# A random MiddleWeight champion in his prime is standing behind a curtain.....................



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

If your life depended on the victory, which Prime MW will you pick to represent you against the unknown MW Champion standing behind that curtain?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Kelly Pavlik


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

Depends who's behind the other curtain but i'd go with Marvin Hagler every time. Best MW in my liefetime.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

fuck it, give me Roy Jones Jr


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Hagler.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Hagler.


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## Hatesrats (Jun 6, 2013)

Want to say Carlos Monzon...
But Hagler is my dude. (Ryde or die)


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Monzon


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Langford


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## Kissan (May 18, 2013)

Hagler or RJJ would be my picks. The best ever imho.
Could Hagler beat RJJ - Yeah, absolutely.
Could RJJ beat Hagler - Not so sure


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

Darren Barker or Hagler, not sure which one


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> fuck it, give me Roy Jones Jr


Easy money :deal


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Easy money :deal


:lol: yeah I gave this real thought and put myself in that situation. I started naming off Monzon, Hopkins, SRR, Greb, and Hagler of course and thinking which one to pick. When it comes down to it though, one of those guys may be the correct choice, but if my life is on the line and I HAVE to get this right, I'm going with Roy Jones Jr.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> :lol: yeah I gave this real thought and put myself in that situation. I started naming off Monzon, Hopkins, SRR, Greb, and Hagler of course and thinking which one to pick. When it comes down to it though, one of those guys may be the correct choice, but if my life is on the line and I HAVE to get this right, I'm going with Roy Jones Jr.


Hopkins is another good one. If I had to go in order of MW's it'd be Roy Jones is my easy #1 , then Hagler, then Hopkins, then Robinson.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Hopkins is another good one. If I had to go in order of MW's it'd be Roy Jones is my easy #1 , then Hagler, then Hopkins, then Robinson.


yeah that's a good list. Hopkins vs Robinson would have been cool as hell. SRR was a beast obviously, but he wasn't unbeatable at MW. If he had footage and prepared like fighters do nowadays though, I'm sure he wouldn't have had as many bumps in the road though.


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## stevebhoy87 (Jun 4, 2013)

Robinson

Based on record it's likely Greb, but I'll exclude him due to lack of footage. Robinson at his absolute best for me just in front of Monzon. Jones is a good one too, though his lack of experience when he was at middleweight puts me off a bit


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## Ricky42791 (Jun 7, 2013)

Hagler for sure


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> yeah that's a good list. Hopkins vs Robinson would have been cool as hell. SRR was a beast obviously, but he wasn't unbeatable at MW. If he had footage and prepared like fighters do nowadays though, I'm sure he wouldn't have had as many bumps in the road though.


A guy that lost to Randy Turpin just aint going to make my #1 choice though

:yep


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## bald_head_slick (May 23, 2013)

Prime RJJ.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

That man could be Burley and we all know SRR is just way too pretty for him.

RJJ is the safe pick.


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

Golovkin.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

dyna said:


> That man could be Burley and we all know SRR is just way too pretty for him.
> 
> RJJ is the safe pick.


Ray'd be all like


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## BUMPY (Jul 26, 2012)

Roy Jones man nobody is touching that.


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## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

James Toney easily.


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## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

The Middleweight champ I'd be most terrified to see standing behind the curtain would be Monzon, sooooooo...

Monzon.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Nick said:


> James Toney easily.


what if he's going against Roy Jones Jr


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

Marvin S. Hagler.


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## Pimp C (Jun 3, 2013)

Chavez Jr obviously


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## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

Boxed Ears said:


> Marvin S. Hagler.


I believe it's 'Q.'


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

How is Ray Robinson an ATG again?
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=379244&cat=boxer

Doesn't look like an ATG resume


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## Elite (May 22, 2013)

dyna said:


> How is Ray Robinson an ATG again?
> http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=379244&cat=boxer
> 
> Doesn't look like an ATG resume


Then you know nothing of boxing. Though that's normal for people who haven't watched the sport for as long as some have.

Anyways, have to go with speed here gonna go with Roy on this one.


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## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

Marvelous M. Hagler


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

Uh, yeah, like Marvin Quimby Hagler and Marvin Mitchum Hagler are as good as Marvin Smfmmphm Hagler...Hell naw! :bart


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## ~Cellzki~ (Jun 3, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> fuck it, give me Roy Jones Jr





turbotime said:


> Easy money :deal


:deal

#unbeatable


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## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

Boxed Ears said:


> Uh, yeah, like Marvin Quimby Hagler and Marvin Mitchum Hagler are as good as Marvin Smfmmphm Hagler...Hell naw! :bart


Marvin Q-agler Hagler.

Duh.


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## 941jeremy (Jun 12, 2013)

So are you going to tell us who's behind the curtain?


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## allenko1 (Jun 27, 2012)

Roy...


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

the cobra said:


> Marvin Q-agler Hagler.
> 
> Duh.


...

...

...

...

...

...Your name still should have the correct capitalisation. Call me when you take YOUR OWN SELF seriously enough to have a proper name. Until then, I ain't havin' it. :bart


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## adamcanavan (Jun 5, 2012)

Greb


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

adamcanavan said:


> Greb


:lol: :yep


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Hagler would be my choice. No doubt. 

He can box, he can bang. No matter how the fight turns out, he has a way to win.


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## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

Boxed Ears said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I never really looked at it like a full, proper name though. I always just saw myself as some generic cobra being talked about mid-sentence, you know? "Arm yourself with a weapon, man, like that pump-action shotgun or the cobra over there."

I don't know, it's a self-esteem issue I guess. :verysad


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

JeffJoiner said:


> Hagler would be my choice. No doubt.
> 
> He can box, he can bang. No matter how the fight turns out, he has a way to win.


Dammit, Jeff. Don't cop out in this thread, man. WHICH Hagler? S? Q? Q-? H? M? X?


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## adamcanavan (Jun 5, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: :yep


Pretty obvious choice if you ask me. Sure we dont have footage but we know he's p4p top 10 of all time and more importantly, whoever is behind that door also hasnt seen footage of greb but knows he's great so cant really prepare for him. That's how I see it anyway :lol:


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Once again: Hagler.

We don't know who the ref or judges would be, so it can't go to the cards. I want the guy almost guaranteed to end it with a KO. We also don't know how tough this opponent is, so I want a guy that keeps coming even when he gets hit hard.

Hagler, or maybe McClellan.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Monzon, head to head it's hard for me to see anyone at middle beat him including RJJ or Hagler even though i love Hagler and would like to pick him Monzon is my man for this


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

941jeremy said:


> So are you going to tell us who's behind the curtain?


Not yet.. I wanna see how many posters would end up 'dead' because of their choices.


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## rocky1 (Jan 6, 2013)

Richie Woodhall or SRR, I'd flip a coin.


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## Elliot (Jun 4, 2013)

Andy Lee.


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## Stiffjab (May 21, 2013)

Langford is my boy for the job :deal


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## DaCrooked (Jun 6, 2013)

Kelly Pavlik
Jermain Taylor
Sergio Martinez


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Elite said:


> Then you know nothing of boxing. Though that's normal for people who haven't watched the sport for as long as some have.
> 
> Anyways, have to go with speed here gonna go with Roy on this one.


How is THIS! an ATG resume
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=379244&cat=boxer

16 wins, 2 losses, all against no names.


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## DirtyDan (May 25, 2013)

My first choice would of been Jones Jr of 94 right before the Toney fight. But other than Hopkins, he doesn't really have a good win there. I'm not sure how he'd handle Hagler, Monzon, or Robinson.

I'd have to pick Hagler, a prime Hagler, not the one who lost to SRL.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

1. Jones
2. Hagler
3. Robinson

I make that list quite tentatively they could really be switched around anyway.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

DirtyDan said:


> My first choice would of been Jones Jr of 94 right before the Toney fight. But other than Hopkins, he doesn't really have a good win there. I'm not sure how he'd handle Hagler, Monzon, or Robinson.
> 
> I'd have to pick Hagler, a prime Hagler, not the one who lost to SRL.


True. Guys like Robbo, Monzon and Hagler are much more proven...thing is though I don't pick Monzon because he never faced someone with a great movement or a great jab like Hagler. I think he'd have trouble with guys who could move well.


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## MGS (Jun 14, 2013)

Charley Burley bring it


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Kissan said:


> Hagler or RJJ would be my picks. The best ever imho.
> Could Hagler beat RJJ - Yeah, absolutely.
> Could RJJ beat Hagler - Not so sure


RJJ would clown Hagler. He would make him look far worse than SRL did. Could Hagler beat middleweight Roy? Almost certainly not imo, he wouldn't be able to get near him.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Sheeeeeit mentioning Burley might change mine to:

EZZARD "MACK DADDY" CHARLES

Come at me...


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> RJJ would clown Hagler. He would make him look far worse than SRL did. Could Hagler beat middleweight Roy? Almost certainly not imo, he wouldn't be able to get near him.


Fuck sake man really? The absolute worst version of Hagler to ever step into the ring in a fight many had him winning anyway is your benchmark? Do you even boxing m8?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

DirtyDan said:


> My first choice would of been Jones Jr of 94 right before the Toney fight. But other than Hopkins, he doesn't really have a good win there. I'm not sure how he'd handle Hagler, Monzon, or Robinson.
> 
> I'd have to pick Hagler, a prime Hagler, not the one who lost to SRL.





MadcapMaxie said:


> Fuck sake man really? The absolute worst version of Hagler to ever step into the ring in a fight many had him winning anyway is your benchmark? Do you even boxing m8?


Prime Hagler couldn't do much with a fat, over it Duran fighting 25 lbs and four divisions above his peak weight. :lol: Or was Hagler not prime in '83 either?


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Prime Hagler couldn't do much with a fat, over it Duran fighting 25 lbs and four divisions above his peak weight. :lol: Or was Hagler not prime in '83 either?


Underwhelming performance. Hagler won regardless. Duran couldn't do much against Hearns?

As Duran had just beaten Cuevas and Moore how was he over it? He went on to beat Barkley too.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Underwhelming performance. Hagler won regardless. Duran couldn't do much against Hearns?
> 
> As Duran had just beaten Cuevas and Moore how was he over it? He went on to beat Barkley too.


How was he over it? By not being half the fighter he was or carrying the weight nearly as well as he did at 130-147. All of his physical attributes were terribly compromised and its obvious in his rigidness and movement.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

This is what scares me about Roy Jones Jr.

He was the most gifted boxer of the 90's... easily. But I (and many others not just ChinChecker Trolls) got some legitimate questions in regards to his chin. We never really knew if his chin was always suspect or it was because of the weight drain.. because he never really got caught with massive shots during his youth and prime.. This is due to 2 factors.
1-He got extreme athleticism,speed,and reflexes.
2-He didn't fight some of the big punchers of his era.

I'm not saying that the likes of Benn or Dariuz could have beaten Roy. I'm saying they might have landed a few to show us just how his chin really was during his Prime.

The difference between Jone's chin and say a Wlad/Lewis is that in regards to Lewis...Lennox DID take a huge amount of punishment throughout his career ...or at the very least enough to show that his chin could take big punches. He was clearly hit by hard punchers like Vitali,Bruno,Briggs,Tua,and Mercer.. 
As for Wladimir...... even though he never showed the ability to take punishment like Lewis.. all 3 losses of his and the numerous KD'S were against big punchers.

Roy was knocked out by Glen Johnson(yes past his prime and heading towards shot I know) but I honestly can't remember the last time a Champion was knocked out cold by someone with as little power as a Glen Johnson type. 


I'm not saying that Prime Roy was over rated. He's not. But I just can't put my life in the hands of a chin like Roy's.

And I believe most of you won't either.. if the scenario I printed out was actually real.. I think most of you picking Roy would hesitate and think a bit more.


Lennox Lewis is my favorite fighter of all times.. but if I HAVE to pick a BEST OF ONE... and MY LIFE was on the line. I would go with Prime Ali every time. Simply because Lewis was knocked out once and counted out another time. 

Now if it was a BEST OF THREE? I would pick Prime Lewis.. but in a one off.. you MUST go with someone that have shown an granite chin.

I will go with Hagler over 160 Roy any day of the week.. (not to mention 160 was not Roy's best weight)


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Sheeeeeit mentioning Burley might change mine to:
> 
> EZZARD "MACK DADDY" CHARLES
> 
> Come at me...


0-1-1 against Ken Overlin, who's main claim to fame was being dubbed "The Poor Man's Harry Greb"


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

SRR! Because if you pick Hagler and then his opponent would be SRL and then what?


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> 0-1-1 against Ken Overlin, who's main claim to fame was being dubbed "The Poor Man's Harry Greb"


Beat Yarosz and Burley twice.

Also c'mon man who realistically would've beaten him the stage Charles fought him? Would anyone today even step in the ring with someone like him that early?


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> SRR! Because if you pick Hagler and then his opponent would be SRL and then what?


The worst version of Hagler to step in the ring and by many people's opinion beat Leonard anyway so imagine an actual prime Hagler. The version of Hagler that Leonard said he'd never fight.

That's two people in an hour using this example...


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Beat Yarosz and Burley twice.
> 
> Also c'mon man who realistically would've beaten him the stage Charles fought him? Would anyone today even step in the ring with someone like him that early?


And he was green!

Even with the weight advantage, the Burley wins are ace. I dont know that he ever got to really find his way as a complete fighter at MW though. He raised all sorts of hell when he grew into his frame.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> The worst version of Hagler to step in the ring and by many people's opinion beat Leonard anyway so imagine an actual prime Hagler. The version of Hagler that Leonard said he'd never fight.
> 
> That's two people in an hour using this example...


Haha i didn't read the previous post.. wasn't trying to copy. well many people's opinion isn't good enough to save your life though. If whoever judging the fight gives it to SRL again then blat.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Fuck sake man really? The absolute worst version of Hagler to ever step into the ring in a fight many had him winning anyway is your benchmark? Do you even boxing m8?


Take those glasses off and join us in reality at some point. Honestly, Hagler couldn't hang with Roy. Hagler is a tough SOB, a great fighter who fought great competition. Roy is levels higher.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)




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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> Take those glasses off and join us in reality at some point. Honestly, Hagler couldn't hang with Roy. Hagler is a tough SOB, a great fighter who fought great competition. Roy is levels higher.


Loma beats Mayweather 10:2

Athletically, yes Roy is levels higher (same with 99.9% of boxers out there). As a boxer no and in terms of legacy no.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


>


How much would you give to be wrapped up in that flag with him? :hey


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> And he was green!
> 
> Even with the weight advantage, the Burley wins are ace. I dont know that he ever got to really find his way as a complete fighter at MW though. He raised all sorts of hell when he grew into his frame.


Agreed. I think with the modern dehydration techniques he could've reigned at Middle today easily...and Super Middle...and Light Heavy....and Cruiser...Plus c'mon his name was Ezzard Mack Charles you can't get a better name.


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> RJJ would clown Hagler. He would make him look far worse than SRL did. Could Hagler beat middleweight Roy? Almost certainly not imo, he wouldn't be able to get near him.


The Hagler who fought SRL was a very different beast to a prime Marvin. I'd have it the other way round, i don't see Jones beating Hagler.


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> SRR! Because if you pick Hagler and then his opponent would be SRL and then what?


Then nothing.

Hagler beat SRL. It's was a BS decision.


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## MGS (Jun 14, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Sheeeeeit mentioning Burley might change mine to:
> 
> EZZARD "MACK DADDY" CHARLES
> 
> Come at me...


*not at lhw, ezzard just had a big weight advantage


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## Marcus Browne (Jun 6, 2013)

G-Man in his prime nobodys sees round 3!


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Marcus Browne said:


> G-Man in his prime nobodys sees round 3!


James Toney


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> Take those glasses off and join us in reality at some point. Honestly, Hagler couldn't hang with Roy. Hagler is a tough SOB, a great fighter who fought great competition. Roy is levels higher.


And we can tell this by the extreme levels of competition Roy fought at middleweight...


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Theron said:


> And we can tell this by the extreme levels of competition Roy fought at middleweight...


We can tell by looking at styles. Jones is all wrong for Hagler. Jones is far more athletic and a far bigger guy. Roy Jones at middle/super middle is SRL 2.0


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> We can tell by looking at styles. Jones is all wrong for Hagler. Jones is far more athletic and a far bigger guy. Roy Jones at middle/super middle is SRL 2.0


We can't tell what will happen at middle though because Jones never faced a guy near Hagler in terms of skill or anything, Hagler is top 3 All time at Middleweight and nobody Jones faced at middle could even come near the skills Hagler had so we can't know.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> We can tell by looking at styles. Jones is all wrong for Hagler. Jones is far more athletic and a far bigger guy. Roy Jones at middle/super middle is SRL 2.0


The only reason Leonard gave Hagler problems was because the version he faced was reduced to a sluggish plodder watch the Sibson fight or the Hamsho fight. He dismantled people with nothing but his movement which is one of the best of any Middleweight ever and his jab which may be the best of all Middle's. Hagler, well past his best mind you, fought something similar to Jones in Leonard and on my card beat him. Jones has never faced anyone like Hagler, certainly nobody who moved as well or had as good a jab. Particularly over 15.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Theron said:


> We can't tell what will happen at middle though because Jones never faced a guy near Hagler in terms of skill or anything, Hagler is top 3 All time at Middleweight and nobody Jones faced at middle could even come near the skills Hagler had so we can't know.


Bernard Hopkins? These sort of threads are about hypotheticals, and hypothetically if Jones stayed at middle he would've been the GOAT middleweight. If we can put Floyd as an ATG at 130 over Corrales then we sure as hell can put Jones up there with a win over Hopkins while fighting with a broken hand. Add in how spectactular he looked against guys like Tate and Malinga. Jones around that weight was the real 'alien'. I have no doubt at all he would comfortably and soundly trounce little tough Hagler.
This thread isn't about who had the best resume, you need to understand that.


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## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

I want to say RJJ who may well be the best H2H middleweight of all time, but there is only one man i would wnt behind me. Carlos Monzon who proved more at middleweight than any other fighter in history.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> Bernard Hopkins? These sort of threads are about hypotheticals, and hypothetically if Jones stayed at middle he would've been the GOAT middleweight. If we can put Floyd as an ATG at 130 over Corrales then we sure as hell can put Jones up there with a win over Hopkins while fighting with a broken hand. Add in how spectactular he looked against guys like Tate and Malinga. Jones around that weight was the real 'alien'. I have no doubt at all he would comfortably and soundly trounce little tough Hagler.
> This thread isn't about who had the best resume, you need to understand that.


Okay then what happens if it's Monzon behind the curtain does Jones beat him?


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Theron said:


> Okay then what happens if it's Monzon behind the curtain does Jones beat him?


I haven't seen enough of Monzon to judge. I think Roy Jones around that weight is the closest thing to unbeatable that is possible. There's no way around that sort of athleticism, even if you're the most skilled boxer in the world.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> I haven't seen enough of Monzon to judge. I think Roy Jones around that weight is the closest thing to unbeatable that is possible. There's no way around that sort of athleticism, even if you're the most skilled boxer in the world.


You're in for a treat. Monzon's unbelievable, in my Top 10 H2H.




bit of a weird fight that was..

and this one is a fight of the year


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> I haven't seen enough of Monzon to judge. I think Roy Jones around that weight is the closest thing to unbeatable that is possible. There's no way around that sort of athleticism, even if you're the most skilled boxer in the world.


You haven't seen enough of Hagler to judge either by the look of it.Jones levels above :lol:


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## PowerBack (Jun 4, 2013)

Hagler. Versatile, iron will, iron chin and KO power. He is hard to outbox, and even if you manage to get a lead over him, he is has proven that he can come from behind, he is also not the type of guy that you can upset with a single punch.
Hagler is my bet because there is not one fight or one situation where he can be ruled out.


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## oibighead (May 23, 2013)

Hagler easy


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## PowerBack (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> This is what scares me about Roy Jones Jr.
> 
> He was the most gifted boxer of the 90's... easily. But I (and many others not just ChinChecker Trolls) got some legitimate questions in regards to his chin. We never really knew if his chin was always suspect or it was because of the weight drain.. because he never really got caught with massive shots during his youth and prime.. This is due to 2 factors.
> 1-He got extreme athleticism,speed,and reflexes.
> ...


This.
It is risk to pick fighters who have shown inconsistency or have questionable toughness.


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## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

Stone Rose said:


> You haven't seen enough of Hagler to judge either by the look of it.Jones levels above :lol:


Yeah, this x 100. The ability of Hagler seems to be overshadowed and sometimes ignored by his toughness.

As for the thread...give me the best version of Robinson at middleweight. Can box off the back foot, slug with the best of them, made of iron (very important), and has lethal speed and punching power.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Stone Rose said:


> You haven't seen enough of Hagler to judge either by the look of it.Jones levels above :lol:


I've seen plenty of Hagler


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## Pork N Chili (Jun 3, 2013)

Sugar Ray Robinson at his middleweight best. Hagler and Monzon would come in close second for me.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> You're in for a treat. Monzon's unbelievable, in my Top 10 H2H.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm going to be honest.. I know different eras and all that but I don't see anything impressive about him. He over commits with the jab, plods around, loads up and telegraphs punches, is unathletic etc. He just looks like a big tough guy with a limited arsenal of punches who overwhelms guys with his aggression.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

JMP said:


> Yeah, this x 100. The ability of Hagler seems to be overshadowed and sometimes ignored by his toughness.
> 
> As for the thread...give me the best version of Robinson at middleweight. Can box off the back foot, slug with the best of them, made of iron (very important), and has lethal speed and punching power.


Robinson was never a real middleweight. Do you understand how small and outgunned he would be against a Roy Jones?


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## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)




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## Bil1234 (Jun 11, 2013)

Hagler. He could do it all at the highest level. Slug, box, counter punch, cut the ring off, fight off the back foot, circle, etc. He had a great jab, one of the hardest and most accurate in middleweight history, had great timing, excellent power, one of the best chins in boxing history, and he had a great sense of when to fight certain types of fights. Marvin would be a nightmare for anyone.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bil1234 said:


> Hagler. He could do it all at the highest level. Slug, box, counter punch, cut the ring off, fight off the back foot, circle, etc. He had a great jab, one of the hardest and most accurate in middleweight history, had great timing, excellent power, one of the best chins in boxing history, and he had a great sense of when to fight certain types of fights. Marvin would be a nightmare for anyone.


You mean he knew that Hearns liked to brawl too much?

He didn't fight that smart against Duran, even if it's Duran losing 5 rounds to a past prime lw as a prime mw is stupid.
No way Hagler should have lost those rounds if he fought a perfect fight.
He was also way too slow to adjust against Leonard literally giving away the first few rounds.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

I think that the ranginess of the other fighters listed would cause big problems for Hagler. I always believed that Hopkins would have outpointed him.


----------



## Bil1234 (Jun 11, 2013)

dyna said:


> You mean he knew that Hearns liked to brawl too much?
> 
> He didn't fight that smart against Duran, even if it's Duran losing 5 rounds to a past prime lw as a prime mw is stupid.
> No way Hagler should have lost those rounds if he fought a perfect fight.
> He was also way too slow to adjust against Leonard literally giving away the first few rounds.


No, I mean that he knew when to switch his style in a fight. For example, he started out boxing against Mugabi but then put on more and more pressure as Mugabi was ground down. Against Duran, Hagler showed him a lot of respect (too much) but then did pour on a lot of pressure and punishment as the fight went on.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> what if he's going against Roy Jones Jr


Assuming this fantasy match up represents the best version of the fighter possible,I pick Toney over Jones. He lost the Jones fight because he was 210 pounds and had to get down to 160 very fast. I don't think Roy is tougher than Toney in any way.


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

I think Michael Spinks could make 160 with a 24 hour weigh in...


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

I'd go for Roy too. 

His speed was almost shocking. It befuddled opponents and created such great opportunities for him. And at 160-168 he was a puncher, too. Intelligent fighter, and I never saw him having to fight the other guy's fight when he was at his best. It's a pity his later losses seemed to dull people's opinion of him somewhat. I think his chin was ok, and that his 'suspect' chin has become overstated in recent years. 

There are other fighters that are far more proven at the weight, this is true. Still, I think Jones has enough in his repertoire to make life very uncomfortable for ANY middleweight.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Nick said:


> Assuming this fantasy match up represents the best version of the fighter possible,I pick Toney over Jones. He lost the Jones fight because he was 210 pounds and had to get down to 160 very fast. I don't think Roy is tougher than Toney in any way.


good luck :good


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> I'm going to be honest.. I know different eras and all that but I don't see anything impressive about him. He over commits with the jab, plods around, loads up and telegraphs punches, is unathletic etc. He just looks like a big tough guy with a limited arsenal of punches who overwhelms guys with his aggression.


I think it's a bit of an over-exaggeration. He likes to fight from afar, and he's the best at it.
Great jab, he'd do particularly well against a defensive guy.
Take a look at the guys ring generalship in his fights - probably the best ring general I've ever seen. 
You saw him effectively break Benvenuti down. 
All of this is a big reason why I have Monzon beating Hagler. 
He's not the fastest guy which would be a little disadvantaged against Roy, but he has a long reach and fights at distance well, that's where he'll keep it. Monzon I envision will catch Roy on the counters, he's very good at that. 
I completely disagree with him having a limited arsenal of punches, he has a very impressive punch variety coupled with great timing. This will work to his favour as he can adapt to fighters very well. Roy-Monzon really is a 50-50 fight although I slightly favour Monzon (Hagler's idol).


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> good luck :good


Toney a G. He could very feasibly beat any MW who's ever campaigned in the division. Except Roy.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Toney a G. He could very feasibly beat any MW who's ever campaigned in the division. Except Roy.


yeah I was just looking at that highlight video and DAMMMN


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> yeah I was just looking at that highlight video and DAMMMN


Im gonna go rewatch at least ten of his full fights this week. :deal

And yeah, were you not blown away by that shit? Fucking insane.






Oh no. no no no :rofl :suicide Both of them


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Im gonna go rewatch at least ten of his full fights this week. :deal
> 
> And yeah, were you not blown away by that shit? Fucking insane.
> 
> ...


dog, I love watching the both of them. McCallum is one of the best counters I've seen. It's like every punch you'd throw, he'd have an answer for it. And then when you put him in with Toney :stonk


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Jones schooled both :ibutt!!!!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

:lol:

Indeed part of the reason I've objected to your Roy Boying has come to light the last couple days.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lol @ LHW McCallum though :-(


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

:lol: Would've loved to have seen Jones toy with a 160 McCallum :yep :jjj


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :lol: Would've loved to have seen Jones toy with a 160 McCallum :yep :jjj


Blow me.

:lol: @ Roy having wins over my #7 , #11 , #12 best fighters I've seen in addition to his overall ability, skill, domination and P4P achievements.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Roy is all too easily reduced to shit in a matter of words by forum posters:

Green Hopkins, Drained Toney, Worst HW titleholder (Ruiz), PEDs, Glass Jaw.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Blow me.
> 
> :lol: @ Roy having wins over my #7 , #11 , #12 best fighters I've seen in addition to his overall ability, skill, domination and P4P achievements.


Ya'll mussa forgot :deal


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Ya'll mussa forgot :deal


I think I actually remember all too well, if anything.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy is all too easily reduced to shit in a matter of words by forum posters:
> 
> Green Hopkins, Drained Toney, Worst HW titleholder (Ruiz), PEDs, Glass Jaw.


We need Loudon over here. Weird he never made the move being form the UK (which I thought was odd since most UK guys hate on Roy)


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> We need Loudon over here. Weird he never made the move being form the UK (which I thought was odd since most UK guys hate on Roy)


Loudon wouldve been so happy to see Roy at #1 .


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

I like Roy but he beat Toney because Toney was a fat lazy slob eating chocolate cake a week before the fight. Come on. 

In a rematch I take Toney by TKO. If both guys were in great shape I take Toney by TKO.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Nick said:


> I like Roy but he beat Toney because Toney was a fat lazy slob eating chocolate cake a week before the fight. Come on.
> 
> In a rematch I take Toney by TKO. If both guys were in great shape I take Toney by TKO.


Can talk about Toney here

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?24768-The-10-BEST-Fighters-You-ve-Ever-Seen


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Nick said:


> I like Roy but he beat Toney because Toney was a fat lazy slob eating chocolate cake a week before the fight. Come on.
> 
> In a rematch I take Toney by TKO. If both guys were in great shape I take Toney by TKO.


Hi James :hi:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Hi James :hi:


Why the hell was Toney eating chocolate cakes and indulging in booze and strippers one week prior to an enormous fight at the sparkling new MGM Grand? Cause he's James Toney.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

And he knew he'd lose regardless. So why not? "Cake and eat it too"


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> And he knew he'd lose regardless. So why not? "Cake and eat it too"


He's still one of the Most Skilled I've ever seen. Were talking about Roy's best win here Turbo. Be nice.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> He's still one of the Most Skilled I've ever seen. Were talking about Roy's best win here Turbo. Be nice.


Jones' movement was just too good. Toney's lack of cake eating wasn't going to help him in there. Maybe he'd win a round if he was disciplined.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Jones' movement was just too good. Toney's lack of cake eating wasn't going to help him in there. Maybe he'd win a round if he was disciplined.


Any Elite fighter with exceptional movement/footwork is problems for em. He was fighting perhaps the best ever.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Any Elite fighter with exceptional movement/footwork is problems for em. He was fighting perhaps the best ever.


What did you think of the Nunn fight? I think he'd have given Jones problems and he troubled Toney bad up until the KO. A great comeback KO win.

Nunn looks fucking ace on film.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Any Elite fighter with exceptional movement/footwork is problems for em. He was fighting perhaps the best ever.


Yeah my thoughts exactly. I think Toney eats any come forward guy alive, especially bangers. I'd love to see what would happen between him and Dick Tiger.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> What did you think of the Nunn fight? I think he'd have given Jones problems and he troubled Toney bad up until the KO. A great comeback KO win.
> 
> Nunn looks fucking ace on film.


Gut wrenching and exhilarating. Nunn threw some crisp fuckin combos eh? Blazing too. He was a Top 3 P4P and well favored going into that fight.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Gut wrenching and exhilarating. Nunn threw some crisp fuckin combos eh? Blazing too. He was a Top 3 P4P and well favored going into that fight.


I actually didn't know that. But considering the guys he sparked (Kalambay in 1!!!!) it's not surprising


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I actually didn't know that. But considering the guys he sparked (Kalambay in 1!!!!) it's not surprising


Well now maybe you can rate Toney a bit higher. 

I was pleased to find @SouthPaw and @Dealt_with had a similar appreciation. Toney only gets crapped on today for the most part. He's sort of made his bed, but it's tragic to me that he's already brain damaged.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Well now maybe you can rate Toney a bit higher.
> 
> I was pleased to find @SouthPaw and @Dealt_with had a similar appreciation. Toney only gets crapped on today for the most part. He's sort of made his bed, but it's tragic to me that he's already brain damaged.


I rate Toney quite high he's an absolute G, he sounds awful though :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Can talk about Toney here
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?24768-The-10-BEST-Fighters-You-ve-Ever-Seen





turbotime said:


> Hi James :hi:





Hands of Iron said:


> Why the hell was Toney eating chocolate cakes and indulging in booze and strippers one week prior to an enormous fight at the sparkling new MGM Grand? Cause he's James Toney.





turbotime said:


> And he knew he'd lose regardless. So why not? "Cake and eat it too"





Hands of Iron said:


> He's still one of the Most Skilled I've ever seen. Were talking about Roy's best win here Turbo. Be nice.





turbotime said:


> Jones' movement was just too good. Toney's lack of cake eating wasn't going to help him in there. Maybe he'd win a round if he was disciplined.





Hands of Iron said:


> Any Elite fighter with exceptional movement/footwork is problems for em. He was fighting perhaps the best ever.





MadcapMaxie said:


> Yeah my thoughts exactly. I think Toney eats any come forward guy alive, especially bangers. I'd love to see what would happen between him and Dick Tiger.





turbotime said:


> What did you think of the Nunn fight? I think he'd have given Jones problems and he troubled Toney bad up until the KO. A great comeback KO win.
> 
> Nunn looks fucking ace on film.





Hands of Iron said:


> Gut wrenching and exhilarating. Nunn threw some crisp fuckin combos eh? Blazing too. He was a Top 3 P4P and well favored going into that fight.





turbotime said:


> I actually didn't know that. But considering the guys he sparked (Kalambay in 1!!!!) it's not surprising





Hands of Iron said:


> Well now maybe you can rate Toney a bit higher.
> 
> I was pleased to find @SouthPaw and @Dealt_with had a similar appreciation. Toney only gets crapped on today for the most part. He's sort of made his bed, but it's tragic to me that he's already brain damaged.





turbotime said:


> I rate Toney quite high he's an absolute G, he sounds awful though :-(


He actually got a full page though! :happy


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> He actually got a full page though! :happy


:lol: Toney is probably more famous these days since Seckbach relentlessly swings from his nuts


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Toney was pretty good.
I have a morbid fascination with iron chin guys like Toney........and pitting him up against say a Lewis,Tyson or Prime Foreman.

It sounds sick but i wanna see how much punishment Toney can take prior to the KO.


That being said Peters had a lot of issues with Toney....................but Peters was simply a C Level Fighter with an A LEVEL PUNCH.
]


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

We must ALL RESPECT TONEY'S BOXING SKILLS....but this guy was an asshole outside of the ring and we should not shed tears for his current conditions.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Toney was pretty good.
> I have a morbid fascination with iron chin guys like Toney........and pitting him up against say a Lewis,Tyson or Prime Foreman.
> 
> It sounds sick but i wanna see how much punishment Toney can take prior to the KO.
> ...


I've always been bit of a Lights Out fan, and in the 2nd fight Sam Peter was a fuckin' beast...best I can remember ever seeing him. I was worried for Toney out there :scaredas: :yep


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> I've always been bit of a Lights Out fan, and in the 2nd fight Sam Peter was a fuckin' beast...best I can remember ever seeing him. I was worried for Toney out there :scaredas: :yep


Toney should have mastered the bob and weave.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Toney should have mastered the bob and weave.


Toney vs Jones at HW?


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Thinking Jones beats Hagler and Monzon at Middle based of him being fast and having great athleticism is ridiculous. He's not tested enough at middle to know that.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Toney vs Jones at HW?


Who do you think will win now?

I honestly think Toney will KO him if they fight in December lol.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Toney is such a G. One of the most skilled and talented to ever lace them up. At Middle he was an absoulte H2H beast, probably more skilled than anyone, very good handspeed and granite chin. He should calls it quits though. 

"I'm the king of John Madden too!"


----------



## Royal-T-Bag (Jun 5, 2013)

rjj no doubt


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> We must ALL RESPECT TONEY'S BOXING SKILLS....but this guy was an asshole outside of the ring and we should not shed tears for his current conditions.







How can you not love the guy?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> How can you not love the guy?


Toney should say that to Benn's face.
Benn would have ripped out his dick.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Toney should say that to Benn's face.
> Benn would have ripped out his dick.


In a fight between them Toney would've beaten him. Very badly. Would've likely KO'd him. He would've beaten Eubank too. That's why most hate him he talks shit but he can back it up.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Toney is such a G. One of the most skilled and talented to ever lace them up. At Middle he was an absoulte H2H beast, probably more skilled than anyone, very good handspeed and granite chin. He should calls it quits though.
> 
> "I'm the king of John Madden too!"


 :yep

In his 160-168 years he was a real credit to the sport if you ask me. He looked every bit the hyper conditioned freak, possessed jaw dropping ability in the pocket, fighting off the ropes, ATG shoulder roll and head-and-upper body movement, pin-point counters; and you also mentioned his hand speed and chin.

Win, lose or draw you can't question his opposition during the period either: Michael Nunn (36-0) the Lineal MW Champ and Top 3 P4P (Toney was a 20-1 underdog), Mike McCallum x2 (42-1) simply one of the best ever H2H in his own right and #1 rated MW, Reggie Johnson (28-1) a perrenial Top 5 contender in a talented era, Iran Barkley (30-7) who he put a masterclass on and of course prime Roy Jones (26-0) who although he badly lost to and probably could've prepared a lot better for -- at least fought him.

Everyone should probably have another look at the first McCallum bout at least. It was ruled a draw and he got the decision in fight II but I actually thought the first was the clearer one 115-113 and one of the greatest displays of science you'll ever see from both men. Sorry for that @PityTheFool


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :yep
> 
> In his 160-168 years he was a real credit to the sport if you ask me. He looked every bit the hyper conditioned freak, possessed jaw dropping ability in the pocket, fighting off the ropes, ATG shoulder roll and head-and-upper body movement, pin-point counters; and you also mentioned his hand speed and chin.
> 
> ...


Nah,you're cool mate.I thought JT did just enough in the first but Mike deserved the second.

"I forgive you Skyler"


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Toney is on Ringside!!!!
Watching it right now


----------



## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

i have to go with bernard hopkins. he would give anyone from any era a run for their money at middleweight. for me, when hopkins fought trinidad he was in his prime. he has good defense and a very solid beard.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Man that left hook he landed on Nunn was magnificent.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I'd also have say that I consider Prime Nunn and Mike McCallum both more formidable fighters than anybody on Hagler, Monzon or Robinson's MW ledgers barring Hearns, who Manny Steward (RIP) weaseled away from McCallum when both were premiere 154lbers

@turbotime @SJS20 want to dispute? :conf


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

JT's trembling knee is a bit of a worry though.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'd also have say that I consider Prime Nunn and Mike McCallum both more formidable fighters than anybody on Hagler, Monzon or Robinson's MW ledgers barring Hearns, who Manny Steward (RIP) weaseled away from McCallum when both were premiere 154lbers
> 
> @turbotime @SJS20 want to dispute? :conf


No way. I told you that Nunn looks spectacular on film


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'd also have say that I consider Prime Nunn and Mike McCallum both more formidable fighters than anybody on Hagler, Monzon or Robinson's MW ledgers barring Hearns, who Manny Steward (RIP) weaseled away from McCallum when both were premiere 154lbers
> 
> @turbotime @SJS20 want to dispute? :conf


Manny had seen plenty of Mike first hand to know that he would present huge,huge problems for Tommy.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Man that left hook he landed on Nunn was magnificent.


He was landing it previously but Nunn started getting sloppy and JT just zero'd in on the killshot and it landed where it had numerous times before. Nunn's low right did him no favors (thinking he was homefree) and James was amazing at letting his instincts lead him to punches for the finish.


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> In a fight between them Toney would've beaten him. Very badly. Would've likely KO'd him. He would've beaten Eubank too. That's why most hate him he talks shit but he can back it up.


I'd give Eubank a better chance against Toney than Benn.


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

turbotime said:


> What did you think of the Nunn fight? I think he'd have given Jones problems and he troubled Toney bad up until the KO. A great comeback KO win.
> 
> Nunn looks fucking ace on film.


Nunn could have and should have had a better career than he did. He was really something for a while. To be perfectly frank, he made Toney look positively pedestrian at times in their fight. What exactly happened to Michael I'll never know ( I heard drink and drugs were involved) but the kid was a special talent for a while.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

fists of fury said:


> Nunn could have and should have had a better career than he did. He was really something for a while. To be perfectly frank, he made Toney look positively pedestrian at times in their fight. What exactly happened to Michael I'll never know ( I heard drink and drugs were involved) but the kid was a special talent for a while.


James was relatively unknown at the time, no? A fucking 20-1 underdog really says it all about Nunn at the time I'd say as well. And he lived up to that for much of their fight.


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Monzon I envision will catch Roy on the counters, he's very good at that.


I can't see it, not in a month of Sundays. He just didn't have the hand speed to counter Jones in a sustained manner.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

fists of fury said:


> I can't see it, not in a month of Sundays. He just didn't have the hand speed to counter Jones in a sustained manner.


Which is why I think it's a 50:50 fight, nevertheless I feel that Monzon could actually catch him on the counter because of his ability to time..so later on in the fight Monzon would start to do better. Timing was the reason why Monzon never had to pay the consequences for his unimpressive speed.


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> James was relatively unknown at the time, no? A fucking 20-1 underdog really says it all about Nunn at the time I'd say as well. And he lived up to that for much of their fight.


Yeah he was pretty much unknown. It's funny because a friend of mine was a HUGE Nunn fan, but I said to him I see signs of Nunn slipping, and that soon someone was going to get him. Lo and behold, that very night Toney knocks him out. I owe James a debt of gratitude for that one, because he made me look like a sage. :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

fists of fury said:


> I'd give Eubank a better chance against Toney than Benn.


I'd give Benn zero chance against James.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Which is why I think it's a 50:50 fight, nevertheless I feel that Monzon could actually catch him on the counter because of his ability to time..so later on in the fight Monzon would start to do better. Timing was the reason why Monzon never had to pay the consequences for his unimpressive speed.


it'd look like Roy Jones vs Reggie Johnson.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> it'd look like Roy Jones vs Reggie Johnson.


:huh


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> :huh


Sorry, what fight is 50/50? Jones/Monzon?

Cause No.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> No way. I told you that Nunn looks spectacular on film


Yeah, you did. :smile


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah, you did. :smile


Them SP combos :err


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

The Great Defensive Specialist James Toney. Conqueror of Benn and Eubank(verbally), destroyer of Jim Grey, slick master of slick blackness, constant P4P champion, blood and guts reincarnated against Jirov, CEO of shoulder Roll Corp, and all around a brash,cocky,bling bling skilled, ONCE IN A GENERATION BAD ASS MOTHERFUCKER




Will be fighting on the undercard of British Heavyweight Anthony Joshua's 3rd fight in a 3 rounder.


----------



## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

I rolling with robinson


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm stealing this post from ESB.

The poster is someone like Magna. These guys are mostly a level higher than the Classic Posters who never actually boxed.

"
No. That's flat out bullshit. Just because he was a balanced fighter doesn't mean he had great (or even "very, very good") footwork. It was sound in terms of placement, but he lacked any kind of versatility with it. Sure, he was able to turn and play the angles on Barkley, but he isn't pulling those moves often on any educated fighter. 

Nor is he out-boxing many educated boxers from the outside, least of all the movers. Nunn didn't have great technical footwork either, but you saw how Toney struggled on the front foot in that fight. Hell, you saw how shit his stalking skills were when he faced Jones. Couldn't even attempt to cut off the ring. Obviously Jones played a part in that, but even Toney's efforts were pathetic. 

So no, I'm sorry, but having "very, very good footwork" by any meaningful standard involves more than being able to balance on a pivot to gain leverage for your shifts and punches.'




Toney gets overrated for a few simple reasons that if people stop and think about it. You guys will realize I'm right. He's African-American(yes I'm not a racist and people who know me will realize I hate boxers of ALL NATIONALITIES AND RACES. I don't discriminate my hate. He's brash and talk funny. He displays a level of confidence(deluded or not) that many admire... but MOST IMPORTANTLY of all:


Toney belongs in that special category of boxers I like to call ' MYSS Boxers'

MYSS=Make you sound smart.
Talking and breaking down Toney's imagined skill set is in many ways similar to breaking down Benitez's and Whitaker's. It sounds more dazzling and the words form a higher level of 'perceived' knowledge than saying talking about Lennox's right hand or Tyson's head movement.

You can use Classical Boxing terms like ' 'Angles' and 'Slips' 'Footwork' 'Interior/Exterior' and 'masterful' to name a few when describing fighters like Toney.


The truth of the matter is:
JAMES TONEY was a SPECIAL talent that ultimately used his God Blessed Granite Chin to achieve far more than what he could have. He lasted against Jirov because of his chin. He lasted against Peters BECAUSE OF HIS CHIN. You give James Toney a Roy Jones chin or a Wladimir chin BUT LET HIM KEEP HIS SKILL SET? He would have been viciously stopped numerous times. The Chin was his last and best line of defense and that's all there is to it.

I don't know how to talk about his Slick Foot work or his triple Black Dick shoulder roll behind the ear donkey punch semen combo.
I only know that he was a very good fighter .. perhaps great.. that struggled numerous times in his career at 160-175, was hit a LOT more than people like to admit, and as a result is now brain damaged and fighting on the fucking under card of a British Kid for a 2000$ paycheck.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

:lol:

Did you get it all out of your system, Felix?


----------



## mick557 (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I'm stealing this post from ESB.
> 
> The poster is someone like Magna. These guys are mostly a level higher than the Classic Posters who never actually boxed.
> 
> ...


:lol:


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Whos behind the curtain


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Them SP combos :err


FFS :rofl :blood


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I'm stealing this post from ESB.
> 
> The poster is someone like Magna. These guys are mostly a level higher than the Classic Posters who never actually boxed.
> 
> ...


I kinda understand what you're saying here but what you're saying is stupid. You cannot take away physical gifts because that IMO more so than skill/quality is what ultimately separates a lot of the greatest fighters from the simply very good. What would Ali's record look like without his granite chin? What would Foreman's look like without his power? What would Jones' look like without his speed? etc. etc. Also having a granite chin doesn't win you fights although it certainly keeps you in them. Toney would never beat a guy like Nunn or McCallum simply by being able to take their shots. No way Jose.


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## allenko1 (Jun 27, 2012)

Toney punch got him by Nunn. so if he was a pillow puncher he wouldn't have won that...


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I'd give Benn zero chance against James.


Well then you're massively under-rating Benn or over-rating Toney. Toney would probably be a slim favourite with me but to give Benn " zero chance " is disresecting a great fighter. Two time/weight champion, 12 WBC defences, Benn was the real deal.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

@Hands of Iron and others.

TurboTime is too far gone as a Roy Fan for me to try to convince and I'm fine with that. Roy Jones Jr was special but I want others to hear me out.

I have stressed this numerous times...

First off COULD ROY have dominated all the punchers/pressure fighters of his era? There is a very good chance he could have.
But the fact remain that each one of these top fighters that he did not fight brought forth an interesting set of skills that made a RJJ Match up intriguing.

Is Roy better than Benn? Of course. Is it that far fetched to say Benn's pressure would have gotten him a few good punches in? Of course not. Benn was a legit champion, had the heart of a giant, and a very good offensive style. He would never had stopped coming.

Is Roy better than Dariuz? Of course. Is it that far fetched to say Dariuz's size, skills, and power would have at least troubled Roy for a few rounds? Of cousre not. Dariuz was a big LHW with power,jab,movement, and much like Benn would never had stopped with the pressure.

Is Roy better than Eubank? Of course. Is it that far fetched to say that Eubank's chin, patience, counter punching, and awkwardness might have let to a few tense moments for Jones? Of course not.

Is Roy better than Mccellan? Of course. Is it that far fetched to say that Mccellan's power and pressure might have gotten Jones or at least stunned him? Of course not.

The fact remain:
Benn,Eubank,Daruiz,Mccellan,Jackson,Nunn,and Collins were good/very good fighters. They all had power and various sets of offensive skills that could have troubled Roy.

Hopkins and Toney ARE BETTER than the fighters listed above.. but their offense wasn't. It really wasn't. Maybe Toney's offense was better IN spots and spurts but overall they didn't have the power and pressure of the Jacksons, Benns, and Mccellans..

To beat Roy you don't need a great defense, you definitely don't need the shoulder rolls. You just need to put forth the offense and every fighter Roy somehow didn't fight could have done exactly that.

And yes I know

Y'all musta forgot
Roy KO1 Benn Nunn Eubank Jackson Mccellan Dariuz 
Y'all musta forgot
Roy wouldn't even have lost a Round easy work
Lennox Lewis easy work too..


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Yeah, I wish and think he should've fought them too Felix. I'm not his biggest FAN though really; really at all -- I just recognize him. I don't even know most of the specifics on why some of those didn't happen as in the cases of other fighters because I not on it like that as far as Roy goes.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Felix makes a lot of points about Roy that are true and remind me of the criticisms towards Mayweather's timing of opponents. Both guys would be favorites in every matchup possible, but there are some intriguing questions that remain unanswered.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

There have been some truly unholy pissing matches over it too. Perhaps not on Floyd's level, but pretty long and intense. I don't have time for all that mumbo jumbo shit unless I'm very, very interested.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The man behind the curtain is Randy Turpin, isn't it?


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> @Hands of Iron and others.
> 
> TurboTime is too far gone as a Roy Fan for me to try to convince and I'm fine with that. Roy Jones Jr was special but I want others to hear me out.
> 
> ...


Very good points


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Thanks for leaving me be Felix


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

"Too far gone" :lol: Lunatic fan boi! :ibutt


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

:lol:


T a G


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :lol:
> 
> T a G


Roy got almosr NIL love in @FelixTrinidad Resume thread. If he had been on top of the thing, I could probably better understand the dislike. I actually like Roy's best wins.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy got almosr NIL love in @FelixTrinidad Resume thread. If he had been on top of the thing, I could probably better understand the dislike*. I actually like Roy's best wins.*


Thats because you know WTF youre talking about.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Thats because you know WTF youre talking about.


I just dont really buy the Hopkins green stuff all that much. How many fights Hops lose in the decade-plus following it? Dude, beating a division's successor is always good. Always. Usually superior to beating "former champs" by a good distance.

Toney was fucking drained but fuk, its the #2 P4P he beat and he didnt just beat him. ANY titleholder at Heavyweight he beat wouldve been impressive based on where he started.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I just dont really buy the Hopkins green stuff all that much. How many fights Hops lose in the decade-plus following it? Dude, beating a division's successor is always good. Always. Usually superior to beating "former champs" by a good distance.
> 
> Toney was fucking drained but fuk, its the #2 P4P he beat and he didnt just beat him. ANY titleholder at Heavyweight he beat wouldve been impressive based on where he started.


Jones was drained too :deal


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Jones was drained too :deal


Toney was always drained. :lol:

Barkley started this fight in the most idiotic way imaginable :rofl






"I am a canvas. Paint on me."


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

James ooooo I was undertrained but I still won Toney hey yeah he landed some shots and I lost some rounds but look at my chin oooo you cant rack this egghead im so tough oooooo


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> *I just dont really buy the Hopkins green stuff all that much.* How many fights Hops lose in the decade-plus following it? Dude, beating a division's successor is always good. Always. Usually superior to beating "former champs" by a good distance.
> 
> Toney was fucking drained but fuk, its the #2 P4P he beat and he didnt just beat him. ANY titleholder at Heavyweight he beat wouldve been impressive based on where he started.


Roy beating Hopkins was a very good win. Although we must put it into perspective.

Young Roy beat Young Bernard. The difference is a lot of the gifts and attributes Roy Jones Jr had in his prime was already on display during his younger days. He relied on his speed,athleticism, and natural abilities to dominate his opponents. Roy did develop some underrated technical skills later on and I always thought he was a underrated boxer. The fact remain that his bread and butter was already there against Hopkins back when they first fought as youngsters.

Bernard Hopkins is of a different type in that his improvements were significant leading up to what was his MW Peak during the late 90's and early 2000's. He had his share of athleticism against Roy, he had his power and his stamina. The raw skills was already on display, but he lacked the ring generalship, brilliant defense, adaptability, and creativity that was so on display during his actual peak. His counters and traps that so dominated the likes of Trinidad and numerous others was not on display against Roy.. Not because Roy was just so much better but because all these attributes of Bernards did not even exist at the time.
I'm not saying that if they had existed when they fought, the outcome would have been different.. I'm simply pointing out that Prime Roy and the Roy who fought Bernard had lots of similarities and showed lots of the same key attributes. Prime Bernard and the Bernard who fought Roy was night and day. We must keep that in mind as we look back.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)




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## allenko1 (Jun 27, 2012)

in fairness to the "blade", he wasn't even gonna beat Toney. no matter how he started the fight...


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

allenko1 said:


> in fairness to the "blade", he wasn't even gonna beat Toney. no matter how he started the fight...


No, but it makes it more amusing.
@FelixTrinidad Nobody can disagree with that, because its all factual. All I'm saying is that it sways toward being a great win far more than it does as just an "OK" variety. Hopkins had his physical prime, was tech and fundamentally sound but not at his personal best yet. I'll still take that over wins over guys who are flat out past it, 'mean?


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Stone Rose said:


> Well then you're massively under-rating Benn or over-rating Toney. Toney would probably be a slim favourite with me but to give Benn " zero chance " is disresecting a great fighter. Two time/weight champion, 12 WBC defences, Benn was the real deal.


Styles wise I wouldn't give Benn much chance and I wouldn't give him a punchers chance. The only thing I could see is a dec by outworking Toney. Benn's conditioning was quite ridiculous but I have it on good authority that the Middleweight Toney was an absolute gym rat himself. Then again Toney had some less than stellar performances against Tiberi for example. If they fought 10 times Benn would win at least one. Thing is though skill wise Benn was quite limited and styles wise Toney loved guys who came right at him. It would be a tough ask of Benn.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Styles wise I wouldn't give Benn much chance and I wouldn't give him a punchers chance. The only thing I could see is a dec by outworking Toney. Benn's conditioning was quite ridiculous but I have it on good authority that the Middleweight Toney was an absolute gym rat himself. Then again Toney had some less than stellar performances against Tiberi for example. If they fought 10 times Benn would win at least one. Thing is though skill wise Benn was quite limited and styles wise Toney loved guys who came right at him. It would be a tough ask of Benn.


Nice post. We have to be all of two of his five fans on here or ESB Maxie. :lol: Some people weren't even aware I liked him, but I can't do Toney on Classic/Historical sections, I just can't. Immense blinders and short sells, it's not worth the time to me.


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Monzon


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'll take James Toney.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

SJS20 said:


> I'll take James Toney.


I've always loved you.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I've always loved you.


In the last few days, I've watched him fight

Barkley
Ruiz
Holyfield
Bodysnatcher 1 and 2

If you have to pick a man to fight for you, then you want a guy that you know won't get caught cold, can box AND fight inside.

The Ruiz fight is actually a very under-rated fight.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

SJS20 said:


> In the last few days, I've watched him fight
> 
> Barkley
> Ruiz
> ...


Yeah, I've been meaning to go on a mini-marathon of sorts.

I didn't want to rush you or anything, but I'd be fascinated if you went and posted your top 10 in my thread :deal :yep No need to worry about rose tints, that shit is out the window. Bernard Almost made my cut when it really comes down to it. I'm surprised you actually didnt choose him here.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah, I've been meaning to go on a mini-marathon of sorts.
> 
> I didn't want to rush you or anything, but I'd be fascinated if you went and posted your top 10 in my thread :deal :yep No need to worry about rose tints, that shit is out the window. Bernard Almost made my cut when it really comes down to it. I'm surprised you actually didnt choose him here.


I like the Toney HW fights because all physical advantages are out the window, and it's not like he can bounce in and out on his toes. You just see how much the man knows about fighting.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> The Ruiz fight is actually a very under-rated fight.


do you really think that? :-(

I really, really don't like that fight, the highlight of the fight is watching Toney counter ruiz wit hthe right hand over the top, but outside of that it is a very boring fight.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> do you really think that? :-(
> 
> I really, really don't like that fight, the highlight of the fight is watching Toney counter ruiz wit hthe right hand over the top, but outside of that it is a very boring fight.


Yeah, I really think that.

I didn't say it's Hagler - Hearns or Chavez vs Taylor. I said it's under-rated.

Toney fights a man much bigger than him, lands huge punches and takes a few as well. Ruiz ups his usual activity and forces Toney to respond. Both show a degree of craft and land plenty of eye catching punches.

Not a classic, but not a stinker.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> Yeah, I really think that.
> 
> I didn't say it's Hagler - Hearns or Chavez vs Taylor. I said it's under-rated.
> 
> ...


I like Toney-Rahman I more because at least Rahman has a more appealing style, and it has alot more action.. like i said the only good thing about the fight is watching toney counter with his right hand.. toney made that fight, ruiz destroyed it.


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## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> @Hands of Iron and others.
> 
> TurboTime is too far gone as a Roy Fan for me to try to convince and I'm fine with that. Roy Jones Jr was special but I want others to hear me out.
> 
> ...


Good post overall.

Roy had otherworldly gifts, but in fairness the Reluctant Roy tag was well-deserved, especially once he hit 175. There were a lot of good matchups that could have been made at 168 for Roy, but he didn't take them. It's for this reason that despite my being a fan of his talents, I was never really a fan of the fighter, if that makes sense.

One thing I will say though, is that Roy had a way of shutting down a fighter's offense through his speed and unorthodox style. I don't think the aggressive fighters would have posed much trouble to him, barring a lucky punch.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

:lol:

Yeah, he was basically untouchable with his speed, reflexes and movement.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Difference between Pea and Roy is Roy's fight changing power.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Difference between Pea and Roy is Roy's fight changing power.


Did MGS scare you out of the Top 10 thread? :-( SJS is there now


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Difference between Pea and Roy is Roy's fight changing power.


Pea had an ATG Jab. 

Actually, the best jab ever in lightweight history on film for my money. But I have a lot of film to watch. I'll still say that though just because.

EDIT: @McGrain


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Did MGS scare you out of the Top 10 thread? :-( SJS is there now


Mcgrain has him #2 and you have him #1 who cares about MGS who has Ali one :lol:


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Difference between Pea and Roy is Roy's fight changing power.


i think pea was more of a defensive specialist than Roy was

and pea had the better jab


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Mcgrain has him #2 and you have him #1 who cares about MGS who has Ali one :lol:


 @McGrain has so much fucking pull. :rofl :lol:

"yeah, but McGrain says..."

/End Thread


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @McGrain has so much fucking pull. :rofl :lol:
> 
> "yeah, but McGrain says..."
> 
> /End Thread


:lol: Plus he's seen em all :deal


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Difference between Pea and Roy is Roy's fight changing power.


You learn alot about both of them, by watching Jones vs Tarver 1, and Pea vs Trinidad


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> You learn alot about both of them, by watching Jones vs Tarver 1, and Pea vs Trinidad


Tito broke Pea's jaw really early iirc amazing he lasted the distance.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> In the last few days, I've watched him fight
> 
> Barkley
> Ruiz
> ...


Be fair,McCallum deserved to nick the second one.

And remember,you better get "that guy" to call me!


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Be fair,McCallum deserved to nick the second one.
> 
> And remember,you better get "that guy" to call me!


:ibutt

I want to ask about the Wilfred B fight, because it's often over shadowed by the rest of the fab four, and I also want to ask about sparring with a young Roy Jones...


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Be fair,McCallum deserved to nick the second one.
> 
> And remember,you better get "that guy" to call me!


Toney won the first 115-113. :yep I'd probably have to give you the second though, even with the point deduction.

You arent a boxing fan if you dont treasure these though.



turbotime said:


> Tito broke Pea's jaw really early iirc amazing he lasted the distance.


Little shit was Nails underneath the flashy exterior. Such a painful fight to watch.


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## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

Jones or Whitaker is tough to call. Roy's power is the most obvious difference, but as Hands said, that little fucker _was_ nails.

Put Roy up against the top punchers of his weight range and, even against the ones I favor him over, I'd always be worried of him getting stopped. Pea? Wouldn't be worried at all.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> fuck it, give me Roy Jones Jr





turbotime said:


> Easy money :deal





~Cellzki~ said:


> :deal
> 
> #unbeatable


This is all well and probably true, but I've gotta say his 'boxing' style is a fuckin hideous abomination. Technical shithouse. Unwatchable without those reflexes and speed, really.

:smug

#BitterandBuzzing


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> This is all well and probably true, but I've gotta say his 'boxing' style is a fuckin hideous abomination. Technical shithouse. Unwatchable without those reflexes and speed, really.
> 
> :smug
> 
> #BitterandBuzzing


as a guy who studies other boxers and trains, I must say I hate watching Roy. Too many bad tendecies :smile


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> as a guy who studies other boxers and trains, I must say I hate watching Roy. Too many bad tendecies :smile


Yeah, and I'm not saying he wasn't skilled or anything like that, but he was a mutation of the science. Guys like Floyd or Toney define that, they are 'The Real' -- and for me are much, much more aesthetically pleasing to watch. Whitaker got away with a lot of bullshit too, but not to that degree.


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## DaveyBoyEssexUK (Jun 8, 2013)

Michael Watson


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

DaveyBoyEssexUK said:


> Michael Watson


What a guy


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> This is all well and probably true, but I've gotta say his 'boxing' style is a fuckin hideous abomination. Technical shithouse. Unwatchable without those reflexes and speed, really.
> 
> :smug
> 
> #BitterandBuzzing





bballchump11 said:


> as a guy who studies other boxers and trains, I must say I hate watching Roy. Too many bad tendecies :smile


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

That's really hard for MW at HW it would be easy and so it's at several other weight divisions but not at MW. I could chose Hagler and I wouldn't be sure about what would happen if Monson or Leonard stand behind the curtain. I could chose Hearns and Hagler or Leonard could stand behind the curtain. I could chose Monson and I'm not sure how he would do against Hagler, leonard and Hearns. I could chose Robinson but to be honest I don't know how the oldschool fighters would do against modern fighters and under modern rules and even so Hagler, SRL and Hearns are tough for anyone. I could chose RJJ despite him never fighting an someone even close to the level of the big 4 or Robinson or that kind at MW


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> That's really hard for MW at HW it would be easy and so it's at several other weight divisions but not at MW. I could chose Hagler and I wouldn't be sure about what would happen if Monson or Leonard stand behind the curtain. I could chose Hearns and Hagler or Leonard could stand behind the curtain. I could chose Monson and I'm not sure how he would do against Hagler, leonard and Hearns. I could chose Robinson but to be honest I don't know how the oldschool fighters would do against modern fighters and under modern rules and even so Hagler, SRL and Hearns are tough for anyone. I could chose RJJ despite him never fighting an someone even close to the level of the big 4 or Robinson or that kind at MW


How will Heavyweight be easy? That make no sense. It's actually harder than MW.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> How will Heavyweight be easy? That make no sense. It's actually harder than MW.


Lennox Lewis has without a doubt the highest chance in % of beating every HW champ of course he could lose and there are many tough matchups for him but it's much harder at MW


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## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why the hell was Toney eating chocolate cakes and indulging in booze and strippers one week prior to an enormous fight at the sparkling new MGM Grand? Cause he's James Toney.


That's true. A loss is a loss but my only point being if he was top shape I would take JT to win. There was some crazy stories about Toney. One of his handlers caught him with handfuls of chocolates like a day before a big fight. Tons of stories like that about him.


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## The Comedian (Jul 24, 2012)

Monzon. Easy choice.


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## NoMas (Jun 7, 2012)

Bob Fitzsimmons needs a mention, although he obviously campaigned at LH and HW aswell as Middleweight...


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

I can't wait to reveal my hidden champion. 

Here's the 1st clue: He's Black.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I can't wait to reveal my hidden champion.
> 
> Here's the 1st clue: He's Black.


If you say Leonard I will implode.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

PivotPunch said:


> Lennox Lewis has without a doubt the highest chance in % of beating every HW champ of course he could lose and there are many tough matchups for him but it's much harder at MW


Dude got beaten by two guys who were basically fringe contenders. No. Ali is the H2H king.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

No Mas said:


>


The fuck you looking at, Sammy?


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> *Dude got beaten by two guys who were basically fringe contenders.* No. Ali is the H2H king.


oh god..........no please no.

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SAID THAT...............OH Great.and this thread was having such a great discussion too.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> oh god..........no please no.
> 
> YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SAID THAT...............OH Great.and this thread was having such a great discussion too.


Probably being harsh but they were two historically unimportant fighters. Biggest victory between them is an old, fat Holmes. Other than that...Maskaev and Sanders.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Probably being harsh but they were two historically unimportant fighters. Biggest victory between them is an old, fat Holmes. Other than that...Maskaev and Sanders.


Agreed... but I thought in fantasy H2H we only take the best versions of each fighter.
I mean we can say Ali 'went life and death' against Henry Cooper... but we won't because that wasn't a prime Ali.. not quite there yet.

We never use the Douglas example for Tyson etc............ or Sanders for Wlad etc.

Anyways.. Prime Ali beats Prime Lewis.. no argument there.

MW have a lot more options come to think of it.. that's why I picked the weight class. I can't wait till I reveal my champion.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Agreed... but I thought in fantasy H2H we only take the best versions of each fighter.
> I mean we can say Ali 'went life and death' against Henry Cooper... but we won't because that wasn't a prime Ali.. not quite there yet.
> 
> We never use the Douglas example for Tyson etc............ or Sanders for Wlad etc.
> ...


I agree.

Also Ali seriously didn't go life and death with Cooper he coasted for 4 rounds because he told the press he'd take him in the fifth. As soon as the 5th started he busted him up real bad.

Give another hint about your champion :smile


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## Vino Veritas (May 17, 2013)

Hagler or Greb.


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## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

I wonder if that guy behind the curtain isn't somone like Hopkins or Briscoe?


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## NoMas (Jun 7, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> The fuck you looking at, Sammy?


haha james toney v langford at light heavy would of been a great fight :deal

i see you though


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

The results are in.

And FelixTrinidad's MiddleWeight Champion which YOUR Champion must defeat in order to save your life is..................

Prime Felix Sturm(and yes he's not Black.. I lied)


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

well Hagler beats this guy easy lol

he would always be my pick against anyone though because of how well rounded his skillset was


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> *well Hagler beats this guy easy lol*
> 
> he would always be my pick against anyone though because of how well rounded his skillset was


I disagree. Sturm in his Prime had an ATG Jab(certainly better than Hagler's) an granite chin, physical strength and a very well rounded set of skills. He's also much bigger than Hagler. I'm not saying Sturm will beat Hagler but imo it's a 50/50 fight.

You saw Sturm in his prime right? RING MAGAZINE got him as a top 10 MW all time.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> The results are in.
> 
> And FelixTrinidad's MiddleWeight Champion which YOUR Champion must defeat in order to save your life is..................
> 
> Prime Felix Sturm(and yes he's not Black.. I lied)


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Well Monzon beats him, glad my life is saved :cheers


----------

