# Sugar Ray Leonard is okay with people thinking that Floyd is better than him



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

SRL is extremely humble and honest. About catching Duran at the right time. About what his brother said to him and that SRL as a fighter can ko Floyd but but in reality he probably wouldn't win.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

When they got in the ring the humble Leonard will be gone, and Floyd would be screwed


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Would be more competitive than his fight with his daddy but SRL is still too slick for Floyd.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> When they got in the ring the humble Leonard will be gone, and Floyd would be screwed


Yeah i don't know about that. Floyd is just overall better and SRL doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd and imo is outgunned.


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## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

@Hands of Iron


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

rjjfan said:


> Would be more competitive than his fight with his daddy but *SRL is still too slick for Floyd*.


How can anyone be too slick for Floyd?


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah i don't know about that. Floyd is just overall better and SRL doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd and imo is outgunned.


Actually Leonard is one of the most lethal finishers in boxing history. He might not have the one punch KO power of a Hearns, but if that Mosley-Floyd moment happened and it was Leonard-Floyd instead.. Floyd will be dead. Not knocked out dead, but dead dead. Carried out dead.

Floyd on the other hand do NOT have the power to even annoy Leonard, much less hurt him. Leonard will literally be eating up Floyd's punches like candy. That is the issue with Floyd against other TRUE WELTERWEIGHT ATG'S.. he just doesn't have the power to crack any of their chins. He'll just be beaten into a wide UD(or KO in the case of Hearns) Loss by the true welter/SWW greats like Leonard,Hearns,Mccallum,etc etc etc..........

Floyd have a much better chance against Duran.. since Duran wasn't really a true Welter either.

First off Floyd's not 5'8.. That's a myth and we all know it. Floyd's 5'8 in SHOES. That's not really 5'8.. shoes add 1-3 inches(depending on the shoes).
Floyd's a realistic 5'6 1/2 or 5'7 at most. Leonard is a legit 5'10. Leonard is also just a much bigger fighter overall. Floyd is a great little man, Leonard compared to Floyd is a great big man and Floyd have no styles advantage over Leonard.

Leonard wide UD...........


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

It's really not fair to Little Floyd to be compared in H2H match ups against actual Welters and Super Welters.


Floyd is like a Light Heavy Weight that went up to Heavyweight and did really well.. but any TRUE Heavyweight or Super Heavyweight great will beat him.
Floyd is an 'ATG Light Heavyweight' that managed to have a 'very good Heavyweight Career'............ but he ain't no Heavyweight.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Actually Leonard is one of the most lethal finishers in boxing history. He might not have the one punch KO power of a Hearns, but if that Mosley-Floyd moment happened and it was Leonard-Floyd instead.. Floyd will be dead. Not knocked out dead, but dead dead. Carried out dead.
> 
> Floyd on the other hand do NOT have the power to even annoy Leonard, much less hurt him. Leonard will literally be eating up Floyd's punches like candy. That is the issue with Floyd against other TRUE WELTERWEIGHT ATG'S.. he just doesn't have the power to crack any of their chins. He'll just be beaten into a wide UD(or KO in the case of Hearns) Loss by the true welter/SWW greats like Leonard,Hearns,Mccallum,etc etc etc..........
> 
> ...


Personally i think Shane hits harder than SRL. Holding onto a few moments where Floyd got clocked and stunned for about 3-5 secs to fully recover and dominate the rest of the round is not a solid enough argument to say SRL would finish Floyd. If thats the case then we could say that Duran outboxed SRL therefore Floyd would box SRL's ear off which is just as likely scenario if not more as the shane's shot.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Ali said hed never beat tyson, and tyson said hed never be able to beat Ali. Its just an old retired fighter showing respect to a younger fighter.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Leonard picked apart and stopped an equally brilliant defensive fighter in Benitez. He's not losing sleep over his chances against Floyd in the public imagination today.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah i don't know about that. *Floyd is just overall better and SRL* doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd _*and imo is outgunned.*_


Nope


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

That interview is old and Ray has said in others that he would knock Floyd out.
He respects Floyd's skill and ability and much as I think Floyd would go the distance,it's still a win for Ray.
Watch Ray at his very best and watch the head movement and fluidity.Floyd's tendency to throw single shots would be far less effective.
There are tonnes of interviews where Ray discusses Floyd.That's old shit.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Personally i think Shane hits harder than SRL. Holding onto a few moments where Floyd got clocked and stunned for about 3-5 secs to fully recover and dominate the rest of the round is not a solid enough argument to say SRL would finish Floyd. If thats the case then we could say that Duran outboxed SRL therefore Floyd would box SRL's ear off which is just as likely scenario if not more as the shane's shot.


Shane hit harder than Ray?
Go and watch SRL KO Bruce Finch and see the power he gets with minimal leverage and distance.
There's no point in even debating this matter because Floyd could go on TV and say Ray came in and sparred and whupped him and you'd still deny it.
Both the best of their generation and we'll never know,but the vast majority of experts who have seen both in their prime added to the fact that Floyd doesn't have a career defining win whilst SRL fought in maybe the greatest era ever and beat everyone who mattered will pick Ray.
It's not a slant on Floyd,it's just people's opinion and unfortunately,there are some posters whose opinions are taken less seriously than others.
Floyd has never beat anyone close to Ray's best wins and it's not Floyd's fault there is a serious lack of competition for him.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> SRL is extremely humble and honest. About catching Duran at the right time. About what his brother said to him and that SRL as a fighter can ko Floyd but but in reality he probably wouldn't win.


I never watched this time but when did Ray say he probably wouldn't win?
He said his brother said Floyd would win.Your post suggests Ray said it.I'll have to watch again.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

JMP said:


> @Hands of Iron





Bogotazo said:


> Leonard picked apart and stopped an equally brilliant defensive fighter in Benitez. He's not losing sleep over his chances against Floyd in the public imagination today.


Exactly. Three ATGs and a fourth lineal champ a class up with a combined record of 178-1 when he fought them, average age 25, in a span of 22 months. He utterly cleaned out a historically strong, historically rich division and won a Gold medal for his country. Still has his health and over $100 million dollars in the bank. Floyd will probably go broke and his best win is Corrales. What the hell does Leonard care seriously? :lol:


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Exactly. Three ATGs and a fourth lineal champ a class up with a combined record of 178-1 when he fought them, average age 25, in a span of 22 months. He utterly cleaned out a historically strong, historically rich division and won a Gold medal for his country. Still has his health and over $100 million dollars in the bank.* Floyd will probably go broke and his best win is Corrales.* What the hell does Leonard care seriously? :lol:


:rofl You can be so harsh sometimes. But I can't say dishonest.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> *Personally i think Shane hits harder than SRL.* Holding onto a few moments where Floyd got clocked and stunned for about 3-5 secs to fully recover and dominate the rest of the round is not a solid enough argument to say SRL would finish Floyd. If thats the case then we could say that Duran outboxed SRL therefore Floyd would box SRL's ear off which is just as likely scenario if not more as the shane's shot.


Shane is a fucking retard. Leonard would toy with that motherfucker and bury his ass. Lmfao.Shane.
We gonna compare SHANE to Sugar now?

You know how in America... cars have 'luxury divisions' and than the lower tier and lower tier etc etc etc...

Like Audi is the luxury division of Volkswagon etc?

Ray Leonard is the Luxury Division of Shane Mosley.

Mosley will get his fucking Volkswagon ass beaten to death.


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

I feel the new generation don't realize what a murderous beast SRL was in his prime. Of course he can box when the occasion befits it but he was a savage beast in his prime.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Shane hit harder than Ray?
> Go and watch SRL KO Bruce Finch and see the power he gets with minimal leverage and distance.
> There's no point in even debating this matter because Floyd could go on TV and say Ray came in and sparred and whupped him and you'd still deny it.
> Both the best of their generation and we'll never know,but the vast majority of experts who have seen both in their prime added to the fact that Floyd doesn't have a career defining win whilst SRL fought in maybe the greatest era ever and beat everyone who mattered will pick Ray.
> ...


People who are taken lightly are mostly in this room already and i'm just rounding up to get more so you want to go that direction? Especially how many pro boxers/trainers who thinks Floyd is the best? I guess some people on this forum are way to full of themselves.:verysad


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Shane is a fucking retard. Leonard would toy with that motherfucker and bury his ass. Lmfao.Shane.
> We gonna compare SHANE to Sugar now?
> 
> You know how in America... cars have 'luxury divisions' and than the lower tier and lower tier etc etc etc...
> ...


We were comparing punching power. Now I am suppose to dog Shane's power just bc he is in relation with Floyd bc he fought his ass. I forgot everyone Floyd fought is shit.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> People who are taken lightly are mostly in this room already and i'm just rounding up to get more so you want to go that direction? Especially how many pro boxers/trainers who thinks Floyd is the best? I guess some people on this forum are way to full of themselves.:verysad


Yeah.I want to go in that direction.
The two best posters on the forum as voted by the posters are here.If you can bring some of those pros and trainers feel free.
Let's go that way.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Exactly. Three ATGs and a fourth lineal champ a class up with a combined record of 178-1 when he fought them, average age 25, in a span of 22 months. He utterly cleaned out a historically strong, historically rich division and won a Gold medal for his country. Still has his health and over $100 million dollars in the bank. Floyd will probably go broke and his best win is Corrales. What the hell does Leonard care seriously? :lol:


I was hoping you'd still be up.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Yeah.I want to go in that direction.
> The two best posters on the forum as voted by the posters are here.If you can bring some of those pros and trainers feel free.
> Let's go that way.


LMAO ROFL. ok your "opinions" trumps boxers/trainers then. I forgot you are got the dick swapping award on this site.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

even SRL's "BRO" who SRL bragged about how he give him the strategy to beat Duran told his lil bro numerous of times that he can't beat Floyd. But yet you fools act like i'm crazy or don't know what i'm talking about.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

oh my god lmao


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hearns, SRR got big enough size advantage, reach, speed + POWER to ko Floyd with a couple of hits SRL doesn't, he would have to box Floyd. Duran have the power but lacks the speed/reach. SRL lacks the power.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

As far as catching Duran at the right time, well yeah he's probably my second favorite boxer ever and did have shit preparation for it. At the same time @Bogotazo @JMP He did enter the ring as the #1 P4P fighter in the sport, he _was_ 29 years old, he _was_ only five months removed from the greatest performance of his career and Leonard probably gets little to no credit for jumping right back into the ring against the guy who'd just handed him ass and shown he could outskill him from more than just close quarters (and Leonard FOUGHT like the proud all-time great he is). Judging from how Duran looked thereafter - far more rigid, less fluid in his defensive upperbody movement, diminished reflexes - I don't know that waiting would've elevated the win any more. I put it down with his 3rd or 4th best though due to the grievances even though he's the greatest guy on his record.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> LMAO ROFL. ok your "opinions" trumps boxers/trainers then. I forgot you are got the dick swapping award on this site.


Speak English boy!
And if you're going to try and ridicule my posts, at least use what I say instead of something I never said.
Now I really want to go in that direction .


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Hearns, SRR got big enough size advantage, reach, speed + POWER to ko Floyd with a couple of hits SRL doesn't, he would have to box Floyd. Duran have the power but lacks the speed/reach. SRL lacks the power.


If only that were true and these imaginary fantasy fights meant anything. Leonard lacked nothing from an offensive standpoint or where physical attributes are concerned, really. He had serious pop when he wanted to generate it; his speed, timing and variation was useful for taking rounds. He's right up there amongst the best, most complete boxer-punchers in history. His ability on film shows this, his record proves this.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)




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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Speak English boy!
> And if you're going to try and ridicule my posts, at least use what I say instead of something I never said.
> Now I really want to go in that direction .


Seriously. It is easy to squash your "my opinion is right bs". All i have to say is that i'm not the only who rate Floyd over SRL. I got boxers/trainers saying what i'm saying. You got your boyfriends and your "chkhookboxing cert"


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> If only that were true and these imaginary fantasy fights meant anything. Leonard lacked nothing from an offensive standpoint or where physical attributes are concerned, really. He had serious pop when he wanted to generate it; his speed, timing and variation was useful for taking rounds. He's right up there amongst the best, most complete boxer-punchers in history. His ability on film shows this, his record proves this.


I think SRL is a great fighter and one of the best resumes which i think tops Floyd on paper. Accomplishments? Floyd has surpassed him and i'm not knocking SRL.

SRL has always been a honest guy. This is not the first time that he admitted catching Duran at the right time. Not the first time that he admitted that he fought the wrong fight against Duran in their first fight. He even admitted that Hearns should've gotten the W instead of the draw.

SRL got one of the most impressive resumes on paper. Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Wilfred were all great fighters but in reality he only beaten Wilfred clearly in their prime. Duran and SRL? Hearns and SRL? Hagler and SRL? SRL benefited a lot from his popularity.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Had Hearns and Hagler been a more popular fighter? SRL's record wouldn't have much to brag about. He would be seen as the guy who fell short. Again i'm not trying to dog SRL but some of you need to hear some of this and pull your own head out of your ass.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Shane hit harder than Ray?
> Go and watch SRL KO Bruce Finch and see the power he gets with minimal leverage and distance.
> There's no point in even debating this matter because Floyd could go on TV and say Ray came in and sparred and whupped him and you'd still deny it.
> Both the best of their generation and we'll never know,but the vast majority of experts who have seen both in their prime added to the fact that Floyd doesn't have a career defining win whilst SRL fought in maybe the greatest era ever and beat everyone who mattered will pick Ray.
> ...


The whole punching power angle is mildly diabolical. The guy hurt, stopped or clean KO'ed at least a dozen world-rated fighters (some of them elite operators) over a span of 3+ years. Not even Hagler could walk through his shots and Ray's legs were already starting to go after the fourth.


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## KERRIGAN (Jul 25, 2012)

SRL would destroy Floyd.

Floyd doesn't have the offense to trouble Leonard.

Floyd doesn't body punch for shit.

Offensively Leonard could do it all and has a height, reach, speed & power advantage over Floyd.

Floyd has better defence than Leonard, but so did Benitez.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Seriously. It is easy to squash your "my opinion is right bs". All i have to say is that i'm not the only who rate Floyd over SRL. I got boxers/trainers saying what i'm saying. You got your boyfriends and your "chkhookboxing cert"


Stop saying I've said things I never boy.
Why don't you get all these trainers and pros you "got" to post here and while you're at it,why don't you give us a full technical breakdown of how Floyd is better than and beats Ray?
I'm giving my opinion as are you and others here.Unfortunately you've shown many times in the past that you are incapable of mature debate.
Boy.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Had Hearns and Hagler been a more popular fighter? SRL's record wouldn't have much to brag about. He would be seen as the guy who fell short. Again i'm not trying to dog SRL but some of you need to hear some of this and pull your own head out of your ass.


What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?


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## KERRIGAN (Jul 25, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?


He's saying that Leonard wouldn't have got the decision against Hagler and that the second fight with Hearns would have been a points victory to Hearns, rather than a Draw.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

KERRIGAN said:


> He's saying that Leonard wouldn't have got the decision against Hagler and that the second fight with Hearns would have been a points victory to Hearns, rather than a Draw.


Oh, thanks. You have great decoding skill.

Two fighters better than Floyd has ever faced who Leonard arguably lost to past his prime. What an underwhelming argument.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The whole punching power angle is mildly diabolical. The guy hurt, stopped or clean KO'ed at least a dozen world-rated fighters (some of them elite operators) over a span of 3+ years. Not even Hagler could walk through his shots and Ray's legs were already starting to go after the fourth.


Yeah but that was the 70's and 80's man.
Don't you know that means nothing to certain people? And Floyd could have held his own back then,but we'll never know and in all probability(and we're both Floyd fans) he wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as he is today.
Don't you just love how people talk about Leonard getting Hagler "old" when he himself was already 5 years past prime and Hagler was top 2 or 3 P4P?:lol:


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?


What he's saying is that he knows fuck all about boxing .You should know that by now my friend.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?


I thought he clearly put Hearns on queer street in the mid-rounds and clearly stopped him. Hearns is rated for his freakish attributes, power and boxing ability, not popularity. Hagler needn't of been in his prime (and I hadn't even mentioned him) to of lost while being a huge favorite going in and considered the best boxer in the sport. I rate that Hagler over any of Robinson's HOF Middleweight wins for example.


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## KERRIGAN (Jul 25, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Yeah but that was the 70's and 80's man.
> Don't you know that means nothing to certain people? And Floyd could have held his own back then,but we'll never know and in all probability(and we're both Floyd fans) he wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as he is today.
> Don't you just love how people talk about Leonard getting Hagler "old" when he himself was already 5 years past prime and Hagler was top 2 or 3 P4P?:lol:


Hagler did decline unbelievably in his last year or two, compared to where he was in 1982.

Leonard decided to fight Hagler after seeing how often Hagler got hit by Mugabe.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The whole punching power angle is mildly diabolical. The guy hurt, stopped or clean KO'ed at least a dozen world-rated fighters (some of them elite operators) over a span of 3+ years. Not even Hagler could walk through his shots and Ray's legs were already starting to go after the fourth.


Playing Devil's Advocate but this isn't exactly true. First, everyone he stopped of quality were chinny anyway, Benitez, Hearns, Kalule were all stopped multiple times either before or afterwards. PTF used Finch as an example, not exactly show casing anything given how many times he's been stopped even before Leonard. He couldn't even hurt the naturally smaller Duran who was decked a few times by De Jesus at a lower weight. Hagler was never troubled in the slightest by Leonard and he most certainly walked through his shots when he wanted to.

Floyd has shown to have at least a good beard if not an exceptional one. In any case I don't see a KO going either way. Just like I don't see a prime Floyd losing multiple rounds to the likes of the open handed, slapping Kalule. I mean people say how well Cotto did against Floyd when in reality won no more than 4 rounds out of 12. It's a tough fight either way, I can't pick a winner because I can't imagine how they'd do against each other.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

KERRIGAN said:


> Hagler did decline unbelievably in his last year or two, compared to where he was in 1982.
> 
> Leonard decided to fight Hagler after seeing how often Hagler got hit by Mugabe.


I'm not denying that mate,but he was three years out of the ring himself(unless you count Quincy Taylor and the others who were allowed to wear headgear and smaller gloves whilst Ray was not) and Duran had also advised him to fight Hagler.The "Hagler was old" argument means nothing because Ray had peaked 5 years previously and was declining before Hagler.
Add to that Leonard has never denied any of his psychological tricks,yet people talk as if he was pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate but this isn't exactly true. First, everyone he stopped of quality were chinny anyway, Benitez, Hearns, Kalule were all stopped multiple times either before or afterwards. PTF used Finch as an example, not exactly show casing anything given how many times he's been stopped even before Leonard. He couldn't even hurt the naturally smaller Duran who was decked a few times by De Jesus at a lower weight. Hagler was never troubled in the slightest by Leonard and he most certainly walked through his shots when he wanted to.
> 
> Floyd has shown to have at least a good beard if not an exceptional one. In any case I don't see a KO going either way. Just like I don't see a prime Floyd losing multiple rounds to the likes of the open handed, slapping Kalule. I mean people say how well Cotto did against Floyd when in reality won no more than 4 rounds out of 12. It's a tough fight either way, I can't pick a winner because I can't imagine how they'd do against each other.


Duran's chin is incredible, no way you can use that against Leonard.

Hearns' chin also gets unfairly criticized when he went up against a fair amount of punchers. Hagler was a Middleweight who fought like a man possessed and tore into Hearns, Barkley was a sizeable Middleweight. That effectively leaves Leonard's power being on par with ranked Middleweights at 147. Benitez also went 12 against Hearns. and broke his angle against Moore (which is what led to the stoppage), and wasn't stopped again until 86.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate but this isn't exactly true. First, everyone he stopped of quality were chinny anyway, Benitez, Hearns, Kalule were all stopped multiple times either before or afterwards. PTF used Finch as an example, not exactly show casing anything given how many times he's been stopped even before Leonard. He couldn't even hurt the naturally smaller Duran who was decked a few times by De Jesus at a lower weight. Hagler was never troubled in the slightest by Leonard and he most certainly walked through his shots when he wanted to.
> 
> Floyd has shown to have at least a good beard if not an exceptional one. In any case I don't see a KO going either way. Just like I don't see a prime Floyd losing multiple rounds to the likes of the open handed, slapping Kalule. I mean people say how well Cotto did against Floyd when in reality won no more than 4 rounds out of 12. It's a tough fight either way, I can't pick a winner because I can't imagine how they'd do against each other.


I only used Finch because of the short punches in response to the point about Mosley having more power mate.
And I'm with you about it being a very hard fight to pick mainly because Floyd hasn't beat anyone who is rated anywhere near SRL's best wins and he's never fought anyone as versatile either.
I also hate that people use one shaky half round against Mosley and an 8-4 at best for Cotto as examples of some kind of vulnerability.Since Floyd went to 147 and over only Oscar has been competitive.
If that's the best they have against Floyd I'm sure he'll take it all day long.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate but this isn't exactly true. First, everyone he stopped of quality were chinny anyway, Benitez, Hearns, Kalule were all stopped multiple times either before or afterwards. PTF used Finch as an example, not exactly show casing anything given how many times he's been stopped even before Leonard. He couldn't even hurt the naturally smaller Duran who was decked a few times by De Jesus at a lower weight. Hagler was never troubled in the slightest by Leonard and he most certainly walked through his shots when he wanted to.
> 
> Floyd has shown to have at least a good beard if not an exceptional one. In any case I don't see a KO going either way. Just like I don't see a prime Floyd losing multiple rounds to the likes of the open handed, slapping Kalule. I mean people say how well Cotto did against Floyd when in reality won no more than 4 rounds out of 12. It's a tough fight either way, I can't pick a winner because I can't imagine how they'd do against each other.


Hardly the featherfist though, was he? He wouldn't be stopping anybody at the world level without a good amount of pop. I'm not subscribing to idea he KOs Floyd. He certainly has enough to both hurt him and make him fight negatively enough to where it'll be task to clearly take the amount of rounds he'd need to win. DeJesus actually possessed a particularly mean left hook but never actually hurt Duran nor was Roberto anywhere near the fighter he'd become from '77-'80 defensively in my mind. Leonard certainly hit him with more shots to give him pause than DeJesus ever did. Kalule was drained to shit by the time he fought Moore (and later McCallum), ask Xpert Flea Man. He was also certainly more technically skilled than anybody Floyd's beat at the times fought, particularly in the footwork department.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hardly the featherfist though, was he? He wouldn't be stopping anybody at the world level without a good amount of pop. I'm not subscribing to idea he KOs Floyd. He certainly has enough to both hurt him and make him fight negatively enough to where it'll be task to clearly take the amount of rounds he'd need to win. DeJesus actually possessed a particularly mean left hook but never actually hurt Duran nor was Roberto anywhere near the fighter he'd become from '77-'80 defensively in my mind. Leonard certainly hit him with more shots to give him pause than DeJesus ever did. Kalule was drained to shit by the time he fought Moore (and later McCallum), ask Xpert Flea Man.* He was also certainly more technically skilled than anybody Floyd's beat at the times fought, particularly in the footwork department.*


Really, the burden of proof is not on Leonard to prove he'd beat Floyd. It's the other way around.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate but this isn't exactly true. First, everyone he stopped of quality were chinny anyway, Benitez, Hearns, Kalule were all stopped multiple times either before or afterwards. PTF used Finch as an example, not exactly show casing anything given how many times he's been stopped even before Leonard. He couldn't even hurt the naturally smaller Duran who was decked a few times by De Jesus at a lower weight. Hagler was never troubled in the slightest by Leonard and he most certainly walked through his shots when he wanted to.
> 
> Floyd has shown to have at least a good beard if not an exceptional one. In any case I don't see a KO going either way. Just like I don't see a prime Floyd losing multiple rounds to the likes of the open handed, slapping Kalule. I mean people say how well Cotto did against Floyd when in reality won no more than 4 rounds out of 12. It's a tough fight either way, I can't pick a winner because I can't imagine how they'd do against each other.


Also,if memory serves me correctly,Leonard lost 2-3 rounds maximum before he stopped Kalule.That's not "multiple" in a fight scheduled for 15 rounds.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Sr only seems sure about SRR beating Floyd.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> He was also certainly more technically skilled than anybody Floyd's beat at the times fought, particularly in the footwork department.


Kalule is simply better than any fighter Floyd ever beat at the times fought.

One of (if not the) Leonard's most impressive offensive displays against an elite fighter.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Sr only seems sure about SRR beating Floyd.


Sr claims Ray only beat him because he had a busted hand!:lol:


----------



## dftaylor (Jun 4, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah i don't know about that. Floyd is just overall better and SRL doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd and imo is outgunned.


What utter shit. Ray would knock fuck out of Floyd. Overall better...


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Ray got slapped silly by a man who couldn't even make a 50 year old Duran blink. (The argument that Ray was past prime doesn't hold considering Duran was way more past it)
:lol:

SRL would decision Floyd but doubt he'd stop him.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I'm not denying that mate,but he was three years out of the ring himself(unless you count Quincy Taylor and the others who were allowed to wear headgear and smaller gloves whilst Ray was not) and Duran had also advised him to fight Hagler.The "Hagler was old" argument means nothing because Ray had peaked 5 years previously and was declining before Hagler.
> Add to that Leonard has never denied any of his psychological tricks,yet people talk as if he was pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.


People talk as if Hagler was anything more than the cherry on top of a legendary career and is the backbone of Leonard's resume that his greatness somehow hinges on. He isn't. Leonard didn't even need him.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hagler was a *semi*-slick *bore* who couldn't stop a lightweight and who didn't even get half the attention Hearns and Leonard got.(Because he was boring)
Summary of his career is that a welter coming of a big lay off would have been his best win, would have because he didn't win.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Really, the burden of proof is not on Leonard to prove he'd beat Floyd. It's the other way around.


:yep























































_"It was Benitez whom Leonard defeated to become the WBC welterweight champion. That was on Nov. 30, 1979, barely two years ago. In 22 months Leonard fought Benitez, Roberto Duran twice, Ayub Kalule, Hearns, champions all, a combined 177-1-1 record going in against him. Hearns and Kalule had never been knocked down. Leonard knocked them down. Hearns, the WBA welterweight champion, and Kalule, the WBA junior middleweight champ, were unbeaten. Leonard knocked out Kalule in the ninth round in Houston on June 25, 1981 and stopped Hearns in the 14th round in Las Vegas on Sept. 16, 1981. Did any boxer ever have five fights against such diverse and accomplished opponents in such a short period? Damn few."_


----------



## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

This thread went exactly how I thought it would.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Blanco said:


> This thread went exactly how I thought it would.


Benitez UD12/15 Trinidad


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Kalule is simply better than any fighter Floyd ever beat at the times fought.
> 
> One of (if not the) Leonard's most impressive offensive displays against an elite fighter.


One hell of a challenge and fight to take with a mega-millions superfight against an even more dangerous and formidable opponent in the works and just around the corner. Leonard pre-detached retina was the fucking Truth.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Guys getting baited in here like it's no thang :rofl


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Benitez _is _overrated though. The winning the title so young was impressive but other than that his best win is the fat Duran


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> One hell of a challenge


It's not like Leonard cherry-picked some easy-to-look-good weak belt-holder.

It was Kalule himself - need I say more?



Hands of Iron said:


> Leonard pre-detached retina was the fucking Truth.


Leonard was almost Da Man back then.

If only he wasn't so terrified of Cuevas...

But who can blame him for avoiding Pipino?

Even Hearns only fought Cuevas after Pipino got old and declined severely.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Guys getting baited in here like it's no thang :rofl


It's not really a successful bait when it's being dealt with so effortlessly. There's few things I like discussing more. Nobody is going to successfully detract from Robearto(e)'s win.



Lester1583 said:


> It's not like Leonard cherry-picked some easy-to-look weak belt-holder.
> 
> It was Kalule himself - need I say more?
> 
> ...


Ohh :lol: http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...s-154-division&p=909666&viewfull=1#post909666


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Benitez _is _overrated though. The winning the title so young was impressive but other than that his best win is the fat Duran


Nah, I'm no fan of Benitez and he was erratic and lost to Curry's aborted brother.

But on his best night he was great.

That Palomino victory is almost as good as any Oscar welter win.
(Almost - David Kamau's destruction was simply mind-boggling).

And he schooled Cervantes who Duran ducked shamelessly after all.:yep


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Guys getting baited in here like it's no thang :rofl


It would be baiting were it not for the fact that the TS genuinely believes what he's saying along with the misleading thread title.
Ain't no thang though,you're right about that Turbo.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Benitez _is _overrated though. The winning the title so young was impressive but other than that his best win is the fat Duran


Overrated compared to who though?  he didn't just win the title, he dethroned one of the best 140lbers of all-time in doing it, took Palomino's legit strap at 147 and yeah, schooled Robearto(e) out of his shoes. Duran actually trained harder and was in better shape for that fight than probably any other in his entire post-Leonard career. Benitez's jab, feints, countering ability, defense, anticipation and reflexes were silly good. It's about 60% his ability shown in the ring. Plus being prime, undefeated, top P4P guy, etc.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Guys getting baited in here like it's no thang :rofl





PityTheFool said:


> It would be baiting were it not for the fact that the TS genuinely believes what he's saying along with the misleading thread title.
> Ain't no thang though,you're right about that Turbo.


Let Tiliang start on ROY JONES again


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Nah, I'm no fan of Benitez and he was erratic and lost to Curry's aborted brother.
> 
> But on his best night he was great.
> 
> ...


I love that Kamau fight :happy

Benitez was a damned good welterweight. Cervantes was pretty well past it though. :lol: Did Robearto(e) actually duck AC?

Call me nuts, but I think Floyd could beat Benitez.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Let Tiliang start on ROY JONES again


:rofl

Roy would've made Floyd look worse than Leonard would.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

fucking barbershop talk......ITS ALL BULLSHIT!


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Let Tiliang start on ROY JONES again


Roy "NOT the greatest I've ever seen" Jones?
That guy?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Guys getting baited in here like it's no thang :rofl





turbotime said:


> I love that Kamau fight :happy
> 
> Benitez was a damned good welterweight. Cervantes was pretty well past it though. :lol: Did Robearto(e) actually duck AC?
> 
> Call me nuts, but I think Floyd could beat Benitez.


Don't let the high number of bouts fool you bro, he really wasn't. He was on the best stretch of his career and in top condition. He actually REGAINED the title and made another seven defenses. He was well past it when Pryor beat him, not Benitez.

Eleta wanted nothing to do with AC.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Don't let the high number of bouts fool you bro, he really wasn't. He was on the best stretch of his career and in top condition. He actually REGAINED the title and made another seven defenses. He was well past it when Pryor beat him, not Benitez.
> 
> Eleta wanted nothing to do with AC.


He* regained * ( :conf) some vacant paper title from some cabby with a funny name though, then beat a bunch of guys who did absolutely zilch of note. It's not surprising Pryor blitzed him the way he did at all after all the cream puffs he was beating.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Hagler was a *semi*-slick *bore* who couldn't stop a lightweight and who didn't even get half the attention Hearns and Leonard got.(Because he was boring)
> Summary of his career is that a welter coming of a big lay off would have been his best win, would have because he didn't win.


He also refused to consider going down to 154 to fight Leonard when Ray was allegedly waiting for him to get old because Marvin knew those belts were the only juice he could bring to the table.He resented having to fight shitty mandatories for half a million bucks but had to because he needed those belts.
Marvin was unable to see that to become a true crossover star,you had to be personable,and I actually sympathise with him there.
But that's just how it is.Surly fighters can have all the talent in the world but you need more.
Roy Jones was another who suffered because of his demeanour and he couldn't fill MSG theatre hall.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> He* regained * ( :conf) some vacant paper title from some cabby with a funny name though, then beat a bunch of guys who did absolutely zilch of note. It's not surprising Pryor blitzed him the way he did at all after all the cream puffs he was beating.


:conf

If he was "well past it" he would've been losing to those same guys. He lost one other fight the entire 70s decade, which was avenged. The whole "Benitez was overrated" was some silly shit to begin with. Certainly not compared to anybody on Floyd's ledger.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :conf
> 
> If he was "well past it" he would've been losing to those same guys. He lost one other fight the entire 70s decade, which was avenged. The whole "Benitez was overrated" was some silly shit to begin with. Certainly not compared to anybody on Floyd's ledger.


He probably still could've beat those cans after Pryor spanked him. And don't even get me started on him.

and look what we're comparing here-

Floyd who is a small lightweight even, fighting probably the #2 WW to ever live and all people have is "well Leonard beat Benitez so he obviously beats up Floyd"

It's silly.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> He also refused to consider going down to 154 to fight Leonard when Ray was allegedly waiting for him to get old because Marvin knew those belts were the only juice he could bring to the table.He resented having to fight shitty mandatories for half a million bucks but had to because he needed those belts.
> Marvin was unable to see that to become a true crossover star,you had to be personable,and I actually sympathise with him there.
> But that's just how it is.Surly fighters can have all the talent in the world but you need more.
> Roy Jones was another who suffered because of his demeanour and he couldn't fill MSG theatre hall.


Strange too because everyone who comes across Jones and lives to tell about it remarks on how cool and accessible of a guy he is.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Guys getting baited in here like it's no thang :rofl





turbotime said:


> He probably still could've beat those cans after Pryor spanked him. And don't even get me started on him.
> 
> and look what we're comparing here-
> 
> ...


I'm not making any comparisons like that. Floyd didn't beat anybody, at any weight, that was better than Benitez. Particularly that version.

It's just insane to me that people believe they can legitimately criticize and nitpick Leonard's record.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Strange too because everyone who comes across Jones and lives to tell about it remarks on how cool and accessible of a guy he is.


He was a gent on the TV special he appeared on over here recently,but he had the same problem as Marvin.
He felt he was under appreciated and let it show.I remember Budd Schulberg doing a piece on it before the Paz fight.
It'd be a great shame if Roy being so nice was a result of all these unecessary beatings he's taken in recent years.
My brother in law was a cunt until he got a brain injury and now has onset Parkinson's and he's become an absolute gem nowadays.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Leonard picked apart and stopped an equally brilliant defensive fighter in Benitez. He's not losing sleep over his chances against Floyd in the public imagination today.


Speed played a major factor in that one. Floyd is faster than Benitez.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Eleta wanted nothing to do with AC.


Duran-Benitez were supposed to meet as early as 1977 or 1978 - Duran pulled out with the flu.

Duran-Ortiz were supposed to meet in 1972 - Duran pulled out with the stomach virus.

Buchanan waited for years for a rematch - never happened.

And some people have the nerve to accuse modern fighters of cherry-picking :verysad


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Benitez was just as good a defensive fighter as floyd with heavier hands.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> People who are taken lightly are mostly in this room already and i'm just rounding up to get more so you want to go that direction? Especially how many pro boxers/trainers who thinks Floyd is the best? I guess some people on this forum are way to full of themselves.:verysad


If there's many pro boxers and trainers who think Floyds the best, then there's many more who think he isn't.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate but this isn't exactly true. First, everyone he stopped of quality were chinny anyway, Benitez, Hearns, Kalule were all stopped multiple times either before or afterwards. PTF used Finch as an example, not exactly show casing anything given how many times he's been stopped even before Leonard. He couldn't even hurt the naturally smaller Duran who was decked a few times by De Jesus at a lower weight. Hagler was never troubled in the slightest by Leonard and he most certainly walked through his shots when he wanted to.
> 
> Floyd has shown to have at least a good beard if not an exceptional one. In any case I don't see a KO going either way. Just like I don't see a prime Floyd losing multiple rounds to the likes of the open handed, slapping Kalule. I mean people say how well Cotto did against Floyd when in reality won no more than 4 rounds out of 12. It's a tough fight either way, I can't pick a winner because I can't imagine how they'd do against each other.


How does Floyd do against "chinny" Hearns, Macap? :lol:



> Benitez was just as good a defensive fighter as floyd with heavier hands.


Benitez's defensive wizardry counted for little against the likes of Thomas Hearns and Ray Leonard. He was great at maneuvering out of the way of punches, but he found it terribly difficult to get off with his own offense. I don't think Floyd would have the same trouble against Ray because his hand speed is at least comparable. Yeah, I guess I'm saying Ray would find it more difficult to dominate Floyd than he did Benitez.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Mayweather's been in the ring with boxers no where near the skill and athleticism of a prime Leonard. Floyd doesn't like pressure and he doesn't throw enough to beat Leonard. Floyd doesn't have the power or foot work to keep Leonard off him. He would be up against the ropes a lot in this fight, eating shots as well as making Leonard miss with dat shoulder roll.
Floyd just doesn't have the offensive skill or balls to mix it with Leonard and his defence would only last so long before he starts getting busted up by the stronger, quicker, more skilled, harder hitting, more mobile SRL.
Floyd would have some success landing Flush pot shots centre of the ring and countering against the ropes but that's not enough to beat Leonard. Leonard can beat him inside or outside, is more dynamic and ticks more boxes. Leonard late stoppage imo.​​


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> He also refused to consider going down to 154 to fight Leonard when Ray was allegedly waiting for him to get old because Marvin knew those belts were the only juice he could bring to the table.He resented having to fight shitty mandatories for half a million bucks but had to because he needed those belts.
> Marvin was unable to see that to become a true crossover star,you had to be personable,and I actually sympathise with him there.
> But that's just how it is.Surly fighters can have all the talent in the world but you need more.
> Roy Jones was another who suffered because of his demeanour and he couldn't fill MSG theatre hall.


Well..., ehrmmm I actually do pity the fool. :lol:


----------



## jamestoney89 (Oct 11, 2013)

I like Mayweather he's one of the best technicians I've ever seen but if a Sugar Ray Leonard emerged in todays welterweight division I don't think it's being unreasonable to say that it's fairly likely Mayweather would find a way to avoid him. 

Sugar Ray Leonard is more natural at the weight than Mayweather, who I think was in his absolute prime at lighter divisions. For this reason, I'd tip him to win.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Leonard picked apart and stopped an* equally brilliant defensive fighter in Benitez.* He's not losing sleep over his chances against Floyd in the public imagination today.


Yeah I don't think so but then again you also think Duran is more skilled.

//www.youtube.com/embed/qq6ZLecsWyU
Damn near every part of the highlight showed that he gets clocked while he ducks and slips with his hands down and solely relying on his upper body movement. He knows to duck and slip when being under attacked like 90% of the boxers. Good reflexes but Bogo u need to have your eyes checked if you think he is equally good at defense than Floyd.

//www.youtube.com/embed/vj_Zj3anRd8


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Ray (when asked about the match up) 'That's not fair, I already knocked his daddy out'


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

How would Floyd do against Anthony Joshua Tiliang?

You gonna argue that too?

Give me your best argument that Floyd Mayweather Jr right now can beat 3-0 6'6 235+ Pound Super Heavyweight Anthony Joshua.

Go for it.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Let's actually have a debate on weather or not Joshua can KO 1 Floyd or will Floyd last the first 3 minutes.

Can he 'duck and slip' and 'slick' his way out of round 1?
Tliang?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

KERRIGAN said:


> SRL would destroy Floyd.
> 
> Floyd doesn't have the offense to trouble Leonard.
> 
> ...


Floyd have the offense to trouble everyone bc he feints so damn well. When he throws he lands and half of the time you can't see his punches coming. People think that he doesn't have an offense yet he can land with every punch in the book he attacks and while defense he can counter you with every punch in the book. He fights in complete control. Does SRL offer that type of offense as well as defense. You can see Leonard's offense coming and his flurry would get interrupted by Floyd combo breaker killer instinct style.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

KERRIGAN said:


> He's saying that Leonard wouldn't have got the decision against Hagler and that the second fight with Hearns would have been a points victory to Hearns, rather than a Draw.


You know whats up.

Also Hearns and SRL I. Hearns basically whipped SRL's ass the whole time until he got caught and the ref ended things quickly. So really Hearns is better than SRL imo and i like SRL more bc Hearns abuse his size to fight small guys.

SRL might have been better than Duran "had he used the right strategy" so that one is up in the air
SRL vs Hagler was a coin toss.

SRL got a killer resume bc he have the W's next to his names over his Elite rivals.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> How would Floyd do against Anthony Joshua Tiliang?
> 
> You gonna argue that too?
> 
> ...


Why you trying to make it sound like i think Floyd beats everyone while some people on here talk about Duran, SRL, Hearns, and Hagler as some kind special breed of boxers that is far superior than Floyd?

Meanwhile the man himself (SRL) was more than willing to admit that Floyd belongs in their class.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You know whats up.
> 
> Also Hearns and SRL I. Hearns basically whipped SRL's ass the whole time until he got caught and the ref ended things quickly. So really Hearns is better than SRL imo and i like SRL more bc Hearns abuse his size to fight small guys.
> 
> ...


So if you come from behind to win,it means you're an inferior boxer?
Also the claim that Tommy whipped Ray's ass tells me you haven't seen the fight or haven't watched it in a long time.Tommy was only in total control for the first five rounds with his jab,Ray dominated the next third and Tommy came back after 10.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> So if you come from behind to win,it means you're an inferior boxer?
> Also the claim that Tommy whipped Ray's ass tells me you haven't seen the fight or haven't watched it in a long time.Tommy was only in total control for the first five rounds with his jab,Ray dominated the next third and Tommy came back after 10.


I'm saying the ref pulled the plug too quickly like England Froch style. Hearns was in control vast majority of the time, marked up SRL pretty damn good and force SRL to fight in desperation. SRL got a great chin and took a lot of heavy shots from Hearns and still fought on. The moment that SRL landed some of his punches that Hearn kept hitting him with, Hearns was stumbling around which still baffles how chinny he was. Their second match Hearns won pretty clearly and got a draw was some bs. So of the two times they fought i would say that Hearns got the better of SRL but just wasn't able to produce the W.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You know whats up.
> 
> Also Hearns and SRL I. Hearns basically whipped SRL's ass the whole time until he got caught and the ref ended things quickly. So really Hearns is better than SRL imo and i like SRL more bc Hearns abuse his size to fight small guys.
> 
> ...


Hearns used his reach and height yes, but he sure as hell wasn't a size abuser
He was 147 in a time where fighters weren't the weightdrain machines we have today, what Hearns had in reach and height (bone-mass) other fighters had more muscle mass.
Tommy was fighting guys his own size, he just had a lanky build.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Hearns used his reach and height yes, but he sure as hell wasn't a size abuser
> He was 147 in a time where fighters weren't the weightdrain machines we have today, what Hearns had in reach and height (bone-mass) other fighters had more muscle mass.
> Tommy was fighting guys his own size, he just had a lanky build.


I find it hard to believe that he didn't put on 10-20lbs on fight night.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I find it hard to believe that he didn't put on 10-20lbs on fight night.


He weighed in at 145 to prove that he wasn't draining himself. (in the first fight)


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> He weighed in at 145 to prove that he wasn't draining himself. (in the first fight)


You talking about against SRL or other opponents?


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I'm saying the ref pulled the plug too quickly like England Froch style. Hearns was in control vast majority of the time, marked up SRL pretty damn good and force SRL to fight in desperation. SRL got a great chin and took a lot of heavy shots from Hearns and still fought on. The moment that SRL landed some of his punches that Hearn kept hitting him with, Hearns was stumbling around which still baffles how chinny he was. Their second match Hearns won pretty clearly and got a draw was some bs. So of the two times they fought i would say that Hearns got the better of SRL but just wasn't able to produce the W.


No argument from me on the rematch,but in regards to the first fight,under the old scoring rules Ray should have been given a 10-8 round somewhere around the 7th or 8th and there was also a KD late on that he was denied when Tommy went through the ropes.He went down in the same round as the stoppage as well so there was no "British reffing" at all.I'm sure Manny said he was going to pull Hearns out anyway but Hearns was at best,three or four rounds up by the 12th,so that hardly constitutes a domination.
Barrera is my 2nd favourite fighter ever and I didn't like Hamed but that's another one of these myth fights were people talk like it was a shut out.Leonard hurt Hearns several times before the old championship rounds yet some people talk as if it was 13-0 going into the decisive round.
And let's not forget that I'm a big Floyd fan,but it's the versatility of Leonard and an ability to get the job done whatever that gives him the edge over Floyd.
As I said before,Floyd is usually way more effective landing single stinging shots at the right moment,but he's never faced a fighter as complete as SRL who had head and lateral movement with the ability to fight comfortably going forwards or on the back foot so you won't see Floyd getting the opportunities to connect.
No one's arguing that Floyd doesn't have the ability to stand alongside these guys,but the thread and OP suggests that Ray is admitting he's inferior to FMJ when he's said nothing of the sort.I've heard him say he would knock Floyd out and don't forget,around 2005 Floyd said Ray wouldn't be in the top ten if he was fighting then.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> No argument from me on the rematch,but in regards to the first fight,under the old scoring rules Ray should have been given a 10-8 round somewhere around the 7th or 8th and there was also a KD late on that he was denied when Tommy went through the ropes.He went down in the same round as the stoppage as well so there was no "British reffing" at all.I'm sure Manny said he was going to pull Hearns out anyway but Hearns was at best,three or four rounds up by the 12th,so that hardly constitutes a domination.
> Barrera is my 2nd favourite fighter ever and I didn't like Hamed but that's another one of these myth fights were people talk like it was a shut out.Leonard hurt Hearns several times before the old championship rounds yet some people talk as if it was 13-0 going into the decisive round.
> And let's not forget that I'm a big Floyd fan,but it's the versatility of Leonard and an ability to get the job done whatever that gives him the edge over Floyd.
> As I said before,Floyd is usually way more effective landing single stinging shots at the right moment,but he's never faced a fighter as complete as SRL who had head and lateral movement with the ability to fight comfortably going forwards or on the back foot so you won't see Floyd getting the opportunities to connect.
> No one's arguing that Floyd doesn't have the ability to stand alongside these guys,but the thread and OP suggests that Ray is admitting he's inferior to FMJ when he's said nothing of the sort.I've heard him say he would knock Floyd out and don't forget,around 2005 Floyd said Ray wouldn't be in the top ten if he was fighting then.


I had no problems if the ref stopped the fight in the 13th since Hearns had a brief period of time when he was getting clocked and not fighting back and stumbling back to his corner. The 14th round was stopped after a lesser beating and hearns walked back into his corner without any problem. More than likely Hearns probably would've got stopped anyways bc he looked too tired to fend SRL off but he did have just one more round to go.

It is hard to throw combos against better opponents just look at the early rounds of Hearns and SRL they single shot each other 95% of the time. Plus i think Floyd fights like that due to his opponents all try to trade with him in hopes of landing. Also there is no point to throw combos to sneak in a solid shot when you can hit your opponents with a solid shot in one try.

I have said for several years already that Floyd belongs in their class for quite some time now i just find it amazing that so many people still find it absurd that he stands absolutely no chance against any of them.

I think prime for prime at lower weights Floyd can beat SRL but not at WW and above.
I think Prime for prime Floyd beats Duran
I think WW and JMW Floyd loses to Hearns bc his frame is not big enough to effectively carry the weight and he is too small, size and range.
And Hagler is basically no point to talk about.
Of course Floyd loses to WW+ SRR


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah I don't think so but then again you also think Duran is more skilled.
> 
> //www.youtube.com/embed/qq6ZLecsWyU
> Damn near every part of the highlight showed that he gets clocked while he ducks and slips with his hands down and solely relying on his upper body movement. He knows to duck and slip when being under attacked like 90% of the boxers. Good reflexes but Bogo u need to have your eyes checked if you think he is equally good at defense than Floyd.
> ...


A highlight video isn't what I'm going off of. That video is going to show him clown and use his upper body movement in the most dramatic ways. Benitez's record-breaking performances against Cervantes (a better win than any Floyd has on his record), his competitive effort against Leonard, his win over a still competent Duran, and the fact he went 12 against Hearns, that all speaks to his defensive brilliance. His parrying, control of distance, subtle head movement, use of his shoulder positioning, rolling with punches, was just brilliant. I know for a fact you haven't seen all those fights. Don't argue until you have. Some highlight video is not going to communicate the subtle brilliance.



Pedderrs said:


> Speed played a major factor in that one. Floyd is faster than Benitez.


Benitez never looked highly outgunned with respect to speed to my eyes. It definitely helped Leonard beat him to the punch, particularly with his jab, but it never overwhelmed Benitez. Floyd is faster, but Leonard is faster than anyone Floyd has fought as well.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Benitez never looked highly outgunned with respect to speed to my eyes. It definitely helped Leonard beat him to the punch, particularly with his jab, but it never overwhelmed Benitez. Floyd is faster, but Leonard is faster than anyone Floyd has fought as well.


Ray would throttle Floyd. I'm just saying that I think Floyd's superior hand speed and counter-punching ability would see him fight a more competitive fight with Ray than Benitez could manage. Benitez was as good as anyone at maneuvering out of the way of the opponent's punches, but he lacked the speed to counter the likes of Hearns or Ray with any sort of regularity. Floyd would touch Ray a lot more, in my opinion.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Ray would throttle Floyd. I'm just saying that I think Floyd's superior hand speed and counter-punching ability would see him fight a more competitive fight with Ray than Benitez could manage. Benitez was as good as anyone at maneuvering out of the way of the opponent's punches, but he lacked the speed to counter the likes of Hearns or Ray with any sort of regularity. Floyd would touch Ray a lot more, in my opinion.


Oh I definitely agree with that. He'd be able to beat Ray to the punch more frequently than Benitez with quicker and better disguised leads and the faster counters. It would be a good fight.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> A highlight video isn't what I'm going off of. That video is going to show him clown and use his upper body movement in the most dramatic ways. Benitez's record-breaking performances against Cervantes (a better win than any Floyd has on his record), his competitive effort against Leonard, his win over a still competent Duran, and the fact he went 12 against Hearns, that all speaks to his defensive brilliance. His parrying, control of distance, subtle head movement, use of his shoulder positioning, rolling with punches, was just brilliant. I know for a fact you haven't seen all those fights. Don't argue until you have. Some highlight video is not going to communicate the subtle brilliance.
> 
> Benitez never looked highly outgunned with respect to speed to my eyes. It definitely helped Leonard beat him to the punch, particularly with his jab, but it never overwhelmed Benitez. Floyd is faster, but Leonard is faster than anyone Floyd has fought as well.


cervantes. Bogo, you must get a hard on when you see a dude with a big record don't you. To say that Cervantes is better than anyone Floyd has fought is utter horseshit. The guy's resume is not better than Oscar, JMM, Cotto, Guerruro, Castillo.


1967-06-03Reynaldo Lopez*3*-*8*-*1*


San Andres, ColombiaWPTS1010 1967-05-30Jose Godoy
*1*-*5*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS10101967-05-20Heliodoro Pitalua*7*-*8*-*0*

San Andres, ColombiaWPTS10101967-04-02Heliodoro Pitalua
*6*-*8*-*0*

Estadio 11 de Noviembre, Cartagena, ColombiaLPTS881967-03-01Antonio Yi
*1*-*3*-*2*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS10101967-02-08Jose Godoy
*1*-*4*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS10101967-02-03Victor Cano
*11*-*6*-*0*

Bogota, ColombiaLPTS881966-11-16Antonio Yi
*1*-*2*-*2*

Barranquilla, ColombiaWKO61966-11-06Cipriano Zuluaga
*4*-*6*-*0*

Estadio 18 de Junio, Monteria, ColombiaLPTS1010Colombian featherweight title 1966-10-01Jose Godoy*1*-*3*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS10101966-09-23Cipriano Zuluaga*3*-*6*-*0*

Estadio 18 de Junio, Monteria, ColombiaLPTS1010Colombian featherweight title 1966-08-20Heliodoro Pitalua*6*-*6*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWKO21966-07-29Reynaldo Lopez*3*-*8*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaDPTS881966-06-24Jose Zuniga

Estadio 11 de Noviembre, Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS661966-06-21Rafael Donado*0*-*1*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS10101966-05-24Jose Godoy*1*-*2*-*0*

Calamar, ColombiaWPTS661966-05-10Jesus Cardenas
*0*-*2*-*0*

Turbaco, ColombiaWKO71966-04-29Jose Godoy*1*-*1*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS661966-03-28Heliodoro Pitalua*6*-*3*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS10101966-03-19Antonio Yi*1*-*1*-*2*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS661966-02-27Rodolfo Marquez*0*-*4*-*0*

Barranquilla, ColombiaWKO21966-02-02Rodolfo Marquez*0*-*3*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS441966-01-19Rafael Donado

Cartagena, ColombiaWKO21966-01-07Oscar Gonzalez*1*-*2*-*0*

Cartagena, ColombiaWPTS441965-10-02Antonio Yi*1*-*0*-*2*

Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661965-09-04Eduardo Leon*0*-*1*-*1*

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661965-08-07Carlos Delgado

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWKO561965-07-10Raul Vanegas*0*-*1*-*0*

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWKO461965-06-12Eduardo Leon*0*-*1*-*0*

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaDPTS661965-05-08Luis Santolban

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661965-04-03Luis Valdez*0*-*1*-*0*

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661965-03-06Eduardo Leon

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661965-02-06Raul Vanegas

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWKO261965-01-09Jorge Pena*0*-*2*-*0*

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661964-12-12Luis Valdez

Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661964-11-14Juan Santolban*0*-*1*-*0*

Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661964-10-17Luis Venegas

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaLPTS881964-09-19Jorge Pena*0*-*1*-*0*

Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661964-08-15Gito Valdez*0*-*2*-*0*

Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661964-07-18Jorge Pena

Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661964-06-20Felix Salgado

Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS441964-05-05Oscar Gonzalez*1*-*0*-*0*

Medellin, ColombiaWPTS881964-04-21Rodolfo Marquez*0*-*2*-*0*

Maria La Baja, ColombiaWKO31964-03-20Rodolfo Marquez*0*-*1*-*0*

Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS66Exact date unknown 1964-02-28Rodolfo Marquez

Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS441964-01-31Juan Martinez

Cerete, ColombiaWPTS661963-12-20Gito Valdez*0*-*1*-*0*

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661963-11-22Jose Montanez

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661963-10-25Jesus Vera

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661963-09-20Diego Tovar

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661963-08-23Juan Santolban

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661963-07-26Gito Valdez

Estadio Metropolitano, Barranquilla, ColombiaWPTS661963-05-24Alfredo Cruz*1*-*1*-*0*

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS661963-04-26Tito Banderas

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWTKO461963-03-29Cesar Mantilla

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS661962-11-16Alfredo Cruz*1*-*0*-*0*

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS661962-10-19Alfredo Cruz

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaLPTS661962-09-21Luis Ordonez

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS661962-08-10Santiago Perez*0*-*2*-*0*

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS441962-07-20Juan Moreno*0*-*1*-*0*

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS441962-06-15Ricardo Torres

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS441962-05-18Kid Bogota

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaLPTS441962-04-20Santiago Perez*0*-*1*-*0*

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWKO241962-03-23Ricardo Rojas

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWKO241961-12-08Santiago Perez

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS441961-10-20Alberto Cepeda

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWTKO241961-09-22Juan Moreno

Coliseo Municipal, Valledupar, ColombiaWPTS44 
 This is just page one of two and he probably fought all the bums in Colombia and Venezuela combine.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Defeating a long reigning champion like Cervantes at the age of 17 is definitely more impressive than anything Floyd has managed. I think that's what Bogo was saying, not that Cervantes was a better fighter than the likes of DLH or JMM.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogo if you add those type of guys to Floyd's resume you would probably busted a nut.

In reality Floyd would get criticized to no end if he had fought that many bums before his first title.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Defeating a long reigning champion like Cervantes at the age of 17 is definitely more impressive than anything Floyd has managed. I think that's what Bogo was saying, not that Cervantes was a better fighter than the likes of DLH or JMM.


And Floyd winning his first title and Hernandez 38-1 is not?
I believe being undefeated in 45 fights and fought 23 championship bouts tops it by a long shot.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

From after Floyd won his first title. Yet Bogo is question his credential while hyping up Cervantes just really exposes yourself as bias.


 2013-09-14Saul Alvarez*42*-*0*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWMD1212  referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 116-112 | judge: C.J. Ross 114-114 | judge: Craig Metcalfe 117-111 
WBC light middleweight title (supervisor: Mauricio Sulaiman)
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Gilberto Jesus Mendoza)
 2013-05-04Robert Guerrero*31*-*1*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Robert Byrd | judge: Jerry Roth 117-111 | judge: Duane Ford 117-111 | judge: Julie Lederman 117-111 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman)
 2012-05-05Miguel Cotto*37*-*2*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-111 | judge: Dave Moretti 117-111 
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Aurelio Fiengo)
vacant WBC Diamond light middleweight title
 2011-09-17Victor Ortiz*29*-*2*-*2*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWKO412 time: 2:59 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Jerry Roth | judge: Adalaide Byrd | judge: Glenn Trowbridge 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman)
Ortiz penalized 1 point in rd 4 for head-butt. Ortiz down rd 4.
 2010-05-01Shane Mosley*46*-*5*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 119-109 | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Adalaide Byrd 119-109 
 2009-09-19Juan Manuel Marquez*50*-*4*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Burt A. Clements 120-107 | judge: Dave Moretti 119-108 | judge: Bill Lerch 118-109 
Marquez down once in 2nd round
 2007-12-08Ricky Hatton*43*-*0*-*0*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO1012 time: 1:35 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Paul Smith 88-82 | judge: Dave Moretti 89-81 | judge: Burt A. Clements 89-81 
WBC welterweight title
 2007-05-05Oscar De La Hoya*38*-*4*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWSD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Jerry Roth 115-113 | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 113-115 
WBC light middleweight title
 2006-11-04Carlos Manuel Baldomir*43*-*9*-*6*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 120-108 | judge: John Keane 120-108 | judge: Paul Smith 118-110 
WBC welterweight title
International Boxing Organization welterweight title
International Boxing Association welterweight title
 2006-04-08Zab Judah*34*-*3*-*0*

Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Richard Steele | judge: Glen Hamada 119-109 | judge: Dave Moretti 116-112 | judge: Jerry Roth 117-111 
IBF welterweight title
vacant International Boxing Organization welterweight title
 2005-11-19Sharmba Mitchell*56*-*4*-*0*

Rose Garden, Portland, Oregon, USAWTKO612 time: 2:06 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Greg Baker | judge: Duane Ford | judge: Jim Howard 
Mitchell down once in Rounds 3 and 6.
 2005-06-25Arturo Gatti*39*-*6*-*0*

Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWRTD612 time: 3:00 | referee: Earl Morton | judge: Luis Rivera 60-52 | judge: John Stewart 60-53 | judge: Dave Moretti 60-52 
WBC light welterweight title
 2005-01-22Henry Bruseles*21*-*2*-*1*

American Airlines Arena, Miami, Florida, USAWTKO812 time: 2:55 | referee: Jorge Alonso | judge: Harold Laurens | judge: Gerald Ritter | judge: Peter Trematerra 
WBC Light Welterweight Title Eliminator
Judges scores: 70-62, 70-63, 69-64 after 7; Bruseles down twice in rd 8.
 2004-05-22DeMarcus Corley*28*-*2*-*1*

Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1212 referee: Benjy Esteves Jr. | judge: Melvina Lathan 119-107 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 118-108 | judge: William Boodhoo 119-108 
WBC Light Welterweight Title Eliminator
Corley down in 8th and 10th.
 2003-11-01Phillip Ndou*31*-*1*-*0*

Van Andel Arena, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USAWTKO712 time: 1:08 | referee: Frank Garza | judge: Guillermo Ayon 59-54 | judge: Harold Laurens 59-54 | judge: Jack Woodburn 60-52 
WBC lightweight title
 2003-04-19Victoriano Sosa*35*-*2*-*2*

Selland Arena, Fresno, California, USAWUD1212 referee: Raul Caiz Sr | judge: Chuck Hassett 118-110 | judge: Lou Filippo 119-109 | judge: Jack Woodburn 118-110 
WBC lightweight title
 2002-12-07Jose Luis Castillo*46*-*5*-*1*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Ken Morita 115-113 | judge: Larry O'Connell 116-113 | judge: Daniel Van de Wiele 115-113 
WBC lightweight title
 2002-04-20Jose Luis Castillo*45*-*4*-*1*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Vic Drakulich | judge: Anek Hongtongkam 116-111 | judge: John Keane 115-111 | judge: Jerry Roth 115-111 
WBC lightweight title
 2001-11-10Jesus Chavez*35*-*1*-*0*

Bill Graham Civic Auditorium, San Francisco, California, USAWRTD912 time: 3:00 | referee: Jon Schorle | judge: Lou Filippo 89-82 | judge: Marty Sammon 88-83 | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 87-84 
WBC super featherweight title
Chavez corner stops the bout after the 9th round
 2001-05-26Carlos Hernandez*33*-*2*-*1*

Van Andel Arena, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USAWUD1212 referee: Dale Grable | judge: Peter Trematerra 119-109 | judge: Bob Watson 117-109 | judge: Marty Sammon 116-111 
WBC super featherweight title
Mayweather suffered first knockdown of his career in the 6th rd; Hernandez penalized 1 point in Rd 12 for elbowing.
 2001-01-20Diego Corrales*33*-*0*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO1012 time: 2:19 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Jerry Roth 90-79 | judge: John Keane 90-78 | judge: Anek Hongtongkam 89-79 
WBC super featherweight title
Corrales corner throws in the towel after Diego was knocked down for the fifth time
 2000-10-21Emanuel Augustus*22*-*16*-*4*

Cobo Hall, Detroit, Michigan, USAWTKO910 time: 1:06 | referee: Dale Grable | judge: Chip Acey | judge: Herman McKalpain | judge: Bob Watson 
Burton cornerman Nelson Lopez climbed through the ropes and implored Grable to stop the fight.
 2000-03-18Gregorio Vargas*40*-*6*-*1*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Richard Steele | judge: Chuck Giampa 118-109 | judge: Daniel Van de Wiele 119-108 | judge: John Keane 119-108 
WBC super featherweight title
 1999-09-11Carlos Gerena*34*-*2*-*0*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWRTD712 time: 3:00 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Chuck Giampa 70-61 | judge: Ken Morita 70-61 | judge: Daniel Talon 70-61 
WBC super featherweight title
 1999-05-22Justin Juuko*33*-*2*-*1*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWKO912 time: 1:20 | referee: Mitch Halpern | judge: Anek Hongtongkam 79-73 | judge: Daniel Van de Wiele 79-73 | judge: John Keane 79-73 
WBC super featherweight title
 1999-02-17Carlos Alberto Ramon Rios*44*-*2*-*1*

Van Andel Arena, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USAWUD1212 referee: Dale Grable | judge: Jose Juan Guerra 120-110 | judge: Gueremo Perez 119-108 | judge: Bob Watson 120-109 
WBC super featherweight title
 1998-12-19Angel Manfredy*25*-*2*-*1*

Miccosukee Indian Gaming Resort, Miami, Florida, USAWTKO212 time: 2:47 | referee: Frank Santore Jr | judge: Jay Kassees | judge: Ken Morita | judge: Dalby Shirley 
WBC super featherweight title
 1998-10-03Genaro Hernandez*38*-*1*-*1*

Las Vegas Hilton, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWRTD812 time: 3:00 | referee: Jay Nady | judge: Bob Logist 80-72 | judge: Chuck Giampa 79-73 | judge: Terry Smith 79-73  


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

You haven't watched Cervantes fight, have you?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> cervantes. Bogo, you must get a hard on when you see a dude with a big record don't you. To say that Cervantes is better than anyone Floyd has fought is utter horseshit. The guy's resume is not better than Oscar, JMM, Cotto, Guerruro, Castillo.
> 
> This is just page one of two and he probably fought all the bums in Colombia and Venezuela combine.


First of all, you've just admitted that you don't know who Antonio "Kid Pambele" Cervantes is by pulling some typical boxrec warrior shit. He's the best fighter to ever come out of Colombia, and considering his competitors in that area-Miguel Lora, Rocky Valdez, Caraballo (not that you would know a thing about those guys), that says something. He's on most All Time Great lists, with wins over Hall of Famers Esteban De Jesus and defensive master Nicolino Locche (which I guess you didn't have time to pick up as you quickly skimmed to make your piss poor argument in defense of poor Floyd). He won his title by stopping Alfonso "Peppermint" Frazier, the man who first dethroned Locche from his title, and Soul Mamby, who went the distance with Duran and stopped De Jesus himself. This is along with the number of top ranked contenders from the era you've also never heard of. The fact that Cervantes never fought Duran is considered one of the most missed-out opportunities of the era (along with Leonard-Pryor.) His piston-like jab and chopping right hand, combined with his ring generalship and control of distance, speaks for itself on film. Try giving it a watch sometime. It's what got him 123 wins in 142 fights.

Now, onto Benitez. Benitez became the *youngest boxing world champion in history* by outpointing Antonio Cervantes at *17 years old.* That win by itself is in many ways more valuable than wins over Corrales, Castillo, or a faded De La Hoya. But if you're not satisfied there, Benitez outpointed a still competent Duran, who went to accomplish much more than the version of De La Hoya that Floyd fought. You should really think about what you say before you set yourself up to be utterly embarrassed. Cherry picking one point on Benitez's resume without knowing shit about it, and ignoring the bigger point against you, which is that it's not even the best win on Benitez's resume :lol:

Class is over, you're free to go.


----------



## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Congratulations tliang, you are the ultimate flomo.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Copying and pasting a fighter's resume from Boxrec. It doesn't get more self-defeating than that.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> First of all, you've just admitted that you don't know who Antonio "Kid Pambele" Cervantes is by pulling some typical boxrec warrior shit. He's the best fighter to ever come out of Colombia, and considering his competitors in that area-Miguel Lora, Rocky Valdez, Caraballo (not that you would know a thing about those guys), that says something. He's on most All Time Great lists, with wins over Hall of Famers Esteban De Jesus and defensive master Nicolino Locche (which I guess you didn't have time to pick up as you quickly skimmed to make your piss poor argument in defense of poor Floyd). He won his title by stopping Alfonso "Peppermint" Frazier, the man who first dethroned Locche from his title, and Soul Mamby, who went the distance with Duran and stopped De Jesus himself. This is along with the number of top ranked contenders from the era you've also never heard of. The fact that Cervantes never fought Duran is considered one of the most missed-out opportunities of the era (along with Leonard-Pryor.) His piston-like jab and chopping right hand, combined with his ring generalship and control of distance, speaks for itself on film. Try giving it a watch sometime. It's what got him 123 wins in 142 fights.
> 
> Now, onto Benitez. Benitez became the *youngest boxing world champion in history* by outpointing Antonio Cervantes at *17 years old.* That win by itself is in many ways more valuable than wins over Corrales, Castillo, or a faded De La Hoya. But if you're not satisfied there, Benitez outpointed a still competent Duran, who went to accomplish much more than the version of De La Hoya that Floyd fought. You should really think about what you say before you set yourself up to be utterly embarrassed. Cherry picking one point on Benitez's resume without knowing shit about it, and ignoring the bigger point against you, which is that it's not even the best win on Benitez's resume :lol:
> 
> Class is over, you're free to go.


You are getting predictable. I knew boxrec warrior is coming up. *I have already talked about the usefulness of boxrec for research* as well as keeping you bias dweebs in check who desperately trying to be seen knowledgeable but overdo and saying some stupid shit like what you have already posted.

blah blah blah. 90% of the fighters doesn't even have footage or very few footage to be more useful then boxrec. Believe it or not you can learn something by analyzing data/reading.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Copying and pasting a fighter's resume from Boxrec. It doesn't get more self-defeating than that.


:yep

"Widely known as the best junior welterweight of all time? But...but...look at his boxrec page!!! Bums I tell you!"


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Copying and pasting a fighter's resume from Boxrec. It doesn't get more self-defeating than that.


as oppose in being gullible? This ain't my first rodeo.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You are getting predictable. I knew boxrec warrior is coming up. *I have already talked about the usefulness of boxrec for research* as well as keeping you bias dweebs in check who desperately trying to be seen knowledgeable but overdo and saying some stupid shit like what you have already posted.
> 
> blah blah blah. 90% of the fighters doesn't even have footage or very few footage to be more useful then boxrec. Believe it or not you can learn something by analyzing data/reading.


You just tried to shit on arguably the greatest junior welterweight in history in order to detract from the youngest champion in boxing history using a fucking record archive without ever having watched the man fight. Sit the fuck down boy.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> as oppose in being gullible? This ain't my first rodeo.


You could always go to Youtube and watch some of Cervantes title defenses. No? Okay.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :yep
> 
> "Widely known as the best junior welterweight of all time? But...but...look at his boxrec page!!! Bums I tell you!"


Doesn't change the fact that he fought well over 80 bums.


----------



## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

Posting for entertainment tracking purposes.
This thread is gold.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> You could always go to Youtube and watch some of Cervantes title defenses. No? Okay.


I already did. Expected fireballs and flying dragon punches but oh is just same ole boxing. He is way better than JMM, Cotto, Oscar and Shane. yup uh huh


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Doesn't change the fact that he fought well over 80 bums.


Congratulations asshat, you've cornered yourself into the only defense you have, which is that Cervantes won a bunch of less meaningful fights on top of the great ones he has. As if that takes away anything :lol: It didn't have to be this way tony. You could have just left it alone, instead you tried to discredit an ATG by shitting on an ATG he beat, WHO YOU NEVER SAW FIGHT, and fucking embarrassed yourself. Why do you do this? Is it that important to you that Floyd be portrayed in the best positive light at all times? Seriously, you just got taken to school and you can't admit you were wrong because of your obsession. You need help.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> I already did. Expected fireballs and flying dragon punches but oh is just same ole boxing. He is way better than JMM, Cotto, Oscar and Shane. yup uh huh


I don't recall anybody here saying Cervantes was "way better" than JMM, Cotto, Oscar and Shane.

But yeah, you should leave quickly before Bogo clowns you any further.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh look at 18:00 where cervantes throw that slow jab then same slow jab that he has been throwing but I'm cool to hype up fighters from the past.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Congratulations asshat, you've cornered yourself into the only defense you have, which is that Cervantes won a bunch of less meaningful fights on top of the great ones he has. As if that takes away anything :lol: It didn't have to be this way tony. You could have just left it alone, instead you tried to discredit an ATG by shitting on an ATG he beat, WHO YOU NEVER SAW FIGHT, and fucking embarrassed yourself. Why do you do this? Is it that important to you that Floyd be portrayed in the best positive light at all times? Seriously, you just got taken to school and you can't admit you were wrong because of your obsession. You need help.


Blah blah blah. long winded of excuses.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

tilang you are a funny ass dude


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> A highlight video isn't what I'm going off of. That video is going to show him clown and use his upper body movement in the most dramatic ways.* Benitez's record-breaking performances against Cervantes (a better win than any Floyd has on his record)*, his competitive effort against Leonard, his win over a still competent Duran, and the fact he went 12 against Hearns, that all speaks to his defensive brilliance. His parrying, control of distance, subtle head movement, use of his shoulder positioning, rolling with punches, was just brilliant. I know for a fact you haven't seen all those fights. Don't argue until you have. Some highlight video is not going to communicate the subtle brilliance.
> 
> Benitez never looked highly outgunned with respect to speed to my eyes. It definitely helped Leonard beat him to the punch, particularly with his jab, but it never overwhelmed Benitez. Floyd is faster, but Leonard is faster than anyone Floyd has fought as well.


LOL @Peddler who is trying to stand up for his bf.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Tilang is just a more versatile version of Vladimir23.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Blah blah blah. long winded of excuses.


No need to find excuses for greatness. Your ignorance, however, could sure use one right now. Too bad you have none left and you're completely fucking defeated. Learn your lesson this time around so you don't have to get slapped around based on ignorant shit you reach for when you tremble at the thought of Floyd being inferior in any respect to anyone in history.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

This whole thread is a lot alike of the video i posted with me more like Stephen Smith dealing with several Skip Bayless. All we are missing is just SRL but wait the video I posted... he already said that Floyd belongs and that most people including his bro thinks that he will lose to Floyd.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Dissin Cervantes lol.. Comin at cervantes technique, yet you big up corrales floyds best win who was nowhere near his level. All that height an didnt know how to use it, an had the ring iq of a fuckin fruit fly


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> LOL @Peddler who is trying to stand up for his bf.


You think that phrase is so funny? You want to praise boxrec as a determinate tool while laughing at the idea that Cervantes is arguably the best Junior Welterweight ever?










Would you look at that! Boxrec has Cervantes at number 5 of all time in the division, with Locche, a man he beat, above him, and the great Julio Cesar Chavez at the top.

Damn it just doesn't get any fucking worse for you. Just stop. Take the L and go home. Seriously, this is some flesh wound shit.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No need to find excuses for greatness. Your ignorance, however, could sure use one right now. Too bad you have none left and you're completely fucking defeated. Learn your lesson this time around so you don't have to get slapped around based on ignorant shit you reach for when you tremble at the thought of Floyd being inferior in any respect to anyone in history.


Tremble? I never said Floyd can't be beaten. compare to the crazy shit like you say. JMM is smarter than Floyd, Cervantes tops every floyd opponent, Duran is more skilled, Floyd's weakness is that he leans on the front foot when he fights 80% on his back foot. You just try to act smart but you overdo it and you got exposed period.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> This whole thread is a lot alike of the video i posted with me more like Stephen Smith dealing with several Skip Bayless. All we are missing is just SRL but wait the video I posted... he already said that Floyd belongs and that most people including his bro thinks that he will lose to Floyd.


That don't mean anything though. George Foreman said Lennox Lewis is the greatest HW of all times. 
You can't seriously say Foreman is less credible than Leonard.
So we can now assume Lewis is the greatest heavyweight of all times.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> LOL @Peddler who is trying to stand up for his bf.


He said "a better win". Do you not really understand the difference?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You think that phrase is so funny? You want to praise boxrec as a determinate tool while laughing at the idea that Cervantes is arguably the best Junior Welterweight ever?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea almost as bad as you trying to deny Floyd's resume. Everyone knows you are bias poster so stop pretending.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

What makes you so butt hurt over Floyd? I'm actually curious.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Tremble? I never said Floyd can't be beaten. compare to the crazy shit like you say. JMM is smarter than Floyd, Cervantes tops every floyd opponent, Duran is more skilled, Floyd's weakness is that he leans on the front foot when he fights 80% on his back foot. You just try to act smart but you overdo it and you got exposed period.


How the fuck did I get exposed when all you did was copy and paste a boxrec record of a man you never saw fight? You're a fucking idiot who shoots himself in the foot every time he opens his mouth. You tried to shit on Cervantes, clearly ignorant of the fact he's universally considered GREAT. Nice job. Now you're backtracking and distracting to try and salve face and salvage some shred of dignity.

Duran is more skilled than Floyd, and it's evident in the way he beat and competed against the greater opponents. He weaved his offense and defense together in a way Floyd doesn't. Of course, you have no technical argument to contest this.

Floyd got clocked while leaning on the front foot against Judah. Don't make me bring those pictures up again, that was a fucking embarrassment for you in which the whole forum took the time to ridicule you.

JMM may or may not be smarter than Floyd, but he has less height, speed, reach, reflexes, and still has the greater pair of wins on his record.

Here you are, trying to stick up for Floyd, so damn desperate to be right, and you're only more and more wrong with every breath. Just stop.



tliang1000 said:


> Yea almost as bad as you trying to deny Floyd's resume. Everyone knows you are bias poster so stop pretending.


Deny Floyd's resume? How? He's an undeniable ATG. In this thread alone, I haven't said anything negative about Floyd's resume, I simply put it in historical perspective against Benitez and Leonard.

No dumbass, everyone knows you're a delusional troll. I was voted best poster of the forum. Now sit the fuck down before you start bleeding from this fucking beating :lol: If there was a forum hell I'd be going to it for the damage I'm having you inflict on your own self right now.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> He said "a better win". Do you not really understand the difference?


Which every angle you trying to use it is still not true.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> How the fuck did I get exposed when all you did was copy and paste a boxrec record of a man you never saw fight? You're a fucking idiot who shoots himself in the foot every time he opens his mouth. You tried to shit on Cervantes, clearly ignorant of the fact he's universally considered GREAT. Nice job. Now you're backtracking and distracting to try and salve face and salvage some shred of dignity.
> 
> Duran is more skilled than Floyd, and it's evident in the way he beat and competed against the greater opponents. He weaved his offense and defense together in a way Floyd doesn't. Of course, you have no technical argument to contest this.
> 
> ...


Oh you are holding on to this like your life is depending on it. Hey don't get mad bc I copied and pasted his choices of opponents. Did you feel any better that i dug up his fight and pasted it on here so you can show me HOW GREAT HE IS?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Oh you are holding on to this like your life is depending on it. Hey don't get mad bc I copied and pasted his choices of opponents. Did you feel any better that i dug up his fight and pasted it on here so you can show me HOW GREAT HE IS?


:lol: I love watching you squirm. I love it. It's like watching a 3 legged piglet try to save itself from drowning in a mud puddle.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I like how you nuthug everyone pitted against Floyd. Everyone from the past is a killer except Floyd. Kind of contradiction don't you think?


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> as oppose in being gullible? This ain't my first rodeo.


So what are you saying? That Floyd would beat Leonard,Hearns,Robinson etc?

Floyd is an ATG.. but you keep ignoring the fact this guy is not an actual 147-154 pounder. 
I'm sorry.. the guys Floyd is matched to H2H is not fair to Floyd but it is what it is.

Bob Foster might beat Povetkin, he might beat Tommy Morrison, but he isn't beating Lennox Lewis,Muhammad Ali,Wladimir Klitschko,Mike Tyson etc etc etc...

Floyd is not a legit 147-154 pounder. He's a good 147 fighter.. maybe very good.. he's not great.

Floyd will not beat any of the natural 147-154 ATG'S..

These guys all punch harder than Floyd, they are all bigger, most of them are just as skilled, and they all have better offenses. They will fuck him up.
(Leonard,Hearns,Mccallum,Robinson,etc etc)


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Which every angle you trying to use it is still not true.


Benitez was a 17 year old baby when he dethroned a very experienced, very talented long-reigning champion in Antonio Cervantes. It's a fantastic win regardless, but given that Benitez was so young and inexperienced at world level, the win becomes even more of an achievement.

Take Duran's victory over Barkley, for example. On the face of things it isn't that notable of a victory, but given that Roberto Duran was a 37 year old natural Lightweight and that Barkley was a huge Middleweight with genuine knockout power, the win all of a sudden becomes monumental. Is this making sense?

DLH could conceivably be considered a greater fighter than Cervantes overall, but he was past his best by the time he ran into Floyd Mayweather. The weight-issues surrounding the JMM win detracts from that victory also. It's all about putting victories into perspective.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :lol: I love watching you squirm. I love it. It's like watching a 3 legged piglet try to save itself from drowning in a mud puddle.


yeah sure. Oh you showed me. You completely change my perspective. I wanna be just like BOZO and pretend i'm cool. I should start digging up all the past dudes and hype them up. Ones with BIG records and then if someone says who? I'll be like BOZO and be like OH YOU DIDN'T KNOW? Meanwhile Floyd is being considered TBE/Top 10 ATGs by boxers and trainers. They of course is not as knowledgeable as BOZO of course.


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## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I like how you nuthug everyone pitted against Floyd. Everyone from the past is a killer except Floyd. Kind of contradiction don't you think?


Floyd lost around 7-8 rounds against a badly faded Oscar and fellow midget Cotto..................147+ is just not his weight class.
Nobody said Floyd will get owned by Pryor now did they? 
Nobody's against Floyd but you are pitting him against higher weight ATG'S and that's absurd.
Who has he beaten at 147+ to indicate he stands a chance against those bigger guys?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> So what are you saying? That Floyd would beat Leonard,Hearns,Robinson etc?
> 
> Floyd is an ATG.. but you keep ignoring the fact this guy is not an actual 147-154 pounder.
> I'm sorry.. the guys Floyd is matched to H2H is not fair to Floyd but it is what it is.
> ...


I guess you missed my post about my take with him and the fab4 h2h.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> yeah sure. Oh you showed me. You completely change my perspective. I wanna be just like BOZO and pretend i'm cool. I should start digging up all the past dudes and hype them up. Ones with BIG records and then if someone says who? I'll be like BOZO and be like OH YOU DIDN'T KNOW? Meanwhile Floyd is being considered TBE/Top 10 ATGs by boxers and trainers. They of course is not as knowledgeable as BOZO of course.


That's right, keep trying to be like me, and you won't get fucking laughed into a forum vacation every time you make a thread.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Floyd lost around 7-8 rounds against a badly faded Oscar and fellow midget Cotto..................147+ is just not his weight class.
> Nobody said Floyd will get owned by Pryor now did they?
> Nobody's against Floyd but you are pitting him against higher weight ATG'S and that's absurd.
> Who has he beaten at 147+ to indicate he stands a chance against those bigger guys?


Floyd won 8-4 against Oscar, same with Cotto.
Judging by your score then he should've lost.

Again is pointless to hold parts where Floyd struggled while every boxer has struggle at any type of opposition at some point.

These are the type of talks you see in forum from trolls. You don't see Pro boxers saying shit like this bc is boxing it happens.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That's right, keep trying to be like me, and you won't get fucking laughed into a forum vacation every time you make a thread.


Keep posing brother. Keep trying to impressive others and suck people's dick some more. I know your life is about this forum even though you seem quite loserish.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Keep posing brother. Keep trying to impressive others and suck people's dick some more. I know your life is about this forum even though you seem quite loserish.


Impress others? You came at me by quoting and trying to diss my point, which you knew nothing about, because you're a nuthugger with no historical knowledge. Then I schooled you, and you're here 5 pages later trying to save face. Keep the insults coming, it's all you have left after being exposed as a fucking idiot.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Another funny thing is that i am talking about one of the greatest boxers ever on this forum and i am debating with people about his greatness but yet I AM WRONG Isn't a bit ironic?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

It's best to just shut the fuck up when fighters are being discussed that you've not seen much of or know much about. I learned that lesson the hard way a long time ago.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Impress others? You came at me by quoting and trying to diss my point, which you knew nothing about, because you're a nuthugger with no historical knowledge. Then I schooled you, and you're here 5 pages later trying to save face. Keep the insults coming, it's all you have left after being exposed as a fucking idiot.


Oh yeah you really exposed me on Floyd's weakness, Cervantes great career, Duran being more skilled, and JMM is a smarter fighter than Floyd, wilfred got equally good defense as Floyd, andFloyd will get beat by the FAB and etc. You are not bias one bit. Everything that you say is undisputed truth right bozo bc you know so much


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Oh yeah you really exposed me on Floyd's weakness, Cervantes great career, Duran being more skilled, and JMM is a smarter fighter than Floyd, Floyd will get beat by the FAB and etc. You are not bias one bit.


Glad you learned something.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> It's best to just shut the fuck up when fighters are being discussed that you've not seen much of or know much about. I learned that lesson the hard way a long time ago.


who gives a shit i'm not here to pretend. I'm not gullible either.


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## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> How can anyone be too slick for Floyd?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Glad you learned something.


Yup how to pose like BOZO volume I


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## Bjj_Boxer (Jun 17, 2013)

If SRL and Hearns were fighting in the WW division today, Floyd would be fighting at LWW. Stop with all this. Floyd loses to SRL.


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## Indigo Pab (May 31, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I was voted best poster of the forum.


Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh you're hard.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Pabby said:


> Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh you're hard.


:ibutt


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

SRL knocks him the fuck out. Different level of fighters here.


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

Gold. I tell you, pure gold!


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd easily destroys Leonard @ 130lbs :deal


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> How the fuck did I get exposed when all you did was copy and paste a boxrec record of a man you never saw fight? You're a fucking idiot who shoots himself in the foot every time he opens his mouth. You tried to shit on Cervantes, clearly ignorant of the fact he's universally considered GREAT. Nice job. Now you're backtracking and distracting to try and salve face and salvage some shred of dignity.
> 
> Duran is more skilled than Floyd, and it's evident in the way he beat and competed against the greater opponents. He weaved his offense and defense together in a way Floyd doesn't. Of course, you have no technical argument to contest this.
> 
> ...


:rofl


----------



## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

Leonard is wrong for Floyd. He's bigger, taller, longer reach, faster, stronger. He was a monster. He was a master boxer, he could slug it out, fight on the inside / outside. Great chin, KO power in both hands, demonic inside the ring. He was perfect. He was probably the best fighter I've ever seen on tape. I don't see any possible way Floyd beats him, and I'm being as objective as I can be.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Nope










Originally Posted by *tliang1000*  
Yeah i don't know about that. *Floyd is just overall better and SRL* doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd _*and imo is outgunned.*_
Nope


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

There is no way Floyd is more skilled than Duran. Duran would beat every guy Floyd faced with ease. If you put Duran in Floyd's era he would lay a path of destruction beating the shit out of every one of them. How can you argue against that. On the other hand if you put Floyd in Durans era there is no fucking way he comes out with that precious 0.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

rossco said:


> There is no way Floyd is more skilled than Duran. Duran would beat every guy Floyd faced with ease. If you put Duran in Floyd's era he would lay a path of destruction beating the shit out of every one of them. How can you argue against that. On the other hand if you put Floyd in Durans era there is no fucking way he comes out with that precious 0.


Skill is what Floyd got. It is what he is known for. Duran is skilled as well but he is more known for his other attributes such his aggressiveness, chin and being able to rough guys up and pretty hard hitting.

Of course no one knows for sure and is all fantasy talk but it is pretty apparent who is more skilled. He may not be the strongest, toughest, the most hard hitting but i think more people would agree that Floyd display more skillset than the fab 4.


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

SRL was better. To me, it's not even debatable. But he can't change people's opinions, and there's no sense in using his energy in an effort that would be perceived as bashing Mayweather.

Younger fans who weren't around for SRL or who don't seriously study film will look at the current great guy. It's natural.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's just insane to me that people believe they can legitimately criticize and nitpick Leonard's record.


Sorry I didn't read much into the nitpicks, I just scanned and saw the "well Leonard beat Benitez down" and had myself a little chuckle like it means anything in a Mayweather bout. Mayweather Leonard would be pretty boring IMO


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Sorry I didn't read much into the nitpicks, I just scanned and saw the "well Leonard beat Benitez down" and had myself a little chuckle like it means anything in a Mayweather bout. Mayweather Leonard would be pretty boring IMO


Ray has an answer for dat defensive wizardry dawg.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Benitez was just as good a defensive fighter as floyd with heavier hands.


No :lol:

Floyd may well be the greatest D specialist of all time aside from maybe Whitaker.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Ray has an answer for dat defensive wizardry dawg.


No doubt but anyone acting like beating Benitez is some clear benchmark for beating Mayweather hasn't watched much from that era. Completely different styles. I think it'd be more ray going HAM on Floyd in spurts like Oskee did in the early rounds, than it being some technical breakdown ala SRL/Wilfred


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Skill is what Floyd got. It is what he is known for. Duran is skilled as well but he is more known for his other attributes such his aggressiveness, chin and being able to rough guys up and pretty hard hitting.
> 
> Of course no one knows for sure and is all fantasy talk but it is pretty apparent who is more skilled. He may not be the strongest, toughest, the most hard hitting but i think more people would agree that Floyd display more skillset than the fab 4.


In terms of all round skill Floyd is not top tier. Floyd is ridiculously good at what he does but he's not as dynamic as a Duran or Leonard. Duran had great offence, defence, technicality, athleticism, power, chin, aggression, dirty tricks, etc. On top of that Duran has GOAT faint variety and an ability to integrate offence to defence and back with a speed and fluidity Floyd could only dream of. Duran also had great footwork in terms of always being in position to throw punches no matter what position his body is in at the time and he was more fleet of foot than Floyd who is more economical in terms of footwork. Duran in his prime had all the attributes to impose his will on any fighter in the history of the sport. Duran in my opinion is the most all round skilled fighter we have extensive footage of. Floyd as great as he is in this era would be in all kinds of trouble if he faced greats of older era's who were technically and athletically far superior to the chumps Floyd has been feasting on in this era.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

rossco said:


> In terms of all round skill Floyd is not top tier. Floyd is ridiculously good at what he does but he's not as dynamic as a Duran or Leonard. Duran had great offence, defence, technicality, athleticism, power, chin, aggression, dirty tricks, etc. On top of that Duran has GOAT faint variety and an ability to integrate offence to defence and back with a speed and fluidity Floyd could only dream of. Duran also had great footwork in terms of always being in position to throw punches no matter what position his body is in at the time and he was more fleet of foot than Floyd who is more economical in terms of footwork. Duran in his prime had all the attributes to impose his will on any fighter in the history of the sport. Duran in my opinion is the most all round skilled fighter we have extensive footage of. Floyd as great as he is in this era would be in all kinds of trouble if he faced greats of older era's who were technically and athletically far superior to the chumps Floyd has been feasting on in this era.


atsch

Floyd would go through Duran's lightweight reign unscathed. He wouldn't have been sat on his ass by Dejesus twice either.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> atsch
> 
> Floyd would go through Duran's lightweight reign unscathed. He wouldn't have been sat on his ass by Dejesus twice either.


:deal


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

rossco said:


> In terms of all round skill Floyd is not top tier. Floyd is ridiculously good at what he does but he's not as dynamic as a Duran or Leonard. Duran had great offence, defence, technicality, athleticism, power, chin, aggression, dirty tricks, etc. On top of that Duran has GOAT faint variety and an ability to integrate offence to defence and back with a speed and fluidity Floyd could only dream of. Duran also had great footwork in terms of always being in position to throw punches no matter what position his body is in at the time and he was more fleet of foot than Floyd who is more economical in terms of footwork. Duran in his prime had all the attributes to impose his will on any fighter in the history of the sport. Duran in my opinion is the most all round skilled fighter we have extensive footage of. Floyd as great as he is in this era would be in all kinds of trouble if he faced greats of older era's who were technically and athletically far superior to the chumps Floyd has been feasting on in this era.


You know I would agree if you ask me who would win toe to toe, outslug, outfight, outbrawl between Floyd or Duran but there is no way I can agree with all around skillset. The only person who is more impressive than Floyd on Film is Roy Jones.

Durans makes a lot more mistake and technical flaws but really it is not his style to be pretty anyways.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Let Tiliang start on ROY JONES again





PityTheFool said:


> Roy "NOT the greatest I've ever seen" Jones?
> That guy?





tliang1000 said:


> You know I would agree if you ask me who would win toe to toe, outslug, outfight, outbrawl between Floyd or Duran but there is no way I can agree with all around skillset. *The only person who is more impressive than Floyd on Film is Roy Jones.*


:smug :happy :ibutt!!!


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Tell me what lightweight floyd beat thats better than Dejesus and Buchanan. Ndou? Castillo?


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> atsch
> 
> Floyd would go through Duran's lightweight reign unscathed. He wouldn't have been sat on his ass by Dejesus twice either.


It's quite possible that Floyd would lose if he's fighting 6-7 times a year like Duran did during his Lightweight reign. Besides, if Castillo can give Floyd problems so can De Jesus and Buchanan.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Who did he put that D on the line against? Tell me.


turbotime said:


> No :lol:
> 
> Floyd may well be the greatest D specialist of all time aside from maybe Whitaker.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You know I would agree if you ask me who would win toe to toe, outslug, outfight, outbrawl between Floyd or Duran but there is no way I can agree with all around skillset. The only person who is more impressive than Floyd on Film is Roy Jones.
> 
> Durans makes a lot more mistake and technical flaws but really it is not his style to be pretty anyways.


In terms of all round skill set Duran ticks more boxes and his skill set was tested by truly great fighters in their prime when he was past his prime fighting much bigger men. Floyds skill set has not been tested by a great fighter in their prime and all the big guys he's fought pale in comparison to that who Duran faced. Schooling Alvarez was not impressive because he is flat footed and kinda shit. He would be nothing in Durans era and I say that lightly.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> It's quite possible that Floyd would lose if he's fighting 6-7 times a year like Duran did during his Lightweight reign. Besides, if Castillo can give Floyd problems so can De Jesus and Buchanan.


A big portions of Duran his fights were tune ups because he had a tendency to blow up after fights and activity was there to keep him in shape.
Floyd doesn't need tune ups.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Let Tiliang start on ROY JONES again





PityTheFool said:


> Roy "NOT the greatest I've ever seen" Jones?
> That guy?





Pedderrs said:


> It's quite possible that Floyd would lose if he's fighting 6-7 times a year like Duran did during his Lightweight reign. Besides, if Castillo can give Floyd problems, so can De Jesus and Buchanan.


Castillo was a monster at lightweight (really a welterweight) and Floyd beat him 2 times,. Dejesus may nick some earrly rounds but it'd be all over after that. Dejesus isn't dynamic or strong enough to outbox Mayweather. Same with Buchanan. Castillo IMO beats both


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Who did he put that D on the line against? Tell me.


You don't really need me to tell you?


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Yeah remind me of these greats that floyd beat that make his D up there with Benitez who did it against legit all time greats. Floyds consitency over good opposition over a long ass stretch makes him great.


turbotime said:


> You don't really need me to tell you?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Yeah remind me of these greats that floyd beat that make his D up there with Benitez who did it against legit all time greats. Floyds consitency over good opposition over a long ass stretch makes him great.


I'm scratching my head wondering what about Benitez' D impresses you so much? He got stopped by Leonard, beat quite handily by Hearns and friggen Hamsho/Moore. Guys far below Floyd's level.

Or Because he is from the Bronx?


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

dyna said:


> A big portions of Duran his fights were tune ups because he had a tendency to blow up after fights and activity was there to keep him in shape.
> Floyd doesn't need tune ups.


Duran's loss to De Jesus was a non-title bout, 5 months after he had taken the title from Ken Buchanan. I'm well aware that Duran wasn't fighting monsters every time out, but lacing up the gloves 6-7 times a year is vastly different to fighting only twice a year like Floyd typically would. I'm not sure he could take on Duran's Lightweight schedule and remain undefeated. We tend to see Floyd as being infallible and yet the likes of Castillo, DLH, and even Cotto all got to Floyd during their respective bouts with him. Far from infallible.



> I'm scratching my head wondering what about Benitez' D impresses you so much? He got stopped by Leonard, beat quite handily by Hearns and friggen Hamsho/Moore. Guys far below Floyd's level.


:lol: Yes, Benitez showcases elite level defense against the likes of fuckin' Leonard and Hearns whilst Floyd is dancing around the likes of Jose Luis Castillo, Diego Corrales, and Carlos Baldomir. Leet skillz!


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

You pulled the Davey Moore fight out lol. Benitez was done. They sent his ass up back an forth to the catskills with cus who couldnt even handle Benitez bad habits at that point. Shot an all about partying. I love benitez to answer your question one of the first fighters my dad had me watch.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> atsch
> 
> Floyd would go through Duran's lightweight reign unscathed. He wouldn't have been sat on his ass by Dejesus twice either.


I think you underrate the lightweight era Duran Dominated. Duran may have been sat on his ass by Dejesus but Floyd wouldn't have stopped Dejesus twice. Prime DeJesus and Buchanan are far better fighters than anything Floyd faced at lightweight and even above if I'm honest. Buchanan was an outstanding boxer mover and as tough as nail. He would have gave Floyd hell at lightweight. Maybe even taking that 0.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

An even with his losses he still notched better scalps than floyd ever did. I mean hell so did james toney. They showcased their defense against better fighters. Couldnt give two fucks about a hernandez win or a Baldomir win lol.. No disrespect to them.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> You pulled the Davey Moore fight out lol. Benitez was done. They sent his ass up back an forth to the catskills with cus who couldnt even handle Benitez bad habits at that point. Shot an all about partying. I love benitez to answer your question one of the first fighters my dad had me watch.


If he was such a defensive wizard he wouldn't have gotten slapped up. Look at Whitaker and Pep, guys in fucking plane wrecks / coked out and tiny... Benitez doesn't get a special pass because of "bad habits"


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> An even with his losses he still notched better scalps than floyd ever did. I mean hell so did james toney. They showcased their defense against better fighters. Couldnt give two fucks about a hernandez win or a Baldomir win lol.. No disrespect to them.


So did Buster Douglas and Kid Chocolate. No offense to them.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Wilfredo doesnt need a pass he beat hall of famers and atgs. You can give floyd a pass though for that garbage ass opposition lol.


turbotime said:


> If he was such a defensive wizard he wouldn't have gotten slapped up. Look at Whitaker and Pep, guys in fucking plane wrecks / coked out and tiny... Benitez doesn't get a special pass because of "bad habits"


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Wilfredo doesnt need *a pass he beat hall of famers and atgs.* You can give floyd a pass though for that garbage ass opposition lol.


atsch

So did Mayweather.


----------



## r1p00pk (Jun 13, 2013)

my god this thread. unbelievable stuff here. lots of things that I learned. the only reason I don't criticize the past fighters and compare is because I have no idea about the history. I think everyone should follow that until they really watch those past fights to learn.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Castillo was a monster at lightweight (really a welterweight) and Floyd beat him 2 times,. Dejesus may nick some earrly rounds but it'd be all over after that. Dejesus isn't dynamic or strong enough to outbox Mayweather. Same with Buchanan. Castillo IMO beats both


Buchanan was tall, strong at the weight and as tough as nails. On top of that he had one of the best jabs seen in any lightweight boxer EVER. He was a beautiful boxer and moved so much better than Floyd ever did. Castillo could never in a million years beat Buchanan. I suspect your trolling turbo.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

I rank floyd kinda how I rank larry holmes. His dominance and years of consistency over good but not great opponents are what makes him great to me. Comin out unscathed against good opposition through so many years is great, but i cant just say he had better D than this dude an that dude an this dude because his opposition really isnt that good. But im out so peace thats just me


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Turbo there is no need to compare Benitez to Douglas now. Clear difference.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I am seeing a lot of people just flat out want to say that Duran, SRL and Hearn are that much better than Oscar, Cotto, JMM, Shane, Castillo, Canelo and etc. Thats fine and dangy but answer me this.... if they are so God like then why did they lose to lessor guys then? Why did they lose at all?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

The fab four were close to each others weight making them rivals so they get extra credit for fighting their rivals in their division? So who has Floyd been fighting then? Outside of Manny he fought a lot of his rivals.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

i didnt even bother replying to that one lol. Turbo knows better than that


Bogotazo said:


> Turbo there is no need to compare Benitez to Douglas now. Clear difference.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Because my dick thats why


tliang1000 said:


> I am seeing a lot of people just flat out want to say that Duran, SRL and Hearn are that much better than Oscar, Cotto, JMM, Shane, Castillo, Canelo and etc. Thats fine and dangy but answer me this.... if they are so God like then why did they lose to lessor guys then? Why did they lose at all?


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Originally Posted by *tliang1000*
> Yeah i don't know about that. *Floyd is just overall better and SRL* doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd _*and imo is outgunned.*_
> Nope


You do realise that that is his uncle and trainer right? Not some unbiased boxing analyst or expert...


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Theron don't know shit bout boxing.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

troll thread big time. I'm outa here.

Have fun lads


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Another thing that really surprised me is that there is so many so called know it all boxing experts here but if you see interviews on the net about Floyd being an ATG, vs fab 4 most people think it would be EXTREMELY competitive. But if you read on this forum you would think Floyd is a fraudulent fighter.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> You do realise that that is his uncle and trainer right? Not some unbiased boxing analyst or expert...


I realize that but he is knowledgeable and he dismisses his nephew in surpassing SRR.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Robert Garcia said a few years ago that manny would beat floyd. That must mean its true right Tilang? Because a trainer said it..


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I realize that but he is knowledgeable and he dismisses his nephew in surpassing SRR.


Yeah and so does his dad cause they know Ray Robinson is the best. Are we all supposed to not think and say hes better because his uncle says so.. Have your own brain and think


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Robert Garcia said a few years ago that manny would beat floyd. That must mean its true right Tilang? Because a trainer said it..


So i should believe you instead? 
You think Floyd's opposition is weak when in reality it isn't.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Yeah and so does his dad cause they know Ray Robinson is the best. Are we all supposed to not think and say hes better because his uncle says so.. Have your own brain and think


I've been saying Floyd is the most skilled way before i saw Roger said so just so you know. I am about the only few who can break out of this forum group think that most of you guys love to be in.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Tliang, go watch some Boxing.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Brnxhands said:


> An even with his losses he still notched better scalps than floyd ever did. I mean hell so did james toney. They showcased their defense against better fighters. Couldnt give two fucks about a hernandez win or a Baldomir win lol.. No disrespect to them.


 :good Absolutly spot on! James Toney is just another example of a boxer who is streets ahead of this phantom farce Mayweather:deal

Fuckin skills!!! If mayweather had the skills he would'nt have spent these last 6 years avoiding all clear & present dangers, his resume is piss poor at best! Mayweather is just a gob shyte fraud, if Castillo can fuck him up & Judah best him for 5 rounds then Mayweather's gonna get fuckin murdered by Duran/SRL/Hearns & co. Only a premature ejaclator would think that mayweather has more skill!!!! SKILL? What fucking SKILL? Sqeaking past an old man in DLH, WBU standard HATTON! C Level scrapper GATTI, D Level BAG of CEMENT Baldomir:lol:

Mayweather is a joke & the jokes on boxing! Mayweather is shit scared to fight a midgit:deal How the fuck can anyone with an ounce of common sence say that this fraud Mayweather has more skill that Duran:lol: If the likes of SRL can have his arse handed to him then how the fuck is this one punch at a time! Stay on the ropes! Hide behind the shoulder & hope for the best! Where is the skill that will nullify Duran's all out assault & how the fuck is Mayweather going to be even able to breath!

Where is this so called skill that mayweather possess that can overcome the titans! He ai'nt fuckin got what it takes period! He'll always look good against selected opponants. But there is absolutly no way that he could ever overcome the premier league boxers like Duran/SRL/Benitez & Hearns. Mayweather is tailor-made for Duran & Duran is one of the slickest boxers out there, go read what Angelo Dundee said about him. AS an ealier poster quite rightly pointed out, these daft cunts who coo over Floyds cock don't actually understand the real meaning of Skill or as to how it ought to be correctly defined & presented. If mayweather had all this vaunted SKILL he'd not be the coward he is! Would he:lol:


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> If the likes of SRL can have his arse handed to him then how the fuck is this one punch at a time!


Yo Hands of Iron. ...I know you're trollin', and I'm gonna let you finish, but Duran beat Leonard by a couple of points. A couple of points.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Yo Hands of Iron. ...I know you're trollin', and I'm gonna let you finish, but Duran beat Leonard by a couple of points. A couple of points.


You think that's my post? :lol:


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> You think that's my post? :lol:


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

lol I didnt know what the hell to make of this post when i read it.


Hands of Iron said:


> :good Absolutly spot on! James Toney is just another example of a boxer who is streets ahead of this phantom farce Mayweather:deal
> 
> Fuckin skills!!! If mayweather had the skills he would'nt have spent these last 6 years avoiding all clear & present dangers, his resume is piss poor at best! Mayweather is just a gob shyte fraud, if Castillo can fuck him up & Judah best him for 5 rounds then Mayweather's gonna get fuckin murdered by Duran/SRL/Hearns & co. Only a premature ejaclator would think that mayweather has more skill!!!! SKILL? What fucking SKILL? Sqeaking past an old man in DLH, WBU standard HATTON! C Level scrapper GATTI, D Level BAG of CEMENT Baldomir:lol:
> 
> ...


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

I've come to the conclusion that no one knows anything about boxing, myself included.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


>


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

From what TiFagliang is saying about Floyd.. seems like Floyd can TKO a Roided up 2009-2010 Pacquaio with one hand.

Why didn't he fight roid Pac than?

What's steroids compare to the greatest fighter of all times? Pac need the roids just to make it fair.


Looks like Tifag have more confidence in bitch Floyd than Bitch Floyd did himself.

You best kid midget floyd's dick out your asshole Tiliang.. or Ellerbe gonna hunt you down.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)




----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Leonard staged superfights like every few months.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Why the fuck are we all arguing without actual facts and rankings?

We should just find some legitimiate rankings done by famous boxing writers and historians.

People who are actually part of that inner circle.. not just forum people.

Here's a comprehensive top 100 ATG Rankings article done by a young up and coming boxing analyst.

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...hters-of-all-times-CountDown-10-Peter-Jackson


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

that list is better than burt sugars


----------



## bald_head_slick (May 23, 2013)

Mayweather's prime was NOT at WW. 

Another crap question by Skip Bayless.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Brnxhands said:


> that list is better than burt sugars


Frankenfrank had Toney Top 3 P4P :lol:


----------



## jaymon112 (May 24, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Why the fuck are we all arguing without actual facts and rankings?
> 
> We should just find some legitimiate rankings done by famous boxing writers and historians.
> 
> ...


No one gives a fuck about your shot posts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

jaymon112 said:


> No one gives a fuck about your shot posts.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:lol: Don't lie. You looked at that list more than once.
You probably begging for your favorite fighter to be top 10.

You do realize that in 40 years time my list will be viewed in the same way as Bert Sugar's right?


----------



## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> As far as catching Duran at the right time, well yeah he's probably my second favorite boxer ever and did have shit preparation for it. At the same time @Bogotazo @JMP He did enter the ring as the #1 P4P fighter in the sport, he _was_ 29 years old, he _was_ only five months removed from the greatest performance of his career and Leonard probably gets little to no credit for jumping right back into the ring against the guy who'd just handed him ass and shown he could outskill him from more than just close quarters (and Leonard FOUGHT like the proud all-time great he is). Judging from how Duran looked thereafter - far more rigid, less fluid in his defensive upperbody movement, diminished reflexes - I don't know that waiting would've elevated the win any more. I put it down with his 3rd or 4th best though due to the grievances even though he's the greatest guy on his record.


Well said, HoI.

How do you feel about Duran's physical form and performance against Benitez? I didn't think he was poorly trained for that one (a rarity in his post-Leonard win days), but I think it showcased his diminished physical tools and highlighted Benitez's superiority over him at that particular time and weight. Things would've gone quite differently at their welterweight peak forms IMO, but I'm not really of the opinion he half-assed that one and could've brought a much better package.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

JMP said:


> Well said, HoI.
> 
> How do you feel about Duran's physical form and performance against Benitez? I didn't think he was poorly trained for that one (a rarity in his post-Leonard win days), but I think it showcased his diminished physical tools and highlighted Benitez's superiority over him at that particular time and weight. Things would've gone quite differently at their welterweight peak forms IMO, but I'm not really of the opinion he half-assed that one and could've brought a much better package.


Actually addressed that in another post. I think it may of been the best preparation and conditioning of his entire post-SRL career.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@JMP

They did nice work on this:






Career Recap not a 'Highlight video' as they traditionally are.

Pretty big slip not mentioning Marcel though.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Oh that dude lol. I jave James around 25 though alot of people would laugh at that too.I been watchin sal sanchez lately. Incredible talent.


Hands of Iron said:


> Frankenfrank had Toney Top 3 P4P :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

rossco said:


> Buchanan was tall, strong at the weight and as tough as nails. On top of that he had one of the best jabs seen in any lightweight boxer EVER. He was a beautiful boxer and moved so much better than Floyd ever did. Castillo could never in a million years beat Buchanan. I suspect your trolling turbo.


Castillo was bigger and stronger than Buchanan :conf

I'm the one trolling but Buchanan was a way better mover than Mayweather? Christ sakes.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Because my dick thats why


Sober up :lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Turbo there is no need to compare Benitez to Douglas now. Clear difference.


and the other one?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Sober up :lol:


Brnxhands can get get nasty.



Brnxhands said:


> dont get smart with me you little fuck. save that arizona sass for the next man


:lol:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

I liked the deoderant thread better


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

lol I was fuckin with you. Im drunk now at a pizza shop


Hands of Iron said:


> Brnxhands can get get nasty.
> 
> :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Brnxhands said:


> lol I was fuckin with you. Im drunk now at a pizza shop


Nah it was hilarious :lol: like most things on here


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Personally i think Shane hits harder than SRL.


Nah. SRL knocked guys the fuck out at higher weights (better opposition too)


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I liked the deoderant thread better


Toxic stuff.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :good Absolutly spot on! James Toney is just another example of a boxer who is streets ahead of this phantom farce Mayweather:deal
> 
> Fuckin skills!!! If mayweather had the skills he would'nt have spent these last 6 years avoiding all clear & present dangers, his resume is piss poor at best! Mayweather is just a gob shyte fraud, if Castillo can fuck him up & Judah best him for 5 rounds then Mayweather's gonna get fuckin murdered by Duran/SRL/Hearns & co. Only a premature ejaclator would think that mayweather has more skill!!!! SKILL? What fucking SKILL? Sqeaking past an old man in DLH, WBU standard HATTON! C Level scrapper GATTI, D Level BAG of CEMENT Baldomir:lol:
> 
> ...


Fraud Mayflower don't have the legs of Buchanan either blat blat


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :good Absolutly spot on! James Toney is just another example of a boxer who is streets ahead of this phantom farce Mayweather:deal
> 
> Fuckin skills!!! If mayweather had the skills he would'nt have spent these last 6 years avoiding all clear & present dangers, his resume is piss poor at best! Mayweather is just a gob shyte fraud, if Castillo can fuck him up & Judah best him for 5 rounds then Mayweather's gonna get fuckin murdered by Duran/SRL/Hearns & co. Only a premature ejaclator would think that mayweather has more skill!!!! SKILL? What fucking SKILL? Sqeaking past an old man in DLH, WBU standard HATTON! C Level scrapper GATTI, D Level BAG of CEMENT Baldomir:lol:
> 
> ...


...

is it wrong that I agree with some of this? :huh

only a little.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Fraud Mayflower don't have the legs of Buchanan either blat blat


 @duranimal is missed


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

TSOL said:


> ...
> 
> is it wrong that I agree with some of this? :huh
> 
> only a little.


I'd say yes


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Yeah dont ever take wht i say serious. 99 percent of the time im trollin fools on here. I started that burley thread to piss heads off


Hands of Iron said:


> Nah it was hilarious :lol: like most things on here


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @duranimal is missed


as is @Flea Man


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

This thread would be som much better if it were a pound 4 pound discussion. As it is, Floyd was a bit too small to say that he, fighting above his best weight, would beat Leonard at 147.

That's like saying someone like Morales or Barrera would beat Mayweather at 130 (although Bogo has made ridiculous statements along those lines in the past).


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Skill is what Floyd got. It is what he is known for. Duran is skilled as well but he is more known for his other attributes such his aggressiveness, chin and being able to rough guys up and pretty hard hitting.
> 
> Of course no one knows for sure and is all fantasy talk but it is pretty apparent who is more skilled. He may not be the strongest, toughest, the most hard hitting but i think more people would agree that Floyd display more skillset than the fab 4.


No.

Defensively, maybe.

But overall, SRL and Tommy Hearns were more skilled. Maybe Duran too.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Castillo was bigger and stronger than Buchanan :conf
> 
> I'm the one trolling but Buchanan was a way better mover than Mayweather? Christ sakes.


Yes, Buchanan moved better than Floyd. In terms of skill Floyd sits beside guys like Buchanan. He's not top tier skill level like a Duran or Napoles.

Sent from the hole in my cock using my wanking hand!


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> This thread would be som much better if it were a pound 4 pound discussion. As it is, Floyd was a bit too small to say that he, fighting above his best weight, would beat Leonard at 147.
> 
> That's like saying someone like Morales or Barrera would beat Mayweather at 130 (although Bogo has made ridiculous statements along those lines in the past).


No I haven't.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Broner is like a faster version of Leonard. Only slower.


The Castillo fight is one of Mayweather's least impressive perfomances.

Not the first one - that one says more about Mayweather's mental fortitude and heart rather than anything else.

But the second one.

Despite all of his defenisive wizardry and stylistic advantage Floyd failed to look convincing against what was a JL Ramirez/G.Torres-level fighter.

And Castillo is the best fighter Floyd has fought at lightweight/light welter.

I've got no problem with people favoring Floyd over anyone at superfeather.

Much more diverse than at higher weights, versatile boxer-puncher, big, lightning fast with excellent movement.

But Floyd at welter/light middle with limited offensive output and severely declined footwork?

Basically a poor man's Canto/Kalambay who looks like a bad Curry impersonator while in attacking mode.

That's not the kind of fighter one should favor over H2H-beasts unless his main goal is to become Ellerbe's employee of the months.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No I haven't.


It's not like I'm going to dig up old threads, but you referenced Mayweather/Chavez before and used the fight as evidence that Morales and Barrera could potentially beat Floyd at 130. You aren't as objective as you'd like to be.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> It's not like I'm going to dig up old threads, but you referenced Mayweather/Chavez before and used the fight as evidence that Morales and Barrera could potentially beat Floyd at 130. You aren't as objective as you'd like to be.


An inferior offensive fighter backed Floyd up, it's not unthinkable either of those two could do the same and do something with that. Augustus had Floyd sweating to put in work while backed up against the ropes 3 years later as well. Nothing there that lacks objectivity. People overrate Floyd at 130 compared to his later career, he was a beast offensively but lacked the polish and IQ he does at 147. The best Floyd has been at welterweight IMO.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> An inferior offensive fighter backed Floyd up, it's not unthinkable either of those two could do the same and do something with that. Augustus had Floyd sweating to put in work while backed up against the ropes 3 years later as well. Nothing there that lacks objectivity. People overrate Floyd at 130 compared to his later career, he was a beast offensively but lacked the polish and IQ he does at 147. The best Floyd has been at welterweight IMO.


And here we go.

An over-the-hill Morales and plain shot Barrera would trouble possibly the best ever at 130, yet it's blasphemy to say that a Mayweather still fighting at a high level could trouble ATG welterweights. Morales and Barrera accomplished nothing at 130 to even make such an assertion.

There's a sad irony to your Mayweather-related posts that you are, no doubt, blind to.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

steviebruno said:


> And here we go.
> 
> An over-the-hill Morales and plain shot Barrera would trouble possibly the best ever at 130, yet it's blasphemy to say that a Mayweather still fighting at a high level could trouble ATG welterweights. Morales and Barrera accomplished nothing at 130 to even make such an assertion.
> 
> There's a sad irony to your Mayweather-related posts that you are, no doubt, blind to.


So the Morales that beat Pacquiao can't possibly be more competitive than the much less accomplished Jesus Chavez against Mayweather? The Barrera that troubled Marquez and beat Morales decisively couldn't feasibly do better than Chavez jabbing and pressing either? Those points are debatable, but not dismissable. I have no strong opinion on the matter since I haven't sat down to really study the match-ups. But to suggest that either is a guaranteed easier fight than Chavez for Floyd, to me, betrays more bias than the suggestion that they would be competitive.

Who said it's blasphemy to say Floyd would trouble ATG welterweights? Floyd would by no means be an easy fight for Leonard. I have never shunned the idea Floyd wouldn't be competitive against Leonard, and I wouldn't shun the idea that Floyd could beat Leonard. Tliang is simply an idiot who makes statements with no supporting facts for the sole purpose of defending Floyd against any possible slight. But here you are, making assumptions about my opinions in order to paint me as biased, when I never present any critique of Floyd in the ring that doesn't have some valid basis. This isn't the first time you accuse me of bias against Floyd for entirely reasonable positions, and frankly, it's getting old.


----------



## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Basically a poor man's Canto/Kalambay who looks like a bad Curry impersonator while in attacking mode.


As you can probably tell from my avatar, I really like this part of your post a helluva lot.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> The Castillo fight is one of Mayweather's least impressive perfomances.
> 
> Not the first one - that one says more about Mayweather's mental fortitude and heart rather than anything else.
> 
> ...


Ouch.



JMP said:


> As you can probably tell from my avatar, I really like this part of your post a helluva lot.


Yeah, great avatar of Kalambay you've got there.

:lol:


----------



## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Benitez UD12/15 Trinidad


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.:good

I don't really do the whole back and forth thing in regards to fantasy matches of retired or dead fighters cause its not like our opinions can be proven otherwise.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Blanco said:


> That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.:good
> 
> I don't really do the whole back and forth thing in regards to fantasy matches of retired or dead fighters cause its not like our opinions can be proven otherwise.


Wasn't being too serious.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Who's that guy in your avatar?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Buchanan was a way better mover than Mayweather? Christ sakes.


Thats not really so crazy to say. Buchanan bad great movement and an iron chin.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

rossco said:


> Yes, Buchanan moved better than Floyd. In terms of skill Floyd sits beside guys like Buchanan. He's not top tier skill level like a Duran or Napoles.
> 
> Sent from the hole in my cock using my wanking hand!


Yes, yes it was.


----------



## SimplyTuck (Jun 4, 2013)

there is no case to be argued for Mayweather beating SRL


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## R00ster (Jan 29, 2014)

Nice post. Totally agree.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> No.
> 
> Defensively, maybe.
> 
> But overall, SRL and Tommy Hearns were more skilled. Maybe Duran too.


Bullshit. It is easy for People to say SRL and Hearns would beat Floyd bc they are bigger but both of them can't do what Floyd can do in the ring offense and defense wise. SRL and Hearns can't land nearly at will like Floyd. Floyd is way more accurate puncher than both of the two ATGs and far superior in defense. You hardly see SRL and definitely not Hearns doing leap hooks, check hooks, right over the top counters. Hearns footwork is no where as good as Floyd. He wobbles around the ring possibly due to his height. SRL got good footwork. Hearns was getting clocked by SRL's overhand right over and over again. Never adjusted.

There is plenty of footage online on the fighters. There is nothing that SRL and Hearns have in their arsenal that Floyd can't do better. (no troll replies, i'm talking technically)

Bottomline they are both just not as naturally gifted as Floyd.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

People who thinks tha SRL, Hearns, and Duran are more skilled is borderline delusional. They have the size, aggression, and more firepower but definitely not more skilled. It is flat out obvious. Everyone wants to fight like Floyd and his name is always mention as the most skilled not SRL, Hearns or Duran. Shit is ridiculous how much credit they get from fighting each other. People should realize that boxing was a lot more popular back then. More hype.


When Hagler biggest claim to fame is fighting undersize opponents moving up.
When Hearns fight undersize opponents even though he should be in middleweight/light heavy is the main reason why he was dominate
SRL and Duran are the two special fighters of the four.


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## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

Defensively, yes. Although I think Floyd is the best right now, he has never fought someone that we actually thought could beat him. He never took on another top dog, he missed his chance with Pacquiao. He displayed his skill numerous times with good fighters, but not elite like himself


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

paloalto00 said:


> Defensively, yes. Although I think Floyd is the best right now, he has never fought someone that we actually thought could beat him. He never took on another top dog, he missed his chance with Pacquiao. He displayed his skill numerous times with good fighters, but not elite like himself


How is JMM, Oscar, and Shane not elite? How is Castillo, Canelo not considered elite?
Floyd shut out JMM who is considered as one of the best mexican fighters today. So if he is able to shut him out so all of a sudden a level higher Floyd wouldn't land his punches or couldn't defend anymore? What the other elite fighters got 6 arms or what?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

pac was not his only rival. And Pac rejected a chance to fight Floyd 2x not the other way around.


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## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> How is JMM, Oscar, and Shane not elite? How is Castillo, Canelo not considered elite?
> Floyd shut out JMM who is considered as one of the best mexican fighters today. So if he is able to shut him out so all of a sudden a level higher Floyd wouldn't land his punches or couldn't defend anymore? What the other elite fighters got 6 arms or what?


Back in their day, yes. Canelo is not elite, he's still a kid and barely got past Trout. JMM was coming up to fight Floyd, the size difference was VERY noticeable. I'd favor JMM against Pac, but no one else in that weight class


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

paloalto00 said:


> Back in their day, yes. Canelo is not elite, he's still a kid and barely got past Trout. JMM was coming up to fight Floyd, the size difference was VERY noticeable. I'd favor JMM against Pac, but no one else in that weight class


I guess we shouldn't give Hagler's victory when he beat Duran and Hearns then since they moved up in weight. Take away Hearns victory over Duran too. Canelo may not be consider elite in your opinion but he was technically sound and skilled with a distinct size advantage and in prime while Floyd is 36 and way smaller fighter.


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

One thing we can all agree upon: if Floyd is so against fighting a former flyweight fighter from the Phillipines, he'll NEVER fight someone like SRL.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

rjjfan said:


> One thing we can all agree upon: if Floyd is so against fighting a former flyweight fighter from the Phillipines, he'll NEVER fight someone like SRL.


Hey Pactard. It was Pac who declined twice not the other way around.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

So JMM can move and challenge floyd and lose shouldn't get full credit
So Floyd can move up and fight Oscar and not get credit
Floyd can fight Shane coming off his second biggest victory and not get credit

But Hagler can get credit for fighting Hearns and Duran and SRL
Hearns can get credit for Duran

Some of you guys are just full of shit


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Hey Pactard. It was Pac who declined twice not the other way around.


"But what if I lose?" :lol:


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

rjjfan said:


> "But what if I lose?" :lol:


"i'm afraid of needles" :rofl


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

"I knew he was having trouble making weight so i told my manager to make the fight ASAP" -SRL


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## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I guess we shouldn't give Hagler's victory when he beat Duran and Hearns then since they moved up in weight. Take away Hearns victory over Duran too. Canelo may not be consider elite in your opinion but he was technically sound and skilled with a distinct size advantage and in prime while Floyd is 36 and way smaller fighter.


That's why I don't hold those losses against Duran, he was coming up fighting not only bigger guys, but the best. Duran imo is still the best lightweight. Canelo is good in the first few rounds, but then really gasses.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

paloalto00 said:


> That's why I don't hold those losses against Duran, he was coming up fighting not only bigger guys, but the best. Duran imo is still the best lightweight. Canelo is good in the first few rounds, but then really gasses.


That's not what i asked. Do you give Hearns and Hagler credit for beating Duran??


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> People who thinks tha SRL, Hearns, and Duran are more skilled is borderline delusional. They have the size, aggression, and more firepower but definitely not more skilled. It is flat out obvious. Everyone wants to fight like Floyd and his name is always mention as the most skilled not SRL, Hearns or Duran. Shit is ridiculous how much credit they get from fighting each other. People should realize that boxing was a lot more popular back then. More hype.


Different skillsets. It's delusional to say that Floyd is more skilled than them lol they have different styles. Floyd didn't fight the level of opposition that those guys did though so it's hard to rationally compare Floyd to the fab 4.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

and while we are discrediting wins over elites. Lets take away SRL's over Duran's since he purposely made Duran drained for the rematch.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> "i'm afraid of needles" :rofl


:rofl atsch


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Different skillsets. It's delusional to say that Floyd is more skilled than them lol they have different styles. Floyd didn't fight the level of opposition that those guys did though so it's hard to rationally compare Floyd to the fab 4.


First of all "those" guys didn't do any different from what fighters have done today.
Fought guys coming up in weight
Fought guys were they are on the decline. 
They were champion vs champion
Floyd was a champion fighting another champion

No difference. Just bc boxing was more popular doesn't make them some superman of boxing. More popular, more talk, more hype.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@tommygun

If they are so much greater than Floyd then WHY DID THEY LOSE TO B LEVEL FIGHTERS then. If they can be beat by people lessor then them then why is Floyd is undefeated?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> First of all "those" guys didn't do any different from what fighters have done today.
> Fought guys coming up in weight
> Fought guys were they are on the decline.
> They were champion vs champion
> ...


Hearns got spaked by Barkley. Barkley.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> That's not what i asked. Do you give Hearns and Hagler credit for beating Duran??


Not too much.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Not too much.


How about SRL's win over Duran then. Mr. I waited for him to pile up in weight.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Hearns got spaked by Barkley. Barkley.


Robearto(e) The Legend.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

And duran got 16 losses and he lost to Joppy. Floyd will NEVER lose to a Joppy. If Duran is so much better than Floyd then why was he beaten 16x and kd who knows how many times?


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## Hatesrats (Jun 6, 2013)

It's all about buttholes & opinions everyone has ONE something like that... :think


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hatesrats said:


> It's all about buttholes & opinions everyone has ONE something like that... :think


It is just people being Bias. Half of the shit i see people posting on here doesn't even make any sense.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Hearns got spaked by Barkley. Barkley.


I have no doubt that Barkley would have sparked Floyd with a JAB.

A JAB.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> How about SRL's win over Duran then. Mr. I waited for him to pile up in weight.


Quite a bit more actually. Duran was diabolically better at 147 than when he returned at 154+, he was coming off a career performance only five months earlier, was P4P #1 , had only the loss to DeJesus (avenged twice). A lot more credit. I don't think he could've done it twice even in perfect condition. He blew his load.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I have no doubt that Barkley would have sparked Floyd with a JAB.
> 
> A JAB.


Yeah no.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Robearto(e) The Legend.


arty


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Excuses must sound better or more legit when is the fighters u support i guess.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I actually think Leonard may have the BEST win over Duran. I mean, it can't be any worse than second anyway but Beartoe was.vastly superior in 1980 to the more crude '72 version. Teeters for physical condition which a big deal really wasn't made of by him or anyone until after the fact but yeah. Certainly the best wins over Hearns and Benitez snatching their zeros, best win over Kalule snatching his zero before he was dead at the weight.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> arty


He stepped right into the ring with Barkley after seeing him KO3 Hearns.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@turbotime Be EZ on Barkley too, mayne. That's probably Toney's best win at 168. Besides that, what he do? Beat Nunn and Johnson at 160, split with Old McCallum and lost to Tiberi. Roy Jones best win right there. He was also drained for that fight. This is why I laugh at discrediting Leonard's record. Like Corrales was any less drained than Duran in the second fight? Not to mention being insurmountably inferior? Whitaker beat Chavez at welter -- the fuck he do there? What'd Nelson do at 135? Who did McGirt beat at 147 aside from a past it Simon Brown that makes that win so great? I mean, he'd gotten stopped by Meldrick Taylor at 140. Sometimes you need to use your eyes and ability to gauge talent and skills to determine the value of an opponent and level of a win. I consider all of the aforementioned very good to great wins btw, I'm just sayin.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @turbotime Be EZ on Barkley too, mayne. That's probably Toney's best win at 168. Besides that, what he do? Beat Nunn and Johnson at 160, split with Old McCallum and lost to Tiberi. Roy Jones best win right there. He was also drained for that fight. This is why I laugh at discrediting Leonard's record. Like Corrales was any less drained than Duran in the second fight? Not to mention being insurmountably inferior? Whitaker beat Chavez at welter -- the fuck he do there? What'd Nelson do at 135? Who did McGirt beat at 147 aside from a past it Simon Brown that makes that win so great? I mean, he'd gotten stopped by Meldrick Taylor at 140. Sometimes you need to use your eyes and ability to gauge talent and skills to determine the value of an opponent and level of a win. I consider all of the aforementioned very good to great wins btw, I'm just sayin.


I agree here. Though in this weight cutting/gaining over night age does it really matter if Jones didn't beat Toney at 160 or 168? Imagine Toney getting down to 160 :stonk

Barkley is a great great win for Duran but A bad bad loss for Hearns (twice unavenged) if Hearns was this league above Mayweather like all the old timers in here believe he should have at least been able to even the score.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Sometimes you need to use your eyes and ability to gauge


Insurmountable task for most people.


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## Hatesrats (Jun 6, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I agree here. Though in this weight cutting/gaining over night age does it really matter if Jones didn't beat Toney at 160 or 168? Imagine Toney getting down to 160 :stonk
> 
> Barkley is a great great win for Duran but A bad bad loss for Hearns (twice unavenged) if Hearns was this league above Mayweather like all the old timers in here believe he should have at least been able to even the score.


Safe to say when people refer to Hearns as GREAT it's for his 147/154lbs days.
(Thats the Tommy most peeps are possibly referring to)


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hatesrats said:


> Safe to say when people refer to Hearns as GREAT it's for his 147/154lbs days.
> (Thats the Tommy most peeps are possibly referring to)


Yeah but this is what Mayweather's 5th weight class and Hearns gets sparked in only his 3rd and he wasn't a small 160 lb'er either.


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## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> How is JMM, Oscar, and Shane not elite? How is Castillo, Canelo not considered elite?
> Floyd shut out JMM who is considered as one of the best mexican fighters today. So if he is able to shut him out so all of a sudden a level higher Floyd wouldn't land his punches or couldn't defend anymore? What the other elite fighters got 6 arms or what?


JMM *was* bullshit though. JMM jumps two weight classes...and fucking Mayweather still comes in overweight :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I agree here. Though in this weight cutting/gaining over night age does it really matter if Jones didn't beat Toney at 160 or 168? Imagine Toney getting down to 160 :stonk


No, and you know damn well how I feel about Toney. I'm just throwing examples out there of these things aimed at detracting from Leonard's CV, I'm not trying to get at you or anything. The wins over Hearns and Benitez at 147 almost couldn't of possibly come at a better time, they're two of the most significant in the history of the welterweight division as far as I'm concerned. The dudes had spastic levels of formidability in there. Did Napoles or Gavilan seriously and honestly beat anyone better than them at 147? Like really. He probably does deserve more credit (compared to zero credit) for Duran II, he truly does. If nothing else, he would've been hard pressed to find a better fighter than the guy he met the first time as far as W-L-D opposition is concerned.



> Barkley is a great great win for Duran but A bad bad loss for Hearns (twice unavenged) if Hearns was this league above Mayweather like all the old timers in here believe he shoud have at least been able to even the score.


I don't think he was a league above. He was definitely one of the best I've ever seen at 147/154 though, right in there.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> No, and you know damn well how I feel about Toney. I'm just throwing examples out there of these things aimed at detracting from Leonard's CV, I'm not trying to get at you or anything. The wins over Hearns and Benitez at 147 almost couldn't of possibly come at a better time, they're two of the most significant in the history of the welterweight division as far as I'm concerned. The dudes had spastic levels of formidability in there. Did Napoles or Gavilan seriously and honestly beat anyone better than them at 147? Like really. He probably does deserve more credit (compared to zero credit) for Duran II, he truly does. If nothing else, he would've been hard pressed to find a better fighter than the guy he met the first time as far as W-L-D opposition is concerned.
> 
> I don't think he was a league above. He was definitely one of the best I've ever seen at 147/154 though, right in there.


Gotcha. I didn't know what you were getting at originally because you know I love me some Sugar Ray (Leonard)


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

TSOL said:


> JMM *was* bullshit though. JMM jumps two weight classes...and fucking Mayweather still comes in overweight :lol:


Yet Marquez didn't even want a rematch when he moved to 147 and sparked Manny.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Gotcha. I didn't know what you were getting at originally because you know I love me some Sugar Ray (Leonard)


Yes, Leonard gets more love from me than Robinson. I find them to be a helluva lot closer in terms of talent and skills than most people would admit and I think Leonard beat better fighters at the top of his ledger, taking the times fought into consideration. If people are going to aim at Leonard, then how bout the fact Gavilan was still a bit pre-prime and had already been beaten and dropped by Ike Williams? How about Henry not being anything close to a true welter, past his best and already defeated numerous times prior to Robinson? I'd also even take that Hagler, the '87 version, to pretty much have his way with any assortment of LaMotta/Turpin/Fullmer/Basilio, He could beat those guys in just about any way he saw fit, and there's about zilch chance any of them can hurt him.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> No, and you know damn well how I feel about Toney. I'm just throwing examples out there of these things aimed at detracting from Leonard's CV, I'm not trying to get at you or anything. The wins over Hearns and Benitez at 147 almost couldn't of possibly come at a better time, they're two of the most significant in the history of the welterweight division as far as I'm concerned. The dudes had spastic levels of formidability in there. Did Napoles or Gavilan seriously and honestly beat anyone better than them at 147? Like really. He probably does deserve more credit (compared to zero credit) for Duran II, he truly does. If nothing else, he would've been hard pressed to find a better fighter than the guy he met the first time as far as W-L-D opposition is concerned.
> 
> I don't think he was a league above. He was definitely one of the best I've ever seen at 147/154 though, right in there.


Hands... I think the Barkley vs Hearns fights happened at 160 right? I don't think Hearns was an ATG at 160..I feel like Hearns was lethal at 147 and utterly devastating at 154. 160 is pushing it for him.


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Yet Marquez didn't even want a rematch when he moved to 147 and sparked Manny.


Dont get me wrong I think Mayweather would've beat Marquez anyway, but the guy does everything he can to avoid taking a risk. Even paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to make the fight unfair and lock.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Hands... I think the Barkley vs Hearns fights happened at 160 right? I don't think Hearns was an ATG at 160..I feel like Hearns was lethal at 147 and utterly devastating at 154. 160 is pushing it for him.


Me too. :good

Leonard beating Hearns at 147 and BY FAR the best victory anybody had over him. It would've meant even more at 154 but we'll take it. 32-0, 30 KOs and favored to win. Absurd physical attributes, ATG right hand power, ATG jab, underrated boxing ability. Had absolutely splattered Cuevas in two in addition to several other wins over rated 147lbers Weston, Gray, Shields, Espada, Primera. Hearns didn't have the best RESUME at 147, but he was more proven there at a world level than some people would have you believe. He wasn't just blasting tomato cans. It also goes back to using your eyes and brain a little bit.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

TSOL said:


> Dont get me wrong I think Mayweather would've beat Marquez anyway, but the guy does everything he can to avoid taking a risk. Even paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to make the fight unfair and lock.


It wasn't that big of a deal to me. And honestly, Mayweather beating Marquez at 143 or whatever it was wouldn't mean that much to me either, despite them being career 126 and 130 lb'ers. Marquez just stayed cutting weight longer


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> It wasn't that big of a deal to me. And honestly, Mayweather beating Marquez at 143 or whatever it was wouldn't mean that much to me either, despite them being career 126 and 130 lb'ers. Marquez just stayed cutting weight longer


No touch on SRL/SRR? Search your feelings.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> No touch on SRL/SRR? Search your feelings.


:rofl

You know they're my #2 and 3 I've ever seen ever.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bullshit. It is easy for People to say SRL and Hearns would beat Floyd bc they are bigger but both of them can't do what Floyd can do in the ring offense and defense wise. SRL and Hearns can't land nearly at will like Floyd. Floyd is way more accurate puncher than both of the two ATGs and far superior in defense. You hardly see SRL and definitely not Hearns doing leap hooks, check hooks, right over the top counters. Hearns footwork is no where as good as Floyd. He wobbles around the ring possibly due to his height. SRL got good footwork. Hearns was getting clocked by SRL's overhand right over and over again. Never adjusted.
> 
> There is plenty of footage online on the fighters. There is nothing that SRL and Hearns have in their arsenal that Floyd can't do better. (no troll replies, i'm talking technically)
> 
> Bottomline they are both just not as naturally gifted as Floyd.


Like I said, Floyd has an edge in the realm of defence. To even suggest he has anything like SRL's offensive skills indicates you need to switch sports.

How'd you feel about checkers, or synchronized swimming ?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :rofl
> 
> You know they're my #2 and 3 I've ever seen ever.


Robearto(e) should've made that list.

I wish @PityTheFool would actually enjoy the first fight. It's a definitive all-time classic.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> People who thinks tha SRL, Hearns, and Duran are more skilled is borderline delusional. They have the size, aggression, and more firepower but definitely not more skilled. It is flat out obvious. Everyone wants to fight like Floyd and his name is always mention as the most skilled not SRL, Hearns or Duran. Shit is ridiculous how much credit they get from fighting each other. People should realize that boxing was a lot more popular back then. More hype.
> 
> *When Hagler biggest claim to fame is fighting undersize opponents moving up*.
> When Hearns fight undersize opponents even though he should be in middleweight/light heavy is the main reason why he was dominate
> SRL and Duran are the two special fighters of the four.


Well that clinches it for you ting-a-ling.

Water polo or competitive jerkin' off.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Robearto(e) should've made that list.
> 
> I wish @PityTheFool would actually enjoy the first fight. It's a definitive all-time classic.


Yeah he's in the top 10 though.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah he's in the top 10 though.


Yeah, but Top 10 is just so... not top five. It's icky.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah, but Top 10 is just so... not top five. It's icky.


top 6 then :ibutt!!!!


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> Like I said, Floyd has an edge in the realm of defence. To even suggest he has anything like SRL's offensive skills indicates you need to switch sports.
> 
> How'd you feel about checkers, or synchronized swimming ?


Ok so what do you think that SRL can do that Floyd couldn't?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

If Sugar Ray Leonard had defeated Hearns in a rematch, won a rubber match against Duran and defeated a better version of Hagler he'd have a chance to claim himself as GOAT

However he needed a miracle comeback vs Hearns, went 1 and 1 vs Duran, and fought Hagler when he was slipping.

I think Hearns was the better fighter, a motivated Duran would always give him hell and the Hagler that fought Hearns beats him


But we'll never know because Leonard didnt love the sport


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> Well that clinches it for you ting-a-ling.
> 
> Water polo or competitive jerkin' off.


His most well known bouts jerk off.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Ok so what do you think that SRL can do that Floyd couldn't?


At 130-140 Floyd was as complete as you can get

At 147-154 Floyd struggles throwing punches in bunches with accuracy whereas Leonard could rattle off 7 punch combos and each would land explosively

But its an unfair comparison considering Leonard would be doing it either at 175


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> At 130-140 Floyd was as complete as you can get
> 
> At 147-154 Floyd struggles throwing punches in bunches with accuracy whereas Leonard could rattle off 7 punch combos and each would land explosively
> 
> But its an unfair comparison considering Leonard would be doing it either at 175


I knew someone would bring up the shoe shinning flurries combos. To me a lot of SRL's offense was made to entertain. From a boxing strategy standpoint, it is not wise to do them for you could get countered. I have no doubt that Floyd can do those flurry combos but he chooses not to for obvious reasons.
:40 sec


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

SRL's aggressive coming to get ya offense approach would actually suit Floyd's Counter punches. Especially if SRL is foolish enough to go for those Flurries. He would without a doubt get interrupted and countered by uppercuts and str8.

Hearns style is best to beat Floyd of the Fab 4. He have the jab, the range, and the power. While I think p4p SRL is better fighter than Hearns due to him being smaller and adjust and adapt better than Hearns.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

If you compare the offense between the two greats. You can tell that Floyd is all business, offense and defense wise. SRL likes to entertain and leaves himself open while Floyd's eyes never leaves his opponents. Floyd fights in complete control and wins the rounds. SRL while have a good offense approach that most boxers can't handle does rely on being flashes and sway the judges and crowds.

Look at the highlights between the two fighters and you can tell who is a sharper puncher and who got more tricks up their sleeves. It is really apparent.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I knew someone would bring up the shoe shinning flurries combos. To me a lot of SRL's offense was made to entertain. From a boxing strategy standpoint, it is not wise to do them for you could get countered. I have no doubt that Floyd can do those flurry combos but he chooses not to for obvious reasons.
> :40 sec


Some of it was shoe shining and stuff for the crowd but he stopped a lot of fighters with those flurries amd got himself out of hairy situations with a lot of those flurries

Floyd accuracy drops the more punches he throws in a fight. While he is brilliant at disguising his intentions and landing punches his opponents dont see coming he doesnt throw the same combos he could rattle off without thinking at 130-140.

Also Floyd suffers in exchanges as well


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Robearto(e) should've made that list.
> 
> I wish @PityTheFool would actually enjoy the first fight. It's a definitive all-time classic.


I can watch it far more appreciatively nowadays mate.As you've heard me say that loss is almost as important to his legacy as some of his best wins.It's a wonderful fight and it's now like Kalambay beating the Snatcher in that I can enjoy it where I once hated it.

Now if you can excuse me for a sec,I have a ridiculous post to deal with...


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Some of it was shoe shining and stuff for the crowd but he stopped a lot of fighters with those flurries amd got himself out of hairy situations with a lot of those flurries
> 
> Floyd accuracy drops the more punches he throws in a fight. While he is brilliant at disguising his intentions and landing punches his opponents dont see coming he doesnt throw the same combos he could rattle off without thinking at 130-140.
> 
> Also Floyd suffers in exchanges as well


SRL usually bust them out after he stunned his opponents to force a stoppage from the ref. I actually think Floyd's WW counter punching style would be better suited against SRL. Although I prefer his boxer-puncher style in the lower weights but stylewise i think it would be good against Ray who is just more aggressive than Floyd.

I really don't think SRL can do his usual punches against Floyd like the flurries/showboating. Floyd hardly let his opponents tee off on him without countering the crap out of them and if you drop your guard, he'll catch you. The moment Oritz/Gatti/Shane looked away they get clocked.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bullshit. It is easy for People to say SRL and Hearns would beat Floyd bc they are bigger but both of them can't do what Floyd can do in the ring offense and defense wise. SRL and Hearns can't land nearly at will like Floyd. Floyd is way more accurate puncher than both of the two ATGs and far superior in defense. You hardly see SRL and definitely not Hearns doing leap hooks, check hooks, right over the top counters. Hearns footwork is no where as good as Floyd. He wobbles around the ring possibly due to his height. SRL got good footwork. Hearns was getting clocked by SRL's overhand right over and over again. Never adjusted.
> 
> There is plenty of footage online on the fighters. There is nothing that SRL and Hearns have in their arsenal that Floyd can't do better. (no troll replies, i'm talking technically)
> 
> Bottomline they are both just not as naturally gifted as Floyd.


This just proves you really have zero grasp on the nuances of boxing.
You take some of Floyd's strengths and because Tommy and Ray don't do them that means they're inferior?
Good God!:lol:
Leonard has probably got the best lead right hand of any orthodox boxer so that destroys your point about Ray countering.
Do you ever see Floyd sticking his chin out and throwing bolos against a guy as dangerous as Duran? 
Does Floyd have anywhere near the versatility of Ray Leonard?
Was it Leonard's fault that Duran put on weight and didn't train properly given it was Duran's responsibility to stay in top shape?
Does Floyd have a fraction of the finishing ability that Ray and Tommy have?
I'll give you a clue.It's either "no" or "stop talking shite."
Or perhaps it's both.
Floyd is one of my favourite boxers ever and I hate that you start these bullshit threads where I'm forced to go against a guy I'm a big fan of.The good thing is that decent posters gather because stupid and misleading threads are just too tempting to ignore and the need to put the truth across just had to be dealt with.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> This just proves you really have zero grasp on the nuances of boxing.
> You take some of Floyd's strengths and because Tommy and Ray don't do them that means they're inferior?
> Good God!:lol:
> Leonard has probably got the best lead right hand of any orthodox boxer so that destroys your point about Ray countering.
> ...


I don't give them their props? Almost every post i talked about their strengths. Don't be so butthurt. The whole time i'm just adding to the thread why Floyd would be competitve against SRL.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> This just proves you really have zero grasp on the nuances of boxing.
> You take some of Floyd's strengths and because Tommy and Ray don't do them that means they're inferior?
> Good God!:lol:
> Leonard has probably got the best lead right hand of any orthodox boxer so that destroys your point about Ray countering.
> ...


:deal


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Ok so what do you think that SRL can do that Floyd couldn't?


I just listed a couple in my last post. @MichiganWarrior has covered the combinations.I've dealt with finishing ability and the ability to change tactics can go on that list as well.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm a fan of the fab 4 too as well as Paciquao.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I don't give them their props? Almost every post i talked about their strengths. Don't be so butthurt. The whole time i'm just adding to the thread why Floyd would be competitve against SRL.


Even you're thread title is nonsense as it's used completely out of context.
And you've spent most of the thread saying Floyd is the best ever and that's it.You said "I got ex pros and trainers who say it" then bring his uncle and trainer on!:rofl
Now you're saying that you're just trying to say Floyd would be competitive?


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I knew someone would bring up the shoe shinning flurries combos. To me a lot of SRL's offense was made to entertain. From a boxing strategy standpoint, it is not wise to do them for you could get countered. I have no doubt that Floyd can do those flurry combos but he chooses not to for obvious reasons.
> :40 sec


thats from an amateur fight and hes definitely showing off.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

And I meant throwing bolos earlier.
Fuckin predictive texting!

Sent from my fucking annoying iphone5 using extreme frustration.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> I just listed a couple in my last post.
> @*MichiganWarrior* has covered the combinations.I've dealt with finishing ability and the ability to change tactics can go on that list as well.


I already said SRL is great at adjusting and that Hearns is not several posts ago. I'm aware of that. SRL is one of my favorite fighters as well. Again all i am doing is adding to the thread and you see how many name calling was directed to me just bc I am saying that it could go either way fantasy match wise.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> I'm a fan of the fab 4 too as well as Paciquao.


I know you sure as hell consider guys like SRL and Duran better than a lot of black-and-white old timers or no-filmers :lol:


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :deal


Remember the guy at the old place who said that in the 80's Ray and Roberto et al only had to stand and punch,whilst now boxing needs more thinking and no one can think during a fight like Floyd?:lol:


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I know you sure as hell consider guys like SRL and Duran better than a lot of black-and-white old timers or no-filmers :lol:


Whats the shit turbo said that made me lol? They beat up a lot of slow ass white boys or something? No offense to white people.

That and I know their record is super padded.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

so @tliang1000 would Floyd beat Hearns?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> so @*tliang1000* would Floyd beat Hearns?


I never once said Floyd would beat Hearns from ESB days to now. Style + size is all wrong for Floyd. If Hearns doesn't have the size along with that style or the size without the style then yea FLoyd can win but he got both.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> And I meant throwing bolos earlier.
> Fuckin predictive texting!
> 
> Sent from my fucking annoying iphone5 using extreme frustration.


Lol


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Remember the guy at the old place who said that in the 80's Ray and Roberto et al only had to stand and punch,whilst now boxing needs more thinking and no one can think during a fight like Floyd?:lol:


The "Brawl in Montreal" contains as much skill as you'll ever see in a boxing match. Roberto was too fucking natural for this boxing shit... he took the stuff Arcel and Brown fed him and mastered it to _nth_ degrees.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Remember the guy at the old place who said that in the 80's Ray and Roberto et al only had to stand and punch, whilst now boxing needs more thinking and no one can think during a fight like Floyd?:lol:


Sometimes it feels like people think me and @Bogotazo or @JMP are psychos going on about Duran's level of defensive capabilities. Not "for an aggressive, come-forward guy" (which I mean, sure) but in general. Period. It's all right there on the tape. Duran had a monster chin and he may of been on crack that night, but Leonard would've otherwise taken his head off with the manner he was sitting down on his shots and throwing bombs. It ain't just us though

_*"Moving fluidly and jabbing, slipping punches and countering rather than swarming over DeJesus, he stalked him, relentlessly wearing him down and coolly destroying him with savage punches to the body. For 11 rounds Duran bested the classic boxer at his own game, robbing him of his speed and his will to fight, and only then did he permit himself the luxury of putting DeJesus away."

~ Sports Illustrated, Jan. 30, 1978

"One gets the impression of Duran is that he's a tough, rough brawler who just wades in and ducks nothing. But all you have to do is look at his face to see that is nonsense. He's not marked up. He does a lot of cute things in there."

~ Angelo Dundee, Hall of Fame trainer

"He's good inside, very good, strong physically. The one thing that surprised me the most was his quickness. And his defensive ability. He moves his head a lot, feints a lot. He's not an easy man to hit."

~ Carlos Palomino, Hall of Fame welterweight

"Duran actually isn't easy to hit like everyone thinks."

~ Ray Leonard

"Duran has been very under-rated defensively by some analysts. He had good head movement, slipped punches, and got angles on his opponent's inside. When he slipped those punches he would always be in punching position to land power shots with full balance and leverage. When he was hit he would usually roll with the punch to reduce its effectiveness. He would usually parry an opponent's jab when he was going to rush inside. Duran was also a master at feinting. He would feint with the lead right and if his opponent's would lean back, which is a popular tactic amongst modern boxers, they would expose their body and Duran would cleverly switch his attack with a left hook counter to the liver."

~ Monte Cox, boxing historian

"Duran's always been the master at defense, that's one of his trademarks."

~ Al Bernstein, Hall of Fame commentator*_


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I never once said Floyd would beat Hearns from ESB days to now. Style + size is all wrong for Floyd. If Hearns doesn't have the size along with that style or the size without the style then yea FLoyd can win but he got both.


So if Hearns wasn't Hearns, Floyd would beat him?

What about Benitez or Duran?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> So if Hearns wasn't Hearns, Floyd would beat him?
> 
> What about Benitez or Duran?


Both would lose to Floyd as well.

SRL vs Floyd can go either way for me.
SRR would beat Floyd
Hagler would beat Floyd
Hearns would beat Floyd


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Both would lose to Floyd as well.
> 
> SRL vs Floyd can go either way for me.
> SRR would beat Floyd
> ...


I really think Floyd's style would lend himself to Duran. Duran would penetrate Floyd's offense. Would be a great fight but I don't think Floyd would be able to establish much at all offensively against Duran, and I can see Duran finding different areas of Floyd's body to pounce on when Floyd would use his shoulder roll and be able to press Floyd for all 12/15 rounds. Its a no brainer for me.

Benitez would be a chess match imo, would have been great to watch, and I could potentially see Floyd taking that. He would be facing a style totally foreign to anything he's ever seen, and that's a big reason I think it's ridiculous to try to say Floyd would beat these guys, without considering their chances. Benitez would definitely win some rounds in that fight though.

Yeah, Hagler beats Floyd up, I mean that's a fucking middleweight right there. He would stop him. Not up for debate.


----------



## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> That's not what i asked. Do you give Hearns and Hagler credit for beating Duran??


Not much, I take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I really think Floyd's style would lend himself to Duran. Duran would penetrate Floyd's offense. Would be a great fight but I don't think Floyd would be able to establish much at all offensively against Duran, and I can see Duran finding different areas of Floyd's body to pounce on when Floyd would use his shoulder roll and be able to press Floyd for all 12/15 rounds. Its a no brainer for me.
> 
> Benitez would be a chess match imo, would have been great to watch, and I could potentially see Floyd taking that. He would be facing a style totally foreign to anything he's ever seen, and that's a big reason I think it's ridiculous to try to say Floyd would beat these guys, without considering their chances. Benitez would definitely win some rounds in that fight though.
> 
> Yeah, Hagler beats Floyd up, I mean that's a fucking middleweight right there. He would stop him. Not up for debate.


I think WW version Floyd would not do good against Duran but the pot shoting Floyd would.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Sometimes it feels like people think me and @Bogotazo or @JMP are psychos going on about Duran's level of defensive capabilities. Not "for an aggressive, come-forward guy" (which I mean, sure) but in general. Period. It's all right there on the tape. Duran had a monster chin and he may of been on crack that night, but Leonard would've otherwise taken his head off with the manner he was sitting down on his shots and throwing bombs. It ain't just us though
> 
> _*"Moving fluidly and jabbing, slipping punches and countering rather than swarming over DeJesus, he stalked him, relentlessly wearing him down and coolly destroying him with savage punches to the body. For 11 rounds Duran bested the classic boxer at his own game, robbing him of his speed and his will to fight, and only then did he permit himself the luxury of putting DeJesus away."
> 
> ...


Exactly. Not "decent for a come-forward guy". No, just good. When he simply played defensive boxer against Palomino, the results spoke for themselves. He was like a whirlwind of upper body movement. His offense was also measured and so well timed in that fight. The use of the jab as a distraction to set up the right, the slip/righthand counter.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I think WW version Floyd would not do good against Duran but the pot shoting Floyd would.


WW version would get beat up if Duran is in palomino/Leonard I form, pot shotting Floyd would run into the same problems (not sure which weight class you're talking about here)


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> WW version would get beat up if Duran is in palomino/Leonard I form, pot shotting Floyd would run into the same problems (not sure which weight class you're talking about here)


I think if they fought below 140 Floyd will get a decision quite easy. Floyd has very fast feet at that weight and darting in and out attacking and jumping out of range and constant lateral movements. However if Floyd fights in the pocket with Duran it would not be wise and he would get his ass kicked.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I think if they fought below 140 Floyd will get a decision quite easy. Floyd has very fast feet at that weight and darting in and out attacking and jumping out of range and constant lateral movements. However if Floyd fights in the pocket with Duran it would not be wise and he would get his ass kicked.


Below 147 Duran was actually faster and more vicious. He had more intensity. His hands were faster and he strung more combinations together. Duran had fast feet and I have no doubt that he would cut the ring off on Floyd. Buchanan couldn't do it, who had movement just as good as Floyd. Floyd wouldn't be able to fight the whole fight that way and I think he would find himself on the ropes eventually.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Sometimes it feels like people think me and @Bogotazo or @JMP are psychos going on about Duran's level of defensive capabilities. Not "for an aggressive, come-forward guy" (which I mean, sure) but in general. Period. It's all right there on the tape. Duran had a monster chin and he may of been on crack that night, but Leonard would've otherwise taken his head off with the manner he was sitting down on his shots and throwing bombs. It ain't just us though
> 
> _*"Moving fluidly and jabbing, slipping punches and countering rather than swarming over DeJesus, he stalked him, relentlessly wearing him down and coolly destroying him with savage punches to the body. For 11 rounds Duran bested the classic boxer at his own game, robbing him of his speed and his will to fight, and only then did he permit himself the luxury of putting DeJesus away."
> 
> ...


I think Duran is perhaps the best exponent of the feint in the modern era.His genius is still underrated because he is a far more complete fighter than he's given credit for.
Watch the way he can feint a jab and go straight to the body with a left then right hook.That's a hard combo to get your feet right.
Too many times to pick one example.He could be three steps ahead at his best and ironically,Floyd's brilliant defence with his elbows can be very reminiscent of Duran at times.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Below 147 Duran was actually faster and more vicious. He had more intensity. His hands were faster and he strung more combinations together. Duran had fast feet and I have no doubt that he would cut the ring off on Floyd. Buchanan couldn't do it, who had movement just as good as Floyd. Floyd wouldn't be able to fight the whole fight that way and I think he would find himself on the ropes eventually.


Well Floyd is very physically strong at 130-140 as well. Even if Duran does get Floyd in the corner he still have to keep him there. Floyd was able to throw Corrales around when they fought who outweigh him by 15-20lbs on fight night. Is going to be Floyd's speed vs Duran power imo. Floyd may not hit as hard but it doesn't mean he isn't as strong.

Even just displayed recently that Canelo couldn't even outmuscle Floyd. And Floyd was physically stronger than Mosley as well.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Well Floyd is very physically strong at 130-140 as well. Even if Duran does get Floyd in the corner he still have to keep him there. Floyd was able to throw Corrales around when they fought who outweigh him by 15-20lbs on fight night. Is going to be Floyd's speed vs Duran power imo. Floyd may not hit as hard but it doesn't mean he isn't as strong.
> 
> Even just displayed recently that Canelo couldn't even outmuscle Floyd. And Floyd was physically stronger than Mosley as well.


Floyd would not be physically stronger than Duran. There's no way he's pushing him off on the inside. Duran would corner him, he's better on the inside, period.


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## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

I dont know if Leonard or Hearns could get through Mitchell, Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, Marquez, Ortiz, Mosley, and Guerrero at 147. They'd likely be ruined by the end of that murders row lineup. 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Floyd would not be physically stronger than Duran. There's no way he's pushing him off on the inside. Duran would corner him, he's better on the inside, period.


Well i haven't seen anyone out muscled Floyd yet and I don't see Duran out speed Floyd and he wouldn't beat Floyd on the outside either.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

I wonder if Mayweather could beat Espada, Cuevas, Shields, and that killer that drove the cabs part-time.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

JMP said:


> I dont know if Leonard or Hearns could get through Mitchell, Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, Marquez, Ortiz, Mosley, and Guerrero at 147. They'd likely be ruined by the end of that murders row lineup.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


Yeah I don't know if Duran can beat up Joppy either. Or if SRL can beat camacho or terry norris.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yeah just look at how much stronger he is the Dejesus at 5:45 in a clinch. SO STRONG. The myth of special boxers from the past.
A 5'4 midget was able to hold his own with Duran toe to toe.:huh


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

And while Duran is a vicious aggressive fighters let not talk about his wild looping punches.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

look at 9:57 Dejesus where outmuscled Duran and rocked him back with a left hook. People on here talk as if Duran is some miniature hulk.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

damn near everytime Him and Dejesus clinch he gets hooked. Brillant defense i tell ya


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Duran gets outboxed from the outside by Dejesus and tries to hold and hit damn near everytime they clinch and gets hit at the end of the sequence over and over again. OH I AM SOLD THAT HE CAN TRAP FLOYD. More like get his ears boxed off more like it with that wild looping shit.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

You guys want to look at clips lets LOOK AT IT. See how Ordinary Duran looks. Hardly the superman you guys describe.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

JMP said:


> I dont know if Leonard or Hearns could get through Mitchell, Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, Marquez, Ortiz, Mosley, and Guerrero at 147. They'd likely be ruined by the end of that murders row lineup.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


Leonard and Hearns began their careers at 147. Floyd began his career at 130. Bit different methinks.

Ask Hearns if size matters vs iran Barkley


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

More holding and hitting. I see a lot of fouls in this fight WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? Point me to where I should be WOW by the Beast that is Duran?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Leonard and Hearns began their careers at 147. Floyd began his career at 130. Bit different methinks.
> 
> Ask Hearns if size matters vs iran Barkley


Don't bother talking to these brainwashed idiots. Everyone Floyd fights is shit except for their fighters but then you investigate and then is like YEAH. . . . . . . .


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I could make a highlight for this fight and it would be 15 mins worth of clinches.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

:rofl Tilang going in.


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## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah just look at how much stronger he is the Dejesus at 5:45 in a clinch. SO STRONG. The myth of special boxers from the past.
> A 5'4 midget was able to hold his own with Duran toe to toe.:huh


Just cause he's 5'4 doesn't mean he can't be a strong guy, Gamboa is around the same height and we all know how strong he is.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

JMP said:


> I dont know if Leonard or Hearns could get through Mitchell, Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, Marquez, Ortiz, Mosley, and Guerrero at 147. They'd likely be ruined by the end of that murders row lineup.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


Hey everyone from that lineup is taller than 5'4 FYI. You should give a round of applause for the little midget beating the BEAST OF DURAN.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Blanco said:


> Just cause he's 5'4 doesn't mean he can't be a strong guy, Gamboa is around the same height and we all know how strong he is.


I think u miss my point. You got BOzo on here saying how much stronger Duran is than Floyd and how he would corner him and rape his ass. smh

Oh wait... we are talking about Duran's opponent? They are all BEASTS! nm


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> :rofl Tilang going in.


Yeah myths don't fly with me. I got youtube. And this is not the first fight that Duran fight in this sloppy as manner either. But SOME will call in brillant. He is just SEARCHING for that perfect time to clinch so he can begin his assault. and if Duran is outside of the range, he might throw a jab MAYBE two before HURLING himself into another clinch.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

He's gone full retard now.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Maybe thats why there aren't as much Duran highlights. It would be like 20mins worth of stand up UFC. Who wants to see that?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> He's gone full retard now.


I'm just describing what i am seeing here. Sloppy clinch fest. When was Floyd sloppy like this? Oh yeah Sloppy >>>> fundamentally sound


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah myths don't fly with me. I got youtube. And this is not the first fight that Duran fight in this sloppy as manner either. But SOME will call in brillant. He is just SEARCHING for that perfect time to clinch so he can begin his assault. and if Duran is outside of the range, he might throw a jab MAYBE two before HURLING himself into another clinch.


Mayweather is too crisp and tight of a fighter for Duran to beat up like people believe. I favour Duran of course but I don't think he is going to go in and just throw Floyd around and slap him up


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

What a fucking bull he is! Yeah you guys convinced me that Floyd can't get away now. SOOOOOOOOOO CONVINCED!


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather is too crisp and tight of a fighter for Duran to beat up like people believe. I favour Duran of course but I don't think he is going to go in and just throw Floyd around and slap him up


We got a lot of blind people on this forum is the only explanation. Floyd 5x sharper Duran and i'm being nice bc so many butt hurt old folkys on here and newbie ass lickers.


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## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

Relax tliang :lol:

You're vigorously debating something that can't be proven otherwise


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

And everytime i watched some old fights with the "FAB FOUR" I just see some ordinary shit. Shit that looks less impressive than what Floyd can do. 

But oh yeah is the OPPOSITION WAS BETTER and then I search their opposition and see some even worse shit. SMFH.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Blanco said:


> Relax tliang :lol:
> 
> You're vigorously debating something that can't be proven otherwise


Oh i can prove it. One idiot at a time. You guys want me to break down all the classic sloppy hype shit i can bc they are plenty.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

yeah man its a damn shame they couldnt let loose on fighters like ricky hatton and carlos baldomir


tliang1000 said:


> And everytime i watched some old fights with the "FAB FOUR" I just see some ordinary shit. Shit that looks less impressive than what Floyd can do.
> 
> But oh yeah is the OPPOSITION WAS BETTER and then I search their opposition and see some even worse shit. SMFH.


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## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Oh i can prove it. One idiot at a time. You guys want me to break down all the classic sloppy hype shit i can bc they are plenty.


Nah what I mean is that you and others cant prove who wins in fantasy fights involving dead or retired fighters so its just the same ol' cycle over and over.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Well i haven't seen anyone out muscled Floyd yet and I don't see Duran out speed Floyd and he wouldn't beat Floyd on the outside either.


Cotto forced Floyd to the ropes repeatedly.










Mosley looked to have the strength advantage early before he became gunshy. He was manhandling Floyd at times.










So I'd expect Duran, who pushed back the bigger-framed Leonard, to be able to physically impose himself on Floyd. Not entirely, but he'd have the strength advantage.

Floyd has the advantage on the outside, but even there, not by much, Duran was so good at timing an opponent at the end of his punches. Not that it matters, Duran would close the distance.


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

that cotto fight was beautiful. floyd stood right there in front of him an outbrawled him, broke him down with the sharper shots. I believe flod when he said he wet toe toe with him on purpose to give the fans a fun fight. Remember everybody said it was because his legs were gone lol. Next fight he looked brand new vs gurerro


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mayweather is too crisp and tight of a fighter for Duran to beat up like people believe. I favour Duran of course but I don't think he is going to go in and just throw Floyd around and slap him up


Duran would apply some intelligent, skillful yet vicious & destructive pressure that he couldn't ever imagine facing. Floyd would have limited success for the first time in his career. Would be competitive until Duran slows him down late.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> yeah man its a damn shame they couldnt let loose on fighters like ricky hatton and carlos baldomir


Look i am trying not to call you a dumbass like i really want to but do you think they choose to fight each other bc they can make the most money. You ever thought of that?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Cotto forced Floyd to the ropes repeatedly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah he outmuscled sure. And did they win?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Duran would apply some intelligent, skillful yet vicious & destructive pressure that he couldn't ever imagine facing. Floyd would have limited success for the first time in his career. Would be competitive until Duran slows him down late.


Except that Floyd is way too quick for Duran.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Call me what you want. an im tryin not to bring up that corny ass heavy bag vid you uploaded lmao. So you just agreed that it was about money an they werent great fighters thanks.


tliang1000 said:


> Look i am trying not to call you a dumbass like i really want to but do you think they choose to fight each other bc they can make the most money. You ever thought of that?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah he outmuscled sure. And did they win?


No, they weren't Duran-level infighters.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Call me what you want. an im tryin not to bring up that corny ass heavy bag vid you uploaded lmao. So you just agreed that it was about money an they werent great fighters thanks.


U getting desperate or u seeking help?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No, they weren't Duran-level infighters.


Yeah Of course bc Duran is unbeatable.


----------



## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)




----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

You have be William Joppy if you want to beat Duran or 5'4 Dejesus


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Who is desperate? Your the one desperate to prove some bullshit that we will never know. Cause fuckin ray leonards bro said floyd would win your ass is on here acting like thats a reason to set it in stone. Are you serious man?


tliang1000 said:


> U getting desperate or u seeking help?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Who is desperate? Your the one desperate to prove some bullshit that we will never know. Cause fuckin ray leonards bro said floyd would win your ass is on here acting like thats a reason to set it in stone. Are you serious man?


thats funny. while i clearly stated it is my opinion god knows how many time. You got people talking as if it is set in stone and is not me so say that shit to someone else but you won't cause you are ***. thanks. Thanks for being a ***.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Duran would apply some intelligent, skillful yet vicious & destructive pressure that he couldn't ever imagine facing.


and still..... Duran lost to lesser boxers than Mayweather. Point?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> and still..... Duran lost to lesser boxers than Mayweather. Point?


Meanwhile Bhop is damn near 50 and still fighting prime guys but he is not facing the likes of Duran, SRL, and Hearns. Thats why.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah Of course bc Duran is unbeatable.


No, he's just one of the best infighters of all time. Why so butthurt ffs?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Meanwhile Bhop is damn near 50 and still fighting prime guys but he is not facing the likes of Duran, SRL, and Hearns. Thats why.


The outcry of Hopkins fighting a lightweight like Duran would've set the forum ablaze. Hopkins caught shit for the Wright fight even


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No, he's just one of the best infighters of all time. Why so butthurt ffs?


So is Floyd but hey i can give that title to Duran but still... he ain't beating Floyd. so don't be too butthurt.

Oh oops... i forgot to add IMO, don't want people to jump me again calling me the worst poster on this forum.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> The outcry of Hopkins fighting a lightweight like Duran would've set the forum ablaze. Hopkins caught shit for the Wright fight even


But Hagler and Hearns can fight people way smaller. But thats bc they are the fab4, you can't talk anything bad about them, it is consider trolling.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> So is Floyd but hey i can give that title to Duran but still... he ain't beating Floyd. so don't be too butthurt.
> 
> Oh oops... i forgot to add IMO, don't want people to jump me again calling me the worst poster on this forum.


Floyd is not an ATG infighter. He's very good there, but no. He's not among the best in that area by far. Try again.

Believe what you want, I'm just going to correctly assume you have no factual basis for what you believe (as you yourself have repeatedly proven.)


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Floyd is not an ATG infighter. He's very good there, but no. He's not among the best in that area by far. Try again.
> 
> Believe what you want, I'm just going to correctly assume you have no factual basis for what you believe (as you yourself have repeatedly proven.)


I love how you never put IMO. You must be really full of yourself. Like Shit... you know a compulsive liar type.

You come off as a phony. I don't like phonies.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Soooo what's this thread about now?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Also Bogo,

You do realize that having an ATG defense means you can basically fight in any range right? And Floyd can go figure.... how does that work?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Soooo what's this thread about now?


Trying to get our point across while hurling insults of course.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> and still..... Duran lost to lesser boxers than Mayweather. Point?


Not that simple, though, since you know damn well there was a period where Duran was beating high quality opposition in his path. Mayweather's style would totally lend itself to Duran. I could bring up the JLC fight but I don't think it's worth mentioning. the main point is, Floyd goes to the ropes far too often for him to win a decision against Duran which is what he'd have to do. The whole premise of picking Floyd to win is that he'll be able to keep the fight on the outside. That he'll just use his lateral movement, and that's underestimating Duran IMO. I'm unsure as to if he would stop Floyd or not but I lean more towards a decision.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I love how you never put IMO. You must be really full of yourself. Like Shit... you know a compulsive liar type.
> 
> You come off as a phony. I don't like phonies.


IMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMO

Done crying now?

How is holding a generally accepted view make me a compulsive liar :lol: Your insults get more far-fetched by the minute as your stances inevitably unravel.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> IMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMOIMO
> 
> Done crying now?
> 
> How is holding a generally accepted view make me a compulsive liar :lol: Your insults get more far-fetched by the minute as your stances inevitably unravel.


I think the Generally accepted view is that more and more people are placing Floyd as either the best ever or top 3 ATG above Duran.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@bogo

don't cry too hard. Without hesitation when asked is Floyd higher ranked than Hearns, SRL. YES


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> If Sugar Ray Leonard had defeated Hearns in a rematch, won a rubber match against Duran and defeated a better version of Hagler he'd have a chance to claim himself as GOAT
> 
> However he needed a miracle comeback vs Hearns, went 1 and 1 vs Duran, and fought Hagler when he was slipping.
> 
> ...


You have to remember that you're talking about three ATG opponents here for Leonard.

No matter how you rank them, the worst was better than the best Floyd's ever faced.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> You have to remember that you're talking about three ATG opponents here for Leonard.
> 
> No matter how you rank them, the worst was better than the best Floyd's ever faced.


Hey don't cry too hard bro. Listen to the boxing scholar please. Dig out your ear wax and listen to WHY he is. and please don't cry too hard.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I think the Generally accepted view is that more and more people are placing Floyd as either the best ever or top 3 ATG above Duran.


Well you are blatantly wrong. Anybody that places Floyd above Duran in ATG rankings is just a nut-hugging fool. That's it. A vast majority of posters would disagree with you, and there is no collection of experts, analysts, and trainers to back you up either, so please refrain from posting a video of Roger Mayweather talking about how his nephew would beat SRL :rofl. Thank you.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Well you are blatantly wrong. Anybody that places Floyd above Duran in ATG rankings is just a nut-hugging fool. That's it. A vast majority of posters would disagree with you, and there is no collection of experts, analysts, and trainers to back you up either, so please refrain from posting a video of Roger Mayweather talking about how his nephew would beat SRL :rofl. Thank you.


Bhop is a Floyd nut hugger I guess. Don't eat your words too quick. Should've refresh before you spit out another lie.


----------



## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

This thread keeps giving.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> and still..... Duran lost to lesser boxers than Mayweather. Point?


Nearly all of them almost completely meaningless. :yep I've got an entire dossier of excuses provided by Pachilles.



Setanta said:


> You have to remember that you're talking about three ATG opponents here for Leonard.
> 
> No matter how you rank them, the worst was better than the best Floyd's ever faced.


He forgot to mention outclassing undefeated versions of Benitez and Kalule.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

it is hard to take you seriously anymore Bogo. Between the dick sucking you have been giving to people on here. You acting like a Parrot. Saying JMM is smarter, Floyd's ridiculous weaknesses, Duran more skilled talk. I just don't know about you man.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hey everyone Bogo just called bhop a NUT HUGGING FOOL.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bhop is a Floyd nut hugger I guess. Don't eat your words too quick. Should've refresh before you spit out another lie.


BHop is still in the minority, and he said that while he was slyly angling for a catch-weight Floyd fight. And given his bias for the old school African American boxing style, yeah, I take his propping of Floyd so highly with more than a grain of salt.


----------



## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

I never thought anyone would actually start a forum comment with "Hey everyone"


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Once again I am merely trying to point out that the fighter with the best legacy purely in the New Roman Catholic Church of God and the best fighter at the weight class of Ray Charles, but it isn't so bad that you can argue about guys being past their best but Monzon fought them when he was at his own high level of experience in the ring then you can say that Lopez was all about fundamentals of course I remember you saying that the more actual work is done by the end of the fight against the type of opposition he faced everytime is constantly changing. The fact that he was summoning up the good old fashioned way that I can focus on one side of things to consider when you can see that makes you happy with the Internet and younger fans having access to many different types of file attachments from your own home. I think that Jung Koo-Chang, or Jimmy Carter and the Gibbons and Tunney, or even because he was scared of you who are not the intended recipient of this information and resources for the same reason that Robinson is discounted from current list of men who held some claim to the best fighter at this time.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Hey don't cry too hard bro. Listen to the boxing scholar please. Dig out your ear wax and listen to WHY he is. and please don't cry too hard.


Bernard's a graet boxer but faaaaaaaar from a great commentator on the sport.

He predicted RJJ would stop Calzaghe, that Haye would beat Wlad, and numerous other off-base prophesies.

Floyd's career is a work in progress, so its a little early to say where he finishes.

But so far, he hasn't cracked the top twenty, and so far, he's done nothing to indicate that he would be favoured over any of the fab four at any of the weights they fought at.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I think the Generally accepted view is that more and more people are placing Floyd as either the best ever or top 3 ATG above Duran.


:rofl:rofl:rofl

You need to get better acquainted with the meaning of the term "generally accepted."


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> Bernard's a graet boxer but faaaaaaaar from a great commentator on the sport.
> 
> He predicted RJJ would stop Calzaghe, that Haye would beat Wlad, and numerous other off-base prophesies.
> 
> ...


You are not even a great troll buddy.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> BHop is still in the minority, and he said that while he was slyly angling for a catch-weight Floyd fight. And given his bias for the old school African American boxing style, yeah, I take his propping of Floyd so highly with more than a grain of salt.


We can have 1000 BOGOs and I would still take Bhop's words over yours.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You are not even a great troll buddy.


I'm not the topic here, ting-a-ling.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> I'm not the topic here, ting-a-ling.


well get lost then.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> well get lost then.


What'll yo do if I don't, ting-a-ling ?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> What'll yo do if I don't, ting-a-ling ?


i don't give a fuck.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> i don't give a fuck.


Sure you do, ting-ting.

It's too fuckin' obvious.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> Sure you do, ting-ting.
> 
> 1:36 to hear your favorite phrase.
> 
> It's too fuckin' obvious.


here is another one you can take "with a grain salt" with bogo. Don't cry too hard ok?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> We can have 1000 BOGOs and I would still take Bhop's words over yours.


Of course you would, because it suits your agenda. Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. And even if I brought you opinions to the contrary by even greater fighters, I know you wouldn't adopt them.

http://www.boxingscene.com/duran-my-era-mayweather-ordinary--68116


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Of course you would, because it suits your agenda. Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. And even if I brought you opinions to the contrary by even greater fighters, I know you wouldn't adopt them.
> 
> http://www.boxingscene.com/duran-my-era-mayweather-ordinary--68116


quit making excuses. What don't you go into detail of what BHOP's explanation that was absurd about it?


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> here is another one you can take "with a grain salt" with bogo. Don't cry too hard ok?


With all due respect to little Mickey "I didn't see the greats like ...Floyd Patterson..." Garcia, who's a great up-and-coming star and a fine boxer, there are several dudes on here who have forgotten more about the sport than Mickey knows at this point.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Now i posted A 50 year old boxing veteran who talked about SRR, ALI and his legend growing up Hagler and boxed 20+ years of his life and an ATG himself giving that type of props. My opening post showed SRL said that Floyd belong in their class. Told everyone on camera that Most people doesn't believe he can beat Floyd including his own BROTHER> KEY MOST PEOPLE.

Now i posted another video of Robert Garcia a top trainer, and Robert a great champion right now saying Floyd is the greatest. Take all that with a grain of salt. Put salt all over your salty asshole.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Setanta said:


> With all due respect to little Mickey "I didn't see the greats like ...Floyd Patterson..." Garcia, who's a great up-and-coming star and a fine boxer, there are several dudes on here who have forgotten more about the sport than Mickey knows at this point.


yeah i'm sure he would change his mind after he youtube it. And Robert? As a trainer i bet he never learn from the old timers.

I love these excuses. You guys never run out of them huh.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Setanta said:


> With all due respect to little Mickey "I didn't see the greats like ...Floyd Patterson..." Garcia, who's a great up-and-coming star and a fine boxer, there are several dudes on here who have forgotten more about the sport than Mickey knows at this point.


Mickey who?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Mickey who?


Duran should've retired when he lost his passion for boxing. After the first Leonard fight.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> yeah i'm sure he would change his mind after he youtube it. And Robert? As a trainer i bet he never learn from the old timers.
> 
> I love these excuses. You guys never run out of them huh.


Ting Ting, you don't seem to get it.

There is no right answer here. It's a matter of opinion as to which of SRL or Floyd was greater.

You have yours. BHop has his. Big and little Garcia have theirs. And I have mine.

How they would have fared in a hypothetical match-up is just that. Hypothetical.

How they rank in terms of what they actually did do in their careers is assessed by the audience and those who make lists, and some sort of consensus emerges and lists get put out there.

You will be hard pressed to find much consensus for putting Floyd in the top twenty at this point.

Or Leonard and Duran outside of twenty.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Duran should've retired when he lost his passion for boxing. After the first Leonard fight.


Interestingly, that would have diminished Leonard's legacy somewhat.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

When you watch Leonard wear down Benitez I don't see how anyone could feasibly favour Floyd here.

Leonard is faster, stronger, and technically better. The edge Floyd has is defence. That might see him win some rounds but not the fight.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> quit making excuses. What don't you go into detail of what BHOP's explanation that was absurd about it?


Making excuses about what? What am I making excuses about?

Hopkins's position is absurd because Floyd's best win is a faded DLH (or, Diego Corrales). There are PLENTY of more accomplished boxers. Let's take some universal top boxers and try to see how Floyd looks up there with them.

1. Ray Robinson-Kid Gavilan, Carmen Basilio, Sammy Angott (who beat Pep), Jame LaMotta, and Henry Armstrong
2. Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston

And here-not later, but here-Hopkins wants to put Floyd.

Floyd Mayweather Jr.-Oscar De La Hoya, Jose Luis Castillo, Diego Corrales, Miguel Cotto, Shane Mosley/Ricky Hatton

That list of opponents is apparently supposed to trump:

Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, Joe Louis, Pernell Whitaker, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, Roy Jones....

Sugar Ray Leonard-Tommy Hearns, Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler, Wilfred Benitez, Donny Lalonde
Roberto Duran-Sugar Ray Leonard, Esteban De Jesus, Ken Buchanan, Davey Moore, Carlos Palomino

I mean, fuck, if you don't see something wrong with that, the joke's on you. We could all throw resume out the window (you know, actual accomplishments) and vote on who we think is "just better", but all that would end up looking like is arbitrary propulsion of favorites to the top, as you're visibly doing yourself by trying to justify Floyd being in the top 3 of all time.That shit is laughable.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Making excuses about what? What am I making excuses about?
> 
> Hopkins's position is absurd because Floyd's best win is a faded DLH (or, Diego Corrales). There are PLENTY of more accomplished boxers. Let's take some universal top boxers and try to see how Floyd looks up there with them.
> 
> ...


Boom goes the dynamite. :deal


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Making excuses about what? What am I making excuses about?
> 
> Hopkins's position is absurd because Floyd's best win is a faded DLH (or, Diego Corrales). There are PLENTY of more accomplished boxers. Let's take some universal top boxers and try to see how Floyd looks up there with them.
> 
> ...


Yeah and the fab 4 didn't fight faded anything right? Fighting undersize dudes, rematching each other when they are fade. SRL waited for Duran to have weight problem. Choosing to fight Hagler when he was slipping. again, u exposed yourself as butthurt


----------



## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Making excuses about what? What am I making excuses about?
> 
> Hopkins's position is absurd because Floyd's best win is a faded DLH (or, Diego Corrales). There are PLENTY of more accomplished boxers. Let's take some universal top boxers and try to see how Floyd looks up there with them.
> 
> ...


But they don't look good and as sharp as Floyd. Thus, Floyd ATGest. Simple logic.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

It is easy to find excuses on why a fighter lost. Do people know this if am i the only one....?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Setanta said:


> Interestingly, that would have diminished Leonard's legacy somewhat.


They would've just kept raising the price until he agreed to the rematch.

72-1 (56) with a legacy as the holder of arguably the greatest single (welterweight) win ever, arguably the greatest lightweight ever, and your lone loss avenged twice by TKO? It doesn't get sweeter than that. Moore and Barkley were great underdog wins and highly, highly memorable but they were far from ATGs, and look at all the blunders and warts put on from entering the ring as a very undedicated, badly diminished fighter (compared to his best). Yeah, I'd take 72-1 and retire in a second.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah and the fab 4 didn't fight faded anything right?


Who said that? Who said the Fab 4 is flawless? They're not flawless. Just definitely more accomplished than Floyd Mayweather. Stay on topic and don't try to deflect.



tliang1000 said:


> Fighting undersize dudes,


Er, who?

Oh, you mean that time Leonard failed to make a catchweight of 144 against an old lightweight?

Oh wait.



tliang1000 said:


> rematching each other when they are fade.


Let's just blatantly ignore the fact they mostly fought each other in their primes, sure, why not :lol:atsch



tliang1000 said:


> SRL waited for Duran to have weight problem.


Sure, he still beat him. And beat an undefeated Thomas Hearns, and outpointed an ATG Middleweight in Hagler, and stopped undefeated Hall of Fame defensive great in Benitez (remember him, the guy you tried to shit on with boxrec and embarrassed yourself? The one that beat Duran and Cervantes and went the distance with Hearns?)



tliang1000 said:


> Choosing to fight Hagler when he was slipping.


After he himself had repaired a detached retina and hadn't been in a ring for 3 years fighting at Hagler's natural 160lb weight class as a heavy underdog. But yeah, let's talk shit about Hagler slipping, De La Hoya and Mosley were blossoming spring chickens at the peak of their primes.



tliang1000 said:


> again, u exposed yourself as butthurt


Once again, you provide me with an opportunity to prove that I know the facts and history of boxing which you only frantically scramble to reach for when poor lil' Floyd is getting put down by the big bad Fab 4 and the host of other fighters who have the bigger wins on their resume. Wah, but Hopkins said he's top 3, wah :cry


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah and the fab 4 didn't fight faded anything right? Fighting undersize dudes, rematching each other when they are fade. SRL waited for Duran to have weight problem. Choosing to fight Hagler when he was slipping. again, u exposed yourself as butthurt


he rematched Duran immediately. If Duran don't train hard that's his problem.

he came out of retirement to fight Hagler who had just stopped the number 1 contender.

honestly you might as well say "Floyd waited for Corrales to get charged with assault and also waited for de la Hoya to get old".

you don't really consider Floyd top 3, behave.


----------



## The Wanderer (Jul 17, 2013)

> Sugar Ray Leonard is okay with people thinking Floyd is better than him


That's very modest and sporting of Leonard. Doesn't make the people who say it any less wrong.

And they're monumentally wrong.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> he rematched Duran immediately. If Duran don't train hard that's his problem.
> 
> he came out of retirement to fight Hagler who had just stopped the number 1 contender.
> 
> ...


You do realize that i said it is easy to find excuses right?

Personally i don't give a shit when a fighter loses. You sign the contract you fight and take both outcomes like a man. JMM moved up and lost but what if he wins does he not expect full credit SO WORK BOTH WAYS.

@bogo keep your butthurt in check just bc you are a wannabe boxing dweeb. I have already said what did the fab 4 did but you chose to ignore it. SRL openly said that he purposely chose when to rematch. Hagler did choose to beat Duran and received credit for it but being that you are contradicting little bitch STILL TRYING TO MAKE IT A FLOYD THING.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

damn bogo goin hard


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> You do realize that i said it is easy to find excuses right?
> 
> Personally i don't give a shit when a fighter loses. You sign the contract you fight and take both outcomes like a man. JMM moved up and lost but what if he wins does he not expect full credit SO WORK BOTH WAYS.
> 
> @bogo keep your butthurt in check just bc you are a wannabe boxing dweeb. I have already said what did the fab 4 do but you chose to ignore it. SRL openly said that he purposely chose when to rematch. Hagler did choose to beat Duran and received credit for it but being that you are contradicting little bitch STILL TRYING TO MAKE IT A FLOYD THING.


so you accept Leonard is better than Floyd and has beaten better fighters?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You do realize that i said it is easy to find excuses right?
> 
> Personally i don't give a shit when a fighter loses. You sign the contract you fight and take both outcomes like a man. JMM moved up and lost but what if he wins does he never expect full credit SO WORK BOTH WAYS.
> 
> @bogo keep your butthurt in check just bc you are a wannabe boxing dweeb. I have already said what did the fab 4 do but you chose to ignore it. SRL openly said that he purposely chose when to rematch. Hagler did choose to beat Duran and received credit for it but being that you are contradicting little bitch STILL TRYING TO MAKE IT A FLOYD THING.


Bitch, you have no credibility. You have no arguments. Every time I shut your shit down, you come up with some new insult to try and dance around and avoid and deny the fact that you argue Floyd should be much higher than the consensus has him with 0 logical basis. You're a clown who's embarrassed himself once again, I provided the facts you never knew and will likely never know because you're more interested in jacking off to Floyd fights and clicking on boxrec than admiring and respecting and learning about the many greats in boxing history. Sit down boy. Class dismissed.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Duran should've retired when he lost his passion for boxing. After the first Leonard fight.


Hm ??


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> so you accept Leonard is better than Floyd and has beaten better fighters?


They all beaten their rivals and fellow champions. Out of respect I would say yes but in reality that shit is hard to prove.

You have to understand why people consider them good to begin with.

1) They are champions and they beat a lot of people.
2) When you are good there is a lot of hype. 
3) When you known you have fans. Just listen to how fierce people talk about who is better between the rock and stone cold, that a fist fight might break out.

I understand all of this, i dont know why you guys don't.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Making excuses about what? What am I making excuses about?
> 
> Hopkins's position is absurd because Floyd's best win is a faded DLH (or, Diego Corrales). There are PLENTY of more accomplished boxers. Let's take some universal top boxers and try to see how Floyd looks up there with them.
> 
> ...





Bogotazo said:


> Who said that? Who said the Fab 4 is flawless? They're not flawless. Just definitely more accomplished than Floyd Mayweather. Stay on topic and don't try to deflect.
> 
> Er, who?
> 
> ...


Jesus :rofl


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Tilangs gettin knocked around like a hunts point street walker in this thread.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Bitch, you have no credibility. You have no arguments. Every time I shut your shit down, you come up with some new insult to try and dance around and avoid and deny the fact that you argue Floyd should be much higher than the consensus has him with 0 logical basis. You're a clown who's embarrassed himself once again, I provided the facts you never knew and will likely never know because you're more interested in jacking off to Floyd fights and clicking on boxrec than admiring and respecting and learning about the many greats in boxing history. Sit down boy. Class dismissed.


Oh you doing a good job shutting me up while pitching a big out pussy farting fit too. You are just too full of shit bogo.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Prime Mosley KO2
@turbotime ??? :blood :blood :scaredas:


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> They all beaten their rivals and fellow champions. Out of respect I would say yes but in reality that shit is hard to prove.
> 
> You have to understand why people consider them good to begin with.
> 
> ...


so you accept Leonard is better than Floyd and has beaten better fighters?


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

32 pages of shit talking


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I like how much ego this forum have. Saying they KNOW who has fought better who when they have no common opponents, different eras and not even in the same weight class. Who needs prove when you can just ask these know it alls in this forum.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Hind sight became a useful tool for detractors to describe Oscar that fought Floyd.

I was around forums for that fight, and forums were on FIRE at the time. EVERYBODY loved that fight, opinions were truly split about 50/50 for the biggest part...but I don't recall not one single mofo picking Floyd (or even the Oscar guys) saying anything at all at the time about Oscar being past it or used up. NONE.



fuck it


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Oh you doing a good job shutting me up while pitching a big out pussy farting fit too. You are just too full of shit bogo.


That's right. Submit to the shameful pit of defeat you've talked yourself into, you ignorant twat.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> Hind sight became a useful tool for detractors to describe Oscar that fought Floyd.
> 
> I was around forums for that fight, and forums were on FIRE at the time. EVERYBODY loved that fight, opinions were truly split about 50/50 for the biggest part...but I don't recall not one single mofo picking Floyd (or even the Oscar guys) saying anything at all at the time about Oscar being past it or used up. NONE.
> 
> fuck it


:lol: Floyd was the favourite for the Oscar fight. If you don't remember anyone picking Floyd it's purely because you don't remember it.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> so you accept Leonard is better than Floyd and has beaten better fighters?


I accepted the fact that the bible is full of shit a long time ago.
I accepted the fact that people are too proud to admit that might be possibly wrong.
I accepted the fact that hype and shit that has been said over and over and people will start to believe.
I accepted the fact that people on this forum doesn't want to think shit logically.

I have already gave my take on who has beaten better fighter talk already.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> I like how much ego this forum have. Saying they KNOW who has fought better who when they have no common opponents, different eras and not even in the same weight class. Who needs prove when you can just ask these know it alls in this forum.


who do you think Floyd beat that can compare with: Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Kalule and Hagler.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> :lol: Floyd was the favourite for the Oscar fight. If you don't remember anyone picking Floyd it's purely because you don't remember it.


What part of 50/50 means I don't remember anybody picking Floyd?? :blood

What I said was nobody was calling Oscar past it/faded etc BEFORE the fight. (from either side)


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> I accepted the fact that the bible is full of shit a long time ago.
> I accepted the fact that people are too proud to admit that might be possibly wrong.
> I accepted the fact that hype and shit that has been said over and over and people will start to believe.
> I accepted the fact that people on this forum doesn't want to think shit logically.
> ...


if you accept Leonard is better and has beaten better fighters, what are you arguing about then?


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> What part of 50/50 means I don't remember anybody picking Floyd?? :blood
> 
> What I said was nobody was calling Oscar past it/faded etc BEFORE the fight.


"I don't recall not one single mofo picking Floyd"

ouch.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> Hind sight became a useful tool for detractors to describe Oscar that fought Floyd.
> 
> I was around forums for that fight, and forums were on FIRE at the time. EVERYBODY loved that fight, opinions were truly split about 50/50 for the biggest part...but I don't recall not one single mofo picking Floyd (or even the Oscar guys) saying anything at all at the time about Oscar being past it or used up. NONE.
> 
> fuck it


De La Hoya is not a _bad_ win at all, there's a reason I consider it Floyd's best. Floyd was moving up to a weight class he'd never been before, against a heavy-handed, experienced, skilled ATG with a beast of a resume. But it's clear he wasn't the same as he'd been in his prime. People were talking about whether or not De La Hoya still had it far before the Mayorga fight. His last good win was a robbed decision against Mosley in the rematch *4 years earlier*. Then there's officially outpointing Sturm (in a fight I had him winning but most didn't), Hopkins (a spirited showing but a loss), and then a knockout of Mayorga, who while solid, was never elite. His performances after that were Forbes, and Pacquiao, then retirement. I fail to see how Oscar could be considered close to his prime. His best wins were in 1999 and 2002, not 2005 or 2006 before fighting Floyd in 2007.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> "I don't recall not one single mofo picking Floyd"
> 
> ouch.


:lol:!!

Jeezus, never mind

You seriously don't see the rest of the sentence?? :lol: gah damn man


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That's right. Submit to the shameful pit of defeat you've talked yourself into, you ignorant twat.


deep down inside you know i am beating your bitchass to the ground is why you are so angry. 
I've taken on the whole forum on for years while you reach for help pm ur bfs to try to gang up on me and to be your little cheerleaders and you still don't know what the fuck is going on.​


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> :lol:!!
> 
> Jeezus, never mind
> 
> You seriously don't see the rest of the sentence?? :lol: gah damn man


I like to cherry pick bits of sentences to back up my point.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> if you accept Leonard is better and has beaten better fighters, what are you arguing about then?


Better fighter? No. Floyd is the better fighter. I can't help that SRL got the rock and stone cold on paper MEANWHILE FLOYD IS THE ROCK AND STONE COLD COMBINE. Think about that.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> deep down inside you know i am beating your bitchass to the ground is why you are so angry.
> I've taken on the whole forum on for years while you reach for help pm ur bfs to try to gang up on me and to be your little cheerleaders and you still don't know what the fuck is going on.​


:rofl

I just spent post after post spitting facts about an era you're ignorant about, which left you only capable of replying with vague insults that had nothing to do with the debate at hand, grasping at straws to try and claim victory while other posters look on and laugh at you. Just stay down tliang, for your own sake.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> De La Hoya is not a _bad_ win at all, there's a reason I consider it Floyd's best. Floyd was moving up to a weight class he'd never been before, against a heavy-handed, experienced, skilled ATG with a beast of a resume. But it's clear he wasn't the same as he'd been in his prime. People were talking about whether or not De La Hoya still had it far before the Mayorga fight. His last good win was a robbed decision against Mosley in the rematch *4 years earlier*. Then there's officially outpointing Sturm (in a fight I had him winning but most didn't), Hopkins (a spirited showing but a loss), and then a knockout of Mayorga, who while solid, was never elite. His performances after that were Forbes, and Pacquiao, then retirement. I fail to see how Oscar could be considered close to his prime. His best wins were in 1999 and 2002, not 2005 or 2006 before fighting Floyd in 2007.


Good post. Very fair qualifications too.

It's true, Oscar was done afterwards. It's just a whole bunch of people act like it was a garbage win, but like you said: "it's not a bad win at all" :good


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Better fighter? No. Floyd is the better fighter. I can't help that SRL got the rock and stone cold on paper MEANWHILE FLOYD IS THE ROCK AND STONE COLD COMBINE. Think about that.


I dont watch grown men in trunks pretending to wrestle.

What makes you think Floyd is better than Leonard. Upon what do you base that ludicrous opinion?


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> I like to cherry pick bits of sentences to back up my point.


I guess. :lol:

The Oscar vs Floyd days on ESB was something to see though man.

Good times


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> Good post. Very fair qualifications too.
> 
> It's true, Oscar was done afterwards. It's just a whole bunch of people act like it was a garbage win, but like you said: "it's not a bad win at all" :good


Oh no way can it be called garbage, it's the best win on the resume of a top 40 ATG! A historically significant win and a damn good one. It's only proper Floyd would be given the golden touch as PPV King in that fight.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :rofl
> 
> I just spent post after post spitting facts about an era you're ignorant about, which left you only capable of replying with vague insults that had nothing to do with the debate at hand, grasping at straws to try and claim victory while other posters look on and laugh at you. Just stay down tliang, for your own sake.


You spit out a bunch of facts or a bunch of excuses? and shit you can't prove? and opinions that you think are facts?


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> I guess. :lol:
> 
> The Oscar vs Floyd days on ESB was something to see though man.
> 
> Good times


I think it's a great victory anyways.

I joined esb in the fall out of the Marquez - Floyd fight. Lurked before then commenting on articles and shit.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You spit out a bunch of facts or a bunch of excuses? and shit you can't prove? and opinions that you think are facts?


I used a set of facts to prove arguments which you cannot begin to dispute without failing dramatically and making a show out of your idiocy.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> I dont watch grown men in trunks pretending to wrestle.
> 
> What makes you think Floyd is better than Leonard. Upon what do you base that ludicrous opinion?


I guess you didn't understand the metaphor.

Why do i think Floyd is better? Didn't i went over that at least 5 times on this thread?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I used a set of facts to prove arguments which you cannot begin to dispute without failing dramatically and making a show out of your idiocy.


Yeah you use a gif where a fighter makes a mistake and you create a whole story behind it. Floyd leans is a mistake. Too heavy on the front foot see gifs... gifs.... i


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> I guess you didn't understand the metaphor.
> 
> Why do i think Floyd is better? Didn't i went over that at least 5 times on this thread?


I don't watch wrestling therefore do not understand your metaphor.

Go over it again, nice and slow, so I can laugh and respond with an emoticon demonstrating that laughter.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> I think it's a great victory anyways.
> 
> I joined esb in the fall out of the Marquez - Floyd fight. Lurked before then commenting on articles and shit.


I hear ya'

Back them days the big hitters for Oscar was Beware Of Dawg, Bazooka, of course Lance lol vs Big Time 9, PimpC, etc..

But just so we're clear, I recall a SHIT TON of dudes picking Floyd, myself included 

Bur so did Oscar's side.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yeah and I never go into detail on why on anything. Thats me bogo. compulsive liar?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Prime Mosley KO2
> 
> @turbotime ??? :blood :blood :scaredas:


:err


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> I hear ya'
> 
> Back them days the big hitters for Oscar was Beware Of Dawg, Bazooka, of course Lance lol vs Big Time 9, PimpC, etc..
> 
> ...


I joined esb thinking Floyd was the goat. Didn't know anyone else from history tbh.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah you use a gif where a fighter makes a mistake and you create a whole story behind it. Floyd leans is a mistake. Too heavy on the front foot see gifs... gifs.... i


That's not what we're talking about at all though. I haven't mentioned any sort of technical mistake Floyd makes. Once again, you deflect, trying to draw attention to the fact that you can't defend your ludicrous arguments in any respectable fashion. Why do you love making yourself look like an ignorant buffoon? Why?


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> I joined esb thinking Floyd was the goat. Didn't know anyone else from history tbh.


I was scurred the whole time Oscar was REALLY gonna hurt Floyd ops

Since we're being brutally honest here...:lol:


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> I don't watch wrestling therefore do not understand your metaphor.
> 
> Go over it again, nice and slow, so I can laugh and respond with an emoticon demonstrating that laughter.


sigh...
The rock and Stone cold were very popular fighters. People know their name just as people know who the fab are. More popular boxing era when people in this country actual enjoyed this sport. SRL have the names that people hold dear to their heart on paper.. Floyd doesn't. get it?
You turn on the tv in the 90s and there is wrestling and you turn on the tv today and there is wrestling. No different.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That's not what we're talking about at all though. I haven't mentioned any sort of technical mistake Floyd makes. Once again, you deflect, trying to draw attention to the fact that you can't defend your ludicrous arguments in any respectable fashion. Why do you love making yourself look like an ignorant buffoon? Why?


wasn't it you who constantly bring up my video everytime i beat your ass in a debate? It is either you or that ****** BOGO.

I stop reading your long winded bs a long time ago once you struck me as a bullshit btw the way.

I glimpse of what the f you are bitching about and respond.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> sigh...
> The rock and Stone cold were very popular fighters. People know their name just as people know who the fab are. More popular boxing era when people in this country actual enjoyed this sport. SRL have the names that people hold dear to their heart on paper.. Floyd doesn't. get it?
> You turn on the tv in the 90s and there is wrestling and you turn on the tv today and there is wrestling. No different.


why would hold those names dear to my heart? I'm a white English guy, I have no afinity with anyone Leonard beat.

On what do you base your embarassing opinion that Floyd is better than Leonard.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> wasn't it you who constantly bring up my video everytime i beat your ass in a debate? It is either you or that ****** BOGO.


We are debating why it is a ludicrous position to have Floyd as the 3rd best boxer in history. Stop distracting so that you can escape the shame of losing worse than a 3 legged mouse in a dogfight. So far, you have no arguments, only half-assed attempts at disparaging the Fab 4 (who are considered by general consensus to be more accomplished) and personal insults towards me that do NOTHING to prove your point, but instead make you look like a sad know-nothing.

Beat my ass in debate :rofl Half the forum chipped in to try to talk you out of insisting on your retarded ass point, and when I showed pictures of the very thing you said didn't exist, you were all "lol why do you use pictures lol bogo ur biased lol im winning"


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Just like today bogo when we were talking about Duran manhandling Floyd and i link a clip on youtube showing that he wasn't that fast, was sloppy, fouling and getting outhustled by 5'4 dejesus .l You gif me shit from cotto and shane hitting Floyd saying they were "outmuscling Floyd" and the funny shit is they didn't even win. but of course you thought that you won that argument being so full of shit you are.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> why would hold those names dear to my heart? I'm a white English guy, I have no afinity with anyone Leonard beat.
> 
> On what do you base your embarassing opinion that Floyd is better than Leonard.


I gave my reasons on the first page already. why you want me to type the same shit for the 6th time?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Just like today bogo when we were talking about Duran manhandling Floyd and i link a clip on youtube showing that he wasn't that fast, was sloppy and fouling like mad. You gif me shit from cotto and shane hitting Floyd saying they were "outmuscling Floyd" and the funny shit is they didn't even win. but of course you thought that you won that argument being so full of shit you are.


What clip? You didn't quote me when you posted it.

You said "I've never seen Floyd get outmuscled", so I posted gifs which showed Floyd being outmuscled. Using facts to correct your ignorant assumptions. Then you tried to make it seem as if that was the basis of my reasoning for picking Duran over Floyd, when it's not. Duran is the superior inside fighter, and would close the distance as lesser fighters have done to Floyd. You have nothing to refute that.

And STILL, you distract from the fact that you cannot defend your ludicrous position that Floyd deserves to be considered the 3rd best boxer ever. You made a bold claim, and did fuck all to support it, and now you look fucking dumb. Get over it. Move on.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> What clip? You didn't quote me when you posted it.
> 
> You said "I've never seen Floyd get outmuscled", so I posted gifs which showed Floyd being outmuscled. Using facts to correct your ignorant assumptions. Then you tried to make it seem as if that was the basis of my reasoning for picking Duran over Floyd, when it's not. Duran is the superior inside fighter, and would close the distance as lesser fighters have done to Floyd. You have nothing to refute that.
> 
> And STILL, you distract from the fact that you cannot defend your ludicrous position that Floyd deserves to be considered the 3rd best boxer ever. You made a bold claim, and did fuck all to support it, and now you look fucking dumb. Get over it. Move on.


Yeah getting clocked = outmuscled. and the funny shit of it all is that Cotto lost and shane got his ass beat bad that night.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Floyd would retire Leonard.

Geddit?......Amiright?......This thing on?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah getting clocked = outmuscled. and the funny shit of it all is that Cotto lost and shane got his ass beat bad that night.


You dumb fuck, watch the moments after Mosley's punch lands, and he makes Floyd spin around by flinging his body weight.

Nobody said outmuscling Floyd alone is going to beat him. I was simply correcting your false assertion that nobody has. Cotto lost because he doesn't have Duran's inside fighting skill. We already went through this but go ahead, keep trying to save face and act like you didn't just make yourself look like a complete idiot by arguing Floyd is #3 of all time.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You dumb fuck, watch the moments after Mosley's punch lands, and he makes Floyd spin around by flinging his body weight.
> 
> Nobody said outmuscling Floyd alone is going to beat him. I was simply correcting your false assertion that nobody has. Cotto lost because he doesn't have Duran's inside fighting skill. We already went through this but go ahead, keep trying to save face and act like you didn't just make yourself look like a complete idiot by arguing Floyd is #3 of all time.


You do realize that you have said that after *MOSLEY's punch lands* right you stupid ***. Again... a little snip of gif of shane hitting Floyd and pushed him equals outmuscled right, especially after he got hit. *this ain't filling the blank fool.
*

You want to see someone get outmuscle why don't you watch Duran getting outsmart by 5'4 midget dejesus. and that everytime they clinch hardly anyone moved an inch. Suck on that you dumbass.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@ bogo,

at least my example have a ton of clinch in it but being how smart your dumbself is you made a gif where they are hitting each other LMAO. :roflatsch:-huh:yep:lol::sad5


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You do realize that you have said that after *MOSLEY's punch lands* right you stupid ***. Again... a little snip of gif of shane hitting Floyd and pushed him equals outmuscled right, especially after he got hit. *this ain't filling the blank fool.
> *
> 
> You want to see someone get outmuscle why don't you watch Duran getting outsmart by 5'4 midget dejesus. and that everytime they clinch hardly anyone moved an inch. Suck on that you dumbass.


Mosley's punch is irrelevant to the fact that when Floyd tries to hold, Mosley spins Floyd around like a rag doll. The Cotto fight is a more consistent example. Cotto had a strength advantage against Floyd. Therefore, you're whole "I never saw Floyd get outmuscled" was garbage. Get it?

De Jesus, who Duran fought at lightweight and beat twice dominantly after that? How about you watch Duran pushing back Leonard at welterweight, who had a bigger frame than De Jesus AND Floyd? :lol:

Poor tliang actually thought he had a victory for a second. "SUCK ON THAT I WON HA" :rofl


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

here I know how you like to put up a GIF and make up stories behind it.

Here is the fight again. No story needed.
They clinch a good 100 times and i hardly, IF EVEN saw the ferocious duran outmuscle and beasting the midget.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Mosley's punch is irrelevant to the fact that when Floyd tries to hold, Mosley spins Floyd around like a rag doll. The Cotto fight is a more consistent example. Cotto had a strength advantage against Floyd. Therefore, you're whole "I never saw Floyd get outmuscled" was garbage. Get it?
> 
> De Jesus, who Duran fought at lightweight and beat twice dominantly after that? How about you watch Duran pushing back Leonard at welterweight, who had a bigger frame than De Jesus AND Floyd? :lol:
> 
> Poor tliang actually thought he had a victory for a second. "SUCK ON THAT I WON HA" :rofl


Bitch you are too dumb. Dejesus won but he wasn't the same fighter no more on the rematches. Ya see how easy it is to make excuses. and no you lost you brought in a piss poor example. A snipe of gif while I presented a whole match. And both cotto and Shane lost you stupid ******. So keep telling yourself that you won.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)




----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bitch you are too dumb. Dejesus won but he wasn't the same fighter no more on the rematches.


Really? Says who? What's the evidence for that? Got any? Nah, you're just deflecting.



tliang1000 said:


> Ya see how easy it is to make excuses. and no you lost you brought in a piss poor example. A snipe of gif while I presented a whole match. And both cotto and Shane lost you stupid ******. So keep telling yourself that you won.


Learn to read dipshit. Am I arguing Shane or Cotto won? NO. That is irrelevant. Did Cotto have a strength advantage against Floyd and outmuscle him at times (contrary to what you said)? YES. Now run along you hoe. I'm tired of slapping you around.



tliang1000 said:


> here I know how you like to put up a GIF and make up stories behind it.
> 
> Here is the fight again. No story needed.
> They clinch a good 100 times and i hardly, IF EVEN saw the ferocious duran outmuscle and beasting the midget.


How about you post a clip of Duran pushing back the bigger, stronger Leonard against the ropes later in his career at welterweight? Oh that right, it wouldn't suit your stupid argument.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Interesting Shit:
Leonard decided to challenge Hagler after watching his fight with John Mugabi on March 10, 1986. "I was at ringside, sitting with Michael J. Fox," Leonard said, "We were sitting there having a few beers, and I'm watching John "The Beast" Mugabi outbox Hagler. Of all people, John "The Beast" Mugabi. Now, I had had a few beers, and I said, 'Michael, Michael, I can beat Hagler.' And he said, 'Ray, do you want another beer?' I said, 'Yes I do, but I can beat Hagler.'"


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Really? Says who? What's the evidence for that? Got any? Nah, you're just deflecting.
> 
> Learn to read dipshit. Am I arguing Shane or Cotto won? NO. That is irrelevant. Did Cotto have a strength advantage against Floyd and outmuscle him at times (contrary to what you said)? YES. Now run along you hoe. I'm tired of slapping you around.
> 
> How about you post a clip of Duran pushing back the bigger, stronger Leonard against the ropes later in his career at welterweight? Oh that right, it wouldn't suit your stupid argument.


Ah the famous the run along talk bc you know you lost talk. Thanks for admitting defeat and that you are retarded with your fill in the blank gifs.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

turbotime said:


>




Very appropriate gif Turbo.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

OoOooh more Interesting Shit:

The split decision in favor of Leonard was very controversial. Judge Jose Guerra's score of 118-110 in favor of Leonard was heavily criticized. "JoJo Guerra should be put in jail," Pat Petronelli, Hagler's co-trainer, said. Harry Gibbs of England was originally scheduled to be a judge, but the Hagler camp objected. They said they believed English judges favor boxers and requested a Mexican judge, so the commission replaced Gibbs with Guerra. Watching the fight at home two weeks later, Gibbs scored the fight for Hagler. 


Had he scored that way on the night.....




()


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> Interesting Shit:
> Leonard decided to challenge Hagler after watching his fight with John Mugabi on March 10, 1986. "I was at ringside, sitting with Michael J. Fox," Leonard said, "We were sitting there having a few beers, and I'm watching John "The Beast" Mugabi outbox Hagler. Of all people, John "The Beast" Mugabi. Now, I had had a few beers, and I said, 'Michael, Michael, I can beat Hagler.' And he said, 'Ray, do you want another beer?' I said, 'Yes I do, but I can beat Hagler.'"


People don't want to hear that here. Only Floyd seek weaknesses and catch people slipping but never SRL. but but but detached retina. queue the excuses!!!


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Ah the famous the run along talk bc you know you lost talk. Thanks for admitting defeat and that you are retarded with your fill in the blank gifs.


Yeah sure, I lost despite you not having an argument, just randomly saying shit to deflect from the fact you have 0 evidence to support your nuthugging position that Floyd is #3 ATG :rofl


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah sure, I lost despite you not having an argument, just randomly saying shit to deflect from the fact you have 0 evidence to support your nuthugging position that Floyd is #3 ATG :rofl


So now you are resorting to lying again I see. Shame on you!


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## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

More cool shit:

After the decision was announced, Leonard told the crowd that he would see them "six months and fifteen pounds later," implying that he would next fight WBC Light Heavyweight Champion Thomas Hearns. Leonard later said he "was only joking." 

and ....

Bob Arum and rival promoter Don King, who was just a spectator at the bout, got into a shoving match when Arum prevented King from entering the ring after the fight. They were separated by security. "That man had nothing to do with this fight," Arum said. "There was no way he belonged in the ring." 
:lol: :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah sure, I lost despite you not having an argument, just randomly saying shit to deflect from the fact you have 0 evidence to support your nuthugging position that Floyd is #3 ATG :rofl





pipe wrenched said:


> More cool shit:
> 
> After the decision was announced, Leonard told the crowd that he would see them "six months and fifteen pounds later," implying that he would next fight WBC Light Heavyweight Champion Thomas Hearns. Leonard later said he "was only joking."
> 
> ...


More cool shit:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...boxing-council-middleweight-sugar-ray-leonard

_Hagler Vs. Leonard Vs. Reality

Latest Fight Of The Century' Taking Shape As The Fraud Of The Century

November 06, 1986 | By George Puscas

With obvious pride, promoter Bob Arum stepped before microphones and cameras Monday in New York to announce that arrangements had been completed for the ``fight of the century.``

Arum, a lawyer and former Internal Revenue Service agent, is smarter than that.

*What he has in hand is the boxing hoax of the ages: Marvin Hagler vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, April 6 in Las Vegas.

It's the best fighter in the world (Hagler) against a guy who was knocked down in his last fight three years ago and retired because he couldn't, or wouldn't take it anymore.*

Hagler will be paid $12 million for 12 rounds, or less, and Leonard will get $11 million. All of it is guaranteed money with promise of more.

No one, no event, in the long history of sports ever has produced such income. Hagler-Leonard, Arum says, could gross an unworldly $100 million.

*Such is the appeal of a major fight. But it`s strange, because this doesn`t figure to be much of a fight at all.

We have yet to find a knowledgeable boxing man who gives Leonard, the former welterweight champion, any sort of chance against Hagler, the destructive middleweight champion.*

Early odds in Las Vegas list Hagler as a 4-to-1 favorite, but this is merely an invitation to bettors. The odds will swing heavily upward in Hagler`s favor.

*The problem with this fight is that it should have been scheduled five days earlier, on April Fools` Day.

For if ever there were an awful joke in championship sports, it`s Leonard vs. Hagler for the World Boxing Council middleweight title.*

Two of the sport`s governing bodies have refused to sanction the fight. Normally more accommodating, the World Boxing Association insisted that the fight must be scheduled for 15 rounds, its standard. The International Boxing Federation nixed it because its rules bar fighters who have had eye retina damage (Leonard).

Still, there was no stopping Arum--or, in fact, Leonard. Arum might be the moneybags of this operation, but the original promoter, the man with the idea, was Leonard.

Last March, shortly after Hagler had knocked out John Mugabi in Las Vegas, Leonard announced he would like to return to boxing for just one more fight--against Hagler._


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The 15 rounds bit is sort of interesting considering both Mugabi and Hearns were scheduled for 12.


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## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

:good


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> People don't want to hear that here. Only Floyd seek weaknesses and catch people slipping but never SRL. but but but detached retina. queue the excuses!!!


The IBF didn't even want the damn sanctioning fee for the highest grossing fight in history because of that detached retina, and they scale their rates based on the purses.

Like I said though I don't really care about Hagler even though the revisionist history is wildly one sided against Leonard.


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## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The IBF didn't even want the damn sanctioning fee for the highest grossing fight in history because of that detached retina, and they scale their rates based on the purses.
> 
> Like I said though I don't really care about Hagler even though the revisionist history is wildly one sided against Leonard.


I never understood the criticism over Leonard picking on a past-it Hagler. Not like Leonard was lighting the boxing world on fire either at the time. Thanks for posting those excerpts.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah i don't know about that. Floyd is just overall better and SRL doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd and imo is outgunned.


is this the great explanation you were on about :lol:


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> is this the great explanation you were on about :lol:


Yeah sure.
You could just look at my post history would speed it up faster. i don't know the exact pages. I've got into at least 5-6 times.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

JMP said:


> I never understood the criticism over Leonard picking on a past-it Hagler. Not like Leonard was lighting the boxing world on fire either at the time. Thanks for posting those excerpts.


It's too tempting not to interject even though I'm predominantly concerned with '76-'82 Leonard, the one who was one of the best and most complete boxer-punchers in the history of filmed boxing, the one who met every single, solitary challenge he feasibly could in one of the greatest welterweight eras in history and came out on top, the one who staged superfights every few months, beat prime undefeated elites and still found time to wipe out another 10 world rated era-contenders in under four years, the one who tried to unify with Cuevas initially and gave Pryor a contract he accepted for a Fall 1982 fight. His biggest crime was immediately jumping back into the ring with the best fighter in boxing coming off an all-time performance against him. What fucking criticism is there to possibly be leveled without looking like a complete spastic?


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Leonard > Floyd

More fact than opinion.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> More cool shit:
> 
> http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...boxing-council-middleweight-sugar-ray-leonard
> 
> ...





Hands of Iron said:


> The 15 rounds bit is sort of interesting considering both Mugabi and Hearns were scheduled for 12.


 @Bogotazo

Here's some interesting stuff re: Benitez from SI you might enjoy since you're literate and love boxing. It's a brilliant little snap shot back into the time. Damn shame that win only gets trumpeted and hyped in hindsight. :lol: atsch

_He had just beaten Wilfred Benitez (38-0-1, 25 KO) for the title, stopping him with six seconds to go in the 15th and final round, and this was one way he was paying for it. That he required extensive makeup to prepare for talk-show television was testimony to what he had been through inside the ring. And, makeup aside, there was no hiding the effect of the mental and physical pressures he had endured in winning the hardest and most important fight of his life from the toughest, most dangerous opponent he had ever met. The night before, he had lain in a bathtub for an hour, unable to attend the party he was throwing at Caesars Palace. "Every bone in my body aches," he said. He had been dehydrated and had slept fitfully, waking up after nightmares with an unquenchable thirst. "I kind of felt like Rocky," he said. "This for me was the ultimate test. There was so much pressure."

The heaviest pressure stemmed from knowing the kind of money he could make if he won the title. Leonard would earn $1 million for the Benitez fight, Benitez $1.2 million, and Sugar Ray knew that if he won there would be more down the line-millions more. He passed the test by scoring a stunning TKO off a deft combination. *He beat perhaps the best defensive fighter in boxing in a match that seemed at once a chess match and a manhunt, a tactical exercise in which two fighters stalked each other, slipped and feinted, and countered and probed for weaknesses. "From a technical standpoint, there was more done in this fight than I've seen done for a long time," said Angelo Dundee, Leonard's trainer. "You saw two smart, scientific fighters-two champions in the ring at the same time. They brought the best out of each other."

And, to the extent they did so, they answered some questions about themselves. There was Leonard, at 23 the sport's ascendant star, going after the title in his 26th professional fight-fast, versatile, intelligent and a superb finisher. "My ambition is to retire financially independent, unharmed," Leonard says. "My ambition is not to be just a good fighter. I want to be something great, something special." What was not known was how he would respond to the kind of pressure that so superb a craftsman as Benitez would bring to bear on him; how he would deal with a tricky, ambidextrous opponent; how well he could take punches over the course of a fight; and how he could handle a full 15 rounds-he had never gone more than 10.

And there was Puerto Rico's Benitez, at 21 ring-wise beyond his years: the junior welterweight champion at 17, the youngest titleholder of all time; the welterweight champion at 20; a counter-puncher with quick hands. How would he deal with Leonard's jab, and how would it affect him that he had not fought since March? "We'll find out whether Ray Leonard is the consummate professional that he appears to be," said Jimmy Jacobs, Benitez' manager. "Leonard will be hit more than he has ever been hit in his life. I think it will go 15 rounds, and I'm extremely confident that Wilfred will win."*

As the bout began, the fighters met in the center of the ring in a 30-second staring match, their faces menacingly stony, inches apart. The crowd, rising, cheered them with loud whoops and whistles.

Then Leonard began moving and jabbing, and it appeared that he had found his target, that this might be an early evening. In the first round he tagged Benitez with a sweet hook that came off a jab and righthand, rocking the champ backwards. But Benitez got away. In the third Leonard caught him again, this time with a cleanly delivered left jab. Benitez went down on the seat of his pants. Up quickly, he took a standing eight-count, and at the bell walked to his corner smiling sheepishly.

Benitez found Leonard with two righthand leads in the fourth, and suddenly Leonard was fighting a different man. "I wasn't aware I was in a championship early because I hit him so easy," Leonard said. "But then he adjusted to my style. It was like looking in a mirror." And Leonard was having trouble hitting his man, especially with the overhand right. Benitez slipped one after another, dipping under them. 
"Go downstairs!" Dundee exhorted Leonard between rounds. "Go to the body. Stick that left in his face. You can't stand in front of him and hit him with a right hand. Forget the right hand!" Leonard held out his hand, indicating where Benitez' face was. "But he's right there!" said Ray.

"Yeah," said Dundee. "He's right there, but then he ain't there."

Occasionally the two fighters stopped face to face, fiat-footed, feinting with their hands, weaving like wind-up dolls and searching for the openings. Leonard was looking at a mirror. In the sixth round, in fact, they cracked their foreheads together. Fortunately for Leonard, the blow raised only a welt. Unfortunately for Benitez, it opened a gash. Blood flowed down his face. His corner treated the cut, but Benitez knew that Leonard could reopen the wound and that the blood could impair his vision. Benitez was suffering from another problem, too. He had injured his left thumb early in the fight, and by the seventh round he was shaking his left glove at his side.

It was an odd fight, with much parrying and displays of ringcraft, and hard to judge. Neither man dominated. Neither could move the other around. Neither could set the other up. And there was not much banging. Leonard landed the harder blows and had Benitez going more than once late in the fight. In the ninth he delivered a flurry of punches, culminating with a right that put Benitez into the ropes. In the 11th Leonard hit him with a hook that jarred his mouthpiece loose. Benitez rope-a-doped. Leonard, who probably missed more punches in this fight than in all his previous 25 pro bouts combined, could not put him away. "No one, I mean no one, can make me miss punches like that," he said. "I kept thinking, 'Man. this guy's really good.' "

If the two used every feint and maneuver in the first 14 rounds, science deferred to war in the 15th. a round they both thought they needed to win. Actually, through 14 rounds Leonard was in front by at least two points on all three cards. Harry Gibbs, the English judge, had them the closest, 136-134 on the 10-points-must system. "Leonard missed so much." he said. "Boxing is the art of self-defense, and Benitez made Leonard miss."

The fighters swung from all points of the compass in the 15th. For weeks, preparing for this fight, Leonard had studied films of Wilfredo Gomez, the super bantamweight champ, who throws a devastating left uppercut. And now, off a jab, Leonard stepped inside and raised one home, catching Benitez on the chin. Down the champion went, to his knees. Regaining his feet, he stepped gingerly to a corner, kicking his legs to get the feeling back. He was ripe now. Leonard threw two punches more, and referee Carlos Padilla stopped the fight. Benitez had been beaten for the first time in 38 professional fights, and Leonard was the WBC's new welterweight champion.

*Perhaps never has a title changed hands with more amicability and sportsmanship. Three times the two men embraced at the postfight press conference. "I have no excuses," said Benitez, with the gash still open and his thumb swelling. "He won easy, you know? He'll win a lot of fights like I do when I was champion, O.K.? He's a great challenger. He became champion beating me. I want to give him a good luck and God bless him."*

Benitez' $1.2 million purse did nothing, of course, to inhibit his feelings of good will. Nor did the prospect of a return engagement next year. The two camps have a gentlemen's agreement for a rematch. Leonard's prospects in the marketplace are limitless now. With television behind Leonard, every opponent he chooses is in for a payday the likes of which he never had before. Among those who may thereby profit are the World Boxing Association champ, Pipino Cuevas, and former lightweight champ Roberto Duran.

The next day, Leonard stared at the mirror as Jermain worked on him. Angelo Dundee stood behind him. Leonard said quietly, "I think we should have had this guy in our corner."_


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Bogotazo
> 
> Here's some interesting stuff re: Benitez from SI you might enjoy since you're literate and love boxing. It's a brilliant little snap shot back into the time. Damn shame that win only gets trumpeted and hyped in hindsight. :lol: atsch
> 
> ...


Get the fuck outta here with all that common sense and facts bullshit!
Don't you see this is now a WWE thread?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> they're two of the most significant in the history of the welterweight division as far as I'm concerned.
> Did Napoles or Gavilan seriously and honestly beat anyone better than them at 147?


- Griffith. My Bitch. Four Times. And they still underrate me...


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I actually think Leonard may have the BEST win over Duran. I mean, it can't be any worse than second anyway but Beartoe was.vastly superior in 1980 to the more crude '72 version.


It's the best win over Duran.

But I'm not sure if it's the best win over the best Duran.

Yes, Duran was more up for Gay Leonard (regardless of countless pathetic excuses) than for some unknown bolivian guy in a non-title fight.

But it's not like Duran of 72 was some kind of unpolished prospect akin to someone like pre-Tua Ibeabuchi.

He was good enough to beat the criminally underrated Marcel and to dethrone Buchanan who was considered one of the best (the best by some) fighters in the world.

Yeah, Duran wasn't as technically avdanced as he would soon become but the ferociousness and fire was there.

Kinda like Azumah - yeah, he was more skilled post-Sanchez but he's never been able to replicated the same relentless aggression later in his career.

And the rematch itself was totally unimpressive - Duran looking like pale imitation of the Montreal beast (nevermind the pryoresque whirlwind who castrated Buchanan) and Leonard running and jumping like he was facing Bob Foster on roids.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Very appropriate gif Turbo.


:lol: Yeah I was wondering how I got back in here


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Setanta said:


> You have to remember that you're talking about three ATG opponents here for Leonard.
> 
> No matter how you rank them, the worst was better than the best Floyd's ever faced.


I never mentioned Floyd.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Bogotazo
> 
> Here's some interesting stuff re: Benitez from SI you might enjoy since you're literate and love boxing. It's a brilliant little snap shot back into the time. Damn shame that win only gets trumpeted and hyped in hindsight. :lol: atsch
> [/I]


That's an incredible read. I need to go back and watch the fight to see if I can track those adjustments. Also didn't know SRL had studied Gomez for that fight. Thanks for sharing that man.


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## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Leonard picked apart and stopped an equally brilliant defensive fighter in Benitez. He's not losing sleep over his chances against Floyd in the public imagination today.


Cool, but you have difficulty offering objective opinions on Floyd, so of course "ray isn't losing sleep...imagination...blah blah" as if its just beyond comprehension that Floyd could win that fight. Floyd would do what he wants to do in there, would it be enough...I don't know, but I'm sure Floyd isn't losing much sleep either, just saying.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Reppin501 said:


> Cool, but you have difficulty offering objective opinions on Floyd, so of course "ray isn't losing sleep...imagination...blah blah" as if its just beyond comprehension that Floyd could win that fight. Floyd would do what he wants to do in there, would it be enough...I don't know, but I'm sure Floyd isn't losing much sleep either, just saying.


Everyone always says I'm biased against Floyd, then they fail to critique any actual argument I have concerning him. I never make a call on Floyd I can't back up with facts.

It's not beyond comprehension Floyd could beat SRL, I said that already if you'd bother to read the thread. Who said Floyd is losing sleep over it? That's not the argument. SRL is accomplished enough not to worry about how the public imagines he would do against Floyd, that's all that comment meant, don't get butthurt.


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## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Everyone always says I'm biased against Floyd, then they fail to critique any actual argument I have concerning him. I never make a call on Floyd I can't back up with facts.
> 
> It's not beyond comprehension Floyd could beat SRL, I said that already if you'd bother to read the thread. Who said Floyd is losing sleep over it? That's not the argument. SRL is accomplished enough not to worry about how the public imagines he would do against Floyd, that's all that comment meant, don't get butthurt.


I'm not butthurt...you are biased against Floyd...not judging you for that just saying.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Reppin501 said:


> I'm not butthurt...you are biased against Floyd...not judging you for that just saying.


How am I biased? What have I said that indicates bias? My statement was on Leonard's security with his own legacy. Damn, can't say anything even remotely or indirectly unflattering about Floyd nowadays.


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## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> How am I biased? What have I said that indicates bias? My statement was on Leonard's security with his own legacy. Damn, can't say anything even remotely or indirectly unflattering about Floyd nowadays.


You're my dude, it's not personal or anything, have you not said you're biased yourself?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> For weeks, preparing for this fight, Leonard had studied films of Wilfredo Gomez, the super bantamweight champ, who throws a devastating left uppercut.


Leonard learned from the best.:yep

Before he fell in love with his power Gomez was almost a perfect fighter.

The best fighter in the world - 1978-1981.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Reppin501 said:


> You're my dude, it's not personal or anything, have you not said you're biased yourself?


Thanks man.

We all have our preferences, but bias is a strong word, when it comes to evaluating wins and skills, I strive to be as objective as possible, so it irks me a bit when people say I'm biased against Floyd based on an argument that makes sense to me. And in this case, that statement was more about Leonard's legacy than Floyd in any way. I just see why SRL isn't sweating what the public thinks of him now as much.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Leonard learned from the best.:yep
> 
> Before he fell in love with his power Gomez was almost a perfect fighter.
> 
> The best fighter in the world - 1978-1981.


Not with Kalule in the mix


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Not with Kalule in the mix


Thanks for bringing him up. Isn't he the guy that single digit fight veteran Davey Moore knocked out?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Not with Kalule in the mix


Kalule outslicked The Unslickable Marijan Benes only in 1980.

Before that he was like Tyson before Spinks - the best but not truly the best.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

I think a few bums need sudocrem applied to them after the rapings Bogotazo's dished out in this thread.

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> Thanks for bringing him up. Isn't he the guy that single digit fight veteran Davey Moore knocked out?


The beating Duran put on Moore was just savage, almost inhumane stuff. I can't help but revel in it though mostly for the raucous crowd and magnitude of the upset he was pulling off. It was and is admittedly pretty fuckin awesome.


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## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> SRL is extremely humble and honest. About catching Duran at the right time. About what his brother said to him and that SRL as a fighter can ko Floyd but but in reality he probably wouldn't win.


Prime Leonard would tear Floyd Jr. up, no ifs, ands or buts. Seriously, not even up for debate.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The beating Duran put on Moore was just savage, almost inhumane stuff. I can't help but revel in it though mostly for the raucous crowd and magnitude of the upset he was pulling off. It was and is admittedly pretty fuckin awesome.


I'm sure the ref wanted Davie more to die in that fight.


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## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The beating Duran put on Moore was just savage, almost inhumane stuff. I can't help but revel in it though mostly for the raucous crowd and magnitude of the upset he was pulling off. It was and is admittedly pretty fuckin awesome.


It's a hell of a win. Maybe not great but excellent. Poor Moore, robbed of a chance at Olympic gold and then thrown in there with an unsacrificial lamb.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)




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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Get the fuck outta here with all that common sense and facts bullshit!
> Don't you see this is now a WWE thread?





turbotime said:


> :lol: Yeah I was wondering how I got back in here





Bogotazo said:


> That's an incredible read. I need to go back and watch the fight to see if I can track those adjustments. Also didn't know SRL had studied Gomez for that fight. Thanks for sharing that man.


 This was interesting stuff from Leonard. Printed in November 1982.

_"I think I first realized that it was time to get out right after the Tommy Hearns fight on Sept. 16, 1981, almost seven months before my eye injury. After beating Hearns and unifying the welterweight title, I had a hard time convincing the public and the press and, most important, myself that the other guys I'd be fighting were legitimate contenders. And I can tell you now that the Bruce Finch fight, my first after the bout with Hearns, was the major factor in my decision to retire. Yes, I knew it as far back as Feb. 15, the night Finch hurt me worse than anyone I had ever fought.

Now a guy like Finch isn't supposed to touch me. You know it; I know it; he knows it. But in the second round he caught me with a combination that hurt me worse than Hearns ever did; worse than Roberto Duran; worse than Wilfred Benitez. I was dazed and I was in trouble, and it wasn't because I wasn't in top shape physically. It was because mentally I just wasn't into fighting a Bruce Finch. I was really shaken, and I backed into a corner knowing full well he'd follow me. I hid that I was hurt, and I knew that with my hand speed and my power, especially to the body, I could get him out of there. I knew I had to get him in close, and I knew I had to knock him out quickly because I couldn't reach him in the middle of the ring. I didn't have the snap in my jab that I expected to have.

I KO'd Finch in the next round and I was grateful that the fight was over. Then came the trip back to the hotel. Normally on the ride back we-my father, Cicero; my trainer, Janks Morton; my manager, Angelo Dundee; my attorney, Mike Trainer, and I-rap about the fight. Usually one of them would say, "Hey, Ray, you hit that guy with a good left hook." Another of them would tell me, "You hit that guy with a good right hand; he couldn't touch you." We always talked about the fight. But not this time. No one said a word. So I said, "Gee." Then I tried to start a conversation: "Hey, I hit this guy with a great hook, didn't I?" I think somebody nodded, and somebody else said, "Yeah." That was it. And once we got to the hotel nobody would sit down and talk with me.

When I got home I talked things over with my wife, Juanita, who wanted me to retire after I beat Benitez for the WBC welterweight championship three years ago. I guess that was because the Benitez fight was the first one since I beat Marcos Geraldo in May 1979 that left me looking like I'd been in a war. I told her that thoughts of quitting had been bothering me for a long time. But I don't think she believed me until the eye injury, and except for Juanita, I kept my ideas about retiring all to myself. But before I had time to evaluate the Finch fight and my career, I was training for Roger Stafford, another Finch.

Now, we were trying to sell that fight. And he was saying things about me that I thought would pump me up. But it didn't help. Nothing helped. Training was awkward. I tried like heck to get back in gear. But I just couldn't. I was in neutral for a long time. Now, training in Buffalo helped some, because the people there appreciated my presence. But most of the time I was a grouch. I was really tough to deal with. I knew it and I didn't like it, but I couldn't help it. I just didn't want to be bothered with anyone. I just didn't have the love for the sport anymore. I'd fulfill my obligations and then confine myself to my room and just sit there alone. That was totally unnatural for me. I love to have the guys around me.

I had a room next to my bedroom which was full of video games. And, except when I had to run or train or eat, I'd stay in the video room alone, or I'd be by myself in the other room just watching movies and sitting around.

Ollie Dunlap, my administrative assistant, would come to my room and say, "Champ, it's time to go downstairs and train." I trained at noon, and he'd come about an hour before. Now, during training for other fights, I'd have been all set to go. I'd have been dressed half on hour before Ollie came. Not this time. I wouldn't start getting dressed until 15 minutes before it was time to go. I saw myself slowing down, not caring.

And then I began to see the spots. I thought, "Gee, one thing leads to another." I complained about the eye, but no one took it seriously. They'd say, "Hey, we all got those spots." And mornings when I ran I would run as fast as I could just to get it over with. Then I'd head straight back to my room. Usually after a run I'd shadowbox some just to loosen up. Now I didn't even do that.

Finally a couple of weeks before the fight I'd had it. I told Janks I was going home for the weekend. And I did. That Sunday I took Juanita and my mother, Getha, to dinner at an Italian restaurant. I ate all the pasta and drank some wine. Now, I never break training, not like that. And the one day I did run when I was home I quit in the middle. I was running with Irving Millard and Craig Jones, my two security guards, and at about the mile-and-a-half or two-mile mark I just started walking. The guys were surprised and thought something was wrong. Something was. I told them, "Man, I'm tired of this. I just don't want it anymore. After this fight I'm going to quit."

When I got back to Buffalo, my eye still wasn't right, so I decided to see a doctor. You've all read about how the first doctor I saw prescribed eye drops because she didn't think my injury was serious. But I knew it was, and I went to another doctor in the Buffalo area. He was right to the point: "Ray, you have a detached retina." I wasn't shocked. The mental state I was in, I would've shown more concern if he'd told me I had dandruff. I flew to Baltimore the next day, and the following morning Dr. Michels operated on the eye.

I think I would have retired after the Stafford fight anyway. But no one really knows himself or what he'll do in the future. I might have said, this is it, and then two months later made a comeback. And I think that if, after Stafford, they had come to me and said, "Ray, here's $20 million to fight Hagler, just sign your name," I'd have gone for it.

But the injury made the decision to retire all that easier. I had beat up all the big names, and there wasn't a welterweight who could deal with me. I think it was meant for me to get out because I would have taken those little-known guys lightly, just as I'd taken Finch lightly, and it would have been a disaster.

I've always been very aware of how I perform, and I knew I couldn't perform as well as I should because I'd be thinking about the eye, and that would take away from my abilities. Knowing that, it would be foolish to say that I'm coming back. With all of that against me, I might as well go in the ring handcuffed.

Although I'd made up my mind that I'd retire after the Stafford fight, we had already signed to fight Aaron Pryor, and I wanted to go ahead with that because I just had to close his big mouth. He had been saying a lot of bad things about me, and I wanted him in the ring. I mean, I wanted him bad. Pryor was telling people that I owed him. Owed him for what? He said we'd been friends once, that I should have helped him. I asked him, "Aaron, who helped me?" He said we had been friends. That's the reason friends don't work for me-they're always expecting you to do them favors. It's difficult to have family and friends working for you.

I listened to Pryor's mouth and I was dying to put a fist into it. Even so, while training for Stafford, I told Trainer, who was negotiating for fights overseas as well as ones with Pryor and Alexis Arguello, that after Stafford I needed some time to think. Now, Mike had worked hard to line up those fights. He was always thinking a year ahead of everybody else. But I told him to cancel everything. I think I shocked him, but he said, "If that's what you want, that's what you get."

I say I had run out of challenges, but I have to admit again that Hagler was always in the back of my mind. Now here was one more mountain to climb, and if I hadn't had the eye injury, I might have gone for it. It would have been a fight on the same level as Benitez and Hearns and Duran II. I would have had no problem getting up for Hagler. And I would have fought him at 160 pounds. All that stuff about wanting him to fight at 154 was nonsense. We were just pumping up the fight. He'd have been foolish to fight me at 154. I know he wouldn't have done it, because I wouldn't have done it if I'd been the middleweight. I know Hagler as a man and as a champion, and I always believed if we fought it would be at 160.

But then came the injury, and I knew I wasn't going to fight Hagler or anyone else again. And once I made up my mind there were never any second thoughts. Not one. Juanita knew I meant it and she was happy. My father, Pops, I don't know. I think he thought I'd fight again. My mother, well, it's hard to read my mother. All my friends thought I would fight. My brother, Kenny, also had the feeling I'd fight. Ollie said he still had the door open. I think I finally convinced Janks, but it took a while. Angelo knows my decision is final. And Mike always was sure I'd never fight again."_


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> This was interesting stuff from Leonard. Printed in November 1982.
> 
> _"I think I first realized that it was time to get out right after the Tommy Hearns fight on Sept. 16, 1981, almost seven months before my eye injury. After beating Hearns and unifying the welterweight title, I had a hard time convincing the public and the press and, most important, myself that the other guys I'd be fighting were legitimate contenders. And I can tell you now that the Bruce Finch fight, my first after the bout with Hearns, was the major factor in my decision to retire. Yes, I knew it as far back as Feb. 15, the night Finch hurt me worse than anyone I had ever fought.
> 
> ...


Bullshit!
He ducked Pryor and waited until Hagler got old.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> This was interesting stuff from Leonard. Printed in November 1982.
> 
> _"I think I first realized that it was time to get out right after the Tommy Hearns fight on Sept. 16, 1981, almost seven months before my eye injury. After beating Hearns and unifying the welterweight title, I had a hard time convincing the public and the press and, most important, myself that the other guys I'd be fighting were legitimate contenders. And I can tell you now that the Bruce Finch fight, my first after the bout with Hearns, was the major factor in my decision to retire. Yes, I knew it as far back as Feb. 15, the night Finch hurt me worse than anyone I had ever fought.
> 
> ...


So crazy to read that with the hindsight of what ended up happening. Also reminds me of an article I read recently about depression in boxing, how fighters go through the motions and "suck it up" but never suspect there's a problem. I love that Leonard, while he has a huge ego, seems to be pretty damn open and honest. More than he needs to be and more than most other fighters.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Bullshit! He ducked Pryor and waited until Hagler got old.





Bogotazo said:


> So crazy to read that with the hindsight of what ended up happening. Also reminds me of an article I read recently about depression in boxing, how fighters go through the motions and "suck it up" but never suspect there's a problem. I love that Leonard, while he has a huge ego, seems to be pretty damn open and honest. More than he needs to be and more than most other fighters.


Who tops this run in such a short window?

_*Sep 1978: Floyd Mayweather Sr (15-1) W-TKO10
Oct 1978: Randy Shields (31-4) W-UD10*
Dec 1978: Armando Muniz (44-13) W-RTD6
*Jan 1979: Johnny Gant (44-11) W-TKO8*
Feb 1979: Fernand Marcotte (48-8) W-TKO8
Mar 1979: Daniel Gonzalez (52-2) W-KO1
*Apr 1979: Adolfo Viruet (16-3) W-UD10*
May 1979: Marcos Geraldo (46-14) W-UD10
*Jun 1979: Tony Chiaverini (30-4) W-RTD4
Aug 1979: Pete Ranzany (45-3) W-TKO4
Sep 1979: Andy Price (28-5) W-KO1
Nov 1979: Wilfred Benitez (38-0) W-TKO15
Mar 1980: Dave Green (33-2) W-KO4
Jun 1980: Roberto Duran (71-1) L-UD15
Nov 1980: Roberto Duran (72-1) W-TKO8*
Mar 1981: Larry Bonds (29-3) W-TKO10
*Jun 1981: Ayub Kalule (36-0) W-TKO9
Sep 1981: Thomas Hearns (32-0) W-TKO14
Feb 1982: Bruce Finch (28-3) W-TKO3*_

BOLD = Top 10 Rated at 147/154 at the time of bout


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Who tops this run in such a short window?
> 
> _*Sep 1978: Floyd Mayweather Sr (15-1) W-TKO10
> Oct 1978: Randy Shields (31-4) W-UD10*
> ...


Beautiful.


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

I can't believe this went 38 pages..


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Exactly. Three ATGs and a fourth lineal champ a class up with a combined record of 178-1 when he fought them, average age 25, in a span of 22 months. He utterly cleaned out a historically strong, historically rich division and won a Gold medal for his country. Still has his health and over $100 million dollars in the bank. Floyd will probably go broke and his best win is Corrales. What the hell does Leonard care seriously? :lol:


Ray Leonard does not have wealth over $100 Mil that is a lie! He was too tight ass to even shell out another million for the prize money on contender after the first season as he said he only had 20mil left :yep


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Who tops this run in such a short window?
> 
> _*Sep 1978: Floyd Mayweather Sr (15-1) W-TKO10
> Oct 1978: Randy Shields (31-4) W-UD10*
> ...


That is very impressive indeed.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Beautiful.





tliang1000 said:


> That is very impressive indeed.


Yeah, but see that's part of the problem when people rate Leonard all-time at 147. They focus on his lack of defenses as champion on that Cliff Rold shit even though he plowed through loads of world rated guys before he even took the title from Benitez. For instance, Henry Armstrong - who funnily enough went a lot more ham on paper from '37-'40 - has 18 title defenses at welterweight yet fought all of two guys who were actually rated at 147 -- Ceferino Garcia and Ernie Roderick, not including winning it from Ross and losing it to Zivic. That's not to say he didn't make some defenses over other top level guys, they just weren't welterweights. If you say, "Well, Henry wasn't even a welter himself" -- Exactly! And he hasn't any real business being put over SRL there divisionally IMO. Definitely boasts one of the greatest single wins ever though against Ross.


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah, but see that's part of the problem when people rate Leonard all-time at 147. They focus on his lack of defenses as champion on that Cliff Rold shit even though he plowed through loads of world rated guys before he even took the title from Benitez. For instance, Henry Armstrong - who funnily enough went a lot more ham on paper from '37-'40 - has 18 title defenses at welterweight yet fought all of two guys who were actually rated at 147 -- Ceferino Garcia and Ernie Roderick, not including winning it from Ross and losing it to Zivic. That's not to say he didn't make some defenses over other top level guys, they just weren't welterweights. If you say, "Well, Henry wasn't even a welter himself" -- Exactly! And he hasn't any real business being put over SRL there divisionally IMO. Definitely boasts one of the greatest single wins ever though against Ross.


Seriously, are you a professional historian? I'm impressed at the knowledge posted here.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Who tops this run in such a short window?


Certainly not Robinson.:hey

But Ezz is the man for the job:yep


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Beautiful.





rjjfan said:


> Seriously, are you a professional historian? I'm impressed at the knowledge posted here.


:lol: It's just information really.

People get sort of pissy when I do that stuff for more modern guys like Leonard, but unfortunately that's essentially all you're really working with for guys like Greb, Armstrong, 147 Robinson. I have no clue how good dudes like Ralph Zanelli, Tony Motisi, Norman Rubio or Jimmy McDaniels were (rated welterweight Robinson beat). They'd probably get schooled by Ranzany and Price, but who knows.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: It's just information really.
> 
> People get sort of pissy when I do that stuff for more modern guys like Leonard, but unfortunately that's essentially all you're really working with for guys like Greb, Armstrong, 147 Robinson. I have no clue how good dudes like Ralph Zanelli, Tony Motisi, Norman Rubio or Jimmy McDaniels were (rated welterweight Robinson beat). They'd probably get schooled by Ranzany and Price, but who knows.


Who the fuck were they?!

:-(


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I have no clue how good dudes like Ralph Zanelli, Tony Motisi, Norman Rubio or Jimmy McDaniels were (rated welterweight Robinson beat)


But what we do know is that dudes like Cocoa, Lytell, Holman, Burley definitely weren't worthy of a shot at Robinson.

He is the greatest after all - surely he fought the best competition available?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol: It's just information really.
> 
> People get sort of pissy when I do that stuff for more modern guys like Leonard, but unfortunately that's essentially all you're really working with for guys like Greb, Armstrong, 147 Robinson. I have no clue how good dudes like Ralph Zanelli, Tony Motisi, Norman Rubio or Jimmy McDaniels were (rated welterweight Robinson beat). They'd probably get schooled by Ranzany and Price, but who knows.


Yeah i mainly watch matches for betting purposes. I have seen most of the significant classic fights that people talk about and some high regarded ATGs of course but everything in-between i don't really, unless i have a reason.

From most of what i saw is boxing no matter if it is from the 60s to present day. Some I see the oldies do better and some modern guys do better. And some elites from the past looks impressive as well as modern elites which is why i was never really bought into the myth that a group of fighters were so much better than the others but rather if it was more relevant at the time. If you get what i'm saying.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Beautiful.





Bogotazo said:


> Who the fuck were they?!
> 
> :-(


Probably the part time plumbers @turbotime has been warning everybody about for years now.

Look, Leonard is the best welterweight I've ever seen and he has the top wins and depth to back it up.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> But what we do know is that dudes like Cocoa, Lytell, Holman, Burley definitely weren't worthy of a shot at Robinson.
> 
> He is the greatest after all - surely he fought the best competition available?


:rofl

Yet I'm supposed to assume he fights the likes of Hearns, Benitez, Hagler? Hell even Kalule, with his extremely dark skin, superb technical footwork and mastery of range?

On the really real though Lester, it'd be understandable if Burley brought him nothing financially. He turned down a career high payday.


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## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Probably the part time plumbers @turbotime has been warning everybody about for years now.
> 
> Look, Leonard is the best welterweight I've ever seen and he has the top wins and depth to back it up.


It's the full time ones that best be worried about :deal


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> So crazy to read that with the hindsight of what ended up happening. Also reminds me of an article I read recently about depression in boxing, how fighters go through the motions and "suck it up" but never suspect there's a problem. I love that Leonard, while he has a huge ego, seems to be pretty damn open and honest. More than he needs to be and more than most other fighters.


Liking him any better than the old school ESB days and arguments with MAG? :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> It's the full time ones that best be worried about :deal


:lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Hm?


Yeah man, you think Duran did anything more than just enough to make weight and pick up the paychecks after the Leonard fights? His passion for fighting was dead. He took off 9 months after SRL II and at 154 didnt look a fraction the fighter he'd been from 130-147. The best shape he may of been afterwards was for the Benitez fight. He was on point weeks before the bout and it's probably a very good win there. He'd swelled up to almost 200 lbs before the Hearns fight (was actually more 180ish before Leonard II), he didn't give a shit. He was one of the most fearless cats in the history of boxing, long as he was getting payed he don't really give a fuck. Even when he was on top of his game and at his peak, he had poor work habits. He was witty, unpredictable (ferocious) talent and natural game over Hard Work and Dedication. :yep Robearto(e) the G.

January 1978:

_*Equally vocal, the two also are equally dedicated: neither will go down in history as an advocate of hard work. Both would rather play than train, and sometimes both have been known to play while training. But for this fight, the two old rivals had been training for weeks, DeJesus by choice, Duran more or less by trickery.

"Sometimes getting Duran into the gym can be a very difficult thing," says Eleta, who is the champion's multimillionaire patron as well as his manager. "His trouble is that he has been champion for 5 years. He knows everyone in Panama, and they will give him anything he wants. With all that, getting him back to work is a chore. But this time I played a little trick. I told him that he had a tune-up fight in Panama before DeJesus. He trained hard at home for a month. Then I told him the tune-up fight had been called off, and I sent him to Los Angeles to train. Of course, there was no such tune-up. But he had worked very hard for four extra weeks and now is in the best shape of his career. He laughed when I told him of my trick."*

For trainers, Duran has Ray Arcel, 78, and Freddie Brown, 71; in the last half century they have worked with 38 world champions. They seem to have a special rapport with Duran, forcing him to train industriously, if not happily. After every fight he fires them; before the next fight he rehires them.

"Our trouble is that the trainers he has in Panama can't handle him, they can't control him," Eleta says. "And he knows this is not good for him. Only Brown and Arcel can control him. That is why before every fight he calls me and says, 'Where are they? I need them. Please call and get them for me.' "

Under the ancient pair's exacting tutelage-and with the extra month's work behind him-*Duran's usual struggle to make the 135-pound weight limit was easier.* His only problem in Los Angeles was in finding sparring partners, whom the Panamanian pounds without mercy.

When Duran works, everybody works. In one sparring session he broke the nose of Mike Youngblood, a 160-pounder out of Philadelphia with a 14-0 record. Duran's handlers immediately were off in search of new fodder. They came back with a kid named Jorge Morales.

*"Unfortunately, we overlooked the fact that Morales was a Puerto Rican like DeJesus," says Luis Henriquez, a Duran adviser. "It wasn't a smart move."

During a sparring session Morales began to taunt Duran with suggestions of what DeJesus was going to do to him. "He kick your ass," Morales said. Duran was not amused. And then, when Morales insulted Panama, Duran began ripping off his gloves so that he could have a go at Morales with bare knuckles.

Wisely, Morales fled the ring. His father was less fortunate. Leaping into the ring, the senior Morales went after Duran, who dispatched him with a right hand to the head. Suddenly the ring was full of people, few of them friendly, and Duran, once more the violent child of mean streets, began whacking away at everyone within range.

"It was unnerving," says Tony Rivera, one of Duran's assistant trainers. "We got Duran in the corner, but he broke loose and started all over again. He just ran around the ring looking for people to hit."*

When word of the brawl reached Las Vegas, promoter Don King's hair stood up even straighter. "He could have been injured seriously," he said. "What else can happen before this fight?" King had worked for two years to put together the match, ever since DeJesus had won the WBC version of the title from Ishimatsu Suzuki in May of 1976. The problems had been monumental.

"It was a job just to get the two managers of the fighters to even think about a match," King says. "They had fought twice and neither wanted to fight a third time. First I convinced DeJesus. But the hard part was convincing Eleta. Then, when we did agree, trying to find a site that pleased him was almost impossible. One place was too cold; the next too hot. A third place, somewhere in Africa, was O.K., but then Eleta didn't think he could get Duran's money out. He finally said yes to Las Vegas."

That was only the beginning of the promotion problems. There were lawsuits and threatened lawsuits, and the fight was off and on again. "What else can happen?" King moaned_

June 1979:

_It was the turn of Roberto Duran, bringing a sense of almost surrealistic beauty to savagery, fighting for the first time as a welterweight and, after 10 brutal rounds, chasing Carlos Palomino, the former WBC champion, into retirement. Duran had been awesome among the lightweights, whom he ruled without mercy for seven years. He may be even better at 147 pounds. The higher weight slowed Duran not at all. He bewildered Palomino with flicking head and shoulder feints; he battered him with punches thrown at blinding speed. At times, just for fun, he feinted from the left, feinted from the right, and then, with Palomino in a flux of frantic confusion, stepped back and flashed a wolfish grin as Palomino untangled himself. Duran won 99-90 on all three cards.

*"Aw, I wasn't that good," he said after this, his 66th victory in 67 fights. "I didn't train that hard in Panama. I guess I am just lazy. But next time I will train very hard. Next time I will be very good."*_

June 1980:

_Early of a morning five years ago, while training for a fight in New York, Roberto Duran put on his sweat suit, joined his perpetual shadow, Trainer Freddie Brown, and started out of the Hotel Mayflower to do his roadwork in Central Park. But it was raining when they hit the street. Not wanting to expose his fighter to the chill of the elements, certainly not on the eve of a fight, Brown waved Duran back inside.

"If it stops raining," Freddie said, "I'll call you."

Duran returned to his room, Brown to his. Half an hour later Brown peeked out the window and saw that the rain had stopped. He went to Duran's room.

*"No rain," said Freddie. "We go."

Duran waved the trainer away. "No," the fighter said. Duran was overweight, as usual, and needed the work to trim down to 135 pounds, the ceiling for the lightweight division. Over the last few years-ever since Duran had pounded Ken Buchanan loose from his lightweight title in 1972-Brown had served not only as Duran's chief cut man, counselor and chaperon, but also as his conscience, a stern reminder that Roberto must work to win.

"Come on," said Freddie, "ya gotta go, ya gotta run."

Duran was standing at the door of the room, facing it, when he exploded in a rage. He suddenly threw his awesome straight right hand into the door. The thwack resounded like a thunderclap. On the adjacent wall a framed picture fell to the floor, its pane of glass shattering. Saying nothing, Brown left the room and headed for the lobby. Duran soon joined him and set out on his run.*_

:rofl :deal


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah man, you think Duran did anything more than just enough to make weight and pick up the paychecks after the Leonard fights? His passion for fighting was dead. He took off 9 months after SRL II and at 154 didnt look a fraction the fighter he'd been from 130-147. The best shape he may of been afterwards was for the Benitez fight. He was on point weeks before the bout and it's probably a very good win there. He'd swelled up to almost 200 lbs before the Hearns fight (was actually more 180ish before Leonard II), he didn't give a shit. He was one of the most fearless cats in the history of boxing, long as he was getting payed he don't really give a fuck. Even when he was on top of his game and at his peak, he had poor work habits. He was witty, unpredictable (ferocious) talent and natural game over Hard Work and Dedication. :yep Robearto(e) the G.
> 
> January 1978:
> 
> ...


Good read, which book was that extracted from?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Liking him any better than the old school ESB days and arguments with MAG? :lol:


Freakin MAG. Google "Leonard fought his fight" and "Leonard was the variable" and you'lll see his famous.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Leftsmash said:


> Good read, which book was that extracted from?


All SI vault articles, mostly. Boxing was actually taken seriously then and covered so, so much better.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Freakin MAG. Google "Leonard fought his fight" and "Leonard was the variable" and you'lll see his famous.


He was just mad that Duran did what Hearns, Hagler and Benitez couldn't. What most welters in history wouldn't.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Probably the part time plumbers @turbotime has been warning everybody about for years now.
> 
> Look, Leonard is the best welterweight I've ever seen and he has the top wins and depth to back it up.


:rofl

Those articles were ill. SRL was not to be fucked with...unless you're you know who :yep


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

lmao what a hilariously furious legend.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :rofl
> 
> Those articles were ill. SRL was not to be fucked with...unless you're you know who :yep


It's a good thing Roy fought Toney. That's the best win of the last 20 years.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's a good thing Roy fought Toney. That's the best win of the last 20 years.


And maybe the best performance in terms of top competition. Then maybe Pea/Chavez, Pac/Barrera, riGOD/Donaire, Hopkins/Tito, May/Corrales...... I smell a thread coming on :yep


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> And maybe the best performance in terms of top competition. Then maybe Pea/Chavez, Pac/Barrera, riGOD/Donaire, Hopkins/Tito, May/Corrales...... I smell a thread coming on :yep


I have to sleep, gonna miss it unless you start it later tonight. :-(


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I have to sleep, gonna miss it unless you start it later tonight. :-(


I just woke up! :twisted


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I just woke up! :twisted


Mull it over all day. :yep


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> And maybe the best performance in terms of top competition. Then maybe Pea/Chavez, Pac/Barrera, riGOD/Donaire, Hopkins/Tito, May/Corrales...... I smell a thread coming on :yep


Don't forget Shane-Oskee.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Don't forget Shane-Oskee.


Epic stuff. Oskee kept it tight until the last 3 rounds though

Then Shane's balco kicked in :verysad


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Epic stuff. Oskee kept it tight until the last 3 rounds though
> 
> Then Shane's balco kicked in :verysad


:lol: Not Balco yet. But perhaps something else. Mysteries....


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :lol: Not Balco yet. But perhaps something else. Mysteries....


Same year as Marion Jones won all her stuff too :think


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Same year as Marion Jones won all her stuff too :think


Wasn't that Heredia?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Wasn't that Heredia?


I'm really not sure but I thought Jones was one of the athletes that came forward like Shane did.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> And maybe the best performance in terms of top competition. Then maybe Pea/Chavez, Pac/Barrera, riGOD/Donaire, Hopkins/Tito, May/Corrales...... I smell a thread coming on :yep





turbotime said:


> Epic stuff. Oskee Shane


Mosley-Forrest was as great as it was shocking.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Mosley-Forrest was as great as it was shocking.


Yeah, that was insanity! Forrest brroke my heart that night


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah, that was insanity! Forrest brroke my heart that night


Watched it only once long time ago but if I remember correctly Shane did much better in the rematch - he almost pulled it off.

Mosley was never the same after the Forrest fights - very rapid decline.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah, that was insanity! Forrest brroke my heart that night


And as fans were about to proclaim Forrest the next thing he loses to some unknown bolivian:!:


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Watched it only once long time ago but if I remember correctly Shane did much better in the rematch - he almost pulled it off.
> 
> Mosley was never the same after the Forrest fights - very rapid decline.


Shane almost won his Wright rematch as well. Poor guy was really mismanaged after the Delahoya win.



Lester1583 said:


> And as fans were about to proclaim Forrest the next thing he loses to some unknown bolivian:!:


Talk about rapid declines, happened to Forrest as well. He looked so meh every time I watched him besides the first Mosley fights. The fights I think with Frank something were awful bores too


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Shane almost won his Wright rematch as well. Poor guy was really mismanaged after the Delahoya win.


Mosley was never great at 154 - as soon as he signed those Winky fights I knew he was fucked.

Mosley-Trinidad is one those fights that should have happened.



turbotime said:


> Talk about rapid declines, happened to Forrest as well. He looked so meh every time I watched him besides the first Mosley fights. The fights I think with Frank something were awful bores too


Yup. Although, to be fair, Forrest suffered numerous shoulder injuries.

And yes he wasn't the most exciting fighter even before the Mosley fights.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

@Hands of Iron 's performance in this thread is real MVP stuff.

As a reward,I will provide photographic proof that Walter White is alive and well and running a bar in Glasgow in the next few days.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Watched it only once long time ago but if I remember correctly Shane did much better in the rematch - he almost pulled it off.
> 
> Mosley was never the same after the Forrest fights - very rapid decline.





Lester1583 said:


> Mosley was never great at 154 - as soon as he signed those Winky fights I knew he was fucked.
> 
> Mosley-Trinidad is one those fights that should have happened.
> 
> ...


Forrest shoulder only bugged him from the Mayorga rematch on IIRC. He uppercutted the fuck out of Ricardo and Mayorga numerous times and he ate it like birthday cake.

Can't believe he'd rather defend his belt than fight Tito atsch Fucking Shane


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> He uppercutted the fuck out of Ricardo and Mayorga numerous times and he ate it like birthday cake.


Really embarrassing losses.

One of the best examples of textbook approach negated by crude unorthodox aggression.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :good Absolutly spot on! James Toney is just another example of a boxer who is streets ahead of this phantom farce Mayweather:deal
> 
> Fuckin skills!!! If mayweather had the skills he would'nt have spent these last 6 years avoiding all clear & present dangers, his resume is piss poor at best! Mayweather is just a gob shyte fraud, if Castillo can fuck him up & Judah best him for 5 rounds then Mayweather's gonna get fuckin murdered by Duran/SRL/Hearns & co. Only a premature ejaclator would think that mayweather has more skill!!!! SKILL? What fucking SKILL? Sqeaking past an old man in DLH, WBU standard HATTON! C Level scrapper GATTI, D Level BAG of CEMENT Baldomir:lol:
> 
> ...


:lol: I just came across this again, and it sounded so familiar. This is fucking Duranimal's post isn't it?

"hope for the best" :rofl that fucking kills me every time.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :lol: I just came across this again, and it sounded so familiar. This is fucking Duranimal's post isn't it?
> 
> "hope for the best" :rofl that fucking kills me every time.


:rofl

Word-for-Word. I obviously don't believe those things about Floyd.

"Hide Behind The Shoulder & Hope For The Best" is undoubtedly the promotional and fight poster slogan for Duran-Mayweather.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

or "SKILL? What Fucking SKILL???" would work. :lol:


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hey guys, I'm just trying to troll on Tommy Hearns. What else can I add to this?
@Hands of Iron @Bogotazo @turbotime @Lester1583

6'1, 78 inch reach and this 'Hitman' needs to bully the welterweights? Oh please this guy should be jailed.
Pipino Cuevas has the shit chin syndrome. He gets on a lucky KO streak because of his punching power and then his luck runs out and gets KTFO left right and centre. They called his loss to Stafford 'Upset of the Year', I called it 'Exposure of the Year'. Congratulations Tommy for landing one on Cuevas' glass chin. Wow, you can throw a punch and Cuevas wasn't lucky that day. House point to Thomas. 
Sugar Ray Leonard systematically breaks Hearns down, let's Hearns believe he's going to win, building up to a high place just so he can see that tall tree Hearns fall. You think SRL didn't know what he was doing? TKO loss against a true ATG in SRL, a king among amateurs, the subordinate of The king of amateurs, Hi-Tech Lomachenko.
Wilfried Benitez..haha, don't even get me started on this guy. He was a lazy kid who didn't even train for his fights, if Hearns didn't beat this version of Benitez then may God have mercy on his soul. Did you know he was past prime because he was a pro since he was a little snot ragged toddler? 
Robert Duran anyone? Old, shop worn, fat Duran anyone? 
So Tommy finally moves up to a bigger weight where he should have been all along. Woopsy daisy he just gets KTFO by Hagler, who himself has an unimpressive list of scalps on his resume and remains butthurt about SRL to this day. 
Doug DeWitt? Doug DeWho?
B class fighter Iran Barkley exposed Hearns for the fraud he really is. Maybe I didn't have to talk about Hearns' resume and just said 'IRAN BARKLEY'. That would have answered all questions. 
Sugar Ray Leonard is so past prime at this point, but Hearns knows this of course. 
Virgil Hill the paper champion who did nothing but dodge the best and his title defenses were against quasi-challengers which got him into the HOF. Thomas would have had a better legacy win if he beat premier paper champion Antonio DeMarco. A win like that gets you into the P4P lists apparently..


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hearns beat c and b class fighters at welterweight. For all of the Hearns nuthugging that goes on who did he really beat at welterweight? Cuevas? Niguh please, he wuldn't have even been champ in the 90s


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Hey guys, I'm just trying to troll on Tommy Hearns. What else can I add to this?
> 
> @Hands of Iron @Bogotazo @turbotime @Lester1583
> 
> ...


Hearns couldn't knock out one eyed out of his best weight shopworn Muangsurin who'd already been stopped by Sang Hyun Kim who feather fisted Saoul Mamby knocked out a few fights later.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Hearns couldn't knock out one eyed out of his best weight shopworn Muangsurin who'd already been stopped by Sang Hyun Kim who feather fisted Saoul Mamby knocked out a few fights later.


Are these names some sort of secret code?

On a sidenote, I wonder how Hearns vs Barbados Walcot would go.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Are these names some sort of secret code?
> 
> On a sidenote, I wonder how Hearns vs Barbados Walcot would go.


Hearns wins on DQ. (Low Blows)


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dyna said:


> Are these names some sort of secret code?
> 
> On a sidenote, I wonder how Hearns vs Barbados Walcot would go.


I think Walcott needs some revision.

Yes, he wore handcuffs. Yes he was a tiny midget with immense power. And yes he fared really well with bigger guys he had a speed advantage over and was clearly a great P4P fighter (I usually have him in the top 20, but maybe I was over estimating him a bit)

But this whole 'he couldn't be outfought' is bollocks. Lavigne and Mysterious Billy Smith stood toe to toe with him and survived. Not only that, they outfought him. Top, top class in-fighters no doubt, but that means I'd certainly pick Chavez & Armstrong as well. Walcott might well smash Cuevas or Tito in a gun fight though.

Someone who can keep him at range is gonna' be a nightmare for him. YES he of all people has a chance to swoop under and crack Hearns with a weird leaping shot. But I have no doubt that if Tommy uses his range he would barely break a sweat. Unless Walcott was like Gamboa he woudn't have the big edge in speed against Hearns. And even then it wouldn't make much of a difference IMO


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I think Walcott needs some revision.
> 
> Yes, he wore handcuffs. Yes he was a tiny midget with immense power. And yes he fared really well with bigger guys he had a speed advantage over and was clearly a great P4P fighter (I usually have him in the top 20, but maybe I was over estimating him a bit)
> 
> ...


Could height have also played a role in his ("lack of") success against the smaller men?
It gets very easy to dodge punches when you're 5+ inches shorter than your opponents but when they're actually closer to your own height it gets harder to duck and they can actually hit the point of the chin.
Also it's very easy to protect your body if you're that much shorter.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dyna said:


> Could height have also played a role in his ("lack of") success against the smaller men?
> It gets very easy to dodge punches when you're 5+ inches shorter than your opponents but when they're actually closer to your own height it gets harder to duck and they can actually hit the point of the chin.
> Also it's very easy to protect your body if you're that much shorter.


Possibly, but they were in close and he was a short punching dynamo. They took it (and took a shellacking)

I think most agree that he was better against guys bigger than himself. But there's this whole 'if you fought it out with him you were in trouble'.

You were, but not always in grave danger.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Hearns beat c and b class fighters at welterweight. For all of the Hearns nuthugging that goes on who did he really beat at welterweight? Cuevas? Niguh please, he wuldn't have even been champ in the 90s





Flea Man said:


> Hearns couldn't knock out one eyed out of his best weight shopworn Muangsurin who'd already been stopped by Sang Hyun Kim who feather fisted Saoul Mamby knocked out a few fights later.


Thank you for the finishing touches.

Basically, KO'd against SRL, beat paperchamps, guys with shit chins, beat shot fighters, a bully with his physique beating C grade welterweights, can't even finish a blind old body, lost to B grade Iran Barkley. The dude is the great pretender.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Thank you for the finishing touches.
> 
> Basically, KO'd against SRL, beat paperchamps, guys with shit chins, beat shot fighters, a bully with his physique beating C grade welterweights, can't even finish a blind old body, lost to B grade Iran Barkley. The dude is the great pretender.


Heart-breaking stuff. :lol: :cry

I don't think we'll ever see another fighter with Hearns' blend of physical attributes, power and boxing ability relative to a weight class like he was at 147/154. One of the all-time freaks. Really fucking great guy too who meant what he said about wanting to put on a show for his fans. I find it terribly hard not to like him, so I couldn't add to that even in trolling spirit.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Heart-breaking stuff. :lol: :cry
> 
> *I don't think we'll ever see another fighter with Hearns' blend of physical attributes, power and boxing ability relative to a weight class like he was at 147/154*. One of the all-time freaks. Really fucking great guy too who meant what he said about wanting to put on a show for his fans. I find it terribly hard not to like him, so I couldn't add to that even in trolling spirit.


Ya'll musta forgot


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Heart-breaking stuff. :lol: :cry
> 
> I don't think we'll ever see another fighter with Hearns' blend of physical attributes, power and boxing ability relative to a weight class like he was at 147/154. One of the all-time freaks. Really fucking great guy too who meant what he said about wanting to put on a show for his fans. I find it terribly hard not to like him, so I couldn't add to that even in trolling spirit.


lol just because you troll someone it doesn't mean you don't like them. Tommy was badAZZ. 'Hearns physical attributes relative to a weight class he was at' - aka a bully :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Ya'll musta forgot


Nah, he's just a default exception to everything. :lol:



The Undefeated Gaul said:


> lol just because you troll someone it doesn't mean you don't like them. Tommy was badAZZ. 'Hearns physical attributes relative to a weight class he was at' - aka a bully :lol:


How? He wasn't part of a drainer era. He was a true 147/154 lb fighter while competing there. Unlike most of the pigs today who'd he'd still destroy easily.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah, he's just a default exception to everything. :lol:


Yeah this is pretty true actually. Maybe Lennox as far as attributes go. The guy would actually get up on his toes and box. at 6'5 with his jab and power is crazy


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah this is pretty true actually. Maybe Lennox as far as attributes go. The guy would actually get up on his toes and box. at 6'5 with his jab and power is crazy


Lennox is definitely another.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Ya'll musta forgot


So much Guts and Pride.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> So much Guts and Pride.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

For every Hearns, there's a Paul Williams.
Shame he fought like a retard when you consider his height.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


>


If people we're pissed at SRL-Duran III, they had no right to be with that. At what point do you just take the paycheck you originally signed on for? There's almost nothing else they were really fighting for by that point. Except pride, it turned out.

And Leonard would've stopped him again if it was scheduled for 15. :lol: atsch


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> If people we're pissed at SRL-Duran III, they had no right to be with that. At what point do you just take the paycheck you originally signed on for? There's almost nothing else they were really fighting for by that point. Except pride, it turned out.
> 
> And Leonard would've stopped him again if it was scheduled for 15. :lol: atsch


Insane. SRL WOULDVe stopped him the next round


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Insane. SRL WOULDVe stopped him the next round


People may talk of obligation and whatnot... Nah man, they ain't gotta do shit. These dudes were bombing on each other. The fire was ridiculous given the circumstances of the whole thing :lol:


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> People may talk of obligation and whatnot... Nah man, they ain't gotta do shit. These dudes were bombing on each other. The fire was ridiculous given the circumstances of the whole thing :lol:


They were fighters. I hate saying it but they won't make them like that ever again


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> They were fighters. I hate saying it but they won't make them like that ever again


I admire Floyd's dedication though. I don't think people realize how easy it is to completely drop the fuck off the map when you've achieved that enormous level of success. I wouldn't be able to do it, not a fucking chance. I also admire his skills (obviously) and his fighting true to the weight class and not adding 15-20 lbs overnight. He's old school as hell in so many ways... and yeah, I know, doesn't belong to this era.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> *I admire Floyd's dedication though. I don't think people realize how easy it is to completely drop the fuck off the map when you've achieved that enormous level of success. I wouldn't be able to do it, not a fucking chance.* I also admire his skills (obviously) and his fighting true to the weight class and not adding 15-20 lbs overnight. He's old school as hell in so many ways... and yeah, I know, doesn't belong to this era.


Especially when people are telling you youre the best they seen, with his money? It's insane he's still around.

I honestly thought he retired after Hatton. He got the Oscar fight that he chased, he beat Hatton, was P4P#1 - What else was there? I'm a flomo to the core but only because I appreciate what I watched since he and I were both kids.


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## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

Ray knows that down the road after a few years, he will be the one remembered for fighting all the greats and Floyd will not. It means a lot to fight Duran,Hearns,Benitez,Hagler since those guys have great legacies also. Floyd lacks that, and in 20 years will people even think Floyd was as good as Ray? No. I think the problem is that Floyd has to fight Manny and Bradley if Bradley become elite soon (if he beats Manny in the rematch). Floyd needs more elites on his resume. That is what separates Floyd from Leonard or Hearns or Duran or Delahoya. Lack of great wins over prime elites. No one really thinks Floyd beat the real Shane or Oscar.


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## Kid Generic Alias (Oct 29, 2013)

Mayweather's career over the last decade has been all smokes and mirrors. He had a really good run against some good opponents at 130, beat a very good fighter in Castillo (arguably lost the first fight - "May would skewl Chavez doe") and has been ultra selective regarding his opposition ever since. Moved up to 140 and specifically targeted the absolute weakest title holder, moved up to another weight class and avoided Margarito and Cotto when the demand was high, and has played an instrumental role in preventing the biggest fight of the last two decades from taking place. The perfect opportunity to both establish himself as the greatest of his era and pick up a record purse in the process.......and he fucking balks at it.



Mayweather is a cancer to this sport and has caused immeasurable damage to it. Him announcing his retirement would be far greater, more welcoming news than him fighting Pacquiao at this point.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah, he's just a default exception to everything. :lol:
> 
> How? He wasn't part of a drainer era. He was a true 147/154 lb fighter while competing there. Unlike most of the pigs today who'd he'd still destroy easily.


Tommy's problem was skinny legs which he needed to make the weights where he had that ferocious KO power.Skinny legs and a large distance between your chin and your toes will always mean problems.That's why he was a freak of nature but he was never going to have the same power as he filled out and went up the weights.
Love Tommy but still think McCallum beats him at 154 and 160.
Just my opinion.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Tommy's problem was skinny legs which he needed to make the weights where he had that ferocious KO power.Skinny legs and a large distance between your chin and your toes will always mean problems.That's why he was a freak of nature but he was never going to have the same power as he filled out and went up the weights.
> Love Tommy but still think McCallum beats him at 154 and 160.
> Just my opinion.


Not read all the comments.Too many of them.But this one is good.However,I do remember Hearns knocking Denis Andries down a few times,no easy feat.I agree about McCallum,who I always call the modern Sugar Ray Robinson.Avoided,underrated,went through the weights unlike SRR.Before anybody jumps in,I am NOT saying he was better.Regarding Floyd:Unlikeable man from an unlikeable family.But the best boxer Ive ever seen with the possible exception of Roy Jones.Just my opinion.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Boxfan said:


> Not read all the comments.Too many of them.But this one is good.However,I do remember Hearns knocking Denis Andries down a few times,no easy feat.I agree about McCallum,who I always call the modern Sugar Ray Robinson.Avoided,underrated,went through the weights unlike SRR.Before anybody jumps in,I am NOT saying he was better.Regarding Floyd:Unlikeable man from an unlikeable family.But the best boxer Ive ever seen with the possible exception of Roy Jones.Just my opinion.


I watched that Andries fight on TV when it happened.I'm sure Dennis was down 10 times.It was one of the bravest performances I'd ever seen and Tommy was superb.
Just saying that it was natural that Tommy wouldn't have the same power for the most part as he went up,and I'm fairly sure his record shows that.
Big Hearns fan so don't want to give the wrong impression.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> I watched that Andries fight on TV when it happened.I'm sure Dennis was down 10 times.It was one of the bravest performances I'd ever seen and Tommy was superb.
> Just saying that it was natural that Tommy wouldn't have the same power for the most part as he went up,and I'm fairly sure his record shows that.
> Big Hearns fan so don't want to give the wrong impression.


No you didn't mate.As I say,I was interested as to what you'd got to say,as ever.These men were all exceptional.Im sure you'd agree that Mike was underrated.What an era for around middleweight,and we had some good ones also.Regarding Mayweather,I thought Hattons showing against him was really good,and it shows us how good Ricky was at his best.Looking at who his 2 losses were to and Collazos last fight should tell him what a terrific career he had.


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## Boxfan (Jul 26, 2013)

PS.Forgot his 3rd loss.But I reckon the man who beat Collazo wouldn't have.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Mayweather's career over the last decade has been all smokes and mirrors. He had a really good run against some good opponents at 130, beat a very good fighter in Castillo (arguably lost the first fight - "May would skewl Chavez doe") and has been ultra selective regarding his opposition ever since. Moved up to 140 and specifically targeted the absolute weakest title holder, moved up to another weight class and avoided Margarito and Cotto when the demand was high, and has played an instrumental role in preventing the biggest fight of the last two decades from taking place. The perfect opportunity to both establish himself as the greatest of his era and pick up a record purse in the process.......and he fucking balks at it.
> 
> Mayweather is a cancer to this sport and has caused immeasurable damage to it. Him announcing his retirement would be far greater, more welcoming news than him fighting Pacquiao at this point.


:rofl You should post more often.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Boxfan said:


> No you didn't mate.As I say,I was interested as to what you'd got to say,as ever.These men were all exceptional.Im sure you'd agree that Mike was underrated.What an era for around middleweight,and we had some good ones also.Regarding Mayweather,I thought Hattons showing against him was really good,and it shows us how good Ricky was at his best.Looking at who his 2 losses were to and Collazos last fight should tell him what a terrific career he had.


I think with maybe Smoger in there,Ricky rattles Floyd much much more,but even though I'm a degenerate gambler and couldn't resist the 3/1 on Ricky, I knew it was about levels and the weigh in told me Hatton just wasn't right.Think he did a better than he gets credit for though.That's the sort of fight is the type I'd like to see Floyd in.
And yeah mate,Mike is criminally underrated.
Ask @Hands of Iron


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Mayweather's career over the last decade has been all smokes and mirrors. He had a really good run against some good opponents at 130, beat a very good fighter in Castillo (arguably lost the first fight - "May would skewl Chavez doe") and has been ultra selective regarding his opposition ever since. Moved up to 140 and specifically targeted the absolute weakest title holder, moved up to another weight class and avoided Margarito and Cotto when the demand was high, and has played an instrumental role in preventing the biggest fight of the last two decades from taking place. The perfect opportunity to both establish himself as the greatest of his era and pick up a record purse in the process.......and he fucking balks at it.
> 
> Mayweather is a cancer to this sport and has caused immeasurable damage to it. Him announcing his retirement would be far greater, more welcoming news than him fighting Pacquiao at this point.











Yeah boxing was better when it was the promoters raping fighters, heaven forbid a boxer make the money he is worth atsch


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I watched that Andries fight on TV when it happened.I'm sure Dennis was down 10 times.It was one of the bravest performances I'd ever seen and Tommy was superb.
> Just saying that it was natural that Tommy wouldn't have the same power for the most part as he went up,and I'm fairly sure his record shows that.
> Big Hearns fan so don't want to give the wrong impression.


I don't think what you're saying could be construed as negative at all, really. I think Leonard could've beaten both at 154. As far as the McCallum/Hearns situation, I blame that on Steward really. He was the one pulling moves first by swindling Mike out of his shot at Duran by bringing Tommy to the table where Robertoe (and Himself) stood to pocket more coin. There wasn't a very big window for a fight between them but Hearns did appear back at 154 when Mike had already established himself as a force.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Great Thread.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I don't think what you're saying could be construed as negative at all, really. I think Leonard could've beaten both at 154. As far as the McCallum/Hearns situation, I blame that on Steward really. He was the one pulling moves first by swindling Mike out of his shot at Duran by bringing Tommy to the table where Robertoe (and Himself) stood to pocket more coin. There wasn't a very big window for a fight between them but Hearns did appear back at 154 when Mike had already established himself as a force.


Pick a winner and why? (Assuming it had happened)


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Pick a winner and why? (Assuming it had happened)


It's terribly difficult man. McCallum was adept at fighting from any range and though he possessed a terrific jab himself I don't - nor do I think anybody - feels he could get the better of things on the outside. He'd need to start reasonably quicker than normal, get inside of Hearns left and goto work on his lesser gas tank (body), keeping the fight no further out than mid-range as often as possible. Hearns was considerably faster, but McCallum's got quite a bit where punch variation and accurate countering is concerned. To say nothing of the idea that I can't see him getting stopped. It's an easier task I think circa '86 to take him out when the fight was most feasible but still an incredibly tough challenge. You thinking he makes "EZ work" of wiping him our or landing a Curry-esque bomb?


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## Iron Chin (Jul 31, 2013)

The fact that people have to make up an entirely different set of criteria to "prove" Mayweather isn't the greatest of this era, effectively demonstrates that he is clearly the greatest of the era.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's terribly difficult man. McCallum was adept at fighting from any range and though he possessed a terrific jab himself I don't - nor do I think anybody - feels he could get the better of things on the outside. He'd need to start reasonably quicker than normal, get inside of Hearns left and goto work on his lesser gas tank (body), keeping the fight no further out than mid-range as often as possible. Hearns was considerably faster, but McCallum's got quite a bit where punch variation and accurate countering is concerned. To say nothing of the idea that I can't see him getting stopped. It's an easier task I think circa '86 to take him out when the fight was most feasible but still an incredibly tough challenge. You thinking he makes "EZ work" of wiping him our or landing a Curry-esque bomb?


I'm thinking Mike starts slow (no shit Sherlock!) but he has the head movement to start dealing with Tommy's jab around the fifth or sixth allowing him inside and away from the right hand(which I think he could take anyway) and as you said,once you take the distance from Tommy you're getting into Snatching territory.McCallum starts clawing back rounds and Tommy decides to start getting on his bike for a round or two to slow McCallum's march to the inside.
The result of that is a fatigued Tommy going into the CR's and then....

Donald Sutherland!


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I'm thinking Mike starts slow (no shit Sherlock!) but he has the head movement to start dealing with Tommy's jab around the fifth or sixth allowing him inside and away from the right hand(which I think he could take anyway) and as you said,once you take the distance from Tommy you're getting into Snatching territory.McCallum starts clawing back rounds and Tommy decides to start getting on his bike for a round or two to slow McCallum's march to the inside.
> The result of that is a fatigued Tommy going into the CR's and then....
> 
> Donald Sutherland!


It's such an ill fight -- and I think McCallum could pull the same stunt on '82-'84 Hearns, I'm just mindful of his considerable abilities and it really is a 50-50 type of deal. I think more would probably lean on a Hearns decision (such is the legend he's cultivated). McCallum could take the right hand, but he'd make him miss a fair share as well. His upper body movement was consistent, far from the easiest guy to tattoo with more than one shot at a time. He was just a very technical ilk of a boxer-puncher-- nothing too exceptional where physical gifts were concerned and certainly not flashy, but the type of guy with the skill, stamina and chin to give almost anybody in his weight range hell. Exceptional movement (and speed) always gonna be a hard time for him though.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's such an ill fight -- and I think McCallum could pull the same stunt on '82-'84 Hearns, I'm just mindful of his considerable abilities and it really is a 50-50 type of deal. I think more would probably lean on a Hearns decision (such is the legend he's cultivated). McCallum could take the right hand, but he'd make him miss a fair share as well. His upper body movement was consistent, far from the easiest guy to tattoo with more than one shot at a time. He was just a very technical ilk of a boxer-puncher-- nothing too exceptional where physical gifts were concerned and certainly not flashy, but the type of guy with the skill, stamina and chin to give almost anybody in his weight range hell. Exceptional movement (and speed) always gonna be a hard time for him though.


It's very rarely mentioned here, but Tommy was supposed to fight Hagler a year odds before it happened and pulled out with ( I think) a thumb injury(although Hagler taunted him by saying it was his pinkie,and most people would cut that off for a payday like that)
I think Tommy beat Geraldo and Hagler beat The Caveman and the fight was signed for 82 twice before being cancelled.
I wonder how the boxing landscape would have looked if that fight had happened in '82.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Burn in hell Leonard! Fucking backstabber!


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> SRL is extremely humble and honest. About catching Duran at the right time. About what his brother said to him and that SRL as a fighter can ko Floyd but but in reality he probably wouldn't win.


He is just comfortable in his own skin. Unlike FMJ and more so Floyd "always a chip on his shoulder" Mayweather SR, both come off at insecure and demanding attention. Ray Leonard >>>>>>entire Mayweather clan.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

I hate how SRL craps on his own W against Duran


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I hate how SRL craps on his own W against Duran


Que?
I was under the impression that he felt he was denied the credit he deserved just because Roberto wasn't in the mood that night.
Some people talk like Duran deserves sympathy for being fat and lazy after the greatest victory of his career.
Poor Cholo.That bad Ray picked on him when he was vulnerable.:rolleyes


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Que?
> I was under the impression that he felt he was denied the credit he deserved just because Roberto wasn't in the mood that night.
> Some people talk like Duran deserves sympathy for being fat and lazy after the greatest victory of his career.
> *Poor Cholo.That bad Ray picked on him when he was vulnerable.*:rolleyes


:lol: I know what you mean. Just would've liked Ray to big up himself a bit more


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :lol: I know what you mean. Just would've liked Ray to big up himself a bit more


I hate how Duran points to "stomach cramps" as the reason he lost and quit. That looks fucking awful beyond comprehension and isn't even the truth... Unless he rescinded on that stance in the latest recollection of the events. I haven't bothered watching the 30 for 30 documentary.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I hate how Duran points to "stomach cramps" as the reason he lost and quit. That looks fucking awful beyond comprehension and isn't even the truth... Unless he rescinded on that stance in the latest recollection of the events. I haven't bothered watching the 30 for 30 documentary.


Sorry buddy.He's still steadfastly sticking to the story.
Sure there's that infamous "hot coffee" in there too.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I hate how SRL craps on his own W against Duran


and his D against Hearns too!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Sorry buddy.He's still steadfastly sticking to the story.
> Sure there's that infamous "hot coffee" in there too.


Some absolute nonsense Freddie Brown concocted immediately afterwards, one of several different excuses given on the night.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Some absolute nonsense Freddie Brown concocted immediately afterwards, one of several different excuses given on the night.


Ray Arcel's widow makes it clear in the film that he thought the excuses were bullshit and he never forgave Cholo.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

If the stomach cramps were actually real though, it would make it incredibly difficult to fight. 

Nevertheless, it was sheer bullshit.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Sorry buddy.He's still steadfastly sticking to the story.
> Sure there's that infamous "hot coffee" in there too.


Jesus Christ, Mike Trainer got old over the last decade. I'm pretty sure he was featured on the "Beyond The Glory" SRL edition and they look like two different people.

There's a good handful of people on this thing talking nonsense though, mostly Farhood.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Christie Brinkley not so much. Wow :rofl :blood


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Jesus Christ, Mike Trainer got old over the last decade. I'm pretty sure he was featured on the "Beyond The Glory" SRL edition and they look like two different people.
> 
> There's a good handful of people on this thing talking nonsense though, mostly Farhood.


Mike may look old,but Ray looks younger than Marquez!:lol:
I'll never forget that wonderful post.You know the one I mean.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

It seems that Ray has been more affected with the 'No Mas' win over Duran over the years, making a documentary. Duran looked like he didn't give AF. :lol:


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


> It seems that Ray has been more affected with the 'No Mas' win over Duran over the years, making a documentary. Duran looked like he didn't give AF. :lol:


I think SRL may have a bit of restlessness there because Duran is considered a greater fighter + Duran probably felt legitimately that he was not in good condition for the rematch thus wouldn't hold it against himself if he did end up losing as a result.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> It's very rarely mentioned here, but Tommy was supposed to fight Hagler a year odds before it happened and pulled out with ( I think) a thumb injury(although Hagler taunted him by saying it was his pinkie,and most people would cut that off for a payday like that)
> I think Tommy beat Geraldo and Hagler beat The Caveman and the fight was signed for 82 twice before being cancelled.
> I wonder how the boxing landscape would have looked if that fight had happened in '82.


Yeah, I've seen the interviews on that stuff. They mention it here, immediately:






As far as McCallum/Hearns, can you imagine the edge Mike would have on him preparing for and going into a bout with the Kronk's premier fighter? He had a distaste for all of them (and got a few in the ring) after Emmanuel Steward sold him out.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Most certainly done and recorded prior:


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Fuck it, I can't stand when people say Floyd is TBE. A new Elie video here. 
This black dude is a pussy. He starts off by saying SRL beats Floyd, but later says he doesn't know if SRL beats Floyd, because of peer pressure. 
I'm not going to open ESNEWS videos which are conversational B.S anymore, even boxers themselves don't know shit about boxing. Seckbach is a human troll.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> I think SRL may have a bit of restlessness there because Duran is considered a greater fighter + Duran probably felt legitimately that he was not in good condition for the rematch thus wouldn't hold it against himself if he did end up losing as a result.


Yeah, SRL says a few times it bothered him a good bit that the headlines were: "Duran Quits!!" ... as opposed to "Ray Wins!!!" kind of deal

he has a point :conf


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> Yeah, SRL says a few times it bothered him a good bit that the headlines were: "Duran Quits!!" ... as opposed to "Ray Wins!!!" kind of deal
> 
> he has a point :conf


First world problems.


----------



## Kid Generic Alias (Oct 29, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> On the really real though Lester, it'd be understandable if Burley brought him nothing financially. He turned down a career high payday.


Do you have a source for him turning this offer down? I recall coming across an old newpaper article where a promoter put up an offer for the fight, but nothing beyond that.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I hate how SRL craps on his own W against Duran


Yeah i never understood why boxers downplay their opponents/talk about trying to take advantage, don't they know there are a lot of haters that will use to discredit them?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Fuck it, I can't stand when people say Floyd is TBE. A new Elie video here.
> This black dude is a pussy. He starts off by saying SRL beats Floyd, but later says he doesn't know if SRL beats Floyd, because of peer pressure.
> I'm not going to open ESNEWS videos which are conversational B.S anymore, even boxers themselves don't know shit about boxing. Seckbach is a human troll.


Can't stand? Most people on here doesn't even box. Floyd does shit that no boxers in history can do. His defense, offense are insanely hard to pull off and longevity is extremely hard to accomplish but people don't want to factor that in.

People can say resume isn't as good as SRL but that's only ONE angle.
Both fought champions, both fought bigger guys, both fought their rivals. Just bc the fab fours were all kobe bryants fighting each other vs Floyd who is Michael Jordon and have no equal doesn't mean he fought bums.

People tend to forget that the Fab 4 have struggled against lessor guys but yet they are SOOOOO Much better than Floyd bc they fought each other? bullshit.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Floyd does shit that no boxers in history can do.


Like what?



tliang1000 said:


> His defense, offense are insanely hard to pull off and longevity is extremely hard to accomplish but people don't want to factor that in.


Nobody in this thread has denied that his longevity is commendable.



tliang1000 said:


> People can say resume isn't as good as SRL but that's only ONE angle.


And the most important. Who you beat make up your accomplishments.



tliang1000 said:


> Both fought champions, both fought bigger guys, both fought their rivals. Just bc the fab fours were all kobe bryants fighting each other vs Floyd who is Michael Jordon and have no equal doesn't mean he fought bums.


Nobody is saying he fought bums, just that his opposition wasn't as good, that his best wins aren't as great, as Leonard's.



tliang1000 said:


> People tend to forget that the Fab 4 have struggled against lessor guys but yet they are SOOOOO Much better than Floyd bc they fought each other? bullshit.


Struggling against a lesser guy doesn't subtract from your greatness, especially when you beat greater fighters down the line.

Yet again you've used smoke and mirrors to claim Floyd is some kind of unfair victim when it comes to ranking, and all you do is put words in people's mouths. "People act like he only fought bums"-yet nobody in this thread denies he's a definite ATG. Leonard simply has the better resume, and deserves to be ranked higher. You've made no viable counter-argument to this so just accept it and move on.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Can't stand? Most people on here doesn't even box. Floyd does shit that no boxers in history can do. His defense, offense are insanely hard to pull off and longevity is extremely hard to accomplish but people don't want to factor that in.
> 
> People can say resume isn't as good as SRL but that's only ONE angle.
> Both fought champions, both fought bigger guys, both fought their rivals. Just bc the fab fours were all kobe bryants fighting each other vs Floyd who is Michael Jordon and have no equal doesn't mean he fought bums.
> ...


Floyd = TBE. :bluesuit:hammer:moneybama


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Like what?
> 
> Nobody in this thread has denied that his longevity is commendable.
> 
> ...


Yeah i put words in people mouths. I make that part up ALL BY MYSELF. No one ever said Floyd fought bums.... quit trying to sound righteous ya poser. You act like your words is the absolute truth.

Who else fought a string of champions at that level while moving up in weight without a loss? undefeated guys, p4p guys, guys coming off big wins.

You would be surprised if you dive in deep into the fab 4 people would find that their opponents are no different and wouldn't even be surprise to be worse than Floyd's opponents. I don't even need to dissect it to make an educate bet that it would look similar. IF PEOPLE REALLY WANT TO GO THERE I WILL DEDICATE A DAY TO GO INTO DETAIL.

To me Hagler and Hearns didn't do anything more special than some of the guys that Floyd has fought. Hearns got size. Hagler beat up guys his size. Is Hearns and Hagler more impressive than Bhop(not saying FLoyd fought him), Oscar, Shane, Tito, JMM type? That is up for debate that we will never known and can't be proven.

I say this time and time again. 
people exaggerate so damn much about one elite fighter over another but when you watch them... they look ORDINARY. If you guys think i am bullshitting put up the fights and explain to me what they are doing different or pulling off moves that other boxers can't do.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Show me that their style can't be replicate. I challenge anyone or all in this room who believes that they are boxing in a much higher level. Floyd vs Fab4. and all aspect of fighting offense to defense. and their opponents. On paper and on video. 

I'm sick of this bible fighting talk. Just take in the bull without question. Half of the people just repeat what they have heard and never question.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

When I start pitting accomplishments and their opponents resumes to see how "great" the fab 4 opponents vs Floyd's opponents. I don't want to hear excuses of all of them are just better and blah blah blah. Resume on paper and compare videos. *Hand speed, defense, footwork and offense and defense approach and etc.*

I'm tired of this non-sense and how ignorant people are acting on here. Who don't factor in hype, don't factor in popularity, don't factor in the boxing era where boxing in mainstream.
when this happen i don't want to hear excuses.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Its because people are afraid to offend floyd lol. After floyd talked all kind of shit about ellie, ellie changed up his tone an started overly dick riding floyd


The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Fuck it, I can't stand when people say Floyd is TBE. A new Elie video here.
> This black dude is a pussy. He starts off by saying SRL beats Floyd, but later says he doesn't know if SRL beats Floyd, because of peer pressure.
> I'm not going to open ESNEWS videos which are conversational B.S anymore, even boxers themselves don't know shit about boxing. Seckbach is a human troll.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah i put words in people mouths. I make that part up ALL BY MYSELF. No one ever said Floyd fought bums.... quit trying to sound righteous ya poser. You act like your words is the absolute truth.


Nobody in _this_ thread. So why bring it up? Why bring up arguments against imaginary haters not present, when other people are here in the thread discussing the claims you put forth?



tliang1000 said:


> Who else fought a string of champions at that level while moving up in weight without a loss? undefeated guys, p4p guys, guys coming off big wins..


You think Floyd is the only person to beat champions and P4P guys consecutively?

Well, here's one example:



Hands of Iron said:


> Who tops this run in such a short window?
> _*Sep 1978: Floyd Mayweather Sr (15-1) W-TKO10
> Oct 1978: Randy Shields (31-4) W-UD10*
> Dec 1978: Armando Muniz (44-13) W-RTD6
> ...


And you can't hold Leonard losing to Duran against him when comparing him to Floyd, because Floyd didn't fight anyone NEAR the skill and accomplishments of Duran.



tliang1000 said:


> You would be surprised if you dive in deep into the fab 4 people would find that their opponents are no different and wouldn't even be surprise to be worse than Floyd's opponents.


Except you didn't dive deeper. You don't know shit about it. That's why your arguments are vague and aren't based in fact, because you simply don't know the era. This is why you embarrassed yourself trying to shit on Cervantes, and ATG, to shit on Benitez, another ATG.



tliang1000 said:


> I don't even need to dissect it to make an educate bet that it would look similar. IF PEOPLE REALLY WANT TO GO THERE I WILL DEDICATE A DAY TO GO INTO DETAIL.


So what you're really saying is that, you don't actually know the facts which would validate your opinion, you just have the opinion and "bet" you could prove it. That confirms your bias completely. Facts? Who needs em, you'll find them later after you already formed your opinion.



tliang1000 said:


> To me Hagler and Hearns didn't do anything more special than some of the guys that Floyd has fought.


Yeah? What opponent on Floyd's resume has wins that compare with Hearns and Hagler's best wins?

Hearns has Benitez, and a past-it but still capable Duran. He also won the lightheavyweight title from Virgil Hill (starting from welterweight, that's insane, weight jumps at the higher weights are much more difficult than at the lower weights.)

Hagler has Hearns himself, Duran, holds the record for Middleweight title defenses, and arguably beat Leonard.

Go on, tell me. I'll wait.



tliang1000 said:


> Hearns got size. Hagler beat up guys his size. Is Hearns and Hagler more impressive than Bhop(not saying FLoyd fought him), Oscar, Shane, Tito, JMM type? That is up for debate that we will never known and can't be proven.


It's visible on film and given each man's resume. They have single wins that are better than any of those fighters' single greatest wins, and even where they don't, they established dominance in a way those fighters never did. History is our evidence. H2H is one thing, but greatness, accomplishment, while subjective, is not unknowable and intangible. It's within our reach.



tliang1000 said:


> I say this time and time again.
> people exaggerate so damn much about one elite fighter over another but when you watch them... they look ORDINARY. If you guys think i am bullshitting put up the fights and explain to me what they are doing different or pulling off moves that other boxers can't do.


So who looks ordinary out of the Fab 4? You think anyone of them would look "ordinary" against a faded Oscar, Hatton, Castillo, Corrales, or Cotto? If so, you need your eyes checked. Jacking off to pull counters ain't good for your health.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

We dont even half to go all the way back to ray leonard for a fighter around floyds weight that was better. Pernell did things that floyd couldnt, and would never attempt to do, and against better fighters


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Do you have a source for him turning this offer down? I recall coming across an old newpaper article where a promoter put up an offer for the fight, but nothing beyond that.


It's located in a vault at Nakatomi Plaza... I don't have the codes. 

Springs Toledo or McGrain perhaps.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Well here's one example


I lay that stuff out like that because 0's and P4P is all the rage with today's boxing scene. Can tell you for a fact that Duran, Hearns and Hagler respectively were #1 P4P at the time according to polls by the only boxing publication (KO Mag) putting out such rankings. @Lester1583 also has one from 1978 in which both Benitez and Palomino were within the top ten Prior to Benitez relieving him of his title so it's an educated guess to assume he was Top 5 by the time Leonard fought him for the title. Benitez, Kalule and Hagler (well as Dooran) were the legit RING/Lineal Champs of those divisions but shit I mean really just watch the film FFS... It's such an array of diverse, elite talents and operators and he has the best win anybody had against pretty much all of them. There's few in history that can match the total package of SRL's top five, both in the ring or on paper.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogo you saw all those articles Printed At The Time. They aren't rated in hindsight or popularity bias.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

God please deliver me from such rubbish. Tiliang's arguments are jokes. 

This is the same guy that says Cotto is a bigger 'killer' than Sandy Saddler. 

Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benitez, Kalule. The first 4 being masters in their styles and monsters H2H. 
Floyd on the other hand has never beat someone as good. Have a think about this...it took a long time for Floyd to discover Judah and past prime DLH. These guys are much, much better than Judah and past prime DLH and have more aspects to their game, if Floyd's main ability comes from adjusting to his opponent, then he has a hell of a lot to do. 

What is the use of arguing with you tiliang if you can't visibly see how good these guys are? Coupled with your weird views, the reason why no ones sat down to answer all your points in detail because it serves as nothing more than a time wasting activity which bares no fruits.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> When I start pitting accomplishments and their opponents resumes to see how "great" the fab 4 opponents vs Floyd's opponents. I don't want to hear excuses of all of them are just better and blah blah blah. Resume on paper and compare videos. *Hand speed, defense, footwork and offense and defense approach and etc.
> 
> I'm tired of this non-sense and how ignorant people are acting on here. Who don't factor in hype, don't factor in popularity, don't factor in the boxing era where boxing in mainstream.
> when this happen i don't want to hear excuses.*


*

There's plenty of other forums if you're so sick of us.
Toodle pip.I'm sure there won't be many tears shed in the wake of your departure.*


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's located in a vault at Nakatomi Plaza... I don't have the codes.
> 
> Springs Toledo or McGrain perhaps.


I'm going to check that sparring session out shortly.Thanks for posting it.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Kid Generic Alias said:


> Do you have a source for him turning this offer down? I recall coming across an old newpaper article where a promoter put up an offer for the fight, but nothing beyond that.





Hands of Iron said:


> It's located in a vault at Nakatomi Plaza... I don't have the codes.
> Springs Toledo or McGrain perhaps.


1945:



> Nobody to fight.
> 
> But if Ray (Sugar) Robinson, Jake LaMotta, Jose Basora, Rocky Graziano or any of the other boys would like to mix it up with him here or in New York Burley is available.
> As for Robinson, "the uncrowned welterweight king", Charley would meet him for nothing just to get the chance.
> ...


http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...tsaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wUwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1683,5618807


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Fuck it, I can't stand when people say Floyd is TBE. A new Elie video here.
> This black dude is a pussy. He starts off by saying SRL beats Floyd, but later says he doesn't know if SRL beats Floyd, because of peer pressure.
> I'm not going to open ESNEWS videos which are conversational B.S anymore, even boxers themselves don't know shit about boxing. Seckbach is a human troll.


Seckbach is clown and a Floyd nuthugger. I want to punch him in the face every time he say's ''but Floyd adjusts'' when talking about a Floyd in a fantasy match up.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Nobody in _this_ thread. So why bring it up? Why bring up arguments against imaginary haters not present, when other people are here in the thread discussing the claims you put forth?
> 
> You think Floyd is the only person to beat champions and P4P guys consecutively?
> 
> ...


LMAO. First of BOGO. SRL didn't achieved what Floyd was able to do which is to go on 18 years without a loss NOW DID HE?* So you failed.*
Top 10 contenders/champion pasting records LOL what the fuck does this look like????


 2013-09-14Saul Alvarez*42*-*0*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWMD1212  referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 116-112 | judge: C.J. Ross 114-114 | judge: Craig Metcalfe 117-111 
WBC light middleweight title (supervisor: Mauricio Sulaiman)
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Gilberto Jesus Mendoza) 2013-05-04Robert Guerrero*31*-*1*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Robert Byrd | judge: Jerry Roth 117-111 | judge: Duane Ford 117-111 | judge: Julie Lederman 117-111 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman) 2012-05-05Miguel Cotto*37*-*2*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-111 | judge: Dave Moretti 117-111 
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Aurelio Fiengo)
vacant WBC Diamond light middleweight title 2011-09-17Victor Ortiz*29*-*2*-*2*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWKO412 time: 2:59 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Jerry Roth | judge: Adalaide Byrd | judge: Glenn Trowbridge 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman)
Ortiz penalized 1 point in rd 4 for head-butt. Ortiz down rd 4. 2010-05-01Shane Mosley*46*-*5*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 119-109 | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Adalaide Byrd 119-109 2009-09-19Juan Manuel Marquez*50*-*4*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Burt A. Clements 120-107 | judge: Dave Moretti 119-108 | judge: Bill Lerch 118-109 
Marquez down once in 2nd round 2007-12-08Ricky Hatton*43*-*0*-*0*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO1012 time: 1:35 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Paul Smith 88-82 | judge: Dave Moretti 89-81 | judge: Burt A. Clements 89-81 
WBC welterweight title 2007-05-05Oscar De La Hoya*38*-*4*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWSD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Jerry Roth 115-113 | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 113-115 
WBC light middleweight title 2006-11-04Carlos Manuel Baldomir*43*-*9*-*6*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 120-108 | judge: John Keane 120-108 | judge: Paul Smith 118-110 
WBC welterweight title
International Boxing Organization welterweight title
International Boxing Association welterweight title 2006-04-08Zab Judah*34*-*3*-*0*

Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212

Second of all. I know SRL got a great run of wins and great resume but that WASN'T my point was it you LAZY EYED prick. *My whole point was there those guys didn't do anything differently than what Floyd has done as well.*

Third of all, I am not a pretender like you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how boxing work and how it has ALWAYS work. Which is for fighters to take on easy fights when you start out and step up from there but you stupid ass tend to think otherwise. And i am still challenging anyone to prove otherwise.

As last of all. Anyone being vague is you. Saying that they are just better and offered no prove. But guess what? You can't prove that they are just better due to different era, different opponents, and different weight class.

At least I have grounds to prove my argument that those champions didn't do anything different than Floyd.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

To the people who want to say that the fab 4 are just simply better fighters better, just make sure you man up and stand your ground when I dig deeper exposing you dumbasses. Especially you Bogo. Mr. Duran is more skilled lazy eyed retard. 

Only in a forum by bias idiots where you will find talks about Floyd not belong with the fab4/classic.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Does it take a rocket scientist to type "how boxing works" and "how it has always workED"?

You're whole OP was completely misleading.

Don't you think Floyd is OK with people thinking SRL is better than him?

And what would Ray or Floyd be able to do if either of them weren't alright with people thinking that?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Does it take a rocket scientist to type "how boxing works" and "how it has always workED"?
> 
> You're whole OP was completely misleading.
> 
> ...


My OP is the same as with what i have been trying to say this whole thread which is they are no different from Floyd. Even SRL squash the talent pool talk bc that is flat out ridiculous bc that is troll talk. Trolls like bogo who flat out thinks there is a different breed of fighters back in the day and that popularity and hype has no effect in bias.

I'm not the close minded twat on here, just remember that.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Tliang is still copying and pasting the entire Boxrec website? For fuck's sake.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I have already half way proved that Fab 4 were no different. Look at the clip of Duran vs Dejesus. Tell me he doesn't look ordinary but hey if you listen to how people describe him as Godlike fighter on here. Give me a break.

And Bogo suggesting anyone who places Floyd in the top 3 is a fool and then i blasted his ass with videos of bhop saying that Floyd is top 3. LMAO. Bhop have way more creditability than that stupid poser. *PERIOD*


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Tliang is still copying and pasting the entire Boxrec website? For fuck's sake.


that is what you want to comment on? Stupid troll

what else is there to say about u? and be prepare bc you will see a lot more in the near future.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm going to expose all the wannabe know it alls on here. So pick where you stand. 

Comment all you want about the FAB4 and Floyd.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I have already half way proved that Fab 4 were no different. Look at the clip of Duran vs Dejesus. Tell me he doesn't look ordinary but hey if you listen to how people describe him as Godlike fighter on here. Give me a break.
> 
> And Bogo suggesting anyone who places Floyd in the top 3 is a fool and then i blasted his ass with videos of bhop saying that Floyd is top 3. LMAO. Bhop have way more creditability than that stupid poser. *PERIOD*


Tiang said "Period" :lol:


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I have already half way proved that Fab 4 were no different. Look at the clip of Duran vs Dejesus. Tell me he doesn't look ordinary but hey if you listen to how people describe him as Godlike fighter on here. Give me a break.
> 
> And Bogo suggesting anyone who places Floyd in the top 3 is a fool and then i blasted his ass with videos of bhop saying that Floyd is top 3. LMAO. Bhop have way more creditability than that stupid poser. *PERIOD*


Watch Mayweather-Castillo 1 and 2 and try and tell me Floyd doesn't look ordinary. Boxers have poor performances. Duran avenged his loss to DeJesus x2.
Duran is all round more skilled than Mayweather and it's not even close.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Second of all. I know SRL got a great run of wins and great resume but that WASN'T my point was it you LAZY EYED prick. *My whole point was there those guys didn't do anything differently than what Floyd has done as well.*
> 
> Third of all, I am not a pretender like you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how boxing work and how it has ALWAYS work. Which is for fighters to take on easy fights when you start out and step up from there but you stupid ass tend to think otherwise. And i am still challenging anyone to prove otherwise.
> 
> ...


SRL and especially Floyd couldn't do this:


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

*Tampax!*


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

btw, Tiliang, how has Floyd managed to do what Duran has done? i.e intelligent pressure fighting?
One thing about SRL from the Benitez fight is that SRL really doesn't give much away and his versatility is gold. This is not what Floyd wants.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> SRL and especially Floyd couldn't do this:


You've obviously never seen Jeff Fenech. He did that in every fight. He also swung his arm around his back (no joke) to hit fighters on the sly.

Jung Koo Chang also did this on the regular.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> SRL and especially Floyd couldn't do this:


Trolling bastard. Vargas did it to Quartey every round :rofl


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

rossco said:


> Watch Mayweather-Castillo 1 and 2 and try and tell me Floyd doesn't look ordinary. Boxers have poor performances. Duran avenged his loss to DeJesus x2.
> Duran is all round more skilled than Mayweather and it's not even close.


Floyd struggled in Castillo 2? that is news to me.

Floyd was injured and fought with one arm and still won. Duran quit because he got a cramp. Great example bro. You showed me.
But but but Duran was a godlike fighter so was SRL.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> You've obviously never seen Jeff Fenech. He did that in every fight. He also swung his arm around his back (no joke) to hit fighters on the sly.
> 
> Jung Koo Chang also did this on the regular.


:yep












Spoiler



I haven't seen a single fight of Chang


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Trolling bastard. Vargas did it to Quartey every round :rofl


you wanna know something badass?

..Quartey's hair during that fight.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> you wanna know something badass?
> 
> ..Quartey's hair during that fight.


Oscar beat him blonde


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Oscar beat him blonde


:rofl I died.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> LMAO. First of BOGO. SRL didn't achieved what Floyd was able to do which is to go on 18 years without a loss NOW DID HE?


No, because he fought the much better fighters. And beat them.



tliang1000 said:


> * So you failed.*


Failed what? To demonstrate that Leonard's career wasn't identical to Floyd's? It was never my intention. I've simply challenged you claims that Floyd deserves to be ranked higher than Floyd, which you have yet to demonstrate in any respectable fashion.



tliang1000 said:


> Top 10 contenders/champion pasting records LOL what the fuck does this look like????


It looks like me answering your question when you asked who has faced such high opposition so consistently. Leonard faced the better opposition in a shorter time, and beat the better fighters. Again, you have yet to contest this. Lists of opponents don't prove worth, context does, which I've provided page after page. The listing of top P4P challenges is simply my answer to your challenge and your assertion that Leonard didn't face consistently great competition.



tliang1000 said:


> Second of all. I know SRL got a great run of wins and great resume but that WASN'T my point was it you LAZY EYED prick. *My whole point was there those guys didn't do anything differently than what Floyd has done as well.*


But I showed you why they're different. I told you, and you choose to ignore it. Floyd's best wins are a faded Oscar, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, a past-prime Cotto. Leonard's best wins are:

Tommy Hearns-undefeated welterweight monster who was the first to legitimately stop Roberto Duran (knocking him out cold), outboxed Wilfred Benitez over 15 rounds, and went on to win a light-heavyweight championship from Virgil Hill. Few in history match up well with such a complete boxer-puncher as Hearns.

Wilfred Benitez-youngest champion in boxing history, who beat ATG Antonio Cervantes, who beat Hall of Famers Esteban De Jesus and Nicolino Locche, had a long reign at junior middleweight, and Benitez also outboxed a past-it but still relevant Duran. Brilliant defensive fighter.

Marvin Hagler-has the highest KO ration among champions at Middleweight, knocked out ATG Hearns emphatically, outboxed a still capable ATG Duran. Never stopped, worked his way to the top the hard way.

Roberto Duran-incredibly long and successful lightweight career, beat Leonard himself once and handed him his first loss (probably the best single win in boxing history), went on to compete well with Hagler at 160 after knocking out Davey Moore, knocking out Iran Barkley (who upset Hearns), one of the most skilled fighters on film who blended his offense and defense seamlessly, fluidly, and destructively.

*Nobody on Floyd's record compares with respect to ability or resume.* You have yet to give me a feasible argument. "They're no different" isn't an argument, it's a conclusion.



tliang1000 said:


> Third of all, I am not a pretender like you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how boxing work and how it has ALWAYS work. Which is for fighters to take on easy fights when you start out and step up from there but you stupid ass tend to think otherwise. And i am still challenging anyone to prove otherwise.


Pretender? I'm simply a fan who uses facts to support his argument. Facts which you, actually, admitted you don't know. You've admitted you haven't explored the era, and have yet to "dive" into an evaluation. So your opinion has been formed _before_ you have the information necessary to make such an evaluation objectively. Good job.

What does this have to do with easy wins at the start of a career? How is that relevant? Leonard has the great wins. Period. Has nothing to do with soft touches to start with. Duran, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler, are all amazing wins. You have yet to prove how Floyd's are _better._



tliang1000 said:


> As last of all. Anyone being vague is you. Saying that they are just better and offered no prove. But guess what? You can't prove that they are just better due to different era, different opponents, and different weight class.


I'm proving that they're better based off of accomplishments, tiers of greatness, and the context of the wins. Being "different" isn't what makes them greater. Being greater is what makes them greater.



tliang1000 said:


> At least I have grounds to prove my argument that those champions didn't do anything different than Floyd.


Except we've all told you over and over how they're careers are more accomplished than Floyd. You just put your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala". What grounds? What are they? You haven't actually argued why. You just say it.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Floyd struggled in Castillo 2? that is news to me.
> 
> Floyd was injured and fought with one arm and still won. Duran quit because he got a cramp. Great example bro. You showed me.
> But but but Duran was a godlike fighter so was SRL.


Any excuses for the second Castillo fight? or vs old ODH. Your one of the biggest flomos iv'e ever encountered on the internet.
Yes, Duran is one of the more god like fighters. A stick on top 10 ATG.
I admire Mayweather he's a great fighter but he just hasn't got the tools to keep a Leonard or Duran off him because they wouldn't respect his power and they have the feet to get near him. They would lay all kinds of leather on him and wouldn't care about his shoulder roll. Floyds good enough to make it competitive and landing his usual well timed single shots but he just doesn't have the power or work rate to beat these kind of fighters. I shudder to think of the Brutal beating Hearns would dish out on Floyd. Stylistic nightmare for Floyd.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No, because he fought the much better fighters. And beat them.
> 
> Failed what? To demonstrate that Leonard's career wasn't identical to Floyd's? It was never my intention. I've simply challenged you claims that Floyd deserves to be ranked higher than Floyd, which you have yet to demonstrate in any respectable fashion.
> 
> ...


You contradict with no shame.
"answering my question" and you failed. And you basically admitted that I was right that no other boxer has done what Floyd did which 18 years against top opposition without a loss. SRL didn't do that. And now you want to say bc their record doesn't have to be identical.... meanwhile you whole argument on why Floyd is not on their level is by saying that he doesn't have Duran, SRL, Hearns, or Hagler on his record (an impossible request). *WELL NO SHIT he doesn't have them on his record bc they are not around*. And lets not forget that It was me who said that having those names are just ONE angle and now you come back saying they don't have to be identical. Man up and make up your mind. There are plenty of arguments that Floyd surpassed SRL/Fab4 outside of this forum and your group of Floyd critics.

Secondly you want to overate SRL fights against his rivals saying they were so and so meanwhile Floyd has also fought all those guys when they were on top so you are contradicting AGAIN. Oscar was a champ, Hatton, Cotto, Shane, Castillo and Corrales were all on top at the time Floyd beat them.
Signed the fight so quit making excuses.


----------



## mick557 (Jun 6, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You contradict with no shame.
> "answering my question" and you failed. And you basically admitted that I was right that no other boxer has done what Floyd did which 18 years against top opposition without a loss. SRL didn't do that. And now you want to say bc their record doesn't have to be identical.... meanwhile you whole argument on why Floyd is not on their level is by saying that he doesn't have Duran, SRL, Hearns, or Hagler on his record (an impossible request). *WELL NO SHIT he doesn't have them on his record bc they are not around*. And lets not forget that It was me who said that having those names are just ONE angle and now you come back saying they don't have to be identical. Man up and make up your mind. *There are plenty of arguments that Floyd surpassed SRL/Fab4 outside of this forum and your group of Floyd critics.
> *
> Secondly you want to overate SRL fights against his rivals saying they were so and so meanwhile Floyd has also fought all those guys when they were on top so you are contradicting AGAIN. Oscar was a champ, Hatton, Cotto, Shane, Castillo and Corrales were all on top at the time Floyd beat them.
> Signed the fight so quit making excuses.


I haven't read the whole thread but what argument are there?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)




----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

mick557 said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but what argument are there?


Bhop said it quite well on why and I agree with him.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


>


Haha Dejavu


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

@Flea Man
Copy and paste if it doesn't work here
LomaJoneschenko :yep


----------



## mick557 (Jun 6, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bhop said it quite well on why and I agree with him.


Hopkins logic seems kind of flawed. His argument is that Floyd has elevated himself so far above everyone else in his era that the quality of his opposition shouldn't be a factor in comparing him against fellow ATGs.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

mick557 said:


> Hopkins logic seems kind of flawed. His argument is that Floyd has elevated himself so far above everyone else in his era that the quality of his opposition shouldn't be a factor in comparing him against fellow ATGs.


Sometimes boxers don't know shit about boxin'


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> Sometimes boxers don't know shit about boxin'


This is true. I was arguing with Ricky Burns trainer Billy Nelson because he thinks Joe Calzaghe is the greatest British fighter of all time. Brandon Rios on a Seckbach video had to ask who the fighters were on a guy's Tshirt of the fab 4. 4 of the most famous boxers in the History of the sport and he couldn't recognise them atsch I't really is retarded to think Floyds top 3 so Hopkins as good as he is in the ring has very low level knowledge on boxing history or is biased.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

rossco said:


> This is true. I was arguing with Ricky Burns trainer Billy Nelson because he thinks Joe Calzaghe is the greatest British fighter of all time. Brandon Rios on a Seckbach video had to ask who the fighters were on a guy's Tshirt of the fab 4. 4 of the most famous boxers in the History of the sport and he couldn't recognise them atsch I't really is retarded to think Floyds top 3 so Hopkins as good as he is in the ring has very low level knowledge on boxing history or is biased.


:verysad 
These are truly shocking discoveries in this post. He's cashing in on Floyd, and I also think he has a bias because of his own style. 
You would have thought they'd be students of the history of the sport too. 
Dmitry Pirog is an example of what you can gain out of learning about fighters (although I'm not sure he learned about fighters from way back), but his style has incorporated many things of other boxers. If a trainer is quite ignorant then that's pretty scary.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> :yep
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice example 

Fenech was doing it a few years before though.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

One Body-Shot TKO, #TBE


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


> One Body-Shot TKO, #TBE


Which fight was that. That's a TBE mullet right there.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You contradict with no shame.
> "answering my question" and you failed.


No, your question was "who faced pound for pound #1 guys back to back like that", and I answered you. I showed you a string of opponents in a very condensed amount of time with names that are superior to the one's on Floyd's record.



tliang1000 said:


> And you basically admitted that I was right that no other boxer has done what Floyd did which 18 years against top opposition without a loss.


Ricardo Lopez retired undefeated with a 16-year career (which matches Floyd once you subtract the vacations)
Calzaghe retired undefeated with a 15 year career. 
Julio Cesar Chavez was 90-0 before his first official loss. 
Robinson won 91 straight fights after his first loss to LaMotta. 
Joe Louis held the heavyweight championship for 11 years and 7 months.

Here are a list of fighters who hold records for title defenses:










Just to put the numbers game in perspective, since that seems to be what you've resorted to in the absence of any arguments as to *how Floyd's resume is superior.* That 18 years is impressive, but it doesn't tell the story of who he beat.



tliang1000 said:


> SRL didn't do that.


No, instead he beat the better fighters. STILL you lack any argument as to why Floyd's resume is better. Floyd is undefeated and fought 18 years, nobody is disputing that. We're talking about who he beat, the quality of his opponents. That matters most. That defines greatness.



tliang1000 said:


> And now you want to say bc their record doesn't have to be identical.... meanwhile you whole argument on why Floyd is not on their level is by saying that he doesn't have Duran, SRL, Hearns, or Hagler on his record (an impossible request). *WELL NO SHIT he doesn't have them on his record bc they are not around*.


Really? Where did I say Floyd has to have beaten those specific fighters to be as great? What the fuck? How is that even feasible? Are you mentally impaired? Nowhere have I suggested that. It's not about the specific names, it's about the quality of those names. A few fighters have resumes which stack up, some 10-20 depending on who's list you look at. But it's not a whole lot and it's damn sure not Floyd's.



tliang1000 said:


> And lets not forget that It was me who said that having those names are just ONE angle and now you come back saying they don't have to be identical. Man up and make up your mind. There are plenty of arguments that Floyd surpassed SRL/Fab4 outside of this forum and your group of Floyd critics.


Names means resume you dumb fuck. Quality of opponents. Of course they're not going to be identical in terms of opponents fought, they're from different fucking eras. Wow you are incredibly stupid. I can't believe you think this is the argument.

Plenty of arguments? YOU HAVE YET TO NAME ONE :rofl



tliang1000 said:


> Secondly you want to overate SRL fights against his rivals saying they were so and so


How are they overrated? What about my posts is inaccurate? You don't know, because you don't know the fighters. You just love Floyd. You're making conclusions with your emotions, not with any semblance of a brain between your ears. Go on, point a factual inaccuracy or exaggeration.



tliang1000 said:


> meanwhile Floyd has also fought all those guys when they were on top so you are contradicting AGAIN.


First of all, a contradiction is when you hold two opposing views. There is no contradiction because I've never made blanket statements on the condition of Floyd's opponents when he fought them. Although being "on top" at a specific point doesn't mean you're historically great. Not every #1 contender in the sport is Muhammad Ali.



tliang1000 said:


> Oscar was a champ, Hatton, Cotto, Shane, Castillo and Corrales were all on top at the time Floyd beat them.


Duran was a champ coming off a win over Leonard himself. Leonard beat him twice. 
Hearns was prime and undefeated. 
Benitez was the youngest champion in history after beating an ATG. 
Hagler was a champion (and has the highest KO% at the weight).

If being a "champ" is the criteria then shit, Canelo must be an ATG too! Trout was champ! Try those on for size. Historic champions.

This is about the quality of opponents. Historical greatness. You cannot fathom that, or choose to ignore it because you know it doesn't work in your favor.

A faded De La Hoya is not a better fighter or win than an undefeated Benitez, Roberto Duran, undefeated Tommy Hearns, or Marvin Hagler. 
Cotto is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler.
Hatton is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler.
Corrales is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler. 
Castillo is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler.

If you have a counter-argument as to why, make it instead of running in circles.



tliang1000 said:


> Signed the fight so quit making excuses.


What? You're the only one here making excuses and avoiding the issue which you know nothing about clearly.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Duran was a champ coming off a win over Leonard himself. Leonard beat him twice.
> Hearns was prime and undefeated.
> Benitez was the youngest champion in history after beating an ATG.
> Hagler was a champion (and holds the record for title defenses at the weight).


Benitez was prime and undefeated as well. Monzon has the title defenses record (of the legit/lineal crown) by a couple over Hagler. Hagler is - despite all my clowning - a Top 5 ATG middleweight. What he was considered at the time was the best fighter in boxing, who hadn't dropped a decision in over a decade. The draw to Antuofermo was pretty poor, as was the loss to Watts. The loss to Monroe and draw with Seales a bit more legit, though he avenged all of them officially.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Benitez was prime and undefeated as well. Monzon has the title defenses record (of the legit/lineal crown) by a couple over Hagler. Hagler is - despite all my clowning - a Top 5 ATG middleweight. What he was considered at the time was the best fighter in boxing, who hadn't dropped a decision in over a decade. The draw to Antuofermo was pretty poor, as was the loss to Watts. The loss to Monroe and draw with Seales a bit more legit, though he avenged all of them officially.


Didn't Hopkins surpass Monzon actually? Did I make that up? I'm confused now. Hagler held it at one point though no?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Didn't Hopkins surpass Monzon actually? Did I make that up? I'm confused now. Hagler held it at one point though no?


Nah, Monzon's record of 14 is what Hagler was chasing. He'd made it to 12 successful defenses before Leonard beat him in 1987. Hopkins has the 'record' but a large portion of them were of the sole vacant IBF strap he won after Roy moved up. He wasn't the recognized World Middleweight Champion in the same way Monzon and Hagler were until he strung the titles together though it'd of probably happened a lot sooner had the fights gotten made.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah, Monzon's record of 14 is what Hagler was chasing. He'd made it to 12 successful defenses before Leonard beat him in 1987. Hopkins has the 'record' but a large portion of them were of the sole vacant IBF strap he won after Roy moved up. He wasn't the recognized World Middleweight Champion in the same way Monzon and Hagler were until he strung the titles together though it'd of probably happened a lot sooner had the fights gotten made.


Right, a common critique of Hopkins's middleweight reign.

(Edited-Hagler has the highest KO% in the Middleweight Division among champions :deal)


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

They introduce Golovkin today as being the owner of that record. :lol: Boxing is so, so fucked and diluted. '89 Duran who beat Barkley would close both of his eyes shut and Sanchez throws the towel after the tenth.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@Hands of Iron

who do you rate higher? Bhop or Hagler?


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> @Hands of Iron
> 
> who do you rate higher? Bhop or Hagler?


I know this is not to me, but I rate Hagler higher. Better opposition.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> I know this is not to me, but I rate Hagler higher. Better opposition.


I favor Hagler's middleweight reign over Bhop but I rate Bhop higher than Hagler. Multi-weight champion/still fighting prime elite dudes nearing 50. I don't know if anyone can top that feat for a very long time if ever.


----------



## MAG1965 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I favor Hagler's middleweight reign over Bhop but I rate Bhop higher than Hagler. Multi-weight champion/still fighting prime elite dudes nearing 50. I don't know if anyone can top that feat for a very long time if ever.


I think Hopkins handpicked very well. I am not sure I put as much greatness on what he did after, because he didn't beat Taylor one time out of 2. Lost easily to Calzaghe ( relatively easily). His career was drawn out and Pavlik and Wright were good wins, but I still see it as taking each fight as a it comes and looking for a small advantage in size each time. If he would have fought those guys without rules and little stipulations, I think he loses most of them. When Bernard fights the good guys he did lose most of the time.


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

@Bogotazo @Flea Man

I don't know how many times I've said it now but I desperately want to learn how to study just as effectively without all this stimulus i.e music, CHB forum, trading forum to keep me going through study. Some people need quiet conditions for study, some people need louder environments/music, I'm one of those guys that needs loud environments during easy going times). It's pretty ridiculous I know, but I have a glass will in this regard and my next deadline is on 21st March which is fucking ages.

I request a 13 day ban. Unban me at 23rd February, basically a week before Lomachenko-Salido. I'll come back with a prediction thread and a breakdown, it's almost complete anyway, just got the Orlando Cruz fight to watch. Bogo, you've never broken down Loma I don't think, I've heard Flea's and everyone elses view, would be good if you study him somewhat, your contributions are always respected.

Quite a few will be happy with this ban too lol


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No, because he fought the much better fighters. And beat them.
> 
> Failed what? To demonstrate that Leonard's career wasn't identical to Floyd's? It was never my intention. I've simply challenged you claims that Floyd deserves to be ranked higher than Floyd, which you have yet to demonstrate in any respectable fashion.
> 
> ...


Who the fuck is Antonio Cervantes?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> @Bogotazo @Flea Man
> 
> I don't know how many times I've said it now but I desperately want to learn how to study just as effectively without all this stimulus i.e music, CHB forum, trading forum to keep me going through study. Some people need quiet conditions for study, some people need louder environments/music, I'm one of those guys that needs loud environments during easy going times). It's pretty ridiculous I know, but I have a glass will in this regard and my next deadline is on 21st March which is fucking ages.
> 
> ...


Done.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> Who the fuck is Antonio Cervantes?


:rofl That will live on forever.


----------



## KO_VALEV (Feb 5, 2014)

LittleRed said:


> Who the fuck is Antonio Cervantes?


Don Quixote.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

MAG1965 said:


> I think Hopkins handpicked very well. I am not sure I put as much greatness on what he did after, because he didn't beat Taylor one time out of 2. Lost easily to Calzaghe ( relatively easily). His career was drawn out and Pavlik and Wright were good wins, but I still see it as taking each fight as a it comes and looking for a small advantage in size each time. If he would have fought those guys without rules and little stipulations, I think he loses most of them. When Bernard fights the good guys he did lose most of the time.


I gave bhop 1/2 against Taylor and thought that Bhop did enough to take the decision over Joe but he doesn't have the W for those matches so whatever. I think his matches with Tarver, Pascal, Pavlik, wright who was at the top were very good wins. Plus he never really lost convincingly so he really didn't lose a lot of points in my book.


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

KO_VALEV said:


> Don Quixote.


I knew he sounded familiar. Nice try @Bogotazo but no way is Benitez great just because he beat the guy who wrote that book about that dude who fought windmills and partnered with a panda.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> I knew he sounded familiar. Nice try @Bogotazo but no way is Benitez great just because he beat the guy who wrote that book about that dude who fought windmills and partnered with a panda.


How many windmills did Floyd beat? Aight then.


----------



## Mexi-Box (Jun 4, 2013)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> @Bogotazo @Flea Man
> 
> I don't know how many times I've said it now but I desperately want to learn how to study just as effectively without all this stimulus i.e music, CHB forum, trading forum to keep me going through study. Some people need quiet conditions for study, some people need louder environments/music, I'm one of those guys that needs loud environments during easy going times). It's pretty ridiculous I know, but I have a glass will in this regard and my next deadline is on 21st March which is fucking ages.
> 
> ...


Goodluck with your shit, when you come back. :cheers


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> How many windmills did Floyd beat? Aight then.


Ok, ok. Phillip Ndou did a pretty good impression of one though.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> How many windmills did Floyd beat? Aight then.


BUT, he could if he wanted to. :deal


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hopkins has the 'record' but a large portion of them were of the sole vacant IBF strap he won after Roy moved up.





Hands of Iron said:


> Monzon has the title defenses record (of the legit/lineal crown) by a couple over Hagler.


Was it still legit when he got stripped for failing to defend against Valdez and being a steroid monster?:blurp


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)




----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


>


Lol no.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


>


So cool. Did you make that? Make some ones going the other way!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Benitez was prime and undefeated as well. Monzon has the title defenses record (of the legit/lineal crown) by a couple over Hagler. Hagler is - despite all my clowning - a Top 5 ATG middleweight. What he was considered at the time was the best fighter in boxing, who hadn't dropped a decision in over a decade. The draw to Antuofermo was pretty poor, as was the loss to Watts. The loss to Monroe and draw with Seales a bit more legit, though he avenged all of them officially.





Bogotazo said:


> Didn't Hopkins surpass Monzon actually? Did I make that up? I'm confused now. Hagler held it at one point though no?





Hands of Iron said:


> Nah, Monzon's record of 14 is what Hagler was chasing. He'd made it to 12 successful defenses before Leonard beat him in 1987. Hopkins has the 'record' but a large portion of them were of the sole vacant IBF strap he won after Roy moved up. He wasn't the recognized World Middleweight Champion in the same way Monzon and Hagler were until he strung the titles together though it'd of probably happened a lot sooner had the fights gotten made.





Bogotazo said:


> Right, a common critique of Hopkins's middleweight reign.
> 
> (Edited-Hagler has the highest KO% in the Middleweight Division among champions :deal)





tliang1000 said:


> @Hands of Iron
> 
> who do you rate higher? Bhop or Hagler?





MAG1965 said:


> I know this is not to me, but I rate Hagler higher. Better opposition.


Yeah, definitely Hagler as far as 160 goes, though I don't think it was _that_ good as to completely override what Hopkins has been able to do beyond MW, in a P4P sense like say what SRL did over three weights from 147-160 >>> Floyd from 130-154. Though it does close the gap a bit, Hagler probably still edges it.



Lester1583 said:


> Was it still legit when he got stripped for failing to defend against Valdez and being a steroid monster?:blurp


 @Phantom :yep


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Monzon is overrated.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

I'll give Tiang credit for one thing:
Never in a million years would I have predicted that this would be a fifty page thread.The kid started some major discussion and even brought the @Flea Man over to see us!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Monzon is overrated.


Overrated in the sense that you don't feel he's a top five all-time middleweight, overrated in the sense that he doesn't have wins as good as Nunn and McCallum  or just plain overrated in terms of his abilities?



PityTheFool said:


> I'll give Tiang credit for one thing:
> Never in a million years would I have predicted that this would be a fifty page thread.The kid started some major discussion and even brought the @Flea Man over to see us!


Floyd fought guys a lot more formidable and skilled than Toney x2, Kalambay x2, Curry, Jackson... All fluff. :rofl Remember that one? I havent seen that guy around since. Made one parting comment about Hall of Famer Chad Dawson I think.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Monzon is overrated.














PityTheFool said:


> I'll give Tiang credit for one thing:
> Never in a million years would I have predicted that this would be a fifty page thread.The kid started some major discussion and even brought the @Flea Man over to see us!


He's a punching bag for knowledge. It's great :lol:


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Overrated in the sense that you don't feel he's a top five all-time middleweight, overrated in the sense that he doesn't have wins as good as Nunn and McCallum  or just plain overrated in terms of his abilities?
> 
> Floyd fought guys a lot more formidable and skilled than Toney x2, Kalambay x2, Curry, Jackson... All fluff. :rofl Remember that one? I havent seen that guy around since. Made one parting comment about Hall of Famer Chad Dawson I think.


You know I love your more sizable posts.Why don't you run that all by us is more detail again?:rofl


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> You know I love your more sizable posts.Why don't you run that all by us is more detail again?:rofl


:lol:

It has to be more in the moment. You and I are definitely two of the biggest McCallum hipsters around though. I frankly don't give a shit.


----------



## Phantom (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Monzon is overrated.


Ridiculous.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Phantom said:


> Ridiculous.


Not really. All his best wins were past prime greats. Benvenuti just was not a reliable or elite level fighter. Griffith 1 is a good win. Monzon looked horrific in the rematch.

The best fighter he beat was physically depleted after a car accident and Monzon avoided him years before.

I'm not saying he isn't one of the 5 greatest middleweights of all time,only he isn't the no.1 and I think it's cliched hyperbole that so many think he is.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


>


:rofl


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Monzon is overrated.


Icy cold stare.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Overrated in the sense that you don't feel he's a top five all-time middleweight, overrated in the sense that he doesn't have wins as good as Nunn and McCallum  or just plain overrated in terms of his abilities?


Overrated in the sense that Freddie Steele deserves a mention.

@Vysotsky


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Griffith 1 is a good win.


Monzon looked two weight divisions bigger than Griffith.

The size difference in the first fight is Avelar-A.Lopez-like


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah, that was insanity! Forrest brroke my heart that night





Lester1583 said:


> Mosley was never the same after the Forrest fights


:sad2


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> :sad2


The next Tommy Hearns beating the next Ray Robinson :verysad


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> LMAO. First of BOGO. SRL didn't achieved what Floyd was able to do which is to go on 18 years without a loss NOW DID HE?* So you failed.*
> Top 10 contenders/champion pasting records LOL what the fuck does this look like????
> 
> 
> ...





PityTheFool said:


> Does it take a rocket scientist to type "how boxing works" and "how it has always workED"?
> 
> You're whole OP was completely misleading.
> 
> ...





Pedderrs said:


> Tliang is still copying and pasting the entire Boxrec website? For fuck's sake.





Bogotazo said:


> No, because he fought the much better fighters. And beat them.
> 
> Failed what? To demonstrate that Leonard's career wasn't identical to Floyd's? It was never my intention. I've simply challenged you claims that Floyd deserves to be ranked higher than Floyd, which you have yet to demonstrate in any respectable fashion.
> 
> ...


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@Hands,

I definitely feel Floyd last 10 opponents is comparable to that SRL segment. 
Sure you can make some excuses for JMM being smaller, Oscar and Shane being older but they were all in the top 10 p4p and coming off big wins at the time.
Just like you can make excuses for Duran's trouble in making weight against SRL on the rematch. Tommy was beating SRL until the ko. 

The best win out of the SRL list is Hearns, and without any doubt is Wilfred.

Wilfred doesn't have a better resume than Oscar or JMM. 
So in short yes SRL got Duran, Hearns, Benitez vs Oscar, Shane, JMM, Cotto.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> @Hands,
> 
> I definitely feel Floyd last 10 opponents is comparable to that SRL segment.


How?



tliang1000 said:


> Sure you can make some excuses for JMM being smaller, Oscar and Shane being older but they were all in the top 10 p4p and coming off big wins at the time.
> Just like you can make excuses for Duran's trouble in making weight against SRL on the rematch. Tommy was beating SRL until the ko.


JMM being smaller doesn't even matter because he's not as accomplished as Hagler, or Hearns, or Duran, or Benitez. You could argue JMM has a better single win over Benitez (Pacquiao), but you're stuck with the fact Benitez was a prime undefeated technician who's weight was just fine at welterweight. No catch-weight, no fine, no dragging up.



tliang1000 said:


> Oscar and Shane being older but they were all in the top 10 p4p and coming off big wins at the time.
> Just like you can make excuses for Duran's trouble in making weight against SRL on the rematch. Tommy was beating SRL until the ko.


De La Hoya was visibly faded. The win he was coming off was Mayorga. Not a bad win, but it's not undefeated Benitez, undefeated Hearns, Duran coming off Leonard himself (again, arguably the best single win in boxing history) and Hagler when Leonard himself was undersized for Middleweight, inactive, and recovering from a detached retina as a heavy underdog. Shane's win over Margarito-while very good-was over a year earlier and Shane's best win was a whole decade prior. Doesn't compare. Besides, even at his best, Shane's resume doesn't stack up. Hearns being up on the cards speaks more about Hearns's abilities than any deficiencies Leonard had. And he won.



tliang1000 said:


> The best win out of the SRL list is Hearns, and without any doubt is Wilfred.


Hearns is Wilfred? What?



tliang1000 said:


> Wilfred doesn't have a better resume than Oscar or JMM.


How would you know? You'd never even heard of Benitez's best ATG win until this thread. Again, stating the conclusion you like without the evidence to prove it.



tliang1000 said:


> So in short yes SRL got Duran, Hearns, Benitez vs Oscar, Shane, JMM, Cotto.


Still you make no argument. You never flesh out why any of Floyd's wins are superior to Leonard's, you just state it. I repeat, since you seem unable to provide evidence for your claims contrary to these statements:



Bogotazo said:


> But I showed you why they're different. I told you, and you choose to ignore it. Floyd's best wins are a faded Oscar, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, a past-prime Cotto. Leonard's best wins are:
> 
> Tommy Hearns-undefeated welterweight monster who was the first to legitimately stop Roberto Duran (knocking him out cold), outboxed Wilfred Benitez over 15 rounds, and went on to win a light-heavyweight championship from Virgil Hill. Few in history match up well with such a complete boxer-puncher as Hearns.
> 
> ...





Bogotazo said:


> This is about the quality of opponents. Historical greatness. You cannot fathom that, or choose to ignore it because you know it doesn't work in your favor.
> 
> A faded De La Hoya is not a better fighter or win than an undefeated Benitez, Roberto Duran, undefeated Tommy Hearns, or Marvin Hagler.
> Cotto is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler.
> ...


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

In any case, @Hands of Iron he was talking to you anyway. You go ahead and give it a go for a change.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

@Bogotazo You're a wonderful man.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> In any case, @Hands of Iron he was talking to you anyway. You go ahead and give it a go for a change.


I've been supporting your arguments almost the whole thread ! :ibutt

Except when I've come back to five additional pages.

I think Wilfred Benitez has a pretty good shout as being one of the five most defensively skilled guys since Willie Pep; whereas with Hearns he's absolutely one of the most formidable boxer-punchers in history nevermind since the days of Sugar Ray Robinson. He beat both whilst they were prime and undefeated. If anything to me, Hearns outboxing Leonard for long stretches, forcing him to either go for broke or lose and Benitez making adjustments after the first few rounds and getting his share of frames against SRL only really works to verify that and tells me they came prepared to win. He didn't dominate them in the manner say Pea did Chavez or Jones with Toney, but they were better fighters on the night IMO (you should be well aware of why) and those are two of the better wins of the last several decades. Floyd doesn't really have anything to be in this sort of conversation. Leonard didn't just beat two or three guys though, he wiped the whole era clean.
@Flea Man rates the Rumble over the Brawl in Montreal.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I've been supporting your arguments almost the whole thread ! :ibutt
> 
> Except when I've come back to five additional pages.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Ali was more depleted than Duran and Foreman was deemed more unstoppable at that point than Leonard was from what I can gather.

I know Foreman isn't everyone's cup of tea aesthetically but he was a straight up monster. In retrosepect, Ali being the only man to ever stop Foreman makes it even more impressive.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, Ali was more depleted than Duran and Foreman was deemed more unstoppable at that point than Leonard was from what I can gather.
> 
> I know Foreman isn't everyone's cup of tea aesthetically but he was a straight up monster. In retrosepect, Ali being the only man to ever stop Foreman makes it even more impressive.


I don't find it preposterous whatsoever. The circumstances play a role as I obviously wouldn't consider Foreman a better fighter than Leonard ever -- but it's not as if he isn't one of the greatest and most destructive Heavyweights of all-time, that he wasn't primed up, 40-0 or hadn't wrecked both Frazier and Norton in less than four rounds combined, that Ali wasn't well beyond FOTC form much less his actual peak. It's a monstrous win. Perhaps if Duran had literally "moved up from lightweight TO fight Leonard" but we both know that didn't happen. I'm fucking shocked how many times I read that, for several different reasons.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I don't find it preposterous whatsoever. The circumstances play a role as I obviously wouldn't consider Foreman a better fighter than Leonard ever -- but it's not as if he isn't one of the greatest and most destructive Heavyweights of all-time, that he wasn't primed up, 40-0 or hadn't wrecked both Frazier and Norton in less than four rounds combined, that Ali wasn't well beyond FOTC form much less his actual peak. It's a monstrous win. Perhaps if Duran had literally "moved up from lightweight TO fight Leonard" but we both know that didn't happen. I'm fucking shocked how many times I read that, for several different reasons.


They're damn close though. Harada-Jofre I is right up there as well.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> They're damn close though. Harada-Jofre I is right up there as well.


How many wins at welterweight would you put above Leonard/Hearns I aside from Duran/Leonard I and Ross/Armstrong? :think I'd always thought of it adding quite a bit to Duran's own win in hindsight. Leonard had to of done something significant to give it another huge kick. Not that completely looking the part in the ring, outboxing Benitez and dominating a good sized handful of decent and serviceable contenders isn't impressive.


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How many wins at welterweight would you put above Leonard/Hearns I aside from Duran/Leonard I and Ross/Armstrong? :think


maliigangii - senchenko


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> How many wins at welterweight would you put above Leonard/Hearns I aside from Duran/Leonard I and Ross/Armstrong? :think I'd always thought of it adding quite a bit to Duran's own win in hindsight. Leonard had to of done something significant to give it another huge kick. Not that completely looking the part in the ring, outboxing Benitez and dominating a good sized handful of decent and serviceable contenders isn't impressive.


Duran-Leonard I is probably the best IMO.

I'd have McLarnin-YC3 right up there as well. Incredible victory.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@Teeto what do you make of all this?



Bogotazo said:


> How?
> 
> JMM being smaller doesn't even matter because he's not as accomplished as Hagler, or Hearns, or Duran, or Benitez. You could argue JMM has a better single win over Benitez (Pacquiao), but you're stuck with the fact Benitez was a prime undefeated technician who's weight was just fine at welterweight. No catch-weight, no fine, no dragging up.
> 
> ...





Hands of Iron said:


> I've been supporting your arguments almost the whole thread ! :ibutt
> 
> Except when I've come back to five additional pages.
> 
> ...





Flea Man said:


> Yeah, Ali was more depleted than Duran and Foreman was deemed more unstoppable at that point than Leonard was from what I can gather.
> 
> I know Foreman isn't everyone's cup of tea aesthetically but he was a straight up monster. In retrosepect, Ali being the only man to ever stop Foreman makes it even more impressive.





Hands of Iron said:


> I don't find it preposterous whatsoever. The circumstances play a role as I obviously wouldn't consider Foreman a better fighter than Leonard ever -- but it's not as if he isn't one of the greatest and most destructive Heavyweights of all-time, that he wasn't primed up, 40-0 or hadn't wrecked both Frazier and Norton in less than four rounds combined, that Ali wasn't well beyond FOTC form much less his actual peak. It's a monstrous win. Perhaps if Duran had literally "moved up from lightweight TO fight Leonard" but we both know that didn't happen. I'm fucking shocked how many times I read that, for several different reasons.





Flea Man said:


> They're damn close though. Harada-Jofre I is right up there as well.





Hands of Iron said:


> How many wins at welterweight would you put above Leonard/Hearns I aside from Duran/Leonard I and Ross/Armstrong? :think I'd always thought of it adding quite a bit to Duran's own win in hindsight. Leonard had to of done something significant to give it another huge kick. Not that completely looking the part in the ring, outboxing Benitez and dominating a good sized handful of decent and serviceable contenders isn't impressive.





Flea Man said:


> Duran-Leonard I is probably the best IMO.
> 
> I'd have McLarnin-YC3 right up there as well. Incredible victory.


Great mention. I'm sure that's Sweet Pea's #1 .


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> @Bogotazo You're a wonderful man.


Indeed he is,but sadly,there are none so blind as those who won't listen.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How many wins at welterweight would you put above Leonard/Hearns I aside from Duran/Leonard I and Ross/Armstrong? :think I'd always thought of it adding quite a bit to Duran's own win in hindsight. Leonard had to of done something significant to give it another huge kick. Not that completely looking the part in the ring, outboxing Benitez and dominating a good sized handful of decent and serviceable contenders isn't impressive.


Every time we put the "Dooran was outta shape" to bed,we get,"Ray was losing until the KO"
That's what makes the win even more impressive for me.Just like I feel the Montreal loss actually enhances his legacy,coming back from the brink of defeat casts it in stone.
But that leaves us,"Floyd always dominates"
Well Benitez would dominate at least 95% of those guys IMO.
Much as I'm a big Floyd fan,I'd love to see him respond to real adversity.
That would enhance HIS legacy.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Every time we put the "Dooran was outta shape" to bed,we get,"Ray was losing until the KO"
> That's what makes the win even more impressive for me.Just like I feel the Montreal loss actually enhances his legacy,coming back from the brink of defeat casts it in stone.
> But that leaves us,"Floyd always dominates"
> Well Benitez would dominate at least 95% of those guys IMO.
> ...


Having multiple injuries including a confirmed torn rotator cuff and perhaps a cracked rib and yet going toe to toe with the best lightweight of his generation (Castillo) when most thought he was losing and I feel winning the round (11) shows to me overcoming tremendous adversity. Oh and Floyd was 24 and outweighed by 10lbs in his first fight at lightweight to go along with the injuries


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Oh and I rate Whitaker schooling Chavez higher than Duran vs Leonard II and Leonard over Benitez.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> How many wins at welterweight would you put above Leonard/Hearns I aside from Duran/Leonard I and Ross/Armstrong? :think


Robinson-Gavilan
El Feo-Fucking Griffith x4
Oscar-Kamau
Backus-Napoles
Cokes-LMR

All deserve a mention.

In other words, Leonard-Hearns-1 is a top 20 win.

At best.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Oh and I rate Whitaker schooling Chavez higher than Duran vs Leonard II and Leonard over Benitez.


Arguable. Still, Chavez was not a great welter and was arguably already slipping a little bit.

Great win nonetheless.

Benitez would've dominated Chavez at 147. 17 year old El Radar might well have schooled prime 140lb JCC.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Robinson-Gavilan


Yep.



Lester1583 said:


> El Feo-Fucking Griffith x4


Oh, yes.



Lester1583 said:


> Backus-Napoles


Meh. Napoles-Cokes I maybe.



Lester1583 said:


> Cokes-LMR III


Yep.



Lester1583 said:


> All deserve a mention.
> 
> In other words, Leonard-Hearns-1 is a top 20 win.


Nope, top 5.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

:lol:

Lester threw both sides of himself into that one.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Meh. Napoles-Cokes I maybe.


The Backus fight was the final nail in the coffin - it's the main reason Napoles loses all hypothetical fights via cuts.

It's importance can not be overestimated.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Having multiple injuries including a confirmed torn rotator cuff and perhaps a cracked rib and yet going toe to toe with the best lightweight of his generation (Castillo) when most thought he was losing and I feel winning the round (11) shows to me overcoming tremendous adversity. Oh and Floyd was 24 and outweighed by 10lbs in his first fight at lightweight to go along with the injuries


I'm not saying it's a bad thing that his skills make him so dominant,but there's a part of me that would like to see him responding to the sort of problems Leonard faced against Tommy,as it would be another finger to his critics.
I see exactly what you mean against Castillo,but it was a fight that was always there to be won,if you get what I mean?
I know the injuries are a factor,but he's been so dominant that all people have to grab onto is half a round against Mosley in a fight he skated through.And I was glad he did as I thought the way they hijacked the ring after the JMM fight earned Shane a whuppin.
But there's no one who can get near enough to make a dent in that considerable chin around,so I don't think we're going to see Floyd in a FOTY before he retires.I'd just like to see him in a different kind of fight.
Not disagreeing about Castillo,but it wasn't the event that a Floyd fight is now or SRL-Hearns was then.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> The Backus fight was the final nail in the coffin - it's the main reason Napoles loses all hypothetical fights via cuts.
> 
> It's importance can not be overestimated.


:lol:


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> How many wins at welterweight would you put above Leonard/Hearns I aside from Duran/Leonard I and Ross/Armstrong? :think I'd always thought of it adding quite a bit to Duran's own win in hindsight. Leonard had to of done something significant to give it another huge kick. Not that completely looking the part in the ring, outboxing Benitez and dominating a good sized handful of decent and serviceable contenders isn't impressive.





Flea Man said:


> Duran-Leonard I is probably the best IMO.
> 
> I'd have McLarnin-YC3 right up there as well. Incredible victory.





Lester1583 said:


> Robinson-Gavilan
> El Feo-Fucking Griffith x4
> Oscar-Kamau
> Backus-Napoles
> ...


How does everyone feel about Pete Latzo knocking the stuffing out of a prime Mickey Walker?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> How does everyone feel about Pete Latzo knocking the stuffing out of a prime Mickey Walker?


I feel Walker was in his prime at middle :yep


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

Blasphemy!


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

LittleRed said:


> How does everyone feel about Pete Latzo knocking the stuffing out of a prime Mickey Walker?


Doesn't count.

Walker destroyed Latzo in a street fight.


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Teeto what do you make of all this?
> 
> Great mention. I'm sure that's Sweet Pea's #1 .


hey bro, I've only been on CHB briefly the past couple days, I'm gunna read this discussion later tonight and get at you with my thoughts :good


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Teeto what do you make of all this?
> 
> Great mention. I'm sure that's Sweet Pea's #1 .


I just read all this. I don't really know what to say, what was the original topic you were debating with Bogo in regards to JMM all about? I don't get what the background of the discussion is sorry man


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Teeto said:


> I just read all this. I don't really know what to say, what was the original topic you were debating with Bogo in regards to JMM all about? I don't get what the background of the discussion is sorry man


:lol:

I argue with Bogo about very little, and especially not this particular thread. Only the quoted stuff:

Better win: Rumble in the Jungle or Brawl in Montreal?

How many wins do you think top SRL/Hearns I aside from Duran/SRL I and Armstrong/Ross?

Would you say Benitez was one of the five most defensively skilled fighters since Pep?


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> I argue with Bogo about very little, and especially not this particular thread. Only the quoted stuff:


Ah Ok I'm with you



Hands of Iron said:


> Better win: Rumble in the Jungle or Brawl in Montreal?


I would say Duran beating Leonard is potentially the top win of all time. To put Ali beating Foreman makes it even more amazing than it already is just on paper though, considering the lay-off before the 70s etc and the past prime status. It's really close, I will edge toward Duran though, he essentially was coming up in weight, even though he'd established himself at that weight already with Palomino etc.



Hands of Iron said:


> How many wins do you think top SRL/Hearns I aside from Duran/SRL I and Armstrong/Ross?


Do you mean wins from anyone? Erm, I dunno, let me think just off the top of my head, I can't think of many, maybe LaMotta beating Robinson, Ali beating Liston, Harada beating Jofre maybe. There aren't many, that's for sure. Leonard over Hearns must be one of the greatest wins ever recorded.



Hands of Iron said:


> Would you say Benitez was one of the five most defensively skilled fighters since Pep?


Yeah I guess. I'm just thinking now of which others I'd be considering. Obviously Whitaker, Mayweather, Canto, Zapata, Locche, Hopkins. I would like to consider a guy like Marc Johnson too but I think he probably falls short. I love that guy so much though, but anyway, Benitez is in this mix clearly. You could argue Duran too but I think because of just how extremely aggressive he was he obviously took more shots than the others regardless of how great his defense was, that's just simple probability for you. So I'd exclude Duran.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Teeto said:


> Ah Ok I'm with you
> 
> I would say Duran beating Leonard is potentially the top win of all time. To put Ali beating Foreman makes it even more amazing than it already is just on paper though, considering the lay-off before the 70s etc and the past prime status. It's really close, I will edge toward Duran though, he essentially was coming up in weight, even though he'd established himself at that weight already with Palomino etc.
> 
> ...


Starling :yep :good
I'd have Duran>Too Sharp


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Starling :yep :good
> I'd have Duran>Too Sharp


:good


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Greb beating Tunney > SRL beating Hearns :yep


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Greb beating Tunney > SRL beating Hearns :yep


In the first fight? No way, Tunney was seen a pretty protected fighter at that point.

In the second fight? You've got more of an argument.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> In the first fight? No way, Tunney was seen a pretty protected fighter at that point.
> 
> In the second fight? You've got more of an argument.


Whichever one you like dear Flea. Hearns didn't beat a who's who at WW before losing to Sugar, either.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Some of you try to hard to deny Floyd is pretty sad really.


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.


turbotime said:


> Greb beating Tunney > SRL beating Hearns :yep


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Whichever one you like dear Flea. *Hearns didn't beat a who's who at WW before losing to Sugar, either*.


You can say this for a lot of instances. The difference is few look or were better than Hearns. Including Tunney. Like, not a chance.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hopkins was lighting the world on fire prior to losing to Jones. He wasn't even considered top five at the weight yet.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Teeto said:


> Ah Ok I'm with you
> 
> I would say Duran beating Leonard is potentially the top win of all time. To put Ali beating Foreman makes it even more amazing than it already is just on paper though, considering the lay-off before the 70s etc and the past prime status. It's really close, I will edge toward Duran though, he essentially was coming up in weight, even though he'd established himself at that weight already with Palomino etc.
> 
> ...


Never disappoint. Aside from the last sentence :lol: :yep


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.


Greb is such a G.



Hands of Iron said:


> You can say this for a lot of instances. The difference is few look or were better than Hearns. Including Tunney. Like, not a chance.


Tunney looks great fighting guys the level of Mike Colbert.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Greb is such a G.
> 
> Tunney looks great fighting guys the level of Mike Colbert.


Greb's the best German-American fighter :yep


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.





Hands of Iron said:


> Greb's the best German-American fighter :yep


:lol:

Greb
HOI
Mickey Walker


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :lol:
> 
> Greb
> HOI
> Mickey Walker


Fucking bee stung me on the side of my face. All swelled up n shit like someone busted my jaw.


----------



## Teeto (May 31, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Never disappoint. Aside from the last sentence :lol: :yep


:lol: I came close :good


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Bee stings are no joke man, a good one hurts like a cunt :lol:



Hands of Iron said:


> Fucking bee stung me on the side of my face. All swelled up n shit like someone busted my jaw.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Some of you try to hard to deny Floyd is pretty sad really.


Which of Floyd rank with the best in the history of the sport you window licking cunt?


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Nobody in there right mind would deny floyd. And nobody is shitting on him. Hes the best fighter in boxing and a all time great. There just isnt enough there to consider him a top 3 fighter ever like you seem to think.


tliang1000 said:


> Some of you try to hard to deny Floyd is pretty sad really.


----------



## Mal (Aug 25, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Some of you try to hard to deny Floyd is pretty sad really.


You do not want anyone to deny FMjr is pretty sad? :lol:


----------



## Primadonna Kool (Jun 14, 2012)

Sugar Ray Leonard is not only faster than Floyd Mayweather, a better combination puncher, better offence, physically tougher, more athletic.

Mayweather probably only has a better defence, that's about it.

Mayweather is completely ruined in the fight!


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Primadonna Kool said:


> Sugar Ray Leonard is not only faster than Floyd Mayweather, a better combination puncher, better offence, physically tougher, more athletic.
> 
> Mayweather probably only has a better defence, that's about it.
> 
> Mayweather is completely ruined in the fight!


You're right about a welterweight match. The Floyd from 130, though, is pretty close to Leonard P4P IMO.


----------



## Primadonna Kool (Jun 14, 2012)

steviebruno said:


> You're right about a welterweight match. The Floyd from 130, though, is pretty close to Leonard P4P IMO.


And that guy in you're Avatar is also a nightmare for Mayweather.

But Mayweather would beat Duran.

Tommy Hearns could easily destroy Mayweather inside afew rounds.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Primadonna Kool said:


> And that guy in you're Avatar is also a nightmare for Mayweather.
> 
> But Mayweather would beat Duran.
> 
> Tommy Hearns could easily destroy Mayweather inside afew rounds.


I'm not sure that Floyd could beat Duran. Mayweather would be so uncomfortable in there, and that takes alot away from such a cerebral figher.

It really depends on which Duran showed up. He was probably the least consistent of the top 10 ATGs.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Primadonna Kool said:


> And that guy in you're Avatar is also a nightmare for Mayweather.
> 
> But Mayweather would beat Duran.
> 
> Tommy Hearns could easily destroy Mayweather inside afew rounds.


Mayweather would have little chance to beat Duran


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Dejesus did why can't Floyd?



Flea Man said:


> Mayweather would have little chance to beat Duran


----------



## Mushin (Dec 12, 2013)

Floyd has better defense but is he a better overall fighter than Leonard? I don't think so.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.





Hands of Iron said:


> Hopkins was lighting the world on fire prior to losing to Jones. He wasn't even considered top five at the weight yet.


:lol: What? Seems like that bee KO'd your rear-end


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

The fab 4 is so much better but yet they lose to lessor fighters. Funny how that works. Meanwhile Floyd dominated p4p fighters by shut out by yet he can't compete with the fab 4, figure that one out.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> The fab 4 is so much better but yet they lose to lessor fighters. Funny how that works. Meanwhile Floyd dominated p4p fighters by shut out by yet he can't compete with the fab 4, figure that one out.


Benitez didn't beat a soul Mayweather couldn't beat.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Benitez didn't beat a soul Mayweather couldn't beat.


* Wilfred's last 10 opponents*

 1990-09-18
Scott Papasodora*15*-*6*-*1*

Convention Centre, Winnipeg, Manitoba, CanadaLUD1010  referee: Mike Pestrak | judge: Robert Tapper | judge: Johnny Roberts | judge: Ed St. Mars 
 1990-08-24Sam Wilson*1*-*5*-*1*

Regency Hotel, Denver, Colorado, USAWUD1010 98-91 | 99-90 | 96-93 
 1990-05-23Pat Lawlor*13*-*1*-*0*

Tucson, Arizona, USALPTS10101990-03-08Ariel Conde*0*-*10*-*0*

Americana Motel, Phoenix, Arizona, USAWKO7101986-11-28Carlos Maria del Valle Herrera*54*-*9*-*0*

Salta, Salta, ArgentinaLTKO7101986-09-17Harry Daniels*14*-*3*-*1*

5th Regiment Armory, Baltimore, Maryland, USAWUD1010 referee: Larry Barrett | judge: Harry Cecchini 98-95 | judge: Frank Kelly 98-95 | judge: Tom Kelly 97-95  1986-07-01Paul Whittaker*19*-*0*-*0*

Superdome, New Orleans, Louisiana, USAWUD1010 referee: Lucien Joubert 6-4 | judge: Kenny Snow 5-4 | judge: Paul Sita 6-3  1986-02-15Matthew Hilton*19*-*0*-*0*

Paul Sauve Arena, Montreal, Quebec, CanadaLKO910 time: 2:59 | referee: Guy Jutras | judge: Jean Lapointe | judge: Lise Lavallee | judge: Jean-Claude Theroux  1985-08-21
Kevin Moley*21*-*1*-*0*

Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USAWUD1010 referee: Joe Cortez | judge: George DeGabriel 8-2 | judge: Bernie Friedkin 7-3 | judge: Simon Ramos 7-3 
 1985-07-06
Danny Chapman*15*-*17*-*0*

Convention Center, Washington, District of Columbia, USAWRTD710 
*

Juan's last 10*


2013-10-12Timothy Bradley
*30*-*0*-*0*

Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALSD1212  referee: Robert Byrd | judge: Robert Hoyle 113-115 | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 112-116 | judge: Glenn Feldman 115-113 
WBO welterweight title (supervisor: Francisco Valcarcel)
 2012-12-08Manny Pacquiao*54*-*4*-*2*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWKO612 time: 2:59 | referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Adalaide Byrd 46-47 | judge: Steve Weisfeld 46-47 | judge: John Keane 46-47 
 2012-04-14Serhiy Fedchenko*30*-*1*-*0*

New Mexico City Arena, Mexico City, Distrito Federal, MexicoWUD1212 referee: Benjy Esteves Jr. | judge: Steve Weisfeld 118-110 | judge: Alejandro Lopez Cid 118-110 | judge: Rafael Isenia 119-109 
interim WBO light welterweight title (supervisor: Francisco Valcarcel)
 2011-11-12
Manny Pacquiao*53*-*3*-*2*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALMD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Dave Moretti 113-115 | judge: Robert Hoyle 114-114 | judge: Glenn Trowbridge 112-116 
WBO welterweight title (supervisor: Francisco Valcarcel)
Contracted weight: 144 lbs.
 2011-07-16
Likar Ramos*24*-*3*-*0*

Plaza de Toros, Cancun, Quintana Roo, MexicoWTKO110 time: 1:46 | referee: Manolo Alcocer | judge: Isaac Barrios | judge: Marco Antonio Sandoval | judge: Luis Fitch 
Ramos down once in rd 1
 2010-11-27
Michael Katsidis*27*-*2*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO912 time: 2:14 | referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Robert Hoyle 77-74 | judge: Adalaide Byrd 78-74 | judge: Ted Gimza 76-75 
WBA Super World lightweight title (supervisor: Mike McAleenan)
WBO lightweight title
Marquez down in round three
 2010-07-31
Juan Diaz*35*-*3*-*0*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Vic Drakulich | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-111 | judge: Jerry Roth 116-112 | judge: Glenn Trowbridge 118-110 
WBO lightweight title
WBA Super World lightweight title (supervisor: Michael Welsh)
 2009-09-19Floyd Mayweather Jr*39*-*0*-*0*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Burt A. Clements 107-120 | judge: Dave Moretti 108-119 | judge: Bill Lerch 109-118 
Marquez down once in 2nd round
 2009-02-28Juan Diaz*34*-*1*-*0*

Toyota Center, Houston, Texas, USAWTKO912 time: 2:40 | referee: Rafael Ramos | judge: Levi Martinez 76-76 | judge: Duane Ford 75-77 | judge: Max DeLuca 77-75 
vacant WBO lightweight title
vacant WBA Super World lightweight title (supervisor: Gilberto Jesus Mendoza)
International Boxing Organization lightweight title 2008-09-13Joel Casamayor*36*-*3*-*1*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO1112

According to bozo that JMM didn't beat anyone in Wilfred's level except for "Paciquao"
But yet look at the level of competition between the two.

Delusional posters. You can only find these comments in the forum. You'll get laughed at in the gym.

They are trying so hard in the threads for a reason bc they know they are full of shit.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Benitez is great, but a few steps below Mayweather in ATGness. This whole Fab 4 nonsense needs to fucking stop though. I get it, we needed something post-Ali. But it's built up to so much. People don't even know if the fab 4 is actually Benitez or Hagler :conf


Why aren't Quartey, Delahoya, Carr, Trinidad getting the same star treatment?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

The man who beat the "fierce" "ultra skilled" "fast" Duran's opponent vs one of Floyd's opponent who people trashed. Even him got a better last ten opponents. But can the fabturds see it???? Of course not. What a joke. BUT BUT BUT they are just better. Do they have Duran on their resume????*

Dejesus's last ten
*

 1980-07-07Saoul Mamby*27*-*12*-*5*

Metropolitan Sports Center, Bloomington, Minnesota, USALTKO1315  time: 1:13 | referee: Rudy Ortega 110-117 | judge: Dennis Nelson 112-117 | judge: George Reiter Jr. 110-118 
WBC light welterweight title
 1980-05-10Jose Vallejo*2*-*0*-*0*

San Juan, Puerto RicoWKO7101979-11-09Ruby Ortiz*20*-*3*-*3*

Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USAWUD10101979-10-04Jimmy Blevins*11*-*2*-*1*

Felt Forum, New York, New York, USAWUD10101978-10-27Edwin Viruet*25*-*3*-*2*

Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USAWSD10101978-07-08Chuchu Hernandez*0*-*1*-*0*

San Juan, Puerto RicoWTKO21978-06-03Pablo Baez*5*-*4*-*0*

Coliseo Roberto Clemente, San Juan, Puerto RicoWTKO31978-01-21Roberto Duran*62*-*1*-*0*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALTKO1215 time: 2:32 | referee: Buddy Basilico | judge: Art Lurie | judge: Isidro Rodriguez | judge: Richard Steele 
WBC lightweight title
WBA World lightweight title
Duran vacates the Lightweight Title in January 1979
 1977-09-10James Brackett*5*-*2*-*0*

Coliseo Roberto Clemente, San Juan, Puerto RicoWPTS10101977-06-25Vicente Mijares*14*-*0*-*0*

Loubriel Stadium, Bayamon, Puerto RicoWKO1115 time: 2:20 | referee: Raymond Baldeyrou  

*
Robert Guerruro's ten*


 2013-05-04Floyd Mayweather Jr*43*-*0*-*0*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALUD1212  referee: Robert Byrd | judge: Jerry Roth 111-117 | judge: Duane Ford 111-117 | judge: Julie Lederman 111-117 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman)
 2012-11-24Andre Berto*28*-*1*-*0*

Citizens Business Bank Arena, Ontario, California, USAWUD1212 referee: Lou Moret | judge: Max DeLuca 116-110 | judge: Julie Lederman 116-110 | judge: Alejandro Rochin 116-110 
interim WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Rudy Tellez)
Berto down in 1st & 2nd rds
 2012-07-28Selcuk Aydin*23*-*0*-*0*

HP Pavilion, San Jose, California, USAWUD1212 referee: Dan Stell | judge: Max DeLuca 116-112 | judge: Mark Green 116-112 | judge: Michael Tate 117-111 
interim WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Robert Lenhardt)
 2011-04-09Michael Katsidis*27*-*3*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Russell Mora | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-108 | judge: Dave Moretti 118-106 | judge: C.J. Ross 118-107 
interim WBA World lightweight title (supervisor: Michael Welsh)
interim WBO lightweight title (supervisor: Richard De Cuir)
Katsidis twice deducted a point in the eighth and Guerrero deducted a point in the ninth round
 2010-11-06Vicente Escobedo*22*-*2*-*0*

Prudential Center, Newark, New Jersey, USAWUD1010 referee: Ricardo Vera | judge: Jean Williams 100-90 | judge: Alan Rubenstein 98-90 | judge: Debra Barnes 96-92 
vacant WBO Inter-Continental lightweight title
Escobedo down once in each of rounds three and six
 2010-07-31Joel Casamayor*37*-*4*-*1*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1010 referee: Jay Nady | judge: Robert Hoyle 98-89 | judge: Richard Houck 98-89 | judge: Lisa Giampa 97-90 
Casamayor deducted a point and down once in the second round; Guerrero down once in round ten
 2010-04-30Roberto David Arrieta*35*-*15*-*4*

Tropicana Hotel & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO810 time: 0:29 | referee: Jay Nady | judge: Richard Houck | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman | judge: Jerry Roth 
 2009-08-22Malcolm Klassen*24*-*4*-*2*

Toyota Center, Houston, Texas, USAWUD1212 referee: Jon Schorle | judge: Charles Phillips 117-111 | judge: Luis Rivera 116-112 | judge: Isaac Tshabalala 116-113 
IBF super featherweight title
 2009-06-12Efren Hinojosa*30*-*5*-*1*

HP Pavilion, San Jose, California, USAWRTD810 time: 3:00 | referee: Dan Stell 
Arm injury, fight stopped on advice of the ringside physician.
 2009-03-07Daud Cino Yordan*23*-*0*-*0*

HP Pavilion, San Jose, California, USANCND210 time: 1:47 | referee: Jon Schorle | judge: Al Bennett | judge: Steve English | judge: Marshall Walker 
vacant WBO NABO super featherweight title
Clash of heads caused a cut over the right eye for Guerrero who was unable to continue. 


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Benitez is great, but a few steps below Mayweather in ATGness. This whole Fab 4 nonsense needs to fucking stop though. I get it, we needed something post-Ali. But it's built up to so much. People don't even know if the fab 4 is actually Benitez or Hagler :conf
> 
> Why aren't Quartey, Delahoya, Carr, Trinidad getting the same star treatment?


Turbo i already know what i would find before i even attempt to find it. I can go on. Most of the fab 4's opponents can't even compare with Floyds.

*BUT WAIT FLOYD DON'T have the FAB4 ON HIS RESUME*. The most famous excuse in the world.

Bhop's quote "you can make a *weak* excuse about the talent pool" <----- i can't say it better.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Most of Floyd's opponent that he beat went on to be become champion again and still fighting while the Fab 4's opponent's went back fighting tomato cans.

Don't believe me? Take a fucking look. I can go on.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Turbo i already know what i would find before i even attempt to find it. I can go on. Most of the fab 4's opponents can't even compare with Floyds.
> 
> *BUT WAIT FLOYD DON'T have the FAB4 ON HIS RESUME*. The most famous excuse in the world.
> 
> Bhop's quote "you can make a *weak* excuse about the talent pool" <----- i can't say it better.


I do get what you're saying. May just isn't as good as Duran and Leonard in their achievements.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Most of Floyd's opponent that he beat went on to be become champion again and still fighting while the Fab 4's opponent's went back fighting tomato cans.

Don't believe me? Take a fucking look. I can go on.

*Tommy's last ten
*

 2006-02-04Shannon Landberg*58*-*10*-*3*

The Palace, Auburn Hills, Michigan, USAWTKO1010  time: 1:35 | referee: Dale Grable | judge: Eugene Acey | judge: Ron Cunningham | judge: Herman McKalpain 
 2005-07-30John Long*19*-*6*-*2*

Cobo Arena, Detroit, Michigan, USAWTKO910 referee: Ron Cunningham | 79-72 | 79-72 | 79-72 
 2000-04-08Uriah Grant*27*-*14*-*0*

Joe Louis Arena, Detroit, Michigan, USALRTD212 time: 3:00 | referee: Dale Grable 
International Boxing Organization cruiserweight title (supervisor: John W. Daddono)
 1999-04-10Nate Miller*30*-*6*-*0*

M.E.N. Arena, Manchester, Lancashire, United KingdomWUD1212x3 referee: John Coyle | judge: Paul Thomas 118-112 | judge: Roy Francis 117-112 | judge: John Rupert 118-111 
vacant International Boxing Organization cruiserweight title
 1998-11-06Jay Snyder*19*-*5*-*0*

Joe Louis Arena, Detroit, Michigan, USAWKO110 time: 1:28 | referee: Mills Lane | judge: Dario Chiarini | judge: John Chaulk | judge: Brad Wright 
 1997-01-31Ed Dalton*12*-*3*-*2*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWKO510 time: 2:47 | referee: Lou Moret | judge: Dick Young | judge: Marshall Walker | judge: Jose Cobian 
 1996-11-29Karl Willis*22*-*5*-*1*

Roanoke Civic Center, Roanoke, Virginia, USAWKO510 time: 2:45 
 1995-09-26Earl Butler*14*-*7*-*2*

The Palace, Auburn Hills, Michigan, USAWUD1010 referee: Sam Williams | judge: Bernard Teachout 97-91 | judge: Rosemary Grable 96-93 | judge: Glenn Hirch 97-91 
Butler down in the 2nd and 5th rounds.
 1995-03-31Lenny LaPaglia*36*-*8*-*0*

Detroit, Michigan, USAWTKO112 time: 2:55 | referee: Dale Grable | judge: Frank Brunette | judge: Frank Garza | judge: Dario Thiarini 
vacant World Boxing Union (Original 1995-2004) cruiserweight title
 1994-02-19Freddie Delgado*19*-*2*-*1*

Coliseum, Charlotte, North Carolina, USAWUD1212 referee: Laurence Cole | judge: Johnny Richardson 115-113 | judge: Leo Johnson 117-104 | judge: Murray Rosen 115-110  

*Floyd's last ten

*
 2013-09-14Saul Alvarez*42*-*0*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWMD1212  referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 116-112 | judge: C.J. Ross 114-114 | judge: Craig Metcalfe 117-111 
WBC light middleweight title (supervisor: Mauricio Sulaiman)
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Gilberto Jesus Mendoza)
 2013-05-04Robert Guerrero*31*-*1*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Robert Byrd | judge: Jerry Roth 117-111 | judge: Duane Ford 117-111 | judge: Julie Lederman 117-111 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman)
 2012-05-05Miguel Cotto*37*-*2*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-111 | judge: Dave Moretti 117-111 
WBA Super World light middleweight title (supervisor: Aurelio Fiengo)
vacant WBC Diamond light middleweight title
 2011-09-17Victor Ortiz*29*-*2*-*2*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWKO412 time: 2:59 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Jerry Roth | judge: Adalaide Byrd | judge: Glenn Trowbridge 
WBC welterweight title (supervisor: Jose Sulaiman)
Ortiz penalized 1 point in rd 4 for head-butt. Ortiz down rd 4.
 2010-05-01Shane Mosley*46*-*5*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Dave Moretti 119-109 | judge: Robert Hoyle 118-110 | judge: Adalaide Byrd 119-109 
 2009-09-19Juan Manuel Marquez*50*-*4*-*1*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Burt A. Clements 120-107 | judge: Dave Moretti 119-108 | judge: Bill Lerch 118-109 
Marquez down once in 2nd round
 2007-12-08Ricky Hatton*43*-*0*-*0*

MGM Grand, Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWTKO1012 time: 1:35 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Paul Smith 88-82 | judge: Dave Moretti 89-81 | judge: Burt A. Clements 89-81 
WBC welterweight title
 2007-05-05Oscar De La Hoya*38*-*4*-*0*

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWSD1212 referee: Kenny Bayless | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Jerry Roth 115-113 | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 113-115 
WBC light middleweight title
 2006-11-04Carlos Manuel Baldomir*43*-*9*-*6*

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212 referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 120-108 | judge: John Keane 120-108 | judge: Paul Smith 118-110 
WBC welterweight title
International Boxing Organization welterweight title
International Boxing Association welterweight title
 2006-04-08Zab Judah*34*-*3*-*0*

Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USAWUD1212
Read it and proceed in being butthurt.

Fab 4 is soooooooooo much better but yet the lose to lessor dudes and fought more bums than Floyd. Wake the fuck up.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.





Hands of Iron said:


> Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.





tliang1000 said:


> Most of Floyd's opponent that he beat went on to be become champion again and still fighting while the Fab 4's opponent's went back fighting tomato cans.
> 
> Don't believe me? Take a fucking look. I can go on.
> 
> ...


Not fair Benitez was drugged and Duran was having his 198th Birthday bash.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I do get what you're saying. May just isn't as good as Duran and Leonard in their achievements.


Out of respect i think people don't want to realize that Floyd has surpass the fab4 but he did.

The fab 4 fought each other. They were rivals, money matches. The same shit that Floyd has done. You look at who the Fab 4 has been fighting outside of each other, You will know that they fought majority bums. LOWER level than what Floyd's opponents has fought.

Outside of each other they fought a lot of bum and THEY LOST TO THEM.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oh wait we are talking about Duran vs Floyd now right?

Duran's last 10. WOW he sure bested Floyd.

2001-07-14Hector Camacho*73*-*4*-*2*

Pepsi Center, Denver, Colorado, USALUD1212  referee: Robert Ferrara | judge: Levi Martinez 112-114 | judge: Tyrone Short 108-118 | judge: Ed Kugler 108-118 
NBA Super Middleweight Title
 2000-08-12Patrick Goossen*19*-*2*-*0*

Yakama Legends Casino, Toppenish, Washington, USAWUD1010 referee: Mike Fisher | judge: Dennis Ryan 98-92 | judge: Bruce Siebol 98-94 | judge: Larry Cover 97-93 
 2000-06-16Pat Lawlor*22*-*10*-*0*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Juan Diaz, PanamaWUD1212 referee: Julio Cesar Alvarado | judge: Harmodio Cedeno 117-113 | judge: Marcos A. Torres 117-113 | judge: Arturo Sánchez 117-114 
*NBA Super Middleweight Title*
 1999-03-06Omar Eduardo Gonzalez*20*-*1*-*0*

Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires, ArgentinaLUD10101998-08-28William Joppy*25*-*1*-*1*

Las Vegas Hilton, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALTKO312 time: 2:54 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Duane Ford | judge: Cesar Ramos | judge: Derek Milham 
WBA World middleweight title
 1998-01-31Felix Jose Hernandez*10*-*5*-*1*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWUD1010 referee: Carlos Berrocal | judge: Marcos A. Torres 97-91 | judge: Arturo Sánchez 98-91 | judge: Harmodio Cedeno 97-91 
Duran was knocked down in 1st round.- Hernandez dropped in 4th and 8th rounds.-
 1997-11-15David Radford*14*-*9*-*2*

Carousel Casino, Hammanskraal, Gauteng, South AfricaWUD88 80-73 | 79-74 | 78-75 
 1997-06-14Jorge Fernando Castro*101*-*5*-*2*

Gimnasio Nuevo Panama, Panama City, PanamaWUD1010 referee: Carlos Berrocal | 97-95 | 97-95 | 97-95 
 1997-02-15Jorge Fernando Castro*100*-*5*-*2*

Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires, ArgentinaLUD1010 94-100 | 96-99 | 98-99 
 1996-09-27Mike Culbert*21*-*3*-*0*

Mountaineer Casino Racetrack and Resort, Chester, West Virginia, USAWTKO610 


----------



## Primadonna Kool (Jun 14, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Most of Floyd's opponent that he beat went on to be become champion again and still fighting while the Fab 4's opponent's went back fighting tomato cans.
> 
> Don't believe me? Take a fucking look. I can go on.
> 
> ...


The era of boxing back in the 80's was clearly more talented.

Its much easier to gain a world title these days, so that a irrelevant point.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yeah sure buddy. John long 19-6 would be 20-1 in today's standard. SURE

BC only guys back in the day train hard for a fight but not the slacking assholes we have today.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Remember when i said keep talking and keep patting each others' back before i expose all of you???

I guess you guys will have to go overtime in discrediting Floyd now.


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Benitez is great, but a few steps below Mayweather in ATGness. This whole Fab 4 nonsense needs to fucking stop though. I get it, we needed something post-Ali. But it's built up to so much. People don't even know if the fab 4 is actually Benitez or Hagler :conf
> 
> Why aren't Quartey, Delahoya, Carr, Trinidad getting the same star treatment?


Oscar is one of the most overrated boxers, no, one of the most overrated athletes in the history of sports. Oscar was exposed and showed up every time he fought top level competition - and still got many gifts in the process. Oscar is like Sven Ottke, getting gift decisions all the time. He is more overrated than Floyd and Manny combined, and that is quite a difficult accomplishment. Let's look at his "notable" career starting with Chavez because prior to that point he fought nobodies. He is not a top 55 pound for pound fighter, never could be, and that might be giving Oscar too much credit.1) Chavez - Chavez es cómo Oscar - sobrevalorado, Chavez peleó contra bums por todo su carrera. Chavez best wins are Haugen, Camacho, and 2 wins over Meldrick Taylor with one being a huge stroke of luck due to help from Richard Steele. Chavez could have been 200-0 but it does nothing to change the fact that he beat up taxi drivers throughout his career and has a padded record. Like Oscar, Chavez is more name value and myth than substance. Also, Chavez was way past his best having already been whipped by Pernell and Norwood. By the time he fought Oscar he was even worse than he was in his prime.2) Pernell Whitaker - Pernell crushed Oscar easy - despite having a point taken away - but the judges were blind. Oscar threw flurries at the end of the rounds to confuse the judges and make it seem like he was landing shots when Pernell was not touched at all. Pernell's jab landed more often than any of Oscar's flurries. Unfortunately for Pernell, because his defense was so good the judges overvalued the few times he did get hit - and those were very FEW times. Oscar got a gift decision and this is not a legit win. Considering that Pernell was near the end and Oscar in his prime that makes it worse. Just like when fat 38 year old past his prime Lennox dismantled the overrated bum Vitali in his prime.3) Hector Camacho - Camacho es cómo Chavez, el peleó contra bums por todo su carrera. Camacho never had a notable win. Beating a washed up Duran and a Ray Leonard coming off a 6 year hiatus is not notable. Got whipped by Greg Haugen and the fact that Camacho won the rematch isn't impressive because Haugen wasn't good to begin with.4) Ike Quartey - who did Quartey beat that made him such a great boxer? Not Vince Phillips - his best win.5) Felix Trinidad - it's not only important for someone to win a fight. What matters is how you win. And how did Oscar win the fight? By literally running away for the last 3 rounds. Good thing that Oscar got a taste of his own medicine and got robbed by the judges. For once the judges make Oscar pay for the gifts he received in his career. If you think that an all time great fighter is someone who literally runs away for 3 rounds in a championship fight then you are delusional. Mucho respeto a Tito porque el nunca peleó en una manera con falta de respeto por boxeo - como la suciedad que se llama Oscar.*6) Shane Mosley - Shane put 2 whippings on De La Hoya. Just like with Whitaker, when Oscar fights the cream of the crop he falls short (with the one exception of Trinidad - in which he didn't fight like a true champion). Even if the second fight was close, Oscar didn't convincingly win it.7) Arturo Gatti - Gatti has a great chin and that's about it. Outside of his exciting fights with Ward - a C level fighter - there is nothing notable about Gatti's career. Beating a C level fighter like Gatti doesn't make you elite.8. Fernando Vargas - Fernando es basura cómo Oscar. Yo reía cuando él perdía. Fernando's biggest claim to fame is beating an inexperienced Winky Wright. Whoop de doo another C level fighter that Oscar beat. But it makes sense for Oscar to fight Vargas because Oscar has never top level boxers without running away for 3 rounds.9) Ramon Campas - never beat anyone. Another can for Oscar10) Felix Sturm - wow Oscar got gifted a decision that he shouldn't have. What a surprise.*11) Bernard Hopkins - unlike Floyd Oscar and Manny, Bernard is an all time great fighter. And it showed when Bernard crushed Oscar's liver. Would have been even more enjoyable if the liver shot was as good as RJJ vs Virgil Hill. I don't care if Bernard is bigger. Did size stop Roberto Duran from moving up 2 classes and handing Ray Leonard his first loss? Skills pay the bills - not weight.12) Ricardo Mayorga - Miguel Cotto lo dijo en la manera mejor. "Después de la pelea de la sorpresa de Vernon Forrest, Ricardo Mayorga murío." Mayorga had his 15 minutes of fame from beating Forrest. That's it. This would not be a notable win on an all time great fighter's resume, but because Oscar's record is so weak it stands out more than it should.13) Floyd Mayweather - two overrated fighters going at it. Floyd clearly won the fight but - what a surprise - one judge was stupid enough to give Oscar the win. Thank God there were two competent judges or Oscar would be given a third gift decision.14) Manny Pacquiao - two overrated fighters going at it once again. And Oscar got exposed as the more overrated one.And there you have it. Oscar De La Basura. Despite winning 10 paper titles in 6 weight classes, Oscar has proven that that is simply due to the fact that he is the beneficiary of an era where there are four belts per class and paper champions galore. No wonder he won so many titles in so many classes - all the paper champions he won them from were bums. Oscar es un hombre y campeon falso. Nunca sería con los cincuento boxeadores mejores del tiempo, libra por libra. Oscar es un hombre falso y un campeon falso. Nunca sería uno de los cincuenta boxeadores mejores del tiempo, libra por libra y nunca podría ser. Es un pocho de basura y suciedad.I know certain people who are sheep following the herd behind Oscar have prepared fallacious arguments to defend him, so I will dismantle those arguments right away1) Oscar rightfully beat Pernell and got robbed vs Mosley and Trinidad - Regarding Pernell, if you believe Oscar won then you don't know how to judge. Regarding Shane - a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then and one win over Shane Mosley after previously losing to him doesnt up your stock much. Regarding Tito - Oscar ran away for 3 rounds. That's not something a true p4p great would do. Don't forget that Sturm also whipped Oscar2) Oscar has 10 titles in 6 classes - so what? There are 4 titles per class so being a champion doesn't hold much value. Looking at the gift decisions he got and the weak opposition he legitimately beat, that's not impressive. It doesn't matter if he has 20 belts in 20 classes - if he fought bums and paper champs it holds little value.3) Well Oscar fought the best so even if he lost he is one of the best - No. Canelo Alvarez fought the best in Floyd Mayweather - does that make him one of the best? No. It's not impressive to fight the best if you keep losing - in the sense that Oscar is not a top level boxer.What has been written is IRREFUTABLE UNDENIABLE INDISPUTABLE UNCONTESTABLE NONSUBJECTIVE UNQUESTIONABLE FLAWLESS FACT (not opinion or conjecture in the slightest). If anyone can disprove this magnanimous insight of my wisdom, I will respond and acknowledge my mistake. Unfortunately, no competent human being can deny the undeniable, and therefore there is no chance of disproving the facts stated above. By extension - the chances of receiving my response are negligible.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

:rofl :rofl

I'm sure @DirtyDan can translate


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> :lol: What? Seems like that bee KO'd your rear-end


You keep trying to take shots at SRL's win over Hearns. It's ridiculous and you know it. :lol: :twisted


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You keep trying to take shots at SRL's win over Hearns. It's ridiculous and you know it. :lol: :twisted


Read the post in context ! He was taking away from Greb Tunney FFS


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Read the post in context ! He was taking away from Greb Tunney FFS


I just wish you wouldn't do it, cause youre also taking away from Roberto(e)'s win INDIRECTLY and I don't like that. :rofl


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Read the post in context ! He was taking away from Greb Tunney FFS


KLOMPTON took away from that win more than anybody else.


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> :rofl :rofl
> 
> I'm sure @DirtyDan can translate


I think changing it from paragraphs to a single chunk made it better.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.





Hands of Iron said:


> Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.





Hands of Iron said:


> KLOMPTON took away from that win more than anybody else.


Great fucking book.

Any LW beating a WW great is as great as it comes, almost as great as it comes babe!

Chavez got that ass whooped by Pea and Oskee. But he beat good fighters along the way. He beat a gold medalist yeah? A young one


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Great fucking book.
> 
> Any LW beating a WW great is as great as it comes, almost as great as it comes babe!
> 
> Chavez got that ass whooped by Pea and Oskee. But he beat good fighters along the way. He beat a gold medalist yeah? A young one


I never diss Oscar.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I never diss Oscar.


You never Big up him though :-(


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> You never Big up him though :-(


Somewhat

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?34724-Was-De-La-Hoya-s-retirement-premature/page2


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Somewhat
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?34724-Was-De-La-Hoya-s-retirement-premature/page2


Christ. I lift heavier sentiments picking up my dick.

He is a G


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Chavez beat up an Olympian yeah? I know he did before his WW RUN


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Christ. I lift heavier sentiments picking up my dick.
> 
> He is a G


Pretty jaw dropping level of opposition. I think hating on him is pretty much inexcusable.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Pretty jaw dropping level of opposition. I think hating on him is pretty much inexcusable.


In our era? Shit is unthinkable. And won't be matched


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I never diss Oscar.


is this real life


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Why aren't Quartey, Delahoya, Carr, Trinidad getting the same star treatment?


Because those guys straight up dont touch the level of ATGness the fab 5 have, honestly. There's nothing wrong with rating those mothafuckas highly. They are some of the best boxers ever. The guys you listed wouldnt fall into that category except DLH who is the atg out of that bunch.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Chavez beat up an Olympian yeah? I know he did before his WW RUN


Yeah....


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Because those guys straight up dont touch the level of ATGness the fab 5 have, honestly. There's nothing wrong with rating those mothafuckas highly. They are some of the best boxers ever. The guys you listed wouldnt fall into that category except DLH who is the atg out of that bunch.


Sorry TG I was just making a heated point


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Sorry TG I was just making a heated point


It's true though. Oskee is it. Trinidad's resume actually ain't that hot either...


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Because those guys straight up dont touch the level of ATGness the fab 5 have, honestly. There's nothing wrong with rating those mothafuckas highly. They are some of the best boxers ever. The guys you listed wouldnt fall into that category except DLH who is the atg out of that bunch.


Oscar would probably beat Duran's ass. I wouldn't be surprise. Oscar got an iron chin, who the hell ever ko Oscar with a head shot?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Yeah....


Sorry. His name was funny


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's true though. Oskee is it. Trinidad's resume actually ain't that hot either...


Easily outclassing Trinidad. Checkhook before Floyd even hit mainstream :yep


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Oscar would probably beat Duran's ass. I wouldn't be surprise. Oscar got an iron chin, who the hell ever ko Oscar with a head shot?


Oh shut the fuck up.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Oscar would probably beat Duran's ass. I wouldn't be surprise. Oscar got an iron chin, who the hell ever ko Oscar with a head shot?


Please no.

I doubt Duran beats Mosley at 135 let alone Oscar, even any higher.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Easily outclassing Trinidad. Checkhook before Floyd even hit mainstream :yep


Trinidad is rated more for his ability I think, which was pretty considerable really. You can't deny the dude was getting enormous hype himself though.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Oh shut the fuck up.


You shut the fuck up bitch.
I'm not a following pussy like you.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Oscar is much naturally bigger than Duran. 5'4 Dejesus was able to drop Duran but 5'10 big frame Oscar can't drop Duran with his left hook? Give me a break. Some of your logic doesn't fucking work. Turn the bitch on. Joppy ko Duran in 3. That bum Joppy. That is not acceptable. Duran suppose to be god of war here.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Trinidad is rated more for his ability I think, which was pretty considerable really. You can't deny the dude was getting enormous hype himself though.


'Up there with Ray Robinson' - Foreman and Merchant

2:50






Insane @DirtyDan


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You shut the fuck up bitch.
> I'm not a following pussy like you.


No but you are a complete retard. Dlh over duran at 147? Ill take duran of the srl/Palomino fights to completely outclass oscar. And so would most people. I like dlh but he cant fuck with duran.


----------



## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

... Well outside of Leonard, Hagler, and Hearns, a prime Oscar might be the best that Duran ever fought against. 

Hmm...


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Trinidad is rated more for his ability I think, which was pretty considerable really. You can't deny the dude was getting enormous hype himself though.


Tito was obviously the real deal. Poor management though. He was so good. The bob, hook, the right, hook, the jab hook. :err


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> No but you are a complete retard. Dlh over duran at 147? Ill take duran of the srl/Palomino fights to completely outclass oscar. And so would most people. I like dlh but he cant fuck with duran.


You are fucking retard. I said i wouldn't be surprise.
Get over the hype already. The man is not unbeatable. He ain't Floyd Mayweather Jr's level. Don't cry too hard accepting that reality.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> 'Up there with Ray Robinson' - Foreman and Merchant
> 
> 2:50
> 
> ...


Why always @DirtyDan What about @Blanco lol


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Fab4 are kobe byrants
Floyd Jr is Michael Jordan now stop crying already.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

This guy is using the joppy fight as a legitimate argument? Really?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why always @DirtyDan What about @Blanco lol


Both?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> This guy is using the joppy fight as a legitimate argument? Really?


And why the hell not? According to you and some others on here that he is LEVELS ahead of Floyd. You see Floyd losing to joppy level fighters? Explain yourself.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You are fucking retard. I said i wouldn't be surprise.
> Get over the hype already. The man is not unbeatable. He ain't Floyd Mayweather Jr's level. Don't cry too hard accepting that reality.


Just because you say it doesnt make it reality :lol:

Nobody said hes unbeatable. Still good enough to beat dlh, and be a legitimate favorite


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Duran was shot against joppy, prime duran would never lose to anyone the level of vinny paz or joppu, this is common knowledge.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Just because you say it doesnt make it reality :lol:
> 
> Nobody said hes unbeatable. Still good enough to beat dlh, and be a legitimate favorite


Yeah i'm not convinced. Duran got beat 16 times and lost to some B and C level fighters. Oscar only got 6 and he lost to A level fighters.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Duran was shot against joppy, prime duran would never lose to anyone the level of vinny paz or joppu, this is common knowledge.


I don't give a shit if he is shot or not. He is suppose to be LEVELS above Floyd. LEVELS above Oscar. Bhop is shot and he is still beating Prime guys. Floyd is fighting in this twilight years and he just beat an undefeated in prime, bigger than him by 25lbs kid.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I don't give a shit if he is shot or not. He is suppose to be LEVELS above Floyd. LEVELS above Oscar. Bhop is shot and he is still beating Prime guys. Floyd is fighting in this twilight years and he just beat an undefeated in prime, bigger than him by 25lbs kid.


B-Hop is beating prime guys, but he's clearly limited by his age, picking up losses on the way. And he's not amassing a record upward of 70 fights. Floyd is far from past it, he's just not at his physical peak.

Jones is levels above most in his prime, is he suddenly to be discredited for his accomplishments for a series of past-prime losses?

What top win of any of the Fab 4 is lesser than fucking Canelo? Seriously, Canelo. Big and prime only gets you so far. Lots of fighters are big and prime. Doesn't mean they're historically hot shit.

Here you are bitching again that we don't hold Floyd above the fab 4, with no fucking good reason for your flomo tears. His resume isn't as good. Just shut the fuck up and accept that the adults are talking and have hijacked this thread.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> B-Hop is beating prime guys, but he's clearly limited by his age, picking up losses on the way. And he's not amassing a record upward of 70 fights. Floyd is far from past it, he's just not at his physical peak.
> 
> Jones is levels above most in his prime, is he suddenly to be discredited for his accomplishments for a series of past-prime losses?
> 
> ...


Bitching and bullshitting is what you do Bozo. I bet it kills you when you hear Floyd is just more talented and better fighter huh. Don't cry too hard.
SRL was impressed with how Floyd dismantle the kid but not you. I forgot that you know more than everyone LMAO.

Hey here is a more logical explanation... Duran is just simply not as good as Floyd. Floyd can fight in his 40s and still not lose to the likes of Joppy. Again don't cry too hard.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> 01. Oskee
> 02. Superman Jones
> 03. Money May


Alrite


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> B-Hop is beating prime guys, but he's clearly limited by his age, picking up losses on the way. And he's not amassing a record upward of 70 fights. Floyd is far from past it, he's just not at his physical peak.
> 
> Jones is levels above most in his prime, is he suddenly to be discredited for his accomplishments for a series of past-prime losses?
> 
> ...


Duran couldn't land right hand leads though.

:-(


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.





Hands of Iron said:


> Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.





Hands of Iron said:


> Alrite


There are so many guys I wanna fanboy on but I refuse to be "old timer" nuthugger. FFS look at Barney Ross, Mclarnin, Rosenbloom, Flowers, Johnson, Burley, Walker. :suicide Fuck it

I feel like people think I'm already a dick. Imagine a turbodick with twoheads :err :hey


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> There are so many guys I wanna fanboy on but I refuse to be "old timer" nuthugger. FFS look at Barney Ross, Mclarnin, Rosenbloom, Flowers, Johnson, Burley, Walker. :suicide Fuck it
> 
> I feel like people think I'm already a dick. Imagine a turbodick with twoheads :err :hey


I'm always

01. Iron Mike
02. Robearto(e)
03. [Optional Insert]

Some days that's even Floyd. Not lately though.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I'm always
> 
> 01. Iron Mike
> 02. Robearto(e)
> ...


Fixed.

I can roost until dawn but there isn't the footage to support my fandom these days.

Usually its just me taking the piss out of the GOATS :lol: But it'll always be Oskee, JJ, Lennox, Ali etc.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bitching and bullshitting is what you do Bozo.


No, I make claims and back them up with evidence because I'm familiar with the era in question (something you have readily admitted you are not).



tliang1000 said:


> I bet it kills you when you hear Floyd is just more talented and better fighter huh.


No, I laugh :lol: As if a faded De La Hoya is the greatest win of all time or something. "omg those pull-counters! that defense! TBE!!" :rofl



tliang1000 said:


> Don't cry too hard.


Seriously it makes me laugh. I really do enjoy coming in here and periodically watching you embarrass yourself, running from one excuse to the next.

"Cervantes was a bum" (ah shit turns out he's an ATG) 
"Who beat P4P #1 fighters like that" (ah fuck Leonard beat like 8 in 4 years)

It's great.



tliang1000 said:


> SRL was impressed with how Floyd dismantle the kid but not you. I forgot that you know more than everyone LMAO.


Oh really? Show me where I said I wasn't impressed. Quote me. Go ahead, I'll wait.

If I wasn't impressed, why would I make this thread, breaking down the fight piece by piece and praising Floyd's versatility?

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?18957-My-Favorite-Mayweather-Tricks-Against-Canelo

And say this?



Bogotazo said:


> Canelo was probably my favorite performance from Floyd.


This is what you can't seem to fathom. It's not about who I like. It's about who beat the better fighters. So again, I'll ask you: what top win that the fab 4 hold is any worse than Canelo? Answer this question.



Bogotazo said:


> Hey here is a more logical explanation... Duran is just simply not as good as Floyd.


Beats the much better fighters but isn't as good? Yeah, makes perfect sense :lol:



Bogotazo said:


> Floyd can fight in his 40s and still not lose to the likes of Joppy. Again don't cry too hard.


Because Floyd will not have spent his life fighting the Leonards, Haglers, and Hearns of the world, garnering 70 KOs (let alone fights) in the process. Although I like how you're reduced for arguing for something Floyd hasn't even done with to try and put Duran down :rofl

Duran and Leonard beat the better fighters. The Fab 4 did. Until you have an actual argument as to why that isn't true, fuck off.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.





Hands of Iron said:


> Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.





turbotime said:


> Fixed.
> 
> I can roost until dawn but there isn't the footage to support my fandom these days.
> 
> Usually its just me taking the piss out of the GOATS :lol: But it'll always be Oskee, JJ, Lennox, Ali etc.


Scrap Lenny. then Armstrong, Money, Greb, Williams, Mosley, etc.

Why doesn't greb have a film yet?!


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> No, I make claims and back them up with evidence because I'm familiar with the era in question (something you have readily admitted you are not).
> 
> No, I laugh :lol: As if a faded De La Hoya is the greatest win of all time or something. "omg those pull-counters! that defense! TBE!!" :rofl
> 
> ...


Blah Blah Blah. Something about you provide evidence and I don't.
Blah blah blah, excuses making 
Blah Blah blah, you are trying to save face and etc.

How's that for a quick summary of what you are trying to say?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Blah Blah Blah. Something about you provide evidence and I don't.


Right, which is the truth. Feel free to contest this at any time with a rational argument.



tliang1000 said:


> Blah blah blah, excuses making


What am I excusing? I'm not excusing anyone. The Fab 4 have greater resumes, and you can't argue against it. Every time you try, you fall flat on your face.



tliang1000 said:


> Blah Blah blah, you are trying to save face and etc.


Save face for what? Nobody here agrees with you and you haven't made an argument. That's why instead of arguing, you say "blah blah blah". Because you don't know shit and just want Floyd to be considered TBE JUST BECAUSE.



tliang1000 said:


> How's that for a quick summary of what you are trying to say?


Fairly poor, but what can I expect with your primitive understanding of boxing and the written language?


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Imagine a turbodick with twoheads :err :hey


Ok remember the other day I thought one of your comments was greater than 0 on the kinsey scale...


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Imagine a turbodick with twoheads :err :hey


:rofl ops


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Right, which is the truth. Feel free to contest this at any time with a rational argument.
> 
> What am I excusing? I'm not excusing anyone. The Fab 4 have greater resumes, and you can't argue against it. Every time you try, you fall flat on your face.
> 
> ...


you are clearly delusional if you think that i haven't provided examples to support my arguments.

Getting people to agree with you is your goal, not mine. I could careless. You can try to bully gullible fools into not having an opinion so you can brainwash your pov to people.

*Again you are clearly delusional and you need to take your meds if you think that i've not put up an argument. 
*


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> Ok remember the other day I thought one of your comments was greater than 0 on the kinsey scale...


No


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl ops


:rofl :rofl

:hey


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> you are clearly delusional if you think that i haven't provided examples to support my arguments.


Really? What were they? Any piss poor example you tried to bring up, was utterly ridiculed.



tliang1000 said:


> Getting people to agree with you is your goal, not mine. I could careless. You can try to bully gullible fools into not having an opinion so you can brainwash your pov to people.


My goal is to make you understand that you're full of shit (although you're so deluded I'm content with just laughing at you). You say you're not familiar with an era, then make statements about the opposition of fighters from that era, and make vague unspecific statements to try and prop up Floyd as more accomplished than the Fab 4, which have no basis in fact.

I don't brainwash people, they just all happen to disagree with you.



tliang1000 said:


> *Again you are clearly delusional and you need to take your meds if you think that i've not put up an argument.
> *


Again, you've offered no explanation for the following:



Bogotazo said:


> *A faded De La Hoya is not a better fighter or win than an undefeated Benitez, Roberto Duran, undefeated Tommy Hearns, or Marvin Hagler.
> Cotto is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler.
> Hatton is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler.
> Corrales is not better than Benitez, Duran, Hearns, or Hagler.
> ...


Explain how any of Floyd's best wins are better than any of Leonard's, based on resume and ability. If you reply with your usual "blah blah" bullshit, I'll assume you've finally conceded defeat.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.





Hands of Iron said:


> Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.





Bogotazo said:


> Really? What were they? Any piss poor example you tried to bring up, was utterly ridiculed.
> 
> My goal is to make you understand that you're full of shit (although you're so deluded I'm content with just laughing at you). You say you're not familiar with an era, then make statements about the opposition of fighters from that era, and make vague unspecific statements to try and prop up Floyd as more accomplished than the Fab 4, which have no basis in fact.
> 
> ...


No one's best win in the sport touches Leonard over Hagler. Nope. None.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Really? What were they? Any piss poor example you tried to bring up, was utterly ridiculed.
> 
> My goal is to make you understand that you're full of shit (although you're so deluded I'm content with just laughing at you). You say you're not familiar with an era, then make statements about the opposition of fighters from that era, and make vague unspecific statements to try and prop up Floyd as more accomplished than the Fab 4, which have no basis in fact.
> 
> ...


Listen you lazy eyed prick. I am not repeating myself to your butt-hurting ass just so you can steer yourself back into a debate. 
Everything that was talked about is already in this thread. You can have fun *re quoting* everything and everyone ALL OVER AGAIN if you like crazy retard.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

It is amazing that this whinny bitch act like his opinion on fantasy match ups are facts LMAO. How full it can one be?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Listen you lazy eyed prick. I am not repeating myself to your butt-hurting ass just so you can steer yourself back into a debate.
> Everything that was talked about is already in this thread. You can have fun *re quoting* everything and everyone ALL OVER AGAIN if you like crazy retard.


You admit defeat, finally. Thanks for playing, better luck next time.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> No one's best win in the sport touches Leonard over Hagler. Nope. None.


Hagler had definitely faded alot by that point and leonard knew it. Hagler was just a slugger at that point of time.

Tbh imo rn Id rank ali over foreman above that since foreman was at the top of his game


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I consider Leonard beating Hagler the best win in history.

Hagler had just stopped his number 1 contender and Leonard was basically retired for 5 years.

Phenomenal stuff.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Crazy right? It took a middleweight to do what dempsey couldnt.





Hands of Iron said:


> Who did Chavez and Nelson beat at welter and lightweight respectively prior to losing to Whitaker? Basically nobody at all. Hearns at least blasted a handful of contenders on top of the Cuevas obliteration. And those guys have got no standing there H2H either, weren't even close to the level of fighter 147 Hearns was. Chavez, at his best in the mid to late 80's is up there. Not in 1993.





Luf said:


> I consider Leonard beating Hagler the best win in history.
> 
> Hagler had just stopped his number 1 contender and Leonard was basically retired for 5 years.
> 
> Phenomenal stuff.


:deal :happy


----------



## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why always @DirtyDan What about @Blanco lol


Why am I getting @ here?


----------



## LittleRed (Jun 4, 2013)

LittleRed said:


> Oscar is one of the most overrated boxers, no, one of the most overrated athletes in the history of sports. Oscar was exposed and showed up every time he fought top level competition - and still got many gifts in the process. Oscar is like Sven Ottke, getting gift decisions all the time. He is more overrated than Floyd and Manny combined, and that is quite a difficult accomplishment. Let's look at his "notable" career starting with Chavez because prior to that point he fought nobodies. He is not a top 55 pound for pound fighter, never could be, and that might be giving Oscar too much credit.1) Chavez - Chavez es cómo Oscar - sobrevalorado, Chavez peleó contra bums por todo su carrera. Chavez best wins are Haugen, Camacho, and 2 wins over Meldrick Taylor with one being a huge stroke of luck due to help from Richard Steele. Chavez could have been 200-0 but it does nothing to change the fact that he beat up taxi drivers throughout his career and has a padded record. Like Oscar, Chavez is more name value and myth than substance. Also, Chavez was way past his best having already been whipped by Pernell and Norwood. By the time he fought Oscar he was even worse than he was in his prime.2) Pernell Whitaker - Pernell crushed Oscar easy - despite having a point taken away - but the judges were blind. Oscar threw flurries at the end of the rounds to confuse the judges and make it seem like he was landing shots when Pernell was not touched at all. Pernell's jab landed more often than any of Oscar's flurries. Unfortunately for Pernell, because his defense was so good the judges overvalued the few times he did get hit - and those were very FEW times. Oscar got a gift decision and this is not a legit win. Considering that Pernell was near the end and Oscar in his prime that makes it worse. Just like when fat 38 year old past his prime Lennox dismantled the overrated bum Vitali in his prime.3) Hector Camacho - Camacho es cómo Chavez, el peleó contra bums por todo su carrera. Camacho never had a notable win. Beating a washed up Duran and a Ray Leonard coming off a 6 year hiatus is not notable. Got whipped by Greg Haugen and the fact that Camacho won the rematch isn't impressive because Haugen wasn't good to begin with.4) Ike Quartey - who did Quartey beat that made him such a great boxer? Not Vince Phillips - his best win.5) Felix Trinidad - it's not only important for someone to win a fight. What matters is how you win. And how did Oscar win the fight? By literally running away for the last 3 rounds. Good thing that Oscar got a taste of his own medicine and got robbed by the judges. For once the judges make Oscar pay for the gifts he received in his career. If you think that an all time great fighter is someone who literally runs away for 3 rounds in a championship fight then you are delusional. Mucho respeto a Tito porque el nunca peleó en una manera con falta de respeto por boxeo - como la suciedad que se llama Oscar.*6) Shane Mosley - Shane put 2 whippings on De La Hoya. Just like with Whitaker, when Oscar fights the cream of the crop he falls short (with the one exception of Trinidad - in which he didn't fight like a true champion). Even if the second fight was close, Oscar didn't convincingly win it.7) Arturo Gatti - Gatti has a great chin and that's about it. Outside of his exciting fights with Ward - a C level fighter - there is nothing notable about Gatti's career. Beating a C level fighter like Gatti doesn't make you elite.8. Fernando Vargas - Fernando es basura cómo Oscar. Yo reía cuando él perdía. Fernando's biggest claim to fame is beating an inexperienced Winky Wright. Whoop de doo another C level fighter that Oscar beat. But it makes sense for Oscar to fight Vargas because Oscar has never top level boxers without running away for 3 rounds.9) Ramon Campas - never beat anyone. Another can for Oscar10) Felix Sturm - wow Oscar got gifted a decision that he shouldn't have. What a surprise.*11) Bernard Hopkins - unlike Floyd Oscar and Manny, Bernard is an all time great fighter. And it showed when Bernard crushed Oscar's liver. Would have been even more enjoyable if the liver shot was as good as RJJ vs Virgil Hill. I don't care if Bernard is bigger. Did size stop Roberto Duran from moving up 2 classes and handing Ray Leonard his first loss? Skills pay the bills - not weight.12) Ricardo Mayorga - Miguel Cotto lo dijo en la manera mejor. "Después de la pelea de la sorpresa de Vernon Forrest, Ricardo Mayorga murío." Mayorga had his 15 minutes of fame from beating Forrest. That's it. This would not be a notable win on an all time great fighter's resume, but because Oscar's record is so weak it stands out more than it should.13) Floyd Mayweather - two overrated fighters going at it. Floyd clearly won the fight but - what a surprise - one judge was stupid enough to give Oscar the win. Thank God there were two competent judges or Oscar would be given a third gift decision.14) Manny Pacquiao - two overrated fighters going at it once again. And Oscar got exposed as the more overrated one.And there you have it. Oscar De La Basura. Despite winning 10 paper titles in 6 weight classes, Oscar has proven that that is simply due to the fact that he is the beneficiary of an era where there are four belts per class and paper champions galore. No wonder he won so many titles in so many classes - all the paper champions he won them from were bums. Oscar es un hombre y campeon falso. Nunca sería con los cincuento boxeadores mejores del tiempo, libra por libra. Oscar es un hombre falso y un campeon falso. Nunca sería uno de los cincuenta boxeadores mejores del tiempo, libra por libra y nunca podría ser. Es un pocho de basura y suciedad.I know certain people who are sheep following the herd behind Oscar have prepared fallacious arguments to defend him, so I will dismantle those arguments right away1) Oscar rightfully beat Pernell and got robbed vs Mosley and Trinidad - Regarding Pernell, if you believe Oscar won then you don't know how to judge. Regarding Shane - a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then and one win over Shane Mosley after previously losing to him doesnt up your stock much. Regarding Tito - Oscar ran away for 3 rounds. That's not something a true p4p great would do. Don't forget that Sturm also whipped Oscar2) Oscar has 10 titles in 6 classes - so what? There are 4 titles per class so being a champion doesn't hold much value. Looking at the gift decisions he got and the weak opposition he legitimately beat, that's not impressive. It doesn't matter if he has 20 belts in 20 classes - if he fought bums and paper champs it holds little value.3) Well Oscar fought the best so even if he lost he is one of the best - No. Canelo Alvarez fought the best in Floyd Mayweather - does that make him one of the best? No. It's not impressive to fight the best if you keep losing - in the sense that Oscar is not a top level boxer.What has been written is IRREFUTABLE UNDENIABLE INDISPUTABLE UNCONTESTABLE NONSUBJECTIVE UNQUESTIONABLE FLAWLESS FACT (not opinion or conjecture in the slightest). If anyone can disprove this magnanimous insight of my wisdom, I will respond and acknowledge my mistake. Unfortunately, no competent human being can deny the undeniable, and therefore there is no chance of disproving the facts stated above. By extension - the chances of receiving my response are negligible.


You were called in for this @Blanco


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Luf said:


> I consider Leonard beating Hagler the best win in history.
> 
> Hagler had just stopped his number 1 contender and Leonard was basically retired for 5 years.
> 
> Phenomenal stuff.


Definitely.


----------



## Sister Sledge (Oct 22, 2012)

I think Leonard would have outworked him, but not knocked him out.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Ali over Foreman, Foreman coming off destroying an ATG Frazier.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

JMP said:


> @Hands of Iron


Miss you bruh.
@Bogotazo Why is he banned?? ^^


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?





PityTheFool said:


> What he's saying is that he knows fuck all about boxing .You should know that by now my friend.


This was a good thread. :rofl 130+ posts from me, WTF.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Miss you bruh.
> 
> @Bogotazo Why is he banned?? ^^


Requested ban


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> When they got in the ring the humble Leonard will be gone, and Floyd would be screwed


SRL beats Floyd. Hell an old Mosley had Floyd realllllly wobbly. I think SRL shakes Floyd up somewhat similarly early on, possibly even a KD, but he wins a close decision (possibly even SD) because Floyd would likely disarm SRL somewhat in the last 1/3 of the fight and win most of those rounds. My honest opinion on the fight...Floyd's got enough of a chin and definitely enough defense to keep himself out of harms way (to me at least)


----------



## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Sister Sledge said:


> I think Leonard would have outworked him, but not knocked him out.


I see it about the same myself. SRL starts off strong and maybe even scores a KD, but Floyd isn't able to adjust enough in time and loses a close decision


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> SRL is extremely humble and honest. About catching Duran at the right time. About what his brother said to him and that SRL as a fighter can ko Floyd but but in reality he probably wouldn't win.


SRL doesn't mind others thinking FMJ could beat him, then he shouldn't mind me thinking that he could beat floyd.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> @Hands,
> 
> I definitely feel Floyd last 10 opponents is comparable to that SRL segment.
> Sure you can make some excuses for JMM being smaller, Oscar and Shane being older but they were all in the top 10 p4p and coming off big wins at the time.
> ...


Sorry Tiang.Floyd's fighting tonight and I'm not looking to restart this long and emphatically dealt with debate.

But can you clarify what that middle sentence means for me please?
I don't want to go back through the whole thread and I know there may be a previous post explaining it,but I'm not sure if you mean Ray's best win was Hearns (which I have too) or Benitez?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?





Bogotazo said:


> Requested ban





PityTheFool said:


> Sorry Tiang.Floyd's fighting tonight and I'm not looking to restart this long and emphatically dealt with debate.
> 
> But can you clarify what that middle sentence means for me please?
> I don't want to go back through the whole thread and I know there may be a previous post explaining it,but I'm not sure if you mean Ray's best win was Hearns (which I have too) or Benitez?


I have it:

01. Hearns (32-0)
02. Benitez (38-0)
03. Hagler (62-2)
04. Duran (72-1)
05. Kalule (36-0)

Heavily based on circumstances and abilities at the times fought. Technically, you'd probably put Hagler and Duran in the top two but I drop them for the sake of grievances. Hearns and Benitez were as good as they'd ever be at 147 lbs at the times fought, can really get fucked trying to level any kind of excuses.


----------



## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

He'd beat Floyd Mayweather.

In fact, he'd put a beating on Floyd.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Fab4 are kobe byrants
> Floyd Jr is Michael Jordan now stop crying already.


Damn tliang! I really don't want to argue with you but this kind of post is insane.
Floyd is Iverson or Kobe to Duran's Larry Bird,To Hearns' Magic,Hagler's Bill Russell and Ray's MJ.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?





Bogotazo said:


> Requested ban





PityTheFool said:


> Damn tliang! I really don't want to argue with you but this kind of post is insane.
> Floyd is Iverson or Kobe to Duran's Larry Bird,To Hearns' Magic,Hagler's Bill Russell and Ray's MJ.


Wake up and goto the other Fab 4 thread. I'm in there arguing for you FFS.


----------



## Mr Magic (Jun 3, 2013)

Floyd Mayweather wouldn't even fight the best of his era.

Leonard fought AND BEAT Duran,Benitez,Hagler and Hearns.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I have it:
> 
> 01. Hearns (32-0)
> 02. Benitez (38-0)
> ...


This fucking phone! This is my SEVENTH attempt to answer here and that fucking colour scheme problem is becoming a frequent pain!

Anyway,the thread title reminds me of the National Enquirer,where you see a headline saying "Kim and Kanye's marriage on the verge?"
When the truth is they were filmed in a store mildly debating which flavour of ice cream to get.

I'm scared to start putting my list down again as I've got as far as four twice only to lose it so I'll do it later on laptop.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Wake up and goto the other Fab 4 thread. I'm in there arguing for you FFS.


Read my previous answer in this thread and you'll see why I'm stuck on this one.

Saw -ray!!! :cry


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?





Bogotazo said:


> Requested ban





PityTheFool said:


> Read my previous answer in this thread and you'll see why I'm stuck on this one.
> 
> Saw -ray!!! :cry


Nah. :lol:

Sorry for repeatedly quoting you Bogo. I'm too lazy to unclick the multi quote boxes.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nah. :lol:
> 
> Sorry for repeatedly quoting you Bogo. I'm too lazy to unclick the multi quote boxes.


Oh ok, I was confused. A lot of your quotes make a lot more sense now.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> What the fuck are you even saying? Seriously? If Hearns and Hagler been more popular, Leonard's record wouldn't be impressive? What? What are you saying?





Bogotazo said:


> Requested ban





Bogotazo said:


> Oh ok, I was confused. A lot of your quotes make a lot more sense now.


:rofl

I have to admit, the thought of you repeatedly receiving a notification of being a quoted in a thread with posts not directed at you, and you still coming to check it out is... mildly amusing.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> 
> I have to admit, the thought of you repeatedly receiving a notification of being a quoted in a thread with posts not directed at you, and you still coming to check it out is... mildly amusing.


I thought you just loved bringing things up again and again for context :conf

To be honest, I've never used multi-quote. I just cut and paste. Maybe I've been missing out.


----------



## Kolya (Mar 30, 2014)

tliang1000 said:


> I think SRL is a great fighter and one of the best resumes which i think tops Floyd on paper. Accomplishments? Floyd has surpassed him and i'm not knocking SRL.
> 
> SRL has always been a honest guy. This is not the first time that he admitted catching Duran at the right time. Not the first time that he admitted that he fought the wrong fight against Duran in their first fight. He even admitted that Hearns should've gotten the W instead of the draw.
> 
> SRL got one of the most impressive resumes on paper. Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Wilfred were all great fighters but in reality he only beaten Wilfred clearly in their prime. Duran and SRL? Hearns and SRL? Hagler and SRL? SRL benefited a lot from his popularity.


Crack is a hell of a drug man. Also get the fuck out of here. SRL stopping Hearns isn't a clear win? Fuck off.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Kolya said:


> Crack is a hell of a drug man. Also get the fuck out of here. SRL stopping Hearns isn't a clear win? Fuck off.


Leonard retired from boxing so he wouldn't have to rematch Hearns. He knows he got lucky


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Yeah but that was the 70's and 80's man.
> Don't you know that means nothing to certain people? And Floyd could have held his own back then,but we'll never know and in all probability(and we're both Floyd fans) he wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as he is today.
> Don't you just love how people talk about Leonard getting Hagler "old" when he himself was already 5 years past prime and Hagler was top 2 or 3 P4P?:lol:


Hagler was #1 at the time.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Hagler was #1 [/URL] at the time.


Has there ever been another fighter in the history of boxing who was simultaneously rated #1 P4P and shot ?


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Herol Graham would have beaten Hagler if Marv took his mandatory.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Has there ever been another fighter in the history of boxing who was simultaneously rated #1 [/URL] P4P and shot ?


Duran in New Orleans, November 1980. @Bogotazo

KO Magazine also had Hearns #1 ahead of the first SRL fight in 1981. That would make three #1 P4P fighters Leonard beat. You've also got Benitez in there who certainly would've been easy Top 5 at the time.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Duran in New Orleans, November 1980. @Bogotazo
> 
> KO Magazine also had Hearns #1 ahead of the first SRL fight in 1981. That would make three #1 P4P fighters Leonard beat. You've also got Benitez in there who certainly would've been easy Top 5 at the time.


I think Leonard was the underdog in the first Hearns fight.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

@Duran 


(He deserved a mention)


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> I think Leonard was the underdog in the first Hearns fight.


He was.



Bogotazo said:


> @Duran
> 
> (He deserved a mention)


I actually bumped this and quoted Pity to see if it would bring him back into the fold. Have you heard from him at all within the last few weeks? Utterly MIA. You should know what's up more than anybody.






What a jam.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

I actually haven't. A few days ago he said something though, I thought I saw him.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> SRL beats Floyd. Hell an old Mosley had Floyd realllllly wobbly. I think SRL shakes Floyd up somewhat similarly early on, possibly even a KD, but he wins a close decision (possibly even SD) because Floyd would likely disarm SRL somewhat in the last 1/3 of the fight and win most of those rounds. My honest opinion on the fight...Floyd's got enough of a chin and definitely enough defense to keep himself out of harms way (to me at least)


I go with SRL all the way. Faster than Floyd, harder hitter and lots of fight in him when the chips were down.


----------



## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

SRL had plenty of power. He just happened to face a lot of really tough opponents, who not only had great chins but also were great at the almost-lost art of slipping & diffusing punches.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> But what we do know is that dudes like Cocoa, Lytell, Holman, Burley definitely weren't worthy of a shot at Robinson.
> 
> He is the greatest after all - surely he fought the best competition available?





Bogotazo said:


> Duran was better on the inside. Period.


:rofl


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd would win 7 rounds off the body jab alone


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Floyd would win 7 rounds off the body jab alone


Against who? Leonard? No..


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl


Those were tongue in cheek comments, obviously.

Robinson is not even a 10 top fighter, let alone the greatest.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Those were tongue in cheek comments, obviously.
> 
> Robinson is not even a 10 top fighter, let alone the greatest.


His black fighters opposition pales in comparison to Julio.

Pernell Whitaker 
Meldrick Taylor x2
Rocky Lockridge
Roger Mayweather x2
Frankie Randall x3
David Kamau
John Duplessis 
Terrance Alli 
Frankie Mitchell
Lonnie Smith 
Verdell Smith
Buck Smith
Dwight Prachett
Bruce Pearson
Vernon Buchanon 
Willy Wise x2

Probably even more that have slipped my mind.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@Bogotazo :rofl :rofl atsch

http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...etter-than-him&p=932394&viewfull=1#post932394










:lol:


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

:ibutt

Any chance we could pull up "hide behind the shoulder and hope for the best"? That one kills me every time.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Against who? Leonard? No..


Leonard lost to Camacho. Tell me how Leonard stops the body jab


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Leonard lost to Camacho. Tell me how Leonard stops the body jab


Is this for real


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :ibutt
> 
> Any chance we could pull up "hide behind the shoulder and hope for the best"? That one kills me every time.


That's the one, ain't it? Duranimal was a pretty diabolical dude tbh and I don't doubt he meant every word.

Did you check out this interview?






Classy TBE. :deal


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Not yet, studying for an exam. Soon.


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## errsta (May 16, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah i don't know about that. Floyd is just overall better and SRL doesn't have a monster one punch power to end the show with one hit on Floyd so he will need to box Floyd and imo is outgunned.


wtf


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Not yet, studying for an exam. Soon.


Worth it. You know I can't ever drop Floyd from my favourite list with that much history already built-in from adolescence, and I poke fun at ALL of my fighters from time-to-time, but that's about as much respect as I've seen him level towards anyone and I'm not talking about anything he's said about guys that he was in the ring with and beat because he always comes off with class in that sort of scenario as most do.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @*Bogotazo* :rofl :rofl atsch
> 
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthre...etter-than-him&p=932394&viewfull=1#post932394
> 
> ...












You think Floyd is savvy enough to go the distance with the Motor City Cobra? Dudes the only guy I have bad feelings about with Floyd Matchups. The thing is, I slowed the vid down in premier and even then _his right is ridiculously quick_. Crazy.

Duran - "I had stomach cramps."


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## Stone Rose (Jul 15, 2013)

That right hand :yikes


----------



## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

It's from maturity. Leonard has always been pretty up front about things, but simply him and the other 3 were cut from a different cloth. Floyd is undoubtedly one of the best, but he's nowhere near their league.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Just to remind everyone that Duran is unbeaten at lightweight!!!


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


> You think Floyd is savvy enough to go the distance with the Motor City Cobra? Dudes the only guy I have bad feelings about with Floyd Matchups. The thing is, I slowed the vid down in premier and even then _his right is ridiculously quick_.


I guess this means that you think Floyd would beat Terry Norris and Mike McCallum at 154.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Humble remarks from a man who has always known the right thing to say to the media. 

But I'd literally bet my family's farm on SRL against Mayweather. SRL is a clear class above, especially at 147. I don't think any objective, long term fan of the sport ranks Money over SRL but that's not really a knock against Mayweather as it is a testament to SRL's greatness.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> Just to remind everyone that Duran is *unbeaten at lightweight*!!!


- Powahbaxin'...


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

30 seconds in, summed up pretty much, whod win between you vs floyd and manny, SRL says i would, but i dont feel comfortable saying that cause i dont have to say that, I know I could do it (beat them)


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> To you i have no doubt. You are part of the club. The stubborn, bias, sky is red and not blue color everyday club.
> I like to see you list 30 guys more accomplished than Floyd. You are talking out of your ass again Bogo.


I'm not the one inflating the stature of a single fighter far above the consensus just because he's my favorite. Which is plainly what you're doing.

30 guys more accomplished? Sure.

Robinson
Pep
Armstrong
Ali
Langford
Charles
Greb
Johnson
Gans
Ketchel
Moore
Walker
Fitzimmons
Walcott
Ross
Tunney
Louis
Duran
Ray Leonard
Benny Leonard
Hagler
Hearns
Whitaker
Lewis
Jones 
Monzon
Toney
Benitez
Hopkins
Frazier

(And I'm posting it here because it distracts from my thread.)


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## Perry (Feb 11, 2015)

I watched Leonard's entire career live from the 76 Olympics to his final pro fight. He was a talent head and shoulders above Mayweather. Yes Leonard had one punch Ko power in both fists. Mayweather certainly is an excellent fighter but a product of this watered down era where it does not take good talent to be champion.


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## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

Saw who posted the thread and came in expecting to see world-class stupid shit.

Thread delivers.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> *I'm not the one inflating the stature of a single fighter far above the consensus just because he's my favorite. Which is plainly what you're doing. *
> 
> 30 guys more accomplished? Sure.
> 
> ...


I can already tell you that 90% of what you listed does not surpass Floyd if you want to debate about it we can. By the time we listed the accomplishments, you will know that they fall short.

Secondly, you are talking as if Floyd have no grounds to claim he is the best.

This has nothing to do with "my favorite boxer" talk. I bet against the fighters i like all the time and a gambler first hand. If i take the fanboy approach in sports, i will be a broke ass and we both know that i do very well in sports gambling which proves my non-bias.

I followed Floyd a little before he won his first title and i saw his potential long ago and predicted that he can't be beat bc he makes very little mistakes and great in all range and got great defense and offense. How many years have i been right??? he will eventually fall to father time but remained defeated for 17 years as champion, i say i'm pretty accurate.

Other people are suffering from fanboy talk then me. *I am just merely stating the obvious and that is Floyd is damn good.*


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I'm not the one inflating the stature of a single fighter far above the consensus just because he's my favorite. Which is plainly what you're doing.
> 
> 30 guys more accomplished? Sure.
> 
> ...


I really hope that's the original Walcott you got there.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I can already tell you that 90% of what you listed does not surpass Floyd if you want to debate about it we can. By the time we listed the accomplishments, you will know that they fall short.


Can you do this without using boxrec as a crutch? We can move this to the historic where we'd have the best witnesses commenting on the era of Ross, Charles, Walker, Armstrong etc.



tliang1000 said:


> Secondly, you are talking as if Floyd have no grounds to claim he is the best.


He doesn't. He really doesn't. He never beat another ATG in their prime and his best wins are Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, Cotto, and old Oscar. You can dress that up any way you want with statistics about his undefeated record, it doesn't make them better fighters than they were.



tliang1000 said:


> This has nothing to do with "my favorite boxer" talk. I bet against the fighters i like all the time and a gambler first hand. If i take the fanboy approach in sports, i will be a broke ass and we both know that i do very well in sports gambling which proves my non-bias.
> 
> I followed Floyd a little before he won his first title and i saw his potential long ago and predicted that he can't be beat bc he makes very little mistakes and great in all range and got great defense and offense. How many years have i been right??? he will eventually fall to father time but remained defeated for 17 years as champion, i say i'm pretty accurate.
> 
> Other people are suffering from fanboy talk then me. *I am just merely stating the obvious and that is Floyd is damn good.*


You nuthug Floyd at every opportunity and inflate his status way beyond the consensus despite having an obvious lack of knowledge of past greats. We know he's damn good, he's great. But he's not number 1 on accomplishments and it's not close.


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


> You think Floyd is savvy enough to go the distance with the Motor City Cobra? Dudes the only guy I have bad feelings about with Floyd Matchups. The thing is, I slowed the vid down in premier and even then _his right is ridiculously quick_. Crazy.
> 
> Duran - "I had stomach cramps."


probably did have cramps to go along with his brand new concussion. his camps were like james toney's by then.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Can you do this without using boxrec as a crutch? We can move this to the historic where we'd have the best witnesses commenting on the era of Ross, Charles, Walker, Armstrong etc.
> 
> He doesn't. He really doesn't. He never beat another ATG in their prime and his best wins are Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, Cotto, and old Oscar. You can dress that up any way you want with statistics about his undefeated record, it doesn't make them better fighters than they were.
> 
> You nuthug Floyd at every opportunity and inflate his status way beyond the consensus despite having an obvious lack of knowledge of past greats. We know he's damn good, he's great. But he's not number 1 on accomplishments and it's not close.


Compare wins between fighters from different eras with no common opponents is an impossible debate. Boxrec provide the basis of comparisons. You can't for sure say that person is better than the other from just your own pov but you can compare accomplishments which is why Boxrec is needed bc it keeps track of who did what and how many years of champion and how many titles and blah blah. It have stats to compare as oppose to all opinion.

I have seen most past greats and really none of them is overall more impressive than Floyd.
Quit thinking that i have a mentality of just fanboying one fighter bs. again, if that is the case i will lose my ass in gambling. I don't have that mindset. To me YOU GUYS are the one fanboying and show bias.

A lot of the people on here will rather die than to admit that their wrong. I'm not here to bullshit.


----------



## dftaylor (Jun 4, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Compare wins between fighters from different eras with no common opponents is an impossible debate. Boxrec provide the basis of comparisons. You can't for sure say that person is better than the other from just your own pov but you can compare accomplishments which is why Boxrec is needed bc it keeps track of who did what and how many years of champion and how many titles and blah blah. It have stats to compare as oppose to all opinion.
> 
> I have seen most past greats and really none of them is overall more impressive than Floyd.
> Quit thinking that i have a mentality of just fanboying one fighter bs. again, if that is the case i will lose my ass in gambling. I don't have that mindset. To me YOU GUYS are the one fanboying and show bias.
> ...


:lol:


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Compare wins between fighters from different eras with no common opponents is an impossible debate.


The fuck? No it's not. Film and knowledge of the era's top fighters provide plenty of material.



tliang1000 said:


> Boxrec provide the basis of comparisons. You can't for sure say that person is better than the other from just your own pov but you can compare accomplishments which is why Boxrec is needed bc it keeps track of who did what and how many years of champion and how many titles and blah blah. It have stats to compare as oppose to all opinion.


Ranking boxers is, ultimately, based on the subjective rating of different fighters, and their victims, and their conquerors. A fighter's resume is compiled by looking at the tiers of a fighter's opponents and their opponents, and their opponents. That takes more than boxrec, that takes film study and research into contemporaneous rankings. If you're talking about "accomplishments" as some trivial numerical list, then nobody is going to take you seriously. Numbers and stats are always context dependent. In a sport like boxing it's laughable to use the number of belts, years, wins, rounds, knockouts, etc. as intrinsically sufficient proof of worth without evidence of quality backing them up.



tliang1000 said:


> *I have seen most past greats and really none of them is overall more impressive than Floyd.
> Quit thinking that i have a mentality of just fanboying one fighter bs.* again, if that is the case i will lose my ass in gambling. I don't have that mindset. To me YOU GUYS are the one fanboying and show bias.


See, this right here is ridiculous, and a subjective observation on how one single fighter looks as opposed to a comparative analysis of their resume. Isn't this supposed to be about accomplishments? That isn't about how hard your dick gets watching highlights of Floyd's pull-counter. I posted the 30 names. Those fighters have bigger, better wins. That's accomplishments. It's no knock on Floyd, boxing history is very deep, and lots of fighters have wins better than Castillo, Corrales, Cotto, old Mosley, old Oscar, and Hatton.



tliang1000 said:


> A lot of the people on here will rather die than to admit that their wrong.


No kidding :lol:

Look, just save yourself the trouble and take a nap or something instead. This isn't your strong suit, you've admitted as much yourself.



tliang1000 said:


> I'm too lazy for this. I'll only research for betting purposes.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> *The fuck? No it's not. Film and knowledge of the era's top fighters provide plenty of material. *
> 
> Ranking boxers is, ultimately, based on the subjective rating of different fighters, and their victims, and their conquerors. A fighter's resume is compiled by looking at the tiers of a fighter's opponents and their opponents, and their opponents. That takes more than boxrec, that takes film study and research into contemporaneous rankings. If you're talking about "accomplishments" as some trivial numerical list, then nobody is going to take you seriously. Numbers and stats are always context dependent. In a sport like boxing it's laughable to use the number of belts, years, wins, rounds, knockouts, etc. as intrinsically sufficient proof of worth without evidence of quality backing them up.
> 
> ...


Are you mental? Watching footage of past greats and current greats still doesn't provide any prove of who is better. Still all opinions like i said. You can say this person is better all you want but if they never get in the ring we will never know.
Boxrec gives some ground for debate bc it lists their record of who they fought, their accomplishments and who their opponents fought but you don't want to use a tool that provides fact, you just want to use your opinions.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I can already tell you that 90% of what you listed does not surpass Floyd* if you want to debate about it we can. By the time we listed the accomplishments, you will know that they fall short*.


I would love to hear you list why Floyd surpasses those 30 people Bogotazo listed in your view in detail (add in Jimmy Bivins, Freddie Steele, Teddy Yarosz, Holman Williams). I have a feeling if you try that it will show youre being a fanboy in your reasoning or know nothing about the previous eras and fighters. Either way go ahead, please.

I mean shit, it seems like your biggest criteria is accomplishments and looking at them on boxrec? the fact you say that and still say Mayweathers the best means you must have his accomplishments rated over Grebs, which is nuts man. I hope you dont really know about Grebs record cause if you do and still rate May over him thats some ultimate fanboy distorted view shit right there.

If you list your reasons why he surpasses them im sure I wont have to reply again and your reasons can just stand alone as to why I wouldnt have to reply.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Are you mental? Watching footage of past greats and current greats still doesn't provide any prove of who is better. Still all opinions like i said. You can say this person is better all you want but if they never get in the ring we will never know.
> Boxrec gives some ground for debate bc it lists their record of who they fought, their accomplishments and who their opponents fought but you don't want to use a tool that provides fact, you just want to use your opinions.


:lol: What?! You think it's _less_ accurate to judge an era of fighters by actually watching them compete and achieve their results, than it is to simply look them up on boxrec? You think it's _better_ somehow to do away with looking at multiple fighters' abilities while getting the same information regarding their wins and losses, and instead look at little red and green blocks and names you can't put faces to? Less information is superior? Ignorance is Strength? Sheet.

I was gonna kill a silly poster, but he did it to himself.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :lol: What?! You think it's _less_ accurate to judge an era of fighters by actually watching them compete and achieve their results, than it is to simply look them up on boxrec? You think it's _better_ somehow to do away with looking at multiple fighters' abilities while getting the same information regarding their wins and losses, and instead look at little red and green blocks and names you can't put faces to? Less information is superior? Ignorance is Strength? Sheet.
> 
> I was gonna kill a silly poster, but he did it to himself.


*
Don't put words in my word. i made it clear. Watching footage still doesn't prove anything bc they are not in the same era and no common opponents and not even in the same weight class. What is it so hard for you to understand?
You are the only being stubborn with this be all mean all bullshit.

I made my points clear that bc they are from different eras and no common opponents the only you can compare is by their accomplishments and where is a source to get that from??!?!?! boxrec.

*


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> I would love to hear you list why Floyd surpasses those 30 people Bogotazo listed in your view in detail (add in Jimmy Bivins, Freddie Steele, Teddy Yarosz, Holman Williams). I have a feeling if you try that it will show youre being a fanboy in your reasoning or know nothing about the previous eras and fighters. Either way go ahead, please.
> 
> I mean shit, it seems like your biggest criteria is accomplishments and looking at them on boxrec? the fact you say that and still say Mayweathers the best means you must have his accomplishments rated over Grebs, which is nuts man. I hope you dont really know about Grebs record cause if you do and still rate May over him thats some ultimate fanboy distorted view shit right there.
> 
> If you list your reasons why he surpasses them im sure I wont have to reply again and your reasons can just stand alone as to why I wouldnt have to reply.


You wanna debate and go head to head we can. Just don't run and hide when i corner and start posting my vids and side track to other bs like everyone who try to debate with me.

You and along with your other group think buddies are the dumb ones that doesnt even know that you guys got an uphill battle in comparison bc you guys want to act like you guys are knowledgeable and think you guys are cool by throwing some classic names in there as if you are some hardcore boxing fans. Keyword is ACT. just bc you know those fighters doesn't mean you know shit.

I want a debate on this bc i already know i have the upperhand. Floyd > majority of the fighters in history. PERIOD.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

listening to tilang try to talk about past ATGs is painful.

Like, here, let me copy and paste some boxrec shit so that I can prove I don't know what I'm talking about. 

tilang, tell me why Floyd is better than Ezzard Charles. Charles can match him in the skill department and obviously has a much better resume. Let's hear it


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> listening to tilang try to talk about past ATGs is painful.
> 
> Like, here, let me copy and paste some boxrec shit so that I can prove I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> tilang, tell me why Floyd is better than Ezzard Charles. Charles can match him in the skill department and obviously has a much better resume. Let's hear it


I'm over here trying to explain to you dumbfucks how to compare fighters from DIFFERENT ERAS, DIFFERENT WEIGHT CLASSES, WITH NO COMMON OPPONENTS BUT YOU GUYS WANT TO DEBATE WHO IS BETTER SUPERMAN OR BATMAN. So by me saying that Floyd throws a better left hook and displays better defense against Corrales than Ezzard Charles MEANS FUCKING WHAT?!
RETARDS.... DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE ASKING???


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :lol: What?! You think it's _less_ accurate to judge an era of fighters by actually watching them compete and achieve their results, than it is to simply look them up on boxrec? You think it's _better_ somehow to do away with looking at multiple fighters' abilities while getting the same information regarding their wins and losses, and instead look at little red and green blocks and names you can't put faces to? Less information is superior? Ignorance is Strength? Sheet.
> 
> I was gonna kill a silly poster, but he did it to himself.


Besides that, boxrec doesn't say which decision is a robbery so often it gives very wrong information too.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Besides that, *boxrec doesn't say which decision is a robbery *so often it gives very wrong information too.


 atsch tell that to the sportsbook. Hey mr. sportsbook... i should've won... my guy got robbed. Go look at checkhookboxing where @*Bogotazo* thought that JMM should've won against Tim bradley.

They will tell you to go fuck yourself.
*
and btw/fyi they to cite a notation if a decision is unpopular*


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> *
> Don't put words in my word. i made it clear. Watching footage still doesn't prove anything bc they are not in the same era and no common opponents and not even in the same weight class. What is it so hard for you to understand?
> You are the only being stubborn with this be all mean all bullshit.
> 
> ...


Do you have some disease or government sanction that doesn't allow you to watch fighters win fights? You can find out accomplishments that way too you know. And more. You can find out if the win was legitimate, or perhaps closer/farther than the official scores suggest, what skills the opponent had and what condition he was in, and contrast that with the same evidence of resume of other best fighters in and around the division at the time. It's like boxrec but even better! You should try it dude. It will change your whole perspective.

Lol "Floyd is the best ever, we can debate this"

5 posts later "YOU CAN'T COMPARE FIGHTERS FROM DIFFERENT ERAS UNLESS YOU LOOK AT THE RED AND GREEN BLOCKS, FOOTAGE BURNS MY PUPILS OH GAWD!!!#(*fgh"


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> atsch tell that to the sportsbook. Hey mr. sportsbook... i should've won... my guy got robbed. Go look at checkhookboxing where @Bogotazo thought that JMM should've won against Tim bradley.
> 
> They will tell you to go fuck yourself.


Let's totally ignore robberies and gift decisions and close fights because you wouldn't have gotten paid :rofl that makes sense. Just like the great Sugar Roy Spinks Jr once said, "Greatness lies not in your in-ring accomplishments, but in your ability to fund tliang's meals."


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)




----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Do you have some disease or government sanction that doesn't allow you to watch fighters win fights? You can find out accomplishments that way too you know. And more. You can find out if the win was legitimate, or perhaps closer/farther than the official scores suggest, what skills the opponent had and what condition he was in, and contrast that with the same evidence of resume of other best fighters in and around the division at the time. It's like boxrec but even better! You should try it dude. It will change your whole perspective.
> 
> Lol "Floyd is the best ever, we can debate this"
> 
> 5 posts later "YOU CAN'T COMPARE FIGHTERS FROM DIFFERENT ERAS UNLESS YOU LOOK AT THE RED AND GREEN BLOCKS, FOOTAGE BURNS MY PUPILS OH GAWD!!!#(*fgh"


Didn't i just said quit putting words in my mouth? Did i say that i never watch footage for research? Do you think i don't watch fights and just blindly bet on fights for the last 10 years? Of course if there is a tool I WILL USE IT. But you seem to don't understand the fact that Boxrec is also a very helpful tool.

and don't you know how dumb you sound putting down boxrec as if it is an irrelevant source for boxing. YOU DO KNOW THAT BOOKIES VERIFY THEIR PLAYERS WAGERS THROUGH BOXREC RIGHT? THERE ARE FIGHTS ARE NOT TELEVISED
MONEY FROM SMALL AMOUNT TO MILLIONS AND THEY USE BOXREC AS ONE OF THEIR MAIN TOOLS FOR VERIFICATION.

Seriously bogo you are a smart guy but you are too egotistical


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You wanna debate and go head to head we can. Just don't run and hide when i corner and start posting my vids and side track to other bs like everyone who try to debate with me.
> 
> You and along with your other group think buddies are the dumb ones that doesnt even know that you guys got an uphill battle in comparison bc you guys want to act like you guys are knowledgeable and think you guys are cool by throwing some classic names in there as if you are some hardcore boxing fans. Keyword is ACT. just bc you know those fighters doesn't mean you know shit.
> 
> I want a debate on this bc i already know i have the upperhand. Floyd > majority of the fighters in history. PERIOD.


:rofl Jesus christ, I literally asked for you to do one thing and tell me why you have Floyd above them.

And you come here with this hype up bullshit like youre your own hype man tryna sike yourself up and scare people or some shit... :rolleyes

Just give me your reasons for Floyd being above those guys

And just give me the reasons on record and accomplishments. Dont distract with other bullshit.

Dont give me the usual

(poster) okay lets debate this why is Mayweather ahead of Greb or Bivins or Armstrong (or the 30 other dudes that were listed ages ago that you still havnt fucking addressed after asking for it and people asking you to)

(you) oh yeah you want to youre just gonna run and hide from my knowledge come on man lets debate.

(poster) yes i still want to debate you havnt addressed anything at all yet, why do you rate him ahead of Greb or Bivins

(you) man I got so much boxing knowledge i bet money on it, like actual cash money. Mayweathers rich as fuck neither of those guys made as much as him. He was the highest paid athlete for years, those guys just won fights and shit, they were never in Forbes lists, FLOYD > all the other boxers. END. 
*(Then talks about how much Floyd accomplished and how its more than the other guys listed even though he hasnt mentioned one thing about what theyve accomplished or by what reasoning Floyds surpassed them)


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Let's totally ignore robberies and gift decisions and close fights because you wouldn't have gotten paid :rofl that makes sense. Just like the great Sugar Roy Spinks Jr once said, "Greatness lies not in your in-ring accomplishments, but in your ability to fund tliang's meals."


atsch the fuck are you even talking about? You trying to put down Boxrec is pathetic, just stop it.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Didn't i just said quit putting words in my mouth? Did i say that i never watch footage for research? Do you think i don't watch fights and just blindly bet on fights for the last 10 years? Of course if there is a tool I WILL USE IT. But you seem to don't understand the fact that Boxrec is also a very helpful tool.
> 
> and don't you know how dumb you sound putting down boxrec as if it is an irrelevant source for boxing. YOU DO KNOW THAT BOOKIES VERIFY THEIR PLAYERS WAGERS THROUGH BOXREC RIGHT? THERE ARE FIGHTS ARE NOT TELEVISED
> MONEY FROM SMALL AMOUNT TO MILLIONS AND THEY USE BOXREC AS ONE OF THEIR MAIN TOOLS FOR VERIFICATION.
> ...


You've said in this very thread that watching footage is meaningless. You said it. Nobody is putting words in your mouth. You said you would debate resumes, and told me to list 30 fighters. I did. So far you've not made a single defense of your radically divergent opinion.

You rely on boxrec as a crutch because you're ignorant of historical greats. I'm not saying it has 0 value, I'm saying it doesn't give you anything you can't achieve by watching the available fights. Instead of seeing a little green block, you see the bout play out. Not one, but 20 of that era. That gives you a much better picture for weighing resumes. But of course, you won't admit that, because it requires you to go down a road you can't win, which is providing a detailed argument as to why Floyd has accomplished more than, say, Ezzard Charles, or Harry Greb.

You can't handle this tliang. You're not ready. And that's okay. Just stop pretending you are. We all see right through it and it obviously causes you distress.



Lester1583 said:


>


<3<3<3


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> :rofl Jesus christ, I literally asked for you to do one thing and tell me why you have Floyd above them.
> 
> And you come here with this hype up bullshit like youre your own hype man tryna sike yourself up and scare people or some shit... :rolleyes
> 
> ...


I am not going to waste my time when people on here doesn't even know why Boxrec is important tool for BOXING INFORMATION.

Do i want to spend all day arguing who should be rank higher? Jet li or jackie chen? Ken shamrock or Ben Henderson? Superman vs Batman? Street fighter vs Tekken? Oh yeah... just watch some footage and make some fanboy comments. No his left hook is better and he beat him when it was important that day blah blah blah.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You've said in this very thread that watching footage is meaningless. You said it. Nobody is putting words in your mouth. You said you would debate resumes, and told me to list 30 fighters. I did. So far you've not made a single defense of your radically divergent opinion.
> 
> You rely on boxrec as a crutch because you're ignorant of historical greats. I'm not saying it has 0 value, I'm saying it doesn't give you anything you can't achieve by watching the available fights. Instead of seeing a little green block, you see the bout play out. Not one, but 20 of that era. That gives you a much better picture for weighing resumes. But of course, you won't admit that, because it requires you to go down a road you can't win, which is providing a detailed argument as to why Floyd has accomplished more than, say, Ezzard Charles, or Harry Greb.
> 
> ...


quote me.

The only thing that is causing me distress is you guys don't understand why boxrec is needed. i have to beat it out of you, when it should be obvious.

I rather you guys just stay ignorant.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Theron said:


> :rofl Jesus christ, I literally asked for you to do one thing and tell me why you have Floyd above them.
> 
> And you come here with this hype up bullshit like youre your own hype man tryna sike yourself up and scare people or some shit... :rolleyes
> 
> ...


:rofl This is the textbook.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> quote me.


okay.



tliang1000 said:


> Watching footage of past greats and current greats still doesn't provide any prove of who is better.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> okay.


Oh yea that is so what i say that footage is useless. Why don't you add the part about different era, weight, and fucking no common opponents puta.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I am not going to waste my time when people on here doesn't even know why Boxrec is important tool for BOXING INFORMATION.
> 
> Do i want to spend all day arguing who should be rank higher? Jet li or jackie chen? Ken shamrock or Ben Henderson? Superman vs Batman? Street fighter vs Tekken? Oh yeah... just watch some footage and make some fanboy comments. No his left hook is better and he beat him when it was important that day blah blah blah.


I never asked you to rate on film or who threw better punches or looked better etc.

I asked you to rate just on accomplishments and record, use boxrec as much as you like please...

I mean hell if itll get you to actually post something about boxing use only boxrec just rate on their records and accomplishments


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Oh yea that is so what i say that footage is useless. Why don't you add the part about different era, weight, and fucking no common opponents puta.


You can still directly compare their skillsets, and the skillsets of opponents.
The only difference between black-white/color-from-past-era fighters from the 20s onwards and now is the bigger gloves and the massive weight draining.

A fighter who could move well in the 30s could still move well today.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> I never asked you to rate on film or who threw better punches or looked better etc.
> 
> I asked you to rate just on accomplishments and record, use boxrec as much as you like please...
> 
> I mean hell if itll get you to actually post something about boxing use only boxrec just rate on their records and accomplishments


Ok... lets start with willie pep from BOGO's list. 
on footage.
Willie pep doesn't display a better defense. no power, and lack the offensive ability and all range fighting that Floyd processes.

On paper:
Floyd fought more elites, won more titles, and never beaten. Simple.

now you.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Ok... lets start with willie pep from BOGO's list.
> on footage.
> Willie pep doesn't display a better defense. no power, and lack the offensive ability and all range fighting that Floyd processes.
> On paper:
> ...


How did you come to the conclusion that Floyd has fought more elites?


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Ok... lets start with willie pep from BOGO's list.
> on footage.
> Willie pep doesn't display a better defense. no power, and lack the offensive ability and all range fighting that Floyd processes.
> 
> ...


oh christ. I forgot that if you dont have power it counts against you when your being ranked. Well shit thats Ali and Greb off the top 10 P4P list now.

And wtf man you think Floyd has power? if in this comparison Floyds higher cause he punched harder what happens when hes compared to Benny Leonard or Langford...

AND DO NOT use the won more titles thing. He lived in a weight draining and more weight division era.

If Henry Armstrong had the benefit of weight draining and the weight classes Floyd had in his era Armstrong could of gone through 14 divisions...

If you want to use belts and theres different rules in 2 different eras you have to realize that.

If Floyd was in Peps era he would of only been able to go for 2 titles at lightweight and welterweight...

And I asked for Greb and Bivins (you can try get all those 30 he listed too but... I have a feeling itll be a lot of first time boxrecing and youll be going at it with no context or knowledge of who their best wins were)

AND, didnt you say this before, why are you comparing Peps filmed performance when you said you cant compare people from your pov but can compare their accomplishments



tliang1000 said:


> You can't for sure say that person is better than the other from just your own pov but you can compare accomplishments


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> How did you come to the conclusion that Floyd has fought more elites?


This is the problem of comparing apples to oranges. And where boxrec come into play.

Elite fighters = participants of a title bout? or p4p ranking or weight division ranking is fair i think.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> This is the problem of comparing apples to oranges. And where boxrec come into play.
> 
> Elite fighters = participants of a title bout? or p4p ranking or weight division ranking is fair i think.


Participants of a title bout is unfair because back then there was just 1 belt.
And you don't have the monthly p4p rankings or monthly rankings of weight divisions so where did you come to the conclusion that Floyd has faced more elite fighters?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> oh christ. I forgot that if you dont have power it counts against you when your being ranked. Well shit thats Ali and Greb off the top 10 P4P list now.
> 
> And wtf man you think Floyd has power? if in this comparison Floyds higher cause he punched harder what happens when hes compared to Benny Leonard or Langford...
> 
> ...


I never said that footage doesn't mean anything. Footage can use to verify a boxer's ability but it doesn't provide as a fact. Boxrec of how many championship bouts and shit that is concrete that you can argue all you want but it is what it is.

If no boxrec it will purely opinions.

idk why you taking bogo's words when i made it clear that i didn't say footage was useless. If you are not clear, ask me.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I never said that footage doesn't mean anything. Footage can use to verify a boxer's ability but it doesn't provide as a fact. Boxrec of how many championship bouts and shit that is concrete that you can argue all you want but it is what it is.
> 
> If no boxrec it will purely opinions.
> 
> idk why you taking bogo's words when i made it clear that i didn't say footage was useless. If you are not clear, ask me.


Wtf does the amount of championship bouts matter?
Do you think Sven Ottke is greater than Roberto Duran?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Participants of a title bout is unfair because back then there was just 1 belt.
> And you don't have the monthly p4p rankings or monthly rankings of weight divisions so where did you come to the conclusion that Floyd has faced more elite fighters?


If we can't come to a conclusion of who fought more elites then move on to next attributes. No one says this shit is easy.
Floyd got 24 championship fight, how many Pep got? Floyd is lifting or defending a title. here comes the next is not fair statement.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Wtf does the amount of championship bouts matter?
> Do you think Sven Ottke is greater than Roberto Duran?


why don't you provide a criteria then if you going to nitpick every damn thing. championship bout is one of many criterias.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I never said that footage doesn't mean anything. Footage can use to verify a boxer's ability but it doesn't provide as a fact. Boxrec of how many championship bouts and shit that is concrete that you can argue all you want but it is what it is.
> 
> If no boxrec it will purely opinions.
> 
> idk why you taking bogo's words when i made it clear that i didn't say footage was useless. If you are not clear, ask me.


Compare Greb/Bivins/Langford/Charles to Floyd on resume and accomplishments please. Why is Floyd better than them?

Id also be interested in why Floyds better than Packey McFarland or Benny Leonard?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Compare Greb/Bivins/Langford/Charles to Floyd on resume and accomplishments please. Why is Floyd better than them?
> 
> Id also be interested in why Floyds better than Packey McFarland or Benny Leonard?


Are we done with willie pep? I'm not doing a rundown for no damn reason. I didn't even hear that you are right or i get where you coming from. I got a life and currently working.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> If we can't come to a conclusion of who fought more elites then move on to next attributes. No one says this shit is easy.
> Floyd got 24 championship fight, how many Pep got? Floyd is lifting or defending a title. here comes the next is not fair statement.


Back then you could have fights against meaningful opponents without a title, so again unfair comparison.
Manuel Ortiz is a top 10 ATG at bantam, what top 10 ATG at any division did Floyd ever beat?
Future lightweight champ Paddy DeMarco
Willie Joyce who went on to beat Henry Armstrong
ATG Sammy Angott
Ex champ Harold Dade

And back then being the champ meant a lot more than for example the paper 154 belt Pacman got.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> why don't you provide a criteria then if you going to nitpick every damn thing. championship bout is one of many criterias.


Eye-test with footage, newspaper reports if there's lack of footage.
Championship bout is only meaningful if the opponent is meaningful, Alex Leapai isn't greater than Sam Langford just because he got a title shot against Wlad.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Are we done with willie pep? I'm not doing a rundown for no damn reason. I didn't even hear that you are right or i get where you coming from. I got a life and currently working.


I didnt agree with the Pep one, for one I dont think Floyds defense was better, punching power dosent affect rankings, and Floyds not a puncher either so... And your on paper debate didnt compare their best wins or compare their opponents skill wise or anything, it literally just said Floyd was better, and one of your reasons was cause hes undefeated. Throughout history almost everytime guys that have been undefeated have fought in weak eras or havnt fought the best around.

Besides I never asked for a Pep one ignore all that ive been asking for Greb/Bivins/Langford/Charles/McFarland/Benny Leonard.

I want to know why Floyds better than them.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Back then you could have fights against meaningful opponents without a title, so again unfair comparison.
> Manuel Ortiz is a top 10 ATG at bantam, what top 10 ATG at any division did Floyd ever beat?
> Future lightweight champ Paddy DeMarco
> Willie Joyce who went on to beat Henry Armstrong
> ...


why don't you set some critrias then.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> I didnt agree with the Pep one, for one I dont think Floyds defense was better, punching power dosent affect rankings, and Floyds not a puncher either so... And your on paper debate didnt compare their best wins or compare their opponents skill wise or anything, it literally just said Floyd was better, and one of your reasons was cause hes undefeated. Throughout history almost everytime guys that have been undefeated have fought in weak eras or havnt fought the best around.
> 
> Besides I never asked for a Pep one ignore all that ive been asking for Greb/Bivins/Langford/Charles/McFarland/Benny Leonard.
> 
> I want to know why Floyds better than them.


why don't you set the critrias then. i don't care for pointless discussions. i have already said that i could careless if people agrees with me or not but if i see something that i don't agree i will chime in or maybe not depends how bored i am.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Skillwise floyd has a case for being one of the best. but his resume is not up there with the ATGs. saying otherwise is just lying to yourself. 

What Floyd has is a lot of good-very good wins over good fighters, faded ATGs, limited brawlers , but no signature win over a prime ATG opponent. All of these ATGs we're talking about, they all basically have that signiture win. Michael Spinks has it over Qawi. Leonard over Hearns. Duran over Leonard. Charles over Walcott, Bivins. Ali has Foreman, Frazier, Liston. Jones has Toney, Bhop. Whitaker has Chavez. ETC!

And then Floyd has... um... Marquez, DLH, Mosley who weren't at their best. Pacquiao is also clearly past his prime, so there is a asterisk over that fight should Floyd win.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> why don't you set the critrias then. i don't care for pointless discussions. i have already said that i could careless if people agrees with me or not but if i see something that i don't agree i will chime in or maybe not depends how bored i am.


Usually my criteria is more a little bit of everything but mostly weighing on best wins and level of opposition faced/beaten.

For this though just compare their best wins, the level of opposition they faced/beat.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Usually my criteria is more a little bit of everything but mostly weighing on best wins and level of opposition faced/beaten.
> 
> *For this though just compare their best wins, the level of opposition they faced/beat.*


It is meaningless then. It will be purely opinions. I have to work, bet on live tennis or this... i choose making money.


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## D-U-D-E (Jul 31, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Shane is a fucking retard. Leonard would toy with that motherfucker and bury his ass. Lmfao.Shane.
> We gonna compare SHANE to Sugar now?
> 
> You know how in America... cars have 'luxury divisions' and than the lower tier and lower tier etc etc etc...
> ...


:rofl


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Right, so this is what happened. 

tliang1000 said Floyd was the best ever and listed how much money he had and how many championship fights he had. I told him this was ridiculous because his resume doesn't add up to many of those in the past. He said that I was stubborn for not admitting he could feasibly be considered the best based on accomplishments. 

So I name 30 fighters historically greater than Floyd at his request. He goes on and on about boxrec gives you valuable information, as if one champion is equal to another, as if you can't watch a fighter get his wins on screen and can only look at the little red and green blocks, as if looking at names you can't put a face too with rankings and belts on paper is more "objective" than watching a fighter's abilities and judging them. When confronted on this, he cries about you putting words in his mouth, only to be shown he said footage is useless in comparing fighters from different eras. 

Then other posters ask him the basic question of how Floyd is more accomplished than any single one of those fighters. He sarcastically starts talking about Pep's physical attributes, as if he somehow wins by using criteria he himself says is worthless that we didn't ask him for. We simply ask for accomplishments, but no, after a complete joke of an analysis of Pep's career he goes "blah blah blah it's all subjective you hate boxrec you're stupid" and suddenly starts talking about how busy he is and how he needs to make money betting on tennis. Suddenly his eagerness to debate his gone even though he "just couldn't wait to debate this" because he knew he was right. 

Like I said tliang, you're not ready, and that's fine. But stop pretending you are. You don't know shit about boxing history so don't go around making yourself look silly putting a little cardboard Burger King crown on your hero.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Right, so this is what happened.
> 
> tliang1000 said Floyd was the best ever and listed how much money he had and how many championship fights he had. I told him this was ridiculous because his resume doesn't add up to many of those in the past. He said that I was stubborn for not admitting he could feasibly be considered the best based on accomplishments.
> 
> ...


all that shit that you said still can't prove shit bc there is no end for fantasy talk. No way to prove bc what i have kept listing. 
I made an attempt to build a set criterias to grade boxer but even that we get disagreements so that is that. fuck it.
so quit cherrypicking what i said when you know i said more.

I post a fact about floyd shit that you happen to disregard.
what about his longevity at the top level, p4p for over 10 years. still beating guys at the top level at age 38. Conveniently you left those points out.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> all that shit that you said still can't prove shit bc there is no end for fantasy talk. No way to prove bc what i have kept listing.
> I made an attempt to build a set criterias to grade boxer but even that we get disagreements so that is that. fuck it.
> so quit cherrypicking what i said when you know i said more.
> 
> ...


That's literally what happened tliang. You told me I was stubborn, asked me to post 30 fighters more accomplished, and I did. Many pages later you still haven't laid out a single coherent argument as to why Floyd is better than consensus superiors.

You can't weasel out by saying that it's all subjective and backing down from your arrogant claim that not considering Floyd close to the best is stubbornness. Some things are plain enough to see without reasonable disagreement. You can tell whether a fighter uses their jab or not. You can tell if a fighter has more tools and can fight at more ranges than another boxer. You can tell whether a fighter is quicker and a harder hitter. You can tell if a fighter makes adjustments. These are things fans and historians alike look at.

Nobody is going to consider those facts you stated as important *on their own* without weight of the resume. If a guy pops up and goes undefeated for 20 years and his best wins are Rios, Peterson, Malignaggi, Judah, Abregu in "championship" fights, does he somehow beat Floyd in greatness? Obviously not. That's why your use of numerical measures are useless without proof of the resume's worth.

Do you know P4P is established by exactly the same criteria we're asking you to use for accomplishments? Quality victories over other competition? Which is assssed by, you know, watching film? That's how rankings and contenders are established in the first place. Your weird assertion that boxrec rankings are solely objective facts when is strange because someone had to watch footage to make them in the first place.

Beating B and B+ fighters for 17 years or whatever isn't good as beating A and A- fighters in a shorter period of time. Fans have compared eras and fighters using resume as a benchmark for decades. It is the norm. If you want to deviate from that norm by claiming boxrec is the holy grail of objectivity (even though it was compiled by subjective rankings anyway) then go ahead, but nobody is going to take you seriously.

Is it so much to ask? *Why is Floyd's resume superior to Ray Leonard's?* Can you just try and use arguments that actually have contextual meaning instead of useless stats?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

I hate when flomos get on their high horse.. undefeated!! Compubox king! 17+ years of cherry pickin! Beat up whitaker in sparring! TBE!!


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That's literally what happened tliang. You told me I was stubborn, asked me to post 30 fighters more accomplished, and I did. Many pages later you still haven't laid out a single coherent argument as to why Floyd is better than consensus superiors.
> 
> You can't weasel out by saying that it's all subjective and backing down from your arrogant claim that not considering Floyd close to the best is stubbornness. Some things are plain enough to see without reasonable disagreement. You can tell whether a fighter uses their jab or not. You can tell if a fighter has more tools and can fight at more ranges than another boxer. You can tell whether a fighter is quicker and a harder hitter. You can tell if a fighter makes adjustments. These are things fans and historians alike look at.
> 
> ...


Wait wtf.... you claiming that i don't know that fantasy matches is all subjective? How many years have i been saying that it can't be proven due to different eras, different weight classes and no common opponents?

At the bold points i highlights. Thats funny that you think that Floyd beat majority b and b+ fighters and you listed 29 fighters that fought majority bums in their resume. but yet it is up to you to grade them huh. As if your words means any value over others. In short you are full of shit bogo.

I have said plenty of time that SRL got more big names than Floyd but even that is being challenged once Floyd rack up a couple more big names. However your stupidass fail to understand there are more critrias to greatness than just "big names"


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

No tilang, its not opinion that Ali has better wins than Mayweather or that Leonard does, or that Duran does, or that Charles does etc


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> No tilang, its not opinion that Ali has better wins than Mayweather or that Leonard does, or that Duran does, or that Charles does etc


The only thing i can give you on what you are claiming is that i can see where you are coming from but that is STILL not prove nor do i agree with you bc THEY ARE FROM DIFFERENT ERAS, IN DIFFERENT WEIGHT CLASSES AND NO COMMON OPPONENTS. You can't prove. Just like i can say that Floyd win over JMM is better than Hagler's win over Duran.

over 66+ pages i have said there are plenty of critrias that justifies greatness. Sure resume is one, what about longetivity? what about beating guys 10 years younger? I know that not many fighters can match what Floyd did. But can you safely say that Hagler's win over Duran is better than Floyd's win over JMM????

That is what separates between you stubborn asses and I. I can reason, while you guys are just full of opinion (shit)


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> you listed 29 fighters that fought majority bums in their resume.


Really? A majority of bums huh? Who exactly are you talking about? Leonard fought mostly bums? Ali fought mostly bums? Armstrong fought mostly bums?

Even if they did fight lots of low-ranked fighters (which was what fighters in the old days did instead of sparring)-how does that subtract from having the better wins? You keep deflecting from this. It's pathetic.



tliang1000 said:


> but yet it is up to you to grade them huh. As if your words means any value over others. In short you are full of shit bogo.


It's up to *everyone*. To watch and evaluate and debate and discuss. The problem is you're left out because you haven't put in the time, so you change the rules to suit your astounding lack of knowledge. You cannot claim Floyd is better than those guys without engaging those guys' career.



tliang1000 said:


> I have said plenty of time that SRL got more big names than Floyd but even that is being challenged once Floyd rack up a couple more big names. However your stupidass fail to understand there are more critrias to greatness than just "big names"


It won't be challenged. Floyd hasn't fought anyone on Hearns, or Duran, or Hagler's level. And he likely never will. It's not just "big names", it's historically accomplished and talented fighters in or close to their prime. I'd like to see you debate how any of Floyd's best wins rack up with Leonard's best.



tliang1000 said:


> The only thing i can give you on what you are claiming is that i can see where you are coming from but that is STILL not prove nor do i agree with you bc THEY ARE FROM DIFFERENT ERAS, IN DIFFERENT WEIGHT CLASSES AND NO COMMON OPPONENTS. You can't prove. Just like i can say that Floyd win over JMM is better than Hagler's win over Duran.
> 
> over 66+ pages i have said there are plenty of critrias that justifies greatness. Sure resume is one, what about longetivity? what about beating guys 10 years younger? I know Floyd that not many fighters can match that. But can you safely say that Hagler's win over Duran is better than Floyd's win over JMM????
> 
> That is what seperates between you stubborn asses than I. I can reason, while you guys are just full of opinion (shit)


Duran is a better fighter than Marquez. He has bigger wins and is more versatile.

That is commonly accepted as true. Unless you can provide an argument in the alternative, you fall flat on your face, yet again.

Don't try tliang. You're not ready. Take some time off, get a nice big screen like Iron Mike, heat up some popcorn, check out the top consensus ATG's of the past, then come back to us. Because so far you've provided a whole not of *nothing* as to why Floyd is better than any of those top 30 guys, let alone the best.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

and @*Bogotazo*. You can claim that i don't know "classic boxers" as much and that is fine i'm not here to dispute bc i never claim i am a boxing historian. But don't accuse of never seen those guys fight before. I have never been a liar and you should know that. As for eye for talent, you don't match what i can do. I win at a 70-90% that is not including big faves and including totals and way of victory method. I have accuracy and constantly pick winners for over 10 years. I know you see my picks and what i did on the sportsbooks. I put my money where my mouth is where you have not. And thats a fact Jack. So don't act like you can tell me who is better bc i don't need your opinion and don't need it. I seen you in action and hate to hurt your ego but you are NOT GOOD AT PICKING WINNERS.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Really? A majority of bums huh? Who exactly are you talking about? Leonard fought mostly bums? Ali fought mostly bums? Armstrong fought mostly bums?
> 
> Even if they did fight lots of low-ranked fighters (which was what fighters in the old days did instead of sparring)-how does that subtract from having the better wins? You keep deflecting from this. It's pathetic.
> 
> ...


Duran got bigger wins? and bigger losses too or you conveniently left that out? You can't have one and not the other. A win counts so does losses.
Duran got SRL, JMM got Pac. What other bigger wins does duran have? At least JMM have morales, and barrera on there too. Lets see. duran lost to dejesus, wilfred, ktfo by hearns and beaten by camacho, and beaten by Hagler. WOW i'm so impressed.

Duran damn near lost every big fight he have and you over here still jacking off to his SRL win. Wake the fuck up and realize there is MORE TO THE STORY THAN JUST ONE BIG WIN.
*
SOMETIMES CONSISTENCY AND OVERALL ACHIEVEMENT IS GREATER THAN A COUPLE OF BIG WINS
*BUT I don't expect you to understand that bc you are too far up in your own ass to comprehend anything outside from your own asshole.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Duran got bigger wins? and bigger losses too or you conveniently left that out? You can't have one and not the other. A win counts so does losses.


Losses don't subtract from wins though. Next.



tliang1000 said:


> Duran got SRL, JMM got Pac.


And Leonard is a far better fighter than Pacquiao. This is consensus. Next.



tliang1000 said:


> What other bigger wins does duran have? At least JMM have morales, and barrera on there too. Lets see. duran lost to dejesus, wilfred, ktfo by hearns and beaten by camacho, and beaten by Hagler. WOW i'm so impressed.


*Really? How did you score Marquez-Morales? I would be incredibly interested in hearing your thoughts on that fight. If you answer nothing else, please tell me how you rate that win for Marquez. *

Duran avenged De Jesus twice, beat Ken Buchanan and enjoyed a long reign as lightweight champion with wins over top contenders, Ray Lampkin Ernesto Marcel, beat Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Iran Barkley, Davey Moore. Duran has more depth and the bigger single win. And demonstrated more versatility. It's no contest.

You can't knock Duran for losing to better fighters than Floyd ever fought. That's like criticizing someone for not reaching the top of a mountain when all you've done is climb hills. Although it's very strange how you want to compare losses instead of wins. Comparing *accomplishments* is what debates like this most often consist of, and it's what you yourself established at the outset for this discussion. Past-prime shortcomings don't subtract from accomplishments. The fact you even bring up the Camacho loss just shows how desperate you are.



tliang1000 said:


> Duran damn near lost every big fight he have and you over here still jacking off to his SRL win. Wake the fuck up and realize there is MORE TO THE STORY THAN JUST ONE BIG WIN.
> *
> SOMETIMES CONSISTENCY AND OVERALL ACHIEVEMENT IS GREATER THAN A COUPLE OF BIG WINS
> *BUT I don't expect you to understand that bc you are too far up in your own ass to comprehend anything outside from your own asshole.


Losses don't subtract from accomplishments, and you can't hold Floyd to a higher standard for never fighting the guys of quality Duran lost to. And he was past his prime at that. This is something only Floyd nuthuggers dwell on, because the undefeated record is practically the only numerical advantage he has over these much more accomplished fighters. Which is meaningless without quality fighters to substantiate it.

Consistency over B+ fighters is not as good as wins over A+, A, A- fighters. Getting the bronze medal 3 times is never as good as getting the gold once. Climbing 10 hills is not the same thing as climbing 1 mountain. You just want to make it seem that way because Floyd lacks big wins, unlike all those named greats.



tliang1000 said:


> and @*Bogotazo*. *You can claim that i don't know "classic boxers" as much and that is fine i'm not here to dispute bc i never claim i am a boxing historian.* But don't accuse of never seen those guys fight before. I have never been a liar and you should know that. As for eye for talent, you don't match what i can do. I win at a 70-90% that is not including big faves and including totals and way of victory method. I have accuracy and constantly pick winners for over 10 years. I know you see my picks and what i did on the sportsbooks. I put my money where my mouth is where you have not. And thats a fact Jack. So don't act like you can tell me who is better bc i don't need your opinion and don't need it. I seen you in action and hate to hurt your ego but you are NOT GOOD AT PICKING WINNERS.


So you've now admitted that you don't have the knowledge to properly compare Floyd to fighters who are considered greater by consensus. Thanks. That's the first step. Now you can stop calling people stubborn and making ridiculous arguments trying to prop up Floyd as the best ever. Congratulations, we're all proud of you.

And thankfully your piss poor attempt at a cheap shot doesn't even need to be considered, because I'm rating based on fights that already happened, not imaginary ones I need to predict. Your imaginary pile of millions in bet wins doesn't mean shit if you don't know shit about historical boxers, which is the case.

Have a good night Tony. Hopefully you've learned your lesson.


----------



## Slick Ric (Apr 7, 2015)

I don't believe that Ray believes this. I think he's just trying to appear humble rather than making himself look like a bitter has-been.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Cormega said:


> I don't believe that Ray believes this. *I think he's just trying to appear humble rather than making himself look like a bitter has-been.*


That's why he keeps on winning, dude is a player.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> That's literally what happened tliang. You told me I was stubborn, asked me to post 30 fighters more accomplished, and I did. Many pages later you still haven't laid out a single coherent argument as to why Floyd is better than consensus superiors.
> 
> You can't weasel out by saying that it's all subjective and backing down from your arrogant claim that not considering Floyd close to the best is stubbornness. Some things are plain enough to see without reasonable disagreement. You can tell whether a fighter uses their jab or not. You can tell if a fighter has more tools and can fight at more ranges than another boxer. You can tell whether a fighter is quicker and a harder hitter. You can tell if a fighter makes adjustments. These are things fans and historians alike look at.
> 
> ...


Hey Bogo how would you critique Fraziers resume vs Wlads? It's kinda a tough thing to breakdown, like do I take the FOTC win (one of the greatest wins in history) over Wlads whole body of work? When Frazier faded to obscurity very early in his late 20's Wlads is still the dominant heavyweight at 39? I find it really hard tho, but my historical knowledge is not up to par.

What do you think?

It's a tough one for me.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> bc THEY ARE FROM DIFFERENT ERAS, IN DIFFERENT WEIGHT CLASSES AND NO COMMON OPPONENTS. You can't prove.
> 
> That is what separates between you stubborn asses and I. I can reason, while you guys are just full of opinion (shit)


Wait...So if youre saying we cant say anyones better than Floyd because of different eras and no common opponents then that means you cant say that Floyds the best either...


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


> Hey Bogo how would you critique Fraziers resume vs Wlads? It's kinda a tough thing to breakdown, like do I take the FOTC win (one of the greatest wins in history) over Wlads whole body of work? When Frazier faded to obscurity very early in his late 20's Wlads is still the dominant heavyweight at 39? I find it really hard tho, but my historical knowledge is not up to par.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> It's a tough one for me.


Good question. Depth over such a long period of time can definitely trump a lot of single big wins. This is why Junior Jones, Ken Norton etc. are not considered ATG's. I think it helps Frazier's case that he didn't just have the Ali win (which is probably one of the 3 best wins in boxing ever) in terms of ranked opposition. He's got Ellis, Quarry, Foster, Bonavena, Mathis, Chuvalo. In fact, looking at that list, even though some of the opponents were on the lower end of the top 10, they don't look any worse than most of Wlad's regular opponents. The Haye win helps Wlad too though, he was definitely his biggest challenge and he beat him soundly. The fact we were disappointed with the action shouldn't subtract much from that. At the end of the day though I'll always put more weight on who you beat to determine your greatness. Having a good engine for B level guys over a decade or more is impressive but just not the same in my eyes. So I think Frazier's amazing win over Ali, coupled with several good and very good wins, trump Wlad's single very good win and numerous just decent wins. That fair?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Theron said:


> Wait...So if youre saying we cant say anyones better than Floyd because of different eras and no common opponents then that means you cant say that Floyds the best either...


:rofl Right. He seemed so ready though. Was like B-Rabbit looking in the mirror all stone cold before the final battle, then going up and grabbing the mic being all "yeah it's whatever guys, it's all subjective, we don't need to battle, let's go home." Or Achilles standing outside the walls of Troy and yelling "HECTOR" over and over only to be like "you know what, war is dumb, you made a mistake anyways. Who's to say who's better? Let's go back to Greece."


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Wait...So if youre saying we cant say anyones better than Floyd because of different eras and no common opponents then that means you cant say that Floyds the best either...


huh? i think you need to read the thread again if you still doesn't know where i stand about fantasy matchup and atg rankings.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :rofl Right. He seemed so ready though. Was like B-Rabbit looking in the mirror all stone cold before the final battle, then going up and grabbing the mic being all "yeah it's whatever guys, it's all subjective, we don't need to battle, let's go home." Or Achilles standing outside the walls of Troy and yelling "HECTOR" over and over only to be like "you know what, war is dumb, you made a mistake anyways. Who's to say who's better? Let's go back to Greece."


Thats funny bc most of the time whenever i give an opinion on a fighter i have always try to make sure i add, it is from my opinion unlike you bozo the clown who act like your shit is the truth.

You live in fantasying land, while i live in the real world. Shit is not always black or white as you put it Bogo. "one big meaningful win trumps all else bc you say so" pov.

Just bc i took a step back not bc i feel that i was wrong but rather when i realize that since people will not be able to agree on a critria like theron says what he view is important seperate from mine, i back off and respected his opinion while you BOGO still insist that you are perfect, explains why so many people think you are full of shit and you are.Not full of shit as if you are a liar but more so that you are too full of yourself.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Thats funny bc most of the time whenever i give an opinion on a fighter i have always try to make sure i add, it is from my opinion unlike you bozo the clown who act like your shit is the truth.
> 
> You live in fantasying land, while i live in the real world. Shit is not always black or white as you put it Bogo. "one big meaningful wins trumps all else bc you say so"
> 
> Just bc i took a step back not bc i feel that i was wrong but rather when i realize that since people will not be able to agree on a critria like theron says what he view is important seperate from mine, i back off and respected his opinion while you BOGO still insist that you are perfect, explains why so many people think you are full of shit and you are.Not full of shit as if you are a liar but more sure that you are too full of yourself.


And still, you're not making any arguments, you're just whining. Where do I insist that I'm perfect? What does that have to do with the debate? You sound like a jealous sibling with middle child syndrome. I'm proving my point and I accepted your challenge and you can't form any coherent argument to back your wildly divergent claim that Floyd is the best most accomplished fighter ever. You got backed into a corner, exposed for your lack of knowledge, so now you backtrack by saying "it's all opinion anyway" and looking for a way out. There's no reason to emphasize the fact it's opinion because most aspects of evaluating fighters, as with any athletes, involves heavy doses of opinion. Just stop. It hurts to look at. I honestly pity the meltdowns you periodically go through to prove your love for Floyd.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> And still, you're not making any arguments, you're just whining. Where do I insist that I'm perfect? What does that have to do with the debate? You sound like a jealous sibling with middle child syndrome. I'm proving my point and I accepted your challenge and you can't form any coherent argument to back your wildly divergent claim that Floyd is the best most accomplished fighter ever. You got backed into a corner, exposed for your lack of knowledge, so now you backtrack by saying "it's all opinion anyway" and looking for a way out. Just stop. It hurts to look at. I honestly pity the meltdowns you periodically go through to prove your love for Floyd.


No argument? How many times do i need to repeat the same shit over and over again. Not to mention talking to the same usual suspects who share a different pov with an ego? There is no point in continue to talk about it anymore. AGAIN not bc i feel that i am wrong but rather that i have accepted the fact that without a agreed upon set of critria it is a pointless topic.

and what point did you prove btw? by your ability to reply with long paragraphs of boring essay like responses of more your opinion?

You know sometimes, less is more. But you like to hear yourself talk.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> huh? i think you need to read the thread again if you still doesn't know where i stand about fantasy matchup and atg rankings.


Okay so with you saying that you cant compare people cause of different eras and no common opponents etc.

You cant say Floyds the best ever or the most accomplished anymore by that criteria. Okay?

edit: Just compare resume between the guys i listed and floyd



Bogotazo said:


> :rofl Right. He seemed so ready though. Was like B-Rabbit looking in the mirror all stone cold before the final battle, then going up and grabbing the mic being all "yeah it's whatever guys, it's all subjective, we don't need to battle, let's go home." Or Achilles standing outside the walls of Troy and yelling "HECTOR" over and over only to be like "you know what, war is dumb, you made a mistake anyways. Who's to say who's better? Let's go back to Greece."


:rofl:rofl
The dude that yells let me go in a fight when his friends are holding him back then when they do he throws his arms back at them and grabs their shirt and yells let me go bro come on


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> No argument? How many times do i need to repeat the same shit over and over again. Not to mention talking to the same usual suspects who share a different pov with an ego? There is no point in continue to talk about it anymore. AGAIN not bc i feel that i am wrong but rather that i have accepted the fact that without a agreed upon set of critria it is a pointless topic.
> 
> and what point did you prove btw? by your ability to reply with long paragraphs of boring essay like responses of more your opinion?
> 
> You know sometimes, less is more. But you like to hear yourself talk.


You never provided proof. Nor did you invalidate my own. You challenged me and when I met that challenge, you failed to justify your position. Resume and accomplishments are the most commonly used criteria, and by your own admission you are not equipped to utilize them for the consensus greats I posted. I'm sorry your reading level couldn't comprehend my responses in paragraph form.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Okay so with you saying that *you cant compare people cause of different eras and no common opponents etc. *
> 
> You cant say Floyds the best ever or the most accomplished anymore by that criteria. Okay?
> 
> ...


Of course i can bc i have listed the reason why he could be considered as the best given his longevity, dominance and etc and etc.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Theron said:


> :rofl:rofl


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


>


omfg :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You never provided proof. Nor did you invalidate my own. You challenged me and when I met that challenge, you failed to justify your position. Resume and accomplishments are the most commonly used criteria, and by your own admission you are not equipped to utilize them for the consensus greats I posted. I'm sorry your reading level couldn't comprehend my responses in paragraph form.


i never provided prove. Just like i correct your dumbass about you thinking bhop was undefeated when he fought Jones. Ok. no prove. you proved yourself moronic.
How about the time where you claim no one places Floyd in the top 3 atg and i provide a youtube clip of bhop claiming that he thinks that Floyd is top 3 and mickey garcia says he is number 1.

AGAIN BOGO YOU ARE SO FULL OF SHIT.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> omfg :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl


So you guys are celebrating what again? that i chose not to continue a pointless argument with bunch of closed minded idiots?


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Of course i can bc i have listed the reason why he could be considered as the best given his longevity, dominance and etc and etc.


Please explain to me why his longevity, dominance etc etc is better than Greb, Benny Leonard, Bivins, Moores

Id love to have a rational debate about this



tliang1000 said:


> So you guys are celebrating what again? that i chose not to continue a pointless argument with bunch of closed minded idiots?


Not celebrating thought it was funny. Im still waiting to have a rational debate


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@*Bogotazo*

You got low standards. You haven't proven shit, just yapping essays of more of your opinions. why you are celebrating so happily bc i chose not to waste my breath repeating the same shit for years? You sick of me schooling you and i quit so you celebrating????


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Please explain to me why his longevity, dominance etc etc is better than Greb, Benny Leonard, Bivins, Moores
> 
> Id love to have a rational debate about this
> 
> ...


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@Theron
Benny leonard. you wanna talk about longevity vs Floyd's? 
out of his first 12 fights. he lost his debut 2 nc and fought NOTHING BUT BUMS. I'm being nice to you not to engage in the argument with you and spare you from looking like a fucking retard.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@Theron the retard.

You want to talk about longevity, well here. Harry Greb. OH you show me, you know wtf you are talking about. Harry Lost his cherry in his THIRD fight. WHAT FUCKING LONGEVITY?


 
1914-01-01****** Wenzel*0*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
 referee: Tom Bodkins 
Newspaper decision for Greb from Richard Guy Pittsburgh Gazette Times and the Pittsburgh Post.
The Post reported that "Harry Grebb fought like a bearcat...and won all the way."
 1913-12-12Young Battling Nelson*1*-*0*-*0*

Mishler Theatre, Altoona, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO36
The _Altoona Mirror_ reported that the bout was halted after Nelson had been knocked down for the 3rd time in round 3.
 1913-12-06Battling Sherbine*2*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
Newspaper decision for Greb from Richard Guy (_Pittsburgh Gazette Times_) and _Pittsburgh Post_.
 1913-11-29Joe Chip*10*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USALKO26
referee: Tom Bodkins 
Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times) reported "In the semi-final Joe Chip knocked out Harry Greb with a right hook to the jaw in the second round. While Greb was down his manager, Red Mason, spit water on him in the hopes of reviving him. Seeing this move Chip rushed to the ropes and threatened Mason."
Pittsburgh Post on December 1 said "Harry Greb was around yesterday without a scratch ready to meet anyone at or near the welterweight limit. Greb has no excuses to offer, except that he met a better man and hereafter says he will not go out of his class and meet a man who weighed 156 pounds in the afternoon, while Greb only scaled 142."
 1913-11-17Mike Milko*3*-*0*-*0*

Southside Market House, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
referee: Yock Henniger 
Newspaper win for Greb from Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times), Pittsburgh Post, Jim Jab (Pittsburg Press). Listed as a win for Greb by Paxton in "The Fearless Harry Greb," although a close fight.
The Post reported that "It was fight, fight, fight all the way, Grebbs showing better footwork and more cleverness. The fans want to keep an eye on Young Grebbs."
 1913-10-22Mike Milko*3*-*0*-*0*

Tariff Club, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USADNWS66
referee: Yock Henniger 
Newspaper decision for Milko from _Pittsburgh Gazette Times_ and _Pittsburgh Post_. Newspaper decision for Greb from _Pittsburg Press_.
_The Post_ reported that "Milko carried the fight to Grebbs most of the time and landed a number of hard blows." Bill Paxton in "The Fearless Harry Greb" lists the result as a draw, after reading all newspaper accounts.
 1913-10-11Hooks Evans*1*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USALNWS66
Newspaper decision for Evans from Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times) and Pittsburgh Post. A draw from Jim Jab (Pittsburg Press), who remarked "Harry Greb, ex-amateur, was sent in to be slaughtered by Hooks Evans, the veteran" but that "Fans voted it one of the best-ever bouts" and scored it a draw."
According to the Post it was "a good bout and Greb was going strong, although outpointed."
 1913-08-13Lloyd Crutcher

Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania, USAWKO16
From the _Pittsburgh Post_.
 1913-07-19Battling Murphy*0*-*1*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO26
From the _Pittsburgh Post_. No details were given.
 1913-05-29Frank Kirkwood

Exposition Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66 


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@Bogotazo

And seriously. Quit acting like a cheerleading ho. just bc i have been blasting you for years and force you to mass mail private messages people for backup. You don't need to be so pathetic and ride ANYONE's nuts who you think have a point against me. Seriously you are really pathetic.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@Theron,

I mean what i said when i say pick any of them. I picked willie pep and what was your reply???? uh uh uh../ how do u know he doesn't have power, and is that a critria. If you going to play dumb then piss off. There was no denying that Pep fought A LOT of bums. There was no denying that Floyd beats Pep with his resume *bc you know why Floyd never got beat at the top level and Pep did. So what does that tell you. WHAT DOES COMMON SENSE TELL YOU?*


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> @Theron
> Benny leonard. you wanna talk about longevity vs Floyd's?
> out of his first 12 fights. he lost his debut 2 nc and fought NOTHING BUT BUMS. I'm being nice to you not to engage in the argument with you and spare you from looking like a fucking retard.


Leonard fought and dominated in maybe the deepest era in lightweight history. All youve done is pasted a page from boxrec man... I mean, really?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Leonard fought and dominated in maybe the deepest era in lightweight history. All youve done is pasted a page from boxrec man... I mean, really?


deep like your asshole deep. He lost his virginity before he even begun.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Why do you keep changing all your posts, You dont want to compare Floyds resume with grebs man, just dont go down there


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Why do you keep changing all your posts, You dont want to compare Floyds resume with grebs man, just dont go down there 

Do though actually, compare their best wins for me, tell me how in any way Floyds beats his


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> deep like your asshole deep. He lost his virginity before he even begun.


That rational debate...


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> Why do you keep changing all your posts, You dont want to compare Floyds resume with grebs man, just dont go down there
> 
> Do though actually, compare their best wins for me, tell me how in any way Floyds beats his


BC i have more shit to add. I like quick responses, not essays so i quick reply a little to quick.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> That rational debate...


nothing that i have just said was rational. You see why this is pointless. I provided proved and you still being a little bitch.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> @Bogotazo
> 
> And seriously. Quit acting like a cheerleading ho. just bc i have been blasting you for years and force you to mass mail private messages people for backup. You don't need to be so pathetic and ride ANYONE's nuts who you think have a point against me. Seriously you are really pathetic.


The fuck? First of all, your "blasting me" is just you making an ass out of yourself, and everyone making fun of you while trying to explain how dumb you look. It happens over and over. You say ridiculous unsubstantiated shit, I don't need to PM anyone. I'm not in middle school. There is no conspiracy-you're just that pathetic.

Look at you trying to use boxrec to cry about Greb's sparring partners instead of comparing his best wins to Floyd. You probably don't know who they are. Like I said, take some time off. We'll wait here for you.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang is a moron.

But Greb was called the human windmill, in reality his fights were all like Audley-Wilder.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> tliang is a moron.
> 
> But Greb was called the human windmill, in reality his fights were all like Audley-Wilder.


oooooooohhhhhhh the human windmill! they refer pacman a ferious beast and floyd a wizard. ooooooooooooh what can superman do?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

The scary thing is how damn worked up he gets. Worked up over shit he can't even comprehend. I feel like a bully. It was fun before but now it's a bit sad.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

This is harry Greb "the human windmill"

 
1914-01-01****** Wenzel*0*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
 referee: Tom Bodkins 
Newspaper decision for Greb from Richard Guy Pittsburgh Gazette Times and the Pittsburgh Post.
The Post reported that "Harry Grebb fought like a bearcat...and won all the way."
 1913-12-12Young Battling Nelson*1*-*0*-*0*

Mishler Theatre, Altoona, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO36
The _Altoona Mirror_ reported that the bout was halted after Nelson had been knocked down for the 3rd time in round 3.
 1913-12-06Battling Sherbine*2*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
Newspaper decision for Greb from Richard Guy (_Pittsburgh Gazette Times_) and _Pittsburgh Post_.
 1913-11-29Joe Chip*10*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USALKO26
referee: Tom Bodkins 
Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times) reported "In the semi-final Joe Chip knocked out Harry Greb with a right hook to the jaw in the second round. While Greb was down his manager, Red Mason, spit water on him in the hopes of reviving him. Seeing this move Chip rushed to the ropes and threatened Mason."
Pittsburgh Post on December 1 said "Harry Greb was around yesterday without a scratch ready to meet anyone at or near the welterweight limit. Greb has no excuses to offer, except that he met a better man and hereafter says he will not go out of his class and meet a man who weighed 156 pounds in the afternoon, while Greb only scaled 142."
 1913-11-17Mike Milko*3*-*0*-*0*

Southside Market House, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
referee: Yock Henniger 
Newspaper win for Greb from Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times), Pittsburgh Post, Jim Jab (Pittsburg Press). Listed as a win for Greb by Paxton in "The Fearless Harry Greb," although a close fight.
The Post reported that "It was fight, fight, fight all the way, Grebbs showing better footwork and more cleverness. The fans want to keep an eye on Young Grebbs."
 1913-10-22Mike Milko*3*-*0*-*0*

Tariff Club, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USADNWS66
referee: Yock Henniger 
Newspaper decision for Milko from _Pittsburgh Gazette Times_ and _Pittsburgh Post_. Newspaper decision for Greb from _Pittsburg Press_.
_The Post_ reported that "Milko carried the fight to Grebbs most of the time and landed a number of hard blows." Bill Paxton in "The Fearless Harry Greb" lists the result as a draw, after reading all newspaper accounts.
 1913-10-11Hooks Evans*1*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USALNWS66
Newspaper decision for Evans from Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times) and Pittsburgh Post. A draw from Jim Jab (Pittsburg Press), who remarked "Harry Greb, ex-amateur, was sent in to be slaughtered by Hooks Evans, the veteran" but that "Fans voted it one of the best-ever bouts" and scored it a draw."
According to the Post it was "a good bout and Greb was going strong, although outpointed."
 1913-08-13Lloyd Crutcher

Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania, USAWKO16
From the _Pittsburgh Post_.
 1913-07-19Battling Murphy*0*-*1*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO26
From the _Pittsburgh Post_. No details were given.
 1913-05-29Frank Kirkwood

Exposition Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66 


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Harry Greb lost to a guy 0-1 and ko by a guy with 10-3 but i'm a moron.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> The scary thing is how damn worked up he gets. Worked up over shit he can't even comprehend. I feel like a bully. It was fun before but now it's a bit sad.


like i said you have low standards. Feel free chiming in how harry greb showed longevity over Floyd's

 
1914-01-01****** Wenzel*0*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
 referee: Tom Bodkins 
Newspaper decision for Greb from Richard Guy Pittsburgh Gazette Times and the Pittsburgh Post.
The Post reported that "Harry Grebb fought like a bearcat...and won all the way."
 1913-12-12Young Battling Nelson*1*-*0*-*0*

Mishler Theatre, Altoona, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO36
The _Altoona Mirror_ reported that the bout was halted after Nelson had been knocked down for the 3rd time in round 3.
 1913-12-06Battling Sherbine*2*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
Newspaper decision for Greb from Richard Guy (_Pittsburgh Gazette Times_) and _Pittsburgh Post_.
 1913-11-29Joe Chip*10*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USALKO26
referee: Tom Bodkins 
Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times) reported "In the semi-final Joe Chip knocked out Harry Greb with a right hook to the jaw in the second round. While Greb was down his manager, Red Mason, spit water on him in the hopes of reviving him. Seeing this move Chip rushed to the ropes and threatened Mason."
Pittsburgh Post on December 1 said "Harry Greb was around yesterday without a scratch ready to meet anyone at or near the welterweight limit. Greb has no excuses to offer, except that he met a better man and hereafter says he will not go out of his class and meet a man who weighed 156 pounds in the afternoon, while Greb only scaled 142."
 1913-11-17Mike Milko*3*-*0*-*0*

Southside Market House, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66
referee: Yock Henniger 
Newspaper win for Greb from Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times), Pittsburgh Post, Jim Jab (Pittsburg Press). Listed as a win for Greb by Paxton in "The Fearless Harry Greb," although a close fight.
The Post reported that "It was fight, fight, fight all the way, Grebbs showing better footwork and more cleverness. The fans want to keep an eye on Young Grebbs."
 1913-10-22Mike Milko*3*-*0*-*0*

Tariff Club, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USADNWS66
referee: Yock Henniger 
Newspaper decision for Milko from _Pittsburgh Gazette Times_ and _Pittsburgh Post_. Newspaper decision for Greb from _Pittsburg Press_.
_The Post_ reported that "Milko carried the fight to Grebbs most of the time and landed a number of hard blows." Bill Paxton in "The Fearless Harry Greb" lists the result as a draw, after reading all newspaper accounts.
 1913-10-11Hooks Evans*1*-*2*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USALNWS66
Newspaper decision for Evans from Richard Guy (Pittsburgh Gazette Times) and Pittsburgh Post. A draw from Jim Jab (Pittsburg Press), who remarked "Harry Greb, ex-amateur, was sent in to be slaughtered by Hooks Evans, the veteran" but that "Fans voted it one of the best-ever bouts" and scored it a draw."
According to the Post it was "a good bout and Greb was going strong, although outpointed."
 1913-08-13Lloyd Crutcher

Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania, USAWKO16
From the _Pittsburgh Post_.
 1913-07-19Battling Murphy*0*-*1*-*0*

Old City Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO26
From the _Pittsburgh Post_. No details were given.
 1913-05-29Frank Kirkwood

Exposition Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66 


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> oooooooohhhhhhh the human windmill! they refer pacman a ferious beast and floyd a wizard.* ooooooooooooh what can superman do?*


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> like i said you have low standards. Feel free chiming in how harry greb showed longevity over Floyd's


Who said he had better longevity? He beat the better fighters. That's why he's in the top 10 of virtually any list you look at. Like your illiterate ass was already informed, fighters back then often took fights with low ranked opponents as a replacement for sparring. That's why they fought so often and had so many fights. That doesn't subtract from their best wins. Do you know who Greb's best wins are? If not, you need to stop acting like you know anything about where he should rank.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Harry Greb lost to a guy 0-1 and ko by a guy with 10-3 but i'm a moron.


Greb had no amateur experience.
He was as green as a lime during those fights.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Who said he had better longevity? He beat the better fighters. That's why he's in the top 10 of virtually any list you look at. Like your illiterate ass was already informed, *fighters back then often took fights with low ranked opponents as a replacement for sparring.* That's why they fought so often and had so many fights. That doesn't subtract from their best wins. Do you know who Greb's best wins are? If not, you need to stop acting like you know anything about where he should rank.


LOL you never run out of excuses don't you? like a little bitch always got one.


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> deep like your asshole deep. He lost his virginity before he even begun.


the hell :rofl


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Greb had no amateur experience.
> He was as green as a lime during those fights.


yeah even with Floyd's amateur record still shits on Greb's green as a lime days. losing to a 1-2 and koed by a 10. Hey buddies does his opponents have ton more amateur experience?

Does the guy with a 1-2 record have extensive amateur? Most boxers back then doesn't have amateur careers EITHER. Newsflash


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> LOL you never run out of excuses don't you? like a little bitch always got one.


Never come up with meaningful arguments do you? Those are facts. It's not my fault you're ignorant of boxing history. Man I've never met someone so intent on arguing something they knew so little about.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> *Please explain to me why his longevity, dominance etc etc is better than Greb, Benny Leonard, Bivins, Moores
> 
> Id love to have a rational debate about this*
> 
> Not celebrating thought it was funny. Im still waiting to have a rational debate


 @Bogotazo

there you wanna know who is comparing longevity? your butt plugging friend wants too.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Never come up with meaningful arguments do you? Those are facts. It's not my fault you're ignorant of boxing history. Man I've never met someone so intent on arguing something they knew so little about.


what is there to know about a fighter whose resume is littered with bums and fooled a bunch of other idiots like you.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> @Bogotazo
> 
> there you wanna know who is comparing longevity? your butt plugging friend wants too.


Well why would you accuse me of something someone else said? Get a grip.



tliang1000 said:


> what is there to know about a fighter whose resume is littered with bums and fooled a bunch of other idiots like you.


What is there to know about someone universally considered one of the greatest of all time? You should fucking find out instead of acting like you're the enlightened one :rofl So that's your defense? "What's there to know about him, he fought bums?" Fucking hell. Your ignorance is not a shield. You don't win by being stupid.

I'm tempted to move this discussion to the historic forum and see if people you never talk to can explain it to you without being harsh.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> yeah even with Floyd's amateur record still shits on Greb's green as a lime days. losing to a 1-2 and koed by a 10. Hey buddies does his opponents have ton more amateur experience?
> 
> Does the guy with a 1-2 record have extensive amateur? Most boxers back then doesn't have amateur careers EITHER. Newsflash


Does Hopkins losing his first fight (or Marquez) lower their rankings?

Greb massively improved after that and went on to beat Gene Tunney, who looks very good on film.
Boxrec warrior.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> @Bogotazo
> 
> there you wanna know who is comparing longevity? your butt plugging friend wants too.


I asked for longevity cause you said thats what you compare, I was asking for best wins and level of opposition faced and you mentioned longevity.

Then I said fine longevity then, im just trying to get you to talk boxing so catered to anything that would get you talking about it.

Then you pasted boxrec pages and started talking about my asshole...

I gotta agree with Tsol, "The Hell"


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

dyna said:


> Does Hopkins losing his first fight (or Marquez) lower their rankings?
> 
> Greb massively improved after that and went on to beat Gene Tunney, who looks very good on film.
> Boxrec warrior.


Do both of them top Floyd's longevity? so your point is?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Theron said:


> I asked for longevity cause you said thats what you compare, I was asking for best wins and level of opposition faced and you mentioned longevity.
> 
> Then I said fine longevity then, im just trying to get you to talk boxing so catered to anything that would get you talking about it.
> 
> ...


I didn't read for i already put u in check mate. give your asshole a rest man


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I didn't read for i already put u in check mate. give your asshole a rest man


Thefuk is it with you and my asshole, It was the same as tht sexysergio dude, why are you guys sexaul with me??? :|

If you werent posting boxrec pages and knew his resume and context of his fights and era, youd know Greb beat

2 guys that are almost always in Top 10 Lightheavyweight rankings - Beat Loughran 4 times, with 1 draw/ Beat Tunney once, arguably twice. Do you know how rare it is to have a guy beat 2 guys that are ranked in the top 10 all time in a division? And its not like thats all he did and all hes being judged on.

Just check Grebs 1919 year, then add the rest of his career and you should start to see.

But you dont know any of it cause you literally just compare straight from boxrec with zero context.

Youre like those guys who compare whos better by who has more wins and the deciding argument is "But this guy had more knockouts, and he had 1 less loss, hes better"


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

Fuck, this thread is still going? Someone kill it with fire please. :rofl


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Who said he had better longevity? He beat the better fighters. That's why he's in the top 10 of virtually any list you look at. Like your illiterate ass was already informed, _*fighters back then*_ _*often took fights with low ranked opponents as a replacement for sparring.*_ That's why they fought so often and had so many fights. That doesn't subtract from their best wins. Do you know who Greb's best wins are? If not, you need to stop acting like you know anything about where he should rank.


i got into an argument on the esb with some idiot regarding james toney that couldnt grasp this concept

james fought six times in 91, seven times in 93, five times in 94 and five times in 96.

fought reggie jackson six weeks after he kod michael nunn

i elect not to argue with these flomos in reference to floyds perceived greatness because flomos are generally the dumbest guys on the forum


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> i got into an argument on the esb with some idiot regarding james toney that couldnt grasp this concept
> james fought six times in 91, seven times in 93, five times in 94 and five times in 96.
> fought reggie jackson six weeks after he kod michael nunn
> i elect not to argue with these flomos in reference to floyds perceived greatness because flomos are generally the dumbest guys on the forum


Floyd is greater than James though.

And James had his fair share of bitch excuses too, claiming he was drained against Dave Tiberi (a fight he lost considered by anyone who watched it) and that he's actually a supermiddleweight. He then proceeds to fight 2 times at 160 again, one fight 2 months after Tiberi and the other against McCallum.
Also Charles Williams, and Iran Barkley are considered great performances yet Toney was "drained" against Roy.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

quincy k said:


> i got into an argument on the esb with some idiot regarding james toney that couldnt grasp this concept
> 
> james fought six times in 91, seven times in 93, five times in 94 and five times in 96.
> 
> ...


That's pretty incredible. It must have been amazing to see top fighters fight so often. Instead of some biannual shit.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> That's pretty incredible. It must have been amazing to see top fighters fight so often. Instead of some biannual shit.


Not everyone was like James though. He's a throwback. Look at Hagler as champ. Two or three times a year AT BEST.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Not everyone was like James though. He's a throwback. Look at Hagler as champ. Two or three times a year AT BEST.


Yeah for sure. Or look at someone like Julio VS Ray Leonard.

(I was hoping you'd pop up in this here thread. We miss you.)


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Yeah for sure. Or look at someone like Julio VS Ray Leonard.
> 
> (I was hoping you'd pop up in this here thread. We miss you.)


Too many uneducated Flomo's on this part of the forum mate. Even the better ones are really annoying.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> How the fuck did I get exposed when all you did was copy and paste a boxrec record of a man you never saw fight? You're a fucking idiot who shoots himself in the foot every time he opens his mouth. You tried to shit on Cervantes, clearly ignorant of the fact he's universally considered GREAT. Nice job. Now you're backtracking and distracting to try and salve face and salvage some shred of dignity. Floyd got clocked while leaning on the front foot against Judah. Don't make me bring those pictures up again, that was a fucking embarrassment for you in which the whole forum took the time to ridicule you. Dumbass, everyone knows you're a delusional troll. I was voted best poster of the forum. Now sit the fuck down before you start bleeding from this fucking beating.


ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜±

BARS.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

quincy k said:


> i got into an argument on the esb with some idiot regarding james toney that couldnt grasp this concept
> 
> james fought six times in 91, seven times in 93, five times in 94 and five times in 96.
> 
> ...


Flomos are dumb, yet you think mr October Reggie Jackson was a boxer?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Why would Leonard hate the truth


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜±
> 
> BARS.


:lol: I got way too much tribalistic enjoyment out of that.


----------



## Snakefist (Oct 22, 2012)

Mayweather isnt getting KO'd by anyone. It would be a competitive fight, Mayweather is a GREAT, lets not full ourselves. SRL would be the favorite yes, he is much bigger than Mayweather. I think Mayweather could pull it off, but I think SRL could get the decision, with his speed and aggression, similar to how ODLH almost stole a fight from mayweather at 154 via the judges.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> Fuck, this thread is still going? Someone kill it with fire please. :rofl


My thoughts exactly.
Especially when the thread title is a total misrepresentation of the context of Ray's comment.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Snakefist said:


> Mayweather isnt getting KO'd by anyone.


:think


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Why would Leonard hate the truth


Are you actually serious or just being funny?


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

SRL isn't an insecure child who cares what people think about him (you know, like Floyd is). SRL is a legitimate top ATG who was better than Floyd and SRL has the added benefit of beating his greatest rivals head to head. He beat a prime Hearns, he beat a prime Duran, a decent Hagler.

Mayweather is great, don't get me wrong. But if you grew up watching SRL, or have access to youtube, there's clearly a difference.


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2013)

He knows it's only the Mayweather fanboys that think that. So he's right to not care what they think, just like no one else should.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> SRL isn't an insecure child who cares what people think about him (you know, like Floyd is). SRL is a legitimate top ATG who was better than Floyd and SRL has the added benefit of beating his greatest rivals head to head. He beat a prime Hearns, he beat a prime Duran, a decent Hagler.
> 
> Mayweather is great, don't get me wrong. But if you grew up watching SRL, or have access to youtube, there's clearly a difference.


He beat a dehydrated drained Hearns who was schooling him until the premature stoppage, and he beat a fat out of shape Duran who had the shits and ran the whole fight and Duran couldn't be bothered. Hagler was damn near shot and beat him on most people's scorecards

#TBE #Ellerbe #Godhaymon #Trolololol


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> He beat a dehydrated drained Hearns who was schooling him until the premature stoppage, and he beat a fat out of shape Duran who had the shits and ran the whole fight and Duran couldn't be bothered. Hagler was damn near shot and beat him on most people's scorecards
> 
> #TBE #Ellerbe #Godhaymon #Trolololol


Wow. You are truly deluded.

No point attempting to have a conversation here.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> Wow. You are truly deluded.
> 
> No point attempting to have a conversation here.


:rofl come on bro


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> :rofl come on bro


Ahh, you were being funny.

But the shits was great.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> Especially when the thread title is a total misrepresentation of the context of Ray's comment.


Jesus Christ.

This is one of the greatest CHB threads of all-time.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Jesus Christ.
> 
> This is one of the greatest CHB threads of all-time.


I must check the early pages again.I know you like to fuck around with my bad memory.:lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I must check the early pages again.I know you like to fuck around with my bad memory.:lol:


Do.

Also: Check Frank Stallone throwing a fit on Twitter in the #OscarsSoWhite thread. :rofl


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> He beat a dehydrated drained Hearns who was schooling him until the premature stoppage, and he beat a fat out of shape Duran who had the shits and ran the whole fight and Duran couldn't be bothered. Hagler was damn near shot and beat him on most people's scorecards
> 
> #TBE #Ellerbe #Godhaymon #Trolololol


Ducked Pryor as well mate.No need to go easy on him.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Do.
> 
> Also: Check Frank Stallone throwing a fit on Twitter in the #OscarsSoWhite thread. :rofl


I saw your post with his tweets earlier.It's true though.Can't believe there's not more of a stink about it TBH.
He'll never get one now.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Ducked Pryor as well mate.No need to go easy on him.


Benitez didn't train.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

The only time Leonard fought somebody faster than him he got his ass slapped by Camacho.
The same Camacho who lost to a 50 year old Duran.

God knows what Zab Judah or Floyd Mayweather would have done to him.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

dyna said:


> The only time Leonard fought somebody faster than him he got his ass slapped by Camacho.
> The same Camacho who lost to a 50 year old Duran.
> 
> God knows what Zab Judah or Floyd Mayweather would have done to him.


Khan beats this guy 
#speedkills


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> Khan beats this guy
> #speedkills


Not just beats, it would be murder.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> Ducked Pryor as well mate.No need to go easy on him.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


>


He refused $700k as well.Given how shit he was at welter and the clear gulf in class he'd maybe have been better taking the career-high payday while it was there.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Benitez didn't train.


And Duran ate a steak.Proof that Leonard's wins are often constructed of smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> He refused $700k as well.Given how shit he was at welter and the clear gulf in class he'd maybe have been better taking the career-high payday while it was there.


Was he shit at welter? Or was that after time off and cocaine?

And even against Young it was a headbutt that finished him off.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Was he shit at welter? Or was that after time off and cocaine?
> 
> And even against Young it was a headbutt that finished him off.


Well I remember it that he won the IBF against some Canadian guy and and was out for maybe 3 years and apart from Young,none of opponents comes to mind with any immediacy.I can't even remember how the Young fight was a title fight but given he fought a bunch of utterly forgettable guys at the weight,it's pretty shit given the expectations and previous promise IMO.
I suppose if you interpret his career at welter as being successful because he didn't lose,you could say Spadafora's late career was pretty successful.


----------



## Royal Watcher (Nov 10, 2014)

tliang1000 said:


> How can anyone be too slick for Floyd?


Initials S.R.L.


----------



## crash (Jun 21, 2013)

Easy win for Ray,He whould finish him like he did to floyd Snr.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Well I remember it that he won the IBF against some Canadian guy and and was out for maybe 3 years and apart from Young,none of opponents comes to mind with any immediacy.I can't even remember how the Young fight was a title fight but given he fought a bunch of utterly forgettable guys at the weight,it's pretty shit given the expectations and previous promise IMO.
> I suppose if you interpret his career at welter as being successful because he didn't lose,you could say Spadafora's late career was pretty successful.


No, I just don't rate fighters based on personal feelings for another.

Also, Wikipedia is failing you. He never won a title at welter, the Hinton shitshow was his last title fight and that was at light welter. The Bobby Joe Young fight was non-title also.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> No, I just don't rate fighters based on personal feelings for another.


If I genuinely did that in this case,(and I do other times.I freely admit I am not bound by any scholarly ethics although we would be lost without people like yourself who take it upon themselves to go mostly on facts) I would go out of my way to discredit his record at 140,given he put two beatings on a fighter I have near the very top of my favourites list.
Pryor was a brilliant fighter to watch at 140,but does that mean I should say Leonard ducked him when there's far more evidence to the contrary?
And I brought Pryor into the conversation as a means of sarcastically discrediting Leonard.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> No, I just don't rate fighters based on personal feelings for another.
> 
> Also, Wikipedia is failing you. He never won a title at welter, the Hinton shitshow was his last title fight and that was at light welter. The Bobby Joe Young fight was non-title also.


Sorry I missed the second part.I thought you'd have known by now as I know I've told you at least once,I never go to wiki or Boxrec while discussing a matter which is why my memory is often unable to remind me of certain names or orders of fights.That's why I usually add some sort of notice that I could well be wrong,however that does not mean I have not looked at Boxrec (I rarely use wiki for boxing unless I end up on some sort of tangent that started elsewhere.That could well have come from me looking into the whole "Leonard ducked Pryor" nonsense.)
So no,I'm sure I'd have tried to be a bit more detailed had I gone to Wikipedia when we were having this discussion.
In fact,when I finished my last sentence I went to where I suspect I did get my info.Turns out I got the bit about the Canadian guy wrong (Still can't remember his name) but what in fact happened was that he was installed as the IBF champ after he decided not to retire.
So there may not even be a Canadian guy.I could well be thinking of another fighter completely.
So your little dig about Wiki is something I'll gladly cop to,only not on this occasion.

So,the main point you're making is that he was a roaring success at welter?(Apologies for my lack of encyclopaedic knowledge.I don't claim to have any)


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

And it was Boxing News 100 Greatest Fighters.Forgive my plagiarism.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> And it was Boxing News 100 Greatest Fighters.Forgive my plagiarism.


Well that was such an abysmal publication I got work from them after I tore it to bits ;-)

I make mistakes all the time. It happens. Only reasons I assumed Wikipedia is because I double checked my thoughts on there, and it corresponds with your recollections.

I check boxrec, it's a good source.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Well that was such an abysmal publication I got work from them after I tore it to bits ;-)
> 
> I make mistakes all the time. It happens. Only reasons I assumed Wikipedia is because I double checked my thoughts on there, and it corresponds with your recollections.
> 
> I check boxrec, it's a good source.


As I said,I'm rarely on wiki for anything other than a trail.I find it quite poor just from the presentation when it comes to records so I try to avoid them for the most part.
But I am absolutely positive I have seen the Hinton fight.Do you mean it was a shitshow because of Pryor's performance? I can only say I watched that in my early days of discovering the internet(about a decade ago.You probably know why I was late to the party) and I remember it being a fight where the kid done very well (against an obviously faded Hawk) but my only knowledge of Pryor (outwith the Arguello and Leonard issues) was intermittent mentions in old Rings and KO mags.
So I watched that fight in a bad chronology,but I always knew it was a faded Hawk.
Worth taking into account that I had a tainted view of him in 2006 because I had seen maybe two fights (in old VHS mixtapes I used to buy) that didn't feature Arguello and went on the bottle and Panama Lewis in general.
I must try and watch that fight again.
And I'm guessing there's no Canadian either?atsch


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> As I said,I'm rarely on wiki for anything other than a trail.I find it quite poor just from the presentation when it comes to records so I try to avoid them for the most part.
> But I am absolutely positive I have seen the Hinton fight.Do you mean it was a shitshow because of Pryor's performance? I can only say I watched that in my early days of discovering the internet(about a decade ago.You probably know why I was late to the party) and I remember it being a fight where the kid done very well (against an obviously faded Hawk) but my only knowledge of Pryor (outwith the Arguello and Leonard issues) was intermittent mentions in old Rings and KO mags.
> So I watched that fight in a bad chronology,but I always knew it was a faded Hawk.
> Worth taking into account that I had a tainted view of him in 2006 because I had seen maybe two fights (in old VHS mixtapes I used to buy) that didn't feature Arguello and went on the bottle and Panama Lewis in general.
> ...


There Pryor was shit against Hinton. Pryor always looked like crap against southpaws, his footwork got very muddled.

Pacquiao would've blasted him.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> SRL is extremely humble and honest. About catching Duran at the right time. About what his brother said to him and that SRL as a fighter can ko Floyd but but in reality he probably wouldn't win.


Sugar, always a class act.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

This still a thing!?


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> There Pryor was shit against Hinton. Pryor always looked like crap against southpaws, his footwork got very muddled.
> 
> Pacquiao would've blasted him.


I know there's stylistic differences,but prime Pacquaio sort of strikes me as a more refined version of the fighter Pryor _could_ have been.
Don't know if I'm explaining it right but does that make any sense to you? If Pryor had better feet,he could have retreated more,which would obviously have rounded a big problem off.


----------



## techks (Jun 4, 2013)

Its his opinion while he's long retired I'm sure he'd feel different if he was still fighting. Regardless most rightfully have him over Floyd and both are ATGs making big money I'll never touch. This really doesn't bother me I can rank them how I choose.


----------



## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> There Pryor was shit against Hinton. Pryor always looked like crap against southpaws, his footwork got very muddled.
> 
> Pacquiao would've blasted him.


Wow. A lot of folks will disagree but I also believed Pac can beat Pryor. Not by stoppage though. Pryor was like an animal in his prime.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> This still a thing!?


Sugar's okay with it, but apparently CHB wasn't. Only 1,135+ responses and 75+ pages. :rofl


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Pacquiao would've blasted him.


One of these days I'm going to hojoo you into little pieces.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

I think stylistically Pacquiao is terrible for Pryor.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> One of these days I'm going to hojoo you into little pieces.


Please do. I am like Kaluflea so be careful when you do.



PityTheFool said:


> I know there's stylistic differences,but prime Pacquaio sort of strikes me as a more refined version of the fighter Pryor _could_ have been.
> Don't know if I'm explaining it right but does that make any sense to you? If Pryor had better feet,he could have retreated more,which would obviously have rounded a big problem off.


Pryor could box well on the back foot. It's just against southpaws, he was horrendous.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Please do. I am like Kaluflea so be careful when you do.
> 
> Pryor could box well on the back foot. It's just against southpaws, he was horrendous.


You know I said I had seen two fights outside of Arguello pre-net?
Well I know it was Cervantes and a Japanese guy I think was called Kamedo and I remember he got dropped in at least one of those fights.I know he got Cervantes out quick but i'm almost positive his footwork was all over the place against the Japanese guy.
So this is where you tell me that the Jap guy was a portsider?
I only know Cervantes isn't because obviously he's more of a guy I've looked at.The other guy I only knew from fighting Marsh(sure I saw that live on ITV) but I can't remember his stance.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> You know I said I had seen two fights outside of Arguello pre-net?
> Well I know it was Cervantes and a Japanese guy I think was called Kamedo and I remember he got dropped in at least one of those fights.I know he got Cervantes out quick but i'm almost positive his footwork was all over the place against the Japanese guy.
> So this is where you tell me that the Jap guy was a portsider?
> I only know Cervantes isn't because obviously he's more of a guy I've looked at.The other guy I only knew from fighting Marsh(sure I saw that live on ITV) but I can't remember his stance.


Yep, dropped in both IIRC but Kameda was a southpaw.

So was Kim, and although Pryor battered him he still looked erratic in terms of finding the angle.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Yep, dropped in both IIRC but Kameda was a southpaw.
> 
> So was Kim, and although Pryor battered him he still looked erratic in terms of finding the angle.


You see? Even from an original disagreement I come away knowing more than I did before.:good

I make a point of not going to Boxrec mid-discussion because I feel in cheating,but I'm well aware I'm not a "two-percenter" mate,so I'm always happy to stand corrected.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> You see? Even from an original disagreement I come away knowing more than I did before.:good
> 
> I make a point of not going to Boxrec mid-discussion because I feel in cheating,but I'm well aware I'm not a "two-percenter" mate,so I'm always happy to stand corrected.


My memory is abysmal, so Boxrec is invaluable to me.

Checking boxrec and basing your argument off of Boxrec (i.e tliang) are two completely different things :good


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> My memory is abysmal, so Boxrec is invaluable to me.
> 
> Checking boxrec and basing your argument off of Boxrec (i.e tliang) are two completely different things :good


I didn't think I would spend so much time back on a thread I had condemned as inhabitable but I'm kind of happy I did now.:good


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