# How would Duran do at 154/160 today?



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Obviously he'd go through lightweight and welterweight easily, but how would he do against today's light-middle and middleweight crop? My mate asked me this as a bit of a joke and it got me thinking, what do you all think?


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Obviously he'd go through lightweight and welterweight easily, but how would he do against today's light-middle and middleweight crop? My mate asked me this as a bit of a joke and it got me thinking, what do you all think?


I can't think of one that will trouble him. None are talented or skilled enough to beat him. GGG might get lucky but other than that... No


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## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

He will outhustle Canelo for 12 rounds. He will take his soul from the pre fight staredown alone.

Lara would probably break his personal best in 100m dash against Duran. Although he has the best chance of winning if he emulates how Benitez outpointed Duran.

I think GGG will have to use movement and try to fight smart against Duran. It's never wise to use a no-pull counter against him.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Here's a Roberto Duran several years off his best at a far less effective weight where before you've even seen him fight cuts a relatively unimpressive figure: Then you do and it's revealed he has unequivocally diminished attributes, ability, will to fight, and even worse, lesser motivated training habits than before when he had the surprisingly fast hands, cat-like reflexes, greater agility and fluidity in his defensive upperbody movement, fresher wheels, higher level of stamina, a more consistent work rate and if not more power relative to the divisions then certainly a higher capacity to get his shots off and find the target. The multitude of angles Duran was able to attack, slip, roll, duck and counter effectively from just isn't even comparable. Not even when watching him take apart a Cuevas or Moore. It's a wicked reality of what were looking at here as compared to a 135-147 Duran who'd put everything together circa mid-70s and culminating in his historic triumph over a primed, undefeated Ray Leonard.

Still, he went in with the highly capable, highly conditioned ambidextrous Top 5 ATG Middleweight who was right in the thick of a seven-year, 12-defense reign at the top and basically operating right near the height of his powers. What happens? He doesn't just last the distance with him - something every other Hagler title challenger aside from Ray Leonard failed to do - he fights competitively, he wins rounds, and at times makes him look tentative, ordinary, even puzzled by not fighting in the manner that on paper should've afforded a natural counterpuncher like Hagler the chance to look dominant and impressive in what up to that point was considered the biggest fight of his career. Or maybe Hagler's just shit @dyna.

So yeah, this Supreme EVT proves his level of skill and craftiness was on a level not seen by anyone today competing in this weight range.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@The Monk


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Mayweather beats him at 154 :deal


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Mayweather beats him at 154 :deal


Yea


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## wow_junky (Jun 21, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Mayweather beats him at 154 :deal


Mayweather? That chap who isn't active today because he's retired?


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

He'd beat most who will fight inside within him or don't have the defense to fend him off. Still GGG maybe a ship too far, but the version who fought Hagler would run him close. He'd batter Cotto and have a close fight with Alvarez maybe winning that one. Someone who gets on the backfoot and dances the night away will still nick a decision against him. So Lara and Trout could mug him. Crawford stylistically could be all wrong for him too


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hagler's just shit


Menstrual girl's mentality.

The black Oscar.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Mayweather beats him at 154 :deal


Bomber Graham would throw them both out of the ring.
@Powerpuncher


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

sugarshane_24 said:


> He will outhustle Canelo for 12 rounds. He will take his soul from the pre fight staredown alone.
> 
> Lara would probably break his personal best in 100m dash against Duran. Although he has the best chance of winning if he emulates how Benitez outpointed Duran.
> 
> I think GGG will have to use movement and try to fight smart against Duran. It's never wise to use a no-pull counter against him.


I can't imagine Lara winning, he is too one-paced, and finds a way to lose fights he has advantages in, he's no Benítez


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Nobody from 154/160 beats Tokyo Duran


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

wow_junky said:


> Mayweather? That chap who isn't active today because he's retired?


I was just looking for his toughest fights and Mayweather is the only one I clearly see beating him. The Duran who fought Hagler should do pretty well vs GGG. I'd still pick GGG to win because of Duran's inconsistency.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Eoghan said:


> Lara's no Benítez


They are simply different fighters.

It's not the legs that beat Duran, it's Benitez's upper body.

Benitez beat Duran at his own game.
More or less.

That's what was so impressive about that win.

No wonder Duran ducked him for years, @Hands of Iron

When Benitez used his legs and boxed more conventionally he was equally as great.
Maybe even better.

But like many defensive specialists he loved his defense too much/didn't give a fuck.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> I was just looking for his toughest fights and Mayweather is the only one I clearly see beating him. The Duran who fought Hagler should do pretty well vs GGG. I'd still pick GGG to win because of Duran's inconsistency.


Personally I see that as a horrible fight for Floyd, he buys feints and Duran will sell them to him all night long.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

JamieC said:


> Personally I see that as a horrible fight for Floyd, he buys feints and Duran will sell them to him all night long.


It is a stylistically awful fight for Floyd, and it's why I pick Duran to win at 135-147. At 154 Duran lost to 2 defensive fighters and lost to Leonard even at 147 when he decided to fight negatively. Due to Floyd's consistency and focus, I think he'd beat Duran more times than not.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> It is a stylistically awful fight for Floyd, and it's why I pick Duran to win at 135-147. At 154 Duran lost to 2 defensive fighters and lost to Leonard even at 147 when he decided to fight negatively. Due to Floyd's consistency and focus, I think he'd beat Duran more times than not.


Oh right I get you. I think it's hard to get a grip on Duran above 147 as he could be great or less than on any given night and I suppose Floyd is arguably the most consistent boxer of all time.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Wouldn't bet on that cake eater. @Hands of Iron


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

In these hypotheticals you have to assume the best version of Duran. Duran at 160 was ahead on points against Hagler after 12 rounds. I see no reason why he couldn't do that to GGG. Of course GGG could stop him, but he took massive shots from Barkley which tells you when he is conditioned right at 160 he can take those bombs. I think he can beat anyone at 154 or 160 today. He would beat all of the 154 group with moderate ease and Ithink he can beat everyone at 160 too.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Good thread btw


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Good thread btw


Word.

@Eoghan trying to take the WBF off life support. The only way it happens IMO is if the Historical element is able to be meshed in various ways. That section itself has never breathed air since 2012.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Wouldn't bet on that cake eater. @Hands of Iron


What if anything does this say about Duran and Hagler's respective levels in terms of P4P skills, peak-for-peak? I've never been able to help but think it clearly puts Roberto on another tier. Some could probably come to that conclusion anyway had they never even fought, but it's particularly damning when a guy that's past his best and 25 lbs north of his peak form is able to hang so well with a Top 5 Great who's practically dab middle of his prime in his natural division. This wasn't Monzon-Napoles by any means, Roberto was a rotund boy in there -- but his abilities, particularly physical attributes as noted, were very much diminished.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> They are simply different fighters.
> 
> It's not the legs that beat Duran, it's Benitez's upper body.
> 
> ...


Should've fought Antonio @Bogotazo Cervantes. Don't send little Duh Hey Zeus in to do your dirty work. Carlos Eleta was seen running for the exits after attending that fight.

_"When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.

"The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that" -- Jack Fiske_

Leonica. Fiske died a horrible death, and it was warranted. The best fighter Duran met in the 1970s was Ernesto Marcel. I know he's referring specifically to 135 and Nato was still learning his craft (so was Duran) but still. It's close with Buchanan for me and perhaps I'm being swept away by the visual aesthetics and right hand leads.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Should've fought Antonio @Bogotazo Cervantes. Don't send little Duh Hey Zeus in to do your dirty work. Carlos Eleta was seen running for the exits after attending that fight.
> 
> _"When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.
> 
> ...


Mmmm I should rewatch the Marcel fight.

BTW, mom casually revealed to me the other day that she saw Cervantes live. She was like "I can't remember who...some Argentine..." I was like "NICOLINO LOCCHE?!" and she was like "yeah!" & I died. But we later figured out it had to be Benny Huertas. Battered him.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> What if anything does this say about Duran and Hagler's respective levels in terms of P4P skills, peak-for-peak? I've never been able to help but think it clearly puts Roberto on another tier. Some could probably come to that conclusion anyway had they never even fought, but it's particularly damning when a guy that's past his best and 25 lbs north of his peak form is able to hang so well with a Top 5 Great who's practically dab middle of his prime in his natural division. This wasn't Monzon-Napoles by any means, Roberto was a rotund boy in there -- but his abilities, particularly physical attributes as noted, were very much diminished.


Now imagine if Hagler had fought a true middleweight at the level of Tiberi

:grin


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Duran beats the dog shit out of Cotto, Canelo and Lara(most overrated fighter last 20 years) and would decision Golovkin


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Should've fought Antonio @Bogotazo Cervantes. Don't send little Duh Hey Zeus in to do your dirty work. Carlos Eleta was seen running for the exits after attending that fight.
> 
> _"When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.
> 
> ...


Duran's resume for a top 3 lightweight is pretty damn dire.
If it's just about names at lightweight he doesn't even fit in the top 5.

It's like Mosley's run at lightweight (little hyperbole).
Both have weak resumes for where they are often rated.
Mosley has like I guess a top 50 (at best) resume and often gets ranked near the top 10.
Duran is de facto top 3 but his resume is closer to lower top 10.

Edit: not saying that Duran doesn't belong in the top 3.
His dominance makes that spot well earned.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Mmmm I should rewatch the Marcel fight.


It sort of took place inbetween at 130: Roberto was still growing into lightweight while Marcel was a couple lbs north of his division. Duran beat him, but the stoppage was honestly horseshit. See Moar Marcel, period. I think @Chacal would really dig him too, if he hasn't already delved into what's available. Flea has/had several good quality uploads on his YT channel. An amazingly astute technical fighter and one of the most talented Featherweights of all-time: beautiful right hand leads, head feints, great lateral movement, good output, very slick moving in-and-out of range. This is sexy.

Suffered two meaningless defeats early on when he was still learning on the job, one of which he avenged twice including a KO win. He earned a robbery draw in his first title shot against lineal 126 champ Kuniaki Shibata - a fighter that haunts @Zopilote thoughts - on the road and made WBA titlist Antonio Gomez (who has wins over Cervantes and DeJesus) look like nothing in his second. "MD" -- It wasn't remotely competitive. Lost a Venezuelan decision to Leonel Hernandez in a non-title fight . Only fighter to stop Spider Nemoto, beat future champion Samuel Serrano. Capped his career with a thoroughly convincing (IMO) win over 15 rounds against none other than Alexis Arguello, who was about to begin a near virtual dust up of 126-135 and had already KO'ed Jose Legra in 1. There's your Best Single Win, and he retired on it.



Bogotazo said:


> BTW, mom casually revealed to me the other day that she saw Cervantes live. She was like "I can't remember who...some Argentine..." I was like "NICOLINO LOCCHE?!" and she was like "yeah!" & I died. But we later figured out it had to be Benny Huertas. Battered him.


:lol:

God Dammit.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Duran:

Top 3 lightweight
Beat top 2 welterweight
Came close beating a top 5 middleweight

Truly phenomenal career


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Duran's resume for a top 3 lightweight is pretty damn dire.
> If it's just about names at lightweight he doesn't even fit in the top 5.
> 
> It's like Mosley's run at lightweight (little hyperbole).
> ...


A lot of hyperbole, Dyna. :lol:

Buchanan and DeJesus (x2) alone should relieve Duran from ever being compared to Shane Mosley at 135 where resume is concerned. I understand what you're saying though.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Buchanan was a fine fine fighter.

That alone makes Duran's lightweight resume "not dire"


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Buchanan was a fine fine fighter.
> 
> That alone makes Duran's lightweight resume "not dire"


Buchanan and DeJesus were excellent, Lampkin, Fernandez and Viruet were good; the rest range from mediocre to downright terrible.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Buchanan was a fine fine fighter.
> 
> That alone makes Duran's lightweight resume "not dire"


Not dire.
But Gans and Leonard their resumes are just another class.

For where Duran is ranked his resume is by far the weakest of the big 3 lightweights.

It's all relative.
.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Buchanan and DeJesus were excellent, Lampkin, Fernandez and Viruet were good; the rest range from mediocre to downright terrible.


Viruet is one of the finest boxer movers ever with never mentioned inside skills.

His draw with Mamby was a cool fight.
On paper it looks it would have been like a hypothetical Lara-Dirrell snoozefest but it was closer to a war.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Viruet is one of the finest boxer movers ever with never mentioned inside skills.
> 
> His draw with Mamby was a cool fight.
> On paper it looks it would have been like a hypothetical Lara-Dirrell snoozefest but it was closer to a war.


I need to see that. I'm also surprised Mr. Fiske listed Vilomar Fernandez alongside guys like Lou Bizarro and Leoncio Ortiz when rattling off Duran's apparent garbage lightweight title defenses. I wanted him murdered, but that isn't the point.


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## Twelvey (Jun 6, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Personally I see that as a horrible fight for Floyd, he buys feints and Duran will sell them to him all night long.


Yep, I feel the Floyd of the Oscar fight would be better suited to a stick and move plan against Duran, older Floyd wouldn't be as effective at that and would struggle against the ropes against such a varied attack. It's between him and golovkin who I'd give the best chance of winning. Eubank Jnr versus Duran would be savage and entertaining education.


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## Twelvey (Jun 6, 2012)

He'd show Nelo what a real Latin inside slickster looks like. Cotto would be put in a dress and hurt.


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## Sebastien Loeb (Apr 15, 2016)

Chacal said:


> In these hypotheticals you have to assume the best version of Duran. Duran at 160 was ahead on points against Hagler after 12 rounds.


You beat me to it..

This guys prime weight was LW!! Incredible! However resume aside Golovkin has the talent & power to shut him down. Hard fight tho of course..

Speculative, hypothetical, time machine match ups make me laugh tho. People trying to act like the fights actually happened & Duran took there heads off LOL Dreamers..

It's Golovkins time now.


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## 941jeremy (Jun 12, 2013)

How would he do vs a middleweight version of Chavez Jr? I do realize that he isn't very skilled but could he handle a guy that would come in 20 lbs heavier on fight night?


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

941jeremy said:


> How would he do vs a middleweight version of Chavez Jr? I do realize that he isn't very skilled but could he handle a guy that would come in 20 lbs heavier on fight night?


Basically Barkley-Duran 2 but this time a worse Barkley so a clearer win for Duran


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Basically Barkley-Duran 2 but this time a worse Barkley so a clearer win for Duran


I loved that fight. So much skilled on display. Duran was so small and out of shape for that weight. He had to rely strictly on his ring IQ on the outside and inside.

I've made points in the past that SRR blows me away from a physical stand point. A 5'11 welterweight with light feet, fast hands, atg power and monster chin. But there are fighters who looked more skilled than he is. Duran is one of them


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

941jeremy said:


> How would he do vs a middleweight version of Chavez Jr? I do realize that he isn't very skilled but could he handle a guy that would come in 20 lbs heavier on fight night?


Iran Barkley was probably about that, and a much better fighter.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Duran is getting a little overrated here although I've backed him already in the thread. He's a fighter who looks TBE in certain conditions. 5 months after he's battered a Ray Leonard who went toe to toe with him he gets clowned by Leonard, then Benitez, then Laing. He then fights 2 top B Level guys in Cuevas and Moore who stand in front of him and brutalises them. He then takes on a cautious tentative Hagler and gives him a close fight that he never looked like winning. Then Hearns decapitates him in quick time. Then he drifts into the wilderness and then fights another unskilled defensively weak brawler/strong man in Barkley past his own prime and wins going life and death with him. Barkley holds a strap but in reality isn't top 5 in a very strong division.

He's an ATG but there's clear weaknesses against certain styles and he isn't truely elite above 147 if not above 135.


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Powerpuncher said:


> Duran is getting a little overrated here although I've backed him already in the thread. He's a fighter who looks TBE in certain conditions. 5 months after he's battered a Ray Leonard who went toe to toe with him he gets clowned by Leonard, then Benitez, then Laing. He then fights 2 top B Level guys in Cuevas and Moore who stand in front of him and brutalises them. He then takes on a cautious tentative Hagler and gives him a close fight that he never looked like winning. Then Hearns decapitates him in quick time. Then he drifts into the wilderness and then fights another unskilled defensively weak brawler/strong man in Barkley past his own prime and wins going life and death with him. Barkley holds a strap but in reality isn't top 5 in a very strong division.
> 
> He's an ATG but there's clear weaknesses against certain styles and he isn't truely elite above 147 if not above 135.


Durans main weaknesses were between fights.
It was clearly obvious he wasn't as sharp in certain fights as he was in Montreal. A prime dedicated Duran beats Leonard every time. He also beats Benitez which wasn't as easy for Benitez as some make out. Hearns and Hagler were always going to be to much for him though.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

The Monk said:


> Durans main weaknesses were between fights.
> It was clearly obvious he wasn't as sharp in certain fights as he was in Montreal. A prime dedicated Duran beats Leonard every time. He also beats Benitez which wasn't as easy for Benitez as some make out. Hearns and Hagler were always going to be to much for him though.


This is a myth, when Leonard gives Duran lateral movement Duran can't get near him and Leonard controls the ring. When Leonard fights flatfooted and looks to engage Duran like he did he in the first fight then Duran batters him.

All these out of shape excuses by Duran fans coincidentally always happen before he fights someone who gives him fast lateral movement and defense. Being out of shape doesn't affects your lack of speed from the first bell.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

I don't really buy the whole 'Leonard deliberately fought Duran's fight' line, I don't see why he would keep on with a tactic that wasn't working. Also, we see with top-level athletes all the time, whenever they lose, they often come up with some excuse, they can't admit that they were just not as good on the day


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Powerpuncher said:


> This is a myth, when Leonard gives Duran lateral movement Duran can't get near him and Leonard controls the ring. When Leonard fights flatfooted and looks to engage Duran like he did he in the first fight then Duran batters him.
> 
> All these out of shape excuses by Duran fans coincidentally always happen before he fights someone who gives him fast lateral movement and defense. Being out of shape doesn't affects your lack of speed from the first bell.


I believe what your saying is a myth. Duran forced Leonard to fight his fight. Leonard couldn't use lateral movement effectively because Duran didn't let him. The same would have happened in the second fight if Duran showed up with the same intensity he did in Montreal.

The fact Leonard admits Duran wasn't as sharp and didn't punch as hard the second time around proves my point.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I think it was a mix of both. Leonard didn't fight Duran any differently than he does anybody else. He's usually somewhat flatfooted and offensive minded. He can be fleet footed when he chooses like early vs Hearns, Hagler, Duran II, etc.

When I watched the first fight between Leonard and Duran, I tried to observed how much was Leonard choosing to stand and fight and how much was it Duran forcing it. Leonard definitely chose to do that at times, but there were plenty of times when he tried escape and use his legs, but Duran forced him to fight. Examples being that famous pull counter that Duran landed on Leonard that made him retreat to the ropes. Then Leonard was trapped there. Another cause was Duran's feints making Leonard hesitant and backing him up. I specifically remember Duran feinting 2 jabs and then a faster right cross feinted that made Leonard jump back, and Duran then swarmed in to push him on the ropes.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> This is a myth, when Leonard gives Duran lateral movement Duran can't get near him and Leonard controls the ring. When Leonard fights flatfooted and looks to engage Duran like he did he in the first fight then Duran batters him.
> 
> All these out of shape excuses by Duran fans coincidentally always happen before he fights someone who gives him fast lateral movement and defense. Being out of shape doesn't affects your lack of speed from the first bell.


You badly need an avatar, dude.










Rossco's my boy, but I think to say Duran beats him every time out is to severely undermine the attributes, skills and versatility that Ray Leonard actually possessed -- and in doing so, inadvertently undermine the significance of one boxing's most monumental single achievements. I don't think there's another former Lightweight champion in history that takes SRL. Not a single damn one. You could probably even change that to "former lightweight" period but SRR was in the division for a brief period of time. So this is a pretty big deal. It'd of been a big deal even if Duran was a natural welterweight. Leonard is indisputably great in terms of both ability and record.

It's somewhat hard for me to believe SRL didn't very consciously know what he was doing in Montreal (against better judgment), at least from the outset, but the counterpoints are equally strong. For his part, Roberto actually had tremendously underrated speed of foot at 147 and below; he closed distance and cut the ring in very unorthodox ways. It was certainly unlike a less athletically gifted textbook pressure fighter like JCC with his mirroring and side-steps, done more through a combination of an array of feints, quick forward advances and lead right hands. He ultimately beat the shit out of movers like Fernandez (who actually outpointed Arguello, albeit over 10 rounds) and shit-can pure runners like Bizarro -- but they were laborious affairs at best to watch.


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Hands of Iron said:


> You badly need an avatar, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was a bit ignorant there mate. To correct my point- No way Leonard is able to do what he did in the second fight to Montreal Duran. It's always a close fight who ever wins.

I believe Leonards team did go in with a better hit and move tactic the second fight. They knew they were getting a struggling to make weight, less motivated Duran. Even out of shape Duran was still great on the inside because he was so clever there so it would've been crazy for Leonard to go toe to toe even with that version of Duran. To chase down a brilliant athletic mover like Leonard would always require Duran to be 100%, any less than that and he's losing. The same with Benitez.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Duran beats the dog shit out of Cotto, Canelo and Lara(most overrated fighter last 20 years) and would decision Golovkin


:rofl :rofl I agree with Lara being overrated, there was a time when people were seriously contemplating him against Hearns at 154, it made @JMP quit boxing forums. That comes off particularly harsh though... Wait, no it doesn't.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl :rofl I agree with Lara being overrated, there was a time when people were seriously contemplating him against Hearns at 154, it made @JMP quit boxing forums. That comes off particularly harsh though... Wait, no it doesn't.


I mean Lara did knock out his son in 1 round. So I can't imagine the father doing much better


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The Monk said:


> I was a bit ignorant there mate. To correct my point- No way Leonard is able to do what he did in the second fight to Montreal Duran. It's always a close fight who ever wins.
> 
> I believe Leonards team did go in with a hit and move tactic. This is because they knew they were getting a struggling to make weight, less motivated Duran. Even out of shape Duran was still great on the inside because he was so clever there so it would've been crazy for Leonard to go toe to toe even with that version of Duran. To chase down a brilliant athletic mover like Leonard would always require Duran to be 100%, any less than that and he's losing. The same with Benitez.


That comes off vastly different. :thumbsup The second fight actually wasn't a landslide up to the No Mas moment, interestingly. Roberto was still in the fight and SRL didn't get overtly mobile until the last couple of rounds. He just couldn't be assed, I guess. It'll always be puzzling.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Also say that Leonard was more pure boxer-puncher in most circumstances than a mover. That was a tactic he had the ring awareness and athletic ability to utilize when necessary. He planted often and could put the beat down on opponents at times. Underrated pop.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> I loved that fight. So much skilled on display. Duran was so small and out of shape for that weight. He had to rely strictly on his ring IQ on the outside and inside.
> 
> I've made points in the past that SRR blows me away from a physical stand point. A 5'11 welterweight with light feet, fast hands, atg power and monster chin. But there are fighters who looked more skilled than he is. Duran is one of them


Some bad fuckin posts from you on this page, man. And by bad, I mean great. One of my fave skill showcases from him was when he was peaked out in the third DeJesus fight and decided to sit back and play counter-puncher most of the night. The second one is masterful in it's own right (and Esteban was bit fresher) but the third was on some freak shit - you see him simultaneously moving backwards, slipping everything DeJesus throws and smashing him with counters to the body and head at the same time. :lol: It's so obscenely good, he was exceptionally slippery defensively and still nearly always in position to land in conjunction. It's exactly what @Bogotazo bangs on about when he says a seamless blend of offense and defense. He was a whirlwind of skill.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Imagine Licoriced Montreal Duran, a bottle of laxatives and Chong-Pal Park at a 164 catchweight.
Now that would be a shit fight. Literally.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl :rofl I agree with Lara being overrated, there was a time when people were seriously contemplating him against Hearns at 154, it made @JMP quit boxing forums. That comes off particularly harsh though... Wait, no it doesn't.


That seriously happened?
Hearns vs Lara threads


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> That seriously happened?
> Hearns vs Lara threads


I swear it took place. I could even name a couple of names but I assume they greatly regret it and won't do anything of the sort again.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@Pedderrs loves Duran. Surprised he hasn't shown.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Pedderrs loves Duran. Surprised he hasn't shown.


I don't mind Dooran. He was a decent fighter. Thing is though, I'm far too intelligent a boxing fan to buy into any of the ridiculous and baseless excuses that have been circulating boxing forums since the internet's inception. He lost to Ray Leonard in New Orleans not because he horribly mistimed a poo, but because Ray Leonard employed more movement and frustrated Dooran into quitting. Such was the performance of Dooran in the return bout that I'm inclined to believe that Ray would always, always win a fight between the two if he decided to employ these tactics. Ray adjusted and won the fight. No more, no less. I also think it's hard on Benitez and Hearns to use the other common excuses where Duran is concerned - that he hadn't trained properly and was out of shape. Benitez stood in the pocket and boxed Dooran's head off for 15 rounds despite Duran looking in great shape and going the distance with ease, whereas Tommy blew the dude away in double quick time with one of the most destructive right hands we have on film. Dooran lost, cleanly, and against two top quality operators. We don't need excuses. Who needs the excuses.

Dominant Lightweight, very well rounded, and a few incredible performances and victories against the likes of Ray, Iran, Palomino, and Marvin, but he doesn't win every single hypothetical match-up from Lightweight to Heavyweight and he isn't the best defensive fighter of all time either. He should have retired 10 years before he did and a lot of his Lightweight defenses are terrible spectacles. Sorry brah.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

In short, Dooran was no Gerry 'Slicker than Toney' Penalosa.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I don't mind Dooran. He was a decent fighter. Thing is though, I'm far too intelligent a boxing fan to buy into any of the ridiculous and baseless excuses that have been circulating boxing forums since the internet's inception. He lost to Ray Leonard in New Orleans not because he horribly mistimed a poo, but because Ray Leonard employed more movement and frustrated Dooran into quitting. Such was the performance of Dooran in the return bout that I'm inclined to believe that Ray would always, always win a fight between the two if he decided to employ these tactics. Ray adjusted and won the fight. No more, no less. I also think it's hard on Benitez and Hearns to use the other common excuses where Duran is concerned - that he hadn't trained properly and was out of shape. Benitez stood in the pocket and boxed Dooran's head off for 15 rounds despite Duran looking in great shape and going the distance with ease, whereas Tommy blew the dude away in double quick time with one of the most destructive right hands we have on film. Dooran lost, cleanly, and against two top quality operators. We don't need excuses. Who needs the excuses.
> 
> Dominant Lightweight, very well rounded, and a few incredible performances and victories against the likes of Ray, Iran, Palomino, and Marvin, but he doesn't win every single hypothetical match-up from Lightweight to Heavyweight and he isn't the best defensive fighter of all time either. He should have retired 10 years before he did and a lot of his Lightweight defenses are terrible spectacles. Sorry brah.


Second page, bruv. :deal

http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/how-would-duran-do-at-154-160-today.83707/page-2

I'll always be a Duranimal at heart but I long ago learned somewhat measured objectivity when it comes to him. I can even be downright critical. I don't like the Benitez fight AT ALL btw, and I'm talking about a hypothetical at 147. I'm actively ducking you on that. I also know he trained particularly hard for their actual fight a class up.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Now imagine if Hagler had fought a true middleweight at the level of Tiberi
> 
> :grin


:rofl

This is some shit Pedderrs would say. Low. :-( You somehow managed to diss both of them.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Second page, bruv. :deal
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/how-would-duran-do-at-154-160-today.83707/page-2
> 
> I'll always be a Duranimal at heart but I long ago learned somewhat measured objectivity when it comes to him. I can even be downright critical. I don't like the Benitez fight AT ALL btw, and I'm talking about a hypothetical at 147. I'm actively ducking you on that. I also know he trained particularly hard for their actual fight a class up.


In my defense, I do try and stay away from Dooran topics because I openly concede that I'm not as knowledgeable about the kid as a lot of our resident experts. I'm primarily all about the midgets buddy, but I see absolutely no rationale or logic in favouring Dooran in a hypothetical with Benitez at Welter when the fight was so one-sided at 154lbs. I think it's a barnstorming performance on the part of Wilfred, who stayed in the pocket and picked Dooran off with the jab and right hand all night. Dooran rarely tried to impose himself as he had against Ray in Montreal but Wilfred was a master at countering off of the ropes. There was no panic in him whatsoever. Dooran would have wanted to win this fight desperately considering his hatred for Benitez ran almost as deep as his hatred for Ray. He was motivated all right.

I've got to give mad props to Dooran for this though. Some of his moves in this one would make Neo blush.

































I believe his trunks rate quite highly too. I'm loving the RN on the front.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

The Monk said:


> Durans main weaknesses were between fights.
> It was clearly obvious he wasn't as sharp in certain fights as he was in Montreal. A prime dedicated Duran beats Leonard every time. He also beats Benitez which wasn't as easy for Benitez as some make out. Hearns and Hagler were always going to be to much for him though.


I shouldn't have to explain which part I'm referring to but no he fucking doesn't.
And you got nothing that suggests he does.
A Leonard that doesn't stand toe to toe has a chance against any version of Duran you want.
Behave yourself!


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

The Monk said:


> I was a bit ignorant there mate. To correct my point- No way Leonard is able to do what he did in the second fight to Montreal Duran. It's always a close fight who ever wins.
> 
> I believe Leonards team did go in with a better hit and move tactic the second fight. They knew they were getting a struggling to make weight, less motivated Duran. Even out of shape Duran was still great on the inside because he was so clever there so it would've been crazy for Leonard to go toe to toe even with that version of Duran. To chase down a brilliant athletic mover like Leonard would always require Duran to be 100%, any less than that and he's losing. The same with Benitez.


I read your original post before this so I forgive you.x


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You badly need an avatar, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never thought I'd see the day,especially at this stage of his life,but GOAT has a Skechers ad on the TV over here.
Not many 7 year old girls will say to their dads over here "Have you seen who's got an advert for Skechers?"
Talk about feeling proud?
Quite proud of the kid saying that too even though I was a little insulted that she thought it would be news to me.
I didn't beat on her though.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I shouldn't have to explain which part I'm referring to but no he fucking doesn't.
> And you got nothing that suggests he does.
> A Leonard that doesn't stand toe to toe has a chance against any version of Duran you want.
> Behave yourself!


Perhaps he'd prefer to get Palmer involved?


----------



## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> In my defense, I do try and stay away from Dooran topics because I openly concede that I'm not as knowledgeable about the kid as a lot of our resident experts. I'm primarily all about the midgets buddy, but I see absolutely no rationale or logic in favouring Dooran in a hypothetical with Benitez at Welter when the fight was so one-sided at 154lbs. I think it's a barnstorming performance on the part of Wilfred, who stayed in the pocket and picked Dooran off with the jab and right hand all night. Dooran rarely tried to impose himself as he had against Ray in Montreal but Wilfred was a master at countering off of the ropes. There was no panic in him whatsoever. Dooran would have wanted to win this fight desperately considering his hatred for Benitez ran almost as deep as his hatred for Ray. He was motivated all right.
> 
> I've got to give mad props to Dooran for this though. Some of his moves in this one would make Neo blush.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing it means "Roberto's Nuts" so you shouldn't punch there.


----------



## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

PityTheFool said:


> I read your original post before this so I forgive you.x


I knew you'd give me shit for that post, mate :lol:


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## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

He seems small for the weight imo


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

GGG would beat him, he just simply would beat him 9/10, his jab is far too good for duran, its not that close of a fight either, apart from that no one beats Duran, Lara and canelo give him decent fights, but dont come close especially not Canelo


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Chacal said:


> In these hypotheticals you have to assume the best version of Duran. Duran at 160 was ahead on points against Hagler after 12 rounds. I see no reason why he couldn't do that to GGG. Of course GGG could stop him, but he took massive shots from Barkley which tells you when he is conditioned right at 160 he can take those bombs. I think he can beat anyone at 154 or 160 today. He would beat all of the 154 group with moderate ease and Ithink he can beat everyone at 160 too.


GGG fights longer than hagler and has a better jab and more power than hagler...not saying he's better than hagler...but styles wise he holds advantages over duran that hagler didn't


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> GGG fights longer than hagler and has a better jab and more power than hagler...not saying he's better than hagler...but styles wise he holds advantages over duran that hagler didn't


wtf?

GGG does NOT have a better jab than hagler


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> GGG has a better jab


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hagler would dice Golovkin to fucking ribbons. I'd go so far as to say he's made to order for him even though too many people get the wrong impression based on a couple of late career fights. He could do that to him too if necessary, but what for when he can rock his dome back all night with precise counterpunching?


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hagler would certainly try to box/counter Golovkin all night.
It wouldn't be Hearns-Hagler kind of war, no reason to.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Hagler did not have a better jab than ggg, being a better fighter does not mean he had a better jab... And you can box well without a great jab...


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hagler would dice Golovkin to fucking ribbons. I'd go so far as to say he's made to order for him even though too many people get the wrong impression based on a couple of late career fights. He could do that to him too if necessary, but what for when he can rock his dome back all night with precise counterpunching?


What about the Hagler of the Mugabi or Leonard fights? How do you think GGG stacks up against that past-prime Hagler?


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> GGG fights longer than hagler and has a better jab and more power than hagler...not saying he's better than hagler...but styles wise he holds advantages over duran that hagler didn't


Wow.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> Hagler did not have a better jab than ggg, being a better fighter does not mean he had a better jab... And you can box well without a great jab...


Hagler had one of the best southpaw jabs in history. Let me guess, you've only watched him fight Hearns and Leonard.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> Hagler would certainly try to box/counter Golovkin all night.
> It wouldn't be Hearns-Hagler kind of war, no reason to.


It was actually both disappointing and mildly impressive to see Golovkin fighting so conservatively versus the Hockey Player.

The Hagler-GGG has not war written all over it.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Chacal said:


> Hagler had one of the best southpaw jabs in history. Let me guess, you've only watched him fight Hearns and Leonard.


Haglers jab was overrated, he often pawed with it, no one tried to expose it because Hagler was too good of a fighter, but he used to drop his jab back down to his chest when bringing it back. He threw either power jab which was excellent but half the time he pawed with it


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Hagler would certainly try to box/counter Golovkin all night.
> It wouldn't be Hearns-Hagler kind of war, no reason to.


This is what I said! :ibutt Yeah, and it's not to say the man wasn't an aggressive fighter. He could be and was aggressive. An aggressive counter-puncher with one of the hardest jabs of all-time.



Eoghan said:


> What about the Hagler of the Mugabi or Leonard fights? How do you think GGG stacks up against that past-prime Hagler?


Well, that's not being very fair to Marvin is it? :lol:

I actually dislike this guy a good bit and would be embarrassed if some of his biggest fans like tommygun or Zopilote were to see me defending him that passionately and dismissively. Golovkin doesn't possess the physical qualities or versatility to fight him in the way SRL coerced him (nor do I think he'd prefer to) and Hagler was never truly adept at cutting the ring. He still really wouldn't have the incentive to come flying out of the corner like a wild bull re: Hearns, and I'd still bet on him controlling the fight at ring centre. I don't have any doubt 3G's hands are heavier and power greater at 160, but in a test of will's and chin's I find the idea of Hagler getting stopped preposterous. I just simply can't envisage it. I see Gena losing on cuts before anything as his whiskers aren't exactly weak himself if it turns into a more drawn out and brutal Mugabi-type affair.

The interesting thing is I don't believe he hung around in the sport long enough to be considered truly "past it", nevermind shot although this can obviously vary considerably fighter-to-fighter. He obtained the status as the sport's best P4P fighter circa 1982 after Leonard's retirement and Sanchez's untimely death and it's a position he still had mere months prior to and going into the fight with Ray Leonard per the annual KO Magazine poll done at the time (December '86). Needless to say, he didn't lose that status in training camp but in reality and retrospect, he probably wasn't -- running a quart low but still worthy of a top five shout. Maybe a bit like '93 Julio Cesar Chavez going into the Pernell Whitaker super fight. Still a great if not phenomenal victory for whoever could take him @PityTheFool.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> This is what I said! :ibutt Yeah, and it's not to say the man wasn't an aggressive fighter. He could be and was aggressive. An aggressive counter-puncher with one of the hardest jabs of all-time.
> 
> Well, that's not being very fair to Marvin is it? :lol:
> 
> ...


Much as I like 3G,it would probably have taken a prime Tyson to make a bet on even a slightly past prime Hagler.
I'd actually bet on Hagler circa 1986 (obvious reason for that being a fair year to pick) against Gennady,but thank God we've got him for wonderful displays from a top level (at any era) banger who can actually box.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> He obtained the status as the sport's best P4P fighter circa 1982 after Leonard's retirement and Sanchez's untimely death


And Pryor's descent into hell:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> And Pryor's descent into hell:


Pryor's descent into hell would've came even without an Arguello W. Shit was going down with Leonard after he handled Stafford in May '82, but he retired. Aaron overheard it on the radio while driving on the freeway, pulled off to the side of the road and started balling his eyes out. True story.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> It was only a dream


Little Girl: Look, Dad, it's Aaron!
Ray: Isn't he beautiful?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Little Girl: Look, Dad, it's Aaron!
> Ray: Isn't he beautiful?


85% still believe SRL "ducked" Pryor. 10% know that Pryor turned down an offer thanks to people like Thread Stealer. A mere 5% know Leonard's camp actually made a *second* offer worth an extra $250,000 that Pryor accepted and signed for the Fall of 1982. The fact of the matter is, people would look back on that fight and criticize SRL for it today.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Same goes for Winky Wright and De La Hoya .
Some claim that Oscar ducked Winky but Winky rejected a career high payday demanding more.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Same goes for Winky Wright and De La Hoya .
> Some claim that Oscar ducked Winky but Winky rejected a career high payday demanding more.


Nothing but Julio Cesar Vasquez leftovers, unfortunately.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> Haglers jab was overrated, he often pawed with it, no one tried to expose it because Hagler was too good of a fighter, but he used to drop his jab back down to his chest when bringing it back. He threw either power jab which was excellent but half the time he pawed with it


This is just revisionism history. Hagler's jab was not overrated at all. He always snapped that fucking jab.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

tommygun711 said:


> This is just revisionism history. Hagler's jab was not overrated at all. He always snapped that fucking jab.


That was one of the fights he used great jabs. Like I said he had great power jabs, but look at like 30 second mark he starts pawing with it, this is a short clip Also, Normally when he threw pawing jabs nothing happened cause opponents couldn't do anything, half the time was obviously an exaggeration from me, but people only remember a great fighter with no flaws, truth is he often pawed with it, not saying ggg is better or anything of that nature, but gggs jab would work better vs Duran cause it's thrown more constantly and more consistently and are long jabs, hagler's was often short jabs which didn't come off vs Duran, Haglers great jabs were always power jabs, when they weren't he pawed with it. I say overrated cause I don't feel it was an ATG jab like some have said (maybe not this thread, but said often)


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> That was one of the fights he used great jabs. Like I said he had great power jabs, but look at like 30 second mark he starts pawing with it, this is a short clip Also, Normally when he threw pawing jabs nothing happened cause opponents couldn't do anything, half the time was obviously an exaggeration from me, but people only remember a great fighter with no flaws, truth is he often pawed with it, not saying ggg is better or anything of that nature, but gggs jab would work better vs Duran cause it's thrown more constantly and more consistently and are long jabs, hagler's was often short jabs which didn't come off vs Duran, Haglers great jabs were always power jabs, when they weren't he pawed with it. I say overrated cause I don't feel it was an ATG jab like some have said (maybe not this thread, but said often)


GGG hasn't proven his jab on elite level like Hagler. He hasn't even fought anyone that can jab with him.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The interesting thing is I don't believe he hung around in the sport long enough to be considered truly "past it", nevermind shot although this can obviously vary considerably fighter-to-fighter. He obtained the status as the sport's best P4P fighter circa 1982 after Leonard's retirement and Sanchez's untimely death and it's a position he still had mere months prior to and going into the fight with Ray Leonard per the annual KO Magazine poll done at the time (December '86). Needless to say, he didn't lose that status in training camp but in reality and retrospect, he probably wasn't -- running a quart low but still worthy of a top five shout. Maybe a bit like '93 Julio Cesar Chavez going into the Pernell Whitaker super fight. Still a great if not phenomenal victory for whoever could take him @PityTheFool.


The reality is Hands, Mahvin was definitely past it. You can see it in his speed, timing. His mentality was different. he had evolved from Boxer puncher to dumb slugger and it's like he forgot a lot of the skills that got him to that level. Even a past it Marvin Hagler is a p4p fighter and would beat up, break down Golovkin the same way that he did Mugabi. With pressure & vicious work on the inside. At that point of his career his jab wasn't exactly world class, but Marvin was always a monster on the inside and that is an area where GGG isn't use to getting a lot of opposition.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Ray Leonard beating a 50% Hagler under those circumstances is a monumental achievement and still one of the best wins of the last 40 years.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Ray Leonard beating a 50% Hagler under those circumstances is a monumental achievement and still one of the best wins of the last 40 years.


Ray didn't win though.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Ray didn't win though.


You aren't worthy of Manitas De Piedra. Change your avatar to Kermit Cintron immediately.


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

KO-KING said:


> That was one of the fights he used great jabs. Like I said he had great power jabs, but look at like 30 second mark he starts pawing with it, this is a short clip Also, Normally when he threw pawing jabs nothing happened cause opponents couldn't do anything, half the time was obviously an exaggeration from me, but people only remember a great fighter with no flaws, truth is he often pawed with it, not saying ggg is better or anything of that nature, but gggs jab would work better vs Duran cause it's thrown more constantly and more consistently and are long jabs, hagler's was often short jabs which didn't come off vs Duran, Haglers great jabs were always power jabs, when they weren't he pawed with it. I say overrated cause I don't feel it was an ATG jab like some have said (maybe not this thread, but said often)


What's wrong with pawing with the jab whilst also having an ATG Jab?

It's called jab variety my fiend.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> That was one of the fights he used great jabs. Like I said he had great power jabs, but look at like 30 second mark he starts pawing with it, this is a short clip Also, Normally when he threw pawing jabs nothing happened cause opponents couldn't do anything, half the time was obviously an exaggeration from me, but people only remember a great fighter with no flaws, truth is he often pawed with it, not saying ggg is better or anything of that nature, but gggs jab would work better vs Duran cause it's thrown more constantly and more consistently and are long jabs, hagler's was often short jabs which didn't come off vs Duran, Haglers great jabs were always power jabs, when they weren't he pawed with it. I say overrated cause I don't feel it was an ATG jab like some have said (maybe not this thread, but said often)


Pawing with a jab is not a flaw, it's simply a different use of the jab to find the range. Floyd paws with his jab, as did Hearns when measuring, Mosley pawed with his jab before feinting and letting loose a killer right hand, even Golovkin himself often paws with the jab while closing the distance. As the Monk said, that's jab versatility. In fact a pawing jab is often the sign of a fighter who has great accuracy and control of distance. Spence just put that on display against Algieri with his own pawing measuring jabs. A pawing jab is not automatically a counter liability because there's little commitment and the fighter is already being careful as they advance.


----------



## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Bogo nailed it .

The most intelligent boxers faint and paw the jab, as well as having a highly accurate crisp jab when they want to employ it. An intelligent jabber has their opponents not knowing what the fuck they're going to do with the jab, making their opponents suseptable to the jab. A consistent hard jab is a predictable jab.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

The Monk said:


> Bogo nailed it .
> 
> The most intelligent boxers faint and paw the jab, as well as having a highly accurate crisp jab when they want to employ it. An intelligent jabber has their opponents not knowing what the fuck they're going to do with the jab, making their opponents suseptable to the jab. A consistent hard jab is a predictable jab.


So what is it you're trying to say?


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Pawing with a jab is not a flaw, it's simply a different use of the jab to find the range. Floyd paws with his jab, as did Hearns when measuring, Mosley pawed with his jab before feinting and letting loose a killer right hand, even Golovkin himself often paws with the jab while closing the distance. As the Monk said, that's jab versatility. In fact a pawing jab is often the sign of a fighter who has great accuracy and control of distance. Spence just put that on display against Algieri with his own pawing measuring jabs. A pawing jab is not automatically a counter liability because there's little commitment and the fighter is already being careful as they advance.


Would you call Klitschko's use of the pawing jab a flaw? He uses it a lot, but had always been in control of fights until the Fury fight


----------



## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Pedderrs said:


> So what is it you're trying to say?


Jabbings great.

I would love to jobby jab inside the arse hole of @Rob. I would faint the dong jab to get him twitching, then paw with the dong jab to make him feel really uncomfortable, then I would Ram a crisp hard double dong jab right up his arse forcing his shit out of his nose and mouth.

He spews shit anyway.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

What's the point of a jab if you can just throw a left hook?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

dyna said:


> What's the point of a jab if you can just throw a left hook?


Exactly

The most intelligent boxers faint and paw the left hook, as well as having a highly accurate crisp left hook when they want to employ it. An intelligent left hooker has their opponents not knowing what the fuck they're going to do with the hook, making their opponents susceptible to the hook. A consistent hard hook is a predictable hook.


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Pedderrs said:


> Exactly
> 
> The most intelligent boxers faint and paw the left hook, as well as having a highly accurate crisp left hook when they want to employ it. An intelligent left hooker has their opponents not knowing what the fuck they're going to do with the hook, making their opponents susceptible to the hook. A consistent hard hook is a predictable hook.


I've never met an intelligent hooker in my life.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> What's the point of a jab if you can just throw a left hook?


Why'd PP step out of the conversation anyway?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> So what is it you're trying to say?




__
https://soundcloud.com/https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fboobooboxing%2Fboo-boo-wins-with-the-jab



Eoghan said:


> Would you call Klitschko's use of the pawing jab a flaw? He uses it a lot, but had always been in control of fights until the Fury fight


I'd call it borderline illegal actually, but yeah, not a flaw.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why'd PP step out of the conversation anyway?


Learned from his hero's mistakes.
He retired during his prime.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Learned from his hero's mistakes.
> He retired during his prime.


Well, I thought I made a pretty decent post in response to him but nothing at all to completely leave the conversation about. I'm pretty sure he saw the same fights. Some of Duran's lightweight defences I will never set eyes on again.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well, I thought I made a pretty decent post in response to him but nothing at all to completely leave the conversation about. I'm pretty sure he saw the same fights. Some of Duran's lightweight defences I will never set eyes on again.


I think it can be said of Dooran that he was never a terribly consistent performer, only he was getting away with it against the lesser talents down at 135lbs. You're on point -- some of Dooran's Lightweight bouts are terrible spectacles. Horrific. Cory Spinks level non-events.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I think it can be said of Dooran that he was never a terribly consistent performer, only he was getting away with it against the lesser talents down at 135lbs. You're on point -- some of Dooran's Lightweight bouts are terrible spectacles. Horrific. Cory Spinks level non-events.


I'd much rather watch JCC blast out cab drivers and drug addict Top 10 contenders like Angel Hernandez (37-0) and John Duplessis (36-1). He didn't fuck about and put you through fucking misery like Duran. He ended it. The Lonnie Smith fight sucked balls though. Not Chavez's fault. I remember he drops his hands and just glares at him in disgust in the first round.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

The Monk said:


> I've never met an intelligent hooker in my life.


I read this like 2 hours ago but I've only just gotten the joke.

And now I'm like :kov


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## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Great job gentlemen, one hell'a thread to read. :yep


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> Great job gentlemen, one hell'a thread to read. :yep


How you been dude?! I remember talking about Outkast on ESB with you years ago. :lol:


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## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

LMFAO!! Yep, those were the days...


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

@Jab


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Bogotazo said:


> Pawing with a jab is not a flaw, it's simply a different use of the jab to find the range. Floyd paws with his jab, as did Hearns when measuring, Mosley pawed with his jab before feinting and letting loose a killer right hand, even Golovkin himself often paws with the jab while closing the distance. As the Monk said, that's jab versatility. In fact a pawing jab is often the sign of a fighter who has great accuracy and control of distance. Spence just put that on display against Algieri with his own pawing measuring jabs. A pawing jab is not automatically a counter liability because there's little commitment and the fighter is already being careful as they advance.


It isn't always a weakness, but conversation was vs Duran, ggg often feints with the jab but doesn't pay with it like Hagler, I still manta that ggg jab would work better vs Duran than hagler's


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

The Monk said:


> What's wrong with pawing with the jab whilst also having an ATG Jab?
> 
> It's called jab variety my fiend.


Nothing wrong with it, but that sort of variety wouldn't work vs Duran in my opinion


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> It isn't always a weakness, but conversation was vs Duran, ggg often feints with the jab but doesn't pay with it like Hagler, I still manta that ggg jab would work better vs Duran than hagler's


You said GGG had a better jab than Hagler, not that his would work better vs Dooran.



> GGG fights longer than hagler and *has a better jab and more power than hagler.*..not saying he's better than hagler...but styles wise he holds advantages over duran that hagler didn't


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

tommygun711 said:


> GGG hasn't proven his jab on elite level like Hagler. He hasn't even fought anyone that can jab with him.


Very true, he hasn't proven anything vs anyone atg, so all of it is Hypothetical as is all the rest of the match ups vs ggg, but Duran wouldn't be the one to jab with him either


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Pedderrs said:


> You said GGG had a better jab than Hagler, not that his would work better vs Dooran.


I clarified in other posts, and even in this one said he jabs longer, also mentioned styles and yes you can have a different style of jab.

I was also replying to what ggg can do vs Duran Hagler couldn't, hence his jab would be better vs Duran, it was a reply not a statement on its own, I've also said hagler's jabs are shorter...

Writing in a phone, so words might not be perfect, but I clarified few times what I said or what my point was


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> Very true, he hasn't proven anything vs anyone atg, so all of it is Hypothetical as is all the rest of the match ups vs ggg, but Duran wouldn't be the one to jab with him either


A middleweight Duran is still better at slipping the jab than anyone GGG has faced though, he wouldn't necessarily have to match him jab for jab


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

KO-KING said:


> Nothing wrong with it, but that sort of variety wouldn't work vs Duran in my opinion


I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think. Your gonna get raped in here for your retarded opinions.

Adios, ******.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Eoghan said:


> A middleweight Duran is still better at slipping the jab than anyone GGG has faced though, he wouldn't necessarily have to match him jab for jab


I agree, it's Hypothetical, but dont think Duran would want to slip in due to gggs power, but rather slip out, don't think he can win like that on the outside, don't think he can deal with the power in mid range either


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

The Monk said:


> I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think. Your gonna get raped in here for your retarded opinions.
> 
> Adios, ******.


You couldn't even successfully nail Palmer without consent, so what makes you think you'll be able to seal it against a poster called the KO King? Dude will just add you on to his list of victims if you try any of that rape shit. He also has a better jab than @Gary Barlow. I've seen it.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

The Monk said:


> I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think. Your gonna get raped in here for your retarded opinions.
> 
> Adios, ******.


Why reply to my opinion if you don't care about it....and you post like a 12 year old, whats wrong with you.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> Why reply to my opinion if you don't care about it....and you post like a 12 year old, whats wrong with you.


I've never known a 12 year old to threaten with rape before. They usually threaten violence or start throwing things, but they never threaten to give the D.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Pedderrs said:


> I've never known a 12 year old to threaten with rape before. They usually threaten violence or start throwing things, but they never threaten to give the D.


Really?

Where you from?

12 year olds say some vile ass shit


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

KO-KING said:


> Why reply to my opinion if you don't care about it....and you post like a 12 year old, whats wrong with you.


Listen *** I dont give a flying fuck about your opinion.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> Really?
> 
> Where you from?
> 
> 12 year olds say some vile ass shit


Well I'd hate to live in your neighborhood buddy. Besides, if a 12 year old threatens to rape you, it's no big deal because they probably don't have the physical capacity to do it. The Monk is a different story -- he's a grown ass man. If he wants you, he can have you.

But don't worry, The Monk isn't motivated and driven enough to rape you. He gave up with Palmer, who is probably prettier than you, so he'll give up with you too.


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Pedderrs said:


> Well I'd hate to live in your neighborhood buddy. Besides, if a 12 year old threatens to rape you, it's no big deal because they probably don't have the physical capacity to do it. The Monk is a different story -- he's a grown ass man. If he wants you, he can have you.
> 
> But don't worry, The Monk isn't motivated and driven enough to rape you. He gave up with Palmer, who is probably prettier than you, so he'll give up with you too.


Pedderrs I still got game, mate. I just need a drink of lucozade and a dab of speed before I'm Palmer level again.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Pedderrs said:


> Well I'd hate to live in your neighborhood buddy. Besides, if a 12 year old threatens to rape you, it's no big deal because they probably don't have the physical capacity to do it. The Monk is a different story -- he's a grown ass man. If he wants you, he can have you.
> 
> But don't worry, The Monk isn't motivated and driven enough to rape you. He gave up with Palmer, who is probably prettier than you, so he'll give up with you too.


Kids never swearing at Me, but here them all the time saying that shit to each other


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

The Monk said:


> Pedderrs I still got game, mate. I just need a drink of lucozade and a dab of speed before I'm Palmer level again.


P.S Palmer is quite handsome. My gran would bake him cakes


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

KO-KING said:


> Kids never swearing at Me, but here them all the time saying that shit to each other


Pure savagery. I never used to threaten rape when I was a kid. What's happening to the world!?


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

KO-KING said:


> Kids never swearing at Me, but here them all the time saying that shit to each other


Man I want to destroy you for being a fucking pussy. I'll leave you to rot in your own bullshit.

Fagios


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> It isn't always a weakness, but conversation was vs Duran, ggg often feints with the jab but doesn't pay with it like Hagler, I still manta that ggg jab would work better vs Duran than hagler's


I just don't think GGG could do anything with his jab that Hagler couldn't or didn't, and so it wouldn't be a difference maker against Duran.


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

Bogotazo said:


> I just don't think GGG could do anything with his jab that Hagler couldn't or didn't, and so it wouldn't be a difference maker against Duran.


Whilst I don't think ggg would have direct better success with the jab, the reason I believe he would do better than Hagler was, Hagler vs Duran landed better and cleaner when he backed Duran up, when Duran came forward Hagler struggled to land his jab, but when Duran was reluctant to come forward or backed up, Hagler landed better, I feel against ggg Duran wouldn't slip in avoiding the jab because of golovkins power, I reckon Duran would back up more easily vs golovkin, and when Duran backed up he wasn't as good, you can even see this in the Hagler fight, he slipped well when he came forward, but didn't when he went back, against ggg he would go back lot more than he did vs Hagler, against Hagler Duran had the option of being able to fight mid range, and could trade with Hagler. He wouldn't have that option vs golovkin and I don't see Duran being able to beat ggg backing up, hence I feel ggg would have better success with his jab than Hagler did.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

There are criticisms you can make of Hagler.

His jab isn't one of em.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

KO-KING said:


> Whilst I don't think ggg would have direct better success with the jab, the reason I believe he would do better than Hagler was, Hagler vs Duran landed better and cleaner when he backed Duran up, when Duran came forward Hagler struggled to land his jab, but when Duran was reluctant to come forward or backed up, Hagler landed better, I feel against ggg Duran wouldn't slip in avoiding the jab because of golovkins power, I reckon Duran would back up more easily vs golovkin, and when Duran backed up he wasn't as good, you can even see this in the Hagler fight, he slipped well when he came forward, but didn't when he went back, against ggg he would go back lot more than he did vs Hagler, against Hagler Duran had the option of being able to fight mid range, and could trade with Hagler. He wouldn't have that option vs golovkin and I don't see Duran being able to beat ggg backing up, hence I feel ggg would have better success with his jab than Hagler did.


This is all assuming Golovkin isn't befuddled by the feints and outslicked on the inside of course. Just not enough information on Golovkin yet.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Having just watched GGG outjab and destroy the formiddable Dominic Wade, I retract everything I previously said in regards to GGG's jab. It is indeed better than Hagler's.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hagler never managed to be 18-0, therefore Wade was like a supercharged Marvin Hagler.


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## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

Duran was cut from a different cloth. He was a true warrior, not like these cheque collecting bums these days.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Mr Magic said:


> Duran was cut from a different cloth. He was a true warrior, not like these cheque collecting bums these days.


Same Duran who quit because of stomach cramps.


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## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

dyna said:


> Same Duran who quit because of stomach cramps.


He had to earn back his respect after that, and he did.


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## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Just watched the GGG fight, that Wade was terrible.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

dyna said:


> Same Duran who quit because of stomach cramps.


Dyna dropping truth bombs as per. People still trying to paint Dooran as some kind of stoic warrior is hilarious. He refused to embrace both Leonard and Benitez after his fights with them, after getting schooled both times, quitting in the rematch with Leonard, and then he took a dive when feather-fisted Hearns grazed him with a right hand. Vinny Paz styling on him in his prime doesn't help matters either.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Wouldn't bet on that cake eater. @Hands of Iron


I'd of honestly preferred he packed it in after Montreal tbh. It is a tough thing to say given the way fights against Moore, Barkley and Cuevas make me feel, but ultimately I'd trade them in for the embarrassing losses and moments. Being Fab 4 elevates his popularity, but not his standing. Not really. It isn't as if retiring 72-1-0 (56 KO) with a lightweight reign that stretched from 1972-78 and wins over SRL, Buchanan, Marcel, DeJesus (x2) and Palomino wasn't good enough. I already made it clear what sort of fighter he was to my eyes post-147, and it doesn't do it for me.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'd of honestly preferred he packed it in after Montreal tbh. It is a tough thing to say given the way fights against Moore, Barkley and Cuevas make me feel, but ultimately I'd trade them in for the embarrassing losses and moments. Being Fab 4 elevates his popularity, but not his standing. Not really. It isn't as if retiring 72-1-0 (56 KO) with a lightweight reign that stretched from 1972-78 and wins over SRL, Buchanan, Marcel, DeJesus (x2) and Palomino wasn't good enough. I already made it clear what sort of fighter he was to my eyes post-147, and it doesn't do it for me.


Does pre-147 do it for you? You've gone as far to say that a fair few of Dooran's Lightweight bouts were, what, unwatchable? People either don't remember or choose not to acknowledge Dooran's embarrassing losses, so I think it's probably for the best that he did carry on after Montreal. Ray also deserved a rematch, so not granting one would probably hurt him. Well, it probably wouldn't with this lot, but objectively speaking it should.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Does pre-147 do it for you? You've gone as far to say that a fair few of Dooran's Lightweight bouts were, what, unwatchable?


That's a fair question and although there was definitely some hyperbole involved to big up JCC, it's also not that far from the truth. The problem is that Dooran didn't become a truly complete fighter until the mid-to-late 1970s and I see his absolute peak being from 78-80. He would honestly be one of my favorite fighters of all-time in the strength of the DeJesus III, Palomino and SRL I performances alone, I was that impressed.

Unfortunately, this completeness coincided with fighting clowns such as Bizzaro and Fernandez (not a bad fighter, however). I like the Nsubuga (EXPLOSIVE right hands), Brooks and Wheatley kills more than most his pre-147 stuff but all three DeJesus fights are class, the Kobayashi blowout astonishing, the Marcel fight an interesting study for both. So yeah, he does it for me there overall.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's a fair question and although there was definitely some hyperbole involved to big up JCC, it's also not that far from the truth. The problem is that Dooran didn't become a truly complete fighter until the mid-to-late 1970s and I see his absolute peak being from 78-80. He would honestly be one of my favorite fighters of all-time in the strength of the DeJesus III, Palomino and SRL I performances alone, I was that impressed.
> 
> Unfortunately, this completeness coincided with fighting clowns such as Bizzaro and Fernandez (not a bad fighter, however). I like the Nsubuga (EXPLOSIVE right hands), Brooks and Wheatley kills more than most his pre-147 stuff but all three DeJesus fights are class, the Kobayashi blowout astonishing, the Marcel fight an interesting study for both. So yeah, he does it for me there overall.


A lot of Welterweights embarrass that Palomino, so not hugely impressive, but I do think the Leonard and Barkley performances are every bit as good as advertised. Two of the best performances I've ever seen. I want to like the guy, I really do, but he made too many excuses and was far too inconsistent for my taste. If he beats JCC next time out though, I'll be a believer. A Duranimal.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> A lot of Welterweights embarrass that Palomino, so not hugely impressive, but I do think the Leonard and Barkley performances are every bit as good as advertised. Two of the best performances I've ever seen. I want to like the guy, I really do, but he made too many excuses and was far too inconsistent for my taste. If he beats JCC next time out though, I'll be a believer. A Duranimal.


I'm sure a lot of great welters style on that Palomino, and his mind wasn't into it when he signed for that fight. I don't claim it as some significanty great win but you could sure do worse than a guy at his age, condition and experience mere months removed from being the Welterweight Champion of the World. It's never been who he did so much as how he did him. It's just merely a very good win but more importantly one of the quintessential Dooran Skillz Experience© examples.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> There are criticisms you can make of Hagler.
> 
> His jab isn't one of em.


How did that manage to go on for pages? :lol: atsch


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