# Has Wladimir Klitschko done enough to be a top 10 Heavyweight ATG?



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Has he?


----------



## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

This thread should be unanimous.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

My List:

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Evander Holyfield
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson


----------



## larryx (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> My List:
> 
> Muhammad Ali
> Joe Louis
> ...


what about Tunney and Dempsey?i wouldnt have Tyson or Liston in the top 10..

Ali
Louis
Tunney
Holmes
Lewis
Dempsey
Frazier
Marciano
Holyfield
Foreman

top 10 in no particular order

so naw i cant rank Wlad over any of these guys


----------



## Duffy (Jun 13, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> My List:
> 
> Muhammad Ali
> Joe Louis
> ...


He has a serious shot of knocking Tyson and Liston of that list and there's not much of an argument to be made against it.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

The Klitschkos are the greatest heavyweights of all time. They would dominate any era.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

The Klitschkos are criminally underrated by jealous bitter butthurt americans, brits, racists, etc


----------



## larryx (Jun 5, 2013)

Slava said:


> The Klitschkos are the greatest heavyweights of all time. They would dominate any era.





Slava said:


> The Klitschkos are criminally underrated by jealous bitter butthurt americans, brits, racists, etc


dont ruin this site with this troll crap


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

larryx said:


> dont ruin this site with this troll crap


If the Klitschkos were black, you would acknowledge that they're the greatest heavyweights of all time.


----------



## Oneshot (Jun 6, 2013)

Slava said:


> The Klitschkos are criminally underrated by jealous bitter butthurt americans, brits, racists, etc


Wow are you that *** from that asylum shit hole, even the Golovkin hugging scum bags on there think you are racist.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

Klitschko Brothers - Unforgivable Whiteness


----------



## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

larryx said:


> what about Tunney and Dempsey?i wouldnt have Tyson or Liston in the top 10..
> 
> Ali
> Louis
> ...


What _about_ Tunney and Dempsey? Gene had very few fights at the weight, contesting the vast majority of his bouts at light-heavyweight, whilst Dempsey is horrifically overrated on these lists. Ducked his #1 challenger for years, fought plenty of smaller fighters, and overall didn't compile a resume worthy of a top ten all-time distinction at the weight. His legend has become shockingly overstated, to me.


----------



## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

Slava said:


> If the Klitschkos were black, you would acknowledge that they're the greatest heavyweights of all time.


:lol: No, we fucking wouldn't. This racial nonsense needs to be fucked off the site pronto IMO.


----------



## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

In no particular order

Max Schemeling
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Rockey Marciano
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Muhammad Ali
Joe Fraizer
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis

Those are heavyweights off the top of my head better than Wlad
I'm sure if I actually dug deep I would think of more


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

Sweethome_Bama said:


> In no particular order
> 
> Max Schemeling
> Jack Dempsey
> ...


says the jealous bitter butthurt racist Klitschko hater.


----------



## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

Slava said:


> says the jealous bitter butthurt racist Klitschko hater.


Jealous of what?


----------



## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

As for the thread's question; no, I would not consider Wladimir Klitschko a top ten all-time heavyweight. Ravaged by so-so fighters and an unimpressive win column. He gets by via incredible dominance and consistency over decent-to-good contenders. Byrd, Haye, Chagaev and Povetkin will be his best opponents provided he secures the victory over Alexander, by far. 

He's getting closer, though.


----------



## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

Do we put the Klits as a unit, since they like to tag team opponents?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

I used to be a huge Klitschko fan but because of posters like Slava I had to stop supporting them. I am a man of integrity,honor, and just cause. I can not support boxers who's fan base consist of Neo-Nazis and butt hurt racists.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

If Wladimir beat Povetkin and a fighter the caliber of Pulev/Jennings I will put him in the top 10. The issue is I think he will get ktfo for a 4th time and than retire. The Glass has been on a decline, the only reason you can't see it is because he is fighting cancer victims, retards, and 40 year old men.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

Wladimir Klitschko

- WBA/IBF/IBO/WBO/RING heavyweight champion of the world

- he is arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time

- 1st ballot hall of famer

- olympic gold medalist

- 60 wins

- 52 knockouts

- 21 title defenses

- 14 consecutive title defenses

- undefeated in his prime

- 2nd longest reigning world heavyweight champion

- longest world championship reign in history without getting knocked down

- has defeated 11 world champions

- has defeated 10 undefeated fighters

- has defeated the most olympic medalists in heavyweight history

- has defeated the most Top 10 fighters in heavyweight history 

- he is statistically the 2nd most dominant fighter of all time (Vitali Klitschko is the most dominant fighter of all time)


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

All of the ridiculously overrated American champs of the past should have asterisks next to their names because they were really only local champs, not world champs. They never competed against Eastern Europeans, Cubans, Africans, etc in the pros. The Klitschkos have dominated and cleaned out a global heavyweight division. All of the best heavyweights from America, Britain, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Africa, etc have been defeated by the Klitschkos. The Klitschkos are real world champs, unlike those disgustingly overrated overhyped American local champ frauds of the past.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

orriray59 said:


> As for the thread's question; no, I would not consider Wladimir Klitschko a top ten all-time heavyweight. Ravaged by so-so fighters and an unimpressive win column. He gets by via incredible dominance and consistency over decent-to-good contenders. Byrd, Haye, Chagaev and Povetkin will be his best opponents provided he secures the victory over Alexander, by far.
> 
> He's getting closer, though.


Would you put Wlad in if he gets past Povetkin?


----------



## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

Eoghan said:


> Would you put Wlad in if he gets past Povetkin?


I'd have to think about it to be honest; probably not. I could think up ten names at the moment which I'd rate above him, not sure he'd leap over one of 'em by beating Povetkin. Maybe he would.

:conf


----------



## JohnH (May 22, 2013)

Mike Tyson
Ali
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Wladimir Klitschko
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

I really like the Klitschkos, I will be forever grateful to Wlad for beating David Haye, I would have him ahead of Marciano, Patterson and Liston, maybe ahead of Tyson if longevity comes into it, and just below Dempsey and Foreman, not sure if I would have him in my top 10, maybe he could sneak in if he beats Povetkin, but for example, wins like Tony Thompson are aging quite well for me- look what a fat version of him did to David Price. But the mere fact that we are having a real conversation about it is encouraging for Wlad as he is more likely to be received better when he retires, assuming he does well in his remaining fights
Ali
Lewis
Louis
Holmes
Holyfield
Tunney
Foreman
Frazier
Dempsey
Johnson


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Slava said:


> All of the ridiculously overrated American champs of the past should have asterisks next to their names because they were really only local champs, not world champs. They never competed against Eastern Europeans, Cubans, Africans, etc in the pros. The Klitschkos have dominated and cleaned out a global heavyweight division. All of the best heavyweights from America, Britain, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Africa, etc have been defeated by the Klitschkos. The Klitschkos are real world champs, unlike those disgustingly overrated overhyped American local champ frauds of the past.


Lennox Lewis has actually beaten more fighters from more Countries than the Klitschkos.

Lewis has beaten fighters from 13 Countries.
Wladimir has beaten fighters from 11 Countries.
Vitali has beaten fighters from 10 Countries.

So technically, Lewis is the only 'real' World Champ.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Slava said:


> Wladimir Klitschko
> 
> - WBA/IBF/IBO/WBO/RING heavyweight champion of the world
> 
> ...


He was also beaten up by Purrity,Brewster,and Sanders.

Damn come up with some new material you stupid retarded ******.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

YES.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

'Slava' is the best example of what a Klitschko fan is. If you are 'down' with the Klitschkos you are basically 'down' with Slava and his view points. It is what it is. It's fact.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Lennox Lewis has actually beaten more fighters from more Countries than the Klitschkos.
> 
> Lewis has beaten fighters from 13 Countries.
> Wladimir has beaten fighters from 11 Countries.
> Vitali has beaten fighters from 10 Countries.


*LIAR*

Wlad has beaten fighters from 20 countries.

Vitali has beaten fighters from 15 countries.

Lewis has beaten fighters from 11 countries.


----------



## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

Hes #4 ATG already. If he beats Tyson Fury then hes #3.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> He was also beaten up by Purrity,Brewster,and Sanders.


That's irrelevant ancient history.

Sanders is the hardest hitting southpaw of all time. Vitali and Rahman said Sanders hit harder than Lewis. Sanders got a lucky fluke against a green, young, cocky, underprepared worst version of Wlad who totally underestimated Sanders. Wlad tried to get a rematch, Sanders turned it down, vacated the WBO belt and fought Vitali instead for the RING and WBC undisputed heavyweight championship of the world. Vitali destroyed Sanders.

The Purrity fight was 16 years ago. Wlad was green, only weighed 220 lbs and had never gone past 6 rounds, he beat the shit out of Purrity for 10 rounds, but he punched himself out and ran out of gas...Purrity didn't beat Wlad...Wlad beat himself...Vitali destroyed Purrity.

Brewster didn't do shit, he was getting destroyed in the first fight, he's lucky Wlad was poisoned.

Wlad destroyed Brewster and made him quit in the rematch.


----------



## Oneshot (Jun 6, 2013)

Slava has said on Asylum he doesn't like blacks, this guy got exposed as alt having Canadian.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)




----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Slava said:


> That's irrelevant ancient history.
> 
> Sanders is the hardest hitting southpaw of all time. Vitali and Rahman said Sanders hit harder than Lewis. Sanders got a lucky fluke win against a green, young, cocky, underprepared worst version of Wlad who totally underestimated Sanders. Wlad tried to get a rematch, Sanders turned it down, vacated the WBO belt and fought Vitali instead for the RING and WBC undisputed heavyweight championship of the world. Vitali destroyed Sanders.
> 
> ...


Both Wlad and Vitali blatantly ducked rematches you fucking inbred scum ***.

The stories don't add up and any non Klittard KNOW IT.

Wait let me get this straight ******.

Wait you ready?

So Chris Byrd who beat Vitali, was too scared to rematch Vitali BUT was not scared to fight Wladimir.(Someone who stylistically was a nightmare for Byrd)

So Corrie Sanders who DOMINATED Wladimir for every single second of that fight and fucking Hulk SMASHED Wlad's glass chin was too scared to rematch Wladimir BUT was not scared to fight his older brother(Someone who stylistically was a nightmare for Sanders)

Also it's highly suspicious how Wladimir was unable to even hurt Brewster.... in the 1st fight and was able to hurt him in the 2nd fight. Things didn't add up. Brewster didn't land a lucky punch against Wlad.. he literally walked Wlad down. How was Wlad able to hurt Brewster in the 2nd fight but not in the 1st?
Oh wait I know. Brewster was half blind in the 2nd fight.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Corrie Sanders said beating up Wlad was the easiest thing he ever did. Easier than playing golf or eating steaks.
It was funny as hell how Wlado went down from the air of Sander's left hand twice and had to be carried out on a stretcher.

Wladimir had to totally re invite his style into a jab/grab/pussy hug strategy to avoid getting ktfo again. His fight against Sultan was the most disgraceful title fight in HW History. That was the fight that killed Burt Sugar.


----------



## MrBiggerthan (Jun 4, 2013)

Wladimir is number 1 greatest of all time. There is not much of a case for any of those fighters listed to have a shot at beating him other than Lennox Lewis.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Both Wlad and Vitali blatantly ducked rematches you fucking inbred scum ***.
> 
> The stories don't add up and any non Klittard KNOW IT.
> 
> ...


Retarded post.

If I got a dime for every time you said something stupid, I'd be a billionaire.

The Klitschkos never ducked anyone.

Brewster was knocked down twice and badly hurt several times in the first fight you moron. He wasn't "half blind" in the rematch. In the interviews before and after the fight Brewster repeatedly said his eye was fine after the successful surgery. He gave Wlad full credit for destroying him.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Corrie Sanders said beating up Wlad was the easiest thing he ever did. Easier than playing golf or eating steaks.
> It was funny as hell how Wlado went down from the air of Sander's left hand twice and had to be carried out on a stretcher.
> 
> Wladimir had to totally re invite his style into a jab/grab/pussy hug strategy to avoid getting ktfo again. His fight against Sultan was the most disgraceful title fight in HW History. That was the fight that killed Burt Sugar.


More retarded nonsense.

Get a life you pathetic troll.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Slava said:


> Retarded post.
> 
> If I got a dime for every time you said something stupid, I'd be a billionaire.
> 
> ...


Shut your mouth. Why did Wlad refuse to rematch Sanders? Don't act like Sanders was scared.. if he was scared he won't have fought Vitali. Answer that.

So you saying a even OLDER and fatter Sanders end up picking Vitali instead of Wlad.. because he was 'scared' to give The Glass a rematch? If Sanders was scared he would have fought John Ruiz or something. He won't have picked Vitali.

So why did Wlad refuse to go after Sanders?

Wasn't The Glass also put on his ass by TOS Williamson?


----------



## cachibatches (Jun 4, 2013)

He will be remembered as top ten but not until he retires. Those early loses still loom large. They won't mean as much because he won't have the back end losses and will retire with a terrific record.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

There was a time when I'd have said yes. His stats are incredible and his career turnaround is legen - wait it - dary.

However I'm now more of a fluid dynamic thinker when it comes to boxing so I rank on how good it think a fighter is, and whilst wlad has looked brilliant these last 7 years, i can't help but notice the lack pressure fighters on his resume. Brewster knocked him out and Peter came close to doing so as well and that leads me to conclude the level of fighters who can beat wlad into submission lie between those two.

Now i will happily agree there haven't been many pressure fighters around but arreola, solis and povetkin know how to bring it with volume. I'm honestly not arsed about the reasons the fights didn't come off,what I'm bothered about is that wlad has yet to show me he could handle that style.

The fight with povetkin will answer some questions.

But until those are answered he sits outside my top ten. It's why sometimes it's just better to wait for a guy to retire before establishing his worth.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Luf said:


> There was a time when I'd have said yes. His stats are incredible and his career turnaround is legen - wair wait it - dary.
> 
> However I'm now more of a fluid dynamic thinker when it comes to boxing so I rank on how good it think a fighter is, and whilst wlad has looked brilliant these last 7 years, i can't help but notice the lack pressure fighters on his resume. Brewster knocked him out and Peter came close to doing so as well and that leads me to conclude the level of fighters who can beat wlad into submission lie between those two.
> 
> ...


 Spot on. The fact he never avenged his defeats when he COULD have attempted to is also a dark stain on his legacy.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Spot on. The fact he never avenged his defeats when he COULD have attempted to is also a dark stain on his legacy.


I'm surprised he never tried to rematch purrity because with better stamina he'd have shut him out.

Sanders beat wlad so emphatically there wasn't much need for a rematch and Corrie rightly went after big brother so wlad didn't really have a say in that one.

He did rematch Brewster but a version that had declined significantly since the first fight.

It's not so much the lack of rematches that bother me, the only one he had any real control over was purrity and it's not like that victory would make a huge difference to me. It's more that he hasn't emphatically beaten a guy who can pressure him and take him into deep waters. Not through dominance, he just hasn't faced anyone that fits that bill.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Luf said:


> I'm surprised he never tried to rematch purrity because with better stamina he'd have shut him out.
> 
> Sanders beat wlad so emphatically there wasn't much need for a rematch and Corrie rightly went after big brother so wlad didn't really have a say in that one.
> 
> ...


And that needs to be taken into account. Could the 2002-2006 version of Wladimir survive the 90's punchers? Forget Lewis (who would KO any version of Wlad) forget Bowe, forget Tyson. Can 2002-2006 Wladimir even survive Ike or Tua? Forget Ike and Tua,what about a tier lower in Bruno or Morrison? The 90's was filled with so many big punchers that I don't think Wlad could have had a career resurgence during that time. He is a product of his era. (A era lacking in big punchers outside of Slow Slam and Toe Haye)
The guys that I want to see him against are:
Pulev
Jennings
Fury
Wilder
Not one of the four are elite, but all four bring something unique to the table.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Slava said:


> That's irrelevant ancient history.
> 
> Sanders is the hardest hitting southpaw of all time. Vitali and Rahman said Sanders hit harder than Lewis. Sanders got a lucky fluke against a green, young, cocky, underprepared worst version of Wlad who totally underestimated Sanders. Wlad tried to get a rematch, Sanders turned it down, vacated the WBO belt and fought Vitali instead for the RING and WBC undisputed heavyweight championship of the world. Vitali destroyed Sanders.
> 
> ...


No such thing as a lucky punch!


----------



## Elliot (Jun 4, 2013)

The guy bigging up the Klitschko's in this thread is pretty damn bias.

However I wouldn't bother rating him intill his career is over, and his ranking will likely increase for up to 20 years after it has. Overall I think Wlad will make 10-15 on the heavyweight scale because of how long his reign is, how comfortably he wins (granted shit era) and I expect him to fight some guys hand out first losses and for those guys to go on and dominate HW for a while thus improving the view of his resume.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> And that needs to be taken into account. Could the 2002-2006 version of Wladimir survive the 90's punchers? Forget Lewis (who would KO any version of Wlad) forget Bowe, forget Tyson. Can 2002-2006 Wladimir even survive Ike or Tua? Forget Ike and Tua,what about a tier lower in Bruno or Morrison? The 90's was filled with so many big punchers that I don't think Wlad could have had a career resurgence during that time. He is a product of his era. (A era lacking in big punchers outside of Slow Slam and Toe Haye)
> The guys that I want to see him against are:
> Pulev
> Jennings
> ...


Shut the fuck up with your delusional hypothetical fantasy bullshit.

Wlad beats all of them.

Wlad dominates your hero Lewis like Vitali did and knocks him out like Miroshnichenko, McCall and Rahman did.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

Prime Wlad is unbeatable. He is undefeated in his prime. During his world championship reign, he has won 5 world titles, has made 14 dominant title defenses and hasn't clearly lost a round. Amazing dominance. Prime Wlad would dominate any era.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

​


----------



## Brighton Bomber (May 25, 2013)

Based upon current achievements I would say no. Wlad lacks a signature win, the Haye fight could have been a notable win on his resume but his performance was simply too timid and unimpressive despite being so dominant. His level of opposition while not as bad as some would suggest is still poor. While other champions like Tyson, Holmes and Louis also dominated weak era's like Wlad, they dominated in a much more impressive fashion, especially Tyson and Louis. 

Also the early losses do damage is legacy, while he has clearly improved greatly it still effects your legacy, you could forgive the loss to Purrity as inexperience, but to punch himself out again against Brewster is damning and a sign he did not learn from his previous mistake. The manner of the Sanders loss is also worrying. 

But if he continues to dominate for years to come then he may crack the top ten for some due to longevity. A fighters true standing will often be decided long after he retires so time will tell where history will place him among the other heavyweight greats. I will add I think he looked poor against Pianeta and maybe beginning to show signs of his age finally so the next few years maybe crucial in terms of his legacy.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Slava said:


> ​


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Slava said:


> Prime Wlad is unbeatable. He is undefeated in his prime. During his world championship reign, he has won 5 world titles, has made 14 dominant title defenses and hasn't clearly lost a round. Amazing dominance. Prime Wlad would dominate any era.


But ******. That's not how it works ******. You can't just ignore a boxer's failures PRIOR to him being shot. In other words if Jones had lost to Hopkins... even though it was at a very young stage of his career, it would have still counted against him. The Green/Lebedov fights didn't because Jones was too far gone.

Wladimir had 40+ fights at the time he was brutally beaten up by Sanders. He had even more experience when he was left hooked into the hospital by Brewster. You can't just take those losses and hide them. Now if Wladimir continue to get KTFO 5 years from now because he's fighting for a paycheck.. than yes those KO'S at that time won't count. 
Wladimir has not reached his defensive peak heading into the Sanders fight but offensively he has peaked. In fact he has been on a offensive regression ever since 2005.

This is the sad thing about Wlad, at Wlad's OFFENSIVE peak.. any B+ Level fighter with a punch would have knocked him out. At Wlad's current DEFENSIVE peak he is a boring cunt that was banned from HBO.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Slava said:


> Shut the fuck up with your delusional hypothetical fantasy bullshit.
> 
> Wlad beats all of them.
> 
> Wlad dominates your hero Lewis like Vitali did and knocks him out like *Miroshnichenko*, McCall and Rahman did.


Lmao. Go look up what happened in the rematch. Lewis literally avenged every single one of his defeats from Am's,Olympics, and Pros.

That is shockingly impressive. Wlad don't avenge defeats.

As for Vitali. Do we need to get into this again?

Old shot bloated corpse retard version of Lewis stopped Prime Vitali in 6 rounds. Lewis was on his way to Pele Reiding Vitali but doctors saved Vitali's life.

Vitali was a steroid user and a was caught prior to the Olympics. His skin would have failed him in a rematch.

Vitali got paper thin skin, Lennox said it cut even easier than Tommy Morrison's. Any elite heavyweight would have sliced up Vitali's Ukrainian skin so easily.

Wladimir's skin isn't quite as shit but it's still pretty bad. Emmanuel Steward torn open Wlad's cut against Wiliamson after the brutal KD Wlad suffered. That way Wlad could cheat TOS, it was videoed and documented.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Luf said:


> I'm surprised he never tried to rematch purrity because with better stamina he'd have shut him out.
> 
> Sanders beat wlad so emphatically there wasn't much need for a rematch and Corrie rightly went after big brother so wlad didn't really have a say in that one.
> 
> ...


Wlad was terrified of Purrity for some reason. I think Wlad felt his brute strength when Purrity carried Wlad around the ring after the beat down. Wlad looked just like a cute lil Ukrainian girl when Purrity was carrying him around and around. Lol.
Rape Victim for sure.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> And that needs to be taken into account. Could the 2002-2006 version of Wladimir survive the 90's punchers? Forget Lewis (who would KO any version of Wlad) forget Bowe, forget Tyson. Can 2002-2006 Wladimir even survive Ike or Tua? Forget Ike and Tua,what about a tier lower in Bruno or Morrison? The 90's was filled with so many big punchers that I don't think Wlad could have had a career resurgence during that time. He is a product of his era. (A era lacking in big punchers outside of Slow Slam and Toe Haye)
> The guys that I want to see him against are:
> Pulev
> Jennings
> ...


Wilder has a raw aggression that wlad hasn't faced in a long time. Pulev and Povetkin represent the biggest tests for him. If he can dispatch those two he's done well to answer some questions. Jennings I'm not too fussed about.

As for the big punchers, you don't really survive them. You have to neutralise them. Wlad has the tools to neutralise, he is quicker than most, bigger than most and harder hitting than most. He realises his weaknesses and capitalises on his strengths. On paper he's fantastic but the reality is last time we saw him against any punched of that level was Brewster and he took what wlad threw at him and knocked him out. It's gonna be tough erasing that image.


----------



## RollinShots (Jun 6, 2013)

is pussy Wlad going to actually on the duck for povetkin? f he does then no

louis, ali, marciano, holmes, foreman, holyfield, tyson, johnson, frazier, liston


----------



## Dazl1212 (May 16, 2013)

I'd actually like to see Wlad face Chisora when he has a few more wins under his belt.
Problem is he'd get slated for fighting Haye and Vitalis leftovers


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Slava said:


> Wladimir Klitschko
> 
> - WBA/IBF/IBO/WBO/RING heavyweight champion of the world
> 
> ...


Wrong. He beat just 5 world champs and beat 6 former world champs. Beating former world champs means shit. He could beat Holyfield tomorrow and it would mean nothing.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Slava said:


> That's irrelevant ancient history.
> 
> Sanders is the hardest hitting southpaw of all time. Vitali and Rahman said Sanders hit harder than Lewis. Sanders got a lucky fluke against a green, young, cocky, underprepared worst version of Wlad who totally underestimated Sanders.  Wlad tried to get a rematch, Sanders turned it down, vacated the WBO belt and fought Vitali instead for the RING and WBC undisputed heavyweight championship of the world. Vitali destroyed Sanders.
> 
> ...


WRONG. Manny wanted Wlad nowhere near Sanders, he wouldn't even allow him to fight Briggs to unify the belts. Sanders had to fight his mandatory who was little known Brewster. He cashed out and fought Vitali for a huge retirment check instead....Sanders battered Wlad in such a lop sided , dominant fashion that there is no locigal reasoning to suggest any version of Wlad would ever have any hope of winning.


----------



## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

No.

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
Jack Johnson
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Evander Holyfield
Joe Frazier
Mike Tyson
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Wlad

I may have missed some out, I got him top twenty but I think its gonna be hard for him to move much further unless some real competent challengers come along.

I got him ahead of guys like Tunney, Ezzard, Walcott etc just because they had very brief stays in the division and mainly made names for themselves in the weights below, P4P its no contest though although i can see why people would rank them higher based on their brief stay resulting in better wins than Wlad's whole career.

Wlad has dominated though, he's done enough to be a top twenty guy. The losses to Purity, Saunders and Brewster hurt him a lot as I dont see many ATG heavyweights being destroyed of guys like them near their peak years.

His comp has been poor as well, that aint really his fault but still at the end of the day, you can't downgrade others because Wlad only had weaker competition to fight, its a bit of tough luck but thats the way it is. maybes if he hangs around long enough he can beat some young boxers who go on to achieve a lot and his legacy will improve.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Slava said:


> Retarded post.
> 
> If I got a dime for every time you said something stupid, I'd be a billionaire.
> 
> ...


Quote from Brewster

"[The loss to Brewster was particularly troubling. Afterward, the Klitschko camp claimed that their fighter had been drugged. Brewster took a contrary view.] Wladimir Klitschko is a great athlete, ... But Wladimir Klitschko is not a great fighter. There's a difference."


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Luf said:


> There was a time when I'd have said yes. His stats are incredible and his career turnaround is legen - wair wait it - dary.
> 
> However I'm now more of a fluid dynamic thinker when it comes to boxing so I rank on how good it think a fighter is, and whilst wlad has looked brilliant these last 7 years, i can't help but notice the lack pressure fighters on his resume. Brewster knocked him out and Peter came close to doing so as well and that leads me to conclude the level of fighters who can beat wlad into submission lie between those two.
> 
> ...


Yeah , he's an ATG as long as he doesn't have to have to fight a particular style or any great fighters.


----------



## Dinamita85 (Jun 14, 2013)

No , despite his dominance the last few years there just arent enough great fighters for him to show just how good he has become, which is a shame.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Yeah , he's an ATG as long as he doesn't have to have to fight a particular style or any great fighters.


ah Dino, if you'd have read my post you would see I said he is not in my top 10. I don't like giving the benefit of the doubt at the best of times, let alone someone I've seen get beaten up by the type of fighters I mentioned.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Dominance is a blind statistic. Only dummies who know shit about box will claim him a top 10 ATG , you dont even have to of see any of his fights to know he fed on bottom feeders for the last 7 years.
He's been fighting guys so obscure that none of the current top 10 has fought any of them.
Theres no point in any of Wlads career where you can look at him and say -thats ATG great skill and boxing. No ATG has been blown out 3 times in his prime by 2 underwhelming opponents and one official jouneryman.

Reigning over hand picked stool pigeons is the only claim he has. A great has to come up in every area. He can only fight one style so had infighting abolished when he set down in Germany. He's predictable, cant adapt , has no plan B and cant finish to save his life.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Chatty said:


> No.
> 
> Muhammad Ali
> Joe Louis
> ...


Fantastic post. Something you touched upon that most boxing fans haven't really talked about as much is that you can't 'downplay' others and down rate their 'stats' as compare to Wlad just because Wlad has had inferior competition. That is something I see Klitschko fans do a lot. Saying Wlad's title defense this, Wlad's streak that. Is it impressive? Yes! Is it impressive enough so that it shoots Wlad up to a 1st Tier HW ATG? Absolutely not.

His last 4 fights shouldn't even be counted as 'defenses', they were disgraceful. All this is also shadowed by the fact he never had to fight the #2 of his era.

Vitali could have won at least 1 of 2 against Wlad from 08-10, yes I realize they are brothers. I understand why they didn't fight each other, but we can not just brush this aside and act like Wladimir fought the #2.

Is it excusable that Wladimir never fought Vitali? Yes
Should this be factored into his legacy? Yes

That being said:


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Masters said:


> Dominance is a blind statistic. Only dummies who know shit about box will claim him a top 10 ATG , you dont even have to of see any of his fights to know he fed on bottom feeders for the last 7 years.
> He's been fighting guys so obscure that none of the current top 10 has fought any of them.
> Theres no point in any of Wlads career where you can look at him and say -thats ATG great skill and boxing. No ATG has been blown out 3 times in his prime by 2 underwhelming opponents and *one official jouneryman.*
> 
> Reigning over hand picked stool pigeons is the only claim he has. A great has to come up in every area. He can only fight one style so had infighting abolished when he set down in Germany. He's predictable, cant adapt , has no plan be and cant finish to save his life.


People need to take note of this.
Tyson lost to Douglas. Lewis was KTFO by Rahman. Wladimir is the ONLY ATG that actually lost to a journeyman.
Douglas and Rahman were inferior fighters to Tyson and Lewis but they were NOT journeyman. Far from it.

Ross Purrity was an actual journeyman.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Luf said:


> ah Dino, if you'd have read my post you would see I said he is not in my top 10. I don't like giving the benefit of the doubt at the best of times, let alone someone I've seen get beaten up by the type of fighters I mentioned.


I was making that point in general. He's gotten a free pass throughout his career , but now that there are names there to be beaten he wants no part of them. He'll be known not as an ATG , but for checking out when the going got tuff.
That Povektin fight is a gonner , remember that thread back late last year:hey


----------



## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

No wins over ATG

2 KO losses to B-Level fighters near-prime

1 KO to a practical journeyman pre-prime

Hasn't got many A level fighters on his record at the time he fought them

These are pretty much undisputed, its hard to bracket him real high up when nearly every ATG heavyweight has beaten better fighters and hasn't lost in such a fashion near their primes to the level of fighters Wlad has. he hasn't really overcome much adversity through his career. He has achieved a lot stat wise and has had a dominant reign but when compared to others he just pails in significance.

He should just spend the next few years trying to take all the young guns out and then hope they can bolster his legacy by becoming great themselves.

Povetkin
Pulev
Haye II
Fury
Wilder
Jennings
Helenius

Then anyone else who comes along. These are the fights he should make over the next three years, they offer the most money and give him the best chance of improving his legacy as by the way I just said. elsewise he can beat the same guys he has already beaten up and never move forward.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Slava said:


> Wladimir Klitschko
> 
> - WBA/IBF/IBO/WBO/RING heavyweight champion of the world
> 
> ...


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

If he breaks the record for consecutive defenses. He can have Luois spot, when people are describing Wlad i keep thingking it could be a Louis thread, never beat a truly great heavyweight , fought a lot of bums...ect.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

What also should be noted is he won his major belts against smaller guys coming up fom lower divisions. One in Haye, which he looked absolutely clueless at times so played it safe and coasted to a low output points victory.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> If he breaks the record for consecutive defenses. He can have Luois spot, when people are describing Wlad i keep thingking it could be a Louis thread, never beat a truly great heavyweight , fought a lot of bums...ect.


Only somebody who knows nothing about box would say something like that. If you cant tell the difference bewteen Wlad and Louis in terms of skill , resume and pure natural boxing ability , then you have no duty on a boxing forum.

You couldn't even spell his name.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Only somebody who knows nothing about box would say something like that. If you cant tell the difference bewteen Wlad and Louis in terms of skill , resume and pure natural boxing ability , then you have no duty on a boxing forum.
> 
> You couldn't even spell his name.


Its clearly a typo you insolent cunt. A ranking on the top 10 list is about resume and achievement alone, skill and natural ability have nothing at all to do with how i rank a fighter which can only be done on what they achieved.

If you want to get smart, i may know nothing of "luois" but you know nothing of what you refer to as "box".

I will take not knowing a fighter over not knowing the whole sport any day of the week.

PS. Fuck off.

:smug


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

So performance has nothing to do with it. All that matters is a statistic on paper. Its a good thing yout shit standard only apply to you.


----------



## ChipChair (Jun 4, 2013)

Love the Wlad was poisoned stuff, always a favourite of mine from the Klits :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Can someone make a list of Wladimir's top 10 wins?


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> I was making that point in general. He's gotten a free pass throughout his career , but now that there are names there to be beaten he wants no part of them. He'll be known not as an ATG , but for checking out when the going got tuff.
> That Povektin fight is a gonner , remember that thread back late last year:hey


there's still time the povetkin fight to come off, time will tell I guess.


----------



## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

He's not on my top ten but if someone had him just breaking it, it's no longer particularly disagreeable to me. I can disagree without scoffing anyway. I think if you have him between 10-16 you have an easy case to have him there. I don't rate his opposition as poorly as some. I think if you take his best opponents defeated, Byrd, Chagaev, Ibragimov, Haye, Chambers, Thompson, Peter, you're getting guys that would've fit very nicely into even the better eras' top ten contenders, with varying degrees of success, whether some wish to admit it or not. None are like Chatty has said, A-level. None great. But those are all nice B- to B+ level heavyweights that have been part of an undefeated run that's very impressive as a whole, even with none of the individual fighters A-class. The whole group taken on the big stage without a loss, that's the strength of Klitschko's legacy, and it's a great legacy, a top twenty heavyweight legacy, no matter how I can see you slice it. Top ten is very arguable but all through the top twenty is some serious hair-splitting, the way I see it. I prefer him out of the top ten at this point but again, nothing crazy to have him breaking it anymore. The poor losses have started to be overshadowed by the undefeated run of the past eight years. I think his career will be judged more kindly years after he is gone. Accomplishments of higher action elites tend to depreciate after fizzling out where that of lower action elites tend to appreciate. It's almost as if fans, years after you're gone finally go "I can respect this guy now that I don't have to actually endure him."


----------



## Brighton Bomber (May 25, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Can someone make a list of Wladimir's top 10 wins?


I tried and got stuck on 9, couldn't decide who would be 10th, slim pickings. No doubt his resume is weak but he can only beat who's out there. He simply wasn't good enough in his late 20's to fight the best of the last era and by the time he peaked the division was a wasteland bereft of talent and shot fighters from the last era.


----------



## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

No

Anyone who has Tunney & Dempsey in their top10 deserves gulag


----------



## dftaylor (Jun 4, 2012)

Head to head, Wlad is right up there. Height, reach, power, skills, great movement for such a large man. He'd give most HWs of the last 50 years problems. Unfortunately for him, he's got three losses to very spotty opponents. The manner of those losses counts against him. Also, his best wins, while decent, are unremarkable.

So, on consistency alone, he's a remarkable fighter. But, through no fault of his own, he's unlikely to be considered among the absolute best. It's the perils of being in a weak era.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Brighton Bomber said:


> I tried and got stuck on 9, couldn't decide who would be 10th, slim pickings. No doubt his resume is weak but he can only beat who's out there. He simply wasn't good enough in his late 20's to fight the best of the last era and by the time he peaked the division was a wasteland bereft of talent and shot fighters from the last era.


That excuse no longer applies. The names are there and he's not fighting them. He hasn't fought a ranked contender since Haye.

Without his belts he would not be ranked within the top 5 in his division.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

dftaylor said:


> Head to head, Wlad is right up there. Height, reach, power, skills, great movement for such a large man. He'd give most HWs of the last 50 years problems. Unfortunately for him, he's got three losses to very spotty opponents. The manner of those losses counts against him. Also, his best wins, while decent, are unremarkable.
> 
> So, on consistency alone, he's a remarkable fighter. But, through no fault of his own, he's unlikely to be considered among the absolute best. It's the perils of being in a weak era.


H2H Wlad couldn't get past Purity , Brewster and Sanders. He went life and death with Sam Peter and with against a similar sized HW to himself- Wach, he couldn't even put him down on a knee. Are the the best names in the history of the division? Do those names suggest he would be a nighmare for all the former greats?


----------



## He so: "I am a C'ler" (May 30, 2013)

1. Mike Tyson
2. Wladimir Klitschko
3. Vitali Klitschko


----------



## dftaylor (Jun 4, 2012)

Masters said:


> H2H Wlad couldn't get past Purity , Brewster and Sanders. He went life and death with Sam Peter and with against a similar sized HW to himself- Wach, he couldn't even put him down on a knee. Are the the best names in the history of the division? Do those names suggest he would be a nighmare for all the former greats?


I rate the fighter at his best and then apply it. Wlad, at his best is a mobile, fast-handed heavy with a fantastic jab. He'd give many of the ATG heavies problems. I'm not saying he'd win, but if you can't see how he'd give Lewis, Holmes, Louis, Marciano, etc problems then you're really not watching him very closely.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> So performance has nothing to do with it. All that matters is a statistic on paper. Its a good thing yout shit standard only apply to you.


If rating for greatness it has to be down to who they beat and how they beat them.

Your idea of "natural boxing ability" is utter madness. You can not rate a fighter on their "natural ability" and consider that it has any impact on their greatness.


----------



## Brownies (Jun 7, 2013)

Hard to say... After the top 5, most of the other top guys got holes in their resume. Wlad lacks top names, Liston didn't have a long and successful reign. Tyson had a short prime and he doesn't have a win against a prime ATG heavyweight. Dempsey didn't fight Wills and was inactive in his title reign. Johnson didn't fight the top black contenders... etc etc. 

Wlad's got a title reign lenghty enough to be placed in the top 10, but someone who favors H2H and top wins could put him further down the top 15.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

dftaylor said:


> I rate the fighter at his best and then apply it. Wlad, at his best is a mobile, fast-handed heavy with a fantastic jab. He'd give many of the ATG heavies problems. I'm not saying he'd win, but if you can't see how he'd give Lewis, Holmes, Louis, Marciano, etc problems then you're really not watching him very closely.


Ive followed Wlads career and know all there is to know about him. Which fight in particular do you think is a good example of how he'd hold his own against former greats?


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> If rating for greatness it has to be down to who they beat and how they beat them.
> 
> Your idea of "natural boxing ability" is utter madness. You can not rate a fighter on their "natural ability" and consider that it has any impact on their greatness.


Greats have to excell in all departments , not just one, i.e defending titles against weak opposition.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Greats have to excell in all departments , not just one, i.e defending titles against weak opposition.


What does that have to do with your natural talent element to rating?

Are you saying that without natural talent a fighter can never be great?


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> What does that have to do with your natural talent element to rating?
> 
> Are you saying that without natural talent a fighter can never be great?


Its one of many factors. Why are you having difficulty understanding that?


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Its one of many factors. Why are you having difficulty understanding that?


Because i dont think i know any other boxing fan who includes natural ability into their greatness ranking.


----------



## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> What does that have to do with your natural talent element to rating?
> 
> Are you saying that without natural talent a fighter can never be great?


Wladimir has big Talent. Very fast, huge power, good defense (is hard to hit clean) and he is very good in making his opponents tired.:lol:


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> Because i dont think i know any other boxing fan who includes natural ability into their greatness ranking.


Natural ability falls under ATG skill and technique. Joe Louis to look at him , is one of the most complete boxers ever put on film.


----------



## Berliner (Jun 6, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> Because i dont think i know any other boxing fan who includes natural ability into their greatness ranking.


Stuipid Thing to do. All what matters is what the fighters do! What they achieve. You have to know that this Masters is the number one Klitschko hater from ESB. His former Name was dinovelt (or something like this). He cant be objectiv about the Klitschkos.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Natural ability falls under ATG skill and technique. Joe Louis to look at him , is one of the most complete boxers ever put on film.


Fuck off does it.

A fighters skill and technique and world different from natural ability they are a completely different thing, technique is trained you moron. How can it be natural?

Also, although these things may influence a H2H list you can not say some ones technique makes them great.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> Fuck off does it.
> 
> A fighters skill and technique and world different from natural ability they are a completely different thing, technique is trained you moron. How can it be natural?
> 
> Also, although these things may influence a H2H list you can not say some ones technique makes them great.


So how come nobody ever trained to be as good as Joe Louis? Some fighters are born with natural ability and they advance on it. Others train all they're life and are still shit.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> So how come nobody ever trained to be as good as Joe Louis? Some fighters are born with natural ability and they advance on it. Others train all they're life and are still shit.


I still fail to see your point.

Some fighters train and dont do as well as Joe Louis so we have to rate people on their natural ability. To think you had the audacity to say i know nothing about boxing when you come out with such utter drivel.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> I still fail to see your point.
> 
> Some fighters train and dont do as well as Joe Louis so we have to rate people on their natural ability. To think you had the audacity to say i know nothing about boxing when you come out with such utter drivel.


Is there a question or a point in that sentance? You fail is right.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Is there a question or a point in that sentance? You fail is right.


Probably not yet it still has more meaning that everything you have puked out in this thread about natural ability and rating greatness.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> Probably not yet it still has more meaning that everything you have puked out in this thread about natural ability and rating greatness.


Do you think Cus could of trained anybody to be Mike Tyson?. Fuch trained to Frazier to his natural streghts, you cant teach anybody to throw a left hook like Frazier.
Goldman changed very little about the way Marciano naturally threw his punches in case it tampered with the natural gift he had at creating leverage.
You've been exposed to know noting about boxing. Off to the trash can with you.


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Do you think Cus could of trained anybody to be Mike Tyson?. Fuch trained to Frazier to his natural streghts, you cant teach anybody to throw a left hook like Frazier.
> Goldman changed very little about the way Marciano naturally threw his punches in case it tampered with the natural gift he had at creating leverage.
> You've been exposed to know noting about boxing. Off to the trash can with you.


I think they need natural talent but it is irrelevant to their greatness.

Your opinions all seem to be utter shite and i can not see anyone here agreeing with you.


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I rank on the eye test and there isn't enough to warrant a place in my top ten yet.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

DonBoxer said:


> I think they need natural talent but it is irrelevant to their greatness.
> 
> Your opinions all seem to be utter shite and i can not see anyone here agreeing with you.


My opinions are based on fact. They are not my "opinions".
What other people? I see nobody else engaged in this discussion.


----------



## 2377 (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> My List:
> 
> Muhammad Ali
> Joe Louis
> ...


Frazier, Liston and Tyson are not top ten heavyweights. To answer the question of the thread, I think Wlad is hovering right around the #10 mark based on accomplishment, consistently and dominance alone (not taking into account talent, defense, physical attributes, skills, etc).


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Montero said:


> Frazier, Liston and Tyson are not top ten heavyweights. To answer the question of the thread, I think Wlad is hovering right around the #10 mark based on accomplishment, consistently and dominance alone (not taking into account talent, defense, physical attributes, skills, etc).


So who will you replace in place of Frazier,Liston,and Tyson. Keep in mind that there are literally thousands of lists of top ten HW'S from reputable sources that does include at least 2 of the 3. I respect your opinion but it's not like I put Riddick Bowe in there or Vitali Klitschko.

Wladimir's little 'physical attributes' does not count as part of his rankings. If we were to talk about Wladimir's physical attributes it just annoys me more and make me hate on him due to the fact he is physically dominant but a mental weakling.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Montero said:


> Frazier, Liston and Tyson are not top ten heavyweights. To answer the question of the thread, I think Wlad is hovering right around the #10 mark based on accomplishment, consistently and dominance alone (not taking into account talent, defense, physical attributes, skills, etc).


Tyson is a top 10 HW. 
Demolished two authentic ATGs. One in 90 seconds. Spinks might of been a former LHW but so was Byrd, except Spinks beat an ATG at the weight along with knocking out Gerry Cooney in 5 rounds.
Byrd is probably Wlads best win. Took Wlad two fights and till he was past prime before he was able to knock him out out. What a joke. Tyson would of Spinked him in one.
He was also a household name and gave boxing expousure around the globe. He left an impact on the sport that wont be forgotten. His fights will always be re-run on sports networks. He wes the youngest undisputed HW ever. Wlad was never undisputed HW champ.

Tell me what are Wlads greatest accomplishments?


----------



## heavyweightcp (Jun 11, 2013)

NO


----------



## DonBoxer (Jun 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> My opinions are based on fact. They are not my "opinions".
> What other people? I see nobody else engaged in this discussion.


So the level of natural ability a fighter has is not opinion it is fact and you have seen all of the early fights of Louis to distinguish between what was his natural ability and what he has developed.

There is no way of you arguing that your judgment of a fighters natural ability is fact.


----------



## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

I will say not yet, because there have been so many great heavyweights, but the issue cant be put off for long!

Povetkin is the kind of opponent who would have to be noted in the argument.


----------



## Dead Terrorist (Jun 20, 2013)

A lot consider Lennox Lewis as a top 3 ATG HW when Wlad has at least an equal cv to him so I say yeah, yeah he is.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Dead Terrorist said:


> A lot consider Lennox Lewis as a top 3 ATG HW when Wlad has at least an equal cv to him so I say yeah, yeah he is.


Lennox Lewis being a top 3 ATG HW is debatable. Lennox Lewis being top 5 sounds about right.

Wladimir Klitschko does not have a 'cv' equal to him. That's a joke. Slap yourself.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Lewis is the most overrated hw of all times. Dining out on tko6 for ten years, the only reason he could be called top 10 in my view, not for out pointing an old Holyfield and stopping a shot Tyson. I've no doubt Wladimir would have KO'd that Tyson and beaten the same Holyfield. If Lewis is anywhere near top 5 then Wladimir is top 10. If anything his career is more impressive given the length of reign and fact he will go on way beyond Lewis who quite frankly quit in a shameful way. 
'


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

On the Money said:


> Lewis is the most overrated hw of all times. Dining out on tko6 for ten years, the only reason he could be called top 10 in my view, not for out pointing an old Holyfield and stopping a shot Tyson. I've no doubt Wladimir would have KO'd that Tyson and beaten the same Holyfield. If Lewis is anywhere near top 5 then Wladimir is top 10. If anything his career is more impressive given the length of reign and fact he will go on way beyond Lewis who quite frankly quit in a shameful way.
> '


Lovely, but how will the 2000-2005 Wladimir have done against Ruddock,Tucker,Bruno,Morrison,Golota,Briggs,Zeijko Marovic, Prime Mercer? That is the real question.

No fucking shit Prime Wlad could have beaten a lot of the guys Lewis did AT VARIOUS stages of Lennox's career. But let's put Wlad in a career progression time line against Lennox's resume and the odds of him being KTFO 5+ times is very high.

Lewis fought Ruddock and Tucker at around the same stage of his career as when Wladimir was getting ktfo against Sanders. You saying the 2000-2005 Version of Wladimir could have survived? No, I don't think so.

Wladimir was getting torched by TOS for God's Sake. Ruddock would have ended his life.

Also I don't know if Current Wlad could have beaten 2002 Tyson. That 1st Round Tyson had against Lennox might have knocked Wladimir out into next week.

Man I love you delusional Mr Glass Nut Huggers. You still mad that shot bloated sick Lewis ended Prime Vitali's entire PRIME in one night?


----------



## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

One advantage of being an old timer fan, is that you can give a good angle on the question:

"How would this guy be rated today, if he had done the same 80 years ago". 

In Wlad's case, I think he would be rated very highly, even if there was no film of him!


----------



## O59 (Jul 8, 2012)

Montero said:


> Frazier, Liston and Tyson are not top ten heavyweights. To answer the question of the thread, I think Wlad is hovering right around the #10 mark based on accomplishment, consistently and dominance alone (not taking into account talent, defense, physical attributes, skills, etc).


Why aren't Frazier and Tyson top 10? :huh Both are in there, for me. I can't find ten names to rate above either one of them.

It's a bit mystifying to me how somebody believes Wladimir Klitschko has proved his greatness more than Frazier and Tyson, despite not beating the same caliber of fighter on a relatively consistent basis. Dominance and consistency do not take precedence over beating better fighters, or facing superior opposition, which both did clearly.

A guy like Tucker would be one of Wladimir Klitschko's best wins, if not _the_ best.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

janitor said:


> One advantage of being an old timer fan, is that you can give a good angle on the question:
> 
> "How would this guy be rated today, if he had done the same 80 years ago".
> 
> In Wlad's case, I think he would be rated very highly, even if there was no film of him!


No.. the fact that he went down 13 times as a Heavyweight would have been well documented. His weak chin would have been exaggerated today to no end and any time someone mentions him as a top 10 ATG...people will say 'dude this guy was down 13 times .. he would have been KTFO by anyone with a punch'.

In fact being around in the modern era has HELPED his cause because now with video people can make up various excuses for his KD'S and KO losses and walk around pretending his chin is not bad it's just 'average'.


----------



## Dead Terrorist (Jun 20, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Lovely, but how will the 2000-2005 Wladimir have done against Ruddock,Tucker,Bruno,Morrison,Golota,Briggs,Zeijko Marovic, Prime Mercer? That is the real question.
> 
> No fucking shit Prime Wlad could have beaten a lot of the guys Lewis did AT VARIOUS stages of Lennox's career. But let's put Wlad in a career progression time line against Lennox's resume and the odds of him being KTFO 5+ times is very high.
> 
> ...


This is all quite irrelevant really. Wlad turned pro as a scrawny practically teenager that could have made CW after his Olympic success. At that stage age wise Lewis failed to do anything at his first Olympics and stayed in the AM's for another 4 years. Hence why Wlad has ridiculously more fights than Lewis and is still going strong.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Is it a coincidence though that Wladimir's rise happened right after the death of the last great Heavyweight Era?

There was a reason his team refused to let him fight Lewis in 2000-2002, Wlad kept going to his team and asked them to make a fight but his team just laughed at him.

It was well documented that every single person working with Wladimir felt that he would have been a KO Victim if he went against Lennox from 2000-2002. The plan was to keep feeding him bums until Lewis got old and unmotivated.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Dead Terrorist said:


> This is all quite irrelevant really. Wlad turned pro as a scrawny practically teenager that could have made CW after his Olympic success. At that stage age wise Lewis failed to do anything at his first Olympics and stayed in the AM's for another 4 years. Hence why Wlad has ridiculously more fights than Lewis and is still going strong.


It is totally relevant because it compares CV'S. You sounding like a Klittard right now so that's Strike 2. Once I confirm you are just a racist Klittard, I'm just going to start insulting you instead of answering your posts in a legitimate way.

You say Wlad had more fights than Lewis. Of course he does, during Lennox's 15th fight he was going against a 35-0 fighter. By Lennox's 2nd year as a pro he was KTFO out of Ruddock and being ducked by the World's #1 Riddick Bowe.

By Wladimir's 2nd year as a pro, he was fighting the Bulgarian Pig and that was considered a step up.


----------



## Dead Terrorist (Jun 20, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Is it a coincidence though that Wladimir's rise happened right after the death of the last great Heavyweight Era?
> 
> There was a reason his team refused to let him fight Lewis in 2000-2002, Wlad kept going to his team and asked them to make a fight but his team just laughed at him.
> 
> It was well documented that every single person working with Wladimir felt that he would have been a KO Victim if he went against Lennox from 2000-2002. The plan was to keep feeding him bums until Lewis got old and unmotivated.


Lewis made an insane mistake then by not fighting Wlad who would have been by miles, MILES his best ever win.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Dead Terrorist said:


> Lewis made an insane mistake then by not fighting Wlad who would have been by miles, MILES his best ever win.


Nobody said that Lewis was GOAT. He was KTFO just like Wladimir. Lennox was Wlad's idol.

If you look at their pathetic losses.. it all happened in the same rounds.

The difference is at least Lewis avenged his defeats.

Why the hell didn't Wlad avenge his defeats against Purrity and Sanders?


----------



## Dead Terrorist (Jun 20, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> It is totally relevant because it compares CV'S. You sounding like a Klittard right now so that's Strike 2. Once I confirm you are just a racist Klittard, I'm just going to start insulting you instead of answering your posts in a legitimate way.
> 
> You say Wlad had more fights than Lewis. Of course he does, during Lennox's 15th fight he was going against a 35-0 fighter. By Lennox's 2nd year as a pro he was already being ducked by Riddick Bowe after he just KTFO Ruddock.
> 
> By Wladimir's 2nd year as a pro, he was fighting the Bulgarian Pig and that was considered a step up.


Yes cause Lewis did his seasoning with an extra 4 years in the AM's after failing at the Olympics compared to Wlad doing it in the pro game. That was my entire point so I don't really know why you bothered to expand on it.


----------



## Dead Terrorist (Jun 20, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Is it a coincidence though that Wladimir's rise happened right after the death of the last great Heavyweight Era?
> 
> There was a reason his team refused to let him fight Lewis in 2000-2002, Wlad kept going to his team and asked them to make a fight but his team just laughed at him.
> 
> It was well documented that every single person working with Wladimir felt that he would have been a KO Victim if he went against Lennox from 2000-2002. The plan was to keep feeding him bums until Lewis got old and unmotivated.


Wlad's rise started when Lewis was in his pomp actually.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Dead Terrorist said:


> Wlad's rise started when Lewis was in his pomp actually.


Yes.. and Wlad was ktfo 3 times... than in late 2006 when the Heavyweight Division officially died.. Wlad started dominating.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad is the biggest retard on this forum, followed closely by Masters.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> than in late 2006 when the Heavyweight Division officially died


Don't you ever get tired of spewing retarded nonsense?

Do us all a favour and kill yourself.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Slava said:


> Don't you ever get tired of spewing retarded nonsense?
> 
> Do us all a favour and kill yourself.


What will it take for us to be friends? Why are you so angry about boxers? Does it really matter? Is Wladimir giving you money?
I was just like you at one time, but I changed.

Rumors had it you were like this way back in 2007........... that's 5-6 years with the exact same mindset.

What's that saying goes? If you are the same person you were 5 years ago, than you wasted 5 years of your life?


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

God will punish you retarded Klitschko haters.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Trinidad, your trolling of Wladimir doesn't wash son, as it didn't on esb. Accept he's the 8 year heavyweight champion, fourth all time in length of reign, longest ever in the history of the IBF and WBO belt, has saw off all the competition, many that had their 0's intact. I know you hate it, want to cry out and thrash the ground and bark at the fucking moon, but :deal with it cos he's going to be here for a few years yet, and he is an atg already by every creditable and sane source worth a damn, including Ring magazine who've had him in the p4p list for years.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

On the Money said:


> Trinidad, your trolling of Wladimir doesn't wash son, as it didn't on esb. Accept he's the 8 year heavyweight champion, fourth all time in defences, longest ever in the history of the IBF and WBO belt, has saw off all the competition, many that had their 0's intact. I know you hate it, want to cry out and thrash the ground and bark at the fucking moon, but :deal with it cos he's going to be here for a few years yet, and he is an atg already by every creditable and sane source worth a damn, including Ring magazine who've had him in the p4p list for years.


He's defense streak is bullshit because he never fought the #2. Shut the fuck up with your delusional bullcrap regarding Wladimir's achievements. If Vitali was not his brother, Wlad's career would have ended in 2008. Wladimir is the product of a weak era combined with a series of extremely lucky circumstances of having a trainer who have taught him how to protect his weak chin+having the clear #2 of his era as an older brother.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Slava said:


> FelixTrinidad is the biggest retard on this forum, followed closely by Masters.


Felix is the best picker currently on this forum.

I think he's wrong about Wlad but he picks fights so accurate I'm actually scared he might be right.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> He's defense streak is bullshit because he never fought the #2. Shut the fuck up with your delusional bullcrap regarding Wladimir's achievements. If Vitali was not his brother, Wlad's career would have ended in 2008. Wladimir is the product of a weak era combined with a series of extremely lucky circumstances of having a trainer who have taught him how to protect his weak chin+having the clear #2 of his era as an older brother.


Byrd was nr1 when Wlad beat him somewhere.
Vitali was still in retirement then.

Though he didn't beat the nr2 in the era, he did beat a nr1 at a certain moment.


----------



## Threetime (Jun 8, 2012)

No. Poor opponents, no genuine standout wins, mentally weak and shrinks under pressure.

You can't deny his dominance but it can't be ignored either that the division was at an all time low during that dominance. I got to add in his 3 losses and on other occasions he touched the canvas without being really tagged hard, more from cuffing shots. Something which will always bother me about him.

Brilliant athlete, really good 1-2 boxer but too many flaws to be a genuine top 10 for me.

Top 20 but not top 10.


----------



## Slava (Jun 28, 2013)

Threetime

Wlad has a great resume. He has gotten tougher with age. He is mentally very strong and he doesn't "shrink under pressure" you stupid hater.

Read post #22

The heavyweight division is better than it's ever been. There are more countries participating than ever before.

The iron curtain fell. The days of the American local champs are over. Boxing is a worldwide global sport now.

Eastern European fighters are superior.

The Klitschko era is the real golden era.

The Klitschkos have dominated and cleaned out a worldwide global heavyweight division. This is one of the many reasons why the Klitschkos are the greatest heavyweights of all time.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Slava said:


> Threetime
> 
> Wlad has a great resume. He has gotten tougher with age. He is mentally very strong and he doesn't "shrink under pressure" you stupid hater.
> 
> ...


Are you Meow?


----------



## Threetime (Jun 8, 2012)

Slava said:


> Threetime
> 
> Wlad has gotten better with age.


True


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

dyna said:


> Are you Meow?


Vladimir23


----------



## BoxingAnalyst (Jun 4, 2012)

Nowhere near, just my opinion though.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

BoxingAnalyst said:


> Nowhere near, just my opinion though.


Nowhere near, get real you hilarious Muslim clown.


----------



## Webbiano (Jun 9, 2013)

It obviously depends what sort of criteria you have, but for me he is not *greater* than any of the following;

Louis, Ali, Marciano, Foreman, Lewis, Johnson, Frazier, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Jeffries and Dempsey.


----------



## BoxingAnalyst (Jun 4, 2012)

On the Money said:


> Nowhere near, get real you hilarious Muslim clown.


I'm white you idiot, I'm just not a racist EDL cunt like you.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

BoxingAnalyst said:


> I'm white you idiot, I'm just not a racist EDL cunt like you.


You're a Muslim fancying bullshit artist and little toe rag bitch that can't string a coherent sentence together you mean. And change your name from Boxing Analyst to something more appropriate, that name should have you prosecuted under the trade descriptions act. Your 'analysis' of boxing is as ignorant and void of facts as your views on child rape in the UK. You deserve a Klitchko right hand to put you to sleep permanently you oxygen thief.


----------



## Laughing Bruno (Jun 13, 2012)

Luf said:


> I rank on the eye test and there isn't enough to warrant a place in my top ten yet.


heh heh heh


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Of course Wladimir has easily placed himself in the top 10 of all time. I am American, and even I can see all of the horrible bias that surrounds Wladimir. It is really simple... back in the day, heavyweight boxers were heavily promoted, pushed, and hyped up on televison. Especially back when boxing used to be on Network TV, which reaches the most viewers. Even on HBO/Showtime in the 80's and 90's... the heavyweight division was REALLY promoted to American viewers and American heavyweights all had the big hype machine behind them. The kind of hype machine that had people swearing up and down that Michael Grant was the next big thing. Hell, people believed it so much that some people still rate that as one of Lewis' "great" wins. The same hype machine that not too long ago had people believing that Dominick Guinn was a mix of Holyfield and Mike Tyson even though anyone who watches boxing regularly should have been able to tell that he was really lazy, didn't throw enough punches, and lacked mental toughness.

Now, the problem today is that since boxing has become much more of a global sport at the professional level... and the best fighters in the heavyweight division (and many other divisions as well) aren't american... the hype machine has turned off and heavyweight boxing is barely even televised, unless it is some new American hypjob that people buy into for a few months before a Klitschko destroys them or they lose on the way to their title shot.

People honestly confuse star power pushed by television exposure with talent. Heavyweight boxers today are certainly not less talented than before, they just don't have the media hype machine pushing them into homes across the United States. Haven't you ever noticed how American most people's ATG lists are? People are fooled by simple things like Ali telling everyone that he is the greatest over and over... people begin to think that he was the greatest of all time... then, they think well, hell... Frazier beat him, he must be one of the greatest of all time too.... well.... Foreman beat Frazier... he must be one of the greatest of all time too. It's as simple as that. Have you ever watched Joe Frazier? Good fighter, no doubt... but the man was a one armed bandit. Nowhere near one of the greatest fighters of all time. George Foreman easily got outboxed by Jimmy Young, who is comparable to Chris Byrd. It's just silly. 

This is why I stick to rating fighters in their own era. Arguing ATG status is just pointless.


----------



## BoxingAnalyst (Jun 4, 2012)

On the Money said:


> You're a Muslim fancying bullshit artist and little toe rag bitch that can't string a coherent sentence together you mean. And change your name from Boxing Analyst to something more appropriate, that name should have you prosecuted under the trade descriptions act. Your 'analysis' of boxing is as ignorant and void of facts as your views on child rape in the UK. You deserve a Klitchko right hand to put you to sleep permanently you oxygen thief.


Racist cunt. I treat everyone the same, I don't care about there skin colour or politics, you on the other hand are a racist EDL scumbag who thinks it's ok to fuck kids, if your white.


----------



## PivotPunch (Aug 1, 2012)

Maybe I'll get some shit for this but I don't have Frazier in my top 10 Holyfield is arguable he is great because he is also maybe the CW GOAT but at HW alone I'm not sure. What Wlad has is consistency Tyson was great but had a short prime and Wlad was really consistent so I have him in the top 10. His opponents haven't been great he hasn't fought anyone who is near an ATG at HW and los a few times against mediocre opponents so I'm not sure but the fact that he's been the champ for such a long time ranks him pretty high. I'm not sure such a list is very subjective some rank consistency higher other H2h and others the list of opponents someone beat


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Of course Wladimir has easily placed himself in the top 10 of all time. I am American, and even I can see all of the horrible bias that surrounds Wladimir. It is really simple... back in the day, heavyweight boxers were heavily promoted, pushed, and hyped up on televison. Especially back when boxing used to be on Network TV, which reaches the most viewers. Even on HBO/Showtime in the 80's and 90's... the heavyweight division was REALLY promoted to American viewers and American heavyweights all had the big hype machine behind them. The kind of hype machine that had people swearing up and down that Michael Grant was the next big thing. Hell, people believed it so much that some people still rate that as one of Lewis' "great" wins. The same hype machine that not too long ago had people believing that Dominick Guinn was a mix of Holyfield and Mike Tyson even though anyone who watches boxing regularly should have been able to tell that he was really lazy, didn't throw enough punches, and lacked mental toughness.
> 
> Now, the problem today is that since boxing has become much more of a global sport at the professional level... and the best fighters in the heavyweight division (and many other divisions as well) aren't american... the hype machine has turned off and heavyweight boxing is barely even televised, unless it is some new American hypjob that people buy into for a few months before a Klitschko destroys them or they lose on the way to their title shot.
> 
> ...


The reason no TV networks get behind current HWs is because thay are lacking in talent required to draw crowds and dont produce entertaining fights. Wlad was backed big time by HBO untill untill people got sick of his shit boring fights against weak, small opponents. People know talent when they see it. The HW division swims in the shallow end of the talent pool . Your 3 paragraphs of gibberish got debunked in a couple of sentances.


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Evander Holyfield's record at heavyweight is 26-10-2 with 1 no contest.


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Masters said:


> The reason no TV networks get behind current HWs is because thay are lacking in talent required to draw crowds and dont produce entertaining fights. Wlad was backed big time by HBO untill untill people got sick of his shit boring fights against weak, small opponents. People know talent when they see it. The HW division swims in the shallow end of the talent pool . Your 3 paragraphs of gibberish got debunked in a couple of sentances.


Those "weak, small opponents" are the bigger than those "great" heavyweights on everyone's ATG lists. Funny how that works.

Both of the Klitschko's used to give HBO huge ratings when they covered their fights. HBO doesn't want to broadcast from Germany because they aren't running the show over there, but it makes much more sense from Wlad to fight in Germany where he can sell out stadiums and make much more money. They have said countless times that they are at the mercy of whatever station is broadcasting the fight over there, and they clearly don't enjoy piggy backing off of someone else's broadcast. HBO is more than happy to air heavyweights from the United States who have any type of skill whatsoever.

Your comment "people know talent when they see it" is pretty funny. The point is that people in America don't get the chance to see it. Wladimir was the all of the craze as the man to beat Lewis here in America before he lost and Lewis retired. People saw the talent.... and clearly they "knew it". Now, with most of the top challegers coming from countries other than the United States, and those fighters never really being televised by a major network in America... people don't have a chance to see their talent. All they usually hear about is how Wlad dominated another overmatched opponent. It's because Wlad is just that damn good... it doesn't mean that his opponent was not a very talented boxer. Top be at or near the top level of this sport in the ENTIRE WORLD, you have to be extremely talented. Anyone who doesn't grasp something as simple as that doesn't deserve any more of my time.

Also, once again... people are confusing STAR POWER with talent. Thanks for proving my point. Whether or not Wlad is the type of style or star power to force HBO to buckle to his every demand, and force his way into the hearts of people across america has NOTHING to do with his status as an ATG or his talent in the ring.

BTW... you only picked out one sentence of my post... you didn't respond to all three paragraphs of gibberish. I can tell that you aren't interested in the truth though. I won't bother trying to change your mind. Carry on.


----------



## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

Incidentaly, you would be well within your rights to wait until his career was over before asigning him a rank. 

Your eyebrows are not on fire here.


----------



## janitor (Jun 28, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> No.. the fact that he went down 13 times as a Heavyweight would have been well documented. His weak chin would have been exaggerated today to no end and any time someone mentions him as a top 10 ATG...people will say 'dude this guy was down 13 times .. he would have been KTFO by anyone with a punch'.
> 
> In fact being around in the modern era has HELPED his cause because now with video people can make up various excuses for his KD'S and KO losses and walk around pretending his chin is not bad it's just 'average'.


Don't get me wrong here.

A fighter will almost always be rated more highly while their career is still fresh in peoples memories.

What I am saying is that I cannot think of an example of a historic heavyweight, with comparable acomplishments on paper, who is not regarded as a great.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Those "weak, small opponents" are the bigger than those "great" heavyweights on everyone's ATG lists. Funny how that works.
> 
> Both of the Klitschko's used to give HBO huge ratings when they covered their fights. HBO doesn't want to broadcast from Germany because they aren't running the show over there, but it makes much more sense from Wlad to fight in Germany where he can sell out stadiums and make much more money. They have said countless times that they are at the mercy of whatever station is broadcasting the fight over there, and they clearly don't enjoy piggy backing off of someone else's broadcast. HBO is more than happy to air heavyweights from the United States who have any type of skill whatsoever.
> 
> ...


HBO covered Wlads fights when they were in Germany. This was before he got blown out twice and had a terrible fight with Sam peter. Whatever fans he had left were getting bored when he wasn't unifing the belts and was fighting CWs like Castillo and bums Brock and Austn. This was before he put one one of the biggest disgraces in HW championship boxing history in MSG against Sultan. He was responsible for abloishing HW boxing in America after those events and that fight.

HBO will cover fights that command attention. PPV refelcts the interest the boxing public has in a fighter. Wlad never in his life sold PPV. He got dropped from every major sports network he featured on. What sort of active top 10 greatest HW fighter of all time is unable to sell PPV.

The HW division is dead in the water. The names are not there. He spit a terrible division null with talent in half with his brother ,still lost and ducked guys who posed him a risk.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Those "weak, small opponents" are the bigger than those "great" heavyweights on everyone's ATG lists. Funny how that works.
> 
> Both of the Klitschko's used to give HBO huge ratings when they covered their fights. HBO doesn't want to broadcast from Germany because they aren't running the show over there, but it makes much more sense from Wlad to fight in Germany where he can sell out stadiums and make much more money. They have said countless times that they are at the mercy of whatever station is broadcasting the fight over there, and they clearly don't enjoy piggy backing off of someone else's broadcast. HBO is more than happy to air heavyweights from the United States who have any type of skill whatsoever.
> 
> ...


You post a lot of words , but i read nothing.


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Wladimir has not even been knocked down in about 8 years. He has been in 15 Championship fights since then... and he not gone down a single time, let alone been knocked out or beat in any way. People are still claiming that he has a glass jaw? Wow, you people really do have a hard time admitting that you were wrong. If you can't tell the difference between balance, stamina, training issues from earlier in his career and a weak chin..... then you are probably watching the wrong sport. People with glass jaws don't hold titles for this long without even touching the canvas. Especially after they have eaten shots since becoming champ from some very hard punchers. So, either you must think that Wladimir has the greatest defense of all time, or his chin can't be that bad. 

Oh I forgot... you guys just chalk everything up to "overmatched, smaller, weak opponents".:-(


----------



## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

PivotPunch said:


> Maybe I'll get some shit for this but I don't have Frazier in my top 10 Holyfield is arguable he is great because he is also maybe the CW GOAT but at HW alone I'm not sure. What Wlad has is consistency Tyson was great but had a short prime and Wlad was really consistent so I have him in the top 10. His opponents haven't been great he hasn't fought anyone who is near an ATG at HW and los a few times against mediocre opponents so I'm not sure but the fact that he's been the champ for such a long time ranks him pretty high. I'm not sure such a list is very subjective some rank consistency higher other H2h and others the list of opponents someone beat


I think as subjective as lists can be having ten heavies ahead of Joe Frazier really deserves some shit, frankly, Pivot. Having Wladimir Klitschko above Joe Frazier is something I can't even find a way to excuse. I don't see that as a subjectivity issue at all, really. And there's no way you can be historically fair to any established cruisers-turned-heavies without counting their cruiserweight fights. There just isn't. You must count Holyfield's wins at cruiser or your entire ratings of most heavyweights before the inception of the cruiserweight division will fall apart in a logic crisis of epic proportions.


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Masters said:


> You post a lot of words , but i read nothing.


Interesting... considering that you just responded to that same post of mine one post prior. You aren't very good at this, are you?


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Wladimir has not even been knocked down in about 8 years. He has been in 15 Championship fights since then... and he not gone down a single time, let alone been knocked out or beat in any way. People are still claiming that he has a glass jaw? Wow, you people really do have a hard time admitting that you were wrong. If you can't tell the difference between balance, stamina, training issues from earlier in his career and a weak chin..... then you are probably watching the wrong sport. People with glass jaws don't hold titles for this long without even touching the canvas. Especially after they have eaten shots since becoming champ from some very hard punchers. So, either you must think that Wladimir has the greatest defense of all time, or his chin can't be that bad.
> 
> Oh I forgot... you guys just chalk everything up to "overmatched, smaller, weak opponents".:-(


You must be living under a rock because Wlad is nothing but a figure of ridicule with the oppoents he has hand selected as title defences. Maybe that amateur hour shit pleases you but the majority of boxing fans hold the sport to a higher standard. This is why his fights are on obscure tv stations nobody has.
When the HW unified champ of the world cant sell PPV or get on major sport networks , it very clear he's doing more wrong than right.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Masters said:


> You must be living under a rock because Wlad is nothing but a figure of ridicule with the oppoents he has hand selected as title defences. Maybe that amateur hour shit pleases you but the majority of boxing fans hold the sport to a higher standard. This is why his fights are on obscure tv stations nobody has.
> When the HW unified champ of the world cant sell PPV or get on major sport networks , it very clear he's doing more wrong than right.


You think other champions you put above Wlad did not hand pick some opponents? :lol: He has fulfilled his mandatory challenges and fought a few stay busy fights but they were all ranked, same as any long term champ. Povetkin and Haye ran away from him more than once.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

On the Money said:


> You think other champions you put above Wlad did not hand pick some opponents? :lol: He has fulfilled his mandatory challenges and fought a few stay busy fights but they were all ranked, same as any long term champ. Povetkin and Haye ran away from him more than once.


Like who?


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Masters said:


> Like who?


All of them, do you think the likes of David Bey and Marvis Frazier were worth a pop at Holmes in his peak? No they weren't. I suspect the guys you accuse Wlad of hiding behind had better records.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

On the Money said:


> All of them, do you think the likes of David Bey and Marvis Frazier were worth a pop at Holmes in his peak? No they weren't. I suspect the guys you accuse Wlad of hiding behind had better records.


Holmes went thru his dominated run undefeated and beat everyone he was supposed to. Same cant be said about Wlad. What ATG was beaten in they're prime by a journeyman?


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Those "weak, small opponents" are the bigger than those "great" heavyweights on everyone's ATG lists. Funny how that works.
> 
> Both of the Klitschko's used to give HBO huge ratings when they covered their fights. HBO doesn't want to broadcast from Germany because they aren't running the show over there, but it makes much more sense from Wlad to fight in Germany where he can sell out stadiums and make much more money. They have said countless times that they are at the mercy of whatever station is broadcasting the fight over there, and they clearly don't enjoy piggy backing off of someone else's broadcast. HBO is more than happy to air heavyweights from the United States who have any type of skill whatsoever.
> 
> ...


 @Masters :deal
You'll see in a few years time when Wlad opponents and even Wlad opponent's victims unify the belts...


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Masters said:


> Holmes went thru his dominated run undefeated and beat everyone he was supposed to. Same cant be said about Wlad. What ATG was beaten in they're prime by a journeyman?


He wasn't a seasoned champion when Sanders beat him, he was 26 and a raw talent, and calling Sanders a journeymen shows off your ignorance and bitterness. Sanders was a guy who couldn't get a fight because he was a known south paw puncher, the Lion wouldn't fight him. On the Lion, he got knocked out cold as a seasoned champ with a single punch twice, by a crack head and a guy who'd been spanked out by Oleg Maskaev. See, works both ways pal. 14 straight championship victories, 15 come October. Where is your challenger? Deontay? :lol:


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Boxed Ears said:


> I think as subjective as lists can be having ten heavies ahead of Joe Frazier really deserves some shit, frankly, Pivot. Having Wladimir Klitschko above Joe Frazier is something I can't even find a way to excuse. I don't see that as a subjectivity issue at all, really. And there's no way you can be historically fair to any established cruisers-turned-heavies without counting their cruiserweight fights. There just isn't. You must count Holyfield's wins at cruiser or your entire ratings of most heavyweights before the inception of the cruiserweight division will fall apart in a logic crisis of epic proportions.


Very good post combined with viewing the drama Larry's punch caused.

I think Wlad can reasonably be ranked at #9 or #10, yeah. I consider that he is greater than Charles and Walcott now, so he's in the top 15. I think you could very reasonably have him ahead of guys like Jeffries, Johnson, Wills, Dempsey, Liston, I think there are individual arguments for such a rankings, though there are very reasonable counter-arguments too.

Now, once you've established that as fact, I think you can reasonably rank Wlad at #3. That sounds crazy to a lot of people, and let me stress that it's not my position, but i've always felt that in the end, outside of a vastly superior top two, heavyweight rankings are very soft. Almost any ranking is justifiable outside of 1) Ali 2) Louis. My own #3 is currently Marciano.

Now, what keeps Marciano from being unquestionably ranked ahead of Wlad?


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

On the Money said:


> He wasn't a seasoned champion when Sanders beat him, he was 26 and a raw talent, and calling Sanders a journeymen shows off your ignorance and bitterness. Sanders was a guy who couldn't get a fight because he was a known south paw puncher, the Lion wouldn't fight him. On the Lion, he got knocked out cold as a seasoned champ with a single punch twice, by a crack head and a guy who'd been spanked out by Oleg Maskaev. See, works both ways pal. 14 straight championship victories, 15 come October. Where is your challenger? Deontay? :lol:


Purrity was the journeyman. Wlad was already a gold medalist and had the same number of pro fights as Lennox when he lost to MacCall. 
Nobody makes excuses for Lewis for that loss. 
Wlad was beat by a journeyman. He had 10 rounds to put him away but couldn't do it. What ATG was ever beaten by a journeyman?


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

McGrain said:


> Very good post combined with viewing the drama Larry's punch caused.
> 
> I think Wlad can reasonably be ranked at #9 or #10, yeah. I consider that he is greater than Charles and Walcott now, so he's in the top 15. I think you could very reasonably have him ahead of guys like Jeffries, Johnson, Wills, Dempsey, Liston, I think there are individual arguments for such a rankings, though there are very reasonable counter-arguments too.
> 
> ...


Did Marciano spilt his division with a partner? Was he helped by another fighter say at the top?


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

He ran out of gas against Purrity, an older more experienced fighter, who the likes of Antony Joshua would avoid like the plague if Purrity was around today. Purrity was not a journeyman, he was tough as nails, iron chinned, and only stopped once in reality in a 55 fight career. Journeyman don't knock down a peak Tommy Morrison twice during a fight. You haters are pretty sad people.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Did Marciano spilt his division with a partner? Was he helped by another fighter say at the top?


Did Marciano really only box five defences? That's pitiful - five, that's nothing, it's laughable compared to the long-reigning champions.

But yeah, that's the counter-argument. I'd actually take it a step further than you. I don't think Wlad has _any_ defences. I don't think he has ever proved himself the man at HW. He's never beaten his #1 contender to my knowledge. In fact i'm far less concerned by the journeyman that beat _him_ than I am about the ones he's been matching as "champion".

That's the reason I rank him below Marciano and a heavy handful of others. But that is by _my_ criteria. I think you can forge a fine argument for ranking Wlad higher, and I personally don't think that seeing him in the top five would now be ludicrous - though I would always "argue" him lower, for reasons stated.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

On the Money said:


> He ran out of gas against Purrity, an older more experienced fighter, who the likes of Antony Joshua would avoid like the plague if Purrity was around today. Purrity was not a journeyman, he was tough as nails, iron chinned, and only stopped once in reality in a 55 fight career. Journeyman don't knock down a peak Tommy Morrison twice during a fight. You haters are pretty sad people.


He was beaten over 20 times. Unknown club fighters were able to beat him. There is no excuse for Wlad losing.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

McGrain said:


> Did Marciano really only box five defences? That's pitiful - five, that's nothing, it's laughable compared to the long-reigning champions.
> 
> But yeah, that's the counter-argument. I'd actually take it a step further than you. I don't think Wlad has _any_ defences. I don't think he has ever proved himself the man at HW. He's never beaten his #1 contender to my knowledge. In fact i'm far less concerned by the journeyman that beat _him_ than I am about the ones he's been matching as "champion".
> 
> That's the reason I rank him below Marciano and a heavy handful of others. But that is by _my_ criteria. I think you can forge a fine argument for ranking Wlad higher, and I personally don't think that seeing him in the top five would now be ludicrous - though I would always "argue" him lower, for reasons stated.


List who it is you think he's ducked. Give me a laugh.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

On the Money said:


> List who it is you think he's ducked. Give me a laugh.


The fuck? You read my post and thought I had a list of fighter's he's ducked? You've given me a laugh already.

Hero worship needs to be tempered by a bit of common sense. I haven't accused him of "ducking" anybody, nor do i.

What I said was, he has never beaten his number one contender, as the #2 contender, or the #2 contender as the #1 contender. And he hasn't.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Masters said:


> He was beaten over 20 times. Unknown club fighters were able to beat him. There is no excuse for Wlad losing.


He ran out of gas, it happens to young fighters, especially young and inexperienced heavyweights. He was 22 years old, give the guy a break you hater. What do you think he would do to that Purrity today? KO him in 5 rounds. Go away.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

McGrain said:


> Did Marciano really only box five defences? That's pitiful - five, that's nothing, it's laughable compared to the long-reigning champions.
> 
> But yeah, that's the counter-argument. I'd actually take it a step further than you. I don't think Wlad has _any_ defences. I don't think he has ever proved himself the man at HW. He's never beaten his #1 contender to my knowledge. In fact i'm far less concerned by the journeyman that beat _him_ than I am about the ones he's been matching as "champion".
> 
> That's the reason I rank him below Marciano and a heavy handful of others. But that is by _my_ criteria. I think you can forge a fine argument for ranking Wlad higher, and I personally don't think that seeing him in the top five would now be ludicrous - though I would always "argue" him lower, for reasons stated.


How many belts were back then? There was only one title to win. Wlad beat just 5 world champs. Most who came up from a lower division.
He stays at the top because he doesn't have to fight his no.1 and still hasn't fought his no.2.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

McGrain said:


> The fuck? You read my post and thought I had a list of fighter's he's ducked? You've given me a laugh already.
> 
> Hero worship needs to be tempered by a bit of common sense. I haven't accused him of "ducking" anybody, nor do i.
> 
> What I said was, he has never beaten his number one contender, as the #2 contender, or the #2 contender as the #1 contender. And he hasn't.


You want him to fight Vitali, that's your point? atsch


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

On the Money said:


> He ran out of gas, it happens to young fighters, especially young and inexperienced heavyweights. He was 22 years old, give the guy a break you hater. What do you think he would do to that Purrity today? KO him in 5 rounds. Go away.


Or he was punched out of gas. He was bested and his brother had to avenge the loss. Call it hating. Its called reality.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> How many belts were back then? There was only one title to win. Wlad beat just 5 world champs. Most who came up from a lower division.
> He stays at the top because he doesn't have to fight his no.1 and still hasn't fought his no.2.


Sure, but the point i was making to you was one of criteria. Longevity is a huge factor for many in obtaining greatness. Wladimir has been in the top two in the division for a huge number of years now and the #1 for most of that spell. Wladimir has beaten more top contenders than Marciano, staged more "defences" than Marciano, for those who recognise them as such, and beaten much bigger, rangier opponents. It can be argued with ease that he has beaten better heavyweights than Marciano.

So as far as cornerstone arguments go, you have head to head superiority, competition, longevity, title defences - not bad at all.

Toss in the fact that as many people have the same attitude you do to Wlad, where Marciano is concerned, and you are off to a great start.

If you, like me, think Wlad has staged zero defences, make no mistake that we are in a minority.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

On the Money said:


> You want him to fight Vitali, that's your point? atsch


:lol:no. You're silly.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Masters said:


> Or he was punched out of gas. He was bested and his brother had to avenge the loss. Call it hating. Its called reality.


I call it meaningless and no reflection on his career at all. You judge the man at his peak and he's had 14 straight title wins, third longest in history. If you boil down you're argument (or hate) it means no fighter with an early loss should be ranked in the all time great list. Bullshit to suit your ignorance.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

McGrain said:


> Sure, but the point i was making to you was one of criteria. Longevity is a huge factor for many in obtaining greatness. Wladimir has been in the top two in the division for a huge number of years now and the #1 for most of that spell. Wladimir has beaten more top contenders than Marciano, staged more "defences" than Marciano, for those who recognise them as such, and beaten much bigger, rangier opponents. It can be argued with ease that he has beaten better heavyweights than Marciano.
> 
> So as far as cornerstone arguments go, you have head to head superiority, competition, longevity, title defences - not bad at all.
> 
> ...


Michalczewski was lineal LHW who made over 20 title defences. Thats longevity and dominance. Wheres his ATG standing? Its not there because like Wlad the big names and defining career moments dont exist along with not fighting the no.1 and 2s of his division.

Marciano has ATG and Hall of fame fighters on his record. His record dumps on Wlads and going undefeated blows away anything Wlad has going for him.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

On the Money said:


> I call it meaningless and no reflection on his career at all. You judge the man at his peak and he's had 14 straight title wins, third longest in history. If you boil down you're argument (or hate) it means no fighter with an early loss should be ranked in the all time great list. Bullshit to suit your ignorance.


So Lewis can scrub the loss to Macall of his record as well can he?


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Michalczewski was lineal LHW who made over 20 title defences. Thats longevity and dominance. Wheres his ATG standing?


What's the relevance of that? If he doesn't rank, Wlad still can.



> Its not there because like Wlad the big names and defining career moments dont exist.


So?



> Marciano has ATG and Hall of fame fighters on his record.


Old, past-prime light-heavies and cruisers, depending upon who you speak to. Lebedev has Toney and Jones.



> His record dumps on Wlads


Most of this is devils' advocate, but absolutely _not_ in this case. Marciano's best win may be Archie Moore, an old man at an enormous stylistic advantage. I think a lot Wlad opponents would have beaten old Moore (but by no means all of them). He has a huge swathe of defeated ranked contenders, and, once again, the prohibitive size of most of those men mean they would have been a huge factor in Marciano's own division almost beyond question. These are factors worthy of consideration, that _are_ considered by many. Rocky might have a better record, but saying it "dumps" on Wlad's is ludicrous.



> and going undefeated blows away anything Wlad has going for him.


That's a highly disputable point of view, and nothing more.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> What's the relevance of that? If he doesn't rank, Wlad still can.


It proves there's more to prove than defending a title agaisnt underwhelming opposition



> I think a lot Wlad opponents would have beaten old Moore


Fanstay h2h match ups dont factor into evaluating greatness.



> So?


His worth as a great fighter against another great fighter is unproven


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

Masters said:


> How many belts were back then? There was only one title to win. Wlad beat just 5 world champs. Most who came up from a lower division.
> He stays at the top because he doesn't have to fight his no.1 and still hasn't fought his no.2.


Most? Troll! You wait just a few years, honestly...


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Masters said:


> So Lewis can scrub the loss to Macall of his record as well can he?


No he can't, was his fourth WBC defence and he was at peak, 29 years old, had been a pro five years, not two like Wlad vs Purrity.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> It proves there's more to prove than defending a title agaisnt underwhelming opposition


But it doesn't prove that Wlad should be ranked lower. Firstly, they are in different divisions, one historically amongst the very strongest, one historically amongst the very weakest, second it doesn't take into account their relative opposition. It basically doesn't prove anything apart from to highlight the fact that Wlad is much more widely respected and probably with good reason.



> Fanstay h2h match ups dont factor into evaluating greatness.


For you, which seems to be the problem here. You seem to be very blinkered as regards to alternative points of view. @LUFCrazy _only_ ranks based upon fantasy h2h match ups. Others make skillset a huge part of their rankings.

So yeah, they do.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

On the Money said:


> No he can't, was his fourth WBC defence and he was at peak, 29 years old, had been a pro five years, not two like Wlad vs Purrity.


Lewis had 24 pro fights and so did Wlad.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

On the Money said:


> No he can't, was his fourth WBC defence and he was at peak, 29 years old, had been a pro five years, not two like Wlad vs Purrity.


But wouldn't you agree that the crucial factor here is that Wlad improved dramatically after that loss?

And wouldn't you concede the same thing where Lewis is concerned?


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

McGrain said:


> But wouldn't you agree that the crucial factor here is that Wlad improved dramatically after that loss?
> 
> And wouldn't you concede the same thing where Lewis is concerned?


Wlad didn't radically improve until Steward came along, till then he was definitely a work in progress. Lewis did improve, even with his chin issue, it's a shame for him he was so poor in the first Rahman fight. One thing you can't accuse Wlad of is taking any challenge lightly, a Rahman type loss could easily happen to him if he did.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

McGrain said:


> But it doesn't prove that Wlad should be ranked lower. Firstly, they are in different divisions, one historically amongst the very strongest, one historically amongst the very weakest, second it doesn't take into account their relative opposition. It basically doesn't prove anything apart from to highlight the fact that Wlad is much more widely respected and probably with good reason.
> 
> For you, which seems to be the problem here. You seem to be very blinkered as regards to alternative points of view. @LUFCrazy _only_ ranks based upon fantasy h2h match ups. Others make skillset a huge part of their rankings.
> 
> So yeah, they do.


Calzaghe satyed at home making 19 defences of his title. Wlad is doing the same now , milking it in Germany. Greatness wont fall upon either men for that.
Jones Jr blows both of them out of the water in terms of accomplishments but is heavily penalised for not having the names.
To look at Wlads career there is nothing memorable that that will hold the test of time.

Lufcrazy get all his predictions wrong and thought Solis was going to beat Vitali. H2h is just for fum and for debate. It absolutely does not factor into judging a fighter's worth.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Calzaghe satyed at home making 19 defences of his title.


Great fighter.



> Wlad is doing the same now , milking it in Germany.


Do you think Holmes milked it in America?



> Greatness wont fall upon either men for that.


Disagree, in fact i'd say the book is already closed on both of them if Wlad were to retire without another loss.

Calaghe will be regarded as one of the greatest SMW's in history and Wlad is already amongst the fifteen greatest heavies, almost inarguably.



> Jones Jr blows both of them out of the water in terms of accomplishments but is heavily penalised for not having the names.


By who? I rank him top 30 ATG personally, Ring ranked him top 50 as does About, even mad old Burt Sugar saw him as top 100. What you are saying amounts to "if Roy had beaten more great fighters he would be greater", which is absolutely a given, so much so that it is basically a meaningless statement.



> To look at Wlads career there is nothing memorable that that will hold the test of time.


He's the best heavyweight post-Lewis, and Lewis retired ten years ago. That alone makes him hugely relevant, makes him memorable, and is a literal guarantee that he will hold the test of time. There is nobody in the next generation who looks anything like as good as him, which makes it very possible that he will be the best heavy between 2003 and 2023. That remains to be seen, however.



> Lufcrazy get all his predictions wrongp


I don't care. You claimed that h2h fantasty fights had nothing to do with greatness. I am pointing out to you that this is completely wrong, as wrong as could be, and is not in any way true. Luf was a small part of the reason why.



> It absolutely does not factor into judging a fighter's worth.


Total nonsense. I myself use it as a factor. Don't talk like your criteria is the be all and end all, it is patently untrue and a complete waste of my time.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Inarguably amongst the fifteen greatest heavies? You got a credible source to prove that? Another loss or failure to fight another ranked contender will most certainly exculde him from any future atg lists. 

Fighters can only be ranked on what they achieved , not on what some delusional , fanboys think they could of done. To rank somebody higher because you they could of won , an opinion that could be 50/50 amongst fans is a load of nonsense.
Luf ranks on who he thinks if a better fighter in terms of skills, power , defence etc.

Theres no doubt Marciano was a better fighter than Wlad. With his size he had to overcome the odds. He had to take the fight to his opponent everytime with his short reach and never once lost. It takes more of a fighter to do that that just feed smaller guys a jab all night.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Inarguably amongst the fifteen greatest heavies? You got a credible source to prove that?


Yeah, the same one you've used to exclude all h2h and skillset considerations from ATG rankings, compare a light-heavyweight title run to a heavyweight one and preclude Calzaghe from greatness because he did most of his boxing at home and ignore the fact that most great boxers do their boxing at home. So, no, in a word.



> Another loss or failure to fight another ranked contender will most certainly exculde him from any future atg lists.


Again, this is nonsense. Failure to fight a ranked contender will exclude him from future ATG lists? Even another loss is malleable if it comes to a superb fighter when he is 43.



> Fighters can only be ranked on what they achieved , not on what some delusional , fanboys think they could of done.


Delusional fans like Larry Holmes? That is exactly how he seems to rank fighters. People who like a little h2h or ability aren't "delusional fanboys", that's a very extreme view.



> To rank somebody higher because you they could of won , an opinion that could be 50/50 amongst fans is a load of nonsense.


I think it's a lot more involved than "could of won". It involves appraising a fighter against the wider field in a given division. Many serious historians i've spoken with regard it as an important factor in fact the ranking system you are decribing - purely and entirely devoid of "how good" considerations and based purely upon achievements - i would say that is the rarest form of ranking.

But if you personally find it ridiculous, that's fine. Writing of lists by venerable ringsiders like Charley Rose because you find it ridiculous, that's silly.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> That alone makes him hugely relevant, makes him memorable, and is a literal guarantee that he will hold the test of time.


The division itself isn't revelant or will be memorable. Neither will Wlad. If he's not revalant now, he will be even less so when he retires.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> Again, this is nonsense. Failure to fight a ranked contender will exclude him from future ATG lists? Even another loss is malleable if it comes to a superb fighter when he is 43.


Far from nonsene. Given his recent run of poor unraked opppoents , failure to fight anybody highly ranked form now till he retire or if he suffers another loss will just prove he was only good for beating bottom feeders. Poor argument.



> Delusional fans like Larry Holmes? That is exactly how he seems to rank fighters. People who like a little h2h or ability aren't "delusional fanboys", that's a very extreme view.


Holmes said Lewis had no jab. Do you agree with him?



> I think it's a lot more involved than "could of won". It involves appraising a fighter against the wider field in a given division. Many serious historians i've spoken with regard it as an important factor in fact the ranking system you are decribing - purely and entirely devoid of "how good" considerations and based purely upon achievements - i would say that is the rarest form of ranking


Its just speculation for the sake of debate and more a method of comparing fighters. Its not a serious evaluation of a fighter as the outcome never happened.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Far from nonsene. Given his recent run of poor unraked opppoents , failure to fight anybody highly ranked form now till he retire or if he suffers another loss will just prove he was only good for beating bottom feeders. Poor argument.


Pardon me, but the argument that Wlad will be "demoted" for what he _doesn't_ do is ludicrous. It didn't happen to Eubank, it didn't happen to Chavez and it won't happen to Wlad. If he continues to fail to fight a #1 contender, that will leave _my _concerns unaddressed, but they remain unaddressed currently. If he goes unbeaten until he retires without adding another significant scalp he will be judged on what he has done up until this point - nobody (apart from you) will rank him on what he hasn't done. Jack Dempsey didn't meet his #1 contender either (unless you count Wills) and he's great.



> Holmes said Lewis had no jab. Do you agree with him?


No. Do you consider him a "deluded fan boy" or would you concede he has some measure of expertise?



> Its just speculation for the sake of debate and more a method of comparing fighters. Its not a serious evaluation of a fighter as the outcome never happened.


Well men much more serious than you use it in detail, Mike Casey, Charley Rose and Larry Holmes being three fine examples.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> The division itself isn't revelant or will be memorable. Neither will Wlad. If he's not revalant now, he will be even less so when he retires.


This is just stupidity. You think this is the weakest heavyweight division of all time by such distance that it _isn't relevant_ in the history of that division?

Dino, you're drunk.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> If he goes unbeaten until he retires without adding another significant scalp he will be judged on what he has done up until this point - nobody (apart from you) will rank him on what he hasn't done


So Maymeather for his last 6 oppoents could select the 6 weakest WW around ,avoid Canelo and all the other high ranked contenders and nobody would judge him harshly for it.
Avoiding Canelo or Cotto or whoever would demote him significantly for what he hasn't done and Wlad is no different. Failure to fight Povektin or Pulev will have a negative effect on his legacy, especially given the easy fights he has been feasting on. Not sure you know whats going on here.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> So Maymeather for his last 6 oppoents could select the 6 weakest WW around ,avoid Canelo and all the other high ranked contenders and nobody would judge him harshly for it.


People would hate him for it, but historically he would be judged for what he did, rather than what he didn't. He will be judged on the weights he fought at and the fighters he beat there. History has proven this completely.

But this is as extreme a position as it is possible to take, as extreme an example as it is possible to offer on something that isn't going to happen anyway.



> Avoiding Canelo or Cotto or whoever would demote him significantly for what he hasn't done and Wlad is no different. Failure to fight Povektin or Pulev will have a negative effect on his legacy, especially given the easy fights he has been feasting on. Not sure you know whats going on here.


I already said his legacy is affected by his failure to begin a new lineage from the most direct point of view. What you are saying is he will move down from where he is NOW due to failure to fight. In fact, this just prevents him moving UP. And i am absolutely sure you don't know what's going on here.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> but historically he would be judged for what he did, rather than what he didn't


You claimed Dempsey was judged on what he didn't do a couple of posts back, so you are twisting things to suit your argument. I dont think Jack avoided anybody but thats another debate.



> He will be judged on the weights he fought at and the fighters he beat there


If Wlad does not fight the big names its a step down the legacy ladder. There is no excuse. Its his responsibility as champ, to fans and to boxing to delivier the best fights that can be made. He's already had to many free passes throughout his career by having a brother rematch his loses and fight the guys he ducked. Theres names out there and fights to be made but he's wasting everybodys time fighting his sparring partners.



> What you are saying is he will move down from where he is NOW due to failure to fight. In fact, this just prevents him moving UP


Wlad is not ranked anywhere right now in terms of legacy. A fighter has to retire first. When its all said and done , that is when he will be put in place. Continuing to avoid threats or suffering another loss will absolutely have major setbacks on his legacy.


----------



## Rico (Jun 3, 2013)

This question can't be answered right now. If he fights to 40 and gets 20 defenses then it can be discussed. How can you discuss this about a fighter than isn't done yet? He could lose in his next fight for all we know or he could fight to 42 and never lose again.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

Masters said:


> Lewis had 24 pro fights and so did Wlad.


Lewis had 29 pro fights, you can't even get your half backed arguments right. Regardless, he was sparked out by one shot age 29, not 22!, at peak in a fourth WBC defence with a five year pro career already behind him. No comparison with the Klit vs Purrity fight at all in any respect: age, experience or the manner of the defeat.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> You claimed Dempsey was judged on what he didn't do a couple of posts back, so you are twisting things to suit your argument.


The arguments are absolutely identical.

Never meeting the #1 contender was a disaster for Dempsey's legacy. Never meeting the #1 contender was a disaster for Wlad's legacy. I've been clear on both points, and have no idea why you think this would prove a point on your side of this argument.



> If Wlad does not fight the big names its a step down the legacy ladder.


It's credit that is not reaped, it is not a step down. I can see you can't see the difference, but that doesn't mean there isn't one, it just means that you don't understand.



> Wlad is not ranked anywhere right now in terms of legacy.


By _you_. Twenty-four people have voted here to say that he's already top 10, the rest also have their own thoughts on his legacy.

You're cartoonish hatred for this fighter has made me a Wlad apologist in this thread. But as I said at the top, I'm harder on his legacy than almost anyone I know, and I don't rank him top 10. Where does that put you?


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> You're cartoonish hatred for this fighter has made me a Wlad apologist in this thread


This right here is what I assumed all along. Your argument has amassed to besting me by whatever means possible opposed to acknowledging the glaring flaws with Wladimir and judging him accordingly.



> It's credit that is not reaped, it is not a step down. I can see you can't see the difference, but that doesn't mean there isn't one, it just means that you don't understand.


I can see see the difference. The difference is that its your opinion and one i dont agree with, doesn't mean i dont understand your point. . Not fighting the big names when he's on top is detrimental to his legacy. Finishing up strong is one of the best moves a fighter can make. His current career is an embarrassment to HW championship boxing. There is no disputing that.


> I'm harder on his legacy than almost anyone I know


You're not , at all. You're just trying to give your argument an extra dimension of objectivity.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> This right here is what I assumed all along. Your argument has amassed to besting me by whatever means possible opposed to acknowledging the glaring flaws with Wladimir and judging him accordingly.


You "best" yourself. Everyone at the most extreme end of an argument does. Nobody takes you seriously where Wlad is concerned.



> I can see see the difference. The difference is that its your opinion and one i dont agree with, doesn't mean i dont understand your point.


Explain it to me please?



> You're not , at all. You're just trying to give your argument an extra dimension of objectivity.


I consider that he hasn't posted a single defence of the legitimate HW championship of the world. That puts me in a minority of Wladimir critics that only you could make look mainstream. Basically, you're a Klitschko-Nazi.


----------



## Michael (Jun 8, 2012)

No he hasnt, and he never will. He's top 15 for me and thats as good as its going to get for him. The opposition simply doesn't exist at the moment to push him into the upper echelons of ATG's, and tbh I dont even think he's as good as the majority of them anyways. Still he;s done better than anyone a decade ago would have predicted.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Sportofkings said:


> No he hasnt, and he never will. He's top 15 for me and thats as good as its going to get for him. The opposition simply doesn't exist at the moment to push him into the upper echelons of ATG's, and tbh I dont even think he's as good as the majority of them anyways. Still he;s done better than anyone a decade ago would have predicted.


Let me ask - if he beat 10 more fighters, 8 of them ranked, none of them special, then retired, how far up would that move him for you?


----------



## BUMPY (Jul 26, 2012)

I dunno man, hoever effective he may be, his opposition has been extremely poor. I tend to think no.


----------



## sim_reiss (Jun 6, 2012)

I base it on resume rather than ability and a number of heavyweights have a better collection of wins than Wlad. There's been a long period without any threats to his dominance, not just an absence of fighters who might beat him but an absence of fighters who can even give him a decent fight. That's half down to him and half down to an abysmal pool of heavyweights. The fact that David Haye has been a lot of people's no 3 for a fair few years says it all...


----------



## BUMPY (Jul 26, 2012)

If you rank him based on resume :lol:


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> Nobody takes you seriously where Wlad is concerned.


There's a few. Where Wlad is concerned ,its mainly his fans who post about him, so the majority of people i have to contend with are his fans. Most boxing fans aren't that interested in k2.



> Explain it to me please?


You think Wlad has already established himself as an ATG , you would make an argument for him sitting around the 10-15 mark, and what ever good achievements he makes in the future will move him up the ladder. But you think he cant be dropped from his standing even if he suffers a loss or avoids the names that are willing to fight him now. 
Thats a false assessment. He doesn't have an ATG standing right now and his career will be evaluated upon completion. What happens from now forth will most certainly hinder or excel his position. My guess is is the former.


> you're a Klitschko-Nazi


My disdain for Wlad is completely justifiable. I stopped being a fan after he ducked Chisora and fought Mormek. He looks like shit in the ring and avoids risky fights, than you have people claiming he's a top 5 ATG. I know what greatness looks like and Wladimir K comes nowhere close.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> You think Wlad has already established himself as an ATG , you would make an argument for him sitting around the 10-15 mark, and what ever good achievements he makes in the future will move him up the ladder. But you think he cant be dropped from his standing even if he suffers a loss or avoids the names that willing to fight him now.


That is incorrect. Of course a loss would see him drop don the ladder. That isn't even what I was asking you, but it underlines your frantic assessment of what you have incorrectly assessed as a "pro Wlad" position.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

McGrain said:


> That is incorrect. Of course a loss would see him drop don the ladder. That isn't even what I was asking you, but it underlines your frantic assessment of what you have incorrectly assessed as a "pro Wlad" position.


What I said is exactly what you typed into the post boxes.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> What I said is exactly what you typed into the post boxes.


Not it's not. If you want, you can quote the relevant spots, but you are incorrect. I think I may have said that a loss would be "malleable" if it came in his last fight and he were aged 43, but pretending I said that a loss wouldn't affect his standing is spastic.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

I said this- Continuing to avoid threats or suffering another loss will absolutely have major setbacks on his legacy.

And you retorted with this.



> It's credit that is not reaped, it is not a step down.


----------



## Michael (Jun 8, 2012)

McGrain said:


> Let me ask - if he beat 10 more fighters, 8 of them ranked, none of them special, then retired, how far up would that move him for you?


I'll have to think about that, seeing as how im usually shit at raking fighters and making lists. But I will say that the ranked fighters today arent really that much better than the likes of Pianenta and Thompson, and I still couldnt rank him any higher than maybe 11 or 12 on an ATG list, even with 8 more decent wins. Fpr me to stick Wlad in with the pantheon of greats in the top 10, id have to see him with a couple of really top quality wins. Not that beating 4 or five amazing fighters is the only way to build a top resume, thats what someone like Sugar Ray Leonard did, had 35 odd fights, beat four or five top quality fighters and was forever known as a bonefide high ranked ATG. Having signature wins over the likes of Haye, Byrd, Chagaev and Povetkin are not all that bad either though, they just arent enough. And of course beating loads of competition, clearly and consistently and making 20 plus title defences cant be ignored either, and its whats gotten Wald to where he is now imo.

Still the current top 10 ATG heavyweights are all amazingly good fighters, with a lot of top wins, and Wald suffers in his ranking because of the sheer depth historically in the division. Realistically, I cant see the Ali's, Louis's, Lewis's, Tyson's, Holmes, Fraziers and Foremans being shunted out of their lofty top position by anyone, anytime soon, not by Wlad. Just my two cents though.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> I said this- Continuing to avoid threats or suffering another loss will absolutely have major setbacks on his legacy.
> 
> And you retorted with this.


Stop wasting my fucking time you total bullshitter.

I quoted you:



masters said:


> If Wlad does not fight the big names its a step down the legacy ladder.


And my reply to THAT SPECIFICALLY was:



McGrain said:


> It's credit that is not reaped, it is not a step down.


At no point in the SPECIFICS of this exchange was a loss mentioned.

I remember some deeply bizarre exchanges between you and other posters on this subject on ESB, but we had never talked, so I don't know if you are mis-understanding on purpose, or just stupid, but if it's the former, please don't waste my time.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Sportofkings said:


> I'll have to think about that, seeing as how im usually shit at raking fighters and making lists. But I will say that the ranked fighters today arent really that much better than the likes of Pianenta and Thompson, and I still couldnt rank him any higher than maybe 11 or 12 on an ATG list, even with 8 more decent wins for me to stick Wlad in with the pantheon of greats in the top 10, id have to see him with a couple of really top quality wins. Not that beating 4 or four amazing fighters is the only way to build a top resume, thats what someone like Suagr Ray Leonard did, had 35 odd fights, beat four or five top quality fighters and was forever known as a bonefide high ranked ATG. Having signature wins over the likes of Haye, Byrd, Chagaev and Povetkin are not all that bad either though, they just arent enough. And of course beating loads of competition, clearly and consistently and making 20 plus title defences cant be ignored either, and its whats gotten Wald to where he is now imo.
> 
> Still the current top 10 ATG heavyweights are all amazingly good fighters, with a lot of top wins, and Wald suffers in his ranking because of the sheer depth historically in the division. Realistically, I cant see the Ali's, Louis's, Lewis's, Tyson's, Holmes, Fraziers and Foremans being shunted out of their lofty top position by anyone, anytime soon, not by Wlad. Just my two cents though.


I think that's mostly fair enough. Do you consider him The Champion, or does that type of thing not bother you?


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> Even another loss is malleable if it comes to a superb fighter when he is 43.


That there practically suggests a current loss to any of the ranked guys would not be that damaging to his career. You're getting angry now and making it personal. Signs of failure.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> That there practically suggests a current loss to any of the ranked guys would not be that damaging to his career.


How can the loss be "current" when I specifically name a time six years in the future? :lol:

Again, you are rather pitifully quoting me out of context. What I said:



McGrain said:


> Failure to fight a ranked contender will exclude him from future ATG lists? Even another loss is malleable if it comes to a superb fighter when he is 43.


What I said was that even a loss might not exclude him from future ATG lists (Which you were insisting upon). This is completely different to what you are accusing me of. For some bizarre reason :lol:



> You're getting angry now and making it personal. Signs of failure.


Yeah, if someone lies about what i say, quotes me out of context, accuses me of things that aren't true all to score points on an internet forum and that makes me angry, iv'e failed :lol:

But I get it now that you are trolling, so I suppose in a sense you do "win" by making me cross.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

I took everything you said as a whole, not just refrained in the context of one post. 
You said a loss in the future would be negated if it were to a superb fighter. What happens if he lose to Povektin or Fury. They are not superb fighters. Would a loss to either of them be malleable?


----------



## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

I bet alot of people saying no have dempsey in there top ten. Lol


----------



## charlie harper (May 18, 2013)

Yes he should be inside the top10. Bottom half. Obviously above Dempsey, Tunney, Jersey Joe Walcott; arguably above Liston, Tyson and even Holyfield.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Of course Wladimir has easily placed himself in the top 10 of all time. I am American, and even I can see all of the horrible bias that surrounds Wladimir. It is really simple... back in the day, heavyweight boxers were heavily promoted, pushed, and hyped up on televison. Especially back when boxing used to be on Network TV, which reaches the most viewers. Even on HBO/Showtime in the 80's and 90's... the heavyweight division was REALLY promoted to American viewers and American heavyweights all had the big hype machine behind them. The kind of hype machine that had people swearing up and down that Michael Grant was the next big thing. Hell, people believed it so much that some people still rate that as one of Lewis' "great" wins. The same hype machine that not too long ago had people believing that Dominick Guinn was a mix of Holyfield and Mike Tyson even though anyone who watches boxing regularly should have been able to tell that he was really lazy, didn't throw enough punches, and lacked mental toughness.
> 
> Now, the problem today is that since boxing has become much more of a global sport at the professional level... and the best fighters in the heavyweight division (and many other divisions as well) aren't american... the hype machine has turned off and heavyweight boxing is barely even televised, unless it is some new American hypjob that people buy into for a few months before a Klitschko destroys them or they lose on the way to their title shot.
> 
> ...


What a complete utter waste of air you are. You should go back to eating feces.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Wladimir never fought Vitali. Who was the #2 of his era. The difference between that and the Floyd-Pac situation is Floyd and Pac have had multiple elite fighters around their weight classes they can build resumes off of.. Wladmir and Vitali don't.

Wladimir would have been a significant under dog against Vitali from 08-10. Wladimir's entire reign consist of not having to fight his #2.. 

I noticed a lot of Wladimir fans are judging his shit resume based on 'oh well he ruined those fighters that could have been great'. Like who?

I want somebody to list me Wladimir's top 10 wins and let's take a real close look at those 10 fighters.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

On the Money said:


> Lewis had 29 pro fights, you can't even get your half backed arguments right. Regardless, he was sparked out by one shot age 29, not 22!, at peak in a fourth WBC defence with a five year pro career already behind him. No comparison with the Klit vs Purrity fight at all in any respect: age, experience or the manner of the defeat.


How was he sparked out against Mccall? That was a debatable stoppage. Let me ask you something ******. Why do you bash Lewis every time someone mention Wlad or Vitali. Are you a racist? Are you a butt hurt fucking piece of shit waste of space bitch?

If you love the Ukraine so much, why not get down on your *** knees and slowly crawl your way from Scotland all the way to the homeland of your heroes.
I'm sure you'll enjoy the 11th world living they got there.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> How was he sparked out against Mccall? That was a debatable stoppage. Let me ask you something ******. Why do you bash Lewis every time someone mention Wlad or Vitali. Are you a racist? Are you a butt hurt fucking piece of shit waste of space bitch?
> 
> If you love the Ukraine so much, why not get down on your *** knees and slowly crawl your way from Scotland all the way to the homeland of your heroes.
> I'm sure you'll enjoy the 11th world living they got there.


I'm sure your trainer can give you an insight into what Ukraine is really like, eh?


----------



## CHEF (May 20, 2013)

Masters said:


> The division itself isn't revelant or will be memorable. Neither will Wlad. If he's not revalant now, he will be even less so when he retires.


you must be joking.

He will be like lewis. Lewis was appreciated more after he retired and people looked back at his entire body of work.... Same will happen with Wladimir

BTW, to say "wlad is not relevant now" is just a stupid comment


----------



## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm going to be honest

Its easy to look back at Lewis and appreciate him more when we can look at his resume and see wins over

Holyfield
Mercer
Bruno
Tua
Vitaly
Morrison
Rahman
Tyson
Golota
Briggs
Grant

Etc

That's an impressive body of work. If you do a who's who in the HW division in the last 50 years, several of the most notable names, and names who are synonymous with success in the HW division, have been beaten by Lewis.

You can't say the same of Wlad. You can't look back at his resume and say, he beat HIM.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

CHEF said:


> you must be joking.
> 
> He will be like lewis. Lewis was appreciated more after he retired and people looked back at his entire body of work.... Same will happen with Wladimir
> 
> BTW, to say "wlad is not relevant now" is just a stupid comment


Not true. Lewis was big business throughtout his entire career. Lewis was a household name. Wlad is not.

Lewis sold PPV in the States as far back as the Tony Tucker fight. Wlad never sold PPV in his life.

When Lewis fought Holyfield , thousands and thousands of British fans travelled to support him. If Wlad has another fight in the US will thousands of fans travel from Germany to support him? Not likely. When Wlad fought in America , people walked out.

If Wlad was relevant now he wouldn't of been dropped by all the major sport networks.


----------



## Brighton Bomber (May 25, 2013)

CHEF said:


> you must be joking.
> 
> He will be like lewis. Lewis was appreciated more after he retired and people looked back at his entire body of work.... Same will happen with Wladimir
> 
> BTW, to say "wlad is not relevant now" is just a stupid comment


Wlad is clearly relevant now within the heavyweight division to say otherwise is foolish, but it's the heavyweight division itself that is less relevant than it used to be which may prove to be Wlad's biggest problem when his legacy is judged by future fans. There has never been so little interest in the division, it has always been the marquee division but now it's seen as a very weak division by most. Most sports fan who are not hardcore boxing fans don't know who the champion even is.

Wlad is about to get his biggest payday with a crazy bid of $23 million when K2 only believed the fight was worth $7 million. Main events bid $50 million for Tyson/Holyfield in the early 90's, Lewis made $8-10 million against Tucker, clearly interest in the division on a world level is at an all time low. Wlad's a big fish in very little pond. If Wlad fought in a division that didn't have such a glorious history with so many great champions maybe he would be thought in a better light.

Of course he maybe more highly regarded after he retires, it happened with Holmes and Lewis who were not very popular champions. But that will depend upon the division that follows, the era's after Lewis and Holmes were perceived as weak so it helped them. If the era is strong after Wlad then history will not be kind to him.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Brighton Bomber said:


> Wlad is clearly relevant now within the heavyweight division to say otherwise is foolish, but it's the heavyweight division itself that is less relevant than it used to be which may prove to be Wlad's biggest problem when his legacy is judged by future fans. There has never been so little interest in the division, it has always been the marquee division but now it's seen as a very weak division by most. Most sports fan who are not hardcore boxing fans don't know who the champion even is.
> 
> Wlad is about to get his biggest payday with a crazy bid of $23 million when K2 only believed the fight was worth $7 million. Main events bid $50 million for Tyson/Holyfield in the early 90's, Lewis made $8-10 million against Tucker, clearly interest in the division on a world level is at an all time low. Wlad's a big fish in very little pond. If Wlad fought in a division that didn't have such a glorious history with so many great champions maybe he would be thought in a better light.
> 
> Of course he maybe more highly regarded after he retires, it happened with Holmes and Lewis who were not very popular champions. But that will depend upon the division that follows, the era's after Lewis and Holmes were perceived as weak so it helped them. If the era is strong after Wlad then history will not be kind to him.


Looks like Skittlez constant preaching on ESB has not gone unnoticed. Great paragraph.

The only thing I wanted to add is that the 90's paydays were even bigger than you listed due to adjusted inflation.


----------



## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

McGrain said:


> People would hate him for it, *but historically he would be judged for what he did, rather than what he didn't*. He will be judged on the weights he fought at and the fighters he beat there. History has proven this completely.
> 
> But this is as extreme a position as it is possible to take, as extreme an example as it is possible to offer on something that isn't going to happen anyway.
> 
> I already said his legacy is affected by his failure to begin a new lineage from the most direct point of view. What you are saying is he will move down from where he is NOW due to failure to fight. In fact, this just prevents him moving UP. And i am absolutely sure you don't know what's going on here.


To an extent, people still bang on about Boa avoiding Lewis (20 years ago), Leonard avoiding Pryor (35years ago), Robinson avoiding Burley (70 ears ago), Johnson avoiding Langford (90 years ago) - not that all of those were even true, viable or significant but you get the point, people often hold these things against boxers, often years after they are dead or by people who weren't even born.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Chatty said:


> To an extent, people still bang on about Boa avoiding Lewis (20 years ago), Leonard avoiding Pryor (35years ago), Robinson avoiding Burley (70 ears ago), Johnson avoiding Langford (90 years ago) - not that all of those were even true, viable or significant but you get the point, people often hold these things against boxers, often years after they are dead or by people who weren't even born.


Well i would say this _is_ about internet fan boys. But are you confusing talking about it/hating it/ with _penalising people in rankings_? Rank people on what they did/how complete their title runs were (which covers the era)/dominance etc etc not on what they didn't do.

If Wlad fights two more bums and then retires, they won't go "oh, he fought x ranked men, but ended his career by fighting four bums", they just go "he fought x ranked men". Having said that, "failure to fight" does damage his scores in the dominance column, but as i've said several times, this is in an overall sense. Wlad finishing up his career against bums wouldn't hurt him at all. It didn't hurt Benny Leonard, Chris Eubank, Jack Johnson, John Sullivan, etc.

Much more pressing are concerns about the legitimacy of his title reign, his never having met his #1 contender, his never having beaten the champion.


----------



## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

McGrain said:


> Well i would say this _is_ about internet fan boys. But are you confusing talking about it/hating it/ with _penalising people in rankings_? Rank people on what they did/how complete their title runs were (which covers the era)/dominance etc etc not on what they didn't do.
> 
> If Wlad fights two more bums and then retires, they won't go "oh, he fought x ranked men, but ended his career by fighting four bums", they just go "he fought x ranked men". Having said that, "failure to fight" does damage his scores in the dominance column, but as i've said several times, this is in an overall sense. Wlad finishing up his career against bums wouldn't hurt him at all. It didn't hurt Benny Leonard, Chris Eubank, Jack Johnson, John Sullivan, etc.
> 
> Much more pressing are concerns about the legitimacy of his title reign, his never having met his #1 contender, his never having beaten the champion.


I think his biggest problem is that he has no lasting legacy beyond himself. None of the guys he has fought look like they are capable of becoming ATG's and he was unable to assert dominance on the last crop (not fully his fault, he just missed the last lot and then couldn't really fight his big brother).

The other problem is, that the pair fight as one entity and if one has beaten someone it feels often as if the other doesn't have to fight them as if they have already beaten them. Also beating the guys who beat the other and not following through yourself isn't great.

They need to fight the young lot and hope they prove themselves down the line imo. i wouldn't have either near in the top ten and doubt they can push on without other excelling, I wouldn't have Vitali in the top twenty five, maybes less.

They could have backed their records up better though.

Wlad could have had:

Chisora
Adamek
Solis
Arreola

Which wouldn't make a huge difference but it would be far better than the likes of Pianeta, Wach, Mormeck.

Vitali could have fought:

Haye
Chambers
Chagaev

which would have been far better than Sosnowski, Charr, shot Briggs, Johnson.

Also and I'm not one to rate him at all but neither fought Valuev, neither have yet to fight Povetkin and obviously haven't fought each other (last one I wont complain) so whilst the division has been weak, they have made it even weaker and made less of an argument for themselves by halving a division that had no need to been cut in two.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Chatty said:


> I think his biggest problem is that he has no lasting legacy beyond himself. None of the guys he has fought look like they are capable of becoming ATG's and he was unable to assert dominance on the last crop (not fully his fault, he just missed the last lot and then couldn't really fight his big brother).


Yeah, the big brother thing though, a lot of people want to give him a "pass" where that is concerned, but i'm not one of them. I don't expect him to fight his brother, but I i do say that, for whatever the reason, he hasn't been matched with the other great heavy of his era. The why almost doesn't matter -- the point is that there is one heavy on the planet capable of testing him and he hasn't fought him. This is also why, no title in my eyes.



> They need to fight the young lot and hope they prove themselves down the line imo.


It'd be a boost, for sure. But I actually feel uncomfortable about their wiping out prospects, there's something unpleasant about it.


----------



## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

McGrain said:


> It'd be a boost, for sure. But I actually feel uncomfortable about their wiping out prospects, there's something unpleasant about it.


I dont really see what else they can do. Theres a Povetkin and a Haye rematch, after that then they have to fight prospects - not that I rate many of them at present and I feel the taker of the throne aint a pro yet or is at least under the radar but the division is so weak they really wont have any options left soon.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Yeah, if the prospects are qualified, he has to fight them.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> he would be judged for what he did, rather than what he didn't


Practicality Bowe's whole career is judged by what he didn't do. He will never shake that criticism.
Calzaghe will always be criticised for not fighting Jones and Hopkins in they're prime.
SRL, if he never fought Hagler whould be judged negativity. There are loads of examples.
Not fighting the guys you are supposed too is a blotch of a fighters legacy.
Going vigilante for the benefit of the Klit fans caused you not to think straight.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> Practicality Bowe's whole career is judged by what he didn't do.


No. He's ranked by what he did do. He appears on HW top 20/25 lists because of what he did do. He's not HIGHER because of what he didn't do.



> He will never shake that criticism.


Yes. But these aren't one and the same thing.



> Calzaghe will always be criticised for not fighting Jones and Hopkins in they're prime.


Yes. But he is ranked where he is because of what he DID do. He is not ranked HIGHER because of what he didn't do.



> SRL, if he never fought Hagler whould be judged negativity.


No. He would not. He would be a former welterweight who retired after an eye injury. He would rank LOWER due to having been stripped of one of his best wins.



> There are loads of examples.
> Not fighting the guys you are supposed too is a blotch of a fighters legacy.
> Going vigilante for the benefit of the Klit fans caused you not to think straight.


I'm explaining this to you as carefully as i can, but i can't actually unfuck you.


----------



## Michael (Jun 8, 2012)

Chatty said:


> I dont really see what else they can do. Theres a Povetkin and a Haye rematch, after that then they have to fight prospects - not that I rate many of them at present and *I feel the taker of the throne aint a pro yet *or is at least under the radar but the division is so weak they really wont have any options left soon.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> How was he sparked out against Mccall? That was a debatable stoppage. Let me ask you something ******. Why do you bash Lewis every time someone mention Wlad or Vitali. Are you a racist? Are you a butt hurt fucking piece of shit waste of space bitch?
> 
> If you love the Ukraine so much, why not get down on your *** knees and slowly crawl your way from Scotland all the way to the homeland of your heroes.
> I'm sure you'll enjoy the 11th world living they got there.


Debatable stoppage? His legs were shakier than Elvis in 1956 you mutant dose of herpes gone wrong. The only butt hurting racist here is you Mr loser broken record ghetto ******. I haven't created one thread on Lewis yet you have spewed out your tiny tiny mind and its sub atomic content time and again with venom on these exemplary brothers. You will be surprised to hear I will be supporting Tony Thompson this weekend to sink another glass chinned hype job. Now run along and crawl back under your stone. And your crude attempts at insults are as cringe-worthy as your lame trolling.

Mods, do yourself a favour and ban this notorious half wit as esb did.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

> No. He's ranked by what he did do. He appears on HW top 20/25 lists because of what he did do. He's not HIGHER because of what he didn't do.


If he fought and beat Lewis he would be ranked higher. So in a sense he is where he is for what he didn't achieve.
Calzaghe would be ranked higher if he had moved up to LH and fought the names like he said he would instead of padding his record at 165.
Beating Hagler definitely propped SRL up the ATG rankings.



> I'm explaining this to you as carefully as i can


You're not explaining anything to me. You're giving me your opinion, which i think is poop.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

Masters said:


> If he fought and beat Lewis he would be ranked higher.


:lol: yes



> So in a sense he is where he is for what he didn't achieve.


:lol: ok



> You're not explaining anything to me. You're giving me your opinion, which i think is poop.


I'm NOT giving you opinion. I'm telling you that a) almost everyone apart from you ranks fighters based at least partly on skill set/head to head ability and b) that fighters get ranked according to what they do. These are statements of fact.

But your bizarre, tortured, unique point of view also works in a freakish sort of way.


----------



## LuckyLuke (Jun 6, 2013)

There are good fight for Wladimir.
Wladimir vs Povetkin is on. Povetkin is an olympic gold medalist and undefeated. He has himself also a decent record.
Wladmir could fight Fury and Price (if Price wins his next fights). Wladimir could fight Chisora (if Chisora wins his next fights). Or Scott/Jennings.




He can fight Pulev and Stiverne. He can fight Mike Perez (if he keeps wining).

There are still good names Wladimir can fight. And seriously: I dont see anyone of these guys beating Wladimir. Except maybe Stiverne/Price who have a KO chance


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

McGrain said:


> :lol: yes
> 
> :lol: ok
> 
> ...


Im not disputing the criteria of ranking. Those statements are fact. My argument was that while Klitschko is still active , whatever moves he makes , such as avoiding top tier names or another loss will have a negative effect on his legacy when its all said and done.


----------



## McGrain (Jul 6, 2012)

And i'm sure we can look forwards to your making that point on the forum every day between now and the end of your life.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

On the Money said:


> Debatable stoppage? His legs were shakier than Elvis in 1956 you mutant dose of herpes gone wrong. The only butt hurting racist here is you Mr loser broken record ghetto ******. I haven't created one thread on Lewis yet you have spewed out your tiny tiny mind and its sub atomic content time and again with venom on these exemplary brothers. You will be surprised to hear I will be supporting Tony Thompson this weekend to sink another glass chinned hype job. Now run along and crawl back under your stone. And your crude attempts at insults are as cringe-worthy as your lame trolling.
> 
> Mods, do yourself a favour and ban this notorious half wit as esb did.


How is this thread ban worthy ******? This is a great thread.

I called you out on your self hate because it's true.

Let's see. You are from the UK. You hate UK fighters (due to skin color or simply self loathing reasons) and you worship Eastern European fighters.

You are a British Tom. I mean it's a simple concept to understand.

The fact that you brought up 'supporting' Thompson (because he's African-American) as a reason that you are not 'bias' is further prove in itself that you are. It's like you are bragging to people 'LOOK AT ME I'M SUPPORTING TONY THOMPSON INSTEAD OF DAVID PRICE' SO THERE IS NO WAY I CAN BE BIAS!!!!!

Don't even deny it.

You hate Lewis,Benn,Eubank,Bruno. You love Vitali,Wladimir,Pulev.

I mean..... the lines are clearly drawn. Even a simpleton can see it.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

How can a guy seriously hate Bruno?

Did he fuck their sister or something?


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> How is this thread ban worthy ******? This is a great thread.
> 
> I called you out on your self hate because it's true.
> 
> ...


Sorry, twat-head, I don't buy being lectured by a sub moronic half-wit that can barely string a sentence together, I.E you. I will add you to the ignore list - same as I had on esb before they banned your dumb pimple ass.


----------



## On the Money (Jun 10, 2013)

dyna said:


> How can a guy seriously hate Bruno?
> 
> Did he fuck their sister or something?


Since when does questioning a guy's boxing ability translate to 'hate'? New one to me. Psycho's like Felix Trinidad are the hate merchants, he was banned from esb for it.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

On the Money said:


> Since when does questioning a guy's boxing ability translate to 'hate'? New one to me. Psycho's like Felix Trinidad are the hate merchants, he was banned from esb for it.


You have now mentioned 'ESB Banning' a total of 6 times. You have also bragged that you are a 'honored member' of ESB on and off.

I got news for you. Its a online forum. You are not to be 'knighted' due to good behavior and insightful posts.

You hate certain fighters and you refuse to admit it. You just can not get your head around the fact that the likes of Wladimir is not a Brit but Bruno/Benn were.

You are polluting my great thread with your utter bullshit and filth. Kindly get the fuck out of this thread which has went from intelligent conversation into utter garbage because of you.

I'm ashamed for your Mother.


----------



## 2377 (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> So who will you replace in place of Frazier,Liston,and Tyson. Keep in mind that there are literally thousands of lists of top ten HW'S from reputable sources that does include at least 2 of the 3. I respect your opinion but it's not like I put Riddick Bowe in there or Vitali Klitschko.
> 
> Wladimir's little 'physical attributes' does not count as part of his rankings. If we were to talk about Wladimir's physical attributes it just annoys me more and make me hate on him due to the fact he is physically dominant but a mental weakling.


Of course Frazier should get consideration for the Ali victory alone, but head to head I think Wlad beats him. Liston was protected and I just feel he's a tad over rated. Tyson dominated a weak era and beat a couple of badly faded ATGs - he was dominated by the only prime HOF caliber opponents he ever faced. Personally, I think he's right on the bubble of the top ten though just based on his brief dominance, excitement and accomplishment as the youngest HW champ. All 3 of these men are easily HOF fighters and top 20 ATG HW's, I just don't know about top ten. Prime for prime I feel that Wlad probably decisions all 3 of them and possibly stops Frazier. Just my opinion though.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Montero said:


> Of course Frazier should get consideration for the Ali victory alone, but head to head I think Wlad beats him. Liston was protected and I just feel he's a tad over rated. Tyson dominated a weak era and* beat a couple of badly faded ATGs - he was dominated by the only prime HOF caliber opponents he ever faced.* Personally, I think he's right on the bubble of the top ten though just based on his brief dominance, excitement and accomplishment as the youngest HW champ. All 3 of these men are easily HOF fighters and top 20 ATG HW's, I just don't know about top ten. Prime for prime I feel that Wlad probably decisions all 3 of them and possibly stops Frazier. Just my opinion though.


That's funny because Wladimir don't even have wins over shot ATG'S and was dominated by NON Hall of Fame caliber opponents.


----------



## 2377 (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> That's funny because Wladimir don't even have wins over shot ATG'S and was dominated by NON Hall of Fame caliber opponents.


Wlad can't help the era he fights in, so you can't hold it against him that he never got a chance to beat shot versions of Holyfield, Tyson and/or a faded version of Lewis - those guys had either retired or were nowhere near serviceable by the time Wlad became the undisputed champion several years back... He had some loses early in his career to sub-standard fighters, as did many all time greats before him. However, he has done more than enough to prove himself and then some since those loses. He has reigned longer than Tyson did and an argument could be made (although a controversial one) that Wlad's overall list of opponents trumps Tyson's when you consider the intangibles.


----------



## antonio8904 (Jun 7, 2013)

Unfortunately they are victims of their era which is shit, but still I would not rate them top ten all time


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> That's funny because Wladimir don't even have wins over shot ATG'S and was dominated by NON Hall of Fame caliber opponents.


How do you expect Wlad to have a win over an ATG when he has completely dominated during his era? How is anyone else supposed to reach ATG status when nobody can beat him? He is just that damn great. Frazier is considered an ATG because he beat Ali.... Foreman is considered an ATG because he beat Frazier. However, Wlad has simply dominated his era for so long that nobody else has had a chance to really make a name for themselves, no matter how great they were against other opponents. Lewis retired without fighting Wlad or Vitali in a rematch, so there goes the "beating the old Champ" angle. Beating an Old Holyfield would mean nothing. In reality... Lewis' wins over an over the hill Holyfield and a shell of Mike Tyson shouldn't mean much of anything either. Holmes win over Ali is worthless... people put WAY to much emphasis on beating some old washed up champ or former champ just to have a "name" on your resume. Wlad has dominted all of the best Challengers in the entire world for 8 straight years. Undefeated Challengers, undefeated Champs, unified titles, and beat guys that nobody else can seem to beat. All of this, and he has hardly lost a round during this title reign, let alone a fight.


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

Do any of you guys actually believe that a small, slow, plodding, one arm bandit like Joe Frazier would have a chance in hell of beating the current version of Wladimir Klitschko? You are CRAZY if you do. 

Frazier lives off of his win against Ali. He was absolutely slaughtered by Foreman twice and his biggest wins outside of Ali (who he went 1-2 against) are guys like Quarry and Bonavena. People really need to stop looking at fighters from the past with those fogged up glasses... they really weren't better than fighters from today.


----------



## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Do any of you guys actually believe that a small, slow, plodding, one arm bandit like Joe Frazier would have a chance in hell of beating the current version of Wladimir Klitschko? You are CRAZY if you do.
> 
> Frazier lives off of his win against Ali. He was absolutely slaughtered by Foreman twice and his biggest wins outside of Ali (who he went 1-2 against) are guys like Quarry and Bonavena. People really need to stop looking at fighters from the past with those fogged up glasses... they really weren't better than fighters from today.


I considered writing an educated and well thought out reply to this post, but then I remembered you're a Klitard cunt from a best-forgotten obselete website. Nothing more to add to that really.


----------



## Leo (May 21, 2013)

I have both Klits hovering around the top 15, which is a pretty awesome achievement. I don't think we will get proper perspective until a few years after they both retire though.

H2H I think they are a hard night for anyone. If people have them in their top ten lists I won't think that is silly, although top 5 would seem to be obviously wrong to me.


----------



## Laughing Bruno (Jun 13, 2012)

dyna said:


> How can a guy seriously hate Bruno?
> 
> Did he fuck their sister or something?


heh heh heh


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> How do you expect Wlad to have a win over an ATG when he has completely dominated during his era? How is anyone else supposed to reach ATG status when nobody can beat him? He is just that damn great. Frazier is considered an ATG because he beat Ali.... Foreman is considered an ATG because he beat Frazier. However, Wlad has simply dominated his era for so long that nobody else has had a chance to really make a name for themselves, no matter how great they were against other opponents. Lewis retired without fighting Wlad or Vitali in a rematch, so there goes the "beating the old Champ" angle. Beating an Old Holyfield would mean nothing. In reality... Lewis' wins over an over the hill Holyfield and a shell of Mike Tyson shouldn't mean much of anything either. Holmes win over Ali is worthless... people put WAY to much emphasis on beating some old washed up champ or former champ just to have a "name" on your resume. Wlad has dominted all of the best Challengers in the entire world for 8 straight years. Undefeated Challengers, undefeated Champs, unified titles, and beat guys that nobody else can seem to beat. All of this, and he has hardly lost a round during this title reign, let alone a fight.


Didn't read.
Now go fuck yourself you 4th world ape.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> Do any of you guys actually believe that a small, slow, plodding, one arm bandit like Joe Frazier would have a chance in hell of beating the current version of Wladimir Klitschko? You are CRAZY if you do.
> 
> Frazier lives off of his win against Ali. He was absolutely slaughtered by Foreman twice and his biggest wins outside of Ali (who he went 1-2 against) are guys like Quarry and Bonavena. People really need to stop looking at fighters from the past with those fogged up glasses... they really weren't better than fighters from today.


Frazier would have left Wlad dead on the ground. Dead with a left hook.
Vitali will be crying (again)
Wlad will be convulsing.


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

This past 8 years has been horrible for you Klitschko haters. Poor souls. Quoting poster after poster and doing nothing more than spewing personal hatred toward them. All of that hate... all of those years spent trying to discredit every win, every opponent... and still nobody.... nobody cares about what you think.:lol:


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> This past 8 years has been horrible for you Klitschko haters. Poor souls. Quoting poster after poster and doing nothing more than spewing personal hatred toward them. All of that hate... all of those years spent trying to discredit every win, every opponent... and* still nobody.... nobody cares about what you think.:lol*:


HBO cares. Hence they fired Wlad. MSG cares. Hence they fired Wlad. ShowTime cares.. hence they fired Wlad.
Vegas cares. Hence Wlad never get to fight there.
America boxing media cares. Hence nobody knows who Wlad is.

But you keep on deluding yourself into thinking fighting in shit holes like Kiev and Moteehrburg is the same as fighting at MSG and Vegas.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

If chinny Lennox can make top five than chinny Wlad can make the bottom half of the top ten.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> How do you expect Wlad to have a win over an ATG when he has completely dominated during his era? How is anyone else supposed to reach ATG status when nobody can beat him? He is just that damn great. Frazier is considered an ATG because he beat Ali.... Foreman is considered an ATG because he beat Frazier. However, Wlad has simply dominated his era for so long that nobody else has had a chance to really make a name for themselves, no matter how great they were against other opponents. Lewis retired without fighting Wlad or Vitali in a rematch, so there goes the "beating the old Champ" angle. Beating an Old Holyfield would mean nothing. In reality... Lewis' wins over an over the hill Holyfield and a shell of Mike Tyson shouldn't mean much of anything either. Holmes win over Ali is worthless... people put WAY to much emphasis on beating some old washed up champ or former champ just to have a "name" on your resume. Wlad has dominted all of the best Challengers in the entire world for 8 straight years. Undefeated Challengers, undefeated Champs, unified titles, and beat guys that nobody else can seem to beat. All of this, and he has hardly lost a round during this title reign, let alone a fight.


You stupid retarded dickless bastard. You misinformed fucking pig slut.

The Holyfield Lewis beat was in the P4P Lists and considered the 2nd best Heavyweight at the time. He was ALSO a slight favorite.

The Holyfield Lewis beat would have beaten Wladimir's ENTIRE resume.

Wladimir and Vitali fans are the biggest bigots in the world. Listen to you defending Wladimir like he's your boyfriend.

History will not be kind to Wladimir.


----------



## WiDDoW_MaKeR (Jun 20, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> You stupid retarded dickless bastard. You misinformed fucking pig slut.
> 
> The Holyfield Lewis beat was in the P4P Lists and considered the 2nd best Heavyweight at the time. He was ALSO a slight favorite.
> 
> ...


The Holyfield that Lewis beat went on to be beat by John Ruiz shortly after. :lol: Nice try though....

Do you enjoy replying to my posts saying that you didn't bother reading them.... only to reply again with a rebuttal to what you clearly read? This isn't the first time that you have done this. Are you just trying to push up your post count, or are you really this terrible of a poster?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> The Holyfield that Lewis beat went on to be beat by John Ruiz shortly after. :lol: Nice try though....
> 
> Do you enjoy replying to my posts saying that you didn't bother reading them.... only to reply again with a rebuttal to what you clearly read? This isn't the first time that you have done this. Are you just trying to push up your post count, or are you really this terrible of a poster?


Lewis ruined Holyfield. I enjoy knowing you will always reply to my posts. You are a racist butt hurt who hates Lewis because he's black. You are a piece of shit human being and the world will be better if you got ran over by a pack of Spanish Bulls and gored to death.

Wladimir was down 14 times.. You are another British Uncle Tom who hates the fact that England's best was Black and you wish to God the Klitschkos were British because they fit your 'desires' more. You know it and I know it. Why deny it?

You and On the Money should get married, finally lose your virginity to each other and move to that 10th world shit hole the Klitschkos crawled out of.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

History will not be kind to the Klitschkos OR their retarded Neo Nazi fans.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Slava said:


> The Klitschkos are the greatest heavyweights of all time. They would dominate any era.


:rolleyes


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

The History books will look on the Klitschkos reign as one of the worst reign in HW History. The reign that killed HW Boxing and made what was once a flagship division into a punch line joke. They will also look back on the Klitschkos reign as a reign filled with the most retarded butt hurt racist *** fan boys ever.

The truth of the matter is.. if you like Vitali. you like a steroid using, cheating, crying, corrupted 10x failed politician who losted every time he stepped up in competition.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

I am becoming more and more convinced that it's Wladimir's lack of belief in his own durability which result in his extremely cautious approach.

I felt like I was being too hard on Wlad so I went back and watched some of his fights after he got with Steward.

During the early parts of the Wlad/Steward run he still showed flashes of aggressiveness early on in fights but realized that he can get hit back.
During Wlad-Thompson I, Wladimir unleashed a barrage during the early rounds and got caught by Thompson's counter. He immediately looked like he was going into panic mode and started hugging. It's the same with the Haye fight even.. I remember Wlad actually did attempt to go after Haye early on but narrowly avoided a big Hayemaker and Wlad just reverted back to the jab and hold.

I believe that Wladimir's chin might not be as bad as some people say it is, but his mental barrier is pure glass when it comes to getting hurt. If you hurt him, he will revert back to what his inner self naturally is. It's like his body just malfunctions whenever he gets hurt.

Against Williamson after the KD, Wlad looked like he was going to quit until Steward ripped the cut open for the ref interference.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> How do you expect Wlad to have a win over an ATG when he has completely dominated during his era? How is anyone else supposed to reach ATG status when nobody can beat him? He is just that damn great. .


This is by far the stupidest shit i ever read.
Are you saying without any Wladimir Klitschko a case could be made for the likes of Mormek, Sam Peter or Chris Byrd being all time greats. Tell me one guy on Wlads record who could be a great if he never fought and lost to him.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

Carl Williams would be an ATG if he was around today.

The truth of the Holmes fight beats Wlad.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

WiDDoW_MaKeR said:


> The Holyfield that Lewis beat went on to be beat by John Ruiz shortly after. :lol: Nice try though....
> 
> Do you enjoy replying to my posts saying that you didn't bother reading them.... only to reply again with a rebuttal to what you clearly read? This isn't the first time that you have done this. Are you just trying to push up your post count, or are you really this terrible of a poster?


Shut the fuck up... You just love Klitschkos don't you? You fucking nut hugger fuck.


----------



## Tko6 (May 19, 2013)

All Klitards have to counter with is 'if'. Fact is that neither brother has beat anyone of note, one was humiliated by a journeyman (amongst other things) and the other had a vagina torn in his face by the worst version of Lewis and quit against a super-middleweight. I could be wrong, but I'm sure neither brother has ever beaten the No 1 or even the No 2 in the division, which should disqualify them from any ATG talk. I guess this is the bit where Klitards start bringing up KO ratios and rounds won, spastics that they are.


----------



## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

They've both also turned into blatant cheaters at the ends of their careers.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Tko6 said:


> All Klitards have to counter with is 'if'. Fact is that neither brother has beat anyone of note, one was humiliated by a journeyman (amongst other things) and the other had a vagina torn in his face by the worst version of Lewis and quit against a super-middleweight. I could be wrong, but I'm sure neither brother has ever beaten the No 1 or even the No 2 in the division, which should disqualify them from any ATG talk. I guess this is the bit where Klitards start bringing up KO ratios and rounds won, spastics that they are.


Byrd was ranked nr1 at some point when Wlad beat him, Povetkin was nr2. (Vitali and Haye both too inactive to still be ranked)
Sam Peter was ranked nr2 when Vitali beat him.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

dyna said:


> Byrd was ranked nr1 at some point when Wlad beat him, Povetkin was nr2. (Vitali and Haye both too inactive to still be ranked)
> Sam Peter was ranked nr2 when Vitali beat him.


But that era prior to Vitali coming back was even WORST than the era now.... Those #2 's from 05-08 would have been top 15 only in the 90's.. those guys were incredibly bad. Bryd was also shot though when he fought Wlad a 2nd time.. when Wlad beat Byrd the 1st time..Lewis was #1 .. So Wladimir never really beat a true #2 guy.


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

Montero said:


> Wlad can't help the era he fights in, so you can't hold it against him that he never got a chance to beat shot versions of Holyfield, Tyson and/or a faded version of Lewis - those guys had either retired or were nowhere near serviceable by the time Wlad became the undisputed champion several years back... He had some loses early in his career to sub-standard fighters, as did many all time greats before him. However, he has done more than enough to prove himself and then some since those loses. He has reigned longer than Tyson did and an argument could be made (although a controversial one) *that Wlad's overall list of opponents trumps Tyson's when you consider the intangibles*.


Tyson's victory over Larry Holmes and a prime Michael Spinks still trumps Wlad's best wins over Super Middleweight Byrd, One eyed Lamon Brewster in 2007 and a lackluster Ibragimov in 08.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

Wlad is a good fighter and a fine champion but he is not top ten. 
Also you cant measure how much Wlad benefited by having his brother be an active fighter at the same time as him. No other champion had their brother to help them. It's a major factor.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

and to be fair,Wlad has never been the undisputed HW champion because of a little thing called the WBC title. Also,he is nowhere close to Joe Louis record. Joe was the champ for 11 years,not just a belt holder. Wlad has only been the lineal champ for a few years now. Winning an IBF belt and a WBO belt dont make you "the champ." A champ but not the champ.


----------



## The Great Muta (Jun 4, 2013)

Nick said:


> and to be fair,Wlad has never been the undisputed HW champion because of a little thing called the WBC title. Also,he is nowhere close to Joe Louis record. Joe was the champ for 11 years,not just a belt holder. Wlad has only been the lineal champ for a few years now. Winning an IBF belt and a WBO belt dont make you "the champ." A champ but not the champ.


We can discount Larry Holmes reign then seeing as he never held more than 1 title at any time. Wladimirs been the best heavyweight in the world since 2006 whatever abc belt belonged to who, isn't that the whole point of having championships in sport, to decide the best? But Oleg Maskaev was WBC champ at the same time so it doesn't count.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

I'd have to be very kind to Wlad to put him in the top 10 of all-time, not enough variety. I do stick by him though (says a lot about how much I hate David Haye more than anything). HoF for sure


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

The Great Muta said:


> We can discount Larry Holmes reign then seeing as he never held more than 1 title at any time. *Wladimirs been the best heavyweight in the world since 2006 *whatever abc belt belonged to who, isn't that the whole point of having championships in sport, to decide the best? But Oleg Maskaev was WBC champ at the same time so it doesn't count.


That's a lie.. I will favor Vitali and heavily favor Vitali from 2008-2011.. and in 2013 it's a 50/50 fight.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

The Great Muta said:


> We can discount Larry Holmes reign then seeing as he never held more than 1 title at any time. Wladimirs been the best heavyweight in the world since 2006 whatever abc belt belonged to who, isn't that the whole point of having championships in sport, to decide the best? But Oleg Maskaev was WBC champ at the same time so it doesn't count.


You missed the point. Larry Holmes had the IBF belt but he also held the Ring/Lineal title that he won in the ring fair and square. Wlad is now Lineal champion but that title was won only a few years ago. Holmes beat a certain Ali for the title. Klitschko beat Wlad beat Chagaev in 2009 to become Ring/Lineal champ. Wlad has been the champ since 2009 the earliest. That's 3 years.


----------



## 2377 (Jun 6, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> Tyson's victory over Larry Holmes and a prime Michael Spinks still trumps Wlad's best wins over Super Middleweight Byrd, One eyed Lamon Brewster in 2007 and a lackluster Ibragimov in 08.


Well for one I wouldn't list Brewster and Ibragimov as top 5 wins for Wladimir. In regards to Tyson's win over Holmes, Larry was coming off a 2 year layoff (was out drinking and using drugs most of that time) and had lost his previous 2 bouts. The Spinks win was impressive, but Michael was coming off a 1 year layoff himself and never fought again. Did he merely show up for the payday? Who knows. Either way, it's arguably Tyson's best win.

Comparing Byrd to Spinks is interesting. One could argue that Byrd's win over Holyfield was similar to Spinks' win over Holmes (both beat faded versions of ATG's), and that Byrd ultimately more accomplished at HW. But obviously Spinks was far more accomplished south of 200 pounds, being the legitimate LHW champion.



Nick said:


> Also you cant measure how much Wlad benefited by having his brother be an active fighter at the same time as him. No other champion had their brother to help them. It's a major factor.


Here's where that argument fails, just compare resumes of the two Klitschko brothers. Wlad has fought the MUCH better opposition, and you forget that for 4 years Vitali sat idle while Wlad cleaned out the division. Had Vitali stayed retired, is there any doubt that Wladimir would've added the WBC to his collection of belts? Who has Vitali fought/beat since his return in 2008 that Wladimir wouldn't? Arreola? Johnson? Adamek?



Nick said:


> and to be fair,Wlad has never been the undisputed HW champion because of a little thing called the WBC title. Also,he is nowhere close to Joe Louis record. Joe was the champ for 11 years,not just a belt holder. Wlad has only been the lineal champ for a few years now. Winning an IBF belt and a WBO belt dont make you "the champ." A champ but not the champ.


Two different situations, two different eras. Joe Louis fought in a time without multiple belts, there was just one title. Nowadays they give out title belts like candy. Still, I wouldn't call Wlad a mere belt holder. He's held the IBF, WBA, WBO, IBO and RING titles for years now, defending them multiple times. When he dominated Chagaev in 2009 he established a new lineage. Several times he's routed the division's top contender (not named Vitali) - Byrd, Haye, Povetkin. He's done more than enough to be seen as "THE champ" of the post Lennox Lewis era.

All of the above being said, I'm disgusted with Wladimir's last performance. The win over Povetkin was mind-numbing, ugly and frustrating to watch. Lately Wlad's fights are like watching the Indianapolis 500 with the fastest driver/car going 80 MPH until the final lap, when he finally guns it for the finish line. You know the driver has the best car in the race, the best engine, all the tools to dominate, yet he drives safety first until all the other cars have run out of gas. Wladimir Klitschko is a great heavyweight champion that fails to inspire.


----------



## FloydPatterson (Jun 4, 2013)

YES


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

Montero said:


> Well for one I wouldn't list Brewster and Ibragimov as top 5 wins for Wladimir. In regards to Tyson's win over Holmes, Larry was coming off a 2 year layoff (was out drinking and using drugs most of that time) and had lost his previous 2 bouts. The Spinks win was impressive, but Michael was coming off a 1 year layoff himself and never fought again. Did he merely show up for the payday? Who knows. Either way, it's arguably Tyson's best win.
> 
> Comparing Byrd to Spinks is interesting. One could argue that Byrd's win over Holyfield was similar to Spinks' win over Holmes (both beat faded versions of ATG's), and that Byrd ultimately more accomplished at HW. But obviously Spinks was far more accomplished south of 200 pounds, being the legitimate LHW champion.
> Let me be clear,Wlad is the champ now. Lineal and otherwise. Wlad is the champ. But when people say he is nearing Joe Louis record of 11 years I say whoa,not true. He wasn't the true lineal champ for 11 years like Joe was. He was a beltholder for most of that time,only the champ for 3-4 years now.
> ...


 Wlad is the champ now but he hasn't been lineal/Ring champ for anywhere close to Joe Louis reign. Wlad didn't become THE TRU Champ until 2009. Louis was THE MAN for 11 years. Wlad is the best HW now but he was merely a beltholder before 2009. Those years when he held the WBO belt cant count towards that list of longest reigning champs. Also, just 2 years ago some thought Vitali might still beat Wlad. Wlad has fought better guys I agree BUT I believe Wlad would have one more loss if Vitali wasn't around. Chisora is a bad match up for him isn't he? Not saying Dereck would beat Wlad but it's possible. Also Sam Peter wouldn't have been deteriorated so badly for the second Wlad fight if not for Vitali's beatdown. Things to think about.


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

Nick said:


> Wlad is a good fighter and a fine champion but he is not top ten.


Succinct and accurate. He's a good champ and a good role model, as well as a credit to the sport in that he's articulate and doesn't get up to funny business outside the ring.

Unfortunately for him despite his long reign, he for me just does not have the goods for true greatness. A long list of mediocre opponents, no signature wins, no natural rival, no moments in any fight that will have people talking about it for years, no superfight of any kind...and an inability to dominate in devastating fashion. He dominates, but in a safety-first, boring way. If the Heavyweight Champion of the World cannot get a slot on HBO, then something is very wrong.

Wlad is like a budget family sedan. It'll do the job competently, but the trip is not particularly memorable or pleasant.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

fists of fury said:


> Succinct and accurate. He's a good champ and a good role model, as well as a credit to the sport in that he's articulate and doesn't get up to funny business outside the ring.
> 
> Unfortunately for him despite his long reign, he for me just does not have the goods for true greatness. A long list of mediocre opponents, no signature wins, no natural rival, no moments in any fight that will have people talking about it for years, no superfight of any kind...and an inability to dominate in devastating fashion. He dominates, but in a safety-first, boring way. If the Heavyweight Champion of the World cannot get a slot on HBO, then something is very wrong.
> 
> Wlad is like a budget family sedan. It'll do the job competently, but the trip is not particularly memorable or pleasant.


What's confusing to me about Wlad.. is that he KNEW he was given chances on HBO and all three times he blew it. I'm serious.. I don't know if he just had fucking shit management... not telling him this but HBO gave him a lot more chances than they did with other fighters.

Wlad-Sultan
Wlad-Haye
Wlad-Povetkin

they gave him 3 major fights to work with and he could have went all out in all 3.. Haye is excusable because that guy is a lethal counter puncher with massive power.. but Sultan was doing shit all and just pawing .. Povetkin did even less.. Wlad should have stepped it up.

Wladimir Klitschko only have himself to blame..also how do we KNOW he could have beaten Vitali?

If Vitali was not related to Wlad.. Wlad's reign might have ended in 2009.............


----------



## The Undefeated Gaul (Jun 4, 2013)

o59 said:


> as for the thread's question; no, i would not consider wladimir klitschko a top ten all-time heavyweight. Ravaged by so-so fighters and an unimpressive win column. He gets by via incredible dominance and consistency over decent-to-good contenders. Byrd, haye, chagaev and povetkin will be his best opponents provided he secures the victory over alexander, by far.
> 
> He's getting closer, though.


come back orriray!


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> What's confusing to me about Wlad.. is that he KNEW he was given chances on HBO and all three times he blew it. I'm serious.. I don't know if he just had fucking shit management... not telling him this but HBO gave him a lot more chances than they did with other fighters.
> 
> Wlad-Sultan
> Wlad-Haye
> ...


Yep, agree. HBO were pushing Wlad earlier in his career, trying to give him exposure. People forget that. Wlad fans try and make it out like there is some racial or nationalistic bias on America's part, but I don't see it being that. At least, nowhere near to the extent they claim. You can't put a boring fighter on HBO and expect folk to buy it. Simples.


----------



## Yiddle (Jul 10, 2012)

Still no


----------



## DrMo (Jun 6, 2012)

fists of fury said:


> Succinct and accurate. He's a good champ and a good role model, as well as a credit to the sport in that he's articulate and doesn't get up to funny business outside the ring.


That's how K2 like to portray Wlad, but the truth is very different, the sooner he retires the better


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

fists of fury said:


> Succinct and accurate. He's a good champ and a good role model, as well as a credit to the sport in that he's articulate and doesn't get up to funny business outside the ring.
> 
> Unfortunately for him despite his long reign, he for me just does not have the goods for true greatness. A long list of mediocre opponents, no signature wins, no natural rival, no moments in any fight that will have people talking about it for years, no superfight of any kind...and an inability to dominate in devastating fashion. He dominates, but in a safety-first, boring way. If the Heavyweight Champion of the World cannot get a slot on HBO, then something is very wrong.
> 
> Wlad is like a budget family sedan. It'll do the job competently, but the trip is not particularly memorable or pleasant.


And there is nothing wrong with that legacy. Not every fighter must be top 10 ATG. Being remembered as a heavyweight champion of the world is a great legacy.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Really dont know about comparing Byrd to Spinks. Spinks didnt stick around long enough at heavyweight to determine how good he really was at the weight. On the other hand Spinks beat a very good version of Holmes twice which is certainly better than beating past prime Holyfield like someone said.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

Slava said:


> The Klitschkos are the greatest heavyweights of all time. They would dominate any era.





Slava said:


> The Klitschkos are criminally underrated by jealous bitter butthurt americans, brits, racists, etc


:rolleyes


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

Nick said:


> And there is nothing wrong with that legacy. Not every fighter must be top 10 ATG. Being remembered as a heavyweight champion of the world is a great legacy.


That's exactly how I see it too. I don't see the need to try and squash him into any 10 ten list simply because he's the best of this era.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

fists of fury said:


> That's exactly how I see it too. I don't see the need to try and squash him into any 10 ten list simply because he's the best of this era.


Exactly. People just have to be honest with themselves.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

Slava said:


> All of the ridiculously overrated American champs of the past should have asterisks next to their names because they were really only local champs, not world champs. They never competed against Eastern Europeans, Cubans, Africans, etc in the pros. The Klitschkos have dominated and cleaned out a global heavyweight division. All of the best heavyweights from America, Britain, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Africa, etc have been defeated by the Klitschkos. The Klitschkos are real world champs, unlike those disgustingly overrated overhyped American local champ frauds of the past.


 Ali,Foreman,Joe Louis,Tyson all fought fighters from other countries but it just so happened that most of the heavyweights worth while were American. That is why it was considered an American division for a long time.


----------



## Squire (May 17, 2013)

I'd certainly have Wlad top 15. Whatever happens now he has that secure. It's impressive that he will go into 2014 as heavyweight champ after winning Olympic gold in 1996, the European title in 99, beat Chris Byrd for the first time in 2000 for the WBO and has went unbeaten since 2004 with a long reign as champion since. You can criticise him for plenty but his place in history is pretty safe


----------



## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

Listen, I'm Ukrainian, but I don't think he deserves to be top ten. But I'm also half American, racially, and that needs to be respected. He hasn't fought in America enough and he needs to, in order to validate his place in the top twenty first.


----------



## Danimal (Oct 9, 2013)

He's a dominant and long reigning HW champ. Nothing but respect for his accomplishments. It's a shame his brother fought half the contenders cos I don't see any of Vitalis recent wins at least troubling Wlad. He's the best of an era and few fighters can say that.

However, I have him nowhere near my top 10, and I'm by no means a boxing historian.


----------



## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

i may be in the minority but i see more of an argument for him in the top 10 than against it at this point


----------



## charlie harper (May 18, 2013)

1. Ali
2. Louis

3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Foreman

6. W. Klitschko
7. Frazier
8. Marciano
9. Tyson
10. Liston


I rank him above Frazier due to a much longer career at the top. Frazier had less than 35 fights and retired young, Wlad's career has been better. Judging him above because of his win over 1971 Ali is wrong imo. If that's your criteria then you should probably rank him also above Louis, because beating Ali is better than beating Schmeling or Walcott. But nobody does that. I also think Klitschko would school and probably KO late Frazier and Marciano. Too small for him. 

Tyson's 3 year (late 1986 until late 1989) performance at the top isn't enough argument to rank him above Wlad. Wins over Bonecrusher Smith, Berbick, old inactive Holmes are not a good argument. If anything, Wlad's and Tyson's competition has been below average, but Wlad had a much longer and better reign.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

charlie harper said:


> 1. Ali
> 2. Louis
> 
> 3. Holmes
> ...


I respect that.


----------



## Gunner (Jun 4, 2013)

Boxed Ears said:


> Listen, I'm Ukrainian, but I don't think he deserves to be top ten. But I'm also half American, racially, and that needs to be respected. He hasn't fought in America enough and he needs to, in order to validate his place in the top twenty first.


:rofl


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

My top 10 is:

1-Muhammad Ali
2-Joe Loius
3-Lennox Lewis
4-George Foreman
5-Larry Holmes
6-Joe Frazier
7-Evander Holyfield
8-Mike Tyson
9-Wladimir Klitschko
10-Rocky Marciano.


Wladimir could potentially end up surpassing Tyson....... but it will take a surreal late surge to surpass Holyfield.


----------



## charlie harper (May 18, 2013)

Wlad actually has many similarities to Holmes: long reign, weak competition. And Holmes is ranked by most as a Top5.

Wlad lacks a Norton in his resume, and has embarassing loses (last was 9 years ago), that's why I rank him below Holmes. But due to the similarities, imo, Wlad shouldn't be SO below Holmes. That's why Top10 is ok for me.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

charlie harper said:


> Wlad actually has many similarities to Holmes: long reign, weak competition. And Holmes is ranked by most as a Top5.
> 
> Wlad lacks a Norton in his resume, and has embarassing loses (last was 9 years ago), that's why I rank him below Holmes. But due to the similarities, imo, Wlad shouldn't be SO below Holmes. That's why Top10 is ok for me.


Oh for sure.. and it depends on what he can still achieve.. EVERY win for Wlad now is a bonus.. If he can get 5 more big wins.. I got him in top 5.

Easily.

Hopefully Joshua will be the real deal 3 years from now so he can fight a 40-41 year old Wlad.

Wladimir was knocked out 3 times prior to becoming shot though ... and only avenged one defeat.
That kind of thing goes against Wlad,Lennox,Tyson etc.. big time.

Lennox avenged both defeats but he will never be greater than 3 and 3 is being generous because he was tkoed once and koed once.
NOW was the Mccall stoppage debatable? Sure it was.. but it still happened.

That being said.. I think if Wlad had knocked out Sanders RIGHT after he lost to Sanders.. it would have done wonders for his overall resume.. I really do.. because that proves the 1st loss was a honest fluke.... and not just a styles mismatch.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

jorodz said:


> i may be in the minority but i see more of an argument for him in the top 10 than against it at this point


Where do you have him?


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> What's confusing to me about Wlad.. is that he KNEW he was given chances on HBO and all three times he blew it. I'm serious.. I don't know if he just had fucking shit management... not telling him this but HBO gave him a lot more chances than they did with other fighters.
> 
> Wlad-Sultan
> Wlad-Haye
> ...


But he makes so much money in Germany that maybe he and his management feel he doesn't need HBO


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> But he makes so much money in Germany that maybe he and his management feel he doesn't need HBO


Oh he does make more money.. but it's not about the money in this regard because the difference is not enough.

What I mean is this....... You could make a shit load of money in other Economically powerful Countries like Germany,Japan,China, even the UK.. BUT when it comes to Boxing as of right now USA is still the BOXING CAPITAL of the World.. ESPECIALLY FOR HEAVYWEIGHTS. It's a tradition, it's history, it's glamour when it comes to HW.

You think Lennox Lewis can't sell out 50,000 in England after 1999? Lewis would have sold 30,000-50,000 Stadiums every time after 1999,, but he still choose to fight in the US because that's where the history of HW Boxing is.

Now obviously there are exceptions.. The SMW Division clearly lays in Europe.. most of it's biggest fights and biggest money makers were in Europe and it's been like that since the late 80's-2013.. but overall and especially HW'S you still gotta try to get on HBO/Show Time.

And Wlad has been given NUMEROUS chances and failed sadly at every one.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

HBO refused to broadcast his fight with Chageav for the lineal HW title. If he is being shunned like that in his most important fights , there is no way he can be an ATG.


----------



## jorodz (Sep 14, 2012)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Where do you have him?


fair question. in terms of my tiers they go like this

ali

louis

holmes
lewis

marciano
foreman
frazier

holyfield
tyson
wlad

liston gets pushed to 11


----------



## 2377 (Jun 6, 2013)

Nick said:


> just 2 years ago some thought Vitali might still beat Wlad.


Because of Vitali's performance against Lennox Lewis (a loss mind you), some will always think Vitali>Wladimir. But many, if not most, boxing experts have said over the years that Wlad is the better Klitschko (including the late, great, Emmanuel Steward). Guys like Freddie Roach and Lou DiBella have always maintained that Wlad beats Vitali.



Nick said:


> Wlad has fought better guys I agree BUT I believe Wlad would have one more loss if Vitali wasn't around. Chisora is a bad match up for him isn't he? Not saying Dereck would beat Wlad but it's possible. Also Sam Peter wouldn't have been deteriorated so badly for the second Wlad fight if not for Vitali's beatdown. Things to think about.


I completely disagree on this one. There is nothing about Chisora that would bother Wlad any more than guys like Povetkin, Chagaev did. In fact, I think Wlad stops Chisora late (after some interesting early rounds with the Englishman pressing the fight).

In regards to Peter, Vitali beat a fat, unmotivated, 254 pound version of him. Just a few months after that pathetic performance, an even more obese and more unmotivated version of Sam Peter lost to Eddie Chambers. Subsequently, Wlad beat a motivated, reinvigorated 241 pound version of the Nigerian Nightmare in their rematch. Let us not forget that Wlad beat the undefeated, hungriest, most feared version of Peter several years before (and has grown by leaps and bounds since then).

Vitali's opponents since his comeback: Peter (fat version), Gomez, Arreola (fat version), Johnson, Sosnowski, Briggs, Solis, Adamek, Chisora, Charr - Wladimir dominates ALL of them, albiet in boring safety first fashion, stopping all but 1 or 2.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Montero said:


> Because of Vitali's performance against Lennox Lewis (a loss mind you), some will always think Vitali>Wladimir. But many, if not most, boxing experts have said over the years that Wlad is the better Klitschko (including the late, great, Emmanuel Steward). Guys like Freddie Roach and Lou DiBella have always maintained that Wlad beats Vitali.
> 
> I completely disagree on this one. There is nothing about Chisora that would bother Wlad any more than guys like Povetkin, Chagaev did. In fact, I think Wlad stops Chisora late (after some interesting early rounds with the Englishman pressing the fight).
> 
> ...


These are interesting points.. but the fact remain. you must ask yourself is Wach,Mormeck, and Paineta MORE dangerous than Perez,Jennings,Pulev,Fury,Chisora?

Let's stop with the Mando bullshit... Wlad don't to fight Mandos.. it's utterly retarded and pointless.. he should fight the most dangerous/biggest fights.

Although I do give him the benefit of the doubt regarding Mandos I REFUSE to believe his accusations that nobody wants to fight Wlad.

Wlad is not destroying you, he is not utterly knocking your fucking head off like Tyson... he will just jab and grab you to a UD or into an eventually late tko/ko. Why the Hell is anyone scared of that? They are not scared..


----------



## fists of fury (May 24, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Oh he does make more money.. but it's not about the money in this regard because the difference is not enough.
> 
> What I mean is this....... You could make a shit load of money in other Economically powerful Countries like Germany,Japan,China, even the UK.. BUT when it comes to Boxing as of right now USA is still the BOXING CAPITAL of the World.. ESPECIALLY FOR HEAVYWEIGHTS. It's a tradition, it's history, it's glamour when it comes to HW.
> 
> You think Lennox Lewis can't sell out 50,000 in England after 1999? Lewis would have sold 30,000-50,000 Stadiums every time after 1999,, but he still choose to fight in the US because that's where the history of HW Boxing is.


I see it exactly the same way. It's a bit like the music industry really. Getting number one hits in places like Germany, Italy and France is nice and all, but you're never quite the superstar until you've had hits in the USA. It still boggles my mind that Wlad cannot get a regular slot on HBO, and you can't blame HBO for that.


----------



## 2377 (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> These are interesting points.. but the fact remain. you must ask yourself is Wach,Mormeck, and Paineta MORE dangerous than Perez,Jennings,Pulev,Fury,Chisora?


Solid point. Wach was an OK challenge mostly due to his size/strength, but Mormeck and Pianeta were worthless. I hope we can see Wladimir face the likes of Perez, Jennings, Pulev, Fury, Wilder and even guys like Chisora, Arreola, etc.

The thing is, between all the shit defenses like a badly faded Mormeck, there have been quality opponents like Haye, Chagaev, Povetkin - even Thompson and Peter were decent opponents.



FelixTrinidad said:


> Although I do give him the benefit of the doubt regarding Mandos I REFUSE to believe his accusations that nobody wants to fight Wlad.


Yeah, everybody has to fight mandatories and after all the hard work Wlad has done to get his hands on those belts, he don't wanna give them up. I don't blame any titlist or champion for obliging every mandatory to keep the belts.

We all want to see every champion face the best competition out there, but there have been blatant ducks from Klitschko in recent years. How else do you explain the Povetkin situation? Haye pulled out of numerous fights. Valuev turned Wlad down. Fury has turned him down. Years ago K2 even reached out to James Toney and was rejected. Who else do you want the man to fight that he hasn't already beat or at least tried to get in the ring?



FelixTrinidad said:


> Wlad is not destroying you, he is not utterly knocking your fucking head off like Tyson... he will just jab and grab you to a UD or into an eventually late tko/ko. Why the Hell is anyone scared of that? They are not scared..


Yes, Wlad fights safety first and a few of his recent defenses have been utterly disgusting to watch. But the fact remains that he has systematically beat down many of the guys he's faced over the years en route to an eventual stoppage. It's one thing to talk shit from outside the ring, another thing to be in there with him on the receiving end of those jabs/rights (even if they are in between a bunch of grabbing and mauling). A lot of guys haven't exactly rushed at the chance to fight the champ and most of the shit talkers that did get in the ring with him seemed to get really quiet after the first few rounds of their fight.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

Montero said:


> Because of Vitali's performance against Lennox Lewis (a loss mind you), some will always think Vitali>Wladimir. But many, if not most, boxing experts have said over the years that Wlad is the better Klitschko (including the late, great, Emmanuel Steward). Guys like Freddie Roach and Lou DiBella have always maintained that Wlad beats Vitali.
> 
> That's logical so I can't disagree but I guess we have our own opinions.
> 
> ...


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Montero said:


> Solid point. Wach was an OK challenge mostly due to his size/strength, but Mormeck and Pianeta were worthless. I hope we can see Wladimir face the likes of Perez, Jennings, Pulev, Fury, Wilder and even guys like Chisora, Arreola, etc.
> 
> The thing is, between all the shit defenses like a badly faded Mormeck, there have been quality opponents like Haye, Chagaev, Povetkin - even Thompson and Peter were decent opponents.
> 
> ...


No I refuse to believe that Wlad was seen by many as 'favored' over Vitali.. That's an absurd joke and you should know it. The vast majority was picking Vitali in any h2h situation.. Wlad would get knocked out by any version of Vitali Pre-2012..

Of course Manny picked Wlad.. WLAD pays him.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Oh he does make more money.. but it's not about the money in this regard because the difference is not enough.
> 
> What I mean is this....... You could make a shit load of money in other Economically powerful Countries like Germany,Japan,China, even the UK.. BUT when it comes to Boxing as of right now USA is still the BOXING CAPITAL of the World.. ESPECIALLY FOR HEAVYWEIGHTS. It's a tradition, it's history, it's glamour when it comes to HW.
> 
> ...


But how do you measure legacy? Is it how you are seen by the fans/TV networks at the time? Given the current situation with the heavyweights, I do think Wlad's reign will be seen upon more favourably in the next few years than now. I don't really think this should affect his legacy too much, Rigondeaux is a bloody good fighter, yet he hasn't got the TV recognition he deserves. Besides, all told, money matters more than legacy, and he gets tons of it in Germany. He's at #24 top paid athletes in the world as it is, #3 in boxing I think, he can be proud of that, and the end of the day, if you've got your money and your marbles (let's face it, who realistically is left to batter him now) who gives a shit what the fans thought of you. I have him just missing out, you gotta show more than jab and grab to be TOP 10 ATG division-wise


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Eoghan said:


> But how do you measure legacy? Is it how you are seen by the fans/TV networks at the time? Given the current situation with the heavyweights, I do think Wlad's reign will be seen upon more favourably in the next few years than now. I don't really think this should affect his legacy too much, Rigondeaux is a bloody good fighter, yet he hasn't got the TV recognition he deserves. Besides, all told, money matters more than legacy, and he gets tons of it in Germany. He's at #24 top paid athletes in the world as it is, #3 in boxing I think, he can be proud of that, and the end of the day, if you've got your money and your marbles (let's face it, who realistically is left to batter him now)* who gives a shit what the fans thought of you.* I have him just missing out, you gotta show more than jab and grab to be TOP 10 ATG division-wise


I agree with most of what you said, but I sort of disagree with this.. We have no idea what Wlad cares about because we are not in his shoes.
My Mom never worried about jobs because my grandparents run Businesses and gave her a great childhood growing up.. so she never viewed money the same way as say someone who grew up in an American Trailer Park and never went to College.

Wladimir have money and he have had money for over a Decade now......... I have not witnessed any evidence of him especially caring about cash or spending too much. Obviously he cares............ but he have had it for so long I think he also cares a lot about his legacy.

It's just like Lennox Lewis.. he could have made 30-40 more Million if he fought on until 2007.. but he decided not to.. because money haven't been an issue with Lennox for a very long time.

It's just like if you have had hot girlfriends or is current seeing a hot girl... you are not always raving about her looks... as oppose to someone who never dated a hot girl.. who will view looks in a much more important light than you do...

I believe Wlad cares... and I believe he will do something about it. Why do you think he is pushing so hard to fight a legit American Heavyweight? In fact I think he cares so much about his legacy.. he will fight on until 40-41 .. just to see if the Joshuas and the Wilders become the real deal.


----------



## Eoghan (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I agree with most of what you said, but I sort of disagree with this.. We have no idea what Wlad cares about because we are not in his shoes.
> My Mom never worried about jobs because my grandparents run Businesses and gave her a great childhood growing up.. so she never viewed money the same way as say someone who grew up in an American Trailer Park and never went to College.
> 
> Wladimir have money and he have had money for over a Decade now......... I have not witnessed any evidence of him especially caring about cash or spending too much. Obviously he cares............ but he have had it for so long I think he also cares a lot about his legacy.
> ...


I don't fall in that category!:lol:
Fair enough, but this of all stages is the bonus money stage, he probably knows deep down that this isn't the best version of him, I just don't think he'll take on any more unnecessary risks, like, say, Wilder, who doesn't have a massive name yet. There isn't a super-dangerous big name out there really, somebody risky, yet worth the risk, Pulev is I suppose is the leading candidate, yet he had his hands full early on against Thompson and isn't a massive puncher, more a wear-down guy
Look at David Haye for example, he was inactive after the Wlad fight, but yet he got two big fights (notwithstanding the Fury episode) against British names who he knew/knows are very beatable, yet he didn't want to fight Charr, who's not gonna roll in the dough


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Masters said:


> HBO refused to broadcast his fight with Chageav for the lineal HW title. If he is being shunned like that in his most important fights , there is no way he can be an ATG.


So now HBO determines the worth of fighters & their legacies? Ha! You guys are fuckin' funny.........

Of course he's top 10 already and these posters ranking such fighters as Schmeling, Liston, Johnson, etc. above him are talking shit as per usual. Who exactly did Mike Tyson beat to establish himself above Wladimir? Did we forget his knockout loss to Buster Douglas or did we give too much credit for his fight against an old washed up Holmes? Tyson could rank higher than Wlad just based on him being the youngest just as Foreman based on him being the oldest, but these other fighters? Based on what wins exactly? Patterson?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> So now HBO determines the worth of fighters & their legacies? Ha! You guys are fuckin' funny.........
> 
> Of course he's top 10 already and these posters ranking such fighters as Schmeling, Liston, Johnson, etc. above him are talking shit as per usual. Who exactly did Mike *Tyson beat to establish himself above Wladimir*? Did we forget his knockout loss to Buster Douglas or did we give too much credit for his fight against an old washed up Holmes? Tyson could rank higher than Wlad just based on him being the youngest just as Foreman based on him being the oldest, but these other fighters? Based on what wins exactly? Patterson?


Prime Tony Tucker is a greater win than any opponent Wladimir ever beat... name me one guy that could have beaten Prime Tony Tucker from Wladimir's resume?

Do it.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

jorodz said:


> fair question. in terms of my tiers they go like this
> 
> ali
> 
> ...


Fair enough, an argument could be made for Klitschko above Frazier IMO but fair list no doubt.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Prime Tony Tucker is a greater win than any opponent Wladimir ever beat... name me one guy that could have beaten Prime Tony Tucker from Wladimir's resume?
> 
> Do it.


Wlad would've beaten seven shades of shit outta Tucker, prove otherwise.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Nick said:


> Wlad is the champ now but he hasn't been lineal/Ring champ for anywhere close to Joe Louis reign. Wlad didn't become THE TRU Champ until 2009. Louis was THE MAN for 11 years. Wlad is the best HW now but he was merely a beltholder before 2009. Those years when he held the WBO belt cant count towards that list of longest reigning champs. Also, just 2 years ago some thought Vitali might still beat Wlad. Wlad has fought better guys I agree BUT I believe Wlad would have one more loss if Vitali wasn't around. Chisora is a bad match up for him isn't he? Not saying Dereck would beat Wlad but it's possible. Also Sam Peter wouldn't have been deteriorated so badly for the second Wlad fight if not for Vitali's beatdown. Things to think about.


Chisora is the perfect fighter to get KO'd by Wladimir, when they were scheduled to fight veryone on ESB was saying how it was a lame defense by Wlad against a fighter that didn't deserve it. Now that that he fought and got his ass kicked by Haye (who Wlad humiliated) all of a sudden he's a scary opponent for Klitschko LOL.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> *Wlad would've beaten seven shades of shit outta Tucker*, prove otherwise.


Not really....... Tony Tucker was a 6'5 super heavyweight with great boxing skills, a granite chin, supreme jab, very good power, decent counter punching abilities, and is capable of ruining a fight even worst than Wlad. He would have just hugged and clinched Wlad and won 4-5 of 12 rounds. Wlad would not have beaten 7 shades of shit outta Tucker.. that's absurdity and really shows your complete lack of boxing knowledge in regards to Tucker.

Tucker went 24 Rounds against Prime Tyson and Young Pre Prime Lewis.
Wlad went two rounds against Sanders.. WHO HIMSELF said that he thought Tucker was one of the greatest talents from the late 80's.

Tucker would have had a real shot against Wlad......................but ya keep hating on a fighter you never seen lol.


----------



## MadcapMaxie (May 21, 2013)

Well...usually I say yes to this because a Great champion fights and wins and Wlad has very good longevity with a number of defenses many by KO...then I look at his opponents who he beat and who beat him and it's underwhelming to say the least. People say about Holmes and Marciano their opposition wasn't that great either but they fought and beat the best in their respective times and with Marciano particularly re matched those who gave him the most trouble immediately. Wlad however had the benefit of his brother taking on tougher opponents so he didn't have to and of course they never fought each other. Outside the top 10 for me.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Chisora is the perfect fighter to get KO'd by Wladimir, when they were scheduled to fight veryone on ESB was saying how it was a lame defense by Wlad against a fighter that didn't deserve it. Now that that he fought and got his ass kicked by Haye (who Wlad humiliated) all of a sudden he's a scary opponent for Klitschko LOL.


I remember seeing the HBO Face off and thought Wladimir was really mad and was gonna kill Haye.. turned out Wlad was not mad at all rofl.
That wasn't a humiliation that was more like two guys circling each other for 12 rounds.. but one guy throwing the jab and the other guy just ducking and doing stupid head moves... the guy throwing the jab end up winning one of the most pathetic HW Title fights of all times.

Humiliation would be like Hopkins-Pavlik lol.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

Ruskull is like a poor man's Freedom.
:lol:


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Not really....... Tony Tucker was a 6'5 super heavyweight with great boxing skills, a granite chin, supreme jab, very good power, decent counter punching abilities, and is capable of ruining a fight even worst than Wlad. He would have just hugged and clinched Wlad and won 4-5 of 12 rounds. Wlad would not have beaten 7 shades of shit outta Tucker.. that's absurdity and really shows your complete lack of boxing knowledge in regards to Tucker.
> 
> Tucker went 24 Rounds against Prime Tyson and Young Pre Prime Lewis.
> Wlad went two rounds against Sanders.. WHO HIMSELF said that he thought Tucker was one of the greatest talents from the late 80's.
> ...


I like the way you took Tucker's best moments and compared them to Wlad's worst. What a great debater you are! So now Tucker was an ATG jabber with power in both hands? Wlad has the best Heavyweight jab since Holmes and some would argue Wlad's is better based on power and his ability to hook off that jab. To even be spoken in the same breath as Larry Holmes is a feat in itself, let alone have your jab be compared to his..........

Show me a better HW left hook off the jab or straight right hand, I bet you can't. I bet you're one of those assholes that sings Tyson's praises yet bashes Wlad for weak competition. There were only 2 real great eras of HW boxing comp including Ali's and that of Lennox Lewis, and Lennox didn't fight the best guys during their "primes" see Tyson & Bowe. The Bowe match wasn't Lennox's fault, it was Bowe's but it does matter that they never fought.

You complain about Wlad clinching excessively yet never mention the way Ali fought.......weird. Ali hugged so much early in his fights you would've sworn he was afraid to engage!


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

MadcapMaxie said:


> Well...usually I say yes to this because a Great champion fights and wins and Wlad has very good longevity with a number of defenses many by KO...then I look at his opponents who he beat and who beat him and it's underwhelming to say the least. People say about Holmes and Marciano their opposition wasn't that great either but they fought and beat the best in their respective times and with Marciano particularly re matched those who gave him the most trouble immediately. Wlad however had the benefit of his brother taking on tougher opponents so he didn't have to and of course they never fought each other. Outside the top 10 for me.


Vitali fought the easier available opponents, that's a fact.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I remember seeing the HBO Face off and thought Wladimir was really mad and was gonna kill Haye.. turned out Wlad was not mad at all rofl.
> That wasn't a humiliation that was more like two guys circling each other for 12 rounds.. but one guy throwing the jab and the other guy just ducking and doing stupid head moves... the guy throwing the jab end up winning one of the most pathetic HW Title fights of all times.
> 
> Humiliation would be like Hopkins-Pavlik lol.


How many rounds did Haye win? Thanks for playin'................


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> I like the way you took Tucker's best moments and compared them to Wlad's worst. What a great debater you are! So now Tucker was an ATG jabber with power in both hands? Wlad has the best Heavyweight jab since Holmes and some would argue Wlad's is better based on power and his ability to hook off that jab. To even be spoken in the same breath as Larry Holmes is a feat in itself, let alone have your jab be compared to his..........
> 
> Show me a better HW left hook off the jab or straight right hand, I bet you can't. I bet you're one of those assholes that sings Tyson's praises yet bashes Wlad for weak competition. There were only 2 real great eras of HW boxing comp including Ali's and that of Lennox Lewis, and Lennox didn't fight the best guys during their "primes" see Tyson & Bowe. The Bowe match wasn't Lennox's fault, it was Bowe's but it does matter that they never fought.
> 
> You complain about Wlad clinching excessively yet never mention the way Ali fought.......weird. Ali hugged so much early in his fights you would've sworn he was afraid to engage!


Damn I smell your butt hurt from here. Get the fuck out of my thread little boy. Rofl. Listen to you all agitaed and shit because somebody spoke ill of your great Ukrainian Glass Jaw God Wladimir.

:lol:


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm quite sure Wlad would have no problem fighting and KOing JCG, Arreola, Kevin Johnson, Briggs, Solis, Adamek, Charr, or Chisora. Johnson, Gomez & Solis are the only fighters on that list with any defense to worry about & their offence isn't good enough to compete seriously against Wlad barring a lucky punch.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Damn I smell your butt hurt from here. Get the fuck out of my thread little boy. Rofl. Listen to you all agitaed and shit because somebody spoke ill of your great Ukrainian Glass Jaw God Wladimir.
> 
> :lol:


Just as I thought, you have nothing............again, thanks for playin' and see ya round.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Just as I thought, you have nothing............again, thanks for playin' and see ya round.


I already explained to you retard regarding how good Tucker is... Name me 10 fights that you seen of Tuckers. Go I'll wait.

It's like you can't handle criticism of Wlad or you implode. God damn.. I bet you live in your Mom's basement right?
Feeding the rats?

You look like Brandon Rios don't you?

God damn Muppet.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

These type threads are why serious boxing fans don't bother with this shit. 

PS:

Be sure and respond to my post well after I'm gone so you'll appear to have the last word, even if you're saying nothing of substance.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> I'm quite sure Wlad would have no problem fighting and KOing JCG, Arreola, Kevin Johnson, Briggs, Solis, Adamek, Charr, or Chisora. Johnson, Gomez & Solis are the only fighters on that list with any defense to worry about & their offence isn't good enough to compete seriously against Wlad barring a lucky punch.


:rofl.. Shoulda, Coulda,Woulda,..............damn that sounds like Vitali's career. We talking the quitter or Sander's son? Don't get the two confused now.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> These type threads are why serious boxing fans don't bother with this shit.
> 
> PS:
> 
> Be sure and respond to my post well after I'm gone so you'll appear to have the last word, even if you're saying nothing of substance.


P.S

Shut the fuck up and get the Hell out of my thread. This is a place for civilized beings to discuss boxing.. not a place for CF Rejects.


----------



## Theron (May 17, 2013)

no no no NO NO NO NO NO! NO!!!


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I already explained to you retard regarding how good Tucker is... Name me 10 fights that you seen of Tuckers. Go I'll wait.
> 
> It's like you can't handle criticism of Wlad or you implode. God damn.. I bet you live in your Mom's basement right?
> Feeding the rats?
> ...


Wow, great comebacks bro, you rock.

Still waiting for a serious argument as to how Tucker would have a serious chance against Wlad.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Wow, great comebacks bro, you rock.
> 
> Still waiting for a serious argument as to how Tucker would have a serious chance against Wlad.


Prime vs Prime?

6'5 Tucker with a good jab, reach, and ability to fight in the center without getting bullrushed by the likes of Tyson/Young Lewis. Very slick defensively and have the patience to counter against big punchers. Good upper cut and with hands as fast as Wlad's. Love clinching and is actually a master at it, see not only the Tyson fight but the first half of the Lewis fight.. He actually knows how to clinch and stay within the inside for long periods without refs notice prior to the breaks. Fights dirty and have some good strength against fellow big men... good power... and actually goes to the body.

I'm not saying Wlad would lose.. but Tucker is a true Elite level Talent........... now break down how Wlad would 'beat the shit out of him' when Prime Tyson couldn't.

You fucking mis informed swine.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> P.S
> 
> Shut the fuck up and get the Hell out of my thread. This is a place for civilized beings to discuss boxing.. not a place for CF Rejects.


Nah, I'll post where I like and you won't do shit about it.

Back on point:

Post up some great jabbing moments from the great Tony Tucker. I'd like to see a nice crisp 1-2 to an opponent with a pulse. How about some nice 1 punch KO's of some fighters we all heard of? Surely there are some great videos of Tucker on Youtube right?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> *Nah, I'll post where I like and you won't do shit about it.*
> 
> Back on point:
> 
> Post up some great jabbing moments from the great Tony Tucker. I'd like to see a nice crisp 1-2 to an opponent with a pulse. How about some nice 1 punch KO's of some fighters we all heard of? Surely there are some great videos of Tucker on Youtube right?


I just found out you are like 50 years old dude.. rofl.
I already broke one Middle Age ****** in Strike.. it will be my immense pleasure to spar you and break another old man.

Man... you gonna be doing the Amir Khan dance after a jab from me . :rofl

I bet you walk around with a little Confederate flag and a sticker that said 'We'll win the next one' :lol:

I bet you just HATE Anthony Joshua right? Right? I knew it.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Prime vs Prime?
> 
> 6'5 Tucker with a good jab, reach, and ability to fight in the center without getting bullrushed by the likes of Tyson/Young Lewis. Very slick defensively and have the patience to counter against big punchers. Good upper cut and with hands as fast as Wlad's. Love clinching and is actually a master at it, see not only the Tyson fight but the first half of the Lewis fight.. He actually knows how to clinch and stay within the inside for long periods without refs notice prior to the breaks. Fights dirty and have some good strength against fellow big men... good power... and actually goes to the body.
> 
> ...


Good post! Until the last line.......at least you're trying.

Wlad would keep distance like he usually does, and land the right hand from the outside. He'd pepper him with the jab and hook and lead to a big right hand finish. Wk's combos are much more powerful and it'd probably end like the Brock fight.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I just found out you are like 50 years old dude.. rofl.
> I already broke one Middle Age ****** in Strike.. it will be my immense pleasure to spar you and break another old man.
> 
> Man... you gonna be doing the Amir Khan dance after a jab from me . :rofl
> ...


Punk ass bitch talking like he knows shit when he doesn't know diddly..........

I remember you from ESB and you still suck.


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

RUSKULL said:


> Good post! Until the last line.......at least you're trying.
> 
> Wlad would keep distance like he usually does, and land the right hand from the outside. He'd pepper him with the jab and hook and lead to a big right hand finish. Wk's combos are much more powerful and it'd probably end like the Brock fight.


The problem is Wlad would be backing up most of the time also against a large guy who can match for size so he'd be on the defensize well early in the fight. Clinching when Tucker closes the distance wouldn't be as effective as we saw how other large men such as Sanders were able to throw him off when he tried to do his lean and clinch tactic, also in this fantasy bouts, we have to take into account that the referee wouldn't be someone who acts as Wlad's personal body guard for most of the match allowing him to foul his opponents with no worry of any serious point deductions or disqualification.


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

RUSKULL said:


> Punk ass bitch talking like he knows shit when he doesn't know diddly..........
> 
> I remember you from ESB and you still suck.


Yes I also remember when you said Wlad would beat Prime Mike but when it was made clear that Wlad has literally no inside game and makes Lewis look like Toney on the inside you ran away from the thread.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> My List:
> 
> Muhammad Ali
> Joe Louis
> ...


Liston in the top ten with a total of one successful title defense? 2-2 in title fights... Devastating KO's of sub 200 lbs heavies (AKA cruisers). Both Klits and some of the Klit's opponents should be rated higher than Liston.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

*27:30-28:00*






Really shows the difference between an aging Lewis and an aging Wlad.

Past Prime and Old Lennox simply pushed Tyson away each time Tyson lunges in like Povetkin.. just jab and PUSHED him back to create more distance.
When Lewis finally does grab Tyson... the ref almost immediately break them apart.. resuming the action.

It's a minor but very important difference in styles between Lennox and Wlad.. Wlad grabs, Lewis pushes you away to create distance.. and when Lewis is inside he's usually punching.. Wladimir just grabs ahold of you like a vase and stop doing anything outside of smothering you.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Chisora is the perfect fighter to get KO'd by Wladimir, when they were scheduled to fight veryone on ESB was saying how it was a lame defense by Wlad against a fighter that didn't deserve it. Now that that he fought and got his ass kicked by Haye (who Wlad humiliated) all of a sudden he's a scary opponent for Klitschko LOL.


Chisora was a lame defense back when Wlad wanted to cherry pic him. Chisora had like 12 fights back then. Now, Chisora is in better shape, has way more experience too. Don't use the Haye beat Chisora,Wlad beat Haye therefore would beat Chisora argument. That Is not how boxing works. Styles matter. Manny Steward said Chisora might very well be a tough fight for Wlad.


----------



## Masters (May 20, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Wlad would've beaten seven shades of shit outta Tucker, prove otherwise.


Tucker years past his prime did a million times better than prime Vitali against past prime Lewis. Vitali demolishes Wlad. Wlad comes up way shorther in the talent pool against Tucker.


----------



## 2377 (Jun 6, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> No I refuse to believe that Wlad was seen by many as 'favored' over Vitali.. That's an absurd joke and you should know it. The vast majority was picking Vitali in any h2h situation..


The "vast majority" of whom, internet chatroom posters? What do boxing trainers, managers, promoters, etc say?



FelixTrinidad said:


> Wlad would get knocked out by any version of Vitali Pre-2012..


Seriously, the guy who couldn't stop Kevin Johnson or a shot Shannon Briggs knocks out Wlad?



FelixTrinidad said:


> Of course Manny picked Wlad.. WLAD pays him.


Actually he "picked" Wlad way back while he was still trianing Lennox Lewis. He used to tell Lennox, "it's the younger Klitschko that you gotta watch out for".

Look, I'm a Vitali fan, I think he's the more exciting Klitschko and definitely the more natural-born fighter. But let's be honest, what is Vitali's greatest win? An obese Chris Arreola? A fat, disinterested Sam Peter who only showed up for the paycheck? LHW Tomasz Adamek? None of those wins make the top 5 on Wladimir's list.

You guys love to talk about "head to head" and "would have" or "could have" but none of that means shit.

Anyway, I think Wlad cracks the lower portion of the ATG HW top 10, Vitali is maybe around #20 .


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> Yes I also remember when you said Wlad would beat Prime Mike but when it was made clear that Wlad has literally no inside game and makes Lewis look like Toney on the inside you ran away from the thread.


I never run from anyone, you musta mistaken me for someone else.

Riddle me this Leftsmash, Why would an athletic 6 foot 7 inch tall fighter with an ATG jab need an inside fight game against a fighter less than 6 feet tall? Fighting a little guy like Mike on the inside is ridiculously stupid wouldn't you say?


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Masters said:


> Tucker years past his prime did a million times better than prime Vitali against past prime Lewis. Vitali demolishes Wlad. Wlad comes up way shorther in the talent pool against Tucker.


GTFOH.........LOL

The only thing Tucker did better than Wlad is clinch and fight on the inside, which is stupid for a tall fighter and shows he lacks rings smarts.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Mr. Brain said:


> Liston in the top ten with a total of one successful title defense? 2-2 in title fights... Devastating KO's of sub 200 lbs heavies (AKA cruisers). Both Klits and some of the Klit's opponents should be rated higher than Liston.


Agree 100%


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> I never run from anyone, you musta mistaken me for someone else.
> 
> Riddle me this Leftsmash, Why would an athletic *6 foot 7 inch* tall fighter with an ATG jab need an inside fight game against a fighter less than 6 feet tall? Fighting a little guy like Mike on the inside is ridiculously stupid wouldn't you say?


6'6 you stupid fucking retard.. Do you love adding an inch to everything?
:lol::lol:

Klittards trying to find every little edge they can... you can't even keep height stats right.. Piece of shit.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> *27:30-28:00*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough point but pushing your opponent is illegal, you are aware of this right?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> GTFOH.........LOL
> 
> The only thing Tucker did better than Wlad is clinch and fight on the inside, *which is stupid for a tall fighter* and shows he lacks rings smarts.


But not if you are fighting another good/very good tall fighter you deluded moron... Inside skills might be the tie breaker in a fight between two good super heavys.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Fair enough point but pushing your opponent is illegal, you are aware of this right?


Shut up.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> 6'6 you stupid fucking retard.. Do you love adding an inch to everything?
> :lol::lol:
> 
> Klittards trying to find every little edge they can... you can't even keep height stats right.. Piece of shit.


Fuck off, Wlad's actually listed at 6'6½" to be exact. Do your homework lil boy............


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I'm aware of my dick in your Mama's mouth.


So you're a necrophiliac? My mother died of cancer about 9 years ago you piece of shit. It's easy to be tough on the internet you little ***, I knbow you wouldn't have the balls to say that shit to my face.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> But not if you are fighting another good/very good tall fighter you deluded moron... Inside skills might be the tie breaker in a fight between two good super heavys.


The mere fact you're comparing Tucker's skillset to Wlad's shows you have no clue.


----------



## kenny black (Jun 5, 2013)

If he retired today I think he has done enough to be in the top 10. He has dominated the Heavyweight division like few have. 

Would he have been as dominating in other era's? That question is subjective and you can really only judge a boxer by how well he does in his own era. And in that respect Wlad ranks very high.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Nick said:


> Chisora was a lame defense back when Wlad wanted to cherry pic him. Chisora had like 12 fights back then. Now, Chisora is in better shape, has way more experience too. Don't use the Haye beat Chisora,Wlad beat Haye therefore would beat Chisora argument. That Is not how boxing works. Styles matter. Manny Steward said Chisora might very well be a tough fight for Wlad.


Manny was hyping the fight as any good trainer would. Wlad is all wrong for Chisora, too big, too accurate and too much power in either hand.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Fuck off, Wlad's actually listed at 6'6½" to be exact. Do your homework lil boy............


6' 6" (1.98 m)
Wladimir Klitschko, Height

Born: March 25, 1976 (age 37), Semey, Kazakhstan
Height: 6' 6" (1.98 m)

height	6′ 6″ / 198cm

that's 3 different sources.. Where's the 6'7 you fucking moron.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> So you're a necrophiliac? My mother died of cancer about 9 years ago you piece of shit. It's easy to be tough on the internet you little ***, I knbow you wouldn't have the balls to say that shit to my face.


I apologize for that... and I really am sorry........ I'll change the quote.. but if you think I'm scared one bit of a 50 year old ****** piece of shit like you.. think again.

I'll break your entire Universe and force feed you Chisora's dick you spineless cow fuck.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> The mere fact you're comparing Tucker's skillset to Wlad's shows you have no clue.


List me 10 fights you seen of Tuckers.. List me gifs which show his supposed weaknesses. 
Let's see these imaginary weaknesses of his.

Man you butt hurt Klittard defending your glass jaw *** hero.

Go back to CF.

I bet you hate Anthony Joshua don't you? Hmm I wonder why.

I

WONDER

WHY.

Spineless Borsch drinking cummy cum cunt.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

kenny black said:


> If he retired today I think he has done enough to be in the top 10. He has dominated the Heavyweight division like few have.
> 
> Would he have been as dominating in other era's? That question is subjective and you can really only judge a boxer by how well he does in his own era. And in that respect Wlad ranks very high.


I agree with this. Two of the best eras were the 70's with Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, etc. and the 90's with Lewis, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Moorer, etc. The former being the better of the 2 by far. Marciano's era was terrible as was Holmes' & Louis', as well as many others but some of these haters like to pretend today's era is the worst ever. It's their way of putting down the current champs so they don't seem like the fools they are for picking every fighter to beat them!


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> I apologize for that... and I really am sorry........ I'll change the quote.. but if you think I'm scared one bit of a 50 year old ****** piece of shit like you.. think again.
> 
> I'll break your entire Universe and force feed you Chisora's dick you spineless cow fuck.


Yeah, I terrified of a wimpy little keyboard warrior.........fuck off. I don't need to bring your mother into this, it's not her fault her boy tosses salads in prison for a living.............

Oh, and "spineless cow fuck"? Really? Them are some good drugs bro, puff puff pass............


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> Shut up.


ATG comeback bro, keep up the good work! :happy


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

RUSKULL said:


> I never run from anyone, you musta mistaken me for someone else.
> 
> Riddle me this Leftsmash, Why would an athletic 6 foot 7 inch tall fighter with an ATG jab need an inside fight game against a fighter less than 6 feet tall? Fighting a little guy like Mike on the inside is ridiculously stupid wouldn't you say?


No definitely was you.

Well tell me why wouldn't he at all? Lennox when he fought shot Tyson in 2002 still needed a good mid range to inside game where he hammered Mike with Uppercuts, fortunately he never had the luxury Wlad did fighting in Europe where the referee let's wlad foul as much as he wants leaving him to not any bother with improving his inside skills.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> List me 10 fights you seen of Tuckers.. List me gifs which show his supposed weaknesses.
> Let's see these imaginary weaknesses of his.
> 
> Man you butt hurt Klittard defending your glass jaw *** hero.
> ...


Spineless Borsch drinking cummy cum cunt? WTF is that? Dude, relax mon, you scaring the kids with great lines like that. :lol:


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> No definitely was you.
> 
> Well tell me why wouldn't he at all? Lennox when he fought shot Tyson in 2002 still needed a good mid range to inside game where he hammered Mike with Uppercuts, fortunately he never had the luxury Wlad did fighting in Europe where the referee let's wlad foul as much as he wants leaving him to not any bother with improving his inside skills.


Ever watch Ali fight? He clinched more than Tucker & Wlad combined ya dumbass.............

If Tyson's era was so good why did he fight the likes of Peter Fuckin McNeeley? He didn't fight Bowe either and when he did fight Holyfield he got his ass handed to him TWICE. Lennox did the same but to a shot fighter.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> No definitely was you.
> 
> Well tell me why wouldn't he at all? Lennox when he fought shot Tyson in 2002 still needed a good mid range to inside game where he hammered Mike with Uppercuts, fortunately he never had the luxury Wlad did fighting in Europe where the referee let's wlad foul as much as he wants leaving him to not any bother with improving his inside skills.


Worth another quote:

Lennox needed a better mid range & inside game because his jab was good but not as good as Wlad's, juss sayin'

Of course LL had better inside fighting ability than Wlad, that goes without saying.


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

BTW Felix, what the fuck is CF?


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Spineless Borsch drinking cummy cum cunt? WTF is that? Dude, relax mon, you scaring the kids with great lines like that. :lol:


List me 10 fights of Tuckers retard.. You are 50 years old.. and you worship Wlad.

You brought his underwear didn't you.. Why do you hate Lewis and Joshua.

I'll literally snap your jaw bone in half... how close are you to Los Angeles. Let's do a few sparring sessions.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> BTW Felix, what the fuck is CF?


CF is the place where your kind converge and sit in little cyber circles to talk shit about a certain type of athletes.

My thread is a place for proper boxing discussions and for true boxing fans only who don't discriminate base on creed,race,sex,or religion.
My place is not a place for your kind or type.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> *Ever watch Ali fight? He clinched more than Tucker & Wlad combined ya dumbass.............*
> 
> If Tyson's era was so good why did he fight the likes of Peter Fuckin McNeeley? He didn't fight Bowe either and when he did fight Holyfield he got his ass handed to him TWICE. Lennox did the same but to a shot fighter.


You just hate Ali dont you? I bet you loved it when he got Parkinsons.. I bet you wish he died in the 60's..

You actually said 'if Tyson's era is so good why did he fight Peter Mcneeley'

what the fuck does that have to do with the 90's era. Mcneeley was a sideshow he wasn't even a Pro Boxer....

Ali rarely clinched during the 60's you buffon... he only clinched once his legs were shot and gone.

Did you not watch 60's Ali? Of course you didn't you were too busy hating on his rights and beliefs...........


----------



## RUSKULL (Jun 3, 2013)

Hahahahahahaha

So much funny it was too good for a simple "lol" I'm 47 years old, just had a B Day at the beginning of this month. I was born & raised on Long Island and lived there for my first 38 years, but now I live in the lovely State of North Carolina & I'd be happy to smack the shit outta you whenever you're in the area.

Listen you little assclown, I have Ali ranked #2 all time at HW, behind the great Joe Louis. I don't give a rat's ass about Ali's beliefs either, nor do I care what color he is. My Grandfather died from complications due to Parkinson's Disease so I doubt I'd be happy about anyone getting it toward the end of their life. I also have Lewis solidly in the top 5 based on accomplishments & top 3 head to head. I seriously doubt you have him ranked as highly. As a person I have Louis ranked higher than any other boxer because he was a great role model for kids, unlike Ali or Tyson (younger version, he's not so bad now)


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> Manny was hyping the fight as any good trainer would. Wlad is all wrong for Chisora, too big, too accurate and too much power in either hand.


 Too Big? Oh stop it. Chsora fought Fury and Helenius. It's a weight division not a height division. With all Wlad's power he fought like trash against Povetkin whereas Marco Huck gave a thrilling and brave effort. Wlad failed to KO the 210 pound Haye as well. Wlad only looks the part, he doesn't fight like a monster.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

RUSKULL said:


> *Hahahahahahaha
> 
> So much funny it was too good for a simple "lol" I'm 47 years old, just had a B Day at the beginning of this month. I was born & raised on Long Island and lived there for my first 38 years, but now I live in the lovely State of North Carolina & I'd be happy to smack the shit outta you whenever you're in the area.
> *
> Listen you little assclown, I have Ali ranked #2 all time at HW, behind the great Joe Louis. I don't give a rat's ass about Ali's beliefs either, nor do I care what color he is. My Grandfather died from complications due to Parkinson's Disease so I doubt I'd be happy about anyone getting it toward the end of their life. I also have Lewis solidly in the top 5 based on accomplishments & top 3 head to head. I seriously doubt you have him ranked as highly. As a person I have Louis ranked higher than any other boxer because he was a great role model for kids, unlike Ali or Tyson (younger version, he's not so bad now)


This is CHB.. not eHarmony..

Get your dicks somewhere else.


----------



## Nick (Jun 5, 2013)

FelixTrinidad said:


> 6' 6" (1.98 m)
> Wladimir Klitschko, Height
> 
> Born: March 25, 1976 (age 37), Semey, Kazakhstan
> ...


And to be fair, when Wlad was on Conan O Brien's show to promote the Klitschko dvd,Wlad said he was 6'5.





 proof

Wlad is a good dude tho


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

RUSKULL said:


> Ever watch Ali fight? He clinched more than Tucker & Wlad combined ya dumbass.............
> 
> If Tyson's era was so good why did he fight the likes of Peter Fuckin McNeeley? He didn't fight Bowe either and when he did fight Holyfield he got his ass handed to him TWICE. Lennox did the same but to a shot fighter.


Now you're just talking out of your ass, if you had seen the thread where Wlad's were counted which convieniently enough you are your ilk were absent from or at least disappeared pretty fast after it became too hard to defend the disgusting foul fest against Povetkin, Ali at least was able to position his opponents into mid range and was capable of throwing an uppercut if he had to unlike Wlad who couldn't in a pro fight if his life depended on it.

Never mentioned McNeeley nor did I defend his match up with him but it was understandable from a POV as Mike had been in prison for 3 years and it was just his welcome back party, funny that you cherry pick that one out of the bunch. Regardless Tyson was just a plodder by the time he was out and was never the same.

If you'd actually done your homework you would of seen that the Bowe fight was lined up and Holyfield was fed to Tyson before the match with Bowe could be made but of course it never happened because he lost, again I never mentioned this and it doesn't make sense for you to bring it up other than just another useless strawman from a classic Klittard.

Fuck off :lol:


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

bump.


----------



## FelixTrinidad (Jun 3, 2013)

If Wlad gets another 1-2 big wins.. a serious case can be made.

I'm thinking Pulev-Fury or if Wilder is the real deal along with Jennings. Any combination of the four would put him in the top 10. 

This is assuming Wilder and Jennings become as good as expected. (Razer Ruddock/Tony Tucker level)


----------



## Luf (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm now of the opinion that if he's allowed to clinch he's damn near unbeatable.

The following I rate as better heavies still:

Ali
Louis
Liston
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Bowe
Foreman
Holmes

I'm not totally sure who I rate as better between wlad and vitali tbh. I have been flip-flopping on that lately. So I can't convincingly say he's in my top ten.


----------



## charlie harper (May 18, 2013)

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Foreman

6. Frazier
7. Wlad
8. Marciano
9. Tyson
10. Liston 

Just missing: Holyfield, Dempsey, Bowe, Johnson, etc.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

1.Ali
1.5 Louis
3.Holmes/Lewis
5.Holy
6.Tyson
7.Frazier/Marciano/Foreman (Foreman has a very thin resume, though his KO over Moorer becoming the lineal champ again is very great. Marciano unbeaten but didn't fight in strong era. Frazier got ragdolled by Foreman but got Ali on his resume and has beaten about as much top 10 contenders as Marciano each can be ranked ahead of each other)
10.Liston/Wlad

(Dempsey and Johnson unranked, don't know what to do with them)


----------

