# Who was More Impressive: Roy Jones or Floyd Mayweather?



## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Both extremely talented fighters, rose through the weights and fought big name competition. Whose performances and rise to the top was more impressive to you?


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Floyd skill and career


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

When Jones burst on the scene it was unbelievable. The man was just several levels above his competition. He had the power element along with the speed. Going by the eyeball test, Jones was more impressive and his coming out vs. Toney was a bigger win than any of Floyd's early victories. 

As they progressed, Jones level of competition wasn't up to Floyd's, though. Even a faded Cotto and Oscar were better than the guys Jones was facing.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

I think Jones in his prime was so much more athletic than his opponents was one of his biggest advantages while Floyd's weight classes you got guys who are harder hitting and faster than floyd but skill pays the bills.

You compare the two's defense while Jones put on his ear muffs when he gets cornered and hope that he doesn't get nailed to the chin to Floyd's multi-layered defense. Jones got faster hands and punch p4p no doubt but it really again just tell you how skilled Floyd is. To outfight everyone while not having a big punch.


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## The Sweet Science (Jun 5, 2013)

Roy, no doubt. Who was more impressive that Roy in his prime?


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Jones. He beat the better fighters with superior offensive potency and equal defensive prowess.



tliang1000 said:


> You compare the two's defense while Jones put on his ear muffs when he gets cornered and hope that he doesn't get nailed to the chin to Floyd's multi-layered defense.


A gross over simplification of Roy's defense, his shelling up against Tarver wasn't his default defensive style. Cue the know-nothings going about how Jones had nothing but freak athleticism reflexes @SJS20


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## itsmeagain (May 24, 2013)

Roy jones by a mile


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Jones. He beat the better fighters with superior offensive potency and equal defensive prowess.
> 
> A gross over simplification of Roy's defense, his shelling up against Tarver wasn't his default defensive style. Cue the know-nothings going about how Jones had nothing but freak athleticism reflexes @*SJS20*


Well i don't agree with the statement that toney is better than anyone on Floyd's resume. And to me i think it is much more impressive to see a small guy with just decent power able to school bigger guys over and over again without taking much punishment to a guy who is bless with speed and power but boxing IQ is just above average. Skills > Athletic ability for me.


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Jones. He beat the better fighters with superior offensive potency and equal defensive prowess.
> 
> A gross over simplification of Roy's defense, his shelling up against Tarver wasn't his default defensive style. Cue the know-nothings going about how Jones had nothing but freak athleticism reflexes @SJS20


One of the biggest mis-conceptions of the past fifty odd years.

Jones is one of the better defensive fighters of the era just gone. People think of defense as the opposite to flair. Defense is the art of not getting hit, and expression can be just effective as convention. Jones' had the footwork to dictate the range, and the reflexes (as mentioned) to avoid anything once someone got close. If you watch him in his prime, if a fighter would get him on the ropes, he knew how to defend himself. Uppercuts were blocked by putting up his 'ear muffs' and turning his lead palm, as to intercept the incoming punch.

Against the more dangerous fighters, Jones would use a jab to keep range, and thus defensive responsibility.

Finally, people talk about how he's gotten hit more as he's got older, as opposed to someone like Hopkins. That was bound to happen, because firstly, his feet have slowed, but most importantly, his punch variation and general output have declined, which stops him keeping guys off, or having as big a say in negotiating the distance.

WHO NEX'


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> One of the biggest mis-conceptions of the past fifty odd years.
> 
> Jones is one of the better defensive fighters of the era just gone. People think of defense as the opposite to flair. Defense is the art of not getting hit, and expression can be just effective as convention. Jones' had the footwork to dictate the range, and the reflexes (as mentioned) to avoid anything once someone got close. If you watch him in his prime, if a fighter would get him on the ropes, he knew how to defend himself. Uppercuts were blocked by putting up his 'ear muffs' and turning his lead palm, as to intercept the incoming punch.
> 
> ...


Jones didn't have textbook technique, so people make the mistake of saying he had no technique. His techniques worked for him, they wouldn't work for everybody. Hopkins has the more identifiable, textbook style that a guy who isn't as athletic and powerful needs. Hopkins fought on the inside, Roy could move everywhere.

Great observation on how his offensive decline went hand in hand with his defensive decline. Roy doesn't have the stinging jab to keep guys at range any more, so they get closer.

Overall, the technique of Hopkins lends itself to aging more gracefully than the technique of Jones. But Jones did use some great technique in his day.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> Jones didn't have textbook technique, so people make the mistake of saying he had no technique. His techniques worked for him, they wouldn't work for everybody. Hopkins has the more identifiable, textbook style that a guy who isn't as athletic and powerful needs. Hopkins fought on the inside, Roy could move everywhere.
> 
> Great observation on how his offensive decline went hand in hand with his defensive decline. Roy doesn't have the stinging jab to keep guys at range any more, so they get closer.
> 
> Overall, the technique of Hopkins lends itself to aging more gracefully than the technique of Jones. But Jones did use some great technique in his day.


And this is why Floyd is more impressive. Floyd had the athletic ability on top of high boxing IQ and technique. Jones is almost all Athletic abilities, as soon as he slowed down he was done. Bhop is still winning titles while Jones is getting koed left and right to fighting cabbies.


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## Vic (Jun 7, 2012)

Roy hands down imo, as far as impressive goes at least. His performances were more flawless than MayweatherÂ´s, RoyÂ´s performance against Toney tops any performance Floyd had... 
(I would, probably, rate Mayweather above him as far as list goes but prime Roy Jones was more impressive)


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I don't know who impressed more than Roy


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## SJS20 (Jun 8, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> And this is why Floyd is more impressive. Floyd had the athletic ability on top of high boxing IQ and technique. Jones is almost all Athletic abilities, as soon as he slowed down he was done. Bhop is still winning titles while Jones is getting koed left and right to fighting cabbies.


Again, you're wrong about the Boxing IQ.

Listen to the man commentate, his Boxing IQ is there for all to see.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

SJS20 said:


> Again, you're wrong about the Boxing IQ.
> 
> Listen to the man commentate, his Boxing IQ is there for all to see.


I like Roy's commentate. I think he got above avg Boxing IQ. Not saying he is a dumb fighter at all. However he is more offensive minded when he speaks about boxing strategies. I do not really recall him discussing any defensive strategies that often and as well demoing it. 
Roy is really flashy and really fast and powerful but he didn't display the complete boxer abilities like Floyd has where he could overcome any situation.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> And this is why Floyd is more impressive. Floyd had the athletic ability on top of high boxing IQ and technique. Jones is almost all Athletic abilities, as soon as he slowed down he was done. Bhop is still winning titles while Jones is getting koed left and right to fighting cabbies.


We'll have to agree to disagree. Jones knocked the living shit out of people in a way Mayweather never did. His hands were faster relative to his opponents, maybe even overall. And his feet were faster, too. That's pretty damn impressive.

Now, had the OP asked who has had the better overall career I'd be with you.


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

itsmeagain said:


> Roy jones by a mile


But he's black! :scaredas:

Just joking mate, calm down. :smile



SJS20 said:


> One of the biggest mis-conceptions of the past fifty odd years.
> 
> Jones is one of the better defensive fighters of the era just gone. People think of defense as the opposite to flair. Defense is the art of not getting hit, and expression can be just effective as convention. Jones' had the footwork to dictate the range, and the reflexes (as mentioned) to avoid anything once someone got close. If you watch him in his prime, if a fighter would get him on the ropes, he knew how to defend himself. Uppercuts were blocked by putting up his 'ear muffs' and turning his lead palm, as to intercept the incoming punch.
> 
> ...


Agreed, people forget when everyone was predicting Pazienza would extend RJJ down the distance and RJJ held him to no hits at all in the 4th round, first time in compubox history.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

JeffJoiner said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree. Jones knocked the living shit out of people in a way Mayweather never did. His hands were faster relative to his opponents, maybe even overall. And his feet were faster, too. That's pretty damn impressive.
> 
> Now, had the OP asked who has had the better overall career I'd be with you.


Yep. 
Had the op said who looked more impressive i would've picked Jones.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

not to mention that jones was juicing.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Well i don't agree with the statement that toney is better than anyone on Floyd's resume.


Erm, why not?

There's also Hopkins.

There's also Ruiz, who's size advantage trumps any Floyd has ever faced.



tliang1000 said:


> And to me i think it is much more impressive to see a small guy with just decent power able to school bigger guys over and over again without taking much punishment to a guy who is bless with speed and power but boxing IQ is just above average. Skills > Athletic ability for me.


It's an easy and pretty inaccurate answer to say that Roy Jones' IQ was average. It was anything but. Speed and power alone can't get you to the level Jones was at. Just because Jones had an unconventional guard, people give the lazy and stupid answer that he was all athleticism. Jones had tremendous ring generalship, solid fundamentals, great parrying, a great sense of anticipation, knew which counters worked best, threw combinations with design and purpose, and his control of distance alone was enough to defend him against virtually anyone in his prime. He didn't just blow guys out of the water, he controlled them completely. He feinted them, circled them, jabbed them, ambushed them, countered them; that's all an aspect of ring IQ. And against better fighters.



SJS20 said:


> One of the biggest mis-conceptions of the past fifty odd years.
> 
> Jones is one of the better defensive fighters of the era just gone. People think of defense as the opposite to flair. Defense is the art of not getting hit, and expression can be just effective as convention. Jones' had the footwork to dictate the range, and the reflexes (as mentioned) to avoid anything once someone got close. If you watch him in his prime, if a fighter would get him on the ropes, he knew how to defend himself. Uppercuts were blocked by putting up his 'ear muffs' and turning his lead palm, as to intercept the incoming punch.
> 
> ...


Great post.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yep.
> Had the op said who looked more impressive i would've picked Jones.


Jones beat the better fighters though too. So he looked more impressive, and has the better wins. Therefore he was more impressive.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Jones beat the better fighters though too. So he looked more impressive, and has the better wins. Therefore he was more impressive.


I don't rate ruiz much or green hopkins much. Toney is a great win but Roy owns that style as for quality fighters Floyd > Roy.

Hopkins at that time and him fought for a vacant title with hardly anyone on their resume. Hopkins' skills at the time can't even compare to an out of prime Oscar or Shane, let alone JMM or Cotto.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Erm, why not?
> 
> There's also Hopkins.
> 
> ...


What is more impressive? Someone with a lot of speed and power and natural ability dominating someone? or someone who is not the quickest and not the hardest hitting but dominates everyone?

The OP asked for who was more impressive... not who is more naturally gifted.


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I don't rate ruiz much or green hopkins much. Toney is a great win but Roy owns that style as for quality fighters Floyd > Roy.
> 
> Hopkins at that time and him fought for a vacant title when hardly anyone on their resume. Hopkins' skills at the time can't even compare to an out of prime Oscar or Shane, let alone JMM or Cotto.


Everybody who's somebody juices. Just because Floyd didn't get caught yet doesn't mean he doesn't juice.










Hopkins had more experience than Roy, so an even greener Roy beat a green Hopkins, who was the #1 MW at the time.

Ruiz was a great win for a former JMW, who gave up massive weight and height advantages, much better than a shot Shane who couldn't even throw a combo at that stage of his career.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

rjjfan said:


> Everybody who's somebody juices. Just because Floyd didn't get caught yet doesn't mean he doesn't juice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:blood:huh How does bhop got more experience than Roy? Roy had a ton of amateur experience... Does bhop even have an amateur experience?

Ruiz sucks, he was never impressive at least shane and oscar was impressive the fight before they fought Floyd. Thats closer to the truth.


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## Floyd_g.o.a.t (Jun 11, 2013)

rjjfan said:


> Both extremely talented fighters, rose through the weights and fought big name competition. Whose performances and rise to the top was more impressive to you?


Don't you get bored of making the same thread over and over? You did something similar on ESB too.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I don't rate ruiz much or green hopkins much.


Well you should rate Ruiz higher than Canelo, one of Floyd's top 5 wins, given his size difference and wins over Holyfield, Rahman.



tliang1000 said:


> Toney is a great win but Roy owns that style as for quality fighters Floyd > Roy.


If that's an excuse, are we going to take away every time Floyd fought a come-forward fighter? That's unfair. Toney was pound for pound #1 at the time. Floyd has never dethroned anyone with that status. And Toney himself was at least as skilled as Floyd himself and also very athletic.



tliang1000 said:


> Hopkins at that time and him fought for a vacant title when hardly anyone on their resume. Hopkins' skills at the time can't even compare to an out of prime Oscar or Shane, let alone JMM or Cotto.


What? Hopkins didn't lose for 10 years after that at Middleweight. Mosley went on to draw with Sergio Mora. And if you actually saw footage of him at the time, you'd see that Hopkins was already a seasoned boxer with a great jab, movement, inside skills and defensive ability. Hopkins is so great that even a green version of him is worth more than lots of fighters in their prime, let alone old ones.

What about Virgil Hill? Montell Griffin? Even an old McCallum is worth mentioning.

Sorry tliang. I know you want Floyd to be the best at everything ever.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> What is more impressive? Someone with a lot of speed and power and natural ability dominating someone? or someone who is not the quickest and not the hardest hitting but dominates everyone?
> 
> The OP asked for who was more impressive... not who is more naturally gifted.


You act as if Floyd is some average athlete. Floyd has a speed advantage on almost every fighter he has ever fought. His reflexes are insane and his fast-twitch muscles are probably the best in the sport today.

Roy wasn't a brawler who just blew people out of the water (which he could do if he wanted), he was a complete artist in the ring.

So if you ask me if a defensively skilled fighter with quick hands and a great ring IQ who often fights guys with a weight advantage is less impressive than another defensively skilled fighter with quick hands and a great IQ with knockout power and became the first man to win middleweight and heavyweight titles in a century, I'm going to say yeah.

Jones didn't lack the smarts, he just also had dynamite in his gloves. And fought the better fighters. So that's pretty much it.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Well you should rate Ruiz higher than Canelo, one of Floyd's top 5 wins, given his size difference and wins over Holyfield, Rahman.
> 
> If that's an excuse, are we going to take away every time Floyd fought a come-forward fighter? That's unfair. Toney was pound for pound #1 at the time. Floyd has never dethroned anyone with that status. And Toney himself was at least as skilled as Floyd himself and also very athletic.
> 
> ...


Why should i rate Ruiz over Canelo for wins over a old Holyfield with heart problems and Rahman??? Canelo already got better wins than Ruiz. Ruiz sucks and his best skill is the clinch.

Toney is not even as accomplished fighter as many of Floyd's opponent. Quit trying to hyped up everybody except Floyd. Shit is dumb and annoying. When can go down the list of accomplishments between toney and Floyd's opponent and i bet i can list more accomplishments. Toney is a fat piece of shit who was good at super middle weight and light heavy weight and the end... punch drunk and broke.

Bhop did get better but he admitted that he was green against Roy and nowhere near the fighter he became.

We name all of Roy's opponents and it may shock you but it won't be for me bc i already know that Floyd got the better resume. . Period.

Floyd is not the best at everything but he is way better than you give him credit for though.


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## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You act as if Floyd is some average athlete. Floyd has a speed advantage on almost every fighter he has ever fought. His reflexes are insane and his fast-twitch muscles are probably the best in the sport today.
> 
> Roy wasn't a brawler who just blew people out of the water (which he could do if he wanted), he was a complete artist in the ring.
> 
> ...


Floyd is a complete fighter and near flawless fighter. Jones is not. I'm sorry. i know it hurts you seeing people bring up this fact but it is the fact.


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## Divi253 (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> I don't know who impressed more than Roy


This.. Not a single fighter I've seen I'd think about saying was more impressive to watch.


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Well you should rate Ruiz higher than Canelo, one of Floyd's top 5 wins, given his size difference and wins over Holyfield, Rahman.
> 
> If that's an excuse, are we going to take away every time Floyd fought a come-forward fighter? That's unfair. Toney was pound for pound #1 at the time. Floyd has never dethroned anyone with that status. And Toney himself was at least as skilled as Floyd himself and also very athletic.
> 
> ...


golata was a good win as well as the undefeated kirk johnson

and the toney fight was close if you take into consideration that james stepped on johhnys foot to create the knockdown

if canelo retired today there is no one that would rank him higher than ruiz


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## knowimuch (May 9, 2014)

In terms of watching the man fight: Jones
In terms of p4p achievments: Even, with a slight edge to Jones 
Longevity and resume: Floyd


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Why should i rate Ruiz over Canelo for wins over a old Holyfield with heart problems and Rahman??? Canelo already got better wins than Ruiz. Ruiz sucks and his best skill is the clinch.
> 
> Toney is not even as accomplished fighter as many of Floyd's opponent. Quit trying to hyped up everybody except Floyd. Shit is dumb and annoying. When can go down the list of accomplishments between toney and Floyd's opponent and i bet i can list more accomplishments. Toney is a fat piece of shit who was good at super middle weight and light heavy weight and the end... punch drunk and broke.
> 
> ...


Trout is a better win than Holyfield? :rofl

Toney isn't more accomplished than Zab, Maidana, Canelo, Corrales, Castillo? :rofl He's at least on par with a PRIME Shane and Oscar, let alone the versions Floyd beat.

A green B-Hop> an old Mosley.

I never discredit Floyd unfairly, I just don't constantly say he's better than everyone ever and make ridiculous nut-hugging comments. You said Floyd fought better opposition than Muhammad Ali. That's ridiculous. You're ridiculous.



tliang1000 said:


> Floyd is a complete fighter and near flawless fighter. Jones is not. I'm sorry. i know it hurts you seeing people bring up this fact but it is the fact.


A prime Jones was nearly flawless and beat the better fighters and yet was more destructive. You have a shallow understanding of skill if you think Jones having his hands down half the time means he isn't highly skilled and intelligent.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

How could you possibly say Floyd fought better opponents than Toney or Hopkins? What a load of shit as usual from tilang. 

Plus Roy has a much deeper resume than that. Montell Griffin was a very good fighter. Woods, Kelly, Hall, Gonzalez, Harding, Tarver, Sosa, and Reggie Johnson, a slew of wins over talented fighters. 

Seriously which win that floyd has is better than bhop or toney? Matter of fact which one is better than Virgill hill?


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

[HR][/HR]


bballchump11 said:


> I don't know who impressed more than Roy


One gif to KO the entire Jones' career:


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## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Toney is not even as accomplished fighter as many of Floyd's opponent. Quit trying to hyped up everybody except Floyd. Shit is dumb and annoying. When can go down the list of accomplishments between toney and Floyd's opponent and i bet i can list more accomplishments. Toney is a fat piece of shit who was good at super middle weight and light heavy weight and the end... punch drunk and broke.
> .


This is truly ignorant.

First off Toney may have looked better at 168 but his best wins came at 160. Light heavyweight? Wrong again! Although I do feel he won one fight against Griffin, who also was better than a lot of Mayweather's opposition. Mayweather's rating comes from his dedication, skillset (albeit against average opposition since Oscar) and longevity.

Not only has Jones got FAR better wins than Mayweather but lets be honest so has Toney. Castillo, Corrales and ... Canelo? Dragged up Hatton or Marquez? Put them up against Nunn, McCallum, Johnson and Jirov. I don't think its remotely close.

But I am a huge fan of Toney.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hoshi said:


> This is truly ignorant.
> 
> First off Toney may have looked better at 168 but his best wins came at 160. Light heavyweight? Wrong again! Although I do feel he won one fight against Griffin, who also was better than a lot of Mayweather's opposition. Mayweather's rating comes from his dedication, skillset (albeit against average opposition since Oscar) and longevity.
> 
> ...


 @Bogotazo


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hoshi said:


> This is truly ignorant.
> 
> First off Toney may have looked better at 168 but his best wins came at 160. Light heavyweight? Wrong again! Although I do feel he won one fight against Griffin, who also was better than a lot of Mayweather's opposition. Mayweather's rating comes from his dedication, skillset (albeit against average opposition since Oscar) and longevity.
> 
> ...


James Toney does not have better wins than Floyd.

Besides Nunn and a worn McCallum none of the fighters are particularly impressive. The fact that you list Reggie Johnson and Jirov as being better than Mosley, Oscar, Marquez, Hatton, Canelo, Castillo, Corrales, Hernandez, ect is laughable.

Floyd's career is more consistent, dominate, and exceptional in almost every facet. Floyd at his best barely lost rounds, James Toney was relying out decisions against mid level contenders and losing to the likes of David Thazdi and Montel Griffin

But by all means in your deluded mind tell me what makes beating the likes of Reggie Johnson a scalp worthy of any accolades


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hoshi said:


> This is truly ignorant.
> 
> First off Toney may have looked better at 168 but his best wins came at 160. Light heavyweight? Wrong again! Although I do feel he won one fight against Griffin, who also was better than a lot of Mayweather's opposition. Mayweather's rating comes from his dedication, skillset (albeit against average opposition since Oscar) and longevity.
> 
> ...


Toney has even more wins than that, but im sure you're well aware of that. Reggie Johnson and griffin are better than most floyd wins.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

How many more times does this topic have to be raised? Roy is the GOAT
@rjjfan stop making shit threads


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Toney has even more wins than that, but im sure you're well aware of that. Reggie Johnson and griffin are better than most floyd wins.


Reggie Johnson's better than Marquez? Nope. Hatton? Nope. Cotto? Nope. Hernandez? Nope. Marquez? Nope. Oscar? Nope. Mosley? Nope. Canelo, by the end of Canelos career most likely no.

I'd rate Reggie Johnson whose lone signature when came in a middle decision over Steve Collins with the likes of Jesus Chavez and Carlos Baldomir. After all if rate Zab Judah over Steve Collins

That leaves Montel Griffin who Toney never beat, errr

Good job


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Reggie Johnson's better than Marquez? Nope. Hatton? Nope. Cotto? Nope. Hernandez? Nope. Marquez? Nope. Oscar? Nope. Mosley? Nope. Canelo, by the end of Canelos career most likely no.
> 
> I'd rate Reggie Johnson whose lone signature when came in a middle decision over Steve Collins with the likes of Jesus Chavez and Carlos Baldomir. After all if rate Zab Judah over Steve Collins
> 
> ...


You're clearly new to boxing, if you want to debate about other eras you should watch them.

Reggie J is a more skilled technician than all of them, quicker than most of them, better jab than all of them, better defence than the lot. Boxing in this era was on a whole other level skill wise and the Mayweather's would tell you as much if you asked them.


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

As it's been said before, Jones yesterday, Today and tomorrow.


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Toney has even more wins than that, but im sure you're well aware of that. Reggie Johnson and griffin are better than most floyd wins.


montell much better than corley who never beat an a list fighter. same for brussels. sharmba kod twice by kt...at 140. never even ranked at 147.

from 140 on up, with the exception of a dlh on the downside of his career and canelo, floyds resume is littered with asterisk.

every one of his fights you can question


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## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Reggie Johnson's better than Marquez? Nope. Hatton? Nope. Cotto? Nope. Hernandez? Nope. Marquez? Nope. Oscar? Nope. Mosley? Nope. Canelo, by the end of Canelos career most likely no.
> 
> I'd rate Reggie Johnson whose lone signature when came in a middle decision over Steve Collins with the likes of Jesus Chavez and Carlos Baldomir. After all if rate Zab Judah over Steve Collins
> 
> ...


On Montel Griffin though, Toney should have had the decision in the first match.
I think we're mostly in agreement that Jones is greater than Floyd. @Powerpuncher would you rate Floyd higher than Toney though?


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## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Reggie Johnson's better than Marquez? Nope. Hatton? Nope. Cotto? Nope. Hernandez? Nope. Marquez? Nope. Oscar? Nope. Mosley? Nope. Canelo, by the end of Canelos career most likely no.
> 
> I'd rate Reggie Johnson whose lone signature when came in a middle decision over Steve Collins with the likes of Jesus Chavez and Carlos Baldomir. After all if rate Zab Judah over Steve Collins
> 
> ...


Toney fought Johnson at his best weight of 160 when he was good. He even had success in the fight. In my opinion that fight is the only time I have seen James truly rocked, wierd as the guy went up to heavyweight and fought in the pocket :smile

Mayweather fought Marquez and Hatton at weights were they had little to no success before taking on Mayweather. Look at their 147 resumes before, hell even after.

Cotto, Mosley and Oscar? Floyd fought them again when they had seen better days. Forget titles these guys cherry picked at times to see success they were all better at 147 and had all seen better days. Mosley was completely shot and Oscar and Cotto were past their best clearly.

Genaro Hernandez was a good win but was he at his peak? I don't think so.

Don't post if you cannot be objective pal.


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## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> @Bogotazo


:smile You love it and agree. Your just scared of upsetting your WBF buddies who probably still live with their mums and have Floyd posters on their walls :smile:-(


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## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> On Montel Griffin though, Toney should have had the decision in the first match.
> I think we're mostly in agreement that Jones is greater than Floyd. @Powerpuncher would you rate Floyd higher than Toney though?


No, Toney clearly has the better wins and opposition but lacks Floyd's dominance. Toney is a genius really but let fights slip because of lack of conditioning.

Toney could have been better than Floyd with the same work ethic. He's much more of a natural than Floyd is


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hoshi said:


> :smile You love it and agree. Your just scared of upsetting your WBF buddies who probably still live with their mums and have Floyd posters on their walls :smile:-(


I spent several months on here talking about how they are arguably the best pair wins any fighter has had since 1990. Nunn was one of the greatest middleweight talents in the history of boxing, McCallum is arguably Top 10 most skilled fighters ever and took out numerous top middleweights in addition to being the GOAT 154lber. Toney was an underdog in both fights. Corrales and Castillo absolutely pale in comparison in almost every facet, that even goes for current Pacquiao. So no, I'm not scared of shit.

What Toney lacks is depth. I don't think he had any more than 10 world rated guys on his ledger. Also had a handful of blunders and lost to Tiberi.


----------



## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

Years from now, I'll look back on Floyd and think, "damn that guy was smart & talented!"

- but I'll look back on RJJ and think, "Holy fricking moly, that guy wasn't even human !"


If the operative phrase is "more IMPRESSIVE," then there's absolutely no comparison.


----------



## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> I spent several months on here talking about how they are arguably the best pair wins any fighter has had since 1990. Nunn was one of the greatest middleweight talents in the history of boxing, McCallum is arguably Top 10 most skilled fighters ever and took out numerous top middleweights in addition to being the GOAT 154lber. Toney was an underdog in both fights. Corrales and Castillo absolutely pale in comparison in almost every facet, that even goes for current Pacquiao. So no, I'm not scared of shit.
> 
> What Toney lacks is depth. I don't think he had any more than 10 world rated guys on his ledger. Also had a handful of blunders and lost to Tiberi.


Toney has great depth, he was a very active fighter too Toney's downfall came with his concentration, work ethic and desire. Not to mention when you fight as regularly as he did you have off nights. Today's mega stars fight once or twice a year, bit easier to be consistent. Imagine other athletes like Federer and Nadal, Messi and Zidane having two matches a year against average opposition :smile

I was only ribbing you pal I know you champion Toney when you can (still not enough mind :smile) but you do have an obligation to be friendly with some of the TMT boi's and I am more than willing to say what you can't :hey



Powerpuncher said:


> No, Toney clearly has the better wins and opposition but lacks Floyd's dominance. Toney is a genius really but let fights slip because of lack of conditioning.
> 
> Toney could have been better than Floyd with the same work ethic. He's much more of a natural than Floyd is


Solid post:deal


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

McCallum won the second fight with Toney. The "draw" was a 115-113 Toney win IMO.


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> No, Toney clearly has the better wins and opposition but lacks Floyd's dominance. Toney is a genius really but let fights slip because of lack of conditioning.
> 
> Toney could have been better than Floyd with the same work ethic. He's much more of a natural than Floyd is


I agree on the wins especially with Nunn and McCallum in the first match where he deserved the nod and of course you could stretch it to Barkley as he was holding both a IBF 168 belt and the WBA 175 champ. I suppose I just put more stock in a boxer's ability to climb weight classes and still be dominant where as I guess Toney's success after 168 was mixed having great performances like Jirov for example but looking horrible against the likes of Thadzi and even Tiberi in his best weight class.

Don't disagree on Toney being the more natural.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> I agree on the wins especially with Nunn and McCallum in the first match where he deserved the nod and of course you could stretch it to Barkley as he was holding both a IBF 168 belt and the WBA 175 champ. I suppose I just put more stock in a boxer's ability to climb weight classes and still be dominant where as I guess Toney's success after 168 was mixed having great performances like Jirov for example but looking horrible against the likes of Thadzi and even Tiberi in his best weight class.
> 
> Don't disagree on Toney being the more natural.


Yea Toney wasn't dominant above 168 due to his lack of dedication. 175 should of been his weight class or maybe he should of made 160 throughout his career if he was dedicated.

Still I'm not sure Floyd definitely beats the equivilents of a Nunn or a McCallum at 130, he'd have a very hard time. Barkley I wouldn't be putting in the elite class, a good solid physical beast of a brawler though


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> McCallum won the second fight with Toney. The "draw" was a 115-113 Toney win IMO.


Mccallum possibly won the first one also. I felt like it was extremely hard to score, but ive seen a lot of people argue that mccallum won the first fight against toney.


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Yea Toney wasn't dominant above 168 due to his lack of dedication. 175 should of been his weight class or maybe he should of made 160 throughout his career if he was dedicated.
> 
> Still I'm not sure Floyd definitely beats the equivilents of a Nunn or a McCallum at 130, he'd have a very hard time. Barkley I wouldn't be putting in the elite class, a good solid physical beast of a brawler though


I agree, it's a shame that his Light heavy weight days were wasted with him struggling with weight for the majority of it. I remember watching his tune
up fight against Mateen when he was still relatively new to the weight class after his difficulties with making 168 and he was still struggling to make the limit
at the weigh in that even attracted mockery from the usual ass hats of Lampley and Merchant regarding his weight during the broadcast.

Who would you put as an equivalent to Nunn and McCallum though at the time?

As for Barkely of course he was never a "great" fighter but IMO it was his best performance (in Toney's favor, a stylistic advantage) against a still solid fighter with the IBF strap. Maybe it could be argued that the Sosa win was almost on par with the Barkley one, that is an underrated performance if there ever was one.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Mccallum possibly won the first one also. I felt like it was extremely hard to score, but ive seen a lot of people argue that mccallum won the first fight against toney.


McCallum is a fucking Boss.


----------



## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> I think Jones in his prime was so much more athletic than his opponents was one of his biggest advantages while Floyd's weight classes you got guys who are harder hitting and faster than floyd but skill pays the bills.
> 
> You compare the two's defense while Jones put on his ear muffs when he gets cornered and hope that he doesn't get nailed to the chin to Floyd's multi-layered defense. Jones got faster hands and punch p4p no doubt but it really again just tell you how skilled Floyd is. To outfight everyone while not having a big punch.


Jones was more athletic and flashy prime for prime but mayweather is more skilled and doesnt have the flaws RJJ had. RJJ was always weak on the ropes, its just nobody could fully capitalize on it in his prime. Hopkins tried and had some success but RJJ was just to fast.

Mayweather's longevity is worth something to me. Hes 38 and still on top. He has been in the top 10 p4p since 1998. RJJ was getting KTFO at 35.



Bogotazo said:


> Jones. He beat the better fighters with superior offensive potency and equal defensive prowess.
> 
> A gross over simplification of Roy's defense, his shelling up against Tarver wasn't his default defensive style. Cue the know-nothings going about how Jones had nothing but freak athleticism reflexes @*SJS20*


Roy was always vulnerable against the ropes. Its how he dropped 4 rounds to Hopkins. Go watch that fight again and the rounds he dropped and when Hopkins was scoring.

Also RJJ has two great wins and then his resume drops off shortly. Mayweather may not have any single win as good as Toney and Hopkins but overall I think his resume is better. Mayweather is 38 and you have guys at the top of the division, 10-15 years younger and 10-15 pounds heavier, struggling to win rounds against him where as Roy was long past it by that point, struggling with other past it fighters.


----------



## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

Hoshi said:


> Toney fought Johnson at his best weight of 160 when he was good. He even had success in the fight. In my opinion that fight is the only time I have seen James truly rocked, wierd as the guy went up to heavyweight and fought in the pocket :smile
> 
> Mayweather fought Marquez and Hatton at weights were they had little to no success before taking on Mayweather. Look at their 147 resumes before, hell even after.
> 
> ...


147 benefited Hatton more than floyd. Tired of that excuse made for Hatton. HE was the one who said he struggled to make 140. It allowed him to not have to drain. Mayweather was going to be lighter than Hatton on fight night either way and was not the one with weight problems. You guys act like Floyd was going to be 165 or some shit on fight night.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

elterrible said:


> Jones was more athletic and flashy prime for prime but mayweather is more skilled and doesnt have the flaws RJJ had. RJJ was always weak on the ropes, its just nobody could fully capitalize on it in his prime. Hopkins tried and had some success but RJJ was just to fast.
> 
> Mayweather's longevity is worth something to me. Hes 38 and still on top. He has been in the top 10 p4p since 1998. RJJ was getting KTFO at 35.
> 
> ...


People are blinded by Roy's athleticism and ignore his skill. He was very skilled. The combination of skill and raw talent, against the better fighters, was simply more impressive to me.

Depth and longevity are certainly factors in Floyd's favor, but on their own they aren't worth anything to me. They have to be contingent on great wins. And Floyd has a lot of very good ones, which is why he's an ATG. But I put a lot of weight on someone who climbed a higher mountain once VS 5 big hills.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Trout is a better win than Holyfield? :rofl
> 
> Toney isn't more accomplished than Zab, Maidana, Canelo, Corrales, Castillo? :rofl He's at least on par with a PRIME Shane and Oscar, let alone the versions Floyd beat.
> 
> ...


Go ahead and talk it up all you want tonight. I already know that i'm going to be right. Floyd have a lot of people on his resume that is more successful than Toney. Toney Jones' best win. *Mark my words*. Nobody will place Toney shit in the ranking. Floyd's opponents will be ahead of him. 
Toney is a washed up nobody right now. Who is JMM? Who is Cotto? Who is Paciquao? All 3x more successful and better boxers than James toney and better resume and Careers. This is such a joke. Do i really need to go there?

This shit is so obvious who is better. The sky is red idiot bunch.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

This is why i am killing the sportsboosk, bc you got crazy illogical fans and this thread just shows. People lack common sense here.


----------



## Sweethome_Bama (Jul 29, 2012)

Roy and it isn't even close.
Floyd breaks down and outthinks and out executes.
Roy outclassed and truly didn't have real competition when he was in his prime.
He was a class all his own with no one comperable IMHO.


----------



## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> People are blinded by Roy's athleticism and ignore his skill. He was very skilled. The combination of skill and raw talent, against the better fighters, was simply more impressive to me.
> 
> Depth and longevity are certainly factors in Floyd's favor, but on their own they aren't worth anything to me. They have to be contingent on great wins. And Floyd has a lot of very good ones, which is why he's an ATG. But I put a lot of weight on someone who climbed a higher mountain once VS 5 big hills.


Yeah I think its pretty close, I think hes skilled, I just value longevity and more consistent good wins over 2 ATG wins.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Go ahead and talk it up all you want tonight. I already know that i'm going to be right. Floyd have a lot of people on his resume that is more successful than Toney. Toney Jones' best win. *Mark my words*. Nobody will place Toney shit in the ranking. Floyd's opponents will be ahead of him.
> Toney is a washed up nobody right now. Who is JMM? Who is Cotto? Who is Paciquao? All 3x more successful and better boxers than James toney and better resume and Careers. This is such a joke. Do i really need to go there?
> 
> This shit is so obvious who is better. The sky is red idiot bunch.


You're not actually making any arguments. You're just going "watch watch, I'm right".

I'll say it again: if a bunch of people become ignorant in a decade and agree with you, it doesn't make them correct.

Cotto's resume better than Toney's? Lol. Sure, bring up the irrelevant fact that he's old for some strange reason, why not. Anything goes, as long as Floyd's name is held high.

Also, as proven to you, the sky is indeed often red. Haven't you learned by now?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

elterrible said:


> Yeah I think its pretty close, I think hes skilled, I just value longevity and more consistent good wins over 2 ATG wins.


That's fair, everyone has their own criteria when it comes to these things. I'm a junkie for the big wins. Hands knows.


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

elterrible said:


> Jones was more athletic and flashy prime for prime but mayweather is more skilled and doesnt have the flaws RJJ had. RJJ was always weak on the ropes, its just nobody could fully capitalize on it in his prime. Hopkins tried and had some success but RJJ was just to fast.
> 
> Mayweather's longevity is worth something to me. Hes 38 and still on top. He has been in the top 10 p4p since 1998. RJJ was getting KTFO at 35.
> 
> ...


I'd disagree on Roy's resume dropping off. He still a deep resume having cleaned out 175 after moving up. Virgil Hill, Tarver, Johnson, Harding, Ruiz



Sweethome_Bama said:


> Roy and it isn't even close.
> Floyd breaks down and outthinks and out executes.
> Roy outclassed and truly didn't have real competition when he was in his prime.
> He was a class all his own with no one comperable IMHO.


First former MW in how long to win a HW title even if it was Ruiz it was still a hell of an achievement IMO.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You're not actually making any arguments. You're just going "watch watch, I'm right".
> 
> I'll say it again: if a bunch of people become ignorant in a decade and agree with you, it doesn't make them correct.
> 
> ...


You got issues bogo. Not only are you delusional but you also love to play dumb. 
Common sense, i'm giving you a chance. Look at the obvious. Roy is not a better fighter than Floyd, he doesn't have a better career, he doesn't have better resume, he is not more successful, he won't be ranked ahead of Floyd and Toney will be place behind floyd's opponents.


----------



## coldfire (Mar 5, 2015)

Roy in prime is SUPERMAN!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> That's fair, everyone has their own criteria when it comes to these things. I'm a junkie for the big wins. Hands knows.


Taylor/Rosario >>>

:yep


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@bogo,

I can and will break it down point by point in detail but i rather not too bc this should be obvious.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Hoshi said:


> :smile You love it and agree. Your just scared of upsetting your WBF buddies who probably still live with their mums and have Floyd posters on their walls :smile:-(


Yes, I'm cool with the TMT crowd but I'm also a Joyboy as well. He's the only favorite fighter of mine all-time whose career I've got to see play out virtually start-to-finish. He is there amongst Tyson, Duran, Whitaker, JC Chavez, Toney and McCallum. That's who is there. He's in their class.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

this thread makes me want to not be a boxing fan


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Chacal said:


> this thread makes me want to not be a boxing fan


Why? :lol:

Are you calling Powerpuncher and I liars? :-(


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

This shit is so damn easy. It is like a pistol fighting an assault rifle. Jones got a handful of good wins vs Floyd's constant good wins. Hm...? i wonder who is more impressive... hmmm... should i go on?


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Why? :lol:
> 
> Are you calling Powerpuncher and I liars? :-(


See the post that followed yours and you'll see what it is that's getting me down. The fact there are people like tliang out there just depresses me. He is, undoubtedly, the worst poster on this site.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You got issues bogo. Not only are you delusional but you also love to play dumb.
> Common sense, i'm giving you a chance. Look at the obvious. Roy is not a better fighter than Floyd, he doesn't have a better career, he doesn't have better resume, he is not more successful, he won't be ranked ahead of Floyd and Toney will be place behind floyd's opponents.


It's not common sense because the common understanding is the opposite of yours fool.

Saying some shit will happen in the future doesn't prove your argument. You're just randomly speculating. You're extremely bad at this. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. Don't they start persuasive essays in like the 5th grade? The hell happened to you, I wonder (not really).


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> This shit is so damn easy. It is like a pistol fighting an assault rifle. Jones got a handful of good wins vs Floyd's constant good wins. Hm...? i wonder who is more impressive... hmmm... should i go on?


How the fuck is it easy when you haven't convinced anybody? It's really sad when you rely on the crutch of false bravado to make it seem like you're winning and salvage some dignity. I've seen it before, it's what you always resort to.


----------



## Leftsmash (Oct 22, 2012)

Tilang we're both TMT here but just stop.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@bogo,

I am at home so i'm not going to spend my whole night breaking shit down on my personal time but i will go into details at work tomorrow. I already given you a hint where i am going with this. And you will see how easy this shit is. You will be making excuses left and right.


----------



## Smirk (Dec 14, 2013)

As a youth I was more entertained by Roy. His fights were an immaculate display. Floyd's longevity speaks volumes but prime for prime I was more impressed by RJJ.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

When i start tomorrow it is going to be Floyd vs RJJ, Floyd's opponents vs Jones' opponents, Floyd's career vs Jones' career. Facts Not opinions. Point by point, you are not going to weasel out on this one. This is too damn easy. Jones is outgunned but you insisted to go there. Bogo and whoever lacks common sense can all vs me.

Bogo's single best win over all else already shot himself in the foot and he is already going to be in contradiction.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

I rank Floyd higher as an ATG, but he wasn't as impressive to the eye. And Toney and Hopkins are the two best wins on either mans resume, and tliang is a spastic for not realising that.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I rank Floyd higher as an ATG, but he wasn't as impressive to the eye. And Toney and Hopkins are the two best wins on either mans resume, and tliang is a spastic for not realising that.


Fuck it lets start right now then. Bogo you can try to bill your friend out whenever.
Toney and LOL green hopkins are jones best wins. Lets start with Hopkins.
A green hopkins that fought for a vacant title with jones who had NOBODY on his resume doesn't even surpass Floyd's win over the division champ Generado Hernadez. I sat the bar extremely low just to prove a point.

Floyd beat the division champ. Jones did not. he fought for vacant. 2) Hernadz was a season veteran while Hopkins was just an up and comer. Hernadez comp going into floyd's fight.


1998-10-03Floyd Mayweather Jr*17*-*0*-*0*

Las Vegas Hilton, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALRTD812
 time: 3:00 | referee: Jay Nady | judge: Bob Logist 72-80 | judge: Chuck Giampa 73-79 | judge: Terry Smith 73-79 
WBC World super featherweight title
 
1998-05-16Carlos Gerena*28*-*1*-*0*

Fantasy Springs Casino, Indio, California, USAWUD1212
referee: James Jen-Kin | judge: Masakazu Uchida 116-113 | judge: Ismael Quinones Falu 117-113 | judge: Henry Elesperu 117-111 
WBC World super featherweight title
 
1997-11-20Carlos Hernandez*25*-*1*-*1*

Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, USAWUD1212
referee: Dave Nelson | judge: Chuck Hassett 120-107 | judge: Marty Denkin 119-108 | judge: James Jen-Kin 119-108 
WBC World super featherweight title
 
1997-06-14Anatoly Alexandrov*30*-*3*-*0*

Alamodome, San Antonio, Texas, USAWSD1212
referee: Jerry McKenzie | judge: Jose Juan Guerra 116-113 | judge: Angel Luis Guzman 113-115 | judge: Walter Schramm 116-113 
WBC World super featherweight title
 
1997-03-22Azumah Nelson*39*-*3*-*2*

Memorial Coliseum, Corpus Christi, Texas, USAWSD1212
referee: Laurence Cole | judge: Alfred Asaro 115-113 | judge: Richard James Davies 118-110 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 113-114 
WBC World super featherweight title
 
1996-09-28Antonio Hernandez*43*-*20*-*0*

Will Rogers Coliseum, Fort Worth, Texas, USAWUD1010
judge: Gale E. Van Hoy | judge: David Harris 
 
1996-05-08Javier Pichardo*40*-*17*-*1*

Fantasy Springs Casino, Indio, California, USAWTKO510
time: 2:10 | referee: Lou Filippo 
 
1995-09-09Oscar De La Hoya*18*-*0*-*0*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALRTD612
time: 3:00 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Jerry Roth 55-59 | judge: Mike Glienna 55-59 | judge: Chuck Giampa 56-58 
WBO World lightweight title
 
1995-03-31Jorge Paez*53*-*7*-*4*

Arrowhead Pond, Anaheim, California, USAWTKO810
Paez was stopped on cuts.
 
1994-11-12Jimmy Garcia*35*-*3*-*0*

Plaza Mexico, Mexico City, Distrito Federal, MexicoWUD1212
referee: Roberto Ramirez Sr. | judge: Julio Roldan 120-107 | judge: Medardo Villalobos 117-109 | judge: Humberto Figueroa 119-109 
WBA World super featherweight title
Hernandez vacates title April 1995, to fight Oscar De La Hoya
 
1994-01-31Jorge Ramirez*65*-*8*-*3*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWTKO812
time: 2:35 | referee: Larry Rozadilla | judge: Lou Moret 70-63 | judge: Francisco Burac 70-64 | judge: Angel C. Tovar 70-64 
WBA World super featherweight title
 
1993-10-11Harold Warren*25*-*5*-*0*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWUD1212
referee: Larry Rozadilla | judge: Fritz Werner 119-109 | judge: Jose Campos 118-115 | judge: Lou Moret 118-110 
WBA World super featherweight title
 
1993-06-28Raul Perez*50*-*3*-*3*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWKO812
time: 2:11 | referee: Lou Moret | judge: Larry Rozadilla 69-64 | judge: Guillermo Perez Pineda 70-63 | judge: Oscar Perez Carbonell 69-64 
WBA World super featherweight title
 
1993-04-26Raul Perez*50*-*3*-*2*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USADTD112
time: 0:28 | referee: Lou Moret | judge: Jesus Celis | judge: Orlando Sam | judge: Fritz Werner

vs 


 
1993-05-22Roy Jones Jr*21*-*0*-*0*

RFK Stadium, Washington, District of Columbia, USALUD1212
 referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Al DeVito 112-116 | judge: Eugene Grant 112-116 | judge: Lynne Carter 112-116 
vacant IBF World middleweight title
 
1993-02-16Gilbert Baptist*26*-*14*-*0*

McNichols Sports Arena, Denver, Colorado, USAWUD1212
referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-110 | judge: Al DeVito 117-110 | judge: Jean Williams 115-112 
USBA middleweight title
 
1992-12-04Wayne Powell*30*-*3*-*2*

Merv Griffin's Resorts, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWTKO112
time: 0:21 | referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Eugene Grant | judge: Frank Brunette | judge: Lynne Carter 
vacant USBA middleweight title
 
1992-09-14Eric Rhinehart*12*-*14*-*1*

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWKO110
time: 1:47 | referee: John Carroll 
 
1992-08-28James Stokes*13*-*4*-*0*

Trump Plaza Hotel, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWKO110
time: 1:44 | referee: Lindsey Page 
 
1992-05-21Anibal Miranda*8*-*8*-*1*

Paris, Paris, FranceWPTS1010

1992-04-03Randy Smith*24*-*23*-*1*

Trump Plaza Hotel, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010
referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Jean Williams 100-90 | judge: Vincent Rainone 100-90 | judge: John Stewart 100-90 
 
1992-01-31Dennis Milton*16*-*3*-*1*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO410
time: 3:00 | referee: Hurley McCall | judge: Mercedes Medina | judge: Tommy Reid | judge: Bill Nealon 
 
1991-12-13Willie Kemp*13*-*7*-*0*

Convention Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010

1991-11-26David McCluskey*10*-*22*-*2*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO710
Some sources give this as TKO5. _The Philadelphia Inquirer_ gives it as TKO7.
 
1991-09-23Ralph Moncrief*25*-*15*-*0*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO110
time: 1:28 
Moncrief down three times.
 
1991-07-09Danny Mitchell*7*-*16*-*1*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWKO1 


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hoshi said:


> Toney fought Johnson at his best weight of 160 when he was good. He even had success in the fight. In my opinion that fight is the only time I have seen James truly rocked, wierd as the guy went up to heavyweight and fought in the pocket :smile


So Toney got rocked by a B level fighter in Reggie Johnson, so what

Is Toney getting rocked supposed to elevate Reggie Johnson on someway?



> Mayweather fought Marquez and Hatton at weights were they had little to no success before taking on Mayweather. Look at their 147 resumes before, hell even after.


Hatton was bigger than Floyd and Marquez ko of Pacquiao is greater than any victory in Johnson's career

Your boxing knowledge is pitiful



> Mosley was completely shot and Oscar and Cotto were past their best clearly.


Mosley was coming off his career best win, Floyd jumped up a full weight class to face a 165lb Oscar de la Hoya coming off giving Mayorga the worst throttling of his career, and Cotto is middleweight champion of the world

Whatever state they were in given your obviously biased and small minded logic they were all better than Reggie Johnson



> Genaro Hernandez was a good win but was he at his peak? I don't think so.


Based on what? He had never lost at 130lbs.



> Don't post if you cannot be objective pal.


Your boxing knowledge is pathetic, James Toney at best is a 60-70 tag, Floyd is 30-40 and creeping up further and further


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Too easy!

Bogo look at the facts. before i even have to boxrec and i already know what i WILL SEE.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

what a fucking joke. bogo and friends is in for a thrashing. So obvious.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> You're clearly new to boxing, if you want to debate about other eras you should watch them.
> 
> Reggie J is a more skilled technician than all of them, quicker than most of them, better jab than all of them, better defence than the lot. Boxing in this era was on a whole other level skill wise and the Mayweather's would tell you as much if you asked them.


Horrible post. I'm from Michigan and nobody believes Toney is anywhere near Floyd.

Reggie fucking Johnson better jab than Oscar and Cotto lmao


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Reggie fucking Johnson


:rofl

This thread is going to be classic.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> On Montel Griffin though, Toney should have had the decision in the first match.n
> I think we're mostly in agreement that Jones is greater than Floyd. @Powerpuncher would you rate Floyd higher than Toney though?


Meh. The fact Toney couldn't decisively beat Montel Griffen says it all.

Toney is massively overrated on this forum. No where near the accolades from the old heads on ESB. Seems 1-2 posters are driving the Toney myth.

Cement feet, could be easily out worked.

Floyd could go on a cocaine and alcohol binge and get his left arm cut off and wouldn't lose to the likes of Thazdi and Tiberi.

Toney's the new Duran without the career


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Boxrec :rofl


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Boxrec :rofl


bitch u got owned and u know it. it will only get worse for u. Talking all big and making bold statements is u. The whole room can try to help bill u out.

Roy had A SUCH A GREAT WIN lifting that vacant title against a green bhop who hasn't fought ANYBODY worth a shit. What you got for me Bozo?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

elterrible said:


> 147 benefited Hatton more than floyd. Tired of that excuse made for Hatton. HE was the one who said he struggled to make 140. It allowed him to not have to drain. Mayweather was going to be lighter than Hatton on fight night either way and was not the one with weight problems. You guys act like Floyd was going to be 165 or some shit on fight night.


This is an acid test to who doesn't know shit about boxing or who started following boxing a couple years ago

Hatton was at a weight disadvantage against Floyd lol

CHB is the best comedy forum on the net.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> [HR][/HR]
> 
> One gif to KO the entire Jones' career:


well as I typed that out, Tyson popped into my head :smile


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> bitch u got owned and u know it. it will only get worse for u. Talking all big and making bold statements is u. The whole room can try to help bill u out.
> 
> Roy had A SUCH A GREAT WIN lifting that vacant title against a green bhop who hasn't fought ANYBODY worth a shit. What you got for me Bozo?


The fuck? You saying I got owned doesn't make it true. You rely on boxrec like a weak ass casual and then beat your chest as if your nuthugging opinion means anything to anybody.

B-Hop showed tremendous skill on film at the time and didn't go on to lose for ten years at the weight. Jones beat him with a broken hand while he himself was still developing. It's a great win. You're reaching out of desperation again. I can feel it. Your meltdown happens when you scream the loudest, getting less coherent and more personal & unrelated in your attacks.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Fuck it lets start right now then. Bogo you can try to bill your friend out whenever.
> Toney and LOL green hopkins are jones best wins. Lets start with Hopkins.
> A green hopkins that fought for a vacant title with jones who had NOBODY on his resume doesn't even surpass Floyd's win over the division champ Generado Hernadez. I sat the bar extremely low just to prove a point.
> 
> ...


:lol:

I'm not even going to bother going into the fact that Hernandez was well past his best.

Instead I'll just expose the hypocrisy of this argument.

Let's say Canelo goes on to have an ATG career, you are going to proclaim that as one of Mayweathers best wins because of what Canelo goes on to do. Do you see where I'm going with this point? If you will credit Mayweather's win against Canelo because of what canelo goes on to do, then you must credit Jones with his win over Hopkins because what hopkins goes on to do, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

But let's step back from that anyway. In Hopkins' fight before Jones he faced Gilbert Baptist. A former (and future) world title challenger. Hardly a scrub.

But my real point is that you can't ignore everything Hopkins went on to do, because that version of hopkins was still an excellent fighter. I mean it was little over a year later that Hopkins was challenging for world titles and we all know the rest of it. It is an incredible win and to say it isn't is just lazy analysis.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> bitch u got owned and u know it. it will only get worse for u. Talking all big and making bold statements is u. The whole room can try to help bill u out.
> 
> Roy had A SUCH A GREAT WIN lifting that vacant title against a green bhop who hasn't fought ANYBODY worth a shit. What you got for me Bozo?


I'm not going to argue with you further because you're a fucking idiot. Enjoy using boxrec analysis and acting like you know what you're talking about.

Get cancer.


----------



## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> This is an acid test to who doesn't know shit about boxing or who started following boxing a couple years ago
> 
> Hatton was at a weight disadvantage against Floyd lol
> 
> CHB is the best comedy forum on the net.


yeah bringing up weight in the Hatton fight and trying to dismiss Floyd's win over Oscar are the two things that get on my nerves.

Oscar had every advantage you could think of going into the Mayweather fight except for age. Floyd goes into fights nowadays with bigger disadvantages than that at an older age.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> The fuck? You saying I got owned doesn't make it true. You rely on boxrec like a weak ass casual and then beat your chest as if your nuthugging opinion means anything to anybody.
> 
> B-Hop showed tremendous skill on film at the time and didn't go on to lose for ten years at the weight. Jones beat him with a broken hand while he himself was still developing. It's a great win. You're reaching out of desperation again. I can feel it. Your meltdown happens when you scream the loudest, getting less coherent and more personal & unrelated in your attacks.


Stop being delusional and just face the facts.

You did get owned. How did you not get owned? boxrec like a weak casual is your opening defense says it all. Remember i said facts not opinions?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I'm not going to argue with you further because you're a fucking idiot. Enjoy using boxrec analysis and acting like you know what you're talking about.
> 
> Get cancer.


bow out quick. smart move. Easy checkmate and all i had to do was bust out Henderaz. TOO EASY!


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Reggie Johnson is an ATG with a better jab than Oscar and better technically than Genaro Hernadez and Marquez


In 15 years I'm gonna tell everyone Maidana had the power of Trinidad and the relentlessness of Harry Greb


Fuck off


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

what is wrong with this picture bozo?

_
1998-10-03Floyd Mayweather Jr*17*-*0*-*0*

Las Vegas Hilton, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALRTD812
 time: 3:00 | referee: Jay Nady | judge: Bob Logist 72-80 | judge: Chuck Giampa 73-79 | judge: Terry Smith 73-79 
WBC World super featherweight title 1998-05-16Carlos Gerena*28*-*1*-*0*

Fantasy Springs Casino, Indio, California, USAWUD1212
referee: James Jen-Kin | judge: Masakazu Uchida 116-113 | judge: Ismael Quinones Falu 117-113 | judge: Henry Elesperu 117-111 
WBC World super featherweight title 1997-11-20Carlos Hernandez*25*-*1*-*1*

Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, USAWUD1212
referee: Dave Nelson | judge: Chuck Hassett 120-107 | judge: Marty Denkin 119-108 | judge: James Jen-Kin 119-108 
WBC World super featherweight title 1997-06-14Anatoly Alexandrov*30*-*3*-*0*

Alamodome, San Antonio, Texas, USAWSD1212
referee: Jerry McKenzie | judge: Jose Juan Guerra 116-113 | judge: Angel Luis Guzman 113-115 | judge: Walter Schramm 116-113 
WBC World super featherweight title 1997-03-22Azumah Nelson*39*-*3*-*2*

Memorial Coliseum, Corpus Christi, Texas, USAWSD1212
referee: Laurence Cole | judge: Alfred Asaro 115-113 | judge: Richard James Davies 118-110 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 113-114 
WBC World super featherweight title 1996-09-28Antonio Hernandez*43*-*20*-*0*

Will Rogers Coliseum, Fort Worth, Texas, USAWUD1010
judge: Gale E. Van Hoy | judge: David Harris 1996-05-08Javier Pichardo*40*-*17*-*1*

Fantasy Springs Casino, Indio, California, USAWTKO510
time: 2:10 | referee: Lou Filippo 1995-09-09Oscar De La Hoya*18*-*0*-*0*

Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALRTD612
time: 3:00 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Jerry Roth 55-59 | judge: Mike Glienna 55-59 | judge: Chuck Giampa 56-58 
WBO World lightweight title 1995-03-31Jorge Paez*53*-*7*-*4*

Arrowhead Pond, Anaheim, California, USAWTKO810
Paez was stopped on cuts. 1994-11-12Jimmy Garcia*35*-*3*-*0*

Plaza Mexico, Mexico City, Distrito Federal, MexicoWUD1212
referee: Roberto Ramirez Sr. | judge: Julio Roldan 120-107 | judge: Medardo Villalobos 117-109 | judge: Humberto Figueroa 119-109 
WBA World super featherweight title
Hernandez vacates title April 1995, to fight Oscar De La Hoya 1994-01-31Jorge Ramirez*65*-*8*-*3*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWTKO812
time: 2:35 | referee: Larry Rozadilla | judge: Lou Moret 70-63 | judge: Francisco Burac 70-64 | judge: Angel C. Tovar 70-64 
WBA World super featherweight title 1993-10-11Harold Warren*25*-*5*-*0*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWUD1212
referee: Larry Rozadilla | judge: Fritz Werner 119-109 | judge: Jose Campos 118-115 | judge: Lou Moret 118-110 
WBA World super featherweight title 1993-06-28Raul Perez*50*-*3*-*3*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWKO812
time: 2:11 | referee: Lou Moret | judge: Larry Rozadilla 69-64 | judge: Guillermo Perez Pineda 70-63 | judge: Oscar Perez Carbonell69-64 
WBA World super featherweight title 1993-04-26Raul Perez*50*-*3*-*2*

Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USADTD112
time: 0:28 | referee: Lou Moret | judge: Jesus Celis | judge: Orlando Sam | judge: Fritz Werner

vs 


 
1993-05-22Roy Jones Jr*21*-*0*-*0*

RFK Stadium, Washington, District of Columbia, USALUD1212
 referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Al DeVito 112-116 | judge: Eugene Grant 112-116 | judge: Lynne Carter 112-116 
vacant IBF World middleweight title 1993-02-16Gilbert Baptist*26*-*14*-*0*

McNichols Sports Arena, Denver, Colorado, USAWUD1212
referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-110 | judge: Al DeVito 117-110 | judge: Jean Williams 115-112 
USBA middleweight title 1992-12-04Wayne Powell*30*-*3*-*2*

Merv Griffin's Resorts, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWTKO112
time: 0:21 | referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Eugene Grant | judge: Frank Brunette | judge: Lynne Carter 
vacant USBA middleweight title 1992-09-14Eric Rhinehart*12*-*14*-*1*

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWKO110
time: 1:47 | referee: John Carroll 1992-08-28James Stokes*13*-*4*-*0*

Trump Plaza Hotel, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWKO110
time: 1:44 | referee: Lindsey Page 1992-05-21Anibal Miranda*8*-*8*-*1*

Paris, Paris, FranceWPTS1010
1992-04-03Randy Smith*24*-*23*-*1*

Trump Plaza Hotel, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010
referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Jean Williams 100-90 | judge: Vincent Rainone 100-90 | judge: John Stewart 100-90 1992-01-31Dennis Milton*16*-*3*-*1*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO410
time: 3:00 | referee: Hurley McCall | judge: Mercedes Medina | judge: Tommy Reid | judge: Bill Nealon 1991-12-13Willie Kemp*13*-*7*-*0*

Convention Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010
1991-11-26David McCluskey*10*-*22*-*2*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO710
Some sources give this as TKO5. The Philadelphia Inquirer gives it as TKO7. 1991-09-23Ralph Moncrief*25*-*15*-*0*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO110
time: 1:28 
Moncrief down three times. 1991-07-09Danny Mitchell*7*-*16*-*1*

Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWKO1C 

_


can you tell me who fought the better opp going into their fights????? SIMPLE QUESTION.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> bow out quick. smart move. Easy checkmate and all i had to do was bust out Henderaz. TOO EASY!


I just refuted that entire point you fucking degenerate spastic. I just don't argue with people who are lesser than me. You aren't worth a split second of my time.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I just refuted that entire point you fucking degenerate spastic. I just don't argue with people who are lesser than me. You aren't worth a split second of my time.


Look at Henderaz's past 10 vs Hopkins past 10 going into their fight? Answer what do you see????? Who fought the better opposition? What is better, lifting a title or fought a vacant? ANSWER.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bhop's last 10 opponents add it together could barely get past 100 wins combine LOL. While it take 2 or 3 opponents of Henderaz's and broke 100 wins. LOL face the facts. Jones' SECOND best win LMAO ROFL:rofl


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Look at Henderaz's past 10 vs Hopkins past 10 going into their fight? Answer what do you see????? Who fought the better opposition? What is better, lifting a title or fought a vacant? ANSWER.





tliang1000 said:


> Bhop's last 10 opponents add it together could barely get past 100 wins combine LOL. While it take 2 or 3 opponents of Henderaz's and broke 100 wins. LOL face the facts. Jones' SECOND best win LMAO ROFL:rofl


You are the biggest spastic on this forum and everyone who reads this will be thinking the same thing. You type like a fucking 3 year old.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Henerdez easy surpass 400+ wins combine mark in 10 opponents while bhop's can barely break 100. not even talking about the losses. OH SUCH great win for Jones.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

SO fucking bad. You should be embarrassed.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

I seriously hope this cunt gets terminally ill.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> You are the biggest spastic on this forum and everyone who reads this will be thinking the same thing. You type like a fucking 3 year old.


don't weasel out. answer the question. tell in what ground was jones victory over bhop was better than Floyd's over hernandez?
You got Bozo who is against future bs saying i make claims on future events and yet he is saying bhop went on and did what. HYPOCRIT. constantly shooting himself in the foot.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> SO fucking bad. You should be embarrassed.


so predictable and so lame. thats all u got. panick button? shift direction? u so desperate.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> Look at Henderaz's past 10 vs Hopkins past 10 going into their fight? Answer what do you see????? Who fought the better opposition? What is better, lifting a title or fought a vacant? ANSWER.





tliang1000 said:


> don't weasel out. answer the question. tell in what ground was jones victory over bhop was better than Floyd's over hernandez?
> You got Bozo who is against future bs saying i make claims on future events and yet he is saying bhop went on and did what. HYPOCRIT. constantly shooting himself in the foot.


I did, it was the one fucking post you didn't reply to.

Hernandez was at the very end of his career when Floyd caught him, he was past prime and retired afterwards. Hopkins was INCREDIBLY skilled on tape, won a world title little over a year later and went on to have a true ATG career. Arguably even greater than Floyds.


----------



## r1p00pk (Jun 13, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Stop being delusional and just face the facts.
> 
> You did get owned. How did you not get owned? boxrec like a weak casual is your opening defense says it all. Remember i said facts not opinions?


okay look, im not here to try and get into an arguement, but these childish insults like hes delusional etc etc is honestly esb level leave that shit there. You think floyd has the better wins, fine cool there are arguements for that and we do have a recent win against canelo that we arent sure about yet till we see his future unfold. Instead of bringing out insults think of what makes the other guys arguement great then figure out the flaws.

It isnt just "these are the facts i win", we get it you dont like bogo but if a larger portion of this site is saying the opposite, you dont have to follow the crowd like sheep, but you should consider and think about why they think this way then try to give your thoughts on the parts the you find are right with and wrong with what they said and then continue to state yours. Going with boxrec isnt going to help, im sorry to say its a lazy way to prove a point. Like most boxing fans here who argue, they make sure they to watch tape before commenting. If you say thats a waste of time, well then you shouldnt be on a boxing forum.

im trying to help, whether you like it or not, we had a proper discussion about rigo vs floyd, you brought out analytical reasons as to why you believe the opposite of what i think, you can continue to insult but nobody is gonna listen so really there isnt any point. Come up with good reasons as to why and people will agree or disagree but at least theyll respect that you've shown reasons to thinking a certain way.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

r1p00pk said:


> okay look, im not here to try and get into an arguement, but these childish insults like hes delusional etc etc is honestly esb level leave that shit there. You think floyd has the better wins, fine cool there are arguements for that and we do have a recent win against canelo that we arent sure about yet till we see his future unfold. Instead of bringing out insults think of what makes the other guys arguement great then figure out the flaws.
> 
> It isnt just "these are the facts i win", we get it you dont like bogo but if a larger portion of this site is saying the opposite, you dont have to follow the crowd like sheep, but you should consider and think about why they think this way then try to give your thoughts on the parts the you find are right with and wrong with what they said and then continue to state yours. Going with boxrec isnt going to help, im sorry to say its a lazy way to prove a point. Like most boxing fans here who argue, they make sure they to watch tape before commenting. If you say thats a waste of time, well then you shouldnt be on a boxing forum.
> 
> im trying to help, whether you like it or not, we had a proper discussion about rigo vs floyd, you brought out analytical reasons as to why you believe the opposite of what i think, you can continue to insult but nobody is gonna listen so really there isnt any point. Come up with good reasons as to why and people will agree or disagree but at least theyll respect that you've shown reasons to thinking a certain way.


The piece of shit should fuck off back to ESB. It's full of people just like him. He'll probably enjoy it more where he can roll around in shit with the rest of the pigs.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Stop being delusional and just face the facts.
> 
> You did get owned. How did you not get owned? boxrec like a weak casual is your opening defense says it all. Remember i said facts not opinions?


You're not saying anything at all. Don't waste my time.

You're like Charlie Z in the ring; his opponent shoves him and he goes "NO PUSHING, DQ I WIN" and raises his hands up while backpedaling all nervous :lol:


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You're not saying anything at all. Don't waste my time.
> 
> You're like Charlie Z in the ring; his opponent shoves him and he goes "NO PUSHING, DQ I WIN" and raises his hands up while backpedaling all nervous :lol:


u want out already? first u say i provide no argument and the fist one i dish out you run away. i don't expect anything less from u. been schooling ur ass for years. i give u all the credit in the world for being a good writer, a good talker, and secret pacturd, but you really dksab.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> The piece of shit should fuck off back to ESB. It's full of people just like him. He'll probably enjoy it more where he can roll around in shit with the rest of the pigs.


how u gonna call me a spastic damn near every post while i let u slide all those times and the first punch i throw at u, you wishing me terminal illness. and i should go back to esb. good lord the double standards.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> u want out already? first u say i provide no argument and the fist one i dish out you run away. i don't expect anything less from u. been schooling ur ass for years. i give u all the credit in the world for being a good writer, a good talker, and secret pacturd, but you really dksab.


I countered your argument with facts supporting the Hopkins win and criticized your hollow subsequent statements. You seem to think saying "I won" makes you correct. It doesn't. Keep providing us the laughs though. This is almost the Floyd Weaknesses thread all over again.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I did, it was the one fucking post you didn't reply to.
> 
> Hernandez was at the very end of his career when Floyd caught him, he was past prime and retired afterwards. Hopkins was INCREDIBLY skilled on tape, won a world title little over a year later and went on to have a true ATG career. Arguably even greater than Floyds.


Genaro Hernandez retired because of a blood clot you dumb cunt. He had just beaten Genera and Hernandez two top 10 SFW's. It wasn't because he was shot or passed it. He was going to challenge for a title again

Why don't you die of cancer?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I countered your argument with facts supporting the Hopkins win and criticized your hollow subsequent statements. You seem to think saying "I won" makes you correct. It doesn't. Keep providing us the laughs though. This is almost the Floyd Weaknesses thread all over again.


Countered with Jones hurt hand? as if that magically changes Bhop last 10 opponents going into the vacant title fight LMAO! You showed me!


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I countered your argument with facts supporting the Hopkins win and criticized your hollow subsequent statements. You seem to think saying "I won" makes you correct. It doesn't. Keep providing us the laughs though. This is almost the Floyd Weaknesses thread all over again.


You had a chance to gloss through that other 100?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Countered with Jones hurt hand? as if that magically changes Bhop last 10 opponents going into the vacant title fight LMAO! You showed me!


Doesn't change his skill level or his next 10 opponents, either. Just makes it more impressive. Carry on saying nothing.



Hands of Iron said:


> You had a chance to gloss through that other 100?


Nah not yet.


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Genaro Hernandez retired because of a blood clot you dumb cunt. He had just beaten Genera and Hernandez two top 10 SFW's. It wasn't because he was shot or passed it. He was going to challenge for a title again
> 
> Why don't you die of cancer?


So you don't think Hernandez was past his best? :lol:


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> I did, it was the one fucking post you didn't reply to.
> 
> Hernandez was at the very end of his career when Floyd caught him, he was past prime and retired afterwards. Hopkins was INCREDIBLY skilled on tape, won a world title little over a year later and went on to have a true ATG career. Arguably even greater than Floyds.


here comes the excuses. He was out of prime, oh he was too young, he was too old, he wasn't in prime atg LOLOLOL!


----------



## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

tliang1000 said:


> here comes the excuses. He was out of prime, oh he was too young, he was too old, he wasn't in prime atg LOLOLOL!


Idiot.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Doesn't change his skill level or his next 10 opponents, either. Just makes it more impressive. Carry on saying nothing.
> 
> Nah not yet.


Yeah bc Bhop was as good of a boxer then than when he was beating trinidad, tarver and etc. quit lying to everyone and yourself.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Yeah bc Bhop was as good of a boxer then than when he was beating trinidad, tarver and etc. quit lying to everyone and yourself.


Learn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chacal said:


> Idiot.


you can make all the claims you want saying he was this and that. You can't escape the fact that Henderaz was division champ with a good resume while bhop is green and fought NOBODY. Jones' second best win guys. thanks for playing.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Learn.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


you can make all the claims you want saying he was this and that. You can't escape the fact that Henderaz was division champ with a good resume while bhop is green and fought NOBODY. Jones' second best win guys. thanks for playing.

BHOP was a late bloomer, had you followed boxing you will know what i am talking about.
Bhop also said he was green against Jones, but hey why ask him when we can ask you right?


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Chacal said:


> So you don't think Hernandez was past his best? :lol:


Was a 6 fight win streak and had beaten two ranked super featherweights and pretty much ended Azumah Nelson's reign. Only defeat was a competitive loss to Oscar where he quit because Oscar shattered his nose

But your right, in the 2 years before Floyd's absolutely dominated him the way nobody had he was suddenly past his best

Shut up child


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> BHOP was a late bloomer, had you followed boxing you will know what i am talking about.
> Bhop also said he was green against Jones, but hey why ask him when we can ask you right?


OK, ignore the fact you used a blatant strawman argument.

:lol: Nobody is denying Hopkins' best wins came later you fool, but he was still extremely skilled, which is later career is a testament to. If you'd watched Hopkins's older fights you'd know what I was talking about.

Guess what? Jones was also green for that fight, and beat him one-handed.

Are we gong to take fighters' own individual excuses when they lose and take them as gospel over our own observations? Alright then; Canelo was drained, Oscar was done, Marquez was small, Mosley was injured, Corrales was drained, Castillo was robbed. They said it themselves. But hey why ask them when we can ask you right? There goes Floyd's resume :rofl:rofl:rofl You're pathetic.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> OK, ignore the fact you used a blatant strawman argument.
> 
> :lol: Nobody is denying Hopkins' best wins came later you fool, but he was still extremely skilled, which is later career is a testament to. If you'd watched Hopkins's older fights you'd know what I was talking about.
> 
> ...


Bhop got better and better as he progressed. Henderaz was already a proven season veteran. "green jones" although he had a very extensive amateur career fought another green fighter. You want to consider jones green, then floyd is green too. A "green" Floyd fought the division best. You still got owned.


----------



## thehook13 (May 16, 2013)

It's a good comparison to think about. Both are fluid dynamic fighters in their prime. Both gifted athletes and both are genuinely masters of their boxing. If I could call it a draw I would but since Roy was knocking out his opponents a lot more, had power and aggression. Roy fought in the middle of the ring most of the fight, he could play a riskier game and it would pay off for him due to his skills. Where Floyd plays it safe.


----------



## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

You want a highlight reel, it's Roy every time. 
You want to talk legacies impressing, I genuinely understand a pick on either of them.


----------



## Mr. Brain (Jun 4, 2013)

rjjfan said:


> Both extremely talented fighters, rose through the weights and fought big name competition. Whose performances and rise to the top was more impressive to you?


Roy much more entertaining.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Nah not yet.


Procrastinating slouch.


----------



## Slip (Jul 17, 2012)

Roy 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


----------



## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Bit late but a pole added.


----------



## Jonnybravo (Jun 4, 2013)

RJJ


----------



## Brighton Bomber (May 25, 2013)

For me RJJ was more impressive at his peak. 

Mayweather was clearly special but RJJ was just ridiculous in what he was able to get away with. He did so many things wrong yet got away with it anyway. He was so superior to his opposition that he could do crazy things such as KOing an opponent with his hands behind his back. Outrageous speed and devastating power combined into this crazy package. He was stopping guys that had never been stopped before like Malinga, literally toying with world class opposition.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Yea Toney wasn't dominant above 168 due to his lack of dedication. 175 should of been his weight class or maybe he should of made 160 throughout his career if he was dedicated.


This "I weighed 200 pounds in school" tale always sounded like a lazy fat boy's excuse rather than the truth about Toney's natural weight.

Even at 160 he never looked like the early Oscar or the flyweight Donaire - he never towered over his opponents, he never looked like he was two weight classes above.

Hop wasn't a natural middle, he made himself a natural middle through iron self-discipline.

Toney's words "I should have been a heavyweight from the beginning" in reality mean "I should have never been made to run and train - only eat and spar".



Powerpuncher said:


> He's much more of a natural than Floyd is


Despite being somewhat similar they are still different fighters - legs are what separates them (and some other things).

In theory.

Cuz that says more about their styles, rather than about their real weaknesses and strengths.

Floyd's movement is an essentail part of his defensive arsenal - Toney never relied on that.

Yeah, it's a cliche "Toney's got slow feet, any runner will outbox him!"

But who is the better attacking fighter of the two?

Toney despite all the criticism was never Eubank/Marquez-level bad on his front foot - just not the most comfortable at it, not good enough at integrating steady come-forward movement and offense.
He was never goin' to pull a Dempsey with his attack but he still was relatively effective pressuring the stylistic nightmares R.Johnson, Montell and Nunn.

Floyd on one hand has never faced a good mover/defensive spoiler in his career.
On the other, when he had to press the action it was against fightes like Judah and Mitchell - southpaws and not at his best weight which clearly affected his movement.
And he did not look overly impressive doing it - we've discussed it before - more like a limited unnatural version of Curry.

He was more aggressive in his superfeather days - he never repeated those leaping right hands/leaping left hooks/careless (by Floyd's standards) offense afterwards, becoming more and more conservative (more human) as he moved up in weight - but hardly ever giving a strictly offensive performance.
There was nobody around to ask Floyd these question.

I think it's an interesting question - is Floyd a more effective offensive fighter than Toney?

@Bill Jincock



thehook13 said:


> Both are fluid dynamic fighters in their prime.


Roy hardly was fluid.

Floyd is the opposite of that.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Horrible post. I'm from Michigan and nobody believes Toney is anywhere near Floyd.
> 
> Reggie fucking Johnson better jab than Oscar and Cotto lmao


Ok boxrec warrior. yes Reggie J had a better jab than the HBO darlings Oscar and Cotto. Like I say watch some boxing to get a clue instead of using boxrec.

No one gives a shit if you're from Michigan, you've blatantly never set foot in a boxing gym and don't have a clue about boxing technique.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Leftsmash said:


> I agree, it's a shame that his Light heavy weight days were wasted with him struggling with weight for the majority of it. I remember watching his tune
> up fight against Mateen when he was still relatively new to the weight class after his difficulties with making 168 and he was still struggling to make the limit
> at the weigh in that even attracted mockery from the usual ass hats of Lampley and Merchant regarding his weight during the broadcast.
> 
> ...


There really wasn't one, I'm just talking theoretically. I mean Paul Williams has similar physical characteristics but doesn't have the level of speed or athleticism of a Nunn.

IMO Reggie J is his third best win in terms of ability. Jirov was hyped as the man at cruser, a very good win making him no1 in the division although I don't rate it as high as some. Charles Williams was a LHW champ who came down in weight. Holyfield was an ex great so a good win for an ex MW. He beat Ruiz clearly which I personally consider a win because they're all at it with the PEDs. The first Peter fight he deserved.


----------



## Danimal (Oct 9, 2013)

What Roy did was mind blowing. If he retired after Ruiz, or even the first Tarver fight, I think we'd all view him very differently. In his prime he seemed completely unstoppable and his talent level was beyond anything I've ever seen. FOr whatever reason he didn't make a couple of fights I think he should have, but there a few fighters you can't say that about. 

On the other hand, Floyd's resume is miles better and his longevity is ridiculous. If he retires undefeated having beaten Pac, he's a true ATG.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> don't weasel out. answer the question. tell in what ground was jones victory over bhop was better than Floyd's over hernandez?
> You got Bozo who is against future bs saying i make claims on future events and yet he is saying bhop went on and did what. HYPOCRIT. constantly shooting himself in the foot.


Because Hopkins was 100 times better than Hernandez you utter window licking spaz


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> Ok boxrec warrior. yes Reggie J had a better jab than the HBO darlings Oscar and Cotto. Like I say watch some boxing to get a clue instead of using boxrec.
> 
> No one gives a shit if you're from Michigan, you've blatantly never set foot in a boxing gym and don't have a clue about boxing technique.


Lmao I'm going to post Reggie's fight against Steve Collins later today and laugh in your face you scrub

Better jab than Oscar lmao!!!


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> This "I weighed 200 pounds in school" tale always sounded like a lazy fat boy's excuse rather than the truth about Toney's natural weight.
> 
> Even at 160 he never looked like the early Oscar or the flyweight Donaire - he never towered over his opponents, he never looked like he was two weight classes above.
> 
> ...


It's partly because against southpaws he messes his footwork and angles up too. Against Mitchell he looked pretty good I thought, but it's because not much of note is coming back and Mitchell is easy to hit. Judah worked the angles better and was quicker. Against Mosley it's almost like they were taking notes from Winky Wright :hey Against both though it's partly like he doesn't want to actually come forward, fundamentally he feels more natural counter punching.

Importantly though Floyd does keep a tight D while coming forward, which controls the action even though his offensive output isn't the best.

At 130 he was a greater offensive but more fluid, quicker and smoother. Based on how he slowed with each division he went up, makes me think he didn't think he added the weight properly. I'm pretty sure he's added weight doing slow resistance isolated exercises instead of more explosive fully body exercises. Floyd could have been a far better welterweight if he added the weight properly and did the correct resistance work, he could have been just as explosive as he was at 130.


----------



## Powerpuncher (May 20, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Lmao I'm going to post Reggie's fight against Steve Collins later today and laugh in your face you scrub
> 
> Better jab than Oscar lmao!!!


You don't understand what a good jab is because you've never boxed. I'm guessing HBO told you Oscar had a great jab, he doesn't, that's why Quartey and Sturm jabbed his head off, Whitaker too.

People like you who haven't boxed can talk about boxing all day long but you'll never understand it. Not only that instead of watching boxing technique you just goto boxrec, you'll never have a clue about boxing and everyone here and ESB considers you a complete 24 carat retard


----------



## mishima (Jul 17, 2013)

Roy Jones was beast in his prime


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bhop got better and better as he progressed. Henderaz was already a proven season veteran. "green jones" although he had a very extensive amateur career fought another green fighter. You want to consider jones green, then floyd is green too. A "green" Floyd fought the division best. You still got owned.


You're comparing the Hopkins win to Hernandez? Lol. I don't even have to do anything, you auto-embarass yourself.


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

I like Floyd, but I gotta say Roy. I like watching the first Griffin fight cause it proved how great Eddie Futch was to be able to implement a game plan (which ultimately failed) but was successful for a period of time. It's one thing Hopkins said we have a lot of trainers around nowadays but hardly any teachers.

My fav Roy bouts are: Griffin II, Toney, Hall, Kelly, Hopkins I. Imo he didn't get enough credit for the first Tarver fight. I understand his braggadocio only fed his detractors but he should a lot of heart and grit in winning that first bout. Shoulda retired then and there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You're comparing the Hopkins win to Hernandez? Lol. I don't even have to do anything, you auto-embarass yourself.


Yeah I "auto-embarrassed" myself. Look at all the top opp that bhop fought going into his fight with Jones vs Hernadez's. LOL.


1998-10-03Floyd Mayweather Jr*17*-*0*-*0*


Las Vegas Hilton, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALRTD812
 time: 3:00 | referee: Jay Nady | judge: Bob Logist 72-80 | judge: Chuck Giampa 73-79 | judge: Terry Smith 73-79 
WBC World super featherweight title 1998-05-16Carlos Gerena*28*-*1*-*0*


Fantasy Springs Casino, Indio, California, USAWUD1212
referee: James Jen-Kin | judge: Masakazu Uchida 116-113 | judge: Ismael Quinones Falu 117-113 | judge: Henry Elesperu 117-111 
WBC World super featherweight title 1997-11-20Carlos Hernandez*25*-*1*-*1*


Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, USAWUD1212
referee: Dave Nelson | judge: Chuck Hassett 120-107 | judge: Marty Denkin 119-108 | judge: James Jen-Kin 119-108 
WBC World super featherweight title 1997-06-14Anatoly Alexandrov*30*-*3*-*0*


Alamodome, San Antonio, Texas, USAWSD1212
referee: Jerry McKenzie | judge: Jose Juan Guerra 116-113 | judge: Angel Luis Guzman 113-115 | judge: Walter Schramm 116-113 
WBC World super featherweight title 1997-03-22Azumah Nelson*39*-*3*-*2*


Memorial Coliseum, Corpus Christi, Texas, USAWSD1212
referee: Laurence Cole | judge: Alfred Asaro 115-113 | judge: Richard James Davies 118-110 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 113-114 
WBC World super featherweight title 1996-09-28Antonio Hernandez*43*-*20*-*0*


Will Rogers Coliseum, Fort Worth, Texas, USAWUD1010
judge: Gale E. Van Hoy | judge: David Harris 1996-05-08Javier Pichardo*40*-*17*-*1*


Fantasy Springs Casino, Indio, California, USAWTKO510
time: 2:10 | referee: Lou Filippo 1995-09-09Oscar De La Hoya*18*-*0*-*0*


Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USALRTD612
time: 3:00 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Jerry Roth 55-59 | judge: Mike Glienna 55-59 | judge: Chuck Giampa 56-58 
WBO World lightweight title 1995-03-31Jorge Paez*53*-*7*-*4*


Arrowhead Pond, Anaheim, California, USAWTKO810
Paez was stopped on cuts. 1994-11-12Jimmy Garcia*35*-*3*-*0*


Plaza Mexico, Mexico City, Distrito Federal, MexicoWUD1212
referee: Roberto Ramirez Sr. | judge: Julio Roldan 120-107 | judge: Medardo Villalobos 117-109 | judge: Humberto Figueroa 119-109 
WBA World super featherweight title
Hernandez vacates title April 1995, to fight Oscar De La Hoya 1994-01-31Jorge Ramirez*65*-*8*-*3*


Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWTKO812
time: 2:35 | referee: Larry Rozadilla | judge: Lou Moret 70-63 | judge: Francisco Burac 70-64 | judge: Angel C. Tovar 70-64 
WBA World super featherweight title 1993-10-11Harold Warren*25*-*5*-*0*


Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWUD1212
referee: Larry Rozadilla | judge: Fritz Werner 119-109 | judge: Jose Campos 118-115 | judge: Lou Moret 118-110 
WBA World super featherweight title 1993-06-28Raul Perez*50*-*3*-*3*


Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USAWKO812
time: 2:11 | referee: Lou Moret | judge: Larry Rozadilla 69-64 | judge: Guillermo Perez Pineda 70-63 | judge: Oscar Perez Carbonell 69-64 
WBA World super featherweight title 1993-04-26Raul Perez*50*-*3*-*2*


Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, USADTD112
time: 0:28 | referee: Lou Moret | judge: Jesus Celis | judge: Orlando Sam | judge: Fritz Werner

vs 


 
1993-05-22Roy Jones Jr*21*-*0*-*0*


RFK Stadium, Washington, District of Columbia, USALUD1212
 referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Al DeVito 112-116 | judge: Eugene Grant 112-116 | judge: Lynne Carter 112-116 
vacant IBF World middleweight title 1993-02-16Gilbert Baptist*26*-*14*-*0*


McNichols Sports Arena, Denver, Colorado, USAWUD1212
referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 117-110 | judge: Al DeVito 117-110 | judge: Jean Williams 115-112 
USBA middleweight title 1992-12-04Wayne Powell*30*-*3*-*2*


Merv Griffin's Resorts, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWTKO112
time: 0:21 | referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Eugene Grant | judge: Frank Brunette | judge: Lynne Carter 
vacant USBA middleweight title 1992-09-14Eric Rhinehart*12*-*14*-*1*


Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWKO110
time: 1:47 | referee: John Carroll 1992-08-28James Stokes*13*-*4*-*0*


Trump Plaza Hotel, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWKO110
time: 1:44 | referee: Lindsey Page 1992-05-21Anibal Miranda*8*-*8*-*1*


Paris, Paris, FranceWPTS1010
1992-04-03Randy Smith*24*-*23*-*1*


Trump Plaza Hotel, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010
referee: Rudy Battle | judge: Jean Williams 100-90 | judge: Vincent Rainone 100-90 | judge: John Stewart 100-90 1992-01-31Dennis Milton*16*-*3*-*1*


Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO410
time: 3:00 | referee: Hurley McCall | judge: Mercedes Medina | judge: Tommy Reid | judge: Bill Nealon 1991-12-13Willie Kemp*13*-*7*-*0*


Convention Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USAWUD1010
1991-11-26David McCluskey*10*-*22*-*2*


Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO710
Some sources give this as TKO5. _The Philadelphia Inquirer_ gives it as TKO7. 1991-09-23Ralph Moncrief*25*-*15*-*0*


Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO110
time: 1:28 
Moncrief down three times. 1991-07-09Danny Mitchell*7*-*16*-*1*


Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWKO1 


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> You're comparing the Hopkins win to Hernandez? Lol. I don't even have to do anything, you auto-embarass yourself.


Coming from a guy who claims that one big win trumps all and all about competition. What was Bhop's comp going into the jones fight? Yeah you contradicting retard. Shot yourself in the foot didn't you.
*
You give credit to the fight at the time of the fight. Their victory doesn't age better and better just bc the fighter went on doing great things. That is just like saying that a win can get worse and worse depending if the fighter went on to have a bad career. *You understand that logic bozo?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

The op doesn't specify what is "more impressive". Jones is more impressive looking with dazzling hand speed and power but his competition was not as good as Floyd neither was jones' career.


----------



## Jonnybravo (Jun 4, 2013)

Tilang removes floyds testicles from the back of your throat, they are clouding your ability to present a reasoned argument!


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Jonnybravo said:


> Tilang removes floyds testicles from the back of your throat, they are clouding your ability to present a reasoned argument!


quit being an idiot and tell me how does Bhop who hasn't fought ANYONE going into the jones fight equals the second best win of Jones' career?

I guess Margarito have a greater career than Martinez huh.
I guess Rustico have an ATG victory over Pac huh?

1996-02-09Rustico Torrecampo
*11*-*4*-*5*

Mandaluyong City, Metro Manila, PhilippinesLKO310
 I expect more common sense in a boxing forum. This is pathetic.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

wait a minute

are people here talking about the same genaro hernandez that was already beat down by oscar? thats like valuing paqs ko over hatton the same as floyds ko

i know that clueless flomos cant understand the logic of the difference between a win against an undefeated fighter and a non-undefeated fighter as well as a win against a fighter that has been kod to a fighter that has never been kod

an undefeated fighter is going to protect his zero(in the case of genaro hernandez against dlh) because they know that there is value in fight negotiations to a fighter that has never been stopped or never been defeated

here is undefeated adrian broner talking about a possible fight against brandon rios who had just loss and was no longer undefeated






and shane mosely fighting tooth and nail after being severely hurt in his first forrest fight to preserve his undefeated record






and essentially quitting against wright in the fourth round(15:00 minute mark of the video) without even being knocked down






i know that most flomos have only been watching the sport for five or six years byt the stupid shit they say but these basic theories shouldve been picked up within the first year of watching either mma or boxing


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

quincy k said:


> wait a minute
> 
> are people here talking about the same genaro hernandez that was already beat down by oscar? thats like valuing paqs ko over hatton the same as floyds ko
> 
> ...


Who are you talking to and wtf are you talking about it. I'm targeting one point at a time to prevent the usual suspect weaseling out, shifting direction to save face.

This shit is not hard to understand.

You got idiots claiming atg victory for jones, when bhop wasn't nearly as good yet just bc he went on to have a great career following jones' loss.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> You don't understand what a good jab is because you've never boxed. I'm guessing HBO told you Oscar had a great jab, he doesn't, that's why Quartey and Sturm jabbed his head off, Whitaker too.


Reggie would definitely check in at #3 for Toney, and Roy Jones was the only guy in the 1990s who really, clearly beat him. The fight with James was another awfully tight one though I felt Toney edged it. I'm just not as quick to lob him right up there with his other two greatest W's against a pair of truly, extraordinarily difficult opponents like Hoshi does. Physical attributes, ability and skillsets mean the world for it IMO, which is why wins over guys like James Toney, Michael Nunn, Meldrick Taylor, Buddy McGirt, et al. whilst they were on top of their games rate big for me, regardless of where they did or didn't end up on a career ATG list or how big their name recognition is. I can't see simplifying it so severely like that and ignoring the threats presented in the ring or how they were regarded at the time (in this case: elite P4P talents). It's why I feel that outside of Kid Gavilan, Leonard's opposition tops Robinson's at the highest level. Makes me cringe a bit when I see him excluded from the Top 15 on many, many lists especially given how thoroughly elite a boxer-puncher he was himself.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Coming from a guy who claims that one big win trumps all and all about competition. What was Bhop's comp going into the jones fight? Yeah you contradicting retard. Shot yourself in the foot didn't you.
> *
> You give credit to the fight at the time of the fight. Their victory doesn't age better and better just bc the fighter went on doing great things. That is just like saying that a win can get worse and worse depending if the fighter went on to have a bad career. *You understand that logic bozo?


Put the boxrec down for a minute and use those no doubt defective eyes. A young undefeated Hopkins was more skilled. Make poll asking which win was better, don't be shocked when everyone disagrees with you yet again.

As far as wins aging goes, it's context dependent. That's why looking at the film is important. Hopkins matured but he did not dramatically transform. It's actually pretty crazy how similar his upper body movement was.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Woah, leave Oscar's ATG jab out if this.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Put the boxrec down for a minute and use those no doubt defective eyes. *A young undefeated Hopkins was more skilled*. Make poll asking which win was better, don't be shocked when everyone disagrees with you yet again.
> 
> As far as wins aging goes, it's context dependent. That's why looking at the film is important. Hopkins matured but he did not dramatically transform. It's actually pretty crazy how similar his upper body movement was.


Hopkins lost his debut fight you idiot. do you even follow boxing?


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Hopkins lost his debut fight you idiot. do you even follow boxing?


Oh that's right, he and JMM both. He was still more skilled than Hernandez. Go on, make a poll.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Woah, leave Oscar's ATG jab out if this.


That was totally nothing to do with it. :lol:


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Put the boxrec down for a minute and use those no doubt defective eyes. A young undefeated Hopkins was more skilled. Make poll asking which win was better, don't be shocked when everyone disagrees with you yet again.
> 
> As far as wins aging goes, it's context dependent. That's why looking at the film is important. Hopkins matured but he did not dramatically transform. It's actually pretty crazy how similar his upper body movement was.


"defective eyes" facts are facts.
1) Bhop was green
2) Bhop improve at he progress his career.
3) Hernerdaz fought better comp and season veteran going into the fight with Floyd and only had 1 lost.
4) You judge the win at the time of the fight other wise Rustico held an atg victory over pac which we KNOW HE DIDN'T bc Pac was not an ATG yet.

1996-02-09Rustico Torrecampo*11*-*4*-*5*

Mandaluyong City, Metro Manila, PhilippinesLKO310

you are dismissed and take your dumbass friends with you. MOVING ON.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Oh that's right, he and JMM both. He was still more skilled than Hernandez. Go on, make a poll.


Make a poll? Half of the people here suffers group think and you want to make a poll. Yeah make a poll on a popularity contest and disregard the facts.


----------



## Jonnybravo (Jun 4, 2013)

But why you mad tilang?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Jonnybravo said:


> But why you mad tilang?


i'm not mad but just in asshole mode. I didn't want to be in asshole mode but i was forced 

and why do people keep misspell my name...? To prevent mentions?


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> You give credit to the fight at the time of the fight.


That's right.

So Floyd's win over DLH shouldn't be ranked that high since DLH was old and nothing like his old self. Mosley was also old. Marquez hadn't grown into the weight yet & was at a catch weight disadvantage. G. Hernandez wasn't at his prime either. You can also make an argument for Corrales being drained, even tho I think that's most likely one of Floyd's best wins next to Castillo.

Floyd does not have better wins than Roy. Not at all. Bhop was still a very good fighter against Roy the first time, even if he hadn't developed with the experience he would gain later. Toney is an ATG win, better than any win Floyd's got, easily. Virgill Hill is another great win, nobody has ever done that to Hill before or after. Undefeated Julio Cesar Gonzalez & Glen Kelley are both very good wins @ LHW. Clinton Woods was another excellent LHW. Tarver was another very good elite level LHW. Roy beat him when he was past his prime.

Even at 168, Thornton & Sosa are 2 solid wins. Both are dangerous fighters.

You know what Roy has on his resume that Floyd doesn't? he has legitimate technicians. I'm not talking about fucking Canelo or Zab Judah. Floyd's resume is full of solid-very good fighters, sprinklied with Roberto Guerrero's and Carlos Baldomirs.. He lacks that signiture win over another ATG in their prime, like Jones over Toney & Bhop (who was a very good fighter when Roy fought him)


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> tliang1000 said:
> 
> 
> > You give credit to the fight at the time of the fight./QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@tommy gun,

Floyd's victory over JMM >>>> Jones' victory over James Toney.
JMM is better fighter than James Toney and have a better career/ring accomplishment.

This is too easy, and i hope you are smart enough to know this but i know you are a dumbass too so lets go.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

@floyd haters living in lala land. Want to discredit all of Floyd's wins but why are the public demanded Oscar, Shane, Hatton, JMM, Canelo, and Pac?

Before the fight Floyd was Scared but after the fight they are all shot or never was good.
Want the cake and eat it everytime.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> If Oscar and Shane was old then why was there a demand for them to fight Floyd?
> So Oscar beating Mayroga by ko is him displaying that he is old?
> So Shane beating the brakes off margarito pillar to post equals him displaying that he is old?
> You need better evidence then this.
> ...


Because it goes to show that Floyd's welterweight era wasn't that strong.

DLH and Mosley were still cash cows, especially DLH. Mayorga wasn't at his prime either, and Shane did beat Margarito (who was stylistically a good match up for Shane) but that was a year before he fought Floyd. he had a pretty lengthy lay off. So yeah, you can discredit all of these winss.

Obviously Canelo is a very good win, but you have to factor in the catchweight thing also. That takes a little bit away from the win.

Like I said, Canelo isn't a better win than Bernard Hopkins, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin or Toney.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

lol. Word. Now JMM at a catchweight is better than James Toney. I'm done.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Because it goes to show that Floyd's welterweight era wasn't that strong.
> 
> DLH and Mosley were still cash cows, especially DLH. Mayorga wasn't at his prime either, and Shane did beat Margarito (who was stylistically a good match up for Shane) but that was a year before he fought Floyd. he had a pretty lengthy lay off. So yeah, you can discredit all of these winss.
> 
> ...


Why don't you provide what evidences that you have stating that Oscar and Shane was old? Shane was so old that he was able to beat a prime Margarito pillar to post and Oscar who arguably only lost 1 fight in his last 5 against bhop coming into the fight against Floyd? That's your evidence that they are old?

You are using excuses that is being thrown as facts but* the real facts were they were coming off impressive victories coming into fight Floyd. *


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> "defective eyes" facts are facts.
> 1) Bhop was green
> 2) Bhop improve at he progress his career.
> 3) Hernerdaz fought better comp and season veteran going into the fight with Floyd and only had 1 lost.
> ...


Pacquiao on film was not nearly as skilled at that time as he was later on. Not the case with B-Hop who kept the same general style and was more still skilled than Hernandez. Your analogy falls flat. Give it up.

You don't want a poll because you'll be wrong, again. Which is strange because half of your arguments rest on "WATCH IN 10 YEARS PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH ME".


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

wholly fuck

are people now deducing themselves to putting canelos name with the likes of hopkins, hill and toney?

wow, this is just horrible. 

fuken canelo?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Pacquiao on film was not nearly as skilled at that time as he was later on. Not the case with B-Hop who kept the same general style and was more still skilled than Hernandez. Your analogy falls flat. Give it up.
> 
> You don't want a poll because you'll be wrong, again. Which is strange because half of your arguments rest on "WATCH IN 10 YEARS PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH ME".


Bhop described his style early in his career as raw and crude and he modified his style to more economical accurate and defensive style. More counter punching then just a come forward fighter. So you are wrong. The way he fought jones resembles very little then the bhop style that we all grown to know.

You should follow boxing instead of pretending that you know what you are talking about. If i think like a casual like you, i wouldn't win any money in sports gambling. Majority of the idiots online right now is saying that Pac will be too much for Floyd just shows that your love of polls means shit.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> That's right.
> 
> So Floyd's win over DLH shouldn't be ranked that high since DLH was old and nothing like his old self. Mosley was also old. Marquez hadn't grown into the weight yet & was at a catch weight disadvantage. G. Hernandez wasn't at his prime either. You can also make an argument for Corrales being drained, even tho I think that's most likely one of Floyd's best wins next to Castillo.
> 
> ...


Preach.


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

quincy k said:


> wholly fuck
> 
> are people now deducing themselves to putting canelos name with the likes of hopkins, hill and toney?
> 
> ...


Again... who are you talking to and wtf are you talking about? You have debates in your own head again?


----------



## tliang1000 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Preach.


You are so desperate for support it is sad. Can you ever make a decision on your own without others?

"preach" wtf evidence did he provide that actually proved that Oscar and Shane was old? yeah ok... but you will kiss anyone's ass right now being so badly beaten in this debate.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> It's partly because against southpaws he messes his footwork and angles up too.


Interesting that Toney never had these kind of problems with southpaws.



Powerpuncher said:


> Against Mosley it's almost like they were taking notes from Winky Wright :hey Against both though it's partly like he doesn't want to actually come forward, fundamentally he feels more natural counter punching.


Winky is more apt comparison - it's too methodical, static and one-dimensional to be really compared to Curry.

You can feel he does that cuz he artificially trained that particular tactic.
This shit wouldn't fly with really good fighters.



Powerpuncher said:


> At 130 he was a greater offensive but more fluid, quicker and smoother. Based on how he slowed with each division he went up, makes me think he didn't think he added the weight properly. I'm pretty sure he's added weight doing slow resistance isolated exercises instead of more explosive fully body exercises. Floyd could have been a far better welterweight if he added the weight properly and did the correct resistance work, he could have been just as explosive as he was at 130.


Was too eager chasing money.

He looked at his worse the first time he fought at 154.



Powerpuncher said:


> You don't understand what a good jab is because you've never boxed. I'm guessing HBO told you Oscar had a great jab, he doesn't, that's why Quartey and Sturm jabbed his head off, Whitaker too


Oscar had a good jab.
When he was facing midgets and fighters who had no jab.

Reggie's weaknesses were not technical - he was pretty much a classic textbook counterpuncher - but physical and mental - not that he wasn't tough, athletic or durable but always lacked focus and stamina maybe to be consistent throughout the whole fight.
That's why fights like the Collins one were closer than they should have been.



Hands of Iron said:


> Roy Jones was the only guy in the 1990s who really, clearly beat him.


One of Castro fights was controversial, the other one was an outright robbery; the John David Jackson fight Reggie lost a close decision, if I remember correctly - been a while since I watched them.

Argentina hates Reggie.


----------



## Hoshi (Aug 21, 2012)

elterrible said:


> 147 benefited Hatton more than floyd. Tired of that excuse made for Hatton. HE was the one who said he struggled to make 140. It allowed him to not have to drain. Mayweather was going to be lighter than Hatton on fight night either way and was not the one with weight problems. You guys act like Floyd was going to be 165 or some shit on fight night.


I do not get this train of thought. You think because Hatton abused his body outside of fights that the biased Mayweather fans can claim he is better off at 147?

Lets instead use something called common sense, look and please let it be for the last time, at Hatton and Marquez resumes at 147 when they fought Mayweather. Lets look at the depth, consistency and performance to see if it outshines the other weight classes at which they fought. It would have to be impressive.

Don't worry I just double checked its nothing to even consider.



MichiganWarrior said:


> Mosley was coming off his career best win, Floyd jumped up a full weight class to face a 165lb Oscar de la Hoya coming off giving Mayorga the worst throttling of his career, and Cotto is middleweight champion of the world
> 
> Whatever state they were in given your obviously biased and small minded logic they were all better than Reggie Johnson


This is how weak his resume is, trying to say Oscar, Cotto and Mosley were at their peak's atsch

Desperation. All had seen better days. This is a fact.

For the last time Mayweather's best wins are ... Castillo, if you want to continue being a cunt we can do the same and say hey he lost to this guy first time around.

Corrales, going to jail, mentally absent, no jab, weight drained.

These are the types of comments you make about other boxers.

Nobody in their right mind can even argue that Castillo, Corrales and past it Oscar stand up to McCallum, Johnson and Nunn.



MichiganWarrior said:


> Mosley was coming off his career best win,


This is all that needs to be highlighted in all honesty. GOLDEN NUGGET!!

You are not a boxing fan, you are a Mayweather fan who lives with his mum still and has his posters on your bedroom wall atsch:smile


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Bhop described his style early in his career as raw and crude and he modified his style to more economical accurate and defensive style. More counter punching then just a come forward fighter. So you are wrong. The way he fought jones resembles very little then the bhop style that we all grown to know.
> 
> You should follow boxing instead of pretending that you know what you are talking about. If i think like a casual like you, i wouldn't win any money in sports gambling. Majority of the idiots online right now is saying that Pac will be too much for Floyd just shows that your love of polls means shit.


Crude for Hopkins's standards of efficiency and accuracy maybe :lol: It doesn't mean he didn't have incredible ring generalship and defensive prowess and offensive ability, which is on film you are trying to avoid referencing since you're base of knowledge is boxrec. "Just a come forward fighter" :rofl

There's nobody on this board more similar to a casual than you. You made your mind up that Floyd is the greatest thing ever a long time ago, and retroactively try to build your arguments around that notion, constantly revealing glaring holes in your knowledge and understanding. There's a reason you never convince anybody.



tliang1000 said:


> You are so desperate for support it is sad. Can you ever make a decision on your own without others?
> 
> "preach" wtf evidence did he provide that actually proved that Oscar and Shane was old? yeah ok... but you will kiss anyone's ass right now being so badly beaten in this debate.


How am I desperate? Did I ask for anyone's help? He made a good post and I agreed with him. You're the one desperately trying to make me look bad here :lol: It's almost cute how you think you're waging some noble war to "expose" me, but the truth is your just a pest who the best posters on this forum try to help and just shake their head at. The Carlie Z comparisons continue lol.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> It's partly because against southpaws he messes his footwork and angles up too. Against Mitchell he looked pretty good I thought, but it's because not much of note is coming back and Mitchell is easy to hit. Judah worked the angles better and was quicker. Against Mosley it's almost like they were taking notes from Winky Wright :hey Against both though it's partly like he doesn't want to actually come forward, fundamentally he feels more natural counter punching.
> 
> Importantly though Floyd does keep a tight D while coming forward, which controls the action even though his offensive output isn't the best.
> 
> At 130 he was a greater offensive but more fluid, quicker and smoother. Based on how he slowed with each division he went up, makes me think he didn't think he added the weight properly. *I'm pretty sure he's added weight doing slow resistance isolated exercises instead of more explosive fully body exercises.* Floyd could have been a far better welterweight if he added the weight properly and did the correct resistance work, he could have been just as explosive as he was at 130.


It's never too late for Floyd to do plyometrics is it?
Even if he's older now.

Also I think part of Floyd getting offensively weaker has more to do with his hand problems than incorrect training.

Also what does a "natural weight" even mean?
weight is just how much calories you consume, I know plenty of guys here in the Netherlands who are 6'3+ (even a 7 foot giant) who are 120-140 lbs. And if you ask them if they starve themselves they say no because they're comfortable not eating a lot.
You can call that their natural weight, but it sure as hell isn't ideal to be 6'6 and 130 pounds.

Or is someone's natural weight where they're the strongest relative to their peers in that weight class.
Or is the weight where the diminishing returns of adding weight has become so big that adding more weight is essentially useless (or even hinders performance).


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

tliang1000 said:


> Why don't you provide what evidences that you have stating that Oscar and Shane was old? Shane was so old that he was able to beat a prime Margarito pillar to post and Oscar who arguably only lost 1 fight in his last 5 against bhop coming into the fight against Floyd? That's your evidence that they are old?
> 
> You are using excuses that is being thrown as facts but* the real facts were they were coming off impressive victories coming into fight Floyd. *


Why was Margacheato prime against Mosley? Keep in mind that was the last significant win mosley ever had.

Mosley was coming off a lay off, and clearly was not prime against Floyd. That is "fact".

DLH was in his third to last fight against Floyd, looked like shit against Packy & Forbes but i know you'll just say he was weight drained against Packy.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> This "I weighed 200 pounds in school" tale always sounded like a lazy fat boy's excuse rather than the truth about Toney's natural weight.
> Even at 160 he never looked like the early Oscar or the flyweight Donaire - he never towered over his opponents, he never looked like he was two weight classes above.
> Hop wasn't a natural middle, he made himself a natural middle through iron self-discipline.
> Toney's words "I should have been a heavyweight from the beginning" in reality mean "I should have never been made to run and train - only eat and spar".


Do you really need to tower over your opponents to be bigger?
It's not like Dwight Qawi ever towered over anyone and matching him up with 5'6 lightweight is utterly insane.(just an example, I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth)

Bernard had a very easy time staying at 160.
iron self-discipline is just a synonym for being able to count calories or knowing when enough food is enough.
Otherwise he wouldn't have lasted at middleweight for 15 years.

He obviously has the frame to carry 175 comfortably but he never had trouble making 160 pounds.

And about James Toney, he did prove he was capable of being a top 5 heavyweight late in his career. (even if that was a rather poor time period)
I think his frame is clearly big enough to handle 220 pounds rather well (even if it may not have been ideal), but his best weight will probably forever remain a mystery.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> Crude for Hopkins's standards of efficiency and accuracy maybe :lol: It doesn't mean he didn't have incredible ring generalship and defensive prowess and offensive ability, which is on film you are trying to avoid referencing since you're base of knowledge is boxrec. "Just a come forward fighter" :rofl
> 
> There's nobody on this board more similar to a casual than you. You made your mind up that Floyd is the greatest thing ever a long time ago, and retroactively try to build your arguments around that notion, constantly revealing glaring holes in your knowledge and understanding. There's a reason you never convince anybody.


Hopkins looked very good in his fight before Roy.





Maybe not as efficient, but he became more efficient because he was getting older.
Young Hopkins just threw quite a lot of leather.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

dyna said:


> Hopkins looked very good in his fight before Roy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed, the way he slips in exchanges on the inside with fluid upper body movement using the momentum of the punch is just ace. Older Hopkins adjusted his efficiency and certainly gained in experience, but younger Hopkins had the same fundamentals, defensive awareness, coupled with a more vicious offense. The way he broke down Glen Johnson a few years later was impressive as well. Great body attack.


----------



## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Lol


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> Do you really need to tower over your opponents to be bigger?


Not necessarily, of course.



dyna said:


> Bernard had a very easy time staying at 160.


It's not easy to leave like a monk and train non-stop for decades.



dyna said:


> He obviously has the frame to carry 175 comfortably but he never had trouble making 160 pounds


Having trouble making weight doesn't always indicate you're too big for a division.

Toney was just skillful and durable enough to get away with such shit - fighting much bigger guys while being an outta shape piece of lard.
Like Duran before him.

And his style isn't reliant on things Hop, Jones, Floyd, etc do.
Like Duran before him.



dyna said:


> I think his frame is clearly big enough to handle 220 pounds rather well (even if it may not have been ideal)


His ass was big enough to carry that weight.



dyna said:


> his best weight will probably forever remain a mystery.


Nah, it's not a mystery.

Toney was a natural super middle in his prime that could've moved up as he gotten older and stayed at light heavy for years, had he not been such a lazy fatass.

He was a growing young man at 160, outgrew the division and then just kept and kept eating, especially after the Jones fiasco till he found himself not being able to make even the light heavyweight limit.



dyna said:


> Hopkins looked very good in his fight before Roy.


Hop looked good even in his first ever televised fght.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hands of Iron said:


> Roy Jones was the only guy in the 1990s who really, clearly beat him.





Lester1583 said:


> the John David Jackson fight Reggie lost a close decision, if I remember correctly - been a while since I watched them


Have just rewatched it.

It was close but I thought JD Jackson edged it - mostly by being much faster, more active and forcing Reggie to play the role of an aggressor.

Jackson actually looked pretty good in there - he was a good tricky middleweight for a while, up untill the Castro fight.


----------



## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

Both sides have some good points but I think going back to the impressiveness part, based on the naked eye, its much easier to select Roy.


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

Powerpuncher said:


> Based on how he slowed with each division he went up, makes me think he didn't think he added the weight properly. I'm pretty sure he's added weight doing slow resistance isolated exercises instead of more explosive fully body exercises.


It's funny how this prejudice against weights is still alive in boxing, MMA, etc.
"Weights will make you stiff and slow! Don't do it!"

While in reality it really depends on what are you doing with them.
Not every weight training is going to make you big, slow and clumsy.

Weightlifting is the oppostite of stiff and slow - all weightlifters are explosive and flexible.

Fighters don't need bodybuilding exercises - 8-12 reps, moderate speed, pumping, etc - they need like you said explosive compound movements, if they train with weights.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> It's funny how this prejudice against weights is still alive in boxing, MMA, etc.
> "Weights will make you stiff and slow! Don't do it!"
> 
> While in reality it really depends on what are you doing with them.
> ...


So just weighted plyometrics and/or olympic weightlifting, right


----------



## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> So just weighted plyometrics and/or olympic weightlifting, right


I'm not a professional trainer - but judging by my own experience and what I know about pro-fighters' workouts, it's usually a bit of everything - some olympic lifts or some compound movements done in an explosive manner; some classic freeweight exercises: pull-ups, push-ups, dips, etc; some freeweight plyometrics - although in boxing it's usually just variations of simple jumping, not some advanced stuff - just your basic vertical jumps; some sledgehammer exercises.

Better ask dealt_with though - he's the authority on training here.
But don't forget to post a video of your training, so that Cabbleaddict could give a few pointers.


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Lester1583 said:


> I'm not a professional trainer - but judging by my own experience and what I know about pro-fighters' workouts, it's usually a bit of everything - some olympic lifts or some compound movements done in an explosive manner; some classic freeweight exercises: pull-ups, push-ups, dips, etc; some freeweight plyometrics - although in boxing it's usually just variations of simple jumping, not some advanced stuff - just your basic vertical jumps; some sledgehammer exercises.
> 
> Better ask dealt_with though - he's the authority on training here.
> *But don't forget to post a video of your training, so that Cabbleaddict could give a few pointers.*


He thought me the giraffe rollâ„¢, haven't been KOd since.


----------



## turbotime (May 12, 2013)

Jones was so great even though he was under the radar people STILL ask me about him.


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## Lester1583 (Jun 30, 2012)

dyna said:


> He thought me the giraffe rollâ„¢, haven't been KOd since.


Advanced old school techniques, I see.
Henry Burley stuff.
Slick orange boxing.


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Lester1583 said:


> One of Castro fights was controversial, the other one was an outright robbery; the John David Jackson fight Reggie lost a close decision, if I remember correctly - been a while since I watched them.
> 
> Argentina hates Reggie.


It's been a long time. I remember a couple years ago when we were discussing the late 80s/early 90s middleweight scene with the likes of Toney, Nunn, McCallum, Kalambay amongst several others - the most talented era _on film_ in the division's history - @turbotime was going back and watching a bunch of Reggie J stuff.



Chacal said:


> Rank higher as an ATG





Bogotazo said:


> Nah not yet.


McGrain's Vaunted List... 'The Moderns'

_100. George Foreman
99. Jung Koo Chang
97. James Toney
94. Lennox Lewis 
92. Joe Frazier
89. Marco Antonio Barrera
88. Erik Morales
86. Wilfred Benitez 
85. Juan Manuel Marquez
78. Bob Foster 
77. Larry Holmes 
76. Mike McCallum 
75. Azumah Nelson 
74. Oscar De La Hoya
73. Carlos Zarate
72. Miguel Canto
63. Wilfredo Gomez
62. Salvador Sanchez
55. Evander Holyfield
51. Bernard Hopkins 
48. Manny Pacquiao 
47. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
44. Thomas Hearns 
42. Michael Spinks
41. Alexis Arguello
40. Jose Napoles
35. Julio Cesar Chavez, Sr.
34. Marvin Hagler
31. Carlos Monzon
29. Roy Jones, Jr.
20. Pernell Whitaker 
16. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Roberto Duran
07. Muhammad Ali_


----------



## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> It's been a long time. I remember a couple years ago when we were discussing the late 80s/early 90s middleweight scene with the likes of Toney, Nunn, McCallum, Kalambay amongst several others - the most talented era _on film_ in the division's history - @*turbotime* was going back and watching a bunch of Reggie J stuff.
> 
> McGrain's Vaunted List... 'The Moderns'
> 
> ...


:haye


----------



## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Negligence.










































The Best don't fight The Best :cry


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Hoshi said:


> I do not get this train of thought. You think because Hatton abused his body outside of fights that the biased Mayweather fans can claim he is better off at 147?


No, because Floyd himself is a small welterweight, had only fought 4 times above welter and 2 of those were against former junior welters Judah and Mitchell

Hatton was the bigger supposedly stronger man (Hatton and trainer commenting on Floyd's size during the preflight build up).

Weight had no effect on the fight, Hatton in fact weighed the same against Pacquiao as he did against Floyd.

The fact you insist Hatton was at a disadvantage because of the weight shows your utter lack of intelligence. Let me repeat that. Not boxing knowledge but intelligence.



> Marquez resumes at 147 when they fought Mayweather.


Yes let's ignore the fact Marquez kos Pacquiao at 147

Tell me stupid, if weight was the issue against Marquez why didn't Marquez want a rematch after Pacquiao?

Honestly even the so called trolls on ESB showed more intelligence then your nonsensical posting



> This is how weak his resume is, trying to say Oscar, Cotto and Mosley were at their peak's atsch


Never said that. Your lack of intelligence and simple reading skills again are evident

I said all 3 were coming off very good wins

Oscar v Mayorga (nobody dominated Mayorga in such a manner)

Mosley (arguably best welter in the world after beating Margarito)

Cotto (wins middleweight title)

Your excuse making in trying to downplay Mayweathers resume when Mayweather is himself the best in the world at 38 is futile and laughable

You are an absolute joke



> if you want to continue being a cunt we can do the same and say hey he lost to this guy first time around.


Post your scorecard fetal alcohol syndrome sufferer



> This is all that needs to be highlighted in all honesty. GOLDEN NUGGET!!


Besides maybe Oscar who is a better wiin than Mosley koing unstoppable Margarito in front of 20,000 in LA at his age becoming arguably the best welter in the world?



> You are not a boxing fan, you are a Mayweather fan who lives with his mum still and has his posters on your bedroom wall atsch:smile


I've been following boxer long than you've been born. I live with a member of the US team. My city has produced more champs than your entire country

You are a white Brit with a Japanese username. Guaranteed you're fat and ugly


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

Powerpuncher said:


> You don't understand what a good jab is because you've never boxed.


Just asked one of the top 114lb amateurs in America if Oscar had a good jab and he looked at me as if I was dumb. I told him I keep gettin into debates with stupid people online.

But by all means tell me your boxing credentials, or pm me your real name, I'll ask my roommate if he's heard of you on the circuit. Or are you just some bum like bogotozo who went to the local YMCA once and got beat up and thinks they're a boxer now?



> I'm guessing HBO told you Oscar had a great jab, he doesn't, that's why Quartey and Sturm jabbed his head off, Whitaker too.


First off Oscar always had poor head movement, his inability to get out of the way of a great jab a weakness of his for sure is in no way a indictment of his own jab

Marquez is similarly a fighter who himself struggles with opponents who have good jabs but himself has a great jab because of his sometimes static head movement

Floyd vs Oscar is an example of this with Oscar being able to dictate the pace of the fight for periods of time with his jab but also struggling to get out of the way of Floyds snappy jab because of his lack of head movement.

Secondly, Whitaker and Ike Quartey if ranked in a category of alltime great jab artists would be near the top of the list and Sturm being a classically schooled European boxer and being a middleweight no less is no slouch in that department as well

Finally, Vargas, Mosley, Trinidad, Mayweather, I suggest you review those fights to see Oscar at his best when executing behind the jab,.


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Lol

"Jab artists"


----------



## Cableaddict (Jun 6, 2013)

dyna said:


> He thought me the giraffe rollâ„¢, haven't been KOd since.


I LIKE it ! (That giraffe on the right should get with Freddy roach. He has potential.)

BTW, you DO realize that I'm right about that technique, yes? I even included a few links, in that last thread, that explain it in detail.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

The Great Reggie Johnson ladies and gentlmen, getting a gift vs Steve Collins
















The most impressive thing about this fight is Reggie Johnsons ability to be repeatedly hit with overhand right after right and not be unconscious. Superb jab, ring generalship and technique must be in another fight though, because it certainly isnt here. Unless we're actually talking about Steve Collins who looked like the part of a seasoned professional boxer.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Lol
> 
> "Jab artists"


Dont be a female, if you have something to say to me then say it scrub


----------



## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Dont be a female, if you have something to say to me then say it scrub


I decide not to get into the confrontational BS anymore. Just thought the term jab artist sounded funny.


----------



## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

Hoshi said:


> I do not get this train of thought. You think because Hatton abused his body outside of fights that the biased Mayweather fans can claim he is better off at 147?
> 
> Lets instead use something called common sense, look and please let it be for the last time, at Hatton and Marquez resumes at 147 when they fought Mayweather. Lets look at the depth, consistency and performance to see if it outshines the other weight classes at which they fought. It would have to be impressive.
> 
> Don't worry I just double checked its nothing to even consider.


I said, Hatton vs Mayweather at 147 BENEFITED HATTON more than May. Hatton's fight with collazo doesnt have anything to do with this. Collazo was bigger than the average 140 lb guy Hatton was used to fighting, Hatton didnt have his usual size advantage and that was that.

140 or 147, its still the same guy, Mayweather. He isnt a large welterweight and he wasnt one back then. He was 150 on fight night, SMALLER than most 140 pounders. 147 benefited Hatton more than Mayweather because Hatton was the one who had problems draining down. Mayweather didnt have that problem.


----------



## elterrible (May 20, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> This is an acid test to who doesn't know shit about boxing or who started following boxing a couple years ago
> 
> Hatton was at a weight disadvantage against Floyd lol
> 
> CHB is the best comedy forum on the net.


"But it wasnt his best weight." Is a retarded argument. Floyd is going to be the same size either way.

Its like making Chavez vs Hopkins at 175. Who would that benefit more? It would help Chavez's fat ass despite him never fighting at 175 yet.


----------



## paloalto00 (Jun 7, 2013)

Roy Jones was a freak of nature. Floyd is very intelligent inside the ring, but his opposition or his choice of timing of taking his opposition shadows some of his success


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

elterrible said:


> "But it wasnt his best weight." Is a retarded argument. Floyd is going to be the same size either way.
> 
> Its like making Chavez vs Hopkins at 175. Who would that benefit more? It would help Chavez's fat ass despite him never fighting at 175 yet.


hattons best weight was not 147, it was 140

hatton after 12 rounds with collazo



















mosely after 12 rounds with collazo










floyd saw how easy it was for mosely to win by 27 whopping points against luis(approximately what floyd beat jmm to put things in proper prospective) after hatton went life and death with collazo and floyd got out his cherry picker and said...

hello ricky hatton!atsch

rofl:rofl

lmfao:rofl


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> hattons best weight was not 147, it was 140
> hatton after 12 rounds with collazo
> http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44269000/jpg/_44269469_hatton_collazo270.jpg
> [IMG]http://www.boxnews.com.ua/photos/986/hatton_collozo_speak2_crop.jpg
> ...


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> Why are you assuming Floyd didn't want Mosley?
> You know Mosley ducked Floyd right?
> 
> 
> ...


what the collazo/mosely fight proved was that hatton was not a 147. it would be a different story if hatton had never previously fought at 147 but the fact that he did, and went life and death at the weight with a fighter who was then absolutely schooled by mosely, shows that ricky was not a worthy challenger to the then 147 and 154 champ and had no business fighting at 147

and ricky knew that and thats why he relinquished his 147 belt rather than ever trying to defend it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/5287038.stm


----------



## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> what the collazo/mosely fight proved was that hatton was not a 147. it would be a different story if hatton had never previously fought at 147 but the fact that he did, and went life and death at the weight with a fighter who was then absolutely schooled by mosely, shows that ricky was not a worthy challenger to the then 147 and 154 champ and had no business fighting at 147
> 
> and ricky knew that and thats why he relinquished his 147 belt rather than ever trying to defend it
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/5287038.stm


And do you think Hatton would have done even a little better if the fight was at 140 instead of 147?
The only difference those 7 pounds made was that Floyd didn't have to drain and Hatton had to drain a lot less.


----------



## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

dyna said:


> And do you think Hatton would have done even a little better if the fight was at 140 instead of 147?
> The only difference those 7 pounds made was that Floyd didn't have to drain and Hatton had to drain a lot less.


no, not at all.

he still wouldve lost if floyd could comfortably made the 140

im just saying that a 147 hatton win is nothing because the collazo/mosely fight proved that. if luis came out later and said that he was sick, injured or whatever for the mosely fight then you might be able to discount shanes win and collazos poor performance but luis never did.

just the same as hatton never came out and gave an excuse for why he did not perform well against collazo


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> no, not at all.
> 
> he still wouldve lost if floyd could comfortably made the 140
> 
> ...


Collazo broke his hand during the 3rd vs Mosley, we've been over this.

Also Collazo was a solid welter, wins over Berto and Ortiz. Losing to Mosley in one sided fashion isnt a mark against considering how Mosley beat the fuck out of Margarito. Are you saying Margarito was trash because he got dominated by Mosley. No?

Of course not, youre just an idiot.


----------



## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

elterrible said:


> "But it wasnt his best weight." Is a retarded argument. Floyd is going to be the same size either way.
> 
> Its like making Chavez vs Hopkins at 175. Who would that benefit more? It would help Chavez's fat ass despite him never fighting at 175 yet.


Only a complete retard would discount Floyds win over Hatton because of the weight.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> The Great Reggie Johnson ladies and gentlmen, getting a gift vs Steve Collins
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bump. Come on "Old Heads" tell me what im missing in Reggie Johnsons abilities here. I want to know where that stellar jab is and why he was such a stellar technician.


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Collazo broke his hand during the 3rd vs Mosley, we've been over this.
> 
> Also Collazo was a solid welter, wins over _*Berto and Ortiz.*_ Losing to Mosley in one sided fashion isnt a mark against considering how Mosley beat the fuck out of Margarito. Are you saying Margarito was trash because he got dominated by Mosley. No?
> 
> Of course not, youre just an idiot.


it was ligament damage... in his thumb. do you know the difference between a thumb and a hand?

and when did he beat berto?

and ortiz?

is this the same ortiz that was coming back from back-to-back ko losses and previously ko three times? the most recent being a fractured jaw that had hi sitting out for a year and a half?

and margo was drained at the weight

just stfu already.


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Collazo broke his hand during the 3rd vs Mosley, we've been over this.
> 
> Also Collazo was a solid welter, wins over Berto and Ortiz. Losing to Mosley in one sided fashion isnt a mark against considering how Mosley beat the fuck out of Margarito. Are you saying Margarito was trash because he got dominated by Mosley. No?
> 
> Of course not, youre just an idiot.


duplicate post


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> Collazo broke his hand during the 3rd vs Mosley, we've been over this.
> 
> Also Collazo was a solid welter, wins over Berto and Ortiz. Losing to Mosley in one sided fashion isnt a mark against considering how Mosley beat the fuck out of Margarito. Are you saying Margarito was trash because he got dominated by Mosley. No?
> 
> Of course not, youre just an idiot.


stop captioning my posts as ive told you on numerous occasions that i want nothing to do with you because youre not well and youre on my ignore list. banned here on the chb forum twice within a 30 day period? how pathetic you are

seriously, instead of spending so much time here shouldnt you think about getting a second job so you wouldnt need a roommate? seriously, a fuken room mate and youre in your late 30s? its not like you live in manhattan beach,ca, where rents and mortgages are high

you live in a ghetto in grand rapids


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> it was ligament damage... in his thumb. do you know the difference between a thumb and a hand?


So he was injured? So shut up. 


> and margo was drained at the weight
> 
> just stfu already.


atsch:rofl

You're an idiot.


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## MichiganWarrior (Jun 4, 2013)

quincy k said:


> stop captioning my posts as ive told you on numerous occasions that i want nothing to do with you because youre not well and youre on my ignore list. banned here on the chb forum twice within a 30 day period? how pathetic you are
> 
> seriously, instead of spending so much time here shouldnt you think about getting a second job so you wouldnt need a roommate? seriously, a fuken room mate and youre in your late 30s? its not like you live in manhattan beach,ca, where rents and mortgages are high
> 
> you live in a ghetto in grand rapids


lmao. You live in mexico.

You mad because I just raped you? Didnt you get that alot in prison?


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> So he was injured? So shut up.
> 
> atsch:rofl
> 
> You're an idiot.


like clottey was injured against margarito? hayes toe against wlad?

seriously, stop captioning my posts you spastic psychopath


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## quincy k (Oct 4, 2013)

MichiganWarrior said:


> lmao. _*You live in mexico. *_
> 
> You mad because I just raped you? Didnt you get that alot in prison?


you have zero world experience with that statement and everyone with world experience knows what an idiot you are for saying that.

why dont you stop captioning my posts? do you realize how pathetic you are trying to have some perverse on-line relationship with someone that wants nothing to do with you?

seriously, banned twice in 30 days on an internet forum?


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Maybe Ricky Hatton just struggles with southpaws


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

No comment on McRains list @Bogotazo? Don't know where to even start? Devastated? :lol:


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> No comment on McRains list @Bogotazo? Don't know where to even start? Devastated? :lol:


Lol I saw it. Definitely a decent list, respectable. There's a middle chunk you can probably guess with 3 names I'd flip though.


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> Lol I saw it. Definitely a decent list, respectable. There's a middle chunk you can probably guess with 3 names I'd flip though.


Essentially his Top 15 of the Color TV Era.

_01. Muhammad Ali
02. Roberto Duran
03. Ray Leonard
04. Pernell Whitaker 
05. Roy Jones, Jr.
06. Carlos Monzon
07. Marvin Hagler
08. Julio Cesar Chavez
09. Jose Napoles
10. Alexis Arguello
11. Michael Spinks 
12. Thomas Hearns
13. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
14. Manny Pacquiao 
15. Bernard Hopkins_

I would have neither Monzon or Hagler that high myself.


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## Jay (May 31, 2012)

RJJ offensively, FMJ defensively


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

Jay said:


> RJJ offensively, FMJ defensively


Possibly the first time I have ever seen you post in a boxing thread. :lol:


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Hands of Iron said:


> Essentially his Top 15 of the Color TV Era.
> 
> _01. Muhammad Ali
> 02. Roberto Duran
> ...


Because you like to rank fighters based off of top wins, and not dominance. That's the only way someone like Toney could be rated over Hagler :lol:


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## Hands of Iron (Jun 27, 2012)

tommygun711 said:


> Because you like to rank fighters based off of top wins, and not dominance. That's the only way someone like Toney could be rated over Hagler :lol:


:rofl

God knows how you couldn't clearly win those debates. I don't rate Toney higher, I was trolling you.

I'm actually referencing Spinks more than anybody with that comment.


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