# How would Canelo or GGG fare against a prime Toney?



## KOTF (Jun 3, 2013)

Say GGG or Canelo got the Toney of the McCallum re-match, how do they fare?


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

:lol:


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## KOTF (Jun 3, 2013)

Motherfucker I messed up the poll, there's supposed to be a fourth option where both beat Toney


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## Nucking Futs (Jul 12, 2013)

Quite poorly.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Toney takes the play from Canelo. Throws first, slips enough to miss a lot of counters, and wins an entertaining fight.

Stylistically, a match with GGG is interesting. Toney is perfectly capable of trying to stay in the pocket, slip, and fire counters. That's dangerous against a combination puncher but with some well timed jabs as GGG comes in and some solid counters, he likely makes GGG slow down and think before rushing in. Once he slows, Toney dictates the pace and the fight.


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Canelo wins at a catchweight of 154.000001 with a rehydration clause of 154.000002.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Toney has a stylistic edge against both, ko's nelo might even ko ggg. His power at 160 was legit. Gggs power will be nullified by his slips and iron chin


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm not going to apologize Hands of Iron.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

dyna said:


> I'm not going to apologize Hands of Iron.


DELETE THIS


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Toney definitely KOs Canelo in like 6 rounds with no problems at all. I think Golovkin does slightly better v Toney and gets stopped in like 11 rounds, but hes more competitive than Canelo.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> I'm not going to apologize Hands of Iron.


About what I'd expect from a fucking clog wog like you. :-(


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Instead of this









It's this


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Alvarez-Toney would not even be fun.
Both counter punchers, except one is better in literally every way and also happens to be bigger.

Is there one thing Alvarez does better than Toney?
Toney could throw punches as short as his arms allowed, so not even that.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Alvarez-Toney would not even be fun.
> Both counter punchers, except one is better in literally every way and also happens to be bigger.
> 
> Is there one thing Alvarez does better than Toney?
> Toney could throw punches as short as his arms allowed, so not even that.


A motivated Toney? No. It goes as long as Toney wants it to. A Toney who's just there for a stay busy fight he might make 10


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Is there one thing Alvarez does better than Toney?


No.


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Alvarez-Toney would not even be fun.
> Both counter punchers, except one is better in literally every way and also happens to be bigger.
> 
> *Is there one thing Alvarez does better than Toney?*
> Toney could throw punches as short as his arms allowed, so not even that.


Even at being a Mexican warrior, Toney would probably win that honor.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Honestly for me Canelo beating Toney would probably trump all the other big upsets like Tyson-Douglas, Wlad-Sanders, Morrison-Bennt, Ishida-Kirkland.
At least with those fights I can see contrasting styles, untapped potential and shattered glass jaws.

Canelo-Toney have a very similar style, they have the same weaknesses. Toney is just 1-2 leagues ahead in every department.
I don't see the sunday punch, I don't see Canelo having the ability + physical dimensions, there's no untapped potential.

Toney would just be facing a mirror image of himself except without the flexibility, without the speed, without the power, without the chin, without the armlenght, without the footspeed (not that Toney was Duran in that respect), without the skills, without the instincts.
It's not that Alvarez is that bad, he just doesn't have anything to offer against a superior counter puncher.

I can see worse fighters than Alvarez maybe beating Toney with a lucky sunday punch and following up, but Canela simply does not have that option. He's predictable, he's powerless, he's a bitch.


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Canelo has about as much in common with James Toney as JMM did with FMjr (Which i had seen before). Just because both guys like to counter punch does not make them similar. Toney was able to fight in the pocket like very few others. Toney could stand in front of you, closely too, and still make you miss while shooting sharp hard punches back.

Anyway, James Toney would beat both at 160. Like the others, I agree he'd have an easier time against Canelo than GGG.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> Canelo has about as much in common with James Toney as JMM did with FMjr (Which i had seen before). Just because both guys like to counter punch does not make them similar. Toney was able to fight in the pocket like very few others. Toney could stand in front of you, closely too, and still make you miss while shooting sharp hard punches back.
> 
> Anyway, James Toney would beat both at 160. Like the others, I agree he'd have an easier time against Canelo than GGG.


Toney fought like that in the pocket because he was just too relaxed and didn't bother moving away.
Canela is too stiff for that.


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## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

dyna said:


> Toney fought like that in the pocket because he was just too relaxed and didn't bother moving away.
> Canela is too stiff for that.


yeah. It's amazing just how relaxed Toney would be in the ring. Even when he was closing in on HW, he still looked cool and calm for the most part in the ring.


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

why is canelo even mentioned here? you can make a case for golovkin as his true barometer is still unknown until he fights a james degale but alvarez has no business being in this conversation

hopefully gbp fuks up and signs lemuiex to 160 in september so people here will understand that they know nothing about boxing when david in all likelihood just walks through alvarez


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> yeah. It's amazing just how relaxed Toney would be in the ring. Even when he was closing in on HW, he still looked cool and calm for the most part in the ring.


that is what happens when you possess an iron chin.

when the iron is cracked for the first time you dont fight so calm anymore. jones jr got his iron cracked by tarver and then tried that calm shit with johnson and then proceeded to get it cracked again.


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## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

Toney would make Canelo look like a fool. I don't see him beating GGG though, Toney had a bad habit of fighting lazy


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

paloalto00 said:


> Toney would make Canelo look like a fool. I don't see him beating GGG though, Toney had a bad habit of fighting lazy


How did he beat better fighters than GGG then?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

dyna said:


> I'm not going to apologize Hands of Iron.


:lol: Smacked all over.


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## DBerry (Jun 11, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> How did he beat better fighters than GGG then?


Like Montel Griffin?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DBerry said:


> Like Montel Griffin?


Like Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn.


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## KOTF (Jun 3, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Like Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn.


Also has a stoppage over Danny Garcia


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Like Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn.


Arguably the best pair of wins in the sport since.


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## DBerry (Jun 11, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Like Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn.


Hahaha, yeah, Vasily Jirov too, just couldn't help throw a little grenade in there.

I thing Golovkin would struggle with McCallum and Toney, I don't know how a fight with Nunn from when Toney fought him would go, perhaps GGG would stop him, but all of those would be very good fights.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Arguably the best pair of wins in the sport since.





Hands of Iron said:


> Arguably the best pair of wins in the sport since.


I watched the first two Toney/McCallum fights again today. Great great fights. I get excited as fuck each time I see them, especially the first fight which is on my top ten favorite fights of all time.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> I watched the first two Toney/McCallum fights again today. Great great fights. I get excited as fuck each time I see them, especially the first fight which is on my top ten favorite fights of all time.


Fuck, was just on this with Bogo. These guys could beat anyone in history at 154-160 (160-168 for James) that will either come to them and/or stage a fight at ring centre and stand their ground. The ring craft is just too fucking exceptional and top tier level of all-time. Their weakness(es) are their slower feet and kryptonite is exceptionally gifted pure boxers with fluid footwork and serious ring navigational skills which is why McCallum lost big to another *elite* MW talent of the era in Sumbu Kalambay the first go-round and Herol Graham was a challenging affair (which I thought he still took clearly). Mike was definitely the more complete and active between them although Toney's infighting ability is arguably top five on film. It's really easy to see why they made for such great, tactical fights.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Kalambay would make a complete tool out of Golovkin provided he doesn't get caught with something monstrous, which unfortunately holds him back just as much now in H2H as it did his career then. It can't be ruled out, even though the guy could arguably be placed amongst the top five most defensively talented fighters of the last 50 years.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Mike McCallum at 154 lbs.


:nono :yikes :nono

@PityTheFool


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## noslackgiven (Apr 19, 2016)

paloalto00 said:


> Toney would make Canelo look like a fool. I don't see him beating GGG though, Toney had a bad habit of fighting lazy


You're just used to seeing Golovkin beat up guys he knows aren't a threat.

GGG's defense is lazy.

He doesn't bring his punches back...he drops them then he brings them up...plus...he pulls back with his hands down.

You can't do that against a dangerous technician like James Toney.
Toney's stance had defense built fight into it.

Golovkin couldn't even make past Wade without getting knots under his eyes.

Toney turns GGG's lights out.


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## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

GGG would be competitive and give a good accounting of himself. Canelo would get his ass beat.


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## noslackgiven (Apr 19, 2016)

Atlanta said:


> GGG would be competitive and give a good accounting of himself. Canelo would get his ass beat.


They both get their asses beat..


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## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Toney beats both, Canelo gets beaten pillar to post. I cannot think of a worse matchup for Golovkin than Toney, he'd struggle big time although I see him taking a few round on route to losing by decision.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

They both get dicked. Canelo probably gets cut down picked apart and stopped


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :nono :yikes :nono
> 
> @PityTheFool


Leonard, KO

like this


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DOM5153 said:


> Toney beats both, Canelo gets beaten pillar to post. *I cannot think of a worse matchup for Golovkin than Toney*, he'd struggle big time although I see him taking a few round on route to losing by decision.


You'd think so, but I'm actually confident of McCallum beating him just as if not more clearly than Toney despite peaking at 154 and carrying less power up to 160 because he's no less tremendous against fighters that stand in with him, more complete overall, possesses a better jab and higher work rate. Mike was a boxer-puncher (albeit with slow feet) adept at every range, Toney was naturally a more stationary, defensive counter-punching, inside fighter :lol: - I don't think anyone crashes more precise, crispy clean eye-catching counters on him than James would -- and he'd throttle him on some seriously ILL shit -- but he tended to fight too patient at times and it made rounds closer than they ought to have been. I'd imagine Golovkin fighting in the most measured and defensively responsible manner he could here which probably eliminates the idea of an accumulative beatdown sort of stoppage people envision unless James is really up to taking the initiative and it isn't as if he wasn't capable, give him a nasty cut or something.



tommygun711 said:


> Leonard, KO
> 
> like this


Shit. :lol:

I don't think it would be all too dissimilar to the Curry fight though, aside from the fact that Leonard wouldn't get caught like that and if he did, he doesn't hit the canvas. Maybe. Dude was an absolute DOG in his prime if you were at the level to draw it out of him. McCallum is going to have serious problems adjusting to his speed IMO and it isn't one-shot a time Floyd speed, it's bad intentions combination speed. Real combos, not flurries. Based on Kalule, I see very little difference between a 147 & 154 Leonard, he's fucking lethal and as complete a fighter as there's ever been.

Speaking of The Donald -- Anyone doubting that dude's ability should take a gander at how he fared against Mike before he made one error that McCallum pounced all over and got caught with a devastating left hook. Brought his game up to an incredibly high level that night and actually looked better than Toney did over any consecutive four-plus rounds in their first two fights considering he fought a much fresher and more prime incarnation. I think that fight is why @Lester1583 hates McCallum. It isn't as if he just imposed his size and walked through him, he won with science. Curry was hot shit at his best, white hot. Maybe a little too offensive skills heavy but he could parry shots really well.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I don't think it would be all too dissimilar to the Curry fight though, aside from the fact that Leonard wouldn't get caught like that and if he did, he doesn't hit the canvas. Maybe. Dude was an absolute DOG in his prime if you were at the level to draw it out of him. McCallum is going to have serious problems adjusting to his speed IMO and it isn't one-shot a time Floyd speed, it's bad intentions combination speed. Real combos, not flurries. Based on Kalule, I see very little difference between a 147 & 154 Leonard, he's fucking lethal and as complete a fighter as there's ever been.


If you think its not too dissimilar to the Curry fight, that means you think like Curry, Leonard would would beat McCallum to the punch, basically completely outbox him for at least 5 rounds before McCallum "gets warmed up". Unlike Curry, Leonard would not get KTFO'd. Leonard is better than Curry. At almost everything. Especially the version of Curry that Mccallum fought - that version wasn't exactly prime, especially if compared to the fucking master that beat Starling twice, & destroyed Green and McCrory. For a short period of time - Curry was probably among the best welters I've ever seen on film. Such a fucking sharpshooter.

You may think I'm trolling but I actually think Leonard would get to McCallum with a nasty sort of counter and stop him at 154. Might be blasphemous considering who McCallum has been in the ring with but I think leonard would do it. He clearly brought his power, speed and timing up to 154. There's no doubt about it. Controversial opinion im sure.

The funny thing about the Kalule-Leonard fight is that Leonard was basically a welterweight vs Kalule - he weighed in with his clothes on with his wallet & change in his pocket, he really wasn't a full 154 pounder. but Unlike Floyd, Leonard packed serious heat and punched to DAMAGE his opponent & not score points.



Hands of Iron said:


> Curry was hot shit at his best, white hot. Maybe a little too offensive skills heavy but he could parry shots really well.


So hot that you ducked the Curry v Mayweather thread, because of the danger of picking Curry against your boy.









There's a reason Floyd didn't fight any prime black fighters :shitstir


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

@tommygun711, an indomitable Hagler's young hungry disciple, is turning up the heat again on HoI's copypasting geriatric cherry-picking ass.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> If you think its not too dissimilar to the Curry fight, that means you think like Curry, Leonard would would beat McCallum to the punch, basically completely outbox him for at least 5 rounds before McCallum "gets warmed up". Unlike Curry, Leonard would not get KTFO'd.


Yes, that's exactly what I was saying.



> Leonard is better than Curry. At almost everything. Especially the version of Curry that Mccallum fought - that version wasn't exactly prime, especially if compared to the fucking master that beat Starling twice, & destroyed Green and McCrory. For a short period of time - Curry was probably among the best welters I've ever seen on film. Such a fucking sharpshooter.


That's really one of the best compliments probably ever bestowed on Leonard. You don't have to tell me though, I've been sucking on Sugar Cane for years. What's gotten into you with him lately though?



> You may think I'm trolling but I actually think Leonard would get to McCallum with a nasty sort of counter and stop him at 154. Might be blasphemous considering who McCallum has been in the ring with but I think leonard would do it. He clearly brought his power, speed and timing up to 154. There's no doubt about it. Controversial opinion im sure.
> 
> The funny thing about the Kalule-Leonard fight is that Leonard was basically a welterweight vs Kalule - he weighed in with his clothes on with his wallet & change in his pocket, he really wasn't a full 154 pounder. but Unlike Floyd, Leonard packed serious heat and punched to DAMAGE his opponent & not score points.


It's pretty outlandish.



> So hot that you ducked the Curry v Mayweather thread, because of the danger of picking Curry against your boy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Little Hands a ducker. 



Lester1583 said:


> @tommygun711, an indomitable Hagler's young hungry disciple, is turning up the heat again on HoI's copypasting geriatric cherry-picking ass.


Copy and Pasting my own shit. :lol: I'm a writer not a biter learned to quote myself and recycle lines from the best.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's really one of the best compliments probably ever bestowed on Leonard. You don't have to tell me though, I've been sucking on Sugar Cane for years. What's gotten into you with him lately though?


:lol: I always liked SRL, mate. Always thought he was a great fighter and frankly he was one of the fighters next to hagler & Ali that got me into boxing.

You would be surprised to hear that I got into a pretty violent argument with a casual today IRL about Leonard vs Mayweather Jr, nearly knuckled up to defend fucking SRL :rofl


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## DudeGuyMan (Jul 24, 2012)

GGG loses a credible fight, Canelo dies. Not even a question.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> :lol: I always liked SRL, mate. Always thought he was a great fighter and frankly he was one of the fighters next to hagler & Ali that got me into boxing.
> 
> You would be surprised to hear that I got into a pretty violent argument with a casual today IRL about Leonard vs Mayweather Jr, nearly knuckled up to defend fucking SRL :rofl


FFS Tommy. :lol:

This is also when you know you've spent too much time around CHB. Two American white boys regularly using the term "mate", even when addressing each other. It *sounds* even more ridiculous to me when I say it - and I don't to anyone - without some variation of an English, Scottish, Irish or Aussie accent. I know it makes @Bogotazo sick to his stomach.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Also can't believe you guys are still on and haven't forgotten about that Donald Curry vs. Floyd Mayweather thread. It was this damn important?!

http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...ll-kill-myself-if-hoi-doesnt-post-soon.40270/

Bogo locked it. :lol: It's strictly a business decision, guys.


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## DBerry (Jun 11, 2013)

Hey @Bogotazo, what's good mate? We have hardly communicated lately and have been a bit concerned about my ol' mate Bogo's been. Feel free to drop me a line matey.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

DBerry said:


> Hey @Bogotazo, what's good mate? We have hardly communicated lately and have been a bit concerned about my ol' mate Bogo's been. Feel free to drop me a line matey.


Berry (sun) just glad you're around again to be honest. Otherwise life is peachy. Hope you're well.



Hands of Iron said:


> Also can't believe you guys are still on and haven't forgotten about that Donald Curry vs. Floyd Mayweather thread. It was this damn important?!
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...ll-kill-myself-if-hoi-doesnt-post-soon.40270/
> 
> Bogo locked it. :lol: It's strictly a business decision, guys.


Lmao, I was just honoring the thread starter's wishes tbg. He knew it wasn't sustainable. It was an emergency flare, a smoke signal, for you to return. That Curry thread was interesting and forced me to start filling up one of my "holes".


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## Mrboogie23 (Jun 4, 2013)

GGG gives a good accounting but loses. Canelo gets worked and stopped.


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## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

Both made to order for Toney. Get on your bike.


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## Lampley (Jun 4, 2013)

Toney versus Canelo would not be competitive or entertaining. I think Toney/GGG is a better fight than some on here do, because Golovkin can box some as needed. That said, I don't think he can beat a Toney-level fighter that way. Still, that one might be fun.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Mike was cement. Toney honey


McCallum was great, master, ultra-technical and all that.

But.

This blind underdog worshipping is hardly any better than the Monzon's icy cold stare arguments.

McCallum was, as was rightfully mentioned, on the receiving end of the most one-sided schoolings ever.
Versus some italian no-name.

The idea that he destroys Hearns unequivocally has become imprinted on the minds of the weaker ones.

McCallum was a methodical boxer-puncher on the front foot, at best - a more balanced version of Marquez rather than Hagler's jealousy-fuelled merciless onslaught - not the guy who could press the action fast enough to make Tommy tire quickly.

He can break down Hearns but it would be via slowly building up pressure/landing the counter shots/exchanges while Tommy is on the attack, throwing those impossibly long jabs-right hands - not while the most underrated fighter evah is simply walking down the poor glass boy.

And prime Tommy was very hard to break down fighting that way.

Add in, that the faded Curry KO was a once-in-a-career success for Da Suck (which is never mentioned, unlike the constant downplaying of Nunn's historical win).
He tried to pull it off again in the next fight and failed miserably.

It's an even fight.
Not a foregone conclusion.

Leonard looked as good as ever at light middle - he had all the makings of a great light middle - lost none of his welterweight prowess from moving up.

It's just that he was like Oscar - too busy making money and beating big names.
He didn't have time for the minor junior divisions.

You don't beat Nunn (even a coked-up one) or fight on even terms with Sweet Reggie if you have bad feet.

With Toney it was more about mentality not physical/technical limitations - he looked better than the usual cement feeted suspects when he was forcing the attack.

The same goes for his stamina.
A fat old version of Toney was almost as active as Jirov on dog-side meth.

Inconstancy and inability are two different things.

Listen, learn, read on, _Ped_ro.

It's posts like yours why @Pedderrs doesn't post anymore.
Even the Dempsey debates are fresher than this regurgitated old fart's cliches.
The boy opens up his heart and lets you to touch his penalosa and what do you do?
Still chunter endlessly about Duran, Chavez, Leonard, Duran, Chavez, Leonard, Duran, Chavez, Leonard, Duran, Chavez, Leonard.



Hands of Iron said:


> Maybe a little too offensive skills heavy


Only past-prime.

That was one of the reasons of his downfall.



Hands of Iron said:


> Curry was hot shit at his best


Better that your Rich C ducker but you still can't force your self to mumble these words, as @tommygun711 said when he schooled you on the Hagler-Leonard scoring.


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## DB Cooper (May 17, 2013)

At 160 Toney beats Canelo easily. Toney vs GGG? Not so easy to predict. I think we need to find out a bit more about GGG before trying to guess the outcome.


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## noslackgiven (Apr 19, 2016)

DB Cooper said:


> At 160 Toney beats Canelo easily. Toney vs GGG? Not so easy to predict. *I think we need to find out a bit more about GGG before trying to guess the outcome.*


What we do know is he is:
He is 34 years old and yet to be tested by anybody better than a washed-up Kassim Ouma
He doesn't bring his punches straight back,he drops them to his waist THEN he brings them up
He stayed in the amateurs far too long.
He backs out with his hands down.

Toney beats GGG like a rented mule.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Lmao, I was just honoring the thread starter's wishes tbg. He knew it wasn't sustainable. It was an emergency flare, a smoke signal, for you to return. That Curry thread was interesting and forced me to start filling up one of my "holes".


:lol:












Lester1583 said:


> McCallum was great, master, ultra-technical and all that.
> 
> But.
> 
> ...












The second one to do it. Thankfully all these posts are on the same page, although I've not seen anyone on here claim McCallum "destroys" Hearns. I'm not even in the camp that necessarily buys he deliberately swerved him. However, I think you're slightly off in that the only way he takes him is to laboriously and gradually break him down, Tommy could be caught and put on queer street at any point. McCallum has the TTAAP to land a shot like that, probably several of them over the course. That's what goes with being "great, master, ultra-technical and all that". Hearns loses in both a tactical war or all-out slugfest if he obliges; he also possibly loses in the more likely manner you describe. He'd probably be slightly favoured actually, but has less routes to victory based on what we know.



Lester1583 said:


> It's posts like yours why


I'm hounded for years on a forum for an opinion on a particular fight. Obviously not merely a 'result' opinion because the situation already speaks volumes. And stop giving Tommy false hope that you scored the fight for Marvin.


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## DB Cooper (May 17, 2013)

noslackgiven said:


> What we do know is he is:
> He is 34 years old and yet to be tested by anybody......


It is because GGG is yet to be tested by anybody that we need to find out more about him before we can assess his limitations. The reality is there isn't a 160 pound fighter on the planet capable of exposing his limitations.


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## noslackgiven (Apr 19, 2016)

DB Cooper said:


> It is because GGG is yet to be tested by anybody that we need to find out more about him before we can assess his limitations. The reality is there isn't a 160 pound fighter on the planet capable of exposing his limitations.


His limitations have already been exposed..lol

He drops his punches to his waist...and backs out with his hands down...even against limited opposition.

He can get away with it in his dead division.

That is the reality.
Dude gets tagged by guys that can't even touch a drunk Kelley Pavlik

Imagine the mistakes he'd make against a threat like Lights Out Toney.

We know he isn't very ambitious...he stayed in the amateurs until he was evicted and seems tolove doing nothing at 160.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> However, I think you're slightly off based on what we know


Based on what we know about both fighters and cement feet, Tommy can win this one.

That's what I was trying to get through your thick fanboyish furosemided skull.

McCallum could catch him.
No denying that.

Hearns could outbox him.
Still denying that.

And Tommy wasn't that far off with the Leonard statement.

Just cuz Da Suck got saved by the referee against Jackson, doesn't mean he can take punches without problems from someone almost equally as devastating and twice as fast Julian in Hearns.

Just as just cuz Leonard and Barkley, who both hit harder than McCallum, managed to hurt Hearns, doesn't mean Da Suck could curry punch him too.

Making me write this obvious stuff and repeat mygreatself, Burt.

Instead of masturbating furiously over LMR-Tranny Boy.



Hands of Iron said:


> And stop giving Tommy false hope that you scored the fight for Marvin.


I scored it the same as any heterosexual did.

120-100.

For The Marvellous One.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Fuck Moochie.


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## DB Cooper (May 17, 2013)

noslackgiven said:


> His limitations have already been exposed..lol
> 
> He drops his punches to his waist...and backs out with his hands down...even against limited opposition.
> 
> ...


Every fighter has strengths and weaknesses - the legends included. But if there isn't anybody around capable of exposing them it is all academic really.


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## noslackgiven (Apr 19, 2016)

DB Cooper said:


> Every fighter has strengths and weaknesses - the legends included. But if there isn't anybody around capable of exposing them it is all academic really.


His weaknesses have already be revealed....he has yet to be exposed as a fighter.....yet...it's coming,you best believe that.

Nobody gets away with dropping their punches and pulling back with their hands down for long.

Too bad he stayed in the amateurs until he was damn near 30.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Based on what we know about both fighters and cement feet, Tommy can win this one.
> 
> That's what I was trying to get through your thick fanboyish furosemided skull.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry Lester, but even in waxing Liquid Swords lyrical over McCallum for the first time since 2013, nothing I've said has been over the top or inaccurate. It's all truth. And just as I acknowledged in the Avatar thread in regards to Boolsheeto, being Technician Supreme does not mean H2H unbeatable, far from it. I never came out... and said McCallum destroys Hearns. Or anything of the sort. I know the Curry KO was devastating for you, he was greatest for a brief time. It isn't something I take enjoyment out of myself - unlike some other Snatcher Syndicate members - it wasn't fair for him to get laid out like that with SRL at ringside to soak it up. Tommy is way off suggesting anyone remotely comes close to stopping McCallum at 154. I'm way right suggesting Toney, Kalambay, Jackson and faded Donald are all more formidable on the night(s) than any one fighter that Mayweather beat or fought.



> I scored it the same as any heterosexual did.
> 
> 120-100.
> 
> For The Marvellous One.


:lol: :rolleyes


----------



## DB Cooper (May 17, 2013)

noslackgiven said:


> His weaknesses have already be revealed....he has yet to be exposed as a fighter.....yet...it's coming,you best believe that.
> 
> Nobody gets away with dropping their punches and pulling back with their hands down for long.
> 
> Too bad he stayed in the amateurs until he was damn near 30.


35-0 and nobody has looked like putting a dint in him. We'll see.what the futire brings. But at present there is not a fighter at 160 who can trouble him.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> the Curry lucky punch KO was a human tragedy


It was.

As it meant that Starling was going to continue to exist.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Prime Curry puts it in Floyd's ass.


Prime Curry is a Top 10 ATG. For peak technical skills. He was the Undisputed Welterweight Champion of the World. A thorougbred from the Lone Star state. He engaged Starling on the inside. After the Honeyghan debacle, Curry prepared, trained and fought McCallum as if his career and future as an elite fighter was on the line. Dude was bringing the house down with that display, and then...


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


>





PityTheFool said:


> See no Sympathy, Feel no Sympathy.


I do, it was sad seeing him laid out like that. Not nearly enough to make me burst into tears ala Lester; I'm a Snatcher guy, but fuck...


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


>


Ragamuffin is the guy we should be talking right now.

His strengths and weaknesses.
His style.
His undeniable star quality.
His spiritual humiliation of Leonard.
His impeccable haircut.
And of course him performing unspeakable acts with Floyd.

Alas, you DKSAR too.

So we're stuck with the self-congratulatory essays on Da Suck's cement feet.

- Get a life, mate.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Curry is a top 10 technician.


Nah, way too fast and black.

Pale white featherfisters is where it's at - Davila, Winstone, Rudkin, etc.

You should know better, Larry.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Ragamuffin is the guy we should be talking right now.
> 
> His strengths and weaknesses.
> His style.
> ...












Especially with this A-Belt I'm mirin' the fuck out of, ridiculous. Yet wasting away time speaking to holier than thou cunts that want to discuss 1970s Flyweight contenders. You go on with your bad self. Mike McCallum isn't the enemy. Hopefully you'll see that one day.


----------



## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You'd think so, but I'm actually confident of McCallum beating him just as if not more clearly than Toney despite peaking at 154 and carrying less power up to 160 because he's no less tremendous against fighters that stand in with him, more complete overall, possesses a better jab and higher work rate. Mike was a boxer-puncher (albeit with slow feet) adept at every range, Toney was naturally a more stationary, defensive counter-punching, inside fighter :lol: - I don't think anyone crashes more precise, crispy clean eye-catching counters on him than James would -- and he'd throttle him on some seriously ILL shit -- but he tended to fight too patient at times and it made rounds closer than they ought to have been. I'd imagine Golovkin fighting in the most measured and defensively responsible manner he could here which probably eliminates the idea of an accumulative beatdown sort of stoppage people envision unless James is really up to taking the initiative and it isn't as if he wasn't capable, give him a nasty cut or something.
> 
> Shit. :lol:
> 
> ...


I really need to watch some of these 90's middleweights, I've watched a fair amount of Toney and Jones Jr, but my knowledge of the others is unfortunately pretty limited. Going to have to take some time to watch them!


----------



## Kid Cubano (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Instead of this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


According to Canelo's fans, the shot that landed in Floyds shoulder is more effective than the one that landed in Canelo's face.
And they have Ms Ross to prove it.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DOM5153 said:


> I really need to watch some of these 90's middleweights, I've watched a fair amount of Toney and Jones Jr, but my knowledge of the others is unfortunately pretty limited. Going to have to take some time to watch them!


Wow, really? You're a pretty phenomenal poster too so I imagine your take aways on that era would be worth reading once you familiarize with yourself with it and draw your own conclusions. A truly jam packed time period. It wasn't a case of a dominant champ leaving the game and a division suddenly becoming competitive as a result. Anyone who wants to argue those points can be my guest. Just got into it recently here if you're interested. A few would call some posts "essays", it's extreme brevity tbh. :lol:

http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...ad-seems-to-be-lost.84560/page-7#post-2514271

It was McCallum heavy due to that being primary angle of where rossco said he was going to take it, but it's almost impossible to mention him and not bring up the likes of Toney, Kalambay and Nunn. Honestly think you'll be fairly blown away by how little the latter two are actually mentioned on the whole if you haven't been conversing with particular posters for years. Their talent and ability level at their best was wildly disproportionate to how their overall careers panned out. The six fights that took place between the top dogs more than hold than own to the more popular Fab Four IMO, in virtually every way.

Not a single one of them dissapointed sans having a fighter preference. If you want to see Nunn at his best, hard to do better than when he took the title off Frank Tate. He actually performed quite well against Toney as well for the majority, but James made the investment in body shots early on that payed dividends and it really wasn't as one-sided as people have it IMO. Little came easy for McCallum at Middleweight as he wasn't 32 until he moved up (Hagler retired at that age), had already peaked at 154 and consistently fought guys ranging from true world-class to elite. The fight against Michael Watson is a great showcase for his skills at MW in a more one-sided type of fashion rather than just merely seeing him take on a stylistic nightmare and fucking prime Toney at 35/36, and twice a piece at that.

McCallum/Kalambay I
(ATG one-sided masterclass)

Nunn/Kalambay
(Shocking one-punch KO)

McCallum/Kalambay II
(ATG tech fest, arguable GOAT, great adjustments to avenge defeat)

Nunn/Toney
(Legendary come from behind KO)

McCallum/Toney I
(ATG tactical warfare; arguable GOAT technical fight)

McCallum/Toney II
(Tactical with a little less warfare, still high quality)


----------



## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Wow, really? You're a pretty phenomenal poster too so I imagine your take aways on that era would be worth reading once you familiarize with yourself with it and draw your own conclusions. A truly jam packed time period. It wasn't a case of a dominant champ leaving the game and a division suddenly becoming competitive as a result. Anyone who wants to argue those points can be my guest. Just got into it recently here if you're interested. A few would call some posts "essays", it's extreme brevity tbh. :lol:
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...ad-seems-to-be-lost.84560/page-7#post-2514271
> 
> ...


Cheers mate, thanks for the link and the compliment, nice to have that from someone I view highly on here, I think I have a way to go though. I'll check this out later!


----------



## KOTF (Jun 3, 2013)

The Curry that had those tune-ups at 154 before Honeyghan would have won a lopsided UD over McCallum


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DOM5153 said:


> Cheers mate, thanks for the link and the compliment, nice to have that from someone I view highly on here, I think I have a way to go though. I'll check this out later!


Hard to think of a more rewarding period to go back and visit, but I'm quite biased admittedly. I (objectively) think any four of them hang with any Middleweight(s) in history, there's probably some match-ups that wouldn't suit them as well obviously. Just mean on the whole at their best, they're as good as any. Lester is sick and livid with it because he's been talking and reading about it on forums since at least 2008, but there are far more boxing fans and people such as yourself that haven't even gotten the chance to delve. That's why I don't make one or two sentence posts on recurring topics that are brought up, you don't know who's reading them or what they know. I know I don't like exceptionally brief, know-it-all sarcastic posts on topics I'm in that sort of position with because you don't learn anything that way. I'm under the assumption that most people are literate.

McCallum probably had the greatest "Best I've Faced" RING feature ever done. The range, level of skill and formidability in opposition was just ridiculous when you look over it and that's despite the likes of Hearns, Duran and Hagler being, we'll say: Not particularly keen on it. It also doesn't hurt that most of the fighters they question for those are disgracefully dishonest and outright refuse to give credit to the fighters that either beat them or caused them significant problems in the ring. Cue Duran claiming DeJesus hit harder than Thomas fucking Hearns, even though Esteban did beat him and drop him on his ass twice. KD's more do to impeccable timing and accuracy with his left hook though than raw power and Duran being shook up because he wasn't. Or Azumah Nelson saying Mario Martinez was the best fighter he got in the ring with. :rofl

Cement Feet don't play that shit, he even gives Roy nods despite being 40 years old and wildly past anywhere near his best when he fought him. Could've competely disregarded him and it would've been fair @dyna. Only things I disagree with really is that Toney was a better fighter in the late 90s than he was from 91-94. Possibly more complete I guess, but he didn't do much with it. His career was incredibly underwhelming post-Jones and after he split with manager Jackie Kallen save for a few notable moments. Mike is probably the only person in the world who sees the Watson fight as being difficult, but he was the one in the ring with him so... Damn sure made it look pretty easy, though Watson was game and looked stronger than an ox, I find that wholly believable. Kalambay is a better boxer than Graham, beat him twice and was as good as any fighter in the world during his run up to the Nunn fight in Vegas but fair do's. I can see that.

*Best overall: James Toney* - He wasn't a complete fighter the first time we fought, and I still believe I won that fight. But he learned in that fight and he got better. He grew with each fight. By our third fight, he was a different fighter, a complete fighter. He was someone who could do it all, fight inside or outside, work offense and defense at the same time, just like me when I was younger. I like to think that I helped James mature as a fighter.

*Best boxer: Herol Graham* - He was a pure boxer, a southpaw and very elusive. It wasn't easy to hit him. He was very smart, very skilled.

*Best puncher: Julian Jackson* - He hit me so hard! Julian wasn't just powerful, he was also real quick. I got caught by a right hand in the first round of our fight and I remember thinking "What's wrong with my legs?" I tried my best to hide it from him. I knew I had to take him out as soon as I could.

*Best defense: Sumbu Kalambay* - I fought many good defensive fighters. Toney had a good defense. Graham was slippery. Jones was fast and slick, but Kalambay is No. 1. I can't forget about him. He's the first fighter to beat me and it's because of his good movement. He was always sliding side to side, very shifty. He was a dangerous boy.

*Fastest hands: Julian Jackson* - He was quick, man. That's why he got so many knockouts. Everyone focused on his power and then he'd get you with a punch you didn't see. They landed on you - boom! - from out of nowhere. Kalambay and Toney were also fast. So was Jones, obviously, but I fought him when I was older and had slowed down a bit.

*Fastest feet: Roy Jones* - He had very quick feet. He was elusive just because of his footwork.

*Best chin: Steve Collins* - I almost said Toney, but Collins had the best chin. I hit him right on his chin all night and he wouldn't budge. I couldn't hit Toney that much and when I did, he backed off. Collins walked through punches.

*Best jab: Donald Curry* - I fought many fighters with good jabs. Kalambay could win fights with just his jab. McCrory had a good, hard jab. But Curry's was the best. I see why they called him "the Cobra" because he didn't miss with it. He was a bad man with that jab.

*Strongest: Michael Watson* - Oh my God, he was so strong. That's why that fight was so hard. It was a gruesome fight, 11 rounds of back and forth hell.

*Smartest: Roy Jones Jr.* - I fought quite a few smart boys in my time. Graham was a cunning S.O.B. I remember him sticking his tongue out at me whenever I'd miss a punch. Kalambay was smart and so was Toney, although he didn't have the experience to back it up when we first fought. But I think Roy may have been the smartest. He was very clever, which didn't surprise me. I knew he was sharp. It was like he was always one step ahead of me.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> SRL stops McCallum at 154.





Zopilote said:


> :deal
> 
> Yes, Yes.







^^^ :rofl Fuck Me!!! Yet another awesome instrumental that matches perfectly as well, though not from that puss Hanza, Tommy.  I'm rollin with you.






:think

And like, I get it that Es Are El was a much better boxer than The Hawk but we really finna act like Julian's own delivery system was wack? It wasn't. He could pull the trigger and blow your brains out quick fast.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> [
> And like, I get it that Es Are El was a much better boxer than The Hawk but we really finna act like Julian's own delivery system was wack? It wasn't. He could pull the trigger and blow your brains out quick fast.


No Jackson's delivery system was top notch, his technique was the reason he could generate so much fucking power.. I just always imagined SRL boxing circles around mccallum enroute stopping him like in that Kalule fight. im not gonna act like its not far fetched of course it is. I just think Leonard would do it. of course kalule didnt have a solid beard but it shows that leonard had legitimate p4p power, he was even able to KO fucking Lalonde who had how much weight on him? as a kid when i first saw that fight I always felt worried for leonard like leonard was superman and lalonde was this guy


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> No Jackson's delivery system was top notch, his technique was the reason he could generate so much fucking power.. I just always imagined SRL boxing circles around mccallum enroute stopping him like in that Kalule fight. im not gonna act like its not far fetched of course it is. I just think Leonard would do it. of course kalule didnt have a solid beard but it shows that leonard had legitimate p4p power, he was even able to KO fucking Lalonde who had how much weight on him? as a kid when i first saw that fight I always felt worried for leonard like leonard was superman and lalonde was this guy





PityTheFool said:


> Surprised at how easily they picked SRL over McCallum.





Lester1583 said:


> Fucking Fanboy Motherfucker Fuck Off Fucking Fuckwit.


*"Sugar Ray Leonard told me personally that there was no money in facing McCallum and it was a fight he could lose. I asked him that during a Q&A and he admitted it to an entire audience. I stepped up to the elite level and traded with one of the best fighters around, so I knew I would get better and I knew I would become a world champion after that. McCallum didn't get the credit he deserved but just look at his record and you see the guys he beat. McCallum had the best jab. He controlled fights with the left jab and punished you if you made mistakes. McCallum was so slick. He had the ability to ride punches and come back with his own. He would invite a shot, get past it and land quality counters. Defensively he was so cute and he was well schooled in every aspect of the game. It was great to share the ring with him and that experience did so much for my own career. I learned more in one fight with Mike McCallum than I did in my five previous fights combined, do you understand? He was skillful, a master at combination punching and he had everything at his disposal. He was the smartest guy I ever fought."*










:rofl:yep


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

@Hands of Iron is 





And I mean it in the most positive way possible.

Spread the Patrizio gospel, my straight edge brother.

For there are too many of those who still dwell in darkness.

Lead them, teach them, disembowel them with love.

Phallelujah.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


>


KO Magazine's middleweight rankings.

1992:

1. Mike McCallum
2. Julian Jackson
3. James Toney
4. Reggie Johnson
5. Sumbu Kalambay
6. Steve Collins
7. Roy Jones
8. Lamar Parks
9. Gerald McClellan
10. Bernard Hopkins


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> @Hands of Iron is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, thank you. :lol: I'd of taken it positively even without the verification. Sans any bestiality connotations.

Best Fight Poster, Worst Fight.










The tuxedos though. 








"There's not much to tell. He KOed me with a left hook to the jaw during the first round. You know, I prepared very hard for that fight. I spent a month in Las Vegas and trained properly. It's sad that one punch ruined it all, but that's boxing."

Uh Oh. Real G Alert like McCallum on a "Best I've Faced" feature. Sumbu showing clowns how to take your lumps like Men Do. Make Arrangements, Not Excuses.



Bogotazo said:


> Mmm


"Oh My God!!" :rofl

Get Him! Commentating crew helped to make that what it was. Nunn was something like #2 P4P at the time according to many and Toney came in a 20-1 underdog FFS. Their shock is pretty understandable in that context. Still sounds so over the top knowing what we do about Toney in hindsight. Where is Bogotazo anyway and why isn't he involved in any of this.

As it happens, Michael Nunn is the only one I'm not actually head over heels for. It's just 'spect, even though he's truly a Midwestern boy, not Hollywood. The last time this topic was seriously broached three some years ago, people were left with the impression that I was a much bigger Toney fan and just propping up McCallum on his behalf. Boolsheeeet! This ain't no Buddy McGirt - whom Curry utterly wrecks - were talking about, and now it would unmistakably be McCallum (even though I said as much then) and with a lot of praise thrown towards Patrizio in between. The fact of the matter is, Snatcher and Lights Out are both Super Six faves of all-time, Sumbu would probably be within the Top 20 only because it feels all too (unfortunately) brief and there's so little in terms of articles, interviews and videos. He was a bit more than just a great jab + footwork, more than one of the greatest performances and wins of all-time against an undefeated, bonafide ATG. He's a fucking problem for the vast majority.


----------



## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Canelo vs toney.... Canelo ko3.. You what he did to khan... Khans speed>toney! 

In reality fight at 155 might be competitive, toney struggled with his weight


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> "There's not much to tell. He KOed me with a left hook to the jaw during the first round. You know, I prepared very hard for that fight. I spent a month in Las Vegas and trained properly. It's sad that one punch ruined it all, but that's boxing."


Imagine if this fight had happened today and Kalambay was some obscure fighter and you'd be telling all your friends and forum goers how he's going to school the shit out of him and maybe stop Nunn.
And then that happens, boom.
Your whole life ruined, your last moments being remembered as a laughing stock for supporting some African hypejob.

It's a horrible feeling


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Imagine if this fight had happened today and Kalambay was some obscure fighter and you'd be telling all your friends and forum goers how he's going to school the shit out of him and maybe stop Nunn.
> And then that happens, boom.
> Your whole life ruined, your last moments being remembered as a laughing stock for supporting some African hypejob.
> 
> It's a horrible feeling


It totally ruins Sumbu's argument in a lot of H2H rightly or wrongly (wrongly) even though he was never stopped at any other point in his career, nevermind the first round. I think with the technological advancement and breadth of outlets there are for watching boxing today, it'd be difficult for him to be unknown on a forum like this given his skill set. I'd probably be riding him like I have Rigo. There were empty seats in the Hilton for the Nunn fight but it was still pretty highly billed amongst the purist crowd, one people would all be foaming at the mouth about today and celebrating the best fighting the best. @Bogotazo would feel compelled to have several pages of fight breakdown essays for it.

That was a foregone conclusion with these cats: Of course, they will fucking fight! You serious? :rofl They're bout that life. No marinating, no politics, no bullshit. Put it up or get the fuck. As it was, Kalambay really wasn't "some Italian no-name" as Lester sarcastically put it and is obviously fully aware. You don't become a strapholder and roll past guys like Herol Graham, Iran Barkley, Mike McCallum, Robbie Sims and Doug DeWitt without plenty of people noticing. Speaking of strapholder, the WBA's behavior during this Middleweight era was beyond abhorrent, even for them.

Kalambay defeats Herol Graham to put himself in position for a world title, wins the vacant WBA 160 championship against Iran Barkley, successfully defends it against Mike McCallum, Robbie Sims and Doug DeWitt. He is *Stripped* for taking what should've been a *Unification* with *Michael Nunn* instead of fighting mandatory Herol Graham...

McCallum wins the vacant WBA 160 championship against Herol Graham, successfully defends it against Steve Collins, Michael Watson and Sumbu Kalambay. He is *Stripped* for taking what should've been a *Unification* with *James Toney* instead of fighting mandatory Steve Collins...

Makes complete sense.

That's just how badass these dudes were. They'll get stripped of their god damn titles if they have to in order to fight the best even when all of their defenses of those titles were quality and there was no justification whatsoever in taking the action to strip them. Not only the MSE's (Most Skilled Ever), but the Realest G's. It's utterly irrefutable.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> - G approved.


Toney's 1991 is the modern equivalent of 1919 Grebian Balls.

Hasn't been topped since then.

That was one of the main reasons some rated Burger King as the # 1.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Toney's 1991 is the modern equivalent of 1919 Grebian Balls.
> 
> Hasn't been topped since then.
> 
> That was one of the main reasons some rated Burger King as the # 1.







"If one were to look down a list of the Top 10 middleweights in the world..."

They'd cream their fucking pants @rossco style.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> so little in terms of articles, interviews and videos.


There was a day, there was a time, when he used to box...



Lester1583 said:


> Patrizio's odyssey.
> 
> The Congo Years.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> There was a day, there was a time, when he used to box...


So sad to see where he ended up on McGrain's Top 50 Middleweight list. All of them, really. Behind all the newspaper guys and others they're clearly more skilled than. Not unjustified either though in how those things are traditionally sorted, because as much as they're responsible for proving themselves and their abilities against each other (McCallum actually allows everyone else to eat in one way or another due to his enormous sack), they crush each other's hopes and aspirations possibly even more.

I mean Hagler beat zero Top 50 Middleweights on that list and winds up as the 3rd Greatest of All-Time. At the same time, I couldn't sit here with a straight face and say "No, he doesn't deserve that." -- Hearns is still a great signature win even if he wasn't the same monster he was at 147/154. It's far worse in B-Slop's case (A Top 10 Middleweight Great). He staged trilogies with Robert Allen and shit. Fantastic era.

I'd put McCallum above Toney at 160 though personally, because although JT KO'ed Nunn, he straight up split fights H2H with him in his mid-30s (the hell with the cards FFS), avenged a serious stylistic foil in Kalambay with adjustments - not because Sumbu had lost a whole lot IMO - and a trio of Graham, Watson and Collins trumps Reggie and the other unranked guys he fought for me. FWIW, Toney and Kalambay are far better fighters to me than your LaMotta's, Fullmer's, Turpin's and the sort. I mean, we've got the threads on here asking for the most skilled fights of all-time on film and the biggest mentions are fights involving who? Leonard, Benitez, Duran, Hearns, McCallum, Kalambay and Toney. That's who.

Sort this out @PityTheFool. Bit fucky, and why I don't really bother wracking my brain over it anymore.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


>





Lester1583 said:


> It's not a popular opinion today but I've never considered the second fight a robbery or that controversial.
> 
> It's understandable why plenty of people scored it for McCallum - he was busier, more consistent, threw body punches/accurate sneaky low blows all night long, moved (at least in the first half), jabbed.
> But almost non of his punches were big.
> ...





Bill Jincock said:


> McCallum did look more or less past it in the rematch.He had basically become Kevin Finnegan IE, still a good technical fighter, but now distinctly unathletic.
> 
> Toney did his lethargic schtick for one of the first times and gave us a sign of things to come.Did little after the first three rounds, but wasn't getting hit much either.By then he was getting serious hype as the possible next great American middle, as Nunn had done.No one was caring much about an inconclusive fight with an old Jamaican.The whole thing had the feel of "get this old cunt out of the way so we can move you on to bigger things, James...btw it's fixed anyway but make it look good if you can"





Hands of Iron said:


> So sad to see where he ended up on McGrain's Top 50 Middleweight list. All of them, really. Behind all the newspaper guys and others they're clearly more skilled than. Not unjustified either though in how those *things are traditionally sorted*


If only @Powerpuncher didn't suffer that shocking KO defeat.

Will he make a comeback and reinvent himself a la Lewis or will he fade away like Tito?

His legacy is on the line.

@Vysotsky is still with us though and he doesn't give a fuck about traditional Top 10's.

Especially middleweight Top 10's.









You don't want to ask him about Pac-Floyd though.

He will desecrate your childhood.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> If only @Powerpuncher didn't suffer that shocking KO defeat.
> 
> Will he make a comeback and reinvent himself a la Lewis or will he fade away like Tito?
> 
> His legacy is on the line.


That's why he was great, although his hate for **** Henry has seemed to brush off on you considerably. The Kevin Finnegan comment from Jincock ... :lol: ... He's obviously correct in regards to Mike being past it, but um. Yeah. I don't think either fight was a robbery per se, just simply had Toney taking the first and McCallum the second. That's how I view them, the scorecards don't even play a factor. Judge for yourself and formulate your own opinions or it's pointless really. I mean in general, not speaking to you directly.



> @Vysotsky is still with us though and he doesn't give a fuck about traditional Top 10's.
> 
> Especially middleweight Top 10's.
> 
> ...


No he won't, look in the P4P Since Robinson thread. I thought it was great.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> trio of Graham, Watson and Collins trumps Reggie and the other unranked guys he fought for me.







Edit your post.

I won't tell anybody.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> **** Henry Hate


Viewed him as the black Pacquiao.

Which is correct.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> rob Reggie. He likes it.


Still haven't watched Reggie's best performance versus Kidfire, haven't you, doughboy?

And judging by you copypasting Collins' James Joyce interpretation, you still don't know why he never mentions Patrizio?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Still haven't watched Reggie's best performance versus Kidfire, haven't you, doughboy?
> 
> And judging by you copypasting Collins' James Joyce interpretation, you still don't know why he never mentions Patrizio?


Service your rusted parts, sardonic sleaze.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> doughboy


This is the wrong way to go about it, mate. I'm not posting things on the general for MrTony to swoop in here to steal and use to catfish hundreds (of thousands) of people on dating websites.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


>


To cool things down a little:


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> MrTony with hands in Abe's pants


He can always find work as a motivational speaker.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> - Don't duck me, bitch.


Smashnambulism:


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> No.


Canelo's counter was better lmfao


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> Canelo's counter was better lmfao


Wow look who came out of hiding...


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hiding? I keep getting bullied and banned by the dicksucking admins here. They are mad I don't buy into their propaganda about litte g or other similar fighters. Ideally I could chat here without being harassed by the admins and banned without reason (other than they disagree with what I have to say), but fuck those dicksuckers. For the record it's not Bogo at all. It's the other asshats

Toney was a hell of a fighter especially at MW. I think Canelo's preference for fighting backwards - combined with the fact we've never seen him at MW makes it hard to pick a winner in that matchup. Little g on other hand somehow is given a *chance* to beat Toney - a legit ATG - despite having fought N O B O D Y his entire career. It's beyond insane.

See you guys in 6 months after I get banned again for...nothing...again. Fuck off @Bernard Black


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


>


And even the lesser celebrated fights were of the highest quality.

Like Kalambay - Graham 1.

Orthodox vs Unorthodox chessboxin'.

Easy to forget how versatile they both were.

Graham, when he boxed more conservatively, pressing the action with his hands down like the Sheffield Mantequilla.

Kalambay, who's slow retreat mode is almost unrivaled, and yet turning into an aggressor in a matter of seconds if necessary.

Graham's rarely mentioned physical strength.

Kalambay's gliding back-step and counter right uppercut.

Etc.

And both never ran, despite having the legs to do so.

Both were real fighters at heart.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Only things I disagree with really is that Toney was a better fighter in the late 90s than he was from 91-94.


The McCallum fights were Toney's education.

That's one of the reasons he respects McCallum so much.

You can see he was enjoying being in the ring with him.

By the time they met for the third time it was like a grown-up former student and his old sensei.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> copypasting Collins' James Joyce interpretation.





Hands of Iron said:


> Service your rusted parts, sardonic sleaze.


" :rofl :yep " usually implies something. It wasn't just copy and pasted, it was butchered to sound utterly ridiculous, like Collins himself tends to much of the time. More fittingly it was from a "Best I've Faced" feature, see the connection? The day I need Steve Collins to back me up on points for Mike McCallum... :lol: Judging from the way it's gone in here as well as the more cagey Brit Forum, obviously not. Not matter how far I take it, zero resistance. I don't even think McCallum is underrated. Other people do, and it's for their enjoyment. They're laughing too, just dealing with some other stuff and can't partake.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> " I don't even think McCallum is underrated.


McCllum isn't really underrated anymore.

Among hardcore fans at least.

Although PowerPuncher would still argue that he is, as McCallum still isn't universally recognized as Monzon's/Hagler's peer.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> McCllum isn't really underrated anymore.
> 
> Among hardcore fans at least.
> 
> Although PowerPuncher would still argue that he is, as McCallum still isn't universally recognized as Monzon's/Hagler's peer.


Oh, so it's cool for one of your idols to do it but Hands does it, lays it out profoundly clear, defends his position on it despite being only half-serious and that's a problem? :-(

http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...g-palmer-thread-seems-to-be-lost.84560/page-7

Even gave PP a shout on the following page, I really think he's done and that sucks. You do know what a huge part of his argument for rating Jones where does is, right?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> idols









Hands of Iron said:


> Ooh to my surprise Handsy never stops


You're like your rappers.

Talk too much.



Hands of Iron said:


> http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...g-palmer-thread-seems-to-be-lost.84560/page-7


Thread got ignored even by Rob.

Your arguments were that weak.



Hands of Iron said:


> I really think he's done and that sucks.














Hands of Iron said:


> You do know what a huge part of his argument for rating Jones where does is, right?


The victory over Johnny Nelson.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Ooh to my surprise Handsy never stops.


'Coz you always want to start. The hatred is obvious and felt through the mobile screen and into my beautiful green eyes.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> - Smile, pops.


Kalambay - Collins is up there with the best past pime wins a la Cotton-Torres.

Considering the circumstances.

Kalambay had slipped so far, looked so disjointed compared to his former self.
Collins hit his prime and was a very strong, boiled down natural super middle.

And yet Kalambay not only beat him convincingly, he even managed to back Collins up on numerous occasions and outfight him.

An excellent defensive performance to boot, even if sloppy-looking.

That's a Froch-level win.
If you dislike Collins (and plenty of british fans do).

Notice that Collins didn't even mention Kalambay in his interview.
Basically brushed the trip to Italy aside as an anomaly.
Like: "I don't even know what happened. I don't even wanna know what happened."


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Kalambay - Collins is up there with the best past pime wins a la Cotton-Torres.
> 
> Considering the circumstances.
> 
> ...


No.

It's too late in the game to want to start being straight up, should've done that four pages ago instead of inciting the usual hell with it hyperbole as nobody around here hardly knows what the fuck we've been on about at all. 120+ posters have viewed this thread, two or three had anything to say. :rofl I'm done with it.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I need to poo.


Balls of glass.

Like your idols.


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## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

But how would LomaGOAT do? @bballchump11


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