# Why Juan Manuel Márquez Beats Timothy Bradley



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

(HUGE thanks to my boy @tezel8764, couldn't have done it without your beautiful GIFs.)

*Without question, this is one of the better fights to have been made in boxing. And as versatile as Bradley is, and as questionable as a 40 year old welterweight Marquez might be, I believe the Mexican legend makes history and boosts his legacy by beating Timothy Bradley and handing him his first official loss.

The way I see it, Marquez has an advantage no matter where the fight is fought, in terms of range or ring geography.

One of the most obvious tools Bradley has at his disposal is his ability to pressure and bully on the inside with his head down like a pit bull. On the inside, Bradley has a tendency to throw wide, and leaves himself off balance as he throws. He seems to try and summon power from his upper body, rather than from his feet, legs, and hips. This resulted in Provodnikov being able to use some little mentioned head movement that greatly reduced Bradley's accuracy to the head, despite his accuracy to the body and overall high volume.

























Against the ropes, Marquez is even better at keeping his head low and moving at the waist to evade shots and set up his sharp counters. Here, Marquez is handily able to roll with or slip numerous punches from Katsidis, who despite being a more limited fighter than Bradley, is tighter chest-to-chest. Were Bradley to close the distances and push JMM to the ropes, his style of aggression would lend itself to Marquez's counter-punching maneuvers.
























If Bradley were to pressure in the center of the ring, despite having the seemingly faster footwork, Bradley seems easily displaced as he sets himself to throw combinations. Provodnikov easily takes a step back and ducks down, leaving Bradley swinging at air exposed.










In the middle of the ring, Bradley might have more success trying to ambush Marquez moving in and out, and using his speed to blitz him. The most similar boxer-puncher with hand speed JMM has faced is Juan Diaz. After having trouble early with Diaz's volume in exchanges, Marquez adjusted by maintain distance while turning, setting up his uppers upstairs with shots to the body, and throwing tighter to be first consistently.


















































































Similarly, against Casamayor, Marquez adjusted as the fight went on, throwing tighter in mid-range exchanges and throwing shots that Casa didn't see coming.


























































Now, on the outside, many expect Bradley to post the most problems there, using his quick jab, footwork, and upper body movement, partially re-creating the problems that Norwood, John, and Mayweather all presented him with as they made him lead. The issue with Bradley being able to work his game-plan consistently is that he drops his hands so often while shooting from the outside, that he is vulnerable to counters from a far.










In particular, Bradley seems vulnerable to two-step counters, the first step being the bait, and the second being the follow up shot that exploits the opening.


















As frustrated as Marquez has looked at times coming forward consistently against mobile fighters, his identity as an aggressive counter-puncher consists of a great ability to bait openings and capitalize on them.


















In particular, from outside, Bradley's left hand is easily countered, especially with an overhand right over it. This is one shot that I feel might be most consistently available to Marquez, and the shot that might have the best chance at scoring Marquez a KO. Against Provodnikov, this shot landed again and again.

Round 4:

















Round 6:








Round 7:








Round 8:








Round 9:
















Round 10:









Against Diaz, Marquez was able to angle this shot over Diaz's jab thrown below shoulder level (as is Bradley's), and this was also the power shot that he was landing most consistently on Floyd Mayweather Jr. Floyd's jab was far too long for JMM to counter, but his counter left hook was short enough to allow JMM to reach Floyd up top. Bradley's jab is not as quick, not as long, and his left is very open to counters as well.

As early as round 2, Marquez was timing Diaz's jab from the outside. 








Round 3: 
















Round 9

















Against Mayweather:


























In short, Marquez will out-craft him on the inside, out-time him at mid-range, and out-smart him on the outside, as his offensive and defensive strengths correlate directly with Bradley's stylistic weaknesses.

Discuss :bbb
*


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

good stuff man. This is one of the most detailed breakdowns I've seen. And good call on the overhand right over Bradley's jab, that's the punch I felt would eat him up also. If Bradley isn't damaged, I think he'll go the distance because of his conditioning and his heart. I hope I'm right. Both are my favorite fighters in boxing right now behind Mayweather and Mike Jones


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

JUAN by accumulation stoppage


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Excellent thread, Bogo. Great GIFs as well! Much props to both you and tezel.

I got JMM winning this by a close UD in a fight where both Juan and Tim will constantly be switching the roles of aggressor and counterpuncher.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

:deal


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## JDK (Jun 3, 2013)

It's pretty safe to assume you're great with PP presentations for school/work :lol: 
Good work putting all that together. Marquez does have a lot of tools and varies their use depending on his opponent's style, but the main reason I see him winning next month is due more on Bradley's inability of maintaining a consistent plan. 
It's hard to root for either fighter .. both are good people


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## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

Pleasure to read, as always. I'm in agreement. A lot of people seem.to think Bradley will use his movement and outside boxing skills to befuddle and keep a front-foot Marquez off-balance, but I don't see him as having the distance control, range, or defensive tools to do this with great success. To me, it's a fight where Bradley will definitely have success in spots with whatever look he gives, but one in which Marquez will ultimately have the antidote to everything. 

I'm also kind of concerned about Timmy's health and punch resistance after his last fight. That's the kind of beating that takes years off of your career and Marquez has some serious power and precision on his side to make this a really really bad night for him.


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## I am tyler (Dec 20, 2012)

Brilliant post. I think it's a real 50/50 fight. It depends how Bradley is after the Provodnikov fight. Marquez is past prime and his last win was against a past prime opponent, even though their past primes are better than most's primes. Bradley could be damaged goods. I think Bradley will also box. Either way it will be a close fight and my initial prediction was Marquez decision. But part of me thinks Bradley will get it.


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## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

im slightly worried, bradley just boxes of the back foot, trying to get marquez coming forward, and beats matquez with his pitter patter flurries. similar to the last 5 rounds against pac and the rounds he won in the last fight


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## Hatesrats (Jun 6, 2013)

Good stuff as usual Bogo...
Im pumped for this fight, Hope both guys bring it.
(2 of my favorite fighters around)

Guerra "Dinamita"
WAR "Desert Storm"


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## ^_^ (Sep 2, 2013)

This used to be a 70/30 fight in favor of Bradley. Team Marquez, especially Nacho, explicitly stated that they did NOT want to fight Bradley, citing his ugly style and dirty tactics. Since Ruslan concussed Timmeh 3X and had him talking Chinese for 2 months, I give Temmeh no chance of beating JMM. JMM KOs him early.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

One thing I disagree with is that Bradley's punches on the inside are wide they are damn short in my opinion JMM needs more space to throw his punches he isn't doing the same as Bradley who is really smothering he throwing power punches but he needs more space. And even though he is hittable Bradley could outwork JMM on the outside not with quality but with quantity and if he gets hit he has a damn solid chin so in my opinion it's a lot harder for Marquez than you make it out to be


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

I am also 40.
Just like Marquez.How cool is that?


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## ^_^ (Sep 2, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> I am also 40.
> Just like Marquez.How cool is that?


That's fucking crazy. One of my co-workers is also 40.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Not been mentioned as much as Bradley possibly being ruined by Provodnikov, but what if Márquez grows old overnight? This is one reason I give Bradley a great chance of winning this :tim


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## ^_^ (Sep 2, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Not been mentioned as much as Bradley possibly being ruined by Provodnikov, but what if Márquez grows old overnight? This is one reason I give Bradley a great chance of winning this :tim


Marquez was supposed to have grown old after the Diaz fight.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

^_^ said:


> Marquez was supposed to have grown old after the Diaz fight.


Nobody lasts forever, look at Martínez against Murray, who was expecting it to be that tough for him? Look at Vitali struggling like hell in his 40s


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## ^_^ (Sep 2, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Nobody lasts forever, look at Martínez against Murray, who was expecting it to be that tough for him? Look at Vitali struggling like hell in his 40s


Well, Chabbit Jr. soul-raped Sergio(e).


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## KLion22 (Jun 4, 2013)

You're not giving Tim much credit and only pointing out his flaws. JMM thrives off of guys who come at him which allows him to counter with his pin point combinations. Katsidis, Diaz, Pac, etc. It's a different story if guys are trying to box him. Look how lost JMM looked against Floyd when JMM had to press the action and had nothing to work with in the countering department. Granted Floyd is an ATG but it was a white wash. Tim will also utilize his superior foot and hand speed and not just stand in front of JMM. JMM, as great as he is, fights almost completely flat footed. He needs guys to come at him to look good. 

Also, JMM is good in close quarters but is not a good in-fighter in terms of fighting chest to chest. He always likes a little room to let his combinations go. Tim is a good in-fighter. He can get in your chest and stay there and land some good shots. So I can envision Tim possibly having the upper hand at distance and in close quarters. The only time JMM will truly have the upper hand is in the exchanges. That's when Tim has to be careful and try not to get into too many of them or he will get caught with big shots. 

I see Tim winning and possibly convincingly. Now if the Ruslan fight really took something from him, then who knows. But if he's at least 90% of the old Tim, JMM doesn't have a chance. People's perceptions of JMM have been completely distorted due to his KO win over a guy who he possibly had beaten 3 previous times and think that this situation applies to every other fighter.


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## ~Cellzki~ (Jun 3, 2013)

Timmy by UD


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## The Wanderer (Jul 17, 2013)

Great post as usual Bogo, and thanks as always for sharing your insights. However, while I do feel that Bradley is coming into this fight outgunned, I do have to say that I think it may be mistaken to base so much of your analysis of him around the Provodnikov fight, considering the injuries Bradley sustained early on and how they affected him throughout. Also, he himself says that he wasn't fighting in his usual style, and I think it's a fair description.

That said, Bradley is going into the fight against a craftier fighter who's also a better puncher, which is never a good thing.


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## Executioner (Jun 4, 2013)

there isn't that much to analyze from bradley from his last fight...he was very reckless and had something to prove


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> One thing I disagree with is that Bradley's punches on the inside are wide they are damn short in my opinion JMM needs more space to throw his punches he isn't doing the same as Bradley who is really smothering he throwing power punches but he needs more space. And even though he is hittable Bradley could outwork JMM on the outside not with quality but with quantity and if he gets hit he has a damn solid chin so in my opinion it's a lot harder for Marquez than you make it out to be


Look at this wideness and how open Bradley is dropping his hands to throw:










This is exactly the sort of onslaught Bradley would bring. Watch JMM avoid getting hit flush with pretty much every shot.










I never said it would be easy, only that at any range, JMM has the tools to figure him out. Tighter and craftier on the inside, thinks more steps ahead at mid-range, and too experienced & smart on the outside.



The Wanderer said:


> Great post as usual Bogo, and thanks as always for sharing your insights. However, while I do feel that Bradley is coming into this fight outgunned, I do have to say that* I think it may be mistaken to base so much of your analysis of him around the Provodnikov fight, considering the injuries Bradley sustained early on and how they affected him throughout. Also, he himself says that he wasn't fighting in his usual style, and I think it's a fair description.*
> 
> That said, Bradley is going into the fight against a craftier fighter who's also a better puncher, which is never a good thing.





Executioner said:


> there isn't that much to analyze from bradley from his last fight...he was very reckless and had something to prove


There is. I focused specifically on rounds Bradley chose to box. Those rounds were some of the best displays of boxing Bradley has shown in his whole career, and it's what won him the fight on the scorecards. It's his boxing skill at its most precise for the sake of victory and survival. In what other fight has Bradley shown so much versatility and movement and volume and use of the jab? People get caught up remembering the crazy moments of the fight and forget the long stretch in which Bradley dominated with his skill. Is Bradley's tendency to bring his jab back low and get countered with a right due to getting hurt in round 2? I don't think so.

(Plus I included tendencies he showed in the Pacquiao fight as well, who has a few similar bait-and-counter moves to JMM.)



KLion22 said:


> You're not giving Tim much credit and only pointing out his flaws. JMM thrives off of guys who come at him which allows him to counter with his pin point combinations. Katsidis, Diaz, Pac, etc. It's a different story if guys are trying to box him. Look how lost JMM looked against Floyd when JMM had to press the action and had nothing to work with in the countering department. Granted Floyd is an ATG but it was a white wash. Tim will also utilize his superior foot and hand speed and not just stand in front of JMM. JMM, as great as he is, fights almost completely flat footed. He needs guys to come at him to look good.


It's not that I'm not giving Bradley credit. In fact, I approached the analysis with his *strengths* in mind. It's just that his strengths have built-in weaknesses that JMM has exploited in the past.

I just showed you, specifically, why JMM will still figure him out at mid and long range, even if Bradley doesn't stand in front of him.



KLion22 said:


> Also, JMM is good in close quarters but is not a good in-fighter in terms of fighting chest to chest. He always likes a little room to let his combinations go. Tim is a good in-fighter. He can get in your chest and stay there and land some good shots. So I can envision Tim possibly having the upper hand at distance and in close quarters. The only time JMM will truly have the upper hand is in the exchanges. That's when Tim has to be careful and try not to get into too many of them or he will get caught with big shots.


JMM makes room with his body positioning and lateral movement. If he can't punch you off or push you off, he'll turn you or spin out and leave you on the ropes, just as the GIFs indicate. Bradley is better at smothering, but the moment he chooses to throw, he's wide and drops his hands.



KLion22 said:


> I see Tim winning and possibly convincingly. Now if the Ruslan fight really took something from him, then who knows. But if he's at least 90% of the old Tim, JMM doesn't have a chance. People's perceptions of JMM have been completely distorted due to his KO win over a guy who he possibly had beaten 3 previous times and think that this situation applies to every other fighter.


The only thing Ruslan could have done to him is ruined his chin. So if JMM KO's him easily, he might have an argument, even though JMM has proven he's a sharp and hard puncher. But if Tim comes out as sharp and quick as ever and loses, I don't want to hear excuses, because I just explained why, even at his best, Bradley will lose. It has nothing to do with the Pac KO because I didn't even include the Pacquiao fight in my analysis of Marquez's abilities.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Look at this wideness and how open Bradley is dropping his hands to throw:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


JMM needs more space to throw punches he is an offensive counterpuncher but he looks like he doesn't really enjoy the high volume of punches thrown at him he can capitalize on it in that it gives him opennings to throw hard counters (but again he needs more space to throw them than what Bradley gave Provodnikov in the first gif) but he gets at least grazed by blows because he just can't do both throw hard counters in exchanges and perfectly evade each shot in a long combination from a fighter with good handspeed. He gets hit even if he rolls with punches and he is willing to do that if he sees an opportunity or trained for a specific one like he did vs Pacquiao in their last fight he will looks for it throw counters on exchanges and fight but you can see that he's at the same time always looking for a psecific counter and he's so focused to land it in his fights that he's willing to give up a little bit on his defence to land it and if Bradley finds a way to outthrow him either in close and JMM can't create enough space for his counters or on the outside with a lot of foot movement he can just win on volume and his sick chin makes it even harder for JMM since one shot alone isn't going to change the course of the fight. This fight will be decides on small errors and capitalizing on those errors from each fighter


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## KLion22 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogo,

I just think you can overanalyze a fight sometimes. Not saying you are because you obviously box and know the sport a lot better than me but sometimes I think one can get too analytical and just miss the big, obvious points because they are so focused on a specific aspect. For example, your primary two examples are of Katsidis and Diaz. Both come forward fighters. They would happily get hit 3 times to land 1. The perfect style match up for a guy like JMM. Also, you don't bring up the fact that JMM got hit a lot in both fights. Tim is not like them, at least he has more variety to his game and can box and move. Sure he can get caught up in exchanges when they don't serve him well but he can box and move and fight smartly when it's necessary, something those guys couldn't do.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> JMM needs more space to throw punches he is an offensive counterpuncher but he looks like he doesn't really enjoy the high volume of punches thrown at him he can capitalize on it in that it gives him opennings to throw hard counters (but again he needs more space to throw them than what Bradley gave Provodnikov in the first gif) but he gets at least grazed by blows because he just can't do both throw hard counters in exchanges and perfectly evade each shot in a long combination from a fighter with good handspeed. He gets hit even if he rolls with punches and he is willing to do that if he sees an opportunity or trained for a specific one like he did vs Pacquiao in their last fight he will looks for it throw counters on exchanges and fight but you can see that he's at the same time always looking for a psecific counter and he's so focused to land it in his fights that he's willing to give up a little bit on his defence to land it and if Bradley finds a way to outthrow him either in close and JMM can't create enough space for his counters or on the outside with a lot of foot movement he can just win on volume and his sick chin makes it even harder for JMM since one shot alone isn't going to change the course of the fight. This fight will be decides on small errors and capitalizing on those errors from each fighter


Does he need much more room? Katsidis had him chest to chest, and JMM was able to punch him off or turn him. He controlled the center very well in that fight in the mid-rounds, and against Diaz, he was able to turn and escape and get the better punches off consistently. Provodnikov himself doesn't have to do much to punch and counter in the pocket. Bradley often obliges himself with the wideness of his shits. Just look at his hands-down chin-in-the-air approach against Alexander in the mid-late rounds.

Marquez does get grazed when he rolls with punches, but it's because he makes his offense a priority at close quarters. It doesn't bother me that he chooses to do so, especially against Bradley, because punch for punch, even if they simply exchange, Marquez will be more accurate. He's defensive enough to neutralize Bradley's inside work, and offensively sharp enough to fight fire with fire and win.



KLion22 said:


> Bogo,
> 
> I just think you can overanalyze a fight sometimes. Not saying you are because you obviously box and know the sport a lot better than me but sometimes I think one can get too analytical and just miss the big, obvious points because they are so focused on a specific aspect. For example, your primary two examples are of Katsidis and Diaz. Both come forward fighters. They would happily get hit 3 times to land 1. The perfect style match up for a guy like JMM. Also, you don't bring up the fact that JMM got hit a lot in both fights. Tim is not like them, at least he has more variety to his game and can box and move. Sure he can get caught up in exchanges when they don't serve him well but he can box and move and fight smartly when it's necessary, something those guys couldn't do.


It's a fair point that sometimes looking too close doesn't let you see the bigger picture. But my arguments are actually quite simple, only looking complicated when fleshed out.

On Diaz and Katsidis, you're not wrong that Marquez took punishment in that fight. But the way that he overcame those moments bear more consequence. Diaz and Katsidis are pressure fighters by trade; it's their bread and butter. Both are tighter and more consistent and more dangerous pressure fighters. They are not more versatile than Bradley, but in this one area, they posed more of a threat to Marquez, and he was able to use his defensive maneuvers and offensive traits to neutralize and beat them. It's only logical for one to assume.

On the point of Bradley moving, I addressed how JMM would deal with that obstacle. In the Pac GIFs, Bradley is shown to be vulnerable to two-step counters. Against Diaz in the rematch (just as one sample), where Diaz elected to box (and looked good doing it), JMM was able to use his trademark offensive maneuvers to open and exploit openings. Again, my argument is that they will translate. In particular the overhand right. That's the most blatant one of all. Marquez's best punch is one which Bradley got hit with every damn round by a less accurate fighter during the stretch of the fight he was using his boxing. The correlations are simply too strong to ignore.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Does he need much more room? Katsidis had him chest to chest, and JMM was able to punch him off or turn him. He controlled the center very well in that fight in the mid-rounds, and against Diaz, he was able to turn and escape and get the better punches off consistently. Provodnikov himself doesn't have to do much to punch and counter in the pocket. Bradley often obliges himself with the wideness of his shits. Just look at his hands-down chin-in-the-air approach against Alexander in the mid-late rounds.
> 
> Marquez does get grazed when he rolls with punches, but it's because he makes his offense a priority at close quarters. It doesn't bother me that he chooses to do so, especially against Bradley, because punch for punch, even if they simply exchange, Marquez will be more accurate. He's defensive enough to neutralize Bradley's inside work, and offensively sharp enough to fight fire with fire and win.


Bradley is a better fighter than Katsidis it's that easy. Turning Bradley is going to be hard and he landed shots against Katsidis in close but even if he won it wasn't a walk in the park for JMM after he few rounds he just prevailed because he was the better fighter and landed the better shots and it started to take it's toll on Katsidis but Bradley is better at smothering you he is a different kind of close to you and he is going to throw at a much higher volume and his conditioning is superb he won't slow down. JMM is most likely never going to be in danger but that's not what I'm saying Bradley doesn't slow down, his chin is great (if Provodnikov didn't damage it) and he throws at a very high volume while JMM is willing to take shots which means the judges might see it different if JMM can't finish Bradley or at least hurt him badly. 
I'm saying it now if the the goes the distance without neither man getting seriously hurt during the fight or even if someone does it's going to be an ugly decision and fans will argue who really won


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> Bradley is a better fighter than Katsidis it's that easy.


But is he a *more dangerous fighter up close?* I think it's easy to say yes. Katsidis is the more dangerous puncher, the more voluminous puncher, and is more physical. And JMM overcame him in the moments they were in close quarters. using the maneuvers I highlighted.



PivotPunch said:


> Turning Bradley is going to be hard and he landed shots against Katsidis in close but even if he won it wasn't a walk in the park for JMM after he few rounds he just prevailed because he was the better fighter and landed the better shots and it started to take it's toll on Katsidis but Bradley is better at smothering you he is a different kind of close to you and he is going to throw at a much higher volume and his conditioning is superb he won't slow down. JMM is most likely never going to be in danger but that's not what I'm saying Bradley doesn't slow down, his chin is great (if Provodnikov didn't damage it) and he throws at a very high volume while JMM is willing to take shots which means the judges might see it different if JMM can't finish Bradley or at least hurt him badly.
> I'm saying it now if the the goes the distance without neither man getting seriously hurt during the fight or even if someone does it's going to be an ugly decision and fans will argue who really won


As I said, Bradley's smothering isn't that relevant because he's not a consistent fighter who will corner you with slow, mounting pressure as Katsidis does. When Bradley elects to throw, he will be lifting his smother, and he will be throwing wide with his hands down and Marquez will take that opportunity. Just look at Provodnikov, who isn't even a counter-puncher, get shots through simply by answering after Bradley misses. Again, look at how he threw against Alexander. Reckless.

More volume from Bradley means more opportunities for JMM to land. But show me a fight in which Bradley pressured as consistently as Katsidis has? Bradley simply isn't going to win the fight at close quarters. He's not going to land the harder shots or defend himself better. I don't think his smothering tactics will be that effective, not more effective than Diaz or Katsidis who are more consistent pressure fighters.


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## ^_^ (Sep 2, 2013)

Anyone think Timmeh will go back to his headbutting ways? Nacho's voiced concern and I think the only reason it didn't happen in the Pac fight was because the media made a big deal about Timmeh's dome.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> But is he a *more dangerous fighter up close?* I think it's easy to say yes. Katsidis is the more dangerous puncher, the more voluminous puncher, and is more physical. And JMM overcame him in the moments they were in close quarters. using the maneuvers I highlighted.
> 
> As I said, Bradley's smothering isn't that relevant because he's not a consistent fighter who will corner you with slow, mounting pressure as Katsidis does. When Bradley elects to throw, he will be lifting his smother, and he will be throwing wide with his hands down and Marquez will take that opportunity. Just look at Provodnikov, who isn't even a counter-puncher, get shots through simply by answering after Bradley misses. Again, look at how he threw against Alexander. Reckless.
> 
> More volume from Bradley means more opportunities for JMM to land. But show me a fight in which Bradley pressured as consistently as Katsidis has? Bradley simply isn't going to win the fight at close quarters. He's not going to land the harder shots or defend himself better. I don't think his smothering tactics will be that effective, not more effective than Diaz or Katsidis who are more consistent pressure fighters.


He doesn't need to be more consistent than Katsidis if he changes his rythm from smothering to moving and jabbing the whole fight it will only make it harder for JMM to focus on his big counters of course it would also leave more room for error on Bradley's part but it also makes it harder for JMM to land his big counters since he always prepares for them even if it means to take shots JMM is like a cyborg he ahs a plan and he's reading you analyzing you and he's kinda buffering his counters but it needs time until they are at 100% and he waits until they are at a 100% he throws other shots as well but you can see the difference in his huge counters like the one floored Manny with and the punches he's throwing while "buffering" his punches. 
If Bradley changes his rythm it's like you when you download something but have to stop the download every now and then to focus on other things because it slows your computer down if Bradley changes his rythm JMM needs more time even if Bradley is at the danger of making more errors if he does.
I know that sounds like one of Teddy Atlas' analogies but it's the best way I can describe it


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> He doesn't need to be more consistent than Katsidis if he changes his rythm from smothering to moving and jabbing the whole fight it will only make it harder for JMM to focus on his big counters of course it would also leave more room for error on Bradley's part but it also makes it harder for JMM to land his big counters since he always prepares for them even if it means to take shots JMM is like a cyborg he ahs a plan and he's reading you analyzing you and he's kinda buffering his counters but it needs time until they are at 100% and he waits until they are at a 100% he throws other shots as well but you can see the difference in his huge counters like the one floored Manny with and the punches he's throwing while "buffering" his punches.
> If Bradley changes his rythm it's like you when you download something but have to stop the download every now and then to focus on other things because it slows your computer down if Bradley changes his rythm JMM needs more time even if Bradley is at the danger of making more errors if he does.
> I know that sounds like one of Teddy Atlas' analogies but it's the best way I can describe it


I agree with this because against a smart counter puncher like JMM, a diversity of tactics is a great way to bank rounds before he has time to adjust. If Bradley smothers when it's convenient for him, then switches it up to the outside before JMM has a chance to get off, then starts going in and out before JMM can time his jab, etc., he can outbox him. So this is Bradley's best chance and you did a good job of indicating how he can make it work for him. I like the buffering analogy.

My whole thing is, I don't think Bradley is good enough at switching roles between aggressor and boxer. Not fluid or dynamic enough. Against Pacquiao, he looked to have the perfect game-plan on the mitts; jab towards the left away from Many's left, set up the right, and weave under to get inside and circle out. Problem was, Bradley never quite found his range and was jabbing too far out which allowed Manny to just step over and find him again. Only towards the end was he rushing forward to beat up Pac in the clinch but by then it was too late.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

@Roe, article-worthy?


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'll never be comfortable betting against Bradley.

Most boxers have something that they do better than most, be it speed, power or technique. Bradley's special talent appears to be an ability to win, no matter what.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Phenomenal breakdown as always. Love reading your stuff.

I've said it before, and I'll say it every JMM fight from here on out. I've seen a lot of fighters get old in one fight. That's the biggest variable for me.


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## Snakefist (Oct 22, 2012)

Bradley gets wild, he is getting KO'd. Marquez has already fought swarmers who come attempting to make a rough fight. Getting him against the ropes and doing this, will only leave you to be countered to death like Diaz.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> I'll never be comfortable betting against Bradley.
> 
> Most boxers have something that they do better than most, be it speed, power or technique. Bradley's special talent appears to be an ability to win, no matter what.


Look I don't like emmanuel either, but emmanuel clearly beat Timmeh


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## ^_^ (Sep 2, 2013)

Bradley's brain before Ruslan.










Timmeh's brain after Ruslan.










Timmeh's brain after Juan.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> I'll never be comfortable betting against Bradley.
> 
> Most boxers have something that they do better than most, be it speed, power or technique. Bradley's special talent appears to be an ability to win, no matter what.


wouldn't you just love a match between him and Danny Garcia :jjj


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> wouldn't you just love a match between him and Danny Garcia :jjj


:yep


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> I'll never be comfortable betting against Bradley.
> 
> Most boxers have something that they do better than most, be it speed, power or technique. Bradley's special talent appears to be an ability to win, no matter what.


I saw that fire leave his eyes in the late rounds against Pacquiao. He had accepted defeat. He can be broken.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I saw that fire leave his eyes in the late rounds against Pacquiao. He had accepted defeat. He can be broken.


really? That's where he showed his heart.

I had him winning rounds 1, 10, 11, and 12

It was in the middle rounds where he showed some discouragement. Had a look on his face like he nearly died


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> really? That's where he showed his heart.
> 
> I had him winning rounds 1, 10, 11, and 12
> 
> It was in the middle rounds where he showed some discouragement. Had a look on his face like he nearly died


That is when he won the most rounds, I guess I mean he looked discouraged in the mid-rounds and just didn't do enough in the late rounds. He was more active but it wasn't looking like "win or die" to me.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> really? That's where he showed his heart.
> 
> I had him winning rounds 1, 10, 11, and 12
> 
> It was in the middle rounds where he showed some discouragement. Had a look on his face like he nearly died


How about the 7th round?

I gave that one to Bradley, and HBO's stupid asses of showing their little replay of the round without sound, thinking it would convince us it was a clear round for Pacquiao, further convinced me even more that it was a clear Bradley round.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That is when he won the most rounds, I guess I mean he looked discouraged in the mid-rounds and just didn't do enough in the late rounds. He was more active but it wasn't looking like "win or die" to me.


His options were limited. He can't KO a great chin, and headbutting for a KO probably didn't even cross his mind



Zopilote said:


> How about the 7th round?
> 
> I gave that one to Bradley, and HBO's stupid asses of showing their little replay of the round without sound, thinking it would convince us it was a clear round for Pacquiao, further convinced me even more that it was a clear Bradley round.


hbo was a social terrorist that night

in my limited experience as a boxing fan, I never seen hbo conduct more social terrorism for any fighter other than emmanuel

that crap they orchestrated during the JUAN-emmanuel and Timmeh fights was like a smack across the face to boxing fans worldwide. yes many boxing fans are stupid, but do you think they're all that stupid that they can't tell when you're outright lying to their faces


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## KLion22 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I saw that fire leave his eyes in the late rounds against Pacquiao. He had accepted defeat. He can be broken.


He actually digged down deep and worked hard to sweep the last 2 rounds to get the decision. I've never seen Bradley discouraged in a fight. He always brings it, even after he is kd or hurt.


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## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

JMM is going to stop bradley but is JMM taking the test?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

KLion22 said:


> He actually digged down deep and worked hard to sweep the last 2 rounds to get the decision. I've never seen Bradley discouraged in a fight. He always brings it, even after he is kd or hurt.


He didn't deserve the decision any way you cut it and he certainly didn't act like he thought he won by the end. He was visibly discouraged in the mid-rounds, during the fight and inbetween rounds.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> wouldn't you just love a match between him and Danny Garcia :jjj


Been saying all along that Bradley would of beaten LM. :yep

Garcia impresses me more every time I see him. Do you think he's next for Mayweather?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

heavyweightcp said:


> JMM is going to stop bradley but is JMM taking the test?


Yes, NSAC testing which comports with WADA protocols.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> Been saying all along that Bradley would of beaten LM. :yep
> 
> Garcia impresses me more every time I see him. Do you think he's next for Mayweather?


Let DANI have 2-3 fights at welter first. Clearly the only "new guy" GBP has from 140-154 with the dedication and skills to become a HOF'er.

Let his hype marinate for awhile

RENE gon get this work after he upsets Adrien. There's a plotline they can use


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> Let DANI have 2-3 fights at welter first. Clearly the only "new guy" GBP has from 140-154 with the dedication and skills to become a HOF'er.
> 
> Let his hype marinate for awhile
> 
> RENE gon get this work after he upsets Adrien. There's a plotline they can use


You seem _really_ keen on that upset. Can I ask why?


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You seem _really_ keen on that upset. Can I ask why?


Check out Adrien vs Quintero soon. It's a short fight with only 8 rounds. They were both prospects with "0s", but Adrien has the amateur pedigree. I was half asleep while watching it late at night, but I gave 5 rounds to Quintero. My point is it was close enough even though Quintero was greatly inexperienced compared to Adrien, and that Quintero reminds me lots of RENE with the bodyshots. People talk about how RENE is open for bodyshots, but Adrien was taking them like a motherfucker in that fight, and his body is still quite open.



Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> McKay said:
> 
> 
> > You not high on Broner then?
> ...


Saul has been more impressive to me than Adrien. Plus Adrien is lazy for a high level fighter.

I know you're not a fan of triangle theories and styles make fights, but Adrien failed to beat the shit out of an inferior version of Paulie wheres Cotto(e) and Hatton did it to a better one.

I like to use Cotto(e) and Ricky Hatton, especially Cotto(e), as measuring sticks for up and comers. If you're not as good as Ricky, then you probably aren't elite. If you're not around Cotto(e)'s level, you're likely more hype than substance.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> Check out Adrien vs Quintero soon. It's a short fight with only 8 rounds. They were both prospects with "0s", but Adrien has the amateur pedigree. I was half asleep while watching it late at night, but I gave 5 rounds to Quintero. My point is it was close enough even though Quintero was greatly inexperienced compared to Adrien, and that Quintero reminds me lots of RENE with the bodyshots. People talk about how RENE is open for bodyshots, but Adrien was taking them like a motherfucker in that fight, and his body is still quite open.
> 
> I know you're not a fan of triangle theories and styles make fights, but Adrien failed to beat the shit out of an inferior version of Paulie wheres Cotto(e) and Hatton did it to a better one.
> 
> I like to use Cotto(e) and Ricky Hatton, especially Cotto(e), as measuring sticks for up and comers. If you're not as good as Ricky, then you probably aren't elite. If you're not around Cotto(e)'s level, you're likely more hype than substance.


Well you can use triangle theory when certain stylistic elements translate. Hatton and Cotto both like to be aggressive, as does Broner, so it's not totally irrelevant. But maybe it does't take Hatton or Cotto level to beat Maidana.

I'll watch the Quintero fight. My only reservation is that I don't think Maidana's body shots will be able to out-do the work to the body and head Broner dishes out with more consistency and speed. But I will watch the Quintero fight, I saw it once but will pay attention to the body work.


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## Rooster (Jul 14, 2013)

One of the best fights to be made right now. Hyped for this.

Going with Marquez late-KO. I think Bradley is going to suffer for not having a really authoritative jab from Marquez's overhand rights and he's also open for that left uppercut. I think it'll be close and competitive for as long as it lasts but Bradley's going to take too much damage. But I wouldn't be surprised at a wide UD either way. Depends on their gameplans and what they bring on fightnight.


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## Rooster (Jul 14, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> Check out Adrien vs Quintero soon. It's a short fight with only 8 rounds. They were both prospects with "0s", but Adrien has the amateur pedigree. I was half asleep while watching it late at night, but I gave 5 rounds to Quintero. My point is it was close enough even though Quintero was greatly inexperienced compared to Adrien, and that Quintero reminds me lots of RENE with the bodyshots. People talk about how RENE is open for bodyshots, but Adrien was taking them like a motherfucker in that fight, and his body is still quite open.
> 
> Saul has been more impressive to me than Adrien. Plus Adrien is lazy for a high level fighter.
> 
> ...


Going by fights 3&1/2 years ago when he was a prospect and using triangle theories isn't a great way to predict fights. :rolleyes

Maidana has improved over time but it's not like he's Joe Frazier now. He's there to be hit and going to have a lot a trouble with Broner's speed. That said, if Broner fights stupid like against Paulie he's gonna to have a hard time. Can't just sit there cuz he thinks he's Floyd and let Maidana punch. Going with Broner UD on this one.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Well you can use triangle theory when certain stylistic elements translate. Hatton and Cotto both like to be aggressive, as does Broner, so it's not totally irrelevant. *But maybe it does't take Hatton or Cotto level to beat Maidana.*
> 
> I'll watch the Quintero fight. My only reservation is that I don't think Maidana's body shots will be able to out-do the work to the body and head Broner dishes out with more consistency and speed. But I will watch the Quintero fight, I saw it once but will pay attention to the body work.


yes, it doesn't. Amir did it by winning 6 or so rounds. Amir also put a beating Paulie, a better one, unlike Adrien.



Rooster said:


> *Going by fights 3&1/2 years ago when he was a prospect and using triangle theories isn't a great way to predict fights.* :rolleyes
> 
> Maidana has improved over time but it's not like he's Joe Frazier now. He's there to be hit and going to have a lot a trouble with Broner's speed. That said, if Broner fights stupid like against Paulie he's gonna to have a hard time. Can't just sit there cuz he thinks he's Floyd and let Maidana punch. Going with Broner UD on this one.





Bogotazo said:


> Well you can use triangle theory when certain stylistic elements translate. Hatton and Cotto both like to be aggressive, as does Broner, so it's not totally irrelevant.


It's been 3.5 years, but Adrien's level of opposition has been relatively soft. Dude was dumbfounded when Paulie blew the truth up in his face about his level of opposition as he stood there feeling crunchy.


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## Rooster (Jul 14, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> It's been 3.5 years, but Adrien's level of opposition has been relatively soft. Dude was dumbfounded when Paulie blew the truth up in his face about his level of opposition as he stood there feeling crunchy.


People improve after 3.5 years. That should be obvious. Analyzing fighters when they were prospects years ago is a fairly stupid way make predictions.

Broner wasn't dumbfounded. Just stupid. He clearly looked confident and thought he was bossing the fight. It was like he thought he would look all badass if he won without putting in much effort or something.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Rooster said:


> People improve after 3.5 years. That should be obvious. Analyzing fighters when they were prospects years ago is a fairly stupid way make predictions.


Not enough to get pass Rene given who they matched him up with to push him along the learning curve.



Rooster said:


> Broner wasn't dumbfounded. Just stupid. He clearly looked confident and thought he was bossing the fight. It was like he thought he would look all badass if he won without putting in much effort or something.


what the hell are you talking about? This encounter I'm talking about went down BEFORE they fought. This happened at some media event. Of course, Broner felt stupid. He just had his work exposed as not being as good as advertised.


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## Rooster (Jul 14, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> Not enough to get pass Rene given who they matched him up with to push him along the learning curve.
> 
> what the hell are you talking about? This encounter I'm talking about went down BEFORE they fought. This happened at some media event. Of course, Broner felt stupid. He just had his work exposed as not being as good as advertised.


Ah, you're talking about the press conference thing. I think the actual fight is more relevant. It felt like Broner fought stupid and definitely not to the best of his abilities. Broner's no ATG for sure, but neither is Maidana. Adrien has the style advantage here and enough physical attributes and skill to decision Maidana. I'd love it if Marcos KO'd him, though. Not a fan of second-rate Floyd.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> Been saying all along that Bradley would of beaten LM. :yep
> 
> Garcia impresses me more every time I see him. Do you think he's next for Mayweather?


Yeah I was saying the same thing. Bradley is too tough, too much heart and too much in shape to get stopped by almost anybody. And his movement and boxing brain would out hustle Matthysse to a decision victory. Some were making it even sound like Matthysse was better than Pacquiao :lol:

and I think Garcia will be next for Floyd. He's gained a lot of exposure last weekend. He was one of the most searched people on Google, Saturday and even on ESPN's FirstTake, Skip Bayless said he was impressed by Garcia and said he wouldn't mind seeing him vs Floyd next


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## ATrillionaire (Jun 11, 2013)

Bradley cruises to an unanimous decision


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

It's, as always, a very thought-provoking analysis, Bogo. I actually worry a bit after Bradley's mental health if he gets a bad one here. As a Bradley supporter through his career, I think he really went off after the Pac fight. I have no idea what possibly getting crushed could do to him now.


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## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

JMM is on steroids


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

I'm backing Tim. Only worry is if he's damaged goods after Ruslan or if he gets too eager to trade. Kinda like Holyfield in the respect when he boxes he does so beautifully but has too much pride and is too willing to abandon his skills in order to slug.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Boxed Ears said:


> It's, as always, a very thought-provoking analysis, Bogo. I actually worry a bit after Bradley's mental health if he gets a bad one here. As a Bradley supporter through his career, I think he really went off after the Pac fight. I have no idea what possibly getting crushed could do to him now.


Depends if he loses with honor or not. A KO would be devastating but even then I wouldn't count Tim out.



Side Step said:


> Sure he will


:yep:hey


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

:bump


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## bald_head_slick (May 23, 2013)

Why are you using arguably Bradley's WORST fight as a sole example of what he brings to the table? :huh


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bald_head_slick said:


> Why are you using arguably Bradley's WORST fight as a sole example of what he brings to the table? :huh


Firstly, because it's the most recent.

Second, I'm using the rounds that he boxed the best in to highlight the fact that even at his best, there are flaws built into Bradley's strengths. I can't think off the top of my head a performance in which Tim blended his use of the jab, combination punching, switching stances, and ambush aggression as well as he did in rounds 2 through 9.


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## bald_head_slick (May 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Firstly, because it's the most recent.
> 
> Second, I'm using the rounds that he boxed the best in to highlight the fact that even at his best, there are flaws built into Bradley's strengths. I can't think off the top of my head a performance in which Tim blended his use of the jab, combination punching, switching stances, and ambush aggression as well as he did in rounds 2 through 9.


It is his most recent, but any fan watching and even he himself said he was proving a point. Badly. :yep

Also, it is known that he was pretty out of it in that fight. Timbo's out skilled and gritted a lot of solid guys. That Prov fight was him at his absolute worse on a skill level.

Your points are legit, but a little unfair.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bald_head_slick said:


> It is his most recent, but any fan watching and even he himself said he was proving a point. Badly. :yep
> 
> Also, it is known that he was pretty out of it in that fight. Timbo's out skilled and gritted a lot of solid guys. That Prov fight was him at his absolute worse on a skill level.
> 
> Your points are legit, but a little unfair.


In the moments he got hurt, sure. But his skill is what won him the decision and allowed him to control that long stretch. Was Bradley's jab lazy because he was trying to prov a point? No. Were his punches wide because they somehow proved his point better? No. Did he drop his hands on purpose just for this fight? I don't think so.

I honestly can't think of a more skilled boxing performance from Bradley than rounds 3-9 of the Provodnikov fight. Just look at his best wins. He was an ambushing pit bull against Alexander (which had its moments against Provodnikov). He roughed up Peterson coming in behind a jab. He boxed and came forward against Pacquiao but wasn't too dynamic. I have to say I can't think of one. Maybe Abregu, but taking a look at highlights of that fight showed he was exhibiting the same strengths and the same weaknesses. It's not like I took the moments Bradley was out on his feet swinging or getting dropped to prove my points.


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## Relentless (Nov 24, 2012)

I'll be rooting for Marquez although a Bradley victory wont disappoint me either. Used to be a huge Bradley fan.. still am sometimes but those arm punch flurries he throws are juan diaz'esque and they're gonna get him countered with hard power shots from Marquez. I predict either Marquez stoppage.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Thought of this moment when Nacho said Bradley gets desperate when he misses:


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## evalistinho (Jun 3, 2013)

Bradley is too much of a cowboy to trouble a sharpshooter like Marquez. If JMM plays his cards right he might even stop Bradley.


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## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> In the moments he got hurt, sure. But his skill is what won him the decision and allowed him to control that long stretch. Was Bradley's jab lazy because he was trying to prov a point? No. Were his punches wide because they somehow proved his point better? No. Did he drop his hands on purpose just for this fight? I don't think so.
> 
> I honestly can't think of a more skilled boxing performance from Bradley than rounds 3-9 of the Provodnikov fight. Just look at his best wins. He was an ambushing pit bull against Alexander (which had its moments against Provodnikov). He roughed up Peterson coming in behind a jab. He boxed and came forward against Pacquiao but wasn't too dynamic. I have to say I can't think of one. Maybe Abregu, but taking a look at highlights of that fight showed he was exhibiting the same strengths and the same weaknesses. It's not like I took the moments Bradley was out on his feet swinging or getting dropped to prove my points.


Go rewatch the Peterson fight. He was oin his back foot after round 3 and Lamont landed nothing of significance after that. Way better than the Prov fight.


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## Yungboy (Jun 5, 2013)

I don't think Tim is damaged goods, so if Juan beats hopefully that won't be an excuse but I think Bradley wins a UD. I don't think Marquez will stop him.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Yungboy said:


> I don't think Tim is damaged goods, so if Juan beats hopefully that won't be an excuse but I think Bradley wins a UD. *I don't think Marquez will stop him.*


I do


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Thought of this moment when Nacho said Bradley gets desperate when he misses:


That certainly was interesting. I said somewhere that Bradley lets his athleticism/speed get the better of him and leaves him defensively liable a lot of the time. I think Marquez pieces him up more often than not, I'm growing surer of it by the day.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Yungboy said:


> I don't think Tim is damaged goods, so if Juan beats hopefully that won't be an excuse but I think Bradley wins a UD. I don't think Marquez will stop him.


Thank you. I don't want to hear excuses he was damaged when fighters have come back from far worse, he looks sharp as hell in training, and if anything his discipline and attention to his corner will be far greater than if he didn't go through the moments of the Provodnikov fight.



SouthPaw said:


> Go rewatch the Peterson fight. He was oin his back foot after round 3 and Lamont landed nothing of significance after that. Way better than the Prov fight.







The latter half of the Peterson fight isn't a bad example but they were still inside quite often, and also Peterson didn't give the same sense of urgency, Bradley was able to pick his spots easily, whereas with Provodnikov he was forced to improvise and move and up his output and use his jab a lot more. Changing directions after throwing was a strong point against Peterson and he showed that against Provodnikov as well. In any case, he show the same tendencies.



turbotime said:


> That certainly was interesting. I said somewhere that Bradley lets his athleticism/speed get the better of him and leaves him defensively liable a lot of the time. I think Marquez pieces him up more often than not, I'm growing surer of it by the day.


Agreed.


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## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

Tim was being active for the sake of being active against Prov. Prov was plodding forward and he could have stayed on his backfoot.

Remember also that the ring for the Peterson fight is tiny.


----------



## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) (Jun 3, 2013)

Great analysis as always

For me I think this fight is great for boxing, young vs old and two class acts and great athletes and fighters for the sport and one of the few ppvs in recent memory that is a pretty tough fight to pick. I mean since day one I've seen this as pretty 50/50

As the fight approaches I'd say I favor Marquez but really wouldnt be stunned if he were to lose. I favor Marquez because he pretty much is superior in all categories: power, experience, counter punching, jab, and probably just more of an X factor

I love Bradley he is great for the sport and is a jack of all trades master of none type of guy. He has a big heart and a solid gas tank but he lacks in other areas. I dont think he is a light hitter but he certainly isnt a KO artist, he is quick but not lightening quick, he has a good chin but has been hurt in several fights

I gave JMM the jab advantage but Bradleys jab can compete as it is quick and snappy and versatile, combination punching is a close area of comparison as both have good punch variation to the head and body but since JMM has more power he probably has the combination punching edge

On a sidenote if Bradley is ever as hurt as he was vs Provodnikov JMM will no doubt finish him, Juan is one of the best finishers in boxing and has racked up plenty of KO's in recent memory and each guy he has hurt bad lately he has gotten rid of in great fashion

that said the recent KO has propelled Juan to a massive mythic level. How much does he really have left. I mean you could argue that he looked great only because Manny was tailor made in ways and that he understood him in and out. At the same time vs guys not named Manny he was down and hurt bad vs Katsidis and had moments of worry, and was wobbled and troubled at times but Diaz and was outclassed by Mayweather. Yes he won 2 of those fights by brutal stoppages and Bradley is no Mayweather but we have to try and measure what JMM has left

to be honest vs Manny in the last fight it was the first time I ever had him behind in rounds vs Manny. Outside the knockdown Manny was winning that fight and until getting bombed at the end of the 6th which he was winning he was behind and I thought he looked the worst he had all series til the KO. Now maybe thats because his plan was to sacrifice defense and get in harms way more to go for the KO he was looking for so maybe my point is moot but Marquez might not be in as great of form as we think

All in all I think its safe to say Bradley will always be a slight underdog vs the cream of the p4p crop due to his lack of power and some of the controversy but the plain fact of the matter is he is a well trained well conditioned guy who just knows how to fight and can adapt and adjust and survive with what he has been given to work with

60-40 in favor of JMM


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## Windmiller (Jun 6, 2013)

Bradley gonna hit Juan with one of these


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) said:


> Great analysis as always
> 
> For me I think this fight is great for boxing, young vs old and two class acts and great athletes and fighters for the sport and one of the few ppvs in recent memory that is a pretty tough fight to pick. I mean since day one I've seen this as pretty 50/50
> 
> ...


Interesting, I never thought of JMM's jab, but when he uses it it's a great weapon, he throws it stiff and times it well. I can't think of an opponent who tried to jab with Bradley, I wonder if that might work throwing him off a bit. I assumed off the bat Bradley's jab would be his main tool, it's very quick, but he might forego it if he gets timed, either with a return jab or that overhand right he's so susceptible to.



KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) said:


> On a sidenote if Bradley is ever as hurt as he was vs Provodnikov JMM will no doubt finish him, Juan is one of the best finishers in boxing and has racked up plenty of KO's in recent memory and each guy he has hurt bad lately he has gotten rid of in great fashion
> 
> that said the recent KO has propelled Juan to a massive mythic level. How much does he really have left. I mean you could argue that he looked great only because Manny was tailor made in ways and that he understood him in and out. At the same time vs guys not named Manny he was down and hurt bad vs Katsidis and had moments of worry, and was wobbled and troubled at times but Diaz and was outclassed by Mayweather. Yes he won 2 of those fights by brutal stoppages and Bradley is no Mayweather but we have to try and measure what JMM has left
> 
> ...


The reason I included the Katsidis Diaz moments is to show that two superior and more dangerous aggressors weren't able to get to JMM. Theoretically Bradley can switch modes at the perfect times to escape adjustment and nullification from JMM, but in the category of pressure, he's not bringing anything JMM hasn't been able to overcome before.

In terms of being behind on points againt Manny, JMM offered less movement trying to sit down on his punches and Manny really looked sharp. JMM is focusing on speed for this camp, not a dramatic KO.



Windmiller said:


> Bradley gonna hit Juan with one of these


Good thing his head movement is far better than Provodnikov's. I've never seen JMM get hit with an uppercut he didn't answer with a better one already planned.


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## KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) (Jun 3, 2013)

Ive always seen JMM's jab as a great weapon in his big fights, and I wouldnt advise Bradley to take him to war, back him up and get physical yes but not sell out like Diaz and Katsidis and go balls to the walls

maybe a good fight to study is Barrera who could box and brawl


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

KO KIDD (ESB EX-Patriot) said:


> Ive always seen JMM's jab as a great weapon in his big fights, and I wouldnt advise Bradley to take him to war, back him up and get physical yes but not sell out like Diaz and Katsidis and go balls to the walls
> 
> maybe a good fight to study is Barrera who could box and brawl


Oh shit, didn't think of that, great call!

Gonna watch it tonight I think.


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## MGS (Jun 14, 2013)

great post man.

DBZ break downs are still the best though :yep


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MGS said:


> great post man.
> 
> DBZ break downs are still the best though :yep


Oh man those were fun.



Bogotazo said:


>


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

Ya I dont think bradley is good or crafty enough to outbox Marquez for 12 rounds. And if he makes it a dogfight, Marquez has the advantage there too. Add to that Bradley just doesn't have any power to hurt Marquez either. Only question mark is Marquez age, and that's bradley's biggest benefit coming in. Still, like with Pacquiao there's a difference of class here. 

Excellent post btw.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Oh shit, didn't think of that, great call!
> 
> Gonna watch it tonight I think.


Re-watching this fight confirms my confidence in Marquez's abilities to be accurate in between Bradley's assaults, particularly to the body. Barrera isn't at his career-best in terms of quickness, but his intelligence in exchanges is immense and JMM is constantly able to get the better of him bobbing and weaving as he throws, his instincts are surreal. Barrera's jab also didn't trouble JMM the way I remembered. Marquez is able to land the left hand over the left shoulder time and time again, hard. I doubt Bradley has tightened his jab up at this stage to that extent. I was also pleased to see JMM use a feint + lead left over the top, great shot for someone who drops their right as often as Tim does.


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## 941jeremy (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm pretty sure this is another great breakdown Bogo. Unfortunately my computer is having a hard time displaying the page, I guess too many gifs. Sucks as I look forward to your breakdowns.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

941jeremy said:


> I'm pretty sure this is another great breakdown Bogo. Unfortunately my computer is having a hard time displaying the page, I guess too many gifs. Sucks as I look forward to your breakdowns.


Technology :verysad

Try leaving the opening post open all day on your computer, it will load eventually, lol.


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## ATrillionaire (Jun 11, 2013)

Almost positive Bradley beats Marquez, just as I was positive Floyd would stand in front of Canelo for large chunks of the fight and Danny would beat Lucas.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

ATrillionaire said:


> Almost positive Bradley beats Marquez, just as I was positive Floyd was stand in front of Canelo for large chunks of the fight and Danny would beat Lucas.


So what exactly in the opening post do you disagree with?


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## ATrillionaire (Jun 11, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> So what exactly in the opening post do you disagree with?


*In short, Marquez will out-craft him on the inside, out-time him at mid-range, and out-smart him on the outside, as his offensive and defensive strengths correlate directly with Bradley's stylistic weaknesses.*


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

ATrillionaire said:


> *In short, Marquez will out-craft him on the inside, out-time him at mid-range, and out-smart him on the outside, as his offensive and defensive strengths correlate directly with Bradley's stylistic weaknesses.*


That's the conclusion. I laid out a whole series of reasons why, so that people could examine and react.


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## ATrillionaire (Jun 11, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That's the conclusion. I laid out a whole series of reasons why, so that people could examine and react.


No disrepect. All I can see is my vision of what will happen. Your breakdown was very informative.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

ATrillionaire said:


> No disrepect. All I can see is my vision of what will happen. Your breakdown was very informative.


Word :thumbsup

If you get around to comparing your vision with what I put forth feel free to post it.


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## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

The breakdown doesn't really consider the idea that Marquez simply isn't the same fighter he was when he fought the likes of Diaz and Katsidis. He is beginning to adapt his style in accordance to his age. People tend to forget that his speed and coordination was lacking in the last Pacquiao fight. He didn't have the same fluidity and his reflexes weren't as good. That's mainly down to two factors, age and style. Certain sides of his game had to regress in order for others to progress. He trained to become a single shot power puncher and although Nacho persists they are going for speed in this fight, it's probably too late for that. The increase in muscle mass came at a result of rigorous strength and conditioning training, he's not built how he used to be, his body isn't designed for 8/9 punch combinations anymore. At his age, it's going to be difficult to get that back.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

TFG said:


> The breakdown doesn't really consider the idea that Marquez simply isn't the same fighter he was when he fought the likes of Diaz and Katsidis. He is beginning to adapt his style in accordance to his age. People tend to forget that his speed and coordination was lacking in the last Pacquiao fight. He didn't have the same fluidity and his reflexes weren't as good. That's mainly down to two factors, age and style. Certain sides of his game had to regress in order for others to progress. He trained to become a single shot power puncher and although Nacho persists they are going for speed in this fight, it's probably too late for that. The increase in muscle mass came at a result of rigorous strength and conditioning training, he's not built how he used to be, his body isn't designed for 8/9 punch combinations anymore. At his age, it's going to be difficult to get that back.


I'd say the JMM from the third Pacquiao fight was as quick as he's looked at lightweight, roughly. I think he bulked for Pacquiao 4 looking to sit down on his punches and do damage. For this fight, it's all about fluidity and speed. I think that they've focused their efforts there and it will show. So yes, I am operating out of the assumption that he will be quick and agile enough to be mobile, move his waist, and compliment the timing of his punches. I don't think his form for Pacquiao is some sort of irreversible transformation.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

That yoga that he's doing will help a lot with his coordination and fluidity :yep I know from experience


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

BBall do me a favor and mail me one of your abs. Just one. That way I can make a mold and press it onto my stomach, so whether I'm fit or not, it'l show.

No 'mo.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

@SJS20 come and state your case you traitor. Find whatever fault you may in my post.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> BBall do me a favor and mail me one of your abs. Just one. That way I can make a mold and press it onto my stomach, so whether I'm fit or not, it'l show.
> 
> No 'mo.


:lol: I'll see what I can do


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## TFG (Jul 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I'd say the JMM from the third Pacquiao fight was as quick as he's looked at lightweight, roughly. I think he bulked for Pacquiao 4 looking to sit down on his punches and do damage. For this fight, it's all about fluidity and speed. I think that they've focused their efforts there and it will show. So yes, I am operating out of the assumption that he will be quick and agile enough to be mobile, move his waist, and compliment the timing of his punches. I don't think his form for Pacquiao is some sort of irreversible transformation.


That's a lot easier said than done, especially since he looks to be keeping all of that new muscle mass, and the small factor of him being 40 years old. He showed signs of being a lesser fighter in his last fight, despite the way it ended. A lot of that can probably be attributed to the new strategy/form but the slowing reflexes and fluidity is worrying. I think you could see Marquez looking old and slow in this fight. You can't keep reshaping and interchanging your form and physical attributes at that age, it won't work, I think he is going to struggle to keep hold of that speed.

I think Bradley beats him regardless of any deterioration, but it could end up being a big factor that a lot of people are overlooking.


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## Yungboy (Jun 5, 2013)

Damn I can't order the PPV. I'm literally flat out broke, and been like this for two weeks now. I couldn't even buy GTA V yet. I owe my mom money.

Streams suck! What should I do? Only 2 days away, for one of the biggest fights of the year. I need to find another job.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Yungboy said:


> Damn I can't order the PPV. I'm literally flat out broke, and been like this for two weeks now. I couldn't even buy GTA V yet. I owe my mom money.
> 
> Streams suck! What should I do? Only 2 days away, for one of the biggest fights of the year. I need to find another job.


You live in America, sell blood and Semen.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> @SJS20 come and state your case you traitor. Find whatever fault you may in my post.


You're assuming that we'll see a close to peak Marquez. I don't think we will.

If Bradley doesn't try to load up on his shots then he can win this.

You'll have to excuse me, in the past 36 hours I've had 45 minutes sleep, and that time has involved exams and Boxing matey. Saturday I'll give a full response.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

TFG said:


> That's a lot easier said than done, especially since he looks to be keeping all of that new muscle mass, and the small factor of him being 40 years old. He showed signs of being a lesser fighter in his last fight, despite the way it ended. A lot of that can probably be attributed to the new strategy/form but the slowing reflexes and fluidity is worrying. I think you could see Marquez looking old and slow in this fight. You can't keep reshaping and interchanging your form and physical attributes at that age, it won't work, I think he is going to struggle to keep hold of that speed.
> 
> I think Bradley beats him regardless of any deterioration, but it could end up being a big factor that a lot of people are overlooking.


I understand your concerns. Nothing is guaranteed in terms of physicality for a fighter so old and war-torn.

So barring deterioration, what about the analysis do you think is off? I focused on Bradley's strengths to show that even then, he has built-in weaknesses.


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## Yungboy (Jun 5, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> You live in America, sell blood and Semen.


 I don't know if I want to do that. I think I could come up with the money, but I still owe people. Not a lot people where I am care for the fight much to help, my mother family are casuals, my dad's family love boxing but they live nowhere I I live.

I don't know if I'm suppose to be asking for it but if any of y'all can, pm me some suggestions for some good streams just in case because I can't miss this.


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## PBFred (Jun 4, 2013)

Good read, Bogo.

I'm starting to think Joel Diaz will be a factor in this fight due to the admitted level of concern with Bradley's health after the Provo fight. No way in hell does he allow Tim to absorb any type of punishment Saturday.


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## Boxing Fanatic (Jun 5, 2013)

juan is so smart. timmey gets reckless and u wait for it to happen. if he boxes juan, it could get close on the scorecards and he could pull off an upset.


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## Floyd_g.o.a.t (Jun 11, 2013)

Nice breakdown.

But Bradley wins.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PBFred said:


> Good read, Bogo.
> 
> I'm starting to think Joel Diaz will be a factor in this fight due to the admitted level of concern with Bradley's health after the Provo fight. No way in hell does he allow Tim to absorb any type of punishment Saturday.


Thanks!

I'm curious about that. Part of me thinks he'll be real cautious and won't hesitate to throw the towel, another part of me thinks they know this might be his last big shot at a great win. Man I think he's gonna get hurt but pull through it. JMM is a great finisher but Bradley is a good survivor in general and not a bad spoiler.



Floyd_g.o.a.t said:


> Nice breakdown.
> 
> But Bradley wins.


Cool, care to lay out what you think is incorrect about the breakdown?


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## randomwalk (Jul 13, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Cool, care to lay out what you think is incorrect about the breakdown?


One thing to take with a grain of salt is that Katsidis and Diaz are not as fast as Bradley. If Bradley forces Marquez to lead he will have a decided advantage ... see the Mayweather fight. I think that is where Bradley's advantage lies. Many of your examples had Bradley leading ... either against the ropes or in the center of the ring. In my opinion, Marquez doesn't do as well when coming forward. I think this dynamic will decide the fight.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

randomwalk said:


> One thing to take with a grain of salt is that Katsidis and Diaz are not as fast as Bradley. If Bradley forces Marquez to lead he will have a decided advantage ... see the Mayweather fight. I think that is where Bradley's advantage lies. Many of your examples had Bradley leading ... either against the ropes or in the center of the ring. In my opinion, Marquez doesn't do as well when coming forward. I think this dynamic will decide the fight.


Katsidis and Diaz are both better pressure fighters IMO but you're right in that neither compares to Bradley boxing and making an opponent lead.

But I believe I did address that in the second half.



Bogotazo said:


> *Now, on the outside, many expect Bradley to post the most problems there, using his quick jab, footwork, and upper body movement, partially re-creating the problems that Norwood, John, and Mayweather all presented him with as they made him lead. The issue with Bradley being able to work his game-plan consistently is that he drops his hands so often while shooting from the outside, that he is vulnerable to counters from a far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## randomwalk (Jul 13, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Katsidis and Diaz are both better pressure fighters IMO but you're right in that neither compares to Bradley boxing and making an opponent lead.
> 
> But I believe I did address that in the second half.


I'll just say that I don't think Marquez will take the same chances that Ruslan did. Diaz was coming forward in the first fight and Mayweather was essentially stationary when Marquez landed those overhand rights. Diaz did not have the speed or movement to counter Marquez in the 2nd fight and got tagged with a lot of those lead rights. I definitely think that punch can do damage to Bradley, but I think it will depend on the dynamics of the fight. Bradley needs to box on the outside and give Marquez movement.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

I do believe that Bradley will have a better chance if he boxes JMM, but that's it..just a better chance, NOT an automatic win.

And bringing up the Mayweather fight here is wrong...Bradley is NOT Mayweather...he is nowhere near as skilled, intelligent, disciplined, and despite being very good athletically, his athleticism is still not as great as Floyds...and not to forget that ridiculous reach advantage Floyd had over Marquez.

So if Timmy is really planning on using the Floyd formula this Saturday...he will be in for a rude awakening.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

randomwalk said:


> I'll just say that I don't think Marquez will take the same chances that Ruslan did. Diaz was coming forward in the first fight and Mayweather was essentially stationary when Marquez landed those overhand rights. Diaz did not have the speed or movement to counter Marquez in the 2nd fight and got tagged with a lot of those lead rights. I definitely think that punch can do damage to Bradley, but I think it will depend on the dynamics of the fight. Bradley needs to box on the outside and give Marquez movement.


I think JMM's going to replicate some of what Ruslan did but "with intelligence". But I agree, using angles to a greater extent than Floyd and Diaz did boxing would benefit him. The Pac faith simply gives me a lack of faith in his ability to put all the plans together. He has the tools, just not the fluidity IMO. But Bradley is coming in ready and is a threat should JMM slip one bit.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Bradley's best chance is to make it a wrestling match, not a boxing match. He's too open to counters when he jabs, as Bogo pointed out, and also tends to get very wide with his punches when given distance.

And try going to war in a phone booth and Marquez will pick him apart with his sharper, more accurate punches.

Timmeh had best come in with a gameplan centered around smothering JMM and trying to wear the 40yr old down. Smothering worked quite well for him back at 140, but he seems to be a guy that is no longer aware of his limitations.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Yungboy said:


> I don't know if I want to do that. I think I could come up with the money, but I still owe people. Not a lot people where I am care for the fight much to help, my mother family are casuals, my dad's family love boxing but they live nowhere I I live.
> 
> I don't know if I'm suppose to be asking for it but if any of y'all can, pm me some suggestions for some good streams just in case because I can't miss this.


add @bballchump11 to your skype. he'll tell you all you need to know about watching fights


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> Bradley's best chance is to make it a wrestling match, not a boxing match. He's too open to counters when he jabs, as Bogo pointed out, and also tends to get very wide with his punches when given distance.
> 
> And try going to war in a phone booth and Marquez will pick him apart with his sharper, more accurate punches.
> 
> Timmeh had best come in with a gameplan centered around smothering JMM and trying to wear the 40yr old down. Smothering worked quite well for him back at 140, but he seems to be a guy that is no longer aware of his limitations.


Interesting, you mean like a Ward-esque smother-throw-smother-move type of gameplan? Interesting, because JMM is a fighter who never clinches. He's great in the phone booth but it would be interesting to see if he knows how to react to a fighter holding and hitting and mauling him. If he's not comfortable in a clinch he usually just pivots out to change the angle and resumes punching, or holds to break.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> add @bballchump11 to your skype. he'll tell you all you need to know about watching fights


:yep


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## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

I think Bradley has this, he is the bigger guy, he has the better chin IMO and quicker hands and feet, he is good all round. People seem to overlook the fact that Marquez Isn't a fully fledged Welterweight, his muscle doesn't change my mind on that, I think he should haven ended his career at 140, he was never a big lightweight even.


Im saying Bradley UD, he won't play into the aggressive role that Marquez thrives on, he will avoid the exchanges and win on points.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Interesting, you mean like a Ward-esque smother-throw-smother-move type of gameplan? Interesting, because JMM is a fighter who never clinches. He's great in the phone booth but it would be interesting to see if he knows how to react to a fighter holding and hitting and mauling him. If he's not comfortable in a clinch he usually just pivots out to change the angle and resumes punching, or holds to break.


This is exactly what I was talking about and it is the only way I see Bradley winning.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

ChampionsForever said:


> I think Bradley has this, he is the bigger guy, he has the better chin IMO and quicker hands and feet, he is good all round. People seem to overlook the fact that Marquez Isn't a fully fledged Welterweight, his muscle doesn't change my mind on that, I think he should haven ended his career at 140, he was never a big lightweight even.
> 
> Im saying Bradley UD, he won't play into the aggressive role that Marquez thrives on, he will avoid the exchanges and win on points.


So what about the second half of the breakdown, where I talk about Bradley's low jab on the outside and susceptibility to bait-and-counter traps, do you think is incorrect?


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## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> So what about the second half of the breakdown, where I talk about Bradley's low jab on the outside and susceptibility to bait-and-counter traps, do you think is incorrect?


You clearly have analysed this fight more than me and know your stuff, I'm just disagreeing with you on the winner, as stated before I think you can over analyse a fight and a fighters game plan can throw alot of presumptions off.

Ive just always thought ever since this fight was made that Bradley takes this, if I'm wrong ill hold my hands up, I'm no Nostradamus.


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## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm sure Bradley will come into the ring at 158+


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> I'm sure Bradley will come into the ring at 158+


He was at 159 against Provodnikov and attributed it to poor conditioning.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> This is exactly what I was talking about and it is the only way I see Bradley winning.


Word, I can see that being the most frustrating and tiring type of fight for an old fighter who's preference is to have his hands free. What's his best performance using those tactics in your opinion?


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Word, I can see that being the most frustrating and tiring type of fight for an old fighter who's preference is to have his hands free. What's his best performance using those tactics in your opinion?


He mauled the shit out of Peterson and pretty much shut him out. To be fair, though, he did do his share of "boxing" in that match as well. He's going to have to ugly it up even more to keep JMM from lighting him up.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> He mauled the shit out of Peterson and pretty much shut him out. To be fair, though, he did do his share of "boxing" in that match as well. He's going to have to ugly it up even more to keep JMM from lighting him up.


Yeah, who's the ref again? Bayless? I feel like he'd work against him. Bradley would need a Smoger type.


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## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> He was at 159 against Provodnikov and attributed it to poor conditioning.


I don't quite believe Bradley there, I think using his weight like that is the best way for him to campaign at 147, which isn't saying much since he hasn't looked too hot since Pac


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

FloydPatterson said:


> I don't quite believe Bradley there, I think using his weight like that is the best way for him to campaign at 147, which isn't saying much since he hasn't looked too hot since Pac


I guess it depends on who he's fighting. To me, 155-160 is a bit too high for Bradley. He tends to put on solid bulk, which generally works against a fighter. He was alot leaner, sleeker, and more agile at 140, at least from what I've seen thus far. He's looking like a mini bodybuilder now.

He already has the strength. He doesn't need extra muscles that actually counteract his strength advantage.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah, who's the ref again? Bayless? I feel like he'd work against him. Bradley would need a Smoger type.


Whomever the ref is, it doesn't really matter. After that Klitscho debacle, HBO will surely send the memo not to allow another clinch-fest, especially on a PPV headline.

I still think that Bradley has something to prove, anyway. His own pride will be his undoing.


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## Floyd_g.o.a.t (Jun 11, 2013)

Nothing wrong with the breakdown, I personally feel stylistically Bradley is a bad match for JMM. I'm too tired to go into it atm, let's just enjoy the fight tomorrow.

Bradley by decision.


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## Kurushi (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks for the breakdown Bogo. It's always appreciated. I'm not going to disagree with the prediction. Personally my head is going with Marquez and my heart is going with Bradley (basically a pretentious way of sitting on the fence). I want to ask a question though.

When looking at this fight I find myself wanting to exclude Provodnikov from Bradley's resume and Pacquaio from Marquez's. This is because Prov and Pac seem to be exceptional fights in Tim and Juan's careers. That is to say they dilute the average perception of how Tim and Juan perform. Prov isn't a typical Bradley fight. Pacquiao isn't a typical Marquez fight.

Unless I missed something in your breakdown, I notice that you've excluded Pac from your Marquez analysis but you overwhelmingly focus on Provodnikov for your Bradley analysis. For Marquez you reference Katsidis, Diaz and Casamayor in detail and you glancingly reference Norwood, John, and Mayweather. 

The meat of your breakdown, for me, is when you talk about Marquez's ability to capitalise on his openings. This is largely because you reference someone other than Provodnikov as a challenge for Bradley (i.e. Pac). I'm reading your post and I'm not sure if your observations of Bradley are applying to his general performance or specifically to the Provodnikov fight.

Are you at risk here of focusing too much on one of Bradley's fights (and an unusual one at that) in determining the outcome of this fight or did you have other examples of Bradley's fights in mind when you wrote this for which animated gifs weren't provided?


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

ChampionsForever said:


> *I think Bradley has this, he is the bigger guy, he has the better chin IMO and quicker hands and feet*, he is good all round. People seem to overlook the fact that Marquez Isn't a fully fledged Welterweight, his muscle doesn't change my mind on that, I think he should haven ended his career at 140, he was never a big lightweight even.
> 
> Im saying Bradley UD, he won't play into the aggressive role that Marquez thrives on, he will avoid the exchanges and win on points.


emmanuel had those qualities, but it didn't stop him from getting beat up three timez by JUAN:conf


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Kurushi said:


> Thanks for the breakdown Bogo. It's always appreciated. I'm not going to disagree with the prediction. Personally my head is going with Marquez and my heart is going with Bradley (basically a pretentious way of sitting on the fence). I want to ask a question though.
> 
> When looking at this fight I find myself wanting to exclude Provodnikov from Bradley's resume and Pacquaio from Marquez's. This is because Prov and Pac seem to be exceptional fights in Tim and Juan's careers. That is to say they dilute the average perception of how Tim and Juan perform. Prov isn't a typical Bradley fight. Pacquiao isn't a typical Marquez fight.
> 
> ...


This is a fair critique.

The reason I chose the Provodnikov fight is because rounds 3 to 10 is the best displays of boxing Bradley has ever seen from my perspective. People mention Peterson, but he wasn't as active and reliant on his jab as I'd expect him to be against Marquez. Against Provodnikov he was moving laterally, throwing combinations off the jab, switching stances, throwing multiple consecutive jabs, mixing in his movement with aggression, etc. He racked up those points boxing with more creativity than I'd ever seen. My whole argument is based around the theory that even at his best and most advantageous range, Bradley has built-in flaws. I did't pick the moments Provodnikov came at him and rocked him while Bradley was needlessly trading, I picked the rounds in which Bradley did the best, and still showed vulnerabilities.

Was Bradley bringing back his jab low because of his willingness to trade? No, it's simply a habit. Was he throwing wide instead of tight on the inside for that reason? No, that's a consistent habit. I could post images of him wailing away on Alexander chin in the air and slapping against the ropes but it wouldn't have the same relevance I feel (plus I didn't want to burden poor Tezel with every fight I could think of.)

Floyd presents challenges with his range, size, and IQ that Bradley doesn't. Floyd's main tool was his (much longer) jab, and he brings his jab back low on purpose because he angles his body and leans back behind the shoulder. Bradley operates mostly out of a conventional guard and no matter which he's using, his jab doesn't come back quick enough to protect his chin. Chris John and Norwood were fighters with different tools also, and it was a different Marquez. Since then Marquez has innovated his ability to bait traps and come forward (hence the Casamayor and Diaz 2 examples).

So as I said, I looked at Bradley's most responsible "boxing" rounds and identified technical flaws at any range which were built into his strengths that matched up perfectly with JMM's skill set. Bradley's wideness when pressing VS JMM's waist movement and counter punching on the ropes. Bradley's sometimes sloppy combination punching VS Marquez's bait-and-counter traps. Bradley's low left jab VS Marquez's deadly overhand right (which landed every round for Provodnikov even when Bradley was retreating behind it.)


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## Floyd_g.o.a.t (Jun 11, 2013)

A lot of people won't agree with me but I've always felt this and that's that Bradley is one of the better fighters of this generation. Very underrated by some, hopefully not by tonight though.


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## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> emmanuel had those qualities, but it didn't stop him from getting beat up three timez by JUAN:conf


 2-2 if you ask me, Manny 1 & 2 Juan 3 & 4, but we both know Pac fights nothing like Bradley. Im just hoping we don't get a shit fight here, Marquez is a legend and Bradley is a top fighter who could be the first (on paper) to beat both Pac and Marquez, two of the 00s all time greats.


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## Floyd_g.o.a.t (Jun 11, 2013)

I rarely get it wrong Boga :hey


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## Executioner (Jun 4, 2013)

like i said before nice analysis but you looked to much into the provo fight where bradley fought out of his gameplan


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I saw Marquez win 1,4,5,6,8,10,11. If anyone has a round by round card to contradict that then go ahead on post it. I saw Marquez win landing the higher quality punches in a majority of rounds.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

The great thing about boxing is that often even the best analysis and prediction can be proven wrong in the ring. You've gotten a lot more right than wrong and take the time to put your work out there weeks in advance of the fight. No need to hang your head.


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## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

Did post in this thread because I didn't want to waste my time reading straight bullshit.
Tim made believers of you all though, didn't he?
Probably didn't your asses still salty and Tim still winning.


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## Oli (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I saw Marquez win 1,4,5,6,8,10,11. If anyone has a round by round card to contradict that then go ahead on post it. I saw Marquez win landing the higher quality punches in a majority of rounds.


Then your a terrible judge . Up there with CJ Ross.


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## PrinceN (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I saw Marquez win 1,4,5,6,8,10,11.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Oli said:


> Then your a terrible judge . Up there with CJ Ross.


If you have a different scorecard post it and contest mine. I payed close attention round to round to who was landing the more quality punches.



Vic said:


> You are not crazy at all......In here we had a commentator that is a professional boxing judge and he had it for Juan as well...can´t remember his scorecard exactly though.


Yeah? Would be interested to see that.



Sweethome_Bama said:


> 12 - 0 is more legit than your 7-5 Marquez card


Never. You see only what you want to see as always no matter how absurd.



guest said:


> marquez landed one or two hard shots in each round but that wasnt close to enough to win him more than 4 rounds


If you have a different card, post it and contest mine. Sitting back and looking at the fight, Bradley looked better over the course of the fight, but fights are scored round to round and JMM landed the higher quality punches more consistently.



Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> this caught me by surprise too. They sided with him for this match even though he got a gift against their princess emmanuel, who they dickride the hell out of


I thought it was clear from the outset they were out to compliment Bradley.


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## Boxing Fanatic (Jun 5, 2013)

he couldnt catch timmey all nite. bradley broke juans ankles with that foot work of his. too fast, too slick, and too black


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah? Would be interested to see that.


His name is Daniel Fucs, he works for the channel SPORTV, and they showed the fight and he scored it for Juan...but like I said, I can´t remember his scorecard.


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## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I saw Marquez win 1,4,5,6,8,10,11. If anyone has a round by round card to contradict that then go ahead on post it. I saw Marquez win landing the higher quality punches in a majority of rounds.


You're a smart guy and I respect your opinion regarding things boxing but JMM didn't win this fight.


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## KLion22 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I saw Marquez win 1,4,5,6,8,10,11. If anyone has a round by round card to contradict that then go ahead on post it. I saw Marquez win landing the higher quality punches in a majority of rounds.


Come on man. Give it up. You were wrong. Admit it. Like I said. You only focused on Tim's negatives and ignored Juan's negatives. You were wrong. Take your lumps like a real man instead of pulling some bullshit scorecard.


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## artful (May 10, 2013)

Reppin501 said:


> You're a smart guy and I respect your opinion regarding things boxing but JMM didn't win this fight.


He did.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)




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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PrinceN said:


>


Post your scorecard and critique, otherwise don't comment. I'm sure plenty people sat back, watched the fight, didn't keep score, and just got the "sense" Bradley dominated the fight. Not how boxing is scored.



KLion22 said:


> Come on man. Give it up. You were wrong. Admit it. Like I said. You only focused on Tim's negatives and ignored Juan's negatives. You were wrong. Take your lumps like a real man instead of pulling some bullshit scorecard.


1,4,5,6,8,10,11. Watching as closely as I could. I give Bradley lots of credit for fighting as well as he did but that is the fight I saw. The harder punches in 7 rounds. I'm not going to pretend I didn't see that to placate Bradley fans impressed with his performance.



Reppin501 said:


> You're a smart guy and I respect your opinion regarding things boxing but JMM didn't win this fight.


Which rounds do you dispute? Did you keep a score?



Vic said:


> His name is Daniel Fucs, he works for the channel SPORTV, and they showed the fight and he scored it for Juan...but like I said, I can´t remember his scorecard.


Word.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


>


stylin off my vid? :nono


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## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

GUys. Remember Bogo is a JMM fan, and that affects his scoring where he gave Marquez very close rounds(which is perfectly OK) I had it 8-4 Bradley...maybe 7-5. He was simply too active and Marquez' shots were too far in between to give him those close rounds where Timmy was working.


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## KLion22 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogo, if you really thought Jmm won, i'll let you do your thang. I'm done.


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## Rexrapper 1 (Jun 4, 2013)

The fight went pretty much how I thought it would go. I don't see how Marquez won even being in a crowd filled with screaming Mexicans. I would have to watch the replay to give a RBR.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I can say that with my eyes glued to the screen, fully aware of how well Bradley was poised, Marquez won the 7 rounds I posted. 

Bradley was more active and his jab limited JMM's output and he exceeded my expectations, but he fell short with it often and JMM landed many hard punches that went completely disregarded by the commentators.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

7-5 Bradley and i bet on JMM. It pissed me off that JMM was trying to counter so freaking much. He didn't put his foot on the gas pedal until the 9th.


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## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

1. 9-10 m
2. 10-9 b
3. 9-10 m
4. 10-9 b
5. 10-9 b
6. 10-9 b
7. 10-9 b
8. 10-9 b
9. 9-10 m
10.10-9 b
11. 10-9 b
12. 9-10 m

116-112 in favor of Bradley


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## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

There's no way Marquez won this fight. The only generous scoring you can have would be a draw, but even that's a bit too much. I thought Bradley did enough to edged him in more rounds and won the fight. I had it 8-4, and i wouldn't disagree with those who had it 7-5 for Bradley.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Whats sad is that i laid 350 to 100 on Salido and still lost 100 bc i put 200 on JMM. JMM is just not quick enough to deal with a mover. He needs someone to come at him and create a opening. Bradley fought a smart fight.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> There's no way Marquez won this fight. The only generous scoring you can have would be a draw, but even that's a bit too much. I thought Bradley did enough to edged him in more rounds and won the fight. I had it 8-4, and i wouldn't disagree with those who had it 7-5 for Bradley.


What is your actual card?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

SouthPaw said:


> GUys. Remember Bogo is a JMM fan, and that affects his scoring where he gave Marquez very close rounds(which is perfectly OK) I had it 8-4 Bradley...maybe 7-5. He was simply too active and Marquez' shots were too far in between to give him those close rounds where Timmy was working.


Its not that bad. He scored Mayweather vs Cotto a draw


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## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Its not that bad. He scored Mayweather vs Cotto a draw


No way he did that....No way.


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## KLion22 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Its not that bad. He scored Mayweather vs Cotto a draw


Are you freaken serious?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

There are 6 rounds I score for Cotto different times I sit down to watch it, but on the night of the fight I didn't score it 6-6 in one sitting. I never said Floyd drew with Cotto or didn't win the fight.


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## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

I love being right


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## CARROTLAD (Jun 18, 2013)

I didn't keep a record of my scorecard, but had Bradley winning 8-4.

I like JMM and fully expected him to win, but it seems he has trouble dealing with quick, defensive footwork.

It's hard to argue that JMM landed the harder shots imo - didn't [the supposedly feather-fisted] TB buckle him twice?

I think Bradley suffers because of how he looks; when he rolls/slips punches he almost looks like he had been hit clean.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

If anybody has a copy of the fight, I'd be greatful. Only seen the result.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Well someone should get me a phone because I fucking called it. I said MD/SD and what happened? Very impressive performance by Bradley dude is top 3 p4p for sure.


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## I am tyler (Dec 20, 2012)

115/113 Bradley, and in the prediction thread i actually predicted 115/113 Bradley, which surprised me.


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## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

I called this aswell, I said 8-4 Bradley which seems about right. This fight makes Pac look better aswell, he quite comfortably beat Bradley and he is clearly a top 3 p4p fighter, if he beats Rios I'd like to see a rematch, it makes sense for both if you ask me.


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## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Thought Bradley won this close but clear, pretty much fought exactly how i thought he would but wasnt anticipating the ease in which he was going to manage it, i was expecting a few sticky situations that never materialized such was the level Bradley was boxing at, fully deserved and very happy for him.


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## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

People were buying to much into the Ruslan fight, but that was Bradley just trying to get some form of vindication after the world was calling him a fraud champion after the Pac fight, going in and pulling a Mayweather type sparring snooze fest wasnt going to prove himself so he went in there and duked it out with a slugger and still beat him at his own game.


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## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> There are 6 rounds I score for Cotto different times I sit down to watch it, but on the night of the fight I didn't score it 6-6 in one sitting. I never said Floyd drew with Cotto or didn't win the fight.


WTF Bogo? No way Cotto won 6 rounds against Floyd. Hell he didn't win 4. Outside of some jabs Cotto rarely landed and clean power shots on Floyd and when he did Floyd usually returned the favor.


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## Zico (Jun 5, 2012)

I had it 6-5-1 Marquez :conf


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## Jonnybravo (Jun 4, 2013)

schooled and owned the end!


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## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> There are 6 rounds I score for Cotto different times I sit down to watch it, but on the night of the fight I didn't score it 6-6 in one sitting. I never said Floyd drew with Cotto or didn't win the fight.


Seriously?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> WTF Bogo? No way Cotto won 6 rounds against Floyd. Hell he didn't win 4. Outside of some jabs Cotto rarely landed and clean power shots on Floyd and when he did Floyd usually returned the favor.


Bro, I just said Cotto didn't win 6 rounds. There are 6 different rounds I've given on 6 different occasions.



Carpe Diem said:


> Seriously?


Yes. The night of the fight after a few beers I gave Cotto the first 3, which are nearly consensus Floyd rounds. Since then my scoring is usually 8-4 for Cotto which is considered generous but oh well.


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## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Bro, I just said Cotto didn't win 6 rounds. There are 6 different rounds I've given on 6 different occasions.
> 
> Yes. The night of the fight after a few beers I gave Cotto the first 3, which are nearly consensus Floyd rounds. *Since then my scoring is usually 8-4 for Cotto which is considered generous but oh well.*


Okay, man. I love your pre-fights breakdown analysis, but when it comes to scoring fights especially fights involved your favorite fighters, TBH you tend to let emotions cloud your judgement a little bit.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> Okay, man. I love your pre-fights breakdown analysis, but when it comes to scoring fights especially fights involved your favorite fighters, TBH you tend to let emotions cloud your judgement a little bit.


I try my best not to and will explain any round I can.



Bogotazo said:


> Upon second watch:
> 
> *Round 1: Marquez*: both landed mostly small body shots until the last minute, where Marquez lands a hard left uppercut (best shot of the round) and a follow up left hook; they proceed to trade jabs and a few more small body shots.
> 
> ...


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## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

116-112 Bradley


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## ATrillionaire (Jun 11, 2013)

ATrillionaire said:


> Almost positive Bradley beats Marquez, just as I was positive Floyd would stand in front of Canelo for large chunks of the fight and Danny would beat Lucas.


:deal


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