Last Images of Lisanne Froon & Kris Kremers - 2 girls lost hiking in Panama

Haggis

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May 16, 2013
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#82
It's pretty retarded to get so lost that you end up dying on a 3 mile walk. You don't need to be Ray Mears to see that.
:lol:

Three miles is plenty to get completely lost and die in proper bush. You can get turned around and completely lost within 100 yards of a track in thick forest, and never find it again. The foolish part was being unprepared (compass, local knowledge etc.) But once they went out there without the tools they needed if something went wrong, they would have followed a poorly-marked "trail" that wasn't a trail, then it petered out and they were lost and one of them got injured and they died. But yeah, 3 miles - if it's proper wild country and you're lost in it, 3 miles is a loooooong way.

:hat
 

Haggis

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#83
Wonder what the decision was to go off the track for these ladies?
If I had to bet - at some point they started following an animal trail that they thought was the path. They were in a remote part of the world. I don't know how easy it is to get lost in the forest in Europe, but in New Zealand it's worrying. People get lost all the time here, and a lot of them die.

:hat
 

thehook13

‪#‎Pray4Khan‬
May 16, 2013
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#84
If I had to bet - at some point they started following an animal trail that they thought was the path. They were in a remote part of the world. I don't know how easy it is to get lost in the forest in Europe, but in New Zealand it's worrying. People get lost all the time here, and a lot of them die.

:hat
Damn straight it is, I did a few tramps early this year. Never got lost but how easy it would be for some numpty. The kinds of people attempting 1 day 10k hikes up and down mountains or a multi day trek through fiordlands defies belief. Wearing the shittest footwear, no jacket, small bottle of wear to save weight but a giant ass camera and lense hanging off their neck. Probably no map or research on the track. These are the touristy tracks, god forbid they go off the beaten track.
 

Haggis

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#85
Damn straight it is, I did a few tramps early this year. Never got lost but how easy it would be for some numpty. The kinds of people attempting 1 day 10k hikes up and down mountains or a multi day trek through fiordlands defies belief. Wearing the shittest footwear, no jacket, small bottle of wear to save weight but a giant ass camera and lense hanging off their neck. Probably no map or research on the track. These are the touristy tracks, god forbid they go off the beaten track.
Finding the good gold involves getting to remote rivers in the rainforests and mountains in the South Island, and that is scary as fuck. I am only ever there with a mate of mine who knows the place like the back of his hand, and I wouldn't be getting any gold without him. No fucking way. Walking up and down slippery wet hills carrying heavy shit, if I took a fall and was by myself I could very easily be done for. Break a leg or even roll an ankle, nobody's around for miles and you couldn't even find the muddy little unmarked track you were on (or climb back up to it) even without a busted leg? Could I die like that in New Zealand? Any one of us could die like that a few hundred metres away from our cars, just from putting a foot wrong in the bush. Even without an injury. You get lost out there, you're going to stay lost.

:hat
 

Lunny

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May 31, 2012
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#86
:lol:

Three miles is plenty to get completely lost and die in proper bush. You can get turned around and completely lost within 100 yards of a track in thick forest, and never find it again. The foolish part was being unprepared (compass, local knowledge etc.) But once they went out there without the tools they needed if something went wrong, they would have followed a poorly-marked "trail" that wasn't a trail, then it petered out and they were lost and one of them got injured and they died. But yeah, 3 miles - if it's proper wild country and you're lost in it, 3 miles is a loooooong way.

:hat
That's exactly what I mean. You've got to be prepared. It shouldn't be that hard to either prepare yourself for a 3 mile walk or figure out you're not prepared enough to go in the jungle. It's just plain stupid.
 
Jul 9, 2012
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#92
Would it be that hard to walk three miles in a straight-ish line?
In a jungle? Of course it would, you can only walk the way the track dictates.

You wouldn't know you'd travelled 3 miles anyway. You'd have to just judge it by how long you've been travelling but you'd be moving much more slowly.
 
Jun 4, 2013
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#93
I still dont get why females go on these stupid trips, they arent smart or strong enough to survive and risk getting raped, I know they want to be independant etc and explore the world but theres safer ways
Regretfully this is accurate. Why do white females think they can do shit like this and feel as safe as they do down Oxford Street high road?

Obviously what has happened is a native got randy. Raped and killed them. Or an animal attack.

Even an idiot would leave a memoir on paper or on their phone if lost. Its an attack nothing more or less. If I was stuck in the jungle of course I would video message myself or some similar crap.

Tune in next week when Jessica X visits the slums of Brazil and suddenly goes missing......
 
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Haggis

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#94


In that kind of wilderness? You could go 20m the wrong way and get turned around and never get out.

:hat
 
May 9, 2014
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#95
If I had to bet - at some point they started following an animal trail that they thought was the path. They were in a remote part of the world. I don't know how easy it is to get lost in the forest in Europe, but in New Zealand it's worrying. People get lost all the time here, and a lot of them die.

:hat
You raise a good point, over here no such nature exists, we have some forest but the landscape is mostly flat and all the routes in forest areas are marked with colored poles that show you are on the trail. You can throw a rock and hit a road over here so you can get lost but not like that, the nature is not so dense that you make the mistake of going in circles
 

dftaylor

Along came a spider
Jun 4, 2012
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#98
Regretfully this is accurate. Why do white females think they can do shit like this and feel as safe as they do down Oxford Street high road?

Obviously what has happened is a native got randy. Raped and killed them. Or an animal attack.

Even an idiot would leave a memoir on paper or on their phone if lost. Its an attack nothing more or less. If I was stuck in the jungle of course I would video message myself or some similar crap.

Tune in next week when Jessica X visits the slums of Brazil and suddenly goes missing......
Yeah, never happens to guys. Never.
 
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Haggis

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You raise a good point, over here no such nature exists, we have some forest but the landscape is mostly flat and all the routes in forest areas are marked with colored poles that show you are on the trail. You can throw a rock and hit a road over here so you can get lost but not like that, the nature is not so dense that you make the mistake of going in circles
Yeah I have heard that from Europeans. I was hanging out with a Finn and I took her to the forest, and she was freaked out even though she grew up in forests. Because you guys have spent centuries taming and organizing your forests, and we haven't. In that part of the country, they're basically exactly the same as they were when the first Europeans showed up. You have to go in prepared that if it storms and a tree gets hit by lightning and blocks the narrow muddy track that you're driving on and you can't move it, then you might be stuck there for a few days until somebody happens along.

:hat
 

Duo

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Jun 14, 2012
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Things have clearly gone wrong by now. Kremers has mud on her right calf, left side of her shorts, and her left palm looks far more red in the sunlight than is indicated in other pictures of her showing her palms, as if she'd landed on it hard or scraped it catching herself on the pratfall which muddied up her shorts and right leg. A river is not a trail. They may have been observing survival orthodoxy by trying to follow it for a quick return to civilization, but as has been pointed out, aiming for a high ground return to the top of the divide for cell phone reception is the modern tactic for getting rescued. (She is facing upriver, but what little is seen in that direction doesn't look negotiable.) Should they have already been sending out distress calls by now, or did they still think they were a brief hike away from human habitation? Is that left hand injured, and if so, how seriously? 1 April 2014:




Did a slip, fall and injury cripple one or both of them? Fractured metatarsals found inside this shoe and sock reveal such an injury:




As a kid, I only hiked outdoors alone when it was sunny, and took along a little leather covered magnifying glass for looking at things. If things ever went bad, that magnifier could be used to ignite dry tinder on an exposed rock for producing visible smoke and fire. I never had to use it that way, but fire can provide survival and a rescue beacon where a cell phone failed for these girls. Thanks to Cub Scouts, we boys also knew how to use a compass at age 8. Our parents let us into the woods alone. Our fathers and grandfathers knew how to use compasses too. Once they knew we also knew, they were confident in the "Always be prepared" slogan of scouting, and no preteen scouts ever got lost in the woods of Central New England where I was growing up. (Most of us actually didn't like scouting, but decades later we agreed we actually learned a few skills of value during our brief time doing that, while public school served no purpose whatever except as day care incarceration and containment, completely worthless to us rural boys.)

Were they actually lost? My experience with hikers who fall is that it triggers a repeat pattern which can quickly result in injury, as they become conscious then concerned about not doing it again, subliminally focusing them on what they're trying to avoid instead of what they want to achieve. (For example, "I will NOT hit the golf ball into the water trap again!" will continually send that golf ball into the drink, while concentrating on hitting down the fairway is far more productive. Worrying about hitting your fingers while hammering a nail will put your fingers at risk, while ignoring your fingers to zero in on the nail head works. Ditto for dealing with baseball pitches or tennis serves by fixating on the ball seams.)

Kris Kremers may have fallen more than the one time indicated by that first image, especially if she was already somewhat injured when that picture was taken. There would have been no question of Lisanne Froon abandoning her best friend and roommate in that jungle in that situation, and this image of the back of Kris's head shows they were still together a week later at 3:56 AM on 8 April 2014:



So what may have happened? I suspect the heroic way Rob Hall died on Everest in refusing to abandon the suicidally summit feverish Doug Hansen until Hansen died, by which time it was too late for Hall to save himself (on 11 May 1996) might also reveal something about Lisanne Froon's fate. Staying together, even with Kremers injured and dying, is safer for both than separating, and Froon's not about to consider abandoning her friend anyway. When she leaves, it's not until after there's clearly no hope for Kris, when Lisanne takes her denim shorts for zipping up and neatly folding on a rock as later found.

The right side of that image of the back of Kremers' head covered over by the photograph on top reportedly shows it matted with blood (hence the cropping as it is). Froon was a college athlete with better coordination, and we know from the first image I re-posted that Kremers had already fallen a couple hours before any distress calls were attempted.

After over a week, Lisanne would have been severely depleted by the time she had no choice but to leave her friend and proceed alone. She survives long enough to zip up and leave those shorts of Kris on that rock as a signal, but then has that long fall which fractures all the metatarsals of her left foot. Even if that was her only injury, that finishes her after over a week in the jungle. They didn't have fire, so for survival of over a week, they had to have drunk water which was not distilled. That could mean Giardia kicked in after a couple days, or maybe amoebic dysentery. (Soaking one's own clothes in fresh rainfall and drinking from that might be safer than using running river water, but it wasn't raining at first, sunny, and that's why they headed out.) Starvation, infection and exposure would have really messed up Froon by then, even if Lisanne was never injured until the fall which fractured her left foot.
 
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