# How would Terry Norris fare against todays 154 division



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

Will he suckerpunch his way to domination!?!


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

He'd be a massive threat to all.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

fists of fury said:


> He'd be a massive threat to all.


hands and feet that fast? No doubt, no doubt


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Moderately hard hitters like Alvarez or Cotto have the power to hurt Norris, who didn't possess a great beard, but outside of that I would expect him to establish himself as the best at 154lbs today.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Moderately hard hitters like Alvarez or Cotto have the power to hurt Norris, who didn't possess a great beard, but outside of that I would expect him to establish himself as the best at 154lbs today.


I could see Cotto giving him a really good fight, Great Clash of Styles


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

FloydPatterson said:


> I could see Cotto giving him a really good fight, Great Clash of Styles


It'd be a very entertaining fight whilst it lasted. Norris might just have a bit too much offensively for Cotto.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Cotto is exactly the kind of fighter Norris would want to fight - a past-prime blown-up welter with a recognizable name who's nothing special at light middle.

Cotto'd get beat up and stopped.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I was telling my friend yesterday that Norris vs Sergio Martinez would be such a great fight


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Cotto is exactly the kind of fighter Norris would want to fight - a past-prime blown-up welter with a recognizable name who's nothing spesial at light middle.
> 
> Cotto'd get beat up and stopped.


Ironically I'm watching Norris Curry right now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I was telling my friend yesterday that Norris vs Sergio Martinez would be such a great fight


It would I think Sergio would force Norris to be the aggressor

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Ever' body likes Turrable Turry


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> It would I think Sergio would force Norris to be the aggressor
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah I think so also. There'd be plenty of knockdowns in this one :yep


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> Ever' body likes Turrable Turry


Personally I hate the guys attitude, but his fighting style is so attractive to watch


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> Personally I hate the guys attitude, but his fighting style is so attractive to watch


Good point. Did you see the recent Ring Mag (with Danny on the front, iirc) where they do a "Best I've Faced..." every month.

I guess he's suffering from dementia a bit, but he does come off kind of bad in the way he talks about everybody IMO.

IN the ring though, it was gonna be good. Either he, or his opponent, was getting KTFO .... :yep


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Norris smokes everyone. Seriously. If Floyd fought Norris at a catchweight I seriously think Norris would knock him out, he just offers so much offensively 

Canelo would beat up over 12 rounds, Lara gets outpointed

Cotto possibly gets stopped


----------



## Bobo (Jun 6, 2013)

Kirkland vs Norris would be spectacular. Angulo vs Norris is also an interesting fight


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Norris fucks everyone up.


----------



## techks (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Norris smokes everyone. Seriously. If Floyd fought Norris at a catchweight I seriously think Norris would knock him out, he just offers so much offensively
> 
> Canelo would beat up over 12 rounds, Lara gets outpointed
> 
> Cotto possibly gets stopped


Floyd wouldn't go to the same state as Norris while he was a top fighter and you know this. If Paul Williams had him shivering like a bitch....

Agree with everything but I think Angulo is his worse matchup and Alvarez is his best. Styles. Angulo would press him and can take what Norris could dish unless he gets stopped on cuts. Power wiuld be there the whole fight which concerns me. Alvarez is too flatfooted and Norris would be on his toes the whole fight. Alvarez would not see the punches coming and can see him getting stopped. Lara/Norris is tricky but pick a Norris late rds ko or UD.


----------



## Irländsk (Jun 3, 2013)

Gatekeeper


----------



## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

Norris-Lara would be a great tactical fight.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

Irländsk said:


> Gatekeeper


:lol: K9 Bundrage would've tapped that ass


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd'll lick him. 

The others are Norris' victims.


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Norris was more talented than any guy today in the 154.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Terrible Terry would beat everybody but might have a shock KO...although there are no elite quality punchers today at 154 so maybe not. Might get DQ'd tho. Speed, skill, power coupled with great athleticism he was a dangerous combo.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Floyd'll lick him.


No, Floyd has never licked a 154 pounder of Norris' caliber, as a matter of fact floyd has barely even fought at 154.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)




----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> No, Floyd has never licked a 154 pounder of Norris' caliber, as a matter of fact floyd has barely even fought at 154.


I don't care, Floyd will win, I truly believe that. You're a pussy and can never make a judgement on yourself. You're an empiricism nazi.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> You're a pussy and can never make a judgement on yourself. You're an empiricism nazi.


What the fuck are you talking about?


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Lara might outpoint him. So might Floyd. Everyone else would be quite an underdog.

Kirkland could spark him though.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?


Doesn't matter, sorry, can't be botherd either lol


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

How does prime Norris do against prime McCallum( sorry.I know,I know)
@Hands of Iron?

I give you two words;Julian Fucking Jackson!


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> How does prime Norris do against prime McCallum


Norris gets stopped sooner or later.

No shame in that though.

And yes, Norris is a horrible match-up for Floyd.

Even Floyd biggest fans would agree.

@Hands of Iron

@Powerpuncher


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Norris gets stopped sooner or later.
> 
> No shame in that though.


I'm a bore at times Lester.Always looking for a Body Snatching angle.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I'm a bore at times Lester.Always looking for a Body Snatching angle.


Then match him up with someone who isn't that easy to beat.

Joey "Da Beast" Archer, for example:ibutt


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Then match him with someone who isn't that easy to beat.
> 
> Joey "Da Beast" Archer, for example:ibutt


I think he beats Tommy and Winky easily at 154.
Archer at 160? That can could only put down the likes of Candy Cane Ray Robinson.


----------



## Aramini (Jun 5, 2013)

Man I don't get the terry Norris love. His intangibles are a mess and he has awful luck. 

Maybe the worst luck of a great fighter ever. He will find a way to lose. Remember that wasnt prime Leonard in there against him. 

I think Norris can find a way to lose to any great fighter on any given day.


----------



## Aramini (Jun 5, 2013)

He wasnt always getting k o'd either he lost a ud early in his career and has a whole lot of dq losses. He is a rich man's zab Judah.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

It's not that Norris was some kind of invincible beast.

But he certainly was a talented fighter. Admittedly with a few glaring flaws and embarrassing defeats.

It's just that todays light middleweight division is mediocre at best, filled with blown-up past-prime talents, run-of-the-mill sluggers and decent boxing-type fighters.

Not that Norris' own era was great, of course.

Nothing wrong with favoring Norris over someone like Alvarez, an old Cotto, or Mayweather (as good as he is) who's best days were at lower weights.


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

Aramini said:


> He wasnt always getting k o'd either he lost a ud early in his career and has a whole lot of dq losses. He is a rich man's zab Judah.


Norris got KO'd when he convinced himself that he was a banger. He never had the chin to stand and trade with guys. But when he stuck to being Terry the boxer, he was pretty hard to beat.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> Lara might outpoint him. So might Floyd. Everyone else would be quite an underdog.
> 
> Kirkland could spark him though.


Where is the evidence in Floyd or Lara outpointing him?

Kirkland??? I mean really? Kirkland would get his shit outboxed and then get stopped with his suspect chin/stamina. Just because Norris was a little chinny doesn't mean he would automatically lose to someone like Kirkland who can punch.. :-(
@The Undefeated Gaul Do you think Floyd would just school him easily or what?


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> Will he suckerpunch his way to domination!?!


He'd hold his own quite well thank you. He could compete in today's J.M. division, get KO'd by a journeyman one month and KO the best the next month. 
Very hot and cold guy, Mayweather would be well advised not to fight Norris.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Where is the evidence in Floyd or Lara outpointing him?
> 
> Kirkland??? I mean really? Kirkland would get his shit outboxed and then get stopped with his suspect chin/stamina. Just because Norris was a little chinny doesn't mean he would automatically lose to someone like Kirkland who can punch.. :-(
> 
> @The Undefeated Gaul Do you think Floyd would just school him easily or what?


:lol: where's the evidence he MIGHT get outpointed by the two most skilled lmw's today?
:lol: where's the evidence he COULD get sparked by one of the biggest punching lmw's today?

Did you even read the post you quoted?

I don't think you did. I named the two I think to be most likely to pull the upset, who do you see as more likely than those two to upset the terrible one?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Norris would give everyone a boxing lesson.
He beat Sugar Ray Leonard for fuck's sake.
Floyd beat a shot Oscar and Manny beat Miguel Freakin Cotto.

Different levels of fighters.

I'll give Floyd 1 round max against Norris.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> :lol: where's the evidence he MIGHT get outpointed by the two most skilled lmw's today?
> :lol: where's the evidence he COULD get sparked by one of the biggest punching lmw's today?


:lol: Fair play, m8. I misread the most; I thought you were definitely picking those guys over Norris which is ridiculous to me.

Floyd has never fought a legitimate 154 pound threat like Norris. Not only would Norris be faster than Canelo, Cotto, and washed up DLH, he would hit harder, throw better combos, and would be much smarter than all 3 of those fighters. And while I like Lara alot I don't think he is on Norris' level.

As for Kirkland, yeah, no way I would favor him to spark out Norris, or give him much of a chance at all. While Kirkland is a banger he has shitty stamina and has a suspect chin himself, I think Norris could blitz him in 3 rounds if he really wanted to.



> I named the two I think to be most likely to pull the upset, who do you see as more likely than those two to upset the terrible one?


Floyd, I give Floyd a much better shot than Lara or Kirkland, but he still likely gets knocked out i think.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Norris would give everyone a boxing lesson.
> He beat Sugar Ray Leonard for fuck's sake.
> Floyd beat a shot Oscar and Manny beat Miguel Freakin Cotto.
> 
> ...


Felix,that fight against Ray is about as much of a yardstick as Barrera v Khan or even Ali against Holmes.
Ray was shot at elite level the moment the Hagler fight finished.Truth be told,by 82 his prime had reached it's closing stages.

The Leonard that beat Kalule at 154 destroys any version of Norris.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Felix,that fight against Ray is about as much of a yardstick as Barrera v Khan or even Ali against Holmes.
> Ray was shot at elite level the moment the Hagler fight finished.Truth be told,by 82 his prime had reached it's closing stages.
> 
> The Leonard that beat Kalule at 154 destroys any version of Norris.


That's not what redrooster told me :hey


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Norris would give everyone a boxing lesson.
> He beat Sugar Ray Leonard for fuck's sake.
> Floyd beat a shot Oscar and Manny beat Miguel Freakin Cotto.
> 
> ...


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> That's not what redrooster told me :hey


Red would tell you that Hearns was stopped unfairly and that Duran was right to quit against Ray.
Just heard recently that he used to fap to Leonard-Camacho.

I'm guessing he enjoyed Ali-Berbick too.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Red would tell you that Hearns was stopped unfairly and that Duran was right to quit against Ray.
> Just heard recently that he used to fap to Leonard-Camacho.
> 
> I'm guessing he enjoyed Ali-Berbick too.


I enjoyed Leonard Camacho tbh


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Felix,that fight against Ray is about as much of a yardstick as Barrera v Khan or even Ali against Holmes.
> Ray was shot at elite level the moment the Hagler fight finished.Truth be told,by 82 his prime had reached it's closing stages.
> 
> The Leonard that beat Kalule at 154 destroys any version of Norris.


Which is a damn shame because it was probably simultaneously in the midst his peak :lol: The detached retina, long layoffs and alcohol/drug use did him in pretty good. He was firing on all cylinders during the Kalule/Hearns/Finch stretch. As complete as he could get.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Which is a damn shame because it was probably simultaneously in the midst his peak :lol: The detached retina, long layoffs and alcohol/drug use did him in pretty good. He was firing on all cylinders during the Kalule/Hearns/Finch stretch. As complete as he could get.


Exactly.
So the Norris fight was what? 8 years past his prime?
That was like dog years back in the day.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Exactly.
> So the Norris fight was what? 8 years past his prime?
> That was like dog years back in the day.







Absolutely phenomenal punching exhibition. Ridiculous speed.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Absolutely phenomenal punching exhibition. Ridiculous speed.


Genius at work.Very crisp! :lol:
It's amazing how short a distance some of those killer punches travel.It's a very short range for so much power.
The walk forward after he first hurt Finch knowing that no guard was needed was typical.Leonard often KO'd with real style.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> That's not what redrooster told me :hey


RedRooster is a cornball, who was destroyed countless times. He loves being abused though.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Absolutely phenomenal punching exhibition. Ridiculous speed.


 Imo one of the best finishers in boxing history.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Imo one of the best finishers in boxing history.


Imo as well.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

The best finisher I've ever seen.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> The best finisher I've ever seen.


I concur.Very few survived being in real trouble.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm not shitting on leonard, but lettuce be honest here, Bruce Finch would get dominated in by the best in any 154 division.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> I'm not shitting on leonard, but lettuce be honest here, Bruce Finch would get dominated in by the best in any 154 division.


I think the point was that he could be a devastating finisher mate.Just a good example.


----------



## techks (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> It's not that Norris was some kind of invincible beast.
> 
> But he certainly was a talented fighter. Admittedly with a few glaring flaws and embarrassing defeats.
> 
> ...


Thats what I'm saying. I would never favor him over a SRR, SRL(Kalule or around that level), Mccallum, Hearns,etc. but now he could beat everyone. Angulo or Lara have the only chance to beat him and fighting Alvarez makes Norris look like a god imho.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Imo one of the best finishers in boxing history.





tommygun711 said:


> imo as well





Pedderrs said:


> The best finisher I've ever seen.





PityTheFool said:


> I concur. Very few survived being in real trouble.





FloydPatterson said:


> I'm not shitting on leonard, but lettuce be honest here, Bruce Finch would get dominated in by the best in any 154 division.





bballchump11 said:


> He's my favorite from the Fab 4. Like you said, he just knew how to win. The mofo was Bill Belichick, but in boxing.


Did anyone have a better career than him? I mean aside from being recognized for his talent and ability as one of the most complete boxer-punchers in history, being very arguably Top 10-15 P4P all-time, the #2 welterweight of all-time, beating four certified ATGs of varying styles (three of whom were #1 P4P at the time and the other easily Top 5) with a combined record of 204-3 with all of the losses avenged and a couple of which you could speculate as to whether Ray Robinson would've even fought them given he turned down a career high payday against Charley Burley which would've probably trumped Kid Gavilan as his best win. Contrary to the myth that SRL fought only the likes of the aforementioned, he actually otherwise cleaned out the entire 147 division. He was also the first boxer to take in over $100 US million in purse money, he has a current net worth of $120 US million, at no time was he was ever at the mercy of or got robbed by any promoter, he called all the shots, he has no brain damage. no degenerative diseases, no physical handicaps. Shit, he even still looks about 20 years younger than he is.

Professional CV:

Thomas Hearns TKO14 (32-0-0, 30 KO] [#1 P4P] [#1 WW/WBA Titlist] 
Wilfred Benitez TKO15 (38-0-1, 25 KO [#5 P4P] [RING/Lineal/WBC 147 Champ]
Marvin Hagler SD12 (62-2-2, 52 KO] [#1 P4P] [RING/Lineal/WBC 160 Champ]
Roberto Duran TKO8 (72-1-0, 56 KO] [#1 P4P] [RING/Lineal/WBC 147 Champ]
Ayub Kalule TKO9 (36-0-0, 18 KO) [RING/Lineal/WBA 154 Champ]

Combined Record at the times fought: 240-3-3
Unavenged Losses/Draws: 0 
Average Age of Opponent: 26.2

As mentioned, he beat numerous other world rated welters and light middles from 1978-82 including (in chronological order):

Floyd Mayweather Sr. TKO10 (No. 6 WW)
Randy Shields UD10 (No. 4 WW)
Johnny Gant TKO8 (No. 4 WW)
Adolfo Viruet UD10 (No. 8 JWW) (@147)
Tony Chiaverini RTD4 (No. 4 LMW) (@154) 
Pete Ranzany TKO4 (No. 5 WW)
Andy Price KO1 (No. 8 WW)
Dave Green KO4 (No. 7 WW)
Bruce Finch TKO3 (No. 6 WW)

Amateur:

As an amateur he went 145-5 (75 KO) though I'd say based on everything that can be gathered, it just as well should stand at 148-2. He defeated Andres Aldama of Cuba (5-0) in the Final of the '76 Olympics and put him on queer street in the process. Aldama was a big favorite going in, had gotten a first round bye and had KO'ed all four of his previous opponents (notably Josef Nagy and Vladimir Kolev) heading into the final in two rounds or less. He would move up to welterweight after the defeat and win Gold at the Pan American Games in 1979 and Gold at the 1980 Olympics in Moscow by beating John Mugabi in the final. One of Leonard's losses was a robbery to Greg Whaley whose jaw Leonard fractured; another to Soviet champ Anatoli Kamnev who felt so embarrassed by the result and boos of his own home crowd that he walked across the ring and handed Leonard the trophy he'd just wrongfully won (later avenged officially); a third on disqualification to Jan Kwacz of Poland (in Poland) when the referee felt Leonard had hit after the bell in a fight that probably would've better been served to end in a Leonard RSC1 win due to the nature of it's one-sidedness considering Leonard dropped him three times. The other two defeats were more legitimate and came against Randy Shields - a future world rated welter in the pros - which Leonard avenged as a pro and Ronnie Shields (avenged as an AMA).

1976 Olympics Run

Ulf Carlsson (Sweden) W 3 (5-0) 
Valery Limasov (Soviet Union) W 3 (5-0) 
Clinton McKenzie (Great Britain) W 3 (5-0) 
Ulrich Beyer (East Germany) W 3 (5-0) 
Kazimierz Szczerba (Poland) W 3 (5-0)
Andres Aldama (Cuba) W 3 (5-0)

1976 (63.5 Kg) Light-Welterweight Rankings (courtesy Il Duce/Senor Pepe)
#1 ...... Ayub Kalule (Uganda) 
#2 ...... Andres Aldama (Cuba) 
#3 ...... Ray Leonard (USA) 
#4 ...... Ulrich Beyer (East Germany) 
#5 ...... Jozsef Nagy (Hungary) 
#6 ...... Bruce Curry (USA) 
#7 ...... Calistrat Cutov (Romania) 
#8 ...... Ronnie Shields(USA) 
#9 ...... Valeri Limasov (USSR) 
#1 0......Ulf Carlsson (Sweden) 
#1 1......Vladimir Kolev (Bulgaria)
#1 2......Kazimierz Szczerba (Poland) 
#1 3......Clinton McKenzie (Great Britain)
#1 4......Duque Stable (Cuba) 
#1 5..... Jesus Navas (Venezuela)

Unfortunately, Kalule did not compete as there was a protest going on at the time from the African nations and instead moved to Copenhagen, Denmark to turn professional where he'd eventually meet Leonard at 154 lbs for the world title. @Dealt_with @The Undefeated Gaul Just out of curiosity, how you guys rating Leonard as an ATG amateur at light welterweight? Who beats him there at his best and how exactly? How do you rate him as compared to some of his fellow successful American Olympians turned Pro?

Pernell Whitaker: 201-14
Roy Jones: 122-12
Michael Spinks: 93-7
Muhammad Ali: 100-5
Meldrick Taylor: 99-4
Andre Ward: 114-5
Floyd Mayweather Jr: 84-6

Achievement Scroll:

Light Welterweight Pan American Games Gold Medalist (1975)
Light Welterweight Olympic Gold Medalist (1976)
World Welterweight Champion (1979-82)
World Junior Middleweight (1981)
World Middleweight Champion (1987) 
WBC Super Middleweight Champion (1988-1990)
WBC Light Heavyweight Champion (1988-89) 
International Boxing Hall of Fame inductee (1997)
World Boxing Hall of Fame inductee (1996)
U.S. Olympic Hall of Fame inductee (1985) 
The Ring Fighter of the Decade (1980s) 
KO Outstanding Fighter of the Decade (1980s) 
Mark Grossinger Etess Award for Boxer of the Decade (1980s) 
Boxing Illustrated Fighter of the Year (1979, 1981, and 1987
BWAA Fighter of the Year (1976, 1979, and 1981) 
KO Fighter of the Year (1979, 1981, and 1987) 
The Ring Fighter of the Year (1979 and 1981) 
Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (1981)
The Ring Fight of the Year (1981, 1987)
The Ring Upset of the Year (1987)

:conf


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

when you put it that way...........


great post btw


----------



## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Thomas Hearns TKO14 (32-0-0, 30 KO] [#1 P4P] [#1 WW/WBA Titlist]
> Wilfred Benitez TKO15 (38-0-1, 25 KO [#5 P4P] [RING/Lineal/WBC 147 Champ]
> Marvin Hagler SD12 (62-2-2, 52 KO] [#1 P4P] [RING/Lineal/WBC 160 Champ]
> Roberto Duran TKO8 (72-1-0, 56 KO] [#1 P4P] [RING/Lineal/WBC 147 Champ]
> ...


What's with the unavenged loses and draws? He never avenged Hearns II and got his ass kicked by Norris and Camacho. Or is this some weird, agenda-driven stat that only counts the first Hearns fight and none of his loses other than Duran?


----------



## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

techks said:


> Thats what I'm saying. I would never favor him over a SRR, SRL(Kalule or around that level), Mccallum, Hearns,etc. but now he could beat everyone. Angulo or Lara have the only chance to beat him and fighting Alvarez makes Norris look like a god imho.


You know, Floyd Mayweather sometimes fights at 154. And, you can say you'd pick Norris to beat him, but, if you do, you'll sound like an idiot to most of us.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> What's with the unavenged loses and draws? He never avenged Hearns II and got his ass kicked by Norris and Camacho. Or is this some weird, agenda-driven stat that only counts the first Hearns fight and none of his loses other than Duran?


Eh? I was referencing Hagler and Duran's losses at the time he fought them. Hagler stopped Watts and Monroe x2 in rematches, Duran did the same to DeJesus twice over. Norris got his ass kicked by boxing, unfortunately.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

damn yeah Leonard did have one of the best careers. Mayweather is making a good blueprint for himself from a business and well being standpoint except for the jail stint. 
I really wish Pryor would have took the career high payday and got that ass whooping :-(


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

And Norris is so damn gifted, but damn, he has bad luck


----------



## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> The best finisher I've ever seen.







Pipino did a better job on Ranzany :yep
@Hands of Iron


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DrMo said:


> Pipino did a better job on Ranzany :yep
> 
> @Hands of Iron


:lol:

I was expecting a quip loaded with a lot more vitriol than that, Mo.

Leonard has the highest number of little whiny bitch detractors that I've ever seen on the internet. Not including you, of course.


----------



## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> I was expecting a quip loaded with a lot more vitriol than that, Mo.
> 
> Leonard has the highest number of little whiny bitch detractors that I've ever seen on the internet. Not including you, of course.


A lot of people have a lot of love for Hearns, Hagler &/or Duran & Leonard beat them all. Its strange that he seems to be less popular than all of them.

Its probably due to ducking Curry, Pryor & McCallum tbh


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DrMo said:


> A lot of people have a lot of love for Hearns, Hagler &/or Duran & Leonard beat them all. Its strange that he seems to be less popular than all of them.
> 
> Its probably due to ducking Curry, Pryor & McCallum tbh


Yeah, they catch serious feelings over this shit :rofl I'm actually a bigger Duran fan, but what Leonard did for his standing is pretty immeasurable. I can't ever understand their angle with that one.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> #2 welterweight of all-time


Cuba hates you right now.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Leonard ducked a rematch with Hearns. Its irrefutable


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> I really wish Pryor would have took the career high payday and got that ass whooping :-(


The fight was supposed to happen.

Pryor took the payday.

Leonard's detached retina, retirement, Pryor's drug addiction = no fight.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> The fight was supposed to happen.
> 
> Pryor took the payday.
> 
> Leonard's detached retina, reirement, Pryor's drug addiction = no fight.


:deal

Was scheduled to go down after Leonard took care of Stafford that May. (1982)

And Cuba understands, Lester.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Leonard ducked a rematch with Hearns. Its irrefutable


It really says a lot about how highly regarded and dangerous Hearns was thought of when by mid-1981, he was considered the #1 fighter in boxing (Per KO Magazine, RING wasn't into all that yet 'officially') even though it was Leonard who had the deeper resume and experience, held wins over Duran and Benitez already. Shit, Leonard was even a slight 2-1 underdog. Hearns almost made good on it. There really wasn't any time for a rematch while both were still at the top of their games though -- Hearns moved up, Leonard had a cake title defense against a rated guy in Finch and was working out a deal for Pryor to STFU when the retina news hit.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

> @Dealt_with @The Undefeated Gaul Just out of curiosity, how you guys rating Leonard as an ATG amateur at light welterweight? Who beats him there at his best and how exactly? How do you rate him as compared to some of his fellow successful American Olympians turned Pro?


It's okay guys, I'll answer those questions.

01. The GOAT
02. Nobody. I wish I had a snippet of Richard Sherman's interview with Ed Werder for this.
03. The Best


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Did anyone have a better career than him? I mean aside from being recognized for his talent and ability as one of the most complete boxer-punchers in history, being very arguably Top 10-15 P4P all-time, the #2 welterweight of all-time, beating four certified ATGs of varying styles (three of whom were #1 P4P at the time and the other easily Top 5) with a combined record of 204-3 with all of the losses avenged and a couple of which you could speculate as to whether Ray Robinson would've even fought them given he turned down a career high payday against Charley Burley which would've probably trumped Kid Gavilan as his best win. Contrary to the myth that SRL fought only the likes of the aforementioned, he actually otherwise cleaned out the entire 147 division. He was also the first boxer to take in over $100 US million in purse money, he has a current net worth of $120 US million, at no time was he was ever at the mercy of or got robbed by any promoter, he called all the shots, he has no brain damage. no degenerative diseases, no physical handicaps. Shit, he even still looks about 20 years younger than he is.
> 
> Professional CV:
> 
> ...


Check that for a post!
That's the sort of post the man himself would approve of.Proud of you man.:smile


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Check that for a post!
> That's the sort of post the man himself would approve of.Proud of you man.:smile


Wish I still had the link for an interview/conversation Leonard did with I think FoxSports or something like that at some kind of bar... :lol: .... Anyway, he was casually throwing F-bombs and speaking more comfortable and freely than any time I've ever seen before or since.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> he was considered the#1 fighter in boxing (Per KO Magazine, RING wasn't into all that yet 'officially'


Gomez was considered the man back then:twisted



Hands of Iron said:


> Pryor


Pryor's a bit underrated these days, don't you think, HoI?

Maybe underrated is not the right word but unloved maybe.

Leonard is rated very highly by many today and has a huge fanbase.
All this talk of Leonard ducking Pryor has been infuriating them for years.
Arguello a consummate gentleman and one of the most respected fighters in boxing history.
And he's been beaten twice.

Plenty of boxing fans don't like him or even don't rate him cuz of that.

The pendulum has swung too far the other way - the omnipresent black bottle, accusations of ducking Leonard/Duran, string of embarrassing losses in hypothetical fights.

Or maybe I've been reading too many TurboTime's posts lately who thinks Oscar would beat anybody at 140?:smile


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Did anyone have a better career than him? I mean aside from being recognized for his talent and ability as one of the most complete boxer-punchers in history, being very arguably Top 10-15 P4P all-time, the #2 welterweight of all-time, beating four certified ATGs of varying styles (three of whom were #1 P4P at the time and the other easily Top 5) with a combined record of 204-3 with all of the losses avenged and a couple of which you could speculate as to whether Ray Robinson would've even fought them given he turned down a career high payday against Charley Burley which would've probably trumped Kid Gavilan as his best win. Contrary to the myth that SRL fought only the likes of the aforementioned, he actually otherwise cleaned out the entire 147 division. He was also the first boxer to take in over $100 US million in purse money, he has a current net worth of $120 US million, at no time was he was ever at the mercy of or got robbed by any promoter, he called all the shots, he has no brain damage. no degenerative diseases, no physical handicaps. Shit, he even still looks about 20 years younger than he is.
> 
> Professional CV:
> 
> ...


Where did you get your p4p stats?

I don't think hearns was ever number 1.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Gomez was considered the man back then :twisted


It wasn't even necessarily 'KO Magazine' list was it? I believe it was actually just a wide poll or panel amongst numerous different people directly involved in the business, predominantly writers.

1980 
1 - Roberto Duran 
2 - Sugar Ray Leonard 
3 - Wilfredo Gomez 
4 - Danny Lopez 
5 - Pipino Cuevas

1981
1 - Thomas Hearns 
2 - Sugar Ray Leonard 
3 - Marvin Hagler 
4 - Larry Holmes 
5 - Alexis Arguello

1982
1. Sugar Ray Leonard 
2. Alexis Arguello 
3. Marvin Hagler 
4. Salvador Sanchez 
5. Wilfred Benitez

1983
1. Marvin Hagler 
2. Aaron Pryor 
3. Larry Holmes 
4. Michael Spinks 
5. Jeff Chandler

1984
1. Marvin Hagler 
2. Aaron Pryor 
3. Larry Holmes 
4. Eusebio Pedroza 
5. Hector Camacho

1985
1. Marvin Hagler 
2. Hector Camacho 
3. Michael Spinks 
4. Donald Curry 
5. Thomas Hearns

1986
1. Marvin Hagler 
2. Mike Tyson 
3. Donald Curry 
4. Thomas Hearns 
5. Edwin Rosario

No Poll or List released in or for 1987. Hagler was still considered the guy after Mugabi.



> Pryor's a bit underrated these days, don't you think, HoI?
> 
> Maybe underrated is not the right word but unloved maybe.
> 
> ...


I do think it's a bit unfair. I just hate seeing posts from people that are widely ignorant or misinformed on the matter of SRL. Usually, they aren't even saying as Pryor fans but rather just a lazy ass slate against Leonard.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Luf said:


> Where did you get your p4p stats?
> 
> I don't think hearns was ever number 1.





TBooze said:


> Here is a list of KO's/The Ring's annual poll from 1980 to 2006:
> 
> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-n...25282%29.jpg
> 
> ...


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Gomez was considered the man back then:twisted
> 
> Pryor's a bit underrated these days, don't you think, HoI?
> 
> ...


I think Pryor has a shot against almost anyone H2H at 140.It's just a pity for him that his most (in?)famous wins are against an ATG who was well north of his best weight and a shot Cervantes.
But the bottom line is,his resume isn't all that deep,and he couldn't compete at welter.
Brilliant fighter to watch,but a real lack of notable names on his victim list.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> It wasn't even necessarily 'KO Magazine' list was it? I believe it was actually just a wide poll or panel amongst numerous different people directly involved in the business, predominantly writers.


Found this - from CBZ:



> From 1980 to 1988 These supposed Yearly Pound for Pound Ring rankings, are simply the Year End Polls that were run first by KO Magazine and then by the Ring in the late 90's.
> 
> From 1989 on, they are using the ACTUAL Year end Pound for Pound ranking from Ring Magazine, listing the December rankings for that year.
> 
> ...


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

So at the end of the year the mag just listed who it thought the best 5 were.

That'd be akin to someone listing golovkin number 1 p4p now tbh.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Luf said:


> So at the end of the year the mag just listed who it thought the best 5 were.
> 
> That'd be akin to someone listing golovkin number 1 p4p now tbh.


Nah, it was the top ten.

Pity, You know you miss this guy :rofl :lol:



duranimal said:


> Excellent.
> 
> They'd had a few sniffters earlier i recken so he was nice & loose, vicious nasty fucker is sugar ray & thats what made him the champion & legend he is & as he said, yeh the $$$$ are good but it's all about bragging rites hence the dismissal of Mayweather with a wave of the hand.





duranimal said:


> Absolutly spot on! :good James Toney is just another example of a boxer who is streets ahead of this phantom farce Mayweather. :deal
> 
> Fuckin skills!!! If mayweather had the skills he would'nt have spent these last 6 years avoiding all clear & present dangers, his resume is piss poor at best! Mayweather is just a gob shyte fraud, if Castillo can fuck him up & Judah best him for 5 rounds then Mayweather's gonna get fuckin murdered by Duran/SRL/Hearns & co. Only a premature ejaclator would think that mayweather has more skill!!!! SKILL? What Fucking SKILL??? Sqeaking past an old man in DLH, WBU standard HATTON! C Level scrapper GATTI, D Level BAG of CEMENT Baldomir :lol:
> 
> ...


 @Bogotazo @JMP


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I think Pryor has a shot against almost anyone H2H at 140.


Let's not go overboard here - nobody has a shot against Muangsurin.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Pity, You know you miss this guy :rofl :lol:





Pachilles said:


> I'd De Jesus you in the face, then i'd Leonard you outside, Benitez your head on the door, Laing your teeth on the curb, Hagler you up and down the street, then Hearns you into orbit. Then i'd Sims you back down to earth, Leonard you again, Lawlor salt in the wounds, Pazienza your mouth and then your asshole, Camacho you silly, Castro your testicles, Joppy your wife, make you Gonzalez the salad and then Camacho you silly once more for good measure.





Pachilles said:


> Welter Roberto Duran vs Welter Manny Paquiao
> 
> This is how i see the fight playing out. Duran comes into the fight in perfect shape(after the fight Durantards claim he was shot and past his prime, didnt train at all, was drinking heavily and had a poorly tummy). Duran and Pacquaio rush each other, clashing heads, Pacquiao's is cut above the eye and is bullied into the corner, after taking numerous hooks and uppercuts he wildly fires back, flooring Duran. Duran beats the count and survives the first round by grappling. Over the next three rounds, halted from advancing in fear of Pacquiao's power he tasted in the first, Pacquiao rushes in and out peppering Duran with dazzling flurries and straight lefts. In the last minute of the 4th, frustrated, Duran intentionally low blows Pacquiao, then rushes in a furious rage attempting to capitalise on the winded Pac. Pac fires an eight punch combo in return and floors Duran once more. Duran beats the count and survives the round. Coming out for the fifth, Duran eats 5 consecutive unaswered straights, demoralised and weak hearted, he calls it quits at :057 in the 5th round.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@Lester1583 :rofl

Duranology. I fuckin love the idea of that. :yep


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah, it was the top ten.
> 
> Pity, You know you miss this guy :rofl :lol:
> 
> @Bogotazo @JMP


I do miss @duranimal (Did he even come over?)
He was a good laugh and is absolutely my favourite Leonard hater (@DrMo close second) and was always able to have a good debate and keep it real and humorous at the end.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I do miss @duranimal (Did he even come over?)
> He was a good laugh and is absolutely my favourite Leonard hater (@DrMo close second) and was always able to have a good debate and keep it real and humorous at the end.


 @duranimal did come over :yep


----------



## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Eh? I was referencing Hagler and Duran's losses at the time he fought them. Hagler stopped Watts and Monroe x2 in rematches, Duran did the same to DeJesus twice over. Norris got his ass kicked by boxing, unfortunately.


Oh, I thought that was in reference to Leonard.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah, it was the top ten.
> 
> Pity, You know you miss this guy :rofl :lol:
> 
> @Bogotazo @JMP


:lol: "Skill? What fucking skill?"

"Hide behind the shoulder and hope for the best " :rofl


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Amateur:
> 
> As an amateur he went 145-5 (75 KO) though I'd say based on everything that can be gathered, it just as well should stand at 148-2. He defeated Andres Aldama of Cuba (5-0) in the Final of the '76 Olympics and put him on queer street in the process. Aldama was a big favorite going in, had gotten a first round bye and had KO'ed all four of his previous opponents (notably Josef Nagy and Vladimir Kolev) heading into the final in two rounds or less. He would move up to welterweight after the defeat and win Gold at the Pan American Games in 1979 and Gold at the 1980 Olympics in Moscow by beating John Mugabi in the final. One of Leonard's losses was a robbery to Greg Whaley whose jaw Leonard fractured; another to Soviet champ Anatoli Kamnev who felt so embarrassed by the result and boos of his own home crowd that he walked across the ring and handed Leonard the trophy he'd just wrongfully won (later avenged officially); a third on disqualification to Jan Kwacz of Poland (in Poland) when the referee felt Leonard had hit after the bell in a fight that probably would've better been served to end in a Leonard RSC1 win due to the nature of it's one-sidedness considering Leonard dropped him three times. The other two defeats were more legitimate and came against Randy Shields - a future world rated welter in the pros - which Leonard avenged as a pro and Ronnie Shields (avenged as an AMA).
> 
> ...


Roy Jones, Ali, Leonard were in the same tier. The others, not so much. Although one thing is, Mayweather at ams is underrated because he's only 84-6 and the fact that he didn't fight very good fighters throughout his amateur career, as well as having close wars against Augie Sanchez - although some of them could have been Mayweather victories, but in the Olympics, he beat two complete monsters in Lorenzo Aragon and Serafim Todorov. Well, he did edge Todorov. As an amateur, SRL was complete and would have whooped Floyd, I don't doubt that.

I don't really believe any can beat SRL. 
Emilio Correa - a welter, I can't find any footage of him
Hector Vincent - light welter, there is footage, you'll like him Hands, honestly. Having said that, I've only seen one fight. 
Nino Benvenuti - a welter - there's only one fight, and I haven't seen it yet
I would imagine them to stand a chance.

Obviously the victory over Andres Aldama is one of the GOAT victories of any pro or amateur victory anyone can ever have. Highly skilled and just so happened to be a great knockout artist. To beat Andres in that construct is with the Fab Four wins. When mentioning SRL's best wins, this must be mentioned. btw Andres bested your boy Mike McCallum in the ams.

I saw only one fight of Kulej of Poland who is a light welter amateur great, I really don't feel he's capable. SRL would do particularly well against him I feel.

I might be alone here, but although I don't feel SRL would lose to a new timer in Boonjumnong, I feel Boomjumnong can give him a hard time.

SRL a lock for Top 3 H2H in pros.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

So is this thread about Terry Norris at 154 today or Leonard?


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> So is this thread about Terry Norris at 154 today or Leonard?


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> So is this thread about Terry Norris at 154 today or Leonard?


Just like I told you about the Hagler book Maxie.
Ray can steal the show without even trying.With @Hands of Iron in this stellar form,this could run and run.:lol:


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Did anyone have a better career than him? I mean aside from being recognized for his talent and ability as one of the most complete boxer-punchers in history, being very arguably Top 10-15 P4P all-time, the #2 welterweight of all-time, beating four certified ATGs of varying styles (three of whom were #1 P4P at the time and the other easily Top 5) with a combined record of 204-3 with all of the losses avenged and a couple of which you could speculate as to whether Ray Robinson would've even fought them given he turned down a career high payday against Charley Burley which would've probably trumped Kid Gavilan as his best win. Contrary to the myth that SRL fought only the likes of the aforementioned, he actually otherwise cleaned out the entire 147 division. He was also the first boxer to take in over $100 US million in purse money, he has a current net worth of $120 US million, at no time was he was ever at the mercy of or got robbed by any promoter, he called all the shots, he has no brain damage. no degenerative diseases, no physical handicaps. Shit, he even still looks about 20 years younger than he is.
> 
> Professional CV:
> 
> ...


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

And the thread is about a guy who beat him!:rofl

Howzat for stealing some thunder?


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)




----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> So is this thread about Terry Norris at 154 today or Leonard?


About Norris' historical victory over a prime Leonard, it's importance to future generations, Leonard's shameless ducking of Cuevas, Oscar losing to Terrible Terry 10 out of 10.

And Mayweather being a poor man's Canto at 154.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> About Norris' historical victory over a prime Leonard, it's importance to future generations, Leonard's shameless ducking of Cuevas, Oscar losing to Terrible Terry 10 out of 10.
> 
> And Mayweather being a poor man's Canto at 154.


_After Leonard won his first world title by stopping Benitez for the WBC welterweight title in November 1979, there loomed an obvious candidate for a big money fight, and his name was not Roberto Duran. In early 1980, the mexican welterweight Jose "Pepino" Cuevas was boxing's longest reigning champion having won his WBA title in 1976 and defended it on ten occasions.

A showdown between the two 147-pound claimants seemed not only natural but inevitable, and the ground work for the fight was laid by Leonard's first WBC title defense, a fourth round one-punch knockout over England's Davey Boy Green in March of 1980.

A deal for the Leonard-Cuevas fight had actually been reached, with the approval of both sanctioning bodies, but the proposed match-up rapidly began to unravel amid charges of backroom politicking involving some unlikely bedfellows.

Although Leonard was the standard bearer of the World Boxing Council, the organization was headquartered in Mexico, and WBC President Jose Sulaiman implored his countryman to step aside and pave the way for a Duran challenge to Leonard (a cynic might have noted Sulaiman's cozy relationship with Don King at work in these machinations: Leonard-Cuevas would have been a big fight on which King would not have made a single peso).

The World Boxing Association, whose title Cuevas held, was based in Duran's home country, and the military government there turned the thumbscrews on a pair of Panamanian officials, WBA president Rodrigo Sanchez and Elias Cordova, the chairman of the organization's championship committee.

Col. Ruben Paredes, who headed up the National Guard of Panamanian dictator Gen. Omar Torrijos, paid a visit to the WBA offices and strongly intimated that it would be in Sanchez's best interests to pull the plug on Leonard-Cuevas. Paredes represented the muscle of Torrijos. Torrijos principal padrone was Carlos Eleta, Duran's influential backer._

RIP Jose Sulaiman


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> _After Leonard won his first world title by stopping Benitez for the WBC welterweight title in November 1979, there loomed an obvious candidate for a big money fight, and his name was not Roberto Duran. In early 1980, the mexican welterweight Jose "Pepino" Cuevas was boxing's longest reigning champion having won his WBA title in 1976 and defended it on ten occasions.
> 
> A showdown between the two 147-pound claimants seemed not only natural but inevitable, and the ground work for the fight was laid by Leonard's first WBC title defense, a fourth round one-punch knockout over England's Davey Boy Green in March of 1980.
> 
> ...


I absolutely knew that one was coming.
This fucking guy could find a relevant column from the Salt Lake City Anti-Mormon Defence League newsletter from 1976 if it was required.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Obviously the victory over Andres Aldama is one of the GOAT victories of any pro or amateur victory anyone can ever have. Highly skilled and just so happened to be a great knockout artist. To beat Andres in that construct is with the Fab Four wins.


One of the best but...

Igor Vysotsky beat Teofilo Stevenson.

Twice.

Once by KO.

Nobody's ever done that to Stevenson.

Vysotsky was the reason Stevenson never turned pro - he shattered his confidence forever:yep


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> One of the best but...
> 
> Igor Vysotsky beat Teofilo Stevenson.
> 
> ...


Definitely was one of the best victories, Andres fought like a veteran yet he was 20 years old when he fought Leonard.
21 others beat Teo though tbh but nevertheless, a monstrous win by Igor, the thorn in Teo's mind. 
Many great pros were knocked out in the ams tbh, heavyweight is where KO's are most frequent.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

DrMo said:


> Pipino did a better job on Ranzany :yep
> 
> @Hands of Iron


Ray Leonard had Ranzany finished about 40 seconds after the initial shot. Pipino was taking a lifetime. Not as clinical or as aesthetically pleasing of a finish.


----------



## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Ray Leonard had Ranzany finished about 40 seconds after the initial shot.* Pipino was taking a lifetime*. Not as clinical or as aesthetically pleasing of a finish.


:lol:

I love the Leonard-Ranzany fight btw, I was just winding up Hands


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

@Hands of Iron in your achievement scroll you forgot *Most Retired Champion of All Time


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Here's footage of Vysotsky and Ali. Ali clearly is treating it like a sparring session but turns it up a little at about the 7:30 mark.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> @Hands of Iron in your achievement scroll you forgot *Most Retired Champion of All Time


You'll notice, if not already then in time, that the vast majority of my defense of him is predominantly concerned with 1975-82. There's very little to realistically criticize there Maxie. It's why I'm not really as fussed as a lot of people over the Hagler fight... That has nothing to do with and no impact on his standing at welterweight, a historically strong division he truly cleaned out in a very short amount of time. There were a couple guys he missed due only to Hearns blasting onto the scene and eating up a portion (the big fish being Cuevas) and when it came time to unify and fight Hearns (even though SRL held the legitimate lineage), he fought Hearns. Walked through hell to get it done too and was an underdog going in. That bout -- and the how he handled himself and fought back to the ass kicking he was getting in the first Duran fight -- really say everything about what kind of fighter and champion he was. Before it became a circus, Leonard was legit great.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You'll notice, if not already then in time, that the vast majority of my defense of him is predominantly concerned with 1975-82. There's very little to realistically criticize there Maxie. It's why I'm not really as fussed as a lot of people over the Hagler fight... That has nothing to do with and no impact on his standing at welterweight, a historically strong division he truly cleaned out in a very short amount of time. There were a couple guys he missed due only to Hearns blasting onto the scene and eating up a portion (the big fish being Cuevas) and when it came time to unify and fight Hearns (even though SRL held the legitimate lineage), he fought Hearns. Walked through hell to get it done too and was an underdog going in. That bout -- and the how he handled himself and fought back to the ass kicking he was getting in the first Duran fight -- really say everything about what kind of fighter and champion he was. Before it became a circus, Leonard was legit great.


No doubt I don't hate Leonard I'm actually a fan (except when it comes to Leonard v Hagler) he has one of the greatest records and is one of the best, film wise, I've ever seen.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Absolutely phenomenal punching exhibition. Ridiculous speed.





Pedderrs said:


> The best finisher I've ever seen.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Terry don't care about amateur achievements


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Wasn't he like 291-4? :lol:


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

That Texas amateur circut is no joke, churning out fighters like Norris, and today, fighters like Errol Spence, The Charlos.....


But seriously, whats Norris' deal with hitting downed opponents......


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Roy Jones, Ali, Leonard were in the same tier. The others, not so much. Although one thing is, Mayweather at ams is underrated because he's only 84-6 and the fact that he didn't fight very good fighters throughout his amateur career, as well as having close wars against Augie Sanchez - although some of them could have been Mayweather victories, but in the Olympics, he beat two complete monsters in Lorenzo Aragon and Serafim Todorov. Well, he did edge Todorov. As an amateur, SRL was complete and would have whooped Floyd, I don't doubt that.
> 
> I don't really believe any can beat SRL.
> Emilio Correa - a welter, I can't find any footage of him
> ...


Great post.

Aldama stopped McCallum, which nobody managed in the pros. It would've been interesting to see if Donald Curry (yeah, him again :rofl) would've prevented him from ever winning Gold had the US competed in the 1980 games.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Wasn't he like 291-4? :lol:


:lol: yeah wtf



> A star baseball player during his high school years, Norris bypassed a career on the diamond for one in the ring, amassing a stellar 291-4 amateur record. Displaying a stunning combination of hand and foot speed as well as the ability to throw dizzying combos, Norris' athletic ability was an uncanny attribute in the ring.


why didn't this headcase go to the Olympics?


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

N/m I got the answer

MP: In May 1992, reigning WBA welterweight champion Meldrick Taylor moved-up to challenge for your title. You demonstrated impeccable timing, cat-like reflexes and razor-sharp technique, stopping Taylor in four. I feel it was your best performance ever. Where does it rank in your mind and were you at your peak for this match?

*Terry Norris-* Meldrick Taylor was an Olympic Gold Medalist, the same as Ray Leonard and that scared me too, him being an Olympic gold medalist. I hadn't made it to the Olympics, I tried but I lost in the semi-finals. So I knew these Olympic guys, the extra skills and experience that I didn't have, I didn't possess. I always trained extra hard because I didn't get through the top, top level of my amateur career. With Meldrick I stepped into the ring totally prepared to fight him and I stopped him in four rounds. It was another great feeling for me.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Taylor had no business at 154.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@bballchump11 Roy Jones can't deal with what Ray Leonard achieved and was for USA Boxing as an Amateur & Pro. :yep

He's fighting with Whitaker.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Great post.
> 
> Aldama stopped McCallum, which nobody managed in the pros. It would've been interesting to see if Donald Curry (yeah, him again :rofl) would've prevented him from ever winning Gold had the US competed in the 1980 games.


lol fucking Donald Curry. We can never know, it's so hard to get wins at Olympics, no one is ever guaranteed to get the Gold. I've seen far too many upsets, too many losses from top medalists to see Curry as a sure thing for Gold, although I haven't seen his fights in the ams anyways. I really wonder what names his 400-4 consists of.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> lol fucking Donald Curry. We can never know, it's so hard to get wins at Olympics, no one is ever guaranteed to get the Gold. I've seen far too many upsets, too many losses from top medalists to see Curry as a sure thing for Gold, although I haven't seen his fights in the ams anyways. I really wonder what names his 400-4 consists of.


I've got a strong feeling we haven't seen the last of Donald Curry in these threads. His legend has the ability to be everywhere and nowhere at once.

400-4 and the 1980 US Boycott of the Moscow games forever looms large, in the shadows.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Taylor had no business at 154.


Terry loved fighting those midgets.

He wanted Chavez badly back then.

He'd be all over Cotto, Pac and Floyd today.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Taylor had no business at 154.


seriously, his management screw him over


Hands of Iron said:


> @bballchump11 Roy Jones can't deal with what Ray Leonard achieved and was for USA Boxing as an Amateur & Pro. :yep
> 
> He's fighting with Whitaker.


Roy whooped Ray in sparring when he was younger :hey


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Am I wrong in ranking meldrick taylor as an ATG strictly in a h2h scenario
@bballchump11 it was in preparation for the Lalonde fight, right?


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I've got a strong feeling we haven't seen the last of Donald Curry in these threads. His legend has the ability to be everywhere and nowhere at once.
> 
> 400-4 and the 1980 US Boycott of the Moscow games forever looms large, in the shadows.


Yet another texan. That record is filled with a buncha San Antonio cab drivers.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> seriously, his management screw him over
> 
> Roy whooped Ray in sparring when he was younger :hey





tommygun711 said:


> Am I wrong in ranking meldrick taylor as an ATG strictly in a h2h scenario
> @bballchump11 it was in preparation for the Lalonde fight, right?


Yeah, 1988. Roy says he dominated most of it but calls it even because Leonard landed a mean hook. That's because Jones got KTFO.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Am I wrong in ranking meldrick taylor as an ATG strictly in a h2h scenario
> @bballchump11 it was in preparation for the Lalonde fight, right?


Melrdick is an atg in my eyes 
and I'm not particularly sure about the sparring. I know it was when Roy was still young, maybe amateur days and that he gave Ray a lot of trouble.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Am I wrong in ranking meldrick taylor as an ATG strictly in a h2h scenario


Not wrong more like a very big fan of Chavez


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> and I'm not particularly sure about the sparring. I know it was when Roy was still young, maybe amateur days and that he gave Ray a lot of trouble.


Rumor has it - Roy's dad got the whole thing filmed.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Rumor has it - Roy's dad got the whole thing filmed.


oh damn he needs to release that. I need to see that and Mayweather vs Pernell's sparring footage.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's because Jones got KTFO.


Nah, that was Leonard's thing.

Quincy Taylor knows.


----------



## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

IMO Norris had it all....except a chin


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Not wrong more like a very big fan of Chavez


The thing is I'm not that big of a fan of Chavez. at the very least there was ATG potential in taylor.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> The thing is I'm not that big of a fan of Chavez. at the very least there was ATG potential in taylor.


Meldrick was good/very good, his handspeed was ATG.

But too much Philly in him, lack of top-notch defense/power hurt him - and that's what made him interesting to watch.

Would pose problems for plenty of fighters at light welter.

Was far less efficient at welter, should have never moved up to light middle.


----------



## Hatesrats (Jun 6, 2013)

Terry Norris would have been in the exact same position he was in during his era in *ANY* Jr. Middleweight era.
TTN was a special talent it's a shame he didnt get to fight the top money makers of the time like ODLH & Trinidad.


----------



## Royal-T-Bag (Jun 5, 2013)

Floyd is the only one who could beat Norris and he'd lose at least 4 rounds


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

I think Norris is possibly the most underrated boxer in history. Chin aside and occasional poor decision making he had everything you could want aside from being a small 154lber.



PityTheFool said:


> Felix,that fight against Ray is about as much of a yardstick as Barrera v Khan or even Ali against Holmes.
> Ray was shot at elite level the moment the Hagler fight finished.Truth be told,by 82 his prime had reached it's closing stages.
> 
> The Leonard that beat Kalule at 154 destroys any version of Norris.


While I'd agree Leonard wins I can always see Norris giving him problems, Leonard's defense and fundamentals are going to be exposed against Norris's speed. I can see Leonard needing to come from behind to knock Norris out but I do give Norris an outside chance of picking up a decision. No disrespect to Leonard at all I just rate Norris extremely highly.

Terrible matchmaking picking Norris at 154, I suppose the options at MW at the time weren't easy but even and Toney and Julian Jackson may have suited an older rusty Leonard better because they're slower and fight at a slower pace. Especially this version of Jackson.



PityTheFool said:


> How does prime Norris do against prime McCallum( sorry.I know,I know)
> 
> @Hands of Iron?
> 
> I give you two words;Julian Fucking Jackson!


McCallum's too big for him I think, Norris could make welter imo. Maybe he'd beat Jackson in a rematch.



Luf said:


> Lara might outpoint him. So might Floyd. Everyone else would be quite an underdog.
> 
> Kirkland could spark him though.


All with about as much likelihood of Rahman sparking a Prime Lennox Lewis, it did happen and it could but 99 times out of a 100 it wouldn't.



The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I don't care, Floyd will win, I truly believe that. You're a pussy and can never make a judgement on yourself. You're an empiricism nazi.





Lester1583 said:


> Even Floyd biggest fans would agree.
> 
> @Hands of Iron
> 
> @Powerpuncher


Over the years I've been 1 of Floyd's biggest apologists picking him over many greats over the weights, to the extent I've been called all kind of names, but Norris would beat 7 shades of shit out of him.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I do think it's a bit unfair. Pryor


Couldn't get a title shot at lightweight - he weighed 135.5 a couple of weeks prior to the Arguello fight.

I always wondered why his early fights are impossible to find - turns out TV wasn't interested in Pryor, his fights weren't even televised.

Pryor was almost Gamboa/Guzman-like figure - high risk/low reward and one dumb career move after another.

Managerial problems ruined Mamby and Duran fights, he missed an opportunity to fight Leonard and even the Mancini money-fight failed to materialize (not Pryor's fault though).

It's a miracle the great Arguello pulled his ass from obscurity.



> Pryor was a lightweight when he was beaten by Howard Davis Jr. for a place on the 1976 Olympic team. Davis went on to a gold medal in Montreal and $250.500 for his debut pro fight.
> Pryor returned to Cincinatti crushed and dejected.
> At the airport there was only one friend carrying a 20-foot sign, "Welcome Home, Aaron, You're Still My Champ." Pryor cried.
> The friend's name is Ken Hawk and Pryor adopted it for his nickname: "The Hawk, because I swoop down on my opponents."


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> Lara might outpoint him. So might Floyd. Everyone else would be quite an underdog.
> 
> Kirkland could spark him though.


Lara would get his ass kicked.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Lara would get his ass kicked.


mate we're so far apart on our evaluations of Lara there's little point me replying other than out of courtesy.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Lara would get his ass kicked.


I agree, I think Terry is just far too great offensively for Lara to just throw a 1-2 and then slither away like he does alot.

No way would that work with Norris who is quick as fuck and would certainly pierce Lara's defense.

Flea, you think Norris would fuck up Floyd at 154 or nah?


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Am I wrong in ranking meldrick taylor as an ATG *strictly in a h2h scenario*


I don´t think so, IMO you are not wrong, when we talk about a h2h scenario and looking at Taylor in his best days.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Vic said:


> I don´t think so, IMO you are not wrong, when we talk about a h2h scenario and looking at Taylor in his best days.


:yep

At 135/140 he certainly could have a case for that, on his best night he would be a handful for anyone


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

Gentlemen, here you go, the official music for the video


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

fists of fury said:


> He'd be a massive threat to all.


yes he would, but Norris chin would get him rocked like he did in his prime. One impressive thing he did, I thought the most impressive fights in his career was losing to Brown and coming back and outboxing him, and coming back from the knockout loss to Jackson. Nothing deterred his career.


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Am I wrong in ranking meldrick taylor as an ATG strictly in a h2h scenario
> @bballchump11 it was in preparation for the Lalonde fight, right?


He took too many punches, even against guys like John Meekins. He was unique in that his handspeed was so dominant and it made his offense to dominant (even though he was not a hard puncher) that we didn't see what his opponent was doing. In 3 fights McGirt,Meekins and Chavez at 140, he got busted up, and it was hard to see how or when he was being hit. His defense was just not good enough for the elite guy like Aaron Pryor who would have busted up Meldrick and stopped him late. I don't see ATG in him, but I do agree he could give anyone a tough fight.


----------



## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Taylor had no business at 154.


The Norris bout was agreed at 149 though IIRC


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Chinny said:


> The Norris bout was agreed at 149 though IIRC


I think the problem with Taylor was his style fighting inside. He was fast and strong and his offense at 140 was enough and always faster than the other guy to control the guys and get them stopped or to win a decision by control or overwhelming, even with Taylor's lack of defense. but when he moved up to 147 his offense was not as dominating all the time and his opponents could step in a little more and hit him more clean, so when his opponent had some punch or speed, Meldrick's lack of defense (which did not hurt him as much with his 140 frame) meant the punches started to hurt him more and change the tenors of the fight. He had nothing to win against Norris. I always look at things with fast fighters. Take SRL against Hearns, Hearns neutralized Ray, and even Benitez neutralized Hearns. Norris vs. Taylor was a terrible style fight for Taylor. Taylor liked to fight inside, and Norris was bigger and stronger and fast, and he would hit Taylor on the outside, so Taylor had to pay the price of being hit to get inside, where he really could not get to, and probably would not have been able to win there anyway. How was he going to win? Then Taylor lost that fight to some guy in October of 1992. I am getting old. I forget the guys name, but I remember it was on the same card as Lewis/Ruddock and on Halloween. It was typical of Taylor at 147. He has a little success early, but the size and power of the other guy is too much for Taylor to overcome in his need to fight inside. Taylor's success was build on being in his opponent's range just to land his own fast punches, which no one could match. But when he was landing 2 punches or 3, his opponent landed one.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Terrible Terry would beat everybody but might have a shock KO...although there are no elite quality punchers today at 154 so maybe not. Might get DQ'd tho. Speed, skill, power coupled with great athleticism he was a dangerous combo.


kirkland is close to the power of terry






look how kirkland throws a non-chalant left to the body and then clips tough-guy vera with a right to the back of the head and vera is done for the night.

no complaining of the stoppage by vera or his corner and this after brian had just kod a prime andy lee.

james was still raw here but you can see the potential of his power


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Royal-T-Bag said:


> Floyd is the only one who could beat Norris and he'd lose at least 4 rounds


some guys could beat Terry. Terry could get in brawls too much, and be caught with big punches. His movement on his feet was not great, but his handspeed was. He tended to stand in one spot when he boxed and hop up and down on his feet, but not move laterally. Mypoint? Lara would have a chance. Canelo could do ok if he got later into the fight, but would probably take so many punches early. Martinez at 154 would have been a problem. Terry moving up to 160 with GGG? Terry's chin and style to brawl might get him knocked out.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

quincy k said:


> kirkland is close to the power of terry
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Completely forgot about Kirkland. He'd be the best puncher at 154.


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

and Kirkland might give Terry a good fight also. Terry would brawl at times because he had such fast hands he landed easily, and thought he could not be counterned. His defense was not great. Like many say about others, his defense was his offense. The Norris fight was such a bad matchup for Taylor.. Taylor had to get inside and he didn't have much power at 147. and the fight was at 149. I remember after Norris vs. Taylor, boxing people even talked about Terry fighting Chavez at 147, since Terry said he had no trouble making 149.


----------



## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

MAG1965 said:


> I think the problem with Taylor was his style fighting inside. He was fast and strong and his offense at 140 was enough and always faster than the other guy to control the guys and get them stopped or to win a decision by control or overwhelming, even with Taylor's lack of defense. but when he moved up to 147 his offense was not as dominating all the time and his opponents could step in a little more and hit him more clean, so when his opponent had some punch or speed, Meldrick's lack of defense (which did not hurt him as much with his 140 frame) meant the punches started to hurt him more and change the tenors of the fight. He had nothing to win against Norris. I always look at things with fast fighters. Take SRL against Hearns, Hearns neutralized Ray, and even Benitez neutralized Hearns. Norris vs. Taylor was a terrible style fight for Taylor. Taylor liked to fight inside, and Norris was bigger and stronger and fast, and he would hit Taylor on the outside, so Taylor had to pay the price of being hit to get inside, where he really could not get to, and probably would not have been able to win there anyway. How was he going to win? Then Taylor lost that fight to some guy in October of 1992. I am getting old. I forget the guys name, but I remember it was on the same card as Lewis/Ruddock and on Halloween. It was typical of Taylor at 147. He has a little success early, but the size and power of the other guy is too much for Taylor to overcome in his need to fight inside. Taylor's success was build on being in his opponent's range just to land his own fast punches, which no one could match. But when he was landing 2 punches or 3, his opponent landed one.


Yeah, Crisanto Espana, for the WBA 147 which wasn't on the line in the Norris bout. Notable for Taylor's very suspect leather trunks.

Great post, totally agree with your analysis of Meldricks problems above 140


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Chinny said:


> Yeah, Crisanto Espana, for the WBA 147 which wasn't on the line in the Norris bout. Notable for Taylor's very suspect leather trunks.
> 
> Great post, totally agree with your analysis of Meldricks problems above 140


Yes, thanks for telling me his name. Espana. He was the brother of Ernesto Espana of the past. Now I remember. Funny when you mention his trunks, now I remember his trunks were falling off. Halloween night right? 1992. Lennox landing that right on Ruddock. I might try and look at that now. That right was just so nice.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> Gentlemen, here you go, the official music for the video


couldnt even imagine blown-up ww cotto even lasting six rounds with prime terry. lara would be in survival mode.

i remember i first heard about norris while at sdsu where he sent four or five guys to the hospital during a softball game who were throwing down racial epithets.

norris and kirkland share the same killer instinct where they dont necessarily care about winning(santana dq, hitting ray on the way down) as more so of inflicting damage and destruction.

even if terry fought today we would never know how floyd would do against him because mayweather would never fight him

floyd wont even fight the poor mans version of terry norris in james kirkland.


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> couldnt even imagine blown-up ww cotto even lasting six rounds with prime terry. lara would be in survival mode.
> 
> i remember i first heard about norris while at sdsu where he sent four or five guys to the hospital during a softball game who were throwing down racial epithets.
> 
> ...


Terry would be trouble for the quick guys moving up like Mayweather and Pacman, but the bigger guys like Kirkland and Lara? Or Canelo? Different story. I know Floyd beat Canelo, but I think Terry has more trouble with Canelo than with Floyd-although Floyd might stop Terry. Floyd would never fight Terry. Floyd would have to avoid the fast punches of Terry and his speed for 4 or 5 rounds, and then come on and try to stop Terry, which Floyd could have. Terry is a guy I could see making Floyd brawl in a way we never thought he would since Terry would be landing. I


----------



## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

MAG1965 said:


> Yes, thanks for telling me his name. Espana. He was the brother of Ernesto Espana of the past. Now I remember. Funny when you mention his trunks, now I remember his trunks were falling off. Halloween night right? 1992. Lennox landing that right on Ruddock. I might try and look at that now. That right was just so nice.


Yes,the fight for the right, supposedly. Holy v Bowe I was two weeks later. What a time to be a boxing fan....


----------



## Hatesrats (Jun 6, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> Ever' body likes Turrable Turry


Nice reference... (Loved "The Cleveland Show".. RIP)


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Chinny said:


> Yes,the fight for the right, supposedly. Holy v Bowe I was two weeks later. What a time to be a boxing fan....


that is right. I remember that, mainly for the fact that Tommy Hearns fought on the undercard of Bowe/Holyfield against Andrew Maynard. It was sort of his comeback fight after losing to Barkley in 1992 and breaking his nose.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Bill Jincock said:


> Finish him, Terry. He's still breathing.


Norris.

The single most aesthetically pleasing effortless 154 mover since the Ugandan Demigod?

Or just a wild boy who never chose this way, wild boy who always shone?


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Norris.
> 
> The single most aesthetically pleasing effortless 154 mover since the Ugandan Demigod?
> 
> Or just a wild boy who never chose this way, wild boy who always shone?


Both lester. Both...


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Bill Jincock said:


> Anatoly "Luminary" Byshovets. I was him once in my previous life.





Powerpuncher said:


> Floyd Sr > Floyd JR. There I said it. Feel so liberated now.





LittleRed said:


> In the midnight hour I cried - "war, war, war"
> With a hagler yell I cried - "war, war, war"


Norris' boxing mode I've always liked more.

Yes, those combinations of his were excellent and dangerous but he always looked a bit open when in a full attacking mode - worked against deathly sick midgets but would be a liabilty against anyone above zombie Curry-level.

On the other hand, if you're a harmless undersized feather with a victim-mentality going up in weight to face Terry, he's a terrible guy to fight.
He just isn't going to be content with merely outboxing you, unlike some greater welters/light middles - he's gonna punish you and punish you mercilessly.

Pac and Floyd I can see them both beating Norris.

By DQ.

While twitching on the floor unconsciously.

Pac gets knock down face-first early and then gets brutalized with a 6 punch combination, as he tries to get up.

Floyd gets hit behind the head as he bends at his waist on the ropes in a futile attempt to kiss Terry's cock (old school defensive maneuver), turns his back away from Norris, screams in a Taylor Swift voice "Help!" but gets layed out cold with a humongous rabbit punch right hand as trembling Kenny Bayless watches with tears in his eyes.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Absolutely phenomenal punching exhibition. Ridiculous speed.


Leonard never got the recognition for how much power he had in his punches. Hearns said Ray hit harder than Hagler and I believe him.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Norris' boxing mode I've always liked more.
> 
> Yes, those combinations of his were excellent and dangerous but he always looked a bit open when in a full attacking mode - worked against deathly sick midgets but would be a liabilty against anyone above zombie Curry-level.


Woaaaaaaaaaaaaah there, harsh, very harsh



Lester1583 said:


> On the other hand, if you're a harmless undersized feather with a victim-mentality going up in weight to face Terry, he's a terrible guy to fight.
> He just isn't going to be content with merely outboxing you, unlike some greater welters/light middles - he's gonna punish you and punish you mercilessly.


Obviously like Floyd and Pac right...?



Lester1583 said:


> Pac and Floyd I can see them both beating Norris.


Oh no? Are you @PityTheFool



Lester1583 said:


> By DQ.
> 
> While twitching on the floor unconsciously.
> 
> Pac gets knock down face-first early and then gets brutalized with a 6 punch combination, as he tries to get up.


OK maybe not, but PTF have some sympathy for Terry getting cuckolded man.

It would be embarrassing if Pac landed a lucky punch on overly confident Terry to be fair, that would irritate me.



Lester1583 said:


> Floyd gets hit behind the head as he bends at his waist on the ropes in a futile attempt to kiss Terry's cock (old school defensive maneuver), turns his back away from Norris, screams in a Taylor Swift voice "Help!" but gets layed out cold with a humongous rabbit punch right hand as trembling Kenny Bayless watches with tears in his eyes.


Why no one bar the genius Maidana throws overhand rights in close as Floyd presents the side/back of his head as he turns around I'll never know. Except I do, they only know to throw basic set punches.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

@Powerpuncher

That man broke my boxing heart so much as a pup that I've never been able to fully appreciate him.

But I have watched several fights just for the sake of gaining knowledge and it should tell you enough when I say I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

If you haven't,you should try and find Thomas Hauser's thoughts on that fight.
Let's just say I'm confident I felt worse than him.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Mr. Brain said:


> Leonard never got the recognition for how much power he had in his punches. Hearns said Ray hit harder than Hagler and I believe him.


That brilliant thread that @Kid Generic Alias put up has some excellent footage of Ray bemoaning the lack of respect for his power.

As Dave Boy Green said some 20 years after they fought regarding Leonard's finishing hook;"One of these days I'm
Gonna get up from it"


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Norris' boxing mode I've always liked more.
> 
> Yes, those combinations of his were excellent and dangerous but he always looked a bit open when in a full attacking mode - worked against deathly sick midgets but would be a liabilty against anyone above zombie Curry-level.
> 
> ...


Turrible Terry had a way of way of really letting you down if you were a fan of his. The santana fights remain both inexplicable and comedic- like watching a dog chase it's tail, catch the tail then bite it


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Why no one bar the genius Maidana throws overhand rights in close as Floyd presents the side/back of his head as he turns around I'll never know. Except I do, they only know to throw basic set punches.


The art of a sloppy looping right hand/almost always a rabbit punch is lost in this modern world of cookie-cutter slicksters.

Riddick Bowe doesn't want to tweet on this planet anymore.



Powerpuncher said:


> Woaaaaaaaaaaaaah there, harsh, very harsh


Terry would understand.

Or maybe not.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)




----------



## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> Turrible Terry had a way of way of really letting you down if you were a fan of his. The santana fights remain both inexplicable and comedic- like watching a dog chase it's tail, catch the tail then bite it


Superb post :deal


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> a lucky punch on overly confident Terry to be fair, that would irritate me.


Do you remember the Mullings fight, PP?

Norris was only 30.

Really reminds me of the post-Ruiz Jones - upper body is still relatively good, still fast with his hands but legs are totally gone - not gone like old Floyd/Hop-gone but like he can't even control them anymore/they don't respond to his brain's commands.

And suddenly he's a helpless shot fighter.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Do you remember the Mullings fight, PP?
> 
> Norris was only 30.
> 
> ...


His defense wasn't as good as it could be and he seemed to make more mistakes. With Norris he could be punch perfect if he thought there was a serious threat but if he didn't think an opponent was going to be on his level he was sloppy. The difference between the 2 Brown fights are night and day. Whether that was a lack of training or just being careless I'm unsure. Lennox Lewis Syndrome? Although some will just question his ability to overcome adversity.

Norris said something like when your head's not in boxing you aren't the same and you should quit. Now I maybe using allot of paraphrasing licence by attributing those late losses to him no longer being up for the fight as much but I think there's something in it.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Carl Daniels was a capable contender for a completely forgotten fighter.

Was fighting on even terms in the early rounds with Norris until Terrible Terry gradually broke him down and stopped him.

And then was outboxing JC Vasquez until Vasquez caught him with a huge KO punch.

Hopkins was happy to defend his title against a 137 years old marasmatic Daniels years later, of course.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> When I see Terry moving
> I go out of my head
> And I just can't get enough
> And I just can't get enough


Terry and his second biggest fan:









Too bad Don King protected his cash-cows so fervently.

But then again, he saw what happened to a prime Leonard.

Humiliated and forgotten.


----------



## Wansen (Jun 4, 2013)

Norris was an absolute beast in the gym and he possessed super-human endurance.

I watched him spar the better part of an hour on a hot summer day with rotating partners (he was already sparring when I got to the gym) 
then spend about 20 minutes doing sit-ups. 

He was still training as I was leaving the gym.

At his best, he was a threat to (most) anyone at '54.


----------



## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

Wansen said:


> Norris was an absolute beast in the gym and he possessed super-human endurance.
> 
> I watched him spar the better part of an hour on a hot summer day with rotating partners (he was already sparring when I got to the gym)
> then spend about 20 minutes doing sit-ups.
> ...


What an interesting post. More details please!


----------



## Wansen (Jun 4, 2013)

Chinny said:


> What an interesting post. More details please!


It was at Tocco's in Vegas way back 1988 or '89. Tocco's was so old Sonny Liston trained there; I hear it's been remodeled but
when I was there I swear it had never been cleaned since Liston's days. It was gritty, hot and dirty the late Johnny Tocco was right out of
"Central Casting" - the picture of an (very) Old School fight guy.

Norris trained like no other. No one else could use the ring because he wouldn't stop sparring.

Even Abel Sanchez (Norris' trainer) didn't stick around for Terry's entire session; he left with me and we went to eat.

I lost a fair amount of cash when Julian Jackson starched him.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Terry and his second biggest fan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice pic, what year was this?


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Nice pic, what year was this?


1993


----------



## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

Wansen said:


> It was at Tocco's in Vegas way back 1988 or '89. Tocco's was so old Sonny Liston trained there; I hear it's been remodeled but
> when I was there I swear it had never been cleaned since Liston's days. It was gritty, hot and dirty the late Johnny Tocco was right out of
> "Central Casting" - the picture of an (very) Old School fight guy.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply. Very interesting.

I was in Vegas in May this year and a friend of mine who is an active British fighter trained and sparred at Tocco's gym with some tough Mexican kids. Like you say it has been remodelled but he says it was still a gym of pure heat and sweat.

Would love to hear more stories of Norris if you have any. Thanks again.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

> Iâ€™m a really calm person; Iâ€™m never mean.













> If you are not on your back, then I would still keep fighting. I have never been able to pull back. Even still today, if you are not laying flat on your back then Iâ€™m going to keep coming after you.


----------



## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Would lose via split decision to Canelo: 114-113, 113-114, 120-108.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Norris.
> The single most aesthetically pleasing effortless 154 mover since the Ugandan Demigod?
> Or just a wild boy who never chose this way, wild boy who always shone?


Terry's balance doe.


----------



## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

His beard is the only thing that makes me lack confidence in him


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> I could see Cotto giving him a really good fight, Great Clash of Styles


I think Norris knocks out Cotto in about 4 or 5 but gets stopped by Canelo.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> I think Norris knocks out Cotto in about 4 or 5 but gets stopped by Canelo.


Norris to fleet footed for Red head


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> Norris to fleet footed for Red head


I don't think so. His boxing was not that great. He boxed up and down but not well laterally, guys he beat were with his handspeed like Simon Brown, but Canelo? I don't think he can keep Canelo off him for that long, and his punching power was good, but not great which is what is needed vs. Canelo.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

up late and decided to youtube his name, found this, fairly new


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Paul Vaden's poetry:
> 
> Norris wants Vaden? I accept this dare
> Gonzalez, Santana, etc. it won't compare
> ...


Usually don't like to watch effors by shot fighters.
They are useless - don't tell you nothing new about a fighter.

But Curry-Norris is one of those fights that deserve attention.

Wouldn't say Curry was shot - we've all seen worse - more like very, very faded.
No legs at all, no defensive reflexes, no punching power.

Handspeed and technique were the only weapons in Curry's arsenal in that fight.
And he was facing prime Terry Norris.

2 things that stood out about Curry's performance.

His heart.
He actually gave his all.
Fought like a real champion and tried his best.
Compare it to the borderline no-mas moment of the Ragamaffin fight.

His skills.
As diminished as he was, Curry was still able to make it competitive.
Was catching Norris with counters, was tagging Norris with occasional right hands - mostly cuz of Curry's immaculate textbookness and impeccable straight punching.
Making Norris' slapping right hands look almost bowe-esque in comparison.
And Curry's often overlooked inside fighting gave Norris problems too.

Alas, Curry's power was no longer there, so Norris was never in real danger.

What's even more interesting is that aside from the stoppage Curry performed better than Leonard who got completely schooled and dominated.

Maybe it was cuz Norris respected Leonard more and never deviated from boxing mode, while he gave Curry plenty of chances cuz he was trying to walk him down.

Or.

Maybe there was a reason behind Leonard derailing Curry's far superior career?

I think we all know the answer.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> I don't think so. His boxing was not that great. He boxed up and down but not well laterally, guys he beat were with his handspeed like Simon Brown, but Canelo? I don't think he can keep Canelo off him for that long, and his punching power was good, but not great which is what is needed vs. Canelo.


Bizarre. I can't see Canelo stopping Norris. Canelo doesn't have that concussive power to hurt him. Norris would box circles around him.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Almost happened twice:


----------



## Sweet Pea (Jun 22, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Bizarre. I can't see Canelo stopping Norris. Canelo doesn't have that concussive power to hurt him. Norris would box circles around him.


My imaginary baby sister has enough concussive force to hurt Norris if she lands clean.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Sweet Pea said:


> My imaginary baby sister has enough concussive force to hurt Norris if she lands clean.


Your imaginary baby sister is a transgender man named Julian.

My imaginary baby Norris would KO your sister in 2 rounds.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Sweet Pea said:


> My imaginary baby sister has enough concussive force to hurt Norris if she lands clean.


Canelo wouldn't ko norris m8


----------



## Azadi (Jan 28, 2014)

Norris would beat everybody including floyd that fought De la hoya.


----------



## Azadi (Jan 28, 2014)

MAG1965 said:


> and Kirkland might give Terry a good fight also. Terry would brawl at times because he had such fast hands he landed easily, and thought he could not be counterned. His defense was not great. Like many say about others, his defense was his offense. The Norris fight was such a bad matchup for Taylor.. Taylor had to get inside and he didn't have much power at 147. and the fight was at 149. I remember after Norris vs. Taylor, boxing people even talked about Terry fighting Chavez at 147, since Terry said he had no trouble making 149.


norris beat fighters who were better then kirkland, kirkland is nothing, you think kirkland holds more power in his shots then john mugabi, leonnard, curry, brown, blocker


----------



## Sweet Pea (Jun 22, 2013)

Azadi said:


> norris beat fighters who were better then kirkland, kirkland is nothing, you think kirkland holds more power in his shots then john mugabi, leonnard, curry, brown, blocker


Every fighter you just mentioned was a washed up Welterweight. Except Mugabi. He was just washed up.

Norris would be crucified by boxing fans if he fought today.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Sweet Pea said:


> Norris would be crucified by boxing fans if he fought today.


Norris beat a prime Locomotora.
For this alone he'd be considered a living legend today.

Don't ever forget about that.

Ever.


----------



## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Your imaginary baby sister is a transgender man named Julian.
> 
> My imaginary baby Norris would KO your sister in 2 rounds.


:rofl


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Bizarre. I can't see Canelo stopping Norris. Canelo doesn't have that concussive power to hurt him. Norris would box circles around him.


didn't take much to hurt Terry. Simon Brown's jab knocked him down.


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Bizarre. I can't see Canelo stopping Norris. Canelo doesn't have that concussive power to hurt him. Norris would box circles around him.


Terry was knocked down by Simon Browns' jab


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> With Norris he could be punch perfect if he thought there was a serious threat but if he didn't think an opponent was going to be on his level he was sloppy. The difference between the 2 Brown fights are night and day. Whether that was a lack of training or just being careless I'm unsure. Lennox Lewis Syndrome? Although some will just question his ability to overcome adversity.
> 
> Norris said something like when your head's not in boxing you aren't the same and you should quit.


Norris did have a shaky chin but it looked flat-out atrocious in the first Brown fight - he never looked that vulnurable before or after.
He took the same punches from Brown in the rematch without much problem.

Ability to take a punch cannot be judged without context, so to speak.

Sure, some fighters are granite, some are glass, but it's not that simple.

Preparation, mental and physical, will power, focus - they all mean a lot.

It's also funny to read stuff like "Fury got knocked down by a cruiser! One jab from Wolodya and he leaves the ring on a stretcher! Book it!"
Or "Mathysse took a clean punch from Judah! He's unknockoutable!"

Great analysis.


----------



## Sweet Pea (Jun 22, 2013)

Norris' chin was pure china.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Sweet Pea said:


> Norris' chin was pure china.


I prefer to use the word "curiouslymysterious".


----------

