# Fighters who had overrated power.



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

We always talk about overrated, underrated, fighters........but regarding power, what are your examples of huys that were known as punchers but were a bit overrated in that aspect in your opinion.

Ron Lyle for example, who was a pretty good fighter, we know, and could stop many people.....but it seems like he was not able to stop many elite heavyweights, right ? At least not like other guys..... He fought Bonavena, Quarry...he fought Peralta who was small, former lighheavy and all and couldn´t stop them.....And yet, Lyle is always mentioned as a powerful puncher, which he was, but in comparison with the elite punchers, no. SAme with Cleveland Williams, always referred as a big puncher.....
Maybe I´m being too harsh, I don´t know.....I´m sure some here thought about that before, but I don´t have any other examples, perhaps Valero is another one, plenty of times people mentioned him as a powerful puncher and he really wasn´t, as far 1 punch power goes anyway (Pitalua KO comes to mind though)......

Examples of this ?


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## Bil1234 (Jun 11, 2013)

Vic said:


> We always talk about overrated, underrated, fighters........but regarding power, what are your examples of huys that were known as punchers but were a bit overrated in that aspect in your opinion.
> 
> Ron Lyle for example, who was a pretty good fighter, we know, and could stop many people.....but it seems like he was not able to stop many elite heavyweights, right ? At least not like other guys..... He fought Bonavena, Quarry...he fought Peralta who was small, former lighheavy and all and couldn´t stop them.....And yet, Lyle is always mentioned as a powerful puncher, which he was, but in comparison with the elite punchers, no. SAme with Cleveland Williams, always referred as a big puncher.....
> Maybe I´m being too harsh, I don´t know.....I´m sure some here thought about that before, but I don´t have any other examples, perhaps Valero is another one, plenty of times people mentioned him as a powerful puncher and he really wasn´t, as far 1 punch power goes anyway (Pitalua KO comes to mind though)......
> ...


A lot of times the power isn't the problem with some fighters being unable to stop other fighters, it's the punch delivery or ability to consistently land the needed punches. Very, very few fighters had genuine 1 punch KO power (like Julian Jackson or Rocky Marciano) and most need to consistently land their bombs, even guys like George Foreman and Earnie Shavers.

As far as fighters with overrated power, in recent times I think Lucas Matthyse's power was getting exaggerated.


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Bil1234 said:


> A lot of times the power isn't the problem with some fighters being unable to stop other fighters, it's the punch delivery or ability to consistently land the needed punches. Very, very few fighters had genuine 1 punch KO power (like Julian Jackson or Rocky Marciano) and most need to consistently land their bombs, even guys like George Foreman and Earnie Shavers.
> 
> As far as fighters with overrated power, in recent times I think Lucas Matthyse's power was getting exaggerated.


I agree 100%! 
I disagree about Matthysse though, when you see those two lefts that he landed in Peterson, I see that the dude is a monstrous puncher IMHO. 
Edit- actually, you are right too, a stoppage like that against_ Peterson_ (pretty good fighter but not exactly elite IMO, not exatcly a durable one either) is not a big proof or something I guess.....


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Roberto Duran. In most of his lightweight title fight KO's he had to work on his opponents all night long to take them out.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Vic said:


> We always talk about overrated, underrated, fighters........but regarding power, what are your examples of huys that were known as punchers but were a bit overrated in that aspect in your opinion.
> 
> Ron Lyle for example, who was a pretty good fighter, we know, and could stop many people.....but it seems like he was not able to stop many elite heavyweights, right ? At least not like other guys..... He fought Bonavena, Quarry...he fought Peralta who was small, former lighheavy and all and couldn´t stop them.....And yet, Lyle is always mentioned as a powerful puncher, which he was, but in comparison with the elite punchers, no. SAme with Cleveland Williams, always referred as a big puncher.....
> Maybe I´m being too harsh, I don´t know.....I´m sure some here thought about that before, but I don´t have any other examples, perhaps Valero is another one, plenty of times people mentioned him as a powerful puncher and he really wasn´t, as far 1 punch power goes anyway (Pitalua KO comes to mind though)......
> ...


Agree with Cleveland Williams, I'm going against George foreman who said Cleveland was the hardest puncher he faced (must have faced him in sparring:huh ) 
Did Cleveland ever beat a contender? Maybe I'm missing something, nothing much from his record screams historic punching power.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Bil1234 said:


> A lot of times the power isn't the problem with some fighters being unable to stop other fighters, it's the punch delivery or ability to consistently land the needed punches. Very, very few fighters had genuine 1 punch KO power (like Julian Jackson or Rocky Marciano) and most need to consistently land their bombs, even guys like George Foreman and Earnie Shavers.


Couldnt you argue that Marciano had to land a high volume of punches to get the job done as well? Most of his stoppages were via accumulation and not 1 punch knockouts.



Mr. Brain said:


> Agree with Cleveland Williams, I'm going against George foreman who said Cleveland was the hardest puncher he faced (must have faced him in sparring:huh )
> Did Cleveland ever beat a contender? Maybe I'm missing something, nothing much from his record screams historic punching power.


Yeah, he drew with Machen (most felt Williams took the W, and yeah I know that doesnt necessarily show his power but you asked if he ever beat anyone), stopped Ernie Terrell and should've been granted a decison over him as well.

Williams may not have been the best fighter ever, or even the best contender of his era,but he certainly deserves a nod for his power. his personal issues caused a lot of setbacks and distractions.


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## Sweet Pea (Jun 22, 2013)

Underrated punchers is the better thread to make. I always enjoy looking up fighters I'm not too clued in on. That's where Bill Jincock comes in with his favorite Peruvian boxers from the 60's. 

As for overrated, I don't think I can say anything people don't already know. If I said Wilfredo Gomez, it's old news to most on this forum, even if people elsewhere wouldn't know where I was coming from.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Vic said:


> We always talk about overrated, underrated, fighters........but regarding power, what are your examples of huys that were known as punchers but were a bit overrated in that aspect in your opinion.
> 
> Ron Lyle for example, who was a pretty good fighter, we know, and could stop many people.....but it seems like he was not able to stop many elite heavyweights, right ? At least not like other guys..... He fought Bonavena, Quarry...he fought Peralta who was small, former lighheavy and all and couldn´t stop them.....And yet, Lyle is always mentioned as a powerful puncher, which he was, but in comparison with the elite punchers, no. SAme with Cleveland Williams, always referred as a big puncher.....
> Maybe I´m being too harsh, I don´t know.....I´m sure some here thought about that before, but I don´t have any other examples, perhaps Valero is another one, plenty of times people mentioned him as a powerful puncher and he really wasn´t, as far 1 punch power goes anyway (Pitalua KO comes to mind though)......
> ...


Well Bonavena and Quarry were some tough cookies to crack, and Foreman couldnt stop Peralta 
in the first fight and only got him in the tenth the next time they fought. Although when i think of 
Lyle i do think moderate to good puncher with good boxing skill I don't really think puncher but he 
could crack some.

I think Williams was a big puncher with speed but didn't have enough else (skill wise) to use his
power to its highest potential. Foreman rated him with Cooney etc so i'd say he was an elite puncher.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Bil1234 said:


> I think Lucas Matthyse's power was getting exaggerated.


Matthysse's skills were more overrated than his power.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Edwin Valero. Certainly one of the worst finishers I've ever seen as well.


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## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

There's a big difference between huge power, and the ability to DELIVER that huge power


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Earnie Shavers and Rocky Marciano

Pacman also


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

dyna said:


> Earnie Shavers and Rocky Marciano
> 
> Pacman also


I don't understand why so many say Shavers in particular it's like the go-to name for overrated power. Bar Curtis Sheppard there is nobody else who is that consistently ranked the hardest puncher by all who faced him. For those who say that most of those boxers just say his name because they beat him I recall back at ESB somebody quoting a journeymen (Forgot the name) who said to the effect "George Foreman hit about as hard as Ron Lyle, but Shavers hit harder than both combined". People then say take a look at his record he never KO'd a solid chinned, quality fighter but that has nothing to do with Shaver's power but his boxing abilities which were fairly poor. Poor stamina, poor delivery of punches and a horrid finisher. In terms of 1 shot power I don't recall any fighter having that sort of impact on Ali or Holmes. I love what Tillis said "He can turn July into June and sent me over the motherfucking moon".


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Earnie Shavers is the number one culprit. Wlad of late tends to get overrated regarding his one punch power. It generally takes a few pinpoint shots before an opponent goes down. Compared to Lennox or Tyson he falls a step short.

Agree with those saying Valero. Heavy handed no doubt, but not the huge puncher he was portrayed as. Matthysse is the same today.

Max Baer never impressed me as a puncher.



dyna said:


> Earnie Shavers and Rocky Marciano
> 
> Pacman also


Marciano's overrated as a puncher only if you include him as a heavyweight. P4P however, he was fearsome. His KO highlights do tend to overshadow his lesser performances though.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> I don't understand why so many say Shavers in particular it's like the go-to name for overrated power. Bar Curtis Sheppard there is nobody else who is that consistently ranked the hardest puncher by all who faced him. For those who say that most of those boxers just say his name because they beat him I recall back at ESB somebody quoting a journeymen (Forgot the name) who said to the effect "George Foreman hit about as hard as Ron Lyle, but Shavers hit harder than both combined". People then say take a look at his record he never KO'd a solid chinned, quality fighter but that has nothing to do with Shaver's power but his boxing abilities which were fairly poor. Poor stamina, poor delivery of punches and a horrid finisher. *In terms of 1 shot power I don't recall any fighter having that sort of impact on Ali* or Holmes. I love what Tillis said "He can turn July into June and sent me over the motherfucking moon".


Henry Cooper shook Ali harder than any man ever shook Ali.
Though that shot from Shavers that dropped Holmes was picture perfect, beautifully stepped in and great use of leverage with his "strange" frame (broad shoulder, very long legs, long arms).
But many very limited fighters could punch like that, the difference being that Shavers was skilled enough to land such a haymaker from time to time.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

It's Ovah said:


> Earnie Shavers is the number one culprit. Wlad of late tends to get overrated regarding his one punch power. It generally takes a few pinpoint shots before an opponent goes down. Compared to Lennox or Tyson he falls a step short.
> 
> Agree with those saying Valero. Heavy handed no doubt, but not the huge puncher he was portrayed as. Matthysse is the same today.
> 
> ...


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr. Brain said:


> Roberto Duran. In most of his lightweight title fight KO's he had to work on his opponents all night long to take them out.


Still. He carried his power up to middleweight. Power isn't just sparking someone.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Still. He carried his power up to middleweight. Power isn't just sparking someone.


:huh Ummmm, wat? I thought that was the whole idea of punching power. Duran was working really really hard and he hit these guys often and with full force (even fleetfoot Bizzarro and Fernandez). Duran seemed to think power was about KOing guys. Are you sure that punching power isn't about trying to render your boxing opponent inert? Don't you feel you need to think this out a little?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Mr. Brain said:


> :huh Ummmm, wat? I thought that was the whole idea of punching power. Duran was working really really hard and he hit these guys often and with full force (even fleetfoot Bizzarro and Fernandez). Duran seemed to think power was about KOing guys. Are you sure that punching power isn't about trying to render your boxing opponent inert? Don't you feel you need to think this out a little?


So powerful punchers are only the sort that finish a bout with one or two punches? You can't be powerful if you only stop your opponent and badly hurt them, only if you render them completelt unconscious like Bob Foster? Maybe you need to have a little think.

'Duran seemed to think' no, Duran seemed to think battering his opponent was the name of the game. Mong.

Anyway, who overrates Durans power? That is the thread. Who claims he was a Julian Jackson-esque bomber at 135?

Durans power, made up of his accuracy, timing and speed, is solid and he carried that up to World ranked opposition at middleweight, and a big middle at that.

I'd say his power is ranked just fine. What you are saying is just how most class him as a puncher.


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

i'm on the shavers and williams bandwagon here: they had power but shit delivery systems but when your reputation, and what reputations, are built on what fighters _say_ about you rather than results i'm a bit skeptical.

totally agreed on ron lyle, who i thought was more skilled than slugger. his punching power was good but never great imo


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> So powerful punchers are only the sort that finish a bout with one or two punches? You can't be powerful if you only stop your opponent and badly hurt them, only if you render them completelt unconscious like Bob Foster? Maybe you need to have a little think.
> 
> 'Duran seemed to think' no, Duran seemed to think battering his opponent was the name of the game. Mong.
> 
> ...


ring rated him 28th best puncher of all time (?) and their explanation was pretty damn good. he wasn't a one shot bomber but had the best array of punches in the modern era. he could where you done and finish you with almost anything in the book. i'm more scared of him than i am a charley white or ingo where you KNOW which punch is gonna do the damage


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## Bil1234 (Jun 11, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Couldnt you argue that Marciano had to land a high volume of punches to get the job done as well? Most of his stoppages were via accumulation and not 1 punch knockouts.
> 
> Yeah, he drew with Machen (most felt Williams took the W, and yeah I know that doesnt necessarily show his power but you asked if he ever beat anyone), stopped Ernie Terrell and should've been granted a decison over him as well.
> 
> Williams may not have been the best fighter ever, or even the best contender of his era,but he certainly deserves a nod for his power. his personal issues caused a lot of setbacks and distractions.


Later in Marciano's career as he slowed down and focused more on pure accumulation it could be argued, however he still has a history of knocking guys completely unconscious (Walcott-esque unconscious) with 1 punch throughout his career.



Lester1583 said:


> Matthysse's skills were more overrated than his power.


That may be a more accurate statement.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> I don't understand why so many say Shavers in particular it's like the go-to name for overrated power. Bar Curtis Sheppard there is nobody else who is that consistently ranked the hardest puncher by all who faced him.


Who remembered getting hit by Max Baer who said it wasn't the Larruper? (Hatchetman himself said that while Archie Moore was the hardest puncher he ever competed against, the namesake of your user nom de guerre surpassed Moore, Louis, JJW and all others Sheppard encountered either in competition or a boxing gym.)



> For those who say that most of those boxers just say his name because they beat him I recall back at ESB somebody quoting a journeyman (Forgot the name) who said to the effect "George Foreman hit about as hard as Ron Lyle, but Shavers hit harder than both combined".


:hi:Hi. That was me quoting Leroy Caldwell a number of times. Caldwell, Ken Norton, Muhammad Ali (on camera), Ron Lyle (on camera), Jimmy Young (who was floored in both his matches with Earnie, the only knockdowns of his career), and Charlie Polite were the six common opponents of Shavers and Foreman who unanimously agreed that Shavers was the hardest puncher they ever faced. Shavers-Young I was the only time Jimmy was stopped until a Cooney inflicted cut rescued Gerry from a schooling. (Unlike Shavers and Foreman, Cooney never staggered Jimmy.) Earnie's weirdly overlooked hook is what floored Young multiple times, and Lyle ("he hit me, and the floor came up"), while also initially stunning Norton before a right to the body decked Ken the first time. The unanimous consensus of ALL six common opponents is simply too overwhelming to be disregarded, yet some uninformed and delusional posters disregard all this in favor of Foreman, claiming to be better qualified to know this than Ali, Norton, Caldwell, Lyle, Young and Polite put together.

The only common opponent of Shavers and Liston was the never floored Henry Clark, who rated Earnie cleanly over Sonny for power after getting blasted out in round two of the Ali-Norton III undercard at Yankee Stadium. Henry didn't have nearly the number of bouts Chuvalo had, but he squared off against many more huge punchers, actually defeated some of them, even blew out Jeff Merritt in 47 seconds of their rematch when catching him cold, and took Mercado the ten round limit in Clark's career finale. But the Shavers-Clark II demonstrated what a different animal Earnie was with a healthy right hand.]

Chuck Wepner has clearly stated many times in no uncertain terms that Liston definitely hit him harder than Foreman (who couldn't drop Chuck), and Sonny's body shot knockdown of the huge Wepner is a monster. They were in mid ring, Chuck was not caught off balance, and Liston drove forward a right hand into Wepner's midsection core which bowled Chuck backwards onto his rump.

Quick Tillis and Larry Holmes are the only common opponents of both Earnie Shavers and Mike Tyson. The footage conclusively validates the assertion of both James and the Assassin that the right hands Earnie planted them with were far more devastating as individual punches than what Mike landed on them. (Tyson did lay a dazed Larry out with that third knockdown after a 45 second chase, but a rusty and misfiring 38 year old Larry still came within five seconds of surviving that round. The Holmes of Shavers II would have been completely clear headed long before 45 seconds had expired. Peak for peak, I have zero doubt that Larry would have stopped Mike late, although he might have to get off the deck at some point.)



> People then say take a look at his record he never KO'd a solid chinned, quality fighter


Right, which means they're not looking at his record, only claiming to. Not only was he the first guy to stop Young, and the only one to ever floor him, but nobody else ever put Jimmy Ellis down for the count (Frazier couldn't do it with what Joe indicated on camera to Jim Clash may have been the hardest shot of Smoke's career). Earnie is the only one to ever knock down and knock out Tiger Williams. Joe Bugner was stopped four times in 83 career bouts. His quickest exit was against Shavers, who decked him in the first, and halted him in the second. In Ron Lyle's first 35 bouts, he had never been floored. Earnie introduced Big Ron to that experience in round two. Today, and maybe in a neutral venue then, that one would have been halted then and there, but it took place in Lyle's Denver. Still, only the bell saved Ron from a guaranteed second round defeat, sounding just before a charging Shavers had a chance to hit him again after Lyle got up with great difficulty.

Okay, people might say Bugner was aging and rusty after a layoff, that Ellis was caught cold early and was undersized, and that Young was too inexperienced. But Clark went more rounds with more big punchers than Chuvalo did, and would deck Howard "KO" Smith in his next match before finishing up by completing ten rounds with the deadly Mercado. Henry was not particularly elusive a target. Yet Norton and Liston were the only two other guys to stop him, and both matches were televised on extant footage. It took Ken nine rounds, and Sonny seven rounds to stop Clark on his feet. (Norton closed his eyes.)

Clark, with his wins over Merritt, Tiger Williams, Machen, Mac Foster, a 14-1 Jody Ballard (right before Shavers I), and the career making upset of a 5-1 Manuel Ramos in 1964 does, I think, represent him as an example of a solid chinned veteran of quality that Earnie took out. [And on pages 52 and 53 of "Going the Distance," Norton lauded Henry, stating, "He was a beautiful boxer with a great chin, and also a classy gentleman."]


> but that has nothing to do with Shaver's power but his boxing abilities which were fairly poor.


Maxie, I think a distinction needs to specified here between boxing abilities and finishing skills. Earnie wasn't a very good finisher, didn't have the killer "instinct" of a Duran, and top shelf "swing for the fences" hay-maker punchers like Cuevas, Max Baer and Shavers can't put combinations together well like the much faster and shorter punching Louis, Dempsey and Tyson (originally). Shavers entered Clark I in Paris with a bruised right hand, and bewildered a stunned silent 45 year old rookie color analyst Larry Merchant by turning cutie with his long left jab and quality lateral movement [probably drawn on from his youthful gridiron experiences.]Anybody who doesn't think Earnie could stick while on the run, only had a right hand, and was deficient in boxing skill against world class competition, needs to see the rarely viewed Shavers-Clark I.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaBSGzDLJbk



> Poor stamina, poor delivery of punches and a horrid finisher.


Correct, and he could be effectively tied up when trying to follow up on a stunned opponent, as he repeatedly was after dropping Mercado. Some writers in the late 1970s and early 1980s criticized him for not optimizing his reach better to make more use of his jab, but Earnie's heavy club like arms and 6'0" height along with other factors simply didn't supply him with the physical template and muscular endurance necessary. He came into Paris knowing he'd have to win over the distance, and allowed for both his remaining abilities and limitations with his right hand dis-empowered. I think he looks far better sticking and moving than Max Baer (who didn't jab when retreating from Carnera), and more fluid and graceful with his lateral movement than many other one punch artists, but his gridiron background as a lineman entailed momentary bursts of quick lateral movement, not sustained action. Even in situations where he expected to have to win on the cards going in, he understood that he was a front runner who would need to build up an early insurmountable lead before hanging in there to reach the finish. The sticking and moving did fatigue him in Paris, but also produced an unprecedented swelling and cutting of Clark's eye which preempted Henry's rally. And he entered the late rounds against Tiger Williams after having swept to an insurmountable early lead on aggression with right handed body shots with Roy practicing his brand of his employer's rope-a-dope tactics.


> In terms of 1 shot power I don't recall any fighter having that sort of impact on Ali or Holmes. I love what Tillis said "He can turn July into June and sent me over the motherfucking moon".


Tillis, Ali and Lyle all offered great one-liners about Earnie's power.

Shavers was a very smart slugger, who again had experienced his abilities and limitations going into his title shots. He punched himself out against Lyle on the ropes because he fully understood that his only chance of winning at altitude in Denver was by knockout. Realizing that he was a front runner with a bruised right hand in Paris, he jabbed and moved to the early lead against Clark, while very deliberately keeping things in center ring. Unlike Foreman in Kinshasa, he made sure to score with heavy rights to the body on a reclining Tiger Williams, so he'd at least bank those early rounds on the cards in their ten rounder, in case trying to kill Roy's body didn't make his head die, and Earnie was right to push himself like that.

For his challenge of Ali, he'd already experienced more than once what Foreman had never discovered before Kinshasa. He had punched himself out in Denver, pulled a tenth round knockout from his gut after punching himself out against Tiger Williams, and knew he could not knock everybody out, that there were immovable objects, not irresistible forces. No, he didn't go after Ali when staggering Muhammad as many believe he should have, but Ali was a master of clinching tactics and survival. Earnie was in trouble at the final bell, but he did go five rounds longer than he ever had before, and even swept rounds 13 and 14. Many believe Shavers did do enough to earn that decision (some have him winning as many as ten rounds, although Earnie himself has said he agrees with the official scoring, and he certainly did far better than Lyle and Foreman had with the GOAT. Nobody came close to staggering Ali so many times with individual punches. Far from being yet another gassed stoppage victim, I believe that it was actually Shavers more than any other boxer who brought an end to the GOAT's claim as the best HW in the world. (I don't overlook what Inoki did to his legs in Tokyo prior to Norton III either.) Leon Spinks does not come close to dethroning Ali if Earnie doesn't challenge Muhammad first. (And I do think Ali's rubber match win over Norton ends more clearly in Ali's favor without the Inoki debacle.) If Shavers had gone after Ali when Muhammad was hurt early, he would probably have been stymied into exhaustion by the middle rounds. The one experience he did not have at that time was going longer than ten rounds, and tentativeness over having never experienced the championship rounds also cost the well conditioned Patterson dearly against Ellis.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Wow. Great post Duo.

I do think that prime Tyson has the beating of Holmes though.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Vic said:


> We always talk about overrated, underrated, fighters........but regarding power, what are your examples of huys that were known as punchers but were a bit overrated in that aspect in your opinion.
> 
> R*on Lyle for example, *who was a pretty good fighter, we know, and could stop many people.....but it seems like he was not able to stop many elite heavyweights, right ? At least not like other guys..... He fought Bonavena, Quarry...he fought Peralta who was small, former lighheavy and all and couldn´t stop them.....And yet, Lyle is always mentioned as a powerful puncher, which he was, but in comparison with the elite punchers, no. SAme with Cleveland Williams, always referred as a big puncher.....
> Maybe I´m being too harsh, I don´t know.....I´m sure some here thought about that before, but I don´t have any other examples, perhaps Valero is another one, plenty of times people mentioned him as a powerful puncher and he really wasn´t, as far 1 punch power goes anyway (Pitalua KO comes to mind though)......
> ...


ron lyle? overrated power? haha underrated if anything, he was the only man who dropped foreman twice at any point of his carrer aqnd he did it EARLY, not because he was tired like ali did, NOT GERRY COONEY, NOT NORTON, NOT FRAZIER, NOT MORRISON, NOT STEWART, NOT A PEAK HOLYFIELD NO FUCKING BODY DID HURT FOREMAN LIKE THAT , SO SHUT THE FUCK


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

duo said:


> who remembered getting hit by max baer who said it wasn't the larruper? (hatchetman himself said that while archie moore was the hardest puncher he ever competed against, the namesake of your user nom de guerre surpassed moore, louis, jjw and all others sheppard encountered either in competition or a boxing gym.)
> 
> :hi:hi. That was me quoting leroy caldwell a number of times. Caldwell, ken norton, muhammad ali (on camera), ron lyle (on camera), jimmy young (who was floored in both his matches with earnie, the only knockdowns of his career), and charlie polite were the six common opponents of shavers and foreman who unanimously agreed that shavers was the hardest puncher they ever faced. Shavers-young i was the only time jimmy was stopped until a cooney inflicted cut rescued gerry from a schooling. (unlike shavers and foreman, cooney never staggered jimmy.) earnie's weirdly overlooked hook is what floored young multiple times, and lyle ("he hit me, and the floor came up"), while also initially stunning norton before a right to the body decked ken the first time. The unanimous consensus of all six common opponents is simply too overwhelming to be disregarded, yet some uninformed and delusional posters disregard all this in favor of foreman, claiming to be better qualified to know this than ali, norton, caldwell, lyle, young and polite put together.
> 
> ...


earnie shavers on the camera rated ron lyle , foreman and himself at the hardest punchers ever... . He said that lyle did hit much harder than larry holmes...( hardly a flyweight puncher).
I dont give a crap for this bulllshit of wepner saying that liston did hit harder than foreman because foreman stopped him in 3 roundsa (a green foreman in his fight number 3 or 4 ) and liston stopped wepner in the round 11 and he could not ko him. The facts are much bigger than words...


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## Bil1234 (Jun 11, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> earnie shavers on the camera rated ron lyle , foreman and himself at the hardest punchers ever... . He said that lyle did hit much harder than larry holmes...( hardly a fltweight puncher).
> I dont give a crap for this bulllshit of wepner saying that liston did hit harder than foreman because foreman stopped him in 3 roundsa (a green foreman in his fight number 3 or 4 ) and liston stopped wepner in the round 11 and he could not ko him. The facts are much bigger than words...


At the time Wepner fought Liston and Foreman, I think it's likely that Liston did really hit harder than the Foreman Wepner fought. Foreman was only 20 years old and while he was still a beast, he was still physically developing into the monster he became in the mid 1970s. Foreman of 1970 probably didn't hit as hard as Foreman of 1973 or 1974. Liston on the other hand was already a full grown man and seasoned pro when he fought Wepner and he likely actually was stronger and a harder puncher than Foreman at that point in time.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Regarding Lyle, he was already 30 years old when he turned professional, and was smart enough to take on opponents who would extend him for maximum experience and development. Big Ron ducked nobody. Gets schooled by Young over ten, gets back in there later for another 12 of schooling. Drops his undefeated record to grizzled veteran Jerry Quarry, then gets right back in there with Stallings and Peralta, then with Peralta again. Goes ten with Middleton after previously stopping Larry in three. He knew he was never going to be a master boxer, but he was looking to learn and experience as much from his competition as he could as quickly as he could. Taking on somebody like Leroy Caldwell in just his fifth match was a representation of this. That he never stopped any professional opponent in the opening round was a matter of choice for him. Lyle repeatedly went after guys other sluggers had nightmares about, and masochistically sought out spoilers like Bugner, LeDoux, Stan Ward, Young, Peralta, Isaac, Caldwell, Stallings and others.

My friend The Phantom loves cuties and negative type specialists like Young, but I also think the Rons and Earnies who would rematch a guy like Jimmy also need to be acknowledged for providing opposition. Did any heavyweight slugger ever seek out this kind of opponent with the enthusiasm Ron Lyle did? Norton was deftly cherry picked through the minefield of huge sluggers en route to his title shots and awarding of the WBC belt. Foreman candidly admitted evaded slugger exploiting (explicitly Jerry Quarry) and cutie types like the plague in favor of quick wins and easy knockoffs. [Incidentally, Lyle came out of retirement in 1995 looking for a rematch with George, who wanted no part of it. Foreman has implied that he felt close to dying in the dressing room after Young, but Ron had his death certificate signed and demise twice declared before his amateur career even got underway.]

The topic of ducking has always been a staple of boxing discussions. We don't often discuss contenders who proved through their actions that they were more than willing to take on anybody and everybody during the era of color television, but Ron Lyle's name is that of the first post 1950s heavyweight contender who should come up in a conversation like that. [Foreman may very well have also been afraid of Bonavena, but Ron took him on, and beat Ringo over 12.] Alas, if Lyle was only blessed with Liston's advantages of youth and time on his side when he began!


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> earnie shavers on the camera rated ron lyle , foreman and himself at the hardest punchers ever... . He said that lyle did hit much harder than larry holmes...( hardly a fltweight puncher).
> I dont give a crap for this bulllshit of wepner saying that liston did hit harder than foreman because foreman stopped him in 3 roundsa (a green foreman in his fight number 3 or 4 ) and liston stopped wepner in the round 11 and he could not ko him. The facts are much bigger than words...


You should've been aborted.


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Duo said:


> Regarding Lyle, he was already 30 years old when he turned professional, and was smart enough to take on opponents who would extend him for maximum experience and development. Big Ron ducked nobody. Gets schooled by Young over ten, gets back in there later for another 12 of schooling. Drops his undefeated record to grizzled veteran Jerry Quarry, then gets right back in there with Stallings and Peralta, then with Peralta again. Goes ten with Middleton after previously stopping Larry in three. He knew he was never going to be a master boxer, but he was looking to learn and experience as much from his competition as he could as quickly as he could. Taking on somebody like Leroy Caldwell in just his fifth match was a representation of this. That he never stopped any professional opponent in the opening round was a matter of choice for him. Lyle repeatedly went after guys other sluggers had nightmares about, and masochistically sought out spoilers like Bugner, LeDoux, Stan Ward, Young, Peralta, Isaac, Caldwell, Stallings and others.
> 
> My friend The Phantom loves cuties and negative type specialists like Young, but I also think the Rons and Earnies who would rematch a guy like Jimmy also need to be acknowledged for providing opposition. Did any heavyweight slugger ever seek out this kind of opponent with the enthusiasm Ron Lyle did? Norton was deftly cherry picked through the minefield of huge sluggers en route to his title shots and awarding of the WBC belt. Foreman candidly admitted evaded slugger exploiting (explicitly Jerry Quarry) and cutie types like the plague in favor of quick wins and easy knockoffs. [Incidentally, Lyle came out of retirement in 1995 looking for a rematch with George, who wanted no part of it. Foreman has implied that he felt close to dying in the dressing room after Young, but Ron had his death certificate signed and demise twice declared before his amateur career even got underway.]
> 
> The topic of ducking has always been a staple of boxing discussions. We don't often discuss contenders who proved through their actions that they were more than willing to take on anybody and everybody during the era of color television, but Ron Lyle's name is that of the first post 1950s heavyweight contender who should come up in a conversation like that. [Foreman may very well have also been afraid of Bonavena, but Ron took him on, and beat Ringo over 12.] Alas, if Lyle was only blessed with Liston's advantages of youth and time on his side when he began!


:cheersThanks for the mention my friend, ....I'm the phantom and I heartily endorse this post.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> In terms of 1 shot power I don't recall any fighter having that sort of impact on Ali or Holmes. I love what Tillis said "He can turn July into June and sent me over the motherfucking moon".


Frazier and Tyson both had a bigger impact with single shots.


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## ThinBlack (Jun 5, 2013)

Michael Dokes, Julio Caesar Chavez.


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## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

Currently

-Maidana
-Danny Garcia
-Canelo
-Lara


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

The first heavyweight who should have been named on this thread is Norton, and Jerry Quarry detailed exactly why Ken's punches looked deceptively powerful while providing color commentary for Norton-Middleton. This is significant, because JQ was on the receiving end of what Ken said was the hardest punch he ever landed, the right uppercut in the third round which shredded Jerry open. (I've yet to look for that specific punch in the footage.) Yes, Norton had very respectable power, but he was not a top tier puncher. A vastly underrated boxer however. Flash Gordon defined class as, "the ability to move and deploy the jab." By that definition, guys like Arguello, Louis, Bob Foster and Norton didn't have it, but nobody suggests they weren't highly skilled boxers who could do it on the cards. 

Why does Norton's power get so radically overrated? Blame it primarily on Ali, who forever after hyped Ken's fracturing of his jaw to the hilt. The truth was that anybody with a decent right hand could have made Muhammad pay for his neglected impacted wisdom tooth by landing just on the precise spot at the perfect moment to cause it to break. Norton landed it exactly at a moment Ali had his mouth open to trash talk Ken. The result made Norton's power seemingly match his physique. 

Duane Bobick. Norton was a much slower starter than Frazier, but so was Bobick, who was already known to be susceptible to a crushing right hand. In a huge crossroads match before a nationwide audience, Duane stupidly tried to roar right out the gate, and Ken caught him first. Once again, his physique appeared to match his power. But it was one of the two most atypical wins of Norton's career, and one of the only two first round stoppages he ever produced. It just came at the perfect time.

The other most atypical win of his career was on the under card of Holmes-Evangelista, against Randy Stephens towards building up a title rematch with Larry. Again before a huge television audience, Holmes and Norton produced the definitive one punch knockout wins of their careers, and that broadcast made both Ken and Larry look like far more awesome punchers than they really were. Still, I think it was enough to sufficiently wet appetites for Holmes-Norton II, but no, they stupidly had to throw Ken in an elimination match to try ratcheting up anticipation and suspense even further, and that's when Shavers capsized the boat. Holmes-Shavers II was a big fight with a big audience, but despite Earnie's ability to keep people on the edge of their seats with his power, the fact is that Larry had already dominated him. Holmes needed that sub par showing against upstart Weaver to make people think a rejuvenated Shavers might have a better chance this time, but only Earnie's knockdown of Larry kept Holmes-Shavers II from being even more one sided than Holmes-Shavers I. Yes, Larry was floored, but he also produced the stoppage win. Everybody I knew liked Shavers, but saw Holmes-Norton II as the better fight.

Henry Clark was an impressive result, but also a deceptive stoppage. Nobody suggests that Ken is in the same class of puncher as Liston and Shavers, however good Norton TKO 9 Clark looks on paper alongside them. 

George Foreman doesn't rate him as a puncher. Neither did Jerry Quarry, who favored Mac Foster among his opponents in that category. (JQ seems to be the only one of prime Earnie's opponents who got hit with the Shavers power without being affected by it.) I'd be interested in knowing how Larry Middleton compared Ken's power with Jerry's, but JQ did produce a number of one punch knockdowns and also one punch knockouts with both hands. Nobody else ever dropped and stopped Mac Foster. Norton does not have a unique stoppage of distinction like that on his record, over a contender never floored or taken out by any other. Jerry was utterly shot for Norton, and got cut up but only Ken's knees buckled in that one.

I always think of Norton primarily as an unorthodox boxer who had a good punch. Sluggers could be deadly to him, but he was not ever dominated by a stylist in an extended match. Unlike Lyle, he could box with a Jimmy Young. Zora Folley was a predecessor with good skills and a solid punch who had a vulnerable chin. Norton was unique, but Folley might be roughly analogous in degree of skill, power and punch resistance.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You should've been aborted.


and you don´t even deserve the life being a pathetic, ugly , frustrated ,laughable and weak midget haha


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

1:34 in


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

jorodz said:


> 1:34 in


A truly painful vid for any Quarry fan...atsch


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Quarry was shot for some time before this fight...though I take nothing away from Norton here...he fought beautifully.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

jorodz said:


> 1:34 in


Okay, thanks!:good Doesn't look like much at live speed, but stop action shows Ken repositioned as necessary, then got everything he had into it, raking up Jerry's face. But I can also understand why JQ was unimpressed with his power. Joe Alexander and Joe Frazier had hit him much harder the year before, and Jerry would never get hit like that again.

Norton never rallied from far behind to win, although he got up from early career KDs in initial rounds to stop guys before Henry Clark brought him into the national spotlight. JQ was horrendous against Zanon, and took a battering in possibly Mac Foster's best career performance, but came back in a way Norton couldn't in Ali II and Holmes. Jerry had the power to suddenly pull things out like that. He could blow out world class guys in one, and was really beating the shit out of a badly stunned Thad Spencer at the end of 12. The latest round Ken ever stopped anybody in was the flagrantly bullshit stoppage of Middleton to save Ali-Norton III, but Ken was really a mid rounds attrition puncher, usually stopping them between three and seven stanzas. (Shavers was the exact opposite. Three tenth round knockouts, but most within the amateur limit. He was stopped twice in eight, by Mercado and Cobb, a round he never produced a knockout win in any of his 68 stoppage victories. For all his stamina issues, he has two more double round count out wins than Norton and Foreman combined.)


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Phantom said:


> Quarry was shot for some time before this fight...though I take nothing away from Norton here...he fought beautifully.


Yeah, I think a strong case can be made that this was actually his best performance. Tremendously motivated with razor sharp accuracy, and his comments about that uppercut being his career hardest punch supports that. He caught lightning in a bottle by breaking Ali's jaw, and by catching Bobick as he did, but he was really on fire for Jerry.

Some analysts have suggested that the second match with Ali might have been his best, but he just followed a dancing and jabbing Muhammad around for the first several rounds without punching back.

Ken was dismal for Middleton, a situation where he should have been as motivated to make a good showing for Ali III as he was for Jerry, and he didn't impress against an aging Weeble in Stander. I do think Ken was better off the ropes in his final career win against Cobb than Dokes was in either of his matches with the brawling Texan, but Norton's experience and skill were the difference there, against a much physically stronger opponent who his power was utterly impotent with. (After working the Cobb-Shavers telecast with Dunphy as future opponent Cooney guested with them, Ken had also planned well for Tex, knew exactly what to expect, and was fully prepared to counter off the ropes for a decision win. Norton-Cobb was an excellent fight, but also one that Ken would have taken by UD on neutral turf.)

For overrated power, I'll toss in Arguello. Yes, he was a deadly puncher with terrific leverage and form, but timing, accuracy and precision placement were really his thing. He seemed to have been born with an innate understanding of the human anatomy's vulnerable points, boxing's closest thing to a dim mak master. He could zero in on the hinge of a jaw, the temple, liver, or laser target the solar plexus right when an opponent was beginning to exhale (Ganigan). Alexis looked dreadful against Costello, but he could turn things around with a single punch, and it was not ever a wild lucky punch.

I've always posted that Hagler's power was overrated. Duran said it was all concentrated in his right hand, that the left "was dead." Antuofermo said after their draw that MMH didn't punch as hard as expected, and rated him fifth in power among his opponents to that point (likely selling a bill of goods to Steve Farhood), including behind Bennie Briscoe and Cyclone Hart. (Hagler himself may well agree that Hart and Briscoe did in fact hit harder.) Vito did emphasize very strongly in the ring after their draw that he'd much rather fight Hagler again than rematch Hugo Corro. (Phantom, I just KNOW you love being reminded of that!) However, what made Marv so deadly was that his right jab had one punch knockout power. It seems like all the still photographs of him extending his right have him really stepping into it, and I wonder how Dempsey compared it to his description of a left jolt with falling step. (Scypion was Hagler's last match before Jack died four days later with all his marbles still intact, so he may well have watched it.)


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

Duo said:


> Yeah, I think a strong case can be made that this was actually his best performance. Tremendously motivated with razor sharp accuracy, and his comments about that uppercut being his career hardest punch supports that. He caught lightning in a bottle by breaking Ali's jaw, and by catching Bobick as he did, but he was really on fire for Jerry.
> 
> Some analysts have suggested that the second match with Ali might have been his best, but he just followed a dancing and jabbing Muhammad around for the first several rounds without punching back.
> 
> ...


outstanding post as always :happy though i think you made cases both for and against both gentleman  regarding hagler's right hand, it's a bang on description. the sibson fight is my favourite hagler performance. and it's because of that right jab. he turned it into one of the most perfect power jabs i've ever seen and he did a better job turning the hook over than quartey would later do. if we're just looking at the right, hagler's got elite power (though yeah, probably behind both hart and briscoe. goddamn philly)


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

I agreed with @Duo 's post completely until he said something about Arguello's power. Cmon son.

Arguello was one of the most impressive punchers ever, next to Joe Louis, who really had late round knockout power.

The way he broke down Mancini is a perfect example of this. Reeled him in for the trap. That right hand fucked him and the power changed the fight.

Its not just precision punching here. Some boxers just ARE punchers and have LEGIT power. Arguello was, Jimmy Young was not.

Damn. I finished the post and hes shitting on Hagler's power too? When hagler decided to get nasty you know he meant business. Just watch the Obel or the Caveman Lee fights for proof.

Hagler has always been known as an attrition puncher, that was his reputation. He is perfectly rated Imo. he could settle things early if he needed to or if the opportunity presented itself. The thing is he was a smart fighter and recognised that he could win via schooling rather than always trying to get the KO.


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## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't like these kind of threads because people often make no difference between power and the skill needed to land with power. A fighter can have great power and not as many ko's as he should on his record. It depends on the level of opponents he's fighting, the style of his opponents, their chin, his own skill level and his own style. If we assume that everyone with great power should have as many knockouts as he should have according to his power than the champs would very most likely be the boxers with most power in the divisions and the top 10 of every division should roughly be in order of their power.
There are many fighters with HUGE power who weren't even on Shavers level. Foreman once answered to the question who hits the hardest with someone I had to look up on boxrec to know who he was. Travis Walker is a huge puncher and he's a journeyman (in his last fights and in his alst fights he looked old and shot) and doesn't have as many kos as he should


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

At middleweight (and in hypothetical h2h matches above 160) Julian Jackson his power is often overrated.
Sure he was still a murderous hitter but his truly special p4p power he had at 154 was no longer there anymore and people often forget that 154 was his "power prime" and not 160.

On the general forum somebody was wondering how Froch would do against Julian Jackson at 168 to truly test that chin, Jackson his power simply wouldn't be special at 168.


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Duo said:


> Yeah, I think a strong case can be made that this was actually his best performance. Tremendously motivated with razor sharp accuracy, and his comments about that uppercut being his career hardest punch supports that. He caught lightning in a bottle by breaking Ali's jaw, and by catching Bobick as he did, but he was really on fire for Jerry.
> 
> Some analysts have suggested that the second match with Ali might have been his best, but he just followed a dancing and jabbing Muhammad around for the first several rounds without punching back.
> 
> ...


:lol:


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> I agreed with @Duo 's post completely until he said something about Arguello's power. Cmon son.
> 
> Arguello was one of the most impressive punchers ever, next to Joe Louis, who really had late round knockout power.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I knew that was going to be a provocative opinion about two of my favorites, and I certainly don't think they were overrated by much. But I'm braced for a cascade of grief from posters who normally agree with many of my unorthodox views. Need to take some risks though, and get some adrenaline going by being challenged to defend some opinions.

Hagler's left was like Frazier's right. Nothing to sneeze at, and certainly more dangerous than Ingo's left. But he was described prior to Antuofermo I as having murderous power in both fists. Off-hand, the only knockdown I recall him producing with that left as a self contained event was when his left cross from the southpaw stance collided with Vito's incoming head during their rematch. Otherwise, his lefts did damage after his right triggered the avalanche. If he went into a bout with an injured left, it wouldn't be missed much. Taking away the power of his right would tend to turn him into more of a steel chinned cutie. He'd still get his fair share of knockouts, still be the MW of the decade, but you'd see a lot more Briscoe type matches where he circles the perimeter and deploys his 75 inch reach.

Caveman Lee doesn't count for much with me. Just about everybody expected that outcome going in. Lee-LoCicero was a barnburner, but also made it obvious that neither had the chin to last for any length of time with Hagler. Obel II, on the other hand, was the best one punch count out win of his career. [Every time I saw Marv unload a leaping right hook like that though, I cringed, afraid he might wrench his shoulder out of joint. Liston's jab with Patterson's hook, both on the southpaw side.

I don't know how smart a fighter he was. Certainly dedicated and extremely skilled, but he was confused early on against Geraldo (betrayed by how he was constantly switching stances with a furrowed look on his brow which disappeared after he got into rhythm and had things figured out), and he outsmarted himself against SRL, trying to beat Ray at his own game, instead of simply being and reminding everybody exactly who Marvelous Marvin Hagler was. (SRL had already had that sobering experience in Montreal, and nearly against Hearns in their WW unification, but he did keep things basic against Benitez, instead of trying to get cute with El Radar. That's what Hagler needed to against Ray, fight his OWN fight, act, not react, and ignore what SRL was doing. Instead, he ceded ring generalship to Ray.)

Marv didn't care what Hearns did, and wasn't about to let that turn into a test of wits and skill. I wasn't too happy with Hagler-Duran, but Marv did do two things exactly as he should-stand his ground as the bigger stronger man, and the younger one in better condition. With the championship rounds, that was the difference maker, not punching power. Roberto shouldn't have partied his way into his debacle with Hearns, but there's still a world of difference between what Tommy did to him, and what Hagler couldn't. We only ever saw Duran glassy like that with Hearns and Joppy.

On paper, Hagler-Hamsho II is an impressive knockout win, but I'm still not sure how I feel about the validity of that one. Being part Syrian while also a transplanted New Englander who had met Marv (who also knew my sister, working for a law firm which represented him), Hagler-Hamsho I & II were the only instances in both their careers where my loyalties were divided, and I was genuinely neutral. For Mustafa to suck like that in their rematch, then go 12 with a bomber like Lalonde two years later is a lot to swallow. (If Hamsho did dive though, he was a good deal better at it than a self-pimping Geraldo. Very weird to see Hagler shove him back with such ease. Marv wasn't as physically strong as his musculature suggested. Mustafa was, and that's how he beat guys like Czyz.)

Ramirez stated in no uncertain terms that Rosario was clearly a harder puncher than Arguello after his first match with Edwin, and Chapo did deck Jose twice before Ramirez came roaring back in their rematch. JRL had a helluva chin, and is borderline HOF material, with plenty to compare Arguello's power against.

To me at the time, the most devastating looking knockout I'd ever seen Arguello produce was the finishing hook of his toughest career win, the rematch with Escalera in Italy. When I see Max Baer's first knockdown of Carnera, I hear the sound of a bowling alley strike. When I watch the final knockdown in Arguello-Escalera II with what I think of as "The Rimini Bomb," a big  POW!momentarily flashes before my eyes, like a Batman series comic book censor. However, Alexis's benefactor Eduardo Roman said it wasn't a powerful punch, but one that was perfectly timed and placed, which caused the Snake Man to fall multiple times. Admittedly, this is an extremely edgy and provocative pick for me.

The two biggest superfights Arguello was proposed for that never came off were Duran at 135, and SRL at 147. I don't believe Alexis's power would have hurt either, and that Roberto and Ray both would have knocked him out. And in two tries, the same power which laid out Rooney couldn't dent Pryor, to the body or head.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

dyna said:


> At middleweight (and in hypothetical h2h matches above 160) Julian Jackson his power is often overrated.
> Sure he was still a murderous hitter but his truly special p4p power he had at 154 was no longer there anymore and people often forget that 154 was his "power prime" and not 160.
> 
> On the general forum somebody was wondering how Froch would do against Julian Jackson at 168 to truly test that chin, Jackson his power simply wouldn't be special at 168.


haha funny dyna because certain retard poster said that julian jackson would ko tommy morrison... hahah


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> and you don´t even deserve the life being a pathetic, ugly , frustrated ,laughable and weak midget haha


So you are an alias.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

PivotPunch said:


> I don't like these kind of threads because people often make no difference between power and the skill needed to land with power. A fighter can have great power and not as many ko's as he should on his record. It depends on the level of opponents he's fighting, the style of his opponents, their chin, his own skill level and his own style. If we assume that everyone with great power should have as many knockouts as he should have according to his power than the champs would very most likely be the boxers with most power in the divisions and the top 10 of every division should roughly be in order of their power.
> There are many fighters with HUGE power who weren't even on Shavers level. Foreman once answered to the question who hits the hardest with someone I had to look up on boxrec to know who he was. Travis Walker is a huge puncher and he's a journeyman (in his last fights and in his last fights he looked old and shot) and doesn't have as many kos as he should


Mel Turnbow. MoJo's a legend for having massive power without the official record to back it up.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Duo said:


> *Hagler's left was like Frazier's right.*


:verysad


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm prepared to agree that Arguello's power is somewhat overrated, if by power we just mean raw force. I think the precision and timing in his punches played a big part in making him such a deadly puncher.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Bokaj said:


> I'm prepared to agree that Arguello's power is somewhat overrated, if by power we just mean raw force. I think the precision and timing in his punches played a big part in making him such a deadly puncher.


That would apply to a lot of fighters though. I think raw force, raw power or whatever you want to call it is sort of a meaningless term in boxing, or at least not easily quantifiable where so many other factors are involved in a punch like technique, timing, precision etc.


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## Bokaj (Jun 23, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> That would apply to a lot of fighters though. I think raw force, raw power or whatever you want to call it is sort of a meaningless term in boxing, or at least not easily quantifiable where so many other factors are involved in a punch like technique, timing, precision etc.


You definitely have a point. But at the same time I think it's fair to say that fighters like Baer and Foreman relied more heavily on raw force in their punches than some others with equally impressive KO records.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I think the Arguello debate is only meaningful if we agree that he has ever been given heaps of credit for his raw power.

Which he hasn't, as anyone ever describing his power has included just why he was so powerful, which was his technique, timing and accuracy.

So, I love Duo but I do not agree that Arguello's power is 'overrated' in any way. 

I would rank Arguello as one of the top 5 P4P punchers of all time. It's that overrated, come at me :yep


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

marvin hagler is overrated at puncher and monzon is underrated. i don´t think that norton can be considered overrated because i never did listen anyone talking about him at puncher, i think that he got underrated if anything. JOE FRAZIER IS UNDERRATED ABSOLUTELY 100%, i guarantee you that the left hook that he landed on ali in 1971 was a harder shot than the suzieq that marciano landed on walcott. frazier was 20 pounds heavier,bigger and faster than marciano and he had a better skill putting the weight of his body in his shots.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

overrated punchers above their natural weight classes, roberto duran above 130 , thomas hearns above 154 , julian jackson above 154,roy jones above 168, archie moore above 175(saying that he did hit harder than sonn yliston lmao). the power of marciano h2h is overrated, pfp for his size he was a monster but i am pretty sure that he did not hit harder than joe frazier h2h. james smith had overrated power for sure, he could not stop marvis frazier.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> overrated punchers above their natural weight classes, roberto duran above 130 , thomas hearns above 154 , julian jackson above 154,roy jones above 168, archie moore above 175(saying that he did hit harder than sonn yliston lmao). the power of marciano h2h is overrated, pfp for his size he was a monster but i am pretty sure that he did not hit harder than joe frazier h2h. james smith had overrated power for sure, he could not stop marvis frazier.


Duran above 130 :rofl

Jackson didn't score any brutal kayos above 154, nah?

Hearns didn't hit and hurt good fighters above 154, nah?

You are a troll.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I think the Arguello debate is only meaningful if we agree that he has ever been given heaps of credit for his raw power.
> 
> Which he hasn't, as anyone ever describing his power has included just why he was so powerful, which was his technique, timing and accuracy.
> 
> ...


Thoughtful dissent provokes discussion more than agreement, and I find I analyze and learn more when challenged to justify an edgy and controversial opinion. (ESB veterans don't seem to be buying my comments about Hagler and Arguello though. I posted too many contradictory submissions there about both Alexis and Marv for them to be taking me seriously in this thread.)


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

> james smith had overrated power for sure, he could not stop marvis frazier.


Bonecrusher's fifth round knockdown of Marvis gave him a broken jaw, the most serious injury of his boxing career. :confJust sayin.'


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Michael Spinks, although often considered to be a destructive puncher at 175lbs, really had to go to town on a lot of his opponents to get the stoppages. Ranquello, Sutherland, Willie Taylor, Rivadeneyra, etc. They all took truck loads of punishment before they wilted. I tend to think Spinks is talked of as a great puncher due to the Marvin Johnson one-punch KO, but we never really saw him take out another quality opponent like that again. Johnson was hit with a perfectly placed, perfectly timed punch that he didn't see coming. Spinks possessed good power, but he wasn't a one-punch killer.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Michael Spinks, although often considered to be a destructive puncher at 175lbs, really had to go to town on a lot of his opponents to get the stoppages. Ranquello, Sutherland, Willie Taylor, Rivadeneyra, etc. They all took truck loads of punishment before they wilted. I tend to think Spinks is talked of as a great puncher due to the Marvin Johnson one-punch KO, but we never really saw him take out another quality opponent like that again. Johnson was hit with a perfectly placed, perfectly timed punch that he didn't see coming. Spinks possessed good power, but he wasn't a one-punch killer.


His left hand was deadly against southpaws. Look how he wasted Wassaja, who was top quality.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Duo said:


> Bonecrusher's fifth round knockdown of Marvis gave him a broken jaw, the most serious injury of his boxing career. :confJust sayin.'


Stopped Spoon in a round. Just sayin.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Duran above 130 :rofl
> 
> Jackson didn't score any brutal kayos above 154, nah?
> 
> ...


lightweight is 135 pounds? .. in spain we talk about kg not pounds so it was a mistake, i am not a troll, i tell my opinion, you are a complete troll, a complete trash and i don´t know why a complete retarded loser like you is a moderator in this forum, a moderator should be a serious guy impartial, not a punk like you with a 13 years old brain.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> His left hand was deadly against southpaws. Look how he wasted Wassaja, who was top quality.


Indeed. That was a brutal stoppage.



> lightweight is 135 pounds? .. in spain we talk about kg not pounds so it was a mistake, i am not a troll, i tell my opinion, you are a complete troll, a complete trash and i don´t know why a complete retarded loser like you is a moderator in this forum, a moderator should be a serious guy impartial, not a punk like you with a 13 years old brain.


Flea Man is a moderator because he spends the vast majority of his time reading, watching, or talking about the sport of Boxing. He spends a lot of time on these forums. Who knows, you might be more knowledgeable then Flea Man, but it's hard to tell because most of us don't have the patience nor the time to decipher your posts.


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

Gunner said:


> There's a big difference between huge power, and the ability to DELIVER that huge power


Yes. This seems to be one of the most commonly struggled-with concepts in boxing. Like having different kinds of punch resistance problems and what "p4p" actually means in its common usage. Some people just never grasp it. There are journeymen most posters here have never heard of with power that is talked about with hushed tones of awe in gyms all over the place. Guys with 20% kayo ratios who have trainers saying "If you hold the mitts for him, it can be overwhelming." Matthysse, for instance, may never be considered a great fighter, and may never score a great one-punch knockout over a top notch guy with a top notch chin, but even away from cameras, I've heard through the grapevine that most who come into contact with him will admit being impressed by that if nothing else. He is a very, very powerful man for his size.


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

Boxed Ears said:


> Yes. This seems to be one of the most commonly struggled-with concepts in boxing. Like having different kinds of punch resistance problems and what "p4p" actually means in its common usage. Some people just never grasp it. There are journeymen most posters here have never heard of with power that is talked about with hushed tones of awe in gyms all over the place. Guys with 20% kayo ratios who have trainers saying "If you hold the mitts for him, it can be overwhelming." Matthysse, for instance, may never be considered a great fighter, and may never score a great one-punch knockout over a top notch guy with a top notch chin, but even away from cameras, I've heard through the grapevine that most who come into contact with him will admit being impressed by that if nothing else. He is a very, very powerful man for his size.


seriously, damn good post. Burt has said Tiger Jack Fox, who is known as a puncher, was one of the most awkward uncoordinated people to ever step foot in a ring but could knock out a fucking tank. Another prominent poster has discussed Bert Lytell's reputation in the gym as a monster. Some guys just have the power, can't use it


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> lightweight is 135 pounds? .. in spain we talk about kg not pounds so it was a mistake, i am not a troll, i tell my opinion, you are a complete troll, a complete trash and i don´t know why a complete retarded loser like you is a moderator in this forum, a moderator should be a serious guy impartial, not a punk like you with a 13 years old brain.


Ahhh so you meant 130 KILOS! That makes much more sense.....

I was voted as a moderator by posters. They know I don't let idiots swan around being cunts.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Ahhh so you meant 130 KILOS! That makes much more sense.....
> 
> I was voted as a moderator by posters. They know I don't let idiots swan around being cunts.


not, dumbass.. simply i work with kg so i was not sure about the equivalent weight in pounds..


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

jorodz said:


> seriously, damn good post. Burt has said Tiger Jack Fox, who is known as a puncher, was one of the most awkward uncoordinated people to ever step foot in a ring but could knock out a fucking tank. Another prominent poster has discussed Bert Lytell's reputation in the gym as a monster. Some guys just have the power, can't use it


Jameel McCline is a similar type of fighter. Considered to be hugely powerful by his gym mates but clams up in the ring and can't deliver that power effectively. The few times he was able to he did some serious damage. Sam Peter?

Going a bit off topic though.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

Tommy Morrison's power gets a wee bit overrated I feel, though he still had one of the most picture perfect left hooks ever. The way some people talk about him though it seems he could knock out anyone he hits flush with it, and that wasn't the case.


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> His left hand was deadly against southpaws. Look how he wasted Wassaja, who was top quality.


Mike's right uppercut off the ropes sounded like a shotgun blast off Jerry Celestine's head.

So far, we've talked about his multiple hooks turning Wassaja into a bobble-head doll, his hooker-cut (set up by a deflating right to the body), laying out Marvin Johnson (while "Another One Bites the Dust" played tastelessly over the PA), and the right uppercut which nearly turned Celestine celestial. The JINX itself hasn't even been mentioned.

While we're at it, Michael's jab splashed Ranquello's face into a crimson masterpiece.

The Marvin Johnson knockout simply overshadows everything else. Everybody who watched his entire career knows that he could unload the finisher from either hand at any time once he had a chance to get warmed up, and whenever that sleeper did not make an appearance by the final bell, he was the one who always got his hand raised anyway.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Duo said:


> While we're at it, Michael's jab splashed Ranquello's face into a crimson masterpiece.


There was a thread in the General not too long ago discussing great jabbing displays. I posted Spinks-Ranquello.



> The Marvin Johnson knockout simply overshadows everything else. Everybody who watched his entire career knows that he could unload the finisher from either hand at any time once he had a chance to get warmed up, and whenever that sleeper did not make an appearance by the final bell, he was the one who always got his hand raised anyway.


The Marvin Johnson knockout definitely overshadowed the rest of Michael's arsenal and I also think it caused people to overstate his one-punch knockout power. It's understandable, Johnson was as tough as they come and had gone to hell and back with Saad Muhammad, not once but twice. It was about as aesthetically pleasing as a knockout as one could hope to see and it came against a fighter who was known for his ability to absorb punishment. It's understandable. But if you look at Spinks' reign at 175lbs, he didn't consistently knock fighters out with single shots. The majority of them sustained beatings.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Tommy Morrison's power gets a wee bit overrated I feel, though he still had one of the most picture perfect left hooks ever. The way some people talk about him though it seems he could knock out anyone he hits flush with it, and that wasn't the case.


no, the power of morrison is not overrated, he was a huge puncher, rated by thomas like a harder puncher than tyson shot for shot


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> no, the power of morrison is not overrated, he was a huge puncher, rated by thomas like a harder puncher than tyson shot for shot


i knew you'd pounce on that :cheers i wish morrison had that one signature win over an elite fighter. foreman was great but if he had fought lewis when the fight was scheduled and knocked him out (it's possible) there wouldn't be so many question marks


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

> no, the power of morrison is not overrated, he was a huge puncher, rated by thomas like a harder puncher than tyson shot for shot


Mercer said Morrison hit him so hard that Ray was farting in the ring. Mercer's a pretty decent authority on the punching power of his opponents, and seemed to rate Tommy over Lennox, Bert Cooper, Holyfield, Holmes and Witherspoon. (I don't recall him also specifically rating Tommy over Wlad and Briggs, but he was past 40 when they stopped him, so I wouldn't disregard Mercer if he did rate Morrison's power over Wlad's and Shannon's as well.)

Tommy was never really able to get the traction he needed to tee off on Foreman. Yes, he hit George with good shots, but Foreman was always shoving him away, forcing Morrison on the back foot, and giving Tommy no choice but to punch and run. I don't believe Morrison ever really had the chance to get in that one really big shot Cooney moved Foreman with near the end of their opening round. (Gerry, being taller than George, had the height and reach to land that shot on Foreman, even though he was slower than Tommy.)


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Duo said:


> Mercer said Morrison hit him so hard that Ray was farting in the ring. Mercer's a pretty decent authority on the punching power of his opponents, and seemed to rate Tommy over Lennox, Bert Cooper, Holyfield, Holmes and Witherspoon. *(I don't recall him also specifically rating Tommy over Wlad and Briggs, but he was past 40 when they stopped him, so I wouldn't disregard Mercer if he did rate Morrison's power over Wlad's and Shannon's as well.)*
> 
> Tommy was never really able to get the traction he needed to tee off on Foreman. Yes, he hit George with good shots, but Foreman was always shoving him away, forcing Morrison on the back foot, and giving Tommy no choice but to punch and run. I don't believe Morrison ever really had the chance to get in that one really big shot Cooney moved Foreman with near the end of their opening round. (Gerry, being taller than George, had the height and reach to land that shot on Foreman, even though he was slower than Tommy.)


http://www.boxingscene.com/boxingscene-exclusive-ray-mercer-interview--1787










Guess that shot from Wladimir to the temple had some sort of analgesic on Mercer.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> no, the power of morrison is not overrated, he was a huge puncher, rated by thomas like a harder puncher than tyson shot for shot


Shot for shot? You mean every shot? Then he was definitely overrated. Tyson clearly hit harder with his right hand.

Morrison had a wicked left hook and could punch ferociously in combination as well, but he's consistently brought up as one of the hardest punchers ever and I don't think he quite merits that accolade.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

It's Ovah said:


> Shot for shot? You mean every shot? Then he was definitely overrated. Tyson clearly hit harder with his right hand.
> 
> Morrison had a wicked left hook and could punch ferociously in combination as well, but he's consistently brought up as one of the hardest punchers ever and I don't think he quite merits that accolade.







Ruddock's powers of recovery were pretty scary. I'm convinced he would have gotten up against Lewis as well had the referee not waved it off.

The Morrison stoppage was bullshit. There was only 10 seconds left before the end of the round and Morrison wasn't landing all that cleanly with his flurries. Morrison got very lucky there. He'd have been pretty tired coming out for the 7th.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Shot for shot? You mean every shot? Then he was definitely overrated. Tyson clearly hit harder with his right hand.
> 
> Morrison had a wicked left hook and could punch ferociously in combination as well, but he's consistently brought up as one of the hardest punchers ever and I don't think he quite merits that accolade.


NO HE DID NOT HIT CLEARLY HARDER, pinklon thommas fought both men and he said that morrison did hit harder, so i will take the word of a guy who took shots from both men... plus morrison did hurt ruddock with a single shot much more than tyson did with a single shot


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Ruddock's powers of recovery were pretty scary. I'm convinced he would have gotten up against Lewis as well had the referee not waved it off.
> 
> The Morrison stoppage was bullshit. There was only 10 seconds left before the end of the round and Morrison wasn't landing all that cleanly with his flurries. Morrison got very lucky there. He'd have been pretty tired coming out for the 7th.


yes yes, ruddock won by ko in the 7 actually..


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> yes yes, ruddock won by ko in the 7 actually..


I don't know, I'm fairly sure it ended in the 6th round. The referee was overzealous with his standing 8 count, and later on with the stoppage. I can't say for sure what would have happened had the fight gone to the 7th round but I do know it shouldn't have been stopped with 10 seconds to go in the 6th. Morrison wasn't landing all that regularly or all that cleanly. Poor officiating.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> NO HE DID NOT HIT CLEARLY HARDER, pinklon thommas fought both men and he said that morrison did hit harder, so i will take the word of a guy who took shots from both men... plus morrison did hurt ruddock with a single shot much more than tyson did with a single shot


YES HE DID CLEARLY HIT HARDER!!! WITH HIS RIGHT HAND!!!! Give me a vid showing Morrison repeatedly one shotting guys with his right and I might consider conceding the point.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> YES HE DID CLEARLY HIT HARDER!!! WITH HIS RIGHT HAND!!!! Give me a vid showing Morrison repeatedly one shotting guys with his right and I might consider conceding the point.


blablablabla...
tyson had a harder right hand than morrison but the left hook of morrison was a harder single shot than any shot from tyson. morrison smashed ruddock with a single left hook, tyson never could do it with his right hand vs ruddock, not like that.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

tyson had a wider arsenal of blows of course, he was the better puncer, but i am talking about power with his best shot.. morrison did hit harder


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Old Foreman's power is horribly overrated. The bottom line is, he would've knocked more people out if it were so great. He knocked out a fragile-chinned Moorer, a coked-out mess in Bert Cooper, and a washed up coke-head/alcoholic in Cooney. That's one notable knock out in my book. John Ruiz level power if we're going off stats.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> Old Foreman's power is horribly overrated. The bottom line is, he would've knocked more people out if it were so great. He knocked out a fragile-chinned Moorer, a coked-out mess in Bert Cooper, and a washed up coke-head/alcoholic in Cooney. That's one notable knock out in my book. John Ruiz level power if we're going off stats.


overrated? haha he was clearly the hardest puncher around in the 80s and 90s, the problem is that he was old and slow and he could not land in the key point. horrible mention.. you are clearly a foreman hater, probably you would say that prime foreman was overrated also but then million of people would be against you so you will not say it..


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> blablablabla...
> tyson had a harder right hand than morrison but the left hook of morrison was a harder single shot than any shot from tyson. morrison smashed ruddock with a single left hook, tyson never could do it with his right hand vs ruddock, not like that.


I'm not being funny, but Razor literally ran into a Morrison left hook that he didn't see coming and he still only took a 4-5 count. Ruddock would never have been that careless in the ring with Tyson. He would have likely took a 10 count if he had.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I'm not being funny, but Razor literally ran into a Morrison left hook that he didn't see coming and he still only took a 4-5 count. *Ruddock would never have been that careless in the ring with Tyson. He would have likely took a 10 count if he had.*


facts vs speculation.. i win...


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> overrated? haha he was clearly the hardest puncher around in the 80s and 90s, the problem is that he was old and slow and he could not land in the key point. horrible mention.. you are clearly a foreman hater, probably you would say that prime foreman was overrated also but then million of people would be against you so you will not say it..


Hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s? What do you base that on? Certainly not results.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> blablablabla...
> tyson had a harder right hand than morrison but the left hook of morrison was a harder single shot than any shot from tyson. morrison smashed ruddock with a single left hook, tyson never could do it with his right hand vs ruddock, not like that.


Tyson faced a better, more durable version of Rudduck, one that hadn't been battered by Tyson himself and Lewis. Rudduck clearly wasn't the same after those losses.


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> overrated? haha he was clearly the hardest puncher around in the 80s and 90s, the problem is that he was old and slow and he could not land in the key point. horrible mention.. you are clearly a foreman hater, probably you would say that prime foreman was overrated also but then million of people would be against you so you will not say it..


the hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s is a bit of a stretch, even if you're just talking heavyweights. Old Foreman still had the power but not the power of his youth i'd say. The moorer KO is great and he had many awesome knockouts in his second incarnation (the Coetzee one is brutal even if it's a TKO, he shattered that fuckers nose and nearly killed him). Have said that, I think you'd have a very tough argument saying that old foreman was a harder hitter than Tyson or Lewis. Lewis would he hit his stride and committed to hurting his opponents was a monster and tyson was...well tyson. Old Foreman still had the power but just not as much. If he did, Holyfield wouldn't have been standing at the end of that fight


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

jorodz said:


> the hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s is a bit of a stretch, even if you're just talking heavyweights. Old foreman still had the power but not the power of his youth i'd say. The moorer ko is great and he had many awesome knockouts in his second incarnation (the coetzee one is brutal even if it's a tko, he shattered that fuckers nose and nearly killed him). Have said that, i think you'd have a very tough argument saying that old foreman was a harder hitter than tyson or lewis. Lewis would he hit his stride and committed to hurting his opponents was a monster and tyson was...well tyson. Old foreman still had the power but just not as much. If he did, holyfield wouldn't have been standing at the end of that fight


evander said that old foreman did hit harder than anyone that he fought ever (sparring or real fight), cosidering that he faced the elite... Tyson,lewis,bowe (tua sparring), bert cooper... Yes.. Foreman was the hardest puncher in his 40s, foreman had the ultimate punch, even in his 40s simply he was not fast enough to land it.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

It's Ovah said:


> Hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s? What do you base that on? Certainly not results.


EVANDER HOLYFIELD.. HIS WORD ... HE FACED THE ELITE PUNCHERS OF THE ERA... LEWIS, TYSON, (TUA SPARRING),BERT COOPER, BOWE.. HE SAID THAT FOREMAN DID HIT THE HARDEST...NOW TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE...:hi:


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> tyson faced a better, more durable version of rudduck, one that hadn't been battered by tyson himself and lewis. Rudduck clearly wasn't the same after those losses.


i am very tired to listen this crap tommy.. Ruddock was magically more durable when he faced tyson? Hahah please.. Don´t make me laugh...


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> i am very tired to listen this crap tommy.. Ruddock was magically more durable when he faced tyson? Hahah please.. Don´t make me laugh...


So are you pretending that knockouts do not change fighters? They certainly do.

Rudduck endured 2 beatings against Tyson and then got sparked out by Lewis. Plenty of fighters in the past have lost durability/punch resistance as soon as they get knocked out/received a beating. There's nothing magical about it.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

heavy_hands said:


> i am very tired to listen this crap tommy.. Ruddock was magically more durable when he faced tyson? Hahah please.. Don´t make me laugh...


Tommy didn't really stop Ruddock though, did he? That was the referee.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> EVANDER HOLYFIELD.. HIS WORD ... HE FACED THE ELITE PUNCHERS OF THE ERA... LEWIS, TYSON, (TUA SPARRING),BERT COOPER, BOWE.. HE SAID THAT FOREMAN DID HIT THE HARDEST...NOW TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE...:hi:


He doesn't mention Foreman in all interviews.
http://www.boxingnews24.com/2011/01/evander-holyfield-interview/
Chip Mitchell: Okay, the next few questions come from boxing fans who seek answers for historical reference. Michael Ferguson in Concord, VA asks who the hardest puncher you've faced is. In terms of consistent hard punches, not just a single shot&#8230;

Evander Holyfield: Well consistently getting hit hard, I would say Riddick Bowe. But then again, it's because he caught me with them shots! When you are talking about how hard somebody hits, actually, you have to get hit by them. You can't just go by what you see somebody do to somebody else. Like I say, I see Mike Tyson hit a lot of people hard. He just didn't get me with them shots, I was able to have good defense. But it doesn't mean he don't hit hard. But Riddick Bowe on a consistent basis of being hit, I was hit more by him more than I guess any heavyweight. Hard shots.

His own site:
Holyfield certainly has been hit before. As an aggressive, come forward fighter he has walked directly into the line of fire of some of the sports biggest punchers. Whilst destructive forces like Mike Tyson and George Foreman have been unable to make a significant dent in him, he credits a familiar figure with landing the hardest shot he has taken in the ring.

"When I fought Lewis in the second fight, I had him hurt! He was wobbling back and I was pressuring him and he hit me with an uppercut. Whoooo. I had him. I had him!" laughs Holyfield. "He threw that uppercut that hit me on the chin and it changed things. I wasn't able to finish how I wanted to after that good right uppercut."

http://www.evanderholyfield.com/2012/01/19/livefight-interview-evander-holyfield-part-2/

Boxers are often contradictionary who they mention as being the hardest hitter


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

NoNeck said:


> Old Foreman's power is horribly overrated. The bottom line is, he would've knocked more people out if it were so great. He knocked out a fragile-chinned Moorer, a coked-out mess in Bert Cooper, and a washed up coke-head/alcoholic in Cooney. That's one notable knock out in my book. John Ruiz level power if we're going off stats.


Stats? Use your eyes.


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## Klompton (Jun 27, 2012)

Its laughable to pretend that fixed fight foreman was the hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s and yes the beatings that Tyson laid on Ruddock changed his career. Tyson softened him up big time. Ruddock would have been better served not taking the rematch. He may have had some room to argue that he was stopped a little too soon (debateable) against Tyson in the first fight but he wasnt winning that fight, not even close.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

dyna said:


> He doesn't mention Foreman in all interviews.
> http://www.boxingnews24.com/2011/01/evander-holyfield-interview/
> Chip Mitchell: Okay, the next few questions come from boxing fans who seek answers for historical reference. Michael Ferguson in Concord, VA asks who the hardest puncher you've faced is. In terms of consistent hard punches, not just a single shot&#8230;
> 
> ...







yes he did mention it..


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> yes he did mention it..


I said he doesn't mention Foreman in all interviews, not that he never mentioned him


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Klompton said:


> Its laughable to pretend that fixed fight foreman was the hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s and yes the beatings that Tyson laid on Ruddock changed his career. Tyson softened him up big time. Ruddock would have been better served not taking the rematch. He may have had some room to argue that he was stopped a little too soon (debateable) against Tyson in the first fight but he wasnt winning that fight, not even close.


I don't know why FACTS like these are ignored by heavy hands... Plenty of fighters have had their careers destroyed by knockouts/beatings. Roy Jones Jr was never the same after two consecutive knockouts by Tarver & Johnson. that is only one example. Meldrick Taylor is a big one.


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Stats? Use your eyes.


Lol


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## NoNeck (Jun 7, 2013)

See, this is what I'm talking about. If you stay up all night doing coke and then stand in front of him without moving your head or putting your hands up, George Foreman hit very hard. Of course, Buttetbean would also have scary power under those circumstances--watch him nail Bart Gunn.

Lennox, Tyson, and Ruddock all had far superior power duing that time.


heavy_hands said:


> overrated? haha he was clearly the hardest puncher around in the 80s and 90s, the problem is that he was old and slow and he could not land in the key point. horrible mention.. you are clearly a foreman hater, probably you would say that prime foreman was overrated also but then million of people would be against you so you will not say it..


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

jorodz said:


> the hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s is a bit of a stretch, even if you're just talking heavyweights. Old Foreman still had the power but not the power of his youth i'd say. The moorer KO is great and he had many awesome knockouts in his second incarnation (the Coetzee one is brutal even if it's a TKO, he shattered that fuckers nose and nearly killed him). Have said that, I think you'd have a very tough argument saying that old foreman was a harder hitter than Tyson or Lewis. Lewis would he hit his stride and committed to hurting his opponents was a monster and tyson was...well tyson. Old Foreman still had the power but just not as much. *If he did, Holyfield wouldn't have been standing at the end of that fight*[/QUOTE :dealAmen Brother Jorodz!!! I've said it many times....Young George Foreman would have massacred Holyfield...it would have started somewhat competitively, but would have ended like the Norton fight (one of my favorite ko's of all time)....Young George would have been like a hungry lion vs Evander.


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## heavy_hands (Jun 6, 2013)

NoNeck said:


> See, this is what I'm talking about. If you stay up all night doing coke and then stand in front of him without moving your head or putting your hands up, George Foreman hit very hard. Of course, Buttetbean would also have scary power under those circumstances--watch him nail Bart Gunn.
> *
> Lennox, Tyson, and Ruddock all had far superior power duing that tim*e.


no, foreman had more power, they were younger so they would land more frecuently but foreman had more power.. don´t change the topic , we are talking about who was the hardest puncher, not the best combination puncher , the faster or the most skilled puncher... foreman had more power period.


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## It's Ovah (Jun 6, 2013)

heavy_hands said:


> no, foreman had more power, they were younger so they would land more frecuently but foreman had more power.. don´t change the topic , we are talking about who was the hardest puncher, not the best combination puncher , the faster or the most skilled puncher... foreman had more power period.


Based on what in-ring footage?


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## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

Phantom said:


> jorodz said:
> 
> 
> > the hardest puncher of the 80s and 90s is a bit of a stretch, even if you're just talking heavyweights. Old Foreman still had the power but not the power of his youth i'd say. The moorer KO is great and he had many awesome knockouts in his second incarnation (the Coetzee one is brutal even if it's a TKO, he shattered that fuckers nose and nearly killed him). Have said that, I think you'd have a very tough argument saying that old foreman was a harder hitter than Tyson or Lewis. Lewis would he hit his stride and committed to hurting his opponents was a monster and tyson was...well tyson. Old Foreman still had the power but just not as much. *If he did, Holyfield wouldn't have been standing at the end of that fight*[/QUOTE :dealAmen Brother Jorodz!!! I've said it many times....Young George Foreman would have massacred Holyfield...it would have started somewhat competitively, but would have ended like the Norton fight (one of my favorite ko's of all time)....Young George would have been like a hungry lion vs Evander.
> ...


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## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Just compare this example of a young, fit, near prime Jerry Quarry (oh how I wish the Quarry-Mathis vid existed)'....




...
with this tired, flabby, puffy, shot specimen here..




...
I just know that the younger, fitter, quicker, vindictive counter pinching Quarry would have made things far more interesting vs Ken Norton...just sayin...


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Phantom said:


> Just compare this example of a young, fit, near prime Jerry Quarry (oh how I wish the Quarry-Mathis vid existed)'....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good point. I always thought that a prime Quarry would have maybe even knocked out Norton.


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## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Phantom said:


> ...
> 
> Jeez - Forget Quarry for a second:
> Remember just how good Howard Cosel was? !


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## Duo (Jun 14, 2012)

Phantom said:


> Just compare this example of a young, fit, near prime Jerry Quarry (oh how I wish the Quarry-Mathis vid existed)'....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jerry buckled Norton with a right at 1:46, then nearly decked Ken with a second right at 1:47, just as Johnny LoBianco is moving in to stop it (causing the referee to instantly retreat). Norton went on record as saying the hardest punch he delivered in his career was the right uppercut which cut JQ open. Slo-mo review shows Ken got everything into that uppercut, but it didn't buckle Jerry, who had none of the defensive elusiveness he beguiled Spencer with, and Norton hit him with everything.

JQ may have been Norton's career best performance, yet Jerry was still able to buckle him twice near the end. I see no way for Ken to withstand Jerry's firepower if JQ was anything like he was with Spencer. Jerry also moved well on Thad and Ken showed with Ali and Holmes that he didn't pull the trigger on moving targets. I can't see JQ standing still long enough for Norton to set and uncork his cut producing uppercut if Jerry's at his filmed best.

Quarry-Mathis is a holy grail of fight footage. We can extrapolate from the complete footage of Buster's previous outing with Chuvalo that Jerry virtually shut out the very best version of Buster who ever stepped foot in a ring. (We have the entirety of Mathis-Chuvalo and Frazier-Quarry I from MSG, so maybe hope can still spring eternal that Quarry-Mathis will turn up one day.)


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## jonnytightlips (Jun 14, 2012)

Keith Thurman. Hasn't properly stopped anyone in years.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

jonnytightlips said:


> Keith Thurman. Hasn't properly stopped anyone in years.


yeah this is true - its a shame because for a period of time I was a big fan of his. He looked good when he outboxed porter and garcia.

Injuries and inactivity seemed to screw up his career and by the time he fought Pacquiao he wasnt the same fighter as before, although he performed well vs Pacquiao.


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## jonnytightlips (Jun 14, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> yeah this is true - its a shame because for a period of time I was a big fan of his. He looked good when he outboxed porter and garcia.
> 
> Injuries and inactivity seemed to screw up his career and by the time he fought Pacquiao he wasnt the same fighter as before, although he performed well vs Pacquiao.


The injuries and time out of the ring killed his momentum. I was a big fan too but all the inactivity just fucking annoyed me even though it probably couldn't have been helped. Thurman often says what fight fans want to hear but not being able to get in the ring to show it wears thin.


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## Jrome412 (Jul 16, 2020)

Bute and Lacy


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