really true. It does not matter how big they are Rocky could probably knock out a hippo with his best punch or at least seriously hurt it.

That is why I think he is one of the rare smaller men that really could have beat and beat badly these larger heavies. And he had this power in both hands and could throw the highest amount of real serious power punches per round I have ever seen. Plus he was never seriously hurt.

It does not matter if he is a little under 190 pounds, not the way he can dish it out and take it. Is some one like Tua going to stand in front of him and trade shots with Marciano? Marciano had more craft then guys like this and could dish out more punishment, especially over 15 rounds.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> At a solid 210 he beats most or all none Klits imo. The Klits are the only elite HWs
> 
> No one tries to make a career at cruser, they either boil down to 175 or 168 or bulk up to HW because there's little money at cruser


Then he'd probably try to boil down to LHW. Less of a monster gap in weight. Might affect him, though, especially his punch output and ludicrous stamina. If he moved up to heavy he'd be badly outsized and outgunned. Could potentially still make some decent money like Adamek, but he wouldn't be the fearsome destroyer we all know and love, and he certainly wouldn't have remained undefeated if he challenged a Klit.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

zadfrak said:


> Disagree. Wholeheartedly.
> 
> Rocky fought real real low, at least up to the Moore fight and his back was real bad. Who fights that low? What punches---by big guys--are going to land?
> 
> ...


Fighters have fought low before. It doesn't suddenly make them impossible to hit. In fact against a fighter like Wlad it makes them incredibly easy to combat since he can pop away at the top and sides of their head without them being able to get in range to land shots of their own, or if they do to be quickly shut down with a limpet clinch. How many small guys with bad backs can withstand a 240lb man trying to dry hump them for twelve rounds? Rocky isn't the only one who can pose problems here.


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## zadfrak (Jun 6, 2013)

Not that low. Name other guys that fought as low as Rocky. Consider the reality and physics of a tall long armed guy trying to land on a target that low. These guys all have sweet spots where they punch and where their maximum power is. And it isn't low. That's the worst place.

Then, you have a guy like Rocky that doesn't come in a straight line. Most of these big heavies need and require actually, a stationary target. That's not what marciano provides. And that's not getting into the factor of Marciano haviing the balance to thrown punches out of that crouch.

At any rate, I see big heavies throwing and missing or throwing and clipping the top of his head only. Nothing on the chin or cheekbones or temple even. And for that nanosecond after they punch, I sure don't see Marciano missing with those great counters of his. Worse, it'd be 2 or 3 punches before the big guys could tie him up or move their feet quickly enough to put Marciano out of range. 

Another thing I think they do is fight stupid. They'd try to bend down at the knees to try and get themselves down to Rocky's level so they can land. 



The size argument that size wins because of physical dimensions doesn't play out that way with the elite fighters. Otherwise you'd have a guy like Valuev as the best of all times...who really thinks that? 


Do you really think a Jamaal McCline has an easy night's work of Mike Tyson just because he's 6" taller and has 40 pounds on the guy? The other side of the coin is the guy is right there and a huge target for Mike to hit. Speed difference. Mobility. Once hurt, what's the big guy going to do to not get hit from combos from a quick combo puncher like Tyson?


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> You think Willard/Carnera are better than Lewis, Wlad, Bowe and Vitali? Cool story


you said WEAKER AND CARNERA WAS CLEARLY STRONGER THAN BOWE,LEWIS,WLADIMIR OR VITALI.. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WHO WAS BETTER , NICE TRY TROLL!!


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Theron said:


> So who beats Rock in your opinion out of
> 
> Golota
> Bowe
> ...


A 188lb Rocky or our imaginary 210lb version? Either way I don't think he matches up well with any bar Golota and that's partly down to Golota's stiffness and lacking toughness.



heavy_hands said:


> you said WEAKER AND CARNERA WAS CLEARLY STRONGER THAN BOWE,LEWIS,WLADIMIR OR VITALI.. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WHO WAS BETTER , NICE TRY TROLL!!


I know English isn't your first language and it's a confusing language because the rules aren't clear as it's taken rules derived from various languages. Saying a 'weaker heavyweight' also means 'a lower quality heavyweight'.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> A 188lb Rocky or our imaginary 210lb version? Either way I don't think he matches up well with any bar Golota and that's partly down to Golota's stiffness and lacking toughness.
> 
> I know English isn't your first language and it's a confusing language because the rules aren't clear as it's taken rules derived from various languages. Saying a 'weaker heavyweight' also means 'a lower quality heavyweight'.


oh.. did you mean worse fighters? it is debatable also.. i would love to see bowe against a bigger stronger man than himself.. the same with lewis.. carnera had problems with smaller a much faster fighters, not against big targets, i dont know who would win.. but i don´t think that carnera would be an easy victim for any other super hw


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Then he'd probably try to boil down to LHW. Less of a monster gap in weight. Might affect him, though, especially his punch output and ludicrous stamina. If he moved up to heavy he'd be badly outsized and outgunned. Could potentially still make some decent money like Adamek, but he wouldn't be the fearsome destroyer we all know and love, and he certainly wouldn't have remained undefeated if he challenged a Klit.


Initially he may well fight at LHW but you have to remember LHWs still go upto HW and win, Jones Jr, Toney and Adamek. I can't see him beating Wlad, Vitali there's an outside chance as Vitali's lean back arm punch game doesn't match up great against pressure - see Byrd, Chisora and shot to pieces cool guy in your avatar.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> oh.. did you mean worse fighters? it is debatable also.. *i would love to see bowe against a bigger stronger man than himself*.. the same with lewis.. carnera had problems with smaller a much faster fighters, not against big targets, i dont know who would win.. but i don´t think that carnera would be an easy victim for any other super hw


This would be the best example of that






Carnera got allot of backlash and became underrated but I believe his level of technique, fluidity and power to be significantly below the likes of Bowe/Lennox/Vitali and Wlad. Emanuel Steward actually said Bowe was a more fluid natural boxer than Holyfield. But ofcourse Bowe lacked the dedication.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> This would be the best example of that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


luis gonzales? are you serious? he was a fucking bum.. carnera was champion of the world and he was a natural 280 pounder of giant frame and muscle..


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> luis gonzales? are you serious? he was a fucking bum.. carnera was champion of the world and he was a natural 280 pounder of giant frame and muscle..


He was an elite amateur and an undefeated pro who beat Bowe, Lennox Lewis, Teofilo Stevenson and Biggs in the amateurs. He certainly had pedigree but went backwards after this loss.

Carnera was a giant and more like 260 than 280, not as tall as Gonzalez though but rangier. Gomez was never champ like Carnera but he was in a much better tougher era.

Carnera certainly doesn't have many tools to keep Bowe coming inside an laying a beating on him.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> He was an elite amateur and an undefeated pro who beat Bowe, Lennox Lewis, Teofilo Stevenson and Biggs in the amateurs. He certainly had pedigree but went backwards after this loss.
> 
> Carnera was a giant and more like 260 than 280, not as tall as Gonzalez though but rangier. Gomez was never champ like Carnera but he was in a much better tougher era.
> 
> Carnera certainly doesn't have many tools to keep Bowe coming inside an laying a beating on him.


gonzales never would have been champioon in the era of carnera and you know it.. and physically he was a tall skinny guy , carnera was a natural 280 pounder monster , 260 pounds was his lowest weight, does not matter the amateurs.. completely different games, for example bobick was a great amateur and he was a crappy professional.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

zadfrak said:


> Not that low. Name other guys that fought as low as Rocky. Consider the reality and physics of a tall long armed guy trying to land on a target that low. These guys all have sweet spots where they punch and where their maximum power is. And it isn't low. That's the worst place.
> 
> Then, you have a guy like Rocky that doesn't come in a straight line. Most of these big heavies need and require actually, a stationary target. That's not what marciano provides. And that's not getting into the factor of Marciano haviing the balance to thrown punches out of that crouch.
> 
> ...


i think we're getting too vague here. Specifically which heavyweights would Rocky pose these problems to? Certainly not Wlad, whose ability to hit a moving target cannot really be questioned, nor can his ability to effectively deal with smaller targets (mostly by leaning all over them). And not Lennox either, whose uppercuts and general physical strength would make mincemeat out of a fighter like Rocky. Bowe would give him openings, but he'd also be using his own superior strength and physical presence to beat Rocky at this own game.

Sure, if you're going to just label any old lump a "superheavyweight" then of course Rocky has his fair share of success, but that's sort of stating the obvious, isn't it? A superheavyweight is not just a big man (of which the sport has never lacked in any era) but a big man with athleticism and skill and the ability to make his size count. Fighters like Jameel McCline don't really count here.

After all, one doesn't equate a Rocky-sized fighter to Brian Minto do they? So why do it for the big men?


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> Initially he may well fight at LHW but you have to remember LHWs still go upto HW and win, Jones Jr, Toney and Adamek. I can't see him beating Wlad, Vitali there's an outside chance as Vitali's lean back arm punch game doesn't match up great against pressure - see Byrd, Chisora and shot to pieces cool guy in your avatar.


RJJ possessed immense speed which he was able to use to his advantage against his slower larger opponent. Toney possessed incredible skills and Adamek... well, Adamek, whilst successful, has benefited from some tasty matchmaking a more than one fortunate decision in his time. None of the three came anywhere near becoming unified champion and Adamek, in his one shot against a Klit, got totally outclassed. Not a massively strong body of evidence to go on to say that Rocky would have success even in today's impoverished heavyweight division. He'd be the smaller man, he'd be the slower man in many cases, and his fight stopping power would be significantly diminished. He would also be putting his bad back under tremendous stress the way modern heavies lean all over their opponents. He'd in short have a torrid time.


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## SP_Mauker (Jun 5, 2013)

[Ke$ha]
It's going down, I'm yelling timber


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## zadfrak (Jun 6, 2013)

Lewis doesn't have the footwork to land the uppercut on Marciano. He'd have lots of problems moving those size 17's. Rocky is way way too low. And how many left uppercuts is Lennox throwing? He stopped throwing left hooks by the time the tutelage of Davenport was over. Left uppercuts would have been when?

So it's right hand only. That's it. Consider the physics....For Lewis to land the uppercut on a guy like Marciano, where would his right elbow have to be? Under his thigh? Mid thigh? You think he's dipping that low to throw a punch?


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

zadfrak said:


> Lewis doesn't have the footwork to land the uppercut on Marciano. He'd have lots of problems moving those size 17's. Rocky is way way too low. And how many left uppercuts is Lennox throwing? He stopped throwing left hooks by the time the tutelage of Davenport was over. Left uppercuts would have been when?
> 
> So it's right hand only. That's it. Consider the physics....For Lewis to land the uppercut on a guy like Marciano, where would his right elbow have to be? Under his thigh? Mid thigh? You think he's dipping that low to throw a punch?


hahah you can´t be serious.. marciano is probably the slowest 180s pounder ever, lewis would pick his shots and he would hit the face of marciano during all the night and yes the upper included,, rocky could not even join in the short distance, lewis was much bigegr , heavier and stronger and he would handle rocky like a doll, sorry but i would see it a complete beating a one sided fight, marciano is predictable and slow, yo need a sniper accurate puncher, with fast combinations and a great finisher like joe louis to hurt lewis, not a slow midget with slow hands, marciano would not have even the chance of the puncher because he would not be able to land on the chin of the much taller lewis. and the poor idea of thinking that rocky would breakdown lewis hitting the body is just laughable


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## zadfrak (Jun 6, 2013)

Disagree.

You don't see it. I do. That's why a boxing forem in the first place. 

Two other things with Lennox I didn't see either. Getting starched by 1 punch by Rahman of all people. Of all the guys Lennox fought I could envision other guys landing on Lennox and maybe getting him. Not Rahman. Like everyone else, I thought the fight was a mismatch when signed and that's why Lewis was a 13-1 favorite going in. But that was a Suzy Q kind of shot wasn't it? right on the chin, not the cheekbone or anywhere, point of the chin. Bang, fight over title lost.

The other thing with Lewis was how sloppy he was in that first McCall fight. Here you have a guy in a WBC title fight against a DKP fighter. So the warning signs are all over the place the the danger will robinson message is constantly repeated.

But Lewis is no dummy and had already gone into the lions den a few times and gotten victories. And at the time, nobody was that high on Oliver McCall. He was best known as a durable Tyson sparring partner and a guy that fought on DKP cards. But high pedigree and a big set of tools to draw from? Pressure of a big fight? Results over an elite fighter? McCall was barely on the radar screen.

But there is Lennox telegraphing and falling in after throwing right hand leads. Then he gets beat to punch. He's on the deck and in a DKP fight, it's all over.

So I can envision Marciano having the equipment to land on Lewis and I can envision Lewis getting starhed by a shot he doesn't see but is open for. It's a window. But it is there, isn't it?


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

zadfrak said:


> Lewis doesn't have the footwork to land the uppercut on Marciano. He'd have lots of problems moving those size 17's. Rocky is way way too low. And how many left uppercuts is Lennox throwing? He stopped throwing left hooks by the time the tutelage of Davenport was over. Left uppercuts would have been when?
> 
> So it's right hand only. That's it. Consider the physics....For Lewis to land the uppercut on a guy like Marciano, where would his right elbow have to be? Under his thigh? Mid thigh? You think he's dipping that low to throw a punch?


If you're going to paint a flawed image of Lewis like that while completely ignoring any of Rocky's weaknesses then of course Rocky has a chance. What of the problems Lennox causes Rocky? Superior jab, superior reach, world class skills, immense power, etc?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Whilst Lewis might find it difficult to land much on Marciano, The Brockton Blockbuster isn't landing anything of note on Lewis. If Marciano somehow lasts the distance he barely wins a round.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Other super heavyweights I could see people giving it a maybe
win for Marciano (not that i agree), but definatley not Lewis of all people or Bowe.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Theron said:


> Other super heavyweights I could see people giving it a maybe
> win for Marciano (not that i agree), but definatley not Lewis of all people or Bowe.


I can see Marciano taking out some bigger fighters from the modern era, but can they really be classed as superheavyweights? Rocky knocking out a Lou Savarese type guy doesn't really count for much, does it?


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> I can see Marciano taking out some bigger fighters from the modern era, but can they really be classed as superheavyweights? Rocky knocking out a Lou Savarese type guy doesn't really count for much, does it?


We need a list of guys i think

Lewis
Bowe
Golota
Ibeabuchi
Wlad
Vitali

who else?

I'm thinking more of Rocky vs the better half of the super heavyweights, i believe he falls short to probably all of them 
but if we're talking super heavyweights but not the best then he starts to have a chance at beating them.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Theron said:


> We need a list of guys i think
> 
> Lewis
> Bowe
> ...


I don't know if this is the same for everyone, but for me a superheavyweight isn't just a big guy, but a big guy with the corresponding athleticism to compete with the smaller guys. They might not be _as _fast, or _as _fleet footed, but they shouldn't be lumbering brutes tripping over their own feet either. All of the above would qualify, as would guys like Bruno, Sanders, Witherspoon, McCall, even Michael Grant. Basically guys whose size aids them rather than hinders them.

Valuev I would not class as a superheavyweight for that reason.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

My criteria for superheavyweights is mostly just size I would include fighters like Valuev or Carnera on my list of super heavyweights. If a fighter is over 6'5 with a big frame I would call him a super heavyweight. A boxer that fought consistently over 230 pounds I would also classify as a super heavyweight.

My super heavyweights in no order

Carnera
Valuev
Terrell
Fulton
Rahman
B Baer
Willard
Tucker
Fury
Old Foreman
Douglas
Thompson
Peter
Lewis
Bowe
Golota
Ibeabuchi
Wlad 
Vitali
Bruno
Sanders
Maskaev
Witherspoon
McCall
Akinwande
Grant
Simon

I don't know if there is a fighter who could fight all those name in their primes without a loss. It would be a great resume. Marciano would have big problems with prime Lewis, Wladimir, Vitali, Bowe, Douglas, Ibebuchi, but so would any fighter in history.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

If that's the definition then Marciano has a fair bit of success against a lot of historically big guys like Carnera, Simon, B Baer, Willard, Fulton and the like as well as more modern, "athletic" big guys like Grant. I just think that's sort of a given though, considering he was so much better than them. Against top rank superheavies he's simply at too much of a disadvantage.

Obvious point to make perhaps, but there you go.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> If that's the definition then Marciano has a fair bit of success against a lot of historically big guys like Carnera, Simon, B Baer, Willard, Fulton and the like as well as more modern, "athletic" big guys like Grant. I just think that's sort of a given though, considering he was so much better than them. Against top rank superheavies he's simply at too much of a disadvantage.
> 
> Obvious point to make perhaps, but there you go.


I think Lewis and Wlad are more just really good superheavies compared to someone like Valuev, that's the way I look at it anyway.

Its not so obvious to me that these good superheavies would be able to beat Marciano, but I am not going to argue about it.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> I think Lewis and Wlad are more just really good superheavies compared to someone like Valuev, that's the way I look at it anyway.
> 
> Its not so obvious to me that these good superheavies would be able to beat Marciano, but I am not going to argue about it.


Valuev's a bit of an odd case, I'll grant, because although he's absolutely shocking (SNV forgive me) his sheer gargantuan size makes him a difficult proposition for anyone of Rocky's dimensions. That isn't to say that Rocky wouldn't be in with a chance; it's one of the few fights where his small size might actually be an advantage, the way Qawi's was against Foreman. And Valuev has been troubled by smaller fighters before. I just can't see how Marciano would _hurt _him unless he went hardcore to Valuev's mammoth midsection and eschewed headhunting altogether.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Valuev's a bit of an odd case, I'll grant, because although he's absolutely shocking (SNV forgive me) his sheer gargantuan size makes him a difficult proposition for anyone of Rocky's dimensions. That isn't to say that Rocky wouldn't be in with a chance; it's one of the few fights where his small size might actually be an advantage, the way Qawi's was against Foreman. And Valuev has been troubled by smaller fighters before. I just can't see how Marciano would _hurt _him unless he went hardcore to Valuev's mammoth midsection and eschewed headhunting altogether.


I think Valuev would lose, somebody posted a video of a short guy 5'10 or something beating him, some journeyman fighter so if he could Rocky would annihilate him.
Don't really agree Qawi couldn't do much against Foreman, Foreman used his size and strength quite well against him. 
I don't see Rocky beating the Klitschkos or Bowe or Lewis or Golota, not the elite big guys but some of the big not skilled guys he would wear down like Carnera, Buddy Baer etc


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Theron said:


> *I think Valuev would lose*, somebody posted a video of a short guy 5'10 or something beating him, some journeyman fighter so if he could Rocky would annihilate him.
> Don't really agree Qawi couldn't do much against Foreman, Foreman used his size and strength quite well against him.
> I don't see Rocky beating the Klitschkos or Bowe or Lewis or Golota, not the elite big guys but some of the big not skilled guys he would wear down like Carnera, Buddy Baer etc


I think the fight would be competitive, and given a good ref and a fair set of judges I wouldn't be surprised to see Rock walk away with the win. It's not nearly as unrealistic a task as it seems on paper.

Vs Golota, there's always Andrew's mental condition to bear in mind. A sufficiently dogged and tenacious effort from Rock might see Golota start to wilt and then any random shit could happen.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Valuev's a bit of an odd case, I'll grant, because although he's absolutely shocking (SNV forgive me) his sheer gargantuan size makes him a difficult proposition for anyone of Rocky's dimensions. That isn't to say that Rocky wouldn't be in with a chance; it's one of the few fights where his small size might actually be an advantage, the way Qawi's was against Foreman. And Valuev has been troubled by smaller fighters before. I just can't see how Marciano would _hurt _him unless he went hardcore to Valuev's mammoth midsection and eschewed headhunting altogether.


I believe that Marciano had not just great power for a 185 pound fighter, but all time great power. Many of the boxers that Marciano fought were very crafty and hard for him to really deliver his full power on. A boxer like Valuev would really take an awful and horrible beating being as slow and clumsy as he was. I really think Marciano was good enough at avoiding punishment that Valuev would have a hard time really lining him up with any really effective punches also. And even if he did manage to somehow land some of his best punches on Marciano I don't think they would have to much effect, I am not that impressed with Valuev's punch.

Some people think Marciano would have a hard time reaching the chins of these taller fighters, but they are blowing things out of proportion. Even Wladimir's chin would only be about 6 inches above Marciano's.

You make reference how Qawi a much shorter man was able to really give Formen a great deal of problems. Well Marciano was a lot better and harder hitting then Qawi and Foreman was far better and harder punching then Valuev. Just saying there is a far greater difference in ability and power here, then between Qawi and Foreman.

It would be a horrid bloody mess if the beating was allowed to continue. I really think over 15 no one can do the kind of damage Marciano can he punches far to hard and the volume of these punches was at times surreal. The way he was unleashing on Moore late in the fight and Charles in the 15th round, it must have been like a nightmare for them. If your going to just stand in front of Marciano and be a big punch absorber your going to get smashed to bits and Marciano won't stop or slow down he gives no quarter it would just keep getting worse and worse.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> My criteria for superheavyweights is mostly just size I would include fighters like Valuev or Carnera on my list of super heavyweights. If a fighter is over 6'5 with a big frame I would call him a super heavyweight. A boxer that fought consistently over 230 pounds I would also classify as a super heavyweight.
> 
> My super heavyweights in no order
> 
> ...


lmao terrel was a skinny 196-212 pounder in his prime in 6´5 of height and he never weighed 230 pounds in his complete career even when he was shot..

tonny tucker weighed 220 pounds in his prime
frank bruno weighed 228 in his prime
spoon weighed around 216 in his prime


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> I believe that Marciano had not just great power for a 185 pound fighter, but all time great power. Many of the boxers that Marciano fought were very crafty and hard for him to really deliver his full power on. A boxer like Valuev would really take an awful and horrible beating being as slow and clumsy as he was. I really think Marciano was good enough at avoiding punishment that Valuev would have a hard time really lining him up with any really effective punches also. And even if he did manage to somehow land some of his best punches on Marciano I don't think they would have to much effect, I am not that impressed with Valuev's punch.
> 
> Some people think Marciano would have a hard time reaching the chins of these taller fighters, but they are blowing things out of proportion. Even Wladimir's chin would only be about 6 inches above Marciano's.
> 
> ...


you a horrible poster


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

I've never really thought of Valuev or Carnera as an example for superheavyweights considering they both suffered from gigantism which brings a shitload of other complications.
It's like using dwarfism to show short people aren't as athletic as long people.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> lmao terrel was a skinny 196-212 pounder in his prime in 6´5 of height and he never weighed 230 pounds in his complete career even when he was shot..
> 
> tonny tucker weighed 220 pounds in his prime
> frank bruno weighed 228 in his prime
> spoon weighed around 216 in his prime


I said in my post that I would include fighters that were tall with big frames as super heavyweights. Even Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko fought under 230 pounds so just because a fighter is under 230 pounds don't mean he is not a real big strong man imo. So I included tall fighters with big frames that I think were big men even though they were under 230. Do you think the 220 pound versions of Wlad and Lennox were not superheavies? What is your criteria for superheavies?


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> I said in my post that I would include fighters that were tall with big frames as super heavyweights. Even Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko fought under 230 pounds so just because a fighter is under 230 pounds don't mean he is not a real big strong man imo. So I included tall fighters with big frames that I think were big men even though they were under 230. Do you think the 220 pound versions of Wlad and Lennox were not superheavies? What is your criteria for superheavies?


 it is absolutely irrelevant and it hasn´t any relation with my comment.. wladimir and lennox were in their lowest weights in the 220s, terrel never fought at 230 pounds in his complete career and he weighed 197-210 pounds in his prime, he did not have a big frame, he was a tall guy very skinny, just shut up and admit your mistake


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> it is absolutely irrelevant and it hasn´t any relation with my comment.. wladimir and lennox were in their lowest weights in the 220s, terrel never fought at 230 pounds in his complete career and he weighed 197-210 pounds in his prime, he did not have a big frame, he was a tall guy very skinny, just shut up and admit your mistake


What are your criteria for a superheavy?


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> it is absolutely irrelevant and it hasn´t any relation with my comment.. wladimir and lennox were in their lowest weights in the 220s, terrel never fought at 230 pounds in his complete career and he weighed 197-210 pounds in his prime, he did not have a big frame, he was a tall guy very skinny, just shut up and admit your mistake


I think a lot of these huge guys could get down to around 210 pounds if they wanted to. If Wladimir and Lewis fought in the low 220s I think with heavy endurance training they could get down even lower in weight. Wladimir does not even do much road work really he just goes on brisk walks from what I have heard. If he did mileage that Marciano did 10 miles a day and stopped lifting he would probably be under 220 pounds and likely not much more then 210 pounds. I think Ernie Terrell had a pretty big frame and could have packed on more weight if he wanted to. My point is just because a guy is heavy don't mean he is bigger then a lighter boxer. I think Terrell was probably quite a bit bigger then some guys who have weighed in at 220. Maybe he should be taken off the list.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> you a horrible poster


I might not have been clear. I was responding to what another poster said. "That isn't to say that Rocky wouldn't be in with a chance; it's one of the few fights where his small size might actually be an advantage, the way Qawi's was against Foreman."

Qawi gave Forman problems. Marciano is a lot better fighter then Qawi and Valuev is no where near the fighter Forman was. Marciano Power was far greater then Qawis, its not even close. And Foremans power was far greater then Valuev's. Do you understand what I am explaining? If Qawi can trouble a fighter far bigger that was an atg then Marciano can beat the fuck out of Valuev, and not just Valuev, many of these big fighters Marciano would crash down.

If your fighting Marciano you better get out of the way not just be big and stationary mass, that is not going to work. Probably a fighter like Chris byrd would be more of a challenge to Marciano then most of these superheavy weights


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Honestly rocky has little to no chance. When you look at his career it might as well have been at cruiser. Aside from an old Louis every other notable fight took place at the cruiser limit.

Dempsey and Louis both defeated super heavyweights so we know they can produce an argument of style as opposed to size.

Rocky doesn't get the benefit of the doubt here. He never once proved himself against a true heavyweight. He won by overwhelming and out punching men of a similar weight. Put him in there with someone like Rahman and if he starts exchanging he's getting sparked. He won't be the stronger man any more,he won't be the harder hitter any more. We haven't seen how he could adapt his style. The only super heavys of note I'd expect him to beat are golota (who'll find a way to quit) and valuev (who's actually gonna be the slower man in the ring).

A vitali fight would be interesting if he can get inside but there's also the chance that vitali's incessant jab and superior footwork prevent that happening.

a Willard fight is also interesting if he could utilise his jab and keep rocky outside, how would he ever win? Same thing but more certain with Wlad.

Carnera, Baer, Bowe, Lewis, Foreman, Briggs, Rahman are all big favourites here in this matchup. All can afford to exchange with him and all would bomb him out.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> i think a lot of these huge guys could get down to around 210 pounds if they wanted to. If wladimir and lewis fought in the low 220s i think with heavy endurance training they could get down even lower in weight. Wladimir does not even do much road work really he just goes on brisk walks from what i have heard. If he did mileage that marciano did 10 miles a day and stopped lifting he would probably be under 220 pounds and likely not much more then 210 pounds. I think ernie terrell had a pretty big frame and could have packed on more weight if he wanted to. My point is just because a guy is heavy don't mean he is bigger then a lighter boxer. I think terrell was probably quite a bit bigger then some guys who have weighed in at 220. Maybe he should be taken off the list.


marciano never would have weighed 210 pound sin shape, he was a pig at 195 in the computer fight in 1969, marciano was in shape at 185 pounds, period, saying any different thing is fantasy. About the other topic.. I know that the weight does not prove who is the naturally bigger man, but in this case you are wrong, terrel was not a big framed guy, he was tall but he was very skinny and his thorax was not wide, he was not wide of shoulders and his legs were very skinny, he could make the crusierweight and he had no problem doing it. And sorry if was was too hard with you, but i hate the crap" qawi gave foreman problems... So imagine marciano" it is a bullshit.. The poster bummydavis was a foreman hater and he said it always so i got mad.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> marciano never would have weighed 210 pound sin shape, he was a pig at 195 in the computer fight in 1969, marciano was in shape at 185 pounds, period, saying any different thing is fantasy. About the other topic.. I know that the weight does not prove who is the naturally bigger man, but in this case you are wrong, terrel was not a big framed guy, he was tall but he was very skinny and his thorax was not wide, he was not wide of shoulders and his legs were very skinny, he could make the crusierweight and he had no problem doing it. And sorry if was was too hard with you, but i hate the crap" qawi gave foreman problems... So imagine marciano" it is a bullshit.. The poster bummydavis was a foreman hater and he said it always so i got mad.


Marciano did not have to put on weight he was the perfect fighter the way he was. Terrel might not have the frame of a super heavyweight and is maybe just a normal heavyweight.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> I believe that Marciano had not just great power for a 185 pound fighter, but all time great power. Many of the boxers that Marciano fought were very crafty and hard for him to really deliver his full power on. A boxer like Valuev would really take an awful and horrible beating being as slow and clumsy as he was. I really think Marciano was good enough at avoiding punishment that Valuev would have a hard time really lining him up with any really effective punches also. And even if he did manage to somehow land some of his best punches on Marciano I don't think they would have to much effect, I am not that impressed with Valuev's punch. Some people think Marciano would have a hard time reaching the chins of these taller fighters, but they are blowing things out of proportion. Even Wladimir's chin would only be about 6 inches above Marciano's.


It's difficult to really rate Rock's power all time since he never really had to take out a huge durable target in his entire career, a quality fighter I mean. Against other CW sized men he proved himself, which is why it's so much easier arguing his case against other Cruiserweights than it is against heavyweights who've really blown up in size since his day. The craftiness angle is a good one, though it doesn't reflect so much on his power as it does on his delivery system. Valuev wouldn't pose that problem, limiting this to power only; but while he's little more than a big lump with fists, but he's still one of the most durable champions in recent history, and has never to my knowledge been remotely troubled by anything to the body. I don't know what it would be like to fight him, but I imagine it being akin to punching away at an oak tree; the man was all bone.

But like I said, I wouldn't rule Rock's chances out here; I just think he'd need to fight a very specific type of fight that he might not be used to doing. The height problem is a very pertinent one here. Going to the head would force Marciano to punch way above what he's comfortable doing, and take a lot off his power, and his left hook would be almost impossible to land. He'd be forced to go to the body or throw overhand rights only, and while that might be enough to get the job done he'd be severely limiting his arsenal. Still, Valuev's so basic that Rocky would be able to land on him with some regularity, and who knows what may happen down the stretch? Small as he was, the man packed dynamite in his fists.



kenny black said:


> You make reference how Qawi a much shorter man was able to really give Formen a great deal of problems. Well Marciano was a lot better and harder hitting then Qawi and Foreman was far better and harder punching then Valuev. Just saying there is a far greater difference in ability and power here, then between Qawi and Foreman.
> 
> It would be a horrid bloody mess if the beating was allowed to continue. I really think over 15 no one can do the kind of damage Marciano can he punches far to hard and the volume of these punches was at times surreal. The way he was unleashing on Moore late in the fight and Charles in the 15th round, it must have been like a nightmare for them. If your going to just stand in front of Marciano and be a big punch absorber your going to get smashed to bits and Marciano won't stop or slow down he gives no quarter it would just keep getting worse and worse.


You may be right. I just have a really hard time envisioning the fight in my head. It really would be a freakshow.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> It's difficult to really rate Rock's power all time since he never really had to take out a huge durable target in his entire career, a quality fighter I mean. Against other CW sized men he proved himself, which is why it's so much easier arguing his case against other Cruiserweights than it is against heavyweights who've really blown up in size since his day. The craftiness angle is a good one, though it doesn't reflect so much on his power as it does on his delivery system. Valuev wouldn't pose that problem, limiting this to power only; but while he's little more than a big lump with fists, but he's still one of the most durable champions in recent history, and has never to my knowledge been remotely troubled by anything to the body. I don't know what it would be like to fight him, but I imagine it being akin to punching away at an oak tree; the man was all bone.
> 
> But like I said, I wouldn't rule Rock's chances out here; I just think he'd need to fight a very specific type of fight that he might not be used to doing. The height problem is a very pertinent one here. Going to the head would force Marciano to punch way above what he's comfortable doing, and take a lot off his power, and his left hook would be almost impossible to land. He'd be forced to go to the body or throw overhand rights only, and while that might be enough to get the job done he'd be severely limiting his arsenal. Still, Valuev's so basic that Rocky would be able to land on him with some regularity, and who knows what may happen down the stretch? Small as he was, the man packed dynamite in his fists.
> 
> You may be right. I just have a really hard time envisioning the fight in my head. It really would be a freakshow.


Marciano is not that heavy, but he is big and heavy enough to deliver all time great power. Bobby Hull and Mickey Mantle were about Marciano's size and they hit the puck and baseball the hardest all time in their respective sports.

The damage Marciano did with his punches is well documented and the 1 punch knock outs are used as bench marks for punching power. His Punch was even tested and had the ability to send 1000 pounds air born! this is really impressive!! Anyone who understands basic kinetic things will be in shock that Marciano could punch hard enough to send 1000 pounds into the air, the results of this test are nothing short of surreal! The way Marciano punched was unique and it looks like he has the most powerful punches ever imo. Valuevs chin would only be about a foot above Rocky's chin and its not to hard to punch something 1 foot above your own chin with hooks and all sorts of different types of punches. All the vulnerable parts along the jaw line are more exposed to Marciano's punches actually.

And David Haye seriously rocked Valuev in the 12th round with a single punch.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Marciano is not that heavy, but he is big and heavy enough to deliver all time great power. Bobby Hull and Mickey Mantle were about Marciano's size and they hit the puck and baseball the hardest all time in their respective sports.
> 
> The damage Marciano did with his punches is well documented and the 1 punch knock outs are used as bench marks for punching power. His Punch was even tested and had the ability to send 1000 pounds air born! this is really impressive!! Anyone who understands basic kinetic things will be in shock that Marciano could punch hard enough to send 1000 pounds into the air, the results of this test are nothing short of surreal! The way Marciano punched was unique and it looks like he has the most powerful punches ever imo. Valuevs chin would only be about a foot above Rocky's chin and its not to hard to punch something 1 foot above your own chin with hooks and all sorts of different types of punches. All the vulnerable parts along the jaw line are more exposed to Marciano's punches actually.
> 
> And David Haye seriously rocked Valuev in the 12th round with a single punch.


Mark McGwire when playing for Oakland, Mark McGwire hit a Randy Johnson 99mph fastball off of the Texaco sign in the Kingdome in Seattle. It had to go 500 feet, but the crazy part was it only took a vary small.
That guy is 196cm.
Hardest hitter in baseball was a very big man.

Also shot putting and Hammer throw (100% focused on power) feature very big explosive men.
A small guy in shotputting is still 260 lbs of muscle.

But you're also the guy who doesn't know that PSI isn't a measure of power.
Also do you know a 4 ton elephant only applies 9 psi to the ground?
According to you* in other thread with modern punching power testing they measure it in psi.

http://translate.googleusercontent....8.html&usg=ALkJrhiPksgd5MmcITF97_U2vUnzLzPtFw
(here is the article again, it says 700kg which is 1500 pounds or so)

According to you the pressure of Wlad his punch would be 150 Elephants stacked on top of each other.(As you said it's measured in psi)
Sounds a lot more formidable than punching 1000 pounds airborne.

(A women standing on high heels delivers 471 psi to the ground though, but this can be 3 times as much depending on the heels)
An Abrams tank only has 15 psi ground pressure

*I can screencap your posts if you're suddenly telling me after this post you never said that.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Mark McGwire when playing for Oakland, Mark McGwire hit a Randy Johnson 99mph fastball off of the Texaco sign in the Kingdome in Seattle. It had to go 500 feet, but the crazy part was it only took a vary small.
> That guy is 196cm.
> Hardest hitter in baseball was a very big man.
> 
> ...


Mickey Mantle has the record for the longest home run. It was over 500 feet something Mantle did with regularity.

I know what psi is and this is not the kind of punch test Marciano was doing. It involved hitting a large pendulum. I don't know how hard Marciano hit in terms of Psi and I was mixed up about it, but so were you so shut the fuck up.

I thought 1000 psi would not move 1000 pounds where you calculated wlads punch would knock 1000 pounds 13 meters into the air Ha!Ha! I may have been wrong, but at least I was closer then your caculations, wiz kid.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Mickey Mantle has the record for the longest home run. It was over 500 feet something Mantle did with regularity.
> 
> I know what psi is and this is not the kind of punch test Marciano was doing. It involved hitting a large pendulum. I don't know how hard Marciano hit in terms of Psi and I was mixed up about it, but so were you so shut the fuck up.
> 
> I thought 1000 psi would not move 1000 pounds *where you calculated wlads punch would knock 1000 pounds 13 meters into the air Ha!Ha!*  I may have been wrong, but at least I was closer then your caculations, wiz kid.


The sign Mark McGwire hit when he threw his hardest shot was 500 feet away and some people were saying it was still rising. (I didn't fully copy that post by accident about Mark)

About the bolded part
Your reading comprehension sucks btw, the article said Wlad his punch is like a Smart car going 45 km/h in which case *if* that was true he could punch 1000 pounds 13 meters in the air.
I already said that was clearly a hyperbole from the article.
My calculations weren't wrong, Ek=1/2*m*v^2 easy as shit. The article clearly gave a wrong example.

Also in a frictionless environment an airjet of 1000 psi will move an object horizontally, 1 pound or 1000 pounds. The only difference would be acceleration.
Though it won't move it vertically.

But psi is simply Pounds divided by the surface area in square inch.

Power = mass*acceleration

You can't calculate power with psi unless you have the surface area and the acceleration.
Nobody uses it to calculate power because you don't need pressure, you only need acceleration and mass.

Also about Mickey Mantle
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/art_hr.shtml
This article covers it pretty well, his distances are overstated (like with many hitters)
"Moving into the eighties, Mike Schmidt, Jim Rice, and Darryl Strawberry set the pace at a time when modern technology permitted us to better understand the limitations of the flight of a batted ball. The same home runs that had once been described as 500 footers were now being scientifically calculated in the 450-foot range."


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> The sign Mark McGwire hit when he threw his hardest shot was 500 feet away and some people were saying it was still rising. (I didn't fully copy that post by accident about Mark)
> 
> About the bolded part
> Your reading comprehension sucks btw, the article said Wlad his punch is like a Smart car going 45 km/h in which case *if* that was true he could punch 1000 pounds 13 meters in the air.
> ...


My copy of "Guinness Book of World Records" says otherwise I think I will take its word over yours. I think "Guinness Book of World Records" is more of an authority on these matters then yourself, no offence.

I already knew what psi was I was just mixed up on how much weight it would be able to move for a few minutes, and I still don't know how much weight it can move.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> My copy of "Guinness Book of World Records" says otherwise I think I will take its word over yours. I think "Guinness Book of World Records" is more of an authority on these matters then yourself, no offence.
> 
> I already knew what psi was I was just mixed up on how much weight it would be able to move for a few minutes, and I still don't know how much weight it can move.


The guinness record site doesn't say anything about thelongest shot but does tell the man who hit the fastest ball
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/2000/fastest-hit-finnish-baseball

But when you're shooting an airgun and the pressure is 1000 psi inside the gascan this will typically happen:





If punching power was measured in psi then that would have meant Wlad would barely be able to move a piece of plaster in some styrofoam.
Humans don't have some sort of internal gas tank so we can use pressure differences to propel our arms, so I don't get why people even think punching power is measured in psi.
It's not measured in psi and it will never be.

Edit:Even in guns psi is a worthless indicator for how much energy the bullet has.
A .45acp generates less psi than a 9mm yet carries more energy


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> The guinness record site doesn't say anything about thelongest shot but does tell the man who hit the fastest ball
> http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/2000/fastest-hit-finnish-baseball
> 
> But when you're shooting an airgun and the pressure is 1000 psi inside the gascan this will typically happen:
> ...


 I don't know where you come from, but where I come from we watch baseball and hockey and we don't talk about the fastest finish hit. I don't even know what that is and I have watched baseball all my life and I am 37 years old. Its well known that Mantle hit the longest home runs, its no secret. You can find information online backing up anything you want if you look long enough. I have actual books that I read and get my information from. Your trying to explain things about baseball to me? Are you American or Canadian? How much baseball do you watch? Because you sound like your from some other place. People that watch baseball don't talk about fastest hits they talk about how far it went.

Go phone gunniess book of world records and tell them they are wrong, wiz kid.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Also 1000 foot pounds is 1,356 joules of energy. You could apply 1,356 joules of energy by lifting a 200 pound person 5 feet, but it wouldn't do much damage. The damage of a punch depends on how quickly energy is transferred, so foot pounds is useless.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Also 1000 foot pounds is 1,356 joules of energy. You could apply 1,356 joules of energy by lifting a 200 pound person 5 feet, but it wouldn't do much damage. The damage of a punch depends on how quickly energy is transferred, so foot pounds is useless.


This test was done by the testing company of America at a military base by real scientists. And they figured out that Marciano punched hard enough to hit 1000 pounds 1 foot in the air. That is a fucking hard punch and Maricano's power stayed with him the entire 15 rounds. Have you ever lifted weights before or anything? 1000 pounds is a lot of weight to be moving with a punch. I knew this instantly I did not have to think about it like you are.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Yea man, he uppercutted that bag so hard it went 1 feet into the air. :clap::clap:


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> I think Lewis and Wlad are more just really good superheavies compared to someone like Valuev, that's the way I look at it anyway.


Wow. I missed this gem.

Lewis was absolutely a GREAT super heavy who belongs in the top 10 HEAVYWEIGHTS. Wlad belongs in the top 20.

Id love to see an argument against Lewis not being a great HW.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

No offence guys, but this thread is getting a bit bogged down in broscience. Bottom line is that Marciano hit freaking hard for a 185lb man, but his power against modern superheavyweights is unproven. Claiming he'd be able to do what he did to 200lbers to men thirty, forty or fifty pounds heavier is purely guesswork, and not founded in fact. Very few Cruiserweights carry their power up to heavy, and those that do are usually on the upper borderline of CW for most of their career, i.e. natural heavyweights boiling down to get an advantage. Marciano was small even for a Cruiserweight and he'd be fighting men potentially 65lbs heavier than him at HW; it's unrealistic to expect his power to remain undiminished. Not even Jackson's power carried up like that, and he only moved up a division or so.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Rocky would be outgunned against most super heavies and once his main advantage is gone he's fucked.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> I know what psi is and this is not the kind of punch test Marciano was doing. It involved hitting a large pendulum. I don't know how hard Marciano hit in terms of Psi and I was mixed up about it, but so were you so shut the fuck up.


And again bitch, here's an actual study about punching power.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=CF9HZVLTqYI3xqjbe8o-iA&bvm=bv.49478099,d.aWM

NOBODY uses psi for measuring punching power for boxers.
They have a dummy head with an acceleration meter in it and calculate peak force with the measured peak acceleration and the mass of the dummy head.

please cite me even one article where they use PSI for punching power and link me it.
Just 1 and I'll even help you a bit
http://scholar.google.nl/scholar?q=punching+power+psi&btnG=&hl=nl&as_sdt=0,5

Please realize your stupidity and then kill yourself.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

http://www.udel.edu/HNES/AT/Site/documents/HPL Journal Club/boxing(Pete).pdf
And another actual study that measures punching power the way I described it would be measured.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Ok genius, can you tell me how hard Marciano punched compared to other boxers that have had their punch tested? I thought you said Wladhad a 2000 psi punch and you figured that he hit far harder then Marciano. 

Then according to your calculations you figured Wlad would be able to punch 1000 pounds 13 meters into the air. Maybe you should get hired to test loony toon punches. Find 1000 pounds and try moving it around, its not like in the cartoons or comic books you watch.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Ok genius, can you tell me how hard Marciano punched compared to other boxers that have had their punch tested? I thought you said Wladhad a 2000 psi punch and you figured that he hit far harder then Marciano.
> 
> Then according to your calculations you figured Wlad would be able to punch 1000 pounds 13 meters into the air. Maybe you should get hired to test loony toon punches. Find 1000 pounds and try moving it around, its not like in the cartoons or comic books you watch.


Kanney, my man, you think Rock hit harder than Wlad or what?


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Ok genius, can you tell me how hard Marciano punched compared to other boxers that have had their punch tested? I thought you said Wladhad a 2000 psi punch and you figured that he hit far harder then Marciano.
> 
> Then according to your calculations you figured Wlad would be able to punch 1000 pounds 13 meters into the air. Maybe you should get hired to test loony toon punches. Find 1000 pounds and try moving it around, its not like in the cartoons or comic books you watch.


You were the first to mention psi you fucking idiot, I never said he had a 2000 psi punch the article mentioned his punch carried 1500 footpounds energy.
You're literally the most cancerous idiot around here.

And also your reading comprehension really sucks, I said according to the article it's like a Smart going 45 km/h*, a Smart going 45 km/h has enough kinetic energy to get 1000 pounds 13 meters in the air.
But I've said enough times already, yet you keep lying about what I said.

*the article probably meant that the peak force of Wlad his punch is like a Smart going 45km/h and not that his punch carries the kinetic energy of a Smart going 45km/h.

But keep intentionally misinterpretting my words and adding lies, maybe one day you'll choke in something and die an agonizing death.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

The only "fighter" who ever got his punching power tested by a psi machine was Ivan Drago which is pure fiction.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Kanney, my man, you think Rock hit harder than Wlad or what?


 Wladimir does not really believe in himself enough to do the type of damage Marciano did. Wlad can't let his hands go the way Marciano could. Marciano had tremendous self belief, more so than any other heavyweight all time. He could throw much harder shots then Wlad because he was fearless. Wladimir can't cut loose the way Marciano could, lets put it that way. Marciano did tremendous damage in the ring. And its well documented, his power was legit and their is evidence that Marciano may be the harder puncher of the two.

The punch Marciano landed on Layne sheered his teeth off at the gums and broke his jaw. Rocky broke Roland LaStarza's arms with his punches! LaStarza needed surgery to repair the chips and cracks on his elbows, and to repair his smashed blood vessels. Vindgo was punched into a coma and was paralyzed for life. Don Cockell was the British Champion, and although thought to be fat and out of shape, he was in great shape, he had a medical problem, which made him look a little chubby. He was taking so much punishment that he was vomiting inbetween rounds before being knocked out. None of the boxers Marciano fought were ever the same again besides maybe Moore. Marciano's power seemed to hurt big men just as much. Vindgo was 220 pounds and he felt Marciano's power more then anybody and was fucked up for life after facing Marciano.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Wladimir does not really believe in himself enough to do the type of damage Marciano did. Wlad can't let his hands go the way Marciano could. Marciano had tremendous self belief, more so than any other heavyweight all time. He could throw much harder shots then Wlad because he was fearless. Wladimir can't cut loose the way Marciano could, lets put it that way. Marciano did tremendous damage in the ring. And its well documented, his power was legit and their is evidence that Marciano may be the harder puncher of the two.
> 
> The punch Marciano landed on Layne sheered his teeth off at the gums and broke his jaw. Rocky broke Roland LaStarza's arms with his punches! LaStarza needed surgery to repair the chips and cracks on his elbows, and to repair his smashed blood vessels. Vindgo was punched into a coma and was paralyzed for life. Don Cockell was the British Champion, and although thought to be fat and out of shape, he was in great shape, he had a medical problem, which made him look a little chubby. He was taking so much punishment that he was vomiting inbetween rounds before being knocked out. None of the boxers Marciano fought were ever the same again besides maybe Moore. And his Marciano's power seemed to just as much damage to big men. *Vindgo was 220 pounds and he felt Marciano's power more then anybody and was fucked up for life after facing Marciano*.


:kidcuba carmine vingo weighed 189 pounds not 220.. joe frazier did hit harder than marciano


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

I thought he was bigger, but still Marciano did a lot of devastating damage. 

Wladimir is a very hard puncher also, but he does not let go the kind of power shots Marciano did.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Hasim Rahman was a harder puncher than Marciano. So were guys like Peter, Brewster, McCline, Briggs, Golota etc.


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## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

So what welterweights could Jimmy Wylde ko


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

After a certain size the extra weight and height stops really being a benefit. For instance Wlad and Lewis are really big guys, but have poor chins. A blown up cruiserweight Holyfield had a far better chin then either. Vitali and Fury are huge men, but don't have the power of many smaller fighters. Marciano is not as big as some heavyweights, but his power was great and so was his chin.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> After a certain size the extra weight and height stops really being a benefit. For instance Wlad and Lewis are really big guys, but have poor chins. A blown up cruiserweight Holyfield had a far better chin then either. Vitali and Fury are huge men, but don't have the power of many smaller fighters. Marciano is not as big as some heavyweights, but his power was great and so was his chin.


Duran's power and chin were also great, but it doesn't mean he'd be able to successfully compete at LHW. Rock was a heavyweight in name only, and while I agree that there is a certain size limit beyond which the benefits for the fighter begin to be outweighed by the problems I don't agree that that limit is as low as 185lbs. I think it's far higher at around 220/230 provided the fighter is naturally in shape at that size, and not a bloated mess. And then there are the exceptions like Lewis and Wlad who despite being huge men have great speed, snap and coordination to go along with their huge power, things which Rock wasn't particularly renowned for having.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Duran's power and chin were also great, but it doesn't mean he'd be able to successfully compete at LHW. Rock was a heavyweight in name only, and while I agree that there is a certain size limit beyond which the benefits for the fighter begin to be outweighed by the problems I don't agree that that limit is as low as 185lbs. I think it's far higher at around 220/230 provided the fighter is naturally in shape at that size, and not a bloated mess. And then there are the exceptions like Lewis and Wlad who despite being huge men have great speed, snap and coordination to go along with their huge power, things which Rock wasn't particularly renowned for having.


Marciano is a bigger guy then Duran so a 20 pound weight difference or something like this does not mean as much to Marciano. Not only that but there is diminishing returns after a certain size.

Marciano I think was the perfect fighting machine at 185 pounds. If Wladimir trained the way Marciano did his weight would be well under 240, well under. I am just saying that the size difference is not quite as much as their weights indicate.

Why have there not been more great big fighters like Lewis or Wladimir if it is such an advantage? Is it because they are so big or is it because Emanuel steward trained them? Before Emanuel started working with them they were both looking pretty vulnerable. Besides the super heavies that Emanuel trained there have not been many great big men.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

it is funny because some peple keep saying the bullshit that marciano weighed 185 pounds because his super training and he would have weighed 210 lol, marciano was a pork at 195 in 1969 in the computer fight, marciano was a natural 185 pounder perod. you can see an old rocky next to a ver young floyd patterson and rocky weighed around 205 here and he was pure fat, in another video you can see a peak fraziet next to patterson and frazier was in perfect shape at 208 and he looked even thicker than the fat old rocky, frazier and tyson were much bigger framed than rocky


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## rockyssplitnose (Jun 7, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Wladimir does not really believe in himself enough to do the type of damage Marciano did. Wlad can't let his hands go the way Marciano could. Marciano had tremendous self belief, more so than any other heavyweight all time. He could throw much harder shots then Wlad because he was fearless. Wladimir can't cut loose the way Marciano could, lets put it that way. Marciano did tremendous damage in the ring. And its well documented, his power was legit and their is evidence that Marciano may be the harder puncher of the two.
> 
> The punch Marciano landed on Layne sheered his teeth off at the gums and broke his jaw. Rocky broke Roland LaStarza's arms with his punches! LaStarza needed surgery to repair the chips and cracks on his elbows, and to repair his smashed blood vessels. Vindgo was punched into a coma and was paralyzed for life. Don Cockell was the British Champion, and although thought to be fat and out of shape, he was in great shape, he had a medical problem, which made him look a little chubby. He was taking so much punishment that he was vomiting inbetween rounds before being knocked out. None of the boxers Marciano fought were ever the same again besides maybe Moore. Marciano's power seemed to hurt big men just as much. Vindgo was 220 pounds and he felt Marciano's power more then anybody and was fucked up for life after facing Marciano.


This :deal


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## rockyssplitnose (Jun 7, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Marciano is a bigger guy then Duran so a 20 pound weight difference or something like this does not mean as much to Marciano. Not only that but there is diminishing returns after a certain size.
> 
> Marciano I think was the perfect fighting machine at 185 pounds. If Wladimir trained the way Marciano did his weight would be well under 240, well under. I am just saying that the size difference is not quite as much as their weights indicate.
> 
> Why have there not been more great big fighters like Lewis or Wladimir if it is such an advantage? Is it because they are so big or is it because Emanuel steward trained them? Before Emanuel started working with them they were both looking pretty vulnerable. Besides the super heavies that Emanuel trained there have not been many great big men.


And this! :deal


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## rockyssplitnose (Jun 7, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> it is funny because some peple keep saying the bullshit that marciano weighed 185 pounds because his super training and he would have weighed 210 lol, marciano was a pork at 195 in 1969 in the computer fight, marciano was a natural 185 pounder perod. you can see an old rocky next to a ver young floyd patterson and rocky weighed around 205 here and he was pure fat, in another video you can see a peak fraziet next to patterson and frazier was in perfect shape at 208 and he looked even thicker than the fat old rocky, frazier and tyson were much bigger framed than rocky


But not this :sad2:sad2


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Ali was not a humble man and its interesting what he had to say about Marciano.






Marciano on the flip side was more of a humble type fighter and here is his opinion on how the fight would go between the two of them.






Ali was not really a superheavy weight, but still he was a big man. And he thought Marciano would have a good chance of beating him.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Marciano is a bigger guy then Duran so a 20 pound weight difference or something like this does not mean as much to Marciano. Not only that but there is diminishing returns after a certain size.
> 
> Marciano I think was the perfect fighting machine at 185 pounds. If Wladimir trained the way Marciano did his weight would be well under 240, well under. I am just saying that the size difference is not quite as much as their weights indicate.
> 
> Why have there not been more great big fighters like Lewis or Wladimir if it is such an advantage? Is it because they are so big or is it because Emanuel steward trained them? Before Emanuel started working with them they were both looking pretty vulnerable. Besides the super heavies that Emanuel trained there have not been many great big men.


Even when you take into account the sizes of the two fighters being compared, 20lbs is not as big a gap as 60lbs, which is what Rocky would be facing against someone like Wlad. That's like Matthysse fighting Mikkel Kessler in relative terms.

Like I said, I agree with you that there are diminishing returns after a certain size, but I don't think that size is as low as 185, or even 200, but closer to about 220/230. That's when fighters start to get noticeably slower and more ponderous (though the emergence of the modern athletic superheavyweight might force us to reevaluate even that goalpost).

Marciano is P4P a very dangerous man, but the fact that he was undefeated in his time does not mean that he was utterly invincible, or that the laws of nature wouldn't have applied to him the same as everyone else. He trained the way he trained because that's what he felt most comfortable with, just as any successful boxer does. Why would Wlad want to train like Rock when he has a totally different body type and fighting style? Is the man out of shape? No. Does his weight hinder him in some way? Hasn't seemed to so far? Would he be a substantially more effective fighter at 215lbs or whatever? I highly doubt that.

Wlad and Lewis owe a good deal of their success to Manny, I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that. But they still have to have the required athleticism and skill level to implement the style they adopt. Both men were already extremely athletic in the first place; Manny helped refine them and iron out the rough edges. He wouldn't have been able to do the same to say a Carnera or Willard because neither man was athletic enough to pull off; very few big men in the past were.

True world class superheavyweights aren't common, I don't think anyone's said that, but when they're present they're very hard to beat.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Ali was not a humble man and its interesting what he had to say about Marciano.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ali was being nice because rocky was died.. and still he said that he would have won.. ali in his prime in the same era of rocky... he would have told him tons of crap. marciano had a lot of heart but he was not naturally gifted enough to beat ali.too small, too slow,too short, easy to outbox... ali all the way


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Even when you take into account the sizes of the two fighters being compared, 20lbs is not as big a gap as 60lbs, which is what Rocky would be facing against someone like Wlad. That's like Matthysse fighting Mikkel Kessler in relative terms.
> 
> Like I said, I agree with you that there are diminishing returns after a certain size, but I don't think that size is as low as 185, or even 200, but closer to about 220/230. That's when fighters start to get noticeably slower and more ponderous (though the emergence of the modern athletic superheavyweight might force us to reevaluate even that goalpost).
> 
> ...


You seem to think there is something special about Wlad and Lewis and that they are different then many other big fighters. Well the same can be said for Marciano he was a very special fighter, more so then Wlad or Lewis imo.

I think the weight Marciano fought at would be the best weight for him. I am just saying a man that runs up to 15 miles a day along with other intensive training and does not lift weights and weighs in at close to 190 pounds is a big strong man.

You say true superheavyweights are hard to beat, but Marciano proved himself to be harder to beat then Lewis or Wlad. I think he would knock them out ! he is not going to settle for losing he is going to make it into a real fight. And Lewis or Wlad can not fight with Marciano they would get their brains bashed in worse then the other times.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> You seem to think there is something special about Wlad and Lewis and that they are different then many other big fighters. Well the same can be said for Marciano he was a very special fighter, more so then Wlad or Lewis imo.
> 
> I think the weight Marciano fought at would be the best weight for him. I am just saying a man that runs up to 15 miles a day along with other intensive training and does not lift weights and weighs in at close to 190 pounds is a big strong man.
> 
> You say true superheavyweights are hard to beat, but Marciano proved himself to be harder to beat then Lewis or Wlad. I think he would knock them out ! he is not going to settle for losing he is going to make it into a real fight. And Lewis or Wlad can not fight with Marciano they would get their brains bashed in worse then the other times.


Of course there's something special about Lewis and Wlad. That's obvious to anyone with eyes. Disagree? Show me a big man from Rocky's era throwing fluid combinations like Wlad did against Mercer. Show me a comparable performance to Lewis destroying Ruddock or Golota. The reason these two are constantly being brought up is because prior to their emergence you just didn't see really huge men doing what they're doing. It was almost all lumbering oafish giants of the Carnera, Abe Simon type. Athletic, well schooled giants are a relatively modern phenomenon. 190lbs might be a big strong man in an everyday sense, but these guys would dwarf him, with in many cases superior speed and general athletic talent, as well as the ability to make their vastly superior reach count. It's ludicrous to think Marciano lays a finger on them, sorry.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Of course there's something special about Lewis and Wlad. That's obvious to anyone with eyes. Disagree? Show me a big man from Rocky's era throwing fluid combinations like Wlad did against Mercer. Show me a comparable performance to Lewis destroying Ruddock or Golota. The reason these two are constantly being brought up is because prior to their emergence you just didn't see really huge men doing what they're doing. It was almost all lumbering oafish giants of the Carnera, Abe Simon type. Athletic, well schooled giants are a relatively modern phenomenon. 190lbs might be a big strong man in an everyday sense, but these guys would dwarf him, with in many cases superior speed and general athletic talent, as well as the ability to make their vastly superior reach count. It's ludicrous to think Marciano lays a finger on them, sorry.


They are special fighters also, but I don't rate their talent as high as you do.

You think its so ludicrous that Marciano could lay a finger on them? Yet Mercer was able to pressure Lewis and hit him all night long and the fight was close to a draw. Marciano's pressure is on a whole different level along with his punching power. Past prime Holyfield also fought Lewis to a near draw. and Mccall and Rahman knocked him out. Vitali was also having his way with Lewis and had him in his pocket till he was cut.

Wladimir was stopped three times by fighters that were no where near Marciano's level and Marciano had 6 fights against atgs, Wladimir has never beat an atg and you think its ludicrous that Marciano would be able to lay a finger on him?

Marciano had a fight where his nose was split by an illegal elbow and still found a way to win. And he had a close fight with Walcott where he was blinded by some foreign substance, he was unstoppable. Nobody could keep him off them and they all enjoyed longer reaches.

I think you are underestimating how good Marciano was. I can understand you thinking that Lewis or Wlad would win, but a fighter of Marciano's ability would at least trouble them and in my opinion knock them out cold.


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

kenny black said:


> They are special fighters also, but I don't rate their talent as high as you do.
> 
> You think its so ludicrous that Marciano could lay a finger on them? Yet Mercer was able to pressure Lewis and hit him all night long and the fight was close to a draw. Marciano's pressure is on a whole different level along with his punching power. Past prime Holyfield also fought Lewis to a near draw. and Mccall and Rahman knocked him out. Vitali was also having his way with Lewis and had him in his pocket till he was cut.
> 
> ...


Eh? Mercer at best won 3 rounds, 4 if your generous. As for Holyfield, that was so one sided I don't how you could justify a draw.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> Eh? Mercer at best won 3 rounds, 4 if your generous. As for Holyfield, that was so one sided I don't how you could justify a draw.


Most unbiased fans consider the fight with Mercer a very close fight and same goes for the second Holyfield fight.


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Most unbiased fans consider the fight with Mercer a very close fight and same goes for the second Holyfield fight.


Yes but I'm not biased, Holyfield just wasn't even close to warrant a draw and sure as hell the Mercer fight either.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

rocky never defeated a super heavyweight.

the only real heavyweight he ever faced was an old Joe Louis. His entire career could have been fought in the cw division.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> Eh? Mercer at best won 3 rounds, 4 if your generous. As for Holyfield, that was so one sided I don't how you could justify a draw.


Mercer won more rounds than that. Don't be stupid. that was a close fight.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> Yes but I'm not biased, Holyfield just wasn't even close to warrant a draw and sure as hell the Mercer fight either.


Most ringside reporters scored that fight for Holyfield, so it was at least a close fight. I scored it for Holyfield, but I thought it squared things up because Lewis was robbed in the first fight.


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

kenny black said:


> Most ringside reporters scored that fight for Holyfield, so it was at least a close fight. I scored it for Holyfield, but I thought it squared things up because Lewis was robbed in the first fight.


And a few ringside reporters also scored it a draw in the first match, hardly a compelling case when Lennox wasn't a well received figure at the time in American dominated sports. I could give Holyfield the benefit of the doubt with some of the rounds between 5 to 7 but Lennox stuck to his jab for the majority of the fight. The 12th was close and could of gone either way.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> And a few ringside reporters also scored it a draw in the first match, hardly a compelling case when Lennox wasn't a well received figure at the time in American dominated sports. I could give Holyfield the benefit of the doubt with some of the rounds between 5 to 7 but Lennox stuck to his jab for the majority of the fight. The 12th was close and could of gone either way.


I remember he almost knocked out Lewis in the 3rd round. Some of the rounds were pretty close I liked Holyfield's work more he was the aggressor and landed the harder shots through the fight.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Most unbiased fans consider the fight with Mercer a very close fight and same goes for the second Holyfield fight.


:rofl ..

Mercer was 230+ Pounds. Rocky was 180. Mercer make Rocky look like a midget. 
Lewis won 7 of 10 rounds. It wasn't a 'disputed decision' that's just Lewis haters talking. It was a close fight only because Mercer did better than expected.

Holyfield was dominated by Lennox in the 1st fight. The 2nd fight don't even count because Lewis destroyed Holyfield 10-2 in the first one. Lewis also beat Holyfield 8-4 or 7-5 in the 2nd one. You merge the two fights and it's a clear Lewis victory.

Vitali was Lennox's bitch. Lennox was shot,fat,unfit,and unmotivated. He still made Vitali hang on for dear life during the 2nd half of that fight.
If the fight had gone on, Lennox will fucking kill Vitali. Vitali's eye balls was falling out.....

Lol.

Prime Lewis KO Vitali.
Prime Lewis KO Wlad
Prime Lewis KO Marciano

Lewis avenged Rahman's defeat.. also he was past prime against Rahman.

Stop talking about Lennox and getting me into this thread. I have zero interest in Rocky Marciano. Zero.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> :rofl ..
> 
> Mercer was 230+ Pounds. Rocky was 180. Mercer make Rocky look like a midget.
> Lewis won 7 of 10 rounds. It wasn't a 'disputed decision' that's just Lewis haters talking. It was a close fight only because Mercer did better than expected.
> ...


The Mercer - Lewis fight was incredibly close. Don't pretend. I know you have some sort of homosexual obsession with Lennox but that's the reality. Lennox got KO'd by a crack addict. Shhh only dreams now.


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

kenny black said:


> I remember he almost knocked out Lewis in the 3rd round. Some of the rounds were pretty close I liked Holyfield's work more he was the aggressor and landed the harder shots through the fight.


He threw a right hand which landed after Lewis dropped his hand for what it seemed a lazy jab, nowhere did his legs buckle even after Lewis covering up and taking a few backstops does not constitute almost being knocked out.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> He threw a right hand which landed after Lewis dropped his hand for what it seemed a lazy jab, nowhere did his legs buckle even after Lewis covering up and taking a few backstops does not constitute almost being knocked out.


 He only just missed the finishing touch with a right hand that missed by only a whisker. Anyway the second Lewis Holyfield fight is a little off topic.

I was making a point to its Ovah who said it is ludicrous to think Marciano would be able to lay a finger on Lewis. Many fighters below Marciano Level gave Lewis tough fights some even knocking him out cold. I think at least Marciano would give Lewis a tough fight and the way Marciano punches I think he would knock him out.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> :rofl ..
> 
> Mercer was 230+ Pounds. Rocky was 180. Mercer make Rocky look like a midget.
> Lewis won 7 of 10 rounds. It wasn't a 'disputed decision' that's just Lewis haters talking. It was a close fight only because Mercer did better than expected.
> ...


:lol: probably you was sleeping during the fight


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Mercer won more rounds than that. Don't be stupid. that was a close fight.


So you think it was a draw at the very least? (Remember that it was a 10 rounder, not a 12 rounder.)


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

kenny black said:


> *He only just missed the finishing touch with a right hand that missed by only a whisker.* Anyway the second Lewis Holyfield fight is a little off topic.
> 
> I was making a point to its Ovah who said it is ludicrous to think Marciano would be able to lay a finger on Lewis. Many fighters below Marciano Level gave Lewis tough fights some even knocking him out cold. I think at least Marciano would give Lewis a tough fight and the way Marciano punches I think he would knock him out.


:lol:


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> :lol: probably you was sleeping during the fight


No.. I watched that fight 100 times.
Vitali dominated 1 round. The 2nd.
Round 1 and 3 were close.(Could have gone either way) 4 and 5 were Lennox rounds. 6 was a Vitali round until Lennox hit him with that upper cut that would have led Vitali to getting KTFO in the 7th if corrupt doctors didn't save his ass.

The bottom line is this:
260 Pound bloated and corpse Lennox beat PRIME Vitali.
Imagine what a Prime Lennox can do?


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

TKO6 have been done to death. 
The truth is.. that was a horrible version of Lennox and he won fair and square.
Vitali was never and will never be in Lennox's class. 

This is besides the point.

Some of you seem to have a weird infatuation with Marciano.

Marciano was a great fighter.. I'm simply saying I will favor Lewis to beat him 2 out of 3 times. What's wrong with that?

Are you guys saying you guys will bet your life on Marciano beating Lewis 2 out of 3 times? Lying. 


Now Wlad is different.. because Wlad's chin make Lennox's look like Mccall's... Wlad folds under pressure and instantly cracks the moment someone get inside on him.
Marciano will KTFO out of Wlad 10 out of 10 times. Of that I'm certain.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Lennox ate big punchers up.

The fact of the matter is this: Lennox Lewis have beaten more big punchers than any Heavyweight in history.
This is the 'historical' section, so I don't feel like I need to point out that the likes of Ruddock,Morrison,Golota,Tua,Bruno were actually all skilled big punching Heavyweights. 
Lewis also beat a very underrated Shannon Briggs in a vicious slug fest. Lennox have shown the ability to box,brawl,and control the distance. We take the BEST versions of every fighter in a H2H. As for Rahman, people have to realize this guy was freakishly strong and in the full prime of his fighting career.

They say Rocky punch hard. But I honestly don't know if he punched harder than the modern 228-250 Pound guys Lewis beat. I don't know if Rocky punched harder than Ruddock,Morrison,Bruno,Rahman etc... I think it is very debatable.

I realize this is historical and Rocky is a favorite, but we have to be realistic. The guy was 180 pounds.. maybe 190. We are basically talking about a Cruiserweight against the greatest Superheavyweight of all times. To say Rocky would have beaten Lennox is elevating Rocky to the very top of boxing's food chain. I just don't buy it.


This is the BEST possible scenario I see for Rocky and keep in mind this is Rocky fighting his heart and soul out:

vs Lewis
1-2

vs Bowe
1-2

vs Vitali
1-2

vs Wlad
3-0

I think Tony Tucker will also beat Rocky 1 out of 3 times. 

A more realistic scenario is Rocky going 0-3 against everyone with the exception of Wladimir.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> So you think it was a draw at the very least? (Remember that it was a 10 rounder, not a 12 rounder.)


I don't remember my score. Might have to watch & score it again.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

actually i think that lewis would beat rocky 3/3 times, but i still say that you was sleeping in teh vitali-lewis fight if you say that vitali was his bitch... lewis was very lucky for the cut.. if not he was going to lose by decision.. vitali was younger, bigger and lewis had alot of problems to handle him in the clinch and lewis could not ko him with a single shot


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Lennox ate big punchers up.
> 
> The fact of the matter is this: Lennox Lewis have beaten more big punchers than any Heavyweight in history.
> This is the 'historical' section, so I don't feel like I need to point out that the likes of Ruddock,Morrison,Golota,Tua,Bruno were actually all skilled big punching Heavyweights.
> ...


vs wladimir rocky wins 3-0?but tucker would beat him once? hhaha you are a stupid fanboy biased and you are making it based on your favourite fighters, obviously you don´t like wladimir


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> This is the BEST possible scenario I see for Rocky and keep in mind this is Rocky fighting his heart and soul out:
> 
> vs Lewis
> 1-2
> ...


The thing with Bowe is that he would fight Rocky's game and would brawl with him. That was Rocky's thing. Bowe wouldn't consistently jab on the back foot no matter how many times Eddie Futch sternly commanded him to. Bowe got stunned by Cooper early for fighting like a dumbass so why would Rocky be any different when Rocky is superior to Cooper? Rocky would sling and connect those huge overhand rights and Bowe's lack of defense would make him pay for it. I see Rocky stopping him late where his great stamina comes into play.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> They are special fighters also, but I don't rate their talent as high as you do.
> 
> You think its so ludicrous that Marciano could lay a finger on them? Yet Mercer was able to pressure Lewis and hit him all night long and the fight was close to a draw. Marciano's pressure is on a whole different level along with his punching power. Past prime Holyfield also fought Lewis to a near draw. and Mccall and Rahman knocked him out. Vitali was also having his way with Lewis and had him in his pocket till he was cut.
> 
> ...


I don't see what any of the fighters you've listed have in common with Marciano, either physically or stylistically. Mercer, Rahman and McCall were all solid 230lbers, and Vitali was a giant. Holyfield was far faster and sharper than Marciano even past prime. It doesn't matter how much "greater" Marciano was (a wooly and unquantifiable term) he was still nowhere near big enough, fast enough or skilled enough to trouble Lewis, unless he caught him on a _really_ bad day. There's just nothing he did during his career that leads me to believe he'd be able to handle a fighter like Lewis. Lewis on the other hand toyed with shorter fighters more often than not, and bigger punchers than Marciano too.

Wlad again was only stopped by very big guys, twice due to gassing out (one of the problems still facing certain superheavies) and once because he was battered by a fast handed southpaw with a penchant for being extremely dangerous in the opening rounds. Again, not too many similarities to Marciano. You're using the words "level" and "ATG" as though that automatically gets them the win over someone whom a lesser fighter has beaten. Lesser regarded fighters can get wins over guys that much better fighters than themselves are able to do. Evander lost to Ruiz, Toney lost to Peter, Tyson lost to Danny Williams. Sure, they were all past prime, but isn't that the case for many of Rock's more recognisable opponents? Joe Louis wasn't exactly a spring chicken when Rock beat him, was he?

You're trying to rate Rocky like a top trumps card. ATGs beaten, greatness level, unstoppableness etc. Boxing doesn't work like that. Wlad and Lewis beat Rock because of stylistic factors and physical advantages. That's all it comes down to. If that sounds disrespectful or ignorant or whatever, I'm sorry, but that's how I see it, and nothing I've seen of Rock makes me think otherwise.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Rocky never faced someone with a right hand like Lewis.


"But, but"
No, balding Louis didn't have right hand.


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

kenny black said:


> He only just missed the finishing touch with a right hand that missed by only a whisker. Anyway the second Lewis Holyfield fight is a little off topic.
> 
> I was making a point to its Ovah who said it is ludicrous to think Marciano would be able to lay a finger on Lewis. Many fighters below Marciano Level gave Lewis tough fights some even knocking him out cold. I think at least Marciano would give Lewis a tough fight and the way Marciano punches I think he would knock him out.


Finishing touch? He was hardly buckled from the OH right Holyfield threw and apart from being backed up momentarily towards the end of the around, no one objectively can say Holyfield almost had him out of there.

I was going to reply to the bottom part of your reply but as Ovah mentioned, Marciano barely shares any qualities with those opponents that did beat Lewis.


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## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> I don't see what any of the fighters you've listed have in common with Marciano, either physically or stylistically. Mercer, Rahman and McCall were all solid 230lbers, and Vitali was a giant. Holyfield was far faster and sharper than Marciano even past prime. It doesn't matter how much "greater" Marciano was (a wooly and unquantifiable term) he was still nowhere near big enough, fast enough or skilled enough to trouble Lewis, unless he caught him on a _really_ bad day. There's just nothing he did during his career that leads me to believe he'd be able to handle a fighter like Lewis. Lewis on the other hand toyed with shorter fighters more often than not, and bigger punchers than Marciano too.
> 
> Wlad again was only stopped by very big guys, twice due to gassing out (one of the problems still facing certain superheavies) and once because he was battered by a fast handed southpaw with a penchant for being extremely dangerous in the opening rounds. Again, not too many similarities to Marciano. You're using the words "level" and "ATG" as though that automatically gets them the win over someone whom a lesser fighter has beaten. Lesser regarded fighters can get wins over guys that much better fighters than themselves are able to do. Evander lost to Ruiz, Toney lost to Peter, Tyson lost to Danny Williams. Sure, they were all past prime, but isn't that the case for many of Rock's more recognisable opponents? Joe Louis wasn't exactly a spring chicken when Rock beat him, was he?
> 
> You're trying to rate Rocky like a top trumps card. ATGs beaten, greatness level, unstoppableness etc. Boxing doesn't work like that. Wlad and Lewis beat Rock because of stylistic factors and physical advantages. That's all it comes down to. If that sounds disrespectful or ignorant or whatever, I'm sorry, but that's how I see it, and nothing I've seen of Rock makes me think otherwise.


Ok, we are starting to go in circles now.

I could go on further, but I don't want to go in circles for many pages. I have said all I have to say about Marciano against Superheavyweights, for now. You know what I believe Marciano would do to them. I have explained all that I think needs to be explained on why I think he would beat them.


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## SP_Mauker (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Lennox ate big punchers up.
> 
> The fact of the matter is this: Lennox Lewis have beaten more big punchers than any Heavyweight in history.
> This is the 'historical' section, so I don't feel like I need to point out that the likes of Ruddock,Morrison,Golota,Tua,Bruno were actually all skilled big punching Heavyweights.
> ...


:rofl :rofl

good post good post,kills Wlad easily..goes under the jab and has quick enough feet to get in and throw the overhand right rather then walking straight into Wlad... Something made in the USA never breaks 1/100 as something made in China


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

He can try brawling with bowe but he will get sparked.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

kenny black said:


> Ok, we are starting to go in circles now.
> 
> I could go on further, but I don't want to go in circles for many pages. I have said all I have to say about Marciano against Superheavyweights, for now. You know what I believe Marciano would do to them. I have explained all that I think needs to be explained on why I think he would beat them.


Part of the problem in imagining how either man (Rocky and Lennox) would do against the other is the fact that they never fought anyone with a similar style or dimensions. Lennox probably came closest with Tua, Tyson and maybe Rahman (who fought from a similarly low stance and had a vicious overhand right). Mercer brought the pressure, but it was a different pressure from the kind that Rocky would bring, more a case of just walking through Lennox's best shots to land his own, something I'm not confident the smaller and less resilient Rocky would be able to do. Rocky, on the other hand, never had to take out a quality superheavy in his entire career, or even just a regular good one like Carnera, Willard, etc. I don't see why he would have any particular problems against one of the more mundane giants, but when you get to the upper echelons it becomes a whole other ballpark.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

the topic rocky marciano is going too far, HIS HITTING POWER IS ABSOLUTELY OVERRATED IN OVERALL TERMS, HE HAD HAMMERS FOR HIS SIZE, BUT IM PRETTY SURE THAT THE HEAVY VERSION OF ALI IN MANILLA IN 1975 WHO WEIGHED AROUND 224 POUNDS WITH HIS VERY BEST RIGHT HAND DID NOT HIT MUCH LESS HARD THAN ROCKY.A 40 YEARS OLD FORMER MW AND LHW GLASS CHIN ARCHIE MOORE LASTED 9 ROUND WITH MARCIANO (AND DROPPED HIM BADLY )AND A PRETTY GREEN FLOYD PATTERSON STOPPED HIM IN 5,KENNE SIMMONS TKO IN 8,ART HENRRY TKO IN 9,GINO BUONVINO TKO IN 10,LASTARZA SPLITDECISION,TED LOWRY DECISION IN 10,DON MOGARD DECISION IN 10,DON COCKEL TKO IN 9, ABSOLUTELY OVERRATED THE POWER OF MARCIANO!!, TONS OF BUMS LASTED VERY LONG WITH HIM AND EVEN THE DISTANCE WALCOTT AND MOORE HAD A PRETTY WEAK CHIN AND THEY LASTED VERY LONG


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## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

Well I'm a huge Marciano fan, but he'd be giving away so much size against some of these better big men. But it's not just the size, but that he is handicapped by his lack of explosiveness and speed getting inside. He and Tyson shared similar dimensions, but the difference in how they went about beating their opponents couldn't be more different, thanks to very different skillsets. 
A small 185 lb. slugger who relied on a chin, a punch and massive heart (and skill) is going to have a hell of a time chopping down some of these big men, and he is going to absorb punishment like never before in trying to do so.

But who cares really? The man is a legend and will always be one. It doesn't take anything away from what he achieved in the ring and it doesn't diminish his status as a great. I don't think anyone serious about the sport would honestly give a hoot about how he'd fare in some silly mythical matchup. I don't.


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## freelaw (May 20, 2013)

Theron said:


>


Yep.. To be any competitive vs super HW's being as short as Tyson, you have to be bulit like Tyson or maybe fight like Chris Byrd. Marciano wasn't capable of neither. Him vs Golota wouldn't even be a fair fight, say what you want.. He would be helpless and beaten into a bloody pulp, I'm afraid.

Also, they've had nothing like the 90's-00's super HW's in the 50's and earlier. Carnera and such were nowhere near a fighter like Golota in skillset, speed or coordination.


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