# The Harry Greb thread



## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

I think this mythical creature needs his own thread. Possibly the best fighter of all time based on record. We just don't know based on lack of film. From all accounts he was tough, durable with blazing speed of hand and foot. My personal favorite old timer.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Here's my two cents on him:

P4P top 3 due to possessing the world's best resume.

his prime years ran from 1918-1925 by my estimation and in this time he fought the following:

HW - Miske, Smith, Moha, Brennan (x4), Meehan (x2), J Smith, Renault (x2), Weinert, H Smith, 

LHW - Levinsky (x3), Dillon, Tunney, Miske, Houck (x2), T Gibbons (x2), M Gibbons, Loughran (x3), Flowers, Rosenbloom, - Tunney (Dx2)*, Loughran (Dx2)*, Z Kid (D) - Gibbons (L), Tunney (Lx2) .

MW: - Dillon, Walker, Slattery, Chip (x2), Moha, Wilson (x2), Brennan (x3), McCoy, J Smith (x2), Downey, Moore, - Flowers (D)* - Flowers (L) O'Dowd (L)


and many more that I could list. the fights with an * are because reports indicate the official decision was controversial.

In my opinion he spent a total of 97 months as the best fighter in a given division (61 months over 2 stints at LHW and 38 over 1 stint at MW)

At LHW whilst on top he faced 17 opponents that I deem to be noteworthy.

At MW whilst on top he faced 5 opponents that I deem to be noteworthy.

That's a total of 22 opponents faced whilst defending his claim as the premiere fighter in a given division. 

For a few months he simultaneously ruled the MW and LHW division and during his prime he defeated every man he faced.

Also, for what it's worth, he's the one notable white HW contender that Jack Dempsey didn't face during his career.

A truly legendary fighter and it's a crying shame that we don't have footage of him at his best.


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## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

Greb's resume is a who's who of middleweights, light heavyweights and heavyweights of that era. He truly is an amazing guy, to have faced and beaten such a roster of legendary opponents and for many bouts he was blind in one eye. He delivered the great Gene Tunney his one and only loss and based on accounts of the fight (some by Tunney himself) it was an almighty ass kicking.

One my favorites of the era.


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## hhascup (Jun 26, 2012)

Harry Greb best Wins
Gene Tunney (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Slattery (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Dillon (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mickey Walker (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Billy Miske (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Tommy Gibbons (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Mike Gibbons (1) – Hall of Famer – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Tiger Flowers (1) – Hall of Famer - World Middleweight Champion
Kid Norfolk (1) – Hall of Famer
Leo Houck (3) - Hall of Famer 
Mike McTigue (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Al McCoy (2) – World Middleweight Champion
George Chip (2) – World Middleweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (3) – World Middleweight Champion
Eddie McGoorty (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
Gunboat Smith (2) – Top Heavyweight
Bill Brennan (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Augie Ratner – (2) - Defeated four world champions in his career

Jack Blackburn – (1) – Hall of Famer as a trainer
Young Ahearn 
Jeff Smith 
Soldier Bartfield 
Tommy Robson 
Bartley Madden 
Tommy Robson 
Joe Borrell 
Bob Moha 
Chuck Wiggins 
Jack Renault 
Charley Weinert 
Billy Shade 
Homer Smith 
Lou Bogash 
Bryan Downey 
Jackie Clark 
Jimmy Delaney 
Jack Reddick 
Roland Todd 
Allentown Joe Gans


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## hhascup (Jun 26, 2012)

Here's another way to look at it.

Harry Greb best Wins
Young Ahearn 69-14-12
Al McCoy 69-33-30 – World Middleweight Champion
Jeff Smith 28-13-1
George Chip 62-20-8 – World Middleweight Champion
Jack Dillon 166-14-24 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky 136-29-26 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jeff Smith 30-14-1
George Chip 65-23-9 – World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan 65-12-33 – Beat Dempsey twice
Augie Ratner 34-3-3
Jack Dillon 168-19-26 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue 44-16-3 – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Al McCoy 70-38-31 – World Middleweight Champion
Soldier Bartfield 96-20-19
Gunboat Smith 75-30-9 – Top Heavyweight
Soldier Bartfield 96-21-19
Soldier Bartfield 97-22-19
Eddie McGoorty 77-13-15 – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Battling Levinsky 143-32-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Billy Miske 43-9-10 – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Leo Houck 109-23-18 – Hall of Famer
Soldier Bartfield 99-24-22
Tommy Robson 41-14-6
Bill Brennan 40-8-5 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Battling Levinsky 146-34-30 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Leo Houck 113-24-18 – Hall of Famer
Bill Brennan 40-9-5 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Billy Miske 48-11-10 – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Leo Houck 116-26-18 – Hall of Famer
Battling Levinsky 147-35-30 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Willie Meehan 73-16-35 – Beat Dempsey twice
Bartley Madden 20-9-4
Tommy Robson 43-17-6
Joe Borrell 50-25-10
Mike Gibbons 87-3-9 – Hall of Famer
Bill Brennan 40-11-6 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Battling Levinsky 148-37-31 – Hall of Famer – World Champion
Bill Brennan 40-12-6 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Jeff Smith 41-19-1
Battling Levinsky 151-38-31 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue 51-19-5 – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Tommy Robson 49-20-7
Bob Moha 39-18-9
Tommy Gibbons 49-0-3 – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Bob Moha 39-19-9
Chuck Wiggins 23-5-3
Gunboat Smith 81-41-14
Bartley Madden 25-14-5
Bob Moha 40-20-9
Jeff Smith 57-21-2
Jeff Smith 57-22-2
Jack Renault 15-1-2
Bartley Madden 26-17-5
Kid Norfolk 59-7-1 – Hall of Famer
Chuck Wiggins 31-12-6
Charley Weinert 53-12-3
Billy Shade 38-9-18
Homer Smith 38-11-4
Chuck Wiggins 35-14-6
Jeff Smith 65-25-3
Tommy Gibbons 75-1-3 – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Gene Tunney 48-0-2 – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran 25-1-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Tommy Loughran 27-3-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Tommy Loughran 27-4-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Johnny Wilson 70-16-4 – World Middleweight Champion 
Lou Bogash 75-9-15
Chuck Wiggins 44-25-9
Bryan Downey 74-26-16
Tommy Loughran 33-7-4 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Johnny Wilson 73-17-4 – World Middleweight Champion
Jackie Clark 112-53-38
Jimmy Slattery 48-1-0 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Delaney 40-5-5
Augie Ratner 60-23-9 - Defeated four world champions in his career
Jimmy Delaney 40-7-5
Johnny Wilson 75-21-4 – World Middleweight Champion
Jack Reddick 25-5-3
Mickey Walker 49-9-1 – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom 32-3-5 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Roland Todd 60-11-3
Jimmy Delaney 46-10-6
Allentown Joe Gans 30-11-9


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

hhascup said:


> Harry Greb best Wins
> Gene Tunney (1) - Hall of Famer - World Heavyweight Champion - Beat Dempsey twice
> Tommy Loughran (4) - Hall of Famer - World Light Heavyweight Champion
> Jimmy Slattery (1) - Hall of Famer - World Light Heavyweight Champion
> ...


excellent work as always Henry. I tend to stop when I get to the best 10 and with Harry that leaves out an awful lot of guys!


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## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

hhascup said:


> Harry Greb best Wins
> Gene Tunney (1) - Hall of Famer - World Heavyweight Champion - Beat Dempsey twice
> Tommy Loughran (4) - Hall of Famer - World Light Heavyweight Champion
> Jimmy Slattery (1) - Hall of Famer - World Light Heavyweight Champion
> ...


Holy shit, that's an incredible list of names. Chip, Levinsky, Dillon, McCoy, Ahearn, McTigue, Bartfield, Smith, Miske, Brennan, etc. Are all there, among other greats.


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## Boogle McDougal (Jun 8, 2012)

Awhile back I fell down a rabbit hole in researching Greb. I came across a series of articles in The Pittsburgh Press attributed to Greb himself in the wake of his defeat of Tommy Gibbons. It's fascinating to read the words attributed directly to him in light of all that's been written about him since. Enjoy:

*Greb Did Not Let Gibbons Get Set
*http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...kEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6239,770243&dq=harry+greb&hl=en

*Gibbons Outgamed, Claims Harry Greb*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Yh8bAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3820,2457960

*Size Not Only Asset For Champion*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Yx8bAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4252,2746168

*Harry Greb Comments On Tunney And Wilson*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3943,3062466&dq=harry+greb&hl=en

*Greb Believes He Could Outbox Dempsey *
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZR8bAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3754,3434473


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Fuck it I'm saying it now, I think he'd have beaten Dempsey on points.

Jack was a giant killer but didn't look as impressive against those his own size. Greb at 175 is giving away only a stone to Jack and I think someone as skilled as him could afford that disadvantage. Jack wouldn't knock Greb out and by all reports Greb was quicker in both hands and feet.

Greb UD Dempsey to be considered the GOAT.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Boggle said:


> Awhile back I fell down a rabbit hole in researching Greb. I came across a series of articles in The Pittsburgh Press attributed to Greb himself in the wake of his defeat of Tommy Gibbons. It's fascinating to read the words attributed directly to him in light of all that's been written about him since. Enjoy:
> 
> *Greb Did Not Let Gibbons Get Set
> *http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...kEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6239,770243&dq=harry+greb&hl=en
> ...


awesome find.


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## Boogle McDougal (Jun 8, 2012)

Greb was a very astute observer, as shown in these articles:

*Tunney Has Great Chance To Cop Title Says Greb*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=6200,6289921&dq=by+harry+greb&hl=en

*Dempsey's Workouts Fail To Impress*
*Former Middleweight Champ Believes Jack Needs Better Sparring Partners At Once*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=3998,2186168&dq=by+harry+greb&hl=en

*Dempsey Assumes Bachelor Role As Wife Departs For Hollywood*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=3940,2111148&dq=by+harry+greb&hl=en

*Dempsey Takes A Rest*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=3745,5559421&dq=by+harry+greb&hl=en

...plus an appearance by our old pal Jeffries!

*Jack Dempsey's Legs Are All Right Asserts Jefferies*
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=3769,1518128&dq=by+harry+greb&hl=en[/QUOTE]


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## charles bronson (Jun 3, 2012)




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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Good contributions. 

I think it needs to be said also, that Greg didn't duck black fighters like Dempsey. It is possible greb had the highest output and best energy levels in the history of boxing. Of all the information compiled, his stamina is something all have commented on. What I think is amazing, given the longer fights of days past, is that greb would turn it into second gear midway through, and then drop the peddle to the floor during the championship rounds. Read his round by round vs. Walker. Fucking astounding. Imagine the punch stat numbers in some of his fights.


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## Burt Brooks (Jun 6, 2012)

lufcrazy said:


> Fuck it I'm saying it now, I think he'd have beaten Dempsey on points.
> 
> Jack was a giant killer but didn't look as impressive against those his own size. Greb at 175 is giving away only a stone to Jack and I think someone as skilled as him could afford that disadvantage. Jack wouldn't knock Greb out and by all reports Greb was quicker in both hands and feet.
> 
> Greb UD Dempsey to be considered the GOAT.


Harry Greb was a MW by all accounts...Yes when he was facing LHs and HWs, he would usually weigh in at 165-70 or so, but why should he knock himself out
depriving himself when he didn't have to...Remember in 1925, Greb weighed in at 158 pounds and gave a prime Mickey Walker a 15 round drubbing, just one
year before Greb died...Today fighters weigh in a day before the fight, and come into the ring at 10-15 pounds heavier then their weighin...
Every top fighter today enters the ring heavier then the mandatory weighin weight..And Greb at 5ft8",when NECESSARY was a MW, and he didn't have to make MW
when fighting bigger men he came in heavier and still had the speed and strength to beat anyone...One for the ages...


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## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

lufcrazy said:


> Fuck it I'm saying it now, I think he'd have beaten Dempsey on points.
> 
> Jack was a giant killer but didn't look as impressive against those his own size. Greb at 175 is giving away only a stone to Jack and I think someone as skilled as him could afford that disadvantage. Jack wouldn't knock Greb out and by all reports Greb was quicker in both hands and feet.
> 
> Greb UD Dempsey to be considered the GOAT.


If Greb had fought and beaten Dempsey he'd be the GOAT. No question.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Burt Brooks said:


> Harry Greb was a MW by all accounts...Yes when he was facing LHs and HWs, he would usually weigh in at 165-70 or so, but why should he knock himself out
> depriving himself when he didn't have to...Remember in 1925, Greb weighed in at 158 pounds and gave a prime Mickey Walker a 15 round drubbing, just one
> year before Greb died...Today fighters weigh in a day before the fight, and come into the ring at 10-15 pounds heavier then their weighin...
> Every top fighter today enters the ring heavier then the mandatory weighin weight..And Greb at 5ft8",when NECESSARY was a MW, and he didn't have to make MW
> when fighting bigger men he came in heavier and still had the speed and strength to beat anyone...One for the ages...


Burt usually I'd agree, but miske and gibbons both got shots, none as big as greb and none as qualified in the hw division.

Miske, Smith, Moha, Brennan (x4), Meehan (x2), J Smith, Renault (x2), Weinert, H Smith, 
all hw's who were defeated by greb. dempsey himself wasn't much bigger and greb fancied his chances.

the colour bar i can understand, but this i cannot.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The greatest. I have little doubt he'd have beaten Dempsey.


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## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

Man, I'd have loved to see Greb vs. Dempsey. A win over Jack would really set Greb's GOATness in stone.
As it is I move Langford, Greb and Robinson about. In the past Sam would be my #1, then Robinson, and at other times Greb. Right now I'd still consider Robinson the GOAT.


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

To try and get a visual of his style, from all the interviews of boxers who faced Greb, I picture an unorthodox Robinson. That was another thing that made greb awesome, his unorthodox approach. He was an improviser. Greb was anti technical, the nemesis of Robinson's technical brilliance. Greb also used every punch in the boxing textbooks. 

One account from a guy who fought him (Percy ?) said at one time during their fight he stood in the corner, with his hands down and 'you still couldn't hit him'. So he used great head movement on top of ridiculous angles for defense. That also says he had great reflexes. He would also throw a punch and stop it midway in motion and turn it into a different punch. So we know he used feints. The boxing terminology was different back then remember. 

This guy is the most versatile fighter ever. Second or even to robinson.


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## Boogle McDougal (Jun 8, 2012)

Leeroy said:


> To try and get a visual of his style, from all the interviews of boxers who faced Greb, I picture an unorthodox Robinson. That was another thing that made greb awesome, his unorthodox approach. He was an improviser. Greb was anti technical, the nemesis of Robinson's technical brilliance. Greb also used every punch in the boxing textbooks.
> 
> One account from a guy who fought him (Percy ?) said at one time during their fight he stood in the corner, with his hands down and 'you still couldn't hit him'. So he used great head movement on top of ridiculous angles for defense. That also says he had great reflexes. He would also throw a punch and stop it midway in motion and turn it into a different punch. So we know he used feints. The boxing terminology was different back then remember.
> 
> This guy is the most versatile fighter ever. Second or even to robinson.


I think the best fighters to give us an indication of Greb's style would have to be Ken Overlin and to a lesser extent, Joe Calzaghe. Even these are probably a bit of a stretch. Especially the Calzaghe comparison. They both had fast hands, a high work-rate and didn't usually sit on their punches. That's the extent of that.


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

He is the greatest fighter of all time without Dempsey IMO. Adding jack to that resume would erase the question beyond all doubt


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

well for me it's between greb, fitz and robinson.

Greb: goat resume
fitz: goat achievement
robinson: goat skillset.

if greb had beaten dempsey in a filmed fight, he'd probably be top of all 3 categories.


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Yeah that's the holy grail of boxing footage; Harry Greb fights. It has been confirmed he had 2 or 3 of his bouts filmed. One was Tunney the other against Walker and possibly Flowers. I wouldn't want to give people any leads because if you stumbled upon one of those fights you'd be a rich man. Suffice it to say, greb's training footage was discovered in an Northern Carolina library. Hope remains that some day his recorded fights will be discovered.


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## Burt Brooks (Jun 6, 2012)

Boggle said:


> I think the best fighters to give us an indication of Greb's style would have to be Ken Overlin and to a lesser extent, Joe Calzaghe. Even these are probably a bit of a stretch. Especially the Calzaghe comparison. They both had fast hands, a high work-rate and didn't usually sit on their punches. That's the extent of that.


B, Ken Overlin a greatly underated MW champion in his day was called "the poor man's Harry Greb" by many...Though flattered, Overlin commented
"I am convinced Harry Greb would have licked me and my No1 challenger , on the same night with no rest in between ". Greb was an "original"
in every way...His stamina was second to none...To have 299 recorded bouts against MWs, LHs, and HWs, with many 15 round bouts is astounding.
In one year Greb had FORTY FIVE BOUTS, winning them ALL. He was almost impoosible to hit solidly as he was bouncing to and fro, and he was in attack mode every moment, shooting blows from every angle into his opponent's face.. He never gave his opponent the ball...
One foe after being stopped by Greb claimed ," it was like the ceiling opened up and gloves came poring down on me"...He had an iron chin enabling him to absorb blows of LHs and HWs if necessary...And Greb was FEARLESS in the ring.
P.S. In the last 5 years or so, Harry Greb was BLIND in one eye...Just think of the courage it required to enter the ring, against bigger men
knowing that ONE BLOW to your remaining eye would make you virtually BLIND to your opponent and the fans watching...? He did this in over 100 bouts, fighting the anxiety he must have had... My dad saw the first fight with Gene Tunney in MSG, 1922 when Greb gave the 12 pound heavier a terrible lacing...My dad would always say that he never saw so much blood shed by Gene Tunney that night...As fate would have it my dad also lost
one eye later on in an accident, and he and Greb shared this tragedy....My sole claim to fame was as a young boy,my dad and I was introduced to an old opponent of Harry Greb, named Soldier Bartfield who playfully pulled me in a clinch and tattooed my ribs, until my dad pulled the 55 year old Bartfield off me..He meant no harm but my ribs sure were sore..So I was battered in the body by a fighter that fought the great Harry Greb several
times...


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Boggle said:


> I think the best fighters to give us an indication of Greb's style would have to be Ken Overlin and to a lesser extent, Joe Calzaghe. Even these are probably a bit of a stretch. Especially the Calzaghe comparison. They both had fast hands, a high work-rate and didn't usually sit on their punches. That's the extent of that.


The calzaghe reference is a good one.


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Burt Brooks said:


> B, Ken Overlin a greatly underated MW champion in his day was called "the poor man's Harry Greb" by many...Though flattered, Overlin commented
> "I am convinced Harry Greb would have licked me and my No1 challenger , on the same night with no rest in between ". Greb was an "original"
> in every way...His stamina was second to none...To have 299 recorded bouts against MWs, LHs, and HWs, with many 15 round bouts is astounding.
> In one year Greb had FORTY FIVE BOUTS, winning them ALL. He was almost impoosible to hit solidly as he was bouncing to and fro, and he was in attack mode every moment, shooting blows from every angle into his opponent's face.. He never gave his opponent the ball...
> ...


Great story!

I'm also sure Greb had a solid chin but I'm leaning towards the possibility of his defense being better. Just imagine how demoralizing it must be to fight an opponent where if you do manage to land a few gloves, it's mostly for naught because he has a solid chin.

I know you're a wealth of information when it comes to Harry Greb so, do you think, because he fought many fights with vision in only one eye that his movements and exaggerated angles were to help him get the best possible vision of his opponent's punches? Seems like something I'd do if I could only see out of one eye - keep on the move.


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## Burt Brooks (Jun 6, 2012)

Leeroy said:


> Great story!
> 
> I'm also sure Greb had a solid chin but I'm leaning towards the possibility of his defense being better. Just imagine how demoralizing it must be to fight an opponent where if you do manage to land a few gloves, it's mostly for naught because he has a solid chin.
> 
> I know you're a wealth of information when it comes to Harry Greb so, do you think, because he fought many fights with vision in only one eye that his movements and exaggerated angles were to help him get the best possible vision of his opponent's punches? Seems like something I'd do if I could only see out of one eye - keep on the move.


What I have read of Harry Greb, tells me that until he lost the sight of one eye, he was the same "Windmill" of his later days...But he did try to compensate
having no vision from one eye by adjusting his attack, though his opponents were too busy avoiding his ceasless volleys and barrages to probably 
notice...When a swarm of bees is attacking you, a change of direction wouldn't be noticable to you I should think...


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I wonder, if we had footage of his victories over tunney and walker, whether we'd be talking about the consensus goat ahead of robinson.


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

How much does everyone think the footage would be worth? Say, Tunney 1?


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> How much does everyone think the footage would be worth? Say, Tunney 1?


I'm not a collector so I'm unsure what the going rate for these things is.


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## Burt Brooks (Jun 6, 2012)

lufcrazy said:


> I wonder, if we had footage of his victories over tunney and walker, whether we'd be talking about the consensus goat ahead of robinson.


Luf, whether we had footage of Greb against Tunney or Mickey Walker would be like discovering the Holy Grail of boxing...
But I use this analogy...We judge the effects of a cyclone, by the enourmos damage it did to a town or city, though we never were present...I judge Harry Greb by his
amazing record fighting 299 bouts against great bigger HOF LHS and HWS, and beating eventually just about every great fighter he fought...And that is my criteria, because I have seen the sharpest looking fighters lose ,whilst other fighters don't look as good but they BEAT anyone...
For example,I saw a Tippy Larkin fight in the 1940s, who was so good a boxer/puncher that he won almost every round from the MASTER BOXER
Billy Graham in 1947, and outclassed another Master Boxer Willie Joyce, several times...He looked like a world beater but had no chin, whilst
other fighters without looking nowhere as good became champs...
So with Greb I think that his amazing record tells all about him...


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Burt Brooks said:


> Luf, whether we had footage of Greb against Tunney or Mickey Walker would be like discovering the Holy Grail of boxing...
> But I use this analogy...We judge the effects of a cyclone, by the enourmos damage it did to a town or city, though we never were present...I judge Harry Greb by his
> amazing record fighting 299 bouts against great bigger HOF LHS and HWS, and beating eventually just about every great fighter he fought...And that is my criteria, because I have seen the sharpest looking fighters lose ,whilst other fighters don't look as good but they BEAT anyone...
> For example,I saw a Tippy Larkin fight in the 1940s, who was so good a boxer/puncher that he won almost every round from the MASTER BOXER
> ...


no doubting greb is great.

my theory is that had more people watched greb fight more people would rate him as goat.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2012)

With regard to Greb being blind in one eye for his last 100 fights or so... I find that a bit hard to believe.

What troubles me, is the footage we have of Greb in training for the Walker fight - where he plays handball. Now, with no depth perception, I believe, you'd probably miss the ball half the time! Just try and play badminton, tennis, table tennis with a patch over one eye - and you would be completely helpless! As for boxing, I think you _*might*_ get away with one eye only, if you were a Henry Armstrong type of fighter, where you stand toe to toe, head in your opponent's chest, most of the time. Then the matter of correctly measuring distance, would be of minor importance.

But, according to what we know from contemporary reports, that was not Greb's way of fighting at all. On the contrary, he was supposed to be moving around all the time, darting in and out and flailing away at his opponents with blinding speed. A style like that would necessitate the ability to properly judge distance, I think.

I want to stress, that this in no way is an attempt to diminish Greb's accomplishments. His record speaks for itself, and in my book he may very well be the GOAT - blind in one eye or not!

PS: I might add, that on another site i recently asked Klompton, when the first reports surfaced in the press, that Greb was blind in one eye - to which he replied, that there were no reports to be found, from when he was still boxing. It was only after his death, that this was brought up.


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> How much does everyone think the footage would be worth? Say, Tunney 1?


I wouldn't even want to guess. Given the fact most old time boxing fans have him as a consensus top 3 pound for pound of all time and knowing we have no footage of him in action, peoples' curiosity would jack the price up big time. You have the perfect storm so to speak for a mega sale. Collectors would pay top dollar.

It's crazy to think some honyocks might have the film buried somewhere in their attic without even knowing they're sitting on a gold mine.


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Bukkake said:


> With regard to Greb being blind in one eye for his last 100 fights or so... I find that a bit hard to believe.
> 
> What troubles me, is the footage we have of Greb in training for the Walker fight - where he plays handball. Now, with no depth perception, I believe, you'd probably miss the ball half the time! Just try and play badminton, tennis, table tennis with a patch over one eye - and you would be completely helpless! As for boxing, I think you _*might*_ get away with one eye only, if you were a Henry Armstrong type of fighter, where you stand toe to toe, head in your opponent's chest, most of the time. Then the matter of correctly measuring distance, would be of minor importance.
> 
> ...


This is a very enlightening post worth consideration. His hand eye coordination must have took a dive if he supposedly fought with one eye.


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

Anyone fancy digging around some North Carolinian libraries? I'm a history graduate, so searching archives is what I'm best at :yep


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> Anyone fancy digging around some North Carolinian libraries? I'm a history graduate, so searching archives is what I'm best at :yep


Syracuse, NY. I've checked their digital library with no success. Luckily I live only an hour from there. One of these days I'm going to make a trip to their libraries.


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Syracuse was the last known place for the Tunney fight. Although I highly highly doubt it is still there. Could be in the university though. The great thing about non boxing fans is they would have no clue. It's best not to tip your hand if by some miracle you do stumble upon one of his fights. You'll have to buy it still but you won't be paying a fortune. I've already got it planned out that I'll say I'm a relative of Greb's. :lol:

I suggest you do the same if you discover it before I do.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Leeroy said:


> Syracuse was the last known place for the Tunney fight. Although I highly highly doubt it is still there. Could be in the university though. The great thing about non boxing fans is they would have no clue. It's best not to tip your hand if by some miracle you do stumble upon one of his fights. You'll have to buy it still but you won't be paying a fortune. I've already got it planned out that I'll say I'm a relative of Greb's. :lol:
> 
> I suggest you do the same if you discover it before I do.


I'm not sure what I'd do to be honest, in fact no I know exactly what I'd do, I'd contact StoneHands to see if he could verify it and then I'd probably put it on youtube (unless it's actually woth life changing money in which case I'd make a copy and sell it on)


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

Leeroy said:


> Syracuse was the last known place for the Tunney fight. Although I highly highly doubt it is still there. Could be in the university though. The great thing about non boxing fans is they would have no clue. It's best not to tip your hand if by some miracle you do stumble upon one of his fights. You'll have to buy it still but you won't be paying a fortune. I've already got it planned out that I'll say I'm a relative of Greb's. :lol:
> 
> I suggest you do the same if you discover it before I do.


Unfortunately I live in the east end of London (the Tunney fight could be in my local library, but I highly doubt it!) A 3 month trip to the US might be in order


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## Boogle McDougal (Jun 8, 2012)

On the subject of visualizing Greb's style...

Another poster mentioned him being like an unorthodox SRR. From what I've read, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Reading reports of his fights, you notice a lot of recurring themes: "windmilling" and surprisingly, more than on person describing him as "amateurish." I would imagine his style wasn't the most visually appealing, making him quite different from Robinson. However, there's no denying his effectiveness, regardless of how "amateurish" it may appear.


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

The 'anti-Robinson' perhaps.


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## Boogle McDougal (Jun 8, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken, both of Greb's fights with Tiger Flowers were filmed. These would be fascinating to see. From what I've read, these were some grueling fights. I've read reports that Greb was bleeding from around both eyes. Scary. That is some courage. You've got to wonder how impaired his vision was by then and to what extent it may have been further damaged by Flowers. He had his eye removed after that. 

Of course, it would be better if his bouts with Walker or Tunney were to surface. Better to see Greb at his best then see him in his final fights. Still though, any glimpse would be pretty great. 

Anybody hear the rumor that Mickey Walker asked Greb to go easy on him? Supposedly it was picked up by the microphones. Seems unlikely...


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## Leeroy (Jul 23, 2012)

Boggle said:


> If I'm not mistaken, both of Greb's fights with Tiger Flowers were filmed. These would be fascinating to see. From what I've read, these were some grueling fights. I've read reports that Greb was bleeding from around both eyes. Scary. That is some courage. You've got to wonder how impaired his vision was by then and to what extent it may have been further damaged by Flowers. He had his eye removed after that.
> 
> Of course, it would be better if his bouts with Walker or Tunney were to surface. Better to see Greb at his best then see him in his final fights. Still though, any glimpse would be pretty great.
> 
> Anybody hear the rumor that Mickey Walker asked Greb to go easy on him? Supposedly it was picked up by the microphones. Seems unlikely...


I have never heard that about the Walker/Greb fight. Interesting rumor. Greb wasn't even in his physical prime and he left walker in the dust towards the latter half of the fight. The little pug just couldn't cope with Greb's pressure.

Also, I hope you're not taking Greb's nickname "the human windmill" as literal. I doubt he really windmilled punches like some woman. The name was more for the fact he threw punches from all angles and was more metaphorical.

I would describe calzaghe as amateurish though.


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## Burt Brooks (Jun 6, 2012)

Bukkake said:


> With regard to Greb being blind in one eye for his last 100 fights or so... I find that a bit hard to believe.
> 
> What troubles me, is the footage we have of Greb in training for the Walker fight - where he plays handball. Now, with no depth perception, I believe, you'd probably miss the ball half the time! Just try and play badminton, tennis, table tennis with a patch over one eye - and you would be completely helpless! As for boxing, I think you _*might*_ get away with one eye only, if you were a Henry Armstrong type of fighter, where you stand toe to toe, head in your opponent's chest, most of the time. Then the matter of correctly measuring distance, would be of minor importance.
> 
> ...


Hya B


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## Boogle McDougal (Jun 8, 2012)

Leeroy said:


> I have never heard that about the Walker/Greb fight. Interesting rumor. Greb wasn't even in his physical prime and he left walker in the dust towards the latter half of the fight. The little pug just couldn't cope with Greb's pressure.
> 
> Also, I hope you're not taking Greb's nickname "the human windmill" as literal. I doubt he really windmilled punches like some woman. The name was more for the fact he threw punches from all angles and was more metaphorical.
> 
> I would describe calzaghe as amateurish though.


As for taking "the human windmill" nickname literally... what I was saying wasn't just in reference to his nickname. I've read first hand accounts that use the term "windmilling." How else am I supposed to interpret that? I've also read reports that described him as "flailing." For all I know, he did windmill punches "like some woman" lol. Anyway, I take all of these accounts with a grain of salt when assembling my composite mental image of Greb.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

I rate him as having the best record of any fighter but I can't put him at GOAT or say he'd beat such and such a fighter with any certainty due to lack of footage


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

JamieC said:


> I rate him as having the best record of any fighter but I can't put him at GOAT or say he'd beat such and such a fighter with any certainty due to lack of footage


Do you have Ray Robinson as the best Welterweight ever? We only have a brief grainy clip of his 147 days after all.


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## Burt Brooks (Jun 6, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> Do you have Ray Robinson as the best Welterweight ever? We only have a brief grainy clip of his 147 days after all.


And we DON"t have ONE clip of Jack Britton who had 344 fights and was only stopped ONE time as a prelim boy...ONE TIME...
Nor do we have one clip of Barbados joe Walcott the great WW who fought LHs...
P.S. V, I was lucky as a youngster to see the magnificent Ray Robinson several times in his WW prime...Tremendous was he...


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> Do you have Ray Robinson as the best Welterweight ever? We only have a brief grainy clip of his 147 days after all.


True but I know Ray was a phenomenal fighter I can't make the same judgment for Greb myself so it isn't as valid to me, how people can give stylistic breakdowns in fantasy match ups involving Greb I don't know, im sure he was a fantastic fighter though no doubt just saying I can't bring myself to put him above SRR


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Burt Brooks said:


> And we DON"t have ONE clip of Jack Britton who had 344 fights and was only stopped ONE time as a prelim boy...ONE TIME...
> Nor do we have one clip of Barbados joe Walcott the great WW who fought LHs...
> P.S. V, I was lucky as a youngster to see the magnificent Ray Robinson several times in his WW prime...Tremendous was he...


Those are memories money can not buy Burt, what I wouldn't give!


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

JamieC said:


> True but I know Ray was a phenomenal fighter I can't make the same judgment for Greb myself so it isn't as valid to me, how people can give stylistic breakdowns in fantasy match ups involving Greb I don't know, im sure he was a fantastic fighter though no doubt just saying I can't bring myself to put him above SRR


I agree with you in part. There's no way I could ring myself to say 'Greb would have beaten every MW in history' as its not a valid statement with the lack of footage. But what I can say is that he has the most impressive resume in history, and the opponents he beat look awesome on film. He is my number 1. But it's a personally opinion.

I tend to think that Greb, Robinson, Armatrong, Langford, Charles, Duran and Fitzsimmons can all be called the GOAT.


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

Burt Brooks said:


> And we DON"t have ONE clip of Jack Britton who had 344 fights and was only stopped ONE time as a prelim boy...ONE TIME...
> Nor do we have one clip of Barbados joe Walcott the great WW who fought LHs...
> P.S. V, I was lucky as a youngster to see the magnificent Ray Robinson several times in his WW prime...Tremendous was he...


Lucky man!


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## Burt Brooks (Jun 6, 2012)

JamieC said:


> Those are memories money can not buy Burt, what I wouldn't give!


I'll make a bargain J...I'll give you my experiences in return for your age ?


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Vano-irons said:


> I agree with you in part. There's no way I could ring myself to say 'Greb would have beaten every MW in history' as its not a valid statement with the lack of footage. But what I can say is that he has the most impressive resume in history, and the opponents he beat look awesome on film. He is my number 1. But it's a personally opinion.
> 
> I tend to think that Greb, Robinson, Armatrong, Langford, Charles, Duran and Fitzsimmons can all be called the GOAT.


Agree with that, the point I was trying to make, but much more succinct!


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Burt Brooks said:


> I'll make a bargain J...I'll give you my experiences in return for your age ?


Thats seems a fair swap to me! To have seen just some of the things you have seen in boxing would make me a happy man, as long as I can keep my carl froch Lucian bute memory?


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## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

How good was greb victim frank moody?

Here is a link to see frank moodys brother talk about his fight vs tiger flowers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/9034695.stm


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

:happy


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## Mugshot (Jun 11, 2013)

Burt Brooks said:


> Luf, whether we had footage of Greb against Tunney or Mickey Walker would be like discovering the Holy Grail of boxing...
> But I use this analogy...We judge the effects of a cyclone, by the enourmos damage it did to a town or city, though we never were present...I judge Harry Greb by his
> amazing record fighting 299 bouts against great bigger HOF LHS and HWS, and beating eventually just about every great fighter he fought...And that is my criteria, because I have seen the sharpest looking fighters lose ,whilst other fighters don't look as good but they BEAT anyone...
> For example,I saw a Tippy Larkin fight in the 1940s, who was so good a boxer/puncher that he won almost every round from the MASTER BOXER
> ...


Wonderful, wonderful post, all around. And Harry Greb was just that-a cataclysmic disaster for any opponent unfortunate enough to step into the ring with him. You didn't fight Greb-you could only hope to fight him off.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

If he fought Dempsey we'd also most likely have some tape of him
Imagine that :ibutt
I WILL SEE GREB FIGHT ONE DAY!


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