# Pretty Boy Floyd vs other greats from 130-140



## Concrete (Oct 5, 2013)

Wilfred Benitez
Medrick Taylor
Kosta Tzyu
Aron Pryor
Julio Cesar Chavez
Manny Pacquiao
Azumah Nelson
Alexis Arguello
Roberto Duran
Pernell Whitaker

Who would he beat and who would he lose to? What would his record be out of the 11 boxers named(ex:5-5)


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

I believe he could beat them all...

but I don't know the out comes of Arguello, Pryor & Whitaker fight....the rest easy work including JCC snr UD


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## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

Dipset said:


> I believe he could beat them all...
> 
> but I don't know the out comes of Arguello, Pryor & Whitaker fight....the rest easy work including JCC snr UD


Mayweather's a bad matchup for Arguello. Arguello would have _far_ less success than Chavez.

A uber-skilled animalistic Duran in no way, shape, or form would be easy work. That's a ridiculous assertion. And we've never seen Mayweather in against such a fine boxing technician with incredible defense such as Benitez.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dipset said:


> I believe he could beat them all...
> 
> but I don't know the out comes of Arguello, Pryor & Whitaker fight....the rest easy work including JCC snr UD


What a stupid thing to say. Floyd would never make easy work out of JCC or Duran. as a matter of fact those guys would likely outwork & beat Mayweather up on the inside. Benitez would be an interesting chess match that I can't predict, would be very close. I'd pick Whitaker to beat Floyd though. Whitaker damn near matches Floyd in every category except IMO Whitaker throws better combinations and hits harder.

Floyd's a bad style for Arguello, and I think he'd beat Arguello handily. He'd take away his right cross and then work his way from there. Outside of a hail mary shot Floyd should outbox him over 12 rounds.

Meldrick Taylor would have a legitimate shot, it depends if he just goes full retard and wastes his stamina early with those crazy flurries or if he is more conservative. He has the speed and combination punching to make things tough for Floyd early. He'd pressure Floyd and do all the right things early. the only thing is his power wasn't elite, and he didn't have great defense so Floyd would certainly counter punch when appropriate. That's an interesting fight.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

JMP said:


> Mayweather's a bad matchup for Arguello. Arguello would have _far_ less success than Chavez.
> 
> A uber-skilled animalistic Duran in no way, shape, or form would be easy work. That's a ridiculous assertion. And we've never seen Mayweather in against such a fine boxing technician with incredible defense such as Benitez.


No disrespect...but maybe it would depend on when they fought...Duran is the same man that got frustrated and quit during a fight, I cannot over looked this Mayweather is a far more skilled technician than SRL IMO.

Furthermore, Mayweather can adapt to the opponent in front of him, Duran failed to do this in his 2nd fight with SRL.
This is my methodology for picking Mayweather.

P.S. good post.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> What a stupid thing to say. Floyd would never make easy work out of JCC or Duran. as a matter of fact those guys would likely outwork & beat Mayweather up on the inside. Benitez would be an interesting chess match that I can't predict, would be very close. I'd pick Whitaker to beat Floyd though. Whitaker damn near matches Floyd in every category except IMO Whitaker throws better combinations and hits harder.
> 
> Floyd's a bad style for Arguello, and I think he'd beat Arguello handily. He'd take away his right cross and then work his way from there. Outside of a hail mary shot Floyd should outbox him over 12 rounds.
> 
> Meldrick Taylor would have a legitimate shot, it depends if he just goes full retard and wastes his stamina early with those crazy flurries or if he is more conservative. He has the speed and combination punching to make things tough for Floyd early. He'd pressure Floyd and do all the right things early. the only thing is his power wasn't elite, and he didn't have great defense so Floyd would certainly counter punch when appropriate. That's an interesting fight.


You're entitled to your subjective opinion as am I. There is no reason to call someone stupid just because I disagree with your point. Please state your points in a more dignified fashion in future.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Threads like these should not be posted. The majority of posters do not have a decent grasp on boxing history. Dipset being an obvious example.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Threads like these should not be posted. The majority of posters do not have a decent grasp on boxing history. Dipset being an obvious example.


Clearly boxing threads are not about giving you opinion or having debate. When I see comments like yours I feel embarrassed.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dipset said:


> You're entitled to your subjective opinion as am I. There is no reason to call someone stupid just because I disagree with your point. Please state your points in a more dignified fashion in future.


Well to be fair i didn't call you stupid, but what you SAID was flat out stupid. calling Chavez sr, Duran, Benitez, and Taylor easy fights for Floyd? Seriously?


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Well to be fair i didn't call you stupid, but what you SAID was flat out stupid. calling Chavez sr, Duran, Benitez, and Taylor easy fights for Floyd? Seriously?


Tell me something, what would YOU describe as easy work? give me a fight example.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dipset said:


> Tell me something, what would YOU describe as easy work? give me a fight example.


Uh, ok? Floyd vs Genaro Hernandez was pretty easy for Floyd. Ike Quartey vs Park was easy for Quartey.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Uh, ok? Floyd vs Genaro Hernandez was pretty easy for Floyd. Ike Quartey vs Park was easy for Quartey.


Ok I don't think any of the fights would be like FM vs GH at all. When I say easy work I talking more may-Judah or Cotto-Margo 2. Competitive at points but still clear who won. 8-4 kind of fights.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Concrete said:


> Wilfred Benitez
> Medrick Taylor
> Kosta Tzyu
> Aron Pryor
> ...


Beats Benitez, Taylor, Tszyu, emmanuel, and Nelson

Pryor and Cesar would make him work harder than usual. Arguello could be tricky.

Robearto(e) and Pernell both beat him at least once if they did trilogies with him


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dipset said:


> Ok I don't think any of the fights would be like FM vs GH at all. When I say easy work I talking more may-Judah or Cotto-Margo 2. Competitive at points but still clear who won. 8-4 kind of fights.


The point still stands, Chavez sr, Duran, Benitez, and Taylor are not easy fights for Floyd. Fuck the Judah example. Those fights would look nothing like the Judah fight.

Chavez would outwork him and rip him apart at the inside, same with Duran except Duran almost has Floyd beat in every category. Benitez is a cagey technician that Floyd's never fought before which is why I don't get why you would call it an easy fight. That fight would be a very close chess match. Taylor is fast enough, gutsy enough, and tough enough to give Floyd hard work over 12 rounds, even if he doesn't win. He's got the workrate and the ATG punching speed @ 140 to make it a tough fight for Floyd.

There's no way he beats Duran 8-4, based on what? There would be too many instances in the fight where Duran would get inside and Floyd wouldn't be able to just shell up and avoid everything. It's the same deal with Chavez. these guys are SAVAGES on the inside and there would be too many instances where Floyd would get caught up on the inside.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> The point still stands, Chavez sr, Duran, Benitez, and Taylor are not easy fights for Floyd. Fuck the Judah example. Those fights would look nothing like the Judah fight.
> 
> Chavez would outwork him and rip him apart at the inside, same with Duran except Duran almost has Floyd beat in every category. Benitez is a cagey technician that Floyd's never fought before which is why I don't get why you would call it an easy fight. That fight would be a very close chess match. Taylor is fast enough, gutsy enough, and tough enough to give Floyd hard work over 12 rounds, even if he doesn't win. He's got the workrate and the ATG punching speed @ 140 to make it a tough fight for Floyd.
> 
> There's no way he beats Duran 8-4, based on what? There would be too many instances in the fight where Duran would get inside and Floyd wouldn't be able to just shell up and avoid everything. It's the same deal with Chavez. these guys are SAVAGES on the inside and there would be too many instances where Floyd would get caught up on the inside.


You know the funny thing about imaginary fights....everyone is always sure in their mind how it would go....but we will never know....I have watched Mayweather enough to feel confident that he would dispatch with the named fighters above.

However, I clearly see that you have a strong conviction about these fighters being clearly above Floyd Mayweather...so I think we should just agree to disagree.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Duran is levels above Floyd.

He even has a better defence.

It's not 'imaginary fights'. It's clear to see from the footage.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Duran is levels above Floyd.
> 
> He even has a better defence.
> 
> It's not 'imaginary fights'. It's clear to see from the footage.


No mas


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Dipset said:


> No mas


You sure told me.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You sure told me.


:thumbsup


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dipset said:


> However, I clearly see that you have a strong conviction about these fighters being clearly above Floyd Mayweather...so I think we should just agree to disagree.


Again that's a stupid thing to say, Floyd is definitely better than Taylor overall. I don't think anyone will say meldrick Taylor is actually greater than Floyd. Taylor possesses a style that would give Mayweather fits, he had incredible talent and he was a really durable fighter.

I think Benitez matches him in ability. Mayweather has the better resume even though Benitez has quite a few quality wins on his record. Chavez Sr & Duran are just flat out better though. Better resumes & they definitely look better on film if you compare all of them prime for prime. Stylistically they are just bad fights for Floyd. Smart, really skilled inside pressure fighters that would give Floyd hell for all 12 rounds. Floyd is outgunned against these guys.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Again that's a stupid thing to say, Floyd is definitely better than Taylor overall. I don't think anyone will say meldrick Taylor is actually greater than Floyd. Taylor possesses a style that would give Mayweather fits, he had incredible talent and he was a really durable fighter.
> 
> I think Benitez matches him in ability. Mayweather has the better resume even though Benitez has quite a few quality wins on his record. Chavez Sr & Duran are just flat out better though. Better resumes & they definitely look better on film if you compare all of them prime for prime. Stylistically they are just bad fights for Floyd. Smart, really skilled inside pressure fighters that would give Floyd hell for all 12 rounds. Floyd is outgunned against these guys.


What was stupid this time?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dipset said:


> What was stupid this time?





Dipset said:


> However, I clearly see that you have a strong conviction about these fighters being clearly above Floyd Mayweather.


That was. Chavez & Duran are the only ones who are above Floyd. Not that I implied that.


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> That was. Chavez & Duran are the only ones who are above Floyd. Not that I implied that.


Well it was not stupid, it was a negligible human error. But I suppose you don't make mistakes.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Wilfred Benitez - W
Medrick Taylor - W
Kosta Tzyu - W
Aron Pryor - L
Julio Cesar Chavez - L
Manny Pacquiao - W
Azumah Nelson - W
Alexis Arguello - W
Roberto Duran - L
Pernell Whitaker - L

Although tbh these are all spurious picks as he hasn't fought many of the styles he'd be up against here. I mean when has he ever fought someone like Benitez?


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

hasnt even fought manny pacquiao, the other great of this era. how the fuck is anybody suppose to know how he'd do against the greats of the past


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> hasnt even fought manny pacquiao, the other great of this era. how the fuck is anybody suppose to know how he'd do against the greats of the past


This.:deal


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

What? Im saying there is no way to gauge or compare him to them because hes never been in with the elite of his era. The fighters on that list did.


Dipset said:


> This.:deal


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Dipset said:


> This.:deal


:lol:


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Luf said:


> Wilfred Benitez - W
> Medrick Taylor - W
> Kosta Tzyu - W
> Aron Pryor - L
> ...


Wilfred Benitez - W
Medrick Taylor - W
Kosta Tzyu - W
*Aron Pryor - W
Julio Cesar Chavez - W*
Manny Pacquiao - W
Azumah Nelson - W
Alexis Arguello - W
Roberto Duran - L
Pernell Whitaker - L


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> :lol:


What is funny?
I agree we will never know...unless you and Dr Emmett Brown get go back and bring Duran to the years when Floyd was at 130 lbs.


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

Dipset said:


> No mas


Painfully ignorant response


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

Vano-irons said:


> Painfully ignorant response


Yet you cannot dispute...how bad for you...


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## Vano-irons (Jun 6, 2012)

Dipset said:


> Yet you cannot dispute...how bad for you...


To be honest I couldn't be bothered to waste the engery schooling you on Duran's career. It wasn't me who sumed the guy up in two words that he actually didn't say


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## Dipset (Jun 9, 2013)

Vano-irons said:


> To be honest I couldn't be bothered to waste the engery schooling you on Duran's career. It wasn't me who sumed the guy up in two words that he actually didn't say


All that rhetoric, yet we arrive at the same destination....no mas.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Dipset said:


> What is funny?
> I agree we will never know...unless you and Dr Emmett Brown get go back and bring Duran to the years when Floyd was at 130 lbs.


What we do know is that Duran beat far betyer fighters, displayed more ability and is the far greater fighter.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

It's really hard for me to decisively pick anyone against Floyd but here goes nothing:



Concrete said:


> Wilfred Benitez


Floyd by competitive decision. (Wouldn't be surprised at the opposite though).



Concrete said:


> Medrick Taylor


Might actually favor Taylor here.



Concrete said:


> Kosta Tzyu


Floyd by decision or late stoppage.



Concrete said:


> Aron Pryor


Pryor by decision.



Concrete said:


> Julio Cesar Chavez


Toss-up.



Concrete said:


> Manny Pacquiao


Toss-up.



Concrete said:


> Azumah Nelson


Floyd by decision.



Concrete said:


> Alexis Arguello


Haven't studied Arguello as much as I'd like, but Floyd by decision.



Concrete said:


> Roberto Duran


Duran by decision.



Concrete said:


> Pernell Whitaker


Whitaker by competitive but clear decision.



Concrete said:


> Who would he beat and who would he lose to? What would his record be out of the 11 boxers named(ex:5-5)


Assuming my toss-ups are draws, 4-4-2 (10 fighters named). Could be 6-4 or 4-6 either way or 5-5.

Duran and Whitaker are tough stylistic challenges and some of the best operators every seen at Lightweight, extremely complete, and great ring generals. Duran would far outperform the aggressors Floyd has faced, and Whitaker would take Floyd out of his comfort zone and make him lead, denying him very many opportunities to counter.

Taylor and Pryor, while not as accomplished or skilled as Floyd, present problems of sheer volume and physicality. The effort Floyd had to put in against Castillo and Augustus makes me think that it would be a difficult task for him to out-maneuver such quick high-volume fighters. Even Hatton had Floyd fighting his fight (and out-doing him of course, which wouldn't be the case here.) People tend to forget Floyd peaked defensively at 147.

Chavez is one of the best pressure fighters around the weight, but the size difference, Floyd's speed, and Chavez's conventional technique would work against him IMO. At 135 I might favor Chavez (if he can catch up to Camacho he can catch Floyd, and grind him out), but at 140 I think Floyd is too complete. Good movement, a more solid guard, very quick offense, a complete punch selection, and Chavez's style is already more of a slow-starting mounting pressure, which only got slower at 140, which would give Floyd more opportunities to fight at range and avoid getting figured out and ground out up close.

Manny is also someone I always gave a live shot at beating Floyd. He has a missile of a left hand that packs a punch that fits neatly in between Floyd's shell guard and the footwork to propel him to the proper angle at the drop of a hat. Floyd is by far more versatile and familiar with making vital adjustments, but his very few bad habits (oversensitivity to feints, backing up in straight lines, getting caught leaning on the back foot, throwing the left hand below shoulder level, failing to establish lead foot positioning against left-hand dominant southpaws) seem like they lend themselves to someone as gifted and mobile and unorthodox as Manny being able to steal rounds. The right hand, just like the left hand, won't just be there, it has to be set up, and Pac's use of angles (along with volume that impresses the judges) might give him the edge in a competitive match. They were both quite fast at the lower weights. 140 would be the most complete version of either below 147.

I think Floyd outboxes Tzyu at range, and doesn't give him avenues for his accuracy. I'm sure he'll get popped good once or twice, but it won't be there after that and Floyd will have his way.

I think Floyd is equally as skilled as Benitez, if not more, and is more athletically gifted. I think he'd beat him to the punch consistently and time the better counters, assuming Benitez didn't fool him into leading for much of the fight to his detriment.

Arguello's height works against him, as he wasn't the most patient boxer-puncher and lacks the fluidity of upper body to escape Floyd's offense as he skirts around on the back-foot. Floyd from the Corrales fight would be too quick for him.

Nelson would be a hard task as he could be very awkward, but he's just a bit too wide and forward. Even if Floyd gets roughed up against the ropes after being tricked up, he'll be able to land the cleaner shots over 12.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I don't see Meldrick Taylor as having much to bother Floyd with at all.

Arguello is probably my favourite fighter ever but Floyd is stylistic kryptonite for Alexis. 

Pryor Vs Floyd would be very close but Pryors volume should make him the slight favourite. 

Floyd Vs Benitez would be a stinker. Close fight. Probably Floyd close decision due to higher offensive accuracy and more eye catching output.

Nelson put on some real stinkers. At his best he was a jack of all trades master of none. Good jab, proficient defence against (some) come forward fighters and very strong and pretty powerful. Decision for Floyd though Nelson would make him work for it.

Whitaker would jab Floyds head off. 

Duran would batter Floyd. His feints would split Floyds defence and his accurate right hand counter would find its home. Duran is better at everything except Floyd has a speed advantage.

Floyd neautralises Tszyus right hand and shuts him down. If he tries he can stop Tszyu.

Chavez beats Floyd by competitive decision. Too varied, he'd mix his offence up and take Floyd into deep water. Floyd wouldn't drown but he isn't hurting JCC and he'll struggle to stifle him or get much offence going. Look at the combos Meldrick had to put together to win enough rounds and look at the damage he took getting into the lead.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

@Bogotazo Camacho was well past it when Chavez fought him. I wouldn't say JCC was that conventional either, his blend of offence is very rarely seen.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> @Bogotazo Camacho was well past it when Chavez fought him. I wouldn't say JCC was that conventional either, his blend of offence is very rarely seen.


Yeah Camacho wasn't the same but he was a much more active mover than Floyd. I get what you mean, Chavez's combination sequences were anything but conventional, but the trajectory wasn't as awkward as other fighters. His quickness at 135 might have me favor Chavez over Floyd, but not at 140.

Did you think the rest of it was fair?

EDIT: Just saw we're not so far apart at all :cheers


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah Camacho wasn't the same but he was a much more active mover than Floyd. I get what you mean, Chavez's combination sequences were anything but conventional, but the trajectory wasn't as awkward as other fighters. His quickness at 135 might have me favor Chavez over Floyd, but not at 140.
> 
> Did you think the rest of it was fair?
> 
> EDIT: Just saw we're not so far apart at all :cheers


JCC is like Castillo + Jesus Chavez x10. Floyd will have to show more than he ever has before and I don't think he's gonna find it easy.

Yeah, we ain't far apart....and some people think I underrate Floyd :-(


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> JCC is like Castillo + Jesus Chavez x10. Floyd will have to show more than he ever has before and I don't think he's gonna find it easy.
> 
> Yeah, we ain't far apart....and some people think I underrate Floyd :-(


I guess that's why I called it 50-50. Chavez at 135 would far outdo Castillo and Chavez, but at 140 Floyd is more complete and Chavez a bit slower.

Well you're not alone there :lol:


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

To elaborate a bit more on Meldrick-Floyd: Taylors handspeed will cause Floyd problems but he wasn't the smartest of fighters, and he wasn't a massive puncher, so Floyd will have the opportunity to make an adjustment, keep Taylor from getting too close and lowering his output, and then land the cleaner blows down the stretch. 

They've both got quick hands but if Floyd can lessen Taylors opportunities to put combinations together it'll be Floyds speed that'll be more telling. 

Despite having Benton in his corner, Floyd has the far superior defence to Meldrick. 

To all the Flomos on here, watch some George Benton and come to the realisation that Floyd didn't invent the shoulder roll or the 'pull counter'.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

6-3-1


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

volume has never been a prob for Floyd

the lack of volume is always a prob for his opponents


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I guess that's why I called it 50-50. Chavez at 135 would far outdo Castillo and Chavez, but at 140 Floyd is more complete and Chavez a bit slower.
> 
> Well you're not alone there :lol:


Chavez was a bit slower but I think he was one of the greatest light welters of all time. His opposition there wasn't always all that, but the Chavez of the Taylor fight would still have the timing to keep Floyds output down and do the better work.

Taylor had to put in a career best showing (compare that fight to Meldrick Vs Davis, a past his best Davis who was an unreliable pro at best) and how great he looked against JCC.

And he still couldn't hold him off.

Of course Floyd has the superior defence but I'm very much of the opinion that his defence wouldn't look so infallible should he take on one of the greatest offensive fighters of all time.

Chavez via decision

At welterweight Floyd would win. There, Chavez looked lethargic.

And the 145lb catch weight would suit Floyd :yep


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Chavez was a bit slower but I think he was one of the greatest light welters of all time. His opposition there wasn't always all that, but the Chavez of the Taylor fight would still have the timing to keep Floyds output down and do the better work.
> 
> Taylor had to put in a career best showing (compare that fight to Meldrick Vs Davis, a past his best Davis who was an unreliable pro at best) and how great he looked against JCC.
> 
> ...


It's the footspeed which worries me for Chavez at 140. Floyd's jab to the body and lead rights over the top before moving again would be the cleanest blows round after round, IMO. But, Floyd is no stranger to being cornered, and Chavez was still a force to be reckoned with at 140.

Taylor I see posing problems by fooling the judges. Floyd might land the cleaner blows, but he has to deal with a fighter throwing 5-6 back at him. And I'd consider Taylor's power respectable, at the least. He was bobbing Chavez's head back and forth at times. And despite the lower Ring IQ, he wasn't a bad jabber/mover himself.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

All fair. But Chavez cuts the ring off better than anyone Floyd has ever seen. That takes the edge off the disparity in foot speed.


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Mayweather SD Eddie Perkins.


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Wilfred Benitez - Floyd beats him in a hard decision, maybe a MD.
Medrick Taylor - Floyd UD.
Kosta Tzyu - Floyd UD
Aron Pryor - Floyd UD
Julio Cesar Chavez - Chavez UD or TKO12.
Manny Pacquiao - Floyd TKO12
Azumah Nelson - Floyd UD, not easy though.
Alexis Arguello - Floyd UD.
Roberto Duran - Duran UD
Pernell Whitaker - Whitaker UD, close but clear.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Vic said:


> Mayweather SD Eddie Perkins.


THAT'S a nice fight.

To be fair, a lot of the fighters listed here aren't the 'greats' of the division (Tszyu and Taylor for instance, and Azumah Nelson, who is probably just about top 5 at super feather)

135: Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ross, Joe Brown, Ike Williams, Henry Armstrong
140: Ross, Loi, Locche, Cervantes


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> THAT'S a nice fight.
> 
> To be fair, a lot of the fighters listed here aren't the 'greats' of the division (Tszyu and Taylor for instance, and Azumah Nelson, who is probably just about top 5 at super feather)
> 
> ...


Indeed, I would like to see Floyd vs Cervantes.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Vic said:


> Indeed, I would like to see Floyd vs Cervantes.


:yep

Floyd would appear too athletically gifted, as Cervantes is a bit stiff in comparison, but he had great fundamentals and control of distance. That piston jab and chopping right hand were nothing to mess with.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Concrete said:


> Wilfred Benitez
> Medrick Taylor
> Kosta Tzyu
> Aron Pryor
> ...


Floyd best weight in terms of accomplishments and dominance was 130

Floyd best weight in terms of pure athleticism, power, speed, and agility, its 140lbs

Now that thats out of the way ill say as follows

Floyd vs Benetiz (Floyd close UD)
Floyd vs Taylor (Floyd TKO 11)
Floyd vs Kosta (Floyd TKO 8)
Floyd vs Pryor (Floyd controversial UD)
Floyd vs Chavez (Chavez UD 135, Floyd UD 140)
Floyd vs Pacquiao (Floyd KO 9 130, wide UD 135, Floyd TKO 11 cuts 140)
Floyd vs Nelson(Floyd TKO 10)
Floyd vs Arguello (Floyd wide UD 130,135, Floyd TKO 140)
Floyd vs Duran (Duran TKO due to injury 135, Duran close UD 140)
Pernell Whitaker (Whitaker close UD 135, Floyd controversial SD 140)


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Floyd best weight in terms of accomplishments and dominance was 130
> 
> Floyd best weight in terms of pure athleticism, power, speed, and agility, its 140lbs
> 
> ...


What are your reasons for picking Floyd to stop Nelson? Seeing as the only people to really hurt Nelson at his best were bangers, such as Mario Martinez.

Nelson could take beatings all day. Only stopped by Salvador Sanchez in the 15th round when Nelson was a green fighter and all out offensive. He became a more measured and rounded fighter as he went on.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> What are your reasons for picking Floyd to stop Nelson? Seeing as the only people to really hurt Nelson at his best were bangers, such as Mario Martinez.
> 
> Nelson could take beatings all day. Only stopped by Salvador Sanchez in the 15th round when Nelson was a green fighter and all out offensive. He became a more measured and rounded fighter as he went on.


mercy stoppage similar to Hernandez, Chavez and Augustus from being down so many points and taking too many consecutive clean blows. Azumah tries to press but Floyds offensive arsenal was far too varied at 130lbs and Floyd physically superiority is too much to overcome


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> mercy stoppage similar to Hernandez, Chavez and Augustus from being down so many points and taking too many consecutive clean blows. Azumah tries to press but Floyds offensive arsenal was far too varied at 130lbs and Floyd physically superiority is too much to overcome


You've never watched any Azumah Nelson fights have you?


----------



## Concrete (Oct 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> THAT'S a nice fight.
> 
> To be fair, a lot of the fighters listed here aren't the 'greats' of the division (Tszyu and Taylor for instance, and Azumah Nelson, who is probably just about top 5 at super feather)
> 
> ...


Yea I tried to keep it more towards the 90s ish


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You've never watched any Azumah Nelson fights have you?


Ive seen his fight with Whitaker and Hernandez. The only real pertinent fights to the discussion

Im sorry youre a Floyd hater. Want a pacifier?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Ive seen his fight with Whitaker and Hernandez. The only real pertinent fights to the discussion
> 
> Im sorry youre a Floyd hater. Want a pacifier?


I hope your Mum has a brain aneurysm.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I hope your Mum has a brain aneurysm.


Atleast she wasnt a crackwhore like yours


----------



## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Duran is levels above Floyd.
> 
> He even has a better defence.
> 
> It's not 'imaginary fights'. It's clear to see from the footage.


Log off.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> Log off.


They're not that far apart.


----------



## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> They're not that far apart.


I disagree. PBF is arguably the best defensive fighter in history top 3 at the least. Duran is nowhere near the top 3 best defensive fighters in history. I can agree that his defense is underrated but not in the class of PBF.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> Log off.


Lol. Duran turned water into wine, walked on water and raised the dead. The only fights he lost were those he didnt train for. He took Hagler the distance on a line of coke and whataburger


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> I disagree. PBF is arguably the best defensive fighter in history top 3 at the least. Duran is nowhere near the top 3 best defensive fighters in history. I can agree that his defense is underrated but not in the class of PBF.


Floyd emphasizes his defense more, but he never slipped consecutive punches against someone as offensively gifted as Leonard or Hagler. Duran's head movement was surreal. It's what allowed him to be so effective at blending his offense into it.


----------



## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Lol. Duran turned water into wine, walked on water and raised the dead. The only fights he lost were those he didnt train for. He took Hagler the distance on a line of coke and whataburger


LOL Duran apologist are funny to me. I love giving them a hard time.


----------



## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Floyd emphasizes his defense more, but he never slipped consecutive punches against someone as offensively gifted as Leonard or Hagler. Duran's head movement was surreal. It's what allowed him to be so effective at blending his offense into it.


Duran had great head movement but his defense isn't as good. I rarely see PBF get hit by the same punch over and over other than a jab. He also used movement better than Duran in his defense. PBF can frustrate guys with his defense take away their best weapons and shut them down. Guys land career low connect % against him.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> Duran had great head movement but his defense isn't as good. I rarely see PBF get hit by the same punch over and over other than a jab


Do you see Duran take the same punches over and over? He's also faced off against the superior offensive fighters.



Pimp C said:


> He also used movement better than Duran in his defense.


Different styles. Duran stayed closed, and slipped shots, Floyd often fights off the back-foot to counter. Duran counters in an aggressive fashion coming forward.



Pimp C said:


> PBF can frustrate guys with his defense take away their best weapons and shut them down. Guys land career low connect % against him.


Duran's not too dissimilar. He feints you to drop your hands and counters your best punch after a round or two. Duran didn't have the benefit of compubox, but again, he faced off against the superior offensive fighters.

I'm not even trying to argue Floyd isn't a better defensive fighter, I just fail to see the ocean gap you seem to be suggesting when you tell Flea Man, one of the most knowledgeable posters on the forum, to log off.


----------



## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Do you see Duran take the same punches over and over? He's also faced off against the superior offensive fighters.
> 
> Different styles. Duran stayed closed, and slipped shots, Floyd often fights off the back-foot to counter. Duran counters in an aggressive fashion coming forward.
> 
> ...


Flea Man is a duran apologist and one of the biggest PBF haters on ESB. I told him to log off because PBF is clearly a better defensive fighter than Duran. It would be like me arguing PBF had more power than Duran. PBF isn't feather-fisted but Duran clearly had more power.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> Flea Man is a duran apologist and one of the biggest PBF haters on ESB. I told him to log off because PBF is clearly a better defensive fighter than Duran. It would be like me arguing PBF had more power than Duran. PBF isn't feather-fisted but Duran clearly had more power.


But it's not like power because power is a raw measure. Defense is a collection of skills. I fail to see how they're so far apart. You say "clearly" but then don't have examples to distinguish them to the extent you're suggesting. I've never seen Flea Man not be able to back up an argument.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> Flea Man is a duran apologist and one of the biggest PBF haters on ESB. I told him to log off because PBF is clearly a better defensive fighter than Duran. It would be like me arguing PBF had more power than Duran. PBF isn't feather-fisted but Duran clearly had more power.


What would be your account for FMjr's getting tagged more often in his bout vs. Miguel Cotto? Was it a deliberate choice to make for a more entertaining fight? Or maybe Cotto being better then most of his recent opponents?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> What would be your account for FMjr's getting tagged more often in his bout vs. Miguel Cotto? Was it a deliberate choice to make for a more entertaining fight? Or maybe Cotto being better then most of his recent opponents?


Exaggeration. Not the first time Floyd got a bloody Plus Floyd threw 700 punches the most in his career, clearly Floyd was fighting more offensively than he has ever done on choice as well

Floyd sr and Floyd both were going back to a more defensive elusive style after the fight and noted it.

Still Cotto landed 21% of his punches


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Exaggeration. Not the first time Floyd got a bloody Plus Floyd through 700 punches the most in hos career, clearly Floyd was fighting more offensively than he has ever done on choice as well
> 
> Floyd sr and Floyd both were going back to a more defensive elusive style after the fight and noted it


Wasn't asking you, and your opinions means nothing Oneshot. You don't deserve any respect on this forum with the way you talk about other professional fighters poser.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Mal said:


> Wasn't asking you, and your opinions means nothing Oneshot.


Lmao


----------



## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> But it's not like power because power is a raw measure. Defense is a collection of skills. I fail to see how they're so far apart. You say "clearly" but then don't have examples to distinguish them to the extent you're suggesting. I've never seen Flea Man not be able to back up an argument.


I already backed it up when I mentioned connect % numbers and his ability to frustrate and take away his opponents best weapons.


----------



## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

Mal said:


> What would be your account for FMjr's getting tagged more often in his bout vs. Miguel Cotto? Was it a deliberate choice to make for a more entertaining fight? Or maybe Cotto being better then most of his recent opponents?


PBF never looked great at 154. He also had gotten away from his roots with Roger, his defense. If he had re matched Cotto with Floyd Sr, in his corner he wouldn't have gotten hit nearly as much. PBF got hit more than people are used to seeing in that fight but I still to this day think PBF wanted to prove a point with Cotto and fought in a more aggressive manner even still Cotto's jab was his money punch in that fight his strength caused PBF problems as well.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> PBF never looked great at 154. He also had gotten away from his roots with Roger, his defense. If he had re matched Cotto with Floyd Sr, in his corner he wouldn't have gotten hit nearly as much. PBF got hit more than people are used to seeing in that fight but I still to this day PBF wanted to prove a point with Cotto and fought in a more aggressive manner even still Cotto's jab was his money punch in that fight his strength caused PBF problems as well.


Thank you. I agree, if they did rematch, I'd predict a wider UD for FMjr. Good call on Cotto's jab, it's very underrated and one of the better jabs in boxing. He'll need to pump it as much vs. Sergio Martinez if he's to have some success.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Vic said:


> Indeed, I would like to see Floyd vs Cervantes.





Bogotazo said:


> Floyd would appear too athletically gifted, as Cervantes is a bit stiff in comparison, but he had great fundamentals and control of distance. That piston jab and chopping right hand were nothing to mess with.


I'm sorry to intefere but who da fuck is Cervantes?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> I already backed it up when I mentioned connect % numbers and his ability to frustrate and take away his opponents best weapons.


And I asked you if Duran is much different, and described the pattern he uses when isolated and triggering responses to then counter them as the fight goes on. And again, Duran didn't have the benefit of compubox. And again, fought the superior offensive fighters. This is why the gap is not enormous in either direction.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> I'm sorry to intefere but who da fuck is Cervantes?


:rofl:rofl


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Floyd neautralises Tszyus right hand and shuts him down. If he tries he can stop Tszyu.





Bogotazo said:


> Floyd by decision or late stoppage.


I agree with your sentiment regarding Floyd-Kostya.

Floyd is the favorite here.

It should be noted however that some people tend to oversimplify this fight - "yeah Kostya will plod forward, Floyd feasts on aggression".

Tszyu wasn't your usual plodding "don't fight him-outbox him" puncher.

Kostya's kryptonite were fighters who tried to suffocate his aggression/accurate right hand/brutal body punching.

Not movers/pure boxers/fighters who made him lead.

He broke down both Sharmba and Judah far more convincingly than he dealt with Hector Lopez for example.

And frankly, I don't see Floyd stopping Kostya - you'd need someone more aggressive or a much harder puncher to pull that off.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> I agree with your sentiment regarding Floyd-Kostya.
> 
> Floyd is the favorite here.
> 
> ...


I see Kostya going like a more competitive version of the JMM fight. Marquez found some spots where he could land his trademark right hand over the shoulder and made it treacherous for Floyd to come forward at will, but Floyd used his jab and movement to reduce those opportunities. If a stoppage comes, I think it's more on accumulation or cuts, in the late rounds when it's clear Kostya has run out of ideas. He's not a plodder, but a stout and calculated marksman.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Why do people bother talking these bias idiots. Floyd vs whoever = Floyd lost. Duran fought "better" offensive fighters while getting dropped by dejesus and tagged repeatedly, and gets ko by Joppy in 3. Sure ok.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Mal said:


> What would be your account for FMjr's getting tagged more often in his bout vs. Miguel Cotto? Was it a deliberate choice to make for a more entertaining fight? Or maybe Cotto being better then most of his recent opponents?


Yeah and Floyd was hardly touched by JMM who is a more skilled fighter than Cotto. Floyd himself said that he choose to fight off the ropes but draw your only conclusions and you guys seem to be really good at it.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Nobody in the boxing world as in boxers and trainers screams out Duran's name when they talk about skill but you don't have to look hard to find one that will say Floyd jr. Again these bias idiots will jack the shit up 60 pages if they have to try to force their opinion onto you.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Guys like intentional butt and Hands of iron are cool cats. They bring up classic bouts and conduct their homework and still accept other povs. And then you got little bitches like Bozo, Mal, Flea man, and pity the fool would act like their opinion is gold and turning the forum to pure garbage. They can't even stay on topic 95 percent of the time.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Why do people bother talking these bias idiots. Floyd vs whoever = Floyd lost. Duran fought "better" offensive fighters while getting dropped by dejesus and tagged repeatedly, and gets ko by Joppy in 3. Sure ok.


You think anyone who doesn't feel Floyd is TBE or top 3 ATG (a largely minority viewpoint) are biased. Despite the fact we use actual arguments, instead of vague assertions, like yourself.

He was absolutely shot against Joppy. That's a fact you choose to ignore for your own convenience.

Duran improved over the course of the De Jesus fights and was employing his defense impressively by the 3rd fight:






Meanwhile, in Mayweather Land:


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

You didnt see the video the other day with Roger talking about Duran did you?


tliang1000 said:


> Nobody in the boxing world as in boxers and trainers screams out Duran's name when they talk about skill but you don't have to look hard to find one that will say Floyd jr. Again these bias idiots will jack the shit up 60 pages if they have to try to force their opinion onto you.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Guys like intentional butt and Hands of iron are cool cats. They bring up classic bouts and conduct their homework and still accept other povs.


Hands of Iron was agreeing with everything I said in your thread, and mocked many of your ridiculous phrases.

I'd never scoff at any argument for Floyd beating anyone so long as there was a rational argument. Which you're incapable of making.



tliang1000 said:


> And then you got little bitches like Bozo, Mal, Flea man, and pity the fool would act like their opinion is gold and turning the forum to pure garbage. They can't even stay on topic 95 percent of the time.


Aw, were we too mean to you? Poor baby. Go watch some Mayweather defense highlights and you'll feel better.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You think anyone who doesn't feel Floyd is TBE or top 3 ATG (a largely minority viewpoint) are biased. Despite the fact we use actual arguments, instead of vague assertions, like yourself.
> 
> He was absolutely shot against Joppy. That's a fact you choose to ignore for your own convenience.
> 
> ...


I think he is the best boxer ever p4p. ATG num2 behind SRR but I have always said people don't have to agree with. That's the difference between you and I. We are talking about Fantasy match up. There ain't no prove so get over it.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Hands of Iron was agreeing with everything I said in your thread, and mocked many of your ridiculous phrases.
> 
> I'd never scoff at any argument for Floyd beating anyone so long as there was a rational argument. Which you're incapable of making.
> 
> Aw, were we too mean to you? Poor baby. Go watch some Mayweather defense highlights and you'll feel better.


Yeah man shit talking from bitches really faze me.
Look. I don't know who you think you are or how highly u put hands of iron. Overall he doesn't act like a str8 up bitch like you do. Full of shit.
I got people telling me that you are full of it as well as far as esb days but hey you care about others opinion.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

since your so caught up on what trainers say did you see the video with roger a few days ago talking about duran?


tliang1000 said:


> Yeah man shit talking from bitches really faze me.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I think he is the best boxer ever p4p. ATG num2 behind SRR but I have always said people don't have to agree with. That's the difference between you and I. We are talking about Fantasy match up. There ain't no prove so get over it.


Fantasy match-ups are always up to opinion. But resume is a much more objectively measurable variable, and you've proven over and over again that you make up your mind first, and then try and frantically dig for facts to support yourself later. Here's a tip: you're not good at it. At all.

I'll get over you having baseless opinions when it stops being funny. So far, it's still pathetically hilarious.



tliang1000 said:


> Yeah man shit talking from bitches really faze me.


Well you can't stop crying every time someone says something slightly negative about your idol so I'm sure you're really affected. Professional help is always an option.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Fantasy match-ups are always up to opinion. But resume is a much more objectively measurable variable, and you've proven over and over again that you make up your mind first, and then try and frantically dig for facts to support yourself later. Here's a tip: you're not good at it. At all.
> 
> I'll get over you having baseless opinions when it stops being funny. So far, it's still pathetically hilarious.
> 
> Well you can't stop crying every time someone says something slightly negative about your idol so I'm sure you're really affected. Professional help is always an option.


Baseless. You must have missed my resume comparison from last night.

They have no common opponents so yeah lets compare resume.
Duran 16 losses. Floyd 0. Hows that look?
Go down the list and see how many bums Floyd fought vs Duran. Tally it up.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Baseless. You must have missed my resume comparison from last night.
> 
> They have no common opponents so yeah lets compare resume.
> Duran 16 losses. Floyd 0. Hows that look?
> Go down the list and see how many bums Floyd fought vs Duran. Tally it up.


Duran beat the better fighters. You still can't dispute this.

Mikey Garcia is undefeated, is he better than Duran? 
Gamboa is undefeated, is he better than Duran? 
Ricardo Lopez retired undefeated, is he better than Duran? 
Joe Calzaghe is undefeated, is he better than Duran?

That 0 doesn't get you anywhere. Sorry. Accomplishments are about who you beat, not who you avoided losing to.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I don't give a shit if you talk about Floyd. It is that you are trying to hard that is disgusting. You act like you are not bias towards him but damn near everyone on here thinks you are. 
Don't think so highly of yourself. That is the main reason i chose to trash talk you. You are pretty gross and your wanna fit in attitude. Sick.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Duran beat the better fighters. You still can't dispute this.
> 
> Mikey Garcia is undefeated, is he better than Duran?
> Gamboa is undefeated, is he better than Duran?
> ...


Dispute HA. Whats there to dispute? No common opponents, and none of their opponents can relate to each other also. Do you understand that or are you retarded?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

You wanna something to compare here? Dispute this. Explain how Duran is better?

Duran's last ten


 2001-07-14Hector Camacho*73*-*4*-*2*

Pepsi Center, Denver, Colorado, USALUD1212  referee: Robert Ferrara | judge: Levi Martinez 112-114 | judge: Tyrone Short 108-118 | judge: Ed Kugler 108-118 
NBA Super Middleweight Title 2000-08-12Patrick Goossen*19*-*2*-*0*

Yakama Legends Casino, Toppenish, Washington, USAWUD1010 referee: Mike Fisher | judge: Dennis Ryan 98-92 | judge: Bruce Siebol 98-94 | judge: Larry Cover 97-93  2000-06-16Pat Lawlor*22*-*10*-*0*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Juan Diaz, PanamaWUD1212 referee: Julio Cesar Alvarado | judge: Harmodio Cedeno 117-113 | judge: Marcos A. Torres 117-113 | judge: Arturo Sánchez 117-114 
*NBA Super Middleweight Title* 1999-03-06Omar Eduardo Gonzalez*20*-*1*-*0*

Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires, ArgentinaLUD10101998-08-28William Joppy*25*-*1*-*1*

Las Vegas Hilton, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALTKO312 time: 2:54 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Duane Ford | judge: Cesar Ramos | judge: Derek Milham 
WBA World middleweight title 1998-01-31Felix Jose Hernandez*10*-*5*-*1*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWUD1010 referee: Carlos Berrocal | judge: Marcos A. Torres 97-91 | judge: Arturo Sánchez 98-91 | judge: Harmodio Cedeno 97-91 
Duran was knocked down in 1st round.- Hernandez dropped in 4th and 8th rounds.- 1997-11-15David Radford*14*-*9*-*2*

Carousel Casino, Hammanskraal, Gauteng, South AfricaWUD88 80-73 | 79-74 | 78-75  1997-06-14Jorge Fernando Castro*101*-*5*-*2*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWUD1010 referee: Carlos Berrocal | 97-95 | 97-95 | 97-95  1997-02-15Jorge Fernando Castro*100*-*5*-*2*

Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires, ArgentinaLUD1010 94-100 | 96-99 | 98-99  1996-09-27Mike Culbert*21*-*3*-*0*

Mountaineer Casino Racetrack and Resort, Chester, West Virginia, USAWTKO610

Floyd's last ten


 2013-09-14Saul Alvarez*42*-*0*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWMD1212  referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 116-112 | judge: C.J. Ross 114-114 | judge: Craig Metcalfe 117-111 
WBC light middleweight title (supervisor: Mauricio Sulaiman)
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Gilberto Jesus Mendoza) 2013-05-04Robert Guerrero*31*-*1*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Robert Byrd | judge: Jerry Roth 117-111 | judge: Duane Ford 117-111 | judge: Julie Lederman 117-111 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman) 2012-05-05Miguel Cotto*37*-*2*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-111 | judge: Dave Moretti 117-111 
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Aurelio Fiengo)
vacant WBC Diamond light middleweight title 2011-09-17Victor Ortiz*29*-*2*-*2*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWKO412 time: 2:59 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Jerry Roth | judge: Adalaide Byrd | judge: Glenn Trowbridge 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman)
Ortiz penalized 1 point in rd 4 for head-butt. Ortiz down rd 4. 2010-05-01Shane Mosley*46*-*5*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 119-109 | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Adalaide Byrd 119-109  2009-09-19Juan Manuel Marquez*50*-*4*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Burt A. Clements 120-107 | judge: Dave Moretti 119-108 | judge: Bill Lerch 118-109 
Marquez down once in 2nd round 2007-12-08Ricky Hatton*43*-*0*-*0*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO1012 time: 1:35 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Paul Smith 88-82 | judge: Dave Moretti 89-81 | judge: Burt A. Clements 89-81 
WBC welterweight title 2007-05-05Oscar De La Hoya*38*-*4*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWSD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Jerry Roth 115-113 | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 113-115 
WBC light middleweight title 2006-11-04Carlos Manuel Baldomir*43*-*9*-*6*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 120-108 | judge: John Keane 120-108 | judge: Paul Smith 118-110 
WBC welterweight title
International Boxing Organization welterweight title
International Boxing Association welterweight title 2006-04-08Zab Judah*34*-*3*-*0*

Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Dispute HA. Whats there to dispute? No common opponents, and none of their opponents can relate to each other also. Do you understand that or are you retarded?


Are you this fucking stupid? Nobody is saying they have to have fought common opponents. You compare resumes by examining the qualities of their best wins, and their overall body of work.

Duran and Leonard have the better wins. Form an argument indicating the opposite or stfu.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Lmao you clowning durans 16 losses. You know his career lasted 33 years right? He fought three times the amout of fights floyd did. Even floyds own uncle doesnt agree with the dumb shit you say


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Oh my god you are the biggest dumbass on here. Duran was an old fucking man at the end of his career


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Lmao you clowning durans 16 losses. You know his career lasted 33 years right? He fought three times the amout of fights floyd did. Even floyds own uncle doesnt agree with the dumb shit you say


Yeah and Floyd been fighting since he was a toddler and have over 160 amateur bouts. If Floyd fought the amount of bums that Duran did his record would be 120-0


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You wanna something to compare here? Dispute this. Explain how Duran is better?


Why would you choose the last 10 fights of a shot fighter who is now retired against a fighter who is still active and has fought half the number of fights? By that logic Andre Ward is better than Roy Jones Jr. :rofl

Compare *best wins.*

Cotto, Hatton, DLH, Castillo, Corrales, are not better than Leonard, Buchanan, De Jesus, Palomino, Moore. Hell, the competitive loss to Hagler is more impressive than many of Floyd's wins.



tliang1000 said:


> Yeah and Floyd been fighting since he was a toddler and have over 160 amateur bouts. If Floyd fought the amount of bums that Duran did his record would be 120-0


Floyd would beat Leonard and Hearns and Benitez then? And Moore at 154? And Hagler and Barkley at 160? :lol: OK bro.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Oh my god you are the biggest dumbass on here. Duran was an old fucking man at the end of his career


OMFB.

here in his 30s you happy now??


 1988-02-05Ricky Stackhouse*18*-*5*-*1*

Convention Center, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010  referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Frank Cairo 96-92 | judge: Frank Brunette 96-92 | judge: Richard Strange 98-91 
Stackhouse was knocked down in the 7th round.-
 1987-09-12Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra*28*-*3*-*2*

James L. Knight Center, Miami Beach, Florida, USAWUD1010 referee: Juan Arias | judge: John Rupert 97-91 | judge: Al Wilensky 96-91 | judge: Mark Conn 98-91 
 1987-05-16Victor Claudio*10*-*4*-*0*

Convention Center, Miami Beach, Florida, USAWUD1010 judge: Edward S. Levine 98-91 | judge: Stuart Winston 99-91 | judge: Mark Sheckner 98-92 
Claudio down in 9th
 1986-06-23Robbie Sims*26*-*4*-*1*

Caesars Palace, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALSD1010 referee: Mills Lane | judge: Bill Graham 92-97 | judge: Jerry Roth 94-95 | judge: Art Lurie 96-94 
 1986-04-18Jorge Suero*0*-*2*-*0*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWKO210 time: 1:45 | referee: Carlos Berrocal | judge: Rodolfo Maldonado | judge: Arturo Sánchez 
 1986-01-31Manuel Zambrano*5*-*7*-*0*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWKO210 time: 2:57 | referee: Carlos Berrocal 
Zambrano suffered a triple fracture of the jaw
 1984-06-15Thomas Hearns*38*-*1*-*0*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALTKO212 referee: Carlos Padilla | judge: Newton Campos 6-10 | judge: Harry Gibbs 7-10 | judge: Hans LeVert 7-10 
WBC light middleweight title
 1983-11-10Marvin Hagler*57*-*2*-*2*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALUD1515 referee: Stanley Christodoulou | judge: Guy Jutras 142-144 | judge: Yusaku Yoshida 145-146 | judge: Ove Ovesen 143-144 
WBC middleweight title 
 
 1983-06-16Davey Moore
*12*-*0*-*0*

Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USAWTKO815  time: 2:02 | referee: Ernesto Magana | judge: Fernando Viso 70-64 | judge: Kazumasa Kuwata 70-65 | judge: Yusaku Yoshida 70-65 
WBA World light middleweight title
Moore was knocked down in the 7th round.-
 1983-01-29
Pipino Cuevas*29*-*8*-*0*

Sports Arena, Los Angeles, California, USAWTKO412 time: 2:26 | referee: James Jen-Kin 
 1982-11-12Jimmy Batten*36*-*6*-*0*

Orange Bowl, Miami, Florida, USAWUD1010 99-93 | 98-94 | 98-94  1982-09-04Kirkland Laing*23*-*3*-*1*

Cobo Hall, Detroit, Michigan, USALSD1010 referee: Bobby Watson | judge: Bernard Humphrey 96-94 | judge: Nate McAlpine 94-96 | judge: Stuart Kirshenbaum 94-96 
*1982 Upset of the Year - Ring Magazine* 1982-01-30Wilfred Benitez*43*-*1*-*1*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALUD1515 referee: Richard Greene | judge: Hal Miller 142-143 | judge: Lou Tabat 141-145 | judge: Dave Moretti 141-144 
WBC light middleweight title 1981-09-26Luigi Minchillo*35*-*1*-*0*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1010 judge: Hal Miller 98-92 | judge: Dave Moretti 100-91 | judge: Paul Smith 100-90  1981-08-09Nino Gonzalez*24*-*1*-*0*

Public Hall, Cleveland, Ohio, USAWUD1010 referee: Jackie Keough 48-44 | judge: Ed McGuire 47-43 | judge: Vito Mazzeo 48-45  1980-11-25Sugar Ray Leonard*27*-*1*-*0*

Superdome, New Orleans, Louisiana, USALTKO815 time: 2:44 | referee: Octavio Meyran | judge: Mike Jacobs 66-68 | judge: Jean Deswert 66-68 | judge: James Brimmell 66-67 
WBC welterweight title 1980-06-20Sugar Ray Leonard*27*-*0*-*0*

Olympic Stadium, Montreal, Quebec, CanadaWUD1515 


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

lmao. you are slow as shit.


tliang1000 said:


> Yeah and Floyd been fighting since he was a toddler and have over 160 amateur bouts. If Floyd fought the amount of bums that Duran did his record would be 120-0


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Newsflash everyone, according to tliang: every boxer ages at the same rate. We should all judge a boxer's physical condition by their physical age, not by how many challenging fights they had fought :lol:


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> lmao. you are slow as shit.


REad this shit you stupid bitch and tell me whats the difference? u see bums? u see losses? OK THEN. i rest my case.

 1988-02-05Ricky Stackhouse*18*-*5*-*1*

Convention Center, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010  referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Frank Cairo 96-92 | judge: Frank Brunette 96-92 | judge: Richard Strange 98-91 
Stackhouse was knocked down in the 7th round.-
 1987-09-12Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra*28*-*3*-*2*

James L. Knight Center, Miami Beach, Florida, USAWUD1010 referee: Juan Arias | judge: John Rupert 97-91 | judge: Al Wilensky 96-91 | judge: Mark Conn 98-91 
 1987-05-16Victor Claudio*10*-*4*-*0*

Convention Center, Miami Beach, Florida, USAWUD1010 judge: Edward S. Levine 98-91 | judge: Stuart Winston 99-91 | judge: Mark Sheckner 98-92 
Claudio down in 9th
 1986-06-23Robbie Sims*26*-*4*-*1*

Caesars Palace, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALSD1010 referee: Mills Lane | judge: Bill Graham 92-97 | judge: Jerry Roth 94-95 | judge: Art Lurie 96-94 
 1986-04-18Jorge Suero*0*-*2*-*0*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWKO210 time: 1:45 | referee: Carlos Berrocal | judge: Rodolfo Maldonado | judge: Arturo Sánchez 
 1986-01-31Manuel Zambrano*5*-*7*-*0*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWKO210 time: 2:57 | referee: Carlos Berrocal 
Zambrano suffered a triple fracture of the jaw
 1984-06-15Thomas Hearns*38*-*1*-*0*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALTKO212 referee: Carlos Padilla | judge: Newton Campos 6-10 | judge: Harry Gibbs 7-10 | judge: Hans LeVert 7-10 
WBC light middleweight title
 1983-11-10Marvin Hagler*57*-*2*-*2*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALUD1515 referee: Stanley Christodoulou | judge: Guy Jutras 142-144 | judge: Yusaku Yoshida 145-146 | judge: Ove Ovesen 143-144 
WBC middleweight title 


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Newsflash everyone, according to tliang: every boxer ages at the same rate. We should all judge a boxer's physical condition by their physical age, not by how many challenging fights they had fought :lol:


According to you that Duran is a very superior fighter. So easy to counter u is unreal.

"challenging fights"

Floyd been fighting all his life from a kid to Olympics to now and he is still in fighting shape in between fights. While Duran is getting fat. But according to you he is far superior. YEAH OK.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

lmao. You win tliang. Floyd is also better than Robinson. Fuckin bum had 19 losses. The baldomir and ortiz type wins put there records to shame.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah and Floyd was hardly touched by JMM who is a more skilled fighter than Cotto. Floyd himself said that he choose to fight off the ropes but draw your only conclusions and you guys seem to be really good at it.


What the heck are you talking about? I asked Pimp C about Floyd's getting tagged more, and whether he thought it might have been in attempts to make a more action laden fight. So what conclusion did I draw by asking what he thought?

i always try to be civil with people, whether it's on online forums, or in person. But tliang, you are just one of the most ridiculous posters I see here when it comes to defending FMjr. I didn't even say anything bad, and yet you reply like this? As many here agree on, you are just a damn fool with absolutely no sense of history. Twat.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> According to you that Duran is a very superior fighter. So easy to counter u is unreal.
> 
> "challenging fights"
> 
> Floyd been fighting all his life from a kid to Olympics to now and he is still in fighting shape in between fights. While Duran is getting fat. But according to you he is far superior. YEAH OK.


Duran has the better wins. Therefore he is greater. You can't dispute this. Run along now.



Brnxhands said:


> lmao. You win tliang. Floyd is also better than Robinson. Fuckin bum had 19 losses. The baldomir and ortiz type wins put there records to shame.


:lol: Stop the presses! tliang just discovered all by himself, using his own redundant logic, that Floyd is the GOAT! Being undefeated means he's TBE! Who cares about best wins? Floyd was never fat! TBE!


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> lmao. You win tliang. Floyd is also better than Robinson. Fuckin bum had 19 losses. The *baldomir and ortiz type wins* put there records to shame.


LOL as oppose to this?


1986-04-18Jorge Suero*0*-*2*-*0*


Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWKO210  time: 1:45 | referee: Carlos Berrocal | judge: Rodolfo Maldonado | judge: Arturo Sánchez  1986-01-31Manuel Zambrano*5*-*7*-*0*


Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWKO210


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Duran has the better wins. Therefore he is greater. You can't dispute this. Run along now.
> 
> :lol: Stop the presses! tliang just discovered all by himself, using his own redundant logic, that Floyd is the GOAT! Being undefeated means he's TBE! Who cares about best wins? Floyd was never fat! TBE!


Typical Bogo. can't debate worth a shit and want to change course. Too easy. What's next my videos again?

I never said Floyd got the best resume ever so stop trying to put words in my mouth. Duran? He lost to Hearns, he lost to SRL, he lost to Hagler and Camacho.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Typical Bogo. can't debate worth a shit and want to change course. Too easy. What's next my videos again?


How did I change the course? The basis for my claim is something you haven't been able to dispute. Duran has the better top wins. You can't argue against that because you don't know where to begin. Run along now.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@Bogo,

Better wins bc you said so. Like I said, you are full of it.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> How did I change the course? The basis for my claim is something you haven't been able to dispute. Duran has the better top wins. You can't argue against that because you don't know where to begin. Run along now.


Again. How you going to determine who got better wins with no common opponents/different weight classes/different ERA you stupid retard. I presented something that can be compare and want none of it. You lost easily.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Even if you do list top 10 of Duran's wins vs Floyd top 10 and THEN WHAT?! Nothing. When you going to understand this?


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Thing is floyd has NOWHERE near the best resume. Hasnt even fought the other great fighter of his era. Fights once or at the most twice every 14 months


tliang1000 said:


> Typical Bogo. can't debate worth a shit and want to change course. Too easy. What's next my videos again?
> 
> I never said Floyd got the best resume ever so stop trying to put words in my mouth. Duran? He lost to Hearns, he lost to SRL, he lost to Hagler and Camacho.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Everybody on here laughs an disagrees with your views. Because your views are stupid. And everybody also laughed at you when you showed us that heavy bag video. If you didnt talk so much shit people wouldnt clown you


tliang1000 said:


> Again. How you going to determine who got better wins with no common opponents/different weight classes/different ERA you stupid retard. I presented something that can be compare and want none of it. You lost easily.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Again. How you going to determine who got better wins with no common opponents/different weight classes/different ERA you stupid retard. I presented something that can be compare and want none of it. You lost easily.


Comparing resumes between fighters is an extremely common thing to do. In fact it's the basis for most people's rankings and comparisons of different fighters. It takes unbelievable stupidity to keep questioning this fact as if anyone is suggesting common opponents are necessary. That's WHY you compare them, because they are different. You compare the quality of each fighter's best wins. Since I know you know practically nothing about Duran's best wins, there's no conversation to be had with you, aside from your constant bitching and meandering.



tliang1000 said:


> Even if you do list top 10 of Duran's wins vs Floyd top 10 and THEN WHAT?!


Then you will finally understand why people commonly rank Duran significantly higher than they do Mayweather. I doubt it though, your mind is made up despite the overwhelming lack of evidence.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Thing is floyd has NOWHERE near the best resume. *Hasnt even fought the other great fighter of his era*. Fights once or at the most twice every 14 months


Have you keep up with boxing recently? BC he has fought who's who, p4p, relevant fighters coming off big wins and you don't know wtf they are? Did he not lifted titles from champions and dethrone them?

You don't know wtf you are talking about that is clear.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Did he not lifted titles


tliang1000 said:


> Have you keep up with boxing recently? BC he has fought who's who, p4p, relevant fighters coming off big wins and you don't know wtf they are? Did he not lifted titles from champions and dethrone them?
> 
> You don't know wtf you are talking about that is clear.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Have you keep up with boxing recently? BC he has fought who's who, p4p, relevant fighters coming off big wins and you don't know wtf they are? Did he not lifted titles from champions and dethrone them?
> 
> You don't know wtf you are talking about that is clear.


He stated that Floyd hasn't fought the other greatest fighter of his era, which is Pacquiao. You are lacking some special education boy.



Brnxhands said:


> Did he not lifted titles


:rofl


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Comparing resumes between fighters is an extremely common thing to do. In fact it's the basis for most people's rankings and comparisons of different fighters. It takes unbelievable stupidity to keep questioning this fact as if anyone is suggesting common opponents are necessary. That's WHY you compare them, because they are different. You compare the quality of each fighter's best wins. Since I know you know practically nothing about Duran's best wins, there's no conversation to be had with you, aside from your constant bitching and meandering.
> 
> Then you will finally understand why people commonly rank Duran significantly higher than they do Mayweather. I doubt it though, your mind is made up despite the overwhelming lack of evidence.


Do you know how to compare?

Stats, how many champions they fought, how many titles. Achievements. Those can be compare. 
Without enough common grounds then you can't compare. Where are the common grounds between floyd's and duran's opponents??????????????


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> He stated that Floyd hasn't fought the other greatest fighter of his era, which is Pacquiao. You are lacking some special education boy.
> 
> :rofl


Oh really? last time i've checked that JMM best that boy and knocked him out cold. And even if people want to say is him and is Floyd's fault that the fight didn't follow through.

Last time i've checked Pac have a problem with a drug test. Last time I've checked he has a problem with 40million.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Do you know how to compare?


Yes, I watch the fights. Try it sometime.



tliang1000 said:


> Stats, how many champions they fought, how many titles. Achievements. Those can be compare.


Which is what I've been doing. Although above all is the quality of the fighters. Their ability on film against their peers. That's arguable.



tliang1000 said:


> Without enough common grounds then you can't compare.


Yes you can. People do it all the time. It's one of the most common features of boxing forums. Stop playing dumb, you're embarrassing yourself.



tliang1000 said:


> Where are the common grounds between floyd's and duran's opponents??????????????


Irrelevant.

When people make threads asking "who ranks higher, Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali?" Or "who ranks higher, Hopkins or Hagler"? There is no overlap, yet people compare best wins by judging the quality of their opponents. The fact this concept seems new to you is troubling.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Oh really? last time i've checked that JMM best that boy and knocked him out cold.


Right, JMM. Not Floyd.



tliang1000 said:


> And even if people want to say is him and is Floyd's fault that the fight didn't follow through.


Were you going to finish this sentence and then forgot?



tliang1000 said:


> Last time i've checked Pac have a problem with a drug test.


You're late, Pac drug-tested against Rios.



tliang1000 said:


> Last time I've checked he has a problem with 40million.


Floyd has a problem with Arum.

This is all irrelevant to the fact Floyd didn't fight Pac. He missed out on his greatest contemporary rival. Which is what he said, which is what your tiny brain couldn't comprehend.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yes, I watch the fights. Try it sometime.
> 
> Which is what I've been doing. Although above all is the quality of the fighters. Their ability on film against their peers. That's arguable.
> 
> ...


You are done man. There is nothing left for me to tell before you try to weasel to another direction. You want something that can be compared, i've gave it to you.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> When people make threads asking "who ranks higher, Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali?" Or "who ranks higher, Hopkins or Hagler"? There is no overlap, yet people compare best wins by judging the quality of their opponents. The fact this concept seems new to you is troubling.


This should be common sense to anyone who claims to be not just a fan of the sport, but a student. It's clear tliang isn't a student of anything, but being the best FMjr fan he can be. Good for him.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You are done man. There is nothing left for me to tell before you try to weasel to another direction. You want something that can be compared, i've give it to you.


Comparing different resumes is something fans have been doing as long as boxing has existed. That's how you compare fighters. If you want to use the weird idea that resumes without common names can't be compared as an excuse for you to exit the conversation, feel free.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

It doesnt matter who was at fault in the pac and floyd fight not happening. I don't know and I won't point fingers because it doesnt matter. The bottom line is it never happened. An that is gonna hurt floyd a lot. What atg first ballot hall of famers has Floyd beat? An don't say De la hoya. Good win over a coked out promoter and part time fighter


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Right, JMM. Not Floyd.
> 
> Were you going to finish this sentence and then forgot?
> 
> ...


Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Oscar, and Shane were all his rivals you retard. Before Pac even gotten big the forums were accusing Floyd ducking those fools. And no one was asking for a Pac fight until Oscar. People think is his greatest bc they haven't fought. Like they were talking up Margo the same way which he proved that he wasn't as Pac did when he got KTFO by JMM.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> It doesnt matter who was at fault in the pac and floyd fight not happening. I don't know and I won't point fingers because it doesnt matter. The bottom line is it never happened. An that is gonna hurt floyd a lot. What atg first ballot hall of famers has Floyd beat? An don't say De la hoya. Good win over a coked out promoter and part time fighter


Keep up with boxing. JMM, Castillo, Corrales, Cotto, Shane and Oscar.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Oscar, and Shane were all his rivals you retard.


Pacquiao was his greatest most demanded one. And Floyd missed out. Which he stated, which your brain couldn't compute for some unknown reason.



tliang1000 said:


> Before Pac even gotten big the forums were accusing Floyd ducking those fools. And no one was asking for a Pac fight until Oscar.


So? He was considered an ATG by then. It only makes sense that a successful move to welterweight create a demand for a fight between the two.



tliang1000 said:


> People think is his greatest bc they haven't fought. Like they were talking up Margo the same way which he proved that he wasn't as Pac did when he got KTFO by JMM.


The hype for Pacquiao-Mayweather towers over any "hype" Margarito-Mayweather had. Seriously, what the fuck goes through your brain?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Comparing different resumes is something fans have been doing as long as boxing has existed. That's how you compare fighters. If you want to use the weird idea that resumes without common names can't be compared as an excuse for you to exit the conversation, feel free.


GO AHEAD and compare them then if you don't believe me. Let's see how far you get before people shrugged their shoulders.
DO IT.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Pacquiao was his greatest most demanded one. And Floyd missed out. Which he stated, which your brain couldn't compute for some unknown reason.
> 
> So? He was considered an ATG by then. It only makes sense that a successful move to welterweight create a demand for a fight between the two.
> 
> The hype for Pacquiao-Mayweather towers over any "hype" Margarito-Mayweather had. Seriously, what the fuck goes through your brain?


When will it go through your brain that Pac had two offers in front of him and he said no?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> GO AHEAD and compare them then if you don't believe me. Let's see how far you get before people shrugged their shoulders.
> DO IT.


I already did. Everyone following the thread agreed with me. You're extremely late :lol:



tliang1000 said:


> When will it go through your brain that Pac had two offers in front of him and he said no?


The back and forth negotiations are irrelevant. Floyd didn't fight Pacquiao, his greatest most demanded rival. That's what was said in the referenced post, and for some reason you were too stupid to get that.

Look dude, I'm cutting you off. The thread was doing fine before you decided to troll non-stop. Here we are pages later yet again. Your nut-hugging posts and insults contribute nothing to discussion and are bordering on trolling. Cut the shit. Stop ruining threads, and don't post in this one again.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

It actually amuses me seeing tliang made to look so clueless.

The thing is, even if one is to rank on the eye test and not in power of resume, Duran is still a comfortable winner in the debate. Floyd has never produced the kind of performance Duran did against Leonard, Never.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> According to you that Duran is a very superior fighter. So easy to counter u is unreal.
> 
> "challenging fights"
> 
> Floyd been fighting all his life from a kid to Olympics to now and he is still in fighting shape in between fights. While Duran is getting fat. But according to you he is far superior. YEAH OK.


At the same age Floyd was still an amateur Duran was beating Ernesto Marcel, future ATG


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> At the same age Floyd was still an amateur Duran was beating Ernesto Marcel, future ATG


:lol:


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :lol:


Somluck was a bigger bad ass in Atlanta anyway :yep :deal


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> Log off.


Why should he log off for that opinion? The style of Durans defence was far harder to pull off than Floyds as Durans was integrated back and forth with his offensive attacks as fluid as you will ever see. Durans defence was more impressive and harder to pull off dan dat shoulder roll :deal


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Concrete said:


> Wilfred Benitez
> Medrick Taylor
> Kosta Tzyu
> Aron Pryor
> ...


Pea, Duran, JCC and Pryor would beat Floyd no problem imo.

Benitez is a pick em.

Not seen enough of Taylor to Judge. Shame on me, I need to scrub up on that one.

Floyd UD's Tzyu

prime Pac is 50/50 but if I had to choose it would be Floyd in a close decision.

Nelson loses by UD

Arguello loses in a close fight.

I would have liked to have seen Napoles on the list. He beats Floyd and shows him some serious skills in the process.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

rossco said:


> Pea, Duran, JCC and Pryor would beat Floyd no problem imo.
> 
> Benitez is a pick em.
> 
> ...


what's the reasoning behind Napoles win? He's not mentioned much, but the few people who do mention him are usually confident that he would beat Floyd


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> what's the reasoning behind Napoles win? He's not mentioned much, but the few people who do mention him are usually confident that he would beat Floyd


He would show Floyd some serious skills and would take a clear points win from what I've seen of him. Floyd's only chance is at range but Napoles was a master at dictating range. great jab, great at slipping shots and just an all round more skilled guy than Floyd who has a speed advantage and maybe a better defence against the ropes. Centre of the ring Napoles has the tools to dominate Floyd from any range he pleases. It would be a centre of the ring affair and Napoles is the better ring general. Floyd would land some nice clean pot shots as he would do against anybody but he just doesn't have the power, offensive skills and doesn't put out the work to dominate a guy like Napoles.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Luf said:


> It actually amuses me seeing tliang made to look so clueless.
> 
> The thing is, even if one is to rank on the eye test and not in power of resume, Duran is still a comfortable winner in the debate. Floyd has never produced the kind of performance Duran did against Leonard, Never.


The Leonard fight was at welterweight. I'd actually take Floyd comfortably at 154, but at 147 and below, it's a tougher fight for both guys.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

rossco said:


> Why should he log off for that opinion? The style of Durans defence was far harder to pull off than Floyds as Durans was integrated back and forth with his offensive attacks as fluid as you will ever see. Durans defence was more impressive and harder to pull off dan dat shoulder roll :deal


Nonsense statement. We've seen tons of fighters who are able to bob and weave to set up counters. Very few boxers in history have been able to incorporate the shoulder roll completely into their defensive *AND * offensive arsenal without looking foolish.

Oscar De La Hoya, Cotto, Berto, Broner, Zab Judah are all recent fighters who will sometimes attempt to use the shoulder roll in a fight yet mostly come off looking foolish ala Oscar vs Vargas or taking excessive punishment ala Broner vs Maidana or Berto vs Guerrero.

And Floyds defensive skill set goes far beyond the should roll incorporating movement, feints, jabs and the high guard when he feels the situation warrants.










Thats fucking beautiful right there.

If you can name one fighter today who can stand in the pocket with Cotto and deliver more punishment then he takes im all ears.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

turbotime said:


> The Leonard fight was at welterweight. I'd actually take Floyd comfortably at 154, but at 147 and below, it's a tougher fight for both guys.


the weight two fight makes no difference to me on the upper limits, at the lower limits draining can come into play.

at lmw or ww the fight plays out the same.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> the weight two fight makes no difference to me on the upper limits, at the lower limits draining can come into play.
> 
> at lmw or ww the fight plays out the same.


You mean the same Duran that got owned by Benitez? Oh yeah Duran didnt train for that fight, and broke his hand knocking out a horse just 3 hours earlier.

Alright Floyd vs Duran 147, with the stipulation Floyd doesnt get to train at all for the fight.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> You mean the same Duran that got owned by Benitez? Oh yeah Duran didnt train for that fight, and broke his hand knocking out a horse just 3 hours earlier.
> 
> Alright Floyd vs Duran 147, with the stipulation Floyd doesnt get to train at all for the fight.


if you wanna pick that version of Duran that's up to you. I would personally pick the Duran from Montreal or sooner when he was much more consistent and impressive.

tbh, talking real prime for prime I'd be taking the lw versions of each.

my point was that if one favours Duran at 147, they shouldn't then favour Floyd at 154 unless they are pitting him against a more declined version in which case, what is the point?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyds prime was 12 years ago, thankfully he respects his craft to this day we dont have to use excuses like "Floyd didnt train for that fight" or "Floyd was doing drugs at this time in his career" so if Floyd chooses he can fight another 4-5 years at a high level.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Nonsense statement. We've seen tons of fighters who are able to bob and weave to set up counters. Very few boxers in history have been able to incorporate the shoulder roll completely into their defensive *AND * offensive arsenal without looking foolish.
> 
> Oscar De La Hoya, Cotto, Berto, Broner, Zab Judah are all recent fighters who will sometimes attempt to use the shoulder roll in a fight yet mostly come off looking foolish ala Oscar vs Vargas or taking excessive punishment ala Broner vs Maidana or Berto vs Guerrero.
> 
> ...


I'm not slating Floyd's defence. His shoulder roll and general defensive skills have mostlylooked outstanding. It's the level of fighter he's competed against that make me question just how good it really is.
Name me one boxer we have extensive footage of that can slip, block and parry punches at mid to close range as good as Duran while being super aggressive? I feel Durans defence is harder to pull off and was truly tested against all styles.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

rossco said:


> I'm not slating Floyd's defence. His shoulder roll and general defensive skills have mostlylooked outstanding. It's the level of fighter he's competed against that make me question just how good it really is.
> Name me one boxer we have extensive footage of that can slip, block and parry punches at mid to close range as good as Duran while being super aggressive? I feel Durans defence is harder to pull off and was truly tested against all styles.


The fight against Genaro Hernandez I just posted Floyd is slipping, rolling while coming forward while trying to put a hurting on Hernandez.

However a more obvious answer is a prime Tyson. A not so obvious answer is Whitaker when he got into one of his moods.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Luf said:


> the weight two fight makes no difference to me on the upper limits, at the lower limits draining can come into play.
> 
> *at lmw or ww the fight plays out the same.*


No way.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

rossco said:


> I'm not slating Floyd's defence. His shoulder roll and general defensive skills have mostlylooked outstanding. It's the level of fighter he's competed against that make me question just how good it really is.
> Name me one boxer we have extensive footage of that can slip, block and parry punches at mid to close range as good as Duran while being super aggressive? I feel Durans defence is harder to pull off and was truly tested against all styles.


Armstrong is a tier above Duran in the rolling while being offensive category.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

turbotime said:


> No way.


you think Floyd is better weighing 150 as opposed to 147?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Luf said:


> you think Floyd is better weighing 150 as opposed to 147?


He weighs around the same regardless. Take the 154 version of Mayweather vs the 154 version of Duran and give me Floyd every time.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

turbotime said:


> He weighs around the same regardless. Take the 154 version of Mayweather vs the 154 version of Duran and give me Floyd every time.


so if he weighs the same regardless and the extra weight has zero effect, why would you suddenly be more confident picking Floyd?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> He weighs around the same regardless. Take the 154 version of Mayweather vs the 154 version of Duran and give me Floyd every time.


Davey Moore version? I dunno about that, but I'd make Floyd the favorite for sure at that weight. Floyd would be better off at 154 rather than Lightweight or 147.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Luf said:


> so if he weighs the same regardless and the extra weight has zero effect, why would you suddenly be more confident picking Floyd?


I think Floyd ironed out his style to be more effective once he got back with his father.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Davey Moore version? I dunno about that, but I'd make Floyd the favorite for sure at that weight. Floyd would be better off at 154 rather than Lightweight or 147.


Yeah I think I'd take him. I'd take Floyd over Moore, as well.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Whitaker vs Hurtado when Whitaker knew he was gonna drop a decision and was basically coming forward throwing KO bombs with every shot. Just shows what a mean little bastard he could be and his offensive brilliance when he needed to have it


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Yeah I think I'd take him. I'd take Floyd over Moore, as well.


I guess I'm not comfortable picking Floyd over those guys at 154 given he's only beaten Canelo, Cotto & DLH at 154, Cotto being a small SMW like Floyd and DLH being old. I think Duran would make it tough even at that weight. Moore, I don't even know.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I guess I'm not comfortable picking Floyd over those guys at 154 given he's only beaten Canelo, Cotto & DLH at 154, Cotto being a small SMW like Floyd and DLH being old. I think Duran would make it tough even at that weight. Moore, I don't even know.


Cotto is hardly small at the weight. 4 lbs lighter than Canelo was on fight night apparently.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I think Floyd ironed out his style to be more effective once he got back with his father.


so if you take the Floyd vs Guerrero against the Duran vs Leonard would you still pick Floyd?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Cotto is hardly small at the weight. 4 lbs lighter than Canelo was on fight night apparently.


Well he certainly looked undersized against Trout. The point is he will be smaller than his opponent most of the time at 154, like Floyd. 154 is a perfect weight for Canelo while we all know Cotto was better at 147.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Armstrong is a tier above Duran in the rolling while being offensive category.


A tier above Duran!?! How many do we have in this tier?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

rossco said:


> A tier above Duran!?! How many do we have in this tier?


Armstrong.

Then we have the Duran's, Napoles, Chavez

I personally see Armstrong considerably greater than those guys


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Luf said:


> so if you take the Floyd vs Guerrero against the Duran vs Leonard would you still pick Floyd?


Maybe. That type of style could make Duran quit.



tommygun711 said:


> Well he certainly looked undersized against Trout. The point is he will be smaller than his opponent most of the time at 154, like Floyd. 154 is a perfect weight for Canelo while we all know Cotto was better at 147.


Ok, what's your point in all of this? Duran wasn't exactly McCallum sized at 154


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Ok, what's your point in all of this? Duran wasn't exactly McCallum sized at 154


My point? The point is Cotto is a small SMW. Floyd hasn't faced anyone gr8 at 154, though Canelo is substantial. Duran's form in the Moore fight would make it competitive against Floyd, he can't do worse than Cotto. Before anyone says Floyd just wanted to stand in the trenches with Cotto, Cotto's pressure also made that happen.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> My point? The point is Cotto is a small SMW. Floyd hasn't faced anyone gr8 at 154, though Canelo is substantial. Duran's form in the Moore fight would make it competitive against Floyd, he can't do worse than Cotto. Before anyone says Floyd just wanted to stand in the trenches with Cotto, Cotto's pressure also made that happen.


Cotto did good in the fight. He still won 3 rounds. People will score 2 rounds for Cotto just because he bloodied Floyds nose in one of them :lol:


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Concrete said:


> Wilfred Benitez
> Medrick Taylor - Floyd UD
> Kosta Tzyu - Floyd late TKO
> Aron Pryor - Pryor UD
> ...


Answers in quote :good


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Cotto did good in the fight. He still won 3 rounds. People will score 2 rounds for Cotto just because he bloodied Floyds nose in one of them :lol:


Oh don't get me wrong Cotto got thoroughly beat. I remember at few people on ESB had it 7-5 Floyd which is ridiculous to me. We all saw Cotto's (limited) success in the trenches against Floyd. I think Duran can elevate that. Duran would still get beat I think, either 8-4 or 7-5.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Oh don't get me wrong Cotto got thoroughly beat. I remember at few people on ESB had it 7-5 Floyd which is ridiculous to me. We all saw Cotto's (limited) success in the trenches against Floyd. I think Duran can elevate that. Duran would still get beat I think, either 8-4 or 7-5.


:good

How about Nelson vs Mayweather below 135?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Answers in quote :good


What can Pryor do better than Chavez? Chavez would be better than Pryor on the inside and would be better defensively.

Conversely, what can nelson do to Floyd that makes it hard for you to decide. I think nelson lacks the style to really beat Floyd with. He's not going to go full retard on the inside and he won't box with Floyd.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> What can Pryor do better than Chavez? Chavez would be better than Pryor on the inside and would be better defensively.
> 
> Conversely, what can nelson do to Floyd that makes it hard for you to decide


Pryor has the black bottle.

I've not really thought the Nelson fight through.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Pryor has the black bottle.
> 
> I've not really thought the Nelson fight through.


Nelson would make the fight semi uncomfortable, this is a guy that would willingly come through Floyd's best artillery to land his own awkward punches and give Floyd a look he usually doesn't deal with. Nelson has limited success but lacks the style to really beat Floyd convincingly.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Armstrong.
> 
> Then we have the Duran's, Napoles, Chavez
> 
> I personally see Armstrong considerably greater than those guys


Durans defence is better technically imo. He did more cute things than Armstrong and had a higher guard so he parried and blocked a lot more. Armstrong didn't just roll effectively he put his head into the chest after ducking which made him very hard to hit. He was more crude in his defence but still very effective.
Very different styles but you got me thinking on that one.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Maybe. That type of style could make Duran quit.
> 
> Ok, what's your point in all of this? Duran wasn't exactly McCallum sized at 154


so you pick Floyd regardless of weight then?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Nelson would make the fight semi uncomfortable, this is a guy that would willingly come through Floyd's best artillery to land his own awkward punches and give Floyd a look he usually doesn't deal with. Nelson has limited success but lacks the style to really beat Floyd convincingly.


I agree with this actually, he is very awkward, and very patient. It'd probably be quite dull. I feel the same way about a Benitez fight.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

rossco said:


> Durans defence is better technically imo. He did more cute things than Armstrong and had a higher guard so he parried and blocked a lot more. Armstrong didn't just roll effectively he put his head into the chest after ducking which made him very hard to hit. He was more crude in his defence but still very effective.
> Very different styles but you got me thinking on that one.


Yeah give it a look, especially Armstrong messing Ross up, he absolutely styles on him at times.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I agree with this actually, he is very awkward, and very patient. It'd probably be quite dull. I feel the same way about a Benitez fight.


Benitez is a bit different though since he is faster than Nelson & more skilled overall, he's more defensive minded. It'd be a chess match and they Benitez is basically on par with Floyd as far as talent is concerned IMO. Even chess match that I can't pick a winner in


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Benitez is a bit different though since he is faster than Nelson & more skilled overall, he's more defensive minded. It'd be a chess match and they Benitez is basically on par with Floyd as far as talent is concerned IMO. Even chess match that I can't pick a winner in


Yeah that's a tough one. Benitez was inconsistent, hard to gauge.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pimp C said:


> LOL Duran apologist are funny to me. I love giving them a hard time.


I indirectly give the Duran boys a hard time sometimes, not that I mean to. Duran had flashier head movement sure but that's because he was usually always focussing on offensive, and it got him hit far more and put on his ass hard in his prime.

Floyd's defense is economically superior by far. 2 absolutely different styles of defense. I'd rather Mayweather's defense TBH


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Yeah give it a look, especially Armstrong messing Ross up, he absolutely styles on him at times.


:good


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Featherweight vs Welterweight for the belt :yep



rossco said:


> :good


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## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

Just read through this, pretty amusing. That Tliang fella needs some reading comprehension... or perhaps something more:lol:

He had his chance to fight an ATG in his prime and he didn't do it. The reasons do not change the fact. Pac doesn't like drug tests and Mayweather doesn't like his promoter (seriously? :huhatsch)

For some reason I see him having more trouble with Whitaker than some others are saying. Not because he is significantly worse but Whitaker is simply better on the backfoot. His jab and even more so his lateral movement are the stand out reasons why he could deal with pressure from Chavez in the middle of the ring, while Mayweather is on the ropes far more due to his ingrained straight line style.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd with his speed and counterpunching and defense would have a good chance with anyone in history. His problem is he does not have championship confidence to actually get in the ring with them. If he never fights anyone, what does it matter who he could beat. Donald Curry in his prime maybe could have beaten Hearns or Duran or Leonard at welterweight, but since he did not it really does not mean much. Those guys persevered more and fought the big fights.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Concrete said:


> Wilfred Benitez
> Medrick Taylor
> Kosta Tzyu
> Aron Pryor
> ...


to be honest. Of this list? I think 3 guys could beat Floyd, and the others he could beat . Benitez,Arguello and Whitaker could beat him. Benitez and Whitaker with speed and Pernell added to that southpaw. Arguello I can see break down and stop Floyd. They were jhad styles good for Floyd and wouldn't let Floyd control the action. Pryor is the fight I am not sure about. Could go either way, and I think Floyd could outbox Taylor.Tzyzu, Chavez.Manny,Nelson and Duran.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> Floyd with his speed and counterpunching and defense would have a good chance with anyone in history. His problem is he does not have championship confidence to actually get in the ring with them. If he never fights anyone, what does it matter who he could beat. Donald Curry in his prime maybe could have beaten Hearns or Duran or Leonard at welterweight, but since he did not it really does not mean much. Those guys persevered more and fought the big fights.


I really don't think Curry could beat any of those guys to be fair, and that's at his prime weight. We're talking Mayweather jumping 2 divisions form his prime to beat Hearns or Leonard, could Curry beat Robinson or even McCallum?


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I really don't think Curry could beat any of those guys to be fair, and that's at his prime weight. We're talking Mayweather jumping 2 divisions form his prime to beat Hearns or Leonard, could Curry beat Robinson or even McCallum?


Turbo. I agree. Yeah I was making more a point that Floyd could beat guys, but since he didn't fight them we will never know. I think Floyd could beat most of the guys on the list. He has a great style of hitting and not getting hit and controlling the action with speed and foot movement. I agree with you, Curry could not beat Robinson or McCallum. As it turned out. Mike McCallum beat Curry worse by setting up that left hook than had he wore him out, just because he outsmarted him to get that punch in.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> Turbo. I agree. Yeah I was making more a point that Floyd could beat guys, but since he didn't fight them we will never know. I think Floyd could beat most of the guys on the list. He has a great style of hitting and not getting hit and controlling the action with speed and foot movement. I agree with you, Curry could not beat Robinson or McCallum. As it turned out. Mike McCallum beat Curry worse by setting up that left hook than had he wore him out, just because he outsmarted him to get that punch in.


McCallum would smack Floyd around the head, spin him and dig him to the body :yep


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> McCallum would smack Floyd around the head, spin him and dig him to the body :yep


It would be tough for Floyd. That is the one thing about Mike, he was so economical. When he had his man backing up, he would throw body punches and always be working and breaking him down mentally. That fight would be hard to figure. Mike was so big compared to Floyd. If Floyd won he would win similar to how Roy Jones beat Mike, just by beating him to the punch and winning a UD.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> It would be tough for Floyd. That is the one thing about Mike, he was so economical. When he had his man backing up, he would throw body punches and always be working and breaking him down mentally. That fight would be hard to figure. Mike was so big compared to Floyd. If Floyd won he would win similar to how Roy Jones beat Mike, just by beating him to the punch and winning a UD.


I think McCallum beats most 154 lb'ers to ever live really. Especially guys moving up. Roy Jones is an exception because he has not just the footspeed, but the lead punches and he is almost as big or even bigger than Mac anyways


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I think McCallum beats most 154 lb'ers to ever live really. Especially guys moving up. Roy Jones is an exception because he has not just the footspeed, but the lead punches and he is almost as big or even bigger than Mac anyways


I think you are right. He was great. I would have loved to see Mike vs. guys like Winky Wright. Felix Trinidad vs. Mike. That is a fight. As for 154 history. It is hard to pick Mike over Tommy because Tommy is my favorite, so I just say a draw on that one, although I think the preHagler Hearns would have been a pickem fight. Post Hagler, Tommy seemed like he lost a little step in his legs and he started to struggle if he didn't get an early knockout. I am not sure if Hagler took his confidence a little or what, but Tommy Hearns was not quite the fighter past Hagler as he was before. But he still had power and he was fast and he could beat most guy on that.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd could very well get fucked up by Curry, I can see it.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Floyd could very well get fucked up by Curry, I can see it.


hard fight for Floyd because of Donald being naturally bigger and Donald was (at welterweight) a fast counterpuncher and technically a very good fighter. Not many defensive holes in him early in his career. It is a tough fight for Floyd. Extremely tough.


----------



## godsavethequeen (Jun 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Do you know how to compare?
> 
> Stats, how many champions they fought, how many titles. Achievements. Those can be compare.
> Without enough common grounds then you can't compare. Where are the common grounds between floyd's and duran's opponents??????????????


OMG. A few things you should know, firstly the P4P rankings have only been around since the late 80s. Back when Duran was at his best can you tell me how many belts were in each weight class? Exactly not as many as now. So Floyd beating more champions winning more belts does not mean he beat better opposition.
I have no doubt Floyd will be a top 30 ATG and top 10 P4P ATG ( because he has been through many weight divisions ) but the many people here explaining the obvious to you are right Duran > Mayweather.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

godsavethequeen said:


> OMG. A few things you should know, firstly the P4P rankings have only been around since the late 80s. Back when Duran was at his best can you tell me how many belts were in each weight class? Exactly not as many as now. So Floyd beating more champions winning more belts does not mean he beat better opposition.
> I have no doubt Floyd will be a top 30 ATG and top 10 P4P ATG ( because he has been through many weight divisions ) but the many people here explaining the obvious to you are right Duran > Mayweather.


Even though SRL got losses on his record but i do think he got better resume than Floyd bc he got wins over Hearns, Duran, and Hagler also Wilfred. Duran... he lost to SRL, Hearns, and Hagler which if he have wins over them would be much stronger. I know have a win over SRL. When you have losses that hurts your resume, it works both ways. After he became over the hill and loss some more... factor that in however you like.

Floyd can surpass/if not already passed over Duran's ring accomplishments depending on what one values.


----------



## godsavethequeen (Jun 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Even though SRL got losses on his record but i do think he got better resume than Floyd bc he got wins over Hearns, Duran, and Hagler also Wilfred. Duran... he lost to SRL, Hearns, and Hagler which if he have wins over them would be much stronger. I know have a win over SRL. When you have losses that hurts your resume, it works both ways. After he became over the hill and loss some more... factor that in however you like.
> 
> Floyd can surpass/if not already passed over Duran's ring accomplishments depending on what one values.


Its ok if you feel that way, I don't sorry. Duran was fighting in a time that there were fighters of his and higher quality, compared to what Floyd has had. Thats unfortunate for Floyds legacy.Many people will say SRR is the greatest of all time yet he had loses.

Like I said Floyd will no doubt get to be a top 30ATG and thats nothing to sniff at.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

godsavethequeen said:


> Its ok if you feel that way, I don't sorry. Duran was fighting in a time that there were fighters of his and higher quality, compared to what Floyd has had. Thats unfortunate for Floyds legacy.Many people will say SRR is the greatest of all time yet he had loses.
> 
> Like I said Floyd will no doubt get to be a top 30ATG and thats nothing to sniff at.


It is hard for me to believe that fighters have decline through the years when they are still plenty of fighters willing to put in the work and master their craft.

I'll use UFC for an example when it first appear to the scene, with most of its fighters basically just street fighters and it evolve to today with a lot more skilled due to more knowledge being passed down.

And lets assume that fighters back then is "higher quality". Still Floyd didn't fight any lower quality fighters who hadn't achieve anything since he won the title. Most of his opponents have an extensive amateur background to become champions and etc.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> It is hard for me to believe that fighters have decline through the years when they are still plenty of fighters willing to put in the work and master their craft.
> 
> I'll use UFC for an example when it first appear to the scene, with most of its fighters basically just street fighters and it evolve to today with a lot more skilled due to more knowledge being passed down.
> 
> And lets assume that fighters back then is "higher quality". Still Floyd didn't fight any lower quality fighters who hadn't achieve anything since he won the title. Most of his opponents have an extensive amateur background to become champions and etc.


Boxing has declined because of 24/36 hour rehydration periods.

A lot of fighters spend a lot of camp focusing on their weight cut rather than furthering their technique, Saul Alvarez for example.

Floyd doesn't, which is why he's leagues above everyone he faces. Nor does Pacquiao which is why he crushed weight cutting welterweights but had closer fights at 126/130 and why he was average at flyweight.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Armstrong is a tier above Duran in the rolling while being offensive category.


He absolutely isn't.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Nonsense statement. We've seen tons of fighters who are able to bob and weave to set up counters. Very few boxers in history have been able to incorporate the shoulder roll completely into their defensive *AND * offensive arsenal without looking foolish.
> 
> Oscar De La Hoya, Cotto, Berto, Broner, Zab Judah are all recent fighters who will sometimes attempt to use the shoulder roll in a fight yet mostly come off looking foolish ala Oscar vs Vargas or taking excessive punishment ala Broner vs Maidana or Berto vs Guerrero.
> 
> ...


Spurious because you don't have any historical knowledge to back this up.

Kid Chocolate, George Benton, James Toney, Sumbu Kalambay. Those names mean anything to you?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Whitaker vs Hurtado when Whitaker knew he was gonna drop a decision and was basically coming forward throwing KO bombs with every shot. Just shows what a mean little bastard he could be and his offensive brilliance when he needed to have it


Good post, people don't realise how spiteful Pea was.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Boxing has declined because of 24/36 hour rehydration periods.
> 
> A lot of fighters spend a lot of camp focusing on their weight cut rather than furthering their technique, Saul Alvarez for example.
> 
> Floyd doesn't, which is why he's leagues above everyone he faces. Nor does Pacquiao which is why he crushed weight cutting welterweights but had closer fights at 126/130 and why he was average at flyweight.


I have heard that the weigh in was moved to day before was because of health risk of guys cutting so much weight that they risk of dehydration during the fight.
Then it was abuse by promoters protecting their investment by letting their fighters being bigger than their opponents (mastering the art of cutting weight).

I think cheating the scales has been around as long as when weight classes were created. I think even that fighters has gotten better at it as well.

Again maybe it have a lot to do with it and maybe it doesn't even maybe it makes it even harder to box in today's standard fighting guys who belongs in 3 weight classes higher. Too many unknown variables.

All in all to me... boxing still look like boxing to me. Every era got their superman. Louis, Armstrong, SRR, Ali, SRL, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Jones, Bhop, Floyd, Pac, Ward, JMM and more to come.

It just seem that almost everything have evolve for the better and boxing is no exception.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> It just seem that almost everything have evolve for the better and boxing is no exception.


It's clear on film that, aside from this era's ATG's, the contenders and champions are comparatively lacking in skill.

If boxing is evolving, why was this past Olympics the first time the US team went home without a medal (for men)?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> I have heard that the weigh in was moved to day before was because of health risk of guys cutting so much weight that they risk of dehydration during the fight.
> Then it was abuse by promoters protecting their investment by letting their fighters being bigger than their opponents (mastering the art of cutting weight).
> 
> *I think cheating the scales has been around as long as when weight classes were created. I think even that fighters has gotten better at it as well.*
> ...


I think you're missing the point a little.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> It's clear on film that, aside from this era's ATG's, the contenders and champions are comparatively lacking in skill.


Exactly. Watching the welterweights and middleweights of the 60s makes most fighters today look like unskilled labourers.

Tim Bradley is seen as skilled (and he is) whereas he certainly doesn't demonstrate more ability than a Federico Thompson, Holly Mims or Joey Archer. That is plain to see by watching the footage.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I dont think protecting fighters has helped them at all.

Fighters if yesteryear had tough fights from the off and had to hone their skills over a long apprenticeship before receiving their shots. They had to earn it and battle a variety of styles.

Now any prospect is just a waiting game for a title shot and they could be facing the top men without ever stepping up in class. This hinders development.

The top level amateurs who displayed world class talent, well their always gonna be awesome, but the lower level guys who just coast through till they get their mando shot, they miss on some key development fights. 

That being said i also think it's a result of the current business model. If i was a boxer in the pro game and my promoter picked a tough unknown challenge over an easier elimination fight, I'd be looking for a new promoter.

When the best stop fighting the best they stop progressing their skills imo. I don't believe in a technical disparity across generations as much as some do, but i do believe the current business model.dictated by the alphabet soup hinders progress.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> I dont think protecting fighters has helped them at all.
> 
> Fighters if yesteryear had tough fights from the off and had to hone their skills over a long apprenticeship before receiving their shots. They had to earn it and battle a variety of styles.
> 
> ...


:clap: I agree.

A few changes could make everything as good as it ever was.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> :clap: I agree.
> 
> A few changes could make everything as good as it ever was.


It's one of the reasons I prefer the way ufc do their thing. I know there's one promoter raking it in and it isn't perfect, but to be the best mma fighter you need that ufc belt, everyone knows it. The rankings are fairly transparent and dictate that the top guys face each other.

If boxing was like that it would be awesome. I don't care how much of a wanker sullaiman's son is, if he bought out the other alphabet titles so that the only way one could be the best was by having the wbc belt, if everyone was aiming towards the same title and facing each other in eliminators and ranking fights, well that would change an awful lot, no matter how evil the guy at the helm is.

Maybe then we wouldn't have people in the top 10 p4p, a 3 division "champion", being lauded as the next best thing, yet he's never proven he can overcome a durable pressure fighter.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

I always have me a little chuckle when current fighters are compared to fighters from the past. All we do is chose the most virtuoso performances of the old fighters and compare to the current fighters who are scrutinized at a microscopic level fight to fight.

As if Duran never stuggled and looked average in fights. As if every time Pea stepped into the ring it was a masterclass exhibition.

Twenty years from now, Floyd will be treated with the same respect as fighters of the past.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

steviebruno said:


> I always have me a little chuckle when current fighters are compared to fighters from the past. All we do is chose the most virtuoso performances of the old fighters and compare to the current fighters who are scrutinized at a microscopic level fight to fight.
> 
> As if Duran never stuggled and looked average in fights. As if every time Pea stepped into the ring it was a masterclass exhibition.
> 
> Twenty years from now, Floyd will be treated with the same respect as fighters of the past.


If you llok through the threads you'll see they get pulled up for all their howlers actually.

Which fights of Duran from his lightweight reign do you think show him up? The first Viruet fight perhaps?


----------



## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Boxing has declined because of 24/36 hour rehydration periods.
> 
> A lot of fighters spend a lot of camp focusing on their weight cut rather than furthering their technique, Saul Alvarez for example.
> 
> Floyd doesn't, which is why he's leagues above everyone he faces. Nor does Pacquiao which is why he crushed weight cutting welterweights but had closer fights at 126/130 and why he was average at flyweight.


this i agree with, very good point about pacman.
but that's not the only reason floyd is head and shoulders above the rest, he's clearly much more naturally talented than most around.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> If you llok through the threads you'll see they get pulled up for all their howlers actually.
> 
> Which fights of Duran from his lightweight reign do you think show him up? The first Viruet fight perhaps?


It's not really about showing him up. I believe that Duran is top 7-10 all-time. His career wasn't some continous highlight loop as some seem to portray it as. I don't think any version of Duran handles Benitez easily, for instance. And his resume, aside from the fab 4, really isn't all that impressive. You'd think that these guys were fighting hall-of-fame competition every time out.

No. What sets them apart is that they fought each other when they had to. I have never watched an old video and said "Wow! These guys fighting today could never do that!" Most can't, but the very best still can. Prime Hopkins, prime Jones, prime Mayweather, prime Toney, etc. all measure up talent-wise... when you compare the best of the best, it isn't all that different. Less deep overall, but not all that different.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

steviebruno said:


> It's not really about showing him up. I believe that Duran is top 7-10 all-time. His career wasn't some continous highlight loop as some seem to portray it as. I don't think any version of Duran handles Benitez easily, for instance. And his resume, aside from the fab 4, really isn't all that impressive. You'd think that these guys were fighting hall-of-fame competition every time out.
> 
> No. What sets them apart is that they fought each other when they had to. I have never watched an old video and said "Wow! These guys fighting today could never do that!" Most can't, but the very best still can. Prime Hopkins, prime Jones, prime Mayweather, prime Toney, etc. all measure up talent-wise... when you compare the best of the best, it isn't all that different. Less deep overall, but not all that different.


Serious question, not taking the piss: Do you know who Ernesto Marcel is?


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Hook! said:


> this i agree with, very good point about pacman.
> but that's not the only reason floyd is head and shoulders above the rest, he's clearly much more naturally talented than most around.


don't forget Floyd has a higher level of dedication than nearly everyone. I would say only Bernard is ahead of him in dedication. Rigo(e) and Ward IDK about


----------



## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> don't forget Floyd has a higher level of dedication than nearly everyone. I would say only Bernard is ahead of him in dedication. Rigo(e) and Ward IDK about


yeah for sure
i wish interviewers asked him more technical questions
it'd be so insightful to hear a world class boxer that'd extremely skilled and dedicated talk about the technical side of boxing.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Hook! said:


> yeah for sure
> i wish interviewers asked him more technical questions
> it'd be so insightful to hear a world class boxer that'd extremely skilled and dedicated talk about the technical side of boxing.


your wish will come true once Floyd becomes a commentator

The Guerilla Dawg Commentator


----------



## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> your wish will come true once Floyd becomes a commentator
> 
> The Guerilla Dawg Commentator


that'd be so good


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Serious question, not taking the piss: Do you know who Ernesto Marcel is?


I know he beat a green Arguello and retired. Was he another virtuoso performer that I should study more?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> And his resume, aside from the fab 4, really isn't all that impressive. You'd think that these guys were fighting hall-of-fame competition every time out. .


This is just flat out wrong. Revisionist bullshit at it's finest. Buchanan, Marcel, DeJesus X3, Viruet, Fernandez, Palomino, Brooks, Moore, Barkley, and Mamby? All quality fighters, that's minus the fab 4 & Benitez.


----------



## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

Hook! said:


> yeah for sure
> i wish interviewers asked him more technical questions
> it'd be so insightful to hear a world class boxer that'd extremely skilled and dedicated talk about the technical side of boxing.


Yeah shame we never hear much on the technical side in training footage or 24/7. Not want the majority want to hear I guess but the hardcore fans would love to hear technique talk from technicians such as Mayweather, Hopkins and my boy Toney.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

steviebruno said:


> I know he beat a green Arguello and retired. Was he another virtuoso performer that I should study more?


Arguello was that green. He'd just sparked Jose Legra!

Highly recommended: skillswise he's on par with the Fab 4.

I uploaded his title fights to youtube: A 'draw' with Shibata (shocking decision) schooling of Antonio Gomez (JMM-esque counter puncher) and Arguello (one of the greatest 126lb title fights ever IMO)

He also beat future 130lb titlist Sammy Serrano.

Marcel is WELL worth a look. For my liking he was better than Eusebio Pedroza.

Take a look for yourself and most importantly enjoy an extremely well-rounded champion :good


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I understand those saying that the elite would be elite in any era..i don't really have an issue with that at all.

But in an era where those elites are sharing a division and a champion is easily identifiable the question becomes more pertinent.

Of course Floys is an incredible talent and would be no matter when he was born. But put him in this era and he'd have to be very tactical about his weight if he wants to remain unbeaten.

I'd have him at 130 whilst Duran is 135. Then him at 135 whilst Duran/Benitez are 147. I think he skips 140 altogether coz he's avoiding Pryor like the plague. Maybe when Leonard retires Floyd could do the business at 147, old Duran, old Palomino, old Cuevas, young Curry. He could go through that gauntlet. But then what? McCallum, Hearns at 154, prime Starling, Curry, Honeyghan at 147... You know what history tells us, he retires for two years till the competition thins out.

So maybe with tactical promotions he could establish a great legacy but he wouldn't be p4p ruler without taking on the fab 4 and if he does, he ain't gonna take them 4-0.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> George Benton


Some fights get better with repeated viewing.

Benton-Carter is one of the them.

Like an evenly-matched, non-weight-drained, more competitive version of Toney-Barkley.

El Feo's resume is simply staggering.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Some fights get better with repeated viewing.
> 
> Benton-Carter is one of the them.
> 
> ...


My favourite 10 round fight of all time.

Goes to show how times have changed; Carter was seen as a crude banger, yet look at the skills he demonstrates in this fight!

People are happy to laud Maidana as being improved just for lifting his hands up slightly higher.


----------



## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

Wilfred Benitez -- draw, odd style matchup, could go different ways
Medrick Taylor -- loss, 2 fast, 2 tough, 2 offensivley commited
Kosta Tzyu -- win, 7-5
Aron Pryor -- loss, 8-4 see taylor reason 
Julio Cesar Chavez -- loss, would look good early though
Manny Pacquiao -- yawn
Azumah Nelson -- win, bigger faster man
Alexis Arguello -- loss, maybe by early ko,if not a close decision

Roberto Duran
Pernell Whitaker -- big loss 2 both

record = 2-6-1


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

And _I'm_ such a Floyd hater................


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> I'm sorry youre a Floyd hater. Want a pacifier?


Flea Man falls a little short of being a true Floyd hater. He had Floyd winning the first Castillo fight and picks him to beat Arguello (one of his all-time personal favorites) at 130 lbs. Despite how he comes off at times, he's DQed from being a thorough detractor. I don't think he's blatantly biased _against_ particular fighters.



tliang1000 said:


> Guys like intentional butt and Hands of iron are cool cats. They bring up classic bouts and conduct their homework and still accept other povs. And then you got little bitches like Bozo, Mal, Flea man, and pity the fool would act like their opinion is gold and turning the forum to pure garbage. They can't even stay on topic 95 percent of the time.





Bogotazo said:


> Hands of Iron was agreeing with everything I said in your thread, and mocked many of your ridiculous phrases.





tliang1000 said:


> I don't know who you think you are or how highly u put hands of iron. Overall he doesn't act like a str8 up bitch like you do. Full of shit.


I'm just not a good poster at all.



turbotime said:


> Armstrong is a tier above Duran in the rolling while being offensive category.












Whaaaaaat? :blood

Duran is at least as great as Henry on the inside but just as adept and skilled from mid-range. His pressure was more educated and technical, he could back guys up and close distance using nothing other than an array of jab, head and shoulder feints but it was far from his only mode. He was able to box, slip/roll shots and counter in the center of the ring just as effectively. The most staggering and eye catching shots he landed on SRL didn't come when they were fighting in a phone booth. In terms of attributes, he had some seriously underrated reflexes and upper-body agility -- which he lost a great deal of after the Leonard fights (something which he couldn't of ever beat SRL without), the layoff from the No Mas fallout and permanent move up to 154 lbs.



Bogotazo said:


> Compare *best wins.*
> 
> Cotto, Hatton, DLH, Castillo, Corrales, are not better than Leonard, Buchanan, De Jesus, Palomino, Moore. Hell, the competitive loss to Hagler is more impressive than many of Floyd's wins.












Top 3 Duran win alongside SRL and Buchanan for me. It was a couple lbs north of the feather limit and pre-title for Marcel but not very far off and Duran was fucking 19 years old himself. I don't think Roberto was even at his own personal best until the mid-to-late '70's much less when he beat Marcel, Kobayashi and Buchanan. EM is an ATG both in terms of in-ring ability and standing.



steviebruno said:


> I know he beat a green Arguello and retired. Was he another virtuoso performer that I should study more?


That's probably the best win against Arguello and he did it pretty convincingly over the 15-round championship distance against one of the P4P top tier boxer-punchers who had a knack for gaining steam, getting progressively stronger - and more dangerous - the deeper a fight went. The performances themselves against Kuniaki Shibata and Antonio Gomez (a pair of top quality 126lbers) are an excellent showcase of skills too, stevie. Marcel possessed very good technique, beautiful right hand leads & sharp countering ability, quality head feints, great lateral movement, slick footwork moving in-and-out of range... The fights with Duran, Shibata, Gomez I and Arguello would look to be the only ones out there unless @sweet_scientist has more and just isn't up for sharing.  :lol: The fights with Samuel Serrano (future 130 titlist) who he allegedly dominated, Alfredo Marcano (rated feather), Leonel Hernandez (rated feather, non-title hometown robbery) and Spider Nemoto would be nice to see.


----------



## kf3 (Jul 17, 2012)

tbf a few of those guys were inconsistent, in 9 real fights i'd expect floyd do better than 2 wins.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Flea Man falls a little short of being a true Floyd hater. He had Floyd winning the first Castillo fight and picks him to beat Arguello (one of his all-time personal favorites) at 130 lbs. Despite how he comes off at times, he's DQed from being a thorough detractor. I don't think he's blatantly biased _against_ particular fighters.
> 
> I'm just not a good poster at all.
> 
> ...


Nemoto was filmed, it was on TV. Seems lost though, which is a shame as Nemoto seems an awkward little fucker and Pedroza couldn't put him away years later.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Carter was seen as a crude banger, yet look at the skills he demonstrates in this fight!


Yup, there's nothing wrong with Carter's skills.

He's not elite but as far as stalking seek-and-destroy punchers are concerned he's actually pretty good.

Griffith would agree.

Nice punch variety, okay defense, top-notch power.

Maidana is crude and vulnerable but that's why I like him:smile


----------



## Collie (Aug 16, 2013)

Impossible to tell but he wins some loses some.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm just not a good poster at all.


Nah you are good. People got their bias and that's cool. Forums would be lame if everyone thinks the same.
Everyone on here are pretty solid posters.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Nah you are good. People got their bias and that's cool. Forums would be lame if everyone thinks the same.
> Everyone on here are pretty solid posters.


You are biased as fuck sonny.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You are biased as fuck sonny.


LOL, Yeah i know.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You are biased as fuck sonny.


:lol:
@Hands of Iron, I fucking KNEW I was missing someone on the list, I couldn't put my finger on it. Shameful, especially after Flea Man has been all about Marcel these past few days, here and elsewhere.....


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :lol:
> 
> @Hands of Iron, I fucking KNEW I was missing someone on the list, I couldn't put my finger on it. Shameful, especially after Flea Man has been all about Marcel these past few days, here and elsewhere.....


He's been on him for years! Finally uploaded his fights in full about a year ago. Marcel put together a lot of quality in a very short amount of time, has one of the better resumes amongst Duran opponents and should've been the recognized Undisputed 126 Champ considering he beat the Lineal/WBC champ Shibata in Japan in a robbery draw (that is on film) followed immediately by the WBA titlist Antonio Gomez [who holds wins over Cervantes and DeJesus btw] in a fight that was even less of what a majority decision win should look like than Mayweather-Alvarez and it's also on film. He was practically the only thing standing in the way of Alexis Arguello beginning his dust up from 126-135 eight months earlier than he did and which you could argue had already started prior to the Marcel fight when he blew up Legra in a single round, because he was ready and wholly formidable. He took out Art Hafey, Ruben Olivares and Leonel Hernandez in short order immediately following. It's a great win and a great performance, against a slam dunk ATG.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> He's been on him for years! Finally uploaded his fights in full about a year ago. Marcel put together a lot of quality in a very short amount of time, has one of the better resumes amongst Duran opponents and should've been the recognized Undisputed 126 Champ considering he beat the Lineal/WBC champ Shibata in Japan in a robbery draw (that is on film) followed immediately by the WBA titlist Antonio Gomez [who holds wins over Cervantes and DeJesus btw] in a fight that was even less of what a majority decision win should look like than Mayweather-Alvarez and it's also on film. He was practically the only thing standing in the way of Alexis Arguello beginning his dust up from 126-135 eight months earlier than he did and which you could argue had already started prior to the Marcel fight when he blew up Legra in a single round, because he was ready and wholly formidable. He took out Art Hafey, Ruben Olivares and Leonel Hernandez in short order immediately following. It's a great win and a great performance, against a slam dunk ATG.


I'm gonna have to get a projector Mike Tyson style.

When was your peak of watching old fights?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm gonna have to get a projector Mike Tyson style.
> 
> When was your peak of watching old fights?


Probably around 2010-2012 or so I'd say. The amount I've watched from that point on has declined pretty significantly. I probably post more about boxing than I actually watch these days and other than live fights, you have to be pretty fucking great to hold my attention or I get bored fairly quickly. Boxing is a keen interest and my favorite sport of all-time, but the time I could be using to further my knowledge of it is to me, better spent investing into my body and health. I'm obsessed with getting what I want out of that, even more important than money. I choose Me over boxing. :lol:


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Probably around 2010-2012 or so I'd say. The amount I've watched from that point on has declined pretty significantly. I probably post more about boxing than I actually watch these days and other than live fights, you have to be pretty fucking great to hold my attention or I get bored fairly quickly. Boxing is a keen interest and my favorite sport of all-time, but the time I could be using to further my knowledge of it is to me, better spent investing into my body and health. I'm obsessed with getting what I want out of that, even more important than money. I choose Me over boxing. :lol:


If only I were so dedicated. It's too cold to start going to a new boxing gym I found, or so I tell myself. Always a new excuse. Need to listen to some Hopkins speeches and get off my ass.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> If only I were so dedicated. It's too cold to start going to a new boxing gym I found, or so I tell myself. Always a new excuse. Need to listen to some Hopkins speeches and get off my ass.


Do something, man. I could relate to what you said a while back about supposedly being in the best years of your life and still feeling like you're missing out on something. It won't even be a flash before you hit my age (27 next month), it goes by at 1000 MPH and before we know it, were already past it. Well fuck that. I don't even know how you juggle all the school, boxing and politics -- you've got to be extremely invested in it to discuss it at the level you do. At some point though, ya gotta do something that's a little more self-serving, directly within your control and beneficial to _you_. Some narcissism is healthy.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Do something, man. I could relate to what you said a while back about supposedly being in the best years of your life and still feeling like you're missing out on something. It won't even be a flash before you hit my age (27 next month), it goes by at 1000 MPH and before we know it, were already past it. Well fuck that. I don't even know how you juggle all the school, boxing and politics -- you've got to be extremely invested in it to discuss it at the level you do. At some point though, ya gotta do something that's a little more self-serving, directly within your control and beneficial to _you_. Some narcissism is healthy.


To be honest I just recover on my days off. I get so burnt out from school I Just lay around. But no more. No more.

(This snow though, holy shit :lol


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> To be honest I just recover on my days off. I get so burnt out from school I Just lay around. But no more. No more.
> 
> (This snow though, holy shit :lol


Phoenix, AZ is the GOAT from October through March :yep Summer months, different story.

I get burned out from my kids. :lol:  They past all the little drama though now and growing up. Haven't been this happy in a long time.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Phoenix, AZ is the GOAT from October through March :yep Summer months, different story.
> 
> I get burned out from my kids. :lol:  They past all the little drama though now and growing up. Haven't been this happy in a long time.


Great news man. I think I'll head to the gym this Thursday, just for you.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Great news man. I think I'll head to the gym this Thursday, just for you.


:lol:

Pics or it didn't happen. :deal Na, it's a heavy work-in-progress.

Was just thinking the other day, who would you say are the five greatest fighters since Ray Robinson last held a world championship? So roughly since 1960. :think @turbotime @Flea Man

I think my first inclination would be to rattle off Duran, Ali, SRL, Pea and Jones Jr. Perhaps Muhammad does deserve the top spot. I think Norton took the series, Frazier got the better of him in their most relevant bout and the second Liston fight was fixed. However, he pulled two of the greatest upsets of all-time against a pair of prime, Top 10 ATG Heavyweights - ten years apart - against Liston I and Foreman, also two of the most destructive fighters there's ever been. On top of throwing together a record against rated heavyweights that's comparable to Joe Louis in terms of wins and losses. The majority of those contenders were also better on average from what I've seen.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> Pics or it didn't happen. :deal Na, it's a heavy work-in-progress.
> 
> ...


Best how? We're going off of accomplishments, correct? I would put Ali on top. Those are the 5 names I'd put. Although something gives me pause about including Whitaker there.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

@Hands of Iron

CHB's greatest apologist.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I think Norton took the series, Frazier got the better of him in their most relevant bout and the second Liston fight was fixed.


I'm not sure these are good criticisms... the 3rd Frazier fight was as relevant as you can get, Ali was not prime versus Frazier the first time, but Frazier was. People still try to make a case that Ali won the first fight on points which I don't agree with. Ali convincingly beat Frazier the next two times; which IMO override the 1st fight even though the 1st fight was most important.

Norton lost the 2nd time, 7-5, no controversy there and they were both at their absolute best. Third fight you could make a case for Norton winning, but it was so close I don't think it's a robbery or anything. You would have a better case for the Young fight than the third Norton fight IMO. The fact that he avenged these losses for me puts him above Duran.

Second Liston Bout being fixed? I don't know about that one either. Liston was over the hill and Ali DID hit him with a precise, solid right hand. I dunno.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

They aren't really criticisms. They were both spent by the third fight, it probably had slightly more relevance than Leonard/Hearns II which ain't much, and mostly due to it being a rubber match. It was hardly clamored for at the time in anywhere near the same vicinity as the FOTC. Never said anything about the second Norton fight in particular, I thought he won I & III. The second Liston fight was an absolute farce IMO, though you're right about him being over the hill. Was actually throwing 'Clay' more credit considering he was given little chance to conquer the 'unstoppable monster' that was Liston going into their first fight.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Best how? We're going off of accomplishments, correct? I would put Ali on top. Those are the 5 names I'd put. Although something gives me pause about including Whitaker there.


*Gasp*


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tezel8764 said:


> @Hands of Iron
> 
> CHB's greatest apologist.


Nice post #666 .


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> *Gasp*


I mean, are there no modern fighters you have between Leonard/Duran and Whitaker then with respect to resume?

I'll have to check back my shitty rough draft of an ATG list which is pretty much only Robinson-onwards anyways.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Duran, Ali, Leonard, Jones, Pea

Honourables - 

Chavez, Monzon, Arguello, Holyfield, Spinks, McCallum

So much talent :cry


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> He took out Art Hafey, Ruben Olivares and *Leonel Hernandez *in short order immediately following. It's a great win and a great performance, against a slam dunk ATG.


One of the best Arguello's performances.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> *Gasp*


Top 10: Duran; Ali
11-20; Leonard; Pea
31-40: Chavez

I don't have Jones in the top 40.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Top 10: Duran; Ali
> 11-20; Leonard; Pea
> 31-40: Chavez
> 
> I don't have Jones in the top 40.


Monzon kicked to the curb :rofl

I remember people putting him as high as 17, 18 back in the day at the old Classic.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Monzon kicked to the curb :rofl
> 
> I remember people putting him as high as 17, 18 back in the day at the old Classic.


Sorry I just didn't mention him :lol:

I have Spinks 35-40.

Arguello, Napoles 26-30. Hagler, Griffith, Rodriguez, Spinks 31-40

Jones, Hearns, Monzon, Hopkins, Floyd Jr all in the 41-50 bracket.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I'd have Mayweather above Monzon.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Sorry I just didn't mention him :lol:
> 
> I have Spinks 35-40.
> 
> ...


I like Spinks as Top 35 guy. He didn't even need so much as 35 career fights to achieve that type of status. The #1 LHW in a H2H sense for me as well. Arguello and Napoles I'd also agree with. Griffith can't really be denied but man I do not enjoy watching his fights.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

How do you rank, Flea?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Sorry I just didn't mention him :lol:
> 
> I have Spinks 35-40.
> 
> ...


Good stuff man. 
We have a lot of the same names on both our lists.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Good stuff man.
> We have a lot of the same names on both our lists.


I love you man. But Ricardo Lopez, Khaosai Galaxy and Hasim Rahman don't make my top 100


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> How do you rank, Flea?


Everything but mainly quality of opposition beaten and manner of victory (the latter accounts for fighters skill level as well, but not necessarily aesthetic quality as HOI as touched on with Griffith)

Big achievements (like Spinks beating Holmes but not so much Jones beating Ruiz) could see a fighter withba lesser resume leapfrog a fighter who has a better one (for example I rank Foreman figher than Larry Holmes on my HW list)

It's on a case by case basis really. I get as good a grasp for every fighters career I'm considering ranking and then I say is he good enough to jump the guy ahead of him.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea and Felix like two peas in a pod when it comes to ranking :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I love you man. But Ricardo Lopez, Khaosai Galaxy and Hasim Rahman don't make my top 100





FelixTrinidad said:


> *#84 Sumbu Kalambay*
> 
> I have rarely seen someone move so effortlessly in the ring.. Wonderful fighter with a wonderful set of skills which he brought to fruition at every turn. Lightning jab and great counter abilities. Sumbu was great indeed. His two battles with McCallum* saw not one but two legitimate ATG's battle each other in a classic war of wills, skills, and drills.
> 
> ...


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lovely poem, lovely shout out, but Sumbu would not make my top 100.

Funnily enough, McCallum would (60-70 I reckon off the top of my head)

I'm not rating Burley and Holman Williams as high as most either. They are not in my top 50.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> Flea and Felix like two peas in a pod when it comes to ranking :lol:


Shut it you


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Lovely poem, lovely shout out, but Sumbu would not make my top 100.
> 
> Funnily enough, McCallum would (60-70 I reckon off the top of my head)
> 
> I'm not rating Burley and Holman Williams as high as most either. They are not in my top 50.


Holman Williams has the Greatest W Resume in Middleweight History.

Not my words, but for some reason that has stuck with me forever. :rofl It was in @the cobra LMR/Williams thread


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Holman Williams has the Greatest W Resume in Middleweight History.
> 
> Not my words, but for some reason that has stuck with me forever. :rofl It was in @the cobra LMR/Williams thread


Yeah, @McGrain thinks so and it's certainly a feasible conclusion to come to. Still, I'd rank Burley higher than him. Cocoa Kid was Holman's boss. Burley and Williams were close when they fought each other and Burley stonked Cocoa Kid and beat Zivic just before he won the WW title.

Eddie Booker would likely feature somewhere in the 90-100 range as well.

Maybe Griffith and LMR are just easier to get a handle on but I can't give Burley and Williams credit just because they weren't allowed the opportunities. Griffith was a two weight World champ. And Rodriguez aguably deserved to win their series, as well as having (IMO) a comparable middleweight ledger to both Burley and Williams.

Possibly controversial but I don't think it is. The 60s 147-160 ranks were as strong as any era in my humble opinion.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Shut it you


just call it as I see it :lol:


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Luf said:


> just call it as I see it :lol:


Bastard :lol:

Never thought I'd say this but I really do like Felix though.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pls say JMM and Mosley are in your top 100. Pls.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Pls say JMM and Mosley are in your top 100. Pls.


Mosley is definitely not. But yeah, Marquez is without a shadow of a doubt.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I used to have Barbados Joe Walcott really high. But only his P4P credentials being solidified against Joe Choynski sees him make the top 50 now.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Mosley is definitely not.


:cry



Flea Man said:


> But yeah, Marquez is without a shadow of a doubt.


:happy


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Pancho Villa wouldn't make the top 100 either. Do not believe the old timers saying he was one of the top 5 flyweights of all time. If Frankie Genaro doesn't make the top 100, nor does Villa. 

Just so everyone knows I'm not biased, I'm not even sure my man Marcel would make the top 100. Sanchez would (50-60) and Saldivar would (40-50)


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I'd have Mayweather above Monzon.


Mayweather doesn't have a cold icy stare of Escopeta.

Food for thought.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Mayweather doesn't have a cold icy stare of Escopeta.
> 
> Food for thought.


You're right.

#1 Monzon


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I like Spinks #1 LHW in a H2H sense for me as well.


- Do I look like a bitch?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I like Spinks #1 LHW in a H2H sense for me as well.


- I'm as shocked as you are, Eazy.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I like Spinks as #1 LHW in a H2H sense for me as well.


- You've gotta be fucking kidding me.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> - You've gotta be fucking kidding me.


Spinks>Foster. No doubt. Not Charles, but Foster and (possibly) Moore.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I like Spinks #1 LHW in a H2H sense for me as well.


- 23 WBO title defenses. And still no one gives a fuck. Maybe I do look like a bitch???


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> - 23 WBO title defenses. And still no one gives a fuck. Maybe I do look like a bitch???


Yeah, don't buy into him all that much. Good, but not great.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

:lol:

There isn't a time Spinks is brought up that Lester doesn't start taking multiple swipes.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> There isn't a time Spinks is brought up that Lester doesn't start taking multiple swipes.


Spinks beat the legendary Mustafa Wasajja.

No forgiveness.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Spinks beat the legendary Mustafa Wasajja.
> 
> No forgiveness.


Spinks was one of the few guys who was a beastly left hooker against southpaws.

I think the Spinks Jinx is overrated because of this.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I think the Spinks Jinx is overrated because of this.


It's overrated cuz he feasted on past-prime journeymans, battle worn legends and overrated second-rate frazier wannabes.

A completely blind one-armed Mauro Mina schooled Foster who was smack in his prime.

Spinks was an overhyped version of Saoul Mamby.

Only without Mamby's wins, chin and longevity.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> It's overrated cuz he feasted on past-prime journeymans, battle worn legends and overrated second-rate frazier wannabes.
> 
> A completely blind one-armed Mauro Mina schooled Foster who was smack in his prime.
> 
> ...


Stop trolling.

Foster was green, you said it yourself.



Lester1583 said:


> As far as I know Mina beat Foster fair and square (although Foster claimed he was robbed) which is not that hard to believe - Mina was vastly more experienced than a green Foster and he was an excellent light heavyweight - versatile, good punch, good jab, could fight on the inside.
> 
> Really one of those underrated, forgotten fighters who deserve more attention.
> 
> ...


And don't try and win me round with Mamby references. You bastard.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> And don't try and win me round with Mamby references. You bastard.


Sweet Saoul was cool jazz of boxing:


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Floyd best weight in terms of accomplishments and dominance was 130
> 
> Floyd best weight in terms of pure athleticism, power, speed, and agility, its 140lbs
> 
> ...


What a vivid imagination :-( Floyd KO's Azumah Nelson in 10 and Kostya Tszyu in 8. Ok.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Holman Williams has the Greatest W Resume in Middleweight History.


Yeah, been saying this for a number of years, I think it made it into my profile on him in the top 100 thing.



Flea Man said:


> Yeah, @McGrain thinks so and it's certainly a feasible conclusion to come to. Still, I'd rank Burley higher than him.


I think you can rank them any way you like in all honesty, either-or. It's so close between them as to be meaningless IMO.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Here's a thought that's been tickling me lately. Is it possible that Mayweather was better at _lightweight_ than Sugar Ray Robinson? I mean obviously these people who want to say he is a better welter are confused but what about at lightweight?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

McGrain said:


> Here's a thought that's been tickling me lately. Is it possible that Mayweather was better at _lightweight_ than Sugar Ray Robinson? I mean obviously these people who want to say he is a better welter are confused but what about at lightweight?


Better how?


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## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> *Probably around 2010-2012 or so I'd say. The amount I've watched from that point on has declined pretty significantly. I probably post more about boxing than I actually watch these days and other than live fights, you have to be pretty fucking great to hold my attention or I get bored fairly quickly. *Boxing is a keen interest and my favorite sport of all-time, but the time I could be using to further my knowledge of it is to me, better spent investing into my body and health. I'm obsessed with getting what I want out of that, even more important than money. I choose Me over boxing. :lol:


I could relate to that so much, I remember back in 2009 when I first started getting into career sets I would watch them from beginning to end with any free time I got but its to the point where I hardly watch them and if I do its just specific fights that I have watched a million times......And when I first got my DVD recorder two years ago I use to record fights often but now I hardly do so unless its a major fight or a favorite of mines.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> Here's a thought that's been tickling me lately. Is it possible that Mayweather was better at _lightweight_ than Sugar Ray Robinson? I mean obviously these people who want to say he is a better welter are confused but what about at lightweight?


Ray had serious physical gifts at that weight and at least beat a greater fighter than Floyd did there. Floyd was in his prime there though where Ray was getting by on sheer talent and the zest of youth.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Better how?


Better at boxing.



Flea Man said:


> Ray had serious physical gifts at that weight and at least beat a greater fighter than Floyd did there. Floyd was in his prime there though where Ray was getting by on sheer talent and the zest of youth.


Yeah, I think Ray would always beat PBF just on account of those physical differences, but to put it another way - I wonder if anyone would be willing to guess that Floyd would do better versus the field of top lightweights than a lightweight Sugar Ray would? Anyone not a weirdo I mean...very vague for obvious reasons but I think I would probably pick PBF to do better.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

McGrain said:


> Better at boxing.
> 
> Yeah, I think Ray would always beat PBF just on account of those physical differences, but to put it another way - I wonder if anyone would be willing to guess that Floyd would do better versus the field of top lightweights than a lightweight Sugar Ray would? Anyone not a weirdo I mean...very vague for obvious reasons but I think I would probably pick PBF to do better.


So H2H then.

What kind of match-ups are you envisioning? LW Floyd and LW Robinson vs Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Chavez, etc.?

Robinson would certainly outdo his Castillo performances.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> Better at boxing.
> 
> Yeah, I think Ray would always beat PBF just on account of those physical differences, but to put it another way - I wonder if anyone would be willing to guess that Floyd would do better versus the field of top lightweights than a lightweight Sugar Ray would? Anyone not a weirdo I mean...very vague for obvious reasons but I think I would probably pick PBF to do better.


Ray may've been out thought by the sassier veterans there, whereas Floyd would stand a better chance in that regard.

I'd give Ray a better chance at out fighting the monsters that may've given Floyd fits though.

Floyd is the better lightweight no doubt. As I say, he was in his prime there.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> So H2H then.
> 
> What kind of match-ups are you envisioning? LW Floyd and LW Robinson vs Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Chavez, etc.?
> 
> Robinson would certainly outdo his Castillo performances.


See my post just after yours re: Castillo. I was thinking more in a hypothetical historical sense but there's an opponent of Floyds that fits the bill for my hypothesis :good

EDIT: Although in Rays era Castillo would BE a welterweight contender.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> So H2H then.


What else were you thinking? Greatness? Or something else? Any input is interesting.



> What kind of match-ups are you envisioning? LW Floyd and LW Robinson vs Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Chavez, etc.?


That kind of thing.



> Robinson would certainly outdo his Castillo performances.


Well, he did, unquestionably, with his Sammy Angott performance...but that performance came the same year as his supposedly close call with Bob McIntire. McIntire was a journeyman.

There's an interesting balance here I think.



Flea Man said:


> Ray may've been out thought by the sassier veterans there, whereas Floyd would stand a better chance in that regard.
> 
> I'd give Ray a better chance at out fighting the monsters that may've given Floyd fits though.
> 
> Floyd is the better lightweight no doubt. As I say, he was in his prime there.


Yes, monsters, who would you put in to the ring with, say, Ike Williams with your life on the line? Based upon what we know.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

I miss the floyd from 130-135


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> EDIT: Although in Rays era Castillo would BE a welterweight contender.


How sure are you of this? Castillo was making 126 in the late 90s. When he moved up to 135 he moved all the way, of course, nobody does otherwise really, but I think there were a few pounds there.

And these guys did torture themselves to make the weight in the 40s too, Sugar himself took some risks making 135 to keep him safeish.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> What else were you thinking? Greatness? Or something else? Any input is interesting.
> 
> That kind of thing.
> 
> ...


Trickier guys who could keep away from Ike gave him hassle, so Floyd of Castillo II is a safe bet to have a good chance at a decision in this regard.

Still, Williams brings a whole set of tools to the table that wpuld make Floyd think on his feet like we haven't seen him do. Still, I'd probably pick Floyd.

Ray, in a gun fight, has a chance at overwhelming Ike as Bob Montgomery did the first time, but Ike wasn't exactly vulnerable amd Ray wasn't a proven late rounds operator at that stage.

They both have similar chances but from a stylistic viewpoint, I'm tempted, and actually a little surprised to say Floyd might be the better choice against the methodical, Louis-esque Williams.

Ike isn't likely to spark Robinson of course, and Ray will cause him problems but for all of Rays touted dancing ability he traded on his chin and fighting ability, especially then. He's not outgunned but in a war of attrition I'll take the smarter, more experienced gunslinger and at 135 that's Ike.

Thoughts?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Whilst a monster himself, Ike Williams was better at slaying the other dragons rather than turning the magicians into dust.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> How sure are you of this? Castillo was making 126 in the late 90s. When he moved up to 135 he moved all the way, of course, nobody does otherwise really, but I think there were a few pounds there.
> 
> And these guys did torture themselves to make the weight in the 40s too, Sugar himself took some risks making 135 to keep him safeish.


Castillo would've likely started at lightweight then but he was a BIG lightweight no doubt. He was always weighing in as a welter in the ring during his title fights from what I remember.

I'm nkt taking into account he'd be more malnourished in those days just transporting the 2000s version back 60 years.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

McGrain said:


> What else were you thinking? Greatness? Or something else? Any input is interesting.


Yeah I thought you might mean greatness, accomplishments.



McGrain said:


> Well, he did, unquestionably, with his Sammy Angott performance...but that performance came the same year as his supposedly close call with Bob McIntire. McIntire was a journeyman.
> 
> There's an interesting balance here I think.


There is the question of consistency. I'd say Robinson, over his career, was a bit less consistent with respect to his performances. But that comes with the reality of having well over 100 fights. Floyd is one of the most consistent we've seen IMO, but he's only fought a few fights at the weight and his welterweight/Jr. Middleweight career (where many of his top wins are) is peppered with layoffs and vacations. I think activity is what gave past eras the edge in well-rounded technical ability, but that Robinson could benefit from the modern treatment and make sure he shows up to his best each time out.

On Floyd against monsters and Robinson against thinkers, I think Robinson was plenty savvy to deal with some of the craftier fighters at the weight. And, assuming he'd have the same power coming from incredible leverage behind his shots, timing one good shot would serve as a much more useful resource for changing the fight around than Floyd's brain & skill might against some of the more physically imposing challenges he'd face.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Thoughts?


I think you're along the right lines, but I'd feel so much better about picking Floyd over these guys if he had been smashed in the face a few times. I don't _really_ know how he'd react being smashed in the face and the ribs really hard and maybe dropped or badly hurt but not dropped. I don't really know his strategies, and slow Mosley hitting him then doing nothing doesn't do it for me, no.

I think his chin is equal to most things, but what about his sense, his instincts, his physical memory. Tricky.



Flea Man said:


> Castillo would've likely started at lightweight then but he was a BIG lightweight no doubt. He was always weighing in as a welter in the ring during his title fights from what I remember.
> 
> I'm nkt taking into account he'd be more malnourished in those days just trantsporting the 2000s version back 60 years.


The thing is, if a guy isn't MASSIVE at the weight, freakish, I think it becomes the following question:

Does the hurt he'd do himself weighing in at 135 on the day outweigh the advantages of not taking on men 12lbs heavier?

If the answer is "no", I think you'd see Castillo at lw for quite a while.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I don't think Ray learned all that much from 135 to 147 either. But the real veteran geniuses of lightweight would more of an edge on him than the freaks would. 

As for accomplishments at the weight, Ray nearly had (or did have) more fights before he moved up to welterweight than Floydbhas had in his hole career.

In what, two years?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> I think you're along the right lines, but I'd feel so much better about picking Floyd over these guys if he had been smashed in the face a few times. I don't _really_ know how he'd react being smashed in the face and the ribs really hard and maybe dropped or badly hurt but not dropped. I don't really know his strategies, and slow Mosley hitting him then doing nothing doesn't do it for me, no.
> 
> I think his chin is equal to most things, but what about his sense, his instincts, his physical memory. Tricky.
> 
> ...


Well Castillo didn't look much different when he flunked making the weight for Corrales.

And he looked bigger than Floyd, who most consider a natural lightweight in any era (when he was at 135, contrary to popular belief I think he looks a wonderful physical specimen at 147 and would be comfortable there in any era)

I guess if Lamotta could make 160 then JLC could make 135 but if he was fighting once a month? I reckon he'd be at 147 a fair amount. EDIT: Even if he doesn't hit 147 every fight, there'd be no LWW buffer for him if we're puttung him in Rays era.

Beau Jack might be a better comparison than Lamotta. There was a tank who could make 135.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> There is the question of consistency.


But also the question of experience. McIntire was supposed to have been a clever boxer able to unpick opponents and make it difficult for them, a classic spoiler with an eye for an opening. He was a fighter entirely bereft of punch and short on speed who got by on his wits. It's an interesting one, that.



Flea Man said:


> I don't think Ray learned all that much from 135 to 147 either. But the real veteran geniuses of lightweight would more of an edge on him than the freaks would.


Well, I've identified his graduation night as October 1941, when he got one over on Fritzie Zivic in a fight that (according to some sources) was very very close indeed. Robinson took a rematch and it was his next fight out and he was like a different man - Robinson himself claimed these were the most important learning fights of his career.

And yes, this was before he took the plunge at 147 and after he'd out-grown 135. So I got to disagree with you and see him as an enhanced fighter up at 147.



> As for accomplishments at the weight, Ray nearly had (or did have) more fights before he moved up to welterweight than Floydbhas had in his hole career.
> 
> In what, two years?


Fierce.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> But also the question of experience. McIntire was supposed to have been a clever boxer able to unpick opponents and make it difficult for them, a classic spoiler with an eye for an opening. He was a fighter entirely bereft of punch and short on speed who got by on his wits. It's an interesting one, that.
> 
> Well, I've identified his graduation night as October 1941, when he got one over on Fritzie Zivic in a fight that (according to some sources) was very very close indeed. Robinson took a rematch and it was his next fight out and he was like a different man - Robinson himself claimed these were the most important learning fights of his career.
> 
> ...


Nice work indeed.

Which also lends a bit of weight to my guess that he may have been less suited against the trickier types at 135.


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Nice work indeed.
> 
> Which also lends a bit of weight to my guess that he may have been less suited against the trickier types at 135.


I would have to agree with you. Pre-Zivic i'd name him vulnerable to many of the best at the weight. You have to name Mayweather unproven though...better, or worse?

Probably an unanswerable question but it's nagged me a bit. I may look into it more.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> I would have to agree with you. Pre-Zivic i'd name him vulnerable to many of the best at the weight. You have to name Mayweather unproven though...better, or worse?
> 
> Probably an unanswerable question but it's nagged me a bit. I may look into it more.


What if you give Floyd his 130 work as well?


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## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> What if you give Floyd his 130 work as well?


Well, it's like I said, I feel uncomfortable making certain picks where he hasn't been tested by a big puncher I trust to have a chance to finish him. But you can definitely make a good stab.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

McGrain said:


> Well, it's like I said, I feel uncomfortable making certain picks where he hasn't been tested by a big puncher I trust to have a chance to finish him. But you can definitely make a good stab.


I'm the same. I do not the mindset of many that he'd 'make the adjustments' and hold off fresher, more dynamic offensive operators than the Shane that badly buzzed him.

Like Ike Williams for instance.

Or Chavez, if you're looking at the Jesus Chavez and 1st Castillo fight.

I think Floyds skills get the benefit of the doubt too much. Sure, there'd be an evening out process against the very best. 'Flawless against these guys, well he'd be less so against this level' sorta thing.

But how _much?_ That's where it's hard to judge and where I usually get a lot of flak from other posters.

I for instance do not like Floyds chances against Carlos Ortiz, even taking him from the 2nd Castillo fight.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Ma... Marcel?:huh





Hands of Iron said:


> Marcel.:yep





Flea Man said:


> MAAAARCEEEEEL!!!:ibutt


Marcel's inverted one-two combination is one of the best offensive weapons featherweight has ever seen.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I'm the same. I do not the mindset of many that he'd 'make the adjustments' and hold off fresher, more dynamic offensive operators than the Shane that badly buzzed him.
> 
> Like Ike Williams for instance.
> 
> ...


This is the issue with Floyd being undefeated. The answer is all too often "oh he'd just adjust." Worse than Batman and prep time.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Arguello was that green. He'd just sparked Jose Legra!


Been watching Legra-Jofre lately (which was extremely close, by the way. And proved (again) that Jofre was a beast and Legra is criminally underrated).

And I gotta say it again.

Unless there are things we don't know about this fight - like Legra being completely shot/aged badly overnight - this is one of the most impressive rarely discussed wins by a well-known fighter.

Just proves once more Marcel was da man.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Been watching Legra-Jofre lately (which was extremely close, by the way. And proved (again) that Jofre was a beast and Legra is criminally underrated).
> 
> And I gotta say it again.
> 
> ...


Indeed. Incredible result.


----------

