# Legendary Legends



## Lester1583

These guys were schooling the likes of Marquez back in the day.

The closest thing we've ever got to see to Jones-Hagler.

Bizarre, dirty, mesmerizing:





Full version:





- Quality action, gents!









@Powerpuncher
@Bill Jincock
@Cableaddict
@Zopilote
@LittleRed
@Bogotazo


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## Powerpuncher

Ref on the take? I don't know how anyone could make calls that bad.

It's a fascinating contest and the worst possibly style match up for Norwood. This is the man who would have beat Barrera, Morales, Hamed and Pacquaio if he boxed them around this time.

Norwood is at his best boxing and countering, so he would of been in his element against the forementioned men. But against the rangier faster Gainer he has to come forward and pressure him. Gainer is really sharp here counters on the way in as Norwood's head movement is too stiff and reactionary coming forward.

Still I thought it would have been near even if it wasn't for the shocking knock down calls by the ref. It's a shame Norwood stopped boxing after this, I don't know whether he gave up or couldn't get the fights but he's certainly P4P level around this time.



Lester1583 said:


> These guys were schooling the likes of Marquez back in the day.
> ]


Norwood deserved the win over JMM. Gainer has to be one of Marquez's better wins and disproves the myth that JMM can't fight on the front foot. Ofcourse Gainer couldn't fight inside and wasn't too strong. But he'd make an interesting opponent for Mayweather at 130. Arguably faster, southpaw, taller, rangier, counter puncher who's great outside.


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## LittleRed

Once, in the earlier days of the internet, I read a dissertation (and that's the only word for it) explaining why News radio was the greatest television show of all time. It probably wasn't more than 8 pages but it might have been 30.


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## Sittin Sonny

.
Poetic justice for Norwood, who cheated both on the scales and in the ring, but still ended up losing.




Powerpuncher said:


> Ref on the take? I don't know how anyone could make calls that bad.




But whose pocket would he have been in? All through the fight, it seemed that he was actually favoring Norwood IMO, until the end.

I think he was just completely incompetent, probably senile too.

Also, I think Norwood basically just quit at the end and tried to steal a DQ in a fight that he was probably losing on the cards.


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## bballchump11

This was one of the most hilarious fights ever.


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## Bill Jincock

Legendary stuff.

I never had much time for either of these two.Norwood could be effective, but was ugly as hell to watch and hardly a particularly skilled fighter.Not really any better than a Coggi or Rosi.Worse than Rosi tbh.

Gainer was a pussy, his performance against Marquez was one of the worst i've ever seen from a fighter that went into a bout quite well-rated.a poorer version of someone like Calvin Grove.


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## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Ref on the take?


Just an idiot most likely.

The world is full of them.



Powerpuncher said:


> It's a shame Norwood stopped boxing after this, I don't know whether he gave up or couldn't get the fight


Legal problems, if I'm not mistaken.



Powerpuncher said:


> It's a fascinating contest and the worst possibly style match up for Norwood.
> 
> But against the rangier faster Gainer he has to come forward and pressure him. Gainer is really sharp here counters on the way in as Norwood's head movement is too stiff and reactionary coming forward.


Yup, his feet were his curse.



Powerpuncher said:


> This is the man who would have beat Barrera, Morales, Hamed and Pacquaio if he boxed them around this time.
> Norwood is at his best boxing and countering, so he would of been in his element against the forementioned men.


Norwood, Casa, Guzman - wouldn't say Hamed and Co got lucky - more like those forgotten or underachieved fighters were unlucky - missing those big names or being involved in career-ending stinkers.

I'd say they were more or less on par with the bigger names.
Or maybe those bigger names weren't all that is what I'm implying here.

Norwood-Pac, for example, is headbutt-filled/left hand happy/controversial fun written all over it.

Norwood was desperate for Hamed _(who wasn't, except JMM?) _or anybody with a recognizable name - so desperate he even quit boxing for two years early in his career due to managerial problems and failing at securing good fights.

Check this out - nobody remembers this - Norwood is just a name on Marquez's boxrec page today, nothing more:



Spoiler



Mayweather, Norwood eye bout in 2000

Thursday, Aug. 5, 1999

Each man was there to hype another fight, yet the day may come when Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Freddie Norwood are paired in the ring.

Mayweather, the WBC junior lightweight champion, and Norwood, the WBA featherweight champ, appeared Wednesday at Mandalay Bay to promote a Sept. 11 card on HBO that will have Mayweather fighting Carlos Gerena and Norwood taking on Juan Manuel Marquez.

While Mayweather's optimum fight beyond Gerena is a unification match with IBF champ Roberto Garcia, Norwood could move into the picture by simply adding four pounds.

"I've got a lot of guys near the same weight and I'm content to let the pot bubble and see what happens," promoter Bob Arum said of a group that also includes world champions Cesar Soto, Nestor Garza, Stevie Johnston, Eric Morales and Paulie Ayala. "Right now there's not too much difference in weight between Floyd and Freddie, and that could be a huge fight in another year."

Mayweather, 22, is 21-0 with 16 knockouts and is a minus 1200 betting favorite in the Mandalay Bay sports book for his fight with Gerena, who is a plus 800. Gerena, 28, is 34-2 with 28 KOs but was unimpressive in a January fight in Las Vegas.

"He's not a pushover," Mayweather said of Gerena, who is training in Mexico City. "But I'm going to dig in and prove that I'm the best."

Mayweather's father (and trainer), Floyd Sr., has said for some time he feels his son is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world today. He reiterated that claim Wednesday, saying "I don't think Little Floyd is going to have a tough time (with Gerena). There's no doubt he's the best fighter in the business."

Mayweather vs. Gerena is the main event of a card that will be held in a 4,000-seat convention area, and one that currently is slated to be blacked out in Las Vegas. Tickets are $25 to $200.

Arum has a Mayweather vs. Garcia fight tentatively slated "for early 2000" and after an easier fight for Mayweather later this year in his Grand Rapids, Mich., hometown.

"Floyd's not quite ready for a breakout pay-per-view fight," Arum said. "Right now he's big enough for a good TV fight and a good gate with a competitive opponent, and the fight with Garcia is doable because there should be some good cable (TV) money."

Assuming Mayweather will keep winning, the pressure may be on Norwood to do the same if they're to meet in the future.

As it is, his fight with Marquez could be a struggle and the sports book lists it as even, with both men at a minus 120. Norwood, 29, is 34-0-1 with 20 KOs. Marquez, soon to be 26, is 29-1 with 22 KOs.

"I've seen Marquez a few times and he's a great fighter," said Norwood's trainer, Kenny Adams. "But Freddie is much, much better."

A victory by Norwood and he could get the winner of a Nov. 6 fight between Soto and Naseem Hamed. Another win there and, presto, Norwood vs. Mayweather would fall into place and become one of the bigger fights of any year.

"I've got to whack this kid," Norwood said of Marquez, putting first things first. "And I will. I'm good at what I do and I won't let anyone down."





Powerpuncher said:


> Gainer has to be one of Marquez's better wins and disproves the myth that JMM can't fight on the front foot.


To some extent.

But Gainer put on a simply disgraceful performance for a fighter of his talent - this was Pedroza-Taylor-like embarrassing stuff.

Not Marquez's fault, of course, but this was hardly a worthy challenger in front of him that night - even if he did possess the necessary attributes to bother JMM.



Powerpuncher said:


> Ofcourse Gainer couldn't fight inside and wasn't too strong. But he'd make an interesting opponent for Mayweather at 130. Arguably faster, southpaw, taller, rangier, counter puncher who's great outside.


_Southpaw_.

Yes, faster.

Just like we've discussed before - would have been interesting to see Floyd with someone who could test his technical abilities, well, differently - not Margarito or P.Williams - but the likes of Guzman, Cory or Casa.

Winky I don't count - too big, too stubborn, too jab-obsessed.



bballchump11 said:


> This was one of the most hilarious fights ever.


By the way, this fight is totally forgotten today but Kelly-Gainer 1 is a must watch.

Easily the 1996 FOTY, eclipsed only by the humongous Holyfield-Tyson-1.






And almost a Harris-Jefferson-like finish.


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## Bill Jincock

I wonder what possessed Gainer to choke so badly against Marquez.

It's not like he was going in against some Zarate or Olivares punching type with the kind of reputation that can get to fighters that would otherwise be solid.Marquez was mostly considered a quality standup technical fighter at the time, and not any kind of offensive beast.The fight as said, seemed to suit Gainer beforehand.


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## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> I never had much time for either of these two.Norwood could be effective, but was ugly as hell to watch and hardly a particularly skilled fighter.


You're just saying that cuz Norwood made Bungu his bitch.

Admit it.



Bill Jincock said:


> Worse than Rosi tbh.


That was actually the reason why Curry was Norwood's manager once.

He subconsciously wanted Norwood to fail - that would have reaffirmed Curry's non-existent greatness.

That's why he matched him with a prime blood-thirsty Bungu.

But Lil Hagler proved him wrong!

He proved all of you wrong!

Bad, mad and sexy!











Bill Jincock said:


> Marquez was mostly considered a quality standup technical fighter at the time, and not any kind of offensive beast.


Rafael was rated higher and considered a better fighter back then.

Good ol' days of irrelevant JMM.

I miss those.



Bill Jincock said:


> I wonder what possessed Gainer to choke so badly against Marquez.


Jones' underground cock fights.

Gainer was his cock.


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## Bill Jincock

hahah, i remember the homoeroticism between Jones and Gainer.Roy was a broken man after the Marquez fight.:lol:


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## Bill Jincock

Gradovich got schooled in that round.Looks like he's slowing a bit and starting to feel the punches too.maybe just taking a breather, but that looked a worrying round for him.


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## Bill Jincock

Gradovich landed some heavy rights there that the commentators totally missed.Selby took them well though.


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## Bill Jincock

fuck, just realised i'm in the wrong thread:rofl


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## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Norwood, Casa, Guzman - wouldn't say Hamed and Co got lucky - more like those forgotten or underachieved fighters were unlucky - missing those big names or being involved in career-ending stinkers.
> 
> I'd say they were more or less on par with the bigger names.
> Or maybe those bigger names weren't all that is what I'm implying here.
> 
> Norwood-Pac, for example, is headbutt-filled/left hand happy/controversial fun written all over it.


YEa I'd go with that I think Morales/MAB/Pacquaio are overrated to differing degrees, having said that I don't think they look out of place against Saldivar, Pep or Saddler. Who all had their own limitations. Pep's was that he could be bullied in there. Marquez for me is the best of those mentioned here.

If those match ups did happen the fans would be happy enough with the rugged fighter winning with ineffective aggression, or something like that.



Lester1583 said:


> Norwood was desperate for Hamed _(who wasn't, except JMM?) _or anybody with a recognizable name - so desperate he even quit boxing for two years early in his career due to managerial problems and failing at securing good fights.
> 
> Check this out - nobody remembers this - Norwood is just a name on Marquez's boxrec page today, nothing more:


Yea cheers for that, it's such a slight difference between the boxer no one remembers and the one who is the face of the sport.



Lester1583 said:


> To some extent.
> 
> But Gainer put on a simply disgraceful performance for a fighter of his talent - this was Pedroza-Taylor-like embarrassing stuff.
> 
> Not Marquez's fault, of course, but this was hardly a worthy challenger in front of him that night - even if he did possess the necessary attributes to bother JMM.


I think he was and Marquez took away his offense with his defence and punished every mistake. Gainer was mentally beat. I suppose he wasn't someone who could adapt when his strengths were taken away and obviously not a tough guy.



Lester1583 said:


> By the way, this fight is totally forgotten today but Kelly-Gainer 1 is a must watch.
> 
> Easily the 1996 FOTY, eclipsed only by the humongous Holyfield-Tyson-1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And almost a Harris-Jefferson-like finish.


Yea quality stuff, Kelley's last top level win.


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## dyna

An erotically pleasing fight


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## Mushin

Bill Jincock said:


> I wonder what possessed Gainer to choke so badly against Marquez.
> 
> It's not like he was going in against some Zarate or Olivares punching type with the kind of reputation that can get to fighters that would otherwise be solid.Marquez was mostly considered a quality standup technical fighter at the time, and not any kind of offensive beast.The fight as said, seemed to suit Gainer beforehand.


He just had an awful strategy and mindset in the fight. It's a shame because Marquez was befuddled by the speed.


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## turbotime

The ending to that fight may have been the craziest I've ever seen. A 20 count for a low blow :rofl


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## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> All experts voted for Pele in 1970.
> Some for Muller.
> Few for Cubillas.
> 
> I voted for Byshovets.





Powerpuncher said:


> YEa I'd go with that I think Morales/MAB/Pacquaio are overrated to differing degrees, having said that I don't think they look out of place against Saldivar, Pep or Saddler. Who all had their own limitations. Pep's was that he could be bullied in there. Marquez for me is the best of those mentioned here.


I agree and disagree.

Both Pep and Saddler are overestimated as H2H-forces and in general.

Neither looks head and shoulders above other great feathers.

"Won a round without throwing a punch!"

Legends and myths don't mean shit.

Pep does look like your usual great defensive fighter - nothing more, nothing less.
Excellent movement, nice counterpunching, good reaction, feather fisted and physically not impressive.
Even in the sole prime footage (which is inconclusive admittedly) he never makes you forget about other great defensive fighters, he never looks a cut above Floyd, Benitez, Whitaker, you name them.

He did look faded against Saddler, particularly in the legs department, but still a useful fighter, not a spent force by any means.

Angott outboxed him fair and square, by the way.

Saddler is cut from the same cloth as Monzon, Foster and Foreman - his whole style and skillset is based around his physical attributes.

A one weight fighter strictly.

A very tough proposition for many fighters - especially for those who are not 100% mentally and physically tough.

But this kind of maul/clinch/suffocating pressure/defense with your face tactics would be very risky against someone of Arguello's dimensions and power or Marquez's combination punching ability.

He was never unbeatable nor unoutboxable.

Old Saddler looked flat-out outclasses by a green Elorde - a fighter of Barrera's calibur.

Saddler would get dq'd under more stricter rules against certain boxer-type fighters or would lose a decision.

All those 3 modern mexicans have their own strengths and deficiencies that are well-known - I don't see Marquez as the one who stands out the most out of those fighters we've discussed.

Pep-Marquez/Morales is a toss-up - meaning that it's a toss-up between Pep embarrassing them or winning a wide decision - depends on how highly do you rate these two.

Saldivar is the most rounded up balanced fighter out of these.
Doesn't necessarily make him the best though.


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## MadcapMaxie

The final 2 nut uppercuts, followed by the "OHHHHHHHHHHHHH", followed by the ridiculous 20 count. Greatest ending to a fight ever :rofl


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## Bill Jincock

Lester1583 said:


> I agree and disagree.
> 
> Both Pep and Saddler are overestimated as H2H-forces and in general.
> 
> Neither looks head and shoulders above other great feathers.
> 
> "Won a round without throwing a punch!"
> 
> Legends and myths don't mean shit.
> 
> Pep does look like your usual great defensive fighter - nothing more, nothing less.
> Excellent movement, nice counterpunching, good reaction, feather fisted and physically not impressive.
> Even in the sole prime footage (which is inconclusive admittedly) he never makes you forget about other great defensive fighters, he never looks a cut above Floyd, Benitez, Whitaker, you name them.
> 
> He did look faded against Saddler, particularly in the legs department, but still a useful fighter, not a spent force by any means.
> 
> Angott outboxed him fair and square, by the way.
> 
> Saddler is cut from the same cloth as Monzon, Foster and Foreman - his whole style and skillset is based around his physical attributes.
> 
> A one weight fighter strictly.
> 
> A very tough proposition for many fighters - especially for those who are not 100% mentally and physically tough.
> 
> But this kind of maul/clinch/suffocating pressure/defense with your face tactics would be very risky against someone of Arguello's dimensions and power or Marquez's combination punching ability.
> 
> He was never unbeatable nor unoutboxable.
> 
> Old Saddler looked flat-out outclasses by a green Elorde - a fighter of Barrera's calibur.
> 
> Saddler would get dq'd under more stricter rules against certain boxer-type fighters or would lost a decision.
> 
> All those 3 modern mexicans have their own strengths and deficiencies that are well-known - I don't see Marquez as the one who stands out the most out of those fighters we've discussed.
> 
> Pep-Marquez/Morales is a toss-up - meaning that it's a toss-up between Pep embarrassing them or winning a wide decision - depends on how highly do you rate these two.
> 
> Saldivar is the most rounded up balanced fighter out of these.
> Doesn't necessarily make him the best though.


Byshovets:rofl

Loads of talent, but i could never forgive him for his stint as Russia manager.


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## thehook13

:rofl Fight lives up to the hype. It wasn't a bad fight at first I had a bunch of stuff to say then the fouls came, then the hilarity comes. Just a weird fight. 

Norwood was putting in some good work to the body but his tactics were so crude. Must of been a nightmare reffing that fight but he truly fucked it in the end. The old referee lost control of that fight. Commentary by Merchant was dry/sarcastic as ever. :lol: Good shout


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## Lester1583

dyna said:


> erotically repulsive


Kiwanuka-G.Johnson is like an espn version of Trinidad-Oscar.

It was the dark stage of G.Johnson's of underrated/overrated career.

With so many talks in the past of Johnson being an unlucky road warrior and a stalking indomitable pitbull, it's interesting to revisit the real Johnson, not the media/internet-created image.

After losing to Hop due to being a merely above average fighter at best (and he always was and stayed that), Johnson ran into the defensive wizard and the master technician Merqui Sosa, who literally dwarfed Johnson - both physically and sexually - and made Johnson fight off the backfoot (which is very unusual to see for a fan who's only accustomed to post-Jones Johnson).

Johnson lost that fair and square - it was almost like a middle fighting a boiled down light heavy.

And then he ran into Joseph Kiwanuka - a classic african huge punching powerhouse in the mold of the greatest amateur of all time, Courage Tshabalala.

Kiwanuka who began his career as a light flyweight (!) had the same career trajectory as his felow bangers Tshabalala and Dokiwari - a promising, crowd-pleasing puncher on the way up ruined suddenly by a couple of major losses.

Both fighters were coming off a 2 loss streak and were eager to rebuild their careers.

What's funny about this fight is that Johnson's opponent again towered over him - they literally looked like a division apart.

And Johnson again spent the entire fight constantly moving, jabbing, fencing and almost running at times - with Kiwanuka stalking unimaginatively, pressing the action and not scoring with anything meaningful except occasional body shots.

But most importantly shattering Johnson's future reputation of a non-stop come forward aggressor who can only be outboxed - in other words shitting all over Froch's, Tarver's and many others so-called very good fighters' mediocre artificially bloated achievements.

Johnson got robbed in that one.
Got robbed big, if you're fan of Johnson - but still got robbed even if you're his detractor.
He won that fight 6-4 at worst.

But.

He won the fight by writing the Oscar's late rounds vs Tito blueprint - via borderline embarrassing running and not commiting to anything significant at all.

Johnson actually looked pretty comfortable playing the role of a pure outboxer - there was nothing amateurish or immature about his outside game.

Little did he know that the great Conjurer of Sleep was watching him closely...


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## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Slashing Tiger Gabula Vabaza


Tim Austin is another recent american fighter who's totally forgotten today despite being rated as a P4P fighter not that long ago.

Been rewatching him lately.

A level below someone like Jibaro talent-wise _(too harsh maybe)_ and overhyped in his prime for obvious reasons but a good fighter nonetheless - a solidly-schooled boxer-puncher.

Looked much taller cuz of his build - turns out he wasn't even taller than Olivares.

His record flattened him, by the way - don't think his power was that devastating.

Injuries or managerial problems (don't remember correctly) stalled his career a bit - he was already an aging fighter by the time R. Marquez beat him.

Can see him outpointing Penalosa's lethargic ass or giving Tapia lotsa to think about.

Wasn't Tapia not too keen on facing Austin back in the day?


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## Jdempsey85

Well that was bizarre


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> "Unathletic as possible.
> The only way to succeed."
> 
> Fedor "Jazz" Cherenkov


Imagine Ali vs Lewis.

Only white and sexy.

Almost happened in the 70's:
















And the mandatory rhetorical question regarding Galindez, did he really beat Fourie the first time out?


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## Bill Jincock

Fourie has always been underrated in the "homoerotic icons of boxing" rankings.A sort of Hagler for white south africans tbh.

Did you think his fights with Galindez controversial? I can barely remember anything about them, other than the impression he didn't let his hands go enough.


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## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Did you think his fights with Galindez controversial? I can barely remember anything about them, other than the impression he didn't let his hands go enough.


Haven't seen the second fight but the first one was as close as the scorecards indicate.

Probably can be scored for Fourie without big controversy.

Galindez wasn't active enough in the first half of the fight but that was cuz Fourie was outboxing and outmaneuvering him and keeping him at bay with his very good jab.

Really was a classic high skilled boxing match.

But then Galindez got cut (in the 8th round if I'm not mistaken) and Fourie got tired and it all morphed into a sloppy hugfest with Galindez pressing the action, throwing his patented wild hooks but missing most of them and Fourie throwing weak ineffective punches and holding at every opportunity.

8-7 in favour of any fighter is fine by me.

Fourie is the antithesis of modern drilled tense boxer-runners that seen by many as technicians - a very loose natural fighter.

Just has been unlucky fighting in of the deepest eras and not coming from the US.
Definitely not worse than the well known guys like Maxim or Hill.

It's a pity there's not much footage of him - especially the Avenamar Peralta fight.

Those obscure argentinian fighters have always intrigued me - A.Peralta, Juan Aguilar, Ahumada and the aforementioned Galindez, of course - really does sound like a golden age of argentinian light heavyweight boxing.

Galindez's tendency to get involved into close fights is overplayed sometimes, I think - the Eubank or even Holmes comparisons are superficial.
The level of competition was very high - that coupled with Galindez not being head and shoulders above it (and the latter days counterpunching style) played it's significant part, rathen than him just being overrated by overzealous fans due to the cool factor.

The early 80's era on the hand is slightly overrated - with Qawi often painted as the ultra Briscoe-Frazier hybrid and Spinks rated as the unstoppable H2H-force with an impeccable resume - despite both of them fighting in a weaker era of faded old fighters, compared to the talent-filled 70's.

As Foreman would put it: "You're not a P4P fighter until you beat Richie Kates".


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## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Viktor Ponendelnik > Artime > Messi


Finally watched Griffith's controversial loss to the german madman Eckhard Dagge who was fresh off his epic win over the mythical Bahama Terror.

Strangely enough, the fight uncannily resembled Monzon-Griffith - like a 70's porn bootleg remake of a universally recognized classic.

A balding stunt cock playing the role of Griffith but mostly cuz Dagge fought and especially looked very similar to the argentinian PED abuser.

The same towering stance, the same imposing presence, the same boxing style - even the _size_ difference was the same - Dagge looked two divisions bigger Griffith.

The only difference was that Dagge was more flexible from the waist up.

Alas, the Monzon's similarities were only superficial.

Griffith looked surprisingly solid for a 38 years worn out fighter who was less than a year away from retirement.
Still had the necessary balance, still had good timing, still knew how to use his deteriorated legs.

And the jab.

The jab that won the fight for him.

Dagge despite having such _huge_ physical advantages got totally outjabbed by the smaller Griffith - basically every jab Griffith threw, it landed right on the button.

Dagge looked like Monzon but like a hangover version of him (which was highly possible) - he was content with playing the fencing game with Griffith, even though on rare occasions that Dagge did more than that and threw a combination or at least a right hand it was clear that Grifith wouldn't have been able to keep Dagge off of him.

Griffith was an old fighter with an old skilled fighter's deficiencies - he knew how to exploit lesser talented fighters' mistakes but physically was capable of executing only some of that - i.e. he was limited to playing the role of a tricky cutie by his own aging body.

I've seen much worse robberies, and the fight was a jabbing uneventful match mostly, that can probably be argued in favour of Dagge but I'd say that had the fight taken place in New York, Griffith would have pitched a shutout.


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## Sittin Sonny

Lester1583 said:


> Kiwanuka-G.Johnson is like an espn version of Trinidad-Oscar.
> 
> It was the dark stage of G.Johnson's of underrated/overrated career.
> 
> With so many talks in the past of Johnson being an unlucky road warrior and a stalking indomitable pitbull, it's interesting to revisit the real Johnson, not the media/internet-created image.
> 
> After losing to Hop due to being a merely above average fighter at best (and he always was and stayed that), Johnson ran into the defensive wizard and the master technician Merqui Sosa, who literally dwarfed Johnson - both physically and sexually - and made Johnson fight off the backfoot (which is very unusual to see for a fan who's only accustomed to post-Jones Johnson).
> 
> Johnson lost that fair and square - it was almost like a middle fighting a boiled down light heavy.


It took Johnson a while into his career before he found both a style and a weight class that suited him. At the lower weights, he didn't have the physical strength or even punching pop that he showed up at 175, and it seemed that he couldn't decide whether he wanted to be a boxer or a slugger. Once he filled out into a LHW and devoted himself to being a Bennie Briscoe-like stalker, he started to emerge as a fairly decent fighter.


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## Brickfists

Lester1583 said:


> Easily the 1996 FOTY, eclipsed only by the humongous Holyfield-Tyson-1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And almost a Harris-Jefferson-like finish.


That's one of the best fights I've ever seen.


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## Lester1583

Sittin Sonny said:


> It took Johnson a while into his career before he found both a style and a weight class that suited him. At the lower weights, he didn't have the physical strength or even punching pop that he showed up at 175, and it seemed that he couldn't decide whether he wanted to be a boxer or a slugger. Once he filled out into a LHW and devoted himself to being a Bennie Briscoe-like stalker, he started to emerge as a fairly decent fighter.


What year/fight was the turning point of Glengoffe's career in your opinion?

The Ulrich fight?

Been ages since I watched late 168/early 175 Johnson.


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## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Ok, and now back to rewatching Glen Johnson's stylistic transformation and his legendary slugfest with herr Ottke.


Almost feel sorry for poor Ottke.

The fight wasn't even controversial, let alone a robbery.

Ottke just outboxed G. Johnson fair and square.

Ottke's movement frustrated Johnson to the point of him resorting to some weird shot Jones imitation in the 8th and 9th rounds - a futile attempt at luring the elusive german slickster into a trap.

It was almost embarrassing.

Ottke is an interesting fighter (not in the conventional way) - very good movement, relatively quick hands, sound technically and a tight high guard - but does give you the impression of a feeble unconvincing amateur - despite being effective and focused at the same time.

Basically looks worse than he fights.

@Powerpuncher, I know you're a big admirer (which might come as a shock to some) of the real life Willie Pep.

Remember the days of Calzaghe and Ottke slugging it out in the interviews?

Brutal stuff!

He was a spiritual brother of the Quiet Man, @dyna


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## dyna

Ottke was a textbook perfect fighter sort of like Ricardo Lopez but against better opposition.
Reid is the only real robbery, rest of the robbery talk is just a myth or could have gone either way fights.

Always doing just enough to win a round, the only time he was ever behind on the scorecards he knew what to do (and down went Mundine)
Fine fighter even if he wasn't the most exciting, underrated power too.
But maybe his most underrated weapon was the right hand to the shoulder, the effect of it becomes apparent later in his fights as he Ottke most often had his best rounds in the last 2/3 rounds.

Henry Maske was also interesting.


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Lester1583 said:


> These guys were schooling the likes of Marquez back in the day.
> 
> The closest thing we've ever got to see to Jones-Hagler.
> 
> Bizarre, dirty, mesmerizing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Quality action, gents!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @*Powerpuncher*
> @*Bill Jincock*
> @*Cableaddict*
> @*Zopilote*
> @*LittleRed*
> @*Bogotazo*


Damn, I forgot just how much Gainer resembled Jones early in his career. Norwood was fighting dirty as hell... But I bust out laughing when Gainer landed those low blows. He tore those balls up:rofl:rofl

Very good Hagler-Jones analogy... I agree

Great thread


----------



## BoxingGenius27

Lester1583 said:


> Just an idiot most likely.
> 
> The world is full of them.
> 
> Legal problems, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Yup, his feet were his curse.
> 
> Norwood, Casa, Guzman - wouldn't say Hamed and Co got lucky - more like those forgotten or underachieved fighters were unlucky - missing those big names or being involved in career-ending stinkers.
> 
> I'd say they were more or less on par with the bigger names.
> Or maybe those bigger names weren't all that is what I'm implying here.
> 
> Norwood-Pac, for example, is headbutt-filled/left hand happy/controversial fun written all over it.
> 
> Norwood was desperate for Hamed _(who wasn't, except JMM?) _or anybody with a recognizable name - so desperate he even quit boxing for two years early in his career due to managerial problems and failing at securing good fights.
> 
> Check this out - nobody remembers this - Norwood is just a name on Marquez's boxrec page today, nothing more:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Mayweather, Norwood eye bout in 2000
> 
> Thursday, Aug. 5, 1999
> 
> Each man was there to hype another fight, yet the day may come when Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Freddie Norwood are paired in the ring.
> 
> Mayweather, the WBC junior lightweight champion, and Norwood, the WBA featherweight champ, appeared Wednesday at Mandalay Bay to promote a Sept. 11 card on HBO that will have Mayweather fighting Carlos Gerena and Norwood taking on Juan Manuel Marquez.
> 
> While Mayweather's optimum fight beyond Gerena is a unification match with IBF champ Roberto Garcia, Norwood could move into the picture by simply adding four pounds.
> 
> "I've got a lot of guys near the same weight and I'm content to let the pot bubble and see what happens," promoter Bob Arum said of a group that also includes world champions Cesar Soto, Nestor Garza, Stevie Johnston, Eric Morales and Paulie Ayala. "Right now there's not too much difference in weight between Floyd and Freddie, and that could be a huge fight in another year."
> 
> Mayweather, 22, is 21-0 with 16 knockouts and is a minus 1200 betting favorite in the Mandalay Bay sports book for his fight with Gerena, who is a plus 800. Gerena, 28, is 34-2 with 28 KOs but was unimpressive in a January fight in Las Vegas.
> 
> "He's not a pushover," Mayweather said of Gerena, who is training in Mexico City. "But I'm going to dig in and prove that I'm the best."
> 
> Mayweather's father (and trainer), Floyd Sr., has said for some time he feels his son is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world today. He reiterated that claim Wednesday, saying "I don't think Little Floyd is going to have a tough time (with Gerena). There's no doubt he's the best fighter in the business."
> 
> Mayweather vs. Gerena is the main event of a card that will be held in a 4,000-seat convention area, and one that currently is slated to be blacked out in Las Vegas. Tickets are $25 to $200.
> 
> Arum has a Mayweather vs. Garcia fight tentatively slated "for early 2000" and after an easier fight for Mayweather later this year in his Grand Rapids, Mich., hometown.
> 
> "Floyd's not quite ready for a breakout pay-per-view fight," Arum said. "Right now he's big enough for a good TV fight and a good gate with a competitive opponent, and the fight with Garcia is doable because there should be some good cable (TV) money."
> 
> Assuming Mayweather will keep winning, the pressure may be on Norwood to do the same if they're to meet in the future.
> 
> As it is, his fight with Marquez could be a struggle and the sports book lists it as even, with both men at a minus 120. Norwood, 29, is 34-0-1 with 20 KOs. Marquez, soon to be 26, is 29-1 with 22 KOs.
> 
> "I've seen Marquez a few times and he's a great fighter," said Norwood's trainer, Kenny Adams. "But Freddie is much, much better."
> 
> A victory by Norwood and he could get the winner of a Nov. 6 fight between Soto and Naseem Hamed. Another win there and, presto, Norwood vs. Mayweather would fall into place and become one of the bigger fights of any year.
> 
> "I've got to whack this kid," Norwood said of Marquez, putting first things first. "And I will. I'm good at what I do and I won't let anyone down."
> 
> 
> 
> To some extent.
> 
> But Gainer put on a simply disgraceful performance for a fighter of his talent - this was Pedroza-Taylor-like embarrassing stuff.
> 
> Not Marquez's fault, of course, but this was hardly a worthy challenger in front of him that night - even if he did possess the necessary attributes to bother JMM.
> 
> _Southpaw_.
> 
> Yes, faster.
> 
> Just like we've discussed before - would have been interesting to see Floyd with someone who could test his technical abilities, well, differently - not Margarito or P.Williams - but the likes of Guzman, Cory or Casa.
> 
> Winky I don't count - too big, too stubborn, too jab-obsessed.
> 
> By the way, this fight is totally forgotten today but Kelly-Gainer 1 is a must watch.
> 
> Easily the 1996 FOTY, eclipsed only by the humongous Holyfield-Tyson-1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And almost a Harris-Jefferson-like finish.


As a kid, I use to always get Kevin Kelley and Martin Lawrence confused. I remember when Kelly and Hamed fought for the first time, I remember thinking "WTF is Martin doing boxing". hahahaha


----------



## Sittin Sonny

Lester1583 said:


> What year/fight was the turning point of Glengoffe's career in your opinion?
> 
> The Ulrich fight?


Yes, and the move to 175 in general.

Under 175, Johnson was being outmuscled and overpowered by fighters like Sosa and Omar Sheika.

The Ulrich fight is the one in which he first showed some pop on his punches, although he still fought mostly as a boxer/counterpuncher IIRC.

I think the Julio Gonzlez fight is the one where he first introduced his relentless, swarming attack style, for which he would be known through the rest of his career (although he did revert back to his old boxing style on occasion).


----------



## Lester1583

Sittin Sonny said:


> Omar Sheika.


Whom G.Johnson beat, by the way.
By using his boxing skills again.
Although it hardly took a sophisticated technician in order to pull that feat off time and time again.

The judges probably got overexcited due to Johnson getting roldan'd in that fight.

Was it the only time Glen was down officially?



Sittin Sonny said:


> the Julio Gonzlez fight


JC Gonzalez was da man.

Utterly mediocre but the heart of a champion.

Still don't know how he got up from that third Letterlough knockdown.

Mr. KO was an enormous puncher.

On a side note, it's a misconcepcion that Jones hasn't fought any punchers at 175 - both Telesco and Hall especially could punch - the problem was it's all they could.


----------



## PivotPunch

Ottke was such an ugly fighter to watch. The guy who took kalenga's 0 had a similar style I think for certain fighters especially guys witha puncher mindset, not so high workrate and especially with slow feet are fucked against guys like Ottke because they try to do everything not to make it a fight but only a game of tag. Not sure if Silakh would beat kalenga but he dominated the guy who beat kalenga first.

Just an ugly fight. 
Malignaggi is physically similar as in tough but not powerful but he can even win a proper fight with his boxing technique, ottke on the other hand was pure poison to watch just like Schulz.
Henry Maske was the most skilled German boxer I have seen beside Schmeling. And Michalczewski was skilled as well


----------



## dyna

Maske his comeback win over Virgil Hill is among the greatest ever.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Henry Maske was also interesting.


Maske was a good upright european fighter.

German straight-punching war metal machine.

Certainly better than someone like a former P4P Dawson.

He blew it against Hill though - fought according to the Hagler's blueprint of giving away the early rounds - probably ate a plate of spaghetti the night before the fight.

But:



dyna said:


> his comeback win over Virgil Hill is among the greatest ever.


redeemed himself unlike the money-grabbing whiner.


----------



## Lester1583

PivotPunch said:


> Henry Maske was the most skilled German boxer I have seen beside Schmeling.


It's a good question actually.

@Powerpuncher
@Bill Jincock
@LittleRed
@Berliner
@Vysotsky

Who you got?

Morpheus Ottke? Rocchigiani maybe? Feminist Bubi Scholz? Drunken Angel Dagger? Rudiger "Conteh'd" Schmidtke? Manuel Charr?


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Almost feel sorry for poor Ottke.
> 
> The fight wasn't even controversial, let alone a robbery.
> 
> Ottke just outboxed G. Johnson fair and square.
> 
> Ottke's movement frustrated Johnson to the point of him resorting to some weird shot Jones imitation in the 8th and 9th rounds - a futile attempt at luring the elusive german slickster into a trap.
> 
> It was almost embarrassing.
> 
> Ottke is an interesting fighter (not in the conventional way) - very good movement, relatively quick hands, sound technically and a tight high guard - but does give you the impression of a feeble unconvincing amateur - despite being effective and focused at the same time.
> 
> Basically looks worse than he fights.
> 
> @Powerpuncher, I know you're a big admirer (which might come as a shock to some) of the real life Willie Pep.
> 
> Remember the days of Calzaghe and Ottke slugging it out in the interviews?
> 
> Brutal stuff!
> 
> He was a spiritual brother of the Quiet Man, @dyna


Ottke boxed punch perfect, made no mistakes and pounced on any opening while controlling the exchanges with his footwork. He wasn't athletically talented so wasn't at all flashy but managed to be first against better athletes. His conditioning to continually launch attacks and stay on his toes though was good, he outworked pretty much everyone. If you look at the fights he supposedly got gift in, he was clearly outlanding his opposition so in terms of clean punching he was winning, even against Reid he outlanded his man. Now obviously in the fights against Reid and Brewer his opponent landed the better more damaging punches, so maybe you give them rounds for effective aggression/ring generalship.....maybe. As for the Johnson/Mitchell fights, myth really. I need to watch the Tate/Larsen fights as they've been called robberies, although whether that's the public not warming to Ottke's light scoring punches I don't know.

As for Calzaghe I thought he only called Ottke out after the Reid fight. The calculated nature of Calzaghe's career considering his talent was horrible. Pulling out of the Glen Johnson fight 2 or 3 times, then wanting to pull out against Lacy because he had some strain or another, that would have essentially ruined his career.

Joe probably is all wrong for Ottke though. Comparing him to Ruiz though, pure blasphemy.

I'm not really a fan as such, but I really do appreciate what he does. He's not as polished as Kalambay but I wonder if @Flea Man feels the same way?



PivotPunch said:


> Malignaggi is physically similar as in tough but not powerful but he can even win a proper fight with his boxing technique, ottke on the other hand was pure poison to watch just like Schulz.
> Henry Maske was the most skilled German boxer I have seen beside Schmeling. And Michalczewski was skilled as well


Malignaggi has no defence, where as Ottke did. Ottke, Schulz, Rohiagniani and Maske all of the high guard technically well schooled Eastern European boxing school. Ottke has the best lateral movement and footwork of those men, the other 2 you could make the case they had better jabs.Maske was physically more imposing and stronger than Ottke. More skilled, no, Ottke was winning world rally championships in his Nissan Micra.


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> It's a good question actually.
> Morpheus Ottke? Rocchigiani maybe? Feminist Bubi Scholz? Drunken Angel Dagger? Rudiger "Conteh'd" Schmidtke? Manuel Charr?


Or maybe I'll just leave this here:


----------



## dyna

I can't tell what's more brutal, demolition hammer or Sven Ottke his KO on that southpaw.











Also is that the only southpaw Sven fought?


----------



## PivotPunch

Powerpuncher said:


> Ottke boxed punch perfect, made no mistakes and pounced on any opening while controlling the exchanges with his footwork. He wasn't athletically talented so wasn't at all flashy but managed to be first against better athletes. His conditioning to continually launch attacks and stay on his toes though was good, he outworked pretty much everyone. If you look at the fights he supposedly got gift in, he was clearly outlanding his opposition so in terms of clean punching he was winning, even against Reid he outlanded his man. Now obviously in the fights against Reid and Brewer his opponent landed the better more damaging punches, so maybe you give them rounds for effective aggression/ring generalship.....maybe. As for the Johnson/Mitchell fights, myth really. I need to watch the Tate/Larsen fights as they've been called robberies, although whether that's the public not warming to Ottke's light scoring punches I don't know.
> 
> As for Calzaghe I thought he only called Ottke out after the Reid fight. The calculated nature of Calzaghe's career considering his talent was horrible. Pulling out of the Glen Johnson fight 2 or 3 times, then wanting to pull out against Lacy because he had some strain or another, that would have essentially ruined his career.
> 
> Joe probably is all wrong for Ottke though. Comparing him to Ruiz though, pure blasphemy.
> 
> I'm not really a fan as such, but I really do appreciate what he does. He's not as polished as Kalambay but I wonder if @Flea Man feels the same way?
> 
> Malignaggi has no defence, where as Ottke did. Ottke, Schulz, Rohiagniani and Maske all of the high guard technically well schooled Eastern European boxing school. Ottke has the best lateral movement and footwork of those men, the other 2 you could make the case they had better jabs.Maske was physically more imposing and stronger than Ottke. More skilled, no, Ottke was winning world rally championships in his Nissan Micra.


Malginaggi has ok defence but perfect but if he had shit defence then he wouldnt last with guys like Cotto.

Ottke was pretty good defensively but he was much better going backwards he couldn't do both punch and defend that's why he slapped most of the time because if he punched for real he would get hit a lot more often. Schulz didn't have great defence he had ok defence he had absolutely nothing beside keeping his hands up for some fighters the high guar dis the first line of defence but there are very few fighters who are really good defensive fighters whose firs tline of defence are the hands. There's winky and maybe Clottey and Abraham and that's it.

Schulz didn't have great defence you have to look no further than the Wlad fight where he was helpless because all he could do was keep his hands up and just lik Ottke he basically put himself in ahndcuffs offensively.

maske used distance, angles and his jab as defence first holding his hands up was his last line of defence not his first he is totally different from Schulz. And even Ottke's first line of defence wasn't his high guard he used it but still wasnt dependant on it like Schulz was, ottke had a well rounded defence. he could move hsi head used distance, movement and everything equally. Usually boxers who's first and mostly only line of defence is the high guard have shit defence. Ottke and Maske weren't high guard dependant and Makse didn't even use the high guard for defence much.

Ottke was in many close fights that I think he should have lost the Reid fight was especially horrible because of the ref not just the judges so that fight you can call a robbery. That's the difference though between pro and amateur boxing and Ottke has a complete amateur style and damage is beside punches landed the most used judging criteria. I Ottke won only won close fight ok but if you winn all close fights chances are someone wants you to win and the Reid fight just was a disgrace.

Tbf beside the Reid fight i can't say much about hi fights because it's been a long time that I watched them and I can't say that I'm eager to do it again


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> - I'm the 80's.


Speaking of powah and textbookness.

Have rewatched Zarate-Davila a couple of days ago.

Zarate, as we all know, was a technical version of Arguello, who was a more durable version of Louis.

For this kind of stalk-and-destroy fighter Zarate was pretty much the apex of evolution - hardly any glaring technical flaws in his game.

In addition to being a physically imposing fighter at the weight.

And yet hobbit Davila was outboxing him from a distance/or at least fighting on even terms - which speaks volumes of how perfectly schooled was Davila.

And also says a lot about Gomez and Happy Lora.

It was only Zarate's power, size and an underrated inside fighting ability that made the difference - he didn't really prove he was better than Davila in every single aspect of boxing, he simply broke him down.

Out of the prominent bantamweight champions Canizalez is the one Davila matches up well with.

Orlando arguably was more skilled than Z-machine or say Chandler but that non-aggressive aggressive style of his would have given Davila a chance to maximize his strengths.

On a side note, Zarate's left rarely gets mentioned but it was pretty diverse and educated.


----------



## Bill Jincock

:lol:

Davila was class.You don't really see fighters like that coming up against the same roadblocks nearly as much anymore, guys that have nailed everything technically, but aren't physically gifted enough to get past the real top P4P types.Now due to the overall inferior level of training and lesser participation levels they are more likely to be a long running champ or star themselves simply due to that high level of textbook expertise.Ward and Rigondeaux are good examples of that imo.Neither would have been gifted enough in terms of physicality +technique to get the very top for long in one of the historically stronger 118\122 or pre-168 light heavy scenes


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> roadblocks


Isn't it curious how infinitely stronger, more assertive and flat-out better Herol Graham looked against a more technical albeit less physically imposing Palvik's predecessor in Kaylor than Martinez's feeble ass?

And yet unlike a prime Martinez Graham has never won a single hypothetical forum fight, let alone cracked anyone's P4P lists.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Bayern devastated
> Muller's on its knees
> A soviet comes from out the skies
> In answer to our pleas


There are many styles - sluggers, spoilers, jabbers, kazakhs and so on and so on.

But the most unique and the best category of fighters are the ones that look cuter than they actually are.

Tatsuyoshi was one of them.

He looked very poised and refined, cool even in only his second pro-fight.

Nice movement, good combinations, almost a mature fighter.

Maybe too cool.

He got dropped by a left hook from his non-descript thai opponent in the first round.

But Joichiro gets up nonchalantly with a smile like "Yeah, I had this planned all along. Just a part of my winning strategy".

He won that fight via a paralyzing body shot.

That was the beginning of Tatsuyoshi's meteoric rise to greatness that saw him destroy Sirimongkol Singwancha so devastatingly, the poor fellah turned into a gay movie stunt cock.

Such is impact of imaginary smoothness on lesser men.


----------



## Bill Jincock

Tatsuyoshi is a legend, one of the most exciting fighters of the 90s.

But yeah he fought like he was just trying to emulate his hero Napoles, with the chest high guard and constant attempt at smooth head-slips, dictating things at his own smooth pace...only to get drawn right into brutal wars against anyone decent.:lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> - I know you can hear me.


A very short footage of super middleweights - Galindez vs Ahumada 1:





Galindez stops Ahumada.
With only 7 fights under his belt.
Galindez was matched tough early - which is rarely gets brought up - no wonder his career lasted only 10 years.

Been rewatching some early Galindez.

The R-rated massacration that was his first fight with Kates really makes you think of what was and what could have been.

Everybody's familiar with a latter days Galindez - a canny deceptively awkward winning-close-eubank-like-decisions-over-very-good-opponents counterpuncher.

But a wild swinging aggressive boxer-puncher in the Locomotora mold of the Kates 1?

And he does look as aggressive against Ray Anderson (in the second round at least) in his pre-title fight.

And he does look excellent against Ray Anderson, a finished product basically.

What if...

What if Galindez that we all know was already, well not declining, it's a harsh word, but more like maturing and slowing down.

What if Kates 1 was a peek at prime Galindez?
The complete aggressive boxer-puncher, not a frustratingly lackadaisical rope-a-dope fighter limited by his counterpunching/do-just-enough mentality.
The last glimpse of a fighter that went through the argentinian murderers' row.
Similar to slim, hairy, fleet-footed Locche who was schooling the likes of Ortiz on gigantic chilian stadiums in front of mesmerized Omar Sivori and screaming personal groupies: Ringo B, Carl Monzy and Coggi Bopper (also known as the Girl Power Trio).
But to the rest of the world he is known as the funny italian guy who killed some japanese janitor via the pink eyebrows feinting of death.

Or maybe Galindez was just an incostistent lazy fat boy - who can tell for sure without footage.

As a side note, the more I rewatch the championship years Galindez, the more I don't like his chances against Conteh.


----------



## allenko1

This is supposed to be about Gainer vs Norwood!


----------



## Lester1583

A howitzer loaded with Bernard Taylor, Lara and Gainer is what should have ended Pastrano's life.


----------



## Lester1583

allenko1 said:


> This is supposed to be about Gainer vs Norwood!


It was never about Norwood.

He was used as a pawn.

Obscure light heavyweights & soviet sex symbols discussion was the plan all along.


----------



## Lester1583

15 minutes of Monzon training in color in good quality:





@Phantom


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> 15 minutes of Monzon training in color in good quality:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Phantom


Thank you Lester...amazing quality considering that most Monzon training clips are in less than first class b/w...filmed in Argentina. Monzon was highly specialized in his trtaining regimen. He never engaged in gym wars...he thought it was foolish in that the fighters expended themselves btoo much and took too much body sapping punishment..."leaving their best in the gym" as he put it in an old interview. He liked to concentrate on "certain things" pertaining to certain aspects of his ring strategies that he'd use vs a particular opponent.n I've never seen this before...excellent!:cheers Monzon was ice cold perfection.


----------



## tommygun711

Great find lester


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> Runnin' like a freight train
> Passing' like an aeroplane
> Playin' like a space brain
> One more time tonight


Progress and it's price is an interesting topic.

We've discussed a bit it before.

Duran and his domination of Buchanan - never again the Poo Man recaptured that all-guns-blazing intensity.
Sure, he had to adapt his game as he learned, grew and faced different opposition, especially at the higher weights.
But still.

Azumah too.

Or a slightly different example - Benitez.

Personally I've always found his stubborn inclination toward flat-footededness mildly irritating and artificially, needlessly limiting.
Sure, he could afford that being the possessor of one of the best defensive radars in boxing history.
But still.
The Cervantes fight is his most orthodox and textbook performance and it's just one the best pure boxing exhibitions ever.
Never again he fought with such a professional no nonsense attitude utilizing all of his talents.
Yes, there were some exceptions - the Ranzany fight - but never again on the level of that fight.

On a side note, that slow stick-n-move/outbox fighting is one of the few things Floyd is not good at.
This is one of the reasons I've always hesitated to pick him over someone like Trinidad.
"Oscar did it! Floyd is better! So he could do it too!"
The problem is they are different fighters.
Floyd is not a classic "constant movement/slow gliding/piling up points with a jab and quick short combinations" fighter.
He's much more jittery and plant-n-punch counterpuncher - closer to Leonard than to someone like Sumbu or Kalulesai.
Early in his career at least he was - at the higher weights he unsuccessfully mutated into a poor man's Cunto type of a defensive master.

The Cervantes SD card is as unexplainable as Mcgirt's head shape, by the way.


----------



## Bill Jincock

:smile

Sup Lester.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> :smile
> Sup Lester.


Not much, just chillin', watchin' some Russian Rivelino of the mighty Rotor:


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> The Toney fight probably would've been similar to the Jirov fight, only Calzaghe was fleet footed rather than flat footed so I'll take him to overcome some shaky moments and win a decision.


Had this comment been made by someone else, it would have been righfully ignored.

But.

It comes from someone who some regard as a guy who is not totally hopeless in terms of boxing knowledge.

Which is why it makes the whole thing twice as disturbing.

There has been an understandable but worrying shift in opinions for the past 5-7 years.

With Toney becoming more and more of a cement-footed counterpuncher/outworkable inside fighter in the eyes of the most and Calzaghe morphing slowly into a Greb-reincarnation - unpredictable, unreadable, highly intelligent, stylistic conundrum for anybody who's slower than a prime Jones/smaller than Spinks.

Which is maybe true but only to some (some) extent.



el Zidane del CÃ¡ucaso said:


> btw i don't think Toney was all that bad with his feet either potentially-he didn't have the same inherent balance issues someoen like Eubank seemed to when punching while coming forward or having to quickly plant his feet- but he WAS wildly inconsistent and lazy with it.


Cal really isn't the kind of a mover who was Toney's worst nightmare.

He's too open, attack-minded, stay-in range-type of a fighter for that.

You need to be more defense-oriented, stick-n-move boxer or a borderline negative spoiler to trouble Toney, to make him lead consistently, to make him play the role of an aggressor most of the time.

Toney's problems weren't strictly technical - they were partially mental - the burger king mentality hampered his attacking game.

Cal's style I've always felt was unjustly overly critisized by the western fans for being ugly and aesthetically unpleasing - it was unorthodox and rosenbloomish but never boring, in my opinion.

Cal's style is more suited to dealing with stiffer unimaginative boxer-punchers or come-forward sluggers - which is not the knock on him, as many good fighters struggle with power or crumble under simple pressure.

Not with a fluid precise right hand counterpuncher.

Who's tendency to get outworked is largely overblown due to the infamous Tiberi fight.

Cal wasn't even the faster fighter with his hands - faster with his flurries maybe but that's about it.

One thing that always separated Cal from many protected champs - he wasn't a bitch inside the ring - which is why the Hop's fight can't be scored for the old BDSM-master.

Someone like a fellow super middle champ Liles _(Jones ducked him!)_ despite being the bigger, rangier, ok skilled and comparatively accomplished at the weight would be a good fight for Cal's talents to shine.

Or the forgotten hard punching Lindell Holmes.

These are the kind of fighters that would have given some other champs tougher fights than to Cal.

Don't argue with this post.

Read it.

Memorize it.

Practice it twice a day.

I believe in you.

Good luck!


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Calzaghe morphing slowly into a Greb-reincarnation


Rewatching Calzaghe-Salem wasn't the best idea nonetheless.

Rough demo version of Cal-Hop.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> - The time has come to reveal the secret of my trunks


Usually it's some shitty music/pointless slo-mo's/useless analyses.

But this highlight video is really good - the man who should have been ruling the 00's:


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Or maybe I'll just leave this here:


You know Guzman's my favourite, but he was definitatley avoided by Pacman, Morales, Barrera and Marquez. Between 04-07 he beats the lot of them and becomes a P4P Legend, barring Arum's pre agreed robberies. Remember a lucid Roach saying Guzman was the wrong style for Pacquaio? He was right.

Still he flushed his career down the toilet not doing the roadwork to make weight. You can't have too much sympathy for him, he had his chance to make the big fights and ruined it.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> - Can you help me, dear sir? I'm looking for the Barking Master.


Worry not, my friend - I've got what you need.

Here it is - a rare Floyd Sr fight:





Joy Boy proves why he was right when he prophesied about his son: "Most children are disappointments. Not worth the effort to raise."

Benton roll, blurring handspeed that exceeds even the superfeather Mayweather, sloppy punching technique, elbow to the face - it's all here in its original glory.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Worry not, my friend - I've got what you need.
> 
> Here it is - a rare Floyd Sr fight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joy Boy proves why he was right when he prophesied about his son: "Most children are disappointments. Not worth the effort to raise."
> 
> Benton roll, blurring handspeed that exceeds even the superfeather Mayweather, sloppy punching technique, elbow to the face - it's all here in its original glory.


Thanks, always wanted to see more of Daddy Floyd and he is almost a carbon copy of Jr with a few differences. He doesn't move as much and doesn't slide off to the opposite side of where he punches as Jr does. Everything is off the jab unlike Floyd's lead. The straight right isn't as good either and I'd imagine Floyd's got better from working with Rodger. And as you mentioned very slappy punches at times. That's the supposed past prime literally shot version of Floyd Sr though.

Is that your channel or 1 you subscribe to?

Starling and Jeff Mayweather chatting about modern boxing, Floyd and past boxers. Starling likes talking in the third person so much that he even calls Breland 'Marlon Starling' at one stage.






Jeff breaks down the padwork, punching techniques they use in the video below. As you can see here they don't advocate powerpunching techniques like bringing the hips, waist and back into play so much, while they do transfer bodyweight. No moving from the waist and back while slipping punches either. That's the difference between there and Toney's style, essentially Toney is more skillful but doesn't have the physical advantages or stamina of a prime Floyd.






Like in the 80s with the Ali clones, it's become a fad in boxing now to copy Floyd's stance, punches and movement. But they're actually copying allot of what he does wrong without managing to replicate the subtle things he does right.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Daddy Floyd and he is almost a carbon copy of Jr with a few differences.


Going back to our previous conversation - Floyd jr is the stiffest fighter of the family.

Even Jazzy Jeff was much smoother as evidenced by his wide loss to the great Joey "Dream Lover" Gamache:





Although it's arguable whether it was smoothness that Jeff exuded.

Or maybe it was the banal ineptitude.



Powerpuncher said:


> Is that your channel or 1 you subscribe to?


No, that's not my channel - just some guy's channel who uploads some rare stuff.

Flea Man probably knows him.



Powerpuncher said:


> Starling and Jeff Mayweather chatting about modern boxing, Floyd and past boxers. *Starling likes talking in the third person so much that he even calls Breland 'Marlon Starling' at one stage.*


:lol:

Barely made it past the 10th minute mark, to be honest - felt like I was reading Burt Bienstock's posts on the days of yore when listening to Starling.



Powerpuncher said:


> Jeff breaks down the padwork, punching techniques they use in the video below. As you can see here they don't advocate powerpunching techniques like bringing the hips, waist and back into play so much, while they do transfer bodyweight. No moving from the waist and back while slipping punches either.


Interesting stuff.

Our trainer had always adamant about punching with the whole body behind it.

It has to be a single motion always - leg drive, turning the body, punch itself.

Interestingly enough our powerlifting trainer said the same thing about a bench press - the powerlifting version of it, obviously - one single non-separate motion, like a punch in boxing, he said.

The hook technique - elbows low, the whole arm is low - is also differs from the one I've been taught:



Lester1583 said:


> The correct way to throw a punch (hook or straight) is to throw it so that your elbow is slightly higher than your wrist, wrist slightly bent, hit with two knuckles mostly - like you're always punching a shorter opponent.
> You turn your body, left leg and throw a hook in one single motion - your whole body must work in unison when you throw a punch.
> 
> Plenty of fighters throw a left hook like they are trying to reach a taller guy - leg-drive, swing, fist itself, elbow's position is not important/often lower than a wrist - which is a no-no according to orthodox trainers - no matter how tall your opponent is.
> 
> In other words, had Frazier's left hook been as mysteriously perfect as GGG's, Ali wouldn't have gotten up.





Lester1583 said:


> Funnily enough, the hardest puncher I've seen in person was a guy who threw the palm facing inwards right hook - anybody he touched got hurt or knocked out.
> Was predictable as hell and had horrible stamina - couldn't even carry his power into later rounds (and those were 3-4 rounds amateur fights).





Powerpuncher said:


> essentially Toney is more skillful but doesn't have the physical advantages or stamina of a prime Floyd.


Wouldn't say Toney had inferior stamina - more like he was much less disciplined between the fights which in turn affected some of his performances and eventually his career and ATG standings.

When he was in shape he was actually pretty active, despite him painted today as an easily outworkable counterpuncher - even a fat, old cruiser Toney was able to keep up with the non-stop punching Jirov.



Powerpuncher said:


> Like in the 80s with the Ali clones, it's become a fad in boxing now to copy Floyd's stance, punches and movement. But they're actually copying allot of what he does wrong without managing to replicate the subtle things he does right.


True.

Like his latter days style or not, Floyd certainly left his mark on the world of boxing.



Powerpuncher said:


> No moving from the waist and back while slipping punches either.


Have you seen this old video?

Floyd talks a bit about his rhythm:
[video=youtube;YqOJp9Wmayo]



[/video]


----------



## dyna

Toney his relax attitude certainly helped him with stamina.


----------



## Lester1583

Been rewatching some young Leonard - the Geraldo and A.Viruet fights.

Leonard was just about to hit his prime - still had a few weaknesses - not consistent enough with his attack, some unnecessary movement, etc.

Geraldo was better than his record would indicate but still he was no Engels Pedroza and not that hard to put away, and yet both Hagler and Leonard failed to look good against him.

Leonard, who even got wobbled by Geraldo, especially so.

Forum topics would have been great after these 2 fights - "feather fisted", "suspect chin", "I'm not impressed!", "overrated!!!" and of course "ducks _insert a name_".

And what shitstorm would have ensued if there was a live stream of this epic TKO 7, it's hard even to imagine:









Luckily for modern fighters people are much smarter today.


----------



## Lester1583

Geraldo - Caveman Lee was a good one-rounder:


----------



## dyna

Adolfo Viruet also had some success against Duran from what I've read in a close fight.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Adolfo Viruet also had some success against Duran from what I've read in a close fight.


A post-Buchanan/late 70's Duran putting on an uninspired performance against a non-heralded, non-threatening opponent in a non-title fight seems totally plausible.

Although this report for example doesn't say it was particularly close:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=KRMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3296,5714395&hl=ru

A.Viruet also gave green Curry problems with his awkward style.

This kind of fights are essential for rising prospect's development.

Marion Wilson, Boone, Baptist, Sanderline Williams, etc.

The slick old *****, as Jones would put it (he's Russian - they're all racists over there).

By the way, Curry was scheduled to meet Cuevas in 1982 after Viruet.
Cuevas got injured and Curry fought and beat Starling instead.


----------



## Lester1583

Speaks volumes of Norris's magnanimity that he didn't put Leonard in a wheelchair for life.

After the pre-fight video of Leonard interviewing himself no one would have judged him for that.


----------



## nuclear

meh. JMM deserved the W against norwood


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> - Messi's a bitch!


Kalule - Hallacy is like a softcore european porno.

So smooth and gentle.

Last Tango before Leonard.


----------



## Lester1583

Kid Dynamite was rated the best P4P puncher in the world by KO Magazine in 1997.


----------



## Lester1583

When Benitez had an off-night, he really had an off-night.

Like Rigo injected with Floyd's IV.

Excruciatingly frustrating.

Benitez - Weston 1 I scored 10-0.

In favour of Weston.

Should have retired after Cervantes.


----------



## boxfanlut

Might as well change title of this page


----------



## Lester1583

Chavez - Whitaker was greater.

Pac - Floyd was bigger.

Oscar - Mosley flashier.


But Curry - Starling 2 is the most hardcore of them all.


The first fight is a rehearsal.
Both were a bit raw - Curry especially, physically especially.

But the second one is up there with El Feo - Griffith as far as evenly-matched outstanding technical action is concerned.
More casual-friendly than the incomprensible jazz-rock of the controversial tetralogy.
Still less celebrated than the critically acclaimed McCallum-Kalambay rivalry.

The inside fighting elaborateness hasn't been equaled since then.


----------



## Michael

Lester1583 said:


> *When Benitez had an off-night, he really had an off-night.*
> 
> Like Rigo injected with Floyd's IV.
> 
> Excruciatingly frustrating.
> 
> Benitez - Weston 1 I scored 10-0.
> 
> In favour of Weston.
> 
> Should have retired after Cervantes.


Bruce Curry beat the shit out of him in their first fight to and deserved the decision.

But when Benitez was good, he was out of this world. His title win over Cervantes was incredible, a 17 year old kid taking to school a veteran champion and making him look an amateur. One of the finest left-handed displays ive ever seen.

Benitez is still an enigma for me and I think you could argue that he had as much, if not more natural talent than Duran/Hagler/Leonard/Hearns. He was just the archetypal lazy bastard who was so talented he thought he didn't need to train as hard as he should have. The fact that he gave Sugar Ray one of this toughest fights on only a few weeks training says a lot about him to. Anyways, regardless of shortcomings, El Radar remains one of my favorite fighters, a joy to watch at his best. Shame how he ended up to.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Sugarboy Malinga: In the process of ... another challenger:


Gans the best filmed outdated fighter?

Plenty of questionable stuff - chin up in the air a la Valero, straight back, lack of head movement, etc.

But looks like a deadly counterpuncher/ring general with impeccable timing.

Still more modern than Froch though.

But then again Gans had never ko'd a prime gingerbread boy in front of 80.000 screaming fans.

So there's that.


----------



## Lester1583

The humiliating ease with which the Twerk Master Johnny Persol schooled Bobo Olson, does it solidify Joey Maxim's standing as a poor man's Hill or just reaffirms his lofty "ain't shit" status?


----------



## Lester1583

Quincy Taylor - Otis Grant.

That's exactly what happened to Leonard.

Exactly.


----------



## NoMas

That is one of the most incompetent referees Ive ever seen haha Thanks for posting though, Ive never seen that fight... Why was the ref counting to 20 seconds then called the fight off??? :lol:


----------



## NoMas

Also those taken downs proves boxers could match MMA fighters on their ground game too :deal boxing >>> mma


----------



## Lester1583

To call Rocky Rivero a badass would be like calling Whitaker an ok boxer.
An insulting understatement.

Rivero was Da Man.

No head movement.
No footwork.
No fear.

"Slugger" is too sophististicated for a man of his talents.
Rivero's whole technique was of a punching machine champion.
He simply walked towards his opponent and tried to register the highest score possible with every punch.
And he had only two of them in his vast arsenal - a left hook and a right hook.
That was enough for him though.
That was enough for anybody.

Don Fulmer-Rivero was like a mutagen-charged version of Khan-Maidana.
Matador vs Bull.
Only one is unknockoutable and the other is indestructible.

It's one of those fights where you should score it for a fighter who won more rounds but you can't.
Cuz it equals admitting you're a homosexual.
The better boxer won more rounds and survived but by utterly disgracing himself in the last rounds.

So, as with Oscar-Tito, I scored it 10-0 in favour of a man, not a bitch.

As Kovalev once said: "All I see is just a target." @Mexi-Box

Rocky Rivero lived by that code.
Every fighter should be.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> - Kill With Power.


Been trying to solve the mystery of Julian Jackson's chessboxing power.

The stuff McCallum said about him - no telegraphing, speed.

His overall punching technique was really good - whole body behind punches; compact, crisp; explosive but not tense which is important - classic textbook skillset.

His stance and hand positioning slightly reminds me of Rosario and Gomez - the same deceiving rigidness in the upperbody.

Funny how he had no respect at all for McCallum and Norris and yet fought so uncharastically conservative against In Chul Baek.

Moving carefully, boxing strictly from a distance, counterpunching, changing stances, very focused and not veering away from the pre-fight game-plan.

Both times he hurt Baek, it happened while he was fighting out of the southpaw stance.
The second time he checkhooked (!) Baek with a right hook.
Madness.

Speaks volumes of how revered The Korean Slickster was in his prime. @Bill Jincock

The Norris fight I've always liked - it's basically an old timers' rose-tinted glasses dream version of Ali-Louis.
Excellent smooth boxing by Norris and a clinical finish from Jackson.

The right hand that hurt Norris is one of the best right hands ever thrown - precise and perfect.

McCallum's body punching is only rivaled by his own hip punching - was very crafty with it.

The first seconds of the fight are one of the most badass ever - Jackson makes even Tyson look like Rigo.

And fights with no commentary are the best - but that goes without saying.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Chavez - Whitaker was greater.
> 
> Pac - Floyd was bigger.
> 
> Oscar - Mosley flashier.
> 
> But Curry - Starling 2 is the most hardcore of them all.
> 
> The first fight is a rehearsal.
> Both were a bit raw - Curry especially, physically especially.
> 
> But the second one is up there with El Feo - Griffith as far as evenly-matched outstanding technical action is concerned.
> More casual-friendly than the incomprensible jazz-rock of the controversial tetralogy.
> Still less celebrated than the critically acclaimed McCallum-Kalambay rivalry.
> 
> The inside fighting elaborateness hasn't been equaled since then.


McCallum-Kalambay II and Conteh-Saad I are right up there.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> McCallum-Kalambay II and Conteh-Saad I are right up there.


Past-prime irrelevancy.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Past-prime irrelevancy.


Boo! Hiss!


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Baek







Legendary

#DefenceIsForPussies


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Been trying to solve the mystery of Julian Jackson's chessboxing power.
> 
> The stuff McCallum said about him - no telegraphing, speed.
> 
> His overall punching technique was really good - whole body behind punches; compact, crisp; explosive but not tense which is important - classic textbook skillset.
> 
> His stance and hand positioning slightly reminds me of Rosario and Gomez - the same deceiving rigidness in the upperbody.
> 
> Funny how he had no respect at all for McCallum and Norris and yet fought so uncharastically conservative against In Chul Baek.
> 
> Moving carefully, boxing strictly from a distance, counterpunching, changing stances, very focused and not veering away from the pre-fight game-plan.
> 
> Both times he hurt Baek, it happened while he was fighting out of the southpaw stance.
> The second time he checkhooked (!) Baek with a right hook.
> Madness.
> 
> Speaks volumes of how revered The Korean Slickster was in his prime. @Bill Jincock
> 
> The Norris fight I've always liked - it's basically an old timers' rose-tinted glasses dream version of Ali-Louis.
> Excellent smooth boxing by Norris and a clinical finish from Jackson.
> 
> The right hand that hurt Norris is one of the best right hands ever thrown - precise and perfect..


Technically he's usually pretty good but it's the acceleration through the target. Some of his KO's he isn't even really committing too that much. It's where he hits you too, he throws slightly looped overhands that land on your very weak temple. Overhands are harder to land and more powerful recruiting more of your body if thrown properly. Jackson landed his because of his speed and he almost threw them like a hook. Technique aside he was born with those fast twitch muscle fibres that make all that possible.

McClellan looked liked 2 or 3 divisions bigger in there. JJ hurt him but seemed to lose some spark and didn't have the chin, defense or good habits to tuck his chin against such a big fast powerful puncher.

Think Jackson probably sparks Hearns, obviously could get ko'd himself


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Think Jackson probably sparks Hearns, obviously could get ko'd himself


If only Jackson had a bigger name...

Good point on the hook/overhand technique.

Don't like Tito's chances either.
Liked going down too much.

The blown-up fatties like Oscar, Cotto, Mosley, Floyd, etc - they all get drayton'd.

By the way, that punch hurt McCallum - it didn't even land clean - Jackson hurt an iron-chinned McCallum through the guard.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> McClellan looked liked 2 or 3 divisions bigger in there. JJ hurt him but seemed to lose some spark and didn't have the chin, defense or good habits to tuck his chin against such a big fast powerful puncher.


Gerald's reach was bothering him but Jackson wasn't doing that bad though - the fight was pretty even before G-Man pulled off a stoppage outta nowhere.

And for all the flak his chin has gotten over the years - Jackson actually recuperated very quickly when G-Man hurt him in the first round.

Have you read this, by the way?

Pretty interesting stuff:



> The Evolution of ROY JONES JR.
> By â€œIcemanâ€ John Scully.
> 
> The first time I ever HEARD about Roy Jones was at the 1986 National Golden Gloves in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Someone said to me â€œJones is in the Finals at 139. That kid throws A LOT OF punches.â€ The first time I ever SAW Roy Jones was in the 1987 National Golden Gloves in Knoxville, Tennessee when he fought my teammate, Anthony Daley. Roy scored a decision victory over the 6â€™1 New England Champion. I watched him on the first day in Knoxville because he was fighting Daley. Tony was a tall, awkward guy that could fight southpaw and right handed.
> 
> What I remember about the fight was late in the second round Roy caught Tony in the neutral corner with a left hook. Tony got hit and kind of froze in place for a couple seconds. Then he just kind of started falling sideways, going about 8 steps until he landed HARD all the way across the ring in the opposite corner. I had never seen a single punch have that kind of â€˜delayed reactionâ€™ effect on a guy other than when Tyson hit Berbick. Roy beat Tony and everyone else he fought that week. The thing that made me keep watching him was his style, in the ring and out.
> 
> What I remember is that he wore a white shirt with KNOXVILLE printed across the front (Even though he was from Florida, he was in Northern Florida and that part of the state as well as Boxers from surrounding states represented KNOXVILLE in the Nationals.), white trunks and white shoes along with a white headgear. I also remember that every time he fought that week, when the previous fight would end, he would come in the ring and begin loosening up. They hadnâ€™t even read the score cards of the previous bout yet and Roy would already be up in the ring while his opponent would still be outside the ring waiting for the guys that just got done fighting to get out.
> 
> In Amateur Boxing, the rules are very set and one is that you cannot enter the ring until both boxers from the previous bout have left the ring. I remember thinking â€œWho does this guy think he isâ€? Nobody ever said anything to him, though, and he did it every night. Sometimes I think back and I think it gave him a mental edge over his opposition that week. It was like he owned the place and that carried over from his confident attitude. That was OBVIOUS. Roy won 5 bouts that week including a Final round decision over future WBA Middleweight challenger Ray McElroy. I remember going home and telling my Father â€œYou should see this kid from Knoxville. Iâ€™ll be suprised if he doesnâ€™t make the Olympic team next year.â€
> 
> Of course, He DID make the Olympics the next year and set the ball in motion for what would turn out to be one of the great careers in Boxing history. The thing people remember is the Seoul Olympics that year and how BRILLIANT Roy was in those bouts. He defeated Future WBC 168lb. Champion Richie Woodhall early on and, in the Finals, he put on one of the ALL TIME Greatest amateur boxing displays when he thoroughly dominated Park Si-Hun. I remember watching that bout on tape and, even when you watch it NOW, you could see why a person would think that at the time he fought Hun he could have fought many top professionals and defeated them.
> 
> Take the Roy Jones that got robbed against Park Si Hun and put him in the ring right NOW with almost any Junior Middleweight in the WBA, WBC or IBF Top 10 from November 2003 and I will take Roy from those Olympics 90 percent of the time. There are VERY FEW amateur Boxers that I think could compete without pro seasoning against a Top 10 professional. Roy is one of them. I am not even SURE he could. But I am PRETTY sure he could. Nowâ€¦with that all that saidâ€¦here is the thing that may suprise you. Roy Jones Jrâ€™s LUCK as well as his gifts and skills is what got him on the 1988 U.S. Olympic Amateur Boxing Team.
> 
> In 1988 Roy was NOT the favorite 156 pounder of USA Boxing. In most people eyes, the USA Olympic spot at that weight would be filled by either Frank Liles or Tim Littles. Frank and Tim had fought each other several times, had been highly rated for several years and had been chosen by USA Boxing to represent the Country in numerous International dual meets. They were also #1 and #2 in the line-up of USA Boxingâ€™s Athlete representatives. Tim and Frank had both been in numerous International meets and had always fared very well in National events.
> 
> Both were former U.S. Champions. (That right there means more than you might realize. The USA / ABF sponsors the National Championships every year and the winner is always held in very high regard by them in terms of rankings and selection for Duel meets, etc.) Frank had represented the USA in the Pan American Games and both guys had fought against power houses like Russia and Cuba.
> 
> On top of that, at the USA Boxing Championships in early 1988, Roy was not only defeated by Frankie Liles but Frankie gave Roy the only standing 8 count I have ever seen him forced to take. A huge right hook wobbled Roy badly. I remember watching a different fight that was going on at the same time (in the Nationals there are three rings going at the same time) and hearing somebody say â€œWhoa!!!!!â€ I looked over and Roy was teetering sideways towards a neutral corner. (Frank had a wicked right hook. Just watching his 1996 KO of Tim Littles for the WBA title shows you how wicked). Frankie went on to win the whole tournament, beating Tim in the finals.
> 
> Later on in 1988, at the National Golden Gloves, Roy won his first three matches. The first one was a decision over Thomas Tate. He also scored a 3rd. round stoppage over defending National 165 pound Champion and Future NABF Champion Fabian Williams. Those victories set up a fight that someone should have taped for obvious reasons. The semifinal match was Roy Jones taking on Gerald McClellan. You would expect this fight to be very exciting. It was more than that. It was a WAR. One of the greatest examples of speed and power that I have seen in an amateur Boxing match. I remember that Roy was forced back to the ropes often in the fight but that what made the fight so thrilling was the way Roy would FURIOUSLY fight off the ropes with flurries. It was like watching two Olympic athletes fight for the Gold Medal or two guys going for the world professional championship.
> 
> Omaha World-Herald: â€œTwo 1987 Champs, 156 pounder Roy L. Jones of Knoxville and 132 pound Donald Stokes of Louisiana, were eliminated last night.
> 
> Gerald McClellan of Milwaukee crowded Jones most of the first two rounds in pounding out a decision triumph. The 156 pound McClellan was there to slug with Jones from the opening bell, and carried the first round. Jones spent a lot of that time along the ropes.
> 
> Jones showed some movement in a fairly close second and then scored well in the early part of the third. McClellan was stronger at the finish when he again pounded Jones along the ropes and in a corner.â€
> 
> I saw Gerald a month later at Sugar Rayâ€™s training Camp in Maryland and he told me he wouldnâ€™t be able to spar for a while longer because his jaw was still hurting from the fight with Roy.
> 
> (A very interesting thing that came out of the relationship between Roy and Sugar is the fact that Roy Jones Sr. has a video tape of the two of them sparring each other. How much would a collector pay to view that tape?? I visited Pensacola in July of this year (2003) and, as usual, I stopped in to see Big Roy train the amateurs in the gym on his property. I brought up the tape and told him I know for sure that he could get that it on-line and make a good chunk of money selling copies of it. I had a guy that sells video tapes tell me that one of his biggest sellers was the 2 rounds of sparring he has on tape of Roy and I sparring as amateurs.
> 
> Imagine what Roy and Sugar Ray Leonard on tape would go for?? The funny thingâ€¦ what is important to one person is not always important to another. Not only did Big Roy have no interest in parting with the video but I would be willing to guess that it would take him much more than a few minutes of searching his house to even find the thing. I guess after all he has seen his son do, the sparring is in some ways just another sparring session that is on tape somewhere.)
> 
> Next up for Roy was the 88â€² Eastern Trials. Much to my suprise, Roy entered this tournament at 147 pounds. My feeling at the time was that they knew what everybody else knew and that was that Liles and Littles were the two 156 pound favorites of USA Boxing. If Roy could make 147 he would likely have such a big physical advantage over all other 147â€™s that they wouldnâ€™t be able to hold him off. That theory held true in the first bout when Roy walked right through some guy I had never seen before.
> 
> The problem was that making 147 was obviously very hard and on the second day of competition Roy failed to make weight and was disqualified. Normally, at this point, his Olympic Dream would have been all but over. The only chance Roy Jones had at this point of even making the Olympic Trails was as an At-Large entrant. Luckily for him, both Littles and Liles had already qualified by placing first and second in the U.S. Championships in March. In most peoples eyes , the at-large bid would come down to either Roy Jones or Gerald McClellan.
> 
> Now, what you have to understand is, to make the Olympic team you have to first qualify for the US Olympic Trials. There are eight spots for every weight class. However, non-Military guys canâ€™t get in through the Armed Forces tournament. So for a guy like Roy, the following are the possible ways he could have qualified for the final Trials:
> 
> 1- Win the National Golden Gloves
> 2- Win Gold or Silver at the USA Championships
> 3- Win the Eastern US Olympic Trials
> 4- At -Large spot (a Boxer chosen by USA Boxing that didnâ€™t qualify but, they feel, deserves to be included)
> 
> Roy was eliminated in the Golden Gloves, USA Championships and the Eastern Trials. He did not qualify, of course, for the Western Trials or the Armed Forces. So, at this point, his only chance to even make the Trials, let alone the Olympics, was being chosen by USA Boxing as the â€˜At-Largeâ€™ entrant. What that is, basically, is after all the spots are filled for the Olympic Trials every four years the USA Boxing Federation chooses one boxer that did not yet qualify but who they think it was a worthy entrant. In this case I would have to assume that in the closed door meeting it came down to Roy and Gerald McClellan.
> 
> To make a case for Gerald you can say that he did beat Roy just a few months prior in the Golden Gloves in a terrific battle and, in 1987, Gerald won the US Championships by beating USA favorite Tim Littles in the Finals. On the other side of the coin, you have Roy Jones who was a 2-time National Golden Gloves Champion, a Former Junior Olympic National Champion and, most importantly, Roy had the style that would be more likely to succeed in International competition. Both had fought Ray McElroy more than once and Gerald had lost to Ray at least once that I know of while Roy had defeated Ray twice. It should also be mentioned, and I am suprised how many people donâ€™t remember this, that Sugar Ray Leonard was seen as to having the inside track on signing Roy to a Pro contract once Roy was done with his amateur career.
> 
> Ray was also an advisor of sorts to USA Boxing, so there was a good connection there. In the end I think Gerald had a right to feel like he was the one that should have gotten the At Large spot in the Trials but, as far as Amateur Boxing goes, I think it was the right thing to do to put Roy in there. Obviously it turned out that way. In the 88 US Olympic Trials Roy won three bouts including a Final round match with Frank Liles. In the ensuing Olympic Box-Off between the Trials winner (Roy) and USAâ€™s â€˜most noteworthy challengerâ€™ (Liles), Roy again won a decision and it was off to Seoul.
> 
> There is not much point in repeating what you have heard and seen so many times in regard to the Gold Medal match with Park Si Hun. That was about as one-sided as you could imagine. In that particular fight Roy was as brilliant as anybody has been in such a high level Amateur bout. I remember later on, in 1992, Roy telling me that he knew they robbed him before the decision was even announced when he saw a bunch of South Koreans around a judges table smiling and celebrating. Watch the tape. When they are waiting for the decision to be announced and you see Roy put his hands on his waist? That is when he knew what was about to happen to him.
> 
> Up until 1988 I had never thought Roy was a puncher of any kind. The first guy to tell me he was a strong hitter was Lamar Parks when we were in Colorado for the U.S. Championships. Lamar had been in camp with Roy and Sugar Ray Leonard and when Royâ€™s name came up he said â€œMan, Roy can PUNCH.â€ I remember that kind of suprised me. Watching him fight I knew he was an exceptional boxer with great combinations and speed but he didnâ€™t LOOK like a puncher. When I got to Maryland three months later for a pre-Olympic camp held by Sugar Ray I got the chance to spar for several days with Roy, David Sewell and Razz Chapin.
> 
> When I sparred Roy he was a guy that moved a lot but I picked up right away that he wasnâ€™t a guy that was moving because he wanted to get out of the way as much as he was moving so he could check things out and wait for a chance to counter you. On the first day we sparred Roy hit me with a left hook to the body. (Back then some people used to call Lilâ€™ Roy â€œCaptain Hook.â€ I always thought, even as pros, that his overall best punch was his under-used left hook to the body. The same one he took out Glen Wolfe with) Lamar was right. Roy could punch hard. He was a sharp puncher to the head too but, to me, his left hook to the body was his best punch.
> 
> Remember as a Pro when he hit Glenn Wolfe with that vicious left hook to the body in the first round that ended the fight? Well, he had that back as an amateur, too. I was a 165 pounder and Roy was 156 so, before we sparred, I thought of myself as the bigger guy but right away I realized that my extra few pounds, especially in sparring, wouldnâ€™t make a huge difference. Because Roy chose to move a lot and box I knew I had to assume the role of the aggressor because if I didnâ€™t Roy was the type that was content with just boxing from way outside at his own pace. Plus, Sugar Ray was there every day watching the sparring so I wanted to show something.
> 
> You had to always be on your Pâ€™s and Qâ€™s, though, because even when he was in his boxing-mode he was always able to stop on a dime and let loose and try to suprise you with fast and hard flurries that usually included right hand-left hook combinations that were very sharp. The fight in the Olympic finals where he got robbed of the Gold shows that combination at itâ€™s best. One of the best items I have from my Boxing career is a videotape of Roy and I sparring from that week. If you do a google.com search on-line you can definitely find someone that has a copy. Most of the rounds Roy and I boxed were very similar.
> 
> I would keep my hands up real high and go to him, trying to duck under punches and come in at different angles. Roy would box and try to set me up for hard punches from the outside. Sometimes fighters that box with each other know, without a spoken word, when to pick it up. At the end of most of the rounds we sparred, in the last 30 seconds, the pace gradually picked up until it was back and forth banging. Roy spent a lot of time on the ropes back then, just as he had against Gerald McClellan in their fight a month earlier. That was FUN. Watch the tape sometime. Real good action. I would throw hard shots to the head and body, especially the body, while Roy loaded up with nice flurries of punches. I would throw. He would throw. Back and forth. It was FUN. I watch the videotape even now and I love to see it, all the flurries at the end of the rounds. His punches were hard but that worked good because it made me tougher.
> 
> I knew that if he hit me and the punches were hard and I stayed away or backed up he would sense it and take advantage of that. So I made up my mind that no matter how hard he threw I needed to bite down and fight back hard to keep him from getting too comfortable. As you saw when he fought Park Si-Hun a couple months later, when he got comfortable, it was target practice for him. I had seen him able to do that in other bouts and I realized that I couldnâ€™t just sit and wait for him. The sparring went well and I felt like we definitely helped each other get ready for the upcoming Trials.
> 
> Going into the Trials that were coming up in a few weeks, I felt like Roy was the most talented guy at 156 pounds but he would have to go through equally stiff competition in Tim Littles and Frank Liles. He won the Trials at 156 pounds with a Final round decision over â€˜Fabulousâ€™ Frankie Liles (Liles had earlier eliminated Tim Littles by decision). In the Box-Off a couple weeks later, Roy again beat Frankie to secure his spot on the 1988 U.S. Olympic Team. The rest, as they say, Is History.
> 
> After the Olympics were over it was time for everyone to make their pitch to Roy and his Dad to see who would end up as his Promoter. I have heard that Emmanuel Steward, Don King and all the others made their play. I myself, along with most of the guys that came up with Roy in the amateurs, assumed he was going to sign with Sugar Ray Leonard. I mean, I can remember at the 88â€² Nationals when Ray was on the local TV station in Colorado Springs talking about what a great prospect Roy was and when I was in camp with them it was pretty clear that Ray had the inside track on signing him up. Whatever happened, it ended up that Roy went into the game under the guidance of his Dad with the help of Pensacola Attorneyâ€™s Stanley and Fred Levin.
> 
> Besides a stellar amateur career and a lifetime of diligent training, by the time he turned pro, Roy had already sparred with many professional boxers in the gyms including NABF Champion Ronnie Esset, IBF Champion Lindell Holmes and all-time great Sugar Ray Leonard. His pedigree was much stronger than that of the average kid about to embark on a professional career.
> 
> After a quick local pro debut in Pensacola Roy was quickly showcased in only his second pro fight in an EIGHT ROUNDER on NBC against a solid, if smaller, boxer from New York named Stephon Johnson. Johnson had a record of 10-2 at the time they fought and would later go on to win the USBA welterweight title. Against Roy though he was seriously overmatched. I have yet to see ANY amateur turn professional and, in only their second fight, against that quality of opposition look THAT good. Not Breland. Not Jermaine Taylor. Jeff Lacy. None of them. Get a tape of it sometime.
> 
> I thought Roy looked good enough and seasoned enough to fight almost any 154 pounder in the World. In fact, there was even talk that within his first year as a Pro he would go on to face one of the reigning World Champions at the time. His next fight was again on NBC and the comp level was raised even higher as Roy matched up with 16-1 Ron Amundsen out of Chicago. Amundsen had been a Top 10 International level amateur for the USA and his only loss as a Professional at the time was a TEN round decision to future WBC Champion Davey Hilton. Again, Roy looked spectacular in winning every round against his more experienced opponent, (Amundsen would also go on to win a USBA Championship in the near future) stopping him in the seventh round.
> 
> Here he was with only 3 professional bouts under his belt and he had already beaten two very solid opponents. People everywhere wanted to see him NOW against the very best. They donâ€™t have those type expectations NOW out of Taylor, Lacy, Rocky Juarez or any of the other Olympians. But back in 1989 Roy Jones, because he looked so good against his first three opponents, was expected to fight the best or be ridiculed. His Dad, for better or worse, pulled him off-TV and had him fighting to gain experience back in Pensacola.
> 
> Promoters and Boxing people all over the World claimed it was career suicide. The one thing that really stands out from that period was something his Dad said. To me, it made sense. â€œLilâ€™ Roy could go ahead and win the Junior middleweight title right now. I know this. But, see, I donâ€™t want him to just win it. I want him to win it and keep it for a long time. Thatâ€™s a lot to ask of a 19 year old boy that grew up on a farm. Riddick and Mercer and these other boys are older and have been around more. Roy is a farm boy. He needs a little more time to grow enough to be able to handle that kind of pressure. You donâ€™t just want to win the title. You want to be seasoned enough and wise enough to keep it.â€
> 
> To me those were the words of a very wise man that was able to pull back and look at the big picture. The whole picture. Obviously he wasnâ€™t having his vision clouded by dollar signs. So much has been written and discussed about how Roy eventually broke away from his Dad and there is no reason to go into it again here. Everybody knows the story. I can only say that I know for a fact that Roy Jones, Jr. wouldnâ€™t be where he is today if it wasnâ€™t for his Dad and his Dadâ€™s training and wisdom. People said Roy wouldnâ€™t make it with his Dad in charge and after he broke away they said he wouldnâ€™t make it without signing his life away to the biggest promoters in the game.
> 
> In 1994 I went to Las Vegas for Royâ€™s IBF title fight with James Lights Out Toney. After the fight, I went out with a group of guys including my friend Phil Rizzuto from back in Connecticut and my friend from Michigan that not only trained in the same gym with James but was a good fighter in his own right named Tarik â€˜The Arabian Princeâ€™ Salmaci. The next morning we were still up, hanging around the lobby of the Casino when at about 6:30am Roy came through the doors of the hotel and he stopped and talked for a few minutes on his way to the elevator.
> 
> All we talked about was the fight that ended about seven hours earlier. He seemed kind of tired and drained looking and sweaty so I didnâ€™t hold him up for too long. It never occurred to me that he was up for any reason in particular other than he just hadnâ€™t winded down from the fight yet. A few months later I read in a magazine about a post fight ritual he had that I never knew about and it dawned on me then what was going on that morning: He had just finished his early morning ROADWORK when I saw him in the hotel the morning after he beat James Toney.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Been trying to solve the mystery of Julian Jackson's chessboxing power.
> 
> The stuff McCallum said about him - no telegraphing, speed.
> 
> His overall punching technique was really good - whole body behind punches; compact, crisp; explosive but not tense which is important - classic textbook skillset.
> 
> His stance and hand positioning slightly reminds me of Rosario and Gomez - the same deceiving rigidness in the upperbody.
> 
> Funny how he had no respect at all for McCallum and Norris and yet fought so uncharastically conservative against In Chul Baek.
> 
> Moving carefully, boxing strictly from a distance, counterpunching, changing stances, very focused and not veering away from the pre-fight game-plan.
> 
> Both times he hurt Baek, it happened while he was fighting out of the southpaw stance.
> The second time he checkhooked (!) Baek with a right hook.
> Madness.
> 
> Speaks volumes of how revered The Korean Slickster was in his prime. @Bill Jincock
> 
> The Norris fight I've always liked - it's basically an old timers' rose-tinted glasses dream version of Ali-Louis.
> Excellent smooth boxing by Norris and a clinical finish from Jackson.
> 
> The right hand that hurt Norris is one of the best right hands ever thrown - precise and perfect.
> 
> McCallum's body punching is only rivaled by his own hip punching - was very crafty with it.
> 
> The first seconds of the fight are one of the most badass ever - Jackson makes even Tyson look like Rigo.
> 
> And fights with no commentary are the best - but that goes without saying.


Jackson may have been the most effortless puncher from the waist up I've seen. Him or Olivares. But Jackson planted so hard in shocked he could move as well as did. Really dig in there.


Lester1583 said:


> Gans the best filmed outdated fighter?
> 
> Plenty of questionable stuff - chin up in the air a la Valero, straight back, lack of head movement, etc.
> 
> But looks like a deadly counterpuncher/ring general with impeccable timing.
> 
> Still more modern than Froch though.
> 
> But then again Gans had never ko'd a prime gingerbread boy in front of 80.000 screaming fans.
> 
> So there's that.


Gans and Langford were the two best guys pre 1920. Just fascinating to watch. Plus Gans introduced bringing home the bacon into the lexicon. I really wish we had footage of Joe Walcott. Didn't he hold both guys to a draw. What a monster. A demon you might say.


----------



## LittleRed

Flea Man said:


> McCallum-Kalambay II and Conteh-Saad I are right up there.


If you see this how do feel about McGoat.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> A demon you might say.


Nice to see you again, LR.

Strangely enough your disappearance coincided with @Flea Man's self-imposed exile from boxing.


----------



## Flea Man

:lol:


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Nice to see you again, LR.
> 
> Strangely enough your disappearance coincided with @Flea Man's self-imposed exile from boxing.


That's crazy talk. I love Ricardo Lopez too much to be Flea. Also I acknowledge the greatness of Khaosai.

But that gif is everything. Why that man doesn't hasn't egot'ed is beyond me.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> - Double jab, baby.


Jackson, Toney, McGirt and Jones.

Leonard was favouring Norris to beat them all in 1992.

Out of these four McGirt was his pick for the guy to most likely to beat Norris.


----------



## Lester1583

Malinga's sneaky short right hand was almost as good as Lindell's double left hook.

Still good enough to expose british boxing as a bunch of flaccid cocked pornstars.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Malinga's sneaky short right hand was almost as good as Lindell's double left hook.
> 
> Still good enough to expose british boxing as a bunch of flaccid cocked pornstars.


Park beating Holmes = #1 ATG super middle.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Park = #1 ATG super middle.


The only problem is Park didn't truly beat Lindell.

The fight could've easily gone either way.
The epic 15th round comeback sealed the deal for the Glassmaster.

Lindell was a good fighter technically - from the waist up.
Variety of punches, solid jab despite usually being a shorter fighter, that double left hook, versatile, knew how to defent himself.

Not the most physically gifted and was clearly a natural middle fighting bigger guys.
Only won his title at the end of his career, already being on the decline.

Which is why Chong-Pal's win over him is legendary - Lindell was still more or less a prime fighter back then.
Alas, he didn't know that Park was a walking plague - everyone he touched turned into outta shape sloth.
As soon as Park hit Holmes with his patented counter shithook, Lindell lost all of his stamina and precision.

Prime fit Chong-Pal rematching the undefeated puncher Kyung-Min Ra (13-0(13 KO's) in a fierce battle of middleweight prospects:




The Golden Years of Boxing.

If only Hagler was never born...


----------



## Lester1583

The first knockdown of Curry-Stafford.

The fastest punch ever _(barely)_ caught on camera?


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> The only problem is Park didn't truly beat Lindell.
> 
> The fight could've easily gone either way.
> The epic 15th round comeback sealed the deal for the Glassmaster.
> 
> Lindell was a good fighter technically - from the waist up.
> Variety of punches, solid jab despite usually being a shorter fighter, that double left hook, versatile, knew how to defent himself.
> 
> Not the most physically gifted and was clearly a natural middle fighting bigger guys.
> Only won his title at the end of his career, already being on the decline.
> 
> Which is why Chong-Pal's win over him is legendary - Lindell was still more or less a prime fighter back then.
> Alas, he didn't know that Park was a walking plague - everyone he touched turned into outta shape sloth.
> As soon as Park hit Holmes with his patented counter shithook, Lindell lost all of his stamina and precision.
> 
> Prime fit Chong-Pal rematching the undefeated puncher Kyung-Min Ra (13-0(13 KO's) in a fierce battle of middleweight prospects:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Golden Years of Boxing.
> 
> If only Hagler was never born...


Is the first fight on there? It's available, but I haven't got it.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Is the first fight on there? It's available, but I haven't got it.


It's available but I haven't seen it.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> It's available but I haven't seen it.


I'm looking to get a fair bit of footage of Rigo's Kazakh daddy, so will see if I can get this too.


----------



## dyna

If Park had not been beaten by Obelmejias.
How likely would a Hagler-Park fight have been?


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> If Park had not been beaten by Obelmejias.
> How likely would a Hagler-Park fight have been?


Even more unlikely.


----------



## Flea Man

dyna said:


> If Park had not been beaten by Obelmejias.
> How likely would a Hagler-Park fight have been?


I think that was basically a 'who nex' fight.

So pretty likely IMO


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> Gerald's reach was bothering him but Jackson wasn't doing that bad though - the fight was pretty even before G-Man pulled off a stoppage outta nowhere.
> 
> And for all the flak his chin has gotten over the years - Jackson actually recuperated very quickly when G-Man hurt him in the first round.
> 
> Have you read this, by the way?
> 
> Pretty interesting stuff:


Nice article.
High praise about the 154 title.The division wasn't too shabby in 89 and I think JJ,Norris and JDJ were in the top 5.


----------



## PityTheFool

Just looked at the Ring Top 5 in 89.

1.Julian Jackson
2.John Mugabi (why did I not get that first time?)
3.Gianfranco Rosi
4.John David Jackson
5.Terry Norris


So,does a young Roy beat them right after turning over?


----------



## Mr. Brain

Bill Jincock said:


> Gradovich landed some heavy rights there that the commentators totally missed.Selby took them well though.





Bill Jincock said:


> Gradovich got schooled in that round.Looks like he's slowing a bit and starting to feel the punches too.maybe just taking a breather, but that looked a worrying round for him.





Bill Jincock said:


> fuck, just realised i'm in the wrong thread:rofl


Don't worry, twas the best three comments in the entire thread.


----------



## dyna

This fight certainly belongs here.
Best true war of Hearn's career, Hagler-Hearns doesn't compare.
Not even a hyperbole, a fight so good that it could have only happened at cruiserweight.
Hearns goes down, Delgado goes down. Both men almost out of it on more than a dozen of occasions.

Edit:Better quality, but sound only in the right ear


----------



## Lester1583

PityTheFool said:


> Just looked at the Ring Top 5 in 89.
> 
> 1.Julian Jackson
> 2.John Mugabi (why did I not get that first time?)
> 3.Gianfranco Rosi
> 4.John David Jackson
> 5.Terry Norris
> So,does a young Roy beat them right after turning over?












89 is probably a bit too early for Jones.

He progressed very quickly but still.

Debut - he was an amateur.
2nd fight - half-amateur/half-pro.
3rd fight - signs of the real Jones.

Putting this Jones (no matter how talented he was), a near amateur, against an established champion would've been a big gamble a la Loma's first title challenge.
Would've required a good stylistic match-up most likely.

On a side note, Jones is a living proof that punchers aren't necessarily born.
As Scully confirmed, Jones wasn't a puncher in the amateurs.
And he wasn't a puncher early in his career (first 3 or 4 fights).
But the man developed himself into one of the most lethal punchers.
Through technique and training.

Don't remember the exact fight, to be honest - been years since I watched early Jones - but somewhere around late 90/early 91 is when he matured enough to win his first title.

Still would've been risky versus Norris or Jackson.
Risky but not unwinnable.
But Rosi/JDJ/that level - he was already ready to dethrone them.

The Lost Years in Pensacola footage is simply mesmerizing, by the way.
All those hand camera recorded fights with no-commentary - just Jones and his craft.
Like listening to Led Zep's Stairway to Heaven outtakes.
From rough promising demos to eternal greatness.

There was a fight in which Jones side stepped so quickly that the referee lost him.
Didn't even look real.

@Powerpuncher


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> 89 is probably a bit too early for Jones.
> 
> He progressed very quickly but still.
> 
> Debut - he was an amateur.
> 2nd fight - half-amateur/half-pro.
> 3rd fight - signs of the real Jones.
> 
> Putting this Jones (no matter how talented he was), a near amateur, against an established champion would've been a big gamble a la Loma's first title challenge.
> Would've required a good stylistic match-up most likely.
> 
> On a side note, Jones is a living proof that punchers aren't necessarily born.
> As Scully confirmed, Jones wasn't a puncher in the amateurs.
> And he wasn't a puncher early in his career (first 3 or 4 fights).
> But the man developed himself into one of the most lethal punchers.
> Through technique and training.
> 
> Don't remember the exact fight, to be honest - been years since I watched early Jones - but somewhere around late 90/early 91 is when he matured enough to win his first title.
> 
> Still would've been risky versus Norris or Jackson.
> Risky but not unwinnable.
> But Rosi/JDJ/that level - he was already ready to dethrone them.
> 
> The Lost Years in Pensacola footage is simply mesmerizing, by the way.
> All those hand camera recorded fights with no-commentary - just Jones and his craft.
> Like listening to Led Zep's Stairway to Heaven outtakes.
> From rough promising demos to eternal greatness.
> 
> There was a fight in which Jones side stepped so quickly that the referee lost him.
> Didn't even look real.
> 
> @Powerpuncher


Is there a link Lester? Can't seem to find them online.(Lost years)


----------



## Lester1583

PityTheFool said:


> Is there a link Lester? Can't seem to find them online.(Lost years)


By Lost Years I meant Jones' non-televised fights - those that took place between 89-92.

He had often been referred to as a wasted talent back then.

His entire career, except one fight, is readily available.


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> By Lost Years I meant Jones' non-televised fights - those that took place between 89-92.
> 
> He had often been referred to as a wasted talent back then.
> 
> His entire career, except one fight, is readily available.


Aw right.I didn't look over Scully's post again but remember him talking about tapes so thought it might be related.


----------



## Lester1583

Time for a new avatar, @bballchump11?


----------



## dyna

Late 90s Tyson - Tua 

That would have been a spectacle.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Time for a new avatar, @bballchump11?


The worst post you've ever done.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Late 90s Tyson - Tua
> That would have been a spectacle.


Tyson-Tua is the ultimate proof that there's no god.



Flea Man said:


> The worst post you've ever done.


Racist.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> This fight certainly belongs here.
> Best true war of Hearn's career, Hagler-Hearns doesn't compare.
> Not even a hyperbole, a fight so good that it could have only happened at cruiserweight.


Delgado was a complete all-around fighting machine.
Him kicking Toney was a sign of things to come for James.
A glimpse into the future of MMA.

Hearns was a true weight-jumper.
Great at moving up/down.

Probably could've snatched a cruiserweight title from a lesser champ in the early 90's.

Wild fight.
Even the camera got punched.
Only at cruiserweight.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> 89 is probably a bit too early for Jones.
> 
> He progressed very quickly but still.
> 
> Debut - he was an amateur.
> 2nd fight - half-amateur/half-pro.
> 3rd fight - signs of the real Jones.
> 
> Putting this Jones (no matter how talented he was), a near amateur, against an established champion would've been a big gamble a la Loma's first title challenge.
> Would've required a good stylistic match-up most likely.
> 
> On a side note, Jones is a living proof that punchers aren't necessarily born.
> As Scully confirmed, Jones wasn't a puncher in the amateurs.
> And he wasn't a puncher early in his career (first 3 or 4 fights).
> But the man developed himself into one of the most lethal punchers.
> Through technique and training.
> 
> Don't remember the exact fight, to be honest - been years since I watched early Jones - but somewhere around late 90/early 91 is when he matured enough to win his first title.
> 
> Still would've been risky versus Norris or Jackson.
> Risky but not unwinnable.
> But Rosi/JDJ/that level - he was already ready to dethrone them.
> 
> The Lost Years in Pensacola footage is simply mesmerizing, by the way.
> All those hand camera recorded fights with no-commentary - just Jones and his craft.
> Like listening to Led Zep's Stairway to Heaven outtakes.
> From rough promising demos to eternal greatness.
> 
> There was a fight in which Jones side stepped so quickly that the referee lost him.
> Didn't even look real.
> 
> @Powerpuncher


Yea Jones started out far more conventionally textbook with a highguard and everything coming off the jab. Some think he never had the skill to box in this way, it was all athleticism apparently. There were less risks taken in his boxing and matchmaking. Still there was something more pleasing in his style back then in a way. Before he began to rely on getting the job done with his best punches. His jab was much better too.

He was moved very slowly by his dad and while I'm hesitant to pick someone in their first 5 fights or so, you probably couldn't make a better pick. Someone who was was one of the best ever amateurs who got over Lindel Holmes in sparring. The only risks are Jackson and Norris and both are allot smaller but both criminally underrated. It depends if you think Jones issues with concussion came after the Tarver bouts or they were always an issue. If you think the latter then both, especially Jackson is a big thread but he has to hit Roy clean, which is easier said than done.

Jones career could have been better in a few ways. The first would of been moving him along faster, which could of easily have been done, his debut was around the time of Toney's debut and Jones certainly wasn't behind Toney in development from the offset. The second would be exposing him to the boxers of Don King, he'd have to sign with King but so many fights were lost that he supposedly ducked because he tried to manage his career away from the sharks. Finally it'd be retiring rich. None of those happened and it's created a sad story.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> Yea Jones started out far more conventionally textbook with a highguard and everything coming off the jab. Some think he never had the skill to box in this way, it was all athleticism apparently.


Rarely do I see this mentioned.

It's mostly speed and that's all, according to most.

While there were so many interesting things he did in his prime, aside from the eye-catching powerpunching.
Like the overlooked inside fighting ability or economical footwork.



Powerpuncher said:


> Still there was something more pleasing in his style back then in a way. Before he began to rely on getting the job done with his best punches. His jab was much better too.


Perfection is unreachable.

Don't know if he would've benefitted from fighting more orthodox though.

The Ruiz fight was his back-to-basics performance - well, sort of - the jab came back from the grave.



Powerpuncher said:


> I'm hesitant to pick someone in their first 5 fights or so, you probably couldn't make a better pick.


I remember thinking about that some time ago.
Who was the best looking green fighter.

With outstanding talents like Whitaker or Leonard it's more about ring generalship/understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses that they were lacking.
Skill-wise they were already advanced enough to beat plenty of champions.

Jones is no exception.

They all could've won their titles earlier probably.
But in hard competitive fights most likely - maybe after a controversial loss.

Of the lesser fighters Kostya looked like he was ready to win a title in his debut.

Asian fighters are a different topic.



Powerpuncher said:


> It depends if you think Jones issues with concussion came after the Tarver bouts or they were always an issue.


Nah, don't think Jones was chinny in the true sense of that word.

He rarely was caught with huge punches but he never showed that Khan/Norris/Hide fragility.

Chin, like everything else, deteriorates though.



Powerpuncher said:


> The second would be exposing him to the boxers of Don King, he'd have to sign with King but so many fights were lost that he supposedly ducked because he tried to manage his career away from the sharks.


Independent.

Way too independent.


----------



## Lester1583

Terrible Terry's fights are certified sex toys.

They give pleasure all the time.


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Who was the best looking green fighter.


Speaking of.

Lamar Parks' first fight:





Slaps his punches and a bit too open (always has been) but otherwise a promising debut.


----------



## Lester1583

LA Times, 1991:



> Toney is an awkward-looking, unorthodox brawler who throws punches from unconventional angles


----------



## Drew101

Just gonna leave this here, since this is about all things legendary. Doesn't get much more legendary than this.


----------



## Lester1583

- Don't duck me, son.
- I won't.









- You ducked me, son.
- I did.


----------



## Lester1583

Drew101 said:


> [video=youtube;yTgoJAykmXE]Just gonna leave this here, since this is legendary.


Featherfisters cannot be considered legendary under no circumstances.

And to add insult to injury you've posted a full distance fight.

I understand that it's not your fault, you weren't aware of what is allowed in this sacred thread or not, but I've already reported you to the mods, police and Oprah.

Told them that you're a racist too.
Just in case.

No hard feelings.

Anyway.

Most people only saw the explosive finish of this fight.

But the fight itself has all the ingredients of legendness:

Punching powah, mutual knockdowns, low blows_ (intentional, of course)_, a fighter getting knocked out of the ring, inept referee, blind gay commentator and the unforgettable KO - it's all there.

Simon Brown - Vincent Pettway:


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Simon Brown - Vincent Pettway


An avoidable loss for Brown I'd say.

Pettway had power and was dangerous with occasional sharp counters.
Could box and move but nothing special.
KO'd Rosi though - The W.Klitchko of light middles as some peruvians refer to him.

Brown abandoning his early skilled boxer-puncher approach backfired on him hard on that night.


----------



## Flea Man

:rofl Fucks sake Lester.

In other news I am going to enrol on a Russian language course in the latter half of 2016.

That way I might be able to understand _'Stalker'._


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> That way I might be able to understand _'Stalker'._


That way you will hate it.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> That way you will hate it.


Okay, _comprehend it slightly more than I did the first two times._

Better?


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Okay, _comprehend it slightly more than I did the first two times._
> 
> Better?


Even worse.

Who the hell even watches this french crap 3 times instead of spending quality time with your significant other?

No wonder your husband hates you.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Even worse.
> 
> Who the hell even watches this french crap 3 times instead of spending quality time with your significant other?
> 
> No wonder your husband hates you.


Stop being a shitehawk. Be proud your nation gave birth to such a visionary.

Of course I am talking about Sergei Kobozev, not Tarkovsky.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> shitehawk.


There you go again, insulting mexicans.

Don't ever come visiting my hometown, Culiacan - you're gonna get strangled with Oscar's stockings.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> There you go again, insulting mexicans.
> 
> Don't ever come visiting my hometown, Culiacan - you're gonna get strangled with Oscar's stockings.


If you ever come to Bangkok I'll get Samart to wipe the floor with you in karaoke.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Samart karaoke


Now we're talking business.

Sick beats by Samart.


----------



## Lester1583

Pre-title Galindez:





That move at 0:58 - retreat to the ropes + loose relaxed version of the philly shell - so typical of the great Argentinians - Locche, Galindez, Monzon, etc.

Galindez's mustache were obviously influenced by the classic kung-fu movies.


----------



## Lester1583

Locche - Peppermint is the worst robbery I have ever seen in my life.

No wonder El Intocable quit boxing in disgust after this fight.


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> There you go again, insulting mexicans.
> 
> Don't ever come visiting my hometown, Culiacan - you're gonna get strangled with Oscar's stockings.


If I come,can we have dinner with Chapo? I'm sure he'll be home soon.


----------



## Lester1583

PityTheFool said:


> If I come,can we have dinner with Chapo?


You can't come.

No peas and Tapia fans allowed in Culiacan.


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> You can't come.
> 
> No peas and Tapia fans allowed in Culiacan.


I'll bet Arturo "Fame" Gatti fans are welcomed like victorious soldiers returning from war?


----------



## Lester1583

PityTheFool said:


> I'll bet Arturo "Fame" Gatti fans are welcomed like victorious soldiers returning from war?


Gatti fans are welcomed everywhere.

You however are not a soldier of the Gatti Army.

You're an evil cook from the Froch squad.


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> Gatti fans are welcomed everywhere.
> 
> You however are not a soldier of the Gatti Army.
> 
> You're an evil cook from the Froch squad.


Yeah I know.It's the Native American in me.
Tell me this though;How are HOFs like the NFL's based on achievement and general excellence but we can call Canastota the Hall of "Fame" so literally?


----------



## Lester1583

PityTheFool said:


> Tell me this though;How are HOFs like the NFL's based on achievement and general excellence but we can call Canastota the Hall of "Fame" so literally?


Because it's boxing.

Boxing is life.

Life is not fair.


----------



## dyna

PityTheFool said:


> Yeah I know.It's the Native American in me.
> Tell me this though;How are HOFs like the NFL's based on achievement and general excellence but we can call Canastota the Hall of "Fame" so literally?


Isn't fame in the NFL primarily based on your achievements and excellence?
Can a bad player in the NFL ever become famous without doing some crazy stuff outside the game?

In boxing you don't need to be excellent, matchmaking can be kind and people love wars and drama more than highly efficient jab and grab styles.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> - Only god can judge me, only god.


Judah's father in action:





Interesting article on Yoel and the Judah family:



> The Patriarch and the Fighting Sons.
> 
> Yoel Judah walks slowly, talks fast. It is a disarming contradiction, to watch the casual way he saunters into a room, usually a son or two in tow, and to hear his words tripping and tumbling over each other, his voice all low and lyrical.
> 
> Judah ambled into Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn recently to work out with his boxing star of a son, Zabdiel Judah. They were dressed alike, stylish in designer T-shirts and billowing jeans. Jumpy teenagers and former fighters shook Zab's hand or slapped his back, but they huddled with Yoel. Zab is the newly crowned junior-welterweight champion of the International Boxing Federation, a 22-year-old who will defend his title for the first time on Saturday, but his father is the one with all the answers.
> 
> As Zab busied himself with sparring, his father stood ringside, arms draped over the ropes. Yoel never took his eyes off his son in the ring, but he still managed to conduct three or four simultaneous conversations with those gathered around him. Occasionally, he barked encouragement.
> 
> ''Good, there you go,'' Yoel said. ''Back up! Go in! Good.''
> 
> Yoel is a seventh-degree black belt and a former world-champion kick boxer, but more important, he is the undisputed ruler of Team Judah, a stable of seven fighting sons who range in age from 8 to 24. They call him Abba, Hebrew for father. They, like many large families, are insular -- you see the fun and wish you could join but cannot. Yet there is something eerie about this family of fighters and its patriarch.
> 
> ''Well, you know, I got an aura around me,'' Yoel said after the workout.
> 
> The aura's name is Order. Yoel Judah's life has always been about order and violence and scratching out an identity within the two. Like the yin-yang philosophy he loves so well, order and violence are his pendulum. Those forces govern every aspect of his life as well as the lives of his sons, whom he has reared almost single-handedly.
> 
> Yoel, who is in his early 40's, once kept his distance as a father and lost the custody of his children. He worked feverishly to reclaim them, though, and has since made them the center of his world. He has full custody of all seven sons, although their mother still sees them occasionally.
> 
> Yoel's is a world without question: he gives the rules, and the boys follow. The family is coiled in discipline, and yet it seems to thrive in the environment. The boys idolize their father. They are polite, diligent, soft spoken and eager to please. None have been lost to the prison system or the streets of Brooklyn. And none expect anything less than to succeed.
> 
> Zab knocked out Jan Bergman (38-3) in the fourth round on Feb. 12 to claim the I.B.F. junior-welterweight title at Mohegan Sun Casino in Uncasville, Conn. He will defend his title on Saturday against Jason Rowland (21-1) in Glasgow, on the Mike Tyson-Lou Savarese undercard.
> 
> Zab has 23 professional victories, 18 by knockout, and no losses, and boxing writers have long called him ''Pernell Whitaker with power.''
> 
> Zab's manager of four years, Shelly Finkel, said the differences between the two left-handers are almost too subtle to detect. ''I've managed Pernell for 17 years,'' Finkel said, ''and the only difference is that Zab's punch is better.''
> 
> Within New York boxing circles, he was considered championship material years ago. ''I don't get excited too much about any fighter,'' said Joe Guzman, a boxing historian, ''but Zab Judah is the best fighter out there, maybe with the exception of Roy Jones. He is a kid who's going to make $50 million, and you see a fighter like that once every 10 years.''
> 
> Godliness and the Crossbar
> 
> Yoel Judah gave his sons biblical names: Ariel, Daniel, Zabdiel, Joseph, Josiah, Michael and Yoel Jr. Zab's namesake is found in I Chronicles 27 of the Old Testament, a soldier in charge of King David's first army division of 24,000 men. The man's life is encapsulated in one sentence about his occupation and his ancestry.
> 
> ''He was a leader of an army, and his father was Jashobeam,'' Zab said. ''It's deep.''
> 
> In Jewish genealogies, the story of the son always begins with the father. It grounds him, explains him. And it is the same with the Judah family. At 13, Yoel embraced a century-old hybrid of Christianity, Judaism and black nationalism, and today he and his sons call themselves Israelites, or Black Jews. The movement is informal and varied, and some branches of the Israelites have even been accepted by Reform Judaism. The Judahs do not belong to a formal congregation. Instead, they huddle in their East Flatbush home in the evenings or on weekends to hear Yoel tell them about the men of God. King Solomon is a favorite.
> 
> ''Godliness means you got laws that govern you, and the laws are good,'' Yoel said. ''If you don't fear God and you don't have any guidance, I'm going to have to watch you because you might do anything. You're an outlaw. I got a lot of friends like that, and now they're in the Crossbar Hotel.''
> 
> As a child, Yoel craved the guidance of his father, James Judah, but James, a decorated Korean War veteran and club fighter, instilled in his son little beyond a reverence for self-discipline and an ability to fight. James divorced Yoel's mother, Viola, when Yoel was 12, and after that he was gone.
> 
> In need of a father figure, Yoel and his older brother, James, found a group of retired fighters who hung out at the Police Athletic League in Brownsville. They introduced the boys to karate, and Yoel said he immediately fell in love with the structure and science of the sport. Within the long workouts and the Zen mind-set, he found order.
> 
> ''I was a really crazy martial artist,'' he said, ''doing knuckle push-ups and 300 sit-ups and running from Brooklyn to Queens and all that stuff.''
> 
> He became a seventh-degree black belt, and was a world champion kick boxer with 11 title defenses while also dabbling as a professional boxer, with a 5-0 record. He befriended neighborhood boxers like Mark Breland and a young Mike Tyson. But even after he had children of his own, Yoel was not aware that all the laurels came with a price. The realization came after he had been away at a fight sometime in the early 1980's. At the time, he was living with the mother of his children, Yamima, whom he never married.
> 
> ''I was fighting then, and I went away to Florida to a fight, and she was messing with the drugs here,'' he said, his voice getting husky with emotion. ''She got messed up, and basically, she left them for two days in the house. So the authorities came in and snatched them. I come home, and my whole family is just gone.''
> 
> The children were placed in foster care, and for the next year and a half, Yoel was allowed to see them only for an hour on Fridays. He got jobs digging ditches and working on construction sites and he never missed an appointment to see his children.
> 
> ''That's one of those things, man, in my life where I could have really flipped out, but I kept my composure,'' he said. ''The judges later awarded me full custody, but at the time, the things I had wasn't up to their standards. I had to have this and that, make X amount a year, so I said: 'O.K., that's what I have to do? I'll do it,' and it took me about a year to put it all together.
> 
> ''I went after it like a madman -- got me a good job, bigger crib, car, money in the bank, prove myself clean, everything. And once I had them back, yo, I wasn't ever going to lose them again. Had to hold tight.''
> 
> Chores and a List of Don'ts
> 
> Years later, he still holds tight. Everyone who knows the Judahs has heard about the worksheet, a rotating list of chores Yoel keeps posted in the kitchen. Each evening after coming home from the gym, the boys are expected to mop the floors, put out the garbage, do the dishes and clean the basement. Zab is no exception, even though he now has his own place in Rosedale, Queens. When he comes home for dinner or a visit, which is almost daily, he has to pitch in. Yoel said the chores keep Zab humble and hungry.
> 
> ''Yoel runs a tight house,'' Yoel's brother, James, said, ''and it's immaculate.''
> 
> Rules extend beyond housework. Michael, 16, said the don'ts are too many to recall. Don't break stuff. Don't do drugs. Don't go to bed late. Don't forget your chores. Don't go anywhere without telling Yoel. Don't hang out on the streets. (Punishments run anywhere from being grounded for a month to doing 100 knuckle push-ups on the concrete driveway.)
> 
> ''Sometimes he gets this look on his face, this mean look,'' Michael said with a laugh, ''and you know it's time to get serious.''
> 
> Fighting was one area Yoel always took seriously. Before and after he retired from kick boxing in 1991, he had the children tag along when he went to the gym. They lined up, ringside, and watched his moves and learned to fear their father almost as much as they loved him.
> 
> ''You watch him flip around dudes his size and then look at our size, and we'd be like, 'Hold up, if he can do them like that, what could he do to us?' '' Zab said. ''So pretty much, we never did too much.''
> 
> Not only did the karate and boxing lessons keep his sons in a protective gym most of the afternoon, Yoel hoped the training would also give them the confidence to walk away from fights. During the early years, they lived in Bedford-Stuyvesant, so he knew they would be tested.
> 
> ''When you know how to fight, you don't easily jump into a fight,'' he said. ''Boxing will let you walk down a street at 1 o'clock in the morning, not because you're cocky, but because you're confident. At the same time, boxing gives you wisdom. You won't be a fool.''
> 
> But an undercurrent of anger courses through a contact sport like boxing. No matter how much you study the art and the grace of boxing, its execution will inevitably end in pain. That is the point: to leave the other guy in more pain than you. So as the boys learned the mechanics of the fight, a few like Zab could not help but try it out now and then. Zab even said he and his brother Daniel were ''the fightingest brothers in Brooklyn.''
> 
> ''I was not a troubled, bad kid,'' Zab said, ''but I had all this energy. I was just bound to be a boxer.''
> 
> So, it seems, were all the Judahs. Three of them have won the Golden Gloves, the well-known amateur tournament: Ariel, once; Daniel, twice; and Zab, three times. Some, like Michael, have also maintained their study of the martial arts.
> 
> But Zab is the hope of his father, the world champion. That is why Yoel doctored Zab's birth certificate when the 16-year-old was too young to enter the Golden Gloves the first time around. Zab thanked him by winning the tournament. Two years later, when Lou Duva, who was then a manager with Main Events, invited Zab to spar with Pernell (Sweet Pea) Whitaker, it was Yoel who told his son to play it cool in front of the promoters.
> 
> ''I was overwhelmed,'' Zab said, ''but the whole time Dad was saying: 'Be careful of the hand that gives you gifts. Nobody gives you nothing for nothing.' And he was right. It was good advice.''
> 
> Yoel said Zab has ''grown into a very smart kid.''
> 
> ''But you know, I raised all my sons to think for themselves,'' he said. ''I told them, 'I'll help you as much as I can, but you got to make it happen because one day I'm not going to be around, and I want you to survive and take care of yourself.' All my sons' lives are better than mine because I made it that way.''
> 
> An Undercurrent of Independence
> 
> Zab Judah has spent a short lifetime listening to his father, absorbing his order. So when it is his turn to talk these days, he speaks in the same low, rumbling way. He even tosses up like-minded phrases about ''the awareness of self.'' It is clear that the Judahs are a family too tightly laced for notions of real independence. Yoel will not let go of Team Judah, and Zab will not ask him to do so.
> 
> ''Me and my guys, we're like a fortress,'' Yoel said. ''I love them. They love me. Case closed.''
> 
> Zab still depends on his father, especially where his rising career is concerned. Zab is currently entertaining a $5 million contract renewal from Main Events, as well as endorsement offers from Magic Johnson, the Wayans brothers and Pepsi. He has top-drawer representation in Finkel, his manager, and his earnings have topped $250,000. But Yoel still has final say on all matters, which is why Zab waited six months to buy a $60,000 gold Cadillac Escalade with some of his prize money. He wanted his father's permission first.
> 
> ''He taught me everything I know,'' Zab said. ''Why would I take advice from my father my whole life, and then one day put someone over him just because they're XYZ? I just wouldn't allow that to happen.''
> 
> But under that loyal veneer, things are changing for Zab. He is a man now, and he was reared to act like one, to think for himself. And sometimes, especially lately, he thinks about not being a boxer.
> 
> Sitting in his pearlized sports utility vehicle after the workout, he quietly said that he would never have pursued the sport had his father not been a fighter. There is a lot of pride and a little resentment in his voice when he talks about such things. Because now that he is successful, Zab knows what kind of world and profession his father has given him. He loves his father, but there is an unmistakable strain. Zab is at the age when one wants to break free and forge ahead, confident and capable and separate. But he cannot move far from his father.
> 
> As for boxing, he has never been seriously injured, he said, but he does ache and bleed. He spends extra hours in the ring working on defense because of friends like Stephan Johnson, a Brooklyn fighter who died last fall from a boxing-related concussion. Zab also knows plenty about those in the boxing business who would take advantage of the unwary, so he buys books on financial planning and invests most of his earnings in the stock market.
> 
> There is still plenty of bravado in him, of course. He still has a few ideas about greater greatness, about becoming the undisputed champion of the world and fighting two opponents on the same night. He also wants to have a family of his own, and he wants to be a good father. He wants to be a role model and a best friend, just as his father is to him.
> 
> But Zab's fathering will be different. In his family, when he is the father, he said that boxing will not be encouraged. Zab's order will have to come from somewhere else. His will not be the fighting kind.
> 
> ''No way,'' he said, his voice hovering above a whisper. ''From me being in it and knowing the game and knowing what's behind it, I would never try to put my child through that. I'm going to try to make enough of a life for me, my kids and their kids.''


----------



## LittleRed

This thread deserve to be love. 

Good thread. 

Abreast of the news of the now

Is Roman Gonzalez the new Ricardo Lopez? 

MITES might dismiss or even dissemination

But Blondie he knows the truth


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Is Roman Gonzalez the new Ricardo Lopez?


Time sure has changed you.

You have faded into nicaraguan.

This will cure your madness:


----------



## Michael

Troy Dorsey might just be the worst fighter in the history of the planet


----------



## Lester1583

Michael said:


> Troy Dorsey might just be the worst fighter in the history of the planet


We don't call shitty fighters bad here, Michael.

We prefer terms like technically challenged or skill set disabled.

Please refrain from using offensive language.


----------



## Michael

Lester1583 said:


> We don't call shitty fighters bad here, Michael.
> 
> We prefer terms like technically challenged or skill set disabled.
> 
> Please refrain from using offensive language.


Ive literally ever seen such a triumph of will over skills as ive seen in his career mate. Terrible defense, terrible punch technique, couldn't punch, couldn't counter, woeful footwork. The only thing he had going for him is a ridiculous engine and a chin like concrete. He's an absolute mentalist to, watched his fight with Kevin Kelley last night and I never saw a fighter so willing to take 5 shots to the head to land a few arm punches. Still he's an all action fighter and if you combine that with the perm hairstyle, his toughness and the thick as hell Texas accent, well then you've got a cult hero there sir. I imagine he's the kind of fighter you have a poster of on your bedroom wall actually.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Time sure has changed you.
> 
> You have faded into nicaraguan.
> 
> This will cure your madness:


I don't know how but that did convince me of two things; Lopez is the best fighter below 300 pounds and Naseem Hamed was the Led Zeppelin of boxing entrances.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> We don't call shitty fighters bad here, Michael.
> 
> We prefer terms like technically challenged or skill set disabled.
> 
> Please refrain from using offensive language.


:lol:


----------



## Lester1583

> I wanna have children with her


----------



## Drew101

Since this is a feather-fist free zone, here's the legendary iteration of Michael Moorer. Melo and his epic 80's hairdo gets wiped out by Moorer's left to the body that's completely missed by the ever-incisive Ferdie Pacheco.


----------



## dyna

Shame Curtis Stevens - Kingsley Ikeke never happened.
The height disparity would have been cool.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> - You eine, zwei, sechs times a lady.


One of Ward's favourite fighters is Henry Maske.

I'm cheering for Ward from now on.


----------



## Lester1583

Drew101 said:


> feather-fist free zone


Never liked Moorer. 
As a heavyweight.

As a lightweight he was pretty good.
A Virgil Hill-level or thereabouts.
His plodding feet and methodical pace (due to weight cutting probably) were his weaknesses.
And he liked to stay behind his guard too much.

But a dangerous puncher/stalker nonetheless. 
No worse than someone like Kovalev.
Although I'd be more comfortable with matching him against Prince Charles, Michalczewski and the likes rather than Hill, Maske, Parlov, etc.


----------



## Drew101

Lester1583 said:


> Never liked Moorer.
> As a heavyweight.
> 
> As a lightweight he was pretty good.
> A Virgil Hill-level or thereabouts.
> His plodding feet and methodical pace (due to weight cutting probably) were his weaknesses.
> And he liked to stay behind his guard too much.
> 
> But a dangerous puncher/stalker nonetheless.
> No worse than someone like Kovalev.
> Although I'd be more comfortable with matching him against Prince Charles, Michalczewski and the likes rather Hill, Maske, Parlov, etc.


Yeah, Stewart was actually outboxing him for a little while (or at least out-working and out-manoeuvring him). Kind of leads one to believe that Hill might have been able to do the same over the distance had they been able to unify.

Then again...That body shot wasn't any worse than the one Jones landed...:think


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> - Dans l'espace inouÃ¯ de l'amour.





Lester1583 said:


> The counter right uppercut is one of the hardest punches to master.


Laurent Boudouani was very dangerous with it.
Vasquez knows.

Not just uppercut - he was very good at fighting off the backfoot/counter attacking.

Boudouani was good for a splinter-ignored-by-the media european champ.

Not as good as KÃ¶nig Artur but who was?

Stylistically, think of a sturdier less epileptic much harder hitting Amir Khan.
Or a baguette El Feo.
Boudouani's KO record wasn't artificially inflated - he could punch.
Was a good body puncher too.

Fast feet, fast hands, fast combinations but somewhat stiff, not the most durable and didn't like pressure.

Both of his TKO losses were classic cases of a hyperactive fighter succumbing to the pressure/punching himself out.
Check out Budouani - Bernard Razzano, @dyna - it's a good dramatic fight that demonstrates both Laurent's strengths and weaknesses.

Alas, just as with KÃ¶nig and many other obscure euro greats, most are only familiar with a diminished version of Boudouani.

Boudouani had already begun to decline by the time he won the title.

He wasn't shot or anything when Cyclop Reid dethroned him - but clearly lost a few steps - legs gone, handspeed deteriorated.

He received his biggest purse for a respectable Reid loss and retired forever.

And thus ended the journey of a speedo-wearing french champion.

Before anyone asks - yes, he would beat Alvarez.


----------



## SoF

If Boudouani can beat one of my favourite boxers in El Felino, he must have been good.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Laurent Boudouani was very dangerous with it.
> Vasquez knows.
> 
> Not just uppercut - he was very good at fighting off the backfoot/counter attacking.
> 
> Boudouani was good for a splinter-ignored-by-the media european champ.
> 
> Not as good as König Artur but who was?
> 
> Stylistically, think of a sturdier less epileptic much harder hitting Amir Khan.
> Or a baguette El Feo.
> Boudouani's KO record wasn't artificially inflated - he could punch.
> Was a good body puncher too.
> 
> Fast feet, fast hands, fast combinations but somewhat stiff, not the most durable and didn't like pressure.
> 
> Both of his TKO losses were classic cases of a hyperactive fighter succumbing to the pressure/punching himself out.
> Check out Budouani - Bernard Razzano, @dyna - it's a good dramatic fight that demonstrates both Laurent strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> Alas, just as with König and many other obscure euro greats, most are only familiar with a diminished version of Boudouani.
> 
> Boudouani had already begun to decline by the time he won the title.
> 
> He wasn't shot or anything when Cyclop Reid dethroned him - but clearly lost a few steps - legs gone, handspeed deteriorated.
> 
> He received his biggest purse for the respectable Reid loss and retired forever.
> 
> And thus ended the journey of a speedo-wearing french champion.
> 
> Before anyone asks - yes, he would beat Alvarez.


I love Cyclops, but that is a very close and debatable fight.

Malnourished Kenyan sparking Boudoir in the Olympics was clear as day though.



SoF said:


> If Boudouani can beat one of my favourite boxers in El Felino, he must have been good.


He was very good, but also arguable whether he deserved to beat Jones.


----------



## SoF

@Flea Man

Might see if I can get any footage of that one on my way home from work.


----------



## Flea Man

SoF said:


> @Flea Man
> 
> Might see if I can get any footage of that one on my way home from work.


Both on YouTube I think mate.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> I love Cyclops, but that is a very close and debatable fight.


HBO said Reid won.

I believe them.

I believe in America.



Flea Man said:


> Malnourished Kenyan sparking Boudoir in the Olympics was clear as day though.


Fluke.

Premature eja... stoppage.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> HBO said Reid won.
> 
> I believe them.
> 
> I believe in America.


When a man has one eye, I take my sympathy into account when scoring the rounds.

Therefore, 115-113 Reid was a fair score.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Laurent Boudouani was very dangerous with it.
> Vasquez knows.
> 
> Not just uppercut - he was very good at fighting off the backfoot/counter attacking.
> 
> Fast feet, fast hands, fast combinations but somewhat stiff, not the most durable and didn't like pressure.
> 
> Both of his TKO losses were classic cases of a hyperactive fighter succumbing to the pressure/punching himself out.
> Check out Budouani - Bernard Razzano, @dyna - it's a good dramatic fight that demonstrates both Laurent's strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> Before anyone asks - yes, he would beat Alvarez.


Those right counter uppercuts were sick.
Round 7 was great, love it when nobody can hear the gong over the crowd

But would the judges see it for Boudouani?


----------



## Lester1583

Pierre "The Jabsnatcher" Fourie.

The greatest white bob'n'weave fighter?

The Foster robberies prove he undoubtedly is.


----------



## Lester1583

400 hundred years.

Aryan Supremacy.

Police brutality.

Mustacheod titans.

It's all there.

The greatest staredown of all time:


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Pierre "The Jabsnatcher" Fourie.
> 
> The greatest white bob'n'weave fighter?
> 
> The Foster robberies prove he undoubtedly is.


Being the greatest white bob and weave fighter is like being the tallest pygmy. Somebody has to be it but just because they think it be like is don't make it.

In other words not worth a whole lot.


----------



## Lampley

Knoetze's body reminds me of the pre-roids Povetkin.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> I deny Saint Chava.


Time sure has changed you, LR.

When was the last time you watched Finito naked in a room full of mirrors?


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Time sure has changed you, LR.
> 
> When was the last time you watched Finito naked in a room full of mirrors?


I've jumped on the bandwagon lester. It's time for a new sheriff. And his name rhymes with blomachenko.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> I've jumped on the bandwagon


You're officially not a Mexican anymore.

Might as well start cheering for Danny Garcia.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> You're officially not a Mexican anymore.
> 
> Might as well start cheering for Danny Garcia.


You have gone too far.

I would rather boxing be abolished and we all watch competitive tickling than cheer for Garcia.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> What more could I say? I wouldn't be here today if Iron Mike didn't pave the way.





Bill Jincock said:


> He don't lie, he don't lie, he don't lie.
> Cocaine.


Been rewatching some Curry and Nunn lately.

Saw a thread on ESB too.

It's a good and a tough to answer question - who was better between the two?

Prime for Prime, of course, fuck that resume-nit-picking shit.

Similarly talented yet so different.

We're all familiar with their strengths and weaknesses - and the answer is more a matter of personal taste.

Logic, especially after rewatching Nunn vs Curry, suggests that Curry was better.

The fight is actually a relatively interesting one.

Nunn was on the decline already (more mentally than physically) - poor tactics, laziness, unfocused, sloppiness, unnecessary risks, etc.

Curry was way past his best obviously - but not nearly as bad as he was against Norris - the Nunn fight is basically his last hurrah.
Had it been someone else instead of Nunn, I'd say Curry could've snatched a title from a weaker champ.

Surprisingly enough, Curry was fighting on even terms with Nunn, arguably ahead on the scorecards after 4 rounds.
Countering Nunn well, pressuring the bigger man, taking advantage of Nunn's technical mistakes - in other words, being the better boxer.

And then in the 5th round Curry stopped.
In a matter of minutes he turned into an old fighter.

The fresher Nunn took over and beat down Curry into submission.

Anyway.

It's not that Curry has only skills on his side - he was excellent physically as well.
Aside from footspeed, reflexes and some minor stuff, Nunn is hardly that superior in that regard.

But.
But.
But.

That stiffness of Curry - not stylistic only but also mental _(linked to each other)_.
And Nunn's natural creativity, unorthodox freestyling and fighting spirit.

If that makes any sense, I'd say Curry would look better against more fighters/styles, while Nunn was capable of beating greater fighters.

Curry's parrying though.
The Elio Diaz fight, which is rarely ever mentioned, is a prime example of his aggressive defense.


----------



## Lester1583

The LaRocca destruction.

It's like stopping a prime Ali who was on Robinson's streak.

Greatnessness.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Been rewatching some Curry and Nunn lately.
> 
> Saw a thread on ESB too.
> 
> It's a good and a tough to answer question - who was better between the two?
> 
> Prime for Prime, of course, fuck that resume-nit-picking shit.
> 
> Similarly talented yet so different.
> 
> We're all familiar with their strengths and weaknesses - and the answer is more a matter of personal taste.
> 
> Logic, especially after rewatching Nunn vs Curry, suggests that Curry was better.
> 
> The fight is actually a relatively interesting one.
> 
> Nunn was on the decline already (more mentally than physically) - poor tactics, laziness, unfocused, sloppiness, unnecessary risks, etc.
> 
> Curry was way past his best obviously - but not nearly as bad as he was against Norris - the Nunn fight is basically his last hurrah.
> Had it been someone else instead of Nunn, I'd say Curry could've snatched a title from a weaker champ.
> 
> Surprisingly enough, Curry was fighting on even terms with Nunn, arguably ahead on the scorecards after 4 rounds.
> Countering Nunn well, pressuring the bigger man, taking advantage of Nunn's technical mistakes - in other words, being the better boxer.
> 
> And then in the 5th round Curry stopped.
> In a matter of minutes he turned into an old fighter.
> 
> The fresher Nunn took over and beat down Curry into submission.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> It's not that Curry has only skills on his side - he was excellent physically as well.
> Aside from footspeed, reflexes and some minor stuff, Nunn is hardly that superior in that regard.
> 
> But.
> But.
> But.
> 
> That stiffness of Curry - not stylistic only but also mental _(linked to each other)_.
> And Nunn's natural creativity, unorthodox freestyling and fighting spirit.
> 
> If that makes any sense, I'd say Curry would look better against more fighters/styles, while Nunn was capable of beating greater fighters.
> 
> Curry's parrying though.
> The Elio Diaz fight, which is rarely ever mentioned, is a prime example of his aggressive defense.


I'm not sure it was simply a case of Curry fading, I got the feeling Nunn could turn up the pace and when he moved more to control range and circled and jabbed it wasn't a contest. Nunn makes all kinds of technical cardinal sins with his low hands and his talent made him think he could get away with exchanging inside against better infighters who didn't arm punch as Nunn did. His greater athleticism and physical attributes meant he could get away with these mistakes and comeback to light his opponent up whenever he saw fit. He's basically the middleweight Ali, all the same errors. And that's why James Toney knocked him out and why Ali wouldn't be so great if he was fighting at a better weight class against men who were the same size. If Nunn was technically solid and an intelligent ring general he'd be the best MW ever.


----------



## Flea Man

Powerpuncher said:


> Ali wouldn't be so great if he was fighting at a better weight class against men who were the same size.


Absolute bullshit.


----------



## Powerpuncher

Flea Man said:


> Absolute bullshit.


Only because it's a theoretically discussion. If you shrunk a Prime Ali down to a 6'0 MW with all the same attributes and put him in with the 80s and early 90s MWs he'd have plenty of losses. As it was he got hit an awful lot and had questionable decisions after he hit 30 because of his technical mistakes.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> I'm not sure it was simply a case of Curry fading, I got the feeling Nunn could turn up the pace and when he moved more to control range and circled and jabbed it wasn't a contest.


Agreed.
This too.



Powerpuncher said:


> Nunn makes all kinds of technical cardinal sins


That's all well and good, but you sound like a '09 Floyd.

Don't beat around the bush.

- Make Da Pick!!!


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> As it was he got hit an awful lot and had questionable decisions after he hit 30 because of his technical mistakes.


Have you seen Jones-Lebedev, PP?

Tough fight to watch if you're a Roy-boy but worth a look for scientific purposes.

For a completely shot fighter who "only had speed and roids" Jones performed surprisingly well.

Lebedev isn't a master-boxer but he's a very dangerous boxer-puncher who understands his strengths and limitations very well.
Still the number 1/2 fighter in the division.

And Jones was giving him some serious trouble.
Even hurt him at some point.
Which is more than most fighters can say about their experience of sharing the ring with Lebedev.

Not bad for a fighter who never learned how to box.

Now, Norris-Leonard on the other hand is the definite proof of Leonard being nothing but an overrated speedster and a shrewd matchmaker.
That's pretty much the consensus.


----------



## Lester1583

The awesomeness of El Feo.

It cannot be measured.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> The awesomeness of El Feo.
> 
> It cannot be measured.


It cannot. He beats any Cuban from 147-154 hands down.

ANY of them.

Except from GavilÃ¡n.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> It cannot. He beats any Cuban from 147-154 hands down.
> 
> ANY of them.
> 
> Except from Golimar


That Robinson was able to beat Galivan.

Twice.

Erasing all doubt about who was the better man.

That's the definitive proof of his abilities - not the LaMotta series, not come-from-behind ko's, not Burt's fairy tales of non-existent fights.


----------



## Lester1583

Let's for once remove Hagler's biggest weakness.

@Bill Jincock travels back in time, sneaks into Tony Sibson's dad's room and puts the mongolian telecast of Kalule-Bushy Bester on repeat.
Sibbo's old man dies in his sleep.

Enters Monzon.
He's just a challenger with dangerous reputation but that's about it.

Hagler sees him as just another tough title defense; moderate media coverage; Hagler is a favorite; casuals overlooking the fight but hardcore fans think the balcon-jumper can make it competitive with his his outfighting skils.

Now that would be a different fight, than the usual "icy cold stare" domination win for the Argentinian.


----------



## Lester1583

Sometimes a fighter is too dominant for his own good.

First 154 unification in history.
Two undefeated lightning fast murderous punchers.

Grudge.
Femme fatale.
Lies.
Big expectations.

Nothing happened.

Burning fire in Terrible Terry's eyes was so intimidating it reduced the once proud Vaden to a shy schoolgirl.

The biggest win since the monumental Obed-Oliveira went completely unnoticed.

But our children will remember.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> suck my cigar


Senya with them cold hard facts as usual:


burt "sugar" bienstock said:


> the fact that in 1947 Pep was in that near fatal plane crash that killed most in his plane and left the critically injured Pep fighting for his life. He through sheer luck pulled through and in traction for almost 6 months, walked again and somehow fought again...I remember the boxing fraternity were astounded by Pep's return to the ring as I was too.





Senya13 said:


> Facts: 3 dead, 20 injured. Pep had a broken left leg and some rib injuries. His condition was reported as good next day after the crash. Later an x-ray revealed he had two split and chipped vertebrae which were said to be "neither serious nor uncommon." He was back in the gym by mid-May and back in the ring a month later with an easy victory over a tune-up opponent, "displaying much of his old-time prowess and speed".


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Plaza de Toros Calafia.
> Even the walls of this venue scream for bloodshed.


It's not that obscure but is definitely up there with the most legendary trilogies.

Fake coma, tears of Suleiman, Don King's good side, Pacheco's hypocrisy and justice for all:


----------



## Stone Rose

It's become a the equivalent of a dirty word in boxing but if ever two men were worthy of the words it's these two on this night .....






Could someone please embed it


----------



## Lester1583

A crude limited puncher?
Nothing to worry about for a far superior fast skilled fighter.

And yet Jones named Locomotora as his toughest opponent.
And it's no coincidence that Reggie and JD Jackson - both solid technicians - had trouble with him.

L's brawling style was deceptively easy to figure out.

But if you look a little closer you'll see that he rarely was hit with big clean punches, played possum very well, was setting traps on the ropes, lulled his opponents to sleep and then put them to sleep.

Those unorthodox, awkward, wild swings are hard to predict - especially for a textbook fighter. 
Add in a granite chin, indomitable will and enormous sex appeal.

He's what Maidana always wished to be.

One of Norris' best performances.
Chin-wise too.


----------



## Lester1583

- So I ducked Pryor! So what?!
- You're fucked.

















By 1993 Norris was already bench pressing 310 pounds.

Leonard was lucky he cherry picked a teenage Terry.


----------



## Lester1583

It took 3 robberies in a row to finally retire Foster.

And they call Ottke protected.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> - So I ducked Pryor! So what?!
> - You're fucked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By 1993 Norris was already bench pressing 310 pounds.
> 
> Leonard was lucky he cherry picked a teenage Terry.


Ray has dadbod here.


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> But if you look a little closer you'll see that he rarely was hit with big clean punches, played possum very well, was setting traps on the ropes, lulled his opponents to sleep and then put them to sleep.


Prime Locomotora - classic argentinian onslaught:





And a bit of tango and shadowboxing:


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


> - You'll be my girls.


One of Curry's only four amateur losses:





Looks a bit more fragile; stiff as usual; but the speed, cobra movement and left hook are all there.


----------



## PityTheFool

dyna said:


> Isn't fame in the NFL primarily based on your achievements and excellence?
> Can a bad player in the NFL ever become famous without doing some crazy stuff outside the game?
> 
> In boxing you don't need to be excellent, matchmaking can be kind and people love wars and drama more than highly efficient jab and grab styles.


So every other sport with a Hall Of Fame has inductees based on excellence,statistics,ability and achievement,but boxing is all about viewing figures?


----------



## dyna

PityTheFool said:


> So every other sport with a Hall Of Fame has inductees based on excellence,statistics,ability and achievement,but boxing is all about viewing figures?


I think fighting sports are a bit different than normal sports.
Being skilled and better helps a whole lot, but it isn't all you need


----------



## PityTheFool

dyna said:


> I think fighting sports are a bit different than normal sports.
> Being skilled and better helps a whole lot, but it isn't all you need


So you can never be on a P4P list,never be the best in any division,never beat anything approaching a great fighter,but because you get good viewing figures and your deficiencies in the ring are a big reason why your fights are exciting,and that means you deserve to be a first ballot inductee alongside true greats of the sport?

So basically,even though we weren't told,the IBHOF is more similar to the Rock n Roll HOF than the NFL or the NBA?
I hated Hamed with a passion,but he was as famous as Gatti,as exciting and a far more accomplished fighter,and needed double figure ballots to pass before he got in?
Gatti was a C level fighter at best,never beat a HOF fighter and lost to ATGs like King Solomon or whatever his name was,and he lost several times in his prime,which is not the case of most old time fighters who got in with what looks on paper,questionable records when you look at the L section.
A special award maybe,but no way should he have got in as a first ballot.
I already know the HOF is a joke (and Gatti's induction confirmed that),but I want to know where it says you don't have to be an excellent fighter to get in as a participant.
Gatti's induction as a first ballot is a shit stain that no detergent will ever remove.Let's get Mickey Ward in there too.


----------



## dyna

PityTheFool said:


> So you can never be on a P4P list,never be the best in any division,never beat anything approaching a great fighter,but because you get good viewing figures and your deficiencies in the ring are a big reason why your fights are exciting,and that means you deserve to be a first ballot inductee alongside true greats of the sport?


I'm not saying that.
Gatti shouldn't be in the same hall as Leonard, Benitez, Duran and Hearns, that's certain.

But he's certainly deserving to be in a hall of _fame_, not a hall of merit but one just for fame.



PityTheFool said:


> So basically,even though we weren't told,the IBHOF is more similar to the Rock n Roll HOF than the NFL or the NBA?
> I hated Hamed with a passion,but he was as famous as Gatti,as exciting and a far more accomplished fighter,and needed double figure ballots to pass before he got in?
> Gatti was a C level fighter at best,never beat a HOF fighter and lost to ATGs like King Solomon or whatever his name was,and he lost several times in his prime,which is not the case of most old time fighters who got in with what looks on paper,questionable records when you look at the L section.
> *A special award maybe,but no way should he have got in as a first ballot.*
> I already know the HOF is a joke (and Gatti's induction confirmed that),but I want to know where it says you don't have to be an excellent fighter to get in as a participant.
> Gatti's induction as a first ballot is a shit stain that no detergent will ever remove.Let's get Mickey Ward in there too.


I agree with the bold part.

Isn't Rocky Balboa in the IBHOF too?
I just put Gatti and Balboa together, but no way should Arturo have a first ballot one alongside fighters who had much more merit in their abilities.


----------



## PityTheFool

dyna said:


> I'm not saying that.
> Gatti shouldn't be in the same hall as Leonard, Benitez, Duran and Hearns, that's certain.
> 
> But he's certainly deserving to be in a hall of _fame_, not a hall of merit but one just for fame.
> 
> I agree with the bold part.
> 
> Isn't Rocky Balboa in the IBHOF too?
> I just put Gatti and Balboa together, but no way should Arturo have a first ballot one alongside fighters who had much more merit in their abilities.


Stallone is in as a well deserving non-participant.That is the lamest argument when it comes to Gatti yet so many seem to fall back on it.
How can someone who got in as a non-participant(and that's another aspect of the HOF which dilutes it even though Stallone deserved it under the criteria) be compared to an actual fighter? but it seems we're in agreement about my major issue here and that is that there is no way history should have been allowed to show that Gatti was a first ballot inductee.
I'd have had no problems with a special award in his honour though,with maybe exceptional cases being awarded it when they live up to what Gatti was good at.


----------



## Tippy

Lester1583 said:


> One of Curry's only four amateur losses:
> [video=youtube;MpTcUjitOU4]
> 
> 
> 
> [/video]
> 
> Looks a bit more fragile; stiff as usual; but the speed, cobra movement and left hook are all there.


Curry putting on an easy performance there before the cut, not much of a loss at all. Anybody got more detailed info on his other amateur losses, his records usually mentioned to be somewhere between 390-410 wins and 4,5,6 losses, Curry seems sure he had only 4, one there on a cut, one to Jose Aquilar and the other two to ?

Curry was such a natural boxer and athlete though, having around a 400-4 amateur career (beginning when he was 8) and only really starting to train more and take boxing seriously when he was 16 because winning national titles on television gave him "the opportunity to pick up girls a lot easier" makes it more impressive, especially considering before that it seemed he didnt train for boxing much at all and just did it when he was bored

Any other Curry Amateur footage around would be appreciated too, only seen the two losses so far and pretty sure theres nothing else up, if there is though please post






Pity what happened to him, in ring he was always so methodical and calculated (bar the Montgomery hit after the DQ, a bit of what gave him trouble may have leaked out there) but his out of ring life always seemed a bit dodgy and it hasnt seemed to stop for him yet, from his managements twitter it does look like hes tryna get back into the boxing world with interviews and training etc. I hope he ends up doing one of the Best ive faced interviews


----------



## Lester1583

Robinson-***** MD is almost as legit as Mayweather-Alvarez.
A good example of a fighter carrying his opponent.
That one-legged jab.

With that said, judging by *****' fights with Robinson and Bratton, it's pretty safe to say that SRR was nothing but a poor man's Honey Boy.
Miles Davis would agree.

Triangle theories do work in boxing.


----------



## Lester1583

Bill Jincock said:


> - Self-portrait:


Remember the tricky Steve Little?

A distinguished amateur and an underachieved pro.

Fought all the way up to cruiserweight.

Dropped and beat prime Nunn, Cuevas, Machine Gun Braxton, undefeated Wolfe and even drew with a technical wizard Merqui Sosa himself!

Legitimately stopped only once in his illustrious career.

Who was that amazing fighter who managed to pull off the impossible?
How did he do that?
Was it hard?

- Easier than taking sugar from Ray.









Norris' right hand wasn't always the crispest when he threw it in combos.

But that one-two that sent Little to hell - the best right hand Terrible Terry ever threw.


----------



## dyna

Argentinian national anthem played by a harmonica before the Cuenca-Troyanovsky fight is deserving to be called legend.


----------



## Lester1583

This belongs here:



Hands of Iron said:


> Napoles had an equivalent if not greater ability where offensive/defensive integration is concerned in comparison to Duran.
> 
> Saw this line of thought trotted out a few more times than I'd care to stomach. False.





Lester1583 said:


> Depends on what you're talking about.
> 
> If strictly defense/offense intergration - than no, it's not false.
> 
> It's an interesting question actually - technical and physical differences between these two - much better than the tiresome Mayweather beats everyone threads.
> 
> The sole available footage of the prime Napoles looks as impressive as any of Duran's overrated lightweight wins over manlets.
> Arguably.





Hands of Iron said:


> I think if you're talking mixing offense with smooth, economical footwork then Napoles for certain. If it's slippery head and upper body movement, that's Duran's cake. Napoles actually might've been a better counterpuncher, which is probably where part of that comes from, but I wouldn't rate his offensive arsenal as a whole higher. This is close. And Chavezito is a tier below, he's too rigid here.


The main thing that separates Duran from Napoles and almost everybody is his return into defensive positions/immediate readiness for another attack.

Basically almost impossible to catch him off guard/beat him while he's in that ebb-n-flow groove.

Especially in close quarters.

Napoles' style is far riskier with that chin unportected/hands low/baiting constantly stuff.

Hence the unnecesary losses once his reflexes declined - and they declined very quickly at welter.

Luckily for him, his chin was iron - although for some reason he rarely gets mentioned in those ATG-chins discussions.

Actually, wouldn't say his offensive arsenal was inferior to that of Duran's - he was just slower, far less explosive.
Although it wasn't really in his style to be explosive/have unpredictable surges of aggression - the same goes for his worshippers - Conteh and Canizales to some extent.
And his peer, the peerless El Gato.

But as a punch-picker, he's hard to top.

Napoles is enormous at mid-range too - controls it perfectly.
That was his bread and butter









@Powerpuncher, Floyd fans imitate all the wrong things - you're avoiding fight after fight.
Watch Malinga-Lindell Holmes, Lebedev-Jones and come back here with your unorthodox attack on Duran's face-first brawling ass.
It's not too late, man, I'm still in my prime, unlike Pacquiao.

@Bill Jincock - stop lurking, start jerking.
Publicly.

@LittleRed - you once were a Mexican, for crissake.
Show some love for these two eses.

@Flea Man - don't post here.
Just read and learn.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> And Chavezito is a tier below, he's too rigid here.


He was no Jofre.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> He was no Jofre.


Jofre wasn't Jofre either. It's all Samart Payakaroon from here on out.


----------



## Lester1583

Quincy Taylor.

The mysterious man with a historical win over Hagler via a brutal KO of Leonard.

Unstoppable in his prime, a murderous puncher and a relentless warrior.

But.

In an unforgettable war of attrition Terry Norris outfought, outboxed and outmanned undefeated Quincy.

And in the process displayed a dazzling variety of non-telegraphed uppercuts, Walcott's walk away feints and a titanium chin that withstood bombs that left lesser men unconscious, gay and coke-addicted.

It's the only time the world has ever seen Norris breathing heavily after the fight.
The price of victory.
The price of greatness.

In the corner of Q.Taylor there was a visibly shaken man present.
A former Donald Curry's towel boy who got fired due to constant stealing, Ray Leonard.

He saw how amazing Terrible Terry was.
He saw and still cherry-picked him years later.
Some might ask: "Why?"
Pathetic fools.

As Ray used to sing to his roommate Aaron back in the 70's:
"I'm sorry it went down like this
And someone had to lose
It's the nature of the business
It's the Cherry-picker's blues".



Spoiler



- Boy you should have known by now, Terry duz it.











Quincy's lone stoppage loss worth a look for Meldrick Taylor's tears alone.
It was more or less a pretty close fight with Quincy slightly ahead:
Keith Holmes lands a hard right hook outta nowhere in the 9th round;
Quincy goes down, gets up immediately;
K.Holmes goes for the kill, lands a couple of not very hard punches, the still hurt Quincy tries to punch back.

... Suddenly Richard "2 sec" Steele jumps in and stops the fight.

What's even more hilarious is that Quincy was like: "I ain't even mad. It's Steele, what did you expect. It's my fault".

Those were the days.

@Hands of Iron
@PityTheFool


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> This belongs here:
> 
> The main thing that separates Duran from Napoles and almost everybody is his return into defensive positions/immediate readiness for another attack.
> 
> Basically almost impossible to catch him off guard/beat him while he's in that ebb-n-flow groove.
> 
> Especially in close quarters.
> 
> Napoles' style is far riskier with that chin unportected/hands low/baiting constantly stuff.
> 
> Hence the unnecesary losses once his reflexes declined - and they declined very quickly at welter.
> 
> Luckily for him, his chin was iron - although for some reason he rarely gets mentioned in those ATG-chins discussions.
> 
> Actually, wouldn't say his offensive arsenal was inferior to that of Duran's - he was just slower, far less explosive.
> Although it wasn't really in his style to be explosive/have unpredictable surges of aggression - the same goes for his worshippers - Conteh and Canizales to some extent.
> And his peer, the peerless El Gato.
> 
> But as a punch-picker he's hard to top.
> 
> Napoles is enormous at mid-range too - controls it perfectly.
> That was his bread and butter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Powerpuncher, Floyd fans imitate all the wrong things - you're avoiding fight after fight.
> Watch Malinga-Lindell Holmes, Lebedev-Jones and come back here with your unorthodox attack on Duran's face-first brawling ass.
> It's not too late, man, I'm still in my prime, unlike Pacquiao.
> 
> @Bill Jincock - stop lurking, start jerking.
> Publicly.
> 
> @LittleRed - you once were a Mexican, for crissake.
> Show some love for these two eses.
> 
> @Flea Man - don't post here.
> Just read and learn.


This is a lovely little post, for some reason I did not receive notifications for the quotes that were transported over here. I don't think those other guys (aside from LR) are up for it anymore, brother. PP is active but has been consumed by this mrtony80 thing, Flea only comes on for the Rooq-whatever and Jincock is just completely MIA. Shame because they all have perspective on it that's probably a good notch or two up. Well, at least where Jose Napoles is concerned. I'm not ceding anything on Robearto(e) these days.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Robinson-***** MD is almost as legit as Mayweather-Alvarez.
> A good example of a fighter carrying his opponent.
> That one-legged jab.
> 
> With that said, judging by *****' fights with Robinson and Bratton, it's pretty safe to say that SRR was nothing but a poor man's Honey Boy.
> Miles Davis would agree.
> 
> Triangle theories do work in boxing.


There's a moment in that fight when Robinson almost knocks ***** out of the ring and does everything but dance a jig to kill the clock until ***** recovered. I vaguely remember an article in which Abe Attell (no stranger to fights not quite level) said that robinson carried so many guys he was humpbacked.

As for Napoles and Duran the question becomes about what you mean by integrating attack and defense. If we're talking off the front foot is Duran; backing up us napoles (with SRR very close). But there were other guys who could shift pretty seamlessly. And there are guys who offense and defense are one and the same; sung kil moon.


----------



## Lester1583

Bomber Graham on sparring Duran:



> "Hi Herol. I've got your sparring arrangements here. You're starting tomorrow at Duran's gym."
> "Duran? Roberto Duran? Former World Champion Roberto Duran? Fucking hell!
> That night I could hardly sleep I was so excited.
> 
> ...Then I saw Roberto Duran but only just, because he was surrounded by the biggest entourage of trainers, minders and people to make the tea that I had ever seen.
> It all looked a bit over the top for a sparring session to me, but then I saw that there were two or three press guys there with photographers.
> 
> Duran had a massive reputation, but he didn't look all that frightening when I met him.
> He was shorter than me, but muscular, and had a stern look frozen on his face.
> He was very sure of himself and didn't have a lot to say, he just kind of sneered at me like some sort of pantomime villain.
> I smiled back.
> 
> We got in the ring and as I went to touch his gloves he just took a step back, so I thought "this could be fun".
> He didn't seem to have warmed to me, but maybe he was like that with everyone, or maybe he was in the zone.
> But as we got going, for normal sparring he was coming on a bit strong.
> He caught me twice and pretty hard, so I started to move myself about.
> I moved my shoulders and started switching back which made him miss me a couple of times.
> We kept moving about for another thirty seconds and he couldn't hit me.
> Then all of sudden he stopped, glared at me, and pushed me in the chest with both hands saying:
> "Who do you think you are? My name is Roberto Duran!"
> I knew that already. I only managed to say:
> "My name is..." when he turned his back on me.
> We carried on sparring and he kept on swinging, missing and then beckoning me.
> After two rounds he'd had enough.
> "No, no." He kept on saying" I'm Duran - Duran".
> It probably didn't help my cause when I said, "well I'm Spandau Ballet."
> 
> So I was sacked.
> 
> I have to say that before I'd met the famous Roberto Duran I was really excited about sparring with him but after I met him I thought he was a bit of an arsehole.
> He was so rude.
> Just my opinion of course, and he probably didn't like me making him look silly in front of his people and a couple of press guys.
> I can understand if he didn't.
> He probably thought I was messing around.
> Over the whole two rounds he only managed to tap me three of four times, while I kept on tipping him and tapping him to get him out of the way.
> If he wanted me to stand still then he should have said so at the beginning, but then I wouldn't have been all that keen to get in the ring with him, even though the money was good.


Well that just seals it - Duran couldn't handle movers.

@Hands of Iron, I know you're shocked, stunned and in tears.
@dyna, you were right all along.
@Powerpuncher, avi time finally?


----------



## Lester1583

The Master and his Pupil:





MMA predecessors:





@Powerpuncher
@Bill Jincock
@Chinny


----------



## Powerpuncher

Lester1583 said:


> Bomber Graham on sparring Duran:
> 
> Well that just seals it - Duran couldn't handle movers.
> 
> @Hands of Iron, I know you're shocked, stunned and in tears.
> @dyna, you were right all along.
> @Powerpuncher, avi time finally?


Beautiful


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> @Powerpuncher, avi time finally?


If this wasn't good enough, nothing gonna be.

http://checkhookboxing.com/index.ph...do-at-154-160-today.83707/page-3#post-2464913


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> The sun is shining
> The weather is sweet
> Chavezito is rigid
> My belly is jiggly


Chavez wasn't rigid strictly speaking.

Never veering from the perfect textbookness, but not confined by it, unlike Curry.

I know were trying to say this but your deep southern accent let you down once again, rainbow cajun.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> Chavez wasn't rigid strictly speaking.
> 
> Never veering from the perfect textbookness, but not confined by it, unlike Curry.
> 
> I know were trying to say this but your deep southern accent let you down once again, rainbow cajun.


Nah, he isn't rigid in general just for the instance of the guys he was being compared to. He isn't a tier below overall either, just in terms of offense / defense integration although I guess the former is arguable depending on how people 'tier'. This place has no respect for Jose though. None. Rate Griffith higher. Just No.


----------



## dyna

Fuck offense/defence integration when you can just clinch and go back on the attack post break


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> WBF is a morgue.
> Historical is a cemetery.


Imagine how LMR feels.

You can't cuz you don't know shit about him.

But just try to.


----------



## Hands of Iron

dyna said:


> Fuck offense/defence integration when you can just clinch and go back on the attack post break


Aestheticskill. Dooran actually did that fairly often as well.



Lester1583 said:


> Imagine how LMR feels.
> 
> You can't cuz you don't know shit about him.
> 
> But just try to.


I know. Everything always comes before him. I never put him first. He never gets his place. He's like my ex in that sense, and he's full of shit.


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


> Boxing over Bitches.


But don't box your bitches. PP may need to find a permanent landing in here now, the lizards are unrelenting. I forgave him the same day, bewildered as I still am. @turbotime has successfully executed the shoulder roll against raging native girls, I think he said once.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Manliness above everything


----------



## Hands of Iron

Lester1583 said:


>


The impact that scene had on me as a little boy seeing it for the first time was life-shaping stuff. Dutch was the epitome of Alpha, 40 years young, and that's Arnold's greatest performance ever by far. Not for "Get To Da Choppa!" type laughs, but the understated subtlety of most everything else, also one of the more 'human' and mortal characters he ever played. I'll always adore that film, and it's fucking quality Sci-Fi Action Horror fare on the whole. 1987, baby. That red polo is still the shit too.


----------



## Hands of Iron




----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Arnold's greatest performance ever by far.












The soundtrack alone improves your bench by 50 pounds.

There's Leone's westerns and there's the rest.

There's Conan and there's the rest.

The most metal movie ever.



Hands of Iron said:


> Not for "Get To Da Choppa!" type laughs


The second part where Arnold is alone shits all over any of method acting clowns.

Foreman-Frazier-like tour de force.



Hands of Iron said:


> it's fucking quality Sci-Fi Action Horror fare on the whole


A perfect movie.

It's like a prime Chavez - complete.

Does't mean it can't be beat but you get what I'm saying.

Very few movies/albums like it - GnR' debut, Re-Animator 1985, Sarcofago's INRI, Whitaker-Haugen, etc.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> - Tell him he inspires me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - The Golden God worships you, Nicolino.
> - Grazie, Toldo.


Can a defensive specialist be causal-friendly?

Can a negative fighter be positive?

Can a balding middle-aged woodcarver be a sex symbol?

Can someone become an ATG without throwing a punch?

Can a foreigner be a national hero?

The first few seconds:





Wembley Stadium atmosphere?
Weak as their hooligans.

Morocho was a huge puncher, by the way - just check out the list of fighters he stopped/knocked down.

The Fuji vitruvian masteriece hasn't been rivaled, before or since.

Whitaker, Pep, Griffo, Toney, Merqui, Benitez and so on and so on.

All of them are nothing.

Nothing compared to Him.


----------



## Lester1583

For all of his mind-boggling over-the-top defensive elusiveness, how textbook Locche actually was.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> Patrizio's triumph, Da Suck's shame.
> Kalambay getting interviewed by Franco Nero:


Kalambay, surprisingly enough, wasn't the most popular fighter in Italy.

Aside from the obvious native italians like Marvino Haglerotti, there were others who overshadowed Sumbu.

Nino La Rocca _(one of Lora's favourite fighters)_ was one of them.

A flashy lightning fast Ali-influenced welterweight whom some might remember from his loss to prime Donald Curry.
Which catapulted Lone Star Cobra to the top of every P4P list.

La Rocca's promoter:


> La Rocca was critized by some journalists who never liked him; the reasons are beyond me. I'm sure that the American readers never heard of Nino La Rocca, so I will tell them his history. La Rocca was born in Mali (Africa), but lived and fought in Italy where he got the citizenship. He spoke Italian and performed well in front of the tv cameras. He had also a happy-go-lucky attitude and the people loved him. Among his fans, there was President Pertini. In the early 1980s, Nino La Rocca was as popular as the soccer players. After Nino lost to WBA/IBF welterweight champion Donald Curry (KO 6), those journalists who never liked La Rocca wrote that he was a total joke. They forgot that, in 1986, Donald Curry was at his best and nobody had a chance against him


La Rocca built an epic record of 56 (42)-0 with wins over fringe contenders and veterans like Ranzany, Bobby Joe (the guy that beat Pryor), Volbrecht, etc, before suffering the freak loss on cuts.
The loss was akin to Danny Romero's loss to a journeyman.
Both were smack in their primes, very popular and highly touted.
Both were winning their fights, fought bravely and didn't embarrass themselves.
But both got cut early and eventually lost cuz of that.

In other words, La Rocca was basically undefeated coming into the Curry fight.

Alas, Curry's deadly jheri curl was too much for Nino to handle.

He lost and became just a footnote in boxing history.

But our children... our children will remember









Here's a trailer of La Rocca's documentary which looks serious and somber:





On a side note, Curry-La Rocca is concrete proof that Tyson would always beat Ali.


----------



## Lester1583

Hands of Iron said:


> - Digging my Jack Johnson pants?


An interesting tidbit from La Rocca's promoter about Toney fighting in Monaco:



> In Monaco I promoted IBF middleweight champion James Toney vs. Francesco Dell'Aquila in 1991. Francesco was a good boxer who compiled a record of 31-1-2 and had won the Italian and European middleweight titles.We didn't think much of Toney, even if his record was 27-0-1 and he had beaten Michael Nunn (TKO 11). Instead, Toney made short work of Dell'Aquila (TKO 4). We understood Francesco's limits, but we never imagined that Toney would have had such a great career.


----------



## dyna

Toney never looked ripped, always either fat or bordering skinny fat.
Maybe hyperbole, at least closer to skinny fat than a ripped Roy.


----------



## Lester1583

Obelmejias - Chong-Pal are the flukest losses evah.


----------



## PityTheFool

Lester1583 said:


> The soundtrack alone improves your bench by 50 pounds.
> 
> There's Leone's westerns and there's the rest.
> 
> There's Conan and there's the rest.
> 
> The most metal movie ever.
> 
> The second part where Arnold is alone shits all over any of method acting clowns.
> 
> Foreman-Frazier-like tour de force.
> 
> A perfect movie.
> 
> It's like a prime Chavez - complete.
> 
> Does't mean it can't be beat but you get what I'm saying.
> 
> Very few movies/albums like it - GnR' debut, Re-Animator 1985, Sarcofago's INRI, Whitaker-Haugen, etc.


What about Hercules Goes To New York?


----------



## Lester1583

PityTheFool said:


> What about Hercules Goes To New York?


Like Froch's debut.

No promise.


----------



## Pedderrs

Hercules in New York is Arnie's masterpiece as far as I'm concerned.

Lester isn't an authority on anything other than how to be a fuckin' contrarian. Fuck him.

Some of his best quotes are from Hercules in New York.






It's definitely Arnie's Citizen Kane, or his Lionheart.


----------



## Lester1583

Powerpuncher said:


>


Rise up from hell.

Floyd Sr - Starling 2:





The sound of Joy Boy's punches is terrifying.

Starling proves why he would slap TBE to death on the inside.

Winky - Moochie would resurrect D'Amato.

115-112? Good one.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> - Please accept this modest gift as a token of respect. Marvino Haglerotti acknowledges your infinite superiority.


Watching Chong-Pal lose to Obel is like watching Shredder die.

So unfair.


----------



## tommygun711

Lester1583 said:


> Watching Chong-Pal lose to Obel is like watching Shredder die.
> 
> So unfair.


Youre gonna have to accept that it wasnt just a stylistic thing.

Obel would have KOd park every time. better fighter


----------



## Lester1583

tommygun711 said:


> Youre gonna have to accept that it wasnt just a stylistic thing.
> 
> Obel would have KOd park every time. better fighter


----------



## Lester1583

Montell was an interesting fighter.

Not cuz of the Jones fights only.

Qawi's mutation gone wrong.

Very awkward, reflexive but decently schooled, adept at fighting both offensively and defensively.

A high-level spoiler who wants to win.

Don't think he would fare well against good technical aggressive fighters whose main objective was to ko an opponent.

Didn't have the chin, nor wasn't strong or elusive enough.

But the fighters with a measured approach, boxer-types, those that give you time to think - Griffin would do well against plenty of them.
Would make most of them look unconvincing, at least.

Not a "champion in another era" material, more like an unpopular titlist with questionable decisions, if he was, say, from Germany.

The elusive Ray "Lethal" Lathon fight wasn't bad at all - think a prime Montell vs a less dynamic version of Frankie Liles.

For no reason at all, but I know that somebody out there is smiling right now:


----------



## Lester1583

If only they had never met.

Would have been so tempting&satisfying to favor Gavilan in hypotheticals.

Fucking Robinson.

@Hands of Iron


----------



## Lester1583

That Bugatti Tackie gave his all versus a much greater fighter, it makes Clottey's effort versus Pacquiao even more pathetic.

Kostya in boxing mode.

So rare, so inspirational.


----------



## Lester1583

It's not about skills, speed, adjustments and other boring crap.

It's about legendness.

And this fight epitomizes everything that is ridiculeasome about boxing:






No commentary, no hype, no mainstream.

Only telegraphed punches, Larry Hazzard's tight pants and a stranger than paradise ending.

@Cableaddict
@Zopilote
@LittleRed
@dyna
@Axe Murderer


----------



## Tage_West

daisuke naito winning a world title at the 3rd attempt against the same man who battered him twice. when he was in his 30's.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> It's not about skills, speed, adjustments and other boring crap.
> 
> It's about legendness.
> 
> And this fight epitomizes everything that is ridiculeasome about boxing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No commentary, no hype, no mainstream.
> 
> Only telegraphed punches, Larry Hazzard's tight pants and a stranger than paradise ending.
> 
> @Cableaddict
> @Zopilote
> @LittleRed
> @dyna
> @Axe Murderer


This fight proved that super middleweight was a legit division even if technically it was contested at cruiserweight.


----------



## turbotime

Hands of Iron said:


> But don't box your bitches. PP may need to find a permanent landing in here now, the lizards are unrelenting. I forgave him the same day, bewildered as I still am. @turbotime has successfully executed the shoulder roll against raging native girls, I think he said once.


White, Native and Persian.

Maybe I'm the real cunt here :lol:


----------



## Lester1583

WDFI CervanteS defeats apartheid:


----------



## Lester1583

Jazzy Jeff's Top 10 greatest defensive fighters:



> 1. Floyd Mayweather
> 2. Pernell Whitaker
> 3. Michael Nunn
> 4. Mark Johnson
> 5. Muhammad Ali
> 6. Marlon Starling
> 7. Wilfred Benitez
> 8. Chris Byrd
> 9. Willie Pep
> 10. Celestino Caballero.


Do not conform.


----------



## Lester1583

Un momento dramatico:









Un momento historico:


----------



## Lester1583

Different times, different people:









@Phantom


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Me in pre-season:


Egerton Marcus was considered the hardest 175 puncher in 1994.

"Who?" You may ask.

That's exactly what Reichsmarschall Maske said when he sent this unworthy creature back to Bieberland.

Humiliated but alive.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Un momento dramatico:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Un momento historico:


Thanks for this Lester...Monzon had an incredible chin & resilience.....this was a defining moment IMO.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Different times, different people:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Phantom


I was hugely interested in their 2 fights....being a life long, huge Monzon fan, I was also in awe of Valdez...a black panther with gloves.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


>


Henry Maske vs Sven Ottke Amateur Fight:





Such overwhelmingly deep euro textbookness.
Such omnipenetrating whiteness.
Such hard powerful clinches.

Ottke rocking dat Rudi Völler look.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> .


This was all I saw.
Pure manliness


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Robinson-*****
> That one-legged jab.


One-legged uppercut from Pryor.

Only roided-up-to-the-eyeballs Pac managed to repeat it.


----------



## Tage_West

Canadian and Quebec boxing legend Alain Bonamie after hanging up the gloves gets signed for a semi-pro 3rd division hockey team....and promply gets licked


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Un momento dramatico:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Un momento historico:


I believe that had it been any other...or most any other middle champ in there with BB at that moment, that Bennie would have won the title. It was unfortunate for Briscoe to have Monzon in the ring with him ...with that chin and recuperative powers...and cleverness... that few in boxing history have had. Monzon was a hard man.


----------



## Lester1583

Mosley's bench press:


> Q: Do you think the weightlifting has slowed you down any,
> and how much of it do you actually do? Is it true you can bench-press 315
> pounds?
> 
> A: I dont really do any weight lifting while getting ready for a
> fight; however on my off time I really enjoy hitting the weights and playing
> basketball. The basketball keeps me limber and in great shape. I think the
> weightlifting actually increases my speed rather than decreasing it.
> Yes, I did bench 315, I did it once, but only when I'm at 155 or 160 when I go back down
> to 147 I can max about 295.


@Bogotazo
@Hands of Iron


----------



## Lester1583

Bogotazo said:


>


The Mosley-Forrest rematch is hard to watch.

It's not a pretty fight.

Ugly, lotsa clinches, few punches.

Forrest fought a spoilerish Klychko-like fight - barely watchable but effective.

But you can see how mentally exhausting this fight was for Mosley.

He tried, he really tried.

Changed his game plan, was willing to mix it up, no pathetic handshakes.

Just couldn't overcome Forrest's stylistical advantages.

It's a well-know fact but still.
How quickly did he deteriorate.

By the time of the second fight he was already on his way to becoming a one-punch at a time/no body punches/half-flat-footed limited slugger.

People rarely return to this fight - it's actually was very close - Merchant's scorecard (draw) wasn't outrageous at all.

But the judges saw it differently - Mosley lost.

And thus ended his quest for greatness.


----------



## Bogotazo

Lester1583 said:


> The Mosley-Forrest rematch is hard to watch.
> 
> It's not a pretty fight.
> 
> Ugly, lotsa clinches, few punches.
> 
> Forrest fought a spoilerish Klychko-like fight - barely watchable but effective.
> 
> But you can see how mentally exhausting this fight was for Mosley.
> 
> He tried, he really tried.
> 
> Changed his game plan, was willing to mix it up, no pathetic handshakes.
> 
> Just couldn't overcome Forrest's stylistical advantages.
> 
> It's a well-know fact but still.
> How quickly did he deteriorate.
> 
> By the time of the second fight he was already on his way to becoming a one-punch at a time/no body punches/half-flat-footed limited slugger.
> 
> People rarely return to this fight - it's actually was very close - Merchant's scorecard (draw) wasn't outrageous at all.
> 
> But the judges saw it differently - Mosley lost.
> 
> And thus ended his quest for greatness.


I don't think I'll ever watch it again. The biggest thing I noticed was Mosley's competitive edge going. As Floyd would put it, after that fight, "losing was in his mind."


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


>


Gil Clancy had H.Johnson in his Top 10.

Gil knew.


----------



## Lester1583

Bogotazo said:


> I don't think I'll ever watch it again.


If you ever find yourself in the mood for a visually striking french gay art movie, watch Benitez-Villa.

It's as aesthetic and mesmerizingly technical.

Also proves that Benitez ducked Kalule.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Gil Clancy had H.Johnson in his Top 10.
> 
> Gil knew.


I never believed in love at first sight till I saw Harold Johnson.


----------



## Lester1583

There was a time when I used to dance:


----------



## Lester1583

Galindez talks about Bob Foster:





@Vic, stop moping, start translating.
Girls come and go, but boxing is eternal, my fake brazilian friend.

And you gotta give credit where credit is due.
Fans rave about Monzon's coolness, but Galindez here looks like a south american dictator, ready to wage war against capitalists pigs.

@dyna
@Phantom


----------



## Lester1583

A young hot-headed Galindez in a wild fight:





Forgotten contenders from the underrated obscure argentinian golden era:

Pre-Clancy Ahumada vs Avenamar Peralta:





Juan Aguilar in action - Aguilar is the one who crouches:




His record is insane, by the way - the boxrec page alone KO's Canelo through the ropes.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Gil Clancy had H.Johnson in his Top 10.
> 
> Gil knew.


The Magnificent Harold Johnson.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> A young hot-headed Galindez in a wild fight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forgotten contenders from the underrated obscure argentinian golden era:
> 
> Pre-Clancy Ahumada vs Avenamar Peralta:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Juan Aguiar in action - Aguilar is the one who crouches:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His record is insane, by the way - the boxrec page alone KO's Canelo through the ropes.


Galindez, Ahumada, Aguilar,.....thank you for the Argentine connection sir! I've always been tuned in to Monzon, Locche, Galindez, Ahumada, Peralta....et al.:bbb


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Galindez talks about Bob Foster:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Vic, stop moping, start translating.
> Girls come and go, but boxing is eternal, my fake brazilian friend.
> 
> And you gotta give credit where credit is due.
> Fans rave about Monzon's collness, but Galindez here looks like a south american dictator, ready to wage war against capitalists pigs.
> 
> @dyna
> @Phantom


All he needed was the Cohiba.
...I wish I spoke Spanish.


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> Galindez, Ahumada, Aguilar,.....thank you for the Argentine connection sir! I've always been tuned in to Monzon, Locche, Galindez, Ahumada, Peralta....et al.:bbb


Tough, stylish and unconventional.

Argentinian boxing rules.

14 minutes of prime Locche - the last defense of the Argentina (FAB) Lightweight title - 1965:




Philly shell, my ass.


----------



## Lester1583

"He rides his motorcycle through the streets of the city.
They call him the Animal."
At 3:18:





Looks like a badass 70's euro-crime movie trailer.

@Boggle


----------



## Vic

@Lester1583
Fuck, he was really going to fight Foster. The guy actually says it was done for Abril 21. The rest he says those same things fighters always say.. "I feell good, strong..." "I´m in the best moment of my life" whatever


----------



## Boogle McDougal

Lester1583 said:


> "He rides his motorcycle through the streets of the city.
> They call him the Animal."
> At 3:18:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a badass 70's euro-crime movie trailer.
> 
> @Boggle


That was awesome. All it needed was some music by Stelvio Cipriani. That part where he was chopping wood reminded me of a similar scene with Bronson in Death Wish II :lol:


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> "He rides his motorcycle through the streets of the city.
> They call him the Animal."
> At 3:18:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a badass 70's euro-crime movie trailer.
> 
> @Boggle


Yeah, i saw that live on Wide World O' Sports on one of those hallowed afternoons back in the Golden Age...I thought it was cool that they used Gerry Rafferty's opening sax theme of "Baker Street"...that suited the badass image of Galindez that they were aiming for...but then, Galindez *was* a badass...great fight...I enjoyed both Galindez-Rossman fights a lot BTW. Victor may have been a bit overtrained maybe? It's confusing because Cosell was going on about Victor's gruelling training routine, whereas the usual excuses for his loss to Rossman was that he was "undertrained"...I dunno.
There's a picture or two out there in cyberspace Lester,...grab it if you ever find it. It shows Monzon and Galindez together touring the streets of Paris...they both are wearing sunglasses and the both look positively _*evil *_glaring at the papparazzi...you wouldn't want to cross either one of these guys based on that picture.


----------



## Lester1583

Boggle said:


> That was awesome. All it needed was some music by Stelvio Cipriani. That part where he was chopping wood reminded me of a similar scene with Bronson in Death Wish II :lol:


Or something by Franco Micalizzi.

Can totally see Galindez armed to the teeth - terrorizing Rome, shooting ruthlessly innocent people and defiling women.

Silent killer in black.

But who's behind all of this?

Who can stop him?

Why are police doing nothing?

Maurizio Merli is going to find out.


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> you wouldn't want to cross either one of these guys based on that picture.


Don't know, P.

They look like pretty fun guys to hang out to me:









By the way.

Only 2 pictures.

But tell you so much:


----------



## Boogle McDougal

Lester1583 said:


> Or something by Franco Micalizzi.
> 
> Can totally see Galindez armed to the teeth - terrorizing Rome, shooting ruthlessly innocent people and defiling women.
> 
> Silent killer in black.
> 
> But who's behind all of this?
> 
> Who can stop him?
> 
> Why are police doing nothing?
> 
> Maurizio Merli is going to find out.


I love you.

I can totally see Galindez in the parts played by Tomas Milian.

El Banda De Galindez!
starring!
Maurizio Merli
Henry Silva
Victor Conte
Barbara Bouchet
and Femi Benussi

special appearance by Victor Galindez as The Hunchback!

"He's a sick and depraved rapist. A bloodthirsty homicidal killer... and that's him on a good day..."


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Don't know, P.
> 
> They look like pretty fun guys to hang out to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way.
> 
> Only 2 pictures.
> 
> But tell you so much:


Murderous duo they were...in the b/w pic with the sunglasses in Paris, you'd think you were looking at high level Mafia assassins. that middle picture must have been Monzon fresh from winning the title by executing Benvenuti. Monzon had an Ayatollah Khomeini-type funeral, didn't he?


----------



## Phantom

Many thanks Lester!!


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> @Lester1583
> Fuck, he was really going to fight Foster. The guy actually says it was done for Abril 21. The rest he says those same things fighters always say.. "I feell good, strong..." "I´m in the best moment of my life" whatever


Thanks, Vic.

That's not the first time I hear about old Foster missing out his challenges.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Thanks, Vic.
> 
> That's not the first time I hear about old Foster missing out his challenges.


I think that, considering how Ahumada did with Foster (Jorge won that fight) a meeting with Vic Galindez would have been a disaster for Bob.


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> I think that, considering how Ahumada did with Foster (Jorge won that fight) a meeting with Vic Galindez would have been a disaster for Bob.


The Finnegan fight was the last time Foster looked formidable at light heavy.

By the time the Galindez fight fell through, he was there for the taking.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> The Finnegan fight was the last time Foster looked formidable at light heavy.
> 
> By the time the Galindez fight fell through, he was there for the taking.


It would have been a huge mistake if Foster fought Galindez....a hometown draw wouldn't have been a possibility.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


>


Oscar and his stogie!:bbb


----------



## dyna

OLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKSAAAAAAANNNNNDRRRRRRRRRR USSSSSSSSSYYYYYYYYYKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

The greatest sounds flat, how about the living god?


----------



## dyna

4th IBF cruiserweight title fight, and the most epic finish of all championship bouts of all time.

Unsung war with an ending so epic a 3 year old got a beard from it.


----------



## Lester1583

Vysotsky said:


>


The setting of the Sun.

Head coach tells Igor Vysotsky that he isn't going to the Olympics.

At 3:57- no subs are necessary:


----------



## Vysotsky

Lester1583 said:


> The setting of the Sun.
> 
> Head coach tells Igor Vysotsky that he isn't going to the Olympics.
> 
> At 3:57- no subs are necessary:


That's insane.


----------



## Vysotsky

@Flea Man Question about Dieselnoi. I know that for 3 or 4 years circa 80-84 he didn't defend his belt, or rarely, due to nobody wanting to face him aside from the living god Samart and his only real fights were representing Thailand in international competition against guys from other disciplines but...what's the deal with Sakad during this time? I'v read Sakad went 2-1 against him and assume he went back to Muay Thai after losing to Gomez in 78 so that's a perfect timeline for him being around during the era Dieselnoi was getting shut out.

- Did they fight pre Sakad's first boxing run (before 77) at 125 or below or did they face off during the 78-84 years? 
- What weight classes did Dieselnoi start out at and go through during his run or was he always 135?
- Why wasn't there more public clamoring for them to face each other?
- If Sakad going 2-1 is accurate how come it seems like fans don't regard him as being on Dieselnoi's level of greatness? Seems like Samart, Dieselnoi, everyone else.


----------



## Vysotsky

Lester1583 said:


> Domovoy troubles


Aside from Ageev, Vysotsky, Yagubkin, Nazarov, Romanchuk can you think of any other beasts that through circumstance, injuries, outside the ring bullshit didn't get the opportunity to compete on the big stage. Yagubkin missed out on the Olympics during his prime because of the 84 boycott but any idea why he didn't go to the 88 Olympics? He won the 87 Nationals beating Miroshnichenko in the finals but doesn't show him in 88?


----------



## Flea Man

Vysotsky said:


> @Flea Man Question about Dieselnoi. I know that for 3 or 4 years circa 80-84 he didn't defend his belt, or rarely, due to nobody wanting to face him aside from the living god Samart and his only real fights were representing Thailand in international competition against guys from other disciplines but...what's the deal with Sakad during this time? I'v read Sakad went 2-1 against him and assume he went back to Muay Thai after losing to Gomez in 78 so that's a perfect timeline for him being around during the era Dieselnoi was getting shut out.
> 
> - Did they fight pre Sakad's first boxing run (before 77) at 125 or below or did they face off during the 78-84 years?
> - What weight classes did Dieselnoi start out at and go through during his run or was he always 135?
> - Why wasn't there more public clamoring for them to face each other?
> - If Sakad going 2-1 is accurate how come it seems like fans don't regard him as being on Dieselnoi's level of greatness? Seems like Samart, Dieselnoi, everyone else.


Dieselnoi is the casuals choice mate. He's well known (for MT) and of course has that Monzon-esque aura about him.

Sakad did go 2-1, with at least one of those wins by KO.

Sakad fought above 125 even in his prime. I think Dieselnoi was always around 130-135, but Sakad was a tank and at least a 'natural' 140lber.

A tidbit: Charles Atkinson told me that Sakad was without a doubt the hardest puncher he ever worked with. Said in Thailand he was almost a Tyson-esque figure (before Kid Dynamite of course)

Dieselnoi did fight in Thailand at that time, but no real worthy contenders. There weren't too many Thais around that size then, the golden era for 135-140lbers was just before Dieselnoi (such as Poot Lorlek and Saensak)


----------



## Flea Man

Oh, and of course Sakad fought legit fighters from other disciplines, often bigger than himself. I'd say he's greater than Dieselnoi, though of course in MT it's even harder than boxing to make a definitive list other than Samart at no.1 (some would say Saenchai now but not me)


----------



## Flea Man

Oh, and Dieselnoi is of course one of the greats. Arguably the greatest clinch fighter of all time. I've heard rumours in the past that he tried boxing but got sparked out, but can't back that up.


----------



## Vysotsky

Flea Man said:


> Dieselnoi is the casuals choice mate. He's well known (for MT) and of course has that Monzon-esque aura about him.
> 
> Sakad did go 2-1, with at least one of those wins by KO.
> 
> Sakad fought above 125 even in his prime. I think Dieselnoi was always around 130-135, but Sakad was a tank and at least a 'natural' 140lber.
> 
> A tidbit: Charles Atkinson told me that Sakad was without a doubt the hardest puncher he ever worked with. Said in Thailand he was almost a Tyson-esque figure (before Kid Dynamite of course)
> 
> Dieselnoi did fight in Thailand at that time, but no real worthy contenders. There weren't too many Thais around that size then, the golden era for 135-140lbers was just before Dieselnoi (such as Poot Lorlek and Saensak)


So if that's the case why didn't they fight more especially during the period Dieselnoi couldn't get opponents? Also when did their fights take place pre 77 or during 79-84?

Also what are Sakad's actual MT accomplishments, how many stadium titles, weightclasses, etc?

Did Saensek and Sakad ever fight? They were similar weight and eras.


----------



## Lester1583

Vysotsky said:


> Aside from Ageev, Vysotsky, Yagubkin, Nazarov, Romanchuk can you think of any other beasts that through circumstance, injuries, outside the ring bullshit didn't get the opportunity to compete on the big stage.


With a talent pool so large, such things were unavoidable.










Like for example, the big guy standing in the center.

He was a part of Soviet heavyweights' golden era.

Viktor Ulyanych (Виктор Ульянич).

The most experienced USSR's heavyweight ever with a 303-15 record.

Beat many champions and more decorated teammates but was largely known as the head coach of the Russian Armed Forced.

Was involved in an epic double KO fight with Piotr Zaev, among other things.
@dyna

Injuries and bad luck stopped him from achieving more.

Here's a lengthy interesting interview with Ulyanych in russian:
http://fightnews.ru/content/viktor-...-chem-dam-komu-povod-obvinit-menya-v-trusosti
@Flea Man can google translate it for you in exchange for Samart's greatest hits album.

And here's a documentary on him.
In russian again:





9:10 - Recognize this old fellah?

9:38 - Ulyanych in action.

13:27 - Ulyanych and the guy he beat twice.

Have you heard of Anatoly Greiner's (Анатолий Грейнер) reign of beautiful terror?



Vysotsky said:


> Yagubkin missed out on the Olympics during his prime because of the 84 boycott but any idea why he didn't go to the 88 Olympics? He won the 87 Nationals beating Miroshnichenko in the finals but doesn't show him in 88?


Yagubkin apparently could've competed at the 80 Olympics but got vetoed due to his age, even though he was already better than Zaev.

He retired shortly before the 88 Olympics due to boxing politics - hence no Olympics at all for the only soviet world amateur heavyweight champion.

And where's your 10-page essay on Oleg Korotaev, by the way?
The world needs it.


----------



## Flea Man

Vysotsky said:


> So if that's the case why didn't they fight more especially during the period Dieselnoi couldn't get opponents? Also when did their fights take place pre 77 or during 79-84?
> 
> Also what are Sakad's actual MT accomplishments, how many stadium titles, weightclasses, etc?
> 
> Did Saensek and Sakad ever fight? They were similar weight and eras.


Here you are mate. Gomez was the only man to stop him! As for weight, he says he fought at 140, but maybe he's just mentioning his last or preferred weight, I know he fought lower as well

http://www.siamfightmag.com/en/muay...ythai-en/thai-boxers-en/265-sagat-petchyindee


----------



## Lester1583

.


----------



## dyna

.


----------



## Vysotsky

.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> .





dyna said:


> .





Vysotsky said:


> .


...


----------



## Lester1583

Axe Murderer said:


> - Never go full Floyd.


Extract from Corpus Intocablecum:


> Question: What's your best punch?
> 
> Gustavo Ballas: I can't punch. Just watch me box.


----------



## Axe Murderer

Lester1583 said:


> Extract from Corpus Intocablecum:


Ballas had some "El Intocable" like moves.

He was a more Tocable verson of Locche.

Very underrated defensive fighter.


----------



## Sweet Pea

Ballas reminded me more of a little Galindez. Then again, Galindez slipped pretty seamlessly between brawler and cutie himself. Underrated defensively in his own right.


----------



## Axe Murderer

Speaking of lesser known defensive cuties heres the Puerto Rican Lora....






Not bad for a bootleg ...:yep


----------



## Sweet Pea

Callejas was more Rosario to me, or maybe an inverted Lora (more centered around power than defensive skill). Probably not as stiff as Rosario. Great KO, that one.


----------



## dyna

Fuck me.

Just rewatched Mavrovic-Lewis.

How do I even begin to describe that punch resistance.

Nearing the end of round 7, I wanted to explain but a gif works better.


http://imgur.com/id%3Da%252FWjblO%3Btype%3Dalbum


No buckle, no knockdown, nothing.
Just a jump backwards.

But it all makes sense once you learn he's vegetarian, they're just naturally thick headed.


----------



## dyna




----------



## Lester1583

Sweet Pea said:


> Slickology





Axe Murderer said:


>


Inverted Lora is an apt comparison.

Callejas didn't look like your typical non-descript splinter champ.

He also wasn't as slick as he looked.

Was better when you gave him time and space - wasn't that flashy under pressure.

Was susceptible to elbows too, as Fenech proved.

The Stecca 2 KO is one of the best left hooks ever indeed.

Seung-Hoon Lee was a real fighter - not much talent but plenty of heart.


----------



## Lester1583

Hard to believe it but there was a time:





@Bogotazo


----------



## Bogotazo

Lester1583 said:


> Hard to believe it but there was a time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bogotazo


Yesss


----------



## Lester1583

Why do I watch the dawn?






@Flea Man 
@LittleRed


----------



## Lester1583

Legra The Magnificent:





Dat movement, guys, dat bebop movement.
@bballchump11 
@Bogotazo 
@Kid Cubano 
@Rigondeaux


----------



## dyna

Hopkins - Mercado


Imagine if it was Golovkin who got dropped that hard.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Imagine if it was Golovkin who got dropped that hard.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Why do I watch the dawn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Flea Man
> @LittleRed


Had this for a while.

I have Muangsurin vs Mamby and Brooks too :yep


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> I have Muangsurin vs Mamby and Brooks too


Should've posted short reports at least, Klompton jr.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Should've posted short reports at least, Klompton jr.


:lol: It was with Klompton that I purchased the footage (we went in on it together)

Hence the lack of sharing on my part.

Then again, I can rest easy knowing I purchased and shared Orzubek vs Thobela II.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


>


Metaphor of Golovkin's legacy, Bballchump being the prime murderer.


----------



## Lester1583

One of these guys was a middleweight:


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> One of these guys was a middleweight:


Galindez clearly has much thicker legs and his chest is thicker too.


----------



## Lester1583

Bogotazo said:


>


Have you seen Hop-Joe Lipsey, Bogo?

It's Hop's best KO and probaby his second best prime performance versus a credible _(at the time of the fight)_ opponent.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Bogotazo

Lester1583 said:


> Have you seen Hop-Joe Lipsey, Bogo?
> 
> It's Hop's best KO and probaby his second best prime performance versus a credible _(at the time of the fight)_ opponent.


Don't know if I have. I'll get on it.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Have you seen Hop-Joe Lipsey, Bogo?
> 
> It's Hop's best KO and probaby his second best prime performance versus a credible _(at the time of the fight)_ opponent.


What fight do you rate as his best prime performance?
Glen Johnson?


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> What fight do you rate as his best prime performance?
> Glen Johnson?


Yup.

Up there with Mayweather-Corrales and the like.

Everything that was great about prime Hop is in that fight.


----------



## Kid Cubano

Lester1583 said:


> Legra The Magnificent:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dat movement, guys, dat bebop movement.
> @bballchump11
> @Bogotazo
> @Kid Cubano
> @Rigondeaux


i remember my uncle praising Legra who he believed was one of the best cubans pro ever. But i haven't seen much of him.


----------



## Axe Murderer

Flea Man said:


> :lol: It was with Klompton that I purchased the footage (we went in on it together)
> 
> Hence the lack of sharing on my part.
> 
> Then again, I can rest easy knowing I purchased and shared Orzubek vs Thobela II.


Your YT channell is one of the best .

Too bad it seems like you've retired from uploading.

But cheers for all the stuff you've shared with us :good


----------



## Axe Murderer

The GOAT.






I Bet he was one of the fighters Toney used to study.


----------



## Flea Man

Axe Murderer said:


> Your YT channell is one of the best .
> 
> Too bad it seems like you've retired from uploading.
> 
> But cheers for all the stuff you've shared with us :good


There will be more :good


----------



## Axe Murderer

Flea Man said:


> There will be more :good


:happy:happy:happy


----------



## Lester1583

Kid Cubano said:


> i remember my uncle praising Legra who he believed was one of the best cubans pro ever. But i haven't seen much of him.


The first four - Gavilan, Napoles, El Feo, Kid Chocolate - are pretty much untouchable.

But you can make a case for Legra being P4P#5 Cuban pro.

More importantly, he was so interesting to watch.

You can't go wrong with any of his available fights.

Arguello-Legra is still one of the most confusing and impressive results on paper.


----------



## Lester1583

Axe Murderer said:


> The GOAT.


Would fight both GGG and Kovalev in a span of one month.

Henry Hank spells M-A-N.


----------



## Kid Cubano

Lester1583 said:


> The first four - Gavilan, Napoles, El Feo, Kid Chocolate - are pretty much untouchable.
> 
> But you can make a case for Legra being P4P#5 Cuban pro.
> 
> More importantly, he was so interesting to watch.
> 
> You can't go wrong with any of his available fights.
> 
> Arguello-Legra is still one of the most confusing and impressive results on paper.


Agreed with the 4 mosqueteros.
Legra is there with Kid Tunero, Ramos. Good boxers.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Why do I watch the dawn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Flea Man
> @LittleRed


Saensak makes me think that Ketchel could win a title.

If you can fight you can fight.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Saensak makes me think that Ketchel could win a title.


Saensak makes me think of many things.

Most of them are of sensual nature.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Saensak makes me think of many things.
> 
> Most of them are of sensual nature.


Some people like it rough and dirty...


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> - Will I ever reach Finito's greatness?


One of Boomsong's many names was

Collapse World Southpaw.


----------



## Lester1583

The resemblance is uncanny:
















Coincidence?

Don't think so.

@Flea Man


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> The resemblance is uncanny:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coincidence?
> 
> Don't think so.
> 
> @Flea Man


This thread was made for the manliest men.

Here are the two manliest men that ever walked the Earth.


----------



## Lester1583

LoveWarLove


----------



## dyna

I finally did it


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> I finally did it


It was worth the wait.

@Flea Man undress yourself now - we've got a surprise for you.


----------



## Lester1583

The mysterious Ural Squall in action:




Merciless but mercyful.


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> I enjoyed both Galindez-Rossman fights a lot BTW. Victor may have been a bit overtrained maybe? It's confusing because Cosell was going on about Victor's gruelling training routine, whereas the usual excuses for his loss to Rossman was that he was "undertrained"...I dunno.


Same here, P.

Good fights indeed.

Wouldn't say the undertraining/overtraining excuse was the only reason Galindez lost, as he was clearly on the slide by the time the Rossman fights took place.

But, yes, Galindez did look unusually bad in the first fight.

Lost to an underrated fighter though.

Rossman was a pretty solid fighter.
Just got lost in the shuffle.
So strong and colorful was that light heavyweight era.

For a fighter that had such an upright stance that suggested the predictable one-two only style he wasn't that stiff nor limited.

Very good jab, good power, classic straight punching but coupled with well-schooled hooks, wasn't useless on the inside, above average handspeed and fairly durable.

A bit methodical and needed time to really let his hands go.

All in all the greatest jewish fighter since Joe Louistein.

Have you seen Rossman's comeback win against Al Bolden, by the way?
Worth a look if you're a fan of that era, and I know you're.



Bogotazo said:


> - What do you mean Who Da Fuck Is Cervantes?


Galindez - Rossman 2 is the kind of fight you would enjoy, Bogo.

Even if you're not familiar with these fighters.

But it's such a classic example of Straight Orthodox Punching vs Wide Unorthodox Punching, that it won't leave you cold.

Plenty of technical stuff - traps, counterpunching, fighters trying to outthink each other.
A chessmatch but a hard-punching, heated one.

Lotsa thread-freezing gifs could be made out of this.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Same here, P.
> 
> Good fights indeed.
> 
> Wouldn't say the undertraining/overtraining excuse was the only reason Galindez lost, as he was clearly on the slide by the time the Rossman fights took place.
> 
> But, yes, Galindez did look unusually bad in the first fight.
> 
> Lost to an underrated fighter though.
> 
> Rossman was a pretty solid fighter.
> Just got lost in the shuffle.
> So strong and colorful was that light heavyweight era.
> 
> For a fighter that had such an upright stance that suggested the predictable one-two only style he wasn't that stiff nor limited.
> 
> Very good jab, good power, classic straight punching but coupled with well-schooled hooks, wasn't useless on the inside, faster than average handspeed and fairly durable.
> 
> A bit methodical and needed time to really let his hands go.
> 
> All in all the greatest jewish fighter since Joe Louistein.
> 
> Have you seen Rossman's comeback win against Al Bolden, by the way?
> Worth a look if you're a fan of that era, and I know you're.
> 
> Galindez - Rossman 2 is the kind of fight you would enjoy, Bogo.
> 
> Even if you're not familiar with these fighters.
> 
> But it's such a classic example of Straight Orthodox Punching vs Wide Unorthodox Punching, that it won't leave you cold.
> 
> Plenty of technical stuff - traps, counterpunching, fighters trying to outthink each other.
> A chessmatch but a hard-punching, heated one.
> 
> Lotsa thread-freezing gifs could be made out of this.


Lester, unfortunately, Mike Rossman, like Sean O'Grady, gets shat upon so much these days in forums when their names come up...and unfairly, I think. I saw that title winning bout between Mike and Victor Galindez...hell, I saw ALL the fights televised on the networks in the late 60's and the 70's, for that matter...anyways, I thought it was a sterling performance by Rossman....and was quite disappointed by the rematch...sorry that the broken hand occurred, because I quite enjoyed Galindez's last great gasp as a fighter...a great fighter. I thought the chemistry existing between these two was intriguing...


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> Sean O'Grady


Never had anything against Sean O'Grady.

An excellent commentator and an exciting fighter.

Yeah, his father was protecting him, so what.

A 17 year old kid facing one of the biggest punchers ever is hardly the most shameful thing we ever saw in boxing.

Fought some good fighters - won some, lost some, received the scottish kiss of death.

His fights were memorable, his record was inflated.

Not everyone is Benitez.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> One of Boomsong's many names was
> 
> Collapse World Southpaw.


It's like Julius Caesar seeing that statue of Alexander and weeping.

And Rossman had the misfortune of running into a pre-buffet Dwight Braxton. Things got jiggy...


----------



## Vysotsky

Lester1583 said:


> The mysterious Ural Squall in action:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Merciless but mercyful.


Shkalikov was too much man for Frankie Liles but as expected they stole it from him.


----------



## Axe Murderer

@Pedderrs 









Did someone mentioned legends????


----------



## Lester1583

Vysotsky said:


> Shkalikov was too much man for Frankie Liles but as expected they stole it from him.





Lester1583 said:


> It was mildly controversial, I'd say.
> 
> Pretty dull fight with neither fighter looking good, very very little effective aggression and lotsa clinches (all of them were initiated by Liles).
> 
> Almost the entire fight consisted of either Shkalikov rushing in with mostly ineffective punches and Liles tying him up or Liles throwing ineffective pitty-pat one-two's in the center of the ring and Shkalikov blocking them with his gloves.
> 
> Liles looked utterly mediocre, lethargic and beatable.
> 
> I scored it for Liles but considering the point deduction, Liles' lack of aggression and constant clinching, Shkalikov's gameness and plenty of actionless close rounds the fight could have been easily scored a draw.


Shkalikov was one tough awkward man.

Would at least go the distance with most of the far more celebrated fighters.

Would take a serious puncher who is a couple leagues above skill-wise to stop him.

Froch-level talents wouldn't even manage to wobble him probably.

Can see him losing to Calzaghe by TKO2 though.


----------



## Lester1583

Galindez returns home:


----------



## Lester1583

Bodies fall, souls die.
On and on, south of heaven.


----------



## Axe Murderer




----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


>


What are your favorite H.Johnson fights, LR?

I want to know what love is.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Lester1583

The perfect jab:


----------



## Lester1583

Axe Murderer said:


> Leonard is a bitch.


Rewatched Hearns' fight versus the very brave Andries yesterday.

That counter right hand that dropped the Guayanese - makes Floyd look like a novice.

Such precision, such power.


----------



## Lester1583

EMM - Galindez is Gregory's career in a nutshell.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Lester1583

How vast was Monzon's offensive arsenal - correct textbook punching mixed with trademark argentine unorthdox (although more restrained) looping shots.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> What are your favorite H.Johnson fights, LR?
> 
> I want to know what love is.


Doug jones was a year away from giving cassius clay everything he could handle when johnson shut him out. It was sublime.

Either that or ezzard charles. Johnson holds a heavyweight champion (and consensus top p4p guy) to a standstill. Charles was older but bigger and still hadn't fought Marciano.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> 168 G.O.D.


Prime middleweight Chong-Pal - supernatural power:





Hagler knew.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


>


Can't stop watching the Underweight Four - Doug Jones, Machen, Patterson and H.Johnson.

Unlucky LHWs/cruiserweights.

Patterson could've been a great light heavy - I do agree with PowerPuncher on this.
The way he so easily crushed Moore - it's an underrated ATG win, to this day.

Doug Jones is mainly remembered for his Ali win - but he was much more than that.
Skilled, exciting, brave and durable.
Short prime but so many good fights and a few really good wins.

Machen reminds of a cross between Gregory and Chambers.
Technically very solid, physically too but something was missing.
Tripple E.

And Harold Johnson.
The Transmundane Technician.
The Doug Jones fight is indeed a borderline masterpiece of left hand domination, lightning right hand counters and economical movement.
Staggering Top-5 wins resume, @Hands of Iron.

What era that was.

Fuck Spinks.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Doug jones was a year away from giving cassius clay everything he could handle when johnson shut him out. It was sublime.


One of the fastest 34 years old fighters evah.

And you can see that it wasn't only cuz of that ageless body and natural ability.

The punching techique was so perfect, so "clean" - everything was delivered with Louis-like non-telegraphed accuracy.


----------



## dyna

Besides that one little slip, Patterson looked perfect against Moore.

He threw his hooks as short as humanly possible, not a single one overcommitted.
Balance top notch, speed and power.

That leaping left that stopped Moore was picture perfect.
Moore could have teleported one step away and Patterson would still have been on balance ready to block or throw a follow up.


----------



## Lester1583

Frazier - Foreman weigh in and pre-fight words:


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> - I've got no power!


It, of course, happened to you too.

You're watching a McCallum fight and asking yourself:
"Why in the world is he called the Bodysnatcher? Dude's punches can't even slow down a welter."

I hear ya.

Chong-Pal - Murray Sutherland is exactly what you need.

A former middleweight eviscerates a career light heavyweight in one of the sickest displays of body punching massacrality.


----------



## Lester1583

This pic perfectly encapsulates Marty Marshall's style.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> It, of course, happened to you too.
> 
> You're watching a McCallum fight and asking yourself:
> "Why in the world is he called the Bodysnatcher? Dude's punches can't even slow down a welter."
> 
> I hear ya.
> 
> Chong-Pal - Murray Sutherland is exactly what you need.
> 
> A former middleweight eviscerates a career light heavyweight in one of the sickest displays of body punching massacrality.


McCallum sometimes couldn't tell the difference between the balls and the belly. And his arms were too long.

Still he's on my all age alliterative team.


----------



## Lester1583

Lee Canalito - The Italian Stallion, Vic from Paradise Alley, trained by Dundee, managed by Stallone both in the movie and in real life - retired undefeated (21 (19 KO's)):


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> McCallum sometimes couldn't tell the difference between the balls and the belly


True.

McCallum is overrated as a body puncher, but underrated as a ballssnatcher.

He was very good with those borderline legal energy-sapping shots - rarely even warned for them.


----------



## Lester1583

Orlando Cruz's idol:


----------



## Lester1583

Doug Jones vs Franklin.

Orgasmatron.


----------



## Lester1583

It's not just power.

You can see how much H.Johnson was struggling with Moore's feints and traps.


----------



## Lester1583

Monzon.

The man of an iron constitution, impeccable ring generalship, cold icy stare.

And a highly sensitive soul.

Bouttier hit him with about a thousand rabbit punches _(Monzon did the same)_ in the rematch.

Never once King Carlos showed any signs of emotion.

But at the very end of the 10th round the unthinkable happened - the referee slapped Monzon for hitting Bouttier while he down.

And the stone-faced Argentinian staggered across the ring as if he was hurt!

Not physically obviously, but emotionally.

It was like seeing Hagler with hair.

Surreal.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> It's not just power.
> 
> You can see how much H.Johnson was struggling with Moore's feints and traps.


Moore never struck me as a pure puncher.

It's his technique and getting his opponents in the right place for his shots that made him so deadly. His feints would make them second guess themselves.

Then the Ol' Mongoose would kick 'em.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Doug Jones vs Franklin.
> 
> Orgasmatron.


More like Scanners.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Moore never struck me as a pure puncher.


Was alluding to Johnson's supposed lack of cheeen fortitude, Max.


----------



## Lester1583

Prime Foreman sparring:





Looks terrified.

Of what might happen if he hits a human with a real punch.

A classic young Foreman maneuver at 4:15.

@Boxfan
@Chinny
@dyna
@Cableaddict


----------



## dyna

I have to remind you people that Zuri Lawrence actually stunned McCline.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Prime Foreman sparring:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks terrified.
> 
> Of what might happen if he hits a human with a real punch.
> 
> A classic young Foreman maneuver at 4:15.
> 
> @Boxfan
> @Chinny
> @dyna
> @Cableaddict


Stunning footage that reaffirms why Foreman is one of my very, very favourite fighters of all time.

Only devastating bangers need apply.

1. Saad 
2. Arguello
3. Foreman
4. Saensak
5. Chang (his devastating hair makes up for his average dig)


----------



## dyna

Flea Man said:


> Stunning footage that reaffirms why Foreman is one of my very, very favourite fighters of all time.
> 
> Only devastating bangers need apply.
> 
> 1. Saad
> 2. Arguello
> 3. Foreman
> 4. Saensak
> 5. Chang (his devastating hair makes up for his average dig)


You forgot the king.






Foreman was really nothing more than a poor man's mirrored Bazooka Limon.


----------



## Flea Man

Mirrored :lol:


----------



## Flea Man

Boza is my favourite of the ferocious four.


----------



## Lester1583

Mike Tison
Amo del ring
Mike Tison
No es este el fin






Your first thought when watching this video?

Overrated; all you need is to stand up to him; Holmes' pear shaped ass; he rapes me in my dreams; Marciano, Dempsey, Vitali's chin; top 10; let's argue mates; UFC; defensive wizards.

You're a ***.

No thoughts, just extreme powah muscle growth.

You're a Man.


----------



## dyna

Tyson's style is perfectly made for highlight videos.

Not a high output fighter but fights in INTENSE bursts with great punch selection.
And that's what highlight videos are about.


----------



## Lester1583

Frazier - Buster Mathis - Olympic trials 1964:





Ridiculous size difference - Frazier looks like a middleweight.

Frazier is unusually upright - is yet to develop the Henry Armstrong crouch.


----------



## Lester1583

An old footage but still.

A historical meeting - George Foreman and Teofilo Stevenson.

At 2:10:


----------



## sugarshane_24

Flea Man said:


> Boza is my favourite of the ferocious four.


The ancestral Pacquaio did him in though.

That was a nasty stoppage.


----------



## Flea Man

sugarshane_24 said:


> The ancestral Pacquaio did him in though.
> 
> That was a nasty stoppage.


He did. Arguably the best win out of all their meetings.

Then the Mexican Chang mirror beat the piss out of the ancestral Pacquiao so bad he had to rape to feel like a man again.


----------



## sugarshane_24

dyna said:


> Tyson's style is perfectly made for highlight videos.
> 
> Not a high output fighter but fights in INTENSE bursts with great punch selection.
> And that's what highlight videos are about.


Which puzzles me even more why he seems or percieved to be dangerous early in the fight. Trains hard, picks punches and not a high output fighter yet is good only for 7 rounds or so.


----------



## sugarshane_24

Flea Man said:


> He did. Arguably the best win out of all their meetings.
> 
> Then the Mexican Chang mirror beat the piss out of the ancestral Pacquiao so bad he had to rape to feel like a man again.


Too bad he did. He picked a korean too.


----------



## Flea Man

sugarshane_24 said:


> Too bad he did. He picked a korean too.


That was his revenge against Chung for embarrassing him in their fight.

Filipino officials fixing the fight for him wasn't enough. He wanted some Korean snatch.


----------



## Lester1583

Bomber Graham - Lindell Holmes in color:





Graham - restrained and almost orthodox here.

Underrated in general.

Underrated as a light middle beast in particular.

Thank god the ref saved poor Lindell.


----------



## Lester1583

Before MMA:




Bizarreness.

@Flea Man


----------



## Lester1583

Offensive footwork vs defensive footwork.

Not just any footwork.

But absolutely flawless and purely functional.

Rarely can you find a fight that has both.

Glassohba - Hanagata is such fight.


----------



## Pedderrs

Glassohba. :lol:


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Before MMA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bizarreness.
> 
> @Flea Man


Oh shit! I'm watching this one! I went through a little Shozo phase about 2 years ago. I never saw this one.

Thanks Lester.

WTF! This isn't Boxing! :lol:


----------



## Bjj_Boxer

That's the only occasion where the ref counted to 20? Wtf? :lol:


----------



## KOTF

I'd like to see a modern fighter pull off what George Foreman did in Toronto


----------



## dyna

KOTF said:


> I'd like to see a modern fighter pull off what George Foreman did in Toronto


Fighting 5 useless bums on a single night?


----------



## KOTF

dyna said:


> Fighting 5 useless bums on a single night?


They have a difficult time enough fighting one bum


----------



## dyna

http://www.boxingscene.com/ustinov-face-briggs-oquendo-wba-belt-says-manager--112116

@Lester1583

Are you ready?
Because I've been ready for this moment for all my life.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> http://www.boxingscene.com/ustinov-face-briggs-oquendo-wba-belt-says-manager--112116
> 
> @Lester1583
> 
> Are you ready?
> Because I've been ready for this moment for all my life.


Bring it on!!!


----------



## Lester1583

Can't get more legendary than this:



> Sidon suffered two standing eight-counts in the first round. Valuev also dominated the second round. The referee wanted to stop the fight in the third round, although there seemed to be no reason for a stoppage at that moment. The crowd was very discontented with the ref's decision and beercups and bottles have been thrown into the ring. Sidon wanted to continue, so he persuaded Valuev to continue fighting for the full 6 rounds.
> 
> Due to fighting without a referee (who left the ring in the third round), the EBU ruled the bout as a no-contest.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Can't get more legendary than this:


I've read that before.

The thing that surprised me is that Sidon is still fighting.
He stopped Danny Williams at 53 last november.

And he's going to fight again in february.
There isn't a video of the stoppage though.


----------



## dyna

Many know Triple G from Kazachstan.

But few know Qudratillo (Quadruple Q) from Uzbekistan.

The Uzbeks have once again one upped Kazachstan.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> But few know Qudratillo (Quadruple Q) from Uzbekistan.


Quadralito is on that insane old school Greb schedule.

Future Top 10 ATG.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> The thing that surprised me is that Sidon is still fighting.
> He stopped Danny Williams at 53 last november.


Touched by Valuev.
Turns into an immortal soldier of war.
A true legend, unlike some gangsta-wannabees.

By the way.

We all know and appreciate Kalambay vs McCallum 1 - one of the greatest technical displays of all time.

But what if McCallum knew how to cut off the ring, fought as a swarmer(!)/outfighter, possessed the hardest jab in boxing history and was a sexier version of Alain Delon?

What if Sumbu wasn't a glass-jawed one-trick pony, but an actual defensive breakdancer?

What if they met in Korea in an event of such magnitude that none of the undercard fighters survived.

What if the last round of the fight was fought at a Hagler-Hearns round 1 pace.

Is this even possible?

The most mythical eastern euro slickfest of them all.
Considered lost for many years:





Still don't believe in miracles?

Sugar Niko throws a leaping jab at 45:27.

I rest my case gentlebros.


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> The most mythical eastern euro slickfest of them all.


@Vysotsky's favorite heavyweight fight.

Bidenko went on to beat an undefeated Oleksiy Mazikin.

One of the few fighters to beat Povetkin in the amateurs and a major disappointment in the pro ranks.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> I went through a little Shozo phase about 2 years ago.


Are you a real Shozo fan though?

Real fans know he would school and outman Marquez.

Well, are you, Ped?


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> Are you a real Shozo fan though?
> 
> Real fans know he would school and outman Marquez.
> 
> Well, are you, Ped?


Nah, JMM would have slapped Shozo silly.

I can't subscribe to your contrarian bullshit. I love you, I do, but I canne fall off that cliff.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Nah, JMM would have slapped Shozo silly.


May you drown in piss, maintstream bitch.


----------



## Pedderrs

Lester1583 said:


> May you drown in piss, maintstream bitch.


I'm rarely called mainstream. :lol:

Happy New Year, you old bastard.


----------



## Lester1583

Pedderrs said:


> Happy New Year, you handsome role-model.


I don't celebrate holidays.

Only death.

But I wish you happiness, a pair of balls and a year full of fat girls.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Is this even possible?
> 
> Still don't believe in miracles?
> 
> .


23:25

Valuev's uppercut almost sends the man to eye level.
CRAZY

Somewhere around 7 forgot which.
Crowd clapping when the glove tape is being reapplied, mysterious.

Imagine Hearns-Delgado being summarized in 3 minutes.
That was what round 12 was like.
Oncen Bidenko was on the ropes the crazy started, screw the tape fight has to go on.

Mexico realized they still had a lot to learn


----------



## dyna

Happy new year fuckers.

Have you ever felt like you wanted to see more of Marciano, but you've rewatched all his fights so many times they've become boring?
Have you ever thought how Marciano would be with modern PEDs?
215 pounds? 200 pounds?

Fear not:

5'10 check
67.5" reach check
Prone to cuts check


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Have you ever felt like you wanted to see more of Marciano, but you've rewatched all his fights so many times they've become boring?
> Have you ever thought how Marciano would be with modern PEDs?


One of my former friends used to tell me about this aggressive bulgarian technician with an unusual name.

Fearless, short and featherfisted.

I thought I was alone in this bejenaruless universe.

Now there's 3 of us - you, me and the abstract thinking @Cableaddict.

Together we will shake the pillars of heaven.

Constantin went down in weight recently.

He knows where the biggest challenge is.


----------



## dyna




----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


> Not to derail the thread.
> 
> But I'm rewatching our favorite prime Leonard fight right now.
> 
> My god, was Sugar Ray awesome or what?!
> 
> So fast, so explosive, so cerebral.
> 
> No wonder he beat so many ATG's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally thought he was the favorite coming into this fight and bet a huge sum on him but Ray let me down big time.
> 
> What do you think was the reason for his shocking, one-sided, humiliating, life-changing loss, Pity?
> 
> Was it the case of running into a much quicker stronger fighter and getting exposed or a simple matter of horror, horror?
> 
> Would love to hear your unbiased opinion.





PityTheFool said:


>


These kind of wins can get underrated sometimes.

Wins over great old fighter.

The key word is great here.

Tyson-Holmes, Arguello-Olivares, Khaosai-Orono, McGuigan-Pedroza, etc.

They don't have much left/aren't the same anymore - but they are no pushovers yet - still capable of pulling off a surprise result/putting on a gutsy performance/make even great young fighters work for the win.

They still have something left in them, some fire, some pride that doesn't allow them to lose to just anybody, to go down without a fight.

Smug, cherrypicker, ducker, overrated - regardless of what you call him - Leonard was the man inside the ring.

Never embarrassed himself in any of his losses.

He was out-everything against Norris.

But still tried, didn't quit and offered no excuses afterwards.

And that's more than you can ask from an aging legend.

Pacheko was shit as always.


----------



## LittleRed

Somewhere redrooster just smiled...


----------



## Lester1583

@Trail 
@Chinny


----------



## Trail

Lester1583 said:


> @Trail
> @Chinny


Nice...check that gum shield hanging out though...


----------



## Lester1583

USA's national anthem is usually butchered beyond recognition by pop **** and r'n'b whores.

That's cuz they sing like it's about them - "My God! Such a big occasion! I made it! Time to shine!"

Fuck off back to sucking your record label's owner cock on instagram.

Amateurish, no stupid high notes, just love for his country:





Even Ali felt it.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> USA's national anthem is usually butchered beyond recognition by pop **** and r'n'b whores.
> 
> That's cuz they sing like it's about them - "My God! Such a big occasion! I made it! Time to shine!"
> 
> Fuck off back to sucking your record label's owner cock on instagram.
> 
> Amateurish, no stupid high notes, just love for his country:


Damn right


----------



## homeless_holmes

dyna said:


> Happy new year fuckers.
> 
> Have you ever felt like you wanted to see more of Marciano, but you've rewatched all his fights so many times they've become boring?
> Have you ever thought how Marciano would be with modern PEDs?
> 215 pounds? 200 pounds?
> 
> Fear not:
> 
> 5'10 check
> 67.5" reach check
> Prone to cuts check


Bejenaru is fun to watch


----------



## dyna

http://www.boxingscene.com/shannon-briggs-fres-oquendo-ordered-reach-deal-by-wba--112358


----------



## dyna

https://pound4poundireland.wordpres...potential-wladimir-klitschko-v-oquendo-fight/

Oquendo's manager put the heat on Fat Dan back when Oquendo wanted to fight Vitali.

" As proof I offer that Fres was in Vitali's camp and frustrated him, got the best of him, busted him up and dropped him.

Yes I know, please tell me how he is boring, old, washed up blah blah blah. Nobody disputes Ruiz was a horrible fight. So was Holyfield/Valuev, most *Floyd Mayweather* fights and a million others like most Klit fights. They cannot all be Al/Frazier, Ward/Gatti Castillo/Corales Holmes/Norton round 15. I will mention that unlike Klits who are quitters, Fres fought Ruiz with a torn labrum, Holyfield with 102 fever and strep-throat and his last fight stopping a guy who *David Tua*, *David Boytsov* and *Samuel Peter* couldn't stop and did it, with a broke hand. He did not sit in his stool and quit in any of those fights. Or look embarrassingly pathetic as Vlad did in his 3 losses. Vlad would never have come back from a Tua beating let alone stay on his feet. In the Mormeck fight as well as Toney, Byrd, Holyfield and McCall, Fres out-threw, out-landed those guys in every aspect and just about every round. It is I am sure a coincidence it was in the opponent's home town that he lost those fights."

"So chubby, you would be correct in saying that Fres and I are complete bonehead morons for thinking at one time that we might get a fair shake without crooked promoters, corrupt government appointed commissions and shyster like the IBF who was dismantled for taking bribes at one time; you would actually be dead on. But to denigrate a World Class fighter like Fres who is a great dad, husband, does not drink, beat his baby momma, wear woman's stockings while coked up and wind up in rehab is repulsive."


----------



## Cableaddict

dyna said:


>


That's some crazy shit right there!

Damn good fight, too. I don't remember Sugar V ever moving that well.


----------



## Lester1583

Cableaddict said:


> That's some crazy shit right there!
> 
> Damn good fight, too. I don't remember Sugar V ever moving that well.


That's cuz by the time Valuev won the title he was already past his prime.

And multiple injuries forced him to stop training as hard as he did in his youth.

The flabby listless champion Valuev was a far cry from the dancing Sugar Nikki V:





Dat entrance, @dyna.
XXX-rated stuff.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> http://www.boxingscene.com/shannon-briggs-fres-oquendo-ordered-reach-deal-by-wba--112358


It's finally The Big O time.

I can feel it, D.

I can feel it.


----------



## dyna

Makabu's bigger brother
http://boxrec.com/boxer/681602





You better watch out Bellew.


----------



## Lester1583

The news of the Oquendo's upcoming titile triumph were so overwhelming, @dyna has temporarily turned into an orthodox Christian and is now celebrating Slavic Christmas.

A bit too much, but who can blame him.


----------



## Lester1583

Qawi vs Toney at the old cruiserweight limit.

Like choosing between Mcdonalds and Burger King.


----------



## Lester1583

Hagler sparring - 1975:





Hair!!!

@dyna 
@LittleRed 
@Flea Man 
@Jdempsey85 
@Phantom


----------



## Jdempsey85

Lester1583 said:


> Hagler sparring - 1975:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hair!!!
> ]


Ha the comment section say Bob baker won a boston radio contest to spar Marvin :lol:


----------



## Lester1583

Jdempsey85 said:


> Ha the comment section say Bob baker won a boston radio contest to spar Marvin :lol:


Should've just bent at the waist.

Ol' Marvin dodged a bullet here.

@Chacal
@One to watch
@Bogotazo


----------



## Phantom

Trail said:


> Nice...check that gum shield hanging out though...


Always the mark of a pro.


----------



## Trail

Phantom said:


> Always the mark of a pro.


Shame how it ended though, Phantom.


----------



## Phantom

Trail said:


> Shame how it ended though, Phantom.


Yes, I agree Trail!


----------



## LittleRed

Hagler with hair. It's not quite mustache Ali but it's close...


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Ali
> Foreman
> Norton
> Lyle
> Shavers


Now lookit here
I did not say I was the greatest
But I said I have beaten more ATG's than the greatest.
And robberies, great googly-moogly.


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> Hagler with hair. It's not quite mustache Ali but it's close...


You were saying...


----------



## Lester1583

Might is Right


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> You were saying...


There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear...


----------



## Lester1583

Gatti - Wayne McCullough - amateur fight:




@Trail


----------



## Trail

Lester1583 said:


> Gatti - Wayne McCullough - amateur fight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Trail


This afternoon's viewing sorted. Thank you Lester. Two of my favourite fighters there...


----------



## Lester1583

In this world of **** and sjw's, wherever King Carlos may go to, he will always travel on his own:





Almost as powerful as meldonium - Jesse Ventura approved.

Some rare shots, @Phantom - 2:57 after the Suzana Gimenez altercation?


----------



## Lester1583

Byrd vs Jimmy Young would be like a lesbian scene between Megan Fox and Scarlett Johansson.

I want both of them.

To win.

Hard.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> In this world of **** and sjw's, wherever King Carlos may go to, he will always travel on his own:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost as powerful as meldonium - Jesse Ventura approved.
> 
> Some rare shots, @Phantom - 2:57 after the Suzana Gimenez altercation?


:happyThank you Lester...you know what a massive Monzon fan I am:good I was just telling @Duo, when he and I were lamenting how few classic boxing fans there are in this so called boxing site...that there was one giant that we still had here...namely you...but how paltry it is otherwise. I appreciate this...King Carlos...still the GOAT middleweight champion IMHO.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Byrd vs Jimmy Young would be like a lesbian scene between Megan Fox and Scarlett Johansson.
> 
> I want both of them.
> 
> To win.
> 
> Hard.


Yeah, though I prize Jimmy Young so much higher than Byrd, it would be a terribly bad fight...and a cruel blow for most fight fans...who weren't into masochism.:smile


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Might is Right


God, but I loved Big George back then...I was especially fascinated by his having tigers and lions for pets....that was true badass...that and toting livestock on his shoulders. No one was stronger than GF...and still no one is.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Gatti - Wayne McCullough - amateur fight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Trail


Along with fellow feather Juan LaPorte...the greatest chins in boxing history.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Now lookit here
> I did not say I was the greatest
> But I said I have beaten more ATG's than the greatest.
> And robberies, great googly-moogly.


My man Jimmy...to me, he deserved the nods over Ali and Norton....but it wasn't fair to have to deal with an opponent *and* three crooked judges at the same time...


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Might is Right


For a moment I thought, what's Alex Leapai doing there?


----------



## Trail

Phantom said:


> Along with fellow feather Juan LaPorte...the greatest chins in boxing history.


We're still having Wayne McCullough in there, @Phantom...right?:good


----------



## Phantom

Trail said:


> We're still having Wayne McCullough in there, @Phantom...right?:good


:goodWithout question Trail...Trump's wall should be as impregnable as Wayne's chin was.:bbb


----------



## Trail

Phantom said:


> :goodWithout question Trail...Trump's wall should be as impregnable as Wayne's chin was.:bbb


Superb. :good:lol::good


----------



## Phantom

@Lester1583 ....Why isn't this thread stickied?


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> @Lester1583 ....Why isn't this thread stickied?


Anti-argentinian agenda.

Lotsa emotionally crippled brits in here.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Lester1583

Dream Warriors


----------



## Lester1583

Where it all began:


----------



## Lester1583

Proto-meldonium:


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Proto-meldonium:


Freakish shoulders, like a professional swimmer.


----------



## Lester1583

The dark side:


----------



## Lester1583

Comandante Animal:


----------



## thehook13

No idea where to post this. Cracking fight


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> The dark side:


For all practical intents and purposes, where it ended.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Comandante Animal:


A great, underrated champion!


----------



## Phantom

Galindez was indeed an animal in the way he won the vacant crown from Len Hutchins....then immediately afterwards transformed himself into a crafty, counter puncher...perhaps the counter puncher's counter puncher.


----------



## Phantom

dyna said:


> Freakish shoulders, like a professional swimmer.


Griffith was a powerful specimen...many people forget how he physically dominated Dick Tiger at times when he won the middleweight title in 1966.


----------



## Lester1583

The 6th round of Monzon-Bouttier 1 is the Gatti-Ward 9 of Carlos' filmed career.

Not only it's a wild brawl (by Escopeta's standards), but Bouttier also managed to briefly rock (!) Monzon, as he tried to finish the frenchman.

Madness.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> The 6th round of Monzon-Bouttier 1 is the Gatti-Ward 9 of Carlos' filmed career.
> 
> Not only it's a wild brawl (by Escopeta's standards), but Bouttier also managed to briefly rock (!) Monzon, as he tried to finish the frenchman.
> 
> Madness.


Yes, I agree with that...ice turned briefly to fire in that round.


----------



## Lester1583

Lester1583 said:


>


Khagan Galindez definitely was from Uzbekistan.

@Vic, you're an Argentinian, tell us - is it a common thing for latinos to have an Asian ancestry?


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Khagan Galindez definitely was from Uzbekistan.
> 
> @Vic, you're an Argentinian, tell us - is it a common thing for latinos to have an Asian ancestry?


:lol: 
Yeah, native-argentinians generally do have "asian eyes"...


----------



## Lester1583

Interesting slice of history:


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Interesting slice of history:


One of the true Golden Ages of boxing...and I can't believe how Griffith's accomplishment and performance against a reknown, powerful champion in Dick Tiger...10 lbs heavier... isn't given more weight today...Griffith was just superb that night in April 1966. Seems that today's "experts" only harp on the homosexual thing...and the Paret bout. Griffith's win over Tiger in '66 was sheer brilliance...no matter how close it was. Hmmm....I think I sense a Griffith-Tiger thread coming soon...not that CHB will pay any attention to it though.


----------



## Phantom

Vic said:


> :lol:
> Yeah, native-argentinians generally do have "asian eyes"...


Lending credence to the fact that Amerinds..."Native Americans" are really Asian exports.


----------



## Vic

Phantom said:


> Lending credence to the fact that Amerinds..."Native Americans" are really Asian exports.


Yeah, many native-brazilians have similar looks to that too.


----------



## Lester1583

Fuck LeBron:


----------



## Lester1583

Never happened to SuperVasya:


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> There's something magical about it.


Open your heart to Marijan Benes, D:





And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
1:25 - 2:56


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


>


Very interesting...Ezz was very introspective much like Floyd Patterson.


----------



## dyna

You only need to land once to KO Roy... oh.






The slow mo didn't look to violent but the sound of the shot was hard.

Del Valle's iron chin probably carried him towards that shot.


----------



## dyna

Casuals thought Holmes had the greatest jab of all time.

Fans know Williams and Witherspoon outjabbed Holmes.

Experts saw Bonecrusher Smith outjabbing Holmes in the later rounds.

So much for the "greatest jab in boxing history"


----------



## Lester1583

Not only his power was a rarity, Julian Jackson's combos also were unusual.

Single separate shots, as if every punch was the first one.

Stiff and textbook while always trying to maintain perfect balance.


----------



## Lester1583

Weight Jumpers Slay Together:


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Weight Jumpers Slay Together:


Thought I was watching Louis spar Willard before I read the title.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## dyna

The real truth to Larry's jab is that he never abandoned it.

Punch for punch, jab for jab. Larry's wasn't the best.
Was it really better than Norton's jab for example? But does it really matter when Larry threw 4-5 jabs for every one Norton threw?

An jab that's being used will always beat an unused jab.
And Larry always did his best to make his jab a factor.

Like everything during the 80s heavyweight scene you can all summarize it with one word, consistency.
Larry had it, the others did not.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


>


Dreams are Hard to Follow





G-Man and Emanuel Steward:





Nothing But a G Thang:


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Beyond legendness.


Entering eternity:


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Entering eternity:


Chong Pal Park could have been proud*.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> The real truth to Larry's jab is that he never abandoned it.
> 
> Punch for punch, jab for jab. Larry's wasn't the best.
> Was it really better than Norton's jab for example? But does it really matter when Larry threw 4-5 jabs for every one Norton threw?
> 
> An jab that's being used will always beat an unused jab.
> And Larry always did his best to make his jab a factor.
> 
> Like everything during the 80s heavyweight scene you can all summarize it with one word, consistency.
> Larry had it, the others did not.


Some good points here.

Louis is a good example of an underused jab.

It was great against a no-defense Baer.

But it would've made Louis' life much easier if it was there against Conn too.


----------



## Lester1583

On iron horse he flies
On iron horse he dies


----------



## Lester1583

Watched a brief Marciano interview.

Yup, boxing was dying in 1958 too.


----------



## dyna

Oh somebody comfort me.

At times like this I wish Henry Akinwande was here hugging me.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


>


The most shocking, inexplicable, discombobulating, wrong upset of all time:


----------



## LittleRed

Watched Barney Ross vs Jimmy Mcclarnin 3. It's cut up a bit so I can't make a strong opinion but it (and to a lesser extent Ross-Canzoneri) maybe one of the most fascinating fights to watch if you find yourself time machining fighters. Ross is hypermodern, the commentary even brings up his high guard, with a very active jab and combination punching. Mcclarnin fights more like a throwback, hands real low, single shots, flurries in close, although he clinches less than a turn of the century fighter. It's how I imagine a fight between a guy like Joe Gans and a guy like Floyd Mayweather would go. Although I wonder about that shell-first guy I can remember seeing use it is that guy that beat Battling Siki so in the 1920s. Anyway...


----------



## Lester1583

If anyone's in the mood for some serious thinking man's boxing,

the elusive Eder Jofre - Jose Legra is up on youtube again:





Download it at least - there will be times in your life when you will need it.

@dyna
@Phantom
@Zopilote
@Boxfan
@Chinny
@Duo


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> The most shocking, inexplicable, discombobulating, wrong upset of all time:


After the fight was over all I could think was 'why did I watch this?'

Also never een seen Wlad as tired as Nielsen was.


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> If anyone's in the mood for some serious thinking man's boxing,
> 
> the elusive Eder Jofre - Jose Legra is up on youtube again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Download it at least - there will be times in your life when you will need it.
> 
> @dyna
> @Phantom
> @Zopilote
> @Boxfan
> @Chinny
> @Duo


How did you score it ?


----------



## Lester1583

LittleRed said:


> It's how I imagine a fight between a guy like Joe Gans and a guy like Floyd Mayweather would go.


Don't see it personally.

Ross is too textbook and correct - he's from that Winstone school of unflash.

There was a thread on ESB a long time ago that discussed it too - of the recent fighters Oscar was Ross' successor.
@Bogotazo

Ross was a beast of the slow retreat aggressive boxing - few did it better than him.

McLarnin-Ganzzz is a closer comparison.

Although I'd say McLarnin's style was more unique/his own but still modern a la Froch rather than outdated.


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> How did you score it ?


It's one of those fights that can be scored differently with each viewing, in my opinion.

Timeless classic.

I prefer Jofre.

He was 37, by the way, which is amazing even by today's standards.

Considering the level of competition and the quality of the fight - it's right up there with the best over-the-hill performances of all time.


----------



## LittleRed

Lester1583 said:


> Don't see it personally.
> 
> Ross is too textbook and correct - he's from that Winstone school of unflash.
> 
> There was a thread on ESB a long time ago that discussed it too - of the recent fighters Oscar was Ross' successor.
> @Bogotazo
> 
> Ross was a beast of the slow retreat aggressive boxing - few did it better than him.
> 
> McLarnin-Ganzzz is a closer comparison.
> 
> Although I'd say McLarnin's style was more unique/his own but still modern a la Froch rather than outdated.


You are right. Mayweather is too, i want to say fluid but the word is probably agile. Bendy maybe. And yes Mcclarnin may just be unique.

Haven't seen Jofre vs Legra in a while. Although I really want to know what happened with Legra against Arguello as you would think a guy that could do an A+ Ali imitation would give him fits at least. Just the end of the line I guess.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> If anyone's in the mood for some serious thinking man's boxing,
> 
> the elusive Eder Jofre - Jose Legra is up on youtube again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Download it at least - there will be times in your life when you will need it.
> 
> @dyna
> @Phantom
> @Zopilote
> @Boxfan
> @Chinny
> @Duo


Thank you Lester!:good


----------



## Axe Murderer




----------



## Lester1583

What's even more amazing about Jofre is that he wasn't even some kind of genetic freak.

A textbook perfection, who unlike many of his fellow perfectionists, was loose and improvising.

Didn't cry after fights, which is an even bigger accomplishment for a brazilian.


----------



## Lester1583

Pre-fight motivation


----------



## Vic

Lester1583 said:


> Didn't cry after fights, which is an even bigger accomplishment for a brazilian.


:lol:


----------



## Vic

My Boxing coach sparred with Jofre back in the 70s..


----------



## Vic

How about this rarity, Lester ?


----------



## Lester1583

Vic said:


> How about this rarity, Lester ?


Becerra was El Gato's cousin and his first trainer.

Very popular in his prime, and just as Raton Macias retired very young.

He does look good, once he warmed up.

Good fight and good find, Vic.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Lester1583

Tears for remembrance and tears for joy
Tears for somebody and




After Kates 1.

@Phantom
@Axe Murderer
@Vic
@dyna


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Tears for remembrance and tears for joy
> Tears for somebody and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After Kates 1.
> 
> @Phantom
> @Axe Murderer
> @Vic
> @dyna


Thank you Lester! Maybe this was Victor's finest moment as champion?


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> Thank you Lester! Maybe this was Victor's finest moment as champion?


Certainly the most memorable - ATG fight.


----------



## Lester1583

Hard to find any info on him, so here's a short article about

The Greatest Super Middleweight That Never Was:



> Pierre Fourie, the youngest of Violet Fourie's four sons, was the naughty one; unlike Martin, Louis and Price. But he became one of South Africa's favourite sportsmen.
> 
> It was difficult to keep tabs on Pierre, she recalled. He often went out with his mates and on many occasions arrived home covered in blood after another street fight.
> 
> Hidings from his father, also named Pierre, did not help. It seemed fighting was all Pierre wanted to do, said Violet, whose parents had come to South Africa from Wales.
> 
> Her husband died when Pierre Jr was only 13 and the youngster became difficult to control.
> 
> Pierre was born on June 26, 1943 and grew up in Malvern, Johannesburg. He attended Malvern West Primary School and later Malvern High.
> 
> Among his friends at the time were Murdoch Mathisson, who drowned, and George Kleynhans, who died after being stabbed with a knife.
> 
> Nobody remembered Pierre ever losing a street fight, but he was badly battered on occasions when he was attacked by gangs. He was stabbed a few times, once with a screwdriver and once with a broken bottle.
> 
> One of his rivals was Coert Fourie, who became a professional boxer and later lost a close fight to Pierre for the SA middleweight title.
> 
> After the death of Kleynhans, one of his best friends, and having married Julia, his childhood sweetheart, Pierre's life changed. He had read about Sugar Ray Robinson, who became his hero, and decided he wanted to be a boxer.
> 
> His uncle Reggie Morris, who had also boxed, began teaching him.
> 
> After winning his first two amateur fights by knockout, he spent eight months training under the guidance of the famous Laurie Stevens, but never got a fight.
> 
> In 1965, Norman Fleischer, a former boxer and trainer who owned the Las Vegas snooker saloon in Market Street, Johannesburg, was told about the almost unbeatable young street fighter from Malvern.
> 
> One rainy Tuesday afternoon, Fleischer went to 233 Jewel Street where they cleared part of the lounge for Pierre and another young fighter to do some sparring.
> 
> Fleischer could not believe what he was seeing. Fourie, who had had only two amateur fights and had done some boxing in the army, moved around with natural rhythm and reflexes. As he had just started a new business, Fleischer was unable to train Fourie. He told him to contact Alan Toweel, who had a big stable of fighters and did not return any calls from Fourie of Fleischer.
> 
> When he agreed to see Fourie, it was the start of a long and successful partnership.
> 
> Fourie made his professional debut on May 2, 1966 with a first-round knockout of Sarel Visser and. In his sixth fight, he won the vacant Transvaal middleweight title when he stopped Pat Breedt in the ninth round.
> 
> In November 6, 1967, in his ninth professional fight, he faced an experienced Irishman, Lian Mullen, and beat him on points over ten rounds.
> 
> The next year, he drew with Don McMillan and beat Marcel Petit, Assane Fakye and Al Sharpe of Ireland before winning the SA middleweight title on November 2 when he knocked out the highly rated Willie Ludick in the first round.
> 
> On March 15, 1969 Fourie suffered his first loss when Welshman Dick Duffy beat him on points. He bounced back with wins over Coert Fourie and Johnny Wood, twice, to retain his national title.
> 
> Some experts thought Wood had done enough to win their first fight, resulting in big controversy.
> 
> In February 1970, Fourie stopped Ludick in the tenth to retain his SA title for the fourth time.
> 
> He then relinquished the title and beat imported fighters such as Frank Young, Johnny Kramer, Mario Lamagna, Harry Scott, Domenico Tiberia and Carmello Bossi to make it a really successful year.
> 
> In 1971, he added ten wins against good opponents. One of them was American Fraser Scott, who later claimed he was paid to take a dive.
> 
> Fraser made the startling revelation in April 1975 in the book _ Weigh-In _. He wrote he had accepted 3 000 dollars to lose because the fight was to be a steppingstone for Fourie to challenge Carlos Monzon for his world title.
> 
> By October 1971, Fourie was unable to make the middleweight limit. He moved into the light-heavyweight division because there was no super-middleweight division at the time; a class in which he would have been more comfortable.
> 
> After beating Mario Almanzo, Roger Rouse, Karl Zurheide, Don Fullmer, Amado Vasquez, Luigi Colavita and Mark Tessman, Fourie beat Sarel Aucamp on a close decision on September 2, 1972 to win the SA light heavyweight title. He weighed only 75.55 kg at the time.
> 
> In December he retained title by beating Aucamp on a sixth-round technical knockout.
> 
> Fourie outpointed Zurheide and Conney Velensek early in 1973 before Allan Toweel agreed to a fight with world light-heavyweight champion Bob Foster, one of the best light-heavyweight boxers in history.
> 
> To get the fight, he had to take on the champion in his backyard in Albuquerque, the capital of New Mexico, on August 21, 1973. And he had to accept a purse of about R8 000.
> 
> Fourie, who weighed in at 76.20 kg, put up a gallant fight, but the bigger and taller Foster won by wide margins over 15 rounds. A South African judge scored it 149-138 and the other two handed in scores of 149-130 and 148-120.
> 
> Fouries's brave effort captured the imagination of the public and he became a national hero.
> 
> In an interview with author Chris Greyvenstein Fourie later recalled, "There is no doubt that Foster beat me thoroughly although Maurice Toweel, in the radio broadcast to South Africa, managed to give me 16 out of the 15 rounds."
> 
> In his first fight after losing to Foster, Fourie beat Germany's Rudiger Schmidtke by a narrow points decision to make sure of getting another crack at the world title.
> 
> Until 1973, whites and blacks were not allowed to fight each other in South Africa. But Fourie's steady climb to the top stirred up ideas of a world title fight between him and Foster in Johannesburg.
> 
> These thoughts coincided with Dr Piet Koornhof's appointment as minister of sport in 1972. He was enthusiastic about the fight being held in South Africa.
> 
> Fourie had proved to be such a worthy contender that a return bout became an attractive financial proposition. Foster was guaranteed a record purse for a light-heavyweight, namely $200 000.
> 
> The fight took place in Johannesburg on December 1, 1973.
> 
> It was a breakthrough on the way to remove racial discrimination in SA boxing.
> 
> Just as president Paul Kruger of the Transvaal Republic had changed a law, although only temporarily, for the historic fight between Bendoff and Couper to take place, president John Vorster, in November 1973, amended the Boxing and Wrestling Control Act of 1954.
> 
> "Interracial boxing" was still prohibited in South Africa, but Proclamation R2173 allowed the minister to approve any departure from some or all of the provisions of this regulation.
> 
> This included circumstances such as a world title bout or "an internationally recognised final eliminating contest for a world title," or a tournament that complied "with the requirements of a South African multi-national tournament and in which South African boxers participated who were registered with the recognised National Boxing Control Board."
> 
> This enabled the minister of sport and recreation to introduce professional fights between white and black opponents, albeit at a restricted level.
> 
> Fourie's return fight with Foster at the Rand Stadium in Johannesburg will always remain a landmark in SA sports history.
> 
> For the first time since professional boxing was placed under legal control in 1923, a white and a black man met in the ring in front of a racially mixed audience. There were of 37 474 people.
> 
> The press coverage was possibly bigger than for any other previous sporting event in SA history.
> 
> It was reported that the complimentary tickets cost Maurice Toweel's Springbok Promotions R24 000; an enormous sum in those days.
> 
> Maurice was reported as saying that Mr Harry Oppenheimer had bought six R150 tickets and Sol Kerzner bought five.
> 
> In an absorbing fight, Fourie again produced a gutsy performance but the referee, Roland Dakin from England, made the champion a four-point winner, Tim Keleher of Albuquerque gave it to Foster by eight points and SA judge Sydney Beck put Foster three points in front.
> 
> Fourie went on to beat Mike Quarry, Rudiger Schmidtke, Tom Bogs and Porter "Baby Boy" Rolle to put himself in contention for another crack at the world title, which was then held by Victor Galindez from Argentina.
> 
> In August 1974, the WBC withdrew recognition of Foster as world champion because he had failed to sign for a title defence against John Conteh or Jorge Ahumada.
> 
> When Foster announced his retirement on September 16, Conteh beat Ahumada for the vacant title and Galindez beat Len Hutchins in December to win the vacant WBA title.
> 
> Conteh was ranked No 1 by Ring magazine, Galindez No 2 and Fourie No 7 when the WBA agreed to Galindez making the first defence of his title against Fourie.
> 
> The fight, scheduled for April 5, 1975 at the Ellis Park rugby stadium, was postponed to April 7 after heavy rain.
> 
> Fourie, who had weighed in at 76.90 kg, was ahead after ten rounds and looked a likely winner, especially after Galindez was cut over his right eye in the eighth round.
> 
> When the result was announced in favour of the champion, the estimated 40 000 spectators were shocked into silence. A strong finish in the last four rounds had given Galindez victory.
> 
> After a hard-earned points win over Germany's Conny Velensek in Durban on June 30, 1975, Fourie met Galindez in a return match at the Rand Stadium in Johannesburg on September 13.
> 
> Galindez first weighed in at 79.52 kg, which was 104 grams over the limit, but he was on the limit of 79.38 kg for the second weigh-in. Fourie had no weight problems, coming in at a comfortable 78.85 kg.
> 
> It turned into another epic encounter. An American judge, Joe Bunsa, scored the bout in favour of the South African. Luis Allende (Argentina) and Peter Lock (South Africa) made Galindez the winner.
> 
> The split decision was disputed by most of those in the stadium, including senior reporters.
> 
> Knowledgeable boxing writer Paul Irwin wrote, "Joe Bunsa will go down in South African sporting history as the Magnificent Neutral. When Pierre Fourie lost his second world title fight with the Argentine's Victor Galindez in Johannesburg on Saturday by a split two-to-one decision, it was Mr Bunsa who had our man in front on points - and me, I think he was right."
> 
> Fourie went his grave convinced that he had won both of his world title fights against Galindez.
> 
> Just over three months later a rather disillusioned Fourie was well beaten by American Ritchie Kates over ten rounds.
> 
> Recovering from the setbacks, he beat Leo Kakolewicz, Ramon Avenemar Peralta and Rafael Gutierrez in 1976 and was offered a fight against Mike Rossman, who not long afterwards beat Galindez for the WBA title. But his mind was already made up: he wanted to call it a day.
> 
> He decided to have one more fight. He challenged Gerrie Coetzee for the SA heavyweight title at the Wembley Stadium in Johannesburg on March 19, 1977.
> 
> Coming in at 84.40 kg, the heaviest of his career, Fourie was knocked out for the first time in his career. Coetzee, who was more than 11 kg heavier, won in the third round.
> 
> It was later reported that Fourie had hidden iron bars in his trunks at the weigh-in to boost his official weight.
> 
> Fourie, who was trained by Cookie Mendoza for the Coetzee fight, had broken up with Alan Toweel.
> 
> After the fight, Toweel said, "I hated to see him beaten like this. Had I still been his manager, I would never have taken this fight. When I saw him climbing into the ring, I wanted to walk up to him and to, at least, say: "Hello Pierre".
> 
> Fourie announced his retirement immediately after the fight to finish with a record of 52-7-1, including 10 knockouts.
> 
> He was without a doubt one of the best fighters to come out of South Africa, even though he lacked a big punch.
> 
> This was attributed to fragile bones in his hands. The problem went back to his fifth professional fight, his second encounter with the rugged Boet de Bruyn. Fourie beat De Bruyn on points, but broke both his hands.
> 
> Adter retiring, Fourie opened a gym in Mayfair in September 1977 and trained eight professional boxers. He also took out a promoter's licence.
> 
> Sadly, a little more than three years after he had retired - on Saturday evening, June 21, 1980 - he was involved in a fatal crash.
> 
> He was on his way to his home in Kibler Park when his four-wheel-drive vehicle left the road and overturned after crashing into a fence at Cecil Payne Park in Maraisburg, Roodepoort.
> 
> The following Thursday, on what would have been his 37th birthday, Pierre Jacy Fourie was buried in West Park Cemetery.


----------



## Lester1583

Monzon - Fourie sounds like a ruined orgasm.


----------



## Lester1583

- I broke his back. Spinal.


----------



## Lester1583

Scream for me, Monzofreaks, scream for me!












> Pampas Bull Who's Sweet As Sugar.
> 
> I like the fellow
> who in the heat of battle
> was able to plant our flag
> in the toughest terrain.
> Champion in his game,
> confident in his ability,
> he saw the vultures grouping,
> chased them with his hat
> and seared them with his poncho.
> 
> If you go forward tenaciously
> you'll struggle through with your message,
> even though your wagon gets stuck
> and the cattle crush you.
> There's nothing wrong with the man
> who wears out his knife
> defending his honor.
> The coward hands it over to the police
> without ever taking it out of its sheath.
> 
> Here's to you, Carlos Monzon.
> one hundred percent Santafesino.
> the new world champion.
> Strength, fists and heart.
> From this old tree,
> for you a prize of honey
> and a laurel wreath.
> From your tent a cry of victory,
> a woman's hand in yours,
> and a carnation pinned to your lapel.
> 
> It had been raining off and on for a month in parts of the Argentine pampas. Rivers were out of their banks surrounding the city of Santa Fe, 240 miles northwest of Buenos Aires. A cold wind blew across brown ponds that now stood in the grasslands. In the basement gym at the Club Atlético Unión in Santa Fe, the floor was laid over with a scum of gray mud. At five o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon, Carlos Monzon came down the concrete steps into the small, damp room where a couple of dozen boxers were shuffling in the slime, pounding leather bags with their fists, snorting and dodging and throwing straight right hands in imitation of the style that had turned Monzon from a shoeshine boy into the middleweight champion of the world.
> 
> That afternoon Monzon had been at a school where he posed for photographs with a lot of screaming children. He had left the school and driven his lilac-colored Fiat to the club. Inside the high brick walls of the club grounds are rugby and soccer fields, and a swimming pool filled with oily water and so much rubbish that Monzon could almost have walked over it to the gym. Monzon had been up all night drinking Scotch and playing the guitar and singing with friends, and he looked like a man who had just swallowed a cockroach. His title light with Benny Briscoe of Philadelphia, now scheduled for Nov. 11 in Buenos Aires, had been postponed for the third time in a week. His mood was sullen and edgy.
> 
> "Don't mind it if Monzon doesn't seem to like you," a friend of his said while the champion was changing clothes in a corner. "He's that way with nearly everybody. The way he grew up as a poor kid on the streets, he never needed to know much about manners, and he doesn't trust many people."
> 
> The young boxers in the gym wore an assortment of costumes-Bermuda shorts, bathing trunks, polo shirts. Some were barefoot. Monzon put on a classy blue training outfit and climbed between tattered ropes into the gym's only ring. He began skipping rope, his feet hammering on the wooden floor. If you got knocked down in that ring, they could pick a box of toothpicks out of your back.
> 
> "People say Monzon doesn't have any right to make so much money these days just for hitting people a few times and knocking them cold," his friend said. "But they don't know how many hours he has spent down here in this basement, getting hit. He's worked hard to be the champion. Now he can do what he pleases."
> 
> The champion kept missing beats with his rope. Finally he scowled and tossed the rope to his manager. Amilcar Brusa, a big man with a flattened nose. Brusa looks very much like Roscoe Sweeney of the comic strip. Thirteen years ago when Monzon wandered into the Club Atlético Unión, it was Brusa who kept him from going back to the streets. Brusa got a doctor to feed him meat and vitamins. Brusa taught him to box, straightening out the powerful right-hand punch that has knocked out 54 of Monzon's 90 opponents. Monzon has won 70 fights without a loss in the last eight years. Since he knocked out Nino Benvenuti for the title in Rome in November of 1970, he has defended his championship live times and has won all five by knockouts.
> 
> "It's that right hand," his friend said. "The strong right hand is the Brusa trademark. See? All the kids down here are trying to do it. They all want to be like Monzon."
> 
> Santa Fe, with a population of 250,000, sits in a bowl between three rivers, including the huge Paranà, and it manages to be both dusty and humid at the same time. Across the river is the more elegant town of Paranà, which has white villas on hillsides and a gambling casino, but Santa Fe is old and flat and dirty. Monzon was born 30 years ago into a family of 12 in the village of San Javier, 85 miles away in the rice country, and he came to Santa Fe as a kid. From the age of six he sold papers, shined shoes, delivered milk and fought in the streets. If he went to school for more than three or four years, his friends don't seem to remember it. Monzon prefers not to talk about the old days, except to point out that he can write his name on a contract.
> 
> With his 25% of the roughly $800,000 Monzon has earned in the ring in the past two years, Brusa is putting up a building in Santa Fe that will have shops and offices on the lower floors and a health club and solarium on the top. No more of that mud in the basement of the Club Atlético Unión, where Brusa worked with hundreds of young boxers before Monzon came along. Now when he is in Santa Fe, Brusa goes every day to inspect his building. He wears a suit and tie, carries a briefcase, slicks back his hair, and he can't seem to keep from smiling as he looks at all that rising concrete and hears those hammers pounding.
> 
> It didn't bother Brusa that Monzon had been up all night. "We don't need to start training hard for a while yet," the manager said, sipping coffee in a cafe around the corner from his building. "I believe when he's not in hard training, let him do what he wants. A human being is not made to be in training all the time. I can't take him away from beer, Scotch and friends. In the United States they train harder. They hurt themselves more with sparring partners. I don't believe in that system where you can leave your light in the gym. The day Monzon fought Briscoe in Buenos Aires live years ago [it was a draw; under the new Argentine scoring system Monzon would have won, but barely], Briscoe was running on the day of the light. A human is destroyed by too much work."
> 
> What Brusa first saw in Monzon was a skinny kid with a great hunger. "He was blind, had no style, but his mind was at work all the time," Brusa said. "He knew exactly his next move, and he could hit with both hands, but he was too weak from malnutrition to knock people out the way he does today. I took him to a doctor. Now he has two doctors and a biochemist who check him all the time. You couldn't say he's not healthy now, huh?"
> 
> For the first few years Brusa was awakened by phone calls to get Monzon out of jail. There would have been a fight in a saloon, and some furniture smashed. "You know how it is," a friend of Monzon's said. "You go to a bar. Someone insults you. You have to defend your honor." Brusa wouldn't talk about it. "My pupils are my friends, even after they quit," he said.
> 
> Brusa worked out the Monzon style, which is that of a punching machine. "A manager must find a style for a boxer according to what the boxer can do best," he said. "Each man is an individual. You have to hide his bad points and bring out his good ones. Monzon should be a little faster, but his good point is he hits hard and doesn't gel hit hard. Watch the look on the face of his rival and you can tell how hard he hits. Another good point of Monzon's is that he listens to his corner. He hasn't been hurt, has never taken a bad beating. He can fight easily for five more years. Some people say I'm pushing him too hard, too many lights, but he's getting richer, isn't he?"
> 
> Monzon owns a ranch of 1,750 acres and a few cattle and sheep and some fine horses in San Javier. He calls the ranch La Esperanza (The Hope). He has bought houses in Santa Fe for his parents and the parents of his wife, Mercedes Garcia (when they were married as teen-agers, his father-in-law had given him a bed and it was their only furniture). Monzon owns eight apartments in Buenos Aires and four in Santa Fe. Besides the Fiat 128, he owns a yellow and black Lutterall, a custom-made Argentine car, with a klaxon horn. He is building a large house in Santa Fe with two garages and several more apartments, but now he lives in a four-room house with his wife, daughter Silvia, nine, son Abel, five, a newly adopted one-month-old baby boy, and a kitchen full of relatives.
> 
> Arriving home one day recently, Monzon parked the Fiat behind the Lutterall across the street from his house while the neighbors watched. He crossed the street with the graceful, slightly swaggering walk of a man who likes his body. In 1960 the famous Argentine heavyweight, Luis Angel Firpo, said, "Someday in my country a boy of dark skin and jet-black hair will appear with an inexpressive face and a complete lack of emotion in the ring. His fists will remind the world where the Argentine Republic is located." Firpo died before he could see Monzon, but it is not all that bad a description. Monzon has high cheekbones and light copper skin, and he wears his black hair long in a sort of Italian movie-star cut that many of the young men of Santa Fe are copying. He has a brooding, sensual, vaguely dangerous look that will arouse rape fantasies all over the world when he begins appearing in movies next year. He says the only emotion he shows in the ring is hate. As he sat in his living room, his expression seldom changed, except when he threw a quick smile at Abel. "Monzon loves movies, hunting, fishing and Abel more than anything else," a friend had said.
> 
> Abel is a bright little boy who should never have to shine a shoe in his life. He invents broadcasts of Monzon fights on his tape recorder. When he is mad at his father, he makes up new endings in which Monzon is knocked out. Sometimes he goes to the gym with Monzon and cuts up with the fighters. Abel is the kind of kid who talks to waiters and will always have more girl friends than he needs.
> 
> Santa Fe is famous for its beer. From his couch, Monzon dispatched his wife and daughter to bring in a few bottles from the kitchen where the relatives were talking, and Abel climbed into his lap. On the walls and shelves were trophies Monzon has won in the ring. The one he got for knocking out Benvenuti has ribbons on it.
> 
> "Benvenuti had the glamour," Monzon said. "His picture was everywhere. But I knew from the minute we signed the contract I would beat him. I have no fear in the ring. For me, getting into the ring is like coming home and drinking my yerba mate [a South American tea of greenish tint that is drunk through a silver pipe from a decorated gourd]."
> 
> Mercedes Garcia and Silvia brought in the beer and sat down primly and silently while Monzon poured. Monzon's wife once caused a lot of talk by being seen on television in hot pants after one of her husband's fights. Monzon waited for the visitors to agree that the Santa Fe beer was excellent, and someone asked if he would be nervous about working in front of movie cameras for an Italian director next spring. "Those lights won't hurt my eyes anymore," he said.
> 
> Monzon said he remembers Briscoe very well. "Briscoe is tough," he said. "He makes you work. Fighters in the United States like to get in close. I'd rather stay off and punch because I have long arms. The toughest man I ever fought was Emile Griffith [he knocked out Griffith in his second title defense]. He knows all the tricks and can make you do things you don't want to do."
> 
> Abel was riding his father's knee. Monzon almost canceled his last fight, against Tom Bogs in Copenhagen in August, and came home because Mercedes García had phoned and said Abel had a sore throat and fever. Brusa got a doctor to persuade Monzon that Abel was not dying. Monzon waited long enough to knock out Bogs before hurrying back to Santa Fe. The punch that did it was not a trademark Brusa right because, according to Monzon, there is no such thing. "It is the way I hit naturally," Monzon said.
> 
> He looked across the coffee table at his visitors. "They tell me Cassius Clay hates white people. Is that true?" The visitors said they didn't think so. "Well, that's what they tell me," said Monzon.
> 
> Are seven championship fights in two years too many? "No," Monzon said. "I think I'll have two or three more, and then maybe that will be enough and I'll give my title away. But while you're the champion, you've got to make the juice." He smiled and lifted his beer glass. He was wearing two gold rings, a gold bracelet and a gold watch.


@Phantom


----------



## Lester1583

Part 2:


> If you can imagine New York City with no traffic laws and everybody half an hour late to get to the reading of his rich uncle's will, you can begin to picture Buenos Aires traffic. Argentina, which won Olympic medals in the event, should have produced all the world's triple-jump champions of the past century. An Argentine pedestrian can leap eight feet sideways in an instant without even looking around. It appears to be considered unmanly for a driver to slow down. Some say it is the influence of Juan Fangio, the former world champion race driver from Argentina. But put one of Fangio's big machines in the control of a Buenos Aires cabdriver and you would scare half the Grand Prix drivers right off the track.
> 
> Argentina has at least a dozen different identifiable groups of rebels. Some of them practice bombing, shooting, bank robbery and kidnapping, and there may be 14 or more candidates for president in March if the country holds its first election since 1963, three years before the army took over the country again. In the last 30 years Argentina has had 12 presidents, and eight of them were generals. Argentina's most famous citizen has long been rumored to be Hitler, but a cabdriver recently said this story is untrue-Hitler went to Paraguay. The Buenos Aires police can make a person disappear into a dungeon without food, water or access to a telephone anytime they wish and for about as long as they care. There is a joke that a man was passing in front of a police station and got splattered with mud from a pothole. "What a lousy country," he said, and was arrested by a cop in the doorway. In the commissioner's office the man identified himself as a general and was released with apologies. He asked to speak to the cop who had grabbed him. They took the general to the cell where the cop had been looked up for his error. The general looked into the peephole and said, "See?"
> 
> "The country doesn't work, but the people do," said an Argentine businessman at lunch one Sunday at a yacht club on the River Plate. There are dozens of parks and sporting clubs in Buenos Aires and many soccer stadiums and polo fields. The people in the streets look prosperous, but prices have doubled in a year and the peso is so weak foreign banks won't touch it (Monzon has a bank account in New York). The country is allowed to eat beef only every other week. Yet there is hardly a good fish restaurant in Buenos Aires. "An Argentine isn't interested in fish, he wants to eat meat." said the businessman.
> 
> Buenos Aires is bigger than Paris or Berlin, both of which it somewhat resembles. Playboy magazine is banned. When a dress-shop owner recently celebrated the arrival of spring-which comes to Argentina in September-by decorating an otherwise nude mannequin with nothing but flowers, government officials pasted paper strips labeled CENSORED over the dummy. If an Argentine from the provinces achieves some sort of fame, it is usually followed by a move to Buenos Aires. Not Monzon. "They rush around too much there. I prefer the country life," he said.
> 
> Luna Park is the Madison Square Garden of Argentina. The building covers a city block of Buenos Aires near the waterfront. Inside, an iron fence with prongs like pitchforks keeps the people in the cheap seats away from swells in the good seats on fight night. The only Monzon bout that has ever tilled Luna Park was the title fight with Griffith. Monzon beat the popular Argentine middleweight champion Jorge Fernandez twice in Luna Park and got whistled at by the crowd. The Briscoe fight will be the fourth time Monzon has appeared in Luna Park as the world champion. Briscoe wanted the fight in the United States, where Monzon has never fought. Briscoe was quoted in an Argentine magazine as saying the gate would be twice as big in New York and that Monzon insisted on Luna Park because the judges would be inclined to be more friendly. In fact, Monzon says he wanted the fight in Rome. Brusa chose Luna Park because of a tax arrangement with the arena owner. He says he will not allow Monzon to fight in the United States because taxes are too high there. "And if I knocked out Briscoe in the U.S., they would probably claim it was a low punch," Monzon said.
> 
> On this day Monzon was laughing and in an amiable humor even though he had just moved into one of his Buenos Aires apartments and gone into hard training in the Luna Park gym. He does not care for training because he says it makes him feel like a hired killer. "When I feel my best is in the ring on the night of a fight," he said. "I feel mean but good. But all this training, it's the worst part, you start to have doubts."
> 
> Monzon had risen at 6:30 to run on the waterfront. For a month before a fight Monzon runs 45 minutes every morning, then has a breakfast of grapefruit juice, two soft-boiled eggs, coffee, jam, bread and butter. At noon he eats fruit. In the afternoon he spends an hour and a half at the gym and works up to boxing nine rounds a day before he begins easing off. At dinner Monzon has steak, salad, vegetables, fruit and a dessert called dulce y queso-cheese with a slab of jellied sweet potato or quince. Then he watches television or goes to a movie. He seldom goes anywhere else in Buenos Aires.
> 
> Abel had come to the gym with him and was dancing around in the ring while his father got his hands taped. "Look at that kid," said Monzon. "He can be a fighter if he wants to, but I'd just as soon he grew up and learned how to handle the investments." Not long before, at La Esperanza, a steer was to be barbecued. As the landowner, Monzon was handed the knife. He looked at the steer for a while and then handed the knife back to a gaucho, who plunged it into the steer's throat. Monzon turned his back and hid Abel's face from the spurting blood.
> 
> A friend walked up to Monzon in the gym and said, "Hey, ***** [a fairly common Argentine nickname, along with Gordo (fat) and Flaco (skinny)], I can't make it to the end of the month. Lend me 10,000 pesos." Monzon reached for his pants, and the friend said, "No, no, it's a joke." For some reason everybody thought it was funny. Except Monzon. Friends say he has no sense of humor, but it very well could be the other way around.
> 
> On a Saturday night after Monzon had moved to Buenos Aires to train for Briscoe, Brusa brought down another protégé from Santa Fe-an unbeaten junior welterweight named Daniel Gonzalez-for a light in Luna Park with an ex-Argentine champion. Brusa says Gonzalez will be the next star of his stable of 35 amateurs and 10 pros. "Pro fighters are knocking on my door all the time," he said, "wanting me to take them over. But I deal only with those who started with me as kids."
> 
> Monzon was at ringside with one of his doctors, one of his lawyers, a dozen friends and Abel. Before the fight Monzon was not introduced to the crowd, dozens of whom peered like prisoners through the cheap seat bars. But a lot of people recognized him and kept watching for his reactions. Monzon clapped for Gonzalez but could not yell much because he had a sore throat, which his doctor says always happens to him for a while when he quits smoking.
> 
> Gonzalez won an easy decision in a fight that drew choruses of whistles, and his left eyebrow was cut open. Monzon consoled him while Gonzalez was being sewn up and Brusa was collecting his share of the gate-$340. Then Monzon led a group that had grown to nearly two dozen across the street from Luna Park to an Italian restaurant called Napoli. Watching the champion walk through the door, the doctor said, "You know, people keep talking about his right, but it's his left that really gets them. He sets them up with it-knock, knock, knock, one after the other. Then he puts them cold with his right."
> 
> The waiters pulled together enough tables to spread the crowd the width of the room, laid out several kinds of wine (good Argentine wine is less than $1 a bottle) and began serving salads, chickens, hams, bread and pasta. They also found a few pieces of beef from somewhere although it was a beefless week. It was already after I a.m., but Abel sat beside his father. "Abel goes everywhere I go," Monzon said laughing. "The only place he won't go with me is to do my running in the morning."
> 
> "I don't like it," Abel said.
> 
> Monzon laughed again. Brusa and the doctor watched as he drank a glass of wine and poured another. Sitting alone at a separate table was a young Santa Fe amateur, Norberto Cabrera, who became a piece of Argentine boxing lore by knocking out his own teammate in a dormitory fight at the Munich Olympics. The teammate was hurt badly enough that doctors barred him from fighting further in the Olympics. Cabrera sat as if in exile, but Monzon saw him, called him over to the table and had a waiter bring him a chair. "See," a friend of Monzon's whispered, "Monzon is not a monster. He's only a little distrustful of people at first."
> 
> His eye bandaged, Gonzalez went to Monzon and asked what he should eat. "You eat the white meat. Nothing else," Monzon said, adding a little soda to Gonzalez' wine. Gonzalez returned to his seat and kept looking at a platter of fried potatoes in front of him. Finally he put some on his plate and poured a glass of wine.
> 
> Monzon was saying he did not blame Luna Park fans for not supporting him in the past. "It was because my opponents were inferior," he said. That could be said fairly well about the opponents Monzon will be offered should he beat Briscoe. If there is a young middleweight of championship class coming up anywhere soon, he is in hiding. By beating Briscoe, Monzon should be able to hold on to the title for a few years without much trouble. But Briscoe is what is known as a Philadelphia fighter-tough, hostile, aggressive. A lot of boxers have stayed out of his way.
> 
> Monzon had not tried to find out if Briscoe had changed any since 1967. "I don't care what my opponent has been doing," Monzon said. "I don't look at films of them in the ring, and I don't read stories about them. When the time comes, Brusa will tell me how to fight them. That's what he gets his 25% for. Until then, I don't think about them."
> 
> It was after 3 a.m. by now. More people had joined the table. Monzon laughed loudly when he saw someone drinking a glass of milk. He jumped up and grabbed a camera to take a picture of this singular event. Not even Abel was drinking milk. The champion sat back down and looked at the people around him with a grin. A question was asked: Did Monzon consider himself to be one of the great middleweight champions of history?
> 
> Monzon's gold bracelet dangled as he sipped from the wineglass. "Sugar Ray Robinson never did what I've done-winning six straight championship fights by knockouts," he said. "I guess that means I'm pretty good, huh?"


@Phantom


----------



## dyna

Rare footage of Jeff 'Candy Slim' Merritt


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Rare footage of Jeff 'Candy Slim' Merritt


Like a technical Foreman.

No wonder Ali avoided him.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Like a technical Foreman.
> 
> No wonder Ali avoided him.


So about Wilder vs Ali.....


----------



## dyna

Even the Germans had given up on him.


"In the early 1900s, James J. Jeffries looked good physically when he got into the ring against Jack Johnson after six years' inactivity but could offer only gameness in a mismatch. Joe Louis, after a two-year absence, moved like an old man the at the age of 35 when Ezzard Charles outboxed him....Now it is Maske's turn. He says he wants to avenge the only loss he ever suffered."-Graham Houston

"This is not good for the sport...If things go normally, Henry doesn't have a ghost of a chance. He can't have any reflexes left."-Sven Ottke

"Either he's bored and has earned too much money and doesn't know what he should do now. Or he needs money. I can't imagine that he'll beat Hill."-Dariusz Michalczewski


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Even the Germans had given up on him.


That's what this thread is all about.

Absolute legendness.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> That's what this thread is all about.
> 
> Absolute legendness.


And after I tried for 10 minutes to look for the betting odds of the fight through the advanced search function of google.
I quickly realized that the bookies didn't even bother to give Maske a chance.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> I quickly realized that the bookies didn't even bother to give Maske a chance.


And these oldfags are still crying with Hagler like it's 1987.


----------



## Lester1583

There are ATG's.

There are legends.

There are messi's and cristiano's.

And then there are Dreamers Deceivers.








@Vic
@Axe Murderer


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## tommygun711

@Lester1583 @dyna @Phantom @Bill Jincock @Bokaj @Vic @LittleRed @thegee @ whoever would give a fuck really

Who would win Jerry Quarry vs Cleveland Willams?

Say the Quarry that destroyed Mac Foster vs the Williams from the first Liston bout.

I'd make my own thread but I doubt it'd garner interest.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> @Lester1583 @dyna @Phantom @Bill Jincock @Bokaj @Vic @LittleRed @thegee @ whoever would give a fuck really
> 
> Who would win Jerry Quarry vs Cleveland Willams?
> 
> Say the Quarry that destroyed Mac Foster vs the Williams from the first Liston bout.
> 
> I'd make my own thread but I doubt it'd garner interest.


I think it'd go like Quarry-Shavers, wild firefight with Quarry coming out on top.

Quarry is brilliant on the counter and Cleveland would play right into Jerry's game.

Cleveland ultimately doesn't have the boxing mind to use his height and reach to his advantage, neither does he have the output to overwhelm Quarry like Frazier did nor does he have the punch resistance to take the counters Joe took.


----------



## Bokaj

tommygun711 said:


> @Lester1583 @dyna @Phantom @Bill Jincock @Bokaj @Vic @LittleRed @thegee @ whoever would give a fuck really
> 
> Who would win Jerry Quarry vs Cleveland Willams?
> 
> Say the Quarry that destroyed Mac Foster vs the Williams from the first Liston bout.
> 
> I'd make my own thread but I doubt it'd garner interest.


Have to go with Quarry here. Williams had fast hands to go with his speed but not much else, and Quarry loved going up against big punchers.


----------



## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


> @Lester1583 @dyna @Phantom @Bill Jincock @Bokaj @Vic @LittleRed @thegee @ whoever would give a fuck really
> 
> Who would win Jerry Quarry vs Cleveland Willams?
> 
> Say the Quarry that destroyed Mac Foster vs the Williams from the first Liston bout.
> 
> I'd make my own thread but I doubt it'd garner interest.


tommy, I think Jerry would have won via the same route he beat Mac Foster...by a similar mid rounds tko....... This ain't Liston or Foreman we're talking about....I wouldn't like to think of what they'd have done to Jerry....(disclaimer: despite what lovable old bald & fat GF had to say about not wanting to fight JQ)....and Williams wasn't even a Ron Lyle...Lyle had a better chin and was smarter. Jerry would have had another pelt to be proud of...another big, strong hard hitting heavyweight that he would have feasted on. For some reason, I fantasize that an accidental low blow, or a thumb in the eye from Williams would have torqued off Quarry to make him really tee off on and be his best vs Big Cat, and the ref would have had to rescue him from a vengeful, vindictive Quarry by round 6 or 7.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> I think it'd go like Quarry-Shavers, wild firefight with Quarry coming out on top.
> 
> Quarry is brilliant on the counter and Cleveland would play right into Jerry's game.
> 
> Cleveland ultimately doesn't have the boxing mind to use his height and reach to his advantage, neither does he have the output to overwhelm Quarry like Frazier did nor does he have the punch resistance to take the counters Joe took.





Bokaj said:


> Have to go with Quarry here. Williams had fast hands to go with his speed but not much else, and Quarry loved going up against big punchers.





Phantom said:


> tommy, I think Jerry would have won via the same route he beat Mac Foster...by a similar mid rounds tko....... This ain't Liston or Foreman we're talking about....I wouldn't like to think of what they'd have done to Jerry....(disclaimer: despite what lovable old bald & fat GF had to say about not wanting to fight JQ)....and Williams wasn't even a Ron Lyle...Lyle had a better chin and was smarter. Jerry would have had another pelt to be proud of...another big, strong hard hitting heavyweight that he would have feasted on. For some reason, I fantasize that an accidental low blow, or a thumb in the eye from Williams would have torqued off Quarry to make him really tee off on and be his best vs Big Cat, and the ref would have had to rescue him from a vengeful, vindictive Quarry by round 6 or 7.


I tend to agree with all of you, but is it possible that you guys are underrating Williams. I don't think it's out of the question that Williams could cut Quarry early on and really go after him. Problem is Quarry was tough and he probably had the chin to take Williams' best shot. Williams never really had a win over someone as good as prime Quarry whereas Quarry was very proven vs dangerous punchers.

I think it's interesting that Foreman apparently ducked Quarry. that may have not been the best style for big george


----------



## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


> I tend to agree with all of you, but is it possible that you guys are underrating Williams. I don't think it's out of the question that Williams could cut Quarry early on and really go after him. Problem is Quarry was tough and he probably had the chin to take Williams' best shot. Williams never really had a win over someone as good as prime Quarry whereas Quarry was very proven vs dangerous punchers.
> 
> *I think it's interesting that Foreman apparently ducked Quarry. that may have not been the best style for big george[*/QUOTE]Maybe not, but the problem Quarry would have had right from the get-go would have been George's daunting habit of shoving a guy who came at him too aggressively,...like he did vs Boone Kirkman and Joe Frazier...Foreman shoved Kirkman right from the bell and had him on the deck,...and I believe shook up Boone from that time on. Like some boxing announcer once said (can't remember who)..."introduce your opponent to the canvas early, whether it's a kd or any other way,...it's demoralizing..."....would Jerry have been able to avoid that? Foreman had so much more on the ball than Mathis, Foster, Lyle and Shavers, besides just being more powerful than any of them. Depends really,...I'd give the JQ of '69-'70 the best shot...that's before he fully matured and his physique got thicker.


----------



## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


> I tend to agree with all of you, but is it possible that you guys are underrating Williams. I don't think it's out of the question that Williams could cut Quarry early on and really go after him. Problem is Quarry was tough and he probably had the chin to take Williams' best shot. Williams never really had a win over someone as good as prime Quarry whereas Quarry was very proven vs dangerous punchers.
> 
> I think it's interesting that Foreman apparently ducked Quarry. that may have not been the best style for big george


QUOTE]Maybe not, but the problem Quarry would have had right from the get-go would have been George's daunting habit of shoving a guy who came at him too aggressively,...like he did vs Boone Kirkman and Joe Frazier...Foreman shoved Kirkman right from the bell and had him on the deck,...and I believe shook up Boone from that time on. Like some boxing announcer once said (can't remember who)..."introduce your opponent to the canvas early, whether it's a kd or any other way,...it's demoralizing..."....would Jerry have been able to avoid that? Foreman had so much more on the ball than Mathis, Foster, Lyle and Shavers, besides just being more powerful than any of them. Depends really,...I'd give the JQ of '69-'70 the best shot...that's before he fully matured and his physique got thicker.


----------



## tommygun711

Phantom said:


> QUOTE]Maybe not, but the problem Quarry would have had right from the get-go would have been G*eorge's daunting habit of shoving a guy who came at him too aggressively,...l*ike he did vs Boone Kirkman and Joe Frazier...Foreman shoved Kirkman right from the bell and had him on the deck,...and I believe shook up Boone from that time on. Like some boxing announcer once said (can't remember who)..."introduce your opponent to the canvas early, whether it's a kd or any other way,...it's demoralizing..."....would Jerry have been able to avoid that? Foreman had so much more on the ball than Mathis, Foster, Lyle and Shavers, besides just being more powerful than any of them. Depends really,...I'd give the JQ of '69-'70 the best shot...that's before he fully matured and his physique got thicker.


It's true, Foreman would probably be very physical with Quarry very early on.

People go on and on about Foreman's lack of defense, particularly in his early days but he was quite good at parrying and controlling his opponent


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> I think it's interesting that Foreman apparently ducked Quarry. that may have not been the best style for big george


I think Frazier had some success with a countering style against Foreman in the 2nd fight.
He was boxing quite beautifully.

Obviously it was too little and too late, but a natural pure counter puncher like Jerry (Especially a primed one in a hypothetical H2H) would have expanded a lot on that success.

I also think that a 1969-70 Frazier with the gameplan of the Foreman-Frazier II fight would have really troubled Foreman.


----------



## Lester1583

tommygun711 said:


> I don't think it's out of the question that Williams could cut Quarry early on and really go after him.


It's not out of the question - Williams was fast and explosive enough.

More often than not Quarry's toughness and counter punching skills would prevail though.


----------



## Lester1583

Roy Jones rare interview 1999





@Zopilote, at 2:09 - "the best fighter I've ever saw live?"
@Bogotazo 
@bballchump11 
@MichiganWarrior 
@dyna


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> I think Frazier had some success with a countering style against Foreman in the 2nd fight.
> He was boxing quite beautifully.
> 
> Obviously it was too little and too late, but a natural pure counter puncher like Jerry (Especially a primed one in a hypothetical H2H) would have expanded a lot on that success.
> 
> I also think that a 1969-70 Frazier with the gameplan of the Foreman-Frazier II fight would have really troubled Foreman.


Never really saw Frazier have a lot of success with lateral movement except for that Foreman rematch. It just seemed so abstract to his natural style. I'd expect more or less the same result if Joe changed his gameplan, but he might last a few more rounds.

Quarry had a few more tools than Joe, lateral movement and counter punching was more in his wheelhouse. 


Lester1583 said:


> It's not out of the question - Williams was fast and explosive enough.
> 
> More often than not Quarry's toughness and counter punching skills would prevail though.


It's the speed and combination punching that is making me think twice about it. The punchers that Quarry feasted on were all notably slower than him. Williams would have faster hands here. Quarry could be hurt and knocked down by inferior opponents. That Chuvalo knockout is weird as fuck.

The sort of combinations Williams was landing on Liston's head in that first bout were seldom seen in the HW division at the time. Kind of reminds me of a HW roy jones the way he would string hooks together.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> Never really saw Frazier have a lot of success with lateral movement except for that Foreman rematch. It just seemed so abstract to his natural style. I'd expect more or less the same result if Joe changed his gameplan, but he might last a few more rounds.
> 
> Quarry had a few more tools than Joe, lateral movement and counter punching was more in his wheelhouse.


I think the Foreman rematch was the only match where he actually trained for it.



tommygun711 said:


> The sort of combinations Williams was landing on Liston's head in that first bout were seldom seen in the HW division at the time. Kind of reminds me of a HW roy jones the way he would string hooks together.


Eddie Machen also bamboozled Liston early on by quintupling his left hooks.



tommygun711 said:


>


It's easy to call a fluke, but that was a bullshit trick from the ref.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> Eddie Machen also bamboozled Liston early on by quintupling his left hooks.


Don't really remember that bout that much. Kinda forgettable in terms of action. I do remember Machen having success with his negative style, jab and movement. Machen was a bit of a Jimmy Young lite, with more power and perhaps less talent. Interesting comment Machen had about his draw with Williams:

"In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen






I thought Williams won that one :conf


----------



## tommygun711




----------



## Lester1583

Never equalled


----------



## Lester1583

Some know that Spinks - Gregory 2 got cancelled.

The Qawi-Spinks rematch is rarely talked about - it was officially scheduled but got cancelled too.


----------



## Conall Cernach

Lester1583 said:


> Some know that Spinks - Gregory 2 got cancelled.
> 
> The Qawi-Spinks rematch is rarely talked about - it was officially scheduled but got cancelled too.


Too bad Eddie never got a rematch at Rahway.


----------



## Lester1583

Monzon announces retirement:





Some familiar faces at the party, @Phantom


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Monzon announces retirement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some familiar faces at the party, @Phantom


Wow Lester...thanks a lot. Never thought I'd see this. When Monzon retired, back in the "stone age" of the 70's (twas a great stone age nevertheless) there was so little information about this great fighter....
There was Rodrigo there with him...they were the middleweight Ali and Frazier...though both were better IMO....maybe Ali and Joe were the Monzon and Valdez of the heavies...I like that better.
Again thanks...I always love the stuff you post!


----------



## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


> Don't really remember that bout that much. Kinda forgettable in terms of action. I do remember Machen having success with his negative style, jab and movement. Machen was a bit of a Jimmy Young lite, with more power and perhaps less talent. Interesting comment Machen had about his draw with Williams:
> 
> *"In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought Williams won that one :conf


Very interesting insight...and I always thought Eddie Machen was an interesting character.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Never equalled


I thought Donald Curry was gonna be around for years...he was soooo spectacular and great vs McCrory. I actually thought he was part SRR and Joe Louis...or at the very least, he had certain aspects of them in his style.


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> Escopeta


I tagged you - maybe you missed it, maybe you read it before.

Anyway, just in case - knowing your passion for anything Monzon-related - check out these two links:
http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/legendary-legends.66636/page-27#post-3054769
http://checkhookboxing.com/index.php?threads/legendary-legends.66636/page-27#post-3054770


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> There was Rodrigo there with him...


What was impressive about Valdez is that he was a smallish middleweight even back then.

And yet so dangerous.

Would be a welter today probably.

A better Trinidad without the hype.


----------



## tommygun711

Phantom said:


> Very interesting insight...and I always thought Eddie Machen was an interesting character.


He was indeed. He was another well rounded talented HW that didn't necessarily excel at anything. In his first 10 bouts he won all by KO, which is strange considering how his style developed. I never saw a lot of power from Machen. Like Liston, he had a weird death after he retired from boxing.

I've been watching a lot of old HWs lately. Found an old Jimmy Young fight at a flea market that you may be interested in, will send you a link when I get the chance :good


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> What was impressive about Valdez is that he was a smallish middleweight even back then.
> 
> And yet so dangerous.
> 
> Would be a welter today probably.
> 
> A better Trinidad without the hype.


He would have killed Trinidad.....and so many others.


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Scream for me, Monzofreaks, scream for me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Phantom


Monzon was the Clint Eastwood of boxers....pure and simple.


Lester1583 said:


> Part 2:
> 
> @Phantom


Lester, I thought I had lapped up everything about Monzon, and I was wrong! Excellent read,...:happy


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> And these oldfags are still crying with Hagler like it's 1987.


Lester, what's your assessment of Maske? I've been peripherally aware of him for years,...let's put it that way, but I think I may have been missing something or another.....


----------



## dyna




----------



## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


> He was indeed. He was another well rounded talented HW that didn't necessarily excel at anything. In his first 10 bouts he won all by KO, which is strange considering how his style developed. I never saw a lot of power from Machen. Like Liston, he had a weird death after he retired from boxing.
> 
> I've been watching a lot of old HWs lately. Found an old Jimmy Young fight at a flea market that you may be interested in, will send you a link when I get the chance :good


Tommy, consider all the problems Machen caused for Liston,...and to qualify that, I'd say that anyone who wasn't caught, brutallized and crushed, especially within a few rounds, gave Liston problems. So contemplate, like I have, what Jimmy Young would have been able to do with Liston. I've been condemned my various posters for suggesting it, but I believe that Young would have had another big puncher's scalp with Liston. If he thought Mary Marshall was a riddle and Eddie was tricky,......


----------



## dyna

@Duo

Patterson would have outboxed Liston in a third fight.


----------



## tommygun711

Phantom said:


> Tommy, consider all the problems Machen caused for Liston,...and to qualify that, I'd say that anyone who wasn't caught, brutallized and crushed, especially within a few rounds, gave Liston problems. So contemplate, like I have, what Jimmy Young would have been able to do with Liston. I've been condemned my various posters for suggesting it, but I believe that Young would have had another big puncher's scalp with Liston. If he thought Mary Marshall was a riddle and Eddie was tricky,......


That's a good point. Machen, for me wasn't as good as an operator as prime Jimmy Young.. the Young from 74-77'. A concern for Young, as usual would be his lack of power vs someone who is pretty durable. I think Liston's long jab and technical ability might separate him from the likes of Foreman and Lyle, who were kind of crude vs Young.

There's a possibility that Young could capitalize on what Ali, Marshall, and Machen did, I think he would make it extremely close vs Liston, but perhaps the more aggressive fighter would take the decision. From what I understand Folley was able to unload huge right hands on Liston even after being knocked down, Young's right hand wasn't too shabby when he got it working


----------



## Duo

dyna said:


> @Duo
> 
> Patterson would have outboxed Liston in a third fight.


Is this what you are looking for? (From the former ShitHoleBoxing/BN69, "What if Floyd Patterson beat Jimmy Ellis?," January 2, 2011 - MY original posts, so fuck 'em!!!):

@RC, you submitted around half a dozen posts in that three page thread, so perhaps you remember these three posts of mine on Patterson-Liston III reassembled together here as one (the second post a reply to one of your own)..:

*The aging Liston, at least three years Floyd's senior, would certainly have set his sights on Patterson. Floyd had redeemed himself for his title reigns as a former champion against Machen, Chuvalo and Cooper. With Ellis, he had gone the championship distance and proved at 36 that he could perform well over that limit. Both he and Sonny had competed multiple times in Stockholm as former champions. I think there's a real chance that Patterson-Liston III takes place in Stockholm during early 1969, and that this time Floyd turns the tables by replicating the Chuvalo template, ducking through the corners, moving laterally, and fully utilizing his enormous advantage in hand speed.

Sonny had massacred Patterson twice. Prior to that however, so did Ingo. That Liston previously wiped out Floyd does not guarantee he would do it a third time. Patterson had tremendous heart, and now the wisdom of maturity and veteran experience. Sonny's overconfidence would be a greater liability to him than Floyd's self doubt. 22 rounds with Quarry and 15 with Ellis would have been a very high quality of competition for him to enter Liston III with, much better preparation than the diet of mostly tomato cans Sonny had been feeding on.

From my perspective, it's critical to review Patterson-Chuvalo in speculating on Patterson-Liston III. While an early knockdown by Sonny is extremely plausible, there is no grim straight ahead charge in the offing here.

Billy Joiner went seven rounds and then the ten round distance in back to back fights with Sonny at this time. Billy weighed 189 and 195 for these two encounters. Leotis Martin weighed 199. Floyd, always in top condition, had weighed as much as 200 pounds (although 188-189 may have been optimal), and had acquired valuable post title big man experience in chopping down Powell and Herring. (Todd Herring was in Stockholm, so Swedish fans already knew Patterson could beat a decent heavyweight of Liston's size.) Summerlin, Marshall, Whitehurst, Machen, Joiner and Martin demonstrated throughout Liston's career span that it was possible to scale under 200 pounds and still hang with Sonny if movement and intelligent boxing was applied. Floyd was greater and more talented than all six combined. In 1969, he also had the experience and smarts missing when he took on Liston in 1962 and 1963. We are now discussing a Patterson who has a dozen more fights and half a dozen more years of seasoning behind him. We also need to factor in that he now knew how well he could respond to going the championship distance, waters the older and heavier Liston had never tread in.

This may well have been the most confident Patterson we would have ever seen, coming off a win with Ellis. Machen, Cooper and Chuvalo were a trio of contenders frozen out by D'Amato during his reigns, and he had since discovered at their expense that he was much better than he might have believed without ever taking them on. He was better against Eddie than Sonny had been, ending an 11 fight three year unbeaten streak by Machen. Veteran Cooper, who had been in the ring with Ali twice, rated Floyd's hand speed as superior, an assessment which Floyd had to have found inspiring. Patterson-Cooper was the final decisive loss of 'Enery's career, and not on cuts either, but by clean knockout.

Sonny was obviously laboring in the late rounds of the win over Clark, huffing and puffing, an observation Cosell and Dundee noted and commented on. Patterson would likely plan to exploit this, thus scheme to take Sonny deep. He was far better suited to box and move on Liston than Frazier was to attempt likewise in his rematch with Foreman.

Also, it must be remembered that Floyd himself made the decision to defend against Liston in 1962. In his own mind, he may well have felt it was necessary for the credibility of the WBA Title he had just won to defend it against an opponent who previously starched him twice. Once taking it from Ellis, Liston is somebody everybody would have been thinking about, and Sonny had just returned to American television two months prior to Ellis-Patterson with the win over Clark, signaling a certain measure of return to credibility after Lewiston.

Foreman-Frazier II? Perhaps. But again, Floyd was extremely well conditioned and disciplined. He had obtained tremendous experience and seasoning since Liston II. Now there was a brand new understanding of how well he could perform to the final bell over the championship distance, something he never knew before. That lack of championship distance experience cost him against Ellis, as he over paced himself with excessive caution. If Valan had awarded Floyd the decision which AP scored in his favor 7-4-4, Sonny would not have benefited from the same self doubt Ellis escaped by.

Joe Frazier was clearly shot by Foreman II, over 20 pounds past his best weight, over five years past his physical peak, and five years older than George.

Patterson was never shot as a fighter, even when he stopped competing in 1972. He maintained his peak weight even into his late 30s, a virtually unknown achievement for a heavyweight champion. He was at least three years younger than Liston. Conditioning, youth, speed, experience, mobility and skill were all in his favor. The championship distance experience with Ellis completed his education as a boxer.

Liston II was six years behind them, and a lot had changed. The veneer of invincibility Sonny brought with him into those earlier bouts with Floyd had been forever shattered. With a bad back, Patterson had lasted twice as long with a peak Ali as Liston had done in two bouts. Floyd knew he had the bigger heart, one of the few things he did not doubt about himself. He also knew he could turn the tables on a foe who had previously wiped him out unceremoniously, like Ingo, and very possibly yes, like Sonny.

By having consoled Liston following Lewiston as Patterson did, things could never be the same between them as they were in 1962 and 1963. Floyd was not intimidated by Ingo when he regained the crown in 1960, and he would not be intimidated by Sonny in 1969. He would be very highly motivated though, and much, much smarter. Liston, on the other hand, just might take Floyd for granted. The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of Patterson-Liston III in Stockholm. Floyd wasn't shy about taking on opponents who had previously stopped him. He returned the favor to Ingo twice. Looking at how Martin-Liston ended with Sonny on his face, I have to wonder. Does Floyd beat Leotis to the mark, and have another championship round performance on a huffing and puffing aging Liston end with another left hook from hell, and another legendary reversal of history?
*


----------



## Phantom

Duo said:


> Is this what you are looking for? (From the former ShitHoleBoxing/BN69, "What if Floyd Patterson beat Jimmy Ellis?," January 2, 2011 - MY original posts, so fuck 'em!!!):
> 
> @RC, you submitted around half a dozen posts in that three page thread, so perhaps you remember these three posts of mine on Patterson-Liston III reassembled together here as one (the second post a reply to one of your own)..:
> 
> 
> 
> The aging Liston, at least three years Floyd's senior, would certainly have set his sights on Patterson. Floyd had redeemed himself for his title reigns as a former champion against Machen, Chuvalo and Cooper. With Ellis, he had gone the championship distance and proved at 36 that he could perform well over that limit. Both he and Sonny had competed multiple times in Stockholm as former champions. I think there's a real chance that Patterson-Liston III takes place in Stockholm during early 1969, and that this time Floyd turns the tables by replicating the Chuvalo template, ducking through the corners, moving laterally, and fully utilizing his enormous advantage in hand speed.
> 
> Sonny had massacred Patterson twice. Prior to that however, so did Ingo. That Liston previously wiped out Floyd does not guarantee he would do it a third time. Patterson had tremendous heart, and now the wisdom of maturity and veteran experience. Sonny's overconfidence would be a greater liability to him than Floyd's self doubt. 22 rounds with Quarry and 15 with Ellis would have been a very high quality of competition for him to enter Liston III with, much better preparation than the diet of mostly tomato cans Sonny had been feeding on.
> 
> 
> 
> From my perspective, it's critical to review Patterson-Chuvalo in speculating on Patterson-Liston III. While an early knockdown by Sonny is extremely plausible, there is no grim straight ahead charge in the offing here.
> 
> Billy Joiner went seven rounds and then the ten round distance in back to back fights with Sonny at this time. Billy weighed 189 and 195 for these two encounters. Leotis Martin weighed 199. Floyd, always in top condition, had weighed as much as 200 pounds (although 188-189 may have been optimal), and had acquired valuable post title big man experience in chopping down Powell and Herring. (Todd Herring was in Stockholm, so Swedish fans already knew Patterson could beat a decent heavyweight of Liston's size.) Summerlin, Marshall, Whitehurst, Machen, Joiner and Martin demonstrated throughout Liston's career span that it was possible to scale under 200 pounds and still hang with Sonny if movement and intelligent boxing was applied. Floyd was greater and more talented than all six combined. In 1969, he also had the experience and smarts missing when he took on Liston in 1962 and 1963. We are now discussing a Patterson who has a dozen more fights and half a dozen more years of seasoning behind him. We also need to factor in that he now knew how well he could respond to going the championship distance, waters the older and heavier Liston had never tread in.
> 
> This may well have been the most confident Patterson we would have ever seen, coming off a win with Ellis. Machen, Cooper and Chuvalo were a quartet of contenders frozen out by Cus D'Amato during Floyd's reigns, and he had since discovered at their expense that he was much better than he might have believed without ever taking them on. He was better against Eddie than Sonny had been, ending an 11 fight three year unbeaten streak by Machen. Veteran Cooper, who had been in the ring with Ali twice, rated Floyd's hand speed as superior, an assessment which Floyd had to have found inspiring. Patterson-Cooper was the final decisive loss of 'Enry's career, and not on cuts either, but by clean knockout.
> 
> Sonny was obviously laboring in the late rounds of the win over Clark, huffing and puffing, an observation Cosell and Dundee noted and commented on. Patterson would likely plan to exploit this, thus scheme to take Sonny deep. He was far better suited to box and move on Liston than Frazier was to attempt likewise in his rematch with Foreman.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, it must be remembered that Floyd himself made the decision to defend against Liston in 1962. In his own mind, he may well have felt it was necessary for the credibility of the WBA Title he had just won to defend it against an opponent who previously starched him twice. Once taking it from Ellis, Liston is somebody everybody would have been thinking about, and Sonny had just returned to American television two months prior to Ellis-Patterson with the win over Clark, signaling a certain measure of return to credibility after Lewiston.
> 
> Foreman-Frazier II? Perhaps. But again, Floyd was extremely well conditioned and disciplined. He had obtained tremendous experience and seasoning since Liston II. Now there was a brand new understanding of how well he could perform to the final bell over the championship distance, something he never knew before. That lack of championship distance experience cost him against Ellis, as he over paced himself with excessive caution. If Valan had awarded Floyd the decision which AP scored in his favor 7-4-4, Sonny would not have benefited from the same self doubt Ellis escaped by.
> 
> Joe Frazier was clearly shot by Foreman II, over 20 pounds past his best weight, over five years past his physical peak, and five years older than George.
> 
> Patterson was never shot as a fighter, even when he stopped competing in 1972. He maintained his peak weight even into his late 30s, a virtually unknown achievement for a heavyweight champion. He was at least three years younger than Liston. Conditioning, youth, speed, experience, mobility and skill were all in his favor. The championship distance experience with Ellis completed his education as a boxer.
> 
> Liston II was six years behind them, and a lot had changed. The veneer of invincibility Sonny brought with him into those earlier bouts with Floyd had been forever shattered. With a bad back, Patterson had lasted twice as long with a peak Ali as Liston had done in two bouts. Floyd knew he had the bigger heart, one of the few things he did not doubt about himself. He also knew he could turn the tables on a foe who had previously wiped him out unceremoniously, like Ingo, and very possibly yes, like Sonny.
> 
> By having consoled Liston following Lewiston as Patterson did, things could never be the same between them as they were in 1962 and 1963. Floyd was not intimidated by Ingo when he regained the crown in 1960, and he would not be intimidated by Sonny in 1969. He would be very highly motivated though, and much, much smarter. Liston, on the other hand, just might take Floyd for granted. The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of Patterson-Liston III in Stockholm. Floyd wasn't shy about taking on opponents who had previously stopped him. He returned the favor to Ingo twice. Looking at how Martin-Liston ended with Sonny on his face, I have to wonder. Does Floyd beat Leotis to the mark, and have another championship round performance on a huffing and puffing aging Liston end with another left hook from hell, and another legendary reversal of history?


I remember the thread, as well as your's and my posts...but are you reposting them? If you did, then I can't see them...they didn't show up.


----------



## Duo

Phantom said:


> I remember the thread, as well as your's and my posts...but are you reposting them? If you did, then I can't see them...they didn't show up.


atsch

Aw, damn it! I don't know what to do then. (Maybe you could see those posts if you highlighted over them with a cursor?) I thought I did it properly in checking with repeated post previews, and they look normal on three different computers I use after I clicked submit, but my technical skills are limited. (I can only guess that what I did here was somehow inadvertently eliminate contrast by converting black type to white type against a white background, but on the screens I'm using, it looks like what I intended, black type on white. I've seen posts of others turn out invisible in the past, but what I did should be visible to you, according to what I'm seeing, not monochromatic...)


----------



## Phantom

Duo said:


> atsch
> 
> Aw, damn it! I don't know what to do then. (Maybe you could see those posts if you highlighted over them with a cursor?) I thought I did it properly in checking with repeated post previews, and they look normal on three different computers I use after I clicked submit, but my technical skills are limited. (I can only guess that what I did here was somehow inadvertently eliminate contrast by converting black type to white type against a white background, but on the screens I'm using, it looks like what I intended, black type on white. I've seen posts of others turn out invisible in the past, but what I did should be visible to you, according to what I'm seeing, not monochromatic...)


I tried using the cursor, but all I was rewarded with was a vast black void,...something like what's going on in my head right now.


----------



## Lester1583

Conall Cernach said:


> Too bad Eddie never got a rematch at Rahway.


Nah, Gregory didn't deserve a rematch.

That performance was Guinn-like.

He could've beaten Galindez, could've beaten Scott, should've given Spinks a better fight.

And so on and so forth.

He was his own worst enemy.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Some know that Spinks - Gregory 2 got cancelled.


Wasn't it cancelled right after the weigh in?
Eddie was having his HW campaign and was unable to drop weight fast enough, Michael was angry for having to work his ass off to make the weight and feeling like Eddie didn't even bother to.


----------



## Conall Cernach

Lester1583 said:


> Nah, Gregory didn't deserve a rematch.
> 
> That performance was Guinn-like.
> 
> He could've beaten Galindez, could've beaten Scott, should've given Spinks a better fight.
> 
> And so on and so forth.
> 
> He was his own worst enemy.


I was being facetious Lester. He didn't take Scott seriously & he paid the price. IMHO he would've stood no chance in a rematch anyhow after the physical & psychological drubbing he took that night.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Wasn't it cancelled right after the weigh in?
> Eddie was having his HW campaign and was unable to drop weight fast enough, Michael was angry for having to work his ass off to make the weight and feeling like Eddie didn't even bother to.


Gregory claimed the Spinks team rigged the scales though:


> TITLE BOUT IS CALLED OFF; CHALLENGER OVERWEIGHT
> By MICHAEL KATZ, Special to the New York Times
> Published: July 16, 1983
> WASHINGTON, July 15
> 
> Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, 2 1/2 pounds over the light-heavyweight limit of 175 at the official weigh-in this morning, played the heavy in a figurative sense as well today. When he failed to attempt to lose the weight in the two hours allowed, his challenge of Michael Spinks for the title was first reduced to a 10-round nontitle event and then canceled by Spinks four hours before it was to be held.
> 
> To cap the day, a skirmish involving two former world champions, a promoter and his father disrupted an evening news conference held to explain the cancellation. The L'Enfant Plaza Hotel, the fight headquarters where both contestants are staying, had local police officers guarding elevators in the lobby.
> 
> Mustafa Muhammad refused today to undergo the weight loss. After hurried contract discussions, the scheduled 15-round championship fight became a 10-round nontitle event, with purses reduced as well.
> 
> Mustafa Muhammad claims he lost his World Boxing Association title to Spinks two years ago because of manipulated scales. He spent time in a steam room before that fight and he claims he was like ''a prune'' when he fought.
> 
> For his refusal to at least try to lose the weight, the 31-yearold Mustafa Muhammad will be indefinitely suspended by the Washington, D.C., Boxing and Wrestling Commission, its chairman, Cora Wilds, said at the news conference tonight.
> 
> ''We hope other commissions will honor our suspension,'' she said, adding that the punitive measure would be taken not because the fighter was overweight, ''but for his lack of effort in trying to make the weight.''
> 
> Immediately, representatives from state commissions in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Nevada and Rhode Island indicated their states would also put Mustafa Muhammad on suspension. Other commissions normally honor fighter suspensions, especially for disciplinary reasons.
> 
> Representatives from the W.B.A. and the World Boxing Council, which not only recognize Spinks as champion, but had rated Mustafa Muhammad as the No.1 challenger, said the challenger would be removed from the light-heavyweight rankings completely as a ''punitive'' measure.
> 
> Emotions were high after Spinks, the undefeated and undisputed champion, changed his mind about meeting Mustafa Muhammad in a 10-round nontitle bout. Spinks won the W.B.C. version last March 18 from Dwight Braxton, also known as Dwight Muhammad Qawi, who was scheduled to appear on the now-canceled undercard here at the D.C. Armory.
> 
> ''Why should I sacrifice my dignity for this man?'' said Spinks, who at first agreed to meet Mustafa Muhammad in the 10-rounder against the advice of Eddie Futch, his trainer.
> 
> At the news conference, the challenger, angered because he said he had learned of the cancellation on the local 6 P.M. television news, grabbed Butch Lewis, Spinks's regular promoter. The two men were sitting next to each other at the dais.
> 
> Lewis had jumped up when he saw his father, John L. Lewis, in a melee at the entrance of a small ballroom at the hotel. ''Don't worry, my guys are handling it,'' said Mustafa Muhammad, referring to members of a group called the ''Assassins From Brooklyn,'' who were also trying to gain entrance to the room.
> 
> Mustafa Muhammad grabbed the 165-pound Lewis by the jacket. Braxton, also at the dais, leaped to intercede and pushed Mustafa Muhammad away. The two former champions were separated quickly, but a fracas broke out in both ends of the room. No one was arrested and apparently no one was hurt and Mustafa Muhammad left.
> 
> Lewis said tonight's cancellation would cost him $200,000. The fighters' purses were also wiped out. In place of the fight, Home Box Office, the subscription company, which had bought the live television rights, played a movie, ''Foolin' Around.''
> 
> Braxton, speaking for the undercard fighters, did not hold Spinks responsible for the lost payday. ''I blame Eddie for not being professional,'' he said. ''He was acting deranged all week.'' Lewis said he hoped to put on the same card soon with Spinks meeting another challenger, perhaps Oscar Rivadeneyra of Peru or Jose Maria Flores of Uruguay.
> 
> The only other case of a challenger failing to make weight for a title fight, according to Don Majeski, Lewis's matchmaker, occurred in 1967. Gypsy Joe Harris could not make the welterweight limit in time so his title shot against Curtis Cokes was canceled.
> 
> Mustafa Muhammad did not try this morning to make the limit. He did not jump rope, the way the middleweight Vinnie Curto did for 10 minutes in his hotel room to lose two pounds in less than an hour this morning. Nor did he go take a steam bath, as he did two years ago before Spinks outpointed him.
> 
> Instead, Mustafa Muhammad reported, ''I went upstairs and laid in my bed and laughed. I know the deal, how they mess with the scale.'' He said he weighed 175 pounds, but that the scales, which belong to the Washington commission and which were calibrated by Federal employes of the Department of Weights and Measures, were off.
> 
> ''If ever in the history of boxing there was a scale that was properly calibrated,'' said Lewis, ''it had to be this scale.'' ''I know what I weighed,'' said Mustafa Muhammad. ''I know what I took my body through. I told my guys before the fight was even signed that when I step on the scales I'll be 177.''


http://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/16/sports/title-bout-is-called-off-challenger-overweight.html


----------



## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> Lester, what's your assessment of Maske? I've been peripherally aware of him for years,...let's put it that way, but I think I may have been missing something or another.....


Words can't express Maske's greatness.

Here lies the answer:


----------



## Lester1583

Mustacheod rhapsody.

1984:









1986:









1986:









1987:









1988:








Recognize the other guy, @Vysotsky?
Yup, that's König himself.
The Soviet Army Championship final.


----------



## tommygun711




----------



## Lester1583

There's only one Ronaldo.

There's only one Marvin.


----------



## Lester1583

> Marvin Johnson: I'm a Deputy Sheriff with the Marion County Sheriff's Department. I've been with the Department for 27 years. But, although I'm grateful for the position, again, that was never in my plan. I may have been world champ three times, but my boxing career was a disappointment to me. To tell you how I feel, I usually avoid conversations on boxing. For the hard fights I went through I just feel that I was never paid what I should have been. With the kind of money some of the fighters were making, was $100,000 a lot to ask for?


There is no god.


----------



## Lester1583

Brief highlights of the past prime Soviet Army Machine Vyasheslav Lemeshev vs Michael Spinks.
0:33 - 0:55




@Vysotsky


----------



## Lester1583

tommygun711 said:


> ...if I hurt your feelings...


----------



## dyna

Was just browsing boxingscene.

https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=572284

4. Henry Maske vs Virgil Hill (rematch), 31.03.2007
TV rating: 15,99 mio, market share: 63,10 %

63% of the German tv viewers were watching the Maske-Hill rematch.

The true viewership king of boxing.

German fighters weren't fighting outside Germany because they were afraid.
The German boxing market is simply bigger.

@Bogotazo

This is what the US boxing market could have been without closed circuit/PPV
More than 50% of all tv-viewers are watching a boxing match.

53% of the tv-viewers were watching Klitschko-Wach.


----------



## dyna

The real reason why Floyd Mayweather was a PPV star but nobody bought Roy's fights.

Floyd was human.

When Floyd hurt his hands, it got tough for him and he looked beatable.
Roy entered the David Telesco fight with a documented fractured wrist and he still didn't lose a single round.

Floyd was cautious for a reason.
Roy would smash his opponents in a shell within 2-3 rounds and then he'd just coast.
If his opponents kept coming forward they'd end up like Thomas Tate.

More exciting than Floyd on paper, but in reality there was no suspense when Roy fought.
It doesn't matter if he came in injured or not, nobody stood a slight chance.


----------



## dyna




----------



## Bogotazo

dyna said:


> Was just browsing boxingscene.
> 
> https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=572284
> 
> 4. Henry Maske vs Virgil Hill (rematch), 31.03.2007
> TV rating: 15,99 mio, market share: 63,10 %
> 
> 63% of the German tv viewers were watching the Maske-Hill rematch.
> 
> The true viewership king of boxing.
> 
> German fighters weren't fighting outside Germany because they were afraid.
> The German boxing market is simply bigger.
> 
> @Bogotazo
> 
> This is what the US boxing market could have been without closed circuit/PPV
> More than 50% of all tv-viewers are watching a boxing match.
> 
> 53% of the tv-viewers were watching Klitschko-Wach.


That's amazing. The sport could soar if only people knew wtf was going on. It's almost like some secret club or speakeasy chain, you have to know someone to get initiated and then convene every once in a while for secret meetings in the corners of the underground. Once in a while the masses stir to see what the mystics have conjured up only to disperse and never find their way back to the caverns.


----------



## Vysotsky

Lester1583 said:


> Brief highlights of the past prime Soviet Army Machine Vyasheslav Lemeshev vs Michael Spinks.
> 0:33 - 0:55
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Vysotsky


Ohhh baby. Beating Spinks...while probably drunk inside the ring. True talent.

I don't know who Konig is. Should i feel shame?


----------



## Lester1583

Vysotsky said:


> Ohhh baby. Beating Spinks...while probably drunk inside the ring. True talent.


Add in various injuries.

Closer to being shot than prime.

Immortal greatness.



Vysotsky said:


> I don't know who Konig is. Should i feel shame?


Look inside your pagan soul.

You know who he is











Vysotsky said:


> Ohhh baby.


You didn't miss Him at 2:21, did you?


----------



## Lester1583

.


----------



## Vysotsky

Lester1583 said:


> Add in various injuries.
> 
> Closer to being shot than prime.
> 
> Immortal greatness.
> 
> Look inside your pagan soul.
> 
> You know who he is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't miss Him at 2:21, did you?


lol as soon as i saw the face. Didn't realize they mixed it up that's awesome. God tier Igor loves his baxin.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> It doesn't matter if he came in injured or not, nobody stood a slight chance.


Black men can't jump:




@MichiganWarrior 
@bballchump11


----------



## Lester1583

Some of Norris' purses:

-July 13, 1990: $350,000 (defeated Rene Jacquot).

--Feb. 9, 1991: $780,000 (defeated Sugar Ray Leonard).

--June 1, 1991: $650,000 (defeated Donald Curry).

--Aug. 17, 1991: $400,000 (defeated Bret Lally).

--Dec. 13, 1991: $375,000 (defeated Jorge Castro).

--Feb. 22, 1992: $150,000 (defeated Carl Daniels).

--May 9, 1992: $1,300,000 (defeated Meldrick Taylor).


----------



## Lester1583

There are people who think Oscar - Trinidad was an embarrassment.

They have obviously never seen Qawi-Ocasio.

To call this one faggotry would be an insult to homos.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> There are people who think Oscar - Trinidad was an embarrassment.
> 
> They have obviously never seen Qawi-Ocasio.
> 
> To call this one faggotry would be an insult to homos.


Boxing is about not getting hit, the sweet science.


----------



## Lester1583

Fighter in a nutshell:




@JeffJoiner


----------



## JeffJoiner

Lester1583 said:


> Fighter in a nutshell:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @JeffJoiner


I remember seeing this clip and thinking "retire with your millions." Great background track, too.


----------



## Lester1583

When G's were G's.

Father of Uzbekistan/Soviet boxing.

An American Jew with a black guy's name of all people.

Sidney Jackson:









































Legendness doesn't begin to cover it, @Vysotsky


----------



## Lester1583

Not Foster


----------



## Lester1583

Ringo's funeral

















@Phantom


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> When G's were G's.
> 
> Father of Uzbekistan/Soviet boxing.
> 
> An American Jew with a black guy's name of all people.
> 
> Sidney Jackson:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Legendness doesn't begin to cover it, @Vysotsky


I wanna' know more!!!


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Not Foster


Would love to find that


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> I wanna' know more!!!


Finish your book first, Klompton Jr.

And your articles.

And your post-op rehabilitation.


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> - I broke his back. Spinal.


----------



## Lester1583

Vysotsky said:


> Terror Squad AKA The Soviet Futch & Pac AKA The Ogurenkov Bros





Flea Man said:


>


About common misconceptions.

The Eastern Euro no-inside-game-rigid-textbook-proper-footwork school of boxing is the product of the transition to the full amateur/semi-pro system that happened in the 60's.

Time gays up everything.

The post-war and especially the pre-war soviet fighters were much closer to the real american/british pros style-wise.

Inside fighting was respected, inside fighting was studied, inside fighting was taught.

Here's for example a book on inside fighting by the mythical Evgeny "Pac" Ogurenkov (began as a flyweight-beat heavyweights for the USSR Undisputed Championship (outweighed by 45 pounds in the final)-fought on even terms with the ATG heavyweight Nikolai Korolev):

















Anyway, here's a short video of Marcel Thil visiting USSR in 1935 and sparring the P4P#1 Soviet fighter of the pre-war era Viktor Michailov:




47:15


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> About common misconceptions.
> 
> The Eastern Euro no-inside-game-rigid-textbook-proper-footwork school of boxing is the product of the transition to the full amateur/semi-pro system that happened in the 60's.
> 
> Time gays up everything.
> 
> The post-war and especially the pre-war soviet fighters were much closer to the real american/british pros style-wise.
> 
> Inside fighting was respected, inside fighting was studied, inside fighting was taught.
> 
> Here's for example a book on inside fighting by the mythical Evgeny "Pac" Ogurenkov (began as a flyweight-beat heavyweights for the USSR Undisputed Championship (outweighed by 45 pounds in the final)-fought on even terms with the ATG heavyweight Nikolai Korolev):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, here's a short video of Marcel Thil visiting USSR in 1935 and sparring the P4P#1 Soviet fighter of the pre-war era Viktor Michailov:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 47:15


I need to know more about him. Is there any footage?


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Is there any footage?


9:37-9:57





Lotsa legends and soviet boxing pioneers in this documentary - Gradopolov, Kharlampiev, Michailov, Greyner etc - alas, only very brief highlights.


----------



## Lester1583

A shout-out to David Lee Royster - the unsung hero of a headbutt mastery.


----------



## Flea Man

Re-scored Pacquiao-Marquez II today.

First time I've re-scored it since the morning after the fight. Then, I had it 115-112 Marquez.

This time I scored it with the aim of giving Pacquiao every round I thought he feasibly deserved to win.

I scored it 114-113 Marquez.

A robbery? I'm not too sure if you can find another round in there for Pacquiao, but I don't feel it was a robbery.

The question is, if you give Manny this win on face value, is he a top ten super featherweight of all time?

At the weight he has

Marquez II
Barrera II
Morales 2-1 (2 KO's)
Velasquez
Larios
Solis

Is he deserving of say, a place in the 8-10 section?

My top lot in no order would be:

Arguello
Mayweather Jr
Chavez
Tod Morgan
Kid Chocolate
Flash Elorde
Sandy Saddler
Nelson

Does Pacquiao deserve to follow on from these guys? I can make a case that Pacquiao should be ABOVE Saddler, who would rank higher as a featherweight than a super feather IMO.

Who cares to discuss this? It'd be really helpful to me.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Garrincha>Pele


Mane is an anomaly, an atavism, a ridiculous twist of fate.











Flea Man said:


> Ronaldo>Everyone


Ronaldo is the LeBron of football.
@V-2

But no in both cases.



Flea Man said:


> you mysterious deceiver


My heart is Mexican.

My skills are Cuban.

My power is Baphomet-given.

My beauty is eternal.












Flea Man said:


> Drown me in your knowledge


In the 20's the Mariupol (Soviet Ukraine, @Vysotsky) boxing team sent a letter to... Jack Dempsey, after watching his fight with Gene Tunney.

Asking him to give them some advice, tips, routines.

Dempsey replied with a ton of manuals and articles.

The famous Dempsey roll maneuver is called the Dempsey sun in the eastern bloc countries.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Mane is an anomaly, an atavism, a ridiculous twist of fate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ronaldo is the LeBron of football.
> @V-2
> 
> But no in both cases.
> 
> My heart is Mexican.
> 
> My skills are Cuban.
> 
> My power is Baphomet-given.
> 
> My beauty is eternal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the 20's the Mariupol (Soviet Ukraine, @Vysotsky) boxing team sent a letter to... Jack Dempsey, after watching his fight with Gene Tunney.
> 
> Asking him to give them some advice, tips, routines.
> 
> Dempsey replied with a ton of manuals and articles.
> 
> The famous Dempsey roll maneuver is called the Dempsey sun in the eastern bloc countries.


What of my top ten 130lbers discussion?


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> Re-scored Pacquiao-Marquez II today.
> 
> First time I've re-scored it since the morning after the fight. Then, I had it 115-112 Marquez.
> 
> This time I scored it with the aim of giving Pacquiao every round I thought he feasibly deserved to win.
> 
> I scored it 114-113 Marquez.
> 
> A robbery? I'm not too sure if you can find another round in there for Pacquiao, but I don't feel it was a robbery.
> 
> The question is, if you give Manny this win on face value, is he a top ten super featherweight of all time?
> 
> At the weight he has
> 
> Marquez II
> Barrera II
> Morales 2-1 (2 KO's)
> Velasquez
> Larios
> Solis
> 
> Is he deserving of say, a place in the 8-10 section?
> 
> My top lot in no order would be:
> 
> Arguello
> Mayweather Jr
> Chavez
> Tod Morgan
> Kid Chocolate
> Flash Elorde
> Sandy Saddler
> Nelson
> 
> Does Pacquiao deserve to follow on from these guys? I can make a case that Pacquiao should be ABOVE Saddler, who would rank higher as a featherweight than a super feather IMO.
> 
> Who cares to discuss this? It'd be really helpful to me.


Don't feel it was a robbery either. As I see it they are even in fights but Marquez wins the war because Manny went out face first.

Pacquiao could certainly slide in the bottom part of a top 10, with his wins over fellow ATGs and especially if you factor in his head to head abilities.


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> Don't feel it was a robbery either. As I see it they are even in fights but Marquez wins the war because Manny went out face first.
> 
> Pacquiao could certainly slide in the bottom part of a top 10, with his wins over fellow ATGs and especially if you factor in his head to head abilities.


Nice reply. That's the way I see it too I think, but never really considered him top ten in any weight class until recently.


----------



## tommygun711




----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> Nice reply. That's the way I see it too I think, but never really considered him top ten in any weight class until recently.


Neither have I until you brought it up :lol: But he was starting to build a skillset from 126 and on, beyond his physical gifts. I'm not sure how much you factor in H2H but he is a big ask for a lot of guys at 130.

I think people are forgetting the amount of power he had at the lower weights, it was shocking.


----------



## Flea Man

Also, @Lester1583 Cristiano Ronaldo is the Lebron of football.

Not THE Ronaldo.


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> Neither have I until you brought it up :lol: But he was starting to build a skillset from 126 and on, beyond his physical gifts. I'm not sure how much you factor in H2H but he is a big ask for a lot of guys at 130.
> 
> I think people are forgetting the amount of power he had at the lower weights, it was shocking.


Also, after Pac and Saddler the bottom of the top 10 is pretty weak.

I'd have someone like Lockridge over longtime champs that did basically nothing impressive like Brian Mitchell or Genaro Hernandez.

Sammy Serrano has better wins than those two, and despite lineal is the definition of underwhelming champion. But at least he beat Ben Villaflor twice. EDIT: Serrano only beat Villaflor once.

Villaflor deserves to be above Serrano anyway I think. Wins over Shibata, Marcano and Uehara--who Serrano took two attempts to beat--as well as (I think) seven defences mean he's 9 or 10 material for me.


----------



## dyna

Flea Man said:


> Also, @Lester1583 Cristiano Ronaldo is the Lebron of football.
> 
> Not THE Ronaldo.


As if a British person knows football :lol:


----------



## Jdempsey85

Lester1583 said:


>


Miklo! Are you a blood in fan carnal


----------



## Flea Man

dyna said:


> As if a British person knows football :lol:


What a truly disgraceful comment :lol:


----------



## dyna

Flea Man said:


> What a truly disgraceful comment :lol:


Get educated about real class.


----------



## Flea Man

dyna said:


> Get educated about real class.


Good, but no Matt Le Tiss


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> Also, @Lester1583 Cristiano Ronaldo is the Lebron of football.
> Not THE Ronaldo.





Flea Man said:


> What a truly disgraceful comment :lol:


Dyna is from the land of Totaalvoetbal and Asphyx.

You - from the island that gave us Rooney's hair and Oasis.

If anyone wants to know how to talk with Kell Brook's gay accent, you'll get called.



Flea Man said:


> What of my top ten 130lbers discussion?


South African mustaches, Latino machismo, Soviet war machines.

Things that Jesse Ventura would approve.

This is what this thread is about.

Your top tens? No.



Flea Man said:


> Good, but







Go with god, boy.


----------



## Lester1583

Jdempsey85 said:


> Miklo! Are you a blood in fan carnal


Vatos locos forever, carnal.


----------



## dyna

Can the rest of the world even compete?


__
http://instagr.am/p/BQ9e-tsgu-H/


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Boxing is about not getting hit, the sweet science.


Ocasio was a Puerto Rican at least.

But what was Scott's excuse for such a pathetic marathon session?

Braxton - more intimidating than Liston and Tyson?


----------



## dyna

Lester1583 said:


> Ocasio was a Puerto Rican at least.
> 
> But what was Scott's excuse for such a pathetic marathon session?
> 
> Braxton - more intimidating than Liston and Tyson?


A 4:30 mile is not pathetic any way you try to spin it.


----------



## turbotime

Flea Man said:


> Also, after Pac and Saddler the bottom of the top 10 is pretty weak.
> 
> I'd have someone like Lockridge over longtime champs that did basically nothing impressive like Brian Mitchell or Genaro Hernandez.
> 
> Sammy Serrano has better wins than those two, and despite lineal is the definition of underwhelming champion. But at least he beat Ben Villaflor twice. EDIT: Serrano only beat Villaflor once.
> 
> Villaflor deserves to be above Serrano anyway I think. Wins over Shibata, Marcano and Uehara--who Serrano took two attempts to beat--as well as (I think) seven defences mean he's 9 or 10 material for me.


Well put, I would still have Manny above him IF we take the Marquez win at 130 for what it is...

Reminds me, ever hear of that 130 lb'er Tyrone Everett out of Philly in the late 70s? He got jobbed horribly against Escalara and murdered by his GF after she found him with a tranny. He was only 24 and should've really been 37-0

Even the whole trial was whacky, the tranny showed up to court in full Tran-dress and everything :lol:


----------



## Flea Man

turbotime said:


> Well put, I would still have Manny above him IF we take the Marquez win at 130 for what it is...
> 
> Reminds me, ever hear of that 130 lb'er Tyrone Everett out of Philly in the late 70s? He got jobbed horribly against Escalara and murdered by his GF after she found him with a tranny. He was only 24 and should've really been 37-0
> 
> Even the whole trial was whacky, the tranny showed up to court in full Tran-dress and everything :lol:


Excellent fighter. Completely robbed in that fight.


----------



## Flea Man

I did some uploads


----------



## Axe Murderer

Flea Man said:


> I did some uploads


:happy:happy:happy:happy


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> I did some uploads


That's how awesome this upload is:


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> That's how awesome this upload is:


Not enough moustaches unfortunately, hence why I included Pedroza-Kobayashi to make up for it.


----------



## Lester1583

Flea Man said:


> LMR VS Floyd&Pac = shutout.


Rodriguez used a long uppercut as a jab.

Amazingly but not surprisingly Mims held his own at close quarters - LMR's speed and workrate were the difference - not skills.

El Feo sometimes reaches with his punches - not amateurishly - he reaches without reaching/losing his balance - but that's one of the reasons his power was average.

LMR always thinks in the ring.

Enormously energy-sapping movement - yet %100 effective.

One of the best and most skillful inside fighting sequences. Ever.


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Rodriguez used a long uppercut as a jab.
> 
> Amazingly but not surprisingly Mims held his own at close quarters - LMR's speed and workrate were the difference - not skills.
> 
> El Feo sometimes reaches with his punches - not amateurishly - he reaches without reaching/losing his balance - but that's one of the reasons his power was average.
> 
> LMR always thinks in the ring.
> 
> Enormously energy-sapping movement - yet %100 effective.
> 
> One of the best and most skillful inside fighting sequences. Ever.


It's masterful. I have his KO of Napoles' daddy LC Morgan as well....but I can't find it :lol:


----------



## tommygun711

Absolutely vicious exchange between Ortega and Scott.


----------



## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> Absolutely vicious exchange between Ortega and Scott.


Didn't know Malik Scott had it in him.


----------



## tommygun711

dyna said:


> Didn't know Malik Scott had it in him.


Malik could only dream of fighting like the great Charley Scott.

Feeling quite nostalgic today so I uploaded some classics.


----------



## Flea Man

tommygun711 said:


> Absolutely vicious exchange between Ortega and Scott.


Love that fight. Didn't I upload that one?


----------



## tommygun711

Flea Man said:


> Love that fight. Didn't I upload that one?


You may have, but i didn't watch it on your channel. got it on dvd


----------



## Lester1583

The greatest Kronk Gym fighter - the mythical Bernard "Superbad" Mays


----------



## Lester1583

Mays the pro doesn't look that great.

A typical Steward fighter.

Milton McCrory-level potential.

At best.


----------



## dyna

Can we all just agree right now in this very moment.

That Mayweather has surpassed Ray Leonard and broke the curse?


----------



## Lester1583

The Power of Bullshit Compels you!


----------



## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> Mays the pro doesn't look that great.
> 
> A typical Steward fighter.
> 
> Milton McCrory-level potential.
> 
> At best.


Most likely left his physical peak behind in a bottle though...in his teens.


----------



## Flea Man

Doesn't get much better than this!


----------



## Lester1583

Rahway, represent.









His obvious beastness aside, Braxton is a horrible stylistic match-up for most light heavyweights.

Real power, strength, stamina, reach, solid inside game, legs, chin - you need all of those to beat him - the Spinks/Holyfield blueprint.

Nobody would beat him today.

Most wouldn't last the distance.

Kovalev would get stopped - he can't fight off the backfoot the classic way, too fragile and can't brawl.

Stevenson would get tortured, humiliated and KO'd - that limited all-revolves-around-the-left-hand style is gonna make him feel like he's one of his own girls.

Ward (any version) would either lose a decision most likely or get stopped too - his outboxing isn't strong enough to tame Qawi, in addition he isn't really a consistent outfighter and his dirty infighting isn't gonna work against a man who lives for exchanges at close quarters.

Of those who came after him only Henry Maske could pull it off.

But then again, he could do anything.


----------



## MadcapMaxie

Lester1583 said:


>


Hagler won


----------



## dyna

Pussy slayer


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Robbery


When it's called, and when it's dark, the Qawi - Eddie Davis inside fighting can obsess you.


----------



## Lester1583

The Davis brothers are what the real slick & black boxing is all about - awesome afros, lotsa skills, good movement, tough, flashy but effective and never afraid to mix it up.


----------



## Lester1583

Rahway feint


----------



## Axe Murderer

LMAO at the japanese thing....






@Bogotazo


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Pussy slayer


Cocaine rockers gonna party tonight


----------



## Lester1583

Mike Rossman doesn't have a highlight video.

Fucking holocaust deniers.


----------



## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Sexy and I know it


MMA ground fighting can be exciting too:


----------



## MadcapMaxie

Lester1583 said:


> MMA ground fighting can be exciting too:


She loved every second of that


----------



## dyna

:frochcry2


----------



## Vysotsky

1937 Carnival of Champions card. I'v already seen the Apostoli/Thil footage and have it saved somewhere but not the rest.

- Apostoli is all class as one should expect and really starts laying into Thil at the end of the 8th and early 9th before the stoppage

- Ceferino is a little more slippery defensively than i remembered from the Armstrong footage. Him and Ross start exchanging quite good in the 15th

- Ceferino would KO Apostoli 2 years later






@Lester1583
@Flea Man
@dyna
@V-2


----------



## Flea Man

Vysotsky said:


> 1937 Carnival of Champions card. I'v already seen the Apostoli/Thil footage and have it saved somewhere but not the rest.
> 
> - Apostoli is all class as one should expect and really starts laying into Thil at the end of the 8th and early 9th before the stoppage
> 
> - Ceferino is a little more slippery defensively than i remembered from the Armstrong footage. Him and Ross start exchanging quite good in the 15th
> 
> - Ceferino would KO Apostoli 2 years later
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Lester1583
> @Flea Man
> @dyna
> @V-2


Stunning.


----------



## Lester1583

Vysotsky said:


> 1937 Carnival of Champions card.


Excellent footage.

Apostoli is very open and dangerously upright.

But he fights like Thurman if OneTime was a man.

Timing-reliant and reflex-oriented - yet physical and comfortable at every range.

Not to mention his toughness.

Billy Conn agrees:
















Gave his all against prime Tacoma Assassin in his only 7th fight.

That's 100% legendness.

Steele and Thaddeus Yarosz - middleweights that should be on everyone's top 10 list that are not in anyone's top 10?

Overlin - underrated beyond criminal?

A 19 year old Steele knocked out Ceferino.


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## Lester1583

King of Fighters


----------



## Flea Man

Amateur Moon from 00:50!!!


----------



## Erratic

Lester1583 said:


> MMA ground fighting can be exciting too:


Is this fighting or rough porn? Lol


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## Lester1583

Unmatchable beastness


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## Lester1583




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## Lester1583

Most fighters can't dance for shit.

Sugar Niko isn't most fighters:


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## Jdempsey85

The Pride of the Barrio vs Salvador Sanchez in his last fight in the film 'The Last Fight''


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## tommygun711

November 8th 1997

Commander Evander gets revenge



http://imgur.com/height%3D278%3Bid%3DtQcnw5h%3Btype%3Dgifv%3Bwidth%3D418


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## dyna

tommygun711 said:


> November 8th 1997
> 
> Commander Evander gets revenge
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/height%3D278%3Bid%3DtQcnw5h%3Btype%3Dgifv%3Bwidth%3D418


Holyfield was a true boss.


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## tommygun711

dyna said:


> Holyfield was a true boss.


I think Holyfield gets underrated in a p4p sense.

Probably my favorite HW to watch, just as far as aesthetically pleasing, action packed bouts go.

He has so many great fights under his belt - Dokes, Qawi,Foreman, Bowe trilogy, Moorer, Cooper, stewart, tyson 1, lewis,etc.

Even the less exciting bouts vs Mercer, Valuev (ROBBERY) Douglas and Toney were still interesting to watch.

Just a warrior through and through


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## Lester1583

Australia's fastest.
Australia's fiercest.

Balboa and Creed sucked.
Mediocrity and no true original spirit at all.

This is more than a tribute video.

This is Rocky 6: The Master Blaster


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## Lester1583

- Stick to 175!


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## Lester1583




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## Lester1583

Absolute Badness


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## tommygun711




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## Vysotsky

Lester1583 said:


> *Steele and Thaddeus Yarosz* - middleweights that should be on everyone's top 10 list that are not in anyone's top 10?
> 
> *Overlin* - underrated beyond criminal?
> 
> A 19 year old Steele knocked out Ceferino.


All three are in my top 10 but mine would leave most fans with hurt feelings.


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## Lester1583

I said, what, what, uppercut.
I said, what, what, uppercut.


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## Lester1583

Superior grill race


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## Lester1583

Almost as beautiful as his punching technique


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## dyna

Former Cruiserweight king still in great shape.


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## Lester1583

dyna said:


> - Classic Sugar Ray!


An interesting piece of info:



> All records indicate SRR went 85-0 as an amateur...
> 
> He lost to Hiram Jackson, Harvey Lacelle, and Pasquale Pesca for sure. Those bouts are documented. He supposedly also lost to Billy Graham before he started using the name Ray Robinson but I have yet to find a ringside account. But Robinson himself states in his biography with Dave Anderson: "I was in with a tough little Irish kid and he got a three round decision. Years later, Billy Graham, who once challenged Kid Gavilan for the welterweight title, reminded me of that fight." Its in the chapter titled "Driftwood and Dice" in my copy its on pages 33 and 34. He also may have lost to Frank Anigiaconna in New Jersey, the newspaper reports for that bout differ. Some say a win some say a loss. He could have lost others as well because we are missing several reports for his bouts. It doesn't detract from his record because he was only an amateur and those losses were early in his amateur career but they were losses none the less. I believe that there has been a misconception with Robinson's record. I believe that people have taken early reports of Robinsons record as an amateur stating "unbeaten in 85 fights" to mean his amateur record was 85-0. This is incorrect. I believe he had many more fights as an amateur than 85 but that he hadnt been beaten in his last 85 fights as an amateur. *Several times when he became an internationally recognized amateur star and great things were expected of him, he refused to fight difficult opponents rather than risk a blemish on that glossy winning streak.*


Credit goes to Klompton.


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## Lester1583

- I'll schindler your ass back to Israel!









The most significant latin american sparring of all time:









Saved from the Butcher of Bilbao


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## turbotime

tommygun711 said:


> I think Holyfield gets underrated in a p4p sense.
> 
> Probably my favorite HW to watch, just as far as aesthetically pleasing, action packed bouts go.
> 
> He has so many great fights under his belt - Dokes, Qawi,Foreman, Bowe trilogy, Moorer, Cooper, stewart, tyson 1, lewis,etc.
> 
> Even the less exciting bouts vs Mercer, Valuev (ROBBERY) Douglas and Toney were still interesting to watch.
> 
> Just a warrior through and through


G


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## FloydPatterson

Just started watching Danny Lopez's career. Man this dude could punch your head off.


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## Lester1583

Regarded as the best








@Vic


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## Lester1583

The most impossibru KD ever?








@dyna
@Chinny


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## Lester1583

FloydPatterson said:


> Just started watching Danny Lopez's career. Man this dude could punch your head off.


The Little Red - Ayala introduction is simply the greatest.


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## Conall Cernach




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## Lester1583

dyna said:


> Your soul slipped away
> It belongs to the King of the Reich


King of the Reich:


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## Lester1583




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## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


>


Sonny really means bidness here.


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## FloydPatterson

Lester1583 said:


>


Who is that? Niccolino Locche?


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## Phantom

FloydPatterson said:


> Just started watching Danny Lopez's career. Man this dude could punch your head off.


And after a fight, he had that self-effacing, hang dog, "aw shucks" Jimmy Stewart kind of demeanor that complemented that power so nicely.


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## Lester1583

FloydPatterson said:


> Who is that? Niccolino Locche?


Yup, the one and only.


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## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Yup, the one and only.


Ol' El Intocable himself.
@Lester1583 I always look forward to what you post...you seem to have the mother lode of pics and articles of the Argentine greats that I'm so fond of..and everything else too...much obliged!:cheers


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## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


> November 8th 1997
> 
> Commander Evander gets revenge
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/height%3D278%3Bid%3DtQcnw5h%3Btype%3Dgifv%3Bwidth%3D418


Yep,...the Commander had an important point to make, and he made it rather well.


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## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


>


This is cool. I like Mike.


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## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> - I'll schindler your ass back to Israel!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most significant latin american sparring of all time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saved from the Butcher of Bilbao


 I remember so well, when I was watching Galindez-Rossman ll, that chicken geek lookin' fucker jumping in the ring and going after Galindez. I hollered out loud at the tv " you don't fuckin' do that asshole, attack a real, genuine badass like Victor Galindez!! What are you some kind of fool?" Like somebody losing their mind and jumping in the leopard or tiger enclosure at the zoo or something.


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## tommygun711

Tapia at his best was an ATG.

Never seen him box and move like this except against Konadu.. Most of the time Tapia would get wild and he would end up exchanging with inferior fighters but he was impressive in this fight. Super disciplined


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## Lester1583

tommygun711 said:


> Never seen him box and move like this except against Konadu.. Most of the time Tapia would get wild and he would end up exchanging with inferior fighters but he was impressive in this fight. Super disciplined


That's how young Tapia used to fight.

He was much less flashier, more conventional back then.

The early super flyweight years was his best boxing.


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## Flea Man

Lester1583 said:


> That's how young Tapia used to fight.
> 
> He was much less flashier, more conventional back then.
> 
> The early super flyweight years was his best boxing.


Agreed.

But how high will he rank?

http://www.boxingmonthly.com/stories/the-top-ten-super-flyweights-of-all-time-no-10-and-no-9/


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## Lester1583

The City of Brotherly Love and Deadly Left Hooks


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## FloydPatterson

For some reason I am influenced by black and white fight footage when it comes to heavyweights.

Up until today, I figured Louis to be on a comparative level size-wise to guys like Ellis, Patterson, Quarry.

Boy I was wrong, I'm watching Frazier vs Quarry right now, and Louis' frame is so much bigger than both Joe and Jerry .


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## Lester1583

Phantom said:


> Carlos the Magnificent


The greatest middleweight of all time.

The best fighter of the 70's.

The... best actor of the 70's?!

Sonar Sonar starring Monzon is a borderline great film by a legit ATG director Leonardo Favio.

A classic low key road+buddy movie in the vein of Midnight Cowboy and Scarecrow - only more upbeat and better shot.

Alas, no subtitles - but the movie is pretty simple and the plot isn't hard to follow - and it's worth it - if you're a Monzofreak and into this sort of cinema.






Brace yourself though - it's a completely different Monzon - a _sensitive emotional_ Monzon - Monzon the Actor.

To ease you into it, here's a picture of a young amateur Carlos from 1960:








@Jdempsey85
@Boggle


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## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> The greatest middleweight of all time.
> 
> The best fighter of the 70's.
> 
> The... best actor of the 70's?!
> 
> Sonar Sonar starring Monzon is a borderline great film by a legit ATG director Leonardo Favio.
> 
> A classic low key road+buddy movie in the vein of Midnight Cowboy and Scarecrow - only more upbeat and better shot.
> 
> Alas, no subtitles - but the movie is pretty simple and the plot isn't hard to follow - and it's worth it - if you're a Monzofreak and into this sort of cinema.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brace yourself though - it's a completely different Monzon - *a sensitive emotional Monzon *- Monzon the Actor.
> 
> To ease you into it, here's a picture of a young amateur Carlos from 1960:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Jdempsey85
> @Boggle


*Thank you* for all this Lester....don't know where you find them....
Don't know if I can handle an "emotional, sensitive Monzon"...I'll bet his opponents wouldn't believe it!:think


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## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> The greatest middleweight of all time.
> 
> The best fighter of the 70's.
> 
> The... best actor of the 70's?!
> 
> Sonar Sonar starring Monzon is a borderline great film by a legit ATG director Leonardo Favio.
> 
> A classic low key road+buddy movie in the vein of Midnight Cowboy and Scarecrow - only more upbeat and better shot.
> 
> Alas, no subtitles - but the movie is pretty simple and the plot isn't hard to follow - and it's worth it - if you're a Monzofreak and into this sort of cinema.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brace yourself though - it's a completely different Monzon - a _sensitive emotional_ Monzon - Monzon the Actor.
> 
> To ease you into it, here's a picture of a young amateur Carlos from 1960:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Jdempsey85
> @Boggle


Lester, I wish I spoke Spanish...but I like foreign made films even if I don't speak the language...so far, it's surprising well made.


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## Drew101

Lester1583 said:


> The most impossibru KD ever?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @dyna
> @Chinny


The hell did I just watch!? And who is the guy who become reincarnated as Pirog a couple of decades later!?


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## Jdempsey85

Lester1583 said:


> The greatest middleweight of all time.
> 
> The best fighter of the 70's.
> 
> The... best actor of the 70's?!
> 
> Sonar Sonar starring Monzon is a borderline great film by a legit ATG director Leonardo Favio.
> 
> A classic low key road+buddy movie in the vein of Midnight Cowboy and Scarecrow - only more upbeat and better shot.
> 
> Alas, no subtitles - but the movie is pretty simple and the plot isn't hard to follow - and it's worth it - if you're a Monzofreak and into this sort of cinema.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brace yourself though - it's a completely different Monzon - a _sensitive emotional_ Monzon - Monzon the Actor.
> 
> To ease you into it, here's a picture of a young amateur Carlos from 1960:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Jdempsey85
> @Boggle


Subtitles with this one,sounds good


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## Lester1583

So ***** please check nuts before you step to these


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## Lester1583

Norsk Arisk Liebe Machine


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## Drew101

Lester1583 said:


> The City of Brotherly Love and Deadly Left Hooks


Is that Watts vs Hart, or another fight?


----------



## Lester1583

Drew101 said:


> Is that Watts vs Hart, or another fight?


Cyclone Hart - Sonny Floyd.


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## Lester1583

Eternal question


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## Lester1583

1953 - amateurs


----------



## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> 1953 - amateurs


Wow..thanks Lester!


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## Lester1583

Miami Vice


----------



## Lester1583

Smiling Galindez - almost unrecognizable


----------



## Lester1583

6 fights with Galindez, 3 fights with Ahumada.

Wins over both.

150 fights.

Buried by time and dust.

Feels


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## Lester1583

NewRetroJinx


----------



## Lester1583

Near-prime Ezzard in good quality





Archie Moore never looked as workmanlike and sloppy, even in losing efforts, as this Charles - and not only this Charles.

But.


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## Phantom

Lester1583 said:


> Smiling Galindez - almost unrecognizable


:happy:cheers:thumbsup!!!!


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## tommygun711

@Lester1583

Kid Akeem was a good boxer puncher.. Ashame what happened to him in his fight with Quiroga, a fight I thought he won.


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## tommygun711

Always love watching Henry Hank


----------



## Trail

I don't mind a bit of Alberto Sandoval...


----------



## Lester1583




----------



## tommygun711

How good was Tommy Morrison, truly?

Was he really any better than the Great White Hopes of the past - like Cooney, Jerry Quarry? How would he fare against them?

His lack of chin aside - there were few combination punchers at heavyweight better than Morrison and even fewer that had a better left hook.

This combination vs Mercer in particular was very impressive to me. What a fucking chin on Mercer to withstand all of that punishment in that fight.


----------



## tommygun711

Legendary Legend Jimmy Young diffusing dangerous puncher Ron Lyle:


----------



## Phantom

tommygun711 said:


> Legendary Legend Jimmy Young diffusing dangerous puncher Ron Lyle:


I wish Young-Lyle will one day be unearthed.


----------

