# Which famous fighters maintained lifelong good health, and which didn't?



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I've been taking an interest lately in the genetic components of head trauma in combat sports. A common topic is how certain fighters age with no issue, while others deteriorate and age prematurely. A lot of this has to do with certain inherited alleles that compound the risk for neuro-degenerative diseases. There's also the type of trauma suffered as well.

So if we were to categorize famous world champions into 2 or 3 categories-those who lived to old age virtually unchanged, maybe a middle category for those in between, and those who were transformed into basically disabled people, what do you think the breakdown looks like?

Let's take famous fighters who have lived to old age or passed away.

Those who are just fine:

The Fab 4 are averaging about 60. None of them seem to have any symptoms of brain damage. Hearns _kind of_ slurs but he sounds like I'd expect a 60 year old dude to sound.

Joe Frazier slurred his words a bit but from what I know his health was fine before he died at 67. Although that is kind of early.

JCC is 53 and doesn't show any signs of damage at all.

Hopkins is a freak obviously at 50 still fighting and still sharp of mind.

George Chavulo is 78 and seems totally normal.

George Foreman is 73 and also seems totally normal.

Those who have deteriorated:

Roger Mayweather now gets lost, forgets things, and has mood swings. He seems to still be able to hold a conversation. He's 54.

Meldrick Taylor slurs his words really bad and shows signs of pugilistic dementia. He's 49.

Ali famously developed Parkinson's, as did Freddie Roach.

In Between:

James Toney seems okay in the head but he slurs his words noticeably. He's 47.

Antonio Cervantes (Kid Pambele) used to be institutionalized and had drug problems but he seems fairly lucid and speaks well now.

Joe Louis also had complications later in his life but they were largely due to cocaine use. Strokes, aneurysm, etc.

Post more!


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I've been taking an interest lately in the genetic components of head trauma in combat sports. A common topic is how certain fighters age with no issue, while others deteriorate and age prematurely. A lot of this has to do with certain inherited alleles that compound the risk for neuro-degenerative diseases. There's also the type of trauma suffered as well.
> 
> So if we were to categorize famous world champions into 2 or 3 categories-those who lived to old age virtually unchanged, maybe a middle category for those in between, and those who were transformed into basically disabled people, what do you think the breakdown looks like?
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## Trail (May 24, 2013)

Joe Frazier

Marvin Hagler

Floyd Mayweather

Frank Bruno (despite mental health issues)

Bernard Hopkins

Julio Cesar Chavez Snr.

Ali was shot come Berbick and Holmes.

Shane Mosley is trundling on to a good old age.

Archie Moore was good until his late career.

Evander Holyfield

Roberto Duran


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Carlos Monzon....maybe too healthy...maybe with an infirmity, he wouldn't have been such a pathological predator.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Jack Sharkey was the first nonagenarian former HW Champion. Through retirement, he was an avid outdoors-man and master fly fisherman who held public competitions with buddy Ted Williams. To support his sportsman lifestyle, he jogged three miles daily, long before Ken Cooper adopted the same regimen for himself and coined the term, "Aerobics." Sharkey wasn't concerned with his weight or physical appearance, just maintaining his body's ability to continue his active backwoods hiking to prime fishing spots. That payoff is most evident in his masterful refereeing of Moore-Durelle I & II, where he never stops moving around the ring, reacts quickly and correctly when knockdowns occur and the crowd gets hysterical, and steps in immediately when the bell sounds to halt action when the participants continue punching. Put Sharkey in place of JJW for Ali-Liston II, he would have remained in charge and never lost control. Moore-Durelle I & II are his only bouts as a referee listed on boxWRECK, but it's obvious he was far, far, far more experienced a third man than that. His constant movement and fluidity is a stunning contrast to how frozen Joe Louis was for Frazier-JQ II.

Corbett sparred with Tunney on film at age 60, and as a professional actor seems to have maintained good fitness until cancer nailed him at 67. Jeffries got quite heavy, but did hang on until 77. We don't know how much longer Jack Johnson would have lived out a natural life span when he was killed, but his condition at age 67 for his War Bond exhibition with Joe Jeannette seems quite reasonable. Jess Willard set the longevity record for former HW Champions which Dempsey broke, and in a photograph taken of him standing and smiling the year he died shows Big Jess looking good at 86. He does not appear to have been in precipitous deterioration prior to the heart attack and cerebral hemorrhage which took him at the end of the year, just two weeks short of 87. 

Dempsey needed a pacemaker and other medical attention in his last years, but died with all his marbles, having participated in few protracted wars. In 1977 he published a very good autobiography with his daughter which he originally intended to be posthumous. He lived a retirement of moderation in his personal habits, and got substantial media attention for his longevity. Some basic good advice was not to eat like a pig or drink like a fish.

Tunney did let himself go, freely indulging in drink, and did well to reach 81, but Dempsey preceded him by about two years in birth and also overlapped him by nearly five years in death.

Everybody knows Max Schmeling wanted to be the first centenarian former champion, and didn't quite make it, but remained trim as a beekeeper, always enjoyed discussing boxing, and lived long enough to befriend the Klitschkos.

What both Chuvalo and Jake LaMotta have emphasized is ridiculously important for self-preservation and longevity of brain function. Just because a punch looks like a scoring blow doesn't mean it's a damaging shot, if you see it coming and move that fraction of an inch to diffuse the impact. That they practiced and mastered legitimate self-defense is self evident in their current condition. (At 94, Jake gets a free pass anyway.) 

From a volitional fitness perspective, Jack Sharkey would be my first choice. He practiced a targeted and sustainable regimen of moderate exercise, not to look good or live longer, but merely to enable his body to continue allowing him to do the things he enjoyed in life, and that happened to be a healthy year round outdoor existence of fly fishing, ice fishing and other recreational activities in fresh rural air.

Patterson maintained excellent fitness through his retirement, but there's no correlation between health and fitness. He still got nailed by prostate cancer and Alzheimer's at 71. Ingo ran marathons from some time after his retirement until the mid 1980's, but that was not Sharkey's sustainable level of moderation, and like Floyd, he had an awfully short career to have contracted Alzheimer's from.


Joe Frazier died of rapidly metastasizing liver cancer at age 67. I think he's actually a success story in terms of lifespan in boxing annals. He did not win any kind of genetic lottery when he was born. He first took up boxing to lose weight because his legs were getting too big to fit into his pants. He outlived amateur nemesis and professional opponent Buster Mathis by over 16 years, and may not have even reached his 40's if he'd never been an athlete. He had kidney problems, high blood pressure, arthritis and diabetes. Like Marciano overcoming a bad back, Smoke's arduous training regimen against the ravages of early onset arthritis alone shows his heart. Where Sharkey spent his retirement hiking around to choice fishing locations, the mechanically inclined Frazier was always crawling underneath cars in junkyards to check them out. 

Health wise, a good natured temperament doesn't seem to hurt. There are exceptions like Max Baer (who I suspect was born with an as yet undiagnosable heart defect) and the acromegaly afflicted Carnera who did not live long, and mean nasty characters like Jake (who Heaven doesn't want, and Satan fears), but for brain preservation, an effective defense rather than a flamboyant one is crucial. Vito Antuofermo, despite all his butt induced bleeding, was something of a defender along the lines of Chuvalo and LaMotta, much more difficult to connect solidly on than he appeared to observers. (I'll mention here though that Vito himself used his exposed forehead as a weapon to his detriment. Neither Marciano or Chuvalo led with their heads, and butt induced bleeding was not a major factor in their careers. Don Curry responsibly emphasized after his second straight DQ win on a head butt (against Carlos Santos), that protecting one's head from butts is very much a part of self defense. (That absence of butt induced stoppages on Locche's record demonstrates what a ridiculous defensive wizard he was. Cervantes stopped him on a cut over his left eye in their rematch. While it slowed Locche down a bit, I can't buy the decision to stop it. Granted, it's inferior B&W television footage, but he looks good to go to the final bell at the time the halt is called over his furious protests.)


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Thanks a lot @Duo, greatly detailed accounts on some great historical fighters. And great point on Chavulo and LaMotta, Chavulo made this point himself in "After the Last Round" where he talks about rolling with shots.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Thanks a lot @Duo, greatly detailed accounts on some great historical fighters. And great point on Chavulo and LaMotta, Chavulo made this point himself in "After the Last Round" where he talks about rolling with shots.


There wasn't a lot of what we call pugilistica dementia from the days of fights to a finish or no-decision bouts. Judges didn't have to be impressed, only opponents, to be beaten down, discouraged with power, volume or difficulty connecting cleanly on.

For me, loading up with power was more depleting and draining when that power was deflected and redirected by my target, not if I whiffed air completely. It might be counted as a scoring blow by a judge, but discouraging to not connect solidly with. (Of course a wild miss can open one up to a deadly counter, but here I'm discussing effort expended and wasted.)

Guys like Loughran and Joey Archer were beneficiaries of a new era where decisions were rendered. As great a boxer as Tommy was though, he also benefited from the novelty of that change. By the time Joey came along, Emile Griffith understood full well that he couldn't just take those jabs or subtly neutralize them, but make a grand show for the judges of slipping, ducking and dodging to make them miss so completely that everybody scoring could see they were not making contact. Arguello also had to do this with Busceme, knowing full well that Bubba was trying to steal a hometown decision in Beaumont, Texas with right jabs flicking from the elbow. (In fact, Flash Gordon, scoring at home, recorded a shutout for Busceme in his Tonight's Boxing Program newsletter at the time Alexis caught up to him, but I think the judges scoring live were giving rounds to Arguello because Busceme's show of powerless aggression was not effective aggression making contact. Anybody wanting to see Alexis evasive on defense needs to watch his application of bent knees to move his upper body under and away, rather than fancy footwork. He had pretty strong wiry legs with terrific muscular endurance.)


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

As far as pugilistic dementia goes...it often seems to happen to fighters who drank allot/did drugs.

Now does the substance abuse help cause the dementia. ...or do earlt symptoms of dementia lead to substance abuse...or is it simply that folks who have brains pron to substance abuse are also more damaged by micro and macro head traumas 

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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Jerry Quarry died of pugilistic dementia at 53.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Jerry Quarry died of pugilistic dementia at 53.


It's not a terrific thing that Howard Cosell was already identifying him as having "a granite-like chin" during his first bout with Frazier the month after JQ turned 24. That's something which shouldn't have yet been known. Mike Quarry (who had never been down in his life until Bob Foster nearly decapitated him) died of the same condition at 55. Jerry surprises a lot of viewers with his defensive elusiveness when he dominates Thad Spencer in 1968, but against the monstrous punching Mac Foster in 1970, he'd already deteriorated from slipping and countering to getting hit then countering. I suspect that win over Mac damaged him more than some of his defeats.

The Quarry family has speculated that there may be a genetic predisposition to this, but it's long been my contention that little children with developing brains and developing coordination are simply not old enough to consent to being punched in the head, and with insufficient reflexes to protect themselves properly.

Emile Griffith (whose deterioration was due to a back alley gang mugging he never recovered from after he retired) emphasized that while he didn't want to box, nor was he a little kid when Gil Clancy started teaching him, "not how to fight, but how to move." (Hank Armstrong was also the victim of a mugging when elderly, while Ken Norton was screwed up in a car crash in 1986. Kenny actually did well to reach 70 over a quarter century later.)

Mature volitional decisions to take up boxing with mature brains and reflexes tend to result in greater longevity and neurological preservation. 
Conditioning methods for boxing are terrific physical training techniques for children and females, with one exception. Getting punched in the head offers no health benefits. The male-female equivalent of this is everything *BUT* what can result in pregnancy. Likewise, anything in boxing training BUT what can result in brain damage until reaching the age of consent.

RJJ's getting slammed for his inability to take a punch. I can be safely included among those critics. At the same time, Ali had it right in the mid 1960's when he said, "I hope they're still asking those questions after I'm gone. If I do this the way I should, nobody should ever have any idea if I could take it or not." In the long run, Roy's tendency to crumble when clobbered may be a good deal more beneficial than Ali standing up to head shot after head shot from Shavers.

During the bare knuckle era, with no headgear or mouthpieces, even a light swipe across the mouth could shred the lips against the teeth, the chief reason why the snaggle toothed Kid Lewis innovated a then innovative and widely protested mouthpiece. "You're NOT supposed to get HIT!," repeated an animated Billy Conn as a ringside guest on an ESPN Top Rank Boxing card when Sal Marciano and Al Bernstein asked him about differences between his era and the 1980's.

Stallone helped revive boxing with "Rocky," but while inspiring many kids to take up boxing, he didn't do the evolution of the sport any favors by depicting demonstrations of toughness by deliberately taking shots. Headgear and mouth-guards in amateur competition and training don't exactly inspire concentration on more active defense. Protecting the head means protecting it from head butts, elbows and thumbs, as well as scoring blows. Max Baer had a remarkable chin, but also an underrated defense which allowed him to neutralize Galento's foul tactics, and he seldom looked like he'd been in a fight until Lou Nova ended his career. (Unlike Maxie though, Nova couldn't defend himself effectively against Two-Ton's mugging.)

Watch the conclusion of Jack Johnson-Fireman Flynn to see how a genuine defensive master deals with deliberate head butt attempts. It's a jungle in there, something Dempsey and Foreman among others also understood. "We're in there to raise hell, and the referee's only job is to count to ten!"-Tex Cobb


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

TBH I think its extremely hard to attribute boxing to later life ailments with any real sort of evidence. This is because you get lots of perfectly healthy people who didn't go through loads of head trauma, draining their body etc who still get the same ailments.

Also you have boxers like Jake La Motta going strong at 94 despite being a plonky and his fighting style saw him take mass punishment from huge punchers for a lot more fights than they do in the modern era.

Michael J Fox has Parkinsons and he hasn't taken a competitive punch in his life.

Obviously, taking punches for a living is likely going to have physical effects on a person but humans are so diverse theres no formular to say whats going to happen to a person or not later in life depending on what they do.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> TBH I think its extremely hard to attribute boxing to later life ailments with any real sort of evidence. This is because you get lots of perfectly healthy people who didn't go through loads of head trauma, draining their body etc who still get the same ailments.
> 
> Also you have boxers like Jake La Motta going strong at 94 despite being a plonky and his fighting style saw him take mass punishment from huge punchers for a lot more fights than they do in the modern era.
> 
> ...


Well they are discovering how traumatic brain injury can shorten one's lifespan by accelerating cell death, and how the presence of genes such as apoe4 increases someone's risk of alzheimer's many times over, which is only accelerated by the cell death that occurs during brain injury. So the genetic component is huge. Same with Parkinson's.

A lot of fighters develop illnesses far earlier than the normal population. As you say, things like drugs and alcohol muddy the waters.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Well they are discovering how traumatic brain injury can shorten one's lifespan by accelerating cell death, and how the presence of genes such as apoe4 increases someone's risk of alzheimer's many times over, which is only accelerated by the cell death that occurs during brain injury. So the genetic component is huge. Same with Parkinson's.
> 
> A lot of fighters develop illnesses far earlier than the normal population. As you say, things like drugs and alcohol muddy the waters.


No doubt but each human is unique to themselves. I know people fit as a lop their whole lives, never had any injuries, bumps etc and get alzeimers then I know people who have fought their whole lives and are sane as hell in old age.

Trauma can accelerate cell death but so can many other things, food (even more so in the chemical age), drink, narcotics (not just illegal ones), stress, bad genetics etc.

I think every single case has to be judged on its own merit and can't really be attributed to one thing or another.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> No doubt but each human is unique to themselves. I know people fit as a lop their whole lives, never had any injuries, bumps etc and get alzeimers then I know people who have fought their whole lives and are sane as hell in old age.
> 
> Trauma can accelerate cell death but so can many other things, food (even more so in the chemical age), drink, narcotics (not just illegal ones), stress, bad genetics etc.
> 
> I think every single case has to be judged on its own merit and can't really be attributed to one thing or another.


Of course, but those things are indeed identifiable. Genetics is the predominant factor. Then you have environmental factors such as brain trauma, diet, sleep, exercise. If you have two apoe4 alleles, you're 10 times as likely to get alzheimer's. So a fighter with that gene is at huge risk because it's only compounded with brain trauma, which is inevitable in boxing. Commissions should screen for it.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Jake LaMotta


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## desertlizard (Dec 29, 2015)




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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

About the Quarry brothers, would like to mention here that their father Jack lived to be 83 (1922-2006), their mother Arwanda Marie 84 (1926-2011). Their brother Bobby was an unsuccessful 9-12-2 HW who at 53 has been diagnosed with Parkinson's. The lifespan of their parents is only one indicator, but it does suggest Jerry and Mike had a dramatically shortened life expectancy through boxing. Ali is 74, and his parents both died at 77, so Muhammad's gotten within the age range of his mother and father. (It probably doesn't hurt that he wasn't forced into boxing like the Quarry brothers were by their father Jack, but made a volitional choice, however young he was at age 12, and underwent supervised training and tutelage with Joe Martin and Fred Stoner.)


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

The 3 Fullmer brothers all seemed pretty with it in later years, and all lived to decent ages


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Casual HOOOOOK said:


> The 3 Fullmer brothers all seemed pretty with it in later years, and all lived to decent ages


Which brings up comments from previous posts on this thread:



Bogotazo said:


> Antonio Cervantes (Kid Pambele) used to be institutionalized and had drug problems but he seems fairly lucid and speaks well now.
> 
> Joe Louis also had complications later in his life but they were largely due to cocaine use.





Johnstown said:


> As far as pugilistic dementia goes...it often seems to happen to fighters who drank a lot/did drugs.
> 
> Now does the substance abuse help cause the dementia. ...or do earlt symptoms of dementia lead to substance abuse...or is it simply that folks who have brains prone to substance abuse are also more damaged by micro and macro head traumas?


A valid question...



Bogotazo said:


> A lot of fighters develop illnesses far earlier than the normal population. As you say, things like drugs and alcohol muddy the waters.


Okay. Reportedly, the Fullmer brothers did die with dementia/Alzheimer's, but at an age where that remains a pretty normal development. What does make them noteworthy however is the fact they were Utah Mormons, so drink and drugs were not likely going to be a factor hindering their aging process and longevity. (Dempsey ruefully described himself as a "Jack Mormon," but he did seem to be affected somewhat by the environment he spent his developmental years as a child in following the conversion of his parents and his own baptism as a Latter Day Saint at age eight, and he lived to 88 with a lifestyle of some self restraint and moderation, not self indulgent excess like the gluttony and alcohol consumption of others. In fact, Willard reportedly hydrated on at least a quart of gin the night before their title bout in Toledo, but he did go on to set the former HW Champion longevity record Dempsey broke.)


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## aliwasthegreatest (Jul 29, 2012)

Johnstown said:


> As far as pugilistic dementia goes...it often seems to happen to fighters who drank allot/did drugs.
> 
> Now does the substance abuse help cause the dementia. ...or do earlt symptoms of dementia lead to substance abuse...or is it simply that folks who have brains pron to substance abuse are also more damaged by micro and macro head traumas
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


They're also just beginning to find a link between those who were on steroids when they received their trama with these brain conditions.


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## Chinny (Jun 10, 2012)

Wonderful work here @Duo, a joy to read. Thank you


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## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Carl Froch seems to have got out right, despite his career.

Jermain Taylor hasn't come out the sport well.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Chinny said:


> Wonderful work here @Duo, a joy to read. Thank you


Maybe Historic has only been in winter hibernation. 
*
His father, Jack, gave him his first pair of boxing gloves when he was 3. As the Los Angeles Times said: "The Quarry clan had leather on their hands as soon as they had leather on their feet."

By 5, Jerry was sparring with brother Jimmy in Johnny Flores' gym in Pomona. In later years, Jerry's younger brother, Mike, who became a light-heavyweight contender, served as his principal sparring partner.

"Their whole lives, my brothers were conditioned by my father to take a punch," recalled Jimmy. "That's why they could take so much punishment."

By 18, Quarry had fought more than 200 amateur bouts. After winning the Golden Gloves heavyweight crown in 1965, he turned pro and was unbeaten in his first 20 fights before losing to Eddie Machen, a clever boxer, in 1966.*

I can't find the direct quote right now, but while they remained somewhat lucid, either Jerry or Mike (I think it was Jerry), actually said in an interview that they were just kids, too young to know any better. For all intents and purposes, it was a de facto admission that they did not have the ability to consent to this. It wasn't that their father was mean, but with Jack's sixth grade education he was living his dreams through his children instead of letting them be themselves. In Jerry's case, that's an incredible tragedy, because he possessed a virtually eidetic memory. With his personality, looks and level of coordination and reflexes, who knows? He might have had doors opened to become a surgeon, ground breaking scientist, inventor, or who knows what, but his father imposed his own one dream on his sons, and that was that. (Bobby Quarry's own inherent aspirations were revealed in his boxing nickname, "The Rocket Scientist."

Parents who impose themselves on their children and try living through their children probably should not become parents, and I do consider them abusive, regardless of their intentions.

From "The Prophet:"
*
On Children*
*Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts, 
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, 
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, 
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, 
and He bends you with His might 
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, 
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

*


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## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

It was tough reading about Ray Leonards trip to see Wilfred Benitez in his bio.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Hearns isn't slightly punchy he's really punchy no idea if it's only his speech though or his overall behavior.

There is anvideo of Joe Frazier trying to hit a bad a few months before his death and at one point he missed the bag and fell over.

Not sure how much of it was related to boxing and motorical issues or whether he already had cancer at that point but he looked like some 80 year olds do and some possibly look better. Lamota could still shadowbox at about 90


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## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

Pac stutters when he speaks English, is that a bad sign?


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Is there a video of this SRL visit??


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## doug.ie (Jun 3, 2012)

has jimmy mclarnin been mentioned ?


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

doug.ie said:


> has jimmy mclarnin been mentioned ?


No, he wasn't until you brought him up, and he's a terrific citation. In fact, I believe Jimmy holds the record for longest retirement of any boxing champion, around 68 years after hanging up the gloves, and he was an advertising sponsor of the IBHOF (with Archie Moore and former professional wrestler Count Billy Varga). One of boxing's most economically astute ATG's, he was able to quit a financially independent man during the Depression.

Made it into this millennium in reportedly pretty good shape, before spending his last couple years in assisted living. Golf was his physical activity passion in retirement, and golfing appears to be a favorable pursuit for enhancing longevity. (Even past 90, former POTUS Ford was playing golf. An interviewer asking him what it was like to be 90 received the good humoured response that, "My legs don't work quite as well as they used to, so I have to settle for walking nine holes of golf instead of 18 these days." Actually, that's rather revealing. Screw riding in a golf cart. Even at 90, gimpy knee from the college gridiron and all, Gerry Ford chose to WALK the links, not ride em on his arse in a cart.)

Getting within two months of 97 is a roll of the dice for anybody. That McLarnin maintained good health through virtually all of it is a little different though. And if there's traumatic brain injury in boxing, is there conversely something in the combination of moderate physical activity and concentration good golfing requires which helps preserve and sustain brain longevity? (He was a good enough golfer to reduce his handicap to a three.)


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

sugarshane_24 said:


> Pac stutters when he speaks English, is that a bad sign?


Tough to say because allot of folks will studder./start stop when speaking in a second language that they aren't 100% fluent in.


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## Johnstown (Jun 4, 2013)

sugarshane_24 said:


> Pac stutters when he speaks English, is that a bad sign?


Tough to say because allot of folks will studder./start stop when speaking in a second language that they aren't 100% fluent in.


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## doug.ie (Jun 3, 2012)

oh. and of course the great eder jofre...still with us...still works out....still at a weight he fought at....and they say in the last few years he beat dementia.


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## doug.ie (Jun 3, 2012)

and tony demarco...still with us and in fine health.
to put him into some kind of perspective....he fought kid gavilan !!


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

doug.ie said:


> oh. and of course the great eder jofre...still with us...still works out....still at a weight he fought at....and they say in the last few years he beat dementia.


Also reportedly the first vegan world champion, and certainly the greatest.

Springs Toledo, in his article, Small Consolation for Plant-Eaters hypothesized that vegans handicapped themselves in the ring, and when I read what he'd written, I thought of the anemic punching power and punch resistance of Howard Davis, Jr., the most noteworthy vegan of the late 1970's and 1980's in boxing. Jofre, with his 50 knockouts in 72 wins, might be the exception to prove the rule.

With only the two decision losses to Harada in 78 bouts, and a single early career knockdown against him, he proved he could take and dish it out until calling it quits at 40. (It should be mentioned that there are also healthy vegetarians and unhealthy vegetarians. Soy and grain based products are widely rejected as not suitable for human consumption. Howard did not live to reach 60 before lung cancer killed him, and Linda Eastman McCartney was another noteworthy vegan who died at 56 of breast cancer, with reportedly no family history of the disease.)

Veganism is alleged to forestall and prevent or reduce the severity of gout and arthritis in some cases (which certainly would have helped Frazier), and Jofre hasn't looked movement impaired in the exhibitions he's been noted for in retirement. (I couldn't be a vegan. Too much chlorophyll in my food gives me the runs. On the other hand, I've known and know vegans who get the runs from meat, like Gandhi. Bodybuilder Bill Pearl, who beat out Sean Connery among others for the 1953 Mr. Universe Title in London, became a lacto-ovo vegetarian at age 39 and is now a healthy 85. However, Quick Tillis had his early career sidetracked by loading up on eggs and dairy like Pearl before he was finally diagnosed as allergic to those foods in time to take Tyson the ten round distance. One size simply doesn't fit all when it comes to nutrition.)


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## Arka (Jul 25, 2012)

Ezzard Charles died of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis or Lou Gehrig's disease. believe Stephen Hawking suffers a form of this condition.

The description below is misleading. Muscular dystrophy is a progressive weakening of the msuculoskeletal system . While ALS is more of a neuro-degenerative disorder. Was boxing perhaps a factor in Charles developing the condition?






*Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS)*










Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is a specific disorder that involves the death of neurons.In a number of countries, the termmotor neurone disease(MND) is commonly used, while others usethat term for a group of five conditions of which ALS is the most common.ALS is characterized by stiff muscles, muscle twitching, and gradually worsening weakness due to muscles decreasing in size.This results in difficulty speaking, swallowing, and eventually breathing.
..........
No cure for ALS is known.......The disease usually starts around the age of 60 and in inherited cases around the age of 50.The average survival from onset to death is three to four years.About 10% survive longer than 10 years. Most die from respiratory failure......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyotrophic_lateral_sclerosis


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## Arka (Jul 25, 2012)

Duo said:


> Dempsey needed a pacemaker and other medical attention in his last years, but died with all his marbles, having participated in few protracted wars. In 1977 he published a very good autobiography with his daughter which he originally intended to be posthumous. He lived a retirement of moderation in his personal habits, and got substantial media attention for his longevity. *Some basic good advice was not to eat like a pig or drink like a fish.*
> 
> Tunney did let himself go, freely indulging in drink, and did well to reach 81, but Dempsey preceded him by about two years in birth and also overlapped him by nearly five years in death.


Apparently, Dempsey did enjoy his cigars.

Cigars are not as much of a vice as cigarettes,,where you draw harmful smoke into the lungs. There ares studies that suggest the nicotine might have a protective effect against Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Arka said:


> Ezzard Charles died of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis or Lou Gehrig's disease...Was boxing perhaps a factor in Charles developing the condition?


Ezz claimed he detected indications of it in his body while training during his prime after his diagnosis of ALS. Certainly he wasn't the same after Marciano I, the same way Ali appeared to have his timing and coordination screwed up after Shavers. That is ridiculous punishment to withstand for 45 concentrated minutes to the head. (Tiger Williams absorbed more power shots from Earnie in ten rounds than Ali took from Shavers over the Championship Distance, but most of what Roy took from Earnie was to the body. Nobody ever absorbed head shots from Shavers like Ali did, and likewise for Ezz from Rocky in their first bout.)

Scott LeDoux seemed to be doing fine until he came down with it, even working in the ring with Larry Zbyszko for the AWA after retirement. Scott was a tough guy who took a lot of shots from a lot of heavy punchers. Bobby ***** died of it at 77, having had it for around eight years.

Resistance to brain damage isn't studied enough. One of the few participants in such a study who was known for his ability to take a shot was Tex Cobb, who later obtained his bachelor's degree from Temple University magna cum laude at age 57. Hagler moved to Italy and learned the language well enough to star in action films.

Mustafa Hamsho is doing extremely well at 62, extremely articulate about the situation in Syria, and has speculated that good genes may have a lot to do with his excellent memory, clear thought processes and uncompromised speech. (He also thinks Paddy Flood may have taught him better defense than he's usually credited for.)

Chuck Wepner's a tough guy who's remained sound into his late 70's. He also started suitably late in boxing with a brain that had completed the developmental process. (I'm often a sharp critic of celebrity portrayals in movies and television, both casting and performances, but I'm satisfied Liev Schreiber is perfectly capable of doing Chuck justice in The Bleeder. Wepner's been delighted with the casting of Schreiber to portray him, Schreiber has wanted to play Chuck in a biopic for several years, and they look like they're related when posing together. Wepner had to be a fun character for Schreiber.)

Increasingly, I think of post retirement health and longevity when considering punch resistance. LeDoux didn't have dementia. Neither does Ali. Neither did Charles. But different parts of the brain manifest damage in different ways, and researchers only discovered how bleach disinfects within the last decade, so we've got a long ways to go in deciphering neurology.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hopkins kept himself in good shape. Duran for the way he abused his body, fought very well as he got older. Probably because he was so naturally talented. Holyfield kept himself in shape. Then you have Bowe who did the opposite. I think Manny keeps himself eating right and taking care of himself.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

guys like Hopkins ... and Hagler was a guy who looked like he stayed in great shape. The guys who tended to keep in shape best tended to have complete tools and knew the complete game. Guys like Evander.


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## oldjoe (Jun 25, 2017)

Jack Johnson never had no health issues.


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## nordend33 (Nov 4, 2015)

Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko. Klitschko now is the mayor of Kiev obviously and Lennox talks a bit of nonsense here and there but is clearly not damaged in the brain as far as I can see.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

nordend33 said:


> Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko. Klitschko now is the mayor of Kiev obviously and Lennox talks a bit of nonsense here and there but is clearly not damaged in the brain as far as I can see.


I think Lennox like Hagler was smart. He called it quits and really did quit. I like when guys do that. They give their bodies a chance to heal. One thing I always wondered abou is why some fighters improve or modify and others just get worse. Even Hearns or Duran modified their style a little when they moved up. Little things made them effective. Holyfield modified also and became a little more of a guy who picked his shots. Then you have Donald Curry who slipped and kept slipping, like Tyson a little. They could still have good days, but their defenses got worse and they did not have any modification to deal with that other slippage.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

nordend33 said:


> Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko. Klitschko now is the mayor of Kiev obviously and Lennox talks a bit of nonsense here and there but is clearly not damaged in the brain as far as I can see.


Good call. The Mayor has all his marbles,and more,as has his brother. As a fighter,Vitali might just have been the best heavyweight ever. Nobody will ever convince me they know what would have happened against Lennox had he not got cut. And Vitali dominated everybody else. The only question mark on him was when he retired against a much lighter American. But so did Sonny Liston,who should be in anybodys top 10 in the division IMO. 
As a politician,he absolutely dwarfs anybody in this country. If he was British,he would get my vote any day.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Ken Barlow said:


> The 3 Fullmer brothers all seemed pretty with it in later years, and all lived to decent ages
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ken,I saw a documentary on the brothers and Gene in particular was shaking like a leaf. Which I believe is a sympton of Parkinsons. Call me cynical if you like but a lot of boxers seem to suffer from this. Not in every case,but it can be another term for punch drunk.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Phantom said:


> Great post!


Yes that was brilliant mate. One size does not fit all. Still having a think mate,but on this subject dunno if he's been mentioned but how about Archie Moore? That man had literally HUNDREDS of fights against the very best. ATG,won most but was also knocked out on quite a few occasions. Fantasticc career,must have been 50 when he reired. Almost at the end he knocked out a young Argentinian heavyweight who was all the rage. Ive seen interiews with him at the end of his life. Must have lived to almost,or at,80. Arcticulate,all his marbles,hardly a mark on him.
In contrast Ive seen fighters,particularly,British guys,who retire,look and sound OK . Then years later they show the effects. Unless they're having as many street fights as they had in the ring,which I consider very unlikely,I just don't understand this.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Trail said:


> Joe Frazier
> 
> Marvin Hagler
> 
> ...


IM a bit late in the discussion Trail. But some good ones. And you mentioned the best one,Moore. But lets see how some of the younger ones go in later life,considering my previous post.
Main thing is,every individual is different,whatever we are talking about. I think the OP said that.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

nordend33 said:


> Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko. Klitschko now is the mayor of Kiev obviously and Lennox talks a bit of nonsense here and there but is clearly not damaged in the brain as far as I can see.


I thnk that was a great post mate and hope we see more. But Im not sure Ive heard him talking ANY nonsense. Thing is,we only hear him speaking English. Maybe he's not the best at it and not as good as his brother,who lives in the US I believe. But he puts his point across,and can do so in more thann 3 languages . 
I remember Herbie Hide going on a rant before their fight and trying to intimidate him. Vitali calmly took the piss by saying he didn't speak English very well so could Herbie address him in Russian? Then proceeded to beat the shit out of him when they got in the ring.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

@Trail. A personal opinion about Moore and how extraordinary a character he was. 
1. My cousin used to give me The Ring magazine after Id read it. One artcle I distinctly remember was "Charley Burley the best fighter I ever saw" Written buy Moore. Not ghost written. Written. They'd printed his story but also showed the original draft that he'd provided,complete with corrections when he'd made the {rare} spelling mistake . Corrections made by himself. At that point he was still an active boxer,but it was definitely AFTER the Patterson fight. So he would have been around 50 with a couple hundred fights behind him at the time. Against some we know and some we won't. But Id bet none of them couldn't fight.
2. Maybe after that time,while STILL active he appeared in a film called Huckleberry Finn,as a slave before abolition. I think this was the only time Ive ever seen a boxer in a film where he didn't play a tough guy. This wasn't Mandingo. He put in a masterful performance and never acted again. Get the film if you can.
3. People talk about Ali and how great a guy he was,and how he was discriminated against. I venture to say that Moore encounter much more discrimination,but never seemed bitter. Had more fights than Ali and didn't show as many signs of damage. And,only my opinion and not denigrating Ali as he was quite unique,a better man.


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## Trail (May 24, 2013)

Boxfan said:


> @Trail. A personal opinion about Moore and how extraordinary a character he was.
> 1. My cousin used to give me The Ring magazine after Id read it. One artcle I distinctly remember was "Charley Burley the best fighter I ever saw" Written buy Moore. Not ghost written. Written. They'd printed his story but also showed the original draft that he'd provided,complete with corrections when he'd made the {rare} spelling mistake . Corrections made by himself. At that point he was still an active boxer,but it was definitely AFTER the Patterson fight. So he would have been around 50 with a couple hundred fights behind him at the time. Against some we know and some we won't. But Id bet none of them couldn't fight.
> 2. Maybe after that time,while STILL active he appeared in a film called Huckleberry Finn,as a slave before abolition. I think this was the only time Ive ever seen a boxer in a film where he didn't play a tough guy. This wasn't Mandingo. He put in a masterful performance and never acted again. Get the film if you can.
> 3. People talk about Ali and how great a guy he was,and how he was discriminated against. I venture to say that Moore encounter much more discrimination,but never seemed bitter. Had more fights than Ali and didn't show as many signs of damage. And,only my opinion and not denigrating Ali as he was quite unique,a better man.


I need to find out more about Archie Moore. My Dad is a good authority on Archie Moore - being a lifelong boxing fan, and @Gero a good friend of mine knows his stuff about said gentleman.


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## Tage_West (May 16, 2013)

doug.ie said:


> oh. and of course the great eder jofre...still with us...still works out....still at a weight he fought at....and they say in the last few years he beat dementia.











love this pic of them two.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

@nordend33 sorry mate. I got a bit confused,realised you meant Lennox not Vitali. Old age.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

@doug.ie not criticising you mate but I don't think anybody actually BEATS dementia. It usually gradually gets worse.


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## doug.ie (Jun 3, 2012)

Boxfan said:


> @doug.ie not criticising you mate but I don't think anybody actually BEATS dementia. It usually gradually gets worse.


well...i know nothing about such things if i am honest.....but i based what i said on this....the video isnt in english but the title translates as...'Sunday Spectacular: At age 78, fighter Éder Jofre faces the drama of memory loss'...






where as in the couple of years afterwards...


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

doug.ie said:


> well...i know nothing about such things if i am honest.....but i based what i said on this....the video isnt in english but the title translates as...'Sunday Spectacular: At age 78, fighter Éder Jofre faces the drama of memory loss'...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Doug. I don't know Portuguese but got the gist of the comparison. Must admit he looks slightly better in the 2nd film but nothing significant from what I could see. I DO know that there is medication for illnesses like dementia. Maybe he had been started on something when he appeared in it. 
I DO have knowledge of dementia. Someone very dear to me suffered from it for years,and sas said was a fairly slow,progressive illness. I have also known quite a few others with same illness. Always quite slow,always getting worse. Ive never known anybody actually "beat" it. 
I vaguely remember Jofre boxing. He was an ATG. Clever with a punch. In the film he was doing something he was a master at,which I think could be significant. For a 78 year old layman he looked good,but for an ATG?? And like any boxer who had the number of fights he had,I wonder if it was dementia or something boxing related. No way of knowing.


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## techks (Jun 4, 2013)

Chris Byrd? John David Jackson? Not that famous but good mentions overall. Mayweather SR despite health issues. Bit early but I think Cotto won't let himself go we'll see. Cotto being a reach since the other guys aren't too famous especially SR lol.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Ive commented on Rubin Carter in the other discussion. Never had an easy opponentt,fought champions and some who should have been. Lost an eye in prison,where he spent many years and no doubt had MORE fights. Yet looked and sounded like a self made professor till almost the day he died.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

@Phantom Id like to see your comments mate. Also @Duo


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Re Carter I meant.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Boxfan said:


> @Trail. A personal opinion about Moore and how extraordinary a character he was.
> 1. My cousin used to give me The Ring magazine after Id read it. One artcle I distinctly remember was "Charley Burley the best fighter I ever saw" Written buy Moore. Not ghost written. Written. They'd printed his story but also showed the original draft that he'd provided,complete with corrections when he'd made the {rare} spelling mistake . Corrections made by himself. At that point he was still an active boxer,but it was definitely AFTER the Patterson fight. So he would have been around 50 with a couple hundred fights behind him at the time. Against some we know and some we won't. But Id bet none of them couldn't fight.
> 
> 2. Maybe after that time,while STILL active he appeared in a film called Huckleberry Finn,as a slave before abolition. I think this was the only time I've ever seen a boxer in a film where he didn't play a tough guy. This wasn't Mandingo. He put in a masterful performance and never acted again.


Huckleberry Finn was in 1960. I later saw it as a kid. Here's a British Pathé one minute clip about it:






That is a B&W silent film insert showing Moore's facial expressions. His acting talent is off the charts...

Still the reigning LHW Champion, he apparently acted in this between Durelle II and Besmanoff, with his final LHW Title defense in his rematch dissection of Rinaldi II. His HW demolitions of Rademacher and Lavorante would also take place in 1961. As he is filming this during 1960, he remains LHW Champion and one of the best active boxers in the world.



> Watch the Technicolor sound film in its entirety *RIGHT HERE*!


Fixed....:smile :


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Duo said:


> Huckleberry Finn was in 1960. I later saw it as a kid. Here's a British Pathé one minute clip about it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Duo. Brings back some memories that does. I saw it at the pictures as a kid when it came out. I could tell you a few tales about that picture house. Bet IT could tell a few tales also.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Boxfan said:


> People talk about Ali and how great a guy he was,and how he was discriminated against. I venture to say that Moore encounter much more discrimination,but never seemed bitter. Had more fights than Ali and didn't show as many signs of damage. And,only my opinion and not denigrating Ali as he was quite unique,a better man.


His autobiography was not ghostwritten either. He had the combination of upper arm thickness and reflexes to make his cross-armed defense uniquely effective. (Being a monstrous puncher didn't hurt either. Archie essentially ruined Bobo Olson, previously noted for his durability. When you look at Clay-Moore, you'll notice that young Cassius took no liberties or risks in testing his power.)

Joe Rein claimed not to assess fighters he never personally saw in action, but he made an absolutely brilliant exception well before most others had seen Burley's filmed bout with Oakland Billy Smith. That footage also reflects much of what the Mongoose described of Charley years and years earlier. He passed on the month after turning 75. Interview footage of him late in life reveals a soft spoken character with full mental faculties. (Burley is seated. It can't be ascertained from that snippet whether or not he is physically impaired with arthritis, sciatica or some other hindrance not related to boxing. He worked in sanitation. Making and keeping civilized life possible can wear a body down significantly. During WW II, he worked in a factory making aircraft. Daily physical labor with heavy wear and tear for pay is not a ticket to a long quality of life.)

Eder Jofre gets a free pass at 81 for his public boxing exhibitions and other fitness displays. This is ridiculous:






Vegans who base their dietary practices on idealistic "morality" can shorten their lives and undermine their health and longevity with unhealthy eating habits. (Paavo Airola is the most famous such vegan quack, dying of a stroke at age 64.) Rural Seventh Day Adventists historically seemed to know something about healthy eating habits, and Jofre is among a few athletes who have successfully maintained a high level of performance with that practice. In any event, as an octogenarian, I give him a free pass. I've known too many who succumbed to Alzheimer's who never reached their 80's without ever taking hits to the head. (Women in their 70's today likely did not grow up playing contact sports, or heading soccer balls. Archery and swimming were my mother's sports in college. She didn't know any girls who competed in any sport involving head strikes. Her father's sister was a high school jock during the 1920's, playing basketball, tennis, golf and other sports which had nothing to do with cranial contact as an objective. She was killed in an early 1930's car accident.)

Jofre is not remotely creaky in his movements like the severely arthritic Frazier on the heavy bag in the last years of his life. Eder circles the bag fluidly, and punches quickly with snap and sharp reflexes. Arthritis is a bitch. Some get it, some don't, and there is some evidence that vegan avoidance of mucus forming foods can deflect the onset and impact of gout and arthritis. (Rice is used to make glue. Being a vegan can cripple you if you're ignorant about it. Jofre is obviously no cripple.)


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## Tage_West (May 16, 2013)

JIMMY BIVINS 92. bloody hell completely forgot. i knew there was somebody in the murders row that people on esb where looking to meet up with personally, i remember a while back that Bivins had no death date on his boxrec. but people couldnt believe that he could still be alive. that thread was made about 2007 im sure of it. and sadly bivins passed away 5 years after in 2012. amazing really. long life, had a tremulteous later life just to be refound and protected by boxing fans.


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

@Boxfan How are you bud?
I was watching a vid recently made, of one of my very favorite fighters, the great Jose Mantequilla Napoles, and though at his age of 77, he was answering questions in a slow, rather feeble voice...and from I read, he's experiencing a deterioration of his health, both mentally as well as physically...but could that be due to the natural consequences of old age, as well as a car crash he suffered a few years ago. He is said not to talk very much, and when he does, he reveals a definite decline in his mental facilities...as in talking of a trip he and his wife made recently to Cuba, but his wife says that trip never happened. When prodded about his glory days, as in his great title winning victory over Curtis Cokes, he said "He didn't know where all the blows were coming from. I spread mantequilla on him and he didn't see me."...He maintains pride in that "I don't get into trouble,..I never harm anyone,...and when it's my time, the ring bell will sound"....
Again, it's hard to tell whether his condition is from punches that he took in his fighting days, or whether it's from the natural decline of old age coupled with the after effects of his car crash ala Ken Norton.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Terry Norris and Wilfred Benitez can't talk properly because of hits taken in the ring. Benitez has a googly-eye now, not sure what that is all about.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Phantom said:


> @Boxfan How are you bud?
> I was watching a vid recently made, of one of my very favorite fighters, the great Jose Mantequilla Napoles, and though at his age of 77, he was answering questions in a slow, rather feeble voice...and from I read, he's experiencing a deterioration of his health, both mentally as well as physically...but could that be due to the natural consequences of old age, as well as a car crash he suffered a few years ago. He is said not to talk very much, and when he does, he reveals a definite decline in his mental facilities...as in talking of a trip he and his wife made recently to Cuba, but his wife says that trip never happened. When prodded about his glory days, as in his great title winning victory over Curtis Cokes, he said "He didn't know where all the blows were coming from. I spread mantequilla on him and he didn't see me."...He maintains pride in that "I don't get into trouble,..I never harm anyone,...and when it's my time, the ring bell will sound"....
> Again, it's hard to tell whether his condition is from punches that he took in his fighting days, or whether it's from the natural decline of old age coupled with the after effects of his car crash ala Ken Norton.


Sorry mate. Only just noticed this. Im fine. Hope you OK too. Surprised me a bit this,I thought Naples was long gone. I gather he's still living in Mexico? Shame about the trip to Cuba never happening. However,he could have flown to Cuba in the old days from Mexico,problem being he might not have got back. 
Yes,great boxer. Fighting champion,beat a lot of very good men. But I remember him for 2 losses. One when he lost his title to John Stacey,who wouldn't have beat him at his peak,and when he moved up to fight Monzon,who was TWO divisions above him,not one. 
Beating Cokes tells us how good he was. Cheers Phantom.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

This weekend watched Boxnation with Barry Jones,Gary Lockett,and Enzo Macarinelli on. All sharp,all articulate,and all in good humour. All faced top men,in particular Enzo,while still an active boxer did well on the general knowledge show "The Weakest Link"


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## Erratic (Aug 9, 2017)

Terry Norris is struggling.

He was known to go all-out in sparring, and I'm sure that played a role in his brain damage (same with James Toney). He didn't take any prolonged beatings in fights, his chin didn't allow it.

It wasn't a long drawn out beating but he did take a lot of hard shots in the last minute or two against Keith Mullings. It was quite eye-opening how much slower he looked that night as opposed to a couple fights earlier.

https://www.theverge.com/2014/3/26/5447466/fighting-dirty-behind-boxings-brain-damage-crisis


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## Nightstick (Aug 3, 2017)

Hearns isn't in good shape. In addition to slurring his words (which is not at all the norm for a healthy 58-year-old), he's also having trouble formulating and articulating his thoughts. When he was asked to express his views at a fight a year or two ago, it was so awkward and uncomfortable that they never returned to him.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Ive just thought of another good one. The great Jim Watt.


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## DB Cooper (May 17, 2013)

Getting hit to the head repeatedly just isn't good for you and the consequences of it doesn't seem to play favourites either. 

Whether fighters have successful records or unsuccessful ones the result of them being repeatedly hit to the head can have equally drastic ramifications.


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## Nightstick (Aug 3, 2017)

Counterintuitive as it may seem at first glance, the answer is to return to bare-knuckle fighting. Gloves aren't intended to protect the head, but the hands. In barehanded combat, you don't throw punches at the skull because you'll wind up breaking your hands. There'd be a lot more instances of broken noses, yes, but a lot fewer of dementia. That's OK, as noses heal but brains don't.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Looking at some more recent fighters and their interviews some at least in interviews seem to be doing really well. Obviously Foreman who is now also nearing 70 still seems sharp obviously it might be different once he gets really old but he is still holding up and he had tough fights and not a defensive style.

Also gerry Cooney. he is a bit younger but in his mid 60s and he seem really there mentally allthough he had fewer fights he wasnt a great defensive fighter either.

Another one which is almost suprising is Quawi. He is now 64 and he has been in WARS . His first fight with hoylfield alone would end many fighters' careers and shorten their lives. He had tough fighter for years afterwards up to HW. And he seems sompletely fine no slurred speech, completely there mentally and he speaks really quick and clear.






And the one who really made me go back to this thread: Leroy Cardwell.

I stumbled upon this interview with him






I had no idea who he was so looking at his record: wow. he was a real journeyman. The kind of tough guy who gets beaten up over the years and takes fight after fight. But he shared the ring with ATG HW punchers with the biggest punchers of the golden era. In this video he should be about 70. And he seems completely fine

I have no diea how he is doing so well while guys like Floyd Patterson who and others get dementia early even after they leave the game without any obvious issues. Let alone guys like Bowe and Meldrick Taylor who are obviously punchy in their late 20s already.

http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/403


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> Looking at some more recent fighters and their interviews some at least in interviews seem to be doing really well. Obviously Foreman who is now also nearing 70 still seems sharp obviously it might be different once he gets really old but he is still holding up and he had tough fights and not a defensive style.
> 
> Also gerry Cooney. he is a bit younger but in his mid 60s and he seem really there mentally allthough he had fewer fights he wasnt a great defensive fighter either.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this mate. Not watched the Caldwell bit yet but didn't he fight Joe Bugner?
Regarding Quawi. He took a lot of punches and ate a lot of porridge. I was actually VERY surprised at how intelligent,articulate and what a nice guy he seemed. Although he took a lot as he said he slipped a lot. Gives the lie to those who say you have to be a good amateur to be able to box. These guys learned on a the job cos they were hungry fighters. Imagine Quawi against Stevenson?
Also Quawi is a Muslim. I wonder if the fact that he probably doesn't drink has preserved his brain cells? Booze is often a road that ex fighters go down. Maybe now even drugs also.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> Looking at some more recent fighters and their interviews some at least in interviews seem to be doing really well. Obviously Foreman who is now also nearing 70 still seems sharp obviously it might be different once he gets really old but he is still holding up and he had tough fights and not a defensive style.
> 
> Also gerry Cooney. he is a bit younger but in his mid 60s and he seem really there mentally allthough he had fewer fights he wasnt a great defensive fighter either.
> 
> ...


Just watched Caldwell. See what I mean about hungry fighters? I don't know any British fighters who came off the streets to take a fight. Against Gerry Coetzee?


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

PivotPunch said:


> Looking at some more recent fighters and their interviews some at least in interviews seem to be doing really well. Obviously Foreman who is now also nearing 70 still seems sharp obviously it might be different once he gets really old but he is still holding up and he had tough fights and not a defensive style.
> 
> Also Gerry Cooney. he is a bit younger but in his mid 60s and he seem really there mentally allthough he had fewer fights he wasnt a great defensive fighter either.
> 
> ...


Malcolm "Flash" Gordon always praised Qawi's defensive skills effusively in "Tonight's Boxing Program," enthusing after Qawi-Saad Muhammad II that, "Like a fabulous José Naples master of defense, he never takes a backwards step...always keeping his lead foot between his opponent's feet..." He wasn't sneering at his opponents in showing his white mouthpiece, but as his trainers Quenzell McCall and Wesley Mouzon made clear, breathing through his mouth was simply too long ingrained a habit to change by the time they began working with Dwight. (Qawi, as he comes out of his corner to begin his rounds indeed has his mouth closed over his mouthpiece for a few seconds, then exposes it as soon as he begins breathing with the action.)

Boxing with an open mouth is an invitation to getting a broken jaw. That nothing like this ever happened to Qawi shows what tremendous defensive skill he had in rolling with rights, blocking hooks, and deploying the best counter jab and ring cutting technique of his era.

Regarding Leroy Caldwell, I hope some of his televised late career wins pop up online. Fans in Las Vegas would be chanting his name as he stood in place slipping an attacker's shots, and his bout with a post Berbick Big John Tate was also televised. Although John, nine years younger at 27, was clearly superior, and Caldwell was no threat to hurt him, Leroy was very clearly having fun in a nationally televised opportunity as his career was drawing to a close. He started boxing professionally when in his mid 20's, greatly improved with experience, and was in the mould of guys like George Chaplin, Bob Stallings, Stan Ward, and reportedly Ted Lowry, an opponent who posed little risk as a knockout menace, but could be counted on to extend somebody who needed rounds of work.

Gerrie Coetzee was his final stoppage defeat. Tate never had him in trouble, despite Big John desperately needing to be impressive in his last major televised opportunity.

Jimmy Young and Goyo Peralta are among the upper weight patron saints of Leroy's ilk. (Whitehurst isn't somebody I include here, because Bert was a runner. Late career Caldwell didn't use his legs to elude shots.)

Fine article on Leroy over a decade back:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/articles-of-2006/4760-leroy-caldwell-subtle-and-quiet-dignity

Leroy wasn't a clutching spoiler, or a runner, but somebody who was fun to watch take lesser opponents to school, got some significant bouts with decent exposure at career's end, and may have finished up performing at the highest level of his potential. Going back to ESB Classic, I've been extolling Caldwell for over a decade. Obviously I'm pleased he's now seen speaking for himself, but I'd sure like to see those late career broadcasts of this sage veteran in winning action as his Las Vegas faithful chant his name. When you see him box, you realize he was no kind of punching bag.

Bert Whitehurst died of a heart attack at age 49. Boxing had nothing to do with that. It appears to have been a surprise, like Max Baer at age 50, three days after energetically refereeing Zora Folley and Alonzo Johnson for ten rounds in his clownish way (playing to the crowd and athletically vaulting over the top rope after it was over, according to Jimmy Cannon). There's likely a congenital issue with early deaths like theirs. (Maxie had let himself get flabby, but he certainly wasn't a 500 pound Buster Mathis. Clean living and a daily three mile jog like Jack Sharkey's wouldn't have saved the Larruper from an early grave. Even today, a marathon champion turned cardiologist like Norbert Sander, Jr. can die suddenly of a heart attack in 2017.)

Tiger Ted Lowry was good and happy to receive salutations to the end of his life at 90. Just how good was his functioning and condition at age 89? Take a look!:






Of course the way he moves simply means he dodged the crippling arthritis bullet, but walking downstairs in the completely unimpaired way he does is nonetheless remarkable, the way a physically unimpaired retired athlete might be expected to. 1176 professional rounds over 143 bouts covering 16 years against his level of opposition does not typically result in the clarity of speech and quality of mind Ted demonstrates here. (Archie Moore boxed 1473 professional rounds in 220 bouts. The Mongoose's less than 300 more rounds reflects his record knockout total. Pep had 1955 rounds in his 241 bouts, and news reports attributing his death at 84 to dementia pugilistica is presumptuous. Plenty of people were guided around the IBHOF by Willie or otherwise met him there, and he was perfectly fine well past an age where he can get a free pass for mental decline. Joe Rein said Pep would have sold his left nut for an erasure, but in a televised interview, Willie contradicted this, cautioning, "I could hurt you!" His second round left hook body shot knockout of Jimmy MacAllister is a filmed textbook example of how to properly execute this blow to produce a full count out, and his jaw fracturing right cross to take out Bartolo in their third bout to consolidate all FW Title claims was the only time Sal was laid out for ten in 98 bouts. Pep boxed frequently for the money, and used the tactics he did to permit that. Bartolo III and MacAllister show he could be extremely dangerous when going for the kill prior to his plane crash.)


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

@Boxfan 
yeah I'm sure living clean helps. And yes Quawi had good defence he was really skilled. Still he had tough fights not because he was lacking in skill but because he fought great opponents and because as a 5'6LHW/CW/HW with his style you do get hit. Even if you get hit less % wise than most boxers simply fighting the way he does made his opponents unload at him and the Holyfield fight was insane.

Caldwell seems like a really interesting story just like many of the "elite" journeymen throughout the history of boxing. Nice to see that he's doing well so far health wise.

@Duo

Thanks for the info so he was one of these underachieveing but dangerous journeymen a la Darnell Boone. Still with all the skill still he fought from about 23 to 39 which and has a few tko and ko losses on his record. Among that guys like Lyle, Shavers and Foreman. Granted I don't know how much damage he relaly took in these losses there are many types of kos and tkos but many boxers had shorter careers and are damaged.

Speaking about guys like Pep. I agree that with Pep its interesting. CTE/dementia pugilistica or even dementia in general isnt very well understood yet so how exactly it played a part with pep is hard to say. Safe to say it didn't help him but maybe he would have dveeloped it either way but simply later in life who knows. Reading about pep it seems that he was in good health for a while and only suffered from dementia in the last 6 or so years of his life. Maybe his symptoms simply didn'tz progress for a while and only showed at an old age, maybe it was the fights along with old age and a natural disposition towards it who knows.

But still guys like pep were defensive masters and Pep far more than that was really a spoiler and let#s be honest would be far far froma fan favourite today. But even Ingemar Johannson suffered from dementia late in life. And he had a relatively short career and retired young. Certainly not a tougher career than leroy Caldwell. Allthough both caldwell and Quawi did start later in life which may be a factor.
Who knows not even medical professionals know that much about dementia at the moment.

And wow Ted Lowry might be the most impressive case of a boxer who ahs stayed healthy I've seen so far. Jake Lamotta has incredible genetics with the career he had fighting so many wars and often dehydrated and weak. But for years now he seems to be not there mentally. Which tbf many people his age who never boxed aren't either (if they even reach his age). But save to say that now he has some kind of dementia whatever the source is. Same with Jimmy Bivins who was in pretty good shape at an old age as well but reportedly had issues and dementia at an old age.

But lowry seems completely fine like he doesn't even seem anywhere close to 90 in that video, speaks well, thinks well, moves well, can care for himself and up until the end of his life seemed healthier, fitter and sharper than many 70 year olds who never ever boxed. That's remarkable.

Archie moore is another one. Here in an interview shortly before his death. YOu obviously can't tell everything from just one interview but he seems about as clear mentally here as you would expect from someone who is about 84 and while he talks a bit slow it seems just the way a regular healthy 84 year old would seem. And Moore had a TON of fights including some really tough ones and is along with Duran one of the longest competing fighters I can think of.






Speaking of Duran obviously he also seems good mentally and while I don't speak Spanish his speech seems fine. The remarkable thing about Duran also is that while he had amazing ATG defence unlike Quawi and some other he started boxing at a young age. Most impressive if his not so old video whee he does sparring with Sergio Mora and looks at least 3 decades younger than he really is.






In a sport where you almost expect any really accomplished pro to have visible mental damage it's nice to see some who are doing fine or even better than many people who have never put their brain through any trauma.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> @Boxfan
> yeah I'm sure living clean helps. And yes Quawi had good defence he was really skilled. Still he had tough fights not because he was lacking in skill but because he fought great opponents and because as a 5'6LHW/CW/HW with his style you do get hit. Even if you get hit less % wise than most boxers simply fighting the way he does made his opponents unload at him and the Holyfield fight was insane.
> 
> Caldwell seems like a really interesting story just like many of the "elite" journeymen throughout the history of boxing. Nice to see that he's doing well so far health wise.
> ...


Just watched the Moore interview Pivot Punch. I can't say how much I admire this guys memory. You can see it from the interviewers attitude. Not only a great fighter a great human being. Modest but not falsely modest. For example saying Billy Conn didn't want to fight him. I bet he didn't. Would I be correct in saying there was still a bit of a colour bar in operation in his day? Joey Maxim knocked out our own Freddie Mills,but couldn't handle Archie. Harold Johnson was a GREAT boxer but was beat numerous times. Fantastic guy.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

While on the subject of Freddie Mills,I remember him as a TV personality when I was a kid. Didn't see him very often as it was always on somebody else TV. But he didn't seem affected by the many wars he had,some of which by much bigger men. Plus his early years on the boxing booths. Tragic death though.


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## all at sea (Jun 11, 2014)

Boxfan said:


> While on the subject of Freddie Mills,I remember him as a TV personality when I was a kid. Didn't see him very often as it was always on somebody else TV. But he didn't seem affected by the many wars he had,some of which by much bigger men. Plus his early years on the boxing booths. Tragic death though.


Did Mills not suffer from really bad headaches after he retired?


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

all at sea said:


> Did Mills not suffer from really bad headaches after he retired?


Now you come to mention it mate I believe he did. Apparently he was a small light heavy but he fought bigger guys,albeit not massive heavyweights by todays standards. Joe Baksi and Bruce Woodcock. He suffered bad Los,one against Maxim and another by Lloyd Marshall. My uncle was at the latter fight and told me he was lifted off his feet. So a hard career. The headaches are not surprising but he didn't seem to show classic signs of being punchdrunk.


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## all at sea (Jun 11, 2014)

Boxfan said:


> Now you come to mention it mate I believe he did. Apparently he was a small light heavy but he fought bigger guys,albeit not massive heavyweights by todays standards. Joe Baksi and Bruce Woodcock. He suffered bad Los,one against Maxim and another by Lloyd Marshall. My uncle was at the latter fight and told me he was lifted off his feet. So a hard career. The headaches are not surprising but he didn't seem to show classic signs of being punchdrunk.


Have you watched the GGG-Alvarez fight yet? How did you score it , if you have seen it?


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

all at sea said:


> Have you watched the GGG-Alvarez fight yet? How did you score it , if you have seen it?


Bit of a saga mate. I went back to BT for phone and broadband,took a cheaper package which they said included Boxnation. Have had no problems until last night. Found out as I get BN through BT I would for the first time have to pay for GGG/Canelo. Which I did. Didn't want to miss that but thought the bill was very limited.
To the fight itself. I used to sit and score fights but now I don't as it spoils it somewhat,so I go by general impression . Id got GGG the more dominant fighter,and saw him winning. Not much in it. I don't really see anybody to beat him as the division is not exactly laden with talent,but if somebody comes along who is just that bit special at the weight,I think its only a matter of time before he loses. That guy isn't BJS but might just be Jacobs in a return. Or even possibly Canelo. I still don't rate GGG with Monzon and Hagler. With apologies to our absent friend Mervyn.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Boxfan said:


> Now you come to mention it mate I believe he did. Apparently he was a small light heavy but he fought bigger guys,albeit not massive heavyweights by todays standards. Joe Baksi and Bruce Woodcock. He suffered bad Los,one against Maxim and another by Lloyd Marshall. My uncle was at the latter fight and told me he was lifted off his feet. So a hard career. The headaches are not surprising but he didn't seem to show classic signs of being punchdrunk.


Tbf he was really young when he died so we don't know how he would have been several years down the line. Also There is chance that he violently murdered several women. Looking at Chris benoit for example that might also be the result of brain trauma. Then again with boxers especially its hard to tell because you need a certain liking for violence to get started in this sport anyway so hard to say what the cause and the effect is here.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

PivotPunch said:


> Leroy Caldwell.
> 
> I stumbled upon this interview with him
> 
> ...


Here is the excellence and stylish class of Leroy Caldwell on television shutting out the deadly punching Jeff Shelburg before a very pleased and appreciative Las Vegas audience.

First, for context, here's how dangerous Shelburg could be, especially with his right:











There's ample footage of Shelburg in action. He was no joke, and his power was familiar to early fans of Top Rank Boxing on ESPN. But there was a classy boxer and character we rooted for when he boxed on ESPN, and we rooted for him when he took Shelburg COMPLETELY to school...:











The class and character of the man shines through in his post match interview of over two and a half minutes after completing his shutout win:


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## thegee (Feb 10, 2017)

Quite a few boxers maintained lifelong good health after their careers ended.. JImmy Wilde, Henry Cooper, Joe Bugner.,Archie Moore , George Foreman, Ray Leonard, Chris Eubank Snr, , Nigel Benn,Lennox,Monzon,both Klitschko"s,Calzaghe,Pastrano,, Sugar Ray Robinson,Holyfield, Hopkins, and Stracey. Just a few from the top of my head, there are many more. Regards Mervyn The Gee


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## One Man (Jul 13, 2018)

Benn and Eubank are still ripped in their mid 50s.


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## superman1692 (Jun 3, 2013)

thegee said:


> Quite a few boxers maintained lifelong good health after their careers ended.. JImmy Wilde, Henry Cooper, Joe Bugner.,Archie Moore , George Foreman, Ray Leonard, Chris Eubank Snr, , Nigel Benn,Lennox,Monzon,both Klitschko"s,Calzaghe,Pastrano,, Sugar Ray Robinson,Holyfield, Hopkins, and Stracey. Just a few from the top of my head, there are many more. Regards Mervyn The Gee


Sugar Ray Robinson?? Mate it's well known he suffered from serious pugilistic dementia later on in his life. He was not in a good way health-wise before he died. Also Holyfield is slurring quite a bit, though he otherwise seems okay - but who knows how he might be down the line.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

superman1692 said:


> Sugar Ray Robinson?? Mate it's well known he suffered from serious pugilistic dementia later on in his life. He was not in a good way health-wise before he died. Also Holyfield is slurring quite a bit, though he otherwise seems okay - but who knows how he might be down the line.


Thats true. Being affected seems to be progressive. Dunno whether you remember but Holyfield was in Big Brother quite a few years ago. I was fascinated he was on it but he came across as quite boring and a bit uncomfortable in the company of others. While lesser boxers like David Haye and Joe Bugner thrived on similar programs.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

Though not sure about Robinson. He seemed OK for quite a long time after his career, though progressive as it is it could well have got to him later.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

One Man said:


> Benn and Eubank are still ripped in their mid 50s.


Apart from that their faculties appear still very sharp. But.......in later years who knows?? 
Then again those of us who have taken much less can suffer from dementia at any time. I know many people who have hardly ever been hit who have to go in care homes.
On the other hand I think sometimes being punch drunk can be explained away as Parkinsons.


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## KOTF (Jun 3, 2013)

This is a great thread.

You look at legend like Benitez, and the way he fights and you wonder, how can he be punch drunk? While legends like Foreman, Qawi or Chavez Sr. fought in destroyer mode and yet display no long term effects of CTE? Well that's very simple: look up the ages when they started boxing. Benitez was already in the ring under the age of 10! So he's already taking punches to the head as a mere child. Meanwhile, Foreman and Chavez Sr. didn't start boxing until they were 16, and Qawi was already a 28 year-old when he started his boxing career. In addition, all three had limited amateur careers, Foreman won a gold medal with only 24 amateur fights, Chavez had a brief amateur career, Qawi's only "amateur" fights occurred he was in the prison boxing program.

This is why you have Hearns, Leon Spinks, Bowe, Terry Norris, etc. have some form of CTE because of the extensive amateur career, lacing up a pair of boxing gloves before becoming teenagers.

You can get the rare example like Ray Leonard who became a boxer at age 13, had an extensive amateur career, yet appears to avoided CTE, but then again he only had 40 pro fights, and he kept having hiatuses in his 20's.


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## Big Yank Bal (Aug 2, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> Also gerry Cooney. he is a bit younger but in his mid 60s and he seem really there mentally allthough he had fewer fights he wasnt a great defensive fighter either.


The good thing for Cooney is that his career wasn't that long and even during his career there were sabbaticals. Also, I'm trying to think, does anyone know if Cooney had any tough fights other than his 3 losses?


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

The problem is that many mental health issues can be invisible. Many American football players can give lucid and articulate interviews but privately they are battling depression, personality changes, mood swings, addiction, violent tempers, and other mental related illness.

So while slur speech and “slowness” are obvious signs of boxer brain damage, there are a slew of symptoms that we may not see or hear about.

Not to mention indirectly or directly making existing conditions worse


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Carlos Ortiz was famous for keeping himself in shape and continuing to work out in retirement. (Even for his final match against the just dethroned Ken Buchanan, Carlos was in perfect condition, but quit to end his career when it was obvious Ken's vastly superior speed was too much for Ortiz to overcome.)

Now we know. Carlos Ortiz has finally passed at an extremely respectable 85 years of age following a recent stroke. Always one of the great guys to ever emerge from the pugilistic ranks. If you happen to catch some of his guest commentary for other bouts during the early 1960's, enjoy it, as his intelligence and personality shines through.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ortiz_(boxer)


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## Philly Shell (Sep 4, 2018)

Larry Holmes has always sounded very sharp in the past but listening to him recently he has fallen away noticeably. He is 72 but that alone isn't a good reason to sound the way he does now.


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## gumbo2176 (May 17, 2013)

One of the saddest things I've witnessed concerning boxing is when I ran into Tony Licata one night when my now ex-wife and I went to a movie theater to catch a flick. I left her in line at the concession stand to hit the bathroom and I ran into Tony in the Men's room. I immediately recognized him from our amateur days sparring him a few times and all the fights I had gone to see him as a pro. This was after he had finally retired.

He had a good career going 60-7-4 in his 11 year career and fought the likes of Carlos Monzon, Tony Chiaverini, Alan Minter, Emile Griffith, etc., etc.

It was very obvious that all his years in the ring had a very negative impact on him with the way he was talking to me, slurring his words and seemingly not following his train of thought. I remember feeling so bad for the guy to still be a young man of only 28 and have this going on in his life. It was even sadder that he passed away at age 56 when most people are just starting to enjoy their approaching senior years.


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## SashaBoxingGirl (7 mo ago)

Foreman still doing well.

Just saw a interview of him recently. Voice and cognition don't seem much different from 25 years ago and looks about the same physically (clearly less muscle but still looks strong and definitely less fat)


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## starprocombat1 (6 mo ago)

Most experts consider the top four champions who retired undefeated to be Rocky Marciano, Floyd Mayweather, Joe Calzaghe, and Andre Ward


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