# How much does this defeat harm Wlad's legacy?



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Basically, although head to head-wise he doesn't rank so highly, and his tactics are questionable at best, he's probably a borderline top 10 heavy for his overall career, I personally wouldn't have him in the best 10 heavyweights ever, but some do, he's done what's been asked of him for so long. Now he has lost again at the age of 39, not exactly in his peak (many a great was either retired or a shell of their former self at that age, how much do we downgrade Ali or Tyson because of their late-career losses?), looking to be on the decline for a while now, how much can we put this down to his age? Or would he always have struggled against a fighter like Fury, who can move well, and isn't afraid to rough it up? Discuss

Taking nothing away from Tyson Fury here, many thought he was a joke of a fighter, but he went abroad and did what so many thought was impossible and took the crown deservedly, fighting to his uncle's gameplan excellently. Even though it wasn't exciting, I did still enjoyed it, it was an intriguing fight, and I give him all the credit in the world for gutting it out when he was knackered towards the end


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## Sweet Pea (Jun 22, 2013)

Destroys it. Fought the same way he always does against a big, unskilled loser who wasn't afraid to rough him up. Pretty simple game plan, really. Not even top 30 all time. BUM.


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## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

It doesn't mean anything.


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## Medicine (Jun 4, 2013)

Fury trolled Wlad for months, dressed up like batman, called Wlad a devil worshiper, bashed gays, trolled Wlad before the fight, shut Wlad out the entire fight by trolling, took his belts, trolled him in the post fight interview and then sang Aerosmith in the middle of the ring....... This guy is the fucking shit.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Medicine said:


> Fury trolled Wlad for months, dressed up like batman, called Wlad a devil worshiper, bashed gays, trolled Wlad before the fight, shut Wlad out the entire fight by trolling, took his belts, trolled him in the post fight interview and then sang Aerosmith in the middle of the ring....... This guy is the fucking shit.


He chatted shit, but didn't get banged


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

What legacy?


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Sweet Pea said:


> Destroys it. Fought the same way he always does against a big, unskilled loser who wasn't afraid to rough him up. Pretty simple game plan, really. Not even top 30 all time. BUM.


Do you mean that today's version of Fury would always have beaten Wlad, no matter how old?


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## Kieran (Jun 6, 2012)

It's not fair to call Fury a bum. It's true he will never be counted amongst the pantheon of great HW's, but he did something that nobody expected of him and he did it comfortably. We know the Wlad he fought is not prime, but how many other HW's could have bossed him like that tonight?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Probably the most embarrassing moment in Heavyweight history when Fury took that Mic, but it's fitting for the worst era in heavyweight history


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## Uncle Rico (May 24, 2013)

It's not like Wlad is shot. At the very most, he's a few fights past his best - but nothing to the level where Fury's victory should be tainted. Give the man his props. He implemented a gameplan and came in the mould of a fighter which, if we're honest, would have probably beaten Wlad a few years earlier even. Dismiss Fury as a joke all you want, but for all of great Wlad's physical gifts, skills and experience at the highest level, he still couldn't figure him out. 

As for whether it harms Wlad's legacy, it's hard for it not to do so. People will always remember this. That's what they tend to do for defeats - especially if they're not avenged. I personally don't hold Wlad in lower regard, and I believe neither should anyone else. Tonight he was just pick-pocketed by a very awkward, strange man. It's a bitch, but it is what it is.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Props to Tyson did what he had to, the Heavyweight straps get passed on for the first time in 11 years and there's hardly any activity on the forum. :rofl


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

I said for years on here and ESB that Wlad was the most limited HW champion we'd ever seen. We all saw it tonight, couldn't counter Fury's awkwardness, any time he found himself outside or inside of his ideal range he clinched, and zero body work or upper cuts on the inside. Wlad was turning his whole body around at times because he simply did not know what else to do! He's dominated for years because the other guy was skilled but too small, or big enough without the skills. Tonight he ran into a same-size guy with mediocre skills and got found out. Lewis would have fucking destroyed him, KO1 without a doubt.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


> Props to Tyson did what he had to, the Heavyweight straps get passed on for the first time in 11 years and there's hardly any activity on the forum. :rofl


I think people are still in shock tbh. I'm happy as a Brit that Fury won, but I'm a boxing fan first and foremost, nationality doesn't really come into it. I'm still trying to comprehend that we have a new, and all but undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the World, and it's Tyson fucking Fury, beating Wlad like he's a red-headed step-child on his own turf. Unbelieveable Jeff!


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## KERRIGAN (Jul 25, 2012)

Wlad has always been overrated and bizarrely I think some people credit Wlad for what his brother actually did.


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## Roe (Jun 1, 2012)

It obviously dents it a bit but I'm not sure it should have that big an effect. To be dismantled that easily given all the experience that Wlad has was suprising but it happens sometimes.

Give credit to Fury for tonight, but overall I still feel Wlad deserves his recognition as one of the most dominant champions in modern times.


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## genaro g (Jun 7, 2013)

Medicine said:


> Fury trolled Wlad for months, dressed up like batman, called Wlad a devil worshiper, bashed gays, trolled Wlad before the fight, shut Wlad out the entire fight by trolling, took his belts, trolled him in the post fight interview and then sang Aerosmith in the middle of the ring....... This guy is the fucking shit.


Lol and I enjoyed watching every single minute of it. What a perfect ending to the year. Imagine how crazy Wilder and Fury will get in eachothers face. Wilder will slap that dude if he gets outta line. Their alpha egos will be on one to the max. I loved how Fury could turn it on and off and confidence would be fuming. Esp during the face off with Klitzchko. Best shit I've seen in a long while. His respect to Wvlad post fight was genuine. He even apologized to Lennox. He's a good sport. He respects boxing. I like the guy.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

Roe said:


> It obviously dents it a bit but I'm not sure it should have that big an effect. *To be dismantled that easily given all the experience that Wlad has was suprising but it happens sometimes.*
> 
> Give credit to Fury for tonight, but overall I still feel Wlad deserves his recognition as one of the most dominant champions in modern times.


But that's precisely how Wlad's critics said he could/would be beaten, by a guy with skills that he could not physically outmatch. We're all so used to Wlad dominating no-marks that we all forgot that plenty of us were saying that he really wasn't that good and would lose when someone he couldn't bully or hug into oblivion came along. Not many of us thought that man was Tyson Fury though, myself included. . .


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## genaro g (Jun 7, 2013)

Fury kept slapping Wvlad on the ass every time they clinched. Would crack me up everytime. Lmao! Trolled his ass hard, lol.


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## genaro g (Jun 7, 2013)

I dont wanna clooooooose my eyes. I don't wanna saaaay good bye cause I'll miss you baby, and I doont wanna miss a thiiing. Lmao


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## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Wlad's almost 40 years old, and it's unfair to expect him to never lose. Also, it's silly to think that he is even close to his prime right now. People act like Wlad has always been reluctant to throw power punches. Wlad used to blast out power punches in combination. It has been clear for quite some time that Wlad is past his best, he was just great enough to keep winning. Even though his wins were becoming less and less spectacular and dominant. That was a clear sign of his decline. This is a clear case of a fighter who can get into great shape, look like a prime fighter, but simply can't pull the trigger on his punches when the openings present themselves. Let's not kid ourselves, Fury left plenty of openings that Wlad could have exploited. The problem is that Wlad simply can't do what he used to do in the ring. That's not to say that he couldn't get a rematch and win... I really don't see the point at this stage in Wlad's career for him to continue fighting. He's a smart guy, he's made a ton of money, he had an incredible title reign. and didn't take a horrible beating tonight. There is no need to wait until he does before he exits the sport. 

Great career, Wlad. It's a pleasure watching, and supporting you! He was one of the most exciting heavyweights ever during his younger years. During his "Manny Era" he became one of the most dominant and long standing Champions to ever grace the ring. He held onto the title well beyond his prime, and now I think it's a good time to get out of the sport and enjoy life. 

I don't think that this loss should affect his legacy at all. Great job to Tyson Fury. He did enough to win, and I had been telling people since this fight was signed that I had thought Fury was going to upset Wlad. Not that Fury is such an awesome fighter, or a better boxer than Wlad. The writing was on the wall, and Wlad has had a hard time executing in the ring as of late. Fury should be fun to watch... at least at the press conferences.


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## Mexi-Box (Jun 4, 2013)

Hard to even say if Klitschko from the Povetkin fight defeats Fury. Still, you can't erase his wins over Pulev, Povetkin, and Haye.


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## DudeGuyMan (Jul 24, 2012)

It was disgraceful performance. Wlad didn't throw any fucking punches. He didn't come out there and look old and get beat up while fighting a valiant but doomed battle, he just went out there and looked totally fucking baffled at having to fight someone he couldn't clinch to death.


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## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Mexi-Box said:


> Hard to even say if Klitschko from the Povetkin fight defeats Fury. Still, you can't erase his wins over Pulev, Povetkin, and Haye.


Or... Peter, Byrd, Ibragimov, Chambers, Brock, McCline, Chagaev, Thompson, ect.... The man had an amazing heavyweight career, and one of the most dominant title reigns in the history of the sport.


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## Mexi-Box (Jun 4, 2013)

DudeGuyMan said:


> It was disgraceful performance. Wlad didn't throw any fucking punches. He didn't come out there and look old and get beat up while fighting a valiant but doomed battle, he just went out there and looked totally fucking baffled at having to fight someone he couldn't clinch to death.


Roy Jones was shitting on him hard. "This is what happens when you clinch smaller fighters for years. You can't erase your muscle memory." (paraphrased) :lol:


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## Sox (May 19, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Wlad's almost 40 years old, and it's unfair to expect him to never lose. Also, it's silly to think that he is even close to his prime right now. People act like Wlad has always been reluctant to throw power punches. Wlad used to blast out power punches in combination. It has been clear for quite some time that Wlad is past his best, he was just great enough to keep winning. Even though his wins were becoming less and less spectacular and dominant. That was a clear sign of his decline. This is a clear case of a fighter who can get into great shape, look like a prime fighter, but simply can't pull the trigger on his punches when the openings present themselves. Let's not kid ourselves, Fury left plenty of openings that Wlad could have exploited. The problem is that Wlad simply can't do what he used to do in the ring. That's not to say that he couldn't get a rematch and win... I really don't see the point at this stage in Wlad's career for him to continue fighting. He's a smart guy, he's made a ton of money, he had an incredible title reign. and didn't take a horrible beating tonight. There is no need to wait until he does before he exits the sport.
> 
> Great career, Wlad. It's a pleasure watching, and supporting you! He was one of the most exciting heavyweights ever during his younger years. During his "Manny Era" he became one of the most dominant and long standing Champions to ever grace the ring. He held onto the title well beyond his prime, and now I think it's a good time to get out of the sport and enjoy life.
> 
> I don't think that this loss should affect his legacy at all. Great job to Tyson Fury. He did enough to win, and I had been telling people since this fight was signed that I had thought Fury was going to upset Wlad. Not that Fury is such an awesome fighter, or a better boxer than Wlad. The writing was on the wall, and Wlad has had a hard time executing in the ring as of late. Fury should be fun to watch... at least at the press conferences.


This.


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## DudeGuyMan (Jul 24, 2012)

It doesn't matter how old or young you are IF YOU DON'T EVEN FUCKING *TRY* TO THROW ANY PUNCHES.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Wlad's almost 40 years old,


So he should fucking retire, I stopped reading after the rest. No surprise a Klit cocksucker-in-chief is posting a wall of text to excuse a loss. He lost to an average-at-best fighter that eliminated his physical advantages, which is the same type of fighter many of us predicted he would lose to years ago. You'll no doubt be off to suck GGG' s cock from now on. . .


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## Plutus (May 6, 2015)

Hes 39, this loss means nothing imo


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

The Klitard is strong with this thread. First time Wlad runs into a skilled Heavyweight his own size, he gets embarassed and shown up as an amateur. I'd repost my years old posts from here and ESB to emphasise the point if I wasn't drunk as fuck, I'll let others close the argument.


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## tylerdurden (Jun 30, 2015)

Holyfield and Foreman said to Klit, "you can beat this guy, but the smart thing to do is to lose! You've got a rematch clause. You come in and knock him out! ATG guaranteed, and a ton of cash"


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Sweet Pea said:


> Destroys it. Fought the same way he always does against a big, unskilled loser who wasn't afraid to rough him up. Pretty simple game plan, really. Not even top 30 all time. BUM.


Trolling or idiot. Hmmm.

He is still top 10 of all time.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Cableaddict said:


> What legacy?


Fuck off, lad.


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## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

Tko6 said:


> The Klitard is strong with this thread. First time Wlad runs into a skilled Heavyweight his own size, he gets embarassed and shown up as an amateur. I'd repost my years old posts from here and ESB to emphasise the point if I wasn't drunk as fuck, I'll let others close the argument.


All I see is people bashing a 40 year old for losing. The desperation is strong here.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Probably the most embarrassing moment in Heavyweight history when Fury took that Mic, but it's fitting for the worst era in heavyweight history


You have no knowledge of HW history.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Tko6 said:


> I said for years on here and ESB that Wlad was the most limited HW champion we'd ever seen..


The fact you think this is true now or ever thought so tells it all.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

DudeGuyMan said:


> It doesn't matter how old or young you are IF YOU DON'T EVEN FUCKING *TRY* TO THROW ANY PUNCHES.


You are a fucking Arreola fan. Stop shitting on Wlad.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Tko6 said:


> So he should fucking retire, I stopped reading after the rest. No surprise a Klit cocksucker-in-chief is posting a wall of text to excuse a loss. He lost to an average-at-best fighter that eliminated his physical advantages, which is the same type of fighter many of us predicted he would lose to years ago. You'll no doubt be off to suck GGG' s cock from now on. . .


Disgusting post showing you know dick all.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Disgusting post showing you know dick all.


My mistake, I thought you were a decent poster. My username indicates my feelings on the subject, both brothers have huge asterisks against their name, and Fury just stamped a huge full stop on Wlad's career. If we're going to go this way, what are your excuses for Wlad's loss tonight?


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

LeapingHook said:


> All I see is people bashing a 40 year old for losing. The desperation is strong here.


If you send Wlad enough emails, he might actually let you suck his cock. Chances are he won't, but it's time better spent than replying to someone called 'TKO6' bro.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Tko6 said:


> My mistake, I thought you were a decent poster. My username indicates my feelings on the subject, both brothers have huge asterisks against their name, and Fury just stamped a huge full stop on Wlad's career. If we're going to go this way, what are your excuses for Wlad's loss tonight?


Oh now I see, your username gives away the horrible bias.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Disgusting post showing you know dick all.


Are you drunk? I've been there, posted shit and discovered it the next morning. Seriously, if you're going to be an asshole, leave it until the morning, send me a PM explaining you had too much to drink and didn't mean anything you said, you don't even have to apologise. If you're going to defend this shit, then all bets are off. . .


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Fair play. Totally missed you username @Tko6

Carry on.

Too drunk to argue.


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## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

Tko6 said:


> If you send Wlad enough emails, he might actually let you suck his cock. Chances are he won't, but it's time better spent than replying to someone called 'TKO6' bro.


If you tell yourself enough times that Wlad is not a 40 year old man, you might convince yourself this was him at his prime!


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Tko6 said:


> Are you drunk?


Horrendously. Half a litre of grants whisky and about 8 pints of strongbow deep.

Not going to apologise but I still think your posts are silly. But TKO6 I cannot disagree with so carry on.

Hope you are enjoying yourself and revel in the decision.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

LeapingHook said:


> If you tell yourself enough times that Wlad is not a 40 year old man, you might convince yourself this was him at his prime!


So is he good enough to fight or not?


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## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

Tko6 said:


> So is he good enough to fight or not?


He's too old, it's time to hang them up.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

Fuck me, this is like ESB all over again. I'll give every boxer their due respect for getting in the ring (as every fan should) but please don't shit in my mouth and tell me it's chocolate. Wlad always was a hype job that fought on his own terms, I've spent the best part of a decade saying it, and a mediocre boxer his own size just emphasised the point.


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## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

Tko6 said:


> Fuck me, this is like ESB all over again. I'll give every boxer their due respect for getting in the ring (as every fan should) but please don't shit in my mouth and tell me it's chocolate. Wlad always was a hype job that fought on his own terms, I've spent the best part of a decade saying it, and a mediocre boxer his own size just emphasised the point.


Indeed it is with you around, you were "proven right" when Wlad hit 40 years old. Congrats? You know there's no argument against it lol.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

LeapingHook said:


> He's too old, it's time to hang them up.


So you were saying that before tonight? I'll fully acknowledge your posts and apologise if you were, sincerely. If not, you're conveniently finding excuses after the fact.


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## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

Tko6 said:


> So you were saying that before tonight? I'll fully acknowledge your posts and apologise if you were, sincerely. If not, you're conveniently finding excuses after the fact.


It was apparent at the Jennings and Povetkin fights he was getting there with age.


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## LeapingHook (Jan 2, 2014)

TKO6 I'm messing with you brotha, I saw your name and couldn't resist.


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## Floyd_g.o.a.t (Jun 11, 2013)

It doesn't damage it. The man is nearly 40 and his legacy is set.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

LeapingHook said:


> TKO6 I'm messing with you brotha, I saw your name and couldn't resist.


Honestly, I'm so used to Wlad's dominance that I've forgotten all I ever said, but my instinct to pro-Klitschko posts is I want to strangle someone. Fuck it, the flagship division is in a better state now than it was yesterday, on that we all should agree.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

Mexi-Box said:


> Roy Jones was shitting on him hard. "This is what happens when you clinch smaller fighters for years. You can't erase your muscle memory." (paraphrased) :lol:


It's true though. Fury was wide open to upper cuts the whole fight but Wlad is conditioned to grab, jab, then rinse and repeat. Fuck it, I don't know why I'm looking at other peoples posts now, I''m drunk as fuck and couldn't be happier.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Depends how you count losses. In terms of ranking I personally weigh a fighter's wins and don't subtract losses from those accomplishments because failures to achieve something don't erase achievements. 

But legacy is something different, its how you're remembered and esteemed in the minds of future generations. I think this definitely hurts Wlad's legacy. It's very likely he'll be seen as a man who won largely because of size and a simplistic style that heavily relied on borderline illegal tactics (the jab being left out and all the excessive clinching). He got knocked out without Steward's rangy defensive mold and just lost using the same system he always uses against an agile smart fighter but who honestly lacks a lot of skill. Heavyweight ATG's have lost to lesser fighters at times but put Wlad's conquerors next to the rest. I don't think Wlad sneaks inside the top 10 and this probably put a halt on his ability to do so. I'm glad Louis will stay on top with the longest reign.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I mean I was excited at the prospect of a torch-passing because you all know by now that I'm frequently disappointed by the newer generation being unable to dethrone champions of yesterday and few were more dominant than Wlad. But looking at the later rounds of that fight, the sloppy exchanges and the off balance leaps from both men just made me almost disbelieve that I was watching a Heavyweight World Title fight. These two oafs were swinging and ducking awkwardly and spinning around each other for the title once held by Louis, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson. It's just bizarre. I'm not complaining because I'm glad Fury has energized the boxing world and Wlad's boring reign has come to an end but this HW era is especially bad and for Wlad to lose like that in it makes him stand out far less in the eyes of history.


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## charlie harper (May 18, 2013)

He is almost 40 years old, obviously he was going to lose someday. This shouldn't affect much his legacy. 

Btw, the cuts were all caused by headbutts.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

charlie harper said:


> He is almost 40 years old, obviously he was going to lose someday. This shouldn't affect much his legacy.
> 
> Btw, the cuts were all caused by headbutts.


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## E R Vegas (May 16, 2013)

Minor damage. People will see what they want to for the most part. Like believing Tyson Fury is "average at best." Delusional, even for a boxing forum.

If you want to hold his style and size against him you will, if you don't you won't. He had a looooong period of domination and beat a lot of excellent fighters, but never met an opponent who would be widely regarded as an ATG. There's a lot of room for subjectivity.


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## Bratwurzt (May 16, 2013)

All it took was a bigger man with a bit of speed and movement and this 'all time great' was clueless. His punch and grab style was useless in this fight.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

Klitty couldn't use his octopus grabs against a man the same size with a jab, which is why he got shut out. It's really as simple as that.

I think this loss harmed his legacy big time.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Lmao.....Wlad got fucking DESTROYED by a dude that UPPER CUTTED HIMSELF lmfao.

Widow Maker on sucide watch fucking moron. Your hero got owned by a god damn gypsy.

Prime Lewis would have raped any version of Wlad to death.

Wladimir is a borderline top 10 heavyweight due to inflation and influxe of miderita quota via stats. Head to head, he ain't shit.
Borderline top 30 at best H2H.

Fury upper cutted himself. I don't give a shit how 'green' he was at the time, the HEAVYWEIGHT champion of the WORLD upper cutted himself.

atsch


Fury clowned and shit talked on Wlad's race,religion,country,smell,wife,manhood,history,resume,and brother for weeks non stop. He than went into Wlad's backyard and managed to hug Wlad to death via UD.

That's like a guy beating Floyd by shoulder roll.


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## TeddyL (Oct 5, 2013)

It won't. Nobody except the Brits genuinely thinks Fury won due to anything other than Vlad not turning up. Fury got it by default.

He will dominate and stop Fury within 8 rounds in the rematch. It will just be seen as a blip in his career due to an off night, similar to Lennox and Rahman


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

TeddyL said:


> It won't. Nobody except the Brits genuinely thinks Fury won due to anything other than Vlad not turning up. Fury got it by default.
> 
> He will dominate and stop Fury within 8 rounds in the rematch. It will just be seen as a blip in his career due to an off night, similar to Lennox and Rahman


:rofl


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## Mexi-Box (Jun 4, 2013)

Question... what will happen to BoxingDomain and CHEF? They take this loss hard?


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

Mexi-Box said:


> Question... what will happen to BoxingDomain and CHEF? They take this loss hard?


Border police have been notified and all Special Forces are on standby. They have a description of pasty muthafuckas carrying food, cameras and salty salty tears. They'll be rounded up soon enough.


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## Nucking Futs (Jul 12, 2013)

Don't remember any cunt saying Wlad will lose because he is 40 before hand so bringing it up now is nothing more than pathetic excuse making, I like most thought Wlad would win pretty handily but he didn't he was basically out boxed.

Deal with it


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## Ernest Shackleton (Jun 8, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Do you mean that today's version of Fury would always have beaten Wlad, no matter how old?


I think this version of Fury would have beaten any version of Wlad of last ten years. Wlad still looked good in there last night, but Fury took away his biggest weapon, his jab. He would have done that in any of the fights of the last ten years. 
Age is irrelevant, it's boxing. A very old Hopkins took away Pavliks jab.


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

It harms it a lot. Always said that the heavyweight devision is dog shit. I knew that Fury would be a hard fight for Klitschko but didnt knew that Klitschko would look that bad. Sure he was old and not as fast as he used to be. But real great champions try to overcome adversity. Klitschko didnt. he just tried the same shit over and over again. Wasnt even really aggresive (except in short spots) because he was afraid of getting hit.
I am very happy with this victory. But Tyson Fury wont bring back exciting fights in the ring imo.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Uncle Rico said:


> It's not like Wlad is shot. At the very most, he's a few fights past his best - but nothing to the level where Fury's victory should be tainted.
> As for whether it harms Wlad's legacy, it's hard for it not to do so.


True.

The fight highlighted Wolodya's weaknesses.

Both mental and physical.

The aging Steward-Wolodya's weaknesses.

But still.

His offensive game has declined significantly - almost comparable to how Hop's offense changed over the years.
The difference is Wova is still a world-class puncher.
But in that fight he looked as effective on his frontfoot/with his jab as Hop did versus Taylor.
Apprehensive, limited and one-dimensional.
To Wolodya's credit he did try to rally in the last round - and it showed clearly that the days of him being a world-class offensive fighter are long gone.

The fight itself was rather average, sloppy, lotsa awkward moves and almost no serious punches.

And Fury was the reason for that.

Gypsy troll outclowned, outsmarted and fooled the German robot.


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## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2013)

It's ridiculous how he is so used to clinching so much that it has become muscle memory and that's all he was doing even knowing he was down on the cards.


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## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

GlassJaw said:


> It's ridiculous how he is so used to clinching so much that it has become muscle memory and that's all he was doing even knowing he was down on the cards.


Yeah. What he was missing was any explosive power wich he used to have a lot. Gone. Thats what age does to you. But really mentally the guy was weak. If the shit isnt working you do. Then try something else. Make more pressure throw some fucking punches! If you dont throw punches how are you going to win? Klitschko just waited and waited for Fury to make a mistake.
All in all Klitschko is done. Time for a new era. But it is really sad to see how weak the division actually is.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

GlassJaw said:


> It's ridiculous how he is so used to clinching so much that it has become muscle memory and that's all he was doing even knowing he was down on the cards.


You mean the same thing that people like me have been saying for the past decade? Wlad was never that good and was shown up by a same size fighter with the tools to deal with his cheating. All of his opponents in that time have been too small or unskilled (usually both) to be competitive. I'm not going to crow because Fury is awful, but what does it say when an awful fighter beats him because Wlad can't use his usual dirty tricks?


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## Squire (May 17, 2013)

Time will tell what it does to his legacy, it's impossible to say now. What happens in the rematch and what kind of career Tyson Fury has will determine the long term implications of this fight.



WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Wlad's almost 40 years old, and it's unfair to expect him to never lose. Also, it's silly to think that he is even close to his prime right now. People act like Wlad has always been reluctant to throw power punches. Wlad used to blast out power punches in combination. It has been clear for quite some time that Wlad is past his best, he was just great enough to keep winning. Even though his wins were becoming less and less spectacular and dominant. That was a clear sign of his decline. This is a clear case of a fighter who can get into great shape, look like a prime fighter, but simply can't pull the trigger on his punches when the openings present themselves. Let's not kid ourselves, Fury left plenty of openings that Wlad could have exploited. The problem is that Wlad simply can't do what he used to do in the ring. That's not to say that he couldn't get a rematch and win... I really don't see the point at this stage in Wlad's career for him to continue fighting. He's a smart guy, he's made a ton of money, he had an incredible title reign. and didn't take a horrible beating tonight. There is no need to wait until he does before he exits the sport.
> 
> Great career, Wlad. It's a pleasure watching, and supporting you! He was one of the most exciting heavyweights ever during his younger years. During his "Manny Era" he became one of the most dominant and long standing Champions to ever grace the ring. He held onto the title well beyond his prime, and now I think it's a good time to get out of the sport and enjoy life.
> 
> I don't think that this loss should affect his legacy at all. Great job to Tyson Fury. He did enough to win, and I had been telling people since this fight was signed that I had thought Fury was going to upset Wlad. Not that Fury is such an awesome fighter, or a better boxer than Wlad. The writing was on the wall, and Wlad has had a hard time executing in the ring as of late. Fury should be fun to watch... at least at the press conferences.


Amen, brother.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> although head to head-wise he doesn't rank so highly,


He does though, very few HWs in history get past his jab or outjab him. I'm not a fan but he's incredibly effective despite being past prime for a few years, he's 39 now after all.



Eoghan said:


> he's probably a borderline top 10 heavy for his overall career, I personally wouldn't have him in the best 10 heavyweights ever,


These things depend on criteria, in terms of longevity and dominance he's top 5, in terms of H2H he's top 5 imo, in terms of exciting he doesn't rate too highly. People overrate boxers from other eras who were limited or not that convincing.



Tko6 said:


> I said for years on here and ESB that Wlad was the most limited HW champion we'd ever seen. We all saw it tonight, couldn't counter Fury's awkwardness, any time he found himself outside or inside of his ideal range he clinched, and zero body work or upper cuts on the inside. Wlad was turning his whole body around at times because he simply did not know what else to do! He's dominated for years because the other guy was skilled but too small, or big enough without the skills. Tonight he ran into a same-size guy with mediocre skills and got found out. Lewis would have fucking destroyed him, KO1 without a doubt.


But you were wrong, just because there's a style that he has fits with doesn't make him limited. If he's limited what's Frazier, Dempsey, Foreman? Nevermind the also rans. All have very clear weaknesses and could only fight 1 way pretty much

Agreed that Lewis would have got to him.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Not.
His legacy is already made, he just won't go up in the rankings any more.


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## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

Tko6 said:


> You mean the same thing that people like me have been saying for the past decade? Wlad was never that good and was shown up by a same size fighter with the tools to deal with his cheating. All of his opponents in that time have been too small or unskilled (usually both) to be competitive. I'm not going to crow because Fury is awful, but what does it say when an awful fighter beats him because Wlad can't use his usual dirty tricks?


Spot on. I will give Wladimir credit because the stats don't lie and his longevity is almost unmatched. The problem many of us have is his style and more specifically his clinching is borderline illegal and I maintain that the Povetkin fight should be NC it got that ridiculous. Yes he's 40 years old and has slowed a little bit in the past few years, but that decline is not nearly sharp enough for that to be an excuse here, he produced his best performance in years against a half decent Pulev just a couple of fights ago.

Fury came into the fight knowing full well that a herky jerky style would confuse the shit out of Wladimir. The fight was ugly and scrappy but it was incredible and a testament to just how limited Klitschko is that he couldn't adjust his game to hit a fighter who was still plainly there to be hit. That isn't because he's 40. It's because as others have mentioned he's ruled over a crop of fighters who are either too small, too unskilled and too unfit to give him trouble. He has never had to worry about a bigger fighter coming along who can negate his physical advantages whilst neutralising his cheating. Fury deserves massive credit, for all of his perceived weaknesses such as his ungainly movement and his weak chin he knows how to fight and has a higher ring IQ than people give him credit for.

As for Wladimir's legacy, of course it's a little bit damaged, you can't take his longevity away from him but h2h he's looking a lot weaker than before last night. He lost because he was outboxed by a more clever fighter and the same would have happened regardless of age. He doesn't even scrape the top 10 for me as the glaring weaknesses of last night were weaknesses that have long been identified but the class of opposition had never previously been available to expose him.


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## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

A lot.

Let's face it, he was completely outclassed by a jab, feints and some movement. He had NO ANSWER, NONE....adaptability = 0.


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## Strike (Jun 4, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Trolling or idiot. Hmmm.
> 
> He is still top 10 of all time.


I just don't see it. He is top 15 for sure. Top ten? No. His era has been AWFUL. And on top of that he lost to Purrity, got obliterated by Sanders and beaten by Brewster. Struggled with Peters and used very negative tactics with borderline illegal holding in a lot of bouts. But his longevity and his skillset when he is being offensive mean he deserves to be recognised as an ATG. But I just don't see how he is in the top ten. Which top level wins does he have?

Povetkin, Byrd, Haye, Peter and Chagaev are his best wins. That really says it all. Chagaev is not even a very good name...a guy who wasn't even very dominant over Skelton, scraped past Ruiz...went 12 with Meehan. I suppose you could add Chambers into the mix. Still his best three wins are probably...

Povetkin, Haye and Byrd in terms of their talent. Two small heavies and in Povektin one who came in out of shape and has really underachieved himself.

Of course ANY record can be broken down and criticised, but Wlad has bossed a load of shot to shit or very average fighters and has been badly beaten both in KO fashion and now simply by having no plan B to someone just moving about and not being smaller than him. H2H hypotheticals have to count too. What do we think would happen to Wlad against a prime Lewis, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Holyfield, Liston and even Bowe?

He would have lost brutally to all but Holyfield and Bowe and I'd happily back Holyfield to have made an inside fight that beat Wlad up and a prime Bowe to have a great shot too. The other issue is one that is not his fault, but for years the clear number 2 was a guy he would never fight as they were brothers. So he ruled a division without fighting the one other candidate for being the main man. If Lewis had fought Wlad when he fought Vitali, Wlad would have been KO'd inside 3 rounds.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Who do you have in your top 10 if Wlad isn't in it?
Please don't say Jack Johnson or Dempsey.


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## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

Top 10 of all time? :rofl

He showed last night he has 0 adaptability, NONE. Everytime Wladimir faced adversity, he crumbled... he damn near crumbled against C-level plodder Sam Peter.


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## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

Strike said:


> I just don't see it. He is top 15 for sure. Top ten? No. His era has been AWFUL. And on top of that he lost to Purrity, got obliterated by Sanders and beaten by Brewster. Struggled with Peters and used very negative tactics with borderline illegal holding in a lot of bouts. But his longevity and his skillset when he is being offensive mean he deserves to be recognised as an ATG. But I just don't see how he is in the top ten. Which top level wins does he have?
> 
> Povetkin, Byrd, Haye, Peter and Chagaev are his best wins. That really says it all. Chagaev is not even a very good name...a guy who wasn't even very dominant over Skelton, scraped past Ruiz...went 12 with Meehan. I suppose you could add Chambers into the mix. Still his best three wins are probably...
> 
> ...


Spot on.

But I think Bowe had enough fight in him to take Wladimir to the dog house and clean him out. That's a good fight, actually.. because Bowe would take it to him.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Lmao.....Wlad got fucking DESTROYED by a dude that UPPER CUTTED HIMSELF lmfao.
> 
> Widow Maker on sucide watch fucking moron. Your hero got owned by a god damn gypsy.
> 
> ...


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Meldrick Taylor also punched himself during the Chavez fight


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Also how is having your best wins over "small" heavyweights any worse than past great Marciano whose best wins were over "big" middleweights.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Probably the most embarrassing moment in Heavyweight history when Fury took that Mic, but it's fitting for the worst era in heavyweight history


I thought Fury's attitude would be right up your street as well.Constantly winding people up and not giving a fuck.
Him winning last night was the best thing to happen to that shit division for years.I hated Tyson until about 18 months ago and then I realised he trolls brilliantly.
Then I became a fan although I often preferred watching him outside the ring.
At least you might have a reason to smile in the build ups now.


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## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

Tyson Fury is not a daft lad, if you take your time to listen to him, you'd find he uses a lot of tongue-in-cheek, but also makes a whole lot of sense.

I think a matchup between himself and Wilder would be brilliant.


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## Dee (Feb 22, 2015)

I've never been a Wlad fan, but had a lot of respect for him after the Haye fight. 

You could clearly see Wlad's legs going - But the legs are the first thing to go. Even Floyd's legs have been slower over his past couple of fights, and Pacquiao's legs have been gone a while. 

But that's all Wlad didn't really have in his past couple of fights. Nowhere near enough of a decline to tarnish Fury's win. 

Truth is, Fury just had his number. It happens sometimes.


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## Dee (Feb 22, 2015)

I will say this much though, all those Klit huggers who try to tarnish Ali by laughing about Ken Norton will now understand what it means when somebody 'has your number'

:rofl


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## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

Dee said:


> I will say this much though, all those Klit huggers who try to tarnish Ali by laughing about Ken Norton will now understand what it means when somebody 'has your number'
> 
> :rofl


Muhammad Ali would've literally raped Wladimirs face. Tyson Fury took a page out of Ali's book, only he was taller, slow as molasses and still made Wladimir look a damn fool.
Klitschko wouldn't lay a glove on prime Ali.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

It's not the fact that he lost that harms his legacy, it's the way he lost that harms it. He gave his titles away because he was afraid to absorb a single retaliatory blow. He fought scared, and that is more unforgivable than losing.

Steward did alot of great things for him, but he also programmed him to fight like coward, even in fights where he enjoyed every conceivable advantage.

Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> I thought Fury's attitude would be right up your street as well.Constantly winding people up and not giving a fuck.
> Him winning last night was the best thing to happen to that shit division for years.I hated Tyson until about 18 months ago and then I realised he trolls brilliantly.
> Then I became a fan although I often preferred watching him outside the ring.
> At least you might have a reason to smile in the build ups now.


That wasn't trolling that was Tyson Fury being Tyson Fury.

But you're right it wasn't so much Fury who I find a little endearing but the entire spectacle. The bored German crowd, the horrible fight itself, the fact the heavyweight title changed hands and nobody cared , then the singing. Hard to put into words but boxing lost last night but maybe it was a necessary defeat.


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

Mr Magic said:


> A lot.
> 
> Let's face it, he was completely outclassed by a jab, feints and some movement. He had NO ANSWER, NONE....adaptability = 0.


or perhaps wlad just woke up old overnight?

for a guy with confirmed glass for punch resistance klitscho has had a remarkable career.

a career much much better than amir khan, also a holder of confirmed glass with arguably the same skill set

wlad coulve easily gone the way of tyrell biggs yet remained hw champ for ten years


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## Antsu (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> or perhaps wlad just woke up old overnight?


Naah.

Fury would have beat any version of Wlad


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Didn't Steward tell Fury that he'd be the HW champion some day?
He was right


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

dyna said:


> Didn't Steward tell Fury that he'd be the HW champion some day?
> He was right


Believe he told Wilder, don't have a source but I thought Wilder


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

On the subject; gutted that Wlad lost, I would say he's still top 10 material. Ali, Holmes, Tyson all lost when they were getting older to fighters they would obliterate in their prime. Not that I want to take anything away from Fury but Wlad just got older and lost. On the top of my head the only hw's I can think of that had marquee results at 38+ were Lewis (Vitali), Holyfield ("draw" with Lewis, Ruiz) and Foreman (Moorer). I think I would have Wlad at around number 8

1 Muhammed Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Lennox Lewis
4 Evander Hoylfield
5 Larry Holmes
6 George Foreman
7 Joe Frazier
8 Wladimir Klitschko
9 Mike Tyson
10 Sonny Liston


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## KO-KING (Nov 9, 2014)

doesn't harm it at all, he's going on 40, clearly been on decline for few years


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## charlie harper (May 18, 2013)

He embarrased himself.

However, lets not forget he still dominated for 9 years, had 18 title defenses and beat some good fighters: Haye, Povetkin, Byrd x2, Pulev. He was almost 40 years old, lets remember how were other champs at 37 or 38. 

Besides, Wlad was unbeaten during 11 years. No other heavyweight has done this during his prime years.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 6, 2013)

Wlad always was pretty limited and always had to use dirty tactics to win. Especially against Povetkin wich I dont count as a win for Wladimir.
After all Wladimir would get knocked out against every other so called ATG HW. Simple fact.


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## Sweet Pea (Jun 22, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Trolling or idiot. Hmmm.
> 
> He is still top 10 of all time.


Trolling, but he was never a top 10 Heavyweight of all time.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 6, 2013)

Sweet Pea said:


> Trolling, but he was never a top 10 Heavyweight of all time.


Yes.
H2H even hard to put him in to the top 20.
Guy is a robot and always was one and he seriously lacks an atg win over another very good HW (and please dont come up with Haye or Povetkin). Haye did nothing at HW and Povetkin does not count as a win.


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## D-U-D-E (Jul 31, 2013)

Uncle Rico said:


> Tonight he was just pick-pocketed by a very awkward, strange man. It's a bitch, but it is what it is.


:rofl That about sums it up really. Fury is trolling the fuck out of everyone right now and I'm loving it. People haven't been this riled up by a fighter since a prime Ali. I mean just look at some of the reactions on here, it's hilarious :lol:


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## Bill Jincock (Jun 19, 2012)

The losses against Brewster(one of the most hilariously bad losses of any arguably great heavyweight in or near their prime) and Sanders are more damaging to me.He's an old fighter now.

Wlad was never really a genuinely great fighter imo.Just a good but very flawed one that eventually got the most out of his career(no mean feat as he could easily have folded after those two bad losses) and had a long run against mediocre fighters.He's more comparable to someone like Carlos DeLeon and his one million cruiserweight defences than any genuine all-timer you care to mention imo.Then again, Heavyweights always get more of a benefit of the doubt as to any greatness just for a long reign than lighter weight fighters do.


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## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2013)

Tko6 said:


> You mean the same thing that people like me have been saying for the past decade? Wlad was never that good and was shown up by a same size fighter with the tools to deal with his cheating. All of his opponents in that time have been too small or unskilled (usually both) to be competitive. I'm not going to crow because Fury is awful, but what does it say when an awful fighter beats him because Wlad can't use his usual dirty tricks?


Maybe you have and it was no secret that Wlad clinches constantly, but in all previous fights he was at least throwing jabs constantly. In this fight he wasn't throwing punches basically at all, he just stood there and clinched over and over. I think they said he threw and landed a career low, and it had to be high on the list of lowest punches thrown and landed EVER in compubox history. I have always liked Klitshcko mostly but have never defended his jab and grab technique, but he looked overly terrible in this fight.


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## Someguy101 (Jun 4, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> It's not the fact that he lost that harms his legacy, it's the way he lost that harms it. He gave his titles away because he was afraid to absorb a single retaliatory blow. He fought scared, and that is more unforgivable than losing.
> 
> Steward did alot of great things for him, but he also programmed him to fight like coward, even in fights where he enjoyed every conceivable advantage.
> 
> Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk


Steward would have made him fucking fight. Now discussion. He'd be rolling in his grave at that passive bullshit performance by Wladimir.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Someguy101 said:


> Steward would have made him fucking fight. Now discussion. He'd be rolling in his grave at that passive bullshit performance by Wladimir.


"Steward would have made him fight".

Before Wlad Steward, no one ever had to "make" him fight. That's part of the problem. Steward changed his whole mentality as a fighter.

Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk


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## Someguy101 (Jun 4, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> "Steward would have made him fight".
> 
> Before Wlad Steward, no one ever had to "make" him fight. That's part of the problem. Steward changed his whole mentality as a fighter.
> 
> Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk


You're wrong. If Wlad was tepid in a fight Manny would abuse him in the corner, force him to fight. Banks is too passive.


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## Uncle Rico (May 24, 2013)

D-U-D-E said:


> :rofl That about sums it up really. Fury is trolling the fuck out of everyone right now and I'm loving it. People haven't been this riled up by a fighter since a prime Ali. I mean just look at some of the reactions on here, it's hilarious :lol:


:lol: I've read quite a few comments on Facebook and news articles, and there is a genuine outrage that a large bulk of the heavyweight treasure now belongs to this man....


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Someguy101 said:


> You're wrong. If Wlad was tepid in a fight Manny would abuse him in the corner, force him to fight. Banks is too passive.


You do remember who Wlad was before he teamed with Steward, right? Yes, Steward would abuse Wlad in the corner, but it only be for taking Emmanuel's own instructions to the extreme:

Paw with the jab and keep distance.
Don't expend too much energy.
Tie up in close.
Lean on smaller fighters excessively to tire them out.

And, for God's sake, don't let anyone lay a glove on you, because you will crumble like an aged corpse.

Steward wanted to make Wlad similar to Lewis and they took it too far. His self-confidence never truly returned to where it was supposed to be and much of it had to do with how he was trained, and how he responded to that training.

Wlad was the robot who took everything in and was never able to improvise.

Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

I guess it all comes down to where you rated Wladimir before the fight. Some hand him very high in the ATG heavyweights list and I think that takes a bit of shine of those claims.

Personally I have him sitting outside of the top ten in 12th:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Jack Johnson
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Joe Frazier
10. Mike Tyson
11. Sonny Liston
12. Wladimir Klitschko
13. Jack Dempsey
14. Harry Wills
15. Floyd Patterson

I don't think this loss takes away from what he has achieved. He has boxed in a week era for sure but he has still dominated a beat the best fighters in the division from Brewster I till this fight - twenty word title victories on the trot over a ten year reign is mighty impressive and extremely hard to achieve even in a weak era.

Byrd, Chagaev, Haye, Pulev, Povetkin, Peter, Ibragimov, Brewster, Thompon x2, Chambers and Jennings is still a pretty neat resume considering how weak the era is. He does get called out on reigning alongside his brother but his brothers reign was pretty poor tbh, the best fighters he beat were Arreola and Adamek in that run and they wouldn't really improve Wlads standings imo.

You can call him out on his tactics and thats fair to an extent, he did effectively use fouling tactics to win fights but so did Jack Johnson, Muhammad Ali and Evander Holyfield, not to the extent that Wlad does but if they can get away with something they will all use it. 

As for this loss it all depends on what happens from here. If Wlad loses a rematch and then continues ad looks poor after then people will say he was shot, if he wins a rematch it could well improve his standings as that win has now legitimized Fury, something that wouldn't have been there had he won last night. Fury coud go on to get bashed up by average (world level) boxers and the loss will look worse or he could have a great reign himself and make it look not so bad 0- hard to say at this point as we can't see the future.


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## Slick Ric (Apr 7, 2015)

It harms it, no doubt. His age didn't stop him from beating all of his other recent opponents in dominant fashion. Most boxing fans thought he would be the champ for years to come, but he ran into a guy his own size who can move a bit and he was completely outclassed. His typical gameplan didn't work and he had no plan b. This fight highlights how one dimensional he is and that hurts his legacy for sure, especially in a H2H sense.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

I really think it harms Wlad in a H2H sense more so than a resume sense. He's done his thing in a pathetic era, but his raw numbers really have him hovering around 10 to 12. I won't be shocked if most lists have him at top 10. In a H2H sense, this just confirms the suspicions of his glaring weaknesses. Not just his chin, but his lack of urgency, his inability to adapt, his cautious nature, and his overall robotic style of fighting. Lewis at times could also be robotic and lethargic, but he knew how to turn it on in dog fights. Lewis adjusted wonderfully to Bruno when Bruno was getting the better of him, Lewis was adjusting to Vitali as the fight was being stopped. 
Wlad either don't know or just simply refuse to adapt to a new gameplan mid way through the fight. I am actually pretty confident Prime Wlad will beat Fury 9 times out of 10, but that's only because Fury isn't even a very good fighter. He's a good fighter with a weird style that managed to highlight Wlad's many flaws.

Wlad isn't THAT FAR past prime btw. He's around the same stage of his career as Holyfield was in 97,98 in terms of regression. 1998 Holyfield would have beaten this Fury badly.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Also I still can't get over his lack of urgency. I actually am perplexed by how this could be. It's shocking to say this, but I think he's so wired to be a robotic hug and grab fighter that his natural instincts take over even when he knows he need to fight more. 

What's also confusing is that Fury isn't a big puncher. Wlad could have just slugged it out and I think come out the better for it. I actually believe Fury got the even weaker chin.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

The aggressive Wladimir from the Mercer fight probably would have beaten Fury. I don't know why he doesn't turn that on when he needs to


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## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> The aggressive Wladimir from the Mercer fight probably would have beaten Fury. I don't know why he doesn't turn that on when he needs to


I agree, hell even the Wlad that lost against Lamon would have knocked Fury out.
I don't know what happened yesterday, but it had nothing to do with his physical ability and seemed to have everything to do with not being able to lean on a smaller man.

Its crazy to me.
like I said in the thread, this loss kills any chance of Wlad ever being remembers and discussed as a ATG HW champ along the lines of Ali and Louis or hell even fucking Lennox Lewis.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> The aggressive Wladimir from the Mercer fight probably would have beaten Fury. I don't know why he doesn't turn that on when he needs to


I don't think he has that state of mind anymore.
Or maybe he's mentally shot, not shot enough that it affects his training but enough that it affects him during the fight and being unable to give it the full 100%.

And maybe the Fury fight is a little similar to the DaVarryl Williamson fight, Wlad won that fight (one judge and some people saw it differently).
But Wlad looked very vulnerable during that fight, almost as if that accidental cut was actually a good thing for Wlad.


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## CaskAle (Jul 7, 2015)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Also I still can't get over his lack of urgency. I actually am perplexed by how this could be. It's shocking to say this, but I think he's so wired to be a robotic hug and grab fighter that his natural instincts take over even when he knows he need to fight more.
> 
> What's also confusing is that Fury isn't a big puncher. Wlad could have just slugged it out and I think come out the better for it. I actually believe Fury got the even weaker chin.


Wlads 40 year old skin seems to cut easily

He wasn't even trying to throw punches, he was looking for openings to clinch
There were so many openings with Tyson wide open for a second or so but he just clinched instead

It was really appalling

I think he is incapable of throwing combinations now, he throws one punch at a time and ALWAYS clinches after - even if he hurts the opponent. He does it with everyone - hurts them and then clinches on the ropes before throwing a single punch again 15 seconds later to initiate another clinch. He even did it in the last round vs Fury when everyone knew he had to knock him out to win

He was never like that before Steward, since knocking out Ray Austin his offense has got worse and worse


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> The aggressive Wladimir from the Mercer fight probably would have beaten Fury. I don't know why he doesn't turn that on when he needs to


It's a funny thing actually, isn't it?

Wolodya had spent years rebuilding himself and changing his style but by the time he perfected it there were no sanders' around.

What's left was he, his brother and the rest of the bunch - which resulted in 10 excruciatingly long years of boredom and dominance.

The pre-Steward Wova would have beaten all of his own championship opposition, only in a far more emphatic and exciting fashion.


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## CaskAle (Jul 7, 2015)

bballchump11 said:


> The aggressive Wladimir from the Mercer fight probably would have beaten Fury. I don't know why he doesn't turn that on when he needs to


That combined with what he learnt over the years yes

As it stands today, even with Fury or any other opponent on the ropes, he will throw one punch and then clinch. Either mentally or physically he cannot bring himself to throw more than 1 punch at a time now

I thought Banks was clueless but I've rewatched it and its exactly what he said: you need him on the ropes and you need to land 3 punches in a row
Needless to say in the 12th Wlad went out, landed a right hand with Fury on the ropes and then clinched

Its fucking abysmal


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## CaskAle (Jul 7, 2015)

I also think Vitali just imagines himself with in Wlads body with his skills from 10 years ago, and thinks about the amount of stuff he could destroy.

Then he just expects Wladimir to have the same mentality and walk out there and do the same


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Sweethome_Bama said:


> I agree, hell even the Wlad that lost against Lamon would have knocked Fury out.
> I don't know what happened yesterday, but it had nothing to do with his physical ability and seemed to have everything to do with not being able to lean on a smaller man.
> 
> Its crazy to me.
> like I said in the thread, this loss kills any chance of Wlad ever being remembers and discussed as a ATG HW champ along the lines of Ali and Louis or hell even fucking Lennox Lewis.


yeah most of his fights that I've seen have been his more recent ones. When I look back at him when he was younger, I get a little more appreciation for him because I see what he's capable of doing. I understand that he doesn't fight like that anymore because he's too vulnerable though and gases out.

You're right man. After a few rounds of nothing, why doesn't have at least make a little adjustment? He's very mentally weak imo.



dyna said:


> I don't think he has that state of mind anymore.
> Or maybe he's mentally shot, not shot enough that it affects his training but enough that it affects him during the fight and being unable to give it the full 100%.
> 
> And maybe the Fury fight is a little similar to the DaVarryl Williamson fight, Wlad won that fight (one judge and some people saw it differently).
> But Wlad looked very vulnerable during that fight, almost as if that accidental cut was actually a good thing for Wlad.


Yeah it's completely bizarre. He's fought timid all these years and won. But you're losing wide on all the cards. Turn it up!


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> He does though, very few HWs in history get past his jab or outjab him. I'm not a fan but he's incredibly effective despite being past prime for a few years, he's 39 now after all.
> 
> These things depend on criteria, in terms of longevity and dominance he's top 5, in terms of H2H he's top 5 imo, in terms of exciting he doesn't rate too highly. People overrate boxers from other eras who were limited or not that convincing.
> 
> ...


He's got such glaring weaknesses though


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> It's a funny thing actually, isn't it?
> 
> Wolodya had spent years rebuilding himself and changing his style but by the time he perfected it there were no sanders' around.
> 
> ...


The combination that dropped Mercer in the first round truly was a thing of beauty.

Wonder what Wlad could have been with Teddy Atlas, or Roach or maybe even Ulli Wegner.
But that's all just speculation that won't erase a title reign at times more boring than Ruiz-Oquendo.


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## CaskAle (Jul 7, 2015)

dyna said:


> The combination that dropped Mercer in the first round truly was a thing of beauty.


That was the last time Wlad slipped a jab and counter punched

Straight into 4 or 5 left hooks one after the other once he saw the opening

If that happened today, he would have use his foot speed to jump back and 10 seconds later there would be clinching.


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## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

CaskAle said:


> That was the last time Wlad slipped a jab and counter punched
> 
> Straight into 4 or 5 left hooks one after the other once he saw the opening
> 
> If that happened today, he would have use his foot speed to jump back and 10 seconds later there would be clinching.


Man Wlad feints to setup clinching opportunities.
Its pathetic.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> But that's all just speculation that won't erase a title reign at times more boring than Ruiz-Oquendo.


Oquendo - Ruiz is rated XXX in most countries.

Except Germany.


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Not that much, what other HW champion was fighting well at 39 ?

He needs this rematch though, and I think him as the challenger will benefit him in the mental aspect, he will open his game much more and we will see what we saw in that last round more... IÂ´m not so sure if heÂ´s physically that well though, sometimes he looks like he is in pain while throwing since the Povetkin fight I noticed that.


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## Strike (Jun 4, 2012)

dyna said:


> Who do you have in your top 10 if Wlad isn't in it?
> Please don't say Jack Johnson or Dempsey.


Well the 6-10 spots change at times but the top 5 never does. But the ten is basically...

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Tyson
9. Liston
10. Marciano


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## Strike (Jun 4, 2012)

dyna said:


> Also how is having your best wins over "small" heavyweights any worse than past great Marciano whose best wins were over "big" middleweights.


Well...because Rocky Marciano himself was a "big middleweight" if you want to call his best wins by that. Charles and Walcott were both bigger than Marciano and both much better fighters than Chris Byrd and much more rounded fighters than David Haye. Wlad beat Haye due to his size advantage and Haye fighting a cautious fight. If Haye had just gone for it...he might have been stopped but he would actually have had a great chance to win too. But yeah...Byrd is one of Wlad's top 3 wins. Do you have Byrd above Charles and Walcott in your all time rankings?


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Klitschko is clearly not a ATG HW. Great fighter for sure, perhaps Top 50 HW but he's in the worst era of HW's ever. His inability to do jack shit - literally jack shit - to a very average opponent (average at best) is telling about his real skills and strengths.

My guess? Wrestling and laying on your opponent only works when your opponent is dogshit like ~85%+ of his have been. Again it's not his fault, but it's how history will remember him.


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## Oli (Jun 6, 2013)

Hugely damaging. It exposes Wlad as the size bullying bum he really is.


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## til20 (Oct 2, 2013)

As someone who's always refused to place him in my top 10 pound for pound, last night was quite sweet, especially after having to witness the absurdity of so many people placing him as their number one pound for pound fighter after Mayweather retired. What a joke.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> He's got such glaring weaknesses though


Not really, he wouldn't go undefeated against all comers for 11 years if they were such glaring weaknesses. Every HW has weaknesses, even Ali struggled with a good left jab. I'd pick Waldo to beat Ali because I can't see Ali getting past the jab


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## KERRIGAN (Jul 25, 2012)

What the fuck is wrong with you people that rate Wlad over Vitali? :-(


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## Tuff Gong (May 22, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> Not really, he wouldn't go undefeated against all comers for 11 years if they were such glaring weaknesses. Every HW has weaknesses, even Ali struggled with a good left jab. I'd pick Waldo to beat Ali because I can't see Ali getting past the jab


:lol: What?!? We just saw an average fighter bamboozle Wlad with his movement - what do you think Ali would have done to him? You think he would stand there & let Wlad work him with his jab?


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Theres no way imo that you can rank Wlad above Johnson. They are similar fighters in many ways but at least the guys who were smaller than Johnson were ATGs. Wlads smaller opponents arent even HOFers.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

KERRIGAN said:


> What the fuck is wrong with you people that rate Wlad over Vitali? :-(


Wlad resume pisses all over Vitalis. Its not even close, Vitalis resume is shockingly bad tbh. He is a massive underachiever it terms of his greatness imo.

Of course Id pick Vitali to starch Wlad in a fight but in terms of who achieved more the younger brother far exceeds the older.

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## RDJ (Jun 27, 2012)

DOM5153 said:


> The problem many of us have is his style and more specifically his clinching is borderline illegal and I maintain that the Povetkin fight should be NC it got that ridiculous.


Not even borderline. A ref should warn, take away points and eventually DQ for that. It's weird how he got away with it for this long, and I agree on the Povetkin fight being bad enough to warrant a NC. He often didn't even punch in that one, just leaped straight for the grab.


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## KERRIGAN (Jul 25, 2012)

Chatty said:


> Wlad resume pisses all over Vitalis. Its not even close, Vitalis resume is shockingly bad tbh. He is a massive underachiever it terms of his greatness imo.
> 
> Of course Id pick Vitali to starch Wlad in a fight but in terms of who achieved more the younger brother far exceeds the older.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk


Wlad has more wins, only because Vitali had glass knees, but Vitali clearly fought enough guys to be in the conversation.

Not only did Vitali starch the guys who starched Wlad, he also destroyed the Sam Peter that knocked Wlad down a few times as well.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Tuff Gong said:


> :lol: What?!? We just saw an average fighter bamboozle Wlad with his movement - what do you think Ali would have done to him? You think he would stand there & let Wlad work him with his jab?


At the age of 39 against a 6'9 giant that's 7 inches taller than Ali. Should we judge Ali on the Holmes loss now? Styles make fights my friends and Ali may win I don't know but I think the style's all wrong for him. Watch Ali-Norton 1, 2 and 3, Ali v Young, Ali v Mildenberger to see what I mean.

I'd want Ali to win but look at the size difference










I suppose Ali at least has a great right counter


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

KERRIGAN said:


> Wlad has more wins, only because Vitali had glass knees, but Vitali clearly fought enough guys to be in the conversation.
> 
> Not only did Vitali starch the guys who starched Wlad, he also destroyed the Sam Peter that knocked Wlad down a few times as well.


Vitalis biggest achievement was getting stopped by Lennox Lewis :rofl I laugh but tbh its true, its how he is most remembered and most put it as his best performance. After that his best wins are Corrie Saunders, Herbie Hide and Tomasz Adamek, you can't realistically make any argument that Vitali ranks higher than Wlad other than head to head.


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## Mrboogie23 (Jun 4, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Vitalis biggest achievement was getting stopped by Lennox Lewis :rofl I laugh but tbh its true, its how he is most remembered and most put it as his best performance. After that his best wins are Corrie Saunders, Herbie Hide and Tomasz Adamek, you can't realistically make any argument that Vitali ranks higher than Wlad other than head to head.


True, but we all know Vitali beats the crap out of Wladimir head to head. Vitali knows it, Wladimir knows it, the whole world knows it.


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## nuclear (Jun 15, 2015)

> I still don't believe I actually lost. Man, I'm suffering.
> 
> - Klitschko (@Klitschko) November 30, 2015


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

KERRIGAN said:


> Wlad has more wins, only because Vitali had glass knees, but Vitali clearly fought enough guys to be in the conversation.
> 
> Not only did Vitali starch the guys who starched Wlad, he also destroyed the Sam Peter that knocked Wlad down a few times as well.


The Sam Peter that fought Vitali was less motivated and looked in a worse shape than against Wlad.
Also he's pretty much only fought come forward plodders after his return, Wlad has been tested against a variety while Vitali pretty much only fought 1 style.

Solis won the event.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Mrboogie23 said:


> True, but we all know Vitali beats the crap out of Wladimir head to head. Vitali knows it, Wladimir knows it, the whole world knows it.


I know but he has still achieved way less and can't really be seriously ranked over him other than head to head.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> The Sam Peter that fought Vitali was less motivated and looked in a worse shape than against Wlad.


Peter stopped being a remotely above-average fighter when he learned (sort of) how to box and tamed his aggression.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Peter stopped being a remotely above-average fighter when he learned (sort of) how to box and tamed his aggression.


Depending on the circumstances, against Toney I think the big difference between the 1st and 2nd fight was Peter using his boxing skills more in the 2nd. Or maybe the difference was that he actually trained for the 2nd fight.

Against McCline his old aggression may have served him better to prevent being knocked down by the big puncher.
I don't think he did too bad against Chambers in their glorified sparring session, Peter was just 20 pounds too heavy.


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## dawoodpatel123 (Feb 24, 2015)

Not a single Wlad fan stated before the fight that Wlad is over the hill - Yet all of a sudden after the loss he's somehow shot!

Fighters peak and lose steam at different ages. Wlad was fighting fit at 39, it was ONLY his legs that had gone. 

Why he couldn't pull the trigger? Since his three loses, he could never pull the trigger. Over matched opponents would hang in there for ages - Remember Eddie Chambers?

Wlad got exposed in this fight as pretty one dimensional. That's the most damning thing about this loss. 

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## dawoodpatel123 (Feb 24, 2015)

One thing I forgot to add, was I mentioned on ESB in the past that it's not Wlads fault the competition has been dire for so long (barring Haye and Povetkin who are B rate heavyweights at best), or the fact that for a long time, Number 1 and Number 2 (Vitali) have carved up opponents between them.

However, I did say how Wlad fares against the new batch (Price, back when he was an actual prospect, Fury, Joshua and Wilder) will determine a lot with his legacy.

All tall, rangy, and relatively skillful fighters - And besides Fury, all powerful too.

Since then, Wilder won a title - Call it paper, but it's the title Vitali held.

Price's career began and ended.

Joshua is on the rise.

And Fury is now Heavyweight champion of the world.

As for Wlad, he failed the first test against the only one with relatively little power, and the one everyone laughed at the most.

And whilst it doesn't detract from his achievements, it certainly detracts from his legacy - Especially if Fury doesn't go on to have a long reign.

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## Mrboogie23 (Jun 4, 2013)

dawoodpatel123 said:


> One thing I forgot to add, was I mentioned on ESB in the past that it's not Wlads fault the competition has been dire for so long (barring Haye and Povetkin who are B rate heavyweights at best), or the fact that for a long time, Number 1 and Number 2 (Vitali) have carved up opponents between them.
> 
> However, I did say how Wlad fares against the new batch (Price, back when he was an actual prospect, Fury, Joshua and Wilder) will determine a lot with his legacy.
> 
> ...


All valid points


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> Depending on the circumstances, against Toney I think the big difference between the 1st and 2nd fight was Peter using his boxing skills more in the 2nd. Or maybe the difference was that he actually trained for the 2nd fight.


Or Toney was 137 years old and aging rapidly.

Peter was never more dangerous/higher rated than when he fought the still shell shocked Wova who was one step away from bolivion.
He blew his chance.
And opened the gates of hell.
10 years.
10 years of unbearable boredom, K-2 facts and MMA's rise.

All because one guy didnt learn to throw a right hand properly.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> Not really, he wouldn't go undefeated against all comers for 11 years if they were such glaring weaknesses. Every HW has weaknesses, even Ali struggled with a good left jab. I'd pick Waldo to beat Ali because I can't see Ali getting past the jab


He covers them up illegally, there's something wrong when there are more clinches than punches. Who knows how some of those fights would have gone if he couldn't grab at will...


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)




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## Tuff Gong (May 22, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> At the age of 39 against a 6'9 giant that's 7 inches taller than Ali. Should we judge Ali on the Holmes loss now? Styles make fights my friends and Ali may win I don't know but I think the style's all wrong for him. Watch Ali-Norton 1, 2 and 3, Ali v Young, Ali v Mildenberger to see what I mean.
> 
> I'd want Ali to win but look at the size difference
> 
> ...


Wait a minute, are you talking about a 39 year old Ali vs Klitschko or a 39 year old Ali vs Fury? Because Klitschko isn't 6' 9", he's 6' 6".


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## Jack (Jul 29, 2012)

It's a massive blow to his legacy and rules out any question of him being a top 10 ATG. Some could say that he was unlucky to be around at a time without any real quality opposition but the fact is, previous heavyweights who were around during similarly weak eras beat every one of those poor opponents whereas Wlad has lost four times, three notably, and not one of those opponents who beat him were anything special. Sanders, Brewster and Fury are not elite heavyweights by any means. For all the praise that Fury is getting, it's not long ago that Cunningham was outboxing him and knocked him on his arse, so it's not like Fury is some giant phenom, he's an average fighter who was able to disrupt and outbox Wlad with very simple movement.

Head to head, it hurts him too. People have long talked about how well he'd do against elite heavyweights of the past but he's shown a poor enough chin to be blown out by Sanders and he was outboxed by Tyson Fury, an awkward, rangey boxer with limited technical ability.The idea that Fury could do something Ali couldn't because he's taller and rangier than Ali is just nonsense. Why are boxing fans so desperate to exaggerate the importance of size? Fury didn't beat Ali because he of his size, he won because of his feints, his head movement and his unpredictability, not because he stuck Wlad on the end of a jab all night. Any boxing fan who watches that fight and sees two skilled, elite level heavyweights needs to follow a different sport because it was a pathetic display. You can't really fault Fury because he knew what he was doing would win him the fight and he stuck to that well but he didn't show brilliance, and Wlad? I mentioned this in another thread but has a lineal, recognised, undisputed champion ever given his belts away in such a tame, pitiful manner? He didn't throw any shots until the 12th round, which, by the way, is the only round he had success in but the rest, he was happy to sit idly by and lose round after round because he didn't want to engage with a non-punching, technically awkward opponent in Fury. 

Whether you're judging resume or head to head, Wlad is not a top 15 fighter and probably deserves to be around 20. The sad thing about his career is that I have no doubt his ability could have done more for him but early on in his career, he was too reckless, and later on in his career, he was too defensive and whilst you can point to the victories he's had, he really shouldn't have any losses because he's better than those who beat him. He won't go down as a beloved heavyweight champion either, due to dire bouts like the Ibragimov one. Vitali ranks higher, head to head and in terms of his resume, and whilst he faced lesser opposition than Wlad, he deserves to rank higher because he was never outboxed or knocked out by average fighters.

I can't remember being as disappointed in a career than Wlad's. Those who read my posts on ESB years and years ago will know that I used to be a big fan of his, full of praise for his ability and attitude. I still respect him but he could have been so much more. He could have been a great fighter but throwing away a fight because you're scared of Tyson Fury is just pathetic. The pre-fight antics, like the additional foam in the mat, the wrong gloves, the scales etc. and also the headbutts in the fight, made me lose some respect for him though. He blatantly headbutted Fury and deserved to have points taken off for it, yet when Fury had his arms behind his back, encouraging Wlad to come in, he did nothing. That says it all about his woeful, embarrassing and heartless, cowardly performance.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> At the age of 39 against a 6'9 giant that's 7 inches taller than Ali. Should we judge Ali on the Holmes loss now? Styles make fights my friends and Ali may win I don't know but I think the style's all wrong for him. Watch Ali-Norton 1, 2 and 3, Ali v Young, Ali v Mildenberger to see what I mean.
> 
> I'd want Ali to win but look at the size difference
> 
> ...


Ali is shriveled at this point too. Trust me, guy, Ali whoops Wlad big time.


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> He covers them up illegally, there's something wrong when there are more clinches than punches. Who knows how some of those fights would have gone if he couldn't grab at will...


Clinching isn't illegal and Ali used to clinch as badly as Wlad in his 30s too. In truth Wlad should have been taught to throw uppercuts to the head and body more inside, which he would of been good at, it's lazy boxing training only asking him to clinch


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Tuff Gong said:


> Wait a minute, are you talking about a 39 year old Ali vs Klitschko or a 39 year old Ali vs Fury? Because Klitschko isn't 6' 9", he's 6' 6".


I'm talking about the mechanics of a 7 inch difference when boxing a 6'2 man and boxing a 6'9 man.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Jack said:


> It's a massive blow to his legacy and rules out any question of him being a top 10 ATG. Some could say that he was unlucky to be around at a time without any real quality opposition but the fact is, previous heavyweights who were around during similarly weak eras beat every one of those poor opponents whereas Wlad has lost four times, three notably, and not one of those opponents who beat him were anything special. Sanders, Brewster and Fury are not elite heavyweights by any means. For all the praise that Fury is getting, it's not long ago that Cunningham was outboxing him and knocked him on his arse, so it's not like Fury is some giant phenom, he's an average fighter who was able to disrupt and outbox Wlad with very simple movement.
> 
> Head to head, it hurts him too. People have long talked about how well he'd do against elite heavyweights of the past but he's shown a poor enough chin to be blown out by Sanders and he was outboxed by Tyson Fury, an awkward, rangey boxer with limited technical ability.The idea that Fury could do something Ali couldn't because he's taller and rangier than Ali is just nonsense. Why are boxing fans so desperate to exaggerate the importance of size? Fury didn't beat Ali because he of his size, he won because of his feints, his head movement and his unpredictability, not because he stuck Wlad on the end of a jab all night. Any boxing fan who watches that fight and sees two skilled, elite level heavyweights needs to follow a different sport because it was a pathetic display. You can't really fault Fury because he knew what he was doing would win him the fight and he stuck to that well but he didn't show brilliance, and Wlad? I mentioned this in another thread but has a lineal, recognised, undisputed champion ever given his belts away in such a tame, pitiful manner? He didn't throw any shots until the 12th round, which, by the way, is the only round he had success in but the rest, he was happy to sit idly by and lose round after round because he didn't want to engage with a non-punching, technically awkward opponent in Fury.
> 
> ...


Thats not true at all. Wladimirs resume is far better than Vitali's, its laughable to suggest otherwise:

Wlads - Haye, Povetkin, Chagaev, Byrd x2, Peter x2, Thompson x2, Mercer, Ibragimov, Brewster, Botha, Rahman, Chambers, Wach, Pulev, Jennings.

Vitali - Saunders, Arreola, Adamek, Chisora, Hide, Peters, Charr, Briggs, Johnson, Willams, Bean.

Its not even close. Wladimir reigned for ten years unbeaten racking up 20 defences against a range of styles and beat two guys who were meant to be the next coming of the division. Vitali's best reign was a four year period where he beat up a load of C-level fighters, hell a 40 year old Shannon briggs was one of his greatest victories, you can argue Vaughn Bean is in his top ten. I like Vitali, one a head to head scale he is a great fighter but he massively underacieved and his resume is laughable for a guy who should have done more. You can't even argue for Vitali to be int he top 15 on his resume alone, its so poor.


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## Tuff Gong (May 22, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> I'm talking about the mechanics of a 7 inch difference when boxing a 6'2 man and boxing a 6'9 man.


Right, so you're not talking about Ali vs Klitschko then, because Ali was 6'3" & Klitschko is 6'6".

Prime for prime Ali smashes Klitschko 10 times out of 10.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Tuff Gong said:


> Right, so you're not talking about Ali vs Klitschko then, because Ali was 6'3" & Klitschko is 6'6".
> 
> Prime for prime Ali smashes Klitschko 10 times out of 10.


How do you see Ali going to the head, genuine question, he almost never went to the body


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Tuff Gong said:


> Right, so you're not talking about Ali vs Klitschko then, because Ali was 6'3" & Klitschko is 6'6".
> 
> Prime for prime Ali smashes Klitschko 10 times out of 10.


I was referring to the relative challenge in facing Ali and Fury and why fighting Fury is very different to fighting Ali, there's 7 inches or so between them. Ali is more like 6'2.

Ali usually had advantages in height and reach, except against Bugner, Foreman and Terrel. And none of those are as big as Wlad or can jab like Wlad. The jab is king.

How can Ali be first as he liked to be? He'd have to continually be on the front foot closing the gap overcoming reach and height disadvantages, it's a tricky stylistic fight for him on that basis.


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## DOM5153 (May 16, 2013)

RDJ said:


> Not even borderline. A ref should warn, take away points and eventually DQ for that. It's weird how he got away with it for this long, and I agree on the Povetkin fight being bad enough to warrant a NC. He often didn't even punch in that one, just leaped straight for the grab.


A couple of gifs from that fight of Wlad feinting to punch and then stepping forward and clinching, shocking fight.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Wlad-Ali would just be one man pulling the others neck and the other desperately leaning on the other.
Both men die after the ring gets stormed by countless conservative Christians protesting against man on man love on national television.


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## sosolid4u09 (Jan 28, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Thats not true at all. Wladimirs resume is far better than Vitali's, its laughable to suggest otherwise:
> 
> Wlads - Haye, Povetkin, Chagaev, Byrd x2, Peter x2, Thompson x2, Mercer, Ibragimov, Brewster, Botha, Rahman, Chambers, Wach, Pulev, Jennings.
> 
> ...


Resumes dont mean much if they've been against bumms. Beating 20 average fighters is better than beating 10 average fighters but IMO not enough to cancel out the losses and the h2h when going up against Vitali.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

sosolid4u09 said:


> Resumes dont mean much if they've been against bumms. Beating 20 average fighters is better than beating 10 average fighters but IMO not enough to cancel out the losses and the h2h when going up against Vitali.


Well they both avenged each others losses. Vitali lost his two bggest fights yet Wladimir won his two biggest fights which makes a difference. Wladimirs opponents are a significantly higher level than most of Vitalis as well, it is a weak era but even then you have to ask why Vitalis resume is so much weaker than Wlads when he could have and should have fought better?

Also head to head I agree Vitali would smash Wladimir but you get zero points for fantasy fights. Wladimir dealt with a more diverse range of styles than Vitali as well.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 6, 2013)

Why do people mention Povetkin as a win for Wlad? Did these people saw the "fight"?


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

LuckyLuke said:


> Why do people mention Povetkin as a win for Wlad? Did these people saw the "fight"?


As awful as it was he won the fight, you can argue about the fouling and that is fair but still, he did win it. There should have been a rematch announced straight away and the ref should have been sacked but thats the way it is. We don't take away Ali-Frazier II because Ali fouled his way all the way through the fight do we?


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## Jack (Jul 29, 2012)

Chatty said:


> Thats not true at all. Wladimirs resume is far better than Vitali's, its laughable to suggest otherwise:
> 
> Wlads - Haye, Povetkin, Chagaev, Byrd x2, Peter x2, Thompson x2, Mercer, Ibragimov, Brewster, Botha, Rahman, Chambers, Wach, Pulev, Jennings.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that Wlad has the better wins but he has catastrophic losses too whereas Vitali doesn't. The losses to Byrd and Lewis are both excusable because of the injuries that forced them and, besides, those two were very good fighters anyway. Vitali has never lost to a fighter as average as Fury, Sanders or Brewster, so whilst Wlad does have the better wins, his losses override them and mean he deserves to be ranked behind Vitali.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Jack said:


> I don't disagree that Wlad has the better wins but he has catastrophic losses too whereas Vitali doesn't. The losses to Byrd and Lewis are both excusable because of the injuries that forced them and, besides, those two were very good fighters anyway. Vitali has never lost to a fighter as average as Fury, Sanders or Brewster, so whilst Wlad does have the better wins, his losses override them and mean he deserves to be ranked behind Vitali.


I don't look too heavily on losses, Pacquaio has a loss to a journeyman, a KO at that at it doesn't take away from his resume. Sometimes boxers need to adapt and thats what Wlad did after Brewster and became a better fighter for it. I would elave Fury out of the mix for now, he's only 27 and just ascended to top spot, if he has a good run I don't think you'll be able to call him average either. Byrd wasn't all that great - decent fighter but even with the injury Wlad battered Btyrd way easier than Vitali was because sometimes style comes into play.

Vitali had more potential that Wladimir but failed to get the best out of it and due to that he isn't as great.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 6, 2013)

Chatty said:


> As awful as it was he won the fight, you can argue about the fouling and that is fair but still, he did win it. There should have been a rematch announced straight away and the ref should have been sacked but thats the way it is. We don't take away Ali-Frazier II because Ali fouled his way all the way through the fight do we?


The record says yes. And there is always a subjective part in boxing but for me there is no doubt that Wladimir should have been disqualified for fouling. So for me it is a robbery. And I dont count robberies.

The same as if AA would have won by TKO over Dirrell. On paper AA would have won but it was a clear disqualification loss.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

LuckyLuke said:


> The record says yes. And there is always a subjective part in boxing but for me there is no doubt that Wladimir should have been disqualified for fouling. So for me it is a robbery. And I dont count robberies.
> 
> The same as if AA would have won by TKO over Dirrell. On paper AA would have won but it was a clear disqualification loss.


Ali pretty much held Fraziers head down all fight in the second, it was as bad as Wlads fouling imo.


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## RDJ (Jun 27, 2012)

I think Klitschko Povetkin was a few levels worse than Ali Frazier II. Unfortunately no action was taken and it counts as a W for Wlad.


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## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

RDJ said:


> I think Klitschko Povetkin was a few levels worse than Ali Frazier II. Unfortunately no action was taken and it counts as a W for Wlad.


ONly fight as dirty as Klits v Povetkin was Fury v Cunningham.
Fury would literally go in with his hands up and jump on top and lean on Steve.


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## LuckyLuke (Jun 6, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Ali pretty much held Fraziers head down all fight in the second, it was as bad as Wlads fouling imo.


This fight gets brought up everytime when people talk about Povetkin vs Wladimir.
For me this fight was not anywhere near as bad as Povetkin vs Wladimir.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> The jab is king.


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## D-U-D-E (Jul 31, 2013)

dyna said:


>


You have to give him his props, the old master was right :deal


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