# Roy Jones is the Greatest Fighter I've ever Seen



## turbotime

A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf


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## Cuarenta

Failed bro


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## turbotime

Cuarenta said:


> Failed bro


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## tommygun711

nope. doesn't have the resume for such a claim.


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## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> nope. doesn't have the resume for such a claim.


That wasn't my statement


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## Golovkingreatestever

Personally I never saw anyone better than Roy his resume is why I don't put him on best list but he had talent to be.


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## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> That wasn't my statement


he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when he looks so spectacular over shitty tomato cans, and when his two best wins are over toney and hopkins


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## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when he looks so spectacular over shitty tomato cans, and when his two best wins are over toney and hopkins


Johnson wasn't and Gonzales weren't cans.


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## Dealt_with

tommygun711 said:


> he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when he looks so spectacular over shitty tomato cans, and when his two best wins are over toney and hopkins


:huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


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## Golovkingreatestever

Dealt_with said:


> :huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


I know right, for his weight it was the best win humanly possible.


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## LeftHook4rmHell

Dealt_with said:


> :huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


:deal

That's exactly what I was thinking.


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## Bogotazo

H2H he looked nearly invincible. It kills me how his iq and skillset get shit on by people who think speed and power alone can win fights at that level.


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## Golovkingreatestever

People always forgetting


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## turbotime

Bogotazo said:


> H2H he looked nearly invincible. It kills me how his iq and skillset get shit on by people who think speed and power alone can win fights at that level.


what was scary was his countering. it was very subtle and even then you were usually KTFO


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## tommygun711

Dealt_with said:


> :huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


They get better quite easily as soon as you start looking at the REAL G.O.A.T.S. People might argue that Toney wasn't at his best weight-wise. Hopkins may or may not have been at his best. of course they are great wins but not really substantial enough for Roy to be considered the best of all time... quite laughable for anyone to fucking say that.



turbotime said:


> Johnson wasn't and Gonzales weren't cans.


Do you really want me to start naming all of the cans Roy fought?


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## Bogotazo

turbotime said:


> what was scary was his countering. it was very subtle and even then you were usually KTFO


Yup. It happened before you knew it, meet the floor.


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## Dealt_with

tommygun711 said:


> They get better quite easily as soon as you start looking at the REAL G.O.A.T.S. People might argue that Toney wasn't at his best weight-wise. Hopkins may or may not have been at his best. of course they are great wins but not really substantial enough for Roy to be considered the best of all time... quite laughable for anyone to fucking say that.
> 
> Do you really want me to start naming all of the cans Roy fought?


Victories against McCallum, Hill, Tarver, Harding, Woods, Griffen etc. aren't too shabby either. Are you saying that Toney and Hopkins aren't real ATG's?


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## pipe wrenched

Dealt_with said:


> :huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?





LeftHook4rmHell said:


> :deal
> 
> That's exactly what I was thinking.


:deal me too :!:


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## DobyZhee

LeftHook4rmHell said:


> :deal
> 
> That's exactly what I was thinking.


rematches should have been given regardless


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## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> They get better quite easily as soon as you start looking at the REAL G.O.A.T.S. People might argue that Toney wasn't at his best weight-wise. Hopkins may or may not have been at his best. of course they are great wins but not really substantial enough for Roy to be considered the best of all time... quite laughable for anyone to fucking say that.
> 
> Do you really want me to start naming all of the cans Roy fought?


What ATG doesn't look great against cans?


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## tommygun711

Dealt_with said:


> Victories against McCallum, Hill, Tarver, Harding, Woods, Griffen etc. aren't too shabby either. Are you saying that Toney and Hopkins aren't real ATG's?


McCallum was way over the hill, Tarver is always going to be remembered as a 1 hit wonder, Hill & Griffen are two good wins. The rest are EH.

:huh If that's what you got out of my post about Toney and Hopkins, then really I don't know what to say. I'm saying Toney looked lethargic and if I'm right there is plenty of evidence floating around that suggests Toney wasn't at his best condition. Hopkins is a very good win and probably Jones' best but not the great fighter he would become.. He lacked the experience.

The point is that Jones' resume falls short compared to the TRUE greats. Roy would make my top 25-30. But not top 10. There are tons of guys that should rank over him. Like, how can you say Jones is better than Robinson, Ali, Duran, or Benny Leonard in any shape or form?


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## Dealt_with

tommygun711 said:


> McCallum was way over the hill, Tarver is always going to be remembered as a 1 hit wonder, Hill & Griffen are two good wins. The rest are EH.
> 
> :huh If that's what you got out of my post about Toney and Hopkins, then really I don't know what to say. I'm saying Toney looked lethargic and if I'm right there is plenty of evidence floating around that suggests Toney wasn't at his best condition. Hopkins is a very good win and probably Jones' best but not the great fighter he would become.. He lacked the experience.
> 
> The point is that Jones' resume falls short compared to the TRUE greats. Roy would make my top 25-30. But not top 10. There are tons of guys that should rank over him. Like, how can you say Jones is better than Robinson, Ali, Duran, or Benny Leonard in any shape or form?


It depends on how you rank a guy, I put Jones right up there because of his athleticism and head to head potential. I think he has a very good, not great resume.
I'm not a fan of Mayweather or Pac but I rate Mayweather ahead of Pac on the all time list, even though Pac's resume shits on Mayweather's. I think people put too much emphasis on resume and not enough on the eye test when it comes to ATG rankings. Sometimes the opposition simply isn't available, and when you get a fighter as spectacular and dominant as Jones was then he has to be right up there. In terms of speed and athleticism than Jones is better than the fighters you mention.
No fighter is at 100% in the ring, I don't care for the Toney excuses.


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## pipe wrenched

Dealt_with said:


> It depends on how you rank a guy, I put Jones right up there because of his athleticism and head to head potential. I think he has a very good, not great resume.
> I'm not a fan of Mayweather or Pac but I rate Mayweather ahead of Pac on the all time list, even though Pac's resume shits on Mayweather's. I think people put too much emphasis on resume and *not enough on the eye test *when it comes to ATG rankings. Sometimes the opposition simply isn't available, and when you get a fighter as spectacular and dominant as Jones was then he has to be right up there. In terms of speed and athleticism than Jones is better than the fighters you mention.
> No fighter is at 100% in the ring, I don't care for the Toney excuses.


:yep Fine, fine post.... Head 2 Head Jones Jr is a fuggin' monster that is not hard to envision beating just about anybody sometimes.

but achievement wise, he falls short of the list of great accomplishments many of the old greats amassed.

I agree 100% on the bolded part :good


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## Sittin Sonny

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf


C- chin and heart
F- passing drug tests

:yep


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## rjjfan

I remember asking John Garfield how RJJ would fare against the likes of SRR at 160 and others and he said something to the effect that he would be competitive with all of them. That really says it all from someone who has seen the biggest fights in boxing for the past 60-70 years.


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## Sittin Sonny

Dealt_with said:


> :huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


By being Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Harry Greb, etc.



Dealt_with said:


> Are you saying that Toney and Hopkins aren't real ATG's?


Hopkins went on to be, but he wasn't yet at the time of their first fight. In fact, Jones was dominated in his only fight with Hopkins once Hops had established himself as a great (though obviously Jones was past his own prime by then).

I would question whether Toney ever deserved to be rated among the ATGs though. He was like boxing's version of Kurt Warner - he had an impressive start and finish to his career, but also spent much of his prime years mired in mediocrity. And even when he was at the height of his career (pre-Jones), he still needed to escape with a number of questionable decisions. He was successful across a number of weight class, but I don't think he ranks among the best at any single weight that he fought in.


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## rjjfan

Sittin Sonny said:


> By being Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Harry Greb, etc.
> 
> Hopkins went on to be, but he wasn't yet at the time of their first fight. In fact, Jones was dominated in his only fight with Hopkins once Hops had established himself as a great (though obviously Jones was past his own prime by then).
> 
> I would question whether Toney ever deserved to be rated among the ATGs though. He was like boxing's version of Kurt Warner - he had an impressive start and finish to his career, but also spent much of his prime years mired in mediocrity. And even when he was at the height of his career (pre-Jones), he still needed to escape with a number of questionable decisions. He was successful across a number of weight class, but I don't think he ranks among the best at any single weight that he fought in.


Toney was voted as P4P #1 when RJJ fought him. RJJ dominated Hopkins like noone else had when RJJ was in his prime and Hopkins had 3-4 more fights and years on RJJ.


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## gyllespie

He was incredibly gifted with physical abilities. But he was like a powerful robot programmed for warfare. To me greatness isn't all about overpowering people or being faster than your opponent. I have a hard time thinking of anyone who can defeat a prime Roy. However I wouldn't really categorize him as a complete fighter. Just insanely great at a few things but not everything. Put it that way. I admire Roy but I have Bhop higher.


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## Dealt_with

Sittin Sonny said:


> By being Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Harry Greb, etc.
> 
> Hopkins went on to be, but he wasn't yet at the time of their first fight. In fact, Jones was dominated in his only fight with Hopkins once Hops had established himself as a great (though obviously Jones was past his own prime by then).
> 
> I would question whether Toney ever deserved to be rated among the ATGs though. He was like boxing's version of Kurt Warner - he had an impressive start and finish to his career, but also spent much of his prime years mired in mediocrity. And even when he was at the height of his career (pre-Jones), he still needed to escape with a number of questionable decisions. He was successful across a number of weight class, but I don't think he ranks among the best at any single weight that he fought in.


Please, Jones did more damage to Hopkins in their second fight than vice versa, and that was a Roy who should've been retired for years.
And Toney is an ATG, that can't be disputed. He was p4p #1 when he was at super middle, he fought many top fighters all the way up to heavyweight.


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## The Undefeated Gaul

The only reason why I have Jones around 27-29th is because of his H2H ability, his domination of what really is not very impressive opponents. i.e he's hardly in an Eder Jofre era. They were all over the hill or just pretty shit. When you're the top 5 best ever, you can't expect to have your greatness rated higher than it should if you don't have great opponents. He has two great opponents - a young Hopkins and a prime James Toney which are monstrous wins and cement him in the late 20's.
I personally believe Rigondeaux is Top 3 all time at 122, but there's no way he's going to be in the Top 50 in terms of greatness.


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## Mr. Brain

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf
> 
> [video] Wow. That was on an Oscar undercard actually and a horrific KO[/video]


I can live with that.


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## Golovkingreatestever

Sittin Sonny said:


> C- chin and heart
> F- passing drug tests
> 
> :yep


People who hate on ATGs crack me up.


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## Golovkingreatestever

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> The only reason why I have Jones around 27-29th is because of his H2H ability, his domination of what really is not very impressive opponents. i.e he's hardly in an Eder Jofre era. They were all over the hill or just pretty shit. When you're the top 5 best ever, you can't expect to have your greatness rated higher than it should if you don't have great opponents. He has two great opponents - a young Hopkins and a prime James Toney which are monstrous wins and cement him in the late 20's.
> I personally believe Rigondeaux is Top 3 all time at 122, but there's no way he's going to be in the Top 50 in terms of greatness.


Rigo's greatness was stolen from us by Castro and now Ken Hershman, history will be very kind to Rigo.


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## mrtony80

Roy Jones is my favorite fighter of the 90s, but looking at his career retrospectively, he did showcase his considerable talent fighting absolute nobodies. To this day, I still think he ducked Dariuz M. and he purposely got himself DQ'd vs Griffin.


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## The Undefeated Gaul

Golovkingreatestever said:


> Rigo's greatness was stolen from us by Castro and now Ken Hershman, history will be very kind to Rigo.


Amateur history will.

Who is there left for Rigo to face now he's beaten the king of 122?
Agbeko, Yamanaka, Moreno, Frampton, Quigg, Leo Santa Cruz could potentially come down or meet at a 124lb catchweight..they seem like they could be potential future opponents but who knows..HBO have ruined Rigo, and the Top Rank-Golden Boy feud can ruin him further.

Rigo is just too small for 126lbs even though he's better than everyone there.


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## Golovkingreatestever

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Amateur history will.
> 
> Who is there left for Rigo to face now he's beaten the king of 122?
> Agbeko, Yamanaka, Moreno, Frampton, Quigg, Leo Santa Cruz could potentially come down or meet at a 124lb catchweight..they seem like they could be potential future opponents but who knows..HBO have ruined Rigo, and the Top Rank-Golden Boy feud can ruin him further.
> 
> Rigo is just too small for 126lbs even though he's better than everyone there.


He only has 2 fights left with Top Rank, if I'm him I take below my minimum purse for Moreno and Kiko.

Golden Boy has Mares, Guitterez, Santa Cruz and Warren, I haven't given up on him getting fights, you see how many name fighters they got Lara.


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## turbotime

Sittin Sonny said:


> C- chin and heart
> F- passing drug tests
> 
> :yep


sit down Sonny


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## Bladerunner

Great fighter who's massively overrated by those who think hes invincible and underrated by those who think he has a glass jaw and would be knocked out by any top fighter in mythical match ups.


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## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Great fighter who's massively overrated by those who think hes invincible and underrated by those who think he has a glass jaw and would be knocked out by any top fighter in mythical match ups.


In a nutshell really. I probably overrate him in my ATG standings but some can say Whitaker get overrated in ATG standings as well.

But still an amazing fighter to watch.


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## turbotime

Nice segment on Roy's move to Heavyweight right at the start.


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## O59

tommygun711 said:


> McCallum was way over the hill, Tarver is always going to be remembered as a 1 hit wonder, Hill & Griffen are two good wins. The rest are EH.
> 
> :huh If that's what you got out of my post about Toney and Hopkins, then really I don't know what to say. I'm saying Toney looked lethargic and if I'm right there is plenty of evidence floating around that suggests Toney wasn't at his best condition. Hopkins is a very good win and probably Jones' best but not the great fighter he would become.. He lacked the experience.
> 
> The point is that Jones' resume falls short compared to the TRUE greats. Roy would make my top 25-30. But not top 10. There are tons of guys that should rank over him. Like, how can you say Jones is better than Robinson, Ali, Duran, or Benny Leonard in any shape or form?


Around 20 or so people isn't "tons" mate, in the entire history of the sport.


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## O59

I wouldn't favor anybody to ever fight at super-middleweight versus Roy. I'd favor a _tiny_ fraction of people at middleweight and light-heavyweight.

He was amazing. Purely on the "eye test" I wouldn't argue if somebody said Roy ranked up there with the absolute best of them. Dominant as hell against generally good fighters also. He trounced two ATG's, one an unbeaten P4P'er, and the other a future record-breaking multiple-weight champ.

Even demolishing a guy like Montell Griffin in one round is sterling, and something you'd not see often at all.


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## tommygun711

O59 said:


> Around 20 or so people isn't "tons" mate, in the entire history of the sport.


I was being generous. Realistically I could come up with like 30 or 35 DEFINITE names, and then there are still more..

If you Jones' supporters really just care about his ability and how hes faster than everyone, His resume simply isnt good enough. There comes a time when you look at resume and FACT and throw aside all of the H2H bullshit. of course that factors in but Resume does more IMO. It's what he actually did, nevermind who he could potentially beat.


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## O59

tommygun711 said:


> I was being generous. Realistically I could come up with like 30 or 35 DEFINITE names, and then there are still more..
> 
> If you Jones' supporters really just care about his ability and how hes faster than everyone, His resume simply isnt good enough. There comes a time when you look at resume and FACT and throw aside all of the H2H bullshit. of course that factors in but Resume does more IMO. It's what he actually did, nevermind who he could potentially beat.


Name them then, if you've got the time.

Thirty-five definite fighters greater than Roy Jones Jr.


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## Royal-T-Bag

Jones might the GOAT talent wise. Resume isn't as good as some of the ATG's but not his fault that his era wasn't as stacked with talent as others. He beat the 2 best fighters around his weight class for his era with ease. He beat everyone he fought with ease. Jones deserves to be ranked in the top 25 ever.


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## Teeto

turbotime said:


> A+ footwork


strongly disagree with this

in terms of how effective he was though, in his prime he is one of the best fighters of all time, absolutely amazing, long live Roy

because you listed his attributes though I guess you meant he is the best fighter you've seen, whereas greatness concerns resume to a much larger extent, by my own personal definitions anyhow


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## turbotime

Teeto said:


> strongly disagree with this
> 
> in terms of how effective he was though, in his prime he is one of the best fighters of all time, absolutely amazing, long live Roy
> 
> because you listed his attributes though I guess you meant he is the best fighter you've seen, whereas greatness concerns resume to a much larger extent, by my own personal definitions anyhow


Yeah I meant talent wise I consider him the best I've seen based on what he was able to do, not resume wise.


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## Cableaddict

turbotime said:


> In a nutshell really. I probably overrate him in my ATG standings but some can say Whitaker get overrated in ATG standings as well.
> 
> But still an amazing fighter to watch.


I dunno if RJJ is an ATG or not, but no fighter ever blew me away like he did, in his prime. The way he moved in the ring, both offensively & defensively, he didn't even seem human.


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## turbotime

Cableaddict said:


> I dunno if RJJ is an ATG or not, but no fighter ever blew me away like he did, in his prime. The way he moved in the ring, both offensively & defensively, he didn't even seem human.


Super athletic but was effective and not lazy with it. It was amazing to watch. Even guys at the bar over the weekend watching UFC said they never saw anything like him in their lives (these were old guys too)


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## Teeto

turbotime said:


> Yeah I meant talent wise I consider him the best I've seen based on what he was able to do, not resume wise.


he was fuckin amazing, what a fighter


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## tommygun711

O59 said:


> Name them then, if you've got the time.
> 
> Thirty-five definite fighters greater than Roy Jones Jr.


dude really? Is that something you really disagree with? It would just be me naming a bunch of names with no explanation

not worth it for me.. like, greb, fitz, ricardo lopez, greb, ali, benny leonard, ray leonard, jack johnson, joe louis, duran, hagler, gavilan, hearns, lewis, barney ross, Tony Canzoneri, Moore, Wilde, Gans, Armstrong, Holyfield, etc.. there's 22. i can be bothered naming more


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## Snakefist

tommygun711 said:


> dude really? Is that something you really disagree with? It would just be me naming a bunch of names with no explanation
> 
> not worth it for me.. like, greb, fitz, ricardo lopez, greb, ali, benny leonard, ray leonard, jack johnson, joe louis, duran, hagler, gavilan, hearns, lewis, barney ross, Tony Canzoneri, Moore, Wilde, Gans, Armstrong, Holyfield, etc.. there's 22. i can be bothered naming more


Who has Ricardo lopez beaten that are better than RJJ best wins? This thread was about his ability, your happy ass jumps in and start talking about resume, as if that has anything to do with his ability. Most people have cans on their resume, Joe Louis had his bum of the month club -- if you want to get technical, should the thread starter changed the thread to, RJJ looked the best against cans then all the other ATG's who could be filmed, even though guys like Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Hill, Ruiz, Toney, Hopkins, Gonazelez, Hall, Harding, Sosa, Malinga, Castro, Vaca, old McCallum ... heck even guys like Lucas and Woods werent cans. Sure he has cans on his resume, but what fighter doesn't since the era of protecting prospects that started in the early 80's? Like wtf is your point? Few in boxing history has the unique blend of ability that jones had, jnes was perhaps the most physically gifted of all time, it doesn't mean he was the best, as others have resumes which simply can not be duplicated in our time, not with how boxing has changed. When ranking a person, ability and skill is put into question. RJJ is one of those type of talents that made him look like an underachiever, even though his resume is good -- only other fighters who get this type of treatment is tyson and Mayweather, due to their immense ability not matching with a equally immense resume.

For fuck sakes, can a person just make a thread admiring RJJ ability without it turning into some thread about resume, when his resume wasnt even bad, its a damn good resume, sure it falls short of the ATG's who are numbered above him, but i mean, for fuck sakes.


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## tommygun711

Snakefist said:


> Who has Ricardo lopez beaten that are better than RJJ best wins?
> 
> For fuck sakes, can a person just make a thread admiring RJJ ability without it turning into some thread about resume, when his resume wasnt even bad, its a damn good resume, sure it falls short of the ATG's who are numbered above him, but i mean, for fuck sakes.


If you guys want to overrate Jones based on skills & ability I can do the same with Ricardo. Ricardo beat the likes of Alvaraz, Sanchez and Kittikasem. Lowkey one of the best combination punchers the sport has ever seen. I also rate Ricardo's win over Vorapin very high.


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## O59

tommygun711 said:


> dude really? Is that something you really disagree with? It would just be me naming a bunch of names with no explanation
> 
> not worth it for me.. like, greb, fitz, ricardo lopez, greb, ali, benny leonard, ray leonard, jack johnson, joe louis, duran, hagler, gavilan, hearns, lewis, barney ross, Tony Canzoneri, Moore, Wilde, Gans, Armstrong, Holyfield, etc.. there's 22. i can be bothered naming more


I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm starting to not give a shit about hypothetical lists and numbers for where fighters are. If you think there are 35 men greater than Roy I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just interested in your opinion is all.

Guys like Lopez and Johnson aren't on Roy's level at all IMO. Lopez' competition could be dreadful even whilst he was a reigning champion. His best win was probably Rosendo Alvarez. He fought in a shitty era in a historically weak division. :conf Looks brilliant on film and extremely dominant but just never proved himself to be the amazing ATG plenty view him as. Just my opinion though.


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## Snakefist

tommygun711 said:


> If you guys want to overrate Jones based on skills & ability I can do the same with Ricardo. Ricardo beat the likes of Alvaraz, Sanchez and Kittikasem. Lowkey one of the best combination punchers the sport has ever seen. I also rate Ricardo's win over Vorapin very high.


Lopez often times gets the same treatment Jones does, based on the fact that his resume is not great. But it doesn't happen as much, primarily due to his attitude when he was champion and he was in a smaller division. How you can look at Lopez resume objectively and pick good wins, but not do the same for Jones, just stinks of subjective bias. One could argue that Lopez resume is loaded with mediocre opposition, where are the all time greats on his resume?

So you suggest that you can do the same with Lopez? I don't think anyone is really overrating Jones, they are just talking about his ability. Why do you feel the need to mention resume and cans, as if most fighters don't have cans on their resume? I could go on boxrec and name of cans for many ATG's, like what is the point -- they all have them.


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## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> dude really? Is that something you really disagree with? It would just be me naming a bunch of names with no explanation
> 
> not worth it for me.. like, greb, fitz, *ricardo lopez,* greb, ali, benny leonard, ray leonard, jack johnson, joe louis, duran, hagler, gavilan, hearns, lewis, barney ross, Tony Canzoneri, Moore, Wilde, Gans, Armstrong, Holyfield, etc.. there's 22. i can be bothered naming more


:eye


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## The Undefeated Gaul

Is Roy Jones better than this? 




:lucius


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## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> If you guys want to overrate Jones based on skills & ability I can do the same with Ricardo. Ricardo beat the likes of Alvaraz, Sanchez and Kittikasem. Lowkey one of the best combination punchers the sport has ever seen. I also rate Ricardo's win over Vorapin very high.


Lopez' best wins are about on par with Jones' 2nd tire of best wins, and Jones is also the greater H2H guy. Am I really reading this?


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## turbotime

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Is Roy Jones better than this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lucius


He'd have done the same to all those guys.


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## The Undefeated Gaul

turbotime said:


> He'd have done the same to all those guys.


Yup, completely agree...but not like that :hey


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## turbotime

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Yup, completely agree...but not like that :hey


:terry


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## Snakefist

Although Jones is criticized, I'd like to hear 5 fighters who started their career at 154 that could move up to heavy and beat a reigning champion with a credible belt who had beaten some good names at heavy, even if was dreadful to watch and dirtier than five dollar hookers panties? Actually to narrow this down, name me the guys from middleweight or SMW who could achieve this within jones time? I can only think of James Toney and maybe B-Hop and it just so happens that these were the guys who excelled the most from Jones time, WHO jones managed to defeat when they all were still young men in the game. 

No one disagrees about Jones rating, for me he is legit 30 - 40 ATG, around the 35 mark I'd like to hear the case for anyone put above him, who has greater achievements and ability than jones.


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## The Undefeated Gaul

Nevertheless, I have Roy Jones beating Monzon. 

Jones vs Hagler...leaning towards Jones but I'm really not too sure about this.


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## LittleRed

He feinted well. Kinda like a chicken.


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## turbotime

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Nevertheless, I have Roy Jones beating Monzon.
> 
> Jones vs Hagler...leaning towards Jones but I'm really not too sure about this.


Roy UD

The one I always flip flop on is Hagler/Monzon. I'd also pick Spinks to beat Jones, but that's at light heavy, Jones' 4th damned weight class.


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## The Undefeated Gaul

turbotime said:


> Roy UD
> 
> The one I always flip flop on is Hagler/Monzon. I'd also pick Spinks to beat Jones, but that's at light heavy, Jones' 4th damned weight class.


I think 5 times out of 10, Roy would beat Spinks. The other times, Spinks would land the money shot on Roy.


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## turbotime

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I think 5 times out of 10, Roy would beat Spinks. The other times, Spinks would land the money shot on Roy.


Definitely...in a one off fight I'd favour Spinks. I'm not a percentage guy but in a one fight go I'd peg Spinks the favorite.


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## Bill Butcher

On ability Roy looks on film up there as one of the best ever but thee best ?... nah, not for me. I think Robinson, Ray Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Sanchez, Ali of the 60s, Willie Pep & peak Chavez look better fighters, Roy Jones was a phenom though, no doubt about it.


----------



## Relentless

I agree with turbo when i used to watch prime roy i thought he was unbeatable but i believe most of his prime years were wasted fighting cans but then again there weren't really anyone significant for him to fight except for that german-polish stiff bum.


----------



## turbotime

Relentless said:


> I agree with turbo when i used to watch prime roy i thought he was unbeatable but i believe most of his prime years were wasted fighting cans but then again there weren't really anyone significant for him to fight except for that german-polish stiff bum.


Griffin (2x), Johnson, Toney, McCallum, Gonzalez were hardly cans. Too many people are remembering him for the Pazienza fight IMO which didnt need to happen, but it did. And Roy took care of business. That's how the elites deal with low level competition.


----------



## Bill Butcher

Sticking with fighters that have had their career in the coloured tv era & sticking with one name... I`ll say that Sugar Ray Leonard the welterweight looked flat out a better fighter on film than Roy Jones.


----------



## Brnxhands

Ruiz was no can either regardless of how much people clown him. For a lightheavy to move up into his first fight at heavyweight an beat john. Great win.


----------



## turbotime

Brnxhands said:


> Ruiz was no can either regardless of how much people clown him. For a lightheavy to move up into his first fight at heavyweight an beat john. Great win.


:yep


----------



## Hands of Iron

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Is Roy Jones better than this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lucius


:jjj


----------



## turbotime

:nono


----------



## Hands of Iron

God Damn I <3 SRR.


----------



## Hands of Iron

I like Roy too. I do.

I just can't love him the same way I do Robinson, Pea, JCC, Duran, Floyd.

EDIT: Tyson Out.


----------



## turbotime

Roy would never be beaten in his prime by someone like Duran. That'd be like Griffith jumping from 147 to 160 and taking Jones title.. Nope.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Roy would never be beaten in his prime *by someone like Duran.* That'd be like Griffith jumping from 147 to 160 and taking Jones title.. Nope.


Wot? :rofl

You know Duran didn't "jump" to fight Leonard. :verysad He was a full fledged welter, had shut out Palomino a year earlier at the weight. Was one of the greatest fighters ever too, ironically. :huh


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Wot? :rofl
> 
> You know Duran didn't "jump" to fight Leonard. :verysad He was a full fledged welter, had shut out Palomino a year earlier at the weight. Was one of the greatest fighters ever too, ironically. :huh


I know he didn't jump to fight Leonard. I'm just saying mainly for Bill Butcher, that Roy Jones as a fighter was more effective


----------



## Hands of Iron

Okay, but... "someone like Duran"? :verysad You mean stylistically? There's few fighters that were ever better in history than that Duran, circa 74-80. 

And Bill Butcher is very set in his stubborn ways. Looks like he barely found the place. :lol:


----------



## tliang1000

Hands of Iron said:


> :jjj


Great highlight! SRR's offense is frightening, and punches with a lot of intensity.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Okay, but... "someone like Duran"? :verysad You mean stylistically? There's few fighters that were ever better in history than that Duran, circa 74-80.
> 
> And Bill Butcher is very set in his stubborn ways. Looks like he barely found the place. :lol:


Bill doesn't even have Roy top 10 h2h...think Chavez is there though


----------



## tliang1000

Roy is the most athletic fighter i have ever seen but he is not the greatest i've seen. He feints extremely well and got insane speed and power.


----------



## Hands of Iron

tliang1000 said:


> Great highlight! SRR's offense is frightening, and punches with a lot of intensity.


He was a monster.



turbotime said:


> Bill doesn't even have Roy top 10 h2h...think Chavez is there though


Rates EM and MAB over Floyd/Pacquiao as well.

I thought you were talkin to me cuz it came right after the post. Never even said SRL was _better_ funny enough, just listing favorites and stuff. It just sounded like you were saying like, "Muhammad Ali would never lose to someone like Buster Douglas in his prime" <--- like that was Duran's level or something. :lol:


----------



## Sittin Sonny

rjjfan said:


> Toney was voted as P4P #1 [/URL] when RJJ fought him.





Dealt_with said:


> And Toney is an ATG, that can't be disputed. He was p4p #1 [/URL] when he was at super middle, he fought many top fighters all the way up to heavyweight.


"P4P #1 " only means he's the hot fighter at the moment - it's not an all-time rating.

Vernon Forrest was "P4P #1 " at one point too - is he an ATG as well?



Dealt_with said:


> Please, Jones did more damage to Hopkins in their second fight than vice versa, and that was a Roy who should've been retired for years.


The only "damage" done in that fight was by rabbit punching. In actual points, it was clear for Hopkins.


----------



## Sittin Sonny

Golovkingreatestever said:


> People who hate on ATGs crack me up.


This thread must be boring for you then.


----------



## Sittin Sonny

turbotime said:


> Roy would never be beaten in his prime by someone like Duran.


Why not? He managed to lose to a limited contender like Montell Griffin when in his prime.


----------



## Amsterdam

I would not favor any fighter over Jones at his best. I wish his resume was a bit deeper, but that's also on a lot of his prospective opponents not wanting to step up.


----------



## Golovkingreatestever

Sittin Sonny said:


> This thread must be boring for you then.


Please you problably eat up hype jobs while hating on Roy.


----------



## Golovkingreatestever

Sittin Sonny said:


> Why not? He managed to lose to a limited contender like Montell Griffin when in his prime.


Yeah because that is the whole story.


----------



## Dealt_with

Sittin Sonny said:


> "P4P #1 " only means he's the hot fighter at the moment - it's not an all-time rating.
> 
> Vernon Forrest was "P4P #1 " at one point too - is he an ATG as well?
> 
> The only "damage" done in that fight was by rabbit punching. In actual points, it was clear for Hopkins.


My point was that he was considered the best in boxing, and then continued to fight and beat top fighters all the way up to heavyweight.
Hopkins didn't like what old RJJ was doing, you had the dirtiest fighter in the sport crying his eyes out to get a rest. Roy always had his number and a psychological edge over him.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Hmm..I do tend to agree that Ali of the 60's probably more impressive. 
Salvador Sanchez without a doubt is up there. The guy has Mayweather abilities in terms of his adaptability, and is just unstoppable.

My top 5 looks something like..
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sugar Ray Leonard
Ali of 60's
Roy Jones Jr 
Salvador Sanchez


----------



## Bill Butcher

turbotime said:


> I know he didn't jump to fight Leonard. I'm just saying mainly for Bill Butcher, that Roy Jones as a fighter was more effective


Leonard was tested in every way & came through with flying colours using multiple styles effectively vs some of the best fighters that ever lived, he looked more complete & yes, better than Roy Jones.


----------



## sugarshane_24

we may never see another fighter that fast. one of the truly rare combination of blazing speed and crippling power. the guy can throw 6 punches in a bat of an eye, or 5 left hooks when he wants to, and no one can do shit about it.


----------



## Bill Butcher

turbotime said:


> Roy would never be beaten in his prime by someone like Duran. That'd be like Griffith jumping from 147 to 160 and taking Jones title.. Nope.


Roy was never in there with anyone as good as a Montreal Duran, so to say Roy would never lose to a fighter like Duran as if Duran is some B level fighter is baffling, personally I think Roy handles a prime Duran worse than Leonard because he doesn`t have the toughness of Leonard but we`ll never know.


----------



## Bill Butcher

turbotime said:


> Bill doesn't even have Roy top 10 h2h...think Chavez is there though


By H2H I`m guessing you mean personal fantasy of how I think he`d do at his best vs other fighters of similar size ?... Mmmm... never did such a list, pretty sure Roy would be just outside or in the lower end of the top 10, I do rank him highly ability wise, I`m just more impressed by other fighters, Chavez might get in there too ahead of Roy, its difficult to compare two men with such different fighting styles as JCC & RJJ but overall I was a bit more impressed by Chavez peak performances than Roy`s. Not a great deal in it though. As far as greatness through an entire career then Chavez takes it comfortably IMO.


----------



## Bill Butcher

Hands of Iron said:


> Rates EM and MAB over Floyd/Pacquiao as well.


Yep, sure do. Morales & Barrera did it exactly as it should be done when it mattered most, when they were at their best in their mid 20s the only two that could touch them was each other, and they fought in the toughest divisions in boxing, when EM, MAB, Pac, JMM & Floyd were all in their physical primes Floyd was never regarded any better p4p than EM or MAB & JMM & Pac were way below, it was only the decline of EM & MAB that allowed these guys to keep going when they were done, largely as I already said because EM & MAB did everything they were supposed to do when it mattered most, in their physical prime. Floyd & Pac flat out refused to fight each other in one of the biggest fights of all time, I can never put men like that over real ring legends like Morales or Barrera.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

lol This whole 'Montreal Duran' thing is fucked up. 

Roy looks more impressive than prime Duran, that's my honest view. 

Morales and Barrera above Pac and Floyd is ridiculous, I'm going to be contently ignorant of any arguments why Morales/Barrera are better H2H than Pac and Floyd..even though Morales is one of my top 5 favourite fighters ever.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

sugarshane_24 said:


> we may never see another fighter that fast. one of the truly rare combination of blazing speed and crippling power. the guy can throw 6 punches in a bat of an eye, or 5 left hooks when he wants to, and no one can do shit about it.


This perfectly sums up prime Roy! :good


----------



## Bill Butcher

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> lol This whole 'Montreal Duran' thing is fucked up.
> 
> Roy looks more impressive than prime Duran, that's my honest view.
> 
> Morales and Barrera above Pac and Floyd is ridiculous, I'm going to be contently ignorant of any arguments why Morales/Barrera are better H2H than Pac and Floyd..even though Morales is one of my top 5 favourite fighters ever.


I think Duran looks better than Roy but like you say, to each our own there. I can also accept a Floyd H2H argument over EM & MAB as he has been extremely dominant throughout his career, but Pacquiao has shown his limitations technically on a number of occasions & he lost to the best version of Morales he ever fought (which was still quite a bit off the best version of Morales there ever was.) I don`t want this to drift off topic though so back on topic.... Ray Leonard looked better than Roy Jones on film :nod


----------



## Dealt_with

Bill Butcher said:


> I think Duran looks better than Roy but like you say, to each our own there. I can also accept a Floyd H2H argument over EM & MAB as he has been extremely dominant throughout his career, but Pacquiao has shown his limitations technically on a number of occasions & he lost to the best version of Morales he ever fought (which was still quite a bit off the best version of Morales there ever was.) I don`t want this to drift off topic though so back on topic.... Ray Leonard looked better than Roy Jones on film :nod


Leonard is one of the only ones who can actually come close to comparing.... Duran certainly not.


----------



## LuckyLuke

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf
> 
> [video] Wow. That was on an Oscar undercard actually and a horrific KO[/video]


Is this a joke?


----------



## Golovkingreatestever

LuckyLuke said:


> Is this a joke?


Wait you hate Roy Jones while loving Golovkin? I wonder why.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Bill Butcher said:


> I think Duran looks better than Roy but like you say, to each our own there. I can also accept a Floyd H2H argument over EM & MAB as he has been extremely dominant throughout his career, but Pacquiao has shown his limitations technically on a number of occasions & he lost to the best version of Morales he ever fought (which was still quite a bit off the best version of Morales there ever was.) I don`t want this to drift off topic though so back on topic.... Ray Leonard looked better than Roy Jones on film :nod


Yup Leonard takes it for me too. :nod

Morales was just too versatile for Pacman, even though he was past prime and didn't really have the same level of fight him in anymore.


----------



## Snakefist

Bill Butcher said:


> Roy was never in there with anyone as good as a Montreal Duran, so to say Roy would never lose to a fighter like Duran as if Duran is some B level fighter is baffling, personally I think Roy handles a prime Duran worse than Leonard because he doesn`t have the toughness of Leonard but we`ll never know.


RJJ would never fight Duran the same way SRL was, SRL, although duran did enough to make him fight that way, fought Duran's fight when he didn't have too. He figured he was the bigger man and could do it. Styles makes fights and RJJ is far too big for Duran, even though Duran went on to beat Barkley and had a good fight with Haglar, RJJ has fought all the way up to heavy. I mean, h2h I don't know who I would favor. A lot of Duran's success in the first fight, wasn't just what Duran was doing, was also due to how SRL fought him.... sure SRL fought as a puncher then boxer a lot of the time, but he also had the capability to get on his toes and box his ass off. He fought Duran's fight, as Duran got into his head severely and SRL was buying into the fact that duran was moving up in weight and he would be the stronger guy. I think SRL would've beat Duran the first time around, had he not fought Durans fight. And of course people never mentions "no mas' as if it means nothing. Duran was being totally outboxed, and he quit because SRL was putting on a boxing exhibition.

The fight wasnt a blow out either, Duran was the clear winner but it was sort of close as well, not as if SRL just got his ass beat or something. Butcher I think you are underrating RJJ ability. You damn right roy would have trouble with prime duran prime for prime, but you have to be really blind if you imagine that RJJ would fight duran like SRL did the first fight... hell even SRL didnt do that again. If RJJ fought durans fight he suffers a worst beating than SRL did, Im just basing this on him never having to dig super deep in his prime in a fight, only when he was past prime against Tarver -- we saw in the Tarver fight that RJJ had heart and could dig deep to get the victory. But is it RJJ fought that fellow ATG's Toney and B-Hop couldnt make him dig deep? Why is this seen as a negative, that he was so dominating, that even two best fighters of his area couldnt bring him into deep waters?

Duran in Montreal is probably the best Duran the world has ever seen, he was immaculate... defense amazing, power, speed, endurance, skill, that was peak. RJJ peak performance was against Toney -- absolutely immaculate too, speed, timing, legs, movement, reflexes, etc. Honestly we have seen how Duran has performed against guys who have used their boxing ability to fight him. He loss to most of the people who actually boxed him... although I can't forget about deJesus and Buchanan, but man he was dirty as hell in the Buchanan bout. But the fact that he could be mildy outboxed has to be taken into consideration as much as the unknown about RJJ toughness in his prime -- but my thoughts is RJJ has his track shoes on, and boxes from a distance.

I don't think ATG's would be a walk in the park for each other.


----------



## turbotime

Bill Butcher said:


> Roy was never in there with anyone as good as a Montreal Duran, so to say Roy would never lose to a fighter like Duran as if Duran is some B level fighter is baffling, personally I think Roy handles a prime Duran worse than Leonard because he doesn`t have the toughness of Leonard but we`ll never know.


This Montreal Duran crap needs to stop. No welterweight is moving up and beating Jones like Duran did Leonard.


----------



## Bill Butcher

Dealt_with said:


> Leonard is one of the only ones who can actually come close to comparing.... Duran certainly not.


Duran did lots of technical things in there both defensively and offensively that Roy could only dream, its clear to me that Duran looked a better fighter, I`m not mesmerised by Jones speed & athleticism to the point were I think he`s superman like some do, Duran looked a better fighter. Duran from 72-80 looked better than Roy Jones from anywhere-anywhere IMO.


----------



## Bill Butcher

Snakefist said:


> RJJ would never fight Duran the same way SRL was, SRL, although duran did enough to make him fight that way, fought Duran's fight when he didn't have too. He figured he was the bigger man and could do it. Styles makes fights and RJJ is far too big for Duran, even though Duran went on to beat Barkley and had a good fight with Haglar, RJJ has fought all the way up to heavy. I mean, h2h I don't know who I would favor. A lot of Duran's success in the first fight, wasn't just what Duran was doing, was also due to how SRL fought him.... sure SRL fought as a puncher then boxer a lot of the time, but he also had the capability to get on his toes and box his ass off. He fought Duran's fight, as Duran got into his head severely and SRL was buying into the fact that duran was moving up in weight and he would be the stronger guy. I think SRL would've beat Duran the first time around, had he not fought Durans fight. And of course people never mentions "no mas' as if it means nothing. Duran was being totally outboxed, and he quit because SRL was putting on a boxing exhibition.
> 
> The fight wasnt a blow out either, Duran was the clear winner but it was sort of close as well, not as if SRL just got his ass beat or something. Butcher I think you are underrating RJJ ability. You damn right roy would have trouble with prime duran prime for prime, but you have to be really blind if you imagine that RJJ would fight duran like SRL did the first fight... hell even SRL didnt do that again. If RJJ fought durans fight he suffers a worst beating than SRL did, Im just basing this on him never having to dig super deep in his prime in a fight, only when he was past prime against Tarver -- we saw in the Tarver fight that RJJ had heart and could dig deep to get the victory. But is it RJJ fought that fellow ATG's Toney and B-Hop couldnt make him dig deep? Why is this seen as a negative, that he was so dominating, that even two best fighters of his area couldnt bring him into deep waters?
> 
> Duran in Montreal is probably the best Duran the world has ever seen, he was immaculate... defense amazing, power, speed, endurance, skill, that was peak. RJJ peak performance was against Toney -- absolutely immaculate too, speed, timing, legs, movement, reflexes, etc. Honestly we have seen how Duran has performed against guys who have used their boxing ability to fight him. He loss to most of the people who actually boxed him... although I can't forget about deJesus and Buchanan, but man he was dirty as hell in the Buchanan bout. But the fact that he could be mildy outboxed has to be taken into consideration as much as the unknown about RJJ toughness in his prime -- but my thoughts is RJJ has his track shoes on, and boxes from a distance.
> 
> I don't think ATG's would be a walk in the park for each other.


I agree with most of what you say, but Duran was not being totally outboxed in the Leonard rematch, that was shaping up to be a really great fight & looked to be a dead cert to go all the way in probably a close decision, likely in Leonard`s favour as he was slightly (not by a lot as the myth goes) ahead in the scoring before Duran quit. The reason it was SUCH a shock when Duran quit was because neither man was really dominating the fight, must have been the Leonard showboating rather than the punishment that made Duran walk away because I never saw any real damage by either man through 7 & half rounds.


----------



## Vic

Sugar Ray Leonard impresses me more on film than Roy. SAme with others, like Chavez.


----------



## TFG

Even under the eye test Jones isn't the best ever. Fighters like SRR, SRL and Muhammed Ali used to do exactly what Jones used to do, whilst looking just as impressive. The difference is, they also done it against ATG opposition.


----------



## Bill Butcher

turbotime said:


> This Montreal Duran crap needs to stop. No welterweight is moving up and beating Jones like Duran did Leonard.


How do you know this for sure ?...Roy never faced such an obstacle as the Duran Leonard faced that night. Suppose the welterweight Ray Robinson stepped up to middleweight to fight Roy Jones, you don`t think the experience as well as the overall ability of Robinson has _any _chance of overcoming the size advantage held by Roy Jones ?


----------



## turbotime

Bill Butcher said:


> How do you know this for sure ?...Roy never faced such an obstacle as the Duran Leonard faced that night. Suppose the welterweight Ray Robinson stepped up to middleweight to fight Roy Jones, you don`t think the experience as well as the overall ability of Robinson has _any _chance of overcoming the size advantage held by Roy Jones ?


Nah, I don't think so.


----------



## tliang1000

IMO, i think Jones is the most naturally talented boxer but definitely not the most skilled.


----------



## Snakefist

Bill Butcher said:


> Duran did lots of technical things in there both defensively and offensively that Roy could only dream, its clear to me that Duran looked a better fighter, I`m not mesmerised by Jones speed & athleticism to the point were I think he`s superman like some do, Duran looked a better fighter. Duran from 72-80 looked better than Roy Jones from anywhere-anywhere IMO.


Duran's defense, was perhaps, one of his greatest assets -- at least to me, his slipping, turning with punches, and his stance gave a false target and helped to move his offensive. Duran is quite technical.

But if you are a real fan of the intricacies of boxing, then you will know RJJ used technique as well and had great boxing mind. you cant set up traps and do what rjj was able to off of pure speed/athleticism. Maybe you can return to some of Jones big fights and see what he did in the ring or how he adapted and figured out his opponents, look at what he did in the harding fight.

You seem to know boxing, hopefully you dont think so lowly of Jones? Jones only problem was that he relied too much on his reflexes, he said though that for him, he had to fight that way or boxing would not be fun for him. he made a conscious decision.


----------



## LuckyLuke

Golovkingreatestever said:


> Wait you hate Roy Jones while loving Golovkin? I wonder why.


Please ban this guy.
Its oneshot.


----------



## Snakefist

Bill Butcher said:


> How do you know this for sure ?...Roy never faced such an obstacle as the Duran Leonard faced that night. Suppose the welterweight Ray Robinson stepped up to middleweight to fight Roy Jones, you don`t think the experience as well as the overall ability of Robinson has _any _chance of overcoming the size advantage held by Roy Jones ?


Duran was much smaller than Robinson and Robinson would be Jones height, Robinson, even though somewhat past prime, basically beat Joey Maxim for the LHW title, only fell short due to exhaustion via the heat. Robinson is also the prototype that fighters like Ali, SRL, hell even RJJ are either built from, or are indirectly molded by. Sometimes Robinson broke the rules of boxing, like Jones and young Mayweather used too... lead with leaping left hooks, triple sometimes, lead with right hands, did the rope-a-dope before Ali did, lead with body shots, etc. Without Robinson no Ali, no SRL, no RJJ.

Duran is top ten in most ATG list, to me SRL was actually the better fighter and has the better wins. Duran started his pro-career at lightweight... it is at lightweight where he gets his ATG status firstly, he never had to move up and do what he did, he was already, and rightfully so, the best lightweight that ever lived. That is his prime weight -- RJJ prime weight is SMW, that was his absolute peak. Duran was far too small to be favored against Jones. This is just inconceivable, honestly. His victory over barkley is contested, some say barkley was robbed, I dont... but barkley was crude and really got fame for having Hearns number. But if we take it prime for prime, RJJ is simply too big for duran. p4p, discounting weight, then its an interesting fight.


----------



## Snakefist

TFG said:


> Even under the eye test Jones isn't the best ever. Fighters like SRR, SRL and Muhammed Ali used to do exactly what Jones used to do, whilst looking just as impressive. The difference is, they also done it against ATG opposition.


SRL, to his credit, fought some great comp, and he struggled everytime against the best. He had moments of brilliance, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here. He had to go through hell to beat hearns, Haglar, and Duran. That's actually to his credit. There are only two fights I can think of where SRL looked dominate as hell against ATG's who were not past prime... no mas duran and Benitez.

SRR, I have no words for, this guy looked brilliant against Lamotta and others, and he wasnt even in his peak.

Ali, yeah I can see that. amazing.

RJJ looked pretty damn dominate and great against the two ATG's he went against. Have you seen his performance against Toney? Yeah people will mention about the weight toney had to lose, toney's weight has always been a problems at MW and SMW. This is the same bullshit people talk when anyone loses, there is always some problem -- like how people discredit the schooling SRL gave Duran in he second fight... had SRL fought duran's fight he wouldve loss again -- in the sameway if RJJ just fought in the pocket with Toney he wouldve been broken down. I don't know what people want from Jones, should he have fought Toney's fight and been KO'd? Not be so quick with B-hop, and allow him to land more right hands? Maybe hill, who I think should be in the HOF, should have made a deal with Jones, not to ko him with a bodyshot. If you look at hill, who has done what Jones did?


----------



## TFG

Snakefist said:


> SRL, to his credit, fought some great comp, and he struggled everytime against the best. He had moments of brilliance, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here. He had to go through hell to beat hearns, Haglar, and Duran. That's actually to his credit. There are only two fights I can think of where SRL looked dominate as hell against ATG's who were not past prime... no mas duran and Benitez.
> 
> SRR, I have no words for, this guy looked brilliant against Lamotta and others, and he wasnt even in his peak.
> 
> Ali, yeah I can see that. amazing.
> 
> RJJ looked pretty damn dominate and great against the two ATG's he went against. Have you seen his performance against Toney? Yeah people will mention about the weight toney had to lose, toney's weight has always been a problems at MW and SMW. This is the same bullshit people talk when anyone loses, there is always some problem -- like how people discredit the schooling SRL gave Duran in he second fight... had SRL fought duran's fight he wouldve loss again -- in the sameway if RJJ just fought in the pocket with Toney he wouldve been broken down.


That's what happens when you fight the best, are you seriously suggesting RJJ would of walked through the likes of Hagler without a single struggle? That doesn't happen, it's why these fighters are great fighters, they can put up a fight with anyone.

It sounds great saying RJJ was dominant against two ATG's, but if we look into it a bit further, it's not all that great. Hopkins wasn't an ATG at the time, he was inexperienced and no where near his best. BHOP is a fighter who has learnt his trade on the job and picked up his skills through experience. He didn't have the same mental tools back then that he had when he fought the likes of Trinidad. That Hopkins versus Jones is a different fight. I'd still probably back Jones but it's a close fight, just like Leonard/Hagler/Hearns were all close fights.

Toney is his stand out win, but lets not beat around the bush, he wasn't in great shape. You can't just pass it off by saying "there's always a problem". Some problems are more clear and meaningful than others. Toney wasn't great at the weight and he wasn't in the best condition, that's some that we know, it's not an excuse, it's just a fact that has to be considered.


----------



## Snakefist

-+


TFG said:


> That's what happens when you fight the best, are you seriously suggesting RJJ would of walked through the likes of Hagler without a single struggle? That doesn't happen, it's why these fighters are great fighters, they can put up a fight with anyone.


I never suggested that. You said THEY looked just as impressive against ATG opposition, I was suggesting that SRL struggled like crazy and did not dominate these guys like he would a can or a C or B level fighter. This is a fact... whether RJJ would is to be seen and all imagination. Haglar would give Jones hell and Jones would probably lose at 160 to Haglar -- SRL fought a certain way to simply look like he beat haglar -- I think SRL won though. I don't consider that Jones prime weight.



> It sounds great saying RJJ was dominant against two ATG's, but if we look into it a bit further, it's not all that great. Hopkins wasn't an ATG at the time, he was inexperienced and no where near his best. BHOP is a fighter who has learnt his trade on the job and picked up his skills through experience. He didn't have the same mental tools back then that he had when he fought the likes of Trinidad. That Hopkins versus Jones is a different fight. I'd still probably back Jones but it's a close fight, just like Leonard/Hagler/Hearns were all close fights.


And here we go. Lets diminish Jones victory over Hopkins by saying he was inexperienced and nowhere near his best. Both Jones and Hopkins were, Hopkins while lacking the experience at that time, had a greater physical prowess then -- in short Hopkins was KOing people. Jones at that time wasnt the best he could be either. Does the fact that both guys, although physically prime, but not absolute peak, diminishes the victory?? Jones is the only person to moderately dominate Hopkins with a broken hand. Who has come close dominating hopkins??? A fighter is no longer green when they are fighting for a legitimate title and are 28 years old and been a pro for 5 years. How long was other ATG's in the fight game until they won their titles??? Is it RJJ fault that the public didn't recognize Hopkins much, at the time, the fight was billed as two up and coming fighters, fighting for a vacant title. They both were the best fighters at their division at the time. Hopkins has always been great, but was never given public attention and never given accolades until he beat Trinidad, or a media darling/popular fighter, meanwhile he was decimating top MW's since 95 to the very least. But he had been that years before tito, he was that good since since 94, definitely 95 but during this time, like I said, he had far more physical prowess and aggression and was KOing dudes left and right.

Let's also diminish Sanchez's victory over nelson, because nelson wasnt known at the time, and a fighter needs media to notice them to be considered great.



> Toney is his stand out win, but lets not beat around the bush, he wasn't in great shape. You can't just pass it off by saying "there's always a problem". Some problems are more clear and meaningful than others. Toney wasn't great at the weight and he wasn't in the best condition, that's some that we know, it's not an excuse, it's just a fact that has to be considered.


There is always a problem when a guy loses, there is always some excuse. Toney has always had to lose a lot of weight inbetween fights, its what he does. He was killing himself to make MW and SMW, even in some of greatest performances. This is just one of the intangibles of his career, he liked to indulge on food. The same could be said for guys like Bowe, maybe we should take away from Holyfields lone win and say, well bowe ate too much or take away from bowes win and say well holyfield was having heart problems. Lets take away from Marquez win over pac, pac wasnt doing what his conditioning coach said, and was having family issues. What about no mas durans, he was having cramps, wasnt training, and had to lose too much weight... lots of excuses there. He also wasnt training when he fought Hearns... and got KO'd, you know? I can mention this over and over again. Toney always had difficulty making weight MW and SMW... what really happened was Toney underestimated Jones and he has no one to blame but himself.


----------



## Brnxhands

Damn you guys are writing whole essays about this


----------



## BUMPY

Fantastic ability.


----------



## Snakefist

....


----------



## Snakefist

Brnxhands said:


> Damn you guys are writing whole essays about this


I aint got nothing to do and havent debated about boxing in a couple of years. lol truth is everyone has their opinion and bias, and everyone either diminishes someones competition or overrates it. Everytime a fighter loses they always have some huge excuse about training camp, outside issues, or everything else under the moon, then just to say they lose, case closed. Jones had suffered broken hands, broken wrist, etc before fights. Toney had work ethnic problems, always had and always will, doesnt diminish the fact that he was absolutely dominated.


----------



## TFG

Snakefist said:


> -+
> 
> I never suggested that. You said THEY looked just as impressive against ATG opposition, I was suggesting that SRL struggled like crazy and did not dominate these guys like he would a can or a C or B level fighter. This is a fact... whether RJJ would is to be seen and all imagination. Haglar would give Jones hell and Jones would probably lose at 160 to Haglar -- SRL fought a certain way to simply look like he beat haglar -- I think SRL won though. I don't consider that Jones prime weight.
> 
> And here we go. Lets diminish Jones victory over Hopkins by saying he was inexperienced and nowhere near his best. Both Jones and Hopkins were, Hopkins while lacking the experience at that time, had a greater physical prowess then -- in short Hopkins was KOing people. Jones at that time wasnt the best he could be either. Does the fact that both guys, although physically prime, but not absolute peak, diminishes the victory?? Jones is the only person to moderately dominate Hopkins with a broken hand. Who has come close dominating hopkins??? A fighter is no longer green when they are fighting for a legitimate title and are 28 years old and been a pro for 5 years. How long was other ATG's in the fight game until they won their titles??? Is it RJJ fault that the public didn't recognize Hopkins much, at the time, the fight was billed as two up and coming fighters, fighting for a vacant title. They both were the best fighters at their division at the time. Hopkins has always been great, but was never given public attention and never given accolades until he beat Trinidad. But he had been that years before that, he was that good since since 94, definitely 95 but during this time, like I said, he had far more physical prowess and aggression and was KOing dudes left and right.
> 
> Let's also diminish Sanchez's victory over nelson, because nelson wasnt known at the time, and a fighter needs media to notice them to be considered prime or great.
> 
> There is always a problem when a guy loses, there is always some excuse. Toney has always had to lose a lot of weight inbetween fights, its what he does. He was killing himself to make MW and SMW, even in some of greatest performances. This is just one of the intangibles of his career, he liked to indulge on food. The same could be said for guys like Bowe, maybe we should take away from Holyfields lone win and say, well bowe ate too much or take away from bowes win and say well holyfield was having heart problems. Lets take away from Marquez win over pac, pac wasnt doing what his conditioning coach said, and was having family issues. What about no mas durans, he was having cramps, wasnt training, and had to lose too much weight... lots of excuses there. He also wasnt training when he fought Hearns... and got KO'd, you know? I can mention this over and over again. Toney always had difficulty making weight MW and SMW... what really happened was Toney underestimated Jones and he has no one to blame but himself.


1. I wasn't specifically suggesting that the likes of Leonard dominated ATG opposition as much as they did cans, that of course would never be the case. My point of "they also done it against ATG opposition" was that a point that they consistently beat ATG fighters whilst still looking great. Just because Leonard struggled with Hearns doesn't mean he never fought a great fight, just like it doesn't mean he never fought a great fight when he out pointed Hagler. The standards rise along with the opposition. The mere fact he could be beat such opposition regularly is a testament to how great he and the others are. Jones never at any point showed he could beat prime ATG opposition regularly.

2. This shouldn't be difficult to understand, but one thing that is difficult to understand is that quite a few many people can't seem to get their heads around the fact that some fighters mature differently, that some fighters improve at a different pace, that some fighters primes are at different stages of their career. It is not as simple as saying "They were both inexperienced". That kind of lineal understanding of the fight is just ignorant to the wider picture.

- Jones may have been inexperienced, but he didn't rely on the mental side of his game as much as Hopkins did. BHOP was never as talented as Jones, but eventually he did end up being smarter. When they both fought each other for the first time, Hopkins didn't have the same kind of ring IQ he had when they fought the second time. Jones still had the great speed and reflexes, being a younger fighter benefited Jones, it did not benefit Hopkins. To put it plainly, Hopkins was much further out of his prime than Jones was. I'm not saying Jones didn't improve from that point on but you cannot deny that Hopkins improved as a fighter A LOT more. He was not an ATG fighter when Jones beat him, he wasn't the same fighter who knocked out Glen Johnson and beat up Trinidad.

- Jones was considered a top P4P fighter when they both met, Hopkins was no where near that. It was well documented how much Hopkins improved from that point onwards. He become a much more defensively responsible fighter, picking up the tricks of the trade, learning his craft improving gradually. Here are a couple of quotes to back up what I am saying, one from Bert Sugar and one from Shane Mosley.



> "The late, great boxing historian Bert Sugar said during a TV broadcast that "younger, stronger fighters would try to bull rush Hopkins only to find that he could tie them up tighter than Willie Nelson's headband." He developed into a superb defensive fighter; some compared to him to "The Mongoose" himself, Archie Moore."





> "Younger guys would think that an old boxer must be an easy target," Sugar said, "Only to find out when they stood in front of him they couldn't hit him with a handful of stones."


- In his prime Hopkins had both the knockout power you're talking about and the ring smarts, he had the right balance. In the first fight with Jones he hadn't developed that equilibrium yet, he was still improving the mental part of his game, which is by far and away his strongest and most important asset. Jones already had his strongest and most important assets, he didn't have to be 10x smarter than his opposition. It's not a case at all of Hopkins not being recognized, it was a case of Hopkins not being as good as he was in his prime. You've got to understand that fighters come in lots of different forms and they are all different, but when it comes to BHOP, he is very different. Many people consider Hopkins prime to be around the Trinidad fight when he was 36 years old. That's right, 36. That should tell you that the guys developed differently to most fighters, he got better as he got older, he got better as his mind got smarter. The Jones fight was 8 whole years out of his prime, that's not due to lack of recognition, it's due to a learning process that saw him become a great fighter. He wasn't born a great fighter and he certainly wasn't blessed with the kind of tangible talent that RJJ was blessed with. Everything he has today, he earned through hard work and devotion to the sport. Comparatively, you could say Jones was in his prime around 1995, a whole two years after the Hopkins fight.

- It's not a case of discrediting the win, it's a case of looking at it realistically. If Jones would of beaten Hopkins in 2001 would it of been a better win? Yes of course, and that is the key here. Jones beat him when he was far from his best. Hopkins wasn't an ATG quality fighter when he fought him, he wouldn't of beaten other ATG's, he wouldn't of beaten the guys he went on to beat in his prime. This is evidenced by the fact he got dropped three times and forced into a draw by Mercado, a fighter he would of destroyed in his prime and a fighter he did destroy a year later when he adapted and become more experienced.

3. Toney's problems were relevant and important, if you don't believe that then fair enough, but many people including my self do believe that a victory over a 168lbs James Toney who was never that great at the weight, isn't as great as it sounds, given the weight problems and the fact it wasn't at his best weight. It's still a VERY good win, but you can't just say Jones dominated ATG James Toney without mentioning the stipulations around that victory. That isn't how it works.


----------



## JeffJoiner

Physically, the greatest I've ever seen as well. His combination of speed, power, and reflexes were unworldly. In fantasy H2H matchups, he has those attributes over everybody.

I can't really fault Joe Cal for looking at him and saying "I know my limitations."


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## Mal

Jones Jr. is also one of the most incredible boxers I have seen. His speed, athleticism, and again...his speed, here otherworldly!!! As someone stated earlier in this thread, James Toney's comparison to Warner is a very good one. Hot and cold, with a long stretch of luke warm.

But if Kurt Warner played as great as Joe Montana, then the comparison would be complete! That's how good Toney was when he was "on". His last great fight vs. Jirov was an amazing performance. When Jones Jr. fought James Toney, this was THE fight to watch at the time. And James Toney was rightfully atop most P4P lists. And as we all know, Jones Jr. made the best boxer in the world look like a rank amateur.


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## Mal

Sittin Sonny said:


> Why not? He managed to lose to a limited contender like Montell Griffin when in his prime.


Do you really honestly Montel Griffin was nothing more then a limited contender? :huh Statements like this, in my overly humble opinion, are serious flags for me. Because of this statement, I probably will assume you are wrong more often then not. I'm not saying you have to love Griffin, or even be a fan of his, but to say he was a limited contender pretty much DQ's you from realistic discussion. No offense meant if received.


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## Yungboy

@Bogotazo, yeah, people say Roy, fell off because he wasn't fundamentally sound. He was only athletic fighter, that's bullshit. Roy jones was a very intelligent fighter.


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## Luf

Jones is in my top 3. Behind only Robinson and Whittaker. A supremely great talent. Maybe there are those who were as talented without the benefit of being filmed but that's a question never to be answered I'm afraid.


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## turbotime

Mal said:


> Do you really honestly Montel Griffin was nothing more then a limited contender? :huh Statements like this, in my overly humble opinion, are serious flags for me. Because of this statement, I probably will assume you are wrong more often then not. I'm not saying you have to love Griffin, or even be a fan of his, but to say he was a limited contender pretty much DQ's you from realistic discussion. No offense meant if received.


Wow :lol: I missed that.


----------



## Bogotazo

Yungboy said:


> @Bogotazo, yeah, people say Roy, fell off because he wasn't fundamentally sound. He was only athletic fighter, that's bullshit. Roy jones was a very intelligent fighter.


Yup. There's more to proper technique and skillful versatility than holding your hands up in front of your face.


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## Bill Butcher

Snakefist said:


> Duran was much smaller than Robinson and Robinson would be Jones height, Robinson, even though somewhat past prime, basically beat Joey Maxim for the LHW title, only fell short due to exhaustion via the heat. Robinson is also the prototype that fighters like Ali, SRL, hell even RJJ are either built from, or are indirectly molded by. Sometimes Robinson broke the rules of boxing, like Jones and young Mayweather used too... lead with leaping left hooks, triple sometimes, lead with right hands, did the rope-a-dope before Ali did, lead with body shots, etc. Without Robinson no Ali, no SRL, no RJJ.
> 
> Duran is top ten in most ATG list, to me SRL was actually the better fighter and has the better wins. Duran started his pro-career at lightweight... it is at lightweight where he gets his ATG status firstly, he never had to move up and do what he did, he was already, and rightfully so, the best lightweight that ever lived. That is his prime weight -- RJJ prime weight is SMW, that was his absolute peak. Duran was far too small to be favored against Jones. This is just inconceivable, honestly. His victory over barkley is contested, some say barkley was robbed, I dont... but barkley was crude and really got fame for having Hearns number. But if we take it prime for prime, RJJ is simply too big for duran. p4p, discounting weight, then its an interesting fight.


I agree with you that Duran is too small for Jones in a H2H fight, I was meaning p4p when I said Duran was the better fighter.


----------



## Bill Butcher

Luf said:


> Jones is in my top 3. Behind only Robinson and Whittaker. A supremely great talent. Maybe there are those who were as talented without the benefit of being filmed but that's a question never to be answered I'm afraid.


Yeah, Robinson & Whitaker are two of the few that look better than Jones, as does Sugar Ray Leonard the welterweight.


----------



## Snakefist

TFG said:


> 1. I wasn't specifically suggesting that the likes of Leonard dominated ATG opposition as much as they did cans, that of course would never be the case. My point of "they also done it against ATG opposition" was that a point that they consistently beat ATG fighters whilst still looking great. Just because Leonard struggled with Hearns doesn't mean he never fought a great fight, just like it doesn't mean he never fought a great fight when he out pointed Hagler. The standards rise along with the opposition. The mere fact he could be beat such opposition regularly is a testament to how great he and the others are. Jones never at any point showed he could beat prime ATG opposition regularly.


I get what you said. I didn't agree with the SRL one though. I am not critical of him, but just being honest. But I get your point.



> 2. This shouldn't be difficult to understand, but one thing that is difficult to understand is that quite a few many people can't seem to get their heads around the fact that some fighters mature differently, that some fighters improve at a different pace, that some fighters primes are at different stages of their career. It is not as simple as saying "They were both inexperienced". That kind of lineal understanding of the fight is just ignorant to the wider picture.


I know about that, however, Hopkins did not come into his prime upon beating Trinidad, no. He was doing the same stuff as early as 95, I have seen all his fights -- he had a great coach and learned all the tricks before the media accepted him for beating someone popular. The truth is they slept on hopkins and didn't like his style of fighting as he aged. He became more crafty with age, but Jones did too. I would say B-hop was more SCHOOLED than Jones, but I WOULD NOT say smarter, Jones has an excellent boxing intellect, you can see this from his commentary during fights, especially when he was in his prime doing commentary - and you can see this in his fights. You need to watch his fight with Harding and watch how he adapted.



> - Jones may have been inexperienced, but he didn't rely on the mental side of his game as much as Hopkins did. BHOP was never as talented as Jones, but eventually he did end up being smarter. When they both fought each other for the first time, Hopkins didn't have the same kind of ring IQ he had when they fought the second time. Jones still had the great speed and reflexes, being a younger fighter benefited Jones, it did not benefit Hopkins. To put it plainly, Hopkins was much further out of his prime than Jones was. I'm not saying Jones didn't improve from that point on but you cannot deny that Hopkins improved as a fighter A LOT more. He was not an ATG fighter when Jones beat him, he wasn't the same fighter who knocked out Glen Johnson and beat up Trinidad.


Hopkins improved in ways, he became more crafty, but trust me when I say, he was already schooled. Losing to Jones was probably a learning experience for him, something he needed. Jones was close to prime, but he was prime in SMW and his in ring IQ increased as well. Hopkins reached his prime, absolutely, in 95/94-96. I am not saying he did not improve, I would simply not call him green then. The Johnson victory, if we go by this type of logic, lets say he was green and not yet capable of what he became, to diminish it. I wouldn't do it. Whether hopkins was young or old, he wouldve never beat RJJ.



> - Jones was considered a top P4P fighter when they both met, Hopkins was no where near that. It was well documented how much Hopkins improved from that point onwards. He become a much more defensively responsible fighter, picking up the tricks of the trade, learning his craft improving gradually. Here are a couple of quotes to back up what I am saying, one from Bert Sugar and one from Shane Mosley.


Hopkins wasnt seen as p4p during the middleweight tourny until he beat Trinidad even though he probably shouldve been prior to that, so that isnt saying much. How is it well documented, Hopkins did the same stuff then he does now, only that he was more aggressive. The reality is he always struggles with athletic fighters who employ speed and angles. All the people he really struggled with fit this mold, but only RJJ beat him decisively... well other than the guy who recently got KO'd by Stevenson, forgot his name. That's why I am of the opinion that him losing to Jones had more to do with what Jones was doing, than any inability on Hopkins side. The win for Jones wasnt a blowout, but he won clearly though.



> - In his prime Hopkins had both the knockout power you're talking about and the ring smarts, he had the right balance.


Well then you are referring to Hopkins back when he actually KO'd people, which was the years I am mentioning. He always had right balance, he always had ring smarts, power, but he became more crafty with age. He implemented his tactics, the dirty ones more.



> It's not a case at all of Hopkins not being recognized, it was a case of Hopkins not being as good as he was in his prime.


Okay... Hopkins had fought on HBO before Trinidad... people looked at him as an good fighter, who relied on being dirty. Unless you think Hopkins prime happened when he fought Trinidad, as it was only after defeating a name that the public began to look at him differently and take his ongoing accomplishment of title defenses seriously, then you are going to have a hard time convincing me of what you are saying here. Hopkins, although fighting on HBO before Trinidad, was being severely underrated and only criticized for being dirty. So my question to you is, Hopkins was not as before Trinidad? Before the victory he was merely drawn as a stepping stone to the unstoppable ATG Trinidad, a guy who was supposed to easily be KO'd... the only thing Trinidad had to worry about, according to most critics and analyst was Hopkins dirty tactics. The same thing happened with Vernon Forrest before Mosley... they do this shit a lot... all the time... just like how they did with Guillermo Rigondeaux and Donaire... I guess some will say Rigo reached his prime during Donaire... if so, TDKSAB like those who think Hopkins entered his prime 01, because thats when the media recognized him for beating their guy they were backing.



> You've got to understand that fighters come in lots of different forms and they are all different, but when it comes to BHOP, he is very different. Many people consider Hopkins prime to be around the Trinidad fight when he was 36 years old. That's right, 36. That should tell you that the guys developed differently to most fighters, he got better as he got older, he got better as his mind got smarter. The Jones fight was 8 whole years out of his prime, that's not due to lack of recognition, it's due to a learning process that saw him become a great fighter. He wasn't born a great fighter and he certainly wasn't blessed with the kind of tangible talent that RJJ was blessed with. Everything he has today, he earned through hard work and devotion to the sport. Comparatively, you could say Jones was in his prime around 1995, a whole two years after the Hopkins fight.


Those many people who think Hopkins entered his prime at Trinidad DKSAB, they have largely ignored his fights since 95 - I was watching Hopkins before that. Hopkins had to work hard as hell, but so did Jones. He didn't necessarily have things handed to him. For a better part of three years his father, sr, who was managing him held him back and had him fighting domestic competition, virtual cans in his hometown. He had to fire his fighter, get with some better guys, and then he got a fight with Vaca. But yeah, being dynamic as RJJ was, obviously he became one to watch before others due to his competition of speed and power.



> - It's not a case of discrediting the win, it's a case of looking at it realistically. If Jones would of beaten Hopkins in 2001 would it of been a better win? Yes of course, and that is the key here. Jones beat him when he was far from his best. Hopkins wasn't an ATG quality fighter when he fought him, he wouldn't of beaten other ATG's, he wouldn't of beaten the guys he went on to beat in his prime. This is evidenced by the fact he got dropped three times and forced into a draw by Mercado, a fighter he would of destroyed in his prime and a fighter he did destroy a year later when he adapted and become more experienced.


Was his struggle with Mercado the first time due to experience or due to the 10k altitude? But I won't use excuses, even though Hopkins going down at MW is awkward... In the rematch he TKO'd him. So what exactly is your point here? He wasn't primed because he had an off-night? Was Mercado better than Jones, since he was able to KD Hopkins, does he have more power than Jones? Did he lose to Mercado? So if a fighter goes on to struggle within a single fight, it means that they arent prime? That he went on to TKO the guy in the next fight, shows what it was.



> 3. Toney's problems were relevant and important, if you don't believe that then fair enough, but many people including my self do believe that a victory over a 168lbs James Toney who was never that great at the weight, isn't as great as it sounds, given the weight problems and the fact it wasn't at his best weight. It's still a VERY good win, but you can't just say Jones dominated ATG James Toney without mentioning the stipulations around that victory. That isn't how it works.


I'm not going to repeat myself. MW/SMW is where Toney did his best work as a fighter. While he killed himself making weight, he attempted to do so to his advantage. Lots of fighters do this man, Morales, Pac, Hoya... man I could list a whole lot of fighters, it's what they do... you can't take the advantages without the disadvantages. Morales was killing himself to make weight at a weight where he did some of his best work.

I'm not saying one should not consider these things, I'm saying a lot of this is bullshit and there is always excuses. Look at Donaire, he gets completely dominated, that domination is nearly on par with Toney getting dominated... and what happens afterwards, I was dying to make weight... he was running. Toney said the same thing. There is ALWAYS an excuse, the only fighters who make no excuse are the real humble guys like Hearns. Fighters ALWAYS look for reasons why they lose, its a psychological device to continue to be motivated and believe in themselves. Tarver, in his mind, only loss once and was poisoned during the Hopkins fight.


----------



## Luf

I thought Toney looked his best at SMW by far tbh.


----------



## Luf

Bill Butcher said:


> Yeah, Robinson & Whitaker are two of the few that look better than Jones, as does Sugar Ray Leonard the welterweight.


Leonard is also in my top ten. Both of them are.


----------



## TFG

Snakefist said:


> I get what you said. I didn't agree with the SRL one though. I am not critical of him, but just being honest. But I get your point.
> 
> I know about that, however, Hopkins did not come into his prime upon beating Trinidad, no. He was doing the same stuff as early as 95, I have seen all his fights -- he had a great coach and learned all the tricks before the media accepted him for beating someone popular. The truth is they slept on hopkins and didn't like his style of fighting as he aged. He became more crafty with age, but Jones did too. I would say B-hop was more SCHOOLED than Jones, but I WOULD NOT say smarter, Jones has an excellent boxing intellect, you can see this from his commentary during fights, especially when he was in his prime doing commentary - and you can see this in his fights. You need to watch his fight with Harding and watch how he adapted.
> 
> Hopkins improved in ways, he became more crafty, but trust me when I say, he was already schooled. Losing to Jones was probably a learning experience for him, something he needed. Jones was close to prime, but he was prime in SMW and his in ring IQ increased as well. Hopkins reached his prime, absolutely, in 95/94-96. I am not saying he did not improve, I would simply not call him green then. The Johnson victory, if we go by this type of logic, lets say he was green and not yet capable of what he became, to diminish it. I wouldn't do it. Whether hopkins was young or old, he wouldve never beat RJJ.
> 
> Hopkins wasnt seen as p4p during the middleweight tourny until he beat Trinidad even though he probably shouldve been prior to that, so that isnt saying much. How is it well documented, Hopkins did the same stuff then he does now, only that he was more aggressive. The reality is he always struggles with athletic fighters who employ speed and angles. All the people he really struggled with fit this mold, but only RJJ beat him decisively... well other than the guy who recently got KO'd by Stevenson, forgot his name. That's why I am of the opinion that him losing to Jones had more to do with what Jones was doing, than any inability on Hopkins side. The win for Jones wasnt a blowout, but he won clearly though.
> 
> Well then you are referring to Hopkins back when he actually KO'd people, which was the years I am mentioning. He always had right balance, he always had ring smarts, power, but he became more crafty with age. He implemented his tactics, the dirty ones more.
> 
> Okay... Hopkins had fought on HBO before Trinidad... people looked at him as an good fighter, who relied on being dirty. Unless you think Hopkins prime happened when he fought Trinidad, as it was only after defeating a name that the public began to look at him differently and take his ongoing accomplishment of title defenses seriously, then you are going to have a hard time convincing me of what you are saying here. Hopkins, although fighting on HBO before Trinidad, was being severely underrated and only criticized for being dirty. So my question to you is, Hopkins was not as before Trinidad? Before the victory he was merely drawn as a stepping stone to the unstoppable ATG Trinidad, a guy who was supposed to easily be KO'd... the only thing Trinidad had to worry about, according to most critics and analyst was Hopkins dirty tactics. The same thing happened with Vernon Forrest before Mosley... they do this shit a lot... all the time... just like how they did with Guillermo Rigondeaux and Donaire... I guess some will say Rigo reached his prime during Donaire... if so, TDKSAB like those who think Hopkins entered his prime 01, because thats when the media recognized him for beating their guy they were backing.
> 
> Those many people who think Hopkins entered his prime at Trinidad DKSAB, they have largely ignored his fights since 95 - I was watching Hopkins before that. Hopkins had to work hard as hell, but so did Jones. He didn't necessarily have things handed to him. For a better part of three years his father, sr, who was managing him held him back and had him fighting domestic competition, virtual cans in his hometown. He had to fire his fighter, get with some better guys, and then he got a fight with Vaca. But yeah, being dynamic as RJJ was, obviously he became one to watch before others due to his competition of speed and power.
> 
> Was his struggle with Mercado the first time due to experience or due to the 10k altitude? But I won't use excuses, even though Hopkins going down at MW is awkward... In the rematch he TKO'd him. So what exactly is your point here? He wasn't primed because he had an off-night? Was Mercado better than Jones, since he was able to KD Hopkins, does he have more power than Jones? Did he lose to Mercado? So if a fighter goes on to struggle within a single fight, it means that they arent prime? That he went on to TKO the guy in the next fight, shows what it was.
> 
> I'm not going to repeat myself. MW/SMW is where Toney did his best work as a fighter. While he killed himself making weight, he attempted to do so to his advantage. Lots of fighters do this man, Morales, Pac, Hoya... man I could list a whole lot of fighters, it's what they do... you can't take the advantages without the disadvantages. Morales was killing himself to make weight at a weight where he did some of his best work.
> 
> I'm not saying one should not consider these things, I'm saying a lot of this is bullshit and there is always excuses. Look at Donaire, he gets completely dominated, that domination is nearly on par with Toney getting dominated... and what happens afterwards, I was dying to make weight... he was running. Toney said the same thing. There is ALWAYS an excuse, the only fighters who make no excuse are the real humble guys like Hearns. Fighters ALWAYS look for reasons why they lose, its a psychological device to continue to be motivated and believe in themselves. Tarver, in his mind, only loss once and was poisoned during the Hopkins fight.


1. What makes you say he was in his prime in 1995? You really think he didn't improve at all in those six years leading up to the Trinidad fight? That's an interesting point but not one I can agree with. For a long time Hopkins improved with every fight, the art of becoming schooled in something is time intensive, it's not something that lands at your feet. Hopkins clearly improved from the first Mercado fight and gained a hell of a lot of experience from the two fights with Echols. His ring craft was still developing in the mid 90's, he was still overly aggressive sometimes and got a caught a lot more than he did in his prime as a result. The Mercado and Echols fights show this clearly. He didn't develop into such a neat and well schooled defensive fighter until the early 2000 period. That version of BHOP is better than that of 95, there's no doubts in my mind. I'm not sure how you can say Roy Jones is smarter than Hopkins, that just doesn't make sense to me. Hopkins is one of the smartest fighters of all time. How else could he be fighting at this age? I think Roy is still to this day proving he isn't as smart as Bernard. He made several mistakes that saw him get knocked out against the likes of Danny Green. If his ring IQ was as high as your saying, I don't think he'd be laying on the ropes taking shots he knows he can't take, I don't think he'd still be trying to fight like he's 20 years old. Roy never had great fundamentals and it come back to curse him when he lost all those amazing physical attributes. You can make the point about him being a great analyst, but we know Hopkins is a great analyst too, we also know Jones is fighting when he shouldn't be and is under somewhat of a delusional state. If we are going to talk about how smart he is outside of the ring as well, how can we ignore this?

2. Of course Hopkins was already schooled to some degree, but he hadn't hit his best in the mid 90's, he really hadn't. If you go back and watch some of those fights, he was making mistakes that he wasn't making in his prime. I don't think you have much of a point with the Johnson comparison. We know that Hopkins went on to do much better things after the Jones defeat, what did Johnson go on to do after the Hopkins defeat? Not much at all is the answer. Hopkins was green for the Jones fight and I think you've pretty much admitted that. With that said, how can you still give him maximum credit for that victory, when he didn't beat a prime Hopkins? The BHOP of 1993 was not the fighter of 2001, so therefore you CANNOT give Jones the credit of beating the 2001 Hopkins, because he didn't do that. He beat Hopkins before he primed.

The same logic an be applied to Middleweight legend Carlos Monzon, would Alberto Massi's and Lisandro Guzman's victories over Monzon been judged the same if they beat him in 1975 rather than 1965? No, of course they wouldn't, their wins would be held in much higher regard because they would of beat a prime Monzon, not a green Monzon. That's just the way it works. I apologize if it sounds like I'm really trying to discredit RJJ's win because I'm not, it's still a very good win, I just don't think it's fair to say he dominated an ATG without mentioning the fact that Hopkins wasn't fighting like an ATG at the time. Just like it wouldn't be fair to say Alberto Massi dominated an ATG.

3. Hopkins does struggle with speed, and he always would do, he would always struggle with Jones, but that doesn't mean he would of always been dominated by Jones. He struggled with Taylor's speed but he didn't get dominated. Nobody dominated a prime Bernard Hopkins. A lot of people gave Hopkins at least 3 of the last 4 rounds (all three judges gave him the last four) in their first fight, so I'm not going to say Jones dominates a much better version of Hopkins, when he was already losing rounds to a green Hopkins.

Hopkins was KO'n people more back then because he wasn't fighting the same standard of opposition as he was during his prime. That's always the way it works. In the time period you mention, he was knocking out guys like Wendall Hall and Melyvin Wynn. Of course he is going get knockouts against guys like this. When he entered his real prime, his opposition reflected that and as a result he wasn't able to get knockouts so easy. He went to points with the likes of Joppy and Eastman who are much better fighters than Hall and Wynn. When the styles were right, he still got knockouts, see the Trinidad and De La Hoya fights.

4. The Mercado fights show that he certainly was NOT in his prime. A prime Bernard Hopkins doesn't get caught with the shots he got caught with in both Mercado fights. He was defensively irresponsible and that cannot be blamed on the altitude. Did you watch the second fight? He might of won by TKO, but he still took shots he would of never took in his prime. Those two fights, along with the first Echols fight in particular are a testament to how much Hopkins improved and how much he perfected his craft during those years. The adjustments are clear to say when you watch Bernard Hopkins in his actual prime year.

5. I completely understand your point about there always being a problem, but you can't just write off any issue with the fight because you don't like the way certain problems are mentioned. Toney was in bad condition, whether it was his own fault or not. He ballooned up in weight before that fight and was completely drained trying to make the weight. The water weight he put back on went straight into flab, he had no muscular tone and didn't display that much energy at any point in the fight. Toney had said, I wanted the fight at 175, he knew he needed to move up, but Jones wasn't ready to move up then. The plea to move up in weight is a clear sign that Toney himself knew that he was going to struggle with the weight.

Here's a quote that sums up what I'm trying to say about Toney's preparation for this fight, it wasn't just a regular excuse or James Toney doing what he normally does, the weight killed him.

"*Toney went into training camp for the Jones match a mere 6 weeks prior to the fight, weighing 214 lbs. By the day of the weigh-in Toney had stepped on the scale weighing a weak looking 167 lbs. He had lost 47 lbs in just 6 weeks. Toney was severely dehydrated and his camp knew it. After the weigh-in, Toney was hooked up to an I.V. in order to replace his body with fluids and he was kept on it all night until the next day of the fight. On fight day, just before entering the ring, Toney had weighed himself in the dressing room. It was reported that he weighed 186 lbs, which meant that he had gained an incredible 19 pounds*"

I'm not implying Toney would of won, but I do think it would of been more competitive. It's a good, interesting debate this. I hope you don't get offended and think I'm only in this to shit on Jones, that isn't the case at all. My problem is with the idea that Jones dominated two ATG's. I don't like that phrase. I give him a lot of credit for beating future ATG Bernard Hopkins, but not as much credit as I'd of given him for beating a 2001 Hopkins, that's my point.


----------



## turbotime

Toney would've had an excuse even if he won. :verysad


----------



## SouthPaw

Jones is by far the most impressive fighter on film. A class in every area.


----------



## TFG

turbotime said:


> Toney would've had an excuse even if he won. :verysad


Of course he would, the guys an arse.

But either way, he was pretty dead in that fight. He didn't even need to make the excuses, people were saying he was a gonner before the fight ever happened.

For what it's worth, I think Jones always beats him, styles make fights.


----------



## turbotime

TFG said:


> Of course he would, the guys an arse.
> 
> But either way, he was pretty dead in that fight. He didn't even need to make the excuses, people were saying he was a gonner before the fight ever happened.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think Jones always beats him, styles make fights.


Jones actually soaked a few shots in the middle rounds but his legs and defense were too on point that night for Toney to get anything effectively going. Toney was also an inconcistent fighter. Chalk up to laziness or whatever, but I'm almost sue he lost to Griffin shortly after a weight class above.


----------



## tliang1000

SouthPaw said:


> Jones is by far the most impressive fighter on film. A class in every area.


Jones got a C- for both Chin and Heart. Also he doesn't adapt that well.


----------



## SouthPaw

tliang1000 said:


> Jones got a C- for both Chin and Heart. Also he doesn't adapt that well.


Why is it that people ignore the first Tarver fight where Jones' legs were gone in the first 4 rounds. He was exhausted, and he still won a clear decision in a fight he took an incredibly amount of flush punches in from the same Tarver that stopped him the 2nd time?


----------



## SouthPaw

turbotime said:


> Jones actually soaked a few shots in the middle rounds but his legs and defense were too on point that night for Toney to get anything effectively going. Toney was also an inconcistent fighter. Chalk up to laziness or whatever, but I'm almost sue he lost to Griffin shortly after a weight class above.


He got robbed vs Griffin.


----------



## turbotime

Got asked by a couple blogs to do a best ever story  deal with it :deal #1


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Got asked by a couple blogs to do a best ever story  deal with it :deal #1


You should be made to walk on hot coals barefoot if you go through with it. :verysad

I just dont have the adoration for him that I do Floyd and Pea, dunno why really.


----------



## homebrand

Sittin Sonny said:


> C- chin and heart
> F- passing drug tests
> 
> :yep


:yep


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You should be made to walk on hot coals barefoot if you go through with it. :verysad
> 
> I just dont have the adoration for him that I do Floyd and Pea, dunno why really.


I don't know why either :conf


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

His resume is underrated by those who have no idea what was going on in the 90s.

96: Merqui Sosa
96: Eric Lucas
96: Bryant Brannon
96: Mike McCallum
97: Montell Griffin
97: Montell Griffin
98: Virgil Hill
98: Lou Del Valle
98: Otis Grant

This resume is only in a 3 year span(9 fights), and it's pretty much better than Froch's resume from 2008-2013, a resume that is praised like no other resume of active fighters. What's more impressive is that Roy actually won all of his fights. (Just picking Froch's resume because I see it gets so much love, yet Roy fought nobodies).

Now wait, i'm not going to stop there. The resume above is not what makes him an ATG. Before he went on a tear with the resume above, from 93-94, Roy beat Hopkins, Toney and Malinga. Three legitimately dangerous threats to Roy's 0. Roy was green for all of these fights, having less than 25 pro fights when he beat Malinga and Hopkins, and just 26 pro fights when he dominated Toney.

From 1999 to 2003, Roy had wins over Gonzalez(Beat G. Johnson and D.M. afterward), Tarver, Woods, Ruiz, Harding, R. Johnson.

Any one who hates on this resume pretty much knows nothing about 90s boxing and shouldn't even debate about anything from the 90's and down.


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> You should be made to walk on hot coals barefoot if you go through with it. :verysad
> 
> I just dont have the adoration for him that I do Floyd and Pea, dunno why really.


is it because whitaker and floyd avoided getting knocked out +3 times like jones did (no shots fired)


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

How did some one fought bums, but in a span of 6 years they beat 4 HOF'ers?

That says one thing, and one thing only. This guy, whoever he is, that is beating HOF'ers and the resume isn't good enough, has to be one HELL of an ATG.


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> is it because whitaker and floyd avoided getting knocked out +3 times like jones did (no shots fired)


:lol:

I guess I just dig their styles more. :conf I also tend to like the elite little fighters who are around the same size as me for some reason (Pea, Duran, Floyd, etc). Aside from Tyson, who was small amongst HW's.


----------



## turbotime

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> His resume is underrated by those who have no idea what was going on in the 90s.
> 
> 96: Merqui Sosa
> 96: Eric Lucas
> 96: Bryant Brannon
> 96: Mike McCallum
> 97: Montell Griffin
> 97: Montell Griffin
> 98: Virgil Hill
> 98: Lou Del Valle
> 98: Otis Grant
> 
> This resume is only in a 3 year span(9 fights), and it's pretty much better than Froch's resume from 2008-2013, a resume that is praised like no other resume of active fighters. What's more impressive is that Roy actually won all of his fights. (Just picking Froch's resume because I see it gets so much love, yet Roy fought nobodies).
> 
> Now wait, i'm not going to stop there. The resume above is not what makes him an ATG. Before he went on a tear with the resume above, from 93-94, Roy beat Hopkins, Toney and Malinga. Three legitimately dangerous threats to Roy's 0. Roy was green for all of these fights, having less than 25 pro fights when he beat Malinga and Hopkins, and just 26 pro fights when he dominated Toney.
> 
> From 1999 to 2003, Roy had wins over Gonzalez(Beat G. Johnson and D.M. afterward), Tarver, Woods, Ruiz, Harding, R. Johnson.
> 
> Any one who hates on this resume pretty much knows nothing about 90s boxing and shouldn't even debate about anything from the 90's and down.


Yup. 90s was overshadowed by the heavyweights losing to everyone, when Roy was whooping everyone P4P


----------



## Cableaddict

I'm not really crazy about that video Turbotime posted in the OP. It almost makes RJJ look lke any other good fighter.

This one, IMO, shows more of what made him special:


----------



## turbotime

Cableaddict said:


> I'm not really crazy about that video Turbotime posted in the OP. It almost makes RJJ look lke any other good fighter.
> 
> This one, IMO, shows more of what made him special:


Amazing vid too


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> I guess I just dig their styles more. :conf I also tend to like the elite little fighters who are around the same size as me for some reason (Pea, Duran, Floyd, etc). Aside from Tyson, who was small amongst HW's.


Roy was undersized a ton at 175 :conf


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Roy was undersized a ton at 175 :conf


Why does he have such an artificial looking physique and body? :lol: I will never be a Roy Boy.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> *Why does he have such an artificial looking physique and body?* :lol: I will never be a Roy Boy.


The same way Floyd does.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> The same way Floyd does.


Nope, Floyd is chiseled stone. :deal It looks like you could pop Roy's arms with a sewing needle.


----------



## Mal

turbotime said:


> Yup. 90s was overshadowed by the heavyweights losing to everyone, when Roy was whooping everyone P4P


Hey!! It's like you said it too!! :deal

Just toying with you.:smile


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Nope, Floyd is chiseled stone. :deal It looks like you could pop Roy's arms with a sewing needle.


----------



## turbotime

Mal said:


> Hey!! It's like you said it too!! :deal
> 
> Just toying with you.:smile
> 
> :rofl
> 
> See, I'm not all bad. :smoke


wait wo t? @O59


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

The video in the opening post has the saddest ending to any highlight video I have ever seen. The switching back and forth to compare the Roy of 1993 that fought Hopkins, to the Roy of the rematch, reminded me of The Godfather 3 ending when the flashback scenes of Michael Corleone was shown dancing with the 3 women he loved the most throughout the series, and he lost all 3 of them(One wife left him, another wife got blown up in a car, and his daughter got shot). Don't ask me why the Roy ending reminded me of hat,and what the similarities are, IDK, it just reminds me of it.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


>


:rofl :rofl

Don't get mad at me over Roy Jones. Do you think I'm referencing PEDs? :lol: I couldn't give a fuck about that. Testosterone > Any religious God. It's just the man's genetics... He looks cartoonish. Like a superhero or something.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl :rofl
> 
> Don't get mad at me over Roy Jones. Do you think I'm referencing PEDs? :lol: I couldn't give a fuck about that. Testosterone > Any religious God. It's just the man's genetics... He looks cartoonish.* Like a superhero or something*.


Exactly.

What are you missing about Superman Roy Jones?


----------



## Sugarngold

tommygun711 said:


> he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when he looks so spectacular over shitty tomato cans, and when his two best wins are over toney and hopkins


Wins over two Hall of Fame first round ballet fighters?

Roy's march through the middleweight division to his heavyweight title fight against the respectable John Ruiz was no small feat considering there had been a hundred year gap since a former middleweight champion had won the heavyweight title. Lennox Lewis was the real champ but the WBA is still the belt with the longest lineage in the sport.


----------



## turbotime

Sugarngold said:


> Wins over two Hall of Fame first round ballet fighters?
> 
> Roy's march through the middleweight division to his heavyweight title fight against the respectable John Ruiz was no small feat considering there had been a hundred year gap since a former middleweight champion had won the heavyweight title. Lennox Lewis was the real champ but the WBA is still the belt with the longest lineage in the sport.


Amazing how Fitsz gets the regular top 10 treatement with ease but Jones is ovcrrated?????????


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

For whatever it's worth Roy wanted Mike Tyson. Sure he was way past prime, but Roy was no spring chicken either, he was 34 already and many people believed that Roy was about 2 years past prime already. Both were in their 30s, Roy 34, Tyson 36, both were past their absolute prime though, with Roy being a hot name at the time and having a much better career. It would have been interesting to see if never dropped those 25lbs that really weakened him.


----------



## Mal

turbotime said:


> wait wo t? @*O59*


Have no idea what the last two line are. Didn't type em.

Enjoy the fights this weekend!


----------



## Mal

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl :rofl
> 
> Don't get mad at me over Roy Jones. Do you think I'm referencing PEDs? :lol: I couldn't give a fuck about that. Testosterone > Any religious God. It's just the man's genetics... He looks cartoonish. Like a superhero or something.


He did have some odd looking biceps as a LtHW. Almost disproportionate from the rest of his arm.


----------



## Mal

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> For whatever it's worth Roy wanted Mike Tyson. Sure he was way past prime, but Roy was no spring chicken either, he was 34 already and many people believed that Roy was about 2 years past prime already. Both were in their 30s, Roy 34, Tyson 36, both were past their absolute prime though, with Roy being a hot name at the time and having a much better career. It would have been interesting to see if never dropped those 25lbs that really weakened him.


If he moved around enough, I think he'd have had a shot at beating even that version of Iron mike. But getting caught wouldn't be out of the questions.


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

turbotime said:


> Amazing how Fitsz gets the regular top 10 treatement with ease but Jones is ovcrrated?????????


Because, it's that his best wins are an undefeated James Toney, and Bernard Hopkins. Because you know, those wins aren't much.


----------



## turbotime

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> Because, it's that his best wins are an undefeated James Toney, and Bernard Hopkins. Because you know, those wins aren't much.


Remember when Trinidad wanted Roy :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Exactly.
> 
> What are you missing about Superman Roy Jones?


He's always been in my Top 3-5 on film? :-(


----------



## Mr. Brain

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf


Totally another level above everyone else. Once he slowed enough for others to find his chin, he became very human.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> He's always been in my Top 3-5 on film? :-(


Fair


----------



## turbotime

Mr. Brain said:


> Totally another level above everyone else. Once he slowed enough for others to find his chin, he became very human.


Its nly right that the greatest lose the most viciously, in boxing.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Fair


Giving props and being a huge fan are two separate things. :deal

It would be just dumb to deny his talent. That's probably why he irritates me. :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Giving props and being a huge fan are two separate things. :deal
> 
> It would be just dumb to deny his talent. That's probably why he irritates me. :lol:


Cmon doe...

6 20 mins in


----------



## Hands of Iron

Yea, I know I know.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Yea, I know I know.


yeah yeah


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> yeah yeah


It must've broke your heart to see him get embarrassingly KO'ed so many times. (Serious).

I think you like him even more than De La Hoya. Most definitely Pea and Floyd. This guy illuminated your imagination and shaped your interest in the sport.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> It must've broke your heart to see him get embarrassingly KO'ed so many times. (Serious).
> 
> I think you like him even more than De La Hoya. Most definitely Pea and Floyd. This guy illuminated your imagination and shaped your interest in the sport.


He was KO'd as many times as Armstrong was and lost half the fights Ezzard Charles did :conf

Delahoya
Pea
Jones
Floyd/Mosley


----------



## Mind Reader

Roy Jones on tape, looks better to me than Robinson or Leonard.... I know his resume doesn't stack up with them, but on tape, he is the best fighter I have ever watched...


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> He was KO'd as many times as Armstrong was and lost half the fights Ezzard Charles did :conf
> 
> Delahoya
> Pea
> Jones
> Floyd/Mosley


Not talking about what - if anything - it does to his standing, but just the act of it happening and witnessing it.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Not talking about what - if anything - it does to his standing, but just the act of it happening and witnessing it.


No fighter from my era getting KO'd didn't make me upset. Chavez/Tszyu was one that was brought up recently and it was pathetic.


----------



## turbotime

Jones was the only fighter that had Toney legitimately scared. Speaks volumes.


----------



## sugarshane_24

Jones is the only guy I believe could hit an opponent with a four combination from the left hand alone.


----------



## Mind Reader

turbotime said:


> Jones was the only fighter that had Toney legitimately scared. Speaks volumes.


That performance is up there with the very best...

I have never seen such a highly regarded fighter get schooled like that... Knockouts happen, but a complete schooling for 12, after moving up in weight?? That is Roy Jones for you.


----------



## turbotime

Mind Reader said:


> That performance is up there with the very best...
> 
> I have never seen such a highly regarded fighter get schooled like that... Knockouts happen, but a complete schooling for 12, after moving up in weight?? That is Roy Jones for you.


Toney landed early, too. Then once Jones started moving and countering...:lol:


----------



## turbotime




----------



## BoxingJabsBlog

TurboTime damn you for your sig. I've been in mourning all week over breaking bad. At least Mr. white went out on his terms.


----------



## Razer

@The poster who said Roy had a chance against 2002 Tyson.

Roy had no chance. None. Roy is the greatest 168 LBER of all times and H2H wise is a top 7 LHW(he is a bit overrated @175)
He is a freakish talent but any version of Tyson beats any version of Roy.

The retard bum Tyson who quit against McBride actually delivered massive punishment for 2-3 rounds.. with McBride being 250 and 6'8.. he took it well.

2002 Tyson was much faster than Zombie Mike of the McBride fight and for 1 round even had a past prime but still elite Lennox pushed back.

2002 Tyson gave 2 good rounds against Lennox Lewis.. He will only need 2 rounds against any version of Jones. I don't think people understand that 02 Tyson still had that devastating 1 punch KO power and for at least 1 round was still a dangerous fighter. Roy would have danced around for 60-90 seconds, got caught, and died.

Roy Jones Jr should have just fought Lennox Lewis after Ruiz and have his career ended by a top 7-10 ATG Heavyweight instead of getting kayoed from Continent to Continent years past his prime. He should have met his true fate .. which is to walk right into a Lewis straight.

As for John Ruiz.. it wasn't so much that he sucked... (he didn't) it was that his style perfectly suited Roy's. David Tua was actually shorter than Roy but would have killed Jones............. as would Ike. It wasn't that Roy can't fight 'super heavys' like Lennox.. he can't fight against most of the styles at HW.. Ruiz was tailor made... although it was still impressive.

As for LHW.. Roy would get dominated by 6'3 Spinks and it won't even be close. People have to realize that

Most motherfukers posting on this board only saw Spinks vs Tyson...so their opinions means jack shit.

I watched all of Spink's LHW fights and this guy was a giant LHW with brutal KO Power in both hands. An ATG Jab and one of the most awkward if not the most awkward styles in boxing history.

Spinks was a true rubric cube and one Roy would not come close to solving. Spinks was a much bigger man with much better boxing fundamentals his punches come from all angles due to his awkward movement plus he didn't need much velocity to garner power. He just hits you and you hurt .

This is not to belittle Roy because @175 Spinks kills everyone outside of maybe Foster and Charles.

There is a big gap(IMO, I know most have Moore as one of the 175 big 4's) between 
Spinks
Foster
Charles 
and

the rest.

Roy arguably brings up the #4 slot H2H at LHW.. but there's another half dozen guys like the double M's(Moore and Moorer) who could beat Roy.

I am extremely suspect on Roy's chin though.

Wladimir lost to big punchers
Hearns lost to big punchers
Lewis lost to big punchers
Tyson lost to big punchers

Roy got knocked out cold for 5-6 minutes by Glen Fucking Johnson

In the words of the infamous Riddick Bowe
Glen 'can't bust a grape in a fruit fight'

If Johnson could lay Roy out for that long.. what would a Bob Foster do?


----------



## MadcapMaxie

Going by film I'd be tempted to say the same thing, he can't be lower than top 3 that's for sure. His resume is also underrated.


----------



## turbotime

Razer said:


> @The poster who said Roy had a chance against 2002 Tyson.
> 
> Roy had no chance. None. Roy is the greatest 168 LBER of all times and H2H wise is a top 7 LHW(he is a bit overrated @175)
> He is a freakish talent but any version of Tyson beats any version of Roy.
> 
> The retard bum Tyson who quit against McBride actually delivered massive punishment for 2-3 rounds.. with McBride being 250 and 6'8.. he took it well.
> 
> 2002 Tyson was much faster than Zombie Mike of the McBride fight and for 1 round even had a past prime but still elite Lennox pushed back.
> 
> 2002 Tyson gave 2 good rounds against Lennox Lewis.. He will only need 2 rounds against any version of Jones. I don't think people understand that 02 Tyson still had that devastating 1 punch KO power and for at least 1 round was still a dangerous fighter. Roy would have danced around for 60-90 seconds, got caught, and died.
> 
> Roy Jones Jr should have just fought Lennox Lewis after Ruiz and have his career ended by a top 7-10 ATG Heavyweight instead of getting kayoed from Continent to Continent years past his prime. He should have met his true fate .. which is to walk right into a Lewis straight.
> 
> As for John Ruiz.. it wasn't so much that he sucked... (he didn't) it was that his style perfectly suited Roy's. David Tua was actually shorter than Roy but would have killed Jones............. as would Ike. It wasn't that Roy can't fight 'super heavys' like Lennox.. he can't fight against most of the styles at HW.. Ruiz was tailor made... although it was still impressive.
> 
> As for LHW.. Roy would get dominated by 6'3 Spinks and it won't even be close. People have to realize that
> 
> Most motherfukers posting on this board only saw Spinks vs Tyson...so their opinions means jack shit.
> 
> I watched all of Spink's LHW fights and this guy was a giant LHW with brutal KO Power in both hands. An ATG Jab and one of the most awkward if not the most awkward styles in boxing history.
> 
> Spinks was a true rubric cube and one Roy would not come close to solving. Spinks was a much bigger man with much better boxing fundamentals his punches come from all angles due to his awkward movement plus he didn't need much velocity to garner power. He just hits you and you hurt .
> 
> This is not to belittle Roy because @175 Spinks kills everyone outside of maybe Foster and Charles.
> 
> There is a big gap(IMO, I know most have Moore as one of the 175 big 4's) between
> Spinks
> Foster
> Charles
> and
> 
> the rest.
> 
> Roy arguably brings up the #4 slot H2H at LHW.. but there's another half dozen guys like the double M's(Moore and Moorer) who could beat Roy.
> 
> I am extremely suspect on Roy's chin though.
> 
> Wladimir lost to big punchers
> Hearns lost to big punchers
> Lewis lost to big punchers
> Tyson lost to big punchers
> 
> Roy got knocked out cold for 5-6 minutes by Glen Fucking Johnson
> 
> In the words of the infamous Riddick Bowe
> Glen 'can't bust a grape in a fruit fight'
> 
> If Johnson could lay Roy out for that long.. what would a Bob Foster do?


Feel free to share all of the Charles footage at 175 you can.


----------



## paloalto00

rjjfan said:


> I remember asking John Garfield how RJJ would fare against the likes of SRR at 160 and others and he said something to the effect that he would be competitive with all of them. That really says it all from someone who has seen the biggest fights in boxing for the past 60-70 years.


SRR was GREAT, no doubt about that...but boxing evolved from then, so I don't quite know why they hail him so much H2H


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

Razer said:


> @The poster who said Roy had a chance against 2002 Tyson.
> 
> Roy had no chance. None. Roy is the greatest 168 LBER of all times and H2H wise is a top 7 LHW(he is a bit overrated @175)
> He is a freakish talent but any version of Tyson beats any version of Roy.
> 
> The retard bum Tyson who quit against McBride actually delivered massive punishment for 2-3 rounds.. with McBride being 250 and 6'8.. he took it well.
> 
> 2002 Tyson was much faster than Zombie Mike of the McBride fight and for 1 round even had a past prime but still elite Lennox pushed back.
> 
> 2002 Tyson gave 2 good rounds against Lennox Lewis.. He will only need 2 rounds against any version of Jones. I don't think people understand that 02 Tyson still had that devastating 1 punch KO power and for at least 1 round was still a dangerous fighter. Roy would have danced around for 60-90 seconds, got caught, and died.
> 
> Roy Jones Jr should have just fought Lennox Lewis after Ruiz and have his career ended by a top 7-10 ATG Heavyweight instead of getting kayoed from Continent to Continent years past his prime. He should have met his true fate .. which is to walk right into a Lewis straight.
> 
> As for John Ruiz.. it wasn't so much that he sucked... (he didn't) it was that his style perfectly suited Roy's. David Tua was actually shorter than Roy but would have killed Jones............. as would Ike. It wasn't that Roy can't fight 'super heavys' like Lennox.. he can't fight against most of the styles at HW.. Ruiz was tailor made... although it was still impressive.
> 
> As for LHW.. Roy would get dominated by 6'3 Spinks and it won't even be close. People have to realize that
> 
> Most motherfukers posting on this board only saw Spinks vs Tyson...so their opinions means jack shit.
> 
> I watched all of Spink's LHW fights and this guy was a giant LHW with brutal KO Power in both hands. An ATG Jab and one of the most awkward if not the most awkward styles in boxing history.
> 
> Spinks was a true rubric cube and one Roy would not come close to solving. Spinks was a much bigger man with much better boxing fundamentals his punches come from all angles due to his awkward movement plus he didn't need much velocity to garner power. He just hits you and you hurt .
> 
> This is not to belittle Roy because @175 Spinks kills everyone outside of maybe Foster and Charles.
> 
> There is a big gap(IMO, I know most have Moore as one of the 175 big 4's) between
> Spinks
> Foster
> Charles
> and
> 
> the rest.
> 
> Roy arguably brings up the #4 slot H2H at LHW.. but there's another half dozen guys like the double M's(Moore and Moorer) who could beat Roy.
> 
> I am extremely suspect on Roy's chin though.
> 
> Wladimir lost to big punchers
> Hearns lost to big punchers
> Lewis lost to big punchers
> Tyson lost to big punchers
> 
> Roy got knocked out cold for 5-6 minutes by Glen Fucking Johnson
> 
> In the words of the infamous Riddick Bowe
> Glen 'can't bust a grape in a fruit fight'
> 
> If Johnson could lay Roy out for that long.. what would a Bob Foster do?


This dude really just used "If Glen Johnson could do..."

Seriously?

And Spinks, Foster and Charles don't beat Roy in his prime. Nobody from 154-175 does.

This dude really brought up Roy's loss to Glen Johnson to make an argument of why Roy would lose to the 175 greats. Unbelievable. That is what you call being cheap.


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

Yo, if Jean Pascal could knock down Hopkins, imagine what Foster would do to him!


----------



## turbotime

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> Yo, if Jean Pascal could knock down Hopkins, imagine what Foster would do to him!


Marshall knocked prime Charles down 7 times imagine what Jones would do! :err


----------



## Illuminaughty

roy jones was amazing! my dad use to rave about him. actually, he still does


----------



## turbotime

Illuminaughty said:


> roy jones was amazing! my dad use to rave about him. actually, he still does


So does mine


----------



## tommygun711

paloalto00 said:


> SRR was GREAT, no doubt about that...but boxing evolved from then, so I don't quite know why they hail him so much H2H


Boxing didn't evolve. Inside fighting and body punching isn't nearly as important as it use to be. Fighters are more athletic nowadays, I'll give you that, but the technique certainly didn't evolve.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Boxing didn't evolve. Inside fighting and body punching isn't nearly as important as it use to be. Fighters are more athletic nowadays, I'll give you that, but the technique certainly didn't evolve.


I agree.
@bballchump11 made a great thread on this I believe


----------



## Bladerunner

Henry Hank would make Jones his bitch :yep


----------



## Bladerunner

Bob Foster would have left Jones on life support :yep


----------



## Bladerunner

Bob Satterfield would break Jones teeth and leave him in there for the flies.:yep


----------



## Illuminaughty

Bladerunner said:


> Bob Satterfield would break Jones teeth and leave him in there for the flies.:yep


 drugs are bad


----------



## turbotime

Shut up blade :lol:

I was reading Merchant was telling stories about Hank and Moore having heated sparring sessions. Would love to be a fly on the wall for those stories


----------



## Bladerunner

He looked great against sanitation workers, cops,male strippers, postmen, pizza delivery guys,firemen,school teachers,janitors etc... put him in there with against Ray Robinson at 160 and he gets Jimmy Doyle'd or Baroudi'd if he went in against a 175 pounds Ezzard Charles :yep


----------



## Illuminaughty

Bladerunner said:


> He looked great against sanitation workers, cops,male strippers, postmen, pizza delivery guys,firemen,school teachers,janitors etc... put him in there with against Ray Robinson at 160 and he gets Jimmy Doyle'd or Baroudi'd if he went in against a 175 pounds Ezzard Charles :yep


 who did you want him to fight?


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> He looked great against sanitation workers, cops,male strippers, postmen, pizza delivery guys,firemen,school teachers,janitors etc... put him in there with against Ray Robinson at 160 and he gets Jimmy Doyle'd or Baroudi'd if he went in against a 175 pounds Ezzard Charles :yep


Robinson would quit like he did against Maxim :deal


----------



## Bladerunner

El Nica makes Roy Jones look like a skill less bum :yep


----------



## dyna

Roy Jones his bodyshots would probably be too much for Robinson even if he can endure headhunting from Roy.






People like to talk about how ferocious SRR his bodypunching was, but Roy his bodyshots were something else


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> Roy Jones his bodyshots would probably be too much for Robinson even if he can endure headhunting from Roy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People like to talk about how ferocious SRR his bodypunching was, but Roy his bodyshots are something els.e


Basilio was able to outbox Robinson, Roy would handle Basilio, Turpin, Lamotta in the same night :yep


----------



## Bladerunner

Frank "The Animal" Fletcher's mom would beat Jones up with his shoe.

The Animal's mom >>> Jones.:yep


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Frank "The Animal" Fletcher's mom would beat Jones up with his shoe.
> 
> The Animal's mom >>> Jones.:yep


:rofl :rofl :rofl

Glass would be shattered


----------



## Bladerunner

"Reluctant Roy" didnt had the testicular fortitude to enter the ring against someone like Bennie Briscoe :yep


----------



## Bladerunner

Saad Muhamad would shatter Jones chin with a Jab :yep


----------



## dyna

Too pretty to face Burley, too pretty to face RJJ


----------



## bballchump11

turbotime said:


> I agree.
> 
> @bballchump11 made a great thread on this I believe


:yep oh yeah, maybe I should post it again for this site


----------



## Bladerunner

Eric Harding made Jones look average imagine what the Jinx would do to him?


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> Too pretty to face Burley, too pretty to face RJJ


:deal


----------



## Bladerunner

Nigel Benn spared Jones of a beating of a life time by beating G-Man(Jones would have ducked him anyway).:yep


----------



## turbotime

bballchump11 said:


> :yep oh yeah, maybe I should post it again for this site


Do it.


----------



## Sittin Sonny

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> And Spinks, Foster and Charles don't beat Roy in his prime. Nobody from 154-175 does.


Roy didn't even win every fight he had in his prime, even against non-greats. Saying he automatically beats "everyone" across four weight classes is frankly absurd.


----------



## turbotime

No one is beating Jones at 160.


----------



## Bladerunner

Jake Lamotta would beat Jones up as if his first name was Vicky.:yep


----------



## turbotime

Horrible :lol:


----------



## dyna

SRR quit to a lhw, just like Vitali who lost to Lewis who dropped his belt for Ruiz who lost to RJJ, naturally that means RJJ beats SRR

Edit:tko6


----------



## Bladerunner

Roberto Duran would get Jones pregnant just by looking at him :yep


----------



## turbotime

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> For whatever it's worth Roy wanted Mike Tyson. Sure he was way past prime, but Roy was no spring chicken either, he was 34 already and many people believed that Roy was about 2 years past prime already. Both were in their 30s, Roy 34, Tyson 36, both were past their absolute prime though, with Roy being a hot name at the time and having a much better career. It would have been interesting to see if never dropped those 25lbs that really weakened him.


Roy caught so much shit :-( Roy was reluctant because he wouldn't move to heavyweight :lol:


----------



## Bladerunner

It was "Reluctant" Roy who started all the talk about moving to HW not anyone else, at the time it was to fight a way past it shopworn Buster Douglas but he consulted with his father and his father told him it was a bad idea. Roy was never "Reluctant" to fight guys with day jobs though.:yep


----------



## Bladerunner

Harold Johnson great textbook skills would make Jones look like Richard Frazier.:yep


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

Sittin Sonny said:


> Roy didn't even win every fight he had in his prime, even against non-greats. Saying he automatically beats "everyone" across four weight classes is frankly absurd.


Who the hell did Roy lose to in his prime?


----------



## Bladerunner

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> Who the hell did Roy lose to in his prime?


He lost to Montell Griffin you dumbass snitch.


----------



## Uncle Rico

Yeah, he's probably the greatest specimen of a fighter I've witnessed in my time as a boxing fan, too. Superman Roy, y'all musta' forgot.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> No one is beating Jones at 160.


lol


----------



## Bladerunner

McCallum would give Jones all he could handle and more, a way past his best Bodysnatcher managed to bother Jones during some periods of their fight, a fresher closer to his prime Mike had what it takes to beat Jones or at least make it a very close fight. Kalambay would be an interesting fight too, very skilled and crafty fighter who on his best day would be an handful for almost everybody at 160 pound history but on the other hand Jones had the speed and power to Nunn'd Sumbu so who knows it could be one of his hardest fights or one of the easiest, i think the debacle against Nunn was a bit of a fluke i think they could fight ten more times and all would be close fights so i would lean towards the best Kalambay giving Jones trouble.

Speaking of Nunn hes another guy that would give Jones one hell of a fight IMO.Jones would be the favorite against all three though.


----------



## EngorgedW/Blood

This guy^, all he does is name calling. What a loser, who logs in to a forum to start name calling and posting silly pictures of snitching? You banned yourself you god damned abomination.

Any one who counts the Griffin DQ as a legit loss for a prime Roy should never be taken serious again.

Might as well count JMM's DQ as an argument for how he will measure up against the ATG featherweights?


----------



## Sittin Sonny

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> Any one who counts the Griffin DQ as a legit loss for a prime Roy should never be taken serious again.


If your idea of "serious" is claiming someone can't lose across four weight classes, then this should be considered a compliment.



EngorgedW/Blood said:


> Might as well count JMM's DQ as an argument for how he will measure up against the ATG featherweights?




As opposed to selectively ignoring or excusing every single one of a fighter's losses, which is what you seem intent on doing.

But nice to know you have no qualms about using a fight from outside a fighter's prime to make your point (in contrast to your earlier post).


----------



## Bladerunner

Sittin Sonny said:


> If your idea of "serious" is claiming someone can't lose across four weight classes, then this should be considered a compliment.
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to selectively ignoring or excusing every single one of a fighter's losses, which is what you seem intent on doing.
> 
> But nice to know you have no qualms about using a fight from outside a fighter's prime to make your point (in contrast to your earlier post).


Be carefull She might get emotional cause you're disagreeing with her and go snitch up on you to the mods, Not to mention her knowledge of boxing is shocking or basically doesnt exist.

Someone who thinks nobody the history of the sport cant beat Roy Jones from 160 to Heavyweight , should log off and immediately off himself in this case herself.


----------



## Bladerunner

EngorgedW/Blood said:


> This guy^, all he does is name calling. What a loser, who logs in to a forum to start name calling and posting silly pictures of snitching? You banned yourself you god damned abomination.
> 
> Any one who counts the Griffin DQ as a legit loss for a prime Roy should never be taken serious again.
> 
> Might as well count JMM's DQ as an argument for how he will measure up against the ATG featherweights?


----------



## turbotime

Sittin Sonny said:


> If your idea of "serious" is claiming someone can't lose across four weight classes, then this should be considered a compliment.
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to selectively ignoring or excusing every single one of a fighter's losses, which is what you seem intent on doing.
> 
> But nice to know you have no qualms about using a fight from outside a fighter's prime to make your point (in contrast to your earlier post).


Prime Roy was the one schooling Toney, not fighting Griffin.


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Harold Johnson great textbook skills would make Jones look like Richard Frazier.:yep


Yeah like Reggie Johnson did right :lol:


----------



## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> Yeah like Reggie Johnson did right :lol:


Yeah cause a past his best Sweet Reggie is comparable to the great Harold Johnson.

Whats next? comparing Vinny Pazienza with Jake Lamotta?Jorge Castro with Monzon?Hell lets compare Richard Frazier with Michael Spinks while we're at it :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Yeah cause a past his best Sweet Reggie is comparable to the great Harold Johnson.
> 
> Whats next? comparing Vinny Pazienza with Jake Lamotta?Jorge Castro with Monzon?Hell lets compare Richard Frazier with Michael Spinks while we're at it :lol:


Johnson would be KO'd.

And Reggie arguably had the best KO of his career one fight prior and left Guthrie drooling and leaving on a stretcher, off a perfect counter hook.


----------



## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> Johnson would be KO'd.
> 
> And Reggie arguably had the best KO of his career one fight prior and left Guthrie drooling and leaving on a stretcher, off a perfect counter hook.


It actually wasnt one fight prior and still Guthrie was a nobody who never beat anyone worth talking about and he lost to a past his best Reggie Johnson. Harold Johnson would stop Guthrie and Reggie in the same night and beat Roy's ass the day after :yep


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> It actually wasnt one fight prior and still Guthrie was a nobody who never beat anyone worth talking about and he lost to a past his best Reggie Johnson. Harold Johnson would stop Guthrie and Reggie in the same night and beat Roy's ass the day after :yep


Jones would make Harold look like Reggie and adopt both Johnson's as his sons the day after. :smoke


----------



## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> Jones would make Harold look like Reggie and adopt both Johnson's as his sons the day after. :smoke


Harold Johnson at 85 years old would still shatter Roy's glass jaw without even having to get up from his rocking chair :yep


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Harold Johnson at 85 years old would still shatter Roy's glass jaw without even having to get up from his rocking chair :yep


Johnson has been dropped more times than an Iphone call, no way is he laying a glove on the GOAT :happy :hammer


----------



## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> Johnson has been dropped more times than an Iphone call, no way is he laying a glove on the GOAT :happy :hammer


The GOAT would never find himself in this positions :yep


----------



## turbotime

guess not :lol:


----------



## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> guess not :lol:


Never knocked out in more than 190 fights :deal

Damn you T, you making me look like a Roy hater which i'm far from it. In fact when i first joined ESB more than a decade ago i was considered a Jones nutthugger always arguing with the DM Huggers :lol:

Heres another one for old time's sake:

Heres Roy needing assistance to get up after being sparked by a Bob Foster left hook.:yep


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Never knocked out in more than 190 fights :deal
> 
> Damn you T, you making me look like a Roy hater which i'm far from it. In fact when i first joined ESB more than a decade ago i was considered a Jones nutthugger always arguing with the DM Huggers :lol:
> 
> Heres another one for old time's sake:
> 
> Heres Roy needing assistance to get up after being sparked by a Bob Foster left hook.:yep


:lol: I know you're taking the piss for the most part but at times, it IS fun to take stabs at the greats. I agree with Nunn though he'd be a right handful :deal

As long as it's not malicious, like say a Klittard trying to take legitimate stabs at Ali and Holmes after last night as a way to justify Wlad's actions (and I'm a Wlad fan) :-(


----------



## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> :lol: I know you're taking the piss for the most part but at times, it IS fun to take stabs at the greats. I agree with Nunn though he'd be a right handful :deal
> 
> As long as it's not malicious, like say a Klittard trying to take legitimate stabs at Ali and Holmes after last night as a way to justify Wlad's actions (and I'm a Wlad fan) :-(


Just having fun and playing devil's advocate :lol: , I would have loved if Roy had retired undefeated after coming back down from HW to LHW to regain his 175 crown and match Bob Fitzsimmons 100 or so year old feat.

As for Clinchko i was never a big fan of the big guys but Wlad last night took the piss, that shit was disgraceful, i fear i might be scarred for life after witnessing that ( i dont even know what to call it) and i might not see another HW fight ever again.

Roy Jones>>>>>>Wlad :yep


----------



## turbotime

Bladerunner said:


> Just having fun and playing devil's advocate :lol: , I would have loved if Roy had retired undefeated after coming back down from HW to LHW to regain his 175 crown and match Bob Fitzsimmons 100 or so year old feat.
> 
> As for Clinchko i was never a big fan of the big guys but Wlad last night took the piss, that shit was disgraceful, i fear i might be scarred for life after witnessing that ( i dont even know what to call it) and i might not see another HW fight ever again.
> 
> Roy Jones>>>>>>Wlad :yep


:deal :deal :deal

and people called Ruiz boring. I'm actually going to watch the Holyfield/Ruiz trilogy to erase the bad memory of yesterday :lol:


----------



## Bladerunner

turbotime said:


> :deal :deal :deal
> 
> and people called Ruiz boring. I'm actually going to watch the Holyfield/Ruiz trilogy to erase the bad memory of yesterday :lol:


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## dyna

turbotime said:


> :deal :deal :deal
> 
> and people called Ruiz boring. I'm actually going to watch the Holyfield/Ruiz trilogy to erase the bad memory of yesterday :lol:


I bet if Wlad had switched with Ruiz in the 11th round of the second fight, Wlad would have held more than Holyfield.

Also before anyone mentions Ruiz got KOd by a bodyshot the round before, it was a clear lowblow (as evidenced by the slow-mo) followed by a punch, Ruiz was already falling when Holy finally hit the legal punch.


----------



## turbotime




----------



## Hands of Iron

Lol SouthPaw immediately jumps into thread.


----------



## turbotime

Jim Brown called Harry "Henry" :rofl


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf


Yeah, I've since come to terms with such things. Don't even remember what I said in this thread, but it was all taking the piss. :lol: My Top 10 thread says it all.

I still prefer a variety of other boxing styles tho :bart Pea was really, actually better, Toney was drained etc


----------



## Hands of Iron




----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


>


I need this magazineeee!!!! :ibutt!! :ibutt!! :ibutt!!!!


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> lol


Stop it Tommy your lying eyes can't be trusted.

"Corrales was shot when Floyd fought him" :rofl


----------



## FelixTrinidad

We are all so blessed as Boxing fans over the decades.

The 90's had Roy,Toney,Evander,Lewis,Tyson,Whitaker,Chavez,Maccallum,Benn,Eubank,Oscar,Tito, and so many more.
The 2000's had Floyd,Jmm,more Oscar and Tito, Pacquaio,Hopkins,Calzaghe, Klitschkos and so many more.

Now this current 2010+ era we have Anthony Joshua and Vasyl Lomachenko. Amazing.


----------



## Leftsmash

FelixTrinidad said:


> We are all so blessed as Boxing fans over the decades.
> 
> The 90's had Roy,Toney,Evander,Lewis,Tyson,Whitaker,Chavez,Maccallum,Benn,Eubank,Oscar,Tito, and so many more.
> The 2000's had Floyd,Jmm,more Oscar and Tito, Pacquaio,Hopkins,Calzaghe, Klitschkos and so many more.
> 
> Now this current 2010+ era we have Anthony Joshua and Vasyl Lomachenko. Amazing.


You're forgetting Raymi for this decade even though he should of been a 90's fighter but he is a late bloomer. And Floyd is still active in this decade.


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> We are all so blessed as Boxing fans over the decades.
> 
> The 90's had Roy,Toney,Evander,Lewis,Tyson,Whitaker,Chavez,Maccallum,Benn,Eubank,Oscar,Tito, and so many more.
> The 2000's had Floyd,Jmm,more Oscar and Tito, Pacquaio,Hopkins,Calzaghe, Klitschkos and so many more.
> 
> Now this current 2010+ era we have Anthony Joshua and Vasyl Lomachenko. Amazing.





Leftsmash said:


> You're forgetting Raymi for this decade even though he should of been a 90's fighter but he is a late bloomer. And Floyd is still active in this decade.


:happy :happy


----------



## turbotime




----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I need this magazineeee!!!! :ibutt!! :ibutt!! :ibutt!!!!


I want it too


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I want it too


There's a bunch of signed ones, definitely buying one. Man his stuff is dirt cheap to buy, same with Sweet Pea's stuff for some reason. Oskee and Floyd? :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Floyd's rookie card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-Browns...161140070752?pt=US_Boxing&hash=item2584b25960


----------



## turbotime

Delahoya and Jones Jr Signed RING MAG! :ibutt!!!! :ibutt!!

Stupid Bowe ruining it! :verysad :ibutt!!!!


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> There's a bunch of signed ones, definitely buying one. Man his stuff is dirt cheap to buy, same with Sweet Pea's stuff for some reason. Oskee and Floyd? :lol:


That's ok though, Roy/Pea >>>


----------



## Hands of Iron

Great to see a Roy highlight vid done so professionally.


----------



## SouthPaw

I got Roy and Sweet Pea's complete boxsets for like $30 total a few years back. Thinking about popping Whitaker's in now.


----------



## Hands of Iron

SouthPaw said:


> I got Roy and Sweet Pea's complete boxsets for like $30 total a few years back. Thinking about popping Whitaker's in now.


In 2009, I bought career sets for:

Roy Jones
Pernell Whitaker
James Toney
Mike McCallum
Thomas Hearns
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr

All stolen a couple years ago when I lent them to someone.


----------



## SouthPaw

Hands of Iron said:


> In 2009, I bought career sets for:
> 
> Roy Jones
> Pernell Whitaker
> James Toney
> Mike McCallum
> Thomas Hearns
> Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
> 
> All stolen a couple years ago when I lent them to someone.


The McCallum and Chavez sets must've been great. Fucking theives


----------



## Hands of Iron

SouthPaw said:


> The McCallum and Chavez sets must've been great. Fucking theives


Yeah :verysad The friend was trusted. someone broke into his house and stole a bunch of his other electronics shit along with them.


----------



## Nick

I like Roy and he had some great wins but come on. 98% of his opponents have no chance of beating anything other than eggs


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah :verysad The friend was trusted. someone broke into his house and stole a bunch of his other electronics shit along with them.


I'd be so fucking pissed. Ive got Holy, Oskee, Pea, Trinidad, Mosley, Leonard, Jones, Ali in my collection. Id love to have a libary but it's too damn easy with the net these days


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I'd be so fucking pissed. Ive got Holy, Oskee, Pea, Trinidad, Mosley, Leonard, Jones, Ali in my collection. Id love to have a libary but it's too damn easy with the net these days


I'm still fucking pissed. I actually wanted to cry.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm still fucking pissed. I actually wanted to cry.


Who steals Whitaker :lol: What a piece of shit.


----------



## turbotime

oh...em....gee.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROY-JONES-J...t=US_Solo_Sports_Fan_Shop&hash=item485c94a08e

I'd walk arround my house in it.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Who steals Whitaker :lol: What a piece of shit.


:rofl

:cry

Toney beat Johnson by at least 2 points, 3 by me.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> :cry
> 
> Toney beat Johnson by at least 2 points, 3 by me.


Watching it tonight before I go out on the boozer :deal

Speaking of Johnson, I remember you asked about Jones' dad, and they had a falling out because Jones Sr actually kept bringing reggie around the gym and it pissed Jones off because one day he knew they'd be fighting eachother.

Peep Johnson's KO over Guthrie. one of the best southpaw KO's i've ever seen. Stretchered him and ended a 23 fight career basically


----------



## Hands of Iron

You really do like Reggie, huh? He was kicking James ass the first few rounds.


----------



## OG Wenger

Jones was ridiculously good in his prime. Why did he start fighting cans after a while though? First half of his prime he fought some top fighters, second half of his prime the opponents slowly got worse.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You really do like Reggie, huh? He was kicking James ass the first few rounds.


90s southpaws man. Moorer, Johnson, Nunn, Pea, Naz :err


----------



## turbotime

OG Wenger said:


> Jones was ridiculously good in his prime. Why did he start fighting cans after a while though? First half of his prime he fought some top fighters, second half of his prime the opponents slowly got worse.


Lightheavyweight contenders aren't cans atsch


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> 90s southpaws man. Moorer, Johnson, Nunn, Pea, Naz :err


Today is so fucking wank. :lol: Seriously.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Lightheavyweight contenders aren't cans atsch


Me like 160-168 Roy >>>>>

Tho.

The Griffin/Hill fights were hot shit to start a LHW run, but the essence of Jones is 160-168, as it is for his generational counterpart and I'm not talking about Hopkins.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Me like 160-168 Roy >>>>>
> 
> Tho.
> 
> The Griffin/Hill fights were hot shit to start a LHW run, but the essence of Jones is 160-168, as it is for his generational counterpart and I'm not talking about Hopkins.


:yep

No doubt homie. I just like the fact that he can go 3 divisions from where he started and dominate it for a long spell.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Today is so fucking wank. :lol: Seriously.


It makes me sad, we shouldn't be so embittered at our ages but it's justified. :fire


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :yep
> 
> No doubt homie. I just like the fact that he can go 3 divisions from where he started and dominate it for a long spell.


I think Spinkie is a good case for the #1 H2H LHW although its rather sexy to say Jones 160-175.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I think Spinkie is a good case for the #1 H2H LHW although its rather sexy to say Jones 160-175.


:yep

Jinx is very scary to me for my manz :-( I'd rather talk Spinks at Heavyweight thanks!


----------



## Hands of Iron

Were all about the realness. I love Spinx in that slot bro and I think he deserves it.

Who's 135 though Pea or Dooran?

@the cobra @LittleRed @Lester1583 @bballchump11 @Drew101

Scholars


----------



## Vic

Seems like I posted something here before, don´t know what, but I tell you this, Jones Jr does not impress me more on film than Sugar Ray Leonard!


----------



## turbotime

Get lost @Vic


----------



## 941jeremy

Vic said:


> Seems like I posted something here before, don´t know what, but I tell you this, Jones Jr does not impress me more on film than Sugar Ray Leonard!


I don't see how that's possible. Roy on film looked invincible. SRL looked great.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Get lost @Vic


:lol:


----------



## Vic

941jeremy said:


> I don't see how that's possible. Roy on film looked invincible. SRL looked great.


I don´t think so......Watch Roy vs Castro and tell me how he looked invincible...

This is a bit more impressive to me than Roy vs Pazienza:


----------



## LittleRed

Hands of Iron said:


> Were all about the realness. I love Spinx in that slot bro and I think he deserves it.
> 
> Who's 135 though Pea or Dooran?
> 
> @the cobra @LittleRed @Lester1583 @bballchump11 @Drew101
> 
> Scholars


Duran is my favorite but pea. I think Whitaker is the best guy I've seen on film.


----------



## Drew101

Greatest Lightweight that I've ever seen? Tough call. I think the Duran that vaporized DeJesus in the 3rd go round was pretty freaking incredible. Whitaker's run from 1989-90 is probably just as impressive, but I wonder if Duran would have been extended by Fearless Freddie in the same way that Sweet Pea was when he was at his absolute best. 

Duran the GOAT at 135 that I've seen, by the margin of a single cunt hair.


----------



## turbotime

Yeah, fuck that discussion :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

Don't worry turbotime well circle all the wagons back to Jones with this H2H talk, since he's #1 P4P there for us.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Who's 135 though Pea or Dooran?


Orzubek, obviously.


----------



## Vic

I´m more impressed watching Chavez than Roy, in many occasions as well.....

The best lightweight to me is Whitaker or Duran, to me Carlos Ortiz looks good but not as good as these two (I´m mentioning him because he is often forgotten in the LWs discussions).

Not including Benny or Gans because we don´t have enough footage to judge them like these other guys....


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Don't worry turbotime well circle all the wagons back to Jones with this H2H talk, since he's #1 P4P there for us.


No I just can never make up my mind on the 2 i remember a "Who was more skilled duran or pea" thread at the old house and everyone was like "F this shit" :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

Vic said:


> *I´m more impressed watching Chavez than Roy, in many occasions as well.....*
> 
> The best lightweight to me is Whitaker or Duran, to me Carlos Ortiz looks good but not as good as these two (I´m mentioning him because he is often forgotten in the LWs discussions).
> 
> Not including Benny or Gans because we don´t have enough footage to judge them like these other guys....


Vic is stuntin all over your thread now :lol:


----------



## turbotime

:lol: Vic's losing the plot here :rofl


----------



## Vic

I ain´t joking......






This is so fantastic.


----------



## turbotime

Vic said:


> I ain´t joking......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is so fantastic.


:lol: Roy looked great vs Glen Kelly too didn't he.


----------



## Vic

turbotime said:


> :lol: Roy looked great vs Glen Kelly too didn't he.


As great as this ? Not sure, seriously.....


----------



## SouthPaw

turbotime said:


> oh...em....gee.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROY-JONES-J...t=US_Solo_Sports_Fan_Shop&hash=item485c94a08e
> 
> I'd walk arround my house in it.


Are those the Pazienza trunks? Fuck! No way I'd ever take those off lol.


----------



## turbotime

Vic said:


> As great as this ? Not sure, seriously.....


Give it a watch.


----------



## turbotime

SouthPaw said:


> Are those the Pazienza trunks? Fuck! No way I'd ever take those off lol.


That's what I said I'd be walking around the streets :lol:


----------



## Vic

turbotime said:


> Give it a watch.


Roy is faster than anyone.....but to me, sometimes, he was a little bit inaccurate (not in the Kelly fight or in the Paz, no) but I mentioned the Castro fight before, watch that one again and tell me...
The precision of Chavez is, to me, more impressive than Roy´s speed and reflexes....for example.


----------



## fists of fury

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Is Roy Jones better than this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lucius


If that's the bar, then that in itself speaks volumes about Jones' ability. Many of the criticisms of Roy are justified, but he was a freak of nature at his best.


----------



## turbotime

Vic said:


> Roy is faster than anyone.....but to me, sometimes, he was a little bit inaccurate (not in the Kelly fight or in the Paz, no) but I mentioned the Castro fight before, watch that one again and tell me...
> The precision of Chavez is, to me, more impressive than Roy´s speed and reflexes....for example.


Not to me it isn't. Jones' speed and reflexes (What I call defense/movement and counterpunching) was what won him his biggest fights against better opponents than guys like Rosario/ramirez.


----------



## fists of fury

Hands of Iron said:


> I like Roy too. I do.
> 
> I just can't love him the same way I do Robinson, Pea, Tyson, Duran, Floyd.


Yeah, me too. I'm fairly dispassionate towards Roy really, I'm not entirely sure why. That's not to say I don't rate him or that I don't recognize his amazing talents, but I just could never feel passionate about him in any way.


----------



## turbotime

Damn his amateur stuff too.


----------



## the cobra

Duran over Pea by the slightest of margins.

To help getting things back on track, for the sake of @*turbotime*, I'll say this about Roy Jones: Spinks knocks him out.


----------



## turbotime

Hard to say. Their intangibles are so amazing it's tough to know what would happen in a fight with them. Jones beats everyone on Spinks' 175 lb ledger though and vice versa.


----------



## fists of fury

I still have this issue at home, somewhere. One of the last B.I. magazines I bought before I stopped collecting.


----------



## turbotime

fists of fury said:


> I still have this issue at home, somewhere. One of the last B.I. magazines I bought before I stopped collecting.


It's signed?!!?


----------



## the cobra

turbotime said:


> Hard to say. Their intangibles are so amazing it's tough to know what would happen in a fight with them. Jones beats everyone on Spinks' 175 lb ledger though and vice versa.


I just think with Spinks' range, control of distance, relatively awkward approach and timing that he'd be able to drop the right hand on Roy pretty flush quite successfully throughout the fight. That's a serious knockout shot against a guy who's prime chin will always be a mystery. Spinks would be landing clean far more frequently than anyone actually managed in Roy's prime, I have very little doubts about that, and he was a real puncher.

I think it's far less likely that Roy stops Spinks, and that leaves him up against a hard man to outpoint. It's the only fight at 175 in which I'd call Roy a clear underdog.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Stop it Tommy your lying eyes can't be trusted.
> 
> "Corrales was shot when Floyd fought him" :rofl


wow nice late response

Simply said Jones didnt do enough at 160 for anyone to say this, he would get his shit pushed in against Hagler for example

but nah i disagree with you on almost everything so i can say the same damn thing. you think Broner beats pacquiao lol :rofl:rofl:rofl


----------



## turbotime

the cobra said:


> I just think with Spinks' range, control of distance, relatively awkward approach and timing that he'd be able to drop the right hand on Roy pretty flush quite successfully throughout the fight. That's a serious knockout shot against a guy who's prime chin will always be a mystery. Spinks would be landing clean far more frequently than anyone actually managed in Roy's prime, I have very little doubts about that, and he was a real puncher.
> 
> I think it's far less likely that Roy stops Spinks, and that leaves him up against a hard man to outpoint. It's the only fight at 175 in which I'd call Roy a clear underdog.


It was awkward, but with a guy like Jones who could get inside and out so quick and how Spinks dips down a lot to fire up and down shots gives Jones a lot of openings. Especially over the top with shots when Spinks leaves his jab out there a lot to "probe" for shots spooks me a bit.

Maybe it's because I think Jones hits a lot harder than people give him credit for. And Maybe i'm wrong, which is why it's a tough one for me to choose.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> wow nice late response
> 
> Simply said Jones didnt do enough at 160 for anyone to say this, he would get his shit pushed in against Hagler for example
> 
> but nah i disagree with you on almost everything so i can say the same damn thing. you think Broner beats pacquiao lol :rofl:rofl:rofl


Never said that once hombre.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Never said that once hombre.


you implied it by saying that Bradley is the only one at 147 who (maybe) beats Broner besides Floyd

you also tried to compare shot Mosley to a very capable version of Walcott


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> you implied it by saying that Bradley is the only one at 147 who (maybe) beats Broner besides Floyd
> 
> you also tried to compare shot Mosley to a very capable version of Walcott


I never implied that at all. That fight isn't available since Pac is loyal to HBO. Do you even watch boxing these days?

You asked for a better version of Walcott and I gave you the one that KTFO of Charles :deal Or you gonna deny that too.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> I never implied that at all. That fight isn't available since Pac is loyal to HBO. Do you even watch boxing these days?
> 
> You asked for a better version of Walcott and I gave you the one that KTFO of Charles :deal Or you gonna deny that too.


The fight can still happen if there is enough money/interest in it

pretty sure Broner once said something like "I am a HBO fighter, but a showtime affiliate" or something like that

also they are virtually the same fighter, walcott was basically a late bloomer in life despite his style, it just so happens that Walcott won that fight so you think he looked better on film


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> The fight can still happen if there is enough money/interest in it
> 
> pretty sure Broner once said something like "I am a HBO fighter, but a showtime affiliate" or something like that
> 
> also they are virtually the same fighter, walcott was basically a late bloomer in life despite his style, it just so happens that Walcott won that fight so you think he looked better on film


Virtually the same..... except one was older, slower, and got KTFO twice in a row


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Not to me it isn't. Jones' speed and reflexes (What I call defense/movement and counterpunching) was what *won him his biggest fights against better opponents than guys like Rosario/ramirez*.


Like who??? :hey :hey

Jones is a farce without that validation, homes!


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Virtually the same..... except one was older, slower, and got KTFO twice in a row


slower if u are splitting hairs

in my opinion he looked more impressive against Marciano up until the TKO rather than Charles which was basically up in the air until the KO.. both had their moments in that fight

the difference is that Maricano was better than Charles at the time & at the respective weight class, and was more powerful which resulted in the KO


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> slower if u are splitting hairs
> 
> in my opinion he looked more impressive against Marciano up until the TKO rather than Charles which was basically up in the air until the KO.. both had their moments in that fight
> 
> the difference is that Maricano was better than Charles at the time & at the respective weight class, and was more powerful which resulted in the KO


Marciano was catching up to Walcott and old bones couldn't deal with the pressure. Walcott is faster than almost any version of marciano, yet who landed the right first?


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Marciano was catching up to Walcott and old bones couldn't deal with the pressure. Walcott is faster than almost any version of marciano, yet who landed the right first?


That has to do with timing rather than speed plus the fact that Rocky was always going to be stronger than Walcott

suggesting that the fact that he was old is pretty dumb, he was basically coming off 2 great wins over Charles & still looked to be in great shape

Him getting stopped by rocky in the fashion that he did has little do with age, it's basically a testament to Rocky's toughness and power

That suzie q was no joke


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> That has to do with timing rather than speed plus the fact that Rocky was always going to be stronger than Walcott
> 
> suggesting that the fact that he was old is pretty dumb, he was basically coming off 2 great wins over Charles & still looked to be in great shape
> 
> Him getting stopped by rocky in the fashion that he did has little do with age, it's basically a testament to Rocky's toughness and power
> 
> That suzie q was no joke


So how about Floyd just adjusting and nullifying Mosley after Mosley had him buckled and wobbling all over? Nothing to do with age though pffft.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> So how about Floyd just adjusting and nullifying Mosley after Mosley had him buckled and wobbling all over? Nothing to do with age though pffft.


well yeah I give Floyd props for that, you have to because Mosley would have possibly knocked him out if he didn't adjust

the difference is that Rocky took 13 rounds to adjust & find the answer and Floyd took 1 round to figure out Mosley's jab to the body- overhand right combination

a prime Mosley would have finished Floyd off right there, but he didn't have the speed & accuracy to do it

the difference between the fights is quite evident, Floyd dominated Mosley after that second round while Walcott had the better of the first fight with Rocky until the Suzie Q caught up with him.


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> well yeah I give Floyd props for that, you have to because Mosley would have possibly knocked him out if he didn't adjust
> 
> the difference is that Rocky took 13 rounds to adjust & find the answer and Floyd took 1 round to figure out Mosley's jab to the body- overhand right combination
> 
> *a prime Mosley would have finished Floyd off right there*, but he didn't have the speed & accuracy to do it
> 
> the difference between the fights is quite evident, Floyd dominated Mosley after that second round while Walcott had the better of the first fight with Rocky until the Suzie Q caught up with him.


Really pretty insane to ponder


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Really pretty insane to ponder


it's true, I think he would have done it tbh


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> well yeah I give Floyd props for that, you have to because Mosley would have possibly knocked him out if he didn't adjust
> 
> the difference is that Rocky took 13 rounds to adjust & find the answer and Floyd took 1 round to figure out Mosley's jab to the body- overhand right combination
> *
> a prime Mosley would have finished Floyd off right there, but he didn't have the speed & accuracy to do it*
> 
> the difference between the fights is quite evident, Floyd dominated Mosley after that second round while Walcott had the better of the first fight with Rocky until the Suzie Q caught up with him.


Maybe he wouldn't have caught pirme Floyd with that shot. you just can not see strraight when it comes down to Mayweather can you :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Like who??? :hey :hey
> 
> Jones is a farce without that validation, homes!


:ibutt!!!! :ibutt!! Thank god for Hopkins and JT :happy


----------



## Unloco

great thread turbo time , I agree with you


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :ibutt!!!! :ibutt!! Thank god for Hopkins and JT :happy


You always knew they were important but ever before really thought about how bad it would hurt without? He'd still have all his abilities and dominance, but with No JT/BHop?? :-( What an empty feeling. Those are better than Floyd's or Chavez's. Pacquiao too imo.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You always knew they were important but ever before really thought about how bad it would hurt without? He'd still have all his abilities and dominance, but with No JT/BHop?? :-( What an empty feeling. Those are better than Floyd's or Chavez's. Pacquiao too imo.


I agree, damn. It'd be like watching prime Gamboa.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I agree, damn. It'd be like watching prime Gamboa.


Are they not better than Pea's of Chavez/McGirt and/or Nelson who was never a LW, much less an ATG one?

Ooh am going to bat for your boy. Chavez was no welter either.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Are they not better than Pea's of Chavez/McGirt and/or Nelson who was never a LW, much less an ATG one?
> 
> Ooh am going to bat for your boy. Chavez was no welter either.


:lol: :happy :happy

Honestly, no fanboy but it's damn hard to come across a better h2h fighter with better top heavy wins like that.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :lol: :happy :happy
> 
> Honestly, no fanboy but it's damn hard to come across a better h2h fighter with better top heavy wins like that.


No fanboy either but McCallum/Nunn >= Pea, Chavez, Hopkins, Pacman, Floyd top two.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> No fanboy either but McCallum/Nunn >= Pea, Chavez, Hopkins, Pacman, Floyd top two.


What do you consider Hopkins' top 2? Trinidad (p4p#1) and Tarver maybe? Fuck Tarver. I agree.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Defo Trinidad, but I wouldnt consider him better at MW than Nunn or McCallum really either.


----------



## the cobra

Welterweight Chavez > Drained Toney

Smaller Nelson = Inexperienced B-Hop


Worship the Pea.


----------



## fists of fury

turbotime said:


> It's signed?!!?


I wish it was. :smile


----------



## turbotime

the cobra said:


> Welterweight Chavez > Drained Toney
> 
> Smaller Nelson = Inexperienced B-Hop
> 
> Worship the Pea.












Heaven forbid Toney had to exercise to make weight


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Defo Trinidad, but I wouldnt consider him better at MW than Nunn or McCallum really either.


Fair really. The nature of the win was insane though. Did you watch that one live? I think that was my first big upset to watch live.


----------



## Hands of Iron

the cobra said:


> Welterweight Chavez > Drained Toney
> 
> Smaller Nelson = Inexperienced B-Hop
> 
> Worship the Pea.


Toney's top wins really ARE The Shit as you alluded to before.

Oh McCallum was a better 154... Too bad he had a trio of excellent victories at 160 before the Toney fight and was favored.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Fair really. The nature of the win was insane though. Did you watch that one live? I think that was my first big upset to watch live.


Yes I did :smile


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Maybe he wouldn't have caught pirme Floyd with that shot. you just can not see strraight when it comes down to Mayweather can you :lol:


I think he very well could have, its not so unreasonable to think that prime mosley would have the potential to hurt and stop floyd, to me he certainly would have a big chance

Prime mosley wouldve been exploding on floyd with blistering combos, he hardly did in their actual match.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Yes I did :smile


So epic :cry


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Heaven forbid Toney had to exercise to make weight


Toney a G.


----------



## tommygun711

Also toney would've decisively beat hopkins had they fought prime for prime


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Toney a Glutton.


----------



## Hands of Iron

:verysad

Roy Jones a G(lass Jaw)



Toney is so much more gully, hard knox, old school, real boxing skill


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy Jones tha G(OAT)


----------



## Hands of Iron

Hands of Iron said:


> :verysad
> 
> Roy Jones a G(lass Jaw)
> 
> Toney is so much more gully, hard knox, old school, real boxing skill


As is BHop, Toney is just 20x more entertaining about it.


----------



## turbotime

Ok I made a rye and coke and am about to score Johnson/Toney 

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?25650-Christmas-Countdown!!&p=699446&viewfull=1#post699446


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Ok I made a rye and coke and am about to score Johnson/Toney
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?25650-Christmas-Countdown!!&p=699446&viewfull=1#post699446


Sans any funny business please. Toney won that fight.


----------



## the cobra

turbotime said:


> Heaven forbid Toney had to exercise to make weight


It's not something he enjoys doing.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Toney put in work in the gym (predominantly sparring), its mostly a dietary and endomorphic issue that hurt.


----------



## turbotime

No one likes to diet. I'm just glad he was hydrated the night of the fight.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> No one likes to diet. I'm just glad he was hydrated the night of the fight.


He was eating what he wanted even in the picture in my avatar.


----------



## Hands of Iron

@turbotime I've been considering going all Klompton on his career :lol: All of the guys in my top five favs like Tyson, Duran, Floyd, Robbo etc are or have been covered to death so theres really no point.


----------



## turbotime

Do it man, James deserves it. You have enough of everything really with interviews, fight reports, James even does that best he ever fought in RING mag. It'd be a great read.

Also this fight is fucking aces man they are looking to KO eachother but their skills evade it.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Do it man, James deserves it. You have enough of everything really with interviews, fight reports, James even does that best he ever fought in RING mag. It'd be a great read.
> 
> Also this fight is fucking aces man they are looking to KO eachother but their skills evade it.


Had Toney down 30-26 through 3! :yikes Think I gave Reggie only the 10th afyer that


----------



## turbotime

1 - Jonhson 10-9
2 - Jonhson 10-8
3 - Johnson 10-9 
4- 9-10 - T
5 - 9-10 - T


----------



## Hands of Iron

Finally ditched that Oscar get up


----------



## turbotime

Finally? Oscar is a g :verysad

In support of his next fight with Bobby Gunn.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Had Toney down 30-26 through 3! :yikes Think I gave Reggie only the 10th afyer that


You were being generous to TOney then.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Finally? Oscar is a g :verysad
> 
> In support of his next fight with Bobby Gunn.


Nah man he has to go for good.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Finally? Oscar is a g :verysad
> 
> In support of his next fight with Bobby Gunn.


hopefully he gets KO'd m8


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah man he has to go for good.


Nope. Never.


----------



## turbotime

This fight just made me bitter. What a fight. Johnson blew a lot early getting KO happy (what a KD) and Toney should've had one himself. What a fight, they landed bombs on eachother and even missing they still fired with Bombs. 


I had the winner by 1 point when the scoring was tallied.





and STILLLLLLLLLLLLL! James Lights Out Toneyyyyyyy!!!!


----------



## turbotime

1 - Johnson 10-9
2 - Johnson 10-8
3 - Johnson 10-9 
7 - 10 - 9 Johnson
11- 10-9 Johnson

_______________________

4- 9-10 - T
5 - 9-10 - T
6 - 9 - 10 T 
8 - 9-10 T
9 - 9 - 10 T
12 - 9- 10 Toney

10- 10 even to me.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Nice :good

Turboo I really like when you're on the Prime Jones swag those. This is the most interesting topic we ever delve into


----------



## turbotime

I scored the 10th even FYI they were landing bombs and I believe Toney landed against the ropes but then Johnson styled on him and landed a good combo at the end. A real nip and tuck fight when you look at rounds scored. Epic stuff.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Sans any funny business please. Toney won that fight.


Funny business? Jeesh.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> I think he very well could have, its not so unreasonable to think that prime mosley would have the potential to hurt and stop floyd, to me he certainly would have a big chance
> 
> Prime mosley wouldve been exploding on floyd with blistering combos, he hardly did in their actual match.


And it's not so unreasonable that Walcott just shuts Marciano out at his best too since he "was schooling" Marciano before he was KTFO. :lol: @ late bloomer though. Walcott was an old heavyweight fighting other old former middleweights and light heavies.

If Walcott was blooming late than the other petals were wrinkly and hanging years prior.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Funny business? Jeesh.


:bart


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :bart


My scores are ALWAYS on point.


----------



## Hands of Iron

I told you Toney won


----------



## turbotime

You act like I hate Toney :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

You do, and you treat him unfairly.









:lol: <---- me unable to hold back smiling. Never see a picture of it though ever.


----------



## turbotime

Did you catch that little girl at ringside? So sad...here is the story. James flew them in to all his fights

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1003583/3/index.htm



I think they showed her around round 3 or 4 during the Johnson fight


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Did you catch that little girl at ringside? So sad...here is the story. James flew them in to all his fights
> 
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1003583/3/index.htm
> 
> 
> 
> I think they showed her around round 3 or 4 during the Johnson fight


Peep


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Peep


You know they kept him sane. Crazy that Jackie signed him outta nowhere.


----------



## Hands of Iron

He was grubbing at that dinner table :lol:


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> And it's not so unreasonable that Walcott just shuts Marciano out at his best too since he "was schooling" Marciano before he was KTFO. :lol: @ late bloomer though. Walcott was an old heavyweight fighting other old former middleweights and light heavies.
> 
> If Walcott was blooming late than the other petals were wrinkly and hanging years prior.


The thing is Walcott was virtually at his best though. you just keep spewing and repeating the same garbage that doesn't make any sense. He was able to retain his style & speed at the weight he was at. Walcott was doing quite well against Rocky, whether he was schooling him is a matter of you just splitting hairs because he was clearly & I mean CLEARLY winning. You keep, like, switching debates when you get cornered/don't make sense to you.

Walcott is just as sharp & focused there as he is on any other fights on film. he is no faster in the Charles KO or slower. basically the same, except a couple years older. Again, you just splitting hairs as usual.

The point is if an Old Mosley was able to get to mayweather with a couple right hands you can bet your ass a younger version would do the same damn thing and maybe even more. But you'll say that Mayweather would be sharper/faster and more able to avoid getting caught/hurt by Mosley at all, which is just more garbage like usual.


----------



## Hands of Iron

How the fuck did you guys get on Walcott?? Its irritating


----------



## LittleRed

Walcott has a losing record against ranked fighters. Even Zarate has a better record.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> The thing is Walcott was virtually at his best though. you just keep spewing and repeating the same garbage that doesn't make any sense. He was able to retain his style & speed at the weight he was at. Walcott was doing quite well against Rocky, whether he was schooling him is a matter of you just splitting hairs because he was clearly & I mean CLEARLY winning. You keep, like, switching debates when you get cornered/don't make sense to you.
> 
> Walcott is just as sharp & focused there as he is on any other fights on film. he is no faster in the Charles KO or slower. basically the same, except a couple years older. Again, you just splitting hairs as usual.
> 
> The point is if an Old Mosley was able to get to mayweather with a couple right hands you can bet your ass a younger version would do the same damn thing and maybe even more. But you'll say that Mayweather would be sharper/faster and more able to avoid getting caught/hurt by Mosley at all, which is just more garbage like usual.


Yeah I'm so irrational that calling a younger guy like Mosley old, and calling a fighter with less fights like Mosley old, fighting prime, P4P welterweights at their best weights and winning in their prime - old, is somehow as bad as you calling a guy with 20 losses and almost 10 by KO a late bloomer :lol: by "virtually being the same" against former light heavyweights and old heavyweights :rofl

Get off his sack already please youre looking like an idiot.
YOU were the one who said it was a schooling against Marciano. Don't put words in my mouth, then try and deflect when I call you out on it.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> How the fuck did you guys get on Walcott?? Its irritating


He said Corrales was shot when Mayweather fought him and I laughed at him and he got mad.

So he countered with the argument I made that Mosley and Walcott were around the same figure, when they got their lesson from rock and Mayweather.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> *He said Corrales was shot when Mayweather fought him* and I laughed at him and he got mad.
> 
> So he countered with the argument I made that Mosley and Walcott were around the same figure, when they got their lesson from rock and Mayweather.


Tommy :-(

Don't think his stock had ever really been higher. Floyd wasn't even favored.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Tommy :-(
> 
> Don't think his stock had ever really been higher. Floyd wasn't even favored.


He had "wars" with John Brown though :rofl

(Corrales won 11-1)


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Yeah I'm so irrational that calling a younger guy like Mosley old, and calling a fighter with less fights like Mosley old, fighting prime, P4P welterweights at their best weights and winning in their prime - old, is somehow as bad as you calling a guy with 20 losses and almost 10 by KO a late bloomer :lol: by "virtually being the same" against former light heavyweights and old heavyweights :rofl


The difference is that there is film of Mosley getting beat again and again, there is little to no film of Walcott's earlier career so there is nothing to compare the film we have to a younger Walcott. It seems like based on what we DO have that Walcott got more experienced and that only helped him in the long run, Mosley's kind of style doesn't favor longevity while Walcott's certainly does. Walcott may have had losses but he still put on the performance of his life against Rocky, a performance pretty much unparalleled in his entire career. You can tell that regardless of the opponent they were fighting Walcott was much more sharper at that stage than Mosley was who was completely reliant on his power. Obviously it is easier to look better against Rocky than Floyd, but still I'm sure you get the point.



> Get off his sack already please youre looking like *and *idiot.





> and





> and


:lol::rofl:rofl:rofl


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> The difference is that there is film of Mosley getting beat again and again, there is little to no film of Walcott's earlier career so there is nothing to compare the film we have to a younger Walcott. It seems like based on what we DO have that Walcott got more experienced and that only helped him in the long run, Mosley's kind of style doesn't favor longevity while Walcott's certainly does. Walcott may have had losses but he still put on the performance of his life against Rocky, a performance pretty much unparalleled in his entire career. You can tell that regardless of the opponent they were fighting Walcott was much more sharper at that stage than Mosley was who was completely reliant on his power. Obviously it is easier to look better against Rocky than Floyd, but still I'm sure you get the point.
> 
> :lol::rofl:rofl:rofl


Walcott got more experienced did he? More experienced at losing maybe.

How much experience did Walcott gain and grow as a huge favorite losing to Ray. Yeah, what a boxing whiz hiding in that old brain of his.

Please stay off of boxrec :lol: This is common knowledge.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Walcott got more experienced did he? More experienced at losing maybe.
> 
> How much experience did Walcott gain and grow as a huge favorite losing to Ray. Yeah, what a boxing whiz hiding in that old brain of his.
> 
> Please stay off of boxrec :lol: This is common knowledge.


I'd compare his experience to the likes of Jose Ribalta. tons of losses but still was always a solid fighter and hard to look good against. Still good enough to take plenty of prospect/punchers the distance. Throughout all of these losses he gained experience like Walcott did and there was little to nothing he hadn't seen before. If Walcott was so shot & old as you're saying there's no way he would give Marciano that much of a fight.

like I said nothing to compare him to so unless he magically looked better in his earlier fights I see no reason to think that he wasn't still a great fighter against rocky, no matter how many losses he sustained


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Tommy :-(
> 
> Don't think his stock had ever really been higher. Floyd wasn't even favored.


watch how he will never defend this statement. Only deflect. :deal

Also he called Montell a bum and "Tommy Griffin" instead :lol: good times. He needs to watch boxing of the last 20 years or else keep it in classic section


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> watch how he will never defend this statement. Only deflect. :deal
> 
> Also he called Montell a bum and "Tommy Griffin" instead :lol: good times. He needs to watch boxing of the last 20 years or else keep it in classic section


I said Montel Griffith actually.. Would love to see you dig up that post tho cause I never said Montell was a bum and I never called him Tommy Griffin... lol


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> I said Montel Griffith actually.. Would love to see you dig up that post tho cause I never said Montell was a bum and I never called him Tommy Griffin... lol


Griffith :lol:

Sorry.

But do you watch boxing these days? Honest question.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Griffith :lol:
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> But do you watch boxing these days? Honest question.


stupid question that i'm not even going to answer, look at my profile/signature for that answer, truth be told I guarantee I watch more modern boxing than you


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> stupid question that i'm not even going to answer, look at my profile/signature for that answer, truth be told I guarantee I watch more modern boxing than you


So tell me about the wars Corrales was in before Mayweather fought him that made him shot.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> So tell me about the wars Corrales was in before Mayweather fought him that made him shot.


Garcia gave him a tough fight even though Corrales basically controlled the entire fight, Manny Castillo gave him a good fight, Morfin roughed him up in the first round, etc. contrary to popular belief Corrales didn't just walk through everyone he faced even though most of his fights were early blow outs


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Garcia gave him a tough fight even though Corrales basically controlled the entire fight, Manny Castillo gave him a good fight, Morfin roughed him up in the first round, etc. contrary to popular belief Corrales didn't just walk through everyone he faced even though most of his fights were early blow outs





tommygun711 said:


> *A washed up version of Corrales? A shopworn Cotto? (who still performed well granted) The problem is that Floyd doesn't have a nemesis the way that Hearns did.* Floyd never ALMOST beat an All Time Great, like hearns almost did to Leonard. AS a matter of fact, you could score the second fight to Hearns.
> 
> Did you just say a SHOT version Mosley is equal as a win over Benitez?? Even a prime version of Mosley would NOT be better than Benitez! Are you kidding me? Hearns won that fight convincingly, it should have been a UD. Benitez> Mosley, they aren't even close to being equal. Get that shit straight man, if you're going to analyze them like this keep in mind that a fucking SHOT version of Mosley is nowhere close to a near-prime Benitez.





turbotime said:


> Washed up Corrales?! Holy fuck me. And in the same breath are giving credit to beating that version of Cuevas.
> 
> Your bias is UNREAL :rofl





tommygun711 said:


> Well, I think Cuevas was better than Corrales at that point. Neither were prime of course. But Cuevas still had SOMETHING. *I feel Corrales was more washed up*.












Cotto was only shopworn but Corrales was washed up. It's great because you believe what you're typing right now.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Cotto was only shopworn but Corrales was washed up. It's great because you believe what you're typing right now.


What I posted still stands, Floyd didn't have a nemesis the way that Hearns did

and Cotto was always going to give floyd a better fight than corrales could


----------



## turbotime

Go to bed youre looking like a fool.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Go to bed youre looking like a fool.


when all else fails resort to insulting i guess

you won't see me get frustrated and stoop to that level lol


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Go to bed youre looking like a fool.


You always say this to European posters :lol:


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> when all else fails resort to insulting i guess
> 
> you won't see me get frustrated and stoop to that level lol


You actually don't watch boxing past 95 do you? Corrales was so washed up he managed to win titles later.........................

what'd Cuevas do again?


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You always say this to European posters :lol:


Is Tommy european!??!?!


----------



## Hands of Iron

Umm, I dunno. Technically, I'm euro too you know.


----------



## turbotime

:rofl No wonder he was one of the first in this thread


----------



## Vic

I gotta say, I think Galindez would beat Roy......


----------



## tommygun711

nope not European m8


----------



## Hands of Iron

Your nemesis @Dealt_with calls Jones one of the greatest he's ever seen. He's not American... I don't think... :huh


----------



## Vic

I´m kidding now though......but obviously Galindez would be super tough as a challenge for Roy.....and althought Roy is the better fighter, Galindez would have a chance.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Your nemesis @Dealt_with calls Jones one of the greatest he's ever seen. He's not American... I don't think... :huh


Ok?


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Ok?


How many European posters don't hate on Roy?


----------



## Dealt_with

Hands of Iron said:


> Your nemesis @Dealt_with calls Jones one of the greatest he's ever seen. He's not American... I don't think... :huh


Nemesis? :huh
I have nothing against turbotime, just because I say that he looks like a more gaunt, more bitch ass version of Bieber doesn't mean I have a problem with him. Just stating what I see.
Roy Jones is the boxer who got me into the sport, he's my favourite fighter of all time.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> How many European posters don't hate on Roy?


It was worse over at ESB and who knows what names theyre under now :conf

it's not about those who don't hate him, its about those who conduct the hate train for whatever reasons


----------



## turbotime

:lol: I'm legitimately with @Dealt_with on this.

I can only go by him being scared to show herself as being a fat pussy (in the worst way) in real life, which means in no way he doesnt know boxing.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Dealt_with I'm joking, man. :lol:


----------



## tommygun711

who is the fighter with the best chance of beating Jones at 160/168 Turbo?


----------



## turbotime

It's tough but Hagler or Nunn for me. I lean towards Nunn because of size. But I like Haglerr's consistent pressure and chin, not to say Nunn wasn't a good boxer puncher.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> It's tough but Hagler or Nunn for me. I lean towards Nunn because of size. But I like Haglerr's consistent pressure and chin, not to say Nunn wasn't a good boxer puncher.


and how well rounded he was, I think that jab would be key in a fight like this


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> and how well rounded he was, I think that jab would be key in a fight like this


Hagler vs all of the 90s Middleweights would be amazing as fuck :jjj


----------



## turbotime

Unloco said:


> great thread turbo time , I agree with you


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Hagler vs all of the 90s Middleweights would be amazing as fuck :jjj


Its OK.


----------



## turbotime

Vic said:


> I´m kidding now though......but obviously Galindez would be super tough as a challenge for Roy.....and althought Roy is the better fighter, Galindez would have a chance.


Shut up Vic.


----------



## Vic

Richie Kates would outbox Roy....


----------



## Vic

Jk again, Roy is obviously great.....(I was not kidding about LEonard and Roy and saying that Leonard impressed me more though)
And what I said about Chavez is true though.......
And Kates would indeed be a very very hard fight for Roy, I mean, that jab of Kates would be hard.....


----------



## turbotime

Vic said:


> Jk again, Roy is obviously great.....(I was not kidding about LEonard and Roy and saying that Leonard impressed me more though)


it's all good man Ray is so great.

roy
Ray
Ray
May
Whitaker

:deal


----------



## turbotime




----------



## turbotime

LOL @ Merchant hating on Roy at 32 minutes 10 seconds, then Roy sparking Malinga with one punch :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl


----------



## tommygun711

are those stories about Jones shitting on Leonard in sparring for the Lalonde fight true?


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> are those stories about Jones shitting on Leonard in sparring for the Lalonde fight true?


Oh who knows about those really. All I read was that Ray saying Jones was faster than he expected and Jones said Leonard as crafty and still quick and great work.

I put about as much stock into that session as Judah/Whitaker sessions.


----------



## turbotime

> *One Tough Bird*
> _*
> Roy Jones Jr., the best boxer pound for pound, was raised under the rules of cockfighting: win or die*_
> 
> Gary Smith
> 
> Even with the three-inch steel spur running through his skull, the Rooster did not forget the secret. Even with the blood fever making the dogs yip and the men close in howling, "It's over! He's dead!" Even with the teenager's nervous fingers trying to yank the metal from the rooster's brain, with the talons of the other rooster at its throat. Even then....
> 
> The boy's heart was beating its way up his throat, but he couldn't show his fear or sorrow for his bird. The boy's father would smell it and carve it to shreds, for one thing, and for another, the boy was 17 and planning to go to the Olympics to fight the best fighters in the world. The triumphant rooster flapped wildly, the blade on one foot ripping the air while the other foot tried madly to extract its blade from the limp bird's head. The teenager held his breath and tried again to disentangle the roosters without getting slashed.
> 
> He could see that the men were right; the spur had entered near one ear and come out near the other. But a shock went through the boy's palms as he finally worked the blade loose: Crazy's heart was still pulsing! "He's alive!" the boy called.
> 
> "Blow on him!" his father shouted. "Keep him warm!"
> 
> The boy blew up and down Crazy's spine and then set him on his feet. Hallelujah, the damn rooster was still itching to fight; the men stared in disbelief. Crazy struck and pulled back, feinting, inviting his enemy in, remembering what most dead cocks hadn't learned: the importance of distance, the significance of space. The other bird lunged, exposed himself...and suddenly was dead, and the boy was whooping, hugging Crazy to his chest.
> 
> By the end of this story the boy will be a man, and there'll be fighting roosters everywhere, hundreds of them in cages all over his land. By the end he'll be known as the best boxer, pound for pound, in the world, 28-0 with 24 knockouts, the super middleweight champion whom some will call the best boxer since Sugar Ray. Not Leonard. Robinson. "Forget Leonard," WBC light heavyweight champion Mike McCallum will say. "This boy is faster than Leonard. He hits harder, and he can knock you out when he's going backwards. You'll see."
> 
> If you, the reader, are asking yourself, Roy Jones Jr.? The best fighter in the world? Why have I barely heard of him?...well, that too, by the end of the story, you will see. You'll know, like the rooster, all you need to know about distance.
> 
> To get there we'll have to travel way out into nowhere, deep into the pine and oak and cornfields 25 miles north of Pensacola, Fla. It's not a place for a fight story-can you name three American champions in the last half century who came from forest and dirt? Boxing is the heart's cry for personal space; everywhere out here there's space. You can't smell desperation here. You won't find any boxing gyms.
> 
> Look closer. Smell again. It's 1979. Down by the washed-out creek bed, in the clearing in the woods behind the little cinder block house on Barth Road, there are pigs, dogs, roosters, a bull, a horse...and a homemade ring. There's a barrel of a man with a dagger tattooed on his arm and a long piece of PVC pipe in his fist. There's a skinny 10-year-old boy. Always remember this: Nothing ever comes from nowhere.
> 
> The boy was five when this started. Big Roy on his knees, cuffing and slapping at Little Roy, taunting him: "What's wrong? Gettin' tired? Told you you were too little. Told you you weren't quick enough. Oh, here we go. You cryin' again? Little girlie-girlie cryin' again?" Yes, Little Roy was crying again, crying rage and frustration at how easily his father dominated him. He would promise his mother every day not to fight Big Roy that night, but then his mind would start imagining new and surprising angles of attack, shocking and unprecedented punches, and by eight o'clock that night, fresh from his bath, he would be flailing and sobbing in his pj's again. It wasn't fair. He had to get close and risk, but his father didn't.
> 
> *Now he's 10, with a fight coming up next week on Pensacola Beach against a 14-year-old who's 16 pounds heavier. Nothing new. Big Roy's always throwing him in over his head, daring him to be a man, preparing him for the cruel sport that he, not Big Roy, has chosen. Didn't Big Roy give him a shotgun at Christmas when he was six, have him driving a tractor when he was seven? "Thought I'd pass out cold when I saw that," the boy's mother, Carol, says. Once when the two Roys were fishing, wading in surf up to Little Roy's chest, Big Roy shouted, "Sharks! Two of 'em!" and the boy dropped his rod and went thrashing for land. "What are you doin'?" the father demanded. "Where's your rod?" Trembling, the boy pointed toward the water. "Go get it," Big Roy said.*
> 
> "But...."
> 
> "Now!"
> 
> In crept Little Roy, certain he was about to be devoured for a fishing rod. Oh, he couldn't swim? A year later, when the boy was eight, Big Roy heaved him into the Gulf of Mexico, water two feet over his head-that'd learn him. He thrust Little Roy onto a horse, then a bull. "Ride 'em," he said. The child, at first, couldn't quite cover his panic. "You're too much like your mother," Big Roy would grumble when Little Roy ran into her arms. "You'll never do nothin' if you're scared."
> 
> Eventually he learned to protect himself. When his father slept he would tie to a fence a horse that others wouldn't ride, and he would conquer it alone. "After a while I didn't care about gettin' hurt or dyin' anymore," he says. "I was in pain all day, every day, I was so scared of my father. He'd pull up in his truck and start lookin' for something I'd done wrong. There was no escape, no excuse, no way out of nothin'. Every day it was the same: school, homework, farmwork, trainin'. Gettin' hurt or dyin' might've been better than the life I was livin'. So I turned into a daredevil. I'd do anything. Didn't make much difference. Used to think about killin' myself anyway."
> 
> The 10-year-old boy feels so alone. Some children are too intimidated by his father to come around but most just live too far away. He makes his alliances with animals. With the dogs that snarl at everyone else. With the bull that he has learned to ride. With the Shetland pony, Coco, that he has taught to rear up, just like the Lone Ranger's Silver. With the goat that followed him onto the school bus in second grade. With the blue-feathered gamecock his father will soon give him. He's always on to the next thing, the little boy, with a restlessness that the open country and the brutal sun can't leach from him. When the train rumbles through the trees not far from his home, Little Roy dreams of leaping onto it and letting it take him...where? Somewhere far from the cinder block house where his father will be returning soon from another day's work as an aircraft electrician at Pensacola Naval Air Station. Somewhere the belt and the switch, the PVC pipe and the extension cord can't reach. "The whippin's didn't last that long," Little Roy's younger half brother, Corey, says. "Maybe 20 minutes."
> 
> Big Roy's a monster, right? Look closer. Smell again. Soon Big Roy will be inviting kids from all over into his makeshift gym. Kids with no playgrounds, no direction, no fathers. Kids from trouble. Soon Big Roy will make sure a retarded boy named Chris gets his turn on the bag and in the ring, will make certain no one insults or bullies him-it's the same impulse that earned Big Roy the Bronze Star in Vietnam for rushing through a veil of bullets to save an ambushed mate. "You could give your two-week-old baby to that man, go on vacation and not think twice," says Doris Grant, an old family friend. "Big Roy'd take care of it." Soon he'll be wolfing down dinner, training the boys from 5 p.m. till 10 or 11, doing the farmwork till midnight, rising at five to go to work again. Soon his paycheck will be vanishing, gone to buy the kids boxing shoes and speed bags and vitamins. Soon he'll be working extra jobs on weekends to finance the kids' trips to tournaments in Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia. Soon he'll be selling the tractor and the hogs so he'll have more time and money for the kids. Going to the dog track with his last two bucks, praying he can turn it into $50 or $60 so they can box on Saturday in Biloxi. His vacations will be a dozen kids jammed into a van, a dozen bologna sandwiches crammed into a bag, creeping home 10 miles under the speed limit so the gas tank doesn't go dry, relying on a piece of wire to hold the door closed so the kids don't all tumble out. He'll be poring over their report cards, patting their heads for A's and B's, cooking crabs and oysters for them on Friday evenings. "Seemed closer to the other kids," says Little Roy, "than he was to me." He'll be selling the farm, moving into Pensacola-giving up his biggest prize, giving up distance. He'll be running the Escambia County Boys Club boxing program in an abandoned building, rigging wires to the power lines outside to pirate electricity, herding everyone to the H&O Cafe a few blocks away when the boys need water and a toilet. Asking folks all over, asking his own sister, for contributions to keep this crazy, cobbled crusade alive.
> 
> That's the hardest thing of all for Big Roy. Asking. Needing. How many years has he gone without seeing a doctor? You're only hurt if you think you're hurt, he keeps telling his boxers and his five children. How many days did he let that pain in his right side go before he staggered into his father's house in Pensacola 14 years ago and sagged to his knees, moaning, "Just tired," waiting for someone to force him into a car and take him to a hospital before his appendix burst?
> 
> There's only one cure for needing: distance. Needing ate you up when you were one of 12 children growing up in a small house under a hard old man like Tippy Jones; needing could possess you, suck your lifeblood away, so move away from it. Where did Big Roy go the day they buried his mother? Four hundred seventy miles away, to Tampa, with one of his boxers. Where did he go at 17, after Tippy challenged him to fight and Big Roy swung a two-by-four at him, then flung it aside and ran rather than swing at his own blood again? To the Job Corps, to Indiana, then to pick fruit on farms all over the West and down to Mexico to box. To fight in small arenas for a few hundred bucks, in barrooms for a twenty, trying to work what was left of the needing out of his blood.
> 
> Where did Big Roy go when his father died? Oh, he nearly crumbled that time. He walked toward the funeral home, heart pounding with memories of Tippy stepping over the bodies of his children asleep on the floor each dawn, going off to work in construction all day and then cutting lawns till after dark. Memories of father words nearly identical to the ones Big Roy uses with his son: "I thought you were a man." Big Roy blinked at the mourners trying to ease him inside the funeral home...and somehow, at the last moment, saved himself. He remained outside. Nearly burned up with fever the next day, but nobody saw him cry.
> 
> O.K., so he made mistakes now and then, got too close to beer, to women, to fists. So he fathered that second son out of wedlock, seven years after Little Roy was born. His firstborn son would remedy all that. Big Roy would make sure of it. His firstborn would be champion of the world one day...from a distance.
> 
> Happy? You're ready for a happy moment? Happy's when Big Roy lumbers into the house after another 14-hour workday, sees Little Roy and his sister Tiffany wriggling around to some R&B and snorts, "You kids don't know how to dance," and then starts doing the Funky Chicken and the Shovel around the room. Really happy? "You never saw Big Roy happier than when he was at a cockfight," says Wilfred Grant, a friend from north of Pensacola. "Happy like a little kid openin' his presents on Christmas mornin'." Happy like a man who's in a place that proves what he always suspected about life, a man in the pit where all complexity vanishes and every male bird has but one choice: conquer or die.
> 
> Little Roy can't help it; he gets swept up in it too. He's in a war for survival, just like the birds, and he's looking everywhere for clues. What makes the blue-gray rooster do what he does that day at the cockfight in Prairieville, La.? What makes him stagger-all but comatose, being pecked and slashed to pieces-to the pit wall, use it like a crutch to hold himself upright and somehow end up killing his opponent at the end of a two-hour war? There's a lesson his father never taught him. Everything can be a survival skill. Even leaning.
> 
> Little Roy goes out in his yard and studies the birds that Big Roy collects. The way the male bitties have to scurry out of the way of their fathers from the day they're born, the way fathers and sons must be placed in separate cages by the time the offspring reach six months so they don't kill one another. It soothes him. Maybe there's nothing so wrong with the way he's growing up. Maybe it's just how God makes fathers and sons.
> 
> He's 15 now, wearing shoes his feet are about to come through. He's learning the game. He won't ask his father for new shoes. He's riding home from three fights in Mississippi, feeling the way roosters who make it out of the pit must feel. Just beat a kid in a high school gym in Ocean Springs, tattooed another at the Air Force base in Biloxi and then polished off one for the road at a golf course in Gulfport-all in one day. His soul emerges in the ring; he struts and preens the way the great fighting roosters do. He *has already won the National Junior Olympics title at 119 pounds. Slick? It's like Jackie Holley, a woman who also trained under Big Roy, says: "Snot and okra had nothin' on Little Roy when it come to slick." His career is so different from the old man's. The boy's opponents barely touch him. He'll be rocked only once, during an amateur fight against Frankie Liles, but won't go down.
> *
> Now it's late, and the other boxers in the van are asleep. The boy hasn't seen or felt any love, can't read it in the way Big Roy's hands get so worried before his son fights, the way they keep double-and triple-checking pockets for tape, scissors, cigarettes. Now's the only time Big Roy will let it squeak out. "Fought good today," he says. That's it. He'll tell his friends and the people he asks for donations that the kid's going to be a world champion, but that's it for the boy.
> 
> Tomorrow Little Roy will be back under the 95° sky and his father's glare, pistoning out the push-ups, skipping rope for up to an hour, sparring eight rounds with no break, fresh partners coming at him every three minutes. Running circles round and round Big Roy's sawed-off broomstick, one finger on its tip, until he's drunk-dizzy, then coming out jabbing, feinting, moving, readying himself for the day when he's staggered by a punch. Bobbing and weaving under the two long crossed boards that bristle with nails to let him know when he makes a mistake. Holding a brick in each hand, arms straight out, for three minutes, four, five.... Doing wind sprints under the interstate that runs through Pensacola on concrete pillars, his father nipping at his heels with the PVC pipe, stinging the backs of his thighs whenever he slows, screaming, "Wanna be a participant-or a kingpin?"
> 
> "Kingpin!"
> 
> "Then what's wrong with you?"
> 
> What is love, anyway? If a man's life has convinced him that the world is a cockfight, then it's love to turn his son into the most powerful cock of all, isn't it? Isn't it? "He'd slap Little Roy, punch him, scream at him," says Nelson Fountain, another of Big Roy's boxers. "You'd never know it was his own son."
> 
> *"Wasn't the ideal way to raise a kid," says Little Roy's mother, Carol. "But I can't say it was bad." Can't say because there was so much closeness in Carol that it balanced Big Roy's distance. "Any other boy," says Tiffany, "would've run away." One thing holds Little Roy to the fire. He senses that it's baking something hard and lasting. He knows that if he runs, he'll be an average man. *Average like the opponents wilting in front of him just when he's beginning to feel that terrifying surge come through his arms and wrists. "I prayed to God, just don't let me be average," he says. "Let me be great at something." Because? "Because I knew if I was average, he'd dominate me all my life."
> 
> *So he doesn't run away. He doesn't argue. He just carries a switchblade. A switchblade and a dread, growing each day as he draws nearer to manhood, that he's going to have to use the blade against his father. "He'd keep screamin' in my face in front of people, tryin' to pick a fight with me, just to prove he could still beat me," says Little Roy. "But I wasn't gonna fight him. I had too much respect to fight him. I'd just kill him. Or he'd kill me. That's the fear I had in my heart."*
> 
> Here's his chance. The shadow's gone. Little Roy's in a dorm in Seoul, Korea, a million miles from his father's house. No Big Roy in his corner. No Big Roy in the gym. Can't even hear Big Roy hollering from the stands when Little Roy enters the ring in the 1988 Summer Olympics.
> 
> "Finally in my own world, by myself, like any other man," Little Roy says. It's an amphetamine, this freedom. He can't sit still. Can't sit with his teammates in the chow room, can't sit with them in the TV room, can't ride the bus with them to functions. It seems strange to the others, especially since, at 19, he's the youngest member of the team. "Where's Roy?" they keep asking. He's hurrying to the gym to do what his father wouldn't let him do before fights: play hoops. He's talking to girls. He's doing roadwork two or three times a day, dashing into the boxing gym at 11 p.m. to squeeze in extra workouts-because he has chosen to. He senses what's at stake. To win a boxing gold medal, you must be a man. Your own man.
> 
> He makes a new friend, an assistant coach on the U.S. team named Alton Merkerson. Smart as hell, a Vietnam vet, with the oddest notion Little Roy's ever heard from a boxing trainer. Having noticed that Roy doesn't turn over his fist as he's finishing his left hook-the classic way a hook is delivered-Merkerson doesn't try to change Roy's punch. Instead he suggests that Roy consider adding the turned-over hook to his arsenal. No ultimatums. No PVC pipes. A "democratic" trainer, Merk calls himself. Roy files it away. That's two people he can turn to if he ever gathers the guts for the showdown with his father. There'll be Coach Merk to train him...and Stanley Levin, the affectionate, curly-haired Pensacola lawyer whose money and sweat have helped keep the Boys Club boxing program alive, to help Little Roy financially and to hug him like a father.... He catches himself. No time for daydreaming now. There's business to be done.
> 
> He's awesome in the preliminary rounds. "You're different from the other American boxers," a member of the U.S. women's basketball team tells him. "They all look like they're in a war. You don't get hit. It's like you're floating in and out." There, but not there-just what his teammates have noticed about him outside the ring. During meetings they notice something else. Even though he's the youngest, the kid from the sticks, it's as if he's the oldest. As if he has been through a furnace even hotter than the ghetto fighters have. They start turning to him for advice. Little Roy becomes the leader.
> 
> In his second bout he devastates a Czechoslovakian fighter, scoring two standing eight counts, winning a 5-0 decision. The U.S. boxers spill out of the locker room to greet friends and relatives. There's Big Roy. "You're not throwin' enough punches!" he shouts at his son. Little Roy wants to crawl down a hole.
> 
> "He's been too quiet, there hasn't been any ionization," Big Roy tells a reporter. "You touch him, you don't get that spark coming off. I'm going to get him some electricity."
> 
> It's humming through Little Roy-it's just not Big Roy's juice. He cruises to the final, where he's brilliant once more. He takes apart South Korea's Park Si Hun, scores a standing eight count, out punches Park 86 to 32...and loses the gold-medal decision 3-2. What? It's incomprehensible. The judges who voted against him will be banned from officiating international amateur matches for two years, 50 Korean monks will come to Roy to express their shame, and he'll be voted the outstanding boxer of the Games-but the decision stands. Little Roy's chance is gone. Big Roy consoles his son. Sympathy is power too.
> 
> By the end of this story Little Roy will have taken a dozen young men under his wing, kids from all over, kids from trouble, just as his father had done before him. He and his company, Square Ring, will have bought an old house in Pensacola and converted it into a clubhouse, with a gym and a billiards room and a big kitchen and with bedrooms upstairs to lodge boxers. It'll be his dad's dream, what he hammered and nailed and begged for all those years, but his dad won't be there.
> 
> By the end there'll be a 26-year-old champion going out into the Pensacola community relentlessly, appearing almost compulsively at charily events, high school banquets and grade school classrooms, reaching outward, perhaps, for what he cannot grasp close by.
> 
> There are virtually no good stories to tell in the history of boxing fathers and sons. There are the stories of Joe and Marvis Frazier, of Bill and Buster Douglas, of Bob and Tony Tucker. Stories of the Howard Davises, of the Tony Ayalas and of the Bob Czyzes, Srs. and Jrs. Tales of recklessness and overcaution, of jail terms and shattered promise. A great fighter is a man alone on a path. He must feel that he is the maker, not the made. He must feel that he fathered himself.
> 
> They begin arriving soon after Little Roy returns from Korea, offering themselves to take Big Roy's place. Leonard and his lawyer, Mike Trainer. Butch Lewis, Lou Duva and Emanuel Steward. Little Roy stares at the scar on his forearm from a childhood whipping, closes his eyes, draws a deep breath. He's ready to sign with Steward-a contract calling for $300,000, a car, a house and a horse for Roy Jr.; $60,000 for Roy Sr.; and a $25,000 trust fund for educating Roy's siblings-and then he goes to his mother. Carol knows what this will do to her husband. "Your father got you this far," she says. "Give him a chance." How can Little Roy say no? He remains beneath his father's thumb.
> 
> Big Roy's got a plan. He's not going to do this with city cats, with insiders, with boxing big shots-some of whom are the very same guys who threw him to the wolves for a few pieces of silver when he was a boxer 15 years before. He's going to take the country road. He's going to hit the jackpot without ever entering the casino. Square Ring Inc. is formed. Levin, the local lawyer, will arrange for the fight sites, handle the ticket sales and line up the undercards. His brother Fred, one of America's top trial attorneys in earnings, will negotiate with the sharks and help bankroll the operation till the big money rolls in. But Big Roy will call all the shots: Who Little Roy will fight, when, where and how, and what'll be served at the postfight party. He'll decide where Little Roy will live-in a trailer right next to Big Roy. Rather than risk a showdown, Little Roy won't even attend Square Ring meetings.
> 
> There's one immediate problem. Nobody in Square Ring has ever walked in the snake-infested swamp of big-time professional boxing. Big Roy looks around for a consultant, someone who knows the inside-but from the outside. He hires Harold Smith, a former boxing promoter fresh from five years in prison for embezzling $21.3 million from Wells Fargo Bank.
> 
> The arrangement goes smoothly for the first four fights. Two are nationally televised, NBC playing the story of the cheated Olympian like a Stradivarius. Little Roy TKO's all four opponents. People call him the next Sugar Ray Leonard. No outsider knows about the day he comes to the gym coughing, so feverish he's hot to touch, and Big Roy growls, "He's sparrin'. Glove him up!" No outsider sees Little Roy take out his anguish on three straight partners, pounding the third one to the floor, waiting for him to rise and continuing to pummel him even after Big Roy shouts, "Stop! That's enough!" No outsider hears Little Roy hiss, "Get him out of here if you want me to stop." No outsider sees him walk silently out of the ring and out of the gym as his father pulls the dazed sparring partner away.
> 
> What everyone sees is Roy's star quality, the way he shimmies into the ring wearing shiny costumes, leaps onto the ropes and pumps his fists. The way he dances around his opponents, watching, waiting for their vulnerability. The way they begin to stalk him, thinking they know his kind, and then are stunned to find themselves being hit with left hooks that no dancer should be throwing. Punches arriving from improbable angles, in preposterous sequences, blurring even in slomo: four left hooks in a row; no, that's five; or is it six? What are his hands doing down by his hips, why's he leading with hooks instead of jabs? Doesn't he know those things can get a boxer killed? But no, he's so blindingly quick, he gets away with murder-and commits it at the same time.
> 
> It's clear what Big Roy needs to do, and everyone tells him so. He needs to align with a big-name promoter like Bob Arum or Don King, needs to take fights in big cities, needs to fight better opponents to put the boy on track for a title fight. Whoops. That's the wrong word. Each time Big Roy hears need, his eyes cloud, and he takes another step back.
> 
> "Everybody expects us to keep going forward, but we're tricking them," he tells Fred Levin. "We're pulling back." Maybe it's because the son's about to eclipse the father. Maybe the father truly believes that lame and celebrity, if they come too young, will weaken his son. Maybe he can't bear risking the chance that one day he will find himself sitting in the corner, helpless, watching another man bludgeon his child's head. And maybe it's that word, that wrong word everyone keeps using. This is real life; it's probably all of those maybes together.
> 
> Suddenly, the man who chucked his son into the Gulf of Mexico won't let him near a puddle. Little Roy's next 11 fights, from the autumn of 1989 through the late summer of '91, last an average of 2½ rounds. Ten of them are in Pensacola, and all draw fewer than 2,500 fans. One opponent, Derwin Richards, turns out to be an impostor named Tony Waddles. Another opponent, Ricky Stackhouse, has lost five of his last 10 fights and is under medical suspension in New York. Then comes Lester Yarbrough, loser of seven of his previous 10.
> 
> The boxing world scoffs. Big Roy flares: "Boys don't win world championships. Men do.... He's not ready. You don't give a kid $2 million and the prestige of a world title. Otherwise you end up with a Mike Tyson.... If I'm gonna be blackballed for lookin' after my son, well then, go ahead. Call me ********!" And gradually the boxing world loses interest. "An invisible fighter," ABC boxing commentator Alex Wallau calls Little Roy.
> 
> Little Roy's scared. His career is three years old and already fading. He calls Merkerson and repeats what he says every four or five months: "Remember, Coach Merk, don't tie yourself up. I might need you." Finally he gets a fight with a name fighter in a name city: Jorge Vaca in January 1992 in New York. He annihilates Vaca in the first round. He watches his father rubbing elbows with the half-dozen Pensacola buddies whose airfares he has paid with Little Roy's earnings and doling out $500 to each of them to enjoy the Big Apple for an extra day. Who knows, maybe Big Roy's taking less of a cut than other managers-but if he would just explain the decisions to Little Roy, just give his son some voice....
> 
> The tension grows. One night a dog attacks a couple of Little Roy's gamecocks outside his trailer. He and friends fire shots to scare off the dog, and Big Roy, uneasy with the gunshots, shouts over that if there's any more shooting, shots will be coming back. Suddenly the son and the father are screaming, threatening to turn their guns on each other, and Carol's begging Little Roy to go back to his trailer and stop this madness.
> 
> During training, the air between the two men sizzles, two decades coming to the skin and lying there like sweat. It's hot that day in June 1992. The Rottweiler, the one that Little Roy has borrowed from a friend for breeding, ducks under Roy's trailer and stares out, panting. Big Roy has never seen the Rottweiler before, and what he doesn't know makes him uneasy. "If he growls at me," he has warned Corey, "I'll kill him."
> 
> Little Roy's out in his Jeep with friends. Here comes his sister, eight-year-old Catandrea, running toward his door. The flapping legs and arms startle the dog. He bolts from under the trailer and leaps at the little girl. His teeth rip into her arm. Big Roy hears her scream, grabs his shotgun and comes out on the run.
> 
> There's Corey, tearing the dog away, lashing it to a tree. There's Carol, scooping Catandrea into a car, rushing off to a hospital. Big Roy looks at the dog on the leash and lifts the shotgun. He squeezes the trigger three times, then walks away. He returns a few minutes later with a Glock 9-mm pistol. Two more bullets go into the dog's head.
> 
> It doesn't take long for the news to find Little Roy: that his sister's safe, with a dozen stitches. That his friend's Rottweiler has been killed-not in the act of attacking Catandrea, when Little Roy, too, might have shot it, but afterward, on a leash. And it runs through him: This is it. This stands for everything. This is it.
> 
> He's in the passenger seat of his Jeep, a friend driving, as they roll up in front of the trailer. They stare at the dead dog. A 9-mm Beretta lies in Little Roy's lap. Two sentences lie in his head: I'd rather be dead than take this anymore. I'd rather be in prison.
> 
> His father, in his own car, rolls up alongside the Jeep. He says nothing about Catandrea. "I killed your dog," he says. It hangs there in the air, so matter-of-fact, so loaded with challenge. Little Roy cradles the gun. A moment passes. "Let's go," he finally tells his friend.
> 
> Distance is seldom the bent of the great knockout punchers. Their nature draws them nearer and nearer to that which prickles their fear and temper, their confusion and lust, as if sensing that they cannot wreak havoc without ingesting it first. So they keep wading in-outside the ring as surely as inside it-sacrificing perspective for destruction until the price grows too steep. You could look that up.
> 
> What are we to make of Roy Jones Jr. then? Here we have an aberration, a knockout puncher who virtually never gets hit, a fighter who devastates from afar. One whose refuge, when the pressure upon him builds, isn't the city fighter's refuge; one who won't touch alcohol, drugs or cigarettes ever, or a woman for three weeks before a fight. One who won't go into the water with the boxing sharks, won't buy a house that's not in the woods, won't go near anything he doesn't know, won't forget to leave space between him and the other man inside the ring, just like his father always did outside of it. Because a fistfight is not unlike a relationship: If you can hold back, it's the other person who must extend and expose himself.
> 
> It turns out he was right, all those years as a kid when he daydreamed of suicide and carried the switchblade: Something had to die to release him from his father. Who could've guessed it would be a dog? And so it happens, finally. At age 23, Roy turns his father's weapon upon his father. He moves out of the trailer next to his parents' house and into Stanley Levin's place and starts planning to purchase a house on eight acres. He calls Merkerson and asks him to be his new trainer. "Told you I'd need you one day, Coach Merk," he says. That's the difference between Little Roy and his father. He's so fiercely independent that he can barely stand to be massaged, but he understands that it's O.K. every now and then, with a trustworthy person, to need.
> 
> For five straight days Roy arrives at the gym to work out before his father trains his other boxers. For five straight days-even though the Levin brothers, not Big Roy, are paying the rent on the gym-he finds a new lock on the door and chops it off with bolt cutters. As he listens to his feet and the jump rope tapping the floor in the empty gym, he feels a sadness and an absolute certainty: There's no turning back.
> 
> The sharks sniff the blood. Promoters and managers besiege Roy and Stanley Levin with calls, offering cash and condos and cars, all singing the same verse: "The only way you'll make it to the world title is with someone who's established. Otherwise they'll freeze you out." King comes to Pensacola three times, telling Roy he needs to link arms with a brother and bust out of these backwoods, ride the same limo to stardom that other boxing prodigies do. Roy shakes his head no. He is too much his father. He won't give up the distance.
> 
> This is no fool's rebellion, no conflagration of all his father's values. He's decisive-clearly he has been mulling the course he would take during all those silent years. He's happier, more playful, too. He sticks pillows under blankets in his hotel room the week before a fight to convince Merk he's napping and then slips off to play basketball and titters about his coup for days. "Lettin' out the kid in me," Roy says, "that I hardly ever could as a kid."
> 
> But he knows what he has lost, too. It's a security he always took into the ring: the little boy's belief that if he made a mistake and got hurt, badly hurt, nothing terrible would happen; his father would save him. But losing that is what it takes to be a champion, he decides. Being that one step closer to the edge.
> 
> In his first match without his father, he TKO's Glenn Thomas in the eighth round. Big Roy refuses to attend the fight. The silence between the two men hardens. The stakes are clear but never spoken: If the son stumbles-if fame or money undoes him, if he loses a fight-the father is proved right. Little Roy's not a man. He's still a boy.
> 
> Eleven months after the split, Little Roy decisions Bernard Hopkins to win the vacant International Boxing Federation world middleweight title. But who is Bernard Hopkins? It's not enough to prove his father wrong, not enough to appease critics who sneer at his opponents and wonder why he has never fought a champion. *It's going to take a true rite of passage, a definitive test of manhood. Not Thulane Malinga, Fermín Chirino or Daniel García, whom Roy dispatches in quick succession. Not top IBF middleweight contender Thomas Tate, whom Roy savages with an astonishing flying left hook in the second round. It's going to take a fistfight with the man who's undefeated in 46 bouts, the super middleweight champion who wins by intimidation, the one acclaimed by many as the best fighter, pound for pound, on earth. It's going to take James Toney.
> 
> It finally happens in November 1994. "Roy Jones," HBO commentator Larry Merchant declares just before the fight in Las Vegas, "has avoided all the toughest opponents. We don't know if he's a superstar or a fraud." A few minutes later they start knowing. Over and over Roy strikes and vanishes. Toney's a man locked inside the large house of his own body, hearing a rapping at the back door, running there but finding no one. Then a ferocious banging at the kitchen window, rushing there-nothing. Then a pounding at the bathroom window, spinning over there-nothing. Now it's the front door; now it's the dormer window in the attic. Who's there? No one, nothing. Toney gropes, he reaches, he lunges. He goes down in the third round, gets up and gets tagged again and again. Little Roy smashes the boxing axiom, the inverse between damage and distance.
> 
> Ross Greenburg, executive producer of HBO Sports, turns to his broadcasting team of Merchant, Jim Lampley and Gil Clancy, blinking in disbelief after Jones has won by a margin so overwhelming that The Ring magazine will call it the most dominant big-fight performance in 20 years. "Listen, guys," Greenburg says, "we were there for Leonard and Hagler and Hearns and Durán in their prime. I think Roy Jones gets in a ring and beats them all. I've never seen that kind of punching power and speed in one man. I can't imagine what it would take to beat Roy Jones."*
> 
> "Look how this rooster walks in his cage," Little Roy says. He's pointing to one of his 400 roosters and chickens as it strides back and forth inside its cage. "See that? It's his cage. He owns it. It's his world. Every other male has to respect that. I spent all my life in my dad's cage. I could never be 100 percent of who I am until I left it. But because of him, nothing bothers me. I'll never face anything stronger and harder than what I already have.
> 
> "I'd rather you kill me than lose my title. Just like these roosters. It's a very lonesome feeling. Your wife may leave you in this world. Your kids may leave you. Even your parents may leave you. I know what my roosters feel. All you really have is yourself." A man with that understanding, and with Little Roy's gifts, could own the cage for a long time. He's never out of shape. He still plays several hours of basketball a day, whether he's in training or not. He ran three miles the morning after the Toney fight. At midnight on each New Year's Eve he's dripping sweat in the gym, re-proving his dedication to himself. What would it take to undo such a man? Every great boxer is a tightly wound ball of compulsion and circumstance, always with that one dangling thread, if one peers closely enough, that can bring the whole thing apart. Where is that thread in a man for whom every bout now isn't simply a prizefight but an ongoing war for selfhood, another trial to play out before the eyes of the judge watching his television at home, looking for every *****? Could it be that the only thing that would undo Roy Jones Jr. now would be...his father's hug?
> 
> He was signed by HBO recently to what could be the largest TV deal of any nonheavyweight in history, under which he will fight sVinny Pazienza in Atlantic City on June 24. But who's on the horizon to test his greatness, to do what Leonard and Durán, Hearns and Hagler did for each other, to make him a household name? Except...unless....
> 
> "You know where this is heading, don't you?" says Fred Levin. "Tyson."
> 
> Roy shrugs. "I could beat him," he says. "I couldn't beat a large heavyweight like Riddick Bowe, but Tyson's only five-eleven. I could reach him. I could carry 185 pounds. I want to do something no one thinks I can do. That's what a champion does. A warrior is someone who'll fight to the dying end-that's what my father is. But a champion is someone who'll find a way to adapt to any situation and win. That's what I am.
> 
> "I wouldn't fight Tyson for the celebrity of it. I don't need that. They can shine the light so bright on your face, you can't even see what you're standin' on, and then one day the light goes off and you look down and see you were standin' on nothin'. Sure, I'll do some showboatin' in the ring-I'm the only true performer in the ring today. But not outside of it. People assume every boxer wants to live the fast life. That's an escape, not a life. I want a person-to-person life."
> 
> And so he keeps conceding distance to Big Roy in hopes that they can once more be father and son, if not trainer and boxer. He salutes Big Roy on TV after virtually every match, but still his father won't attend a fight. He gave Big Roy an $8,000 diamond-studded championship ring on Christmas Eve 1994, which Big Roy accepted but keeps in the house. At the urging of a friend, Little Roy agreed to call his dad and wish him a happy Father's Day last year, but what he got in return was "Thank you" and click. Each time Little Roy visits his parents' house, Big Roy suddenly remembers something he forgot to do in the barn or becomes obsessed by the ticks on one of his puppies' fur.
> 
> Everyone keeps telling Big Roy that he needs to make peace with his son. "Once you break the plate at my table," Big Roy tells them, "you can never eat there again." He won't discuss his son with reporters. "Just write whatever Roy says," he tells them. "Write whatever you want." Only to his three daughters will he let down his guard. "I love my son," he tells them. "I gave my life to him."
> 
> And then one day, on his mother's birthday in April 1995, Little Roy tries again. He has just purchased a new house on 81 acres of forest, and he can't help it: He wants to show it to his dad. He parks in front of the garage where his father still trains boxers. He glances warily at Big Roy. "Like to show you my new place," he says.
> 
> "Busy," grunts Big Roy.
> 
> "How 'bout tomorrow?"
> 
> "Busy then too."
> 
> "What about next week? The week after?"
> 
> "Gonna be real busy. Maybe sometime after that."
> 
> "After that? Who knows if I'll be around after that?"
> 
> "Tough cookies," says his father.
> 
> The son returns to his farm, his roosters. "That's it," he says. "Deep in my heart, I'll always love him. But I won't ever talk to him again." He holds a gamecock near his cheek, then sets it back in its cage and walks toward the woods...precisely the man Big Roy Jones always intended to raise.


http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1006753/index.htm


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## turbotime

turbotime said:


> http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1006753/index.htm


I never read that. Holy fucking shit.


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## Hands of Iron

Fat bluntz


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## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1006753/index.htm


This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. All that stuff you bolded up...


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## Dealt_with

turbotime said:


> http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1006753/index.htm


Damn :-(


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. All that stuff you bolded up...


Was that a test? :verysad didn't know he was abused


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## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Was that a test? :verysad didn't know he was abused


Well actually I was referring to how important Toney is on his resume and I'm a little high right now but if that article is talking about his father then yes.


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## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Well actually I was referring to how important Toney is on his resume and I'm a little high right now but if that article is talking about his father then yes.


Fucked man. Reminds me just like Oskee and his dad. Read the article.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Fucked man. Reminds me just like Oskee and his dad. Read the article.


Read it a Long Time ago bro. I know Roy more than you think :deal

TBH I don't think anybody in history could be seriously competitive with him at his peak

:conf


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Read it a Long Time ago bro. I know Roy more than you think :deal
> 
> TBH I don't think anybody in history could be seriously competitive with him at his peak
> 
> :conf


Very scary. No idea at all. Wow

Noone at 160 he could've stayed there forever. Who was gonna fuck with him? Joppy? King wouldnt let that Fly. Hopkins would've lost 4 more times. Benn who was a mess? :conf


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## errsta

Roy was a phenom in his day. A force of nature. 

SMH when Calzaghe fans trash Roy's resume...


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Very scary. No idea at all. Wow
> 
> Noone at 160 he could've stayed there forever. Who was gonna fuck with him? Joppy? King wouldnt let that Fly. Hopkins would've lost 4 more times. Benn who was a mess? :conf


Well I dunno man I consider my boy the last couple weeks to be a Bad, Bad motherfucker at his best (not making excuse) but I think even then if its COMPETITIVE its still a 10-2 competitive like Dealt and Gaul say. :smile


----------



## FelixTrinidad

32:40

This was Roy at his very very best. Listen to what he says. The man knows his boxing. 
Ingenius commentary by an ATG.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

I would have loved to see Roy vs Lewis in 2003. I think Lennox have slowed down and regressed just enough to make it a competitive fight.

There is no doubt in my mind.. the final outcome will make the Denis Lebedov KO look like a love tap......... but as long as Roy don't end up dying after that fight. I would have LOVED to see it. 

I think Roy have the heart of a true warrior and could very well dance his way to maybe a 4-4 split after the 1st 8 rounds.. prior to getting kayoed. 



I think that's the way Roy's career should have ended. He should have fought Lewis.. put up a good show.. get knocked out and retired. 


I give Roy a bigger chance against Lewis than Wladimir did. I really do.
Lennox had such a massive arrogance about him...... especially when regarding people he like to call 'the little folks of Boxing'.. I don't think he will ever train for a former SMW.. If Lewis had fought Wladimir in 2003.. Steward would have forced Lennox into a grueling camp because they know all about Wlad.. Roy might have just caught Lennox ... who was already heavily in decline.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Well I dunno man I consider my boy the last couple weeks to be a Bad, Bad motherfucker at his best (not making excuse) but I think even then if its COMPETITIVE its still a 10-2 competitive like Dealt and Gaul say. :smile


Im just glad hes not dead.


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> Read it a Long Time ago bro. I know Roy more than you think :deal
> 
> *
> TBH I don't think anybody in history could be seriously competitive with him at his peak*
> 
> :conf


Stop this nonsense. :lol:

There's at least three or four Light Heavyweights who could have put Roy Jones Jr out with one shot, and at least two who had the tools to actually land with enough regularity to get it done.



> I would have loved to see Roy vs Lewis in 2003. I think Lennox have slowed down and regressed just enough to make it a competitive fight.


Jones Jr would have been killed. I doubt the fight would have even resembled anything remotely competitive for even the opening minute.

Some people say Jones Jr is underrated, and some people obviously do, but some of the stuff that has been spouted in this particular thread is mind-boggling. Apparently no fighter throughout history could have hoped to be competitive with a prime Jones, and apparently Jones would have actually been in the fight with the Lewis of '03. The Lewis of 2013 would have seriously, seriously injured any version of Jones.


----------



## LittleRed

Montell Griffin was competitive with a prime Roy Jones.


----------



## Bwgcolman

Prime Roy was perhaps the most naturally gifted/athletic boxer of all time, no doubt about that. Between 160-175 if he was to fight all the ATG's in a best out of 3, he would beat them all at least once, SRR included. Anyone that came up boxing as a kid in the late 90's/ early 2000's looked up to him. I remember many kids at tournaments putting both their hands behind their backs mid fight, then lunging in with a lead hook, just like RJJ.


----------



## Boro Chris

Bwgcolman said:


> Prime Roy was perhaps the most naturally gifted/athletic boxer of all time, no doubt about that. Between 160-175 if he was to fight all the ATG's in a best out of 3, he would beat them all at least once, SRR included. Anyone that came up boxing as a kid in the late 90's/ early 2000's looked up to him. I remember many kids at tournaments putting both their hands behind their backs mid fight, then lunging in with a lead hook, just like RJJ.


I agree with you on Jones from 160-168. But at 175 I think it get's a little tougher for him. LH waters are historically
deep and there are plenty of sharks there, not just atgs like Charles,Spinks and Foster. You have to consider the other
beasts like Qawi, Saad Muhammed and John Conteh as very competitive.


----------



## Pedderrs

Boro Chris said:


> I agree with you on Jones from 160-168. But at 175 I think it get's a little tougher for him. LH waters are historically
> deep and there are plenty of sharks there, not just atgs like Charles,Spinks and Foster. You have to consider the other
> beasts like Qawi, Saad Muhammed and John Conteh as very competitive.


Qawi would have mutilated Jones' comp at 175lbs, never mind the likes of Charles, Spinks and Foster.


----------



## fists of fury

Boro Chris said:


> I agree with you on Jones from 160-168. But at 175 I think it get's a little tougher for him. LH waters are historically
> deep and there are plenty of sharks there, not just atgs like Charles,Spinks and Foster. You have to consider the other
> beasts like Qawi, Saad Muhammed and John Conteh as very competitive.


Galindez with that roughhouse style of his could conceivably give him problems too. I agree in general about the 175'ers. Not an easy division for Roy.


----------



## Mr. Brain

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf


I cannot dispute this.


----------



## Boro Chris

Pedderrs said:


> Qawi would have mutilated Jones' comp at 175lbs, never mind the likes of Charles, Spinks and Foster.


I meant they would be competitive with Jones himself. Imagine what Qawi would've done to Clinton Woods? Ouch.


----------



## turbotime

Boro Chris said:


> I agree with you on Jones from 160-168. But at 175 I think it get's a little tougher for him. LH waters are historically
> deep and there are plenty of sharks there, not just atgs like Charles,Spinks and Foster. You have to consider the other
> beasts like Qawi, Saad Muhammed and John Conteh as very competitive.


Those 3 would've been absolutely schooled by Jones.


----------



## Boro Chris

turbotime said:


> Those 3 would've been absolutely schooled by Jones.


Saad for long periods perhaps but he'd always be very dangerous. Likewise Qawi. 
I don't see Conteh getting schooled any one. He was like a LH Jose Napolese. I'd still favour Jones over all three however.


----------



## turbotime

Boro Chris said:


> I meant they would be competitive with Jones himself. Imagine what Qawi would've done to Clinton Woods? Ouch.


Jones beat the hell out of Woods too.


----------



## Pedderrs

Boro Chris said:


> I meant they would be competitive with Jones himself. Imagine what Qawi would've done to Clinton Woods? Ouch.


Imagine what Qawi would have done to Antonio Tarver, Clinton Woods, Glen Kelly, Richard Hall and Reggie Johnson.

I'm not sure about Charles and Foster definitely winning, but I always thought Spinks was all wrong for Roy Jones. Jones would anticipate his opponent's movements and his amazing reflexes and athletic ability would allow him to effortlessly maneuver out of harm's way. I think he would struggle to fight that way against someone as awkward as Spinks who's offense came from a variety different angles. He had so many different punches he could employ. Spinks was not slow, he could take a good punch, and he certainly possessed the power in either hand to stop a Roy Jones at 175lbs. It could look very one-sided in the early goings, but I would expect Spinks to start to hurt Jones by the middle rounds.



> Those 3 would've been absolutely schooled by Jones.


Wonderful analysis.


----------



## Boro Chris

turbotime said:


> Jones beat the hell out of Woods too.


Yeah. That was pretty onesided stuff. Always thought that Woods had a chin like a sack of wet cement. Very tough guy.
Unfortunately he looked about as quick as that when in with Jones that night. 
Thing is I'm not saying guys like Qawi, Conteh and Saad would beat Jones, just that they're a damn sight better than any LH 
Jones had to face and quite conceivably give him a decent test. Conteh with his superb skill and innate viciousness, Saad because of his power, toughness 
and underated skills and Qawi was just a beast.


----------



## turbotime

Boro Chris said:


> Yeah. That was pretty onesided stuff. Always thought that Woods had a chin like a sack of wet cement. Very tough guy.
> Unfortunately he looked about as quick as that when in with Jones that night.
> Thing is I'm not saying guys like Qawi, Conteh and Saad would beat Jones, just that they're a damn sight better than any LH
> Jones had to face and quite conceivably give him a decent test. Conteh with his superb skill and innate viciousness, Saad because of his power, toughness
> and underated skills and Qawi was just a beast.


Yeah when Jones started working those body shots on him Woods just had nothing to offer back.

Love watching Qawi, he was a real beast wasn't he? Iron jaw on him too.


----------



## Pedderrs

Boro Chris said:


> Yeah. That was pretty onesided stuff. Always thought that Woods had a chin like a sack of wet cement. Very tough guy.
> Unfortunately he looked about as quick as that when in with Jones that night.
> Thing is I'm not saying guys like Qawi, Conteh and Saad would beat Jones, just that they're a damn sight better than any LH
> Jones had to face and quite conceivably give him a decent test. Conteh with his superb skill and innate viciousness, Saad because of his power, toughness
> and underated skills and Qawi was just a beast.


Yaqui Lopez was probably better than any LHW Jones fought. And that's the point. It's okay saying "Roy Jones would school these guys" on the strength of his performances at 175 against the likes of Clinton Woods, but it's about levels. These cats are levels above Roy Jones' comp.


----------



## Boro Chris

turbotime said:


> Yeah when Jones started working those body shots on him Woods just had nothing to offer back.
> 
> Love watching Qawi, he was a real beast wasn't he? Iron jaw on him too.


Loved his punking of Leon Spinks as well. Bad man!


----------



## Boro Chris

Pedderrs said:


> Yaqui Lopez was probably better than any LHW Jones fought. And that's the point. It's okay saying "Roy Jones would school these guys" on the strength of his performances at 175 against the likes of Clinton Woods, but it's about levels. These cats are levels above Roy Jones' comp.


My favourite Conteh performance was his near one handed schooling of Lopez. Masterful stuff.
It's a shame we didn't have to see Jones rise to the challenge of a truely dangerous LH. It may well have brought the best out've
him. How would he have coped with Harold Johnson's Jab? Fosters stalking power?


----------



## turbotime

Boro Chris said:


> My favourite Conteh performance was his near one handed schooling of Lopez. Masterful stuff.
> It's a shame we didn't have to see Jones rise to the challenge of a truely dangerous LH. It may well have brought the best out've
> him. How would he have coped with Harold Johnson's Jab? Fosters stalking power?


We saw an old Jones in the first Tarver fight suck it up, take huge punches and get the W. Safe to say he could fight when he had to.


----------



## dyna

Benn on Roy Jones

:deal

"I don't mind being number 2"


----------



## turbotime

Warren kept his boys far far away from roy.


----------



## Boro Chris

turbotime said:


> We saw an old Jones in the first Tarver fight suck it up, take huge punches and get the W. Safe to say he could fight when he had to.


Doesn't get enough credit for that win. Not that Tarver was that great but Jones certainly sucked it up that night.


----------



## Pedderrs

turbotime said:


> We saw an old Jones in the first Tarver fight suck it up, take huge punches and get the W. Safe to say he could fight when he had to.


Old? How old was he though, Turbo? 36-37?

I thought he had just won the Heavyweight title from John Ruiz prior to that first Tarver fight? He also looked as good as ever when he schooled and humiliated Clinton Woods. That's pretty good form.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> LOL @ Merchant hating on Roy at 32 minutes 10 seconds, then Roy sparking Malinga with one punch :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl


Underrated as fuck. Malinga had some damn good skills, was the victim of the West Midlands on two occasions (especially Nigel), got a well deserved win over Benn in the second fight, had never been stopped. Lol at Thomas Tate going 12 with Julian Jackson -- TKO2. :rofl I don't think you overstate Jones power at all quite frankly. He was like a tiger amusing himself with his prey a lot of times. He also stood two of the 15 best fighters I've seen on their heads for much of 24 rounds.

@Pedderrs I was high! :smug I don't think I'd peg him #1 at LHW (I picked Spinks there). Much higher on 160-168


----------



## turbotime

'I was high' :rofl


----------



## Pedderrs

Are you refusing to address any of my posts, Turbo? Is this because of our disagreement the other day? These things tend to happen on Internet forums. Conflicting opinions, etc. You shouldn't let it bother you to this extent, lad.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> 'I was high' :rofl


Still hasn't totally worn off yet


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Still hasn't totally worn off yet


Might as well start it back up homie :deal


----------



## Hands of Iron

You need that Russian bloke who rates Gavilan Top 10 P4P in this thread... forget his name on ESb


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Underrated as fuck. Malinga had some damn good skills, was the victim of the West Midlands on two occasions (especially Nigel), got a well deserved win over Benn in the second fight, had never been stopped. Lol at Thomas Tate going 12 with Julian Jackson -- TKO2. :rofl I don't think you overstate Jones power at all quite frankly. *He was like a tiger amusing himself with his prey a lot of times. He also stood two of the 15 best fighters I've seen on their heads for much of 24 rounds.*


I likey this a lot.


----------



## fists of fury

dyna said:


> Benn on Roy Jones
> 
> :deal
> 
> "I don't mind being number 2"


I wish we had another Benn today. He was a part of a great era.


----------



## Pedderrs

The amount of hyperbole in this thread is suffocating.


----------



## fists of fury

Boro Chris said:


> Doesn't get enough credit for that win. Not that Tarver was that great but Jones certainly sucked it up that night.


Probably not, no. I think people were more concerned with Tarver giving Jones a reasonably tough time of it, than giving Roy any credit for a gutsy performance.


----------



## turbotime

fists of fury said:


> I wish we had another Benn today. He was a part of a great era.


Golovkin :conf


----------



## fists of fury

turbotime said:


> Golovkin :conf


Like I said the other day, I'm still trying to get up to speed regarding the modern guys. Be patient, dammit. :lol:


----------



## turbotime

fists of fury said:


> Like I said the other day, I'm still trying to get up to speed regarding the modern guys. Be patient, dammit. :lol:


:lol: :-(


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> The amount of hyperbole in this thread is suffocating.


Ya musta forgot, Addie


----------



## Pedderrs

turbotime said:


> Ya musta forgot, Addie


Jones was a bad man but he'd have been dead if he stepped into the same ring as Lennox Lewis in '03. Deaded.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I likey this a lot.


Good


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> Jones was a bad man but he'd have been dead if he stepped into the same ring as Lennox Lewis in '03. Deaded.


im not convinced he would even beat Byrd tbh


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Pedderrs said:


> Stop this nonsense. :lol:
> 
> There's at least three or four Light Heavyweights who could have put Roy Jones Jr out with one shot, and at least two who had the tools to actually land with enough regularity to get it done.
> 
> *Jones Jr would have been killed*. I doubt the fight would have even resembled anything remotely competitive for even the opening minute.
> 
> Some people say Jones Jr is underrated, and some people obviously do, but some of the stuff that has been spouted in this particular thread is mind-boggling. Apparently no fighter throughout history could have hoped to be competitive with a prime Jones, and apparently Jones would have actually been in the fight with the Lewis of '03. The Lewis of 2013 would have seriously, seriously injured any version of Jones.


Do you mean that like literally or figuratively. I think Prime Lewis would literally Kill Jones and this thread would have been a tribute thread and shit with tears and cum flying every which direction.

How do you think a 2003 Lewis vs Jones match up would have gone?

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...-Alexander-Unistov-Round-by-Round-and-Results

Try to be creative. I would love a Round by Round.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

I don't mean to drag down this great thread... but in all fucking seriousness.

If you watch Wlad get knocked out or Lewis get knocked out. These guys were hit by legitimate HARD KO Punches. The punches that hit Lewis would have knocked out the vast majority of HW'S.. and Sander's punches against Wlad would have killed a lot of people...........

How the FUCK did Jones get comaed by Glen freaking Johnson?

I mean I'm serious... it really looked like he was Kayoed cold by Johnson.

Are we fucking getting too delusional about Roy Jones? Dude ALWAYS had a suspect chin...

How can you Historian lovers come into this thread and have the audacity to write about Jones as if he was flawless when his one biggest flaw could easily have been capitalized on by any NUMBER of ATG LHW?






I mean seriously..

and for those of you fucking on and on about how Jones beat Hopkins and Toney.
FYI... Benn,Mccellan,and Dariuz fought NOTHING like Toney or Hopkins.

Who's greater? Toney or Benn?
Toney

Who's greater: Mccellan or Hopkins?
Hopkins

Who's FAR more dangerous to Jones?
Mccellan and Benn and it's not even close.

Who's a greater boxer? Larry Holmes or George foreman?
Who's more dangerous to Wlad?


----------



## FelixTrinidad

I miss Bailey. I don't care enough about Jones to go in depth.

Bailey would have slobbered over this thread like a dog over shit.


----------



## turbotime

Benn would've been creamed by Jones.


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> Stop this nonsense. :lol:
> 
> There's at least three or four Light Heavyweights who could have put Roy Jones Jr out with one shot, and at least two who had the tools to actually land with enough regularity to get it done.


:happy:happy

I think Foster could have ended Jones at LHW with that left hook. Qawi's relentless pressure would've caught up to Jones sooner or later. Charles outboxes him & KO's him late. Spinks offsets Jones' rhythm and stops him with one of those awkward combinations. Harold Johnson would've had a chance to outbox him and win a decision. Saad Muhammad is 50/50 but Muhammad certainly has the power & the angles necessary to beat Jones as well imo.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

turbotime said:


> Benn would've been creamed by Jones.


As would every fighter Roy fought. So why even fight.
Retire at 1-0 and let Dealt_With do a thread about Roy 10-2 Spinks.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

tommygun711 said:


> :happy:happy
> 
> I think Foster could have ended Jones at LHW with that left hook. Qawi's relentless pressure would've caught up to Jones sooner or later. Charles outboxes him & KO's him late. Spinks offsets Jones' rhythm and stops him with one of those awkward combinations. Harold Johnson would've had a chance to outbox him and win a decision. Saad Muhammad is 50/50 but Muhammad certainly has the power & the angles necessary to beat Jones as well imo.


Also explain this;
(BattlingNelson NSB)

The year end rankings of 1992 looked like this:

1: Michael Nunn 
2: Iran Barkley 
3: Chris Eubank 
4: Victor Cordoba 
5: Nigel Benn 
6: Tim Littles 
7: Darrin Van Horn 
8: Tony Thornton 
9: Frankie Liles 
10: Frank Nicotra

He fought Thornton in 1995.

1993:

1: James Toney 
2: Michael Nunn 
3: Chris Eubank 
4: Nigel Benn 
5: Tim Littles 
6: Darrin Van Horn 
7: Frankie Liles 
8: Tony Thornton 
9: Antoine Byrd 
10: Vincenzo Nardiello

1994: Jones enters the list at no. 1 after beating Toney.

1: Roy Jones Jr. 
2: Nigel Benn 
3: Chris Eubank 
4: Frankie Liles 
5: Vinny Pazienza 
6: Tim Littles 
7: Michael Nunn 
8: Ray Close 
9: Graciano Rocchigiani 
10: Antoine Byrd

1995:

1: Roy Jones Jr. 
2: Nigel Benn 
3: Steve Collins 
4: Frankie Liles 
5: Tim Littles 
6: Vinny Pazienza 
7: Bryant Brannon 
8: Henry Wharton 
9: Michael Nunn 
10: Ray Close

1996:

1: Roy Jones Jr. 
2: Frankie Liles 
3: Steve Collins 
4: Vinny Pazienza 
5: Robin Reid 
6: Henry Wharton 
7: Michael Nunn 
8: Vincenzo Nardiello 
9: Joseph Kiwanuka 
10: Thulani Malinga

At the end of 1996 Jones had moved up.

So Jones work after 4 years at 168 lb consist of an excellent win over Toney and not much else:

Toney
Thornton
Pazienza (LOL)
Byrd
Brannon

Jones never fought a top 3 opponent after Toney. He had 6 fights at 168 after beating him. Of those fights he beat an unranked Thornton, a suspected juiced lightweight in Pazienza, a past it Byrd, a never was in Sosa, a young non-threat in Lucas and a veteran of 16 fights in Brannon.

So the deserving fighters Jones didn't fight (or ducked as it's called on NSB) is these guys:

Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra


----------



## turbotime

BattlingNelson atsch



Did I see Barkley in there :lol:


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> As would every fighter Roy fought. So why even fight.
> Retire at 1-0 and let Dealt_With do a thread about Roy 10-2 Spinks.


Benn hid in Europe behind his promoters for a reason. He said himself he liked to be #2 and was ok with it.


----------



## tommygun711

FelixTrinidad said:


> So the deserving fighters Jones didn't fight (or ducked as it's called on NSB) is these guys:
> 
> Nunn
> Benn
> Eubank
> Collins
> Barkley
> Cordoba
> Littles
> Van Horn
> Liles
> Nardiello
> Close
> Rocchigianni
> Nicotra


How many of these guys would have actually beat Jones, though?

I get your point, but alot of these guys get outclassed and KO'd by Jones.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

I don't give a fuck if Jones could have beaten everybody and their Mama's.. he didn't fight them.

Hey let's do one on Muhammad Ali.

Let's say Ali fought Dick,Charle,Zab,and Fucker after Liston and retired by beating Foreman.

Still a great career. He got Dick,Charle,Zab,Fucker,Liston,and Foreman.

But he didn't fight Frazier,Patterson,Shavers,Norton,Quarry,Bona,Terrell, Ellis .

BUT SHIT son.. he coulda whoop them Frazier and Norton why the fuck should he fight them.

Shit You see Joe Frazier? Fool got knocked out by god damn Foreman who ALI KAYOED.

Easy work for Ali KO1 Frazier.

Easy work for Ali destroy Norton.. fool got destroyed by Foreman who got kayoed by shot Ali.

Shit Ali don't need to fight ANY of these fools because he whoop them all and their mamas.

ALi GOAT.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

tommygun711 said:


> How many of these guys would have actually beat Jones, though?
> 
> I get your point, but alot of these guys get outclassed and KO'd by Jones.


I don't give a fuck if Jones could have beaten everybody and their Mama's.. he didn't fight them.

Hey let's do one on Muhammad Ali.

Let's say Ali fought Dick,Charle,Zab,and Fucker after Liston and retired by beating Foreman.

Still a great career. He got Dick,Charle,Zab,Fucker,Liston,and Foreman.

But he didn't fight Frazier,Patterson,Shavers,Norton,Quarry,Bona,Terre ll, Ellis .

BUT SHIT son.. he coulda whoop them Frazier and Norton why the fuck should he fight them.

Shit You see Joe Frazier? Fool got knocked out by god damn Foreman who ALI KAYOED.

Easy work for Ali KO1 Frazier.

Easy work for Ali destroy Norton.. fool got destroyed by Foreman who got kayoed by shot Ali.

Shit Ali don't need to fight ANY of these fools because he whoop them all and their mamas.

ALi GOAT.


----------



## turbotime

Barkley though :rofl


----------



## Hatesrats

Jones Jr. Was defo one of the most original of All-Time.
His style was all his own, Did have great punching power @154-160
(168lbs his power was consistent)

Speed was always on point, Athletic ability that is unrivaled in boxing history.
Everything Jones accomplished post his 168lbs career is/was a bonus.

Maybe not the GOAT, But in the house for sure.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

The point of this is you can't just say Roy destroys X. Because eye test wise he looks so much greater or because his left overs destroy X.

That's intellectually dishonest. I hope at least you guys can agree on that?

Eye test wise.. Ali dominates Frazier and Norton. He really do.. if you say he don't you are lying. 
Yet Frazer and Norton gave Ali the most trouble.


The Jones would have destroyed 'X' statement only works if the fighters are below certain standards.

AKA... Lewis would have destroyed John Ruiz. But would Lewis would DESTROYED Chris Byrd? On the eye test. He would have. He didn't. So I would never say he shouldn't have fought Byrd.

Benn,Mccellan,Dariuz,Nunn... etc are not BUMS. They are good/very good fighters. You just never know with fighters of their caliber and they certainty deserves more respect from us and especially from you 'Historian classic' loving people than just saying 'they would have been toyed with by Roy'

You show any non Heavyweight fan fights of Frazier and fights of Ali... the vast majority should and WOULD come to the conclusion Ali toys with Frazier.. 
We only made up that mythical 'oh we knew Frazier's style would have given Ali issues' AFTER we actually seen Frazier's style giving Ali issues.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hatesrats said:


> Jones Jr. Was defo one of the most original of All-Time.
> His style was all his own, Did have great punching power @154-160
> (168lbs his power was consistent)
> 
> Speed was always on point, Athletic ability that is unrivaled in boxing history.
> Everything Jones accomplished *post his 168lbs career is*/was a bonus.
> 
> Maybe not the GOAT, But in the house for sure.


:lol: Ok.
At least say everything he's accomplished POST his 175 career. lol.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Barkley though :rofl


Iran "The Canvas" Barkley 

Tough Hombre. Still has two wins over Hearns lol


----------



## fists of fury

FelixTrinidad said:


> How the FUCK did Jones get comaed by Glen freaking Johnson?


I think it was psychological more than physical. Tarver's KO over Jones in my mind really did a job on Roy's psyche.
Sometimes when a guy get's KO'd for the first time, he never really recovers. One of my sparring partners once fought Phillip Holliday (who fought Fenech and Mosely, among others) and got knocked out in the first round. He confessed to me a while later that ever since that knockout, he just felt punches more and they hurt him more.


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> I don't give a fuck if Jones could have beaten everybody and their Mama's.. he didn't fight them.
> 
> Hey let's do one on Muhammad Ali.
> 
> Let's say Ali fought Dick,Charle,Zab,and Fucker after Liston and retired by beating Foreman.
> 
> Still a great career. He got Dick,Charle,Zab,Fucker,Liston,and Foreman.
> 
> But he didn't fight Frazier,Patterson,Shavers,Norton,Quarry,Bona,Terre ll, Ellis .
> 
> BUT SHIT son.. he coulda whoop them Frazier and Norton why the fuck should he fight them.
> 
> Shit You see Joe Frazier? Fool got knocked out by god damn Foreman who ALI KAYOED.
> 
> Easy work for Ali KO1 Frazier.
> 
> Easy work for Ali destroy Norton.. fool got destroyed by Foreman who got kayoed by shot Ali.
> 
> Shit Ali don't need to fight ANY of these fools because he whoop them all and their mamas.
> 
> ALi GOAT.


Is it bad that I'm reading shit son in Roy's voice :rofl


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Iran "The Canvas" Barkley
> 
> Tough Hombre. Still has two wins over Hearns lol


Never ducked nobody tho


----------



## FelixTrinidad

What's galling about all this is I know for a fact that if Roy was some guy from Berlin who grew up supporting Bayern Munich and Dariusz Michalczewski was a Country Boy who played with cocks........ there will be threads about how 'Roy ducked Dariuz and schooled people in Germany'

We all secretly know I'm right.. and so what? Why do I support Anthony Joshua and Lennox Lewis? Why not Wladimir and Vitali? Exactly. 
I am open and perfectly fine to the idea of Nationalistic/Racial bias and consider it normal among sports fans. As long as we don't cross the line like Vladimir23 or Freedom.. we are all ok.

But let's not sit behind our fucking lap tops and act above/beyond all that and pretend that if Roy was someone from London.. he will receive the same kinds of posts from the same kinds of posters.

Although if Roy was a Gentleman Jamician Brit who grew up in London.. it might have just been me who started this thread and not Turbo.:smile


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Iran "The Canvas" Barkley
> 
> Tough Hombre. Still has two wins over Hearns lol


Yeah that boggles my mind :lol: Great win for that middleweight impersonating Duran though.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Barkley TKO3 Hearns in '88 *****. Stretched him out real nice.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

turbotime said:


> Is it bad that I'm reading shit son in Roy's voice :rofl


Not bad at all. I know Roy is great fighter. I'll try to figure out what annoys me about him. I can't exactly pin point it. 
There's something.............................. something he did . Maybe to one of my friends or relatives or something. Anyways bad experience.


----------



## Hatesrats

FelixTrinidad said:


> :lol: Ok.
> At least say everything he's accomplished POST his 175 career. lol.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hatesrats said:


>


:huh I don't get it.


----------



## fists of fury

FelixTrinidad said:


> What's galling about all this is I know for a fact that if Roy was some guy from Berlin who grew up supporting Bayern Munich and Dariusz Michalczewski was a Country Boy who played with cocks........ there will be threads about how 'Roy ducked Dariuz and schooled people in Germany'
> 
> We all secretly know I'm right.. and so what? Why do I support Anthony Joshua and Lennox Lewis? Why not Wladimir and Vitali? Exactly.
> I am open and perfectly fine to the idea of Nationalistic/Racial bias and consider it normal among sports fans. As long as we don't cross the line like Vladimir23 or Freedom.. we are all ok.
> 
> But let's not sit behind our fucking lap tops and act above/beyond all that and pretend that if Roy was someone from London.. he will receive the same kinds of posts from the same kinds of posters.


That's probably true to a large extent, yeah.


----------



## turbotime

Hatesrats said:


>


arty :hammer arty


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> Not bad at all. I know Roy is great fighter. I'll try to figure out what annoys me about him. I can't exactly pin point it.
> There's something.............................. something he did . Maybe to one of my friends or relatives or something. Anyways bad experience.


Oh. my god.

Do it.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hatesrats said:


>


You gonna come at me like a ****** with a random picture of some black dude getting knocked out by Roy.. because I said he's not an ATG YET if he just retired at 168?

Roy needed that 175 run...............to enhance his legacy. It wasn't a bonus you stupid fucking retard.. It was a necessity.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Legacy is overrated.


----------



## Hatesrats

FelixTrinidad said:


> You gonna come at me like a ****** with a random picture of some black dude getting knocked out by Roy.. because I said he's not an ATG YET if he just retired at 168?
> 
> Roy needed that 175 run...............to enhance his legacy. It wasn't a bonus you stupid fucking retard.. It was a necessity.


Hahahaha... Random, That's you on the canvas "Tito"


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hands of Iron said:


> Legacy is overrated.


Roy agrees with you :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Thanks for the breakdown brah.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hatesrats said:


> Hahahaha... Random, That's you on the canvas "Tito"


Ok so Roy retires in 1996 after beating Bryant Brannon.

He's an ATG right? According to you everything he done after 168= Bonus.

So Roy is an ATG in 1996 after beating Brannon?


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hatesrats said:


> Hahahaha... Random, That's you on the canvas "Tito"


Look I agree Roy was the greatest fighter of the 90's... and is an definite ATG. But to say that he's 'done' in 96 is absurd.
If Roy had retired at 168.. he would be a Hall of Famer with his two massive wins no doubt.. but his resume won't have held enough juice to boost his status into an bonafide ATG fighter. HE NEEDED that great 175 run and Ruiz to become a true ATG.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Its all bullshit and utterly subjective nonsense anyway.


----------



## Pedderrs

I don't think Jones needed Ruiz to establish himself as a legitimate great. The man had already dominated for over a decade, beating good to great fighters along the way. It was a bonus.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

I'm being as nice as I can with my arguments because Hands and Turbo are Roy fans. 
I'm actually done .. 

I'll just leave it at this:
Roy is an ATG. He is a definite top 50 P4P ALL TIME FIGHTER.
His win over Ruiz was underrated.

He SHOULD have fought a lot of good fighters that he didn't fight(Maybe his fault maybe not).
We shouldn't say he would have beaten them all. Fantasy wins are only reserved for Pacquaio and Mayweather.
And no he would not have beaten Michael Spinks..


Final word to Roy Fans: Great fighter.
Final word to Roy Haters: Just imagine if he and Lennox fought in 2002.


----------



## Hands of Iron

FelixTrinidad said:


> Roy agrees with you :lol:


Well he's the best fighter a lot of people have ever seen in their opinion and that seems to really bother you.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Its all bullshit and utterly subjective nonsense anyway.


:deal What's the point?


----------



## Hatesrats

FelixTrinidad said:


> Look I agree Roy was the greatest fighter of the 90's... and is an definite ATG. But to say that he's 'done' in 96 is absurd.
> If Roy had retired at 168.. he would be a Hall of Famer with his two massive wins no doubt.. but his resume won't have held enough juice to boost his status into an bonafide ATG fighter. HE NEEDED that great 175 run and Ruiz to become a true ATG.


I'm not arguing with you bro. I agree with you winning his 175-HW shit was defo the cherry on top.
Tho him staying @168lbs and destroying everything it had to offer for all those years aswell would have garnered him the same result. Peeps pick his choice of opponents apart either way 168lbs & above.

prob wouldn't have picked up those "L's" either??


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> I don't think Jones needed Ruiz to establish himself as a legitimate great. The man had already dominated for over a decade, beating good to great fighters along the way. It was a bonus.


He caught so much crap for not going to heavyweight. Man, he was going to fight Holyfield at one point. I wish he'd have retired after Ruiz though. I had no idea he lead such a flashy lifestyle and was dumb with his money


----------



## fists of fury

Hands of Iron said:


> Well he's the best fighter a lot of people have ever seen in their opinion and that seems to really bother you.


I think it was that comment about Lennox.


----------



## fists of fury

Roy's just one of those fighters who polarises opinion. I can see both sides of the argument. I think he's friggin' fantastic, but there are legitimate criticisms that can't be so easily ignored either.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Felix,

Do you think I give a shit whether or not Carlos Monzon has a greater legacy than James Toney? I really don't and I'll tell you why: Toney was a better fighter, flat out in my opinion.

And no Bennie Briscoe and Rodrigo Valdez, much less a past prime Valdez who had his power hand mangled in a car accident and was fighting only one week after the murder of his brother in Colombia arent better wins than Michael Nunn or Mike McCallum (A Top 10 ATG Technician - in my opinion). Not by a fucking sight brah. In my opinion. And it doesnt mean much above nothing.


----------



## Pedderrs

turbotime said:


> He caught so much crap for not going to heavyweight. Man, he was going to fight Holyfield at one point. I wish he'd have retired after Ruiz though. I had no idea he lead such a flashy lifestyle and was dumb with his money


Jones should have retired after the first Tarver fight. That win actually enhances Roy's standing and showed people that he could dig deep for a victory. Everything after that was pretty depressing though.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :deal What's the point?


I'm at the end of my rope. :yep


----------



## LittleRed

Hands of Iron said:


> You need that Russian bloke who rates Gavilan Top 10 P4P in this thread... forget his name on ESb


Senya.


----------



## Pedderrs

A top 10 ATG ring technician getting styled on.


----------



## Hands of Iron

LittleRed said:


> Senya.


Senya. :deal

Honey Badger of a poster cause honey badgers dont..... Give a shit.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> A top 10 ATG ring technician getting styled on.


By another tremendously underrated fighter.

I can show Chavez getting styled on and he's in my top ten too. :conf


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> By another tremendously underrated fighter.
> 
> I can show Chavez getting styled on and he's in my top ten too. :conf


Mike McCallum is underrated? By who?!


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm at the end of my rope. :yep


Love it.


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> Jones should have retired after the first Tarver fight. That win actually enhances Roy's standing and showed people that he could dig deep for a victory. Everything after that was pretty depressing though.


Yeah I don't know why I keep watching his fights. I haven't missed one :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Mike McCallum is underrated? By who?!


:rofl

Anybody who feels Monzon has a better win than those against him whilst he was a top fighter, a pretty short list.


----------



## Pedderrs

turbotime said:


> Yeah I don't know why I keep watching his fights. I haven't missed one :-(


I remember when he clowned Jeff Lacy. His fans seemed convinced he was back or something. It was weird.


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> I remember when he clowned Jeff Lacy. His fans seemed convinced he was back or something. It was weird.


Yeah we get overzealous at times. I just sat in the background shaking my head. Captain Hook atsch


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> 
> Anybody who feels Monzon has a better win than those against him whilst he was a top fighter, a pretty short list.


Do you think Toney was more effective than Monzon?


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> 
> Anybody who feels Monzon has a better win than those against him whilst he was a top fighter, a pretty short list.


Had to have a laugh at so many ppl picking Monzon in the h2h thread


----------



## Pedderrs




----------



## turbotime

Not his finest hour. :lol: 









:verysad


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Do you think Toney was more effective than Monzon?


I'm sensing a trap :verysad that invariably leads to talk of consistency and/or Monzon's ability to impose himself over a greater variety of styles and probably even the reasons he may be favored in some "fantasy fight" between the two. Duly noted, man. However, personally Toney's overly discussed limitations are overcome by the excellence in the facets he thrived as far as impressing me. He wasnt a jack of all trades, but he was a master at a few. I'm sorry if it doesn't tie into someone else's view of what's logical, but it's me being honest. You think Julio is #1 , and I've really got no interest in reforming your opinion. In fact, I could even see it.

Not really to do, but do you think Valdez and Briscoe are better than Nunn and McCallum though? (at the times fought). I've been trolling this all damn week, so what'd ya think? :think



turbotime said:


> Had to have a laugh at so many ppl picking Monzon in the h2h thread


:lol:


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

turbotime said:


> Had to have a laugh at so many ppl picking Monzon in the h2h thread


I don't know what thread this is, but I'm sure there were knowledgeable posters picking Monzon. Give it a rest, Turbo.


----------



## Hands of Iron

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I don't know what thread this is, but I'm sure there were knowledgeable posters picking Monzon. Give it a rest, Turbo.


Over Jones or Rubbish Legs Lights Out?


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm sensing a trap :verysad that invariably leads to talk of consistency and/or Monzon's ability to impose himself over a greater variety of styles and probably even the reasons he may be favored in some "fantasy fight" between the two. Duly noted, man. However, personally Toney's overly discussed limitations are overcome by the excellence in the facets he thrived as far as impressing me. He wasnt a jack of all trades, but he was a master at a few. I'm sorry if it doesn't tie into someone else's view of what's logical, but it's me being honest. You think Julio is #1 , and I've really got no interest in reforming your opinion. In fact, I could even see it.
> 
> Not really to do, but do you think Valdez and Briscoe are better than Nunn and McCallum though? (at the times fought). I've been trolling this all damn week, so what'd ya think? :think
> 
> :lol:


I haven't seen nearly enough footage of Valdez or Briscoe to properly gauge just how good they were. In fact, the only times I've encountered either of them are in their respective fights with Monzon.

I'm very impressed with some of our posters who seem to have opinions on nearly every fighter that has ever lived. Where do they find the time to watch all of the footage and what books have they been reading? That's why you'll see me popping in threads like this and asking questions rather than making statements whenever guys like Valdez are brought up, whereas I'll actually have things to say when it comes to guys like Marco Antonio Barrera, Gerry Penalosa, Myung Woo Yuh, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez, Orlando Canizales, Muhammad Ali, Bert Cooper, Sumbu Kalambay, etc.

Perhaps I'll be able to talk more about Valdez and Briscoe in 5 years time after getting through the likes of Jose Napoles, Hilario Zapata, Charley Burley, and Marcel Cerden first.

So many fighters, so little time.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Hands of Iron said:


> Over Jones or Rubbish Legs Lights Out?


Jones, but both is acceptable lol


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Do you think Toney was more effective than Monzon?





Pedderrs said:


> I haven't seen nearly enough footage of Valdez or Briscoe to properly gauge just how good they were. In fact, the only times I've encountered either of them are in their respective fights with Monzon.
> 
> I'm very impressed with some of our posters who seem to have opinions on nearly every fighter that has ever lived. Where do they find the time to watch all of the footage and what books have they been reading? That's why you'll see me popping in threads like this and asking questions rather than making statements whenever guys like Valdez are brought up, whereas I'll actually have things to say when it comes to guys like Marco Antonio Barrera, Gerry Penalosa, Myung Woo Yuh, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez, Orlando Canizales, Muhammad Ali, Bert Cooper, Sumbu Kalambay, etc.
> 
> Perhaps I'll be able to talk more about Valdez and Briscoe in 5 years time after getting through the likes of Jose Napoles, Hilario Zapata, Charley Burley, and Marcel Cerden first.
> 
> So many fighters, so little time.


So that _was_ the angle you were going to take. :twisted :lol: TBH I've probably got a higher opinion of Carlito than the vast majority of WBF posters aside from Gaul, Phantom (red cobra), LittleRed and the cobra. I'm not being dishonest in the last couple of posts in this thread, but Toney's also a guy I've been having some over the top fun with lately as the forum is beginning to bore me. Like hijacking Lomachenko threads with him, Nunn, Kalambay and the whole crew. @The Undefeated Gaul :rofl


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Hands of Iron said:


> So that _was_ the angle you were going to take. :twisted :lol: TBH I've probably got a higher opinion of Carlito than the vast majority of WBF posters aside from Gaul, Phantom (red cobra), LittleRed and the cobra. I'm not being dishonest in the last couple of posts in this thread, but Toney's also a guy I've been having some over the top fun with lately as the forum is beginning to bore me. Like hijacking Lomachenko threads with him, Nunn, Kalambay and the whole crew. @The Undefeated Gaul :rofl


lool cheers, I was wondering where your Toney hype came from and why you randomly started talking about Toney in the Lomachenko thread :lol: I felt like there were so many Nunn's mentioned in that thread at one point that the forum turned into a world monastery forum!!


----------



## Hands of Iron

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> lool cheers, I was wondering where your Toney hype came from and why you randomly started talking about Toney in the Lomachenko thread :lol: I felt like there were so many Nunn's mentioned in that thread at one point that the forum turned into a world monastery forum!!


Even got DW to chime in on him. :rofl :deal


----------



## Pedderrs

I honestly thought Boxing fans would stop talking about James Toney after the Randy Couture pasting.


----------



## fists of fury

Pedderrs said:


> Where do they find the time to watch all of the footage and what books have they been reading? .


I know, right? Jesus H. I've been watching the sport for roughly 35 years and am reasonably well-read, but there's huge gaping holes in my knowledge of the game that I'll probably never remotely come close to filling. The history of the sport is just too rich, and then one has to try and keep up with what's going on today as well. Impossible. Well, for me at least.


----------



## fists of fury

Pedderrs said:


> I honestly thought Boxing fans would stop talking about James Toney after the Randy Couture pasting.


Watched two minutes of that shit, and turned it off. Couldn't stand to see what poor Toney had been reduced to.


----------



## SJS20

Pedderrs said:


> I haven't seen nearly enough footage of Valdez or Briscoe to properly gauge just how good they were. In fact, the only times I've encountered either of them are in their respective fights with Monzon.
> 
> I'm very impressed with some of our posters who seem to have opinions on nearly every fighter that has ever lived. Where do they find the time to watch all of the footage and what books have they been reading? That's why you'll see me popping in threads like this and asking questions rather than making statements whenever guys like Valdez are brought up, whereas I'll actually have things to say when it comes to guys like Marco Antonio Barrera, Gerry Penalosa, Myung Woo Yuh, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez, Orlando Canizales, Muhammad Ali, Bert Cooper, Sumbu Kalambay, etc.
> 
> Perhaps I'll be able to talk more about Valdez and Briscoe in 5 years time after getting through the likes of Jose Napoles, Hilario Zapata, Charley Burley, and Marcel Cerden first.
> 
> So many fighters, so little time.


Briscoe was very good, he just came along at the wrong time.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

fists of fury said:


> Watched two minutes of that shit, and turned it off. Couldn't stand to see what poor Toney had been reduced to.


 I should have done the rbrs


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> I honestly thought Boxing fans would stop talking about James Toney after the Randy Couture pasting.


Partly why I picked him.

He's a complete fuck up with so many different stains, controversies and goofy, terrible decisions (in both directions) in his career but he's a real sweetheart in person allegedly if testiomonials are anything to go off of. Majestically good at what he did, when he was at his best and motivated though.


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> Not really to do, but do you think Valdez and Briscoe are better than Nunn and McCallum though? (at the times fought). I've been trolling this all damn week, so what'd ya think? :think


Briscoe was very good, he just came along at the wrong time.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Hands of Iron said:


> Even got DW to chime in on him. :rofl :deal


:lol: T'was an unexpected turn of events :haggis


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Briscoe was very good, he just came along at the wrong time.


Klompton only describes him as losing 1/3 of his fights in dismissing Monzon's record.


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> Klompton only describes him as losing 1/3 of his fights in dismissing Monzon's record.


Would you favour Toney to beat Kalambay?

Personally I don't know what the hell would happen in that one. Both terrific counter punchers, both are very good defensively.


----------



## turbotime

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Jones, but both is acceptable lol


looool


----------



## LittleRed

Briscoe was a mini Joe Frazier. Just inconsistent and less vim.


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> I haven't seen nearly enough footage of Valdez or Briscoe to properly gauge just how good they were. In fact, the only times I've encountered either of them are in their respective fights with Monzon.
> 
> I'm very impressed with some of our posters who seem to have opinions on nearly every fighter that has ever lived. Where do they find the time to watch all of the footage and what books have they been reading? That's why you'll see me popping in threads like this and asking questions rather than making statements whenever guys like Valdez are brought up, whereas I'll actually have things to say when it comes to guys like Marco Antonio Barrera, Gerry Penalosa, Myung Woo Yuh, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez, Orlando Canizales, Muhammad Ali, Bert Cooper, Sumbu Kalambay, etc.
> 
> Perhaps I'll be able to talk more about Valdez and Briscoe in 5 years time after getting through the likes of Jose Napoles, Hilario Zapata, Charley Burley, and Marcel Cerden first.
> 
> So many fighters, so little time.


You really just have to make the time to do it :lol: I can't believe how many hours I spent at home watching fights it's kinda sad :verysad

I'm glad I got @Hands of Iron back on the 90s mw tain though arty


----------



## mishima

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Who is there left for Rigo to face now he's beaten the king of 122?


Harry King Khan. Rigo will always duck him as he doesn't want that Cuban glass of his to get shattered


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Would you favour Toney to beat Kalambay?
> 
> Personally I don't know what the hell would happen in that one. Both terrific counter punchers, both are very good defensively.


Toney probably has to KO him. :verysad I'm kind of glad that fight never really brought itself to the forefront. i'm content with his wins over Nunn, McCallum, Johnson and the virtuoso display against Barkley to take his 168 strap amongst a few other contenders he took out at 160-168. Youll never really see me singing the same type of praises over his 175-HW years (similar to Roy) even though I thought he was robbed against Griffin and the Jirov/Holy fights were memorable.


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> Toney probably has to KO him. :verysad I'm kind of glad that fight never really brought itself to the forefront. i'm content with his wins over Nunn, McCallum, Johnson and the virtuoso display against Barkley to take his 168 strap amongst a few other contenders he took out at 160-168. Youll never really see me singing the same type of praises over his 175-HW years (similar to Roy) even though I thought he was robbed against Griffin and the Jirov/Holy fights were memorable.


Interesting.

I would always jump to Michael Nunn's defense when people claimed that his knockout over Kalambay was luck. One in a million. Although I think it's a stretch to call the result and the knockout punch luck, I don't think it would happen again even if the two fought ten more times. Sumbu was caught cold in the first round with a very good left hand shot that he didn't see. He's not one to get hit that cleanly, and he's certainly not the type to get counted out. It's a shame really. With so many virtuoso performances under his belt back home and around Europe, he would get knocked out cold in the first round when he fucks off over to the States. I bet Merchant and co. were wondering what all the fuss was about.


----------



## turbotime

Watching Johnson/Toney back last night, the first thing that went through my head when Toney got walloped and dropped was Nunn.Kalambay. Man Johnson creamed him hard with that shot :err


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I would always jump to Michael Nunn's defense when people claimed that his knockout over Kalambay was luck. One in a million. Although I think it's a stretch to call the result and the knockout punch luck, I don't think it would happen again even if the two fought ten more times. Sumbu was caught cold in the first round with a very good left hand shot that he didn't see. He's not one to get hit that cleanly, and he's certainly not the type to get counted out. It's a shame really. With so many virtuoso performances under his belt back home and around Europe, he would get knocked out cold in the first round when he fucks off over to the States. I bet Merchant and co. were wondering what all the fuss was about.


Totally agree, though Nunn is better equipped to deal with him than McCallum or Toney even without the shock KO up his sleeve. Sumbu makes absolutely no excuses for it either, but what he did to Mike is scary.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Watching Johnson/Toney back last night, the first thing that went through my head when Toney got walloped and dropped was Nunn.Kalambay. Man Johnson creamed him hard with that shot :err


I have flat out not seen nearly enough of Johnson. :-(


----------



## turbotime

Guy has SOOOOO many close ones. Man I'd love to sit down and score them all. I think it was Collins? one of the closest fights I've ever seen, ever.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

@Hands of Iron.

Ya it does bother me.. and no there isn't 'that many people' who thinks Roy is the greatest they ever seen.

Certainly not ESB Classics...






I'm calling you out on your Non-Heavyweight Bias right now. I don't know if you are just so into the groove of Toney/Roy that you decided to brush Ali under the rug. but I remember you always had respect and appreciation of Ali's skills.

You tell me watching Ali vs Terrell that he's not close to Roy?

You telling me Roy just BLOWS Ali out of the water in terms of overall athleticism, skill set, and aura of invincibility?

Ali is EVERY bit as impressive as Roy.. the difference he got a granite chin and 5x the resume.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

P4P.. Roy doesn't have faster hands than Ali either. 

Ali was a 218 Pound 6'3 Man with hand speed like a fucking MiddleWeight.
Roy was a 168-175 Pound 5'10 man with hand speed like a Welterweight..
Which is more impressive?


----------



## the cobra

Reggie was real good. Not great, obviously, but a tricky, skillful fighter. Only ever dominated by one guy in his entire career...


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Eastside Boxing Classics p4p

01 - Sam Langford
02 - Harry Greb
03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
04 - Henry Armstrong
05 - Ezzard Charles
06 - Bob Fitzsimmons
*07 - Muhammad Ali*
08 - Joe Gans
09 - Joe Louis
10 - Roberto Duran.
11 - Benny Leonard
12 - Mickey Walker
13 - Willie Pep
14 - Barney Ross
15 - Archie Moore
16 - Ray Leonard
17 - George Dixon
18 - Terry McGovern
19 - Packey McFarland
20 - Pernell Whitaker
21 - Tony Canzoneri
22 - Jimmy McLarnin
23 - Sandy Saddler
24 - Stanley Ketchel
25 - Charley Burley
26 - Holman Williams
27 - Billy Conn
28 - Gene Tunney
29 - Roy Jones

Obviously ...........Roy wasn't the 'greatest' they ever seen :lol:


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> @Hands of Iron.
> 
> Ya it does bother me.. and no there isn't 'that many people' who thinks Roy is the greatest they ever seen.
> 
> Certainly not ESB Classics...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm calling you out on your Non-Heavyweight Bias right now. I don't know if you are just so into the groove of Toney/Roy that you decided to brush Ali under the rug. but I remember you always had respect and appreciation of Ali's skills.
> 
> You tell me watching Ali vs Terrell that he's not close to Roy?
> 
> You telling me Roy just BLOWS Ali out of the water in terms of overall athleticism, skill set, and aura of invincibility?
> 
> Ali is EVERY bit as impressive as Roy.. the difference he got a granite chin and 5x the resume.


There are actually, Felix. I've spoke to a ton of people who say Jones is the best they've seen. Hell I was watching UFC a few weeks back at a bar and people started asking me about Jones.

Jones was faster than Ali at heavyweight too :deal


----------



## FelixTrinidad

turbotime said:


> There are actually, Felix. I've spoke to a ton of people who say Jones is the best they've seen. Hell I was watching UFC a few weeks back at a bar and people started asking me about Jones.
> 
> *Jones was faster than Ali at heavyweight too* :deal


You judge that based on one fight against John Fucking Ruiz?

So you saying Roy is a better fighter than Ali?
I don't believe it but I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Guy has SOOOOO many close ones. Man I'd love to sit down and score them all. I think it was Collins? one of the closest fights I've ever seen, ever.





the cobra said:


> Reggie was real good. Not great, obviously, but a tricky, skillful fighter. Only ever dominated by one guy in his entire career...


You would think that after giving Toney hell I'd of been immediately more interested -- and I was. Just never got 'round to it at the level I'd prefer.



FelixTrinidad said:


> Eastside Boxing Classics p4p
> 
> 01 - Sam Langford
> 02 - Harry Greb
> 03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
> 04 - Henry Armstrong
> 05 - Ezzard Charles
> 06 - Bob Fitzsimmons
> *07 - Muhammad Ali*
> 08 - Joe Gans
> 09 - Joe Louis
> 10 - Roberto Duran.
> 11 - Benny Leonard
> 12 - Mickey Walker
> 13 - Willie Pep
> 14 - Barney Ross
> 15 - Archie Moore
> 16 - Ray Leonard
> 17 - George Dixon
> 18 - Terry McGovern
> 19 - Packey McFarland
> 20 - Pernell Whitaker
> 21 - Tony Canzoneri
> 22 - Jimmy McLarnin
> 23 - Sandy Saddler
> 24 - Stanley Ketchel
> 25 - Charley Burley
> 26 - Holman Williams
> 27 - Billy Conn
> 28 - Gene Tunney
> 29 - Roy Jones
> 
> Obviously ...........Roy wasn't the 'greatest' they ever seen :lol:


OK :lol:
@turbotime this is your business


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You would think that after giving Toney hell I'd of been immediately more interested -- and I was. Just never got 'round to it at the level I'd prefer.
> 
> OK :lol:
> 
> @turbotime this is your business


:lol: Because everyone saw Harry Greb right.


----------



## turbotime

the cobra said:


> Reggie was real good. Not great, obviously, but a tricky, skillful fighter. Only ever dominated by one guy in his entire career...


----------



## Pedderrs

Now that we're producing footage that's just as impressive if not more so than Roy.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Jones was faster than Ali at heavyweight too :deal


Jones was never a true heavyweight though, and he was considerably smaller than Ali. he weighed like 195 pounds for the Ruiz fight. that's basically Floyd Patterson's weight and Floyd was faster than Roy & hit harder.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Jones was never a true heavyweight though, and he was considerably smaller than Ali. he weighed like 195 pounds for the Ruiz fight. that's basically Floyd Patterson's weight and Floyd was faster than Roy & hit harder.


I was just teasing Felix.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hands of Iron said:


> You would think that after giving Toney hell I'd of been immediately more interested -- and I was. Just never got 'round to it at the level I'd prefer.
> 
> OK :lol:
> 
> @turbotime this is your business


Man fuck this than. 
How the fuck can you thumb your nose at the posters which worked on that list regarding Roy and Ali's placement.. when you yourself agree with so many of them regarding Whitaker,Duran,Leonard,Robinson etc and 'respects' so many of those posters??
Isn't that agenda based?

The bottom line is this: *Muhammad Ali IS GREATER than Roy Jones JR.*
There is no debate. It's not an fucking opinion. It's cast iron fact.
It's also cast iron fact Ali would have won 12 of 12 rounds against Roy (assuming he don't want to KO Roy)

You can't possibly think Roy is the greatest fighter you ever seen.. and we both know it.
It's cool though.

I'm enjoying my Round by Round success of Tua.. I might just rob Alabama of his job.


----------



## tommygun711

FelixTrinidad said:


> @Hands of Iron.
> 
> Ya it does bother me.. and no there isn't 'that many people' who thinks Roy is the greatest they ever seen.
> 
> I'm calling you out on your Non-Heavyweight Bias right now. I don't know if you are just so into the groove of Toney/Roy that you decided to brush Ali under the rug. but I remember you always had respect and appreciation of Ali's skills.
> 
> You tell me watching Ali vs Terrell that he's not close to Roy?
> 
> You telling me Roy just BLOWS Ali out of the water in terms of overall athleticism, skill set, and aura of invincibility?
> 
> Ali is EVERY bit as impressive as Roy.. the difference he got a granite chin and 5x the resume.


Got to agree with this, Ali>Roy anyway you look at it.. Terrell was a very good opponent and beat some good fighters in his day but he was no match for Ali. I liked seeing him deal with a bigger opponent in this fight.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Wait.. what about Robinson? 

And before you guys go 'ROY would have KTFO out Robinson'
well .. Tyson would have KTFO out of Roy.

I mean it's absurd saying Roy is the GREATEST and than yawn.. and casually brush off every other fighter by linking videos of Jones Jr highlights.



This is my list of pure eye test over fighters that I actually SEEN.

1-Muhammad Ali(seen 18 fights of his)
2-Sugar Ray Robinson (thanks for that recent fight upload to add to my experience)
3-Sugar Ray Leonard(Seen 6 fights of his)
4-Pernell Whitaker (Seen 4 fights of his)
5-Roy Jones Jr (Seen 14 fights of his)

I just feel like Leonard,Robinson, and Ali did it against better opposition.. than Roy.
If we are going by SHEER EYE TEST and not factoring in opposition.

Mike Tyson's 80's run was the 'best fighter' I ever seen. lol


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> Wait.. what about Robinson?
> 
> And before you guys go 'ROY would have KTFO out Robinson'
> well .. Tyson would have KTFO out of Roy.
> 
> I mean it's absurd saying Roy is the GREATEST and than yawn.. and casually brush off every other fighter by linking videos of Jones Jr highlights.
> 
> This is my list of pure eye test over fighters that I actually SEEN.
> 
> 1-Muhammad Ali(seen 18 fights of his)
> 2-Sugar Ray Robinson (thanks for that recent fight upload to add to my experience)
> 3-Sugar Ray Leonard(Seen 6 fights of his)
> 4-Pernell Whitaker (Seen 4 fights of his)
> 5-Roy Jones Jr (Seen 14 fights of his)
> 
> I just feel like Leonard,Robinson, and Ali did it against better opposition.. than Roy.
> If we are going by SHEER EYE TEST and not factoring in opposition.
> 
> Mike Tyson's 80's run was the 'best fighter' I ever seen. lol


I respect your opinion brother Felix. I also feel Tyson doesn't get enough credit. He looked amazing.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

turbotime said:


> I respect your opinion brother Felix. I also feel Tyson doesn't get enough credit. He looked amazing.


It's actually a testament to Roy's greatness that I'm arguing over weather he's #5-6 on the eye test or #1 ...............

I guess I feel strongly about Roy because aside from Lennox Lewis .. I seen the MOST fights over Ali and Roy........... Not because I'm a Roy fan.. but because I was so intrigued by him.. 
So I feel like IN THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC. I do want to voice my opinions because I actually seen 10+ fights of Roy and have a solid basis of understanding in regards to his skills.


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> It's actually a testament to Roy's greatness that I'm arguing over weather he's #5-6 on the eye test or #1 ...............


This doesn't have anything to do with what he did to your family personally, does it?


----------



## FelixTrinidad

turbotime said:


> This doesn't have anything to do with what he did to your family personally, does it?


:lol:


----------



## tommygun711

FelixTrinidad said:


> 2-Sugar Ray Robinson (thanks for that recent fight upload to add to my experience)
> *3-Sugar Ray Leonard(Seen 6 fights of his)
> 4-Pernell Whitaker (Seen 4 fights of his)*
> 5-Roy Jones Jr (Seen 14 fights of his)
> 
> I just feel like Leonard,Robinson, and Ali did it against better opposition.. than Roy.
> If we are going by SHEER EYE TEST and not factoring in opposition.
> 
> Mike Tyson's 80's run was the 'best fighter' I ever seen. lol


That's it?? You're slacking m8, which fights have you seen from Whitaker and Leonard?


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> :lol:


:lol:

Time to let it go!


----------



## FelixTrinidad

tommygun711 said:


> That's it?? You're slacking m8, which fights have you seen from Whitaker and Leonard?


Leonard Benitez
Lenard Duran I and II
Leonard Hagler
Leonard Hearns I
Leonard vs Special AK

I know it's only six.. but that's ENOUGH for me to judge Leonard as one of the greatest I SEEN based on MY eye test.

Those 6 fights were against 4 different ATG'S and one very good fighter(undefeated at the time). That's enough of an 'eye test' exam.. for me to rate Leonard as one of the best.(Opinion)


----------



## tommygun711

FelixTrinidad said:


> Leonard Benitez
> Lenard Duran I and II
> Leonard Hagler
> Leonard Hearns I
> Leonard vs Special AK
> 
> I know it's only six.. but that's ENOUGH for me to judge Leonard as one of the greatest I SEEN based on MY eye test.
> 
> Those 6 fights were against 4 different ATG'S and one very good fighter(undefeated at the time). That's enough of an 'eye test' exam.. for me to rate Leonard as one of the best.(Opinion)


Well yeah, you've seen his most important fights anyway.. watch Leonard vs Kalule and Mayweather Sr as well though.

And what about Whitaker?


----------



## fists of fury

FelixTrinidad said:


> Eastside Boxing Classics p4p
> 
> 01 - Sam Langford
> 02 - Harry Greb
> 03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
> 04 - Henry Armstrong
> 05 - Ezzard Charles
> 06 - Bob Fitzsimmons
> *07 - Muhammad Ali*
> 08 - Joe Gans
> 09 - Joe Louis
> 10 - Roberto Duran.
> 11 - Benny Leonard
> 12 - Mickey Walker
> 13 - Willie Pep
> 14 - Barney Ross
> 15 - Archie Moore
> 16 - Ray Leonard
> 17 - George Dixon
> 18 - Terry McGovern
> 19 - Packey McFarland
> 20 - Pernell Whitaker
> 21 - Tony Canzoneri
> 22 - Jimmy McLarnin
> 23 - Sandy Saddler
> 24 - Stanley Ketchel
> 25 - Charley Burley
> 26 - Holman Williams
> 27 - Billy Conn
> 28 - Gene Tunney
> 29 - Roy Jones
> 
> Obviously ...........Roy wasn't the 'greatest' they ever seen :lol:


With the greatest respect to ESB Classic, every poster has their favourites, and Ali being Ali he has a shitload of fans. I don't believe Ali to be P4P better than Ray Leonard, Duran or Whitaker. To be honest, I think I'd struggle to have him in a top 10, if I had to seriously think about it.


----------



## turbotime

fists of fury said:


> With the greatest respect to ESB Classic, every poster has their favourites, and Ali being Ali he has a shitload of fans. I don't believe Ali to be P4P better than Ray Leonard, Duran or Whitaker. To be honest, I think I'd struggle to have him in a top 10, if I had to seriously think about it.


:deal


----------



## Hands of Iron

@fists of fury You're a good man.


----------



## tommygun711

fists of fury said:


> With the greatest respect to ESB Classic, every poster has their favourites, and Ali being Ali he has a shitload of fans. I don't believe Ali to be P4P better than Ray Leonard, Duran or Whitaker. To be honest, I think I'd struggle to have him in a top 10, if I had to seriously think about it.


well when comparing him to those guys because Ali didn't have the options those guys did, being a heavyweight and all.. the difference is that when Ali was still a reasonable fighter (not counting his fights against Berbick and Holmes) he avenged all of his losses, regardless of what people say about the third Norton fight. That's more than what more fighters can do regardless of the weight.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> well when comparing him to those guys because Ali didn't have the options those guys did, being a heavyweight and all.. the difference is that when Ali was still a reasonable fighter (not counting his fights against Berbick and Holmes) he avenged all of his losses, regardless of what people say about the third Norton fight. That's more than what more fighters can do regardless of the weight.


I mean yeah, he's aces at Heavyweight but it's not like these fighters cherrypicked their way through weights either. If it wasn't for Duran moving up he'd just simply be a great operator at lightweight.


----------



## turbotime

Get outta here Sittin Sonny.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Get outta here Sittin Sonny.


Lol that guy doesn't like you. :smile


----------



## LittleRed

Tko 6 was never this informative.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Lol that guy doesn't like you. :smile


I don't think a lot do, to be honest :lol:


----------



## turbotime

LittleRed said:


> Tko 6 was never this informative.


Klittards DKSAB that's why :lol: it's nice to not have them here.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> I have flat out not seen nearly enough of Johnson. :-(


Locomotora 1,2, J.D.Jackson were pretty controversial.

The Lamar Parks fight is one of Reggie's best performances against a dangerous opponent.

Parks was an interesting fighter too.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

LittleRed said:


> Tko 6 was never this informative.


tko6 was a lot funner though.

You could FEEL the passion from both sides. I loved tko6 because it kept Heavyweight talk on the Boxing Forums extremely active.

It wasn't just ESB.. the sheer amount of epic threads were mind staggering, expanding even as far as the Russian Sites.
Pre ESB Crash.. there was this one thread 'Lewis would have KTFO out Vitali in the 7th Round' that literally achieved levels(both sides)that make Dealt_With's nut hugging look Amateur.

I miss the Klittards............... I wonder where they went.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> Locomotora 1,2, J.D.Jackson were pretty controversial.
> 
> The Lamar Parks fight is one of Reggie's best performances against a dangerous opponent.
> 
> Parks was an interesting fighter too.


Thanks, Lest. It's only been Toney, Collins and Jones Jr


----------



## fists of fury

Hands of Iron said:


> @fists of fury You're a good man.


Thank you kindly, sir. :smile


----------



## fists of fury

FelixTrinidad said:


> I miss the Klittards............... I wonder where they went.


Most of the ones I know of are still over at ESB. I don't think they like this place very much. :lol:


----------



## MadcapMaxie

fists of fury said:


> With the greatest respect to ESB Classic, every poster has their favourites, and Ali being Ali he has a shitload of fans. I don't believe Ali to be P4P better than Ray Leonard, Duran or Whitaker. To be honest, I think I'd struggle to have him in a top 10, if I had to seriously think about it.


I have to disagree. I can't recall many other fighters who beat 3 opponents who could be ranked in the top 10 of their respective weight class in dominant fashion, 4 in the top 20 (Depending on your rankings) plus a legion of very good contenders/champions. Add to this he is for many people the H2H King at the weight and you have enough merit IMO.


----------



## Bukkake

fists of fury said:


> Most of the ones I know of are still over at ESB. I don't think they like this place very much. :lol:


I've noticed a big difference between CHB and ESB, when it comes to what people are "allowed" to post, without being totally ridiculed.

It seems, like all the "I-know-everything-and-if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-a-moron" historians hang out over there... and if someone started a thread like this (or claim that Mayweather is an ATG) in the Classic forum, he would be crucified!


----------



## fists of fury

Guys in Classic like Senya and Powerpuncher would back up Turbo though. Maybe Seamus too. If you can back up what you say over there, the other posters will respect that. The general forum is still a mess, though. 

...Just downloaded some Golovkin fights last night...I can see what the fuss is about. Can this guy crack or what? But the thing that impresses me the most is his calmness and composure. He reminds me a little of a bigger JCC in that he's all smiles and doesn't even look remotely threatening, nor is he that spectacular to watch, until you start noticing all the little things he's doing. 
His composure is almost unsettling, in a way.


----------



## Pedderrs

One for the so-called eye test.

Ranzany wasn't a great operator but he was tough. Didn't matter. Ray fucked him up bad.


----------



## turbotime

Bukkake said:


> I've noticed a big difference between CHB and ESB, when it comes to what people are "allowed" to post, without being totally ridiculed.
> 
> It seems, like all the "I-know-everything-and-if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-a-moron" historians hang out over there... and if someone started a thread like this (or claim that Mayweather is an ATG) in the Classic forum, he would be crucified!


No fighter is above ridicule though.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Bukkake said:


> I've noticed a big difference between CHB and ESB, when it comes to what people are "allowed" to post, without being totally ridiculed.
> 
> It seems, like all the "I-know-everything-and-if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-a-moron" historians hang out over there... and if someone started a thread like this (or claim that Mayweather is an ATG) in the Classic forum, he would be crucified!


:lol: :deal

Though it was starting to shift before most made the move here.



turbotime said:


> No fighter is above ridicule though.


Did you see Roy and Tyson hanging out last night?


----------



## Hands of Iron

fists of fury said:


> Guys in Classic like Senya and Powerpuncher would back up Turbo though. Maybe Seamus too. If you can back up what you say over there, the other posters will respect that. The general forum is still a mess, though.
> 
> ...Just downloaded some Golovkin fights last night...I can see what the fuss is about. Can this guy crack or what? But the thing that impresses me the most is his calmness and composure. He reminds me a little of a bigger JCC in that he's all smiles and doesn't even look remotely threatening, nor is he that spectacular to watch, until you start noticing all the little things he's doing.
> His composure is almost unsettling, in a way.


Pachilles as well :lol: I remember Senya going on about Malinga being better than Gene Fullmer when people were comparing the Robinson KO to the one Jones pulled off.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> One for the so-called eye test.
> 
> Ranzany wasn't a great operator but he was tough. Didn't matter. Ray fucked him up bad.


The SRR/SRL thread in Historical makes me want to hurl my lunch back up.


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> The SRR/SRL thread in Historical makes me want to hurl my lunch back up.


You think SRL is better, or you think the people writing off SRL are full of shit?


----------



## Luf

Jones is number 3 on my list:

Robinson 
Whittaker
Jones
Armstrong 
Duran 
Leonard
Ali
Pep
Hagler
Hearns


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> You think SRL is better, or you think the people writing off SRL are full of shit?


The latter. I'm not whining from a distance, I responded to that thread on the very first page.


----------



## Hands of Iron

And just now as well. :hey


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: :deal
> 
> Though it was starting to shift before most made the move here.
> 
> Did you see Roy and Tyson hanging out last night?


Jones, Leonard and Tyson. H2h Monsters :deal



Luf said:


> Jones is number 3 on my list:
> 
> Robinson
> Whittaker
> Jones
> Armstrong
> Duran
> Leonard
> Ali
> Pep
> Hagler
> Hearns


I lose 2 minutes of my life whenever you spell Pea's name wrong luf :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

Whittaker and Sweat Pea


----------



## turbotime

Pea.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Jones, Leonard and Tyson. H2h Monsters :deal
> 
> I lose 2 minutes of my life whenever you spell Pea's name wrong luf :lol:


Firstly, I think of their considerable talent, abilties, skills and physical build/dimensions/attributes though H2H is essentially tied into these very things. Absolute thoroughbreds at their peak weight classes.

Toney is still more aesthetically pleasing doe.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Briscoe - Klompton only describes him as losing 1/3 of his fights in dismissing Monzon's record.





LittleRed said:


> Briscoe was a mini Joe Frazier. Just inconsistent and less vim.


Old Briscoe made Hagler run for his life.

Prime Bennie stops Hagler in 4.

Henry Hank - 2 rounds.


----------



## turbotime

ffs :lol:

QUOTE=Hands of Iron;706228]

Toney is still more aesthetically pleasing doe. [/QUOTE]


----------



## fists of fury

Hands of Iron said:


> Pachilles as well :lol: I remember Senya going on about Malinga being better than Gene Fullmer when people were comparing the Robinson KO to the one Jones pulled off.


:smile I think I recall that actually.


----------



## fists of fury

Hands of Iron said:


> The SRR/SRL thread in Historical makes me want to hurl my lunch back up.


I noticed that you just dropped a hand grenade in that thread. (Your last post.)


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> ffs :lol:


Toney looks fantastic even when he's losing rounds :rofl via "inactivity" -- he's stationary slick, patient and you know where to find him. Fuck all that movement son. Gawd how can you not dig the style???


----------



## turbotime

Jones isn't much of a runner, either. He just knows when to use his legs :deal


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Jones isn't much of a runner, either. He just knows when to use his legs :deal


Just be quiet and watch the Littles fight again today. :lol: :deal Doesn't go past four rounds, so it isn't time consuming and there's four KD's.. Toney is so damn relaxed in the ring. :smug


----------



## turbotime

:lol: I watched it bud, Toney took some bombs too


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :lol: I watched it bud, Toney took some bombs too


It's one of my all-time favorites. :deal Littles didn't make too much of his career after that, though at the time he was rated as a Top 5 SMW.


----------



## turbotime

Man I've been looking back at these guys a lot and it's crazy how a lot of them had fights with eachother, and they took a LOT out of eachother. I wish Hopkins got a chance earlier on besides having to fight Roy fucking Jones.. Don King you slimy cunt scumbag :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron

fists of fury said:


> I noticed that you just dropped a hand grenade in that thread. (Your last post.)


But how out of line do you consider it, really? Aside from Kid Gavilan, there isn't anybody on his ledger at the times he fought them that I'd put in the same class as Hearns, Benitez, Duran or Hagler. I think even '87 Hagler cuts guys like Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin and LaMotta to ribbons. None of them can hurt him, his form and technique are superior IMO and he's a far more versatile operator. Sometimes people need the reality check that Hagler was considered #1 P4P and hadn't "lost" in over. A decade. Hearns and Benitez were as prime as they could get for 147 and were exactly the sort Robinson was too pretty for.


----------



## fists of fury

Hands of Iron said:


> But how out of line do you consider it, really? Aside from Kid Gavilan, there isn't anybody on his ledger at the times he fought them that I'd put in the same class as Hearns, Benitez, Duran or Hagler. I think even '87 Hagler cuts guys like Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin and LaMotta to ribbons. None of them can hurt him, his form and technique are superior IMO and he's a far more versatile operator. Sometimes people need the reality check that Hagler was considered #1 P4P and hadn't "lost" in over. A decade. Hearns and Benitez were as prime as they could get for 147 and were exactly the sort Robinson was too pretty for.


I didn't say I disagree, just that if I know Classic/Historical posters, their reactions should be quite amusing. Leonard's ledger is stacked with quality wins and although I haven't really given it too much thought, I don't think I'd strongly disagree with you even if I did.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Man I've been looking back at these guys a lot and it's crazy how a lot of them had fights with eachother, and they took a LOT out of eachother. I wish Hopkins got a chance earlier on besides having to fight Roy fucking Jones.. Don King you slimy cunt scumbag :-(


Mike McCallum was probably the biggest G in terms of fighting them all. Just look at his version of "Best I Fought" to get a grasp of the immense range of top notch fighters and styles he went up against. *He's an unbelievable MAN.

Best overall: James Toney -- He wasn't a complete fighter the first time we fought, and I still believe I won that fight. But he learned in that fight and he got better. He grew with each fight. By our third fight, he was a different fighter, a complete fighter. He was someone who could do it all, fight inside or outside, work offense and defense at the same time, just like me when I was younger. I like to think that I helped James mature as a fighter.

Best boxer: Herol Graham -- He was a pure boxer, a southpaw and very elusive. It wasn't easy to hit him. He was very smart, very skilled.

Best puncher: Julian Jackson -- He hit me so hard! Julian wasn't just powerful, he was also real quick. I got caught by a right hand in the first round of our fight and I remember thinking "What's wrong with my legs?" I tried my best to hide it from him. I knew I had to take him out as soon as I could.

Best defense: Sumbu Kalambay -- I fought many good defensive fighters. Toney had a good defense. Graham was slippery. Jones was fast and slick, but Kalambay is No. 1. I can't forget about him. He's the first fighter to beat me and it's because of his good movement. He was always sliding side to side, very shifty. He was a dangerous boy.

Fastest hands: Jackson -- He was quick, man. That's why he got so many knockouts. Everyone focused on his power and then he'd get you with a punch you didn't see. They landed on you -- boom! -- from out of nowhere. Kalambay and Toney were also fast. So was Jones, obviously, but I fought him when I was older and had slowed down a bit.

Fastest feet: Roy Jones -- He had very quick feet. He was elusive just because of his footwork.

Best chin: Steve Collins -- I almost said Toney, but Collins had the best chin. I hit him right on his chin all night and he wouldn't budge. I couldn't hit Toney that much and when I did, he backed off. Collins walked through punches.

Best jab: Donald Curry -- I fought many fighters with good jabs. Kalambay could win fights with just his jab. McCrory had a good, hard jab. But Curry's was the best. I see why they called him "the Cobra" because he didn't miss with it. He was a bad man with that jab.

Strongest: Michael Watson -- Oh my God, he was so strong. That's why that fight was so hard. It was a gruesome fight, 11 rounds of back-and-forth hell.

Smartest: Roy Jones Jr. -- I fought quite a few smart boys in my time. Graham was a cunning S.O.B. I remember him sticking his tongue out at me whenever I'd miss a punch. Kalambay was smart and so was Toney, although he didn't have the experience to back it up when we first fought. But I think Roy may have been the smartest. He was very clever, which didn't surprise me. I knew he was sharp. It was like he was always one step ahead of me.*
@PityTheFool


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Mike McCallum was probably the biggest G in terms of fighting them all. Just look at his version of "Best I Fought" to get a grasp of the immense range of top notch fighters and styles he went up against. *He's an unbelievable MAN.
> 
> Best overall: James Toney -- He wasn't a complete fighter the first time we fought, and I still believe I won that fight. But he learned in that fight and he got better. He grew with each fight. By our third fight, he was a different fighter, a complete fighter. He was someone who could do it all, fight inside or outside, work offense and defense at the same time, just like me when I was younger. I like to think that I helped James mature as a fighter.
> 
> Best boxer: Herol Graham -- He was a pure boxer, a southpaw and very elusive. It wasn't easy to hit him. He was very smart, very skilled.
> 
> Best puncher: Julian Jackson -- He hit me so hard! Julian wasn't just powerful, he was also real quick. I got caught by a right hand in the first round of our fight and I remember thinking "What's wrong with my legs?" I tried my best to hide it from him. I knew I had to take him out as soon as I could.
> 
> Best defense: Sumbu Kalambay -- I fought many good defensive fighters. Toney had a good defense. Graham was slippery. Jones was fast and slick, but Kalambay is No. 1. I can't forget about him. He's the first fighter to beat me and it's because of his good movement. He was always sliding side to side, very shifty. He was a dangerous boy.
> 
> Fastest hands: Jackson -- He was quick, man. That's why he got so many knockouts. Everyone focused on his power and then he'd get you with a punch you didn't see. They landed on you -- boom! -- from out of nowhere. Kalambay and Toney were also fast. So was Jones, obviously, but I fought him when I was older and had slowed down a bit.
> 
> Fastest feet: Roy Jones -- He had very quick feet. He was elusive just because of his footwork.
> 
> Best chin: Steve Collins -- I almost said Toney, but Collins had the best chin. I hit him right on his chin all night and he wouldn't budge. I couldn't hit Toney that much and when I did, he backed off. Collins walked through punches.
> 
> Best jab: Donald Curry -- I fought many fighters with good jabs. Kalambay could win fights with just his jab. McCrory had a good, hard jab. But Curry's was the best. I see why they called him "the Cobra" because he didn't miss with it. He was a bad man with that jab.
> 
> Strongest: Michael Watson -- Oh my God, he was so strong. That's why that fight was so hard. It was a gruesome fight, 11 rounds of back-and-forth hell.
> 
> Smartest: Roy Jones Jr. -- I fought quite a few smart boys in my time. Graham was a cunning S.O.B. I remember him sticking his tongue out at me whenever I'd miss a punch. Kalambay was smart and so was Toney, although he didn't have the experience to back it up when we first fought. But I think Roy may have been the smartest. He was very clever, which didn't surprise me. I knew he was sharp. It was like he was always one step ahead of me.*
> 
> @PityTheFool


It made me smile to see him and Oskee alongside eachother in McGrain's ratings thread


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> Mike McCallum was probably the biggest G in terms of fighting them all. Just look at his version of "Best I Fought" to get a grasp of the immense range of top notch fighters and styles he went up against. *He's an unbelievable MAN.
> 
> Best overall: James Toney -- He wasn't a complete fighter the first time we fought, and I still believe I won that fight. But he learned in that fight and he got better. He grew with each fight. By our third fight, he was a different fighter, a complete fighter. He was someone who could do it all, fight inside or outside, work offense and defense at the same time, just like me when I was younger. I like to think that I helped James mature as a fighter.
> 
> Best boxer: Herol Graham -- He was a pure boxer, a southpaw and very elusive. It wasn't easy to hit him. He was very smart, very skilled.
> 
> Best puncher: Julian Jackson -- He hit me so hard! Julian wasn't just powerful, he was also real quick. I got caught by a right hand in the first round of our fight and I remember thinking "What's wrong with my legs?" I tried my best to hide it from him. I knew I had to take him out as soon as I could.
> 
> Best defense: Sumbu Kalambay -- I fought many good defensive fighters. Toney had a good defense. Graham was slippery. Jones was fast and slick, but Kalambay is No. 1. I can't forget about him. He's the first fighter to beat me and it's because of his good movement. He was always sliding side to side, very shifty. He was a dangerous boy.
> 
> Fastest hands: Jackson -- He was quick, man. That's why he got so many knockouts. Everyone focused on his power and then he'd get you with a punch you didn't see. They landed on you -- boom! -- from out of nowhere. Kalambay and Toney were also fast. So was Jones, obviously, but I fought him when I was older and had slowed down a bit.
> 
> Fastest feet: Roy Jones -- He had very quick feet. He was elusive just because of his footwork.
> 
> Best chin: Steve Collins -- I almost said Toney, but Collins had the best chin. I hit him right on his chin all night and he wouldn't budge. I couldn't hit Toney that much and when I did, he backed off. Collins walked through punches.
> 
> Best jab: Donald Curry -- I fought many fighters with good jabs. Kalambay could win fights with just his jab. McCrory had a good, hard jab. But Curry's was the best. I see why they called him "the Cobra" because he didn't miss with it. He was a bad man with that jab.
> 
> Strongest: Michael Watson -- Oh my God, he was so strong. That's why that fight was so hard. It was a gruesome fight, 11 rounds of back-and-forth hell.
> 
> Smartest: Roy Jones Jr. -- I fought quite a few smart boys in my time. Graham was a cunning S.O.B. I remember him sticking his tongue out at me whenever I'd miss a punch. Kalambay was smart and so was Toney, although he didn't have the experience to back it up when we first fought. But I think Roy may have been the smartest. He was very clever, which didn't surprise me. I knew he was sharp. It was like he was always one step ahead of me.*
> 
> @PityTheFool


Lovely read.Thank you.
Seems like my five favourite wins aren't too far off the mark,and nice to see Watson get a mention.
I just couldn't put it in the 5 because I feel so bad for Watson.His win over Benn is one of my favourite childhood performances.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> It made me smile to see him and Oskee alongside eachother in McGrain's ratings thread


He's in my top ten  (best). Toney-McCallum I = GOAT.



PityTheFool said:


> Lovely read.Thank you.
> Seems like my five favourite wins aren't too far off the mark,and nice to see Watson get a mention.
> I just couldn't put it in the 5 because I feel so bad for Watson.His win over Benn is one of my favourite childhood performances.


Hearns didn't want it. :deal


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> He's in my top ten  (best). Toney-McCallum I = GOAT.
> 
> Hearns didn't want it. :deal


Manny had seen what Mike could do.I love Tommy but Mike is a nightmare for him at 154-160.
I honestly believe prime McCallum would stop Tommy late.
Aside from that,McCallum's resume is absolutely frightening.You can go back to '84 but from '87 onwards it is as good a resume as you'll see from the 80's and 90's.
I'm not convinced that given the timelines,he wouldn't have gave Marvin real trouble either.
Bit of better luck and timing and he could've made a real dent in the Fab 4 story.


----------



## turbotime

Hearns could give McCallum the Salambay treatment. Regardless though


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> Manny had seen what Mike could do.I love Tommy but Mike is a nightmare for him at 154-160.
> I honestly believe prime McCallum would stop Tommy late.
> Aside from that,McCallum's resume is absolutely frightening.You can go back to '84 but from '87 onwards it is as good a resume as you'll see from the 80's and 90's.
> I'm not convinced that given the timelines,he wouldn't have gave Marvin real trouble either.
> Bit of better luck and timing and he could've made a real dent in the Fab 4 story.


How about the '81 Sugar Man of the Kalule fight? :yikes

Leonard was one nasty fuck over the '81-'82 short time period. He was definitely about to hit his peak in all respects.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Hands of Iron said:


> Toney looks fantastic even when he's losing rounds :rofl via "inactivity" -- he's stationary slick, patient and you know where to find him. Fuck all that movement son. Gawd how can you not dig the style???





turbotime said:


> Jones isn't much of a runner, either. He just knows when to use his legs :deal


I know he isn't a runner. :lol: I was speaking just in general and sensationalizing what I dig. There's a reason I said I liked 147 Pea over lightweight and its cause he fought off the backfoot less often and would stand in the pocket over longer stretches. I like big Floyd a little better too. I said this stuff before.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Hearns could give McCallum the Salambay treatment. Regardless though


You think Hearns is defensively consistent & responsible enough to replicate Salambay's performance? I could see Hearns getting overzealous and leaving himself open for McCallum to catch him and knock him out


----------



## Hands of Iron

And sure Pea was obviously more dominant at 135 but his opposition above it shits on Nelson and the likes of old ass Jose Luis Rami.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Dealt_with said:


> :huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


:rofl :yep


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> How about the '81 Sugar Man of the Kalule fight? :yikes
> 
> Leonard was one nasty fuck over the '81-'82 short time period. He was definitely about to hit his peak in all respects.


For reasons I'm sure you'll understand,I prefer not to think of that.


----------



## PityTheFool

tommygun711 said:


> You think Hearns is defensively consistent & responsible enough to replicate Salambay's performance? I could see Hearns getting overzealous and leaving himself open for McCallum to catch him and knock him out


I just can't see Tommy fighting in a style that Mike wouldn't expose at some point.Kalambay was a defensive master,and it took me a while to appreciate the brilliance of that performance.
Mike would be able to roll off Tommy's jab and had a fabulous overhand left that was a vicious weapon and exactly the type of punch Tommy would be susceptible to when it comes in the bunches style that McCallum used when he got warmed up.You can see him using a sort of roll,chamber and step in with flowing hurtful punches.
There are a lot of posters well aware of how good McCallum is,but @Hands of Iron is doing a great job of getting him some big respect away from the Historical.


----------



## LittleRed

Hands of Iron said:


> And sure Pea was obviously more dominant at 135 but his opposition above it shits on Nelson and the likes of old ass Jose Luis Rami.


Nelson better than Toney.


----------



## Hands of Iron

LittleRed said:


> Nelson better than Toney.


I don't think it would've really mattered, but its true Nelson did fck all at lightweight. Its still probably Pea's greatest boxing performance. McGirt II was entertaining as fuck.


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> I just can't see Tommy fighting in a style that Mike wouldn't expose at some point.Kalambay was a defensive master,and it took me a while to appreciate the brilliance of that performance.
> Mike would be able to roll off Tommy's jab and had a fabulous overhand left that was a vicious weapon and exactly the type of punch Tommy would be susceptible to when it comes in the bunches style that McCallum used when he got warmed up.You can see him using a sort of roll,chamber and step in with flowing hurtful punches.
> There are a lot of posters well aware of how good McCallum is,but @Hands of Iron is doing a great job of getting him some big respect away from the Historical.


McCallum just looks boring on film to a lot of people.


----------



## turbotime

I don't know TommyG. Barkley forced a war, as did Hagler when it comes down to it. Maybe McCallum gets outboxed, maybe he doesn't. Does he force that awkard war on Hearns? Hearns outboxed a guy who is very very similar in Benitez.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> McCallum just looks boring on film to a lot of people.


Simplicity is the hardest to see.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Simplicity is the hardest to see.


He did many things right at a higher level than most. A bit naturally flat footed, but he had some nice little subtle steps to his footwork to make up for it. His upper body defensive movement was quite good IMO.


----------



## turbotime

The Mayweather era opinion has ruined how good boxer/punchers styles were back then. Heaven forbid you stand still and throw a 3 punch combo. Brawlers lol


----------



## FelixTrinidad

I wanna see Roy fight my Uncle's friend now... The dude is finally in his prime at age 36 and have sparred for Yoan Pablo Hernandez, Marco Huck, Alexander Povetkin, and Chris Arreloa.

I honestly will love to see a rematch.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Don't forget everyone. Roy's fighting next month.
I'll be doing the RBRS.


----------



## Hands of Iron

This era is inferior :smug

Seriously nothing but little whiny, bitchy fans in the WBF. :-( This Ward-Golovkin shit is especially retarded to me.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> The Mayweather era opinion has ruined how good boxer/punchers styles were back then. Heaven forbid you stand still and throw a 3 punch combo. Brawlers lol


Roy/Pea/Toney vs Floyd/Ward/Rigo

Which trio you taking?


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy/Pea/Toney vs Floyd/Ward/Rigo
> 
> Which trio you taking?


:lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :lol:


"I went 12 rounds with Julian Jackson, I'm not concerned about him"






Jones in the opposite corner :rofl That shit is probably my favorite I even went a made my own GIF a while back on ESB.


----------



## JMP

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy/Pea/Toney vs Floyd/Ward/Rigo
> 
> Which trio you taking?


For me, Mayweather can fit in with any grouping you want to put him in historically as he's one of the most impressive fighters I've ever seen on film, but Ward and Rigondeaux ruin that comparison for me. Ward just comes across as a sloppier/lesser version of Bernard Hopkins with a bit more athleticism. Give me guys like John Conteh, Victor Galindez, MSM, EMM, and DMQ over Ward any day of the week in head-to-head matchups. I'll admit also that I'm a bit disgruntled with the fact that Andre Ward is the number two pound for pound and plenty of fans think he's subliminally skilled and damn near flawless....that's my penchant for historical comparisons coming through. I'm just of the belief that I've seen a number of more impressive fighters on film than Ward.

Rigondeaux, as great a pure boxer as he is, only excels at that one area. He's not nearly as rounded as Whitaker, not as athletic as Jones, and while Toney had stylistic limitations of his own, he was very capable of employing a wider variety of tactics than Rigondeaux could manage. Plus he had a more varied and complete offensive game.


----------



## LittleRed

Hands of Iron said:


> I don't think it would've really mattered, but its true Nelson did fck all at lightweight. Its still probably Pea's greatest boxing performance. McGirt II was entertaining as fuck.


Chavez did nothing at 147. Pea's best win probably oskee.


----------



## Hands of Iron

JMP said:


> For me, Mayweather can fit in with any grouping you want to put him in historically as he's one of the most impressive fighters I've ever seen on film, but Ward and Rigondeaux ruin that comparison for me. Ward just comes across as a sloppier/lesser version of Bernard Hopkins with a bit more athleticism. Give me guys like John Conteh, Victor Galindez, MSM, EMM, and DMQ over Ward any day of the week in head-to-head matchups. I'll admit also that I'm a bit disgruntled with the fact that Andre Ward is the number two pound for pound and plenty of fans think he's subliminally skilled and damn near flawless....that's my penchant for historical comparisons coming through. I'm just of the belief that I've seen a number of more impressive fighters on film than Ward.
> 
> Rigondeaux, as great a pure boxer as he is, only excels at that one area. He's not nearly as rounded as Whitaker, not as athletic as Jones, and while Toney had stylistic limitations of his own, he was very capable of employing a wider variety of tactics than Rigondeaux could manage. Plus he had a more varied and complete offensive game.


They're merely today's news, really. I doubt I'll be looking back in 20 years with the same type of reverence. No, not even a week from now.



LittleRed said:


> Chavez did nothing at 147. Pea's best win probably oskee.


Love what you did there. :lol:

Are we unintentionally taking a dump on Sweat Pea Whittaker's record here? :-( Cause I still like it over Floyd's pretty comfortably.


----------



## LittleRed

It's a really good resume. Better than Mayweather but is it better than pac?


----------



## turbotime

LittleRed said:


> Chavez did nothing at 147. Pea's best win probably oskee.


:err


----------



## Hands of Iron

LittleRed said:


> It's a really good resume. Better than Mayweather but is it better than pac?


Prolly, though I do like Pac's MAB I and Cotto(e). I'm more of a peak and top wins kinda guy in general.



turbotime said:


> :err


Type some words FFS :lol:


----------



## the cobra

Nothing is better than Pac's. Nothing, not nobody, not nohow. :bart


----------



## Hands of Iron

LittleRed said:


> It's a really good resume. Better than Mayweather but is it better than pac?





the cobra said:


> Nothing is better than Pac's. Nothing, not nobody, not nohow. :bart


Was gonna mention you for that then thought nah, he'll see it and respond anyway. :lol:

I like Nunn and McCallum >> MAB and Cotto(e) :yep -- BUT -- nature of win looms.

Then again, those were pulled off as an underdog, by a good margin. What were the odds for Pacman? When he destroyed MAB it was really something else.


----------



## LittleRed

the cobra said:


> Nothing is better than Pac's. Nothing, not nobody, not nohow. :bart


What made you leave Texas. I thought youwera Brittan. Seen misfits?


----------



## steviebruno

Hands of Iron said:


> They're merely today's news, really. I doubt I'll be looking back in 20 years with the same type of reverence. No, not even a week from now.


Really? I'm with you on Ward, but I see Mayweather and Toney in the same category, and Floyd's longevity and consistency gives him the edge over Toney.

Great as Toney was, blowing up in weight before fighting Roy motherf'in Jones was bush league and revealed something about his character. Roiding his way out of retirement was in poor sport, also.


----------



## the cobra

Hands of Iron said:


> Was gonna mention you for that then thought nah, he'll see it and respond anyway. :lol:
> 
> I like Nunn and McCallum >> MAB and Cotto(e) :yep -- BUT -- nature of win looms.
> 
> Then again, those were pulled off as an underdog, by a good margin. What were the odds for Pacman? When he destroyed MAB it was really something else.


Pretty clear underdog for the MAB I fight. Not 20-1 though :lol:. Think he was a slight favorite against Cotto. Had to have been.

Thrashing Barrera when he was comfortably on top of the Featherweight division is quite clearly more impressive to me than Toney's comeback KO of Nunn. Nunn had oodles of talent and a damn fine career, but he's no ATG. MAB is. McCallum, even a bit on the slide, is a full class over Cotto as a fighter, but yeah, the manner in which they won and the slight size advantages involved (a Toney advantage and a Pac disadvantage) probably even things out in terms of value on those wins. An edge to Toney though if forced to choose.



> Originally posted by *LittleRed*
> What made you leave Texas. I thought youwera Brittan. Seen misfits?


I was but a wee lad. Dad was in the military, so we moved a lot anyway.

Fuckin' everyone seems to assume I'm British on these forums. :lol: It's not like I put a 'u' in words where it doesn't belong. Maybe it's because I say things like 'wee lad'...:think

The Marilyn Monroe movie that the band named themselves after?


----------



## Hands of Iron

steviebruno said:


> Really? I'm with you on Ward, but I see Mayweather and Toney in the same category, and Floyd's longevity and consistency gives him the edge over Toney.
> 
> Great as Toney was, blowing up in weight before fighting Roy motherf'in Jones was bush league and revealed something about his character. Roiding his way out of retirement was in poor sport, also.


My god Stevie, Floyd didnt factor into that at all. I was agreeing re: Ward/Rigo. I dont bother doing traditional ATG lists anymore, but Floyd is certainly ahead on about anyones and I even put him higher for best I've seen on film. Toney is a King of his own little domain, so much so that it overpowers many better all-around operators for me personally -- and his top few wins are fucking aces and damn near undetractable really -- but not Floyd.


----------



## Hands of Iron

the cobra said:


> Pretty clear underdog for the MAB I fight. Not 20-1 though :lol:. Think he was a slight favorite against Cotto. Had to have been.
> 
> Thrashing Barrera when he was comfortably on top of the Featherweight division is quite clearly more impressive to me than Toney's comeback KO of Nunn. Nunn had oodles of talent and a damn fine career, but he's no ATG. MAB is. McCallum, even a bit on the slide, is a full class over Cotto as a fighter, but yeah, the manner in which they won and the slight size advantages involved (a Toney advantage and a Pac disadvantage) probably even things out in terms of value on those wins. An edge to Toney though if forced to choose.


On film, Nunn and McCallum look outstanding. On record, they both did notable things at the weight Toney beat them at. On paper, Nunn was 36-0, the legitimate MW Champion, P4P #2 and Toney was a 20-1 underdog and was fighting in Nunn's backyard. McCallum was 42-1 with his only defeat avenged, the #1 rated MW contender and Toney set as a 5-2 underdog. Both opponents were healthy, in shape, had good training camps and gave great accounts of themselves in the actual fights.

You really nailed it the other day when you said those two, above everything else, work in solidifying him.


----------



## LittleRed

the cobra said:


> Pretty clear underdog for the MAB I fight. Not 20-1 though :lol:. Think he was a slight favorite against Cotto. Had to have been.
> 
> Thrashing Barrera when he was comfortably on top of the Featherweight division is quite clearly more impressive to me than Toney's comeback KO of Nunn. Nunn had oodles of talent and a damn fine career, but he's no ATG. MAB is. McCallum, even a bit on the slide, is a full class over Cotto as a fighter, but yeah, the manner in which they won and the slight size advantages involved (a Toney advantage and a Pac disadvantage) probably even things out in terms of value on those wins. An edge to Toney though if forced to choose.
> 
> I was but a wee lad. Dad was in the military, so we moved a lot anyway.
> 
> Fuckin' everyone seems to assume I'm British on these forums. :lol: It's not like I put a 'u' in words where it doesn't belong. Maybe it's because I say things like 'wee lad'...:think
> 
> The Marilyn Monroe movie that the band named themselves after?


I was talking about the British tv series. maybe I jumped the gun on this...


----------



## Hands of Iron

> On film, Nunn and McCallum look outstanding. On record, they both did notable things at the weight Toney beat them at. On paper, Nunn was 36-0, the legitimate MW Champion, P4P #2 and Toney was a 20-1 underdog and was fighting in Nunn's backyard. McCallum was 42-1 with his only defeat avenged, the #1 rated MW contender and Toney set as a 5-2 underdog. Both opponents were healthy, in shape, had good training camps and gave great accounts of themselves in the actual fights.
> 
> You really nailed it the other day when you said those two, above everything else, work in solidifying him.


Not to mention a pair of legendary trainers in their corners in Angelo Dundee and Eddie Futch, respectively.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Though tbh I believe the odds got a lot closer on the McCallum fight as it drew, 2-1 according to some of my newspaper articles.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Delete


----------



## the cobra

Hands of Iron said:


> On film, Nunn and McCallum look outstanding. On record, they both did notable things at the weight Toney beat them at. On paper, Nunn was 36-0, the legitimate MW Champion, P4P #2 and Toney was a 20-1 underdog and was fighting in Nunn's backyard. McCallum was 42-1 with his only defeat avenged, the #1 rated MW contender and Toney set as a 5-2 underdog. Both opponents were healthy, in shape, had good training camps and gave great accounts of themselves in the actual fights.
> 
> You really nailed it the other day when you said those two, above everything else, work in solidifying him.


Oh, they're great wins. Pac's are just better. :smile



> Originally posted by* LittleRed*
> I was talking about the British tv series. maybe I jumped the gun on this...



I'm not that British. I'm actually not at all British. Is it a comedy show? If it's a comedy show, I'll check it out. I like comedy shows, and them British types tend to make good comedy shows.

If it's not, then...I don't know, I might check it out anyway.


----------



## Hands of Iron

:lol:

Alright, cobra.


----------



## LittleRed

the cobra said:


> Oh, they're great wins. Pac's are just better. :smile
> 
> I'm not that British. I'm actually not at all British. Is it a comedy show? If it's a comedy show, I'll check it out. I like comedy shows, and them British types tend to make good comedy shows.
> 
> If it's not, then...I don't know, I might check it out anyway. [/COLOR]


It's like that old Texas saying, don't fuck a wounded bear.


----------



## steviebruno

Hands of Iron said:


> My god Stevie, Floyd didnt factor into that at all. I was agreeing re: Ward/Rigo. I dont bother doing traditional ATG lists anymore, but Floyd is certainly ahead on about anyones and I even put him higher for best I've seen on film. Toney is a King of his own little domain, so much so that it overpowers many better all-around operators for me personally -- and his top few wins are fucking aces and damn near undetractable really -- but not Floyd.


atsch I guess we agree, then. Toney and many that fought in his era would certainly wipe the floor with Ward. I was somewhat impressed with Andre last night, though.

Still, he was about as mean and angry as Jones was in the Tate fight that someone linked on the other page. The difference is that Jones got his guy out in two, whereas Ward couldn't even hurt his guy over 12.


----------



## Lester1583

Pacquiao is a poor man's Ebihara.

And Mayweather couldn't carry George Benton's jockstrap.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Pacquiao is a poor man's Ebihara.
> 
> And Mayweather couldn't carry George Benton's jockstrap.


Is Ebihara the guy that couldn't beat Accavallo?


----------



## the cobra

LittleRed said:


> It's like that old Texas saying, don't fuck a wounded bear.


Or that old British saying, "just stay away from bears in general, guvnah."

They make good comedy shows though.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Lester1583 said:


> *Pacquiao is a poor man's Ebihara*.
> 
> And Mayweather couldn't carry George Benton's jockstrap.


:eye


----------



## fists of fury

Hands of Iron said:


> He's in my top ten  (best). Toney-McCallum I = GOAT.
> 
> Hearns didn't want it. :deal


In fairness to Hearns, there was little reason to fight Mike...too much risk for almost no reward. McCallum was never a draw, and in terms of box office appeal, Hearns was well past him by the time the two could have conceivably fought.
Hearns was looking for big fights and good as Mike was, he was not a big fight.


----------



## Hands of Iron

fists of fury said:


> In fairness to Hearns, there was little reason to fight Mike...too much risk for almost no reward. McCallum was never a draw, and in terms of box office appeal, Hearns was well past him by the time the two could have conceivably fought.
> Hearns was looking for big fights and good as Mike was, he was not a big fight.


Yeah I know :lol: Mike is one of Pity's guys so it makes for a nice kickstarter.


----------



## fists of fury

I wonder how badly Mike comment on promoters - "they're all no good" - hurt him in his career.


----------



## Hands of Iron




----------



## FelixTrinidad

@Hands of Iron.
I'm not even fucking around.. my inside sources said Roy will go after Tua in a mega fight if he wins in December..

I'm DEAD serious. I'm serious dude. No joke.

Did you know Tua's comeback got the highest ratings in New Zealand for the last 6 years? Beating Rugby even...

Roy vs Tua is actually a 6 Million USD Fight.

FUCK I'M ON MY FUCKING KNEES PRAYING THIS FIGHT HAPPENS.

:ibutt


----------



## Hands of Iron

I dont think that's a great idea for him Felix. :lol:


----------



## fists of fury

God, no. Firstly, there is nothing to prove for either man. They are shot and really ought to be retired. (I say shot in Tua's case because he's 41. Admittedly I haven't seen the Ustinov fight.) 

Secondly, Tua could hurt Roy badly. I honestly can't see what's in it for Jones. He'd probably have to spend his purse on healthcare afterwards.


----------



## MadcapMaxie

Speaking of greatest fighters you've ever seen caught Whitaker v Chavez again last night. Holy Fuck did Pea look good I had it 9-3 by then end and one of those rounds was basically a gift to Chavez. Ironically I had the same result for Whitaker v Nelson but Nelson gets and extra point for the deduction. I'm thinking is Jones' performance against Toney and Hopkins on par?


----------



## FelixTrinidad

MadcapMaxie said:


> Speaking of greatest fighters you've ever seen caught Whitaker v Chavez again last night. Holy Fuck did Pea look good I had it 9-3 by then end and one of those rounds was basically a gift to Chavez. Ironically I had the same result for Whitaker v Nelson but Nelson gets and extra point for the deduction. I'm thinking is Jones' performance against Toney and Hopkins on par?


Lol I had a weird ass dream about pernell....we were on an island together and had no clothes and pernell was like to keep warm ill let you fuck me........lol......than a tiger came out and ate him alive


----------



## Hands of Iron

FelixTrinidad said:


> Lol I had a weird ass dream about pernell....we were on an island together and had no clothes and pernell was like to keep warm ill let you fuck me........lol......than a tiger came out and ate him alive


Were you perplexed or ready to do it?


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


>


Man,I can't comprehend going 12 rounds all the while anticipating what's following the opponent's jab like it's second nature as well as executing my own offence.Mike makes it sound like a piece of piss! It's far harder than he makes it sound.
I was doing some (very)light sparring a few weeks back and the trainer fought out of a shoulder roll.The whole point was to see how I did going for the body but even if I got the jab in,I was leaning too long with the follow up right.Mike just throws it so natural.
@Hands of Iron;I'd like to thank you for making it "McCallum/Toney appreciation week"


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> Man,I can't comprehend going 12 rounds all the while anticipating what's following the opponent's jab like it's second nature as well as executing my own offence.Mike makes it sound like a piece of piss! It's far harder than he makes it sound.
> I was doing some (very)light sparring a few weeks back and the trainer fought out of a shoulder roll.The whole point was to see how I did going for the body but even if I got the jab in,I was leaning too long with the follow up right.Mike just throws it so natural.
> @Hands of Iron;I'd like to thank you for making it "McCallum/Toney appreciation week"


week*S* and possibly months, we'll see. :yep Though you may appreciate the last couple posts in the Historical SRR/SRL thread even more. :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> "I went 12 rounds with Julian Jackson, I'm not concerned about him"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jones in the opposite corner :rofl That shit is probably my favorite I even went a made my own GIF a while back on ESB.


I forget but someone said in a buildup that Jones hit like a girl :lol:


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> week*S* and possibly months, we'll see. :yep Though you may appreciate the last couple posts in the Historical SRR/SRL thread even more. :lol:


I've had a look.:lol:


----------



## Ivan Drago

Bit late to this thread, Jones is a beast but some guys I've seen who I think are better(based solely on ability):

Ali, SRR, Hagler, Duran, Louis, Whitaker even Mayweather just a few off the top of my head.


----------



## turbotime

Ivan Drago said:


> Bit late to this thread, Jones is a beast but some guys I've seen who I think are better(based solely on ability):
> 
> Ali, SRR, Hagler, Duran, Louis, Whitaker even Mayweather just a few off the top of my head.


stopped at Ali.


----------



## Ivan Drago

turbotime said:


> stopped at Ali.


Did ye aye?


----------



## turbotime

Ivan Drago said:


> Did ye aye?


yay m8 wtach mo boxing aye?


----------



## Ivan Drago

Seriously you don't rate Ali or something?


----------



## Lester1583

the cobra said:


> Nothing is better than Pac's. Nothing, not nobody, not nohow. :bart


Ricardo Lopez's jab is better than Pac, his resume, his ppv numbers, his mayweather, his bible and his peds.

That's how great Ricardo Lopez is.


----------



## PityTheFool

Ivan Drago said:


> Did ye aye?


:rofl

Naw!


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> stopped at Ali.


Are you trolling or what?

Even if you think Jones is better than Ali based on the "eye test".. he is CERTAINLY still in the discussion and his resume blows Jones' resume out of the water.

Plus it's not like he didn't look great on film against better fighters than Jones fought.


----------



## the cobra

Lester1583 said:


> Ricardo Lopez's jab is better than Pac, his resume, his ppv numbers, his mayweather, his bible and his peds.
> 
> That's how great Ricardo Lopez is.


His 'stache, his calf muscles, his Scottish accent are all inferior to Pac's, and his Mayweather is an outright, unfunny joke in comparison.

*Not nobody, not nohow.* :bart


----------



## FelixTrinidad

@ EVERYONE.

I think the issue with Roy is not HIS CHIN, but his mental block and his apparent misguided beliefs that he have a BAD chin. Roy got knocked out by Johnson because he thought his chin was glass, he got knocked out by Green because he thought his chin was glass, and than he got knocked out by Lebedov because he thought his chin was glass. It all started when Tarver(who's an ATG Puncher) knocked him out. The issue is that his brain is now telling his body 'your chin is glass'.

*How to fix Roy?*

The BEST way to fix this is simple. Fight the biggest punchers that you can find and prove to YOURSELF your chin is not glass. If I were Roy's team, I would put Roy in against Wilder and tell Roy to LEAVE himself OPEN to Wilder's right hand and let Wilder hit him flush a few times. This way it proves to Roy that his chin is not glass.. than he can go on and become the P4P Fighter that he was because his chin issue will be solved.

Roy's chin is not bad at all, he just needs to fight a lot of big punchers to prove to HIMSELF it's not bad. If he gets knocked out by Wilder? That means he's mental block still exists.

So what do we do next? PUT HIM IN with ANOTHER puncher. Like Tua(who's shot) or maybe Stiverne... If he gets knocked out again?

That proves maybe he's just not a natural heavyweight.. so we make Roy go back down to 175 and force him to fight Stevenson.

The Roy Conundrum is actually quite easy to solve, we just need him to fight as many punchers as we can.

Roy STILL got his immense talent and his hand speed.. he just needs to get rid of his mental block.


----------



## Ivan Drago

FelixTrinidad said:


> @ EVERYONE.
> 
> I think the issue with Roy is not HIS CHIN, but his mental block and his apparent misguided beliefs that he have a BAD chin. Roy got knocked out by Johnson because he thought his chin was glass, he got knocked out by Green because he thought his chin was glass, and than he got knocked out by Lebedov because he thought his chin was glass. It all started when Tarver(who's an ATG Puncher) knocked him out. The issue is that his brain is now telling his body 'your chin is glass'.
> 
> *How to fix Roy?*
> 
> The BEST way to fix this is simple. Fight the biggest punchers that you can find and prove to YOURSELF your chin is not glass. If I were Roy's team, I would put Roy in against Wilder and tell Roy to LEAVE himself OPEN to Wilder's right hand and let Wilder hit him flush a few times. This way it proves to Roy that his chin is not glass.. than he can go on and become the P4P Fighter that he was because his chin issue will be solved.
> 
> Roy's chin is not bad at all, he just needs to fight a lot of big punchers to prove to HIMSELF it's not bad. If he gets knocked out by Wilder? That means he's mental block still exists.
> 
> So what do we do next? PUT HIM IN with ANOTHER puncher. Like Tua(who's shot) or maybe Stiverne... If he gets knocked out again?
> 
> That proves maybe he's just not a natural heavyweight.. so we make Roy go back down to 175 and force him to fight Stevenson.
> 
> The Roy Conundrum is actually quite easy to solve, we just need him to fight as many punchers as we can.
> 
> Roy STILL got his immense talent and his hand speed.. he just needs to get rid of his mental block.


I know you're trolling but the fact your brain even formulated this shit, well you're either a genius or a damn fool.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Roy Jones vs Bob Foster

Honestly guys you wouldn't want to bet your life on Roy Jones beating Bob Foster. 

I haven't even spoke of Spinks and Charles either.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

At boxing historian posters.

I took the time today to rewatch some Hopkins and Jones. I saw the best versions of Roy(against Vinny and Toney) @168 and I saw the best versions of Hopkins.. against Johnson and Trinidad at 160.

Once again I have to emphasize... Peak Roy and the Roy who fought Hopkins had a lot of similarities. Speed,power,shocking athleticism, combinations, and movement. Peak Roy obviously toned his craft and added ring generalship( to an extent) along with some counter punching abilities. But the difference IS NOT night and day.

The Hopkins who fought during the early 90's... had VERY little in common with Peak Hopkins. If you watch Peak Hopkins you will notice his amazing ability to adapt, control distance, defensive maneuvers around the ring WITH offensive counter attacks mixed in. You will noticed that he actually trapped Johnson and Trinidad with subtle acts of ring craft at least a half dozen times during the mid rounds... he was literally setting traps and luring them in.. He was also a LOT more physical and punched with clearly mean intentions.


Roy deserved massive credit for Hopkins win but to give him FULL Credit as if that was actually Peak Hopkins is absurd..

I STILL think that if Roy had went down to 168 in the early 2000's .. and Hopkins went up to 168.. it's a 50/50 fight.


----------



## Boxing Fanatic

i see ali sometimes in his older fights and i say to myself how can roy beat him? ali was too smart. he knew your weaknesses even before u got in the ring with him. then, i say to myself, there is no way roy would beat george foreman in congo. NEVER. foreman would have killed roy


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I forget but someone said in a buildup that Jones hit like a girl :lol:


What he did to Tate shouldn't of been possible, not with that level of seemingly relative ease. What he did to Malinga was incredible and what he did to Griffin was downright scary. Also stopped Wolfe (who had just went the distance with Toney) in 1 round and KO'ed Virgil Hill with a body shot inside four amongst others. When Jones really wanted to let it rip, he could destroy you. His KO% was actually floating around 90 for most of his prime.


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> For reasons I'm sure you'll understand,I prefer not to think of that.


Why not? :ibutt

SRL was going to take care of some easy work in Stafford in May 1982 followed by Aaron Pryor late that year (as was agreed upon before the detached retina was discovered), then imagine he finishes up his 147 reign with a win over Donald Curry before edging McCallum at 154 and still beats Hagler :lol: lol Nobody's fucking with that, man.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

Ivan Drago said:


> I know you're trolling but the fact your brain even formulated this shit, well you're either a genius or a damn fool.


What did I say that you disagree with?
Roy don't got a weak chin.. it's his weak mind.

Let me give a real life example.

Let's say you are a homosexual but is scared of doing anal.. Now obviously as a homosexual you need to do anal sex.
So what do you do? You keep doing anal sex until you are through with your mental block.
It's not that you got a WEAK DICK but that you got a mental block which prevents you from doing anal sex.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> SRL was going to take care of some easy work in Stafford in May 1982 followed by Aaron Pryor late that year (as was agreed upon before the detached retina was discovered), then imagine he finishes up his 147 reign with a win over Donald Curry before edging McCallum at 154 and still beats Hagler :lol: lol Nobody's fucking with that, man.


Pryor destroys Leonard in a brutal war.

Curry easily schools poor gun shy Ray who's confidence has been shaken and he's clearly not the same fighter anymore.

And McCallum finishes Leonard's career within 4 rounds with monstrous body shots.

Leonard spends the rest of his life calling out Hagler who retired years ago after losing to Sanderline Williams in a shocking upset.

Leonard becomes a joke.

The end.

Is this what you wanted?

I don't think so, HoI.

I don't think so.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Pryor destroys Leonard in a brutal war.
> 
> Curry easily schools poor gun shy Ray who's confidence has been shaken and he's clearly not the same fighter anymore.
> 
> And McCallum finishes Leonard's career within 4 rounds with monstrous body shots.
> 
> Leonard spends the rest of his life calling out Hagler who retired years ago after losing to Sanderline Williams in a shocking upset.
> 
> Leonard becomes a joke.
> 
> The end.
> 
> Is this what you wanted?
> 
> I don't think so, HoI.
> 
> I don't think so.


This. Almost as true as the Lopez post.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> This. *Almost* as true as the Lopez post.


I tried to be as diplomatic and gentle as possible.

I'm not sure HoI can handle the whole truth.

We all know what happened to Flea after he realized the greatness of Khaosai.

Poor fella:-(


----------



## MGS

Boxing Fanatic said:


> i see ali sometimes in his older fights and i say to myself how can roy beat him? ali was too smart. he knew your weaknesses even before u got in the ring with him.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

MGS said:


>


Can you imagine if there was a 168 Pound Ali? Multiple that handspeed in your gif now by 10x............. Man he would WHOOP Roy easy.
He'll make Roy look like Margarito speed.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> I tried to be as diplomatic and gentle as possible.
> 
> I'm not sure HoI can handle the whole truth.
> 
> We all know what happened to Flea after he realized the greatness of Khaosai.
> 
> Poor fella:-(


It's like staring into the sun while blasting beethoven into your earbuds. Too much truth can be blinding to the eyes and deafening to the ears. First time I saw Khaosai highlights I had to be spoonfed for a week.


----------



## MGS

FelixTrinidad said:


> Can you imagine if there was a 168 Pound Ali? Multiple that handspeed in your gif now by 10x............. Man he would WHOOP Roy easy.
> He'll make *Roy look like Margarito speed.*


:yep


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> Pryor destroys Leonard in a brutal war.
> 
> Curry easily schools poor gun shy Ray who's confidence has been shaken and he's clearly not the same fighter anymore.
> 
> And McCallum finishes Leonard's career within 4 rounds with monstrous body shots.
> 
> Leonard spends the rest of his life calling out Hagler who retired years ago after losing to Sanderline Williams in a shocking upset.
> 
> Leonard becomes a joke.
> 
> The end.
> 
> Is this what you wanted?
> 
> I don't think so, HoI.
> 
> I don't think so.


Yeah, I actually don't think I'd spot him to beat McCallum.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

For example, Ali to RJJ - I have Ali faster p4p. I base this on

*1) the fact he was proportionately faster at HW (compared to his peers) than RJJ was compared to HIS peers.*


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> Why not? :ibutt
> 
> SRL was going to take care of some easy work in Stafford in May 1982 followed by Aaron Pryor late that year (as was agreed upon before the detached retina was discovered), then imagine he finishes up his 147 reign with a win over Donald Curry before edging McCallum at 154 and still beats Hagler :lol: lol Nobody's fucking with that, man.


Imagine Roy is a prime welter.
Does Ray stop him or win a decision?


----------



## turbotime

FelixTrinidad said:


> Can you imagine if there was a 168 Pound Ali? Multiple that handspeed in your gif now by 10x............. Man he would WHOOP Roy easy.
> He'll make Roy look like Margarito speed.


Shrink Ali to 168 and you have Roy Jones :deal


----------



## Ivan Drago

FelixTrinidad said:


> What did I say that you disagree with?
> Roy don't got a weak chin.. it's his weak mind.
> 
> Let me give a *real life example.*
> 
> Let's say you are a homosexual but is scared of doing anal.. Now obviously as a homosexual you need to do anal sex.
> So what do you do? You keep doing anal sex until you are through with your mental block.
> It's not that you got a WEAK DICK but that you got a mental block which prevents you from doing anal sex.


I'd appreciate if you changed this bit to 'hypothetical example'.


----------



## fists of fury

Lester1583 said:


> Pryor destroys Leonard in a brutal war.
> 
> Curry easily schools poor gun shy Ray who's confidence has been shaken and he's clearly not the same fighter anymore.
> 
> And McCallum finishes Leonard's career within 4 rounds with monstrous body shots.
> 
> Leonard spends the rest of his life calling out Hagler who retired years ago after losing to Sanderline Williams in a shocking upset.
> 
> Leonard becomes a joke.


You forgot the part where he comes out of retirement and edges now-HOF bound Sanderline Williams on a controversial SD, thus indirectly still beating Marv, who cries into his chicken soup for 10 years straight. In the end Leonard always wins. :hey


----------



## MadcapMaxie

Lester1583 said:


> Pryor destroys Leonard in a brutal war.
> 
> Curry easily schools poor gun shy Ray who's confidence has been shaken and he's clearly not the same fighter anymore.
> 
> And McCallum finishes Leonard's career within 4 rounds with monstrous body shots.
> 
> Leonard spends the rest of his life calling out Hagler who retired years ago after losing to Sanderline Williams in a shocking upset.
> 
> Leonard becomes a joke.
> 
> The end.
> 
> Is this what you wanted?
> 
> I don't think so, HoI.
> 
> I don't think so.


I can dig it baby.

In all honesty I've always picked Pryor to beat Leonard. Pryor would simply outhustle him and I don't think Leonard has enough bang to KO him. He would certainly beat Curry and PROBABLY McCallum. The styles matchup is interesting.


----------



## Pedderrs

Picking Aaron Pryor to beat Ray Leonard at 147lbs is like picking Antonio Esparragoza to beat Alexis Arguello at 130lbs.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Pedderrs said:


> Picking Aaron Pryor to beat Ray Leonard at 147lbs is like picking Antonio Esparragoza to beat Alexis Arguello at 130lbs.


:deal


----------



## bald_head_slick

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf


Don't forget C- fundamentals. :yep


----------



## Pedderrs

Pryor didn't look comfortable enough at 140lbs for me to believe he could have jumped up to Welterweight and defeated the likes of Ray Leonard. Pryor was put on his arse by smaller, slower, less talented fighters who didn't hit as hard.

If you're going life and death with Alexis Arguello in '82 then you should probably stay well clear of Ray.


----------



## turbotime

bald_head_slick said:


> Don't forget C- fundamentals. :yep


:kwonwut


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Pryor didn't look comfortable enough at 140lbs for me to believe he could have jumped up to Welterweight and defeated the likes of Ray Leonard. Pryor was put on his arse by smaller, slower, less talented fighters who didn't hit as hard.
> 
> If you're going life and death with Alexis Arguello in '82 then you should probably stay well clear of Ray.


I'm pretty sure Lester wasn't being serious even though he is a big Pryor fan. He's been taking the piss in various threads he considers to be a Joke, it looks like.


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm pretty sure Lester wasn't being serious even though he is a big Pryor fan. He's been taking the piss in various threads he considers to be a Joke, it looks like.


Whereas Maxie seemed deadly serious.


----------



## turbotime

No way Pryor beats Leonard, btw.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Whereas Maxie seemed deadly serious.


Maxie doesn't like Ray Leonard, and that's a grave understatement. Pretty cool as far as anything else.

I really need to dig up my articles of Pryor agreeing to a $700,000 purse to fight Leonard in 1982 after he gor through Stafford. This whole Leonard ducked Pryor cause Legendary Nights told me so shit is just nauseating.


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> Maxie doesn't like Ray Leonard, and that's a grave understatement. Pretty cool as far as anything else.
> 
> I really need to dig up my articles of Pryor agreeing to a $700,000 purse to fight Leonard in 1982 after he gor through Stafford. This whole Leonard ducked Pryor cause Legendary Nights told me so shit is just nauseating.


I've been watching an awful lot of Arguello recently. An awful lot.

He's one of my favourite fighters. I think he's an absolute monster in an offensive sense. Textbook technique, amazing composite puncher, punishing body attack, and he had a good jab when he used it. But I can't help but think there's quite a lot of fighters throughout history who operated between 126-135lbs that beat him. Like, if you put a mover in front of him, not even a particularly great one, then he's going to have problems. Vilomar Fernandez moved and he won a 10 round decision. Ruben Castillo, Bobby Chacon, and James Busceme all moved. They were all doing very well until the stoppages came. I suppose that's the thing though, isn't it? We can criticise the way Arguello handled movers, but the vast majority of them were stopped in the end. Still, not really a H2H monster. Not for me.


----------



## fists of fury

Slicksters generally gave Arguello problems because of the way he set his feet, but what a beautiful offensive machine he was. Against the right styles, he could be utterly devastating. I would have loved to have seen him and Chavez doing battle at 130 or 135.


----------



## Pedderrs

fists of fury said:


> Slicksters generally gave Arguello problems because of the way he set his feet, but what a beautiful offensive machine he was. Against the right styles, he could be utterly devastating.


Arguello seemed to rarely punch with his opponent. Like, Duran or Chavez, for example, seemed happy to fight fire with fire and didn't necessarily have to get set before getting off. Arguello, in contrast, seemed to wait until his opponent wasn't throwing before he put a combination together. I think he may have been guilty of being a little too patient at times. Waiting for things to be a little bit too perfect. Sometimes it would result in him getting outworked and losing rounds due to inactivity.

There was talk of Arguello fighting Duran at 135lbs in the late 70s. I think it was good for Arguello that it never happened.


----------



## fists of fury

Yeah I agree on him being maybe a little too patient or methodical at times. In that sense he reminds me of Joe Louis a little bit. But like Louis, he was an incredible textbook puncher as a result. I tend to agree on Duran; I don't think he'd provide Alexis with the kinds of opportunities he'd need to get off consistently, and that for me is the big difference here.


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

Hands of Iron said:


> Maxie doesn't like Ray Leonard, and that's a grave understatement. Pretty cool as far as anything else.
> 
> I really need to dig up my articles of Pryor agreeing to a $700,000 purse to fight Leonard in 1982 after he gor through Stafford. This whole Leonard ducked Pryor cause Legendary Nights told me so shit is just nauseating.


Better yet, dig up the article where Pryor's own manager confirms that he rejected $500,000 and then $750,000 and demanded two million dollars instead back in 1980.

Little Aaron knew that 750 grand wasn't worth a career-ending pasting.


----------



## Hands of Iron

^^ You have one of the coolest screen names I've seen. :lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> I really need to dig up my articles of Pryor agreeing to a $700,000 purse to fight Leonard in 1982 after he gor through Stafford. This whole Leonard ducked Pryor cause Legendary Nights told me so shit is just nauseating.





> Although I'd made up my mind that I'd retire after the Stafford fight, we had already signed to fight Aaron Pryor, and I wanted to go ahead with that because I just had to close his big mouth. He had been saying a lot of bad things about me, and I wanted him in the ring. I mean, I wanted him bad. Pryor was telling people that I owed him. Owed him for what? He said we'd been friends once, that I should have helped him. I asked him, "Aaron, who helped me?" He said we had been friends. That's the reason friends don't work for me-they're always expecting you to do them favors. It's difficult to have family and friends working for you.
> 
> I listened to Pryor's mouth and I was dying to put a fist into it. Even so, while training for Stafford, I told Trainer, who was negotiating for fights overseas as well as ones with Pryor and Alexis Arguello, that after Stafford I needed some time to think. Now, Mike had worked hard to line up those fights. He was always thinking a year ahead of everybody else. But I told him to cancel everything. I think I shocked him, but he said, "If that's what you want, that's what you get.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126106/2/index.htm


----------



## bald_head_slick

turbotime said:


> :kwonwut


I love RJJ, but you have to admit that. Watching Roy now is like watching a super hero that lost his powers.

Toney at his absolute worst is still damned good.


----------



## turbotime

bald_head_slick said:


> I love RJJ, but you have to admit that. Watching Roy now is like watching a super hero that lost his powers.
> 
> Toney at his absolute worst is still damned good.


Did you see Prizefighter!?


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> No way Pryor beats Leonard, btw.


agreed, Pryor would try to swarm Leonard and Leonard would box circles around him, counter him, maybe even stop him late


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pryor probably gets stopped even sooner than that. Wide Open Spaces... Leonard would put the lead to his head and we'd of never heard of this absolute nonsense.


----------



## bald_head_slick

turbotime said:


> Did you see Prizefighter!?


Sweet Jesus! Why on Earth would I even want to? :lol:

Man I didn't know he did that. :-rofl


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> agreed, Pryor would try to swarm Leonard and Leonard would box circles around him, counter him, maybe even stop him late





Hands of Iron said:


> Pryor probably gets stopped even sooner than that. Wide Open Spaces... Leonard would put the lead to his head and we'd of never heard of this absolute nonsense.


Fucking Pryor :twisted


bald_head_slick said:


> Sweet Jesus! Why on Earth would I even want to? :lol:
> 
> Man I didn't know he did that. :-rofl


Yeah, don't watch. It goes on his record too apparently.


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Pryor probably gets stopped even sooner than that. Wide Open Spaces... Leonard would put the lead to his head and we'd of never heard of this absolute nonsense.


True, I was being generous to pryor's heart & chin

his defense ultimately lets him down


----------



## Hands of Iron

What's up with the Freddie Roach thread over 1,000 replies? Fucking stupid. Most posters here are shit.

Cept the ones that actually talk boxing with me. :yep


----------



## turbotime

Did you see the Toney fight hands? Watch the first one of James :deal


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Did you see the Toney fight hands? Watch the first one of James :deal


Havent seen a Toney fight in years, man. He's desecrated himself to the point where he basically has no legacy in this sport, he'll have no money when he's forced into retirement, no fruits of his labor to enjoy and all of the physical damage that comes from it and it's a tragedy. Lets not pretend anybody was ever talking about James Toney on here until I took the initiative :lol: Nobody was. Other than maybe he got dominated by Jones?


----------



## Brnxhands

Other than me. I been callin people out about where they rank james since the esb days. Everybody called me a troll


Hands of Iron said:


> Havent seen a Toney fight in years, man. He's desecrated himself to the point where he basically has no legacy in this sport, he'll have no money when he's forced into retirement, no fruits of his labor to enjoy and all of the physical damage that comes from it and it's a tragedy. Lets not pretend anybody was ever talking about James Toney on here until I took the initiative :lol: Nobody was. Other than maybe he got dominated by Jones?


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Nobody was. Other than maybe he got dominated by Jones?


Yeah I think when we were bantering back and forth about Jones and you'd watched Toney/Nunn I believe...then I told you to watch the Johnson fight back and it was game over for you :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

Brnxhands said:


> Other than me. I been callin people out about where they rank james since the esb days. Everybody called me a troll


Yup other than you my dude, which is why I was giving you countless mentions :lol:

They called you a troll, exactly. Because people see him as a joke. Toney is the reason I made the 10 Best Fighters thread and ultimately why I have flipped "ATG rankings" by the wayside, forever.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Yeah I think when we were bantering back and forth about Jones and you'd watched Toney/Nunn I believe...then I told you to watch the Johnson fight back and it was game over for you :lol:


Yeah, something fuckin clicked along the line. I hadnt seen a Toney fight since 2010 or some shit before my sets got stolen.


----------



## Hands of Iron

There really isnt a need for sets these days. The amount of quality stuff I've seen uploaded just over the last couple years is crazy. In great quality a lot of time too.


----------



## FelixTrinidad

This thread isn't as fun as that other thread.


----------



## bald_head_slick

turbotime said:


> Yeah, don't watch. It goes on his record too apparently.


Man that is horrible. Not because the show is bad, but because of the previous heights of his career and talent. Sad.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> agreed, Pryor would try to swarm Leonard and Leonard would box circles around him, counter him, maybe even stop him late





Hands of Iron said:


> Pryor probably gets stopped even sooner than that. Wide Open Spaces... Leonard would put the lead to his head and we'd of never heard of this absolute nonsense.


You using Torrents? I've been getting a lot of basilio lately. I can't find the first fight though :twisted


Hands of Iron said:


> There really isnt a need for sets these days. The amount of quality stuff I've seen uploaded just over the last couple years is crazy. In great quality a lot of time too.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> You sing Torrents? I've been getting a lot of basilio lately. I can't find the first fight though :twisted


Basilio vs who? Rather, first fight against who?

You think basilio could beat DLH or nah?


----------



## turbotime

Robinson!



tommygun711 said:


> Basilio vs who?


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Robinson!


I'm guessing you mean the full fight & not highlights?


----------



## turbotime

Yeah the full thing. Basilio was such a little G



tommygun711 said:


> I'm guessing you mean the full fight & not highlights?


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> You using Torrents? I've been getting a lot of basilio lately. I can't find the first fight though :twisted


No luck on that


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> agreed, Pryor would try to swarm Leonard and Leonard would box circles around him, counter him, maybe even stop him late





Hands of Iron said:


> Pryor probably gets stopped even sooner than that. Wide Open Spaces... Leonard would put the lead to his head and we'd of never heard of this absolute nonsense.


That's so weird to me. It was a FOTY !!


Hands of Iron said:


> No luck on that


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Pryor probably gets stopped even sooner than that. Wide Open Spaces... Leonard would put the lead to his head and we'd of never heard of this absolute nonsense.


At welter I got Oskee but Basilio roughs him up at 154 IMO and takes it


----------



## Pedderrs

James Toney was a good fighter. ...But, yeah, let's forget about him now.


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> James Toney was a good fighter. ...But, yeah, let's forget about him now.


:lol:

Toney or Barrera ?


----------



## Pedderrs

turbotime said:


> :lol:
> 
> Toney or Barrera ?


They are both probably in the same bracket in terms of greatness.

There is something wholely unsatisfying about James Toney and his career though. The failed drug test after winning the Heavyweight title from John Ruiz. The ridiculously one-sided loss to Roy Jones Jr. The losses to Montell Griffin, and some other pretty sub-par performances against fighters who weren't supposed to be on his level. Even the wins against Nunn and McCallum feel a little unsatisfying. I'm not sure he ever looked like the better fighter against Mike McCallum, two fights that were very, very close affairs. Michael Nunn was stopped, granted, but he was behind on the cards when he landed a big punch and capitalised. You feel like he could have easily lost that one.

Barrera, in his two biggest wins, won fairly clearly against Erik Morales in their rubber match in 2004. What made that win even more satisfying was the fact it was off the back of a hideous loss to Manny Pacquiao and not many people were favouring him against a 130lbs Erik Morales. Marco had so much to lose that night. If he lost 2-1 to Morales in the series then he's clearly seen as being inferior to his nearest rival and he never would have been crowned as a champion at Super Featherweight. That fight, perhaps more than any other, really established him as being extra-ordinary. A special fighter. Naseem Hamed, who was also favoured and who had never tasted a loss as a professional, was thoroughly spanked and humiliated. Revisionist history will tell you Hamed was all style and no substance, but that's not how the Boxing world viewed him at the time.

So yeah, I would put them in the bracket in terms of greatness, but I like MAB's career more. It feels more satisfying and consistent.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Toney had a very short prime, I'd say 1991-94. His CV is actually pretty thin, though the top wins are very, very good and his overall level of opposition is something to commend.

Really the only relevant bouts at 160-168. I adjusted the McCallum fights to how I saw them.

05/91: Michael Nunn (36-0) W-TKO11 [160]
06/91: Reggie Johnson (29-1) W-SD12 [160]
12/91: Mike McCallum (42-1) W-PTS12 [160]
08/92: Mike McCallum (43-2) L-PTS12 [160]
02/93: Iran Barkley (30-7) W-RTD9 [168]
10/93: Tony Thornton (35-5) W-UD12 [168]
03/94: Tim Littles (24-0) W-TKO4 [168]
07/94: Charles Williams (36-5) W-KO12 [168]
11/94: Roy Jones Jr (26-0) L-UD12 [168]

That's it. Those were the rated guys.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Then take someone like McCallum...

11/82: Ayub Kalule (40-2) W-RTD7 [154]
07/85: David Braxton (35-1) W-TKO8 [154]
08/86: Julian Jackson (29-0) W-TKO2 [154]
04/87: Milton McCrory (31-1) W-TKO7 [154]
07/87: Donald Curry (27-1) W-KO5 [154]
03/88: Sumbu Kalambay (43-3) L-UD12 [160]
05/89: Herol Graham (41-1) W-SD12 [160]
02/90: Steve Collins (16-0) W-UD12 [160]
04/90: Michael Watson (22-1) W-KO11 [160]
04/91: Sumbu Kalambay (51-4) W-SD12 [160]
12/91: James Toney (28-0) L-PTS12 [160]
08/92: James Toney (32-0) W-PTS12 [160]
07/94: Jeff Harding (23-1) W-UD12 [175]

Deep.


----------



## Hands of Iron

It really isnt any wonder why McCallum was the #1 rated MW when he fought Toney, and was even favored.


----------



## turbotime

Holy Fack that's ridiculous. I fully agree Barrera and Toney are around the same. That win at Cruiserweight for Toney helped mega though. I think Toney was the underdog in that as well.


----------



## fists of fury

You have to give Toney props though, for not only winning the title against the best middleweight, but immediately fighting some of the division's best fighters right after, and then going after a still-dangerous Barkley who had resurrected his career.


----------



## Hands of Iron

fists of fury said:


> You have to give Toney props though, for not only winning the title against the best middleweight, but immediately fighting some of the division's best fighters right after, and then going after a still-dangerous Barkley who had resurrected his career.


It's short, but very sweet.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Holy Fack that's ridiculous. I fully agree Barrera and Toney are around the same. That win at Cruiserweight for Toney helped mega though. I think Toney was the underdog in that as well.


Yeah..

Nunn (Amazing comeback KO, 20-1 underdog)
McCallum I (One of the most skilled fights ever, 2-1 underdog)
Jirov (Amazing win as heavy underdog, satisfying finish)
Johnson (Amazing fight)
Barkley (Virtuoso Performance)
Littles (Amazing Finish)
Williams (Ditto the above)

And well, Toney's an incredibly memorable fighter really. :lol:


----------



## dyna

Anybody know the answer to my question?

Is it true that Toney landed more punches on Barkley than there are atoms in our universe?


----------



## the cobra

Can I post links to the other site? Or will I get banished into outer-internet space?

Because I made a thread about that Toney or Barrera question. It had, like, _ten_ replies. Yeah. That's fucking right I made a thread.


----------



## turbotime

No.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> No.












The Jackie Years were the height of Toney's career in boxing. It all went to shit after that.


----------



## the cobra

Well here's @*Boxed Ears*' reply:

"These two are, at their best, two of my top ten favorites to watch. Very eye-pleasing styles, to me. Toney might be the better man, best for absolute best, and at that I'm not so sure at all. That said, Barrera career edges it, for me, largely because of Toney's weight problems and worst nights. Frankly, it's funny how much the negativity of MAB's losses seems to have depreciated. From the first after Jones to the last. It seems like every fighter has had their status elevated. Barrera's career as a whole looks much better to me. Toney's difficulty to show up against guys he damned well should have beaten has hurt him in comparisons like this, whereas when he shows up with a genuine spirit and the preparation to support it, we've seen him prove he's a legit great, imo. But part of greatness is bringing what you can to the table and getting the best out of it and Barrera stomps James on that account."

That's a nice overview of the matter.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> That's so weird to me. It was a FOTY !!


can you stop quoting me bro


----------



## LittleRed

tommygun711 said:


> can you stop quoting me bro


Can I quote you?


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> The Jackie Years were the height of Toney's career in boxing. It all went to shit after that.


Very G



the cobra said:


> Well here's @*Boxed Ears*' reply:
> 
> "These two are, at their best, two of my top ten favorites to watch. Very eye-pleasing styles, to me. Toney might be the better man, best for absolute best, and at that I'm not so sure at all. That said, Barrera career edges it, for me, largely because of Toney's weight problems and worst nights. Frankly, it's funny how much the negativity of MAB's losses seems to have depreciated. From the first after Jones to the last. It seems like every fighter has had their status elevated. Barrera's career as a whole looks much better to me. Toney's difficulty to show up against guys he damned well should have beaten has hurt him in comparisons like this, whereas when he shows up with a genuine spirit and the preparation to support it, we've seen him prove he's a legit great, imo. But part of greatness is bringing what you can to the table and getting the best out of it and Barrera stomps James on that account."
> 
> That's a nice overview of the matter.


I was kidding Cobes, but stilla very good summation :deal


----------



## tommygun711

LittleRed said:


> Can I quote you?


he kept quoting the same quote over and over again


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Very G
> 
> I was kidding Cobes, but stilla very good summation :deal


You gonna buy that damn book? I'm so jealous of this fucking guy and what he got to be there for. Really crazy timing on some of it


----------



## Brnxhands

james never belonged in this era to begin with. he should have been fighting back in the eras with charlez, lamotta, robinson an those types. He had the mentality to fit right in back then. a real throwback unlike all the frauds claiming to be throwback fighters


----------



## the cobra

turbotime said:


> Very G
> 
> I was kidding Cobes, but stilla very good summation :deal


Yeah, BE summizes or summat quite well sometimes.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Brnxhands said:


> james never belonged in this era to begin with. he should have been fighting back in the eras with charlez, lamotta, robinson an those types. He had the mentality to fit right in back then. a real throwback unlike all the frauds claiming to be throwback fighters


He probably would've never gotten a title shot. I'm happy with the era he ended up being part of though -- still incredibly talented and with plenty of quality film -- Jones cut the party short on him though; he was on the brink of getting a $30,000,000 million deal from Time Warner before that humiliation. Gone in a flash. Gets jobbed in his very next fight with Griffin three months later and the lights were out on his prime.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You gonna buy that damn book? I'm so jealous of this fucking guy and what he got to be there for. Really crazy timing on some of it


Yes. But I'd buy yours on Toney too :deal


----------



## FelixTrinidad

@Hands of Iron.

Few questions.. Say James Toney stayed in the shape he was in against Jirov..........
how do you see him doing back in 2003............. against PRE-Steward Wladimir and fading Lennox?

Say Lewis of the Vitali fight vs Toney of the Jirov fight(who was a HW essentially)
and say Wladimir of the Mccline fight... vs the same Toney..

Remember Wladimir hasn't been fully exposed yet and was extremely aggressive leaving himself wide open every other exchange it seem... and Lewis was clearly declined and getting bored.

Or are they just too fucking big for Toney REGARDLESS of what stage they were in.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Yes. But I'd buy yours on Toney too :deal


Don't need one anymore really. The guy was with him, Jackie, his fuckin mama in hotels, dressing rooms, after parties the whole damn lot
Has some intimate conversations with Roy in Pensacola too, just crazy. As it was happening... lol catching Roy inside the MGM after a three mile jog the morning after the Toney fight and shooting shit. :blood

Nothing in hindsight tops that kind of perspective brah. Nothing.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Hands of Iron said:


> Toney had a very short prime, I'd say 1991-94. His CV is actually pretty thin, though the top wins are very, very good and his overall level of opposition is something to commend.
> 
> Really the only relevant bouts at 160-168. I adjusted the McCallum fights to how I saw them.
> 
> 05/91: Michael Nunn (36-0) W-TKO11 [160]
> 06/91: Reggie Johnson (29-1) W-SD12 [160]
> 12/91: Mike McCallum (42-1) W-PTS12 [160]
> 08/92: Mike McCallum (43-2) L-PTS12 [160]
> 02/93: Iran Barkley (30-7) W-RTD9 [168]
> 10/93: Tony Thornton (35-5) W-UD12 [168]
> 03/94: Tim Littles (24-0) W-TKO4 [168]
> 07/94: Charles Williams (36-5) W-KO12 [168]
> 11/94: Roy Jones Jr (26-0) L-UD12 [168]
> 
> That's it. Those were the rated guys.


Weren't Sosa or Dewitt rated some time or another?


----------



## Hands of Iron

FelixTrinidad said:


> @Hands of Iron.
> 
> Few questions.. Say James Toney stayed in the shape he was in against Jirov..........
> how do you see him doing back in 2003............. against PRE-Steward Wladimir and fading Lennox?
> 
> Say Lewis of the Vitali fight vs Toney of the Jirov fight(who was a HW essentially)
> and say Wladimir of the Mccline fight... vs the same Toney..
> 
> Remember Wladimir hasn't been fully exposed yet and was extremely aggressive leaving himself wide open every other exchange it seem... and Lewis was clearly declined and getting bored.
> 
> Or are they just too fucking big for Toney REGARDLESS of what stage they were in.


Toney loses all fantasy fights, against even the most mediocre of come forward brawlers much smaller than him.



Powerpuncher said:


> Weren't Sosa or Dewitt rated some time or another?


Probably a safe bet.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Toney loses all fantasy fights, against even the most mediocre of come forward brawlers much smaller than him.


:lol: Felix loves putting our fave middles in with heavyweights


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :lol: Felix loves putting our fave middles in with heavyweights


Lol Toney still doesn't get stopped.

He's undress Zaire George Foreman Iran Barkley-style.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Lol Toney still doesn't get stopped.


The Lebedev fight was another testament to Toney's toughness - old, fat, shot, injured versus the hard-punching cruserweight in his prime - still went the full distance.


----------



## tommygun711

@Hands of Iron Toney vs Qawi @ LHW who takes it?


----------



## Tyler-Durden

Roy was spectactical to say the least.


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> @Hands of Iron Toney vs Qawi @ LHW who takes it?


Holy Christ. :ibutt

Light Heavyweight or Cruiser? I dont really rate James at either too much tbh even though he'd probably be a little more than formidable against many. I'm not really a fan of fluffy Toney like some of these other guys. What battles on the inside though, activity and volume vs clean counterpunching.

EDIT: Completely breezed over you specifying LHW in the original question. :lol: Probably Qawi decision.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Holy Christ. :ibutt
> 
> Light Heavyweight or Cruiser? I dont really rate James at either too much tbh even though he'd probably be a little more than formidable against many. I'm not really a fan of fluffy Toney like some of these other guys. What battles on the inside though, activity and volume vs clean counterpunching.
> 
> EDIT: Completely breezed over you specifying LHW in the original question. :lol: Probably Qawi decision.


That would've been a street fight. Come to think of it the only more brutal fight I can think of between greats is Armstrong/Chavez SR at 130 :err


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> That would've been a street fight. Come to think of it the only more brutal fight I can think of between greats is Armstrong/Chavez SR at 130 :err


Dun get me wrong, I see Toney have some spectacularly clean and hard shots exploding on his face and head but he isn't gonna do enough. Toney was a lazy ass. I am adamant the best we saw of him was at 160-168. He really didnt fight anyone for like five or six years really. The loss to Jones fucked his head up, then he split with Kallen, fired long time trainer Bill Miller, hired Mustafa Muhammad, weight going out of control, then hired Roach.. jajaja mess, dude.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Dun get me wrong, I see Toney have some spectacularly clean and hard shots exploding on his face and head but he isn't gonna do enough. Toneat y was a lazy ass. I am adamant the best we saw of him was at 160-168. He really didnt fight anyone for like five or six years really. The loss to Jones fucked his head up, then he split with Kallen, fired long time trainer Bill Miller, hired Mustafa Muhammad, weight going out of control, then hired Roach.. jajaja mess, dude.


Oh yeah no problem, but Toney's natural instinct, it would've been very brutal. Pacquiao/Pryor maybe.

Armstrong vs SR?


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Oh yeah no problem, but Toney's natural instinct, it would've been very brutal. Pacquiao/Pryor maybe.
> 
> Armstrong vs SR?


Now that would be some shit. :lol:


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Holy Christ. :ibutt
> 
> Light Heavyweight or Cruiser? I dont really rate James at either too much tbh even though he'd probably be a little more than formidable against many. I'm not really a fan of fluffy Toney like some of these other guys. What battles on the inside though, activity and volume vs clean counterpunching.
> 
> EDIT: Completely breezed over you specifying LHW in the original question. :lol: Probably Qawi decision.


Qawi was quite a sharp counter puncher in his own right as well, I loved his demolition of Saad Muhammad the first time (perfect performance - on all levels. One of my favorites) and the way he clowned Spinks was classy too even though that fight was at cruiserweight.

I can kind of see Toney being lazy, having those nice eye catching counters in spots & then getting outworked. It would kind of look like the Jirov fight except Qawi would be able to take Toney's shots better than Jirov did.


----------



## Hands of Iron

It really wouldn't feel right to me predicting a Toney win there, Tommy. Qawi was an amazing LHW and a H2H animal where as I'm sort of down on Toney beyond 168.


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> It really wouldn't feel right to me predicting a Toney win there, Tommy. Qawi was an amazing LHW and a H2H animal where as I'm sort of down on Toney beyond 168.


Not sure Toney would win at CW either. He would have a better chance there though seeing as Qawi wasn't quite the same buzzsaw at CW compared to LHW .I see Qawi being alot more explosive & sharp at LHW and his hands being considerably faster. He was also a lot better at cutting the ring off and was more defensively sound.. Qawi wins at LHW but CW is a pickem because of both of their inconsistencies at the weight... I don't want to think about a HW fight between the two :lol:


----------



## PityTheFool

turbotime said:


> That would've been a street fight. Come to think of it the only more brutal fight I can think of between greats is Armstrong/Chavez SR at 130 :err


I keep meaning to watch Holyfield-Qawi again.This might be the push I needed.


----------



## turbotime

PityTheFool said:


> I keep meaning to watch Holyfield-Qawi again.This might be the push I needed.


Maybe in between Bro-ch/Groves and Pac/rios?


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> I keep meaning to watch Holyfield-Qawi again.This might be the push I needed.





turbotime said:


> Maybe in between Bro-ch/Groves and Pac/rios?


----------



## PityTheFool

turbotime said:


> Maybe in between Bro-ch/Groves and Pac/rios?


If Frochy does a job on the ginger fuckpig I might get it in before the PPV broadcast ends!

But I've got my four year old and she has rehearsals at 10am.I'll have to watch Pac-Rios after I drop her off.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


>





PityTheFool said:


> I keep meaning to watch Holyfield-Qawi again.This might be the push I needed.





turbotime said:


> Maybe in between Bro-ch/Groves and Pac/rios?


----------



## the cobra

PityTheFool said:


> the ginger fuckpig


:lol:


----------



## PityTheFool

turbotime said:


>


The last minute of this was how I felt when you turned on me turbo.I tried to find a clip of the "I miss you" montage to show how I felt after but couldn't find it.


----------



## PityTheFool

turbotime said:


>


The last minute of this was how I felt when you turned on me turbo.I tried to find a clip of the "I miss you" montage to show how I felt after but couldn't find it.


----------



## Hands of Iron

@turbotime It irritates me how many times Toney would fight and beat a guy only for Jones to come along and take them on a little bit later and look much more dominant doing it.

McCallum and Johnson though?? :nono :cmon


----------



## turbotime

:lol:





























































Johnson was green when Toney barely scraped by him. 



:shifty


----------



## Hands of Iron

Glenn Wolfe and Tony Thornton both went the distance, they couldn't last six rounds combined with Jones. Couple of contested battles with Griffin, Jones KO1.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Glenn Wolfe and Tony Thornton both went the distance, they couldn't last six rounds combined with Jones. Couple of contested battles with Griffin, Jones KO1.


I rewatched that Tate fight about 25 times after you brought it up about Jackson :lol:

And the Nunn/Toney fight. I hate how they act like he was losing every round before the KO. Had Nunn gotten up even, and Toney dropped him again in the 12th, Toney should've had a chance on the cards IMO


----------



## Hands of Iron

Thornton was still a fucking rated contender @ 168lbs though when Toney fought him. A cagey veteran contender.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I rewatched that Tate fight about 25 times after you brought it up about Jackson :lol:
> 
> And the Nunn/Toney fight. I hate how they act like he was losing every round before the KO. Had Nunn gotten up even, and Toney dropped him again in the 12th, Toney should've had a chance on the cards IMO


Toney took 8-10 easily, probably 7 as well. Nunn was putting it on the first half though.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I rewatched that Tate fight about 25 times after you brought it up about Jackson :lol:
> 
> And the Nunn/Toney fight. I hate how they act like he was losing every round before the KO. Had Nunn gotten up even, and Toney dropped him again in the 12th, Toney should've had a chance on the cards IMO


I love the Jones/Tate fight. :yep


----------



## Hands of Iron

Tony Thornton is dead by the way.



:-(


----------



## SouthPaw

turbotime said:


> I rewatched that Tate fight about 25 times after you brought it up about Jackson :lol:
> 
> And the Nunn/Toney fight. I hate how they act like he was losing every round before the KO. Had Nunn gotten up even, and Toney dropped him again in the 12th, Toney should've had a chance on the cards IMO


I just rewatched that fight and had it 6-4 Toney before the KO. He was landing the better shots and defending Nunn's shots well. That was a close fight where Toney was clearly in control down the stretch.


----------



## Hands of Iron




----------



## FelixTrinidad

Hands of Iron said:


>


Toney is a beast.............Actually watching Toney-Jirov .. I'm no longer that sure in regards to HW'S beating up Toney.

The Toney of the Jirov fight was in surreal shape. How the fuck did he get so fat? I'm serious.. I don't get it..






Guy's rocking that fucking facial hair too. Amazing. And realistically Toney of the Jirov fight was pretty much a Heavyweight.

I honestly believe that if you put this version of Toney in against PRE-MANNY Wladimir.... who knows?


----------



## turbotime




----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


>


Toney's resume isn't weak, it's just not particularly deep but who cares??


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Toney's resume isn't weak, it's just not particularly deep but who cares??


No one should.


----------



## turbotime




----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> No one should.


I'm surprised you arent more flabberghasted by all this Toney stuff -- maybe it just finally makes sense why I gave Roy such a hard time for so long. :lol:

In any case, this is a Jones opponent so it's important he actually did something.

Michael Nunn (36-0) [20-1 underdog] @ 160
Mike McCallum (42-1) [5-2 underdog] @ 160
Vassiliy Jirov (31-0) [8-5 underdog] @ CW
Reggie Johnson (29-1) [slight favorite] @160
Iran Barkley (30-7) [perfection] @ 168
Evander Holyfield (38-6) [3-1 underdog] @ HW
Tim Littles (24-0) @ 168
Charles Williams (36-5) @ 168
Tony Thornton (35-5) @ 168
John Ruiz (41-5) @ HW

Also beat Griffin at 175 and arguably Peter at HW but Im not gonna get into it.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm surprised you arent more flabberghasted by all this Toney stuff -- maybe it just finally makes sense why I gave Roy such a hard time for so long. :lol:
> 
> In any case, this is a Jones opponent so it's important he actually did something.
> 
> Michael Nunn (36-0) [20-1 underdog] @ 160
> Mike McCallum (42-1) [5-2 underdog] @ 160
> Vassiliy Jirov (31-0) [8-5 underdog] @ CW
> Reggie Johnson (29-1) [slight favorite] @160
> Iran Barkley (30-7) [perfection] @ 168
> Evander Holyfield (38-6) [3-1 underdog] @ HW
> Tim Littles (24-0) @ 168
> Charles Williams (36-5) @ 168
> Tony Thornton (35-5) @ 168
> John Ruiz (41-5) @ HW
> 
> Also beat Griffin at 175 and arguably Peter at HW but Im not gonna get into it.


You WILL NEVER find me underestimating TONEY. Look at that fucking Johnson win. who knows Johnson besides me and @littered??


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> You WILL NEVER find me underestimating TONEY. Look at that fucking Johnson win. who knows Johnson besides me and @littered??


His top three wins at @ 160 are bananas great. I actually feel he was more complete at 168, but his couple years there are highlighted by the surreal domination in taking Barkley's strap and a few fights against contenders.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> His top three wins at @ 160 are bananas great. I actually feel he was more complete at 168, but his couple years there are highlighted by the surreal domination in taking Barkley's strap and a few fights against contenders.


versus who??


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> versus who??







February 1993






October 1993






March 1994






July 1994


----------



## Hands of Iron




----------



## Hands of Iron

Those counter right hands, uppercuts on the inside and swift hooks to the body are so fucking sweet. :yep

Toney does a few things *exceptionally* well and they include looking badass and having an awesome style, fighting in the pocket, counterpunching and upperbody defensive movement (including the shoulder roll). Can you not see the appeal @turbotime ?? The Barkley fight in particular, Jesus o Jesus :jjj


----------



## Hands of Iron

Where the hell is @Thawk888 or @MichiganWarrior

They'd appreciate the brilliance posted on this page. Toney wasn't just in there to look cute, he was dealing out punishment.


----------



## the cobra

*Old School. *:deal


----------



## Thawk888

turbotime said:


> No one should.


Tell that to all those Euro-nuthuggers....


----------



## Thawk888

Hands of Iron said:


>


The subtle footwork to line up Prince for that straight right was pricless, and executed effortlessly.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Thawk888 said:


> Tell that to all those Euro-nuthuggers....


Most euros hate "Jones and Toney".


----------



## Thawk888

Hands of Iron said:


> Most euros hate "Jones and Toney".


I have a few regrets when it comes to boxing timelines, but one of the biggest, is the fact that Toney and or Jones didn't wipe out the competition at middle and super middle in Europe. Benn,Cal-slappy, etc.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Thawk888 said:


> I have a few regrets when it comes to boxing timelines, but one of the biggest, is the fact that Toney and or Jones didn't wipe out the competition at middle and super middle in Europe. Benn, Cal-slappy, etc.


How about Eubank with his monocle and gold-tipped cane? :rofl

Didn't realize you were quoting turbo on that other post... I actually think despite the 'thinness' of his CV, Toney has a great case for having the best pair of wins since at least 1990. I'll probably be making a thread to fully expand, see what other people think they were, who has them etc. No sense in it right now with the fights going on today though.


----------



## Pedderrs

Penalosa was better than Toney. Better defensively, better offensively.


----------



## Hands of Iron

He's very good.


----------



## Hands of Iron

the cobra said:


> *Old School. *:deal


Holy shite, that's a good look.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Penalosa was better than Toney. Better defensively, better offensively.


Both weren't good enough to carry Laciar's jockstrap.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Both weren't good enough to carry Laciar's jockstrap.


Gerry has far more problems against Roman than he does Laciar.


----------



## turbotime

Has a boxer ever went up 3 divisions, won a title, moved back down and defended their title like Roy did at light heavy/heavyweight and then back to light heavyweight?


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Gerry has far more problems against Roman than he does Laciar.


True.


----------



## turbotime

Bye fellas, I'll be re-visiting from time to time for sure (if the trolls get the best of it all)


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Bye fellas, I'll be re-visiting from time to time for sure (if the trolls get the best of it all)


You ain't goin nowhere.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You ain't goin nowhere.


http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...f-Music-Thread-*OFFICIAL*&p=761147#post761147


----------



## Hands of Iron

Been resolved.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Been resolved.


Interpret this painting.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Interpret this painting.


:think

Not as high on him as I used to be. I go through phases of course, but right now he's a guy with porous defense and a laundry list of fighters avoided. :yep


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :think
> 
> Not as high on him as I used to be. I go through phases of course, but right now he's a guy with porous defense and a laundry list of fighters avoided. :yep


My 1st thought seeing this was he was sloppily a 'king" in a largely black and white era , but the painter died. Interesting though.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> My 1st thought seeing this was he was sloppily a 'king" in a largely black and white era , but the painter died. Interesting though.


Could see that. I think the last straw with him was that "SRR/SRL" thread in Historical. Sort of like the "Who's a higher rated ATG: Hagler or Whitaker" thread turned me off about Marvin. :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Could see that. I think the last straw with him was that "SRR/SRL" thread in Historical. Sort of like the "Who's a higher rated ATG: Hagler or Whitaker" thread turned me off about Marvin. :lol:


Yeah you hate Hagler huh?


----------



## elterrible

His H2H sometimes gets overrated because he looks like freaking superman in there against cab drivers but if you look at him against hopkins, he still won 8 rounds but he couldnt do all of that crazy shit. He was too fast for hopkins to land his counters consistently enough but hops still won some rounds, especially when he took him to the ropes. RJJ is insanely gifted but remember he wont look like superman against other ATG's


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Yeah you hate Hagler huh?


I just think it's fucking dumb.

"Hagler is a Top 5 ATG Middleweight."

Whitaker is a Top 5 ATG LW? He was Undisputed too, but didn't have the titles already unified for him. And most of his best wins are above his peak weight in various divisions, all three of them. The End.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Ohh but Fucking Legendary Nights and WAR hats n shit. Toney has better wins at 160. :rofl


----------



## dyna

elterrible said:


> His H2H sometimes gets overrated because he looks like freaking superman in there against cab drivers but if you look at him against hopkins, he still won 8 rounds but he couldnt do all of that crazy shit. He was too fast for hopkins to land his counters consistently enough but hops still won some rounds, especially when he took him to the ropes. RJJ is insanely gifted but remember he wont look like superman against other ATG's


Roy his right hand was hurt, he practically beat B-Hop with his left.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I just think it's fucking dumb.
> 
> "Hagler is a Top 5 ATG Middleweight."
> 
> Whitaker is a Top 5 ATG LW? He was Undisputed too, but didn't have the titles already unified for him. And most of his best wins are above his peak weight in various divisions, all three of them. The End.





Hands of Iron said:


> Ohh but Fucking Legendary Nights and WAR hats n shit. Toney has better wins at 160. :rofl


:think

Need to look into think more heavily


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :think
> 
> Need to look into think more heavily


:lol: :conf


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: :conf


You think he had a bum of the month club?


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Ohh but Fucking Legendary Nights and WAR hats n shit. Toney has better wins at 160. :rofl


It's not quite that simple though because Hagler had the dominance and longevity which Toney always lacked in comparison to Hagler.. Hagler beat everyone he could

After a couple early career losses (which aren't that relevant anyway) you could argue that Hagler never lost a fight (imo he beat Leonard.)


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> You think he had a bum of the month club?


He was the bum.

:lol:

No, I think Whitaker is 'greater' and can't comprehend how people so brainlessly chose Hagler.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> He was the bum.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> No, I think Whitaker is 'greater' and can't comprehend how people so brainlessly chose Hagler.


I missed that thread.

Assemble! :ibutt


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> It's not quite that simple though because Hagler had the dominance and longevity which Toney always lacked in comparison to Hagler.. Hagler beat everyone he could
> 
> After a couple early career losses (which aren't that relevant anyway) you could argue that Hagler never lost a fight (imo he beat Leonard.)


Marvin is Defo a Greater Middleweight.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I missed that thread.
> 
> Assemble! :ibutt


I used to love Hagler. :-(

I always admired his versatility, silly hard jab and chin. How he came up and stayed loyal to the people that taught him the trade.

SRL hate and that Whitaker thread made me go the other way.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I used to love Hagler. :-(
> 
> I always admired his versatility, silly hard jab and chin. How he came up and stayed loyal to the people that taught him the trade.
> 
> SRL hate and that Whitaker thread made me go the other way.


Yeah man. Peeps LOVE Marvin almost mythically.


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Marvin is Defo a Greater Middleweight.


I'll put it like this, if Toney had Hagler's work ethic and consistency then u would have a case for him being top 5


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Yeah man. Peeps LOVE Marvin almost mythically.


I just don't think he was greater than Whitaker :lol: You didn't miss that thread, it was on ESB. I made a big post about it when I was posting as NWS. You even quoted it, elephant brain. I expanded on Toney having better top wins in the "Hagler in the late 80s/early 90s" thread in the Historical here. Better wins are just that, it means I think he's on the level with him (similar to SRL vs SRR) but not necessarily 'greater' becsuse of it @tommygun711


----------



## Hands of Iron

I realize Hagler was MADE for 160, I'm not fucking stupid. SMW wasn't around then either. The guy in my av is built for his division in a similar way.

Doesn't mean I won't laud someone like Whitaker for his own weight jumping achievements.


----------



## turbotime

elephant brain :rofl



I had to have been late to that party then as you probably summed my thoughts up perfectly. Of course Whitaker is fucking greater than Hagler atsch


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> I expanded on Toney having better top wins in the "Hagler in the late 80s/early 90s" thread in the Historical here. Better wins are just that, it means I think he's on the level with him (similar to SRL vs SRR) but not necessarily 'greater' becsuse of it @tommygun711


Their wins are kind of comparable if you ask me. at MW Hagler beat Leonard, Hearns, Hamsho, Roldan, Mugabi, Duran, Caveman Lee (solid fighter, no match for Marvin), Obelmejias (Underrated fighter) and Antuofermo twice.

Sure you can say that Leonard Hearns and Duran were all past prime but they are still all time great fighters. Hearns proved to be a more than respectable fighter post Hagler in his wins as he schooled DeWitt, knocked out Roldan and Shuler and others. Leonard also proved to be great after Hagler. Duran is the weakest of the 3 wins given the fact that he was a natural lightweight but he still beat up Davey Moore and had a great showing against Barkley.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> elephant brain :rofl
> 
> I had to have been late to that party then as you probably summed my thoughts up perfectly. Of course Whitaker is fucking greater than Hagler atsch


You're selective when it comes to membering things I say. 



tommygun711 said:


> Their wins are kind of comparable if you ask me. at MW Hagler beat Leonard, Hearns, Hamsho, Roldan, Mugabi, Duran, Caveman Lee (solid fighter, no match for Marvin), Obelmejias (Underrated fighter) and Antuofermo twice.
> 
> Sure you can say that Leonard Hearns and Duran were all past prime but they are still all time great fighters. Hearns proved to be a more than respectable fighter post Hagler in his wins as he schooled DeWitt, knocked out Roldan and Shuler and others. Leonard also proved to be great after Hagler. Duran is the weakest of the 3 wins given the fact that he was a natural lightweight but he still beat up Davey Moore and had a great showing against Barkley.


If you thought he beat SRL then yah, it gets closer.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You're selective when it comes to membering things I say.
> 
> If you thought he beat SRL then yah, it gets closer.


Sorry, I pretend like NWS just never happened. Like Rocky 5


----------



## tommygun711

You guys think Jones would beat Qawi @ LHW?


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> elephant brain :rofl
> 
> I had to have been late to that party then as you probably summed my thoughts up perfectly. Of course Whitaker is fucking greater than Hagler atsch





turbotime said:


> Sorry, I pretend like NWS just never happened. Like Rocky 5


NWS was quality. I have it registered here too :lol:

Anyway, people in that thread - and I mean a lot of them - were all "Hagler without question", "Hagler and it's not close", "Whitaker was a runner, Hagler had a much more entertaining *Brawling Style*" :rofl atsch


----------



## turbotime

I do. I think his legs are too good for Qawi


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> I do. I think his legs are too good for Qawi


you need more than that to beat qawi


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> you need more than that to beat qawi


You're kidding.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> NWS was quality. I have it registered here too :lol:
> 
> Anyway, people in that thread - and I mean a lot of them - were all "Hagler without question", "Hagler and it's not close", "Whitaker was a runner, Hagler had a much more entertaining *Brawling Style*" :rofl atsch


My heart rate just increased :err


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> You're kidding.


so basically you think Jones would beat Qawi kind of like Spinks did

except Jones lacked a gr8 jab which is essential against prime buzzsaw LHW Qawi


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> so basically you think Jones would beat Qawi kind of like Spinks did
> 
> except Jones lacked a gr8 jab which is essential against prime buzzsaw LHW Qawi


Roy's Lead right hand and uppercuts were his jabs. You need some sort of physical advantage over the best Jones IMO like taking a guy like Spinks he's huge for the weight and had great fundamentals. Same with a guy like Harold Johnson.

I would like to know what Qawi would do to beat Jones? He isn't luring him into a brawl like he did so many others.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Roy's Lead right hand and uppercuts were his jabs. You need some sort of physical advantage over the best Jones IMO like taking a guy like Spinks he's huge for the weight and had great fundamentals.


Ok solid points, I'd just like to add that Griffin did well against Jones the first time by counter punching and pressuring Jones against the ropes. he basically boxed even terms with Jones for a while. The difference is that Jones would not KD Qawi like he KD'd (and basically stopped) Griffin the first time.



> I would like to know what Qawi would do to beat Jones? He isn't luring him into a brawl like he did so many others.


Qawi would force his way on the inside and rip Jones' body mercilessly, we are talking about the Qawi that dismantled Saad Muhammad, not the one that lost to holyfield in the CW division. That Qawi was on a mission of destruction and he would eventually find Jones after Jones figures out that he can't stop Qawi.


----------



## Illuminaughty

tommygun711 said:


> Ok solid points, I'd just like to add that Griffin did well against Jones the first time by counter punching and pressuring Jones against the ropes. he basically boxed even terms with Jones for a while. The difference is that Jones would not KD Qawi like he KD'd (and basically stopped) Griffin the first time.


 but you're taking one fight where someone was competitive with roy jones and calling it a blueprint to beat him. roy closed the door on griffin fast in the second fight.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Ok solid points, I'd just like to add that Griffin did well against Jones the first time by counter punching and pressuring Jones against the ropes. he basically boxed even terms with Jones for a while. The difference is that Jones would not KD Qawi like he KD'd (and basically stopped) Griffin the first time.
> 
> Qawi would force his way on the inside and rip Jones' body mercilessly, we are talking about the Qawi that dismantled Saad Muhammad, not the one that lost to holyfield in the CW division. That Qawi was on a mission of destruction and he would eventually find Jones after Jones figures out that he can't stop Qawi.


For the life of me I can't see Qawi trying to box and counter Jones so I don't know what point you're trying to make with Griffen, then saying Qawi would ruthlessly attack Jones :lol:

Outside of a hailmary I don't see Qawi pulling it out.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> For the life of me I can't see Qawi trying to box and counter Jones so I don't know what point you're trying to make with Griffen, then saying Qawi would ruthlessly attack Jones :lol:
> 
> Outside of a hailmary I don't see Qawi pulling it out.


I'm not saying that Qawi will stay on the outside and box and counter. That's not Qawi's game, and frankly that's suicide against Roy Jones. If you noticed in the first Griffin fight, Griffin would pin Jones on the ropes and counter with left hooks as well as go to the body.

I'm saying that Qawi could imitate parts of Griffin's gameplan against Jones, the way that Griffin applied pressure and was successful when he let his hands go when Jones was against the ropes... The way he countered with left hooks when Jones left himself open in those flurries.

He was unsuccessful when he stayed on the outside and allowed Jones to get the punching room he needed, Qawi would close that gap and destroy Jones' body, counter Jones flurries with sneaky right crosses and hooks, and possibly stop him late.

Another point to make is that Jones was not super durable at 175, Qawi's pressure and firepower would certainly wear him out as the fight went on.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> I'm not saying that Qawi will stay on the outside and box and counter. That's not Qawi's game, and frankly that's suicide against Roy Jones. If you noticed in the first Griffin fight, Griffin would pin Jones on the ropes and counter with left hooks as well as go to the body.
> 
> I'm saying that Qawi could imitate parts of Griffin's gameplan against Jones, the way that Griffin applied pressure and was successful when he let his hands go when Jones was against the ropes... The way he countered with left hooks when Jones left himself open in those flurries.
> 
> He was unsuccessful when he stayed on the outside and allowed Jones to get the punching room he needed, Qawi would close that gap and destroy Jones' body, counter Jones flurries with sneaky right crosses and hooks, and possibly stop him late.
> 
> Another point to make is that Jones was not super durable at 175, Qawi's pressure and firepower would certainly wear him out as the fight went on.


That's fair enough but Jones had no problem fighting off the ropes with combinations and pivoting out. I don't see him stopping Jones or even dropping him. Maybe the 36 year old jones but not the one from '98

what makes you think Jones wasn't durable?


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> That's fair enough but Jones had no problem fighting off the ropes with combinations and pivoting out. I don't see him stopping Jones or even dropping him. Maybe the 36 year old jones but not the one from '98
> 
> what makes you think Jones wasn't durable?


The thing is, those combinations would be met by stiff right hand counters and hard left hooks from Qawi. Prime Jones' flaws and inconsistencies could not be exposed by inferior fighters but Qawi would pick up on those openings and hurt Jones.

Qawi's head movement would make Jones miss alot of his shots, a good shot for Jones here would be those mean uppercuts that he often used. He would have to use that shot given the height advantage.

I just think that the pressure of Qawi would eventually get to Jones, those body shots would wear Jones out. I could see Jones trying to bomb Qawi out at one point and Qawi just shrugging his shots off like they're nothing.

An important shot for Qawi would be the overhand right over the top when Jones tries to shoot his fancy left hooks, he could slip the left hook and then come through with a mean right hand over the top and hurt Jones.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> The thing is, those combinations would be met by stiff right hand counters and hard left hooks from Qawi. Prime Jones' flaws and inconsistencies could not be exposed by inferior fighters but Qawi would pick up on those openings and hurt Jones.
> 
> Qawi's head movement would make Jones miss alot of his shots, a good shot for Jones here would be those mean uppercuts that he often used. He would have to use that shot given the height advantage.
> 
> I just think that the pressure of Qawi would eventually get to Jones, those body shots would wear Jones out. I could see Jones trying to bomb Qawi out at one point and Qawi just shrugging his shots off like they're nothing.
> 
> An important shot for Qawi would be the overhand right over the top when Jones tries to shoot his fancy left hooks, he could slip the left hook and then come through with a mean right hand over the top and hurt Jones.


Jones lefts weren't fancy they were legitimate KO blows. You're making him out to be some powderpuff puncher, yet the first shot he landed on Toney Toney was scared to open up the rest of the fight.

What's your problem with Jones?


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Jones lefts weren't fancy they were legitimate KO blows. You're making him out to be some powderpuff puncher, yet the first shot he landed on Toney Toney was scared to open up the rest of the fight.
> 
> *What's your problem with Jones?*


:lol:


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Jones lefts weren't fancy they were legitimate KO blows. You're making him out to be some powderpuff puncher, yet the first shot he landed on Toney Toney was scared to open up the rest of the fight.
> 
> What's your problem with Jones?


Fancy as in the way he would double and triple the shot without throwing his right hand, I know that his hooks were lethal as fuck but he would be dealing with the likes of Dwight Muhammad Qawi here. Nobody would be stupid enough to say that he is a powderpuff puncher, cmon now.

Jones at LHW wasn't exactly the 1 punch knockout artist he was at 160/168 though, I'll say that. Most of the time he needed accumulation. Against Qawi he would not be knocking Qawi out at all, and if he had a more substantial jab I would feel more comfortable picking Jones.

The way Jones often kept his left hand down also would play against him against the likes of Qawi.

I don't have a problem with Jones, I just think Qawi dismantles him.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:


:lol: homeys been crapping on my thread since page 1 :-(

Jones' Hook > Qawi's right hand


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> :lol: homeys been crapping on my thread since page 1 :-(
> 
> Jones' Hook > Qawi's right hand


Qawi's Chin>Jones' Chin


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Qawi's Chin>Jones' Chin


Can't hit what you can't see


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :lol: homeys been crapping on my thread since page 1 :-(
> 
> Jones' Hook > Qawi's right hand


Tommy is always thinking up some H2H fantasy matches, probably even in lieu of eating and wanking. He disagrees with a shit ton of what we say, but must not mind cause he's always coming back. One of the little souls I talk to on a regular basis here now. :lol:


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Tommy is always thinking up some H2H fantasy matches, probably even in lieu of* eating and wanking.* He disagrees with a shit ton of what we say, but must not mind cause he's always coming back. One of the little souls I talk to on a regular basis here now. :lol:


:lol::rofl

Qawi is one of the best LHWs ever so it's all good if we disagree

certainly a winnable fight for both men


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> :lol::rofl
> 
> Qawi is one of the best LHWs ever so it's all good if we disagree
> 
> certainly a winnable fight for both men


:lol:

Yeah Qawi was the real deal though :yep How many times did he beat up Conteh?


----------



## turbotime

Is Roy even top 10 at 175? Why do people love to bring this version up so much? :think He was bored as fuck since no one could challenge him.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yeah Qawi was the real deal though :yep How many times did he beat up Conteh?


Qawi never fought Conteh


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Qawi never fought Conteh


Sorry was thinking of Saad (imo a tougher match than Qawi for Jones)


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Sorry was thinking of Saad *(imo a tougher match than Qawi for Jones)*


:fire

Saad could get outboxed for over 10 rounds by Jones and then maybe sparking Jones out late, while Qawi would be constantly applying pressure on Jones for the entire fight.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> :fire*
> 
> Saad could get outboxed for over 10 rounds by Jones and then maybe sparking Jones out late,* while Qawi would be constantly applying pressure on Jones for the entire fight.


Basically like Qawi/Jones then :rofl


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Is Roy even top 10 at 175? Why do people love to bring this version up so much? :think He was bored as fuck since no one could challenge him.


Griffin rematch and Hill versions were spectacular. I like 160-168 Roy though. Things werent as exciting when he went to 175.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Griffin rematch and Hill versions were spectacular. I like 160-168 Roy though. Things werent as exciting when he went to 175.


Griffin 1 and II were nice. But yeah 175 Roy was bored as fuck. I remember peple were actually saying he was gonna duck Woods :lol: I don't think you realize how hated Pea, Jones and Oskee were back then.


----------



## dyna

First Griffin fight:Maybe RJJ is beatable after all
Second fight: I was so wrong


----------



## artful

Greatest fighter? no, might be the best athlete to step in the ring though.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Griffin 1 and II were nice. But yeah 175 Roy was bored as fuck. I remember peple were actually saying he was gonna duck Woods :lol: I don't think you realize how hated Pea, Jones and Oskee were back then.


As hated as Rigondeaux? I think not.


----------



## Lester1583

turbotime said:


> I don't think you realize how hated Pea, Jones and Oskee were back then.





Hands of Iron said:


> As hated as Rigondeaux? I think not.


Rigo bores most people to tears.

Jones was hated.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> Rigo bores most people to tears.
> 
> Jones was hated.


I think I subconsciously picked a favorite to focus on post-Toney/McCallum fun that didn't have cement feet, to say the least. :hey You're highly influential, Lester.

Rigo doesn't bore you though, you purist you. :deal


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> You're highly influential, Lester.


Yes, I am.











Hands of Iron said:


> Rigo doesn't bore you though, you purist you. :deal


I consider Rigo an action fighter.

In his own rather unusual way.

Very, very, very unusual way.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> Yes, I am.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I consider Rigo an action fighter.
> 
> In his own rather unusual way.
> 
> Very, very, very unusual way.


 I'd be inclined to like him regardless as I do almost all great slick counterpuncher types, but I'd probably be lying if I said the steam and intentions he is able to let off with don't play a big role in the overall intrigue. He doesn't otherwise really have the diversity to his game like a Pea or Floyd do to keep me entertained without possessing that sort of pop.


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> Rigo bores most people to tears.
> 
> Jones was hated.


Roy never helped himself though.Like Hagler,he was surly,resentful and unfriendly and couldn't even fill the theatre at MSG.
It's hard to be anything other than yourself,but if you want to crossover then you need to bite the bullet about certain things.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> cement feet


Speaking of amazing footwork.

Check this short clip out:





2:00-2:06 - damn!

He was trained by the same guy who trained Pastrano too.


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> Roy never helped himself though.Like Hagler,he was surly,resentful and unfriendly and couldn't even fill the theatre at MSG.
> It's hard to be anything other than yourself,but if you want to crossover then you need to bite the bullet about certain things.


Rigo doesn't do too much for his cause either though.  I made a comment, I think in this very thread, about him going to be pretty much forgotten in 20 years, talking I think with @steviebruno or @JMP . If he doesn't get the further required fights to validate an ATG status then perhaps he may, but not by me. This whole fallout after Agbeko with cunts like Rafael, Iole and other mainstream outlet boxing 'pundits' and casual-type fans is a big reason I've gotten behind him again. Turbo dont like it :lol: but it's really just reaffirmation and support, not something particularly new.



Lester1583 said:


> Speaking of amazing footwork.
> 
> Check this short clip out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2:00-2:06 - damn!
> 
> He was trained by the same guy who trained Pastrano too.


The OG's were smooth as hell.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester, what'd you think of Gavilan-Turner? :yikes


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> Rigo doesn't do too much for his cause either though.  I made a comment, I think in this very thread, about him going to be pretty much forgotten in 20 years, talking I think with @steviebruno or @JMP . If he doesn't get the further required fights to validate an ATG status then perhaps he may, but not by me. This whole fallout after Agbeko with cunts like Rafael, Iole and other mainstream outlet boxing 'pundits' and casual-type fans is a big reason I've gotten behind him again. Turbo dont like it :lol: but it's really just reaffirmation and support, not something particularly new.
> 
> The OG's were smooth as hell.


I think even learning English wouldn't do much for Rigo now.
If only he'd been Mexican.
I can relate to that feeling out of place and unsure of your identity since this damn Vitaligo ruined my life.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Lester, what'd you think of Gavilan-Turner? :yikes


Excellent fight - almost a Williams vs Beau-like finish.

One of (if not the) Gavilan's best fights.

As far as power and speed especially are concerned Gavilan gets really underrated.

He was no Hearns but he was no featherfister either.

And you rarely see his name when people discussing fast fighters.

Not Fullmer, Graziano, etc. - Gavilan is a testament to Robinson's H2H-beastness.

I know @Flea Man thinks highly of Turner.


----------



## Leftsmash

turbotime said:


> Griffin 1 and II were nice. But yeah 175 Roy was bored as fuck. I remember peple were actually saying he was gonna duck Woods :lol: I don't think you realize how hated Pea, Jones and Oskee were back then.


They had their haters but they still had many fans that just weren't as vocal I guess but hell theres been quite a few 90's hip hop tracks where Jones was mentioned heaps by a ton of artists.


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> I think even learning English wouldn't do much for Rigo now.
> If only he'd been Mexican.


Casual fans are dumb as shit. 



> I can relate to that feeling out of place and unsure of your identity since this damn Vitaligo ruined my life.


:lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

:happy



Roy definitely has many of his doubters reconsidering after today


----------



## SJS20

He adapted his style for his age tonight which is a first for him and he ACTUALLY THREW PUNCHES IN BUNCHES TO STOP THE OTHER GUY FROM STORMING ON TO HIM.


----------



## SJS20




----------



## SJS20

This is Roy training before his fight at the weekend.

I enjoyed watching this, the last few training video's he hasn't looked as fit or well co-ordinated as he does here, he jumps the rope without tripping up here, which I haven't seen in a long time.


----------



## Leftsmash

Im glad to hear he won, to be honest I wasn't going to watch it at all. I hope he didn't take too much punishment through the fight.


----------



## Jonnybravo

Roy is one of the few fighters that has more fans after being shot than he ever did in his prime :deal


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy


Jones wants to become a Russian citizen.


----------



## priyass

ROY JONES JR. DEFEATS BENMAKHLOUF 
[VIDEO]


----------



## turbotime

Jonnybravo said:


> Roy is one of the few fighters that has more fans after being shot than he ever did in his prime :deal


I'm dying :rofl


----------



## SJS20

He's got more fans now than he did in his pomp because people never appreciate what they have until it's gone


----------



## tezel8764




----------



## SouthPaw

Jones had/has an enormous amount of fans in the Southern US...Remember folks, he was selling out arenas throughout the country in his prime.


----------



## Hands of Iron

SJS20 said:


> He's got more fans now than he did in his pomp because people never appreciate what they have until it's gone


They'll have to speak for themselves on that one. I am soaking up every Floyd fight we get.


----------



## turbotime

tezel8764 said:


>


Fuck sakes :happy


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

turbotime said:


> I remember peple were actually saying he was gonna duck Woods :lol:


People relentlessly trashed the Woods fight back then. People wanted to see Roy fight Jirov, who was a far more well known commodity at the time than Woods, who'd done nothing of note at world level at that point in his career.



Leftsmash said:


> but hell theres been quite a few 90's hip hop tracks where Jones was mentioned heaps by a ton of artists.


That's hardly a ringing endorsement for Jones, is it?


----------



## turbotime

Kid Generic Alias said:


> People relentlessly trashed the Woods fight back then. People wanted to see Roy fight Jirov, who was a far more well known commodity at the time than Woods, who'd done nothing of note at world level at that point in his career.


Once it got signed people trashed it, but before Jones had his pen on paper people cried duck :cry


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

Nope.


----------



## turbotime

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Nope.


:lol: what Tea sipping low level contender did roy beat up to make you sad??


----------



## Leftsmash

Kid Generic Alias said:


> That's hardly a ringing endorsement for Jones, is it?


Well it shows he popular enough to be shouted out by no means did it make him a superstar of course.


----------



## SJS20

Hands of Iron said:


> They'll have to speak for themselves on that one. I am soaking up every Floyd fight we get.


You'll be coming over here for the Khan fight at Wembely then...


----------



## Hands of Iron

SJS20 said:


> You'll be coming over here for the Khan fight at Wembely then...


No, I live in the hood dude, I don't have money to blow on that :lol:


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

turbotime said:


> :lol: what Tea sipping low level contender did roy beat up to make you sad??


No idea what you're talking about. I'm just laughing at the notion that there was any sort of demand for Roy Jones to fight Clinton Woods.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/stories/2002-05-01-jones.htm


----------



## Hands of Iron

Leftsmash said:


> Well it shows he popular enough to be shouted out by no means did it make him a superstar of course.







Roy Jones shout out
@MichiganWarrior You don't like Sean P's HS stuff??


----------



## turbotime

Kid Generic Alias said:


> No idea what you're talking about. I'm just laughing at the notion that there was any sort of demand for Roy Jones to fight Clinton Woods.
> 
> http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/stories/2002-05-01-jones.htm


No demand, but like PBF was "Ducking Canelo" before Canelo even beat Trout- you guys show your colors months ahead. :conf


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

There was real demand for the Alvarez fight. Golden Boy and Oscar did a hell of a job in promoting the guy and convincing a lot of people that he was something more than a pretty solid fighter. One day we can all look back and laugh at how silly so many people were.


----------



## SimplyTuck

The Ronaldinho of boxing.


----------



## turbotime




----------



## Hands of Iron

God damn they started blasting that Marvin Gaye fuckin loud :lol: Had to put the phone right up to my ear to hear his comments


----------



## turbotime

:lol:

Pascal at 1:30 know what it is.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Aren't you supposed to be making radio appearances to school MMA foolz on boxing? :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Aren't you supposed to be making radio appearances to school MMA foolz on boxing? :lol:


Soon as I get back :yep Can't wait for this. I was amazed at how many shouts guys like Tyson and Dempsey were getting.:err


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Soon as I get back :yep Can't wait for this. I was amazed at how many shouts guys like Tyson and Dempsey were getting.:err


:rofl :rofl :happy

I gotta hear some of that... You need to shine a light on guys like Floyd, but also lesser casual knowns like Pea, Toney, Benitez, Rigo, et al. :deal I love all styles, but this been my thing to be fixated on for a few months now. They're all SO different and lovely, but part of the same sect I suppose.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> I gotta hear some of that... You need to shine a light on guys like Floyd, but also lesser casual knowns like Pea, Toney, Benitez, Rigo, et al. :deal I love all styles, but this been my thing to be fixated on for a few months now. They're all SO different and lovely, but part of the *same sect* I suppose.


All flash and no substance.

Zapata, Happy Lora and Canto is where it's at.

This destroys Mayweather's entire career:


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> All flash and no substance.
> 
> Zapata, Happy Lora and Canto is where it's at.
> 
> This destroys Mayweather's entire career:


This is where it's at :deal
(In a completely different sport)






Damn you @tezel8764 :lol:


----------



## pipe wrenched

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy Jones shout out
> 
> @MichiganWarrior You don't like Sean P's HS stuff??


That sound like the Pharcyde, some of that "LabCabInCalifornia" :yep


----------



## tezel8764

Hands of Iron said:


> This is where it's at :deal
> (In a completely different sport)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn you @*tezel8764* :lol:


Kareem v Hakeem? Who you got bro?

And what do you think about Dwight Howard?










He's never used any of the post moves that Olajawon has taught him. :lol: :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron

tezel8764 said:


> Kareem v Hakeem? Who you got bro?
> 
> And what do you think about Dwight Howard?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's never used any of the post moves that Olajawon has taught him. :lol: :-(


Well in terms of preference, Olajuwon by miles. Kareem's production, effectiveness and achievements are all GOAT level though.

Those moves are much harder to emulate in a live game @JMP and this even in a shit era for big men.


----------



## Cableaddict

Lester1583 said:


> All flash and no substance.
> 
> Zapata, Happy Lora and Canto is where it's at.
> 
> This destroys Mayweather's entire career:


Feh.

Just another "Rios Alvado" brawl, IMO. Might as well watch MMA.

If this floats yer boat, no problem, but I find it boring. Rigo, on the other hand, is mezmerizing. Heck, I even prefer watching Paulie.

- but it's all good. As long as people tune in and the networks notice. :good


----------



## PityTheFool

turbotime said:


> Soon as I get back :yep Can't wait for this. I was amazed at how many shouts guys like Tyson and Dempsey were getting.:err


What's this turbo?
Will I be able to hear this?
Or am I back on your bad shit list? :lol:


----------



## turbotime

PityTheFool said:


> What's this turbo?
> Will I be able to hear this?
> Or am I back on your bad shit list? :lol:


Yeah definitely! (to hear it, not that youer on my shit list :lol: )


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Yeah definitely! (to hear it, not that youer on my shit list :lol: )


I can't wait :lol:






I don't think he was properly introduced to him until Ronnie Shields showed him videos, they're nothing alike despite Kellerman's insistence.

"Pernell Whitaker with power" :rofl

Shoot me fucking dead.


----------



## Satan

Just think if he would have retired after the first Tarver fight


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I can't wait :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he was properly introduced to him until Ronnie Shields showed him videos, they're nothing alike despite Kellerman's insistence.
> 
> "Pernell Whitaker with power" :rofl
> 
> Shoot me fucking dead.


I got love for Max and he got me very high on Judah with all that Whitaker with power talk. Fucking Max breaking my heart :rofl


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I got love for Max and he got me very high on Judah with all that Whitaker with power talk. Fucking Max breaking my heart :rofl


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> dude really? Is that something you really disagree with? It would just be me naming a bunch of names with no explanation
> 
> not worth it for me.. like, greb, fitz, ricardo lopez, greb, ali, benny leonard, ray leonard, jack johnson, joe louis, duran, hagler, gavilan, hearns, lewis, barney ross, Tony Canzoneri, Moore, Wilde, Gans, Armstrong, Holyfield, etc.. there's 22. i can be bothered naming more


:lol: P4p Jones whups them


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> :lol: P4p Jones whups them


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when his two best wins are over toney and hopkins


This just comes off sounding so ridiculous :rofl



Dealt_with said:


> :huh How do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


<-------- :yep


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> This just comes off sounding so ridiculous :rofl


i already explained why, while they are both excellent wins, Hopkins would improve from that fight on ( a fighter that genuinely improved with exp) and there was alot of talk about Toney struggling with weight. And Tiberi beat Toney. So did Griffin.

He's just not better than Ali for that reason alone. he's just not. Ali has better wins, more quality wins, and was just better. There's not enough depth in Jones' resume to say hes the best ever. Fuck that.


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when his two best wins are over toney and hopkins





tommygun711 said:


> i already explained why, while they are both excellent wins, Hopkins would improve from that fight on ( a fighter that genuinely improved with exp) and there was alot of talk about Toney struggling with weight. And Tiberi beat Toney. So did Griffin.
> 
> He's just not better than Ali for that reason alone. he's just not. Ali has better wins, more quality wins, and was just better. There's not enough depth in Jones' resume to say hes the best ever. Fuck that.


That ain't even the most ridiculous part. You gonna tell him which films and albums are the greatest he's seen and heard as well?


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> That ain't even the most ridiculous part. You gonna tell him which films and albums are the greatest he's seen and heard as well?


Aquemini is the GOAT album but that's not the point.

Jones doesn't have the depth to even be considered. Ali looks just as good as Jones on film except Ali has the better resume. *It's a shitty opinion.* If you rank strictly on the "eye test" as Luf always says then yeah he's top 5 all time. PERSONALLY I rank on a system that combines all of those aspects, which is only fair.


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when he looks so spectacular





tommygun711 said:


> Aquemini is the GOAT album but that's not the point.
> 
> Jones doesn't have the depth to even be considered. Ali looks just as good as Jones on film except Ali has the better resume. *It's a shitty opinion.* If you rank strictly on the "eye test" as Luf always says then yeah he's top 5 all time. PERSONALLY I rank on a system that combines all of those aspects, which is only fair.


Not even the best in Outkast's own catalogue.


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> Not even the best in Outkast's own catalogue.


Only one that comes close to Aquemini is ATLiens but I think Aquemini has aged alot better.

Comparing fighters is alot different than comparing films and movies anyway and you know that. For me you can't just rank on the eye test. Resume has to come in at a certain point.


----------



## KO_VALEV

_♪♪ Roy Jones is the greatest... ♪♪

♪♪ thing I ever saw... ♪♪

♪♪ can't wait for his next fight ♪♪

♪♪ Tomorrow's much too long ♪♪

♪♪ I'll burn my eyes out ♪♪

♪♪ Before I get out ♪♪_


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

I watched 2 more Monzon fights over the past 2 weeks, and I'm actually starting to see why RJJ would win. Is my Monzon hype coming to an end? (Hopefully, the man was a cunt).
Nevertheless, it's still hard to call it, as the arguments I gave for Monzon really are compelling.


----------



## KO_VALEV

LOma UDs Monzon (might suffer a flash KD, though)


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


>


What? :rofl Ross p4p vs Jones?


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> What? :rofl Ross p4p vs Jones?


Jones doesnt whoop Leonard p4p nevermind ali lol


----------



## turbotime

FFS this isn'rabout resume. Read the thread title.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Jones doesnt whoop Leonard p4p nevermind ali lol


Jones wouldn't have lost to a midget lightweight


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Jones wouldn't have lost to a midget lightweight


He still managed to lose to tarver though which is more embarrassing :lol:

And fuck yo rules, resume goes into the p4p argument


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> He still managed to lose to tarver though which is more embarrassing :lol:
> 
> And fuck yo rules, resume goes into the p4p argument


Leonard lost to Camacho


----------



## MAG1965

his handspeed was some of the best I have ever seen. No doubt. I saw him fight in Reno in April of 1992 against Art Serwano. Just amazing.


----------



## turbotime

MAG1965 said:


> his handspeed was some of the best I have ever seen. No doubt.* I saw him fight in Reno in April of 1992 against Art Serwano. Just amazing*.


Lucky


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

Satan said:


> Just think if he would have retired after the first Tarver fight


And miss out on a great knockout? Miss out on Roid getting his comeuppance?

What a beautiful night.


----------



## MAG1965

turbotime said:


> Lucky


It was impressive. I was sittting 2 rows back from a walkway and he walked right by me after the fight. Later I saw Al Bernstein and almost fell out of the row trying to shake his hand. Roy had power in those early years. Not many guys lasted many rounds with him.


----------



## turbotime

MAG1965 said:


> It was impressive. I was sittting 2 rows back from a walkway and he walked right by me after the fight. *Later I saw Al Bernstein and almost fell out of the row trying to shake his hand. * Roy had power in those early years. Not many guys lasted many rounds with him.


:lol: That's too awesome. Did he shake it? Reminds me of me when I met Mosley I tripped all over just to hug the dude that no one else really knew


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Jones wouldn't have lost to a midget lightweight


A midget?? You little fuck, he's our height. :-( :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> A midget?? You little fuck, he's our height. :-( :lol:


:rofl

You know what I meant :twisted


----------



## SouthPaw

The only time I saw Roy in person was the Glen Johnson fight :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :rofl
> 
> You know what I meant :twisted




As much it would be nice to call him a lightweight stepping up and whooping him that'd be a bold faced damn lie. It's what Pachilles is referring to in part. Duran couldn't of made lightweight anymore if his life depended on it. He'd been a real welter for sometime, naturally. What happened when he got even thicker at 30+ is diminished attributes and reflexes, and a chubbish unimpressive looking figure. He stood too upright and looked like he was wearing an invisible neck brace at times when he got to light middle.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> As much it would be nice to call him a lightweight stepping up and whooping him that'd be a bold faced damn lie. It's what Pachilles is referring to in part. Duran couldn't of made lightweight anymore if his life depended on it. He'd been a real welter for sometime, naturally. What happened when he got even thicker at 30+ is diminished attributes and reflexes, and a chubbish unimpressive looking figure. He stood too upright and looked like he was wearing an invisible neck brace at times when he got to light middle.


Man. Robby looked like gash at 154. That Barkley win at 160 was the fight of his life almost on par with SRL 1 fr me. How many lightweight champs won the MW title?


----------



## Hands of Iron

People think I exaggerate on Duran's 154 form -- Compared to what he was at 147 it's fucking DRASTIC I'm telling you. Not even half the fighter. He was slow as absolute fuck, even when he was laying a beating on Cuevas and Moore. He still had some defense but his upper body movement as a whole was just immensely less fluid and reflexive. This is a guy who was flashing hand speed nearly capable of matching Leonard's that night, who was popping him with lead rights and counters, slipping and rolling hundreds of punches, getting the better of him in mid-range exchanges. He would've hurt Floyd and beat him, that Duran. Light Middle Duran doesn't win more than a round. That drastic. To me.


turbotime said:


> Man. Robby looked like gash at 154. That Barkley win at 160 was the fight of his life almost on par with SRL 1 fr me. How many lightweight champs won the MW title?


----------



## dyna

Hands of Iron said:


> People think I exaggerate on Duran's 154 form -- Compared to what he was at 147 it's fucking DRASTIC I'm telling you. Not even half the fighter. He was slow as absolute fuck, even when he was laying a beating on Cuevas and Moore. He still had some defense but his upper body movement as a whole was just immensely less fluid and reflexive. This is a guy who was flashing hand speed nearly capable of matching Leonard's that night, who was popping him with lead rights and counters, slipping and rolling hundreds of punches, getting the better of him in mid-range exchanges. He would've hurt Floyd and beat him, that Duran. Light Middle Duran doesn't win more than a round. That drastic. To me.


And he still took Hagler the full distance.
Imagine what a prime Duran would do to him :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

dyna said:


> And he still took Hagler the full distance.
> Imagine what a prime Duran would do to him :lol:


:rofl

Hagler: "He's a legend and I beat him, so give me credit."

Eh, no. Definitely established Roberto was on a completely different tier P4P. Marvin was in awe at what was looking back at him in the opposite corner: A fat, former lightweight well past his best and who did not even train for the bout. The only contender Marvin fought as champion who went the distance with him, aside from the coked out, one eyed, one fight in five years welterweight.


----------



## turbotime

:rofl

Fuck Hagler


----------



## dyna

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> 
> *Hagler: "He's a legend and I beat him, so give me credit."*
> 
> Eh, no. Definitely established Roberto was on a completely different tier P4P. Marvin was in awe at what was looking back at him in the opposite corner: A fat, former lightweight well past his best and who did not even train for the bout. The only contender Marvin fought as champion who went the distance with him, aside from the coked out, one eyed, one fight in five years welterweight.


When you beat a legend, you become a legend 
:lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Hagler: "He's a legend and I beat him, so give me credit."
> h, no.


One of the least impressive Hagler's performances.

Should've crushed Duran like a fat midget he was.

Mayweather gets almost no credit for beating Marquez from most sensible fans (and rightfully so) - at least he dominated Marquez.

Monzon's win over Napoles (who was unlike Duran the #1 fighter in the world when he challenged Monzon) is overrated - at least he stopped Naploes.

Duran was a better middle than Napoles and Marquez was outright crap vs Floyd but still one would have expected more from the undisputed P4P#1 and one the greatest middleweights of all time.

Instead Hagler fought him like Duran was Rigo and Hagler big Agbeko.:-(


----------



## MAG1965

turbotime said:


> :lol: That's too awesome. Did he shake it? Reminds me of me when I met Mosley I tripped all over just to hug the dude that no one else really knew


Yeah I shook his hand, but he looked at me like I was an oddball for almost falling over the seats to shake his hand. Actually Al Bernstein is a pretty straight forward guy. I met Bramble at ringside also, and Mills Lane was there also. I remember touching Bramble's shoulder and arm to get his attention and he was solid. Hard as a rock. I remember that football player turned boxer fought on the undercard. Mark Gastinuea. When did you meet Mosley? I met him at the Hall of Fame dinner in 1998. He was with his young son, who must have been about 11 or 12 then. What struck me about Mosley is he didn't seem tall at all. Most fighters have seem shorter when I met them then they said. Have you noticed that?


----------



## turbotime

:rofl :rofl





 @Hands of Iron


----------



## Primadonna Kool

Roy Jones was the most physically gifted fighter to ever step inside he boxing ring. It is also a massive myth that he had no fundamentals, this is something that people say to sound intelligent. Roy Jones did things Floyd Mayweather could never comprehend, from a technical perspective. Roy Jones operated on a level, of motor co-ordination that has never been seen before......or since!

Boxing is a physical sport, there are plenty of boxers of there with fundamentals who retired. People make out that its all about skills, listen if this was the case Larry Holmes would still be the heavyweight champion at whatever age he is now. Fighters such as Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins biggest asset are still their athletic ability and motor co-ordination. Once these attribute dramatically decrease, they are both completely wasted.

Boxing is a physical sport, its not Golf guys.


----------



## turbotime

Primadonna Kool said:


> Roy Jones was the most physically gifted fighter to ever step inside he boxing ring. It is also a massive myth that he had no fundamentals, this is something that people say to sound intelligent. Roy Jones did things Floyd Mayweather could never comprehend, from a technical perspective. Roy Jones operated on a level, of motor co-ordination that has never been seen before......or since!
> 
> Boxing is a physical sport, there are plenty of boxers of there with fundamentals who retired. People make out that its all about skills, listen if this was the case Larry Holmes would still be the heavyweight champion at whatever age he is now. Fighters such as Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins biggest asset are still their athletic ability and motor co-ordination. Once these attribute dramatically decrease, they are both completely wasted.
> 
> Boxing is a physical sport, its not Golf guys.


Great post


----------



## Primadonna Kool

turbotime said:


> Great post


Its annoying the way people make out guys like Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins don't rely on the superior physical & motor co-ordination abilities. Floyd Maywether's biggest asset, is his spatial awareness, reaction time, speed, athleticism, agility. People don't even know what skills are, you have to have these physiological abilities in order to learn and apply most skills. One does not come without the other, and as soon as Floyd Mayweather dramatically decreases in these areas JUST like Roy Jones did he will be complete wasted.

In terms of motor co-ordination Roy Jones had the ability to operate pretty much like a machine gun. Guys like Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins have to constantly reset, reset, reset. Information seemed to be being processed at a alarming rate when Roy Jones was at his peak, i am talking about his body automatically knowing where his centre of mass was! And the body alignment adjustments, which he would subconsciously make in afew hundredths of a second.

"This is similar what Olympic Gymnast do"..

When you get athletes like that in he game, the basics are like learning the 2 times table to Albert Einstein. Prince Naseem Hamed also had these abilities, and these athlete's usually get bored with the logical basics, that where created for people..."With no ability".

Albert Einstein stated that creativity is the highest form of intelligence, because it comes out of the subconscious mind and is not logic based. I can remember a fight when Sugar Ray Leonard was commentating on Roy Jones...

Sugar Ray Leonard stated..

"I have never seen a fighter throw that combination, in that situation"

There are allot of fighters who lack creativity these days, they all operate from a logical perspective.

Which makes them boring, and predictable.


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> 
> Hagler: "He's a legend and I beat him, so give me credit."
> 
> Eh, no. Definitely established Roberto was on a completely different tier P4P. Marvin was in awe at what was looking back at him in the opposite corner: A fat, former lightweight well past his best *and who did not even train for the bout*. The only contender Marvin fought as champion who went the distance with him, aside from the coked out, one eyed, one fight in five years welterweight.


Has Duran ever actually spent a day in a gym in his life?


----------



## LittleRed

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Has Duran ever actually spent a day in a gym in his life?


Fun fact- in Panamanian Spanish the words for gym and buffet are the same.


----------



## turbotime

Primadonna Kool said:


> Its annoying the way people make out guys like Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins don't rely on the superior physical & motor co-ordination abilities. Floyd Maywether's biggest asset, is his spatial awareness, reaction time, speed, athleticism, agility. People don't even know what skills are, you have to have these physiological abilities in order to learn and apply most skills. One does not come without the other, and as soon as Floyd Mayweather dramatically decreases in these areas JUST like Roy Jones did he will be complete wasted.
> 
> In terms of motor co-ordination Roy Jones had the ability to operate pretty much like a machine gun. Guys like Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins have to constantly reset, reset, reset. Information seemed to be being processed at a alarming rate when Roy Jones was at his peak, i am talking about his body automatically knowing where his centre of mass was! And the body alignment adjustments, which he would subconsciously make in afew hundredths of a second.
> 
> "This is similar what Olympic Gymnast do"..
> 
> When you get athletes like that in he game, the basics are like learning the 2 times table to Albert Einstein. Prince Naseem Hamed also had these abilities, and these athlete's usually get bored with the logical basics, that where created for people..."With no ability".
> 
> Albert Einstein stated that creativity is the highest form of intelligence, because it comes out of the subconscious mind and is not logic based. I can remember a fight when Sugar Ray Leonard was commentating on Roy Jones...
> 
> Sugar Ray Leonard stated..
> 
> "I have never seen a fighter throw that combination, in that situation"
> 
> There are allot of fighters who lack creativity these days, they all operate from a logical perspective.
> 
> Which makes them boring, and predictable.


I honestly don't know where to start. I agree.

What do you do physically when you're faced with what Jones has? Listen to Atlas and say 'oh well land a big uppercut when Jones Flurries'? The Flurries will catch you on your ass or back 3 feet. No one will face what Jones has from 1994 and back.


----------



## Primadonna Kool

turbotime said:


> I honestly don't know where to start. I agree.
> 
> What do you do physically when you're faced with what Jones has? Listen to Atlas and say 'oh well land a big uppercut when Jones Flurries'? The Flurries will catch you on your ass or back 3 feet. No one will face what Jones has from 1994 and back.


Still to this day...

Roy Jones is the only fighter Bernard Hopkins has admitted losing to.

It was Roy Jones that really made Bernard Hopkins think about how his career would progress.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Hands of Iron said:


> People think I exaggerate on Duran's 154 form -- Compared to what he was at 147 it's fucking DRASTIC I'm telling you. Not even half the fighter. He was slow as absolute fuck, even when he was laying a beating on Cuevas and Moore. He still had some defense but his upper body movement as a whole was just immensely less fluid and reflexive. This is a guy who was flashing hand speed nearly capable of matching Leonard's that night, who was popping him with lead rights and counters, slipping and rolling hundreds of punches, getting the better of him in mid-range exchanges. He would've hurt Floyd and beat him, that Duran. Light Middle Duran doesn't win more than a round. That drastic. To me.


True he had declined very clearly from 147, though i thought he looked genuinely excellent again just for that one fight against Moore(albeit aided significantly by thumbing the eye shut early).The variety of punches and some of those angles he was getting into defensively in that fight to slip quality punches at close-mid range(Moore was a beast of an offensive fighter) are beyond anything seen since imo.

There's no way 154 Mayweather would win every round against that fighter.He might not win at all.


----------



## rossco

Prime Jones was a thing of beauty. He just lacked the technicality to fall back on when he lost a % of his outstanding reflexes. Hopkins aged better the Jones because he's technically far superior to Jones.


----------



## rossco

Lester1583 said:


> One of the least impressive Hagler's performances.
> 
> Should've crushed Duran like a fat midget he was.
> 
> Mayweather gets almost no credit for beating Marquez from most sensible fans (and rightfully so) - at least he dominated Marquez.
> 
> Monzon's win over Napoles (who was unlike Duran the #1 fighter in the world when he challenged Monzon) is overrated - at least he stopped Naploes.
> 
> Duran was a better middle than Napoles and Marquez was outright crap vs Floyd but still one would have expected more from the undisputed P4P#1 and one the greatest middleweights of all time.
> 
> Instead Hagler fought him like Duran was Rigo and Hagler big Agbeko.:-(


I think it was a style thing. Hagler would always struggle against a Duran that turns up in decent shape.


----------



## Lester1583

rossco said:


> I think it was a style thing. Hagler would always struggle against a Duran that turns up in decent shape.


Hagler was a face-first brawler just like Duran was.

Inexcusably bad performance.


----------



## rossco

Lester1583 said:


> Hagler was a face-first brawler just like Duran was.
> 
> Inexcusably bad performance.


Duran was a very intelligent pressure fighter. He would always give Hagler problems. As I said, its a style thing.


----------



## Flea Man

Cableaddict said:


> Feh.
> 
> Just another "Rios Alvado" brawl, IMO. Might as well watch MMA.
> 
> If this floats yer boat, no problem, but I find it boring. Rigo, on the other hand, is mezmerizing. Heck, I even prefer watching Paulie.
> 
> - but it's all good. As long as people tune in and the networks notice. :good


That's Samart Payakaroon one of the most gifted operators of all time and an insanely talented defensive operator.


----------



## Flea Man

Qawi would beat Jones. Possibly.


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> Qawi would beat Jones. Possibly.


Qawi would be taken to the ballet, losing 0-12


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> Qawi would be taken to the ballet, losing 0-12


You're an idiot.


----------



## turbotime

rossco said:


> Prime Jones was a thing of beauty. He just lacked the technicality to fall back on when he lost a % of his outstanding reflexes. Hopkins aged better the Jones because *he's technically far superior to Jones.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> :stonk


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> You're an idiot.


I love you more


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> I love you more


No, I love you more.

You know I am a Roy hater, right?


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> No, I love you more.
> 
> You know I am a Roy hater, right?


No but I really do. You hate Roy, its ok.

Now go jack yourself silly to some LMR tapes !


----------



## rossco

turbotime said:


> rossco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Jones was a thing of beauty. He just lacked the technicality to fall back on when he lost a % of his outstanding reflexes. Hopkins aged better the Jones because *he's technically far superior to Jones.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> :stonk
> 
> 
> 
> He is though. especially in terms of footwork and defence. Hopkins is really technically outstanding if a bit boring to watch. Jones imo could well be the most athletically talented fighter ever born but he is not on the level of Hopkins technically. Most of the boxers who age well and stay at elite level for years are technically immense. Hopkins is one of these guys, Jones is not.
Click to expand...


----------



## turbotime

rossco said:


> turbotime said:
> 
> 
> 
> He is though. especially in terms of footwork and defence. Hopkins is really technically outstanding if a bit boring to watch. Jones imo could well be the most athletically talented fighter ever born but he is not on the level of Hopkins technically. Most of the boxers who age well and stay at elite level for years are technically immense. Hopkins is one of these guys, Jones is not.
> 
> 
> 
> You're confusing "strong points" with "far superior"
Click to expand...


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Qawi would be taken to the ballet, losing 0-12


Fuck that


----------



## rossco

turbotime said:


> rossco said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're confusing "strong points" with "far superior"
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Jones beats Hopkins every time because he's just too naturally talented and had eye candy offence. Jones didn't age as good as Hopkins because he didn't have the technical attributes to do it. You do get me turbo? Hopkins does things in the ring that gets overlooked. His ring IQ is up there with the best of them in terms of defence and spoiling. I though he beat Calzaghe by a round or two.
Click to expand...


----------



## Primadonna Kool

rossco said:


> Prime Jones was a thing of beauty. He just lacked the technicality to fall back on when he lost a % of his outstanding reflexes. Hopkins aged better the Jones because he's technically far superior to Jones.


None of what you have just stated makes any sense. When you say technically, what on earth do you mean..?

*Motor co-ordination, reaction time, spatial awareness.*

These are all the attributes that make a athlete throw a punch or perform better than others. And these attributes are physical talents, they are all athletic ability. Bernard Hopkins has aged better than Roy Jones, and just like Roy Jones he relies on his reflexes and athletic ability. How else are you going to invade a punch, without reaction time and motor co-ordination.

*The fact of the matter is..? you don't invade the punch.*

There are plenty of fighters out there with great technical ability but they all have to retired. Because their bodies can not apply those skills any more.

Bernard Hopkins is not technically superior to Roy Jones Junior. If he was then why can he throw all these combinations, why can't he throw multiple left hooks at a time, and make them land. All these performance, take technical ability. Why does Bernard Hopkins has to constantly reset, reset whenever he throws afew punches.........because his technically ability is not as good as prime Roy Jones.

People don't know what technique is, people who are not athletically talented. Think technique is something they can do better, if they concentrate on it. Its the same kind of notion, when you get FAT people saying! That the extra weight advantage will help them later on in a fight.

Bernard Hopkins body has not degenerated as much as Roy Jones, that's all that has happened.

If his body had degenerated and aged as much as Roy Jones, he would be complete wasted.

Because this is a physical sport, its not Golf.

If this was like Golf, Larry Holmes would still be heavyweight champion.

Larry Holmes has got great technique, so why can't he come back and wipe the heavyweight division out...?

*Note:* Because technique is apart of athletic ability. Components of fitness such as reaction time, spatial awareness, motor-co-ordination, knowing where the bodies centre of mass is at a rapid rate! Is all used when you performing sporting movements. And when these athletic abilities decrease, so does the technical ability. And the fact of the matter is, Bernard Hopkins is not as good as Roy Jones Junior. Floyd Mayweather, Bernard Hopkins biggest assets are their athletic ability. People need to understand that athletic ability is not just how fast you can run, or how much weight you can lift. Its those components i have just spoken about, this is apart of athletic ability. And with their speed and power to weight ratio, just like Roy Jones Junior that's their biggest asset.

And the fact of the matter is Bernard Hopkins is not technically on the same level as Roy Jones Junior.


----------



## rossco

Primadonna Kool said:


> None of what you have just stated makes any sense. When you say technically, what on earth do you mean..?
> 
> *Motor co-ordination, reaction time, spatial awareness.*
> 
> These are all the attributes that make a athlete throw a punch or perform better than others. And these attributes are physical talents, they are all athletic ability. Bernard Hopkins has aged better than Roy Jones, and just like Roy Jones he relies on his reflexes and athletic ability. How else are you going to invade a punch, without reaction time and motor co-ordination.
> 
> *The fact of the matter is..? you don't invade the punch.*
> 
> There are plenty of fighters out there with great technical ability but they all have to retired. Because their bodies can not apply those skills any more.
> 
> Bernard Hopkins is not technically superior to Roy Jones Junior. If he was then why can he throw all these combinations, why can't he throw multiple left hooks at a time, and make them land. All these performance, take technical ability. Why does Bernard Hopkins has to constantly reset, reset whenever he throws afew punches.........because his technically ability is not as good as prime Roy Jones.
> 
> People don't know what technique is, people who are not athletically talented. Think technique is something they can do better, if they concentrate on it. Its the same kind of notion, when you get FAT people saying! That the extra weight advantage will help them later on in a fight.
> 
> Bernard Hopkins body has not degenerated as much as Roy Jones, that's all that has happened.
> 
> If his body had degenerated and aged as much as Roy Jones, he would be complete wasted.
> 
> Because this is a physical sport, its not Golf.
> 
> If this was like Golf, Larry Holmes would still be heavyweight champion.
> 
> Larry Holmes has got great technique, so why can't he come back and wipe the heavyweight division out...?
> 
> *Note:* Because technique is apart of athletic ability. Components of fitness such as reaction time, spatial awareness, motor-co-ordination, knowing where the bodies centre of mass is at a rapid rate! Is all used when you performing sporting movements. And when these athletic abilities decrease, so does the technical ability. And the fact of the matter is, Bernard Hopkins is not as good as Roy Jones Junior. Floyd Mayweather, Bernard Hopkins biggest assets are their athletic ability. People need to understand that athletic ability is not just how fast you can run, or how much weight you can lift. Its those components i have just spoken about, this is apart of athletic ability. And with their speed and power to weight ratio, just like Roy Jones Junior that's their biggest asset.
> 
> And the fact of the matter is Bernard Hopkins is not technically on the same level as Roy Jones Junior.


It's simple really PK. Why has Hopkins aged better than Jones? Jones has virtually no defence bar reflexes. He cant spoil. Why did past prime Jones get beat up by guy's old Hopkins would own and Jones himself would destroy in his athletic prime??? Jones has no defence on a technical level and this is FACT!


----------



## Primadonna Kool

rossco said:


> It's simple really PK. Why has Hopkins aged better than Jones? Jones has virtually no defence bar reflexes. He cant spoil. Why did Jones get beat up by guy's Hopkins would own and Jones himself would destroy in his athletic prime??? Jones has no defence on a technical level and this is FACT!


He has aged better because of his genetics and lifestyle.

None of what you have stated is fact, because you clearly don't have a clue what goes into making technical ability.

Technically ability is apart of athletic ability, like i have just stated in my post up above.

Why did Roy Jones get beat up by guys he would destroy in his prime..?

Because this is not Golf mate, its like Tennis.

Don't you think Roger Federer know's more than some of these fools he has been losing to. But like i stated before technically ability is, motor co-ordination, spatial awareness, reaction time, and all these attributes are ultimately what makes technical ability. Technically ability is athletic ability, you don't get one without the other.

If this was the case..

Larry Holmes would still be the heavyweight champion.

You need to understand what technical ability is, it is physiological ability.


----------



## rossco

Yes you have to have athleticism to pull off technicality but Jones wasn't as technical, he didn't master the arts Hopkins did.

Too be honest you do have a point and I understand the view your trying to put out. The fact is Hopkins learned and mastered TECHNIQUES that provides longevity at the highest level in the sport. Did Jones? As good as Jones was in his prime he relied on his reflexes and athletic gifts and when they faded he was found to be very fucking hittable when at one time he seemed untouchable. If he had the supreme technical attributes of Hopkins he would have aged much, much better. Hopkins is the vastly supreme technician to Jones and its been proven without question.


----------



## Primadonna Kool

rossco said:


> Too be honest you do have a point and I understand the view your trying to put out. The fact is Hopkins learned and mastered a TECHNIQUE that provides longevity at the highest level in the sport. Did Jones? As good as Jones was in his prime he relied on his reflexes and athletic gifts and when they faded he was found to be very fucking hittable when at one time he seemed untouchable. If he had the supreme technical attributes of Hopkins he would have aged much, much better. Hopkins is the vastly supreme technician to Jones and its been proven without question.


He has not mastered no technique, he is just doing the same thing he has always done. And physically he has not aged as much as Roy Jones Junior. Bernard Hopkins also relies on reflexes and athletic ability, and when they decrease he will be very hittable. Because technically ability is reaction time, spatial awareness, motor co-ordination, speed etc this is the only way you invade a punch mate. If i see a punch coming towards me, i have to react using *reaction time*, and then my brain must tell the muscles to contract in a specific way: *Motor co-ordination*, then i must know where i am in relation to the opponent: Spatial awareness, and then my body must realigned due to centre of mass changes: *athleticism.*

There is no other way you invade a punch or perform in sports mate, there is no magic separate thing all technique.

Deep down all technique is athletic ability. Most people don't know what athletic ability is, there's loads of sub factors that make athletic ability.

Bernard Hopkins biggest asset is his athletic ability, and the same goes for Floyd Mayweather Junior.

You are talking about Bernard Hopkins like he is a normal 49 year old man, he's not. If he was he would be completely wasted, because like i stated before this is not GOLF, its like Tennis.

And most people don't know the true extent to athletic ability.

Bernard Hopkins is not superior to Roy Jones Junior. Beating afew retarded light heavyweights such as Jean Pascal and Cloud, don't prove that you are technically superior to Roy Jones Junior.

Bernard Hopkins not biologically aging as much as Roy Jones, and maintaining his physical capabilities is the main reason he is still active.

Here he is talking about his biggest asset his athletic ability, which ultimately when you understand what athletic ability is..? is technically ability aswell.

*Note:* This is not Golf mate.






Teddy Atlas sums it up here..


----------



## rossco

Primadonna Kool said:


> He has not mastered no technique, he is just doing the same thing he has always done. And physically he has not aged as much as Roy Jones Junior. Bernard Hopkins also relies on reflexes and athletic ability, and when they decrease he will be very hittable. Because technically ability is reaction time, spatial awareness, motor co-ordination, speed etc this is the only way you invade a punch mate. If i see a punch coming towards me, i have to react using *reaction time*, and then my brain must tell the muscles to contract in a specific way: *Motor co-ordination*, then i must know where i am in relation to the opponent: Spatial awareness, and then my body must realigned due to centre of mass changes: *athleticism.*
> 
> There is no other way you invade a punch or perform in sports mate, there is no magic separate thing all technique.
> 
> Deep down all technique is athletic ability. Most people don't know what athletic ability is, there's loads of sub factors that make athletic ability.
> 
> Bernard Hopkins biggest asset is his athletic ability, and the same goes for Floyd Mayweather Junior.
> 
> You are talking about Bernard Hopkins like he is a normal 49 year old man, he's not. If he was he would be completely wasted, because like i stated before this is not GOLF, its like Tennis.
> 
> And most people don't know the true extent to athletic ability.
> 
> Bernard Hopkins is not superior to Roy Jones Junior. Beating afew retarded light heavyweights such as Jean Pascal and Cloud, don't prove that you are technically superior to Roy Jones Junior.
> 
> Bernard Hopkins not biologically aging as much as Roy Jones, and maintaining his physical capabilities is the main reason he is still active.
> 
> Here he is talking about his biggest asset his athletic ability, which ultimately when you understand what athletic ability is..? is technically ability aswell.
> 
> *Note:* This is not Golf mate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teddy Atlas sums it up here..


I actually don't know what to make of this :huh:rofl

Hopkins refined his technique in the gym combined with the athletic ability he was born with. His athletic ability was no where near as good as Jones so his technique has been refined into a masterful art superior to Jones who didn't need to he was that athletic. Its subtle things as well as fundamentals like blocking and parrying. Jones is garbage at blocking and parrying shots. Hopkins is a very crafty defensive fighter so the combination of everything makes his longevity at the highest level superior to Jones. It's as clear as day PK.

Everybody loves Roy Jones mate.


----------



## Powerpuncher

rossco said:


> I actually don't know what to make of this :huh:rofl
> 
> Hopkins refined his technique in the gym combined with the athletic ability he was born with. His athletic ability was no where near as good as Jones so his technique has been refined into a masterful art superior to Jones who didn't need to he was that athletic. Its subtle things as well as fundamentals like blocking and parrying. Jones is garbage at blocking and parrying shots. Hopkins is a very crafty defensive fighter so the combination of everything makes his longevity at the highest level superior to Jones. It's as clear as day PK.
> 
> Everybody loves Roy Jones mate.


All this athletic talk is a little off, yes Jones was faster and more athletic, but he had an incredible level of skill. Those skills, like punch slipping with low hands, leading left hands, combination punching took much more athleticism no doubt. But they're still skills, ones that Hopkins never mastered in the same way. Hopkins boxing is much more energy efficient and needs less speed to master, that doesn't necessarily make it more skilled. Hopkins also maintained his athletic ability to be much nearer his peak than Jones through his dedication. He's much more tactical too and cheats more. Jones pretty much tries to pull off most of the moves he could in his prime and fails.


----------



## Primadonna Kool

Powerpuncher said:


> All this athletic talk is a little off, yes Jones was faster and more athletic, but he had an incredible level of skill. Those skills, like punch slipping with low hands, leading left hands, combination punching took much more athleticism no doubt. But they're still skills, ones that Hopkins never mastered in the same way. Hopkins boxing is much more energy efficient and needs less speed to master, that doesn't necessarily make it more skilled. Hopkins also maintained his athletic ability to be much nearer his peak than Jones through his dedication. He's much more tactical too and cheats more. Jones pretty much tries to pull off most of the moves he could in his prime and fails.


Bernard Hopkins is less skilled than Roy Jones, if he was more skilled than Roy Jones he would be able to duplicate Roy Jones moves, with the same speed and accuracy. Saying that Bernard Hopkins is technically superior to Roy Jones is like saying the formula one cars of the 70's are technically superior to the formula one cars of today. Athletic ability is technical ability, that's what people need to understand. I am doing a degree in Exercise science and we learn about these things.


----------



## conradically

rossco said:


> It's simple really PK. Why has Hopkins aged better than Jones? Jones has virtually no defence bar reflexes. He cant spoil. Why did past prime Jones get beat up by guy's old Hopkins would own and Jones himself would destroy in his athletic prime??? Jones has no defence on a technical level and this is FACT!


his reflex-based defense was highly technical. How else to describe it?

It happened to be a highly technical defense that also required perfect execution. When age caught up with Roy, he could no longer execute this type of defense.

Bernard's defense, also technical, works at a lower speed of operation.


----------



## conradically

Primadonna Kool said:


> Bernard Hopkins is less skilled than Roy Jones, if he was more skilled than Roy Jones he would be able to duplicate Roy Jones moves, with the same speed and accuracy. Saying that Bernard Hopkins is technically superior to Roy Jones is like saying the formula one cars of the 70's are technically superior to the formula one cars of today. *Athletic ability is technical ability*, that's what people need to understand. I am doing a degree in Exercise science and we learn about these things.


The error people make is in assuming that athletic and technical ability are independent. They're not. You can't neatly separate these two things. Roy's technical and athletic ability are connected. When the athletic ability faltered so did the technical ability.


----------



## Primadonna Kool

rossco said:


> I actually don't know what to make of this :huh:rofl
> 
> Hopkins refined his technique in the gym combined with the athletic ability he was born with. His athletic ability was no where near as good as Jones so his technique has been refined into a masterful art superior to Jones who didn't need to he was that athletic. Its subtle things as well as fundamentals like blocking and parrying. Jones is garbage at blocking and parrying shots. Hopkins is a very crafty defensive fighter so the combination of everything makes his longevity at the highest level superior to Jones. It's as clear as day PK.
> 
> Everybody loves Roy Jones mate.


Bernard Hopkins has clearly stated that his physical condition and biological shape has always been his biggest asset and his back bone. Without his physiological capabilities, there will be no technical ability. You don't understand what technical ability is, you think its something separate from athletic ability. You don't get technical ability without athletic ability, the components of fitness such as speed, reaction time, agility, spatial awareness, motor-co-ordination, and knowing where the bodies centre of mass is i.e forget the correct term, are all components of fitness that effect technical ability. If Bernard Hopkins superior technically to Roy Jones Junior, right now he would be wiping out his opponents. But the fact of the matter is, he is not wiping out his opponents he is hustling to a points victory almost every time against basic retarded opponents.

1.Saying that Bernard Hopkins is technically superior to Roy Jones is like saying the formula one cars of the 70's are technically superior to the formula one cars of today. Bernard Hopkins does clearly not process information as fast as a prime Roy Jones Junior, this is shown in his inability to throw combinations, and how he constantly has to grab and hold or reset before he performs his next move.

2. Bernard Hopkins defence now, and at any point in his career was not as good as a Prime Roy Jones Juniors: Like a Olympic gymnast athlete Roy Jones could invade punches from whatever angle he wanted, this takes superior technical skills such as adjusting body alignment in a split second.

What does Bernard Hopkins do most of the time..? He will grab and hold, because he does not processes that superior technically ability to the level of Prime Roy Jones Junior. There are levels of biomechances and motor co-ordination, which have not been comprehended by Bernard Hopkin's brain or muscle firing patterns.

I think Bernard Hopkins longevity is more to do with his biological condition, that some sort of superior ability to block and parry shots.

Block and parry..? :lol:

Bernard Hopkins is not technically superior to Roy Jones Junior. This statement makes no sense, this is like saying Bernard Hopkins is a more evolved fighter. He is not more evolved when he can only performance basic moves, the fundamentals. This is like saying a Olympic gymnastic athlete who can perform a forward roll at 70 years old, better than a former Olympic fall champion! Is technically superior.

Show me the video tapes as to where Bernard Hopkins is technically superior..? Show me the combinations, show me the spatial awareness, speed of information processing, motor co-ordination..? Show me this footage.

Show me the footage! as to where Bernard Hopkins prime for prime displayed superior technical/athletic ability............"Because they are both intertwined".


----------



## Primadonna Kool

conradically said:


> The error people make is in assuming that athletic and technical ability are independent. They're not. You can't neatly separate these two things. Roy's technical and athletic ability are connected. When the athletic ability faltered so did the technical ability.


I agree.

That's why i keep stating that boxing is not Golf, its like Tennis.

And if Athletic and technically ability are totally independent, then Larry Holmes would still be heavyweight champion.

You don't get one without the other, and Bernard Hopkins greatest asset his back bone and base! Is his athletic ability, which helps him apply his skills.

His athletic ability has been decreasing, probably why he is unable to stop retarded opponents. His motor-co-ordination, spatial awareness, reaction time, adjusting bodies centre of mass, agility, information processing all physiological abilities, all athletic ability.

Once his athletic ability degenerates to the point as Roy Jones, he is a sitting ducked waiting for a beat down.

It happened to the best of them, Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammad Ali.

Are people trying to tell me that Bernard Hopkins was technically superior to Sugar Ray Leonard.

:lol: pathetic.

Bernard Hopkins has maintained his biological shape better than others, and fairplay to him.

Note: Bernard Hopkins is not doing anything we have not seen before, he's not throwing combinations at a faster speed and with more accuracy than ever seen before, there has been no point in his career where ANYBODY has stated this. But during Roy Jones Prime, we saw things that we had never seen before technically, and we have not seen since. Because he was ahead of his time, like the Egyptian pyramids. You have all these unathletic people trying to make themselves feel better, by saying he did not know the fundamentals or have technically ability....:lol: what blocking and parrying..? :lol:

Grabbing and holding..? :lol:


----------



## conradically

rossco said:


> I actually don't know what to make of this :huh:rofl
> 
> Hopkins refined his technique in the gym combined with the athletic ability he was born with. His athletic ability was no where near as good as Jones so his technique has been refined into a masterful art superior to *Jones who didn't need to he was that athletic*. Its subtle things as well as fundamentals like blocking and parrying. Jones is garbage at blocking and parrying shots. Hopkins is a very crafty defensive fighter so the combination of everything makes his longevity at the highest level superior to Jones. It's as clear as day PK.
> 
> Everybody loves Roy Jones mate.


Jones' defense wasn't about blocking or parrying shots, it was about avoiding them. How is avoiding shots any less "technical" than parrying them?

Pernell Whitaker also used head movement primarily for defense, was he not "technical".


----------



## Primadonna Kool

conradically said:


> his reflex-based defense was highly technical. How else to describe it?
> 
> It happened to be a highly technical defense that also required perfect execution. When age caught up with Roy, he could no longer execute this type of defense.
> 
> Bernard's defense, also technical, works at a lower speed of operation.


You are very a astute and clinical with your points.

You must be a left brained thinker.

This is a great way you have described Hopkins & Jones styles.

Stating that Bernard Hopkins is superior to Roy Jones is like stating that a Sega Mega Drive is more superior than a Play Station.

Bernard Hopkins does all of these components of skill: Information processing,spatial awareness, body adjustments to centre of mass changes, reaction time, motor-co-ordination at a slower, and less complicated rate than Prime Roy Jones Junior. There has been no point in Bernard Hopkins career, where he has approach anywhere near the type of ability of Model PRJ: Prime Roy Jones Junior.


----------



## turbotime

This is fucking awesome.


----------



## MAG1965

conradically said:


> The error people make is in assuming that athletic and technical ability are independent. They're not. You can't neatly separate these two things. Roy's technical and athletic ability are connected. When the athletic ability faltered so did the technical ability.


the incredible thing about Roy is that he was so quick he didn't need to do everything technically correct. No one whom he fought previous to Tarver (some say Griffin) really exposed a weakness in him. He could have had the fastest hands in boxing history. Greatest fighter? no, but his handspeed would have given anyone problems, including Sugar Ray Robinson or Marvin Hagler.


----------



## rossco

Primadonna Kool said:


> Bernard Hopkins has clearly stated that his physical condition and biological shape has always been his biggest asset and his back bone. Without his physiological capabilities, there will be no technical ability. You don't understand what technical ability is, you think its something separate from athletic ability. You don't get technical ability without athletic ability, the components of fitness such as speed, reaction time, agility, spatial awareness, motor-co-ordination, and knowing where the bodies centre of mass is i.e forget the correct term, are all components of fitness that effect technical ability. If Bernard Hopkins superior technically to Roy Jones Junior, right now he would be wiping out his opponents. But the fact of the matter is, he is not wiping out his opponents he is hustling to a points victory almost every time against basic retarded opponents.
> 
> 1.Saying that Bernard Hopkins is technically superior to Roy Jones is like saying the formula one cars of the 70's are technically superior to the formula one cars of today. Bernard Hopkins does clearly not process information as fast as a prime Roy Jones Junior, this is shown in his inability to throw combinations, and how he constantly has to grab and hold or reset before he performs his next move.
> 
> 2. Bernard Hopkins defence now, and at any point in his career was not as good as a Prime Roy Jones Juniors: Like a Olympic gymnast athlete Roy Jones could invade punches from whatever angle he wanted, this takes superior technical skills such as adjusting body alignment in a split second.
> 
> What does Bernard Hopkins do most of the time..? He will grab and hold, because he does not processes that superior technically ability to the level of Prime Roy Jones Junior. There are levels of biomechances and motor co-ordination, which have not been comprehended by Bernard Hopkin's brain or muscle firing patterns.
> 
> I think Bernard Hopkins longevity is more to do with his biological condition, that some sort of superior ability to block and parry shots.
> 
> Block and parry..? :lol:
> 
> Bernard Hopkins is not technically superior to Roy Jones Junior. This statement makes no sense, this is like saying Bernard Hopkins is a more evolved fighter. He is not more evolved when he can only performance basic moves, the fundamentals. This is like saying a Olympic gymnastic athlete who can perform a forward roll at 70 years old, better than a former Olympic fall champion! Is technically superior.
> 
> Show me the video tapes as to where Bernard Hopkins is technically superior..? Show me the combinations, show me the spatial awareness, speed of information processing, motor co-ordination..? Show me this footage.
> 
> Show me the footage! as to where Bernard Hopkins prime for prime displayed superior technical/athletic ability............"Because they are both intertwined".


Hopkins and Jones both are clearly not as athletic as they were in their primes. The reason Hopkins can still compete with the elite guys is because he has the technique to do it. Jones doesn't have the technique to age well.
You may mock me for bringing up blocking and parrying but if Jones had mastered those fundamentals he wouldn't be getting sparked by the likes of Tarver.


----------



## rossco

turbotime said:


> This is fucking awesome.


72 pages and still producing the goods :lol:


----------



## Bogotazo

rossco said:


> Hopkins and Jones both are clearly not as athletic as they were in their primes. The reason Hopkins can still compete with the elite guys is because he has the technique to do it. Jones doesn't have the technique to age well.
> You may mock me for bringing up blocking and parrying but if Jones had mastered those fundamentals he wouldn't be getting sparked by the likes of Tarver.


There comes a point where a fighter is so gone, no amount of fundamentals will save them. B-Hop has tons of tricks, but he's also preserved himself well. He's a case of technical brilliance, but also biological perseverance. Hopkins can execute (no pun intended) his skills because his body responds how he expects it to. Jones's decline was rapid, it's not likely any re-tooling in advance would have saved him from losing to the fighters he lost to. Look at James Toney; aside from getting caught at the very end, Jones far outdid Toney against Ledbedev despite most thinking Toney is the more technically gifted and the fact Jones had been stopped numerous times, with nothing more than some leftover speed and his smarts.



conradically said:


> The error people make is in assuming that athletic and technical ability are independent. They're not. You can't neatly separate these two things. Roy's technical and athletic ability are connected. When the athletic ability faltered so did the technical ability.


Yep.


----------



## Primadonna Kool

rossco said:


> Hopkins and Jones both are clearly not as athletic as they were in their primes. The reason Hopkins can still compete with the elite guys is because he has the technique to do it. Jones doesn't have the technique to age well.
> You may mock me for bringing up blocking and parrying but if Jones had mastered those fundamentals he wouldn't be getting sparked by the likes of Tarver.


Bernard Hopkins athleticism has not dis-creased as much as Roy Jones. Roy Jones does not even move anymore, he is a stationary target where as Bernard Hopkins movement and agility, using spatial awareness is still a massive tactic of his. They have not aged at the same rate, anybody with eye's on their performances can see this. Roy Jones can't even make 175 any-more, and has been coming in fat at Cruiser weight at times.

Like i stated before Bernard Hopkins greatest asset is his athleticism, because athleticism if you understand what it is. Its like the technology inside your body that helps you apply skills, its like the computer chip inside the computer. Understand motor co-ordination, muscle firing patterns, centre of mass, reaction time etc the list goes on. And Bernard Hopkins athleticsm, has not decreased at the same rate or as much as Roy Jones.

If this is the case, if you think they have decreased and age at the same rate, that means 20 years ago Bernard Hopkins was better. How Come Bernard Hopkins at any point in his career, has not been as fast, accurate, devastating offensively, a better combination puncher as Roy Jones..? How come their is not any video footage of Bernard Hopkins displaying this superior ability..? How come Bernard Hopkins was NEVER ever considered pound for pound number 1..?

"I will tell you why, because he was never better than Roy Jones technically. Roy Jones was considered the best boxer in the world skill for skill for almost over 1 decade, if Bernard Hopkin's was superior how come nobody even mentioned him in the same light. I will go and get you the video footage where Bernard Hopkins has even stated that James Toney was more talented than himself. And Bernard Hopkins constantly gives himself credit for maintaining and his biologically shape as one of his biggest asset"

So the reason Bernard Hopkins can still compete on a higher level is because like i stated before biologically he has not aged as fast as Roy Jones, if he did age as fast. He would be struggling to make 175 just like Roy Jones, he would be a stationary target just like Roy Jones. Bernard Hopkins was never technically superior to Roy Jones, his offence and defence both performed a slower and less complicated rate than Roy Jones, as seen in video footage.

You have stated that Roy Jones does not have the technique to age well. Again none of this makes any sense, and it shows to me that you don't have a clue what physiology or biological is. Bernard Hopkins has paid credit to his diet, and exercise lifestyle as the biggest factor in his ageing process. Exercise stimulate gene expression, nutrition stimulate gene expression and gives the body what it needs to regeneration and detox.

Larry Holmes clearly had a better technique than all heavyweights around today, but he is not around today because. His athleticism has decreased, which is the computer chip-inside your body that helps you applie your skills. You need to understand that this is no Golf, it like Tennis. Bernard Hopkins has maintained his athleticism due to the factors i have stated better than others. He is not superior to Roy Jones Junior, he is not superior to Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Ray Robinson. Just like i can look back and watch video footage of Carl Lewis messing guys up over 100m, 200m and long jump. There is no video footage of Bernard Hopkins at any point in his career, doing things that no other fighter has done even faster and better. At no point in his career has he been consider skill for skill pound for pound the best fighter in the world, because he is not superior technically.


----------



## rossco

Bogotazo said:


> There comes a point where a fighter is so gone, no amount of fundamentals will save them. B-Hop has tons of tricks, but he's also preserved himself well. He's a case of technical brilliance, but also biological perseverance. Hopkins can execute (no pun intended) his skills because his body responds how he expects it to. Jones's decline was rapid, it's not likely any re-tooling in advance would have saved him from losing to the fighters he lost to. Look at James Toney; aside from getting caught at the very end, Jones far outdid Toney against Ledbedev despite most thinking Toney is the more technically gifted and the fact Jones had been stopped numerous times, with nothing more than some leftover speed and his smarts.
> 
> Yep.


I'm trolling a tad here mate. I got savaged over on ESB a couple of years ago when talking about the same subject so I know it gets the backs up :lol:. I totally understand what conradically and PK mean when talking about athleticism and technique being intertwined and cant exist without each other. I'm just an ignorant cunt :yep
Jones had a far riskier style to Hopkins so a decline in his reflexes should have been a sign for him to get the fuck out of the sport years ago. In his prime he was almost untouchable and rarely got hit but the guy can hardly string a coherent sentence nowadays . All that damage was done past his prime.


----------



## rossco

Primadonna Kool said:


> Bernard Hopkins athleticism has not dis-creased as much as Roy Jones. Roy Jones does not even move anymore, he is a stationary target where as Bernard Hopkins movement and agility, using spatial awareness is still a massive tactic of his. They have not aged at the same rate, anybody with eye's on their performances can see this. Roy Jones can't even make 175 any-more, and has been coming in fat at Cruiser weight at times.
> 
> Like i stated before Bernard Hopkins greatest asset is his athleticism, because athleticism if you understand what it is. Its like the technology inside your body that helps you apply skills, its like the computer chip inside the computer. Understand motor co-ordination, muscle firing patterns, centre of mass, reaction time etc the list goes on. And Bernard Hopkins athleticsm, has not decreased at the same rate or as much as Roy Jones.
> 
> If this is the case, if you think they have decreased and age at the same rate, that means 20 years ago Bernard Hopkins was better. How Come Bernard Hopkins at any point in his career, has not been as fast, accurate, devastating offensively, a better combination puncher as Roy Jones..? How come their is not any video footage of Bernard Hopkins displaying this superior ability..? How come Bernard Hopkins was NEVER ever considered pound for pound number 1..?
> 
> "I will tell you why, because he was never better than Roy Jones technically. Roy Jones was considered the best boxer in the world skill for skill for almost over 1 decade, if Bernard Hopkin's was superior how come nobody even mentioned him in the same light. I will go and get you the video footage where Bernard Hopkins has even stated that James Toney was more talented than himself. And Bernard Hopkins constantly gives himself credit for maintaining and his biologically shape as one of his biggest asset"
> 
> So the reason Bernard Hopkins can still compete on a higher level is because like i stated before biologically he has not aged as fast as Roy Jones, if he did age as fast. He would be struggling to make 175 just like Roy Jones, he would be a stationary target just like Roy Jones. Bernard Hopkins was never technically superior to Roy Jones, his offence and defence both performed a slower and less complicated rate than Roy Jones, as seen in video footage.
> 
> You have stated that Roy Jones does not have the technique to age well. Again none of this makes any sense, and it shows to me that you don't have a clue what physiology or biological is. Bernard Hopkins has paid credit to his diet, and exercise lifestyle as the biggest factor in his ageing process. Exercise stimulate gene expression, nutrition stimulate gene expression and gives the body what it needs to regeneration and detox.
> 
> Larry Holmes clearly had a better technique than all heavyweights around today, but he is not around today because. His athleticism has decreased, which is the computer chip-inside your body that helps you applie your skills. You need to understand that this is no Golf, it like Tennis. Bernard Hopkins has maintained his athleticism due to the factors i have stated better than others. He is not superior to Roy Jones Junior, he is not superior to Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Ray Robinson. Just like i can look back and watch video footage of Carl Lewis messing guys up over 100m, 200m and long jump. There is no video footage of Bernard Hopkins at any point in his career, doing things that no other fighter has done even faster and better. At no point in his career has he been consider skill for skill pound for pound the best fighter in the world, because he is not superior technically.


:rofl Fuck sake PK, Your like a more intelligent, creative version of Craney.

Everybody loves Roy Jones but this is some serious man love you sport for RJJ. How do you think he would do in better era's against better fighters? Is there a past fighter you feel could be a stylistic nightmare for Roy?


----------



## Primadonna Kool

rossco said:


> :rofl Fuck sake PK, Your like a more intelligent, creative version of Craney.
> 
> Everybody loves Roy Jones but this is some serious man love you sport for RJJ. How do you think he would do in better era's against better fighters? Is there a past fighter you feel could be a stylistic nightmare for Roy?


In his prime and in their prime's, Joe Calzaghe would be a challenge for him and possibly Chris Eubank. All these components of athleticism/technical skills i spoke about Joe Calzaghe could also operate in a similar fashion. He was not as potent or as powerful as Roy Jones but that's because physically Joe Calzaghe was like a 800m/1500m athlete. To challenge Roy Jones, you need to some how need to compete with him on a physiological level. Sometimes in boxing you get athletes with physiological ability of motor co-ordination, but they have poor spatial awareness, or poor agility. Athleticism can be broken down in my sub areas, which help you apply you're skills, its the computer chip inside the body. That's why somebody like Jean Pascal, looks like he has all the physiological gear. But when you watch his fights he is abit of a retard. Joe Calzaghe had good motor co-ordination, spatial awareness, reaction time, knowing centre of mass etc and he had a immense work-rate, and speed. And in all these area's Joe Calzaghe was way above being good, even guys like Andre Ward are nothing special in these area's that's why they constantly have to hold.

I think Roy Jones would beat Joe Calzaghe but it would not be easy.

Michael Watson, Steve Collins, Nigel Benn would all be destroyed by Roy Jones.

One thing that i feel allot of fighters lack these days is information processing speed, and reaction time to biofeedback. Fighters these days constantly seem to be resetting and stalling, especially in the heavyweight division.

This is not even a great heavyweight fight, but you can visibly see he speed of these guys processing information. Your muscles and limbs have sensors, which take in information all the the time. And that's how your brain knows where to adjust the body, and change body alignment. In general fighters just seem incredibly rehearsed and choreographed/retarded.

In my opinion this ability sometimes is what separates the good from the great. They may be better athletes, but they just see things or see into the future much better..........they are just ahead of you.

Again not a great fight but, you can almost see the speed of thought.

Abit off topic....


----------



## FelixTrinidad

turbotime said:


> This is fucking awesome.


Great thread Turbo.

I sort of wish Bailey will go against you just to bump this thread forever. That guy probably already read your thread though and self raged.:lol:


----------



## Primadonna Kool

Deleted post.


----------



## rossco

Primadonna Kool said:


> In his prime and in their prime's, Joe Calzaghe would be a challenge for him and possibly Chris Eubank. All these components of athleticism/technical skills i spoke about Joe Calzaghe could also operate in a similar fashion. He was not as potent or as powerful as Roy Jones but that's because physically Joe Calzaghe was like a 800m/1500m athlete. To challenge Roy Jones, you need to some how need to compete with him on a physiological level. Sometimes in boxing you get athletes with physiological ability of motor co-ordination, but they have poor spatial awareness, or poor agility. Athleticism can be broken down in my sub areas, which help you apply you're skills, its the computer chip inside the body. That's why somebody like Jean Pascal, looks like he has all the physiological gear. But when you watch his fights he is abit of a retard. Joe Calzaghe had good motor co-ordination, spatial awareness, reaction time, knowing centre of mass etc and he had a immense work-rate, and speed. And in all these area's Joe Calzaghe was way above being good, even guys like Andre Ward are nothing special in these area's that's why they constantly have to hold.
> 
> I think Roy Jones would beat Joe Calzaghe but it would not be easy.
> 
> Michael Watson, Steve Collins, Nigel Benn would all be destroyed by Roy Jones.


Calzaghe was athletic in an awkward way. He had outstanding stamina and recovery levels. He did have fights where he didn't look great against B class guys but he always knew how to win and win clear. Yeah I also feel Calzaghe would be a problem for prime Jones. I would pick prime Jones via competitive UD though.

Nah, Eubank was too stiff and open for Jones. He would get fucked up over 12 vs prime Jones imo. The rest I agree with.


----------



## Bogotazo

rossco said:


> I'm trolling a tad here mate. I got savaged over on ESB a couple of years ago when talking about the same subject so I know it gets the backs up :lol:. I totally understand what conradically and PK mean when talking about athleticism and technique being intertwined and cant exist without each other. I'm just an ignorant cunt :yep
> Jones had a far riskier style to Hopkins so a decline in his reflexes should have been a sign for him to get the fuck out of the sport years ago. In his prime he was almost untouchable and rarely got hit but the guy can hardly string a coherent sentence nowadays . All that damage was done past his prime.


:thumbsup


----------



## MAG1965

I have to add, one fight I always wanted to see was Roy Jones vs. Michael Nunn at 168, even when Michael got a little older. I thought he still could be trouble for Roy. His southpaw style and speed were still there, and by 168 he was setting down on his punches and punching a little harder. And Michael was a big man. I don't know if he could land on Roy, but I thought his style had a good chance for trouble for Roy- more then the guys Roy was fighting at the time. Stylistically Roy might have had trouble against Michael Nunn. .


----------



## turbotime

MAG1965 said:


> I have to add, one fight I always wanted to see was Roy Jones vs. Michael Nunn at 168, even when Michael got a little older. I thought he still could be trouble for Roy. His southpaw style and speed were still there, and by 168 he was setting down on his punches and punching a little harder. And Michael was a big man. I don't know if he could land on Roy, but I thought his style had a good chance for trouble for Roy- more then the guys Roy was fighting at the time. Stylistically Roy might have had trouble against Michael Nunn. .


Nunn is stopped.


----------



## el mosquito

Golovkingreatestever said:


> Rigo's greatness *was stolen from us by Castro* and now Ken Hershman, history will be very kind to Rigo.


don't take this personally but it was Castro's superb athletic program that honed and brought up Rigo into the fighter he is today you dumb shit


----------



## Mohak

Depends on what your criteria for greatness is really. For natural god given talent he is certainly up there. But his legacy is lacking due to elite level wins outside of the likes of Toney and Hopkins. But, can you hold that directly against him that he was in his prime in a mostly hollow era. People will remember RJJ for his natural ability and that he jumped up in weight classes and won multiple titles. Not a bad thing, not a good thing. Just how he'll be remembered.


----------



## turbotime




----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


>


:lol:

Gaaaaay.


----------



## turbotime




----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


>


He's admittedly up there. It's still the same old top five for me in no particular order: Roy, Pea, Dooran, SRL, Robbo.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> He's admittedly up there. It's still the same old top five for me in no particular order: Roy, Pea, Dooran, SRL, Robbo.


I love the Rob hate :lol: Admittedly Id go Duran > May

Who wins at more weight classes?


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I love the Rob hate :lol: Admittedly Id go Duran > May


Bout fuckin time.



> Who wins at more weight classes?


Floyd wins at 154. I hate LMW Duran. Not because he wasn't still good, but just levels below what he was. He didn't care no more. I'd still pick Floyd though even if Duran comes in perfectly motivated; his agility declined pretty badly.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Bout fuckin time.
> 
> Floyd wins at 154. I hate LMW Duran. Not because he wasn't still good, but just levels below what he was. He didn't care no more. I'd still pick Floyd though even if Duran comes in perfectly motivated; his agility declined pretty badly.


Duran at 130 vs Floyd? Yeah? Tough sell.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Duran at 130 vs Floyd? Yeah? Tough sell.


That Floyd wins? Not really. Duran was actually a bit crude to me through most the early-mid 1970s. He became a defensive master and counterpunching wizard around half way through his LW reign and peaked '76-'80. DeJesus III, Palomino and SRL I was him at his zenith.


----------



## DudeGuyMan

Mohak said:


> Depends on what your criteria for greatness is really. For natural god given talent he is certainly up there. But his legacy is lacking due to elite level wins outside of the likes of Toney and Hopkins. But, can you hold that directly against him that he was in his prime in a mostly hollow era. People will remember RJJ for his natural ability and that he jumped up in weight classes and won multiple titles. Not a bad thing, not a good thing. Just how he'll be remembered.


Hopkins, Toney, and a heavyweight belt in Ruiz are a hell of a good three wins though.


----------



## Hands of Iron

DudeGuyMan said:


> Hopkins, Toney, and a heavyweight belt in Ruiz are a hell of a good three wins though.


It's definitely proper validation for him.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> That Floyd wins? Not really. Duran was actually a bit crude to me through most the early-mid 1970s. He became a defensive master and counterpunching wizard around half way through his LW reign and peaked '76-'80. DeJesus III, Palomino and SRL I was him at his zenith.


I meant the reverse :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I meant the reverse :lol:


O


----------



## turbotime

Love the honesty, as always <3


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Love the honesty, as always <3


Reciprocation is nice


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

Primadonna Kool said:


>


The downhill portion of his career shown in that video, damn that always me makes me feel sad. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to concede that Roy Jones would beat Monzon and he's the greatest ever. 
Although, SRR is the man to contend with him. I feel that SRR gets hit a little too much by power punches, and as his career went on, SRR actually relied more and more on the fact that his power kept almost all dudes shy from throwing more punches, the angles and combinations of SRR in unexpected times didn't help the matter for them as much. 
SRR in the latter part of his career became a victim of his style and size. Particularly hit by losing prime. Some fighters styles can weather the storm, SRR couldn't have done it much better - maybe if he wasn't such a train wreck in the last portions of his career post-Turpin, he could have done a decent enough job.

Prime for prime, RJJ was the more invincible from a H2H perspective.


----------



## turbotime

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> The downhill portion of his career shown in that video, damn that always me makes me feel sad.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I have to concede that Roy Jones would beat Monzon and he's the greatest ever.
> Although, SRR is the man to contend with him. I feel that SRR gets hit a little too much by power punches, and as his career went on, SRR actually relied more and more on the fact that his power kept almost all dudes shy from throwing more punches, the angles and combinations of SRR in unexpected times didn't help the matter for them as much.
> SRR in the latter part of his career became a victim of his style and size. Particularly hit by losing prime. Some fighters styles can weather the storm, SRR couldn't have done it much better - maybe if he wasn't such a train wreck in the last portions of his career post-Turpin, he could have done a decent enough job.
> 
> Prime for prime, RJJ was the more invincible from a H2H perspective.


:good post

I'd love to see Monzon in with say, James Toney!


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul

turbotime said:


> :good post
> 
> I'd love to see Monzon in with say, James Toney!


I am saying Roy Jones, but literally a narrow decision win - Monzon is going to make Jones dig to the deepest bowels of hell for the victory. Roy was just GOAT. 
Monzon would school Toney.

I watched a few rounds of RJJ vs Hopkins and I couldn't hack the boredom. If you scored the fight, what did you score the fight?


----------



## VG_Addict

What if Jones fought Benn, Eubank, Collins, Michalczewski, and Rocchigiani?


----------



## dyna

VG_Addict said:


> What if Jones fought Benn, Eubank, Collins, Michalczewski, and Rocchigiani?


Don't get me mad cuz I'm amped already
Took titles from fighters who was champs already
The heart and soul of boxing on HBO
What these other fighters take me fo? A joke?
Ah y'all musta forgot! ....
*And they got the nerve to say I ain't fight nobody
I just make 'em look like nobody*
Y'all musta forgot! ....


----------



## Hands of Iron

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I am saying Roy Jones, but literally a narrow decision win - Monzon is going to make Jones dig to the deepest bowels of hell for the victory. Roy was just GOAT.
> Monzon would school Toney.
> 
> I watched a few rounds of RJJ vs Hopkins and I couldn't hack the boredom. If you scored the fight, what did you score the fight?


9-3 Roy.

Incredibly dull fight for his standards, far too tentative especially the first half. Had nothing of the zest of the Toney performance, which was about a year-and-a-half later though to be fair.


----------



## Hands of Iron

dyna said:


> Don't get me mad cuz I'm amped already
> Took titles from fighters who was champs already
> The heart and soul of boxing on HBO
> What these other fighters take me fo? A joke?
> Ah y'all musta forgot! ....
> *And they got the nerve to say I ain't fight nobody
> I just make 'em look like nobody*
> Y'all musta forgot! ....







Looks like he's just done a couple of lines in that video still FFS. @the cobra

Roy was dressed up for HBO that night too.


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> Looks like he's just done a couple of lines in that video still FFS. @the cobra
> 
> Roy was dressed up for HBO that night too.


I can't believe how Jacobs managed to go the distance with Pernell that night.
He has a mixed reputation here and isn't liked by some but that was well done.
Jewish as well.That'll probably make it more of a surprise to you!:lol:


----------



## Bill Jincock

Didn't just go the distance.He made Whitaker look like shit.

Though it is probably more accurate to say it was mainly the coke making Whitaker look like shit by that point.:yep


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> I can't believe how Jacobs managed to go the distance with Pernell that night.
> He has a mixed reputation here and isn't liked by some but that was well done.
> *Jewish as well.* That'll probably make it more of a surprise to you!:lol:


Ohhh you :lol:


----------



## Blanco

I also feel Roy is the greatest fighter I have ever seen......He was so great and dominant that I couldn't be a fan of the dude cause his greatness left no room for "relatability" for an average joe like me to be a supporter of his.


----------



## PityTheFool

Hands of Iron said:


> Ohhh you :lol:


Maybe get another half a day at most out of it.:good


----------



## El-Terrible

Greatest of all time may be a stretch, but he's certainly the best in the last 25 years IMO.


----------



## Mr Magic

El-Terrible said:


> Greatest of all time may be a stretch, but he's certainly the best in the last 25 years IMO.


Better than Sweet Pea and Mayweather?

I think not.


----------



## dyna

Mr Magic said:


> Better than Sweet Pea and Mayweather?
> 
> I think not.


Certainly better than Mayweather.
Not even up for debate really.


----------



## tommygun711

Mr Magic said:


> Better than Sweet Pea and Mayweather?
> 
> I think not.


better than mayweather sure, Roy was better prime for prime IMO and I think he had the better top wins.

Whitaker may or may not be ranked over Roy, they are probably pretty close


----------



## Hands of Iron

PityTheFool said:


> Maybe get another half a day at most out of it.:good


:lol:

Can't say I really mind

('Cause I'm horrible like that)


----------



## Someguy101

Prime RJJ was a phenom. Nothing like him. 

Only wish he was around in the HD era then the world would appreciate his greatness.....


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> He's admittedly up there. It's still the same old top five for me in no particular order: Roy, Pea, Dooran, SRL, Robbo.


I'm a little disappointed that Ali isn't in there if you are going by abilities/primes


----------



## turbotime

Mr Magic said:


> Better than Sweet Pea and Mayweather?
> 
> I think not.


:sad5


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> I'm a little disappointed that Ali isn't in there if you are going by abilities/primes


None of these fighters got arguably beaten by someone on the level of Doug Jones on their way up.

Unofficial Scorecards:

AP: 5-4-1 Jones
UPI: 6-3-1 Clay
Long Beach Press-Telegram: 7-1-2 Clay
Oakland Tribune: 5-4-1 Jones
AP poll of 15 writers at ringside: 7 for Clay, 5 for Jones and 3 even
UPI poll of 25 writers at ringside: 13 for Jones, 10 for Clay and 2 even

Still he's probably in the top 10 anyway.

Clay also took revenge in an exhibition match and completely humiliated Doug Jones like 3 years later.


----------



## turbotime

Ali doesn't do a lot for me TBH, still a top 10 lock though which is nothing to sneeze at.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> None of these fighters got arguably beaten by someone on the level of Doug Jones on their way up.
> 
> Unofficial Scorecards:
> 
> AP: 5-4-1 Jones
> UPI: 6-3-1 Clay
> Long Beach Press-Telegram: 7-1-2 Clay
> Oakland Tribune: 5-4-1 Jones
> AP poll of 15 writers at ringside: 7 for Clay, 5 for Jones and 3 even
> UPI poll of 25 writers at ringside: 13 for Jones, 10 for Clay and 2 even
> 
> Still he's probably in the top 10 anyway.
> 
> Clay also took revenge in an exhibition match and completely humiliated Doug Jones like 3 years later.


Key word arguably. He still won that shit. Clay hadn't reached his prime yet. I don't really think its that much of a slight against him.



turbotime said:


> Ali doesn't do a lot for me TBH, still a top 10 lock though which is nothing to sneeze at.


What does that even mean? Ali 65-67 is just as impressive as any fighter ever.


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> I'm a little disappointed that Ali isn't in there if you are going by abilities/primes


It just really isn't that important though, tommy. 
@PityTheFool would be even more disappointed if I excluded SRL.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Key word arguably. He still won that shit. Clay hadn't reached his prime yet. I don't really think its that much of a slight against him.
> 
> What does that even mean? Ali 65-67 is just as impressive as any fighter ever.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


>


and? He came back to cut cooper to smithereens, and fuck him up in a rematch


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> and? He came back to cut cooper to smithereens, and fuck him up in a rematch


His best win was a fixed fight vs Liston in his prime.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> His best win was a fixed fight vs Liston in his prime.


No concrete proof of it being fixed, just speculation.


----------



## Hands of Iron




----------



## dyna

Hands of Iron said:


>


This little guy is hot!

Have you ever come upon a toy so special that the first time you met, you saw spark? If not, then you haven't met Wind Up Sparklz. This windup is one real firecracker of a toy and one hat, so to speak, will light up your life as it teeters to and fro, letting off a train sparks.

Remember how much fun sparklers were on the 4th of July? well, just imagine a mini, motorized sparkler traipsing around your floor or desk, spraying a shower of sparks like the handheld fireworks. Sparklz will bring back the excitement of those summers of yesteryear with a brilliant little display that'll make you feel like a kid again.

Once you wind up the large key on Sparklz, his two wheels will take him on a journey across most flat surfaces. And, as he wobbles along your desk or floor, a turning cog on Sparklz strikes graphite paper which creates the little pyrotechnic display.

With our already "sparkling" assortment of wind-up toys, Sparklz adds a whole new dimension to the fun. Collect them all and create a parade of intriguing little toys that will march across your home while Sparklz brings up the rear in an awe-inspiring fireworks show!


----------



## tommygun711

while we're at it, if you really want to discredit Ali's win over Liston, you can do the same for Jones. McCallum was old, Toney was drained, Bhop was green, Reggie Johnson had already lost multiple times, etc


----------



## Pedderrs

tommygun711 said:


> while we're at it, if you really want to discredit Ali's win over Liston, you can do the same for Jones. McCallum was old, Toney was drained, Bhop was green, Reggie Johnson had already lost multiple times, etc


I have a feeling you're being trolled here, Tommy. I certainly hope so anyway otherwise turbo DKSAB.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> while we're at it, if you really want to discredit Ali's win over Liston, you can do the same for Jones. McCallum was old, Toney was drained, Bhop was green, Reggie Johnson had already lost multiple times, etc


Discredit the wins all you want, Jones was the rightful winner though. Do you think it was in agreement that Toney be drained during training?

Like the fixed Liston fights were? Apples and oranges and I don't rate the McCallum win highly at all.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Discredit the wins all you want, Jones was the rightful winner though. Do you think it was in agreement that Toney be drained during training?
> 
> Like the fixed Liston fights were? Apples and oranges and I don't rate the McCallum win highly at all.


And Ali was the rightful winner over Liston as well. Don't act like you know for a fact it was fixed. That's just speculation that you try to use to discredit the win. Liston was a wrecking machine ala Tyson and Ali stopped him in his tracks. That win is more impressive than beating a green Bhop or beating a drained Toney.


----------



## dyna

Tyson stopped men who were never stopped before, who did Liston stop who was never stopped before?


----------



## Hands of Iron

If you were arguing against Toney in some other argument, would he still be drained?


----------



## Pedderrs

At no point does Ali-Liston I resemble a fixed fight. The rematch is tainted, but Liston appeared to try everything possible to win the first time around. 

So, yeah, better than anything Jones ever achieved in the squared circle.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> If you were arguing against Toney in some other argument, would he still be drained?


:hey


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> At no point does Ali-Liston I resemble a fixed fight. The rematch is tainted, but Liston appeared to try everything possible to win the first time around.
> 
> So, yeah, better than anything Jones ever achieved in the squared circle.


Indeed :deal



Hands of Iron said:


> If you were arguing against Toney in some other argument, would he still be drained?


If I was arguing against Toney I would point out the Tiberi debacle and all of his other inconsistencies. I would point out how he is ABSOLUTE SHIT against certain styles.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> And Ali was the rightful winner over Liston as well. Don't act like you know for a fact it was fixed. That's just speculation that you try to use to discredit the win. Liston was a wrecking machine ala Tyson and Ali stopped him in his tracks. That win is more impressive than beating a green Bhop or beating a drained Toney.


Green Hopkins/Toney > Big Oaf Liston and getting whacked up by Sir Henry and Jones.


----------



## Pedderrs

dyna said:


> Tyson stopped men who were never stopped before, who did Liston stop who was never stopped before?


Liston was blasting out top ranked contenders in double quick time and decimated former Heavyweight Champ Floyd Patterson in the first round, not once - but twice. It's not quite the same as Tyson's reign of terror of the mid-late 80s, but it's somewhat comparable.


----------



## Hands of Iron

You can't tell a ***** what he is most impressed by or likes.

Turbo's statement on Jones isn't a matter of record. There's virtually nothing to argue against, especially when numerous people agree. People who aren't even fans of Roy Jones. Using the term 'Greatest' put people up in arms.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Green Hopkins/Toney > Big Oaf Liston and getting whacked up by Sir Henry and Jones.


slip ups against Cooper and Doug Jones dont really hurt Ali in the grand scheme of things because he still won those fights.

beating a wrecking machine in ATG Liston is more impressive than beating green hopkins (who would go onto improve post the Jones fight) and drained Toney who didn't look himself.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> slip ups against Cooper and Doug Jones dont really hurt Ali in the grand scheme of things because he still won those fights.
> 
> beating a wrecking machine in ATG Liston is more impressive than beating green hopkins (who would go onto improve post the Jones fight) and *drained Toney who didn't look himself.*







0:50

"Are you struggling again to get to 168 pounds"

Toney:"I feel good, I am in great shape"


----------



## Pedderrs

Hands of Iron said:


> You can't tell a ***** what he is most impressed by or likes.
> 
> Turbo's statement on Jones isn't a matter of record. There's virtually nothing to argue against, especially when numerous people agree. People who aren't even fans of Roy Jones. Using the term 'Greatest' put people up in arms.


And how about Turbo's comments regarding Ali? :lol: He has provided plenty to argue against, although I'm still hoping he's trolling hard.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> 0:50
> 
> "Are you struggling again to get to 168 pounds"
> 
> Toney:"I feel good, I am in great shape"


What is he supposed to say, oh no I feel terrible. This is just like what Dawson said RE fighting at 168 vs Ward.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> slip ups against Cooper and Doug Jones dont really hurt Ali in the grand scheme of things because he still won those fights.
> 
> beating a wrecking machine in ATG Liston is more impressive than beating green hopkins (who would go onto improve post the Jones fight) and drained Toney who didn't look himself.


Of course they don't hurt Ali when he is your agenda :lol:

Didn't look himself? Jones would've beaten Toney every night, and Toney would've had excuses even if he WON that fight really. How was Hopkins green? He had improved so much he outright ducked the rematch years later.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> You can't tell a ***** what he is most impressed by or likes.
> 
> Turbo's statement on Jones isn't a matter of record. There's virtually nothing to argue against, especially when numerous people agree. People who aren't even fans of Roy Jones. Using the term 'Greatest' put people up in arms.


Jones proved this amongst more weight classes as well. I'm fine if people have Ali over Jones. They are just wrong :conf


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> What is he supposed to say, oh no I feel terrible.


I would've, definitely.


----------



## Pedderrs

turbotime said:


> Jones proved this amongst more weight classes as well. I'm fine if people have Ali over Jones. They are just wrong :conf


Yes, let's penalise a fully-fledged Heavyweight for not being able to drop a couple of stone and work his way through the divisions.

Ali fought better comp, beat better comp, and unlike Superman didn't suffer consecutive devastating knockout defeats in the dying embers of his illustrious career. These are statements of fact.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Of course they don't hurt Ali when he is your agenda :lol:
> 
> Didn't look himself? Jones would've beaten Toney every night, and Toney would've had excuses even if he WON that fight really. How was Hopkins green? He had improved so much he outright ducked the rematch years later.


Why would it hurt Ali? He was green and still maturing. And he STILL dug deep and won those fights. It shows Ali's fighting heart if anything.

No I agree with that. stylistically Jones is all wrong for Toney on any given night. Same with Hopkins, although it's pretty clear to me that Hopkins had improved compared to his fights against Glen Johnson and Trinidad (his best performances)

Toney just didn't look as sharp as he usually did. he wasn't setting up ANY of his work. He didn't use any of the tactics he had used in the past.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Jones proved this amongst more weight classes as well. I'm fine if people have Ali over Jones. They are just wrong :conf


He didn't have a choice to fight at any other weight classes but heavyweight :lol: give me a break


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> Yes, let's penalise a fully-fledged Heavyweight for not being able to drop a couple of stone and work his way through the divisions.
> 
> Ali fought better comp, beat better comp, and unlike Superman didn't suffer consecutive devastating knockout defeats in the dying embers of his illustrious career. These are statements of fact.


Yeah because the end of Ali's career was a bright light right :lol: Roy is still winning some boxing matches, not getting out wrassled by Inoki for 5 bucks :lol:


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> Ali fought better comp, beat better comp, and unlike Superman didn't suffer consecutive devastating knockout defeats in the dying embers of his illustrious career. These are statements of fact.


Yeah that is another big deal. Even when past prime Ali didn't get KO'd by a fighter the caliber of Glen Johnson or Antonio Tarver. This ranks into their legacies as well.

When Ali's reflexes and speed faded, he was still able to be the best in his division. Jones wasn't. He didn't have Ali's chin.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> What is he supposed to say, oh no I feel terrible. This is just like what Dawson said RE fighting at 168 vs Ward.


Toney always ballooned up between fights, only when he lost he used it as an excuse.

4 months before Roy he fought a prime Charles Williams at 168 and had a very good performance.
You will never hear weight issues mentioned after that fight, why? because he won.

If he was so drained he would/should have complained even after wins.
You hear Mayweather talking post fight about hand injuries even if the fight was one sided, you know they are genuine complaints because it isn't just excuses for a loss or even a bad performance. Baldomir fight for example.

Also JCC Jr drains easily as much as Toney, nobody ever calls him a drained fighter.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Jones proved this amongst more weight classes as well. I'm fine if people have Ali over Jones. *They are just wrong* :conf


:lol:


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> Toney always ballooned up between fights, only when he lost he used it as an excuse.
> 
> 4 months before Roy he fought a prime Charles Williams at 168 and had a very good performance.
> You will never hear weight issues mentioned after that fight, why? because he won.
> 
> If he was so drained he would/should have complained even after wins.
> You hear Mayweather talking post fight about hand injuries even if the fight was one sided, you know they are genuine complaints because it isn't just excuses for a loss or even a bad performance. Baldomir fight for example.
> 
> Also JCC Jr drains easily as much as Toney, nobody ever calls him a drained fighter.


JCC jr is a scum bag. I don't wanna talk about that chump.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> Yeah that is another big deal. Even when past prime Ali didn't get KO'd by a fighter the caliber of Glen Johnson or Antonio Tarver. This ranks into their legacies as well.
> 
> When Ali's reflexes and speed faded, he was still able to be the best in his division. Jones wasn't. He didn't have Ali's chin.


When Ali was as old as Roy Jones he got beaten by Leon Spinks of all people.
:rolleyes


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Why would it hurt Ali? He was green and still maturing. And he STILL dug deep and won those fights. It shows Ali's fighting heart if anything.
> 
> No I agree with that. stylistically Jones is all wrong for Toney on any given night. Same with Hopkins, although it's pretty clear to me that Hopkins had improved compared to his fights against Glen Johnson and Trinidad (his best performances)
> 
> Toney just didn't look as sharp as he usually did. he wasn't setting up ANY of his work. He didn't use any of the tactics he had used in the past.


Toney couldn't set up his work because Jones' feet were too good, and doesn't have a rhythm for Toney to adapt to.

So what was so great about Ali's prime again? 65-67 ? He fought guys with numerous losses. NUMEROUS. Yet Jones doesn't get credit for Johnson because you know, Johnson lost before.

Oh the standards


----------



## Pedderrs

This thread just got very stupid. I will have to leave now because I fear the stupidity might be contagious.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> JCC jr is a scum bag. I don't wanna talk about that chump.


But you do want to talk about Toney?

Toney is obviously a few leagues ahead of JCC Jr but they have some areas where they're basically the same:
Both lazy
Both were/are big weightdrainers
Both have been caught with PEDs in their system

As far as I know roiding is the worst thing JCC Jr has ever done and Toney has done the same.


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> Toney always ballooned up between fights, only when he lost he used it as an excuse.
> 
> 4 months before Roy he fought a prime Charles Williams at 168 and had a very good performance.
> You will never hear weight issues mentioned after that fight, why? because he won.
> 
> If he was so drained he would/should have complained even after wins.
> You hear Mayweather talking post fight about hand injuries even if the fight was one sided, you know they are genuine complaints because it isn't just excuses for a loss or even a bad performance. Baldomir fight for example.
> 
> Also JCC Jr drains easily as much as Toney, nobody ever calls him a drained fighter.


:kwonooh


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Toney couldn't set up his work because *Jones' feet were too good,* and doesn't have a rhythm for Toney to adapt to.
> 
> So what was so great about Ali's prime again? 65-67 ? He fought guys with numerous losses. NUMEROUS. Yet Jones doesn't get credit for Johnson because you know, Johnson lost before.
> 
> Oh the standards


They're probably actually busted. :sad5

Ali's prime was cut pretty short and that's a damn shame. There's not a ton to go off of and he made the bulk of his legacy in the 70's when I probably wouldn't describe him as one of the 10 fighters I've ever seen, way too much holding. Then again, Tyson's prime was damn short. 65-67 Ali probably gets in, if not right outside.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> They're probably actually busted. :sad5
> 
> Ali's prime was cut pretty short and that's a damn shame. There's not a ton to go off of and he made the bulk of his legacy in the 70's when I probably wouldn't describe him as one of the 10 fighters I've ever seen, way too much holding. Then again, Tyson's prime was damn short. 65-67 Ali probably gets in, if not right outside.


yeah all of the 70s holding was just too much for me. Watching facing Ali, a lot of the guys just said he was very tough, tougher than they thought him to be.

I prefer the more fundamental skills compared to spoiling tactics, if that's a "skill"


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> They're probably actually busted. :sad5
> 
> Ali's prime was cut pretty short and that's a damn shame. There's not a ton to go off of and he made the bulk of his legacy in the 70's when I probably wouldn't describe him as one of the 10 fighters I've ever seen, way too much holding. Then again, Tyson's prime was damn short. 65-67 Ali probably gets in, if not right outside.


I feel a lot of people need to rank Ali just because.


----------



## tliang1000

Ali is higher on my ATG list
Mainly bc i feel that he has fought the better competition.
I do think that Roy is one of the most naturally gifted fighters i have ever seen and his skills/ability > Ali's but Ali is more of a fighter than Roy.
Ali got more heart and that goes a long way as a fighter.

Not saying that Roy doesn't have any heart or Ali doesn't have any natural ability of course.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

I don't know what TommyGun is talking about. RJJ is the greatest H2H fighter in my book and therefore the greatest of all time.

Some people base greatness off resumes. I can understand their logic, but personally, I base the greatest off of performance. The reason I don't totally base it off resume is because what if there wasn't a fighter like SRR, SRL, Ali, or Tyson born in said era where there's possibly a fighter greater than those just mentioned? Someone like RJJ shouldn't be penalized because SRR or Ali didn't exist in his era, nor should he be penalized because he was never in as many wars as those great fighter before him; he just made wins look easy so people assume he didn't beat anyone.

RJJ is the GOAT in my book, but like I said before I base greatness off of performance, not necessarily completely resume. RJJ did things in the ring "NO ONE" in the history of boxing has ever done and this sport is pretty damn old.


----------



## turbotime

BoxingGenius27 said:


> I don't know what TommyGun is talking about. RJJ is the greatest H2H fighter in my book and therefore the greatest of all time.
> 
> Some people base greatness off resumes. I can understand their logic, but personally, I base the greatest off of performance. The reason I don't totally base it off resume is because what if there wasn't a fighter like SRR, SRL, Ali, or Tyson born in said era where there's possibly a fighter greater than those just mentioned? Someone like RJJ shouldn't be penalized because SRR or Ali didn't exist in his era, nor should he be penalized because he was never in as many wars as those great fighter before him; he just made wins look easy so people assume he didn't beat anyone.
> 
> RJJ is the GOAT in my book, but like I said before I base greatness off of performance, not necessarily completely resume. RJJ did things in the ring "NO ONE" in the history of boxing has ever done and this sport is pretty damn old.


Post more


----------



## BoxingGenius27

turbotime said:


> Post more


About Roy or in general about other stuff?


----------



## turbotime

BoxingGenius27 said:


> About Roy or in general about other stuff?


Everything. I know you from NSB.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> I don't know what TommyGun is talking about. RJJ is the greatest H2H fighter in my book and therefore the greatest of all time.
> 
> Some people base greatness off resumes. I can understand their logic, but personally, I base the greatest off of performance. The reason I don't totally base it off resume is because what if there wasn't a fighter like SRR, SRL, Ali, or Tyson born in said era where there's possibly a fighter greater than those just mentioned? Someone like RJJ shouldn't be penalized because SRR or Ali didn't exist in his era, nor should he be penalized because he was never in as many wars as those great fighter before him; he just made wins look easy so people assume he didn't beat anyone.
> 
> RJJ is the GOAT in my book, but like I said before I base greatness off of performance, not necessarily completely resume. RJJ did things in the ring "NO ONE" in the history of boxing has ever done and this sport is pretty damn old.


Well first of all if you are just going with H2H greatness, Ali should be favored over any heavyweight ever. Comparatively speaking there are quite a few middleweights and light heavyweights that would arguably beat Jones. Bob Foster, Michael Spinks, Floyd Patterson, Dwight Qawi, Ezzard Charles, and Harold Johnson would all be favored to beat Roy at light heavyweight IMO, among others. Hagler, Monzon and Robinson would have great chances to beat Roy at MW. I'd say he is definitely top 5 H2H at middleweight though. Not too many would beat him there.

In order to be considered the best H2H fighter of all time you have to have the resume to back it up. You have to be battle tested. I've already picked apart Roy's resume so I won't bother with that. Ali is battle tested and there is no doubt at all that Ali has one of the best resume's ever. The same cannot be said for Roy.


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> I don't know what TommyGun is talking about.


Tommy rejects the idea that Ali's greatness is somehow diminished because of two below-par performances against Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.

I agree with him.



> Some people base greatness off resumes. I can understand their logic, but personally, I base the greatest off of performance. The reason I don't totally base it off resume is because what if there wasn't a fighter like SRR, SRL, Ali, or Tyson born in said era where there's possibly a fighter greater than those just mentioned? Someone like RJJ shouldn't be penalized because SRR or Ali didn't exist in his era, nor should he be penalized because he was never in as many wars as those great fighter before him; he just made wins look easy so people assume he didn't beat anyone.


You make some valid points, but performances should be judged relative to the level of competition. For example, I could argue that Ricardo Lopez handled 105lbs fighters even more emphatically than Jones did 168lbs fighters; but whereas one was fighting the likes of Hideyuki Ohashi, the other was clowning James Toney. Do you reject this gargantuan disparity in levels simply by saying "Well, Lopez shouldn't be penalised because there was no great Minimumweights around at the time"? I don't think that's the most honest way of judging fighters personally, and thus I take great stock in the level of competition of each fighter. For me, it's the most effective way of gauging quality.



> RJJ is the GOAT in my book, but like I said before I base greatness off of performance, not necessarily completely resume. RJJ did things in the ring "NO ONE" in the history of boxing has ever done and this sport is pretty damn old.


Roy Jones was one of the most talented fighters that ever lived, for certain, but I guess his standing is greatly affected by how you judge his two wins over both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins. If you reject the idea that Toney was weight drained and that Hopkins was green, then sure, I suppose I could see a better argument for why Roy Jones Jr should be placed on this pedestal. For me, I don't think Bernard Hopkins was an A+ talent in 1993. I'm sorry I don't. Now whether or not a 2001 Bernard Hopkins would have fared much better is up for debate, and we can have it if you like, but '93 Hopkins wasn't the guy that destroyed Tito Trinidad and therefore isn't nearly as valuable a win as it may appear on paper.

Roy Jones, incredible fighter that achieved a lot in his career, but Ali done wrestle with Alligators. He's far greater in my estimation.


----------



## turbotime

Pedderrs said:


> Tommy rejects the idea that Ali's greatness is somehow diminished because of two below-par performances against Doug Jones and* Bert Cooper*.


:eye


----------



## Pedderrs

:lol:


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> Well first of all if you are just going with H2H greatness, Ali should be favored over any heavyweight ever. Comparatively speaking there are quite a few middleweights and light heavyweights that would arguably beat Jones.* Bob Foster, Michael Spinks, Floyd Patterson, Dwight Qawi, Ezzard Charles, and Harold Johnson *would all be favored to beat Roy at light heavyweight IMO, among others. Hagler, Monzon and Robinson would have great chances to beat Roy at MW. I'd say he is definitely top 5 H2H at middleweight though. Not too many would beat him there.
> 
> In order to be considered the best H2H fighter of all time you have to have the resume to back it up. You have to be battle tested. I've already picked apart Roy's resume so I won't bother with that. Ali is battle tested and there is no doubt at all that Ali has one of the best resume's ever. The same cannot be said for Roy.


Spinks resume at LH is overrated IMO when it comes to the greats of the weight class. Qawi wasn't even the favorite against Saeed Muhammed, but you have him the favorite against a prime RJJ? Floyd Patterson made his name as a HW, I don't think he matches up well with RJJ at LH.

The only guys on the list that you provided that gives Roy a go would be Foster, Charles and probably Johnson all whom lost in their primes. If Mauro Mina could beat prime Foster, Elmer Ray could beat prime Charles, and Bob Satterfield could beat Johnson, I have no reason to believe Roy Jones couldn't do the same.

Of course, all this is subjective when talking H2H, but what we do know, is prime RJJ never lost a fight and was rarely even competitive outside of the Montell Griffin fight. Although Jones beat Tarver, I don't count his Tarver fights because Roy was well past his prime post winning the heavyweight title. RJJ was the only boxer in history to start his career as a JMW and go on to win the HVWT title. Only other people to come close to this feat in the history of boxing was Sam Langford and Bob Fitzsimmons.

Regarding Monzon, Hagler or Robinson possibly beating RJJ H2H, the same argument above can apply here as well. If Jake LaMotta can beat Robinson, why can't prime RJJ who was obviously much more skilled, faster and possibly more powerful at 160. Monzon has lost in his prime or had draws against much lower tier/quality fighters than that of RJJ. If RJJ faced Hagler at 160, he would provide the same blue print SRL used, only RJJ wouldn't be coming out of retirement and would have just as much speed, but have much more power than SRL at 160. In my book, RJJ beats Hagler by UD in similar fashion he beat Hopkins.

At the end of the day all this is subjective for we will never know. I'm strictly going off eye test here.

But I really believe had RJJ struggled or had to lift himself off the canvas like some of his predeccors and was involved in more wars and competitive bouts, his status and all time ranking would be much higher.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Flea Man said:


> Qawi would beat Jones. Possibly.


How did you come to this conclusion?


----------



## Flea Man

BoxingGenius27 said:


> How did you come to this conclusion?


In your above post, you said Mina beat 'a prime Foster'.

You are analysing based purely on boxrec and you are not worth my, or any sensible historian's, time.


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> I feel a lot of people need to rank Ali just because.


That is utter bullshit.


----------



## Flea Man

And if anyone thinks I 'hate Jones' ask @Hands of Iron


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Flea Man said:


> In your above post, you said Mina beat 'a prime Foster'.
> 
> You are analysing based purely on boxrec and you are not worth my, or any sensible historian's, time.


1. Were you serious when you said Qwai beats RJJ?

2. I'm going to be honest, I was born in 1982. I've been watching boxing since 1986. I wasn't even alive when Foster was fighting live. Of course I'm going to have to use boxrec or youtube like anyone else does. Unless you were born in 1890, you have also used boxrec or youtube for information you weren't around for.

So I'm going to ask you, were you born in 1890 or 1905? If not, yes you've used boxrec to become the self proclaimed historian you are. Wanna know another reason how I know you've used boxrec? Guys like Charles Burley, Harry Greb, etc barely even have any footage available to even judge them on film, let alone you watching them live coming up. Point of the matter is, you've used boxrec just like any other person; especially if you're the self proclaimed boxing historian you are.

And what's with all your ad-hominem attacks. That's really weak man.


----------



## Flea Man

BoxingGenius27 said:


> 1. Were you serious when you said Qwai beats RJJ?
> 
> 2. I'm going to be honest, I was born in 1982. I've been watching boxing since 1986. I wasn't even alive when Foster was fighting live. Of course I'm going to have to use boxrec or youtube like anyone else does. Unless you were born in 1890, you have also used boxrec or youtube for information you weren't around for.
> 
> So I'm going to ask you, were you born in 1890 or 1905? If not, yes you've used boxrec to become the self proclaimed historian you are. Wanna know another reason how I know you've used boxrec? Guys like Charles Burley, Harry Greb, etc barely even have any footage available to even judge them on film, let alone you watching them live coming up. Point of the matter is, you've used boxrec just like any other person; especially if you're the self proclaimed boxing historian you are.
> 
> And what's with all your ad-hominem attacks. That's really weak man.


Everyone uses boxrec. They do not use that as the basis of their argument. They do other research, to contextualise the information valuable sources such as Boxrec give them. If you think historians scan boxrec records and watch whatever is available on youtube to form an opinion you are very much mistaken.

Saying Foster was 'in his prime' in the early 60s goes to show you haven't done that. And for that reason, I don't care to talk to you seriously about boxing.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Flea Man said:


> Everyone uses boxrec. They do not use that as the basis of their argument. They do other research, to contextualise the information valuable sources such as Boxrec give them. If you think historians scan boxrec records and watch whatever is available on youtube to form an opinion you are very much mistaken.
> 
> Saying Foster was 'in his prime' in the early 60s goes to show you haven't done that. And for that reason,* I don't care to talk to you seriously about boxing*.


And you saying Qawi could beat RJJ makes me feel the same. I guess we agree to not talk to each other, which is fine.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Spinks resume at LH is overrated IMO when it comes to the greats of the weight class. Qawi wasn't even the favorite against Saeed Muhammed, but you have him the favorite against a prime RJJ? Floyd Patterson made his name as a HW, I don't think he matches up well with RJJ at LH.


Does Roy actually have a better LHW resume than Spinks? No, he doesn't. Spinks' wins over Qawi, Lopez, Johnson, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Sutherland, etc. Who did Roy beat at LHW that is considered great? The answer is nobody.

Stylistically Qawi would be able to grind Roy down with his relentless pressure and combination punching. He would be able to track Roy down and stop him late.

So what Patterson made his name at HW, he was a lot more deadly at LHW because he wasn't undersized and he was just a lot better at that weight. He moved up to HW to make more money. Seeing how quick Patterson was and how explosive he was at LHW he obviously has a chance against Roy, as do ALL of the guys I'm talking about. It's stupid to say that only a few of these guys would "give Roy a go"



> In my book, RJJ beats Hagler by UD in similar fashion he beat Hopkins.


:rofl Too bad Hopkins is totally different to Hagler. jesus.


----------



## Flea Man

BoxingGenius27 said:


> And you saying Qawi could beat RJJ makes me feel the same. I guess we agree to not talk to each other, which is fine.


Oh, well, laters spastic.


----------



## dyna

BoxingGenius27 said:


> 1. Were you serious when you said Qwai beats RJJ?
> 
> 2. I'm going to be honest, I was born in 1982. I've been watching boxing since 1986. I wasn't even alive when Foster was fighting live. Of course I'm going to have to use boxrec or youtube like anyone else does. Unless you were born in 1890, you have also used boxrec or youtube for information you weren't around for.
> 
> So I'm going to ask you, were you born in 1890 or 1905? If not, yes you've used boxrec to become the self proclaimed historian you are. Wanna know another reason how I know you've used boxrec? Guys like Charles Burley, Harry Greb, etc barely even have any footage available to even judge them on film, let alone you watching them live coming up. Point of the matter is, you've used boxrec just like any other person; especially if you're the self proclaimed boxing historian you are.
> 
> And what's with all your ad-hominem attacks. That's really weak man.


Be fair to Flea Man, Foster had like 12 fights.
No way is that prime.

I know nobody with 65 fights total that was in his prime after just 12.


----------



## dyna

dyna said:


> Be fair to Flea Man, Foster had like 12 fights.
> No way is that prime.
> 
> I know nobody with 65 fights total that was in his prime after just 12.


A 12 fight Holyfield went life to death with Qawi.
After the fight he had lost 10 lbs of waterweight and was in shock. (His wife told him to go to hospital)

1 year later he destroyed Qawi.

Edit: I was supposed to edit my old post, not quote myself. atsch


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> Does Roy actually have a better LHW resume than Spinks? No, he doesn't. Spinks' wins over Qawi, Lopez, Johnson, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Sutherland, etc. Who did Roy beat at LHW that is considered great? The answer is nobody.
> 
> Stylistically Qawi would be able to grind Roy down with his relentless pressure and combination punching. He would be able to track Roy down and stop him late.
> 
> So what Patterson made his name at HW, he was a lot more deadly at LHW because he wasn't undersized and he was just a lot better at that weight. He moved up to HW to make more money. Seeing how quick Patterson was and how explosive he was at LHW he obviously has a chance against Roy, as do ALL of the guys I'm talking about. It's stupid to say that only a few of these guys would "give Roy a go"
> 
> :rofl Too bad Hopkins is totally different to Hagler. jesus.


You really think Qawi would "grind and stop" RJJ late?? Qawi is entirely too small and flat footed. He would never land anything of significance against RJJ because Roy would never be there long enough for him to hit. Once Qawi covered up in his shell, Roy would throw punches from weird angles with enough power stop Qawi rather early in my opinion. The difference in speed and skill between these two fighters was night and day. I can't believe you're seriously debating this.

So let me understand this. You acknowledge Lopez, Johnson, Sutherland as being great fighters, but don't acknowledge that Roy had 7 titles all at the same time at LH while beating the likes of Hill, McCallum, Gonzales, Griffin, Johnson, and then beating Tarver when he was obviously past his prime. Hill is easily a top 10-20 LH of all time. Johnson is a former 4 division champion. McCallum on his worse day is better than any of those guys you mentioned outside of Qawi or Muhammed. Gonzales went on to beat Dariusz after losing to RJJ. McCallum went on to be very competitive with James Toney. Hell, Montell Griffin beat James Toney... You crap on all these guys and Roy's resume, but bring up Murray Sutherland and Yaqui Lopez??

Roy actually defended his belt more than Spinks at Light Heavy over a longer stretch... Keep in mind, Roy started his career at 154. Spinks started at 175. Roy was already a small LH relying on speed, athleticism, power and smarts. Again, Roy held 7 titles at LH all at the same time... Who does that? No one. And you're up here talking about Murray Sutherland.

Give me a break.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

To be honest, I don't even think Qawi or Muhummad were better Light Heavyweights than Virgil Hill


----------



## BoxingGenius27

And @ Flea Man,

TommyGun and I were talking about H2H matchups; hence me bringing up Foster losing. You completely missed the point I was making. Point was, Bob Foster has lost to less tier fighters than RJJ.. I was never trying to debate who was in prime or not. Foster, Harold Johnson, Charles, etc have all loss to lesser tier fighters than RJJ and since TommyGun and I were talking H2H, I brought up the possibility of them also losing to RJJ...

What we do know is prime RJJ has never lost. I can't say the same about the other guys mentioned except for Spinks.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> To be honest, I don't even think Qawi or Muhummad were better Light Heavyweights than Virgil Hill


well you're wrong about that. straight up. Qawi and Muhammad would both fuck up Hill.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> well you're wrong about that. straight up. Qawi and Muhammad would both fuck up Hill.


Ok, so now you're using my original argument of defining greatness by using H2H as reasoning. Something you were completely against just last page.

Are we talking resume/accomplishments or H2H?


----------



## Flea Man

BoxingGenius27 said:


> To be honest, I don't even think Qawi or Muhummad were better Light Heavyweights than Virgil Hill


Oh, dear god.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Flea Man said:


> Oh, dear god.


Dear God what?

Virgil Hill is at least a top 10-15 LH of all time... What are Qawi and Muhummad on the all time LH list?

Virgil Hill defended his title for a month or two shy of 5 years, while hauling off 10 straight successful title defenses...

What did Qawi or Muhamed accomplish at LH that matches a few of these feats?


----------



## dyna

BoxingGenius27 said:


> To be honest, I don't even think *Qawi* or Muhummad were better Light Heavyweights than Virgil Hill


atsch


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> :rofl Too bad Hopkins is totally different to Hagler. jesus.


Hopkins beats Hagler :hey


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Hopkins beats Hagler :hey


nah


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> atsch


Qawi ducked low illegally :-(


----------



## BoxingGenius27

dyna said:


> atsch


Qawi fought Holyfield at Cruiserweight... We're talking about accomplishments at Light Heavyweight. Stay with me


----------



## dyna

turbotime said:


> Qawi ducked low illegally :-(


:yep

Yea I know :sad5


----------



## dyna

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Qawi fought Holyfield at Cruiserweight... We're talking about *accomplishments* at Light Heavyweight. Stay with me


"To be honest, I don't even think Qawi or Muhummad were *better* Light Heavyweights than Virgil Hill"

Sure, Virgil Hill has a lot more fights at lhw than Qawi, he also has a lot more title defences.
But he's not better.

I don't think Qawi could have had the reign Virgil Hill had, he would eat his way out of the division eventually.
But when you put a prime Qawi infront of each and every opponent I would favour him over everyone but Roy Jones.


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> :yep
> 
> Yea I know :sad5


Not too hard to when you're 5 foot 1


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Oh, well, laters spastic.


The amount of shit that has been spouted in this thread as of late is pretty incredible.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Roy Jones would play a game of basketball then whoop Dwight Qawi and finish the night with a rap concert for his fans


----------



## turbotime

Roy would of kicked the hell out of Saad that's for sure.


----------



## Pedderrs

Jones would have whooped Spinks, too. It would be Clinton Woods all over again.

Ya'll musta forgot.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Roy would of kicked the hell out of Saad that's for sure.


Well the thing with Saad is that he would always have a chance to spark Roy out, with Roy's vulnerabilities at LHW. I do favor Roy though obviously but Saad could finish Roy late in the fight, way behind on points.



BoxingGenius27 said:


> Roy Jones would play a game of basketball then whoop Dwight Qawi and finish the night with a rap concert for his fans


yada yada yada.. it would be nowhere near as easy as you say. Qawi is one of the best LHWs ever for a reason. dude would give Roy a helluva fight win or lose. in order to beat Qawi you need a crisp powerful jab, which roy never had


----------



## Dedication

pedderrs said:


> jones would have whooped spinks, too. It would be clinton woods all over again.
> 
> Ya'll musta forgot.


yall musta forgot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> Well the thing with Saad is that he would always have a chance to spark Roy out, with Roy's vulnerabilities at LHW. I do favor Roy though obviously but Saad could finish Roy late in the fight, way behind on points.
> yada yada yada.. it would be nowhere near as easy as you say. Qawi is one of the best LHWs ever for a reason. dude would give Roy a helluva fight win or lose. in order to beat Qawi you need a crisp powerful jab, which roy never had


Roy's left hook was his jab.
He didn't really need one.

Against Ruiz he used a jab, and Ruiz had a good jab himself. (I think even Steward said so during the Kirk Johnson-Ruiz fight, but I don't really watch that fight again to find that small fragment where Steward mentioned that.) And Ruiz always had a high connect rate with his jabs.


----------



## Pedderrs

I don't think I've ever agreed with TommyGun this much in one thread before. Ya'll all making him look like a genius though to be fair.

_"People rank Ali just because"_. Yeah, it had nothing to do with the countless hall of famers he defeated. Zero.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> Roy's left hook was his jab.
> He didn't really need one.
> 
> Against Ruiz he used a jab, and Ruiz had a good jab himself. (I think even Steward said so during the Kirk Johnson-Ruiz fight, but I don't really watch that fight again to find that small fragment where Steward mentioned that.) And Ruiz always had a high connect rate with his jabs.


The thing I noticed about Roy with his jab is that when he used it, it had a really low connect percentage. Obviously he didn't need one, judging by his career lol.

Against Qawi he would most definitely need one though. You absolutely need one to outbox Qawi, ala Michael Spinks, otherwise you will have to deal with Qawi on the inside.

I don't think any of what I'm saying is unreasonable. I just think with Qawi's style and toughness that he would pin Jones on the ropes and damage him one way or another, even if he doesn't beat him (which I think he would)



Pedderrs said:


> I don't think I've ever agreed with TommyGun this much in one thread before. Ya'll all making him look like a genius though to be fair.
> 
> _"People rank Ali just because"_. Yeah, it had nothing to do with the countless hall of famers he defeated. Zero.


:rofl remember our discussions about Junior Jones, Barrera and Morales?? We would never agree on ESB.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> :rofl remember our discussions about Junior Jones, Barrera and Morales?? We would never agree on ESB.


Obviously, he nut hugs Barrera.


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> Roy's left hook was his jab.
> He didn't really need one.
> 
> Against Ruiz he used a jab, and Ruiz had a good jab himself. (I think even Steward said so during the Kirk Johnson-Ruiz fight, but I don't really watch that fight again to find that small fragment where Steward mentioned that.) And Ruiz always had a high connect rate with his jabs.


That's a nice call, I remember that. He could hook off the jab amazingly. I love that combo, do it all the time.


----------



## Blanco

When I think about Roy Jones H2H status at light heavyweight, the one question I always ask myself is how will Roy opposition prepare for a fighter like Roy Jones?.....I mean most will be too big to get quality sparring against smaller faster guys cause they will just walk through their shots.....fighters at lower weight classes would have trouble preparing for speed like that, just imagine a big LHW trying to do so......it took a small LHW in Montell Griffin to give Roy his toughest fight in his prime.....I've always been curious as to who helped Griffin for that fight as far as sparring is concerned.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> The thing I noticed about Roy with his jab is that when he used it, it had a really low connect percentage. Obviously he didn't need one, judging by his career lol.
> 
> Against Qawi he would most definitely need one though. You absolutely need one to outbox Qawi, ala Michael Spinks, otherwise you will have to deal with Qawi on the inside.
> 
> I don't think any of what I'm saying is unreasonable. I just think with Qawi's style and toughness that he would pin Jones on the ropes and damage him one way or another, even if he doesn't beat him (which I think he would)
> 
> :rofl remember our discussions about Junior Jones, Barrera and Morales?? We would never agree on ESB.


Fair enough, Qawi is a h2h monster.
Great chin, good power, good defence, possibly the best counter jab of his generation.
No shame in losing to him as he was a monster at his best, but he wasn't the most consistent either and I would certainly not bet on Qawi.


----------



## Flea Man

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Dear God what?
> 
> Virgil Hill is at least a top 10-15 LH of all time... What are Qawi and Muhummad on the all time LH list?
> 
> Virgil Hill defended his title for a month or two shy of 5 years, while hauling off 10 straight successful title defenses...
> 
> What did Qawi or Muhamed accomplish at LH that matches a few of these feats?


Against pretty dire opposition.

Tell mr, who are your top 10-15 light heavyweights?


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> Roy would of kicked the hell out of Saad that's for sure.


Saad is the greater light heavyweight though.

At light heavy, Jones isn't top 10.


----------



## Pedderrs

tommygun711 said:


> The thing I noticed about Roy with his jab is that when he used it, it had a really low connect percentage. Obviously he didn't need one, judging by his career lol.
> 
> Against Qawi he would most definitely need one though. You absolutely need one to outbox Qawi, ala Michael Spinks, otherwise you will have to deal with Qawi on the inside.
> 
> I don't think any of what I'm saying is unreasonable. I just think with Qawi's style and toughness that he would pin Jones on the ropes and damage him one way or another, even if he doesn't beat him (which I think he would)
> 
> :rofl remember our discussions about Junior Jones, Barrera and Morales?? We would never agree on ESB.


You're absolutely right when you suggest that Qawi would be a dangerous opponent for Jones. Simply concluding that Jones would win emphatically and easily because he was so aesthetically pleasing is too simplistic. Roy was far from style over substance, but Qawi was no joke. He was incredibly strong physically and relentless in his educated pressure. He had to be controlled with a jab, and it took one as good as Spinks' to get the job done. Spinks had an incredible jab; just ask Ramon Ranquello.

Jones' reliance on athletic ability and reflexes is what makes this fight very dangerous, and it's also the reason I think Spinks would have gotten him at 175lbs.

I can't really remember what you had to say about Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrera. You'll have to remind me.


----------



## LittleRed

I love that getting dropped by Henry Cooper is seen as some disqualification. De la Hoya got dropped when he was a kid by Narcisco Valenzuela, Barrera went down pre Jones. Whitaker got dropped by Roger Mayweather. 

Y'all must've forgot that Roy Jones was dropped, in his prime and at his best weight against Lou Del Valle.

If you want to say Roy is better than Ali because he is more complete (ie he could punch) that's fine but that's it. Besides Ali is just more of a g than roy was and that's a literal fact. NOI.


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> Saad is the greater light heavyweight though.
> 
> At light heavy, Jones isn't top 10.


Well when 175 is so stacked, that's fine.

I prefer the Roy at 160 anyhow. More combos, more power.


----------



## dyna

LittleRed said:


> I love that getting dropped by Henry Cooper is seen as some disqualification. De la Hoya got dropped when he was a kid by Narcisco Valenzuela, Barrera went down pre Jones. Whitaker got dropped by Roger Mayweather.
> 
> Y'all must've forgot that Roy Jones was dropped, in his prime and at his best weight against Lou Del Valle.
> 
> If you want to say Roy is better than Ali because he is more complete (ie he could punch) that's fine but that's it. Besides Ali is just more of a g than roy was and that's a literal fact. NOI.


The DQ part about Cooper-Ali is the use of smelling salts by his trainer, which was illegal in England at that time.


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> The DQ part about Cooper-Ali is the use of smelling salts by his trainer, which was illegal in England at that time.


and the Jones fight. Ali coulda lost really.


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> You're absolutely right when you suggest that Qawi would be a dangerous opponent for Jones. Simply concluding that Jones would win emphatically and easily because he was so aesthetically pleasing is too simplistic. Roy was far from style over substance, but Qawi was no joke. He was incredibly strong physically and relentless in his educated pressure. He had to be controlled with a jab, and it took one as good as Spinks' to get the job done.


 @BoxingGenius27 said Jones would stop him early rounds. I'm sorry but that just isn't happening. Qawi is too tough & strong for that to happen. Few fighters could tame Qawi with a jab, only Spinks really managed it in Qawi's prime. To act like Qawi has no chance at all is silly. Qawi would be Jones' hardest opponent at LHW.



> I can't really remember what you had to say about Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrera. You'll have to remind me.


I don't really remember either. it's been a while. I just remember you going ballistic and having these long debates about Morales vs Barrera, who's greater, etc.


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> and the Jones fight. Ali coulda lost really.


that was a close fight that could have gone either way. and it was pre-prime Clay. not a big deal at all.


----------



## Blanco

LittleRed said:


> I love that getting dropped by Henry Cooper is seen as some disqualification. De la Hoya got dropped when he was a kid by Narcisco Valenzuela, Barrera went down pre Jones. Whitaker got dropped by Roger Mayweather.
> 
> Y'all must've forgot that Roy Jones was dropped, in his prime *and at his best weight *against Lou Del Valle.
> 
> If you want to say Roy is better than Ali because he is more complete (ie he could punch) that's fine but that's it. Besides Ali is just more of a g than roy was and that's a literal fact. NOI.


I think 168 might have been Roy's best weight, but that's going on the eye test and knowing that Roy was not a tall LHW.....But he definitely accomplished the most at LHW.


----------



## LittleRed

dyna said:


> The DQ part about Cooper-Ali is the use of smelling salts by his trainer, which was illegal in England at that time.


Ok. That's fair. But why isn't Jones penalized for the fight when he tested positive for a banned substance? I'm sure they would both plead ignorance. Isn't that unfair to penalize one for using an illegal substance but not the other.


----------



## LittleRed

Blanco said:


> I think 168 might have been Roy's best weight, but that's going on the eye test and knowing that Roy was not a tall LHW.....But he definitely accomplished the most at LHW.


I agree in terms of accomplishment it's probably 175. But 168 is his best win and his most impressive performances.


----------



## turbotime

LittleRed said:


> Ok. That's fair. But why isn't Jones penalized for the fight when he tested positive for a banned substance? I'm sure they would both plead ignorance. Isn't that unfair to penalize one for using an illegal substance but not the other.


The guy whose ass he whooped had twice the amount didn't he?


----------



## dyna

LittleRed said:


> Ok. That's fair. But why isn't Jones penalized for the fight when he tested positive for a banned substance? I'm sure they would both plead ignorance. Isn't that unfair to penalize one for using an illegal substance but not the other.


I don't want to admit hypocricy so I'll just use "Ripped fuel" as an excuse for Roy testing positive.


----------



## VG_Addict

Who did Virgil Hill beat to be a top 10-15 at LHW?


----------



## LittleRed

turbotime said:


> The guy whose ass he whooped had twice the amount didn't he?


True but if you believe that Ali should get a dq for the cooper fight, then surely you believe that that should be a no contest. Smelling salts were legal in America and ripped fuel was deemed to be legal.

All guys get breaks like that. Ali had hand injections which I don't think would be legal today (except in Nevada which is why Floyd fights there). And didn't Clinton Woods claim that there was no post fight drug test in his fight with Jones or am I misremebering something?


----------



## dyna

VG_Addict said:


> Who did Virgil Hill beat to be a top 10-15 at LHW?


(I don't think he's great but I think some might argue he is because of: )
Henry Maske...

He just had a very long reign even if it wasn't against the best.
12 defences of his paper strap before losing to Hearns, and then another 10 defences before losing to some guy with a difficult name.

H2H he's certainly anything but great, there's no shame in losing to Hearns at 147-160 but at 175 a great lhw shouldn't lose to Hearns. No excuses.
So he's not great in my books.


----------



## tliang1000

Y'all musta forgot!

"when i beat bernard hopkins for the IBF title"

Y'all musta forgot!

-one handed


----------



## dyna

tliang1000 said:


> Y'all musta forgot!
> 
> "when i beat bernard hopkins for the IBF title"
> 
> Y'all musta forgot!
> 
> -one handed


"The right was hurt so I beat him with the left"

Y'all musta forgot!


----------



## tliang1000

dyna said:


> "The right was hurt so I beat him with the left"
> 
> Y'all musta forgot!


And David Telasco, he really asked for it
*So I beat him with a fractured wrist
*See y'all musta forgot! .... (remember that...)


----------



## dyna

People often underestimate just how hard of a puncher Roy was.
The only guys he did not stop from middleweight to smw were Hopkins, Toney, McCallum, Fermin Chirino and Jorge Fernando Castro.
3 of these guys were never stopped and known for their iron chin.
Fernando also had an iron chin and it took a hard punching cruiserweight Carlos Gomez to stop a 35 year old Castro and another hard punching lhw Herrara stopped a 40 year old Jorge, Jirov could not finish a 36 year old Castro.
Only Chirino did not have an iron chin of the bunch.

90% KO ratio, as high as Golovkin and he still got criticized for not taking enough chances.


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> People often underestimate just how hard of a puncher Roy was.
> The only guys he did not stop from middleweight to smw were Hopkins, Toney, McCallum, Fermin Chirino and Jorge Fernando Castro.
> 3 of these guys were never stopped and known for their iron chin.
> Fernando also had an iron chin and it took a hard punching cruiserweight Carlos Gomez to stop a 35 year old Castro and another hard punching lhw Herrara stopped a 40 year old Jorge, Jirov could not finish a 36 year old Castro.
> Only Chirino did not have an iron chin of the bunch.
> 
> I legitimately think people have watched Roy from the Ruiz and Tarver fights.
> 
> 90% KO ratio, as high as Golovkin and he still got criticized for not taking enough chances.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Flea Man said:


> And if anyone thinks I 'hate Jones' ask @Hands of Iron


You've described yourself as a _fan_ and called him the best you've ever seen on film, or if not up there with the likes of: Chang, Duran and Robinson.

I think that is basically turbo's statement with the thread here. Start getting into resumes though, greatness how it's ordinarily defined and Jones starts to slide and lose quite a lot of leverage. I do love his top wins though and that along with his utter dominance and sheer ability puts him at #2 just behind Whitaker as far as 'In my lifetime' fighters go. I could see him in the Top 25-30 on an ATG list depending on what you emphasize.


----------



## Flea Man

Hands of Iron said:


> You've described yourself as a _fan_ and called him the best you've ever seen on film, or if not up there with the likes of: Chang, Duran and Robinson.
> 
> I think that is basically turbo's statement with the thread here. Start getting into resumes though, greatness how it's ordinarily defined and Jones starts to slide and lose quite a lot of leverage. I do love his top wins though and that along with his utter dominance and sheer ability puts him at #2 just behind Whitaker as far as 'In my lifetime' fighters go. I could see him in the Top 25-30 on an ATG list depending on what you emphasize.


A huge fan. He was the fighter that got me seriously into boxing as a kid.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Pedderrs said:


> At no point does Ali-Liston I resemble a fixed fight. The rematch is tainted, but Liston appeared to try everything possible to win the first time around.
> 
> So, yeah, better than anything Jones ever achieved in the squared circle.


Since when is Liston P4P better than Toney/Hopkins?



tommygun711 said:


> slip ups against Cooper and Doug Jones dont really hurt Ali in the grand scheme of things because he still won those fights.
> 
> beating a wrecking machine in ATG Liston is more impressive than beating green hopkins (who would go onto improve post the Jones fight) and drained Toney who didn't look himself.


Liston fans (not many) and Ali detractors (more of them) will argue Liston was past prime. In all cases Liston/Hopkins/Toney the ATG loser stepped up to overwhelming speed.



tommygun711 said:


> Yeah that is another big deal. Even when past prime Ali didn't get KO'd by a fighter the caliber of Glen Johnson or Antonio Tarver. This ranks into their legacies as well.
> 
> When Ali's reflexes and speed faded, he was still able to be the best in his division. Jones wasn't. He didn't have Ali's chin.


This is a myth, firstly Roy picked up his first real loss at 35 to a man he'd already beaten. By this time Ali had lost to Frazier and Norton (should have been 2 or even 3 times) and arguably lost to Shavers and Young by this age. By the age of 36 he would be losing to Leon Spinks. Only Frazier out of those is clearly above Tarver, Norton being on a similar level



tommygun711 said:


> Well first of all if you are just going with H2H greatness, Ali should be favored over any heavyweight ever. Comparatively speaking there are quite a few middleweights and light heavyweights that would arguably beat Jones*. Bob Foster, Michael Spinks, Floyd Patterson, Dwight Qawi, Ezzard Charles, and Harold Johnson would all be favored to beat Roy at light heavyweight IMO, among others. Hagler, Monzon and Robinson would have great chances to beat Roy at MW. I'd say he is definitely top 5 H2H at middleweight though. Not too many would beat him there.
> *
> In order to be considered the best H2H fighter of all time you have to have the resume to back it up. You have to be battle tested. I've already picked apart Roy's resume so I won't bother with that. Ali is battle tested and there is no doubt at all that Ali has one of the best resume's ever. The same cannot be said for Roy.


I don't think any come close to beating RJJ and I think he KOs some and shuts a few of them out. For instance Monzon's way too slow, Hagler lost to RJJ lite and Robinson is basically a tooth pick at MW. Patterson at LHW was what 20 or 21? No chance he made all kind of mistakes in his prime.

On another note some would pick certain HWs over Ali too.



dyna said:


> "To be honest, I don't even think Qawi or Muhummad were *better* Light Heavyweights than Virgil Hill"
> 
> Sure, Virgil Hill has a lot more fights at lhw than Qawi, he also has a lot more title defences.
> But he's not better.
> 
> I don't think Qawi could have had the reign Virgil Hill had, he would eat his way out of the division eventually.
> But when you put a prime Qawi infront of each and every opponent I would favour him over everyone but Roy Jones.


I wouldn't disagree with someone saying Qawi was better but in what aspect? I used to be a big Qawi fan but I do think he's overrated. Ultimately he's a midget that would get picked off and tied up by the top men who were longer/taller and yes I know he took a fair few of those down a peg or 2. What Spinks did against him was nothing special, it was just taller man tactics.



tommygun711 said:


> The thing I noticed about Roy with his jab is that when he used it, it had a really low connect percentage. Obviously he didn't need one, judging by his career lol.
> 
> Against Qawi he would most definitely need one though. You absolutely need one to outbox Qawi, ala Michael Spinks, otherwise you will have to deal with Qawi on the inside.
> 
> I don't think any of what I'm saying is unreasonable. I just think with Qawi's style and toughness that he would pin Jones on the ropes and damage him one way or another, even if he doesn't beat him (which I think he would).


Why would if he's landing clean lead hooks and rights and not getting hit?



LittleRed said:


> Ok. That's fair. But why isn't Jones penalized for the fight when he tested positive for a banned substance? I'm sure they would both plead ignorance. Isn't that unfair to penalize one for using an illegal substance but not the other.


It's on record Ali used ban substances for what it's worth. We never got the release of what Jones tested positive for and whether it was both samples who tested positive. Was it ephedrine or testdtest ratio or nandrolone or what? It never got released. The commissioner who wrote the letter didn't seem to know what Jones tested positive for.


----------



## PityTheFool

Fucking RJJ-lite!!! :bogo


----------



## Powerpuncher

PityTheFool said:


> Fucking RJJ-lite!!! :bogo


:lol: he was lighter to be fair. Put up dukes to pose with Ray, gutted I only got a pic of us shaking hands.


----------



## PityTheFool

Powerpuncher said:


> :lol: he was lighter to be fair. Put up dukes to pose with Ray, gutted I only got a pic of us shaking hands.


I got the dukes! :happy


----------



## Pedderrs

Powerpuncher said:


> Since when is Liston P4P better than Toney/Hopkins?


Liston on the night of the first Ali fight was more a accomplished and a more formidable fighter than Hopkins was in '93 in my opinion.

Toney tends to get a bit overrated on these forums. He wasn't always firing on all cylinders and I think the drained excuse have some validity. In any event, I was more impressed with the manner in which Ali dismantled Liston than I was watching Jones-Toney.

So yeah, I take Ali's achievement at dismantling and embarrassing the very dominant Sonny Liston in '64 over anything Jones did in his career.


----------



## Flea Man

'Toney was weight drained'!

'Looked amazing versus Prince Charles and Barkley'

Sounds legit.


----------



## dyna

Flea Man said:


> 'Toney was weight drained'!
> 'Looked amazing versus Prince Charles and Barkley'
> Sounds legit.


A fighter is only drained when he loses.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> 'Toney was weight drained'!
> 
> 'Looked amazing versus Prince Charles and Barkley'
> 
> Sounds legit.


Oh yes, I forgot. These sort of excuses are reserved for Roberto Duran exclusively. :lol:


----------



## tliang1000

dyna said:


> A fighter is only drained when he loses.


ikr


----------



## Powerpuncher

Pedderrs said:


> Liston on the night of the first Ali fight was more a accomplished and a more formidable fighter than Hopkins was in '93 in my opinion.
> 
> Toney tends to get a bit overrated on these forums. He wasn't always firing on all cylinders and I think the drained excuse have some validity. In any event, I was more impressed with the manner in which Ali dismantled Liston than I was watching Jones-Toney.
> 
> So yeah, I take Ali's achievement at dismantling and embarrassing the very dominant Sonny Liston in '64 over anything Jones did in his career.


Liston had certainly achieved more than Hopkins, I suppose. The question is how far do you think he was from the fighter who would go onto achieve greatness and dominance? He was technically very good, the best stamina he'd have in his career, as fast as he'd be in his career but skills and tactically he became somewhat more composed. It depends on after watching his career you objectively think he was away from his best at that stage. The Mercado 1 draw is often thrown up as a reason for him not being prime but if you watch the fight, throwing about 90 to 100 punches a round at altitude and dominated aside from the couple of knock downs he suffered. You have to make a personal opinion on the value of 1993 Hopkins, 2002 Hopkins didn't seem to think he was better placed to avenge the defeat though.

I think Toney's inconsistent more than overrated. Forums aside Toney and Whitaker were vying it out for P4P no1 at this time and Toney had a fine resume highlighted by McCallum and Nunn aside from all the decent belt holders and contenders he beat. Not many MW champions can boast such a resume.

RE: Toney being drained, he was likely always somewhat drained and underprepared because he's a lazy guy. He had great performances against Prince Charles Williams and Barkley shortly before this bout. He was tight at the weight but that's part of boxing, countless boxers have starved themselves to make weight. Lamotta was tight at the weight for Robinson 5, no one downplays the win.

Ali's Liston win is more exciting than either of Jones best scalps, but his opponent ultimately quit with a shoulder injury, depending whether you buy that or not. Liston was much slower and much easier to hit than either of those 2 but much more deadly. It made a more excitiing lightening versus thunder match up. It wasn't necessarily a more dominant performance though.



PityTheFool said:


> I got the dukes! :happy


Well played :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> 'Toney was weight drained'!
> 
> 'Looked amazing versus Prince Charles and Barkley'
> 
> Sounds legit.


:lol:


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> Oh yes, I forgot. These sort of excuses are reserved for Roberto Duran exclusively. :lol:


That wasn't my point.

Those two were dragged down from light heavy to fight Toney at 168. But no one ever takes credit from Toney for those wins (considered among his best) like they do with Roy.


----------



## VG_Addict

What if Roy moved up to CW, and fought Jirov and Juan Carlos Gomez?


----------



## Hands of Iron

Pedderrs said:


> Oh forgot. These sort of excuses are reserved for Roberto Duran exclusively. :lol:


Shut up.

Several tiers seperate Duran and Chavez, nevermind Barrera. :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Shut up.
> 
> Several tiers seperate Duran and Chavez, nevermind Barrera. :lol:


:bbb


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> :bbb


I'm sure Pedderrs will address it in a completely serious manner. :lol:

Dudes need to chill 'round here.

Remember: We're all gonna die anyway.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm sure Pedderrs will address it in a completely serious manner. :lol:
> 
> Dudes need to chill 'round here.
> 
> Remember: We're all gonna die anyway.


 @Powerpuncher had a great post


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> @Powerpuncher had a great post


I'm not in the frame of mind right now to hold up a serious debate with you lot.

If you want to talk about like: bodybuilding, nutrition or sprint car racing and stuff I'm down. How you guys stay plugged into the boxing matrix at all times I'll never know. Just love it a lot more I guess.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm not in the frame of mind right now to hold up a serious debate with you lot.
> 
> If you want to talk about like: bodybuilding, nutrition or sprint car racing and stuff I'm down. How you guys stay plugged into the boxing matrix at all times I'll never know. Just love it a lot more I guess.


Its wild. I literally dont post anywhere else, FB, Youtube, nothing. its my "thing"


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> Its wild. I literally dont post anywhere else, FB, Youtube, nothing. its my "thing"


I just have a lot of shit I'm into of equal or greater measure than boxing. I virtually have to forget about it for long periods before the interest comes back to me.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> I just have a lot of shit I'm into of equal or greater measure than boxing. I virtually have to forget about it for long periods before the interest comes back to me.


You have the fam and such too


----------



## dyna

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm not in the frame of mind right now to hold up a serious debate with you lot.
> 
> If you want to talk about like: bodybuilding, nutrition or sprint car racing and stuff I'm down. How you guys stay plugged into the boxing matrix at all times I'll never know. Just love it a lot more I guess.


Boxing doesn't take much time, you don't even need to watch any fights at all except for the highlight music videos on youtube.
Just let the fingers dance on the keyboard and pray someone agrees with you.

:lol:


----------



## turbotime

dyna said:


> Boxing doesn't take much time, you don't even need to watch any fights at all except for the highlight music videos on youtube.
> Just let the fingers dance on the keyboard and pray someone agrees with you.
> 
> :lol:


:lol: I'm down with this. Thankfully Gramps sat me in front of the tv and made me watch


----------



## Hands of Iron

dyna said:


> Boxing doesn't take much time, you don't even need to watch any fights at all except for the highlight music videos on youtube.
> Just let the fingers dance on the keyboard and pray someone agrees with you.
> 
> :lol:


You are terrible! :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> You have the fam and such too


Smartphone makes it easier. If I had to sit in front of an actual computer I probably wouldn't have more than 10-15 minutes to spare on here.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> Smartphone makes it easier. If I had to sit in front of an actual computer I probably wouldn't have more than 10-15 minutes to spare on here.


:yep


----------



## turbotime

I'm figghting with myself over Shane.


----------



## Hands of Iron

turbotime said:


> I'm figghting with myself over Shane.


What you mean?


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

Too many unanswered questions regarding Roid for me. I need to see him against Marco Huck first, then I'll decide whether he's good enough to gain my approval.

On the other hand, I'm a huge fan of his music:


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Too many unanswered questions regarding Roid for me. I need to see him against Marco Huck first, then I'll decide whether he's good enough to gain my approval.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm a huge fan of his music:


:-(


----------



## LittleRed

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm not in the frame of mind right now to hold up a serious debate with you lot.
> 
> If you want to talk about like: bodybuilding, nutrition or sprint car racing and stuff I'm down. How you guys stay plugged into the boxing matrix at all times I'll never know. Just love it a lot more I guess.


Who's your favorite old school bodybuilder. And I mean pre Frank Zane. Reeves? Eugene Sandow? George Hackenschmidt?

Or are you a modernist snob who hates their leg development?


----------



## Pedderrs

Powerpuncher said:


> Liston had certainly achieved more than Hopkins, I suppose. The question is how far do you think he was from the fighter who would go onto achieve greatness and dominance? He was technically very good, the best stamina he'd have in his career, as fast as he'd be in his career but skills and tactically he became somewhat more composed. It depends on after watching his career you objectively think he was away from his best at that stage. The Mercado 1 draw is often thrown up as a reason for him not being prime but if you watch the fight, throwing about 90 to 100 punches a round at altitude and dominated aside from the couple of knock downs he suffered. You have to make a personal opinion on the value of 1993 Hopkins, 2002 Hopkins didn't seem to think he was better placed to avenge the defeat though.


Far enough that I can't possibly consider a '93 Hopkins a better scalp than '64 Liston, who was coming off two wrecking ball displays against Floyd Patterson for the Heavyweight title.

Hopkins was no Olympian. He had no Amateur experience post-prison and therefore needed a few years in the Pro game before he could fully refine his skill set.



> I think Toney's inconsistent more than overrated. Forums aside Toney and Whitaker were vying it out for P4P no1 at this time and Toney had a fine resume highlighted by McCallum and Nunn aside from all the decent belt holders and contenders he beat. Not many MW champions can boast such a resume.


Toney is held in very high regard by some of the posters here at CHB. I can fully understand why that would be, he was an incredibly gifted fighter, but I think a lot of what is said about him is disproportionate to what he actually achieved during his supposed best days. You get the sense that Toney could have been a lot more than he amounted to had his attitude been a little more professional.



> Ali's Liston win is more exciting than either of Jones best scalps, but his opponent ultimately quit with a shoulder injury, depending whether you buy that or not. Liston was much slower and much easier to hit than either of those 2 but much more deadly. It made a more excitiing lightening versus thunder match up. It wasn't necessarily a more dominant performance though.


A 22 year old Cassius Clay dismantled and embarrassed a dominant and seasoned champion in Sonny Liston. The fight eventually ended as a result of a supposed shoulder injury but you can't discount what had preceded that. Clay was in complete and utter control and was surely on his way to a lopsided points win or late stoppage. Truth be told, that's probably why Liston went out the way he did. The guy quit.

I suppose I can see an argument for the Toney win perhaps being equal, but a '93 Hopkins? No, I can't accept that. The footage clearly shows him to be a lesser fighter to the one that would later develop into a long-reigning champ at 160lbs.



> That wasn't my point.
> 
> Those two were dragged down from light heavy to fight Toney at 168. But no one ever takes credit from Toney for those wins (considered among his best) like they do with Roy.


That's because few people even care about those wins. You often hear about the Barkley fight but it's the performance that impressed people, not the fact that Barkley was beaten. A guy like Barkley was made to order for Toney.


----------



## Powerpuncher

LittleRed said:


> Who's your favorite old school bodybuilder. And I mean pre Frank Zane. Reeves? Eugene Sandow? George Hackenschmidt?
> 
> Or are you a modernist snob who hates their leg development?


My grandad used to goto school with an old school Top British bodybuilder of his era (50s I think) who was pre Arnie but I think either trained with or was inspiration for Arnie. I forget his name now, he was the only lad in school who used to get the better of grandad over the running running events though, so his legs can't have been that bad :lol:


----------



## VG_Addict

What if Roy fought and beat Chris Byrd for the IBF strap, thus becoming a unified champion?

Would that make him a top 10 ATG?


----------



## tommygun711

VG_Addict said:


> What if Roy fought and beat Chris Byrd for the IBF strap, thus becoming a unified champion?
> 
> Would that make him a top 10 ATG?


No. it would be a good achievement though.


----------



## Leftsmash

Flea Man said:


> That wasn't my point.
> 
> Those two were dragged down from light heavy to fight Toney at 168. But no one ever takes credit from Toney for those wins (considered among his best) like they do with Roy.


@Pedders
Well is dragged down fair to say? Barkley was holding the IBF SMW title after beating Van Horn and still was the title holder when he beat Heanrs the 2nd time at Light Heavy 2 months later. Toney vs Barkley was alright considering he was still holding the title.


----------



## dyna

Leftsmash said:


> @Pedders
> Well is dragged down fair to say? Barkley was holding the IBF SMW title after beating Van Horn and still was the title holder when he beat Heanrs the 2nd time at Light Heavy 2 months later. Toney vs Barkley was alright considering he was still holding the title.


And Toney was also holding that title when he fought Roy.
So there is a double standard going on.


----------



## Leftsmash

dyna said:


> And Toney was also holding that title when he fought Roy.
> So there is a double standard going on.


Agreed.


----------



## Flea Man

Leftsmash said:


> Agreed.


Which is my point exactly.


----------



## Leftsmash

Flea Man said:


> Which is my point exactly.


I agree with how credit is taken from Roy for that win but I just didn't think that Barkley being dragged down was correct given he went for the SMW belt and made the decision to fight Hearns at 175. I'm not disagreeing on the idea that he could of been drained for that match. That said I don't hold the Barkley win that well, it was a good display of all the good things about Toney as a fighter and his skills on display but I'd be inclined to rate his win over Sosa as superior.


----------



## Flea Man

Leftsmash said:


> I agree with how credit is taken from Roy for that win but I just didn't think that Barkley being dragged down was correct given he went for the SMW belt and made the decision to fight Hearns at 175. I'm not disagreeing on the idea that he could of been drained for that match. That said I don't hold the Barkley win that well, it was a good display of all the good things about Toney as a fighter and his skills on display but I'd be inclined to rate his win over Sosa as superior.


I don't think you're grasping my point too well mate. I'm not even contesting Barkley would've been weight drained, only that it's often one-sided and Roy gets credit taken away whereas Toney doesn't yet the argument could easily be made.

Anyway, fact is that Barkley was the light heavyweight champion. In terms of accomplished scalps, it is one of Toney's best.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> Anyway, fact is that Barkley was the light heavyweight champion. In terms of accomplished scalps, it is one of Toney's best.


I wonder if you'd be holding Barkley in such high regard if Duran hadn't outpointed him.

But nah, on a serious note, Barkley was made to order for Toney and it's not a great achievement all things considered.

Do you think Jones beating Toney was a greater achievement than 22 year old Clay whoopin' Liston in '64? How about the Hopkins win?


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> I wonder if you'd be holding Barkley in such high regard if Duran hadn't outpointed him.
> 
> But nah, on a serious note, Barkley was made to order for Toney and it's not a great achievement all things considered.
> 
> Do you think Jones beating Toney was a greater achievement than 22 year old Clay whoopin' Liston in '64? How about the Hopkins win?


No I don't.

Barkley wasn't great. But he was good, and big. And he beat Hearns twice, so he was World class, if limited.

Kalambay beat him as well :yep In fact, you gave Barkley more credit in that one than I did!


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> No I don't.
> 
> Barkley wasn't great. But he was good, and big. And he beat Hearns twice, so he was World class, if limited.
> 
> Kalambay beat him as well :yep In fact, you gave Barkley more credit in that one than I did!


I thought Barkley was more competitive than you did, that's all. Sumbu won the fight clearly.

In regards to your issue with the double standard, I don't think anybody really cares whether or not Barkley turned up at 100% because most people, myself included, don't think it would have made much difference even if he had. In contrast, I think there's a general feeling among a lot of Boxing fans that the best possible Toney wouldn't have been beaten so conclusively as he was against Jones, and therefore they look at the weight-drained excuse as being a possible reason for why the fight was so one-sided.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Flea Man said:


> No I don't.
> 
> Barkley wasn't great. But he was good, and big. And he beat Hearns twice, *so he was World class*, if limited.
> 
> Kalambay beat him as well :yep In fact, you gave Barkley more credit in that one than I did!


Iran Barkley has never been world class, limited world class, whatever you want to call it. If we're being honest, he was a career journeyman.

Tyson lost to Buster Douglass. Wlad lost to Cory Sanders, etc... Things happen, it doesn't make said fighters "world class".


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Iran Barkley was like a Bert Cooper; nothing world class about it. A good stepping stone jouneyman at most.


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Iran Barkley has never been world class. If we're being honest, he was a career journeyman.
> 
> Tyson lost to Buster Douglass. Wlad lost to Cory Sanders, etc... Things happen, it doesn't make said fighters "world class".


I don't think it's fair to call a 3-weight World Champion with two wins over Thomas Hearns and numerous other competitive fights with the likes of Sumbu Kalambay, Roberto Duran, Nigel Benn and Michael Nunn as being a career Journeyman.



> Iran Barkley was like a Bert Cooper; nothing world class about it. A good stepping stone jouneyman at most.


Who did Bert Cooper beat?


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Pedderrs said:


> I don't think it's fair to call a 3-weight World Champion with two wins over Thomas Hearns and numerous other competitive fights with the likes of Sumbu Kalambay, Roberto Duran, Nigel Benn and Michael Nunn as being a career Journeyman.
> 
> Who did Bert Cooper beat?


Oh my God, now we're gonna call Iran Barkley world class... I don't care about being "competitive". Heck, Bert Cooper was very "competitive" with Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer. Hell, Cooper almost stopped both guys. It still doesn't change the fact that he was a journeyman who was nothing more than a step up.

Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall KO'd Lennox Lewis; things happen... BTW, the Tommy Hearns Iran Barkley beat, was not the WW/JMW that made a name off of taking SRL to hell and back. Let's be clear on that.

Bredis Prescott KO'd Amir Khan, I don't care if he beats Amir Khan a second time, Bredis Prescott will never be more than a career journeyman.

Dennis Grachev arguably beat Bute or was "very competitive" as you might put it and also beat Ismail Sillahk and Zsolt Erdei ..

I can do this all day. No matter what you say or how you try to cut it, if you were alive and followed boxing at that time, you'd know although Barkley was competitive in some bouts, he was a journeyman.


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Oh my God, now we're gonna call Iran Barkley world class... I don't care about being "competitive". Heck, Bert Cooper was very "competitive" with Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer. Hell, Cooper almost stopped both guys. It still doesn't change the fact that he was a journeyman who was nothing more than a step up.


I haven't called Iran Barkley "world class", but I wouldn't call him a Journeyman either.

Cooper was never a World Champion and never defeated any real fighters of note. Barkley was a multiple World Champion who did beat fighters of note.



> Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall KO'd Lennox Lewis; things happen... BTW, the Tommy Hearns Iran Barkley beat, was not the WW/JMW that made a name off of taking SRL to hell and back. Let's be clear on that.


Thomas Hearns wasn't at his peak but he was still a World level fighter when he was knocked spark out by Barkley in '88. It's a very good win.



> Bredis Prescott KO'd Amir Khan, I don't care if he beats Amir Khan a second time, Bredis Prescott will never be more than a career journeyman.


Singular win, an isolated incident that has never come close to being repeated again.



> I can do this all day. No matter what you say or how you try to cut it, if you were alive and followed boxing at that time, you'd know although Barkley was competitive in some bouts, he was a journeyman.


He was a three-time World Champion with notable wins and notable performances.

What is your definition of a Journeyman?


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Pedderrs said:


> I haven't called Iran Barkley "world class", but I wouldn't call him a Journeyman either.
> 
> Cooper was never a World Champion and never defeated any real fighters of note. Barkley was a multiple World Champion who did beat fighters of note.
> 
> Thomas Hearns wasn't at his peak but he was still a World level fighter when he was knocked spark out by Barkley in '88. It's a very good win.
> 
> Singular win, an isolated incident that has never come close to being repeated again.
> 
> He was a three-time World Champion with notable wins and notable performances.
> 
> What is your definition of a Journeyman?


You keep mentioning this 3 class world champion deal. Two of those belts he won was against Hearns. The other belt was against Gerrie Coetzee for the "World Boxing Board Heavyweight Title". He won the SMW IBF title against Darrin Van Horn who is honestly a guy I've never even heard of.

My definitition of a journeyman is a guy like Carlos Baldomir even though he beat Judah and Gatti. To me, back in the day, a journeyman was a guy that real world champions would go against as "stay busy" fights or heavily favorite "up and comers" would fight on their way up. Iran Barkley was the absolute definition.

Everyone knows Barkley wasn't supposed to beat Hearns because everyone knew, at the time, Iran Barkley was a journeyman. Heck, he probably got "upset of the year" both times because everyone knew Hearns was supposed to win.


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> You keep mentioning this 3 class world champion deal. Two of those belts he won was against Hearns. The other belt was against Gerrie Coetzee for the "World Boxing Board Heavyweight Title". He won the SMW IBF title against Darrin Van Horn who is honestly a guy I've never even heard of.
> 
> My definitition of a journeyman is a guy like Carlos Baldomir even though he beat Judah and Gatti. To me, back in the day, a journeyman was a guy that real world champions would go against as "stay busy" fights or heavily favorite "up and comers" would fight on their way up. Iran Barkley was the absolute definition.
> 
> Everyone knows Barkley wasn't supposed to beat Hearns because everyone knew, at the time, Iran Barkley was a journeyman. Heck, he probably got "upset of the year" both times because everyone knew Hearns was supposed to win.


A Journeyman to me is a fighter who isn't in contention for World Titles and, as you say, is used effectively as cannon fodder for up and comers so they can make a name for themselves or so established World titlists can "keep busy".

Barkley clearly was in contention for World Titles. Yes, occasionally a Journeyman will cause an upset and win a title by fluke, but Iran Barkley won multiple titles. He could have beaten Nigel Benn and Roberto Duran. He fought Nunn and Kalambay and gave good accounts of himself on both occasions.

I have no desire to debate this point any longer though. We can agree to disagree. I'm not agreeing with Flea in calling him World Class, but he was a level above the types of fighters who turned up to lose and who never came close to a World Title.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Pedderrs said:


> A Journeyman to me is a fighter who isn't in contention for World Titles and, as you say, is used effectively as cannon fodder for up and comers so they can make a name for themselves or so established World titlists can "keep busy".
> 
> Barkley clearly was in contention for World Titles. Yes, occasionally a Journeyman will cause an upset and win a title by fluke, but Iran Barkley won multiple titles. He could have beaten Nigel Benn and Roberto Duran. He fought Nunn and Kalambay and gave good accounts of himself on both occasions.
> 
> I have no desire to debate this point any longer though. We can agree to disagree. I'm not agreeing with Flea in calling him World Class, but he was a level above the types of fighters who turned up to lose and who never came close to a World Title.


Yea man, we'll have to disagree on this one because Barkley will always be Bert Cooper tier fighter in my book.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Yea man, we'll have to disagree on this one because Barkley will always be Bert Cooper tier fighter in my book.


lol


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> lol


You don't think Iran Barkley was considered a journeyman or "slightly" better than a journyman going into his first bout with Tommy Hearns?

I can show you at least one article that will confirm this at the time during the 80's.

Bert Cooper was a few punches away from stopping Holyfield and Michael Moorer and was pretty damn competitive with Ray Mercer. Do you contest this?


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> You don't think Iran Barkley was considered a journeyman or "slightly" better than a journyman going into his first bout with Tommy Hearns?
> 
> Bert Cooper was a few punches away from stopping Holyfield and Michael Moorer and was pretty damn competitive with Ray Mercer. Do you contest this?


I think Barkley is better than Cooper.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> I think Barkley is better than Cooper.


Was Iran Barkley considered a journeyman or no?

Barkley and Cooper are the same tier.

Cooper went life and death with prime Holyfield and Michael Moorer and beat Henry Tillman for the cruiserweight title and fought a war with Ray Mercer. He lost all 3 bouts, but still.

Iran Barkley was journeyman that beat Tommy Hearns. No better than the previous journeyman I mentioned in this thread that provided upsets.

Heck, Emmanual Augustus fought in a war with Mayweather; doesn't mean that he's not a journeyman.


----------



## dyna

Cooper always lost to decent fighters. (The best fighter he beat was Joe Hipp)
Barkley also failed often but atleast succeeded from time to time.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

dyna said:


> Cooper always lost to decent fighters. (The best fighter he beat was Joe Hipp)
> Barkley also failed often but atleast succeeded from time to time.


Not everytime. He did beat Henry Tillman


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Not everytime. He did beat Henry Tillman


Tillman is not that good of a win at all.

Barkley beating hearns twice eclipses anything cooper ever did. to be honest they aren't even comparable.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> Tillman is not that good of a win at all.
> 
> Barkley beating hearns twice eclipses anything cooper ever did. to be honest they aren't even comparable.


I was answering his question about Cooper losing every bout. Show me anywhere where I'm comparing Cooper's victory over Henry Tillman to Barkley's over Tommy Hearns.

Barkley obviously has the single better victory, although Cooper was "competitive" with the better opponents in Holyfield, Mercer and Moorer.

It still doesn't change the fact that Hearns got beaten by a journeyman. It's documented. Are you really trying to dispute the journeyman status of Iran Barkley?


----------



## dyna

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Not everytime. He did beat Henry Tillman


Tillman isn't a more decent win than Joe Hipp.
Barkley beat Hearns and then again to prove it was not a fluke.
He also beat a few fighters that are surely on the level of Hipp and Tillman.

Barkley is closer to a fringe contender than a journeyman like Cooper


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> I was answering his question about Cooper losing every bout. Show me anywhere where I'm comparing Cooper's victory over Henry Tillman to Barkley's over Tommy Hearns.
> 
> Barkley obviously has the single better victory, although Cooper was "competitive" with the better opponents in Holyfield, Mercer and Moorer.


Barkley was competitive with Benn, Kalambay, Nunn, Duran, etc so shut the fuck up about being competitive with better opponents. So what if he was competitive? that is the heavyweight division for you. A big puncher can change things quick. What matters in the grand scheme of things is who they actually beat, and beating Hearns twice automatically makes him better than Cooper.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

dyna said:


> Tillman isn't a more decent win than Joe Hipp.
> Barkley beat Hearns and then again to prove it was not a fluke.
> He also beat a few fighters that are surely on the level of Hipp and Tillman.
> 
> Barkley is closer to a fringe contender than a journeyman like Cooper


What's with the comment "beaten Hearns again to prove it wasn't a fluke". Are you saying that by beating Hearns twice that Barkley is a better fighter than Tommy Hearns?

BTW, I'm not sure if you saw the second bout or not, but some could argue it was a robbery. Let's say the decision was heavily disputed.

He was better than the average journeyman I'll give him that; Cooper's showings against Holyfield and Moorer were memorable as was Augustus with Mayweather, as was Douglass with Tyson, as was Grachev with Bute as was Sanders with Wlad.... Still doesn't take away from them being journeyman.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> Barkley was competitive with Benn, Kalambay, Nunn, Duran, etc so shut the fuck up about being competitive with better opponents. So what if he was competitive? that is the heavyweight division for you. A big puncher can change things quick. What matters in the grand scheme of things is who they actually beat, and beating Hearns twice automatically makes him better than Cooper.


Barkley was a journeyman, if you want to say he was a better journeyman than Bert Cooper, oh well.

If you followed boxing at that time in the late 80's, you'd know, Barkley was considered a journeyman, at best, slightly better than journeyman status heading into his bout with Hearns. Everyone knew this at the time.

Hearns lost to a journeyman; stuff happens.


----------



## dyna

BoxingGenius27 said:


> What's with the comment "beaten Hearns again to prove it wasn't a fluke". Are you saying that by beating Hearns twice that Barkley is a better fighter than Tommy Hearns?
> 
> BTW, I'm not sure if you saw the second bout or not, but some could argue it was a robbery. Let's say the decision was heavily disputed.
> 
> He was better than the average journeyman I'll give him that; Cooper's showings against Holyfield and Moorer were memorable as was Augustus with Mayweather, as was Douglass with Tyson, as was Grachev with Bute as was Sanders with Wlad.... Still doesn't take away from them being journeyman.


I didn't say he was better than Hearns, he had the right style to fight him.

James Douglas wasn't a journeyman either, he was a talented guy with motivation issues.
Sanders was also a bit above an average journeyman.

Ross Puritty would have been a much better example as he was a real journeyman.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Barkley was definitely picked as a relatively safe opponent for hearns, but he was a fringe contender with a solid record at that point not a true journeyman like what someone like Sanderline Williams would become, jobbing against fighters with any kind of backing.He cemented his status as a legit top ten contender with the wins over Olajide(one of the most hyped fighters in the division at the time) and Williams which got him another title shot and then remained a contender in title shot contention until the early 90s at supermiddle.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Here's an article from 1989... Not trying to say it's the gospel, but this was common belief on Iran Barkley heading into his bout with Tommy Hearns:

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-02-25/sports/sp-145_1_split-decision

"That was the blow last June that floored Hearns and gave Barkley the WBC title.

*Until then, Barkley was considered little better than a journeyman*. Even in that fight. He was bloodied and bruised in that third round and appeared ready to go until he reversed the course of events with one shocking right hand".


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Here's an article from 1989... Not trying to say it's the gospel, but this was common belief on Iran Barkley heading into his bout with Tommy Hearns:
> 
> http://articles.latimes.com/1989-02-25/sports/sp-145_1_split-decision
> 
> "That was the blow last June that floored Hearns and gave Barkley the WBC title.
> 
> *Until then, Barkley was considered little better than a journeyman*. Even in that fight. He was bloodied and bruised in that third round and appeared ready to go until he reversed the course of events with one shocking right hand".


Fringe contender is the right word you're looking for.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> Fringe contender is the right word you're looking for.


No, it's the right word *you're* looking for. I know what I'm looking for and remember him as for I followed boxing at this time.

I remember Iran Barkley as a journeyman as many other do who just don't want to admit it because it probably takes away from Duran's win at 160. He will always be that in my book.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> No, it's the right word *you're* looking for. I know what I'm looking for and remember him as for I followed boxing at this time.
> 
> I remember Iran Barkley as a journeyman as many other do who just don't want to admit it because it probably takes away from Duran's win at 160. He will always be that in my book.


saying he's "a little better than journeyman" implies hes a fringe contender.


----------



## Bill Jincock

He wasn't still considered a journeyman by anyone with any sense AFTER the Hearns, Williams and Olajide fights.The vast majority saw him as a legit contender that was a level or two below the best at the time, but could give you a tough fight or spring an upset.

Even going into the Kalambay title fight he had been on a run of about 13 odd fights unbeaten over 3-4 years after a debatable decision loss against Eddie Hall.He'd beaten the other fringe contender, former top contender and top 10-15 types he had fought like Sabater, Tinley, Scypion, Kinchen and a fighter who is a much better example of a middleweight journeyman of that era Jorge Amparo.

Then he legitimately earned the Hearns fight after the kalambay loss by beating Williams(before he became a true journeyman) and Olajide, who had only lost to Tate and was still thought of by many of the same people that might have not rated Barkley at the time as one of the top 5 in the division.

That's not the arc of a journeyman regardless of how lowly some thought of him.Barkley was a legit top ten fighter in the late 80s.Nothing to do with making Duran look good, i'm not even sure Roberto really deserved to win that fight tbh.


----------



## Pedderrs

Bill Jincock said:


> He wasn't still considered a journeyman by anyone with any sense AFTER the Hearns, Williams and Olajide fights.The vast majority saw him as a legit contender that was a level or two below the best at the time, but could give you a tough fight or spring an upset.
> 
> Even going into the Kalambay title fight he had been on a run of about 13 odd fights unbeaten over 3-4 years after a debatable decision loss against Eddie Hall.He'd beaten the other fringe contender, former top contender and top 10-15 types he had fought like Sabater, Tinley, Scypion, Kinchen and a fighter who is a much better example of a middleweight journeyman of that era Jorge Amparo.
> 
> Then he legitimately earned the Hearns fight after the kalambay loss by beating Williams(before he became a true journeyman) and Olajide, who had only lost to Tate and was still thought of by many of the same people that might have not rated Barkley at the time as one of the top 5 in the division.
> 
> That's not the arc of a journeyman regardless of how lowly some thought of him.Barkley was a legit top ten fighter in the late 80s.Nothing to do with making Duran look good, i'm not even sure Roberto really deserved to win that fight tbh.


I've never been nearly as big on Duran as the rest of the forums seems to be, but I thought Duran won that fight by at least two clear points. I thought he definitely deserved it.


----------



## Flea Man

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Iran Barkley has never been world class, limited world class, whatever you want to call it. If we're being honest, he was a career journeyman.
> 
> Tyson lost to Buster Douglass. Wlad lost to Cory Sanders, etc... Things happen, it doesn't make said fighters "world class".


He beat Hearns twice at two different weights. One by a Hail Mary, one by a decision.

Oh, right after Hearns was coming off a win over Virgil Hill, who you rate so highly.

Barkley wasn't brilliant, but from Sims to Toney he was a mainstay of the upper echelon of a talent-packed era.


----------



## Flea Man

BoxingGenius27 said:


> No, it's the right word *you're* looking for. I know what I'm looking for and remember him as for I followed boxing at this time.
> 
> I remember Iran Barkley as a journeyman as many other do who just don't want to admit it because it probably takes away from Duran's win at 160. He will always be that in my book.


You said the other day you were born in '83?

Forgive me for not trusting the recollections of a 7-10 year old boxing fan.


----------



## Flea Man

Bill Jincock said:


> He wasn't still considered a journeyman by anyone with any sense AFTER the Hearns, Williams and Olajide fights.The vast majority saw him as a legit contender that was a level or two below the best at the time, but could give you a tough fight or spring an upset.
> 
> Even going into the Kalambay title fight he had been on a run of about 13 odd fights unbeaten over 3-4 years after a debatable decision loss against Eddie Hall.He'd beaten the other fringe contender, former top contender and top 10-15 types he had fought like Sabater, Tinley, Scypion, Kinchen and a fighter who is a much better example of a middleweight journeyman of that era Jorge Amparo.
> 
> Then he legitimately earned the Hearns fight after the kalambay loss by beating Williams(before he became a true journeyman) and Olajide, who had only lost to Tate and was still thought of by many of the same people that might have not rated Barkley at the time as one of the top 5 in the division.
> 
> That's not the arc of a journeyman regardless of how lowly some thought of him.Barkley was a legit top ten fighter in the late 80s.Nothing to do with making Duran look good, i'm not even sure Roberto really deserved to win that fight tbh.


This is an account from someone who lived through the era.

No doubt BoxingGenius will try and quash your opinion.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Flea Man said:


> You said the other day you were born in '83?
> 
> Forgive me for not trusting the recollections of a 7-10 year old boxing fan.


Born in 82... You're forgiven.


----------



## Pedderrs

Flea Man said:


> You said the other day you were born in '83?
> 
> Forgive me for not trusting the recollections of a 7-10 year old boxing fan.


You're just a wee lad yourself, Flea. :lol:


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Flea Man said:


> This is an account from someone who lived through the era.
> 
> No doubt BoxingGenius will try and quash your opinion.


It's not just my opinion. Google "Was Iran Barkley a Journeyman" and you'll find many other people with the same opinion as mine.

Not that it matters, but when boxrec lists the definition of "journeyman", Iran Barkley just happens to be mentioned as an example... So it's not just me saying this.

I'm just sayin, if you choose to think otherwise that's on you. But let's not make it out that there is no way conceivable that Barkley was never a journeyman because that's a flat out lie... It's highly debatable as proven on other boxing forums world wide. If you choose to turn a blind eye to this so be it.


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> It's not just my opinion. Google "Was Iran Barkley a Journeyman" and you'll find many other people with the same opinion as mine.


You just lost by way of self-defeat.



> Not that it matters, but when boxrec lists the definition of "journeyman"


...And again. :sad5


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Pedderrs said:


> You just lost by way of self-defeat.
> 
> ...And again. :sad5


I think I've clearly explained my reasoning several times in this thread. Especially during a conversation you and I had just yesterday. A conversation that you felt the need not to keep entertaining (paraphrasing).

*I don't have the time to keep reiterating my point of view over and over in a thread where all we're debating is journeyman vs fringe contender; which has the difference of $1 bill vs $2 bill - both bills having low very low value in this econom*y... I really don't have time to keep explaining my position on the issue, especially when I'm being made to be the only person with this view point on Iran Barkley. I asked that you use google not because I can't explain my stance on the issue, but so others will see I'm not the only one with this point of view.

Do you realy think I'm not capable of explaining why I think Barkley is a journeyman?


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> I think I've clearly explained my reasoning several times in this thread. Especially during a conversation you and I had yesterday. A conversation that you felt the need not to keep entertaining (paraphrasing).
> 
> I don't have the time to keep reiterating my point of view over and over in a thread where all we're debating is journeyman vs fringe contender; which has the difference of $1 bill vs $2 bill... I really don't have time to keep explaining my position on the issue, especially when I'm being made to have the only person with this view point on Iran Barkley. I asked that you use google not because I can't explain my stance on the issue, but so others will see I'm not the only one with this point of view.
> 
> Do you realy think I'm not capable of explaining why I think Barkley is a journeyman?


You've explained your reasoning - you're right, but if you really explained it nearly as well as you think you did then it begs the question why you're now consulting the likes of Google and Boxrec.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Pedderrs said:


> You've explained your reasoning - you're right, but if you really explained it nearly as well as you think you did then it *begs the question why you're now consulting the likes of Google and Boxrec*.


I just answered that question in the post you just responded too. Once again we're going in circles.

Yesterday we agreed to disagree. I'll let you have the last word then I'm going to walk away from the topic for I don't want to ruin TurboTime 's thread on how great Roy Jones Jr was.


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> I just answered that question in the post you just responded too. Once again we're going in circles.
> 
> Yesterday we agreed to disagree. I'll let you have the last word then I'm going to walk away from the topic for I don't want to ruin TurboTime 's thread on how great Roy Jones Jr was.


It just seems to me that you made your point fairly well the other day on why you consider Barkley to be a journeyman, so I don't know why you're now here again effectively saying, "well, I've just checked Google and Boxrec, and there are other people on the Internet who agree with me...so there!" That doesn't strengthen your position at all, and it just makes it seem as though you've become insecure in your own views.


----------



## VG_Addict

Is Roy Jones a top 10 ATG at LHW?


----------



## Pedderrs

VG_Addict said:


> Is Roy Jones a top 10 ATG at LHW?


A borderline case perhaps.

I'm sure Bill or Flea could give you a better answer to that question though. Or maybe even BoxingGenius once you give him enough time to google _'Is Roy Jones Jr a top 10 ATG at Light Heavyweight?'_


----------



## Powerpuncher

Barkley is a hard 1 to define to be fair. He was losing to all the top top fighters bar Hearns. He won fringe wins but still managed to become a 3 weight champion of sorts. People have labelled Buster Douglas, Rahman and McCall as journeymen and they have similar careers. 

Journeyman meant a fighter who went and constantly fought in an opponents hometown anyway so in theory you could be a contender and a journeyman. Some people define it as someone who loses the majority of their fights and is used as a trial horse, Barkley is certainly way above that level.


----------



## Powerpuncher

VG_Addict said:


> Is Roy Jones a top 10 ATG at LHW?


It depends on criteria. In terms of ability I consider him the best. In terms of dominance in the ring and performances he rates very highly. In terms of greatness of opponents he doesn't rate that highly but in terms of top 10 Ring Ranked wins he has to rate pretty high.

People will say he doesn't have a strong enough resume and then rate Foster/Conn highly aren't wholey consistent as they didn't either.

Tunney too has got a few very good wins at the weight (contentious in Greb's case) but many of his best wins are above the 175 limit. Many of Charles/Conn's/Greb's wins come below 168lbs and they're counted but Jones work at 168lbs is discounted.

People are generally inconsistent when rating Jones.


----------



## turbotime

Primadonna Kool said:


> Roy Jones was the most physically gifted fighter to ever step inside he boxing ring. It is also a massive myth that he had no fundamentals, this is something that people say to sound intelligent. Roy Jones did things Floyd Mayweather could never comprehend, from a technical perspective. Roy Jones operated on a level, of motor co-ordination that has never been seen before......or since!
> 
> Boxing is a physical sport, there are plenty of boxers of there with fundamentals who retired. People make out that its all about skills, listen if this was the case Larry Holmes would still be the heavyweight champion at whatever age he is now. Fighters such as Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins biggest asset are still their athletic ability and motor co-ordination. Once these attribute dramatically decrease, they are both completely wasted.
> 
> Boxing is a physical sport, its not Golf guys.





Primadonna Kool said:


> Its annoying the way people make out guys like Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins don't rely on the superior physical & motor co-ordination abilities. Floyd Maywether's biggest asset, is his spatial awareness, reaction time, speed, athleticism, agility. People don't even know what skills are, you have to have these physiological abilities in order to learn and apply most skills. One does not come without the other, and as soon as Floyd Mayweather dramatically decreases in these areas JUST like Roy Jones did he will be complete wasted.
> 
> In terms of motor co-ordination Roy Jones had the ability to operate pretty much like a machine gun. Guys like Floyd Mayweather & Bernard Hopkins have to constantly reset, reset, reset. Information seemed to be being processed at a alarming rate when Roy Jones was at his peak, i am talking about his body automatically knowing where his centre of mass was! And the body alignment adjustments, which he would subconsciously make in afew hundredths of a second.
> 
> "This is similar what Olympic Gymnast do"..
> 
> When you get athletes like that in he game, the basics are like learning the 2 times table to Albert Einstein. Prince Naseem Hamed also had these abilities, and these athlete's usually get bored with the logical basics, that where created for people..."With no ability".
> 
> Albert Einstein stated that creativity is the highest form of intelligence, because it comes out of the subconscious mind and is not logic based. I can remember a fight when Sugar Ray Leonard was commentating on Roy Jones...
> 
> Sugar Ray Leonard stated..
> 
> "I have never seen a fighter throw that combination, in that situation"
> 
> There are allot of fighters who lack creativity these days, they all operate from a logical perspective.
> 
> Which makes them boring, and predictable.


----------



## Pedderrs

Powerpuncher said:


> People are generally inconsistent when rating Jones.


I don't think it's inconsistency, it's just that - like you say - people rate based on different criteria.

I personally put more stock in resume than anything else, and unfortunately this is where Roy Jones was probably found wanting throughout his career. It's not that his resume is particularly bad, it's actually rather good, but I find it to be disproportionate to virtually every other aspect of his career.

The inevitable argument will be that he defeated young versions of both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins - two of the best fighters that have campaigned over the course of the last 20 years. We've already been through that.


----------



## JUST KOOL

....


----------



## Irländsk

Jones destroyed cab drivers and plumbers with more flair and style than any other boxer in history.
Then he got his glass jaw shattered repeatedly by professional boxers.


----------



## Pedderrs

Irländsk said:


> Jones destroyed cab drivers and plumbers with more flair and style than any other boxer in history.
> Then he got his glass jaw shattered repeatedly by professional boxers.


:lol:


----------



## Dedication

Irländsk said:


> Jones destroyed cab drivers and plumbers with more flair and style than any other boxer in history.
> Then he got his glass jaw shattered repeatedly by professional boxers.


:lol:


----------



## turbotime

Irländsk said:


> Jones destroyed cab drivers and plumbers with more flair and style than any other boxer in history.
> Then he got his glass jaw shattered repeatedly by professional boxers.


 a Wild Kessler nuthugger appears!


----------



## Powerpuncher

Pedderrs said:


> I don't think it's inconsistency, it's just that - like you say - people rate based on different criteria.
> 
> I personally put more stock in resume than anything else, and unfortunately this is where Roy Jones was probably found wanting throughout his career. It's not that his resume is particularly bad, it's actually rather good, but I find it to be disproportionate to virtually every other aspect of his career.
> 
> The inevitable argument will be that he defeated young versions of both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins - two of the best fighters that have campaigned over the course of the last 20 years. We've already been through that.


His resume beyond that is seriously underrated Toney and Hopkins aside though. I can deconstruct it if you want me too but the more you look at the careers of some of his opponents and the more you find out about them the higher you have to rate them even if they aren't all household names. McCallum for instance is written off because he's 39 and he lost a year before to Tiozzo, but he has a very good case for beating Tiozzo if you view the fight, which was one the Frenchman's home turf.


----------



## Irländsk

Eric Lucas was installing a water heater at a friend's house a few weeks after his fight with Jones and he didn't rate him in the top 3 of guys he had fought.


----------



## Pedderrs

Powerpuncher said:


> His resume beyond that is seriously underrated Toney and Hopkins aside though, I can deconstruct it if you want me too but the more you look at the careers of some of his opponents are far better the more you find out about them to be even if they aren't all household names. McCallum for instance is written off because he's 39 and he lost a year before to Tiozzo, but he has a very good case for beating Tiozzo if you view the fight, which was one the Frenchman's home turf.


You're extremely good at devising arguments to suit your agenda, PP. I know this well. However, irrespective of whatever angle you choose to take regarding the Jones-McCallum win, it doesn't change the fact that McCallum was pushing 40 years old and was no longer a great fighter. It's not a noteworthy achievement.

Jones' resume is very good, I have conceded that, but is it among the very best of all time? Absolutely not - not even with PP's special slants.


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> You're extremely good at devising arguments to suit your agenda, PP. I know this well. However, irrespective of whatever angle you choose to take regarding the Jones-McCallum win, it doesn't change the fact that McCallum was pushing 40 years old and was no longer a great fighter. It's not a noteworthy achievement.
> 
> Jones' resume is very good, I have conceded that, but is it among the very best of all time? Absolutely not - not even with PP's special slants.


And was a couple weight classes past his best. Lhw mccallum is no good.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Pedderrs said:


> You're extremely good at devising arguments to suit your agenda, PP. I know this well. However, irrespective of whatever angle you choose to take regarding the Jones-McCallum win, it doesn't change the fact that McCallum was pushing 40 years old and was no longer a great fighter. It's not a noteworthy achievement.
> 
> Jones' resume is very good, I have conceded that, but is it among the very best of all time? Absolutely not - not even with PP's special slants.


McCallum was not great at that stage but the point is he has a case for being 1 of the top players at 175 at this time. An old great is still a good win, Marciano's best wins were maybe old but they still good wins. McCallum also beat Collins, so did Reggie Johnson who was prime and McCallum was 4 years removed from arguably beating Toney as was Reggie Johnson. Overall he got the better of Toney in their first 2 fights imo. Hill's another who was past prime but a champion for 10 years.

No I don't think Jones's resume is the best of all time but technicians are underrated and Jones beat allot of them, observe:

Tarver - next champ
Griffin - won 2 disputable fights with Toney
Harding - beat Griffin and Tarver
Reggie Johnson - had a good case to be undefeated when he fought Jones having beat Collins and has a case for beating Toney
Malinga - beat Benn after the McClellan win but also according to the British commentators was robbed in their first match before the McClellan fight. Had a close controversial decision against Eubank too
Gonzalez - beat Dariusz after losing every round to Jones
Woods - beat Gonzalez and Glen Johnson (I thought Johnson won but it was close)
Sosa - KO'd Ex Champ Charles Williams
Lucas - would beat Beyer for the WBC title

According to his detractors he was avoiding Dariusz, McClellan, Eubank and Benn but he was beating fighters who were either on par or better than them at the time. His problem was after Toney there just weren't any big money super fights or rivalry.


----------



## Flea Man

Pedderrs said:


> A borderline case perhaps.
> 
> I'm sure Bill or Flea could give you a better answer to that question though. Or maybe even BoxingGenius once you give him enough time to google _'Is Roy Jones Jr a top 10 ATG at Light Heavyweight?'_


Borderline for me. It's arguable.


----------



## Kid Generic Alias

Powerpuncher is talking absolute bollocks and hasn't really seen the Tiozzo fight. McCallum faded badly over the second half of the fight and clearly lost.


----------



## tommygun711

@Powerpuncher do you really think Woods, Malinga and Harding are great quality wins?


----------



## Powerpuncher

tommygun711 said:


> @Powerpuncher do you really think Woods, Malinga and Harding are great quality wins?


Good but not great, which is what most champions build their legacy on. Louis didn't beat any truly great fighters imo.

Harding at his best is 1 of Jones better wins, he wasn't the same after the shoulder injury but arguably better than Tarver, I mean he beat him.



Kid Generic Alias said:


> Powerpuncher is talking absolute bollocks and hasn't really seen the Tiozzo fight. McCallum faded badly over the second half of the fight and clearly lost.


In your world where missed punches count for something. In the real world Tiozzo looked an amateur at times. Why not use your real alias you virgin.


----------



## turbotime

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Powerpuncher is talking absolute bollocks and hasn't really seen the Tiozzo fight. McCallum faded badly over the second half of the fight and clearly lost.


His McCallum win isn't rated that highly.


----------



## tommygun711

Powerpuncher said:


> Good but not great, which is what most champions build their legacy on. Louis didn't beat any truly great fighters imo.
> 
> Harding at his best is 1 of Jones better wins, he wasn't the same after the shoulder injury but arguably better than Tarver, I mean he beat him.


Louis beat Schmeling and Baer who are two great fighters, Baer is a borderline case but I think he is a great fighter too.. at the very least a huge puncher. but i get what you mean. Roy has a decent amount of depth to his resume. I think a lot of the wins you mentioned are nothing special though.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Louis beat Schmeling and Baer who are two great fighters, Baer is a borderline case but I think he is a great fighter too.. at the very least a huge puncher. but i get what you mean. Roy has a decent amount of depth to his resume. I think a lot of the wins you mentioned are nothing special though.


Schmeling a great? Tough call


----------



## tommygun711

turbotime said:


> Schmeling a great? Tough call


I think they both barely make it, m8


----------



## Powerpuncher

tommygun711 said:


> Louis beat Schmeling and Baer who are two great fighters, Baer is a borderline case but I think he is a great fighter too.. at the very least a huge puncher. but i get what you mean. Roy has a decent amount of depth to his resume. I think a lot of the wins you mentioned are nothing special though.


Yes you have to consider Schmelling great off the Louis performance. But let's say Louis was that bit better and never lost to Schmelling. Schmelling wouldn't be considered great. Baer was a brute with a limited skill set and not that tough a 1 imo. But he beat Schmelling so maybe he is great.

That to an extent is my point about Jones, his competition looks poor because he not only didn't lose for 10 years of championship boxing, he rarely lost a round in that time. It just wasn't competitive.

And on that basis doesn't that make Tarver a great for that brief stretch of being the premier LHW? I mean he dethroned Jones, beat Reggie Johnson, Harding, Glen Johnson (twice for me), Griffin. Jones beat him first though when clearly gassed early in the fight. Does that make it a great win?

And if Tarver is a great is a Harding who clearly outboxed him bordering that level?

If Toney is great is a Griffin who has the 2 wins over him bordering greatness? Is Reggie Johnson who boxed on equal terms with Toney bordering that level?

Is Hill great for being a champion for 10 years?

I'm applying the same logic for greatness that you're applying to Schmelling/Baer Hill aside. I don't consider any of those fighters great except for Toney, Schmelling and maybe Tarver. It's subjective though and depends where you want to draw the lines and your criteria. Most of Jones opponents though got 1 chance to prove their greatness against Jones and failed. If Jones wasn't as good maybe they'd be considered 'great'.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> Louis beat Schmeling and Baer who are two great fighters, Baer is a borderline case but I think he is a great fighter too.. at the very least a huge puncher. but i get what you mean. Roy has a decent amount of depth to his resume. I think a lot of the wins you mentioned are nothing special though.


And Schmeling was past prime.
1929-32 was Schmeling his prime, he sort of fell apart between 32 and 34 and then went on to improve a bit again and get his best win, but he was still past prime.
Just like McCallum.

And Gipsy Daniels had also already stopped Schmeling in 1.

Baer was a limited guy, is Paulino Uzcudun also great for beating him?

Louis doesn't really have special wins either, his greatness is his utter domination over top 10 rated opposition.
Not because Schmeling and Baer were such great fighters.

great is when you can be put in a top 100 atg list.
And I don't think Baer and Schmeling have a place there.


----------



## dyna

You can literally count the nr1 contenders between 1928 and 1953 Louis did not face on the hand of a guy who blew up fireworks in it. (provided he still has 2 fingers left.)
Hamas and Melio Bettina.
And Hamas was out of the sport, so that leaves only Melio.

And Bettina was rated that high during the second world war and had lost his rating by 1946.
Though Louis did duck him :lol:

Louis is among the greatest even if his era might not have been the greatest, his domination is special.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> And Schmeling was past prime.
> 1929-32 was Schmeling his prime, he sort of fell apart between 32 and 34 and then went on to improve a bit again and get his best win, but he was still past prime.
> Just like McCallum.
> 
> And Gipsy Daniels had also already stopped Schmeling in 1.
> 
> Baer was a limited guy, is Paulino Uzcudun also great for beating him?
> 
> Louis doesn't really have special wins either, his greatness is his utter domination over top 10 rated opposition.
> Not because Schmeling and Baer were such great fighters.
> 
> great is when you can be put in a top 100 atg list.
> And I don't think Baer and Schmeling have a place there.


i wasnt trying to compare louis to fuckin roy jones i was simply pointing out that I do think Baer and Schmeling were great fighters, definitely, to me they just make the cut.

but i cant compare old mccallum to the schmeling that louis beat. no. The schmeling that Louis beat was a better win than Old LHW McCallum. Obviously McCallum is ranked higher p4p; that goes without saying.


----------



## Iceman JDS

Roy on his very best day, in his absolute prime, you cant tell me he doesnt have a real serious shot at beating ANYONE at 160 or 168 in the history of the game.


----------



## tommygun711

Iceman JDS said:


> Roy on his very best day, in his absolute prime, you cant tell me he doesnt have a real serious shot at beating ANYONE at 160 or 168 in the history of the game.


What about light heavy?


----------



## Pedderrs

Iceman JDS said:


> Roy on his very best day, in his absolute prime, you cant tell me he doesnt have a real serious shot at beating ANYONE at 160 or 168 in the history of the game.


I doubt many posters would disagree with that. I certainly don't disagree with it, but nor I do subscribe to the idea that Jones is infallible and would handle any fighter in history campaigning from 160-175lbs.


----------



## LittleRed

turbotime said:


> and the Jones fight. Ali coulda lost really.


Jones lost in the middle of his prime. I don't see a couple of close calls as somehow worse.


----------



## JoKeR

LittleRed said:


> Jones lost in the middle of his prime. I don't see a couple of close calls as somehow worse.


DQ loss, after securing a kd :bart


----------



## Flea Man

JoKeR said:


> DQ loss, after securing a kd :bart


I agree that it shouldn't be seen as a loss, but Griffin did give him issues in the first fight.


----------



## turbotime

LittleRed said:


> Jones lost in the middle of his prime. I don't see a couple of close calls as somehow worse.


Ali should've been DQ'd for the smelling salts as well.


----------



## dyna

Flea Man said:


> I agree that it shouldn't be seen as a loss, but Griffin did give him issues in the first fight.


And we all saw a few months later what would have happened had Roy Jones been fired up.


----------



## Flea Man

dyna said:


> And we all saw a few months later what would have happened had Roy Jones been fired up.


Yeah, the whole 'he took it easy when he wanted to' is a slight on him IMO.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> And we all saw a few months later what would have happened had Roy Jones been fired up.


you can apply the same logic to Ali-Cooper II. When Ali took him serious he cut him to shreds.. he did what a champ was supposed to do the first time around anyway


----------



## LittleRed

turbotime said:


> Ali should've been DQ'd for the smelling salts as well.


And it was the referees discretion to do so. Do you think Floyd should have been DQ's when his trainer entered the ring against Judah? Smelling salts were illegal in England but I'm pretty sure they were legal in the states. It's more like Ray Robinson's no contest vs gerhard hecht a guy doing something one place he could get away with elsewhere.


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> Ali should've been DQ'd for the smelling salts as well.


Floyd should've been DQ'd against Judah.


----------



## tommygun711

wtf :lol: grasping for straws to discredit Ali


----------



## turbotime

Floyd definitely could've been DQ'd against Judah :conf



LittleRed said:


> And it was the referees discretion to do so. Do you think Floyd should have been DQ's when his trainer entered the ring against Judah? Smelling salts were illegal in England but I'm pretty sure they were legal in the states. It's more like Ray Robinson's no contest vs gerhard hecht a guy doing something one place he could get away with elsewhere.





Flea Man said:


> Floyd should've been DQ'd against Judah.


----------



## Predator

He really did look sensational against the bums he fought in his prime. Can you imagine if Mayweather's next fight was against an off duty cop.


----------



## Ogi

Insane genetics + peds = a god amongst men


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> you can apply the same logic to Ali-Cooper II. When Ali took him serious he cut him to shreds.. he did what a champ was supposed to do the first time around anyway


Ali getting dropped hard had more to do with Ali being young and inexperienced than not taking the fight seriously.


----------



## dyna

LittleRed said:


> And it was the referees discretion to do so. Do you think Floyd should have been DQ's when his trainer entered the ring against Judah? Smelling salts were illegal in England but I'm pretty sure they were legal in the states. It's more like Ray Robinson's no contest vs gerhard hecht a guy doing something one place he could get away with elsewhere.


Not knowing the rules doesn't excuse breaking them.

If I remember right Floyd's trainer went into the ring because of an intentional low blow.
Still he could have DQ'd for it.
Though I think a NC would have been fairer than a DQ considering it was a reaction to an illegal action.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> Ali getting dropped hard had more to do with Ali being young and inexperienced than not taking the fight seriously.


Well obviously it had to do with him being young and inexperienced, which is a big reason of why it shouldn't be counted against Ali.. and it also had to do with Ali clowning Cooper. You can see it on film, Ali toying with Cooper until he got dropped. The bottom line is that Ali cut him to smithereens the next round after and would do the same in the rematch. It's really not a big deal (it happens) and it's pathetic to try to use it against Ali.


----------



## LittleRed

dyna said:


> Not knowing the rules doesn't excuse breaking them.
> 
> If I remember right Floyd's trainer went into the ring because of an intentional low blow.
> Still he could have DQ'd for it.
> Though I think a NC would have been fairer than a DQ considering it was a reaction to an illegal action.


It was a low blow followed by a right hook behind the head. Dirty pool. You know we're pretty close to 100 pages.

Roy Jones was better than Duran. I said it.

@turbotime @Pedderrs back me up.


----------



## turbotime

LittleRed said:


> It was a low blow followed by a right hook behind the head. Dirty pool. You know we're pretty close to 100 pages.
> 
> Roy Jones was better than Duran. I said it.
> 
> @turbotime @Pedderrs back me up.


Saying it for years!! :ibutt !!!!


----------



## knowimuch

LittleRed said:


> It was a low blow followed by a right hook behind the head. Dirty pool. You know we're pretty close to 100 pages.
> 
> Roy Jones was better than Duran. I said it.
> 
> @*turbotime* @*Pedderrs* back me up.


noooo waaaay


----------



## Pedderrs

LittleRed said:


> It was a low blow followed by a right hook behind the head. Dirty pool. You know we're pretty close to 100 pages.
> 
> Roy Jones was better than Duran. I said it.
> 
> @turbotime @Pedderrs back me up.


Sorry Red, I can't this time. :conf


----------



## Iceman JDS

I think that old line of Roy fought civil service workers, cops, teachers etc...its old...its disrespectful to those fighters...Ricky Frazier was a USBA champ who defeated 1988 Olympian Anthony Hembrick and was a very very cagey and slick guy...the fact that he was a cop doesnt change that...Otis Grant was a Pan-American Games runner up and # 2 in the world as an amateur, a WBO Champ as a pro who beat several undefeated contenders on the way to fighting Roy...him being a teacher doesnt mean he wasnt a very talented and well schooled guy with a very very solid resume... etc etc...


----------



## tommygun711

Iceman JDS said:


> I think that old line of Roy fought civil service workers, cops, teachers etc...its old...its disrespectful to those fighters...Ricky Frazier was a USBA champ who defeated 1988 Olympian Anthony Hembrick and was a very very cagey and slick guy...the fact that he was a cop doesnt change that...Otis Grant was a Pan-American Games runner up and # 2 in the world as an amateur, a WBO Champ as a pro who beat several undefeated contenders on the way to fighting Roy...him being a teacher doesnt mean he wasnt a very talented and well schooled guy with a very very solid resume... etc etc...


You'll find that on forums, even good opponents get disrespected. Those guys Ricky Frazier & Otis Grant are not great fighters or even solid guys when you are trying to comparing his resume to the best resumes of all time.


----------



## Iceman JDS

Your definition of solid and mine differ then thats all. I see Otis Grant as the literal definition of SOLID contender.


----------



## tommygun711

Iceman JDS said:


> Your definition of solid and mine differ then thats all. I see Otis Grant as the literal definition of SOLID contender.


Otis Grant is not going to make or break Roy's resume, Mr. Scully. When people rank Roy all time they don't look at Grant.


----------



## Iceman JDS

So he only counts when he is used to put Roys resume in a bad light. Got it.


----------



## tommygun711

Iceman JDS said:


> So he only counts when he is used to put Roys reseume in a bad light. Got it.


no. not my point. I'm just saying it's hardly a significant win, you know? People are going to look at Toney, Reggie Johnson, Hopkins, Hill, Woods, etc.


----------



## Iceman JDS

It says something about Roys resume that Otis Grant isnt even in his top 10 victory list...Otis Grant is a very tough out and is a VERY solid win for any contender and you are right...for Roy it is just another victory among many good ones.


----------



## turbotime

Scully laying the smackdown!!


----------



## tommygun711

Iceman JDS said:


> It says something about Roys resume that Otis Grant isnt even in his top 10 victory list...Otis Grant is a very tough out and is a VERY solid win for any contender and you are right...for Roy it is just another victory among many good ones.


It's nothing special, Mr. Scully. That's all. It's ain't worth even mentioning, it didn't enhance his legacy.


----------



## Jose Lopez

.





:lol:
.


----------



## Jose Lopez

.






:lol:

.


----------



## Jose Lopez

.

Roy Jones Jr is one of the Greatest Cheaters of All Time.










:lol: :lol:

.


----------



## Jose Lopez

.










http://stat.homeshop18.com/homeshop18/images/coinjoos/60/300x300_9781155440286.jpg

:lol:

.


----------



## TSOL

Irländsk said:


> Jones destroyed cab drivers and plumbers with more flair and style than any other boxer in history.
> Then he got his glass jaw shattered repeatedly by professional boxers.


damn :lol:


----------



## Leftsmash

dyna said:


> Not knowing the rules doesn't excuse breaking them.
> 
> If I remember right Floyd's trainer went into the ring because of an intentional low blow.
> Still he could have DQ'd for it.
> Though I think a NC would have been fairer than a DQ considering it was a reaction to an illegal action.


Fuck you guys :lol: Tommy can be tiresome but he's the man when it comes to Ali!


----------



## dyna

Leftsmash said:


> Fuck you guys :lol: Tommy can be tiresome but he's the man when it comes to Ali!


Ali would barely be a welterweight if he fought today.

(we're just teasing him)


----------



## tommygun711

Fuck yall. You hear me? All of you.


----------



## Jose Lopez

.








.








.









The "greatest"?? ... :lol:

.


----------



## Vic

tommygun711 said:


> You'll find that on forums, even good opponents get disrespected. Those guys Ricky Frazier & Otis Grant are not great fighters or even solid guys when you are trying to comparing his resume to the best resumes of all time.


If you think Otis Grant was highly skilled, then a win against him is great for your resume. 
Let´s say I make a point that Otis Grant was more skilled/had more ability overall than Willie Pastrano (I don´t btw, just saying that it´s all about your opinion on what you see on the fighter) who is tougher to beat ? The guy with more ability/skill, definitely. You know what I mean, Tommy ?

I perfectly understand his line of thought and I like it. Even though I don´t agree in this particular discussion about Roy, mostly because, I have to say, I didn´t even see a guy like Otis Grant enough to make a opinion.


----------



## Dedication

Jose Lopez said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "greatest"?? ... :lol:
> 
> .


:rofl Fuck Rjj


----------



## Jose Lopez

Dedication said:


> :rofl Fuck Rjj


Turbotime is ducking this, his own thread now, after I've exposed his PEDs cheating cunt - roy jones jr. being KO'd many times . :lol:


----------



## knowimuch

He just doesn't have the resume the back up this claim, personally I haven't got a top 100 p4p list but if I had one he would be top 50 but not top 30 if you catch my drift.


----------



## turbotime

Roy the GOAT :happy!!


----------



## tommygun711

knowimuch said:


> He just doesn't have the resume the back up this claim, personally I haven't got a top 100 p4p list but if I had one he would be top 50 but not top 30 if you catch my drift.


Nah. Top 30 i think. You have to figure in H2H abilities as well, not just resume. Its the reason alot of the older guys wouldn't get in my top 30.


----------



## knowimuch

tommygun711 said:


> Nah. Top 30 i think. You have to figure in H2H abilities as well, not just resume. Its the reason alot of the older guys wouldn't get in my top 30.


I agree for a part, but H2H has to be proven by resume. Jones is a great fighter against the ones he went up against but we will never know how it would go down against say a matured Hopkins. (I think he would be Toney at any weight but cruiser/heavy but that is a style thing)
Also H2H is alot of speculation you never know how it is going down on fight night!


----------



## knowimuch

tommygun711 said:


> Nah. Top 30 i think. You have to figure in H2H abilities as well, not just resume. Its the reason alot of the older guys wouldn't get in my top 30.


And I must admit a bit of bias to be honest with you


----------



## Flea Man

With H2H my criteria is 'how did they beat the fighters they beat' and to a lesser extent 'how did they perform in the bouts they lost'. 

Not 'how would they do in a mythical match up we cannot analyse in any sensible fashion'.


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> With H2H my criteria is 'how did they beat the fighters they beat' and to a lesser extent 'how did they perform in the bouts they lost'.
> 
> Not 'how would they do in a mythical match up we cannot analyse in any sensible fashion'.


Your definition is different than a lot of people's. You can use Roy's track record to determine how he would do in fantasy match ups. Boxing fans love talking hypotheticals.


----------



## Pedderrs

tommygun711 said:


> Your definition is different than a lot of people's. You can use Roy's track record to determine how he would do in fantasy match ups. Boxing fans love talking hypotheticals.


You can use Roy's track record to make an educated guess at how well he would fared with fighters of different eras, but you can't determine anything. It's purely guess work, and that's why I don't factor in this supposed 'H2H criteria' when ranking fighters all-time.

I look at resume, ability, achievement, and longevity.

We all love to discuss hypothetical match-ups, none more so than Flea, but as for using it as some kind of criteria for when it comes to ranking fighters? Nah.


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> You can use Roy's track record to make an educated guess at how well he would fared with fighters of different eras, but you can't determine anything. It's purely guess work, and that's why I don't factor in this supposed 'H2H criteria' when ranking fighters all-time.
> 
> I look at resume, ability, achievement, and longevity.


You knew what i meant, determine, guess, etc. I take all of those into consideration as well. Cant just look at resume.


----------



## Pedderrs

tommygun711 said:


> You knew what i meant, determine, guess, etc. I take all of those into consideration as well. Cant just look at resume.


You mentioned that you don't rank a lot of the old guys in the top 30 because you feel they would be beaten by more contemporary fighters.

Who are these old guys, just out of curiosity?


----------



## turbotime

knowimuch said:


> And I must admit a bit of bias to be honest with you


Bias for?


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> You mentioned that you don't rank a lot of the old guys in the top 30 because you feel they would be beaten by more contemporary fighters.
> 
> Who are these old guys, just out of curiosity?


I dont know. Who the fuck knows how greb would be in the modern era. I don't. It's too hard to rank someone like greb because we aint seen footage of him. I sure as hell would think Roy would KO him for example.

Then again someone like Ike Williams would be an absolute tank in today's day and age. We have filmed proof that backs that claim up.

We only have greb's record and stories of him to go off of. It gets too hazy. Jack Johnson is also hard to rate.


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> Then again someone like Ike Williams would be an absolute tank in today's day and age. We have filmed proof that backs that claim up.
> 
> We only have greb's record and stories of him to go off of. It gets too hazy. Jack Johnson is also hard to rate.


Ike :happy :happy :happy that's my guy


----------



## BoxingGenius27

BoxingGenius27 said:


> You really think Qawi would "grind and stop" RJJ late?? Qawi is entirely too small and flat footed. He would never land anything of significance against RJJ because Roy would never be there long enough for him to hit. Once Qawi covered up in his shell, Roy would throw punches from weird angles with enough power stop Qawi rather early in my opinion. The difference in speed and skill between these two fighters was night and day. I can't believe you're seriously debating this.
> 
> So let me understand this. You acknowledge Lopez, Johnson, Sutherland as being great fighters, but don't acknowledge that Roy had 7 titles all at the same time at LH while beating the likes of Hill, McCallum, Gonzales, Griffin, Johnson, and then beating Tarver when he was obviously past his prime. Hill is easily a top 10-20 LH of all time. Johnson is a former 4 division champion. McCallum on his worse day is better than any of those guys you mentioned outside of Qawi or Muhammed. Gonzales went on to beat Dariusz after losing to RJJ. McCallum went on to be very competitive with James Toney. Hell, Montell Griffin beat James Toney... You crap on all these guys and Roy's resume, but bring up Murray Sutherland and Yaqui Lopez??
> 
> Roy actually defended his belt more than Spinks at Light Heavy over a longer stretch... Keep in mind, Roy started his career at 154. Spinks started at 175. Roy was already a small LH relying on speed, athleticism, power and smarts. Again, Roy held 7 titles at LH all at the same time... Who does that? No one. And you're up here talking about Murray Sutherland.
> 
> Give me a break.


TommyGun711 lost all credibility in my book when he shit on RJJ's resume then proceeded to give props to Murray Sutherland and Yaqui Lopez LMFAO!!


----------



## Pedderrs

What are you arguing, BoxingGenius?


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Pedderrs said:


> What are you arguing, BoxingGenius?


None of my posts have moved and I thought my points were quite clear.

Let me guess, you still want to talk about Journeymen vs Fringe Contenders, right?

$1 bill vs $2 bill; neither being worth a damn in today's economy.


----------



## Pedderrs

BoxingGenius27 said:


> None of my posts have moved and I thought my points were quite clear.
> 
> Let me guess, you still want to talk about Journeymen vs Fringe Contenders, right?
> 
> $1 bill vs $2 bill; neither being worth a damn in today's economy.


I think the evidence was stacked against you where the Journeyman vs Fringe Contender debate was concerned. There's no need to revisit that discussion.

I was just curious as to what your overall point about Roy was. I could look back through 90 pages to find out, but I don't think I will.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> TommyGun711 lost all credibility in my book when he shit on RJJ's resume then proceeded to give props to Murray Sutherland and Yaqui Lopez LMFAO!!


Yaqui Lopez was a helluva fighter. A hard hitter, a tough guy who took on all comers. Nothing wrong with giving Spinks credit for taking those guys out, they were both quality light heavyweights. And why are you quoting yourself? I decided to not respond because your boxing knowledge is really too limited.

You try bigging up Gonzales like it's a big win or something. It's not. And it's not that impressive on Roy's resume. Neither is Otis Grant. I didn't shit on Roy's resume I said it's not too impressive compared to most ATGs.

You lost all credibility to me when you tried saying Jacobs wasn't destroyed by Pirog. He was. That thread was embarrassing btw.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Pedderrs said:


> I think the evidence was stacked against you where the Journeyman vs Fringe Contender debate was concerned. There's no need to revisit that discussion.
> 
> I was just curious as to what your overall point about Roy was. I could look back through 90 pages to find out, but I don't think I will.


I disagree.

All you gotta do is click the link to my above post; it explains my POV in my post and what I was responding too Tommy about. No need to go thru 90 pages. But it's a little after midnite here and I don't feel like repeating myself again which is why I quoted myself since TommyGun711 never even responded to it.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> Yaqui Lopez was a helluva fighter. A hard hitter, a tough guy who took on all comers. Nothing wrong with giving Spinks credit for taking those guys out, they were both quality light heavyweights. And why are you quoting yourself? I decided to not respond because your boxing knowledge is really too limited.
> 
> You try bigging up Gonzales like it's a big win or something. It's not. And it's not that impressive on Roy's resume. Neither is Otis Grant. I didn't shit on Roy's resume I said it's not too impressive compared to most ATGs.
> 
> You lost all credibility to me when you tried saying Jacobs wasn't destroyed by Pirog. He was. That thread was embarrassing btw.


So let's start with Yaqui Lopez. He was a helluva fighter, but Virgil Hill wasn't??

And my boxing knowledge is limited? You're full of shit lol


----------



## Pedderrs

It's a shame Pirog's career stagnated after the Jacobs demolition. He had potential to make a lot of noise.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> All you gotta do is click the link to my above post; it explains my POV in my post and what I was responding too Tommy about. No need to go thru 90 pages.* But it's a little after midnite here and I don't feel like repeating myself again which is why I quoted myself since TommyGun711 never even responded to it.*


wtf :lol:


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> You lost all credibility to me when you tried saying Jacobs wasn't destroyed by Pirog. He was. That thread was embarrassing btw.


He lost a fight he was winning. It happens.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> So let's start with Yaqui Lopez. He was a helluva fighter, but Virgil Hill wasn't??
> 
> And my boxing knowledge is limited? You're full of shit lol


Yeah Yaqui Lopez was a dangerous puncher.. Back then fighters fought a lot more often, and furthermore lost a lot more often. Especially a guy like Yaqui Lopez who was a complete warrior and would fight anyone. You can't just look at Yaqui's record by face value, you have to delve into the circumstances of who he was fighting and how often the motherfucker would fight a year. IT was a lot different back then.

Yaqui would bring it. He had some great fights with Conteh, Spinks, Scott, Saad, Galindez but I don't expect you to know anything about those fights. I don't.

Virgil Hill was a well accomplished fighter,and a solid technician. and everyone knows that. But no he was not more dangerous than Qawi or Yaqui Lopez. He wasn't. The way Roy got rid of him was pretty impressive, that body shot KO is always great for the highlight reels.

and if you actually have been reading what the fuck I've been saying lately I said Hill was a top win for Roy. But Hill is Hill. He is a guy with a great left jab, and good boxing skills, but check out the guys he was defending against during his reign. Not exactly world beaters.


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> He lost a fight he was winning. It happens.


He was barely winning. Barely. the tide was turning but you refuse to accept that. I am a fan of Jacobs but facts are facts.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> Yeah Yaqui Lopez was a dangerous puncher.. Back then fighters fought a lot more often, and furthermore lost a lot more often. Especially a guy like Yaqui Lopez who was a complete warrior and would fight anyone. You can't just look at Yaqui's record by face value, you have to delve into the circumstances of who he was fighting and how often the motherfucker would fight a year. IT was a lot different back then.
> 
> Yaqui would bring it. He had some great fights with Conteh, Spinks, Scott, Saad, Galindez but I don't expect you to know anything about those fights. I don't.
> 
> Virgil Hill was a well accomplished fighter,and a solid technician. and everyone knows that. But no he was not more dangerous than Qawi or Yaqui Lopez. He wasn't. The way Roy got rid of him was pretty impressive, that body shot KO is always great for the highlight reels.
> 
> and if you actually have been reading what the fuck I've been saying lately I said Hill was a top win for Roy. But Hill is Hill. He is a guy with a great left jab, and good boxing skills, but check out the guys he was defending against during his reign. Not exactly world beaters.


Again, you're full of schit... I could give a damn about a warrior. Arturo Gatti was a warrior.

Anyway, carry on with your bull


----------



## BoxingGenius27

tommygun711 said:


> He was barely winning. Barely. the tide was turning but you refuse to accept that. I am a fan of Jacobs but facts are facts.


Yea, _He lost a fight he was winning. It happens._


----------



## tommygun711

BoxingGenius27 said:


> Yea, _He lost a fight he was winning. It happens._


He got knocked the fuck out that's what happened. Him being behind on points don't mean nada.



BoxingGenius27 said:


> Again, you're full of schit... I could give a damn about a warrior. Arturo Gatti was a warrior.
> 
> Anyway, carry on with your bull


lol see you don't wanna hear this shit. Gatti didn't duke it out with Floyd he got his ass beat. There's a difference between Gatti and Lopez my friend.


----------



## Pedderrs

Jacobs was winning in the same way that Ruben Castillo was winning against Julio Cesar Chavez through 5 rounds of their fight in '85. Ruben boxed well early doors and was winning rounds, but you got the sense that it was only a matter of time before Chavez's quality would tell. Castillo was stopped in the 6th round.

Yes, Jacobs had won the majority of rounds, but he was uncomfortable throughout and was starting to show signs of crumbling under Pirog's relentless pressure. This was not a case of a lucky punch landing and knocking out a fighter who was in full control and on his way to winning a decision, not at all.

Edit: I may be thinking of Castillo's fight with Arguello actually. :huh


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> It's a shame Pirog's career stagnated after the Jacobs demolition. He had potential to make a lot of noise.


Indeed. Had he fought GGG that would have been real interesting. I don't think it's crazy to say he could've outpointed Golovkin, with the right gameplan. The way he set up the Jacobs KO was great.


----------



## Pedderrs

tommygun711 said:


> Indeed. Had he fought GGG that would have been real interesting. I don't think it's crazy to say he could've outpointed Golovkin, with the right gameplan. The way he set up the Jacobs KO was great.


He didn't setup the KO. It was a lucky hail Mary.


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> He didn't setup the KO. It was a lucky hail Mary.


lol. yeah. Fuck all of the angles he was showing and fuck all of the shifting shit he was doing just before the hail mary.


----------



## Dedication

Jose Lopez said:


> Turbotime is ducking this, his own thread now, after I've exposed his PEDs cheating cunt - roy jones jr. being KO'd many times . :lol:


like a hoe fam :lol:


----------



## turbotime

Stop trolling my thread you cunts.


----------



## knowimuch

turbotime said:


> Bias for?


I admit a little bit biased against him, I think it has more to do with the extreme fans of RJ than with RJ self (no offence to you) but most of the hardcore fans are extremely biased so you can expect a opposite reaction; an bias against him. A little bit like the Klitschko's get more hate because of their hardcore fans.


----------



## turbotime

knowimuch said:


> I admit a little bit biased against him, I think it has more to do with the extreme fans of RJ than with RJ self (no offence to you) but most of the hardcore fans are extremely biased so you can expect a opposite reaction; an bias against him. A little bit like the Klitschko's get more hate because of their hardcore fans.


Roy has hardcore fans? I'm basically in the trenches taking grenades in this thread :lol:


----------



## knowimuch

turbotime said:


> Roy has hardcore fans? I'm basically in the trenches taking grenades in this thread :lol:


Well yeah, maybe not here, but his popularity has really shrunk after the knock-out loses
Roy was rated pretty highly by boxing media in his prime, already making top 10 lists whilst still active (even before his move to heavyweight)


----------



## turbotime

knowimuch said:


> Well yeah, maybe not here, but his popularity has really shrunk after the knock-out loses
> *Roy was rated pretty highly by boxing media in his prime, already making top 10 lists whilst still active *(even before his move to heavyweight)


Well shit, rightly so.


----------



## knowimuch

turbotime said:


> Well shit, rightly so.


I'm just saying with that must praise early on, a backlash is inevitable


----------



## Pedderrs

There's no middle-ground with Jones. 

He was either the greatest fighter that ever lived who would have toyed with great fighters like Michael Spinks and Marvin Hagler, or he was an over-hyped, glass-jawed fraud who spent the majority of his prime stylin' on B-C level opposition. 

There does exist the rare few who seem to be more balanced in their evaluation of Jones Jr and his career, but they are few and far between, and they tend to get shouted down if they refuse to believe that either of the two aforementioned views were untrue.


----------



## turbotime

knowimuch said:


> I'm just saying with that must praise early on, a backlash is inevitable


Don't be hipster about it.


----------



## Pedderrs

turbotime said:


> Don't be hipster about it.





turbotime said:


> Roy has hardcore fans? I'm basically in the trenches taking grenades in this thread :lol:


----------



## knowimuch

turbotime said:


> Don't be hipster about it.


:rofl (also ouch :sad2)


----------



## turbotime

knowimuch said:


> :rofl (also ouch :sad2)


:rofl Sorry


----------



## knowimuch

turbotime said:


> :rofl Sorry


No probs :cheers


----------



## Jose Lopez

turbotime said:


> Stop trolling my thread you cunts.


I'm male, and straight.

Im not a faggott like you.


----------



## Jose Lopez

.










Roy being helped to get on his feet after being KO'd out cold. :lol: :lol:

.


----------



## Jose Lopez

.

Official Letter stating that: ROY JONES TESTED POSITIVE for STEROIDS!



This is PROOF THAT ROY JONES IS A CHEATER, A SHAM, A FAKE, A PHONY!!

:smile

.


----------



## GGGunbeatable




----------



## Alien

Roy's career was largely smoke and mirrors, carefully engineering his way through weight divisions while avoiding the best fighters.

He was obsessed with collecting paper trinkets, and HBO truly fucked up with the contract allowing Glass Jaw Roy to totally take the piss out of them and chose to defend these trinkets against disgraceful opponents.


----------



## Pedderrs

Alien said:


> Roy's career was largely smoke and mirrors, carefully engineering his way through weight divisions while* avoiding the best fighters.*
> 
> He was obsessed with collecting paper trinkets, and HBO truly fucked up with the contract allowing Glass Jaw Roy to totally take the piss out of them and chose to defend these trinkets against disgraceful opponents.


And who were they?


----------



## Jose Lopez

.









Roy Jones, The STEROID CHEATER!!

:lol::lol:

.


----------



## Jose Lopez

Roy should be in jail for using Steroids.


----------



## turbotime




----------



## rossco

Glass jawed ******.


----------



## turbotime

rossco said:


> Glass jawed ******.


----------



## paloalto00

Possibly the most gifted fighter I've seen.


----------



## Cableaddict

Oleksandr Usyk is the greatest fighter I've ever seen. (time will tell...)


- He reminds me of a prime Roy Jones. :hat


----------



## paloalto00

Bogotazo said:


> Yup. It happened before you knew it, meet the floor.


Him being unorthodox was worse, you don't know where the shots are going to come from


----------



## Slimtrae

Most gifted, probably ever. But he wasn't very skilled. Freak-like reflexes allowed him to do stupid shots like 4 left hooks in a row & not get countered. 

Way too many pages to read, but i think it was called Ripped fuel he used?

After getting busted, his physique was no longer....


----------



## paloalto00

Slimtrae said:


> Most gifted, probably ever. But he wasn't very skilled. Freak-like reflexes allowed him to do stupid shots like 4 left hooks in a row & not get countered.
> 
> Way too many pages to read, but i think it was called Ripped fuel he used?
> 
> After getting busted, his physique was no longer....


I disagree, if you watch dome of his sparring he did have a technical side. My current trainer taught us based on his hands out style of creating "layers" and stopping and smothering their punch before they can extend it


----------



## Bogotazo

Slimtrae said:


> Most gifted, probably ever. But he wasn't very skilled. Freak-like reflexes allowed him to do stupid shots like 4 left hooks in a row & not get countered.


It has way more to do with skills than it does athleticism even though he was a freak. No amount of steroids or fast-twitch muscles can give you a good jab, or teach you to slip correctly and come back with the best counter, or control the ring. His IQ is up there. Dropping his hands doesn't eliminate that.


----------



## Slimtrae

Bogotazo said:


> It has way more to do with skills than it does athleticism even though he was a freak. No amount of steroids or fast-twitch muscles can give you a good jab, or teach you to slip correctly and come back with the best counter, or control the ring. His IQ is up there. Dropping his hands doesn't eliminate that.


Big B, gotta disagree.

Roy is in the class of Ali, Ray, Swee Pee. When their god given reflexes failed them they didn't have jack to fall on.
As in James Toney, Bernard Hopkins.

Roy IMO rarely used the jab, didn't follow with anything Orthodox. Everything he did was against conventional boxing. His defence was his reflex.
Otherwise, he'd lay on the rope like-a-dope.

I'm vwatching right now RJJ vs Brannon. Same thing he did against Glencoffe -he did in his youth\prime. Brannon throwing the sink round one. And Roy? No slipping, no pivoting, damn sure no shoulder rolls. No bobbing, weaving. His D was and has always been: lay on the ropes.

Oh..Roy now ripping a bazillion punches from every angle. Left to the head, body, doubled up. Then does the Superman- ducks under.... Now he's on the other side of the ring.
RJJ like Ray...their ring IQ when commentating is genius. But they both used talent to win.

Rd 2- 2:40 seconds in, where is Roy? On the ropes, like a dope
Brannon throwing hard _backs RJJ to the corner

Once he stops, Roy starts. 2:25 RJJ does something I know Bogotazo would never train his fighter to do: 4 LEFT HOOKS...in a row!!!!!
2:20 Brannon- one last bull rush. RJJ guard up,when Brannon steps back, RJJ 1 left to the body one upstairs. It's over.

The very ass whooping he took from Glencoffe years later, wasn't a different way of defending. Same.
What was different was his lack of hand speed, timing. Oh and since he stopped using that ripped fuel, gone is that pop from his shots.


----------



## Bogotazo

Slimtrae said:


> Big B, gotta disagree.
> 
> Roy is in the class of Ali, Ray, Swee Pee. When their god given reflexes failed them they didn't have jack to fall on.
> As in James Toney, Bernard Hopkins.
> 
> Roy IMO rarely used the jab, didn't follow with anything Orthodox. Everything he did was against conventional boxing. His defence was his reflex.
> Otherwise, he'd lay on the rope like-a-dope.
> 
> I'm vwatching right now RJJ vs Brannon. Same thing he did against Glencoffe -he did in his youth\prime. Brannon throwing the sink round one. And Roy? No slipping, no pivoting, damn sure no shoulder rolls. No bobbing, weaving. His D was and has always been: lay on the ropes.
> 
> Oh..Roy now ripping a bazillion punches from every angle. Left to the head, body, doubled up. Then does the Superman- ducks under.... Now he's on the other side of the ring.
> RJJ like Ray...their ring IQ when commentating is genius. But they both used talent to win.
> 
> Rd 2- 2:40 seconds in, where is Roy? On the ropes, like a dope
> Brannon throwing hard _backs RJJ to the corner
> 
> Once he stops, Roy starts. 2:25 RJJ does something I know Bogotazo would never train his fighter to do: 4 LEFT HOOKS...in a row!!!!!
> 2:20 Brannon- one last bull rush. RJJ guard up,when Brannon steps back, RJJ 1 left to the body one upstairs. It's over.
> 
> The very ass whooping he took from Glencoffe years later, wasn't a different way of defending. Same.
> What was different was his lack of hand speed, timing. Oh and since he stopped using that ripped fuel, gone is that pop from his shots.


There's a difference between being unconventional and relying on your athleticism. You have to know the rules to know when to break them.

I would argue that because Jones's deterioration was abrupt and not gradual, he had no time to adjust his style. He gained muscle when he moved up to fight Ruiz (in which his use of the jab was excellent and essential, btw) and lost it to fight Tarver, in a fight he looked severely diminished and got sparked in right after. He was never the same.

It's true Roy never had much of an inside game but that was one of his few weaknesses. As I wrote on another forum, Roy had excellent feints-some of the best ever, great ring generalship, great parrying, correct head movement (not wild like a Hamed), a full punch arsenal, great punch placement, and a great sense of anticipation. Look at Khan, Broner, Gamboa, Russel Jr.; despite being in their primes these guys stumbled on their way to possible greatness because they didn't have the ring iq or skillset of a RJJ.

I might make a video on it now actually.


----------



## Slimtrae

Bogotazo said:


> There's a difference between being unconventional and relying on your athleticism. You have to know the rules to know when to break them.
> 
> I would argue that because Jones's deterioration was abrupt and not gradual, he had no time to adjust his style. He gained muscle when he moved up to fight Ruiz (in which his use of the jab was excellent and essential, btw) and lost it to fight Tarver, in a fight he looked severely diminished and got sparked in right after. He was never the same.
> 
> I might make a video on it now actually.


Abrupt or gradual, adjusting is our key disagreement. 
Toney, Hopkins, JMM, PBF, Ward, didn't have to adjust (their styles), they incorporated over the years, they added on to a style built on fundamentals.

They made adjustments (*in*) a fight, not in their way of fighting.
Whereas RJJ unconventional style as you stated meant adjusting- even though he had 13 years pro experience. I'd argue virtually every fighter is locked into their style by 5-8 years pro, let alone 1989-2003 when he 1st fought Tarver.

As far as his weight loss, he never weighed @ HW vs Ruiz, He was low end CW, like 194lbs?
He said he should've given himself a year before dropping but realistically it was 8 months.

And I can't understand why his physique fell apart as well. Even if his fight game fell off, he looked soft @ LHW, & CW. I think without Ripped Fuel...others say androstenedione....his sculpture turned silly putty. Since he doesn't do drugs, alcohol, or Arreola burrito curls... No reason for him to look so soft.

But ..please!! Make that video!! We will see a gift from the boxing gods no matter how u edit! School me big B, I doubt you'll find footage outside of a boxer doing ridiculous shit that schooled fighters dream of doing.
On standby:dance


----------



## Bogotazo

Slimtrae said:


> Abrupt or gradual, adjusting is our key disagreement.
> Toney, Hopkins, JMM, PBF, Ward, didn't have to adjust (their styles), they incorporated over the years, they added on to a style built on fundamentals.
> 
> They made adjustments (*in*) a fight, not in their way of fighting.
> Whereas RJJ unconventional style as you stated meant adjusting- even though he had 13 years pro experience. I'd argue virtually every fighter is locked into their style by 5-8 years pro, let alone 1989-2003 when he 1st fought Tarver.
> 
> As far as his weight loss, he never weighed @ HW vs Ruiz, He was low end CW, like 194lbs?
> He said he should've given himself a year before dropping but realistically it was 8 months.
> 
> And I can't understand why his physique fell apart as well. Even if his fight game fell off, he looked soft @ LHW, & CW. I think without Ripped Fuel...others say androstenedione....his sculpture turned silly putty. Since he doesn't do drugs, alcohol, or Arreola burrito curls... No reason for him to look so soft.
> 
> But ..please!! Make that video!! We will see a gift from the boxing gods no matter how u edit! School me big B, I doubt you'll find footage outside of a boxer doing ridiculous shit that schooled fighters dream of doing.
> On standby:dance


Adding onto a style built on fundamentals is easier, I'd agree with that. But I think Roy did in fact stick to the fundamentals in all aspects aside from his guard. Which is a pretty big aspect of a boxing style, but still, every other aspect of his game was built on knowledge. I think the fact he was able to do so well against the likes of Ledbedev (before the KO) with just a bit of leftover speed speaks to his intelligence. Not to mention his commentary. Like I said, plenty of fighters out there with speed and power, few if any as successful as a prime RJJ.

Video coming soon! I've just laid it out.


----------



## hamas

Bogotazo said:


> There's a difference between being unconventional and relying on your athleticism. You have to know the rules to know when to break them.
> 
> I would argue that because Jones's deterioration was abrupt and not gradual, he had no time to adjust his style. He gained muscle when he moved up to fight Ruiz (in which his use of the jab was excellent and essential, btw) and lost it to fight Tarver, in a fight he looked severely diminished and got sparked in right after. He was never the same.
> 
> It's true Roy never had much of an inside game but that was one of his few weaknesses. As I wrote on another forum, Roy had excellent feints-some of the best ever, great ring generalship, great parrying, correct head movement (not wild like a Hamed), a full punch arsenal, great punch placement, and a great sense of anticipation. Look at Khan, Broner, Gamboa, Russel Jr.; despite being in their primes these guys stumbled on their way to possible greatness because they didn't have the ring iq or skillset of a RJJ.
> 
> I might make a video on it now actually.


I actually thought he had a pretty decent inside game, a lot of times he was content to move around but sometimes he stayed in the pocket and really went to town on the other guy like he did against pazienza


----------



## Lester1583

hamas said:


> I actually thought he had a pretty decent inside game


Yup, Bogo is wrong here.

Jones' inside fighting was one of his underrated assets.

The more his legs deteriorated the more often he had to rely on it.

He was never a "fan" of it but when he used it, he never looked helpless/uncomfortable.


----------



## Bogotazo

Lester1583 said:


> Yup, Bogo is wrong here.
> 
> Jones' inside fighting was one of his underrated assets.
> 
> The more his legs deteriorated the more often he had to rely on it.
> 
> He was never a "fan" of it but when he used it, he never looked helpless/uncomfortable.





hamas said:


> I actually thought he had a pretty decent inside game, a lot of times he was content to move around but sometimes he stayed in the pocket and really went to town on the other guy like he did against pazienza


It's funny I'm actually re-watching the Hopkins fight right now and I was indeed wrong. Jones had a solid inside game. Hopkins gets the better of it when Jones is against the ropes but Jones is far from helpless as he tucks his chin, pushes with his forearm, and gets leverage on body shots and uppercuts as well as probably any fighter out there today.

The Pazienza performance was just ruthless.


----------



## Lester1583

Bogotazo said:


> It's funny I'm actually re-watching the Hopkins fight right now and I was indeed wrong. Jones had a solid inside game. Hopkins gets the better of it when Jones is against the ropes but Jones is far from helpless as he tucks his chin, pushes with his forearm, and gets leverage on body shots and uppercuts as well as probably any fighter out there today.
> 
> The Pazienza performance was just ruthless.


It wasn't the referee only.

The Ruiz perormance stands out in that regard.

Jones managed to completely neutralize a much much stronger bigger guy who was known for his inside effectiveness.

Compare him to Kovalev who was rightfully praised by some for his improved ***** clinch against Ward.

And Ward is a mere apprentice in comparison to The Quiet Master of the Dirty Art.
@dyna


----------



## Slimtrae

How does the *least* hit fighter of his era abruptly deteriorate quicker than all of his peers?
James "12 piece chicken & biscuit combo" Toney blew up in between every fight.
Bernard. "Shenk fighting" Hopkins was in prison brawls like when Echols body slammed him.

His HW farce, er fight, Yeah, Nady started calling break against Ruiz about 2:30 round one. Fellaz suggest any round of that fight for me to rewatch for inside fighting. Nady was awful, i lost count of him hollering "BREAK! "

Pazienza? Ya'll killing me, serious I loved watching RJJ- but part of me says RJJ was supposed to kick the hair grease outta former *LW* that was 4 inches shorter & 4 inch reach disadvantage. Shux, Paz got the title shot by going 24 rounds with Duran. A dude that was fighting pro before Roy was swimming in his daddy's nutsack.

I'm not saying Roy had no skills. Rather Roy's greatest assets was his God given talent, hand speed, power. When it failed him he went on a continuous bum tour. While Hopkins, JMM, PBF kept fighting killers. None of them are as fast as they once were - but their skill level allowed them to neutralize their foe's best assets.
Meanwhile RJJ just absorbs ass whoopin after ass whoopin...


----------



## Slimtrae

After ass whoopin, after ass whoopin after knockout after knockout...


----------



## Bogotazo

Slimtrae said:


> How does the *least* hit fighter of his era abruptly deteriorate quicker than all of his peers?












*Tim Smith of the New York Daily News reported: "He [Jones] had to lose 25 pounds to move down from heavyweight to make the 175-pound limit to face Tarver. Five days before the match, Jones weighed 183 pounds. He was gaunt and drawn at the weigh-in. He sat slumped on a stool while he waited to step on the scales. Once he climbed into the ring, Jones was drained after four rounds and survived mainly because Tarver decided to counter instead of pressing the action."
*
Many years and KO's later he was still able to perform admirably in his loss against a top cruiserweight:


----------



## Hands of Iron

tommygun711 said:


> he can't be the greatest fighter you've ever seen when he looks so spectacular over shitty tomato cans, and when his two best wins are over toney and hopkins





Dealt_with said:


> how do wins get better than Toney and Hopkins?


:lol:


----------



## tommygun711

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:


Toney was weight drained, Bhop was green and significantly improved after that fight. Dont really think Jones beat the best version of either of those guys especially considering what bhop would go on to do.

Ali's wins over Foreman, Liston>>>

Toney's wins over McCallum, Nunn>>

Charles' wins over Walcott, Maxim, Moore, Bivins >>>

Leonard's wins over Hearns, Benitez>>>

Young's wins over Norton, Foreman>>>

Holyfield's wins over Bowe, Qawi >>

Robinson's wins over LaMotta, Gavilan, Fullmer, Basilio>>


----------



## Pedderrs

tommygun711 said:


> Holyfield's wins over Bowe, Qawi >>


Bowe was out of shape, Qawi was past his prime.

I don't think you can seriously consider those two wins superior to Roy's over Hopkins and Toney.


----------



## tommygun711

Pedderrs said:


> Bowe was out of shape, Qawi was past his prime.
> 
> I don't think you can seriously consider those two wins superior to Roy's over Hopkins and Toney.


And Toney was weight drained, Bhop was green. Neither were "prime"


----------



## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> And Toney was weight drained, Bhop was green. Neither were "prime"


Rarely are fighters at their premium weight.


----------



## Slimtrae

Bogotazo said:


> *Tim Smith of the New York Daily News reported: "He [Jones] had to lose 25 pounds to move down from heavyweight to make the 175-pound limit to face Tarver. Five days before the match, Jones weighed 183 pounds. He was gaunt and drawn at the weigh-in. He sat slumped on a stool while he waited to step on the scales. Once he climbed into the ring, Jones was drained after four rounds and survived mainly because Tarver decided to counter instead of pressing the action."
> *
> Many years and KO's later he was still able to perform admirably in his loss against a top cruiserweight:


Yeah, I've seen that listed on many sites. Myself, I prefer to go by the tale of the tape. ....seconds into the clip! LOL!


----------



## Slimtrae

Some say RJJ weighed 220+.
You are correct Roy had to drop 199 to 175.
Again, that's CW to LHW, not HW. And for that one fight, ...? He had no wars


----------



## Snakefist

tommygun711 said:


> And Toney was weight drained, Bhop was green. Neither were "prime"


Tommy, honestly, the James toney weight excuse is the worst one ever. Toney was basically weight drained, to some degree, every fight he had at 160 and 168, the guy, I dont think, was ever truly comfortable at those weights, he was normally, back in his high school football days 200+. So he was cutting weight man his whole time at mw/smw, so I doubt his weight was ever ideal, but it never stops the accolades that comes with his defeats of quality guys at those weights, it's only when people lose is there excuses.

And Bhop is merely a freak of nature, he was a an up and coming contender at the time, fighting for a vacant belt, which he wouldve won against anyone else, he just so happen to fight another guy, who was an contender in jones and loss. And it wasnt too long before he got a belt, and proved himself. I dont think he was green, he wasnt his absolute best/prime, but he wasnt green, no -- he wasnt out of his depth, and it wasnt like he didnt deserve his spot. Those two wins are huge, no matter how you attempt to spin it.


----------



## Snakefist

Slimtrae said:


> Some say RJJ weighed 220+.
> You are correct Roy had to drop 199 to 175.
> Again, that's CW to LHW, not HW. And for that one fight, ...? He had no wars


I dont think you understand what losing that amount of muscle in a short period of time, does to you. sure it was his fault, regardless. I think it had an affect, but it doesnt matter, when you sign the for the fight, you gotta let all that go and find a way to win, the first night he did, the second he got caught by a punch jumping in stupidly not realizing that he shouldve adapted his style once he felt he wasnt as quick. all his fault. tarver took his heart and he loss fair and square. you find a way to win, period, no matter what... most training camps arent perfect, injuries happen, weight stuff happens, all types of stuff, when you get in that ring, it doesnt matter anymore, you got to find a way to produce.


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## Stone Rose

I know it's a pointless post with too many what ifs but I firmly believe Mclellan would've given him hell.


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## PityTheFool

Slimtrae said:


> How does the *least* hit fighter of his era abruptly deteriorate quicker than all of his peers?
> James "12 piece chicken & biscuit combo" Toney blew up in between every fight.
> Bernard. "Shenk fighting" Hopkins was in prison brawls like when Echols body slammed him.
> 
> His HW farce, er fight, Yeah, Nady started calling break against Ruiz about 2:30 round one. Fellaz suggest any round of that fight for me to rewatch for inside fighting. Nady was awful, i lost count of him hollering "BREAK! "
> 
> Pazienza? Ya'll killing me, serious I loved watching RJJ- but part of me says RJJ was supposed to kick the hair grease outta former *LW* that was 4 inches shorter & 4 inch reach disadvantage. Shux, Paz got the title shot by going 24 rounds with Duran. A dude that was fighting pro before Roy was swimming in his daddy's nutsack.
> 
> I'm not saying Roy had no skills. Rather Roy's greatest assets was his God given talent, hand speed, power. When it failed him he went on a continuous bum tour. While Hopkins, JMM, PBF kept fighting killers. None of them are as fast as they once were - but their skill level allowed them to neutralize their foe's best assets.
> Meanwhile RJJ just absorbs ass whoopin after ass whoopin...


 Quarter Pounders mate.Its that simple.


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## dyna

Slimtrae said:


> Some say RJJ weighed 220+.
> You are correct Roy had to drop 199 to 175.
> Again, that's CW to LHW, not HW. And for that one fight, ...? He had no wars


it was HW to LHW.

The cruiserweight division still had a 190 pound limit back then.


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## rjjfan

Fairest thing to say about RJJ is that in his prime, he would have given anyone from 154-175 trouble, if not outright beat them.


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## ThatBoxingGuy2022

Bogotazo said:


> *Tim Smith of the New York Daily News reported: "He [Jones] had to lose 25 pounds to move down from heavyweight to make the 175-pound limit to face Tarver. Five days before the match, Jones weighed 183 pounds. He was gaunt and drawn at the weigh-in. He sat slumped on a stool while he waited to step on the scales. Once he climbed into the ring, Jones was drained after four rounds and survived mainly because Tarver decided to counter instead of pressing the action."
> *
> Many years and KO's later he was still able to perform admirably in his loss against a top cruiserweight:


Someone needs to make a slow motion gif of 1:06


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## Slimtrae

Snakefist said:


> I dont think you understand what losing ....
> 
> it doesnt matter anymore, you got to find a way to produce.


You are correct, never had to lose muscle. Still trying to find some!
The rest of your post solidifies my point (no excuses). & since he was so great at avoiding shots, we never seen him hit flush.
Are we to assume losing muscle made him prone to one punch knockouts?:deadmanny
2nd fight wasn't enough time to see him perform. 1 shot. 
Glencoffe whooped his ass all over the ring. A few times he ripped some nice ass bodyshots. Psstt!! Road Warrior walked through them. 
Didn't look drained against Tito, didn't see a drained Roy against badi ajamu that got sent to the hospital for too many shots to the kidney. . in fact several articles claimed he was back. Then shobox 1st SMW tourney to no exposure produced 21-0 Anthony Hanshaw. Roy looked fine to me going 12 UD. To say he didn't look like Roy of 20something year old is same for all fighters turned mid/late 30s.


dyna said:


> it was HW to LHW.
> 
> The cruiserweight division still had a 190 pound limit back then.


My point. ..a LOT claim he weighed 220 like most HW's do. We both know 190lb fighters dont get HW title shots. Last gr8 that did was named Rocky Marciano.
Seriously, I grew up watching Roy, loved it.
Bottom line is Roy can't claim muscle loss for losing to everyone. It's a copout. So nobody beat Roy fair? Toney didn't lose 20lbs muscle to fight RJj, but he did lose 40lb of blubber. Again & again, but apparently, it didn't diminish his reflexes, father time did.
Didn't lower his punch resistance. 
Roy never incorporated a defensive game plan in case father time catches up. No rolling with shots, no angles, he has almost always been squared up, hands at his waist, taunting. 
Dropping muscle didn't do that. I mean...when Roy gets knocked out: Damn, it looks like a career ending KO, each one. Muscle loss causes that? Ok. Still, 199 -175 doesn't seem like he alone has done such.


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## Slimtrae

We know the names. Tony Thorton, Merqui Sosa, Eric Lucas, Bryant Brannon, Lou Devalle, 18 yr. Veteran Mike McAllum, Otis Grant, Richard Frazier, Dave Telesco, Richard Hall, Derrick Hall, Glen Kelly, Pazienza, Eric Harding. 
Had RJJ lost to these, wouldn't that be called an *upset*? In other words, he was *supposed* to win.

James Toney, Montell Griffin, Antonio Tarver, Glencoffe Johnson, Dave A. Jackson, Bhop & Joe Calzaghe - each proved themselves top fighters when they fought.
But we will blame muscle loss for getting drubbed & busted up by Joe Calslappy. Cold cocked by Tarver, beat the phuk up then knocked the phuk out by Glencoffe. Bhop RJJ II -well pitiful on both parts.

I don't count Lebedev etc.
Joe Calzaghe proved Roy for whatever reasons would never beat an elite fighter ever again.


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## bailey

turbotime said:


> A+ Speed. A+ Power A+ instincts A+ footwork :conf
> 
> [video=youtube;UikhYrRazbY]


Have you not watched -
Calzaghe
Ottke
Michalczewski
Haye
Eubank
Erdei
Mayweather

to name a few


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