# Where do you rank Mayweather's defense and ring IQ on the ATG list?



## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Defense - personally, I think Mayweather is the greatest defensive fighter of all time. In 45 fights, 339 rounds, dude has been hurt only twice - once against Corely, and once against Mosely. He very seldom gets hits cleanly to the head. Whitaker's defense was flashier, more there to been seen, but not necessarily more effective than Mayweather's defense.

Ring IQ - I'd say top 5 ATG, easily. Someone can make a strong case for him being no. 1.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Mayweather's defense greatness gets exaggerated to an extent. For example Locche for me looked better but look at his opponents. Whitaker's defense held up against the likes of Chavez, Nelson, Ramirez, McGirt pretty much all of them in their primes.I hold them to a much higher esteem then Marquez, Cotto or an old Mosley and finished Oscar. Whitaker did what he wanted when he wanted, Floyd could never replicate that. 

Ring IQ is way too subjective to even speculate on.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Mayweather's defense greatness gets exaggerated to an extent. For example Locche for me looked better but look at his opponents. Whitaker's defense held up against the likes of Chavez, Nelson, Ramirez, McGirt pretty much all of them in their primes.I hold them to a much higher esteem then Marquez, Cotto or an old Mosley and finished Oscar. Whitaker did what he wanted when he wanted, Floyd could never replicate that.
> 
> Ring IQ is way too subjective to even speculate on.


WHAT???


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## Pedderrs (Jun 1, 2012)

Personally, I think Floyd Mayweather Jr is the only great defensive fighter that you care to talk about.


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## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

He is the greatest defensive fighter of all time hands down. Whitaker is one of my favorites of all time and he can't get this over Floyd. Floyd has set records in the hit and don't get hit department. 

His ring IQ is ranked top 5 hands down and you can put him anywhere you like. He always adjust and be doesn't get hit with the same shit. He also adjust his offense as well even when he is having success he changes up and after that he goes back to what worked early on and even changes that to a degree.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Abraham said:


> WHAT???


Blapshemy!!!

Floyd is one of the greatest defensive of all time but what I'm trying to get to is I don't think he'd be as effective against the guys Whitaker faced to the extent Whitaker was and think just how great Mayweather is defensively gets overrated by some due to his opponents. Not saying the ones I mentioned are of low quality nothing could be further from the truth but I hold the the versions of the fighters beaten by Whitaker to a higher degree. He handled prime Chavez and Nelson with ease. What I meant when I said Floyd couldn't replicate what Whitaker did is that Floyd is a very conservative fighter. Whitaker could be conserative and counter, he could stick and move or he could be aggressive and stand toe to toe. He was good enough to stand in front of Chavez and slug it out with him for portions of the fight and landed basically at will and got little in return. I don't think Floyd could do that just my opinion.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> He is the greatest defensive fighter of all time hands down. Whitaker is one of my favorites of all time and he can't get this over Floyd. Floyd has set records in the hit and don't get hit department.
> 
> His ring IQ is ranked top 5 hands down and you can put him anywhere you like. He always adjust and be doesn't get hit with the same shit. He also adjust his offense as well even when he is having success he changes up and after that he goes back to what worked early on and even changes that to a degree.


Couldn't adjust to Cotto's jab. Just playing devil's advocate. Hue hue hue.


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## MrJotatp4p (May 23, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Blapshemy!!!
> 
> Floyd is one of the greatest defensive of all time but what I'm trying to get to is I don't think he'd be as effective against the guys Whitaker faced to the extent Whitaker was and think just how great Mayweather is defensively gets overrated by some due to his opponents. Not saying the ones I mentioned are of low quality nothing could be further from the truth but I hold the the versions of the fighters beaten by Whitaker to a higher degree. He handled prime Chavez and Nelson with ease. What I meant when I said Floyd couldn't replicate what Whitaker did is that Floyd is a very conservative fighter. Whitaker could be conserative and counter, he could stick and move or he could be aggressive and stand toe to toe. He was good enough to stand in front of Chavez and slug it out with him for portions of the fight and landed basically at will and got little in return. I don't think Floyd could do that just my opinion.


You must remember that Floyd was known to be very aggressive at the lower weights from 130 to 140. He could very well trade with Chavez. Hell is a better offensive fighter than Whitaker.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Pedderrs said:


> Personally, I think Floyd Mayweather Jr is the only great defensive fighter that you care to talk about.


No, I just think he is the greatest defensive fighter I've ever seen in my life. He approaches not getting hit with the mental dexterity of a savant. Whitaker is a close second, and I think the only reason people choose him over Mayweather is because he was so flashy with his defense. Willie Pep, Bernard Hopkins, and Wilfred Benitez would round out my top 5.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Couldn't adjust to Cotto's jab. Just playing devil's advocate. Hue hue hue.


He did seem a bit flummoxed in the Cotto fight at times, but wasn't nearly as troubled by Cotto's jab as people make it out to be. And he didn't adjust to Cotto's jab because he didn't have to. It's not like Cotto was winning rounds with his jab. What he did adjust to is Cotto's effectiveness in round 8 when he was against the ropes. Cotto tried the same thing in round 9, but couldn't pull it off.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> You must remember that Floyd was known to be very aggressive at the lower weights from 130 to 140. He could very well trade with Chavez. Hell is a better offensive fighter than Whitaker.


Never heard of Hell :huh

I know he was, his performance against Gatti for example but that was him against a very outgunned opponent and was at his absolute most brutal. Just that Whitaker could be like that against somebody like Chavez and even had him taking a few backwards steps. Whitaker doesn't hit as hard as May but watch how aggressive he could be, landing whole combinations and pressing a guy like Chavez.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Abraham said:


> He did seem a bit flummoxed in the Cotto fight at times, but wasn't nearly as troubled by Cotto's jab as people make it out to be. And he didn't adjust to Cotto's jab because he didn't have to. It's not like Cotto was winning rounds with his jab. What he did adjust to is Cotto's effectiveness in round 8 when he was against the ropes. Cotto tried the same thing in round 9, but couldn't pull it off.


I thought he did win rounds with his jab although not solely based on it. Cotto for me looked like he ran out of gas and stopped really pressing Mayweather like he was beforehand. The left hand seems to give Floyd more troubles than the right which very rarely lands on him. Mosley managed to land 2 good ones but that's about it.


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

Contrast how often an old Whitaker was hit by a young DLH to a prime Mayweather and how often he was hit by an old DLH.

Floyd is over-rated defensively and under-rated offensively. There I said it.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

he's the best defensive fighter i've ever seen. he's also the smartest fighter i've ever seen.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Danny said:


> Contrast how often an old Whitaker was hit by a young DLH to a prime Mayweather and how often he was hit by an old DLH.
> 
> Floyd is over-rated defensively and under-rated offensively. There I said it.


See this guy get's whatimsayn.


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

MrJotatp4p said:


> You must remember that Floyd was known to be very aggressive at the lower weights from 130 to 140. He could very well trade with Chavez. Hell is a better offensive fighter than Whitaker.


Whitaker is very under-rated offensively too. Watch him displaying his full offensive arsenal against Harold Brazier, great example of his body punching quality when he needed to use it.


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## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Nobody even mentioning Willie Pep in here once


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Couldn't adjust to Cotto's jab. Just playing devil's advocate. Hue hue hue.


Umm Cotto threw 177 jabs and landed 30 of them.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Umm Cotto threw 177 jabs and landed 30 of them.


Good stuff Jim Lampley.


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Umm Cotto threw 177 jabs and landed 30 of them.


Often a jab is not intent to land: see Rigo.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

chibelle said:


> Often a jab is not intent to land: see Rigo.


That's the problem with punch stats. Feinting jabs, pitter patter jabs, range finders etc. are taken into account. Cotto had Mayweather's nose leaking like a faucet from his only 30 jabs.


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## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

Danny said:


> Contrast how often an old Whitaker was hit by a young DLH to a prime Mayweather and how often he was hit by an old DLH.
> 
> Floyd is over-rated defensively and under-rated offensively. There I said it.


baring in mind that's floyd fighting at his worst weight for the first time 
don't think you can say that's a prime floyd really
his best is a few divisions lower


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

Hook! said:


> baring in mind that's floyd fighting at his worst weight for the first time
> don't think you can say that's a prime floyd really
> his best is a few divisions lower


I do believe 147 is prime Floyd. He had ridiculous speed at the lower weights and more power and was more aggressive, however he's not exactly lacking in any of those areas at welterweight (you can say aggression, but it's just how he's phased that out and become more defensive over the years, he's still capable of going on the offensive when he needs to and wants to, you could also say power, but he hits hard even to gain respect from guys even with iron chins like DLH, Mosley etc), however I just real over the years he's become a lot more adaptable and a helluva lot smarter. His ring craft is his greatest asset and it's been at it's peak in the last few years.


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## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

Danny said:


> I do believe 147 is prime Floyd. He had ridiculous speed at the lower weights and more power and was more aggressive, however he's not exactly lacking in any of those areas at welterweight (you can say aggression, but it's just how he's phased that out and become more defensive over the years, he's still capable of going on the offensive when he needs to and wants to, you could also say power, but he hits hard even to gain respect from guys even with iron chins like DLH, Mosley etc), however I just real over the years he's become a lot more adaptable and a helluva lot smarter. His ring craft is his greatest asset and it's been at it's peak in the last few years.


yeah I agree with many of your points but the floyd that fought DLH isn't the best floyd.
physical prime being lower than 140 but obviously he's a better fighter mentally now, the fight against JMM seemed like the perfect mix which was at 147.


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## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

Defensively he's a hell of a talented fighter, can't say anything to the contrary. I'm extremely impressed with him defensively. The GOAT defensively? Highly speculative...there are a couple of guys right in that ballpark I think. Been watching some Locche recently, and he's friggin' good too, without having Floyd's natural physical talent. For that reason, I tend to be more impressed with Locche. 

And that brings me to the second point, ring IQ. How much is real ring IQ and how much is raw athletic talent and to a point, mindset and style? Where does the one end and the others begin? Would he get away with what he does if he was a tad slower, less lithe? A little more adventurous? For me, ring IQ can be measured in a multitude of ways really. It's an extremely speculative and subjective 'grey area.'


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Top 3 or so. Whitaker, Floyd, Pep.


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## Danny (May 31, 2012)

Hook! said:


> yeah I agree with many of your points but the floyd that fought DLH isn't the best floyd.
> physical prime being lower than 140 but obviously he's a better fighter mentally now, the fight against JMM seemed like the perfect mix which was at 147.


Maybe, I said prime though not his absolute peak, if we're talking about a one-off fight at his absolute peak then JMM might be it yeah, but I feel he was entering his prime as a fighter come the DLH fight. Although he might be better now than he ever has been to be honest.


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## Hook! (Jun 8, 2012)

Danny said:


> Maybe, I said prime though not his absolute peak, if we're talking about a one-off fight at his absolute peak then JMM might be it yeah, but I feel he was entering his prime as a fighter come the DLH fight. Although he might be better now than he ever has been to be honest.


yeah just that he hadn't fought at the weight before like
agree in the main mate


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## JMP (Jun 3, 2013)

So many things to take into account here and a myriad of fighters throughout history to consider, but all I'll say is that he has to be considered one of the elite all-timers in both categories.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Right at the top


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Mayweather's defense greatness gets exaggerated to an extent. For example Locche for me looked better but look at his opponents. Whitaker's defense held up against the likes of Chavez, Nelson, Ramirez, McGirt pretty much all of them in their primes.I hold them to a much higher esteem then Marquez, Cotto or an old Mosley and finished Oscar. Whitaker did what he wanted when he wanted, Floyd could never replicate that.
> 
> Ring IQ is way too subjective to even speculate on.


You realize that your entire post is speculation, right? You're *assuming *Floyd's defense wouldn't hold up versus Chavez, Nelson, Ramirez, Mcgirt, etc. It's hard to deny that it would considering it has his entire professional career, albeit versus lesser competition...but still


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> You realize that your entire post is speculation, right? You're *assuming *Floyd's defense wouldn't hold up versus Chavez, Nelson, Ramirez, Mcgirt, etc. It's hard to deny that it would considering it has his entire professional career, albeit versus lesser competition...but still


Yeah. All my opinion. But it's the same reason I'm reluctant to call Locche the best defensive fighter despite the fact I think he 'looks' better than May and Pea.


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm still of the opinion that no fighter looks better on film than Sexi... I mean Sergio Martinez


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

chibelle said:


> Often a jab is not intent to land: see Rigo.


Cotto is a converted southpaw, his jab is his main weapon like Oscar. Its thrown with ill intentions and power nothing compared to thr way Rigo or say Floyd uses it


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> That's the problem with punch stats. Feinting jabs, pitter patter jabs, range finders etc. are taken into account. Cotto had Mayweather's nose leaking like a faucet from his only 30 jabs.


Nice exaggeration. Floyd had a bloody nose and won the fight wide on the judges and any knowledgeable fans scorecard.

Cotto landed 2 jabs according to compubox over the last 3 rounds

I.e nuetralized just like he nuetralized Oscars jab


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Cotto is a converted southpaw, his jab is his main weapon like Oscar. Its thrown with ill intentions and power nothing compared to thr way Rigo or say Floyd uses it


Floyd sometimes would use his jab as a true weapon though. Like in the DLH fight or the Guererro fight or when he knocked that guy down with a bodyshot jab (cant remember who it is)

I get what you're saying, but I think he is more effective with his jab than Rigo for sure.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

As for the thread, yeah hes top 5 easily. One of the only fighters that has maintained the same level of defense throughout their whole career. My top 6 defensive ATGs would be Whitaker, Locche, pep, mayweather, Jimmy Young, and prime Bhop based on what we have on film.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

When Floyd doesn't want to be hit, it is damn hard for anyone to hit him. The guy got multi-layered defense. A solution in every situation/range. Whitaker get too overrated due to his showboating but mainly he just relies on his upper body movement/ducks. And Pep gets grossly overrated in defense when all he does is run/duck. Anyone who box would know the level of difficulty that Floyd operate at. Floyd's defense would not only protect him from receiving damage but he is also making you pay damn near every time. Whitaker avoids punches but seldom give much back but he is either squatting down, skipping away, showboating. Not saying he wasn't good but there is more than what you see.


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## p.townend (May 17, 2013)

I have only seen him look in any sort of bother once and it was against Shane. He regained composure quickly and never allowed that shot to even get close again. For me he counts on reflex and speed a bit too much but it has worked very well so far. I do have a feeling he might get caught the way Roy Jones did in the end if he keeps on messing about with the catchweight stuff. The lad has been hit and hard though by some very good fighters and when his chin has been tested it has held up. Great fighter who if he keeps it sensible regarding the weights will know when to get out and do so unbeaten.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Cotto is a converted southpaw, his jab is his main weapon like Oscar. Its thrown with ill intentions and power nothing compared to thr way Rigo or say Floyd uses it


Rigo's jab is shit :lol: Little more than a rangefinder that gives his opponent something to look at. Why his overall accuracy looks so relatively low even though he lands the left hand and ocassional right hook at a >40% clip. I know what you mean re: compared to Cotto, Oscar... or Ward, but Floyd's is pretty damn good I think and he uses it in a variety of ways. It can definitely take rounds on it's own in conjunction with his D.


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## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

I don't know about ring IQ.

Hopkins was a master of the ring up until now. It seems as though he is in his living room during a fight. I think he is a smarter fighter then Floyd. 

Defensively, he might. Although I still consider Pep the best of all time. Nevermind the fact that he had a legendary tale of winning a round without a punch.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Mayweather's talent gets exaggerated. He's not a multi dimensional fighter. He doesn't have an ATG all round skill set, but he's easily a top 5 defensive great. I cant put him number one when he never really tested his defensive skill against an ATG offensive fighter in their prime.


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## ChampionsForever (Jun 5, 2013)

He is the best defensive fighter Ive ever seen, if you have him on the ropes, your about the hit a lot of thin air.


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## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

The quality of Floyd's opponents don't match up to people that Whitaker fought. Floyd is a defensive master but he's also not been tested against the era's best offensive fighters. Castillo beat him IMO with a very specific gameplan, one that a past-his-best Cotto tried to emulate and had some success with and that past-it DLH also had some success with. I think Floyd knows his strengths and weaknesses better than his fans...how would Floyd do against a 1985 Hagler, or a peak Hearns or a swarming Duran or even a peak Pacquiao? 

Floyd is the best defensive fighter of his generation but of all time? No chance


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## El-Terrible (Jun 5, 2013)

ChampionsForever said:


> He is the best defensive fighter Ive ever seen, if you have him on the ropes, your about the hit a lot of thin air.


I still remember the thin air Foreman was hitting when Ali was on the ropes, and the size difference and power difference was much greater than anything Mayweather has faced...as I say, greatest of the era I agree, but not beyond that - as I said, Castillo, Cotto and DLH had some success against Mayweather when he was on the ropes


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Nice exaggeration. Floyd had a bloody nose and won the fight wide on the judges and any knowledgeable fans scorecard.
> 
> Cotto landed 2 jabs according to compubox over the last 3 rounds
> 
> I.e nuetralized just like he nuetralized Oscars jab


Cool stats bro. "According to combpubox" yes they're all quite concrete and reliable as other here have proven.

Floyd most certainly had a bloody nose and although he won Cotto did better than overwhelming majority. Won 3 straight rounds on my card and another I believe. Cases could be made for more given his aggression.


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

El-Terrible said:


> I still remember the thin air Foreman was hitting when Ali was on the ropes, and the size difference and power difference was much greater than anything Mayweather has faced...as I say, greatest of the era I agree, but not beyond that - as I said, Castillo, Cotto and DLH had some success against Mayweather when he was on the ropes


Imagine the trouble Duran for example would give Mayweather. The fluidity and speed Duran can move between defence and offence and his brilliant array of faints to set up his attacks would give Floyd nightmares. The ODH fight proved to me that Mayweather cant beat Duran. If past prime ODH gives him trouble prime Duran beats him easily imo. Mayweather wont be able to sit on the ropes and rely on the shoulder roll against a pressure fighter as skilled and clever as Duran. Mayweather hasn't fought anywhere near that calibre of fighter.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

It's right up there.

I can't put him above pea, pep or locche. Loi was pretty gifted as well.

But I'd say he's above the likes of Ali, Hopkins, Toney and Jones Jr.

In terms of ring IQ he could be argued number 1. He's one of the best ring generals of all time imo.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Defense, top 3-5, IQ, top 10.



Luf said:


> It's right up there.
> 
> I can't put him above pea, pep or locche. Loi was pretty gifted as well.
> 
> ...


One thing I was never really high on with Floyd. His ring generalship stands out among his contemporaries, but I don't even consider him the best ring general of his era. Hopkins, Marquez, and now Rigondeaux were always better at controlling the center of a ring.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't feel Floyd is among the very greatest ring generals either :conf 
Defensively it's either Floyd or Whitaker. I'm yet to analyse Toney properly as I was never really interested in that era, nor the welterweight era with the likes of Curry, Starling, Honeyghan etc. 

I couldn't say Locche has a better defense than Mayweather.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Defense, top 3-5, IQ, top 10.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I was never really high on with Floyd. His ring generalship stands out among his contemporaries, but I don't even consider him the best ring general of his era. Hopkins, Marquez, and now Rigondeaux were always better at controlling the center of a ring.


he just always seems so comfortable in the ring.

Marquez has had to change his style to get noticed and I think his ring generalship suffered. Whenever Hopkins fought a two fisted fighter with quicker hands he struggled. Rigo looks mint now but looked shocking against Cordoba and he hasn't has a long enough career for me to lavish those compliments.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> he just always seems so comfortable in the ring.
> 
> Marquez has had to change his style to get noticed and I think his ring generalship suffered. Whenever Hopkins fought a two fisted fighter with quicker hands he struggled. Rigo looks mint now *but looked shocking against Cordoba* and he hasn't has a long enough career for me to lavish those compliments.


This was only because he was trying to be someone that he wasn't and just try to appeal to fans. He went back to his actual style and eased past Cordoba afterwards.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Luf said:


> he just always seems so comfortable in the ring.
> 
> Marquez has had to change his style to get noticed and I think his ring generalship suffered. Whenever Hopkins fought a two fisted fighter with quicker hands he struggled. Rigo looks mint now but looked shocking against Cordoba and he hasn't has a long enough career for me to lavish those compliments.


Well he's comfortable because any deficiencies in his movement are compliment by his guard, and any deficiencies in his guard are complimented by his movement. He's definitely a great ring general, but it's hard for me to place him there all time when he gets cornered so often. And the response is always "But Bogo, Bogo, Floyd fights good off the ropes! He does!" And it's true, and sometimes he elects to go there himself. But sometimes that choice is made because he's not as able to control the center, and sometimes it results in him losing rounds. The way he backs up in a straight line to me is not good ring generalship, taints it. Controlling the center is a key part of being a great ring general so for me, I can't have him among the very best.

Fair points about the other fighters but the point stands that he has competition in his own era, let alone past greater ones.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> This was only because he was trying to be someone that he wasn't and just try to appeal to fans. He went back to his actual style and eased past Cordoba afterwards.


I don't really buy into excuses tbh. Like I said he looks mint now but I wanna see a bit of consistency from him.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Well he's comfortable because any deficiencies in his movement are compliment by his guard, and any deficiencies in his guard are complimented by his movement. He's definitely a great ring general, but it's hard for me to place him there all time when he gets cornered so often. And the response is always "But Bogo, Bogo, Floyd fights good off the ropes! He does!" And it's true, and sometimes he elects to go there himself. But sometimes that choice is made because he's not as able to control the center, and sometimes it results in him losing rounds. The way he backs up in a straight line to me is not good ring generalship, taints it. Controlling the center is a key part of being a great ring general so for me, I can't have him among the very best.
> 
> Fair points about the other fighters but the point stands that he has competition in his own era, let alone past greater ones.


for me it's less about the centre of the ring and more about how looks to be fighting their fight.

of course he has rivals,this is a great era for boxing. I'm not necessarily saying he is number 1 but I think a decent argument can be made.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> I don't really buy into excuses tbh. Like I said he looks mint now but I wanna see a bit of consistency from him.


? There were no excuses, he wasn't fighting like the usual Rigo.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

The Undefeated Gaul said:


> ? There were no excuses, he wasn't fighting like the usual Rigo.


my point is he's not had many fights at the top level and I'm not willing to say he's a better ring general than Floyd.


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## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

Luf said:


> my point is he's not had many fights at the top level and I'm not willing to say he's a better ring general than Floyd.


ohoh, *******.


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## mrtony80 (Jun 8, 2013)

I think Mayweather's defense and ring IQ are both easily top 3 all time. In both cases, there are guys who are only _arguably_ better than him.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

mrtony80 said:


> I think Mayweather's defense and ring IQ are both easily top 3 all time. In both cases, there are guys who are only _arguably_ better than him.


The thing with IQ is that it depends a bit on your competition. It's not a knock on Floyd's resume, but we're talking all time. Floyd isn't regularly getting into chess matches and making a series of big adjustments, he usually makes one fruitful one that carries him until the rest of the fight. That's over simplifying it since every fighter makes tons of mini-adjustments on the fly and Floyd is great at it, but in terms of dramatic adjustments, he doesn't get into the contests necessary to really have him stand above past greats in that regard.

For example, SRL outboxed Wilfred Benitez in a great chess match. Floyd doesn't have that opportunity in his own era. Duran demonstrated his IQ over many very good and great figthers, even his losing effort against Hagler was a bigger opportunity than Floyd ever had to show his IQ. You could argue Floyd had Marquez, but there are all his athletic and physical advantages on top of his IQ.

Maybe I'm just hung up on resume too much. Happens frequently.


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Up there with anyone.


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## Drew101 (Jun 30, 2012)

Thing is, there have been a *lot* of very good defensive fighters, Like Burley (that generation's Rigo, @Hands of Iron), Holman Williams, George Benton; as well as guys like Miguel Canto, Harold Johnson and Wilfred Benitez. All of these guys had superlative defensive skills...and as good as Mayweather is, it's tough to say that he ranks head and shoulders over any of these guys in that category.

That said, Mayweather's ring generalship is pretty impressive He usually finds a way to dictate the style and tempo of the fight, regardless of who he faces.


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## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Burley doesn't have enough footage imo. But yes he is a great shout.


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## HyperUppercut (Jun 5, 2013)

number 1.


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## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

chibelle said:


> Often a jab is not intent to land: see Rigo.


Good for him. He won 3 rounds. So assuming his intention was to win atleast 7 to win the fight, it doesnt seem like he did a good job.



MadcapMaxie said:


> That's the problem with punch stats. Feinting jabs, pitter patter jabs, range finders etc. are taken into account. Cotto had Mayweather's nose leaking like a faucet from his only 30 jabs.


Too bad they dont give points for nose bleeds.


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## Mind Reader (Jun 4, 2013)

Floyd's ring IQ, skills and ability is right up there with the very best all time.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Abraham said:


> No, I just think he is the greatest defensive fighter I've ever seen in my life. He approaches not getting hit with the mental dexterity of a savant. Whitaker is a close second, and I think the only reason people choose him over Mayweather is because he was so flashy with his defense. Willie Pep, Bernard Hopkins, and Wilfred Benitez would round out my top 5.


Mayweather can be caught by fighters on a far lower level than the ones Whitaker fought, and Mayweather is primarily an outside fighter, safety first. Guys like Whitaker would stand right in the pocket and evade everything. I don't think Floyd is really that impressive defensively, it's his ring IQ and mentality that keeps him out of danger most of the time. His defence in itself is just good, not even the best in the game today. I think GGG and Rigo are more impressive defensively.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> Mayweather can be caught by fighters on a far lower level than the ones Whitaker fought, and Mayweather is primarily an outside fighter, safety first. Guys like Whitaker would stand right in the pocket and evade everything. I don't think Floyd is really that impressive defensively, it's his ring IQ and mentality that keeps him out of danger most of the time. His defence in itself is just good, not even the best in the game today. I think GGG and Rigo are more impressive defensively.


Man, you are so biased. It's obvious you don't care for Mayweather. Nothing wrong with that, but at least be objective. GGG? Are you kidding me?


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Man, you are so biased. It's obvious you don't care for Mayweather. Nothing wrong with that, but at least be objective. GGG? Are you kidding me?


Because he gets hit more than Floyd his defence isn't as good? GGG comes forwards all the time, rolling and slipping shots. The fact that he is as aggressive as he is and barely gets hit shows how good his defence is. Unlike a lot of boxers he mixes his offence into his defence, something that fighters like Floyd and even Rigo don't do too well. As you see Lomachenko come up you'll see another fighter with a similarly aggressive style who rarely gets touched. That takes truly exceptional defence, staying on the outside and being a safety first fighter makes defence a hell of a lot easier and requires far less skill.


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## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> Because he gets hit more than Floyd his defence isn't as good? GGG comes forwards all the time, rolling and slipping shots. The fact that he is as aggressive as he is and barely gets hit shows how good his defence is. Unlike a lot of boxers he mixes his offence into his defence, something that fighters like Floyd and even Rigo don't do too well. As you see Lomachenko come up you'll see another fighter with a similarly aggressive style who rarely gets touched. That takes truly exceptional defence, staying on the outside and being a safety first fighter makes defence a hell of a lot easier and requires far less skill.


Who has GGG faced that is the quality of some of Mayweather's opponents? He's a tall rangy guy who keeps people at a distance if you wanted to use a aggressive guy with good defense say Duran who beat the likes of Leonard. He molded his offense and defense beautifully.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Dealt_with said:


> Because he gets hit more than Floyd his defence isn't as good? GGG comes forwards all the time, rolling and slipping shots. The fact that he is as aggressive as he is and barely gets hit shows how good his defence is. Unlike a lot of boxers he mixes his offence into his defence, something that fighters like Floyd and even Rigo don't do too well. As you see Lomachenko come up you'll see another fighter with a similarly aggressive style who rarely gets touched. That takes truly exceptional defence, staying on the outside and being a safety first fighter makes defence a hell of a lot easier and requires far less skill.


I think Loma is going to display more dimensions than GGG as a versatile boxer-puncher who's adept at fighting inside. His movement, reflexes and speed are all levels up. I'd definitely agree regarding Rigo, and I obviously don't mean it as some sort of diss when I call him 'one-dimensional', that's just how I honestly see it since he's been in professional boxing. He's usually either on one or the other, rarely blending the two in seamless fashion. At least in terms of his upper body movement, because he's always countering or throwing sneaky, lightning quick leads and then quickly moving out of range. He's a little boss of a ring general though despite the very one-mode style.


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## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

MrJotatp4p said:


> You must remember that Floyd was known to be very aggressive at the lower weights from 130 to 140. He could very well trade with Chavez. Hell is a better offensive fighter than Whitaker.


Some of his very early fights, like first 10 fights or so, even then the announcers and I think RJJ (as announcers) were comparing him to whitaker.


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## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> _*Because he gets hit more than Floyd his defence isn't as good? G*_GG comes forwards all the time, rolling and slipping shots. The fact that he is as aggressive as he is and barely gets hit shows how good his defence is. Unlike a lot of boxers he mixes his offence into his defence, something that fighters like Floyd and even Rigo don't do too well. As you see Lomachenko come up you'll see another fighter with a similarly aggressive style who rarely gets touched. That takes truly exceptional defence, staying on the outside and being a safety first fighter makes defence a hell of a lot easier and requires far less skill.


:lol: yes. jesus christ, that is the purpose of a defense, not to get hit. If you get hit less, youre better. and fuck no GGG isnt as good as mayweather.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> Because he gets hit more than Floyd his defence isn't as good? GGG comes forwards all the time, rolling and slipping shots. The fact that he is as aggressive as he is and barely gets hit shows how good his defence is. Unlike a lot of boxers he mixes his offence into his defence, something that fighters like Floyd and even Rigo don't do too well. As you see Lomachenko come up you'll see another fighter with a similarly aggressive style who rarely gets touched. That takes truly exceptional defence, staying on the outside and being a safety first fighter makes defence a hell of a lot easier and requires far less skill.


Wtf? :lol:, yes, that is exactly why his defense isn't as good as Floyd's, because he gets hit more. He's been caught cleanly more times in his 28 fight career than Floyd has been caught in his 45 fight career.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

elterrible said:


> :lol: yes. jesus christ, that is the purpose of a defense, not to get hit. If you get hit less, youre better. and fuck no GGG isnt as good as mayweather.





Abraham said:


> Wtf? :lol:, yes, that is exactly why his defense isn't as good as Floyd's, because he gets hit more. He's been caught cleanly more times in his 28 fight career than Floyd has been caught in his 45 fight career.


Sometimes I really feel like I'm talking to mentally challenged people on here. If you are always in the line of fire you're going to get hit more. How good is Dirrell's defence when he's literally running away from an opponent. I mean he's not getting hit, great skilful defence on display. Floyd has been caught cleanly plenty of times, despite his backfoot style. He honestly isn't a quarter of the defensive fighter that someone like Whitaker or Toney was.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> Sometimes I really feel like I'm talking to mentally challenged people on here. If you are always in the line of fire you're going to get hit more. How good is Dirrell's defence when he's literally running away from an opponent. I mean he's not getting hit, great skilful defence on display. Floyd has been caught cleanly plenty of times, despite his backfoot style. He honestly isn't a quarter of the defensive fighter that someone like Whitaker or Toney was.


Damn, you are out of your fucking mind, dude? 1/4, huh? :lol: Prime Toney lost to Montell Griffin twice, for crissakes! But yet, he is better defensively than Floyd? A case can be made that Whitaker was better defensively, but 75% better? Come on, dude. Be objective for once. Why don't you name all these times Mayweather has been hit, I mean, really hit, as in head snapped back?


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Damn, you are out of your fucking mind, dude? 1/4, huh? :lol: Prime Toney lost to Montell Griffin twice, for crissakes! But yet, he is better defensively than Floyd? A case can be made that Whitaker was better defensively, but 75% better? Come on, dude. Be objective for once. Why don't you name all these times Mayweather has been hit, I mean, really hit, as in head snapped back?


More than I can remember.. Castillo, Augustus, Corley, Judah, Mosley, Cotto, DLH... even Baldomir caught him with some good shots that made him think. When Toney takes shots he still sees them and rolls with them before firing back immediately, Floyd often gets caught by surprise and his instinct is to avoid further contact rather than get back immediately. Montell Griffen is an underrated fighter as well btw.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> More than I can remember.. Castillo, Augustus, Corley, Judah, Mosley, Cotto, DLH... even Baldomir caught him with some good shots that made him think. When Toney takes shots he still sees them and rolls with them before firing back immediately, Floyd often gets caught by surprise and his instinct is to avoid further contact rather than get back immediately. Montell Griffen is an underrated fighter as well btw.


Aside from Corley, you'd be hard pressed to find footage of one of the other guys you named _truly_ landing more than one hard head shot on Floyd. I remember Baldomir catching him when he tried to pull counter, but other than that, he didn't do shit. Round 7 of the 1st Castillo fight is the most lopsided round Mayweather ever lost, yet he still wasn't getting touched much.






Oh, and not to sound like a dick, but if Toney's defense was as good as you claim it to be, he wouldn't be in the state he is in today.


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## Dealt_with (Jun 4, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Aside from Corley, you'd be hard pressed to find footage of one of the other guys you named _truly_ landing more than one hard head shot on Floyd. I remember Baldomir catching him when he tried to pull counter, but other than that, he didn't do shit. Round 7 of the 1st Castillo fight is the most lopsided round Mayweather ever lost, yet he still wasn't getting touched much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You didn't see the first four rounds of the Judah fight? You're acting like Floyd has rarely lost rounds, which is complete nonsense. Even in recent times we have old DLH and Cotto snapping Floyd's head back with jabs and winning rounds.

Toney is in the state he is today because he doesn't give a fuck, he sparred anyone anytime for his conditioning and would purposely take shots to play possum. He has been in a physically deteriorated state for years fighting heavyweights despite being barely able to walk and being far past his best. His lifestyle is likely more to blame than any punches he has taken anyway. He's still never been hurt like Floyd has. And you do sound like a dick.


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## DaCrooked (Jun 6, 2013)

Dealt_with said:


> You didn't see the first four rounds of the Judah fight? You're acting like Floyd has rarely lost rounds, which is complete nonsense. Even in recent times we have old DLH and Cotto snapping Floyd's head back with jabs and winning rounds.
> 
> Toney is in the state he is today because he doesn't give a fuck, he sparred anyone anytime for his conditioning and would purposely take shots to play possum. He has been in a physically deteriorated state for years fighting heavyweights despite being barely able to walk and being far past his best. His lifestyle is likely more to blame than any punches he has taken anyway. He's still never been hurt like Floyd has. And you do sound like a dick.


DLH didn't do shit with the Jab. Cotto Landed a few. When, all you find on a guy with a 17 year, is a few jabs, that's ATG defense. Judah landed one good shot in round 4.


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Aside from Corley, you'd be hard pressed to find footage of one of the other guys you named _truly_ landing more than one hard head shot on Floyd. I remember Baldomir catching him when he tried to pull counter, but other than that, he didn't do shit. Round 7 of the 1st Castillo fight is the most lopsided round Mayweather ever lost, yet he still wasn't getting touched much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


interesting. That would have been a "normal" round for most fighters. Floyd won the 1st minute, had a competitive 2nd minute, and lost the 3rd minute.


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## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Aside from Corley, you'd be hard pressed to find footage of one of the other guys you named _truly_ landing more than one hard head shot on Floyd. I remember Baldomir catching him when he tried to pull counter, but other than that, he didn't do shit. Round 7 of the 1st Castillo fight is the most lopsided round Mayweather ever lost, yet he still wasn't getting touched much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People like quoting the total punch stats for that fight because JLC landed more. However a lot of it is not landing cleanly and is partially blocked or on his arms ect. The JLC 1 fight is overblown, its a close fight, PBF took the immediate rematch and even the floyd haters admit he wont that easy. If JLC had some magic blueprint to beat floyd he would have won the second fight.


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## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Damn, you are out of your fucking mind, dude? 1/4, huh? :lol: Prime Toney lost to Montell Griffin twice, for crissakes! But yet, he is better defensively than Floyd? A case can be made that Whitaker was better defensively, but 75% better? Come on, dude. Be objective for once. Why don't you name all these times Mayweather has been hit, I mean, really hit, as in head snapped back?


Hes either trolling or he doesnt know shit about boxing. Yeah Floyd's defense is equal to fucking unproven GGG of all people and 25% of whitaker and Toney. Holy crap.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) said:


> interesting. That would have been a "normal" round for most fighters. Floyd won the 1st minute, had a competitive 2nd minute, and lost the 3rd minute.


Yes, and that round is the example most people use to show how JLC won the fight. Imo, Mayweather has never lost a round HUGE, not from my recollection. Even when he got hurt bu Mosley, he was the one backing Shane up towards the end. Same goes for Corley.


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## Abraham (May 9, 2013)

elterrible said:


> Hes either trolling or he doesnt know shit about boxing. Yeah Floyd's defense is equal to fucking unproven GGG of all people and 25% of whitaker and Toney. Holy crap.


Dealt_with can't be objective because he hates Mayweather. I mean, I hate Hopkins, but I don't downplay his greatness!


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## Sexy Sergio ( L E O N ) (May 19, 2013)

Abraham said:


> Yes, and that round is the example most people use to show how JLC won the fight. Imo, Mayweather has never lost a round HUGE, not from my recollection. Even when he got hurt bu Mosley, he was the one backing Shane up towards the end. Same goes for Corley.


yep the only opponent who deserved a 10-8 round over Floyd was Zab in round 2. Subtract that knockdown, and Floyd edges the round.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> One thing I was never really high on with Floyd. His ring generalship stands out among his contemporaries, but I don't even consider him the best ring general of his era.


Not even after Saturday night?

:rofl

It's so over. :-( You'll never have to mention the likes of Jesus Chavez. Ever Again.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Possibly top 5 all time,definitely top 3 post-war IMO.
It's just a shame he never fought a prime ATG because it wouldn't be up for debate.He has an unbelievable ability to read fighters and I'd rate him above Benitez and Whittaker defensively for me.
But he is not a complete fighter.He is a complete defensive genius though and for someone who used to hate him,I'll be gutted when he leaves the sport and not enough people realise how much poorer the sport will be without him.
It'll take a while for me to have the same enthusiasm for the likes of Thurman and Canelo regardless of how good I think they are.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

OP has only heard of a few defensive fighters.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Not even after Saturday night?
> 
> :rofl
> 
> It's so over. :-( You'll never have to mention the likes of Jesus Chavez. Ever Again.


The more I watch the fight, the better Mayweather gets. Dudes a Legend.

Chino was dirty as fuck tho. :lol::-(


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> OP has only heard of a few defensive fighters.


Where would you put him all time mate?
I think he could squeeze the Top 5 but a lot of people seem to forget what a great defensive fighter Ali was.
And much as I'm a Floyd fan,Locche had as good judgement and control of distance IMO.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Where would you put him all time mate?
> I think he could squeeze the Top 5 but a lot of people seem to forget what a great defensive fighter Ali was.
> And much as I'm a Floyd fan,Locche had as good judgement and control of distance IMO.


After Rigondeaux throttles this prospect with the 100% KO rate in Macau he's a FA. Let him get some god damn fights... You'll never see him strung out against the ropes like that. His control of distance + footwork is better. Let him prove it to you. Not to mention significantly greater P4P power which admittedly does play a large role in thwarting guys from rushing in on him.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Where would you put him all time mate?
> I think he could squeeze the Top 5 but a lot of people seem to forget what a great defensive fighter Ali was.
> And much as I'm a Floyd fan,Locche had as good judgement and control of distance IMO.


It's a shame Nunn caught Kalambay, put it that way.


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## Glove_Game (Feb 5, 2014)

His defense was fine on saturday, that wasn't a problem at all. Maidana had him trapped against the ropes and threw over 800 punches and still missed over 600 of them


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> After Rigondeaux throttles this prospect with the 100% KO rate in Macau he's a FA. Let him get some god damn fights... You'll never see him strung out against the ropes like that. His control of distance + footwork is better. Let him prove it to you. Not to mention significantly greater P4P power which admittedly does play a large role in thwarting guys from rushing in on him.


I don't know why you think I don't have big non-**** love for Rigo.I was on the bandwagon from Casey onwards.
I just worry his age and bad promotion will dent his status unless something doesn't happen soon.
Doesn't that guy in Ireland still own a piece of him as well.
Gamboa and Rigo are turning out to have the same problems Ward's facing when it comes to promoters.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> It's a shame Nunn caught Kalambay, put it that way.


At least Nunn was a special sort of talent in his own right.



PityTheFool said:


> I don't know why you think I don't have big non-**** love for Rigo.I was on the bandwagon from Casey onwards.
> I just worry his age and bad promotion will dent his status unless something doesn't happen soon.
> Doesn't that guy in Ireland still own a piece of him as well.
> Gamboa and Rigo are turning out to have the same problems Ward's facing when it comes to promoters.


I've been quite a bit disengaged recently. According to @Chacal he has only 1 fight left on his Top Rank deal and then he's free of Arum. Gary Hyde is still his manager, but I don't think there are any serious issues between them. I don't really get any sort of scummy vibe from the guy, he's trying to get Rigo lined up. It's always been solely a Bob Arum problem, and Hyde has slammed him publicly in a couple different instances.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> At least Nunn was a special sort of talent in his own right.
> 
> I've been quite a bit disengaged recently. According to @Chacal he has only 1 fight left on his Top Rank deal and then he's free of Arum. Gary Hyde is still his manager, but I don't think there are any serious issues between them. I don't really get any sort of scummy vibe from the guy, he's trying to get Rigo lined up. It's always been solely a Bob Arum problem, and Hyde has slammed him publicly in a couple different instances.


Nunn was an incredible talent. Way more gifted than Sumbu.

Sumbu was technically spot on though. Far better feet than Floyd.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Nunn was an incredible talent. Way more gifted than Sumbu.
> 
> Sumbu was technically spot on though. Far better feet than Floyd.


Sumbu got a horrendous gift against the monster that is Kalule though.
The best that never was.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Sumbu got a horrendous gift against the monster that is Kalule though.
> The best that never was.


Other way round :good

Kalambay was robbed.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Other way round :good
> 
> Kalambay was robbed.


Aw fuck! The monster got an SD didn't he?
I remember Kalule down twice though,and I did think Sumbu won the fight.
But we have to keep the spirit of Ayub alive.:good


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## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

He is one of the very best I have seen but then there are people on here that know a hell of a lot more. Looking at Whitaker and Toney they showcased their defence against a significantly higher level of opposition which is a huge factor. Its okay looking a million dollars if you only fight twice a year against sometimes limited boxers.

As far as ring generalship I'd put Whitaker, V. Klitschko & Hopkins above him. Would have to think of some others. 

Good thread, enjoy reading and learning from some of the people on here.


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## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)

Floyd is an elite on the ropes But Pepp and Loche had defensive footwork on a whole other level. they would hypnotise their opponents with constant fluid shifting of their weight. maintaining distance. NOT inviting them to try batter them on the ropes.






to see a brutal but one dimensional Maidana track him down and rag doll him convinces me


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> Aw fuck! The monster got an SD didn't he?
> I remember Kalule down twice though,and I did think Sumbu won the fight.
> But we have to keep the spirit of Ayub alive.:good


Kalambay got put down twice.

But still did more than enough to win.

Still, he wasn't quite at his best then.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Kalambay got put down twice.
> 
> But still did more than enough to win.
> 
> Still, he wasn't quite at his best then.


Kalambay-McCallum one of the best examples of pure boxing ive ever seen, beautiful movement and jabbing.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> You'll never see him strung out against the ropes like that.


Rigo is have yet to face an elite pressure fighter.

But then again, there are no elite pressure fighters at his weight.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Rigo is have yet to face an elite pressure fighter.
> 
> But then again, there are no elite pressure fighters at his weight.


Meh, Santa Cruz will do.

I stand by my claim that a prime Fenech would barely lose a round against Rigo.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Meh, Santa Cruz will do.


Santa Cruz is a wrapless Margarito impersonating Barrera.



Flea Man said:


> I stand by my claim that a prime Fenech would barely lose a round against Rigo.


Fenech turned the untouchable Payakaroon into ooze.

Of course he would barely lose a round against Rigo.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> Santa Cruz is a wrapless Margarito impersonating Barrera.


Fair.



Lester1583 said:


> Fenech turned the untouchable Payakaroon into ooze.
> 
> Of course he would barely lose a round against Rigo.


I actually think this is completely true.

Noobs will think we're taking the piss (after a quick check of boxrec) but we ain't.....Payakroon Vs Rigo would be a very interesting matchup though.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Kalambay got put down twice.
> 
> But still did more than enough to win.
> 
> Still, he wasn't quite at his best then.


My memory is failing me.Maybe I need to start checking Boxrec a bit more.ops


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

PityTheFool said:


> My memory is failing me.Maybe I need to start checking Boxrec a bit more.ops


Or just watch the fight again........I uploaded it to youtube :good


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## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Or just watch the fight again........I uploaded it to youtube :good


Scope of names has been rather limited surprised guys like Loughren, J.Johnson, B.Leonard, M.Gibbons, Moore, Lora, Laguna, Zapata haven't at least got shouts.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> Scope of names has been rather limited surprised guys like Loughren, J.Johnson, B.Leonard, M.Gibbons, Moore, Lora, Laguna, Zapata haven't at least got shouts.


I would only give shouts to guys there are a lot of fotage of (otherwise Britton would be a given)

Zapata I considered....but then I remembered Ursua. And Chang swarming all over him.

Out of ring issues stopped him being all that consistent.

I'd have Floud above most of those (that we have extensive footage of) based on consistency over a number of weights; Lora was another who allowed drugs to make his reflexes dwindle.

All nice stylish shouts though.

George Benton too :good


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Not even after Saturday night?
> 
> :rofl
> 
> It's so over. :-( You'll never have to mention the likes of Jesus Chavez. Ever Again.


:rofl:rofl:rofl

I love you.


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## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I would only give shouts to guys there are a lot of fotage of (otherwise Britton would be a given)
> 
> Zapata I considered....but then I remembered Ursua. And Chang swarming all over him.
> 
> ...


Loughren doesn't have enough footage for you?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> Loughren doesn't have enough footage for you?


Loughran has enough footage for me to rank his jab and dictating of range very highly.

I wouldn't put his defence on Floyds level, although bossing Walker is more impressive than anything Floyd has done and personally I was more impressed with how he tried to fight against Carnera than I was with Haye Vs SNV.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

As we know guys, whenever Floyd fights out of his comfort zone it's because he CHOOSES to. 







:-(


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## Vysotsky (Jun 6, 2013)

I would love to see him 'choose' to fight outside his comfort zone against Carmen Basilio.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Or just watch the fight again........I uploaded it to youtube :good


Cheers mate.:good


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> I would love to see him 'choose' to fight outside his comfort zone against Carmen Basilio.


Or Carlos Ortiz


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Vysotsky said:


> I would love to see him 'choose' to fight outside his comfort zone against Carmen Basilio.


Gil Turner would be enough, though I've said that for years.

Clear to see that LMR would dominate 'Money' May. Jab, movement, inside fighting, ring IQ and a wide varietyof skills, he would be an absolute nightmare for Floyd.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :rofl:rofl:rofl
> 
> I love you.


:lol:

Chino opened up an entirely new portal for you to run wild and free. Even I admit there was always a "Yeah, but..." involved. He was hurt against Castillo. He assaulted Chavez. He was always in control against Cotto. This was different.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> :lol:
> 
> Chino opened up an entirely new portal for you to run wild and free. Even I admit there was always a "Yeah, but..." involved. He was hurt against Castillo. He assaulted Chavez. He was always in control against Cotto. This was different.


I mean "37" is already a slogan :conf

And man I couldn't help but laugh thinking to myself again while watching, "hide behind the shoulder and hope for the best?!" :rofl Duranimal was probably bellowing.


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## Slugger3000 (May 22, 2013)

Marcos Maidana doesn't seem to care much for Floyds Defense.. After all he just beat the shit out of him! Landed at will in the first 6!


Whitaker, Willie Pep


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## 941jeremy (Jun 12, 2013)

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Paul Williams would have been a nightmare for Floyd. Flo Mos get offended by the thought of a low IQ fighter giving Floyd fits.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

941jeremy said:


> I've said it once and I'll say it again. Paul Williams would have been a nightmare for Floyd. Flo Mos get offended by the thought of a low IQ fighter giving Floyd fits.


:deal
I've always said this, and I think Floyd was smart enough to know that Williams is a stylistic nightmare for him, that's why he avoided him IMO


----------



## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

Its really hard to say with Floyd. Hes never been up against a truly great offensive force. No doubt hes very impressive in each area, amongst the very best ever for both, but we have never seen him tested against a fellow all-time elite type fighter at their best. I mean, even prime De La Hoya (a great fighter, but nowhere near best ever material) would appear to be a very difficult proposition to handle for Floyd defensively.

He is extremely sound in pretty much every way, and hes as consistent and dedicated a boxer as there has ever been. The success that guys like Castillo and Maidana managed on the inside when they got him to the ropes (and, at least compared to someone like Whitaker, how easily he is backed into the ropes) is troubling, but no doubt he can defend and handle himself on the inside just fine as well.

Id probably argue him inside the top 10 of each. He doesnt have the opposition to have any serious claim to #1 for either though.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

the cobra said:


> Its really hard to say with Floyd. Hes never been up against a truly great offensive force. No doubt hes very impressive in each area, amongst the very best ever for both, but we have never seen him tested against a fellow all-time elite type fighter at their best. I mean, even prime De La Hoya (a great fighter, but nowhere near best ever material) would appear to be a very difficult proposition to handle for Floyd defensively.
> 
> He is extremely sound in pretty much every way, and hes as consistent and dedicated a boxer as there has ever been. The success that guys like Castillo and Maidana managed on the inside when they got him to the ropes (and, at least compared to someone like Whitaker, how easily he is backed into the ropes) is troubling, but no doubt he can defend and handle himself on the inside just fine as well.
> 
> Id probably argue him inside the top 10 of each. He doesnt have the opposition to have any serious claim to #1 for either though.


Lovely post that makes me sad you're not around much anymore.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Lovely post that makes me sad you're not around much anymore.


+1


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Vysotsky said:


> I would love to see him 'choose' to fight outside his comfort zone against Carmen Basilio.


Yeah Saxton can fight with CB but Mayweather couldn't :lol:


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I mean "37" is already a slogan :conf
> 
> And man I couldn't help but laugh thinking to myself again while watching, "hide behind the shoulder and hope for the best?!" :rofl Duranimal was probably bellowing.


Welllll 37 is sort of true :smile But Floyd's always been a bit stationary, never the most fluid - or cultured as Flea would say - in terms of defensive footwork. He was cornered last Saturday, he was cornered over ten years ago -- but rarely has he been so smothered as to completely shell up without being able to get counters off for stretches. I'm not sure it's even a debate anymore Re: Duran. He'd back him up through the use of his feints alone, would unload an offensive arsenal on him the likes of which he's never experienced and be hellaciously difficult to hit in return. Not that Floyd's punches could deter him anyway. It wouldn't be anymore pleasant for him at mid-range, and we seriously need to throw out the idea he could ever pull a bullshite No Mas type of performance over on him.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Welllll 37 is sort of true :smile But Floyd's always been a bit stationary, never the most fluid - or cultured as Flea would say - in terms of defensive footwork. He was cornered last Saturday, he was cornered over ten years ago -- but rarely has he been so*smothered as*to completely shell up without being able to get counters off for stretches. I'm not sure it's even a debate anymore Re: Duran. He'd back him up through the use of his feints alone, would unload an offensive arsenal on him the likes of which he's never experienced and be hellaciously difficult to hit in return. Not that Floyd's punches could deter him anyway. It wouldn't be anymore pleasant for him at mid-range, and we seriously need to throw out the idea he could ever pull a bullshite No Mas type of performance over on him.


I've always said that Duran's feints would open Floyd up like no one else.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah Saxton can fight with CB but Mayweather couldn't :lol:


Saxton was class! He fought a lot of better welters than Floyd did......and let's not act like some of his decisions weren't fishy!


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Welllll 37 is sort of true :smile But Floyd's always been a bit stationary, never the most fluid - or cultured as Flea would say - in terms of defensive footwork. He was cornered last Saturday, he was cornered over ten years ago -- but rarely has he been so smothered as to completely shell up without being able to get counters off for stretches. *I'm not sure it's even a debate anymore Re: Duran.* He'd back him up through the use of his feints alone, would unload an offensive arsenal on him the likes of which he's never experienced and be hellaciously difficult to hit in return. Not that Floyd's punches could deter him anyway. It wouldn't be anymore pleasant for him at mid-range, and we seriously need to throw out the idea he could ever pull a bullshite No Mas type of performance over on him.


:clap:

Very well put. As you say, it's not just the fact he got cornered, but what happened once he got there; a vicious mauling. And I always found the assertions Floyd could replicate a "No Mas" merry-go-round display of lateral movement pretty laughable. I can just see Duran's blood-lusting grin as he takes advantage of the open body. Floyd looked like he was quite literally "hoping for the best" at times shelling up in the first half. Shit, it might not even be a debate anymore that fight is even all that _competitive_ like I initially thought.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I've always said that Duran's feints would open Floyd up like no one else.


Edging forward with feints is all Maidana had to do at times to get Floyd from the center to the ropes. Waiting, twitching, pulling back, oh look, I'm cornered.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> I've always said that Duran's feints would open Floyd up like no one else.





Bogotazo said:


> :clap:
> 
> Very well put. As you say, it's not just the fact he got cornered, but what happened once he got there; a vicious mauling. And I always found the assertions Floyd could replicate a "No Mas" merry-go-round display of lateral movement pretty laughable. I can just see Duran's blood-lusting grin as he takes advantage of the open body. Floyd looked like he was quite literally "hoping for the best" at times shelling up in the first half. Shit, it might not even be a debate anymore that fight is even all that _competitive_ like I initially thought.


Sending a toast out to @JMP who was as much part of those old ESB General debates as anyone. :lol: Flea wouldn't ever be bothered with that stuff. Does feel kind of somber though tbh Bogo even though Duran is a higher favorite. It was, without a shadow of a doubt-type confirmation. The sort that would make even the most ardent Flomo put their heads down.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> :clap:
> 
> Very well put. As you say, it's not just the fact he got cornered, but what happened once he got there; a vicious mauling. And I always found the assertions Floyd could replicate a "No Mas" merry-go-round display of lateral movement pretty laughable. I can just see Duran's blood-lusting grin as he takes advantage of the open body. Floyd looked like he was quite literally "hoping for the best" at times shelling up in the first half. Shit, it might not even be a debate anymore that fight is even all that _competitive_ like I initially thought.


Would be Vilomar Fernandez-esque; with Mayweather shipping less punishment


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> :clap:
> 
> Very well put. As you say, it's not just the fact he got cornered, but what happened once he got there; a vicious mauling. And I always found the assertions Floyd could replicate a "No Mas" merry-go-round display of lateral movement pretty laughable. I can just see Duran's blood-lusting grin as he takes advantage of the open body. Floyd looked like he was quite literally "hoping for the best" at times shelling up in the first half. Shit, it might not even be a debate anymore that fight is even all that _competitive_ like I initially thought.


A 37 year old Mayweather clearly on the slip wins a clear UD over an awkward brawler and this makes you certain Duran would easily beat Fliyd prime for prime

Infuckingcredible

Your terrible analysis, inability to predict an outcome of any fight prior to its conclusion, and horrible scorecards make this post laughable


----------



## Slugger3000 (May 22, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> A 37 year old Mayweather clearly on the slip wins a clear UD over an awkward brawler and this makes you certain Duran would easily beat Fliyd prime for prime
> 
> Infuckingcredible
> 
> Your terrible analysis, inability to predict an outcome of any fight prior to its conclusion, and horrible scorecards make this post laughable


1 Judge had it a draw.. It was a razor thin decision. Leave Bogo alone.


----------



## MEXAMELAC (Apr 14, 2014)

Bogotazo said:


> :clap:
> 
> Very well put. As you say, it's not just the fact he got cornered, but what happened once he got there; a vicious mauling. And I always found the assertions Floyd could replicate a "No Mas" merry-go-round display of lateral movement pretty laughable. I can just see Duran's blood-lusting grin as he takes advantage of the open body. Floyd looked like he was quite literally "hoping for the best" at times shelling up in the first half. Shit, it might not even be a debate anymore that fight is even all that _competitive_ like I initially thought.


For "No Mas" to happen again, it would need to be the exact same scenario. And I'm not just talking about what happened it the ring but also everything leading into the fight.

You guys really thought May had a solid chance vs Duran?


----------



## MEXAMELAC (Apr 14, 2014)

Hands of Iron said:


> Sending a toast out to @*JMP* who was as much part of those old ESB General debates as anyone. :lol: Flea wouldn't ever be bothered with that stuff. Does feel kind of somber though tbh Bogo even though Duran is a higher favorite. It was, without a shadow of a doubt-type confirmation. The sort that would make even the most ardent Flomo put their heads down.


That's brutal...


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

That goes for everyone posting in this thread as well


None of you have ever made a sensible prediction pre-fight of a recent fight but we are aupposed to take your historical analysis seriously

Floyd has dominated every fighter he has made an easy time of every fighter from age 17-37 bar Castillo 1 where we have confirmation he was injured with no mention of course of the second fight where he literally cruised to a decision. 

But after one fight where he was roughed up by an awkward guy with an 80% ko percentage where he wasnt even really hit clean he is only top 10 in defensive capabilities


What a joke


Tell you what, predict Lara vs Canelo the next big fight on the horizon with any sort of accuracy, and i might begin to take your meaningless trite opiniona seriously


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> A 37 year old Mayweather clearly on the slip wins a clear UD over an awkward brawler and this makes you certain Duran would easily beat Fliyd prime for prime
> 
> Infuckingcredible
> 
> Your terrible analysis, inability to predict an outcome of any fight prior to its conclusion, and horrible scorecards make this post laughable


Don't you think Duran is a brawler?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Glove_Game said:


> His defense was fine on saturday, that wasn't a problem at all. Maidana had him trapped against the ropes and threw over 800 punches and still missed over 600 of them


Exactly. Floyds defense was spectacular as always. It was his offense that wasnt sharp. No surprise this post got lost in the circle jerk. Maidana landed 20% of his punches.

Not surprised that this post got lost in the circle jerk that chb self-proclaimed boxing afficianados

Neither of which could tell you with any accuracy the winner if a future fight if their lives depended on it.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Don't you think Duran is a brawler?


No he's not and his style is not even remotely similar to Maidanas.

But again another point as to why everything you and the rest of the reach around brigade say is laughable

Bunch of Bert Sugars on here.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> No he's not and his style is not even remotely similar to Maidanas.
> 
> But again another point as to why everything you and the rest of the reach around brigade say is laughable
> 
> Bunch of Bert Sugars on here.


Not taking the piss, but Sugar has nothing on me. Not just because he's dead either.

You are a fan of Floyd, not of boxing.


----------



## Wickio (Jun 3, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Not taking the piss, but Sugar has nothing on me. Not just because he's dead either.
> 
> You are a fan of Floyd, not of boxing.


And Andre Dirrell.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Not taking the piss, but Sugar has nothing on me. Not just because he's dead either.
> 
> You are a fan of Floyd, not of boxing.


Thats rich considering im probably more excited for Lara vs Canelo than youve probably been for a fight since Mike Tyson was no longer relevant am i correct?

You Bert Sugar types pretty much stopped following boxing after Mike Tyson after all

Ive probably been on ESB/CHB longer than all of you.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Thats rich considering im probably more excited for Lara vs Canelo than youve probably been for a fight since Mike Tyson was no longer relevant am i correct?
> 
> You Bert Sugar types pretty much stopped following boxing after Mike Tyson after all
> 
> Ive probably been on ESB/CHB longer than all of you.


How old do you think I am? :lol:


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Wickio said:


> And Andre Dirrell.


Oh, dear.

Apparently skirting well outside of punching range is 'pure boxing' to some people.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

Look at the Flomo's crying because Maidana proved without question that Duran would beat Floyd easily. Castillo and ODLH already proved it for me tbh.

Floyd never has had the feet to keep Duran at bay. Floyd doesnt have the footwork to no mas fat Duran like SRL did you silly flomo's. It would take Willie Pep style foot movement to do that. Pea's the only slickster that could have beat prime lightweight Duran with his tricky footwork weird upper body movement and the ability/balls to combo punch and fight on the inside. Unlike Floyd who shells up, punches like a girl and only wrestle on the inside with the odd safe pot shot.
The mans hard to hit, accurate, economical and teak tough, but he's not a warrior.
TBE my arse.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

rossco said:


> Look at the Flomo's crying because Maidana proved without question that Duran would beat Floyd easily. Castillo and ODLH already proved it for me tbh.
> 
> Floyd never has had the feet to keep Duran at bay. Floyd doesnt have the footwork to no mas fat Duran like SRL did you silly flomo's. It would take Willie Pep style foot movement to do that. Pea's the only slickster that could have beat prime lightweight Duran with his tricky footwork weird upper body movement and the ability/balls to combo punch and fight on the inside. Unlike Floyd who shells up, punches like a girl and only wrestle on the inside with the odd safe pot shot.
> The mans hard to hit, accurate, economical and teak tough, but he's not a warrior.
> TBE my arse.


A lightweight Floyd punched like a girl?

Im supposed to take this sort of ilk seriously?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Oh, dear.
> 
> Apparently skirting well outside of punching range is 'pure boxing' to some people.


Youre right. Dirrell was certainly unskilled.


----------



## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

Danny said:


> Contrast how often an old Whitaker was hit by a young DLH to a prime Mayweather and how often he was hit by an old DLH.
> 
> Floyd is over-rated defensively and under-rated offensively. There I said it.


great point


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Youre right. Dirrell was certainly unskilled.


Is that what I said?

Anyway, again, do you think I am an old guy? Is that the ONLY reason I might not rate Floyd as highly as you do.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> A lightweight Floyd punched like a girl?
> 
> Im supposed to take this sort of ilk seriously?


Floyd punched a bit harder than your average girl at the lower weights. I would say he possessed Butch **** level power at lightweight.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Duran, chavez, and pryor would beat floyd prime for prime for sure imo. Perfect style to beat floyd with


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Duran, chavez, and pryor would beat floyd prime for prime for sure imo. Perfect style to beat floyd with


No shame in losing to these three though.

Duran probably has the best style of three to combat Floyd because Floyd is relatively easy to feint and feint was Duran his second name.
Against Chavez Floyd probably fights extremely negative which is his only chance really, Chavez is also pretty small so there's a chance at welterweight that Floyd can neutralize his with clinching but depends on the ref really. (I know you don't like clinching but if the ref allows it I think there's a chance Floyd might get a razor thin decision with negative tactics.)
Floyd would never fight Pryor because cleaning up the sport and magic bottle/ped usage etc. that kind of bullshit.

Their primes were all in higher weightclasses than Floyd his prime though


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

I don't see why Floyd isn't in his prime as a welter. Plenty of lightweights have been brilliant welters in their primes.

Floyd has been brilliant from 130-147.

Floyd beats JCC at 147, no doubt in my mind.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

At 130 Floyd was much more offensively talented than at the higher weights.
While he learned a lot of tricks and got more technical his power and also his very long reach were much more gamechanging at 130 than the weights above.


His power is still respectable but he's not getting legit KOs anymore


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)




----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


>


Can't think of a worse match up for Floyd than Tommy Hearns.
I give Floyd literally zero chance.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tezel8764 said:


>


So would Floyd if he fought Hearns.

EDIT: Either way, Floyd has never even fought anyone approaching Hearns or Leonard in terms of ability.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

dyna said:


> Can't think of a worse match up for Floyd than Tommy Hearns.
> I give Floyd literally zero chance.


Floyd has that super impossible chance to spark Hearns with a punch that no one could ever predict.

No one reasonable would give him any chance of winning. He'd get his head jabbed off, and the way he stands he'd get blasted just as Duran did.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)




----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


>


:lol:

I must admit, this one is funny as fuck.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tezel8764 said:


>


Again, we cannot even say Floyd has proven he'd do any better.


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

@Flea Man All jokes aside mate, what in your opinion should Mayweather do against Maidana in a potential rematch?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> No shame in losing to these three though.
> 
> Duran probably has the best style of three to combat Floyd because Floyd is relatively easy to feint and feint was Duran his second name.
> Against Chavez Floyd probably fights extremely negative which is his only chance really, Chavez is also pretty small so there's a chance at welterweight that Floyd can neutralize his with clinching but depends on the ref really. (I know you don't like clinching but if the ref allows it I think there's a chance Floyd might get a razor thin decision with negative tactics.)
> ...


Floyd was at his physical peak at 140. Pryor wouldnt know what hit him.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

An uninjured Floyd Mayweather

Learn ya something


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

tezel8764 said:


> @Flea Man All jokes aside mate, what in your opinion should Mayweather do against Maidana in a potential rematch?


The same. I thought he won. Always gonna' be a grinder against someone like Maidana.


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Floyd was at his physical peak at 140. Pryor wouldnt know what hit him.


Yeah, Pryor would get treated like Bruseles, Ndou and Gatti :lol:


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, Pryor would get treated like Bruseles, Ndou and Gatti :lol:


Stop. Pryor needed that A-side to beat a blown up super featherweight


----------



## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

Flea Man said:


> Yeah, Pryor would get treated like Bruseles, Ndou and Gatti :lol:




Sent from my GT-S5570 using Tapatalk 2


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Stop. Pryor needed that A-side to beat a blown up super featherweight


And Floyd is also a blown up superfeatherweight


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Stop. Pryor needed that A-side to beat a blown up super featherweight


Pryor was a lightweight who went to 140 only because he couldn't get a title shot at 135.

Arguello a blown up super feather? The lightweight champ, always tall for 126/130, who went on to starch the very good Costello (former 140lb titlist) post-Pryor II?

Keep moving the goalposts kiddo.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Saxton was class! He fought a lot of better welters than Floyd did......and let's not act like some of his decisions weren't fishy!


Yeah Saxton was really good. Is there footage of the Gavilan fight? I've read it was kinda conroversial


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

turbotime said:


> Yeah Saxton was really good. Is there footage of the Gavilan fight? I've read it was kinda conroversial


I uploaded the whole fight to my channel mate....abysmal contest but interesting to watch.

Watch Saxton scrap with Gil Turner on my channel too!


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> And Floyd is also a blown up superfeatherweight


Floyd was a monster at 140. As complete a fighter as you can get

You youngins dont remember that floyd, since younonly started caring about him around the DLH fight but there was a reason he was p4p number 1 over Roy


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Floyd was a monster at 140. As complete a fighter as you can get
> 
> You youngins dont remember that floyd, since younonly started caring about him around the DLH fight but there was a reason he was p4p number 1 over Roy


:rofl


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I don't see why Floyd isn't in his prime as a welter. Plenty of lightweights have been brilliant welters in their primes.
> 
> Floyd has been brilliant from 130-147.
> 
> Floyd beats JCC at 147, no doubt in my mind.


Chavez beats him at 140.


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

tezel8764 said:


>


Do you not think the same would happen to Floyd?


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I uploaded the whole fight to my channel mate....abysmal contest but interesting to watch.
> 
> Watch Saxton scrap with Gil Turner on my channel too!


:happy Always interested in Saxton's bouts.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Chavez beats him at 140.


:rofl


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> An uninjured Floyd Mayweather
> 
> Learn ya something


Wow, look at Floyd box and run vs this ATG fighter. JLC a true great, top tier easily... It truly amazes me how Floyd makes these truly great fighters with A class skills look so average.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

rossco said:


> Wow, look at Floyd box and run vs this ATG fighter. JLC a true great, top tier easily... It truly amazes me how Floyd makes these truly great fighters with A class skills look so average.


Made the greatest lightweight of his generation yield mentally at 24 years old

Thats running btw? Stop watching boxing. Thats art


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> the greatest lightweight of his generation


:rofl


----------



## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Made the greatest lightweight of his generation yield mentally at 24 years old
> 
> Thats running btw? Stop watching boxing. Thats art


Feats of like have never been seen before or since.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> :rofl


Whos better. Again this modern boxing not your area


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

rossco said:


> Feats of like have never been seen before or since.


Not often


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> A 37 year old Mayweather clearly on the slip wins a clear UD over an awkward brawler and this makes you certain Duran would easily beat Fliyd prime for prime
> 
> Infuckingcredible
> 
> Your terrible analysis, inability to predict an outcome of any fight prior to its conclusion, and horrible scorecards make this post laughable


I've been on a pretty decent prediction run recently actually. It always makes me laugh when YOU criticize other people for poor predictions :lol:

You're a 1-trick pony: Floyd is God, and any evidence to the contrary can be explained away by fanboyish excuses.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I've been on a pretty decent prediction run recently actually. It always makes me laugh when YOU criticize other people for poor predictions :lol:
> 
> You're a 1-trick pony: Floyd is God, and any evidence to the contrary can be explained away by fanboyish excuses.


Like how i predicted Canelo to obliterate Angulo and you picked Angulo :lol::rofl

An obvious stylistic mismatch of i ever saw one

Oh wise boxing sage. Jesus


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## Doc (Jun 6, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Like how i predicted Canelo to obliterate Angulo and you picked Angulo :lol::rofl
> 
> An obvious stylistic mismatch of i ever saw one
> 
> Oh wise boxing sage. Jesus


I think that was more of going by his heart since Bogotazo doesn't really like canelo so he likely wanted to see him lose and was mainly focused on seeing what is wrong with Canelo in the match and not what is right.. Like over analyzing a fighters defects ignoring the positives that would negate the defects in that style.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Like how i predicted Canelo to obliterate Angulo and you picked Angulo :lol::rofl
> 
> An obvious stylistic mismatch of i ever saw one
> 
> Oh wise boxing sage. Jesus


Cuz you've never gotten even one prediction wrong eh?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Whos better. Again this modern boxing not your area


Castillo was rhe best at that time after beating Stevie.

But you made it out like he's an era defining ATG lightweight.

Hardly comparable to Laguna boxing Ortiz's head off.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Not often


Absolute bullshit :lol:


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## the cobra (Jun 6, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Lovely post that makes me sad you're not around much anymore.





> Originally posted by *Bogotazo*
> +1


:lol: It was a mediocre post just rehashing stuff that I and several others (like you two) have been saying for years. Still, thanks for the kind words. I promise that Im making a very gradual comeback, gents. Promise.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> :rofl


what the fuck is so funny.


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## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> what the fuck is so funny.


I thought you were being funny.

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I thought you were being funny.
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Nah chavez is a H2H monster at 140, he's got the ideal style to give mayweather hell. I'm not the only one that shares that opinion either


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Castillo was rhe best at that time after beating Stevie.
> 
> But you made it out like he's an era defining ATG lightweight.
> 
> Hardly comparable to Laguna boxing Ortiz's head off.


False. I said greatest lifhtweight of his generation and id argue best since Mosley and better than any since


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

turbotime said:


> I thought you were being funny.
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Lmao


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

the cobra said:


> :lol: It was a mediocre post just rehashing stuff that I and several others (like you two) have been saying for years. Still, thanks for the kind words. I promise that Im making a very gradual comeback, gents. Promise.


:happy


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> False. I said greatest lifhtweight of his generation and id argue best since Mosley and better than any since


I agree.

Because it's been a very weak era.

And that's why Floyd dominating it isn't all that impressive.

And for the record, I'm younger than you.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I agree.
> 
> Because it's been a very weak era.
> 
> ...


You consider Casamayor, Floyd, Corrales, Frietas, Johnston weak? Compared to when? Roger Mayweather and Rocky Lockridge lol?


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## rossco (Jun 9, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Not often


Not often in this poor era, yes I agree. The sport is ancient and rich with great fighters and great performances from greater era's. There's plenty fights far greater than Floyd/Castillo 2 ffs. You could write a book the size of an Ikea catalogue on fights greater than that.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> You consider Casamayor, Floyd, Corrales, Frietas, Johnston weak? Compared to when? Roger Mayweather and Rocky Lockridge lol?


Lockridge and Rog primarily known for being super featherweights.

Again, you know absolutely nothing about boxing so just stop trying little one.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

rossco said:


> Not often in this poor era, yes I agree. The sport is ancient and rich with great fighters and great performances from greater era's. There's plenty fights far greater than Floyd/Castillo 2 ffs. You could write a book the size of an Ikea catalogue on fights greater than that.


Agree 100%.


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## Michael (Jun 8, 2012)

The lat 90's/early 2000's lightweight era was actually fairly solid. Plenty of good fights and good fighters, and Floyd was head an shoulders above them all. Its just a pity that he didn't fight the likes of Casamayor, Johnston, Spadafora. The Corrales fight, while a great win, would have been even better had it been at 135, because chico had been struggling with making 135 massively around the time their fight and definitely took something away from him. There was some solid scalps around those weights that he never claimed that could have given his legacy a good boost. Floyd probably hung around at 130 for too long fighting average opponents. Mosley circa 98/99, when there was rumors of a possible showdown would have been boss to.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Lockridge and Rog primarily known for being super featherweights.
> 
> Again, you know absolutely nothing about boxing so just stop trying little one.


So are Frietas, Mayweather, Casamayor and Corrales, but youll get it sooner or later.

But go on name some stronger eras. Should be interesting. Try to limit it to the last 30 years though.

Btw im from michigan, boxing is in the blood here. How many national golden gloves have you attended? How many Olympians and National Amateur champions do you know personally?


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> So would Floyd if he fought Hearns.
> 
> EDIT: Either way, Floyd has never even fought anyone approaching Hearns or Leonard in terms of ability.


This maybe a shot in the dark but does Deontay Wilder have the same sort of power like Hearns?


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Michael said:


> The lat 90's/early 2000's lightweight era was actually fairly solid. Plenty of good fights and good fighters, and Floyd was head an shoulders above them all. Its just a pity that he didn't fight the likes of Casamayor, Johnston, Spadafora. The Corrales fight, while a great win, would have been even better had it been at 135, because chico had been struggling with making 135 massively around the time their fight and definitely took something away from him. There was some solid scalps around those weights that he never claimed that could have given his legacy a good boost. Floyd probably hung around at 130 for too long fighting average opponents. Mosley circa 98/99, when there was rumors of a possible showdown would have been boss to.


Agreed. Heavily underrated era. The average guys of that era were Jesus Chavez, Juan Lazcano, and Julio Diaz. Says it all

Wasnt one of Mayweathers major hangups with fighting Mosley was that Mosley priced Floyd out for a showdown in 99? 10 mil was it?

Corrales came back and beat Casa for the super featherweight title out of jail 2 years later. Making weight was probably more personal than physiological


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I think people look in way too much on whatever the last fight they saw.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> So are Frietas, Mayweather, Casamayor and Corrales, but youll get it sooner or later.
> 
> But go on name some stronger eras. Should be interesting. Try to limit it to the last 30 years though.


I know they are, hence why you mentioning them as part of a 'underrated' lightweight era is preposterous.

Why try and limit it to the last 30 years? Is that the extent of your knowledge.

Moving the goalposts again.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> I know they are, hence why you mentioning them as part of a 'underrated' lightweight era is preposterous.
> 
> Why try and limit it to the last 30 years? Is that the extent of your knowledge.
> 
> Moving the goalposts again.


So a weak era of lightweights yet you can name a stronger one in 30 years

Hilarious

Sorry, ill let you get back to your circle jerk


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> So a weak era of lightweights yet you can name a stronger one in 30 years
> 
> Hilarious
> 
> Sorry, ill let you get back to your circle jerk


No better than Ramirez, Rosario, Chavez, Whitaker, Haugen, Jones etc etc


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