Boxing Scoring FAQ and Discussion

#41
Yeah, round 9 of Gatti - Ward doesn't really fit the mild as Ward was hurt himself as mentioned
I think given the fact that Gatti looked on the verge of collapse at two separate points, including the final 40 seconds or so, after getting his clock cleaned early and dropped by a body-shot, means that 10-7 is within the boundaries of reason. Still, I called it 10-8. Gatti did hurt Ward, after all.

Round 15 of Chacon-Limon IV is by far a better example of a 10-7 round with only one kd, though. The round could have been 10-8 anyway, since Chacon was dominant. The kd was just the proverbial icing on the cake.
 
Jun 8, 2012
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#42
Something that I was thinking as I was watching the introductions last night of the fight from brooklyn:

The rules of boxing appear on screen and you see "only the referee can stop the bout" or as I saw last night "only the referee or the doctor can stop the fight". Obviously this isn't entirely true a corner always has the power to stop the fight and pull their guy out at anytime? Who else would have been able to stop a fight in the past that this rule came into being?

If a doctor tells a referee inbetween rounds that a fighter is in no condition to continue due to a cut or whatever is the referee always obliged to stop the fight?
 

Juiceboxbiotch

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#43
Something that I was thinking as I was watching the introductions last night of the fight from brooklyn:

The rules of boxing appear on screen and you see "only the referee can stop the bout" or as I saw last night "only the referee or the doctor can stop the fight". Obviously this isn't entirely true a corner always has the power to stop the fight and pull their guy out at anytime? Who else would have been able to stop a fight in the past that this rule came into being?

If a doctor tells a referee inbetween rounds that a fighter is in no condition to continue due to a cut or whatever is the referee always obliged to stop the fight?
In these commissions, you will also hear in the announcements after fights "On the advice of the corner, the referree stops the fight..." and "On the advice of the ring doctor, the referee stops the fight..." I believe that in the commissions where only the referee can stop the fight, yes, he can overrule the doctor. But they will normally just follow the advice of the doctor since that is what he is there for. I'm sure someone can find an example of a ref overruling the ring side physician :lol:
 
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Rob

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#44
my issue with a 10-8 round without a knockdown is that it takes away from the credit you should give to a guy for staying on there feet. not losing that point is the incentive for that fighter. if the fighters know judges are going to score 10-8 rounds you will see them taking knees all the time.
 

Juiceboxbiotch

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#45
my issue with a 10-8 round without a knockdown is that it takes away from the credit you should give to a guy for staying on there feet. not losing that point is the incentive for that fighter. if the fighters know judges are going to score 10-8 rounds you will see them taking knees all the time.
But that coin has 2 sides. If a fighter dominated a round so thoroughly that he deserves an extra point, aren't you taking away his credit in stead? It could be argued that it serves as incentive to really do a good job dominating the round. I'm ok with the occasional 10-8 with no knockdown.
 
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Rob

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#46
But that coin has 2 sides. If a fighter dominated a round so thoroughly that he deserves an extra point, aren't you taking away his credit in stead? It could be argued that it serves as incentive to really do a good job dominating the round. I'm ok with the occasional 10-8 with no knockdown.
So what happens if a fighter dominates a round and scores a knockdown. Do you score it 10-7?
 
Jun 6, 2013
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#47
QUOTE:


"Clean Punching - Punches landed cleanly in the legal scoring area of the other fighter on the knuckle part of the glove. Punches landed to the back of the head, the rear torso, or below the beltline are not legal. "Slapping" or "Backhanded" punches are not legal, and glancing or partially blocked punches should not be counted in scoring."


- So punching your opponents arms, shoulders, or gloves counts? These are all legal areas.

IMO, the first two SHOULD count, as they wear your opponent down, but most people I know do NOT count them. Refence reaction to the recent Pauilie - Broner fight.

No one should count hitting the gloves, yet that would be the strict interpretation of that rule.

Another problem: We all know you can't hit behind the head or body, but were exactly does the "behind" part start? (Let's ask David Price!)

-----------

But anyway, I'm pretty sure these rules are from the MDQ. They are not the official rules of any of the governing bodies, which can make any changes, additions, or omissions they want to. Sadly, the official rules of most governing bodies are purposely vague. IMO this is done to make it easier to deliver BS decisions.

 
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Jun 4, 2013
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#48
Ok. Do you guys sometimes find yourselves scoring a round for or against a fighter based on how it compares to a previous round or rounds?

For instance, Piston Honda was being beat to the punch by Soda Popinski, outlanded with power shots and in general for the 1st 4 rounds of a fight. But in round 5, he fights fairly evenly, but manages to absorb slightly more punishment despite his best effort. How much more inclined, if at all, would you be to give Honda the round?

I've noticed just that in many fights, and even some RBRs, people are willing to even things up a bit.
 
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Juiceboxbiotch

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#49
So what happens if a fighter dominates a round and scores a knockdown. Do you score it 10-7?
According to the Association of Boxing Commissions Judging Certification Handbook (located here):
http://www.abcboxing.com/documents/abcboxing_officials_certification_program.htm

A 10/7 round should only be scored when there are two knockdowns in the round. There were some examples provided in this very thread of judges scoring 10-7 in rounds where there were only a single knockdown, but it is my opinion that those judges actually got it wrong and should have scored the rounds 10-8 according to the rules. Round 9 of Gatti vs. Ward and round 15 of Chacon vs. Limon were the examples given here. Here is an excerpt of the handbook, I've up-fonted the part relevant to your question.

VIII. SCORING CRITERIA
The Ten-point must system shall be in effect. The winner of the round will receive ten points and the loser will receive nine points or less (minus any point deductions).
· 10/9 From a “close” to “moderate” margin
· 10/8 EXTREMELY DECISIVE (without a knockdown)
· 10/8 One knockdown
· 10/7 Two knockdowns
· 10/6 More than (2) two knockdowns
· 10/10 Cannot pick a winner (very rare)


IX. POINT DEDUCTION SCORING
When the referee declares a foul and deducts point(s), the judge must write the amount of the deduction on his scorecard at that moment. Should the referee take additional points the judge must draw a line through his original deduction and put the new amount of point deductions. He must initial the corrected amount. Only the referee can declare point deductions for fouls.

X. SCORING KNOCKDOWNS
A judge can only score a knockdown when the referee declares one.
· In most cases two (2) points may be awarded for the first knockdown in a round, for either fighter, one (1) pointthereafter for each additional knockdown. However, in rare cases, good discretion must be used and a judge may award only one (1) point in cases where the boxer who suffered the knockdown clearly dominated the round.
· The ABC recommends that a round should never be scored less than 10/6 regardless the number of knockdowns (minus any point deductions).

XI. EVEN ROUNDS
There are even rounds, however they are VERY rare. A judge that scores multiple even rounds displays a lack of concentration and the inability of making a decision.
I'm going to add the link to the ABC Judges Certification Handbook in the original post. It's got a lot of good info.
 
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Juiceboxbiotch

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#50
QUOTE:


"Clean Punching - Punches landed cleanly in the legal scoring area of the other fighter on the knuckle part of the glove. Punches landed to the back of the head, the rear torso, or below the beltline are not legal. "Slapping" or "Backhanded" punches are not legal, and glancing or partially blocked punches should not be counted in scoring."


- So punching your opponents arms, shoulders, or gloves counts? These are all legal areas.

Just because it is legal to hit your opponent in those places, doesn't mean the blows are scored. It just means the blows aren't considered fouls. You actually answered your own question with the part in red.


IMO, the first two SHOULD count, as they wear your opponent down, but most people I know do NOT count them. Refence reaction to the recent Pauilie - Broner fight.

Just because they aren't scored, doesn't mean they don't count. A prime example of this basic concept of boxing scoring is that you don't "score" a knockout on the cards, but it sure counts.


No one should count hitting the gloves, yet that would be the strict interpretation of that rule.

Refer to the part in red above.


Another problem: We all know you can't hit behind the head or body, but were exactly does the "behind" part start? (Let's ask David Price!)


Here is another excerpt from the ABC Judges Certification Handbook detailing the scoring zone, which as you can see, includes the shoulders, as you mentioned:
III. SCORING ZONE
Every judge should be aware of the scoring zone. The method for establishing the scoring zone starts at the top center of the head, with an imaginary line continuing down the sides of the head through the ears, down to and including the shoulders to the naval and hipbones. Caution should be taken in using the beltline, due to boxers keeping the trunks high above the navel. Any punch delivered outside of the scoring zone should not be considered when scoring the bout.
The test to measure the awarding of points for “offensive boxing” should be the number of direct, clean punches delivered with the knuckle part of the closed glove on any part of the scoring zone of the opponent’s body above the belt line. The judges should also consider the effect of blows received versus the number of punches delivered. Punches that are blocked or deflected should not be considered in tabulating your score. Blocked or deflected punches that land foul are not to be considered fouls in the awarding of points at the end of the round.
In most cases the arms are considered defensive weapons. However, judges must take into consideration the shoulders of a boxer as being in the scoring zone.


But anyway, I'm pretty sure these rules are from the MDQ. They are not the official rules of any of the governing bodies, which ca make any chances, additions, or omissions they want to. Sadly, the official rules of most governing bodies are purposely vague. IMO this is done to make it easier to deliver BS decisions.
Fair points. :cheers
 
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Jun 6, 2013
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#51

Just because it is legal to hit your opponent in those places, doesn't mean the blows are scored. It just means the blows aren't considered fouls. You actually answered your own question with the part in red.
Of course I did. - That was my point!


Here is another excerpt from the ABC Judges Certification Handbook detailing the scoring zone, which as you can see, includes the shoulders, as you mentioned:
Excellent! Thanks for posting this. This is exactly the same as the rules in the Ams.
- But Two important questions:

1: Is there a copy of this handbook, available online? I've never seen it. I've never even seen it mentioned.

2: Do any of the boxing organizations actually claim to follow these rules? (I mean, who exactly is the "ABC?" What power do they have, vs an Arum or a Haymon?) My guess is no, and that's the main problem. None of the powers-that-be want clear rules, because that makes it harder to get away with robberies.

But note all the (purposeful?) ambiguities, even here:

"In most cases the arms are considered defensive weapons. However, judges must take into consideration the shoulders of a boxer as being in the scoring zone."

- Judges MAY? WTF does that mean. It either counts or it doesn't. - IMO it does, since it wears down the opponents power just like body shots do.


"The test to measure the awarding of points for “offensive boxing” should be the number of direct, clean punches delivered …"
- Fine, but they don't define what a "clean" punch is. How hard would that be?

Also, an indirect blow to the chin doesn't count? So if I throw an OH right at you, and you partially block it with your glove, but it continues on to your chin and I KYTFO, it doesn't count? That's the strict interpretation of what is written there.
--------------------------------

NOTE:

According to these rules, which again may not actually be in force during any pro bout:

1: David Price was not KO'd by Thompson.

2: Vitlai Klitschko should never, ever win by decision, since few of his punches land with the knuckle part of the glove.

3: Paulie scored a shitload more punches than Broner did. Some fans claim that many of Paulie's shots hit Broners shoulders.

Well, YEAH: quote: "Also note, they allow for points when you hit your opponent's shoulder…"

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And this is why scoring is such a mess. Even if (and I laugh as I type this) the ref & judges were actually trying to follow the ABC's rules, there are massive ambiguities built-into those rules.
 
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Rob

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#53
[MENTION=1702]Juiceboxbiotch[/MENTION]

Do any of the 4 categories take precident? Is there an order?
 
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#55
The guy in my avatar, Kid Galahad, was KD'd in the 1st round vs Jason Booth. He was clearly winning the round until a flash KD right at the end of the round & then went on to dominate the fight & by a wide margin.

2 judges scored the fight 118-110 & 118-111 but the 3rd judge (Ian John Lewis) scored the fight 120-109. I assume he scored the 1st 10-10 but Galahad was awarded 10 points for all 12 rounds despite being KD'd (it was a legitimate KD) at the end of a round he had decisively won prior to the KD.

:think
 

Juiceboxbiotch

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#56
The guy in my avatar, Kid Galahad, was KD'd in the 1st round vs Jason Booth. He was clearly winning the round until a flash KD right at the end of the round & then went on to dominate the fight & by a wide margin.

2 judges scored the fight 118-110 & 118-111 but the 3rd judge (Ian John Lewis) scored the fight 120-109. I assume he scored the 1st 10-10 but Galahad was awarded 10 points for all 12 rounds despite being KD'd (it was a legitimate KD) at the end of a round he had decisively won prior to the KD.

:think
The question is answered in the FAQ on the main post... but the way you describe it it sounds like Ian John Lewis blew the score for the first round. It should have been 10-9 for Booth. Judges are human and they do make mistakes from time to time. It's pretty unacceptable for someone who isn't familiar with the rules to be judging a pro fight, but it happens all over the world. It's one of the main problems our sport has.
 
#59
What constitutes earning a point back after a knockdown or deduction?


Is it merely winning the round despite the knockdown or foul deduction

or is it dominating the round?

Also what qualifies as a 10-8 minus a knockdown or deduction?

Ive only done this one time and it was one of the early rounds in Ortiz vs Berto where Berto was wobbly the whole round and spent most of the time on the ropes eating leather and hardly got off anything

I scored it 10-8 for the shape Berto was in, the power and quality plus volume of Ortiz shots against the absence of any significance