# Top 25 P4P Since Sugar Ray Robinson



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Or you could say since 1960 (roughly) as that's last when he held a World Championship. Do you agree with this list? I'd guess not entirely. *It isn't my own personal rankings* for the record, and not something I've thought on too heavily in quite a long time. It's actually based on a very well known 'list' that was compiled a few years ago by historian Matt McGrain - I bumped Floyd and Pacquiao a couple spots up for the sake - and working backwards from it. Pretty damn good place to start though and the explanations were thorough.

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Roberto Duran
03. Sugar Ray Leonard
04. Pernell Whitaker
05. Roy Jones, Jr.
06. Carlos Monzon
07. Eder Jofre
08. Marvin Hagler
09. Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
10. Emile Griffith
11. Jose Napoles
12. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
13. Manny Pacquiao
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Michael Spinks
16. Thomas Hearns
17. Bernard Hopkins
18. Carlos Ortiz
19. Fighting Harada
20. Ruben Olivares
21. Evander Holyfield
22. Salvador Sanchez
23. Wilfredo Gomez
24. Vicente Saldivar
25. Dick Tiger

What would you change, who should be swapped where and why? What criteria do you prefer to rank fighters by -- Strictly Resume? Resume + Ability? Top Wins + Ability? Isn't it actually ability/skill that determines the quality of fighters _on_ a resume? Does the level of dominance or career longevity play significant factors for you? How much weight does successfully running through multiple divisions carry? Always felt boxing fans had the liberty to emphasize whichever aspects they saw fit, so long as it can be intelligently argued and done with some level of consistency across the board.

Muhammad Ali's best wins, resume depth and peak ability are extremely hard to argue against although I feel both Duran and Leonard were better fighters and the only two with any true argument here. Pernell is one of the five best fighters I've ever seen on film to this point and (I believe) has the best resume of anyone since SRL capped his legacy with the Hagler win in '87. It goes without saying that I consider Chavez a clear win and I scored the De La Hoya bout - who was #2 P4P - 114-112 in his favor. This can change things quite dramatically, see. Even without Oscar...

Mike McCallum is a snub here for me as I consider him the greatest Light Middleweight of All-Time (albeit brief history) and had him taking the second fight against a prime middleweight James Toney pretty clearly whilst past his own best and consider Sumbu Kalambay one of the Top 10 defensively skilled fighters of all-time, avenging a previous defeat against a stylistic nightmare. He also wiped out an undefeated Julian Jackson and holds wins over numerous other world-class technicians (Donald Curry, Herol Graham, Michael Watson). He's got couple losses, but the level of formidability in his opposition and win column is quite amazing tbh. He was passed over for fights with both Thomas Hearns and/or Roberto Duran at 154 in the mid-1980s who stood to make more coin fighting eachother.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The fucking 70s man.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Duran mentioned yet?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Duran mentioned yet?


I remember a thread on ESB titled "Biggest Cowards of All-Time" or something along the lines and there was fucking Pachilles with his "Duran deserves a mention" :rofl I lost my shit.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Monzon is too high IMO 

Don't be scared to move Floyd higher, people.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I remember a thread on ESB titled "Biggest Cowards of All-Time" or something along the lines and there was fucking Pachilles with his "Duran deserves a mention" :rofl I lost my shit.


:rofl


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I think the elephant in the room here - Not Roberto three months out from a fight - is just how far does Duran drop without the win over Sugar Ray Leonard on his record?

@PityTheFool


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

I'm an Ability + resume guy. Without a lot of footage on a fighter it's hard to judge, especially in important fights that could be controversial.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm going to start citing and mentioning posters I deem to be all-time greats if this thread doesn't gain the traction that I'd like. Which was always the fucking point to begin with: Conversation. Already started.

Monzon IS too high.


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Hearns should be in at 12 imo


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Very good list though :good


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I'm an Ability + resume guy. Without a lot of footage on a fighter it's hard to judge, especially in important fights that could be controversial.


It's diabolical not to take ability into account IMO -- If you aren't, then how exactly is one determining what constitutes a great resume if not also the ability of the fighters on it? There's no such thing as Resume Only, ability is taken into account by default or you're basically pissing in the wind. I wouldn't remove Roy from the Top 5.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's diabolical not to take ability into account IMO -- If you aren't, then how exactly is one determining what constitutes a great resume if not also the ability of the fighters on it? There's no such thing as Resume Only, ability is taken into account by default or you're basically pissing in the wind. I wouldn't remove Roy from the Top 5.


Thats about as tight of a top 5 as you can get IMO

That really is a great list though, I completely forgot about Jofre, shame not a lot of footage exists if not surprising.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Thats about as tight of a top 5 as you can get IMO
> 
> That really is a great list though, I completely forgot about Jofre, shame not a lot of footage exists if not surprising.


He did an incredible job, it's basically his list but reworked in a different way and into a tighter window. I think it's a great starting point for anyone looking to expand their own. And yeah, I don't see that Top 5 moving. Ever. Julio may be a tad high here, sad to say. I'd probably include Ernesto Marcel within my Top 25, which I'm still kind of psuedo-agonizing over. McCallum as well obviously, but as for removing guys...


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Monzon is too high IMO
> 
> Don't be scared to move Floyd higher, people.


Umm, I'd say he and Pac both have pretty decent arguments to be rated over the likes of Hagler P4P given how many divisions they tore through, but that's down to emphasis in particular areas. The argument is there for sure, but I don't care enough to present it. It's actually been done.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> He did an incredible job, it's basically his list but reworked in a different way and into a tighter window. I think it's a great starting point for anyone looking to expand their own. And yeah, I don't see that Top 5 moving. Ever. Julio may be a tad high here, sad to say. I'd probably include Ernesto Marcel within my Top 25, which I'm still kind of psuedo-agonizing over. McCallum as well obviously, but as for removing guys...


Call it controversial but I'd switch around Mayweather in front of Hagler, and move everyone down a spot. Having him not in the top 10 best is just not OK with me. Resume and skills are just too excellent to ignore.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Call it controversial but I'd switch around Mayweather in front of Hagler, and move everyone down a spot. Having him not in the top 10 best is just not OK with me. Resume and skills are just too excellent to ignore.


Look above you. You love me.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Roberto Duran
03. Sugar Ray Leonard
04. Pernell Whitaker
05. Roy Jones, Jr.
06. Floyd Mayweather jr
07. Manny Pacquiao
08. Carlos Monzon
09. Eder Jofre
10. Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
11. Marvin Hagler
12. Thomas Hearns
13. Emile Griffith
14. Jose Napoles
15. Alexis Arguello
16 .Michael Spinks
17. Bernard Hopkins
18. Carlos Ortiz
19. Ruben Olivares
20. Evander Holyfield
21. Fighting Harada
22. Salvador Sanchez
23. Wilfredo Gomez
24. Vicente Saldivar
25. Dick Tiger


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I think the elephant in the room here - Not Roberto three months out from a fight - is just how far does Duran drop without the win over Sugar Ray Leonard on his record?
> 
> @PityTheFool


It's a nice list but there's a couple who could switch places.
Like 1 and 3.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Look above you. You love me.


:lol:

:tdh


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

turbotime said:


> 01. Muhammad Ali
> 02. Roberto Duran
> 03. Sugar Ray Leonard
> 04. Pernell Whitaker
> ...


Man that felt good..


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> It's a nice list but there's a couple who could switch places.
> Like 1 and 3.


How can you not be sore about Mike getting snubbed? He should be there, comfortably. There's also no way in hell James Toney would be out my 25 BEST given how immensely skilled he was as well the argument that beating Michael Nunn (20-1 dog) and McCallum (who was favoured, albeit fuckton closer odds) might be the best pair of wins since '91. Roy Jones fans also demand Toney be in there. I'm referring to the first fight judged a Draw.

Do you rate Cholo over Ali?



turbotime said:


> :lol:
> 
> :tdh




:happy


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How can you not be sore about Mike getting snubbed? He should be there, comfortably. There's also no way in hell James Toney would be out my 25 BEST given how immensely skilled he was as well the argument that beating Michael Nunn (20-1 dog) and McCallum (who was favoured, albeit fuckton closer odds) might be the best pair of wins since '91. Roy Jones fans also demand Toney be in there. I'm referring to the first fight judged a Draw.
> 
> Do you rate Cholo over Ali?
> 
> ...


I have a real hard time with Mike not being in there as well....we COULD get Harada out of there....except he beat jofre im sure....Ugh.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I have a real hard time with Mike not being in there as well....


Anyone who's seen the Toney/McCallum fights would. It feels incredibly dirty. I think James makes just as good a case to fuck himself OUT of there unfortunately though, but Mike McCallum? Nah, man. And you said he wasn't underrated. McCallum/Kalambay II is also immense in a technical sense.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> 01. Muhammad Ali
> 02. Roberto Duran
> 03. Sugar Ray Leonard
> 04. Pernell Whitaker
> ...


It's sex-c, dude. I like it for the most part although I think I'm probably rolling with Hagler over Monzon these days. That's such a straight up valid and awesome comparison for obvious reasons.

I think Carlos had a lot of very subtle skill that gets overlooked (or used to) -- his ring generalship, control of distance and poise was on some stone cold shit but I don't like that skipping Valdez to fight Napoles business. Demented fight, and Jose still gave it everything. And of course, Rodrigo's right hand was already mangled when they got it on, though I believe (?) Monzon did sign to fight before the accident.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

turbotime said:


> 01. Muhammad Ali
> 02. Roberto Duran
> 03. Sugar Ray Leonard
> 04. Pernell Whitaker
> ...


McCallum, Holmes, King Lennox, the 3 Amigos, Wladdy, Oskee, Calzaghe, Toney, Tyson, Azumah Nelson, Wonjongkam, Ricardo Lopez, Felix Trinidad, Bob Foster, Fenech, Pedroza, Shane Mosley are all honorable mentions easily.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's sex-c, dude. I like it for the most part although I think I'm probably rolling with Hagler over Monzon these days. That's such a straight up valid and awesome comparison for obvious reasons.
> 
> I think Carlos had a lot of very subtle skill that gets overlooked (or used to) -- his ring generalship, control of distance and poise was on some stone cold shit but I don't like that skipping Valdez to fight Napoles business. Demented fight, and Jose still gave it everything. And of course, Rodrigo's right hand was already mangled when they got it on, though I believe (?) Monzon did sign to fight before the accident.


I remember going over Monzon vs Hagler back at the old house. I forget who I picked, I actually think I had hagler as goat MW, somewhere I got salty down the line though :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I remember going over Monzon vs Hagler back at the old house. I forget who I picked, I actually think I had hagler as goat MW, somewhere I got salty down the line though :lol:


McGrain would get drunk and flip tables over for excluding Fitzsimmons but I'm still so relatively in the dark on the guy. :lol:

I think Greb, Robinson, Monzon and Hagler all have a case for GOAT Middleweight. Robinson dominance wasn't anything like it was at 147, but his record is strong and he was beating many of them coming in *as a welter* prior to finally getting the title shot against LaMotta in '51. Lack of film at welter notwithstanding, I'd say Robinson's punching power actually increased - literally and relative - once he got up to legit 160ish. He was trashing and stopping iron chins.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Gimme that Dick


LMR was next up too! Tiger edged him out.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Greb vs Marciano 3 round prizefighter tournament


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Roberto Duran
03. Sugar Ray Leonard
04. Pernell Whitaker
05. Roy Jones, Jr.
06. Floyd Mayweather jr
07. Manny Pacquiao
08. Carlos Monzon
09. Eder Jofre
10. Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
11. Marvin Hagler
12. Thomas Hearns
13. Emile Griffith
14. Jose Napoles
15. Alexis Arguello
16 .Michael Spinks
17. Bernard Hopkins
18. Carlos Ortiz
19. Ruben Olivares
20. Evander Holyfield
21. Fighting Harada
22. Salvador Sanchez
23. Wilfredo Gomez
24. Vicente Saldivar
25. Dick Tiger
26. Mike McCallum
27. LMR
28. Oscar Dela Hoya
29. Azumah Nelson
30. Larry Holmes
31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Erik Morales
33. Marco Antonio Barrera
34. Bob Foster
35. Wilfred Benitez
36 .James Toney
37. Lennox Lewis
38. Joe Calzaghe
39. Eusebio Pedroza
40. Shane Mosley

--------------------------------------

Jeff Fenech
Ricardo Lopez
Felix Trinidad
Eusebio Pedroza
Wonjongkam
Antonio Cervantes
Mike Tyson
Carl Froch

Look what you've gone and fucking made me do @Hands of Iron


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> McGrain would get drunk and flip tables over for excluding Fitzsimmons but I'm still so relatively in the dark on the guy. :lol:
> 
> I think Greb, Robinson, Monzon and Hagler all have a case for GOAT Middleweight. Robinson dominance wasn't anything like it was at 147, but his record is strong and he was beating many of them coming in *as a welter* prior to finally getting the title shot against LaMotta in '51. Lack of film at welter notwithstanding, I'd say Robinson's punching power actually increased - literally and relative - once he got up to legit 160ish. He was trashing and stopping iron chins.


To expand a bit on this:

LaMotta TKO13
Fullmer KO5
Turpin TKO10
Olson (x3) KO12, KO2, KO4
Graziano KO3 @Vysotsky
Villemain TKO9
Belloise TKO7
Basora KO1
Rindone (x2) TKO6, KO6
Stretz KO5
Hecht KO2

His best T/KO win at Welter was undoubtedly Zivic. Other contenders like Jannazzo, Costner, McDaniels, Doyle, Rubio, Motisi. Nothing that blows away his MW pulverizing. He obliterated people at 160. Robinson was a Puncher-Boxer, not Boxer-Puncher.



turbotime said:


> 01. Muhammad Ali
> 02. Roberto Duran
> 03. Sugar Ray Leonard
> 04. Pernell Whitaker
> ...


Massive Props. We bouncin off each other flawlessly in here like it's 2012 n shit.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How can you not be sore about Mike getting snubbed? He should be there, comfortably. There's also no way in hell James Toney would be out my 25 BEST given how immensely skilled he was as well the argument that beating Michael Nunn (20-1 dog) and McCallum (who was favoured, albeit fuckton closer odds) might be the best pair of wins since '91. Roy Jones fans also demand Toney be in there. I'm referring to the first fight judged a Draw.
> 
> *Do you rate Cholo over Ali?*
> 
> ...


On a personal favourite level?
Perhaps I do.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> McGrain would get drunk and flip tables over for excluding Fitzsimmons but I'm *still so relatively in the dark on the guy. *:lol:
> 
> .


A lot of people are the same about Kalule.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> To expand a bit on this:
> 
> LaMotta TKO13
> Fullmer KO5
> ...


I actually made a thread at the old house about who hit harder Hearns or Robinson, it was pretty much even up as far as poll results go.. As it should've been. Robinson really punched to do harm.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> A lot of people are the same about Kalule.


Like I told @Felix -- Particularly *That Kalule*. Leonard fought, beat and stopped one of the biggest H2H monsters in boxing history. If that's merely your fifth best win, you ought to be King.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Like I told @Felix -- Particularly *That Kalule*. Leonard fought, beat and stopped one of the biggest H2H monsters in boxing history. If that's merely your fifth best win, you ought to be King.


Not what I meant.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> To expand a bit on this:
> 
> Massive Props. We bouncin off each other flawlessly in here like it's 2012 n shit.


I will get to 50! :smoke


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I actually made a thread at the old house about who hit harder Hearns or Robinson, it was pretty much even up as far as poll results go.. As it should've been. Robinson really punched to do harm.


His murderous ways are so inspiring and bring such joy. He UNLOADED on Motherfuckers for real.






The Layla Piano Exit matched to that always, always gets me. God Bless JG, wherever you be.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Roberto Duran
03. Sugar Ray Leonard
04. Pernell Whitaker
05. Roy Jones, Jr.
06. Floyd Mayweather jr
07. Manny Pacquiao
08. Carlos Monzon
09. Eder Jofre
10. Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
11. Marvin Hagler
12. Thomas Hearns
13. Emile Griffith
14. Jose Napoles
15. Alexis Arguello
16 .Michael Spinks
17. Bernard Hopkins
18. Carlos Ortiz
19. Ruben Olivares
20. Evander Holyfield
21. Fighting Harada
22. Salvador Sanchez
23. Wilfredo Gomez
24. Vicente Saldivar
25. Dick Tiger
26. Mike McCallum
27. LMR
28. Oscar Dela Hoya
29. Azumah Nelson
30. Larry Holmes
31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Erik Morales
33. Marco Antonio Barrera
34. Bob Foster
35. Wilfred Benitez
36 .James Toney
38. George Foreman
37. Lennox Lewis
39. Joe Calzaghe
40. Eusebio Pedroza
41, Shane Mosley
42. Antonio Cervantes
43. Felix Trinidad
44. Ricardo Lopez
45. Jeff Fenech
46. Mike Tyson
47. Ernesto Marcel
48. Aaron Pryor
49. Carl Froch
50. Kostya Tszyu

Look what you've gone and fucking made me do @Hands of Iron


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

People will want you dead for excluding Chang. Probably do the dirty work themselves.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> People will want you dead for excluding Chang. Probably do the dirty work themselves.


Fuck Chang. Lopez is even lucky to make my list.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> On a personal favourite level?
> Perhaps I do.


Too serious and dry. He's flat out more skilled if you ask me. Doesn't even need to be on a personal level.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Fuck Chang. Lopez is even lucky to make my list.


:rofl


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

turbotime said:


> 01. Muhammad Ali
> 02. Roberto Duran
> 03. Sugar Ray Leonard
> 04. Pernell Whitaker
> ...


George Foreman? Michael Moorer? Joe Frazier? An argument could be made for all three


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

knowimuch said:


> George Foreman? Michael Moorer? Joe Frazier? An argument could be made for all three


He'll face pat later that when he isn't throwing it all together in a matter of hours.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Hands of Iron said:


> He'll face pat later that when he isn't throwing it all together in a matter of hours.


Thats the reason I am never going to make a p4p list, you always forget one or two. That being said thought all the lists in this thread were pretty solid. Better than the ESPN shit a few weeks ago


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> George Foreman? Michael Moorer? Joe Frazier? An argument could be made for all three


:sad5


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

knowimuch said:


> Thats the reason I am never going to make a p4p list, you always forget one or two. That being said thought all the lists in this thread were pretty solid. Better than the ESPN shit a few weeks ago


A hell of a lot harder to compile too. And this is basically only 1960-present. There's few people in the world that could put together a thoroughly educated Top 100 spanning the entire history.



turbotime said:


> :sad5


Couple of forgivable omissions given how rushed it was. Plus I think knowimuch said he's like 6'5 245 and could crush us under the weight of his thumb. He's biased for the Heavies.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Hands of Iron said:


> A hell of a lot harder to compile too. And this is basically only 1960-present. There's few people in the world that could put together a thoroughly educated Top 100 spanning the entire history.
> 
> Couple of forgivable omissions given how rushed it was. Plus I think knowimuch said he's like 6'5 245 and could crush us under the weight of his thumb. He's biased for the Heavies.


I am 6,4 but not 245 or close to that. I think a other user was closer to that, I remember reading one guy was 230 or something maybe MW. I lost some weight and am closer to 175 now, lost a ton of weight but I was 210+ a while ago. Trying to get fit for the summer. If I was a fighter weight cutting would propably be my best quality, got those yo-yo weight genes.

On the list I feel you man, its easier to pick holes in a list than actually make a good list yourself. Heavy is my favorite weightclass so I could propably do a top 20 thats reasonable on that list.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> A hell of a lot harder to compile too. And this is basically only 1960-present. There's few people in the world that could put together a thoroughly educated Top 100 spanning the entire history.
> 
> Couple of forgivable omissions given how rushed it was. Plus I think knowimuch said he's like 6'5 245 and could crush us under the weight of his thumb. He's biased for the Heavies.


I have a hard time squeezing heavies in there....but yeah Foreman should be in there for sure



knowimuch said:


> I am 6,4 but not 245 or close to that. I think a other user was closer to that, I remember reading one guy was 230 or something maybe MW. I lost some weight and am closer to 175 now, lost a ton of weight but I was 210+ a while ago. Trying to get fit for the summer. If I was a fighter weight cutting would propably be my best quality, got those yo-yo weight genes.
> 
> On the list I feel you man, its easier to pick holes in a list than actually make a good list yourself. Heavy is my favorite weightclass so I could propably do a top 20 thats reasonable on that list.


Ever since you introduced me to Dodge the Rodge you're now always forgiven :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

knowimuch said:


> I am 6,4 but not 245 or close to that. I think a other user was closer to that, I remember reading one guy was 230 or something maybe MW. I lost some weight and am closer to 175 now, lost a ton of weight but I was 210+ a while ago. Trying to get fit for the summer. If I was a fighter weight cutting would propably be my best quality, got those yo-yo weight genes.
> 
> On the list I feel you man, its easier to pick holes in a list than actually make a good list yourself. Heavy is my favorite weightclass so I could propably do a top 20 thats reasonable on that list.


Knew I was exaggerating. :lol: I believe you are talking about MW, and he looks every damn bit of it. No bully though, and flat-footed.



turbotime said:


> I have a hard time squeezing heavies in there....but yeah Foreman should be in there for sure


Actually beat a fairly shockingly low number of good fighters but the destructions of Frazier and Norton were obscene displays of dominance (over two Ali conquerers) and winning the title back 20 years later an absurd achievement no matter what you feel about Moorer or how the fight was going.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Knew I was exaggerating. :lol: I believe you are talking about MW, and he looks every damn bit of it. No bully though, and flat-footed.
> 
> Actually beat a fairly shockingly low number of good fighters but the destructions of Frazier and Norton were obscene displays of dominance (over two Ali conquerers) and winning the title back 20 years later an absurd achievement no matter what you feel about Moorer or how the fight was going.


Seriously, there will be days where I'm rating Lewis over Foreman as like the 4th best heavyweight ever, then other days i'll do a total switch. I dunno. I think Foreman's winning back the belt is just too great to ignore most days.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

turbotime said:


> I have a hard time squeezing heavies in there....but yeah Foreman should be in there for sure
> 
> Ever since you introduced me to Dodge the Rodge you're now always forgiven :lol:


:good

I forgot to tell a slightly amusing anecdote about the Rodge, in my local bar there are tons of international students from all over the place, so somehow I got talking with a American about the Supreme Gentleman (I think he started to talk about it). apparently he was friends with a guyss brother who was shot in the event. (not killed, but a bullet wound he made it out alright). I told him that he should convince his friends brother to sell the bullet if still had it (don't now if you can keep it or that it is included in the evidence). Told him there is propably a market for things like that. It is really a small world


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@knowimuch Where the fuck were you when I was on my Toney binges years ago? :lol: :-( I took so much shit. Most of what I said was true though, fuck 'em. There's just these welts he has man that are... really, really bad. Losing (in reality) to a faded McCallum no biggie but Tiberi was a fucking debacle. His big legacy fight one of the most embarrassingly one-sided in history. He had some great wins and performances beyond 168 but was a blubbering, lazy mess half the time, so many nothing fights, bad luck. Dropping Jackie Kallen after RJJ was a huge mistake.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hagler is too high. I rate Mayweather and Pacquiao above him


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Hagler is too high. I rate Mayweather and Pacquiao above him


Read Thru.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Read Thru.


Yeah I just saw yall already mention that :yep.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Yeah I just saw yall already mention that :yep.


I completely butchered one of your quotes about SRR/Duran in another thread to make Leonard look bad. :lol: Complete with Duran GIF ripping off a pull counter. I mean, I dunno if you consider SRL 'more skilled' than Robinson as well, I think his overall technique was a little tighter, defense better. It pays Robinson enough a compliment to say that he had the greatest P4P combination of Power, Speed and Chin ever. That'll make you damn near unbeatable when you have the boxing ability he still did possess in spades.

Anyway though, sorry for butchering it.

http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...onard-on-his-record.60911/page-5#post-2481227

It's good though because then the conversation somehow turned into Floyd.


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

I put Whitaker above Ali, yeah shoot me now.


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Hands of Iron said:


> @knowimuch Where the fuck were you when I was on my Toney binges years ago? :lol: :-( I took so much shit. Most of what I said was true though, fuck 'em. There's just these welts he has man that are... really, really bad. Losing (in reality) to a faded McCallum no biggie but Tiberi was a fucking debacle. His big legacy fight one of the most embarrassingly one-sided in history. He had some great wins and performances beyond 168 but was a blubbering, lazy mess half the time, so many nothing fights, bad luck. Dropping Jackie Kallen after RJJ was a huge mistake.


Propably not that into boxing, think I followed the sport on and off since 2006/2007 and was 15 (edit: correction 13/14) or so. My biggest problem with the sport is that its not alive in my country and you have to stay up late to catch the big fights and you have to stream or download them later, and if the stream stops well you just wasted a lot of time. Maybe the reason I like Wlad so much, he fights at times that are reasonable.

Think Toney-Peter was the first fight I watched, not including obligatory Ali/Tyson fight clips. I just rooted for the guy because I didn't like Peters rabbit punches. Later I learned more and more about him and the slickness he was in his prime. From a aesthical viewpoint he, on his best, is one of the best to watch. Toney just had great heights and great lows. The RJJ fight is painful but Jones is great and Toney too flat footed to catch up with him. Altough a rematch at heavy or cruiser in early the 00's would have been nice.
Talking about Kallen, I always thought his star of David trunks in tribute to her were one of the best in boxing


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

turbotime said:


> 01. Muhammad Ali
> 02. Roberto Duran
> 03. Sugar Ray Leonard
> 04. Pernell Whitaker
> ...


Bring on the next 50!

(not)


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Vic said:


> I put Whitaker above Ali, yeah *shoot me now.*


Eh? Not exactly my first reaction to a statement like this.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Vic said:


> I put Whitaker above Ali, yeah shoot me now.


why?


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> why?


As much as I like Ali, the persona, the fighter even, how big his fights were...... and all. Whitaker is a better fighter to me, I don´t believe anymore in the division "greater fighter" "better fighter", I think if you_ feel a fighter is better fighting boxing than another fighter you put him above the other, period_, we are judging who fights better period.


----------



## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> His murderous ways are so inspiring and bring such joy. He UNLOADED on Motherfuckers for real.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh, how fucking sexy is that?


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Saldivar must be loving you guys.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

And Whitaker above Ali?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Vic said:


> As much as I like Ali, the persona, the fighter even, how big his fights were...... and all. Whitaker is a better fighter to me, I don´t believe anymore in the division "greater fighter" "better fighter", I think if you_ feel a fighter is better fighting boxing than another fighter you put him above the other, period_, we are judging who fights better period.


What about their resumes?

Ali has the better wins and H2H he is every bit as unorthodox and weird as sweet pea.




























Dont know if Whitaker was ever better than 64-67 Ali. Even if you do, the difference has to be so neglible since they are both p4p ATG fighters. thats why i dont get the criteria for saying whitaker is better, hes probably not better prime for prime and he doesn't have a better resume than ali.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I completely butchered one of your quotes about SRR/Duran in another thread to make Leonard look bad. :lol: Complete with Duran GIF ripping off a pull counter. I mean, I dunno if you consider SRL 'more skilled' than Robinson as well, I think his overall technique was a little tighter, defense better. It pays Robinson enough a compliment to say that he had the greatest P4P combination of Power, Speed and Chin ever. That'll make you damn near unbeatable when you have the boxing ability he still did possess in spades.
> 
> Anyway though, sorry for butchering it.
> 
> ...


:yep you're good. That's actually a pretty good read.


----------



## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Wish we could have got Robinson versus Lausse and Sands.


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> What about their resumes?
> 
> Ali has the better wins and H2H he is every bit as unorthodox and weird as sweet pea.
> 
> ...


What is resume ? How you judge best wins ?

If you think Liston was a greatly skilled fighter, tough as fuck to beat, a hell on earth to beat, then it is a good win. If my opinion is that he was a big guy with a good jab but not a great heart or/and with terrible footwork, is it still a good win ?

You know what I mean ?

We are judging based on our perceptions of how good a guy is fighting.
I think Ali was helped by the circunstances, and got a reputation that he deserves but doesn´t reflect how good he was as a fighter, you know, his reputation as a great is bigger than how great he was inside the ring. (he was GREAT don´t get me wrong, but I think Pernell was just as great, too bad he doesn´t have the same reputation)


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

I know it will look like I dislike Ali somehow, but not at all I love the guy.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Vic said:


> What is resume ? How you judge best wins ?
> 
> If you think Liston was a greatly skilled fighter, tough as fuck to beat, a hell on earth to beat, then it is a good win. If my opinion is that he was a big guy with a good jab but not a great heart or/and with terrible footwork, is it still a good win ?


Well Liston was an ATG heavyweight who was in the middle of his reign and had just sparked Floyd Patterson twice. So yeah that's a great win and regardless of what you think it's regarded as a great win across the board. Even if you don't rate Liston, Liston is regarded as a great heavyweight and could also be argued as a top 10 HW as well. So yeh its an awesome win and Sweet Pea doesn't really have anything like it.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Well Liston was an ATG heavyweight who was in the middle of his reign and had just sparked Floyd Patterson twice. So yeah that's a great win and regardless of what you think it's regarded as a great win across the board. Even if you don't rate Liston, Liston is regarded as a great heavyweight and could also be argued as a top 10 HW as well. So yeh its an awesome win and Sweet Pea doesn't really have anything like it.


I dunno, Buddy McGirt was rated in the top 10 P4P.


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Well Liston was an ATG heavyweight who was in the middle of his reign and had just sparked Floyd Patterson twice. So yeah that's a great win and regardless of what you think it's regarded as a great win across the board. Even if you don't rate Liston, Liston is regarded as a great heavyweight and could also be argued as a top 10 HW as well. So yeh its an awesome win and Sweet Pea doesn't really have anything like it.


He sparked Patterson, who had no business at HW if it was not Cus matching him right in there, no Tommy, Liston was a real good fighter but I don´t consider him a great fighter..


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Liston arguably was 40 years old when faced Ali too btw.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Saldivar over Sanchez


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Vic said:


> He sparked Patterson, who had no business at HW if it was not Cus matching him right in there, no Tommy, Liston was a real good fighter but I don´t consider him a great fighter..


Well for someone that had no business at heavyweight, Patterson did pretty good didn't he? Beat Ellis, Machen Quarry x2, Bonavena, Cooper, Chuvalo, & Johannson @ HW. Good resume, Patterson himself is arguably a top 20-30 ATG HW depending on your criteria.

Once again a lot of people would disagree with your claim about Liston being just "good" and there is no evidence he was 40 years old vs Ali. H2H Liston is a wrecking ball, he would have demolished any other HW at that moment but Ali was teh goods.


----------



## Juiceboxbiotch (May 16, 2013)

Weird seeing Michael Spinks on the list (and quite high on it) and no mention of Mike Tyson. Not that Tyson deserves to be on the list... it's just weird.

Thats all I'm sayin


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Why still use Cleveland as an example?
He was literally shot


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Why still use Cleveland as an example?
> He was literally shot


doesnt matter.

I just used it as an example as one of Ali's amazing performances.

You can swap it with Terrell if you want, it doesnt matter. the level of opponent doesnt matter here its about Ali's talent ond isplay.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> doesnt matter.
> 
> I just used it as an example as one of Ali's amazing performances.
> 
> You can swap it with Terrell if you want, it doesnt matter. the level of opponent doesnt matter here its about Ali's talent ond isplay.


Then Roy Jones is more amazing with the speed and power he showed against most of his overmatched opposition.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Juiceboxbiotch said:


> Weird seeing Michael Spinks on the list (and quite high on it) and no mention of Mike Tyson. Not that Tyson deserves to be on the list... it's just weird.
> 
> Thats all I'm sayin


In a p4p sense Spinks is better but he had a much shorter career compared to Tyson and I don't know that he was ever as dominant as Tyson for whatever that's worth.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

dyna said:


> Why still use Cleveland as an example?
> He was literally shot


Its his favorite gif, leave Tommy alone


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Then Roy Jones is more amazing with the speed and power he showed against most of his overmatched opposition.


I agree, Roy was phenomenal in his prime.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Saldivar over Sanchez


Chavez is not a top 5 Mexican and @Hands of Iron knows it.

He just can't deal with it.

Poor guy - first he finds out he sucks at everything and now this.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Everything turned out alright :lol:

Y'all musta forgot


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Everything turned out alright :lol:
> 
> Y'all musta forgot


I don't really think Roy was "more amazing" or whatever but it's not really more impressive to me than Ali schooling Liston or Terrell. at that point it depends what you like more


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I don't really think Roy was "more amazing" or whatever but it's not really more impressive to me than Ali schooling Liston or Terrell. at that point it depends what you like more


Roy's win over Toney stacks up with any of Prime Ali's wins IMO


----------



## Juiceboxbiotch (May 16, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> In a p4p sense Spinks is better but he had a much shorter career compared to Tyson and I don't know that he was ever as dominant as Tyson for whatever that's worth.


But I contend that p4p means "pound for pound", which means that Spinks should have continued his dominance outside 175 to be listed so high on this list. His whole heavyweight resume is basically 2 very close decisions with old Holmes and 91 seconds of getting mopped up by Tyson.

He was clearly one of the best light-heavies of all time but p4p? I dunno man.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Roy's win over Toney stacks up with any of Prime Ali's wins IMO


 wouldnt argue with that m8

cept maybe toney was weight drained? Is there any truth to that or is it nonsense?


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Juiceboxbiotch said:


> But I contend that p4p means "pound for pound", which means that Spinks should have continued his dominance outside 175 to be listed so high on this list. *His whole heavyweight resume is basically 2 very close decisions with old Holmes* and 91 seconds of getting mopped up by Tyson.
> 
> He was clearly one of the best light-heavies of all time but p4p? I dunno man.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> wouldnt argue with that m8
> 
> cept maybe toney was weight drained? Is there any truth to that or is it nonsense?


Ive heard so many stories man, it's hard to know with JT. He has such a big yap he'd have an excuse as to why he didn't knock a guy out sooner. To be fair, if I was embarrassed like that I'd have excuses ready too.

The Ali and Liston fight wasn't an absolute beating either, let's be honest. Ali was ahead but just barely.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Ive heard so many stories man, it's hard to know with JT. He has such a big yap he'd have an excuse as to why he didn't knock a guy out sooner. To be fair, if I was embarrassed like that I'd have excuses ready too.
> 
> The Ali and Liston fight wasn't an absolute beating either, let's be honest. Ali was ahead but just barely.


Ali was embarrassing him and was on his way to giving him a beating but Liston quit.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Ali was embarrassing him and was on his way to giving him a beating but Liston quit.


Yeah, Liston was weird as hell.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Chavez is not a top 5 Mexican and @Hands of Iron knows it.
> 
> He just can't deal with it.
> 
> Poor guy - first he finds out he sucks at everything and now this.


:lol:


----------



## Juiceboxbiotch (May 16, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


>


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Juiceboxbiotch said:


>


I just find it amusing how you worded it. Almost as if beating Holmes wasn't some kind of incredible victory, which it absolutely was. 6-1 underdog. You can count the amount of former Light Heavyweights who would have beaten even that version of Holmes on one hand.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I just find it amusing how you worded it. Almost as if beating Holmes wasn't some kind of incredible victory, which it absolutely was. 6-1 underdog. You can count the amount of former Light Heavyweights who would have beaten even that version of Holmes on one hand.


Not to mention Spinks is pretty much an A+ on the eye test + a good resume.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> Saldivar over Sanchez


Shush.


----------



## Juiceboxbiotch (May 16, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I just find it amusing how you worded it. Almost as if beating Holmes wasn't some kind of incredible victory, which it absolutely was. 6-1 underdog. You can count the amount of former Light Heavyweights who would have beaten even that version of Holmes on one hand.


Nah that's true. Not saying those weren't good wins... but my point was more that they were really close and debated decisions. It's not as if he dominated Holmes even once. And then of course Tyson sprayed the mat with his brains.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I just find it amusing how you worded it. Almost as if beating Holmes wasn't some kind of incredible victory, which it absolutely was. 6-1 underdog. You can count the amount of former Light Heavyweights who would have beaten even that version of Holmes on one hand.


It's a good win but Holmes should have been former champ after the Carl Williams bout plus he was 35/36 with a waist wider than his age.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Not to mention Spinks is pretty much an A+ on the eye test + a good resume.


He should be in front of most.



Pedderrs said:


> I dunno, Buddy McGirt was rated in the top 10 P4P.


:rofl

I know Pernell's limits.



turbotime said:


> Roy's win over Toney stacks up with any of Prime Ali's wins IMO


What about past-prime Ali beating Foreman? Could probably count on one hand the number of victories in boxing history on the level of that. I don't like Moohammad one bit but fuck me, he beat three arguable Top 10 ATG's (IMO) within his division - Wat?! - and his resume as a whole is so ridiculously deep.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> What about past-prime Ali beating Foreman? Could probably count on one hand the number of victories in boxing history on the level of that. I don't like Moohammad one bit but fuck me, he beat three arguable Top 10 ATG's (IMO) within his division - Wat?! - and his resume as a whole is so ridiculously deep.


No fucking shit which is why Ali has an argument for #1.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> No fucking shit.












Well, it just read as a weird sort of statement comparing it specifically and only to "Prime Ali's wins".


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well, it just read as a weird sort of statement comparing it specifically and only to "Prime Ali's wins".


I didn't bring up the 'prime' stuff.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> What about past-prime Ali beating Foreman? Could probably count on one hand the number of victories in boxing history on the level of that. I don't like Moohammad one bit but fuck me, he beat three arguable Top 10 ATG's (IMO) within his division - Wat?! - and his resume as a whole is so ridiculously deep.


Yeah, at least you're capable of separating his politics from his boxing career. Dooran was a pretend "bad dude", Ali was one for real.



> It's a good win but Holmes should have been former champ after the Carl Williams bout plus he was 35/36 with a waist wider than his age.


It's a great win. Spinks was no spring chicken himself and hadn't looked particularly terrific since he beat Qawi.



> Nah that's true. Not saying those weren't good wins... but my point was more that they were really close and debated decisions. It's not as if he dominated Holmes even once. And then of course Tyson sprayed the mat with his brains.


The fact they were debatable decisions does not detract from the achievements at all. Spinks went into the first fight a 6-1 underdog and probably went into the rematch as an underdog too. In my mind, Spinks outboxed Holmes fairly conclusively at least once. I didn't think the first fight was all that debatable really. One man clearly wanted it more and worked harder for it. A great win, a huge upset, and anything he would achieve after that is nothing but a bonus. No Light Heavyweight champion in history moves up to defeat an 80s Tyson. It doesn't happen.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I didn't bring up the 'prime' stuff.


:conf

You didn't do anything to stop it.



Pedderrs said:


> Yeah, at least you're capable of separating his politics from his boxing career. Dooran was a pretend "bad dude", Ali was one for real.
> 
> It's a great win. Spinks was no spring chicken himself and hadn't looked particularly terrific since he beat Qawi.
> 
> The fact they were debatable decisions does not detract from the achievements at all. Spinks went into the first fight a 6-1 underdog and probably went into the rematch as an underdog too. In my mind, Holmes outboxed Spinks conclusively at least once. I didn't think the first fight was all that debatable really. One man clearly wanted it more and worked harder for it. A great win, a huge upset, and anything he would achieve therefore is nothing but a bonus. No Light Heavyweight champion in history moves up to defeat an 80s Tyson. It doesn't happen.


Come hell or high water, there's going to be justice for Spinks. His LHW reign qualifies him as a Top 5 ATG within his division, his skills make him arguably the #1 H2H fighter in that division - plus - he knocked off a Top 10 ATG Heavyweight. The brevity of his career and number of fights is largely irrelevant. He's very SRL-ish.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Pattycake, that's me, bake the pies / Pyrex, mixed that, scrape the sides


Why not in here? 

You used to love this stuff. Trust, it's still more interesting than Gasnelo/Mere Con.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :conf
> 
> You didn't do anything to stop it.
> 
> Come hell or high water, there's going to be justice for Spinks. His LHW reign qualifies him as a Top 5 ATG within his division, his skills make him arguably the #1 H2H fighter in that division - plus - he knocked off a Top 10 ATG Heavyweight. The brevity of his career and number of fights is largely irrelevant. He's very SRL-ish.


History has not been kind to Mike. It was bad enough that he's largely remembered for being the guy who was blown away by Mike Tyson in double quick time, but now we have people downplaying, discrediting or steadfast denying his greatest career achievement in besting the undefeated Larry Holmes. They discredit the victories by telling us how horribly past prime Larry Holmes was but forget to mention that Michael Spinks wasn't really at his peak either. He arguably lost to Davis in '82 and had looked pretty poor against Sears and MacDonald before finding the stoppages. If that doesn't work, the same people will then downplay the victories by complaining that Spinks only managed to marginally outpoint Holmes as opposed to dominate him -- a man who hadn't tasted defeat as a professional and who was the natural Heavyweight of the two. I've even heard posters suggest that Holmes deserved both decisions. Lunacy. Larry didn't want it as much as Mike did the first time they met. He expected to just turn up and blow the career Light Heavyweight over and it didn't happen. The rematch was a much closer affair in fairness and could conceivably have been scored either way. But the mere fact Spinks was competitive in these fights is a credit to him. Perspective people.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> History has not been kind to Mike. It was bad enough that he's largely remembered for being the guy who was blown away by Mike Tyson in double quick time, but now we have people downplaying, discrediting or steadfast denying his greatest career achievement in besting the undefeated Larry Holmes. They discredit the victories by telling us how horribly past prime Larry Holmes was but forget to mention that Michael Spinks wasn't really at his peak either. He arguably lost to Davis in '82 and had looked pretty poor against Sears and MacDonald before finding the stoppages. If that doesn't work, the same people will then downplay the victories by complaining that Spinks only managed to marginally outpoint Holmes as opposed to dominate him -- a man who hadn't tasted defeat as a professional and who was the natural Heavyweight of the two. I've even heard posters suggest that Holmes deserved both decisions. Lunacy. Larry didn't want it as much as Mike did the first time they met. He expected to just turn up and blow the career Light Heavyweight over and it didn't happen. The rematch was a much closer affair in fairness and could conceivably have been scored either way. But the mere fact Spinks was competitive in these fights is a credit to him. Perspective people.


Flames.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :conf
> 
> You didn't do anything to stop it.


it was really just a talking point.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> it was really just a talking point.


Homicide Hank's win over Barney Ross.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Homicide Hank's win over Barney Ross.


Yeah def. I did a top wins list awhile ago, that was a top 5 one im pretty sure IIRC


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah def. I did a top wins list awhile ago, that was a top 5 one im pretty sure IIRC


Future freshly minted thread worthy topic with clean slate.



turbotime said:


> Shush.


I don't think @Pedderrs was particularly impressed with Saldivar. Or may have been Sanchez, I forget. That's a fight for Zopilote though.



Lester1583 said:


> Chavez is not a top 5 Mexican and @Hands of Iron knows it.
> 
> He just can't deal with it.
> 
> Poor guy - first he finds out he sucks at everything and now this.


Haven't forgot about you. Ought to share some of those jewels in the main though.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> Wish we could have got Robinson versus Lausse and Sands.


Lausse toyed with his best win.

While Robby was busy cherry-picking feather fisted lalondes and making up laughable excuses.

"I sweat a lot!"

Yeah, right.

Different league.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Ought to share some of those jewels in the main though.


Nobody wants to see your jewels, mate.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Nobody wants to see your jewels, mate.


Other inboxes say differently. I'm only interested in boxing here.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

no one has a top 10 at least??


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> no one has a top 10 at least??


Where's frankenfrank?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Where's frankenfrank?


banned, no?


----------



## Brownies (Jun 7, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Not to mention Spinks is pretty much an A+ on the eye test + a good resume.


Also,people seem to forget that Holmes fought for another 17 years afterwards. 10 years after the Spinks fight, he nearly got a title back against McCall (from what I remember but I saw the fight long ago). I mean beating a 35 years old Meldrick Taylor isn't the same as beating a 35 years old Bernard Hopkins.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> banned, no?


I'm not really seeing Monzon/Hagler over the likes of Napoles and Spinks. Michael's case already been laid out pretty nicely, generally, but Napoles basically achieved at welterweight - undersized and past his prime for most of it - what they did as career middleweights. And that was after practically cleaning out 140 without a title shot he'd more than earned if you take a gander at the fighters he was beating there.

Carlos and Marvin are mostly ATG's for putting together two of the most dominant championship reigns of any division together, not necessarily for the loads of great 160 lbers they took out. In an achievement sense, I don't really see how Spinks W at Heavyweight doesn't put him over P4P given he's a Top 5 LHW. Nor Napoles work at 135-140 before cementing himself as a Top 5 WW.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I don't think @Pedderrs was particularly impressed with Saldivar. Or may have been Sanchez, I forget. That's a fight for Zopilote though.
> 
> .


Better resume, better reign in a much better Featherweight era, more skillful and versatile fighter.

Yeah, Saldivar got this.

Would be one hell of a fight for sure.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

yeh Monzon is too high but Hagler is fine. He beat 3 ATGs in leonard duran and hearns. that alone says it all no need to go further.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Better resume, better reign in a much better Featherweight era, more skillful and versatile fighter.
> 
> Yeah, Saldivar got this.
> 
> Would be one hell of a fight for sure.


Why won't you adopt Mantequilla?


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why won't you adopt Mantequilla?


Mantequilla is the shit.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Mantequilla is the shit.


Stating the obvious here but boxing is super fucking niche, man. :lol: The vast majority of people who post on *boxing forums* either don't know nor care about the majority of topics spoken about in this thread. It's a little crazy to think about. How's it feel to be - probably - one of the Top 100-150 boxing historians in the world, bruh. FFS.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Jones Jr is a drug cheat and shouldn't be ranked


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah def. I did a top wins list awhile ago, that was a top 5 one im pretty sure IIRC


Yeah, but Ross was "past it" at 28 years old with the only defeat he'd suffered in the previous seven years leading up to the fight coming at the hands of Jimmy McLarnin, whom Ross beat twice. Makes sense. And of course, he won the Lightweight Title off Lou Ambers three months _after_ this.

DOB: 12/12/12


----------



## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> yeh Monzon is too high but Hagler is fine. He beat 3 ATGs in leonard duran and hearns. that alone says it all no need to go further.


He beat Leonard? Officially he lost and regardless how you scored it (i edge it towards Marvin) it was a close fight that can't be considered a robbery so the official result can't just be thrown out. Spinks was just as dominant during his reign, fought in a better era and while Duran and Hearns rate higher in an ATG sense i would make the case that Mustafa was a more formidable LHW than Duran a MW. Same for Qawi over Hearns as a MW whose best win at the weight is Roldan along with the Barkley KO loss.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Montreal McCall will always be the #1


----------



## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Stating the obvious here but boxing is super fucking niche, man. :lol: The vast majority of people who post on *boxing forums* either don't know nor care about the majority of topics spoken about in this thread. It's a little crazy to think about.* How's it feel to be - probably - one of the Top 100-150 boxing historians in the world, bruh. FFS*.


I assume that's hyperbole? They're may be a couple folks in the ESB/CHB universe who are that level but doubt anyone here. Guarantee you could find over 100 examples of random guys, old men in Japan, Italy, Argentina, Panama etc all over that could give a fuck about computers and keep to themselves whose knowledge would monster most everyones on here.

I remember Pedders from ESB days but i honestly can't remember seeing him post at all for a very long time until the last several weeks. His overall knowledge seems A+ and i'v always found the whole Winona thing very endearing. You still have the same admiration for her @Pedderrs ?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> I assume that's hyperbole? They're may be a couple folks in the ESB/CHB universe who are that level but doubt anyone here.


Yes.

Lamentation over the lack of activity.


----------



## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yes.
> 
> Lamentation over the lack of activity.


You watched Amelie yet?


----------



## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

You see Golden Boy's latest move? Bernard saying Golovkin needs to fight Kovalev at LHW to earn a shot at Canelo. smh

P.S. Part of me selfishly does want to see that before Golovkin retires. Test himself to the max and see if he can pull off some Walker level of badassness but it is unfair to ask in all reality and completely ridiculous at this stage of his career.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> You watched Amelie yet?


I've resisted the urge.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> It's a good win but Holmes should have been former champ after the Carl Williams bout


Should have been Witherspoon defending his title against The Truth with Page and Pinklon in attendance.

And Larry staying at home and quietly sipping from a nice big cup of shut-the-fuck-up about being underrated.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Should have been Witherspoon defending his title against The Truth with Page and Pinklon in attendance.
> 
> And Larry staying at home and quietly sipping from a nice big cup of shut-the-fuck-up about being underrated.


:flabbynsick

Tyson takes him out at 16.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Foreman had his grill.
Why did Larry never advertise peanuts?


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> You see Golden Boy's latest move? Bernard saying Golovkin needs to fight Kovalev at LHW to earn a shot at Canelo. smh
> 
> P.S. Part of me selfishly does want to see that before Golovkin retires. Test himself to the max and see if he can pull off some Walker level of badassness but it is unfair to ask in all reality and completely ridiculous at this stage of his career.


Golovkin vs Guillermo Jones


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Chacal said:


> Jones Jr is a drug cheat and shouldn't be ranked


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

dyna said:


> Foreman had his grill.
> Why did Larry never advertise peanuts?


He should've made his own jockstrap company


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Homicide Hank's win over Barney Ross.


Over an ancient blind paralyzed Barney Ross.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm not really seeing Monzon/Hagler over the likes of Napoles and Spinks.


P4P ratings aren't based on common sense.

You're not convincing anybody.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> You watched Amelie yet?





Hands of Iron said:


> I've resisted the urge.


Awash in a sick sensation, ravaged, debauched, not emancipated
Sapient abomination, sucking in the covetous myrmidon
Swollen, satiated, glutted from metempsychosis
Devouring without prejudice, engulfing, consuming, incorporating

Defy it, save yourself
Survive
Defy it, save yourself
Survive


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I don't think @Pedderrs was particularly impressed with Saldivar. Or may have been Sanchez, I forget. That's a fight for Zopilote though.


I like Saldivar on film. It's Sanchez I always struggled with, buddy.

What are your thoughts on Sal?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Not sure how someone could say that Sanchez doesn't look impressive on film.

My knowledge isn't the best when it comes to Sal, but his resume is pretty damn good considering how his career was cut short. The Lopez fights show some great counter punching. Nelson was a war & a great all around performance. LaPorte and ruben castillo were solid as well. 

Also that Gomez fight was an amazing destruction of an ATG fighter. 

Yea I know "BUT GOMEZ WASN'T AT HIS BEST WEIGHT CLASS" bla bla he was undefeated and was still very effective at featherweight.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Not sure how someone could say that Sanchez doesn't look impressive on film.


That's because you're a narrow-minded runt, Tommy. A lovable runt though.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

@Pedderrs how about that performance by Saldivar against Ultiminio Ramos??


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> That's because you're a narrow-minded runt, Tommy. A lovable runt though.


Looks better than Barrera does on film, and he never got knocked out by someone like Junior Jones.

instead he battered Wilfredo fucking gomez who is a great fighter himself.'










Here is Gomez throwing a nice little check left hook


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Looks better than Barrera does on film, and he never got knocked out twice by someone like Junior Jones.
> 
> instead he battered Wilfredo fucking gomez who is a great fighter himself.'
> 
> ...


Thomas, you hurt my feelings.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Wilfredo Gomez had the perfect style for Chava

I think that fight is The anomaly of Salvador's career.
Great performance, but also an opponent he would have always handed his ass to him.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Saldivar vs Sanchez :ibutt

Their styles match up so well, it would be an epic war.

@Lester1583


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Saldivar vs Sanchez :ibutt
> 
> Their styles match up so well, it would be an epic war.


That's why Sanchez is above Saldivar.

Cuz he would win this one.

Height, reach, movement and counterpunching hairstyle to prevail at range.
Toughness, stamina and poise to weather Zurdo's gradually increasing combo onslaught.

Marquez vs Rosario - now that would have been an epic...

LOSS for Juan!!!


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> P4P Ratings aren't based on common sense.


:lol: :yep



Pedderrs said:


> I like Saldivar on film. It's Sanchez I always struggled with, buddy.
> 
> What are your thoughts on Sal?


Gonna be lazy here:

Easily one of the greatest talents Mexico has ever produced and from a country that breeds fighting machines, Sanchez might best be described as an aggressive counter-puncher who was capable from all ranges with excellent timing and accuracy. Physically - at 5'7 with a 67" reach - he possessed above average speed, reflexes, power and an excellent chin that was tested and proven, but likely even greater was his immense stamina, conditioning and uncanny poise in the ring. By far one of the most relaxed fighters ever seen on film for my money. There's often a lot of back-and-forth in regards to how 'overrated' he's become as a result of his extremely premature death, but his talent and ability certainly isn't up for much debate. Depending on how high you care to rate him all-time, I don't believe his record is either.

Wilfredo Gomez
Azumah Nelson
Danny Lopez (x2) 
Juan LaPorte
Ruben Castillo
Pat Cowdell
Patrick Ford
Roberto Castanon

By only age 23 with miniscule amateur experience to speak of, Sanchez compiled a 44-1-1 (32) pro record, won the Lineal/WBC Featherweight Championship of the world and hastily strung together (9) title defenses against predominantly top caliber opposition. He had four fights against three legit ATG/HOF guys and won all of them. In terms of numbers, he beat as many rated featherweight champions/contenders in under three years as Roberto Duran did at lightweight in seven.

He won arguably the biggest and most significant fight in the history of the Mexico-Puerto Rico rivalry with each country's very best fighter both in their prime. Dubbed "The Battle of the Little Giants", it took place August 21, 1981 at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas . Wilfredo Gomez (32-0-1, 32 KO) came into the fight as a 2-1 favorite, was considered one of the best fighters P4P in the sport, undoubtedly it's best and most savage accumulative puncher and has since earned universal acclaim as an ATG. To get a small idea of the magnitude of Sal's TKO8 triumph here (as well as his run in general), Ray Leonard beating undefeated versions Thomas Hearns (32-0, 30 KOs) and RING/Lineal/WBA LMW champ Ayub Kalule (36-0) in the same calendar year in addition to being one of the most popular figures in the history of the sport (even at that point in time) wasn't enough to get Fighter of the Year honors for himself - he shared it with Salvador Sanchez in 1981.

When Sanchez won his title from RING/Lineal/WBC Champion Danny "Little Red" Lopez (42-3, 39 KO) it was another instance of him going in as an underdog, this time against a fighter who had been on top of the division for over three years and was riding an 18-fight winning streak (16 by KO) with wins over Ruben Olivares, David Kotey (x2), Art Hafey, Mike Ayala (RING's 1979 Fight of the Year), Roberto Castanon and Juan Domingo Malvarez. Never particularly hard to find - to say the least - Lopez was most certainly formidable and carried one of the biggest punches in the sport, capable of swinging the direction of a fight's outcome as a result. In a KO Magazine poll in January 1980 a month prior to his bout with Sanchez, he was considered to be the #4 pound-for-pound fighter in boxing. In a rematch four months later, Sal defeated him in similar fashion in another late TKO win.

It could be said Azumah Nelson (13-0) was too green (coming in as a substitute on short notice) to be considered a great win, but for me the proof is in the pudding (or fight) and being 'green' and closer to athletic prime usually trumps 'past it' or worse, 'shot' as far as I'm concerned. Nelson fought beyond his ring experience and with the unrelenting, possessive fervor that would come to shape part of his identity as an all-time fighter. He gained almost immediate acclaim following the fight, would take titles at both 126 and 130, and was not soundly defeated for the better part of the following eight years until moving to up to 135 in a bid to challenge a peak Pernell Whitaker for his lightweight titles.

(As a rule of thumb, if it is Salvador Sanchez or Pernell Whitaker we are talking about, Nelson did not lose to Mario Martinez. If it's Julio Cesar Chavez, then he did in fact lose to Mario Martinez).

Juan LaPorte (15-1) is probably known as much for his unbelievable chin as any achievements made in the ring, but was nevertheless a durable boxer-puncher, one of the top contenders of the era and a future champion from the point Sanchez beat him. Ruben Castillo (47-1) was another top-level contender, class technician and out-fighter who's only loss up to that point was at the hands of Alexis Arguello in a bout at 130 lbs. Rounding out the list of rated contenders squeezed into the tight window are Pat Cowdell (19-2) and the immensely awkward Patrick Ford (16-0) who's style and dimensions gave Sal fits in the early going before ultimately prevailing. Roberto Castanon's (43-1) only prior defeat came at the hands of Lopez, whom Sanchez stopped twice.

He has the accomplishments of a man who knew his time was going to expire shortly and made the most of it when in reality he obviously had no idea he'd be cut so bitterly short. It has been said he was looking to be out of sport by the time he was 25, over which time he'd of likely settled the unification matter with another all-time great FW in Eusebio Pedroza and completed his legacy, amongst other potential superfights that could've potentially been brought to the table.

As it is, Sanchez is deserving of his ATG status not for what he could've been and accomplished, but for what he was and did.

_______

That's what I said 3 1/2 years ago anyway. Blinded by the Mexi-Afro Glow. @PityTheFool hates him and took "Fighter of the Year" way too serious and anal. Zopilote would probably remember those days. The man fucking told me to my face it was close between him and Saldivar. He's ripping my heart out in here, all because Jincock called Winstone a Top 10 ATG in terms of skill.



Vysotsky said:


> There's people like that in the ESB/CHB Multiverse.














Lester1583 said:


> We gotta install microwave ovens
> Custom kitchen deliveries
> We gotta move these refrigerators
> We gotta move these colour TV's
> ...


I hate that fucking song down to my gut flora. So shit.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

I did fuck all of the sort.Stop taking the piss out of my shit memory.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Looks better than Barrera does on film, and he never got knocked out by someone like Junior Jones.


Damn I even felt that.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> P4P ratings aren't based on common sense.
> 
> You're not convincing anybody.


Hands is too chicken to get a list going


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Roberto Duran
03. Sugar Ray Leonard
04. Pernell Whitaker
05. Roy Jones, Jr.
06. Floyd Mayweather jr
07. Manny Pacquiao
08. Carlos Monzon
09. Eder Jofre
10. Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
11. Marvin Hagler
12. Thomas Hearns
13. Emile Griffith
14. Jose Napoles
15. Alexis Arguello
16 .Michael Spinks
17. Bernard Hopkins
18. Carlos Ortiz
19. Ruben Olivares
20. Evander Holyfield
21. Fighting Harada
22. Salvador Sanchez
23. Wilfredo Gomez
24. Vicente Saldivar
25. Dick Tiger
26. Mike McCallum
27. LMR
28. Oscar Dela Hoya
29. Azumah Nelson
30. Larry Holmes
31. Juan Manuel Marquez
32. Erik Morales
33. Marco Antonio Barrera
34. Bob Foster
35. Wilfred Benitez
36 .James Toney
38. George Foreman
37. Lennox Lewis
39. Joe Calzaghe
40. Eusebio Pedroza
41, Antonio Cervantes
42. Mike Tyson
43. Shane Mosley
44. Felix Trinidad
45. Ricardo Lopez 
46. Jeff Fenech
47. Ernesto Marcel
48. Aaron Pryor
49. Carl Froch
50. Kostya Tszyu

Its odd....I actually think Froch has a better resume than Joe calzaghe.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

@turbotime how are you gonna put Froch over Tszyu and = Andre Ward?? Theres no way Froch is better p4p than Ward.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> @turbotime how are you gonna put Froch over Tszyu and = Andre Ward?? Theres no way Froch is better p4p than Ward.


Froch has a better resume, and didn't get KO'd by Vince Phillips.

Better resume than Ward too. I think Calderon is better P4P than Froch but you need the names. Ward openly turned down Bute, Froch stepped in and took care of Biz.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Froch has a better resume, and didn't get KO'd by Vince Phillips.
> 
> Better resume than Ward too. I think Calderon is better P4P than Froch but you need the names. Ward openly turned down Bute, Froch stepped in and took care of Biz.


Bruh. Froch doesn't have a better resume than Tszyu. Tszyu is one of the best 140 pounders of all time and was really good has a very good resume.

Froch lost to Kessler, arguably dirrell and ward. so hes not better than Ward. Ward beat Kessler and dominated Froch. Bute would have gotten owned by Ward. I don't care. Ward is better p4p and he has better wins. He holds a win over Froch. fuck you turbo.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: :yep
> 
> Gonna be lazy here:
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Sanchez was truly a phenomenon and bonified ATG. I've been appreciating Saldivar more and more as the years go by though, not too mention that he's disgustingly underrated by a lot of the Mexican peeps whom I discuss boxing with.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Bruh. Froch doesn't have a better resume than Tszyu. Tszyu is one of the best 140 pounders of all time and was really good has a very good resume.
> 
> Froch lost to Kessler, arguably dirrell and ward. so hes not better than Ward. Ward beat Kessler and dominated Froch. Bute would have gotten owned by Ward. I don't care. Ward is better p4p and he has better wins. He holds a win over Froch. fuck you turbo.


Then feel free to make a list with Ward on it, kiddo.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Hands is too chicken to get a list going


Don't be mad at me that Napoles is easily Top 10, both since SRR and All-Time in terms of "ability". He never really belonged at Welterweight and yet had one of the greatest reigns of all-time there, let down only by his skin. Took out champ Curtis Cokes twice (a Top 15 WW), Emile Griffith (Top 10) who was a bit boiled down but still, along with a multitude of Top 3 rated guys: Ernie Lopez x2, Hedgemon Lewis x2, Armando Muniz x2, Clyde Gray, Roger Menetrey. Before he even went to 147, be beat HOF Eddie Perkins (Top 10 JWW) and stopped future champ Carlos Hernandez along with a boatload of other guys in the ranks (Adolph Pruitt, Eugenio Espinoza, Johnny Santos, Giodarno Campari). Uncrowned 140 Champ. This trumps Monzon and Hagler for mine, and I think he was the most skilled of the three to boot from what we have.

J-Nap Tha God.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

What bugs me is Fenech over Tyson atsch


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Don't be mad at me that Napoles is easily Top 10, both since SRR and All-Time in terms of "ability". He never really belonged at Welterweight and yet had one of the greatest reigns of all-time there, let down only by his skin. Took out champ Curtis Cokes twice (a Top 15 WW), Emile Griffith (Top 10) who was a bit boiled down but still, along with a multitude of Top 3 rated guys: Ernie Lopez x2, Hedgemon Lewis x2, Armando Muniz x2, Clyde Gray, Roger Menetrey. Before he even went to 147, be beat HOF Eddie Perkins (Top 10 JWW) and stopped future champ Carlos Hernandez along with a boatload of other guys in the ranks (Adolph Pruitt, Eugenio Espinoza, Johnny Santos, Giodarno Campari). Uncrowned 140 Champ. This trumps Monzon and Hagler for mine, and I think he was the most skilled of the three to boot from what we have.
> 
> J-Nap Tha God.


Napoles doesn't have the resume m8

Even the guy in my avatar has a better resume. Thats what you little bitches like to say about Mahvin. He still has better names than Napoles and more depth.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Don't be mad at me that Napoles is easily Top 10, both since SRR and All-Time in terms of "ability". He never really belonged at Welterweight and yet had one of the greatest reigns of all-time there, let down only by his skin. Took out champ Curtis Cokes twice (a Top 15 WW), Emile Griffith (Top 10) who was a bit boiled down but still, along with a multitude of Top 3 rated guys: Ernie Lopez x2, Hedgemon Lewis x2, Armando Muniz x2, Clyde Gray, Roger Menetrey. Before he even went to 147, be beat HOF Eddie Perkins (Top 10 JWW) and stopped future champ Carlos Hernandez along with a boatload of other guys in the ranks (Adolph Pruitt, Eugenio Espinoza, Johnny Santos, Giodarno Campari). Uncrowned 140 Champ. This trumps Monzon and Hagler for mine, and I think he was the most skilled of the three to boot from what we have.
> 
> J-Nap Tha God.


Christ. Fucking Cube lover :-(

I actually rate Griffith over Naps, P4P. not sure cokes is top 15 welter, easy cowboy.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Napoles doesn't have the resume m8
> 
> Even the guy in my avatar has a better resume. Thats what you little bitches like to say about Mahvin. He still has better names than Napoles and more depth.


He doesn't have the resume this is true.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Napoles is more skilled than Floyd Mayweather. Cum @ Me Cunts.


They wouldn't dare.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> They wouldn't dare.


:rofl Mayweather would Marquez Napoles.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Moved tyson up a few spots. Had lopez ahead of him :rofl :rofl


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Christ. Fucking Cube lover :-(
> 
> I actually rate Griffith over Naps, P4P. not sure cokes is top 15 welter, easy cowboy.


Why?

I was gonna make it a point to take in all four of the LMR fights this weekend but popular opinion is that he lost every one of them, dude. Cokes handed LMR his first stoppage loss. Napoles destroyed Cokes. Napoles beat Griffith. Irrefutable.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

1. Ali 
2. Leonard 
3. Whitaker
4. Duran
5. Hagler
6. Jones
7. Spinks
8. Chavez
9. Monzon
10. Hearns
11. Griffith
12. Jofre
13. Mayweather
14. Holyfield
15. Sanchez
16. Hopkins 
17. Pacquiao
18. Harada 
19. Arguello
20. Napoles
21. Tiger
22. Olivares
23. Gomez
24. Holmes
25. McCallum


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why?
> 
> I was gonna make it a point to take in all four of the LMR fights this weekend but popular opinion is that he lost every one of them, dude. Cokes handed LMR his first stoppage loss. Napoles destroyed Cokes. Napoles beat Griffith. Irrefutable.


Mayorga destroyed Forrest who destroyed Mosley who flattened Mayorga. Shut up.

The man was Tiger's daddy. A man that your little manlet-quilla wouldn't even look in the eyes at a hall of fame conference.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> 1. Ali
> 2. Leonard
> 3. Whitaker
> 4. Duran
> ...


Not bad..... just never give me shit again.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Was II even filmed? :huh


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Not bad..... just never give me shit again.


go ahead pick apart my list


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Mayorga destroyed Forrest who destroyed Mosley who flattened Mayorga. Shut up.
> 
> The man was Tiger's daddy. A man that your little manlet-quilla wouldn't even look in the eyes at a hall of fame conference.


You guys are underrating him here IMO. Really.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Excellent post. Sanchez was truly a phenomenon and bonified ATG. I've been appreciating Saldivar more and more as the years go by though, not too mention that he's disgustingly underrated by a lot of the Mexican peeps whom I discuss boxing with.


You mean like Mexican posters on a boxing site that couldn't recognize him in your avatar? :rofl It's all good though. He got a lot better, for sure.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> 1. Ali
> 2. Leonard
> 3. Whitaker
> 4. Duran
> ...


Mayweather out of the top 10 for one. Like he's not one of the 10 best since Robinson.

INTERESTING - Is everyone sort of underrating Arguello? Like how can Monzon even be that far ahead of such a wrecking ball, who in a lot of ways resembled Monzon.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> miniscule amateur experience


What's even more impressive is that Sanchez wasn't even one of those natural prodigal talents.

He was an utterly mediocre, unsophisticated beatable pressure fighter early in his career.



Hands of Iron said:


> I don't believe his record is either.


Gave birth to Tito via whooping his weak father.



Hands of Iron said:


> He had four fights against three legit ATG/HOF guys and won all of them.


- Stop shitting all over El Boolsheeto!











Hands of Iron said:


> Wilfredo Gomez was considered one of the best fighters P4P in the sport


The best, you nascar-cheering hillbilly.



Hands of Iron said:


> It has been said he was looking to be out of sport by the time he was 25


Nobody wants to retire as a shot bum.

Yet almost all of them do.



Hands of Iron said:


> unification matter with another all-time great FW in Eusebio Pedroza


Humiliation matter with another all-time great LW Alexis Arguello.



Hands of Iron said:


> @PityTheFool hates him and took "Fighter of the Year" way too serious and anal.


Still can't over the fact that Hagler won fair and square.

Poor Gilby.



Hands of Iron said:


> Jincock called Winstone a Top 10 ATG in terms of skill.


He was joking.

Winstone is a solid top 5.



Hands of Iron said:


> I hate that fucking song down to my gut flora. So shit.


Indeed it is.

But not even half as shit as Pedders' avi.
Like a soundtrack to Amelie.
Vomit-inducing.



turbotime said:


> Hands is too chicken to get a list going


The boy only now realizied that Duran ain't shit compared to Napoles.

Give him a decade or two and he'll come up with a list and tons of useless statistics.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You guys are underrating him here IMO. Really.


Griffith yes.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather out of the top 10 for one. Like he's not one of the 10 best since Robinson.
> 
> INTERESTING - Is everyone sort of underrating Arguello? Like how can Monzon even be that far ahead of such a wrecking ball, who in a lot of ways resembled Monzon.


Well Monzon was way more dominant than Arguello and for me that is the big difference. Arguello had a bunch of wack losses to guys he shouldn't have lost to.

You know how I am about Mayweather :lol: He's grown on me a bit but all of his top wins barring Castillo and Corrales are over past prime opposition. I thought about ranking Arguello higher to be honest and I use to rank him higher but I thought to myself is he really better than Floyd? No is he better than Pac or Bhop? for me no


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Griffith yes.


You think he trumps Napoles on ability? :lol:

Wasn't it fucking years ago that we were legitimately debating who had better offense/defense integration and transition between Dooran and Napoles? That was dead until I brought the beast out in Lester last weekend by bringing it up. What tha fuk happened to you? Like you complete forgot about his career pre-welterweight too.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You mean like Mexican posters on a boxing site that couldn't recognize him in your avatar? :rofl It's all good though. He got a lot better, for sure.


:yep


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Well Monzon was way more dominant than Arguello and for me that is the big difference. Arguello had a bunch of wack losses to guys he shouldn't have lost to.
> 
> You know how I am about Mayweather :lol: He's grown on me a bit but all of his top wins barring Castillo and Corrales* are over past prime opposition*. I thought about ranking Arguello higher to be honest and I use to rank him higher but I thought to myself is he really better than Floyd? No is he better than Pac or Bhop? for me no


Sounds like your boy.

:money


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Sounds like your boy.
> 
> :money


yeh hearns, mugabi, hamsho, obelijamas, n hamsho are past prime


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You think he trumps Napoles on ability? :lol:
> 
> Wasn't it fucking years ago that we were legitimately debating who had better offense/defense integration and transition between Dooran and Napoles? That was dead until I brought the beast out in Lester last weekend by bringing it up. What tha fuk happened to you? Like you complete forgot about his career pre-welterweight too.


Duran did it against better opposition though, irrefutable. For all of this Cokes nuthuggery you have going on all a sudden, was he even that much bigger than Naps? If at all. Mayweather would spank that glass cuban azz.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> yeh hearns, mugabi, hamsho, obelijamas, n hamsho are past prime


Cousins?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Duran did it against better opposition though, irrefutable. For all of this Cokes nuthuggery you have going on all a sudden, was he even that much bigger than Naps? If at all. Mayweather would spank that glass cuban azz.


I'm bored rolling with the same angles for my same fave fighters. :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm bored rolling with the same angles for my same fave fighters. :lol:


yeah you need to start watching new stuff. Stop with this hippie bullshit, you and @Flea Man


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> yeah you need to start watching new stuff. Stop with this hippie bullshit, you and @Flea Man


Griffith does very little for me if I'm honest. There's a good reason I've watched so little of him. Just not my type. Never took your for such an LGBT activist.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nap's got skills.
> Floyd pays billz.


Bring da muthufuckin' ruckus.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Griffith does very little for me if I'm honest. There's a good reason I've watched so little of him. Just not my type. Never took your for such an LGBT activist.


I'm in theatre. I swear the only reason i do standup is so I'm allowed to say *** and make fun of trannies.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Bring da muthufuckin' ruckus.


:ibutt








Zopilote said:


> Jose Luis Ramirez schooled Arguello out of his shoes. :rofl


:deal


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Bring da muthufuckin' ruckus.


No. no.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> LGBT activist.


Do you know how Griffith managed to finally beat JJ Fernandez legitimately?

By KO'ing him to the balls.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> theatre standup **** trannies.


Bama sees right through you.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Griffith does very little for me if I'm honest. There's a good reason I've watched so little of him. Just not my type. Never took your for such an LGBT activist.


Then don't speak on what you don't know numbnuts. Do you see me debating with Flea about Koo sun jin? No!


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Bama sees right through you.


I didn't ask to be pretty.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Then don't speak on what you don't know numbnuts.


:rofl Deliciously rich. It's good that we bros and I <3 you. The cases for the particular guys being rated over J-Nap (and Spinks) here have been pathetic and almost non-existent. The posts and points gone unaddressed, and not just mine.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Griffith does very little for me if I'm honest.


Griffith is the ultimate _non-specia_l fighter.

Does everything very good, nothing great.

Add in amazing list of _(robberies)_ opponents, longevity and discipiline and you've got yourself a paradoxical non-ATG ATG.

And yes, his style wasn't always pretty, especially if it was a rough fight.
And he liked it rough.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> He beat Leonard? Officially he lost and regardless how you scored it (i edge it towards Marvin) it was a close fight that can't be considered a robbery so the official result can't just be thrown out. Spinks was just as dominant during his reign, fought in a better era and while Duran and Hearns rate higher in an ATG sense i would make the case that Mustafa was a more formidable LHW than Duran a MW. Same for Qawi over Hearns as a MW whose best win at the weight is Roldan along with the Barkley KO loss.


Zinger.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl Deliciously rich. It's good that we bros and I <3 you. The cases for the particular guys being rated over J-Nap (and Spinks) here have been pathetic and almost non-existent. The posts and points gone unaddressed, and not just mine.


WE bros? What? Who the fuck is we. You better have a mouse in your pocket typing that boooolshit


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> 39. Joe Calzaghe
> 42. Mike Tyson


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> WE bros? What? Who the fuck is we. You better have a mouse in your pocket typing that boooolshit


:-(



turbotime said:


> We be like


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


>


#NoBlueprint


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


>


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> - Stay salty, Marvin!





turbotime said:


> Got booed out of standup


So elusive, he dodged everybody's lists:


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Yo I'm tired of hearing about Calzaghe, honestly. Fucking footnote in boxing history.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yo I'm tired of hearing about Calzaghe, honestly. Fucking footnote in boxing history.


He woulda spanked Margarito P4P


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> He woulda spanked Margarito P4P


I can agree with that.


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Bogotazo said:


> Yo I'm tired of hearing about Calzaghe, honestly. Fucking footnote in boxing history.


SIR Joe Calzaghe, whatever the man is he is still a knight

46-0 TBE


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Excellent post. Sanchez was truly a phenomenon and bonified ATG. I've been appreciating Saldivar more and more as the years go by though, not too mention that he's disgustingly underrated by a lot of the Mexican peeps whom I discuss boxing with.


It was actually that elchivito guy from ESB who asked for it and wanted me to do a brief career overview sort of thing on Sal after convos in other threads. Used to have videos, photos and stuff included. That kid's career and opposition for what was available to him was fucking flawless. Outstanding Champion in every sense, Pedroza was imminent.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Pedroza's ass is glass.


Z-Machine was like "Who dat bitch":


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> He beat Leonard? Officially he lost and regardless how you scored it (i edge it towards Marvin) it was a close fight that can't be considered a robbery so the official result can't just be thrown out. Spinks was just as dominant during his reign, fought in a better era and while Duran and Hearns rate higher in an ATG sense i would make the case that Mustafa was a more formidable LHW than Duran a MW. Same for Qawi over Hearns as a MW whose best win at the weight is Roldan along with the Barkley KO loss.


It was a close fight that I felt Hagler won.

I don't really think Spinks fought in a better era necessarily. Hagler didn't have the best names during his era, but i don't think you can really make a case that faded versions of Lopez, Mustafa and Johnson are better than Hearns, Leonard, Mugabi and Hamsho. you can pick apart Spinks' resume the way you just picked apart Hagler's.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Z-Machine was like "Who dat bitch":


Take that @Drew101


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I can agree with that.


Whats your beef with Super Joe? He was a damned good boxer.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Z-Machine was like "Who dat bitch":


Man that KO makes me lol for some reason. Just vicious like it was nothing


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> It was a close fight that I felt Hagler won.
> 
> I don't really think Spinks fought in a better era necessarily. Hagler didn't have the best names during his era, but i don't think you can really make a case that faded versions of Lopez, Mustafa and Johnson are better than Hearns, Leonard, Mugabi and Hamsho. you can pick apart Spinks' resume the way you just picked apart Hagler's.


Tommy are you bending rules here for your fave fighter? Some people think Duran beat Hagler FFS, that doesn't look good on a resume. cakeeater beating mr. jail-workouts Hagler.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Tommy are you bending rules here for your fave fighter? Some people think Duran beat Hagler FFS, that doesn't look good on a resume. cakeeater beating mr. jail-workouts Hagler.


Duran didnt win, fuck off


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Duran didnt win, fuck off


I didn't say he did nor would I. But if we're going on straight robberies like you're trying out, Oscar would be way the fuck up there too .

Clearly beat Trinidad and Mosley, (roided at that)

Hagler lost a close fight vs Leonard. An OLD AS FUCK, ONE EYE Leonard. I know, it hurts. Deal with it.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I didn't think Hagler vs Duran was really that controversial. Hagler clearly won.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I didn't say he did nor would I. But if we're going on straight robberies like you're trying out, Oscar would be way the fuck up there too .
> 
> Clearly beat Trinidad and Mosley, (roided at that)
> 
> Hagler lost a close fight vs Leonard. An OLD AS FUCK, ONE EYE Leonard. I know, it hurts. Deal with it.


You can't just count close fights for your fave fighter,. I'll be the first to admit Oscar should've lost to Sturm, even though he did better than he should've, given his fucking man boobs at the weigh in.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I didn't say he did nor would I. But if we're going on straight robberies like you're trying out, Oscar would be way the fuck up there too .
> 
> Clearly beat Trinidad and Mosley, (roided at that)
> 
> Hagler lost a close fight vs Leonard. An OLD AS FUCK, ONE EYE Leonard. I know, it hurts. Deal with it.


Did he really beat Mosley though? And he gave the Trinidad shit away when he started running in the last 3 rounds. he deserved getting robbed like that. Also he lost to Ike, lost to sturm and lost to whitaker. so fuck DLH.

Hagler won. IDC


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I didn't think Hagler vs Duran was really that controversial. Hagler clearly won.


Nowhere near Leonard-Hagler territory. Hagler was never in danger of losing the fight.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Did he really beat Mosley though? And he gave the Trinidad shit away when he started running in the last 3 rounds. he deserved getting robbed like that. Also he lost to Ike, lost to sturm and lost to whitaker. so fuck DLH.
> 
> Hagler won. IDC


At least Oscar moved up in weight fighting the best. Fucking Hagler calling up 140 lb'ers :lol:

Also Whitaker's patty cake jabs don't matter when you're gettnig pasted until you can't see anymore. Why do you think he was clowning so much? He didn't like that power. You see it a lot in slick boxers, once they taste that heat they revert into clowning and mind games trying to win the crowd over. Whitaker "performed" well, but he didn't win an actual fight.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Oscar clearly won the second Mosley fight @tommygunn711 even Merchant his biggest hater admitted it.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Oscar clearly won the second Mosley fight @tommygunn711 even Merchant his biggest hater admitted it.


DLH lost to sturm :lol:


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> At least Oscar moved up in weight fighting the best. Fucking Hagler calling up 140 lb'ers :lol:
> 
> Also Whitaker's patty cake jabs don't matter when you're gettnig pasted until you can't see anymore. Why do you think he was clowning so much? He didn't like that power. You see it a lot in slick boxers, once they taste that heat they revert into clowning and mind games trying to win the crowd over. Whitaker "performed" well, but he didn't win an actual fight.


Yeah I scored that fight twice. First time for Oscar, the second time a draw. It's hard to score.

Quartey beat Oscar though :deal


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Moving up in weight is a bonus not a requirement.. Yeah good for DLH for getting knocked out by Bhop with a body shot at a catchweight. What greatness!


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> DLH lost to sturm :lol:


Yet you would be listing it as one of the best middleweights on Hagler's resume :lol:


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Yet you would be listing it as one of the best middleweights on Hagler's resume :lol:


yeh sturm is a special fighter


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Yeah I scored that fight twice. First time for Oscar, the second time a draw. It's hard to score.
> 
> Quartey beat Oscar though :deal


I find quartey oscar harder to score than whitaker oscar. I remember the commentary to the fight even, I was just so fascinated with their jabs. I'm a jab fiend.

Quartey 
dlh 
quartey
dlh
dlh
quartey
quartey
EVEN
quartey
dlh
dlh
dlh 10-8 round


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Moving up in weight is a bonus not a requirement.. Yeah good for DLH for getting knocked out by Bhop with a body shot at a catchweight. What greatness!


He was ahead on some cards even. Oskee is the king. Stop hatin'


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> DLH lost to sturm :lol:


Did he beat Mosley and Trinidad handily?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> yeh sturm is a special fighter


Yeah milk the hamsho win though :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Not to mention Oscar is more talented than Hagler. His Gold Medal says hi.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

:lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> :lol:


Hell Hamsho would get owned P4P by Oba Carr.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)




----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

love u turbo


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> love u turbo


love you tg. 

side note- i just bought this wine from chile, holy smokessss it's aces, it's spiked water.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> love you tg.
> 
> side note- i just bought this wine from chile, holy smokessss it's aces, it's spiked water.


Fucking Old Ppl and Their wine

Give me a doobie instead of that crap any day :rasta


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Fucking Old Ppl and Their wine
> Give me a doobie instead of that crap any day :rasta


Adorable.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Love you, Hands of Iron.

I know you do.

*Muah*


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

You know, 10 years ago I think Aaron Pryor and Khaosai Galaxy would've been high on these lists. I wonder if their absence is because their star is gone or because we can see them beyond a few highlights.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> You know, 10 years ago I think Aaron Pryor and Khaosai Galaxy would've been high on these lists. I wonder if their absence is because their star is gone or because we can see them beyond a few highlights.


Little Red got a mention. Sort of.

This thread turned to shit once I stopped posting and people started talking about Calzaghe, Oscar and Hagler. Hard to separate them innit.

Ain't nothin changed since you been gone, it's still GOAT or GTFO.






Boston is the shit.

* Greatest Pitcher
* Greatest Hitter
* Greatest Quarterback
* Greatest Basketball Player
* Greatest Hockey Player
* Top 100 ATG Boxer (Hard to argue 49-0)


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Whats your beef with Super Joe? He was a damned good boxer.


I just don't care about him. He's always talked about like some stand-out ATG when his resume is Tim Bradley level. A toss up against old B-Hop, Eubank, Bika, Lacy, Kessler, and a bunch of British stoppages. Ward and Froch have arguably surpassed him at SMW and you don't see them getting thrown on lists like this. Divisional great? Sure. Pound for pound? No. High stamina slaps don't compensate for a lacking win column.

But take comfort in the fact that Oscar beat Trinidad, Mosley, Sturm, and Quartey on my cards.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I just don't care about him. He's always talked about like some stand-out ATG when his resume is Tim Bradley level. A toss up against old B-Hop, Eubank, Bika, Lacy, Kessler, and a bunch of British stoppages. Ward and Froch have arguably surpassed him at SMW and you don't see them getting thrown on lists like this. Divisional great? Sure. Pound for pound? No. High stamina slaps don't compensate for a lacking win column.
> 
> But take comfort in the fact that Oscar beat Trinidad, Mosley, Sturm, and Quartey on my cards.


JMM is Top 25 since Sugar Ray Robinson.

True or False?

:yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I just don't care about him. He's always talked about like some stand-out ATG when his resume is Tim Bradley level. A toss up against old B-Hop, Eubank, Bika, Lacy, Kessler, and a bunch of British stoppages. Ward and Froch have arguably surpassed him at SMW and you don't see them getting thrown on lists like this. Divisional great? Sure. Pound for pound? No. High stamina slaps don't compensate for a lacking win column.
> 
> But take comfort in the fact that Oscar beat Trinidad, Mosley, Sturm, and Quartey on my cards.


JMM is Top 25 since Sugar Ray Robinson.

True or False?

:yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

So important it needed to be asked twice apparently.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I just don't care about him. He's always talked about like some stand-out ATG when his resume is Tim Bradley level. A toss up against old B-Hop, Eubank, Bika, Lacy, Kessler, and a bunch of British stoppages. Ward and Froch have arguably surpassed him at SMW and you don't see them getting thrown on lists like this. Divisional great? Sure. Pound for pound? No. High stamina slaps don't compensate for a lacking win column.
> 
> But take comfort in the fact that Oscar beat Trinidad, Mosley, Sturm, and Quartey on my cards.


Froch is greater than Joe IMO. I should adjust that. I made this list at like 4am mind.


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Little Red got a mention. Sort of.
> 
> This thread turned to shit once I stopped posting and people started talking about Calzaghe, Oscar and Hagler. Hard to separate them innit.
> 
> ...


Pitcher- Roger Clemens
Hitter - Babe Ruth
Quarterback- Jim Plunkett (odd choice; I assume you mean college)
Basketball - Bill Russell
Hockey Bobby Orr

Did I get those right?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> JMM is Top 25 since Sugar Ray Robinson.
> 
> True or False?
> 
> :yep


True.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> Pitcher- Roger Clemens
> Hitter - Babe Ruth
> Quarterback- Jim Plunkett (odd choice; I assume you mean college)
> Basketball - Bill Russell
> ...


Paltry 1 out of 5. And I don't even watch hockey. :twisted


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Paltry 1 out of 5. And I don't even watch hockey. :twisted


Was it Russell?. How do you feel about the Warriors and curry? Strong emotions?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> Was it Russell?. How do you feel about the Warriors and curry? Strong emotions?


Honestly LR, I've watched so little ball over the last few years that I wouldn't even be able to properly gauge and put it into context. I feel like I've missed the boat big time now. Most of my NBA output these days consists of 'pompous, self-congratulatory essays' (No! Facts!) on why Kobe Bryant is definitively NOT A Top 10 ATG or Bird Tha God type incinerations. I think you're plenty qualified to weigh in there. That passing demonstration vid is absolutely off the hinges fucking filthy. Bird was better at Basketball than any Boxer ever was at Boxing. Made a Film Noir thread too a couple months back, not sure if you're into that at all.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


>


Muthafukka.

Pity with the swift hijack attempt.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> JMM is Top 100 since Pajarito Moreno?


A resounding no.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Calzaghe would beat froch though

Probably embarrass him.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Khan-Canelo is like a modern day Leonard-Hagler.

Whoever wins, either Khan ends greater than Leonard, or Canelo above Hagler.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Khan-Canelo is like a modern day Leonard-Hagler.
> 
> Whoever wins, either Khan ends greater than Leonard, or Canelo above Hagler.


:rofl


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Calzaghe would beat froch though
> 
> Probably embarrass him.


Eubank too.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :rofl


:lol:

About time he made his presence felt. Dyna had been coming up a little flat thus far. He sets a high standard for himself.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> About time he made his presence felt. Dyna had been coming up a little flat thus far. He sets a high standard for himself.


I'm kind of ashamed because I think it's only recently I've come to realize he was trolling all these years.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm kind of ashamed because I think it's only recently I've come to realize he was trolling all these years.


Nah he's like Lester but with even fewer serious posts. They'll hit you with some real shit from time to time that makes you wonder how deep it goes. Tread carefully.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Dyna had been coming up a little flat thus far.


Henry Maske's career needs a proper revaluation.

Can't spread yourself too thin.

It's a serious matter.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> I didn't think Hagler vs Duran was really that controversial. Hagler clearly won.


If Dooran is even remotely competitive then someone, somewhere, is going to claim he won.


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Honestly LR, I've watched so little ball over the last few years that I wouldn't even be able to properly gauge and put it into context. I feel like I've missed the boat big time now. Most of my NBA output these days consists of 'pompous, self-congratulatory essays' (No! Facts!) on why Kobe Bryant is definitively NOT A Top 10 ATG or Bird Tha God type incinerations. I think you're plenty qualified to weigh in there. That passing demonstration vid is absolutely off the hinges fucking filthy. Bird was better at Basketball than any Boxer ever was at Boxing. Made a Film Noir thread too a couple months back, not sure if you're into that at all.


Honestly I'm not sure bird is even the best Celtic. Bird is a top 3 or so offensive player but russell is the no doubt atg defensive player. One of the best athletes to play in the nba; you hear all these crazy numbers from Wilt but when you actually look for them you find that it's mostly just repeated apocryphal stuff. Russell on the other hand, was a top 10 high jumper in the world in college. Had he concentrated in that he could have been an olympian (Wilt wasn't particularly close to be an all american at any other sport let alone world class). Russell changed the game; he was a superb passer. I think we can all agree that in isolation Wilt was the better player but the game isn't played in isolation you have to play as part of a team and Wilt often didn't (sometimes admittedly because the owner and coach new that it payed better to have a freak than a winner).

But I haven't answered the assertion that there is no boxer better at his sport than Bird. I don't think that's true and I love Bird. But he is 2% better than Oscar Robertson because he could command a team. As good as basketball as Bird was Ray Robinson was better. He's an equivalent offensive force; over 100 knockouts, the nba equivalent of 30k points, and he beat champions over 3 division and was a round away from a fourth (the only other guys who did better were Armstrong, Langford, and arguably Leonard). So his resume is better for his sport (the only guy who beat more ranked contenders is Archie Moore; at one point Ray Robinson was 36-3-1 against top 10 fighters and there were half as many divisions back then; is hard to compare rings to title fights but if we do a championship year as comparable Robinson has, what 9 or 10 rings). And skill wise as awesome as Bird looks, Ray was probably better. Could do it all to the same extent as Bird could. And he was better on the other side; bird solid defense but Ray was stopped once, via exhaustion not punches. Ray wasn't a defensive marvel but he had fine head movement, good glovework, a very good chin, top tier recovery, brilliant generalship and control of distances, and atg defensive footwork. So I think SRR is better but he fact that we had to start at the very top says a bunch about just how good bird is.

And I love a little noir.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> Was it Russell?. How do you feel about the Warriors and curry? Strong emotions?


Gretzky.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> Honestly I'm not sure bird is even the best Celtic


You've just put HoI into catatonia.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> You've just put HoI into catatonia.


The seriousness with which he approached it and broke it down is more brilliant than you'll ever know. :lol: Particularly the cross-sport comparison which wasn't a real assertion and practically impossible to do realistically.

In reality, it's difficult to place Bird within the Top 5 ATG in a pure overall achievement sense. Jordan, Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar -- and Magic hold some massive sway. Unfortunately, Larry only got 9 years to build his legacy before injuries ruined him coming off what was the best season (statistically) of his career. I do think he was the most skilled player of all-time and ironically, it partially has to do with Red's case for Russell in regards to athleticism. Relative to the other Top 10 caliber players, Bird was tiers below there. He compensated for it with pure IQ and skill, he played during the same era and against a handful of these very Top 10 contemporaries so we don't have to wonder how it would've melded into other eras and what not.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> He compensated for it with pure IQ and skill


He sounds so Howard Winstone.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> The seriousness with which he approached it


Do you know why it's obvious LR is American?



LittleRed said:


> the only guy who beat more ranked contenders is Archie Moore; at one point Ray Robinson was 36-3-1 against top 10 fighters


Americans and their love for statistics.

Baberuthing every sport.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> He sounds so Howard Winstone.


As much to do with race as my love for Pernell Whitaker, Barry Sanders or Pedro Martinez. :lol:

I mean, it is a perk I won't lie. It's humourous. People with less enthusiam than me about Larry Legend get upset when I say you could have him outside of the Top 5. He fits in a 6-8 spot if you rate on the most traditional of methods that take achievements into account. The thing is, those achievements were incredibly difficult to come by in the era he played. It was a WAR just to get to the dance, nevermind win it.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> As much to do with race as my love for Pernell Whitaker, Barry Sanders or Pedro Martinez.


That you were able to break away from your past is admirable, Dorian.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> That you were able to break away from your past is admirable, Dorian.


Black posters @PityTheFool @MichiganWarrior and @Sweethome_Bama all rate Bird Top 5.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Do you know why it's obvious LR is American?
> 
> Americans and their love for statistics.
> 
> Baberuthing every sport.


The fact that LittleRed is a DOG makes his output all the more impressive.



LittleRed said:


>


Lookin good, bro.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Do you know why it's obvious LR is American?
> 
> Americans and their love for statistics.
> 
> Baberuthing every sport.


Says the people who invented batting average...



Hands of Iron said:


> The fact that LittleRed is a DOG makes his output all the more impressive.
> 
> Lookin good, bro.


We prefer the term canine american.

And thank you, that was my winter coat.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

coAWRDS


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## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Kovalev vs Ward
Crawford vs Postol
Wilder vs Povetkin
Usyk vs Glowacki
Lebedev vs Ramirez

What else? For me this is shaping up to be the best year in boxing for quite a while.


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Vysotsky said:


> Kovalev vs Ward
> Crawford vs Postol
> Wilder vs Povetkin
> Usyk vs Glowacki
> ...


Klitschko - Fury II

Possibility of Canelo - GGG

really good year imo. Not many 'stars' but a lot of competitive match-ups.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> Kovalev vs Ward
> Crawford vs Postol
> Wilder vs Povetkin
> Usyk vs Glowacki
> ...


Vargas-Salido


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> Kovalev vs Ward
> Crawford vs Postol
> Wilder vs Povetkin
> Usyk vs Glowacki
> ...


You left out Canelo-Matthyse for September.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> Kovalev vs Ward
> Crawford vs Postol
> Wilder vs Povetkin
> Usyk vs Glowacki
> ...


Naw last year had Mayweather vs Pacquiao and Canelo vs Cotto.


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## Commando (Jul 29, 2012)

Hagler should never be ranked ahead of Jones on a p4p list.

Mayweather should be a lot higher. I think Jones deserves to be ranked above Whitaker.


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## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> Klitschko - Fury II
> 
> Possibility of Canelo - GGG
> 
> really good year imo. *Not many 'stars' but a lot of competitive match-ups*.


For years now the vast majority of 'stars' involved in 'super fights' is manufactured bullshit far cries from Duran/Leonard, Whitaker/Chavez, Jones/Toney. Case and point......



bballchump11 said:


> Naw last year had Mayweather vs Pacquiao and Canelo vs Cotto.


.....and who gives a shit? I didn't care about either of those fights from the moment they were announced and surprise surprise it was an astute sentiment. Kovalev vs Ward is the real Pac/May and Crawford/Postol holds way more significance than the diva catfight.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> .....and who gives a shit? I didn't care about either of those fights from the moment they were announced and surprise surprise it was an astute sentiment. Kovalev vs Ward is the real Pac/May and Crawford/Postol holds way more significance than the diva catfight.


yeah ok, you didn't care about the 2 consensus biggest fights in boxing at the time, cool story dude :thumbsup

and Kovalev and Ward will never be as good as Mayweather and Pacquiao. The fight itself will probably be better, but those fighters aren't.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> For years now the vast majority of 'stars' involved in 'super fights' is manufactured bullshit far cries from Duran/Leonard, Whitaker/Chavez, Jones/Toney. Case and point......
> 
> .....and who gives a shit? I didn't care about either of those fights from the moment they were announced and surprise surprise it was an astute sentiment. Kovalev vs Ward is the real Pac/May and Crawford/Postol holds way more significance than the diva catfight.


4 of the best fighters fighting are hardly catfights.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Bigger events yeah. Better fights no. May PAC happened way too late. And cotto was old as fuck. I mean he got beat by trout beat a nobody delvin Rodriguez lol. And shot sergio. Kovalev ward is way more important


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Vysotsky got yall shook.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Bigger events yeah. Better fights no. May PAC happened way too late. And cotto was old as fuck. I mean he got beat by trout beat a nobody delvin Rodriguez lol. And shot sergio. Kovalev ward is way more important


If Pac won that fight hed probably be shot up to top 20 fighters ever.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm fat


- Yes, you are.
- And DKSAB!
- They all are.
- Word!
- Shut the fuck up.
- 3-1!
- ***.
- I'll paret your ugly ass!
- Suck my fidel!









- Die, bitch!!!
- Havana powah!!!


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## nuclear (Jun 15, 2015)

Kovalev-Ward > May-Pac in their late 30s

Postol-Crawford > lineal 155 lb champion

If Estrada-Gonzalez were to happen...> everything


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Eddie Perkins (Top 10 JWW)


Got embarrassed by El Intocable.

No shame in that - happened to Ortiz, Cervantez, Laguna and Monzon.

With regard to our earlier conversation about Napoles crushing Duran at lightweight,

Nicolino looked so much faster, trimmer and mobile against Ortiz, 
it's pretty safe to say that he's among the greatest lightweights ever,
considering he fought at the weight for 7 years and was shot versus Fuji.

Just trying to remain objective.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

This was a great read.


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