# What Game Plan Do you see both Manny and Floyd Using?



## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

Manny Pac, do you see him fighting like Marquez 3, more Cautios, or like Marquez 4 and latest Algeiri fight being alot more aggressive. DO You see Manny trying to out work floyd and get off 1st, or try and counter.

Floyd - A little more difficult as has a few differant styles depending on opponent. Do you see Floyd showing a lot of Moveent, minimiing the action looking to pot shot. Or do you see him engaging alot more, perhaps even walking him down.

Also which game plans in the past do you see each fight replicating.

I See Manny Fighting like he did in Marquez 4 and Algeiri, with Spite, Darting in and out but with aggresion.

Floyd, I see fighting like Maidana 2, lots of Movement, lots of pot shotting, jumpring lead rights and left hooks and clinch.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Manny will be looking the way he did in Marquez 3. The way he looked in their 4th fight was based in the fact that Marquez came in looking for a knockout and didnt fight off the back foot out boxing him like he did in the first 3 fights. 

No disrespect to Manny but he isn't going to make Floyd fight his fight. Floyd is going to dictate this fight and its pace. 

I see Floyd mixing up his game plan. I see him jabbing and mixing up shots and fighting at long range the way he did against Marquez. We talk about Manny and his combination punching but remember, Marqur is the best combination puncher in boxing. Although he doesn't have Manny's speed he couldn't get in range to throw those combinations and the same will happen to Manny. Manny's lack of a jab is going to be a major downfall against Floyd bc you really need that to bother him.


----------



## shaunster101 (Jun 3, 2012)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Manny will be looking the way he did in Marquez 3. The way he looked in their 4th fight was based in the fact that Marquez came in looking for a knockout and didnt fight off the back foot out boxing him like he did in the first 3 fights.
> 
> No disrespect to Manny but he isn't going to make Floyd fight his fight. Floyd is going to dictate this fight and its pace.
> 
> I see Floyd mixing up his game plan. I see him jabbing and mixing up shots and fighting at long range the way he did against Marquez. We talk about Manny and his combination punching but remember, Marqur is the best combination puncher in boxing. Although he doesn't have Manny's speed he couldn't get in range to throw those combinations and the same will happen to Manny. Manny's lack of a jab is going to be a major downfall against Floyd bc you really need that to bother him.


Slow, reckless Maidana seemed to bother him. But you don't think a southpaw fighter with faster feet and hands is going to?


----------



## Floyd_g.o.a.t (Jun 11, 2013)

I personally feel Manny will be going in to win by decision. I think they will rely on Manny winning a lot of early and late rounds, people tend to forget that Manny is a great boxer as well as a great fighter. 

I feel Floyd will adjust very quickly, faster than he normally fight. As Manny starts missing his punches and begins getting countered by Floyd, I truly feel Floyd will start depicting the pace of the fight and outbox Manny without taking too much damage. I see Manny getting the crowd exciting like De La Hoya did with late flurries and combination punching, but I feel Floyd will cut off the ring and bounce off the ropes without much damage.

Floyd will win this by shut out and the problem with Roach fighters; and we've seen this before in the past with Pacquiao, Khan, Linares etc is that if Game Plan A doesn't work (Majority of the time it does) there does not seem to be Game Plan B, or if there is they find it hard to adjust to it.

Manny has the ability to trouble any fighter in the world including Floyd and he could very well fight very cautiously but I don't see Manny staying disciplined throughout 12 rounds, nor do I see Roach pushing for a game plan of that manner.

Floyd by UD.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

shaunster101 said:


> Slow, reckless Maidana seemed to bother him. But you don't think a southpaw fighter with faster feet and hands is going to?


Marcos is a stronger opponent than Manny, more reach, heavier and is a pure pressure fighter that fights behind a jab. Manny will be none of the above to Floyd. Mannys natural attributes and tendencies will allow Floyd to fight from the middle of the ring, which he wants to do anyways but Manny isn't going to make Floyd earn that type of fight due to the clash of styles.


----------



## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Manny will be looking the way he did in Marquez 3. The way he looked in their 4th fight was based in the fact that Marquez came in looking for a knockout and didnt fight off the back foot out boxing him like he did in the first 3 fights.
> 
> No disrespect to Manny but he isn't going to make Floyd fight his fight. Floyd is going to dictate this fight and its pace.
> 
> I see Floyd mixing up his game plan. I see him jabbing and mixing up shots and fighting at long range the way he did against Marquez. We talk about Manny and his combination punching but remember, Marqur is the best combination puncher in boxing. Although he doesn't have Manny's speed he couldn't get in range to throw those combinations and the same will happen to Manny. Manny's lack of a jab is going to be a major downfall against Floyd bc you really need that to bother him.


*Manny will be looking the way he did in Marquez 3. The way he looked in their 4th fight was based in the fact that Marquez came in looking for a knockout and didnt fight off the back foot out boxing him like he did in the first 3 fights. #
*No Way is this true. Manny was the one forcing that fight

I agree with you floyd is much better and dictating the pace.


----------



## shaunster101 (Jun 3, 2012)

icebergisonfire said:


> Marcos is a stronger opponent than Manny, more reach, heavier and is a pure pressure fighter that fights behind a jab. Manny will be none of the above to Floyd. Mannys natural attributes and tendencies will allow Floyd to fight from the middle of the ring, which he wants to do anyways but Manny isn't going to make Floyd earn that type of fight due to the clash of styles.


So in your mind it's a mismatch and Pacquiao doesn't have anything to bother Floyd in the slightest?


----------



## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> Marcos is a stronger opponent than Manny, more reach, heavier and is a pure pressure fighter that fights behind a jab. Manny will be none of the above to Floyd. Mannys natural attributes and tendencies will allow Floyd to fight from the middle of the ring, which he wants to do anyways but Manny isn't going to make Floyd earn that type of fight due to the clash of styles.


Is this the same Marcos that lost every round to Devon Alexander?


----------



## RDJ (Jun 27, 2012)

Floyd will fuck up Manny's strategy, say the first round or two. After that he'll walk him down.


----------



## uraharakisuke (May 16, 2013)

Floyd_g.o.a.t said:


> I personally feel Manny will be going in to win by decision. I think they will rely on Manny winning a lot of early and late rounds, people tend to forget that Manny is a great boxer as well as a great fighter.
> 
> I feel Floyd will adjust very quickly, faster than he normally fight. As Manny starts missing his punches and begins getting countered by Floyd, I truly feel Floyd will start depicting the pace of the fight and outbox Manny without taking too much damage. I see Manny getting the crowd exciting like De La Hoya did with late flurries and combination punching, but I feel Floyd will cut off the ring and bounce off the ropes without much damage.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Good post. Be interesting to see what happens if Floyd decides to walk him down at some point.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

shaunster101 said:


> So in your mind it's a mismatch and Pacquiao doesn't have anything to bother Floyd in the slightest?


Not really, styles makes fights and I've thought forever that Floyd is a stylistic nightmare for him. As in the way that JMM and Floyd are most similar to each other as far as styles and he (JMM) is obviously the one that has given Manny the most fits. Conversely, Castillo, DLH and Maidana are, without question from most fans as the three that gave Floyd his toughest fights. They share common traits in the ring, were far heavier than Floyd in the ring and they work behind a jab with an above average ability to cut off a ring. Manny, will be smaller than Floyd, doesn't work behind a jab and couldn't cut off the ring against Algeri so there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that its happening against Floyd.



JohnAnthony said:


> Is this the same Marcos that lost every round to Devon Alexander?


Styles makes fights though we saw what happened when Floyd stayed in middle for most of the second fight rather than make the miscalculation that he (Marcos) was getting tired as he said to his corner in the first fight. Most people come to fight Floyd content to see the final bell after awhile and he counted on Marcos doing the same. Floyd was obviously wrong and he had to take over the 1st fight in the latter, championship rounds which is what he did. 17 pound difference is a lot to overcome.



RDJ said:


> Floyd will fuck up Manny's strategy, say the first round or two. After that he'll walk him down.


Floyd will work from the high guard as he does all southpaws and he's going to force Manny to fight backwards, which to my recollection, he doesn't do well. Manny isn't going to outmuscle Floyd and push him back. Roach's fixation on Floyd's legs will show that they are of course not what they used to be, but still spry enough to do the job on May 2. I've always expected a comfortable victory 8-4 or 9-3 fight for Floyd and I don't expect any differently because of all the things that bother Floyd, Manny does next to none of them while Floyd is JMM in fighting style but with better everything.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

The game plans don't really matter because it all depends on which Floyd shows up. The dull one that showed up vs. Guerrero and Maidana x2 likely loses. The twitchy, hyper alert, and aggressively-postured one that showed up vs. Canelo wins fairly easily.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Manny has no choice but to box Floyd. He isn't big enough, doesn't have the jab or strength to make it rough. He is JMM small. Floyd is going to be reacting quickly and snapping like a cobra. Expect to see a world class jab May 2. I don't see Floyd waiting on Manny to lead so he can counter. I see Floyd throwing an looking to counter off of Manny countering. Manny will be over extending a lot to get to Floyd. The question is what happens when he does? We all know Floyd is the better inside fighter and we know Floyd will tie up, shove with his gloves, elbows and all the other tricks.


----------



## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> Not really, styles makes fights and I've thought forever that Floyd is a stylistic nightmare for him. As in the way that JMM and Floyd are most similar to each other as far as styles and he (JMM) is obviously the one that has given Manny the most fits. Conversely, Castillo, DLH and Maidana are, without question from most fans as the three that gave Floyd his toughest fights. They share common traits in the ring, were far heavier than Floyd in the ring and they work behind a jab with an above average ability to cut off a ring. Manny, will be smaller than Floyd, doesn't work behind a jab and couldn't cut off the ring against Algeri so there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that its happening against Floyd.
> 
> Styles makes fights though we saw what happened when Floyd stayed in middle for most of the second fight rather than make the miscalculation that he (Marcos) was getting tired as he said to his corner in the first fight. Most people come to fight Floyd content to see the final bell after awhile and he counted on Marcos doing the same. Floyd was obviously wrong and he had to take over the 1st fight in the latter, championship rounds which is what he did. 17 pound difference is a lot to overcome.
> 
> Floyd will work from the high guard as he does all southpaws and he's going to force Manny to fight backwards, which to my recollection, he doesn't do well. Manny isn't going to outmuscle Floyd and push him back. Roach's fixation on Floyd's legs will show that they are of course not what they used to be, but still spry enough to do the job on May 2. I've always expected a comfortable victory 8-4 or 9-3 fight for Floyd and I don't expect any differently because of all the things that bother Floyd, Manny does next to none of them while Floyd is JMM in fighting style but with better everything.


the only change between the 2 fights was floyd danced around the ring, pot shotted and held every chance he got against maidana in the 2nd fight

not to mention a ref the wwould step in the second maidana got in close.

It was disgracefull


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I have an idea based off of what both trainers have said recently. I'll elaborate more later. If @Bogotazo comes before I do, he'll probably explain it on the Pacquiao front.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Here's some clues on what Floyd will do






Then from Floyd Sr. http://www.fighthype.com/news/article19396.html

"This is one of the easiest damn southpaws Floyd is going to have a fight with. Man, Pacquiao, come on, man. I'm just trying to tell you, they gonna see when it's time to go in the ring. Ain't nothing to talk about. Floyd right now can definitely outthink him. Outthinking him ain't even the problem. He gonna be thinking the wrong way. When he gets to thinking, Floyd already done thought about it. Pacquiao ain't never been no thinker, man. He's just in and out, in and out, a little bit of punches, and he jumps in and out. When he jumps in and out on Floyd, he gonna run into something because Lil' Floyd gonna have it already set up. It's been set up. As a matter of fact, it's set up today already; we just waiting to throw it," Mayweather Sr. explained during a recent conversation with FightHype.com.

"He's so damn short, you ain't never seen nobody go downstairs and hit him in the body either. But see, it's time for us to change things. Nobody did it, but I guess we gonna have to be the first ones that did it. Lookie here, man, he don't ever move his head," he added. "Floyd's going to make him look like a baby. Believe me! Floyd can hit him with a jab and stuff easy, man. He's the most hittable man in the world. You gonna see that. You gonna get a chance to see exactly what I'm talking about. Floyd gonna hit him so easy. Floyd will dominate him bad. He gonna paralyze him. Floyd got a good chance of knocking him out!"


----------



## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Here's some clues on what Floyd will do
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope they have more than this up there sleeve.

1) Plenty of fighters go downstairts on Manny. Cotto and Marquez threw plenty of body shots. So did Bradley. 
2) Manny has decent head movement, he normally uses his feet to get away, 
3) Manny is not Hittable. If they are relying on him being an easy target they're in troubly. Maidana is easy to hit, not Many


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

I just want to see Floyd operates behind the jab, set up his power shots behind it, lead with the straight right when Manny isn't expecting it, constantly shoots the straight right downstairs and throw the left hook and right uppercut counter when Manny tries to throw a right hook to the body and turn. Keep the lead hand high on his face even if he bob and weaves his head. Just use it to blind his vision and pop his head with it when he jumps in a square wide stance. Keeping the lead hand on his face will not only allows you to set up your offense easier, it will make him more anxious to jump in with his 1-2-1 because he can't really see that well and will get frustrated, but all you got to do is use the lead hand to anticipate that attack, take a quick step back and side-step over a little to your left and counter him with left hook over the top.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I agree with Floyd Sr. on his tactics. Having a counter ready to meet Pacquiao as he comes in is his best bet, and the check hook is his biggest weapon. He'll likely also reset often to use his reach.


I think Manny's going to hang back a bit instead of incessantly pressing and time his ambushes, maybe letting Floyd lead a bit. Not staying totally in range but just outside of it, and once he jumps in taking a side angle. Even if he doesn't land he catches Floyd out of position at times and makes it look like he's winning the round.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

The Mosley fight isn't a fight I usually point to since Mosley was obsessively turning left to try and copy the JMM plan, which Floyd wouldn't do, but Pacquiao's tactics seem like the type he might carry over.

Now going into the fight, team Pac were probably confident Shane was way past his best. But they still had to be wary of walking into something and respected his speed. Manny's focus was on staying just outside of Mosley's longer reach and quick probing jab, and choosing when to come in, or countering by making him reach. In the first round Mosley lands a good straight to the body behind the probing jab (which Manny slips or ignores), and subsequently starts to step outside of its range. He also tends to like that lead right hook to exploit the outstretched left hand.






It's not too different to what he did against Oscar, who was also much taller and longer.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Now going into the fight, team Pac were probably confident Shane was way past his best. But they still had to be wary of walking into something and *respected his speed*. Manny's focus was on staying just outside of Mosley's longer reach and quick probing jab, and choosing when to come in, or countering by making him reach. In the first round Mosley lands a good straight to the body behind the probing jab (which Manny slips or ignores), and subsequently starts to step outside of its range. He also tends to like that lead right hook to exploit the outstretched left hand. ]


Have you read emmanuel's book. He makes it clear that facing guys with speed is a concern for him

It was an underlying motivation for my thread the other day.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> Have you read emmanuel's book. He makes it clear that facing guys with speed is a concern for him
> 
> It was an underlying motivation for my thread the other day.


Nah never read it.


----------



## Thomas Crewz (Jul 23, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> "This is one of the easiest damn southpaws Floyd is going to have a fight with. Man, Pacquiao, come on, man. I'm just trying to tell you, they gonna see when it's time to go in the ring. Ain't nothing to talk about. Floyd right now can definitely outthink him. Outthinking him ain't even the problem. He gonna be thinking the wrong way. When he gets to thinking, Floyd already done thought about it. Pacquiao ain't never been no thinker, man. He's just in and out, in and out, a little bit of punches, and he jumps in and out. When he jumps in and out on Floyd, he gonna run into something because Lil' Floyd gonna have it already set up. It's been set up. As a matter of fact, it's set up today already; we just waiting to throw it," Mayweather Sr. explained during a recent conversation with FightHype.com.


I don't think it will be quite this easy, but that is a quality quote. Esp. the last sentence


----------



## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> The Mosley fight isn't a fight I usually point to since Mosley was obsessively turning left to try and copy the JMM plan, which Floyd wouldn't do, but Pacquiao's tactics seem like the type he might carry over.
> 
> Now going into the fight, team Pac were probably confident Shane was way past his best. But they still had to be wary of walking into something and respected his speed. Manny's focus was on staying just outside of Mosley's longer reach and quick probing jab, and choosing when to come in, or countering by making him reach. In the first round Mosley lands a good straight to the body behind the probing jab (which Manny slips or ignores), and subsequently starts to step outside of its range. He also tends to like that lead right hook to exploit the outstretched left hand.
> 
> ...


good post. I just watched the 1st round of Manny Mosley. I seem to remember Manny getting stick for this like he was slipping, but he looked very good in hindsight.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Manny will be looking the way he did in Marquez 3. The way he looked in their 4th fight was based in the fact that Marquez came in looking for a knockout and didnt fight off the back foot out boxing him like he did in the first 3 fights.
> 
> No disrespect to Manny but he isn't going to make Floyd fight his fight. Floyd is going to dictate this fight and its pace.
> 
> I see Floyd mixing up his game plan. I see him jabbing and mixing up shots and fighting at long range the way he did against Marquez. We talk about Manny and his combination punching but remember, Marqur is the best combination puncher in boxing. Although he doesn't have Manny's speed he couldn't get in range to throw those combinations and the same will happen to Manny. Manny's lack of a jab is going to be a major downfall against Floyd bc you really need that to bother him.


Disagree with this. Firstly Maidana's jab disappeared and he was still able to cause problems, particularly in the first fight. Castillo utilised his jab seldom, and won the first fight in many people's eyes. Comparing Marquez's offense (with relation to his fight against Mayweather) to Pacquiao's is probably as bad a comparison you can make in boxing.

Pacquiao's gameplan, for me, needs to involve a lot of movement, a lot of in and out, and punching in bunches. If he tries for singles and left hand leads which he likes, he'll get countered with the right all night, Mayweather's best counter opportunities tend to come when opponents throw in singles. Pacquiao uses a lot of head movement and I think that will be crucial in this fight when the action is in the centre of the ring. You need to make Mayweather feel uncertain about throwing that jab. Maidana, Canelo and Guerrero all fought with bricks in their feet and were stationary targets for Mayweather to pick off with his jab. Cotto was the same in the first half of the fight, particularly the first 3 or 4 rounds which were so one-sided because of that jab. He then used a lot more movement and throwing in bunches to make it less effective and had more success.

Mayweather's gameplan will be about controlling the distance, always staying on his toes and keeping the fight in the centre of the ring. He needs to make sure Pacquiao is always at arm's length as Pacquiao is a very good counter puncher himself, especially when his opponent throws singles. The right counter is Mayweather's biggest weapon, Pacquiao sometimes comes in with a left hand lead, which I think is primed for Mayweather to counter over the top of it. His gameplan is going to be clear, fight his fight, at his pace and try to keep Pacquiao at bay with a lot of movement.


----------



## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I agree with Floyd Sr. on his tactics. Having a counter ready to meet Pacquiao as he comes in is his best bet, and the check hook is his biggest weapon. He'll likely also reset often to use his reach.
> 
> I think Manny's going to hang back a bit instead of incessantly pressing and time his ambushes, maybe letting Floyd lead a bit. Not staying totally in range but just outside of it, and once he jumps in taking a side angle. Even if he doesn't land he catches Floyd out of position at times and makes it look like he's winning the round.












Can Manny execute this to neutralise one of Floyds key weapons, the check hook?


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Ivan Drago said:


> Can Manny execute this to neutralise one of Floyds key weapons, the check hook?


Floyd leans backwards when he throws the checkhook, but forward. It's the same mistake Algieri made

Go to 6:13


----------



## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Floyd leans backwards when he throws the checkhook, but forward. It's the same mistake Algieri made
> 
> Go to 6:13


Good point, didn't think about that.

I imagine Roach would spot this and a variation could be used like: Jab, duck the counter check hook and while Floyd tries to move away come with a long straight left rather than a short hook and finish with another jab as Manny likes to do. Would certainly be more difficult to execute cleanly depending on how quick both guys are with their legs although it would definitely make the fight uncomfortable for Mayweather as he likes that shot for escaping, moving away to reset and something like this would; at least keep the pressure on as he moves away making it difficult to reset and at best be an effective counter combination.

Manny's ability to get low and come up up again with powerful attacks makes me think he can reduce the effectiveness of the check hook and Floyds willingness to throw it..


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Ivan Drago said:


> Can Manny execute this to neutralise one of Floyds key weapons, the check hook?


I've always looked at that gif as evidence that countering the counter is an option for Pac. The straight left inside the hook is a big one. Floyd throws his hook low for opponents coming on, and the path opens up. There's another similar moment he does this to Bradley and he did it to Algieri as well. Even with Floyd moving his head backwards he's open to it. Cotto popped him with a jab inside the hook just like a southpaw could with the straight. Judah also landed a straight inside the hook. It's a window at least. Floyd leaning back might actually work against him if he misjudges and Pac connects hard.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Here's some clues on what Floyd will do
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> Mayweather Sr is such an overrated coach.
> Let's see, he trains De La Hoya, and in De La Hoya's only 2 fights against top class opposition, he loses both fights.
> He takes on Hatton, tries to train him into some defensive wizard and does not prepare at all for Pacquiao's right hook, which arguably lost Ricky the fight.
> 
> ...


I agree. I don't think Floyd Sr. is a remotely good trainer. He worked well for Floyd growing up, but he hasn't done a single thing for any other fighter at all. He did decent with DLH and his lone attempt with another high caliber fighter (Hatton) was disastrous. I'm not blaming Floyd Sr. for Hatton's mistakes because Hatton was destined to lose that fight (mostly everyone can agree with this), but Hatton arguably could've done better with his fellow Brit trainer.

An important thing to point out regarding the Maidana fights is that Floyd would likely (imo) always struggle with that style. Floyd loves countering fighters on the way in, but Maidana (specifically Maidana) gets too low and compact to be countered...he essentially eliminates that possibility for Floyd. That's a massive weapon to take away from Floyd because it's one of the major components that allow him to control the distance.

Secondly, Maidana also got VERY rugged on the inside. He threw rabbit punches, held with one arm while hitting with the other, used his forearms and elbows, put his head in Floyd's face, pushed off, pushed down, tackled, and at one point even considered kneeing Floyd. He may have even bit Floyd :rofl A lot of people don't realize how much *that* stuff FUCKS with Floyd. It was the same thing with the JLC 1 fight where Castillo was doing all sorts of awkward/questionable stuff, but Maidana took it to a-whole-nother level.

Pacquiao is not as big as Maidana, Pacquiao is also not as good at avoiding shots on the way in as Maidana. Pacquiao has faster hands than Floyd and Pacman throws combinations better than most guys Floyd fights (barring Canelo). The only Floyd wins this fight is if he is successful in setting up his jab. If you watch the JMM fight, Floyd relied heavily on the jab in the first few rounds...then, throughout the fight, he would occasionally bring the jab back out to mess with his opponents offensive tactics.

If Floyd can get a good, long jab set up, Manny is in trouble. If Manny can negate/neutralize Floyd's jab (or just bypass the whole fuckin thing) Floyd is in trouble. I think this is a good fight


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> I agree. I don't think Floyd Sr. is a remotely good trainer. He worked well for Floyd growing up, but he hasn't done a single thing for any other fighter at all. He did decent with DLH and his lone attempt with another high caliber fighter (Hatton) was disastrous. I'm not blaming Floyd Sr. for Hatton's mistakes because Hatton was destined to lose that fight (mostly everyone can agree with this), but Hatton arguably could've done better with his fellow Brit trainer.
> 
> An important thing to point out regarding the Maidana fights is that Floyd would likely (imo) always struggle with that style. Floyd loves countering fighters on the way in, but Maidana (specifically Maidana) gets too low and compact to be countered...he essentially eliminates that possibility for Floyd. That's a massive weapon to take away from Floyd because it's one of the major components that allow him to control the distance.
> 
> ...


I don't think Floyd will just use a stiff jab to score points, he can use it as decoy to set up power punches. He can use it to measure the the distance to anticipate and nullify an oncoming attack. Floyd just need to make his teach advantage count and use it to his advantage. The more you keep that jab on his face to score points or to blind his vision, the easier the fight will be. He'll try to bypass it, but all you have to do is turn with him and not let him move on the inside of the jab. You have use his aggression against him and using the jab to measure the distance is the best way to do it. This is Floyd's fight to lose. If he gets stubborn and give away his reach advantage like Oscar, Algeiri, Margarito, etc, did, then that's his fault, but he has the intangibles, skills, and athleticism to make Manny fight his fight.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> I agree. I don't think Floyd Sr. is a remotely good trainer. He worked well for Floyd growing up, but he hasn't done a single thing for any other fighter at all. He did decent with DLH and his lone attempt with another high caliber fighter (Hatton) was disastrous. I'm not blaming Floyd Sr. for Hatton's mistakes because Hatton was destined to lose that fight (mostly everyone can agree with this), but Hatton arguably could've done better with his fellow Brit trainer.
> 
> An important thing to point out regarding the Maidana fights is that Floyd would likely (imo) always struggle with that style. Floyd loves countering fighters on the way in, but Maidana (specifically Maidana) gets too low and compact to be countered...he essentially eliminates that possibility for Floyd. That's a massive weapon to take away from Floyd because it's one of the major components that allow him to control the distance.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Regarding Maidana, yes, that kind of pressure fighter would give Mayweather problems though as I said, my point is that Mayweather Sr. doesn't make any bit of difference except shoot his mouth off and show us what an idiot he is.
But completely with you on Floyd's jab being key


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

From 2:22-2:25 min mark. Pay close attention to how Marquez anticipated that 1-2-1 attack by, Manny. Pay close attention to Marquez's lead hand/left hand. He kept it high like a measuring stick and neutralized that attack with the lead hand as a shield that took away Manny's set up right hand. If Marquez had kept his lead hand down without measuring the distance, Manny would've had better control and a clearer open target to throw the set-up jab, straight left-jab combo. With the Marquez's lead hand on the way, it not only blinded Manny's vision and but also alerted Marquez that the straight left was on the way. This is what you should do against a smaller/shorter fighter. Keep him at the end of your lead hand even if you aren't throwing it as a stiff scoring jab; you can control an entire fight using it. The smaller guy has to find a way to get bypass it to set up his best punch and if you have good footwork, you can use his own aggression against him fighting that way. Virgil Hunter brought it up too during the build-up for Pacquiao-Algeiri fight. Algeiri used too much unnecessary movements which actually done him more harm than good. He mostly threw a few scoring jabs here and there, a few set-up jabs for the few the straight rights downstairs that he threw, but he never used his lead hand to controlled the distance nor to anticipated an oncoming attack. He gave away his height and reach advantage fighting the way he fought. Marquez doesn't really use his reach as a measuring stick, he relies more on his side-step movements, but the the measure tactic is just as useful if you utilize it the right way.

He used the measure stick again at the 3:27-3:31 min mark to anticipated that oncoming attack. It's the little things like this that sometimes even great trainers don't really pay attention to, but sometimes these little tactics can make a big difference in a fight. It really bothers me that a lot of fighters don't use their lead hands to control a fight the way Rigondeaux and Floyd can. With the lead hand up high to an opponent's face, he's less likely to get the full leverage to set up an effective attack against you. You not only blind his frontal vision, but you keep him from using his own lead hand the way he'd prefer to use it. This is why I don't want Floyd to keep his lead hand down in the fight. I don't want him to give Manny any openings. Just completely shut off Manny's offense from the get-go with the measure stick on his face. Blinds him with it and force him to run into something. Keep use every bit of the reach advantage he has and make it count unlike the other tall fighters who gave theirs away against Manny in the past. Without the lead hand up, Manny can just move his lead foot on the inside and shoot the straight left hand through the middle because he has nothing to keep him occupy enough from getting the full leverage to gain the position he wants. With the lead hand up on his face, he will still try to get bypass it, but all you have to do is not square yourself too much to give him the opening to shoot the straight left down the middle and just counter him with the lead hand on the side of his face.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> bballchump11 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's some clues on what Floyd will do
> ...


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Floyd mostly controlled the entire fight with the use of the lead hand-measure. The times when Ortiz got off and landed some punches was because Floyd dropped the lead, but the lead hand measure made the big difference. Ortiz tried to imposed his size and walked through it at times, but he couldn't fully land accurately and set up his offense.

* The times that Ortiz landed accurately: Pay close attention to Floyd's lead hand*

Yeah, I know Ortiz landed a few right hooks over the top of Floyd's head when Floyd ducked low, but I am mostly focused on the times when they stood their ground to set up their offense.

1.) At the 1:12 min mark, Floyd threw a straight right hand downstairs and as he came up and pulled back up with his lead hand down; Ortiz just lunged in with a straight left upstairs which Floyd took well.

2.) At the 2:32-2:34 min mark, Ortiz landed a nice straight left behind the double jab set up on Floyd while Floyd was on the ropes. Floyd tried to used the lead-hand measure a few seconds earlier, but Ortiz stepped backward a bit which forced Floyd to pulled his lead hand down, but then Ortiz quickly stepped forward before Floyd could stick out the lead hand measure to anticipated the attack and got caught.

3.) At the 4:25 min mark, Ortiz landed a good straight left downstairs as soon as Floyd's lead hand was out of his face.

4.) At the 5:36-5:39 min mark, Floyd was in the high guard stance; Ortiz just took advantage of it and used his own lead hand to set up a left hand downstairs.

5.) At the 5:44 min mark, Floyd was using the high guard stance again, and Ortiz just fired a lead straight left up which probably didn't landed, but I'm just trying to show the difference between how easy it is for an opponent to set up his offense when he doesn't have to worry about trying to bypass the lead hand measure compare to trying to bypass the lead hand measure to set up his offense.

6.) At the 6:15 min mark, Floyd kept the lead hand down and Ortiz just imposed his size walked right through him and caught him on the ropes.

7.) At the 6:58 min mark, Ortiz walked through him again because Floyd kept the lead hand down again.

8.) At the 9:14 min mark, Floyd was in the high guard stance and tried to walked him, and Ortiz simply lunged in with a lead straight left.

9.) At the 10:35 min mark, Ortiz landed a good lead straight left hand when Floyd had his lead hand down and just rolled back with the punch.

10.) At the 12:54 min mark, Floyd was off balance after he threw and miss with a lead straight right, and Ortiz quickly capitalized on the minor mistake and caught Floyd on the way up as he tried to regained his balance.

11.) At the 13:46 min mark, Ortiz threw a lead straight left and again Floyd didn't had his lead hand measure up to anticipated it even though it didn't landed.

12.) At the 14:30 min mark, Floyd had landed a few good shots behind the lead hand, but by the time he was on the ropes again, he threw a right uppercut which Ortiz ducked and then quickly imposed his size to pushed Floyd back again and the rest is history.Don't start nothing, won't be nothing! Lol

*Quick adjustments Floyd made with his lead hand measure: To counter and anticipate an oncoming attack. *

1.) Floyd didn't made much adjustment since he didn't utilized the straight right hand downstairs enough after the first round, but then again, if the fight had lasted more than four rounds, he probably would've used it more. He did landed a straight right downstairs at at the 6:34 min mark and then quickly stepped forward with the lead hand.

2.) Here's how Floyd adjusted to Ortiz's attack at #2 . In round two, at 5:54 min mark, Floyd started to do a better job at measuring Ortiz on the way in and kept him from imposing with his size. Again at the 6:00 min when Ortiz got closer to him, Floyd just measured him with the lead hand and not only caught him with a straight right, but also anticipated Ortiz's bullrush ambush attack. Again at the 6:40 min mark, Ortiz tried to bullrush in, but Floyd's lead hand kept him at bay and the closer Ortiz stepped forward, the more he ate punches on the way in. He eventually closed in the gap and crowd Floyd on the ropes, but Floyd had the lead hand up which alerted him of Ortiz's ambush and Ortiz didn't landed anything.

I'll finish the whole thing later. All I can say is that, Floyd NEEDS to keep his fucking lead hand up, don't back up in a straight line on the ropes, stay a bit active and mix up his attack and he can definitely pitch a shutout. Floyd has all the advantage to control the pace of the fight. He just needs to fight smart, stop backing up on the ropes all the time, and keep that lead hand measure up to set up and anticipate oncoming attacks, constantly set up the straight right downstairs behind the set up jab, then shoot the lead straight right upstairs when Manny isn't expecting it. If Floyd just give his reach advantage away and fight with a lot of adrenaline, then he'll just make the fight closer than it needs to be.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

@Carpe Diem download instagiffer man. You put a lot of effort into that post and people should see it, so it would benefit you to attract more people to see it.

Although I definitely agree with your points-don't keep the lead hand down; like you said in your previous post that opens up an avenue for a straight left and I've mentioned before Pacquiao doesn't negotiate lead hands, he just evades them. Not backing up in straight lines is key for him as it's one of his few weaknesses although when he does engage in lateral movement he also throws much fewer punches so he'll have to be careful with the balance.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> @*Carpe Diem* download instagiffer man. You put a lot of effort into that post and people should see it, so it would benefit you to attract more people to see it.
> 
> Although I definitely agree with your points-don't keep the lead hand down; like you said in your previous post that opens up an avenue for a straight left and I've mentioned before Pacquiao doesn't negotiate lead hands, he just evades them. Not backing up in straight lines is key for him as it's one of his few weaknesses although when he does engage in lateral movement he also throws much fewer punches so he'll have to be careful with the balance.


I downloaded it, but when i tried to upload full YouTube fights on it, it doesn't work. I tried to upload short YouTube video fight highlights on it, it still doesn't work.

Also when Floyd backs up in a straight line, he's only vulnerable if he keeps his lead hand down. Manny doesn't negotiate lead hands, but he still him end up missing with the straight left 9 times out of 10 when he tries to bypass the lead hand. He can only catches you if you just standstill after he gets bypass it. Sometimes, he'll try to move in to find an angle to throw a looping right hook if you just stand in front of him and not turning with him. The few times he has caught his opponents flush was when they had their lead hands down. Dammit, if only i could put together all the things that i mentioned on a video. The problem with using the lead hand is can you can't do it for every minute and second in a 36 minutes fight. Your arm gets weary when you extend it out like that. That's why Floyd has a tendency of dropping it down by his waist or goes into the high guard stance just to rest it for a few seconds, but a fighter like Manny can take advantage of him resting just like Ortiz did at times.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> I downloaded it, but when i tried to upload full YouTube fights on it, it doesn't work. I tried to upload short YouTube video fight highlights on it, it still doesn't work.
> 
> Also when Floyd backs up in a straight line, he's only vulnerable if he keeps his lead hand down. Manny doesn't negotiate lead hands, but he still him end up missing with the straight left 9 times out of 10 when he tries to bypass the lead hand. He can only catches you if you just standstill after he gets bypass it. Sometimes, he'll try to move in to find an angle to throw a looping right hook if you just stand in front of him and not turning with him. The few times he has caught his opponents flush was when they had their lead hands down. Dammit, if only i could put together all the things that i mentioned on a video. The problem with using the lead hand is can you can't do it for every minute and second in a 36 minutes fight. Your arm gets weary when you extend it out like that. That's why Floyd has a tendency of dropping it down by his waist or goes into the high guard stance just to rest it for a few seconds, but a fighter like Manny can take advantage of him resting just like Ortiz did at times.


I see what you're saying. With the left hand up it's not as much of an issue moving backwards. Though I've seen Manny jump into a left while moving his head right on an outstretched hands numerous times, did it a bunch to Algieri.

Do you have a PC? Windows movie maker isn't hard to use at all. I used it to splice this together (which I think supports your theory).


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

@Bogotazo carpe diem deserves my spot the next time you do a poster of the year award


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> @Bogotazo carpe diem deserves my spot the next time you do a poster of the year award


He's lovely to have around.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Pacquiao has to remain unpredictable and explosive without becoming wild, Floyd has to be patient and force Pacquiao to walk into counters while Pacquiao is coming in and picking him off with his jab, right hand sweeping left hook combo when Pacquiao shells up with his high guard. 


If Pacquiao tries to fight a thinking fight like he did against Bradley in fight 2 and Marquez in fight 3 he loses. If Floyd does not get Pacquiaos respect with his power and allows Pacquiao to dictate the pace in the center of the ring he loses.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> @*Bogotazo* carpe diem deserves my spot the next time you do a poster of the year award


Thanks, man!


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I see what you're saying. With the left hand up it's not as much of an issue moving backwards. Though I've seen Manny jump into a left while moving his head right on an outstretched hands numerous times, did it a bunch to Algieri.
> 
> Do you have a PC? Windows movie maker isn't hard to use at all. I used it to splice this together (which I think supports your theory).


Good video. You should make more. One thing that i like to point out about Judah fight is that he fought in a sideway stance the same way Floyd does. He basically tried to out-Floyd Floyd. He really didn't opened up that much early on. He engaged in lead hand measurement against Floyd and did a great job countering Floyd and used his speed advantage quite well.

Floyd knew he had to systematically chopped him down because he knew Judah had too much raw speed to fully engaged with him in a high speed fight pace and wanted to be cautious enough to not walked in on one of Judah's uppercuts/hooks or straight left.

Floyd still got caught at times and Judah caught him with a nice right hook counter when Floyd was on the way out after he landed the straight right downstairs and it was a clear KD, but he eventually started to timed Judah's rhythm and took him out of the fight. At the end of the day, Floyd is a control freak in and outside the ring, he'll find a way to make you fight at the pace he wants you to fight. He has trouble controlling those rough/rugged fighters who don't play by the rules and will use dirty tactics to take Floyd out of his comfort zone, smother his offense, etc.

Manny is an amazing fighter, but he's not the type of fighter who will get dirty and resort to illegal tactics in order to gain an edge. Floyd will not have to worry about rabbit punches, wrestling and pushing, etc, against a guy like, Manny. He'll just need to analyze Manny 's rhythm and punching pattern early on and make him fight at a slower calculated pace.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> Good video. You should make more. One thing that i like to point out about Judah fight is that he fought in a sideway stance the same way Floyd does. He basically tried to out-Floyd Floyd. He really didn't opened up that much early on. He engaged in lead hand measurement against Floyd and did a great job out countering Floyd and used his speed advantage quite well.
> 
> Floyd knew he had to systematically broke him down because he knew Judah had too much raw speed to fully engaged with him in a high speed fight pace and wanted to be cautious enough to not walked in on one of Judah's uppercuts/hooks or straight left.
> 
> ...


Agree with all of that. Roach has mentioned wanting to make Manny more "feisty" but I can't imagine what that would be, beyond push-offs in the clinch or that little tap-tap-tap he does with his left as he spins out of a clinch. He doesn't have street bully instincts.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Agree with all of that. Roach has mentioned wanting to make Manny more "feisty" but I can't imagine what that would be, beyond push-offs in the clinch or that little tap-tap-tap he does with his left as he spins out of a clinch. He doesn't have street bully instincts.


Yeah, he doesn't have it in him to use rough/dirty tactics. Manny has nothing to lose. The fans would actually love it if he mixes his game plan with some rough/dirty tactics against, Floyd. Lol. He should go all out and risk it all against, Floyd. Make it a rough fight to distract him from fighting at his comfort zone.


----------



## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

Damn Zab was fast in that Floyd fight...it's been a couple years since I watched it, forgot how fast Zab was that night.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Reppin501 said:


> Damn Zab was fast in that Floyd fight...it's been a couple years since I watched it, forgot how fast Zab was that night.


Prime for prime, Zab had more raw speed than both Floyd and Pacquiao. Manny was more explosive with his movements and could explode with fast combos, but Judah had lightening raw hands speed. Floyd was very quick and a sniper with incredible reaction time in his prime, but he never displayed the same raw speed that Judah and Pacquiao displayed in their primes. In terms of pure hands speed, I think Judah has the edge over them.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

It's strange. Floyd seems to have gotten 'cleaner' over time. Robert got away with some dirty shit

Saul did't suffer any well deserved retaliations despite being a dirty sore loser

Floyd didnt overtly foul Marcos in response either even though he would have likely get away with it

It'll be best for emmanuel if Floyd plays it clean. That's another department Floyd is very good at that emmanuel lacks skills in


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> Yeah, he doesn't have it in him to use rough/dirty tactics. Manny has nothing to lose. The fans would actually love it if he mixes his game plan with some rough/dirty tactics against, Floyd. Lol. He should go all out and risk it all against, Floyd. Make it a rough fight to distract him from fighting at his comfort zone.


Yeah that would be quite the spectacle.

I wonder where each man's focus us. They each say that it's "just another fight". That can be good because confidence breeds relaxation, but you've got to think Floyd feels some pressure after all these years, and that Manny knows this is his biggest challenge and the most important fight to his fans.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> It's strange. Floyd seems to have gotten 'cleaner' over time. Robert got away with some dirty shit
> 
> Saul did't suffer any well deserved retaliations despite being a dirty sore loser
> 
> ...


Mayweather used plenty of dirty tricks against Guerrero, he constantly shoulder charged into him, he'd hit, shoulder charge and hold. Against Maidana his elbow was constantly in Maidana's face, any other fighter and the referee would warn and eventually take a point off if persistence.

Mayweather gets away with this because the referee never warns him, and the commentators never focus on these moves.

No doubt Guerrero and Maidana dish it out too but let's not pretend Floyd was a saint in those fights.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Lead hand measure up


Lead hand measure down(First gif)


Lead hand measure down

Here's a side-by-side comparison between Cotto and Marquez at the 9:00-10:00 min mark. Pay close attention to their lead hands. Cotto dropped his lead hand by his waist and gave Manny the leverage to easily sneaked through him with the set up jab; Marquez had his lead hand up to nullified the attack which not only alerted him of Manny's set up jab and instantly made him stepped back, but Marquez's lead hand nullified Manny's set up jab and the rest of Manny's punching attack altogether. I think Virgil Hunter is probably the only trainer who notice the importance of the lead hand measure tactic. I was very impressed with his in-depth strategy for Algieri. I noticed that Floyd didn't used the lead hand measure when he fought, Sharmba Mitchell. I hope he doesn't fight Manny like that. Manny isn't going to wait to get off like Mitchell did. Floyd needs to control him with the lead hand from the get-go as he did against Ortiz and in some parts against Guerrero. I really wish i could make a video to show the effectiveness of the lead hand measure tactic and how important it is for a tall fighter to use it against a shorter fighter.

I have plenty highlights that i can use to show how that lead hand measure strategy works against Manny, but I really can't find a way to make gifs out of those highlights. I have to know what type of software Wilson Kayden use to make his videos. Most of the gifs out there only shows how Manny lands the straight left hand, but as i said i have plenty of highlights that i put together to show how his offense gets nullify when you use the lead hand measure tactic against him. You can totally anticipate what he will do when you use the lead hand measure on his face.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

This is all Floyd has to do to measure/anticipate Manny's offense. Whenever Manny tries to move his head, just keep the lead hand pinpoint to his head and turn with him when he tries to get bypass it to get on the inside of the lead hand.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Since I can't find other gifs to show how the lead hand nullifies Manny's offense other than the JMM gif. I'm gonna take my time to show a few examples of the difference when Floyd uses his lead hand measure to anticipate an attack and when he doesn't.

This gif below is important to me because it shows that the lead hand measure tactic doesn't always work if you just stand there and not move out of range or not duck under the straight left hand of a southpaw.









This is the kind of reckless mistake that Floyd can't afford to make against, Manny. He did used the lead hand measure, but instead of stepping back like JMM did in that other gif or quickly ducking his head under to avoid the straight left hand after the lead hand measure had done its job to alerted him, he simply tried to roll with the punch with his head in the air and paid the price. I really hope he learns his fucking lesson and fix this terrible habit or he might get KTFO against, Pacquiao. As soon as the southpaw tries to push down to parry or punch over your lead hand with his lead hand, that should instantly alerts you to quickly step back out of range or duck under the straight left. Floyd is a great fighter who has all the intangibles to beat a lot of fighters, but sometimes he just make things harder than they have to be.

This is what Floyd has to do when he either doesn't want to move out of range or can't get back out of range in time.









In this gif, Floyd didn't used the lead hand measure to anticipate or nullify Judah's straight left; he instead used his shoulder has a shield and still was able to ducked under the straight left. I'd rather see him try to do this instead of just standing there with his chin up high begging to get hit flush like the Corley gif above.

*

When he had his lead hand measure down:*









Lead hand measure down; paid the price!


This time Floyd was in a high guard, but even though Maidana throws those awkward overhand rights, Floyd should've used the measure stick and could've anticipated that overhand right attack. Maidana had nothing prevented him from closing in to threw that overhand right. If Floyd had his lead hand on his face blocking his frontal vision, he wouldn't be able to get the full leverage to landed that punch.









Lead hand measure down, stood flat on his feet without getting out of range or ducking his head under, and he paid the price. Reckless mistake that he can't afford to constantly repeat against, Manny. I'd advise him to just keep the lead hand measure up throughout the fight and when Manny tries to throw over the top of it, parry it down, or trying to get inside of it to get the leverage to set up his offense, just simply side-step out of punching range or ducking under. The lead hand can be used as a warning system. As soon as it gets touch, you know something is coming and move out of there or duck under to slip the straight left hand.

*When Floyd used his lead hand measure to anticipate attacks, momentarily halt his opponent's forward aggression, set up his offense, and counter-punch.*









In this gif, Floyd used his lead hand measure to set up the right hand; then quickly stepped out of range. Good jab by Canelo after Floyd's lead hand was out of his frontal vision. Lol.









In this gif, Floyd used the lead hand to anticipated Ortiz's attack and countered him.









In this gif, Floyd didn't fully extended the lead hand measure, but instead he used it almost like a bait to forced Ortiz to reached in with his own lead hand and instantly countered him with straight right hand upstairs.


In this gif, Floyd used the lead hand to not only momentarilly stopped Cotto's aggression, but he used it to set up his offense effectively because he blinded Cotto's frontal vision and forward aggression.









In this gif, Floyd used it like a decoy to set up the straight right upstairs. Very similar tactic he used against, Ortiz.

I really would like to show more examples of how he used his lead hand measure, but I don't know how to make gifs. I can only use the gifs that are already out there. No one else has gifs upload of Pacquaiao missing with the straight left lead hand after he penetrated through the lead hand measure other than that JMM gif. I have plenty of highlights that shows how Floyd used the lead hand measure to get out of range and avoid punches.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm looking for a similar gif like this one. The one i am looking for was when Floyd anticipated Ortiz's attack with his lead hand measure and caught him on the way in with a straight right hand after Ortiz ran into him.


----------



## Bob1873 (Feb 25, 2015)

Imo pacs only chance is to try n get Floyd to come at him. If Pac uses his usual in out tactics I see Floyd winning. If he tries to be more aggressive I see a Floyd ko.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bob1873 said:


> Imo pacs only chance is to try n get Floyd to come at him. If Pac uses his usual in out tactics I see Floyd winning. If he tries to be more aggressive I see a Floyd ko.


He must try to take advantage when Floyd gets in his Philly-shell stance and drop his lead hand down like in that Mosley fight gif above or when Floyd goes on that high guard stance, Manny can easily sneak in a few straight lefts downstairs. I really wish i could find a way to let Floyd notice of some of the things he does really well to completely shutdown his opponent's offense and control a fight, but sometimes he abandon it some of his tactics that clearly works great for him and make things a lot harder on himself.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> This is all Floyd has to do to measure/anticipate Manny's offense. Whenever Manny tries to move his head, just keep the lead hand pinpoint to his head and turn with him when he tries to get bypass it to get on the inside of the lead hand.


It would really benefit Manny to try this move a few times to get around it and inside: 

















Or just throw DLH-esque lead lefts. And instead of always following the jab with a straight, pause a few times like in Bradley 2 so it's not so predictable. After the JMM KO they smartened up a bit with that.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> I'm looking for a similar gif like this one. The one i am looking for was when Floyd anticipated Ortiz's attack with his lead hand measure and caught him on the way in with a straight right hand after Ortiz ran into him.


This?


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> I'm looking for a similar gif like this one. The one i am looking for was when Floyd anticipated Ortiz's attack with his lead hand measure and caught him on the way in with a straight right hand after Ortiz ran into him.


This is probably it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=7m4s

*PRO TIP*: You can give us examples without going through the pain of finding GIFs. What you do is insert #t=XmYs immediately after the video's unique ID

X = the MINUTE the sequence occurs in the video
Y = the SECOND/S the sequence occurs in the video

You're essentially creating a link that takes us directly to a certain part of the video

Various segments that will be of interest to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=5m47s up to 5m52s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=6m

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=6m41s

This time Floyd senses him using the forearm, lead hand measure somewhat low, reminds me of wing chun mofuckas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=9m38s

*Of note to me is when Floyd senses the intent of offense and preemptively strikes with a LEFT HOOK*:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=12m41s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=4m42s

*Counter hooks will be just as important due to how emmanuel frequently drops his right as he notoriously lunges in for the overextended str8 left hand*


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

@Carpe Diem: Great posts dude, enjoyed reading them. Thanks for the effort :cheers


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Floyd should start by using his feet for the first couple of rounds to discourage Pac's offense. Once Pac drop his pace, Floyd should counter the shit out of pac coming in and time pac. Then small steps to avoid Pac's attack and checkhook pac coming in.


----------



## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> @*Carpe Diem*: Great posts dude, enjoyed reading them. Thanks for the effort :cheers


Likewise, nice post.


----------



## Nyanners :sad5 (Jun 8, 2012)

This thread is an incredible read.

I really envy people who can perceive what happens in fights so naturally and can just break it down.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> @*Carpe Diem*: Great posts dude, enjoyed reading them. Thanks for the effort :cheers


You're welcome! :cheers


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

@ChampionsForever Thanks, man!


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> It would really benefit Manny to try this move a few times to get around it and inside:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a good idea. The problem in these gifs is, Marquez and Mosley didn't really extended/measured their lead hands that far out.








Start at the 9:25-10:31 min mark.

Virgil Hunter is probably the best trainer in the sport. Very underrated. This is exactly what you need to do as a taller fighter fighting a short fighter. *Make your reach count* and nullify the shorter guy's offense. As Virgil pointed out, the opponent has to pass through or around your "first line of defense" to get to you. At the 10:20-10:31 min mark, the shorter fighter is going to constantly try to get on the inside of your lead foot and constantly try to sail around/under your lead hand/First-Line-of-defense to get his lead foot inside of your lead foot to set up a straight left hand through the middle, but all you have to do is keep your lead hand targeted/pinpointed at his face and turn with him, he must get bypass your lead hand to set up his offense.

With the lead hand down by your waist, there's nothing stopping the shorter fighter from easily walking through you with a 1-2 attack or throw a right hook over the top of your left shoulder. All the opponent wants do is find the right side of your face/body to hit, it's up to you to turn with him and make get through your first line of defense.

Make your right side as invisible/unavailable to reach as possible by moving the opposite angle when your opponent wants to try to move to your right side. He'll constantly move to your right to try to bypass the lead hand, you just have to move to his left with the lead hand pointing at his frontal vision. You'll constantly reset his forward aggression doing this simple tactic. He's not going to be able to get anything done offensively. He'll get frustrated and constantly jump in with wild flurries, and that's when you need to make that lead hand count as a defensive shield and use it to anticipate/measure him on the way in and make him jump into left hook or straight right meeting him on the way in.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> This is probably it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=7m4s
> 
> *PRO TIP*: You can give us examples without going through the pain of finding GIFs. What you do is insert #t=XmYs immediately after the video's unique ID
> 
> ...


Thanks, man! Great breakdown.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> This?


No. It's a gif where Floyd came forward with the lead hand and constantly pawed it to set up the straight right. It's similar to the Morales gif that i just posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnxfSSjUqVg#t=59s

Start at 0:59-1:07.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


Lee Wylie knows his boxing shit

But he could use your help for the copywriting of his videos. Some of those terms he came up with seem like they came outta some kid's imagination.

Reminds me of the 10 Floyd Mayweather Boxing Tricks video


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> That's a good idea. The problem in these gifs is, Marquez and Mosley didn't really extended/measured their lead hands that far out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah there aren't a lot of good examples, what I showed there was him being more crafty with the right jab so the measure doesn't auto-predict it, but I think side-stepping the jab is the only way to bypass it. Aside from shooting under it. Or letting Floyd measure a bit and making him lead before countering him out of position. Easier said than done.


----------



## randomwalk (Jul 13, 2013)

Great point @Carpe Diem. Manny has had success countering the jab while sliding to his right. It will be interesting to see if he can get past Mayweather's reach using the same move.


----------



## ISPEAKUMTROOTH (Jun 10, 2014)

Bogotazo said:


> It would really benefit Manny to try this move a few times to get around it and inside:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*
Thats the key imo.
A more measured approach from Manny but can he do it and stay disciplined the whole fight?
Roach needs to beast the tactics into him as during the minute off Manny sometimes seems less than focused to his instructions.
Out of all the performances i think the DLH one is the one to try to replicate.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> If Floyd does not get Pacquiaos respect with his power and allows Pacquiao to dictate the pace in the center of the ring he loses.


I agree with your post except this. This incarnation of Pac has zero chance to ever win/control the fight in the center of the ring against Floyd. Not happening.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> I agree with your post except this. This incarnation of Pac has zero chance to ever win/control the fight in the center of the ring against Floyd. Not happening.


I disagree, Pacquiao is much better at hitting on the move and using angles than he is cornering an opponent and breaking them down there. He's not doing that.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I disagree, Pacquiao is much better at hitting on the move and using angles than he is cornering an opponent and breaking them down there. He's not doing that.


Key word is incarnation. The ability to pivot defense to offense and utilize angles with his legs was one of things that made Pac special. He can still do it in sequences, and is more adept when his opponent leads to box in this manner like when he fought Rios. But when playing the aggressor, or standing his ground in the center Pac is a much more straight-forward, or time you kind of fighter. His slowing down has diminished his transition game and made him a lower output, calculated, intelligent boxer-puncher. It is less instinctual and "wild" But often times, putting yourself in position to risk reaps you more to reward. This is absolutely the case against a control freak like Floyd who desires to control as many of the variables as possible.

It is very simplistic and they are much different fighters but conceptually I use the Marciano-Moore example as good blueprint as to how to fight that certain kind of fighter. Maidana is in some ways a bit like Marciano (Hit you on the arms. Hit you anywhere if he can). Obviously I'd instruct Pac to implement angles and feint to control the geography, but the former as a staple for how to fight Floyd is largely diminished, and the activity and risk required is largely by the wayside as well. This is why for as brilliant as Carpe Diem's analysis is; he's talking creating perfection to pitch a shutout. It's because it's largely understood, and for us to talk about the technical tactics Pac needs to do in order to have success we must know things are looking rough prospectively. Tactics are and always have been important but Pac was never going to out-execute Floyd come fight night. It was tactics, preparation, and raw tangibles that was going him to prevail. Without the third ingredient, Pac has to somehow fight the most technically brilliant performance of his life to secure victory.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Key word is incarnation. The ability to pivot defense to offense and utilize angles with his legs was one of things that made Pac special. He can still do it in sequences, and is more adept when his opponent leads to box in this manner like when he fought Rios. But when playing the aggressor, or standing his ground in the center Pac is a much more straight-forward, or time you kind of fighter. His slowing down has diminished his transition game and made him a lower output, calculated, intelligent boxer-puncher. It is less instinctual and "wild" But often times, putting yourself in position to risk reaps you more to reward. This is absolutely the case against a control freak like Floyd who desires to control as many of the variables as possible.
> 
> It is very simplistic and they are much different fighters but conceptually I use the Marciano-Moore example as good blueprint as to how to fight that certain kind of fighter. Maidana is in some ways a bit like Marciano (Hit you on the arms. Hit you anywhere if he can). Obviously I'd instruct Pac to implement angles and feint to control the geography, but the former as a staple for how to fight Floyd is largely diminished, and the activity and risk required is largely by the wayside as well. This is why for as brilliant as Carpe Diem's analysis is; he's talking creating perfection to pitch a shutout. It's because it's largely understood, and for us to talk about the technical tactics Pac needs to do in order to have success we must know things are looking rough prospectively. Tactics are and always have been important but Pac was never going to out-execute Floyd come fight night. It was tactics, preparation, and raw tangibles that was going him to prevail. Without the third ingredient, Pac has to somehow fight the most technically brilliant performance of his life to secure victory.


I get where you're coming from, but even with this incarnation of Pacquiao, I think it's more likely he fights an energized fight and turns back the clock a bit than him cutting off the ring and beating Floyd up against the ropes. In fact older Manny had a better chance at doing that to begin with.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

"The greatest strength of Mayweather is his greatest weakness," Atlas said. "He's so defensive that he gives you a chance to go to work. Pacquiao's hand speed gives him an opportunity to outhustle Mayweather and grab some rounds ... Floyd's great, but Pacquiao has a chance."

Oh my God. Atlas is a genius. I've been saying this for years, though, I've used the same kind of language to describe Wlad in some respects as well. The problem here, Teddy, is that handspeed is not enough. Tactics, angles, footspeed, feints, explosiveness, and volume are all the necessary ingredients needed for Pac to beat Floyd because he lacks size, a jab, in-fighting, and is in no way masterful at cutting off the ring (But much better at controlling the fight within that space). 

It sounds simplistic and it's much harder to employ than to talk about but it's true. Unfortunately, Mayweather could beat Pac standing his ground in the center of the ring at this point. There is a reason why Marquez and Mosley forced Pac to lead. Pac, now being a bit more heavy-footed & less active must feint Floyd to the ropes and steals rounds by utilizing his handspeed with his flurrying, forcing Floyd to shell up. When initiating/leading, Pac is a little heavier-footed, and straight-forward an attacker. The importance of this is that in 2009 Mayweather in no way could've walked down Pac or stood his ground and got away with it. At least not with it costing him greatly. Now he can. 

I'm going to have to rewatch more tape maybe to break my conceived perceptions/expectations. I still think Pac has slowed more, and whatever slowing down he does is more impactful considering his style & uniqueness. Mayweather still has the legs to win ugly, but he could probably win boldly too. It's why you listed Mayweather-Maidana 2 as a good blueprint even though everyone thought Mayweather looked skittish and uncoordinated.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Bogotazo;1843812[B said:


> ]I get where you're coming from, but even with this incarnation of Pacquiao, I think it's more likely he fights an energized fight and turns back the clock a bit[/B] than him cutting off the ring and beating Floyd up against the ropes. In fact older Manny had a better chance at doing that to begin with.


I hope you're right. But that sort of begs another question. We're hoping to some extent that Pac can conjure up some of the old magic. Basically, we're admitting that he needs to do more and be more than what we've seen from him on film. That requires a little bit of blind faith. This fight isn't Lewis-Tyson per se, but we're coming close to blurring the lines. How much of Pac's domination of Algieri has helped shaped this perception that he's more live now because he looked so good in his last two fights, particularly his last fight. We're talking about a guy that literally lived in his parent's basement. And yeah, some had hopes for that guy but let's be honest we were hoping too much, and we were seeing a little writing on the wall for the other guy maybe. I don't know. But Pac out-boxing Algieri from the center of the ring without having to exert all that much doesn't not give me renewed confidence in his chances against Mayweather. And beating Bradley 8-4 in a rematch that took far more effort than the first go round doesn't impress me enough either. The Bradley win was great because of the context of it. Pac had just recently got stopped by Marquez, and showed he win with intelligence and patience. That was impressive, but the performance in and of it self would leave you thinking that he'd get pretty soundly beaten by Mayweather. The performance did nothing to bestow hope in his performance against someone of Floyd's caliber.

I so hope I'm wrong and Pac can conjure some old magic up though. I really want to know what Roach has up his sleeve. The problem is strategy means little if you do not have the powers to execuete the game-plan.


----------



## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

i dont think floyd will have to adapt at all. he's going to fight his fight from the beginning. it's too dangerous to try and adapt against manny. floyd's gonna be moving a lot, he's going to be turning manny a lot. he'll be looking to get off first and then counter when manny tries to counter. manny has very good power and can turn the fight around with a single punch. obviously floyd is aware of this.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> I hope you're right. But that sort of begs another question. We're hoping to some extent that Pac can conjure up some of the old magic. Basically, we're admitting that he needs to do more and be more than what we've seen from him on film. That requires a little bit of blind faith. This fight isn't Lewis-Tyson per se, but we're coming close to blurring the lines. How much of Pac's domination of Algieri has helped shaped this perception that he's more live now because he looked so good in his last two fights, particularly his last fight. We're talking about a guy that literally lived in his parent's basement. And yeah, some had hopes for that guy but let's be honest we were hoping too much, and we were seeing a little writing on the wall for the other guy maybe. I don't know. But Pac out-boxing Algieri from the center of the ring without having to exert all that much doesn't not give me renewed confidence in his chances against Mayweather. And beating Bradley 8-4 in a rematch that took far more effort than the first go round doesn't impress me enough either. The Bradley win was great because of the context of it. Pac had just recently got stopped by Marquez, and showed he win with intelligence and patience. That was impressive, but the performance in and of it self would leave you thinking that he'd get pretty soundly beaten by Mayweather. The performance did nothing to bestow hope in his performance against someone of Floyd's caliber.
> 
> I so hope I'm wrong and Pac can conjure some old magic up though. I really want to know what Roach has up his sleeve. The problem is strategy means little if you do not have the powers to execuete the game-plan.


I think we simply have to accept that Manny has to be more focused, more active, and more creative than he was against Bradley and Algieri. They weren't bad performances but they weren't hungry ones either. Against Bradley he got thrown off and was then content picking his spots and outboxing him. Against Algieri he showed effort but after a while he got comfortable, safe, and lazy, more so once the KO didn't come. You might call that blind faith but I think it will happen. If it doesn't, Floyd will win. You could take a magic wand and make them both shit; it favors Floyd. He has the reach and would make Manny lead. That's just how it is. Roach needs to prepare 5 magic tricks so that Manny doesn't get discouraged after losing a round or falling into a rhythm of following him aimlessly.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I think we simply have to accept that Manny has to be more focused, more active, and more creative than he was against Bradley and Algieri. They weren't bad performances but they weren't hungry ones either. Against Bradley he got thrown off and was then content picking his spots and outboxing him. Against Algieri he showed effort but after a while he got comfortable, safe, and lazy, more so once the KO didn't come. You might call that blind faith but I think it will happen. If it doesn't, Floyd will win. You could take a magic wand and make them both shit; it favors Floyd. He has the reach and would make Manny lead. That's just how it is. Roach needs to prepare 5 magic tricks so that Manny doesn't get discouraged after losing a round or falling into a rhythm of following him aimlessly.


Problem with that is Roach never has a Plan B for his fighters. I also don't think Floyd will let Manny beat him on volume punching either. I expect to see a super focused, sharp and mean spirited Mayweather for this bout.

If you felt like you are fighting the world, what would you do in that fight?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Problem with that is Roach never has a Plan B for his fighters. I also don't think Floyd will let Manny beat him on volume punching either. I expect to see a super focused, sharp and mean spirited Mayweather for this bout.
> 
> If you felt like you are fighting the world, what would you do in that fight?


Pacquiao isn't really a fighter receptive to plan B's, either. It's best to prepare for 100 small moves drilled while alternating between ambushing and pressing, rather than switching modes all the time or relying on one main strategy then switching to another.

Any mean-spiritness comes out late in the fight if he has Pacquiao controlled. I and others have imagined him coming out super sharp Gatti-style and just tearing into Pac but nah, I don't see that happening.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Pacquiao isn't really a fighter receptive to plan B's, either. It's best to prepare for 100 small moves drilled while alternating between ambushing and pressing, rather than switching modes all the time or relying on one main strategy then switching to another.
> 
> *Any mean-spiritness comes out late in the fight if he has Pacquiao controlled. I and others have imagined him coming out super sharp Gatti-style and just tearing into Pac but nah, I don't see that happening.*


Doesn't have to be that late.

Remember when Floyd socked Mosley in round 3s and 4. His facial expression was the embodiment of _fuck you, [email protected]_


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Problem with that is Roach never has a Plan B for his fighters. I also don't think Floyd will let Manny beat him on volume punching either. I expect to see a super focused, sharp and *mean spirited Mayweather for this bout.
> 
> If you felt like you are fighting the world, what would you do in that fight?*


It'd be best for Floyd to TKO emmanuel instead of a outright KO JUAN style.

A TKO would force emmanuel and the entire world to acknowledge that Floyd beat him into submitting


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> Doesn't have to be that late.
> 
> Remember when Floyd socked Mosley in round 3s and 4. His facial expression was the embodiment of _fuck you, [email protected]_


He can do it early I just don't think he'll take the chance that soon here. He's going to be studying first.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I think we simply have to accept that Manny has to be more focused, more active, and more creative than he was against Bradley and Algieri. They weren't bad performances but they weren't hungry ones either. Against Bradley he got thrown off and was then content picking his spots and outboxing him. Against Algieri he showed effort but after a while he got comfortable, safe, and lazy, more so once the KO didn't come. You might call that blind faith but I think it will happen. If it doesn't, Floyd will win. You could take a magic wand and make them both shit; it favors Floyd. He has the reach and would make Manny lead. That's just how it is. Roach needs to prepare 5 magic tricks so that Manny doesn't get discouraged after losing a round or falling into a rhythm of following him aimlessly.


Good post and good point. We have to hope that against Bradley he got a little content to just win by picking his spots. The problem is to me it looks like he had to work for it, at least far more than he did against Bradley the first go round. Hopefully Manny understands this is a different animal and he's going to have to bring his absolute A game. With all the drive, hunger, renewed vigor and spirit of the old Pac.

What's your takeaway of Pac saying this is just another fight though? Does that worry you or can he think it's another fight while still realizing this guy is a real test and that he has to be sharp. When I hear that I worry and think Pac's lulled into treating it like every other fight and he's just happy it's happening, especially knowing the financial benefit of the bout. He's going to get dismantled if that's the case however.



MrJotatp4p said:


> Problem with that is Roach never has a Plan B for his fighters. I also don't think Floyd will let Manny beat him on volume punching either. I expect to see a super focused, sharp and mean spirited Mayweather for this bout.
> 
> If you felt like you are fighting the world, what would you do in that fight?


This is not really fair or true. Not Roach's fault a lot of his fighters lack adaptability. Some of them have enough difficulties following the plan A.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> Doesn't have to be that late.
> 
> Remember when Floyd socked Mosley in round 3s and 4. His facial expression was the embodiment of _fuck you, [email protected]_


I hope we see the dragon come out


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Good post and good point. We have to hope that against Bradley he got a little content to just win by picking his spots. The problem is to me it looks like he had to work for it, at least far more than he did against Bradley the first go round. Hopefully Manny understands this is a different animal and he's going to have to bring his absolute A game. With all the drive, hunger, renewed vigor and spirit of the old Pac.
> 
> What's your takeaway of Pac saying this is just another fight though? Does that worry you or can he think it's another fight while still realizing this guy is a real test and that he has to be sharp. When I hear that I worry and think Pac's lulled into treating it like every other fight and he's just happy it's happening, especially knowing the financial benefit of the bout. He's going to get dismantled if that's the case however.


He did have to work for the Bradley win, he wasn't just taking it easy, although at the same time Bradley was being super awkward. Not necessarily even crafty, but awkward in the second half. Laying against the ropes and egging him on, moving his head all sorts of ways, winging bombs, doing weird upper body bends against the ropes. Not really a straightforward fight.

In terms of him saying this is just another fight, I've wondered. I posed the question elsewhere, because both fighters are saying it. That kind of thinking breeds confidence and relaxation, but this is definitely not just any other fight. And I think Manny knows that. The vigor with which he's warming up and shadowboxing shows me he is going to take it very seriously. Early and practically meaningless signs but it's something I noticed. It's also a great sign he's coming to the US already.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I hope we see the dragon come out


The dragon is out already bro. Floyd is not bullshitting around. Roger, Sr and all of them are on edge in a good way. The lawsuits and all that other bullshit is coming back on Manny with an ass whooping attached to it. Manny has a punchers chance. Floyd is going to be hyper in that ring and moving like a cobra mixed with a mongoose. From day one I thought it was horrible style matchup for Manny.

When Manny does close the distance he will get tied up, pushed or even clipped on his chin. If people think Floyd is going to let Manny out fight him or outbox him then they haven't been paying attention. manny has the chance all the other guys had and that is to hurt Floyd and finish him.

Also People still don't/won't answer one simple question that I asked on ESB and other sites. HOW DOES MANNY SHUT DOWN FLOYD'S OFFENSE? We know what Floyd can do.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>





MrJotatp4p said:


> The lawsuits and all that other bullshit is coming back on Manny with an ass whooping attached to it.


:lol::lol::rofl:roflatsch


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

If Floyd drops his lead hand constantly as he did against, Mitchell, then Manny has great chance of outworking him. When you drop your lead hand, Manny likes to take advantage of that and come forward with his pawing jab to throw the straight left or throw a right hook over the shoulder, follow by the straight left. Manny always gets defensive when you constantly pokes him with the range-finder jab. 

The more you paws it at him and follow up, the quicker he'll get discouraged and start thinking more, throwing less. If Floyd works behind the lead hand from the get-go, then it's a wrap. Floyd will see everything coming if he constantly keeps Manny at the end of the lead hand. One thing for sure, Floyd Sr will make sure he keeps that lead hand up and will tell him to throw a few stiff jabs mix in with pawing jabs.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> If Floyd drops his lead hand constantly as he did against, Mitchell, then Manny has great chance of outworking him. When you drop your lead hand, Manny likes to take advantage of that and come forward with his pawing jab to throw the straight left or throw a right hook over the shoulder, follow by the straight left. Manny always gets defensive when you constantly pokes him with the range-finder jab.
> 
> The more you paws it at him and follow up, the quicker he'll get discouraged and start thinking more, throwing less. If Floyd works behind the lead hand from the get-go, then it's a wrap. Floyd will see everything coming if he constantly keeps Manny at the end of the lead hand. One thing for sure, Floyd Sr will make sure he keeps that lead hand up and will tell him to throw a few stiff jabs mix in with pawing jabs.


When I first started reading your post automatically thought of Sr who is very big on the jab and technique in general. I keep telling people that we will see a world class jab May 2


----------



## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


This guy is ridiculously knowledgable, and I dare not argue with him, but I don't really see Zab as a southpaw version of Floyd, I'd say they are very different, Zab had lost to Cory Spinks, then win a rematch, then lost to Baldomir, I don't think he was one of the best in the sport at the time he fought Mayweather, Floyd won 12-0 against Baldomir, how does the southpaw version of himself lose that same fight? I know I'm splitting hairs, but Id say the Zab fight might say a bit more than this guy is making out.


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

ChampionsForever said:


> This guy is ridiculously knowledgable, and I dare not argue with him, but I don't really see Zab as a southpaw version of Floyd, I'd say they are very different, Zab had lost to Cory Spinks, then win a rematch, then lost to Baldomir, I don't think he was one of the best in the sport at the time he fought Mayweather, Floyd won 12-0 against Baldomir, how does the southpaw version of himself lose that same fight? I know I'm splitting hairs, but Id say the Zab fight might say a bit more than this guy is making out.


Agree. Judah was never a southpaw version of Floyd. Judah definitely fought a very safety-first and high pace fight in the early rounds against, Floyd. Judah didn't squared up much in the fight.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


>


I wasn't aware combination punching was a style but I get why he's simplifying.

If you listen to him describing Pac's best qualities (In & out fighter, volume puncher, great footspeed to utilize angles), all qualities that have evidently diminished over the years, it's obvious Pac's more affected by the fight happening now as opposed to five years ago. Pac threw less than 50 punches a round versus Bradley, and when he says "it's his footspeed that makes him special" not just the handspeed, which I agree. But listen to Kellerman's observation on Pac-Bradley. It's a more heavy-footed Pac, and a more straight-forward attacking version. But really, it's a more calculated, patient, boxer-oriented version. He's describing what was of Pac's "style" and not what it is now.

He says a lot of the things I and Bogo and many others have said regarding their respective styles, triangle theory, and the differences between Marquez-Pac as opposed to Marquez-Mayweather which exists regardless of what happens in this fight, especially considering how foregone Pac is. I do think he's a slight homer, but he's fairly objective with his assessment, though it does come with a slant but I suppose we all have our preconceptions and biases. The one thing I took huge exception with is that Mayweather has superior Ring IQ than Marquez. Considering the physical talent disparity it's a rather absurd and biased assessment. There's nothing else to it.

His comment about Marquez not having the footspeed and needing to meet Pac more head-on sounds like an intelligent inference, and maybe there's a tad bit of truth to it, but I would say it's just more about Marquez's style and he's looking too much into Pac forcing Marquez to do things. It's not as if Marquez would choose not to engage if he could. Marquez adjusted his style awhile ago, and his approach is that of an aggressive-counter puncher. Making it sound like Marquez fights a certain way because he lacks the alternatives undermines Marquez's strength and paints the difference between the two fights as being that way because Marquez is "Well slower and worse and has to fight that way." Mayweather never ever lands that pitch-perfect punch against Pac Ever. That's the difference between the two fighter's and their styles.

I like how he knocks Mayweather fans simplistic Marquez-Pac triangle theory arguments that they've parroted for years.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Pac threw less than 50 punches a round versus Bradley


More often than not emmanuel volume is reduced vs opponents who can move. JUAN dropped it well before their 3rd fight.



PetetheKing said:


> The one thing I took huge exception with is that Mayweather has superior Ring IQ than Marquez. Considering the physical talent disparity it's a rather absurd and biased assessment. There's nothing else to it.


Remember when JUAN fought, 'his version of Zab' (Joel C), it took him much longer than Floyd to crack it. Joel wasn't exactly an elite of the elite athletic specimen.

JUAN didn't thoroughly figure out Timmeh either. Someone he SHOULD be smarter than.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> More often than not emmanuel volume is reduced vs opponents who can move. JUAN dropped it well before their 3rd fight.
> 
> Remember when JUAN fought, 'his version of Zab' (Joel C), it took him much longer than Floyd to crack it. Joel wasn't exactly an elite of the elite athletic specimen.
> 
> JUAN didn't thoroughly figure out Timmeh either. Someone he SHOULD be smarter than.


Nacho told JMM to give him the first rounds so he gets overconfident, and ended up knocking Casamayor out, without getting dropped himself.

I'd say JMM had Bradley figured out, started parrying that jab to the body well, he was just really rusty in exchanges. Reflexes have gone a bit.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

I can't think of a single fighter Floyd has fought that's similar to pacquiao. There's no way to compare previous performances because pac has never faced a Floyd (JMM is an offensive counter-puncher who will trade from time to time - Floyd never trades). The big question is which guy will be able to force the other guy to fight their fight?

Can pac keep the pressure on using ambush, in/out, high volume/fast combinations to force Floyd into safety-first mode? Or will Floyd be able to keep Manny at bay with movement, a good jab, potshot rights, and discouraging counters?

It's a very intriguing fight. Shame there's zero press conference, zero tv shows, zero buildup in what should be the most extravagant marketing/advertising plan ever for a fight...is just a dud.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> If Floyd drops his lead hand constantly as he did against, Mitchell, then Manny has great chance of outworking him. When you drop your lead hand, Manny likes to take advantage of that and come forward with his pawing jab to throw the straight left or throw a right hook over
> the shoulder, follow by the straight left. Manny always gets defensive when you constantly pokes him with the range-finder jab.


Sharmba Mitchell? That fight happened almost 10 years ago? Why even bring that up? Floyd's fought several southpaws since then...no reason to skip over them to quote something from 8-10 years ago.



Carpe Diem said:


> The more you paws it at him and follow up, the quicker he'll get discouraged and start thinking more, throwing less. If Floyd works behind the lead hand from the get-go, then it's a wrap. Floyd will see everything coming if he constantly keeps Manny at the end of the lead hand. One thing for sure, Floyd Sr will make sure he keeps that lead hand up and will tell him to throw a few stiff jabs mix in with pawing jabs.


A lot of people talk about how Floyd "takes away opponents best weapons" but, for whatever reason, few people acknowledge that pacman has fought bigger men just as often (in the past few years) as Floyd has. And...none of them...thought to use a jab? Or could it be that manny has a way of neutralizing the opponents jab with his in/out style? By staying out of range until he can bolt in with combinations. I don't buy that Floyd wins "so easy" because he can just jab...other guys thought of it...tried it...failed.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

ChampionsForever said:


> This guy is ridiculously knowledgable, and I dare not argue with him, but I don't really see Zab as a southpaw version of Floyd, I'd say they are very different, Zab had lost to Cory Spinks, then win a rematch, then lost to Baldomir, I don't think he was one of the best in the sport at the time he fought Mayweather, Floyd won 12-0 against Baldomir, how does the southpaw version of himself lose that same fight? I know I'm splitting hairs, but Id say the Zab fight might say a bit more than this guy is making out.


When Floyd first signed to fight Zab Judah, it was before he lost to Baldomir and he was the undisputed welterweight champion of the world. Not just lineal, undisputed. And he p4p ranked

2005

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
2. Ronald (Winky) Wright
3. Marco Antonio Barrera
4. Ricky Hatton
5. Manny Pacquiao
6. Erik Morales
7. Juan Manuel Marquez
8. Rafael Marquez
9. Jose Luis Castillo
10. Zab Judah


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

If Floyd the Dragon comes out then it's best we not forget part 2 of Naazim's plan....stepping on his tail and side-stepping the fireballs :yep


(I always thought that meant make him lead by forcing him to fight back, then circle and counter; still crazy how Naazim called Floyd's gameplan/reaction)


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Also People still don't/won't answer one simple question that I asked on ESB and other sites. HOW DOES MANNY SHUT DOWN FLOYD'S OFFENSE? We know what Floyd can do.


Stepping just outside of range and making Floyd reach while Manny picks his spots to ambush is likely his best bet.


----------



## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> When Floyd first signed to fight Zab Judah, it was before he lost to Baldomir and he was the undisputed welterweight champion of the world. Not just lineal, undisputed. And he p4p ranked
> 
> 2005
> 
> ...


Haha, I'm not just going by box rec mate, I remember and watched all of those fights, when he stopped Cory Spinks in the rematch the forums were going bat shit crazy over how Zab was the second coming of Christ, then Carlos bullied him. He wasnt top ten when he squared off against Floyd, Anyway, I digress, this doesn't bare much relevance to the fight, it's just a point I think that guy is wrong on.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> More often than not emmanuel volume is reduced vs opponents who can move. JUAN dropped it well before their 3rd fight.
> 
> Remember when JUAN fought, 'his version of Zab' (Joel C), it took him much longer than Floyd to crack it. Joel wasn't exactly an elite of the elite athletic specimen.
> 
> JUAN didn't thoroughly figure out Timmeh either. Someone he SHOULD be smarter than.


Except Bradley came after him throwing wide, looping shots, trying to conjure up a stoppage like Marquez did. Not to mention all the baiting he did on the ropes, allowing Pac to fire on him.

Bradley probably moved more in the first fight and Pac threw 200 more punches...

Bogo covered the rest succinctly. And I'd say Marquez figured Bradley out rather well but Timmy's speed, movement, and general athleticism, and Marquez's age, reflexes caused the affair to play out the way it did. Even in his prime Marquez was never a truly gifted athlete. In fact, you could argue his brother was more athletically inclined than Juan. Marquez also isn't as defensively skilled as Mayweather. But a physical toolbox says a lot about a fighter. Juan Diaz gave Marquez a good run but ultimately Marquez's combination-punching and intelligence weathered Juan's frantic pace. Mayweather would never find himself even troubled for a second against someone of Diaz's caliber (A respectable fighter on his best day). That gives you the sort of perspective on each fighter's respective physical toolbox. Unless you think Mayweather is just that much smarter in the ring.

I agree, it's a hard thing to compute or compare. Mayweather has a great Ring IQ, there is no denying that, but he does have flaws, and does make mistakes just like any other fighter. But he has tremendous skills and great physical abilities. I put only Hopkins and Marquez ahead of Floyd when it comes to Ring IQ.

Joel C was also much tougher/gamer than Zab. Rarely does a person need to crack Zab as much as just outlast.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> Can pac keep the pressure on using ambush, in/out, high volume/fast combinations to force Floyd into safety-first mode? Or will Floyd be able to keep Manny at bay with movement, a good jab, potshot rights, and discouraging counters?


Pac of 2010. Maybe...

Are there any parallel examples of fighters that rely so heavily on athleticism and aggressiveness that have sustained as well as Pac has? Most roller derby fighters with a sound foundation fade out by their early thirties. Let alone whirlwinds built up on flawed foundation, predicated on athleticism, aggressiveness, and output. Conversely, Floyd preserving with his style and age is a far more occurring and less unprecedented in pugilism history.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Pac of 2010. Maybe...
> 
> Are there any parallel examples of fighters that rely so heavily on athleticism and aggressiveness that have sustained as well as Pac has? Most roller derby fighters with a sound foundation fade out by their early thirties. Let alone whirlwinds built up on flawed foundation, predicated on athleticism, aggressiveness, and output. Conversely, Floyd preserving with his style and age is a far more occurring and less unprecedented in pugilism history.


The more I think about this fight the more I'm thinking pacman should win a narrow decision. I see it similar to the DLH fight in that pac will press the action, eat a few jabs along the way (and probably some right straights), but he will have tremendous volume/output and will land a few thudding shots of his own. Floyd is a defensive wizard, *but* age has grossly stricken his offense and that will be very clear come May 2nd. Floyd won't be able to effectively counter someone as fast as Manny and he won't be able to find Manny as easily as a lot of people are predicting.

There will not be any KO or KD (most likely), but it will be a fun fight. And for the record I think Floyd beats Manny clearly in 2010, but...at 38...tough, tough fight (even if pac isn't at his best either)


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Also People still don't/won't answer one simple question that I asked on ESB and other sites. HOW DOES MANNY SHUT DOWN FLOYD'S OFFENSE? We know what Floyd can do.


As @Bogotazo said, expect Manny to use the in/out lunging a LOT. He will stand just out of harms way on the outside (away from the jab) and either make Floyd lead (which he doesn't do well) or he will lunge in behind his own straight shots which are pretty quick even at this stage of his career. Floyd's going to have a tough time finding Manny and Floyd's speed has faded/declined much more than Manny's has so far. It's just an unrealistic perspective that either guy dominates, but I see Manny having the edge because of his youth.

Obviously he looked strong against Algieri (who is not a world class fighter by any means) and it's going to be very different fighting a guy like Floyd, but Floyd doesn't do exceptionally well against ambushers. His reflexive response is to shell up - that in itself isn't an issue, but combine that with Floyd's diminished offensive ability and Manny's combination punching/speed and all of a sudden this starts to sound a lot like the DLH fight (but nowhere near that extreme).


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I actually think Floyd looked much quicker in Maidana II, but not sure that will carry over. The game plan is the same regardless.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> The more I think about this fight the more I'm thinking pacman should win a narrow decision. I see it similar to the DLH fight in that pac will press the action, eat a few jabs along the way (and probably some right straights), but he will have tremendous volume/output and will land a few thudding shots of his own. Floyd is a defensive wizard, *but* age has grossly stricken his offense and that will be very clear come May 2nd. Floyd won't be able to effectively counter someone as fast as Manny and he won't be able to find Manny as easily as a lot of people are predicting.
> 
> There will not be any KO or KD (most likely), but it will be a fun fight. And for the record I think Floyd beats Manny clearly in 2010, but...at 38...tough, tough fight (even if pac isn't at his best either)


There is this interesting dynamic of where some Floyd fans or more pro-Floyd people seem to be more heavily accounting Floyd's decline, and almost altogether ignoring or overlooking Pac's decline.

Is there some kind of psychological phenomenon to explain this behavior. Some have stayed true to their convictions and boldly declared the fight a mismatch. For the record, I'm not sure what you're overall history is regarding how you've seen this match-up but my limited observations have seen that you're more pro-Floyd and seemingly have a disliking for Pactards (And maybe Pac a little because of them).

One guy makes a career aggressively lunging into punches, getting his eardrum busted, getting knocked out, etc. The other is a defensive wizard, minimalist, that takes one or two more shots than normal and has every Floyd fan clamoring about of how past it he is. Yeah, I agree Floyd's coordination and combination punching have suffered lately. But you're description of how you think this fight will play out is comic-book like. Pac's going to walk through some Floyd jabs and straight rights and overwhelm him with activity. Floyd's not going to just him do that, and it's not like Pac's going to control the geography of the fight. Floyd's legs have held up far better than Pac's, and Pac's legs are his lifeline as a fighter. The only thing Floyd's done wrong for his longevity is eat fast food, and how much of is that really for the cameras and just a cheat meal.

Everyone likes to bring up Floyd's age. I'm finding it more and more humorous how little Floyd fans understand style dynamics and boxing history, especially considering how incessantly they parrot Pactards for having a lack of knowledge. The fact remains Floyd is far more preserved as a fighter than Pac, and his style is much more suited for longevity. Yeah, he's past his best and declined but his physical drop-offs are far less impactful to his effectiveness as a fighter because of his technical foundation & Ring IQ. Pac's physical gifts is what made him such a phenomenon as a fighter. It's impressive how he has shown an ability to adjust and be a bit more of a patient and calculated. The dearth in boxing talent has helped him sustain for as long as he has, and Pac really is a bit of a freak in his uniqueness. Pac has obviously picked up quite a bit along the way from Roach. Nevertheless, at the end of the day Pac's a faded action-warrior at this stage of his career.

Where are the parallel examples of aggressive whirlwinds, whose style are heavily reliant on athleticism and work-rate lasting as long as Pac has? The only fighter I can think of is Tyson, but his style was founded on a technical pedigree, and he had prison-stint. He also was a HW so he took big punches but also dispatched opposition fairly early avoiding any damage altogether. But Tyson was winning fights on coke without proper training. He was that much of a physical phenom.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> The more I think about this fight the more I'm thinking pacman should win a narrow decision. I see it similar to the DLH fight in that pac will press the action, eat a few jabs along the way (and probably some right straights), but he will have tremendous volume/output and will land a few thudding shots of his own. Floyd is a defensive wizard, *but* age has grossly stricken his offense and that will be very clear come May 2nd. Floyd won't be able to effectively counter someone as fast as Manny and he won't be able to find Manny as easily as a lot of people are predicting.
> 
> There will not be any KO or KD (most likely), but it will be a fun fight. And for the record I think Floyd beats Manny clearly in 2010, but...at 38...tough, tough fight (even if pac isn't at his best either)


Man I totally disagree. Manny has to be in range to land those combinations and Floyd has aged but so has Manny. In fact Manny has declined way more. Manny gets dominated from the outside and all that lunging is going to get him clipped. Floyd still has his reflexes, can still move his feet well and still has incredible timing. Also Manny is not a inside fighter but more of a mid range which is where he is dangerous for Floyd.

Maidana is the type of fighter who will be in your face coming behind a jab and getting rough. Manny will do non of those things. In fact I expect a fight going at Floyd's pace with Manny having a hard time getting off but that's just my opinion.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> There is this interesting dynamic of where some Floyd fans or more pro-Floyd people seem to be more heavily accounting Floyd's decline, and almost altogether ignoring or overlooking Pac's decline.
> 
> Is there some kind of psychological phenomenon to explain this behavior. Some have stayed true to their convictions and boldly declared the fight a mismatch. For the record, I'm not sure what you're overall history is regarding how you've seen this match-up but my limited observations have seen that you're more pro-Floyd and seemingly have a disliking for Pactards (And maybe Pac a little because of them).
> 
> ...


Agree! Everyone likes to talk about Floyd this and that but rarely mention how Manny has faded. Even in his last fight he looked slow with his feet and punches at times. Technique, IQ will play a huge part in this fight and Floyd has the style to prevail.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> There is this interesting dynamic of where some Floyd fans or more pro-Floyd people seem to be more heavily accounting Floyd's decline, and almost altogether ignoring or overlooking Pac's decline.
> 
> Is there some kind of psychological phenomenon to explain this behavior. Some have stayed true to their convictions and boldly declared the fight a mismatch. For the record, I'm not sure what you're overall history is regarding how you've seen this match-up but my limited observations have seen that you're more pro-Floyd and seemingly have a disliking for Pactards (And maybe Pac a little because of them).
> 
> ...


You kids love to play revisionist. Maidana is a C-level fighter and he arguably won the first fight. The only reason it's not a big deal is because Weekes was so dog shit awful in that fight. Floyd held on like an amateur in their second fight and was almost looking for a way out the way he cried during the "bite". Shit was embarrassing.

Floyd has no jab against big, rugged, plodding Maidana but he's supposed to have this laser jab for Pac who, even with his declines, is faster than Maidana ever was and doesn't sit in front of you the way Maidana does. Yes Pac is going to have some trouble as evident by the Bradley fights and the JMM fights. Floyd moves well, similar to those guys, but different also. Both Bradley and JMM are willing to exchange when necessary - Floyd is never willing to do that. I just don't see all these gaping holes that everyone keeps fixating on. Yes Pac is going to get hit, but so too is Floyd. Good thing Floyd has a solid beard because he'll get caught more than a few times. No amount of Ariza shakes are going to help his softening offense either.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

ChampionsForever said:


> Haha, I'm not just going by box rec mate, I remember and watched all of those fights, when he stopped Cory Spinks in the rematch the forums were going bat shit crazy over how Zab was the second coming of Christ, then Carlos bullied him. He wasnt top ten when he squared off against Floyd, Anyway, I digress, this doesn't bare much relevance to the fight, it's just a point I think that guy is wrong on.


I get what you're saying, but all he was trying to say is that Zab was very gifted, maybe more gifted than Floyd was except for the chin and reach, and he was a counterpuncher that was familiar with Floyd from sparring. But he lacked the mental focus of Floyd.

yeah he's not exactly the southpaw version for Floyd, but the main point is that counter punchers don't like fighting counter punchers


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> You kids love to play revisionist.


I didn't even have much desire to even address this because you've already labeled me as one of "them."

I picked Maidana to beat Broner, and I always knew Maidana had a style could trouble Floyd, though, I could've never anticipated the first fight to be as close as it was.

I will give you this. Ambush tactics are something Mayweather doesn't do all that well against. Ortiz had success being unpredictable, rushing in the way he did. But Pac's not really a random rusher the way Jean Pascal or Victor Ortiz is. And he doesn't have the dimensions to really sneak anything in unexpectedly. And if Mayweather fights off the back foot that takes away Manny's in and out dart-attacks. Manny's attack work best when he utilizes the angles laterally, rather than vertically anyhow. And Pac's a much heavier-footed fighter than the one that fought Oscar.

If Pac wins four rounds in this contest I'll give it to you and admit I was wrong, and that I overlooked Floyd's reflex-decline, and declining offensive coordination. I'd expect something vintage out of Pac to make it even a 7-5 or 8-4 kind of affair.

The idea that Floyd's more past it, though, and that his style isn't more preserved or suited for longevity is frankly absurd. It also flies in the face of conventional wisdom and a 100+ years of boxing history.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> I didn't even have much desire to even address this because you've already labeled me as one of "them."
> 
> I picked Maidana to beat Broner, and I always knew Maidana had a style could trouble Floyd, though, I could've never anticipated the first fight to be as close as it was.
> 
> ...


tell me moar!


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Man I totally disagree. Manny has to be in range to land those combinations and Floyd has aged but so has Manny. In fact Manny has declined way more. Manny gets dominated from the outside and all that lunging is going to get him clipped. Floyd still has his reflexes, can still move his feet well and still has incredible timing. Also Manny is not a inside fighter but more of a mid range which is where he is dangerous for Floyd.
> 
> Maidana is the type of fighter who will be in your face coming behind a jab and getting rough. Manny will do non of those things. In fact I expect a fight going at Floyd's pace with Manny having a hard time getting off but that's just my opinion.





MrJotatp4p said:


> Agree! Everyone likes to talk about Floyd this and that but rarely mention how Manny has faded. Even in his last fight he looked slow with his feet and punches at times. Technique, IQ will play a huge part in this fight and Floyd has the style to prevail.


I've got to give you props. I'm seeing a lot of Floyd fans who were super confident now try and act like the fight is more suited to happen now for Pac than ever before. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom and 100+ years of boxing history. Obviously things can happen on a case by case basis, but generally speaking, fighters with styles predicated on athleticism & aggressiveness aren't as conducive to longevity as technical boxer-types. The examples are endless. Nobody has acknowledge the point or disputed this common understand boxing truism, though one poster sort of just said in Floyd's case it's an exception to the paradigm. Hard to logical rationalize how Floyd's physical drop-off is more detrimental to him than to a fighter whose style is built on a flawed foundation, and relies so heavily on his physical gifts, output, and aggressiveness. But alas, it's happening often.

I do not get it. Floyd fans are generally a confident bunch. I get how they may think the Pac fans are excuse-making when bringing it up and it's fine if you think Floyd would've always won but you can't deny that the realities of the dynamics are much different now than then. And that's it's pretty apparent who's worse off because of it. I guess some are hedging their bets... I don't know. I'm glad you admit Manny's feet looked slow in his last fight because Manny's legs are his lifeline. It's what allows him to transition defense to offense on an angle so effectively, and they're crucial against Floyd because Manny doesn't have a great jab, already doesn't cut the ring off well, is smallish, and doesn't in-fight. The reduced output is also crucial.



Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> tell me moar!


Not sure if serious but I've made countless posts on the subject. It's probably tiresome for some around here. If you missed them, and the examples and are serious I can re-post a lot of these examples and the rest of what I've said on the manner.


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> I get what you're saying, but all he was trying to say is that Zab was very gifted, maybe more gifted than Floyd was except for the chin and reach, and he was a counterpuncher that was familiar with Floyd from sparring. But he lacked the mental focus of Floyd.
> 
> yeah he's not exactly the southpaw version for Floyd, but the main point is that counter punchers don't like fighting counter punchers


Mental focus and or mental toughness is a talent. Just not one you can see so evidently.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Mental focus and or mental toughness is a talent. Just not one you can see so evidently.


it is and probably the most important one. I remember typing this before, but with great athlete, that's always the thing they say separate them from their peers along with how hard they work.

Deion Sanders was known for being the fastest corner in NFL history and being a freak athlete, but when asked about what made him special in his Beyond the Glory, somebody close to him responded that his ability to focus on the task at hand was better than anybody he's seen. I saw another video on youtube where a Pacquiao sparring partner was explaining that would made Manny great was how focused he was.

But when I'm talking talent in this case, I'm mostly speaking from a physical standpoint


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> it is and probably the most important one. I remember typing this before, but with great athlete, that's always the thing they say separate them from their peers along with how hard they work.
> 
> Deion Sanders was known for being the fastest corner in NFL history and being a freak athlete, but when asked about what made him special in his Beyond the Glory, somebody close to him responded that his ability to focus on the task at hand was better than anybody he's seen. I saw another video on youtube where a Pacquiao sparring partner was explaining that would made Manny great was how focused he was.
> 
> But when I'm talking talent in this case, I'm mostly speaking from a physical standpoint


Yeah, I understood. I guess I felt the urge because we always extol physical gifts but sometimes forget the talents that aren't as easy to see. I'm guilty of this too. But it's like when you we say damn Zab was so physically gifted. If only he was mentally tougher and dedicated more. But that's a talent. It'd be like saying damn fighter X is tough, if only he was faster. But nobody really talks like that (Though punch-power is a case where people do because it's harder to figure out I guess).


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> A lot of people talk about how Floyd "takes away opponents best weapons" but, for whatever reason, few people acknowledge that pacman has fought bigger men just as often (in the past few years) as Floyd has. And...none of them...thought to use a jab? Or could it be that manny has a way of neutralizing the opponents jab with his in/out style? By staying out of range until he can bolt in with combinations. I don't buy that Floyd wins "so easy" because he can just jab...other guys thought of it...tried it...failed.


Pacquiao doesn't get enough credit on here for the way he counters the jab with his left and then ducks to the side to avoid any follow-up. He also uses a lot side to side head movement, particularly in fights against rangier guys, to make his opponent think twice about throwing it. Whether he can counter Mayweather's jab, which is fast, is another thing but let's not pretend Pacquiao has not dealt with guys who are rangier and managed to take away their jab.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> I've got to give you props. I'm seeing a lot of Floyd fans who were super confident now try and act like the fight is more suited to happen now for Pac than ever before. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom and 100+ years of boxing history. Obviously things can happen on a case by case basis, but generally speaking, fighters with styles predicated on athleticism & aggressiveness aren't as conducive to longevity as technical boxer-types. The examples are endless. Nobody has acknowledge the point or disputed this common understand boxing truism, though one poster sort of just said in Floyd's case it's an exception to the paradigm. Hard to logical rationalize how Floyd's physical drop-off is more detrimental to him than to a fighter whose style is built on a flawed foundation, and relies so heavily on his physical gifts, output, and aggressiveness. But alas, it's happening often.
> 
> I do not get it. Floyd fans are generally a confident bunch. I get how they may think the Pac fans are excuse-making when bringing it up and it's fine if you think Floyd would've always won but you can't deny that the realities of the dynamics are much different now than then. And that's it's pretty apparent who's worse off because of it. I guess some are hedging their bets... I don't know. I'm glad you admit Manny's feet looked slow in his last fight because Manny's legs are his lifeline. It's what allows him to transition defense to offense on an angle so effectively, and they're crucial against Floyd because Manny doesn't have a great jab, already doesn't cut the ring off well, is smallish, and doesn't in-fight. The reduced output is also crucial.
> 
> Not sure if serious but I've made countless posts on the subject. It's probably tiresome for some around here. If you missed them, and the examples and are serious I can re-post a lot of these examples and the rest of what I've said on the manner.


What you see is a lot of Floyd fans trying to be nice guys when in fact they think Floyd is going to beat the shit out of Manny. I am just keeping it real. Bball and all the rest know and believe Floyd is whooping that ass May 2. They are just trying to not make this a big ESB forum of tons of arguing. Manny has a chance bc he will of course throw punches but I see him getting treated the way Marquez did by Floyd.

Also people tend to forget or not admit the attitude/mean streak floyd has in him. If they think that years of coward, he scared, he don't want the fight, making brothers look bad and all the other comments don't have Floyd laser focused then they are blind and truly mistaken. Floyd if anything is fighting the world and this good vs evil shit and the other talk from people is all packed in a can of whoop ass and Floyd is opening it up.

Not to take anything from Manny but Boxing IS FLOYD'S CHURCH AND ON MAY 2ND FLOYD IS SAYING HALLELUJAH!!


----------



## Drunkenboat (Jul 29, 2012)

MrJotatp4p said:


> What you see is a lot of Floyd fans trying to be nice guys when in fact they think Floyd is going to beat the shit out of Manny. I am just keeping it real. Bball and all the rest know and believe Floyd is whooping that ass May 2. They are just trying to not make this a big ESB forum of tons of arguing. Manny has a chance bc he will of course throw punches but I see him getting treated the way Marquez did by Floyd.
> 
> Also people tend to forget or not admit the attitude/mean streak floyd has in him. If they think that years of coward, he scared, he don't want the fight, making brothers look bad and all the other comments don't have Floyd laser focused then they are blind and truly mistaken. Floyd if anything is fighting the world and this good vs evil shit and the other talk from people is all packed in a can of whoop ass and Floyd is opening it up.
> 
> Not to take anything from Manny but Boxing IS FLOYD'S CHURCH AND ON MAY 2ND FLOYD IS SAYING HALLELUJAH!!


You built it all up and then ended with a weak metaphor. Could've done better...


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Drunkenboat said:


> You built it all up and then ended with a weak metaphor. Could've done better...


Lmao. Maybe.


----------



## Drunkenboat (Jul 29, 2012)

Is this the biggest time Manny has been an underdog i.e. is Pacman more of an underdog vs PBF than he was against De La Hoya?


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

Drunkenboat said:


> Is this the biggest time Manny has been an underdog i.e. is Pacman more of an underdog vs PBF than he was against De La Hoya?


Probably as far back as Barrera, he's not been as big an underdog since then. I think he's a bigger underdog now than he was against DLH


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> What you see is a lot of Floyd fans trying to be nice guys when in fact they think Floyd is going to beat the shit out of Manny. I am just keeping it real. Bball and all the rest know and believe Floyd is whooping that ass May 2. They are just trying to not make this a big ESB forum of tons of arguing. Manny has a chance bc he will of course throw punches but I see him getting treated the way Marquez did by Floyd.
> 
> Also people tend to forget or not admit the attitude/mean streak floyd has in him. If they think that years of coward, he scared, he don't want the fight, making brothers look bad and all the other comments don't have Floyd laser focused then they are blind and truly mistaken. Floyd if anything is fighting the world and this good vs evil shit and the other talk from people is all packed in a can of whoop ass and Floyd is opening it up.
> 
> Not to take anything from Manny but Boxing IS FLOYD'S CHURCH AND ON MAY 2ND FLOYD IS SAYING HALLELUJAH!!


To a large extent, this is true. We've always recognized that he is great, but he isn't Floyd and some, maybe more than others, have been dismissive of Pacquiao in the past. I can admit that I have. How Arum has propped up Manny as if he is a boogieman to Floyd. The countdowns on the Top Rank site, building a new stadium, Roach admitting that they knew Floyd would be them in the past, it goes on and on. More than any of his other fights, this will mean more to Floyd to shut people up that have been incessant with the hateful talk for the past 6+ years. May 3rd will be a day of reckoning for a lot of fans, could be that for myself. I don't place faith in Floyd as if he is a demigod or a deity, he bleeds just as you and I but however, I think we are due for vintage Floyd. No, he can't turn back the clock like 10 years ago but of pure, undisputed domination from Floyd, that's my call because for the life of me, I can't see how any boxer that doesn't possess any of the key ingredients needed to beat Floyd can beat Floyd. That's going to be apparent after two rounds at the most. He's not getting around Floyd's jab. Other than that, semi-friendly banter as this builds towards May 2nd.


----------



## BobDigi5060 (Jul 15, 2012)

Floyd is going to move and mix it up. But, I think if he dances too much Pacman will just eat him up. The Pacman is too good at that and would run Mayweather out the ring. Knockdown city.

Pacman has to be himself, take a step back or two once he gets the better of an exchange.


----------



## Drunkenboat (Jul 29, 2012)

One thing I notice is opponent os Floyd always get him to the ropes (he actually goes there voluntarily but they think they forced him) and stand directly in line for his shoulder defence. Nobody seems to bother trying angles - they all seem to think "i got him against the ropes, lets throw the leather!!!". Im hoping Pacman will be able to attack from the sides in that case - I think Duran mentioned in an interview that is what he would do.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

Drunkenboat said:


> One thing I notice is opponent os Floyd always get him to the ropes (he actually goes there voluntarily but they think they forced him) and stand directly in line for his shoulder defence. Nobody seems to bother trying angles - they all seem to think "i got him against the ropes, lets throw the leather!!!". Im hoping Pacman will be able to attack from the sides in that case - I think Duran mentioned in an interview that is what he would do.


Manny isn't going to follow him to the ropes.


----------



## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

I don't necessarily think Floyd stops him, but Floyd is going to hurt him...I think Floyd is going to be very conservative offensively at first and is going to lul Manny to sleep, get him frustrated, then he's going to start catching him as he tries to come in and reach with poor balance, he'll land several eye catching shots. IMO


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Reppin501 said:


> I don't necessarily think Floyd stops him, but Floyd is going to hurt him...I think Floyd is going to be very conservative offensively at first and is going to lul Manny to sleep, get him frustrated, then he's going to start catching him as he tries to come in and reach with poor balance, he'll land several eye catching shots. IMO


You and a few others on here have this idea that Manny is going to stand right in front of Floyd (thereby negating Manny's best skill) and he's going to throw single shots with Floyd (negating his second best skill). I see Manny getting low with a high guard - very similar to Maidana - and closing the distance for his ambush flurries...then...backing up. Why is this a good strategy? Because Floyd's offense is in a serious rut. Defense is still sharp as ever, but his offense hasn't looked good since September, 2013.

This is an intriguing fight but the Floyd guys are so dismissive of everything/anything Manny can do and I think Roach will have a strong gameplan come fight night


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Drunkenboat said:


> Is this the biggest time Manny has been an underdog i.e. is Pacman more of an underdog vs PBF than he was against De La Hoya?


Oscar was a 5-1 favorite over Pac but Floyd opened at 3-1 and now it is 2-1. So no, this is not the biggest time.


----------



## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> You and a few others on here have this idea that Manny is going to stand right in front of Floyd (thereby negating Manny's best skill) and he's going to throw single shots with Floyd (negating his second best skill). I see Manny getting low with a high guard - very similar to Maidana - and closing the distance for his ambush flurries...then...backing up. Why is this a good strategy? Because Floyd's offense is in a serious rut. Defense is still sharp as ever, but his offense hasn't looked good since September, 2013.
> 
> This is an intriguing fight but the Floyd guys are so dismissive of everything/anything Manny can do and I think Roach will have a strong gameplan come fight night


I don't think this is a fair assessment...as it pertains to me anyway. I think Manny has as good a chance to win today as he's ever had, and I certainly don't discount him and/or his abilities. My point is that he is going to run into some straight right hands as he tries to come in and I could see him getting hurt at some point. As I said in my post, I don't think he gets hurt as in KO'd or even KD but I think you'll see some eye catching shots. Similar to the right hand Floyd hit Hatton with prior to the knockdown...I can see Manny especially in the middle and later in the fight getting caught in that kind of fashion. Especially if Floyd splits the first half of the fight and Manny starts to feel the fight slipping away from him.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Nuggets from Roach:

_Roach isnâ€™t divulging many details of the battle plan that he has been crafting for years, but he did give his take on his fighterâ€™s opponent. *â€œMayweather fights in spurts these days,â€* he said. *â€œHe likes to lay up on the ropes. He takes a lot of rests in the ring.

â€œOne of the keys to victory for Manny is to recognize when Floyd is taking a break and to stay on the offensive and keep scoring points. But the big thing is that Manny himself has to recognize when Mayweather is catching a breather. It doesnâ€™t help for me to see it from the corner.â€*

To that end, Roach said he wants Pacquiao to change how he prepares for this fight. Pacquiao isnâ€™t big on studying tape of his opponents, Roach said, *â€but this time I want him to study the films with me. He has to be able to see and recognize Mayweatherâ€™s moves himself.â€*

Among them is Mayweatherâ€™s left jab to the body. Roach said he has spoken with at least 20 of Mayweatherâ€™s sparring partners and opponents, who concur that while this punch might look like a tap, it is one of his most potent blows and also helps to set up his right.

...

Roach said that a lot of Mayweatherâ€™s opponents let themselves get tied up because they too are looking for a rest. In response to Mayweatherâ€™s move, Roach said,* â€œManny will keep his guard high to keep Floyd off him and he will work uppercuts up the middle.â€*

Roach also noted that he is trying to get Pacquiao to bend more inside so he can launch the signature multiple combinations that made him the icon he is._

http://www.wsj.com/articles/what-manny-pacquiaos-camp-is-afraid-of-1425401308

That jab to the body is one of the shots that's so difficult to counter and essential to maintaining range that I'm glad Roach is looking at it. Also, Pacquiao watching the tape himself is important. I'm sure "it looks different on the inside" but habits and movements can be picked up with firsthand visuals.

Uppercuts are also an interesting choice. I remember Floyd getting hit with exactly one uppercut, like, ever, in the early rounds of Maidana 1. (Aside from a beautiful left uppercut JMM landed too)


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Random thought...has Floyd ever been caught with a right hook while throwing his leaping straight? Just the one time against Judah right?


----------



## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

Ive always thought that jab to the body from May must sting like a bitch, right between the elbows of the guard.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> You kids love to play revisionist. Maidana is a C-level fighter and he arguably won the first fight. The only reason it's not a big deal is because Weekes was so dog shit awful in that fight. Floyd held on like an amateur in their second fight and was almost looking for a way out the way he cried during the "bite". Shit was embarrassing.


I watched the Maidana 2 fight last night again. At times he literally ran to Maidana with arms outstretched for a hug. Didn't know if I was watching a boxing match or the end of a romcom with the leads going in for a hug. It was embarassing, he even fell on his a$$ once when he missed the hug. But having watched it there were several things he did which he won't be able to get away with against Pacquiao. It was shocking to me how slowly Maidana moves around the ring, he cut it off reasonably well, but he plods around and is predictable. Even when he got Floyd in the corner, it's like he would pause, hold his lead hand out for a second, and then just throw 5 or 6 punches without looking up. And Floyd struggled with this guy. Pull counters won't work on Manny either, Floyd is liable to eat a big left hand. The lead right is going to be trouble for Pacquiao I think, they need to deal this punch, Floyd will throw it and look to hold, so Pacquiao's movement is going to be important.

DLH said yesterday, Pacquiao has to fight angry. Not reckless, but he has to fight with adrenaline and be all over Floyd, in and out, side to side, never stop moving and throw in bunches. He will need to be in the best condition he's been in since the MArgarito fight. Whether he is able to get into that kind of shape is the big question. But there's no doubt he can outwork Floyd


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

Roach needs to watch more tapes. Floyd throws a straight right to the body against, southpaws. He throws the left jab to the body against, righties.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Uppers eh. The hardest punch to land on Floyd. A punch that emmanuel is quite open to

Floyd would shell on the rope because Marcos could KEEP him there and had a rough, rugged dirty style.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

emmanuel will be fired up and come out hyper aggressive sort of like JUAN IV. This will allow him to LOOK GOOD EARLY ON. Floyd cracks that shit, and emmanuel's own aggression will be the ultimate cause of his undoing as he gets TKO'd


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> emmanuel will be fired up and come out hyper aggressive sort of like JUAN IV. This will allow him to LOOK GOOD EARLY ON. Floyd cracks that shit, and emmanuel's own aggression will be the ultimate cause of his undoing as he gets TKO'd


Before Juan IV I would agree with you. But now I would say that's very unlikely


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

FLOYD MAYWEATHER SR. LATEST POEM:

Skip Bayless? Skip to my lou
The Mayweathers are coming through

I thought you knew
Man, who the hell were you talking to

Maybe you should pay more attention
And make less mention

For one, I heard your comments about my son
Who's second to none, number one
And throws punches like a machine gun

You said he was scared to fight
Then all that changed over night
When it comes boxing, Floyd is the light

Skip Bayless and the other guys
They should all apologize
For telling America all those lies

The fight is signed, sealed, delivered and almost done
Lil Floyd once again will overcome
And still remain number one


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Floyd got so much in his arsenal. It is really hard to tell what gameplan he will be using.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Floyd got so much in his arsenal. It is really hard to tell what gameplan he will be using.


I see him keeping Manny at the end of his jab and frustrating him early and also smothering him on the inside and digging into the body. Floyd's jab is the key. That jab to the body can set up the left hook which is a punch I think Manny won't be prepared for. They are so focused on Floyd's right hand. I can see Floyd fighting at a higher tempo but thinking and reacting quickly.

People think Manny will be throwing 100 punches per round and all that bull. It won't happen. Manny is going to try and out box Floyd and with his style he has no choice bc he has to be in range to dictate the pace and he doesn't have those attributes against Floyd to dictate. He's smaller, doesn't have the jab or physical strength to push Floyd back. I expect to see the Manny that we seen in the Marquez 3 fight.

I need to find the gifs to make my point.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> FLOYD MAYWEATHER SR. LATEST POEM:
> 
> Skip Bayless? Skip to my lou
> The Mayweathers are coming through
> ...


I'm hopeful for video.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> I'm hopeful for video.


Seen it on Fighthype. Didn't have video but I am sure it will turn up. It's actually pretty nice for once.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> Before Juan IV I would agree with you. But now I would say that's very unlikely


imo, tko6 has had little if any effect on manny pacquiao mentally. hes going to fight exactly how sexy sergio has described because that is the only chance that he has of winning. if he comes out cautious and averages 40 punches a round for the first four rounds the fight is over.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Nuggets from Roach:
> 
> _Roach isnâ€™t divulging many details of the battle plan that he has been crafting for years, but he did give his take on his fighterâ€™s opponent. *â€œMayweather fights in spurts these days,â€* he said. *â€œHe likes to lay up on the ropes. He takes a lot of rests in the ring.
> 
> ...


I don't think the jab to the body is even going to play a big role. That punch is hard to throw against the opposite stance. That's where the right hand to the stomach comes in


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> Roach needs to watch more tapes. Floyd throws a straight right to the body against, southpaws. He throws the left jab to the body against, righties.


man, great minds


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I guess you guys are right but I'll have to re-watch Guerrero. Definitely a lot of straight rights there, maybe I'm remembering more jabs downstairs than there were.


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Floyd got so much in his arsenal. It is really hard to tell what gameplan he will be using.


Floyd Sr said they'll punish emmanuel's body


----------



## coldfire (Mar 5, 2015)

for mayweather.... pay the judge, pay off potential sparring partners for pacquiao, control the ticket(crowd), potshot all night, hire ariza and memo and avoid VADA testing.

for Pacquiao..... controlled ruthless aggression.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## light_box (Feb 19, 2015)

PacMan is more careful now, Floyd running and counter punch will put to the test. I think PacMan learned his mistakes on Pac vs JMM 4. 

Floyd. He knows what to do and he is working with it now, paying PacMan potential sparring partners, took Ariza.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Dammit bball just came in here to post that. I'll post the other.


----------



## light_box (Feb 19, 2015)

I think Pacman will be more careful now after what happen to Pacman vs JMM 4. Aggressive but not careless! Check this out Pacman and Mayweather how they prepare http://mp8.ph/pacquiao-mayweather-preparation/


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

light_box said:


> I think Pacman will be more careful now after what happen to Pacman vs JMM 4. Aggressive but not careless! Check this out Pacman and Mayweather how they prepare http://mp8.ph/pacquiao-mayweather-preparation/


[email protected] manny's mom curses.
I expected nothing less than a voodoo doll on Floyd on May 2nd.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


Roach respects Mayweather's ability more than he might let on, smart comments.

Interesting to hear he might have a sort of spy in Floyd's camp lol


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/11/...is-compubox-stats-naazim-richardson-blueprint



> You can easily go back and watch Shane Mosley box Pacquiao and you see him get hurt and you wonder why he never gets hurt again. And if you just watch the fight and once you see that, every fighter is going to apply that method. Marquez did it in this fight and everybody else is going to do it. And once thatâ€™s revealed, eventually itâ€™s just a matter of a timeline. Itâ€™s whether Freddie is going to make adjustments to the guy because itâ€™s hard because the defect he has, heâ€™s had since heâ€™s been boxing."


I respect the hell out of Naazim Richardson, what defect is he alluding to fully. I've had my thoughts but I'm curious and if he's see something, then I know that the Mayweathers have picked up on it as well. This is a quote from 2011 by the way.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

I also think he's a great coach but there's massive problems with what he said. Mosley gave a blueprint on how to beat Pacquiao? Really? He didn't get hurt again after round 3, and this is somehow a victory? atsch

Sometimes I can't believe what I'm reading from so-called great coaches, Shane Mosley lost every round in that fight! Pacquiao was strolling after him in his own time, I've never seen Pacquiao look so relaxed in the ring. And this is the great blueprint Naazim has come up with? lol 

I agree with his comments on Marquez, whose boxing IQ is the greatest in the modern game, he just doesn't have the physical attributes to always put that IQ to maximum use when he needs to be the aggressor. But when he's in there with an aggressor, he has the heart, the durability and power to put his intelligence to maximum effect.

Executing the Marquez blueprint is almost impossible for most to produce. BRadley tried in their 2nd fight, and looked foolish. Floyd will not attempt that blueprint. If he follows the Mosley blueprint, he won't get hurt sure, but he'll lose the fight 120-107 as Mosley did atsch

If floyd beats Pacquiao I can tell you right now, it won't be because he copies Mosley and he certainly won't fight like Marquez either!

Worth noting that Bernard Hopkins, when asked who the greatest coach in the world is, without hesitation, stated "Freddie Roach" - Roach knows what he's doing


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> I also think he's a great coach but there's massive problems with what he said. Mosley gave a blueprint on how to beat Pacquiao? Really? He didn't get hurt again after round 3, and this is somehow a victory? atsch
> 
> Sometimes I can't believe what I'm reading from so-called great coaches, Shane Mosley lost every round in that fight! Pacquiao was strolling after him in his own time, I've never seen Pacquiao look so relaxed in the ring. And this is the great blueprint Naazim has come up with? lol
> 
> ...


I agree that the Marquez blueprint is hard to reproduce and doesn't just transfer to all styles, but the Mosley fight was the first time I thought JMM had a chance against welterweight Manny; I saw that taking the angle away by constantly pivoting away from Manny's hand still frustrated his offense. It's much easier said than done, but that was definitely the focus of their gameplan. When watching footage Naazim said "you're more dynamic than JMM from that angle". Then from the corner was screaming "HE CAN'T DO NOTHIN TO YOU FROM THAT ANGLE!! I SOOOLVED THIS DUDE!!" Of course he was talking about the offensive angles that open up once you establish lead foot position.


----------



## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)




----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> I also think he's a great coach but there's massive problems with what he said. Mosley gave a blueprint on how to beat Pacquiao? Really? He didn't get hurt again after round 3, and this is somehow a victory? atsch


. Mosley was shot and could no longer pull the trigger yet was still able to avoid most of Pacquiaos offensive out put by circling and visibly frustrating Pacquiao, the counter opportunities were there, Mosley was just shot to pieces.. Thats what Nazim is referring to. Mosley had the blueprint much like Nazim recognized that Floyds biggest weakness to a single punch is the feint to the mid section followed by an over hand right that Mosley nearly KO'd Mayweather with

Pacquiao was living himself open to counter shots, but Mosley couldnt pull the trigger anymore.

Bradley did not look "silly" vs Pacquiao. He has always been sloppy, but he was able to win 4 rounds and made Pacquiao fight in a conventional cautious manner in order to win a unanimous decision over a guy who nearly died vs Provodnikov. I had the fight even through the first half of the fight, Bradley got tired and has never been a disciplined technical boxer, and he's feather fisted.

I have no doubt that Floyd could execute this gameplan and have success if he decided too, but I see Mayweather adopting Morales strategy of leading with the right hand capitalizing on Pacquiao's true biggest weakness.

Oh and Roach can be the greatest trainer of all time but its Pacquiao who's gonna have to be in the ring thinking and reacting, not Roach. Roach can produce whatever gameplan he wants but its up to Pacquiao to be able to follow it and Pacquiaos ring IQ isnt near Floyds.


----------



## BobDigi5060 (Jul 15, 2012)

thehook13 said:


>


I remember Mayweather's glove touching the canvas after a right hook, ruled a "slip".

Almost nine years ago, but this fight is going to be intense early on. Pacman has the power, but most importantly speed to go with it.


----------



## randomwalk (Jul 13, 2013)

This is a good illustration of how Bradley was able to partially neutralize Pac's left during the first fight. How will Mayweather neutralize his left? If he takes away the left, the fight is over.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> . Mosley was shot and could no longer pull the trigger yet was still able to avoid most of Pacquiaos offensive out put by circling and visibly frustrating Pacquiao, the counter opportunities were there, Mosley was just shot to pieces.. Thats what Nazim is referring to. Mosley had the blueprint much like Nazim recognized that Floyds biggest weakness to a single punch is the feint to the mid section followed by an over hand right that Mosley nearly KO'd Mayweather with


This is what I'm saying, yes - he managed to avoid his offense, of course, and if the aim of the game is to not get hit and that's it then he's golden. But if you are unable to do anything yourself then it's cheap talk in my view.



> Bradley did not look "silly" vs Pacquiao. He has always been sloppy, but he was able to win 4 rounds and made Pacquiao fight in a conventional cautious manner in order to win a unanimous decision over a guy who nearly died vs Provodnikov. I had the fight even through the first half of the fight, Bradley got tired and has never been a disciplined technical boxer, and he's feather fisted.


Bradley threw everything into every punch, I think feather-fisted is not quite accurate, he certainly wasn't there. Yes, I had it even after 4 rounds, once Pacquiao adjusted Bradley did indeed look silly - ended up swinging in mid air, asked Pacquiao to come in, take 7-8 punches in the face and then chase Pacquiao like a demented animal and missing with his attacks. So yes, after round 5, he did look kinda silly once Pacquiao made the adjustment



> I have no doubt that Floyd could execute this gameplan and have success if he decided too, but I see Mayweather adopting Morales strategy of leading with the right hand capitalizing on Pacquiao's true biggest weakness.
> 
> Oh and Roach can be the greatest trainer of all time but its Pacquiao who's gonna have to be in the ring thinking and reacting, not Roach. Roach can produce whatever gameplan he wants but its up to Pacquiao to be able to follow it and Pacquiaos ring IQ isnt near Floyds.


I'm not saying Floyd can't pull off that plan, far from it! I'm just saying it's not as easy as "I've figured it out" from Naazim when he figured out one thing only, how to keep his opponenet from not getting hit in a 120-107 loss - those are the facts - Mosley's condition means nothing in my point, which is based on Naazim's claim he knows how to beat him, when he clearly doesn't. Also don't underestimate Pacquiao's lethargy in that fight, he was winning so easily that he was practically walking after Mosley - you just can't read that much into it. The Pacquiao on May 2nd will be far more active and far sharper than that version of Pacquiao who seemed to have lost interest in boxing.

First good exchange of posts I've had with you :hey


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

Floyd is chopping wood.


----------



## Thomas Crewz (Jul 23, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> Floyd is chopping wood.


What's Floyd beating up Victor Ortiz got to do with this thread?


----------



## light_box (Feb 19, 2015)

Thomas Crewz said:


> What's Floyd beating up Victor Ortiz got to do with this thread?


Am sure it was Ariza whos responsible for Floyd wood chopping. atsch


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

light_box said:


> Am sure it was Ariza whos responsible for Floyd wood chopping. atsch


Yep, the same Ariza who is so great he uses these unconventional advanced methods. "Thanks for the 2 year contract Floyd, I just watched Rocky and I reckon you should chop some wood"


----------



## browsing (Jun 9, 2013)

Chopping wood, sledge hammers to tires, this is usual boxing shit, it's not revolutionary and Floyd has done it before atsch


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

browsing said:


> Chopping wood, sledge hammers to tires, this is usual boxing shit, it's not revolutionary and Floyd has done it before atsch


Right, even more reason why this whole "Floyd is going for power! We're going to see an Ernie Shavers version of Floyd" is absolute crap and is all kidology on Floyd's part


----------



## browsing (Jun 9, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> Right, even more reason why this whole "Floyd is going for power! We're going to see an Ernie Shavers version of Floyd" is absolute crap and is all kidology on Floyd's part


On Floyd's part? Or on peoples part who are interpreting what they want to interpret based solely on how they perceive his biceps?

We haven't seen anything concrete out of Floyd's camp besides stills. A half a minute snippets -if that- of him doing mundane things. Thats it.

Floyd is trying to get in the best shape of his life for this fight and he seems to be doing it, what hes going for as far as in ring performance is purely speculation and assumptions.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

browsing said:


> On Floyd's part? Or on peoples part who are interpreting what they want to interpret based solely on how they perceive his biceps?
> 
> We haven't seen anything concrete out of Floyd's camp besides stills. A half a minute snippets -if that- of him doing mundane things. Thats it.
> 
> Floyd is trying to get in the best shape of his life for this fight and he seems to be doing it, what hes going for as far as in ring performance is purely speculation and assumptions.


On Floyds part, of course. The chopping trees, the boast he will ko Pacquiao in 5, the ko'd sparring partner rumour, Mayweather sr saying they will knock him out. Don't be so naive lol


----------



## browsing (Jun 9, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> On Floyds part, of course. The chopping trees, the boast he will ko Pacquiao in 5, the ko'd sparring partner rumour, Mayweather sr saying they will knock him out. Don't be so naive lol


I think you're just paranoid that Pacquaio is going to lose.

Nothings special about anything that has happened thus far in Mayweather's camp nor any announcements.


----------



## OneTime (Nov 10, 2014)

Floyd gonna be juiced to the gills


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

browsing said:


> I think you're just paranoid that Pacquaio is going to lose.
> 
> Nothings special about anything that has happened thus far in Mayweather's camp nor any announcements.


lol not sure how you link the "I'm paranoid he's gonna lose" to the fact I'm stating these are mind games from Floyd and showing a pattern of the same message coming from them. Freddie's comments are also mind games. It is impossible to reason with a fanboy


----------



## browsing (Jun 9, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> lol not sure how you link the "I'm paranoid he's gonna lose" to the fact I'm stating these are mind games from Floyd and showing a pattern of the same message coming from them. Freddie's comments are also mind games. It is impossible to reason with a fanboy


Because you're acting spooked over just a few sound-bytes and pictures and you're blithering like a loon. The only mind getting played with here is you're own and your paranoia is apparent.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> lol not sure how you link the "I'm paranoid he's gonna lose" to the fact I'm stating these are mind games from Floyd and showing a pattern of the same message coming from them. Freddie's comments are also mind games. It is impossible to reason with a fanboy


that clown browsing said that i was "shook." lmfao as if pac has any significant meaning in my life

what flomos dont understand is that there are other things in normal peoples lives than if floyd wins of loses on may 2

the sad thing about it all is these flomos arent even going to bet on the fight. theyll just be happy to be part of something...vicariously living through the life and accomlishments of another man


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

browsing said:


> Because you're acting spooked over just a few sound-bytes and pictures and you're blithering like a loon. The only mind getting played with here is you're own and your paranoia is apparent.


LOL ok you win atsch


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Trainer Freddie Roach has effectively locked down the Wild Card Boxing Club when he and Manny Pacquiao are going through strategy on the mitts or during sparring sessions as they prepare for the May 2nd bout versus Floyd Mayweather. For this fight they have a very detailed game plan versus the sophisticated style they will be facing.

But Roach did divulge this to BoxingScene.com - "I know what his favorite punch is and I will like it when he uses it against Manny Pacquiao because Manny... I think the southpaw stance will help him, I think he'll take advantage of it but it's gotta be precise, it's gotta be timing. It's gotta be almost perfect. I mean, you have no room for error with this fight."

You assume that Roach is talking about Mayweather's straight right-hand. Or perhaps his 'check-hook'. Regardless, this comes after five years of studying 'Money' on film.

"I'm studying from (Oscar) De La Hoya to now," said the trainer. "I've been doing the more recent stuff lately and I've seen some things, some mistakes, some habits that he has developed recently. He's not the same as when he fought Oscar that time. But the similarities are there."

As for the biggest change in Mayweather, Roach answered - "I think he's slowed down quite a bit. I think he has to take breaks. He can't move fluidly for 12-rounds like he used to. His legs are a problem."

http://www.boxingscene.com/roach-hopes-mayweather-uses-his-favorite-punch--88697


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Trainer Freddie Roach has effectively locked down the Wild Card Boxing Club when he and Manny Pacquiao are going through strategy on the mitts or during sparring sessions as they prepare for the May 2nd bout versus Floyd Mayweather. For this fight they have a very detailed game plan versus the sophisticated style they will be facing.
> 
> But Roach did divulge this to BoxingScene.com - "I know what his favorite punch is and I will like it when he uses it against Manny Pacquiao because Manny... I think the southpaw stance will help him, I think he'll take advantage of it but it's gotta be precise, it's gotta be timing. It's gotta be almost perfect. I mean, you have no room for error with this fight."
> 
> ...


I think he's talking about the check hook and that he plans to counter Mayweather Algieri style on the check hook. That's my opinion though


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I think he's talking about the check hook and that he plans to counter Mayweather Algieri style on the check hook. That's my opinion though


Whatever it is, Manny does it once, then Floyd will adjust. Look at how Floyd got around Cotto's guard in their fight. He threw his right hand and funny (for him anyways) angles to get around the guard. Floyd's the computer in the ring. Better get to him fast.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> Whatever it is, Manny does it once, then Floyd will adjust. Look at how Floyd got around Cotto's guard in their fight. He threw his right hand and funny (for him anyways) angles to get around the guard. Floyd's the computer in the ring. Better get to him fast.


yeah exactly. If you watch the Guerrero fight, watch how Guerrero tries to counter Mayweather's lead right hand in the first 2 rounds. The adjustments Mayweather makes are brilliant and immediate then Guerrero's whole strategy went to hell.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I think he's talking about the check hook and that he plans to counter Mayweather Algieri style on the check hook. That's my opinion though


i am predicting success from the check hook for Floyd. It would be awesome if Floyd kos manny with it ricky hatton style.


----------



## browsing (Jun 9, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> i am predicting success from the check hook for Floyd. It would be awesome if Floyd kos manny with it ricky hatton style.


I'm looking for that checkhook too, to compliment all the straight and short rights I envision Manny bouncing and walking in to :lol:

The one thing I'm looking forward to seeing is how Floyd deals with Manny's 'dragon step' :lol: 
That step he takes after throwing his straight left (and sometimes right) when he wades (or step-dashes) to his own right to create delicate angles.

I want to see Floyd follow a straight right with a left to the body, or a left hook in the center of the ring in the middle of Manny's activity, that'll signify to me early on if Floyd's got his timing down and I want to see him rough up Manny on the inside early on, back out and jab to the body till Manny tries to leap in, and then right hook him in the left cheek or straight right him in the temple :lol:

:-( I see Manny getting KD several times on May 2nd or TKO'd :-(


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I think he's talking about the check hook and that he plans to counter Mayweather Algieri style on the check hook. That's my opinion though


Yeah I was thinking that. Other options are the jab to the body, which Roach mentioned before, or the straight right, which Manny might try to counter Zab style. The check hook though is the easiest way in IMO. Maybe that's why the timing has to be "perfect". To slow and he pulls away.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> i am predicting success from the check hook for Floyd. It would be awesome if Floyd kos manny with it ricky hatton style.


same here. WK had a good breakdown about the difference between Floyd's check hook and Algieri's

Go to 6:13





Floyd leans backwards when he throws the checkhook, not forward.That's how Algieri got caught over and over 


Bogotazo said:


> Yeah I was thinking that. Other options are the jab to the body, which Roach mentioned before, or the straight right, which Manny might try to counter Zab style. The check hook though is the easiest way in IMO. Maybe that's why the timing has to be "perfect". To slow and he pulls away.


yeah the jab to the body is a good option as well, but I don't think Floyd is going to use that much anyways. It's a hard and dangerous punch to use on southpaws, so it'll be easy for Pac to counter and unlikely for Floyd to use.

At first I was thinking of the lead right, but it's hard for me to even imagine what they would do for that punch that would have any long term success


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> same here. WK had a good breakdown about the difference between Floyd's check hook and Algieri's
> 
> Go to 6:13
> 
> ...


IKR, it is easier to say than done. That is Floyd's most accurate punch offensively that no one escapes from and Roach going to take it away? i doubt it..


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> same here. WK had a good breakdown about the difference between Floyd's check hook and Algieri's
> 
> Go to 6:13
> 
> ...


No hyperbole, Floyd does nothing that Algieri did wrong and the few things he did right, Floyd does it far, far, far better. WK said it like 5 times, Manny fought Chris Algieri in pure disgust/disbelief.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> At first I was thinking of the lead right, but it's hard for me to even imagine what they would do for that punch that would have any long term success


I actually have an idea  I'll show you later.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Not a bad basic breakdown.

http://www.mightyfighter.com/manny-pacquiao-vs-floyd-mayweather-jr-analysis/


----------



## Carpe Diem (Jun 6, 2013)

If Manny plans on hooking Floyd on the way in with a counter right hook when Floyd shoots the straight right to the body, then all Floyd has to do is touch/parry Manny's right hand with his left hand, then shoot the straight right hand downstairs. Manny countered Bradley with a right hook when Bradley threw the first right hand before he buckled/uplifted Manny in the air with the second right hand. The hook didn't had an effect on Bradley because his right hand shifted Manny's momentum and took away the snap of Manny's right hook. People remembered Judah knocking down Floyd with the right hook, but if you watch closely, Floyd did managed to landed that punch. Floyd can simply use his left hand to block Manny's frontal vision or touch Manny's right hand with his left hand before he shoots the straight right hand to the body. Sometimes Floyd is too stubborn/overconfident for his own good. Why leave any slight chance of getting caught again with the counter right hook when you don't have to? Floyd has a quicker one-punch release than Manny, he must use his left hand to occupy Manny's right hand before he shoots the straight right to the body.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Carpe Diem said:


> If Manny plans on hooking Floyd on the way in with a counter right hook when Floyd shoots the straight right to the body, then all Floyd has to do is touch/parry Manny's right hand with his left hand, then shoot the straight right hand downstairs. Manny countered Bradley with a right hook when Bradley threw the first right hand before he buckled/uplifted Manny in the air with the second right hand. The hook didn't had an effect on Bradley because his right hand shifted Manny's momentum and took away the snap of Manny's right hook. People remembered Judah knocking down Floyd with the right hook, but if you watch closely, Floyd did managed to landed that punch. Floyd can simply use his left hand to block Manny's frontal vision or touch Manny's right hand with his left hand before he shoots the straight right hand to the body. Sometimes Floyd is too stubborn/overconfident for his own good. Why leave any slight chance of getting caught again with the counter right hook when you don't have to? Floyd has a quicker one-punch release than Manny, he must use his left hand to occupy Manny's right hand before he shoots the straight right to the body.


This is a great point. I came in here to talk about that punch specifically and wonder if that is Roach's plan for the "favorite punch". Controlling the lead hand is a great way to minimize the right hook's importance.










And it also demonstrates why Manny must refuse to negotiate lead hands and paw with Floyd. When he reaches with the left, throw or step back/around.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

http://www.boxingscene.com/roach-using-de-la-hoya-loss-mayweather-strategy--88913

Jenna J: This is your second opportunity to go against Floyd. You had Oscar De La Hoya in that super fight. How much different is it this time around, having a fighter like Manny Pacquiao go against Floyd?

*Freddie Roach: Well, Oscar was really big but Iâ€™ve been in some big fights in my life and that was one of the biggest of course. I thought we won the first six rounds, I thought we kind of blew it in the last six rounds. Clearly I thought the fight could have been a draw but the thing is, I learned a lot about Mayweather in that fight. I learned how he kind of works a little bit, so itâ€™s helping out with my strategy with Pacquiao quite a bit.*

*Iâ€™m going back and watching most tapes and I watch the current stuff also, so I have a complete gameplan with Manny and heâ€™s right on board with me and Iâ€™m really excited about fighting this fight. This is bigger than anything Iâ€™ve ever had in my life.
*
Jenna J: A lot of people have said that Floyd has slowed down in recent years and because of that, Manny Pacquiaoâ€™s chances are better now than if the fight had happened five years ago. Do you agree with that?

*Freddie Roach: Everyone gets a little bit older and so forth. Manny Pacquiao in the last few fights has looked identical and so forth. Iâ€™m picking ideas of what will work and wonâ€™t work in the strategy.

Me and Manny were working on the moves today and it just wasnâ€™t comfortable with us, it was a three punch combination and it was just too long because a three punch combination in the pocket, Mayweather is really fast and he will hit you back before you land three shots, so we got rid of that. Weâ€™re just being careful about what we bring in. Weâ€™re getting a little bit from the old stuff and a little bit from the new stuff, itâ€™s working out really well though.*


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> http://www.boxingscene.com/roach-using-de-la-hoya-loss-mayweather-strategy--88913
> 
> Jenna J: This is your second opportunity to go against Floyd. You had Oscar De La Hoya in that super fight. How much different is it this time around, having a fighter like Manny Pacquiao go against Floyd?
> 
> ...


Roach going to get Manny knocked out.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I was about to post that interview. Good look Bogo


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Roach going to get Manny knocked out.


I doubt that.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> Roach going to get Manny knocked out.


Yup. he's trying to change the very nature of a boxer, this far into his career, against one of the most gifted fighters ever. Even then, Floyd will figure it out.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I doubt that.


okay


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> Yup. he's trying to change the very nature of a boxer, this far into his career, against one of the most gifted fighters ever. Even then, Floyd will figure it out.


Is he? Roach always says the thing you should never do is change the nature of a boxer because they are who they always are. I see no evidence he's trying to do that. He's saying a certain 3-punch combination didn't work and that they can't rely on those because of Floyd's quickness. And he's right. In certain situations they might work but while closing the distance, shorter is probably better.


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Is he? Roach always says the thing you should never do is change the nature of a boxer because they are who they always are. I see no evidence he's trying to do that. He's saying a certain 3-punch combination didn't work and that they can't rely on those because of Floyd's quickness. And he's right. In certain situations they might work but while closing the distance, shorter is probably better.


This is the 3rd fighter that Roach has trained to face Mayweather, although its only the second time he will be in the corner, and he still doesn't have a clue. All his comments have really been offense related which I don't fault bc he wasn't known for his defense. I think it would be best to make Floyd lead but Manny isn't as great going backwards as he is coming forward. I honestly think Roach knows that this is a horrible style matchup for Manny. How people can't see that is beyond me but Roy will be saying it by the 4th round on May 2nd.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Is he? Roach always says the thing you should never do is change the nature of a boxer because they are who they always are. I see no evidence he's trying to do that. He's saying a certain 3-punch combination didn't work and that they can't rely on those because of Floyd's quickness. And he's right. In certain situations they might work but while closing the distance, shorter is probably better.


I think it is fair to say that Manny fights in an instinctual manner. That's not to say that Manny is lost mentally in the ring because he isn't. However, all Roach has said is something to the effect of exploiting Floyd in some kind of capacity instead of fixing the flaws of his own fighter. Anyways, after a while, you are what you are. He's not going to develop Vernon Forrests jab by fight night. He's not going to be as tall as Tommy Hearnsy by fight night. I say just let Manny be Manny because his shortcomings in the fight will still be more than any modifications made. My biggest fear, which I believe won't happen because it's not Floyds nature to stray from the script, is to feel a Manny punch and then go, is that all and go berserk ala Tim Bradley. Manny will not be the hardest puncher he's ever faced. Then again, I'm on record saying that the fight won't be close so, I view all of this as bluster from Roach because he knows that he has to hit on a Hail Mary here


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Freddie Roach- "Iâ€™ve got a lot of young kids coming in and theyâ€™re all very good fighters, they all have very good records, most of them are undefeated. Usually we average about 150 rounds of sparring but for this fight, Iâ€™m going to shoot for about 90-100 because I donâ€™t feel like we need the wars anymore like we used to, we need just more technique and more strategy for what Mayweather brings to the table."

and this is sorta of reminding me about Robert Garcia in the Maidana rematch. It feels like he's over thinking and over planning. What ever plan Roach has and whatever punches he has set up will get neutralized anyways after awhile.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> This is the 3rd fighter that Roach has trained to face Mayweather, although its only the second time he will be in the corner, and he still doesn't have a clue. All his comments have really been offense related which I don't fault bc he wasn't known for his defense. I think it would be best to make Floyd lead but Manny isn't as great going backwards as he is coming forward. I honestly think Roach knows that this is a horrible style matchup for Manny. How people can't see that is beyond me but Roy will be saying it by the 4th round on May 2nd.


Well you said it yourself, Manny making Floyd lead isn't a realistic option so his best clear choice is to use his offense. So Roach is detailing what offense to use. He's not fundamentally changing who Manny is as a fighter, which is what I took issue with.



icebergisonfire said:


> I think it is fair to say that Manny fights in an instinctual manner. That's not to say that Manny is lost mentally in the ring because he isn't. However, all Roach has said is something to the effect of exploiting Floyd in some kind of capacity instead of fixing the flaws of his own fighter. Anyways, after a while, you are what you are. He's not going to develop Vernon Forrests jab by fight night. He's not going to be as tall as Tommy Hearnsy by fight night. I say just let Manny be Manny because his shortcomings in the fight will still be more than any modifications made. My biggest fear, which I believe won't happen because it's not Floyds nature to stray from the script, is to feel a Manny punch and then go, is that all and go berserk ala Tim Bradley. Manny will not be the hardest puncher he's ever faced. Then again, I'm on record saying that the fight won't be close so, I view all of this as bluster from Roach because he knows that he has to hit on a Hail Mary here


I just don't see anything that indicates he's suddenly changing Manny's style. Manny has always fought on instinct but he's also always followed Roach's plans and emphasized different things fight to fight.



bballchump11 said:


> and this is sorta of reminding me about Robert Garcia in the Maidana rematch. It feels like he's over thinking and over planning. What ever plan Roach has and whatever punches he has set up will get neutralized anyways after awhile.


In a sense that's a real danger. But if I were Roach I would rather Manny be over-prepared with drills. As many maneuvers as possible. They don't have to be complicated, but I much prefer over-thinking to under-estimating Floyd. "Let's let Manny do what he just always does" isn't the right approach. There are patterns to exploit there that Roach would be a fool to ignore. I think Robert put to much of his eggs in one basket when he had Maidana prepare for that counter to the pull-counter. It hit Floyd but didn't knock him out. It wasn't going to work a 2nd time. I think deep down Roach isn't planning for a KO. Although at the same time this can't be a pure boxing match. Manny has to apply whatever he's planning with intensity to be competitive. It's a fine line. Aggressive but nor reckless. Intelligent but not slow paced.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> In a sense that's a real danger. But if I were Roach I would rather Manny be over-prepared with drills. As many maneuvers as possible. They don't have to be complicated, but I much prefer over-thinking to under-estimating Floyd. "Let's let Manny do what he just always does" isn't the right approach. There are patterns to exploit there that Roach would be a fool to ignore. I think Robert put to much of his eggs in one basket when he had Maidana prepare for that counter to the pull-counter. It hit Floyd but didn't knock him out. It wasn't going to work a 2nd time. I think deep down Roach isn't planning for a KO. Although at the same time this can't be a pure boxing match. Manny has to apply whatever he's planning with intensity to be competitive. It's a fine line. Aggressive but nor reckless. Intelligent but not slow paced.


true, drilling a bunch of different maneuvers for Pacquiao to do on instinct is the best plan. Like it's been mentioned before, Manny can't out think Floyd, so he should look to up the pace and turn this into a fight where you have to just react. I do think think underestimating Floyd's punching power, but that's a different topic. 
But you're right, you can hear the whole interview here toward to end of the podcast. http://ontheropesboxing.com/freddie-roach-terence-crawford-tony-harrison-otr-231/

He mentions how Floyd's favorite punch is too long, which makes me think he's talking about the lead right hand or jab to the body. He says he has a counter for that and that Floyd may get knocked out the first time he uses it. He also said he asked Cotto what the most difficult thing to deal with when fighting Floyd and Cotto said it was probably his footspeed.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> true, drilling a bunch of different maneuvers for Pacquiao to do on instinct is the best plan. Like it's been mentioned before, Manny can't out think Floyd, so he should look to up the pace and turn this into a fight where you have to just react. I do think think underestimating Floyd's punching power, but that's a different topic.
> But you're right, you can hear the whole interview here toward to end of the podcast. http://ontheropesboxing.com/freddie-roach-terence-crawford-tony-harrison-otr-231/
> 
> He mentions how Floyd's favorite punch is too long, which makes me think he's talking about the lead right hand or jab to the body. He says he has a counter for that and that Floyd may get knocked out the first time he uses it. He also said he asked Cotto what the most difficult thing to deal with when fighting Floyd and Cotto said it was probably his footspeed.


Yeah underestimating Floyd's power could definitely lead to bad things. I agree with mrjotatp4p that negating Floyd's offense is equally key because it's what wins him the points, not just the defensive aspect. But that's a good way to put it, making it a fight about pure reaction rather than a thinking pace. Floyd can think on the move but it's better to have him do that then paw with the jab and read you and get comfortable.

Thanks for the link, sounds interesting, I'll check it later. I actually think it might by the lead right hand he's talking about. I told you I head an idea about that I'll tell you in a few hours.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

The fighter who controls the pace of this fight will win. Rarely is Floyd unable to seize control of a fight (I can only think of Maidana 1 and JLC 1 as examples). Manny will need to limit his combination punching and also throw single shots sometimes to mix it up. I like that Roach doesn't want him unloading 5-6 punches at a time because that opens the doors for countering.

Manny can win but he needs to get control of the fight and not let up. It's a tall task but is definitely possible. I have yet to see a smaller man dictate Floyd so I'm really curious to see Manny try


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Chavez kept it at a high pace I'd say, but Floyd was different at 130 and more active himself


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Chavez kept it at a high pace I'd say, but Floyd was different at 130 and more active himself


Forgot about that fight completely. I don't care what Floyd says...he prefers controlling the pace. Even though he was very clearly getting the better of Chavez, he wasn't completely comfortable. Floyd strongly prefers to set the pace and lead the pace. Manny being very active is a good thing if he sticks to 2-3 punch combinations before moving laterally/backwards/smothering. But he needs to move somewhere after he throws...he cannot stand in front of Floyd - it's a disaster waiting to happen


----------



## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

@Carpe Diem

Very nice man

The lead hand duel http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...ance-of-Guillermo-Rigondeaux&highlight=jackal :hey


----------



## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Chavez kept it at a high pace I'd say, but Floyd was different at 130 and more active himself


Floyd was so uncomfortable with Chavez' pace that he had to move too much to relieve the pressure. This is not a bad strategy at all by for Manny to use as he's levels above Chavez and the ring won't be as big. The only problem Manny would have is the same one Chavez had: What happens after I throw all these punches and don't do nearly enough damage to slow him down? Floyd turns it up late and starts beating the opponent up.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


Good vid. These are really well done.


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


Would like to see more on Pacman too. These are well done


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)




----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


This makes absolutely no sense to try with Floyd.


----------



## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> This makes absolutely no sense to try with Floyd.


It makes perfect sense. Floyd tends to shut down when the opponent throws a lot. Keeping him occupied is a good tactic. Have to be in great shape to do it, though.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

SouthPaw said:


> It makes perfect sense. Floyd tends to shut down when the opponent throws a lot. Keeping him occupied is a good tactic. Have to be in great shape to do it, though.


Not in the way that he's going to push Floyd to the ropes. Manny is going to find out early that Floyd is too strong for that. Manny wants to keep this away from the ropes as much as possible.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

icebergisonfire said:


> This makes absolutely no sense to try with Floyd.


I think it's good in theory. Floyd can counter you against the ropes well and Pacquiao is a killer when he has you on the ropes. Roach probably wants to use that Oscar De La Hoya blueprint and back Floyd to the ropes, but then have Manny jump out to avoid the counter punches.

I don't think Floyd is going to linger on the ropes for long periods of times in this fight anyways, so I'm not concerned about it. And their strategy makes it seem seem like Floyd will have an easy time getting off the ropes also


----------



## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

If Floyd comes out with the intention to stink out the joint, Manny will never find him. I hope he doesn't.


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

SouthPaw said:


> If Floyd comes out with the intention to stink out the joint, Manny will never find him. I hope he doesn't.


Joel Diaz talks about it here






I want Floyd to win but even I don't want him to fight like that, not this fight.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

http://www.boxingscene.com/roach-mayweather-broken-early-blasted-late--89366


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


his best video on the topic so far

illustrates how the jab is a multi purpose tool



icebergisonfire said:


> Joel Diaz talks about it here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"He doesn't care about anyone's opinion" = self-assured alpha


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

*"It's going to start quick,"* said the bespectacled trainer who has worked with 31 world champions in his Wild Card gym.* "We're going to be warmed up and ready to go.

"What I want Manny to do is outscore him and land combinations, get out of the pocket and make him miss. If we can consistently do that, we will win the fight on a decision. I think it will go the distance."*

http://www.boxingscene.com/roach-i-think-mayweather-hurt-manny--90136


----------



## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> *"It's going to start quick,"* said the bespectacled trainer who has worked with 31 world champions in his Wild Card gym.* "We're going to be warmed up and ready to go.
> 
> "What I want Manny to do is outscore him and land combinations, get out of the pocket and make him miss. If we can consistently do that, we will win the fight on a decision. I think it will go the distance."*
> 
> http://www.boxingscene.com/roach-i-think-mayweather-hurt-manny--90136


I thought Roach said they were going to knock Mayweather out. http://www.cbssports.com/general/ey...g-no-punches-says-pacquiao-will-ko-mayweather


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Atlanta said:


> I thought Roach said they were going to knock Mayweather out. http://www.cbssports.com/general/ey...g-no-punches-says-pacquiao-will-ko-mayweather


Yeah it seems no matter who the opponent is he predicts a knockout lol. I think he's being more honest here.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

:think


----------



## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

If Floyd stops Manny it's because Marquez dented him and ruined his durability. Guy got hurt against Bradley and looked hurt against Rios by a right hand. Same guy he took Cotto's shots, and was only hurt by a Margo body-punch before that fight.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

"Floyd likes to flow around the outside of the ring. He prefers the ropes to the middle so he can wait, set traps, suck you in and pick you off with his counters. Especially that very good, very straight right. The old Manny might have walked into that. Not now. He will close him down, catch him with two or three hard punches but then move. Floyd will throw back alright but Manny wonâ€™t be there," Roach told Daily Mail.

"The first time anyone can remember Manny ever watching a boxing tape was when I showed him one of Floydâ€™s fights. Showed him how the game plan can work. He liked it. He said â€˜I can do that, no problem.â€™ He saw how Floyd throws a lot less punches, maybe 35 a round against up to a hundred of his own. But that also persuades him he can afford to be patient if necessary."

"So while he wonâ€™t go mad for the knockout, it could come from Mannyâ€™s left. If not I wonâ€™t be surprised if he wins every round. Pitches a shutout. Either way, Floyd doesnâ€™t have the power to hurt him."

http://www.boxingscene.com/roach-no-surprise-if-pacquiao-wins-every-single-round--90288


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> "Floyd likes to flow around the outside of the ring. He prefers the ropes to the middle so he can wait, set traps, suck you in and pick you off with his counters. Especially that very good, very straight right. The old Manny might have walked into that. Not now. He will close him down, catch him with two or three hard punches but then move. Floyd will throw back alright but Manny wonâ€™t be there," Roach told Daily Mail.
> 
> "The first time anyone can remember Manny ever watching a boxing tape was when I showed him one of Floydâ€™s fights. Showed him how the game plan can work. He liked it. He said â€˜I can do that, no problem.â€™ He saw how Floyd throws a lot less punches, maybe 35 a round against up to a hundred of his own. But that also persuades him he can afford to be patient if necessary."
> 
> ...


I really hope he's not banking on Floyd being on the ropes the whole fight. I don't see Floyd spending much time on the ropes at all


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I really hope he's not banking on Floyd being on the ropes the whole fight. I don't see Floyd spending much time on the ropes at all


Floyd won't be on the ropes at all. He won't give any rounds away. I see him fighting at a tempo the same way he fought Gatti. He will be moving and reacting in a hyper kind of way. I see Manny lunging in and not being able to reach Floyd with anything damaging. Floyd will be getting off first and countering Manny's counters. Manny hates not being in range and having to reset. He gets frustrated and starts forcing things and without a jab to freeze Floyd he is in trouble.


----------



## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I really hope he's not banking on Floyd being on the ropes the whole fight. I don't see Floyd spending much time on the ropes at all


I interpreted it to mean he likes staying near the ropes, not right on them. He's saying Floyd likes to circle close to the ropes so he can set traps, and he's right, he likes to back up, suck you in, and then when you lunge he counters, spins out and takes the fight back to the centre where he builds again.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I really hope he's not banking on Floyd being on the ropes the whole fight. I don't see Floyd spending much time on the ropes at all


Yeah half of me thinks he's trying to get Floyd to try and prove a point by not moving much, the other half thinks he's been obsessing over cornering him in camp.



El-Terrible said:


> I interpreted it to mean he likes staying near the ropes, not right on them. He's saying Floyd likes to circle close to the ropes so he can set traps, and he's right, he likes to back up, suck you in, and then when you lunge he counters, spins out and takes the fight back to the centre where he builds again.


This is actually totally true. I always call it circling along the perimeter, rather than controlling the center. Even in a fight like Maidana 2, his back is to the smaller part of the ring nearly all the time.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah half of me thinks he's trying to get Floyd to try and prove a point by not moving much, the other half thinks he's been obsessing over cornering him in camp.
> 
> This is actually totally true. I always call it circling along the perimeter, rather than controlling the center. Even in a fight like Maidana 2, his back is to the smaller part of the ring nearly all the time.


the thing is, I heard him say that he had the right plan with Oscar De La Hoya. He said Oscar couldn't pull it off in the second half of the fight, but Manny will. He also said Oscar ran into too many traps along the ropes. He said that they're using the a similar plan basically, but with different tweaks too it.

Based off the Oscar fight, it seemed like that was the plan. Back Floyd to the ropes and outwork him. So I normally wouldn't put too much weight on it, but there are a lot of signs pointing toward that


----------



## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> the thing is, I heard him say that he had the right plan with Oscar De La Hoya. He said Oscar couldn't pull it off in the second half of the fight, but Manny will. He also said Oscar ran into too many traps along the ropes. He said that they're using the a similar plan basically, but with different tweaks too it.
> 
> Based off the Oscar fight, it seemed like that was the plan. Back Floyd to the ropes and outwork him. So I normally wouldn't put too much weight on it, but there are a lot of signs pointing toward that


I can't see Manny backing Floyd up. If anything this fight will be the opposite.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> the thing is, I heard him say that he had the right plan with Oscar De La Hoya. He said Oscar couldn't pull it off in the second half of the fight, but Manny will. He also said Oscar ran into too many traps along the ropes. He said that they're using the a similar plan basically, but with different tweaks too it.
> 
> Based off the Oscar fight, it seemed like that was the plan. Back Floyd to the ropes and outwork him. So I normally wouldn't put too much weight on it, but there are a lot of signs pointing toward that


I guess they don't have much of a choice. I think punching on the move is more dangerous from Manny than his skills cutting the ring off but maybe they anticipate a very mobile Floyd. Oscar fights very differently but his offense was puncuated and I think that's what they're going for I guess. :conf


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> I can't see Manny backing Floyd up. If anything this fight will be the opposite.


You predict Floyd fighting on the front foot?


----------



## icebergisonfire (Aug 22, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> I can't see Manny backing Floyd up. If anything this fight will be the opposite.


I am in the same boat as you. This fight will be at the center of the ring mostly.


----------



## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Chavez kept it at a high pace I'd say, but Floyd was different at 130 and more active himself


Two totally different fighters. Chavez was willing to lay on Floyd and let go of his hands, even while getting his head snapped back with upper cuts and such. Manny can't lay on Floyd like that and I'm not so sure he will be willing to take flush shots like that just to get that many punches in.


----------



## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


>


That one little snippet sums up why Floyd is such a technical savant of the boxing game.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Dillyyo said:


> Two totally different fighters. Chavez was willing to lay on Floyd and let go of his hands, even while getting his head snapped back with upper cuts and such. Manny can't lay on Floyd like that and I'm not so sure he will be willing to take flush shots like that just to get that many punches in.


I don't disagree


----------



## Drunkenboat (Jul 29, 2012)

Not sure if posted yet. Full article here:
http://www.si.com/boxing/2015/04/23/freddie-roach-strategy-mayweather-pacquiao-de-la-hoya

"â€‹Pacquiao is the best offensive fighter of his generation, and his movement is scattered and unorthodox. That in theory could allow him to penetrate Mayweatherâ€™s impenetrable defense. When Roach first trained Pacquiao, he moved in and out. They added side-to-side movement next. Then they put both together. â€œWe finally got to where it was perfect,â€ he says. â€œSee, Oscar is pursuing him there.â€ De La Hoya lands a right to the body and slithers back away. â€œManny has to do that.â€
As Roach watches, he remembers what it felt like, as a fight that seemed won started to slip away. â€œSee, Oscar followed him right into that shot,â€ Roach says. I ask if Pacquiaoâ€™s aggressiveness could hurt him the same way, as it did when Juan Manuel Marquez knocked Pacquiao out cold. Roach nods. Thatâ€™s part of what theyâ€™re working on.

Roach stands up in the living room to demonstrate. Itâ€™s all about the footwork, he says. He tells me to step backward. I do. Then he lands an open-hand straight left to the chest that momentarily takes my breath away. He didnâ€™t mean to hit me. (I think.) My photographer cackles in the background. (Thanks.)

â€¢ â€‹MANNIX: Mayweather a big challenge for Freddie Roach

He continues the demonstration. When Mayweather steps backward, Roach does not want Pacquiao to follow him. He wants Pacquiao to move to his right, Mayweatherâ€™s left. That forces Mayweather to approach Pacquiao straight on, or to move to his right, which is the weaker side for him to move toward. Itâ€™s that way for most right-handed boxers, because as they move right, they have to plant and turn to throw. When they move left, theyâ€™re already planted. (Quick aside: almost all boxers have a weak side, Roach says, but he sees the middleweight champion Gennady Golovkin as a rare exception. He has no weak side. â€œe has the best footwork in the world,â€ Roach says.)"


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

^ Was reading that before. Some other interesting points:

*Roachâ€™s strategy includes two key points for Pacquiao in that regard. 1) He must move Mayweather backward, but not follow him. â€œIf you jab or feint him, and he steps back, you have a huge advantage to score,â€ Roach says. â€œBut you have to score, and you have to get out really quickly. Mayweather will throw back. But he wonâ€™t counter until you stop. Some fighters will just keep throwing at him. My fighter shouldnâ€™t. In and out. Clean combinations.â€ And 2) if Mayweather does move backward, what Roach calls setting a trap, Pacquiao must not approach him straight on.

Roach wants Pacquiao to set up combinations with his jab, which Roach thinks is better than De La Hoyaâ€™s jab. That, he says, is his favorite punch for Pacquiao to throw. But itâ€™s not Pacquiaoâ€™s favorite. He can be lazy with the jab.*


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

well some of us were right. Roach over analyzed and outsmarted himself. Focusing on the jab to the body was stupid as Mayweather only threw it twice and landed both times. As Roy said "The right hand to the body against a southpaw is the equivalent to the jab vs orthodox fighters"


----------



## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> well some of us were right. *Roach over analyzed and outsmarted himself.* Focusing on the jab to the body was stupid as Mayweather only threw it twice and landed both times. As Roy said "The right hand to the body against a southpaw is the equivalent to the jab vs orthodox fighters"


I wonder if his focus on the ambush in-n-out style bullshit was because roach fooled himself or because of emmanuel's limitations as a fighter.

Time and time again the proven formula vs Floyd is swarming. Yet you got boxing fans and boxing world tryna be smartAZZes it's southpaws, it's mofos with a jab (which is misinterpreted into being a speedy outside fighter), etc.

If Floyd fights Kellz, Timmeh, or Amir people will see that merely have a jab isn't enough.

lol they worked all camp for Floyd's shank yet couldn't counter it once


Bogotazo said:


> ^ Was reading that before. Some other interesting points:
> 
> *Roachâ€™s strategy includes two key points for Pacquiao in that regard. 1) He must move Mayweather backward, but not follow him. â€œIf you jab or feint him, and he steps back, you have a huge advantage to score,â€ Roach says. â€œBut you have to score, and you have to get out really quickly. Mayweather will throw back. But he wonâ€™t counter until you stop. Some fighters will just keep throwing at him. My fighter shouldnâ€™t. In and out. Clean combinations.â€ And 2) if Mayweather does move backward, what Roach calls setting a trap, Pacquiao must not approach him straight on.
> 
> Roach wants Pacquiao to set up combinations with his jab, which Roach thinks is better than De La Hoyaâ€™s jab. That, he says, is his favorite punch for Pacquiao to throw. But itâ€™s not Pacquiaoâ€™s favorite. He can be lazy with the jab.*


----------

