# Controversy Sells! -- Your most controversial boxing-related views



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Controversy sells! I want to hear your most outrageous, most controversial boxing related opinions. It may be in regards to a particular hypothetical match-up, a particular decision that you disagreed with or anything really! Anything at all. Perhaps you are of the opinion that Muhammad Ali would have been far too small to have been competitive with super Heavyweights like Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko. That would certainly be controversial. Maybe you agreed with the scoring in controversial decisions like Pernell Whitaker-Julio Cesar Chavez or Lennox Lewis-Evander Holyfield I. Whatever your controversial view, please share it with the rest of us. And like in my other confessional-type thread there must not be any judgement. Well, not too much anyway.

Go! Someone start us off!


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

I would say that Sturm-Chudinov 2 was not a complete robbery (still had Chudinov winning), but it seems that might be a moot point very soon


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

Foreman-Moorer is an overrated win


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Casual HOOOOOK said:


> Foreman-Moorer is an overrated win


Kind of agree there, anything can happen in the heavyweight division. Hopkins winning the world title at his age was more impressive


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I asked for controversial opinions, not for you all to go full retard!


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I asked for controversial opinions, not for you all to go full retard!


:rofl


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Oskee would slice Arguello to bits and beat Mayweather in most weights in his prime.


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

It's the single most overrated win in boxing history

Deal with it


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## Casual Benson's Unknown (Jun 5, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Oskee would slice Arguello to bits and beat Mayweather in most weights in his prime.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

@Hands of Iron has bottled it again. I saw him in here earlier but he's left because he doesn't want to admit to us all that he scored Whitaker-Chavez a draw. Set yourself free, my friend.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I actually had Pernell winning something like 118-110.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I actually had Pernell winning something like 118-110.


Cool story. Now tell us something controversial.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Cool story. Now tell us something controversial.


He'd have done him just as bad if not worse in their respective primes at 135. Or is that more like common knowledge?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> He'd have done him just as bad if not worse in their respective primes at 135. Or is that more like common knowledge?


Oh yeah? Steele says "hi".


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Canelo-Lara wasn't that close at all, Canelo won around 8-4


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Oh yeah? Steele says "hi".


Nothing Steele can do. Whitaker bested Chavez on the *inside*. It's absolutely over with. He's finished. It's a more impressive win than Jones utter domination of drained AF Toney, who's a lesser fighter than JCC anyway. Pea wasn't a Welter either. Winding the years back only gives him far fresher wheels where as that's damn near negligible for Chavez, who never possessed particularly noteworthy speed of hand nor foot.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Roberto Dooran is the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport and would be a sparring partner for Anthony Crolla if he was fighting today.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Roberto Dooran is the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport and would be a sparring partner for Anthony Crolla if he was fighting today.


Whitaker beats him at 135 too.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Nothing Steele can do. Whitaker bested Chavez on the *inside*. It's absolutely over with. He's finished. It's a more impressive win than Jones utter domination of drained AF Toney, who's a lesser fighter than JCC anyway. Pea wasn't a Welter either. Winding the years back only gives him far fresher wheels where as that's damn near negligible for Chavez, who never possessed particularly noteworthy speed of hand nor foot.


Well if Steele does a Taylor and stops the fight prematurely then Whitaker would do well to score 118 points brah.

On a serious note though, I don't think your opinion is all that controversial. I think most knowledgeable, non-Mexican fans of the sport fully concede that Whitaker isn't only the better fighter of the two but has a style that would always, always trouble Chavez. Whitaker wasn't exactly prime'd himself when the two eventually did fight in '93. He would only get better at a lower weight.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Whitaker beats pretty much everyone at 135 IMO


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Whitaker may beat everybody, but he was often guilty of stinking the place out and putting on a boring spectacle which would be the main reason he isn't remembered as fondly by casuals and the media. Personally, I don't much care for Pea. And I often cringe when I read threads that are trying to rank him in the top 10 P4P all time or build up his win column as being spectacular when it really wasn't for a guy of his ability.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Well if Steele does a Taylor and stops the fight prematurely then Whitaker would do well to score 118 points brah.
> 
> On a serious note though, I don't think your opinion is all that controversial. I think most knowledgeable, non-Mexican fans of the sport fully concede that Whitaker isn't only the better fighter of the two but has a style that would always, always trouble Chavez. Whitaker wasn't exactly prime'd himself when the two eventually did fight in '93. He would only get better at a lower weight.


It's simply too much. Whitaker had the best jab in the history of the lightweight division, Benny Leonard included until someone shows me otherwise. He threw upwards of 100 punches a round in various fights, his lateral movement was otherworldly even if his footwork not always textbook or fundamentally sound, he's a fair shout as one of the top five inside fighters there's ever been, his defensive genius and use of angles utterly unpredictable and unteachable. And he's hard as fucking nails. He proved that when he went the last seven against a primed up Trinidad with a broken jaw.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Give Hoi any excuse to wax lyrical about Pea and he fuckin' takes it without a moment's hesitation. :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Give Hoi any excuse to wax lyrical about Pea and he fuckin' takes it without a moment's hesitation. :lol:


Throbbing Cawk In Hand. Firmly.






IceVeins vids are the dog's bollox.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Pea ain't my guy, but I will admit that his professional debut is the best debut I've ever seen. Night of Gold.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

The motherfucker could have probably won the title on this night.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

This thread is fucking GLORIOUS. I'm so happy right now.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> This thread is fucking GLORIOUS. I'm so happy right now.


No! You've derailed the fuckin' thing with your usual Whitaker lovin'.

Back on topic! I want controversy!


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> No! You've derailed the fuckin' thing with your usual Whitaker lovin'.
> 
> Back on topic! I want controversy!


Even @Zopilote loves Whitaker. You want a Non-Flomo @MichiganWarrior? Ask him if he can rate Floyd above in good conscience. He's TBE.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Whitaker can't punch through bible paper.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

And you brought this upon yourself, Addie. You mentioned Whitaker, not I. Even went so far as to tag me in the same post. Yet blame HoI for derailing another thread.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Whitaker can't punch through bible paper.












Chavez had felt stronger breezes.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> And you brought this upon yourself, Addie. You mentioned Whitaker, not I. Even went so far as to tag me in the same post. Yet blame HoI for derailing another thread.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Chavez had felt stronger breezes.


his mom has hit him harder with a fly swatter.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> his mom has hit him harder with a fly swatter.


So Turbo, do you really think DLH would have styled on The Explosive Thin Man?


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> So Turbo, do you really think DLH would have styled on The Explosive Thin Man?


I think so. Bigger, better defense, better jab, faster, hit like a monster. This would look like the Genaro fight but with it going the distance. Oskee is also pretty slick for all his mexicaness.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> his mom has hit him harder with a fly swatter.


These sort of comments make you less attractive.  Whitaker was the Fighter of the 1990s, not Roy Jones.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> These sort of comments make you less attractive.  Whitaker was the Fighter of the 1990s, not Roy Jones.


Wow. Now who is less attractive?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> I think so. Bigger, better defense, better jab, faster, hit like a monster. This would look like the Genaro fight but with it going the distance. Oskee is also pretty slick for all his mexicaness.


Arguello is a H2H monster at 130lbs. I don't think there are too many fighters to have campaigned at that weight who would take his shots well. He was straight up and down though; not hugely mobile and could be troubled by fast guys with athleticism. The only guy that offered him consistent movement at Super Feather was Vilomar Fernandez and he didn't have the physical gifts, talent nor the athleticism of a DLH. But we're discussing a hypothetical match-up, so you have to take the DLH that was a bit green and who was fighting relatively modest competition down at 130lbs. This was in complete contrast to Arguello's reign at that weight, who was undeniably at his peak as a 130lbs fighter and knocking out experienced and proven guys. That would be my only reservation here. How does an inexperienced Hoya react to being hit by an Arguello right hand? I would have no doubts as to who would be getting the better of most of the exchanges, but Arguello had that air of inevitably about him. Similar to Chavez. He may not land the most punches, but the ones he does land will tell.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Arguello is a H2H monster at 130lbs. I don't think there are too many fighters to have campaigned at that weight who would take his shots well. He was straight up and down though; not hugely mobile and could be troubled by fast guys with athleticism. The only guy that offered him consistent movement at Super Feather was Vilomar Fernandez and he didn't have the physical gifts, talent nor the athleticism of a DLH. But we're discussing a hypothetical match-up, so you have to take the DLH that was a bit green and who was fighting relatively modest competition down at 130lbs. This was in complete contrast to Arguello's reign at that weight, who was undeniably at his peak as a 130lbs fighter and knocking out experienced and proven guys. That would be my only reservation here. How does an inexperienced Hoya react to being hit by an Arguello right hand? I would have no doubts as to who would be getting the better of most of the exchanges, but Arguello had that air of inevitably about it. Similar to Chavez. He may not land the most punches, but the ones he does land will tell.


Listen, I love Arguello but a lot of the best fighters he fought and beat we're proven to be great over guys with pretty sketchy records. A lot of it against club fighters even. I mean I think my fave win of his is against Castillo but even then, who did Castillo beat in amazing fashion?

Also not to mention both of these fighters have such a size advantage at the lower weights, and let's not forget AA was a lightweight champ as well, just as Oscar.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Listen, I love Arguello but a lot of the best fighters he fought and beat we're proven to be great over guys with pretty sketchy records. A lot of it against club fighters even. I mean I think my fave win of his is against Castillo but even then, who did Castillo beat in amazing fashion?
> 
> Also not to mention both of these fighters have such a size advantage at the lower weights, and let's not forget AA was a lightweight champ as well, just as Oscar.


But that's my point, who did DLH beat at 130lbs?


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

I love how the WBF is the new Classic.



turbotime said:


> Wow. Now who is less attractive?


C'mon dude.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> But that's my point, who did DLH beat at 130lbs?


He's too green and your post was too good. You baited turbos into that, fair play. Chavez can take PBF at 135 lbs. I have reservations everywhere else.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> But that's my point, who did DLH beat at 130lbs?


Rhetorical. He didn't have the popular guys with sketchy records like a Gatti or Manfredy or Ivan Robinson to smack around to prove his deadliness.

Not to mention Oscar was a gold medalist at the weight. Skill for skill I felt he was superior. Arguello had the right hand, Oscar had everything else. I can't bet on one weapon against someone who has been fighting since he was 6.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> He's too green and your post was too good. You baited turbos into that, fair play. Chavez can take PBF at 135 lbs. I have reservations everywhere else.


Against a tomato can sure, but hardly the look of a green fighter. I swear people forget hes a ghetto kid from east LA


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Not to mention Oscar was a gold medalist at the weight. Skill for skill I felt he was superior. Arguello had the right hand, Oscar had everything else. I can't bet on one weapon against someone who has been fighting since he was 6.


Arguello had a fairly extensive amateur career himself. He was no gold medalist, but he didn't enter the professional ranks as a relative novice like a Julio Cesar Chavez or Salvador Sanchez. Arguello also had been a professional for a decade before evening moving into the Super Feather division. He was a highly experienced and polished multi-weight world champion whereas DLH was only a couple of years into his career. You would know better than I do, but I find it hard to believe that a DLH that green would have possessed all of the qualities in his arsenal that he would later be known for. It's difficult to gauge just how good a Super Featherweight Hoya was due to the fact he was fighting quite poor opposition. Carl Griffith? John Avila? Please tell more about these heavyweight talents, Turbo.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> He'd have done him just as bad if not worse in their respective primes at 135. Or is that more like common knowledge?


Here's some controversy for you all. I think Chavez had a good shot to beat Pea around '87-'88.

'89-'91 Was were Pea was at his absolute best IMO. That Whitaker beats Julio at 135lbs, but I still believe it would be more competitive than their '93 Welterweight encounter.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Against a tomato can sure, but hardly the look of a green fighter. I swear people forget hes a ghetto kid from east LA


I can't imagine why you would want to post DLH's debut. That opponent was pathetic even for a debut standard, he was looking for the canvas at every single opportunity. At least in Pea's debut the guy was taking full blooded combinations to the head and still refusing to go down. That was a proper work out and we saw enough of Pea's offensive arsenal and jab to know that he had serious talent. In this, DLH just threw some flurries where barely a clean shot landed and the guy looked to hit the canvas. I'm not hating on Hoya, he was a tremendous fighter and fuckin' pretty, but DLH learned absolutely nothing from this and neither did anyone watching it.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Arguello had a fairly extensive amateur career himself. He was no gold medalist, but he didn't enter the professional ranks as a relative novice like a Julio Cesar Chavez or Salvador Sanchez. Arguello also had been a professional for a decade before evening moving into the Super Feather division. He was a highly experienced and polished multi-weight world champion whereas DLH was only a couple of years into his career. You would know better than I do, but I find it hard to believe that a DLH that green would have possessed all of the qualities in his arsenal that he would later be known for. It's difficult to gauge just how good a Super Featherweight Hoya was due to the fact he was fighting quite poor opposition. Carl Griffith? John Avila? Please tell more about these heavyweight talents, Turbo.


Arguello was a professional longer sure, but a professional fighting professional cab drivers.

A gold medalist knows all of his tools. The hours of sparring shane, JCC, robinson, etc etc and there is no way he is going into the pros blind.

How much young Oscar have you actually watched? (honest)


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I can't imagine why you would want to post DLH's debut. That opponent was pathetic even for a debut standard, he was looking for the canvas at every single opportunity. At least in Pea's debut the guy was taking full blooded combinations to the head and still refusing to go down. That was a proper work out and we saw enough of Pea's offensive arsenal and jab to know that he had serious talent. In this, DLH just threw some flurries where barely a clean shot landed and the guy looked to hit the canvas. I'm not hating on Hoya, he was a tremendous fighter and fuckin' pretty, but DLH learned absolutely nothing from this and neither did anyone watching it.


Pea can't rattle a birdcage we've established this. The Pea beating on Hands of iron's perverted looking uncle wouldn't have lasted a minute if Oscar was landing that.

What'd Pea learn? How to target a mustache?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Bradley isn't top 3 p4p and the best welterweight in the world outside of Pac and Floyd. Shocking I know.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Here's some controversy for you all. I think Chavez had a good shot to beat Pea around '87-'88.
> 
> '89-'91 Was were Pea was at his absolute best IMO. That Whitaker beats Julio at 135lbs, but I still believe it would be more competitive than their '93 Welterweight encounter.


We've had this very discussion years ago and I think I agreed with you. I want to believe again.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Bradley isn't top 3 p4p and the best welterweight in the world outside of Pac and Floyd. Shocking I know.


Bradley's Overrated as Fuck For Real. I mean why are there threads talking about "Greater Fighter" between Timothy and Gasnelo? Absurd.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Aaron Pryor is the most overrated fighter ever. People swear by this guy. He's Taylor without the win over McGirt/Chavez yet people hail him


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@PityTheFool

Who's on this Top 10 ATG list of yours that you're hesitant to reveal despite knowing that you are correct?


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Arguello was a professional longer sure, but a professional fighting professional cab drivers.


Ruben Olivares was a professional cab driver? Ernesto Marcel? Alfredo Escalera was a dominant Super Featherweight champion in his own right who had taken the title from the excellent Japanese fighter Kuniaki Shibata. I have footage of all of these guys and it's evident that they were genuine world class operators with technique, craft and power. They were by no means professional cab drivers with padded records like you suggest. I concede that the likes of Limon and Chacon, although noteworthy names, were made to order for an Arguello and therefore shouldn't be looked on as anything more than capable scalps. DLH's competition at 130lbs was infinitely less impressive though. So much so that a side by side comparison would be a pointless exercise. How many of Arguello's defenses have you seen? (honest)



> How much young Oscar have you actually watched? (honest)


Admittedly not a lot. But I haven't made any predictions here with conviction, I'm merely subjecting some of your own contentions to scrutiny and seeing how well you hold up. I concede that DLH had plenty of qualities that would trouble someone like Arguello, who was most comfortable at his own pace and often struggled with movers and speedsters, but we have to put this hypothetical match-up into context. If it's being contested at Super Featherweight than we are really asking a relative notice in DLH to step into the ring with a multi-weight world champion who had shared a ring with the likes of Olivares, Escalera, Marcel, etc. Experience undeniably plays a factor in this sport. You can't discount it altogether, no matter how highly you rate an amateur De La Hoya. I mean, had this kid even gone 12 rounds? I don't think he had.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Ruben Olivares was a professional cab driver? Ernesto Marcel? Alfredo Escalera was a dominant Super Featherweight champion in his own right who had taken the title from the excellent Japanese fighter Kuniaki Shibata. I have footage of all of these guys and it's evident that they were genuine world class operators with technique, craft and power. They were by no means professional cab drivers with padded records like you suggest. I concede that the likes of Limon and Chacon, although noteworthy names, were made to order for an Arguello and therefore shouldn't be looked on as anything more than capable scalps. DLH's competition at 130lbs was infinitely less impressive though. So much so that a side by side comparison would be a pointless exercise. How much of Arguello's defenses have you seen?
> 
> How much young Oscar have you actually watched? (honest)


Admittedly not a lot. But I haven't made any predictions here with conviction, I'm merely subjecting some of your own contentions to scrutiny and seeing how well you hold up. I concede that DLH had plenty of qualities that would trouble someone like Arguello, who was most comfortable at his own pace and often struggled with movers and speedsters, but we have to put this hypothetical match-up into context. If it's being contested at Super Featherweight than we are really asking a relative notice in DLH to step into the ring with a multi-weight world champion who had shared a ring with the likes of Olivares, Escalera, Marcel, etc. Experience undeniably plays a factor in this sport. You can't discount it altogether, no matter how highly you rate an amateur De La Hoya.[/QUOTE]
Why are we speaking records really though. I think Oskee has the better skills H2H.

and I was speaking leading up to his world title. You're still speaking rheotorics here, Olivares was what the size of Prince Naz without the weight cuts? Same for a lot of Arguello's opponent's actually. He lost to Marcel. Couldn't even finish him when he had him hurt. Did Arguello ever fight anyone as big and talented as Delahoya? No. Did Oscar? No.

I just would pick Oscar to win if I saw them head to head.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Ruben Olivares was a professional cab driver? Ernesto Marcel? Alfredo Escalera was a dominant Super Featherweight champion in his own right who had taken the title from the excellent Japanese fighter Kuniaki Shibata. I have footage of all of these guys and it's evident that they were genuine world class operators with technique, craft and power. They were by no means professional cab drivers with padded records like you suggest. I concede that the likes of Limon and Chacon, although noteworthy names, were made to order for an Arguello and therefore shouldn't be looked on as anything more than capable scalps. DLH's competition at 130lbs was infinitely less impressive though. So much so that a side by side comparison would be a pointless exercise. How much of Arguello's defenses have you seen?
> 
> How much young Oscar have you actually watched? (honest)


Admittedly not a lot. But I haven't made any predictions here with conviction, I'm merely subjecting some of your own contentions to scrutiny and seeing how well you hold up. I concede that DLH had plenty of qualities that would trouble someone like Arguello, who was most comfortable at his own pace and often struggled with movers and speedsters, but we have to put this hypothetical match-up into context. If it's being contested at Super Featherweight than we are really asking a relative notice in DLH to step into the ring with a multi-weight world champion who had shared a ring with the likes of Olivares, Escalera, Marcel, etc. Experience undeniably plays a factor in this sport. You can't discount it altogether, no matter how highly you rate an amateur De La Hoya.[/QUOTE]
Why are we speaking records really though. I think Oskee has the better skills H2H.

and I was speaking leading up to his world title. You're still speaking rheotorics here, Olivares was what the size of Prince Naz without the weight cuts? Same for a lot of Arguello's opponent's actually. He lost to Marcel. Couldn't even finish him when he had him hurt. Did Arguello ever fight anyone as big and talented as Delahoya? No. Did Oscar? No.

I just would pick Oscar to win if I saw them head to head.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Aaron Pryor is the most overrated fighter ever. People swear by this guy. He's Taylor without the win over McGirt/Chavez yet people hail him


Arguello was still undeniably world class at 140lbs and therefore, in my estimation, a better fighter than McGirt. It's a better win than anything Taylor has. Pryor was also knocking out challengers to his WBA title left and right for 5 years. How long did Taylor hold on to his strap?

People try and play down Pryor's win over Arguello these days but I really don't see why. Arguello was bulldozing his way through the weights at this point and looked absolutely fabulous in sparking out Kevin Rooney in his introductory fight at 140lbs. Arguello didn't roll over against Pryor, he fought in what was probably the greatest fight of the decade, tooth and nail, for 14 rounds before being overcome by Pryor's pressure and power. Arguello was absolutely world class on the night otherwise he wouldn't have taken the shots he did and been anywhere near as competitive as he was. Pryor was just too much at that weight. Pryor may well have been too much for most Junior Welters on that night -- Tszyu, Chavez, Benitez etc. I honestly mean that.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Arguello was still undeniably world class at 140lbs and therefore, in my estimation, a better fighter than McGirt. It's a better win than anything Taylor has. Pryor was also knocking out challengers to his WBA title left and right for 5 years. How long did Taylor hold on to his strap?
> 
> People try and play down Pryor's win over Arguello these days but I really don't see why. Arguello was bulldozing his way through the weights at this point and looked absolutely fabulous in sparking out Kevin Rooney in his introductory fight at 140lbs. Arguello didn't roll over against Pryor, he fought in what was probably the greatest fight of the decade, tooth and nail, for 14 rounds before being overcome by Pryor's pressure and power. Arguello was absolutely world class on the night otherwise he wouldn't have taken the shots he did and been anywhere near as competitive as he was. Pryor was just too much at that weight.


Taylor beat Chavez. He did.

But we're not going there. I'm just saying people rate Pryor right up there, like right up there, which is laughable. He's excellent sure but so are a lot of world class fighters.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Why are we speaking records really though. I think Oskee has the better skills H2H.


Respective experience and quality of opposition is pertinent to the discussion in my opinion. If De La Hoya has never gone 12 rounds in his life and has only been fighting C-level fighters, what basis is there to suggest he could walk in with an established world champion like Alexis Arguello, who had been the 15 round distance more than once and been in with experienced former world champions, and win? I haven't seen much of early DLH so I concede that I probably am not qualified enough to know, but I would suggest that a Super Featherweight DLH isn't anywhere near as complete or as polished as the one at 140lbs or 147lbs. I joked earlier that a debut Pea could have won the world title. It was a joke though, of course he couldn't. He still had a lot to learn about the professional ranks, just as DLH did in his first few years as a Pro.



> and I was speaking leading up to his world title. You're still speaking rheotorics here, Olivares was what the size of Prince Naz without the weight cuts? Same for a lot of Arguello's opponent's actually. He lost to Marcel. Couldn't even finish him when he had him hurt. Did Arguello ever fight anyone as big and talented as Delahoya? No. Did Oscar? No.


None of these fighters are comparable physically to a DLH, of course they are not, but these were not professional cab drivers. All of the names you just mentioned would have posed a greater threat than any of the guys DLH was fighting at 130lbs. Who was the best guy he beat at these weights? I'll let you tell me because I'm sure you've watched all of these fights repeatedly. If anyone knows, you know.



> But we're not going there. I'm just saying people rate Pryor right up there, like right up there, which is laughable. He's excellent sure but so are a lot of world class fighters.


Ironically, I agree with you in that I also think Pryor is overrated. I don't think he would have done much with Ray Leonard at 147lbs and he simply did not achieve enough throughout his career to be ranked all that highly in an all-time sense. With that being said, he is one of the more accomplished Junior Welterweights of all time and his stoppages of Cervantes and Arguello are impressive. Especially the latter, because I believe the Arguello of '82 would have beaten a lot of Junior Welterweights. Ricky Hatton, Kosta Tszyu, Wilfred Benitez, etc. He'd be right there with them. It's speculative, but that's where I am.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Respective experience and quality of opposition is pertinent to the discussion in my opinion. If De La Hoya has never gone 12 rounds in his life and has only been fighting C-level fighters, what basis is there to suggest he could walk in with an established world champion like Alexis Arguello, who had been the 15 round distance more than once and been in with experienced former world champions, and win? I haven't seen much of early DLH so I concede that I probably am not qualified enough to know, but I would suggest that a Super Featherweight DLH isn't anywhere near as complete or as polished as the one at 140lbs or 147lbs. I joked earlier that a debut Pea could have won the world title. It was a joke though, of course he couldn't. He still had a lot to learn about the professional ranks, just as DLH did in his first few years as a Pro.
> 
> None of these fighters are comparable physically to a DLH, of course they are not, but these were not professional cab drivers. All of the names you just mentioned would have posed a greater threat than any of the guys DLH was fighting at 130lbs. Who was the best guy he beat at these weights? I'll let you tell me because I'm sure you've watched all of these fights repeatedly. If anyone knows, you know.
> 
> Ironically, I agree with you in that I also think Pryor is overrated. I don't think he would have done much with Ray Leonard at 147lbs and he simply did not achieve enough throughout his career to be ranked all that highly in an all-time sense. With that being said, he is one of the more accomplished Junior Welterweights of all time and his stoppages of Cervantes and Arguello are impressive. Especially the latter, because I believe the Arguello of '82 would have beaten a lot of Junior Welterweights. Ricky Hatton, Kosta Tszyu, Wilfred Benitez, etc. He'd be right there with them. It's speculative, but that's where I am.


Well to think Arguello would beat all of these guys is one thing, no disrespect to anyone here. That doesn't make it so. Rank Pryor as high as you like but Ill just have to have a chuckle at it.

I already told you I was speaking on his career before his title win.

A greater threat sure, but so would have Gatti or manfredy so its neither here nor there. Oscar ate up those types. I might as well have listed Paez as a win for Oskee if we're doing records and past smaller chance to prove greatness.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I love how the WBF is the new Classic.
> 
> C'mon dude.


Were all having fun here!


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

@turbotime, who were the other belt holders at 130lbs during DLH's reign there? I'm just curious.

In other news, Gilberto Roman is moments away from adding someone to his highlight reel.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> @turbotime, who were the other belt holders at 130lbs during DLH's reign there? I'm just curious.
> 
> In other news, *Gilberto Roman* is moment's away from adding someone to his highlight reel.


lol


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

:lol: And that is why I talk about dead fighters, not active ones. 

I'm not even going to correct it.


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## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Bradley isn't top 3 p4p.


Nobody is claiming that. Do learn to read.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Pryor may well have been too much for Chavez on that night. I honestly mean that.


You're on fire tonight but you know I have to respectfully disagree with this. Pryor was without a doubt a relentless offensive dynamo, but a big part of the reason he was too much IMO is because Arguello simply didn't carry the same level of punching power up to 140 lbs and blasting out Kevin Rooney doesn't do a whole lot to change my mind on that. Pryor's defense was absolutely horrid to boot, holes everywhere. Julio would break that man down brutally with or without Panama Lewis.

Arguello's otherwise been painted as pretty damn infallible here tonight but I've been trying to read through this while driving (bad lol) so apologies if that isn't really the case at all. He lost to Fernandez yes - a fighter he really had no business losing to, regardless of styles - but Jose Luis Ramirez as well if we're honest and that's before stepping up to 140.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You're on fire tonight but you know I have to respectfully disagree with this. Pryor was without a doubt a relentless offensive dynamo, but a big part of the reason he was too much IMO is because Arguello simply didn't carry the same level of punching power up to 140 lbs and blasting out Kevin Rooney doesn't do a whole lot to change my mind on that. Pryor's defense was absolutely horrid to boot, holes everywhere. Julio would break that man down brutally with or without Panama Lewis.
> 
> Arguello's otherwise been painted as pretty damn infallible here tonight but I've been trying to read through this while driving (bad lol) so apologies if that isn't really the case at all. He lost to Fernandez yes - a fighter he really had no business losing to, regardless of styles - but Jose Luis Ramirez as well if we're honest and that's before stepping up to 140.


did u honestly not read any of @McGrain s write up about AA in the top 100?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Muhammad Ali won 8 rounds in Frazier I (FOTC)

Jimmy Young is a top 4 heavyweight of the 1970s and doesn't get enough respek still

Chavez would own DLH prime for prime

Ricardo Lopez is sickeningly underrated these days. Fuck the resume, the eye test is better than any ATG and the undefeated record is better than Mayweather's.

Castillo didn't beat Floyd or come close to it frankly. Maidana did a better job on Floyd, albeit a faded Floyd.

Morales is clearly the best fighter between Barrera, marquez and Morales.

Holyfield in his prime would always beat lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, and Larry Holmes

Floyd Patterson destroys Roy Jones at light heavyweight or heavyweight

Pound for pound, what Patterson, Roy jones and Holyfield did is more impressive than what Floyd and Pacquaio did. Those 3 that i mentioned were regularly outweighed by 30 pounds and did it without catchweight nonsense and almost always fought their opponents when they were close to their primes.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> :lol: And that is why I talk about dead fighters, not active ones.
> 
> I'm not even going to correct it.


correct it! hes from your hero's homeland FFS


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> did u honestly not read any of @McGrain s write up about AA in the top 100?


The Top 20.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The Top 20.


sigh


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Were all having fun here!


Should just merge them tbh. There's another separate British & Irish forum (by far the most active) as well as an Australian one. It's overkill for the number of posters there are, which isn't very many really. No idea how those folks can be so interested and invested in such average fighters from the local scene but god bless them.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> You're on fire tonight but you know I have to respectfully disagree with this. Pryor was without a doubt a relentless offensive dynamo, but a big part of the reason he was too much IMO is because Arguello simply didn't carry the same level of punching power up to 140 lbs and blasting out Kevin Rooney doesn't do a whole lot to change my mind on that. Pryor's defense was absolutely horrid to boot, holes everywhere. Julio would break that man down brutally with or without Panama Lewis.


Arguello was a concussive puncher as a Lightweight and pretty much banged everyone out at 140lbs bar Pryor and Fernandez.



















All the evidence suggests to me then that, actually, Pryor just had a great chin. And we never saw Pryor come anywhere close to being broken down. Never ever did we see even an ounce of quit in him before the drug abuse, so it takes an ambitious man to predict that "Chavez would break that man down brutally". I just don't see it personally. I actually see Pryor staying right in there and winning rounds with his work rate and fast hands. He wasn't as fast Taylor, but he had faster hands than Chavez and threw in bunches. We know Pryor could take hard shots and recover from them -- he did it against big 140lbs punchers in Cervantes and, in my opinion, Arguello.



> Arguello's otherwise been painted as pretty damn infallible here tonight but I've been trying to read through this while driving (bad lol) so apologies if that isn't really the case at all. He lost to Fernandez yes - a fighter he really had no business losing to, regardless of styles - but Jose Luis Ramirez as well if we're honest and that's before stepping up to 140.


Please feel free to dissect my posts and point out where I have failed to be measured and accurate with my descriptions of Alexis Arguello. I have been the first to point out his weaknesses, his losses and the stylistic disadvantages he would face against a young De La Hoya. Quite honestly, I don't know how you could have read anything that I have said and come to the conclusion that anybody, anywhere, has been painting Arguello as infallible.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Should just merge them tbh. There's another separate British & Irish forum (by far the most active) as well as an Australian one. It's overkill for the number of posters there are, which isn't very many really. No idea how those folks can be so interested and invested in such average fighters from the local scene but god bless them.


They hate Americans.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

The controversy :lol:

Anyhow fight of the night is on UFC


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Best staredown in Boxing history.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Even @Zopilote loves Whitaker. You want a Non-Flomo @MichiganWarrior? Ask him if he can rate Floyd above in good conscience. He's TBE.


1. Pea
2. Roy
3. Floyd
12357. Tim Bradley



Hands of Iron said:


> Bradley's Overrated as Fuck For Real. I mean why are there threads talking about "Greater Fighter" between Timothy and Gasnelo? Absurd.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Arguello was a concussive puncher as a Lightweight and pretty much banged everyone out at 140lbs bar Pryor and Fernandez.
> 
> All the evidence suggests to me then that, actually, Pryor just had a great chin. And we never saw Pryor come anywhere close to being broken down. Never ever did we see even an ounce of quit in him before the drug abuse, so it takes an ambitious man to predict that "Chavez would break that man down brutally". I just don't see it personally. I actually see Pryor staying right in there and winning rounds with his work rate and fast hands. He wasn't as fast Taylor, but he had faster hands than Chavez and threw in bunches. We know Pryor could take hard shots and recover from them -- he did it against big 140lbs punchers in Cervantes and, in my opinion, Arguello.


I just see Chavez on a different tier in terms of skill level. You're right, Aaron didn't have hands as fast as Taylor, not anywhere close actually and as hittable as Meldrick was himself, he didn't stand and fight (against better judgment) for the entirety of that bout like Pryor would be inclined to do lest he be on the wrong end of a clinic. Might have been an impulsive and emotional response but it's honestly ridiculous to me you think he'd be "too much" for Chavez. That's an ambitious claim in it's own right IMO, especially given his being far better suited to 140 than Alexis was (and late career to boot) as well JCC's vastly superior defensive capabilities. I just don't see Pryor landing shots at a significantly higher rate if at all, nevermind the better ones.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> They hate Americans.


Meant merging World Boxing and Historical. Those other cats are in their own little worlds over there.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Meldrick Taylor>>>Pryor for sure


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I just see Chavez on a different tier in terms of skill level. You're right, Aaron didn't have hands as fast as Taylor, not anywhere close actually and as hittable as Meldrick was himself, he didn't stand and fight (against better judgment) for the entirety of that bout like Pryor would be inclined to do lest he be on the wrong end of a clinic. Might have been an impulsive and emotional response but it's honestly ridiculous to me you think he'd be "too much" for Chavez. That's an ambitious claim in it's own right IMO, especially given his being far better suited to 140 than Alexis was (and late career to boot) as well JCC's vastly superior defensive capabilities. I just don't see Pryor landing shots at a significantly higher rate if at all, nevermind the better ones.


You've misquoted me though which changes the entire complexion of what I said. I didn't say "Pryor would be too much for Chavez", I said "Pryor may well have been too much for most Junior Welters on that night -- Tszyu, Chavez, Benitez etc." That's a completely different statement altogether. I'm clearly not making any statements with conviction, as evidenced by the "may well", I'm merely making the point that, in my mind, the Pryor of '82 Arguello was world class and would have beaten a lot of great Junior Welterweights. Dare I say you've been a little disingenuous here.



> Meldrick Taylor>>>Pryor for sure


Are you saying Taylor was better, greater or a more formidable opponent H2H? What does this even mean?


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Just that Meldrick, at his best, was better. Pryor was lucky to have fought an older, faded Arguello. Arguello was better at the lower weights. This is an undisputed fact, you can post that GIF that I made of Rooney KO all you want, but Arguello was not at his best, Addie. 

Also ,the win is tainted because of the mystery asthma pills mixed drink which gave Pryor enough strength to take Arguello out. Aside from that win there is really nothing special about Pryor's resume, Pryor is really really wild and unrefined at his best, these intangibles made him great but they also have to be considered flaws.

So yeah, to me Taylor has the better resume, is better head to head and is better prime for prime compared to Pryor.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> You've misquoted me though which changes the entire complexion of what I said. I didn't say "Pryor would be too much for Chavez", I said "Pryor may well have been too much for most Junior Welters on that night -- Tszyu, Chavez, Benitez etc." That's a completely different statement altogether. I'm clearly not making any statements with conviction, as evidenced by the "may well", I'm merely making the point that, in my mind, the Pryor of '82 Arguello was world class and would have beaten a lot of great Junior Welterweights. Dare I say you've been a little disingenuous here.


Distracted actually, which is why I completely left the other portion of your quote at home, was wrong about that. All I'm saying is that Chavez was way too surgical with this bitch for Pryor to even "may have" been too much. I can't see it at all, and that's with conviction. I don't even directly favor Duran in a straight up dogfight on the inside with Julio, he'd need to blend in his boxer-puncher side, mid-range countering ability and quicker feet just as Whitaker was in and out and utilizing lateral movement despite having success in JCC's office.



> Are you saying Taylor was better, greater or a more formidable opponent H2H? What does this even mean?


Huh? Well, I'd say Meldrick poses more problems H2H for Chavez. He was not a... Nevermind, that's Tommy you're quoting...


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Maybe if Meldrick Taylor got a mystery mixed asthma pills drink before the 12th, he would have survived Chavez.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I'd pick GGG to knock out Harry Greb


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Just that Meldrick, at his best, was better. Pryor was lucky to have fought an older, faded Arguello. Arguello was better at the lower weights. This is an undisputed fact, you can post that GIF that I made of Rooney KO all you want, but Arguello was not at his best, Addie.
> 
> Also ,the win is tainted because of the mystery asthma pills mixed drink which gave Pryor enough strength to take Arguello out. Aside from that win there is really nothing special about Pryor's resume, Pryor is really really wild and unrefined at his best, these intangibles made him great but they also have to be considered flaws.
> 
> So yeah, to me Taylor has the better resume, is better head to head and is better prime for prime compared to Pryor.


I have a particular distaste for him because of the Sugar Ray Leonard bullshit. The utterly laughable fucking bullshit. The mystery drink doesn't help. I don't like him at all.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I have a particular distaste for him because of the Sugar Ray Leonard bullshit. The utterly laughable fucking bullshit. The mystery drink doesn't help. I don't like him at all.


Lol, it is kind of laughable that this idea that Leonard ducked Pryor is still around today. It's been debunked several times and a quick google search will show that Leonard made several career high offers and Pryor turned them down. As a 19 year old I know this so there is no excuse frankly.

If Pryor moved up to 147, he would have been sparked by Leonard. no doubt.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Just that Meldrick, at his best, was better. Pryor was lucky to have fought an older, faded Arguello. Arguello was better at the lower weights. This is an undisputed fact, you can post that GIF that I made of Rooney KO all you want, but Arguello was not at his best, Addie.


Who's disputing the facts, Tommy? Why are you resorting to straw man arguments? I have never said or implied that Arguello was as good or as effective at Junior Welterweight as he was at 130lbs. If you had followed the discussion, then you would know that the purpose of posting the Rooney knockout was to support my contention that Arguello was still a great hitter at 140lbs. @Hands of Iron thinks otherwise. In my mind, there is no reason to think Arguello wasn't a great hitter at 140lbs when you consider what he did to Rooney, Costello and virtually every fighter he fought at that weight not named Pryor or Fernandez. He hadn't knocked Fernandez out in their first fight, in fact he lost, so his failure to stop him at 140lbs is indicative of nothing.



> Also ,the win is tainted because of the mystery asthma pills mixed drink which gave Pryor enough strength to take Arguello out. Aside from that win there is really nothing special about Pryor's resume, Pryor is really really wild and unrefined at his best, these intangibles made him great but they also have to be considered flaws.


I don't know if the drink had played a factor and neither do you. What I do know is that both fighters agreed to rematch and that Arguello was stopped even quicker the next time. If Pryor had been a fighter with lousy stamina and a bum chin prior to the Arguello fight then I would be liable to question the controversy more vehemently, but Pryor was never known to have stamina or chin issues.



> So yeah, to me Taylor has the better resume, is better head to head and is better prime for prime compared to Pryor.


Thanks for the clarification.



Hands of Iron said:


> Distracted actually, which is why I completely left the other portion of your quote at home, was wrong about that. All I'm saying is that Chavez was way too surgical with this bitch for Pryor to even "may have" been too much. I can't see it at all, and that's with conviction. I don't even directly favor Duran in a straight up dogfight on the inside with Julio, he'd need to blend in his boxer-puncher side, mid-range countering ability and quicker feet just as Whitaker was in and out and utilizing lateral movement despite having success in JCC's office.


And I completely respect your opinion on this and actually, thinking about it, you make valid points about Chavez's defensive capabilities comparatively to Arguello's and I'm sure Pryor would be less successful than he had been against the Nicaraguan. I don't know if Pryor would win or not. I haven't given the hypothetical enough thought. But my point was, and I think you know this, is that I view Pryor on that night as having beaten a great fighter in Alexis Arguello. He may have been faded, but only a great fighter would have defeated that Arguello in my opinion. Severely shopworn fighters don't show that level of offensive capability and stamina over the course of a really, really hard 14 round fight with a buzz saw like Pryor. It just doesn't happen. So, what I'm saying is, Pryor too was a great fighter, and his combination of stamina, durability, speed and power is going to be a problem for anybody, Chavez included.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> If you had followed the discussion, then you would know that the purpose of posting the Rooney knockout was to support my contention that Arguello was still a great hitter at 140lbs. @Hands of Iron thinks otherwise. In my mind, there is no reason to think Arguello wasn't a great hitter at 140lbs when you consider what he did to Rooney, Costello and virtually every fighter he fought at that weight not named Pryor or Fernandez. He hadn't knocked Fernandez out in their first fight, in fact he lost, so his failure to stop him at 140lbs is indicative of nothing.


I haven't been following the discussion but of course he was still a monster hitter at 140. Just moreso at 130-135



Pedderrs said:


> I don't know if the drink had played a factor and neither do you. What I do know is that both fighters agreed to rematch and that Arguello was stopped even quicker the next time. If Pryor had been a fighter with lousy stamina and a bum chin prior to the Arguello fight then I would be liable to question the controversy more vehemently, but Pryor was never known to have stamina or chin issues.


Um.. Clearly, the drink played a factor, otherwise Panama Lewis wouldn't have served it. This guy is a dirty trainer and also tampered with Luis Resto's gloves. He was always looking for an extra advantage for his fighter. Arguello was already an old fighter by then and was definitely not at his best vs Pryor, that's the point. Pryor was taking big punishment the rounds before the drink and he would have been fucked if not for the drink IMO. Science tells you that the drink played a factor.

Yeah I didn't read the entire thread and I didn't really see the context of what you are arguing, just saying that Meldrick Taylor is a greater, better ffgither overall to Pryor, I'd expect Taylor to beat Pryor on points in a war.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm not going to get into a debate with you about "the drink" Tommy because it's too contentious a topic. There are question marks surrounding the controversy and quite frankly I'm not prepared to dismiss and discredit Pryor's performance altogether because of it.

I'm glad to hear we agree that Arguello was still a big hitter at 140lbs, but I don't agree that Taylor was a greater fighter than Aaron Pryor. Taylor had a very short period at the top of the game and there was never really a time in his career where you could say he was dominant for extended periods. He came unstuck somewhat controversially against Chavez and afterwards, despite winning a belt at Welter, never really hit the top again. The stoppages against Terry Norris and Julio Cesar Chavez all but ended his time as a major player. Taylor's career was practically over before it even started. I think also there is a tendency for people to overrate the McGirt win. It's probably because he did well against Pea in the first fight.

Aaron Pryor on the other hand was dominant for 4-5 years as WBA World Junior Welterweight champion, stopping the vast majority of his challengers inside the distance. There were a few no-names mixed in there and on the whole his competition wasn't what you would call fantastic, but knocking out Cervantes was noteworthy, as was stopping Arguello in 1982. I suppose it would all depend on how highly one would rank Arguello of '82, and for me he was still one of the very best in the sport. I rate it higher than Taylor's win over McGirt, and I rate the Cervantes win higher than Taylor's over Davis. It's clear to me that Pryor had the better signature wins and he was more consistent and dominant during his 140lbs title run.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> And I completely respect your opinion on this and actually, thinking about it, you make valid points about Chavez's defensive capabilities comparatively to Arguello's and I'm sure Pryor would be less successful than he had been against the Nicaraguan. I don't know if Pryor would win or not. I haven't given the hypothetical enough thought. But my point was, and I think you know this, is that I view Pryor on that night as having beaten a great fighter in Alexis Arguello. He may have been faded, but only a great fighter would have defeated that Arguello in my opinion. Severely shopworn fighters don't show that level of offensive capability and stamina over the course of a really, really hard 14 round fight with a buzz saw like Pryor. It just doesn't happen. So, what I'm saying is, Pryor too was a great fighter, and his combination of stamina, durability, speed and power is going to be a problem for anybody, Chavez included.


Fair enough, bruv. I'd also admit my response was a bit too emotional and recant the sensationalism. It's a highly competitive affair I think Julio gets the better of based on greater overall skill, technique and defensive capabilities, particularly in close quarters. That was not just in relation to Arguello, but compared to Pryor himself. JCC wasn't near as slippery in terms of reflexes as Robearto(e) but he knew how to slip and roll with the best of them. Well above average defense IMO, particularly for the style he implemented. ATG Chin himself to back it up should shots get through and I'm not suggesting they never did. You know this.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Fair enough, bruv. I'd also admit my response was a bit too emotional and recant the sensationalism. It's a highly competitive affair I think Julio gets the better of based on greater overall skill, technique and defensive capabilities, particularly in close quarters. That was not just in relation to Arguello, but compared to Pryor himself. JCC wasn't near as slippery in terms of reflexes as Robearto(e) but he knew how to slip and roll with the best of them. Well above average defense IMO, particularly for the style he implemented. ATG Chin himself to back it up should shots get through and I'm not suggesting they never did. You know this.


I watched Chavez-Tszyu earlier today. I think the same would have happened to a prime Chavez. You just don't fuck with the ponytail.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I watched Chavez-Tszyu earlier today. I think the same would have happened to a prime Chavez. You just don't fuck with the ponytail.


I've still yet to see it, and don't imagine I will. 

I actually feel bit silly to come storming into this thread like that. I can say all kinds of devaluing sort of shit but anyone else, even if that isn't the intent, even if they're just as big of fan's of the man and equally if not more greatly clued up... Well, that's just unacceptable and I come out guns blazing. :rofl No wonder @Bogotazo used to call me "Like the knowledgeable but crazy ranting uncle".


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I've still yet to see it, and don't imagine I will.
> 
> I actually feel bit silly to come storming into this thread like that. I can say all kinds of devaluing sort of shit but anyone else, even if that isn't the intent, even if they're just as big of fan's of the man and equally if not more greatly clued up... Well, that's just unacceptable and I come out guns blazing. :rofl No wonder @Bogotazo used to call me "Like the knowledgeable but crazy ranting uncle".


Nah, I turned it off after the first round. I couldn't watch it. Julio was unsteady on his feet before a punch was even thrown. Honestly, one of the most badly faded fighters to have ever fought for a title. How he was number one contender to anything having been dominated by fuckin' Willy Wise is laughable. A travesty. He was about as shot as a shot fighter could possibly be.

Not at all, Hoi. Fair play for calling me out on the Pryor vs Chavez issue.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Nah, I turned it off after the first round. I couldn't watch it. Julio was unsteady on his feet before a punch was even thrown. Honestly, one of the most badly faded fighters to have ever fought for a title. How he was number one contender to anything having been dominated by fuckin' Willy Wise is laughable. A travesty. He was about as shot as a shot fighter could possibly be.
> 
> Not at all, Hoi. Fair play for calling me out on the Pryor vs Chavez issue.


So sad.

And of course, I'm not saying I didn't have valid points (I ALWAYS DO :ibutt) just that I'm a passionate poster. There are topics I get too emotionally invested in but rather than start hurling personal insults and all that other stuff (never), I go for hyperbole and sensationalism where the topic at hand is concerned. I end up having to go back and re-work the delivery of what I'm putting across instead of doing it in a measured manner in the first place.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Chavez got styled on by Willy Wise for fuck's sake. His team letting him anywhere near KT was just stupid.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Meant merging World Boxing and Historical. Those other cats are in their own little worlds over there.


No....Mag scares me.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Chavez got styled on by Willy Wise for fuck's sake. His team letting him anywhere near KT was just stupid.


Oskee took the last bit of steam out of him. I think about the '98 rematch lot. Far more than I ever should.



> No....Mag scares me.


Why? He's an easy out. Just ridiculously stubborn.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Oskee took the last bit of steam out of him. I think about the '98 rematch lot. Far more than I ever should.
> 
> Why? He's an easy out. Just ridiculously stubborn.


Yeah the Oskee party got rough really quick. He was on a nice little run prior to that.

Mag needs to stay out of the WBF. They are all a bit nuts over there.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah the Oskee party got rough really quick. He was on a nice little run prior to that.
> 
> Mag needs to stay out of the WBF. They are all a bit nuts over there.


Oscar just seemed to be almost comically pissed off. In both fights. He's scary when he gets like that, I don't care if he has a big, black dildo stuck up his ass, that Oscar is a dangerous man. I felt like he hated him and almost wanted to kill him.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Oscar just seemed to be almost comically pissed off. In both fights. He's scary when he gets like that, I don't care if he has a big, black dildo stuck up his ass, that Oscar is a dangerous man. I felt like he hated him and almost wanted to kill him.


And I respect that about guys. He probably had dad yelling in his ear the night before. Took it out on an opponent the next day. Do what you gotta do sometimes.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> And I respect that about guys. He probably had dad yelling in his ear the night before. Took it out on an opponent the next day. Do what you gotta do sometimes.


I think most of it had to do with the fact that Chavez was refusing to give him any credit for TKO4 after opening up the cut Julio sustained mere weeks prior to the fight. De La Hoya was just such a different monster two years later and Julio hadn't gotten any younger to say the least.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Were all having fun here!


CHB is quite clearly back, Motherfucker. Recent threads doing 100+ replies EZ work. On the strength of just a handful... These other folks on the fence need to get involved. Pedderrs needs to dumb down his content just a tad though, they probably feel they aren't man enough to fuck with him. Scared Cowards. They haven't seen him though.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

C'mon Fellas

@PityTheFool 
@2manyusernames
@adamcanavan
@chris1412
@Chacal
@JamieC
@Divi253
@Havik
@pipe wrenched
@Vaitor
@church11
@Ivan Drago


----------



## JamieC (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> C'mon Fellas
> 
> @PityTheFool
> @2manyusernames
> ...


Garcia beating Lucas was a mixture of good fortune (thumb in the eye) and extremely generous officiating and he could not have repeated the trick.


----------



## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

Calzaghe just doesnt lose to black guys,UD's all the Murderers Row,compubox machine cant even read the punch output

I think Death Warrant should be ranked right up there with AWOL as Van Dammes finest,5.6 out of 10 on imdb! Get voting people


----------



## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

Bowe is/was superior to Lewis, had they fought back in 1992/93 Bowe would've won byT/KO & this opinion wouldn't be controversial


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Jdempsey85 said:


> I think Death Warrant should be ranked right up there with AWOL as Van Dammes finest,5.6 out of 10 on imdb! Get voting people












The Sandman was by far the weakest guy on JC's win column. I don't mean overall, because obviously JC beat a lot of stiffs on the way to fighting Attila, but in terms of the top tier guys, the end bosses; Sandman was undeniably B level. He was ugly as sin, too. Probably even uglier than Tong Po and Chong Li. I'm sorry bro, I might even take Sudden Death and Nowhere to Run over Death Warrant. For what Nowhere to Run lacked in spin kicks, it more than made up for with a half naked Rosanna Arquette. Ka-boom.


----------



## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> The Sandman was by far the weakest guy on JC's win column. I don't mean overall, because obviously JC beat a lot of stiffs on the way to fighting Attila, but in terms of the top tier guys, the end bosses; Sandman was undeniably B level. He was ugly as sin, too. Probably even uglier than Tong Po and Chong Li. I'm sorry bro, I might even take Sudden Death and Nowhere to Run over Death Warrant.


I cant see Chong Li & Po two cartoon villains compared to the Sandman running a folsom like penetentiary with the ferocity he did,both would be sucking dicks for the Sandmans pimping empire within a week.

I might watch Death Warrant this afternoon


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Jdempsey85 said:


> I cant see Chong Li & Po two cartoon villains compared to the Sandman running a folsom like penetentiary with the ferocity he did,both would be sucking dicks for the Sandmans pimping empire within a week.
> 
> I might watch Death Warrant this afternoon


Tong Po and Chong Li were too busy paralysing and in some cases killing professional fighters to be running any penitentiary. They would never allow themselves to be caught by the police alive either. They were cut from different cloth to The Sandman, who was truly slapped by JC in the end.


----------



## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Tong Po and Chong Li were too busy paralysing and in some cases killing professional fighters to be running any penitentiary. They would never allow themselves to be caught by the police alive either. They were cut from different cloth to The Sandman, who was truly slapped by JC in the end.


Po bought the police,Sandman loved it in the Pen anyway.He doesnt lose to a 7stone Jason Stillwell neither,what a shambles that was


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Oscar just seemed to be almost comically pissed off. In both fights. He's scary when he gets like that, I don't care if he has a big, black dildo stuck up his ass, that Oscar is a dangerous man. I felt like he hated him and almost wanted to kill him.


Oscar was a raging beast.
When facing past-prime burritos.

Hagler, when facing unforgiving blackness.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Jdempsey85 said:


> Po bought the police,Sandman loved it in the Pen anyway.He doesnt lose to a 7stone Jason Stillwell neither,what a shambles that was


JC was green against Stillwell so that's not fair. Once he was able to undergo training with Senzo and Xian then he just went to a whole new level. Stillwell ducked him from then on and never entertained a sequel. It's basically Tszyu-Phillips. We never saw a return bout but everyone pretty much concedes that Tszyu would have won one with little problems.


----------



## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> JC was green against Stillwell so that's not fair. Once he was able to undergo training with Senzo and Xian then he just went to a whole new level. Stillwell ducked him from then on and never entertained a sequel. It's basically Tszyu-Phillips. We never saw a return bout but everyone pretty much concedes that Tszyu would have won one with little problems.


The Sandman was like a Bundy or a Dahmer it all came naturally,self taught with zero help from a Tanaka type mentor.

Stillwell will ALWAYS have his number,just like Prescott knows he can ko Amir anytime


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Jdempsey85 said:


> The Sandman was like a Bundy or a Dahmer it all came naturally,self taught with zero help from a Tanaka type mentor.
> 
> Stillwell will ALWAYS have his number,just like Prescott knows he can ko Amir anytime


Baseless! Stillwell faded into obscurity after his lucky victory over JC. JC, in complete contrast, trained vigorously in the high altitude of the Hollywood Hills, honing his craft and perfecting his spin kick. It's what you do in this business that comes to define you and JC went on to claim some heavyweight scalps in Tong Po, Chong Li, Attila, Scott, Fender, Khan and Bison. Undeniably an all time great whereas Stillwell's career ended before it even started. He never wanted that sequel which would have earned him a career high pay day, because he knew JC had moved on from when they first fought in Seattle.


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Julio Cesar Chavez sr is slightly overrated (don't kill me)


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

knowimuch said:


> Julio Cesar Chavez sr is slightly overrated (don't kill me)












@Hands of Iron @Zopilote


----------



## Jdempsey85 (Jan 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Baseless! Stillwell faded into obscurity after his lucky victory over JC. JC, in complete contrast, trained vigorously in the high altitude of the Hollywood Hills, honing his craft and perfecting his spin kick. It's what you do in this business that comes to define you and JC went on to claim some heavyweight scalps in Tong Po, Chong Li, Attila, Scott, Fender, Khan and Bison. Undeniably an all time great whereas Stillwell's career ended before it even started. He never wanted that sequel which would have earned him a career high pay day, because he knew JC had moved on from when they first fought in Seattle.


Stillwell was also the green one in their battle anyway,A weeks training with a Bruce Lee faker plus R.J working strength&conditioning!!

Stillwell was the Dave Tiberi of his day he got the scalp then walked away unhurt with the girl,A real hero


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Jdempsey85 said:


> Stillwell was also the green one in their battle anyway,A weeks training with a Bruce Lee faker plus R.J working strength&conditioning!!
> 
> Stillwell was the Dave Tiberi of his day he got the scalp then walked away unhurt with the girl,A real hero


You've broken me.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Julio would break that man down brutally with or without Richard Steele.
> Preferably with Richard!
> And no rabbit punches!





Crazy Ranting Cream Sh-Boogie Pop said:


> I have a particular distaste for him because of the Sugar Ray Leonard's coach experience.





Purple Balls said:


> Well, I'd say Meldrick poses more problems H2H for Chavez.
> Because he beat him, you know.


It really is heartwarming that all your idols were brutally crushed, both physically and mentally, by one humble law-abiding citizen:

- Stay salty, South Dakota.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> It really is heartwarming that all your idols were brutally crushed, both physically and mentally, by one humble law-abiding citizen:
> 
> - Stay salty, South Dakota.


RedRooster. I knew it!


----------



## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

I don't know if this is controversial as much as obscure-as-fuck.
If Ernie Schaaf hadn't died in the ring vs Primo Carnera, he'd have been World Heavyweight Champion and Jim Braddock would never have won it from Max Bear. There'd be no 'Cindarella Man' story.

Archie Moore P4P has better defense than Mayweather, Whitaker, Hopkins and Toney


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> Here's some controversy for you all. I think Chavez had a good shot to beat Pea around '87-'88.


It's not that controversial.

More like not controversial at all.

Chavez was at his peak and Whitaker was still a fight or two away from his prime, ring generalship-wise.

The post Ramirez 1 Whitaker beats Chavez.

The Ramirez 1/pre-Ramirez Whitaker is a fight Chavez can win.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> RedRooster. I knew it!


It finally all makes sense.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

knowimuch said:


> Julio Cesar Chavez sr is slightly overrated (don't kill me)


You're too big. Could probably say that to my face and I wouldn't do shit. On here though?!:bogo


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> It's not that controversial.
> 
> More like not controversial at all.
> 
> ...


There isn't really a scenario where the fight happens pre-Ramirez I, so it's kind of moot. They robbed Pernell in that fight so Chavez could go on to unify with Ramirez. It was a travesty beyond being a mere disgraceful decision. There wasn't going to be any unifying of jack shit had Pea gotten the nod he deserved. Not for Chavez, anyway.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Once Pea goes mainstream, if that ever happens, Hoi is going to be talking about how he was a feather-fisted runner. I've got to give Pea his props, he never left his tracksuit in the changing room like Amir Khan does.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Once Pea goes mainstream, if that ever happens, Hoi is going to be talking about how he was a feather-fisted runner. I've got to give Pea his pros, he never left his tracksuit in the changing room like Amir Khan does.


If he wasn't #2, it's likely none of this would be coming out of my finger tips. That's just too close to bullshit or pull any punches. And Chavez is pretty damn mainstream, brah.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> If he wasn't #2, it's likely none of this would be coming out of my finger tips. That's just too close to bullshit or pull any punches. And Chavez is pretty damn mainstream, brah.


You're only complimentary about JCC to make Pea's performance seem even greater. You're transparent brah. In reality, Chavez was the era's Humberto Gonzalez just without Humberto's cast iron jaw and punching technique. Pea needed a signature win to put him up with the greats but he decided to become a coke fiend instead. It's a sad story.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> You're only complimentary about JCC to make Pea's performance seem even greater. You're transparent brah.


Complimentary.

:lol:


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Michael Spinks gets Jones Jr out of there inside the distance at 175lbs. This ain't no Clinton Woods. Spinks was too awkward, too unorthodox and hit too hard for Jones, whose game was based largely on speed, timing and anticipation rather than any fundamental boxing skill. Spinks would be offering so many feints and angles that Jones wouldn't know what fuckin' day it was. The early rounds are a write off for arguably the slowest starter in the history of the sport, but by the mid-rounds Jones is getting touched. And Spinks hit too hard for that mandible. Too big, too awkward, too hard-hitting; Jones' boots are smoked.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Michael Spinks gets Jones Jr out of there inside the distance at 175lbs. This ain't no Clinton Woods. Spinks was too awkward, too unorthodox and hit too hard for Jones, whose game was based largely on speed, timing and anticipation rather than any fundamental boxing skill. Spinks would be offering so many feints and angles that Jones wouldn't know what fuckin' day it was. The early rounds are a write off for arguably the slowest starter in the history of the sport, but by the mid-rounds Jones is getting touched. And Spinks hit too hard for that mandible. Too big, too awkward, too hard-hitting; Jones' boots are smoked.


Can absolutely get down with this.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Can absolutely get down with this.


Mike is a horrible match-up stylistically for Jones, in my opinion. Like I said, Jones' game was based largely on anticipation and timing, but how do you anticipate Spinks' movements? You can't. The guy was too fuckin' unorthodox and awkward. Consider also that this dude was big -- 6'2.5, 76'' reach. Jones does well early but once he starts getting touched by Spinks, who threw with both hands and from all angles, then I think you would start to see Jones go into his shell a bit. I could see a highlight reel knockout in the later rounds.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Mike is a horrible match-up stylistically for Jones, in my opinion. Like I said, Jones' game was based largely on anticipation and timing, but how do you anticipate Spinks' movements? You can't. The guy was too fuckin' unorthodox and awkward. Consider also that this dude was big -- 6'2.5, 76'' reach. Jones does well early but once he starts getting touched by Spinks, who threw with both hands and from all angles, then I think you would start to see Jones go into his shell a bit. I could see a highlight reel knockout in the later rounds.


Mike Spinks is the Best H2H Light Heavyweight of All-Time and a Top 5 ATG at the weight outright. Him being a problem stylistically and with the attributes he brings to the table are just cherries. Pretty amazing when you take that and then consider he legitimately dethroned Larry Holmes at Heavyweight in the first bout. An absolutely jaw dropping career considering the brevity in terms of how few fights he had.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Mike Spinks is the Best H2H Light Heavyweight of All-Time and a Top 5 ATG at the weight outright. Him being a problem stylistically and with the attributes he brings to the table are just cherries. Pretty amazing when you take that and then consider he legitimately dethroned Larry Holmes at Heavyweight in the first bout. An absolutely jaw dropping career considering the brevity in terms of how few fights he had.


Unfortunately Spinks' victories over Holmes are often given the Leonard-Hagler treatment.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> They robbed Pernell


I wanted to make a joke about Whitaker but I couldn't.

My arms uncontrollably bolo punched me in my own face.

Luckily in addition to being a devastating hitter I also have a titanium chin.

But that served as a good reminder that you should never disrespect Sweet Pea.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Mike Spinks is the Best H2H Light Heavyweight of All-Time


- Well lawdy, lawdy, lawdy miss clawdy!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Unfortunately Spinks' victories over Holmes are often given the Leonard-Hagler treatment.


Lester hates The Jinx. He isn't your friend.


----------



## adamcanavan (Jun 5, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> C'mon Fellas
> 
> @PityTheFool
> @2manyusernames
> ...


With a fair referee Povetkin would've won his fight with Klitschko


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Lester hates The Jinx. He isn't your friend.


Lester was dead to me the day he described Myung Woo Yuh as bland.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> I wanted to make a joke about Whitaker but I couldn't.
> 
> My arms uncontrollably bolo punched me in my own face.
> 
> ...


I've concluded that you're actually one of the biggest Pernell Whitaker fans of all-time. You just keep it close to the vest because of what - you believe - it would do to your reputation if you were found out. It's 2016 man, you're allowed to love who you want to love.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

Sort of like Bowe, Pavlik had that small "window" (06-07-08ish) where he was a absolutely BAD ASS fighter. One of the deadliest and patient finishers of a hurt man as you could find too.

Fuck it :conf


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Why would Lester be reluctant to show his love for Pea? Being a Whitaker fanboy is one of the main criterion for being a boxing hipster. Rule 101 for all Boxing hipsters, like Lester, is that they must absolutely know more about the sport than the casuals and misinformed media. That's why Dooran and Pea are on every hipster's list. Dooran is misrepresented as a "mugger" by casuals, Pea is barely remembered at all. Nobody gives a shit about Pea. So it makes them feel smarter, more intelligent, to acknowledge these guys as not only being great fighters, but in the case of Dooran, virtually the best at every single aspect of the sport. Including defensive skills and composite punching.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm ramping up the controversy big style. Come at me.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Why would Lester be reluctant to show his love for Pea? Being a Whitaker fanboy is one of the main criterion for being a boxing hipster. Rule 101 for all Boxing hipsters, like Lester, is that they must absolutely know more about the sport than the casuals and misinformed media. That's why Dooran and Pea are on every hipster's list. Dooran is misrepresented as a "mugger" by casuals, Pea is barely remembered at all. Nobody gives a shit about Pea. So it makes them feel smarter, more intelligent, to acknowledge these guys as not only being great fighters, but in the case of Dooran, virtually the best at every single aspect of the sport. Including defensive skills and composite punching.


The same reason he won't admit @PityTheFool err I mean Axl Rose's vision for the direction of the band on Use Your Illusion was artistically and creatively brilliant, absolutely epic in sheer scope. Timeless Power Ballads for the fucking win, mate. Fuck yeah.

And Robearto(e) DOO-RAN (!!!) was badass laziness exemplified.

_In the hours of the early morning five years ago, while training for a fight in New York, Roberto Duran put on his sweat suit, joined his perpetual shadow, Trainer Freddie Brown, and started out of the Hotel Mayflower to do his roadwork in Central Park. But it was raining when they hit the street. Not wanting to expose his fighter to the chill of the elements, certainly not on the eve of a fight, Brown waved Duran back inside.

"If it stops raining," Freddie said, "I'll call you."

Duran returned to his room, Brown to his. Half an hour later Brown peeked out the window and saw that the rain had stopped. He went to Duran's room.

*"No rain," said Freddie. "We go."

Duran waved the trainer away. "No," the fighter said. Duran was overweight, as usual, and needed the work to trim down to 135 pounds, the ceiling for the lightweight division. Over the last few years-ever since Duran had pounded Ken Buchanan loose from his lightweight title in 1972-Brown had served not only as Duran's chief cut man, counselor and chaperon, but also as his conscience, a stern reminder that Roberto must work to win.

"Come on," said Freddie, "ya gotta go, ya gotta run."

Duran was standing at the door of the room, facing it, when he exploded in a rage. He suddenly threw his awesome straight right hand into the door. The thwack resounded like a thunderclap. On the adjacent wall a framed picture fell to the floor, its pane of glass shattering. Saying nothing, Brown left the room and headed for the lobby. Duran soon joined him and set out on his run.*_


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> The same reason he won't admit @PityTheFool err I mean Axl Rose's vision for the direction of the band on Use Your Illusion was artistically and creatively brilliant, absolutely epic in sheer scope. Timeless Power Ballads for the fucking win, mate. Fuck yeah.
> 
> And Robearto(e) DOO-RAN (!!!) was badass laziness exemplified.
> 
> ...


Another sensationalised story of the great Dooran.

He actually need a poo and that's why he couldn't go running. No more, no less. No doors were punched.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I've concluded that you're actually one of the biggest Pernell Whitaker fans of all-time.


Not really.

But I never cheer for duckers or quitters.

And Whitaker was neither.

In other words, he has my











Hands of Iron said:


> You just keep it close to the vest because of what - you believe - it would do to your reputation if you were found out.


Where I come from - feelings is a sign of weakness.

So, yeah, no "She's got eyes of the bluest skies as if they thought of rain" lounge threads from me.

Unless it's a Van Damme movie.

Then it's ok to be emotional.



Hands of Iron said:


> It's 2016 man, you're allowed to love who you want to love.


That's so lgbt of you.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

pipe wrenched said:


> Sort of like Bowe, Pavlik had that small "window" (06-07-08ish) where he was a absolutely BAD ASS fighter. One of the deadliest and patient finishers of a hurt man as you could find too.
> 
> Fuck it :conf


You are close @pipe wrenched, but in order to really get us you need to rattle off the best names you think an '07 Pavlik would have defeated at 160lbs. Don't be shy. Careful about naming Toney or McCallum though.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Unless it's a Van Damme movie.
> 
> Then it's ok to be emotional..







Chad fucked him up.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Another sensationalised story of the great Dooran.
> 
> He actually need a poo and that's why he couldn't go running. No more, no less. No doors were punched.


*"Sometimes getting Duran into the gym can be a very difficult thing," says Eleta, who is the champion's multimillionaire patron as well as his manager. "His trouble is that he has been champion for 5 years. He knows everyone in Panama, and they will give him anything he wants. With all that, getting him back to work is a chore. But this time I played a little trick. I told him that he had a tune-up fight in Panama before DeJesus. He trained hard at home for a month. Then I told him the tune-up fight had been called off, and I sent him to Los Angeles to train. Of course, there was no such tune-up. But he had worked very hard for four extra weeks and now is in the best shape of his career. He laughed when I told him of my trick."

When Duran works, everybody works. In one sparring session he broke the nose of Mike Youngblood, a 160-pounder out of Philadelphia with a 14-0 record. Duran's handlers immediately were off in search of new fodder. They came back with a kid named Jorge Morales.

"Unfortunately, we overlooked the fact that Morales was a Puerto Rican like DeJesus," says Luis Henriquez, a Duran adviser. "It wasn't a smart move."

During a sparring session Morales began to taunt Duran with suggestions of what DeJesus was going to do to him. "He kick your ass," Morales said. Duran was not amused. And then, when Morales insulted Panama, Duran began ripping off his gloves so that he could have a go at Morales with bare knuckles.

Wisely, Morales fled the ring. His father was less fortunate. Leaping into the ring, the senior Morales went after Duran, who dispatched him with a right hand to the head. Suddenly the ring was full of people, few of them friendly, and Duran, once more the violent child of mean streets, began whacking away at everyone within range.

"It was unnerving," says Tony Rivera, one of Duran's assistant trainers. "We got Duran in the corner, but he broke loose and started all over again. He just ran around the ring looking for people to hit."*



Lester1583 said:


> Not really.
> 
> But I never cheer for duckers or quitters.
> 
> ...


:lol:

Flawless Response. Possibly also the first time you've ever quoted a full post of mine, and with what was actually said in it.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Duran is the worst of the fab 4.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> *"Sometimes getting Duran into the gym can be a very difficult thing," says Eleta, who is the champion's multimillionaire patron as well as his manager. "His trouble is that he has been champion for 5 years. He knows everyone in Panama, and they will give him anything he wants. With all that, getting him back to work is a chore. But this time I played a little trick. I told him that he had a tune-up fight in Panama before DeJesus. He trained hard at home for a month. Then I told him the tune-up fight had been called off, and I sent him to Los Angeles to train. Of course, there was no such tune-up. But he had worked very hard for four extra weeks and now is in the best shape of his career. He laughed when I told him of my trick."
> 
> When Duran works, everybody works. In one sparring session he broke the nose of Mike Youngblood, a 160-pounder out of Philadelphia with a 14-0 record. Duran's handlers immediately were off in search of new fodder. They came back with a kid named Jorge Morales.
> 
> ...


Dooran probably got sparked in the melee.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Lester was dead to me the day he described Myung Woo Yuh as bland.


See what I mean with this, this is one little bastard ive rarely seen either.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> - Well lawdy, lawdy, lawdy miss clawdy!


Thats not Roy Jones...this is Roy Jones


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Personally, I don't much care for Pea. And I often cringe when I read threads that are trying to rank him in the top 10 P4P all time or build up his win column as being spectacular when it really wasn't for a guy of his ability.


His 'official' win column or his real one? The latter is actually quite phenomenal. In all seriousness, I believe had the DLH fight 114-112 in his favor with KD and Horseshite deduction. Top 10 is a bit of stretch however, I'll admit that. Not for Sugar Ray Leonard though. He's that, and pretty easily in my estimation. Fuck ESB Classic.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> His 'official' win column or his real one? The latter is actually quite phenomenal. In all seriousness, I believe had the DLH fight 114-112 in his favor with KD and Horseshite deduction. Top 10 is a bit of stretch however, I'll admit that. Not for Sugar Ray Leonard though. He's that, and pretty easily in my estimation. Fuck ESB Classic.


Julio Cesar Chavez (87-0) [#1 P4P]
Oscar De La Hoya (23-0) [#2 P4P]
Azumah Nelson (32-1) [#6 P4P]
Buddy McGirt x2 (59-2) [#4 P4P]
Julio Cesar Vasquez (53-1) [154 Beast]

Pretty amazing win column in this day and age.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> See what I mean with this, this is one little bastard ive rarely seen either.


Yuh was a light-hitting 108lbs Julio Cesar Chavez-lite. Dug to the body, threw in combination, virtually impossible to hurt and could do 15 rounders twice over. Possibly one of the best conditioned fighters in the world during his peak, having the reputation as being a gym rat and routinely throwing close to 100 punches per round. He made 17 consecutive defenses of his WBA World Light Flyweight championship. The level of opposition wasn't great though and unfortunately the world missed out on a big unification between Yuh and his fellow countryman Jung Koo Chang, who is widely considered to have been the best ever at Light Flyweight. It would have been epic.

Cue Lester's anti-Yuh propaganda.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> His 'official' win column or his real one? The latter is actually quite phenomenal. In all seriousness, I believe had the DLH fight 114-112 in his favor with KD and Horseshite deduction. Top 10 is a bit of stretch however, I'll admit that. Not for Sugar Ray Leonard though. He's that, and pretty easily in my estimation. Fuck ESB Classic.


That wasn't a KD and you know it.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I haven't actually seen DLH-Pea.


----------



## One to watch (Jun 5, 2013)

Mike tyson is overrated H2H.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I haven't actually seen DLH-Pea.


Typical DLH fight, he could have done better but he didn't,


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> That wasn't a KD and you know it.


Right glove touched canvas. The point deduction for the accidental butt is stupid, dude.



Pedderrs said:


> I haven't actually seen DLH-Pea.


Not a great fight by any means. Whitaker threw more, landed more, was more accurate and made ODLH look like a damn fool. Oskee landed harder punches, single shots. Pea was also clearly past it as evidenced by his inability to mount a fraction of the offense he was capable of five years earlier. I suppose it is a testament to his greatness in some ways though. He was the fighter here that people assume he was for the entirety of his career.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Right glove touched canvas. The point deduction for the accidental butt is stupid, dude.
> 
> Not a great fight by any means. Whitaker threw more, landed more, was more accurate and made ODLH look like a damn fool. Oskee landed harder punches, single shots. Pea was also clearly past it as evidenced by his inability to mount a fraction of the offense he was capable of five years earlier. I suppose it is a testament to his greatness in some ways though. He was the fighter here that people assume he was for the entirety of his career.


Right hand on being dragged down. If you want to erase the rules then both were stupid


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

As a general rule, I tend to switch off whenever you talk about Whitaker @Hands of Iron. Too much nuthuggery.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I haven't actually seen DLH-Pea.


All you need to know is 2 of Pea's flick jabs were countered by one oscar single power shot. So in reality about 50000 whitaker flicks from delahoya. Pea couldnt even see out of his eye by the end.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> As a general rule, I tend to switch off whenever you talk about Whitaker @Hands of Iron. Too much nuthuggery.


Another new rule that should be abided.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> As a general rule, I tend to switch off whenever you talk about Whitaker @Hands of Iron. Too much nuthuggery.


Naw mate. Top 50 Resume up against the Newspaper Decision guys, Top 5 in terms of ability on film rounds out to around a Top 20-25 ATG spot overall. Plenty objective. Classic had people saying SRL "barely" ahead of him. Nah.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> As a general rule, I tend to switch off whenever you talk about Whitaker @Hands of Iron. Too much nuthuggery.





turbotime said:


> Another new rule that should be abided.


****.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

One to watch said:


> Mike tyson is overrated H2H.


So who beats him h2h? I can understand thinking he's overrated in a legacy sense given how his career panned out, but few heavyweights are going to beat prime 87-89 tyson. dont tell me either klitschko or tyson fury beats Mike Tyson.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Top 500 in terms of ability but with arguably the greatest singular win in boxing history. Top 10 P4P all time.

Somebody please tell me that's Tommy G in his avatar meeting his hero Jimmy Young. For fuck's sake, please!!


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> You are close @pipe wrenched, but in order to really get us you need to rattle off the best names you think an '07 Pavlik would have defeated at 160lbs. Don't be shy. Careful about naming Toney or McCallum though.


I know I might be missing something mate but why would one be careful about naming McCallum in their top 10?
Top 5 easy for me.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I know I might be missing something mate but why would one be careful about naming McCallum in their top 10?
> Top 5 easy for me.


Sumbu taught him everything he knew.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Top 500 in terms of ability but with arguably the greatest singular win in boxing history. Top 10 P4P all time.
> 
> Somebody please tell me that's Tommy G in his avatar meeting his hero Jimmy Young. For fuck's sake, please!!


That's Foxy Brown maths tho. And that IS Tommy.


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

tommygun711 said:


> So who beats him h2h? I can understand thinking he's overrated in a legacy sense given how his career panned out, but few heavyweights are going to beat prime 87-89 tyson. dont tell me either klitschko or tyson fury beats Mike Tyson.


I think Holyfield always had the stuff to take on Tyson. The chin is there, the mindset is there, the physical power etc.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> That's Foxy Brown maths tho. And that IS Tommy.


:lol: That's glorious. Jimmy must have thought it was a joke.

Tommy G's mother: "Who would you like to meet, Tommy? If you could meet any fighter in the world, who would it be?"
Tommy G's dad: "Ali? Tyson? Mayweather? Who do you want to meet son, we'll do everything we can to make it happen..."
Tommy G: "Jimmy! Jimmy Young!"


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

knowimuch said:


> I think Holyfield always had the stuff to take on Tyson. The chin is there, the mindset is there, the physical power etc.


Don't think he manages to outmuscle him to the same extent though, Holy was about 15 lbs lighter in the early 90s. Tyson, while already falling off skill-wise and particularly defensively was a significantly better incarnation in '91 than post-prison. I just see Bert Cooper managing to knock the daylights out of him and him grabbing for the ropes quite early on and think "Hmm..." -- just gives a white boy pause. Evandah was the shit though and I'm long past the days of riding Michael Gerard.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Don't think he manages to outmuscle him to the same extent though, Holy was about 15 lbs lighter in the early 90s. Tyson, while already falling off skill-wise and particularly defensively was a significantly better incarnation in '91 than post-prison. I just see Bert Cooper managing to knock the daylights out of him and him grabbing for the ropes quite early on and think "Hmm..." -- just gives a white boy pause. Evandah was the shit though and I'm long past the days of riding Michael Gerard.


By the same token, a horribly regressed and one-dimensional Donovan Ruddock was able to give '91 Tyson a tough night's work just by continually telegraphing a left hook. Holyfield was superior to Ruddock in just about every area other than single punch power -- offensive variety, punching technique, durability, conditioning etc. Tyson was so lethargic at this point in his career that I think Holyfield's pace would cause him real problems. I think it's conceivable that The Real Deal could have done a similar job in '91 that he had managed to do in '97.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Sumbu taught him everything he knew.


Damn, at least give the man a chance to shake the rust off before dropping these sort of bombs. See, already went and logged off. Fuck, Addie. 



Pedderrs said:


> By the same token, a horribly regressed and one-dimensional Donovan Ruddock was able to give '91 Tyson a tough night's work just by continually telegraphing a left hook. Holyfield was superior to Ruddock in just about every area other than single punch power -- offensive variety, punching technique, durability, conditioning etc. Tyson was so lethargic at this point in his career that I think Holyfield's pace would cause him real problems. I think it's conceivable that The Real Deal could have done a similar job in '91 that he had managed to do in '97.


So true, but thus far we're taking Physical Prime Holy and Roid Prime Holy into account but not Peak Mike, which we know '91 wasn't. The issues of what Holy brings to the table are still there no matter which, and Bonecrusher could've KOed him at any time he pleased. At literally any point in that fight.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Damn, at least give the man a chance to shake the rust off before dropping these sort of bombs. See, already went and logged off. Fuck, Addie.
> 
> So true, but thus far we're taking Physical Prime Holy and Roid Prime Holy into account but not Peak Mike, which we know '91 wasn't. The issues of what Holy brings to the table are still there no matter which, *and Bonecrusher could've KOed him at any time he pleased. At literally any point in that fight*.


:kov


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> :kov


Shockingly bad. Even worse than claiming Sumbu a vastly superior defensive operator than Floyd Mayweather for schooling a cement footer with massive stylistic disadvantages ... Who's beyond reproach?


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Shockingly bad. Even worse than claiming Sumbu a vastly superior defensive operator than Floyd Mayweather for schooling a cement footer with massive stylistic disadvantages ... Who's beyond reproach?


I know buddy. The old timers tend to go full retard whenever Leonard, Tyson or Ali are mentioned. It's weird.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> I know buddy. The old timers tend to go full retard whenever Leonard, Tyson or Ali are mentioned. It's weird.


Lester is the only old timer that can keep it in his pants.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

There are no "vastly superior defensive operators" to Floyd. I think the sooner people realise this the better it will be for everyone. If he had fought in black and white then he'd be the pride of the classic.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Cotto - Canelo was a draw. Canelo lost to Lara and Trout.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

@Vysotsky I've been continuing my Tszyu education buddy, and I think there's a strong argument to suggest that he actually regressed as a fighter after the Phillips stoppage. The consensus seems to be that he became more measured and therefore more intelligent and less vulnerable, but I just see a guy not throwing as many combinations, not displaying the same level of hand speed and a less elusive fighter to the one that had first won the title from Rodriguez. I'm not going to lie to you, I'm a little disappointed. He could have been much more.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Damn, at least give the man a chance to shake the rust off before dropping these sort of bombs. See, already went and logged off. Fuck, Addie.
> 
> So true, but thus far we're taking Physical Prime Holy and Roid Prime Holy into account but not Peak Mike, which we know '91 wasn't. The issues of what Holy brings to the table are still there no matter which, and Bonecrusher could've KOed him at any time he pleased. At literally any point in that fight.


No skin off my nose mate.I don't need our ex 1D member's approval regarding my justified rating of the man they all feared.

Fucking Dubs! Curry goes off and I have under 222.5...they hit 7 treys from 7 in rapid fashion.

Fuck Sumbu! (And I actually rate the guy highly but hipster boy is looking to trouble)


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> No skin off my nose mate.I don't need our ex 1D member's approval regarding my justified rating of the man they all feared.
> 
> Fucking Dubs! Curry goes off and I have under 222.5...they hit 7 treys from 7 in rapid fashion.
> 
> Fuck Sumbu! (And I actually rate the guy highly but hipster boy is looking to trouble)


Mike took the rematch for me but of course it means dick because of Nunn and stuff.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> No skin off my nose mate.I don't need our ex 1D member's approval regarding my justified rating of the man they all feared.


Screen capture from their first fight. @PityTheFool


----------



## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> @Vysotsky I've been continuing my Tszyu education buddy, and I think there's a strong argument to suggest that he actually regressed as a fighter after the Phillips stoppage. The consensus seems to be that he became more measured and therefore more intelligent and less vulnerable, but I just see a guy not throwing as many combinations, not displaying the same level of hand speed and a less elusive fighter to the one that had first won the title from Rodriguez. I'm not going to lie to you, I'm a little disappointed. He could have been much more.


I agree he regressed. He tried to fight more intelligently and start utilizing much of the tools he had abandoned but didn't have the same physical ability. His accuracy and timing were still exceptional but he was basically a sniper around the turn of the millenium,


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> All you need to know is 2 of Pea's flick jabs were countered by one oscar single power shot. So in reality about 50000 whitaker flicks from delahoya. Pea couldnt even see out of his eye by the end.


It's not like am fucken calling it a robbery or something ridiculous like that. Thought Pea edged it, just. So I rate it accordingly.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Screen capture from their first fight. @PityTheFool


Some say the same about a fight in Montreal but N'Awleans put that to bed.

Sumbu is simply a blip who put on a wonderful performance taking advantage of a notoriously slow starter.
It's like a poor man's Junior Jones.
Who cares?


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Mike took the rematch for me but of course it means dick because of Nunn and stuff.


Edit


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Sumbu entered a whole new dark phase when he was fed to the Ugandan Beast from the shadows.
I'm probably going to have Flea catch me out because I haven't been to boxrec to check bit wasn't it the trip to the dark side that led to his upward projectory?
Going to the dark side and returning seems to bring out great performances the next fight if you escape to take part in it.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's not like am fucken calling it a robbery or something ridiculous like that. *Thought Pea edged it,* just. So I rate it accordingly.


Of course you did


----------



## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

H2H criteria should be more respected as a way to rate fighters.

Tyson is underrated by the most hardcore fans.

Whitaker would beat Duran.

Duran would beat Robinson.

Robinson would beat Monzon at MW.

Floyd Mayweather would be a close fight to anyone (to say the least) not named Tommy Hearns (superfeather, lightweight and welterweight).


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Vic said:


> H2H criteria should be more respected as a way to rate fighters.
> 
> Tyson is underrated by the most hardcore fans.
> 
> ...


I think Floyd would beat Hearns at 130
I think you by Tyson, it could mean Mike, and Fury too


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Edit


LOL @ McCallum's unbelievably underrated record: "skilled technicians" and "world class operators" much? Beat Toney pretty damn clearly in the second fight and avenged Sumbu. That's already Like Whoa. Ate flush Jackson bombs and blew him out of the water, knocked Curry the fuck out, utterly took Watson apart, overcame more disadvantages with Bomber... Should we continue?


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

You can't use the name 'McCallum' and the word 'underrated' in the same sentence any more. It's 2016, not 1996.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Mike Mc is in both hall of fames, and rightly so. Underrated he is not.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> You can't use the name 'McCallum' and the word 'underrated' in the same sentence any more. It's 2016, not 1996.


It's been three years since he's got a mention. He's underrated again.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> There are no "vastly superior defensive operators" to Floyd.


- Get off my lawn.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> IV injections


Cunto is gonna rock your world.

Kalambay at his most defensive and textbook + 154/late 147 Mayweather, but smoother, with more diverse counterpunching arsenal = El Maestro.

And unlike Butters' favorites, his greatness isn't based on virgin's wet dreams.

- Filipino Toney!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Addie has an avatar fetish.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Trying to figure out how you can get a fully square one without there being a degrade in quality. Leave me be, brah!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Trying to figure out how you can get a fully square one without there being a degrade in quality. Leave me be, brah!


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Tyson Fury would be very tricky for pretty much anyone for the first few rounds


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> LOL @ McCallum's unbelievably underrated record: "skilled technicians" and "world class operators" much? Beat Toney pretty damn clearly in the second fight and avenged Sumbu. That's already Like Whoa. Ate flush Jackson bombs and blew him out of the water, knocked Curry the fuck out, utterly took Watson apart, overcame more disadvantages with Bomber... Should we continue?


Think you've covered it mate.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> You can't use the name 'McCallum' and the word 'underrated' in the same sentence any more. It's 2016, not 1996.


He's still underrated mate.You'd be surprised at how many had and have never watched a fight when I first started preaching my gospel at the old church.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


>


Pea can fuck right off brah. But I have a few cool ones here, like.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> I think Holyfield always had the stuff to take on Tyson. The chin is there, the mindset is there, the physical power etc.


I agree. I always pick Prime 1991 Holyfield over 1988 Tyson.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> He's still underrated mate.You'd be surprised at how many had and have never watched a fight when I first started preaching my gospel at the old church.


He will forever be remembered as the guy who made Sumbu look like Sugar Ray Robinson.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> He will forever be remembered as the guy who made Sumbu look like Sugar Ray Robinson.


I know you have far better game than that.

Like saying MAB made Khan look like Lamont Peterson.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Think you've covered it mate.


Collins, McCrory, Braxton, Kalule...


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I know you have far better game than that.
> 
> Like saying MAB made Khan look like Lamont Peterson.


Hey, leave MAB out of this brah.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Pea can fuck right off brah. But I have a few cool ones here, like.


Look pretty awesome, but Pea's midsection is probably too soft for me to sport as an avatar. I have better abs than that. Sticking with JCC for a minute.


----------



## Karkas (Apr 25, 2016)

Underrating the importance of amateur boxing has led to the current slump of American boxing. I have a hard time understanding how it's even possible, given that so many of the best Americans have been accomplished amateurs like Leonard, Jones, ODLH, Mayweather, Ward etc.

Daniyar Yeleussinov would probably take most of the contenders in welterweight division to school should he turn pro.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Does anyone think Manny was on PED's on his ascension up the weight classes?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

jack dempsey and maricano aren't really top 10 HWs


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Gerald McClellan would have KO'd RJJ


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Gerald McClellan would have KO'd RJJ


My friend said Roy would easily beat anybody at 160 and I told him that McClellan would be incredibly tough for him. I had to tell him that Roy lost to the G Man in the amateurs too.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Harry Greb is the most overrated boxer of all time.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

tezel8764 said:


> Harry Greb is the most overrated boxer of all time.


The greatest shadow boxer ever though.


----------



## The Monk (Apr 9, 2016)

Carlos Ortiz would beat Pac, Chavez Mayweather, Oscar, Gans, Benny Leonard and a shit version of Duran.


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

tommygun711 said:


> jack dempsey and maricano aren't really top 10 HWs


This is not controversial for anyone under the age of 60


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> My friend said Roy would easily beat anybody at 160 and I told him that McClellan would be incredibly tough for him. I had to tell him that Roy lost to the G Man in the amateurs too.


that's kind of silly. He wouldn't beat Hagler easy either


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> that's kind of silly. He wouldn't beat Hagler easy either


That's what I told him also. Hopkins had most his success outworking Roy on the ropes. Hagler could use that same strategy like he did vs SRL. I don't think Hagler would have much success trying to box with Roy


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> That's what I told him also. Hopkins had most his success outworking Roy on the ropes. Hagler could use that same strategy like he did vs SRL. I don't think Hagler would have much success trying to box with Roy


He might have some success on the outside with that great jab of his but ultimately I think he would end up bulling in and taking it to RJJ on the inside.

Too bad Roy didn't fight guys like Benn, Nunn, McClellan, Eubank or Michalzewski. Then we wouldn't be speculating on some of these things


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> This is not controversial for anyone under the age of 60


on a legacy basis a lot of people got them both top 10.

Especially Rocky.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> He might have some success on the outside with that great jab of his but ultimately I think he would end up bulling in and taking it to RJJ on the inside.
> 
> Too bad Roy didn't fight guys like Benn, Nunn, McClellan, Eubank or Michalzewski. Then we wouldn't be speculating on some of these things


yeah Roy might have actually been a ppv star if he got those fights at the right time.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Too bad Roy didn't fight guys like Benn, Nunn, McClellan, Eubank or Michalzewski. Then we wouldn't be speculating on some of these things





bballchump11 said:


> yeah Roy might have actually been a ppv star if he got those fights at the right time.


It's a pretty extensive list of names that doesn't shine a particularly favorable light on Jones on the surface, though I don't think it's as bad as it seems. Benn most definitely would've got in with him but there was the shit promotional issue of RJJ not wanting anything to do with Don, who co-promoted him with Warren and wanted options on Roy if he won. I'd of told them to fuck off too. Eubank - sigh - simply didn't want it and was content as it was. G-Man would've been fantastic obviously but the window for it incredibly small, it isn't Roy's fault his career short-circuited in February '95 and he'd just beaten James Toney three months prior. Even that Michael Nunn would've been one of his better opponents at 160/168 and was a mando for a bit but was faded, damaged goods by the mid-90s and doesn't get me particularly excited. If it was the guy operating in his late 80s/early 90s form (but at 168) and this fight didn't come off, that would've sucked.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Wow. Now who is less attractive?


:lol:

You know I fucking troll you on Jones. I've never once made a serious attempt at a real detraction of the man. He's probably the best fighter I've ever seen on film and the worst MC I've ever heard. I think Pea has a legitimate argument for that though, bruv. Both the on film measurement as well as those FOTD credentials. The mark against him is that his dominance ceased after 1995. The record is there though.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> You know I fucking troll you on Jones. I've never once made a serious attempt at a real detraction of the man. He's probably the best fighter I've ever seen on film and the worst MC I've ever heard. I think Pea has a legitimate argument for that though, bruv. Both the on film measurement as well as those FOTD credentials. The mark against him is that his dominance ceased after 1995. The record is there though.


Can you believe people were leaving it up to To tito and oscar in 99?!?!


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Too bad Roy didn't fight guys like Benn, Nunn, McClellan, Eubank or Michalzewski. Then we wouldn't be speculating on some of these things


He whooped Mclellan.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Can you believe people were leaving it up to To tito and oscar in 99?!?!


Fight of the Millennium, breh.



Pales in comparison to Whitaker-Chavez in terms of significance, not too much more meaning involved than Whitaker-McGirt either for that matter. It's a bloody wonderful thing when P4P guys within the same division collide though.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Fight of the Millennium, breh.
> 
> 
> 
> Pales in comparison to Whitaker-Chavez in terms of significance, not too much more meaning involved than Whitaker-McGirt either for that matter. It's a bloody wonderful thing when P4P guys within the same division collide though.


In hindsight no, but I was shitting myself during fight week.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> In hindsight no, but I was shitting myself during fight week.


The memories of big 1990s fights are timeless to have in the bank. You probably won't ever get those sort of feelings over a boxing match ever again. Being a kid adds a whole other dimension to it. I wish I was interested in boxing history for as long as I've been watching it though. Fucking Fuck.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The memories of big 1990s fights are timeless to have in the bank. You probably won't ever get those sort of feelings over a boxing match ever again. Being a kid adds a whole other dimension to it. I wish I was interested in boxing history for as long as I've been watching it though. Fucking Fuck.


man, I would be quivering over the most meaningless fights :lol:

:verysad


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> man, I would be quivering over the most meaningless fights :lol:
> 
> :verysad


:rofl

I was nervous about Tyson-Bruno II. I was nine, give me a break. Legit *scared* over Holyfield II and obviously had good reason to be. I remember both DLH-JCC fights. :verysad It was actually a pretty shit decade now that I think about it in terms of emotions.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :rofl
> 
> I was nervous about Tyson-Bruno II. I was nine, give me a break. Legit *scared* over Holyfield II and obviously had good reason to be. I remember both DLH-JCC fights. :verysad It was actually a pretty shit decade now that I think about it in terms of emotions.


Oh stop it was a great decade.

When Shane signed on to fight Rivera for his WW debut I was SO scared :lol: jesuschrist.

Everyone tryna talk to me and I'm all


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Oh stop it was a great decade.
> 
> When Shane signed on to fight Rivera for his WW debut I was SO scared :lol: jesuschrist.


But why do my favorites had to lose?  'Cause they were fucking shot. Ugh.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> But why do my favorites had to lose?  'Cause they were fucking shot. Ugh.


Oh ya you have it so fucking hard.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Oh ya you have it so fucking hard.


Haaah. 

We were little prepubescent boys watching this shit. Lester was out in Vegas macking on hoes and dropping casual £100,000 bets on various fights.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Zopilote said:


> @Hands of Iron Our similar tastes in Boxers, Alice In Chains, and Wu-Tang is quite scary..are you my long lost brother or something?? :yep


Underrated Joint. You can't beat a Chavez reference.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Haaah.
> 
> We were little prepubescent boys watching this shit. Lester was out in Vegas macking on hoes and dropping casual £100,000 bets on various fights.


Fuckin Lester. And all of the other 30+ guys that got live the real good times. Imagine being around for the fab 4 :lol: we'd have clowned hagler so hard


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I was nervous about Tyson-Bruno II.


Bunch of old farts on here.

Mayweather-Alvarez was the first fight I've ever watched.
I was six.

Turned me into an instant fan of Canelo.

The kid almost beat the best fighter ever (MD!).

Been following boxing (mostly Canelo and heavyweights, tbh) since then.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Fuckin Lester. And all of the other 30+ guys that got live the real good times. Imagine being around for the fab 4 :lol: we'd have clowned hagler so hard


You can live through @PityTheFool memories, but you two have hated each other since the Broner/Burns incident. :verysad Heh, my auto-correct wanted to say "Broker".


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> He might have some success on the outside with that great jab of his but ultimately I think he would end up bulling in and taking it to RJJ on the inside.
> 
> Too bad Roy didn't fight guys like Benn, Nunn, McClellan, Eubank or Michalzewski. Then we wouldn't be speculating on some of these things


He has beat better opponents than those 5 in Toney and Hopkins. Anyway if you compare common opponents, it's also light and day:

Jones Malinga






Eubank Malinga (Malinga has a good case for being robbed)






Benn Malinga 1 (robbery)






Benn Malinga 2 (Malinga wins)


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Jones Gonzalez






Gonzalez Dariusz M






Jones Hall






Dariusz M Hall


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Jones Hill






Dariusz M Hill






Jones Griffin






Dariusz M Griffin






Thornton (who gave Eubank a competitive 12 rounder)


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Malinga


A 137-year old Sugarboy went on to beat Cal's Nightmare for the super middle title.

British boxing still hasn't recovered from this earth-shaking bitchslap.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> You can live through @PityTheFool memories, but you two have hated each other since the Broner/Burns incident. :verysad Heh, my auto-correct wanted to say "Broker".


I get concerned about how you bring up my previous disagreements with other posters that I had long forgotten on a regular basis.
It's a nasty little habit.Worse than smoking.:shitstir

But I know you know I never hated Turbo so I suppose I've learned something from that inflammatory post.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Gerald McClellan would have KO'd RJJ


He has a punchers chance but his overall skill level and lack of stamina and defence makes it an unlikely chance. This is him against Toney








bballchump11 said:


> My friend said Roy would easily beat anybody at 160 and I told him that McClellan would be incredibly tough for him. I had to tell him that Roy lost to the G Man in the amateurs too.


McCllelan would be a threat for a couple of rounds. The amateur fight was very close and McClellan was aching for weeks after according to Ice Man Scully. Jones progressed far more in the pros than McClellan who never developed a defense or inside game. Steward parted ways with McCllelan for good reason.

Bare in mind Benn outboxed McClellan for 9 rounds, Benn couldn't miss him and made McClellan miss and pay time and again. You can also see him gasping for breath in the Benn and Jackson fights and breathing through his mouth pretty early. He never put in the roadwork to develop his stamina. Anyway, skip past the first round and watch 2-10 of Benn-McClellan and you can see Benn completely outbox GMAN


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> A 137-year old Sugarboy went on to beat Cal's Nightmare for the super middle title.
> 
> British boxing still hasn't recovered from this earth-shaking bitchslap.


Robbed against the Italian before that. Read anything on Malinga-Rochiagiani/Holmes or even seen them?


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> A 137-year old Sugarboy went on to beat Cal's Nightmare for the super middle title.
> 
> British boxing still hasn't recovered from this earth-shaking bitchslap.


I invited PP in here, even linked it. Now there's A-Bombs going off left and right. :lol:



PityTheFool said:


> I get concerned about how you bring up my previous disagreements with other posters that I had long forgotten on a regular basis.
> It's a nasty little habit.Worse than smoking.:shitstir
> 
> But I know you know I never hated Turbo so I suppose I've learned something from that inflammatory post.


Inflammatory?! I'm trying to mend the fences once and for all! I'm all love, buddy.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Mike Mc is in both hall of fames, and rightly so. Underrated he is not.





Pedderrs said:


> You can't use the name 'McCallum' and the word 'underrated' in the same sentence any more. It's 2016, not 1996.


Until he's in everyone's top 10 MWs he's underrated. He'd have beat Hagler, Robinson, Monzon, Tiger, Burley and anyone from dark ages prior to that.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

I really believe in G-mans chin, but can a man with that little defence survive Roy?
The only man who lacked defence as much was Castro, but his chin may have been better than G-man. As it took an elite cruiserweight to stop a fat old Castro. And Jirov couldn't dent Castro. Besides Roy being green.

And I'm certain of the fact that Roy could generate more at 160 than Julian Jackson, and Roy could do it on the move.
Maybe a wild first round but once the counters start coming it's all downhill for Gerald.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> Arguello was a professional longer sure, but a professional fighting professional cab drivers.
> 
> A gold medalist knows all of his tools. The hours of sparring shane, JCC, robinson, etc etc and there is no way he is going into the pros blind.
> 
> How much young Oscar have you actually watched? (honest)


Bullshit.
You do know in the better eras that fighters took far more fights and not every bout was a PPV extravaganza?

Audley Harrison was a gold medalist.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> Until he's in everyone's top 10 MWs he's underrated. He'd have beat Hagler, Robinson, Monzon, Tiger, Burley and anyone from dark ages prior to that.


And he'd have put Hearns to sleep as well.
No point in putting Duran and SRL on that list because he was just too big,but in fantasy land,he has a shout of beating all four.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Arguello was still undeniably world class at 140lbs and therefore, in my estimation, a better fighter than McGirt. It's a better win than anything Taylor has. Pryor was also knocking out challengers to his WBA title left and right for 5 years. How long did Taylor hold on to his strap?
> 
> People try and play down Pryor's win over Arguello these days but I really don't see why. Arguello was bulldozing his way through the weights at this point and looked absolutely fabulous in sparking out Kevin Rooney in his introductory fight at 140lbs. Arguello didn't roll over against Pryor, he fought in what was probably the greatest fight of the decade, tooth and nail, for 14 rounds before being overcome by Pryor's pressure and power. Arguello was absolutely world class on the night otherwise he wouldn't have taken the shots he did and been anywhere near as competitive as he was. Pryor was just too much at that weight. Pryor may well have been too much for most Junior Welters on that night -- Tszyu, Chavez, Benitez etc. I honestly mean that.


Realistically,it was amazing that he was able to put on a good show against the guy who might have been the H2H best at 140.
I still think he was spent after the first fight,and I hated Pryor for years after that.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Realistically,it was amazing that he was able to put on a good show against the guy who might have been the H2H best at 140.
> I still think he was spent after the first fight,and I hated Pryor for years after that.


Lots of reasons to hate Pryor. Lesbianist, JCC rekts him. I gave out the (very general) reasons. Time to agree on something positive here where The Man is concerned.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

@PityTheFool At the gas station, guess what they got BLARING?!

:happy


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Lots of reasons to hate Pryor. Lesbianist, JCC rekts him. I gave out the (very general) reasons. Time to agree on something positive here where The Man is concerned.


I have to admit,once you batted the Leonard rumours out of the park I actually found him quite a fun fighter to watch.

And remember,I rate JCC.I just didn't take to him because I was a big fan of Rosario and that was sore but the only black mark is the Don King nonsense.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> @PityTheFool At the gas station, guess what they got BLARING?!
> 
> :happy


Doves?
Jungle?
Thunderstruck?


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Come on @Hands of Iron

How do you keep an idiot in suspense?

I'll tell you next week or refuse to answer a post.
Either works


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Doves?
> Jungle?
> Thunderstruck?





Lester1583 said:


> When I find out all the reasons
> Maybe I'll find another way
> Find another day
> With all the changing seasons of my life
> ...


Honestly better than anything Bowie or Prince ever wrote, in all due utmost respect. At one point, it hit like a fucking ton of bricks.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Honestly better than anything Bowie or Prince ever wrote, in all due utmost respect. At one point, it hit like a fucking ton of bricks.


You're 28 as well.Very relevant.

My top 4 Guns easy.Maybe higher.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

dyna said:


> I really believe in G-mans chin, but can a man with that little defence survive Roy?
> The only man who lacked defence as much was Castro, but his chin may have been better than G-man. As it took an elite cruiserweight to stop a fat old Castro. And Jirov couldn't dent Castro. Besides Roy being green.
> 
> And I'm certain of the fact that Roy could generate more at 160 than Julian Jackson, and Roy could do it on the move.
> Maybe a wild first round but once the counters start coming it's all downhill for Gerald.


JJ was a small MW, probably weighed 160 in the ring, Roy and GMAN were basically LHWs coming in around 175. Before Jackson faced GMAN he went 12 with Tate throwing the kitchen sink at him, if you don't want to watch the full fight the 5th and 6th are worth watching

Jackson v Tate






Jones Tate - the following year


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> You're 28 as well.Very relevant.
> 
> My top 4 Guns easy.Maybe higher.


It's an utterly fucking mesmerizing track, mate. No hyperbole. And ery time you think Axl has said his peace, he comes roaring back and fucking CRUSHES IT Again -- Vocally, Lyrically, Emotionally. It's a truly ATG song of the highest order personally, IMHO. Slash was cutting little pieces out of @Bogotazo beautiful beige soul on that one as well.



PityTheFool said:


> Sugar Ray Leonard is the Fucking GOAT.
> 
> Who else you know that's 60 going on 30?


Sheeeeit, Ray Robinson wouldn't of even fought Benitez, Hearns and Hagler, nevermind a monster like Kalule. Way too black. Suck on that harder than Coach, ESB Classic Cunts. As it happens, Doooran, Hearns and Hagler were all #1 P4P at the time, Benitez fuck knows but it couldn't of been out of the Top 3 and Ayub's a Top 10 ATG himself. Wrap your mouth around that, bish. We will never see anything like that again in our lifetime. Ever.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I have to admit,once you batted the Leonard rumours out of the park I actually found him quite a fun fighter to watch.
> 
> And remember,I rate JCC.I just didn't take to him because *I was a big fan of Rosario and that was sore* but the only black mark is the Don King nonsense.












You gotta allow yourself to appreciate, enjoy and take in the Greatness, man. Probably the ultimate In-Fighting/Body Punching clinic of the last 30 years.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Sheeeeit, Ray Robinson wouldn't of even fought Benitez, Hearns and Hagler, nevermind a monster like Kalule. Way too black. Suck on that harder than Coach, ESB Classic Cunts. As it happens, Doooran, Hearns and Hagler were all #1 P4P at the time, Benitez fuck knows but it couldn't of been out of the Top 3 and Ayub's a Top 10 ATG himself. Wrap your mouth around that, bish. We will never see anything like that again in our lifetime. Ever.


This, only short white plodders for Robinson.

People like to give so much credit for Ray's "defence" but he was just good at fighting shorter opposition.
Without his height and long arms, Robinson's defence would just not have been there.
His footwork was good I guess too, but really just supplemental to his height.

Hearns-Robinson would have been too funny, Ray gets decapitated by that jab.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

"but Robinson's offence was his defence"
Nobody says Foreman had an elite defence, neither should Robinson get credit for one.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> This, only short white plodders for Robinson.
> 
> People like to give so much credit for Ray's "defence" but he was just good at fighting shorter opposition.
> Without his height and long arms, Robinson's defence would just not have been there.
> ...


The funny thing is, it is *entirely possible* he really would not have fought those names with the extraordinary attributes, skills and ability they brought to the table. The styles Ray (Leonard) managed to conquer at the elite level is totally absurd and I don't think anyone comes close to his Top 5 wins. He should be a Top 10 ATG Lock, hands down. Kid Gavilan is the shit tho.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Imagine Robinson vs Duran

Literally lolling my ass off


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The funny thing is, it is *entirely possible* he really would not have fought those names with the extraordinary attributes, skills and ability they brought to the table. The styles Ray (Leonard) managed to conquer at the elite level is totally absurd and I don't think anyone comes close to his Top 5 wins. He should be a Top 10 ATG Lock, hands down. Kid Gavilan is the shit tho.


Ray really did it all.
His resume is enough evidence that you don't need 100 fights against whatever to have an immense resume.

Every style on his resume, all conquered.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

@Jay 
Enjoying the "like" option but this thread is a classic example of where a "love" option would be more appropriate.

Just musing.No complaints here.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's an utterly fucking mesmerizing track, mate. No hyperbole. And ery time you think Axl has said his peace, he comes roaring back and fucking CRUSHES IT Again -- Vocally, Lyrically, Emotionally. It's a truly ATG song of the highest order personally, IMHO. Slash was cutting little pieces out of @Bogotazo beautiful beige soul on that one as well.
> 
> Sheeeeit, Ray Robinson wouldn't of even fought Benitez, Hearns and Hagler, nevermind a monster like Kalule. Way too black. Suck on that harder than Coach, ESB Classic Cunts. As it happens, Doooran, Hearns and Hagler were all #1 P4P at the time, Benitez fuck knows but it couldn't of been out of the Top 3 and Ayub's a Top 10 ATG himself. Wrap your mouth around that, bish. We will never see anything like that again in our lifetime. Ever.


That post reminds me of my one chance at speaking to him where I said "You look like you could make 160 easy.Golovkin?"

He just smiled,and I think that had a lot to do with processing my accent but there really isn't a style he didn't deal with so move that down to the red hot 155 division and I think he adds another weight class to his resume.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> That post reminds me of my one chance at speaking to him where I said "You look like you could make 160 easy.Golovkin?"
> 
> He just smiled,and I think that had a lot to do with processing my accent but there really isn't a style he didn't deal with so move that down to the red hot 155 division and I think he adds another weight class to his resume.


Not that it means anything any more, but he also took the Lineal/RING Champions out at 147, 154, 160. Not mere alphabet soup. I don't like that post-Hagler shit one bit brother, to me Ray's legacy and career was capped with the Hagler win. I don't think people realize that Leonard actually took out a near dozen world-rated fighters/b-contender types from 78-82 aside from his huge wins in between there. His record is not "thin" in any sense whatsoever.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Not that it means anything any more, but he also took the Lineal/RING Champions out at 147, 154, 160. Not mere alphabet soup. I don't like that post-Hagler shit one bit brother, to me Ray's legacy and career was capped with the Hagler win. I don't think people realize that Leonard actually took out a near dozen world-rated fighters/b-contender types from 78-82 aside from his huge wins in between there. His record is not "thin" in any sense whatsoever.


You know it finished in February 1987 for me too mate.Only reason the rest seemed good at the time was because I was a pup but had a better understanding of the game and enjoyed the chance to see him.
But apart from Lalonde offering a homoerotic rainbow with no racial barriers,it's all a cup of coffee after the main courses post Hagler.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

dyna said:


> This, only short white plodders for Robinson.
> 
> People like to give so much credit for Ray's "defence" but he was just good at fighting shorter opposition.
> Without his height and long arms, Robinson's defence would just not have been there.
> ...


To a degree, except for Gavilan, Turpin, Tommy Bell and a few others. Ike Williams wife wouldn't let him fight Robinson. Robinson avoided the likes of Burley though.



dyna said:


> Imagine Robinson vs Duran
> 
> Literally lolling my ass off


This is comeback Robinson though in his mid 30s, forced to box to pay the taxman. He has flaws, maybe best shown up against Turpin although it's a pity we have no film of Gavilan or Bell. The Bell bout was boo'ed according to our late great fight reporter John Garfield, who was at the fight.


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Honestly *better than anything Bowie or Prince ever wrote*, in all due utmost respect. At one point, it hit like a fucking ton of bricks.


I'm going to totally derail a thread here. Better than Starman, Life on Mars, Sufragette City? I think you're a bit out here, H.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Trail said:


> I'm going to totally derail a thread here. Better than Starman, Life on Mars, Sufragette City? I think you're a bit out here, H.


Controversy Sells.


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> yeah Roy might have actually been a ppv star if he got those fights at the right time.


Sorry about a dumb-ish question, but did Roy EVER fight for one of the big promoters? At all....or only self promotions?

And, then, towards the end esp., Roy was KNOWN for being literally at least 3 HOURS late to show up to press conferences and all that stuff.....can't have helped. Nah meee?


----------



## pipe wrenched (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't remember him ever fighting for say Top Rank etc, and prolly why his shows was often in Po-Dunk Mississippi n shit


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> To a degree, except for Gavilan, Turpin, Tommy Bell and a few others. Ike Williams wife wouldn't let him fight Robinson. Robinson avoided the likes of Burley though.
> 
> This is comeback Robinson though in his mid 30s, forced to box to pay the taxman. He has flaws, maybe best shown up against Turpin although it's a pity we have no film of Gavilan or Bell. The Bell bout was boo'ed according to our late great fight reporter John Garfield, who was at the fight.


The fact that he fought Gavilan says quite a bit for him, the guy was beastly skilled. It also can't be denied that as WW/MW Champion, Robbo actually did take on the No. 1 challenger (or close to it) pretty often, no matter who it was or what their skin colour. Gavilan and Turpin are two obvious examples of that. Bell was the No. 2 welter - behind Robinson - at the time they fought for the vacant 147 crown, something Robinson deserved a crack it a good five years earlier.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Until he's in everyone's top 10 MWs he's underrated. He'd have beat Hagler, Robinson, Monzon, Tiger, Burley and anyone from dark ages prior to that.


You've proven my point. Thank you, PP.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> He has beat better opponents than those 5 in Toney and Hopkins. Anyway if you compare common opponents, it's also light and day:


That's not the point. The point is that the fights didn't happen. We don't have this problem with certain ATGs. We have this problem with Roy. It's a question of "what if he fought this guy" Also I'd argue that prime versions of benn, nunn, and mcclellan are better than the green version of Bhop that Jones beat.



Powerpuncher said:


> He has a punchers chance but his overall skill level and lack of stamina and defence makes it an unlikely chance.


bla bla bla. The fight didn't happen. There's a huge chance McClellan cracks that chin.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

What has happened to this glorious thread in the last 24 hours? David Bowie's worst track is better than November Rain and Sweet Child O Mine combined. Absolute lunacy to insult a truly talented, multi-faceted artist like Bowie by subjecting him to a Guns 'N Roses comparison. I'm dumber for having read that hipster bullshit. The thread is dedicated to boxing-related controversial views, not non-boxing related absurdity.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

pipe wrenched said:


> Sorry about a dumb-ish question, but did Roy EVER fight for one of the big promoters? At all....or only self promotions?
> 
> And, then, towards the end esp., Roy was KNOWN for being literally at least 3 HOURS late to show up to press conferences and all that stuff.....can't have helped. Nah meee?


I don't think he ever did. When he first went pro, there was a bid from different promoters to sign him, but he ultimately choose to promote himself. I think that's how it went. They covered it on Beyond the Glory


----------



## Wiirdo (May 31, 2012)

RJJ smashes almost everyone H2H. Somehow having no skills but going from MW to HW and back down to LHW winning titles >>>>>>>>>>


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> That's not the point. The point is that the fights didn't happen. We don't have this problem with certain ATGs. We have this problem with Roy. It's a question of "what if he fought this guy" Also I'd argue that prime versions of benn, nunn, and mcclellan are better than the green version of Bhop that Jones beat.


It is the point that he was beating men who beat these so called 'ATG's. You're overrating Benn and McClellan if you think they're in Hopkins league. I've posted footage of Malinga schooling Benn twice and you think he's better than a 28yo Hopkins?

Nunn was past it by the time RJJ was in the same division as him.



tommygun711 said:


> bla bla bla. The fight didn't happen. There's a huge chance McClellan cracks that chin.


No there isn't, he couldn't take out Benn who Watson and Eubank ko'd. He hasn't KO'd any top opponent bar Jackson who was chinny and 2 weight classes below him on the night. What happened to his power when he lost decisions to 2 random gatekeepers? McClellan has probably become the most overrated boxer in the last 30 years.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> It is the point that he was beating men who beat these so called 'ATG's. You're overrating Benn and McClellan if you think they're in Hopkins league. I've posted footage of Malinga schooling Benn twice and you think he's better than a 28yo Hopkins?.


I think at the very least Benn and McClellan have intangibles and can take advantage of things that a green Bhop couldn't take advantage of. You disagree, lets move on.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> I think at the very least Benn and McClellan have intangibles and can take advantage of things that a green Bhop couldn't take advantage of. You disagree, lets move on.


They had more power so had the 'punchers chance' but were worse in every other way. A 'green' BHOP had a far better skillset and could throw around 1200 punches a fight for example, phenomenal stamina. Watch Hopkins Mercado fight, which is at high altitude to see what a beast he was around this time.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Robbed against the Italian before that. Read anything on Malinga-Rochiagiani/Holmes or even seen them?


Don't have time to answer in detail right now, PP.

Will come back to the Malinga question later.

In the meantime here's something to keep you in this thread.

An early amateur Tarver fight with Jones as a guest commentator and Whitaker in the audience:


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

I simply don't subscribe to this notion that RJJ was unbeatable. I mean, how could I? There is footage of him being stopped in merciless fashion on numerous occasions. I'm not yet ready to discredit Tarver's victory over him by suggesting he was shot either, because I don't think that was the case. Past prime undeniably, but not a shot item. RJJ would have had his hands full with some of the better Light Heavyweights. We ain't talking Clinton Woods or Eric Harding here gentleman. Quite honestly, a Dwight Muhammad Qawi would have blitzed through Roy's competition at 175lbs every bit as easily and probably having to fight less rounds in the process. Cold hard facts.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> I simply don't subscribe to this notion that RJJ was unbeatable. I mean, how could I? There is footage of him being stopped in merciless fashion on numerous occasions. I'm not yet ready to discredit Tarver's victory over him by suggesting he was shot either, because I don't think that was the case. Past prime undeniably, but not a shot item. RJJ would have had his hands full with some of the better Light Heavyweights. We ain't talking Clinton Woods or Eric Harding here gentleman. Quite honestly, a Dwight Muhammad Qawi would have blitzed through Roy's competition at 175lbs every bit as easily and probably having to fight less rounds in the process. Cold hard facts.


Look at the first Tarver fight and see how Roy was gassed by the end.
Had never happened before, not with that low punch output.

He threw as much punches against Ruiz as against Tarver, yet he was 100% fresh post-Ruiz yet somehow gassed against Tarver.

That was the very first sign that Roy had aged over night.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

dyna said:


> Look at the first Tarver fight and see how Roy was gassed by the end.
> Had never happened before, not with that low punch output.
> 
> He threw as much punches against Ruiz as against Tarver, yet he was 100% fresh post-Ruiz yet somehow gassed against Tarver.
> ...


Perhaps he hadn't trained accordingly or the fluctuations in weight affected him, but Jones was not a shot fighter physically. I say this because he was still competitive In the first fight and against championship level opposition. It's not as though he was mangled and embarrassed second time around, he got caught with a big shot. It happens. Tarver was a genuine puncher at that weight.

Barrera was knackered after 10 rounds against JMM. The pace hadn't been too taxing and he had always had a reputation for finishing fights as strongly as he started them (McKinney, Morales, Hamed). So this was an indication to me that he was past his best physically. He wasn't shot though otherwise he wouldn't have been competitive with a fighter of JMM's calibre.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Larry Holmes didn't beat Spinks in the second bout 

Riddick Bowe would destroy both klitschko brothers 

Mayweather is a greater fighter than Bhop


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Look at the first Tarver fight and see how Roy was gassed by the end.
> Had never happened before, not with that low punch output.
> 
> He threw as much punches against Ruiz as against Tarver, yet he was 100% fresh post-Ruiz yet somehow gassed against Tarver.
> ...


Going from 203 back down to 175 is a great deal well out of line. It didn't just zap his stamina - and anyone who has ever cut cringes at what Roy did there - it fucked his reflexes for good.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Going from 203 back down to 175 is a great deal well out of line. It didn't just zap his stamina - and anyone who has ever cut cringes at what Roy did there - it fucked his reflexes for good.


Who needs reflexes when you have Woods and Harding in front of you, brah? Please don't make excuses for Roy. Spare a thought for Dixon. It's a bad enough that he went life and death with a 70 year old. He doesn't need you lot trying to wipe his greatest victory from the record books. It ain't cool.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Who needs reflexes when you have Woods and Harding in front of you, brah? Please don't make excuses for Roy. Spare a thought for Dixon. It's a bad enough that he went life and death with a 70 year old. He doesn't need you lot trying to wipe his greatest victory from the record books. It ain't cool.


I'm utterly detached emotionally on this particular topic. Full Credit for Dixon.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Speaking of detached, I somehow managed to get through Lewis-Tucker last night. 

Sigh.


----------



## Ivan Drago (Jun 3, 2013)

Hagler would look good against Jones Jr.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Perhaps he hadn't trained accordingly or the fluctuations in weight affected him, but Jones was not a shot fighter physically. I say this because he was still competitive In the first fight and against championship level opposition. It's not as though he was mangled and embarrassed second time around, he got caught with a big shot. It happens. Tarver was a genuine puncher at that weight.
> 
> Barrera was knackered after 10 rounds against JMM. The pace hadn't been too taxing and he had always had a reputation for finishing fights as strongly as he started them (McKinney, Morales, Hamed). So this was an indication to me that he was past his best physically. He wasn't shot though otherwise he wouldn't have been competitive with a fighter of JMM's calibre.


Roy went from being seemingly unbeatable to just competitive.
And it took just 1 fight.

That's a huge change.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> You know it finished in February 1987 for me too mate.


Think you meant to say April, brother. Anyhow:

09/78: Floyd Mayweather Sr. (15-1) [Top 10 WW]
10/78: Randy Shields (31-4) [Top 5 WW]
01/79: Johnny Gant (44-11) [Top 5 WW]
04/79: Adolfo Viruet (16-3) [Top 10 JWW] (@147)
06/79: Tony Chiaverini (30-4) [Top 5 LMW] (@154)
08/79: Pete Ranzany (45-3) [Top 5 WW]
09/79: Andy Price (28-5) [Top 10 WW]
11/79: Wilfred Benitez (38-0) [WW Champion; #3 P4P]
03/80: Dave Green (33-2) [Top 10 WW]
06/80: Roberto Duran (71-1) [No. 2 WW; #1 P4P]
11/80: Roberto Duran (72-1) [WW Champion, #1 P4P]
07/81: Ayub Kalule (36-0) [LMW Champion]
09/81: Thomas Hearns (32-0) [Top 1 WW; #1 P4P, WBA]
02/82: Bruce Finch (28-3) [Top 10 WW]
04/87: Marvin Hagler (62-2) [MW Champion, #1 P4P]


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Think you meant to say April, brother. Anyhow:
> 
> 09/78: Floyd Mayweather Sr. (15-1) [Top 10 WW]
> 10/78: Randy Shields (31-4) [Top 5 WW]
> ...


I've done that twice now and I don't know why.I'll probably even be having an anniversary party next year.
I can even remember the fight being on a Monday and avoiding all the papers and news until we got it on a Tuesday(Go on,tell me it was a Wednesday)
And an outdoor fight.Silly boy.
'79 was quite the year.Sadly I was just a little too young to take that all in.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> I've done that twice now and I don't know why.I'll probably even be having an anniversary party next year.
> I can even remember the fight being on a Monday and avoiding all the papers and news until we got it on a Tuesday(Go on,tell me it was a Wednesday)
> And an outdoor fight.Silly boy.
> '79 was quite the year.Sadly I was just a little too young to take that all in.


Palomino and Pepino were both two solid, HOF-worthy Welterweight Champions but they should've unified those titles. They must've thought everything was peaches just doing their own thing, making defences, no Napoles-level around... Then these motherfuckers come crashing through the door.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> A friendly advice: stay away from Michigan.
> 
> You and your raspberry beret are not welcomed there.


There's really no case for Toney being #1 P4P at the time of the Jones fight. None. A 147 Whitaker is technically a 'past prime' Whitaker, although he was razor blades at 140 against JCC boogeyman Pineda. That Whitaker is still a better fighter than James Toney. Why isn't him being #2 good enough for these Jones fanboys? That's damn impressive.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> There's really no case for Toney being #1 P4P at the time of the Jones fight. None. A 147 Whitaker is technically a 'past prime' Whitaker, although he was razor blades at 140 against JCC boogeyman Pineda. That Whitaker is still a better fighter than James Toney. Why isn't him being #2 good enough for these Jones fanboys? That's damn impressive.


#1 isn't good enough.

Toney was simply the most talented smw of all time.
If Steve Collins words are to be trusted


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why do I deny facts?


Because McGirt's head looks like a deleted scene from Aliens.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> #1 isn't good enough.
> 
> Toney was simply the most talented smw of all time.
> 
> If Steve Collins words are to be trusted


:rofl



Lester1583 said:


> Because McGirt's head looks like a deleted scene from Aliens.


"Some people believed" Toney was #1 because coming off the Tiberi and McCallum losses, he beat Iran Barkley, Tim Littles and Prince Charles. I bet if I started talking up Toney's crazy great talent again, you'd switch and start dumping on him.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Speaking of detached, I somehow managed to get through Lewis-Tucker last night.
> 
> Sigh.


I somehow managed to get through Barrera-McKinney last night without making a mess of things. It could probably cure ED.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Honestly better than anything Bowie or Prince ever wrote, in all due utmost respect.


Honestly not that big of a compliment, in all due utmost disrespect.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Because McGirt's head looks like a deleted scene from Aliens.


Lester,you are my main source of belly laughs this week,and I can only thank you for that,but I need to clear some thing up.
I know Bill J is the poster you think I have in mind,but I gave up tagging Bill about a year ago as he either isn't here much,or being a two percenter,he feels I am beneath him taking time to respond(it's the food chain,I'm not bitter).
But Flea is more of an educator to me,whilst you are a two percenter who regularly makes me laugh,so the comment attributed to you about Monzon and the dark side just tells me I can jest with you(although the subject matter is deadly serious and not to be taken "lightly")

So I look forward to your condescending reply.Keep Up the good work.:good


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> I somehow managed to get through Barrera-McKinney last night without making a mess of things. It could probably cure ED.


ED?


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

PityTheFool said:


> ED?


Erectile dysfunction


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Honestly not that big of a compliment, in all due utmost disrespect.


And that doesn't bode well for Axl, because I wasn't being particularly serious. Estranged is a great track though.


----------



## Axe Murderer (Jul 15, 2014)

Roy Jones is the most overrated fighter in history.

Lomachenko is the most overrated fighter today.

Marco Antonio Barrera would turn Wilfredo Gomez into a human Piñata.

Ismael Barroso would knock Julio Cesar Chavez out.

Ian Napa is the best defensive fighter ever.

Sung Kil Moon is the biggest badass ever.

El Nica will knock Chocolatito the fuck out.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Holmes beats Tyson prime for prime, every time


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Erectile dysfunction


Silly me.atsch

Thank you.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Axe Murderer said:


> Roy Jones is the most overrated fighter in history.
> 
> Lomachenko is the most overrated fighter today.
> 
> ...


Have to say I agree with at least a couple of those.
Some I vehemently disagree with TBF.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Michael Spinks IMO is the GOAT LHW


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Axe Murderer said:


> Marco Antonio Barrera would turn Wilfredo Gomez into a human Piñata.














> Ismael Barroso would knock Julio Cesar Chavez out.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Chuck Wepner wouldn't get past Duhaupas today


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

Marciano couldn't carry Holmes his jock strap


----------



## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

Roy Jones absolutely eviscerates Tommy Hearns within 2 rounds.

Mayweather Jr vs Ray Leonard would be a closely disputed razor close decision either way.

Fans who think anyone pre Joe Louis beats any of the modern greats are delusional


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Michael Spinks beat Larry Holmes in both fights and would have "eviscerated" Jones at 175lbs, but his one punch power is overrated.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Julio Cesar Chavez Sr's chin was fine china, we just never saw any evidence of until his later years because he was a defensive maestro on the Whitaker-scale.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Malinga - Lindell Holmes?


Check your PM (conversations).



Powerpuncher said:


> Malinga-Rochiagiani


Can't find any info on it.

But it was filmed, so there is a hope.



Powerpuncher said:


> Robbed against the Italian before that.


Blatant corruption.

The fight itself was rather dull, uneventful and even, more or less.

But in the 9th round Malinga hits a Nardiello in the chest, the Italian takes a knee, and Mickey Vann with a concerned look on his face asks him if he's ok instead of calling it a knockdown.

And then seconds later Vann takes a point away from Malinga for an inoffensive-looking low blow.

Yup, that's boxing!

Sugarboy = the real Glen Johnson = the unluckiest unheralded fighter of the 90's?

The definition of a solid pro.

Did nothing outstanding - although his jab was good - but but did plenty of textbook things well.
Even if his stance was awkward/borderline funny-looking.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Fuck Sergio Martinez.I was never a fan.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Fuck Sergio Martinez.I was never a fan.


Disgusting Avatar.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Disgusting Avatar.


:lol: Tyson Fury is in shape for this rematch :rofl :deal


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Michael Spinks beat Larry Holmes in both fights and would have "eviscerated" Jones at 175lbs, but his one punch power is overrated.


I'll give you the first fight but that was a far past prime Larry.Make that fight three or four years earlier and Spinks gets stopped.

However I am a huge fan of Jinx at 175.Love the Johnson fight and he is definitely top 2 or 3 at worst.

MSM is my favourite LHW though.If that guy had been white he's have been bigger than Gatti.


----------



## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

I always believed that Ricardo Lopez was succesful because he had fought in a weightclass that suited his dimensions.

Imagine if he started out at 112 which was the norm half a century ago. A lot of greats at that weight would give him fits.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> Julio Cesar Chavez was a defensive maestro on the Whitaker-scale.


El Rey De "Bending"!






(Chin still Cast Iron)


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> - Burger King, baby!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never.

James is like the first love - pure and untouchable.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> :lol: Tyson Fury is in shape for this rematch :rofl :deal


Without a doubt, the most exemplary example of the male form. Actually the norm in Western societies today.



Lester1583 said:


> Never.
> 
> James is like the first love - pure and untouchable.


Lies.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Lies.


Nice boys don't play rock-n-roll.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> The Dream We All Dream Of.


Dooran-Boolsheeto at 135 lbs?


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Dooran-Boolsheeto at 135 lbs?


- Little big Ortiz, baby you're much too good.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Quincy Taylor is a H2H nightmare for Hagler.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Top 4 Guns easy. Maybe higher.


Seen Bogotazo's Top 10?

And I only make the corrections to keep you sharp. I don't want any of these young lions in here showing you up on account of rust.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Without a doubt, the most exemplary example of the male form. Actually the norm in Western societies today.


You fuck with the heavyweight division right now? I know you are generally bored of the current boxing scene, but HW boxing has come alive. Haye, Parker, Joshua, Fury, Wilder, Luis Ortiz, etc


----------



## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

tommygun711 said:


> You fuck with the heavyweight division right now? I know you are generally bored of the current boxing scene, but HW boxing has come alive. Haye, Parker, Joshua, Fury, Wilder, Luis Ortiz, etc


I don't fully agree on this, see I think the division for sure is alive and decent but other people only mentioned it after Klitschko was dethroned. But that doesn't change the fact that there were loads of good contenders/prospects around who would win what they did wether or not Fury had won.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Quincy Taylor is a H2H nightmare for Hagler.


He wasn't a natural middleweight - of course, he is.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

knowimuch said:


> I don't fully agree on this, see I think the division for sure is alive and decent but other people only mentioned it after Klitschko was dethroned. But that doesn't change the fact that there were loads of good contenders/prospects around who would win what they did wether or not Fury had won.


The point is that the division is wide open now that the champ has been dethroned. More competitive fights to be made and more genuine excitement.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Seen Bogotazo's Top 10?
> 
> And I only make the corrections to keep you sharp. I don't want any of these young lions in here showing you up on account of rust.


Corrections appreciated.Always were.

You mean Ed "I love Slash and he's too good for Axl who has no scratch" Bogo?

The guy who hasn't come to me and said "I'm so sorry I ever doubted you"?
That Bogo?


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Take that one to _heart!

Da nao na nao._


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Corrections appreciated.Always were.
> 
> You mean Ed "I love Slash and he's too good for Axl who has no scratch" Bogo?
> 
> ...


So I assume everything has been called off? Shame.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> So I assume everything has been called off? Shame.


http://consequenceofsound.net/2016/...s-while-riding-a-scooter-through-the-airport/

He says his favourite AC/DC song is my daughter's favourite and has never been played live.

I feel like phoning her and waking her up
:happy:happy

:flossy​


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> So I assume everything has been called off? Shame.


If you mean me and Bogo,never.

But I might get dates wrong,but I'm usually right about the important things and I know he'll agree I was right.


----------



## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

In fact @Hands of Iron

Scratch that


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Ohh I have a good one for your thread @Pedderrs

PED/Roids don't make fuck of a difference, ask Vargas when he fought Oscar, Berto when he fought Ortiz, Bey when he fought Molina, ect,ect...

Fighters and butthurt fanboys saying so and so fighters wouldn't have lost cus so and so fighters were on something is the lamest excuse out there.

No, or your favorite fighters didn't lose because the guy was on something, you weren't good enough, period.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

^^ Marquez fans lashing out.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> ^^ Marquez fans lashing out.


:yep


----------



## Axe Murderer (Jul 15, 2014)

Myung Yuh Woo would beat Jung Koo Chang.

Before Justin Bieber there was Art Aragon.

Sergey Kovalev could move up to HW and knock Wilder the fuck out.

Lou Bizarro had the best footwork ever.

Harry Greb would have handled Jack Dempsey.

Henry Hank makes Charley Burley look like a bum in comparison.

Jake Lamotta rolled with punches as easy as Snoop Dog rolls a joint.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> Ohh I have a good one for your thread @Pedderrs
> 
> PED/Roids don't make fuck of a difference, ask Vargas when he fought Oscar, Berto when he fought Ortiz, Bey when he fought Molina, ect,ect....


um

of COURSE they make a difference. otherwise, fighters and athletes wouldnt use them.. I really don't get this line of thought. Just because those fighters beat them doesnt mean that peds dont do anything.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> um
> 
> of COURSE they make a difference. otherwise, fighters and athletes wouldnt use them.. I really don't get this line of thought. Just because those fighters beat them doesnt mean that peds dont do anything.


Ask Fernando Vargas if they make a difference.

I am sure fighters do think PEDs make a difference. Just how JMM believed drinking piss would make a difference. If they have it in their mind that it's going to help them, of course they're going to do it. Doesn't exactly mean that it's true.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> Ask Fernando Vargas if they make a difference.
> 
> I am sure fighters do think PEDs make a difference. Just how JMM believed drinking piss would make a difference.


:rofl dude you can bring up isolated examples all you want of clean fighters beating Roided up fighters, you CANNOT make the argument tht they don't do anything. I'm sure Vargas felt stronger with roids and felt like he could take a punch better.

I can easily flip it on you and ask this; why don't you ask Tyson, Roid Jones, Tarver, Toney, or Teper if PEDS make a difference??


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> :rofl dude you can bring up isolated examples all you want of clean fighters beating Roided up fighters, you CANNOT make the argument tht they don't do anything. I'm sure Vargas felt stronger with roids and felt like he could take a punch better.
> 
> I can easily flip it on you and ask this; why don't you ask Tyson, Roid Jones, Tarver, Toney, or Teper if PEDS make a difference??


I'm sure Vargas did feel stronger and felt he could take a punch better. It obviously wasn't the case when he fought Oscar now was it?

Ok, so let me guess.. All those guys were on PEDs when they were winning, but once they stopped using, they began to lose? :rolleyes

Whatever the case, I do believe everyone is on something nowadays. And no, I don't believe that it's because of that they win fights and it's not because their opponents were juicing that they lost. It's a lame excuse and you nothing you say will make me change my opinion.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Dooran-Boolsheeto at 135 lbs?


Duran's unpredictable explsosive style was more suited to beat Dejesus' masterful boxing.

Not sure if Chavez even beats him clearly, to be honest.
I.e. leaving no doubt that he was a better man, without plenty of people scoring the fight for Dejesus.

With that said, don't see JC getting dropped even once.
Dat balance.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Duran's unpredictable explsosive style was more suited to beat Dejesus' masterful boxing.
> 
> Not sure if Chavez even beats him clearly, to be honest.
> I.e. leaving no doubt that he was a better man, without plenty of people scoring the fight for Dejesus.
> ...


I have a difficult time seeing a manlet lasting 15 with him myself, no matter how skilled or pristine the best punch in his arsenal.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> Duran's unpredictable explsosive style was more suited to beat Dejesus' masterful boxing.
> 
> Not sure if Chavez even beats him clearly, to be honest.
> I.e. leaving no doubt that he was a better man, without plenty of people scoring the fight for Dejesus.
> ...


I guess we'll wait and see on July 23rd


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Esteban towers over me.


Left hook and midgetism hardly were the only things that stood out about Dejesus.

You sound emotionally unstable, Vanity.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Left hook and midgetism hardly were the only things that stood out about Dejesus.
> 
> You sound emotionally unstable, Vanity.


He bested Duran at ring centre (in I) so clearly not. Or perhaps Pedderrs is correct that Robearto(e) is the most overrated fighter in history.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> He bested Duran at ring centre (in I) so clearly not. Or perhaps Pedderrs is correct that Robearto(e) is the most overrated fighter in history.


More like a master of being inconsistent.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

And Duran should have lost the first Edwin Viruet fight.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> More like a master of being inconsistent.


Quality of performances, physical conditioning and motivational factors aside (which is what I believe you're getting at more so), a peak record of 72-1-0 (56) ain't too shabby for consistency.



dyna said:


> And Duran should have lost the first Edwin Viruet fight.


Interesting, I know it was scored close anyway. There wasn't an upload last I searched, which was probably a good four years ago or so, tbf.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Quality of performances, physical conditioning and motivational factors aside (which is what I believe you're getting at more so), a peak record of 72-1-0 (56) ain't too shabby for consistency.
> 
> Interesting, I know it was scored close anyway. There wasn't an upload last I searched, which was probably a good four years ago or so, tbf.


It's been up for almost 4 years now.





At 40:40 you can hear the crowd unanimously booing as Duran gets called the winner.
Harold Lederman had it 6-3 for Duran and since he's known for his bias with come forward fighters you should always add 2 rounds to the boxer and deduct 2 round from the pressure fighter.
Works literally every time.


----------



## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

Lennox Lewis would decapitate Rocky Marciano


----------



## Axe Murderer (Jul 15, 2014)

dyna said:


> And Duran should have lost the first Edwin Viruet fight.


Yes if you score fights based on who acts like a clown instead of who's actually doing the fighting.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> It's been up for almost 4 years now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Viruet Clan were professional trolling cunts. :lol:


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2013)

Mike Tyson is the most overrated boxer in history


----------



## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

GlassJaw said:


> Mike Tyson is the most overrated boxer in history


Bullshit. That title is reserved for Ike Ibeabuchi.


----------



## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2013)

Atlanta said:


> Bullshit. That title is reserved for Ike Ibeabuchi.


But Ike never had the exposure like Tyson did. No one outside of boxing fans know Ibeabuchi, but EVERYONE knows Tyson. And all those people who have never seen a full fight but have seen highlight reels of Tyson knocking out tomato cans in 2 rounds think that Tyson is the best fighter ever


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

GlassJaw said:


> But Ike never had the exposure like Tyson did. No one outside of boxing fans know Ibeabuchi, but EVERYONE knows Tyson. And all those people who have never seen a full fight but have seen highlight reels of Tyson knocking out tomato cans in 2 rounds think that Tyson is the best fighter ever


Nah, people rate Mike as a great heavyweight and rightly so. he was hyperbolized to an extent sure with all those weird russian parades and shit wearing fur crowns.

Ricardo Lopez is EASILY the most overrated in all of the land.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> The Viruet Clan were professional trolling cunts. :lol:


They truly were :lol:


----------



## Trail (May 24, 2013)

Late to this thread, but I'll chuck my controversial views in...mainly to do with decisions...

Hagler beat Leonard.
Hopkins beat Calzaghe.
Shawn Porter - Kell Brook was more a draw than a win for Brook.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Nah, people rate Mike as a great heavyweight and rightly so. he was hyperbolized to an extent sure with all those weird russian parades and shit wearing fur crowns.
> 
> Ricardo Lopez is EASILY the most overrated in all of the land.


Lopez ducked the big hitters at 108lbs. It's irrefutable.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Joe Frazier would have a good chance to beat Mike Tyson prime for prime.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Joe Frazier would not have a good chance to beat Mike Tyson prime for prime.


----------



## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

It'd be a draw.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

dyna said:


> Joe Frazier would not have a good chance to beat Mike Tyson prime for prime.


If Frazier mastered the giraffe roll, he'd beat him.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Joe Frazier would not have a good chance to beat Mike Tyson prime for prime.


most people think that though

most everybody picks Tyson to blast him out early even if its more likely that Tyson gets stopped late.


----------



## Atlanta (Sep 17, 2012)

Pactards are a cancerous tumor in the bowels of the boxing community.


----------



## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

Atlanta said:


> Pactards are a cancerous tumor in the bowels of the boxing community.


You mean _were..._Marquez cured that about 3 and a half years ago.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Think you've covered it, mate.


Pretty jawr-dropping level of opposition on the whole. I ordinarily find the "Best I Faced" features and what they choose to be appalling, but Mike's was decent. I don't think you can expect him to list Jones where he should be in other categories - as he was basically at peak level - given the state of McCallum's ability at the time but at least he doesn't snub him like Dooran did Hearns. And like they both did Body Snatcher. Dig?

*Best overall: James Toney *- He wasn't a complete fighter the first time we fought, and I still believe I won that fight. But he learned in that fight and he got better. He grew with each fight. By our third fight, he was a different fighter, a complete fighter. He was someone who could do it all, fight inside or outside, work offense and defense at the same time, just like me when I was younger. I like to think that I helped James mature as a fighter.

*Best boxer: Herol Graham *- He was a pure boxer, a southpaw and very elusive. It wasn't easy to hit him. He was very smart, very skilled.

*Best puncher: Julian Jackson *- He hit me so hard! Julian wasn't just powerful, he was also real quick. I got caught by a right hand in the first round of our fight and I remember thinking "What's wrong with my legs?" I tried my best to hide it from him. I knew I had to take him out as soon as I could.

*Best defense: Sumbu Kalambay *- I fought many good defensive fighters. Toney had a good defense. Graham was slippery. Jones was fast and slick, but Kalambay is No. 1. I can't forget about him. He's the first fighter to beat me and it's because of his good movement. He was always sliding side to side, very shifty. He was a dangerous boy.

*Fastest hands: Jackson *- He was quick, man. That's why he got so many knockouts. Everyone focused on his power and then he'd get you with a punch you didn't see. They landed on you - boom! - from out of nowhere. Kalambay and Toney were also fast. So was Jones, obviously, but I fought him when I was older and had slowed down a bit.

*Fastest feet: Roy Jones *- He had very quick feet. He was elusive just because of his footwork.

*Best chin: Steve Collins *- I almost said Toney, but Collins had the best chin. I hit him right on his chin all night and he wouldn't budge. I couldn't hit Toney that much and when I did, he backed off. Collins walked through punches.

*Best jab: Donald Curry *- I fought many fighters with good jabs. Kalambay could win fights with just his jab. McCrory had a good, hard jab. But Curry's was the best. I see why they called him "the Cobra" because he didn't miss with it. He was a bad man with that jab.

*Strongest: Michael Watson *- Oh my God, he was so strong. That's why that fight was so hard. It was a gruesome fight, 11 rounds of back and forth hell.

*Smartest: Roy Jones Jr. *- I fought quite a few smart boys in my time. Graham was a cunning S.O.B. I remember him sticking his tongue out at me whenever I'd miss a punch. Kalambay was smart and so was Toney, although he didn't have the experience to back it up when we first fought. But I think Roy may have been the smartest. He was very clever, which didn't surprise me. I knew he was sharp. It was like he was always one step ahead of me.


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

What fight was McCallum watching? He dominated Watson.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Pedderrs said:


> What fight was McCallum watching? He dominated Watson.


Probably my fave performance from him come to think, but at least he wasn't being an egotistical cock and bullshitting his way through it. Didn't Duran say DeJesus hit harder than Hearns or some shit? :rofl Like, Robearto is a Top 3 Hands of Iron ATG fave but my god does he say some utter, utter fucking tosh. Be Honest man, fuck me. He was a complete cockhead on that Latin Legends documentary too. Extremely unlikeable from how I remember it.


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