# Paulie Malignaggi: "Pacquiao's never looked like Superman with random drug testing"



## Jenna (Jun 13, 2012)

Paulie Malignaggi giving his views on why Pacquiao has changed in the last few years.....

http://ontheropesboxing.com/paulie-malignaggi-interview-part-2-pacquiao/

I wonder if it's just the old grudge, or if he really believes it.


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## sugarshane_24 (Apr 20, 2013)

He's with showtime, he is compelled to not say anything positive with those who reside hbo.

Coupled with bitterness that he missed out a Pac payday, he lost to a Pac sparring partner, and he never even went past midcard status while a non-American became a star.


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## mrtony80 (Jun 8, 2013)

Post the video where I put him in his place on your show.


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## JohnAnthony (Jun 6, 2013)

he still looked brilliant in both bradley fights.

you could argue its because he is no longer a full time boxer. he lets himself get very doughie between fights now.


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## Jenna (Jun 13, 2012)

mrtony80 said:


> Post the video where I put him in his place on your show.


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## mrtony80 (Jun 8, 2013)

That's the one. :good


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

What fights were drug tested Bradley 1 to Bradley II. You could say he lost 2 rounds to Bradley first time, 1 to Marquez minus the KO round, 0 to Rios and 4 to Bradley. Even before that he shut out Mosley, Margo and Clottey in a row.

The only person who has looked good against Pacquaio in about 7/8 years is Marquez.

Paulie is just jealous.

Sent from my Lumia 800 using Tapatalk


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Paulie is a Floyd nuthugger.


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## w;dkm ckeqfjq c (Jul 26, 2012)

Jenna said:


>


that was awesome


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Also don't think Paulie was impressed that Pacquaio battered Hatton in 2 a singular fight after hatton completely outboxed and beat Paulie up with ease.


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## Reppin501 (May 16, 2013)

In fairness to Paulie...a lot of people say that. Right, wrong, or indifferent this isn't an idea exclusive to Paulie.


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## JeffJoiner (Jun 5, 2013)

Paulie's made these comments before and he'll make them again. Lots of speculation about Pac and PED's. It will never be resolved.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

sugarshane_24 said:


> He's with showtime, he is compelled to not say anything positive with those who reside hbo.
> 
> Coupled with bitterness that he missed out a Pac payday, he lost to a Pac sparring partner, and he never even went past midcard status while a non-American became a star.


that's not it. Paulie has been staying very consistent from back in 2009


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

paulie's right. pacquiao's not the monster he used to be. he used to be roided out of his mind.


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

JeffJoiner said:


> Paulie's made these comments before and he'll make them again. Lots of speculation about Pac and PED's. It will never be resolved.


This, I like Paulie but he can get a little emotional and fixed in his positions.

Everything to Pac can and should be attributed to age and wear. But it's so easy to allow results to reinforce your own sentiments. Heck, anyone of us can be guilty of it at times. We think the fight will happen a certain way and if it does we only emphasize the reasons we foresaw it to happen in that way.


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

Lol...pac's worst performance is better than Paulie's best..

That's how good pac is..


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

Fuck Paulie. We know how you feel about Packy.


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## Uncle Rico (May 24, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> that's not it. Paulie has been staying very consistent from back in 2009


Paulie has been anything _but_ consistent with regards to Pac. He said Pac in his opinion would be the GOAT if he beat Cotto, only to then accuse him of PEDs when he battered him. He then said Pac with drug-testing would lose to Bradley, only to be proven wrong twice and refuses to give Pac his dues. I like Paulie, I think he's a cool guy, but he can be insanely bitter when he wants to be, as well as hypocritical.


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## scorpion (Jun 24, 2013)

Jenna said:


>


LOL thats some good shit bro haha.

I haven't looked at Paulie the same since he switched to team Haymon after all that shit he talked.
TBH i think hes a bit butthurt that Cotto and Hatton, two guys that gave him a carreer beating, both got destroyed by Pacman.


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## BoxingJabsBlog (Sep 20, 2013)

Chatty said:


> What fights were drug tested Bradley 1 to Bradley II. You could say he lost 2 rounds to Bradley first time, 1 to Marquez minus the KO round, 0 to Rios and 4 to Bradley. Even before that he shut out Mosley, Margo and Clottey in a row.
> 
> The only person who has looked good against Pacquaio in about 7/8 years is Marquez.
> 
> ...


in the 4th fight vs marquez, you're saying he only lost 1 round?


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Uncle Rico said:


> Paulie has been anything _but_ consistent with regards to Pac. He said Pac in his opinion would be the GOAT if he beat Cotto, only to then accuse him of PEDs when he battered him. He then said Pac with drug-testing would lose to Bradley, only to be proven wrong twice and refuses to give Pac his dues. I like Paulie, I think he's a cool guy, but he can be insanely bitter when he wants to be, as well as hypocritical.


well consistent may not be the best word to use, but his affilation with Showtime isn't the root of his comments and feelings toward Pac


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> paulie's right. pacquiao's not the monster he used to be. he used to be roided out of his mind.


He's not the monster he used to be because he's not 29 years old anymore . That's what happens with age and wear & tear. If anything pac has shown a steady natural decline as he's gotten older not like someone who would be juicing. He was already showing signs when he foguht Margo and Mosley.

I'm curious if Paulie has ever taken extra drug testing himself since hes such a cheerleader for it?


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## bald_head_slick (May 23, 2013)

Truth hurts. :deal


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> He's not the monster he used to be because he's not 29 years old anymore . That's what happens with age and wear & tear. If anything pac has shown a steady natural decline as he's gotten older not like someone who would be juicing. He was already showing signs when he foguht Margo and Mosley.
> 
> I'm curious if Paulie has ever taken extra drug testing himself since hes such a cheerleader for it?


That so-called natural decline never occurred. His opponents just got bigger, and he still managed to beat the fuck out of them. We're talking severe beatings. Did you see Margarito's face after their fight? The shit was horrific. Who else had ever hurt him like that? I swear to god, I dont understand how people can be so naive. Why in the world do you think he refused unlimited drug testing? Seriously, why? Pride? Because he refused to be bullied by Floyd? He was juicing, buddy, and he had some of the best stuff in the world.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

He didn't knock down or knock out Bradley because Tim's one of the toughest motherfuckers in the sport. The same goes for Marquez. As a matter of fact, if Marquez hadn't knocked Pacquiao out, he would've gotten stopped himself. Pacquiao looked retarded strong in that fight. That's the best version I've ever seen of him.


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## IsaL (Jun 5, 2013)

Paulie isn't the only pro fighter or boxing affiliate that feels that way. Many fans of "boxing" also feel this way.

If Freddie Roach "suspects" Ariza was pumping roids into Pacquiao, surely there is something smoking there. Anyone who says otherwise is a useless turd.


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

IsaL said:


> If Freddie Roach "suspects" Ariza was pumping roids into Pacquiao, surely there is something smoking there. Anyone who says otherwise is a useless turd.


Or roach is just covering his ass incase something does come up in the future about packy


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> That so-called natural decline never occurred. His opponents just got bigger, and he still managed to beat the fuck out of them. We're talking severe beatings. Did you see Margarito's face after their fight? The shit was horrific. Who else had ever hurt him like that? I swear to god, I dont understand how people can be so naive. Why in the world do you think he refused unlimited drug testing? Seriously, why? Pride? Because he refused to be bullied by Floyd? He was juicing, buddy, and he had some of the best stuff in the world.


I think it's a bit naive to think that juicing is magical enough to transform someone's boxing ability so dramatically.

By the way, Mosley hurt him worse.


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## hermit (Jun 4, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> That so-called natural decline never occurred. His opponents just got bigger, and he still managed to beat the fuck out of them. We're talking severe beatings. Did you see Margarito's face after their fight? The shit was horrific. Who else had ever hurt him like that? I swear to god, I dont understand how people can be so naive. Why in the world do you think he refused unlimited drug testing? Seriously, why? Pride? Because he refused to be bullied by Floyd? He was juicing, buddy, and he had some of the best stuff in the world.


Because he didn't want to get blood drawn too close to the fight? Remember, it was only blood testing that he wanted stopped three weeks prior to the fight and said he would give blood immediately after. Urine samples were ANYTIME/ANY AMOUNT.


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## hermit (Jun 4, 2013)

I speculated when Pac became a part time boxer we wouldn't see the same guy in the ring. He is older and fighting bigger guys so he isn't the same monster? Paulie is a whining cunt.


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## saul_ir34 (Jun 8, 2013)

DobyZhee said:


> Lol...pac's worst performance is better than Paulie's best..
> 
> That's how good pac is..


Getting stopped both times is better than any win in Paulies career?


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Uncle Rico said:


> Paulie has been anything _but_ consistent with regards to Pac. He said Pac in his opinion would be the GOAT if he beat Cotto, only to then accuse him of PEDs when he battered him. He then said Pac with drug-testing would lose to Bradley, only to be proven wrong twice and refuses to give Pac his dues. I like Paulie, I think he's a cool guy, but he can be insanely bitter when he wants to be, as well as hypocritical.


This is a fair point. But he's a Sicilian blood so I get it...


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Bogotazo said:


> I think it's a bit naive to think that juicing is magical enough to transform someone's boxing ability so dramatically.
> 
> By the way, Mosley hurt him worse.


Eh, in their defense it's not the boxing ability they're talking about. It's the impact of his punches. I think they get caught too much in the size of the opponents and overlook the style-advantages. Pac was never hitting the super featherweights as much as he was Margo, Hatton, or even Cotto.


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

saul_ir34 said:


> Getting stopped both times is better than any win in Paulies career?


lol, post sanchez, pre JMM 4..pac was pretty solid in his prime.dummy


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## Uncle Rico (May 24, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> well consistent may not be the best word to use, but his affilation with Showtime isn't the root of his comments and feelings toward Pac


Yep, in that I agree.


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## Uncle Rico (May 24, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> This is a fair point. But he's a Sicilian blood so I get it...


Yeah, he's a really outspoken guy. I always feel bad when I criticise him because I've grown to be a fan of the fighter and person - the sport will benefit so much with his presence and I hope he remains the fan-favorite analyst for decades to come. But I can't agree with some the opinions he holds (Broner fight, Pac, May, Porter, etc)


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## Brnxhands (Jun 11, 2013)

Post that thread where your cryin over a female


mrtony80 said:


> Post the video where I put him in his place on your show.


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## nvs (May 16, 2013)

Damn, Paulie caught feelings and is now feeling some type of way.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

BoxingJabsBlog said:


> in the 4th fight vs marquez, you're saying he only lost 1 round?


In the first 5, yes.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Eh, in their defense it's not the boxing ability they're talking about. It's the impact of his punches. I think they get caught too much in the size of the opponents and overlook the style-advantages. Pac was never hitting the super featherweights as much as he was Margo, Hatton, or even Cotto.


Agreed.


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## mrtony80 (Jun 8, 2013)

Brnxhands said:


> Post that thread where your cryin over a female


Sure.
http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?38946-Heartbroken-again


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

JohnAnthony said:


> he still looked brilliant in both bradley fights.
> 
> you could argue its because he is no longer a full time boxer. he lets himself get very doughie between fights now.


I think there was a decline in his performance beginning with JMM 3. Steroid controversy was at the pinnacle then, as JMM requested OSDT but Manny's team rejected it. JMM would go on to embarrass Manny in that fight and "lose" a close split decision. Perhaps he became a "part-time" fighter, perhaps he discontinued PED's...the world will never know. I personally think the latter (PED discontinuation) was involved in some degree. Manny's volume punching and endurance are the biggest indicators for me. He went from throwing 1000+ punches a fight to the typical ~500-600. He was probably doping like Lance Armstrong - EPO.

Just my 2 cents


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Eh, in their defense it's not the boxing ability they're talking about. It's the impact of his punches. I think they get caught too much in the size of the opponents and overlook the style-advantages. Pac was never hitting the super featherweights as much as he was Margo, Hatton, or even Cotto.


The volume of punching is what was so suspect, but his power also made little sense...Manny had wars with guys at 130 and even 126...then..at 28 years old...he goes through a growth spurt and essentially jumps 3 weight classes (in one calendar year) and retains power, speed, and endurance (and he arguably improved in those areas). That's the part that doesn't make sense.

In comparison, and this is a very loose comparison (due to a complete difference in boxing styles), Mayweather hasn't had any power since 135. At 135 Floyd could actually hurt his opponents, but when he moved up in weight he retained his speed and endurance (things that shouldn't be affected by weight gain assuming continuation of regular training and preparations), but he sacrificed a lot in power. Floyd can't hurt anything but he can keep people honest enough to not be overwhelmed (not the case in his last two fights though). _*After moving up so many weight classes Floyd has no power*_.

JMM is a similar example. JMM moves up in weight - looks like shit against Floyd, looks meh against Bradley, beats another small guy in Provo, and KO's fellow small man Manny. _*After moving up so many weight classes JMM has sacrificed power.*_

Broner is another decent example. Broner is thudding guys at 135 but he jumps two weight classes and he's not even remotely as impressive at 147 as he was at 135 - he could barely hurt the Magic Man. Broner has a warrior's mentality and fought till the end versus Maidana - and Broner DID hurt Maidana at times, but it wasn't enough because Broner didn't properly develop punch resistance for much bigger guys. _*Despite being very young, and potentially able to do so, Broner sacrificed power big time at 147 and displayed a big susceptibility in punching resistance against larger guys.*_

To recap, *only Manny Pacquiao was able to move up as many weight classes as he did while retaining (and arguably improving) his speed, endurance, and power.* It doesn't happen much because it's just not natural, especially not at 28 years old. You don't have to believe me, but you will have a hard time finding anyone in the history of the sport do anything similar to what he did...and I don't mean win X championships in X weight classes. I mean that nobody else seems capable of moving up X weight classes while continuing to possess physical advantages against much larger opponents *as often as Manny did*. DLH, Cotto, Margarito, Clottey, Mosley, etc. all of them were inferior to Manny physically - their punches didn't hurt him much but his punches hurt them lots, Manny's volume greatly exceeded their output, Manny's endurance was better than all of theirs...*this really isn't rocket science.*


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

@bjl12 the biggest thing that gets me was Pacquiao's punch resistance. He was getting hurt all the time at the lower weights. You could legitimately call him chinny at one point.











Yeah you can see he was dehydrated, but how often do we see a fighter move up that many weight classes and his chin improves that much? Guillermo Jones is a good example, but he got busted for steroids :conf


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> I think it's a bit naive to think that juicing is magical enough to transform someone's boxing ability so dramatically.
> 
> By the way, Mosley hurt him worse.


There's a strong link between conditioning and ability. When you start getting tired, you start getting sloppy with your technique. You know that. Pacquiao was as fresh as can be for most of his fights north of 130. Against Morales and Marquez, below 130, you could actually see him get tired. A sustained beating can be worse than a knock out. Dig this: if it weren't for modern medical techniques, Margarito would be blind in one eye. There were also rumors that Margarito hadnt trained properly for that fight. People underestimate the power of peds. They change your life. They transform you. They motivate, they make you stronger, sharper. They enhance you in almost every way imaginable if done right.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> The volume of punching is what was so suspect, but his power also made little sense...Manny had wars with guys at 130 and even 126...then..at 28 years old...he goes through a growth spurt and essentially jumps 3 weight classes (in one calendar year) and retains power, speed, and endurance (and he arguably improved in those areas). That's the part that doesn't make sense.
> 
> In comparison, and this is a very loose comparison (due to a complete difference in boxing styles), Mayweather hasn't had any power since 135. At 135 Floyd could actually hurt his opponents, but when he moved up in weight he retained his speed and endurance (things that shouldn't be affected by weight gain assuming continuation of regular training and preparations), but he sacrificed a lot in power. Floyd can't hurt anything but he can keep people honest enough to not be overwhelmed (not the case in his last two fights though). _*After moving up so many weight classes Floyd has no power*_.
> 
> ...


He never went through a growth spurt, he just stopped draining himself. he was effectively the same size fight night between those weights. His speed never improved either, in fact it was slightly slower than it was down the weights but at the same time he was fighting much slower fighters so his speed seemed improved even though it wasn't.

Pacquaio's power never really improved either, he's hardly stopped anyone up the weights. Oscar retired through embarrassment, Clottey lasted without looking like being stopped. Margo took his punches as did Mosley, Marquez, Bradley and Rios.

Broner doesn't compare because he is a lower level fighter so jumping up weights and losing his size advantage severly effected his performance seen as though he doesn't have great speed, footwork or boxing ability, he throws very sporadically and isn't a high impact fighter. Pacquaio worked up the weights because he was faster, had better footwork, was a better boxer than those at the weight so his skills transfered upwards, same as how FLoyds did and how Marquez's did.

And you say Floyd stopped hurting people, well he Ko'd Hatton and he hurt Cotto int he last round so considering thats the two people Pacquaio stopped then we have a common similarity with them right here.

I'm not saying Pacquaio weren't using but your reasoning is completely wrong here.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> There's a strong link between conditioning and ability. When you start getting tired, you start getting sloppy with your technique. You know that. Pacquiao was as fresh as can be for most of his fights north of 130. Against Morales and Marquez, below 130, you could actually see him get tired. A sustained beating can be worse than a knock out. Dig this: if it weren't for modern medical techniques, Margarito would be blind in one eye. There were also rumors that Margarito hadnt trained properly for that fight. People underestimate the power of peds. They change your life. They transform you. They motivate, they make you stronger, sharper. They enhance you in almost every way imaginable if done right.


Against Morales and Marquez, Pacquiao was cutting a lot of weight and getting into wars in which he took punishment (head and body) and also had to expend mental energy thinking more. He couldn't miss against Margarito. I don't see why someone with his speed and natural power needs PED's to fuck someone with an unsophisticated defense up. It's certainly possible but I'd be more suspicious if he were knocking welterweights out cold. It hasn't ever happened.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

It boggles my mind how people say Manny has increased his speed and power while moving up. There's no case for that. He stopped Cotto and Oscar on their feet, never dropped Margarito, couldn't stop old Mosley, never dropped Bradley, and knocked Marquez down once when he was off balance. And he was much quicker at the lower weights.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> @*bjl12* the biggest thing that gets me was Pacquiao's punch resistance. He was getting hurt all the time at the lower weights. You could legitimately call him chinny at one point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think its more down to draining. He started young enough where he was outgrowing the weights too fast and then he settled into a weight where he was still probably draining 15-20lbs. If you don't diet down properly then your gonna be weak as piss and considering he was boxing for an amateur promotion with far from world level coaches then he wont have been privy to a lot of this knowledge to do it properly.

Salido was another who was chinny as fuck under similar circumstances - theres more but I can't be arsed to think of them.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> I think its more down to draining. He started young enough where he was outgrowing the weights too fast and then he settled into a weight where he was still probably draining 15-20lbs. If you don't diet down properly then your gonna be weak as piss and considering he was boxing for an amateur promotion with far from world level coaches then he wont have been privy to a lot of this knowledge to do it properly.
> 
> Salido was another who was chinny as fuck under similar circumstances - theres more but I can't be arsed to think of them.


Salido is still a little chinny, but he recovers well.

and I buy the draining reasoning for Manny since he'd cut like 17 pounds at 130, but still. The difference between the power of Morales at 130 and Margartio at 150 should be significant.

I doubt Chavez Jr's chin would be better at light heavyweight or that Rios could stand up to punchers at middleweight


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Salido is still a little chinny, but he recovers well.
> 
> and I buy the draining reasoning for Manny since he'd cut like 17 pounds at 130, but still. The difference between the power of Morales at 130 and Margartio at 150 should be significant.
> 
> I doubt Chavez Jr's chin would be better at light heavyweight or that Rios could stand up to punchers at middleweight


Yeah but there is also a difference in how he took the punches. Seeing Margo's clubbing punches coming from a mile away lets you prepare better than if you don't see them coming. Sometimes a lesser forced punch can do more damage based on the speed, trajectory and whether or not your colliding with the punch or rolling away. Margo's punches clearly hurt him but at the same time he never landed anything significant to put him in danger of being stopped or felled.

I think he was just fast enough at that weight that he was able to use his advantages against the disadvantages.

If anything he would likely be on EPO for high stamina outputs which allow him to train harder and his body to recover faster, gives him more energy int he fight. i'm not sure there are steroids that give you a boost of punching power or chin because a lot of that is down to technique (power can be added but not to high margins).


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Chatty said:


> Yeah but there is also a difference in how he took the punches. Seeing Margo's clubbing punches coming from a mile away lets you prepare better than if you don't see them coming. Sometimes a lesser forced punch can do more damage based on the speed, trajectory and whether or not your colliding with the punch or rolling away. Margo's punches clearly hurt him but at the same time he never landed anything significant to put him in danger of being stopped or felled.
> 
> I think he was just fast enough at that weight that he was able to use his advantages against the disadvantages.
> 
> If anything he would likely be on EPO for high stamina outputs which allow him to train harder and his body to recover faster, gives him more energy int he fight. i'm not sure there are steroids that give you a boost of punching power or chin because a lot of that is down to technique (power can be added but not to high margins).


Chavez and Rios probably wouldn't because they don't possess a style that allows them to take more punishment. They are slow face forward fighters so they are going to get hit regardless of what weight they fight at. Pacquaio is a speedier fighter who has good movement and is a quick thinker so fighting slower fighters benefits him even though he is at a physical disadvantage. If you get my drift.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Yeah but there is also a difference in how he took the punches. Seeing Margo's clubbing punches coming from a mile away lets you prepare better than if you don't see them coming. Sometimes a lesser forced punch can do more damage based on the speed, trajectory and whether or not your colliding with the punch or rolling away. Margo's punches clearly hurt him but at the same time he never landed anything significant to put him in danger of being stopped or felled.
> 
> I think he was just fast enough at that weight that he was able to use his advantages against the disadvantages.
> 
> If anything he would likely be on EPO for high stamina outputs which allow him to train harder and his body to recover faster, gives him more energy int he fight. i'm not sure there are steroids that give you a boost of punching power or chin because a lot of that is down to technique (power can be added but not to high margins).


that is true for Margarito, but I don't see how he took Cotto's punches the way he did. Manny claims that Cotto and Clottey are the hardest punchers he's faced his whole career. Cotto was connecting clean enough.






I don't really know if Pacquiao was using or not, but I do give huge credit to Alex Ariza.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> that is true for Margarito, but I don't see how he took Cotto's punches the way he did. Manny claims that Cotto and Clottey are the hardest punchers he's faced his whole career. Cotto was connecting clean enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well Cotto is a strong guy who does punch hard but he doesn't really have one punch KO power so unless he catches you with something really clean and at force he probably isn't going to send you reeling. I mean who at world level has he really went out and destroyed? he put Malignaggi down but couldn't finish him and he stopped Judah. Everyone else has pulled out of injury or accumulation.

I aint watched the fight for a while but I don't think Cotto ever caught him with anything huge other than the left hook that burst his ear drum. He landed some nice jabs and body shots but never really got his full power behind a shot and after round 4 he had basically went into survival mode.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Well Cotto is a strong guy who does punch hard but he doesn't really have one punch KO power so unless he catches you with something really clean and at force he probably isn't going to send you reeling. I mean who at world level has he really went out and destroyed? he put Malignaggi down but couldn't finish him and he stopped Judah. Everyone else has pulled out of injury or accumulation.
> 
> I aint watched the fight for a while but I don't think Cotto ever caught him with anything huge other than the left hook that burst his ear drum. He landed some nice jabs and body shots but never really got his full power behind a shot and after round 4 he had basically went into survival mode.


yeah good points. I'm not really accusing Pacquiao of anything, but more of just looking for answers. If Mosley actually came to fight, he could have answered more questions.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> yeah good points. I'm not really accusing Pacquiao of anything, but more of just looking for answers. If Mosley actually came to fight, he could have answered more questions.


Well I personally believe most top boxers are using some form of PED whether it be for recovery, stamina, injury, weight making etc but I think stylistically you get more answers than blaming drugs for the most parts. Maybes one day boxing will get itself together to sort this problem out but under current rules I just don't see it as a possibility - not just testing but because drug firms are so far ahead of commissions and there are ready made excuses with protein shakes and all that bollocks.

Ultimately a fighter is only good as he is technically though and then its how much work they put into themselves at the gym, they can get boosts but generally I dont think any athlete is using HGH or other steroids for mass and power because it will likely slow them down and speed is probably a better asset than power in most cases.

I think with Pacquaio when you look at his career since Morales 1 their is only one person who has been able to compete with him and that was purely a style match for Marquez (even though pacquaio stylistically causes him hell as well). Mosley made him look bad by spoiling but he still won all 12 rounds (if we minus the referees mistake) and bradley had some success being awkward but really I think he has naturally slowed down a little (just like FLoyd, Marquez and pretty much any boxer in their 30s has/does) and people expect him to be able to throw 150 punches a round still.

Also people don't take into account boxing lifespan and Manny has been a pro for nearly 20 year now plus had had 70 amateur fights, 65 fights is a lot for a career these days as well and with a style that isn't made for longevity he was always destined to burn quicker than those with styles that aren't akin to taking punishment and rely on technical skills over physical.

I mean he could have been taking something, probably was but I think the downslide is more to age and burn-out through to having a long boxing life. If you compare to other boxers and see how most ATG's were at 20 years into their career (most don't make 20) or compare fightes with the same amount of championship fights you can get a clearer understanding rather than looking at just age or decline.

Hell even for quick decline check out most ATG's who fought with an aggressive style from a young age and you'll see a trend of burn out time being very quick compared to technical boxers.


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Uncle Rico said:


> Yeah, he's a really outspoken guy. I always feel bad when I criticise him because I've grown to be a fan of the fighter and person - the sport will benefit so much with his presence and I hope he remains the fan-favorite analyst for decades to come. But I can't agree with some the opinions he holds (Broner fight, Pac, May, Porter, etc)


That he thinks he won the Broner fight is almost indefensible. But it at least stuck with the reinforcing message. That this guy is not the heir apparent you think he is. He is not the next Floyd. That at least holds up, but yeah, he didn't win that fight. What did he say about Porter?


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> The volume of punching is what was so suspect, but his power also made little sense...Manny had wars with guys at 130 and even 126...then..at 28 years old...he goes through a growth spurt and essentially jumps 3 weight classes (in one calendar year) and retains power, speed, and endurance (and he arguably improved in those areas). That's the part that doesn't make sense.


Pac was actually cutting weight. Look at pics of him in the last Marquez fight he looks gaunt at the weigh-in. Not having to strain to make weight can help enhance ones performance abilities, which can explain the endurance, though I don't see a huge stamina boost like you suggest. He also throw a lot of punches and that's partly why he had more success against Marquez in the 2nd fight than in the 3rd fight (Though, he lost both in my book. The 3rd was way wider).



> In comparison, and this is a very loose comparison (due to a complete difference in boxing styles), Mayweather hasn't had any power since 135. At 135 Floyd could actually hurt his opponents, but when he moved up in weight he retained his speed and endurance (things that shouldn't be affected by weight gain assuming continuation of regular training and preparations), but he sacrificed a lot in power. Floyd can't hurt anything but he can keep people honest enough to not be overwhelmed (not the case in his last two fights though). _*After moving up so many weight classes Floyd has no power*_.


Like you said a very loose comparison. Pac wasn't really one punch stopping guys. He hit Margo in the face with hard punches what felt like a thousand times. Margo had next to no defense for Pac's punches. Cotto got broken down after the second knockdown, which he got caught walking into an uppercut. Hatton ran into the biggest punch Pac has ever setup in his career. Hatton's punch-resistance seem vulnerable from all the weight-cutting and the Mayweather stoppage at that point of his career. How many stoppages did Pac have in his career above JR WW? Only one against Cotto.

The only thing peculiar to me was the knockdown of Mosley. Mosley's iron-chinned and seemed surprised by that shot and Pac's power, although Mosley now says Floyd hits harder. Very odd, indeed.

And let's not denounce Floyd's power completely. He stopped Hatton at WW. He stunned Cotto at 154 with 10z gloves. Yes, Mayweather's not the puncher of Pac but he's not feather-fisted. And Floyd also doesn't take the same kind of chances as Pac. You don't see Floyd unload on a shot the way Pac did against Hatton for example.



> JMM is a similar example. JMM moves up in weight - looks like shit against Floyd, looks meh against Bradley, beats another small guy in Provo, and KO's fellow small man Manny. _*After moving up so many weight classes JMM has sacrificed power.*_


He looked fine against Bradley. That fight was not the ideal style for Marquez I was almost certain Bradley would win and it was a respectably contested fight.

Didn't know JMM beat Provo. You mean Alvarez? Bradley said Marquez had great power so I'm not sure how much power he sacrificed when you get an iron-chinned guy like Bradley praising your power.



> Broner is another decent example. Broner is thudding guys at 135 but he jumps two weight classes and he's not even remotely as impressive at 147 as he was at 135 - he could barely hurt the Magic Man. Broner has a warrior's mentality and fought till the end versus Maidana - and Broner DID hurt Maidana at times, but it wasn't enough because Broner didn't properly develop punch resistance for much bigger guys. _*Despite being very young, and potentially able to do so, Broner sacrificed power big time at 147 and displayed a big susceptibility in punching resistance against larger guys.*_


This is a good example and case. Broner's about the same size as Pac, too. Broner at 135 never really stopped anyone of stature. I do not know if Pac hits harder but I know he is a much faster, sharper puncher and that can hurt you and catch you off guard more easily.


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

I was impressed with the punches Pac took from Cotto at the time, too. But Pac was guard up for a lot of them, and Cotto is a thudding kind of power. It hurts like hell but Pac seemed to prepared for a lot of what was coming. You got to remember that Pac was facing bigger guys but also slower guys. For a guy that relies so heavily on his athleticism he used this as an advantage in a lot of these fights.


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## Uncle Rico (May 24, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> That he thinks he won the Broner fight is almost indefensible. But it at least stuck with the reinforcing message. That this guy is not the heir apparent you think he is. He is not the next Floyd. That at least holds up, but yeah, he didn't win that fight. What did he say about Porter?


Yeah, I think that's what probably amplified his feelings on the decision. All throughout he kept telling everyone that Broner wasn't anywhere near as good as people made out, and he played a partial role in exposing him before Maidana came a long and finished the job.

And with regards to Porter: although he didn't outright say it, he did insinuate the possibility of Porter being on something when he beat him.


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## scorpion (Jun 24, 2013)

A reasonable thread that includes either pac or floyd with logical arguments. You guys just brought a tear to my eye lol. BN24 could learn from y'all.


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

Uncle Rico said:


> Yeah, I think that's what probably amplified his feelings on the decision. All throughout he kept telling everyone that Broner wasn't anywhere near as good as people made out, and he played a partial role in exposing him before Maidana came a long and finished the job.
> 
> And with regards to Porter: although he didn't outright say it, he did insinuate the possibility of Porter being on something when he beat him.


Ah, that seems vaguely familiar now that you mention it. Porter is an interesting fighter in the sense that he had a lot of hype, then he sort of languished and faded to the wayside after not meeting expectations with his performances, and then had this resurgence. I attributed it to him finding his identity as a fighter. He had some talent but he was never the most intuitive or fluid. I think he had an epiphany and realized he was best to use his physicality, strength, stamina, and be a scrapper. But he did sort of come out of nowhere.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> It boggles my mind how people say Manny has increased his speed and power while moving up. There's no case for that. He stopped Cotto and Oscar on their feet, never dropped Margarito, couldn't stop old Mosley, never dropped Bradley, and knocked Marquez down once when he was off balance. And he was much quicker at the lower weights.


Who else had beat Cotto up like that? Or Margarito? I had never seen Shane Mosley fight like that. The man was terrified. You're seeing what you want to see, man. I saw a man with incredible punching power. He wobbled Margarito with punches to the head and to the body. He knocked Mosley down. He knocked Cotto down and the man was seriously hurt. Pacquiao's power above 140 was spectacular, especially considering his size and the division in which he began his career.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Now that he's clean, his power is just decent. I don't recall him hurting Bradley in the rematch. Rios wasn't really bothered by Pacquiao's shots either.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chatty said:


> He never went through a growth spurt, he just stopped draining himself. he was effectively the same size fight night between those weights. His speed never improved either, in fact it was slightly slower than it was down the weights but at the same time he was fighting much slower fighters so his speed seemed improved even though it wasn't.


This is *WRONG*. If Pac was "_draining_" himself to make 126/130 than he must've putting on nothing but water weight on fight day/night...since he came in relatively big for those weight classes (on fight night). For example, Pac typically weighed ~140-145 on fight nights against guys when fighting 126-130. This means that Pac was rehydrating himself with nothing but water weight - lots of guys do it so it's no big deal.










Fast forward one calendar year...why one calendar year? Because Pacman moved up from 130 to fight once at 135 before jumping two more weight classes and meeting DLH at 147. At 28 years old Pac went from draining himself down to 129 pounds and rehydrating to 144...to filling out into a full-fledged welterweight. Okay - so Poochiao put on some damn weight in a hurry - good and bad, right? *WRONG* again guy.

Somehow Pacman was able to retain his speed, endurance, and strength/power while filling out into a welterweight frame (from SFW/JLW...126/130)...all in one calendar year at the age of 28. Hmmm...I don't know if that makes the most sense?? :huh



Chatty said:


> Pacquaio's power never really improved either, he's hardly stopped anyone up the weights. Oscar retired through embarrassment, Clottey lasted without looking like being stopped. Margo took his punches as did Mosley, Marquez, Bradley and Rios.


Mosley fought prime DLH twice, prime Forrest twice, prime Cotto, and a host of other incredible fighters...and he was only knocked down against HUGE Vernon (twice in the same round following a clash of heads/headbutt thing)...yet little assboy Manny Pacman landed a thudding shot that put Mosley on his ass. Clottey was shell-shocked and unwilling to throw virtually any punches for fear of what was coming back his way...and Clottey's a big guy. Margarito looked like he was hit by a train and he's accustom to being hit frequently (with his style and all), but he's never taken damage that was remotely close to what happened versus Pacman. Again - this *doesn't make a whole lot of sense* when put into perspective...

Little Emmanuel...27 years old weighing 129 pounds...rehydrating to 144 pounds...fast forward to when he's 28 and 29 and he's put on almost 20 pounds of pure muscle (at 28 and 29 years old - that's the important part here) while retaining all physical attributes: speed, power, endurance -












Chatty said:


> Broner doesn't compare because he is a lower level fighter so jumping up weights and losing his size advantage severly effected his performance seen as though he doesn't have great speed, footwork or boxing ability, he throws very sporadically and isn't a high impact fighter. Pacquaio worked up the weights because he was faster, had better footwork, was a better boxer than those at the weight so his skills transfered upwards, same as how FLoyds did and how Marquez's did.
> 
> I am not comparing Broner's success (or lack thereof) in moving up weights with anyone else. I am simply demonstrating that Broner failed to jump weights with ease because he relied so much on his power. What became evident, very quickly, was that power doesn't just move up weight classes, nor does punch resistance. And this applies to EVERY fighter (with the exception of our little filipino friend of course).
> 
> ...


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> It boggles my mind how people say Manny has increased his speed and power while moving up. There's no case for that. He stopped Cotto and Oscar on their feet, never dropped Margarito, couldn't stop old Mosley, never dropped Bradley, and knocked Marquez down once when he was off balance. And he was much quicker at the lower weights.


I am not a professional boxer and have never even boxed in the amateurs (I boxed at a local gym for a few months and sparred, but never actually boxed an official/regulated match). However, if moving up in weight were as easy as you seem to believe it is...than everyone would do it. This is why Floyd/Manny moving up as many weight classes as they have, and winning belts, is so ground-breaking. Floyd's case is understandable because he's barely hurting the guys he fights. Pacquiao, on the other hand, frequently leaves his opponents looking like they were the smaller guys in the fights (not so much recently, but during his ascension in 2009-2012 especially). Pacquiao wasn't outclassing guys in the ring (like Floyd) he was hurting them over the entire course of the fight - that's the issue.

There's a reason why weight classes exist. When guys move up in weight they typically sacrifice some aspect of their physical attributes - speed, power, endurance. Those rules don't apply to Manny Pacquiao though, whose apparently better at transcending weight than Henry Armstrong,


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## rjjfan (May 17, 2013)

I'm guessing most of the posters here who think its all steroids have never had to fight while draining yourself on a shitty diet, and then feeling the difference from a nutrient dense 3000+ calorie diet before.


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> Little Emmanuel...27 years old weighing 129 pounds...rehydrating to 144 pounds...fast forward to when he's 28 and 29 and he's put on almost 20 pounds of pure muscle (at 28 and 29 years old - that's the important part here) while retaining all physical attributes: speed, power, endurance -


??

Pac fight night weight from low 144 (122/126/130) to 149 at WW.....
That is 5 pounds. Not sure what is confusing about that.

Not sure where you got 20 pounds.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

PetetheKing said:


> Pac was actually cutting weight. Look at pics of him in the last Marquez fight he looks gaunt at the weigh-in. Not having to strain to make weight can help enhance ones performance abilities, which can explain the endurance, though I don't see a huge stamina boost like you suggest. He also throw a lot of punches and that's partly why he had more success against Marquez in the 2nd fight than in the 3rd fight (Though, he lost both in my book. The 3rd was way wider).


I addressed this in an earlier post - see that.



PetetheKing said:


> Like you said a very loose comparison. Pac wasn't really one punch stopping guys. He hit Margo in the face with hard punches what felt like a thousand times. Margo had next to no defense for Pac's punches. Cotto got broken down after the second knockdown, which he got caught walking into an uppercut. Hatton ran into the biggest punch Pac has ever setup in his career. Hatton's punch-resistance seem vulnerable from all the weight-cutting and the Mayweather stoppage at that point of his career. How many stoppages did Pac have in his career above JR WW? Only one against Cotto.


Again, the entire point of the post (introduced by the Magic Man) is to examine the timeline of 2009-2012. There's little interest in JMM3 to present date. We're only looking at how a guy who weighed 129 pounds (after cutting weight) at 27 years old could grow into a full-fledged WW in less than one year...and pummel guys (with speed, power, and endurance) who were significantly larger than himself...significantly larger.



PetetheKing said:


> The only thing peculiar to me was the knockdown of Mosley. Mosley's iron-chinned and seemed surprised by that shot and Pac's power, although Mosley now says Floyd hits harder. Very odd, indeed


Mosley has essentially never been KD'd in his entire career (save for Vernon Forrest thing where it is even debatable if those should be KD's b/c of the cut/headbutt) and he's fought some big fucks man. Little assboy Manny somehow had an answer for that too :huh At a certain point common sense starts to take over.



PetetheKing said:


> And let's not denounce Floyd's power completely. He stopped Hatton at WW. He stunned Cotto at 154 with 10z gloves. Yes, Mayweather's not the puncher of Pac but he's not feather-fisted. And Floyd also doesn't take the same kind of chances as Pac. You don't see Floyd unload on a shot the way Pac did against Hatton for example.


I addressed this already. Floyd stopping Hatton is not even remotely similar to Manny's performance against Hatton/DLH/Cotto/Margarito/Clottey/Mosley.



PetetheKing said:


> He looked fine against Bradley. That fight was not the ideal style for Marquez I was almost certain Bradley would win and it was a respectably contested fight.


Bradley can say whatever he wants, but the fight speaks for itself. JMM only looked powerful against other small men (Pac/Alvarado) and Bradley is even a blown-up JWW, but JMM never troubled Bradley powerwise (and Bradley has been hurt before - notably against fellow blown-up JWW Provo).



PetetheKing said:


> Didn't know JMM beat Provo. You mean Alvarez? Bradley said Marquez had great power so I'm not sure how much power he sacrificed when you get an iron-chinned guy like Bradley praising your power.


I meant Alvarado. Bradley goes life and death with Provo (a JWW) and yet Bradley has little-moderate trouble dealing with Pac's power. Something is different about current Pacquiao and that's not even debatable.



PetetheKing said:


> This is a good example and case. Broner's about the same size as Pac, too. Broner at 135 never really stopped anyone of stature. I do not know if Pac hits harder but I know he is a much faster, sharper puncher and that can hurt you and catch you off guard more easily.


The point was about how susceptible people are to moving up in weight classes, not about Broner specifically. Why is it that everyone else is subject to the norms of weight classes but this little Filipino can just magically turn 28 and put on 20 pounds of muscle while retaining full speed, power, endurance, and a great chin with awesome punch resistance...

Guys high on Pac need to ask themselves these questions objectively at some point, seriously


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

chibelle said:


> ??
> 
> Pac fight night weight from low 144 (122/126/130) to 149 at WW.....
> That is 5 pounds. Not sure what is confusing about that.
> ...


Have you been to high school? He weighed 129 - his real weight - than he puts on 15 pounds of, essentially, WATER WEIGHT. WATER WEIGHT is not the same as lean weight, which is what he was walking around with in his WW bouts.

"Not sure what is confusing about that"

The only thing one could argue is that the 149 pounds at WW wasn't "lean weight" but also contained water weight. If that's the case, than how were guys at 126/130 dealing with the kind of speed/power that dominated guys at 147? Again, it just defies very basic logic...This suggests that Manny increased his speed and power when he moved up in weight class...and in order to do that he would have to..._*increase his weight*_ ...Wow, what sense. Such wonder.

And I haven't even touched on the whole "I'm afraid/refuse OSDT" saga which went on for *years*.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> Who else had beat Cotto up like that? Or Margarito? I had never seen Shane Mosley fight like that. The man was terrified. You're seeing what you want to see, man. I saw a man with incredible punching power. He wobbled Margarito with punches to the head and to the body. He knocked Mosley down. He knocked Cotto down and the man was seriously hurt. Pacquiao's power above 140 was spectacular, especially considering his size and the division in which he began his career.


So because nobody else has done it, PED's? Poor standard.

When did he wobble Margarito? He caught him with a good body shot he didn't see, but I never saw him wobbled from a head shot. Cotto walked straight into a Pac uppercut. Spectacular? When he's only stopped guys on their feet at welter? That's not what I'd call spectacular. Huge exaggeration. I think you're the one reading into things.


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> I am not a professional boxer and have never even boxed in the amateurs (I boxed at a local gym for a few months and sparred, but never actually boxed an official/regulated match). However, if moving up in weight were as easy as you seem to believe it is...than everyone would do it. This is why Floyd/Manny moving up as many weight classes as they have, and winning belts, is so ground-breaking. Floyd's case is understandable because he's barely hurting the guys he fights. Pacquiao, on the other hand, frequently leaves his opponents looking like they were the smaller guys in the fights (not so much recently, but during his ascension in 2009-2012 especially). Pacquiao wasn't outclassing guys in the ring (like Floyd) he was hurting them over the entire course of the fight - that's the issue.
> 
> There's a reason why weight classes exist. When guys move up in weight they typically sacrifice some aspect of their physical attributes - speed, power, endurance. Those rules don't apply to Manny Pacquiao though, whose apparently better at transcending weight than Henry Armstrong,


It's not easy, but it doesn't mean PED's are the answer.

In fact, when introducing my roommate to boxing, showing him most of the relevant fights of the last 10 years or so, I mentioned and upcoming bout and mentioned a size advantage. His response was "I have yet to see the much bigger man win a fight". Like Flea has said, most of the best fighters of this era aren't big weight cutters. Pacquiao's speed and mobility and match-making have allowed him to do some impressive things. He wasn't just hurting them with every punch, he was outboxing them. He turned Cotto all night. But while PED's may be at play, I don't for a second think they're the immediate answer. Pacquiao CERTAINLY has lost some of his attributes. He's CLEARLY not as heavy handed. He's CLEARLY not as fast. I don't see how anyone can deny that.


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> Have you been to high school? He weighed 129 - his real weight - than he puts on 15 pounds of, essentially, WATER WEIGHT. WATER WEIGHT is not the same as lean weight, which is what he was walking around with in his WW bouts.
> 
> "Not sure what is confusing about that"
> 
> ...


High school?

You are looking at this ass backwards. That is like asking how where people at 140 able to withstand Cotto when he KO'd Martinez. Is Cotto on PEDs now?

Pac was DRAINING himself at 126/130/etc.. That is why he was actually has less power. At WW, he loses 3-4 pounds of water weights instead of 5-7 pounds of muscle, dehydrating at weigh in then re-hydrating himself back to 144. 5-7 pounds of muscle gone for that fight. At WW, he retains that muscle. This is why I find it hilarious people excusing Morales was drained in the second fight when Pac was probably as dry if not more than Morales during their 2 fights.

Meet skeletor (Pac vs JMM II)


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## PetetheKing (Aug 5, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> Bradley can say whatever he wants, but the fight speaks for itself. JMM only looked powerful against other small men (Pac/Alvarado) and Bradley is even a blown-up JWW, but JMM never troubled Bradley powerwise (and Bradley has been hurt before - notably against fellow blown-up JWW Provo).


1+1 /= 2

Seriously, Bradley doesn't put himself in position to get hit the way Pac and Alvarado do. Alvarado has almost no defense in comparison to Bradley. Alvarado is also bigger than Bradley...

Your analysis is coming off little reductive IMO. Triangle theory doesn't work in boxing. It's too simplistic.



> I meant Alvarado. Bradley goes life and death with Provo (a JWW) and yet Bradley has little-moderate trouble dealing with Pac's power. Something is different about current Pacquiao and that's not even debatable.


Provo is a bigger puncher, even Roach admits such. Pac is a sharper, faster puncher. Shot for shot Provo should do more damage assuming he lands cleanly enough. Bradley fought stupidly against Provo he not only got tagged cleanly but got tagged without seeing it coming. Pac did made Bradley feel his power but the consciousness in his approach was starkly different in these fights.



> Guys high on Pac need to ask themselves these questions objectively at some point, seriously


For whatever it's worth, I don't dismiss the possibility. Same applies to Marquez. Also, Floyd, Bradley, and pretty much every other top boxer.


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## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

I like and respect Paulie but his contradictions have become quite annoying don't get me wrong all fighters contradict themselves at some point but he has contradicted himself on like seven issues.


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## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

@Bogotazo
I'm not able to post here on my PC for some reason, I'm able to log in but not able to create post's


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## Bogotazo (May 17, 2013)

Blanco said:


> @Bogotazo
> I'm not able to post here on my PC for some reason, I'm able to log in but not able to create post's


You just posted a post just now. That's how we're talking. You mean create a thread?


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## Blanco (Aug 29, 2012)

Blanco said:


> @Bogotazo
> I'm not able to post here on my PC for some reason, I'm able to log in but not able to create post's


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## tezel8764 (May 16, 2013)

PACMAN!


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## gander tasco (Jun 23, 2013)

Bogotazo said:


> So because nobody else has done it, PED's? Poor standard.
> 
> When did he wobble Margarito? He caught him with a good body shot he didn't see, but I never saw him wobbled from a head shot. Cotto walked straight into a Pac uppercut. Spectacular? When he's only stopped guys on their feet at welter? That's not what I'd call spectacular. Huge exaggeration. I think you're the one reading into things.


Pac did wobble Margo with a counter right hook (late in the fight after he had beaten the snot out of him). But yeah, this idea that Pac had some superhuman power is a misnomer. I'd say at 140 he would have some serious power, as he showed against Hatton. At 147 he has a very good power, but he's not a one punch knockout guy.

What he did against Cotto, Margo, etc was pure boxing clinic / beatdowns. They were hit with hundreds of punches. Cotto got dropped a couple times with punches he didn't see coming, which Pacquiao excels at and Bj12 doesn't understand. Bj12 says Pac didn't outclass these guys, only beat them up (w/e that means), shows a lot of ignorance there.

BJ your failing to grasp a simple concept , Pac was draining himself before he moved to WW but he wasn't just cutting water he was cutting muscle too. When he moved up to 147 he was filled out completely at the weight. Look at his weigh-ins and fight night weights, they are usually only a couple pounds apart. He's also gotten older. When people get older, they tend to fill out more.

Does this look like steroids?



















These are both at 147. Oh, and Floyd carried up his speed pretty well too. He also had Cotto hurt, knocked down JMM, probably hurt a few other guys too. Is your answer ped's here too?



chibelle said:


> High school?
> 
> You are looking at this ass backwards. That is like asking how where people at 140 able to withstand Cotto when he KO'd Martinez. Is Cotto on PEDs now?


^ :deal

Not everything is a conspiracy BJ.


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## Bjj_Boxer (Jun 17, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> Have you been to high school? He weighed 129 - his real weight - than he puts on 15 pounds of, essentially, WATER WEIGHT. WATER WEIGHT is not the same as lean weight, which is what he was walking around with in his WW bouts.
> 
> "Not sure what is confusing about that"
> 
> ...


You do realize that his weigh in weight of 129 lbs is not his "real weight" but his drained weight? If that was his real weight then he wouldn't "re-hydrate" 15-20 lbs. Did you go to kindergarten?


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## uraharakisuke (May 16, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> Who else had beat Cotto up like that? Or Margarito? I had never seen Shane Mosley fight like that. The man was terrified. You're seeing what you want to see, man. I saw a man with incredible punching power. He wobbled Margarito with punches to the head and to the body. He knocked Mosley down. He knocked Cotto down and the man was seriously hurt. Pacquiao's power above 140 was spectacular, especially considering his size and the division in which he began his career.


What nonsense. Your bias is astounding and your logic retarded.
In this thread I've read that Pac's taken EPO for stamina, steroids for super punching strength and also cheerios for punch resistance all with zero evidence and backed by faulty reasoning.
Mosley was shot. That was obvious.
Marg was a sitting duck all night and a result of Arum's genius matchmaking to make Pac look good. But Pac only beat him 'cos he went in the hyperbolic time chamber beforehand. Y'know/
Cotto was thoroughly outboxed.
Bradley wasn't hurt because why should he be? He wasn't caught with anything to the extent Cotto or Hatton was and has a solid chin and skills.

Some of you morons have actually seem to have bought into the A-Side meth bollocks :lol:.
Listen Manny may have been on EPO or such like at some point but there is no tangible proof whatsoever and it's just as likely his contemporaries are/were doping too. This thread is half full of nonsensical arguments. It's as if you've already convinced yourself of the guilt and now trying to skew any and every piece of information to suit your arguments even when in a great deal of cases there is a more probable explanation.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> Does this look like steroids?


:lol: there's barely any difference


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## scorpion (Jun 24, 2013)

I dont get why some fighters like JMM and Pac get so much shit for pretty much baseless acusations of steriods yet some fighters like Mosley, Vargas, Jones, Toney etc guys who have been caught dont seem to suffer the consequences of it at all.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> This is *WRONG*. If Pac was "_draining_" himself to make 126/130 than he must've putting on nothing but water weight on fight day/night...since he came in relatively big for those weight classes (on fight night). For example, Pac typically weighed ~140-145 on fight nights against guys when fighting 126-130. This means that Pac was rehydrating himself with nothing but water weight - lots of guys do it so it's no big deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you understand how draining works - obviously not. What they do is they get down to the weight they can and then they dehydrate themselves to lose as much water as possible over a time period because water weight is easier to lose at that point (basically cause or else you'll be burning muscle) - most of that weight is lost quickly over a couple of days.

They then weigh in at whatever and start rehydrating themselves which means they can boost back up 20+ pounds in a single day. You've already looked at the weights and saw his fight night weight is pretty much the same as it was from super-feather to welterweight, the guy has simply stopped the cutting which 1) makes you feel healthier and stronger 2) is your natural weight 3) makes training a lot less strenuous

Now then why drain in the first place? Well because it gives you a size advantage at that weight in which the next day when you come in 20+lbs heavier can be a major factor - of course at this point that isn't really as much a factor cause near all boxers do it anyway so they are all basically draining to fight guys their own size cause they all rehydrate back to normal.

Another factor is, if you come up to your natural weight and stop draining (which your more likely to do in your late 20s/early 30s) when your metabolism (you know how that works right?) slows down, your going into the ring with bigger guys who are draining so they have the physical advantages - which means to succeed you need to have something that can neutralize that and turn it to your advantage - such as superior speed, foot-work, quicker reaction times etc which is exactly what Pacquaio had and which he used to outspeed opponents and bewilder them with a higher output of work, they can't hit him cleanly so effectively can't get their work off as effectively as they can with bigger men (who are rehydrating up to 155/165).

Now as for power. Do you understand how punching works? Punching power isn't just sheer brute force. No, speed, angle of the punch, whether the object in which your hitting has a high colliding force, opponents visibility of the punch. So Pacquaio can hurt people more because they simply do not see the punch coming, are moving into the punch and speed and angles of their punch don't allow their brain to react fast enough to the punches, hence why the body shut Pacquaio down, why Cotto was hurt several times, how Mosley was put down - go watch these cause the angle Mosley got caught on he never saw it at all. Plus we're talking a shot version of Mosley who was stopped by Anthony Mundine not long after - shit Mundine must punch harder than Margarito?

But also that guy in your avatar - yes Alvarez, are you gonna accuse him of being a PED cheat when he eventually moves up to LHW (as he will cause its his natural weight) - I'm betting not because you are simply a nut hugging moron who is bias as fuck.

Oh yeah, Floyd Mayweather started out at 130 pounds yet was able to knock full WW's like Hatton out and buzz Cotto, KO a guy who was a middleweight on the night in Ortiz - He must be on PEDs as well then because its impossible to carry power and speed up that far?????????


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

uraharakisuke said:


> What nonsense. Your bias is astounding and your logic retarded.
> In this thread I've read that Pac's taken EPO for stamina, steroids for super punching strength and also cheerios for punch resistance all with zero evidence and backed by faulty reasoning.
> Mosley was shot. That was obvious.
> Marg was a sitting duck all night and a result of Arum's genius matchmaking to make Pac look good. But Pac only beat him 'cos he went in the hyperbolic time chamber beforehand. Y'know/
> ...


I thought Cotto was winning the fight up until the knock down. He wasn't being thoroughly outboxed. I don't know what fight you were watching. He was trying to exchange with Pacquiao, was caught and hurt, and the dynamic of the fight changed. Don't go acting as if Pacquiao put on a masterclass. He had that boy hurt throughout. It's easy to look good against someone once they're hurt. Margarito was used to taking beatings. His fight against Santos comes to mind. Santos was huge, and he didn't hurt Antonio like Pacquiao did. My argument is basically the same as Paulie's: now that we know that Pacquiao's clean, he's not the killer he used to be. Now, he really is outclassing dudes with his footwork. He's not beating the life out of them anymore. Obviously, in your mind, there's a perfectly logical explanation as to why he was beating them so severely. Of course, the fact that he rejected unlimited drug testing is a non factor. Why would it be? Be serious.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> I thought Cotto was winning the fight up until the knock down. He wasn't being thoroughly outboxed. I don't what fight you were watching. He was trying to exchange with Pacquiao, was caught and hurt, and the dynamic of the fight changed. Don't go acting as if Pacquiao put on a masterclass. He had that boy hurt throughout. It's easy to look against someone once they're hurt. Margarito was used to taking beating. His fight against Santos comes to mind. Santos was huge, and he didn't hurt Antonio like Pacquiao did. My argument is basically the same as Paulie's: now that we know that Pacquiao's clean, he's not the killer he used to be. Now, he really is outclassing dudes with his footwork. He's not beating the life out of them anymore. Obviously, in your mind, there's a perfectly logical explanantion as to why he was beating them so severely. Of course, the fact that he rejected unlimited drug testing is a non factor. Why would it be? Be serious.


Roninson, Ali, Ezzard, Duran, leonard, Hearns, Chavez etc all didn't look as good later into their careers - how do we know all of those weren't on PED's


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Roninson, Ali, Ezzard, Duran, leonard, Hearns, Chavez etc all didn't look as good later into their careers - how do we know all of those weren't on PED's


Pacquiao looked sensational against Rios and especially Bradley. His footwork was unbelievable, but the power was gone. Legs are usually the first thing to go. Power, the last. Flawed argument.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> Pacquiao looked sensational against Rios and especially Bradley. His footwork was unbelievable, but the power was gone. Legs are usually the first thing to go. Power, the last. Flawed argument.


Hmmm Duran stopped Koing people as often as he did, as did Robinson, as did Ali, as did Ezzard. So not so much flawed. All their power faded as they got older.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Chatty taking scalps in this thread.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Hmmm Duran stopped Koing people as often as he did, as did Robinson, as did Ali, as did Ezzard. So not so much flawed. All their power faded as they got older.


sure, but it didnt happen almost immediately after submitting to osdt. it's too big of a coincidence in my mind. no one can convince me otherwise. and his speed isnt gone, his footwork isnt gone, just the power. i ve heard assholes claim that it was really pacquiao's speed that was hurting dudes, but that's just not true. if it was, khan would be a knockout artist. what really sets pacquiao apart is his power.


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

That Paulie is SO RACIST it just DRIVES ME CRAZY!


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> sure, but it didnt happen almost immediately after submitting to osdt. it's too big of a coincidence in my mind. no one can convince me otherwise. and his speed isnt gone, his footwork isnt gone, just the power. i ve heard asshole claim that it was really pacquiao's speed that was hurting dudes, but that's just not true. if it was, khan would be a knockout artist. what really sets pacquiao apart is his power.


There wasn't any then, they did drop off when they hit their 30s though which is a more common factor and one you can actually see a sequence in since pretty much the dawn of boxing bar a few freaks.

Your just looking for something to justify your claims and not looking at the bigger picture. He had Marquez in major trouble in the fourth fight, he had Mosley on the backfoot for a full fight not wanting to engage, Rios pretty much lets anyone punch him int he face and Bradley near shelled up in the second half of the fight - all those boxers have iron chins and all of them were under drug testing so is his power gone really?

He has slowed down with everything, his speed has definitely slowed, so has his stamina and so has his reflexes - thats why he doesn't catch people with shots that has them reeling as much anymore. If you dont think so then you are daydreaming what happens in fights cause I can watch Marquez 2 and Marquez 3 and almost instantly see a difference.

Also it is speed that makes a difference. Khan's shots are fast but they are also predictable and easy to see coming, he basically throws straight shots in repetition, the times when he has went to the body more (Maidana, Judah) that they didn't see he dropped them hard. You don't understand the difference between speed and technique because that makes all the difference. Sure Pacquaio has more power than Khan but its still there otherwise guys like Rios and Bradley would have walked through him and they didn't, they were very subdued. Marquez did to get to him and he was on his arse, his face was all over, broken nose and on the vere of being stopped.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> I thought Cotto was winning the fight up until the knock down. He wasn't being thoroughly outboxed. I don't know what fight you were watching. He was trying to exchange with Pacquiao, was caught and hurt, and the dynamic of the fight changed. Don't go acting as if Pacquiao put on a masterclass. He had that boy hurt throughout. It's easy to look good against someone once they're hurt. Margarito was used to taking beating. His fight against Santos comes to mind. Santos was huge, and he didn't hurt Antonio like Pacquiao did. My argument is basically the same as Paulie's: now that we know that Pacquiao's clean, he's not the killer he used to be. Now, he really is outclassing dudes with his footwork. He's not beating the life out of them anymore. Obviously, in your mind, there's a perfectly logical explanation as to why he was beating them so severely. Of course, the fact that he rejected unlimited drug testing is a non factor. Why would it be? Be serious.


You thought Cotto was winning up until the KD, the KD was in round 3 :lol: and Pacquaio definitely won the 2nd. So up the fight was even up till the knockdown and because Cotto edged the first round and then lost near every other it wasn't a masterclass - you bias is ridiculous.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> There wasn't any then, they did drop off when they hit their 30s though which is a more common factor and one you can actually see a sequence in since pretty much the dawn of boxing bar a few freaks.
> 
> *Your just looking for something to justify your claims* and not looking at the bigger picture. He had Marquez in major trouble in the fourth fight, he had Mosley on the backfoot for a full fight not wanting to engage, Rios pretty much lets anyone punch him int he face and Bradley near shelled up in the second half of the fight - all those boxers have iron chins and all of them were under drug testing so is his power gone really?
> 
> He has slowed down with everything, his speed has definitely slowed, so has his stamina and so has his reflexes - thats why he doesn't catch people with shots that has them reeling as much anymore. If you dont think so then you are daydreaming what happens in fights cause I can watch Marquez 2 and Marquez 3 and almost instantly see a difference.


what do you think youre doing? he started testing after marquez knocked him out. in every one of his fights since then, his power was all but gone. he hit rios with everything and brandon was fine. bigger stronger men in cotto and margarito were not fine. margarito's face was broken and he was blind in one eye. we're talking concussive power here. how come he couldnt even wobble rios? no broken bones, nothing. my opinion is he was juicing, and i m not budging. who in their right mind would turn down the biggest fight in the history of the sport over drug testing? seriously bro, give it some thought. put yourself in pacquiao's shoes. if i was pacquiao, there's just no way in hell i wouldve turned that fight down. there's just no way. that's when the fight really mattered. he talks about the fans, but he's the one who robbed us of the biggest fight ever. one of the most important fights ever. maybe the most important fight of all time _when it mattered most_. he's slowed down some, he's suffered a knockout loss. floyd's also lost a step. it's just not the same anymore. the only obstacle was the unlimited drug testing. don't you think that's strange? not even a little bit?


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> You thought Cotto was winning up until the KD, the KD was in round 3 :lol: and Pacquaio definitely won the 2nd. So up the fight was even up till the knockdown and because Cotto edged the first round and then lost near every other it wasn't a masterclass - you bias is ridiculous.


that's not what i'd call a masterclass. when your opponent is hurt, cant recover and he's fighting totally on the defensive, i dont consider it a masterclass. a masterlcass is what rigondeaux did against donaire or pacquiao-marquez 3. pacquaio-cotto was just some dude battering another dude who could barely defend himself.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> what do you think youre doing? he started testing after marquez knocked him out. in every one of his fights since then, his power was all but gone. he hit rios with everything and brandon was fine. bigger stronger men in cotto and margarito were not fine. margarito's face was broken and he was blind in one eye. we're talking concussive power here. how come he couldnt even wobble rios? no broken bones, nothing. my opinion is he was juicing, and i m not budging. who in their right mind would turn down the biggest fight in the history of the sport over drug testing? seriously bro, give it some thought. put yourself in pacquiao's shoes. if i was pacquiao, there's just no way in hell i wouldve turned that fight down. there's just no way. that's when the fight really mattered. he talks about the fans, but he's the one who robbed us of the biggest fight ever. one of the most important fights ever. maybe the most important fight of all time _when it mattered most_. he's slowed down some, he's suffered a knockout loss. floyd's also lost a step. it's just not the same anymore. the only obstacle was the unlimited drug testing. don't you think that's strange? not even a little bit?


No mate, I'm telling you facts and backing them up. Your hiding behind false claims and then trying to justify them.

Have I not already backed up claims that boxers of an aggressive nature start to lose their skill sets faster at roughly the same age with a list of boxers it has happened to throughout history?

Have I not shown how draining can have a negative effect and how stylistically a smaller fighter can thrive against bigger fighters if they have a style advantage?

Have I not shown evidence of natural decline because it was there before the Rios fight as many have pointed out with lesser displays against Mosley, Marquez and Bradley.

What evidence have you shown? Zero - you basically making assumptions, assumptions with no shred of intelligence behind them. Their isn't such a thing as magic juice that turns you into Superman you know, do you think with PED's that boxers just take an injection or drink a formula and then they become unstoppable and then as soon as they stop all the magic goes away. They don't work like that.

If you want to look for evidence of decline post Marqez 4 how about look at the fact that he got knocked unconscious and previously there is a list as small as my hand of boxers who have been knocked out that badly and bounced back within a year. Also you have to look at a 20 year pro career that has saw physical and mental wear far higher than most other boxers of this era.

You talk about contracts but you can switch it the otherway. Your looking at it in hindsight, if Pacquaio had beaten Marquez and not been robbed v Bradley then he would be making bigger purses and the fight would be clamoured for as much as it is then. He obviously didn't count on being knocked out. Using hindsight evidence doesn't really work otherwise we could say it was crazy of Price to fight Johnson when there was a huge payday with Fury on the line or it was crazy of Lopez to fight Salido when a huge payday was on the line with Gamboa???? Maybes they were on PEDs as well then - I guess the one thing PEDs doesn't do is allow you to predict the future:lol:


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> that's not what i'd call a masterclass. when your opponent is hurt, cant recover and he's fighting totally on the defensive, i dont consider it a masterclass. a masterlcass is what rigondeaux did against donaire or pacquiao-marquez 3. pacquaio-cotto was just some dude battering another dude who could barely defend himself.


So domianting an opponent isn't a masterclass. You could argue Rigo couldn't get Donaire out or Marquez didn't do enough to even pursuade everyone he won and walked out with with his face a mess cause he took so many shots. The reason Cotto couldn't defend himself was because he was beaten of a superior fighter over 11 rounds, its no difference to those other than Pacquaio won more rounds than Marquez did against himself and that he never let it go to the cards unlike Rigo who even got dropped himself.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

hindsight evidence? That's funny. That's exactly why the fight should been made right then and there, because you never know what's going to happen.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> So domianting an opponent isn't a masterclass. You could argue Rigo couldn't get Donaire out or Marquez didn't do enough to even pursuade everyone he won and walked out with with his face a mess cause he took so many shots. The reason Cotto couldn't defend himself was because he was beaten of a superior fighter over 11 rounds, its no difference to those other than Pacquaio won more rounds than Marquez did against himself and that he never let it go to the cards unlike Rigo who even got dropped himself.


As I said, I don't consider that a masterclass. Cotto was hurt early and couldn't recover. Even now I still think Cotto's the better boxer.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> As I said, I don't consider that a masterclass. Cotto was hurt early and couldn't recover. Even now I still think Cotto's the better boxer.


:roflatsch


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> that's not what i'd call a masterclass. when your opponent is hurt, cant recover and he's fighting totally on the defensive, i dont consider it a masterclass. a masterlcass is what rigondeaux did against donaire or pacquiao-marquez 3. pacquaio-cotto was just some dude battering another dude who could barely defend himself.


Oh, dear. This is a weird post mate. Rigo got sat on his arse!


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> No mate, I'm telling you facts and backing them up. Your hiding behind false claims and then trying to justify them.
> 
> Have I not already backed up claims that boxers of an aggressive nature start to lose their skill sets faster at roughly the same age with a list of boxers it has happened to throughout history?
> 
> ...


how are those facts? what's true for one fighter isnt necessarily true for others. those arent facts, buddy. you say that draining is detrimental to a fighter. i ask you then, why did marquez look so poor when he first moved up? how come jones couldnt hurt ruiz? it's easy to back up one's claims with so-called facts. obviously you've presented facts that suit your agenda. what you need to understand is that your argument, the essence of it, is an opinion. once you've realized and accepted that, we ll be able to converse like real people.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Oh, dear. This is a weird post mate. Rigo got sat on his arse!


And? He still outclassed Donaire. what are you trying to say exactly?


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> And? He still outclassed Donaire. what are you trying to say exactly?


And Pacquiao outclassed Cotto. Big time.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> how are those facts? what's true for one fighter isnt necessarily true for others. those arent facts, buddy. you say that draining is detrimental to a fighter. i ask you then, why did marquez look so poor when he first moved up? how come jones couldnt hurt ruiz? it's easy to back up one's claims with so-called facts. obviously you've presented facts that suit your agenda. what you need to understand is that your argument, the essence of it, is an opinion. once you've realized and accepted that, we ll be able to converse like real people.


Marquez trained for bulk and not speed. When he brought in a better S & C coach he adapted to the weight very well.

Jones moved up higher than Pacquao and Ruiz has a good chin (only people he's been stopped off was when he was caught cold of a heavy hitting Tua and Haye when he was at the end of his career. Jones had also ceased being a knockout artist around 1998 after the Hill fight as he didn't really knock out many top level LHW's so neither would suit my agenda anyway.

What I can show is that age is more proven to be detrimental than PEDs - considering Vitali, Mosley, Jones and most other athletes have continued to have good careers after being caught using drugs, there was no monumental fall off for them so that also backs against your biased theory.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> And Pacquiao outclassed Cotto. Big time.


I wouldnt say that say. He beat him up. He overpowered him. Usually, when someone says, "so and so outclassed someone" that's not what they mean. He battered that boy. He brutalized him.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> I wouldnt say that say. He beat him up. He overpowered him. Usually, when someone says, "so and so outclassed someone" that's not what they mean. He battered that boy. He brutalized him.


Again, youre mistaking outclassing' as only meaning a technical performance.

If you are hitting someone loads, they can't stop you from doing so, and they cant hit you back, you are a CLASS ABOVE them.

I.e, you outclassed them.

'Out classing doesn't mean 'out jabbed and out moved them' exclusively.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Marquez trained for bulk and not speed. When he brought in a better S & C coach he adapted to the weight very well.
> 
> Jones moved up higher than Pacquao and Ruiz has a good chin (only people he's been stopped off was when he was caught cold of a heavy hitting Tua and Haye when he was at the end of his career. Jones had also ceased being a knockout artist around 1998 after the Hill fight as he didn't really knock out many top level LHW's so neither would suit my agenda anyway.
> 
> What I can show is that age is more proven to be detrimental than PEDs - considering Vitali, Mosley, Jones and most other athletes have continued to have good careers after being caught using drugs, there was no monumental fall off for them so that also backs against your biased theory.


Except that when Mosley was back on the juice in Mexico against Cano, he was an animal again. He was beastly. I trust my eyes more than any argument. You can up with counter-arguments all day. So can I. I'm convinced that Pacquiao was juicing. Roach even entertained the possibility in an interview. You know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Again, youre mistaking outclassing' as only meaning a technical performance.
> 
> If you are hitting someone loads, they can't stop you from doing so, and they cant hit you back, you are a CLASS ABOVE them.
> 
> ...


I just reread some of my previous posts. I used the word "masterclass." When someone uses that word in boxing, they usually mean a brilliant _technical _performance. If someone says to me, "he put on a masterclass..." i'm definitely not going to think that someone got the crap beat out of them. That's all I have to say about that.


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## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

Trash Bags said:


> Except that when Mosley was back on the juice in Mexico against Cano, he was an animal again. He was beastly. I trust my eyes more than any argument. You can up with counter-arguments all day. So can I. I'm convinced that Pacquiao was juicing. Roach even entertained the possibility in an interview. You know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...


He was back on the juice and an animal:lol: He looked like shit and scraped a win against a b-level limited fighter

If you trust your eyes and come up with stuff like this then I have some advice for you:


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Chatty said:


> He was back on the juice and an animal:lol: He looked like shit and scraped a win against a b-level limited fighter
> 
> If you trust your eyes and come up with stuff like this then I have some advice for you:


Everyone's entitled to their opinion. He was shredded in that fight. Dude was huge. He was on the juice, no question. Against Maragarito, he was juicing. Against Floyd, he was clean, hence the poor showing. It's so obvious, man. It couldn't be more obvious.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> I wouldnt say that say. He beat him up. He overpowered him. Usually, when someone says, "so and so outclassed someone" that's not what they mean. He battered that boy. He brutalized him.


I sorta agree with this. You were right in saying Cotto was winning until he got knocked down. He was even winning round 3 and then he got knocked down in it. 2 judges even made it a 10-9 round. Cotto's problem is that Pacquiao's punches kept catching him and he eventually went on retreat, but still managed to win round 10 on the backfoot


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> Cotto's problem is that Pacquiao's punches kept catching him


I wholeheartedly agree with this, man. It reminds me a lot of Baer/Schmeling or Robinson/Angott or Chavez/ODLH or Foreman/Frazier II in that regard.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> I sorta agree with this. You were right in saying Cotto was winning until he got knocked down. He was even winning round 3 and then he got knocked down in it. 2 judges even made it a 10-9 round. Cotto's problem is that Pacquiao's punches kept catching him and he eventually went on retreat, but still managed to win round 10 on the backfoot


I think Manny was taking a breather in the 10th. Can't hold that against him considering his workrate beforehand.


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Boxed Ears said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with this, man. It reminds me a lot of Baer/Schmeling or Robinson/Angott or Chavez/ODLH or Foreman/Frazier II in that regard.


:lol:


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Do you understand how draining works - obviously not. What they do is they get down to the weight they can and then they dehydrate themselves to lose as much water as possible over a time period because water weight is easier to lose at that point (basically cause or else you'll be burning muscle) - most of that weight is lost quickly over a couple of days.
> 
> They then weigh in at whatever and start rehydrating themselves which means they can boost back up 20+ pounds in a single day. You've already looked at the weights and saw his fight night weight is pretty much the same as it was from super-feather to welterweight, the guy has simply stopped the cutting which 1) makes you feel healthier and stronger 2) is your natural weight 3) makes training a lot less strenuous
> 
> Now then why drain in the first place? Well because it gives you a size advantage at that weight in which the next day when you come in 20+lbs heavier can be a major factor - of course at this point that isn't really as much a factor cause near all boxers do it anyway so they are all basically draining to fight guys their own size cause they all rehydrate back to normal.


Yes



Chatty said:


> Another factor is, if you come up to your natural weight and stop draining (which your more likely to do in your late 20s/early 30s) when your metabolism (you know how that works right?) slows down, your going into the ring with bigger guys who are draining so they have the physical advantages - which means to succeed you need to have something that can neutralize that and turn it to your advantage - such as superior speed, foot-work, quicker reaction times etc which is exactly what Pacquaio had and which he used to outspeed opponents and bewilder them with a higher output of work, they can't hit him cleanly so effectively can't get their work off as effectively as they can with bigger men (who are rehydrating up to 155/165).


This is where we disagree. Your argument (at least where it differs from what I'm saying) is based off one thing - that Manny Pacquiao had essentially the same body weight and composition from SFW/JLW up to WW and even one attempt at SWW. His lean body mass ~129 pounds produced moderate-good effectiveness in terms of power at SFW/JLW...and that power remained exactly the same (moderate-good) at 147/150...despite the fact that, as you suggest, his lean body muscle remained the same...So we have a go who is as powerful against 126/130 pounders as he is against 147/150 pounders. Hmm...what the fuck is going on?



Chatty said:


> Now as for power. Do you understand how punching works? Punching power isn't just sheer brute force. No, speed, angle of the punch, whether the object in which your hitting has a high colliding force, opponents visibility of the punch. So Pacquaio can hurt people more because they simply do not see the punch coming, are moving into the punch and speed and angles of their punch don't allow their brain to react fast enough to the punches, hence why the body shut Pacquaio down, why Cotto was hurt several times, how Mosley was put down - go watch these cause the angle Mosley got caught on he never saw it at all. Plus we're talking a shot version of Mosley who was stopped by Anthony Mundine not long after - shit Mundine must punch harder than Margarito?


Pacquiao has some technique to his offense, sure, and he's not an awful boxer. He's got an awkward style but he makes it work for him. You're still missing (or ignoring) your glaring inconsistencies. If Manny was the same size - he stopped cutting weight - meaning he still had ~129 pounds of lean weight on his body with about 15 pounds of water weight...than why were his punches so much less effective at 126/130 (he was still a pretty strong guy down there too) and so much more effective at 147/150? At the lower weights Manny was in *W A R S*. Him and the smaller guys (MAB, EM, JMM, etc.) were in outright wars where Manny was getting hurt and he was hurting them, but they all seemed to stand up to Manny's power fairly well. Then, Manny moves up to WW/SWW and his power is at least as good (if not better) against much larger guys who are close to the same skill level. Again...not adding up - basic logic.

This is an important distinguishment because it was something Manny didn't experience at 147/150. For the most part Manny dominated his fights at 147/150. He was faster than his opponents and he appeared to hurt them significantly more than they ever hurt him. How his punch resistance improved that dramatically after ascending three weight classes in one year at the age of 28-29...I don't know. How his power carried from where it was moderately effective at 126/130 and was at least still moderately effective (and I think actually more effective) at 147/150...I don't know. How his endurance didn't suffer through any of this? I don't know. How he could do the things he's doing while retaining a lean physical frame of ~129 pounds (as you imply - since he simply stopped cutting weight)...I sure as hell don't know.

However, I do know that Manny Pacquiao was absolutely petrified of taking a drug tests for YEARS. That I do know. I know that nobody makes an issue out of something like that unless there is an issue - and there was. Pacfuckboy was juicing.



Chatty said:


> But also that guy in your avatar - yes Alvarez, are you gonna accuse him of being a PED cheat when he eventually moves up to LHW (as he will cause its his natural weight) - I'm betting not because you are simply a nut hugging moron who is bias as fuck.


Alvarez is 23 years old. It's normal for boxers to cut weight at 23 years old. Hell it's possible for young guys to successfully move up and down weight classes when they're that young. What's not normal is a guy moving UP THREE weight classes in one calendar year at the age of 28-29. That's not normal. Do you want to know how I know it's not normal? Because it's only happened less than a handful time in the entire history of boxing (at the elite level at least). And this Pinoy, who is sloppy as can be at times, is supposed to just be "good enough" to do it? Fuck no. When skilled fighters (I'll use Floyd for example since he's been tossed around for comparison) move up in weight they rely *more* on skill to win and less on physical ability.

When Manny Pacman moves up in weight, he relies on speed/power/endurance...just like he did at 126/130...it's as if he never went up in weight at all. He stayed right where he was and just maintained all of his athletic ability - despite the fact that he was fighting guys 15-30 pounds heavier. Somehow the guys at 126/130 ate Manny's punches better than the guys at 147 could...and those guys at 147 weren't Joe Blows. Again, this is basic logic.



Chatty said:


> Oh yeah, Floyd Mayweather started out at 130 pounds yet was able to knock *full WW's like Hatton* out and buzz Cotto, KO a guy who was a middleweight on the night in Ortiz - He must be on PEDs as well then because its impossible to carry power and speed up that far?????????


Hatton...? A full-sized WW? He spent the first 45 fights of his career at JWW and lower, then fought Floyd during his 46th fight, but...he was a full-sized WW? Hatton was just an incredible weight-cutter - that's the only thing he did full-sized.










You are right though. Floyd did buzz Cotto, but it was in the 12th round and Cotto was clearly gassed. I think Cotto's conditioning issues had as much to do with him getting stunned as Floyd's power did. More importantly though is that you're trying to change the subject.

Floyd moving up from 130-154 and essentially only hurting Hatton/Cotto during his 5+ year at WW/SWW *does not equate *to Manny jumping three weight classes in one calendar year and battering DLH, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey, Margarito, Mosley, etc. It's not even close - can't compare the two - no relation - no fucking bueno :lama


----------



## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> Yes
> 
> This is where we disagree. Your argument (at least where it differs from what I'm saying) is based off one thing - that Manny Pacquiao had essentially the same body weight and composition from SFW/JLW up to WW and even one attempt at SWW. His lean body mass ~129 pounds produced moderate-good effectiveness in terms of power at SFW/JLW...and that power remained exactly the same (moderate-good) at 147/150...despite the fact that, as you suggest, his lean body muscle remained the same...So we have a go who is as powerful against 126/130 pounders as he is against 147/150 pounders. Hmm...what the fuck is going on?
> 
> ...


End thread. This dude killed it.


----------



## Chatty (Jun 6, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> Yes
> 
> This is where we disagree. Your argument (at least where it differs from what I'm saying) is based off one thing - that Manny Pacquiao had essentially the same body weight and composition from SFW/JLW up to WW and even one attempt at SWW. His lean body mass ~129 pounds produced moderate-good effectiveness in terms of power at SFW/JLW...and that power remained exactly the same (moderate-good) at 147/150...despite the fact that, as you suggest, his lean body muscle remained the same...So we have a go who is as powerful against 126/130 pounders as he is against 147/150 pounders. Hmm...what the fuck is going on?
> 
> Pacquiao has some technique to his offense, sure, and he's not an awful boxer. He's got an awkward style but he makes it work for him. You're still missing (or ignoring) your glaring inconsistencies. If Manny was the same size - he stopped cutting weight - meaning he still had ~129 pounds of lean weight on his body with about 15 pounds of water weight...than why were his punches so much less effective at 126/130 (he was still a pretty strong guy down there too) and so much more effective at 147/150? At the lower weights Manny was in *W A R S*. Him and the smaller guys (MAB, EM, JMM, etc.) were in outright wars where Manny was getting hurt and he was hurting them, but they all seemed to stand up to Manny's power fairly well. Then, Manny moves up to WW/SWW and his power is at least as good (if not better) against much larger guys who are close to the same skill level. Again...not adding up - basic logic.


Firstly, he wasn't the same size because he had burned too much at 130 so when he wasn't cutting 15lbs he is going to be stronger, fitter, faster and more powerful at the higher weight. Theres a point when you drain where you go too far and your performance suffers for it, it doesn't matter if you put the same amount of weight back on, you've already did the damage and the end of his SMW reign was the tipping point for cutting. Again I'll use Alvarez, he looked like shit against Floyd (mostly due to FLoyd) but also he looked lackadaisical then the next fight he comes in his heaviest and he looks stronger, faster and speedier against Angulo. Now of course a lot of that is down to Angulo being sub par but not all of it, the weight helps - or he could have been on PEDs I suppose?

Well one glaring inconsistency your missing out is that Barrera, Morales and Marquez are at least a level better than Clottey, Margarito and the versions of Mosley and Oscar he fought. I would say all were fundamentally a fair bit better than Cotto as well - now all these guys are flat footed, not particularly fast (and dont be looking at prime Shane and using that as he was done) and not as good boxers so Pacquaio would have way more trouble with these guys than with the bigger guys and to say he never really troubled them - he stopped Barrera and Morales twice and had Marquez down 4 times, Manny was a better and more vicious fighter down the weights, his move north was past prime already.



> This is an important distinguishment because it was something Manny didn't experience at 147/150. For the most part Manny dominated his fights at 147/150. He was faster than his opponents and he appeared to hurt them significantly more than they ever hurt him. How his punch resistance improved that dramatically after ascending three weight classes in one year at the age of 28-29...I don't know. How his power carried from where it was moderately effective at 126/130 and was at least still moderately effective (and I think actually more effective) at 147/150...I don't know. How his endurance didn't suffer through any of this? I don't know. How he could do the things he's doing while retaining a lean physical frame of ~129 pounds (as you imply - since he simply stopped cutting weight)...I sure as hell don't know.


For one hardly getting hit helps a fair bit when it comes to not getting hurt and he hardly got hit of any of these guys. Cotto had some success with the jab and a few hooks but really only landed one left hook, which burst his ear drum and you could see hurt him. Margarito landed fuck all but that big body shot which again did hurt him. Clottey landed some nice uppercuts which hurt him but ultimately decided to shell up and not throw caution tot he wind so we didn't find out how much he could do, did Mosley, Oscar and Hatton even land a meaningful punch between them - I don't think they did. Bradley can't punch for shit and buzzed him, Marquez Ko'd him and Rios landed some shots you can see he was uncomfortable with so where you coming up with this couldn't be hurt nonesense. I guess Manny should have stood there and let them KO him to prove his chin was the same - fucking hell man.



> However, I do know that Manny Pacquiao was absolutely petrified of taking a drug tests for YEARS. That I do know. I know that nobody makes an issue out of something like that unless there is an issue - and there was. Pacfuckboy was juicing.


Hmmm FLoyd refused to take all year testing, shit theres an issue - must be on PED's. How come every Saul fight isn't ODT, must be on PED's, how come the majority of top boxers aren't taking proper tests or refuse to (and I mean real Olympic ones - not the half arsed ones Floyd uses)????? There all as suspicious as each other on that account.



> Alvarez is 23 years old. It's normal for boxers to cut weight at 23 years old. Hell it's possible for young guys to successfully move up and down weight classes when they're that young. What's not normal is a guy moving UP THREE weight classes in one calendar year at the age of 28-29. That's not normal. Do you want to know how I know it's not normal? Because it's only happened less than a handful time in the entire history of boxing (at the elite level at least). And this Pinoy, who is sloppy as can be at times, is supposed to just be "good enough" to do it? Fuck no. When skilled fighters (I'll use Floyd for example since he's been tossed around for comparison) move up in weight they rely *more* on skill to win and less on physical ability.


Alvarez is sloppy as fuck and has relied fully on his power over skill (cause he aint very skilled technically) so your point is. Manny is in the top five to ten boxers today still (technical wise), you don't beat the shit out of guys he has without technical ability and its pretty clear to see, he comprehensively outboxed Bradley a few short months ago.



> When Manny Pacman moves up in weight, he relies on speed/power/endurance...just like he did at 126/130...it's as if he never went up in weight at all. He stayed right where he was and just maintained all of his athletic ability - despite the fact that he was fighting guys 15-30 pounds heavier. Somehow the guys at 126/130 ate Manny's punches better than the guys at 147 could...and those guys at 147 weren't Joe Blows. Again, this is basic logic.


Again you aint taking into account that his competition down the weights was far better than up the weights. I can beat the shit out of guys 30 pound heavier than me but bring in someone smaller than me who can fight better then I'll get whupped. Weight doesn't effect fights half as much as some make out.



> Hatton...? A full-sized WW? He spent the first 45 fights of his career at JWW and lower, then fought Floyd during his 46th fight, but...he was a full-sized WW? Hatton was just an incredible weight-cutter - that's the only thing he did full-sized.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hatton was a junior welter but tbh there isn't much difference between him and FLoyd, his size meant fuck all, it was skill-set that beat him and Hatton just wasn;t near as skilled as Floyd or Manny. He could have been a junior-middleweight and still got whupped.

And of course you can't compare them, they are completely different fighters. How many times has Floyd even tried to KO someone at WW? Twice and he succeeded both times, FLoyd would rather box his way to safety with less risk, he aint gonna look as powerful as someone going for the KO. His power aint much different IMO, he just doesn't have a style in whichyou can tell as much.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Boxed Ears said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with this, man. It reminds me a lot of Baer/Schmeling or Robinson/Angott or Chavez/ODLH or Foreman/Frazier II in that regard.


:lol: should have phrased that better, but I hope the point came across.


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## Boxed Ears (Jun 13, 2012)

bballchump11 said:


> :lol: should have phrased that better, but I hope the point came across.


Nah, you know what you're doing, Ball. Think about it. You can't improve on a line that no one could possibly disprove. :hey


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

Boxed Ears said:


> Nah, you know what you're doing, Ball. Think about it. You can't improve on a line that no one could possibly disprove. :hey


:lol: that's very true


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> wall of text


Let me summarize what you said....

What ever Pac did is obvious evidence of PEDs. If ANY boxer does the same shit, then I have a reasonable excuses for those and not about PEDs.

JMM and EM are not smaller than Pac.
Hatton frame and walking weight wise is like a fucking heavy weight.
Cotto is heavily suspect based on your line of reason as well as several top boxers. And Cotto got schooled versus Pac. Pac adjusted to his jab and right hand while Cotto could not adjust to his lead/counter left and rights.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

chibelle said:


> Let me summarize what you said....
> 
> What ever Pac did is obvious evidence of PEDs. If ANY boxer does the same shit, then I have a reasonable excuses for those and not about PEDs.
> 
> ...


Do you think Marquez was on peds when he knocked Pacquiao out?


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## chibelle (Jun 5, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> Do you think Marquez was on peds when he knocked Pacquiao out?


And?
Even if I did I have never undermined JMM's accomplishments. That KO would have happened even if JMM was not using supposed PEDs. I understand boxing enough that Pac's decision to leap forward and JMM's skill to understand Pac's style like no other fighter would have been similar in results. Maybe Pac would have stayed awake but he would still not beat the 10 count. Still would have been KTFO 6.

What about Roy Jones, Erik Morales, Mosley, etc.? All these fighters were CAUGHT hardcore using illegal drugs yet they are praised. No one ever said, RJJ's beating of Ruiz is probably because of PEDs. In fact it is the reverse, people are claiming he is the best they have ever seen.

Erik Morales should have never been competitive with MAB because he is nothing but a PED user. Mosley is not really one of the best fighter of his generation since he is an admitted PED user. No one says these two things. Only Pac is getting undermined yet he has never been caught and has probably took more tests at this point than RJJ, EM and Mosley combined.

I can't prove JMM use PEDs. As much as suspect him I don't have proof. I don't undermine his skills and dedication to the sport.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Firstly, he wasn't the same size because he had burned too much at 130 so when he wasn't cutting 15lbs he is going to be stronger, fitter, faster and more powerful at the higher weight. Theres a point when you drain where you go too far and your performance suffers for it, it doesn't matter if you put the same amount of weight back on, you've already did the damage and the end of his SMW reign was the tipping point for cutting. Again I'll use Alvarez, he looked like shit against Floyd (mostly due to FLoyd) but also he looked lackadaisical then the next fight he comes in his heaviest and he looks stronger, faster and speedier against Angulo. Now of course a lot of that is down to Angulo being sub par but not all of it, the weight helps - or he could have been on PEDs I suppose?
> 
> Well one glaring inconsistency your missing out is that Barrera, Morales and Marquez are at least a level better than Clottey, Margarito and the versions of Mosley and Oscar he fought. I would say all were fundamentally a fair bit better than Cotto as well - now all these guys are flat footed, not particularly fast (and dont be looking at prime Shane and using that as he was done) and not as good boxers so Pacquaio would have way more trouble with these guys than with the bigger guys and to say he never really troubled them - he stopped Barrera and Morales twice and had Marquez down 4 times, Manny was a better and more vicious fighter down the weights, his move north was past prime already.
> 
> ...


Thank you for continuing to respond to me seriously with intent to respectably debate. Also, I apologize if I ever offended you but I assure you I was only messing around. I do feel pretty fixed in my ways about Pacquiao because of everything that happened and the way he and his camp (Manny himself, Ariza, Roach, Arum, Koncz, etc.) all avoided drug testing for years. It was beyond shady/suspicious (to me) given what was happening in boxing at the time.

At this point though I think neither of us are going to budge and we feel strongly about our own perspectives - nothing wrong with that. Maybe one of us is right, maybe both of us are right (in parts), and maybe neither of us are right. Either way, I resign myself from the debate because I feel like we're just going to travel in circles at this point and I don't want to waste either of our time.

Good debate though mate :cheers much internet respect earned :smile


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

i think PEDS in boxing is more a stamina than power issue


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

bjl12 is....just beating himself up.

How he cannot grasp the 'moved up three weight classes thing' I don't know. I have to put it down to sheer bias and stupidity.


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## Jonnybravo (Jun 4, 2013)

bjl12 go choke on a dick you fucking moron, cant understand a simple point fuck head!


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## TeddyL (Oct 5, 2013)

I don't think it was anything to do with drugs. It was more to do with excellent matchmaking. De-La Hoya and Hatton were ripe for the taking.


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## Wansen (Jun 4, 2013)

mrtony80 said:


> That's the one. :good


Well done sir.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

chibelle said:


> And?
> Even if I did I have never undermined JMM's accomplishments. That KO would have happened even if JMM was not using supposed PEDs. I understand boxing enough that Pac's decision to leap forward and JMM's skill to understand Pac's style like no other fighter would have been similar in results. Maybe Pac would have stayed awake but he would still not beat the 10 count. Still would have been KTFO 6.
> 
> What about Roy Jones, Erik Morales, Mosley, etc.? All these fighters were CAUGHT hardcore using illegal drugs yet they are praised. No one ever said, RJJ's beating of Ruiz is probably because of PEDs. In fact it is the reverse, people are claiming he is the best they have ever seen.
> ...


ok. it's just that some people are convinced he was on them with no proof whatsoever, and then turn around and defend pacquiao. it's ridiculous.


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## bballchump11 (May 17, 2013)

I love this old ass interviews


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

chibelle said:


> Let me summarize what you said....
> 
> What ever Pac did is obvious evidence of PEDs. If ANY boxer does the same shit, then I have a reasonable excuses for those and not about PEDs.
> 
> ...


Cotto had a shit corner and a shit gameplan.


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## bjl12 (Jun 5, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> bjl12 is....just beating himself up.
> 
> How he cannot grasp the 'moved up three weight classes thing' I don't know. I have to put it down to sheer bias and stupidity.





Jonnybravo said:


> bjl12 go choke on a dick you fucking moron, cant understand a simple point fuck head!


You guys are hating for no reason and providing no supportive evidence. During the first Floyd/Pac negotiations...where Pac's team made three demands (weight penalty, gloves, and ring size) and Floyd agreed to all of them. Floyd made one request and Pac rejected it. What's hard to understand?

Dude didn't want to do drug tests. Don't need any other evidence than that.


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## igor_otsky (Jul 24, 2012)

bjl12 said:


> You guys are hating for no reason and providing no supportive evidence. During the first Floyd/Pac negotiations...where Pac's team made three demands (weight penalty, gloves, and *ring size*) and Floyd agreed to all of them. Floyd made one request and Pac rejected it. What's hard to understand?
> 
> Dude didn't want to do drug tests. Don't need any other evidence than that.


Pacquiao requested that the ring will be as wide as the football field so floyd can run as fast as Forrest Gump.


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## TSOL (Dec 15, 2013)

Jonnybravo said:


> bjl12 go choke on a dick you fucking moron, cant understand a simple point fuck head!


i havent kept up with the thread but

:lol:


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## Oli (Jun 6, 2013)

He's absolutely correct.


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## steviebruno (Jun 5, 2013)

Manny Pacquiao tried to negotiate cutoff dates for drug tests. That told me all I needed to know about him.


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## alza1988 (Jun 6, 2013)

Just seen this this morning can't find any threads not sure if it's real or an alr either .
https://www.facebook.com/ModernBoxi...41829.399794730128477/789714247803188/?type=1


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## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

steviebruno said:


> Manny Pacquiao tried to negotiate cutoff dates for drug tests. That told me all I needed to know about him.


And Floyd having a non disclosure agreement written into his contract that he had to fail twice before a positive drug test could be made public doesn't?


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## dyna (Jun 4, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> And Floyd having a non disclosure agreement written into his contract that he had to fail twice before a positive drug test could be made public doesn't?


Seems fair.
A false positive on the first test could tarnish his reputation.

But I bet if Manny wanted the same non-disclosure agreement there would be an outrage, and that's a lot less fair.
So there's clearly some hypocrisy going on.


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## Oli (Jun 6, 2013)

Well it's true isn't it?


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## Them Bones (Jul 13, 2013)

alza1988 said:


> Just seen this this morning can't find any threads not sure if it's real or an alr either .
> https://www.facebook.com/ModernBoxi...41829.399794730128477/789714247803188/?type=1


It isn't real, but it is pretty much accurate to what Paulie thinks.


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## PityTheFool (Jun 4, 2013)

@Bogotazo 
Can you link me to the post that has your breakdown video please?Haven't had time to watch it but will today at some point.


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## Kid Generic Alias (Oct 29, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> And Floyd having a non disclosure agreement written into his contract that he had to fail twice before a positive drug test could be made public doesn't?


----------



## Flea Man (Jun 2, 2012)

Kid Generic Alias said:


>


Not sure of the relevance of this image mate.


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## Kid Generic Alias (Oct 29, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> Not sure of the relevance of this image mate.


Source.


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## OneTime (Nov 10, 2014)

Paulie and everyone knows good and well their usada/vada protocol can easily be beat. 

Even without juicing there are growth hormone releasing peptides and insulin like growth factors which can't be detected through any usada, vada yo momma testing.


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## bald_head_slick (May 23, 2013)

Flea Man said:


> And Floyd having a non disclosure agreement written into his contract that he had to fail twice before a positive drug test could be made public doesn't?


It works that partially way anyway even with the A and B samples. Him strengthening the language upsets you?

Oops.


----------



## Setanta (May 24, 2013)

Jenna said:


>


Major meltdown, there.

Totally fuckin' cuckoo !

Re: his protestation of 'not being jealous'

"Methinks the lady doth protest too loudly."
(Hamlet)


----------



## ElKiller (Jun 14, 2014)

Trash Bags said:


> He didn't knock down or knock out Bradley because Tim's one of the toughest motherfuckers in the sport. The same goes for Marquez.* As a matter of fact, if Marquez hadn't knocked Pacquiao out, he would've gotten stopped himself.* Pacquiao looked retarded strong in that fight. That's the best version I've ever seen of him.


This shit's gotta stop:bart


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## Swollen Liver (Jun 8, 2013)

Says the man who works with Heredia...


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## Kid Cubano (Jun 5, 2013)

The fact is; if you never tested positive you are clear for your legacy. As unfair as may look.
Personally I believe Pac has used PEDs at the time of his big jump from 122-150. The changes on his body were obvious but I can't prove shit.


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## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

ElKiller said:


> This shit's gotta stop:bart


bro, pacquiao was beating the shit out of that boy. marquez is very durable however. maybe youre right.


----------



## Trash Bags (May 17, 2013)

Kid Cubano said:


> The fact is; if you never tested positive you are clear for your legacy. As unfair as may look.
> Personally I believe Pac has used PEDs at the time of his big jump from 122-150. The changes on his body were obvious but I can't prove shit.


it's ridiculous. look at him now. he looks like a regular dude now. it's so obvious he was juicing.


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## SouthPaw (May 24, 2013)

I don't think Manny was juicing. He was just cutting enormous amounts of weight. He was essentially JCC jr below 126. He was huge and still had speed and power. Roach was asked if Manny would go to 135 after the DLH fight, and he said that Manny couldn't make the weight.


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## coldfire (Mar 5, 2015)

I want to see paulie interview Manny Pacquiao after Manny won the fight:smile


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

gander tasco said:


> He's not the monster he used to be because he's not 29 years old anymore . That's what happens with age and wear & tear. If anything pac has shown a steady natural decline as he's gotten older not like someone who would be juicing. He was already showing signs when he foguht Margo and Mosley.
> 
> I'm curious if Paulie has ever taken extra drug testing himself since hes such a cheerleader for it?


A steady natural decline from an unnatural incline. Must be great to be able to pick and choose when patterns are relevant and when they aren't.


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

hermit said:


> Because he didn't want to get blood drawn too close to the fight? Remember, it was only blood testing that he wanted stopped three weeks prior to the fight and said he would give blood immediately after. Urine samples were ANYTIME/ANY AMOUNT.


And urinalysis cannot effectively be used for all testing i.e. hGH


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

mrtony80 said:


> Sure.
> http://checkhookboxing.com/showthread.php?38946-Heartbroken-again


LOL.....that's some serious homotional shit right there. No need to dump that crap on a forum.


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## Doc (Jun 6, 2013)

Fuck Paulie


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

bjl12 said:


> I think there was a decline in his performance beginning with JMM 3. Steroid controversy was at the pinnacle then, as JMM requested OSDT but Manny's team rejected it. JMM would go on to embarrass Manny in that fight and "lose" a close split decision. Perhaps he became a "part-time" fighter, perhaps he discontinued PED's...the world will never know. I personally think the latter (PED discontinuation) was involved in some degree. Manny's volume punching and endurance are the biggest indicators for me. He went from throwing 1000+ punches a fight to the typical ~500-600. He was probably doping like Lance Armstrong - EPO.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


Yup. EPO and/or hGH were always my choice of PEDs for him. He was always strong and his physical frame has always indicated that for me. It's why I called him fighting Oscar when it was only being suggested.


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

Trash Bags said:


> There's a strong link between conditioning and ability. When you start getting tired, you start getting sloppy with your technique. You know that. Pacquiao was as fresh as can be for most of his fights north of 130. Against Morales and Marquez, below 130, you could actually see him get tired. A sustained beating can be worse than a knock out. Dig this: if it weren't for modern medical techniques, Margarito would be blind in one eye. There were also rumors that Margarito hadnt trained properly for that fight. People underestimate the power of peds. They change your life. They transform you. They motivate, they make you stronger, sharper. They enhance you in almost every way imaginable if done right.


In defense of Pac here, i thinks its pretty well documented the dude was cutting massive weight for a very long time. That has a huge impact on a person output and could surely explain why he was getting tired and even KO'd.


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> Salido is still a little chinny, but he recovers well.
> 
> and I buy the draining reasoning for Manny since he'd cut like 17 pounds at 130, but still. The difference between the power of Morales at 130 and Margartio at 150 should be significant.
> 
> I doubt Chavez Jr's chin would be better at light heavyweight or that Rios could stand up to punchers at middleweight


Your brain is actually more susceptible to getting put on queer street when you are dehydrated. The fluids that surround teh brain and help absorb impact forces are less when one is dehydrated. That makes getting KO'd a much more likely event than if the athlete is fully hydrated or even more hydrated than he was. Studies show that even 1% less than the optimal amount of water in the body has significant impact on the athletes outputs i.e. punching power, endurance


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## tommygun711 (Jun 4, 2013)

bballchump11 said:


> that's not it. Paulie has been staying very consistent from back in 2009


Remember when paulie said pac would be the best fighter of all time if he beat cotto? Hes done a complete 360 from those statements


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Well I personally believe most top boxers are using some form of PED whether it be for recovery, stamina, injury, weight making etc but I think stylistically you get more answers than blaming drugs for the most parts. Maybes one day boxing will get itself together to sort this problem out but under current rules I just don't see it as a possibility - not just testing but because drug firms are so far ahead of commissions and there are ready made excuses with protein shakes and all that bollocks.
> 
> Ultimately a fighter is only good as he is technically though and then its how much work they put into themselves at the gym, they can get boosts but generally I dont think any athlete is using HGH or other steroids for mass and power because it will likely slow them down and speed is probably a better asset than power in most cases.
> 
> ...


The purported great thing about hGH is that you don't really increase in mass as it is a mild anabolic. But, it does something no other PED can do and that is split muscle cells into two new separate cells. This is why using hGH isn't such a far fetch as one could not even notice much of a mass/weight change while making themselves stronger by having more muscle cells (engines) in almost the same amount of space as was previously. This isn't even touching on the recovery aspects of hGH in the human body.


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## Zopilote (Jun 5, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Remember when paulie said pac would be the best fighter of all time if he beat cotto? Hes done a complete 360 from those statements


You mean a 180


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## browsing (Jun 9, 2013)

tommygun711 said:


> Remember when paulie said pac would be the best fighter of all time if he beat cotto? Hes done a complete 360 from those statements





Zopilote said:


> You mean a 180


:lol:

I remember that interview, Paulie didn't say he'd be 'the best fighter of all time' if he beat Cotto.

and it probably took that fight for him the realize that Pacquaio was on the juice in all honesty.


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## Dillyyo (Jun 5, 2013)

Chatty said:


> Roninson, Ali, Ezzard, Duran, leonard, Hearns, Chavez etc all didn't look as good later into their careers - how do we know all of those weren't on PED's


The difference is that almost all other boxers had a pretty linear line in rate of degradation of their abilities as they aged. For Pac he seems to have a huge peak in the middle of his career and I don't know of another fighter in history who has that trend.


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## Them Bones (Jul 13, 2013)

Zopilote said:


> You mean a 180


:lol:

Paulie does 180's on a daily basis. He sure likes to contradict himself.


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## DobyZhee (May 19, 2013)

Fuck Paulie, he only swishes he made 1 percent of what Pac makes tonight


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